It’s been a while since the last check in at the LwL virtual coffeehouse.
Normally, I’d kick things off with a topic for conversation, but this time, I’m just going to leave the discussion completely open.
Chat to your hearts’ content!
Here’s a cat contemplating his caffeine addiction.
I read someone talk about the “limmy awards” in other chat. I’m afraid I need to nominate myself for most spectacular relapse. No specific conversation details for you, but I recognize that my LE is an EA now. I’m not sure that my LO does.
I won’t be here again today until late. But I am interested in more perspective on what takes an LE into EA territory when it comes to the LO’s behavior.
I’m interested in how you made the distinction.
I’ve said things to my LO that I would never want my SO to know about, even before NC. It already was an EA then. I think my LO may be a party to multiple EA’s but other partners to those EA’s put up boundaries to end the EA, while I have done the opposite.
To Sapiens:
Oh, dear. I don’t have any insight on this. I must be one of the few here who is single, and my LO is also single.
Whatever I have had going on with LO would probably have been classified as EA, but I don’t know for sure, and it doesn’t matter anyway in my case.
On a lighter note, I think L.E. has to nominate you for that award.
I am angling for the Most Relapses In A Single Year award.
Go to the “Search the Site” box and type in “Emotional Affair.” It will return a bunch of hits.
Hi Norma,
Funny. I thought it was 50-50 but it’s not like I am keeping a database on this blog… No seriously, no DB, I just had that feeling. More new people who post are married and in more distress but I thought the ones who post the most regular besides Adam are mostly single. 🤷 There must be a survey in the archive somewhere. Curious but not enough to find out other than being spoon feed the info.
ND,
Because of the US Government shutdown, future funding for the Limerent Emeritus Foundation for Wayward Limerents is uncertain.
The Foundation, which has oversight of The Limmys, has decided to allow self-nomination for The Limmys. However, there is a $100 USD “processing fee” for each category under which the applicant wants to be considered.
To L.E.:
Well, I am blaming Trump for this one.
Hi Sapiens,
One more clarification, please.
It’s unclear to me if you are still NC but realized on reflection that the LE (for you at least) had really moved into an EA?
OR
You are no longer NC and the LE (again for you at least) has now moved into an EA? Thanks.
Not in NC anymore. I went into NC because I learned the term limerence while researching the line btw friendship and emotional affair several months ago. But NC stopped recently. I reached out first and the response was immediate. LO had missed me. Then LO reached out again, in the old pattern.
My LO knows how I feel, and that I’m not sure what I would do if LO made a move. All the power is in LO’s hands now. But… LO isn’t going to make a move.
When I am high on feels, I misread signals like crazy. “I missed you” becomes something much bigger than it really is. “I’m not sure I want a traditional relationship” becomes …open to non-traditional arrangement . But then, when I’m “sober” I see the truth in the words – LO is telling me it’s good that I don’t want to leave my SO because LO doesn’t want that from me anyway. LO is preoccupied with some other married friend who stopped texting even longer than I did. Then I think – how much more pathetic could I be?
I had the dim-witted idea that I would tell LO that the other married friend has put up defenses against an emotional affair, unlike me… I’d have phrased it softly and without blame. I instigated and LO barely reciprocated – except for expressing appreciation for the praise. And coming back for more – contacting me again and again. And missing it when it was gone. And telling me…
Sapiens means wise. Isn’t that funny now, in a way? At least I can laugh at myself as I get through each day, feeling pathetic.
Hi Sapiens,
I know you have a SO, you don’t want to leave the SO ( honestly you give mixed signals), you feel pathetic. Of course, you’re not pathetic. We may act pathetically, but we’re not pathetic. But what is making you feel pathetic in the LE situation, your feeling controlled by the LO, shame of the LE given you have a SO? Also can you describe your relationship with your SO?
What’s making me feel pathetic is that my LO is asking me to interpret the behavior of another married friend – could this one have the same feelings as I have? That is jealousy.
SO is a better life partner for me than LO ever could be. We aren’t physically affectionate outside the bedroom, but we are aligned on what we care about in life. And, I know this happens to others in LE’s, sex has been better – better than it’s been for 10 years – since I became so hot for my LO. My fantasy has an outlet, and SO is enjoying that, too. And yet it has not satisfied what is in my mind. A part of me just wants so badly to have someone new while my body is still good – in my prime. LO is my first choice in spite of big obstacles (mostly distance). I have been working with a therapist about this underlying issue.
„My LO knows how I feel, and that I’m not sure what I would do if LO made a move.“
Sorry not to have read every post- so you disclosed to her, or do you just assume she knows?
If you disclosed and she doesn’t reciprocate, but tells you stuff like „I missed you“just like that, I dislike that in her, I have to say. She should be more careful with the feelings you put into her hands, so to say.
I can absolutely relate to this
„ When I am high on feels, I misread signals like crazy.“
I remember misreading a text from LO2, my limerent mind changing a word to something like disclosure, and how I was so excited and exhilarated, until I (fortunately) read it again before answering and realized the real wording.
So stupid.
Before NC, my disclosure was just, when we meet next year, I know I am going to be very attracted to you. I know I am not innocent, but this was in response to LO’s direct question to me about what I find attractive during a flirty late night chat, after 6 months of such texting. My answer was: you! (More words.)
When I broke NC earlier this month, I made a much deeper disclosure about wanting to be with LO, in some way, even though I would not leave SO. This was after LO told me LO missed me, and LO was wondering if the NC was because there was something wrong with LO. LO even asked me this during the NC. During NC I just responded that there was nothing to improve. (It was not strict NC because I didn’t want to “be a dick.” I limited responses to one line texts on a 24-hour delay and no follow up.)
Hi Sapiens,
Sounds to me like disclosure or heavy flirting from your side and non-committing stuff that could be „friendship only“ from her side?
Were there answers to your very direct statements? I guess no, or more non-committing stuff.
She likes the attention, or she‘s politely evading your flirting because she appreciates you as a friend, either way I would stop right there.
You say you don’t want to leave SO, so maybe it’s a good thing LO isn’t reacting much on the disclosure, because it all sounds very risky to me.
Sorry if I‘m wrong but it sounds like if she would play along, you would be head over heels in a PA. I would think hard about if you really want that and if not, then maybe not leave it to her and fate, but decide yourself that you don’t want it?
Maybe I misjudge here completely, since I haven’t read all of your posts.
One can be swept away by the current of a text conversation and the heady stuff of „winning“ (getting reciprocation), but never lose the consequences out of sight.
Maybe I’m too gloomy today since weather is gloomy and I‘ve got a headache, so I do apologize if I sound way too alarmed and assuming.
To Mila and Sapiens:
Mila’s thoughts and conclusions to your situation are my own too. I’m a big believer of seeing things in a different perspective to gain insights. How would you feel if your SO filed for divorce tomorrow for whatever reason? Relieved by the freedom of a second chance at life OR going out of your mind to save your life partner, realizing you took her for granted during your LE? I don’t know the answer from what you’ve written.
Lastly, I think you have created ( it’s what the mind does and all limerents do. I did it so often.) this story where you have no control, it’s all in the hands of the LO, the SO is actually loving the increased sexual passion from you. So far so good and as Mila already said but I’ll say differently, it ain’t going to last. At least not very likely to.
Mila, I think you have me and my LE all figured out. Add to that: LO has not been lucky in love. SO is significantly better looking than LO – though LO is in better shape. I overlook that because I have wanted LO for so long. I think that LO knows this and doesn’t trust me to really act if there is an opportunity. Especially after my NC.
LO and I are both needy people who have an unhealthy interaction to get something missing from our daily life. There is a big obstacle to action, too, and that has made the flirtation safe. But I made it much less safe (for myself) in the past month.
To me, an EA is … let’s say you work together. You exchange numbers. Start texting. It gets quite personal. You share a lot. You’re texting daily. Multiple times a day. Maybe all day. Maybe it gets really flirty, really sexual. Essentially, what you would share and experience with your partner … that energy is going toward someone else. You’re each others’ go-to person if something goes wrong in your life. You’re leaning quite heavily on them and they on you. But it’s not physical.
That describes my interaction. Except it’s not multiple times a day. It’s more like 1-2 hour blocks, late at night. Over the summer, pre-NC, it was sometimes both nights of the weekend even when my SO was at home. It felt like dating by text. It was exhilarating.
But LO also asks me for advice on handling other “friendships” with married “friends” who stopped contact with LO abruptly. Hence my hypothesis about multiple EA’s. I wonder what drives LO to favor deepening friendships with friends who are already married.
Sapiens,
I would consider it, at least on your end, an EA.
I don’t know on her end. She could consider all of these guys friends. I was very naive before. I thought men could be close friends with a woman like a woman would be with her female friends. I think some can, but it’s rare.
” I wonder what drives LO to favor deepening friendships with friends who are already married.”
Attention. A built-in barrier so she doesn’t have to go “all in” or do more. They’re providing her with male energy while she waits for an available guy to show up ? Idk.
When I had my last big LO, I had some close guy friends. LO provided the … well … attraction jolt. The excitement. They provided me the support. But that’s me. (Yes, they knew about my feelings for my LO. I went to them for advice.)
“I wonder what drives LO to favor deepening friendships with friends who are already married.”
She probably knew you were with your SO during the weekend evening texting sessions (?)
You used the term in your own experience:- exhilaration; both exciting and illicit.
This and/or validation seeking due to insecurities (as in seeking your advice).
I think you maybe already know the answer to the question you posed here.
And maybe it would be better to focus on your own reflections of the reasons why you were secretly texting your LO for 1-2 hours on a weekend night with your SO sitting next to you.
I am not being judgemental in asking this. It’s just to try to help. I also have had to ask myself similar questions, but maybe not in this same scenario.
Hello Sapiens. Does look like an EA to me.
“I wonder what drives LO to favor deepening friendships with friends who are already married”.
With my LO, texting is minimal, and the meetings are also occasional.
I guess both of us are aware of the barriers, so that is probably why real and virtual contact is low.
Hi Sapiens,
If we take moralising out of the picture and just look at the psychology – there is undeniably a special type of thrill that can be got by doing something illicit, like the texting of your LO for 2 hour blocks on weekend nights. That same thrill can’t be replicated with an SO because it isn’t illicit.
The crashes that followed my similar ‘thrill seeking’ efforts were always spectacular. You’ve got to weigh the two up. There is no doubt it is difficult to nip this sort of ‘response to temptation’ behaviour in the bud (I really know it – I did off the charts bad things, like once spending the evening of Christmas day texting my LO for hours). But it can’t sustain for too long with an SO in the picture … and I think you know it. I wish you good luck with your renewed NC efforts.
This is how it happened for me. LO and I were coworkers of a sort and think it developed into an EA for a time. He got my number and began the texting but I continued it. I would text him late at night after my shift ended, usually to complain about something work related. Then he would respond in the mornings while he was rounding. I would be half asleep in the mornings waiting for his texts or he would call me while he was driving to his office after rounds. We had a lot of work conversations that turned personal quite often. Nothing sexual but usually personal. A friend/coworker we shared in common once called him on how much we texted and talked to each other and asked him if his wife knew about it. He didn’t have an answer for her.
Thank you to all who responded to my message yesterday. As I mentioned in my last response (to Hamlet), I am having trouble with reading too much into my LO’s messages. That indicates that there is a huge asymmetry in the EA – if it is one at all.
I think I will start NC again this week. This time LO will know why and probably will not contact me to find out what happened or if LO did something to upset me. It should be easier, in a way, for both of us.
In my opinion, the feelings have to be reciprocal and acted on in some fashion. An oblivious LO is not an EA.
„In my opinion, the feelings have to be reciprocal and acted on in some fashion.“
I also think that the word „affair“ implies that both are emotionally involved in the same way (in the way Marcia describes). If only one side is that much involved and the other one sees it only as friendship, can you still call it an EA? I genuinely don’t know , because the other side could be emotionally involved as much as the one who is aware of it, but not admit it to themselves.
Still, since this latter is something one can only guess at (and limerent guessing will always be biased and not objective), I’d say it‘s only an EA if both sides recognize that it‘s an EA.
I had this kind of friendship (texting for hours, text contact every day etc) with my XLO, definitely too much for partnered people, but even though I guess he was involved maybe even more than me, he never admitted it to himself or me, and I would never call it an EA, for me it’s still plain old limerent episode from my side and don’t-know-what from his side (unlike LaR, I lost interest in what it was for him)…
I am not in a good position to reply since I am not involved in this type of thing, but it seems to me that if a person is confiding in their LO rather than their SO, and something is being taken away from the marriage, that must qualify as at least some sort of EA?
Even if the LO is oblivious.
I don’t know. Perhaps Dr. Tom can clarify?
Mila,
“I would never call it an EA, for me it’s still plain old limerent episode from my side and don’t-know-what from his side”
And, honestly, you probably won’t ever know how the LO is feeling. I mean, you could ask. (“You” being the generic limerent.) But there’s no guarantee you’ll get an answer or an honest answer. I guess if the LO just offered the information without being prompted.
Hi Norma and Marcia,
I guess I’m just being a language stickler. I thought „affair“ implies a conscious engagement of both sides. But the definition doesn’t matter so much of course, because if that:
„ it seems to me that if a person is confiding in their LO rather than their SO, and something is being taken away from the marriage“ is the case, it’s time to stop and think, regardless if the other person is doing the same or not and regardless of the exact name one would give this kind of emotional dependency.
Marcia, exactly, and as I said, I lost interest in finding out whatever it meant to XLO, and I’m sure it‘s not clear to him either, so there‘s nothing to „find out“ really.
Mila,
I get Norma’s point. If you are putting a lot of energy and/or time into someone else, that could take away from a relationship with an SO.
But to me, “affair” implies some sort of heft. You’re sharing a lot with each other. You’re becoming dependent on each other.
You could have a decent amount of communication with someone. Doesn’t mean there’s much depth to it. And it doesn’t mean the other person has any dependence on you or is sharing much with you. Or they could be sharing a lot and think of you as a friend. Affair implies to me some sort of romantic interest on both sides.
I think limerents spend a lot of time trying to figure out how their LOs feel. I of course include myself in that category. But I think if it was that big of a deal to the LO, the limerent would know. The LO would tell them or make it clear. I think we limerents make this so much more complicated than it really is.
„ Affair implies to me some sort of romantic interest on both sides.“
That’s what I meant!
„ But I think if it was that big of a deal to the LO, the limerent would know. The LO would tell them or make it clear“
It’s not that easy though, especially when there are barriers, SOs. The LO could also be limerent and make a song and dance about every little gesture and be scared of disclosure. Unfortunately LOs are not always mature or handling the situation well, same as the limerents.
From the outside one thinks „what the hell, why don’t they just stop or talk about it“ but that’s the curse of limerence, no straight thinking or feeling.
Mila,
“It’s not that easy though, especially when there are barriers, SOs. The LO could also be limerent and make a song and dance about every little gesture and be scared of disclosure.”
I just don’t agree. At some point it’s going to bubble up. There’s going to be something in both the LO’s and limerent’s energies that allow that to come to fruition. I’m not sure any other way to put it.
If that doesn’t happen (and I’m making a sweeping statement here as I obviously can’t account for every situation) … the feelings aren’t strong enough, the LO doesn’t want you to know or it’s the limerent holding back. That happens as well.
Marcia,
but the limerent holding back doesn’t mean he isn’t limerent, ergo, the LO holding back doesn’t mean he isn’t limerent. It still means it could be mutual but you‘ll never know.
I think you overestimate the honesty of people a bit, or I‘m too sceptical (as I mentioned in another post, gloomy day today here)
Mila,
“but the limerent holding back doesn’t mean he isn’t limerent, ergo, the LO holding back doesn’t mean he isn’t limerent. It still means it could be mutual but you‘ll never know.”
I’ll use my last mini LO as an example. I realize you were already friends with your LO and already texting. But I had never communicated with him outside of work. And he randomly emailed me one day. Our short conversation was all very benign but it did get me wondering: Is he trying to open the door? I emailed him about a week or so later. And it started off friendly/jokey … but there was something in my reaching out again that let him know I was opening the door a touch more. And then he walked through it. Meaning, he disclosed his interest. My energy was open, his was, and he wanted to say something.
So if that’s not happening … one or both parties’ energies are blocked. And you can sometimes feel that. When the other party doesn’t want you go further. Or one or both parties don’t want to say anything. Or there aren’t feelings there to disclose. When I write “feelings,” I mean interest. I don’t necessarily mean some big, heavy declaration.
That looks like Marcia, Adam and myself sitting at that table on the left, in that top picture.
I wonder what we were discussing..
Surely wasn’t about limerence was it?? 😆😆
Just sip and gossip away your morning coffee ☕️ … and make efforts to kill all your LE….
Got to run to teach all day….
To Miss Snow:
I hope your day goes well.
Miss Norma,
Thank you! My day so far is really good! Dealing with young children is always so pleasant, they (4-9 yrs) are absolutely delicious.
I hope today brings you peace and joy! 💐
To Miss Snow:
I didn’t realize you taught such young people. I had assumed they were older.
A great opportunity to influence young minds!
Miss Norma,
This is a side weekend job, I love their rosy cheeks, cuteness, and curiosity… 😊
My week daytime work is with college.
🌺 to you!
To Miss Snow:
Thank you for the clarification. I had thought you taught college.
I admire your strength and energy.
To MJ:
Well, it definitely isn’t me. I am old enough to be those folks’ mother.
Plus I am rocking my dad’s crewcut from 1965.
All good ND.. I was just hoping my Lady Marcia would appreciate my noticing her.. I’m sure you look good just the way you are.
Besides my Brother Adam has exquisite taste in the opposite sex. He doesn’t take just anybody out for Lobster Bisque you know..
😉😁
To MJ:
Good to know. I appreciate the reassurance.
I cut all my hair off years ago when my kids got head lice.
I discovered that the G. I. Jane look agrees with me. Although I don’t look nearly as good as Demi Moore did in that movie.
Hamlet
I can’t find what thread you posted “Stand By Your Man” but these two songs conflict me from my own struggles and how my wife has stood by me despite alcohol and limerence.
A conversation I’ve had a lot with myself.
Drinkin’ Them Beers — Thompall Glasser
https://youtu.be/cHR5xFXZut0?si=Qii-bbX73Hx4NXE_
And my wife’s dedication to me.
I’ll Stand By You — The Pretenders
https://youtu.be/ABGPMw_ir08?si=r294EljESZjTIrXE
To Adam:
Allow me to contribute my own offering:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcATvu5f9vE&list=RDXcATvu5f9vE&start_radio=1
Addicted to Love by Robert Palmer? The link sends me to a mix from YouTube. So not sure if that’s what you intended or YouTube is glitching on me. If so that is quite the limerent song and I remember it playing on the radio a lot in the 90’s. Tie your Dali shoes tight and we can go dancin’ to this pretty lady. 👍
Dear Adam:
My Salvador Dali shoes have no laces.
So they’re as tight as they’re ever going to be.
I think they’re fine for dancing.
As Ronnie Milsap would say “I wouldn’t have missed it for the world” young lady.
Adam,
“When are we going on our date? I feel like I’ve known you for 5 years and you’ve been asking me and ND out for 10 years. I don’t like talkers! 🙂
To Marcia:
I’ve only been here about eight months, so that can’t be right (?).
ND,
It was a joke. That he ‘s all talk and no action. 🙂
Well I guess Dame Marcia the day you’re not so damn overy and hotheaded. And probably cause I’m not gonna cut in front of my brother. And Miss Norma is a nicer to me so 🙄
*ornery* lol
I’ve been more than patient. You’ve been talking about this for weeks.
And I’ve encouraged you to cut in front of your brother … like 5 times.
I can see the family resemblance … with your pace.
Norma D … maybe we should go younger. Those guys might move faster. 🙂
To Marcia:
I am pretty slow myself.
Not sure I could handle anything too racy.
ND,
“I am pretty slow myself.”
I don’t know how much time I have left on the planet. I’m going to have to move on. 🙂
Miss Marcia
We are too stubborn for each other. You think I like em young, you want em young. Don’t be so damn stubborn with brother. He’s just pacing himself. Be glad he’s not trying to reserve a hotel room at first glance.
My Dear Norma
That’s what endears me to you.
Adam,
Quite the limerent song…but back in a simpler time before I knew limerency. Now I see limerents everywhere! The movie Ghost with Demi Moore and Patrick Swayze… total limerent metaphor. It’s a story of a limerent trying to go NC on her LO, and free herself from her LE so she can live and love again. The original movie script had the story take place completely in the limerent’s head but that would be seen as “crazy” by most of the viewing audience. How do you film something taking place in someone’s head? They personify the LO as a ghost and now you have a love story you can film.
Adam,
“Be glad he’s not trying to reserve a hotel room at first glance.”
At least that’s taking some action. 🙂
An offer was made … but it does have an expiration date. I can’t keep the goods on the market indefinitely. That’s tacky. 🙂
Dame Marcia you are too much.
How did I get brought into this? And what’s with an expiration date? Why is that tacky? Goods can stay good as long as you’re taking care of them.. 😆
Btw, I thought you’d like to know NewGirl is 42.
I told you I can go for the 40 somethings. Or is she still to young??
@Adam, thanks for helping me out up there. 👆🏻
MJ,
“How did I get brought into this?”
Because your brother, for some bizarre and misguided reason, seems to think you have “dibs.” Which you do not. I’m a free agent. I will take the best and most timely offer. 🙂
” And what’s with an expiration date? Why is that tacky? Goods can stay good as long as you’re taking care of them.. 😆”
You both waited too long. I’ve moved on.
For all of you lamenting the fact your LOs have a lot of spinning plates … can you not see why?
“Btw, I thought you’d like to know NewGirl is 42. I told you I can go for the 40 somethings. Or is she still to young??”
I’m not entertaining this conversation until you ask her out.
Brother
Dame Marcia is Lucille Ball and Miss Norma is Mary Poppins. Imma sleep cause booze …. Cause Miss Norma is a due for some oysters?
“Dame Marcia is Lucille Ball”
Adam
I was hoping she would be more the Eve Arden type, but Lucy is ok. I’m just not always a fan of redheads. 😆
“Because your brother, seems to think you have “dibs.” Which you do not.”
Marcia
Here I thought I was moving the needle with you Woman. Will I never learn? I still think its because he’s younger and married.. 😆
Who did you move on with? I thought your Old Man was keeping you company. I can’t keep up. You must keep a full rolodex. Must be nice. Wish I could just pick up someone at random and take them for coffee.
“I’m not entertaining this conversation until you ask her out.”
We’ve been working a lot and I have other challenges to work around. I was actually thinking of asking her for next weekend but I can’t be certain it will happen. She seems totally ok with the current arrangement but I’ll keep you posted.
To Adam:
No, Miss Norma is not due for any oysters.
No oysters. Ever.
MJ,
“I was hoping she would be more the Eve Arden type, but Lucy is ok.”
Eve Arden … the actress in “Mildred Pierce”? If so, I’m actually impressed.
“Here I thought I was moving the needle with you Woman.”
I have been VERY, VERY clear about what moves the needle with me.
“I still think its because he’s younger and married.. 😆”
He’s not young enough. 🙂
“Who did you move on with?”
No one, actually. I’d rather move on to nothing than wait for flim flam. 🙂
“Eve Arden … the actress in “Mildred Pierce”? If so, I’m actually impressed.”
Marcia
See? You think Ol MJ is just some blue collar Union redneck from the Midwest, that likes his blue eyed blondes, along with a Bud Light, some chips and some football on the boob tube, don’t you? 😆😆
Yes that Eve Arden. I love her. She also had a great show of her own called “Our Miss Brooks” Its hilarious. You should look it up. I’ll bet you also didn’t know she played the Principal at Rydell High in the movie “Grease”..
Yes that famous “Grease” movie from 1978..
We were 7.. 😉😆
MJ,
“See? You think Ol MJ is just some blue collar Union redneck from the Midwest, that likes his blue eyed blondes, along with a Bud Light, some chips and some football on the boob tube, don’t you? 😆😆”
No. I just kind of assumed you’d like a young Pamela Anderson or Megan Fox type. (Sigh, that I had to write “young” Megan Fox … because she’s under 40. But I know how you are.) Btw, I don’t have an issue with a blue collar man. A downtown dude. 🙂
“I’ll bet you also didn’t know she played the Principal at Rydell High in the movie “Grease”..”
I did know that.
She projects a kind of no-nonsense intelligence. Ok. You got a point for that one. 🙂 (Tbh, I wouldn’t have cared if you liked the vixen type. It’s still a more interesting choice :))
I actually met Eve Arden once at a doctor’s office.
She was elderly then.
She was charming.
This is to Adam:
Could you please clarify the Mary Poppins comment?
Also, not sure why you think I want oysters? I know they’re supposed to be a sexual stimulant. I certainly don’t need that, ugh.
Miss Norma
I mean it in that your are a nurturing soul like Mary Poppins was to the children in her care. Lucia Ball was a powder keg like Dame Marcia. Chaotic, unpredictable and fiery. While Mrs Adam is very much both, I don’t think I could handle Dame Marcia. She’s mean to me. But you’re nice to me. 😝 The oysters are just because I like them and didn’t know if you would too. Momma gets 🤮when she watches me eat oysters. She also not on board with me liking anchovies on my pizza.
To Adam:
I could probably watch you eat oysters without barfing, but I can’t guarantee it.
I like anchovies in a Caesar salad.
Thank you for the clarification on Mary Poppins. I hated that movie, but I do try to be kindly and nurturing.
“I don’t think I could handle Dame Marcia. She’s mean to me.”
Adam
She can be mean to me too but I think she does it out of love. I mean how can she not love poor poor Limerents like us? We need good, Feisty Women like her to get us in line and set us straight. 😂
MJ,
“She can be mean to me too but I think she does it out of love.”
More like frustration. 🙂
And you don’t have dibs. It’s my package. I get to be the one who determines who gets dibs. 🙂
“It’s my package”
Marcia
You said “package” 😆
(Laughing in Butthead style over here)
Good to see you’re in ownership mood tonight as I should’ve expected. Upon you seeing my name come up on comments and curious what I’m chatting to my Brother about.. 😆
“I just kind of assumed you’d like a young Pamela Anderson or Megan Fox type. (Sigh, that I had to write “young” Megan Fox)”
I figured you would take me for being that type. Actually Pamela Anderson has never done anything for me. About the same with Megan Fox. Even in her younger days. Although I did do a double take or three, when she had a few scenes in “Two and a half Men” from years ago. Have to admit, she looked pretty good in a bikini top..
MJ,
“Upon you seeing my name come up on comments and curious what I’m chatting to my Brother about.. 😆”
Of course. You know how nosy I am. 🙂
“I figured you would take me for being that type. ”
Actually, you’d earned major points with me if you’d have said a young Madonna in her early, slutty phase. 🙂 Seriously.
But Eve Arden is a good choice.
I’m going to tell you a little secret. My last big BO was a bit of a redneck. Didn’t see that coming, did you? 🙂
“Actually, you’d earned major points with me if you’d have said a young Madonna in her early, slutty phase.”
Marcia
There’s another one I never really into much. Probably because she was always older. I think I liked her for about 5 minutes. Which was about the time Material Girl came out. I remember liking that video with her and the guys all dressed up. That whole Like a Virgin phase, with her swinging around in a wedding dress was hot, but I still wasn’t all that into her and I think thats because I just wasn’t into her type of music.
I did however think “Crazy for You” was always nice. She was in her prime singing voice then and thats just a very thoughtfully arranged piece of music anyway. (Holy crap. Visionquest. What an ancient movie. Thanks for making me feel old and dirty 😆.)
The only song of hers I ever really really liked was “Justify my Love” (Probably because Lenny Kravitz wrote it and he’s awesome) It was a very sexy song and the video was pretty hot too, if I remember right.
“My last big BO was a bit of a redneck. Didn’t see that coming, did you? 🙂”
Well since my only idea of you is Jeannine Garafolo, no I can’t really see that working out. Although I don’t know. Maybe you would look good in a pickup truck. 😂 (NewGirl drives a Big Ford F-150 Raptor and she hardly comes off redneck-y..)
I have no room to talk. I used to own a big 4×4 Ram and I hardly consider myself redneck, so pardon the correlation.
MJ,
“Probably because she was always older.”
So a woman in her mid-20s was too old for you, even then? The music stars I liked when I was a teenager were in their mid-20s or so. Those guys seemed exciting and dangerous. They were grown men.
“That whole Like a Virgin phase, with her swinging around in a wedding dress was hot, but I still wasn’t all that into her and I think thats because I just wasn’t into her type of music.”
Because you were too busy listening to Twisted Sister ? 🙂
“Thanks for making me feel old and dirty 😆”
Don’t you feel like that all the time, without me having to prompt you? 🙂
“It was a very sexy song and the video was pretty hot too, if I remember right.”
I like that song, too. She looks great in the video but that was after she lost weight and worked herself into looking like a machine. I think she looked better in the very early days, with just a little more jiggle. 🙂
“Well since my only idea of you is Jeannine Garafolo, no I can’t really see that working out. ”
That’s another woman I approve of. She’s attractive and very funny.
Ah … but that’s why I liked him. We were so different.
“she hardly comes off redneck-y..”
I don’t think of redneck as an insult. As long as it’s who someone authentically is.
“So a woman in her mid-20s was too old for you, even then?”
Marcia
Not really, I was probably just more focused on my nerdy-ness back then and inability to relate to the opposite sex. Go figure. Not much has changed.(My middle school crush was actually 2 years older than me).
When it came to older Women in music, I had a big crush on Susanna Hoffs from the Bangles. Then somewhat for Belinda Carlisle from the Go-Gos. Also Sheena Easton (Think I mentioned that to L.E. in another post, lol) I even crushed on Kim Carnes at one point because I liked her blonde hair and something about her raspy voice on Bette Davis Eyes was freakin hot.. (And do you now begin to see why I became a freaky limerent? 😂)
Twisted Sister, (what is that? Lmfao!!) yes I had that album. Didn’t every Boy in 8th grade? And Quiet Riot? (Had a few of theirs too) They really weren’t my favs though. I was listening more to AC/DC (pre and post Bon Scott), Pink Floyd and Rush. Those were more my go-tos in my collection.
“Don’t you feel like that all the time, without me having to prompt you? 🙂”
I do.. 😆
(What is this turning into? A wedding?)
“That’s another woman I approve of. She’s attractive and very funny.”
Well I’m glad my tastes have garnered your approval. I like her style and kinda low-key vibe, while still being hilarious. If you like it a little more raunchy, look up Brittany Schmitt on YouTube. I find her super attractive and funny too.
(I just wonder what happens now, when/if you don’t approve.. 😆)
MJ,
“My middle school crush was actually 2 years older than me.”
I had crushes on boys my age, too. But the adult male rock stars were just hot.
“When it came to older Women in music, I had a big crush on Susanna Hoffs from the Bangles. Then somewhat for Belinda Carlisle from the Go-Gos. Also Sheena Easton (Think I mentioned that to L.E. in another post, lol) I even crushed on Kim Carnes at one point because I liked her blonde hair and something about her raspy voice on Bette Davis Eyes was freakin hot…”
Those aren’t bad choices.
“Twisted Sister, (what is that? Lmfao!!) yes I had that album. Didn’t every Boy in 8th grade? And Quiet Riot? (Had a few of theirs too) They really weren’t my favs though. I was listening more to AC/DC (pre and post Bon Scott), Pink Floyd and Rush. Those were more my go-tos in my collection”
Outside of Pink Floyd and Rush, the others are pretty juvenile. Doesn’t mean I don’t like them. 🙂
I’m surprised you didn’t mention Motley Crue. 🙂 Your musical taste reminds me of one of the album reviews Rob Reiner reads to the members of Spinal Tap about their work. “The musical growth rate of this band cannot even be charted. They are treading water in a sea of retarded sexuality and bad poetry.” Have you seen “This is Spinal Tap?” It’s funny.
“(What is this turning into? A wedding?)”
Huh?
“Well I’m glad my tastes have garnered your approval. ”
There really aren’t any women you could name I wouldn’t approve of. Now, there are some you could name who would reveal to me you were super boring. 🙂 But so far you haven’t done that.
Yeah well Pink Floyd is on a whole new level (yet to be achieved by anyone) of white guys with guitars. Grouping them with “rock & roll” or “hair bands” is insulting. As someone who grew up in the 80’s and 90’s with rap, R&B, soul and jazz, all that “white boy” music had no appeal to me. I was 18 before I heard Aerosmith and Slayer (yeah I know polar opposites in “rock”) for the first time and was totally unimpressed. By my early 20’s a co-worker loaned me his Wish You Were Here Pink Floyd CD and I realized what I was missing and tried to get more open to such kinds of music. And while I like some of it, like AC/DC, no one has reached Pink Floyd’s level. They are in a class of their own.
Now if you will excuse me, youtube is playing one of my favorite Barry Manilow songs ….
Adam, good songs. I guess copying that link put up the biopic Tammy and George on my wife’s Amazon Roku feed. My wife had never heard of George Jones but of course knew the song Stand by Your Man. She watched the movie last night. 5 minutes in she’s telling me that George Jones is a horrible person. 😂 But she did watch it all. I’ve loved country music pretty much all my life. The Opry stars but really my heart is with The Outlaws, especially Willie Nelson, and then Johnny Cash who was kinda on his own. I love almost every type of music but I occasionally play some favorites or an album of country these days.
Hamlet
That’s funny cause I’d never heard that song before so I asked my wife if she knew it. She said “yes. Do you know who she’s talking about?” I said no and then she told me the whole story. Only song of his I like much is He Stopped Loving Her Today. I’m a yankee married to a southerner that was born a stone throw from the Canadian border in Minnesota and am now in the Deep South. I’ve just started listening to country music here recently. I think Conway Twitty is fastly becoming my favorite. Though some “modern” singers like Ty Herndon, Hunter Hayes and Terri Clarke I like a lot too. Okay okay I like watching Terri Clark sing too. Fine I’ll admit it. What man wouldn’t like her to be their Dirty Girl. 😏
Adam,
I didn’t bring up that song because I figured if you did know it, you probably cried every time you hear it and I didn’t want to bring up such thoughts for you. If you didn’t know it, doing so would be like introducing cocaine to Len Bias on draft day. 🤔😄 I’d be shocked if you don’t have it in your will to play that song at your own funeral.
I do like the mixture of rap and country, Nelly and Lil Nas X. Yeah…I’m not into the young female singers like you. 😂 I like popular songs often sung by young women, couldn’t tell you who sings them 90% of the time, but my days of watching MTv music videos and knowing all the artists are long long past for me.
Hamlet
While I was born in Minnesota when my material grandfather died we moved to St Louis. So I grew up with rap/R&B/soul/jazz. I have my favorites like Biggie, A Tribe Call Quest, Boogiemonsters, Getto Boys, P Diddy and Too Short. My poor YouTube algorithm can’t keep up with me going from Da Brat to Conway Twitty to Air Supply. 😂 I took me a long while to listen to country music. But have no fear I’m not like my brother is with Christina Carpenter as I am with Terri Clarke. That woman is now in her 50’s and looks better than me approaching my 50’s myself. I’d take Sigourney Weaver on a date the same I would our own Miss Norma.
“But have no fear I’m not like my brother is with Christina Carpenter as I am with Terri Clarke.”
Adam
Christina Carpenter?? 😂
Small correction my Friend. Her name is Sabrina and she’s almost as beautiful as LO. (Notice I said “almost as” because she’s not. 😆)(A whole lot of similarities though. 🥰)
I know you really don’t care. Just wanted to bring
this to your attention. Because I know if I didn’t, my Boo Marcia, would call you on it and make fun of you again..
That silly Marcia. I don’t know what I’m gonna do with her sometimes.. 😆
(Btw, I am calling dibs 🤣)
My bad brother, yes Sabrina Carpenter. I watched a short on youtube of an interview of hers where the interviewer asked if people asked if she is related to The Carpenters. She said she does get asked it a lot, but no, but that she does like their music. She seems like a genuinely sweet girl. Very polite and always smiling. I don’t think I have ever listened to her music, but I am sure she is talented in her genre. Maybe I will get to trying her music out, as I have been trying to spread my musical wings a little more in my old age. Here lately I am on a country kick.
I’m not sure if I love her style of music, but she does have a few tracks that really highlight the pretty voice she has. She was also pretty good on SNL a few weeks ago and looked even better prancing around in that “Manchild” number she performed live.
Not gonna lie, her and LO are very similar in features but LO is not as shapely as Sabrina..
Or perhaps I should just write, LO is shapely in her own unique way, different from Sabrina..
Ok, well thats enough ruminating for this chat.. 😆
I’ll still pick LO over Sabrina every time..
🥰😂
No topic is given, yet I open it up and there are already 20 comments. This is a chatty bunch! 🙂
To Serial Limerent:
Help! I’m talking and I can’t shut up!
29 comments now! 😉
Hello all. Nice to see everyone here. As I mentioned sometime back, I have also had sort of a relapse. The LE embers were ignited back. The reciprocation from LO really led to my feeling down afterwards, though we had a great interaction, our warmest yet.
As very interestingly mentioned by Mila in an earlier post, the previous highs and lows have been replaced by either very short highs followed by longer lows, or in some case, pretty much zero high, and long low.
For now, I am just pushing on through, and hoping to feel better soon. As mentioned by another LwL friend, I am trying to take this as a blip, rather than a full on setback. Hopefully, NC and passage of time will work to make things better. They always do.
Mentally, this has been the toughest thing that I have experienced, but I am determined to move on.
Have a great weekend, all!
Hi ABCD,
„Hopefully, NC and passage of time will work to make things better. They always do.“
I wish you the best, it‘ll get better soon.
Is NC easy to maintain in your case?
Thanks Mila. I am feeling better now.
NC happens for 1-2 months at a stretch. Full NC is not happening, so I just try to ride out each interaction.
I was hoping to reach a state when the interactions do not bring me down as much. Have not gotten there yet, maybe in the future.
I just started listening to an interview with Anthony Hopkins and the story he told of his second epiphany really connected with my own LE story. The details, timeline, everything actually between Anthony Hopkins story and my own are totally different but the same epiphany or clarity of resolve is what ties our stories together. That clear resolution is ultimately what led to me overcoming the LE. The resolve is just the beginning though. The mechanics and work to actually change are a whole other story. That’s where the resources here, therapy, self reflection, peyote shaman rituals in Arizona, whatever all play a role. But it all has to start with the resolve to be a different better person than you are today so that you can have the types of healthy relationships that make you and those you are involved with happy. Anyway…. the story of his second epiphany starts at 3:50: https://youtu.be/1mbe4F3YBqw?si=X2uzRisbdaubHkO8. Aside: I came right here after hearing that epiphany in the interview and haven’t listened to the rest. I really hope that he doesn’t change course in the rest of the interview. 🤷🤔😂
I’ve hit 11 months of NC on my end. I haven’t initiated any texts, calls, or interacted with him on social media. He did text me happy birthday and called once in those 11 months but I didn’t interact more than was polite, so I still count it NC on my end. In the past any of that would have had me giving in to the desire to go back to old habits of frequent texting and calls. I still miss our conversations and still have the impulse to share random things with him but I’ve continued to resist the impulse. I think the longer I’m NC on my end he’ll eventually forget about me won’t pursue any more contact on his end. Counting down the days till I make it 1 year.
I wish you continued resolve. I broke NC because I thought I could not bear to lose touch with my LO forever.
In retrospect, I wish I had called a Limerence Emergency Hotline instead.
1-800-GLIMMER, what is your emergency?
To Sapiens:
What a wonderful idea! I like the way you think.
Sapiens,
“1-800-GLIMMER, what is your emergency?”
It’s the song “Operator” by Atlantic Star. 1984. One of the best years for music.
Operator, this is an emergency
Operator
Baby, don’t hang up on me
Midnight Star …
Thank you for your comments today.
To Lost Girl:
Wow. Eleven months. I can’t even hit eleven weeks.
I can’t even hit four weeks.
Oh, well, at least there’s that Limmy Award to look forward to.
Lost Girl,
Great to see you here and read your update. Good for you to staying resolved to NC despite the temptations.
I recognise also the random ( and relevant ) things you mentioned that prompts the urge to connect. It’s very difficult not to reach out when there is a genuine connection.
We both came here to LwL around the same time a long time ago now !
I’m around 6 months NC now, mostly due to circumstances changing (not me being stronger).
Year end ( Christmas/ New Year holidays ) will be the next main challenge in the contact challenge I guess.
Best wishes
„ Year end ( Christmas/ New Year holidays ) will be the next main challenge in the contact challenge I guess.“
That reminds me of frederico. Hope he‘s ok!
Who was the first to wish happy holidays or happy new year in the last years, you or LO?
I would advise not to think of it now. It‘s still two months, and things/attitudes/states of mind can change a lot, so better not waste time now on resolutions or plans.
Hi Mila, but now you asked the question. Ha ha !
Yes, I am trying not to think about it yet. Much to do before then in every avenue of life.
Ah dear frederico ! I also hope he is doing ok and in a happy place. Such a lovely person.
I also wonder on Nisor too and latest from Lost in Space and some others too.
Hi Imho,
sorry, I know, I wasn’t helpful😂
But I mean it- no matter what virtuous or risky plan you might make now, it‘ll look different in a few weeks, so why bother now.
Yes, I wonder sometimes about old LwLers too. Sometimes they suddenly surface again. I like to think that they found peace of mind and distance from old pain and worries that might have brought them to this site.
I do hope that Frederico takes holidays to the seaside from time to time and buys flowers from friendly Adonisses (this plural sounds completely wrong).
I also imagine frederico in new smart clothes at a fancy hotel on the riviera.
I would be happy to initiate sending Christmas greetings to him without overthinking it.
„I would be happy to initiate sending Christmas greetings to him without overthinking it.“
Me too, like I send 😘to you. Isn’t it funny how we don’t hesitate with virtual strangers, but with LOs we count every word if it’s too much..
Sorry to butt in but I was downing a quick Espresso at the next table and overheard your girls chat.
“Isn’t it funny how we don’t hesitate with virtual strangers…”
It’s weird. I’d say people here are far from strangers to one another (you two are a good example) because we share information at a level of intimacy and importance to us, that we don’t with basically anyone in real life. And yet any of us could walk past each other in the street today and be none the wiser.
“…but with LOs we count every word if it’s too much.”
That’s because every word with an LO *is* too much in terms of consequences in our thinking.
Imho, I understand why the decision about holiday greetings carries risks … because almost all responses you could get in turn carry (different) risks?!
Hi LaR,
just saw your response that came in while I was writing my latest rant..
Yes, it‘s true that we understand and know each other better in some areas than many of our friends in real life, don’t we. Do you think that’s only possible because our lives don’t touch otherwise and nothing else interferes the understanding? Or would we click on real life too?
So if you all really already want to talk about holiday greetings😂, of course every kind of response needs to be prepared for, meaning that the response shouldn’t be important. If LO doesn’t respond one should be prepared for it without disappointment, if they suddenly gush back with loads of emotional stuff, one should be prepared how to deal with it. Also, one should be prepared that even if we don’t send anything, LO might, or might not.
Me, I advised against deciding too soon because in the past I made virtuous resolutions of NC and not sending anything, only to realize in the last moment that what would make me feel good and free would be to send a non- special nice text like to everyone else. I just realized that when the time came, so all the virtuous resolution-time was wasted energy. Just saying…
Well done, Lost Girl! I know there is a huge temptation to reach out to LO to share stuff, as you said. Kudos for not giving in to it, it takes a lot of will power.
Mila, ha! And I was also having a ramble back to Sapiens, at the very same time you were, about how to attempt to unpack an LE into a worthwhile friendship! (Another lap round the endless 🐌🛖). I was busy last weekend and missed most of that chat, so I thought I’d throw my oar in late.
“Do you think that’s only possible because our lives don’t touch … or would we click on real life too?”
Hard to say. I think there are never guarantees that people who only know each other online would click in real life. And yet, and yet … if I find myself drawn to / talking to certain posters more than others, then there are reasons for that on both sides – and it would increases the chances of clicking with those people versus with those we don’t engage with as much.
There are certain yardsticks like … does the person get my humour and tone? Do they get when I’m having a good day or a bad day, and that what I write changes depending on that, and they can be Ok with it? Those are all good signs for being able to click, and I’d say apply collectively too.
Imho,
I think Mila makes a great point in her response to me, worth you listening to … that all the planning and resolving in the world could well be pointlessly wasted energy, because it ends up being overriden in the moment by what we instinctively feel is ‘right’ … so your efforts are better directed at preparing to be Ok with different kinds of response, or no response, etc etc, than trying to second-guess what you’ll feel like doing in 2 months time.
Hi LaR,
You are always welcome to pull up a chair at the girls table.
Thanks for the advice which is sound. I am trying not to think about it or plan anything, but you guys keep talking about it 😉!
I once dreamt you and I were on a bus together and somehow it came out in the conversation that we knew each other from here. 🚜 😂
And I have,in my head, relayed to Mila in person my entire LE story, with all the details. I guess it’s because I haven’t verbally told anyone out loud and it needed an outlet. (In hindsight , maybe I should have gone to a therapist, just to offload if nothing else).
I think we would get on IRL for the reasons you outline, but who knows for sure. Mila’s voice and accent will not match what I have created in my head, that much I know😀
„ Mila’s voice and accent will not match what I have created in my head, that much I know😀“
Ha, yes! I still haven’t managed to listen to that android phone‘s voice you assigned to me. You would probably be appalled at my real accent! I can write better than talk in English.
I would love to hear your LE story though. Without wanting to brag, people like to offload to me. But they complain too that I never tell them my own worries. I think I could offload to you or LaR since I already know you would react with care and empathy. Sigh! Let’s meet in your dreams on the bus again. Or on LaRs tractor. Although that might be too noisy.
To Lost Girl:
Please consider doing something special for yourself when you hit that one-year mark.
I got a little help from ChatGPT on where to go from here with my LO/friend. It ended with the following mantra:
“Connection is not the same as temptation. We can choose the kind that protects what we value.”
I know that NC is the best medicine for Limerents. But … my LO has been important to me for more than 25 years. Even though we have not been in touch continuously over that time.
When I saw LO checking me out on social media 5 years ago, it was like seeing my favorite star in the sky again after not seeing it for 15 years. That may say something terrible about the state of my marriage. I don’t know. My children are like sunlight to me. My SO is like the moon – waxing and waning but there for me, close, night after night. My LO is a distant star that captivates me, unreachable, and fortunately far away. I don’t want to lose touch for another 15 years. But I also want to be responsible, and a good model for my children.
To Sapiens:
I am intrigued by your comment about ChatGPT.
I am not sure what that first sentence means, “Connection is not the same as temptation.”
I am not above asking ChatGPT for help, but I am too scared to go look for myself.
Besides, if I am going to get responses that I don’t quite understand, that is not going to be helpful.
Sapiens,
Beautifully written, the astronomical theme!
We instinctively know what we want and should do – maintain a connection and friendship with this special person without anything inappropriate.
Chat GPT can tell us that we have a choice and that there is a difference between connection and temptation.
But we are human, and our crazy visceral attraction drivers are not logical and are difficult to switch off, as we know.
I guess it’s the question if you/one can honestly handle the continued connection without the yearning ?
And if you don’t want to go full NC, which I can understand, what is your plan and new rules of engagement to not compromise your values, your commitments or your mental health.
You don’t need to answer this here of course.
It will be hard, but that is the transformation of limerence into love: doing what is truly best for all persons involved, because not only two people have stakes.
I will see if I have it in me… The temptation is difficult, but I feel (partially) like I got the validation I wanted already. I got and I gave it. Time to move on from this dangerous place. We truly care for each other. In some ways that makes it more dangerous, but it also reinforces moral clarity.
More cynically, I also benefit from the long distance. Each decision point of consequence takes a few months, not a few days – let alone a few minutes.
ChatGPT is quite the moralist. It’s a good influence on me. Neither judgmental nor complicit. A real stand up AI.
Hello Imho and Sapiens. What you both said resonates a lot with me. LO and I do share a limited, but continued connection, and I try to not make too much out of it – sometimes I am successful, and sometimes I am not. The urge to pursue this is so strong at time, have been fighting with it for a long time.
Ideal situation of course would be to have the connection, without the longing, as you said.
Similar to Sapiens, both of us have also got validation from each other. Don’t know if it makes it harder or easier.
Hi Sapiens, Imho, ABCD,
„We instinctively know what we want and should do – maintain a connection and friendship with this special person without anything inappropriate.“
„ I know that NC is the best medicine for Limerents. But … my LO has been important to me for more than 25 years“
„ Ideal situation of course would be to have the connection, without the longing, as you said.“
These are my repetitive thoughts of the last years, as many of you know.
I‘m just not sure if that is possible in the way we wish.
I‘m still friends with LO2, but only because he moved away and we have very sparse but warm contact.
I‘m still friends with LO3, but it’s not the kind of friendship I wanted to keep while fighting limerence. The kind of warm special friendship I thought I had and wanted to keep turned out to be an illusion, mostly created by limerence.
We still had a nice friendship back then, but bow I’m not ready (yet?)for a complete return to warmth and ease, and not sure I will ever be.
I waver between reasons for that. Sometimes I think it’s because he really is an emotionally more stunted, more egotistical person than I thought and I just finally got it – sometimes I think it‘s because me, I‘m not yet able to be relaxed with him and cannot have an easygoing friendship again, so I should accept that and write this friendship off, at least for a while.
I had recently adopted the last reason because it felt right to say it’s all on me, I should face defeat and just accept that this person is off my friend list because I cannot do it, no fault of his, only mine- pity for him and me, but that’s that.
But he continues texting in a way that makes me consider the first reason again (him just not being the person I could have that sort of connection with that I thought I had).
Probably it’s a bit of both, I guess.
What I want to say by my rant:
My main goal was to keep the connection without the longing, just like you.
But it wasn’t that black and white- turn the limerence off and keep the unchanged other stuff.
Once limerence faded, the whole picture changed, and there were wounds or scars and self-protective habits that I trained onto myself while fighting limerence etc.
First, this „special connection“ had never been the one I thought I had while limerent (limerence enhancing everything to „special“), and then the whole feeling of friendship or connection changed throughout the process.
As I said, not as easy as „switch one off and keep the other“. All is connected and one changing will change the other, at least in my last LE.
Sapiens,
You said you’d known LO 25 years. You don’t have to answer any/all of this (obviously), but have you been limerent (for this same LO) previously during that time? Or is that only in this last 5 years? And have either or both of you ever disclosed feelings?
“We truly care for each other. In some ways that makes it more dangerous, but it also reinforces moral clarity.”
Both sides of this (brilliantly said) point capture stuff I’ve expressed repeatedly here about my LE too. I was friends with my LO for a decade before she glimmered for me. This makes me feel there is definitely a relationship worth protecting under the limerence, and think it has always reinforced my resolve (possibly hers as well) not to act rashly or to disclose. Sometimes I think I am telling myself stories to rationalise it, but more of me thinks it is actually true that there is a bond worth protecting.
My interpretation of what you mean by the ‘more dangerous’ side … that the fact you genuinely care about each other makes it harder to sever the tie??
If I was being devil’s advocate to you, I’d say ‘wouldn’t severing the tie be the kindest thing you could do for each other, long term?’. I don’t know if I could carry that through (haven’t had the chance to try even if I wanted to). I did it with a previous LO and it proved the right decision for me, but I was so much less emotionally invested that time.
The other thing in what you’ve said that rings alarm bells is how your LO is doing the same thing with other married people and trying to get your advice on it. This tells me that either LO is trying to steer your relationship towards friendship, or that you are being triangulated in what looks like a pattern of behaviour for LO.
No, the dangerous part is that there is true mutual affection, and attraction. LO has told me how great I am, just not in the way I wanted in the moment, before. I’m sad right now but committed to recalibrating for goodness instead of danger. If LO lets me. LO has not run from my feelings yet, even though we both know they are not actionable. Only I’ve run from that. I need to grow up. And not running is how I’m going to do that, this time. Even if if hurts.
A bit of sentimentality here — 💭
On Saturday, I brought my last bag of old clothes for that second hand shop, to get rid of it (after sitting near my door for over three weeks) and to check out the flowery LEG and his bf. The handsome BF said hello to me (as to every customer) with a recognizing look, I could not care less!
This time they took two pieces of dresses — the black flapper dress was still with a label, and the dark orange one patterned with cherries/black dots and a wide black rim (looking like a piece of painting) was with me for over 1 or 1.5 decade(?) Everyone thought it was an interesting piece.
I’m not a hoarder, trust me; However, I would not trade anything in the world with a thick, dark-orange, wool winter coat, two sizes larger, my father bought me when I was 14. I complained at the time it was too big, he said, “there was no smaller size, but the quality is so good. You can wear it when you get fat in the future.” I never grew fat enough to fit in the coat…
When I went back to fetch the bag, LEG received me. He said they decided to take the two pieces and I could leave the rest of them for charity or take them home. As he was getting paper work done and get some cash for me, I all of sudden became sentimental about the orange, sleeveless, cotton dress, that I wore in many occasions, including once having lunch with ET in a park…
I wanted to take it back really badly, but worried that LEG would “laugh at” at my indecision, and I knew I would not wear it again (it makes me look rounder/fat). But I stood there staring at that dress in the basket — it felt like I was selling my childhood broken doll or safety blanket!
Meanwhile, I got more time to check out on LEG with the clearer eyes: he had a bright orange loose sweater on with a very pink fluffy brim around the low cut collar. He was wearing a pair of delicate, golden brimmed glasses (near-sighted) that covered his long eyelashes. 😞 He still looked so deliciously girlish like a chilled cheery from icebox! 😋 But his skinny legs looked even skinner this time in his skinny jeans — there was no muscles in the butt or thighs whatsoever! 😏
On the way home, I was thinking why the longer something is used, the more values it grows? And why values of a marriage/long-term relationship seem to be reduced once it settles down or is secured? and even get more devalued over time❓In any situations, we human beings are more valuable/important than our belongings, right?
Why Some people tend to gaze at a faraway Star (LO), instead of focusing on the Sun (SO) and Moons (children) under their nose? Why one tends to desire “there”, and when they get “there”, it soon becomes “here” again; Then more “there” somewhere else to get to…. Is this our biology or psychology?
I understand DrL’s video about habituation and could not help wonder: is habitualizing process our human nature or culture❓ Some grownups still keep their broken dolls in the attic, or put their memories in their journals or published books….
To Miss Snow:
I can so identify with your sentimentality over clothing.
Except with me, it was my children’s outgrown items which I sold to a second-hand store.
I would get very emotional about their stuff.
I saved a few of my favorite pieces, and I avoid looking at them, for fear I will break down sobbing.
Miss Norma,
I don’t get sentimental with my personal stuff that is 10 or 15 years younger or only have practical functions. The longer they were with me, the harder for me to get rid of them. They become the “museum” pieces of my life.
I can certainly understand your tears over your favorite pieces of your children’s clothes. For stuff (clothes, books) that could bring me some memories of “pains”, I sell or donate them.
Out of sight, out of mind — NC with our old belongings!
To Miss Snow:
That is very practical, and I have tried to do that with some things.
I also had a hard time parting with items that belonged to my parents. I kept a few things. It was hard to get rid of some items, but I do feel better once I got over the pain of losing them.
I think I can monologue a little bit in the coffee house… ☕️
Confession: my curious eyes unintentionally ran into my own posts of August 2023, and was taken by surprises — couldn’t believe I said what I had said 😳!
A couple of thoughts emerged:
1. With only reading of one thread, I did’t get that cringe sensation as I had expected (didn’t dare to read any of my old posts until this morning). I feel glad that my core values haven’t changed that much. However, during my xLE, I downplayed them, underestimated them, and felt so unassured about them; I wanted LO’s validation of them. That (original) insecurity buried underneath my lifetime Longing blocked my LE eyes from seeing even my own essence….
My point: during LE, we limerents often subconsciously feel unnecessary insecure and didn’t self-respect our own solid values. We want so much or insatiable validation from our LO (God knows amount of insecurities in them!) — their approvals of us in whatever aspects, that we lose our insight to who we truly were/are. It’s unfortunate/sad to me 😞
Since my xLE, even in visceral level, is totally gone, I may sound harshly logical, but please bear with my one-penny thought here: limerents here (general) SOUND quite insecure/fearful, while you have much more deep within (buried under your visceral LE), which could bring you much self-confidence or make you more proud of yourself, regardless of what LO or rest of the world would think! I just wish you could turn your eyes inward to truly see your own valuable essence.
2. During my xLE, I was so foggy headed and affected by LE that I was not only unable to see/value my own selves, but so ignorant of what was going on around me. I could not hear/see the rest of the world even in their rosy colors with sweet melodies… My moods, more than often irritated or melancholy, were “controlled” by the “perceived life” in my LE domain.
My point: while still in LE, one cannot trust one’s lightly or heavily LE-coated/lensed sentimentality, even if it’s lasted 2 or 3 decades long. I know it’s easy said than done; but perhaps one can let one’s logical mind to remind oneself so?
