It’s been a while since the last check in at the LwL virtual coffeehouse.
Normally, I’d kick things off with a topic for conversation, but this time, I’m just going to leave the discussion completely open.
Chat to your hearts’ content!
Here’s a cat contemplating his caffeine addiction.
I read someone talk about the “limmy awards” in other chat. I’m afraid I need to nominate myself for most spectacular relapse. No specific conversation details for you, but I recognize that my LE is an EA now. I’m not sure that my LO does.
I won’t be here again today until late. But I am interested in more perspective on what takes an LE into EA territory when it comes to the LO’s behavior.
I’m interested in how you made the distinction.
I’ve said things to my LO that I would never want my SO to know about, even before NC. It already was an EA then. I think my LO may be a party to multiple EA’s but other partners to those EA’s put up boundaries to end the EA, while I have done the opposite.
To Sapiens:
Oh, dear. I don’t have any insight on this. I must be one of the few here who is single, and my LO is also single.
Whatever I have had going on with LO would probably have been classified as EA, but I don’t know for sure, and it doesn’t matter anyway in my case.
On a lighter note, I think L.E. has to nominate you for that award.
I am angling for the Most Relapses In A Single Year award.
Go to the “Search the Site” box and type in “Emotional Affair.” It will return a bunch of hits.
Hi Norma,
Funny. I thought it was 50-50 but it’s not like I am keeping a database on this blog… No seriously, no DB, I just had that feeling. More new people who post are married and in more distress but I thought the ones who post the most regular besides Adam are mostly single. 🤷 There must be a survey in the archive somewhere. Curious but not enough to find out other than being spoon feed the info.
ND,
Because of the US Government shutdown, future funding for the Limerent Emeritus Foundation for Wayward Limerents is uncertain.
The Foundation, which has oversight of The Limmys, has decided to allow self-nomination for The Limmys. However, there is a $100 USD “processing fee” for each category under which the applicant wants to be considered.
To L.E.:
Well, I am blaming Trump for this one.
Hi Sapiens,
One more clarification, please.
It’s unclear to me if you are still NC but realized on reflection that the LE (for you at least) had really moved into an EA?
OR
You are no longer NC and the LE (again for you at least) has now moved into an EA? Thanks.
Not in NC anymore. I went into NC because I learned the term limerence while researching the line btw friendship and emotional affair several months ago. But NC stopped recently. I reached out first and the response was immediate. LO had missed me. Then LO reached out again, in the old pattern.
My LO knows how I feel, and that I’m not sure what I would do if LO made a move. All the power is in LO’s hands now. But… LO isn’t going to make a move.
When I am high on feels, I misread signals like crazy. “I missed you” becomes something much bigger than it really is. “I’m not sure I want a traditional relationship” becomes …open to non-traditional arrangement . But then, when I’m “sober” I see the truth in the words – LO is telling me it’s good that I don’t want to leave my SO because LO doesn’t want that from me anyway. LO is preoccupied with some other married friend who stopped texting even longer than I did. Then I think – how much more pathetic could I be?
I had the dim-witted idea that I would tell LO that the other married friend has put up defenses against an emotional affair, unlike me… I’d have phrased it softly and without blame. I instigated and LO barely reciprocated – except for expressing appreciation for the praise. And coming back for more – contacting me again and again. And missing it when it was gone. And telling me…
Sapiens means wise. Isn’t that funny now, in a way? At least I can laugh at myself as I get through each day, feeling pathetic.
Hi Sapiens,
I know you have a SO, you don’t want to leave the SO ( honestly you give mixed signals), you feel pathetic. Of course, you’re not pathetic. We may act pathetically, but we’re not pathetic. But what is making you feel pathetic in the LE situation, your feeling controlled by the LO, shame of the LE given you have a SO? Also can you describe your relationship with your SO?
What’s making me feel pathetic is that my LO is asking me to interpret the behavior of another married friend – could this one have the same feelings as I have? That is jealousy.
SO is a better life partner for me than LO ever could be. We aren’t physically affectionate outside the bedroom, but we are aligned on what we care about in life. And, I know this happens to others in LE’s, sex has been better – better than it’s been for 10 years – since I became so hot for my LO. My fantasy has an outlet, and SO is enjoying that, too. And yet it has not satisfied what is in my mind. A part of me just wants so badly to have someone new while my body is still good – in my prime. LO is my first choice in spite of big obstacles (mostly distance). I have been working with a therapist about this underlying issue.
„My LO knows how I feel, and that I’m not sure what I would do if LO made a move.“
Sorry not to have read every post- so you disclosed to her, or do you just assume she knows?
If you disclosed and she doesn’t reciprocate, but tells you stuff like „I missed you“just like that, I dislike that in her, I have to say. She should be more careful with the feelings you put into her hands, so to say.
I can absolutely relate to this
„ When I am high on feels, I misread signals like crazy.“
I remember misreading a text from LO2, my limerent mind changing a word to something like disclosure, and how I was so excited and exhilarated, until I (fortunately) read it again before answering and realized the real wording.
So stupid.
Before NC, my disclosure was just, when we meet next year, I know I am going to be very attracted to you. I know I am not innocent, but this was in response to LO’s direct question to me about what I find attractive during a flirty late night chat, after 6 months of such texting. My answer was: you! (More words.)
When I broke NC earlier this month, I made a much deeper disclosure about wanting to be with LO, in some way, even though I would not leave SO. This was after LO told me LO missed me, and LO was wondering if the NC was because there was something wrong with LO. LO even asked me this during the NC. During NC I just responded that there was nothing to improve. (It was not strict NC because I didn’t want to “be a dick.” I limited responses to one line texts on a 24-hour delay and no follow up.)
Hi Sapiens,
Sounds to me like disclosure or heavy flirting from your side and non-committing stuff that could be „friendship only“ from her side?
Were there answers to your very direct statements? I guess no, or more non-committing stuff.
She likes the attention, or she‘s politely evading your flirting because she appreciates you as a friend, either way I would stop right there.
You say you don’t want to leave SO, so maybe it’s a good thing LO isn’t reacting much on the disclosure, because it all sounds very risky to me.
Sorry if I‘m wrong but it sounds like if she would play along, you would be head over heels in a PA. I would think hard about if you really want that and if not, then maybe not leave it to her and fate, but decide yourself that you don’t want it?
Maybe I misjudge here completely, since I haven’t read all of your posts.
One can be swept away by the current of a text conversation and the heady stuff of „winning“ (getting reciprocation), but never lose the consequences out of sight.
Maybe I’m too gloomy today since weather is gloomy and I‘ve got a headache, so I do apologize if I sound way too alarmed and assuming.
To Mila and Sapiens:
Mila’s thoughts and conclusions to your situation are my own too. I’m a big believer of seeing things in a different perspective to gain insights. How would you feel if your SO filed for divorce tomorrow for whatever reason? Relieved by the freedom of a second chance at life OR going out of your mind to save your life partner, realizing you took her for granted during your LE? I don’t know the answer from what you’ve written.
Lastly, I think you have created ( it’s what the mind does and all limerents do. I did it so often.) this story where you have no control, it’s all in the hands of the LO, the SO is actually loving the increased sexual passion from you. So far so good and as Mila already said but I’ll say differently, it ain’t going to last. At least not very likely to.
Mila, I think you have me and my LE all figured out. Add to that: LO has not been lucky in love. SO is significantly better looking than LO – though LO is in better shape. I overlook that because I have wanted LO for so long. I think that LO knows this and doesn’t trust me to really act if there is an opportunity. Especially after my NC.
LO and I are both needy people who have an unhealthy interaction to get something missing from our daily life. There is a big obstacle to action, too, and that has made the flirtation safe. But I made it much less safe (for myself) in the past month.
To me, an EA is … let’s say you work together. You exchange numbers. Start texting. It gets quite personal. You share a lot. You’re texting daily. Multiple times a day. Maybe all day. Maybe it gets really flirty, really sexual. Essentially, what you would share and experience with your partner … that energy is going toward someone else. You’re each others’ go-to person if something goes wrong in your life. You’re leaning quite heavily on them and they on you. But it’s not physical.
That describes my interaction. Except it’s not multiple times a day. It’s more like 1-2 hour blocks, late at night. Over the summer, pre-NC, it was sometimes both nights of the weekend even when my SO was at home. It felt like dating by text. It was exhilarating.
But LO also asks me for advice on handling other “friendships” with married “friends” who stopped contact with LO abruptly. Hence my hypothesis about multiple EA’s. I wonder what drives LO to favor deepening friendships with friends who are already married.
Sapiens,
I would consider it, at least on your end, an EA.
I don’t know on her end. She could consider all of these guys friends. I was very naive before. I thought men could be close friends with a woman like a woman would be with her female friends. I think some can, but it’s rare.
” I wonder what drives LO to favor deepening friendships with friends who are already married.”
Attention. A built-in barrier so she doesn’t have to go “all in” or do more. They’re providing her with male energy while she waits for an available guy to show up ? Idk.
When I had my last big LO, I had some close guy friends. LO provided the … well … attraction jolt. The excitement. They provided me the support. But that’s me. (Yes, they knew about my feelings for my LO. I went to them for advice.)
“I wonder what drives LO to favor deepening friendships with friends who are already married.”
She probably knew you were with your SO during the weekend evening texting sessions (?)
You used the term in your own experience:- exhilaration; both exciting and illicit.
This and/or validation seeking due to insecurities (as in seeking your advice).
I think you maybe already know the answer to the question you posed here.
And maybe it would be better to focus on your own reflections of the reasons why you were secretly texting your LO for 1-2 hours on a weekend night with your SO sitting next to you.
I am not being judgemental in asking this. It’s just to try to help. I also have had to ask myself similar questions, but maybe not in this same scenario.
Hello Sapiens. Does look like an EA to me.
“I wonder what drives LO to favor deepening friendships with friends who are already married”.
With my LO, texting is minimal, and the meetings are also occasional.
I guess both of us are aware of the barriers, so that is probably why real and virtual contact is low.
Hi Sapiens,
If we take moralising out of the picture and just look at the psychology – there is undeniably a special type of thrill that can be got by doing something illicit, like the texting of your LO for 2 hour blocks on weekend nights. That same thrill can’t be replicated with an SO because it isn’t illicit.
The crashes that followed my similar ‘thrill seeking’ efforts were always spectacular. You’ve got to weigh the two up. There is no doubt it is difficult to nip this sort of ‘response to temptation’ behaviour in the bud (I really know it – I did off the charts bad things, like once spending the evening of Christmas day texting my LO for hours). But it can’t sustain for too long with an SO in the picture … and I think you know it. I wish you good luck with your renewed NC efforts.
This is how it happened for me. LO and I were coworkers of a sort and think it developed into an EA for a time. He got my number and began the texting but I continued it. I would text him late at night after my shift ended, usually to complain about something work related. Then he would respond in the mornings while he was rounding. I would be half asleep in the mornings waiting for his texts or he would call me while he was driving to his office after rounds. We had a lot of work conversations that turned personal quite often. Nothing sexual but usually personal. A friend/coworker we shared in common once called him on how much we texted and talked to each other and asked him if his wife knew about it. He didn’t have an answer for her.
Thank you to all who responded to my message yesterday. As I mentioned in my last response (to Hamlet), I am having trouble with reading too much into my LO’s messages. That indicates that there is a huge asymmetry in the EA – if it is one at all.
I think I will start NC again this week. This time LO will know why and probably will not contact me to find out what happened or if LO did something to upset me. It should be easier, in a way, for both of us.
In my opinion, the feelings have to be reciprocal and acted on in some fashion. An oblivious LO is not an EA.
„In my opinion, the feelings have to be reciprocal and acted on in some fashion.“
I also think that the word „affair“ implies that both are emotionally involved in the same way (in the way Marcia describes). If only one side is that much involved and the other one sees it only as friendship, can you still call it an EA? I genuinely don’t know , because the other side could be emotionally involved as much as the one who is aware of it, but not admit it to themselves.
Still, since this latter is something one can only guess at (and limerent guessing will always be biased and not objective), I’d say it‘s only an EA if both sides recognize that it‘s an EA.
I had this kind of friendship (texting for hours, text contact every day etc) with my XLO, definitely too much for partnered people, but even though I guess he was involved maybe even more than me, he never admitted it to himself or me, and I would never call it an EA, for me it’s still plain old limerent episode from my side and don’t-know-what from his side (unlike LaR, I lost interest in what it was for him)…
I am not in a good position to reply since I am not involved in this type of thing, but it seems to me that if a person is confiding in their LO rather than their SO, and something is being taken away from the marriage, that must qualify as at least some sort of EA?
Even if the LO is oblivious.
I don’t know. Perhaps Dr. Tom can clarify?
Mila,
“I would never call it an EA, for me it’s still plain old limerent episode from my side and don’t-know-what from his side”
And, honestly, you probably won’t ever know how the LO is feeling. I mean, you could ask. (“You” being the generic limerent.) But there’s no guarantee you’ll get an answer or an honest answer. I guess if the LO just offered the information without being prompted.
Hi Norma and Marcia,
I guess I’m just being a language stickler. I thought „affair“ implies a conscious engagement of both sides. But the definition doesn’t matter so much of course, because if that:
„ it seems to me that if a person is confiding in their LO rather than their SO, and something is being taken away from the marriage“ is the case, it’s time to stop and think, regardless if the other person is doing the same or not and regardless of the exact name one would give this kind of emotional dependency.
Marcia, exactly, and as I said, I lost interest in finding out whatever it meant to XLO, and I’m sure it‘s not clear to him either, so there‘s nothing to „find out“ really.
Mila,
I get Norma’s point. If you are putting a lot of energy and/or time into someone else, that could take away from a relationship with an SO.
But to me, “affair” implies some sort of heft. You’re sharing a lot with each other. You’re becoming dependent on each other.
You could have a decent amount of communication with someone. Doesn’t mean there’s much depth to it. And it doesn’t mean the other person has any dependence on you or is sharing much with you. Or they could be sharing a lot and think of you as a friend. Affair implies to me some sort of romantic interest on both sides.
I think limerents spend a lot of time trying to figure out how their LOs feel. I of course include myself in that category. But I think if it was that big of a deal to the LO, the limerent would know. The LO would tell them or make it clear. I think we limerents make this so much more complicated than it really is.
„ Affair implies to me some sort of romantic interest on both sides.“
That’s what I meant!
„ But I think if it was that big of a deal to the LO, the limerent would know. The LO would tell them or make it clear“
It’s not that easy though, especially when there are barriers, SOs. The LO could also be limerent and make a song and dance about every little gesture and be scared of disclosure. Unfortunately LOs are not always mature or handling the situation well, same as the limerents.
From the outside one thinks „what the hell, why don’t they just stop or talk about it“ but that’s the curse of limerence, no straight thinking or feeling.
Mila,
“It’s not that easy though, especially when there are barriers, SOs. The LO could also be limerent and make a song and dance about every little gesture and be scared of disclosure.”
I just don’t agree. At some point it’s going to bubble up. There’s going to be something in both the LO’s and limerent’s energies that allow that to come to fruition. I’m not sure any other way to put it.
If that doesn’t happen (and I’m making a sweeping statement here as I obviously can’t account for every situation) … the feelings aren’t strong enough, the LO doesn’t want you to know or it’s the limerent holding back. That happens as well.
Marcia,
but the limerent holding back doesn’t mean he isn’t limerent, ergo, the LO holding back doesn’t mean he isn’t limerent. It still means it could be mutual but you‘ll never know.
I think you overestimate the honesty of people a bit, or I‘m too sceptical (as I mentioned in another post, gloomy day today here)
Mila,
“but the limerent holding back doesn’t mean he isn’t limerent, ergo, the LO holding back doesn’t mean he isn’t limerent. It still means it could be mutual but you‘ll never know.”
I’ll use my last mini LO as an example. I realize you were already friends with your LO and already texting. But I had never communicated with him outside of work. And he randomly emailed me one day. Our short conversation was all very benign but it did get me wondering: Is he trying to open the door? I emailed him about a week or so later. And it started off friendly/jokey … but there was something in my reaching out again that let him know I was opening the door a touch more. And then he walked through it. Meaning, he disclosed his interest. My energy was open, his was, and he wanted to say something.
So if that’s not happening … one or both parties’ energies are blocked. And you can sometimes feel that. When the other party doesn’t want you go further. Or one or both parties don’t want to say anything. Or there aren’t feelings there to disclose. When I write “feelings,” I mean interest. I don’t necessarily mean some big, heavy declaration.
That looks like Marcia, Adam and myself sitting at that table on the left, in that top picture.
I wonder what we were discussing..
Surely wasn’t about limerence was it?? 😆😆
Just sip and gossip away your morning coffee ☕️ … and make efforts to kill all your LE….
Got to run to teach all day….
To Miss Snow:
I hope your day goes well.
Miss Norma,
Thank you! My day so far is really good! Dealing with young children is always so pleasant, they (4-9 yrs) are absolutely delicious.
I hope today brings you peace and joy! 💐
To Miss Snow:
I didn’t realize you taught such young people. I had assumed they were older.
A great opportunity to influence young minds!
Miss Norma,
This is a side weekend job, I love their rosy cheeks, cuteness, and curiosity… 😊
My week daytime work is with college.
🌺 to you!
To Miss Snow:
Thank you for the clarification. I had thought you taught college.
I admire your strength and energy.
To MJ:
Well, it definitely isn’t me. I am old enough to be those folks’ mother.
Plus I am rocking my dad’s crewcut from 1965.
All good ND.. I was just hoping my Lady Marcia would appreciate my noticing her.. I’m sure you look good just the way you are.
Besides my Brother Adam has exquisite taste in the opposite sex. He doesn’t take just anybody out for Lobster Bisque you know..
😉😁
To MJ:
Good to know. I appreciate the reassurance.
I cut all my hair off years ago when my kids got head lice.
I discovered that the G. I. Jane look agrees with me. Although I don’t look nearly as good as Demi Moore did in that movie.
Hamlet
I can’t find what thread you posted “Stand By Your Man” but these two songs conflict me from my own struggles and how my wife has stood by me despite alcohol and limerence.
A conversation I’ve had a lot with myself.
Drinkin’ Them Beers — Thompall Glasser
https://youtu.be/cHR5xFXZut0?si=Qii-bbX73Hx4NXE_
And my wife’s dedication to me.
I’ll Stand By You — The Pretenders
https://youtu.be/ABGPMw_ir08?si=r294EljESZjTIrXE
To Adam:
Allow me to contribute my own offering:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcATvu5f9vE&list=RDXcATvu5f9vE&start_radio=1
Addicted to Love by Robert Palmer? The link sends me to a mix from YouTube. So not sure if that’s what you intended or YouTube is glitching on me. If so that is quite the limerent song and I remember it playing on the radio a lot in the 90’s. Tie your Dali shoes tight and we can go dancin’ to this pretty lady. 👍
Dear Adam:
My Salvador Dali shoes have no laces.
So they’re as tight as they’re ever going to be.
I think they’re fine for dancing.
As Ronnie Milsap would say “I wouldn’t have missed it for the world” young lady.
Adam,
“When are we going on our date? I feel like I’ve known you for 5 years and you’ve been asking me and ND out for 10 years. I don’t like talkers! 🙂
To Marcia:
I’ve only been here about eight months, so that can’t be right (?).
ND,
It was a joke. That he ‘s all talk and no action. 🙂
Well I guess Dame Marcia the day you’re not so damn overy and hotheaded. And probably cause I’m not gonna cut in front of my brother. And Miss Norma is a nicer to me so 🙄
*ornery* lol
I’ve been more than patient. You’ve been talking about this for weeks.
And I’ve encouraged you to cut in front of your brother … like 5 times.
I can see the family resemblance … with your pace.
Norma D … maybe we should go younger. Those guys might move faster. 🙂
To Marcia:
I am pretty slow myself.
Not sure I could handle anything too racy.
ND,
“I am pretty slow myself.”
I don’t know how much time I have left on the planet. I’m going to have to move on. 🙂
Miss Marcia
We are too stubborn for each other. You think I like em young, you want em young. Don’t be so damn stubborn with brother. He’s just pacing himself. Be glad he’s not trying to reserve a hotel room at first glance.
My Dear Norma
That’s what endears me to you.
Adam,
Quite the limerent song…but back in a simpler time before I knew limerency. Now I see limerents everywhere! The movie Ghost with Demi Moore and Patrick Swayze… total limerent metaphor. It’s a story of a limerent trying to go NC on her LO, and free herself from her LE so she can live and love again. The original movie script had the story take place completely in the limerent’s head but that would be seen as “crazy” by most of the viewing audience. How do you film something taking place in someone’s head? They personify the LO as a ghost and now you have a love story you can film.
Adam,
“Be glad he’s not trying to reserve a hotel room at first glance.”
At least that’s taking some action. 🙂
An offer was made … but it does have an expiration date. I can’t keep the goods on the market indefinitely. That’s tacky. 🙂
Dame Marcia you are too much.
How did I get brought into this? And what’s with an expiration date? Why is that tacky? Goods can stay good as long as you’re taking care of them.. 😆
Btw, I thought you’d like to know NewGirl is 42.
I told you I can go for the 40 somethings. Or is she still to young??
@Adam, thanks for helping me out up there. 👆🏻
MJ,
“How did I get brought into this?”
Because your brother, for some bizarre and misguided reason, seems to think you have “dibs.” Which you do not. I’m a free agent. I will take the best and most timely offer. 🙂
” And what’s with an expiration date? Why is that tacky? Goods can stay good as long as you’re taking care of them.. 😆”
You both waited too long. I’ve moved on.
For all of you lamenting the fact your LOs have a lot of spinning plates … can you not see why?
“Btw, I thought you’d like to know NewGirl is 42. I told you I can go for the 40 somethings. Or is she still to young??”
I’m not entertaining this conversation until you ask her out.
Brother
Dame Marcia is Lucille Ball and Miss Norma is Mary Poppins. Imma sleep cause booze …. Cause Miss Norma is a due for some oysters?
“Dame Marcia is Lucille Ball”
Adam
I was hoping she would be more the Eve Arden type, but Lucy is ok. I’m just not always a fan of redheads. 😆
“Because your brother, seems to think you have “dibs.” Which you do not.”
Marcia
Here I thought I was moving the needle with you Woman. Will I never learn? I still think its because he’s younger and married.. 😆
Who did you move on with? I thought your Old Man was keeping you company. I can’t keep up. You must keep a full rolodex. Must be nice. Wish I could just pick up someone at random and take them for coffee.
“I’m not entertaining this conversation until you ask her out.”
We’ve been working a lot and I have other challenges to work around. I was actually thinking of asking her for next weekend but I can’t be certain it will happen. She seems totally ok with the current arrangement but I’ll keep you posted.
To Adam:
No, Miss Norma is not due for any oysters.
No oysters. Ever.
MJ,
“I was hoping she would be more the Eve Arden type, but Lucy is ok.”
Eve Arden … the actress in “Mildred Pierce”? If so, I’m actually impressed.
“Here I thought I was moving the needle with you Woman.”
I have been VERY, VERY clear about what moves the needle with me.
“I still think its because he’s younger and married.. 😆”
He’s not young enough. 🙂
“Who did you move on with?”
No one, actually. I’d rather move on to nothing than wait for flim flam. 🙂
“Eve Arden … the actress in “Mildred Pierce”? If so, I’m actually impressed.”
Marcia
See? You think Ol MJ is just some blue collar Union redneck from the Midwest, that likes his blue eyed blondes, along with a Bud Light, some chips and some football on the boob tube, don’t you? 😆😆
Yes that Eve Arden. I love her. She also had a great show of her own called “Our Miss Brooks” Its hilarious. You should look it up. I’ll bet you also didn’t know she played the Principal at Rydell High in the movie “Grease”..
Yes that famous “Grease” movie from 1978..
We were 7.. 😉😆
MJ,
“See? You think Ol MJ is just some blue collar Union redneck from the Midwest, that likes his blue eyed blondes, along with a Bud Light, some chips and some football on the boob tube, don’t you? 😆😆”
No. I just kind of assumed you’d like a young Pamela Anderson or Megan Fox type. (Sigh, that I had to write “young” Megan Fox … because she’s under 40. But I know how you are.) Btw, I don’t have an issue with a blue collar man. A downtown dude. 🙂
“I’ll bet you also didn’t know she played the Principal at Rydell High in the movie “Grease”..”
I did know that.
She projects a kind of no-nonsense intelligence. Ok. You got a point for that one. 🙂 (Tbh, I wouldn’t have cared if you liked the vixen type. It’s still a more interesting choice :))
I actually met Eve Arden once at a doctor’s office.
She was elderly then.
She was charming.
This is to Adam:
Could you please clarify the Mary Poppins comment?
Also, not sure why you think I want oysters? I know they’re supposed to be a sexual stimulant. I certainly don’t need that, ugh.
Miss Norma
I mean it in that your are a nurturing soul like Mary Poppins was to the children in her care. Lucia Ball was a powder keg like Dame Marcia. Chaotic, unpredictable and fiery. While Mrs Adam is very much both, I don’t think I could handle Dame Marcia. She’s mean to me. But you’re nice to me. 😝 The oysters are just because I like them and didn’t know if you would too. Momma gets 🤮when she watches me eat oysters. She also not on board with me liking anchovies on my pizza.
To Adam:
I could probably watch you eat oysters without barfing, but I can’t guarantee it.
I like anchovies in a Caesar salad.
Thank you for the clarification on Mary Poppins. I hated that movie, but I do try to be kindly and nurturing.
“I don’t think I could handle Dame Marcia. She’s mean to me.”
Adam
She can be mean to me too but I think she does it out of love. I mean how can she not love poor poor Limerents like us? We need good, Feisty Women like her to get us in line and set us straight. 😂
MJ,
“She can be mean to me too but I think she does it out of love.”
More like frustration. 🙂
And you don’t have dibs. It’s my package. I get to be the one who determines who gets dibs. 🙂
“It’s my package”
Marcia
You said “package” 😆
(Laughing in Butthead style over here)
Good to see you’re in ownership mood tonight as I should’ve expected. Upon you seeing my name come up on comments and curious what I’m chatting to my Brother about.. 😆
“I just kind of assumed you’d like a young Pamela Anderson or Megan Fox type. (Sigh, that I had to write “young” Megan Fox)”
I figured you would take me for being that type. Actually Pamela Anderson has never done anything for me. About the same with Megan Fox. Even in her younger days. Although I did do a double take or three, when she had a few scenes in “Two and a half Men” from years ago. Have to admit, she looked pretty good in a bikini top..
MJ,
“Upon you seeing my name come up on comments and curious what I’m chatting to my Brother about.. 😆”
Of course. You know how nosy I am. 🙂
“I figured you would take me for being that type. ”
Actually, you’d earned major points with me if you’d have said a young Madonna in her early, slutty phase. 🙂 Seriously.
But Eve Arden is a good choice.
I’m going to tell you a little secret. My last big BO was a bit of a redneck. Didn’t see that coming, did you? 🙂
“Actually, you’d earned major points with me if you’d have said a young Madonna in her early, slutty phase.”
Marcia
There’s another one I never really into much. Probably because she was always older. I think I liked her for about 5 minutes. Which was about the time Material Girl came out. I remember liking that video with her and the guys all dressed up. That whole Like a Virgin phase, with her swinging around in a wedding dress was hot, but I still wasn’t all that into her and I think thats because I just wasn’t into her type of music.
I did however think “Crazy for You” was always nice. She was in her prime singing voice then and thats just a very thoughtfully arranged piece of music anyway. (Holy crap. Visionquest. What an ancient movie. Thanks for making me feel old and dirty 😆.)
The only song of hers I ever really really liked was “Justify my Love” (Probably because Lenny Kravitz wrote it and he’s awesome) It was a very sexy song and the video was pretty hot too, if I remember right.
“My last big BO was a bit of a redneck. Didn’t see that coming, did you? 🙂”
Well since my only idea of you is Jeannine Garafolo, no I can’t really see that working out. Although I don’t know. Maybe you would look good in a pickup truck. 😂 (NewGirl drives a Big Ford F-150 Raptor and she hardly comes off redneck-y..)
I have no room to talk. I used to own a big 4×4 Ram and I hardly consider myself redneck, so pardon the correlation.
MJ,
“Probably because she was always older.”
So a woman in her mid-20s was too old for you, even then? The music stars I liked when I was a teenager were in their mid-20s or so. Those guys seemed exciting and dangerous. They were grown men.
“That whole Like a Virgin phase, with her swinging around in a wedding dress was hot, but I still wasn’t all that into her and I think thats because I just wasn’t into her type of music.”
Because you were too busy listening to Twisted Sister ? 🙂
“Thanks for making me feel old and dirty 😆”
Don’t you feel like that all the time, without me having to prompt you? 🙂
“It was a very sexy song and the video was pretty hot too, if I remember right.”
I like that song, too. She looks great in the video but that was after she lost weight and worked herself into looking like a machine. I think she looked better in the very early days, with just a little more jiggle. 🙂
“Well since my only idea of you is Jeannine Garafolo, no I can’t really see that working out. ”
That’s another woman I approve of. She’s attractive and very funny.
Ah … but that’s why I liked him. We were so different.
“she hardly comes off redneck-y..”
I don’t think of redneck as an insult. As long as it’s who someone authentically is.
“So a woman in her mid-20s was too old for you, even then?”
Marcia
Not really, I was probably just more focused on my nerdy-ness back then and inability to relate to the opposite sex. Go figure. Not much has changed.(My middle school crush was actually 2 years older than me).
When it came to older Women in music, I had a big crush on Susanna Hoffs from the Bangles. Then somewhat for Belinda Carlisle from the Go-Gos. Also Sheena Easton (Think I mentioned that to L.E. in another post, lol) I even crushed on Kim Carnes at one point because I liked her blonde hair and something about her raspy voice on Bette Davis Eyes was freakin hot.. (And do you now begin to see why I became a freaky limerent? 😂)
Twisted Sister, (what is that? Lmfao!!) yes I had that album. Didn’t every Boy in 8th grade? And Quiet Riot? (Had a few of theirs too) They really weren’t my favs though. I was listening more to AC/DC (pre and post Bon Scott), Pink Floyd and Rush. Those were more my go-tos in my collection.
“Don’t you feel like that all the time, without me having to prompt you? 🙂”
I do.. 😆
(What is this turning into? A wedding?)
“That’s another woman I approve of. She’s attractive and very funny.”
Well I’m glad my tastes have garnered your approval. I like her style and kinda low-key vibe, while still being hilarious. If you like it a little more raunchy, look up Brittany Schmitt on YouTube. I find her super attractive and funny too.
(I just wonder what happens now, when/if you don’t approve.. 😆)
MJ,
“My middle school crush was actually 2 years older than me.”
I had crushes on boys my age, too. But the adult male rock stars were just hot.
“When it came to older Women in music, I had a big crush on Susanna Hoffs from the Bangles. Then somewhat for Belinda Carlisle from the Go-Gos. Also Sheena Easton (Think I mentioned that to L.E. in another post, lol) I even crushed on Kim Carnes at one point because I liked her blonde hair and something about her raspy voice on Bette Davis Eyes was freakin hot…”
Those aren’t bad choices.
“Twisted Sister, (what is that? Lmfao!!) yes I had that album. Didn’t every Boy in 8th grade? And Quiet Riot? (Had a few of theirs too) They really weren’t my favs though. I was listening more to AC/DC (pre and post Bon Scott), Pink Floyd and Rush. Those were more my go-tos in my collection”
Outside of Pink Floyd and Rush, the others are pretty juvenile. Doesn’t mean I don’t like them. 🙂
I’m surprised you didn’t mention Motley Crue. 🙂 Your musical taste reminds me of one of the album reviews Rob Reiner reads to the members of Spinal Tap about their work. “The musical growth rate of this band cannot even be charted. They are treading water in a sea of retarded sexuality and bad poetry.” Have you seen “This is Spinal Tap?” It’s funny.
“(What is this turning into? A wedding?)”
Huh?
“Well I’m glad my tastes have garnered your approval. ”
There really aren’t any women you could name I wouldn’t approve of. Now, there are some you could name who would reveal to me you were super boring. 🙂 But so far you haven’t done that.
Yeah well Pink Floyd is on a whole new level (yet to be achieved by anyone) of white guys with guitars. Grouping them with “rock & roll” or “hair bands” is insulting. As someone who grew up in the 80’s and 90’s with rap, R&B, soul and jazz, all that “white boy” music had no appeal to me. I was 18 before I heard Aerosmith and Slayer (yeah I know polar opposites in “rock”) for the first time and was totally unimpressed. By my early 20’s a co-worker loaned me his Wish You Were Here Pink Floyd CD and I realized what I was missing and tried to get more open to such kinds of music. And while I like some of it, like AC/DC, no one has reached Pink Floyd’s level. They are in a class of their own.
Now if you will excuse me, youtube is playing one of my favorite Barry Manilow songs ….
Adam, good songs. I guess copying that link put up the biopic Tammy and George on my wife’s Amazon Roku feed. My wife had never heard of George Jones but of course knew the song Stand by Your Man. She watched the movie last night. 5 minutes in she’s telling me that George Jones is a horrible person. 😂 But she did watch it all. I’ve loved country music pretty much all my life. The Opry stars but really my heart is with The Outlaws, especially Willie Nelson, and then Johnny Cash who was kinda on his own. I love almost every type of music but I occasionally play some favorites or an album of country these days.
Hamlet
That’s funny cause I’d never heard that song before so I asked my wife if she knew it. She said “yes. Do you know who she’s talking about?” I said no and then she told me the whole story. Only song of his I like much is He Stopped Loving Her Today. I’m a yankee married to a southerner that was born a stone throw from the Canadian border in Minnesota and am now in the Deep South. I’ve just started listening to country music here recently. I think Conway Twitty is fastly becoming my favorite. Though some “modern” singers like Ty Herndon, Hunter Hayes and Terri Clarke I like a lot too. Okay okay I like watching Terri Clark sing too. Fine I’ll admit it. What man wouldn’t like her to be their Dirty Girl. 😏
Adam,
I didn’t bring up that song because I figured if you did know it, you probably cried every time you hear it and I didn’t want to bring up such thoughts for you. If you didn’t know it, doing so would be like introducing cocaine to Len Bias on draft day. 🤔😄 I’d be shocked if you don’t have it in your will to play that song at your own funeral.
I do like the mixture of rap and country, Nelly and Lil Nas X. Yeah…I’m not into the young female singers like you. 😂 I like popular songs often sung by young women, couldn’t tell you who sings them 90% of the time, but my days of watching MTv music videos and knowing all the artists are long long past for me.
Hamlet
While I was born in Minnesota when my material grandfather died we moved to St Louis. So I grew up with rap/R&B/soul/jazz. I have my favorites like Biggie, A Tribe Call Quest, Boogiemonsters, Getto Boys, P Diddy and Too Short. My poor YouTube algorithm can’t keep up with me going from Da Brat to Conway Twitty to Air Supply. 😂 I took me a long while to listen to country music. But have no fear I’m not like my brother is with Christina Carpenter as I am with Terri Clarke. That woman is now in her 50’s and looks better than me approaching my 50’s myself. I’d take Sigourney Weaver on a date the same I would our own Miss Norma.
“But have no fear I’m not like my brother is with Christina Carpenter as I am with Terri Clarke.”
Adam
Christina Carpenter?? 😂
Small correction my Friend. Her name is Sabrina and she’s almost as beautiful as LO. (Notice I said “almost as” because she’s not. 😆)(A whole lot of similarities though. 🥰)
I know you really don’t care. Just wanted to bring
this to your attention. Because I know if I didn’t, my Boo Marcia, would call you on it and make fun of you again..
That silly Marcia. I don’t know what I’m gonna do with her sometimes.. 😆
(Btw, I am calling dibs 🤣)
My bad brother, yes Sabrina Carpenter. I watched a short on youtube of an interview of hers where the interviewer asked if people asked if she is related to The Carpenters. She said she does get asked it a lot, but no, but that she does like their music. She seems like a genuinely sweet girl. Very polite and always smiling. I don’t think I have ever listened to her music, but I am sure she is talented in her genre. Maybe I will get to trying her music out, as I have been trying to spread my musical wings a little more in my old age. Here lately I am on a country kick.
I’m not sure if I love her style of music, but she does have a few tracks that really highlight the pretty voice she has. She was also pretty good on SNL a few weeks ago and looked even better prancing around in that “Manchild” number she performed live.
Not gonna lie, her and LO are very similar in features but LO is not as shapely as Sabrina..
Or perhaps I should just write, LO is shapely in her own unique way, different from Sabrina..
Ok, well thats enough ruminating for this chat.. 😆
I’ll still pick LO over Sabrina every time..
🥰😂
No topic is given, yet I open it up and there are already 20 comments. This is a chatty bunch! 🙂
To Serial Limerent:
Help! I’m talking and I can’t shut up!
29 comments now! 😉
Hello all. Nice to see everyone here. As I mentioned sometime back, I have also had sort of a relapse. The LE embers were ignited back. The reciprocation from LO really led to my feeling down afterwards, though we had a great interaction, our warmest yet.
As very interestingly mentioned by Mila in an earlier post, the previous highs and lows have been replaced by either very short highs followed by longer lows, or in some case, pretty much zero high, and long low.
For now, I am just pushing on through, and hoping to feel better soon. As mentioned by another LwL friend, I am trying to take this as a blip, rather than a full on setback. Hopefully, NC and passage of time will work to make things better. They always do.
Mentally, this has been the toughest thing that I have experienced, but I am determined to move on.
Have a great weekend, all!
Hi ABCD,
„Hopefully, NC and passage of time will work to make things better. They always do.“
I wish you the best, it‘ll get better soon.
Is NC easy to maintain in your case?
Thanks Mila. I am feeling better now.
NC happens for 1-2 months at a stretch. Full NC is not happening, so I just try to ride out each interaction.
I was hoping to reach a state when the interactions do not bring me down as much. Have not gotten there yet, maybe in the future.
I just started listening to an interview with Anthony Hopkins and the story he told of his second epiphany really connected with my own LE story. The details, timeline, everything actually between Anthony Hopkins story and my own are totally different but the same epiphany or clarity of resolve is what ties our stories together. That clear resolution is ultimately what led to me overcoming the LE. The resolve is just the beginning though. The mechanics and work to actually change are a whole other story. That’s where the resources here, therapy, self reflection, peyote shaman rituals in Arizona, whatever all play a role. But it all has to start with the resolve to be a different better person than you are today so that you can have the types of healthy relationships that make you and those you are involved with happy. Anyway…. the story of his second epiphany starts at 3:50: https://youtu.be/1mbe4F3YBqw?si=X2uzRisbdaubHkO8. Aside: I came right here after hearing that epiphany in the interview and haven’t listened to the rest. I really hope that he doesn’t change course in the rest of the interview. 🤷🤔😂
I’ve hit 11 months of NC on my end. I haven’t initiated any texts, calls, or interacted with him on social media. He did text me happy birthday and called once in those 11 months but I didn’t interact more than was polite, so I still count it NC on my end. In the past any of that would have had me giving in to the desire to go back to old habits of frequent texting and calls. I still miss our conversations and still have the impulse to share random things with him but I’ve continued to resist the impulse. I think the longer I’m NC on my end he’ll eventually forget about me won’t pursue any more contact on his end. Counting down the days till I make it 1 year.
I wish you continued resolve. I broke NC because I thought I could not bear to lose touch with my LO forever.
In retrospect, I wish I had called a Limerence Emergency Hotline instead.
1-800-GLIMMER, what is your emergency?
To Sapiens:
What a wonderful idea! I like the way you think.
Sapiens,
“1-800-GLIMMER, what is your emergency?”
It’s the song “Operator” by Atlantic Star. 1984. One of the best years for music.
Operator, this is an emergency
Operator
Baby, don’t hang up on me
Midnight Star …
Thank you for your comments today.
To Lost Girl:
Wow. Eleven months. I can’t even hit eleven weeks.
I can’t even hit four weeks.
Oh, well, at least there’s that Limmy Award to look forward to.
Lost Girl,
Great to see you here and read your update. Good for you to staying resolved to NC despite the temptations.
I recognise also the random ( and relevant ) things you mentioned that prompts the urge to connect. It’s very difficult not to reach out when there is a genuine connection.
We both came here to LwL around the same time a long time ago now !
I’m around 6 months NC now, mostly due to circumstances changing (not me being stronger).
Year end ( Christmas/ New Year holidays ) will be the next main challenge in the contact challenge I guess.
Best wishes
„ Year end ( Christmas/ New Year holidays ) will be the next main challenge in the contact challenge I guess.“
That reminds me of frederico. Hope he‘s ok!
Who was the first to wish happy holidays or happy new year in the last years, you or LO?
I would advise not to think of it now. It‘s still two months, and things/attitudes/states of mind can change a lot, so better not waste time now on resolutions or plans.
Hi Mila, but now you asked the question. Ha ha !
Yes, I am trying not to think about it yet. Much to do before then in every avenue of life.
Ah dear frederico ! I also hope he is doing ok and in a happy place. Such a lovely person.
I also wonder on Nisor too and latest from Lost in Space and some others too.
Hi Imho,
sorry, I know, I wasn’t helpful😂
But I mean it- no matter what virtuous or risky plan you might make now, it‘ll look different in a few weeks, so why bother now.
Yes, I wonder sometimes about old LwLers too. Sometimes they suddenly surface again. I like to think that they found peace of mind and distance from old pain and worries that might have brought them to this site.
I do hope that Frederico takes holidays to the seaside from time to time and buys flowers from friendly Adonisses (this plural sounds completely wrong).
I also imagine frederico in new smart clothes at a fancy hotel on the riviera.
I would be happy to initiate sending Christmas greetings to him without overthinking it.