Wish you all more joyful holidays!
Clip of the Day:
https://youtu.be/dYZp7dZ0cdw?si=4lyYjKqPfMQT1Xmn – Kung Fu
👩🦰 🏃,
An excellent Kong Fu clip! Thanks.
It’s so true that there are certain truths that cannot be expressed through limited language (doesn’t matter what language) and our imperfect understanding that was, is, and will be “undulated”(affected) by our personal, limited experiences and new learnings.
Using 5-blind men touching elephant fable, each of our touch could sense one part of the elephant, not the whole. But if communicating with other 4 blind men, we could learn and understand (indirectly) their truths, on an intellectual level, not visceral one.
We limerents perceive the 🎀 elephant — LE, from all angles, thus we experience this 🐘 differently. Yet the journey of self discovery, recovery, and renewal, out of the 🐘 spell, is universal. Honesty with oneself, particularly root(s) of one’s fear/insecurity, is MUST 💪 . Stoics go further in attempts to remove the root(s).
******
Another word/conception also popped into my mind this morning — Intuition.
Jung says that “Intuition is perception via the unconscious.” And “Intuition does not denote something contrary to reason, but something outside of the province of reason.”
To me, the Unconscious contain’s one’s entire history from birth, whatever was experienced from the past, repressed in the past, and sensed/thought in the present. While in LE, our perception is “contaminated” by LE lens, with no or little logic but often delusional/illusive perceptions. (I hear someone would argue that LE is outside of the province of reason)
I wonder whether one’s intuition during and after LE would be the same towards the same matter. Can one trust one’s strong “intuition” during LE?
I don’t have clear answers to this question, which only lodged in my head this morning (after reading a bit of my own posts). I know in the past whenever I ignored my strong intuitions, 99% of which I made mistakes, small or big regrettable ones…. Can I trust my post-LE intuition more?
To Miss Snow:
I hesitate to reply, since I know you can run rings around me.
Please keep in mind that I am of only average intelligence, and have some brain damage that prevents me from processing things accurately at times.
Having said that–I don’t think that being in LE and having good intuition are mutually exclusive.
I do think you can trust your post-LE intuition more. But it has not been my experience that being in LE makes a person unable to reason properly.
You know enough of my story to know that I struggle daily with my longing to reach out to LO and am constantly battling the urge to contact him.
Just this morning, I was leaving the supermarket, and a car came out of nowhere, right at me. I was able to jump back in time, but the car hit my shopping cart and sent it flying.
I was shaken up, but obviously physically unhurt. I wanted to contact LO, and I wanted him to comfort me. But I know he is incapable of comforting me, or perhaps just unwilling.
Regardless, it’s a fool’s errand. Even though I am in the throes of LE, I know this. My LE does not cloud my judgment.
So instead I contacted a girlfriend who actually HAS been hit by a car (thankfully not severely), and she gave me the kindly support I needed in that moment.
Miss 🏠 Norma,
“I hesitate to reply, since I know you can run rings around me.”
As long as you do NOT talk about your LO or anything related to him, I’m fine.
“Having said that–I don’t think that being in LE and having good intuition are mutually exclusive.”
I disagree! Totally out of my xLE, I can compare for myself. You cannot yet, as long as you’re still in the throe or even at edge of your LE.
“I do think you can trust your post-LE intuition more. “
Definitely agree❗️ During LE, one’s intuitions were/are repressed down to the Unconscious by that dominantly LE mentality. I only learned about this after I came out of LE; With my current peace and sustained joys, intuitions are resurfacing, luckily.
“But it has not been my experience that being in LE makes a person unable to reason properly.”
I’m sorry to say that when one is in the middle of a thick fog, a limerent is the last person to “reason” properly. By DrL’s definition, LE is an alter state of mind, and every reasoning or decision made in it is questionable.
“You know enough of my story to know that I struggle daily with my longing to reach out to LO and am constantly battling the urge to contact him.”
Many limerents here are doing LC or NC, but I haven’t seen you try it enough with Dr L’s methods, particularly considering you two are not co-workers.
“Just this morning, I was leaving the supermarket, and a car came out of nowhere, right at me. I was able to jump back in time, but the car hit my shopping cart and sent it flying.”
Sorry for your incident. Your attention and focus have been diluted by your LE and your willpower weakened. if you don’t make more efforts to recover your mind, more incidents could occur.
“I was shaken up, but obviously physically unhurt. I wanted to contact LO, and I wanted him to comfort me. But I know he is incapable of comforting me, or perhaps just unwilling.”
I do NOT want to comment anything related to your LO, PERIOD❗️
“Regardless, it’s a fool’s errand. Even though I am in the throes of LE, I know this. My LE does not cloud my judgment.”
I disagree. Clouded judgment affects not just you alone, but most of limerents here, no matter which LE stage they are in.
“So instead I contacted a girlfriend who actually HAS been hit by a car (thankfully not severely), and she gave me the kindly support I needed in that moment.”
That’s very wise to reach your girlfriend, cherish her and your friendship every single day!
Do take a good care of yourself and Happy Holidays!
Hi Norma,
sorry you had that scaring incident. I had two incidents with cars in the past (on the bike), in both the drivers were at fault (suddenly shooting into my priority lane, or opening the car door just when I passed), and although nothing happened apart from falling from the bike , they shook me quite a bit.
I hope the driver apologized to you!
To Mila:
Thank you for your concern. Yes, she apologized, and a bystander also stopped to help.
I didn’t really need any help, but I was grateful for the kindness.
Well, well! If I don’t monologue a bit of my reality, you might be thinking I was floating in the high cloud play chess or something… 😀 Truthfully, I did want to observe how a LE recovered mind works, at least my mind, and how the LwL knowledge and Stoicism could work with a renewed mind….
a LE related matter —
Yesterday I finally “pushed” that Lim pet away. After succeeding in “ignoring” him entirely last week, he agreed to officially withdraw before the deadline. All official steps (an alert was sent campus wide) was taken. The kid promised he’d make up all missed assignment, but none was handed in since the day one of this semester. Meanwhile, he’s a TA for another subject for. He just sat there, with dreamy eyes or slimy smiles or lingered staring, trying to catch my attention, which has to be attentive, enthusiastic, and encouraging, which might have served as “crumbs”.
📣 Who wants to be a LO? I’ll trade my identity with you! I was so repelled, annoyed, relieved, and now sorry for him *sigh* 😮💨. Only through LwL, I understand his mind and feel sympathetic. By the rule, I could neither be stern to him, nor directly talk with him about the matter in any fashion, which has probably made his LE linger or worse (over 14 months now)— the Downfall of non-communication between LO and his/her limerent!
He’s wasted his time and some tuition for the 2nd time. However, I do believe and hope he can recover soon; my TA told me he’s sociable and he lives with his girlfriend and daughter (showed the picture to the whole class).
a Non-LE matter —
Yesterday another scary incident: due to schedule conflict I could not take Mom to her PT for the 2nd time. For the first time, I showed her in person how to get there and return home — 4 short blocks from a small subway station (with one line, single direction only) to the office without any turns, she assured me that she could read street numbers and remember it.
I mentioned that all her life she’s “paranoid” or highly anxious despite she was a surgeon herself; she simply relied on Dad or me for ALL logistical matters. The night before yesterday, she unusually woke up at 2am and never went back to sleep worrying she’d get lost going to PT office on her own. Highly anxious, she got off one station earlier and just walked, walked despite the environment was totally new/strange to her. She got lost about 2km away on the same street.
There is an idiom in COO: bad lucks never walk alone, which never failed to be proven true — her text system was not working when it’s absolutely needed! She didn’t call me worrying to disturb my teaching. After learning her “missing” from PT office (they called me), I called her but her panicked mind could not hear 244 clearly and “insisted” it was “214”. She said she could not move any further due to her physical exhaustion. Unable to speak English, she could neither call a cab nor ask people in the street to direct her.
By then, I realized that my GPS also wasn’t working to locate her so my favorite PT office receptionist, (her first name is Princess), could not pick up Mom— Stuff in this PT office are always extraordinarily nice and helpful! I was about 10-15 km away with my hair standing up (no hair standing emoji yet 🙄), a few minutes before I entered my classroom!
By a miracle, she did wander/lost back to a major subway station with multiple lines. I instructed her over the phone and left the matter to God’s hand — she could find the right direction to get home. She DID! When I saw her later, she did admit that her paranoid and panic actually made her to forget all the directions. I got a “heart attack” afterwards!
Guess what can clam a highly agitated mind or save one from a post “heart attack?” — reading Poetry! Words, words, words, fancy words run with elusive meanings and no concrete actions, which made Wittgenstein to pull his hair out and Shakespeare to lament — Ah, a poet, “half a man, half a mad”….
The morning news is over… I got to practice my ESL a little bit 🥴 Thanks for listening. 😀
Just want to reveal one LO’s mentality here —
If asked whether I felt flattered or my ego boosted by this unwanted LE affection (by a handsome Kid-dad), my answer is 🆎 NO! Not a bit! I was so annoyed most of the time.
Speaking only for myself, in a romance matter, one couldn’t care less about what others think of you, unless s/he is your BP — beloved person. I don’t think this piece of mindset would ever disappear in me until my death bed.
Moreover, if you’re a true Stoic, who cares about others’ criticism or praises (only BP excluded)⁉️ Then those (covert insecure) people-pleasers’ compliments/affirmation become annoying, too, and “comic”. Why do they think everyone else, who are vastly different from them inside out, needs or wants their superficial, patronizing praises⁉️
Well, continuous learning about humanity in all its colors, cultivating self-confidence and Stoic traits, in my opinion, is a major KEY to promote our mental health and attractiveness — in both men and women.
Typo:
“Moreover, if you’re a true Stoic, you would not care about others’ either criticism or praises (only BP excluded)⁉️ “
“Not care” here means one does not desire/crave for others’ praises and validations, but appreciate them if given.
For other’s criticism or invalidation, one does listen to them for their possible merits; if true, one corrects mistakes and makes effort to correct and improve. If untrue, just smile and move on.
Snow, what if you are single and don’t know who your BP is yet? Not my situation but just asking.
Sapiens,
I may not know who my BP is, and I am positive who is NOT.
Glimmer of a high degree doesn’t guarantee a BP,; if it’s one-way street, one needs to pull oneself out; otherwise, s/he slips into limerent.
“Beloved” and “belimrented” are different.
Sapiens,
“what if you are single and don’t know who your BP is yet”
I think I misunderstood your meaning when I rushed an answer one minute before beginning a class last night. You were asking whether one would be Stoic (not “caring about” others’ criticism or praises) when BP is not insight, right?
My answer would be the same, and it’s easier to be since everyone else is in the same bracket. The big challenge lies on what one would do/be when deal with one’s BP. Based on my reading, it seems that only two Stoic could be BP to each other and possibly make their relationship work, and that if one of them is not or much less, then there would be not even a possibility.
If a limerent could be just a quarter of Stoic, s/he would not even fall into limerence (crush, yes). For a limerent to become just a half Stoic, s/he needs to climb to the Mountain Everest, which is not impossible.
Being Stoic and stoic are not the same. One could be wise, loving, and humorous Stoic; my model is still Marcus Aurelius (not very humorous like my Dad, but Dad liked showing off without craving/desiring admiration/validation…). Yet, Aurelius was supposedly the loneliest person in the whole world despite he was an Emperor, because no one else could TRULY understand him (he had a virtuous wife) and be his friend.
My biggest “downfall” was impatience — unStoic, which brought me a lot of misunderstands (thus erroneous reactions) in ESL, situations, and people, possibly for days if not for months or years. I so need to cultivate the virtue of all cultures — patience.
Just found a serious typo:
“which has to be professionally attentive, enthusiastic, and encouraging to alls students present in my classrooms, which might have unintentionally served as “crumbs”. “
Hi Speedwagon, I hope you’re doing well.
I was thinking about your LE and wondering if some elements have changed. I hope you don’t mind my questions. Please only answer what you feel comfortable sharing and if you want to say something like, “That’s none of your business, Lovisa.” I would understand.
Are you still experiencing distress when exposed to your LO? Do you still feel jealous of her SO? The last time we spoke, I had the impression that you feel resentment towards your LO because of the way her presence disrupts your emotions. Would you say that you feel resentment toward your LO?
I’m just curious.
Hi Lovisa, thank-you for thinking and wondering about me. I only check in here every couple weeks now so I am glad I happened to see your message. I hope you are doing well?
My LE has been up and down these past 6 months. Back in the spring my LE was as quiet as it had ever been. I felt pretty good, less rumination and overall desire for LO but then like a limerent idiot I am that caused me to let my guard down and I started engaging her more and more. This led to a flair up over the summer where I really hit some low points again. I have since come out of that through some very strict LC and am back in a quieter phase now. And this time I am not going to make the mistake of engaging with her personally.
As of the moment LO and I have what feels like an estranged relationship. I pretty much avoid her and she avoids me other than what is needed for professional purposes. It does feel a bit awkward to me because it is not my natural personality to be purposefully distant from someone, especially someone I coexist with a good chunk of time. But that is how it is and how it needs to be to stabilize my emotions.
There are a lot of people here who talk about maintaining friendships with their LO because their LO are good people and they enjoy their company. That is not me. My LO is a good person but she is poison to me. If I enjoy her company that just escalates my romantic desire for her. I don’t want to be in that cycle of escalating feelings and constant disappointment and let down. I don’t function well that way. As her manager my only obligation is to provide a good professional setting for her, nothing more, and I stick to that.
Ultimately, I would love to see LO exit my life, but I just don’t think that is going to happen. For a while I had a lot of anger and resentment towards her, but those emotions are debilitating too so I have learned to release that anger.
For now things are OK and I am managing well enough and life outside of LO with SO and my family are really good.
Thanks for the update, Speedwagon! Your situation is rough. I wondered if time healed your LE, but it sounds like your LE goes dormant enough that you let your guard down and then the LE flares up again. I wonder if you are incapable of ever having a normal relationship with your LO. Maybe none of us really can.
I’m not triggered by my LO2, but I suspect that he is triggered by me. We have brief conversations every few months. It feels like he is holding back. It doesn’t bother me. I’m just grateful that we got through this weird chapter without losing the ability to interact with each other. The friend group that we share is important to both of us and I wouldn’t want to avoid the whole group just because I might run into LO2.
About a month and a half ago, my LO3 went NC. He told me that he caught himself focusing more on me than his wife and he thinks it’s best not to have contact with me while he strengthens his marriage. I miss talking to him, but I’m glad that he is working on his marriage. I didn’t even know they were struggling.
Things are going great with my SO! We ran a 50-mile ultramarathon together. It was wonderful! I was nervous going in because at my last 50-miler my motivation to move forward was that each step brought me closer to my SO who was waiting at the finish line. This time I couldn’t use him to motivate myself because he would be with me. It was fine. This time wasn’t nearly as hard as last time. I didn’t need extra motivation, finishing was enough. I loved sharing this experience with my SO.
I’m still trying to figure out male/female friendships. I think they’re good and important, but if one person gets relationship ideas then it gets weird. I have to be careful. Now that I know about limerence, I never want to trigger those feelings in anyone.
Have a great week!
Lovisa,
“About a month and a half ago, my LO3 went NC. He told me that he caught himself focusing more on me than his wife and he thinks it’s best not to have contact with me while he strengthens his marriage. ”
I really like the way he handled this.
“I’m still trying to figure out male/female friendships.”
Befriend guys you’re not attracted to. Seriously. (You can’t control how the other party feels, of course. )
“Befriend guys you’re not attracted to. Seriously. (You can’t control how the other party feels, of course. )”
You can’t but it can still be misleading. Especially if they’re slow and stubborn like me and love wafting in the fantasy.
MJ,
“You can’t but it can still be misleading. Especially if they’re slow and stubborn like me and love wafting in the fantasy.”
If you’re in fantasy land, it’s because you put yourself there. Or you’re letting yourself stay there.
I told you about my male friend. He told me how he felt (just a few weeks into the friendship, although earlier would have been better), I told I didn’t feel the same way … and after a few weeks of awkwardness, we’re friends again. Direct communication. Works best.
He won’t post on here wondering how I’m feeling … because he actually asked. 🙂
Marcia
I get that and its true I stay in this place because the idea of things keeps me hopeful. Like you, LF basically told me she didnt feel the same way either. Things got awkward between us for a few weeks and then they got better. Like dramatically way better. In a way it was always very deceiving because we seemed to get each others playful ways and jokes. Not even always being inappropriate either. Except maybe I was hoping she might be in for something more because I knew what was going on with her and the married guy. Maybe I just wanted in on some of the action too. After all, they were just fwbs, right? Like maybe I just had to say or do the right things and then maybe I could be in on the fun.
This is some of the drawback I now have with NewGirl. Things are good between us. We’re txting a lot more. I’m also pretty sure we’re going to go out soon, but its a different kind of excitement overall. I don’t even know if excitement is a word I’d use to describe it. Its just nice.. And nice in a way where nothing is being forced or manipulated. I’m not going ape-s#!+ nuts to have to be around or see her. I really have no agenda, other than to let the chips fall wherever they may with this one.
I think both of us like each other but are in no hurry to get to each other. If that makes any sense.
MJ,
” Like you, LF basically told me she didn’t feel the same way either. ”
She didn’t “basically” tell you. She did tell you. Way back, months ago, when she gave you a vague, non-committal answer to hanging out. If a woman is interested, she wants to spend time with you. Like today. Or tomorrow. She’s excited to see you.
If have written this before, and … um … you’re not hearing me. So I’ll say it again. 🙂 If you are interested in a woman in a romantic/sexual way, ask her out right away. The day you meet her. Or a couple of days later. If you have sexual feelings for her, OWN them. I’m not saying you have to try to get her into bed immediately. You can take your time getting to know her. You can tell her once you get on the first date you want to take your time and get to know her. I think that would be a nice thing to hear, actually. But make it clear you want to date her. You don’t want to be “just friends.” (And this is my pet peeve with guys who use your slow approach. It’s a bait and switch. You DON’T want to be just friends. At no time is friendship your only agenda.) And if, after asking her out, she doesn’t say a clear and unequivocal yes and show up on that date in a reasonable frame (I’d say within a week or two, tops — meaning she’s not canceling a bunch of times and taking several weeks to show up on the date) … it’s a no.
And then if you get a no, you can determine if you want to hang around for friendship. Maybe you even discuss it. Can we still be friends? I had that actual conversation with my male friend. He disclosed feelings, I said I don’t feel the same, and we discussed if we could still be friends. (Do you know how nice it is to be able to directly communicate with someone? Not that it was an easy conversation. It wasn’t. It was very awkward. But I’m glad we had it.) And now we’re texting and occasionally meeting up. It’s not quite what it was before his disclosure in terms of amount of communication, but I didn’t really expect it to be. And I’m glad we’re still friends as I value him as friend. But “friends” to me, at least, does not mean an FWB. Friends means … I’m not attracted to you. An FWB would never happen with my male friends. That’s why they’re friends.
“Things got awkward between us for a few weeks and then they got better. Like dramatically way better. In a way it was always very deceiving because we seemed to get each others playful ways and jokes.”
So .. you friendzoned yourself. You hung around after you first started talking, and when you finally asked her to do something, you didn’t accept her non-committal answer as a no. And then you still hung around, hoping things would change. Then you told her something personal … I’m assuming you thought that would move the needle (I’m onto you :)) … and the opposite happened. This time you got a very clear no. And she imploded the friendship.
And you pulled away, but you’re still hoping something will happen. I don’t think it’s going to. Don’t hang around someone who’s let you know it’s just a friendship if you can’t accept it’s just a friendship. I don’t know if I could do it. If I was really into someone.
“This is some of the drawback I now have with NewGirl. Things are good between us. We’re texting a lot more. I’m also pretty sure we’re going to go out soon, but its a different kind of excitement overall. I don’t even know if excitement is a word I’d use to describe it. Its just nice.. And nice in a way where nothing is being forced or manipulated. I’m not going ape-s#!+ nuts to have to be around or see her. I really have no agenda, other than to let the chips fall wherever they may with this one.”
You’re doing the same thing with this one.
Now, she actually said yes to meeting up, which is good, but you’re taking way too long to get up on the horse and go on that date. You’re not signaling you’re that interested.
Marcia
Its really not a matter of not being interested. The problem is she has 2 kids that seem to take priority.
(Like why wouldn’t they?)
I’m kinda on the fence about it but its not a deal breaker. Originally I thought she had just the one Son, but now I hear theres a Daughter too. I prefer if she not had them but her Ex kinda seems like a douche, so I don’t even know how often she has them or what custody issues are like for her. I don’t really talk to her about them much. I respect her for going the single Mom route, but I really am kind of turned off with the whole instant family thing, should things increase between us.
I also have my Father that requires extreme care to work around. I have to have caretaking arrangements made if I’m planning weekend events and lately, I’ve also been working some weekends too, so time constraints are an issue for me. That doesn’t mean I haven’t forgotten or trying to signal disinterest to her. I have two households to manage and take care of. As of late, I’m not ready to have her over to my place just yet in case things should go that route. Its been hard to make time for anything when so much of my time is spent at Dads. My home is hardly in bad condition, but its not ready for a Lady to come visit either. (No I don’t have to dismantle my LO altar either 😆)
You never get a second chance to make a first impression and I at least want that in my favor if something goes down and she wants to come over.
MJ,
“I really am kind of turned off with the whole instant family thing, should things increase between us.”
Um … don’t you have children, too?
“My home is hardly in bad condition, but its not ready for a Lady to come visit either. ”
Why does she have to come over your house? It’s just dinner, right?
It just sounds like a bunch of excuses and that you’re not interested in dating right now. (Thus, you never spoke to your LO.) That’s ok. I’m not pressing you to date if you don’t want to. It’s up to you.
I read this somewhere and I think it’s very true: Female desire is attuned to male desire. If you asked me to dinner and weeks had gone by and all you’d done was text … you get where I’m going with this.
“It just sounds like a bunch of excuses and that you’re not interested in dating right now. (Thus, you never spoke to your LO.) That’s ok. I’m not pressing you to date if you don’t want to. It’s up to you.”
Marcia
From the get-go this person flat out told me to be in no hurry to take her out. I never asked why or wtf? I accepted it full well knowing the challenges I have to work around. This is the cross I bear and I’m really not trying to blow her off. I do kinda like her.
At some point I will post about a date and surprise you. Guess I’m just hesitant because of the unexpected. I’m not opposed to things going well. I really think they will.
Yes I do have kids and its that whole idea of things actually working out and families meeting and just all that long term stuff I think about, can feel overwhelming at times. Like both LO and LF not having kids was a huge draw. Still is, so that whole will I or won’t I blend in well with their kids gets avoided.
Its just where I’m at. Yes it is an excuse. A poor one at best but its where I am.
Thank you for taking time to always get back to me. I know we like to have our fun jabbing each other often but you do give me a lot to think about. I make mental notes and I do appreciate it. Please do not ever think I don’t.
MJ,
I’m going to come down with the Dame on this one.
It feels way too early to worry about merging your families, when what you need to do for now is grab that coffee you always want, or the discussed pizza, and see how the two of you click in that setting. Try not to let maybes in the future get above opportunities now.
Because by doing that, you could end up never reaching those future points. I had a friend who used to cut off first dates because she couldn’t sit there at that initial point and imagine the guy as father of her children. She was getting ahead of herself.
What you don’t want (if you are interested in dating her), is NG friendzoning you. Like Marcia says there is a limited time window before friendzoning occurs. The way you talk about NG now reminds me of how you talked nearer the start about LF. I know that didn’t work out how you hoped by playing the slow game, so why not take the plunge this time?
Just my views, and expressed because I really want you to have a better outcome this time, not to criticise.
MJ,
I want to chip in here (if that’s an expression,sorry if not)- remember how you said you would love to have a coffee with someone? So quit thinking about merging families or whatever, don’t overthink , just ask her out for a coffee and a walk, enjoy the time and that’s that! Everything else is thinking way too much ahead.
Come on, just do it, it’s not a big thing really- just ask a nice person if she would fancy a coffee tomorrow. Everything else is stuff of the far future.
Wouldn’t it be nice just to have an hour of relaxed chat and a coffee with someone you get along with? It’s nothing more.
MJ,
“From the get-go this person flat out told me to be in no hurry to take her out. I never asked why or wtf?”
I would not have asked why. That would have been awkward, and she doesn’t really owe you an explanation.
“I do kinda like her.”
You kinda like? She said to be in no rush? What here is drawing you in?
“At some point I will post about a date and surprise you. Guess I’m just hesitant because of the unexpected.”
What would be unexpected?
“Yes I do have kids and its that whole idea of things actually working out and families meeting and just all that long term stuff I think about”
No, I meant that if you have kids, you can’t hold it against someone else who does, too. But it’s too early to worry about the merging of families.
“Thank you for taking time to always get back to me. I know we like to have our fun jabbing each other often but you do give me a lot to think about. I make mental notes and I do appreciate it. Please do not ever think I don’t.”
I appreciate that. You know I like to razz you but I do hope you find someone nice to go out with.
I don’t know what kind of stuff you’re texting each other. Anything juicy? Spicy? Sexy? Very personal about your lives? Or is it basic conversation ?
If you want to get your feet wet in terms of dating again and have a coffee date with someone, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking her out. But I would keep my expectations low for this. And in terms of future babes 🙂 … don’t you want to date someone who’s a little more excited about you? I want that for you.
LaR, Mila, Marcia,
Thank you all for your responses. You are wise to suggest I take more critical action here. Seeing somebody actually sitting across from me, actually drinking coffee would be like a dream come true. I have wanted that for quite awhile. I think some of this apprehension is me trying to wrap my brain around something possibly happening here. Because in a way, this is what feels like normal relationship blossoming. I’m so used to being in some limerent, hyper-fazed, gotta have her like yesterday mentality. I mean with LO, I would have stopped traffic and with LF, I would have jumped over the moon. Its like those 2 were must-haves and this new person comes along and just shows up without any bells or whistles. Making me question, is something real about to finally jump off? Isn’t healthy relationship just that? Relating to a person and not being so over the top for them? I feel like this is where I am.
I know I keep coming back to this, but the situation with my Father is really quite ugly at times and its one that I don’t really like bringing others in on. Because it can feel and actually be so very overwhelming at times. I know it isn’t mandatory I bring this Woman in on that situation in the next 60 seconds. Its just a part of me that has to be dealt with, and it comes with a responsibility to own it. I’m not wild about always having to tell this person, I’m probably not going to be as available as I would to be, because that situation is so up and down.
These are the kinds of things I miss about having a Wife. Because I know exactly how she would be today in helping me deal with these things. Sometimes thats just a very hard pill for me to swallow, having to basically do a lot of this by myself. I remember and know exactly how she would be today, if she were still actually my Wife. I get that I shouldn’t keep pissing and moaning about that, but its more regret for being a buffoon of a Husband.
MJ
“I think some of this apprehension is me trying to wrap my brain around something possibly happening here.”
That feels like a good realisation to come to with yourself.
“I know it isn’t mandatory I bring this Woman in on that situation in the next 60 seconds. Its just a part of me that has to be dealt with”
I pick up from your posts how much time and headspace the care situation with your Dad takes up. If there is a way it doesn’t have to block your dating prospects totally though, try to find it. And you are right that nobody you date has to be brought in on it any hurry. Nearly everyone in midlife has ‘stuff’ going on. Anyone worth their salt will know to expect it with people that enter their lives.
Speedwagon,
Good to hear your update though not all the circumstances – your LE is surely a candidate for the “most stubborn to shift” Limmy award. I’m glad to hear you are back in calmer waters now. Blips are a usual part of the process but you sound like you know what to do to stay on track most of the time.
“I don’t want to be in that cycle of escalating feelings and constant disappointment and let down.”
Even the group of us on here you mentioned who do want to hold on to some sort of friendship with (x)LOs are highly vulnerable to that cycle. I’ve talked at length to others in the “want to be friends” group and not one person has found it easy or got to the other side with both of these conditions met: 1. truly out of limerence, 2. with the friendship quite as they hoped it would be. I’m concluding it is nearly impossible. Even Lovisa (👋), who I thought was the LwL dead cert for managing it, has just surprised me in her reply to you about her LO3 going NC.
Maybe it is easier with the position you have, that this kind of ‘friendship’ just can’t happen!
Good to hear from you again Speed. Doesn’t sound like its all roses there and it probably isn’t supposed to be. Glad you’re doing well otherwise.
I feel your situation is very comparable to my situation with my LF from work. Also a very estranged situation. Our communication has primarily been about work, but has drifted off into topics other than work a few times, but it always feels awkward and very guarded on her part. Like you, I would typically enjoy being more open, easy-going and fun around her because thats how it once was between us. To even attempt to kid around or joke with her now feels like a gamble. Since she flat out told me NOT to get too friendly, staying in my lane is all I can do. What’s irritating is I still catch her staring at me and this seems to still be a thing between us that never gets talked about. Like her eyes are telling me something. Then I get angry at myself for going over to talk to her, thinking I might say something that could change her perspective of me again. When all that is, is just me in love with the fantasy and things never go like I hope they will. Because she remains so indifferent and even cold around me now. I guess I don’t ever call her on the eye contact because I feel like if I do, she’ll stop doing it and deep down I kinda don’t want her to stop.
Its maddening the way she makes me feel interiorly. I had some intense anger and resentment towards her after our fallout but it didn’t last long. Like you I have to co-exist with her at work and its simply a lot easier on my psyche if I keep her at bay.
Yes, I don’t think my LE will ever completely go away as long as I have to coexist with LO and interact with her. But I have learned how to quiet it down quite a bit and hope to maintain it at a quiet level. I am fairly convinced that if LO exited my life it would dissolve fairly quickly.
Not being friends, even just chit chatty work friends, is easy because she avoids me as much as I avoid her. She has never been much of a proactive person socially anyway, but I do think she is also proactively avoiding me because she knows I am proactively avoiding her. But even the times last spring where I was engaging with her she was very limited in her reciprocation back to me. It just never works out how I want it to so it is not worth pursuing. And I think she is OK with it all even seeing me act very friendly with other office people and not her. I don’t get the sense she is bothered by it. To be honest, we also really don’t have much in common either. And being her boss does give me the out to just be her boss and nothing more. Plus, I find being grey rock with helps me feel more in control of things which psychologically is important.
Lovisa, so happy you found something you and SO can bond over. Great work on the 50 mile runs. Sounds awful…lol. My SO and I are newly empty nesters and are also finding activities to share and enjoying spending time with one another sans kids.
LAR, every limerent has their own decision to make about friendship. For me it just doesn’t work but also my situation was easy. I was never friends with LO before the glimmer anyway. You have friendship history and that is tough. But ultimately I do believe that friendship is a constant LE IV drip so as long as one can manage.
MJ, yes work dynamics are so tricky. I really hope you find peace and enjoyment there in the midst of one LO and one difficult LF. I agree that you have to release the anger. It’s my least favorite emotion in all this. When I feel myself swirling in it I simply repeat to myself “release the anger” and it usually helps.
I’ll try to check in another 6 months from now to give an update.
Hi Speedwagon, I hope you get this. I was thinking about your LE again during my run today. I hope you don’t mind some follow up questions.
It sounds like warm, personal interactions with your LO are what triggers your LE. Do the warm, personal interactions feel good in the moment? Does the discomfort come afterwards, like during the let down. Would you describe the distress as “a frustrating realization that LO will never be your mate?”
Which type of personal interactions are more distressing: when she opens up about her personal life or when she listens to you open up about your personal life?
I recall that you are not impressed with your LO’s SO. Do you think the whole LE would have been different if your LO’s SO were an admiral man?
Something that fascinates me about your LE is that you are good at having warm male/female friendships. I am very curious why your friendship with your LO progressed to limerence.
I really hope I’m not overstepping my boundaries with all these questions.
Hello to everyone else who contributed to this conversation, and thank you so much! You guys have some interesting and helpful insights!
I’m putting a handle thingy on here in hopes that @Speedwagon sees it. I don’t actually know why people do this, but maybe it increases the likelihood that Speedy will see my message.
Best wishes everyone!
Lovisa,
“I don’t actually know why people do this, but maybe it increases the likelihood that Speedy will see my message.”
Yes, it does increase the likelihood that your aimed reader(s) would spot your messages faster.
Not every poster wants to read every post to the entire universe or to specific recipient(s) regarding specific issues. By putting a “handle”, one saves others’ precious time in deciding to read or skip personally (ir)relevant posts.
Thank you for putting a recipient name in your post address.
Hi Lovisa, about a week late but I did spot this message. Hopefully you will spot this one.
Good questions.
Any personal interaction with her always feels like connection with her. At the times we were more engaged with each other she can be very attentive to me. Lots of eye contact, lots of smiling and laughing, and lots of attentive listening like she is very interested in what I am saying. I would say I get a little more charged when she asks questions about me and seems interested in me. But she also rarely does. Conversationally she can be very self focused.
Even now still, sometimes she can be this way even over work conversation. There are these moments where she just seems so attentive to me.
Yes, I never respected her husband much. Even before I became limerent. And yes, I do believe that helped lead to my limerence. It played into a rescue fantasy story. When I first started to feel the glimmer, I told myself a story that she was searching for affection from me because her husband was not providing it. Also that she admired me as a business leader and employer and being successful and that must be attractive to her. It felt good to tell myself these things and it made me want to get closer to her. Of course I have come to understand how misguided this thinking is.
I don’t really know why her. It all just happened so suddenly and unexpectedly. I can’t describe it other than I just feel some connection to her that I just don’t with other women. Even women who are very attractive and I have a closer relationship with. With LO it just hits different. I am still closer friends with the other woman in the office but there is no romantic vibe with her. With LO, even in strict LC, it still feels like a lot of relational tension.
And yes, in the moment when I am engaged with LO it feels great. Euphoric at times. But then after I crash and feel the futility of it all because I do ultimately desire intimacy and affection with her and will not ever have it. At best I get very very very small crumbs every so often. I got to a point where pursuing her just felt destructive and pointless.
Thanks for answering my questions, Speedwagon. I appreciate your willingness to share. Thank you especially for talking about your rescue fantasy. I think we’ve talked about it before, but I forgot that the rescue fantasy was part of your LE.
Good to hear from you, Speedwagon and Lovisa!
It’s a tough situation for you, Speedwagon, but for me it sounds as if you handle it very maturely and admirably, and maybe it‘ll all cease to matter slowly in a few months/ years.
I think I only manage to be some sort of friends with XLOs when they left town and my immediate work environment.
Like Speedwagon, I have to work with my LO1, but contact is reduced to a minimum, more from my side than his, but since it was mutual and disclosed, it’s easy to be very LC because we both don’t want to risk anything anymore. Like with my last LO, I had been limerent for a person that doesn’t exist, and only after limerence I saw the real person (and that’s someone I don’t want to be friends with).
I think I blathered enough about current XLO and how I perceived him wrongly and now have difficulties to maintain warm contact.
Only LO2 seems to be the person and friend he‘s been all the time, but then it’s LC because of distance, and I’m sure there would be more problems if he would have stayed as my colleague.
So, LaR, you were my hope that someone manages to keep the warm special friendship he‘s had before. Would you say there‘s no hope anymore?
Lovisa, I‘m in awe at your athletic feats. Gosh.
Mila,
“So, LaR, you were my hope that someone manages to keep the warm special friendship he‘s had before. Would you say there‘s no hope anymore?”
No, I wouldn’t say that – there is still hope for friendships, but with some unknowns about the nature and strength of it. On the surface, we get along much as we ever did, just somewhat (mutually) cooled down, and it mostly doesn’t feel triggering to me now. We have exist as co-workers *a lot* of the time, so that probably helps – there is no skirting around it, and it really threatened my work productivity when I tried more avoidance. The level of exposure I have is quite rare among the several limerents who write on here and might have to see their LO once a month or so. It is most days. But that’s a different question from that of the long term friendship prospects, I guess.
Once we (plural) start to climb out of being limerent, we naturally reassess what we want the friendship to be, and what it can realistically be. We dial down expectations a bit. That’s not proving too bad for me, and it isn’t dialled down to no friendship expectations, just lowered ones. But – there is still the issue you and I have discussed before … that the parts of my life that LO is in, are totally separate from the parts SO is in. I became good at compartmentalisation (guilty), but that isn’t likely to hold for the long term now my exec brain has more control back. And it is still too soon in my recovery and recalibration to try and change that part.
I will keep you posted Mila. I appreciate you not giving up hope on it!
Hi LaR,
ok, so I gather that you are still a bit in the woods (if there’s „out of the woods“, there must be inside of the woods too, no?)since you cannot yet imagine mixing LO and SO world.
Maybe you don’t have to, maybe it’s easier to simmer everything down to mere friendship without the added stress of mixing your compartments, and once it‘s simmered down it ceases to matter if they mix?
The question might be if what made the friendship seem special and precious was simply this, that it was completely in a SOfree world and something only for you alone?
(I have no idea, just throwing it out there.)
Me, I had a longish phone call from XLO and now feel bad afterwards. I wasn’t prepared and my first reaction when I saw who was calling, trained by months of vilifying XLO, was aversion. It would have been better to call him back later with some resolve to be normal and nice, but my kids already said „look, … is calling“ so I had to answer.
I mentally criticized him during the whole call and he was showing his worst sides too (talking only about himself and his woes, not asking how I am etc, complaining about money (he‘s got enough)). In the end I got really annoyed (he was talking simultaneously to someone in the background and me at length) and ended the conversation on a curt note. Then I felt bad, because I did it again, I didn’t detach but judged him, instead of just leaving him be how he is. I can do that very well with other people, but not (yet or any more, that’s the question) with him.
I don’t like the person I become with him at the moment. I get judgy and a bit mean. I think he might show his worse sides too because he feels that I’m being like that- not sure about that though.
Basically it’s like it’s always been – if I don’t initiate good mood, if I’m not proactive and forthcoming, he won’t initiate anything either.
Same old, same old.
It’s just like I said to Imho, onyx, ABCD: I feel worst afterwards about my own behavior, not about LOs behavior.
I still haven’t managed to let go completely of this friendship or to completely cease to expect stuff he cannot give, or even to decide if I want this friendship at all if he cannot give this stuff.
Sometimes I think I managed to not care any more, but then I get these moments of regret after contact.
I will see him soonish in his area of the country- not sure how that will play out.
So that was my update on „keeping friendship after limerence“- doesn’t look too good…
Hi Mila,
I’m annoyed for you to hear that you’ve had another lap of the snailhouse, but maybe these laps are just necessary, as you are not firm yet on whether you want to let him go, or are able to accept him for what he is on some level of friendship, or again whether he can change the way he approaches it (though probably not the last one from what I gather). So my suggestion is that it is best not to rush the decision until you get more clarity either way. Frustrating as that may be.
“if what made the friendship seem special and precious was simply this, that it was completely in a SOfree world and something only for you alone?”
No short answer to that …
There’s a part of me that instinctively tries to deny it, another part that mostly accepts it, and the truth that probably lies between.
The big bit of evidence against – I knew LO and was already solid friends with her (though mostly just at work then) before I met SO. There is a more boundaried version of friendship that worked well between us then, and seems to be Ok again now.
Then there is the version of the ‘friendship’ during my limerence, which was too close and escalated and continued for reasons of escapism. It gets complicated there (in respect of your speculations) because it was not escapism from SO per se, but more escapism from pressures that the pair of us were under together. Some of that we self inflicted, more of it was that we weren’t dealing great with pressures that extended family members on both sides were putting us under (still are, but we are coping better with it now).
But yeah, there was a pure escapism component to the LE that I won’t even try to deny.
So mapping out new territory (based a bit on old templates) is taking some time. The fact I still want to work it out is because I had that long-time template for sensibly being friends with her before I was limerent, not because of the false amplified version it became during limerence.
Before limerence, I didn’t actively work to keep SO and LO apart (they met briefly on odd occasions both before and even during my LE). It is more that my circle of friends with SO are largely outside my work circle. I could change it if and when I was so minded. It needs more time though. And some posters on here have argued that maybe it is never realistic for (in general, not just me) xLO and SO to be socialised without an unhelpful ‘something in the air’ being present. That your SO and xLO can be socialised more ‘normally’ is possibly because you had the pre-LE experiences of doing that.
„So my suggestion is that it is best not to rush the decision until you get more clarity either way. Frustrating as that may be“
The funny thing is how I can see him sometimes like in the past, not care too much but be fond of him, and generally see him in a positive light, and then suddenly the dark glasses are on again. The thing discerning this from limerence is that I don’t think much of him/it, only when there was a call like now or if I read/write here. It doesn’t alter my day to day feelings/happiness at all and isn’t much in my thoughts.
Still, it’s not back to normal with him. I wondered if it would help like back in limerence, to fake it til I make it- envisage how I would behave if I would feel like I wish to feel (indifferent but fond)and go through these motions.
The thing is, I’m tired of putting even more energy into this relationship.
„The fact I still want to work it out is because I had that long-time template for sensibly being friends with her before I was limerent, not because of the false amplified version it became during limerence.“
Same here, that’s what’s similar with us but seems not possible for me somehow.
But I’ve got more hope for you since your friendship seems more flexible and mature than mine.
I know I nudged you in the direction of merging the worlds in the past because I thought maybe that’s what would resolve the „special“ feeling about LO, or lead to a very normal friendship, but now I take that back. It seems to go well as it is, and maybe best not to force anything.
For me it sounded as if you are already there, keeping your boundarized friendship? What is it that still feels like limerence to you?
Mila,
I’m sure you’ve tried to do this already, but can you unpick what’s different between the times when you feel more OK (even if not ideal) with the dynamic with him, and the times when the dark glasses go back on?
“What is it that still feels like limerence to you?”
It’s a great question, and it’s complicated. It made me think.
It is not like the tap can just be turned off in one hit. I have corrected my actions to manage it better, but not fully corrected the feelings that drove the actions being off in the first place.
She offers me a level of honesty, both ways round, that I have rarely had with anyone. It is OK to admit good days and bad days freely. There is an ability to say whatever is to be said exactly as it is (positive or negative) without that ever seeming to cause bad blood (we dont agree with each other about that much, and yet we have never fallen out), and that’s freeing.
Now, you (plural) could say that those are just good qualities to have in a friend, and I’d more than agree, but it is powerful and contributes to the ‘special’ feeling about her. I haven’t found many people like that in my whole life. Maybe that’s more to do with me than with her or other people. But, having that dynamic with someone is like nectar to me.
Sapiens recently said something about limerence as (I paraphrase) being in love with the version of yourself that you (believe you) want to give. I think that’s a hard thing to tear away from. Moving forward, it is about finding more ways to express that version of me that don’t involve her or another LO.
There are also some ‘rescue’ issues, in terms of me being a very trusted person to her. I don’t want to totally sever that for genuine friendship reasons, so I haven’t done. But we have heard enough on here about how that sort of thing can suck men in, and it is true in my case as well.
A bit like you, sometimes I can ignore all this and just push it far backwards, while at other points there is still a sense of being, as you put it, ‘in the woods’.
(And yeah, logically we should have that expression to go with ‘out of the woods’ … but I haven’t really heard it. People on here use ‘in the weeds’ more often.)
I don’t mean to sound positive or negative about it at the moment, just to say it is still work in progress to figure all this out. I always knew it would be.
Hi Mila and LaR,
I have been following your chat about remaining friends with LO.
Although my siutaion is a little different (we weren’t friends before limerence), I have been experiencing warm and cold feelings towards LO. For me, I think the warm feeling are when I am dealing with him in the abstract (his personality is generally nice warm and friendly, open, and that gives me something that’s a little unusual, I guess). However, each time I have to interact with him for work, I get dark feelings, because he is a nightmare to work with. The latest development is something, a new project at work, which I have volunteered for (at his suggestion) as part of a group of people, and accidentally now end up leading it due to others dropping out. The net result is more work for me and his usual downsides are on full display (always says work things will be easy and nothing to worry about when they very much are – especially if they are done properly, grrrrrr).
Bottom line, if I sometimes appear like its all rosy with my (x)LO, then it isn’t always rosy. Right now, I want to resign and never see him again.
Hi LaR,
„In the weeds“, really? You know I cannot discern English jokes easily 😅it sounds like one to me..
Thanks for the question, I have to think about what triggers the neutral positive without-glasses view, at the moment I can’t really say. They suddenly come. The negative view seems to be sort of a knee-jerk reaction now.
You gave me the reasons why you might be still limerent for her or what it is that makes your connection special (all valid and also valid for wanting to keep this person in your life). Nitpicker that I am, I dare to say that that’s not entirely what I was asking (although your answer was interesting), I was asking what it is about your own feelings/behavior that still feels limerent. Do you think too much of her at home , do you dissect conversations too much, do you get nervous elation when you see her, that kind of stuff…
But you don’t have to answer it, of course. I‘m just being obtuse.
I‘ll work a bit more now and then go to a party that I’ll leave quite soon because people will be in the weeds and that’s not really my thing .
Bewitched,
👋 nice to see you back in the coffeehouse. Is it because you know the welder hangs out here at this time of year?
That side of your xLO that is a disorganised worker and starts things then leans on you/others to complete them seems like a repeated exasperating experience for you (me too!) – you have mentioned it a few times since I’ve been here and it always chimes.
Mila,
Partying on a school night – is that the start of 🔥🍊🍷 season happening over there??
Here is some explanation of ‘in the weeds’ (go beyond the first meaning here):
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/deep+in+the+weeds
I didn’t quite understand your question right first time about ‘still limerent’. To the list of possibilities you gave me – I don’t engage in those behaviours (thinking of her, overthinking, elation etc) all the time – I can go long spells of not doing them. But there is still a very fine balancing point to keep the feelings neutral. Either too much or too little interaction and I slip back towards limerence-lite and do more of the bits you mentioned for a while. She has also been popping up in quite lucid dreams (after a spell of not). These are all sure fire signs that all is not resolved and ‘normal’ here – I’d rather be honest.
This said, it is so much lighter and intrusive than a year ago, so I see it like a bit by bit process thats been going for ages – 2 steps forward, 1.5 back, repeat 🐌🐌🐌🐌 – … but even a snail moves in the end, doesn’t it?
Deep breath and go again.
Mila is partying 🎇 🍹! enjoy.
Bewitched,
Nice to see you here. It is very clear that you are both intelligent and competent, so xLO and others at your work rely on you because you will never drop the ball.
You remind me of a close family member who I aspire to be more like. She is the most reliable person I know.
The next project you are asked to enrol on you maybe need to give it a straight ‘no’ unless you get a big bonus / promotion ! Ha ha.
LaR , Mila,
“in the weeds” is used a lot at my organisation, in reference to getting into too much detail. I personally really dislike the phrase and avoid it.
I like “out of the woods” phrase , which is more for referring to getting out of danger/ problematic situation.
“I can’t see the wood for the trees” is another nice phrase that I really like the meaning of.
Best wishes to us that are close-by but still need to find the snail shell exit and to those who have relatively recently emerged from it albeit slightly disoriented.
Hi LaR, Bewitched, Imho,
so good to hear from you lot! You really do feel a bit like old friends, or a sort of war comrades, even if we‘ve never met.
Ok, I drank some rosé wine which means, since I don’t touch much alcohol, I feel it after only one glass 😂
No, it’s not mulled wine season yet (but soon), it was a birthday. Most of the attendants there are young colleagues without family, so I was one of the first to leave,it will be interesting to see how they all cope at work tomorrow…
I really didn’t know „in the weeds“ thanks for the link LaR! But since Imho dislikes the expression I feel compelled not to use it either;)😘
Bewitched, would you say you are out of the woods, limerence-wise, annoyance at your LOs work ethics aside? One of the differences between our cases might be, your LO is warm but chaotic at work, mine cannot convey warmth but is a brilliant work colleague. I think since we don’t work together any more, I see much less of his best sides, which might be contributing to my negative view of him.
Would you say there‘s still some kind of fond limerent feeling involved in your exasperation about him?
LaR, I still think you are in for the Limmy award of „the only one who managed to keep a decent and warm friendship“. We‘ll see! But it all seems to take so much more time than anticipated , doesn’t it? My own friendship with XLO is still not saved or ended, and I feel it will still take some time, even years.
Hello all,
Thank you so much for replying to my little rant yesterday. I wrote it because I too genuinely wonder whether there is any way of going back to normal with an xLO. At the moment I think that the answer is ‘no’. I have not been overthinking anything with regard to LO, not fantastising, not idealising, not even looking forward to seeing him again in person. He is mostly not a factor in my day-to-day thoughts. So, in answer to your question, Mila, ” would you say you are out of the woods, limerence-wise, annoyance at your LO’s work ethics aside?” The answer is yes. But I do wonder whether, having got to this point, there is something broken in my thoughts with regard to him. I mean, its increasingly the negative feelings which are the strong ones. Because work is a large part of my life and he is especially chaotic at work, I did wonder whether my annoyance is really a hangover from limerence, or just a fact of life when working with an chaotic co-worker? But I do believe my annoyance has a bit more of an edge than it would for a regular co-worker (luckily, he never sees this as this is mostly online, and I don’t feel the need to tell him in order to improve our dynamic, either).
@Imho, you mentioned something being broken inside due to all the nervous energy expended in one of your final LO encounters, I can so relate to this as I think my thoughts are broken when it comes to him and I just would quite like not to have to deal with him anymore! Thank you for the shout-out, too, on my competence. That was nice to hear. Believe it or not, I also have a family member (sibling) like this, extremely competent and adept socially, who I look up to. I realise that one of my quirks is not showing my problems and weaknesses, which is the flip-side of that. I have told you lot on here about problems that I would never admit in real life. But maybe that’s a mistake (apart from limerence which is far too sensitive to tell many / any people about, sigh).
Hi Bewitched,
it sounds like we are at a similar stage, I can say yes to everything you wrote. Definitely out of the woods limerence-wise, but wondering if something is „broken“.
While you aren’t sure if you would be as annoyed at his work style if you hadn’t been limerent, I’m not sure if my XLO is really such a disappointing friend or if there’s the edge to it that you mention.
I can remember phases of our former non-limerent friendship where I was also quite annoyed at him and avoided him for a while, and maybe there would have been this phase of cooling-off even without limerence, once he left work and communication became a matter of texts and I wasn’t exposed to his best side (work) anymore?
„ I think my thoughts are broken when it comes to him and I just would quite like not to have to deal with him anymore!“
I can relate so much!
But do you also get moments of regret like me when I’m cold towards him, or if you picture him really completely gone from your life, or would that be totally ok for you not to have to deal with him anymore at all forever?
Maybe we cannot compare since you haven’t been friends, but it’s interesting for me nonetheless.
Hey Mila,
As you are I are in such a similar headspace I wanted to get back into this, maybe its interesting for some of the others too. In the past year, I had been feeling quite smug about my warm feeling towards (x)LO (“I have this sorted!”), so, I thought it was something important to share with you, LaR, and the others that I have increasingly experienced more dark feelings towards (x)LO post-limerence. Of course, we all go through the classic addiction cycle, where the highs of LO supply are increasingly replaced by the lows of withdrawal. I too went through all of that, but that was ages ago. Then, after that, I got to a place of peace, although even at that time I felt that the peace was a little ‘brittle’ and that (x)LO could really provoke the odd strong emotion. Nowadays I feel that I am in a new phase where the strong emotions I have post-limerence have been negative ones, annoyance with him that I actually ruminate a bit on. I am lying awake at night ruminating on how annoying he is (rather than euphoric highs – as it was in the much earlier days). I think the annoyance is actually correlated to how much work contact I have with him. Now that we are in a lot of work contact over this new project, its gotten larger…
Mila, I am glad to hear that you are getting out and enjoying (?) the work socials again. I myself am in quite a social mood too, lots of catching up with people at night (in Winter – shock horror – I can only do this sort of thing when I am feeling mentally quite good). I should say that annoyance with (x)LO takes up very little headspace, overall, and that I am really only telling you guys about it because I think you’ll find it an interesting comparison for our similar-ish situations.
Enjoy the weekend!!
Hi Bewitched,
yes, very similar. Although I’m now a bit past the „lying awake and fuming“ stage.
I‘ve had that for quite a while. Now I get riled and afterwards I’m disappointed at myself that I let myself get annoyed again. Yes, he lacks certain emotional and communication skills, yes, he‘s somewhat dull and inflexible and maybe also a bit egotistical. But I should stop getting annoyed at that. I‘m more mad at myself than at him that I cannot finally shed this negative energy.
I‘m still interested- if you could dodge him completely and stop working with him, meaning no contact at all any more, would that be ok for you or would there be some kind of regret, are there still also the find feelings for him or are they now gone?
Sorry to badger you like that, it’s just that it sounds so similar to my own state of mind!
I‘m actually socially and work-related very happy at the moment! Like you, XLO stuff doesn’t bother me in day-to-day life at all, even after that somewhat mishap phone call.
Face to face contact coming up soon- I’ve decided to not initiate any contact until I know exactly my travel times and then suggest coffee or something nice. Blank slate, determined not to be annoyed etc…
Is there any way to talk to your XLO and address his chaotic stuff? Maybe he could change something, who knows!
*“fond feelings“, not „find“😶
Dear Mila,
I wanted to answer your question (and you could never badger me!)
You asked “I‘m still interested- if you could dodge him completely and stop working with him, meaning no contact at all any more, would that be ok for you or would there be some kind of regret, are there still also the find feelings for him or are they now gone?
Sorry to badger you like that, it’s just that it sounds so similar to my own state of mind! ”
I think that there might be some regret if I cut contact permanently. But I think this is more because its not something I ever really do with anyone. I mean, I am happy for distance to develop with people in my life who I find difficult. That includes family members, a little more distance develops with the ones who really wind me up. With toxic friendships etc, those have come to a natural end (I am talking 30 years ago) rather than a big decision to never speak again. I think if I did something to bring everything to a definitive end I might regret it because of the good times. However, I would be fine with reducing contact with him and then seeing how things develop. He’s not done anything to me that would make me close the door forever. He is really just quite hard to work with (and I guess your LO is easy to work with but hard to be friends with, my LO is the opposite, as you said before).
Now I am probably going to be picking splinters out of my ass from sitting on this fence 😆
Hi Bewitched,
I see that I didn’t phrase it right. I didn’t mean if you would cut contact if you could, I meant how you would feel if contact would be over for some other, „natural“ reason, like you would by some change in your work system not be working together ever again or similar.
I asked because you said „Right now, I want to resign and never see him again“, and „I just would quite like not to have to deal with him anymore“
I just wanted to know if this was a fond teasing „go away, I hate you, cute-ass“ or if you would really not mind not seeing him again at all- a fond exasperation or a real dislike, that’s what I mean.
Me, I found after browsing through the internet and asking ChatGTP and the like, that I think I could manage this friendship to XLO much better if I would just assume he‘s on the autistic spectrum.
I‘m quite sure he is, but he‘s not diagnosed, and I‘m not an expert person to diagnose this.
But I realized that my resentment would be much less and I could accept his social behavior towards me much better if I would just assume that he‘s a bit autistic.
Maybe because then it would really hit home with me that he just cannot be any other way, that he does care about me but cannot show it in the way I would show it.
When I assume he’s neurotypical, I blame his behavior on insensitivity and egotism because then I would think he could behave more caring and sensitive and just chose not to be because he can’t be bothered and just wants to take and not to give.
It’s stupid really. Why can I not just accept that he‘s like the first interpretation without a diagnosis? I mean I do know that he‘s wired differently, he said so himself.
But I‘m still really not sure how to interpret his lack of real communication and emotion.
Dear Mila,
” I meant how you would feel if contact would be over for some other, „natural“ reason, like you would by some change in your work system not be working together ever again or similar. I asked because you said „Right now, I want to resign and never see him again“, and „I just would quite like not to have to deal with him anymore“
I just wanted to know if this was a fond teasing „go away, I hate you, cute-ass“ or if you would really not mind not seeing him again at all- a fond exasperation or a real dislike ”
I think if everything came to a natural end, I would be okay with it. I think that I would only occasionally experience feelings of mild regret, like “I wonder what (x)LO is doing and how he is?”. I would be curious to hear how everything is going with his youngest (who was a late surprise addition to the family), but I would also be balancing the sheet, somehow, and remembering ‘Gosh he was so chaotic, I’m glad I am not working with him and picking up his mess anymore”. It weird how much I no longer care to try to control or influence his feelings towards me in any way. He was very fond of me, I can tell, but I dont mind if I miss out on this fondness going forwards. Ironically, I will be working with him for the next couple of years on this project which, I mentioned above, (he talked me into it and others dropped out so I will be left with the weight of the work because (x)LO wont be able to do it due to his ADHD (armchair diagnosis of mine)).
“Me, I found after browsing through the internet and asking ChatGTP and the like, that I think I could manage this friendship to XLO much better if I would just assume he‘s on the autistic spectrum”
Yes, I think this really helps me too. I don’t blame (x)LO personally for this chaotic behaviour as I am, pretty sure he is neurodivergent and that he has daily challenges to overcome. It also seems to get worse, sometimes. Your (x)LO sounds neurodivergent and what you realise is that friendship from someone like that looks very different, it just does. He seems to like a ‘little and often’ dynamic with you, whereas what you crave is more deep and infrequent catch-ups (like with your #LO2, forgive me if I got the number wrong, but you know the one I mean?). Nevertheless, I still think that if the dynamic is aggravating to you, then its doing neither of you any good….it might take some time to decide whether its overall worth keeping him as a friend. I have constantly been astonished by my own changes in attitude towards (x)LO, like I said above. So, for me, its best not to rush in or out of anything!!
Hi Bewitched,
Thanks for the insightful post that I could relate to a lot (a lot to?)!
I think you are a bit ahead of me on this path.
I cannot say with certainty I wouldn’t suddenly get gripped by remorse or grief if XLO would vanish completely from my life, probably because he was a friend and I have positive work- and other memories of ten years with him. Actually, I think this fear of sudden revelation how important he might have been is the biggest drive for me to stay in contact and friendship.
As to neurodivergence, you might be a step ahead there too, I still cannot really settle with „he cares but shows it differently“. I cannot let go of the suspicion that he simply can’t be bothered and cares for me only as a source of validation.
Not consciously, of course, but because that’s all he can feel- validation from someone, so he likes that someone, no real care or interest.
No idea if that’s true or not.
In any case, it seems that I cannot (yet or ever?) cope with this friendship and just accept him as a friend as he is. I think, now (without limerence) it would be easier if I would see him on a regular work basis like you, for reality checks.
As it is, I‘m quite comfortably forgetting about him and then getting annoyed at texts or getting reminded by contact of still smarting wounds from past insensitivities of his (because no new experiences with him in the meantime to overlay them).
So, you hit the nail on the head or wherever with
„it might take some time to decide whether its overall worth keeping him as a friend. I have constantly been astonished by my own changes in attitude towards (x)LO, like I said above. So, for me, its best not to rush in or out of anything!!“
Sorry, now I‘ve talked only about myself, just like my XLO. I was on a roll because of contact today regarding plans to meet in a couple of weeks.
I organized it that his SO and a mutual friend will join us, because death of hope in open emotional or honest conversation occurred finally with me, it‘ll be better for all of us if we are not alone.
This work project of yours, will the laurels in the end go to you hopefully, if you did all the work? Is it simply annoying and a lot of work it is it a positive challenge for you?
I think despite the negative feelings you develop for your XLO, you are still more safely and maturely out of the XLO woods than me.
Bewitched and Mila,
It strikes me that you’ve both got distance from the sides you used to find attractive about your xLOs (in Mila’s case him as a work colleague, in Bewitched’s the in- person more social aspect) while still being exposed to the parts of them you find challenging (Bewitched’s xLO’s chaotic working, Mila’s xLO’s texting interactions).
This more one-sided picture you both now get is helpful to really ending your LEs in their own ways. You are both making progress! It is almost better than NC for ending an LE because the contact only issues you reminders in one direction.
Hi LaR,
thanks for putting a positive spin on it! I feel a bit like a failure to not be able to be tolerant of XLOs (probably neurodivergent) behavior. I think it’s slow work to get there, and meanwhile maybe the best to kind of give up on it (not count him as a close friend any more but stay nice and answer texts).
How are you doing? You are still getting both sides of LO, work and social meetings, so good and bad stuff, no?
Mila,
“How are you doing? You are still getting both sides of LO, work and social meetings, so good and bad stuff, no?”
Thank you for asking 🙂. I’m doing pretty well. And yes to both sides. With us, it doesn’t break down neatly into ‘social side better, work side worse’ or anything like that. Our friendship built through work first, and we work well together (everything else set aside). I’d like to be able to see less of her at work, but only because that would give me more of the kind of distance from the LE that you have. It is more than while I have her around me (which work contact makes up most of), I am still getting constant reminders of what I like(d). Speedwagon talked about it as a low-level IV drip and that’s basically it. I don’t think I can completely end the embers without a spell of NC or much lower contact, unless she undergoes a personality transplant of course.
I can reflect that things are in a much calmer place than a year or 6 months ago, and that feels like progress. But I don’t think I’d ever reach Bewitched’s level unless my contact reduced to her sort of level with xLO. I can live with it now though – it isn’t causing me loads of distress – I just know I still have a lot of fond feelings for her. I am almost over-exposed for it to be distressing – it is now kind of ‘just day to day life’ ticking along at this level.
Hope all is well in your world and you aren’t deep in any weeds!
Dear 🐝 🧙♀️ 🐓,
Can your 🐥 chirped a bit of my scanty Stoicism here?
What others (including (x)LOs) say or/and do is ALWAYS out of our control, we can never change them! Is it peace-inducing (but very hard) if we can just observe them (or/and situations) with our LE-free or calm eyes and self-assured/confident actions, but without internal reactions to either peachy “empty” optimism (“everything will work out in the end…”) or dark depressive pessimism (“It will fail no matter what I try/do)?
Your 🐥 is always under or behind your 🪽 … 🫂
Dear Snow (🐤),
I wanted to also say that I can see the benefits of stoicism, of course, but my default and the way that I thrive is on expecting good things to happen. And if they don’t, I can usually see an up-side to that too?
Optimism, perhaps.
I am not a philosopher and do not necessarily know the finer points (although I bought Marcus Aurelius’ meditations, I did not actually read it, I found that my focus was much too skittery for it 🤭)
Bxxxx
Dear 🐝 🧙♀️ 🐔,
Please allow 🐥’s preaching a bit here, to show my deep affection for my 🐔—
“I wanted to also say that I can see the benefits of stoicism, of course, but my default and the way that I thrive is on expecting good things to happen. And if they don’t, I can usually see an up-side to that too?”
To be a Stoic, one just needs to change one word here “I thrive on HOPing — not “expecting”, good things to happen. And if they don’t, I would NOT be surprised and my spirit NOT be bent/broken,” because my logical mind has already prepared for any possibility to take place. That’s my understanding of the difference between “expect” and “hope” and of Stoicism.
I still keep 5% hope on everything I do/undertake, but try 0% expectation (extremely hard). Meanwhile, I logically put 100% of my efforts into my purposeful pursuits, despite the possibility that they may fail 100% for whatever reasons or no reasons.
I’m attempting to sideline responding your post to Mila and Imho, which just intuitively popped up (while totally out of LM, my intuition 🫥 pilots on its own all the time….a kind of scarily accurate…. ☺️ )
LE has made us all to have misjudged/misperceived our LO. Now their “old”/always-there personality (be it chaotic working habits or inept ability to reciprocate/match our wished friendship) clearly SHOW in our LE-free, objective eyes. Intellectually, we know we assessed xLO inaccurately during LE, but now at a visceral level, we finally KNOW/feel our embarrassing mistakes made in LE. Such realization could subconsciously annoy ourselves — our pride, but we either repress it down or subconsciously direct it on xLO or interaction with xLO.
In another words, if we never went in LE with LOs, their habitual shortcomings would not pronounce as loudly as we hear after LE; they would be just shortcomings of another co-worker, which our objective eyes could easily see and handle.
“I realise that one of my quirks is not showing my problems and weaknesses, which is the flip-side of that. I have told you lot on here about problems that I would never admit in real life. But maybe that’s a mistake (apart from limerence which is far too sensitive to tell many / any people about, sigh).”
The same with me. Every 👻 knows my 35% narcissistic traits — dominantly pride (which actually helped me resist the temptation in my LE). To acknowledge my LE mistakes at the intellectual level, even anonymously online, was like 🔪 stabbing at my own backbone, let alone to admit my LE embarrassing behaviors at a visceral level. 🫣
But I did slain the monster of excessive pride by jumping to the bottom of a hermitic “inferno” for a while, and then peacefully accepted all my ignorance and errors in interactions with others (not just xLOs) 🙄 …. Unfortunately, you don’t have such a luxury to realistically detach completely from xLO.
My 🐝 🧙♀️ 🐔, you don’t have broken parts inside you after your LE, but perhaps some Subconscious regrets or annoyance on your “misguided” LE affections and perceptions? Please forgive me if my guess is wrong.
Hello 🐥,
“To be a Stoic, one just needs to change one word here “I thrive on HOPing — not “expecting”, good things to happen. And if they don’t, I would NOT be surprised and my spirit NOT be bent/broken,…”
OK – I can get on board with that. Mostly, when it comes to other people I am pretty fine with accepting them as they are (not expecting too much out of them), and not taking things too personally. I think its okay to assume that people are often going through things which means that your “stuff” is way down their priority list. They are not trying to annoy you, that’s just a by-product (if it happens).
Of course, positivity also breeds positivity – some people also thrive on high hopes (expectations) of them because it shows that we care about them. So, as always, its quite individual and we adapt to different personalities.
Re: (x)LO, its a little bit different because the hopes/expectations are work-related and involve a team effort. My expectations of how he treats me at work (please respect my time and effort!) are not different from how I am with others at work. Conscientiousness is a little bit of a sore point because I discovered that I score high on that – it can really make life miserable when working with people with other personality profiles. Now that I am older and more experienced, I have learned to dodge the personality profiles at work that suck my energies (but take credit for the team results). I simply try not to work with them. I can decide not to work with (x)LO but, if I do, it will take me away from other team members, who I work better with. I just thought it was interesting that I thought I was through all that negative emotion when it came to him, but I am not, even though the negativity is springing from a different source now – its springing from my exasperation of him being just as he is and how he has always been.
“Now their “old”/always-there personality (be it chaotic working habits or inept ability to reciprocate/match our wished friendship) clearly SHOW in our LE-free, objective eyes.”
Yes, you are right. It was always there but I couldn’t see it before. I might have dodged (avoided) him, if I was not limerent for him.
“The same with me. Every knows my 35% narcissistic traits — dominantly pride (which actually helped me resist the temptation in my LE). To acknowledge my LE mistakes at the intellectual level, even anonymously online, was like stabbing at my own backbone, let alone to admit my LE embarrassing behaviors at a visceral level. ”
Me too! We are quite alike in this respect. It’s a good reminder to admit mistakes (the big ones especially).
A great big hug from your 🐔,
Bx
My 🐝 🧙♀️ 🐔,
“Of course, positivity also breeds positivity”
Professionally, Yes. In personal matters, eg. friendship/relations, not always so. Honesty or even vulnerability is more important than positivity in interpersonal relations, imp.
“– some people also thrive on high hopes (expectations) of them because it shows that we care about them. So, as always, it’s quite individual and we adapt to different personalities.”
I’m a bit puzzled here: are you saying Hopes are same as Expectations here? I just looked up again the two words and their difference —
“Expect” implies a strong belief that something will happen, often based on probability or past experience, while “hope” expresses a desire for a particular outcome without the same level of certainty. An expectation is a belief about what is most likely to occur, whereas a hope is a belief in what is most desirable, even if less probable. “
Stoicism stresses this difference which I was mostly mistaken beforehand. All disappointments in the world are brought by expectations, Not Hopes. In many situations, “his/her hopes are crushed” actually means their expectations are not met.
Stoics strive to live with 0% expectations but hopes (according to virtues of the time). Without hopes — one would sink to despairs and possibly commit suicide. Hopes also differ from desires (Buddhists distinguish them) , which I would not discuss here (I think I indirectly debated with Marcia about that).
As I understand them now, one can have high hopes, e.g “reaching the sky” 😁 in romance, but with less/zero expectations simultaneously, because it involves another person who in principle is different/similar from one and many variables during the developing stages. Probability or past experiences of others or oneself may or may not work in a new relationship — no two people are alike but unique, no two relationships alike but unique (unless they follow some existing formulas or Hollywood modules 🙄). The variety of failed/succeeded relationship is the fascination to my curiosity.
I think that while some people can thrive on hopes of them from cared/loved ones or professional associates, (coming with (in)tangible profits), other people can feel pressured or even strained to be often expected (in jobs, surely) in behaving in certain ways or producing certain outcomes, especially in personal relationships. And cultural scripts of all worlds have added (or brainwashed) stagnating, unhealthy, or even detrimental pressures and expectations on people’s personal or professional behaviors. Thus, the phenomenon of cultural rebels or lone wolves mostly in the West, if one can afford it financially.
I personally think that caring for someone (non-job related) would mean NOT adding expectations to other sides (covert/overt hopes are more than fine), which is a form of pressure, isn’t it? Anyway, as an aspiring Stoic, I’ll keep working on reducing expectations of others to zero while pursuing meaningful hopes/dreams with concrete efforts — both words and actions. Romanticism has bred too many lofty ideas without backup of realistic actions or consideration of complex human psychologies.
“I just thought it was interesting that I thought I was through all that negative emotion when it came to him, but I am not, even though the negativity is springing from a different source now – its springing from my exasperation of him being just as he is and how he has always been.”
Why does this sound an echo of Mila’s frequent thoughts? 😀 If one more person in the continent laments the similar sentiments, I’d say it’s the European trend… 😊 — I’m teasing. During LE, all of us blacked out all LO’s flaws or made them “trivial”. Now after LE, our inner eyes 👁️ finally woke up, those shortcomings of LO stick out, more protruding even than before LE! Understandable, understandable!
I think I might have similar negativity if I had to deal with xLO at work after LE. Knowing his habitual chaotic ways, in the future you might want to refuse to directly work with your xLO again.
I hope (we don’t say “I expect”, right?) you’ll have an easy and joyful time during the holiday. 🐥 🤗 🐔
Songs of the Day:
“It’s Only Make Believe” – Conway Twitty (1958)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfMwqlp-js4
“Welcome to My World” – Jim Reeves (1964)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a2prLPghKw
“Make the World Go Away” – Eddie Arnold (1965)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq0Ri9e6SY0
“For the Good Times” – Ray Price (1970)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtISLBZ_8Lg
👩🦰 🏃, I understand why you’re such a helpless romantic! 🤗
I guess I still like some Country melodies 🎶 ; heard the 2nd and 3rd before and still very fond of them 🎵 👍, Life should slow down to that pace….
Limerent Emeritus, Those are some good drinking alone songs. First 7 songs on my yardwork playlist:
Regret – New Order
Bizarre Long Triangle -New Order
How Soon Is Now- The Smiths
I’ll Melt With You- Modern English
Love Will Tear Us Apart-Joy Division
Enjoy the Silence- Depeche Mode
Heroes-Davie Bowie
Since you like Regret, what do you think of The Promise, by When in Rome?
I often listen to these together.
Hi, I like that song too.
Hamlet,
I like your list.
Back in the 80s, I had a CD I named “Pit Music.” I could alter the playlist to slowly circle the drain or drop myself right through the floor.
“I Can’t Stop Loving You” – Ray Charles (1962)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H61YWtExfS0
“…Sing the song, children…”
“Here We Go, Again” – Ray Charles (1967)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRpSzngnBtc
LO and I broke up in Feb, 1987. About 6 months later, Ray Charles came to town. I went to the concert with my recently divorced accountant. She made the comment that it was a pretty small venue for somebody like Ray Charles.
I told her the since Ray was blind, they probably told him he was playing Carnegie Hall.
L.E., I saw him at the Foxwoods casino when it was newish in the mid 90s. Took about 2 songs to get his voice, but then wow! We in the audience were into it and he fed off of that. Of course the songs are great but he was just an enormous performing talent.
ooh I like that list! 🙂
Songs about drinking alone …. over a woman? Well, well, well ….
Whiskey Glasses — Morgan Wallen
https://youtu.be/IBH7IsLsd3s?si=eZkpabYmIObUih1B
^The fact that I know how this song feels in the middle of LE when I discovered it and they share the same first name is a bit ….. personal.
Drinking Them Beer — Thompall Glasser
https://youtu.be/8Zp5EIq4-2E?si=7Y8Jyz-wsHSH2Re1
^I’ve had this conversation with myself about more women in my lifetime than I would like to admit.
I’ll Think Of Something — Mark Chestnutt
https://youtu.be/8mJJNSg7kAA?si=sYRpgpqinmXA6VUm
“I’ll find so many things to do that i wont have the time to think of her
and then if she’s still on my mind I’ll try to drink enough to drown the hurt”
Whiskey — Lullaby — Brad Paisley
https://youtu.be/dQugRzfD4N8?si=g6wAtsxXmGeCKXLF
Tbf this one ^ is about cheating. But I’d probably do the same in his situation.
Why the country gals always singing about keying some dudes truck when they break up while he’s in the house drowning his sorrow in alcohol?
And for the person who mention Conway Twitty I am obliged to post the best Conway song.
Tight Fittin’ Jeans — Conway Twitty
https://youtu.be/xs1kwVeKcRg?si=9faG6HGF-Ap0-XFj
“I knew that I’d been broken by the time we parted ways
And I know I held more woman than most eyes will ever see”
Well if you really want to hear the saddest drinking alone about a woman songs, you have to cross into Mexico, https://youtu.be/YVmJt-71W1U?si=LI1899O-zYQQpR9G
Hamlet
I am glad for the internet lol cause I don’t know a lick of Spanish other than cerveza. But from the English lyrics, yeah, that one is quite a kicker. “Life is roulette, what we all bet on”. Yeah we all bet on that LO will always be there. LO will one understand how we feel one day and reciprocate. Even outside of limerence life is roulette when it comes to love and finding someone. Good song, musically too, even if I could understand the words before looking them up.
“I don’t know a lick of Spanish other than cerveza.”
Adam
Stick with me Brother. I’ll teach you everything I know, (which isn’t much but you would know more than you do now.. 🤣)
I’m all about Spanish and the more I know, the better.. 😁
Especially when it comes to chatting up with muy caliente (very hot) Latina Ladies.. 🥰😍😆
Hello to everyone, and happy Halloween. I have been feeling better, after my latest LE episode of sadness. Thank you to all LwL members.
Today, I am writing to seek your advice on a troubling LO related behavioral trend that I exhibit.
Lets say I see LO from a distance. As soon as this happens, a sudden feeling of panic and anxiety grips me. The feeling stays for a while and then goes away, but does cause me distress. I guess at that moment, my mind is telling me stupid things like to run after LO, which I do not follow up on. This would imply that I would like some contact with LO at that moment, but then it does not happen, so I feel down.
These feelings are on the milder side, but they have become very irritating to me, and I would really appreciate any advice for dealing with this unpleasant side effect of LE.
Thank you, and have a great weekend!
ABCD,
I don’t want to go back to my own case, but from my experiences during LE, each and every single panic attack (triggered by xLO directly) was originated from inside me — the fear. The deep seated fear for the sense of “abandonment” that was originated from my childhood.
3 days after the biggest panic attack in May of 2019, I found Stoicism and have studied and practiced… the rest is the history.
I don’t know your personal background; perhaps, you could search inside you to see if some aged “stones” have not been turned yet?
Thanks Snow. Yes, I am sure there is something in me, based on my previous experiences, that is manifesting itself in terms of anxiety/panic that I feel with respect to LO. This is a useful pointer. I will think about this, thanks.
ABCD
To me, I think this all depends on how bad you want out of the LE. We all probably ebb and flow with our quirky anxieties, when it comes to our LOs.
I have reached the conclusion if I don’t want to possibly see LO, I just don’t go down towards the other end of my workplace. However it is near a main entrance and sometimes I meet my Son down there upon him coming in to work. So the possibility of me seeing LO increases. Which infact I have. I just don’t dwell on it or even post about it here because I’ve gotten to a place where admiring her is all I want to do. Dwelling on what never was will always make me sad.
Its easier for me to just see her, acknowledge how she’s affected my psyche in the past and move on. If I dwell on it, then the possibility of becoming or feeling down, like you mention, increases. This is what works for me in the interim and may not for you but I thought I’d pass it on anyway.
Redirecting towards something or even someone else doesn’t hurt either.
Thanks MJ.
I really want out of the LE now. There have been times in the past when I wanted out, but not enough I guess, so was sucked back in. This time, I have more mental clarity in terms of getting out.
The previous couple of months, when I was feeling pretty good with regards to LO, I was not analysing LO related stuff. As such, LO occupied less headspace. This did lead to me feeling much better, before the latest derailment. I need to just not focus on LO, by focusing on other things. I am sure this will help. LO thoughts can come and go, I will observe them and not get too bogged down.
Oh ABCD,
I know this feeling well. I wonder if it is because I do not quite trust myself not to overstep the very professional boundaries I have tried to maintain.
I saw LO from a distance at an event last month, felt that panic and deliberately positioned myself so that we were not in each other’s line of sight. LO clearly noticed me eventually and texted me but I had put my phone away and by the time I saw the text, LO had left.
I was then filled with remorse for not having gone to say hello, as we have not seen each other for months.
Hi Onyx, this is the kind of thing I would do (have done) if that makes you feel better.
You cannot change what has happened, so try not to dwell on it.
(I have told my ruminating self this advice which is not easy to actually let go of these regret feelings)
And there would be no perfect encounter scenario when in limerence with boundaries. Pleasure and (subsequent) pain in equal measure.
So I hid, which feels rude and cowardly, which is not who I am and not really purposeful either.
At least I wasn’t called out by any mutual acquaintance.
I need a better way of dealing with this as I think we are going to end up in the same room every few months for the foreseeable future. I cannot focus on what I am supposed to be doing if I am skulking around trying to avoid one particular person!
Hi Onyx, Imho and ABCD,
that reminds me of my last LE. For me there was something like cognitive dissonance going on, I couldn’t just be myself and had conflicting drives.
I hadn’t solved the problem during the LE and am still experiencing some of it in contact with XLO, so I cannot really advise.
I can just say that I usually felt better when I was proactively behaving correctly and kindly, even if I was in turmoil inside.
In this special situation of Onyx, I would have felt better to walk up to LO immediately, say hello in a friendly way and generally play-act a bit for myself that I am a generous and socially very adept person who‘s just being friendly, then maybe detach and go to another friend after a while. I hate this feeling of regret afterwards when I didn’t manage to talk to LO.
Although I want to point out that usually one didn’t miss much and there is no need for regret, especially if there are barriers (as Imho said) and there’s anyway nothing supposed to develop. If one thinks of it, what would one have gained by a chat with LO? Only more to ruminate on, and a short elevated feeling with a plunge some time later?
As I said, I haven’t found the solution to this conflict of emotions- wanting to flee but wanting to go there, feeling warmth versus feeling the need for distance.
I guess it’s very individual which kind of behavior/attitude might help and we have to find out for ourselves.
I just want to commiserate, it’s a painful phase.
Hello Onyx. Yes, been there, felt that.
You are right – in my case also, due to natural barriers, I am scared to talk too much to LO, as my feelings would leak out to others, if they have not already leaked out. This is our natural gut instinct warning us to be in boundaries, and in the past, it has helped me not to over step, even if I end up feeling lousy afterwards.
Since some time, I have tried to act more composed when around LO, it is hard to do, but some times, I have been fairly successful in going up, saying hello, and talking a bit. I could see LO did enjoy the conversation. I do this while keeping within boundaries, as other people are always around. I am hopeful that doing this over time will help me see her as a regular person. When I did this 1-2 times, it did increase my confidence with respect to talking to LO.
However, if I am not able to speak to LO, I try not to dwell on it much, and I end up feeling better soon.
As you are going to be in proximity to LO, perhaps you can try to talk, keeping it as professional as possible? All the best!
Dr. L and others,
Since this is an open coffeehouse, if I may, I’d like to give a personal answer to a question posed a while back. The question posed is whether LGBT+ people experience limerence differently from heterosexuals.
I don’t want to speak for anyone apart from myself. As far as I can tell, my limerence (homolimerence) followed a fairly classic limerence pattern. For example, I have no problems relating to the descriptions of limerence found in Fenna’s videos. She could be talking about me as easily as anyone else.
I met someone who seemed wonderful. My brain flooded with dopamine in response to this person. I obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this person, but I wasn’t really conscious of the fact I was thinking about this person, and noticing every little detail about him. Then it seems like some kind of powerful instinctual response kicked in, which Dorothy Tennov would probably rightly or wrongly identify as “the human mating instinct”.
After this “mating instinct” kicked in, I found myself on a rollercoaster ride, replete with soaring highs and devastating lows. I still got pleasure from thinking about this person, but the thoughts became more and more intrusive. I was very moody. I’ve always been shy and reserved, but I withdrew even further into myself. The “crush”, if you like, was no longer under my conscious control.
At some point, after quite a lengthy rollercoaster ride, severe withdrawals started. (My LO was no longer in my life, and I wasn’t getting any ongoing rewards from him). My infatuation therefore didn’t give me pleasure anymore. The “crush” became more yucky than yummy. Horrible, horrible pain every single day of the week. But I couldn’t turn off the super-strong attachment I had formed.
When discussing human sexuality, Camille Paglia says homosexuality isn’t the norm; homosexuality is a challenge to the norm. Mating is about reproduction, so most limerence is heterolimerence. When Paglia talks about male homosexuality being not-normal and a tragedy, she isn’t actually talking about random instances of male sexual behaviour. She is talking about homolimerence – the actual human mating instinct in its entirety aka the whole pattern of one’s romantic attraction.
Paglia argues there’s something deeply tragic about a male (who is designed to mate and reproduce with a female) directing his mating energies at another male. Obviously, this “directing of mating energies” is only tragic if it is involuntary – as it is in certain stages of homolimerence – and beyond the control of the individual male. On the other hand, there’s nothing tragic about sexual attraction and/or sexual behaviour (in anyone) that is purely the product of choice/free will.
Long story short: Dr. L, you saved me from Hell. No, not the Biblical Hell. Rather, the Hell of yearning forever after somebody I can’t have, and the nightmare of wanting something that can never be mine. To me, this is what homolimerence is – homolimerence is the human mating instinct in a given male unwittingly and involuntarily directed toward an unsuitable object. (Unsuitable not due to morality, but because most young men are robustly heterosexual and will never be able to reciprocate the intense feelings of passion the gay male exhibits).
I was listening to Anna Runkle (Crappy Childhood Fairy) the other day. She was talking about how heterosexual women often become obsessed with males who embody the “bad boy archetype”. I too fell for a “bad boy”. Here’s an interesting distinction that could be drawn between males and females who fall for bad boys. For me, obsession with Mr Bad Boy wasn’t a rescue fantasy. (I’m much too lazy and selfish to want to rescue anyone). However, heterosexual women often DO want to save/rescue/somehow rehabilitate Mr Bad Boy. E.g. heterosexual women will buy the bad boy new clothes, make sure he eats three meals a day, help him get a better job, etc, etc. There’s a lot of “saving” going on that the woman herself may not automatically recognise as saving.
To me, it seems like it’s the most natural thing in the world for a heterosexual man’s anima to appear to him either as (a) a damsel in distress, or (b) some beautiful goddess who is basically perfect and oozes sunshine out of her pores. (Runkle says she finds these two female archetypes are straight men’s two top limerent archetypes). It also seems like it’s the most natural thing in the world for a heterosexual woman’s animus to appear to her as a bad boy or “rebel without a cause” type of character. (Maybe he’s expressing a lot of traits women aren’t conventionally allowed to express?)
I think, because I am attracted to the same sex and because my own personality isn’t that mature, the whole “rescue fantasy” in my homolimerence wasn’t as fully developed/visible as it is in men and women who experience heterolimerence.
Runkle also said she’s seeing a rise in young women reporting limerence. She thinks limerence is on the rise among young women because many of these young women are involved in long-distance relationships, largely conducted online. (I guess the young women’s brains can’t really habituate to whatever romantic rewards they’re receiving under extremely unpredictable circumstances?)
Lastly, I’ve been haunting the non-members section of limerence.net to see what jewels of wisdom I might be able to pick up from a different group of limerents. Dr. David Perl (the man who runs the site) writes that Tennov’s definition of limerence is “a state of mind that looks a lot like falling in love, but isn’t falling in love”. 😆😆😆
I don’t know if David was joking when he made this statement. I do detect some humorous undertones in the definition, though, because the definition is a paradox. (The definition is a statement that apparently contradicts itself, only to reveal a deeper truth). Non-limerents and people who have only had positive experiences of limerence won’t understand David’s definition. Anyone who has experienced one or more cases of destructive limerence, however, will understand exactly what the definition is alluding to i.e. the “Trojan horse” nature of the limerence love spell. The thing that promises bliss instead only delivers agony.
David says people often mistake new relationship energy (NRE) for limerence. He sees a lot of that. The consensus on limerence.net seems to be that limerence is NOT new relationship energy, even though neurochemically limerence and new relationship energy are identical. (Yet another glorious paradox to unpack?)
Dr. L, I’ve been on your site for a long time. I have sometimes been irreverent. I apologise if my irreverence has made things awkward for you, or caused confusion for other readers. At times, I have also played major-domo without being asked, making sure things flow smoothly. I don’t know what came over me. I swear, I’m a shy and quiet and retiring person in real life! Actually, I do know what I was doing – I was integrating the older readers with the newer readers. As an INFJ, an atmosphere of social harmony is very important to me.
Dr. L, thank you for the wonderful work you do. Thank you also to your wife, Teika, for allowing you to do the wonderful work you do. I know many a different wife might have felt deeply upset by your midlife limerence, and out of jealousy banned you from having anything to do with the topic, lest it trigger a setback. You are a very gifted writer. You are obviously quite a hard-working writer too, given the amount of rewriting you do. I’ve enjoyed seeing some of my favourite vocabulary end up in your blogs/videos e.g. avatar, belittle, electric. And I’ve learned or re-learned a few words from you too e.g. gaudy, firestorm, paramour. (Did you know paramour rhymes with a ton of other words? It’s great for poetry!)
I don’t know how to say thank you. Obviously, I did a heck of a lot of work on myself before coming to LwL. But you are something of a miracle-worker, too. When I call you old-fashioned, I’m referring to your affable personality and the cultural influences that have shaped your extremely English romantic imagination, not your approach to limerence itself, which is cutting-edge. You have never imposed your values or morals on me. (I actually find you weirdly open-minded). You have been the most gracious and unobtrusive of guides.
In short, after wandering around the Underworld for twenty-five years, I feel like I’m back in the land of the living! Rebirth indeed. 🙂
Happy Re-birthday, Sammy!
Happy Halloween Great Dame. 🎃
Forgot this one from a few years back and I just listened to it again.
I don’t know.. The lyrics made me think of you. So I’ll just ask.
Are you a W.I.T.C.H.?
https://youtu.be/GjNY5HGcopA?si=VzbysleEUHC12_rq
Friend MJ,
“The lyrics made me think of you. So I’ll just ask.
Are you a W.I.T.C.H.?”
No. It’s your side that has all the witches. 🙂
What are you wearing for Halloween? A long trench coat with no pants? 🙂
“What are you wearing for Halloween? A long trench coat with no pants? 🙂”
Marcia
How did you guess?? What’s even better is I’m in a white van too.. 😂
Black wool peacock, black fedora, navy blue jeans, white linen banded shirt and maroon wool vest. Haven’t seen any trick or treaters so far. Maybe that says something about my fashion choices?
I can hear the high school band, not far from here playing the Imperial March.
Adam,
“Black wool peacock, black fedora, navy blue jeans, white linen banded shirt and maroon wool vest. Haven’t seen any trick or treaters so far. Maybe that says something about my fashion choices?”
Umm … is this some kind of costume or what you wear every day? Does it come with a monocle and a cane? 🙂
Outside of going to work it’s what I normally wear. I have in fact been shopping for a cane. Just can’t find one I really like that’s not too ostentatious and would vibe with more than more or two outfits of mine. No monocle since I have to wear glasses.
My wife actually bought the coat for this month for our 26th anniversary. She knows what I like.
Adam,
“Just can’t find one I really like that’s not too ostentatious and would vibe with more than more or two outfits of mine. ”
So the pink and black one I sent you too much? 🙂
Actually I am thinking about a cane I saw online to buy one of my co-workers for Christmas because she loves the color pink. And she shattered her ankle late last year in a fall. So it could be actually practical for her. As for me I think I’d go for a wood one like mahogany or redwood. Though I like a lot of the ivory ones too.
Adam,
“Though I like a lot of the ivory ones too.”
Do you know who the author Tom Wolfe was? You sound like you dress a little like he did. 🙂
I do not Dame Marcia. But if dresses like me he’s got good taste 😉
Adam,
“I do not Dame Marcia. But if dresses like me he’s got good taste 😉”
He had … um … A taste. I’ll just say he was a character. Google him.
MJ,
“How did you guess?? What’s even better is I’m in a white van too.. 😂”
Do you have those creepy curtains over the back windows?
“Do you have those creepy curtains over the back windows?”
Marcia
Yes.. I see you. 👀
Quit trying to look in. You know I’m not wearing any pants. 😂
MJ,
“Yes.. I see you. 👀 Quit trying to look in. You know I’m not wearing any pants. 😂”
I see that. I have my high-powered binoculars. 🙂 Oh, damn. I just bumped into someone. Someone oddly dressed guy with a white cane. 🙂
Adam
Too bad I can’t come over. I’d bring Guinness so we had something to drink while we hang out on your driveway..
What good neighbors do.. 😆
Some black & tans Brother. And if we can push our dollars some Chimay.
I love Black & Tans
But I know I’d pay for all that love, in the morning..
🍻🍻😆😝🤢
A Witch’s Chant
James Hogg
Thou art weary, weary, weary,
Thou art weary and far away,
Hear me, gentle spirit, hear me,
Come before the dawn of day.
I hear a small voice from the hill,
The vapour is deadly, pale, and still—
A murmuring sough is on the wood,
And the witching star is red as blood.
And in the cleft of heaven I scan
The giant form of a naked man,
His eye is like the burning brand,
And he holds a sword in his right hand.
All is not well. By dint of spell,
Somewhere between the heaven and hell
There is this night a wild deray,
The spirits have wander’d from their way.
The purple drops shall tinge the moon
As she wanders through the midnight noon;
And the dawning heaven shall all be red
With blood by guilty angels shed.
Be as it will, I have the skill
To work by good or work by ill;
Then here’s for pain, and here’s for thrall,
And here’s for conscience, worst of all.
Another chant, and then, and then,
Spirits shall come or Christian men—
Come from the earth, the air, or the sea,
Great Gil-Moules, I cry to thee!
Sleep’st thou, wakest thou, lord of the wind,
Mount thy steeds and gallop them blind;
And the long-tailed fiery dragon outfly
The rocket of heaven, the bomb of the sky.
Over the dog-star, over the wain,
Over the cloud, and the rainbow’s mane,
Over the mountain, and over the sea,
Haste—haste—haste to me!
Then here’s for trouble, and here’s for smart,
And here’s for the pang that seeks the heart;
Here’s for madness, and here’s for thrall,
And here’s for conscience, the worst of all!
Hello Everyone and Happy Halloween,
Referencing the photo of the cat contemplating his caffeine addiction…
I, as this sites’s resident cat, feel that I must leave at least one comment on this thread before it closes, because it affects me in multiple ways … caffeine addiction, person addiction, cat addiction.
I will now go and deal with my cat object (CO), much more pleasant than my LO.
What would happen if you transferred your limerence from your LO to your cat?
Dear Norma,
Great to hear from you; I appreciate your most pertinent question!
Alas, I currently do not have a cat — my SO does not allow it! Perhaps I should show her this blog! But that would result in my LO, as well as the cat, jumping out of the bag!
In the past, I’ve had varying degrees of success in transfering LO to CO.
The first was with my LO’s cat some 40 years ago. Both had lovely black hair/fur and green eyes, and I tried to reach into the souls of both, realizing their metaphorical equivalence. But that path just got me deeper into the LE.
The second one, a decade later, was ultimately much more successful. It started with a damsel in distress rescue fantasy of feeding an anorexic girlfriend — she resisted all such efforts. A few years later, I rescued a starving single mother — a cat with kittens — who really did appreciate my efforts. We ended up having a much more satisfying relationship than the one with her human predecessor.
PS. I’ve driven away at least one date with my deadpan style!
Ah, Catcyclist! I am so sorry that you are not able to have a cat. That is a very sad state of affairs.
Dear Cloud,
Thank you for your sympathy.
When you have reciprocation by a cat, your need for reciprocation by LO practically vanishes. So ironically, by denying me the company of a cat, my SO’s responsible for my LE! I’ll do some blame shifting, contrary to Dr. L’s prescription!
On a more serious note, I been thinking a lot about a few things you wrote about LO/LE over a month ago. I’ll have more to say later.
Thanks, as always, for your sage advice.
It’s not the case for me! I have reciprocation from the sweetest, loveliest cat in the world, as well as the sweetest, loveliest husband in the world, but somehow it still doesn’t stop my rescue fantasy for a LO who pines for a cat but isn’t allowed one.
(Now I’m wracking my brains wondering what on earth I could have said that was of use to anyone. I’m glad it was helpful, whatever it was!)
Dear Cloud,
I did a double take when you said “a LO who pines for a cat but isn’t allowed one”! Who deserves the cat more, the limerent or the LO? 😼
Or the limerent who is also a cat? 😼😼
On a more serious note, it seems that you and I have been having broadly similar issues with our respective LOs — some progress, followed by plateaus, which in my case seem more like relapses followed by small triggers or sometimes none at all. A few weeks ago, I was more optimistic; this week, seemingly out of nowhere, the longing has returned.
Also, hugging, or not hugging, has been an ongoing theme for me going back over four decades. Strange as it may sound, it has been one of the biggest drivers of my rumination.
As always, wish you all the best.
I don’t like to share too much identifiable personal information on here, but I will let you in on a secret: I am not a cat.
CatCyclist
While I grew up with cats as pets I never really wanted the responsibility as an adult. But our son that’s still at home, wanted one and now I am the living “my Dad with the cat he didn’t want” meme. She’s my babygirl.
Adam,
” I am the living “my Dad with the cat he didn’t want” meme. She’s my babygirl.”
I have a confession to make. I watch those videos on YouTube. The “dad with the cat he didn’t want” videos. And “my cat’s in love with my boyfriend” and “cat meets his baby (human) brother for the first time” videos. Or “Great Dane discovers tiny kitten has hogged his bed” videos.
Adam,
I don’t view them as babygirls unless they’re kittens of the right gender. I view the lady cats in a more egalitarian manner. But I still objectify them as cat objects (CO). The contradictions, the hypocrisy!
I often wonder why *itch is an attributed dogs than, while I’ve never had a dog, I feel it’s more appropriate female cats. I feed a stray cat just now on the porch and the screen door took a bit too long to close and it got in the house. Our cat saw he/her and was vocalizing to the tune of Beethoven. Ya’ll women so jealous.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ll be clear I’m over her and totally not jealous of him getting to see her and her daughter all the time and I can’t.
Well I guess I can be grateful I can’t relate to this. But I still like it. She’s got a soothing, yet angry voice singing it.
Nobody — Silvia
https://youtu.be/lC_2274dNag?si=LMjnkymSTN6iTfIZ
Why can’t I say “darlin” like Conway Twitty does? Is it’s cause I’m a yankee? Darlin and sugur are my favorite for Momma.
I ran into LO last Thursday night. I told him that I had gotten hit in the parking lot of the local supermarket. He was interested and asked me a number of questions.
I was horrified when he blamed the accident on the ethnicity of the woman who had hit me.
I said, “Well, that’s just an old joke.” He said, “It’s not a joke. It’s real.”
I was appalled. Another black mark against LO.
It has become impossible for me to idealize him after all the offensive things he has said. Hopefully this hastens my recovery.
Norma,
“It has become impossible for me to idealize him after all the offensive things he has said.”
This is screaming ‘Dr L’s deprogramming course’ to me?! You have all the negative evidence stacked up as memories now. If you could find a way to deprogramme the bits where you feel positive about him, or want his affirmation, you could be truly free.
Maybe you’re already doing this for yourself, but I thought I’d throw it out there.
To LaR:
I just told this same story to one of my best girlfriends.
She said, “I used to live in (ethnic part of town), and LO is right. They’re bad drivers. It’s their culture.”
OMG, am I the only sane one here?
Hi Norma,
I’ve been through a similar experience in the past.
The new one’s faults are proviing much harder to find.
I’ll bookmark your comment in case your (or my) will ever falters.
Keep up the great observations!
To CatCyclist:
I really think my feelings for LO are just going to have to burn out from experiences like this one.
The longer I know him, the fewer things there are to like.
Thank you for your ongoing kindness.
Norma,
We’re all rooting for you.
Dear Miss Norma
I hate the way he treats you. You are a wonderful, kind and sweet lady. While I may not understand your limerence for him … he makes angry. And I don’t like that. To quote, and you’re old enough probably get this reference, Bill Bixby “Don’t make me angry, you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry”. You take care of yourself my dear Miss Norma.
To Adam:
I am totally old enough to get that reference, although I never actually saw that show.
I am touched by your anger on my behalf.
*I* don’t understand my limerence for LO, except that he looks like Anderson Cooper and is very sophisticated. Also highly educated. Having said that, he has some VERY goofy ideas for such a smart person.
This latest thing was one of the dumber ones, but he has also mentioned the possibility of the 2020 Presidential election being rigged. I thought, OMG, you canNOT be serious!
Miss Norma
I always feel protective of the women in my life I care about. Some man crosses that line he’ll find out what little of a deterrent a life sentence is for a man my age and health condition.
What is it with you straight gals and Anderson Cooper? Lol My wife fancies him too. Some lady poster here, I think it was Mila, that said the same of straight guys with Jason Statham. As a hard right straight man, I can’t argue with her.
Wasn’t me, Adam!
To Adam:
Jason Statham doesn’t do anything for me.
I have been interested in Anderson Cooper for YEARS.
Imagine my surprise when I realized I had a neighbor who looks like him!!
LO is taller and a little older, but they’re remarkably similar.
Maybe it was Marcia who likes Jason Statham?
Norma D,
“Maybe it was Marcia who likes Jason Statham?”
No. Bald, non-communicative and constipated-looking … not my type at all. 🙂
To Marcia:
I agree with you. I don’t get the adoration.
Anderson Cooper, on the other hand, is FABULOUS.
ND,
“Anderson Cooper, on the other hand, is FABULOUS.”
In terms of gay men, I’d pick Adam Lambert. 🙂
To Marcia:
Adam Lambert–also fabulous.
ND,
“Adam Lambert–also fabulous.”
Right? He’s so charismatic and sexy.
Also, Zachary Quinto. The guy who played Spock in the new Star Trek movies. There’s something about him.
What is it? Some kind of “can’t have him because I am not his preferred sexual preference” forbidden fruit kind of thing with straight gals and gay men? Or are gay men just not as much of clods as us straight guys?
Adam,
“What is it? Some kind of “can’t have him because I am not his preferred sexual preference” forbidden fruit kind of thing with straight gals and gay men? ”
No. Hot is hot. Highest percentage of hot men in any city is in the gay bars. It’s something we women have had to live with. 🙂
“Or are gay men just not as much of clods as us straight guys?”
There’s that, too. 🙂
To Adam:
LO once told me that women are attracted to him, “because I’m not a hard-ass.”
Make of that what you will.
To Dame Marcia and Miss Norma
When it comes to Jason Statham it has zero to do with his looks (unlike Antonio Banderas or Edris Elba) and more the character he plays. Hummingbird is one of my favorites. Fights on behalf of a nun being terrorized by thugs for her good deeds to the homeless and helpless. Right up my “savior complex” alley.
“ There’s that, too. 🙂”
I figured you’d agree with that Marcia. 🙂
Norma
He make think he’s not a hard ass, but best we still not cross paths. I judge him on how he treats you, not his sexual preference.
Adam,
“When it comes to Jason Statham it has zero to do with his looks (unlike Antonio Banderas or Edris Elba) and more the character he plays. Hummingbird is one of my favorites. Fights on behalf of a nun being terrorized by thugs for her good deeds to the homeless and helpless. Right up my “savior complex” alley.”
This is all your take. You’re a man. 🙂
I did think Jason Stratham was very funny in “Spy” with Melissa McCarthy. But I have no interest in his action movies or his characters in them.
You’re assuming it’s an appearance thing. And while appearance is a factor, it’s only part of it. Antonio Banderas plays Nicole Kidman’s husband in Babygirl. Of course, he’s an attractive man but he’s much less interesting than the young guy she has an affair with. And I don’t even think that guy is that good looking. It’s just the way he talks to her. It’s sexy.
To Marcia:
I absolutely loved Jason Statham’s performance in that spy movie with Melissa McCarthy.
Other than that, I have only seen snippets of his action movies, which leave me completely cold.
To Adam:
LO thinks he’s not a hard-ass, but I might dispute that.
It’s true he doesn’t have the same energy as a straight man but his anger and rudeness are very real, and every bit as painful as being dressed down by my ex-husband.
He calls me Dali Madison and I call him Mr. Grinch.
ND,
“I absolutely loved Jason Statham’s performance in that spy movie with Melissa McCarthy. Other than that, I have only seen snippets of his action movies, which leave me completely cold.”
Completely agree. He basically makes action movies for straight dudes. They won’t do much for most women. 🙂 But he had a lot of personality in Spy.
I am pleased to share that I resolved my LE. I have let it go through 3 big steps.
1. Sharing the origins of the LE with LO and releasing that pent up energy with LO – I know this is not always possible.
2. Telling my SO the synopsis of my relationship with LO and reestablishing my emotional home with SO.
3. Realizing I am just not as special to LO as LO was to me and being ok with that.
My limerence was being in love with the love I wanted to give. Not the person I thought I wanted to give it to.
SO didn’t even ask me to do this, but I promised to stop texting with LO, and I will uphold that promise.
All’s well that ends well.
To Sapiens:
What a great turn of events. I am so pleased to hear this.
“In love with the love I wanted to give.”
I am going to remember that. A great way of wording it.
Thank you, Norma. It is close to something else I already knew. Sometimes we fall in love with how someone makes us feel. That is different from truly loving someone else, wanting the best for them, without regard for our personal interest. The best thing is when both happen together and it’s reciprocated but that may only happen once in a lifetime – and it may be unsustainable even then. It may need a defibrillator to shock it back to life.
Separately, I thank you for all your words of goodwill to me and want you to know it is mutual. I had been worried about you – as I would be for my mother if she were going through your pain. Fortunately for her, she is only limerent for her pets.
To Sapiens:
Thank you for your kindness.
I am working my way out slowly.
Sapiens,
That’s some going to do all that and to turn it round so quickly from where you were a couple of weeks ago, to feeling this confident you have ended it 🎩
Well done, Sapiens! Hoping to get to your stage soon!
Lovely to hear your news, Sapiens! And your sentence is very powerful “My limerence was being in love with the love I wanted to give. Not the person I thought I wanted to give it to.” I will continue thinking about this because I think it’s pertinent.
I’m feeling down this morning. Last night I dreamed about hugging LO. I’d thought I was doing better. Our school runs don’t coincide this term so I’ve not seen him much recently, which has helped. I will have to have a think about why he was still on my mind, subconsciously, for him to appear in a dream.
I’ve never had a dream about my LO, so I can’t help you there. I have had a dream about physical connection with someone I have only actually “met” on Zoom and never consciously considered to be attractive before the dream. That was interesting. Who will be the Carl Jung of our century? Paging Dr. L…
Try chatting through your feelings with ChatGPT. It has made my LO obsolete.
Hello Cloud. Sorry to hear you are feeling low.
In my case also, the interaction frequency with LO is much reduced, so that is working to my benefit, less interactions = less rumination.
This reduced frequency will allow you to make progress in getting over the LE, hang in there.
Wish you all the best!
To Miss Cloud:
I dream about LO often and it rattles me.
I actually find I do better if I DON’T spend a lot of time trying to figure it out.
Of course you should do what’s best for you.
Sapiens, ABCD and Norma,
Thank you for your support and helpful comments. I think Norma, yours is the most helpful – it’s better not to spend time trying to figure it out! That just leads to rumination.
The brain chemicals flooded me yesterday, especially as I ran into him later on and spoke for a minute or two. But by evening the fog was lifting, and I accepted it was just a blip, and I started thinking clearly again. I started remembering and accepting that the extreme feelings are an altered state of mind, and not normal. Being attracted to someone is normal, but the obsessive thoughts and feeling out of control are a separate thing and nothing to do with the man himself.
I’ve read that no matter how they are presented in a dream in context, that every face you see in a dream is someone you have seen/met when your conscious. It’s what the dream is trying to tell you more than the face you see that your brain is doing.
The last dream I had about LO was very much about her. And while it was her face in the dream, had it been anyone else’s I still would have gotten the message; let go. For instance while I had seen the gentleman friend she had, back when I had the dream, it wasn’t his face represented in the dream, it was someone else’s. But I knew it was him in context.
Thankfully that was a long time ago. And I haven’t had one since, but yes, they are very rattling.
Rarely have I ever had dreams of LO. Considering how she never leaves my thoughts, one might think I dream of her often but not infact so..
My most recent was a dream of her and I riding in her car on some open road that felt like we were in a desert. I remember the windows were down and her long blonde hair was blowing in almost slow motion. I kept looking at her and no words were being spoken. She just kept driving and smiling and all I was doing was sitting next to her there and admiring. Being in love with being next to her. Then I woke up..
The crazy part to this is the very next night, I actually saw LO at shift change, walking to her car, to get her beverage. It was a little breezy out, so her hair was blowing around. Kind of like it was in my dream.. I just sat in my car in my car, in utter amazement..
Almost eerie. 😵💫🤯
Keep in mind I hadn’t really seen her in months either. So this real-life moment kinda sticks with me now..
Brother
Your description of LO in the dream and reality reminded me of this …
“every time I see you, all the rays of the sun
are streaming through the waves of your hair
and every star the sky is taking aim at your eyes
like a spotlight”
Making Love Out of Nothing At All — Air Supply
https://youtu.be/EA0sk1pykbk?si=KyXoPh3gqg_pxwam
Adam – interesting you say that. I’m not sure I ever see faces in dreams. Even the dream about LO, it was more knowing he was there and how it made me feel that meant I knew it was him, rather than anything visual. I’d never really thought about that before.
MJ – your dream, and your description of her the next day, sounds so romantic it gives me butterflies, even though I don’t fancy women. Us limerents really are screwed.
“every time I see you, all the rays of the sun
are streaming through the waves of your hair
and every star the sky is taking aim at your eyes
like a spotlight”
Adam
That pretty much sums her up. Hair that flows like a waterfall. Eyes that sparkle and I swear I can see almost to eternity.. 🥰
Thanks also for that transport back to middle school. Swear I haven’t heard that one in ages.. 😆
“Us limerents really are screwed.”
Cloud
Think it has to do with that altered state of mind. She just happens to press all the right buttons.
Screwed is right.. 😆
Hi Mila, onyx, imho.
Yes, I was just mentioning something similar to onyx – that I now try to take the initiative and talk to LO, whenever I get the chance, while staying within boundaries.
When I am not able to do this, well, I just try and shrug it off. I do feel down for a bit, but the feeling always passes, so its not too bad.
As you said, this whole situation is hard, and causes quite a turmoil – wanting to talk vs. needing to stay away. Hope it gets better for us all!
Hi abcd, onyx, mila, yes to all of this.
I guess it’s about trying to take control of the situation as much as possible, but not be too fixed on it all playing out exactly as expected.
I found that the infrequency of meetings was putting too much pressure on them, and heightens whatever emotions are going on with me.
Doing things to regulate the nervous system before hand would probably help with thinking more clearly and acting more calmly.
Which I haven’t done! On the last interaction my nervous energy was off the scale. My heart may be irrevocably slightly damaged.
Hi imho, anyx and mila.
“I guess it’s about trying to take control of the situation as much as possible, but not be too fixed on it all playing out exactly as expected”.
Yes, exactly. I have figured that if I plan what I am going to do in the upcoming interaction, I have a much better handle on things. Of course, as you said, the interaction may not pan out as we plan – in that case, I just move on.
“On the last interaction my nervous energy was off the scale. My heart may be irrevocably slightly damaged”.
I can surely relate to the nervous energy part. I am wishing that there comes a time when I can have a conversation with LO in a normal baseline way, but I am not sure if that will ever happen. Till then, I go with maximum NC, and just handle the occasional interaction as best as I can. The interactions themselves are becoming sparse now, so that works well for me.
IMHO, ABCD, Mila,
This conversation is helpful.
I do not think trying to plan the conversation in advance would work for me. I suspect it might cause me to lose a lot of time to rumination. I am also never quite sure if LO is going to be present. The unpredictability isn’t great but the only alternative would be to contact LO in advance and ask.
It does sound, however, like a good idea to take the initiative, go and say hello, and then move on. That would be more in line with my normal behaviour… albeit with the risk that I start leaking emotions all over the place!
The uncertainty of meetings has been a driver for my limerence, I think. All the extra time wondering whether I’ll see him or not, when most meetings are chance rather than planned.
Planning what to say is impossible, and doing so is just another form of rumination. One thing that has attracted me to him is that even in a few short minutes the conversation will flow in all sorts of unexpected directions.
Mainly I just need to concentrate on my other interests, leaving less room in my mind for thoughts of him.
Hi Onyx,
I didn’t mean planning the conversation, that would be a cause for even more vexing rumination and anxiety for sure!
I just meant what you said, going over, saying hello , taking whatever response you get and moving away after a few minutes of talk- taking control of your own behavior, so to say, so that you can feel better afterwards. I would take the risk of leaking emotions for the gain of not feeling this stupid remorse afterwards, but that’s me.
To have found rare “special” feeling about LO, but not other is the (residual) limerencing brain talking.
Finding a version of oneself that dees not involve (x)LO, one NEEDS to completely detach oneself from (x)Lo physically first, mentally second, living in the painful “darkness” — starvation/desperation with NO hope, for at least 3-12 months. True friendship/relationship WILL survive such a mental/spiritual fasting.
To physically save another is chivalrous/heroic, to emotionally support another is kind/compassionate, to psychologically rescue another is egotistical/arrogant wearing the mask of “love”/limerence.
So youtube started throwing songs from Grease in my feed, and I’m like wtf did I do to piss you off that you gotta put music from this movie in my feed? It’s bad enough I actually watched the movie. But then I watched Dirty Dancing with my wife and will forever regret that. And it had a great soundtrack. But then they played this song that I forgot was from Grease. And I thought “if this ain’t a limerence song.”
Hopelessly Devoted To You — Oliva Newton-John
https://youtu.be/r-3NvDp28U4?si=XShvy32mgp_J46Nu
To Adam:
I am surprised you dislike “Grease” so much.
I will counter with my own limerence song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIs5StN8J-0&list=RDhIs5StN8J-0&start_radio=1
Maybe get the taste of ONJ out of your head.
Oooh, I love Obsession. And Grease. (Though I hate the ending.)
To Serial:
May I ask why you hate the ending?
I have my own reasons for hating the transformation of the Sandy character.
But I still like the music. If I don’t over-think the plot, it’s a fun movie.
I hate how Sandy basically changes herself to get a guy—her dress, her values, even ruins her health by starting to smoke—even though he liked her as she was when they first fell for each other. But the rest of the movie is a lot of fun, and I love how the songs take me back to early childhood.
I agree 100%. I have the same issues with the movie.
Although it’s a fun movie if you don’t over-think it.
Just wondering if you ever saw the Dead Sandy theory? You might find it interesting.
To Hamlet:
That theory is too disturbing for me.
I never put much stock in it.
I ran into LO last night and he gave me some leftovers from the dinner he had just cooked. OMG. I thought I was limerent for his house, and Dr. Tom said no (I don’t even want to know what the look on his face was when he said that), now I think I must be limerent for his cooking.
Last winter he gave me leftovers from a prime rib dinner. He gave me the whole cow, practically, and it was every bit as good as what I have had in fancy restaurants.
Salivating again, literally and figuratively.
Angling for that Relapse Limmy Award.
I hate myself.
Back to reading and meditating. Grateful for this website.
Miss Norma
I am glad I was not tripping on something when I watched that music video 🙂 That was a trippy (probably 80’s) music video. But I liked the song. The “I am a possession” line kinda felt like a personal attack. lol
LO, when I worked with her, would always look after me like that. I remember one time she asked me what I wanted for lunch from [restaurant name] that everyone was ordering from for lunch and I told her I wasn’t hungry. Mind you this is in the middle of summer when it was 90-100 degrees outside. She came back from picking up the food and she comes out to the warehouse and tells me lunch is here. I said “But I didn’t order anything for myself.” She said “Well I did. Come inside and eat your lunch. You need to keep up your strength.” To which I had no other choice than to say “Yes ma’am.”
It is always nice when people look after you (especially women, at least for me) and top that off with limerence. And by gum, it made me weak in the knees. She also often, when I wasn’t working the AC office would bring me a water bottle from the fridge to make sure I stay hydrated. And she would scold me, pointing finger and serious look on her face, when she’d see me smoking too much to her liking. Thankfully, both my wife and myself have been smoke free for almost two years now. I’d love to tell her that if I ever see her again.
To Adam:
Thank you for your nice reply. I appreciate your kindness. There is something intoxicating about being offered food by someone attractive.
I hesitated to write what I wrote above for fear of being lambasted.
I already know I am the slowest person here.
No need to rub it in.
Miss Norma
You know I am always here for you. I don’t think anyone would give you grief for what you post here, unless it was some troll in passing, like it did with Miss Lovisa. Which was my second offense. I don’t know how many strikes I can get though but it is what it is. I got your back.