„I would be happy to initiate sending Christmas greetings to him without overthinking it.“
Me too, like I send 😘to you. Isn’t it funny how we don’t hesitate with virtual strangers, but with LOs we count every word if it’s too much..
Sorry to butt in but I was downing a quick Espresso at the next table and overheard your girls chat.
“Isn’t it funny how we don’t hesitate with virtual strangers…”
It’s weird. I’d say people here are far from strangers to one another (you two are a good example) because we share information at a level of intimacy and importance to us, that we don’t with basically anyone in real life. And yet any of us could walk past each other in the street today and be none the wiser.
“…but with LOs we count every word if it’s too much.”
That’s because every word with an LO *is* too much in terms of consequences in our thinking.
Imho, I understand why the decision about holiday greetings carries risks … because almost all responses you could get in turn carry (different) risks?!
Hi LaR,
just saw your response that came in while I was writing my latest rant..
Yes, it‘s true that we understand and know each other better in some areas than many of our friends in real life, don’t we. Do you think that’s only possible because our lives don’t touch otherwise and nothing else interferes the understanding? Or would we click on real life too?
So if you all really already want to talk about holiday greetings😂, of course every kind of response needs to be prepared for, meaning that the response shouldn’t be important. If LO doesn’t respond one should be prepared for it without disappointment, if they suddenly gush back with loads of emotional stuff, one should be prepared how to deal with it. Also, one should be prepared that even if we don’t send anything, LO might, or might not.
Me, I advised against deciding too soon because in the past I made virtuous resolutions of NC and not sending anything, only to realize in the last moment that what would make me feel good and free would be to send a non- special nice text like to everyone else. I just realized that when the time came, so all the virtuous resolution-time was wasted energy. Just saying…
Well done, Lost Girl! I know there is a huge temptation to reach out to LO to share stuff, as you said. Kudos for not giving in to it, it takes a lot of will power.
Mila, ha! And I was also having a ramble back to Sapiens, at the very same time you were, about how to attempt to unpack an LE into a worthwhile friendship! (Another lap round the endless 🐌🛖). I was busy last weekend and missed most of that chat, so I thought I’d throw my oar in late.
“Do you think that’s only possible because our lives don’t touch … or would we click on real life too?”
Hard to say. I think there are never guarantees that people who only know each other online would click in real life. And yet, and yet … if I find myself drawn to / talking to certain posters more than others, then there are reasons for that on both sides – and it would increases the chances of clicking with those people versus with those we don’t engage with as much.
There are certain yardsticks like … does the person get my humour and tone? Do they get when I’m having a good day or a bad day, and that what I write changes depending on that, and they can be Ok with it? Those are all good signs for being able to click, and I’d say apply collectively too.
Imho,
I think Mila makes a great point in her response to me, worth you listening to … that all the planning and resolving in the world could well be pointlessly wasted energy, because it ends up being overriden in the moment by what we instinctively feel is ‘right’ … so your efforts are better directed at preparing to be Ok with different kinds of response, or no response, etc etc, than trying to second-guess what you’ll feel like doing in 2 months time.
Hi LaR,
You are always welcome to pull up a chair at the girls table.
Thanks for the advice which is sound. I am trying not to think about it or plan anything, but you guys keep talking about it 😉!
I once dreamt you and I were on a bus together and somehow it came out in the conversation that we knew each other from here. 🚜 😂
And I have,in my head, relayed to Mila in person my entire LE story, with all the details. I guess it’s because I haven’t verbally told anyone out loud and it needed an outlet. (In hindsight , maybe I should have gone to a therapist, just to offload if nothing else).
I think we would get on IRL for the reasons you outline, but who knows for sure. Mila’s voice and accent will not match what I have created in my head, that much I know😀
„ Mila’s voice and accent will not match what I have created in my head, that much I know😀“
Ha, yes! I still haven’t managed to listen to that android phone‘s voice you assigned to me. You would probably be appalled at my real accent! I can write better than talk in English.
I would love to hear your LE story though. Without wanting to brag, people like to offload to me. But they complain too that I never tell them my own worries. I think I could offload to you or LaR since I already know you would react with care and empathy. Sigh! Let’s meet in your dreams on the bus again. Or on LaRs tractor. Although that might be too noisy.
To Lost Girl:
Please consider doing something special for yourself when you hit that one-year mark.
I got a little help from ChatGPT on where to go from here with my LO/friend. It ended with the following mantra:
“Connection is not the same as temptation. We can choose the kind that protects what we value.”
I know that NC is the best medicine for Limerents. But … my LO has been important to me for more than 25 years. Even though we have not been in touch continuously over that time.
When I saw LO checking me out on social media 5 years ago, it was like seeing my favorite star in the sky again after not seeing it for 15 years. That may say something terrible about the state of my marriage. I don’t know. My children are like sunlight to me. My SO is like the moon – waxing and waning but there for me, close, night after night. My LO is a distant star that captivates me, unreachable, and fortunately far away. I don’t want to lose touch for another 15 years. But I also want to be responsible, and a good model for my children.
To Sapiens:
I am intrigued by your comment about ChatGPT.
I am not sure what that first sentence means, “Connection is not the same as temptation.”
I am not above asking ChatGPT for help, but I am too scared to go look for myself.
Besides, if I am going to get responses that I don’t quite understand, that is not going to be helpful.
Sapiens,
Beautifully written, the astronomical theme!
We instinctively know what we want and should do – maintain a connection and friendship with this special person without anything inappropriate.
Chat GPT can tell us that we have a choice and that there is a difference between connection and temptation.
But we are human, and our crazy visceral attraction drivers are not logical and are difficult to switch off, as we know.
I guess it’s the question if you/one can honestly handle the continued connection without the yearning ?
And if you don’t want to go full NC, which I can understand, what is your plan and new rules of engagement to not compromise your values, your commitments or your mental health.
You don’t need to answer this here of course.
It will be hard, but that is the transformation of limerence into love: doing what is truly best for all persons involved, because not only two people have stakes.
I will see if I have it in me… The temptation is difficult, but I feel (partially) like I got the validation I wanted already. I got and I gave it. Time to move on from this dangerous place. We truly care for each other. In some ways that makes it more dangerous, but it also reinforces moral clarity.
More cynically, I also benefit from the long distance. Each decision point of consequence takes a few months, not a few days – let alone a few minutes.
ChatGPT is quite the moralist. It’s a good influence on me. Neither judgmental nor complicit. A real stand up AI.
Hello Imho and Sapiens. What you both said resonates a lot with me. LO and I do share a limited, but continued connection, and I try to not make too much out of it – sometimes I am successful, and sometimes I am not. The urge to pursue this is so strong at time, have been fighting with it for a long time.
Ideal situation of course would be to have the connection, without the longing, as you said.
Similar to Sapiens, both of us have also got validation from each other. Don’t know if it makes it harder or easier.
Hi Sapiens, Imho, ABCD,
„We instinctively know what we want and should do – maintain a connection and friendship with this special person without anything inappropriate.“
„ I know that NC is the best medicine for Limerents. But … my LO has been important to me for more than 25 years“
„ Ideal situation of course would be to have the connection, without the longing, as you said.“
These are my repetitive thoughts of the last years, as many of you know.
I‘m just not sure if that is possible in the way we wish.
I‘m still friends with LO2, but only because he moved away and we have very sparse but warm contact.
I‘m still friends with LO3, but it’s not the kind of friendship I wanted to keep while fighting limerence. The kind of warm special friendship I thought I had and wanted to keep turned out to be an illusion, mostly created by limerence.
We still had a nice friendship back then, but bow I’m not ready (yet?)for a complete return to warmth and ease, and not sure I will ever be.
I waver between reasons for that. Sometimes I think it’s because he really is an emotionally more stunted, more egotistical person than I thought and I just finally got it – sometimes I think it‘s because me, I‘m not yet able to be relaxed with him and cannot have an easygoing friendship again, so I should accept that and write this friendship off, at least for a while.
I had recently adopted the last reason because it felt right to say it’s all on me, I should face defeat and just accept that this person is off my friend list because I cannot do it, no fault of his, only mine- pity for him and me, but that’s that.
But he continues texting in a way that makes me consider the first reason again (him just not being the person I could have that sort of connection with that I thought I had).
Probably it’s a bit of both, I guess.
What I want to say by my rant:
My main goal was to keep the connection without the longing, just like you.
But it wasn’t that black and white- turn the limerence off and keep the unchanged other stuff.
Once limerence faded, the whole picture changed, and there were wounds or scars and self-protective habits that I trained onto myself while fighting limerence etc.
First, this „special connection“ had never been the one I thought I had while limerent (limerence enhancing everything to „special“), and then the whole feeling of friendship or connection changed throughout the process.
As I said, not as easy as „switch one off and keep the other“. All is connected and one changing will change the other, at least in my last LE.
Sapiens,
You said you’d known LO 25 years. You don’t have to answer any/all of this (obviously), but have you been limerent (for this same LO) previously during that time? Or is that only in this last 5 years? And have either or both of you ever disclosed feelings?
“We truly care for each other. In some ways that makes it more dangerous, but it also reinforces moral clarity.”
Both sides of this (brilliantly said) point capture stuff I’ve expressed repeatedly here about my LE too. I was friends with my LO for a decade before she glimmered for me. This makes me feel there is definitely a relationship worth protecting under the limerence, and think it has always reinforced my resolve (possibly hers as well) not to act rashly or to disclose. Sometimes I think I am telling myself stories to rationalise it, but more of me thinks it is actually true that there is a bond worth protecting.
My interpretation of what you mean by the ‘more dangerous’ side … that the fact you genuinely care about each other makes it harder to sever the tie??
If I was being devil’s advocate to you, I’d say ‘wouldn’t severing the tie be the kindest thing you could do for each other, long term?’. I don’t know if I could carry that through (haven’t had the chance to try even if I wanted to). I did it with a previous LO and it proved the right decision for me, but I was so much less emotionally invested that time.
The other thing in what you’ve said that rings alarm bells is how your LO is doing the same thing with other married people and trying to get your advice on it. This tells me that either LO is trying to steer your relationship towards friendship, or that you are being triangulated in what looks like a pattern of behaviour for LO.
No, the dangerous part is that there is true mutual affection, and attraction. LO has told me how great I am, just not in the way I wanted in the moment, before. I’m sad right now but committed to recalibrating for goodness instead of danger. If LO lets me. LO has not run from my feelings yet, even though we both know they are not actionable. Only I’ve run from that. I need to grow up. And not running is how I’m going to do that, this time. Even if if hurts.
A bit of sentimentality here — 💭
On Saturday, I brought my last bag of old clothes for that second hand shop, to get rid of it (after sitting near my door for over three weeks) and to check out the flowery LEG and his bf. The handsome BF said hello to me (as to every customer) with a recognizing look, I could not care less!
This time they took two pieces of dresses — the black flapper dress was still with a label, and the dark orange one patterned with cherries/black dots and a wide black rim (looking like a piece of painting) was with me for over 1 or 1.5 decade(?) Everyone thought it was an interesting piece.
I’m not a hoarder, trust me; However, I would not trade anything in the world with a thick, dark-orange, wool winter coat, two sizes larger, my father bought me when I was 14. I complained at the time it was too big, he said, “there was no smaller size, but the quality is so good. You can wear it when you get fat in the future.” I never grew fat enough to fit in the coat…
When I went back to fetch the bag, LEG received me. He said they decided to take the two pieces and I could leave the rest of them for charity or take them home. As he was getting paper work done and get some cash for me, I all of sudden became sentimental about the orange, sleeveless, cotton dress, that I wore in many occasions, including once having lunch with ET in a park…
I wanted to take it back really badly, but worried that LEG would “laugh at” at my indecision, and I knew I would not wear it again (it makes me look rounder/fat). But I stood there staring at that dress in the basket — it felt like I was selling my childhood broken doll or safety blanket!
Meanwhile, I got more time to check out on LEG with the clearer eyes: he had a bright orange loose sweater on with a very pink fluffy brim around the low cut collar. He was wearing a pair of delicate, golden brimmed glasses (near-sighted) that covered his long eyelashes. 😞 He still looked so deliciously girlish like a chilled cheery from icebox! 😋 But his skinny legs looked even skinner this time in his skinny jeans — there was no muscles in the butt or thighs whatsoever! 😏
On the way home, I was thinking why the longer something is used, the more values it grows? And why values of a marriage/long-term relationship seem to be reduced once it settles down or is secured? and even get more devalued over time❓In any situations, we human beings are more valuable/important than our belongings, right?
Why Some people tend to gaze at a faraway Star (LO), instead of focusing on the Sun (SO) and Moons (children) under their nose? Why one tends to desire “there”, and when they get “there”, it soon becomes “here” again; Then more “there” somewhere else to get to…. Is this our biology or psychology?
I understand DrL’s video about habituation and could not help wonder: is habitualizing process our human nature or culture❓ Some grownups still keep their broken dolls in the attic, or put their memories in their journals or published books….
To Miss Snow:
I can so identify with your sentimentality over clothing.
Except with me, it was my children’s outgrown items which I sold to a second-hand store.
I would get very emotional about their stuff.
I saved a few of my favorite pieces, and I avoid looking at them, for fear I will break down sobbing.
Miss Norma,
I don’t get sentimental with my personal stuff that is 10 or 15 years younger or only have practical functions. The longer they were with me, the harder for me to get rid of them. They become the “museum” pieces of my life.
I can certainly understand your tears over your favorite pieces of your children’s clothes. For stuff (clothes, books) that could bring me some memories of “pains”, I sell or donate them.
Out of sight, out of mind — NC with our old belongings!
To Miss Snow:
That is very practical, and I have tried to do that with some things.
I also had a hard time parting with items that belonged to my parents. I kept a few things. It was hard to get rid of some items, but I do feel better once I got over the pain of losing them.
I think I can monologue a little bit in the coffee house… ☕️
Confession: my curious eyes unintentionally ran into my own posts of August 2023, and was taken by surprises — couldn’t believe I said what I had said 😳!
A couple of thoughts emerged:
1. With only reading of one thread, I did’t get that cringe sensation as I had expected (didn’t dare to read any of my old posts until this morning). I feel glad that my core values haven’t changed that much. However, during my xLE, I downplayed them, underestimated them, and felt so unassured about them; I wanted LO’s validation of them. That (original) insecurity buried underneath my lifetime Longing blocked my LE eyes from seeing even my own essence….
My point: during LE, we limerents often subconsciously feel unnecessary insecure and didn’t self-respect our own solid values. We want so much or insatiable validation from our LO (God knows amount of insecurities in them!) — their approvals of us in whatever aspects, that we lose our insight to who we truly were/are. It’s unfortunate/sad to me 😞
Since my xLE, even in visceral level, is totally gone, I may sound harshly logical, but please bear with my one-penny thought here: limerents here (general) SOUND quite insecure/fearful, while you have much more deep within (buried under your visceral LE), which could bring you much self-confidence or make you more proud of yourself, regardless of what LO or rest of the world would think! I just wish you could turn your eyes inward to truly see your own valuable essence.
2. During my xLE, I was so foggy headed and affected by LE that I was not only unable to see/value my own selves, but so ignorant of what was going on around me. I could not hear/see the rest of the world even in their rosy colors with sweet melodies… My moods, more than often irritated or melancholy, were “controlled” by the “perceived life” in my LE domain.
My point: while still in LE, one cannot trust one’s lightly or heavily LE-coated/lensed sentimentality, even if it’s lasted 2 or 3 decades long. I know it’s easy said than done; but perhaps one can let one’s logical mind to remind oneself so?
Wish you all more joyful holidays!
Clip of the Day:
https://youtu.be/dYZp7dZ0cdw?si=4lyYjKqPfMQT1Xmn – Kung Fu
👩🦰 🏃,
An excellent Kong Fu clip! Thanks.
It’s so true that there are certain truths that cannot be expressed through limited language (doesn’t matter what language) and our imperfect understanding that was, is, and will be “undulated”(affected) by our personal, limited experiences and new learnings.
Using 5-blind men touching elephant fable, each of our touch could sense one part of the elephant, not the whole. But if communicating with other 4 blind men, we could learn and understand (indirectly) their truths, on an intellectual level, not visceral one.
We limerents perceive the 🎀 elephant — LE, from all angles, thus we experience this 🐘 differently. Yet the journey of self discovery, recovery, and renewal, out of the 🐘 spell, is universal. Honesty with oneself, particularly root(s) of one’s fear/insecurity, is MUST 💪 . Stoics go further in attempts to remove the root(s).
******
Another word/conception also popped into my mind this morning — Intuition.
Jung says that “Intuition is perception via the unconscious.” And “Intuition does not denote something contrary to reason, but something outside of the province of reason.”
To me, the Unconscious contain’s one’s entire history from birth, whatever was experienced from the past, repressed in the past, and sensed/thought in the present. While in LE, our perception is “contaminated” by LE lens, with no or little logic but often delusional/illusive perceptions. (I hear someone would argue that LE is outside of the province of reason)
I wonder whether one’s intuition during and after LE would be the same towards the same matter. Can one trust one’s strong “intuition” during LE?
I don’t have clear answers to this question, which only lodged in my head this morning (after reading a bit of my own posts). I know in the past whenever I ignored my strong intuitions, 99% of which I made mistakes, small or big regrettable ones…. Can I trust my post-LE intuition more?
To Miss Snow:
I hesitate to reply, since I know you can run rings around me.
Please keep in mind that I am of only average intelligence, and have some brain damage that prevents me from processing things accurately at times.
Having said that–I don’t think that being in LE and having good intuition are mutually exclusive.
I do think you can trust your post-LE intuition more. But it has not been my experience that being in LE makes a person unable to reason properly.
You know enough of my story to know that I struggle daily with my longing to reach out to LO and am constantly battling the urge to contact him.
Just this morning, I was leaving the supermarket, and a car came out of nowhere, right at me. I was able to jump back in time, but the car hit my shopping cart and sent it flying.
I was shaken up, but obviously physically unhurt. I wanted to contact LO, and I wanted him to comfort me. But I know he is incapable of comforting me, or perhaps just unwilling.
Regardless, it’s a fool’s errand. Even though I am in the throes of LE, I know this. My LE does not cloud my judgment.
So instead I contacted a girlfriend who actually HAS been hit by a car (thankfully not severely), and she gave me the kindly support I needed in that moment.
Miss 🏠 Norma,
“I hesitate to reply, since I know you can run rings around me.”
As long as you do NOT talk about your LO or anything related to him, I’m fine.
“Having said that–I don’t think that being in LE and having good intuition are mutually exclusive.”
I disagree! Totally out of my xLE, I can compare for myself. You cannot yet, as long as you’re still in the throe or even at edge of your LE.
“I do think you can trust your post-LE intuition more. “
Definitely agree❗️ During LE, one’s intuitions were/are repressed down to the Unconscious by that dominantly LE mentality. I only learned about this after I came out of LE; With my current peace and sustained joys, intuitions are resurfacing, luckily.
“But it has not been my experience that being in LE makes a person unable to reason properly.”
I’m sorry to say that when one is in the middle of a thick fog, a limerent is the last person to “reason” properly. By DrL’s definition, LE is an alter state of mind, and every reasoning or decision made in it is questionable.
“You know enough of my story to know that I struggle daily with my longing to reach out to LO and am constantly battling the urge to contact him.”
Many limerents here are doing LC or NC, but I haven’t seen you try it enough with Dr L’s methods, particularly considering you two are not co-workers.
“Just this morning, I was leaving the supermarket, and a car came out of nowhere, right at me. I was able to jump back in time, but the car hit my shopping cart and sent it flying.”
Sorry for your incident. Your attention and focus have been diluted by your LE and your willpower weakened. if you don’t make more efforts to recover your mind, more incidents could occur.
“I was shaken up, but obviously physically unhurt. I wanted to contact LO, and I wanted him to comfort me. But I know he is incapable of comforting me, or perhaps just unwilling.”
I do NOT want to comment anything related to your LO, PERIOD❗️
“Regardless, it’s a fool’s errand. Even though I am in the throes of LE, I know this. My LE does not cloud my judgment.”
I disagree. Clouded judgment affects not just you alone, but most of limerents here, no matter which LE stage they are in.
“So instead I contacted a girlfriend who actually HAS been hit by a car (thankfully not severely), and she gave me the kindly support I needed in that moment.”
That’s very wise to reach your girlfriend, cherish her and your friendship every single day!
Do take a good care of yourself and Happy Holidays!
Hi Norma,
sorry you had that scaring incident. I had two incidents with cars in the past (on the bike), in both the drivers were at fault (suddenly shooting into my priority lane, or opening the car door just when I passed), and although nothing happened apart from falling from the bike , they shook me quite a bit.
I hope the driver apologized to you!
To Mila:
Thank you for your concern. Yes, she apologized, and a bystander also stopped to help.
I didn’t really need any help, but I was grateful for the kindness.
Well, well! If I don’t monologue a bit of my reality, you might be thinking I was floating in the high cloud play chess or something… 😀 Truthfully, I did want to observe how a LE recovered mind works, at least my mind, and how the LwL knowledge and Stoicism could work with a renewed mind….
a LE related matter —
Yesterday I finally “pushed” that Lim pet away. After succeeding in “ignoring” him entirely last week, he agreed to officially withdraw before the deadline. All official steps (an alert was sent campus wide) was taken. The kid promised he’d make up all missed assignment, but none was handed in since the day one of this semester. Meanwhile, he’s a TA for another subject for. He just sat there, with dreamy eyes or slimy smiles or lingered staring, trying to catch my attention, which has to be attentive, enthusiastic, and encouraging, which might have served as “crumbs”.
📣 Who wants to be a LO? I’ll trade my identity with you! I was so repelled, annoyed, relieved, and now sorry for him *sigh* 😮💨. Only through LwL, I understand his mind and feel sympathetic. By the rule, I could neither be stern to him, nor directly talk with him about the matter in any fashion, which has probably made his LE linger or worse (over 14 months now)— the Downfall of non-communication between LO and his/her limerent!
He’s wasted his time and some tuition for the 2nd time. However, I do believe and hope he can recover soon; my TA told me he’s sociable and he lives with his girlfriend and daughter (showed the picture to the whole class).
a Non-LE matter —
Yesterday another scary incident: due to schedule conflict I could not take Mom to her PT for the 2nd time. For the first time, I showed her in person how to get there and return home — 4 short blocks from a small subway station (with one line, single direction only) to the office without any turns, she assured me that she could read street numbers and remember it.
I mentioned that all her life she’s “paranoid” or highly anxious despite she was a surgeon herself; she simply relied on Dad or me for ALL logistical matters. The night before yesterday, she unusually woke up at 2am and never went back to sleep worrying she’d get lost going to PT office on her own. Highly anxious, she got off one station earlier and just walked, walked despite the environment was totally new/strange to her. She got lost about 2km away on the same street.
There is an idiom in COO: bad lucks never walk alone, which never failed to be proven true — her text system was not working when it’s absolutely needed! She didn’t call me worrying to disturb my teaching. After learning her “missing” from PT office (they called me), I called her but her panicked mind could not hear 244 clearly and “insisted” it was “214”. She said she could not move any further due to her physical exhaustion. Unable to speak English, she could neither call a cab nor ask people in the street to direct her.
By then, I realized that my GPS also wasn’t working to locate her so my favorite PT office receptionist, (her first name is Princess), could not pick up Mom— Stuff in this PT office are always extraordinarily nice and helpful! I was about 10-15 km away with my hair standing up (no hair standing emoji yet 🙄), a few minutes before I entered my classroom!
By a miracle, she did wander/lost back to a major subway station with multiple lines. I instructed her over the phone and left the matter to God’s hand — she could find the right direction to get home. She DID! When I saw her later, she did admit that her paranoid and panic actually made her to forget all the directions. I got a “heart attack” afterwards!
Guess what can clam a highly agitated mind or save one from a post “heart attack?” — reading Poetry! Words, words, words, fancy words run with elusive meanings and no concrete actions, which made Wittgenstein to pull his hair out and Shakespeare to lament — Ah, a poet, “half a man, half a mad”….
The morning news is over… I got to practice my ESL a little bit 🥴 Thanks for listening. 😀
Just want to reveal one LO’s mentality here —
If asked whether I felt flattered or my ego boosted by this unwanted LE affection (by a handsome Kid-dad), my answer is 🆎 NO! Not a bit! I was so annoyed most of the time.
Speaking only for myself, in a romance matter, one couldn’t care less about what others think of you, unless s/he is your BP — beloved person. I don’t think this piece of mindset would ever disappear in me until my death bed.
Moreover, if you’re a true Stoic, who cares about others’ criticism or praises (only BP excluded)⁉️ Then those (covert insecure) people-pleasers’ compliments/affirmation become annoying, too, and “comic”. Why do they think everyone else, who are vastly different from them inside out, needs or wants their superficial, patronizing praises⁉️
Well, continuous learning about humanity in all its colors, cultivating self-confidence and Stoic traits, in my opinion, is a major KEY to promote our mental health and attractiveness — in both men and women.
Typo:
“Moreover, if you’re a true Stoic, you would not care about others’ either criticism or praises (only BP excluded)⁉️ “
“Not care” here means one does not desire/crave for others’ praises and validations, but appreciate them if given.
For other’s criticism or invalidation, one does listen to them for their possible merits; if true, one corrects mistakes and makes effort to correct and improve. If untrue, just smile and move on.
Snow, what if you are single and don’t know who your BP is yet? Not my situation but just asking.
Sapiens,
I may not know who my BP is, and I am positive who is NOT.
Glimmer of a high degree doesn’t guarantee a BP,; if it’s one-way street, one needs to pull oneself out; otherwise, s/he slips into limerent.
“Beloved” and “belimrented” are different.
Sapiens,
“what if you are single and don’t know who your BP is yet”
I think I misunderstood your meaning when I rushed an answer one minute before beginning a class last night. You were asking whether one would be Stoic (not “caring about” others’ criticism or praises) when BP is not insight, right?
My answer would be the same, and it’s easier to be since everyone else is in the same bracket. The big challenge lies on what one would do/be when deal with one’s BP. Based on my reading, it seems that only two Stoic could be BP to each other and possibly make their relationship work, and that if one of them is not or much less, then there would be not even a possibility.
If a limerent could be just a quarter of Stoic, s/he would not even fall into limerence (crush, yes). For a limerent to become just a half Stoic, s/he needs to climb to the Mountain Everest, which is not impossible.
Being Stoic and stoic are not the same. One could be wise, loving, and humorous Stoic; my model is still Marcus Aurelius (not very humorous like my Dad, but Dad liked showing off without craving/desiring admiration/validation…). Yet, Aurelius was supposedly the loneliest person in the whole world despite he was an Emperor, because no one else could TRULY understand him (he had a virtuous wife) and be his friend.
My biggest “downfall” was impatience — unStoic, which brought me a lot of misunderstands (thus erroneous reactions) in ESL, situations, and people, possibly for days if not for months or years. I so need to cultivate the virtue of all cultures — patience.
Just found a serious typo:
“which has to be professionally attentive, enthusiastic, and encouraging to alls students present in my classrooms, which might have unintentionally served as “crumbs”. “
Hi Speedwagon, I hope you’re doing well.
I was thinking about your LE and wondering if some elements have changed. I hope you don’t mind my questions. Please only answer what you feel comfortable sharing and if you want to say something like, “That’s none of your business, Lovisa.” I would understand.
Are you still experiencing distress when exposed to your LO? Do you still feel jealous of her SO? The last time we spoke, I had the impression that you feel resentment towards your LO because of the way her presence disrupts your emotions. Would you say that you feel resentment toward your LO?
I’m just curious.
Hi Lovisa, thank-you for thinking and wondering about me. I only check in here every couple weeks now so I am glad I happened to see your message. I hope you are doing well?
My LE has been up and down these past 6 months. Back in the spring my LE was as quiet as it had ever been. I felt pretty good, less rumination and overall desire for LO but then like a limerent idiot I am that caused me to let my guard down and I started engaging her more and more. This led to a flair up over the summer where I really hit some low points again. I have since come out of that through some very strict LC and am back in a quieter phase now. And this time I am not going to make the mistake of engaging with her personally.
As of the moment LO and I have what feels like an estranged relationship. I pretty much avoid her and she avoids me other than what is needed for professional purposes. It does feel a bit awkward to me because it is not my natural personality to be purposefully distant from someone, especially someone I coexist with a good chunk of time. But that is how it is and how it needs to be to stabilize my emotions.
There are a lot of people here who talk about maintaining friendships with their LO because their LO are good people and they enjoy their company. That is not me. My LO is a good person but she is poison to me. If I enjoy her company that just escalates my romantic desire for her. I don’t want to be in that cycle of escalating feelings and constant disappointment and let down. I don’t function well that way. As her manager my only obligation is to provide a good professional setting for her, nothing more, and I stick to that.
Ultimately, I would love to see LO exit my life, but I just don’t think that is going to happen. For a while I had a lot of anger and resentment towards her, but those emotions are debilitating too so I have learned to release that anger.
For now things are OK and I am managing well enough and life outside of LO with SO and my family are really good.
Thanks for the update, Speedwagon! Your situation is rough. I wondered if time healed your LE, but it sounds like your LE goes dormant enough that you let your guard down and then the LE flares up again. I wonder if you are incapable of ever having a normal relationship with your LO. Maybe none of us really can.
I’m not triggered by my LO2, but I suspect that he is triggered by me. We have brief conversations every few months. It feels like he is holding back. It doesn’t bother me. I’m just grateful that we got through this weird chapter without losing the ability to interact with each other. The friend group that we share is important to both of us and I wouldn’t want to avoid the whole group just because I might run into LO2.
About a month and a half ago, my LO3 went NC. He told me that he caught himself focusing more on me than his wife and he thinks it’s best not to have contact with me while he strengthens his marriage. I miss talking to him, but I’m glad that he is working on his marriage. I didn’t even know they were struggling.
Things are going great with my SO! We ran a 50-mile ultramarathon together. It was wonderful! I was nervous going in because at my last 50-miler my motivation to move forward was that each step brought me closer to my SO who was waiting at the finish line. This time I couldn’t use him to motivate myself because he would be with me. It was fine. This time wasn’t nearly as hard as last time. I didn’t need extra motivation, finishing was enough. I loved sharing this experience with my SO.
I’m still trying to figure out male/female friendships. I think they’re good and important, but if one person gets relationship ideas then it gets weird. I have to be careful. Now that I know about limerence, I never want to trigger those feelings in anyone.
Have a great week!
Lovisa,
“About a month and a half ago, my LO3 went NC. He told me that he caught himself focusing more on me than his wife and he thinks it’s best not to have contact with me while he strengthens his marriage. ”
I really like the way he handled this.
“I’m still trying to figure out male/female friendships.”
Befriend guys you’re not attracted to. Seriously. (You can’t control how the other party feels, of course. )
“Befriend guys you’re not attracted to. Seriously. (You can’t control how the other party feels, of course. )”
You can’t but it can still be misleading. Especially if they’re slow and stubborn like me and love wafting in the fantasy.
MJ,
“You can’t but it can still be misleading. Especially if they’re slow and stubborn like me and love wafting in the fantasy.”
If you’re in fantasy land, it’s because you put yourself there. Or you’re letting yourself stay there.
I told you about my male friend. He told me how he felt (just a few weeks into the friendship, although earlier would have been better), I told I didn’t feel the same way … and after a few weeks of awkwardness, we’re friends again. Direct communication. Works best.
He won’t post on here wondering how I’m feeling … because he actually asked. 🙂
Marcia
I get that and its true I stay in this place because the idea of things keeps me hopeful. Like you, LF basically told me she didnt feel the same way either. Things got awkward between us for a few weeks and then they got better. Like dramatically way better. In a way it was always very deceiving because we seemed to get each others playful ways and jokes. Not even always being inappropriate either. Except maybe I was hoping she might be in for something more because I knew what was going on with her and the married guy. Maybe I just wanted in on some of the action too. After all, they were just fwbs, right? Like maybe I just had to say or do the right things and then maybe I could be in on the fun.
This is some of the drawback I now have with NewGirl. Things are good between us. We’re txting a lot more. I’m also pretty sure we’re going to go out soon, but its a different kind of excitement overall. I don’t even know if excitement is a word I’d use to describe it. Its just nice.. And nice in a way where nothing is being forced or manipulated. I’m not going ape-s#!+ nuts to have to be around or see her. I really have no agenda, other than to let the chips fall wherever they may with this one.
I think both of us like each other but are in no hurry to get to each other. If that makes any sense.
MJ,
” Like you, LF basically told me she didn’t feel the same way either. ”
She didn’t “basically” tell you. She did tell you. Way back, months ago, when she gave you a vague, non-committal answer to hanging out. If a woman is interested, she wants to spend time with you. Like today. Or tomorrow. She’s excited to see you.
If have written this before, and … um … you’re not hearing me. So I’ll say it again. 🙂 If you are interested in a woman in a romantic/sexual way, ask her out right away. The day you meet her. Or a couple of days later. If you have sexual feelings for her, OWN them. I’m not saying you have to try to get her into bed immediately. You can take your time getting to know her. You can tell her once you get on the first date you want to take your time and get to know her. I think that would be a nice thing to hear, actually. But make it clear you want to date her. You don’t want to be “just friends.” (And this is my pet peeve with guys who use your slow approach. It’s a bait and switch. You DON’T want to be just friends. At no time is friendship your only agenda.) And if, after asking her out, she doesn’t say a clear and unequivocal yes and show up on that date in a reasonable frame (I’d say within a week or two, tops — meaning she’s not canceling a bunch of times and taking several weeks to show up on the date) … it’s a no.
And then if you get a no, you can determine if you want to hang around for friendship. Maybe you even discuss it. Can we still be friends? I had that actual conversation with my male friend. He disclosed feelings, I said I don’t feel the same, and we discussed if we could still be friends. (Do you know how nice it is to be able to directly communicate with someone? Not that it was an easy conversation. It wasn’t. It was very awkward. But I’m glad we had it.) And now we’re texting and occasionally meeting up. It’s not quite what it was before his disclosure in terms of amount of communication, but I didn’t really expect it to be. And I’m glad we’re still friends as I value him as friend. But “friends” to me, at least, does not mean an FWB. Friends means … I’m not attracted to you. An FWB would never happen with my male friends. That’s why they’re friends.
“Things got awkward between us for a few weeks and then they got better. Like dramatically way better. In a way it was always very deceiving because we seemed to get each others playful ways and jokes.”
So .. you friendzoned yourself. You hung around after you first started talking, and when you finally asked her to do something, you didn’t accept her non-committal answer as a no. And then you still hung around, hoping things would change. Then you told her something personal … I’m assuming you thought that would move the needle (I’m onto you :)) … and the opposite happened. This time you got a very clear no. And she imploded the friendship.
And you pulled away, but you’re still hoping something will happen. I don’t think it’s going to. Don’t hang around someone who’s let you know it’s just a friendship if you can’t accept it’s just a friendship. I don’t know if I could do it. If I was really into someone.
“This is some of the drawback I now have with NewGirl. Things are good between us. We’re texting a lot more. I’m also pretty sure we’re going to go out soon, but its a different kind of excitement overall. I don’t even know if excitement is a word I’d use to describe it. Its just nice.. And nice in a way where nothing is being forced or manipulated. I’m not going ape-s#!+ nuts to have to be around or see her. I really have no agenda, other than to let the chips fall wherever they may with this one.”
You’re doing the same thing with this one.
Now, she actually said yes to meeting up, which is good, but you’re taking way too long to get up on the horse and go on that date. You’re not signaling you’re that interested.
Marcia
Its really not a matter of not being interested. The problem is she has 2 kids that seem to take priority.
(Like why wouldn’t they?)
I’m kinda on the fence about it but its not a deal breaker. Originally I thought she had just the one Son, but now I hear theres a Daughter too. I prefer if she not had them but her Ex kinda seems like a douche, so I don’t even know how often she has them or what custody issues are like for her. I don’t really talk to her about them much. I respect her for going the single Mom route, but I really am kind of turned off with the whole instant family thing, should things increase between us.
I also have my Father that requires extreme care to work around. I have to have caretaking arrangements made if I’m planning weekend events and lately, I’ve also been working some weekends too, so time constraints are an issue for me. That doesn’t mean I haven’t forgotten or trying to signal disinterest to her. I have two households to manage and take care of. As of late, I’m not ready to have her over to my place just yet in case things should go that route. Its been hard to make time for anything when so much of my time is spent at Dads. My home is hardly in bad condition, but its not ready for a Lady to come visit either. (No I don’t have to dismantle my LO altar either 😆)
You never get a second chance to make a first impression and I at least want that in my favor if something goes down and she wants to come over.
MJ,
“I really am kind of turned off with the whole instant family thing, should things increase between us.”
Um … don’t you have children, too?
“My home is hardly in bad condition, but its not ready for a Lady to come visit either. ”
Why does she have to come over your house? It’s just dinner, right?
It just sounds like a bunch of excuses and that you’re not interested in dating right now. (Thus, you never spoke to your LO.) That’s ok. I’m not pressing you to date if you don’t want to. It’s up to you.
I read this somewhere and I think it’s very true: Female desire is attuned to male desire. If you asked me to dinner and weeks had gone by and all you’d done was text … you get where I’m going with this.
“It just sounds like a bunch of excuses and that you’re not interested in dating right now. (Thus, you never spoke to your LO.) That’s ok. I’m not pressing you to date if you don’t want to. It’s up to you.”
Marcia
From the get-go this person flat out told me to be in no hurry to take her out. I never asked why or wtf? I accepted it full well knowing the challenges I have to work around. This is the cross I bear and I’m really not trying to blow her off. I do kinda like her.
At some point I will post about a date and surprise you. Guess I’m just hesitant because of the unexpected. I’m not opposed to things going well. I really think they will.
Yes I do have kids and its that whole idea of things actually working out and families meeting and just all that long term stuff I think about, can feel overwhelming at times. Like both LO and LF not having kids was a huge draw. Still is, so that whole will I or won’t I blend in well with their kids gets avoided.
Its just where I’m at. Yes it is an excuse. A poor one at best but its where I am.
Thank you for taking time to always get back to me. I know we like to have our fun jabbing each other often but you do give me a lot to think about. I make mental notes and I do appreciate it. Please do not ever think I don’t.
MJ,
I’m going to come down with the Dame on this one.
It feels way too early to worry about merging your families, when what you need to do for now is grab that coffee you always want, or the discussed pizza, and see how the two of you click in that setting. Try not to let maybes in the future get above opportunities now.
Because by doing that, you could end up never reaching those future points. I had a friend who used to cut off first dates because she couldn’t sit there at that initial point and imagine the guy as father of her children. She was getting ahead of herself.
What you don’t want (if you are interested in dating her), is NG friendzoning you. Like Marcia says there is a limited time window before friendzoning occurs. The way you talk about NG now reminds me of how you talked nearer the start about LF. I know that didn’t work out how you hoped by playing the slow game, so why not take the plunge this time?
Just my views, and expressed because I really want you to have a better outcome this time, not to criticise.
MJ,
I want to chip in here (if that’s an expression,sorry if not)- remember how you said you would love to have a coffee with someone? So quit thinking about merging families or whatever, don’t overthink , just ask her out for a coffee and a walk, enjoy the time and that’s that! Everything else is thinking way too much ahead.
Come on, just do it, it’s not a big thing really- just ask a nice person if she would fancy a coffee tomorrow. Everything else is stuff of the far future.
Wouldn’t it be nice just to have an hour of relaxed chat and a coffee with someone you get along with? It’s nothing more.
MJ,
“From the get-go this person flat out told me to be in no hurry to take her out. I never asked why or wtf?”
I would not have asked why. That would have been awkward, and she doesn’t really owe you an explanation.
“I do kinda like her.”
You kinda like? She said to be in no rush? What here is drawing you in?
“At some point I will post about a date and surprise you. Guess I’m just hesitant because of the unexpected.”
What would be unexpected?
“Yes I do have kids and its that whole idea of things actually working out and families meeting and just all that long term stuff I think about”
No, I meant that if you have kids, you can’t hold it against someone else who does, too. But it’s too early to worry about the merging of families.
“Thank you for taking time to always get back to me. I know we like to have our fun jabbing each other often but you do give me a lot to think about. I make mental notes and I do appreciate it. Please do not ever think I don’t.”
I appreciate that. You know I like to razz you but I do hope you find someone nice to go out with.
I don’t know what kind of stuff you’re texting each other. Anything juicy? Spicy? Sexy? Very personal about your lives? Or is it basic conversation ?
If you want to get your feet wet in terms of dating again and have a coffee date with someone, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking her out. But I would keep my expectations low for this. And in terms of future babes 🙂 … don’t you want to date someone who’s a little more excited about you? I want that for you.
LaR, Mila, Marcia,
Thank you all for your responses. You are wise to suggest I take more critical action here. Seeing somebody actually sitting across from me, actually drinking coffee would be like a dream come true. I have wanted that for quite awhile. I think some of this apprehension is me trying to wrap my brain around something possibly happening here. Because in a way, this is what feels like normal relationship blossoming. I’m so used to being in some limerent, hyper-fazed, gotta have her like yesterday mentality. I mean with LO, I would have stopped traffic and with LF, I would have jumped over the moon. Its like those 2 were must-haves and this new person comes along and just shows up without any bells or whistles. Making me question, is something real about to finally jump off? Isn’t healthy relationship just that? Relating to a person and not being so over the top for them? I feel like this is where I am.
I know I keep coming back to this, but the situation with my Father is really quite ugly at times and its one that I don’t really like bringing others in on. Because it can feel and actually be so very overwhelming at times. I know it isn’t mandatory I bring this Woman in on that situation in the next 60 seconds. Its just a part of me that has to be dealt with, and it comes with a responsibility to own it. I’m not wild about always having to tell this person, I’m probably not going to be as available as I would to be, because that situation is so up and down.