I see Dr. L has dropped a new YT video “Don’t Fight It”. Oh, happy day! I haven’t watched it yet, but I will when I get around to it… 🙂
Being something of a nerd, I really enjoy analysing the stats on Dr. L’s YT videos. I think of his videos as songs released off of an album. Despite the best intentions of person/s involved, not all the videos perform at the same level. Some videos instantly sail right to the top of the charts. Other videos sink without a trace. Some videos are slow-burning productions that may not be hits initially, but draw in large audiences over time, becoming what I like to think of as “cult classics”.
An example of a video that sailed right to the top of the charts is “What Makes Them Addictive?” This is currently Dr. L’s most-viewed video, and I think its success was an easy one to predict. It was always going to be a number one, because few subjects so vividly capture the public imagination.
An example of a slow-burning success story/sleeper hit is “Embarrassing Limerence Mistakes”. This video currently sits at a very respectable number five spot in Dr. L’s discography. People may have not been initially wowed by the subject matter, but the video and its content has steadily gained a loyal following over time. 😜
Examples of videos that sink without a trace are those videos of Dr. L’s that don’t garner massive numbers, despite being up for months. This doesn’t reflect badly on Dr. L. All the videos I have seen have been well-delivered. All the content I have consumed has been of a consistently high quality. The fact of the matter is: some topics simply pique people’s curiosity in a way other topics don’t.
I am tickled pink that the video “Seven Signs of Limerence” is currently Dr. L’s fourth most-popular video, despite being out only a month. The numbers are rising closer and closer to the 100k mark and my prediction is this video will eventually eclipse the success of “Five Phases of Limerence” (Dr. L’s current third most-popular video, a video that has been out for a solid 10 months).
Speaking of YouTube videos and limerence, someone asked this question on one of Fenna’s older videos: “How many people actually use the term limerence?” Wanna know Fenna’s lightning-quick and deliciously apt reply? “Not enough.” Hahaha! I love Fenna’s interesting way of looking at the world. She always makes me laugh, despite covering some rather serious subject matter. 🙂
For me, personally, the jury is still out on whether limerence is (a) early-stage romantic love or (b) a destructive habit. I think there is no firm answer to this question that is consistently true all the time for all people and in all circumstances. I think the answer to this question is heavily dependent on circumstances, and most critically on whether or not limerent and LO can form a healthy bond – as Dr. L himself so astutely points out.
I heard something great the other day on a podcast put out by MarriageHelper. Dr. Joe Beam said limerence isn’t an inherently bad thing. It’s fine if it’s between two people who are single. No, it’s not essential for pair-bonding. And yes, productivity will temporarily decline. However, mutual limerence between two single people who are both free to act isn’t really that big of a deal.
According to Dr. Beam, limerence does become a huge issue, however, when people are already in relationships, because limerence has the potential to destroy/damage existing relationships. Limerence can also be a huge problem for two single people, if the two single people are incompatible/can’t bond.
I appreciate Dr. Beam’s very straightforward way of laying everything out.
Dr. L,
I’m glad you changed the title of your latest video from “Don’t Fight It” to “Retrain Your Brain”. Whew! Spotted that blooper of a heading in the nick of time. You very narrowly dodged a bullet there, my good man. 😆😆😆
I know what you were aiming for with the “Don’t Fight It” title. However, the “Don’t Fight It” title could have been read in all the least helpful ways by a few limerence-prone desperadoes. I don’t think you’re in the business of nourishing the delusions of desperadoes. “Retrain Your Brain” is much more en pointe, much more on-brand, much more consistent with the message of purposeful-living-driven-by-thoughtful-self-awareness that you’ve always espoused. 👍
Don’t worry. You’re in good company. You’re not the only Youtuber who had to rechristen a video recently. I noticed Fenna altered the title of her latest video from “Partner In Love…” to “Your Partner Loves…”, perhaps out of a similar desire to avoid misunderstandings. Although, in Fenna’s case, I think both titles were/are fitting. Both titles make perfect sense (to me anyway). I think she just wanted to go with the most tactful option for her primary audience. 🙂
It’s like 38F and I got to go to the store so I get dressed and put on my coat Momma bought me and there’s dudes in here in shorts. Rant incoming ….
Wear some pants white American males! No one wants to see your hairy legs. They’re an eyesore. Oh and white dudes (cause they’re the only ones that wear them) knock off the sandles! You ain’t a woman, no one wants to see your ugly feet. Thank you for working hard all your life and that’s why your feet, like mine, could cameo on The Thing. Besides it’s 38F outside! We are not women. Our legs and feet are not attractive. r/kinda kidding but not
To Adam:
You make me laugh. It’s warmer where I live, and many men wear shorts year-round.
LO wears shorts ALL the time, but his legs are better than mine.
Once in a summer in a shrine (shoes off) visit with some students, I saw xLO’s feet. I was a kind of “shocked” 🫢 by the crooked and a bit dirty toe nails, which I would never tolerate on my own feet. 😀
His SO was not doing a good job….
To Miss Snow:
Whatever it takes to get turned off!
I remember years ago, I was attracted to a handsome client of my boss.
Then I saw where he had taken a half-drunk cup of coffee and stubbed four cigarette butts out into it.
Ugh. I never found him attractive again.
Miss Norma,
I could not imagine twine my feet with those “crooked” ones- it would pinch my skin. 😏
There is no need for both men and women to do professional pedicures, but daily foot lotion before bed or after shower is not excessive care for anyone. 😀
I think Miss Norma benefits from the fact her LO is homosexual (I hope I am remembering this right) who tend to take better care of themselves than heterosexual guys. I dress to the 9’s (in my humble opinion). But cutting my toenails. Hence why I wear shoes and not sandles
To Adam:
Yes, LO is gay, but he is not a particularly good dresser.
I mean, he has beautiful dress clothes, but he has no place to wear them now.
He used to have to dress up for work, and he has tons of high end suits and ties.
Since he now has his own design business, he doesn’t need to dress up. He is house-poor, and wears the same outdated casual clothes over and over. He wears t-shirts with holes in them that I would have thrown out years ago.
So there’s this weird contrast between this beautiful house, which looks like a museum, and then LO in his old clothes, some of which I would love to sneak into the trash.
His fingernails and toenails are good, though. And he is lucky enough to have a gorgeous full head of hair, combined with being tall and thin. So he can get away with some goofy clothes.
This is comedian Pete Davidson’s opinion about men’s feet. 🙂
“You should never see a guy’s feet, never. Because they’re horrible! They’re just terrible to look at and nobody wants to see them and you should always cover them up. You gotta just always keep socks on, even at the beach. Unless you go in the water.”
Why cannot some straight men courageously break their stereotypical images in self-hygiene? Most of modern male jobs are no longer conducted in farming, hunting, lumbering, or constructing… Is it too much just to put on some lotion and trim nails?
I just came back from that cutie-joe’s store and for the first time saw a tall (above 6’1”), slender, beautiful gay man (not transgender, 30s-40s) totally dressed in a woman’s semi-transparent silky purple shirt tucked in a long flowery, dark reddish, silky skirt and a pair of black, medium high heels (square, bulky kind), no makeups. Unlike the flowery LEG and his bf, this man still looks manly with strong sensible, confident femininity.
At first, I was not used to such a sight in an ordinary grocery store (out of annul gay parade); but my eyes could not turn away from him, from his high, emotionally intelligent look with a slight joyful smile; so much more pleasant than LEG and his bf. Within 5 minutes, he made all other straight people (me included) and our clothes look grayish and shabby…. I couldn’t help 😊…
My INFP Sis. might sigh, “what a waste for us ladies!” 🤭
Miss Norma if I had your LO’s wealth this would be my choice of dress. Unfortunately reality is not the case.
https://imgur.com/a/5NUQ7wx
Dame Marcia
I 100% agree with him.
That’s such a beautiful rosy color and gorgeous outfit!
But the man is too masculine for my taste, I’d never go out with him, no matter what!
To Adam:
LO would look fabulous in that outfit.
Unfortunately, he seems to prefer beige.
He is definitely not a flamboyant dresser.
To Miss Snow:
I wish I could have seen that man. He sounds so interesting!
Miss Norma,
Besides his big, round eyes, slightly curly short hair (above his ears), and clean shave, what struck me about this womanly-dressed young man is his confidence, genuine warmth and smile with a sincere appreciation of the life at the moment. He looked so relaxed, by himself.
By compassion, LEG and his bf at the second hand shop look pale, anxious, serious, just too young and inexperience.
My town is infinitely fascinating, you can pump into literally every kind of human beings walking on the earth… and no one raises his/her eyebrows….unless you’re a tourist.
To Miss Snow:
That man sounds delightful.
What a waste for the ladies, indeed.
To Adam:
You just reminded me of something that happened a couple of years ago. I didn’t know LO very well then. I ordered something through the mail, and they inexplicably included a pair of beige men’s socks from Nordstrom as a thank-you for my order.
Since I have no man to give socks to, I immediately thought of LO.
But I thought that maybe LO only shops at higher-end places? I was worried that Nordstrom wasn’t good enough for him.
I was nervous. So I went over to LO’s and explained that I had received these socks, and I wondered if he would want them? I said, “Is Nordstrom fancy enough for you, Mr. Fancy Man?” He actually said with a straight face, “Oh, I’m not fancy.”
He was thrilled with the socks. I mean, he acted like a little kid at Christmas. He said, “Oh, I don’t have any this color and I need them.” They were BEIGE, for heaven’s sake.
So I am thinking, how come this rich guy doesn’t have any socks???
He’s wearing Prada shoes, FFS.
It took me a long long time to realize that LO is in way over his head moneywise with his house and spends ZERO on clothes. Hence he wears the same old clothes over and over, and apparently has no beige socks.
The reason he has Prada shoes is because they are left over from when he had more money.
He obviously has a huge weakness for expensive houses, as evidenced by his recent debacle with a failed home purchase that cost him $100,000.
Adam,
Unlike you, I live in the world of People of Walmart where both men and women can be equally…. 🤔interesting looking.
The way LO dresses on the weekend, he could almost qualify for the People of Wal-Mart calendar.
Assuming they have a calendar.
You’d never know he was a high-end interior designer.
Miss Snow
Because I’m not a woman. I love feminine clothes … for my wife. We’ve bought shoes, clothes, nail paint together. But I have no interest in anything else than dressing masculine, because I’m a man.
Sir 🎩 🥃 ,
You just displayed my most favorite rosy color on the earth, and I’d buy you the outfit if you were my SO — I swear!
I know you’d look fabulous in the outfit, and I’d go out with you and Mamma for our planned drinks in town. Myself wants to wear this outfit like George Sand (played by Juliette Binoche) did in the movie, Children of the Century”, but I need to lose 5 kg (to 48 kg) for it. Some women look great in men’s clothing as well!
I have dress, jacket, shoes, table clothes, couch, benches in crimson red, but none as gorgeous like the color and style of this outfit! 😋 thank you for showing it, it’s eye candy 🍭 🫂!
To Miss Snow:
When you mentioned George Sand, I flashed back to a movie called “Impromptu,” about Frederic Chopin and George Sand, played by Hugh Grant and Judy Davis.
It was the first time I saw Hugh Grant and I was blown away by his gorgeousness. I barely noticed Judy Davis, unfortunately.
Probably from around 1990.
Miss Norma,
I saw “Impromptu” a couple of times (any books or movies to do with George Sand) and liked Hugh Grant very much, more than Colin Firth who has a rounder face. Hugh Grant is so English!
Judy Davis is a disappointment to play George Sand, she’s a bit prickly. Watch “Children of Century” played by Juliette Binoche – a much better George Sand, but I don’t like de Musse’s actor much.
Oh, now I’m interested. I didn’t know there were movies about George Sand. I’ve read a few of her books and know she was an interesting person. 🙂
Unfortunately, I can’t seem to find anywhere to watch Children of the Century without buying it. Though the Hugh Grant movie looks like fun.
To Serial:
I can’t remember anything about the movie, but I do remember that I enjoyed it.
It was the first time I had ever seen Hugh Grant, this was before “Four Weddings and a Funeral,” and I was completely dazzled by his appearance.
Which isn’t really fair, because that takes away from the value of the movie overall.
I saw Impromptu last night. Yes, it was fun, and I loved how the kids were off having their own adventures unnoticed. I just wonder how much it resembles real life. So last night I bought a Sand collection and her autobiography, which is apparently 1000 pages!
SL 🦇 📕,
Yes, I have that autobiography but never got enough time to read it. Between Proust’s “In Search of Lost Time” and Sand’s self-description, I’d always choose the former first. I read a couple of her books, very touched.
I have CD of “Children of the Century”, and watched it whenever I felt down… Binoche is great! There was another movie version (beautiful cinema-photography) on Netflix or Tubi talking about negative sides of Sand (with her two children present in the movie), who was supposed to ruined Chopin’s life in the movie.
Adam,
“But I have no interest in anything else than dressing masculine, because I’m a man.”
I approve. 🙂
Miss Snow and I have very different taste. That being said, there are some feminine men who can be very sexy. But it would be a side dish you have at special meals like Thanksgiving. Like sweet potato casserole. Not a main dish you have often.
Adam (or Marcia),
Are you talking to yourself? Or this is Marcia? Someone is drinking on this Saturday night…
I like femininity on men, I also like femininity on women, I think the whole would could and should be more feminized!
But looking feminine doesn’t mean one, man or woman, is sissy. No matter with what makeup or clothing, I can never look like a man but I’m more masculine than many men I’ve met, in terms of mental strength and endurance.
I could take a nap 😴 before my gfs come out of a public bathroom — they’re as fast as a 🐌…
Snow,
“Are you talking to yourself? Or this is Marcia? Someone is drinking on this Saturday night…”
Lol. I noticed I did that. And, no, no alcohol! 🙂
“I like femininity on men, I also like femininity on women, I think the whole would could and should be more feminized!”
I totally disagree. We need more masculinity. I mean in the romantic/sexual part of life. Not as a rule, out in the world, at school or work, etc.
Miss Marcia,
Yes, we’re so different. I wish they’re more feminine in romance. Strong masculine men, no matter how handsome, are just not agreeable with glimmer, I can’t pin down specific reasons….
Perhaps my COO was too macho, and I felt more repressed or oppressed by those macho looking/rough guys? As platonic friends, they’re fine.
Snow,
” I wish they’re more feminine in romance. Strong masculine men, no matter how handsome, are just not agreeable with glimmer, I can’t pin down specific reasons….”
I’m the opposite. It’s the differences that create the frisson. I don’t want to date myself. 🙂
“Perhaps my COO was too macho, and I felt more repressed or oppressed by those macho looking/rough guys? As platonic friends, they’re fine.”
Again, I’m the opposite. For friendship, more feminine men are better. They’re easier to connect with emotionally. But the dynamic lacks what’s necessary to heat up the lower half. 🙂
👒 Marcia,
“But the dynamic lacks what’s necessary to heat up the lower half. 🙂”
I think that’s our fundamental difference — I truly care about heating up the higher half, which is much more challenging and fascinating to sustain… 😊. That’s why “wolf-sexy” men would not get my attention, admiration, and forget adoration!
There is no another “self” out of there, everyone is unique and a complete “incomplete-self”. I love myself much better than before LE, than my whole previous life… which I can sufficiently share with a BP, in addition to what I already have…
Snow,
“I truly care about heating up the higher half, which is much more challenging and fascinating to sustain… 😊. ”
Well, for long term … yes, you need the mental and emotional component.
“That’s why “wolf-sexy” men would not get my attention, admiration, and forget adoration!”
I like that. If I like the guy. It’s sexy. It’s primal. They see what they want and they go after it. They own their sexual feelings.
👒 Marcia,
“It’s sexy. It’s primal. They see what they want and they go after it. They own their sexual feelings.”
Anything primal does not come across as “sexy” or appealing to me. I don’t like hunting men, and don’t want to become their pray. They’re terribly boring…
I avoid them at the cost of spending my whole life as an urban “hermit.” I don’t want to anything of a short term, the trend of Instant Gratification never worked and will work for me!
We have gone through many rounds on this topic; there would be no gaining or losing points. 🫂
Snow,
“We have gone through many rounds on this topic; there would be no gaining or losing points. “🫂
I’m not trying to win … but you are the one who brought the topic up. 🙂
👒 👠,
How are you doing with getting over LO-Lite? Running out online dating apps?
It’s the holiday season, which would intensify some limerents’ unrequited longing…
Snow,
“How are you doing with getting over LO-Lite?”
Still bothers me. Purposeful living distracts but it doesn’t get rid of it.
“Running out online dating apps?”
I deleted the profile.
“It’s the holiday season, which would intensify some limerents’ unrequited longing…”
I’m not a big holiday person so that won’t be an issue.
Miss Marcia,
“Still bothers me. Purposeful living distracts but it doesn’t get rid of it.”
I began to think that only a new, more powerful LO/Limmy, in whatever 🎭, can help us, single “limerence-prone desperadoes” with cptsd and mental OCD, finally push a residual LO out of our system, are you inclined to think so?
“I deleted the profile.”
I think you’d have more peace, less anxiety overall.
“I’m not a big holiday person so that won’t be an issue. “
I was a big holiday kid and during my x-marriage. Later, I had to adopt the quieter holiday time after Dad left… without him, holiday was quite different…
But as a “lone wolf”, I don’t feel lonely most of the time; nowadays even less….
Snow,
“I began to think that only a new, more powerful LO/Limmy, in whatever 🎭, can help us, single “limerence-prone desperadoes” with cptsd and mental OCD, finally push a residual LO out of our system, are you inclined to think so?”
I can only speak for myself, but no. I got over the last big LO. Hadn’t been limerent in years before LO-lite showed up.
“I think you’d have more peace, less anxiety overall.”
It wasn’t really causing me anxiety so much as I didn’t have any interest in it.
“I was a big holiday kid and during my x-marriage. Later, I had to adopt the quieter holiday time after Dad left… without him, holiday was quite different…”
So you miss your dad on the holidays?
“But as a “lone wolf”, I don’t feel lonely most of the time; nowadays even less….”
I do but not so much for company. I have people I can hang out with. But for people who know me well.
Miss Marcia,
“I can only speak for myself, but no. I got over the last big LO. Hadn’t been limerent in years before LO-lite showed up.”
Right, I forgot the time lap. Perhaps it was just me, before I dramatically got rid of this mysterious longing from childhood. Without that longing I no longer feel unreasonable anxious or melancholy and can appreciate/enjoy more of ordinary life.
“So you miss your dad on the holidays?”
Not particularly. I miss more of the old-fashioned holidays during my childhood, when kids could roam around freely, playing games with neighbor kids day and night in a tight community.
“I do but not so much for company. I have people I can hang out with. But for people who know me well.:’’
The same here, I’m very unwilling to spend my limited time and energy with so-so acquaintance, and only desire to be with those who know me well or who are able to inspire my imagination and creativity….
I’ll have 5 weeks off during the winter break, but bits of private tutoring.
Snow,
“Not particularly. I miss more of the old-fashioned holidays during my childhood, when kids could roam around freely, playing games with neighbor kids day and night in a tight community.”
It doesn’t seem like people do that anymore — let their kids out of the house to play with the kids in the neighborhood. Not without scheduling it.
“and only desire to be with those who know me well or who are able to inspire my imagination and creativity….”
I meant I don’t really have anyone in my life who knows me well. Not really.
“I’ll have 5 weeks off during the winter break, but bits of private tutoring.”
What will you do with your time off?
Femininity belongs to women. Not men. I get weak knees for tomgirls. Like LO. And Momma. But that’s different. She steals my dress shirt, slacks, tie, and leather suspenders, fine. (In fact please do cause well …). But her clothes are hers. And I ain’t …
I’m still not used to men totally dressed up in women’s clothes or have makeup on, unless they’re already physical transgenders.
But the man of yesterday is “delightful” as Norma puts it. It’s his air — so confident yet at ease, intelligent & knowledgeable yet warm & sincere, tasteful and not sissy at all. He couldn’t care less what anyone around him thinks of him, unlike many uptight/cynical locals. I didn’t have glimmer for him like with Cutie Joe; it took me 3-5 minutes (longer than usual) to “adopt” his dressing… 😀
I still like women in dresses like in those period dramas, except that would prohibit them from walking fast, which is what I habitually do in pants/jeans. I don’t have patience of traditional women and am still learning to slow down, my mind tends to race all over the galaxy… 😊
To Miss Snow:
Did you speak to the delightful man? Did he say anything to you?
I think I would like to adopt him as my Spirit Animal.
Miss Norma,
can you ask you a small personal question: how tall are you? You don’t have to answer me.
I am 5 foot 3 and weigh 110 pounds.
Norma,
My intuition is right again! 😀 (like with Anna’s hair length and LaR’s hair color, and Marcia’s height…)
Your answer is what I intuitively sensed ever since you got online! That’s my normal size (going shorter), as well….
🫂
To Miss Snow:
That is some spooky good intuition you have!
Miss Norma, do you have short straight hair? (I can’t sense its color).
To Miss Snow:
I have my hair cut off in a buzz cut, like a man.
So I guess you could say it’s straight. There is only 1/4 inch.
My hair is brown, turning gray, and I have green eyes.
When I had longer hair, it was wavy.
Norma,
My intuition on your hair length was wrong, I “thought” it’s straight down to ears.
Now chatting with you about those realistic stuff, guess what happened? I just had a long, vivid dream about you! It’s so vivid that I believed it’s true after half-waking up in the dark and carried “the reality” back to sleep until now —
I ran out of my old apartment (for real) for a quick errand and walked fast. Along the parking meters on the sidewalk (just like in reality), I saw two old ladies, a sort of warbling and paused on one parking meter.
You were wearing a beiges trench coat and short straight hair down to your ears. I threw you a look and immediately recognized you’re Norma (match my mental image of you, looking like my last therapist). You seemed to regionalize me, too. I confirmed, “Norma?” You said, “it’s [Snow].” Then you introduced me to your lady friend, she’s a head taller and I have no idea (recollection) who she resembled in my reality.
You two were going to downtown for an event somewhere, and there were several black taxis (unrealistic, always Yellow or Pale Green in my town) parked parallel at the end of the block. We walked together and you two were about to hopping on one of the black cars. I said, “Now, we KNOW each other, do you want to leave your home phone number or email address, so I can chat with you more easily and we can get together sometimes for tea?” You said yes. (cell phone didn’t exist yet when I lived in that apartment).
So you two pulled back to the parking meter. I didn’t have a pen or piece of paper with me, so your lady friend began searching her handbag with her shaking hands.
Meanwhile I chatted with you, “now we know each other, we could travel together during my vacation time.” Your lady friend checked me from head to toe and asked, “are you able to travel alone?” She suspected that I was not single or had a family. So I assured her that I could travel alone whenever I wanted. Then, you said you’d like to go Ireland; I said I’d consider it during my next spring break.
Your lady friend looked a bit suspicious and displeased. Then he told us she didn’t have anything to write on, either. You said you two lived nearby, maybe we could go to your place to get paper and a pencil.
So we walked uptown even further than my old apartment. We came to a very quiet, park-lane like area, and many unattended trees and wide plants lined up along a long dirt path (I could not see the end of it), with only one simple mud house standing by. I was puzzled that there was such a “deserted” nature place in my crowded uptown area! I asked “ how big is your property”. The tall lady said, “we have four acres.” My eyes were almost bulging and I was wandering how you two could take care of such a huge property. No one was around.
Then without ever going inside the house and getting a pencil and paper, I was a sort of waking up (around 3:30am) but still with you standing next to me in your trench coat. I thought it was real… 😴
Believe or not, without completely waking up, I rolled back to sleep again, until just now — finally realized it was a dream! 💭
To Miss Snow:
That is quite a dream. I hope I was kindly toward you in the dream.
I also hope that I had clothes on under the trench coat.
Miss Norma,
It seemed that you were very pleased to have bumped into and recognized me, so much that the tall lady was a bit of jealous, as I detected (she didn’t want me to take you on a vacation to Ireland).
Couldn’t tell what was under your trench coat, but you both had shaking hands leaning on the parking meter poll… I was taller than you in the dream, and you were kind of standing closer to me ever since I ran into you both…you cancelled the event you were about to go and instead showed me your huge, uncared property.
Gee, all details were vivid…. Except our neighborhood in your house’s direction does not have such a “wild” residential property, except a small park with a pond, a waterfall, tons of turtles, cranes, and some pieces of art installations.
It ended when you were standing next to my right arm as if my 🐥. …
😃
To Miss Snow:
That is such an interesting dream. I wonder why both of us had shaking hands? That’s got to have some significance.
I have a million health problems, but that is not one of them.
Miss Norma,
We can’t take dreams literally, maybe metaphysically.
In the dream, both you were in your 80s. Perhaps you will be living with a LF in your 80s.
Now my mental image of you is crystallized, your description won’t change it until I see a realistic picture of you.
To Miss Snow:
I can’t picture myself in my eighties, but I guess I will get there soon enough.
Turning 73 tomorrow.
Very happy birthday, Miss Norma, turning to 13!
To Miss Snow:
No, I am not turning 13, I am turning 12 again, as I do every year.
Miss Norma,
No, I didn’t speak or dare to speak to the “delightful” man, but sideway (I didn’t want to be caught and thought I was staring at him) admired him, not sure if he ever spotted the very common and shy me, who could not help smile while being so amused by his outfit and his aura.
At the end of five minutes of noticing him, I was sampling the chocolate fudge at a small table, and he was walking towards my direction within 2-3 meters. I had to back up fast, in case he caught my stealthy amusement at his confident yet relaxing walking pasture…. 😊
On the way walking home and waiting at the traffic light, a young, tall, slender couple (in their early 30s) dressed up for a party stood next to me. I threw a quick glance at the young man, and immediately saw some insecurity and subtle anxiety in his handsome face (could not spot his lady’s front face because he blocked my view); she’s also tall with a very attractive neck wearing a simple and elegant necklace, with its “diamond” like pendant on its back.
Still, the delightful man with the woman outfit and smiling face is much more attractive than this “dashing”, masculine stallion. I’d like to befriend with the former, who would make you feel at ease…
I’m not gonna dig my heels in this dirt on this one. Lord knows I don’t need to give Dr L any reasons to send me to the corner again; but a woman wearing “masculine” clothes I can deal. Very few women can pull it off though. Like pixie cuts or nose rings. Though ladies wearing suspenders 😏 But not the reverse with men. I’m not gonna judge you or anything. But just don’t be a Marvin Gay Sr over it.
I can’t bear the sight of masculine looking men in women’s clothes or anything feminine; but yesterday it was the first time that a naturally feminine looking man in women’s clothes came into my sight… As I said, it took more 5 minutes to “adopt” it.
🎩 🥃 , I can’t imagine that your beautiful rosy outfit would look good/fitting in this “delightful” man, but the slim man standing next to me at the traffic light, who was in a stylish, striped suit.
Adam,
” Very few women can pull it off though. Like pixie cuts or nose rings. Though ladies wearing suspenders 😏 But not the reverse with men. ”
You do realize that there is a long history of androgyny in popular music. We can all the way back to Elvis Presley on that one. The man wore pink suits and eyeliner. And the women were SCREAMING. (Of course his palpable sexual energy was a big part of that.) Now, can a man pull off “dressing feminine” (for lack of a better term) in real life? I don’t know. But I do think it taps into something almost transgressive.
Dame Marcia
I’m still not keen on you calling me out all the time. I’m a Prince and David Bowie fan and while my mind as a heterosexual male goes wtf? I can still go “hey you be you” but a gal in blue jeans, a cowgirl hat or a gal (possibly the gal that sang in Heart) with a pixie cut in leather? …..
Adam,
“I’m still not keen on you calling me out all the time. ”
I wasn’t trying to call you out. I agree with you. I prefer men to dress and look like men. But there’s a contradiction because I also find both the rock stars you mentioned very sexy. It’s the fact that straight men don’t get it that kind of intrigues me. They’re turning everything you’re supposed to be as a man on its head … and still walking away with a bunch of women.
“Very few women can pull it off though. Like pixie cuts or nose rings.”
Adam
LO can pull it off. 😆 Easily.. She has a very small nose ring.. I find it very attractive. Along with the very small palm tree and heart, tatted on her wrist. Nothing is ever over-done. It always seems to be just the right amount of perfect on her. I love it.🥰
Oh $#!+.. There I go ruminating again.. 😂
MJ out..
Brother
My wife had a friend that use to live around us some years ago that a nose stud and some tattoos and momma would be like “yeah yeah I know you like it” She totally pulled it off. But as a rule for me, piercings other than earrings and tattoos are not a turn on for me. But momma won’t get a nose piercing for me even though I’d like it on her. 😏
I’m loving this conversation! I’d love to see Adam in his Western formal wear. And I’d love to see the feminine guy who Snow saw yesterday. And Norma’s LO dressed like a slob in his flamboyant surroundings.
To Miss Cloud:
LO would look pitiful next to Adam and Miss Snow’s Delightful Man.
He cleans up beautifully, but most of the time he looks like one of Hamlet’s Wal-Mart people.
Aww Miss Norma I would look pitiful next to such a demure woman like you. Clothes can only do so much. You have ethereal beauty long lady.
To Adam:
Flattery will get you everywhere.
I am hardly demure, though.
Today I am wearing a Hawaiian shirt with pink, purple and electric blue skulls and skeletons.
Matisse shoes, and Mona Lisa socks.
LO commented on my “Halloween get-up,” and I said, “No, this is not for Halloween. These are just my regular clothes.”
The first time I went to visit LO, I tried to tone down the crazy and wore a nice blouse and slacks. He answers the door wearing a polo shirt, derpy shorts and even derpier shoes. I thought, “Surely he will excuse himself to go put on some decent clothes.” But nope.
He invited me to sit down but I was too scared. I said, “Which surfaces are safe to sit on?” He said, “All of them are safe to sit on.” I didn’t believe him and refused to sit until he did. I figured the same couch was safe enough.
I have since gotten used to him being a People of Wal-Mart poster boy, but am still cautious where I sit. I am too afraid to touch anything.
Your style sounds wonderful.
To Miss Cloud:
I think a number of people like it; I don’t actually know anyone who has the nerve to dress the same.
I feel like the only woman here but; after 8 years happily married I was visited during a dream by a boss I worked for many years ago, and who I have not thought about at all since leaving the job. It was so unexpected and vivid that I woke feeling like I’d suddenly slipped into an alternate reality. The dream experience has recurred several times since in differwnt ways. Thinking about explanations draws a blank. My question is: I’ve read about the phases of limerance. Right now it feels quite benign and also quite lovely! But is there a way to stop this before progressing through the phases? I’m married with kids and this person is nowhere near my world so there’s no risk I’ll ever act on it but I’m still confused, and worried. What the **** is actually happening to me?!
To Shelley:
You can find plenty of resources here to help you. Even if you can’t act on your feelings, the strain on your mental health and your marriage should not be underestimated.
I don’t know why you’d think you’re the only woman here; I think at least half of us are women?
Hi Norma, maybe I just read the first few comments who were just from men and it’s the impression I got! Either way I’m definitely reassured to be among half rather than the minority 🙂
To Shelley:
I hope you will feel welcome.
Shelley, how strange! I’m not quite sure from what you describe, how much the dream has entered your waking life? Did you have a crush on this boss at the time that you knew him? When he appeared in your dream, was it in a romantic way? And are you having intrusive thoughts about him when you’re awake, or is it just the dreams you’re worried about?
I was already in a steady relationship when I started my job there. A few times I sensed an attraction from him but it was not reciprocated on my part, we actually didn’t part on the best of terms when he overlooked me for a promotion that I should’ve got. I came off my antidepressants about a year ago and that’s when these wild dreams started and I thought at the time it was all wrapped up with that. After the first few dreams I looked him up on LinkedIn and find myself thinking about him; meanwhile my mental health has taken a turn for the worst. In the dream we are always at work and hes always asking me to meet him, sometimes i wake up and sometimes the dream continues where I do meet him and the steamy ending ensues. I have two little kids and can’t deny life is very hard at times. I have pondered whether these dreams are actually a mirror on me, whereby in the dreams I’m young, confident, capable. Perhaps the unfinished business of being overlooked for the promotion has caused all of this. I’m very academic and professional and glean a lot of self esteem from being good at the job. I really don’t know!
My limmerence went into the background when I went on Cymbalta for anxiety. Years later it came back with a vengeance when I went off Cymbalta. No dreams for me though. Going back on Cymbalta had no effect on the LE.
Shelley, this is really interesting! So if I understand it right, you weren’t attracted to him when you actually knew him, but you sensed he might be attracted to you. Fast forward many years, and you’ve suddenly started being attracted to him and thinking about him, even though you’ve not seen him. So the Limerent Episode clearly can’t be anything to do with him, and is to do with your mental health and possibly the side effects of coming off medication. Clearly No Contact won’t be a cure, since you’re already out of contact with him. Your story is very different from others here.
You’ve talked about the dreams, but how much are thoughts of him disturbing your waking hours?
I have just booked with a psychologist to try and work it out. I have noticed that I reach towards the memory of those dreams and feelings whenever I’m in the middle of a hard moment – which at the moment is quite often – because it is somehow comforting. I am still in contact with other people I worked with there at the time and some of them still work there, and occasionally post work related things on LinkedIn or FB, which I spend time scouring in case he’s in any of them. Its is completely absurd and non-sensical and the net result is just a feeling of sadness and possibly self-loathing more for the fact that I no longer look like the person I am in these dreams, post two kids and flash forward 10 years, I long to be the person I was then. And sometimes I want that life more than the one I have currently. It’s all super sad really.
Hi Shelley,
It’s not sad at all. It’s just being human. It just feels sad. But it will get better. I’m glad you’re seeing someone. Another similarity is that I came to see the LO/LE were a stress relief for my marriage.
Marcia,
Moving this to the coffeehouse as we’ve drifted from the addiction theme.
“Fourth level: We made space in our lives for each other.”
Yes, that is huge for me too. Same goes for your example of them remembering you have a medical appointment and offering to pick you up.
“There’s a big difference between what I call a “catch-up friend” and a close friend.”
With long-time friends, a catch-up friendship is usually fine and all I need. I have oId friends I see twice a year, we live our lives in between and all still feels normal when we meet. To maintain a closer friendship with someone who doesn’t live nearby anymore is a big job.
“What do you need that the other person intuits?”
I have told you before that I am more of a listener than a talker (you said it was true for you too). I bring some of it on myself, but this means friendships can slip into patterns of people leaning on me as an ‘ear’. But then they are less good at being an ear themselves, or even seeing that I might need an ear sometimes.
I can also be guarded around new people (I’m made like it – not a choice), but I can be drawn out of that and be much more extrovert if given the right encouragement. It’s not something I want to ask for or to be the subject of a discussion. It’s just something that has to happen or not happen. Figuring out how is not that hard. If someone wants me as a friend enough, they will invest a bit of time in that and make the friendship more even, not slip into that speaker-listener pattern forever.
“But … when we had that talk I realized how myopic he is. He assumed everyone experienced romantic attraction/interest in the same way.”
I’m gonna push this one back at you a bit. He did what you always tell the single male LwLers to do. He didn’t assume – he asked you and (by what you say) he then dealt with the ‘no’ and only needed it to be said once.
Now – maybe this is me, maybe it is a male tendency … but with every glimmer I’ve had, part of the spark that lights the glimmer is a feeling that the other person feels some of it too. Sometimes I’ve been right about that, sometimes wrong, sometimes have never found out. But the idea was always there. Maybe how that guy looked at it with you wasn’t that unusual?
LaR,
“With long-time friends, a catch-up friendship is usually fine and all I need. I have oId friends I see twice a year, we live our lives in between and all still feels normal when we meet. ”
It depends on the situation. If we were close and now we’re catch-up …I can lose interest. And sometimes it can really sting. To be downgraded like that (i.e. my male friend who got the GF).
“To maintain a closer friendship with someone who doesn’t live nearby anymore is a big job.”
Pick up the phone. Are you out of site, out of mind? 🙂
“I have told you before that I am more of a listener than a talker (you said it was true for you too).”
I actually can be quite chatty and friendly but I keep stuff about myself pretty close to the chest. People mistake me for an extrovert sometimes, but I’m not.
“I can also be guarded around new people (I’m made like it – not a choice), but I can be drawn out of that and be much more extrovert if given the right encouragement. ”
So do you like people who are extroverted? I do. I like someone to draw the fun, loud part of my personality out.
“If someone wants me as a friend enough, they will invest a bit of time in that and make the friendship more even, not slip into that speaker-listener pattern forever.
I understand. And I have to admit … it’s sometimes a test I do with new people. When is this person ever going to ask me a question? If they don’t or if they ask me the same questions repeatedly … that’s not good. They’re not listening.
“I’m gonna push this one back at you a bit. He did what you always tell the single male LwLers to do. He didn’t assume – he asked you and (by what you say) he then dealt with the ‘no’ and only needed it to be said once.”
Nope. He did the OPPOSITE of what I said to do. We started off as friends. Hung out as friends. For weeks. THEN he finally said something about his feelings. I have advised that guys ask women out right away. Make it clear it’s a date. Make their romantic/sexual interest known.
But, yes, he did accept my no and we have been able to move forward. Which is no small feat, I know.
“part of the spark that lights the glimmer is a feeling that the other person feels some of it too. Sometimes I’ve been right about that, sometimes wrong, sometimes have never found out. But the idea was always there. Maybe how that guy looked at it with you wasn’t that unusual?”
Well, that’s where the differences occurred. For him, I believe he has to feel an emotional and mental connection before “feelings” develop. So maybe the feelings weren’t there when we first became friends. It doesn’t work that way for me. I have to be physically attracted first. And that’s something that’s determined in the first few minutes of meeting someone. So, yes, we were getting closer, but I saw it as a friendship. He assumed I was like him. Which kind of baffles me. Because I think I experience attraction like most men. And to be clear … I don’t find him unappealing. I just don’t have any real fire to get up on him.
Marcia,
“It depends on the situation. If we were close and now we’re catch-up …I can lose interest”
Yes. For what I said to work, it needs to be a slower and more natural drift to ‘catch-up’, not a sudden switch flip. And the friendship is a long-term one alreaady.
“Pick up the phone. Are you out of site, out of mind? ”
Nope, just male 🙂
“If they don’t or if they ask me the same questions repeatedly … that’s not good. They’re not listening.”
Or if they do that thing where they ask a question and then seconds later, start trying to answer it themselves?! (on your behalf, or with their answer to it)
“Nope. He did the OPPOSITE of what I said to do. We started off as friends …”
How long had you been friends before the conversation? (See next reply)
“So maybe the feelings weren’t there when we first became friends.”
So if he’s one of those people where feelings grow out of friendship, that could be why he wasn’t more direct at first. I’ve had loads of examples of it happening to me – a woman’s ‘hotness’ grows because we emotionally connected. I get you are the opposite way (I simplify here, but you’ll find them ‘hot or not’ early on, which won’t change). It’s another ‘two tribes’ situation, but a different one to whether we are limerent-tribe or not.
LaR,
“For what I said to work, it needs to be a slower and more natural drift to ‘catch-up’, not a sudden switch flip. And the friendship is a long-term one already.”
I could see that. Or the friendship was always at the “catch-up” level and it just stays there. But I have experienced sudden or close to sudden flips. Usually when an SO comes into the picture. And it’s very jarring. That being said … I’ve come to accept adult friendship for what it is. It ebbs and flows. Like the tide. That’s life. To expect anything else … lies disappointment. I’m under no illusion that my male friend may drift away if he starts dating someone. So I don’t totally buy your story about not being able to drift from your LO because you want to be a good friend. Sorry. 🙂 People do it all the time.
“Nope, just male 🙂”
I mean, to be honest, that’s usually what’s happened when I’ve moved. The friendships in the former city tank. Again, it’s what friendship is. It’s based on proximity and a shared phase of life. When that changes for one person, so does the friendship.
“Or if they do that thing where they ask a question and then seconds later, start trying to answer it themselves?! (on your behalf, or with their answer to it)”
That’s because they wanted to tell you their answer! I also listen for how often they suck the conversation back to themselves. Some of that is fine and we all do it. But if almost every time what I say prompts them to talk about themselves (as opposed to hearing me and asking me something about what I’m discussing) … that’s a bad sign.
“How long had you been friends before the conversation? (See next reply)”
Five or six weeks ?
“I’ve had loads of examples of it happening to me – a woman’s ‘hotness’ grows because we emotionally connected. ”
Ok. But you wrote it “grows.” So you noticed it initially ? I’m saying I don’t befriend guys I find hot. I did a quick tally in my head. I’ve had about 8 male friends since high school. (Not all at the same time. At different phases of life.) By “friend” I mean someone I am communicating with and/or hanging out with one-on-one outside of the place we met. So not just a work friend or school friend or group friend. Six of them at some point expressed interest. The seventh said he was trying to let me know he was interested — he was way too subtle — after I came onto him. (The only time I ever hooked up with a guy friend.) It’s hard to buy that all 7 of those guys were the kind in which interest grew.
Marcia,
“So I don’t totally buy your story about not being able to drift from your LO ..”
Oh we’re back on her are we??! 🙂 I think this deserves a Limmy award soon for most debated ‘friendship’ on LwL. I should start running a book between you and Mila on whether this ends well (Mila says she sees it as the best hope of all LwL stories of a friendship surviving an LE, you don’t buy it). Winner gets a box of pencils.
“…because you want to be a good friend”
And nor should you totally buy it 🙂 I’m going to be wordy again now, but that’s to try and give a full view of things. There are three parts to why I don’t drift more – a friend part, a work part and a ‘because I just don’t want to’ part. I do acknowledge that last part, but it doesn’t invalidate the other two.
The ‘don’t want to be a bad friend’ part needs information far beyond what I’ll put in a public forum, about LO and the history of the friendship (I have said all I am willing to on that). This said – of course life would go on for LO if I withdrew. It would be very arrogant to think any other way. Occasionally other posters have suggested I’d be doing her a favour if I did withdraw. But I know 100% it isn’t something she wants, because she actively encourages the friendship, doing far more than I do to keep it going.
Work wise we have a decade and more of co-working very closely. I don’t mean in the sort of ‘occasional chats at the watercooler’ sense, I mean we share a location, and the work we’re paid to do overlaps lots. The work happens quicker and better if we complete stuff in collaboration.
I know what you’ll say back to that – I can pull back on everything else and just talk to her about work. Sure, but think of yourself on the other end if I did that like a switch flip. It’s not like I can easily move to another department or location, and as far as my job goes, I don’t want to. So wouldn’t it look suspicious to her if I flipped a switch? Wouldn’t it set other tongues wagging in the office? Remember here Marcia, I am your classic limerent – have never breathed a word about the ‘feelings’ to her or other co-workers.
It isn’t out there as a reason for pulling back.
The ‘because I just don’t want to drift’ part speaks for itself so I won’t witter on. You might not agree with it but you’ll probably get it.
So I think it is all three things combined.
“But you wrote it “grows.” So you noticed it initially ?”
I mean look, you are a good language detective 🔍🥇
“I’m saying I don’t befriend guys I find hot.”
I’m not that rigid about it. I’ll share a couple of my examples. My LO3 (previous one) and I disclosed within about 2 months, a bit like your friend recently, and looking back I think we sort of skipped that ‘friendship’ stage and always knew it was headed for danger (she told me in as many words that she did).
I also let myself get into a work-based friendship with another woman who I found hot initially. I knew what I was doing. I can’t pin down why, but the danger passed within the first 3 or 4 months, we friendzoned each other, and we have stayed friends for many years since. I crushed on her but wasn’t limerent, and I had no ‘feelings’ left after those first few months. The friendship feels authentic. She is nowadays one of those ‘if you need a lift to an appointment’ type friends.
I saw the danger much more and earlier with those two than I did with LO. My awareness of the danger with LO came many years down the line. I did find her looks and personality attractive from the start, but not at a level where I thought about doing anything about it.
“It’s hard to buy that all 7 of those guys were the kind in which interest grew”
It’s a fair point – not impossible, but unlikely. So what’s your hunch about them then? That the friendships were always aimed at something else, from these 7 men’s point of view?
LaR,
“Oh we’re back on her are we??! 🙂 I think this deserves a Limmy award soon for most debated ‘friendship’ on LwL.”
I don’t think we need to brag about being nominated for a Limmy, do we? 🙂 It’s like being nominated for a Razzie. No one actually goes to the ceremony. 🙂
” I should start running a book between you and Mila on whether this ends well (Mila says she sees it as the best hope of all LwL stories of a friendship surviving an LE, you don’t buy it). ”
I mean, you’re still on here talking about it, aren’t you? 🙂 (I enjoy talking to you. I’m not saying I don’t. Please don’t take that the wrong way.)
“Winner gets a box of pencils.”
Give those to MJ. He likes to do his coloring books. ADULT coloring books. 🙂
“The ‘don’t want to be a bad friend’ part needs information far beyond what I’ll put in a public forum, about LO and the history of the friendship (I have said all I am willing to on that). ”
She’s just a friend. Friendship has no commitment to it like a serious romantic relationship. Or a sense of obligation like a family member. Friendships change all the time. Have you ever had a friend get married or have a baby? That you feel this strong sense of obligation … I’ll just let that sit. 🙂
“Occasionally other posters have suggested I’d be doing her a favour if I did withdraw. But I know 100% it isn’t something she wants, because she actively encourages the friendship, doing far more than I do to keep it going.”
I’m not saying it wouldn’t bother her, but I can’t tell you how many times it’s happened to me. And as I wrote … sometimes almost overnight. I’d put money down it’s happened to her. And I’m guessing she has other friends and other people in her support system.
“Work wise we have a decade and more of co-working very closely.”
You can be around someone — be standing there, be physically there — but checked out. 🙂
“Sure, but think of yourself on the other end if I did that like a switch flip.”
Yeah, it sucked. It really sucked. But my new take on friendship is to not expect much. People have their own lives. They have their own stuff going on. Shows like “Friends” are totally unrealistic.
“So wouldn’t it look suspicious to her if I flipped a switch? ”
We’ve talked about this. 🙂 That all of this could have been avoided if you were just honest and told her why you needed to pull back. You say you’re close. Could your friendship not have had room in it for an honest conversation? And on a very, very selfish level … you may have prompted her to tell you how she feels. Which you say you wanted at some point. 🙂
This is what I would ask of all limerents. Yes, I include myself in that. Do we like the drama? Because we’re creating a lot of it. 🙂 At least in our heads. Do we always have to be fixated on someone? And of course the obvious next question: Why?
“Wouldn’t it set other tongues wagging in the office? ”
Honestly … who cares?
“Remember here Marcia, I am your classic limerent – have never breathed a word about the ‘feelings’ to her or other co-workers.”
Ha! I’m a limerent, too, and I blabbed. Not to many people but to a few. Is there any topic a limerent loves to talk about more than their LO? Maybe 3. All dude friends, of course. Ha! I just thought of another dude friend to add to the list. 🙂 I’m starting to be of the Samantha mindset on Sex and the City. Women are to befriend; men are to have sex with (thought she puts it more crassly :)). I don’t know that men and women can be friends.
“I’m not that rigid about it. I’ll share a couple of my examples. ”
But shouldn’t you? You have an SO. Shouldn’t you avoid befriending women you find attractive and are crushing on?
I’ll just put it out there … it sounds like a workaround. A way for “technically I’m not stepping out” dabbleage.
I’m not writing this to scold you. Just to point out some stuff. You can yell at me. 🙂 I am well aware of all the crap I did wrong.
“I can’t pin down why”
Because you found her appealing.
This is why I wouldn’t be comfortable with an SO having opposite-sex friends. I wouldn’t believe there wasn’t at least one he was crushing on. Or maybe keeping on the side burner as a stand by. Now, the side burner placement could be subconscious.
“It’s a fair point – not impossible, but unlikely. So what’s your hunch about them then? That the friendships were always aimed at something else, from these 7 men’s point of view?”
If I were to guess … yes, there was always some interest there. To what extent, I don’t know. And maybe some knew I didn’t feel the same way or weren’t sure and thought they’d hover for a while until I changed my mind ?
Marcia, you have a firm vote from me…
Hi LaR and Marcia,
butting in here, mainly because I cannot find LaRs post to me😂🙈
but also because of friendship discussions, at the moment that’s on my mind a bit (not only because of XLO friendship, mainly generally, who do you call a friend etc).
„I’m not saying it wouldn’t bother her, but I can’t tell you how many times it’s happened to me. And as I wrote … sometimes almost overnight. I’d put money down it’s happened to her.“
I just think- you didn’t like that much, Marcia, did you? So why should LaR behave like that to her. Just because everyone is doing it doesn’t mean it’s a decent thing to do.
I also get LaRs reasons for wanting to keep a friendly work environment at least. If he goes suddenly cool on her that might provoke a string of unpleasant consequences, from her being suddenly awkward to work with to colleagues asking questions, taking sides, whatever, and that on top of all mental turmoil would be maybe worse than trying to cope with it just inside yourself. You see I still bet on you LaR😂
But maybe we are too similar and Marcia, being differently disposed, can see everything much more clearly from the outside, who knows.
I mean, Marcia has a point in hinting that you take this friendship as too special because of limerence. You feel that you are special to her and she depends on your friendship , so that you’ve got an oligarion to her, but that might very well still just seem so in the light of the limerent view.
Me, I got to the point that I think I have been special to XLO, maybe I still am, but well, it doesn’t seem to work out any more, at least for me, so it would be probably better for him to look for another friend to fill that role for him. I don’t really think I‘m irreplaceable for him. I might be wrong there, I don’t know, but I’m past the point to think I have to do something about it.
Still, I appreciate and respect LaRs way of trying to be a good person and still think, if he manages to pull that off, it’s admirable.
What the hell is an oligarion? I meant obligation.
Mila,
“I just think- you didn’t like that much, Marcia, did you? So why should LaR behave like that to her. Just because everyone is doing it doesn’t mean it’s a decent thing to do.”
I think I answered all of these questions in my post to LaR. In my case, with my former friendships, there weren’t feelings involved. My former friends just got distracted by something else. Yes, it sucks, but it happens. It’s life. Did you go to college? Maybe the summer before college you hung out a lot with your high school friends, but then you came back from your first semester of college for Christmas break and when you got together with your high school friends you noticed the friendships felt different. You were different. They were different. Your lives weren’t intersecting as much. That’s just one example. Friendships shift all the time. But in LaR’s case, he’s limerent. And he has an SO. Limerence is, in essence, falling in love with someone else. (At least that’s what it feels like.)
“If he goes suddenly cool on her that might provoke a string of unpleasant consequences, from her being suddenly awkward to work with to colleagues asking questions, taking sides, whatever, and that on top of all mental turmoil would be maybe worse than trying to cope with it just inside yourself. You see I still bet on you LaR😂”
Well, actually, I recommended just having an honest conversation with her about what he’s feeling. So she understands why he’s pulling back. Barring that, pulling back slowly. From what LaR has written, his LO is something of an iconoclast. Doesn’t get involved in office politics. It doesn’t sound like she’d run to other colleagues and/or involve them and cause issues. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be awkward but it’s doable. Have you never been friends with someone at work and the friendship tanked and you still had to work together? I remember becoming pretty good work friends with a female co-worker at one job. One day she misunderstood something I said and really blew up at me. I wasn’t expecting it and I saw a very volatile side of her I hadn’t seen before — to the point I was worried what she might say and do. After that, I left her alone and didn’t say anything about what happened to anyone. I didn’t want to poke the bear. She would barely speak to me. It was very awkward. Eventually (I don’t remember how long it took) she apologized and I accepted it and was pleasant and professional. But after that, I kept my distance. I no longer trusted her. It is possible to maintain cordiality if you have to.
“I mean, Marcia has a point in hinting that you take this friendship as too special because of limerence.”
Yes. Not really hinting. 🙂
“You feel that you are special to her and she depends on your friendship , so that you’ve got an obligation to her, but that might very well still just seem so in the light of the limerent view.”
Yes
In your case, Mila, you’ve written many posts about your frustration with your LO. Are your expectations of him based on limerence? More than likely, yes. I don’t think he’ll ever be the friend that you want him to be. So you either accept what he’s offering as a friend or you back away. I don’t see any other options. I don’t write that flippantly. I realize it’s much easier for me to say that as I’m not plunk in the middle of it. It’s very common of limerents. I’ve certainly done it. We twist ourselves into pretzels to have our LOs in our lives. Come up with all kinds of mental gymnastics to tell ourselves we’re ok and the limerence is under control. It’s usually not true.
Mila, Marcia,
I think there is truth in what both of you say.
Marcia, I’ll reply to more of your specific points when I’ve got more time. For now, I’ll pick up some main ones that Mila added to. Please know I understand that you are teasing me in places, not trying to scold me – I am not offended by anything you wrote. I too enjoy our conversations and getting your perspective.
If I conveyed it like ‘obligation’, then I got my tone wrong – it isn’t that. Maybe that reflects subconscious ‘storytelling’ by me, because it is easier to make it sound like obligation, than admit the plain truth – which is that LO isn’t actually someone I want to let go of. It isn’t out of *need’, but out of *want* that I don’t distance more. Obligation is a theme for me (we’ve talked about that before), but I don’t feel obligation to LO as a friend. Doing it is a choice I make, rightly or wrongly.
Mila, your points are also appreciated. A big insight is where you said there might be value in believing that I’m not that ‘special’ to LO (something others including Marcia have also said at times). I definitely know I am not as special as the limerent side of my brain would have hoped, or told me I was. I have seen it from a more removed (although yeah, still not totally removed) position for most of this year, if compared to last year. Sometimes it is like I am watching the interactions between LO and I, more than being as ‘in them’ as I was. I’m not saying there isn’t any lim-brain influence, but I can see underneath it more too.
For argument’s sake let’s suspend the idea that I’m in any way ‘special’. Let’s just assume I’m simply a normal co-worker and friend who she mildly enjoys having around. And let’s say that was true before I was limerent, during that time, and after the worst of the LE passed. And let’s assume that the limerent bit on top and any idea of specialness was/is created in my head. Then – if she mildly enjoys having me around, and I have squashed the limerence to a level that I can manage, what’s really the problem here? Apart from one spell in early summer where the LE briefly flared back up again, I haven’t really experienced discomfort. I haven’t written anything on here complaining about discomfort since about Easter. I have just talked about the issues that have cropped up in my head as I’ve tried to negotiate a new normal. But they don’t put me in distress like the 2023-24 lim-variant did.
[from Marcia]
“Could your friendship not have had room in it for an honest conversation? And on a very, very selfish level … you may have prompted her to tell you how she feels. Which you say you wanted at some point. 🙂”
This is a great question that hits at the eternal dilemma. Yes, I *do* feel the friendship had, and still has, room for that conversation to happen, and for us to work through it. I just don’t know that now, after all this time, it would be right. I don’t know what it achieves while all else remains equal. I still feel it is a conversation I’d like to have, and might have, one day. But only after we don’t work immediately together anymore, and in no anticipation of getting her to put her cards on the table either way – purely so I can be honest about what I felt.
LaR,
” Please know I understand that you are teasing me in places, not trying to scold me – I am not offended by anything you wrote. I too enjoy our conversations and getting your perspective.”
Good. I wasn’t trying to be a pain in the ass.
“It isn’t out of *need’, but out of *want* that I don’t distance more … Doing it is a choice I make, rightly or wrongly.”
Yes. We keep the LOs in our lives because we want to. So can we stop pretending it’s to “preserve the friendship” ? 🙂
“A big insight is where you said there might be value in believing that I’m not that ‘special’ to LO (something others including Marcia have also said at times). ”
Have I written that? I don’t know how your LO feels about your friendship. Or how she values friendship in general. Losing a close friend could really sting for her. Or maybe it wouldn’t. I don’t know.
“Apart from one spell in early summer where the LE briefly flared back up again, I haven’t really experienced discomfort. I haven’t written anything on here complaining about discomfort since about Easter. ”
I can only speak for myself … but even though my LE (for my last big LO) did diminish over time, while I was still occasionally bumping into him, it never totally went away. It still bothered me when he’d do the same song and dance of flirting with me and then walking away. I told myself I’d be ok if I saw him every now and then in an effort to go LC. I wasn’t. The LE didn’t end until I removed him completely from my life.
“This is a great question that hits at the eternal dilemma. Yes, I *do* feel the friendship had, and still has, room for that conversation to happen, and for us to work through it. I just don’t know that now, after all this time, it would be right.”
I agree in that there’s no point in bringing it up now. But you may want to ask yourself why you didn’t bring it up before. I’m going to put out a talking point here … you didn’t really want to know. Keeps the LE going. If there’s one thing a limerent lives for, it’s uncertainty. Is that not true?
Marcia,
you are in a roll here concerning providing of important insights.
First one:
„I don’t think he’ll ever be the friend that you want him to be. So you either accept what he’s offering as a friend or you back away. I don’t see any other options.“
Couldn’t agree more! I just cannot yet decide if it’s accepting or backing away.
You see, almost all of contact is now initiated by him, he‘s loyal or stubborn to keep this friendship, and I would actually prefer to be able to accept it as it is ,because isn’t it quite rare to have somebody being that faithful, even if his notion of friendship is different from mine.
But my negative reactions to some of his more negative traits are still there sometimes, so I‘m not quite there yet and the question is, will I ever be.
I think bewitched is right, I will just give it time and see. We are anyway at a big distance now and nothing is urgent, since I‘m not that bothered outside of LwL site or immediately after a rare phone call or similar.
Second, interesting topic:
„But you may want to ask yourself why you didn’t bring it up before. I’m going to put out a talking point here … you didn’t really want to know. Keeps the LE going. If there’s one thing a limerent lives for, it’s uncertainty. Is that not true?“
While I don’t think that’s the main reason for LaR or other people to not disclose (I think the main reason is this why Dr L also advised against it in many cases- that once it’s in the open, there is no control, all kind of consequences could follow that one hasn’t wanted or anticipated) I think there is certainly a grain of truth there! I remember a conversation with XLO where I suddenly got the feeling he might steer towards disclosure, and my knee- jerk reaction was to immediately change the topic. I didn’t really want it, I guess. On the surface I wanted it-or, even more complicated, on the surface I didn’t want it, being all correct and moral, on second layer I wanted it because every limerent craves reciprocation, and on the third I was scared of it. I guess (not entirely sure about motives).
LaR, I think time might be of importance in your case too. If you manage to uphold that equanimity about it that you claim, there might be some point at which you realize that a certain kind of special interest has vanished, or something else will develop like her getting an SO as the most likely scenario.
Ps I meant „on a roll“,
and also forgot to repeat that I still think LaR is the one limerent I can imagine to manage it, since he seems quite mature and thoughtful about it and the situation doesn’t seem near any escalation.
Mila,
“even if his notion of friendship is different from mine.”
This is another good point and something to add to the conversation about adult friendship. What a “friend” is can be defined so differently.
“But my negative reactions to some of his more negative traits are still there sometimes, so I‘m not quite there yet and the question is, will I ever be.”
Why do these traits bother you? Did they bother you before you became limerent? You’ve been friends for a while, right?
“While I don’t think that’s the main reason for LaR or other people to not disclose (I think the main reason is this why Dr L also advised against it in many cases- that once it’s in the open, there is no control, all kind of consequences could follow that one hasn’t wanted or anticipated) I think there is certainly a grain of truth there!”
I always thought this way of thinking was a little drama, tbh. That’s my opinion, you don’t have to agree, but what, exactly, will happen?
If anything, it may be a bad idea to disclose if you have an SO. Gets into ethically murky territory. But, to be totally frank, I don’t see a lot of partnered people bringing that up. Their focus in terms of disclosure is usually on the effect it will have on the LO.
„Why do these traits bother you? Did they bother you before you became limerent? You’ve been friends for a while, right?“
Yes, they bothered me sometimes, but rarely. It wasn’t that important back then somehow (although I remember a phase where I was truly annoyed by some of his traits and everything cooled for a while, but then it smoothed over at some point).
Of course limerent expectations played a big role in creating this annoyance at some of his behavior, but not only that. Because of limerence, contact ramped up and the friendship went up a level (from casual to more close- I think it was you described different levels of friendship recently?), and when limerence was fading I realized that he couldn’t be a friend on that level in the way I imagined friendship on that level.
Also, as I said, back in the past we had regular work contact where he displays his best sides (we work well together and have much in common there), once this fell away, his social differences came more into focus.
„If anything, it may be a bad idea to disclose if you have an SO. Gets into ethically murky territory. But, to be totally frank, I don’t see a lot of partnered people bringing that up. Their focus in terms of disclosure is usually on the effect it will have on the LO.“
Well, it might have the effect on LO that they tell their SO , or even your SO.. also, disclosing to LO without disclosing to SO is a step towards the cheating side- LO and you (universal you) know something that SO is unaware of. But disclosing to SO and LO is really inviting a bunch of consequences. It sounds so easy „just talk about it“, but it isn’t, because suddenly there are three or more persons who know and will each handle the information differently.
Cool – so I learned two new words today – one from each of you. ‘Iconoclast’ and ‘equanimity’. How very ‘serendipitous’ is that? 😀
You two have ramped the pace of this chat up way faster than I can reply. There is much I’d like to reply to, but please bear with me!
Yeah, to ramp it up even more, here I am again- I thought iconoclast was someone who rebels against old rules and stuff? Maybe not, it doesn’t seem to fit Marcia’s description. I have to google it.
Mila,
Yep, i read the meaning as that too. LO is a bit like that to be fair (rebels against rules and conventions) … and Marcia probably remembers me saying that.
Mila,
“Of course limerent expectations played a big role in creating this annoyance at some of his behavior, but not only that. Because of limerence, contact ramped up and the friendship went up a level (from casual to more close- I think it was you described different levels of friendship recently?), and when limerence was fading I realized that he couldn’t be a friend on that level in the way I imagined friendship on that level.”
Limerence definitely skews expectations. But a good question to ask yourself may be … why is this friendship so important? I’m guessing you have other friends. It totally sucks when a friendship tanks or isn’t as close as you hoped, but … you do seem to be hanging onto this one pretty tightly.
“Well, it might have the effect on LO that they tell their SO ”
It’s possible, but I don’t know how likely. Especially in LaR’s case in which they’re good friends. I had a married work friend — so not even a close friend — come onto once. And I never told anyone. Other than some close friends outside of work. What would have been the point?
“.. also, disclosing to LO without disclosing to SO is a step towards the cheating side- LO and you (universal you) know something that SO is unaware of. ”
I think hanging out with an LO and maintaining contact and actively seeking them out is ethically murky. If I had an SO and he told an LO he was backing away because of his feelings … that would be preferable to him maintaining the contact. If I had to pick one.
Mila,
“I thought iconoclast was someone who rebels against old rules and stuff? ”
That’s exactly what it means.
His LO doesn’t sound like she’d give two craps about the people at work. I mean that as a compliment.
Hi Marcia,
I hang onto this friend because he really seems more loyal and constant than most of my other friends. But maybe that’s an illusion too, it’s part of my wavering- is it simply his neurodivergent way to hang onto routines and to hate change (once in his life, always there, simply for his own comfort), not out of „real“ friendship to me? But then, that’s his way of real friendship as he cannot do more, and is a heartfelt as anybody else‘s?
You described yourself how friends are fickle and come and go. He‘s one who stays.
You know, I could also let him go now, actually. It would be a bit sad, but it would be ok for me, it would even be the easier way for me now. I just think I might be overreacting, I should just let things go on without a cut and see if he finally vanishes from my life or not (that’s the privilege I got opposed to LaR, since we are so far apart now).
„ I think hanging out with an LO and maintaining contact and actively seeking them out is ethically murky. If I had an SO and he told an LO he was backing away because of his feelings … that would be preferable to him maintaining the contact. If I had to pick one.“
I actually agree. Though that’s not LaRs case since he already reduced contact and doesn’t seek her out actively, he tries to get it down to a level of casual friendship, I don’t think it’s the same as a limeremt who seeks contact to get his dopamine kicks.
„ That’s exactly what it means.
His LO doesn’t sound like she’d give two craps about the people at work. I mean that as a compliment“
I see! I misunderstood, I thought you meant she doesn’t like to make waves at the office.
Thanks for clarifying!
Mila,
“You described yourself how friends are fickle and come and go. ”
If they don’t come and go, things shift and change. Or we’re in a lot of communication for a while and then they fall off the planet for weeks (maybe months).
“You know, I could also let him go now, actually. It would be a bit sad, but it would be ok for me, it would even be the easier way for me now.”
Idk. It sounds passive. Why does he get to make the decision?
“I actually agree. Though that’s not LaRs case since he already reduced contact and doesn’t seek her out actively, he tries to get it down to a level of casual friendship, I don’t think it’s the same as a limerent who seeks contact to get his dopamine kicks.”
I thought they were still friends. Maybe I was wrong. I wasn’t aware they were only work associates. Because that would be, to me, removing oneself from the LE. Pleasant and cordial at work but not texting/communicating outside of work, not going to each other for support/chats/laughs, not going to lunch, etc.
„ Idk. It sounds passive. Why does he get to make the decision?“
Because I’ve always been the active in this friendship and limerence. It’s me who befriended him, it’s me who ramped up contact, it’s me who reduced contact. I want to lean back and not to extend any energy any more. It’s ok, believe me, I’m not very vexed and bothered. It’s all going to be one way or the other, and it‘ll be ok either way, I guess.
Concerning LaR, I adopt the same attitude- I lean back😂and they will sort it out without the need to create a drama with disclosing etc., I guess. Or better, I hope.
Mila
“I lean back😂and they will sort it out without the need to create a drama with disclosing etc., I guess. ”
No, the moment for disclosure has passed. No need to even discuss it. Everybody on here took the MJ Class of Timing. 🙂
Marcia,
You are truly merciless!🙈
Has MJ still not asked his work friend for a coffee? Haven’t followed all posts.
I‘ll go to sleep now, wish you all a good night.
“Everybody on here took the MJ Class of Timing. 🙂”
https://youtu.be/uYQR5ktq7W0?si=c6Ly3VbNQkPqPkUk
“You can learn a lot from a Dummy”
MJ,
This is the issue. 🙂 Everything you reference is from the ’80s. “Get Down on It” — released in 1981. The crash test dummies campaign — started in 1985.
Lyrics from one of my personal favorite song. It’s from 1991, so it may be a little too contemporary for you. 🙂
“A woman on the radio talks about
Revolution when it’s already passed her by
Bob Dylan didn’t have this to sing about
You know it feels good to be alive
I was alive and I waited, waited
I was alive and I waited for this
Right here, right now, there is no other place I wanna be
Right here, right now, watching the world wake up from history”
“A woman on the radio talks about
Revolution when it’s already passed her by”
Marcia
Another song that had about a 5 minute shelf life for me. Never got in to the Jesus Jones, lol.. 😂 Tbh, I actually resent a lot of the 80s and the way I grew up. I didn’t have a tragic childhood but its one I’d rather forget. I have a picture book memory though, so everything seems to live on as if I’ve never entirely grown up. Which may be the reason I prefer Millennial and Gen Z Women. Can’t look in the mirror and tell myself I’m 54.
You on the other hand are going to give me crap for whatever path I choose, because you love teasing me about my shortfalls and lack of dating strategy. Then playfully reminding me, you and I are the same age.
Don’t get me wrong, I still think you and I could have a very interesting coffee date.. 😆
MJ,
“Another song that had about a 5 minute shelf life for me. ”
I like the message.
“Can’t look in the mirror and tell myself I’m 54.”
I could do it for you. 🙂
“Then playfully reminding me, you and I are the same age.”
Yes, but of the two of us … I’m aware of it. 🙂 And VERY aware it’s not exactly a bonus in the dating market.
“Don’t get me wrong, I still think you and I could have a very interesting coffee date.. 😆”
I agree, but by the time you ask me to go … I’ll be collecting Social Security. 🙂 Oh, I’m sorry … WE’LL be collecting social security. 🙂
Get down on it, get down on it … how you gonna do it if you really don’t wanna dance …. by standin’ on the wall 🙂
Ooh, Jesus Jones! I think my favorite song of theirs is relevant: https://youtu.be/wewIoLusKP8?si=3PGduMPuwtlCo2wQ
Marcia, MJ
“His LO doesn’t sound like she’d give two craps about the people at work. I mean that as a compliment.”
It’s like you’ve met her, Lady Marcia. She absolutely doesn’t give two craps, and she’d absolutely take that as a huge compliment.
“Everybody on here took the MJ Class of Timing.”
I don’t know how much this is too much of a British cultural reference for my LwL friends across the pond, but do you know this song? (7 Days by Craig David)
https://youtu.be/P5lmb5-tnM0?si=3Q9LsUIug2DqM5Et
I’d say it equates to the Marcia Class of Timing. Brother MJ, for those of us who were a bit more … er… slow and delicate … we used to joke about the “365 day technique”. I had a friend who it worked for.
“Don’t get me wrong, I still think you and I could have a very interesting coffee date.. ”
365 days are long gone for you two. JUST.GET.A.ROOM
LaR,
“It’s like you’ve met her, Lady Marcia. ”
I have. She’s me. 🙂
“I don’t know how much this is too much of a British cultural reference for my LwL friends across the pond, but do you know this song? (7 Days by Craig David)”
Sorry. I couldn’t get passed all the auto tune on this.
“Brother MJ, for those of us who were a bit more … er… slow and delicate … we used to joke about the “365 day technique”. I had a friend who it worked for.”
Because the other guys she was dating eventually fell away? Is it a Last Man Standing technique 🙂
“JUST.GET.A.ROOM”
That’d probably take forever, too. I got shows to watch. 🙂
Marcia,
“I have. She’s me.”
Well look, even if it doesn’t end well for me with LO (and yeah, I know all the reasons why it shouldn’t), then I have a lot of respect for that attitude of hers and yours. As I’m someone who is normally more compliant at work and has suffered for that at times, her influence has been nothing but a help to me.
“Sorry. I couldn’t get passed all the auto tune on this.”
Very well. I will make this easier. The key lyric is “met this girl on Monday, took her for a drink on Tuesday, we were making love by Wednesday, and on Thursday Friday and Saturday, we chilled on Sunday”. See, perfect right?
“Because the other guys she was dating eventually fell away? Is it a Last Man Standing technique”
That’s about the size of it
[“JUST.GET.A.ROOM”]
“That’d probably take forever, too. I got shows to watch.”
Brother MJ, that wasn’t a firm no. Step up!
LaR,
“Well look, even if it doesn’t end well for me with LO (and yeah, I know all the reasons why it shouldn’t), then I have a lot of respect for that attitude of hers and yours. As I’m someone who is normally more compliant at work and has suffered for that at times, her influence has been nothing but a help to me.”
I was teasing a bit. For the most part, I am pleasant. I don’t like to not get along and I find a tense work environment uncomfortable. HOWEVER … if someone is being an assclown to me … I’m not going out of my way to be nice.
“The key lyric is “met this girl on Monday, took her for a drink on Tuesday, we were making love by Wednesday, and on Thursday Friday and Saturday, we chilled on Sunday”. See, perfect right?”
Depends on what you want. For a hook up, sure. If you want to actually date and get to know each other, I’d slow it down. Definitely the sex part. Idk. A week or so after you meet you go out for the first date ? There’s going so fast you end up crashing the car. And then there’s going so slowly, new presidents are elected before things get off the ground. 🙂
[“Because the other guys she was dating eventually fell away? Is it a Last Man Standing technique”]
“That’s about the size of it”
Why would you want that? Do you really want to win by default ?
[“That’d probably take forever, too. I got shows to watch.”]
“Brother MJ, that wasn’t a firm no. Step up!”
It’s kind of like one of those offers between two best friends who are 20 years old and they agree that if they’re both still unmarried by 30 … well … why not? 🙂
Marcia,
“I don’t like to not get along and I find a tense work environment uncomfortable. HOWEVER … if someone is being an assclown to me … I’m not going out of my way to be nice.”
I’m very much like you there. Weirdly I talked to LO today about this very thing. She said she only gives it attitude when the person deserves it, not for the sake of it. I believe that. Keep giving it the sass when it is deserved.
“If you want to actually date and get to know each other, I’d slow it down. Definitely the sex part. Idk. A week or so after you meet you go out for the first date?”
I’ve always behaved more along lines of the MJ School.
“There’s going so fast you end up crashing the car. And then there’s going so slowly, new presidents are elected before things get off the ground”
😅 that’s funny but hard to unpick in reality. There is no manual. Each individual set of circumstances is so different.
“Why would you want that? Do you really want to win by default ?”
Not sure. Was talking on behalf of a friend (Not MJ, in this case).
“It’s kind of like one of those offers between two best friends who are 20 years old and they agree that if they’re both still unmarried by 30 … well … why not? ”
At risk of leaving myself wide open here … i had one of those when I was 30 and she was 20 … ‘if in ten years we haven’t…, then…’. Anyway – she got married before it got to be an issue.
Picking up on loose ends from where your conversation got too speedy for me in the week.
Marcia,
“I mean, you’re still on here talking about it, aren’t you?”
True that
[Winner gets a box of pencils.]
“Give those to MJ. He likes to do his coloring books. ADULT coloring books.”
Maybe they do a Sabrina colouring book for him?
“You can be around someone — be standing there, be physically there — but checked out. “
Yes, but doing that would create more weirdness than not doing it. Or at least that’s the story I tell myself! A slower withdrawal, not a switch flip, feels the best way.
“Shows like “Friends” are totally unrealistic.”
I wonder if Friends was always unrealistic, or was it more realistic of its time but hasn’t aged well? Or (don’t hate me) – we’ve aged. So Friends was showing me people in their 20s when I was in my teens – people closer to my age. And now when I watch it, I’m 30 years older. Do you think friendship (what can be expected from it) has changed a lot in those last 30 years or have we all just ‘matured’?
“I’m starting to be of the Samantha mindset on Sex and the City. Women are to befriend; men are to have sex with (thought she puts it more crassly :))”
Rarely have I seen anyone more blatant than Samantha. I’d run a mile!
“I don’t know that men and women can be friends.”
We differ on this as you know. I heard a wise person once say that men and women can’t truly be friends before they’ve worked through the possibility of ‘more’ between them. But I have two cast-iron exceptions to that in my own experience.
“You have an SO. Shouldn’t you avoid befriending women you find attractive and are crushing on?”
Yes – but people are flawed, and there is a difference between what people, including me, ‘should’ do (morally) and what they actually do.
[“what’s your hunch about them then? That the friendships were always aimed at something else, from these 7 men’s point of view?”]
“If I were to guess … yes, there was always some interest there. To what extent, I don’t know. And maybe some knew I didn’t feel the same way or weren’t sure and thought they’d hover for a while until I changed my mind?”
As we’ve said, people are different. For some, the friend and ‘interest’ baskets are more porous. So yeah, it could well have been that several of these guy ‘friends’ wrongly thought that by hovering, they could shift their status with you.
“We twist ourselves into pretzels to have our LOs in our lives”
I very much like that analogy.
[“It isn’t out of *need’, but out of *want* that I don’t distance more … Doing it is a choice I make, rightly or wrongly.”]
“Yes. We keep the LOs in our lives because we want to. So can we stop pretending it’s to “preserve the friendship” ?”
I get what you mean, but for me ‘keep the LO in my life’ and ‘preserve the friendship’ are kind of like two sides of the same coin. I can’t make the friendship and the LE into two separate entities in my head, as they got so meshed.
“I can only speak for myself … but even though my LE (for my last big LO) did diminish over time, while I was still occasionally bumping into him, it never totally went away. It still bothered me when he’d do the same song and dance of flirting with me and then walking away.”
I have a different challenge. It’s not ‘what would I do if I bump into her occasionally?’ but ‘in the certainty I will see her today, how do I make it OK (for myself) to go and do my work?’. When I tried to go stone-cold, that got very difficult very quickly. With the amount of exposure there is, that has given a lot of time already to figure out how to make it tick over best without making a horrible work environment.
“you may want to ask yourself why you didn’t bring it up [disclose to LO] before.”
Good question. I would give my two main reasons as 1. that it would have been very unfair to SO to put that out into the world (unless I also disclosed to SO – that’s another topic but I didn’t want to), 2. I realised that whatever response I got, there was no ‘win-win’ and it would have made life harder, at least short-term.
“I’m going to put out a talking point here … you didn’t really want to know. Keeps the LE going. If there’s one thing a limerent lives for, it’s uncertainty. Is that not true?”
Idk. I was absolutely overwhelmed at one stage with wanting to know – to resolve whether the elephant sat in the room was all of my own making, or if she helped to put it there. If it wasn’t for the two reasons above, I think I would have disclosed at that point. But your question has made me think. Was I kidding myself too? Idk. I have moved far past the point where I want to know now.
Mila,
“You see, almost all of contact is now initiated by him, he‘s loyal or stubborn to keep this friendship, and I would actually prefer to be able to accept it as it is ,because isn’t it quite rare to have somebody being that faithful, even if his notion of friendship is different from mine.”
I think you’ve got to be getting something from it (eventually) to keep it going. The loyalty / faithfulness is a good quality but reminds me of how a puppy would be. A puppy takes, and a puppy gives back. Make sure you get something back. Even if that’s not what your limerent brain told you you would get back.
“On the surface I wanted it-or, even more complicated, on the surface I didn’t want it, being all correct and moral, on second layer I wanted it because every limerent craves reciprocation, and on the third I was scared of it.”
That sums up how I was trying to reply to Marcia about it above. There were lots of bits of the brain battling with each other.
“I think time might be of importance in your case too. If you manage to uphold that equanimity about it that you claim, there might be some point at which you realize that a certain kind of special interest has vanished, or something else will develop like her getting an SO as the most likely scenario.”
Yes, the scenario where she gets an SO would probably be the quickest way that some form of bigger change could happen. As far as whether time has a calming effect anyway, yes I can see that as a possibility too, but it takes a lot of patience.
I remember another poster (could have been LiS) once saying that eventually an unacted-upon LE reaches a similar stage to a relationship after the honeymoon period. Limerence with a lot of exposure only holds for so long because we get to see the whole person. And I have noticed that effect at times. Everything just gets slowlymore ordinary / ‘LE volume turned down’.
“But disclosing to SO and LO is really inviting a bunch of consequences. It sounds so easy „just talk about it“, but it isn’t, because suddenly there are three or more persons who know and will each handle the information differently.”
You are moving it out of your head, into the world, and having a potentially big and unpredictable effect on two other people’s lives. It’s not to be taken lightly. A large part of me has been ‘I made this mess, so it is on me alone to get myself out of it’.
Both,
[Mila] “I actually agree. Though that’s not LaRs case since he already reduced contact and doesn’t seek her out actively, he tries to get it down to a level of casual friendship, I don’t think it’s the same as a limerent who seeks contact to get his dopamine kicks.”
[Marcia] “I thought they were still friends. Maybe I was wrong. I wasn’t aware they were only work associates. Because that would be, to me, removing oneself from the LE. Pleasant and cordial at work but not texting/communicating outside of work, not going to each other for support/chats/laughs, not going to lunch, etc.
Of those two, it leans more towards that we’re still friends. ‘Work associates’ isn’t a fair reflection. We had almost zero interaction outside of work for a few months, but since then we have started to do coffees, lunch etc again occasionally. That sort of social contact is about 20% of the level it once was, texting probably 10%, and the emotional depth of what we discuss has reduced. But none of that is down to zero. There you have it.
“I could do it for you. 🙂”
Marcia
I’ll bet you could, but you would soon be surprised how much I can still pass for mid to late 40s..
Beauty before age. 😆
“I’m aware of it. 🙂 And VERY aware it’s not exactly a bonus in the dating market.”
True, but I think this is still not as big of a deal for the Man as it is the Woman. Men can just get away with this more because Women are probably drawn to Fatherly types and Men who have their $#!+ together. (Not the place for you to insert a joke about me here) As long as both parties are cool with the arrangement, then why not? Good for my Man Bill Belichek. (Although Jordon does kinda look like she’s hanging out with Grandpa waaay too much, lol.. 😆) (I wonder if he’s old enough to be her Fathers Father.. 🤔)
It just doesn’t happen the same with Women all the time. I think the Man has to be into older Women for it to work and vice-versa.
(Like that Alexander Edwards Dude, who’s dating Cher)
LOs Dude is easily in his late 40s and possibly early 50s. For her Friend to ever have told me LO was way too young for me was a step out of line I thought. I’ve never believed it. I never will believe it. I’ll say the same thing about LF. Would it have been the most perfect arrangement? Probably not, but its crazy how all my limerent fantasies always looked so different. I think we’d all have been just fine..
“Don’t get me wrong, I still think you and I could have a very interesting coffee date.. 😆”
I agree, but by the time you ask me to go … I’ll be collecting Social Security. 🙂 Oh, I’m sorry … WE’LL be collecting social security. 🙂”
Ok Great One, I have to admit you had me rofl and lmfaoooo 🤣🤣 with that one. I completely stepped on a landmine for you to word it like that. Thing is too you’re probably correct. I am a dawdler and since you’re my age, you won’t be first priority.
Kinda like when I had to decide if I wanted to pursue the 41 year old at work or go after LF.. See how that worked out? I’m still cleaning the egg off my face.. 😆
“Get down on it, get down on it … how you gonna do it if you really don’t wanna dance …. by standin’ on the wall 🙂”
Yeah yeah, I like that but shut it off already. Let’s put something else on.
I like this vibe a little better today..
Something for you Disco Queen.. (But the 2 ladies are for me 😂)
https://youtube.com/shorts/2jyXoiGMtqE?si=HaGFZeoXapKanqV2
(And yes she rules because she’s wearing a Ford hat. 😆)
MJ,
I can’t go back and forth with you on this anymore.
If you want to date younger women, get on a dating site and go for it. I don’t write that sarcastically. If that’s what you want, that’s what you should do. Put yourself out there and see how it goes.
LaR,
“Maybe they do a Sabrina colouring book for him?”
I meant porn. I thought that was clear. Thus, I used the word “adult.” 🙂
“A slower withdrawal, not a switch flip, feels the best way.”
But haven’t you been debating doing this for the entirety of your time on here? Is that 2 or 3 years now ? I don’t know the exact time frame, so correct me if I’m wrong.
“I wonder if Friends was always unrealistic, or was it more realistic of its time but hasn’t aged well? ”
I think it’s realistic when they show starts out and the characters are in their early to mid-20s ? They’re all living near each other and hanging out and being a daily (weekly?) presence in each others’ lives. But doesn’t the show last 10 years? So by then they’re in their early to mid-30s ? By then, it’s not realistic that they’d be all up in each others’ business. Not after relationships and break-ups and marriages and divorces and kids and job transfers … at least a couple of them would have moved away. And they’d all be doing their own thing. If they all got together once a year … that might even be a stretch. One of two of the five would probably cancel.
“Rarely have I seen anyone more blatant than Samantha.”
I actually like all four female characters. They bring different aspects, different perspectives to the show.
“I’d run a mile!”
I’m shocked that she’s not your type of gal. 🙂 Tbh, I would love to be her. To have sex like a man. Enjoy it for what it is and move on.
“I heard a wise person once say that men and women can’t truly be friends before they’ve worked through the possibility of ‘more’ between them. ”
But why would you even want to bother “working through” stuff just to get to a friendship? It’s too much work.
“Yes – but people are flawed, and there is a difference between what people, including me, ‘should’ do (morally) and what they actually do.”
Very true. It just seems like having a friend of the opposite-sex while having an SO is a way to have something stable at home while still experiencing the thrills and chills of something new. Or the drama of it. IMO, pick one. You can’t have both.
“So yeah, it could well have been that several of these guy ‘friends’ wrongly thought that by hovering, they could shift their status with you.”
But don’t men do that, too. Put women in boxes? “Not interested,” “A little bit of fun,” “Relationship” ? For me, it’s “would do” or “wouldn’t do.” I think you can slow things down to get to know the other person before you get super invested/have sex. To see if there’s more there than just the initial “shazam.” But for me, he would need to start out in the “would do” box.
“When I tried to go stone-cold, that got very difficult very quickly. With the amount of exposure there is, that has given a lot of time already to figure out how to make it tick over best without making a horrible work environment.”
But wouldn’t you say that … knowing you’re a limerent and that you also meld the friendship/relationship boundaries… you probably should stay away from opposite-sex friendships?
“1. that it would have been very unfair to SO to put that out into the world (unless I also disclosed to SO – that’s another topic but I didn’t want to)”
I guess I don’t understand this. There are all these lines people put up in their mind. “Yeah, I did that … but I didn’t do this.” To me, it’s all greyage. The limerent becomes limerent. (And you can tell you when you have feelings or a very strong attraction. I don’t buy the argument that “the limerence snuck up on me.”) Either the limerent is partnered or their LO is or both. IMO, the limerent should be making the sound the garbage truck makes when it backs out of the driveway. Beep, beep, beep. 🙂 If not complete removal (depending on the situation), then as much as possible. Anything less and the limerent is pursing the limerence. Which is moving into the greyage. Line crossed. Go ahead. Yell at me. 🙂 I’m well aware I crossed a million lines. Shouldn’t have done it. And that’s another thing. You KNOW when you’re crossing the line. You can feel yourself crossing the line. I should never have responded to that email. “I’m just going to see what he does.” Wrong answer! Was it worth it? No, it wasn’t.
“I think you’ve got to be getting something from it (eventually) to keep it going. The loyalty / faithfulness is a good quality but reminds me of how a puppy would be. A puppy takes, and a puppy gives back. ”
On a total side note, I was watching this video by the luscious dating coach Matthew Hussey. (I can hear Snow chiming in here, saying he’s too masculine. :)) Bear with me. What is the #1 thing people do wrong in dating? Try to win the person over, thinking they are so above you. (I’m paraphrasing.) The opposite is going into dating with the mindset of … I’m confident, I have something of value to offer and if the other person doesn’t see it, that’s ok, but I’ll move on. And isn’t limerence the former? Isn’t that what we do with our LOs? And how “ick” must it be to be on the receiving end of it? That’s all I could think when I was watching the video.
“Limerence with a lot of exposure only holds for so long because we get to see the whole person. And I have noticed that effect at times. Everything just gets slowly more ordinary / ‘LE volume turned down’.”
I can only speak for myself, but it never got down to ordinary. And this was after yearS. 🙂 The limerence wasn’t as strong over time, but even before I finally left the job and we had some of our last conversations (and he knew I was leaving) … I thought: Is this really all you have to say to me?
LaR,
1.„I remember another poster (could have been LiS) once saying that eventually an unacted-upon LE reaches a similar stage to a relationship after the honeymoon period. Limerence with a lot of exposure only holds for so long because we get to see the whole person. And I have noticed that effect at times. Everything just gets slowlymore ordinary / ‘LE volume turned down’.“
But that’s even worse. I had it a bit with XLO. We had lots of contact, I saw the flaws, I got riled by always the same things. I also felt that at some point he treated me like a second wife, someone he took for granted. Suddenly you have two relationships to work on, one to SO and one to LO (and as much as I love LiS, I wouldn’t take him as a role model), and that’s too much to handle.
The stupid thing is, you see the flaws, it’s not all rosy any more, but you are hooked, it doesn’t mean you are free from limerence, you are still dependent (universal you).
2.„ I think you’ve got to be getting something from it (eventually) to keep it going. The loyalty / faithfulness is a good quality but reminds me of how a puppy would be. A puppy takes, and a puppy gives back. Make sure you get something back. Even if that’s not what your limerent brain told you you would get back.“
I ruminate a bit about that because I don’t understand fully. Do you mean that puppy comparison as positive (like in the puppy takes and gives back), or as negative?
Because I felt from time to time like that- that he‘s like a little dog that can’t speak but look hurt. I mean that negatively, for example, because it gave me the full responsibility without him taking any.
Also, what is it that one should get back? I mean this seriously. What is it one should get from a friendship?
What I liked about him when we were still in work environment with my other work friends, was that he never plays games, wears masks, he‘s just there. My other (mostly female) work friends are much easier to talk to about emotional stuff, they give more support in some areas and validation by words or gestures, but they are also a bit- they play games, they try to get you on their side or gossip about one another behind backs, and it’s not the uncomplicated feeling that they just like you,it’s a bit of politics and, actually, a game of give and take, that could be over if you don’t play it right.
People who just like me honestly without any reservations, there is either a hint of attraction from their side, so could be potentially dangerous (for them)or are not work related and I don’t see them so often.
What would you say is it that you need to get back from a friend other than regular contact?
(I don’t mean this as a challenge, I’m genuinely interested because at the moment I‘m confused about the meaning of friendship.)
3. I can’t stand Sex and the city, and especially Sarah Jessica Parker. She might be the nicest woman in the world, but somehow I cannot stand her acting.
“I meant porn. I thought that was clear. Thus, I used the word “adult.” 🙂”
Oh you were crystal clear, don’t worry a bit 🙂
“But haven’t you been debating doing this for the entirety of your time on here? Is that 2 or 3 years now ? ”
18th months talking on here (just with a lot of words!). I’ve only really taken any action in the direction of withdrawal this year.
“If they all got together once a year … that might even be a stretch.”
I’ve got one biggish group who still manage 1-2 meets a year but we’re all local. With another (college) group who scattered around we have a group of 4 men who manage to meet about twice a year, but the wider group manage once every five years if we’re lucky, with some flaking.
“I’m shocked that she’s not your type of gal. 🙂”
She’d eat me for dinner.
“But why would you even want to bother “working through” stuff just to get to a friendship? It’s too much work.”
‘Working through’ here meant establishing if there is anything beyond friendship ever going to happen or not. Eliminating that, if it’s not, so the friendship can happen without any thought of it.
“But don’t men do that, too. Put women in boxes? “Not interested,” “A little bit of fun,” “Relationship” ?”
I’m agreeing with you, I think – doing that is not a man-woman thing so much as a person thing.
“But for me, he would need to start out in the “would do” box.”
OK, I think I get you. And yes, I guess I’d put some people straight into ‘wouldn’t do’. The rest split into ‘definitely want to do’ all the way through to ‘may do’. But if I look at it how you are, that second group are all ‘would do’.
“But wouldn’t you say that … knowing you’re a limerent and that you also meld the friendship/relationship boundaries… you probably should stay away from opposite-sex friendships?”
This LE has taught me a lot. Yes, I will be wiser about that for the future. I learned all I know about limerence after I was already in the LE. It was the first one that hung around enough and caused me enough of a shake up to start looking deeper into it. I’d never heard of limerence before this.
“Line crossed. Go ahead. Yell at me. 🙂 I’m well aware I crossed a million lines. Shouldn’t have done it. And that’s another thing. You KNOW when you’re crossing the line.”
No need to yell or argue back at that (or any of what you wrote above it). You know this stuff and so do I.
“What is the #1 thing people do wrong in dating? Try to win the person over, thinking they are so above you. (I’m paraphrasing.) The opposite is going into dating with the mindset of … I’m confident, I have something of value to offer and if the other person doesn’t see it, that’s ok, but I’ll move on. And isn’t limerence the former?”
Yeah, I guess it’s hard to see the second way if you’re (plural) not naturally like that. It can feel like it’s about the thrill of ‘can I interest this person?’ which does involve some amount of pedestalling them when you say it like that. I’m not a fan of ‘grading’ people against others, but for purposes of illustrating my point – I think most people feel confident they can ‘punch down’ in terms of who they date, but are more attracted to trying to ‘punch up’ slightly.
“I can only speak for myself, but it never got down to ordinary. I thought: Is this really all you have to say to me?”
Ask Mila – she’s the subject area expert on that part (Mila, I’m pulling your leg 🙂)
Mila,
“Suddenly you have two relationships to work on, one to SO and one to LO (and as much as I love LiS, I wouldn’t take him as a role model), and that’s too much to handle.”
That fact was ultimately what started me working on the Death of Hope and what got me the furthest with it. It was too much like hard work and was duplicitous. LiS got deeper in the weeds with his LO than I did as there was mutual disclosure.
[I think you’ve got to be getting something from it (eventually) to keep it going. The loyalty / faithfulness is a good quality but reminds me of how a puppy would be]
“I ruminate a bit about that because I don’t understand fully. Do you mean that puppy comparison as positive (like in the puppy takes and gives back), or as negative?”
So it first came to me when you said about loyalty or faithfulness. This is what puppies (all dogs, really) give their owners. A puppy is hard work but rewarding (I’m talking literally here). I can see why you’d see it as a negative (likening a guy to a dog), but I didn’t mean it like that. It really depends if you find the loyalty and faithfulness he gives, enough for the effort it takes. I *still* don’t think you have got to a position to make that decision either way (even though it is not limerence-clouded any more), so don’t rush it.
“What is it one should get from a friendship?”
There’s no general answer to that. Different friendships give me / us different things. Some come and go, some last a lifetime. I don’t have any friend that gives me a whole package, if comparing all the best bits I get from different friends. That would be a lot to ask.
“What I liked about him when we were still in work environment with my other work friends, was that he never plays games, wears masks, he‘s just there.”
That quality is worth a great deal as far as I’m concerned.
“My other (mostly female) work friends are much easier to talk to about emotional stuff, they give more support in some areas and validation by words or gestures”
So then can it be a case of get that from them, know that you won’t get it from XLO, but remember what you did or do appreciate from XLO and find that as a strength in the friendship? (But I know it can sound so simple writing it out compared to the reality).
“People who just like me honestly without any reservations, there is either a hint of attraction from their side …”
I hear you. I’m trying to think if I even like anyone without *any* reservations. It’s a big ask.
“What would you say is it that you need to get back from a friend other than regular contact?”
You have mentioned a lot of the biggest things above. Liking me for who I am. Consistency. Loyalty. Honesty. Reciprocal nature to the friendship. Going out of their way to do bits for me sometimes, and/or letting me do it for them, but without that becoming an expectation or a chore. Replying if I contact them. Initiating contact of whatever nature at roughly 50% – I don’t sit here and count, but if I have initiated it the last 5 times, say, it is not a good sign.
LaR,
“Oh you were crystal clear, don’t worry a bit 🙂”
Ok. I thought … geez, if he can’t pick up on that … 🙂
“I’ve got one biggish group who still manage 1-2 meets a year but we’re all local. With another (college) group who scattered around we have a group of 4 men who manage to meet about twice a year, but the wider group manage once every five years if we’re lucky, with some flaking.”
That sounds about right. Adult friendship is extremely disappointing.
“She’d eat me for dinner.”
I would find that exciting.
I do a little test with guys and ask them who their celebrity crush it. It tells me a lot.
“‘Working through’ here meant establishing if there is anything beyond friendship ever going to happen or not. ”
But if one or both of you have an SO … how is this an issue?
“But if I look at it how you are, that second group are all ‘would do’.”
Yes, and it’s a small group. I’m not a man. 🙂 That isn’t to say all the people I’ve hooked up with have been first-draft picks in terms of my interest level. I would be lying if I wrote that.
“This LE has taught me a lot. Yes, I will be wiser about that for the future. I learned all I know about limerence after I was already in the LE. It was the first one that hung around enough and caused me enough of a shake up to start looking deeper into it. I’d never heard of limerence before this.”
But wasn’t there another woman, before your LE, who you disclosed to? And she felt the same? Weren’t you with your SO at the time? Correct me if I’m wrong. But if so, it sounds like you have a pattern of intense infatuations with other women.
“I’m not a fan of ‘grading’ people against others, but for purposes of illustrating my point – I think most people feel confident they can ‘punch down’ in terms of who they date, but are more attracted to trying to ‘punch up’ slightly.”
That never did it for me. I don’t want to sound arrogant, but I’m more attractive than LO-lite and my last big LO. That wasn’t what got me. But what I meant was … when you really, really like someone, you (generic “you”) start dancing around trying to win their attention and approval. It’s ass-kissing. Even if you aren’t doing anything specifically like over-calling or over-texting, I’m sure it comes across in your energy. It’s a “pick me” energy.
Mila,
I’m not a big Sex and the City fan. I disklike all the fashion talk and the focus on expensive clothes and shoes. I couldn’t care less about that stuff. But I liked that female friendship was at the center of the show. I don’t think it’s a particularly accurate depiction (not once they pair up and/or have kids), but it’s a nice sentiment. And the writers totally nailed the anxious-avoidant dynamic between Carrie and Mr. Big. And the fact that when she finally gets a guy who’s not playing games with her, she’s bored.
“I can’t go back and forth with you on this anymore.”
Marcia
I see somebody took their crabby pill today. I didn’t even get happy faces with that reply so I guess I rattled your chain a little too hard. Either that or you’re just not in the mood for my bs. I’m used to it. No harm intended Dear. You know I love you no matter how you treat me.. 😁
Tbh, I felt like you were ribbing me and then we’re right back at the age factor. Which again, obviously we don’t see eye to eye about. I’m not really trying to go round and round about it with you either. I’ve got my own hangups that are preventing me from making a valid move forward right now and a lot of that is due to my world outside of work right now in dealing with my Father. It is exhausting.
Right now I feel like I’m running on fumes. I’m not here to cause you grief or stress about relationship situations that as you know, many of us have made into our own personal little hells. As mentioned many times before, yes I do prefer younger Women but they are not the beginning nor the end. My Latina Friend is 42 and the other one I think is around 43. I’ve been chatting them up at work whenever I can. If this takes me another whole year to make happen, thats probably what I’ll do. On the plus side of that, I think thats one whole helluva lot better than self medicating, by finding quiet places around the complex at work and spending hours there in tears, trying to figure out why a LO I don’t even know makes me so sad and why I still can’t seem to ever get a simple, damn cup of coffee with anybody. . It’s my problem and I’ll deal with it.
Your suggestion however is duly noted and I will most definitely keep that under advisement..
Now if you will please excuse me, I am beat like a drum and I’d like to turn in for the night. Sweet dreams to you.. Chat soon.. 😆
„Liking me for who I am. Consistency. Loyalty. Honesty. Reciprocal nature to the friendship. Going out of their way to do bits for me sometimes, and/or letting me do it for them, but without that becoming an expectation or a chore. Replying if I contact them. Initiating contact of whatever nature at roughly 50%“
If I think about my XLO- Replying, initiating, consistency, loyalty, reciprocal , that’s all there. I‘m actually not quite sure about liking me for who I am. I think he likes me for all the validation I gave him and because I befriended him.
Honesty, well. I think he‘s not dishonest to me, it’s just that he isn’t honest to himself, so he cannot be really honest to others in a way. He‘s got a problem identifying or living feelings , that’s why he gets ill so often (my theory). All psychosomatic.
Going out of his way to do things for me, no. He can do only his way, and I also always had the feeling of „tit for tat“, like always counting what he did and what I did. I might be wrong there, but it felt like it, like I owe him a favor if he did something for me.
So, not sure, as you said, no rush to decide, and most probably no need to decide. It‘ll go the way it will, that’s my motto now.
No excess energy going that way, I‘ll go with the flow and instinct. At the moment, I’m afraid, the direction is a bit „I don’t care any more“, the more negative view of him predominates.
Because his loyalty and consistency seem to me a simple trait of his needing his routine and not a real attachment to this friendship. Might be wrong there again.
„ “I can only speak for myself, but it never got down to ordinary. I thought: Is this really all you have to say to me?”
Ask Mila – she’s the subject area expert on that part (Mila, I’m pulling your leg 🙂)“
Am I? 💪🏻I can tell you that only now I got to the point where I know already in advance that he won’t have anything more to say, so I don’t expect it.
MJ,
I wasn’t trying to be crabby, but we are never going to agree on this. And I’m starting to feel like I’m talking to the wall. Which I’m assuming you are feeling, too. 🙂
It would seem pretty self-evident why a woman YOUR AGE would grow tired of reading your posts about the hotness of much younger women. C’mon, dude. 🙂 Clue phone. It’s for you. (I know you’ll get that reference because it’s old. 🙂 ) I mean, I mentioned hooking up with a younger guy and instead of responding with “You go, girl!” which is how a lot of women responded, you wrote I was bragging. You might want to ask yourself why. (No, I don’t think it has anything to do with me.) But it probably elicits the same feeling I’m talking about, and it’s not fun.
Marcia,
maybe you are right about Sex and the city. I never got as far as to be able to judge Carries relationship or anything, since poor Sarah Jessica Parker put me off it immediately. I think I‘ve only watched one episode at most. I can see what you mean about it being nice to have a female friendship at the center, but this friendship seemed to revolve about fashion and sex and generally behaving like teenagers in a dislikeable way.
But then, I might have to try and rewatch, because this harsh judgement is from st least twenty years ago, it might come over completely differently for me now.
LaR,
I forgot to ask in my penultimate post: how would you feel if she got an SO now? I think I asked that already, but maybe something has changed now?
Mila,
“how would you feel if she got an SO now?”
Yes, I think you did ask me recently and I spent a lot of words speculating. So I’ll try and summarise this time.
The truth is – I don’t know, and I’m not sure I ever will until it happens. It could land anywhere between turning out to be a really good thing (make her happy, trample out the LE embers), and the opposite pole of me getting into a (totally unwarranted) jealous funk. Much would depend on my impressions of the guy and whether he’d treat her right. I’d hope she can see herself as worth good treatment and ultimately take steps to get that (it’s far from a given based on history). And I have no idea if my more primal brain would butt in and simply dislike it / him ‘just because’. But I hope not. I’d need to live it to know it.
Mila,
“I can see what you mean about it being nice to have a female friendship at the center, but this friendship seemed to revolve about fashion and sex and generally behaving like teenagers in a dislikeable way.”
Don’t you think all of us act like teenagers when it comes to the opposite sex? 🙂 And I do like a good sex talk. I would love a friend like Samantha. “I’m dating a guy with the funkiest tasting spunk.” 🙂
At one point, one of ladies does get annoyed and leaves their lunch because she says all they do is talk about men. There were some very moving moments showing how they support each other. Particularly at Miranda’s mother’s funeral.
“But then, I might have to try and rewatch, because this harsh judgement is from at least twenty years ago, it might come over completely differently for me now.”
I just watched the whole series (the first series, not the reboot). I didn’t watch it when it came out in the late ’90s. Some of it does not age well.
I’m starting to feel like I’m talking to the wall. Which I’m assuming you are feeling, too. 🙂
Marcia
Perhaps the only question I’ll reply to this is what does it really matter? Are we solving any real worldly issue to save the Universe? Its ok we disagree..
“It would seem pretty self-evident why a woman YOUR AGE would grow tired of reading your posts about the hotness of much younger women.”
I know I’m an idiot and I post about LOs perfection often, but where am I posting and praising the hotness of younger Women all the time? Are you referring to the Disco short? What can I say? It was a work thing I found and you and I were just discussing ABBA and their God awful music. Then you mentioned you liked disco. And I liked that song those girls were dancing to. Did it appeal to me because they were younger Women? Of course it did, but it was more about having fun and playfully teasing you.. You should come to expect that from me. But I’ll try to tone it down if you’re irritated. You know whenever you see my name in the queue, its optional for you to read it or ignore. You definitely wouldn’t be the first to reject me.. 😆
“I mean, I mentioned hooking up with a younger guy and instead of responding with “You go, girl!” which is how a lot of women responded, you wrote I was bragging.”
Again, with self claiming I’m still the big, dumb Oaf in the room, I can’t even remember what I mentioned about that but it wasn’t all that long ago, right? Whatever I said, I wasn’t trying to offend. And I didn’t think you would take it as such. Don’t you remember the young Dude I saw in the store that one night that was wearing the “I love older Women” shirt? I totally thought of you and said to myself, he’s probably your type. That’s almost a compliment coming from me.
You might want to ask yourself why.
(No, I don’t think it has anything to do with me.) But it probably elicits the same feeling I’m talking about, and it’s not fun.
I must be living under a rock because I’m totally not getting where you’re going with this. If anything by inciting that you were bragging, I was probably somewhat jealous because hooking up must be a lot easier for you than it is for me. Isn’t this always more true for Women anyway?? I’m not giving a crap about the age differences either. It’s such a non issue for me but you always seem to get your undies in a bundle over it.
Hi LaR,
of course it‘s something one can only know when it happens.
I just wondered if there might have been a shift, because, as I wrote to ABCD,when I really look closely, there are always small shifts going on inside me- just to pick a silly example, I’ve got something that was a gift from LXO, something practical, and I used it although the design wasn’t much to my taste- I used it out of a sense of obligation to the friendship, then I didn’t use it because I didn’t want to be reminded of XLO or out of spite (in my angry phase), and now I don’t use it simply because the design isn’t my taste…
So maybe you might realize at some point that you don’t feel that strongly protective of her any more or similar.
But that’s nothing I wanted you to worry with, just a curious question. Things seem to be in calm waters,so why not just enjoy that. Sometimes I think, all the head bashing and guilt inducing instead of letting things simply be is also a way to keep limerence alive. (I don’t mean you, I speak of past me).
Hi Marcia,
„ Don’t you think all of us act like teenagers when it comes to the opposite sex?“
Well yes, we do:) but they seemed to celebrate it as a trendy thing, I don’t know.
„ And I do like a good sex talk. I would love a friend like Samantha.“
Actually I would have liked that sort of a loyal friend group to whom I could talk unreservedly about anything. But then I‘m not sure I‘m the type. I do like my privacy and to keep all sorts of things to myself. Also, I don’t like to gossip about my partner to my friends, it feels disloyal.
Some scenes of Friends didn’t age well either, I’m sure all the stuff from those years has bits that would rightfully enrage a lot of activists now.. but I don’t mind that much, I have to say, since I anyway don’t take it seriously.
MJ,
“I must be living under a rock because I’m totally not getting where you’re going with this.”
When a middle-aged person watches another middle-aged person land someone much younger, it makes the first person wonder: Could I do that? Do I still have it?
” If anything by inciting that you probably somewhat jealous because hooking up must be a lot easier for you than it is for me. Isn’t this always more true for Women anyway?? ”
I didn’t create the psychology/biology of the sexes. I have no control over the fact that your side is so much less picky. Tbh, it icks me out, but I don’t make the rules.
But he did the two things any man would need to do to get laid (or date, for that matter).
1.) He chose from the women who were interested.
2.) He made a move.
Mila,
Those sort of stages where LO-related things cease to really ‘matter’ are still ahead of me, not reached yet. I think it is different trying to play out this phase with fairly constant contact with the LO. It is really good to here, for your sake, that you’ve now got as far as you describe.
“Sometimes I think, all the head bashing and guilt inducing instead of letting things simply be is also a way to keep limerence alive.”
I have thought about that too, and wondered whether being here on LwL helps it keep momentum. But I’ve made progress in the last year, and the conversations on here have helped with that.
It could seem like there is lots of head-bashing if you base it on my conversations with people on here, but the relationship with the person in real life, and my own headspace about it, are in much more settled space. The issues and complexities about it naturally come up under questioning from other posters. I think you’ve said this bit is similar for you – outside of LwL I’m spending much less time worrying about it. Which of course raises the question you brought – if that was less time spent here, would that be even less headspace it took? However – on balance I’ve felt that talking here has helped me manage it, process it, figure out routes through, much more than it has hindered.
I know that ours and others ‘snailhouse’ conversations might sometimes frustrate other posters, but this is everyone’s space to read and respond to what they want to, and pass by anything they don’t find interesting or helpful.
Hope this week is treating you well 🙂
“1.) He chose from the women who were interested.
2.) He made a move.”
Marcia
Thank you for clearing everything up Great One.
Your advice once again is noted.. 🫡
I don’t know what I’m struggling more with these days. Its either all these falling leaves in my yard or dealing with you.. 😆😆😆
Hi LaR,
Same here. I‘ve always processed stuff by writing, I’ve got lots of old diaries, forty or more. It does help me to get clarity, or to get rid of stuff. Since diaries are somewhat dangerous stuff in LEs, I tended to write here instead about limerence. Also, as I mentioned before, the translating into English seemed already a clarifying process.
Of course, if one writes in a public forum, people will read and judgy people will judge. But many people just gave support and advice, I cannot thank them enough (and you are most certainly one of them!)
So, we might take a hell of a lot of time to process these unwanted feelings into something else, but I actually tend to think it might even be a good thing because it could mean 1. that we‘ll be very thoroughly clean in the end, 2. that we are people who just cannot throw people out of our hearts easily, and isn’t that a positive trait in the end?
I‘m sure someone will label that as enabling and indulging, but I think I’m finally as much or more out of limerence (and I mean for good! Not in danger to fall limerent again for anyone) as many once-limerent people who took the NC approach.
MJ,
“I don’t know what I’m struggling more with these days. Its either all these falling leaves in my yard or dealing with you.. 😆😆😆”
Lol. 🙂 Admit it: You love dealing with me. 🙂
In all seriousness, I do like you. Even though I sometimes want to punch you in the face as you read your posts. 🙂
Mila,
“But many people just gave support and advice, I cannot thank them enough (and you are most certainly one of them!)”
Thank you too. You may not remember it because I was very new and rambling all sorts of confusions at the time, but you gave me one of the original keys to start untying this Gordian knot, when we discussed how to pay deliberate attention to our LOs’ flaws (May/June 2024). Having you, Bewitched, ABCD and others up ahead of me on the recovery journey has been most helpful.
“we are people who just cannot throw people out of our hearts easily, and isn’t that a positive trait in the end?. I‘m sure someone will label that as enabling and indulging”
I have been torn about the whole ‘enabling’ debates here lately. The site is called “living with limerence” and I think with that comes needing to be honest that it doesn’t just vanish overnight, and that often we’re (collective) trying to cope with pretty dark, intrusive things, on our own without telling real-life friends and family. At the same time we have to admit we might be harming ourselves if we keep LEs going.
I have clung tight to the belief “LO was my friend before LE and will be my friend after LE” – more than most people on LwL, and for longer. Part of that is because I actually do believe my relationship with my LO *is* different to most people’s (but then doesn’t everyone?, says the devil on the other shoulder). But then I’ve wondered if that’s also my way of enabling myself and of keeping it going. I appreciate the challenges I get to this ‘friends’ idea (yep, I’m looking at you Dame Marcia 👋- I do really mean that), as well as the people like you who help me realise that maybe it isn’t all self-delusion. And also what you said, it’s good to acknowledge that we’re trying to act decently in the process.
I think I’d advise almost anybody on here to go NC with their LO if there was no chance of it progressing, so I am cautious not to imply that my way through it could help others. But NC or ‘gray-rocking’ is so much easier said than done when there is a working relationship and/or a long friendship.
Mila,
“Well yes, we do:) but they seemed to celebrate it as a trendy thing, I don’t know.”
Well, with the Sarah Jessica Parker character … she doesn’t really grow. At least in the original series. She tells Mr. Big off and as the viewer you’re thinking: Finally! I mean, he’s hot, but he’s been jerking her around. It’s an impactful moment. But then … they get together at the end. Which is ridiculous. No guy who’s kept you in an on-again, off-again situationship for six years is going to suddenly commit. It would have been much more meaningful if she had told him off and then learned from that moment. So I can see your complaint that the women seem teenagerish.
“Also, I don’t like to gossip about my partner to my friends, it feels disloyal.”
I don’t see it as gossip. To be clear, I mean discussing personal stuff with one or two close friends. Not the woman who does your hair. I think you have to have more than just your partner who you’re close with. And you can’t talk to a partner about everything.
And I have had those “nitty-gritty” sex talks with straight, male friends. (Not with all of them.) That was interesting. Because you get a different perspective.
Marcia,
“I do a little test with guys and ask them who their celebrity crush it. It tells me a lot.”
You didn’t ask me directly, but Shakira or Kate Winslet would be along the right lines for me. In my dreams 😆
“But if one or both of you have an SO … how is this [working through if anything may happen] an issue?”
That was meant as a more general point about male-female friendships.
[“But if I look at it how you are, that second group are all ‘would do’.”]
“Yes, and it’s a small group.”
Ballpark figure – about what % of men that you meet make that cut?
“But wasn’t there another woman, before your LE, who you disclosed to? And she felt the same? Weren’t you with your SO at the time Correct me if I’m wrong”
Nope, that’s accurate. There was then a big gap and I thought I was past all that – until I wasn’t, of course. She and LO have a lot of similarities so if I put the two together it is telling me what to avoid. Here, have a gimme – I’ll write your reply to me for you – ‘friendship with any other woman because you have an SO’ 🙂. I get it really.
“when you really, really like someone, you (generic “you”) start dancing around trying to win their attention and approval. It’s ass-kissing. Even if you aren’t doing anything specifically like over-calling or over-texting, I’m sure it comes across in your energy. It’s a “pick me” energy.”
It must work for some people out there, but I get your point – taking the opposite attitude and not caring so much is so more attractive.
“In all seriousness, I do like you. Even though I sometimes want to punch you in the face as you read your posts. 🙂”
Marcia
Yeah, you sound a lot like my Ex (She’s 54 now too.
Go figure.. 😆) She’s gets that aggravated with me too. I just somehow suck it out of all you middle aged ladies. Big Dummy I am 😂
(Think Sanford&Son 😁).
All good Dear. I wouldn’t want you any other way..
MJ,
“Yeah, you sound a lot like my Ex (She’s 54 now too.
Go figure.. 😆) She’s gets that aggravated with me too. I just somehow suck it out of all you middle aged ladies.”
Oh, God. I HATE to be called middle-aged. I know I am, but I HATE it. There’s a greeter at my Wal-Mart, an older gentleman, who calls me “young lady.” I know it’s bullshit flattery, but I don’t care. 🙂
That being said … We have discovered your appeal!
Forget women who are nice to you. You need to find ones who have a soft spot for you but who could, at any time, suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere … want to run you over with their cars … after you … you know … talk. 🙂
Seriously. And these women will probably be a lot more fun than the nice ones. 🙂
*starts looking through the wedding card section of Hallmark*
LaR,
“You didn’t ask me directly, but Shakira or Kate Winslet would be along the right lines for me. In my dreams 😆”
Bless you for listing some age-appropriate women. You have no idea the points that gets you. 🙂 I have some Shakira on my playlist. “There’s a she-wolf in your closet. Let it out so it can breathe.” 🙂 There is really only one type of woman that would make me rethink the guy. I’ll let you guess. (Don’t be obvious. It’s not someone being young. :))
[“But if one or both of you have an SO … how is this working through if anything may happen] an issue?”]