These are the kinds of things I miss about having a Wife. Because I know exactly how she would be today in helping me deal with these things. Sometimes thats just a very hard pill for me to swallow, having to basically do a lot of this by myself. I remember and know exactly how she would be today, if she were still actually my Wife. I get that I shouldn’t keep pissing and moaning about that, but its more regret for being a buffoon of a Husband.
MJ
“I think some of this apprehension is me trying to wrap my brain around something possibly happening here.”
That feels like a good realisation to come to with yourself.
“I know it isn’t mandatory I bring this Woman in on that situation in the next 60 seconds. Its just a part of me that has to be dealt with”
I pick up from your posts how much time and headspace the care situation with your Dad takes up. If there is a way it doesn’t have to block your dating prospects totally though, try to find it. And you are right that nobody you date has to be brought in on it any hurry. Nearly everyone in midlife has ‘stuff’ going on. Anyone worth their salt will know to expect it with people that enter their lives.
Speedwagon,
Good to hear your update though not all the circumstances – your LE is surely a candidate for the “most stubborn to shift” Limmy award. I’m glad to hear you are back in calmer waters now. Blips are a usual part of the process but you sound like you know what to do to stay on track most of the time.
“I don’t want to be in that cycle of escalating feelings and constant disappointment and let down.”
Even the group of us on here you mentioned who do want to hold on to some sort of friendship with (x)LOs are highly vulnerable to that cycle. I’ve talked at length to others in the “want to be friends” group and not one person has found it easy or got to the other side with both of these conditions met: 1. truly out of limerence, 2. with the friendship quite as they hoped it would be. I’m concluding it is nearly impossible. Even Lovisa (👋), who I thought was the LwL dead cert for managing it, has just surprised me in her reply to you about her LO3 going NC.
Maybe it is easier with the position you have, that this kind of ‘friendship’ just can’t happen!
Good to hear from you again Speed. Doesn’t sound like its all roses there and it probably isn’t supposed to be. Glad you’re doing well otherwise.
I feel your situation is very comparable to my situation with my LF from work. Also a very estranged situation. Our communication has primarily been about work, but has drifted off into topics other than work a few times, but it always feels awkward and very guarded on her part. Like you, I would typically enjoy being more open, easy-going and fun around her because thats how it once was between us. To even attempt to kid around or joke with her now feels like a gamble. Since she flat out told me NOT to get too friendly, staying in my lane is all I can do. What’s irritating is I still catch her staring at me and this seems to still be a thing between us that never gets talked about. Like her eyes are telling me something. Then I get angry at myself for going over to talk to her, thinking I might say something that could change her perspective of me again. When all that is, is just me in love with the fantasy and things never go like I hope they will. Because she remains so indifferent and even cold around me now. I guess I don’t ever call her on the eye contact because I feel like if I do, she’ll stop doing it and deep down I kinda don’t want her to stop.
Its maddening the way she makes me feel interiorly. I had some intense anger and resentment towards her after our fallout but it didn’t last long. Like you I have to co-exist with her at work and its simply a lot easier on my psyche if I keep her at bay.
Yes, I don’t think my LE will ever completely go away as long as I have to coexist with LO and interact with her. But I have learned how to quiet it down quite a bit and hope to maintain it at a quiet level. I am fairly convinced that if LO exited my life it would dissolve fairly quickly.
Not being friends, even just chit chatty work friends, is easy because she avoids me as much as I avoid her. She has never been much of a proactive person socially anyway, but I do think she is also proactively avoiding me because she knows I am proactively avoiding her. But even the times last spring where I was engaging with her she was very limited in her reciprocation back to me. It just never works out how I want it to so it is not worth pursuing. And I think she is OK with it all even seeing me act very friendly with other office people and not her. I don’t get the sense she is bothered by it. To be honest, we also really don’t have much in common either. And being her boss does give me the out to just be her boss and nothing more. Plus, I find being grey rock with helps me feel more in control of things which psychologically is important.
Lovisa, so happy you found something you and SO can bond over. Great work on the 50 mile runs. Sounds awful…lol. My SO and I are newly empty nesters and are also finding activities to share and enjoying spending time with one another sans kids.
LAR, every limerent has their own decision to make about friendship. For me it just doesn’t work but also my situation was easy. I was never friends with LO before the glimmer anyway. You have friendship history and that is tough. But ultimately I do believe that friendship is a constant LE IV drip so as long as one can manage.
MJ, yes work dynamics are so tricky. I really hope you find peace and enjoyment there in the midst of one LO and one difficult LF. I agree that you have to release the anger. It’s my least favorite emotion in all this. When I feel myself swirling in it I simply repeat to myself “release the anger” and it usually helps.
I’ll try to check in another 6 months from now to give an update.
Hi Speedwagon, I hope you get this. I was thinking about your LE again during my run today. I hope you don’t mind some follow up questions.
It sounds like warm, personal interactions with your LO are what triggers your LE. Do the warm, personal interactions feel good in the moment? Does the discomfort come afterwards, like during the let down. Would you describe the distress as “a frustrating realization that LO will never be your mate?”
Which type of personal interactions are more distressing: when she opens up about her personal life or when she listens to you open up about your personal life?
I recall that you are not impressed with your LO’s SO. Do you think the whole LE would have been different if your LO’s SO were an admiral man?
Something that fascinates me about your LE is that you are good at having warm male/female friendships. I am very curious why your friendship with your LO progressed to limerence.
I really hope I’m not overstepping my boundaries with all these questions.
Hello to everyone else who contributed to this conversation, and thank you so much! You guys have some interesting and helpful insights!
I’m putting a handle thingy on here in hopes that @Speedwagon sees it. I don’t actually know why people do this, but maybe it increases the likelihood that Speedy will see my message.
Best wishes everyone!
Lovisa,
“I don’t actually know why people do this, but maybe it increases the likelihood that Speedy will see my message.”
Yes, it does increase the likelihood that your aimed reader(s) would spot your messages faster.
Not every poster wants to read every post to the entire universe or to specific recipient(s) regarding specific issues. By putting a “handle”, one saves others’ precious time in deciding to read or skip personally (ir)relevant posts.
Thank you for putting a recipient name in your post address.
Hi Lovisa, about a week late but I did spot this message. Hopefully you will spot this one.
Good questions.
Any personal interaction with her always feels like connection with her. At the times we were more engaged with each other she can be very attentive to me. Lots of eye contact, lots of smiling and laughing, and lots of attentive listening like she is very interested in what I am saying. I would say I get a little more charged when she asks questions about me and seems interested in me. But she also rarely does. Conversationally she can be very self focused.
Even now still, sometimes she can be this way even over work conversation. There are these moments where she just seems so attentive to me.
Yes, I never respected her husband much. Even before I became limerent. And yes, I do believe that helped lead to my limerence. It played into a rescue fantasy story. When I first started to feel the glimmer, I told myself a story that she was searching for affection from me because her husband was not providing it. Also that she admired me as a business leader and employer and being successful and that must be attractive to her. It felt good to tell myself these things and it made me want to get closer to her. Of course I have come to understand how misguided this thinking is.
I don’t really know why her. It all just happened so suddenly and unexpectedly. I can’t describe it other than I just feel some connection to her that I just don’t with other women. Even women who are very attractive and I have a closer relationship with. With LO it just hits different. I am still closer friends with the other woman in the office but there is no romantic vibe with her. With LO, even in strict LC, it still feels like a lot of relational tension.
And yes, in the moment when I am engaged with LO it feels great. Euphoric at times. But then after I crash and feel the futility of it all because I do ultimately desire intimacy and affection with her and will not ever have it. At best I get very very very small crumbs every so often. I got to a point where pursuing her just felt destructive and pointless.
Thanks for answering my questions, Speedwagon. I appreciate your willingness to share. Thank you especially for talking about your rescue fantasy. I think we’ve talked about it before, but I forgot that the rescue fantasy was part of your LE.
Good to hear from you, Speedwagon and Lovisa!
It’s a tough situation for you, Speedwagon, but for me it sounds as if you handle it very maturely and admirably, and maybe it‘ll all cease to matter slowly in a few months/ years.
I think I only manage to be some sort of friends with XLOs when they left town and my immediate work environment.
Like Speedwagon, I have to work with my LO1, but contact is reduced to a minimum, more from my side than his, but since it was mutual and disclosed, it’s easy to be very LC because we both don’t want to risk anything anymore. Like with my last LO, I had been limerent for a person that doesn’t exist, and only after limerence I saw the real person (and that’s someone I don’t want to be friends with).
I think I blathered enough about current XLO and how I perceived him wrongly and now have difficulties to maintain warm contact.
Only LO2 seems to be the person and friend he‘s been all the time, but then it’s LC because of distance, and I’m sure there would be more problems if he would have stayed as my colleague.
So, LaR, you were my hope that someone manages to keep the warm special friendship he‘s had before. Would you say there‘s no hope anymore?
Lovisa, I‘m in awe at your athletic feats. Gosh.
Mila,
“So, LaR, you were my hope that someone manages to keep the warm special friendship he‘s had before. Would you say there‘s no hope anymore?”
No, I wouldn’t say that – there is still hope for friendships, but with some unknowns about the nature and strength of it. On the surface, we get along much as we ever did, just somewhat (mutually) cooled down, and it mostly doesn’t feel triggering to me now. We have exist as co-workers *a lot* of the time, so that probably helps – there is no skirting around it, and it really threatened my work productivity when I tried more avoidance. The level of exposure I have is quite rare among the several limerents who write on here and might have to see their LO once a month or so. It is most days. But that’s a different question from that of the long term friendship prospects, I guess.
Once we (plural) start to climb out of being limerent, we naturally reassess what we want the friendship to be, and what it can realistically be. We dial down expectations a bit. That’s not proving too bad for me, and it isn’t dialled down to no friendship expectations, just lowered ones. But – there is still the issue you and I have discussed before … that the parts of my life that LO is in, are totally separate from the parts SO is in. I became good at compartmentalisation (guilty), but that isn’t likely to hold for the long term now my exec brain has more control back. And it is still too soon in my recovery and recalibration to try and change that part.
I will keep you posted Mila. I appreciate you not giving up hope on it!
Hi LaR,
ok, so I gather that you are still a bit in the woods (if there’s „out of the woods“, there must be inside of the woods too, no?)since you cannot yet imagine mixing LO and SO world.
Maybe you don’t have to, maybe it’s easier to simmer everything down to mere friendship without the added stress of mixing your compartments, and once it‘s simmered down it ceases to matter if they mix?
The question might be if what made the friendship seem special and precious was simply this, that it was completely in a SOfree world and something only for you alone?
(I have no idea, just throwing it out there.)
Me, I had a longish phone call from XLO and now feel bad afterwards. I wasn’t prepared and my first reaction when I saw who was calling, trained by months of vilifying XLO, was aversion. It would have been better to call him back later with some resolve to be normal and nice, but my kids already said „look, … is calling“ so I had to answer.
I mentally criticized him during the whole call and he was showing his worst sides too (talking only about himself and his woes, not asking how I am etc, complaining about money (he‘s got enough)). In the end I got really annoyed (he was talking simultaneously to someone in the background and me at length) and ended the conversation on a curt note. Then I felt bad, because I did it again, I didn’t detach but judged him, instead of just leaving him be how he is. I can do that very well with other people, but not (yet or any more, that’s the question) with him.
I don’t like the person I become with him at the moment. I get judgy and a bit mean. I think he might show his worse sides too because he feels that I’m being like that- not sure about that though.
Basically it’s like it’s always been – if I don’t initiate good mood, if I’m not proactive and forthcoming, he won’t initiate anything either.
Same old, same old.
It’s just like I said to Imho, onyx, ABCD: I feel worst afterwards about my own behavior, not about LOs behavior.
I still haven’t managed to let go completely of this friendship or to completely cease to expect stuff he cannot give, or even to decide if I want this friendship at all if he cannot give this stuff.
Sometimes I think I managed to not care any more, but then I get these moments of regret after contact.
I will see him soonish in his area of the country- not sure how that will play out.
So that was my update on „keeping friendship after limerence“- doesn’t look too good…
Hi Mila,
I’m annoyed for you to hear that you’ve had another lap of the snailhouse, but maybe these laps are just necessary, as you are not firm yet on whether you want to let him go, or are able to accept him for what he is on some level of friendship, or again whether he can change the way he approaches it (though probably not the last one from what I gather). So my suggestion is that it is best not to rush the decision until you get more clarity either way. Frustrating as that may be.
“if what made the friendship seem special and precious was simply this, that it was completely in a SOfree world and something only for you alone?”
No short answer to that …
There’s a part of me that instinctively tries to deny it, another part that mostly accepts it, and the truth that probably lies between.
The big bit of evidence against – I knew LO and was already solid friends with her (though mostly just at work then) before I met SO. There is a more boundaried version of friendship that worked well between us then, and seems to be Ok again now.
Then there is the version of the ‘friendship’ during my limerence, which was too close and escalated and continued for reasons of escapism. It gets complicated there (in respect of your speculations) because it was not escapism from SO per se, but more escapism from pressures that the pair of us were under together. Some of that we self inflicted, more of it was that we weren’t dealing great with pressures that extended family members on both sides were putting us under (still are, but we are coping better with it now).
But yeah, there was a pure escapism component to the LE that I won’t even try to deny.
So mapping out new territory (based a bit on old templates) is taking some time. The fact I still want to work it out is because I had that long-time template for sensibly being friends with her before I was limerent, not because of the false amplified version it became during limerence.
Before limerence, I didn’t actively work to keep SO and LO apart (they met briefly on odd occasions both before and even during my LE). It is more that my circle of friends with SO are largely outside my work circle. I could change it if and when I was so minded. It needs more time though. And some posters on here have argued that maybe it is never realistic for (in general, not just me) xLO and SO to be socialised without an unhelpful ‘something in the air’ being present. That your SO and xLO can be socialised more ‘normally’ is possibly because you had the pre-LE experiences of doing that.
„So my suggestion is that it is best not to rush the decision until you get more clarity either way. Frustrating as that may be“
The funny thing is how I can see him sometimes like in the past, not care too much but be fond of him, and generally see him in a positive light, and then suddenly the dark glasses are on again. The thing discerning this from limerence is that I don’t think much of him/it, only when there was a call like now or if I read/write here. It doesn’t alter my day to day feelings/happiness at all and isn’t much in my thoughts.
Still, it’s not back to normal with him. I wondered if it would help like back in limerence, to fake it til I make it- envisage how I would behave if I would feel like I wish to feel (indifferent but fond)and go through these motions.
The thing is, I’m tired of putting even more energy into this relationship.
„The fact I still want to work it out is because I had that long-time template for sensibly being friends with her before I was limerent, not because of the false amplified version it became during limerence.“
Same here, that’s what’s similar with us but seems not possible for me somehow.
But I’ve got more hope for you since your friendship seems more flexible and mature than mine.
I know I nudged you in the direction of merging the worlds in the past because I thought maybe that’s what would resolve the „special“ feeling about LO, or lead to a very normal friendship, but now I take that back. It seems to go well as it is, and maybe best not to force anything.
For me it sounded as if you are already there, keeping your boundarized friendship? What is it that still feels like limerence to you?
Mila,
I’m sure you’ve tried to do this already, but can you unpick what’s different between the times when you feel more OK (even if not ideal) with the dynamic with him, and the times when the dark glasses go back on?
“What is it that still feels like limerence to you?”
It’s a great question, and it’s complicated. It made me think.
It is not like the tap can just be turned off in one hit. I have corrected my actions to manage it better, but not fully corrected the feelings that drove the actions being off in the first place.
She offers me a level of honesty, both ways round, that I have rarely had with anyone. It is OK to admit good days and bad days freely. There is an ability to say whatever is to be said exactly as it is (positive or negative) without that ever seeming to cause bad blood (we dont agree with each other about that much, and yet we have never fallen out), and that’s freeing.
Now, you (plural) could say that those are just good qualities to have in a friend, and I’d more than agree, but it is powerful and contributes to the ‘special’ feeling about her. I haven’t found many people like that in my whole life. Maybe that’s more to do with me than with her or other people. But, having that dynamic with someone is like nectar to me.
Sapiens recently said something about limerence as (I paraphrase) being in love with the version of yourself that you (believe you) want to give. I think that’s a hard thing to tear away from. Moving forward, it is about finding more ways to express that version of me that don’t involve her or another LO.
There are also some ‘rescue’ issues, in terms of me being a very trusted person to her. I don’t want to totally sever that for genuine friendship reasons, so I haven’t done. But we have heard enough on here about how that sort of thing can suck men in, and it is true in my case as well.
A bit like you, sometimes I can ignore all this and just push it far backwards, while at other points there is still a sense of being, as you put it, ‘in the woods’.
(And yeah, logically we should have that expression to go with ‘out of the woods’ … but I haven’t really heard it. People on here use ‘in the weeds’ more often.)
I don’t mean to sound positive or negative about it at the moment, just to say it is still work in progress to figure all this out. I always knew it would be.
Hi Mila and LaR,
I have been following your chat about remaining friends with LO.
Although my siutaion is a little different (we weren’t friends before limerence), I have been experiencing warm and cold feelings towards LO. For me, I think the warm feeling are when I am dealing with him in the abstract (his personality is generally nice warm and friendly, open, and that gives me something that’s a little unusual, I guess). However, each time I have to interact with him for work, I get dark feelings, because he is a nightmare to work with. The latest development is something, a new project at work, which I have volunteered for (at his suggestion) as part of a group of people, and accidentally now end up leading it due to others dropping out. The net result is more work for me and his usual downsides are on full display (always says work things will be easy and nothing to worry about when they very much are – especially if they are done properly, grrrrrr).
Bottom line, if I sometimes appear like its all rosy with my (x)LO, then it isn’t always rosy. Right now, I want to resign and never see him again.
Hi LaR,
„In the weeds“, really? You know I cannot discern English jokes easily 😅it sounds like one to me..
Thanks for the question, I have to think about what triggers the neutral positive without-glasses view, at the moment I can’t really say. They suddenly come. The negative view seems to be sort of a knee-jerk reaction now.
You gave me the reasons why you might be still limerent for her or what it is that makes your connection special (all valid and also valid for wanting to keep this person in your life). Nitpicker that I am, I dare to say that that’s not entirely what I was asking (although your answer was interesting), I was asking what it is about your own feelings/behavior that still feels limerent. Do you think too much of her at home , do you dissect conversations too much, do you get nervous elation when you see her, that kind of stuff…
But you don’t have to answer it, of course. I‘m just being obtuse.
I‘ll work a bit more now and then go to a party that I’ll leave quite soon because people will be in the weeds and that’s not really my thing .
Bewitched,
👋 nice to see you back in the coffeehouse. Is it because you know the welder hangs out here at this time of year?
That side of your xLO that is a disorganised worker and starts things then leans on you/others to complete them seems like a repeated exasperating experience for you (me too!) – you have mentioned it a few times since I’ve been here and it always chimes.
Mila,
Partying on a school night – is that the start of 🔥🍊🍷 season happening over there??
Here is some explanation of ‘in the weeds’ (go beyond the first meaning here):
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/deep+in+the+weeds
I didn’t quite understand your question right first time about ‘still limerent’. To the list of possibilities you gave me – I don’t engage in those behaviours (thinking of her, overthinking, elation etc) all the time – I can go long spells of not doing them. But there is still a very fine balancing point to keep the feelings neutral. Either too much or too little interaction and I slip back towards limerence-lite and do more of the bits you mentioned for a while. She has also been popping up in quite lucid dreams (after a spell of not). These are all sure fire signs that all is not resolved and ‘normal’ here – I’d rather be honest.
This said, it is so much lighter and intrusive than a year ago, so I see it like a bit by bit process thats been going for ages – 2 steps forward, 1.5 back, repeat 🐌🐌🐌🐌 – … but even a snail moves in the end, doesn’t it?
Deep breath and go again.
Mila is partying 🎇 🍹! enjoy.
Bewitched,
Nice to see you here. It is very clear that you are both intelligent and competent, so xLO and others at your work rely on you because you will never drop the ball.
You remind me of a close family member who I aspire to be more like. She is the most reliable person I know.
The next project you are asked to enrol on you maybe need to give it a straight ‘no’ unless you get a big bonus / promotion ! Ha ha.
LaR , Mila,
“in the weeds” is used a lot at my organisation, in reference to getting into too much detail. I personally really dislike the phrase and avoid it.
I like “out of the woods” phrase , which is more for referring to getting out of danger/ problematic situation.
“I can’t see the wood for the trees” is another nice phrase that I really like the meaning of.
Best wishes to us that are close-by but still need to find the snail shell exit and to those who have relatively recently emerged from it albeit slightly disoriented.
Hi LaR, Bewitched, Imho,
so good to hear from you lot! You really do feel a bit like old friends, or a sort of war comrades, even if we‘ve never met.
Ok, I drank some rosé wine which means, since I don’t touch much alcohol, I feel it after only one glass 😂
No, it’s not mulled wine season yet (but soon), it was a birthday. Most of the attendants there are young colleagues without family, so I was one of the first to leave,it will be interesting to see how they all cope at work tomorrow…
I really didn’t know „in the weeds“ thanks for the link LaR! But since Imho dislikes the expression I feel compelled not to use it either;)😘
Bewitched, would you say you are out of the woods, limerence-wise, annoyance at your LOs work ethics aside? One of the differences between our cases might be, your LO is warm but chaotic at work, mine cannot convey warmth but is a brilliant work colleague. I think since we don’t work together any more, I see much less of his best sides, which might be contributing to my negative view of him.
Would you say there‘s still some kind of fond limerent feeling involved in your exasperation about him?
LaR, I still think you are in for the Limmy award of „the only one who managed to keep a decent and warm friendship“. We‘ll see! But it all seems to take so much more time than anticipated , doesn’t it? My own friendship with XLO is still not saved or ended, and I feel it will still take some time, even years.
Hello all,
Thank you so much for replying to my little rant yesterday. I wrote it because I too genuinely wonder whether there is any way of going back to normal with an xLO. At the moment I think that the answer is ‘no’. I have not been overthinking anything with regard to LO, not fantastising, not idealising, not even looking forward to seeing him again in person. He is mostly not a factor in my day-to-day thoughts. So, in answer to your question, Mila, ” would you say you are out of the woods, limerence-wise, annoyance at your LO’s work ethics aside?” The answer is yes. But I do wonder whether, having got to this point, there is something broken in my thoughts with regard to him. I mean, its increasingly the negative feelings which are the strong ones. Because work is a large part of my life and he is especially chaotic at work, I did wonder whether my annoyance is really a hangover from limerence, or just a fact of life when working with an chaotic co-worker? But I do believe my annoyance has a bit more of an edge than it would for a regular co-worker (luckily, he never sees this as this is mostly online, and I don’t feel the need to tell him in order to improve our dynamic, either).
@Imho, you mentioned something being broken inside due to all the nervous energy expended in one of your final LO encounters, I can so relate to this as I think my thoughts are broken when it comes to him and I just would quite like not to have to deal with him anymore! Thank you for the shout-out, too, on my competence. That was nice to hear. Believe it or not, I also have a family member (sibling) like this, extremely competent and adept socially, who I look up to. I realise that one of my quirks is not showing my problems and weaknesses, which is the flip-side of that. I have told you lot on here about problems that I would never admit in real life. But maybe that’s a mistake (apart from limerence which is far too sensitive to tell many / any people about, sigh).
Hi Bewitched,
it sounds like we are at a similar stage, I can say yes to everything you wrote. Definitely out of the woods limerence-wise, but wondering if something is „broken“.
While you aren’t sure if you would be as annoyed at his work style if you hadn’t been limerent, I’m not sure if my XLO is really such a disappointing friend or if there’s the edge to it that you mention.
I can remember phases of our former non-limerent friendship where I was also quite annoyed at him and avoided him for a while, and maybe there would have been this phase of cooling-off even without limerence, once he left work and communication became a matter of texts and I wasn’t exposed to his best side (work) anymore?
„ I think my thoughts are broken when it comes to him and I just would quite like not to have to deal with him anymore!“
I can relate so much!
But do you also get moments of regret like me when I’m cold towards him, or if you picture him really completely gone from your life, or would that be totally ok for you not to have to deal with him anymore at all forever?
Maybe we cannot compare since you haven’t been friends, but it’s interesting for me nonetheless.
Hey Mila,
As you are I are in such a similar headspace I wanted to get back into this, maybe its interesting for some of the others too. In the past year, I had been feeling quite smug about my warm feeling towards (x)LO (“I have this sorted!”), so, I thought it was something important to share with you, LaR, and the others that I have increasingly experienced more dark feelings towards (x)LO post-limerence. Of course, we all go through the classic addiction cycle, where the highs of LO supply are increasingly replaced by the lows of withdrawal. I too went through all of that, but that was ages ago. Then, after that, I got to a place of peace, although even at that time I felt that the peace was a little ‘brittle’ and that (x)LO could really provoke the odd strong emotion. Nowadays I feel that I am in a new phase where the strong emotions I have post-limerence have been negative ones, annoyance with him that I actually ruminate a bit on. I am lying awake at night ruminating on how annoying he is (rather than euphoric highs – as it was in the much earlier days). I think the annoyance is actually correlated to how much work contact I have with him. Now that we are in a lot of work contact over this new project, its gotten larger…
Mila, I am glad to hear that you are getting out and enjoying (?) the work socials again. I myself am in quite a social mood too, lots of catching up with people at night (in Winter – shock horror – I can only do this sort of thing when I am feeling mentally quite good). I should say that annoyance with (x)LO takes up very little headspace, overall, and that I am really only telling you guys about it because I think you’ll find it an interesting comparison for our similar-ish situations.
Enjoy the weekend!!
Hi Bewitched,
yes, very similar. Although I’m now a bit past the „lying awake and fuming“ stage.
I‘ve had that for quite a while. Now I get riled and afterwards I’m disappointed at myself that I let myself get annoyed again. Yes, he lacks certain emotional and communication skills, yes, he‘s somewhat dull and inflexible and maybe also a bit egotistical. But I should stop getting annoyed at that. I‘m more mad at myself than at him that I cannot finally shed this negative energy.
I‘m still interested- if you could dodge him completely and stop working with him, meaning no contact at all any more, would that be ok for you or would there be some kind of regret, are there still also the find feelings for him or are they now gone?
Sorry to badger you like that, it’s just that it sounds so similar to my own state of mind!
I‘m actually socially and work-related very happy at the moment! Like you, XLO stuff doesn’t bother me in day-to-day life at all, even after that somewhat mishap phone call.
Face to face contact coming up soon- I’ve decided to not initiate any contact until I know exactly my travel times and then suggest coffee or something nice. Blank slate, determined not to be annoyed etc…
Is there any way to talk to your XLO and address his chaotic stuff? Maybe he could change something, who knows!
*“fond feelings“, not „find“😶
Dear Mila,
I wanted to answer your question (and you could never badger me!)
You asked “I‘m still interested- if you could dodge him completely and stop working with him, meaning no contact at all any more, would that be ok for you or would there be some kind of regret, are there still also the find feelings for him or are they now gone?
Sorry to badger you like that, it’s just that it sounds so similar to my own state of mind! ”
I think that there might be some regret if I cut contact permanently. But I think this is more because its not something I ever really do with anyone. I mean, I am happy for distance to develop with people in my life who I find difficult. That includes family members, a little more distance develops with the ones who really wind me up. With toxic friendships etc, those have come to a natural end (I am talking 30 years ago) rather than a big decision to never speak again. I think if I did something to bring everything to a definitive end I might regret it because of the good times. However, I would be fine with reducing contact with him and then seeing how things develop. He’s not done anything to me that would make me close the door forever. He is really just quite hard to work with (and I guess your LO is easy to work with but hard to be friends with, my LO is the opposite, as you said before).
Now I am probably going to be picking splinters out of my ass from sitting on this fence 😆
Hi Bewitched,
I see that I didn’t phrase it right. I didn’t mean if you would cut contact if you could, I meant how you would feel if contact would be over for some other, „natural“ reason, like you would by some change in your work system not be working together ever again or similar.
I asked because you said „Right now, I want to resign and never see him again“, and „I just would quite like not to have to deal with him anymore“
I just wanted to know if this was a fond teasing „go away, I hate you, cute-ass“ or if you would really not mind not seeing him again at all- a fond exasperation or a real dislike, that’s what I mean.
Me, I found after browsing through the internet and asking ChatGTP and the like, that I think I could manage this friendship to XLO much better if I would just assume he‘s on the autistic spectrum.
I‘m quite sure he is, but he‘s not diagnosed, and I‘m not an expert person to diagnose this.
But I realized that my resentment would be much less and I could accept his social behavior towards me much better if I would just assume that he‘s a bit autistic.
Maybe because then it would really hit home with me that he just cannot be any other way, that he does care about me but cannot show it in the way I would show it.
When I assume he’s neurotypical, I blame his behavior on insensitivity and egotism because then I would think he could behave more caring and sensitive and just chose not to be because he can’t be bothered and just wants to take and not to give.
It’s stupid really. Why can I not just accept that he‘s like the first interpretation without a diagnosis? I mean I do know that he‘s wired differently, he said so himself.
But I‘m still really not sure how to interpret his lack of real communication and emotion.
Dear Mila,
” I meant how you would feel if contact would be over for some other, „natural“ reason, like you would by some change in your work system not be working together ever again or similar. I asked because you said „Right now, I want to resign and never see him again“, and „I just would quite like not to have to deal with him anymore“
I just wanted to know if this was a fond teasing „go away, I hate you, cute-ass“ or if you would really not mind not seeing him again at all- a fond exasperation or a real dislike ”
I think if everything came to a natural end, I would be okay with it. I think that I would only occasionally experience feelings of mild regret, like “I wonder what (x)LO is doing and how he is?”. I would be curious to hear how everything is going with his youngest (who was a late surprise addition to the family), but I would also be balancing the sheet, somehow, and remembering ‘Gosh he was so chaotic, I’m glad I am not working with him and picking up his mess anymore”. It weird how much I no longer care to try to control or influence his feelings towards me in any way. He was very fond of me, I can tell, but I dont mind if I miss out on this fondness going forwards. Ironically, I will be working with him for the next couple of years on this project which, I mentioned above, (he talked me into it and others dropped out so I will be left with the weight of the work because (x)LO wont be able to do it due to his ADHD (armchair diagnosis of mine)).
“Me, I found after browsing through the internet and asking ChatGTP and the like, that I think I could manage this friendship to XLO much better if I would just assume he‘s on the autistic spectrum”
Yes, I think this really helps me too. I don’t blame (x)LO personally for this chaotic behaviour as I am, pretty sure he is neurodivergent and that he has daily challenges to overcome. It also seems to get worse, sometimes. Your (x)LO sounds neurodivergent and what you realise is that friendship from someone like that looks very different, it just does. He seems to like a ‘little and often’ dynamic with you, whereas what you crave is more deep and infrequent catch-ups (like with your #LO2, forgive me if I got the number wrong, but you know the one I mean?). Nevertheless, I still think that if the dynamic is aggravating to you, then its doing neither of you any good….it might take some time to decide whether its overall worth keeping him as a friend. I have constantly been astonished by my own changes in attitude towards (x)LO, like I said above. So, for me, its best not to rush in or out of anything!!
Hi Bewitched,
Thanks for the insightful post that I could relate to a lot (a lot to?)!
I think you are a bit ahead of me on this path.
I cannot say with certainty I wouldn’t suddenly get gripped by remorse or grief if XLO would vanish completely from my life, probably because he was a friend and I have positive work- and other memories of ten years with him. Actually, I think this fear of sudden revelation how important he might have been is the biggest drive for me to stay in contact and friendship.
As to neurodivergence, you might be a step ahead there too, I still cannot really settle with „he cares but shows it differently“. I cannot let go of the suspicion that he simply can’t be bothered and cares for me only as a source of validation.
Not consciously, of course, but because that’s all he can feel- validation from someone, so he likes that someone, no real care or interest.
No idea if that’s true or not.
In any case, it seems that I cannot (yet or ever?) cope with this friendship and just accept him as a friend as he is. I think, now (without limerence) it would be easier if I would see him on a regular work basis like you, for reality checks.
As it is, I‘m quite comfortably forgetting about him and then getting annoyed at texts or getting reminded by contact of still smarting wounds from past insensitivities of his (because no new experiences with him in the meantime to overlay them).
So, you hit the nail on the head or wherever with
„it might take some time to decide whether its overall worth keeping him as a friend. I have constantly been astonished by my own changes in attitude towards (x)LO, like I said above. So, for me, its best not to rush in or out of anything!!“
Sorry, now I‘ve talked only about myself, just like my XLO. I was on a roll because of contact today regarding plans to meet in a couple of weeks.
I organized it that his SO and a mutual friend will join us, because death of hope in open emotional or honest conversation occurred finally with me, it‘ll be better for all of us if we are not alone.
This work project of yours, will the laurels in the end go to you hopefully, if you did all the work? Is it simply annoying and a lot of work it is it a positive challenge for you?
I think despite the negative feelings you develop for your XLO, you are still more safely and maturely out of the XLO woods than me.
Bewitched and Mila,
It strikes me that you’ve both got distance from the sides you used to find attractive about your xLOs (in Mila’s case him as a work colleague, in Bewitched’s the in- person more social aspect) while still being exposed to the parts of them you find challenging (Bewitched’s xLO’s chaotic working, Mila’s xLO’s texting interactions).
This more one-sided picture you both now get is helpful to really ending your LEs in their own ways. You are both making progress! It is almost better than NC for ending an LE because the contact only issues you reminders in one direction.
Hi LaR,
thanks for putting a positive spin on it! I feel a bit like a failure to not be able to be tolerant of XLOs (probably neurodivergent) behavior. I think it’s slow work to get there, and meanwhile maybe the best to kind of give up on it (not count him as a close friend any more but stay nice and answer texts).
How are you doing? You are still getting both sides of LO, work and social meetings, so good and bad stuff, no?
Mila,
“How are you doing? You are still getting both sides of LO, work and social meetings, so good and bad stuff, no?”
Thank you for asking 🙂. I’m doing pretty well. And yes to both sides. With us, it doesn’t break down neatly into ‘social side better, work side worse’ or anything like that. Our friendship built through work first, and we work well together (everything else set aside). I’d like to be able to see less of her at work, but only because that would give me more of the kind of distance from the LE that you have. It is more than while I have her around me (which work contact makes up most of), I am still getting constant reminders of what I like(d). Speedwagon talked about it as a low-level IV drip and that’s basically it. I don’t think I can completely end the embers without a spell of NC or much lower contact, unless she undergoes a personality transplant of course.
I can reflect that things are in a much calmer place than a year or 6 months ago, and that feels like progress. But I don’t think I’d ever reach Bewitched’s level unless my contact reduced to her sort of level with xLO. I can live with it now though – it isn’t causing me loads of distress – I just know I still have a lot of fond feelings for her. I am almost over-exposed for it to be distressing – it is now kind of ‘just day to day life’ ticking along at this level.
Hope all is well in your world and you aren’t deep in any weeds!
Dear 🐝 🧙♀️ 🐓,
Can your 🐥 chirped a bit of my scanty Stoicism here?
What others (including (x)LOs) say or/and do is ALWAYS out of our control, we can never change them! Is it peace-inducing (but very hard) if we can just observe them (or/and situations) with our LE-free or calm eyes and self-assured/confident actions, but without internal reactions to either peachy “empty” optimism (“everything will work out in the end…”) or dark depressive pessimism (“It will fail no matter what I try/do)?
Your 🐥 is always under or behind your 🪽 … 🫂
Dear Snow (🐤),
I wanted to also say that I can see the benefits of stoicism, of course, but my default and the way that I thrive is on expecting good things to happen. And if they don’t, I can usually see an up-side to that too?
Optimism, perhaps.
I am not a philosopher and do not necessarily know the finer points (although I bought Marcus Aurelius’ meditations, I did not actually read it, I found that my focus was much too skittery for it 🤭)
Bxxxx
Dear 🐝 🧙♀️ 🐔,
Please allow 🐥’s preaching a bit here, to show my deep affection for my 🐔—
“I wanted to also say that I can see the benefits of stoicism, of course, but my default and the way that I thrive is on expecting good things to happen. And if they don’t, I can usually see an up-side to that too?”
To be a Stoic, one just needs to change one word here “I thrive on HOPing — not “expecting”, good things to happen. And if they don’t, I would NOT be surprised and my spirit NOT be bent/broken,” because my logical mind has already prepared for any possibility to take place. That’s my understanding of the difference between “expect” and “hope” and of Stoicism.
I still keep 5% hope on everything I do/undertake, but try 0% expectation (extremely hard). Meanwhile, I logically put 100% of my efforts into my purposeful pursuits, despite the possibility that they may fail 100% for whatever reasons or no reasons.
I’m attempting to sideline responding your post to Mila and Imho, which just intuitively popped up (while totally out of LM, my intuition 🫥 pilots on its own all the time….a kind of scarily accurate…. ☺️ )
LE has made us all to have misjudged/misperceived our LO. Now their “old”/always-there personality (be it chaotic working habits or inept ability to reciprocate/match our wished friendship) clearly SHOW in our LE-free, objective eyes. Intellectually, we know we assessed xLO inaccurately during LE, but now at a visceral level, we finally KNOW/feel our embarrassing mistakes made in LE. Such realization could subconsciously annoy ourselves — our pride, but we either repress it down or subconsciously direct it on xLO or interaction with xLO.
In another words, if we never went in LE with LOs, their habitual shortcomings would not pronounce as loudly as we hear after LE; they would be just shortcomings of another co-worker, which our objective eyes could easily see and handle.
“I realise that one of my quirks is not showing my problems and weaknesses, which is the flip-side of that. I have told you lot on here about problems that I would never admit in real life. But maybe that’s a mistake (apart from limerence which is far too sensitive to tell many / any people about, sigh).”
The same with me. Every 👻 knows my 35% narcissistic traits — dominantly pride (which actually helped me resist the temptation in my LE). To acknowledge my LE mistakes at the intellectual level, even anonymously online, was like 🔪 stabbing at my own backbone, let alone to admit my LE embarrassing behaviors at a visceral level. 🫣
But I did slain the monster of excessive pride by jumping to the bottom of a hermitic “inferno” for a while, and then peacefully accepted all my ignorance and errors in interactions with others (not just xLOs) 🙄 …. Unfortunately, you don’t have such a luxury to realistically detach completely from xLO.
My 🐝 🧙♀️ 🐔, you don’t have broken parts inside you after your LE, but perhaps some Subconscious regrets or annoyance on your “misguided” LE affections and perceptions? Please forgive me if my guess is wrong.
Hello 🐥,
“To be a Stoic, one just needs to change one word here “I thrive on HOPing — not “expecting”, good things to happen. And if they don’t, I would NOT be surprised and my spirit NOT be bent/broken,…”
OK – I can get on board with that. Mostly, when it comes to other people I am pretty fine with accepting them as they are (not expecting too much out of them), and not taking things too personally. I think its okay to assume that people are often going through things which means that your “stuff” is way down their priority list. They are not trying to annoy you, that’s just a by-product (if it happens).
Of course, positivity also breeds positivity – some people also thrive on high hopes (expectations) of them because it shows that we care about them. So, as always, its quite individual and we adapt to different personalities.
Re: (x)LO, its a little bit different because the hopes/expectations are work-related and involve a team effort. My expectations of how he treats me at work (please respect my time and effort!) are not different from how I am with others at work. Conscientiousness is a little bit of a sore point because I discovered that I score high on that – it can really make life miserable when working with people with other personality profiles. Now that I am older and more experienced, I have learned to dodge the personality profiles at work that suck my energies (but take credit for the team results). I simply try not to work with them. I can decide not to work with (x)LO but, if I do, it will take me away from other team members, who I work better with. I just thought it was interesting that I thought I was through all that negative emotion when it came to him, but I am not, even though the negativity is springing from a different source now – its springing from my exasperation of him being just as he is and how he has always been.
“Now their “old”/always-there personality (be it chaotic working habits or inept ability to reciprocate/match our wished friendship) clearly SHOW in our LE-free, objective eyes.”
Yes, you are right. It was always there but I couldn’t see it before. I might have dodged (avoided) him, if I was not limerent for him.
“The same with me. Every knows my 35% narcissistic traits — dominantly pride (which actually helped me resist the temptation in my LE). To acknowledge my LE mistakes at the intellectual level, even anonymously online, was like stabbing at my own backbone, let alone to admit my LE embarrassing behaviors at a visceral level. ”
Me too! We are quite alike in this respect. It’s a good reminder to admit mistakes (the big ones especially).
A great big hug from your 🐔,
Bx
My 🐝 🧙♀️ 🐔,
“Of course, positivity also breeds positivity”
Professionally, Yes. In personal matters, eg. friendship/relations, not always so. Honesty or even vulnerability is more important than positivity in interpersonal relations, imp.
“– some people also thrive on high hopes (expectations) of them because it shows that we care about them. So, as always, it’s quite individual and we adapt to different personalities.”
I’m a bit puzzled here: are you saying Hopes are same as Expectations here? I just looked up again the two words and their difference —
“Expect” implies a strong belief that something will happen, often based on probability or past experience, while “hope” expresses a desire for a particular outcome without the same level of certainty. An expectation is a belief about what is most likely to occur, whereas a hope is a belief in what is most desirable, even if less probable. “
Stoicism stresses this difference which I was mostly mistaken beforehand. All disappointments in the world are brought by expectations, Not Hopes. In many situations, “his/her hopes are crushed” actually means their expectations are not met.
Stoics strive to live with 0% expectations but hopes (according to virtues of the time). Without hopes — one would sink to despairs and possibly commit suicide. Hopes also differ from desires (Buddhists distinguish them) , which I would not discuss here (I think I indirectly debated with Marcia about that).
As I understand them now, one can have high hopes, e.g “reaching the sky” 😁 in romance, but with less/zero expectations simultaneously, because it involves another person who in principle is different/similar from one and many variables during the developing stages. Probability or past experiences of others or oneself may or may not work in a new relationship — no two people are alike but unique, no two relationships alike but unique (unless they follow some existing formulas or Hollywood modules 🙄). The variety of failed/succeeded relationship is the fascination to my curiosity.
I think that while some people can thrive on hopes of them from cared/loved ones or professional associates, (coming with (in)tangible profits), other people can feel pressured or even strained to be often expected (in jobs, surely) in behaving in certain ways or producing certain outcomes, especially in personal relationships. And cultural scripts of all worlds have added (or brainwashed) stagnating, unhealthy, or even detrimental pressures and expectations on people’s personal or professional behaviors. Thus, the phenomenon of cultural rebels or lone wolves mostly in the West, if one can afford it financially.
I personally think that caring for someone (non-job related) would mean NOT adding expectations to other sides (covert/overt hopes are more than fine), which is a form of pressure, isn’t it? Anyway, as an aspiring Stoic, I’ll keep working on reducing expectations of others to zero while pursuing meaningful hopes/dreams with concrete efforts — both words and actions. Romanticism has bred too many lofty ideas without backup of realistic actions or consideration of complex human psychologies.
“I just thought it was interesting that I thought I was through all that negative emotion when it came to him, but I am not, even though the negativity is springing from a different source now – its springing from my exasperation of him being just as he is and how he has always been.”
Why does this sound an echo of Mila’s frequent thoughts? 😀 If one more person in the continent laments the similar sentiments, I’d say it’s the European trend… 😊 — I’m teasing. During LE, all of us blacked out all LO’s flaws or made them “trivial”. Now after LE, our inner eyes 👁️ finally woke up, those shortcomings of LO stick out, more protruding even than before LE! Understandable, understandable!
I think I might have similar negativity if I had to deal with xLO at work after LE. Knowing his habitual chaotic ways, in the future you might want to refuse to directly work with your xLO again.
I hope (we don’t say “I expect”, right?) you’ll have an easy and joyful time during the holiday. 🐥 🤗 🐔
Songs of the Day:
“It’s Only Make Believe” – Conway Twitty (1958)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfMwqlp-js4
“Welcome to My World” – Jim Reeves (1964)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a2prLPghKw
“Make the World Go Away” – Eddie Arnold (1965)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq0Ri9e6SY0
“For the Good Times” – Ray Price (1970)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtISLBZ_8Lg
👩🦰 🏃, I understand why you’re such a helpless romantic! 🤗
I guess I still like some Country melodies 🎶 ; heard the 2nd and 3rd before and still very fond of them 🎵 👍, Life should slow down to that pace….
Limerent Emeritus, Those are some good drinking alone songs. First 7 songs on my yardwork playlist:
Regret – New Order
Bizarre Long Triangle -New Order
How Soon Is Now- The Smiths
I’ll Melt With You- Modern English
Love Will Tear Us Apart-Joy Division
Enjoy the Silence- Depeche Mode
Heroes-Davie Bowie
Since you like Regret, what do you think of The Promise, by When in Rome?
I often listen to these together.
Hi, I like that song too.
Hamlet,
I like your list.
Back in the 80s, I had a CD I named “Pit Music.” I could alter the playlist to slowly circle the drain or drop myself right through the floor.
“I Can’t Stop Loving You” – Ray Charles (1962)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H61YWtExfS0
“…Sing the song, children…”
“Here We Go, Again” – Ray Charles (1967)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRpSzngnBtc
LO and I broke up in Feb, 1987. About 6 months later, Ray Charles came to town. I went to the concert with my recently divorced accountant. She made the comment that it was a pretty small venue for somebody like Ray Charles.
I told her the since Ray was blind, they probably told him he was playing Carnegie Hall.
L.E., I saw him at the Foxwoods casino when it was newish in the mid 90s. Took about 2 songs to get his voice, but then wow! We in the audience were into it and he fed off of that. Of course the songs are great but he was just an enormous performing talent.
ooh I like that list! 🙂
Songs about drinking alone …. over a woman? Well, well, well ….
Whiskey Glasses — Morgan Wallen
https://youtu.be/IBH7IsLsd3s?si=eZkpabYmIObUih1B
^The fact that I know how this song feels in the middle of LE when I discovered it and they share the same first name is a bit ….. personal.
Drinking Them Beer — Thompall Glasser
https://youtu.be/8Zp5EIq4-2E?si=7Y8Jyz-wsHSH2Re1
^I’ve had this conversation with myself about more women in my lifetime than I would like to admit.
I’ll Think Of Something — Mark Chestnutt
https://youtu.be/8mJJNSg7kAA?si=sYRpgpqinmXA6VUm
“I’ll find so many things to do that i wont have the time to think of her
and then if she’s still on my mind I’ll try to drink enough to drown the hurt”
Whiskey — Lullaby — Brad Paisley
https://youtu.be/dQugRzfD4N8?si=g6wAtsxXmGeCKXLF
Tbf this one ^ is about cheating. But I’d probably do the same in his situation.
Why the country gals always singing about keying some dudes truck when they break up while he’s in the house drowning his sorrow in alcohol?
And for the person who mention Conway Twitty I am obliged to post the best Conway song.
Tight Fittin’ Jeans — Conway Twitty
https://youtu.be/xs1kwVeKcRg?si=9faG6HGF-Ap0-XFj
“I knew that I’d been broken by the time we parted ways
And I know I held more woman than most eyes will ever see”
Well if you really want to hear the saddest drinking alone about a woman songs, you have to cross into Mexico, https://youtu.be/YVmJt-71W1U?si=LI1899O-zYQQpR9G
Hamlet
I am glad for the internet lol cause I don’t know a lick of Spanish other than cerveza. But from the English lyrics, yeah, that one is quite a kicker. “Life is roulette, what we all bet on”. Yeah we all bet on that LO will always be there. LO will one understand how we feel one day and reciprocate. Even outside of limerence life is roulette when it comes to love and finding someone. Good song, musically too, even if I could understand the words before looking them up.
“I don’t know a lick of Spanish other than cerveza.”
Adam
Stick with me Brother. I’ll teach you everything I know, (which isn’t much but you would know more than you do now.. 🤣)
I’m all about Spanish and the more I know, the better.. 😁
Especially when it comes to chatting up with muy caliente (very hot) Latina Ladies.. 🥰😍😆
Hello to everyone, and happy Halloween. I have been feeling better, after my latest LE episode of sadness. Thank you to all LwL members.
Today, I am writing to seek your advice on a troubling LO related behavioral trend that I exhibit.
Lets say I see LO from a distance. As soon as this happens, a sudden feeling of panic and anxiety grips me. The feeling stays for a while and then goes away, but does cause me distress. I guess at that moment, my mind is telling me stupid things like to run after LO, which I do not follow up on. This would imply that I would like some contact with LO at that moment, but then it does not happen, so I feel down.
These feelings are on the milder side, but they have become very irritating to me, and I would really appreciate any advice for dealing with this unpleasant side effect of LE.
Thank you, and have a great weekend!
ABCD,
I don’t want to go back to my own case, but from my experiences during LE, each and every single panic attack (triggered by xLO directly) was originated from inside me — the fear. The deep seated fear for the sense of “abandonment” that was originated from my childhood.
3 days after the biggest panic attack in May of 2019, I found Stoicism and have studied and practiced… the rest is the history.
I don’t know your personal background; perhaps, you could search inside you to see if some aged “stones” have not been turned yet?
Thanks Snow. Yes, I am sure there is something in me, based on my previous experiences, that is manifesting itself in terms of anxiety/panic that I feel with respect to LO. This is a useful pointer. I will think about this, thanks.
ABCD
To me, I think this all depends on how bad you want out of the LE. We all probably ebb and flow with our quirky anxieties, when it comes to our LOs.
I have reached the conclusion if I don’t want to possibly see LO, I just don’t go down towards the other end of my workplace. However it is near a main entrance and sometimes I meet my Son down there upon him coming in to work. So the possibility of me seeing LO increases. Which infact I have. I just don’t dwell on it or even post about it here because I’ve gotten to a place where admiring her is all I want to do. Dwelling on what never was will always make me sad.
Its easier for me to just see her, acknowledge how she’s affected my psyche in the past and move on. If I dwell on it, then the possibility of becoming or feeling down, like you mention, increases. This is what works for me in the interim and may not for you but I thought I’d pass it on anyway.
Redirecting towards something or even someone else doesn’t hurt either.
Thanks MJ.
I really want out of the LE now. There have been times in the past when I wanted out, but not enough I guess, so was sucked back in. This time, I have more mental clarity in terms of getting out.
The previous couple of months, when I was feeling pretty good with regards to LO, I was not analysing LO related stuff. As such, LO occupied less headspace. This did lead to me feeling much better, before the latest derailment. I need to just not focus on LO, by focusing on other things. I am sure this will help. LO thoughts can come and go, I will observe them and not get too bogged down.
Oh ABCD,
I know this feeling well. I wonder if it is because I do not quite trust myself not to overstep the very professional boundaries I have tried to maintain.
I saw LO from a distance at an event last month, felt that panic and deliberately positioned myself so that we were not in each other’s line of sight. LO clearly noticed me eventually and texted me but I had put my phone away and by the time I saw the text, LO had left.
I was then filled with remorse for not having gone to say hello, as we have not seen each other for months.
Hi Onyx, this is the kind of thing I would do (have done) if that makes you feel better.
You cannot change what has happened, so try not to dwell on it.
(I have told my ruminating self this advice which is not easy to actually let go of these regret feelings)
And there would be no perfect encounter scenario when in limerence with boundaries. Pleasure and (subsequent) pain in equal measure.
So I hid, which feels rude and cowardly, which is not who I am and not really purposeful either.
At least I wasn’t called out by any mutual acquaintance.
I need a better way of dealing with this as I think we are going to end up in the same room every few months for the foreseeable future. I cannot focus on what I am supposed to be doing if I am skulking around trying to avoid one particular person!
Hi Onyx, Imho and ABCD,
that reminds me of my last LE. For me there was something like cognitive dissonance going on, I couldn’t just be myself and had conflicting drives.
I hadn’t solved the problem during the LE and am still experiencing some of it in contact with XLO, so I cannot really advise.
I can just say that I usually felt better when I was proactively behaving correctly and kindly, even if I was in turmoil inside.
In this special situation of Onyx, I would have felt better to walk up to LO immediately, say hello in a friendly way and generally play-act a bit for myself that I am a generous and socially very adept person who‘s just being friendly, then maybe detach and go to another friend after a while. I hate this feeling of regret afterwards when I didn’t manage to talk to LO.
Although I want to point out that usually one didn’t miss much and there is no need for regret, especially if there are barriers (as Imho said) and there’s anyway nothing supposed to develop. If one thinks of it, what would one have gained by a chat with LO? Only more to ruminate on, and a short elevated feeling with a plunge some time later?
As I said, I haven’t found the solution to this conflict of emotions- wanting to flee but wanting to go there, feeling warmth versus feeling the need for distance.
I guess it’s very individual which kind of behavior/attitude might help and we have to find out for ourselves.
I just want to commiserate, it’s a painful phase.
Hello Onyx. Yes, been there, felt that.
You are right – in my case also, due to natural barriers, I am scared to talk too much to LO, as my feelings would leak out to others, if they have not already leaked out. This is our natural gut instinct warning us to be in boundaries, and in the past, it has helped me not to over step, even if I end up feeling lousy afterwards.
Since some time, I have tried to act more composed when around LO, it is hard to do, but some times, I have been fairly successful in going up, saying hello, and talking a bit. I could see LO did enjoy the conversation. I do this while keeping within boundaries, as other people are always around. I am hopeful that doing this over time will help me see her as a regular person. When I did this 1-2 times, it did increase my confidence with respect to talking to LO.
However, if I am not able to speak to LO, I try not to dwell on it much, and I end up feeling better soon.
As you are going to be in proximity to LO, perhaps you can try to talk, keeping it as professional as possible? All the best!
Dr. L and others,
Since this is an open coffeehouse, if I may, I’d like to give a personal answer to a question posed a while back. The question posed is whether LGBT+ people experience limerence differently from heterosexuals.
I don’t want to speak for anyone apart from myself. As far as I can tell, my limerence (homolimerence) followed a fairly classic limerence pattern. For example, I have no problems relating to the descriptions of limerence found in Fenna’s videos. She could be talking about me as easily as anyone else.
I met someone who seemed wonderful. My brain flooded with dopamine in response to this person. I obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this person, but I wasn’t really conscious of the fact I was thinking about this person, and noticing every little detail about him. Then it seems like some kind of powerful instinctual response kicked in, which Dorothy Tennov would probably rightly or wrongly identify as “the human mating instinct”.
After this “mating instinct” kicked in, I found myself on a rollercoaster ride, replete with soaring highs and devastating lows. I still got pleasure from thinking about this person, but the thoughts became more and more intrusive. I was very moody. I’ve always been shy and reserved, but I withdrew even further into myself. The “crush”, if you like, was no longer under my conscious control.
At some point, after quite a lengthy rollercoaster ride, severe withdrawals started. (My LO was no longer in my life, and I wasn’t getting any ongoing rewards from him). My infatuation therefore didn’t give me pleasure anymore. The “crush” became more yucky than yummy. Horrible, horrible pain every single day of the week. But I couldn’t turn off the super-strong attachment I had formed.
When discussing human sexuality, Camille Paglia says homosexuality isn’t the norm; homosexuality is a challenge to the norm. Mating is about reproduction, so most limerence is heterolimerence. When Paglia talks about male homosexuality being not-normal and a tragedy, she isn’t actually talking about random instances of male sexual behaviour. She is talking about homolimerence – the actual human mating instinct in its entirety aka the whole pattern of one’s romantic attraction.
Paglia argues there’s something deeply tragic about a male (who is designed to mate and reproduce with a female) directing his mating energies at another male. Obviously, this “directing of mating energies” is only tragic if it is involuntary – as it is in certain stages of homolimerence – and beyond the control of the individual male. On the other hand, there’s nothing tragic about sexual attraction and/or sexual behaviour (in anyone) that is purely the product of choice/free will.
Long story short: Dr. L, you saved me from Hell. No, not the Biblical Hell. Rather, the Hell of yearning forever after somebody I can’t have, and the nightmare of wanting something that can never be mine. To me, this is what homolimerence is – homolimerence is the human mating instinct in a given male unwittingly and involuntarily directed toward an unsuitable object. (Unsuitable not due to morality, but because most young men are robustly heterosexual and will never be able to reciprocate the intense feelings of passion the gay male exhibits).
I was listening to Anna Runkle (Crappy Childhood Fairy) the other day. She was talking about how heterosexual women often become obsessed with males who embody the “bad boy archetype”. I too fell for a “bad boy”. Here’s an interesting distinction that could be drawn between males and females who fall for bad boys. For me, obsession with Mr Bad Boy wasn’t a rescue fantasy. (I’m much too lazy and selfish to want to rescue anyone). However, heterosexual women often DO want to save/rescue/somehow rehabilitate Mr Bad Boy. E.g. heterosexual women will buy the bad boy new clothes, make sure he eats three meals a day, help him get a better job, etc, etc. There’s a lot of “saving” going on that the woman herself may not automatically recognise as saving.
To me, it seems like it’s the most natural thing in the world for a heterosexual man’s anima to appear to him either as (a) a damsel in distress, or (b) some beautiful goddess who is basically perfect and oozes sunshine out of her pores. (Runkle says she finds these two female archetypes are straight men’s two top limerent archetypes). It also seems like it’s the most natural thing in the world for a heterosexual woman’s animus to appear to her as a bad boy or “rebel without a cause” type of character. (Maybe he’s expressing a lot of traits women aren’t conventionally allowed to express?)
I think, because I am attracted to the same sex and because my own personality isn’t that mature, the whole “rescue fantasy” in my homolimerence wasn’t as fully developed/visible as it is in men and women who experience heterolimerence.
Runkle also said she’s seeing a rise in young women reporting limerence. She thinks limerence is on the rise among young women because many of these young women are involved in long-distance relationships, largely conducted online. (I guess the young women’s brains can’t really habituate to whatever romantic rewards they’re receiving under extremely unpredictable circumstances?)
Lastly, I’ve been haunting the non-members section of limerence.net to see what jewels of wisdom I might be able to pick up from a different group of limerents. Dr. David Perl (the man who runs the site) writes that Tennov’s definition of limerence is “a state of mind that looks a lot like falling in love, but isn’t falling in love”. 😆😆😆
I don’t know if David was joking when he made this statement. I do detect some humorous undertones in the definition, though, because the definition is a paradox. (The definition is a statement that apparently contradicts itself, only to reveal a deeper truth). Non-limerents and people who have only had positive experiences of limerence won’t understand David’s definition. Anyone who has experienced one or more cases of destructive limerence, however, will understand exactly what the definition is alluding to i.e. the “Trojan horse” nature of the limerence love spell. The thing that promises bliss instead only delivers agony.
David says people often mistake new relationship energy (NRE) for limerence. He sees a lot of that. The consensus on limerence.net seems to be that limerence is NOT new relationship energy, even though neurochemically limerence and new relationship energy are identical. (Yet another glorious paradox to unpack?)
Dr. L, I’ve been on your site for a long time. I have sometimes been irreverent. I apologise if my irreverence has made things awkward for you, or caused confusion for other readers. At times, I have also played major-domo without being asked, making sure things flow smoothly. I don’t know what came over me. I swear, I’m a shy and quiet and retiring person in real life! Actually, I do know what I was doing – I was integrating the older readers with the newer readers. As an INFJ, an atmosphere of social harmony is very important to me.
Dr. L, thank you for the wonderful work you do. Thank you also to your wife, Teika, for allowing you to do the wonderful work you do. I know many a different wife might have felt deeply upset by your midlife limerence, and out of jealousy banned you from having anything to do with the topic, lest it trigger a setback. You are a very gifted writer. You are obviously quite a hard-working writer too, given the amount of rewriting you do. I’ve enjoyed seeing some of my favourite vocabulary end up in your blogs/videos e.g. avatar, belittle, electric. And I’ve learned or re-learned a few words from you too e.g. gaudy, firestorm, paramour. (Did you know paramour rhymes with a ton of other words? It’s great for poetry!)
I don’t know how to say thank you. Obviously, I did a heck of a lot of work on myself before coming to LwL. But you are something of a miracle-worker, too. When I call you old-fashioned, I’m referring to your affable personality and the cultural influences that have shaped your extremely English romantic imagination, not your approach to limerence itself, which is cutting-edge. You have never imposed your values or morals on me. (I actually find you weirdly open-minded). You have been the most gracious and unobtrusive of guides.
In short, after wandering around the Underworld for twenty-five years, I feel like I’m back in the land of the living! Rebirth indeed. 🙂
Happy Re-birthday, Sammy!
Happy Halloween Great Dame. 🎃
Forgot this one from a few years back and I just listened to it again.
I don’t know.. The lyrics made me think of you. So I’ll just ask.
Are you a W.I.T.C.H.?
https://youtu.be/GjNY5HGcopA?si=VzbysleEUHC12_rq
Friend MJ,
“The lyrics made me think of you. So I’ll just ask.
Are you a W.I.T.C.H.?”
No. It’s your side that has all the witches. 🙂
What are you wearing for Halloween? A long trench coat with no pants? 🙂
“What are you wearing for Halloween? A long trench coat with no pants? 🙂”
Marcia
How did you guess?? What’s even better is I’m in a white van too.. 😂
Black wool peacock, black fedora, navy blue jeans, white linen banded shirt and maroon wool vest. Haven’t seen any trick or treaters so far. Maybe that says something about my fashion choices?
I can hear the high school band, not far from here playing the Imperial March.
Adam,
“Black wool peacock, black fedora, navy blue jeans, white linen banded shirt and maroon wool vest. Haven’t seen any trick or treaters so far. Maybe that says something about my fashion choices?”
Umm … is this some kind of costume or what you wear every day? Does it come with a monocle and a cane? 🙂
Outside of going to work it’s what I normally wear. I have in fact been shopping for a cane. Just can’t find one I really like that’s not too ostentatious and would vibe with more than more or two outfits of mine. No monocle since I have to wear glasses.
My wife actually bought the coat for this month for our 26th anniversary. She knows what I like.
Adam,
“Just can’t find one I really like that’s not too ostentatious and would vibe with more than more or two outfits of mine. ”
So the pink and black one I sent you too much? 🙂
Actually I am thinking about a cane I saw online to buy one of my co-workers for Christmas because she loves the color pink. And she shattered her ankle late last year in a fall. So it could be actually practical for her. As for me I think I’d go for a wood one like mahogany or redwood. Though I like a lot of the ivory ones too.
Adam,
“Though I like a lot of the ivory ones too.”
Do you know who the author Tom Wolfe was? You sound like you dress a little like he did. 🙂
I do not Dame Marcia. But if dresses like me he’s got good taste 😉
Adam,
“I do not Dame Marcia. But if dresses like me he’s got good taste 😉”
He had … um … A taste. I’ll just say he was a character. Google him.
MJ,
“How did you guess?? What’s even better is I’m in a white van too.. 😂”
Do you have those creepy curtains over the back windows?
“Do you have those creepy curtains over the back windows?”
Marcia
Yes.. I see you. 👀
Quit trying to look in. You know I’m not wearing any pants. 😂
MJ,
“Yes.. I see you. 👀 Quit trying to look in. You know I’m not wearing any pants. 😂”
I see that. I have my high-powered binoculars. 🙂 Oh, damn. I just bumped into someone. Someone oddly dressed guy with a white cane. 🙂
Adam
Too bad I can’t come over. I’d bring Guinness so we had something to drink while we hang out on your driveway..
What good neighbors do.. 😆
Some black & tans Brother. And if we can push our dollars some Chimay.
I love Black & Tans
But I know I’d pay for all that love, in the morning..
🍻🍻😆😝🤢
A Witch’s Chant
James Hogg
Thou art weary, weary, weary,
Thou art weary and far away,
Hear me, gentle spirit, hear me,
Come before the dawn of day.
I hear a small voice from the hill,
The vapour is deadly, pale, and still—
A murmuring sough is on the wood,
And the witching star is red as blood.
And in the cleft of heaven I scan
The giant form of a naked man,
His eye is like the burning brand,
And he holds a sword in his right hand.
All is not well. By dint of spell,
Somewhere between the heaven and hell
There is this night a wild deray,
The spirits have wander’d from their way.
The purple drops shall tinge the moon
As she wanders through the midnight noon;
And the dawning heaven shall all be red
With blood by guilty angels shed.
Be as it will, I have the skill
To work by good or work by ill;
Then here’s for pain, and here’s for thrall,
And here’s for conscience, worst of all.
Another chant, and then, and then,
Spirits shall come or Christian men—
Come from the earth, the air, or the sea,
Great Gil-Moules, I cry to thee!
Sleep’st thou, wakest thou, lord of the wind,
Mount thy steeds and gallop them blind;
And the long-tailed fiery dragon outfly
The rocket of heaven, the bomb of the sky.
Over the dog-star, over the wain,
Over the cloud, and the rainbow’s mane,
Over the mountain, and over the sea,
Haste—haste—haste to me!
Then here’s for trouble, and here’s for smart,
And here’s for the pang that seeks the heart;
Here’s for madness, and here’s for thrall,
And here’s for conscience, the worst of all!
Hello Everyone and Happy Halloween,
Referencing the photo of the cat contemplating his caffeine addiction…
I, as this sites’s resident cat, feel that I must leave at least one comment on this thread before it closes, because it affects me in multiple ways … caffeine addiction, person addiction, cat addiction.
I will now go and deal with my cat object (CO), much more pleasant than my LO.
What would happen if you transferred your limerence from your LO to your cat?
Dear Norma,
Great to hear from you; I appreciate your most pertinent question!
Alas, I currently do not have a cat — my SO does not allow it! Perhaps I should show her this blog! But that would result in my LO, as well as the cat, jumping out of the bag!
In the past, I’ve had varying degrees of success in transfering LO to CO.
The first was with my LO’s cat some 40 years ago. Both had lovely black hair/fur and green eyes, and I tried to reach into the souls of both, realizing their metaphorical equivalence. But that path just got me deeper into the LE.
The second one, a decade later, was ultimately much more successful. It started with a damsel in distress rescue fantasy of feeding an anorexic girlfriend — she resisted all such efforts. A few years later, I rescued a starving single mother — a cat with kittens — who really did appreciate my efforts. We ended up having a much more satisfying relationship than the one with her human predecessor.
PS. I’ve driven away at least one date with my deadpan style!
Ah, Catcyclist! I am so sorry that you are not able to have a cat. That is a very sad state of affairs.
Dear Cloud,
Thank you for your sympathy.
When you have reciprocation by a cat, your need for reciprocation by LO practically vanishes. So ironically, by denying me the company of a cat, my SO’s responsible for my LE! I’ll do some blame shifting, contrary to Dr. L’s prescription!
On a more serious note, I been thinking a lot about a few things you wrote about LO/LE over a month ago. I’ll have more to say later.
Thanks, as always, for your sage advice.
It’s not the case for me! I have reciprocation from the sweetest, loveliest cat in the world, as well as the sweetest, loveliest husband in the world, but somehow it still doesn’t stop my rescue fantasy for a LO who pines for a cat but isn’t allowed one.
(Now I’m wracking my brains wondering what on earth I could have said that was of use to anyone. I’m glad it was helpful, whatever it was!)
Dear Cloud,
I did a double take when you said “a LO who pines for a cat but isn’t allowed one”! Who deserves the cat more, the limerent or the LO? 😼
Or the limerent who is also a cat? 😼😼
On a more serious note, it seems that you and I have been having broadly similar issues with our respective LOs — some progress, followed by plateaus, which in my case seem more like relapses followed by small triggers or sometimes none at all. A few weeks ago, I was more optimistic; this week, seemingly out of nowhere, the longing has returned.
Also, hugging, or not hugging, has been an ongoing theme for me going back over four decades. Strange as it may sound, it has been one of the biggest drivers of my rumination.
As always, wish you all the best.
I don’t like to share too much identifiable personal information on here, but I will let you in on a secret: I am not a cat.
CatCyclist
While I grew up with cats as pets I never really wanted the responsibility as an adult. But our son that’s still at home, wanted one and now I am the living “my Dad with the cat he didn’t want” meme. She’s my babygirl.
Adam,
” I am the living “my Dad with the cat he didn’t want” meme. She’s my babygirl.”
I have a confession to make. I watch those videos on YouTube. The “dad with the cat he didn’t want” videos. And “my cat’s in love with my boyfriend” and “cat meets his baby (human) brother for the first time” videos. Or “Great Dane discovers tiny kitten has hogged his bed” videos.
Adam,
I don’t view them as babygirls unless they’re kittens of the right gender. I view the lady cats in a more egalitarian manner. But I still objectify them as cat objects (CO). The contradictions, the hypocrisy!
I often wonder why *itch is an attributed dogs than, while I’ve never had a dog, I feel it’s more appropriate female cats. I feed a stray cat just now on the porch and the screen door took a bit too long to close and it got in the house. Our cat saw he/her and was vocalizing to the tune of Beethoven. Ya’ll women so jealous.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ll be clear I’m over her and totally not jealous of him getting to see her and her daughter all the time and I can’t.
Well I guess I can be grateful I can’t relate to this. But I still like it. She’s got a soothing, yet angry voice singing it.
Nobody — Silvia
https://youtu.be/lC_2274dNag?si=LMjnkymSTN6iTfIZ
Why can’t I say “darlin” like Conway Twitty does? Is it’s cause I’m a yankee? Darlin and sugur are my favorite for Momma.
I ran into LO last Thursday night. I told him that I had gotten hit in the parking lot of the local supermarket. He was interested and asked me a number of questions.
I was horrified when he blamed the accident on the ethnicity of the woman who had hit me.
I said, “Well, that’s just an old joke.” He said, “It’s not a joke. It’s real.”
I was appalled. Another black mark against LO.
It has become impossible for me to idealize him after all the offensive things he has said. Hopefully this hastens my recovery.
Norma,
“It has become impossible for me to idealize him after all the offensive things he has said.”
This is screaming ‘Dr L’s deprogramming course’ to me?! You have all the negative evidence stacked up as memories now. If you could find a way to deprogramme the bits where you feel positive about him, or want his affirmation, you could be truly free.
Maybe you’re already doing this for yourself, but I thought I’d throw it out there.
To LaR:
I just told this same story to one of my best girlfriends.
She said, “I used to live in (ethnic part of town), and LO is right. They’re bad drivers. It’s their culture.”
OMG, am I the only sane one here?
Hi Norma,
I’ve been through a similar experience in the past.
The new one’s faults are proviing much harder to find.
I’ll bookmark your comment in case your (or my) will ever falters.
Keep up the great observations!
To CatCyclist:
I really think my feelings for LO are just going to have to burn out from experiences like this one.
The longer I know him, the fewer things there are to like.
Thank you for your ongoing kindness.
Norma,
We’re all rooting for you.
Dear Miss Norma
I hate the way he treats you. You are a wonderful, kind and sweet lady. While I may not understand your limerence for him … he makes angry. And I don’t like that. To quote, and you’re old enough probably get this reference, Bill Bixby “Don’t make me angry, you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry”. You take care of yourself my dear Miss Norma.
To Adam:
I am totally old enough to get that reference, although I never actually saw that show.
I am touched by your anger on my behalf.
*I* don’t understand my limerence for LO, except that he looks like Anderson Cooper and is very sophisticated. Also highly educated. Having said that, he has some VERY goofy ideas for such a smart person.
This latest thing was one of the dumber ones, but he has also mentioned the possibility of the 2020 Presidential election being rigged. I thought, OMG, you canNOT be serious!
Miss Norma
I always feel protective of the women in my life I care about. Some man crosses that line he’ll find out what little of a deterrent a life sentence is for a man my age and health condition.
What is it with you straight gals and Anderson Cooper? Lol My wife fancies him too. Some lady poster here, I think it was Mila, that said the same of straight guys with Jason Statham. As a hard right straight man, I can’t argue with her.
Wasn’t me, Adam!
To Adam:
Jason Statham doesn’t do anything for me.
I have been interested in Anderson Cooper for YEARS.
Imagine my surprise when I realized I had a neighbor who looks like him!!
LO is taller and a little older, but they’re remarkably similar.
Maybe it was Marcia who likes Jason Statham?
Norma D,
“Maybe it was Marcia who likes Jason Statham?”
No. Bald, non-communicative and constipated-looking … not my type at all. 🙂
To Marcia:
I agree with you. I don’t get the adoration.
Anderson Cooper, on the other hand, is FABULOUS.
ND,
“Anderson Cooper, on the other hand, is FABULOUS.”
In terms of gay men, I’d pick Adam Lambert. 🙂
To Marcia:
Adam Lambert–also fabulous.
ND,
“Adam Lambert–also fabulous.”
Right? He’s so charismatic and sexy.
Also, Zachary Quinto. The guy who played Spock in the new Star Trek movies. There’s something about him.
What is it? Some kind of “can’t have him because I am not his preferred sexual preference” forbidden fruit kind of thing with straight gals and gay men? Or are gay men just not as much of clods as us straight guys?
Adam,
“What is it? Some kind of “can’t have him because I am not his preferred sexual preference” forbidden fruit kind of thing with straight gals and gay men? ”
No. Hot is hot. Highest percentage of hot men in any city is in the gay bars. It’s something we women have had to live with. 🙂
“Or are gay men just not as much of clods as us straight guys?”
There’s that, too. 🙂
To Adam:
LO once told me that women are attracted to him, “because I’m not a hard-ass.”
Make of that what you will.
To Dame Marcia and Miss Norma
When it comes to Jason Statham it has zero to do with his looks (unlike Antonio Banderas or Edris Elba) and more the character he plays. Hummingbird is one of my favorites. Fights on behalf of a nun being terrorized by thugs for her good deeds to the homeless and helpless. Right up my “savior complex” alley.
“ There’s that, too. 🙂”
I figured you’d agree with that Marcia. 🙂
Norma
He make think he’s not a hard ass, but best we still not cross paths. I judge him on how he treats you, not his sexual preference.
Adam,
“When it comes to Jason Statham it has zero to do with his looks (unlike Antonio Banderas or Edris Elba) and more the character he plays. Hummingbird is one of my favorites. Fights on behalf of a nun being terrorized by thugs for her good deeds to the homeless and helpless. Right up my “savior complex” alley.”
This is all your take. You’re a man. 🙂
I did think Jason Stratham was very funny in “Spy” with Melissa McCarthy. But I have no interest in his action movies or his characters in them.
You’re assuming it’s an appearance thing. And while appearance is a factor, it’s only part of it. Antonio Banderas plays Nicole Kidman’s husband in Babygirl. Of course, he’s an attractive man but he’s much less interesting than the young guy she has an affair with. And I don’t even think that guy is that good looking. It’s just the way he talks to her. It’s sexy.
To Marcia:
I absolutely loved Jason Statham’s performance in that spy movie with Melissa McCarthy.
Other than that, I have only seen snippets of his action movies, which leave me completely cold.
To Adam:
LO thinks he’s not a hard-ass, but I might dispute that.
It’s true he doesn’t have the same energy as a straight man but his anger and rudeness are very real, and every bit as painful as being dressed down by my ex-husband.
He calls me Dali Madison and I call him Mr. Grinch.
ND,
“I absolutely loved Jason Statham’s performance in that spy movie with Melissa McCarthy. Other than that, I have only seen snippets of his action movies, which leave me completely cold.”
Completely agree. He basically makes action movies for straight dudes. They won’t do much for most women. 🙂 But he had a lot of personality in Spy.
I am pleased to share that I resolved my LE. I have let it go through 3 big steps.
1. Sharing the origins of the LE with LO and releasing that pent up energy with LO – I know this is not always possible.
2. Telling my SO the synopsis of my relationship with LO and reestablishing my emotional home with SO.
3. Realizing I am just not as special to LO as LO was to me and being ok with that.
My limerence was being in love with the love I wanted to give. Not the person I thought I wanted to give it to.
SO didn’t even ask me to do this, but I promised to stop texting with LO, and I will uphold that promise.
All’s well that ends well.
To Sapiens:
What a great turn of events. I am so pleased to hear this.
“In love with the love I wanted to give.”
I am going to remember that. A great way of wording it.
Thank you, Norma. It is close to something else I already knew. Sometimes we fall in love with how someone makes us feel. That is different from truly loving someone else, wanting the best for them, without regard for our personal interest. The best thing is when both happen together and it’s reciprocated but that may only happen once in a lifetime – and it may be unsustainable even then. It may need a defibrillator to shock it back to life.
Separately, I thank you for all your words of goodwill to me and want you to know it is mutual. I had been worried about you – as I would be for my mother if she were going through your pain. Fortunately for her, she is only limerent for her pets.
To Sapiens:
Thank you for your kindness.
I am working my way out slowly.
Sapiens,
That’s some going to do all that and to turn it round so quickly from where you were a couple of weeks ago, to feeling this confident you have ended it 🎩
Well done, Sapiens! Hoping to get to your stage soon!
Lovely to hear your news, Sapiens! And your sentence is very powerful “My limerence was being in love with the love I wanted to give. Not the person I thought I wanted to give it to.” I will continue thinking about this because I think it’s pertinent.
I’m feeling down this morning. Last night I dreamed about hugging LO. I’d thought I was doing better. Our school runs don’t coincide this term so I’ve not seen him much recently, which has helped. I will have to have a think about why he was still on my mind, subconsciously, for him to appear in a dream.
I’ve never had a dream about my LO, so I can’t help you there. I have had a dream about physical connection with someone I have only actually “met” on Zoom and never consciously considered to be attractive before the dream. That was interesting. Who will be the Carl Jung of our century? Paging Dr. L…
Try chatting through your feelings with ChatGPT. It has made my LO obsolete.
Hello Cloud. Sorry to hear you are feeling low.
In my case also, the interaction frequency with LO is much reduced, so that is working to my benefit, less interactions = less rumination.
This reduced frequency will allow you to make progress in getting over the LE, hang in there.
Wish you all the best!
To Miss Cloud:
I dream about LO often and it rattles me.
I actually find I do better if I DON’T spend a lot of time trying to figure it out.
Of course you should do what’s best for you.
Sapiens, ABCD and Norma,
Thank you for your support and helpful comments. I think Norma, yours is the most helpful – it’s better not to spend time trying to figure it out! That just leads to rumination.
The brain chemicals flooded me yesterday, especially as I ran into him later on and spoke for a minute or two. But by evening the fog was lifting, and I accepted it was just a blip, and I started thinking clearly again. I started remembering and accepting that the extreme feelings are an altered state of mind, and not normal. Being attracted to someone is normal, but the obsessive thoughts and feeling out of control are a separate thing and nothing to do with the man himself.
I’ve read that no matter how they are presented in a dream in context, that every face you see in a dream is someone you have seen/met when your conscious. It’s what the dream is trying to tell you more than the face you see that your brain is doing.
The last dream I had about LO was very much about her. And while it was her face in the dream, had it been anyone else’s I still would have gotten the message; let go. For instance while I had seen the gentleman friend she had, back when I had the dream, it wasn’t his face represented in the dream, it was someone else’s. But I knew it was him in context.
Thankfully that was a long time ago. And I haven’t had one since, but yes, they are very rattling.
Rarely have I ever had dreams of LO. Considering how she never leaves my thoughts, one might think I dream of her often but not infact so..
My most recent was a dream of her and I riding in her car on some open road that felt like we were in a desert. I remember the windows were down and her long blonde hair was blowing in almost slow motion. I kept looking at her and no words were being spoken. She just kept driving and smiling and all I was doing was sitting next to her there and admiring. Being in love with being next to her. Then I woke up..
The crazy part to this is the very next night, I actually saw LO at shift change, walking to her car, to get her beverage. It was a little breezy out, so her hair was blowing around. Kind of like it was in my dream.. I just sat in my car in my car, in utter amazement..
Almost eerie. 😵💫🤯
Keep in mind I hadn’t really seen her in months either. So this real-life moment kinda sticks with me now..
Brother
Your description of LO in the dream and reality reminded me of this …
“every time I see you, all the rays of the sun
are streaming through the waves of your hair
and every star the sky is taking aim at your eyes
like a spotlight”
Making Love Out of Nothing At All — Air Supply
https://youtu.be/EA0sk1pykbk?si=KyXoPh3gqg_pxwam
Adam – interesting you say that. I’m not sure I ever see faces in dreams. Even the dream about LO, it was more knowing he was there and how it made me feel that meant I knew it was him, rather than anything visual. I’d never really thought about that before.
MJ – your dream, and your description of her the next day, sounds so romantic it gives me butterflies, even though I don’t fancy women. Us limerents really are screwed.
“every time I see you, all the rays of the sun
are streaming through the waves of your hair
and every star the sky is taking aim at your eyes
like a spotlight”
Adam
That pretty much sums her up. Hair that flows like a waterfall. Eyes that sparkle and I swear I can see almost to eternity.. 🥰
Thanks also for that transport back to middle school. Swear I haven’t heard that one in ages.. 😆
“Us limerents really are screwed.”
Cloud
Think it has to do with that altered state of mind. She just happens to press all the right buttons.
Screwed is right.. 😆
Hi Mila, onyx, imho.
Yes, I was just mentioning something similar to onyx – that I now try to take the initiative and talk to LO, whenever I get the chance, while staying within boundaries.
When I am not able to do this, well, I just try and shrug it off. I do feel down for a bit, but the feeling always passes, so its not too bad.
As you said, this whole situation is hard, and causes quite a turmoil – wanting to talk vs. needing to stay away. Hope it gets better for us all!
Hi abcd, onyx, mila, yes to all of this.
I guess it’s about trying to take control of the situation as much as possible, but not be too fixed on it all playing out exactly as expected.
I found that the infrequency of meetings was putting too much pressure on them, and heightens whatever emotions are going on with me.
Doing things to regulate the nervous system before hand would probably help with thinking more clearly and acting more calmly.
Which I haven’t done! On the last interaction my nervous energy was off the scale. My heart may be irrevocably slightly damaged.
Hi imho, anyx and mila.
“I guess it’s about trying to take control of the situation as much as possible, but not be too fixed on it all playing out exactly as expected”.
Yes, exactly. I have figured that if I plan what I am going to do in the upcoming interaction, I have a much better handle on things. Of course, as you said, the interaction may not pan out as we plan – in that case, I just move on.
“On the last interaction my nervous energy was off the scale. My heart may be irrevocably slightly damaged”.
I can surely relate to the nervous energy part. I am wishing that there comes a time when I can have a conversation with LO in a normal baseline way, but I am not sure if that will ever happen. Till then, I go with maximum NC, and just handle the occasional interaction as best as I can. The interactions themselves are becoming sparse now, so that works well for me.
IMHO, ABCD, Mila,
This conversation is helpful.
I do not think trying to plan the conversation in advance would work for me. I suspect it might cause me to lose a lot of time to rumination. I am also never quite sure if LO is going to be present. The unpredictability isn’t great but the only alternative would be to contact LO in advance and ask.
It does sound, however, like a good idea to take the initiative, go and say hello, and then move on. That would be more in line with my normal behaviour… albeit with the risk that I start leaking emotions all over the place!
The uncertainty of meetings has been a driver for my limerence, I think. All the extra time wondering whether I’ll see him or not, when most meetings are chance rather than planned.
Planning what to say is impossible, and doing so is just another form of rumination. One thing that has attracted me to him is that even in a few short minutes the conversation will flow in all sorts of unexpected directions.
Mainly I just need to concentrate on my other interests, leaving less room in my mind for thoughts of him.
Hi Onyx,
I didn’t mean planning the conversation, that would be a cause for even more vexing rumination and anxiety for sure!