“That was meant as a more general point about male-female friendships.”
So … I have to ask … how many times have you made a new female friend and shortly after had “the talk,” verifying you are just friends. I have never had that conversation.
“Ballpark figure – about what % of men that you meet make that cut?”
I’d like to rename the categories. It’s not so much “would do”/”wouldn’t do” as “not attracted”/”am attracted.” We’ve talked about this before. The “am attracted” comes in levels and degrees. Attracted enough that it’s memorable and I hope something happens? … maybe three in the last year.
“Nope, that’s accurate. There was then a big gap and I thought I was past all that – until I wasn’t, of course. ”
I thought I was past all this, too. But I reiterate … I knew what I was doing. Limerence is powerful, but it doesn’t give people a lobotomy. 🙂
“Here, have a gimme – I’ll write your reply to me for you – ‘friendship with any other woman because you have an SO’ 🙂. I get it really.”
Am I getting that predictable? 🙂
Hi LaR,
I never thought you were rambling, you just laid down your conflicting drives concerning your LE.
I didn’t mean that NC is the wrong approach or that it isn’t true that we should in the end not live with limerence but get away from it. I mean that the path isn’t straight for most. For me, there has to be a lot of wondering and rambling and also accepting feelings instead of pushing them away, so as to be able to let go at some point. That might look like enabling.
But honestly, who can really go „oh, I’m limerent. Well, let’s press the red button and not think about it anymore“? So, it’s a back and forth, and of course that could go wrong and one could go in circles.
But then, one could also just push the whole mess deep down inside without allowing any glance back and then be surprised how it will surge up very unpleasantly later in life.
It’s no black and white, as always.
I think, at least for my XLO friendship, while limerent, I was hoping for it to go back to the warm and close friendship I imagined having with him. Now I see that it can go back to some kind of friendship, but that this warm and close special stuff was a limerent illusion- or not illusion, maybe it was really there, I don’t know- but now it seems that me myself, I cannot find my way back into the warmth and trust because I see him in a different light now.
I don’t want to shatter your hopes, because your situation is different.
I‘m just not sure if this revelation that XLO is different than I thought isn’t the key factor in shutting the LE off once and for all, and that, if there really was this warm and close person, I wouldn’t still struggle with limeremce, so that it might ultimately be a good thing for me that this kind of friendship I imagined isn’t possible with him.
I‘m sure that came over very confusing and garbled since I’m typing in a hurry, sorry.
Marcia,
“Bless you for listing some age-appropriate women. You have no idea the points that gets you.”
I even named ones slightly older than me 🙂 It wasn’t deliberate.
I over-generalise here, but (aside from the fact that I am old enough to be the father of younger celebrities), there are some ‘trends’ among younger women now that just don’t float my boat.
The first is ‘getting work done’ on themselves. I would never find that any ‘work done’ (eg on the face) makes a woman more attractive than how she looked without it. That’s just me.
And then, a lot of younger women are fixated on being a certain (skinny) body shape that the beauty and celebrity industries have driven into them as the ‘right’ way to look. A celebrity here, Kelly Brook, has just gone on a reality TV show. Before, she was putting out almost apologetic social media posts saying she has a more ‘curvaceous’ look and begging people to be kind to her about it when she appears on TV. I think that’s a shame she has to say it, as curves should be something to be proud of. I know society isn’t set up to think like that, but some men do think differently (Hence my celebrity crush choices).
I mean no offence to anyone reading this by what I have said there. It is purely a comment about *my personal preferences* – others will vary.
“There is really only one type of woman that would make me rethink the guy. I’ll let you guess.”
I mean you followed that on from talking about Shakira’s ‘she-wolf’ lyrics – should that give me a clue?
“So … I have to ask … how many times have you made a new female friend and shortly after had “the talk,” verifying you are just friends. I have never had that conversation.”
Not a lot. Once with someone I’d been friends with for a year – it was mutual and we went on to be in a LTR. But others friends had noticed and sideline communicated the mutual interest first. And then the woman we discussed a couple of messages back, where it was mutual.
But I’ve never had the conversation where it went ‘is there anything here?’, ‘no, nothing here’. It sounds cringe like that, right? I have worked through those ones in my head alone. And sometimes been friends with the woman afterwards, sometimes not.
[“Ballpark figure – about what % of men that you meet make that cut?”]
“I’d like to rename the categories.”
Hey, no fair! ‘Do’ or ‘not do’ were *your* categories! As a way of categorising anyone we meet into a binary ‘yes’ or ‘no’. It has been me arguing for the blurring in the past.
Joking aside, I do get you, but if we stuck to those labels, what % of men go into each??
“Attracted enough that it’s memorable and I hope something happens? … maybe three in the last year.”
Now I get what this category is. Obviously I know who one of those is, but are either of the other two current ‘prospects’?
“Am I getting that predictable?”
Yes and no. You are speaking some truths to me – I think is what it comes down to. Your posts have a balance that I can work with – of acknowledging that we are all flawed humans and make these repeated mistakes, and why we do it (you have been that person and been with those people, which you don’t hide) – but alongside that, that we (limerents – plural) know what we’re doing, we know what’s wrong with it, and we shouldn’t be enabled to repeat the behaviours.
I am actually pretty confident that, with knowledge from the LE and LwL, I will see early warning signs and won’t let myself form more dangerous opposite-sex “friendships” again. I don’t actually want to go through the last 2.5 years of my life again. I’m willing to accept that’s the way it needs to be – more willing than I am to admit I have to wrench away totally from the current one. So there it is – won’t be a surprise to hear.
LaR,
I even named ones slightly older than me 🙂 It wasn’t deliberate.”
Bless you. 🙂
“I over-generalise here, but (aside from the fact that I am old enough to be the father of younger celebrities)”
That’s what I’ve been trying to tell another party on here. 🙂
“And then, a lot of younger women are fixated on being a certain (skinny) body shape that the beauty and celebrity industries have driven into them as the ‘right’ way to look. ”
I see something totally different in my neck of the woods. I see the trend as having a big butt. What we used to call “thick” when I was growing up. Everyone seems to be trying to grow their glutes. A big chest helps but the butt seems to be more important.
“I mean you followed that on from talking about Shakira’s ‘she-wolf’ lyrics – should that give me a clue?”
Um … I think I mentioned that I liked her (minus her Eurotrash taste in men :)). So, not really.
“Not a lot. Once with someone I’d been friends with for a year – it was mutual and we went on to be in a LTR. But others friends had noticed and sideline communicated the mutual interest first. ”
Were you about 15 at the time? 🙂
“But I’ve never had the conversation where it went ‘is there anything here?’, ‘no, nothing here’. It sounds cringe like that, right? ”
You wrote that men and women can be friends once the “sex stuff” is out of the way. I’m asking … how are you SURE it’s out of the way without discussing it? Because, as indicated from my male friend examples, we were on two separate pages.
“I have worked through those ones in my head alone. And sometimes been friends with the woman afterwards, sometimes not.”
I’m not sure what you are referring to here. The women you were attracted to but didn’t tell and stayed friends with ? So of your female friends, there have been 3 total you liked as more than friends ? The one you ended up in an LTR with, the one you mutually disclosed to and your current LO?
“Hey, no fair! ‘Do’ or ‘not do’ were *your* categories! ”
I thought about it more, and I very rarely meet a man, take one look at him and think: How do I get him to the Motel 6? 🙂 So “want to do” and “don’t want to do” aren’t accurate. There usually has to be some interaction before I get to that level. “Attracted” and “not attracted” are more accurate.
“It has been me arguing for the blurring in the past.”
It’s still a binary. The categories don’t blur. Now what can happen is they’re in the “attracted” category and I talk to them a bit and think: Nope. But if I’m not attracted, they don’t move to the “attracted” category. Now, I can think of two exceptions. One guy I worked with for a few years. I didn’t really pay all that much attention to him and didn’t know him well, though he had always been professional with me. And then out of nowhere one day, he said some kind of a slightly raunchy, test-the-waters comment to me, which I was not expecting. From that point on, I had a crush on him. And that guy friend I hooked up with … I did start thinking about him differently after I hooked up with him.
“Joking aside, I do get you, but if we stuck to those labels, what % of men go into each??”
So you want me to calculate all the men I’ve encountered in the last 10.5 months of 2025? 🙂 It’s VERY small. Less than 1 percent ? They have a physiological impact on me. Flippy flop in the stomach, etc. I sound like a Taylor Swift song. 🙂
“Obviously I know who one of those is, but are either of the other two current ‘prospects’?”
No
“I am actually pretty confident that, with knowledge from the LE and LwL, I will see early warning signs and won’t let myself form more dangerous opposite-sex “friendships” again. I don’t actually want to go through the last 2.5 years of my life again. I’m willing to accept that’s the way it needs to be – more willing than I am to admit I have to wrench away totally from the current one. So there it is – won’t be a surprise to hear.”
And I still would want to date a man who only had male friends. 🙂
Hi Marcia,
„So I can see your complaint that the women seem teenagerish.“
Actually I have no right to complain since I haven’t seen enough of the series.
„I think you have to have more than just your partner who you’re close with. And you can’t talk to a partner about everything.“
That’s true. Somehow my SO is still the closest one to me, and if there’s trouble with him, I tend to keep it to myself. I‘m not saying that’s good.
Also, I feel reluctant to discuss sex with friends. Probably because that’s also SO‘s area for over twenty years and it feels like revealing private stuff that‘s about him while he doesn’t have a chance to decide if he wants it revealed.
As I said, I‘m not sure it’s good.
Mila,
“Also, I feel reluctant to discuss sex with friends. Probably because that’s also SO‘s area for over twenty years and it feels like revealing private stuff that‘s about him while he doesn’t have a chance to decide if he wants it revealed.”
It’s not always about sex. I’m not referring to Sex and the City but close female friendship. I just think that women will understand another woman in a way a man can’t. Which isn’t a criticism so much as a reality.
Wouldn’t it have been nice to have a friend to discuss your LE with? Now, that can be tricky. I had friends who were dismissive and one friend I think was a bit enabling. But if it’s someone you can really trust and someone who knows you well, they can be supportive while subtly steering you away from the Crazytown. 🙂
Marcia,
[I am old enough to be the father of younger celebrities]
“That’s what I’ve been trying to tell another party on here.”
To each their own.
“I see the trend as having a big butt.”
That’s passed me by if it’s reached my neck of the woods! Huge amounts of muscle everywhere and no fat in between – yeah. Big butt – no. Will keep my eyes peeled.
“There is really only one type of woman that would make me rethink the guy. I’ll let you guess”
Can you give a clue then?
“Were you about 15 at the time?”
Very good 😂 Do you charge for those?
“You wrote that men and women can be friends once the “sex stuff” is out of the way. I’m asking … how are you SURE it’s out of the way without discussing it?”
I guess you’re never cast-iron sure about the other person’s view. I’ve had two very long term female friendships where it has never seemed an issue, nothing said from either side, no need, never will be. Why those and no others? I have no idea!
“I’m not sure what you are referring to here. The women you were attracted to but didn’t tell and stayed friends with”
Yes
“So of your female friends, there have been 3 total you liked as more than friends?”
There have been more than that across life, but the 2 examples I gave were the only women where I had an “are we friends or is there more here?” conversation.
“So “want to do” and “don’t want to do” aren’t accurate. There usually has to be some interaction before I get to that level”.
I think our wires are crossed on what we originally meant. Not a problem – it’s bound to happen. I thought we were thinking something like “on first impressions, might I, hypothetically, ever ‘do’?’.
“And then out of nowhere one day, he said some kind of a slightly raunchy, test-the-waters comment to me, which I was not expecting. From that point on, I had a crush on him.”
That’s the sort of thing I thought we meant by the ‘would’ basket. Initially not ‘must right now’ but not ‘definite no’. This is hard to unpack in writing!
“Less than 1 percent ? They have a physiological impact on me. Flippy flop in the stomach, etc.”
Yep we were on different pages.
“I sound like a Taylor Swift song.”
Wouldn’t that be the bitter song when it all went wrong?
“And I still would want to date a man who only had male friends.”
I’d expect nothing less 🙂
Mila,
It wasn’t garbled and I got your meaning. Most people here had a twisty path of sorts out of LE, and relapses have been par for the course. It is just that some here are out of the woods and looking back, with some still far ‘in the woods’. Even many of those who are out had a twisty journey to get there. We keep going 💪
LaR,
“To each their own.”
Ah, the bro code. I forgot it exists.
“That’s passed me by if it’s reached my neck of the woods! Huge amounts of muscle everywhere and no fat in between – yeah. Big butt – no. Will keep my eyes peeled.”
I know someone who got a BBL. I’d say the female ideal is now Jennifer Lopez. Very toned, muscular, bigger legs/hips, big butt, flat stomach, small upper body. At least where I am.
“Can you give a clue then?”
Well, a celebrity crush reflects your fantasy, right? Aren’t there fantasies that could disappoint?
[“Were you about 15 at the time?”]
“Very good 😂 Do you charge for those?”
I should, right? 🙂 Seriously, why did it take you a YEAR? Why did other people have to intervene? Did they pass her your note in study hall? 🙂
“I guess you’re never cast-iron sure about the other person’s view. I’ve had two very long term female friendships where it has never seemed an issue, nothing said from either side, no need, never will be. Why those and no others? I have no idea!”
Because you weren’t interested. So on your end … there was nothing to talk about. 🙂
“There have been more than that across life”
I KNEW it! 🙂
[“And then out of nowhere one day, he said some kind of a slightly raunchy, test-the-waters comment to me, which I was not expecting. From that point on, I had a crush on him.”]
“(That’s the sort of thing I thought we meant by the ‘would’ basket. Initially not ‘must right now’ but not ‘definite no’. )”
To quote Snow, “Is there a glimmer or not?” It’s a feeling. And it happens quickly. As in: within the first few seconds of meeting someone. It’s a yes or no. There’s no basket for maybes. But the guy I mentioned above … I’m not sure what happened there. My point about him was … his comment struck a match, so to speak. But he wasn’t a guy I knew well before. We weren’t friends and then, after getting to know him, I moved him into the “yes” category.
“Yep we were on different pages.”
What do you mean? Your percentage is higher? (And I DON’T need to know it. I have already talked to a few guy friends (years ago) about this topic, and I am still experiencing ptsd from what they told me. )
Or you experience attraction differently? It feels different in your body. There are men I see on the street or when I’m out and about and I can recognize they’re attractive. Sometimes there’s a small level of shazam but it’s not enough to do anything about. What I’m referring to is: I hope this guy talks to me. I hope he asks me out.
“Wouldn’t that be the bitter song when it all went wrong?”
It is bitter. Because the glimmer steers you into … morons. 🙂
“I HATE to be called middle-aged. I know I am, but I HATE it.”
Marcia
LF told me last year her Mom was so excited to turn 55 because she could finally start getting more Senior discounts everywhere. I told her, I am nothing like that. I don’t want to be a Senior, don’t like thinking about being a Senior. Don’t even want the discounts that come with the package either. Nope, not me. I’ll pay regular price please.
“You need to find ones who have a soft spot for you but who could, at any time, suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere … want to run you over with their cars …”
Yeah I know a couple ladies like that. The love/hate dynamic kinda has some advantages. Especially if it means some hot monkey sex is coming.. 😆
If you prefer the natural look, come to the Midwest. People here still get their big butts the old-fashioned way–through too much cheese and fried foods and pop. 😉
I’m with you, MJ–No senior discounts for me till I’m about 70! I associate “senior” with the elderly–Social Security, Medicare, etc. I’m way too young yet!
Serial,
That comment about the midwest really gave me a smile!
My question is about this body type that Marcia mentioned with JLo as an example – toned but big in all the ‘right’ places, nothing in-between. I see a lot of people who look like this nowadays. But how?? It must take so much work! Because whatever we do, we can’t press a button to divert the fat to go on or come off some places but not others! It is quite miraculous how people get and maintain these (stereotyped as ‘perfect’) shapes.
LaR,
“My question is about this body type that Marcia mentioned with JLo as an example – toned but big in all the ‘right’ places, nothing in-between. I see a lot of people who look like this nowadays. But how??”
BBL. And doing a lot of weighted hip thrusts.
It’s the Sir-Mix-A-Lot song.
“‘Cause your waist is small and your curves are kickin'”
“That when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist and a round thing in your face”
“Little in the middle but she got much back”
People misinterpreted that song as a preference for big rear ends. But it’s not JUST a big rear end he wants.
Marcia,
I had to look up what BBL meant 🙂
I think you’re right about the lyrics. But sometimes I look at people with figures like that (nothing in between) and think ‘almost impossible’
For Marcia and LaR:
https://youtu.be/H8ST4KwkNas
@LAR
“That comment about the midwest really gave me a smile!”
That was the point! 🙂
A small waist and big butt sounds so disproportional. 😛 And good luck finding a dress that fits everywhere!
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bsx2Jtq7fFs
Here’s what I’m talking about.
I don’t know how much of her shape is genetic, but you can also see she’s lifting pretty heavy. Ain’t no 2-pound, pink dumbbells here. 🙂 And see no cardio. I would suspect that a majority of her workout is heavy weight training and that her diet is protein heavy.
Marcia,
“Ain’t no 2-pound, pink dumbbells here.”
I had to look twice to be sure she wasn’t AI-generated 😅 I’m honestly torn between admiration at the effort it must take to maintain that, and …. I just don’t know what else
… I feel like that ‘merchandise’ must be painful to lug about?!
“Ah, the bro code. I forgot it exists.”
Someone has to have that pair of old greyheads’ backs 🙂 (I am also ‘salt and pepper’, and have been for best part of last 20 years – more salt these days).
“Did they pass her your note in study hall?”
Yep, then we sneaked off behind the bike sheds for a snog 😂
No, the reality is – this IS me, remember – we were friends first and I didn’t catch feelings for the first 10 months.
[I’ve had two very long term female friendships where it has never seemed an issue, nothing said from either side, no need, never will be]
“So on your end … there was nothing to talk about.”
I mean I can’t say for sure about ‘on their end’, but I’d bet it was the same. I think the examples illustrate that *sometimes* a man and a woman can be friends without ‘the rest’ interfering at any point (and yes, that is more problematic when either has an SO, though one of these two in my examples has become a platonic friend while I’ve been with SO).
“What do you mean? Your percentage is higher?”
This whole ‘baskets’ thing just gets lost in translation in writing.
If we’re talking about the level you refer to in saying “I hope this guy talks to me. I hope he asks me out.”, then I just did a quick tot up of people I’ve ever got bothered about to that level. It’s about 25 women – less than one a year average for my adult life. The higher number (the one you don’t want to hear) was more of a ‘hypothetically on first impressions, I might’. Or put another way, everyone not in the ‘definitely wouldn’t’ basket.
LaR,
“I had to look twice to be sure she wasn’t AI-generated 😅 I’m honestly torn between admiration at the effort it must take to maintain that”
I get all kinds of videos with women built like this. Once you look at one, more pop up in your feed. So is this new “in” body type achievable? For some women, yes. Every generation seems to have a new body type that’s in. I don’t know how much effort it takes to maintain. It could be doable and she’s probably been working out for a while. You don’t start out using heavy weights like that. Or maybe it takes an insane number of hours to maintain. Idk.
“… I feel like that ‘merchandise’ must be painful to lug about?!”
That’s an odd thing for a man to say. 🙂 So apparently that’s not the body type you like. 🙂 But that does bring up a good point … even if there is an “in” body type, not every guy is going to be like it.
“I am also ‘salt and pepper’, and have been for best part of last 20 years – more salt these days.”
I’m sorry. 🙂
I don’t always dislike grey hair. Did it look good on Richard Gere in “Pretty Woman.” Ummm… is that a question I need to answer? 🙂
“No, the reality is – this IS me, remember – we were friends first and I didn’t catch feelings for the first 10 months.”
I have to be honest: I don’t understand how it takes 10 months to catch feelings.
” think the examples illustrate that *sometimes* a man and a woman can be friends without ‘the rest’ interfering at any point ”
So I talked to my male friend a little bit about this topic. He has a number of female friends and seems to make a point of telling me a couple may like him, like him. I can’t figure out if he’s trying to make me jealous. But to be honest, it has the opposite effect. It’s given me a bit of the ick. He claims he does not have interest in them. But … I think there are ways his behavior could be misinterpreted. He is very attentive. A good listener. Asks questions. (The latter two behaviors are VERY rare, as you and I have discussed.) He pays for whatever they do together. And while not overly touchy feely, he doesn’t shy away from being a little up in their business (sitting closely, etc.) I’m starting to think he likes thinking they like him. I think he subtly encourages the attention while staying in/enjoying the ambiguity.
“If we’re talking about the level you refer to in saying “I hope this guy talks to me. I hope he asks me out.”, then I just did a quick tot up of people I’ve ever got bothered about to that level. ”
I’m talking about meeting someone and thinking: Who is that?
“The higher number (the one you don’t want to hear) was more of a ‘hypothetically on first impressions, I might’. ”
I don’t know exactly what you’re talking about, but for me, I may notice a cute guy. If I have to interact with him, it’s a nice moment, but when I walk away … the moment is gone and out of my head. I wouldn’t even go so far as to describe him as a “maybe” because I’m not really thinking like that. It’s kind of like … cute guy, next! The other basket is “never going to happen,” but it’s not one I’m really aware I’m putting them into. They just don’t make an impression.
“He is very attentive. A good listener. Asks questions.”
I don’t think it’s a problem of rare, but more mistaken for something more. The western world’s view on men and women’s nowadays is skewered that a man being those things when interacting with a woman is seen as flirting and/or having an ulterior motive. I’ve gotten looks from women that scream “pervert” on their face because I held a door open because she was 3 paces behind me to enter the building. Not saying every woman … many say “thank you”. I think manners and chivalry are not even rare …. men are just walking away from the tiresome non-sense of a lot of younger modern American women.
If listening to a woman and asking question to engage in what she wants to share with you is wrong … than I don’t want to be right.
Adam,
“I don’t think it’s a problem of rare, but more mistaken for something more. ”
It’s very rare. Most people just take the conversation back to themselves and never ask questions. I’m not saying he never does that — we all do– but he’s “that guy.” The one people go to if they have problems to discuss. That’s part of his identity, I think.
That, coupled with the fact that he hangs out with these women one-on-one and pays … I could see why there could be misunderstandings.
“I’ve gotten looks from women that scream “pervert” on their face because I held a door open because she was 3 paces behind me to enter the building. ”
I would think this was basic politeness and manners. I wouldn’t think the man was necessarily trying to come onto me.
“If listening to a woman and asking question to engage in what she wants to share with you is wrong … than I don’t want to be right.”
Again, he’s also paying and he’s taking them out.
But really listening to someone … can be seductive. And I don’t know how much communication he has with these friends. He may be texting them a lot ?
I can’t address my post to any specific 👻 any more, or she or he would end up in my dream — Lady Marcia occupied the center of my massy, incoherent dream this morning, I’m so tired now after a supposed sleep 🙄
scene 1:
Lady Marcia and I were roommate, sharing one small room in a small apartment building, seeming to be somewhere in COO I knew/saw once. I wanted to stay in after work in the evenings, but she tried to push me out to date; I did not want to go out dating in the darkness of evenings.
Outside of this room, it was dark and gloomy; the inside was dark, chilly, too. I could see only my single bed facing the door, on the side of this desk with a black desk-copier, but I could not see Lady Marcia’s side in the room.
Scene 2:
We both seemed to be working in a small commercial kitchen with a bunch of stoves in the center of a small room , but there was no cooking or serving activities. Lady Marcie was always there gossiping about others’ and her dating stories. I was always standing in this kitchen, with other 3 or 4 guys (maybe one woman) listening to her amazing dating life.
There was an older, easy-going boss, and my old bisexual colleague/“xLO” (I told here the story about him who married and divorced an Asian girl and then going out with a beautiful young man when I suddenly developed a crush for him due to a dream — no glimmer). In the dream, he was gay and still my friend.
Scene 3:
There were a few unknown “manly” flirty men came and left the kitchen, either as new stuff or customers (?). Lady Marcie went up to flirt with them and went out with two or three of them; but the date didn’t last long. My old colleague was shy in the dream (but flirty and extrovert in reality). I sensed that Lady Marcia wanted to seduce him, but didn’t think she could succeed.
Scene 4:
At one point, the restaurant became deserted, only the boss and this old colleague left and stayed in the quiet, dark storage room (looked like a horse staple) distanced from the kitchen. They lived in there. Not sure where Lady Marcie had gone, too. I was melancholy to see the business was running down.
Scene 5:
The kitchen got bustling again with 6-7 stuff. There was an event going on outside the kitchen, but still no one was actually/actively cooking or preparing food. It seemed there was a French young chief and another short, masculine middle-aged American man. Lady Marcia was busy flirting around, and we all wanted to see whom she’d hook up with.
By then, the kitchen had two rooms with an open door in between. Lady Marcia went into the small room when the majority of us stood around in the old, main room. The French and my old colleague was in the other room, and Lady Marcie went in. All of us held our breath to see if she’d work up to that French, but the plastic windows were foggy due to cooking steam.
Oh, No! She got physically close with my old colleague, but we could not see what was happening due to the foggy window… [blank]
[I didn’t wake up but was brought to a huge safari park with a huge open, desert-looking area with many artificial hills, Some mutated animals, lions, tigers, wolves lived. I am not sure whether I was working in the park or just a visitor.]
Scene 6:
My parent came into the park, and many people was search and scavenge chocolates hidden somewhere. I chatted a bit with my parents, asking whether they enjoyed their visit, they were smiling and taking their time strolling around.
At a point, I was chatting with the park ranger, a short Asian looking man, in the “valley”, this strange-look orange lion was running toward us, looking scary. The ranger just waved his hand and the “lion” walked back. Then another huge, orange scorpion/crab like creature also ran towards the ranger and me, and the ranger raised his hand, the creature also returned to its path…
Then I woke up…
Sorry for typos, got to run to work…
Forgot a detail:
In scene 2: Lady Marcia was actually coaching all of us how to date… — a piece of non-official job in the kitchen. 😆
Needless to say, Lady Marcia wears the exact same face as my mental image of her for over two years… (I described once here)
Got to run 🏃🏻♀️…
Remembered another detail in scene 1—
Marcia went out dating every night and woke me up between 2-3 am while coming home…
No wonder I was tired after waking up… 😆
Miss Snow,
“Needless to say, Lady Marcia wears the exact same face as my mental image of her for over two years… (I described once here)”
She’s gorgeous in your dreams, right? Looks like she’s in her late 20s or early 30s and is thus attracting all kinds of middle-aged male limerent attention? 🙂
I don’t dream about much of anything. I rarely remember my dreams. I’m surprised you would dream about anyone on here as you haven’t seen us IRL.
MJ,
Where is my part-time lover? 🙂 You won’t believe what is now a revival on Broadway? The musical “Chess”! It contains the song “One Night in Bangkok”! We were just talking about that. The musical is from the ’80s! Two guys from ABBA wrote the music. You’re already intrigued, aren’t you? 🙂 Anyway, that chick from the TV show “Glee” is in the revival and she and two guys from the show performed a medley of songs on The Tonight Show last night. They did “One Night in Bangkok.” Made it super cheesy. I am NOT a fan! 🙂
“The musical “Chess”! It contains the song “One Night in Bangkok”! We were just talking about that. The musical is from the ’80s! Two guys from ABBA wrote the music. You’re already intrigued, aren’t you?”
Marcia Dear,
Here I thought you were about to brief me on the new Broadway musical, “The Queen of Versailles” starring Kristen Chenowith.
It showed up on my feed (Because I adored her in “Wicked”) and because one click means I get a thousand other new feeds about it now..
Darn algorithms.. 😆
Why couldn’t you have just followed suit?? 😂
Of course I am not interested in “Chess”, lmao.. As soon as you mentioned 2 Dudes from Abba, the light went off.
I find their music almost deplorable. I can’t imagine this would would merit my needing to attend.. 😆
“Anyway, that chick from the TV show “Glee” is in the revival and she and two guys from the show performed a medley of songs on The Tonight Show last night. They did “One Night in Bangkok.” Made it super cheesy. I am NOT a fan! 🙂”
I think you’re talking about Lea Michele aren’t you? Yeah, I’ve always thought she’s really super cute and not a terrible actress either. But I hear she’s like a total Drama Queen in real life too. Like drama, whiny and high maintenance, which is a major turn off. So I’d have probably ended up hate-watching that. Would probably agree with you completely about the “cheesy” factor..
So cringe.. 😝😆
Speaking of musicals that will be worth seeing. This just landed in my feed.. 🥰
https://deadline.com/2025/11/sabrina-carpenter-to-star-alice-in-wonderland-musical-universal-1236614143/
👒 👠 Lady Marcia,
“She’s gorgeous in your dreams, right? Looks like she’s in her late 20s or early 30s and is thus attracting all kinds of middle-aged male limerent attention? 🙂
Yes, she’s between 20s — 30s, energetic and feisty as I mentally pieced together previously. She never stopped moving in the dream, verbally persuading me to go out in the darkness, coming home in the dawn, describing her dating experiences to us and coaching us the kitchen stuff, and unblushingly and unhesitantly flirting with male strangers in and out of the kitchen… 👀
Picture this: none of us 3-4 kitchen stuff was cooking, eating or drinking, no food or drinks was on any counters, we just stood there mesmerized by her “performance” and forgot everything else in the world! When she was not around for a while, the kitchen almost went out business, only a horse-stable like storage room left with the boss and the gay friend living in it.
I thought my shy, gay friend was “safe”, but she was about to amorously “attack” him in the last montage behind the steamed windows — my Unconscious probably could not bear witnessing whatever consequence might be and suddenly brought me to a sunny, bright, open Safari to “hunt”chocolates on rocky hills, meet my smiling and relaxed father, and safely encounter a bunch of gigantic pinkish-orange lions, tigers, wolves, snakes with feet, scorpions with crab claws…
“I don’t dream about much of anything. I rarely remember my dreams.”
Having vivid dreams has been a part of my identity since very young. We classmates and friends remembered my them, but I forgot most of them, unless they’re traumatic or recorded in my journals. I still remember by heart some dreams from 10 years old on…. I could clearly remember most of my xLO dreams during LE, but now, they’re fading away fast — I can’t remember when and where he said this or that, described in my older posts… 😳 I think this may show that my last LE ember is definitely gone — its memories losing all the emotional colors and “concrete” contents, some related dreams are also scattered with wind…
Based on Jungian theories, most people dream daily but they remember dreams only when their conscious mind is open to dialogue with Unconscious (in forms of dreams), which wants to communicate with the conscious mind especially during stressful times. When one’s shadow is done through various means — dreams provide essential data for the work, one dreams less or even none.
“I’m surprised you would dream about anyone on here as you haven’t seen us IRL.”
Well, in an anonymous forum, one’s physical face is irrelevant; one cannot physically glimmer for others. But posters’ words can definitely draw vivid personality images of complex “colors” in the listener’s mind: some pleasant, some repulsive, some strong, some more vulnerable, some controlling, some LE-originated cranky/grumpy ….
One gets a “peek”/sense at others’ emotions, mind, and soul as long as the speaker speak authentically without fear, without flattery, without validation/empathy seeking… In time, one MAY find kindred spirits / invisible friends / soulmates, but hardly LO without a pair-bond glimmer. Seriously, what do you think?🤔
As discussed in the past, I could NOT mentally piece together most of 👻 👻 ‘s “images”, but somehow I intuitively got a few of their physical features — height, hair color/length, facial shape, etc… If one ghost has got into my dream, then that image is crystallized, unless I see a realistic picture of him or her, which could vastly differ from my mental depiction.
So far, only 6 of you wandered into my dreamland with 6 vivid, detailed narratives… A recent dream was blurry, I could not recall any primary narrative or details but flashes of the 👻’s face, exactly as before….
I think/suspect that such a phenomenon probably indicates that my chats with them have produced important psychological impact — in a COO idiom, (their existence and my interaction with them) have poked a bee’s hive in my Unconscious, with or without my conscious awareness…. Needless to say, analysis of those dreams fascinates the dreamer… 😴
What is your new “work” situation? Have you changed the job yet?
A typo: “When one’s shadow WORK is done through various means….”
MJ
“Here I thought you were about to brief me on the new Broadway musical, “The Queen of Versailles” starring Kristen Chenowith.
It showed up on my feed (Because I adored her in “Wicked”) and because one click means I get a thousand other new feeds about it now..”
You’re making fun of ABBA but you’ll sit through “Wicked”? 🙂 I don’t really like musicals. I’m not all that into ABBA, but I do like disco.
“I think you’re talking about Lea Michele aren’t you? Yeah, I’ve always thought she’s really super cute and not a terrible actress either.”
Are you able to watch a show in which you’re not finding someone hot? I can’t imagine being married to you and trying to sit down and watch a movie. 🙂
Speaking of which … whilst you grease up the TV, I’ll watch my “Sex and the City” clips with Mikhail Baryshnikov on my laptop. There are a ton of guys on that show, but when he shows up, the contest is over. Everyone else can just go home. He’s so damn sexy.
Miss Snow,
“Yes, she’s between 20s — 30s, energetic and feisty as I mentally pieced together previously. She never stopped moving in the dream, verbally persuading me to go out in the darkness, coming home in the dawn, describing her dating experiences to us and coaching us the kitchen stuff, and unblushingly and unhesitantly flirting with male strangers in and out of the kitchen… 👀”
I like the description, although it does not sound like me. 🙂
“…meet my smiling and relaxed father, and safely encounter a bunch of gigantic pinkish-orange lions, tigers, wolves, snakes with feet, scorpions with crab claws…”
Your dad was there? That’s nice to see him again. I have had dreams where my deceased relatives appear.
“Having vivid dreams has been a part of my identity since very young. ”
Do you sleep deeply? I have trouble sleeping so I may not get into the deep REM state ?
“I can’t remember when and where he said this or that, described in my older posts… 😳 I think this may show that my last LE ember is definitely gone — its memories losing all the emotional colors and “concrete” contents, some related dreams are also scattered with wind…”
That’s good.
“Well, in an anonymous forum, one’s physical face is irrelevant ”
I have a general image of what people look like on here, but I’m probably wrong.
” In time, one MAY find kindred spirits / invisible friends / soulmates, but hardly LO without a pair-bond glimmer. Seriously, what do you think?🤔”
Are you asking if it would be hard to glimmer for posters on here without meeting them? I personally couldn’t. I would need to meet people in person. Experience their whole essence. Voice, mannerisms, physicality, etc. But there are people who glimmer for those they meet online.
What is your new “work” situation? Have you changed the job yet?
Not yet.
“You’re making fun of ABBA but you’ll sit through “Wicked”? 🙂”
Marcia
My Ex was in musicals in High School and sort of got me hooked on them over the years. It was common for us to go into Windy City to go see the big ones when they came around. This of course before we had kids and I could blow my wad of cash on her for a night on the town. I miss those days.. 😂
Kristin Chenoweth is a classically trained vocalist and I find that very sexy and attractive in a Woman. (Don’t even get me started on a Woman that can play the piano too. Thats Ultra-next-level-sexy!! 😂)
Her voice inflections on the soundtrack are amazing and she seems like just a fun and very lively and likable person.
“Are you able to watch a show in which you’re not finding someone hot? I can’t imagine being married to you and trying to sit down and watch a movie. 🙂”
When you write like that, you sound just like my Ex. I was that a$$-wipe husband making all sorts of comments about hot Women on I’d see on tv. Which I suppose proves again why I’m divorced, single, lonely and a miserable limerent now.
“Speaking of which … whilst you grease up the TV”
Why you gotta make that sound so pervy? 😂
You think I do things like that? Why that’s,, thats f%@#ing disgusting..
😝🤣
“I’ll watch my “Sex and the City” clips with Mikhail Baryshnikov on my laptop. There are a ton of guys on that show, but when he shows up, the contest is over. Everyone else can just go home. He’s so damn sexy.”
Well I don’t get it thats for sure. My Ex was a huge fan of Richard Gere. Felt that way any time he was in anything. She about went out her mind when he was in “Chicago”. I didn’t get that either and still don’t. However I did feel like he played the role of Billy Flynn well in that movie.
As for Mikhail Baryshnikov, I’ll tell you what I always told her..
I look better.. 😉😆
MJ,
“Kristin Chenoweth is a classically trained vocalist and I find that very sexy and attractive in a Woman. (Don’t even get me started on a Woman that can play the piano too. Thats Ultra-next-level-sexy!! 😂)
Her voice inflections on the soundtrack are amazing and she seems like just a fun and very lively and likable person.”
I don’t doubt her talent but she seems cheer-leaderish to me. Overly chirpy.
“When you write like that, you sound just like my Ex. I was that a$$-wipe husband making all sorts of comments about hot Women on I’d see on tv.”
I had a male roommate when I was in my 20s. So I know. It’s why compliments from your side don’t always land. Tbh. The bar is so low.
“Well I don’t get it thats for sure. ”
It’s not for you to get. You’re not his target audience. 🙂
“My Ex was a huge fan of Richard Gere. ”
Oh, yeah, he’s smoking hot. 🙂
“As for Mikhail Baryshnikov, I’ll tell you what I always told her..
I look better.. 😉😆”
Sure. 🙂 The guy playing Mr. Big is hot, too. And Blair Underwood. I’d say those three of all the guys on that show are hot. And the guy playing Burger. He’s cute. I’d know if I’d say hot.
👒 👠 Marcia,
“I like the description, although it does not sound like me. 🙂”
Then how on earth I had such vivid images and narratives of you? Derived from my mind’s impressions /interpretations based on our chats? Are they scarily inaccurate? Or some Jungian follower would say every dream figure is a manifestation of the dreamer’s Unconscious? So you, Marcia in my dream, is just a part of me? 🙈
I’ve read a little bit about Jungian dream theory that says dream analysis is really, really complex, and an outsider “expert” hears/sees differently from the dreamer — no one can TRULY validate another’s internal world in visceral level. Jung himself guided/advised psychologists to bend over to dreamers’ own interpretations that would benefit the dreamer-patients, and to divert their “detrimental” interpretations. It’s entirely another field of “Mental Art” — not sure if this is an appropriate word.
“Your dad was there? That’s nice to see him again. I have had dreams where my deceased relatives appear.”
The whole dream involves 6 scenes, not tightly occurred next to each other, especially the last one, in which I ran into my parents walking together up the hill (it seemed I was working there?). They were both smiling ☺️ and told me they were having a nice/relaxed time strolling around under bright sunlight when some tourists were hunting chocolates among rocky hills out of our sight. I noticed, there was no wind in the whole valley — a bit dessert like without enough trees, a kind of surreal.
Later I wondered whether it’s a “heaven” scene where all strange animals and few humans peacefully co-existed seemingly, managed by one short Asian looking man, he has a magical calming hand to them. I can’t remember at all what I was chatting with him about, but had an impression I was working with him there. (I vaguely remember that myself curiously stared into the second creature’s eyes, then the crab shaped scorpion walked back). But my concept of a “heaven” is really drawn from Hollywood movies.
“Do you sleep deeply? I have trouble sleeping so I may not get into the deep REM state ?”
I don’t know, but I can’t sleep long (3-6), or my body would slip into depressive mode, very scary. And I function better while taking a nap (with meditation) to be totally refreshed – a biphasic sleeper. But I dream even during 10 minutes nap.
Since young, I was a my own dream teller, perhaps a consequence of cptsd? — had a lot of memorable nightmares; I guess I was a nervous, fearful kid/youth — fearful of Mother’s unpredictable moods, coldness or loss of temper. With her, nothing was ever certain, so I was habitually worried/prepared that things, not logistical stuff, would suddenly change with or without reasons.
I have no troubles to fall in sleep most of the time (99.9%) — almost every time in the subway. I had several sleep tests done in the past for narcolepsy and sleep apnea (due to falling in sleep in driving), I never had narcolepsy and a light apnea only once, which magically disappeared later (supposedly very rare). Machines detected normal REM activities and deep sleep stage, but not excessive.
“I have a general image of what people look like on here, but I’m probably wrong.”
So you have one, too 🫂 — Thank god, I’m NOT alone! How those images formed in your head? How would we ever know if they’re accurate or even close to our naked eyes’ impression? Wouldn’t our impressions based their words and our individualistic interpretation form different images for the same person? Let’s say 💦 🪣 🦎 MJ would look different in your head from mine?
”Are you asking if it would be hard to glimmer for posters on here without meeting them?”
Mental “glimmer” for LO/LE is definitely possible, people have formed friendship /penpals based on their online interactions (for over 40 years based on a BBC recent news!). But is such an internal glimmer same or less compared to Tunnov’s pair-bonding glimmer for a possible LE? Is former stronger or weaker than the latter? I cannot just assume that written words would have more power than physical impressions, right?
“I personally couldn’t. I would need to meet people in person. Experience their whole essence. Voice, mannerisms, physicality, etc. “
I told you what happened to my own chatroom a long time ago… After that I always question my own mind, especially with my mental OCD— was it OCD, an online obsession, or addictive idealization/illusion? I think I was quite naive back then, very immature to detect flattery from genuine compliments… But I did learn that pair-bonding glimmer and mental glimmer might be quite different, at least to me back then.
Now as we all have physically declined, and psychologically matured (this could be discussed in the latest blog), would our mental/spiritual glimmer sync (more) with our pair-bonding glimmer? Charlie Chopin, along with a couple of famous actors, could still fall in love at age of 82, could we women, too? What about that London couple (89, 92) “fell in love” instantly in the subway and got married in 3 months…
“But there are people who glimmer for those they meet online.”
I think that’s mental/spiritual glimmer, which in theory would be much stronger and last longer, but can it assimilate or transcend the physical glimmer — the one is whimsical?
I want to ask you a question from your previous message: do you feel you’re seen or known more ever since you got on LwL five years ago? Did your cptsd get a slightly better? Or did the release of your LEs make you feel less anxious in your reality? Or whatever you felt/got here does not transfer into your reality, thus you still feel “not known and seen” enough?
Obviously, none of us can be your physically close friends, so what are we to you? Some invisible “ghosts” circling around/above your head? You know my answer to my own questions…. My care and focus have always been in our upper end…
My curious mind often got me into troubles, but I can’t help it… It asks questions but rarely change its directions, unless some hardcore evidence indicate a direction is truly wrong… The “worse” is my intuition which just does NOT bend over by the “pure” logical mind… 😀
Why human mind is so complex? Don’t worry, with that lifetime Longing gone, I’m steering my ship steadily, despite vivid wired, wild dreams — they are NOT monsters, but windows to peek/understand one’s SELVES… 😊 After all, no one is perfect, (whatever “perfect” means 🙄)
Last night or this morning, I had a detailed IT coding/deciphering dream (I can apply a “spy” job for the World War III now… 🤭 ), involving several planes transferring as a passenger without knowing any destination… . 🧐
Typo: “despite vivid, weird, wild dreams…”
Marcia,
People dream in REM stage, and in deep sleep, one does not dream. The daily REM + Deep sleeps should be at least 25% of your total sleeping hours — very important for mind’s rest/relaxation. When I occasionally missed REM or Deep sleep, my mood was terrible/horrible. If you have a smart watch, it will tell you exactly percentage for the 4 elements of a night’s sleep: Awake, REM, Light, and Deep sleep minutes.
This data should be interesting to Dr L — When still in LE, my REM + DEEP sleeps ran from 0% to 35%. After LE and that Longing are gone, they two ran from 8%-51% and stayed mostly above 30%. I could NOT believe that they could even run over 50%!! My awake time has been reduced to the way below average every single day. Who says that LE has no/little effect on one’s physiological health?
Last night/this morning, my REM exceeded its average time (30% alone, deep: 13%, average) and I invented and remembered my own IT codes system in my dream, but could not figure out my final destination of several transferred flights with The United Airlines….🤔
My dreams could be converted to detailed, infinitely imaginative and fascinating plays; do we have a masterful screenplay writer here to take the high-end task? — “a writer, a writer, my kingdom for a writer!” 😊
Snow,
“Then how on earth I had such vivid images and narratives of you? ”
You is crazy. 🙂 I’m kidding.
I was thinking more about your description of me … and there is some truth to it. Out in public I can be lively and extrovert … but there’s this other side of me that is a bit anti-social and much more slower-moving. That’s my private side.
“So you, Marcia in my dream, is just a part of me? 🙈”
Yes
“I’ve read a little bit about Jungian dream theory that says dream analysis is really, really complex, and an outsider “expert” hears/sees differently from the dreamer — ”
I think dreams have to mean something. To what extent, I don’t know. And I think sometimes people go overboard with trying to interpret them. You wrote that you had previous dreams about your LO. That makes sense. You were limerent. But now you don’t dream about him. That also makes sense. You’ve come to a sense of closure about him and made peace with the LE.
“But I dream even during 10 minutes nap.”
Do you? You must be a person who dreams a lot.
“I have no troubles to fall in sleep most of the time (99.9%) — almost every time in the subway. ”
You can fall asleep in the subway? Good night! I need pills and a fan going and a dark room. 🙂
“So you have one, too 🫂 — Thank god, I’m NOT alone! How those images formed in your head?”
Yes, but with people I’ve messaged with a lot. Some of my impression of what you look like is probably informed by the female celebrities we’ve discussed. I picture you as slender, dark hair, slightly tomboyish … but is that you or is that Binoche? 🙂
“Let’s say 💦 🪣 🦎 MJ would look different in your head from mine?”
Something tells me we have the same image of him. 🙂
“Mental “glimmer” for LO/LE is definitely possible, people have formed friendship /penpals based on their online interactions (for over 40 years based on a BBC recent news!).”
Yes, very possible. I just don’t think I could become limerent for someone I had never met in person. I need to be in their presence. Although I did as a teenager become limerent with male celebrities. But that was decades ago.
” Charlie Chopin, along with a couple of famous actors, could still fall in love at age of 82, could we women, too?”
He’s a bad example. He’s like Errol Flynn. Had a history of very young wives/girlfriends. Flynn’s were underage.
“What about that London couple (89, 92) “fell in love” instantly in the subway and got married in 3 months…”
I guess it’s possible to fall in love at any age.
“I think that’s mental/spiritual glimmer, which in theory would be much stronger and last longer, but can it assimilate or transcend the physical glimmer — the one is whimsical?”
Idk. I would agree that a mental glimmer lasts longer but the physical glimmer can be a totally separate beast. One doesn’t necessarily imply the other. At least for me. I know you’re different.
“do you feel you’re seen or known more ever since you got on LwL five years ago? Did your cptsd get a slightly better?”
Yes. Better. But it didn’t happen immediately. I started understanding more after … idk … about 2 years on here.
“Or whatever you felt/got here does not transfer into your reality, thus you still feel “not known and seen” enough?”
I still feel that way, yes. But I understand more about limerence and what is causing it, in my case.
“Obviously, none of us can be your physically close friends, so what are we to you? ”
Online friends. I have had one from another site become a real-life friend. We text and occasionally talk on the phone.
“Why human mind is so complex? ”
It is complex, and people are complex.
“Last night or this morning, I had a detailed IT coding/deciphering dream (I can apply a “spy” job for the World War III now… 🤭 ), involving several planes transferring as a passenger without knowing any destination… . 🧐”
You have a vivid dream life. 🙂
“People dream in REM stage, and in deep sleep, one does not dream. The daily REM + Deep sleeps should be at least 25% of your total sleeping hours — very important for mind’s rest/relaxation. When I occasionally missed REM or Deep sleep, my mood was terrible/horrible. If you have a smart watch, it will tell you exactly percentage for the 4 elements of a night’s sleep: Awake, REM, Light, and Deep sleep minutes.”
I don’t know then. I don’t know why I don’t dream but I do have trouble sleeping. Both getting to sleep and staying asleep.
Lady Marcia,
“You are crazy. 🙂 I’m kidding.”
You might think I AM really crazy if you know what’s going on in my waking mind all the time, might fly beyond the Earth or occasionally jumped out of the galaxy 🌌….
“I was thinking more about your description of me … and there is some truth to it. “
I was/am positive there is some truth to it. 😉
“Out in public I can be lively and extrovert …”
I can be extrovert only in my mother tongue. When I chose to, I could “perform” the center of a group with an ease like my Dad. But most of the time, I chose to be quiet listening, and observant — much more fun to watch shows.
I did/do not like flirt or being flirted with… I did not like attention in public, but less shy and more relaxed nowadays to speak in a group — that Longing, followed by self consciousness, is gone. 🙃
“but there’s this other side of me that is a bit anti-social and much more slower-moving. That’s my private side.”
Thus there was a half of our “shared bedroom” was invisible in my dream — your side. 🤔
[“So you, Marcia in my dream, is just a part of me? 🙈”]
“Yes”
So there was a simplistic side of my Unconscious visible through the dorm door ajar, and another unknown side, like a mental Tardis? 😳
“I think dreams have to mean something. To what extent, I don’t know. “
Mark my word, every single dream, tiny or gigantic, all has meanings. They are activities of our Unconscious digesting, balancing new inputs or handling freshly triggered, some past memories, etc.
“And I think sometimes people go overboard with trying to interpret them. “
I don’t think there is standard measurement for “overboard” or just right, who is the authority to say? There are different kinds and levels of stresses involved and dreamer are suffering from them in their individualistic ways. A good therapist would help monitor patients’ own interpretations, checking whether they’re beneficial or detrimental to the clients.
“You wrote that you had previous dreams about your LO. That makes sense. You were limerent. But now you don’t dream about him. That also makes sense. You’ve come to a sense of closure about him and made peace with the LE.”
You’re look at an overall picture here from the content of the dreams, which is important. I also check colors of the dreams that reflect my moods in the dreams, in addition to my emotions in the dream.
“Do you? You must be a person who dreams a lot.”
I’m literally a dreaming dreamer — a consequence of a busy and complex mind.
“You can fall asleep in the subway? Good night! I need pills and a fan going and a dark room. 🙂”
I have the condition called “Motion sickness”, so anything moving would quickly “rock” me to sleep including me on the driver’s seat, except when I actively do walking or biking. Once I almost fell in sleep swimming in the middle of pool and woke up by chocking on water. I fell in sleep in almost every business meeting — all boring. In the past few years, I got better by cutting down Carbo food or on 1.5 or 2 meals a day diet. I don’t want to increase coffee intake.
Your sleeping condition sounds more alarming. To me, it indicates you have some unresolved or unknown underline stresses/anxiety. That must be so exhausting for you most of the time… ☹️
“Yes, but with people I’ve messaged with a lot.”
Of course! Mental images of an invisible 👻 can only come from length, width and depth of dialogues/debates. Chitchats rarely do.
“Some of my impression of what you look like is probably informed by the female celebrities we’ve discussed. I picture you as slender, dark hair, slightly tomboyish … but is that you or is that Binoche? 🙂”
You’re talking about Binoche! I wish I were ever that attractive (never tomboyish but melancholy while young.)… now this 286 yrs old, the great, great grandma of Sir 🦎 look much worse, lucky that here is not a dating site… 😇
“Something tells me we have the same image of him. 🙂”
Most likely… 🤭. But his mental images has changed over time after his tears began to dry and he sometimes humored your ladyship… I enjoyed watching your hilarious tangos and you just put him in his shoes👟 … 😂
“Yes, very possible. “
If mental glimmer is “very possible”, then is this glimmer Eros/pair-bonding related? What love elements in Greek terminology are involved here? Mind/soul-bonding only? Then what about our regular body 🔁 mind inter-relationship? Nothing at all? I am just throwing questions…🧐
“I just don’t think I could become limerent for someone I had never met in person. I need to be in their presence.”
I totally understand. Knowledge and intuition of our five fleshy & complex neural senses could be quite (not necessarily) different from mind/soul knowledge and intuition, brought merely by words and their varied interpretations…. I want BOTH kinds to be integrated.
“Although I did as a teenager become limerent with male celebrities. But that was decades ago.”
I did right after my divorce, and felt so duped by my own shallow or insensible mind and “wishful” ignorance… only after that I learned some differences of two kinds of knowledge and intuitions, and then understood Wittgenstein’s frustrations with limitations of language.
“I guess it’s possible to fall in love at any age.”
Based on Fisher and my own experiences, I know it IS possible to fall in love at any age. You can’t convince me otherwise… my mental state stays between 20s-30s, just like what I dreamed. 💭
“I would agree that a mental glimmer lasts longer but the physical glimmer can be a totally separate beast. One doesn’t necessarily imply the other. “
True that one doesn’t certainly imply the other (some cultural scripts believe it does). There might be differences between two “beasts”, particularly when we were young, our libido sky-rocketing, and our mind was simply idiotic…. However, body and mind are never totally disconnected at any age.
“At least for me. I know you’re different.”
Yes, we’re different based on our chats; I’m mostly heady in the mind (the most creative and sexiest organ), like a bird 🐦🔥 soaring in the sky… But I don’t want to float above clouds most of the time; body and mind should never be separated, because they affect each other every single day.
“Yes. Better. But it didn’t happen immediately. I started understanding more after … idk … about 2 years on here.”
That’s a big gain! I don’t want to brag mine again… annoying others. 😀
“I still feel that way, yes. But I understand more about limerence and what is causing it, in my case.”
I still think that you need urgently to resolve your under radar issues; otherwise, your sleep difficult is the price to pay, which accumulatively will take a toll in your physical health maybe soon.
“Online friends. I have had one from another site become a real-life friend. We text and occasionally talk on the phone.”
A mediocre friendship? What’s the point? Do you get your wished personal care or some inspirations from it?
“It is complex, and people are complex.”
I don’t want complexity in myself, let alone in others. It’s so tiring sometimes to “decode” human psychology, mind, and emotions. However, it’s also curiosity provoking, even exciting when I’m in a more relaxed, inspired mode…
“You have a vivid dream life. 🙂”
One can almost never use the word” boring” to describe my lone wolf’s life, waking or sleeping…. If I want, I can make something out of nothing and laugh my head off over it… 😆 🤭🤣. I will tell you a story a day for 1000001 nights… so you’d never throw me out to a dark street in the Whimsical, Wild West.… 😊
“I don’t know then. I don’t know why I don’t dream but I do have trouble sleeping. Both getting to sleep and staying asleep.”
Don’t dream? Perhaps you don’t believe the Unconscious stuff, which is fine. But a constant deprivation of sleep is the worst chronic health condition; would you please do something about this troubled-sleeping matter? Have you talked about it with your ongoing therapist?
I don’t have enough time to sleep nowadays…. If there were two Marcias here, I’d have to quit my work, full-time chirping here… 🐥
Lady Marcia,
Almost forgot to tell you my synchronicity experience in a supermarket this early evening —
After shouting, “A writer, a writer, my kingdom for a writer” this morning, guess what happened?! A screenplay writer, Hollywood actor dropped right in front of me on the waiting line to cashier!
He was just ahead of me and I didn’t notice this guy at all, while listening to my EarPod and hugging a carbon-box of grocery . It’s less than 8 lbs.
This man saw me first, but I still didn’t notice him. Suddenly he said, “if anytime you want to lay your box down, you can put it on top of my cart.”
I was startled a bit and paused my EarPod. I thanked him and said it’s not that heavy. Only by then, I noticed, he’s an Eastern Indian/American mix, 6’ feet, a bit of bulky, warm, smiling, somewhat good-looking with big, round eyes. He had a little bit accent and looked in his early 40s.
He’s a 💯 straight man for sure. A possible glimmer? #4 at most, and he stroke the first line! He has maybe 1% femininity on his whole bearing. There is no comparison with that womanly-dressed man!
Then, we chatted a bit as the line slowly moving. I complained about the dirty shopping carts and said I often picked up those empty carbon box for my small quantity of stuff. He said something like, “you have what we call Farmer’s Arms”
“I guess I have two strong farmer’s arms.”
Then he asked, “Ready for a holiday?”
“Hmmm… A sort of. It’s not that big for me.”
“It’s not big for me. I’d use this time to write.”
“Are you a writer? What do you write?”
“Yes. A screenplay writer. Also an actor, Hollywood stuff… “(can’t remember exact words)
I almost backed up two steps with my bulging eyes 😳
I just shouted to have a writer, then one appeared a few hours later! Can’t believe my ears.
I almost said that sometimes I write, too; but swallow down my words…
He could be suitable for a date, but I don’t want any casual date, although not from an app. I was quite sure that I would not want to sit down across him for tea/coffee, despite he’s a play writer and an actor.
He’s sensitive enough seeing that I was not interested in further chat… so we parted when going to two cashiers. I didn’t say goodbye afterwards or turned my head to see who finished paying first. I forgot about him as soon as I walked out the supermarket sliding door… until much later.
The life is but a dream….😴
Snow,
“When I chose to, I could “perform” the center of a group with an ease like my Dad. But most of the time, I chose to be quiet listening, and observant — much more fun to watch shows.”