I just meant what you said, going over, saying hello , taking whatever response you get and moving away after a few minutes of talk- taking control of your own behavior, so to say, so that you can feel better afterwards. I would take the risk of leaking emotions for the gain of not feeling this stupid remorse afterwards, but that’s me.
To have found rare “special” feeling about LO, but not other is the (residual) limerencing brain talking.
Finding a version of oneself that dees not involve (x)LO, one NEEDS to completely detach oneself from (x)Lo physically first, mentally second, living in the painful “darkness” — starvation/desperation with NO hope, for at least 3-12 months. True friendship/relationship WILL survive such a mental/spiritual fasting.
To physically save another is chivalrous/heroic, to emotionally support another is kind/compassionate, to psychologically rescue another is egotistical/arrogant wearing the mask of “love”/limerence.
So youtube started throwing songs from Grease in my feed, and I’m like wtf did I do to piss you off that you gotta put music from this movie in my feed? It’s bad enough I actually watched the movie. But then I watched Dirty Dancing with my wife and will forever regret that. And it had a great soundtrack. But then they played this song that I forgot was from Grease. And I thought “if this ain’t a limerence song.”
Hopelessly Devoted To You — Oliva Newton-John
https://youtu.be/r-3NvDp28U4?si=XShvy32mgp_J46Nu
To Adam:
I am surprised you dislike “Grease” so much.
I will counter with my own limerence song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIs5StN8J-0&list=RDhIs5StN8J-0&start_radio=1
Maybe get the taste of ONJ out of your head.
Oooh, I love Obsession. And Grease. (Though I hate the ending.)
To Serial:
May I ask why you hate the ending?
I have my own reasons for hating the transformation of the Sandy character.
But I still like the music. If I don’t over-think the plot, it’s a fun movie.
I hate how Sandy basically changes herself to get a guy—her dress, her values, even ruins her health by starting to smoke—even though he liked her as she was when they first fell for each other. But the rest of the movie is a lot of fun, and I love how the songs take me back to early childhood.
I agree 100%. I have the same issues with the movie.
Although it’s a fun movie if you don’t over-think it.
Just wondering if you ever saw the Dead Sandy theory? You might find it interesting.
To Hamlet:
That theory is too disturbing for me.
I never put much stock in it.
I ran into LO last night and he gave me some leftovers from the dinner he had just cooked. OMG. I thought I was limerent for his house, and Dr. Tom said no (I don’t even want to know what the look on his face was when he said that), now I think I must be limerent for his cooking.
Last winter he gave me leftovers from a prime rib dinner. He gave me the whole cow, practically, and it was every bit as good as what I have had in fancy restaurants.
Salivating again, literally and figuratively.
Angling for that Relapse Limmy Award.
I hate myself.
Back to reading and meditating. Grateful for this website.
Miss Norma
I am glad I was not tripping on something when I watched that music video 🙂 That was a trippy (probably 80’s) music video. But I liked the song. The “I am a possession” line kinda felt like a personal attack. lol
LO, when I worked with her, would always look after me like that. I remember one time she asked me what I wanted for lunch from [restaurant name] that everyone was ordering from for lunch and I told her I wasn’t hungry. Mind you this is in the middle of summer when it was 90-100 degrees outside. She came back from picking up the food and she comes out to the warehouse and tells me lunch is here. I said “But I didn’t order anything for myself.” She said “Well I did. Come inside and eat your lunch. You need to keep up your strength.” To which I had no other choice than to say “Yes ma’am.”
It is always nice when people look after you (especially women, at least for me) and top that off with limerence. And by gum, it made me weak in the knees. She also often, when I wasn’t working the AC office would bring me a water bottle from the fridge to make sure I stay hydrated. And she would scold me, pointing finger and serious look on her face, when she’d see me smoking too much to her liking. Thankfully, both my wife and myself have been smoke free for almost two years now. I’d love to tell her that if I ever see her again.
To Adam:
Thank you for your nice reply. I appreciate your kindness. There is something intoxicating about being offered food by someone attractive.
I hesitated to write what I wrote above for fear of being lambasted.
I already know I am the slowest person here.
No need to rub it in.
Miss Norma
You know I am always here for you. I don’t think anyone would give you grief for what you post here, unless it was some troll in passing, like it did with Miss Lovisa. Which was my second offense. I don’t know how many strikes I can get though but it is what it is. I got your back.
I see Dr. L has dropped a new YT video “Don’t Fight It”. Oh, happy day! I haven’t watched it yet, but I will when I get around to it… 🙂
Being something of a nerd, I really enjoy analysing the stats on Dr. L’s YT videos. I think of his videos as songs released off of an album. Despite the best intentions of person/s involved, not all the videos perform at the same level. Some videos instantly sail right to the top of the charts. Other videos sink without a trace. Some videos are slow-burning productions that may not be hits initially, but draw in large audiences over time, becoming what I like to think of as “cult classics”.
An example of a video that sailed right to the top of the charts is “What Makes Them Addictive?” This is currently Dr. L’s most-viewed video, and I think its success was an easy one to predict. It was always going to be a number one, because few subjects so vividly capture the public imagination.
An example of a slow-burning success story/sleeper hit is “Embarrassing Limerence Mistakes”. This video currently sits at a very respectable number five spot in Dr. L’s discography. People may have not been initially wowed by the subject matter, but the video and its content has steadily gained a loyal following over time. 😜
Examples of videos that sink without a trace are those videos of Dr. L’s that don’t garner massive numbers, despite being up for months. This doesn’t reflect badly on Dr. L. All the videos I have seen have been well-delivered. All the content I have consumed has been of a consistently high quality. The fact of the matter is: some topics simply pique people’s curiosity in a way other topics don’t.
I am tickled pink that the video “Seven Signs of Limerence” is currently Dr. L’s fourth most-popular video, despite being out only a month. The numbers are rising closer and closer to the 100k mark and my prediction is this video will eventually eclipse the success of “Five Phases of Limerence” (Dr. L’s current third most-popular video, a video that has been out for a solid 10 months).
Speaking of YouTube videos and limerence, someone asked this question on one of Fenna’s older videos: “How many people actually use the term limerence?” Wanna know Fenna’s lightning-quick and deliciously apt reply? “Not enough.” Hahaha! I love Fenna’s interesting way of looking at the world. She always makes me laugh, despite covering some rather serious subject matter. 🙂
For me, personally, the jury is still out on whether limerence is (a) early-stage romantic love or (b) a destructive habit. I think there is no firm answer to this question that is consistently true all the time for all people and in all circumstances. I think the answer to this question is heavily dependent on circumstances, and most critically on whether or not limerent and LO can form a healthy bond – as Dr. L himself so astutely points out.
I heard something great the other day on a podcast put out by MarriageHelper. Dr. Joe Beam said limerence isn’t an inherently bad thing. It’s fine if it’s between two people who are single. No, it’s not essential for pair-bonding. And yes, productivity will temporarily decline. However, mutual limerence between two single people who are both free to act isn’t really that big of a deal.
According to Dr. Beam, limerence does become a huge issue, however, when people are already in relationships, because limerence has the potential to destroy/damage existing relationships. Limerence can also be a huge problem for two single people, if the two single people are incompatible/can’t bond.
I appreciate Dr. Beam’s very straightforward way of laying everything out.
Dr. L,
I’m glad you changed the title of your latest video from “Don’t Fight It” to “Retrain Your Brain”. Whew! Spotted that blooper of a heading in the nick of time. You very narrowly dodged a bullet there, my good man. 😆😆😆
I know what you were aiming for with the “Don’t Fight It” title. However, the “Don’t Fight It” title could have been read in all the least helpful ways by a few limerence-prone desperadoes. I don’t think you’re in the business of nourishing the delusions of desperadoes. “Retrain Your Brain” is much more en pointe, much more on-brand, much more consistent with the message of purposeful-living-driven-by-thoughtful-self-awareness that you’ve always espoused. 👍
Don’t worry. You’re in good company. You’re not the only Youtuber who had to rechristen a video recently. I noticed Fenna altered the title of her latest video from “Partner In Love…” to “Your Partner Loves…”, perhaps out of a similar desire to avoid misunderstandings. Although, in Fenna’s case, I think both titles were/are fitting. Both titles make perfect sense (to me anyway). I think she just wanted to go with the most tactful option for her primary audience. 🙂
It’s like 38F and I got to go to the store so I get dressed and put on my coat Momma bought me and there’s dudes in here in shorts. Rant incoming ….
Wear some pants white American males! No one wants to see your hairy legs. They’re an eyesore. Oh and white dudes (cause they’re the only ones that wear them) knock off the sandles! You ain’t a woman, no one wants to see your ugly feet. Thank you for working hard all your life and that’s why your feet, like mine, could cameo on The Thing. Besides it’s 38F outside! We are not women. Our legs and feet are not attractive. r/kinda kidding but not
To Adam:
You make me laugh. It’s warmer where I live, and many men wear shorts year-round.
LO wears shorts ALL the time, but his legs are better than mine.
Once in a summer in a shrine (shoes off) visit with some students, I saw xLO’s feet. I was a kind of “shocked” 🫢 by the crooked and a bit dirty toe nails, which I would never tolerate on my own feet. 😀
His SO was not doing a good job….
To Miss Snow:
Whatever it takes to get turned off!
I remember years ago, I was attracted to a handsome client of my boss.
Then I saw where he had taken a half-drunk cup of coffee and stubbed four cigarette butts out into it.
Ugh. I never found him attractive again.
Miss Norma,
I could not imagine twine my feet with those “crooked” ones- it would pinch my skin. 😏
There is no need for both men and women to do professional pedicures, but daily foot lotion before bed or after shower is not excessive care for anyone. 😀
I think Miss Norma benefits from the fact her LO is homosexual (I hope I am remembering this right) who tend to take better care of themselves than heterosexual guys. I dress to the 9’s (in my humble opinion). But cutting my toenails. Hence why I wear shoes and not sandles
To Adam:
Yes, LO is gay, but he is not a particularly good dresser.
I mean, he has beautiful dress clothes, but he has no place to wear them now.
He used to have to dress up for work, and he has tons of high end suits and ties.
Since he now has his own design business, he doesn’t need to dress up. He is house-poor, and wears the same outdated casual clothes over and over. He wears t-shirts with holes in them that I would have thrown out years ago.
So there’s this weird contrast between this beautiful house, which looks like a museum, and then LO in his old clothes, some of which I would love to sneak into the trash.
His fingernails and toenails are good, though. And he is lucky enough to have a gorgeous full head of hair, combined with being tall and thin. So he can get away with some goofy clothes.
This is comedian Pete Davidson’s opinion about men’s feet. 🙂
“You should never see a guy’s feet, never. Because they’re horrible! They’re just terrible to look at and nobody wants to see them and you should always cover them up. You gotta just always keep socks on, even at the beach. Unless you go in the water.”
Why cannot some straight men courageously break their stereotypical images in self-hygiene? Most of modern male jobs are no longer conducted in farming, hunting, lumbering, or constructing… Is it too much just to put on some lotion and trim nails?
I just came back from that cutie-joe’s store and for the first time saw a tall (above 6’1”), slender, beautiful gay man (not transgender, 30s-40s) totally dressed in a woman’s semi-transparent silky purple shirt tucked in a long flowery, dark reddish, silky skirt and a pair of black, medium high heels (square, bulky kind), no makeups. Unlike the flowery LEG and his bf, this man still looks manly with strong sensible, confident femininity.
At first, I was not used to such a sight in an ordinary grocery store (out of annul gay parade); but my eyes could not turn away from him, from his high, emotionally intelligent look with a slight joyful smile; so much more pleasant than LEG and his bf. Within 5 minutes, he made all other straight people (me included) and our clothes look grayish and shabby…. I couldn’t help 😊…
My INFP Sis. might sigh, “what a waste for us ladies!” 🤭
Miss Norma if I had your LO’s wealth this would be my choice of dress. Unfortunately reality is not the case.
https://imgur.com/a/5NUQ7wx
Dame Marcia
I 100% agree with him.
That’s such a beautiful rosy color and gorgeous outfit!
But the man is too masculine for my taste, I’d never go out with him, no matter what!
To Adam:
LO would look fabulous in that outfit.
Unfortunately, he seems to prefer beige.
He is definitely not a flamboyant dresser.
To Miss Snow:
I wish I could have seen that man. He sounds so interesting!
Miss Norma,
Besides his big, round eyes, slightly curly short hair (above his ears), and clean shave, what struck me about this womanly-dressed young man is his confidence, genuine warmth and smile with a sincere appreciation of the life at the moment. He looked so relaxed, by himself.
By compassion, LEG and his bf at the second hand shop look pale, anxious, serious, just too young and inexperience.
My town is infinitely fascinating, you can pump into literally every kind of human beings walking on the earth… and no one raises his/her eyebrows….unless you’re a tourist.
To Miss Snow:
That man sounds delightful.
What a waste for the ladies, indeed.
To Adam:
You just reminded me of something that happened a couple of years ago. I didn’t know LO very well then. I ordered something through the mail, and they inexplicably included a pair of beige men’s socks from Nordstrom as a thank-you for my order.
Since I have no man to give socks to, I immediately thought of LO.
But I thought that maybe LO only shops at higher-end places? I was worried that Nordstrom wasn’t good enough for him.
I was nervous. So I went over to LO’s and explained that I had received these socks, and I wondered if he would want them? I said, “Is Nordstrom fancy enough for you, Mr. Fancy Man?” He actually said with a straight face, “Oh, I’m not fancy.”
He was thrilled with the socks. I mean, he acted like a little kid at Christmas. He said, “Oh, I don’t have any this color and I need them.” They were BEIGE, for heaven’s sake.
So I am thinking, how come this rich guy doesn’t have any socks???
He’s wearing Prada shoes, FFS.
It took me a long long time to realize that LO is in way over his head moneywise with his house and spends ZERO on clothes. Hence he wears the same old clothes over and over, and apparently has no beige socks.
The reason he has Prada shoes is because they are left over from when he had more money.
He obviously has a huge weakness for expensive houses, as evidenced by his recent debacle with a failed home purchase that cost him $100,000.
Adam,
Unlike you, I live in the world of People of Walmart where both men and women can be equally…. 🤔interesting looking.
The way LO dresses on the weekend, he could almost qualify for the People of Wal-Mart calendar.
Assuming they have a calendar.
You’d never know he was a high-end interior designer.
Miss Snow
Because I’m not a woman. I love feminine clothes … for my wife. We’ve bought shoes, clothes, nail paint together. But I have no interest in anything else than dressing masculine, because I’m a man.
Sir 🎩 🥃 ,
You just displayed my most favorite rosy color on the earth, and I’d buy you the outfit if you were my SO — I swear!
I know you’d look fabulous in the outfit, and I’d go out with you and Mamma for our planned drinks in town. Myself wants to wear this outfit like George Sand (played by Juliette Binoche) did in the movie, Children of the Century”, but I need to lose 5 kg (to 48 kg) for it. Some women look great in men’s clothing as well!
I have dress, jacket, shoes, table clothes, couch, benches in crimson red, but none as gorgeous like the color and style of this outfit! 😋 thank you for showing it, it’s eye candy 🍭 🫂!
To Miss Snow:
When you mentioned George Sand, I flashed back to a movie called “Impromptu,” about Frederic Chopin and George Sand, played by Hugh Grant and Judy Davis.
It was the first time I saw Hugh Grant and I was blown away by his gorgeousness. I barely noticed Judy Davis, unfortunately.
Probably from around 1990.
Miss Norma,
I saw “Impromptu” a couple of times (any books or movies to do with George Sand) and liked Hugh Grant very much, more than Colin Firth who has a rounder face. Hugh Grant is so English!
Judy Davis is a disappointment to play George Sand, she’s a bit prickly. Watch “Children of Century” played by Juliette Binoche – a much better George Sand, but I don’t like de Musse’s actor much.
Oh, now I’m interested. I didn’t know there were movies about George Sand. I’ve read a few of her books and know she was an interesting person. 🙂
Unfortunately, I can’t seem to find anywhere to watch Children of the Century without buying it. Though the Hugh Grant movie looks like fun.
To Serial:
I can’t remember anything about the movie, but I do remember that I enjoyed it.
It was the first time I had ever seen Hugh Grant, this was before “Four Weddings and a Funeral,” and I was completely dazzled by his appearance.
Which isn’t really fair, because that takes away from the value of the movie overall.
I saw Impromptu last night. Yes, it was fun, and I loved how the kids were off having their own adventures unnoticed. I just wonder how much it resembles real life. So last night I bought a Sand collection and her autobiography, which is apparently 1000 pages!
SL 🦇 📕,
Yes, I have that autobiography but never got enough time to read it. Between Proust’s “In Search of Lost Time” and Sand’s self-description, I’d always choose the former first. I read a couple of her books, very touched.
I have CD of “Children of the Century”, and watched it whenever I felt down… Binoche is great! There was another movie version (beautiful cinema-photography) on Netflix or Tubi talking about negative sides of Sand (with her two children present in the movie), who was supposed to ruined Chopin’s life in the movie.
Adam,
“But I have no interest in anything else than dressing masculine, because I’m a man.”
I approve. 🙂
Miss Snow and I have very different taste. That being said, there are some feminine men who can be very sexy. But it would be a side dish you have at special meals like Thanksgiving. Like sweet potato casserole. Not a main dish you have often.
Adam (or Marcia),
Are you talking to yourself? Or this is Marcia? Someone is drinking on this Saturday night…
I like femininity on men, I also like femininity on women, I think the whole would could and should be more feminized!
But looking feminine doesn’t mean one, man or woman, is sissy. No matter with what makeup or clothing, I can never look like a man but I’m more masculine than many men I’ve met, in terms of mental strength and endurance.
I could take a nap 😴 before my gfs come out of a public bathroom — they’re as fast as a 🐌…
Snow,
“Are you talking to yourself? Or this is Marcia? Someone is drinking on this Saturday night…”
Lol. I noticed I did that. And, no, no alcohol! 🙂
“I like femininity on men, I also like femininity on women, I think the whole would could and should be more feminized!”
I totally disagree. We need more masculinity. I mean in the romantic/sexual part of life. Not as a rule, out in the world, at school or work, etc.
Miss Marcia,
Yes, we’re so different. I wish they’re more feminine in romance. Strong masculine men, no matter how handsome, are just not agreeable with glimmer, I can’t pin down specific reasons….
Perhaps my COO was too macho, and I felt more repressed or oppressed by those macho looking/rough guys? As platonic friends, they’re fine.
Snow,
” I wish they’re more feminine in romance. Strong masculine men, no matter how handsome, are just not agreeable with glimmer, I can’t pin down specific reasons….”
I’m the opposite. It’s the differences that create the frisson. I don’t want to date myself. 🙂
“Perhaps my COO was too macho, and I felt more repressed or oppressed by those macho looking/rough guys? As platonic friends, they’re fine.”
Again, I’m the opposite. For friendship, more feminine men are better. They’re easier to connect with emotionally. But the dynamic lacks what’s necessary to heat up the lower half. 🙂
👒 Marcia,
“But the dynamic lacks what’s necessary to heat up the lower half. 🙂”
I think that’s our fundamental difference — I truly care about heating up the higher half, which is much more challenging and fascinating to sustain… 😊. That’s why “wolf-sexy” men would not get my attention, admiration, and forget adoration!
There is no another “self” out of there, everyone is unique and a complete “incomplete-self”. I love myself much better than before LE, than my whole previous life… which I can sufficiently share with a BP, in addition to what I already have…
Snow,
“I truly care about heating up the higher half, which is much more challenging and fascinating to sustain… 😊. ”
Well, for long term … yes, you need the mental and emotional component.
“That’s why “wolf-sexy” men would not get my attention, admiration, and forget adoration!”
I like that. If I like the guy. It’s sexy. It’s primal. They see what they want and they go after it. They own their sexual feelings.
👒 Marcia,
“It’s sexy. It’s primal. They see what they want and they go after it. They own their sexual feelings.”
Anything primal does not come across as “sexy” or appealing to me. I don’t like hunting men, and don’t want to become their pray. They’re terribly boring…
I avoid them at the cost of spending my whole life as an urban “hermit.” I don’t want to anything of a short term, the trend of Instant Gratification never worked and will work for me!
We have gone through many rounds on this topic; there would be no gaining or losing points. 🫂
Snow,
“We have gone through many rounds on this topic; there would be no gaining or losing points. “🫂
I’m not trying to win … but you are the one who brought the topic up. 🙂
👒 👠,
How are you doing with getting over LO-Lite? Running out online dating apps?
It’s the holiday season, which would intensify some limerents’ unrequited longing…
Snow,
“How are you doing with getting over LO-Lite?”
Still bothers me. Purposeful living distracts but it doesn’t get rid of it.
“Running out online dating apps?”
I deleted the profile.
“It’s the holiday season, which would intensify some limerents’ unrequited longing…”
I’m not a big holiday person so that won’t be an issue.
Miss Marcia,
“Still bothers me. Purposeful living distracts but it doesn’t get rid of it.”
I began to think that only a new, more powerful LO/Limmy, in whatever 🎭, can help us, single “limerence-prone desperadoes” with cptsd and mental OCD, finally push a residual LO out of our system, are you inclined to think so?
“I deleted the profile.”
I think you’d have more peace, less anxiety overall.
“I’m not a big holiday person so that won’t be an issue. “
I was a big holiday kid and during my x-marriage. Later, I had to adopt the quieter holiday time after Dad left… without him, holiday was quite different…
But as a “lone wolf”, I don’t feel lonely most of the time; nowadays even less….
Snow,
“I began to think that only a new, more powerful LO/Limmy, in whatever 🎭, can help us, single “limerence-prone desperadoes” with cptsd and mental OCD, finally push a residual LO out of our system, are you inclined to think so?”
I can only speak for myself, but no. I got over the last big LO. Hadn’t been limerent in years before LO-lite showed up.
“I think you’d have more peace, less anxiety overall.”
It wasn’t really causing me anxiety so much as I didn’t have any interest in it.
“I was a big holiday kid and during my x-marriage. Later, I had to adopt the quieter holiday time after Dad left… without him, holiday was quite different…”
So you miss your dad on the holidays?
“But as a “lone wolf”, I don’t feel lonely most of the time; nowadays even less….”
I do but not so much for company. I have people I can hang out with. But for people who know me well.
Miss Marcia,
“I can only speak for myself, but no. I got over the last big LO. Hadn’t been limerent in years before LO-lite showed up.”
Right, I forgot the time lap. Perhaps it was just me, before I dramatically got rid of this mysterious longing from childhood. Without that longing I no longer feel unreasonable anxious or melancholy and can appreciate/enjoy more of ordinary life.
“So you miss your dad on the holidays?”
Not particularly. I miss more of the old-fashioned holidays during my childhood, when kids could roam around freely, playing games with neighbor kids day and night in a tight community.
“I do but not so much for company. I have people I can hang out with. But for people who know me well.:’’
The same here, I’m very unwilling to spend my limited time and energy with so-so acquaintance, and only desire to be with those who know me well or who are able to inspire my imagination and creativity….
I’ll have 5 weeks off during the winter break, but bits of private tutoring.
Snow,
“Not particularly. I miss more of the old-fashioned holidays during my childhood, when kids could roam around freely, playing games with neighbor kids day and night in a tight community.”
It doesn’t seem like people do that anymore — let their kids out of the house to play with the kids in the neighborhood. Not without scheduling it.
“and only desire to be with those who know me well or who are able to inspire my imagination and creativity….”
I meant I don’t really have anyone in my life who knows me well. Not really.
“I’ll have 5 weeks off during the winter break, but bits of private tutoring.”
What will you do with your time off?
Femininity belongs to women. Not men. I get weak knees for tomgirls. Like LO. And Momma. But that’s different. She steals my dress shirt, slacks, tie, and leather suspenders, fine. (In fact please do cause well …). But her clothes are hers. And I ain’t …
I’m still not used to men totally dressed up in women’s clothes or have makeup on, unless they’re already physical transgenders.
But the man of yesterday is “delightful” as Norma puts it. It’s his air — so confident yet at ease, intelligent & knowledgeable yet warm & sincere, tasteful and not sissy at all. He couldn’t care less what anyone around him thinks of him, unlike many uptight/cynical locals. I didn’t have glimmer for him like with Cutie Joe; it took me 3-5 minutes (longer than usual) to “adopt” his dressing… 😀
I still like women in dresses like in those period dramas, except that would prohibit them from walking fast, which is what I habitually do in pants/jeans. I don’t have patience of traditional women and am still learning to slow down, my mind tends to race all over the galaxy… 😊
To Miss Snow:
Did you speak to the delightful man? Did he say anything to you?
I think I would like to adopt him as my Spirit Animal.
Miss Norma,
can you ask you a small personal question: how tall are you? You don’t have to answer me.
I am 5 foot 3 and weigh 110 pounds.
Norma,
My intuition is right again! 😀 (like with Anna’s hair length and LaR’s hair color, and Marcia’s height…)
Your answer is what I intuitively sensed ever since you got online! That’s my normal size (going shorter), as well….
🫂
To Miss Snow:
That is some spooky good intuition you have!
Miss Norma, do you have short straight hair? (I can’t sense its color).
To Miss Snow:
I have my hair cut off in a buzz cut, like a man.
So I guess you could say it’s straight. There is only 1/4 inch.
My hair is brown, turning gray, and I have green eyes.
When I had longer hair, it was wavy.
Norma,
My intuition on your hair length was wrong, I “thought” it’s straight down to ears.
Now chatting with you about those realistic stuff, guess what happened? I just had a long, vivid dream about you! It’s so vivid that I believed it’s true after half-waking up in the dark and carried “the reality” back to sleep until now —
I ran out of my old apartment (for real) for a quick errand and walked fast. Along the parking meters on the sidewalk (just like in reality), I saw two old ladies, a sort of warbling and paused on one parking meter.
You were wearing a beiges trench coat and short straight hair down to your ears. I threw you a look and immediately recognized you’re Norma (match my mental image of you, looking like my last therapist). You seemed to regionalize me, too. I confirmed, “Norma?” You said, “it’s [Snow].” Then you introduced me to your lady friend, she’s a head taller and I have no idea (recollection) who she resembled in my reality.
You two were going to downtown for an event somewhere, and there were several black taxis (unrealistic, always Yellow or Pale Green in my town) parked parallel at the end of the block. We walked together and you two were about to hopping on one of the black cars. I said, “Now, we KNOW each other, do you want to leave your home phone number or email address, so I can chat with you more easily and we can get together sometimes for tea?” You said yes. (cell phone didn’t exist yet when I lived in that apartment).
So you two pulled back to the parking meter. I didn’t have a pen or piece of paper with me, so your lady friend began searching her handbag with her shaking hands.
Meanwhile I chatted with you, “now we know each other, we could travel together during my vacation time.” Your lady friend checked me from head to toe and asked, “are you able to travel alone?” She suspected that I was not single or had a family. So I assured her that I could travel alone whenever I wanted. Then, you said you’d like to go Ireland; I said I’d consider it during my next spring break.
Your lady friend looked a bit suspicious and displeased. Then he told us she didn’t have anything to write on, either. You said you two lived nearby, maybe we could go to your place to get paper and a pencil.
So we walked uptown even further than my old apartment. We came to a very quiet, park-lane like area, and many unattended trees and wide plants lined up along a long dirt path (I could not see the end of it), with only one simple mud house standing by. I was puzzled that there was such a “deserted” nature place in my crowded uptown area! I asked “ how big is your property”. The tall lady said, “we have four acres.” My eyes were almost bulging and I was wandering how you two could take care of such a huge property. No one was around.
Then without ever going inside the house and getting a pencil and paper, I was a sort of waking up (around 3:30am) but still with you standing next to me in your trench coat. I thought it was real… 😴
Believe or not, without completely waking up, I rolled back to sleep again, until just now — finally realized it was a dream! 💭
To Miss Snow:
That is quite a dream. I hope I was kindly toward you in the dream.
I also hope that I had clothes on under the trench coat.
Miss Norma,
It seemed that you were very pleased to have bumped into and recognized me, so much that the tall lady was a bit of jealous, as I detected (she didn’t want me to take you on a vacation to Ireland).
Couldn’t tell what was under your trench coat, but you both had shaking hands leaning on the parking meter poll… I was taller than you in the dream, and you were kind of standing closer to me ever since I ran into you both…you cancelled the event you were about to go and instead showed me your huge, uncared property.
Gee, all details were vivid…. Except our neighborhood in your house’s direction does not have such a “wild” residential property, except a small park with a pond, a waterfall, tons of turtles, cranes, and some pieces of art installations.
It ended when you were standing next to my right arm as if my 🐥. …
😃
To Miss Snow:
That is such an interesting dream. I wonder why both of us had shaking hands? That’s got to have some significance.
I have a million health problems, but that is not one of them.
Miss Norma,
We can’t take dreams literally, maybe metaphysically.
In the dream, both you were in your 80s. Perhaps you will be living with a LF in your 80s.
Now my mental image of you is crystallized, your description won’t change it until I see a realistic picture of you.
To Miss Snow:
I can’t picture myself in my eighties, but I guess I will get there soon enough.
Turning 73 tomorrow.
Very happy birthday, Miss Norma, turning to 13!
To Miss Snow:
No, I am not turning 13, I am turning 12 again, as I do every year.
Miss Norma,
No, I didn’t speak or dare to speak to the “delightful” man, but sideway (I didn’t want to be caught and thought I was staring at him) admired him, not sure if he ever spotted the very common and shy me, who could not help smile while being so amused by his outfit and his aura.
At the end of five minutes of noticing him, I was sampling the chocolate fudge at a small table, and he was walking towards my direction within 2-3 meters. I had to back up fast, in case he caught my stealthy amusement at his confident yet relaxing walking pasture…. 😊
On the way walking home and waiting at the traffic light, a young, tall, slender couple (in their early 30s) dressed up for a party stood next to me. I threw a quick glance at the young man, and immediately saw some insecurity and subtle anxiety in his handsome face (could not spot his lady’s front face because he blocked my view); she’s also tall with a very attractive neck wearing a simple and elegant necklace, with its “diamond” like pendant on its back.
Still, the delightful man with the woman outfit and smiling face is much more attractive than this “dashing”, masculine stallion. I’d like to befriend with the former, who would make you feel at ease…
I’m not gonna dig my heels in this dirt on this one. Lord knows I don’t need to give Dr L any reasons to send me to the corner again; but a woman wearing “masculine” clothes I can deal. Very few women can pull it off though. Like pixie cuts or nose rings. Though ladies wearing suspenders 😏 But not the reverse with men. I’m not gonna judge you or anything. But just don’t be a Marvin Gay Sr over it.
I can’t bear the sight of masculine looking men in women’s clothes or anything feminine; but yesterday it was the first time that a naturally feminine looking man in women’s clothes came into my sight… As I said, it took more 5 minutes to “adopt” it.
🎩 🥃 , I can’t imagine that your beautiful rosy outfit would look good/fitting in this “delightful” man, but the slim man standing next to me at the traffic light, who was in a stylish, striped suit.
Adam,
” Very few women can pull it off though. Like pixie cuts or nose rings. Though ladies wearing suspenders 😏 But not the reverse with men. ”
You do realize that there is a long history of androgyny in popular music. We can all the way back to Elvis Presley on that one. The man wore pink suits and eyeliner. And the women were SCREAMING. (Of course his palpable sexual energy was a big part of that.) Now, can a man pull off “dressing feminine” (for lack of a better term) in real life? I don’t know. But I do think it taps into something almost transgressive.
Dame Marcia
I’m still not keen on you calling me out all the time. I’m a Prince and David Bowie fan and while my mind as a heterosexual male goes wtf? I can still go “hey you be you” but a gal in blue jeans, a cowgirl hat or a gal (possibly the gal that sang in Heart) with a pixie cut in leather? …..
Adam,
“I’m still not keen on you calling me out all the time. ”
I wasn’t trying to call you out. I agree with you. I prefer men to dress and look like men. But there’s a contradiction because I also find both the rock stars you mentioned very sexy. It’s the fact that straight men don’t get it that kind of intrigues me. They’re turning everything you’re supposed to be as a man on its head … and still walking away with a bunch of women.
“Very few women can pull it off though. Like pixie cuts or nose rings.”
Adam
LO can pull it off. 😆 Easily.. She has a very small nose ring.. I find it very attractive. Along with the very small palm tree and heart, tatted on her wrist. Nothing is ever over-done. It always seems to be just the right amount of perfect on her. I love it.🥰
Oh $#!+.. There I go ruminating again.. 😂
MJ out..
Brother
My wife had a friend that use to live around us some years ago that a nose stud and some tattoos and momma would be like “yeah yeah I know you like it” She totally pulled it off. But as a rule for me, piercings other than earrings and tattoos are not a turn on for me. But momma won’t get a nose piercing for me even though I’d like it on her. 😏
I’m loving this conversation! I’d love to see Adam in his Western formal wear. And I’d love to see the feminine guy who Snow saw yesterday. And Norma’s LO dressed like a slob in his flamboyant surroundings.
To Miss Cloud:
LO would look pitiful next to Adam and Miss Snow’s Delightful Man.
He cleans up beautifully, but most of the time he looks like one of Hamlet’s Wal-Mart people.
Aww Miss Norma I would look pitiful next to such a demure woman like you. Clothes can only do so much. You have ethereal beauty long lady.
To Adam:
Flattery will get you everywhere.
I am hardly demure, though.
Today I am wearing a Hawaiian shirt with pink, purple and electric blue skulls and skeletons.
Matisse shoes, and Mona Lisa socks.
LO commented on my “Halloween get-up,” and I said, “No, this is not for Halloween. These are just my regular clothes.”
The first time I went to visit LO, I tried to tone down the crazy and wore a nice blouse and slacks. He answers the door wearing a polo shirt, derpy shorts and even derpier shoes. I thought, “Surely he will excuse himself to go put on some decent clothes.” But nope.
He invited me to sit down but I was too scared. I said, “Which surfaces are safe to sit on?” He said, “All of them are safe to sit on.” I didn’t believe him and refused to sit until he did. I figured the same couch was safe enough.
I have since gotten used to him being a People of Wal-Mart poster boy, but am still cautious where I sit. I am too afraid to touch anything.
Your style sounds wonderful.
To Miss Cloud:
I think a number of people like it; I don’t actually know anyone who has the nerve to dress the same.
I feel like the only woman here but; after 8 years happily married I was visited during a dream by a boss I worked for many years ago, and who I have not thought about at all since leaving the job. It was so unexpected and vivid that I woke feeling like I’d suddenly slipped into an alternate reality. The dream experience has recurred several times since in differwnt ways. Thinking about explanations draws a blank. My question is: I’ve read about the phases of limerance. Right now it feels quite benign and also quite lovely! But is there a way to stop this before progressing through the phases? I’m married with kids and this person is nowhere near my world so there’s no risk I’ll ever act on it but I’m still confused, and worried. What the **** is actually happening to me?!
To Shelley:
You can find plenty of resources here to help you. Even if you can’t act on your feelings, the strain on your mental health and your marriage should not be underestimated.
I don’t know why you’d think you’re the only woman here; I think at least half of us are women?
Hi Norma, maybe I just read the first few comments who were just from men and it’s the impression I got! Either way I’m definitely reassured to be among half rather than the minority 🙂
To Shelley:
I hope you will feel welcome.
Shelley, how strange! I’m not quite sure from what you describe, how much the dream has entered your waking life? Did you have a crush on this boss at the time that you knew him? When he appeared in your dream, was it in a romantic way? And are you having intrusive thoughts about him when you’re awake, or is it just the dreams you’re worried about?
I was already in a steady relationship when I started my job there. A few times I sensed an attraction from him but it was not reciprocated on my part, we actually didn’t part on the best of terms when he overlooked me for a promotion that I should’ve got. I came off my antidepressants about a year ago and that’s when these wild dreams started and I thought at the time it was all wrapped up with that. After the first few dreams I looked him up on LinkedIn and find myself thinking about him; meanwhile my mental health has taken a turn for the worst. In the dream we are always at work and hes always asking me to meet him, sometimes i wake up and sometimes the dream continues where I do meet him and the steamy ending ensues. I have two little kids and can’t deny life is very hard at times. I have pondered whether these dreams are actually a mirror on me, whereby in the dreams I’m young, confident, capable. Perhaps the unfinished business of being overlooked for the promotion has caused all of this. I’m very academic and professional and glean a lot of self esteem from being good at the job. I really don’t know!
My limmerence went into the background when I went on Cymbalta for anxiety. Years later it came back with a vengeance when I went off Cymbalta. No dreams for me though. Going back on Cymbalta had no effect on the LE.
Shelley, this is really interesting! So if I understand it right, you weren’t attracted to him when you actually knew him, but you sensed he might be attracted to you. Fast forward many years, and you’ve suddenly started being attracted to him and thinking about him, even though you’ve not seen him. So the Limerent Episode clearly can’t be anything to do with him, and is to do with your mental health and possibly the side effects of coming off medication. Clearly No Contact won’t be a cure, since you’re already out of contact with him. Your story is very different from others here.
You’ve talked about the dreams, but how much are thoughts of him disturbing your waking hours?
I have just booked with a psychologist to try and work it out. I have noticed that I reach towards the memory of those dreams and feelings whenever I’m in the middle of a hard moment – which at the moment is quite often – because it is somehow comforting. I am still in contact with other people I worked with there at the time and some of them still work there, and occasionally post work related things on LinkedIn or FB, which I spend time scouring in case he’s in any of them. Its is completely absurd and non-sensical and the net result is just a feeling of sadness and possibly self-loathing more for the fact that I no longer look like the person I am in these dreams, post two kids and flash forward 10 years, I long to be the person I was then. And sometimes I want that life more than the one I have currently. It’s all super sad really.
Hi Shelley,
It’s not sad at all. It’s just being human. It just feels sad. But it will get better. I’m glad you’re seeing someone. Another similarity is that I came to see the LO/LE were a stress relief for my marriage.
Marcia,
Moving this to the coffeehouse as we’ve drifted from the addiction theme.
“Fourth level: We made space in our lives for each other.”
Yes, that is huge for me too. Same goes for your example of them remembering you have a medical appointment and offering to pick you up.
“There’s a big difference between what I call a “catch-up friend” and a close friend.”
With long-time friends, a catch-up friendship is usually fine and all I need. I have oId friends I see twice a year, we live our lives in between and all still feels normal when we meet. To maintain a closer friendship with someone who doesn’t live nearby anymore is a big job.
“What do you need that the other person intuits?”
I have told you before that I am more of a listener than a talker (you said it was true for you too). I bring some of it on myself, but this means friendships can slip into patterns of people leaning on me as an ‘ear’. But then they are less good at being an ear themselves, or even seeing that I might need an ear sometimes.
I can also be guarded around new people (I’m made like it – not a choice), but I can be drawn out of that and be much more extrovert if given the right encouragement. It’s not something I want to ask for or to be the subject of a discussion. It’s just something that has to happen or not happen. Figuring out how is not that hard. If someone wants me as a friend enough, they will invest a bit of time in that and make the friendship more even, not slip into that speaker-listener pattern forever.
“But … when we had that talk I realized how myopic he is. He assumed everyone experienced romantic attraction/interest in the same way.”
I’m gonna push this one back at you a bit. He did what you always tell the single male LwLers to do. He didn’t assume – he asked you and (by what you say) he then dealt with the ‘no’ and only needed it to be said once.
Now – maybe this is me, maybe it is a male tendency … but with every glimmer I’ve had, part of the spark that lights the glimmer is a feeling that the other person feels some of it too. Sometimes I’ve been right about that, sometimes wrong, sometimes have never found out. But the idea was always there. Maybe how that guy looked at it with you wasn’t that unusual?
LaR,
“With long-time friends, a catch-up friendship is usually fine and all I need. I have oId friends I see twice a year, we live our lives in between and all still feels normal when we meet. ”
It depends on the situation. If we were close and now we’re catch-up …I can lose interest. And sometimes it can really sting. To be downgraded like that (i.e. my male friend who got the GF).
“To maintain a closer friendship with someone who doesn’t live nearby anymore is a big job.”
Pick up the phone. Are you out of site, out of mind? 🙂
“I have told you before that I am more of a listener than a talker (you said it was true for you too).”
I actually can be quite chatty and friendly but I keep stuff about myself pretty close to the chest. People mistake me for an extrovert sometimes, but I’m not.
“I can also be guarded around new people (I’m made like it – not a choice), but I can be drawn out of that and be much more extrovert if given the right encouragement. ”
So do you like people who are extroverted? I do. I like someone to draw the fun, loud part of my personality out.
“If someone wants me as a friend enough, they will invest a bit of time in that and make the friendship more even, not slip into that speaker-listener pattern forever.
I understand. And I have to admit … it’s sometimes a test I do with new people. When is this person ever going to ask me a question? If they don’t or if they ask me the same questions repeatedly … that’s not good. They’re not listening.
“I’m gonna push this one back at you a bit. He did what you always tell the single male LwLers to do. He didn’t assume – he asked you and (by what you say) he then dealt with the ‘no’ and only needed it to be said once.”
Nope. He did the OPPOSITE of what I said to do. We started off as friends. Hung out as friends. For weeks. THEN he finally said something about his feelings. I have advised that guys ask women out right away. Make it clear it’s a date. Make their romantic/sexual interest known.
But, yes, he did accept my no and we have been able to move forward. Which is no small feat, I know.
“part of the spark that lights the glimmer is a feeling that the other person feels some of it too. Sometimes I’ve been right about that, sometimes wrong, sometimes have never found out. But the idea was always there. Maybe how that guy looked at it with you wasn’t that unusual?”
Well, that’s where the differences occurred. For him, I believe he has to feel an emotional and mental connection before “feelings” develop. So maybe the feelings weren’t there when we first became friends. It doesn’t work that way for me. I have to be physically attracted first. And that’s something that’s determined in the first few minutes of meeting someone. So, yes, we were getting closer, but I saw it as a friendship. He assumed I was like him. Which kind of baffles me. Because I think I experience attraction like most men. And to be clear … I don’t find him unappealing. I just don’t have any real fire to get up on him.
Marcia,
“It depends on the situation. If we were close and now we’re catch-up …I can lose interest”
Yes. For what I said to work, it needs to be a slower and more natural drift to ‘catch-up’, not a sudden switch flip. And the friendship is a long-term one alreaady.
“Pick up the phone. Are you out of site, out of mind? ”
Nope, just male 🙂
“If they don’t or if they ask me the same questions repeatedly … that’s not good. They’re not listening.”
Or if they do that thing where they ask a question and then seconds later, start trying to answer it themselves?! (on your behalf, or with their answer to it)
“Nope. He did the OPPOSITE of what I said to do. We started off as friends …”
How long had you been friends before the conversation? (See next reply)
“So maybe the feelings weren’t there when we first became friends.”
So if he’s one of those people where feelings grow out of friendship, that could be why he wasn’t more direct at first. I’ve had loads of examples of it happening to me – a woman’s ‘hotness’ grows because we emotionally connected. I get you are the opposite way (I simplify here, but you’ll find them ‘hot or not’ early on, which won’t change). It’s another ‘two tribes’ situation, but a different one to whether we are limerent-tribe or not.
LaR,
“For what I said to work, it needs to be a slower and more natural drift to ‘catch-up’, not a sudden switch flip. And the friendship is a long-term one already.”
I could see that. Or the friendship was always at the “catch-up” level and it just stays there. But I have experienced sudden or close to sudden flips. Usually when an SO comes into the picture. And it’s very jarring. That being said … I’ve come to accept adult friendship for what it is. It ebbs and flows. Like the tide. That’s life. To expect anything else … lies disappointment. I’m under no illusion that my male friend may drift away if he starts dating someone. So I don’t totally buy your story about not being able to drift from your LO because you want to be a good friend. Sorry. 🙂 People do it all the time.
“Nope, just male 🙂”
I mean, to be honest, that’s usually what’s happened when I’ve moved. The friendships in the former city tank. Again, it’s what friendship is. It’s based on proximity and a shared phase of life. When that changes for one person, so does the friendship.
“Or if they do that thing where they ask a question and then seconds later, start trying to answer it themselves?! (on your behalf, or with their answer to it)”
That’s because they wanted to tell you their answer! I also listen for how often they suck the conversation back to themselves. Some of that is fine and we all do it. But if almost every time what I say prompts them to talk about themselves (as opposed to hearing me and asking me something about what I’m discussing) … that’s a bad sign.
“How long had you been friends before the conversation? (See next reply)”
Five or six weeks ?
“I’ve had loads of examples of it happening to me – a woman’s ‘hotness’ grows because we emotionally connected. ”
Ok. But you wrote it “grows.” So you noticed it initially ? I’m saying I don’t befriend guys I find hot. I did a quick tally in my head. I’ve had about 8 male friends since high school. (Not all at the same time. At different phases of life.) By “friend” I mean someone I am communicating with and/or hanging out with one-on-one outside of the place we met. So not just a work friend or school friend or group friend. Six of them at some point expressed interest. The seventh said he was trying to let me know he was interested — he was way too subtle — after I came onto him. (The only time I ever hooked up with a guy friend.) It’s hard to buy that all 7 of those guys were the kind in which interest grew.
Marcia,
“So I don’t totally buy your story about not being able to drift from your LO ..”
Oh we’re back on her are we??! 🙂 I think this deserves a Limmy award soon for most debated ‘friendship’ on LwL. I should start running a book between you and Mila on whether this ends well (Mila says she sees it as the best hope of all LwL stories of a friendship surviving an LE, you don’t buy it). Winner gets a box of pencils.
“…because you want to be a good friend”
And nor should you totally buy it 🙂 I’m going to be wordy again now, but that’s to try and give a full view of things. There are three parts to why I don’t drift more – a friend part, a work part and a ‘because I just don’t want to’ part. I do acknowledge that last part, but it doesn’t invalidate the other two.
The ‘don’t want to be a bad friend’ part needs information far beyond what I’ll put in a public forum, about LO and the history of the friendship (I have said all I am willing to on that). This said – of course life would go on for LO if I withdrew. It would be very arrogant to think any other way. Occasionally other posters have suggested I’d be doing her a favour if I did withdraw. But I know 100% it isn’t something she wants, because she actively encourages the friendship, doing far more than I do to keep it going.
Work wise we have a decade and more of co-working very closely. I don’t mean in the sort of ‘occasional chats at the watercooler’ sense, I mean we share a location, and the work we’re paid to do overlaps lots. The work happens quicker and better if we complete stuff in collaboration.
I know what you’ll say back to that – I can pull back on everything else and just talk to her about work. Sure, but think of yourself on the other end if I did that like a switch flip. It’s not like I can easily move to another department or location, and as far as my job goes, I don’t want to. So wouldn’t it look suspicious to her if I flipped a switch? Wouldn’t it set other tongues wagging in the office? Remember here Marcia, I am your classic limerent – have never breathed a word about the ‘feelings’ to her or other co-workers.
It isn’t out there as a reason for pulling back.
The ‘because I just don’t want to drift’ part speaks for itself so I won’t witter on. You might not agree with it but you’ll probably get it.
So I think it is all three things combined.
“But you wrote it “grows.” So you noticed it initially ?”
I mean look, you are a good language detective 🔍🥇
“I’m saying I don’t befriend guys I find hot.”
I’m not that rigid about it. I’ll share a couple of my examples. My LO3 (previous one) and I disclosed within about 2 months, a bit like your friend recently, and looking back I think we sort of skipped that ‘friendship’ stage and always knew it was headed for danger (she told me in as many words that she did).
I also let myself get into a work-based friendship with another woman who I found hot initially. I knew what I was doing. I can’t pin down why, but the danger passed within the first 3 or 4 months, we friendzoned each other, and we have stayed friends for many years since. I crushed on her but wasn’t limerent, and I had no ‘feelings’ left after those first few months. The friendship feels authentic. She is nowadays one of those ‘if you need a lift to an appointment’ type friends.
I saw the danger much more and earlier with those two than I did with LO. My awareness of the danger with LO came many years down the line. I did find her looks and personality attractive from the start, but not at a level where I thought about doing anything about it.
“It’s hard to buy that all 7 of those guys were the kind in which interest grew”
It’s a fair point – not impossible, but unlikely. So what’s your hunch about them then? That the friendships were always aimed at something else, from these 7 men’s point of view?
LaR,
“Oh we’re back on her are we??! 🙂 I think this deserves a Limmy award soon for most debated ‘friendship’ on LwL.”
I don’t think we need to brag about being nominated for a Limmy, do we? 🙂 It’s like being nominated for a Razzie. No one actually goes to the ceremony. 🙂
” I should start running a book between you and Mila on whether this ends well (Mila says she sees it as the best hope of all LwL stories of a friendship surviving an LE, you don’t buy it). ”
I mean, you’re still on here talking about it, aren’t you? 🙂 (I enjoy talking to you. I’m not saying I don’t. Please don’t take that the wrong way.)
“Winner gets a box of pencils.”
Give those to MJ. He likes to do his coloring books. ADULT coloring books. 🙂
“The ‘don’t want to be a bad friend’ part needs information far beyond what I’ll put in a public forum, about LO and the history of the friendship (I have said all I am willing to on that). ”
She’s just a friend. Friendship has no commitment to it like a serious romantic relationship. Or a sense of obligation like a family member. Friendships change all the time. Have you ever had a friend get married or have a baby? That you feel this strong sense of obligation … I’ll just let that sit. 🙂
“Occasionally other posters have suggested I’d be doing her a favour if I did withdraw. But I know 100% it isn’t something she wants, because she actively encourages the friendship, doing far more than I do to keep it going.”
I’m not saying it wouldn’t bother her, but I can’t tell you how many times it’s happened to me. And as I wrote … sometimes almost overnight. I’d put money down it’s happened to her. And I’m guessing she has other friends and other people in her support system.
“Work wise we have a decade and more of co-working very closely.”
You can be around someone — be standing there, be physically there — but checked out. 🙂
“Sure, but think of yourself on the other end if I did that like a switch flip.”
Yeah, it sucked. It really sucked. But my new take on friendship is to not expect much. People have their own lives. They have their own stuff going on. Shows like “Friends” are totally unrealistic.
“So wouldn’t it look suspicious to her if I flipped a switch? ”
We’ve talked about this. 🙂 That all of this could have been avoided if you were just honest and told her why you needed to pull back. You say you’re close. Could your friendship not have had room in it for an honest conversation? And on a very, very selfish level … you may have prompted her to tell you how she feels. Which you say you wanted at some point. 🙂
This is what I would ask of all limerents. Yes, I include myself in that. Do we like the drama? Because we’re creating a lot of it. 🙂 At least in our heads. Do we always have to be fixated on someone? And of course the obvious next question: Why?
“Wouldn’t it set other tongues wagging in the office? ”
Honestly … who cares?
“Remember here Marcia, I am your classic limerent – have never breathed a word about the ‘feelings’ to her or other co-workers.”
Ha! I’m a limerent, too, and I blabbed. Not to many people but to a few. Is there any topic a limerent loves to talk about more than their LO? Maybe 3. All dude friends, of course. Ha! I just thought of another dude friend to add to the list. 🙂 I’m starting to be of the Samantha mindset on Sex and the City. Women are to befriend; men are to have sex with (thought she puts it more crassly :)). I don’t know that men and women can be friends.
“I’m not that rigid about it. I’ll share a couple of my examples. ”
But shouldn’t you? You have an SO. Shouldn’t you avoid befriending women you find attractive and are crushing on?
I’ll just put it out there … it sounds like a workaround. A way for “technically I’m not stepping out” dabbleage.
I’m not writing this to scold you. Just to point out some stuff. You can yell at me. 🙂 I am well aware of all the crap I did wrong.
“I can’t pin down why”
Because you found her appealing.
This is why I wouldn’t be comfortable with an SO having opposite-sex friends. I wouldn’t believe there wasn’t at least one he was crushing on. Or maybe keeping on the side burner as a stand by. Now, the side burner placement could be subconscious.
“It’s a fair point – not impossible, but unlikely. So what’s your hunch about them then? That the friendships were always aimed at something else, from these 7 men’s point of view?”
If I were to guess … yes, there was always some interest there. To what extent, I don’t know. And maybe some knew I didn’t feel the same way or weren’t sure and thought they’d hover for a while until I changed my mind ?
Marcia, you have a firm vote from me…
Hi LaR and Marcia,
butting in here, mainly because I cannot find LaRs post to me😂🙈
but also because of friendship discussions, at the moment that’s on my mind a bit (not only because of XLO friendship, mainly generally, who do you call a friend etc).
„I’m not saying it wouldn’t bother her, but I can’t tell you how many times it’s happened to me. And as I wrote … sometimes almost overnight. I’d put money down it’s happened to her.“
I just think- you didn’t like that much, Marcia, did you? So why should LaR behave like that to her. Just because everyone is doing it doesn’t mean it’s a decent thing to do.
I also get LaRs reasons for wanting to keep a friendly work environment at least. If he goes suddenly cool on her that might provoke a string of unpleasant consequences, from her being suddenly awkward to work with to colleagues asking questions, taking sides, whatever, and that on top of all mental turmoil would be maybe worse than trying to cope with it just inside yourself. You see I still bet on you LaR😂
But maybe we are too similar and Marcia, being differently disposed, can see everything much more clearly from the outside, who knows.
I mean, Marcia has a point in hinting that you take this friendship as too special because of limerence. You feel that you are special to her and she depends on your friendship , so that you’ve got an oligarion to her, but that might very well still just seem so in the light of the limerent view.
Me, I got to the point that I think I have been special to XLO, maybe I still am, but well, it doesn’t seem to work out any more, at least for me, so it would be probably better for him to look for another friend to fill that role for him. I don’t really think I‘m irreplaceable for him. I might be wrong there, I don’t know, but I’m past the point to think I have to do something about it.
Still, I appreciate and respect LaRs way of trying to be a good person and still think, if he manages to pull that off, it’s admirable.
What the hell is an oligarion? I meant obligation.
Mila,
“I just think- you didn’t like that much, Marcia, did you? So why should LaR behave like that to her. Just because everyone is doing it doesn’t mean it’s a decent thing to do.”
I think I answered all of these questions in my post to LaR. In my case, with my former friendships, there weren’t feelings involved. My former friends just got distracted by something else. Yes, it sucks, but it happens. It’s life. Did you go to college? Maybe the summer before college you hung out a lot with your high school friends, but then you came back from your first semester of college for Christmas break and when you got together with your high school friends you noticed the friendships felt different. You were different. They were different. Your lives weren’t intersecting as much. That’s just one example. Friendships shift all the time. But in LaR’s case, he’s limerent. And he has an SO. Limerence is, in essence, falling in love with someone else. (At least that’s what it feels like.)
“If he goes suddenly cool on her that might provoke a string of unpleasant consequences, from her being suddenly awkward to work with to colleagues asking questions, taking sides, whatever, and that on top of all mental turmoil would be maybe worse than trying to cope with it just inside yourself. You see I still bet on you LaR😂”
Well, actually, I recommended just having an honest conversation with her about what he’s feeling. So she understands why he’s pulling back. Barring that, pulling back slowly. From what LaR has written, his LO is something of an iconoclast. Doesn’t get involved in office politics. It doesn’t sound like she’d run to other colleagues and/or involve them and cause issues. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be awkward but it’s doable. Have you never been friends with someone at work and the friendship tanked and you still had to work together? I remember becoming pretty good work friends with a female co-worker at one job. One day she misunderstood something I said and really blew up at me. I wasn’t expecting it and I saw a very volatile side of her I hadn’t seen before — to the point I was worried what she might say and do. After that, I left her alone and didn’t say anything about what happened to anyone. I didn’t want to poke the bear. She would barely speak to me. It was very awkward. Eventually (I don’t remember how long it took) she apologized and I accepted it and was pleasant and professional. But after that, I kept my distance. I no longer trusted her. It is possible to maintain cordiality if you have to.
“I mean, Marcia has a point in hinting that you take this friendship as too special because of limerence.”
Yes. Not really hinting. 🙂
“You feel that you are special to her and she depends on your friendship , so that you’ve got an obligation to her, but that might very well still just seem so in the light of the limerent view.”
Yes
In your case, Mila, you’ve written many posts about your frustration with your LO. Are your expectations of him based on limerence? More than likely, yes. I don’t think he’ll ever be the friend that you want him to be. So you either accept what he’s offering as a friend or you back away. I don’t see any other options. I don’t write that flippantly. I realize it’s much easier for me to say that as I’m not plunk in the middle of it. It’s very common of limerents. I’ve certainly done it. We twist ourselves into pretzels to have our LOs in our lives. Come up with all kinds of mental gymnastics to tell ourselves we’re ok and the limerence is under control. It’s usually not true.
Mila, Marcia,
I think there is truth in what both of you say.
Marcia, I’ll reply to more of your specific points when I’ve got more time. For now, I’ll pick up some main ones that Mila added to. Please know I understand that you are teasing me in places, not trying to scold me – I am not offended by anything you wrote. I too enjoy our conversations and getting your perspective.
If I conveyed it like ‘obligation’, then I got my tone wrong – it isn’t that. Maybe that reflects subconscious ‘storytelling’ by me, because it is easier to make it sound like obligation, than admit the plain truth – which is that LO isn’t actually someone I want to let go of. It isn’t out of *need’, but out of *want* that I don’t distance more. Obligation is a theme for me (we’ve talked about that before), but I don’t feel obligation to LO as a friend. Doing it is a choice I make, rightly or wrongly.
Mila, your points are also appreciated. A big insight is where you said there might be value in believing that I’m not that ‘special’ to LO (something others including Marcia have also said at times). I definitely know I am not as special as the limerent side of my brain would have hoped, or told me I was. I have seen it from a more removed (although yeah, still not totally removed) position for most of this year, if compared to last year. Sometimes it is like I am watching the interactions between LO and I, more than being as ‘in them’ as I was. I’m not saying there isn’t any lim-brain influence, but I can see underneath it more too.
For argument’s sake let’s suspend the idea that I’m in any way ‘special’. Let’s just assume I’m simply a normal co-worker and friend who she mildly enjoys having around. And let’s say that was true before I was limerent, during that time, and after the worst of the LE passed. And let’s assume that the limerent bit on top and any idea of specialness was/is created in my head. Then – if she mildly enjoys having me around, and I have squashed the limerence to a level that I can manage, what’s really the problem here? Apart from one spell in early summer where the LE briefly flared back up again, I haven’t really experienced discomfort. I haven’t written anything on here complaining about discomfort since about Easter. I have just talked about the issues that have cropped up in my head as I’ve tried to negotiate a new normal. But they don’t put me in distress like the 2023-24 lim-variant did.
[from Marcia]
“Could your friendship not have had room in it for an honest conversation? And on a very, very selfish level … you may have prompted her to tell you how she feels. Which you say you wanted at some point. 🙂”
This is a great question that hits at the eternal dilemma. Yes, I *do* feel the friendship had, and still has, room for that conversation to happen, and for us to work through it. I just don’t know that now, after all this time, it would be right. I don’t know what it achieves while all else remains equal. I still feel it is a conversation I’d like to have, and might have, one day. But only after we don’t work immediately together anymore, and in no anticipation of getting her to put her cards on the table either way – purely so I can be honest about what I felt.
LaR,
” Please know I understand that you are teasing me in places, not trying to scold me – I am not offended by anything you wrote. I too enjoy our conversations and getting your perspective.”
Good. I wasn’t trying to be a pain in the ass.
“It isn’t out of *need’, but out of *want* that I don’t distance more … Doing it is a choice I make, rightly or wrongly.”
Yes. We keep the LOs in our lives because we want to. So can we stop pretending it’s to “preserve the friendship” ? 🙂
“A big insight is where you said there might be value in believing that I’m not that ‘special’ to LO (something others including Marcia have also said at times). ”
Have I written that? I don’t know how your LO feels about your friendship. Or how she values friendship in general. Losing a close friend could really sting for her. Or maybe it wouldn’t. I don’t know.
“Apart from one spell in early summer where the LE briefly flared back up again, I haven’t really experienced discomfort. I haven’t written anything on here complaining about discomfort since about Easter. ”
I can only speak for myself … but even though my LE (for my last big LO) did diminish over time, while I was still occasionally bumping into him, it never totally went away. It still bothered me when he’d do the same song and dance of flirting with me and then walking away. I told myself I’d be ok if I saw him every now and then in an effort to go LC. I wasn’t. The LE didn’t end until I removed him completely from my life.
“This is a great question that hits at the eternal dilemma. Yes, I *do* feel the friendship had, and still has, room for that conversation to happen, and for us to work through it. I just don’t know that now, after all this time, it would be right.”
I agree in that there’s no point in bringing it up now. But you may want to ask yourself why you didn’t bring it up before. I’m going to put out a talking point here … you didn’t really want to know. Keeps the LE going. If there’s one thing a limerent lives for, it’s uncertainty. Is that not true?
Marcia,
you are in a roll here concerning providing of important insights.
First one:
„I don’t think he’ll ever be the friend that you want him to be. So you either accept what he’s offering as a friend or you back away. I don’t see any other options.“
Couldn’t agree more! I just cannot yet decide if it’s accepting or backing away.
You see, almost all of contact is now initiated by him, he‘s loyal or stubborn to keep this friendship, and I would actually prefer to be able to accept it as it is ,because isn’t it quite rare to have somebody being that faithful, even if his notion of friendship is different from mine.
But my negative reactions to some of his more negative traits are still there sometimes, so I‘m not quite there yet and the question is, will I ever be.
I think bewitched is right, I will just give it time and see. We are anyway at a big distance now and nothing is urgent, since I‘m not that bothered outside of LwL site or immediately after a rare phone call or similar.
Second, interesting topic:
„But you may want to ask yourself why you didn’t bring it up before. I’m going to put out a talking point here … you didn’t really want to know. Keeps the LE going. If there’s one thing a limerent lives for, it’s uncertainty. Is that not true?“
While I don’t think that’s the main reason for LaR or other people to not disclose (I think the main reason is this why Dr L also advised against it in many cases- that once it’s in the open, there is no control, all kind of consequences could follow that one hasn’t wanted or anticipated) I think there is certainly a grain of truth there! I remember a conversation with XLO where I suddenly got the feeling he might steer towards disclosure, and my knee- jerk reaction was to immediately change the topic. I didn’t really want it, I guess. On the surface I wanted it-or, even more complicated, on the surface I didn’t want it, being all correct and moral, on second layer I wanted it because every limerent craves reciprocation, and on the third I was scared of it. I guess (not entirely sure about motives).
LaR, I think time might be of importance in your case too. If you manage to uphold that equanimity about it that you claim, there might be some point at which you realize that a certain kind of special interest has vanished, or something else will develop like her getting an SO as the most likely scenario.
Ps I meant „on a roll“,
and also forgot to repeat that I still think LaR is the one limerent I can imagine to manage it, since he seems quite mature and thoughtful about it and the situation doesn’t seem near any escalation.
Mila,
“even if his notion of friendship is different from mine.”
This is another good point and something to add to the conversation about adult friendship. What a “friend” is can be defined so differently.
“But my negative reactions to some of his more negative traits are still there sometimes, so I‘m not quite there yet and the question is, will I ever be.”
Why do these traits bother you? Did they bother you before you became limerent? You’ve been friends for a while, right?
“While I don’t think that’s the main reason for LaR or other people to not disclose (I think the main reason is this why Dr L also advised against it in many cases- that once it’s in the open, there is no control, all kind of consequences could follow that one hasn’t wanted or anticipated) I think there is certainly a grain of truth there!”
I always thought this way of thinking was a little drama, tbh. That’s my opinion, you don’t have to agree, but what, exactly, will happen?
If anything, it may be a bad idea to disclose if you have an SO. Gets into ethically murky territory. But, to be totally frank, I don’t see a lot of partnered people bringing that up. Their focus in terms of disclosure is usually on the effect it will have on the LO.
„Why do these traits bother you? Did they bother you before you became limerent? You’ve been friends for a while, right?“
Yes, they bothered me sometimes, but rarely. It wasn’t that important back then somehow (although I remember a phase where I was truly annoyed by some of his traits and everything cooled for a while, but then it smoothed over at some point).
Of course limerent expectations played a big role in creating this annoyance at some of his behavior, but not only that. Because of limerence, contact ramped up and the friendship went up a level (from casual to more close- I think it was you described different levels of friendship recently?), and when limerence was fading I realized that he couldn’t be a friend on that level in the way I imagined friendship on that level.
Also, as I said, back in the past we had regular work contact where he displays his best sides (we work well together and have much in common there), once this fell away, his social differences came more into focus.
„If anything, it may be a bad idea to disclose if you have an SO. Gets into ethically murky territory. But, to be totally frank, I don’t see a lot of partnered people bringing that up. Their focus in terms of disclosure is usually on the effect it will have on the LO.“
Well, it might have the effect on LO that they tell their SO , or even your SO.. also, disclosing to LO without disclosing to SO is a step towards the cheating side- LO and you (universal you) know something that SO is unaware of. But disclosing to SO and LO is really inviting a bunch of consequences. It sounds so easy „just talk about it“, but it isn’t, because suddenly there are three or more persons who know and will each handle the information differently.
Cool – so I learned two new words today – one from each of you. ‘Iconoclast’ and ‘equanimity’. How very ‘serendipitous’ is that? 😀
You two have ramped the pace of this chat up way faster than I can reply. There is much I’d like to reply to, but please bear with me!
Yeah, to ramp it up even more, here I am again- I thought iconoclast was someone who rebels against old rules and stuff? Maybe not, it doesn’t seem to fit Marcia’s description. I have to google it.
Mila,
Yep, i read the meaning as that too. LO is a bit like that to be fair (rebels against rules and conventions) … and Marcia probably remembers me saying that.
Mila,
“Of course limerent expectations played a big role in creating this annoyance at some of his behavior, but not only that. Because of limerence, contact ramped up and the friendship went up a level (from casual to more close- I think it was you described different levels of friendship recently?), and when limerence was fading I realized that he couldn’t be a friend on that level in the way I imagined friendship on that level.”
Limerence definitely skews expectations. But a good question to ask yourself may be … why is this friendship so important? I’m guessing you have other friends. It totally sucks when a friendship tanks or isn’t as close as you hoped, but … you do seem to be hanging onto this one pretty tightly.
“Well, it might have the effect on LO that they tell their SO ”
It’s possible, but I don’t know how likely. Especially in LaR’s case in which they’re good friends. I had a married work friend — so not even a close friend — come onto once. And I never told anyone. Other than some close friends outside of work. What would have been the point?
“.. also, disclosing to LO without disclosing to SO is a step towards the cheating side- LO and you (universal you) know something that SO is unaware of. ”
I think hanging out with an LO and maintaining contact and actively seeking them out is ethically murky. If I had an SO and he told an LO he was backing away because of his feelings … that would be preferable to him maintaining the contact. If I had to pick one.
Mila,
“I thought iconoclast was someone who rebels against old rules and stuff? ”
That’s exactly what it means.
His LO doesn’t sound like she’d give two craps about the people at work. I mean that as a compliment.
Hi Marcia,
I hang onto this friend because he really seems more loyal and constant than most of my other friends. But maybe that’s an illusion too, it’s part of my wavering- is it simply his neurodivergent way to hang onto routines and to hate change (once in his life, always there, simply for his own comfort), not out of „real“ friendship to me? But then, that’s his way of real friendship as he cannot do more, and is a heartfelt as anybody else‘s?
You described yourself how friends are fickle and come and go. He‘s one who stays.
You know, I could also let him go now, actually. It would be a bit sad, but it would be ok for me, it would even be the easier way for me now. I just think I might be overreacting, I should just let things go on without a cut and see if he finally vanishes from my life or not (that’s the privilege I got opposed to LaR, since we are so far apart now).
„ I think hanging out with an LO and maintaining contact and actively seeking them out is ethically murky. If I had an SO and he told an LO he was backing away because of his feelings … that would be preferable to him maintaining the contact. If I had to pick one.“
I actually agree. Though that’s not LaRs case since he already reduced contact and doesn’t seek her out actively, he tries to get it down to a level of casual friendship, I don’t think it’s the same as a limeremt who seeks contact to get his dopamine kicks.
„ That’s exactly what it means.
His LO doesn’t sound like she’d give two craps about the people at work. I mean that as a compliment“
I see! I misunderstood, I thought you meant she doesn’t like to make waves at the office.
Thanks for clarifying!
Mila,
“You described yourself how friends are fickle and come and go. ”
If they don’t come and go, things shift and change. Or we’re in a lot of communication for a while and then they fall off the planet for weeks (maybe months).
“You know, I could also let him go now, actually. It would be a bit sad, but it would be ok for me, it would even be the easier way for me now.”
Idk. It sounds passive. Why does he get to make the decision?
“I actually agree. Though that’s not LaRs case since he already reduced contact and doesn’t seek her out actively, he tries to get it down to a level of casual friendship, I don’t think it’s the same as a limerent who seeks contact to get his dopamine kicks.”
I thought they were still friends. Maybe I was wrong. I wasn’t aware they were only work associates. Because that would be, to me, removing oneself from the LE. Pleasant and cordial at work but not texting/communicating outside of work, not going to each other for support/chats/laughs, not going to lunch, etc.
„ Idk. It sounds passive. Why does he get to make the decision?“
Because I’ve always been the active in this friendship and limerence. It’s me who befriended him, it’s me who ramped up contact, it’s me who reduced contact. I want to lean back and not to extend any energy any more. It’s ok, believe me, I’m not very vexed and bothered. It’s all going to be one way or the other, and it‘ll be ok either way, I guess.
Concerning LaR, I adopt the same attitude- I lean back😂and they will sort it out without the need to create a drama with disclosing etc., I guess. Or better, I hope.
Mila
“I lean back😂and they will sort it out without the need to create a drama with disclosing etc., I guess. ”
No, the moment for disclosure has passed. No need to even discuss it. Everybody on here took the MJ Class of Timing. 🙂
Marcia,
You are truly merciless!🙈
Has MJ still not asked his work friend for a coffee? Haven’t followed all posts.
I‘ll go to sleep now, wish you all a good night.
“Everybody on here took the MJ Class of Timing. 🙂”
https://youtu.be/uYQR5ktq7W0?si=c6Ly3VbNQkPqPkUk
“You can learn a lot from a Dummy”
MJ,
This is the issue. 🙂 Everything you reference is from the ’80s. “Get Down on It” — released in 1981. The crash test dummies campaign — started in 1985.
Lyrics from one of my personal favorite song. It’s from 1991, so it may be a little too contemporary for you. 🙂
“A woman on the radio talks about
Revolution when it’s already passed her by
Bob Dylan didn’t have this to sing about
You know it feels good to be alive
I was alive and I waited, waited
I was alive and I waited for this
Right here, right now, there is no other place I wanna be
Right here, right now, watching the world wake up from history”
“A woman on the radio talks about
Revolution when it’s already passed her by”
Marcia
Another song that had about a 5 minute shelf life for me. Never got in to the Jesus Jones, lol.. 😂 Tbh, I actually resent a lot of the 80s and the way I grew up. I didn’t have a tragic childhood but its one I’d rather forget. I have a picture book memory though, so everything seems to live on as if I’ve never entirely grown up. Which may be the reason I prefer Millennial and Gen Z Women. Can’t look in the mirror and tell myself I’m 54.
You on the other hand are going to give me crap for whatever path I choose, because you love teasing me about my shortfalls and lack of dating strategy. Then playfully reminding me, you and I are the same age.
Don’t get me wrong, I still think you and I could have a very interesting coffee date.. 😆
MJ,
“Another song that had about a 5 minute shelf life for me. ”
I like the message.
“Can’t look in the mirror and tell myself I’m 54.”
I could do it for you. 🙂
“Then playfully reminding me, you and I are the same age.”
Yes, but of the two of us … I’m aware of it. 🙂 And VERY aware it’s not exactly a bonus in the dating market.
“Don’t get me wrong, I still think you and I could have a very interesting coffee date.. 😆”
I agree, but by the time you ask me to go … I’ll be collecting Social Security. 🙂 Oh, I’m sorry … WE’LL be collecting social security. 🙂
Get down on it, get down on it … how you gonna do it if you really don’t wanna dance …. by standin’ on the wall 🙂
Ooh, Jesus Jones! I think my favorite song of theirs is relevant: https://youtu.be/wewIoLusKP8?si=3PGduMPuwtlCo2wQ
Marcia, MJ
“His LO doesn’t sound like she’d give two craps about the people at work. I mean that as a compliment.”
It’s like you’ve met her, Lady Marcia. She absolutely doesn’t give two craps, and she’d absolutely take that as a huge compliment.
“Everybody on here took the MJ Class of Timing.”
I don’t know how much this is too much of a British cultural reference for my LwL friends across the pond, but do you know this song? (7 Days by Craig David)
https://youtu.be/P5lmb5-tnM0?si=3Q9LsUIug2DqM5Et
I’d say it equates to the Marcia Class of Timing. Brother MJ, for those of us who were a bit more … er… slow and delicate … we used to joke about the “365 day technique”. I had a friend who it worked for.
“Don’t get me wrong, I still think you and I could have a very interesting coffee date.. ”
365 days are long gone for you two. JUST.GET.A.ROOM
LaR,
“It’s like you’ve met her, Lady Marcia. ”
I have. She’s me. 🙂
“I don’t know how much this is too much of a British cultural reference for my LwL friends across the pond, but do you know this song? (7 Days by Craig David)”
Sorry. I couldn’t get passed all the auto tune on this.
“Brother MJ, for those of us who were a bit more … er… slow and delicate … we used to joke about the “365 day technique”. I had a friend who it worked for.”
Because the other guys she was dating eventually fell away? Is it a Last Man Standing technique 🙂
“JUST.GET.A.ROOM”
That’d probably take forever, too. I got shows to watch. 🙂
Marcia,
“I have. She’s me.”
Well look, even if it doesn’t end well for me with LO (and yeah, I know all the reasons why it shouldn’t), then I have a lot of respect for that attitude of hers and yours. As I’m someone who is normally more compliant at work and has suffered for that at times, her influence has been nothing but a help to me.
“Sorry. I couldn’t get passed all the auto tune on this.”
Very well. I will make this easier. The key lyric is “met this girl on Monday, took her for a drink on Tuesday, we were making love by Wednesday, and on Thursday Friday and Saturday, we chilled on Sunday”. See, perfect right?
“Because the other guys she was dating eventually fell away? Is it a Last Man Standing technique”
That’s about the size of it
[“JUST.GET.A.ROOM”]
“That’d probably take forever, too. I got shows to watch.”
Brother MJ, that wasn’t a firm no. Step up!
LaR,
“Well look, even if it doesn’t end well for me with LO (and yeah, I know all the reasons why it shouldn’t), then I have a lot of respect for that attitude of hers and yours. As I’m someone who is normally more compliant at work and has suffered for that at times, her influence has been nothing but a help to me.”
I was teasing a bit. For the most part, I am pleasant. I don’t like to not get along and I find a tense work environment uncomfortable. HOWEVER … if someone is being an assclown to me … I’m not going out of my way to be nice.
“The key lyric is “met this girl on Monday, took her for a drink on Tuesday, we were making love by Wednesday, and on Thursday Friday and Saturday, we chilled on Sunday”. See, perfect right?”
Depends on what you want. For a hook up, sure. If you want to actually date and get to know each other, I’d slow it down. Definitely the sex part. Idk. A week or so after you meet you go out for the first date ? There’s going so fast you end up crashing the car. And then there’s going so slowly, new presidents are elected before things get off the ground. 🙂
[“Because the other guys she was dating eventually fell away? Is it a Last Man Standing technique”]
“That’s about the size of it”
Why would you want that? Do you really want to win by default ?
[“That’d probably take forever, too. I got shows to watch.”]
“Brother MJ, that wasn’t a firm no. Step up!”
It’s kind of like one of those offers between two best friends who are 20 years old and they agree that if they’re both still unmarried by 30 … well … why not? 🙂
Marcia,
“I don’t like to not get along and I find a tense work environment uncomfortable. HOWEVER … if someone is being an assclown to me … I’m not going out of my way to be nice.”
I’m very much like you there. Weirdly I talked to LO today about this very thing. She said she only gives it attitude when the person deserves it, not for the sake of it. I believe that. Keep giving it the sass when it is deserved.
“If you want to actually date and get to know each other, I’d slow it down. Definitely the sex part. Idk. A week or so after you meet you go out for the first date?”
I’ve always behaved more along lines of the MJ School.
“There’s going so fast you end up crashing the car. And then there’s going so slowly, new presidents are elected before things get off the ground”
😅 that’s funny but hard to unpick in reality. There is no manual. Each individual set of circumstances is so different.
“Why would you want that? Do you really want to win by default ?”
Not sure. Was talking on behalf of a friend (Not MJ, in this case).
“It’s kind of like one of those offers between two best friends who are 20 years old and they agree that if they’re both still unmarried by 30 … well … why not? ”
At risk of leaving myself wide open here … i had one of those when I was 30 and she was 20 … ‘if in ten years we haven’t…, then…’. Anyway – she got married before it got to be an issue.
I can’t address my post to any specific 👻 any more, or she or he would end up in my dream — Lady Marcia occupied the center of my massy, incoherent dream this morning, I’m so tired now after a supposed sleep 🙄
scene 1:
Lady Marcia and I were roommate, sharing one small room in a small apartment building, seeming to be somewhere in COO I knew/saw once. I wanted to stay in after work in the evenings, but she tried to push me out to date; I did not want to go out dating in the darkness of evenings.
Outside of this room, it was dark and gloomy; the inside was dark, chilly, too. I could see only my single bed facing the door, on the side of this desk with a black desk-copier, but I could not see Lady Marcia’s side in the room.
Scene 2:
We both seemed to be working in a small commercial kitchen with a bunch of stoves in the center of a small room , but there was no cooking or serving activities. Lady Marcie was always there gossiping about others’ and her dating stories. I was always standing in this kitchen, with other 3 or 4 guys (maybe one woman) listening to her amazing dating life.
There was an older, easy-going boss, and my old bisexual colleague/“xLO” (I told here the story about him who married and divorced an Asian girl and then going out with a beautiful young man when I suddenly developed a crush for him due to a dream — no glimmer). In the dream, he was gay and still my friend.
Scene 3:
There were a few unknown “manly” flirty men came and left the kitchen, either as new stuff or customers (?). Lady Marcie went up to flirt with them and went out with two or three of them; but the date didn’t last long. My old colleague was shy in the dream (but flirty and extrovert in reality). I sensed that Lady Marcia wanted to seduce him, but didn’t think she could succeed.
Scene 4:
At one point, the restaurant became deserted, only the boss and this old colleague left and stayed in the quiet, dark storage room (looked like a horse staple) distanced from the kitchen. They lived in there. Not sure where Lady Marcie had gone, too. I was melancholy to see the business was running down.
Scene 5:
The kitchen got bustling again with 6-7 stuff. There was an event going on outside the kitchen, but still no one was actually/actively cooking or preparing food. It seemed there was a French young chief and another short, masculine middle-aged American man. Lady Marcia was busy flirting around, and we all wanted to see whom she’d hook up with.
By then, the kitchen had two rooms with an open door in between. Lady Marcia went into the small room when the majority of us stood around in the old, main room. The French and my old colleague was in the other room, and Lady Marcie went in. All of us held our breath to see if she’d work up to that French, but the plastic windows were foggy due to cooking steam.
Oh, No! She got physically close with my old colleague, but we could not see what was happening due to the foggy window… [blank]
[I didn’t wake up but was brought to a huge safari park with a huge open, desert-looking area with many artificial hills, Some mutated animals, lions, tigers, wolves lived. I am not sure whether I was working in the park or just a visitor.]
Scene 6:
My parent came into the park, and many people was search and scavenge chocolates hidden somewhere. I chatted a bit with my parents, asking whether they enjoyed their visit, they were smiling and taking their time strolling around.
At a point, I was chatting with the park ranger, a short Asian looking man, in the “valley”, this strange-look orange lion was running toward us, looking scary. The ranger just waved his hand and the “lion” walked back. Then another huge, orange scorpion/crab like creature also ran towards the ranger and me, and the ranger raised his hand, the creature also returned to its path…
Then I woke up…
Sorry for typos, got to run to work…
Forgot a detail:
In scene 2: Lady Marcia was actually coaching all of us how to date… — a piece of non-official job in the kitchen. 😆
Needless to say, Lady Marcia wears the exact same face as my mental image of her for over two years… (I described once here)
Got to run 🏃🏻♀️…
Remembered another detail in scene 1—
Marcia went out dating every night and woke me up between 2-3 am while coming home…
No wonder I was tired after waking up… 😆
Miss Snow,
“Needless to say, Lady Marcia wears the exact same face as my mental image of her for over two years… (I described once here)”
She’s gorgeous in your dreams, right? Looks like she’s in her late 20s or early 30s and is thus attracting all kinds of middle-aged male limerent attention? 🙂
I don’t dream about much of anything. I rarely remember my dreams. I’m surprised you would dream about anyone on here as you haven’t seen us IRL.
MJ,
Where is my part-time lover? 🙂 You won’t believe what is now a revival on Broadway? The musical “Chess”! It contains the song “One Night in Bangkok”! We were just talking about that. The musical is from the ’80s! Two guys from ABBA wrote the music. You’re already intrigued, aren’t you? 🙂 Anyway, that chick from the TV show “Glee” is in the revival and she and two guys from the show performed a medley of songs on The Tonight Show last night. They did “One Night in Bangkok.” Made it super cheesy. I am NOT a fan! 🙂
“The musical “Chess”! It contains the song “One Night in Bangkok”! We were just talking about that. The musical is from the ’80s! Two guys from ABBA wrote the music. You’re already intrigued, aren’t you?”
Marcia Dear,
Here I thought you were about to brief me on the new Broadway musical, “The Queen of Versailles” starring Kristen Chenowith.
It showed up on my feed (Because I adored her in “Wicked”) and because one click means I get a thousand other new feeds about it now..
Darn algorithms.. 😆
Why couldn’t you have just followed suit?? 😂
Of course I am not interested in “Chess”, lmao.. As soon as you mentioned 2 Dudes from Abba, the light went off.
I find their music almost deplorable. I can’t imagine this would would merit my needing to attend.. 😆
“Anyway, that chick from the TV show “Glee” is in the revival and she and two guys from the show performed a medley of songs on The Tonight Show last night. They did “One Night in Bangkok.” Made it super cheesy. I am NOT a fan! 🙂”
I think you’re talking about Lea Michele aren’t you? Yeah, I’ve always thought she’s really super cute and not a terrible actress either. But I hear she’s like a total Drama Queen in real life too. Like drama, whiny and high maintenance, which is a major turn off. So I’d have probably ended up hate-watching that. Would probably agree with you completely about the “cheesy” factor..
So cringe.. 😝😆
Speaking of musicals that will be worth seeing. This just landed in my feed.. 🥰
https://deadline.com/2025/11/sabrina-carpenter-to-star-alice-in-wonderland-musical-universal-1236614143/
👒 👠 Lady Marcia,
“She’s gorgeous in your dreams, right? Looks like she’s in her late 20s or early 30s and is thus attracting all kinds of middle-aged male limerent attention? 🙂
Yes, she’s between 20s — 30s, energetic and feisty as I mentally pieced together previously. She never stopped moving in the dream, verbally persuading me to go out in the darkness, coming home in the dawn, describing her dating experiences to us and coaching us the kitchen stuff, and unblushingly and unhesitantly flirting with male strangers in and out of the kitchen… 👀
Picture this: none of us 3-4 kitchen stuff was cooking, eating or drinking, no food or drinks was on any counters, we just stood there mesmerized by her “performance” and forgot everything else in the world! When she was not around for a while, the kitchen almost went out business, only a horse-stable like storage room left with the boss and the gay friend living in it.