I can do both.
“I did/do not like flirt or being flirted with… I did not like attention in public”
At my age, I will take any and all flirtation. 🙂
“but less shy and more relaxed nowadays to speak in a group — that Longing, followed by self consciousness, is gone. 🙃”
I’m not longing for it but I do miss being noticed.
Aren’t you a teacher? Aren’t you speaking in a group every day?
“Thus there was a half of our “shared bedroom” was invisible in my dream — your side. 🤔”
We may share an apartment but NOT a bedroom. I would hope there’d be stuff going on in my bedroom I wouldn’t want you to witness. 🙂
“So there was a simplistic side of my Unconscious visible through the dorm door ajar, and another unknown side, like a mental Tardis? 😳”
I don’t know what you mean.
“I don’t think there is standard measurement for “overboard” or just right, who is the authority to say? ”
Depends on what the dream is. There are certain universal dreams. A lot of people have them. They go to school and aren’t prepared for a test (even though they haven’t been in school in decades). These dreams are common. Probably a reflection of some kind of anxiety, as you say.
“I’m literally a dreaming dreamer — a consequence of a busy and complex mind.”
I have a lot of day dreams, so to speak. Have a whole inner world going on underneath what people see me do outwardly. But I don’t dream that much at night.
“Once I almost fell in sleep swimming in the middle of pool and woke up by chocking on water.”
That sounds dangerous.
” I fell in sleep in almost every business meeting — all boring.”
I agree. They’re so frigging boring.
“Your sleeping condition sounds more alarming. To me, it indicates you have some unresolved or unknown underline stresses/anxiety. That must be so exhausting for you most of the time… ☹️”
It’s also changing hormones. Do NOT get old. There’s nothing to recommend it. 🙂 I get enough sleep to function. But I would like to work on sleep quality.
“You’re talking about Binoche! I wish I were ever that attractive (never tomboyish but melancholy while young.)… now this 286 yrs old, the great, great grandma of Sir 🦎 look much worse, lucky that here is not a dating site… 😇”
Well, Binoche isn’t young, either, but she’s still attractive. And, IMO, appearance changes over time but charisma/sexiness doesn’t fade.
” But his mental images has changed over time after his tears began to dry ”
I had forgotten about the tears! Why did you bring that up? 🙂
“If mental glimmer is “very possible”, then is this glimmer Eros/pair-bonding related? ”
I think you’ve misunderstood me in the past and think I separate the physical/emotional/mental glimmers. I don’t. If I feel a strong physical glimmer, I also feel an emotional one. (I’m not a man. :)) That being said, I can feel a mental and/or emotional glimmer and not a physical one. Not sure what causes that.
“Yes, we’re different based on our chats; I’m mostly heady in the mind (the most creative and sexiest organ), like a bird 🐦🔥 soaring in the sky… ”
Whereas I operate a lot from my emotions.
“I still think that you need urgently to resolve your under radar issues”
Working on it.
“A mediocre friendship? What’s the point? Do you get your wished personal care or some inspirations from it?”
Friendship to me is … a person you like and enjoy chatting with and feel some sense of simpatico and support.
“I don’t want complexity in myself, let alone in others.”
That’s what people are. They’re complex. Read the posts on this site. If people were easy, this site wouldn’t exist.
“One can almost never use the word” boring” to describe my lone wolf’s life, waking or sleeping”
We differ on this as well. I have plenty going on in my mind. I’d like to have more of it move into my actual life.
“Have you talked about it with your ongoing therapist?”
Not yet, no. We mostly focus on all the limerence crap.
“A screenplay writer, Hollywood actor dropped right in front of me on the waiting line to cashier!”
Oh. How exciting. I know where you live as I looked up your concert when you were writing about it. I bet you run into celebrities all the time. 🙂
“This man saw me first, but I still didn’t notice him. Suddenly he said, “if anytime you want to lay your box down, you can put it on top of my cart.””
And how did you respond? “Is your cart big enough for my box?” Sorry. Couldn’t help myself. 🙂
“Only by then, I noticed, he’s an Eastern Indian/American mix, 6’ feet, a bit of bulky, warm, smiling, somewhat good-looking with big, round eyes. He had a little bit accent and looked in his early 40s.”
I wonder who it was ….
“I was quite sure that I would not want to sit down across him for tea/coffee, despite he’s a play writer and an actor.”
Because he wasn’t your type ?
Miss Marcia,
“At my age, I will take any and all flirtation. 🙂”
Since I was 6 (probably after that trauma with its memory loss), I never liked or hated public attention. Later, it just became a mental habit no matter at what age. I loved my town because no one really pays that much attention to anyone else, no matter if you look like a Hellen of Troy or Casanova of Venice.
Again despite the warning from my LO#4.5 (a psychologist, not mine), I have always cared more about what I like/love first, instead of being liked or not — too passive! I know it sounds very arrogant, but I couldn’t help it since young… I was a secretly willful, single and lonely child — a lone wolf getting too much unwanted attention and got hammered down a lot by the COO system…. 😠
“Aren’t you a teacher? Aren’t you speaking in a group every day?”
I’m not shy in my own classes, but in colleague’s classes or socializing with my peers. I always felt an outsider, regardless my ESL with accent. Most of my close friends were “foreigners”/immigrants, but they all left here.
“We may share an apartment but NOT a bedroom. I would hope there’d be stuff going on in my bedroom I wouldn’t want you to witness. 🙂”
If you always go out dating and coming back between 2-3am, waking me up, I would not want to share an apartment with you, either. 😃
Because in the dream we shared the bedroom, the same job, and the other half room was invisible, after writing you, I figured out that you in the dream was just a part of my selves — I was observing another unknown part of myself manifesting itself through your dream persona, your habit, your public behavior… of course, other bystanders might mean some remote parts of me as well, or my subconscious (hidden deeply) thoughts/emotions about them.
A room in the dream almost always represents one’s mental room/Unconscious space, which could be infinitely big/stretchy like a Tardis. (from Dr. Who)
[So there was a simplistic side of my Unconscious visible through the dorm door ajar, and another unknown side, like a mental Tardis? 😳]
“I don’t know what you mean.”
That means I can could clearly one side of my mind; but the other side is invisible, and I could not tell how big or deep it is. Jung thinks the Unconscious is “infinite” recording all the stuff passed or stored in us since our birth.
“Depends on what the dream is. There are certain universal dreams. A lot of people have them. They go to school and aren’t prepared for a test (even though they haven’t been in school in decades). These dreams are common. Probably a reflection of some kind of anxiety, as you say.”
True. However dream motifs could be similar among some dreamers, but causes of their stresses vary. One could be stressed in the sense of insecurity at work or relationship and then having repeated dreams falling exams (long after one’s school years). I used to have those high anxiety driven exam dreams when I was already giving exams to my students.
“I have a lot of day dreams, so to speak. Have a whole inner world going on underneath what people see me do outwardly. But I don’t dream that much at night.”
Jung would say that those “stresses” are pushed down into your Unconscious since you might be unwilling to face/reflect on them. Then repressed, they could disturb your sleep length or quality.
“That sounds dangerous.”
After that, I changed diet and nowadays, I don’t fall in sleep in all moving vehicles, definitely not when my body is actively moving.
”I agree. They’re so frigging boring.”
Just learned the new word “frigging” here, it’s such a good word that we say a lot in COO! 😆
“Well, Binoche isn’t young, either, but she’s still attractive. And, IMO, appearance changes over time but charisma/sexiness doesn’t fade.”
Gosh, Binoche is still so dashingly attractive! She would be always my top idol! To keep feminine charisma/sexiness takes some disciplinary work — good sleep, no junkie/heavy food, no/little alcohol/juice drinking, exercises, maintain optimistic attitude/gratitude towards life, desiring/wanting less.
”I had forgotten about the tears! Why did you bring that up? 🙂”
To show that one’s mental images of others could change/evolve as contents and moods of their talks change. Without a realistic picture, mental images are elastic painted by mere words.
“I think you’ve misunderstood me in the past and think I separate the physical/emotional/mental glimmers. I don’t. If I feel a strong physical glimmer, I also feel an emotional one. “
I’m the same way here, as well as all limerents here. I never had any pure physical/sexual attraction by anyone no matter how athletically beautiful s/he is.
“That being said, I can feel a mental and/or emotional glimmer and not a physical one. Not sure what causes that.”
This is what I was asking you — without physical glimmer, where was your mental/emotional glimmer from⁉️ Ming/soul❓ What made Andrea Bocellie glimmer at his first and second wife? How did they “appear” in his mind? (His sons are quite handsome)
“Whereas I operate a lot from my emotions.”
Emotions are stored in mind as well as in body. Due to my COO training, I habitually hide my emotions behind shyness. You wanted to jump off cliff with your LO, I wanted to soar up with LO — Life is the soaring of bird❗️
“Friendship to me is … a person you like and enjoy chatting with and feel some sense of simpatico and support.”
Yes, definitely! I felt this way when I needed an ear, simpatico and support (I occasionally talk with my ex-in-law and his current wife in LA, together or separately). But when there is little stress going on in my life, I’m quite content and joyful just by myself. I’m my own steady ear, simpatico and support and can share them with another chosen one. When I feel strong, I could be a Joan of Arc.
“That’s what people are. They’re complex. Read the posts on this site. If people were easy, this site wouldn’t exist.”
Gosh, us limerents are so whinny, “sticky/slimy”, indecisive… I feel so embarrassed/mortified even just to think about that I was possibly appearing all these in my last LE.
“We differ on this as well. I have plenty going on in my mind. I’d like to have more of it move into my actual life.”
I’ve been dreaming my whole life to actualize my dreams in reality… but when they are in realistic shortage, then imagining/envisioning them day and night would do, it’s a mood regulation. I don’t mean only romance stuff, but all aspects of life. Remember, my enneagram is insatiable curiosity about life — it IS an adventure, considering how short it is.
“Not yet, no. We mostly focus on all the limerence crap.”
That’s good, since you haven’t totally come out of it yet.
“Oh. How exciting. I know where you live as I looked up your concert when you were writing about it. I bet you run into celebrities all the time. 🙂”
Yes, in my town you can possibly pump into any celebrity in any field you could think of. 90% of service people in restaurants are B or C level actors /actresses /writers /painters /musicians…. Once a long time ago, I was standing next to Keenu Reeves while waiting for the traffic light. He was alone and looked very ordinary, I did not feel excited since I was never a celebrity chaser. I liked his movie very much.
“And how did you respond? “Is your cart big enough for my box?” Sorry. Couldn’t help myself. 🙂”
🤭 only my INFP Sis could think of such a response in a blink of eyes! 🫂. I was surprised that someone made an “offer” for my grocery box… 😆. I did feel a bit flattered, since I looked tired with puffy eyes. But I was in a genuinely good mood.
“I wonder who it was ….”
I surely would not know. He looked very friendly, and not macho, nor feminine.
“Because he wasn’t your type ?”
He’s not my type, but soft and gentle enough. But like a man, my subconscious 👁️ instantly scanned his face (did/do not know what pants or shoes he was wearing and forgot to check his finger for ring) and tried to envision whether I could get physically intimate with him — Nope! The answer was definitely NO, by my rarely wrong initiation‼️
Then, I lost interests to chat up; I had my questions in my head already but held them back. He caught my interest dropping; he’s a keen observer as a writer….
I have marvelous writers in my own life, who cares who he is! 😊
Snow,
“If you always go out dating and coming back between 2-3am, waking me up, I would not want to share an apartment with you, either. 😃”
We can share an apartment but not a bedroom.
I’m stealth-like and quiet. You won’t hear me come in. 🙂
“A room in the dream almost always represents one’s mental room/Unconscious space, which could be infinitely big/stretchy like a Tardis. (from Dr. Who)”
I’m not nerdy enough to watch Dr. Who. 🙂
“Jung would say that those “stresses” are pushed down into your Unconscious since you might be unwilling to face/reflect on them. Then repressed, they could disturb your sleep length or quality.”
My day dreams aren’t stressors. They’re just tapping into deeper parts of my personality I can’t necessarily access every day.
“After that, I changed diet and nowadays, I don’t fall in sleep in all moving vehicles, definitely not when my body is actively moving.”
Less carbs?
“Just learned the new word “frigging” here, it’s such a good word that we say a lot in COO! 😆”
It’s a great word. 🙂
“To keep feminine charisma/sexiness takes some disciplinary work — good sleep, no junkie/heavy food, no/little alcohol/juice drinking, exercises, maintain optimistic attitude/gratitude towards life, desiring/wanting less.”
Well, IMO, one’s physical appearance is one thing. That will age. No matter what you do. Charisma/sexiness is a quality. Someone who has it has it forever.
“To show that one’s mental images of others could change/evolve as contents and moods of their talks change.”
I’ve evolved my image of him to not include the crying. 🙂
“This is what I was asking you — without physical glimmer, where was your mental/emotional glimmer from⁉️ ”
I meant an emotional feeling of closeness or of being heard. A mental connection like a a great conversation. I could feel that as a start to a friendship. Could have nothing to do with a romantic glimmer. Maybe “glimmer” isn’t the right word.
“But when there is little stress going on in my life, I’m quite content and joyful just by myself. ”
I like having people in my life. I don’t need to be with people every minute of the day, but I do like to be social and go out. Or maintain communication with friends.
“I feel so embarrassed/mortified even just to think about that I was possibly appearing all these in my last LE.”
Most definitely. I cringe at the stuff I’ve done. I think the last one is the only one I maintained a shred of self-respect in not doing too much to chase him.
“I don’t mean only romance stuff, but all aspects of life. ”
I didn’t mean just romance, either.
“Remember, my enneagram is insatiable curiosity about life — it IS an adventure, considering how short it is.”
Yes, you’re an Investigator. 🙂
“Once a long time ago, I was standing next to Keenu Reeves while waiting for the traffic light. He was alone and looked very ordinary, I did not feel excited since I was never a celebrity chaser. I liked his movie very much.”
Did he look good in person? I ask because I have a friend who loves him. I find him a bit bland but in interviews he seems like a good guy.
“I did feel a bit flattered, since I looked tired with puffy eyes. But I was in a genuinely good mood.”
Oh, yes, most definitely sounds flattering.
“He’s not my type, but soft and gentle enough. But like a man, my subconscious 👁️ instantly scanned his face (did/do not know what pants or shoes he was wearing and forgot to check his finger for ring) and tried to envision whether I could get physically intimate with him — Nope! The answer was definitely NO, by my rarely wrong initiation‼️”
I’m the same way. I can tell right away if it’s a yes or no.
“He caught my interest dropping; he’s a keen observer as a writer….”
That’s interesting. Often times the other side is … er … unable to pick up on shifts in interest.
I’m enough of a nerd to watch Dr Who. I’ve seen ALL the episodes. (Well, not the latest season. Since they put it on Disney it no longer shows up in my DVR, making it easy to forget about.) 🙂
I’m also enough of a nerd to have gone to one of the conventions and found myself standing next to a star in the food court. Funny thing—He looked totally normal! Human! (And he did NOT play a human on TV, lol.) I figured he just wanted to get his food and have lunch, so I didn’t bother him. 🙂
Marcia,
You and the European clan chatted the storm, I didn’t even see your reply until now (after a much needed nap)… just wanted to add a side point — after my LE and Longing, I’m so with your points/stand… couldn’t see their muddy situations clearly before, although my intuition was never wrong even back then.… LE (w/ SO) emotions could be so sticky…🤨
“We can share an apartment but not a bedroom.
I’m stealth-like and quiet. You won’t hear me come in. 🙂”
That’s sounds better. And please don’t bring your “professionals” there 😉!
“I’m not nerdy enough to watch Dr. Who. 🙂”
The nerd LO#5 has the whole collection, and I watched the most but could not remember most of the stories, except a few scenes and a couple of Dr. Who’s face. At the time, their imaginations helped open my mind — there was no limits for what Tardis and characters could do in the entire galaxy… I remembered one line, “would you change a piece of history if you can go back….”, and the advice was NOT, because all other consequential events would have to be rearranged thus disturb the universe — its energy fields.
“My day dreams aren’t stressors. They’re just tapping into deeper parts of my personality I can’t necessarily access every day.”
Ah? What do you mean you “can’t access”? Usually, one can access to one’s deep “unknowns”/ “unreachable” parts — shadows, only through dreams. Logical mind mostly gets in the way of “tapping”. Do your daydreams make you feel better?
I don’t daydream that much while out of LE, but become more observant of my environment and imagine/envision a lot, wif A or wif B… about the future; since young, I rarely dwell(ed) on or looked back the past and could forgive and become indifferent to (even forget) anything or anyone. My Granny and Dad are like this.
“Less carbs?”
Yes. But I’m unable to cut them completely, so indulge some before the noon. My sleepiness is much, much better for the past few years… I also had sleepless nights when feeling uncontrollable fear … even out of misunderstandings or misinterpretations… 🙄
“It’s a great word. 🙂”
Frigging sounds so much better than that f* word, which bothers my ear a great deal… 😠
“Well, IMO, one’s physical appearance is one thing. That will age. No matter what you do. Charisma/sexiness is a quality. Someone who has it has it forever.”
Well, if one drinks a lot (a little bit social drinking is fine), loaded with junkie food (affect intestines thus skin), unaware insecurity, or turbulent personality, like Elizabeth Taylor (aged horribly!), they’d lose that Charisma/sexiness… French and British actresses are doing better in general than American ones.
“I’ve evolved my image of him to not include the crying. 🙂”
The same here; I don’t have crying “feature of him” anymore… You did a great job! 👏
“I meant an emotional feeling of closeness or of being heard. A mental connection like a a great conversation. I could feel that as a start to a friendship.”
So this guy can’t ever move from your “friendship” to your “LO” file? A great mental connection and emotional closeness could not help develop your romantic feelings?
“Could have nothing to do with a romantic glimmer. Maybe “glimmer” isn’t the right word.”
That bewitching and damned Glimmer! 🙄 So you’re essentially saying that mental/emotional closeness and connection can never lead to romantic feelings; am I getting you correct? and when you get a LO, you don’t want him to be in the “friendship” file? I wonder 🤔 if you’d ever get a BP — Beloved Pirate 🏴☠️, and just sail to the end of Galaxy 🌌 without worrying about a damn thing in reality…
“I like having people in my life. I don’t need to be with people every minute of the day, but I do like to be social and go out. Or maintain communication with friends.”
I’ll find a bigger apartment for sharing with you! It’s not that I don’t like having people in my life — I was such a lonely, desperate child for siblings! But I found it got dull after a couple encounters, if people share so little with my mentality or sentimentality; If imagination, wisdom and humor were not/less involved, I got bored very fast. Then, exploring the world/life on my own could be more fun! I never liked chitchats, except with xLO…
“Most definitely. I cringe at the stuff I’ve done. I think the last one is the only one I maintained a shred of self-respect in not doing too much to chase him.”
Understand! I’m gratified and proud that I didn’t lose much self-respect due to any inappropriate actions… Mostly I felt embarrassed about some knee-weakening thoughts and sticky LE emotions inside myself.
“Yes, you’re an Investigator. 🙂”
Most of the time a compassionate one; used to be in line with Dostoyevsky (sad) and then with Proust — brilliant, insightful, tasteful humor/sarcasm, and gaily verbose). I can’t help wonder what makes one tick this way or that way, I guess I never grew out of a kid’s millions whys…
“Did he look good in person? I ask because I have a friend who loves him. I find him a bit bland but in interviews he seems like a good guy.”
He looked nice and humble, not showy at all — you won’t believe how many good looking, showy people in the street of my town, and those waiters and waitresses — Zeus’ cupbearers! Reeves had a very tough/sad life story with very respectable personality — having his own principles and firm footing in dealing with Hollywood.
“Oh, yes, most definitely sounds flattering.”
Now, think back, he’s quite warm without any wolfy looks. His face is somewhat roundish (like Colin Firth), which is unsexy to me. Jeremy Irons, Day-Lewis, Huge Grant all have longish face and sharp chins.
“I’m the same way. I can tell right away if it’s a yes or no.”
We’re an INFP! 🤗 That elastic, dazzling P could pick up zillions of things that marvel/mess others’ mind … 😆 If having a Tardis, I could spring/jump to another part of galaxy in a blink eyes; I don’t need much planning for doing anything “adventurous” (has to be physically safe). I find too much planning kills spontaneity fun. 💃
“That’s interesting. Often times the other side is … er … unable to pick up on shifts in interest.”
After seeing it, I believed his words that he’s a writer, who is supposed to keenly observe and sense others well…. ET was very good in this.
I agree with you that most of time, typical heterosexual men are focused, Subconsciously, on their “hunting/saving female targets”, unable to sense the latter’s emotions… a lot of them insensibly believe they would be a winner if they just try harder… 😏
My sweet gay student’s dog (a small bull-mixture), PJ—peanut butter & jelly, has “fallen in love” with me… Whenever I went there to tutor, he became highly excited but still obeyed his master. Last evening (now 4:30am), he went nuts demanding me to pat and hold him, tried to lick me, and then embarrassingly “performed his high” on the floor “singing”, with this four paws up spinning and kicking in the air… 🙈 PJ falls in limerence with a human! 🤨
I had to tell my student that in my last life I was definitely a dog priestess. 🌬️ 🤭
Snow,
“couldn’t see their muddy situations clearly before, although my intuition was never wrong even back then.… LE (w/ SO) emotions could be so sticky…🤨”
Not sure exactly what you mean but even way back at the start of my last big LE … I knew something was off. Even before I confirmed he was married. I ignored that feeling — you call it intuition — because I wanted what I wanted. Or wanted to believe what I wanted to believe.
“That’s sounds better. And please don’t bring your “professionals” there 😉!”
If I’m paying half the rent, I’m bringing over whomever I want. Don’t worry. I’m not a “look at me, look what I’m doing” show off. You won’t be subjected to what’s going on in my room. I’m quiet and discreet. 🙂
“The nerd LO#5”
Major points against him. 🙂
“I remembered one line, “would you change a piece of history if you can go back….”, and the advice was NOT, because all other consequential events would have to be rearranged thus disturb the universe — its energy fields.”
I think that’s a Star Trek episode! Starring a young Joan Collins! The original series. “But, Marcia,” you ask, “doesn’t that make you a nerd if you know that?” NO! It’s a young William Shatner in short, tight pants. 🙂
“Ah? What do you mean you “can’t access”?”
I can’t write about it on here. Dr. L will get mad. 🙂 Whatever part LO-lite accessed. Re-introduced me to a person I hadn’t seen in a long time.
“Do your daydreams make you feel better?”
I wasn’t clear. Some of this “inner life” is stuff that already happened. Experiences with people that feel more impactful than whatever I’m doing in every day life. Some of it, you’re right, is worries or concerns. The usual existential thoughts … where is my life going, etc.?
“I rarely dwell(ed) on or looked back the past and could forgive and become indifferent to (even forget) anything or anyone. My Granny and Dad are like this.”
Mine is the recent past. I’m not dwelling on things years ago.
“I also had sleepless nights when feeling uncontrollable fear … even out of misunderstandings or misinterpretations… ”
About what?
“Frigging sounds so much better than that f* word, which bothers my ear a great deal… 😠”
I like the “f” word. But I will follow the rules of the blog and avoid profanity … as it’s not my blog.
“like Elizabeth Taylor (aged horribly!)”
No, she didn’t. It depends on what phase of her life you’re talking about. I saw a clip of her on YouTube when she appeared on The Tonight Show. Johnny Carson was about to retire. She was about to turn 60. She looked great.
“they’d lose that Charisma/sexiness… French and British actresses are doing better in general than American ones.”
French women are allowed to age. They can look sophisticated and NORMAL as they age and still be considered attractive. In America … we’re fixated on youth and a certain period of time being the peak of attractiveness.
But I’d argue that charisma is forever. You can pull up a clip of Jack Nicholson on YouTube. It might be 10 years old. He interrupts an interview between Jennifer Lawrence and George Stephanopoulos after she wins the Oscar. He is flirting with her, and he is smooth.(But not young and not thin.)
“So this guy can’t ever move from your “friendship” to your “LO” file? A great mental connection and emotional closeness could not help develop your romantic feelings?”
I think we’ve talked about this before ? No, he can’t.
“That bewitching and damned Glimmer! 🙄 So you’re essentially saying that mental/emotional closeness and connection can never lead to romantic feelings; am I getting you correct?”
Not without the physical glimmer.
” and when you get a LO, you don’t want him to be in the “friendship” file? ”
Nope. Just want him in my room. 🙂
“But I found it got dull after a couple encounters, if people share so little with my mentality or sentimentality; If imagination, wisdom and humor were not/less involved”
It depends on the friend. Some people are fun to be around. High energy. Great humor. Willing to go out and do things. But, yes, if you can’t share who you really are with each other … you can only get so close to them.
“I’m gratified and proud that I didn’t lose much self-respect due to any inappropriate actions… ”
Oh, I lost myself to inappropriate actions. I meant I didn’t drive things. Didn’t do all/most the texting or keep showing up to remind the person I was alive. I didn’t nudge things along. I didn’t do that with LO-lite. I will not do that. I’ll do my part, but that’s it. It’s not just limerence. I feel this about people in general. At any time, if I feel like I’m “chasing the relationship” … could be any kind of relationship (friendship, romance, family) … I pull back. I’m not doing that anymore. It’s got to be reciprocal.
“Most of the time a compassionate one”
I don’t know, my dear. Tbh, you were a little rough recently with some of the posters on here.
“He looked nice and humble, not showy at all”
That’s how I pictured him. He seems like a good guy. From the interviews I’ve seen. Not arrogant. Considerate of other people.
“I agree with you that most of time, typical heterosexual men are focused, Subconsciously, on their “hunting/saving female targets”, unable to sense the latter’s emotions… a lot of them insensibly believe they would be a winner if they just try harder… 😏”
Part of that is societal. The message is … if he just keeps trying/asking, she’ll change her mind. Or if he hangs around long enough as a friend, she’ll finally see his value as a boyfriend. Isn’t that the plot of so many movies? But it’s the wrong message to send.
“I had to tell my student that in my last life I was definitely a dog priestess. 🌬️ 🤭”
Or a dog. 🙂 Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.
I actually like animals.
Miss Marcia,
“Not sure exactly what you mean but even way back at the start of my last big LE … “
I was referring to cases of the European Clan, not my own or yours…. I’ll keep my mouth shot 🤐 No one has assigned me ungrateful tasks here, and almost no one wish to take “bitter herbs” of truth to face and treat their stubborn “mental tumor” — LE.
“I knew something was off. Even before I confirmed he was married. I ignored that feeling — you call it intuition — because I wanted what I wanted. Or wanted to believe what I wanted to believe.”
The knowledgeable pursuit of unhealthy desires or whimsical wishes that actually bring oneself mental or physical pains or even “downfall” is human follies or foolishness.
“If I’m paying half the rent, I’m bringing over whomever I want. Don’t worry. I’m not a “look at me, look what I’m doing” show off. You won’t be subjected to what’s going on in my room. I’m quiet and discreet. 🙂”
I don’t need someone to share my rent, but a kindred mentality, sentimentality and soul to share at least half of my values and lifestyles… I won’t want a roommate before my AND her/his dating time is.
[The nerd LO#5]
“Major points against him. 🙂”
Don’t you think I’m a kind of nerd, too? A nerd usually doesn’t get along well with the rest of societal herds.
“I think that’s a Star Trek episode! Starring a young Joan Collins! The original series. “But, Marcia,” you ask, “doesn’t that make you a nerd if you know that?” NO! It’s a young William Shatner in short, tight pants. 🙂”
I probably only watched one or two episode of “Star Trek”, it’s so slow. Is your LwL name from the character there?
“I can’t write about it on here. Dr. L will get mad. 🙂 Whatever part LO-lite accessed. Re-introduced me to a person I hadn’t seen in a long time.”
That sound a more intriguing LO to hear about than those intolerable Narc LO, about whom some lmerents just couldn’t help nonstop talk…
“I wasn’t clear. Some of this “inner life” is stuff that already happened. Experiences with people that feel more impactful than whatever I’m doing in every day life.”
Then, it’s beneficial reflection; could you reap the fruits and move further with the gained insights?
“Some of it, you’re right, is worries or concerns. The usual existential thoughts … where is my life going, etc.?”D
Middle-aged people seldom could get away from existential thoughts…. There should be less worries if one focuses on “here and now” spiritually, while preparing for expected or/and unexpected logistically/financially.
“Mine is the recent past. I’m not dwelling on things years ago.”
I was talking about the fresh history; my last LE only ended on April 2 of this year… I don’t truly understand why I can become indifferent so fast this time, due to the exit of the longing?
“About what?”
The sudden sense of the perceived abandonment, originated from childhood, could still suddenly trigger me despite my Stoicism practice, which would take from 1 day to 1 week, to damper the fear. Still, I’d lose sleep with a bit of chill or/and tremor for the night…
“No, she didn’t. It depends on what phase of her life you’re talking about. I saw a clip of her on YouTube when she appeared on The Tonight Show. Johnny Carson was about to retire. She was about to turn 60. She looked great.”
To me, she never looked graceful at any age, although aesthetically beautiful…. For the old Hollywood, I like Greta Garbo, Ingrid Bergman, Audrey Hepburn, and Grace Kelly.
“French women are allowed to age. They can look sophisticated and NORMAL as they age and still be considered attractive.”
Aged or not, they do look more sophisticated, chic and cultural in general than American women. Have you seen the healthy lifestyle of regular French women, and how they train and educate their children from young age? My French gf has three boys, Godmother 3 girls…
“In America … we’re fixated on youth and a certain period of time being the peak of attractiveness.”
Psychologically unhealthy. Stressing on “attractiveness” itself is vain and shallow, breeding insecurity from a very early age.
“But I’d argue that charisma is forever. You can pull up a clip of Jack Nicholson on YouTube.”
Jack Nicholson is a great actor, but he is aesthetically ugly. His flirt won’t work for me even at his younger age, sorry to say so about your idol.
“I think we’ve talked about this before ? No, he can’t.”
That’s too bad for you, or anyone else. But I don’t think all other people function this way like you do.
“Not without the physical glimmer.”
But as you self-revealed, your physical glimmer seemed to have always picked up “wrong” men, why was that? Would you say that your body is somehow “separated/detached” from your mind/spirit?
[ and when you get a LO, you don’t want him to be in the “friendship” file? ”]
“Nope. Just want him in my room. 🙂 “
That would make it just impossible to get yourself a BP, no? Do you think this is influenced/imprinted by your individuality /the personal history or the American culture as a whole?
“It depends on the friend. Some people are fun to be around. High energy. Great humor. Willing to go out and do things.”
I think I talked about this before, extrovert, highly energetic, jolly kind of people keep me in distance. They’re fun and indispensable for parties, like my Ex’s passed godfather; but most parties are superficial although could be jolly. Superficiality in any field turns me off, so Unromantic!
“ I meant I didn’t drive things. Didn’t do all/most the texting or keep showing up to remind the person I was alive. I didn’t nudge things along. I didn’t do that with LO-lite. I will not do that. I’ll do my part, but that’s it. It’s not just limerence. I feel this about people in general. At any time, if I feel like I’m “chasing the relationship” … could be any kind of relationship (friendship, romance, family) … I pull back. I’m not doing that anymore. It’s got to be reciprocal.”
I posted a short video not long ago, “The Only Relationship Rule that matters — reciprocity.
https://youtu.be/JViyD5dKM8k?si=cn89fZBgZtGR3tyg”.
There is another one — the Only Way to Date Successfully:
https://youtu.be/IKO9ADslRs4?si=qiYk2Sx61nfxyjha
“I don’t know, my dear. Tbh, you were a little rough recently with some of the posters on here.”
Was I rough, or just they could not take “tough love”? If I got impatient or lost my composure, was I allowed to be triggered, as an inescapable LO annoyed by “slimy/sticky” limerent (at my work)? Was I allowed to make direct, honest complaint/disagreement? Did my “roughness” stay long?
“Part of that is societal. The message is … if he just keeps trying/asking, she’ll change her mind. Or if he hangs around long enough as a friend, she’ll finally see his value as a boyfriend. Isn’t that the plot of so many movies? But it’s the wrong message to send.”
Exactly! It shows that those movies do not understand human psychology well. The worse, such an enduring pursuit is derived from game playing mentality, chasing for the sake of winning chase. Once the pray or trophy is won, they get bored with it soon.
There was a true story in the turning of the 20 century in COO. This young poet celebrity pursued a young lady with his “immortal”, beautiful love poems. After five years of the great creative work, married him. In one year, he began to have affairs and abandoned her later for another pretty girl.
“Or a dog. 🙂 Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.
I actually like animals.”
Besides my BP, I would always take a dog as companion ahead of any other human beings. 😀
Typo: “I won’t want a roommate before my AND her/his dating time is over.”
🦆 What is limerence? (Explained by ducks 🦆 )
😂
https://youtube.com/shorts/MhORH0wriFI?si=V9oiM1ICFp4tDP8Z 😂
😱 What a grammatical and illogical mistake —
“If I, an inescapable LO, got deeply annoyed by a “slimy/sticky” limerent at work and then triggered by some Narc-LO obsessed posts here, was I allowed to be impatient or lose my composure?”
Forgive my half awake brain at the end of a long day without any nap… 😟
Now in the grayish sky, the internal Sun is shining again — Today is another day! 😀
Snow,
“The knowledgeable pursuit of unhealthy desires or whimsical wishes that actually bring oneself mental or physical pains or even “downfall” is human follies or foolishness.”
Welcome to the human condition.
“I don’t need someone to share my rent, but a kindred mentality, sentimentality and soul to share at least half of my values and lifestyles…”
That’s what a roommate does. Shares the expenses.
“I won’t want a roommate before my AND her/his dating time is.”
I don’t know what you mean.
“Don’t you think I’m a kind of nerd, too? A nerd usually doesn’t get along well with the rest of societal herds.”
I don’t mind a little nerd. I’m have a little nerd in me. But I admire someone who is good socially. I can be social but I’m not adept at it and I would look for that in a man as it’s a quality I don’t have.
“Is your LwL name from the character there?”
No. I just pulled the name out of the air.
“Then, it’s beneficial reflection; could you reap the fruits and move further with the gained insights?”
Possibly. A lot of what life is is accepting things you cannot change or situations/people you cannot change. I’m speaking in general, not just of LOs.
“I was talking about the fresh history; my last LE only ended on April 2 of this year… I don’t truly understand why I can become indifferent so fast this time, due to the exit of the longing?”
I’ve mentioned this before. I’m not interested in talking about longing.
“The sudden sense of the perceived abandonment, originated from childhood”
What would trigger it?
“To me, she never looked graceful at any age, although aesthetically beautiful….”
Honey, do you have eyes? 🙂 She played Helen of Troy in the “Doctor Faustus” movie. The only woman, IMO, who could ever pull that off. And underneath all the beauty, she was earthy and bawdy. It was an interesting contrast.
“For the old Hollywood, I like Greta Garbo”
I find her interesting. Both her on-screen persona and how she lived her life once she left Hollywood. She was her own person.
“Ingrid Bergman, Audrey Hepburn, and Grace Kelly”
These are not my favorites. Although I liked Bergman when she played Hedda Gabler. It’s a great part.
“Aged or not, they do look more sophisticated, chic and cultural in general than American women. ”
I agree. I think it’s the way they style themselves. They look elegant and sexy. There’s a way to still look sexy as you age and a way that screams … I’m not sure how to put it … the woman is still trying to look 25. Or style herself as did at 25. French women don’t to that.
[“In America … we’re fixated on youth and a certain period of time being the peak of attractiveness.”]
“Psychologically unhealthy. Stressing on “attractiveness” itself is vain and shallow, breeding insecurity from a very early age.”
As a young woman, you get a lot of attention. As has been documented on here. It’s the way it is in Western society.
“Jack Nicholson is a great actor, but he is aesthetically ugly. ”
That’s really harsh.
“His flirt won’t work for me even at his younger age, sorry to say so about your idol.”
He’s not my idol. Nor is he really my type. But I think he has a lot of charisma. My point was … when you have it, you just have it. Age doesn’t diminish it.
“But I don’t think all other people function this way like you do.”
I never said they did.
“But as you self-revealed, your physical glimmer seemed to have always picked up “wrong” men, why was that? Would you say that your body is somehow “separated/detached” from your mind/spirit?”
I don’t know how to answer that. I’d say separate friendship from romance. WHICH I KNOW YOU DON’T. 🙂 They feel like two separate feelings.
“Superficiality in any field turns me off, so Unromantic!”
I’m not big on it either but I’m fairly introverted myself. I wouldn’t want to date another introvert.
“Was I rough, or just they could not take “tough love”? If I got impatient or lost my composure, was I allowed to be triggered, as an inescapable LO annoyed by “slimy/sticky” limerent (at my work)? Was I allowed to make direct, honest complaint/disagreement? Did my “roughness” stay long?”
Do you not see what you’re doing? Not accepting any responsibility and throwing it back on them? You got enough feedback to know how your words were taken.
I don’t think “tough love” works on most people. It makes them defensive and shut down and everything you say, even if true, bounces off them. I think you can make some points and ask some questions to get them thinking, but I don’t think tough love affects how/when/if people grow. I was going through a breakup years ago and one day my friend said, “I can’t talk about this anymore.” And I didn’t even realize how much I was talking about it. I’m sure I was going over and over the same thing. I’m sure she wanted to pull her hair out. And I think you can do that. Put up a boundary. Or you can remove yourself from the conversation.
“Exactly! It shows that those movies do not understand human psychology well. ”
It rarely works. Needling someone or waiting around forever … it’s a bad strategy.
I see Elizabeth Taylor as perfect beauty…or as close to it as anyone can get. Of course, it’s in the eye of the beholder. 🙂 I don’t know what she was like personally, but I admire how she looks in movies. For example, Cleopatra; I watched it once and found it waaaaay too long (a common complaint), but her curves looked good in that Egyptian dress!
Just the other day, I watched a Youtube video by a Frenchwoman with advice for how a woman should dress as she ages. I soon figured out I wasn’t quite as old as she meant, but it still had good tips.
I think most of my LE’s didn’t develop until after I knew the guy for a while. Some I dated right away, some I never dated, but most of the time I think I have to know the guy and have some familiarity with him before anything can truly develop.
Serial,
” For example, Cleopatra; I watched it once and found it waaaaay too long (a common complaint), but her curves looked good in that Egyptian dress!”
The movie is long and slow and cheesy and overdone, but she looks gorgeous.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/x5MX6l0ps80
She’s right. Forty is a good age for a man. 🙂
“I think most of my LE’s didn’t develop until after I knew the guy for a while. Some I dated right away, some I never dated, but most of the time I think I have to know the guy and have some familiarity with him before anything can truly develop.”
I’m the opposite. The more I get to know them, the LE starts to crumble.
Forty: When they’re technically middle-aged but still young and hot. 🙂
Marcia,
“Welcome to the human condition.”
Is it an excuse to bend over to perpetual imperfect human conditions as our defaults? E.g. use the excuse of having “addiction” to NOT to discipline one’s behaviors such as excessive-drinking or obsessing LO? Can one try to grow like a lotus 🪷 out of a muddy pond?
“That’s what a roommate does. Shares the expenses.:
I know roommates share expenses, and I said it would be my last reason to want a roommate. Personality even as a company matters a huge deal.
“I don’t know what you mean.”
I meant that I would not want a roommate if she/he and I are still eligible to date, passively or actively. I want my privacy in romance and don’t want to witness others’ romantic life under my nose in my apartment.
“I don’t mind a little nerd. I’m have a little nerd in me. But I admire someone who is good socially.”
I do not admire people who are vey social, especially those social-butterfly, people pleasers, chitchatters and peacemakers in my personal life (job requirement is excluded).
“I can be social but I’m not adept at it and I would look for that in a man as it’s a quality I don’t have.”
If I really want something (personality traits) from someone else, I’ll cultivate it first in myself. I’m already a complete incomplete-self, and another could only help me to complete my own incompleteness, but s/he cannot replace or fill that incompleteness of mine, vice vista. I hope I could be such an assistant to a future BP.
“Possibly. A lot of what life is is accepting things you cannot change or situations/people you cannot change. I’m speaking in general, not just of LOs.”
Very true, you’re so Stoic here! By hanging in this place, while I no longer need to, is to further train my mind for such a Stoic principle. Trust me, it was never a piece of cake… It took/takes one’s guts!
“I’ve mentioned this before. I’m not interested in talking about longing.”
I was not thinking about your longing stuff at all, but wondered whether I was too “heartless” to become indifferent to XLO/XLE so fast, as if totally erased a long “dream” of 8 years in one go — less than 2 hours! While last year I was still chatting with you about possibly building a post-LE friendship with ET…
Now I know for sure that thought alone proved that I was not totally out of LE ember. With current zero wish to have such a “friendship” with XLO, I have neither warm, nor cold, sad, resentful, regrettable feelings…. It IS in the past just like a dream!
“What would trigger it?”
My negative imaginations/perceptions out of miscommunication or misunderstanding. Envision/imagination is always a double-bladed sword; and both sides work equally powerful. It’s almost impossible to stop triggering and its neural effects, although your logical mind may know what is happening and exact whys….
“Honey, do you have eyes? 🙂
I have a pair of big, talking, and intuitive eyes… and trust them very much!
“She played Helen of Troy in the “Doctor Faustus” movie. The only woman, IMO, who could ever pull that off. And underneath all the beauty, she was earthy and bawdy. It was an interesting contrast.”
I didn’t see the above movie, but some other ones. Bawdiness in women and men turn me off, no matter what atheistical beauty they have. I don’t see much earthiness in Taylor but loads of insecurity in her characters.
“For the old Hollywood, I like Greta Garbo”
I find her interesting. Both her on-screen persona and how she lived her life once she left Hollywood. She was her own person.”
Precisely! We share same views on Greta Garbo. She’s mysterious, fiercely independent, and strong with emotional vulnerabilities, like in the character, Queen Christina.
“Ingrid Bergman, Audrey Hepburn, and Grace Kelly”
“These are not my favorites. Although I liked Bergman when she played Hedda Gabler. It’s a great part.”
They portray innocence, grace, elegance, femininity to me, regardless of their acting skills.
“I think it’s the way they style themselves. They look elegant and sexy. There’s a way to still look sexy as you age and a way that screams …
From French women I observed and know (not many and they’re ordinary), they don’t spend tons of time or energy pursuing being “elegant and sexy” (most of them have no makeups). They just live with their cultivated habits according to the culture and very individual tastes. They look so confident, regardless of their physical appearance.
“I’m not sure how to put it … the woman is still trying to look 25. Or style herself as did at 25. French women don’t to that.”
These women are tacky and would be mocked to “death” in France.
“As a young woman, you get a lot of attention. As has been documented on here. It’s the way it is in Western society.
Are you talking about me personally? What has been documented here? You mean that I have been talked to/with was due to my perceived age, not contents I rambled about? Are you saying that if I’m old, no one would have ever chatted with me or simply ignored whatever I had to say? — Why❓Isn’t that age discrimination❓ That’s the way of the “progressed” Western society❓
“Jack Nicholson is a great actor, but he is aesthetically ugly. ”
That’s really harsh.”
That’s my true opinion, and I did not say it to his face; I’m positive that he could not care less what I or anyone think of him, which is his true “beauty”! Now, can I seriously ask you: when and where the word “ugly” could be used when it’s truthful to me? Ever or never?
“He’s not my idol. Nor is he really my type. But I think he has a lot of charisma. My point was … when you have it, you just have it. Age doesn’t diminish it.”
I think charisma is overrated in this culture, not sure about in Europe, definitely not in COO, where individualism is heavily hammered down. Charisma has a lot to do with personality and one’s mental and physical health…
“I don’t know how to answer that. I’d say separate friendship from romance. WHICH I KNOW YOU DON’T. 🙂 They feel like two separate feelings.”
I’m proud that I don’t. Romance and friendship are one’s two arms, that harmoniously function together and separately (like in playing piano) and keep the system (One’s overall wellbeing) run much better than one arm.
“I’m not big on it either but I’m fairly introverted myself. I wouldn’t want to date another introvert.”
I would NOT want to date any extrovert, including my father-type. There are some “flashy” stuff about them, very few of them are deep.
“Do you not see what you’re doing? Not accepting any responsibility and throwing it back on them? “
I accept my responsibility for speaking up my truths with good faith and good intention, like a surgeon to patient with a brain tumor. I accept the fact that my words (or anyone else’s words) could at any given time cause all sorts of reactions, due to all sorts of personalities out there. However, I don’t take responsibility for how to react or act towards whatever audience hear from me or anyone else; that’s their job. Again, I didn’t intend to hurt but to help with absolutely sincerity. Moreover, did anyone “die”? — the main audience even didn’t get what I meant to say….
“You got enough feedback to know how your words were taken.”
However my words were/are taken was/is not my issue; two sides of the coin always exist(s). If they are not taken effectively of positively, Ces’t la vie — it’s beyond my control. I’m still far away to catch up with Salman Rushdie’s spirit…
“I don’t think “tough love” works on most people.”
Please allow me to differ a bit here — “on most limerents” because they somehow ate too much “romantic/fantasy-sugar” 😃 . You’re right that “tough love” works only on Few, and I’d just want to deal with 🫂 those “few” who is capable of giving and taking tough love 💗🔫…
“It makes them defensive and shut down and everything you say, even if true, bounces off them.
If the words are true to them, then perhaps they could ask, “why do I feel so defensive against such truths?” Or “if they are untrue, why do I feel defensive instead of just shrug them off?” Or “whether true or untrue, why do I shut down in front of another’s subject opinons”? These are questions I often asked myself as I was facing the storms and ultimately survived them, becoming a better Stoic and more joyful…
“I think you can make some points and ask some questions to get them thinking, but I don’t think tough love affects how/when/if people grow. “
Get some deeply “drunken” limerent’s thinking? 🤔 Few are drowning in the LE swamp and insisting staying there with excuses; e.g I have the helpless “addiction”… I accept and forgive myself…. If you try to pull them out as many of us have done, they’d drag you down with their “irresistible” LOs and their persistant LE sufferings…
I don’t think soft or tough love can change anyone else’s thinking, behavior, and maturing, it’s fundamentally up to their own determination and efforts. A good surgeon needs to tell the truth to the patient, “you’ve got a brain tumor that won’t shrink and go away on its own (DrL’s feature article today), and it can mutate into cancer if you indulge your wishful behaviors. The best way is to surgically remove it — 📣 go to NC! (Regardless pre-friendship or not! When LE is totally gone, you can rebuild a brand new friendship with the same LO!)
“And I think you can do that. Put up a boundary. Or you can remove yourself from the conversation.”
Well, last month I did put up my boundary and directly made my complaint, after I had irrelevantly given a penny of my thoughts to many older timers in the past two years. Nowadays I firmly see that not in the shoes of any limerent with a SO, I simply don’t know how to validate or empathize with their cases . If you have paid attention, you’d notice that I mainly chatted with singletons + Adam + 🐝 🧙♀️ (they are special) for the past 3 months.
“It rarely works. Needling someone or waiting around forever … it’s a bad strategy.”
It takes two willing, matching body/mind/soul to tango in any relationship, not one chases or waits another, either like a hunter or a tearing baby. Only RECIPROCity matters in a relationship; anything else can be learned with certain amount of existing attraction and abilities.
Even after getting that desired someone, it has NO guarantee that the relationship would harmoniously work out and last. The mainstream culture in both West and East mainly pays attention to chasing and securing SO (w/o the church Bell), but rarely explore (with few literature/media) how to make a workable relationship/marriage afterwards.
The substantial, fulfilling union of body and mind takes both parties’ committed/constnat efforts to keep learning and teaching each other, giving and receiving the love, exploring, creating, and expanding their unique, mutual world, and growing independently together into their old age. The whole process itself is a rare beauty in life!
👒 👠 Marcia, you know I rarely flatter people but meant what I said and said what I meant. Your direct, truthful, occasionally acidic chats with me were never “merciless” to my ears, whether I agreed with or liked your points. Answering your tough questions has made me more aware and 👁️ myself better — you’re a mirror, showing me parts of me that I can or can’t see in myself, which is the true essence of interacting with others — Know Thyself!
I sincerely thank you 😊 🤗
Snow,
“I sincerely thank you 😊 🤗”
You’re welcome, INFP Sister!
Lady Marcia,
“As a young woman, you get a lot of attention. As has been documented on here. It’s the way it is in Western society.“
After a nap, my drowsy mind 🧠 🔨 finally figured out what you were saying here. 😊 Let me try to calm your ladyship’s nerves a bit here —
Ten days before it was“documented on here”, the realistic facts and an ordinary, current work-ID were decisively wave-signaled to the 🌌 on purpose, so any “delusional, nerdy” Sherlock Holmes could check them up; were you one of 6 (a lucky number)? 🧐
It’s just about impossible to believe that a Don Quixote can still exist in the 21st century of the Western society… 😳 as Shakespeare laments, “O, a poet, half a man, half a mad….” 😚
👒 Marcia, do you like Don Quixote? Would you befriend a modern one? 😉
Snow,
“👒 Marcia, do you like Don Quixote? Would you befriend a modern one?”
I’ve never actually read it.
The AI overview: “The story of Don Quixote is about an aging nobleman who, after reading too many chivalric romances, goes mad and decides to become a knight-errant himself, naming himself Don Quixote de la Mancha. He recruits a simple farmer, Sancho Panza, as his squire and embarks on adventures to revive chivalry by fighting perceived injustices and saving damsels in distress. The story humorously contrasts his idealistic, delusional worldview with the harsh reality he encounters, exploring themes of reality versus illusion, sanity versus madness, and the nature of heroism.”
Are you saying it should be required reading of all limerents? 🙂 Would it make a dent? I don’t think so. 🙂
Marcia,
What AI version you’re using? Here is what I found through also AI, that interprets —
*******
The Dialectical Masterpiece: A Critique of Don Quixote
Miguel de Cervantes’s Don Quixote is more than a foundational work of Western literature; it is a dialectical engine that generates endless interpretations. It is simultaneously a hilarious comedy, a profound tragedy, a literary parody, and a deep philosophical inquiry into the nature of reality. A complete critique must navigate these contrasting layers.
The Strengths: Foundations of Its Greatness
1. The Birth of the Modern Novel and Meta-Fiction:
Cervantes broke the mold of narrative. By presenting the story as a “translation” of a manuscript by the Moorish historian Cide Hamete Benengeli, he introduced a self-aware, fictional narrator. This meta-fictional layer questions the nature of truth, history, and storytelling itself. In Part II, this genius reaches its peak as the characters live in a world where Part I has been published and read. They are celebrities trapped by their own legend, manipulated by readers like the Duke and Duchess. This was a revolutionary concept that foreshadowed postmodernism by centuries.
2. The Unforgettable Dual Protagonists:
The relationship between Don Quixote and Sancho Panza is the soul of the novel. They are not static types but evolving, symbiotic characters.
· Don Quixote: He begins as a pure figure of farce, but Cervantes gradually deepens him into a tragic, sympathetic idealist. His “madness” is rooted in a noble, if misguided, desire to impose justice, beauty, and chivalry upon a mundane and often cruel world.
· Sancho Panza: His transformation is equally remarkable. He evolves from a simple, greedy peasant motivated by the promise of an island into a wise, loyal, and wonderfully eloquent friend. Their dialogues on the road are masterpieces of comedy and philosophy, representing the eternal debate between idealism and materialism, dreams and reality.
3. A Masterful Parody that Transcends Itself:
On the surface, the novel is a brutal and effective parody of the chivalric romances that were wildly popular in Cervantes’s time. Quixote’s misadventures—tilting at windmills, attacking wineskins—lampoon the absurdities of the genre. However, Cervantes goes far beyond mere satire. The book becomes a celebration of the very power of stories that it parodies. Quixote’s madness is, at its core, a desire to live a life charged with meaning and purpose, a life like the ones he found in books.
4. Deep Humanity and Psychological Realism:
Unlike the flat characters of the romances he parodies, Cervantes populates his world with complex, believable people. Even minor characters have depth and motivation. This humanity forces the reader to constantly shift perspective. The comedy is rarely cruel for its own sake; we laugh at Quixote, but we also come to admire his unwavering courage and his commitment to his ideals, however delusional.
Complexities and Points of Critique
While universally praised, the novel is not without elements that readers and critics have debated for centuries.
1. Structural “Flaws” and the Embedded Narratives:
Part I, in particular, is famously episodic and digressive. The long interlude of “The Tale of Foolish Curiosity” and other embedded stories, while interesting in their own right, halt the main narrative’s momentum. A modern critic might view this as a structural weakness. However, another perspective sees it as a reflection of the sprawling, chaotic nature of life itself, a “baggy monster” that contains multitudes.
2. The Shifting Tone: From Comedy to Cruelty:
The novel’s tone evolves dramatically. The lighthearted slapstick of Part I gives way in Part II to a darker, more philosophical, and at times, deeply cruel humor. The extended torment of Quixote and Sancho by the Duke and Duchess is not merely a prank; it is psychological torture orchestrated by cynical, bored aristocrats. This shift can be jarring, forcing the reader to question who the real “madmen” are. This is not a flaw in execution, but a deliberate and challenging artistic choice that deepens the novel’s tragic dimension.
3. The Ambiguous, Debated Ending:
The conclusion, in which a defeated Quixote renounces his knight-errantry and dies as Alonso Quijano “The Good,” is one of the most debated in literature.
· The Traditional Reading: He regains his sanity and dies a good Christian, making it a moral and religious victory.
· The Tragic Reading: His defeat is the triumph of a dull, unheroic reality over imagination and idealism. He doesn’t just give up a fantasy; he surrenders his constructed self, the self that was, in its own way, more vibrant and noble than the world that crushed it. His death can feel less like a redemption and more like the extinguishing of a unique spirit.
4. The “Othering” and Representation:
A modern critique must also engage with the novel’s treatment of marginalized groups. The Moorish translator Cide Hamete Benengeli is a complex meta-fictional device, but the broader cultural context of post-Reconquista Spain includes prejudiced depictions of Moors and other groups. While these reflect the common biases of its time, they remain a point of critical discussion for contemporary readers.
The Enduring Legacy: The Quixotic Principle
The ultimate triumph of Don Quixote is its creation of the “quixotic principle”—the idea that an individual’s subjective reality can clash with objective consensus, and that in this clash, there can be a strange, defiant nobility.
The novel does not provide easy answers. It holds both Quixote’s idealism and Sancho’s pragmatism in a delicate, necessary balance. It asks us:
· Is it better to see the world as it is, or as it should be?
· What is the cost of dreams, and what is the cost of lacking them?
· Where is the line between madness and genius, folly and nobility?
In conclusion, Don Quixote is not a perfect, polished artifact but a vast, living, and breathing universe in prose. Its perceived “flaws” are often the very sources of its richness. It is a book that contains its own critique, inviting every generation to debate its meaning. It endures not because it is a perfect story, but because it is a fundamentally human one, capturing the eternal, necessary, and tragicomic struggle between our dreams and the world we inhabit.
************
Marcia,
The book is very long, but very fun to read or listen to (audio book). Saving-damsel-in-distress Limerents can definitely be allude to Don Quixote yet lack his Nobel and courageous actions.
If Quixote symbolizes crazy romance/fantasy in actions, Hamlet represents incisions and immobility with soliloquies, Limerents adopt the both weakness.
Do you think that a modern Quixotes could exist in our world? With the more progressed and liberal Western society and its material affluence, a modern Quixote and his counterpart — a female Sancho/Quixote, could answer the three AI questions —
· Is it better to see/accept the world at large as it is, or make a tiny version of it — their personal world, as it should and could be?
· What is the cost of dreams and of the efforts to make them true, and what is the cost of lacking both dreams and the efforts?
· Where is the line between madness and genius, folly and nobility?
Can one live between romantic ideals/dreams and earth-grounding realities, while holding human nobility and inspiring imagination/creativity❓
If Quixote symbolizes crazy romance/fantasy in actions, Hamlet represents indecisions and immobility with soliloquies, Limerents adopt the both weakness — addictive daydreaming without actions and circulatory, indecisive rants in LwL 😃
Snow,
“The book is very long, but very fun to read or listen to (audio book). Saving-damsel-in-distress Limerents can definitely be allude to Don Quixote yet lack his Nobel and courageous actions.”
I’ve of course heard of it and know it’s a classic. I just haven’t read it.
“Can one live between romantic ideals/dreams and earth-grounding realities, while holding human nobility and inspiring imagination/creativity❓”
You are asking the tough questions today! 🙂 I don’t know about romantic ideals. I’d have to think about that. In terms of dreams and creativity … there are moments in my side hustle that I find very moving. Connections with other people. Or parts of it that are very challenging. But that’s only part of it. The rest of it is … a job. I think, in life, you have to balance the need for those higher-self moments, for lack of a better description, with more base reality. Making money, paying bills, paying taxes, being disappointed by other people, etc. And the latter is a bigger part of life.