I thought my shy, gay friend was “safe”, but she was about to amorously “attack” him in the last montage behind the steamed windows — my Unconscious probably could not bear witnessing whatever consequence might be and suddenly brought me to a sunny, bright, open Safari to “hunt”chocolates on rocky hills, meet my smiling and relaxed father, and safely encounter a bunch of gigantic pinkish-orange lions, tigers, wolves, snakes with feet, scorpions with crab claws…
“I don’t dream about much of anything. I rarely remember my dreams.”
Having vivid dreams has been a part of my identity since very young. We classmates and friends remembered my them, but I forgot most of them, unless they’re traumatic or recorded in my journals. I still remember by heart some dreams from 10 years old on…. I could clearly remember most of my xLO dreams during LE, but now, they’re fading away fast — I can’t remember when and where he said this or that, described in my older posts… 😳 I think this may show that my last LE ember is definitely gone — its memories losing all the emotional colors and “concrete” contents, some related dreams are also scattered with wind…
Based on Jungian theories, most people dream daily but they remember dreams only when their conscious mind is open to dialogue with Unconscious (in forms of dreams), which wants to communicate with the conscious mind especially during stressful times. When one’s shadow is done through various means — dreams provide essential data for the work, one dreams less or even none.
“I’m surprised you would dream about anyone on here as you haven’t seen us IRL.”
Well, in an anonymous forum, one’s physical face is irrelevant; one cannot physically glimmer for others. But posters’ words can definitely draw vivid personality images of complex “colors” in the listener’s mind: some pleasant, some repulsive, some strong, some more vulnerable, some controlling, some LE-originated cranky/grumpy ….
One gets a “peek”/sense at others’ emotions, mind, and soul as long as the speaker speak authentically without fear, without flattery, without validation/empathy seeking… In time, one MAY find kindred spirits / invisible friends / soulmates, but hardly LO without a pair-bond glimmer. Seriously, what do you think?🤔
As discussed in the past, I could NOT mentally piece together most of 👻 👻 ‘s “images”, but somehow I intuitively got a few of their physical features — height, hair color/length, facial shape, etc… If one ghost has got into my dream, then that image is crystallized, unless I see a realistic picture of him or her, which could vastly differ from my mental depiction.
So far, only 6 of you wandered into my dreamland with 6 vivid, detailed narratives… A recent dream was blurry, I could not recall any primary narrative or details but flashes of the 👻’s face, exactly as before….
I think/suspect that such a phenomenon probably indicates that my chats with them have produced important psychological impact — in a COO idiom, (their existence and my interaction with them) have poked a bee’s hive in my Unconscious, with or without my conscious awareness…. Needless to say, analysis of those dreams fascinates the dreamer… 😴
What is your new “work” situation? Have you changed the job yet?
A typo: “When one’s shadow WORK is done through various means….”
MJ
“Here I thought you were about to brief me on the new Broadway musical, “The Queen of Versailles” starring Kristen Chenowith.
It showed up on my feed (Because I adored her in “Wicked”) and because one click means I get a thousand other new feeds about it now..”
You’re making fun of ABBA but you’ll sit through “Wicked”? 🙂 I don’t really like musicals. I’m not all that into ABBA, but I do like disco.
“I think you’re talking about Lea Michele aren’t you? Yeah, I’ve always thought she’s really super cute and not a terrible actress either.”
Are you able to watch a show in which you’re not finding someone hot? I can’t imagine being married to you and trying to sit down and watch a movie. 🙂
Speaking of which … whilst you grease up the TV, I’ll watch my “Sex and the City” clips with Mikhail Baryshnikov on my laptop. There are a ton of guys on that show, but when he shows up, the contest is over. Everyone else can just go home. He’s so damn sexy.
Miss Snow,
“Yes, she’s between 20s — 30s, energetic and feisty as I mentally pieced together previously. She never stopped moving in the dream, verbally persuading me to go out in the darkness, coming home in the dawn, describing her dating experiences to us and coaching us the kitchen stuff, and unblushingly and unhesitantly flirting with male strangers in and out of the kitchen… 👀”
I like the description, although it does not sound like me. 🙂
“…meet my smiling and relaxed father, and safely encounter a bunch of gigantic pinkish-orange lions, tigers, wolves, snakes with feet, scorpions with crab claws…”
Your dad was there? That’s nice to see him again. I have had dreams where my deceased relatives appear.
“Having vivid dreams has been a part of my identity since very young. ”
Do you sleep deeply? I have trouble sleeping so I may not get into the deep REM state ?
“I can’t remember when and where he said this or that, described in my older posts… 😳 I think this may show that my last LE ember is definitely gone — its memories losing all the emotional colors and “concrete” contents, some related dreams are also scattered with wind…”
That’s good.
“Well, in an anonymous forum, one’s physical face is irrelevant ”
I have a general image of what people look like on here, but I’m probably wrong.
” In time, one MAY find kindred spirits / invisible friends / soulmates, but hardly LO without a pair-bond glimmer. Seriously, what do you think?🤔”
Are you asking if it would be hard to glimmer for posters on here without meeting them? I personally couldn’t. I would need to meet people in person. Experience their whole essence. Voice, mannerisms, physicality, etc. But there are people who glimmer for those they meet online.
What is your new “work” situation? Have you changed the job yet?
Not yet.
“You’re making fun of ABBA but you’ll sit through “Wicked”? 🙂”
Marcia
My Ex was in musicals in High School and sort of got me hooked on them over the years. It was common for us to go into Windy City to go see the big ones when they came around. This of course before we had kids and I could blow my wad of cash on her for a night on the town. I miss those days.. 😂
Kristin Chenoweth is a classically trained vocalist and I find that very sexy and attractive in a Woman. (Don’t even get me started on a Woman that can play the piano too. Thats Ultra-next-level-sexy!! 😂)
Her voice inflections on the soundtrack are amazing and she seems like just a fun and very lively and likable person.
“Are you able to watch a show in which you’re not finding someone hot? I can’t imagine being married to you and trying to sit down and watch a movie. 🙂”
When you write like that, you sound just like my Ex. I was that a$$-wipe husband making all sorts of comments about hot Women on I’d see on tv. Which I suppose proves again why I’m divorced, single, lonely and a miserable limerent now.
“Speaking of which … whilst you grease up the TV”
Why you gotta make that sound so pervy? 😂
You think I do things like that? Why that’s,, thats f%@#ing disgusting..
😝🤣
“I’ll watch my “Sex and the City” clips with Mikhail Baryshnikov on my laptop. There are a ton of guys on that show, but when he shows up, the contest is over. Everyone else can just go home. He’s so damn sexy.”
Well I don’t get it thats for sure. My Ex was a huge fan of Richard Gere. Felt that way any time he was in anything. She about went out her mind when he was in “Chicago”. I didn’t get that either and still don’t. However I did feel like he played the role of Billy Flynn well in that movie.
As for Mikhail Baryshnikov, I’ll tell you what I always told her..
I look better.. 😉😆
MJ,
“Kristin Chenoweth is a classically trained vocalist and I find that very sexy and attractive in a Woman. (Don’t even get me started on a Woman that can play the piano too. Thats Ultra-next-level-sexy!! 😂)
Her voice inflections on the soundtrack are amazing and she seems like just a fun and very lively and likable person.”
I don’t doubt her talent but she seems cheer-leaderish to me. Overly chirpy.
“When you write like that, you sound just like my Ex. I was that a$$-wipe husband making all sorts of comments about hot Women on I’d see on tv.”
I had a male roommate when I was in my 20s. So I know. It’s why compliments from your side don’t always land. Tbh. The bar is so low.
“Well I don’t get it thats for sure. ”
It’s not for you to get. You’re not his target audience. 🙂
“My Ex was a huge fan of Richard Gere. ”
Oh, yeah, he’s smoking hot. 🙂
“As for Mikhail Baryshnikov, I’ll tell you what I always told her..
I look better.. 😉😆”
Sure. 🙂 The guy playing Mr. Big is hot, too. And Blair Underwood. I’d say those three of all the guys on that show are hot. And the guy playing Burger. He’s cute. I’d know if I’d say hot.
👒 👠 Marcia,
“I like the description, although it does not sound like me. 🙂”
Then how on earth I had such vivid images and narratives of you? Derived from my mind’s impressions /interpretations based on our chats? Are they scarily inaccurate? Or some Jungian follower would say every dream figure is a manifestation of the dreamer’s Unconscious? So you, Marcia in my dream, is just a part of me? 🙈
I’ve read a little bit about Jungian dream theory that says dream analysis is really, really complex, and an outsider “expert” hears/sees differently from the dreamer — no one can TRULY validate another’s internal world in visceral level. Jung himself guided/advised psychologists to bend over to dreamers’ own interpretations that would benefit the dreamer-patients, and to divert their “detrimental” interpretations. It’s entirely another field of “Mental Art” — not sure if this is an appropriate word.
“Your dad was there? That’s nice to see him again. I have had dreams where my deceased relatives appear.”
The whole dream involves 6 scenes, not tightly occurred next to each other, especially the last one, in which I ran into my parents walking together up the hill (it seemed I was working there?). They were both smiling ☺️ and told me they were having a nice/relaxed time strolling around under bright sunlight when some tourists were hunting chocolates among rocky hills out of our sight. I noticed, there was no wind in the whole valley — a bit dessert like without enough trees, a kind of surreal.
Later I wondered whether it’s a “heaven” scene where all strange animals and few humans peacefully co-existed seemingly, managed by one short Asian looking man, he has a magical calming hand to them. I can’t remember at all what I was chatting with him about, but had an impression I was working with him there. (I vaguely remember that myself curiously stared into the second creature’s eyes, then the crab shaped scorpion walked back). But my concept of a “heaven” is really drawn from Hollywood movies.
“Do you sleep deeply? I have trouble sleeping so I may not get into the deep REM state ?”
I don’t know, but I can’t sleep long (3-6), or my body would slip into depressive mode, very scary. And I function better while taking a nap (with meditation) to be totally refreshed – a biphasic sleeper. But I dream even during 10 minutes nap.
Since young, I was a my own dream teller, perhaps a consequence of cptsd? — had a lot of memorable nightmares; I guess I was a nervous, fearful kid/youth — fearful of Mother’s unpredictable moods, coldness or loss of temper. With her, nothing was ever certain, so I was habitually worried/prepared that things, not logistical stuff, would suddenly change with or without reasons.
I have no troubles to fall in sleep most of the time (99.9%) — almost every time in the subway. I had several sleep tests done in the past for narcolepsy and sleep apnea (due to falling in sleep in driving), I never had narcolepsy and a light apnea only once, which magically disappeared later (supposedly very rare). Machines detected normal REM activities and deep sleep stage, but not excessive.
“I have a general image of what people look like on here, but I’m probably wrong.”
So you have one, too 🫂 — Thank god, I’m NOT alone! How those images formed in your head? How would we ever know if they’re accurate or even close to our naked eyes’ impression? Wouldn’t our impressions based their words and our individualistic interpretation form different images for the same person? Let’s say 💦 🪣 🦎 MJ would look different in your head from mine?
”Are you asking if it would be hard to glimmer for posters on here without meeting them?”
Mental “glimmer” for LO/LE is definitely possible, people have formed friendship /penpals based on their online interactions (for over 40 years based on a BBC recent news!). But is such an internal glimmer same or less compared to Tunnov’s pair-bonding glimmer for a possible LE? Is former stronger or weaker than the latter? I cannot just assume that written words would have more power than physical impressions, right?
“I personally couldn’t. I would need to meet people in person. Experience their whole essence. Voice, mannerisms, physicality, etc. “
I told you what happened to my own chatroom a long time ago… After that I always question my own mind, especially with my mental OCD— was it OCD, an online obsession, or addictive idealization/illusion? I think I was quite naive back then, very immature to detect flattery from genuine compliments… But I did learn that pair-bonding glimmer and mental glimmer might be quite different, at least to me back then.
Now as we all have physically declined, and psychologically matured (this could be discussed in the latest blog), would our mental/spiritual glimmer sync (more) with our pair-bonding glimmer? Charlie Chopin, along with a couple of famous actors, could still fall in love at age of 82, could we women, too? What about that London couple (89, 92) “fell in love” instantly in the subway and got married in 3 months…
“But there are people who glimmer for those they meet online.”
I think that’s mental/spiritual glimmer, which in theory would be much stronger and last longer, but can it assimilate or transcend the physical glimmer — the one is whimsical?
I want to ask you a question from your previous message: do you feel you’re seen or known more ever since you got on LwL five years ago? Did your cptsd get a slightly better? Or did the release of your LEs make you feel less anxious in your reality? Or whatever you felt/got here does not transfer into your reality, thus you still feel “not known and seen” enough?
Obviously, none of us can be your physically close friends, so what are we to you? Some invisible “ghosts” circling around/above your head? You know my answer to my own questions…. My care and focus have always been in our upper end…
My curious mind often got me into troubles, but I can’t help it… It asks questions but rarely change its directions, unless some hardcore evidence indicate a direction is truly wrong… The “worse” is my intuition which just does NOT bend over by the “pure” logical mind… 😀
Why human mind is so complex? Don’t worry, with that lifetime Longing gone, I’m steering my ship steadily, despite vivid wired, wild dreams — they are NOT monsters, but windows to peek/understand one’s SELVES… 😊 After all, no one is perfect, (whatever “perfect” means 🙄)
Last night or this morning, I had a detailed IT coding/deciphering dream (I can apply a “spy” job for the World War III now… 🤭 ), involving several planes transferring as a passenger without knowing any destination… . 🧐
Typo: “despite vivid, weird, wild dreams…”
Marcia,
People dream in REM stage, and in deep sleep, one does not dream. The daily REM + Deep sleeps should be at least 25% of your total sleeping hours — very important for mind’s rest/relaxation. When I occasionally missed REM or Deep sleep, my mood was terrible/horrible. If you have a smart watch, it will tell you exactly percentage for the 4 elements of a night’s sleep: Awake, REM, Light, and Deep sleep minutes.
This data should be interesting to Dr L — When still in LE, my REM + DEEP sleeps ran from 0% to 35%. After LE and that Longing are gone, they two ran from 8%-51% and stayed mostly above 30%. I could NOT believe that they could even run over 50%!! My awake time has been reduced to the way below average every single day. Who says that LE has no/little effect on one’s physiological health?
Last night/this morning, my REM exceeded its average time (30% alone, deep: 13%, average) and I invented and remembered my own IT codes system in my dream, but could not figure out my final destination of several transferred flights with The United Airlines….🤔
My dreams could be converted to detailed, infinitely imaginative and fascinating plays; do we have a masterful screenplay writer here to take the high-end task? — “a writer, a writer, my kingdom for a writer!” 😊
Snow,
“Then how on earth I had such vivid images and narratives of you? ”
You is crazy. 🙂 I’m kidding.
I was thinking more about your description of me … and there is some truth to it. Out in public I can be lively and extrovert … but there’s this other side of me that is a bit anti-social and much more slower-moving. That’s my private side.
“So you, Marcia in my dream, is just a part of me? 🙈”
Yes
“I’ve read a little bit about Jungian dream theory that says dream analysis is really, really complex, and an outsider “expert” hears/sees differently from the dreamer — ”
I think dreams have to mean something. To what extent, I don’t know. And I think sometimes people go overboard with trying to interpret them. You wrote that you had previous dreams about your LO. That makes sense. You were limerent. But now you don’t dream about him. That also makes sense. You’ve come to a sense of closure about him and made peace with the LE.
“But I dream even during 10 minutes nap.”
Do you? You must be a person who dreams a lot.
“I have no troubles to fall in sleep most of the time (99.9%) — almost every time in the subway. ”
You can fall asleep in the subway? Good night! I need pills and a fan going and a dark room. 🙂
“So you have one, too 🫂 — Thank god, I’m NOT alone! How those images formed in your head?”
Yes, but with people I’ve messaged with a lot. Some of my impression of what you look like is probably informed by the female celebrities we’ve discussed. I picture you as slender, dark hair, slightly tomboyish … but is that you or is that Binoche? 🙂
“Let’s say 💦 🪣 🦎 MJ would look different in your head from mine?”
Something tells me we have the same image of him. 🙂
“Mental “glimmer” for LO/LE is definitely possible, people have formed friendship /penpals based on their online interactions (for over 40 years based on a BBC recent news!).”
Yes, very possible. I just don’t think I could become limerent for someone I had never met in person. I need to be in their presence. Although I did as a teenager become limerent with male celebrities. But that was decades ago.
” Charlie Chopin, along with a couple of famous actors, could still fall in love at age of 82, could we women, too?”
He’s a bad example. He’s like Errol Flynn. Had a history of very young wives/girlfriends. Flynn’s were underage.
“What about that London couple (89, 92) “fell in love” instantly in the subway and got married in 3 months…”
I guess it’s possible to fall in love at any age.
“I think that’s mental/spiritual glimmer, which in theory would be much stronger and last longer, but can it assimilate or transcend the physical glimmer — the one is whimsical?”
Idk. I would agree that a mental glimmer lasts longer but the physical glimmer can be a totally separate beast. One doesn’t necessarily imply the other. At least for me. I know you’re different.
“do you feel you’re seen or known more ever since you got on LwL five years ago? Did your cptsd get a slightly better?”
Yes. Better. But it didn’t happen immediately. I started understanding more after … idk … about 2 years on here.
“Or whatever you felt/got here does not transfer into your reality, thus you still feel “not known and seen” enough?”
I still feel that way, yes. But I understand more about limerence and what is causing it, in my case.
“Obviously, none of us can be your physically close friends, so what are we to you? ”
Online friends. I have had one from another site become a real-life friend. We text and occasionally talk on the phone.
“Why human mind is so complex? ”
It is complex, and people are complex.
“Last night or this morning, I had a detailed IT coding/deciphering dream (I can apply a “spy” job for the World War III now… 🤭 ), involving several planes transferring as a passenger without knowing any destination… . 🧐”
You have a vivid dream life. 🙂
“People dream in REM stage, and in deep sleep, one does not dream. The daily REM + Deep sleeps should be at least 25% of your total sleeping hours — very important for mind’s rest/relaxation. When I occasionally missed REM or Deep sleep, my mood was terrible/horrible. If you have a smart watch, it will tell you exactly percentage for the 4 elements of a night’s sleep: Awake, REM, Light, and Deep sleep minutes.”
I don’t know then. I don’t know why I don’t dream but I do have trouble sleeping. Both getting to sleep and staying asleep.
Lady Marcia,
“You are crazy. 🙂 I’m kidding.”
You might think I AM really crazy if you know what’s going on in my waking mind all the time, might fly beyond the Earth or occasionally jumped out of the galaxy 🌌….
“I was thinking more about your description of me … and there is some truth to it. “
I was/am positive there is some truth to it. 😉
“Out in public I can be lively and extrovert …”
I can be extrovert only in my mother tongue. When I chose to, I could “perform” the center of a group with an ease like my Dad. But most of the time, I chose to be quiet listening, and observant — much more fun to watch shows.
I did/do not like flirt or being flirted with… I did not like attention in public, but less shy and more relaxed nowadays to speak in a group — that Longing, followed by self consciousness, is gone. 🙃
“but there’s this other side of me that is a bit anti-social and much more slower-moving. That’s my private side.”
Thus there was a half of our “shared bedroom” was invisible in my dream — your side. 🤔
[“So you, Marcia in my dream, is just a part of me? 🙈”]
“Yes”
So there was a simplistic side of my Unconscious visible through the dorm door ajar, and another unknown side, like a mental Tardis? 😳
“I think dreams have to mean something. To what extent, I don’t know. “
Mark my word, every single dream, tiny or gigantic, all has meanings. They are activities of our Unconscious digesting, balancing new inputs or handling freshly triggered, some past memories, etc.
“And I think sometimes people go overboard with trying to interpret them. “
I don’t think there is standard measurement for “overboard” or just right, who is the authority to say? There are different kinds and levels of stresses involved and dreamer are suffering from them in their individualistic ways. A good therapist would help monitor patients’ own interpretations, checking whether they’re beneficial or detrimental to the clients.
“You wrote that you had previous dreams about your LO. That makes sense. You were limerent. But now you don’t dream about him. That also makes sense. You’ve come to a sense of closure about him and made peace with the LE.”
You’re look at an overall picture here from the content of the dreams, which is important. I also check colors of the dreams that reflect my moods in the dreams, in addition to my emotions in the dream.
“Do you? You must be a person who dreams a lot.”
I’m literally a dreaming dreamer — a consequence of a busy and complex mind.
“You can fall asleep in the subway? Good night! I need pills and a fan going and a dark room. 🙂”
I have the condition called “Motion sickness”, so anything moving would quickly “rock” me to sleep including me on the driver’s seat, except when I actively do walking or biking. Once I almost fell in sleep swimming in the middle of pool and woke up by chocking on water. I fell in sleep in almost every business meeting — all boring. In the past few years, I got better by cutting down Carbo food or on 1.5 or 2 meals a day diet. I don’t want to increase coffee intake.
Your sleeping condition sounds more alarming. To me, it indicates you have some unresolved or unknown underline stresses/anxiety. That must be so exhausting for you most of the time… ☹️
“Yes, but with people I’ve messaged with a lot.”
Of course! Mental images of an invisible 👻 can only come from length, width and depth of dialogues/debates. Chitchats rarely do.
“Some of my impression of what you look like is probably informed by the female celebrities we’ve discussed. I picture you as slender, dark hair, slightly tomboyish … but is that you or is that Binoche? 🙂”
You’re talking about Binoche! I wish I were ever that attractive (never tomboyish but melancholy while young.)… now this 286 yrs old, the great, great grandma of Sir 🦎 look much worse, lucky that here is not a dating site… 😇
“Something tells me we have the same image of him. 🙂”
Most likely… 🤭. But his mental images has changed over time after his tears began to dry and he sometimes humored your ladyship… I enjoyed watching your hilarious tangos and you just put him in his shoes👟 … 😂
“Yes, very possible. “
If mental glimmer is “very possible”, then is this glimmer Eros/pair-bonding related? What love elements in Greek terminology are involved here? Mind/soul-bonding only? Then what about our regular body 🔁 mind inter-relationship? Nothing at all? I am just throwing questions…🧐
“I just don’t think I could become limerent for someone I had never met in person. I need to be in their presence.”
I totally understand. Knowledge and intuition of our five fleshy & complex neural senses could be quite (not necessarily) different from mind/soul knowledge and intuition, brought merely by words and their varied interpretations…. I want BOTH kinds to be integrated.
“Although I did as a teenager become limerent with male celebrities. But that was decades ago.”
I did right after my divorce, and felt so duped by my own shallow or insensible mind and “wishful” ignorance… only after that I learned some differences of two kinds of knowledge and intuitions, and then understood Wittgenstein’s frustrations with limitations of language.
“I guess it’s possible to fall in love at any age.”
Based on Fisher and my own experiences, I know it IS possible to fall in love at any age. You can’t convince me otherwise… my mental state stays between 20s-30s, just like what I dreamed. 💭
“I would agree that a mental glimmer lasts longer but the physical glimmer can be a totally separate beast. One doesn’t necessarily imply the other. “
True that one doesn’t certainly imply the other (some cultural scripts believe it does). There might be differences between two “beasts”, particularly when we were young, our libido sky-rocketing, and our mind was simply idiotic…. However, body and mind are never totally disconnected at any age.
“At least for me. I know you’re different.”
Yes, we’re different based on our chats; I’m mostly heady in the mind (the most creative and sexiest organ), like a bird 🐦🔥 soaring in the sky… But I don’t want to float above clouds most of the time; body and mind should never be separated, because they affect each other every single day.
“Yes. Better. But it didn’t happen immediately. I started understanding more after … idk … about 2 years on here.”
That’s a big gain! I don’t want to brag mine again… annoying others. 😀
“I still feel that way, yes. But I understand more about limerence and what is causing it, in my case.”
I still think that you need urgently to resolve your under radar issues; otherwise, your sleep difficult is the price to pay, which accumulatively will take a toll in your physical health maybe soon.
“Online friends. I have had one from another site become a real-life friend. We text and occasionally talk on the phone.”
A mediocre friendship? What’s the point? Do you get your wished personal care or some inspirations from it?
“It is complex, and people are complex.”
I don’t want complexity in myself, let alone in others. It’s so tiring sometimes to “decode” human psychology, mind, and emotions. However, it’s also curiosity provoking, even exciting when I’m in a more relaxed, inspired mode…
“You have a vivid dream life. 🙂”
One can almost never use the word” boring” to describe my lone wolf’s life, waking or sleeping…. If I want, I can make something out of nothing and laugh my head off over it… 😆 🤭🤣. I will tell you a story a day for 1000001 nights… so you’d never throw me out to a dark street in the Whimsical, Wild West.… 😊
“I don’t know then. I don’t know why I don’t dream but I do have trouble sleeping. Both getting to sleep and staying asleep.”
Don’t dream? Perhaps you don’t believe the Unconscious stuff, which is fine. But a constant deprivation of sleep is the worst chronic health condition; would you please do something about this troubled-sleeping matter? Have you talked about it with your ongoing therapist?
I don’t have enough time to sleep nowadays…. If there were two Marcias here, I’d have to quit my work, full-time chirping here… 🐥
Lady Marcia,
Almost forgot to tell you my synchronicity experience in a supermarket this early evening —
After shouting, “A writer, a writer, my kingdom for a writer” this morning, guess what happened?! A screenplay writer, Hollywood actor dropped right in front of me on the waiting line to cashier!
He was just ahead of me and I didn’t notice this guy at all, while listening to my EarPod and hugging a carbon-box of grocery . It’s less than 8 lbs.
This man saw me first, but I still didn’t notice him. Suddenly he said, “if anytime you want to lay your box down, you can put it on top of my cart.”
I was startled a bit and paused my EarPod. I thanked him and said it’s not that heavy. Only by then, I noticed, he’s an Eastern Indian/American mix, 6’ feet, a bit of bulky, warm, smiling, somewhat good-looking with big, round eyes. He had a little bit accent and looked in his early 40s.
He’s a 💯 straight man for sure. A possible glimmer? #4 at most, and he stroke the first line! He has maybe 1% femininity on his whole bearing. There is no comparison with that womanly-dressed man!
Then, we chatted a bit as the line slowly moving. I complained about the dirty shopping carts and said I often picked up those empty carbon box for my small quantity of stuff. He said something like, “you have what we call Farmer’s Arms”
“I guess I have two strong farmer’s arms.”
Then he asked, “Ready for a holiday?”
“Hmmm… A sort of. It’s not that big for me.”
“It’s not big for me. I’d use this time to write.”
“Are you a writer? What do you write?”
“Yes. A screenplay writer. Also an actor, Hollywood stuff… “(can’t remember exact words)
I almost backed up two steps with my bulging eyes 😳
I just shouted to have a writer, then one appeared a few hours later! Can’t believe my ears.
I almost said that sometimes I write, too; but swallow down my words…
He could be suitable for a date, but I don’t want any casual date, although not from an app. I was quite sure that I would not want to sit down across him for tea/coffee, despite he’s a play writer and an actor.
He’s sensitive enough seeing that I was not interested in further chat… so we parted when going to two cashiers. I didn’t say goodbye afterwards or turned my head to see who finished paying first. I forgot about him as soon as I walked out the supermarket sliding door… until much later.
The life is but a dream….😴
Snow,
“When I chose to, I could “perform” the center of a group with an ease like my Dad. But most of the time, I chose to be quiet listening, and observant — much more fun to watch shows.”
I can do both.
“I did/do not like flirt or being flirted with… I did not like attention in public”
At my age, I will take any and all flirtation. 🙂
“but less shy and more relaxed nowadays to speak in a group — that Longing, followed by self consciousness, is gone. 🙃”
I’m not longing for it but I do miss being noticed.
Aren’t you a teacher? Aren’t you speaking in a group every day?
“Thus there was a half of our “shared bedroom” was invisible in my dream — your side. 🤔”
We may share an apartment but NOT a bedroom. I would hope there’d be stuff going on in my bedroom I wouldn’t want you to witness. 🙂
“So there was a simplistic side of my Unconscious visible through the dorm door ajar, and another unknown side, like a mental Tardis? 😳”
I don’t know what you mean.
“I don’t think there is standard measurement for “overboard” or just right, who is the authority to say? ”
Depends on what the dream is. There are certain universal dreams. A lot of people have them. They go to school and aren’t prepared for a test (even though they haven’t been in school in decades). These dreams are common. Probably a reflection of some kind of anxiety, as you say.
“I’m literally a dreaming dreamer — a consequence of a busy and complex mind.”
I have a lot of day dreams, so to speak. Have a whole inner world going on underneath what people see me do outwardly. But I don’t dream that much at night.
“Once I almost fell in sleep swimming in the middle of pool and woke up by chocking on water.”
That sounds dangerous.
” I fell in sleep in almost every business meeting — all boring.”
I agree. They’re so frigging boring.
“Your sleeping condition sounds more alarming. To me, it indicates you have some unresolved or unknown underline stresses/anxiety. That must be so exhausting for you most of the time… ☹️”
It’s also changing hormones. Do NOT get old. There’s nothing to recommend it. 🙂 I get enough sleep to function. But I would like to work on sleep quality.
“You’re talking about Binoche! I wish I were ever that attractive (never tomboyish but melancholy while young.)… now this 286 yrs old, the great, great grandma of Sir 🦎 look much worse, lucky that here is not a dating site… 😇”
Well, Binoche isn’t young, either, but she’s still attractive. And, IMO, appearance changes over time but charisma/sexiness doesn’t fade.
” But his mental images has changed over time after his tears began to dry ”
I had forgotten about the tears! Why did you bring that up? 🙂
“If mental glimmer is “very possible”, then is this glimmer Eros/pair-bonding related? ”
I think you’ve misunderstood me in the past and think I separate the physical/emotional/mental glimmers. I don’t. If I feel a strong physical glimmer, I also feel an emotional one. (I’m not a man. :)) That being said, I can feel a mental and/or emotional glimmer and not a physical one. Not sure what causes that.
“Yes, we’re different based on our chats; I’m mostly heady in the mind (the most creative and sexiest organ), like a bird 🐦🔥 soaring in the sky… ”
Whereas I operate a lot from my emotions.
“I still think that you need urgently to resolve your under radar issues”
Working on it.
“A mediocre friendship? What’s the point? Do you get your wished personal care or some inspirations from it?”
Friendship to me is … a person you like and enjoy chatting with and feel some sense of simpatico and support.
“I don’t want complexity in myself, let alone in others.”
That’s what people are. They’re complex. Read the posts on this site. If people were easy, this site wouldn’t exist.
“One can almost never use the word” boring” to describe my lone wolf’s life, waking or sleeping”
We differ on this as well. I have plenty going on in my mind. I’d like to have more of it move into my actual life.
“Have you talked about it with your ongoing therapist?”
Not yet, no. We mostly focus on all the limerence crap.
“A screenplay writer, Hollywood actor dropped right in front of me on the waiting line to cashier!”
Oh. How exciting. I know where you live as I looked up your concert when you were writing about it. I bet you run into celebrities all the time. 🙂
“This man saw me first, but I still didn’t notice him. Suddenly he said, “if anytime you want to lay your box down, you can put it on top of my cart.””
And how did you respond? “Is your cart big enough for my box?” Sorry. Couldn’t help myself. 🙂
“Only by then, I noticed, he’s an Eastern Indian/American mix, 6’ feet, a bit of bulky, warm, smiling, somewhat good-looking with big, round eyes. He had a little bit accent and looked in his early 40s.”
I wonder who it was ….
“I was quite sure that I would not want to sit down across him for tea/coffee, despite he’s a play writer and an actor.”
Because he wasn’t your type ?
Miss Marcia,
“At my age, I will take any and all flirtation. 🙂”
Since I was 6 (probably after that trauma with its memory loss), I never liked or hated public attention. Later, it just became a mental habit no matter at what age. I loved my town because no one really pays that much attention to anyone else, no matter if you look like a Hellen of Troy or Casanova of Venice.
Again despite the warning from my LO#4.5 (a psychologist, not mine), I have always cared more about what I like/love first, instead of being liked or not — too passive! I know it sounds very arrogant, but I couldn’t help it since young… I was a secretly willful, single and lonely child — a lone wolf getting too much unwanted attention and got hammered down a lot by the COO system…. 😠
“Aren’t you a teacher? Aren’t you speaking in a group every day?”
I’m not shy in my own classes, but in colleague’s classes or socializing with my peers. I always felt an outsider, regardless my ESL with accent. Most of my close friends were “foreigners”/immigrants, but they all left here.
“We may share an apartment but NOT a bedroom. I would hope there’d be stuff going on in my bedroom I wouldn’t want you to witness. 🙂”
If you always go out dating and coming back between 2-3am, waking me up, I would not want to share an apartment with you, either. 😃
Because in the dream we shared the bedroom, the same job, and the other half room was invisible, after writing you, I figured out that you in the dream was just a part of my selves — I was observing another unknown part of myself manifesting itself through your dream persona, your habit, your public behavior… of course, other bystanders might mean some remote parts of me as well, or my subconscious (hidden deeply) thoughts/emotions about them.
A room in the dream almost always represents one’s mental room/Unconscious space, which could be infinitely big/stretchy like a Tardis. (from Dr. Who)
[So there was a simplistic side of my Unconscious visible through the dorm door ajar, and another unknown side, like a mental Tardis? 😳]
“I don’t know what you mean.”
That means I can could clearly one side of my mind; but the other side is invisible, and I could not tell how big or deep it is. Jung thinks the Unconscious is “infinite” recording all the stuff passed or stored in us since our birth.
“Depends on what the dream is. There are certain universal dreams. A lot of people have them. They go to school and aren’t prepared for a test (even though they haven’t been in school in decades). These dreams are common. Probably a reflection of some kind of anxiety, as you say.”
True. However dream motifs could be similar among some dreamers, but causes of their stresses vary. One could be stressed in the sense of insecurity at work or relationship and then having repeated dreams falling exams (long after one’s school years). I used to have those high anxiety driven exam dreams when I was already giving exams to my students.
“I have a lot of day dreams, so to speak. Have a whole inner world going on underneath what people see me do outwardly. But I don’t dream that much at night.”
Jung would say that those “stresses” are pushed down into your Unconscious since you might be unwilling to face/reflect on them. Then repressed, they could disturb your sleep length or quality.
“That sounds dangerous.”
After that, I changed diet and nowadays, I don’t fall in sleep in all moving vehicles, definitely not when my body is actively moving.
”I agree. They’re so frigging boring.”
Just learned the new word “frigging” here, it’s such a good word that we say a lot in COO! 😆
“Well, Binoche isn’t young, either, but she’s still attractive. And, IMO, appearance changes over time but charisma/sexiness doesn’t fade.”
Gosh, Binoche is still so dashingly attractive! She would be always my top idol! To keep feminine charisma/sexiness takes some disciplinary work — good sleep, no junkie/heavy food, no/little alcohol/juice drinking, exercises, maintain optimistic attitude/gratitude towards life, desiring/wanting less.
”I had forgotten about the tears! Why did you bring that up? 🙂”
To show that one’s mental images of others could change/evolve as contents and moods of their talks change. Without a realistic picture, mental images are elastic painted by mere words.
“I think you’ve misunderstood me in the past and think I separate the physical/emotional/mental glimmers. I don’t. If I feel a strong physical glimmer, I also feel an emotional one. “
I’m the same way here, as well as all limerents here. I never had any pure physical/sexual attraction by anyone no matter how athletically beautiful s/he is.
“That being said, I can feel a mental and/or emotional glimmer and not a physical one. Not sure what causes that.”
This is what I was asking you — without physical glimmer, where was your mental/emotional glimmer from⁉️ Ming/soul❓ What made Andrea Bocellie glimmer at his first and second wife? How did they “appear” in his mind? (His sons are quite handsome)
“Whereas I operate a lot from my emotions.”
Emotions are stored in mind as well as in body. Due to my COO training, I habitually hide my emotions behind shyness. You wanted to jump off cliff with your LO, I wanted to soar up with LO — Life is the soaring of bird❗️
“Friendship to me is … a person you like and enjoy chatting with and feel some sense of simpatico and support.”
Yes, definitely! I felt this way when I needed an ear, simpatico and support (I occasionally talk with my ex-in-law and his current wife in LA, together or separately). But when there is little stress going on in my life, I’m quite content and joyful just by myself. I’m my own steady ear, simpatico and support and can share them with another chosen one. When I feel strong, I could be a Joan of Arc.
“That’s what people are. They’re complex. Read the posts on this site. If people were easy, this site wouldn’t exist.”
Gosh, us limerents are so whinny, “sticky/slimy”, indecisive… I feel so embarrassed/mortified even just to think about that I was possibly appearing all these in my last LE.
“We differ on this as well. I have plenty going on in my mind. I’d like to have more of it move into my actual life.”
I’ve been dreaming my whole life to actualize my dreams in reality… but when they are in realistic shortage, then imagining/envisioning them day and night would do, it’s a mood regulation. I don’t mean only romance stuff, but all aspects of life. Remember, my enneagram is insatiable curiosity about life — it IS an adventure, considering how short it is.
“Not yet, no. We mostly focus on all the limerence crap.”
That’s good, since you haven’t totally come out of it yet.
“Oh. How exciting. I know where you live as I looked up your concert when you were writing about it. I bet you run into celebrities all the time. 🙂”
Yes, in my town you can possibly pump into any celebrity in any field you could think of. 90% of service people in restaurants are B or C level actors /actresses /writers /painters /musicians…. Once a long time ago, I was standing next to Keenu Reeves while waiting for the traffic light. He was alone and looked very ordinary, I did not feel excited since I was never a celebrity chaser. I liked his movie very much.
“And how did you respond? “Is your cart big enough for my box?” Sorry. Couldn’t help myself. 🙂”
🤭 only my INFP Sis could think of such a response in a blink of eyes! 🫂. I was surprised that someone made an “offer” for my grocery box… 😆. I did feel a bit flattered, since I looked tired with puffy eyes. But I was in a genuinely good mood.
“I wonder who it was ….”
I surely would not know. He looked very friendly, and not macho, nor feminine.
“Because he wasn’t your type ?”
He’s not my type, but soft and gentle enough. But like a man, my subconscious 👁️ instantly scanned his face (did/do not know what pants or shoes he was wearing and forgot to check his finger for ring) and tried to envision whether I could get physically intimate with him — Nope! The answer was definitely NO, by my rarely wrong initiation‼️
Then, I lost interests to chat up; I had my questions in my head already but held them back. He caught my interest dropping; he’s a keen observer as a writer….
I have marvelous writers in my own life, who cares who he is! 😊
Snow,
“If you always go out dating and coming back between 2-3am, waking me up, I would not want to share an apartment with you, either. 😃”
We can share an apartment but not a bedroom.
I’m stealth-like and quiet. You won’t hear me come in. 🙂
“A room in the dream almost always represents one’s mental room/Unconscious space, which could be infinitely big/stretchy like a Tardis. (from Dr. Who)”
I’m not nerdy enough to watch Dr. Who. 🙂
“Jung would say that those “stresses” are pushed down into your Unconscious since you might be unwilling to face/reflect on them. Then repressed, they could disturb your sleep length or quality.”
My day dreams aren’t stressors. They’re just tapping into deeper parts of my personality I can’t necessarily access every day.
“After that, I changed diet and nowadays, I don’t fall in sleep in all moving vehicles, definitely not when my body is actively moving.”
Less carbs?
“Just learned the new word “frigging” here, it’s such a good word that we say a lot in COO! 😆”
It’s a great word. 🙂
“To keep feminine charisma/sexiness takes some disciplinary work — good sleep, no junkie/heavy food, no/little alcohol/juice drinking, exercises, maintain optimistic attitude/gratitude towards life, desiring/wanting less.”
Well, IMO, one’s physical appearance is one thing. That will age. No matter what you do. Charisma/sexiness is a quality. Someone who has it has it forever.
“To show that one’s mental images of others could change/evolve as contents and moods of their talks change.”
I’ve evolved my image of him to not include the crying. 🙂
“This is what I was asking you — without physical glimmer, where was your mental/emotional glimmer from⁉️ ”
I meant an emotional feeling of closeness or of being heard. A mental connection like a a great conversation. I could feel that as a start to a friendship. Could have nothing to do with a romantic glimmer. Maybe “glimmer” isn’t the right word.
“But when there is little stress going on in my life, I’m quite content and joyful just by myself. ”
I like having people in my life. I don’t need to be with people every minute of the day, but I do like to be social and go out. Or maintain communication with friends.
“I feel so embarrassed/mortified even just to think about that I was possibly appearing all these in my last LE.”
Most definitely. I cringe at the stuff I’ve done. I think the last one is the only one I maintained a shred of self-respect in not doing too much to chase him.
“I don’t mean only romance stuff, but all aspects of life. ”
I didn’t mean just romance, either.
“Remember, my enneagram is insatiable curiosity about life — it IS an adventure, considering how short it is.”
Yes, you’re an Investigator. 🙂
“Once a long time ago, I was standing next to Keenu Reeves while waiting for the traffic light. He was alone and looked very ordinary, I did not feel excited since I was never a celebrity chaser. I liked his movie very much.”
Did he look good in person? I ask because I have a friend who loves him. I find him a bit bland but in interviews he seems like a good guy.
“I did feel a bit flattered, since I looked tired with puffy eyes. But I was in a genuinely good mood.”
Oh, yes, most definitely sounds flattering.
“He’s not my type, but soft and gentle enough. But like a man, my subconscious 👁️ instantly scanned his face (did/do not know what pants or shoes he was wearing and forgot to check his finger for ring) and tried to envision whether I could get physically intimate with him — Nope! The answer was definitely NO, by my rarely wrong initiation‼️”
I’m the same way. I can tell right away if it’s a yes or no.
“He caught my interest dropping; he’s a keen observer as a writer….”
That’s interesting. Often times the other side is … er … unable to pick up on shifts in interest.
I’m enough of a nerd to watch Dr Who. I’ve seen ALL the episodes. (Well, not the latest season. Since they put it on Disney it no longer shows up in my DVR, making it easy to forget about.) 🙂
I’m also enough of a nerd to have gone to one of the conventions and found myself standing next to a star in the food court. Funny thing—He looked totally normal! Human! (And he did NOT play a human on TV, lol.) I figured he just wanted to get his food and have lunch, so I didn’t bother him. 🙂
Marcia,
You and the European clan chatted the storm, I didn’t even see your reply until now (after a much needed nap)… just wanted to add a side point — after my LE and Longing, I’m so with your points/stand… couldn’t see their muddy situations clearly before, although my intuition was never wrong even back then.… LE (w/ SO) emotions could be so sticky…🤨
“We can share an apartment but not a bedroom.
I’m stealth-like and quiet. You won’t hear me come in. 🙂”
That’s sounds better. And please don’t bring your “professionals” there 😉!
“I’m not nerdy enough to watch Dr. Who. 🙂”
The nerd LO#5 has the whole collection, and I watched the most but could not remember most of the stories, except a few scenes and a couple of Dr. Who’s face. At the time, their imaginations helped open my mind — there was no limits for what Tardis and characters could do in the entire galaxy… I remembered one line, “would you change a piece of history if you can go back….”, and the advice was NOT, because all other consequential events would have to be rearranged thus disturb the universe — its energy fields.
“My day dreams aren’t stressors. They’re just tapping into deeper parts of my personality I can’t necessarily access every day.”
Ah? What do you mean you “can’t access”? Usually, one can access to one’s deep “unknowns”/ “unreachable” parts — shadows, only through dreams. Logical mind mostly gets in the way of “tapping”. Do your daydreams make you feel better?
I don’t daydream that much while out of LE, but become more observant of my environment and imagine/envision a lot, wif A or wif B… about the future; since young, I rarely dwell(ed) on or looked back the past and could forgive and become indifferent to (even forget) anything or anyone. My Granny and Dad are like this.
“Less carbs?”
Yes. But I’m unable to cut them completely, so indulge some before the noon. My sleepiness is much, much better for the past few years… I also had sleepless nights when feeling uncontrollable fear … even out of misunderstandings or misinterpretations… 🙄
“It’s a great word. 🙂”
Frigging sounds so much better than that f* word, which bothers my ear a great deal… 😠
“Well, IMO, one’s physical appearance is one thing. That will age. No matter what you do. Charisma/sexiness is a quality. Someone who has it has it forever.”
Well, if one drinks a lot (a little bit social drinking is fine), loaded with junkie food (affect intestines thus skin), unaware insecurity, or turbulent personality, like Elizabeth Taylor (aged horribly!), they’d lose that Charisma/sexiness… French and British actresses are doing better in general than American ones.
“I’ve evolved my image of him to not include the crying. 🙂”
The same here; I don’t have crying “feature of him” anymore… You did a great job! 👏
“I meant an emotional feeling of closeness or of being heard. A mental connection like a a great conversation. I could feel that as a start to a friendship.”
So this guy can’t ever move from your “friendship” to your “LO” file? A great mental connection and emotional closeness could not help develop your romantic feelings?
“Could have nothing to do with a romantic glimmer. Maybe “glimmer” isn’t the right word.”
That bewitching and damned Glimmer! 🙄 So you’re essentially saying that mental/emotional closeness and connection can never lead to romantic feelings; am I getting you correct? and when you get a LO, you don’t want him to be in the “friendship” file? I wonder 🤔 if you’d ever get a BP — Beloved Pirate 🏴☠️, and just sail to the end of Galaxy 🌌 without worrying about a damn thing in reality…
“I like having people in my life. I don’t need to be with people every minute of the day, but I do like to be social and go out. Or maintain communication with friends.”
I’ll find a bigger apartment for sharing with you! It’s not that I don’t like having people in my life — I was such a lonely, desperate child for siblings! But I found it got dull after a couple encounters, if people share so little with my mentality or sentimentality; If imagination, wisdom and humor were not/less involved, I got bored very fast. Then, exploring the world/life on my own could be more fun! I never liked chitchats, except with xLO…
“Most definitely. I cringe at the stuff I’ve done. I think the last one is the only one I maintained a shred of self-respect in not doing too much to chase him.”
Understand! I’m gratified and proud that I didn’t lose much self-respect due to any inappropriate actions… Mostly I felt embarrassed about some knee-weakening thoughts and sticky LE emotions inside myself.
“Yes, you’re an Investigator. 🙂”
Most of the time a compassionate one; used to be in line with Dostoyevsky (sad) and then with Proust — brilliant, insightful, tasteful humor/sarcasm, and gaily verbose). I can’t help wonder what makes one tick this way or that way, I guess I never grew out of a kid’s millions whys…
“Did he look good in person? I ask because I have a friend who loves him. I find him a bit bland but in interviews he seems like a good guy.”
He looked nice and humble, not showy at all — you won’t believe how many good looking, showy people in the street of my town, and those waiters and waitresses — Zeus’ cupbearers! Reeves had a very tough/sad life story with very respectable personality — having his own principles and firm footing in dealing with Hollywood.
“Oh, yes, most definitely sounds flattering.”
Now, think back, he’s quite warm without any wolfy looks. His face is somewhat roundish (like Colin Firth), which is unsexy to me. Jeremy Irons, Day-Lewis, Huge Grant all have longish face and sharp chins.
“I’m the same way. I can tell right away if it’s a yes or no.”
We’re an INFP! 🤗 That elastic, dazzling P could pick up zillions of things that marvel/mess others’ mind … 😆 If having a Tardis, I could spring/jump to another part of galaxy in a blink eyes; I don’t need much planning for doing anything “adventurous” (has to be physically safe). I find too much planning kills spontaneity fun. 💃
“That’s interesting. Often times the other side is … er … unable to pick up on shifts in interest.”
After seeing it, I believed his words that he’s a writer, who is supposed to keenly observe and sense others well…. ET was very good in this.
I agree with you that most of time, typical heterosexual men are focused, Subconsciously, on their “hunting/saving female targets”, unable to sense the latter’s emotions… a lot of them insensibly believe they would be a winner if they just try harder… 😏
My sweet gay student’s dog (a small bull-mixture), PJ—peanut butter & jelly, has “fallen in love” with me… Whenever I went there to tutor, he became highly excited but still obeyed his master. Last evening (now 4:30am), he went nuts demanding me to pat and hold him, tried to lick me, and then embarrassingly “performed his high” on the floor “singing”, with this four paws up spinning and kicking in the air… 🙈 PJ falls in limerence with a human! 🤨
I had to tell my student that in my last life I was definitely a dog priestess. 🌬️ 🤭
Snow,
“couldn’t see their muddy situations clearly before, although my intuition was never wrong even back then.… LE (w/ SO) emotions could be so sticky…🤨”
Not sure exactly what you mean but even way back at the start of my last big LE … I knew something was off. Even before I confirmed he was married. I ignored that feeling — you call it intuition — because I wanted what I wanted. Or wanted to believe what I wanted to believe.
“That’s sounds better. And please don’t bring your “professionals” there 😉!”
If I’m paying half the rent, I’m bringing over whomever I want. Don’t worry. I’m not a “look at me, look what I’m doing” show off. You won’t be subjected to what’s going on in my room. I’m quiet and discreet. 🙂
“The nerd LO#5”
Major points against him. 🙂
“I remembered one line, “would you change a piece of history if you can go back….”, and the advice was NOT, because all other consequential events would have to be rearranged thus disturb the universe — its energy fields.”
I think that’s a Star Trek episode! Starring a young Joan Collins! The original series. “But, Marcia,” you ask, “doesn’t that make you a nerd if you know that?” NO! It’s a young William Shatner in short, tight pants. 🙂
“Ah? What do you mean you “can’t access”?”
I can’t write about it on here. Dr. L will get mad. 🙂 Whatever part LO-lite accessed. Re-introduced me to a person I hadn’t seen in a long time.
“Do your daydreams make you feel better?”
I wasn’t clear. Some of this “inner life” is stuff that already happened. Experiences with people that feel more impactful than whatever I’m doing in every day life. Some of it, you’re right, is worries or concerns. The usual existential thoughts … where is my life going, etc.?
“I rarely dwell(ed) on or looked back the past and could forgive and become indifferent to (even forget) anything or anyone. My Granny and Dad are like this.”
Mine is the recent past. I’m not dwelling on things years ago.
“I also had sleepless nights when feeling uncontrollable fear … even out of misunderstandings or misinterpretations… ”
About what?
“Frigging sounds so much better than that f* word, which bothers my ear a great deal… 😠”
I like the “f” word. But I will follow the rules of the blog and avoid profanity … as it’s not my blog.
“like Elizabeth Taylor (aged horribly!)”
No, she didn’t. It depends on what phase of her life you’re talking about. I saw a clip of her on YouTube when she appeared on The Tonight Show. Johnny Carson was about to retire. She was about to turn 60. She looked great.
“they’d lose that Charisma/sexiness… French and British actresses are doing better in general than American ones.”
French women are allowed to age. They can look sophisticated and NORMAL as they age and still be considered attractive. In America … we’re fixated on youth and a certain period of time being the peak of attractiveness.
But I’d argue that charisma is forever. You can pull up a clip of Jack Nicholson on YouTube. It might be 10 years old. He interrupts an interview between Jennifer Lawrence and George Stephanopoulos after she wins the Oscar. He is flirting with her, and he is smooth.(But not young and not thin.)
“So this guy can’t ever move from your “friendship” to your “LO” file? A great mental connection and emotional closeness could not help develop your romantic feelings?”
I think we’ve talked about this before ? No, he can’t.
“That bewitching and damned Glimmer! 🙄 So you’re essentially saying that mental/emotional closeness and connection can never lead to romantic feelings; am I getting you correct?”
Not without the physical glimmer.
” and when you get a LO, you don’t want him to be in the “friendship” file? ”
Nope. Just want him in my room. 🙂
“But I found it got dull after a couple encounters, if people share so little with my mentality or sentimentality; If imagination, wisdom and humor were not/less involved”
It depends on the friend. Some people are fun to be around. High energy. Great humor. Willing to go out and do things. But, yes, if you can’t share who you really are with each other … you can only get so close to them.
“I’m gratified and proud that I didn’t lose much self-respect due to any inappropriate actions… ”
Oh, I lost myself to inappropriate actions. I meant I didn’t drive things. Didn’t do all/most the texting or keep showing up to remind the person I was alive. I didn’t nudge things along. I didn’t do that with LO-lite. I will not do that. I’ll do my part, but that’s it. It’s not just limerence. I feel this about people in general. At any time, if I feel like I’m “chasing the relationship” … could be any kind of relationship (friendship, romance, family) … I pull back. I’m not doing that anymore. It’s got to be reciprocal.
“Most of the time a compassionate one”
I don’t know, my dear. Tbh, you were a little rough recently with some of the posters on here.
“He looked nice and humble, not showy at all”
That’s how I pictured him. He seems like a good guy. From the interviews I’ve seen. Not arrogant. Considerate of other people.
“I agree with you that most of time, typical heterosexual men are focused, Subconsciously, on their “hunting/saving female targets”, unable to sense the latter’s emotions… a lot of them insensibly believe they would be a winner if they just try harder… 😏”
Part of that is societal. The message is … if he just keeps trying/asking, she’ll change her mind. Or if he hangs around long enough as a friend, she’ll finally see his value as a boyfriend. Isn’t that the plot of so many movies? But it’s the wrong message to send.
“I had to tell my student that in my last life I was definitely a dog priestess. 🌬️ 🤭”
Or a dog. 🙂 Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.
I actually like animals.
Miss Marcia,
“Not sure exactly what you mean but even way back at the start of my last big LE … “
I was referring to cases of the European Clan, not my own or yours…. I’ll keep my mouth shot 🤐 No one has assigned me ungrateful tasks here, and almost no one wish to take “bitter herbs” of truth to face and treat their stubborn “mental tumor” — LE.
“I knew something was off. Even before I confirmed he was married. I ignored that feeling — you call it intuition — because I wanted what I wanted. Or wanted to believe what I wanted to believe.”
The knowledgeable pursuit of unhealthy desires or whimsical wishes that actually bring oneself mental or physical pains or even “downfall” is human follies or foolishness.
“If I’m paying half the rent, I’m bringing over whomever I want. Don’t worry. I’m not a “look at me, look what I’m doing” show off. You won’t be subjected to what’s going on in my room. I’m quiet and discreet. 🙂”
I don’t need someone to share my rent, but a kindred mentality, sentimentality and soul to share at least half of my values and lifestyles… I won’t want a roommate before my AND her/his dating time is.
[The nerd LO#5]
“Major points against him. 🙂”
Don’t you think I’m a kind of nerd, too? A nerd usually doesn’t get along well with the rest of societal herds.
“I think that’s a Star Trek episode! Starring a young Joan Collins! The original series. “But, Marcia,” you ask, “doesn’t that make you a nerd if you know that?” NO! It’s a young William Shatner in short, tight pants. 🙂”
I probably only watched one or two episode of “Star Trek”, it’s so slow. Is your LwL name from the character there?
“I can’t write about it on here. Dr. L will get mad. 🙂 Whatever part LO-lite accessed. Re-introduced me to a person I hadn’t seen in a long time.”
That sound a more intriguing LO to hear about than those intolerable Narc LO, about whom some lmerents just couldn’t help nonstop talk…
“I wasn’t clear. Some of this “inner life” is stuff that already happened. Experiences with people that feel more impactful than whatever I’m doing in every day life.”
Then, it’s beneficial reflection; could you reap the fruits and move further with the gained insights?
“Some of it, you’re right, is worries or concerns. The usual existential thoughts … where is my life going, etc.?”D
Middle-aged people seldom could get away from existential thoughts…. There should be less worries if one focuses on “here and now” spiritually, while preparing for expected or/and unexpected logistically/financially.
“Mine is the recent past. I’m not dwelling on things years ago.”
I was talking about the fresh history; my last LE only ended on April 2 of this year… I don’t truly understand why I can become indifferent so fast this time, due to the exit of the longing?
“About what?”
The sudden sense of the perceived abandonment, originated from childhood, could still suddenly trigger me despite my Stoicism practice, which would take from 1 day to 1 week, to damper the fear. Still, I’d lose sleep with a bit of chill or/and tremor for the night…
“No, she didn’t. It depends on what phase of her life you’re talking about. I saw a clip of her on YouTube when she appeared on The Tonight Show. Johnny Carson was about to retire. She was about to turn 60. She looked great.”
To me, she never looked graceful at any age, although aesthetically beautiful…. For the old Hollywood, I like Greta Garbo, Ingrid Bergman, Audrey Hepburn, and Grace Kelly.
“French women are allowed to age. They can look sophisticated and NORMAL as they age and still be considered attractive.”
Aged or not, they do look more sophisticated, chic and cultural in general than American women. Have you seen the healthy lifestyle of regular French women, and how they train and educate their children from young age? My French gf has three boys, Godmother 3 girls…
“In America … we’re fixated on youth and a certain period of time being the peak of attractiveness.”
Psychologically unhealthy. Stressing on “attractiveness” itself is vain and shallow, breeding insecurity from a very early age.
“But I’d argue that charisma is forever. You can pull up a clip of Jack Nicholson on YouTube.”
Jack Nicholson is a great actor, but he is aesthetically ugly. His flirt won’t work for me even at his younger age, sorry to say so about your idol.
“I think we’ve talked about this before ? No, he can’t.”
That’s too bad for you, or anyone else. But I don’t think all other people function this way like you do.
“Not without the physical glimmer.”
But as you self-revealed, your physical glimmer seemed to have always picked up “wrong” men, why was that? Would you say that your body is somehow “separated/detached” from your mind/spirit?
[ and when you get a LO, you don’t want him to be in the “friendship” file? ”]
“Nope. Just want him in my room. 🙂 “
That would make it just impossible to get yourself a BP, no? Do you think this is influenced/imprinted by your individuality /the personal history or the American culture as a whole?
“It depends on the friend. Some people are fun to be around. High energy. Great humor. Willing to go out and do things.”
I think I talked about this before, extrovert, highly energetic, jolly kind of people keep me in distance. They’re fun and indispensable for parties, like my Ex’s passed godfather; but most parties are superficial although could be jolly. Superficiality in any field turns me off, so Unromantic!
“ I meant I didn’t drive things. Didn’t do all/most the texting or keep showing up to remind the person I was alive. I didn’t nudge things along. I didn’t do that with LO-lite. I will not do that. I’ll do my part, but that’s it. It’s not just limerence. I feel this about people in general. At any time, if I feel like I’m “chasing the relationship” … could be any kind of relationship (friendship, romance, family) … I pull back. I’m not doing that anymore. It’s got to be reciprocal.”
I posted a short video not long ago, “The Only Relationship Rule that matters — reciprocity.
https://youtu.be/JViyD5dKM8k?si=cn89fZBgZtGR3tyg”.
There is another one — the Only Way to Date Successfully:
https://youtu.be/IKO9ADslRs4?si=qiYk2Sx61nfxyjha
“I don’t know, my dear. Tbh, you were a little rough recently with some of the posters on here.”
Was I rough, or just they could not take “tough love”? If I got impatient or lost my composure, was I allowed to be triggered, as an inescapable LO annoyed by “slimy/sticky” limerent (at my work)? Was I allowed to make direct, honest complaint/disagreement? Did my “roughness” stay long?
“Part of that is societal. The message is … if he just keeps trying/asking, she’ll change her mind. Or if he hangs around long enough as a friend, she’ll finally see his value as a boyfriend. Isn’t that the plot of so many movies? But it’s the wrong message to send.”
Exactly! It shows that those movies do not understand human psychology well. The worse, such an enduring pursuit is derived from game playing mentality, chasing for the sake of winning chase. Once the pray or trophy is won, they get bored with it soon.
There was a true story in the turning of the 20 century in COO. This young poet celebrity pursued a young lady with his “immortal”, beautiful love poems. After five years of the great creative work, married him. In one year, he began to have affairs and abandoned her later for another pretty girl.
“Or a dog. 🙂 Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.
I actually like animals.”
Besides my BP, I would always take a dog as companion ahead of any other human beings. 😀
Typo: “I won’t want a roommate before my AND her/his dating time is over.”
🦆 What is limerence? (Explained by ducks 🦆 )
😂
https://youtube.com/shorts/MhORH0wriFI?si=V9oiM1ICFp4tDP8Z 😂
😱 What a grammatical and illogical mistake —
“If I, an inescapable LO, got deeply annoyed by a “slimy/sticky” limerent at work and then triggered by some Narc-LO obsessed posts here, was I allowed to be impatient or lose my composure?”
Forgive my half awake brain at the end of a long day without any nap… 😟
Now in the grayish sky, the internal Sun is shining again — Today is another day! 😀
Snow,
“The knowledgeable pursuit of unhealthy desires or whimsical wishes that actually bring oneself mental or physical pains or even “downfall” is human follies or foolishness.”
Welcome to the human condition.
“I don’t need someone to share my rent, but a kindred mentality, sentimentality and soul to share at least half of my values and lifestyles…”
That’s what a roommate does. Shares the expenses.
“I won’t want a roommate before my AND her/his dating time is.”
I don’t know what you mean.
“Don’t you think I’m a kind of nerd, too? A nerd usually doesn’t get along well with the rest of societal herds.”
I don’t mind a little nerd. I’m have a little nerd in me. But I admire someone who is good socially. I can be social but I’m not adept at it and I would look for that in a man as it’s a quality I don’t have.
“Is your LwL name from the character there?”
No. I just pulled the name out of the air.
“Then, it’s beneficial reflection; could you reap the fruits and move further with the gained insights?”
Possibly. A lot of what life is is accepting things you cannot change or situations/people you cannot change. I’m speaking in general, not just of LOs.
“I was talking about the fresh history; my last LE only ended on April 2 of this year… I don’t truly understand why I can become indifferent so fast this time, due to the exit of the longing?”
I’ve mentioned this before. I’m not interested in talking about longing.
“The sudden sense of the perceived abandonment, originated from childhood”
What would trigger it?
“To me, she never looked graceful at any age, although aesthetically beautiful….”
Honey, do you have eyes? 🙂 She played Helen of Troy in the “Doctor Faustus” movie. The only woman, IMO, who could ever pull that off. And underneath all the beauty, she was earthy and bawdy. It was an interesting contrast.
“For the old Hollywood, I like Greta Garbo”
I find her interesting. Both her on-screen persona and how she lived her life once she left Hollywood. She was her own person.
“Ingrid Bergman, Audrey Hepburn, and Grace Kelly”
These are not my favorites. Although I liked Bergman when she played Hedda Gabler. It’s a great part.
“Aged or not, they do look more sophisticated, chic and cultural in general than American women. ”
I agree. I think it’s the way they style themselves. They look elegant and sexy. There’s a way to still look sexy as you age and a way that screams … I’m not sure how to put it … the woman is still trying to look 25. Or style herself as did at 25. French women don’t to that.
[“In America … we’re fixated on youth and a certain period of time being the peak of attractiveness.”]
“Psychologically unhealthy. Stressing on “attractiveness” itself is vain and shallow, breeding insecurity from a very early age.”
As a young woman, you get a lot of attention. As has been documented on here. It’s the way it is in Western society.
“Jack Nicholson is a great actor, but he is aesthetically ugly. ”
That’s really harsh.
“His flirt won’t work for me even at his younger age, sorry to say so about your idol.”
He’s not my idol. Nor is he really my type. But I think he has a lot of charisma. My point was … when you have it, you just have it. Age doesn’t diminish it.
“But I don’t think all other people function this way like you do.”
I never said they did.
“But as you self-revealed, your physical glimmer seemed to have always picked up “wrong” men, why was that? Would you say that your body is somehow “separated/detached” from your mind/spirit?”
I don’t know how to answer that. I’d say separate friendship from romance. WHICH I KNOW YOU DON’T. 🙂 They feel like two separate feelings.
“Superficiality in any field turns me off, so Unromantic!”
I’m not big on it either but I’m fairly introverted myself. I wouldn’t want to date another introvert.
“Was I rough, or just they could not take “tough love”? If I got impatient or lost my composure, was I allowed to be triggered, as an inescapable LO annoyed by “slimy/sticky” limerent (at my work)? Was I allowed to make direct, honest complaint/disagreement? Did my “roughness” stay long?”
Do you not see what you’re doing? Not accepting any responsibility and throwing it back on them? You got enough feedback to know how your words were taken.
I don’t think “tough love” works on most people. It makes them defensive and shut down and everything you say, even if true, bounces off them. I think you can make some points and ask some questions to get them thinking, but I don’t think tough love affects how/when/if people grow. I was going through a breakup years ago and one day my friend said, “I can’t talk about this anymore.” And I didn’t even realize how much I was talking about it. I’m sure I was going over and over the same thing. I’m sure she wanted to pull her hair out. And I think you can do that. Put up a boundary. Or you can remove yourself from the conversation.
“Exactly! It shows that those movies do not understand human psychology well. ”
It rarely works. Needling someone or waiting around forever … it’s a bad strategy.
I see Elizabeth Taylor as perfect beauty…or as close to it as anyone can get. Of course, it’s in the eye of the beholder. 🙂 I don’t know what she was like personally, but I admire how she looks in movies. For example, Cleopatra; I watched it once and found it waaaaay too long (a common complaint), but her curves looked good in that Egyptian dress!
Just the other day, I watched a Youtube video by a Frenchwoman with advice for how a woman should dress as she ages. I soon figured out I wasn’t quite as old as she meant, but it still had good tips.
I think most of my LE’s didn’t develop until after I knew the guy for a while. Some I dated right away, some I never dated, but most of the time I think I have to know the guy and have some familiarity with him before anything can truly develop.
Serial,
” For example, Cleopatra; I watched it once and found it waaaaay too long (a common complaint), but her curves looked good in that Egyptian dress!”
The movie is long and slow and cheesy and overdone, but she looks gorgeous.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/x5MX6l0ps80
She’s right. Forty is a good age for a man. 🙂
“I think most of my LE’s didn’t develop until after I knew the guy for a while. Some I dated right away, some I never dated, but most of the time I think I have to know the guy and have some familiarity with him before anything can truly develop.”
I’m the opposite. The more I get to know them, the LE starts to crumble.
Forty: When they’re technically middle-aged but still young and hot. 🙂
Marcia,
“Welcome to the human condition.”
Is it an excuse to bend over to perpetual imperfect human conditions as our defaults? E.g. use the excuse of having “addiction” to NOT to discipline one’s behaviors such as excessive-drinking or obsessing LO? Can one try to grow like a lotus 🪷 out of a muddy pond?
“That’s what a roommate does. Shares the expenses.:
I know roommates share expenses, and I said it would be my last reason to want a roommate. Personality even as a company matters a huge deal.
“I don’t know what you mean.”
I meant that I would not want a roommate if she/he and I are still eligible to date, passively or actively. I want my privacy in romance and don’t want to witness others’ romantic life under my nose in my apartment.
“I don’t mind a little nerd. I’m have a little nerd in me. But I admire someone who is good socially.”
I do not admire people who are vey social, especially those social-butterfly, people pleasers, chitchatters and peacemakers in my personal life (job requirement is excluded).
“I can be social but I’m not adept at it and I would look for that in a man as it’s a quality I don’t have.”
If I really want something (personality traits) from someone else, I’ll cultivate it first in myself. I’m already a complete incomplete-self, and another could only help me to complete my own incompleteness, but s/he cannot replace or fill that incompleteness of mine, vice vista. I hope I could be such an assistant to a future BP.
“Possibly. A lot of what life is is accepting things you cannot change or situations/people you cannot change. I’m speaking in general, not just of LOs.”
Very true, you’re so Stoic here! By hanging in this place, while I no longer need to, is to further train my mind for such a Stoic principle. Trust me, it was never a piece of cake… It took/takes one’s guts!
“I’ve mentioned this before. I’m not interested in talking about longing.”
I was not thinking about your longing stuff at all, but wondered whether I was too “heartless” to become indifferent to XLO/XLE so fast, as if totally erased a long “dream” of 8 years in one go — less than 2 hours! While last year I was still chatting with you about possibly building a post-LE friendship with ET…
Now I know for sure that thought alone proved that I was not totally out of LE ember. With current zero wish to have such a “friendship” with XLO, I have neither warm, nor cold, sad, resentful, regrettable feelings…. It IS in the past just like a dream!
“What would trigger it?”
My negative imaginations/perceptions out of miscommunication or misunderstanding. Envision/imagination is always a double-bladed sword; and both sides work equally powerful. It’s almost impossible to stop triggering and its neural effects, although your logical mind may know what is happening and exact whys….
“Honey, do you have eyes? 🙂
I have a pair of big, talking, and intuitive eyes… and trust them very much!
“She played Helen of Troy in the “Doctor Faustus” movie. The only woman, IMO, who could ever pull that off. And underneath all the beauty, she was earthy and bawdy. It was an interesting contrast.”
I didn’t see the above movie, but some other ones. Bawdiness in women and men turn me off, no matter what atheistical beauty they have. I don’t see much earthiness in Taylor but loads of insecurity in her characters.
“For the old Hollywood, I like Greta Garbo”
I find her interesting. Both her on-screen persona and how she lived her life once she left Hollywood. She was her own person.”
Precisely! We share same views on Greta Garbo. She’s mysterious, fiercely independent, and strong with emotional vulnerabilities, like in the character, Queen Christina.
“Ingrid Bergman, Audrey Hepburn, and Grace Kelly”
“These are not my favorites. Although I liked Bergman when she played Hedda Gabler. It’s a great part.”
They portray innocence, grace, elegance, femininity to me, regardless of their acting skills.
“I think it’s the way they style themselves. They look elegant and sexy. There’s a way to still look sexy as you age and a way that screams …
From French women I observed and know (not many and they’re ordinary), they don’t spend tons of time or energy pursuing being “elegant and sexy” (most of them have no makeups). They just live with their cultivated habits according to the culture and very individual tastes. They look so confident, regardless of their physical appearance.
“I’m not sure how to put it … the woman is still trying to look 25. Or style herself as did at 25. French women don’t to that.”
These women are tacky and would be mocked to “death” in France.
“As a young woman, you get a lot of attention. As has been documented on here. It’s the way it is in Western society.
Are you talking about me personally? What has been documented here? You mean that I have been talked to/with was due to my perceived age, not contents I rambled about? Are you saying that if I’m old, no one would have ever chatted with me or simply ignored whatever I had to say? — Why❓Isn’t that age discrimination❓ That’s the way of the “progressed” Western society❓
“Jack Nicholson is a great actor, but he is aesthetically ugly. ”
That’s really harsh.”
That’s my true opinion, and I did not say it to his face; I’m positive that he could not care less what I or anyone think of him, which is his true “beauty”! Now, can I seriously ask you: when and where the word “ugly” could be used when it’s truthful to me? Ever or never?
“He’s not my idol. Nor is he really my type. But I think he has a lot of charisma. My point was … when you have it, you just have it. Age doesn’t diminish it.”
I think charisma is overrated in this culture, not sure about in Europe, definitely not in COO, where individualism is heavily hammered down. Charisma has a lot to do with personality and one’s mental and physical health…
“I don’t know how to answer that. I’d say separate friendship from romance. WHICH I KNOW YOU DON’T. 🙂 They feel like two separate feelings.”
I’m proud that I don’t. Romance and friendship are one’s two arms, that harmoniously function together and separately (like in playing piano) and keep the system (One’s overall wellbeing) run much better than one arm.
“I’m not big on it either but I’m fairly introverted myself. I wouldn’t want to date another introvert.”
I would NOT want to date any extrovert, including my father-type. There are some “flashy” stuff about them, very few of them are deep.
“Do you not see what you’re doing? Not accepting any responsibility and throwing it back on them? “
I accept my responsibility for speaking up my truths with good faith and good intention, like a surgeon to patient with a brain tumor. I accept the fact that my words (or anyone else’s words) could at any given time cause all sorts of reactions, due to all sorts of personalities out there. However, I don’t take responsibility for how to react or act towards whatever audience hear from me or anyone else; that’s their job. Again, I didn’t intend to hurt but to help with absolutely sincerity. Moreover, did anyone “die”? — the main audience even didn’t get what I meant to say….
“You got enough feedback to know how your words were taken.”
However my words were/are taken was/is not my issue; two sides of the coin always exist(s). If they are not taken effectively of positively, Ces’t la vie — it’s beyond my control. I’m still far away to catch up with Salman Rushdie’s spirit…
“I don’t think “tough love” works on most people.”
Please allow me to differ a bit here — “on most limerents” because they somehow ate too much “romantic/fantasy-sugar” 😃 . You’re right that “tough love” works only on Few, and I’d just want to deal with 🫂 those “few” who is capable of giving and taking tough love 💗🔫…
“It makes them defensive and shut down and everything you say, even if true, bounces off them.
If the words are true to them, then perhaps they could ask, “why do I feel so defensive against such truths?” Or “if they are untrue, why do I feel defensive instead of just shrug them off?” Or “whether true or untrue, why do I shut down in front of another’s subject opinons”? These are questions I often asked myself as I was facing the storms and ultimately survived them, becoming a better Stoic and more joyful…
“I think you can make some points and ask some questions to get them thinking, but I don’t think tough love affects how/when/if people grow. “
Get some deeply “drunken” limerent’s thinking? 🤔 Few are drowning in the LE swamp and insisting staying there with excuses; e.g I have the helpless “addiction”… I accept and forgive myself…. If you try to pull them out as many of us have done, they’d drag you down with their “irresistible” LOs and their persistant LE sufferings…
I don’t think soft or tough love can change anyone else’s thinking, behavior, and maturing, it’s fundamentally up to their own determination and efforts. A good surgeon needs to tell the truth to the patient, “you’ve got a brain tumor that won’t shrink and go away on its own (DrL’s feature article today), and it can mutate into cancer if you indulge your wishful behaviors. The best way is to surgically remove it — 📣 go to NC! (Regardless pre-friendship or not! When LE is totally gone, you can rebuild a brand new friendship with the same LO!)
“And I think you can do that. Put up a boundary. Or you can remove yourself from the conversation.”
Well, last month I did put up my boundary and directly made my complaint, after I had irrelevantly given a penny of my thoughts to many older timers in the past two years. Nowadays I firmly see that not in the shoes of any limerent with a SO, I simply don’t know how to validate or empathize with their cases . If you have paid attention, you’d notice that I mainly chatted with singletons + Adam + 🐝 🧙♀️ (they are special) for the past 3 months.
“It rarely works. Needling someone or waiting around forever … it’s a bad strategy.”
It takes two willing, matching body/mind/soul to tango in any relationship, not one chases or waits another, either like a hunter or a tearing baby. Only RECIPROCity matters in a relationship; anything else can be learned with certain amount of existing attraction and abilities.
Even after getting that desired someone, it has NO guarantee that the relationship would harmoniously work out and last. The mainstream culture in both West and East mainly pays attention to chasing and securing SO (w/o the church Bell), but rarely explore (with few literature/media) how to make a workable relationship/marriage afterwards.
The substantial, fulfilling union of body and mind takes both parties’ committed/constnat efforts to keep learning and teaching each other, giving and receiving the love, exploring, creating, and expanding their unique, mutual world, and growing independently together into their old age. The whole process itself is a rare beauty in life!
👒 👠 Marcia, you know I rarely flatter people but meant what I said and said what I meant. Your direct, truthful, occasionally acidic chats with me were never “merciless” to my ears, whether I agreed with or liked your points. Answering your tough questions has made me more aware and 👁️ myself better — you’re a mirror, showing me parts of me that I can or can’t see in myself, which is the true essence of interacting with others — Know Thyself!
I sincerely thank you 😊 🤗
To Miss Snow:
You won’t believe this–I dreamed about YOU last night.
I can’t remember any details, but I was wearing the same damn trenchcoat from YOUR dream!
There’s a comedy skit in there somewhere. I don’t even have a trenchcoat, nor do I like them.
😹 my dreams are contagious… 😂
It’s “dangerous” to tell one’s dreams — one’s Unconscious, but it’s best to learn about and relieve one’s stresses of all kinds— overt or covert ones…
Let’s see if lady Marcia will dream about me tonight… 😃
Miss Norma, I did/do not have a trench coat, and beige color in anything doesn’t work with me…
I actually used to have a forest green trench coat, but it was uncomfortable and I gave it away.
One of my daughters used to have a powder blue trench coat.
I can’t believe I just remembered that.
I am getting a surprisingly high number of birthday wishes today, for which I am very grateful.
LO texted me and said, “I feel blessed to have you in my life.” I thought, well, he should. Don’t know if I can say the same about him.
We were supposed to get together, but I think it has fallen through. I am grateful to notice that I don’t mind much. He said, “I’m glad you’ve turned another year older,” to which I responded that I am simply turning 12 again due to arrested development.
One friend gave me an orchid, another, balloons, and another, bundt cake.
So I am all set.
You need another friend to give you a bottle of wine.
Or a Limmy!
To L.E.:
I don’t drink, but I am sorely in need of a Limmy.
I am counting the minutes to dinner time so I can have that bundt cake for dessert.
It’s from a place called Nothing Bundt Cakes, and it’s FABULOUS. My neighbor bought me the chocolate-chocolate-chip one, which I have never had. OMG, I can’t wait!
ND,
Happy Birthday to you..
Hope you enjoy your Bundt cake..
I know Brother Adam would love to share some and Wine and Cheese with you. Followed by Lobster Bisque.. 🦞🦞😆 😂
To MJ:
Can’t drink wine, but would love the rest.
Well, I had my bundt cake all out and ready to eat, and LO called and wanted to get together.
So we spent about an hour together and he gave me some sweets from a place called Crumbl.
We had a nice time, no drama, and I noticed that I was able to enjoy his company without getting overly “limmy” around him. Maybe it’s wearing off. It certainly makes for a more stable friendship.
Happy belated birthday Norma!!
To Mila:
Thank you! It ended up being a lot better than I expected.
To MJ:
I want to go on the record as saying that I am unwilling to force Adam to eat any more lobster bisque, since I now know that he doesn’t really like it and was just being polite.
Since I can’t drink wine, I guess that just leaves cheese?
It probably doesn’t have to just be cheese. Brother Adam will provide you the finest meal money can buy. Whatever your preference. 😆
Happy belated birthday, Norma, and I’m glad your LO was nice to you. 🙂 I think I must’ve been limerent for a certain friend who’s gay, but just knowing they can’t or won’t return your feelings can help with the rumination, death of hope, things that help stop the obsessive thoughts. Then you can interact with them as friends. 🙂
I see MJ here spending Adam’s money! 😉
To Serial:
It is odd that I continue to be so obsessed with LO when I know he’s gay. It’s not as if he’s encouraging me, or misleading me in any way.
I am at a loss to explain this.
Yes, I noticed MJ is very free with Adam’s money! What’s up with that?
Dear Norma,
Happy belated Birthday!
So glad to hear you had such a good time; hope the rest of the year continues to trend your way.
You’re such a lovely lady!
To CatCyclist:
Thank you for your kind words.
I was very touched at the number of people who stepped up to offer good wishes yesterday.
I felt buoyed by all the support.
“Nothing Bundt Cakes”
I love it. A dad joke turned into a business name. I don’t eat sweets or cake much but when I do I like red velvet cake. There’s a specific kind of Bundt cake I like but I can’t remember what it is called. It is pretty mild with iced frosting. Maybe poppyseed?
There’s a nice upper end Italian restaurant close to where we live we can go to, since my Brother seems to know me all too well. The dish names aren’t even English. The descriptions are though. So when our waiter took our order (my wife and I went for our 20 year anniversary) I had to point out what I wanted based on said description. It was a spicy (and it was) pasta with clams, shrimp and lobster. It was very good. I had a few Samuel Smith’s Oatmeal Stout beers with it. Momma drove us back home. Very nice place to eat. And I am more of a fan of “fast food” or American-Italian than I am authentic Italian food. But it was good.
Personally I have never gotten the “cheese and wine” combo. I like them both. All kinds of cheese, especially blue cheese, and mostly cheap red wine. But I have never thought to combined the two. Cheese is a topping for food and wine is to drink …. because that’s what alcohol is for.
To Adam:
Thank you for that mouth-watering description. You guys sound like a lovely couple.
I did eat my bundt cake last night and it was amazing.
Tonight I will tackle LO’s offering from Crumbl.
Hello Mila and Bewitched. Very interesting to hear about both your LE experiences, great job with the progress.
For me, since the past interaction really knocked me over into sadness for some time, the craving to see LO has gone down, as I get reminded about the last time. Plus, for some reason, past couple of interactions did not lead to the highs that I felt before.
I think I would be okay not seeing LO ever again, as the cravings have significantly reduced, not zero though! However, this is not happening anytime soon, so that’s that. For now, I am just building resilience from the current NC time period. Cheers.
Hi ABCD,
just saw your post. It’s a long way but you seem to trudge along with determination and patience, you will make it to freedom, I‘m sure, maybe you already have.
Even though I don’t have any limerent cravings anymore and think about XLO seldom (sometimes I think visiting this is one of the main reasons I do- maybe should stop?), there’s still no absolute peace in that friendship.
But I feel that my last worries about friendship with my XLO bring further progress, even though they are slight and also feel like unnecessary stuff. When I bother to compare my inner relationship to XLO from month to month, there are always tiny changes for the better (meaning getting more balanced and everything getting even less important, resentment fading, expectations vanishing).
I hope you also notice these small shifts.
*“visiting this site“-
as much as it helped me, thank you again Dr L/Tom🙏🏻
I have to leave a review for the item that LO got me from Crumbl.
It’s called Dubai Chocolate Cheesecake, and it’s one of the best desserts I have ever tasted.
Sorry to say it put the bundt cake to shame. Good thing I ate that one first.
I ended up having a wonderful birthday.
Since my three adult daughters don’t speak to me, I dread holidays.
But this one was much nicer than I could have imagined.
Momma says my favorite dessert is lemon Bundt cake. I like cheesecake but it’s usually the store boxed stuff from the supermarket. This year for our anniversary we got a cheese cake that was OMG sweet and rich. I had one bite and I let Momma eat it. Sugar is not my dig. I’d rather have fries smothered in chili, cheese, jalapeño, onions and mustard than desserts. But how is my
sweet Miss Norma gonna be sweet without eating sweets. 🙂
To Adam:
I am glad you understand that.
Chocolate and cheesecake are two of my favorite things, so LO gets points for stepping up with that dessert.
I don’t know if he remembered that I like those things, or if it was just dumb luck. Either way, it was a delightful surprise.
LO liked White Chocolate Expresso and I bought it for her from her favorite local coffee shop numerous times. Me, before my heart condition, I just like black coffee. Now I can’t drink it. But to see her face when I’d bring it to her ….
It’s nice when someone lights up like a Christmas tree, isn’t it?
I think one of my problems is that LO is on the Grinchy side.
Somehow I have taken it on as a challenge to try to make him smile.
It’s tough going. I told him, “Too bad you had your sense of humor surgically removed.”
This is an uphill battle with him, and I don’t make too much of an attempt. First of all, it isn’t my job, and second of all, successes are so rare that it’s discouraging.
I can’t afford to get hung up on that.