“If Quixote symbolizes crazy romance/fantasy in actions, Hamlet represents indecisions and immobility with soliloquies, Limerents adopt the both weakness — addictive daydreaming without actions and circulatory, indecisive rants in LwL 😃”
I would agree. I won’t lie … there have been times I’ve read some of the posts and thought: Do something! Make a decision!
👯♀️ Marcia,
Looks like I’m on the stage alone for monologue again… I don’t even know what’s our time zone difference… 😒
[Can one live between romantic ideals/dreams and earth-grounding realities, while holding human nobility and inspiring imagination/creativity❓]
“You are asking the tough questions today! 🙂 “
I think I have a bit mental ADHD, even my own mind does not know where it would fly to/wander off at any given moment, “provoked” by others’ and AI’s words… 😮 My brain seems to be adaptive and eager to evolve… 🧐
“I don’t know about romantic ideals. I’d have to think about that. “
I am wondering, besides lofty words/poetry, what would be considered romantic deeds/actions which would contribute to its ideals in our modern world. One simply cannot just go to a forest, singing to the Sun and Moon, chatting with plants and animals, or “verbally” paint his/her LO, right? Young Picasso tried once for 6 month (?) with his best buddy to live and paint in a tent on a mountain, and one rain storm destroyed all his great paintings painted in the woods.😢
“In terms of dreams and creativity …”
What accounts for fulfilling creativity? the exploring and creating process itself or its ripen fruits? What a modern Don Quixote and his/her Sancho could ‘adventure” to in reality? What would be their “windmill” to battle with or to take a spinning ride on it? 😊
“there are moments in my side hustle that I find very moving. Connections with other people. Or parts of it that are very challenging. But that’s only part of it. “
Connecting with like-minded or kindred spirted people is “magically” gratifying, next or equal to creativity, especially when two could inspire each other’s body/mind/soul to creative something new. Challenging is a MUST ingredient in substantial connecting and creating, easy cakes are simply boring to an ADHD mind. Soaring up like birds is always more glorious than “jumping off a cliff” — worse than lying in the cage napping or dreaming…
“The rest of it is … a job. I think, in life, you have to balance the need for those higher-self moments, for lack of a better description, with more base reality.”
Without a contrast, without acquiring/achieving a necessity part in life, one’s “higher-self” would get bored, too — imagining reclining/lying in front of a fireplace under candle light for 24 hours? — one’s brain and its movement/creativity would be stifled by immobility! And without concrete means, how could any romantic ideas be materialized⁉️
But in reality based on my limited experiences, most of people around the world, either by necessity or choice, spend over-dominant amount time and energy to make/better materialistic living (understandable but boring to my eyes), or to sit back watching sports, soap operas, depression news, while chitchatting, gossiping or indulging junkie snacks (more boring and unhealthy). I met only few who constantly tries to create something new or make their own living more alive/adventurous/artistic (improving/maintaining physical and mental health are involved).
“ Making money, paying bills, paying taxes, being disappointed by other people, etc. And the latter is a bigger part of life.”
True to the most of the population on the earth. Fortunately, it’s no longer the bigger part of my personal life, especially being disappointed by other people, whose behaviors are ALWAYS beyond my control or expectations; then why waste my precious brain cells on such “disappointment”? 😊 Stoicism is one effective tool to protect one’s emotional life or help keep one’s sanity.
Romanticizing in all aspects of life, even just its cooking/dancing in one’s head, would color/spice one’s mandated living/daily routines. Without some “higher-self” activities, the “base” reality could become insufferable…
“I would agree. I won’t lie … there have been times I’ve read some of the posts and thought: Do something! Make a decision!”
Before coming to LwL, I never expected there are so many indecisive minds out there… 😳 as if there were endless time waiting for them…. Life is short and the clock 🕰️ ticks “faster” after the age of 40… 😓
Why am feeling I’m working here part-time for 🆓 ❓😉 I want to get paid for more sleeps! 🛏️!
Snow,
“I am wondering, besides lofty words/poetry, what would be considered romantic deeds/actions which would contribute to its ideals in our modern world.”
Big romantic gestures? I’m not really a fan. They feel performative.
“What accounts for fulfilling creativity?”
My side hustle is not really creative. That would be, IMO, writing or composing, etc. But it can be intellectually challenging and has moments of human connection.
“Connecting with like-minded or kindred spirted people is “magically” gratifying, next or equal to creativity, especially when two could inspire each other’s body/mind/soul to creative something new. ”
Like I wrote, I ‘m not really creating anything. But if you’re in an environment where people want to learn something new and challenge themselves, that’s huge. And sometimes the people can be very caring. Which can be emotionally moving.
“always more glorious than “jumping off a cliff” — worse than lying in the cage napping or dreaming…”
Nothing beats jumping off a cliff. :)That’s a whole different level of experience that maybe I’ll never feel again. I AM NOT opening up conversation on this topic. I’m still processing it. 🙂
“Without a contrast, without acquiring/achieving a necessity part in life, one’s “higher-self” would get bored, too ”
That’s true.
“I met only few who constantly tries to create something new or make their own living more alive/adventurous/artistic (improving/maintaining physical and mental health are involved).”
A lot of people don’t seem to want anything. What I mean is …same vacation spot every year, same family traditions at the holidays with the same people they’ve known for decades, same job for years.
“especially being disappointed by other people, whose behaviors are ALWAYS beyond my control or expectations”
That’s true. What has happened of late is that I met/encountered a few people who didn’t disappoint me. So when I recently encountered ones who did disappoint me … I was thrown back into the reality of … this is how it usually is.
“Before coming to LwL, I never expected there are so many indecisive minds out there… 😳 as if there were endless time waiting for them…. ”
I think we are looking at it incorrectly. I don’t think most limerents want to make a decision. They have no intention of making a decision. They want the feelings, the internal conflict and the rumination. If I were to guess.
“Life is short and the clock 🕰️ ticks “faster” after the age of 40… 😓”
And it gets worse with every new decade.
Miss Marcia,
“Big romantic gestures? I’m not really a fan. They feel performative.”
What are romantic gestures? I am not quite clear about them, sincere or performative (know a little bit from classical literature). Are they culturally based, eg American vs. European? When do you apply those romantic gestures? During the chase phrase or after “the church bell”, or both?
“My side hustle is not really creative. That would be, IMO, writing or composing, etc. “
I now know that I belong to this clan, regardless whether I’ve had published work. few friends of mine are, and my BP would be, in this lonesome “wolf-pack”… We are alone together…
“But it can be intellectually challenging and has moments of human connection.”
Does reading/self-learning, exploring/debating, or some fashions of socializing (with same sex or both?) belong to this group? How long are the “moments of human connection” you’re referring to? Once in a while, every week, every months?
“Like I wrote, I ‘m not really creating anything. “
Creating could be just happening in the head/heart to add something brand new in one’s emotional, mental, or spiritual life; it doesn’t have to be publishing a book or a collections of poems with a public name.
“But if you’re in an environment where people want to learn something new and challenge themselves, that’s huge. “
You just answered one of my above questions. I guess your “something new and challenge themselves” would involve some common grounds among involved people, eg. pottery vs. piano playing?
“And sometimes the people can be very caring. Which can be emotionally moving.”
“Caring” about what? One’s learning process? One’s physical /mental/emotional/spiritual wellbeing? Act of service? What are those concrete “carings” in this culture or in the whole West?
“Nothing beats jumping off a cliff. :)That’s a whole different level of experience that maybe I’ll never feel again. I AM NOT opening up conversation on this topic. I’m still processing it. 🙂”
🤐 🤐
To ME, the free and powerful soaring of birds in a person’s heart, mind and spirit ultimately triumphs all other kinds of human experiences‼️
“A lot of people don’t seem to want anything. What I mean is …same vacation spot every year, same family traditions at the holidays with the same people they’ve known for decades, same job for years.”
I consider that as uncreative, unadventurous, unwise, and “boring”… Was it why you were afraid of getting settled or involved in a traditional couple/family life?
“That’s true. What has happened of late is that I met/encountered a few people who didn’t disappoint me. So when I recently encountered ones who did disappoint me … I was thrown back into the reality of … this is how it usually is.”
Precisely! The reality is made of dualities, no coin of any human experiences has just one side — the default of human existence❗️
I was habitually (prepared) in the desert and even took it as a norm… so when I spotted a puddle of water or heard a tickling of water under my feet, I thought it must be just a mirage 🌁 out of my delusions 💭 — “Am I having a dream?”
“I think we are looking at it incorrectly. I don’t think most limerents want to make a decision. They have no intention of making a decision.”
I came from a largely solution-seeking, happiness/joy-pursuing culture and thought the West must be the same way or even better, since it’s invented so much advanced, high-quality, and beautiful stuff for people to love and enjoy their life much better…
Then during my Dad first visit here, he asked, “Why do they eat so much tasteless frozen/TV food while they’ve produced abundant, high-quality fresh produce all year around?” 🧐
“They want the feelings, the internal conflict and the rumination. If I were to guess.”
Fleeting/whimsical or constant/lasting feelings? Without “the feelings, the internal conflict and rumination”, would the life of limerents be too boring? Or is it a part of the unwritten “philosophy” — no pains, no gains? 😉
[“Life is short and the clock 🕰️ ticks “faster” after the age of 40… 😓”]
“And it gets worse with every new decade.”
Actually, if one does not care about or fear time — invisible to one’s naked eyes, but focuses on their purposeful living and enjoy a majority of their small, ordinary, joyful life, the clock feels like ticking “slower”.…
Time is relative — Einstein. 😊
Miss Snow,
“What are romantic gestures?”
Really expensive dinners at high-end restaurants; expensive trips and expensive hotels; expensive gifts; asking someone to marry you at a party in front of family and friends.
“Are they culturally based, eg American vs. European? When do you apply those romantic gestures? ”
I don’t know. I couldn’t begin to answer that.
“During the chase phrase or after “the church bell”, or both?”
I would assume it’s during the chase phase but I suppose it could happen at any time.
“few friends of mine are, and my BP would be, in this lonesome “wolf-pack”… We are alone together…”
It’s hard to find real friends and even harder to find a BP. I can’t put an additional qualifier on the search that the person be just like me. Obviously, we should have things in common, but it’s nice when the other person brings things to the table I don’t have.
“Does reading/self-learning, exploring/debating, or some fashions of socializing (with same sex or both?) belong to this group? ”
To an extent. I don’t know if I’ve made any real friends in this group. Could happen. Hasn’t yet. So far, more like friendly acquaintances.
“How long are the “moments of human connection” you’re referring to? Once in a while, every week, every months?”
Every day. But they’re MOMENTS. It’s not every minute of every hour.
“Creating could be just happening in the head/heart to add something brand new in one’s emotional, mental, or spiritual life; it doesn’t have to be publishing a book or a collections of poems with a public name.”
Ok. Then by using that definition, it’s creative.
“You just answered one of my above questions. I guess your “something new and challenge themselves” would involve some common grounds among involved people, eg. pottery vs. piano playing?”
The field itself creates a common ground. That we are all interested in it.
” One’s physical /mental/emotional/spiritual wellbeing? Act of service?
Both
“What are those concrete “carings” in this culture or in the whole West?”
That you give a crap about other people. Some fields lend themselves to having to have an interest in other people; some do not.
“To ME, the free and powerful soaring of birds in a person’s heart, mind and spirit ultimately triumphs all other kinds of human experiences‼️”
This is what you have in common with other limerents. 🙂 For me, the experience has to move from my mind … to an actual physical reality.
“Was it why you were afraid of getting settled or involved in a traditional couple/family life?”
It just never looked like that much fun. And to me there was enough in life I was required to do that wasn’t fun — bills, a job, taxes, doctor’s appointments, etc.
“Then during my Dad first visit here, he asked, “Why do they eat so much tasteless frozen/TV food while they’ve produced abundant, high-quality fresh produce all year around?” 🧐”
Your father was right. Frozen food is tasteless. So is most fast food. McDonald’s and Wendy’s, for example, don’t even season their hamburgers. You can look up their ingredients. It’s just beef and salt. And processed cheese that tastes like nothing.
“Fleeting/whimsical or constant/lasting feelings?”
I’d say most LEs last a few years ?
“Without “the feelings, the internal conflict and rumination”, would the life of limerents be too boring? ”
That’s a good question. That’s what I’d like to know myself. Because often the limerent will just eventually move on to another LO or crush, etc.
That’s the big question: If most limerents have no intention of acting on the limerence, what purpose is it serving? Or more simply put: Why do limernts always have to be fixated on someone?
“Or is it a part of the unwritten “philosophy” — no pains, no gains? 😉”
What are they gaining?
Miss Marcia,
“Really expensive dinners at high-end restaurants; expensive trips and expensive hotels; expensive gifts; asking someone to marry you at a party in front of family and friends.”
When did romance gestures begin to be associated with expansiveness, Really expensiveness, and showy social occasion? 😉
How does sipping coffee in bed differ from dining in Maxim de Paris? Or cooking an authentic meal from scratch at cozy home from eating in the Ritz? Would quality of a romance magically improve after scattering 💵 💵 💵 around the global? Expensive gifts? Hmm… I thought Princess Diana got Buckingham Palace… 🤔
“I don’t know. I couldn’t begin to answer that.”
The best romantic gestures in actions/gifts, imo, would be individually invented ones, which have no replicas in the world, and which no price tag could be clipped on…. What about unexpected gifts, eg. physical/verbal “hugs” when you are feeling down/blue…
“I would assume it’s during the chase phase but I suppose it could happen at any time.”
It “could” or SHOULD happen at any time❓
“It’s hard to find real friends and even harder to find a BP. I can’t put an additional qualifier on the search that the person be just like me. “
I don’t think there is another replica of anyone in the galaxy, but people on the same emotional, mental, and spiritual path. Also as we discussed before, the word “search” no longer exists in my default state of the mind. I have been a passive fatlistist for most of my life (minus those dating app time).
“Obviously, we should have things in common, but it’s nice when the other person brings things to the table I don’t have.”
It’s a bonus, but nonessential. “Things in common” is MUST.
“To an extent. I don’t know if I’ve made any real friends in this group. Could happen. Hasn’t yet. So far, more like friendly acquaintances.”
I have neither time/energy nor care for friendly acquaintances.
[How long are the “moments of human connection” you’re referring to? Once in a while, every week, every months?]
“Every day. But they’re MOMENTS. It’s not every minute of every hour.”
Aside from BP/SO, no one could expect or have QUALIFIED moments of human connection EVERY DAY! — an impossible tall order…
“Ok. Then by using that definition, it’s creative.”
What is creative here? I’m a bit lost.
[One’s physical /mental/emotional/spiritual wellbeing? Act of service?]
“Both”
The first part is most challenging because most people are not adequate to “care” for another’s mental/emotional/spiritual wellbeing even after they work through or sort out their aged “gabbage”, e.g. serial limerences in limerents or the past unresolved traumas.
“That you give a crap about other people. “
“Hell is other people”. Before giving a crap, one needs to be extremely discerning about whom s/he would be dealing with. Samantha in “Sex and the City” would drive me to suicide attempts!
“Some fields lend themselves to having to have an interest in other people; some do not.”
Are you talking about professional fields? Eg. educators, therpiasts, commercial businessmen, politicians?
[To ME, the free and powerful soaring of birds in a person’s heart, mind and spirit ultimately triumphs all other kinds of human experiences‼️]
“This is what you have in common with other limerents. “
🆎 NOT❗️— totally different from mentally/emoitonally sticky/chained limerents‼️ You misunderstood me.
The word “free” means freedom from the past baggage of all kinds, including limerence; “powerful” indicates one’s mental/spiritual strength/independence to steer the one’s own soaring course in the edgeless sky…
In a relationship/romance, it’s two birds flying side by side, not one dangling on another as an extra or unwanted weight❗️ Remember the scene in “Out of Africa” when Redford took Streep for the first flight? How free, touched and high she felt — that’s the spirit!
“ 🙂 For me, the experience has to move from my mind … to an actual physical reality.”
Who says physical reality is removed from my analogy above? It seems that your talks can’t steer away from sexual activities and unrequited limerence situations, in which one cannot truly KNOW the freedom 🦅 I have been rambling about….
“It just never looked like that much fun. “
Following others’ established culture/rules is mostly boring. The real fun comes from creating one’s own culture/rules (within ethical and legal restrictions), from looking at the same spots/matters with refreshed/renoviated eyes; from one’s infinite curiositie and tiny “inventions”…
“And to me there was enough in life I was required to do that wasn’t fun — bills, a job, taxes, doctor’s appointments, etc.”
Those are necessities that one has to take a good care in order to achieve one’s desired fun. So why complain about them so much instead of just getting them done with qualibrium?
“Your father was right. Frozen food is tasteless. So is most fast food.
I haven’t entered those fast food chains for over 2 decades. I always carry nuts in my bag or just grab some banana from street vendors. I refuse to load junk food/drinks into my body, perhaps with one or two exceptions per year.
“I’d say most LEs last a few years ?”
Yes, without LE knowledge. With LwL nuggets, one’s intelligence, and will, it should not take place again in theory.
“Without “the feelings, the internal conflict and rumination”, would the life of limerents be too boring? ”
“That’s a good question. That’s what I’d like to know myself. “
You CANNOT know it until you settle with your Longing issue…. 🤐
“….often the limerent will just eventually move on to another LO or crush, etc.”
Yes they will, if they don’t eradicate their LE root(s), whatever they were/are.
Having a crush is necessary ahead of falling/walking in a possible lasting love (at least 3 or 4 Greek kinds combined), isn’t it? LO exists only before one knows about him/her sufficiently. When two sides are available to act and DO seriously and affectionately act, LO would be moved into the BP file or just gone with wind, right? 🧐
“That’s the big question: If most limerents have no intention of acting on the limerence, what purpose is it serving? “
This question should be directed to those stubborn and enabling limerents: some don’t know LE’s roots… some don’t know how to get rid of their causes… some simply unwilling…. 😉
“Or more simply put: Why do limernts always have to be fixated on someone?”
I think “have to” is driven either by that pair-bond drive or by something missing/going wrong in their life…
[Or is it a part of the unwritten “philosophy” — no pains, no gains? 😉”]
“What are they gaining?”
The wittiest question‼️ (I was sacarstic in my previous post 😊)
How are you going to celebrate Thanksgiving next week? I have two family/relative gatherings… I cook for one and get taken out for another… 😋
Miss Snow,
“When did romance gestures begin to be associated with expansiveness, Really expensiveness, and showy social occasion? 😉”
They were just examples I could think up quickly.
“The best romantic gestures in actions/gifts, imo, would be individually invented ones, which have no replicas in the world, and which no price tag could be clipped on…. What about unexpected gifts, eg. physical/verbal “hugs” when you are feeling down/blue…”
I agree but I’m not really a big gestures/expensive gifts person.
“It “could” or SHOULD happen at any time❓”
I think what you’re talking about and big, romantic gestures are two different things.
“I don’t think there is another replica of anyone in the galaxy, but people on the same emotional, mental, and spiritual path. ”
I think you have to have a connection with someone. But sometimes that can happen with people who might surprise you. You have different backgrounds or different educational levels, etc, but for whatever reason, you get each other. Or really like each other.
“I have neither time/energy nor care for friendly acquaintances.”
We’re talking about a work situation. I’m assuming you have fulfilling moments as a teacher with your students but you have no intention of trying to make them close friends.
“Aside from BP/SO, no one could expect or have QUALIFIED moments of human connection EVERY DAY! — an impossible tall order…”
What I mean is … it’s a job. There are moments that are fulfilling and I like the people, as a general rule. Do I like every minute of the job? No. Some of it is … drudgery.
“What is creative here? I’m a bit lost.”
My side hustle. It fits the definition of the way you defined creativity.
“The first part is most challenging because most people are not adequate to “care” for another’s mental/emotional/spiritual wellbeing even after they work through or sort out their aged “gabbage”, e.g. serial limerences in limerents or the past unresolved traumas.”
I’m talking about my side hustle. It is challenging to learn. And I like some of the people, and due to the nature of the work, there are moments that are fulfilling.
“Are you talking about professional fields? Eg. educators, therpiasts, commercial businessmen, politicians?”
Yes
“🆎 NOT❗️— totally different from mentally/emoitonally sticky/chained limerents‼️ You misunderstood me.”
Ok, but at some point, for me to consider myself “adventurous,” the adventures in my mind have to translate to the physical world. I have to DO something. It’s not enough to just dream stuff up in my head. I’m not just talking about limerence.
” Remember the scene in “Out of Africa” when Redford took Streep for the first flight? How free, touched and high she felt — that’s the spirit!”
I love that movie, but I interpreted it differently. She wanted him to commit and he wanted his freedom. It’s the classic female-male tension.
“Who says physical reality is removed from my analogy above? It seems that your talks can’t steer away from sexual activities and unrequited limerence situations, in which one cannot truly KNOW the freedom 🦅 I have been rambling about….”
I’m asking you now for a third time to drop the “freedom from longing” conversation. Please respect my boundaries.
“Those are necessities that one has to take a good care in order to achieve one’s desired fun. So why complain about them so much instead of just getting them done with qualibrium?”
You asked me about marriage, which to me looked like more drudgery. Thus I brought up drudgery because there’s a lot of it in life.
“Yes they will, if they don’t eradicate their LE root(s), whatever they were/are.”
I don’t know that having crushes and other attractions is unusual or necessarily unhealthy, even when partnered. Both usually fade quickly. But limerence is something else.
“Having a crush is necessary ahead of falling/walking in a possible lasting love (at least 3 or 4 Greek kinds combined), isn’t it? LO exists only before one knows about him/her sufficiently. When two sides are available to act and DO seriously and affectionately act, LO would be moved into the BP file or just gone with wind, right? 🧐”
Yes
“How are you going to celebrate Thanksgiving next week?”
I don’t know.
“I have two family/relative gatherings… I cook for one and get taken out for another… 😋”
What will you be cooking?
Miss Marcia,
“They were just examples I could think up quickly.”
Your quickly ideas are rather expensive! Lucky, you’re not my BP, or I’d be broke in no time… 😓 I’ll not introduce you to my BP, either (so you can’t pass your “pricy” ideas)! 🙄
[“The best romantic gestures in actions/gifts, imo, would be individually invented ones, which have no replicas in the world, and which no price tag could be clipped on…. What about unexpected gifts, eg. physical/verbal “hugs” when you are feeling down/blue…”]
“I agree but I’m not really a big gestures/expensive gifts person.”
Neither I! What “expensive gifts” did I list in the above passage? Individually invented ones? How do you price-label verbal “hugs” or “massages”? 🤔 Where do you buy individually designed E-cards with your brain and heart cells splashed on it❓
“I think what you’re talking about and big, romantic gestures are two different things.”
I grew up in a communist nation with zero sense of romantic gestures, would you elaborate the differences you see here? In what stage of a romance, one throws those (traditional or fashionable ) “romantic gestures”❓
“ I think you have to have a connection with someone. “
Absolutely! There might be many people walking on a same/similar path 👣 , it’s impossible to connect even with a small portion of them. There is no guarantee that one could be tightly connected to another ONE during his/her lifetime. It’s 🆎 Fate!
“But sometimes that can happen with people who might surprise you. “
Totally agree! In my small life led by a big dose of curiosity, I dreaming-walked on untrodden paths, shocked some, but have not been surprised enough… I’m ready to get some before my time on the earth runs out…
“You have different backgrounds or different educational levels, etc, but for whatever reason, you get each other. Or really like each other.”
Among people I know off, I’m least shy away from different background, different educational levels, different personalities, as long as we can carry on conversations/dialogues. But to truly “get each other” for whatever reasons would be a miracle, I would NEED to be convinced that it IS ever possible… 🤔 But I will never say “never” even to mirages in the 🌌
“We’re talking about a work situation. I’m assuming you have fulfilling moments as a teacher with your students but you have no intention of trying to make them close friends.”
Very true, I have fulfilling minutes or hours, not just moments. I love the nature of my job, aside from repetitious grading. No intension to make friends with students whose mental world is generationally different from mine…
“What I mean is … it’s a job. There are moments that are fulfilling and I like the people, as a general rule. Do I like every minute of the job? No. Some of it is … drudgery.”
In the past, when my job got to the point of “drudgery”, I just walked out. I had a few good colleague/friends in COO, not really here.
“My side hustle. It fits the definition of the way you defined creativity.”
Then, you’re creative. Everyone is creative in his/her unique or adopted ways and it’s fruitful if their creativities could make themselves happier, even just for moments of days, months, or years.
“I’m talking about my side hustle. It is challenging to learn. And I like some of the people, and due to the nature of the work, there are moments that are fulfilling.”
I thought you were talking about outside of work, e.. gfs, etc. you see how easy miscommunications of written words could take place? — the speaker meant one thing, the listener heard another. Sometimes, it took a week for me to get what the speaker tried to convey in a couple of lines… 🙄 🫢
“Ok, but at some point, for me to consider myself “adventurous,” the adventures in my mind have to translate to the physical world. “
In order to actualize adventures one needs to be able to imagine/envision them first, then prepare for the means, then action 🎞️!
“I have to DO something. It’s not enough to just dream stuff up in my head. I’m not just talking about limerence.”
Have you tried in other fields? I certainly did… 😊 my stories could be told in 1001 nights…. but I am still here with all limbs intact, Darling!
[Remember the scene in “Out of Africa” when Redford took Streep for the first flight? How free, touched and high she felt — that’s the spirit!]
“I love that movie, but I interpreted it differently. She wanted him to commit and he wanted his freedom. It’s the classic female-male tension.”
I very much like that movie, too; but that scene captures my “soul” most, I can feel their sense of wonder and freedom like a bird soaring in the sky for the first time…. while I have a bad vertigo and hate even watching Sky Diving !)
“I’m asking you now for a third time to drop the “freedom from longing” conversation. Please respect my boundaries.”
Sorry, I didn’t mean to talk about your life; I will be mindful. However, how am I going to talk about different MY SELFs before and after my longing is gone? Should I not even talk about my own liberation before and after LE?
“You asked me about marriage, which to me looked like more drudgery. Thus I brought up drudgery because there’s a lot of it in life.”
These ‘drudgery” exist in both single or married life, they’re necessities. Therefore, one gets them down in the most efficient ways, so as to save/get more time for fun stuff. It’s a default of life for survival, everyone faces them.
I grew up in learning not to complain but to get a proud sense of accomplishment in doing well for “what one has to do.” Both my parents and I are “first minute” person, meaning we try to finish our tasks as soon as we get them, to the point that I rest better without anything waiting for me to complete or hanging in the air next few hours or next days…
“I don’t know that having crushes and other attractions is unusual or necessarily unhealthy, even when partnered. Both usually fade quickly. But limerence is something else.“
I thought they were. Before finding LwL, I thought my confusing state of the mind was an unusual attraction/friendship sprung out of my losing my father, and didn’t think it’s even a crash. Needless to say I didn’t know it was unhealthy, I annoyed me deeply that I could not control it.
I had a crash, totally non-acted, for 4 years (not short) during my marriage. The person left the town 5 months after I knew him (my Lit. TA); but the crush did not leave until I met my next crush… my marriage did not reduce my sense of longing.
[“How are you going to celebrate Thanksgiving next week?”]
“I don’t know.”
So definitely not going home? Do you have friends nearby for the big dinner? My ex-family always had their extended family members and other friends, never short of 20 people…
“What will you be cooking?”
Under a request, I’ll be preparing Hot Pot, not much individual dishes cooking involved. It’s seasonally appropriated! And I asked to be taken to Japanese food, which suite my stomach superbly 😋 !
Miss Snow,
“I grew up in a communist nation with zero sense of romantic gestures, would you elaborate the differences you see here? In what stage of a romance, one throws those (traditional or fashionable ) “romantic gestures”❓”
I think you’re referring to thoughtful gestures. Something like: He knows who your favorite author is and he sees that the author has a new book out and buys it for you. But a “big, romantic gesture” is … big. By its very definition. It’s flashy. It’s showy. I thought of another one that has nothing to do with money… you go on a first date and the guy suggests you both take your dating profiles down. To me, that’s a lot after only one date.
“Among people I know off, I’m least shy away from different background, different educational levels, different personalities, as long as we can carry on conversations/dialogues. ”
So you feel more comfortable with people you’re not similar to ?
“No intension to make friends with students whose mental world is generationally different from mine…”
And, also, you’re the teacher. Should be a professional distance from the students.
“In the past, when my job got to the point of “drudgery”, I just walked out. I had a few good colleague/friends in COO, not really here.”
There’s always going to be some drudgery. You mentioned grading. I doubt any teacher enjoys that.
“I thought you were talking about outside of work, e.. gfs, etc. you see how easy miscommunications of written words could take place? ”
Yes, I see that now. It’s very true.
“In order to actualize adventures one needs to be able to imagine/envision them first, then prepare for the means, then action 🎞️!”
Depends on what it is. With my side hustle, I did a lot of research before making the move. With other things, there’s something to be said for spontaneity and taking a chance.
“Have you tried in other fields? I certainly did… 😊 ”
Yes. Several. 🙂
“I very much like that movie, too; but that scene captures my “soul” most, I can feel their sense of wonder and freedom like a bird soaring in the sky for the first time…. while I have a bad vertigo and hate even watching Sky Diving !)”
Don’t read up about the real life of the author. He was already involved with another woman at the time of his death. Sounds about right. 🙂
“Sorry, I didn’t mean to talk about your life; I will be mindful. However, how am I going to talk about different MY SELFs before and after my longing is gone? Should I not even talk about my own liberation before and after LE?”
I see your point. No, I don’t mean to restrict you in terms of talking about your own life. Just in giving me direction in regards to the longing.
“These ‘drudgery” exist in both single or married life, they’re necessities. ”
That’s true, but marriage itself looked like drudgery, so I didn’t want to ADD more drudgery to my plate.
“Both my parents and I are “first minute” person, meaning we try to finish our tasks as soon as we get them”
That’s probably a better way to do it. I … um … drag my feet and procrastinate. 🙂
“Before finding LwL, I thought my confusing state of the mind was an unusual attraction/friendship sprung out of my losing my father …”
I used to think that everybody experienced limerence like I did. (This was of course before I knew what limerence was.) I thought it was normal.
” but the crush did not leave until I met my next crush… my marriage did not reduce my sense of longing.”
And that’s not uncommon. I’ve certainly experienced that. You go from one LE or crush to another. So that was my question to limerents: Why do we have to be fixated on someone ? Why does our mind have to be occupied with someone ?
“So definitely not going home?”
I am home. Where I live is my home.
“Do you have friends nearby for the big dinner?”
I have one close friend nearby. But we haven’t really talked about T-Day.
“Under a request, I’ll be preparing Hot Pot, not much individual dishes cooking involved. It’s seasonally appropriated! ”
What other dishes will be at your feast ? 🙂
Miss Marcia,
Gosh, not only I dream and remember them often, but I also had dream within dream from time to time… and I also remember both layers of dreams, which were detailed, complicated, and long… this time, luckily, it’s nothing/nobody related to XLO/XLE at all.
“I think you’re referring to thoughtful gestures. Something like: He knows who your favorite author is and he sees that the author has a new book out and buys it for you. “
Yes, I’m 💯 with thoughtful gifts in friendship/relationship.
“But a “big, romantic gesture” is … big. By its very definition. It’s flashy. It’s showy. “
Then like you, I’m not a “romantic gesture” fonder at all; it’s not only tacky but it wouldn’t help a relationship much.
“I thought of another one that has nothing to do with money… you go on a first date and the guy suggests you both take your dating profiles down. To me, that’s a lot after only one date.”
Even if you’re indeed a Helen of Troy walking around, no such a gesture could take place❗️ If he does, you’d question, “Is he a modern Don Quixote?” A strong connection or a substantial tie in friendship/relationship takes time and a lot of work/effort to weave and make….
“So you feel more comfortable with people you’re not similar to ?”
It’s more related to colleagues and ordinary friends. With my genuine curiosity, I could be as brave/carefree as a kid ignoring social/cultural rules and taboos — it’s always fascinating in getting to know about new people, who also never remains the same‼️
However, my sincere curiosity often caused misunderstandings in men (and dogs, horses, deers), so I had to back up most of the time (not from animals, they’re friendly and sweet without knowing how to hide their nature. 😃 )
With romance, a glimmer of 7 or above beats unfamiliarity; glimmer makes one feel “familiar” with LO instantly. All my XLOs were strangers or outside of my professional and personal circles (except ET).
When much, I was not as open but “cold/closed”, because too much unwanted attention was thrown to me, I 🆎 HATED it! 😖 So I got to know all my colorful fictional, unfamiliar characters very well, but not real fleshy people.
Settling in my town, it feels very comfortable to get to know unfamiliar people, literally coming from the world over, not so much locals, some of which are cynical and subtly/bluntly arrogant, or culturally near-sighted. In HE, it’s much, much better to encounter much open-minded, well-educated people.
“And, also, you’re the teacher. Should be a professional distance from the students.”
Seeing my students’ maturity/knowledge level, I feel like a Grandma 👵 ! I seriously couldn’t understand how on earth, any of them could become my limerent pet, in my last job and this one! 🤦♀️ Limerence certainly makes one lose mind!
“There’s always going to be some drudgery. You mentioned grading. I doubt any teacher enjoys that.”
I like essays grading, I’ve got to see some fresh, modern mind and enjoy discussing their ideas with them.
“Depends on what it is. With my side hustle, I did a lot of research before making the move. “
Are you talking about relationships or jobs?
“With other things, there’s something to be said for spontaneity and taking a chance.”
With me, now more Stoic, I couldn’t help always analyze and anticipate situations: what would be the worst possibilities in this scenario? Will I be able to handle it realistically, mentally, and emotionally?
Growing up in COO, everyone was prepared for the worst most of the time, our life/personal affairs were never in our own hand. One word/step wrong, anyone could end up in Room 101…. The fear/caution was cultivated since birth, and it takes ages (or never) to get rid of such mentality. I’m just explaining where my mental habits came from.
“Don’t read up about the real life of the author. He was already involved with another woman at the time of his death. Sounds about right. 🙂”
As mentioned before, I rarely read/care about any authors’/celebrity’s background, except their works. In that sense, I’m like a female Quixote, idealistic or unpolluted by the reality. I could easily be an Emma in “Madame Bowery” if I did not grow up in COO. My logical mind had a hard time in believing in the Western romanticism and its induced behaviors, despite that I witnessed and were quite touched.
“I see your point. No, I don’t mean to restrict you in terms of talking about your own life. Just in giving me direction in regards to the longing.”
Okay. Again, I’ll be mindful in how to talk about my lifetime longing issue, which is very common in both cultures.
“That’s true, but marriage itself looked like drudgery, so I didn’t want to ADD more drudgery to my plate.”
Every coin of social/cultural matter has its two sides or multiple sides in all cultures. Drudgery is normal challenge of life and attests one’s characters/personality; it all boils down to one’s attitudes/treatment towards them, in line with Stoic principles.
“That’s probably a better way to do it. I … um … drag my feet and procrastinate. 🙂”
If you still remember, I got so many face-slaps from Mother just because of her perception of my “procrastination” — 5/10 minutes late in doing household chores or tidy up my own corner. Nowadays, I still can’t totally relax if one piece of homework is left ungraded, it sits in my head gnawing me. 😟
“I used to think that everybody experienced limerence like I did. (This was of course before I knew what limerence was.) I thought it was normal.”
Back in COO, I didn’t think everybody was like me in terms of having “big” crushes, most of people looked “numb” or dull. I thought my excessive readings made me an odd ball and a Western classical-culture (before 20th century) worshiper. On the other hand, I couldn’t believe that my normally very-logical mind could fall into this uncontrollable limerence for an obviously, strictly unavailable man! 🙈
”And that’s not uncommon. I’ve certainly experienced that. You go from one LE or crush to another. So that was my question to limerents: Why do we have to be fixated on someone ? Why does our mind have to be occupied with someone ?”
I can speak only for myself, especially now that I’m so out of LE: it’s caused by my unremembered, unresolved early-childhood trauma — the Longing ignitor, which made me constantly, subconsciously search a surrogate-parental LO/SO hoping he could fulfill that deep hole inside me. Of course, the pair-bonding drive was a big factor when one is young; but what about limerents who are already grandparents?
My LE-free mind, especially with mental OCD, can still be occupied with someone/something, gets excited; but it does not induce anxiety, uncertainty, or worries of any kind. The logical mind feels clear & confident, heart compassionate & joyful, spirit fearless & Agape (even with unknowns in my personal life), actions decisive & measured…
The sky is not gray, my Dear! 🤗 That’s why I wish you could be in my world, I have enough to share…. I’ll make steady, aware efforts to keep the sunshine here☀️ …
“I am home. Where I live is my home.”
Gotta you! 🫂 How is your home decorated? colors? styles? interior designs?
“I have one close friend nearby. But we haven’t really talked about T-Day.”
If you live in my town, I’ll DEFINITELY invite you to my T-dinner table.
“What other dishes will be at your feast ? 🙂”
My dear, a Hot Pot meal could include from 5-50 different ingredients — noddles, vegetables and meats (thinly sliced) of all sorts! (Google it to see what it is. 😀 ) But I won’t get too much stuff , then eat leftover for the following whole week!
I may still roast a smoked turkey drum to symbolize the holiday. Asian people don’t like a whole plain, tasteless turkey, so some invented their own ways to spice the big bird— marinate it with beer and many other spices for 3 days beforehand and then baked it with tinfoil wrapped (keep its moisture until the last few minute) — the best kind I’ve tasted!
I’ll do more reading during this short break, it seemed that during my LE sleep-walks, I babbled up some chapters in a “book” ?… I want to see what ramblings of there and then which might have unknowingly brought me here and now… 🤫
Typo: “When much younger, I was not as open but “cold/closed”….”
Miss Marcia,
“A strong connection or a substantial tie in friendship/relationship takes time and a lot of work/effort to weave and make….”
I agree. I was watching a show on romance scammers and that’s what the guy did. DURING the first date … says they should take their profiles down; texts the next day with a “Hi, Babe” … (it’s odd to call someone a pet name if you’ve met them ONCE); by date three he told her he loved her. Some people would find that romantic. I’d find it over the top.
“However, my sincere curiosity often caused misunderstandings in men (and dogs, horses, deers), so I had to back up most of the time (not from animals, they’re friendly and sweet without knowing how to hide their nature. 😃 )”
That’s happened to me as well. I ask a lot of questions and I’m a decent listener. And that has been misinterpreted. 🙂
“Seeing my students’ maturity/knowledge level, I feel like a Grandma 👵 ! ”
Me, too. There are many young people in my side hustle. (Early 20s and older.) I enjoy talking to them but I can’t take them seriously as romantic partners. Too young and no life experience.
“Are you talking about relationships or jobs?”
Side hustle=job
“With me, now more Stoic, I couldn’t help always analyze and anticipate situations: what would be the worst possibilities in this scenario? Will I be able to handle it realistically, mentally, and emotionally?”
I grew up in a very clinical household. Too much of that makes my blood run cold.
“The fear/caution was cultivated since birth, and it takes ages (or never) to get rid of such mentality. I’m just explaining where my mental habits came from.”
Got it. 🙂 My explanation about disliking overly cerebral living is above.
“As mentioned before, I rarely read/care about any authors’/celebrity’s background, except their works.”
The book the movie is based on is a memoir. The author was an interesting person.
“Nowadays, I still can’t totally relax if one piece of homework is left ungraded, it sits in my head gnawing me. 😟”
I always feel better once I get the chores done but it’s just getting myself to do it.
“Back in COO, I didn’t think everybody was like me in terms of having “big” crushes, most of people looked “numb” or dull. ”
I understand that. When I was young, I thought adulthood looked so boring. Adults did look numb. They looked dead! So regimented. I wanted no part of it. 🙂
“Of course, the pair-bonding drive was a big factor when one is young; but what about limerents who are already grandparents?”
Are you referring to pair bonding in terms of procreating?
“How is your home decorated? colors? styles? interior designs?”
I don’t decorate. 🙂 My place looks like a person’s place who just got out of college. 🙂
I know where you live. Do you have your own apartment? Is it pretty small? (Most apartments are small there.) Have you decorated it?
“If you live in my town, I’ll DEFINITELY invite you to my T-dinner table.”
That’s sweet of you.
“My dear, a Hot Pot meal could include from 5-50 different ingredients — noddles, vegetables and meats (thinly sliced) of all sorts! (Google it to see what it is. 😀 ) But I won’t get too much stuff , then eat leftover for the following whole week!”
I goggled it. That looks like a lot of food! 🙂
“I may still roast a smoked turkey drum to symbolize the holiday. Asian people don’t like a whole plain, tasteless turkey, so some invented their own ways to spice the big bird— marinate it with beer and many other spices for 3 days beforehand and then baked it with tinfoil wrapped (keep its moisture until the last few minute) — the best kind I’ve tasted!”
That does sound good. You’re right that a lot of American food is very bland.
Miss Marcia,
“I was watching a show on romance scammers and that’s what the guy did. DURING the first date … says they should take their profiles down; texts the next day with a “Hi, Babe” … (it’s odd to call someone a pet name if you’ve met them ONCE); by date three he told her he loved her. Some people would find that romantic. I’d find it over the top.”
That would freak me out completely 😨 ! In three days? Even in 3 months, one could hardly know another’s inside, especially in dating mode, when both sides put up their best “images” and behaviors. My x-brother-in-law broke up with his finance 8 months after their engagement and moving in together. He said, “Without living with a person day by day for a period of time (typically a year) , you just can’t know that person!”
“That’s happened to me as well. I ask a lot of questions and I’m a decent listener. And that has been misinterpreted. 🙂”
Despite my inquires were always sincere and my listening highly focused, I could quickly forget what they said, even just facts… IF they were not attractive enough or contents were too superficial (e.g. my cousins). But they’d never find out. 🤭
“There are many young people in my side hustle. (Early 20s and older.) I enjoy talking to them but I can’t take them seriously as romantic partners. Too young and no life experience.”
Age had little relevance in people’s attraction to me, even when I was much younger. Last night, I dreamt about my limerent friend, whose very first LO, at age of 17, was yours truly (23 yrs). I was a colleague of his parents and treated him as my little brother (I told this story before), who was shy, good looking, “steady” (not in his own marriages, now with the 3rd wife and the third daughter, respectively. 😇)
All those years, his family and I kept very loose friendship (they always lived in CA), and not one more ounce of affection for him is increased, despite his romantic pursuit during our divorces, respectively. It’s another example for me that Glimmer just cannot be cultivated. (we share very little in common)
“I grew up in a very clinical household. Too much of that makes my blood run cold.”
What does “clinical household” mean? Too much analysis? Well, if one’s entire environment/culture is like that, like COO, then one had little choice. In reality, because I read so many “touching/humanistic” classical books, my mind tended to push those cold reasonings aside but kept a certain amount of idealistic imaginations. … even real thought 👮♂️ did not know what’s going on in my head…🙄 🤣
“The book the movie is based on is a memoir. The author was an interesting person.”
Until you mentioned, I thought the author was a woman.
“I understand that. When I was young, I thought adulthood looked so boring. Adults did look numb. They looked dead! So regimented. I wanted no part of it. 🙂”
You’ll have to read “1984” to depict what adults in COO looked like. John Hurt was good in playing Winston.
“Are you referring to pair bonding in terms of procreating?”
Some people believe that hormone is key factor behind the pair-bonding drive and thus LE. But as we see clearly, older people who passed childbearing age, can still fall hard into LE. So I question that LE is driven by one’s biology alone.
“I know where you live. Do you have your own apartment? Is it pretty small? (Most apartments are small there.) Have you decorated it?”
Yes, I’ve been renting a pretty small, old apartment (rent stabilized, water &gas free) with separate doors — “a swallow with all independent organs”. I could have bought a bigger one before, but the monthly maintenance has been very high, and I didn’t want to become a mortgage “slave”.
Brag here 🤫: my walls are covered by one French neoclassical mythology-paintings(in canvas print or oil replicas) and some fake-antique wool narrative-tapestry from France. A lot of burgundy/rosy, warm cream, orange, and white colors…. What my eyes see when they open is vital to my mood — they need to arose some imaginations whoever I look at them. When I’m home, I don’t miss going anywhere else.
“I goggled it. That looks like a lot of food! 🙂”
I’m not going to buy all of related materials, my mother’s dining table is not big enough with the burning pot in the middle! I like hot pot style very much, everyone can choose whatever they like to dip in, and I don’t have to cook at all. 😀
I need to buy a gift for my regular physical therapist who is also treating my mother now — last week he walked her to the subway station since her lost incident in last month was made known to the entire PT office! What would be good to buy? He’s Thai, 30-35 yrs, nice, but paid me some unwanted attention before my Italian trip… then I told him my mother’s age… 😆 Now, another younger assistant (late 20s) to him is also “extra nice and chatty” to me, so I told him Mother is 330 years old…. 😊
I learned a piece of piano 🎹 riff today, it’s really nice.
Snow,
“That would freak me out completely 😨 ! In three days?”
Three dates. Not days. I don’t know the timeframe for the dates, but it seemed like too much, too soon.
” Even in 3 months, one could hardly know another’s inside, especially in dating mode, when both sides put up their best “images” and behaviors. ”
I agree. In terms of dating, I think 1 to 2 months of dating is enough to determine if you want to just date each other and see where things go. But for someone to say that on the first date — let’s take our profiles down — seems way too fast. With that kind of person, I’d worry they’d change their mind just as quickly.
“My x-brother-in-law broke up with his finance 8 months after their engagement and moving in together. He said, “Without living with a person day by day for a period of time (typically a year) , you just can’t know that person!””
That’s true.
“Despite my inquires were always sincere and my listening highly focused, I could quickly forget what they said, even just facts… IF they were not attractive enough or contents were too superficial (e.g. my cousins). But they’d never find out. 🤭”
I’m the same way. If what they’re telling me isn’t all that interesting, I’m not filing it away into my brain. Or, frankly, if it’s just a friendly acquittance or lower-level friend. It’s too much emotional investment for someone with whom I don’t have a strong connection.
“Age had little relevance in people’s attraction to me, even when I was much younger. Last night, I dreamt about my limerent friend, whose very first LO, at age of 17, was yours truly (23 yrs). ”
Ok, that’s 6 years. That’s not a big age difference. I’m talking about decades younger. I guess I could be attracted to someone much younger but I can’t see dating them. He’d have to be… you know … grown, with some life experience. 🙂
“It’s another example for me that Glimmer just cannot be cultivated. (we share very little in common)”
I agree. It’s there or it’s not.
“What does “clinical household” mean? Too much analysis?”
Cold. Joyless. Regimented.
“Until you mentioned, I thought the author was a woman.”
Yes, the author is a woman. She went to Africa and started a farm and had a relationship with a big game hunter.
“Some people believe that hormone is key factor behind the pair-bonding drive and thus LE. But as we see clearly, older people who passed childbearing age, can still fall hard into LE. So I question that LE is driven by one’s biology alone.”
Well, hormones don’t completely die as one gets older. 🙂 They’re still there, they’re just … not what they were. There’s nothing to recommend getting older. 🙂 But, no, I think LEs are driven by a combination of factors, depending on the person.
“Brag here 🤫: my walls are covered by one French neoclassical mythology-paintings(in canvas print or oil replicas) and some fake-antique wool narrative-tapestry from France. A lot of burgundy/rosy, warm cream, orange, and white colors…. What my eyes see when they open is vital to my mood — they need to arose some imaginations whoever I look at them. When I’m home, I don’t miss going anywhere else.”
Did you decorate it yourself?
“I’m not going to buy all of related materials, my mother’s dining table is not big enough with the burning pot in the middle! I like hot pot style very much, everyone can choose whatever they like to dip in, and I don’t have to cook at all. 😀”
In the pictures I saw, it looked very good. The meats looked very good.
“I need to buy a gift for my regular physical therapist who is also treating my mother now … What would be good to buy? He’s Thai, 30-35 yrs, nice”
Idk. Some chocolates? Maybe bring him some of your T-Day meal ? He might really enjoy that.
Miss Marcia,
“Three dates. Not days. I don’t know the timeframe for the dates, but it seemed like too much, too soon.”
No! Three dates won’t do! That means that other side only sees or has gone nuts about my appearance, but not my mind and soul; that’s not flattery, but insult to me, regardless of whether I like him or not.
”I agree. In terms of dating, I think 1 to 2 months of dating is enough to determine if you want to just date each other and see where things go. “
For me, a date of an hour would tell me whether it would develop into a possible romance… Without Glimmer, I would not have energy to even pretend being interested; I have the worst poker face. Perhaps you can still do it. Again, I’m not on and won’t get on a dating app, why are we talking about dating? 😃
“But for someone to say that on the first date — let’s take our profiles down — seems way too fast. With that kind of person, I’d worry they’d change their mind just as quickly.”
That’s not what I would worry about, if I were you. I’d worry he’s a romance scammer or a Don Quixote who just saw a “Windmill”, and then raise his sword ⚔️ — “Charge!” 😆
“I’m the same way. If what they’re telling me isn’t all that interesting, I’m not filing it away into my brain. Or, frankly, if it’s just a friendly acquittance or lower-level friend. It’s too much emotional investment for someone with whom I don’t have a strong connection.”
It’s natural for me that whatever they said came in one ear and went out of the other, soon or later. But to show respect and care, I could listen to them very well and responded with my thoughts about whatever topics were. It’s a kindness to let others feel to be listened to or heard, which occasionally could produce unexpected impact on the speaker — just don’t glimmer at me!
“Ok, that’s 6 years. That’s not a big age difference. “
Well in COO, 3 years younger than a gf/date is frowned upon — a ridiculous tradition! My weekend school supervisor complained (to a couple of COO female teachers) about this little age gap between her son and his gf, so I told them right away that LO#5 is 8 yrs younger than me, xSO 3… she immediately blushed and seriously apologized.
“I’m talking about decades younger. I guess I could be attracted to someone much younger but I can’t see dating them. “
Why not? Isn’t depending on the level of connection between two — body, mind, and soul❓ There are mature /wisemen in younger men or young/smart soul in older women; is emotional/mental/psychological maturity more or less important than chronological age in a lasting relationship?
You should interview French First Lady Briditte, who became his wife before his presidency, or ask Macron why a 15 yrs old boy was so stubborn to have waited several years to marry his HS teacher. My French godmother rolled her eyes, I just smiled — he went even further than Napoleon, is it a French ruler’s tradition ⁉️
“He’d have to be… you know … grown, with some life experience. 🙂”
What if he’s already had some life experience? Between your discussions with MJ, you seem to think it’s unfair /mismatch for older men keenly eyeing on much younger, pretty women, then what about younger men going after older, smart women for whatever reasons?
[“What does “clinical household” mean? Too much analysis?”]
“Cold. Joyless. Regimented.”
That sounds like my Mother when she was younger. Dad was very warm, humorous, forgiving and generous. He could bulge his big eyes trying to frighten my intended disobedience; but if you “badmouth” his daughter behind her, you’d see what he’d do to you — 😡 …🤭 !
“Well, hormones don’t completely die as one gets older. 🙂 They’re still there, they’re just … not what they were. There’s nothing to recommend getting older. 🙂 “
No one wants to get older, it’s a worse nature for women than men. Perhaps you should talk with your doctor for HRT, it can help women with many physiological or psychological issues that are related to aging, such as anxiety, depression, or bone density loss, etc…
“But, no, I think LEs are driven by a combination of factors, depending on the person.”
Most certainly!
“Did you decorate it yourself?”
Yes. I’m a DiY person, and a saving-money addict. I’ll try to get everything done first by myself and ask for help if I really can’t.
“In the pictures I saw, it looked very good. The meats looked very good.”
Yes, all meat and fishes are thinly sliced. Sitting around the steamy, boiling hot pot, drinking mulled wine and hot sake, dip in your favorite food to cook, and chitchatting is one of the winter holidays’ delights.
“Idk. Some chocolates? Maybe bring him some of your T-Day meal ? He might really enjoy that.”
Yes, a box of Belgium chocolate would do. No T-day or any kind of meals for COO people, it’s an insult to give leftovers even untouched. A basket of fruits or a big melon of any kind is fine.
Miss Snow,
“That means that other side only sees or has gone nuts about my appearance, but not my mind and soul; that’s not flattery, but insult to me, regardless of whether I like him or not.”
But what is glimmer? What it is based on? Not much because you can’t know much about the other person that early on. So if I feel the glimmer right away, it’s equally as shallow as being besotted based on someone’s appearance.
“For me, a date of an hour would tell me whether it would develop into a possible romance… ”
Yes, but you won’t ANNOUNCE that to the other person. I would never tell a guy I went on one date with that I thought we should be exclusive. That’s too soon. Even if I felt that way.
“Perhaps you can still do it. Again, I’m not on and won’t get on a dating app, why are we talking about dating? 😃”
BECAUSE YOU ASKED ABOUT ROMANTIC GESTURES!
“It’s natural for me that whatever they said came in one ear and went out of the other, soon or later. But to show respect and care, I could listen to them very well and responded with my thoughts about whatever topics were.”
I’m listening when they are talking and hearing them, but if we’re not close I’m not going to remember what they say in any great detail. I might remember the basics, but not the specifics. That they have kids? Yes, I’ll remember that. What their names are and how old they are? No, not unless we’ve both invested in the friendship and we’re close.
” It’s a kindness to let others feel to be listened to or heard, which occasionally could produce unexpected impact on the speaker — just don’t glimmer at me!”
In my case, I don’t know if they glimmered. I can’t tell you exactly what was going on in their heads. But they thought I was interested.
“so I told them right away that LO#5 is 8 yrs younger than me, xSO 3… she immediately blushed and seriously apologized.”
I mean, from my personal opinion, up to 10 years, either older or younger, is fine. I don’t consider that a huge age difference.
“Why not? Isn’t depending on the level of connection between two — body, mind, and soul❓ There are mature /wisemen in younger men or young/smart soul in older women; is emotional/mental/psychological maturity more or less important than chronological age in a lasting relationship?”
Because it has to be someone I can look up to and respect and go to for advice, and I don’t think you can understand what it’s like to, for example, be middle-aged until you are middle-aged. And of course there’s the aging issue. If I’m older, I’ll be looking older that much faster.
“You should interview French First Lady Briditte, who became his wife before his presidency, or ask Macron why a 15 yrs old boy was so stubborn to have waited several years to marry his HS teacher. My French godmother rolled her eyes, I just smiled — he went even further than Napoleon, is it a French ruler’s tradition ⁉️”
That whole thing is creepy.
“What if he’s already had some life experience? Between your discussions with MJ, you seem to think it’s unfair /mismatch for older men keenly eyeing on much younger, pretty women, then what about younger men going after older, smart women for whatever reasons?”
I fully support younger men and older women. 🙂 But … I think the older woman has to be realistic. There’s a big chance it won’t last.
“That sounds like my Mother when she was younger. Dad was very warm, humorous, forgiving and generous. ”
What do you think attracted them to each other if they were so different?
“No one wants to get older, it’s a worse nature for women than men. Perhaps you should talk with your doctor for HRT, it can help women with many physiological or psychological issues that are related to aging, such as anxiety, depression, or bone density loss, etc…”
I’m not a fan of putting fake hormones into my body. But either way … they won’t return you to what you were. That ship has sailed. 🙂
“Yes, all meat and fishes are thinly sliced. Sitting around the steamy, boiling hot pot, drinking mulled wine and hot sake, dip in your favorite food to cook, and chitchatting is one of the winter holidays’ delights.”
It looked very good.
“No T-day or any kind of meals for COO people, it’s an insult to give leftovers even untouched.”
Oh, ok. I did not know that. That’s good to know.
For me, I’d prefer the food, even if leftovers, as I can buy the chocolates myself but would love a good, homecooked meal.
Miss Marcia,
“But what is glimmer? What it is based on? Not much because you can’t know much about the other person that early on. So if I feel the glimmer right away, it’s equally as shallow as being besotted based on someone’s appearance.”
Yes! I now agree with you on Glimmer’s shallowness. Understanding LE better, I now think Glimmer is bewitching and whimsical. It’s largely based on someone’s appearance which might be the Bottom! 🐷 (the 12th night). That’s how crazy Glimmer can be! One can follow it as an indication of attraction, but not get married in 3 dates or exclusive after one date, unwise, unwise❗️
“Yes, but you won’t ANNOUNCE that to the other person. I would never tell a guy I went on one date with that I thought we should be exclusive. That’s too soon. Even if I felt that way.”
That would be cautiously wise.
“BECAUSE YOU ASKED ABOUT ROMANTIC GESTURES!”
My Romantic Gestures would be given much later after big mutual Glimmer., probably during serious, exclusive dating phrase. And the other side is NOT from any apps‼️
As I said before, shadow Glimmer never existed in any apps for me. It only took place by surprise, and there were BOTTOMs in my high school or out of a dream — God knows what happened in my psyche! 😵💫 Luckily, I never went out with those Bottoms.
“In my case, I don’t know if they glimmered. I can’t tell you exactly what was going on in their heads. But they thought I was interested.”
You were talking about your dates, I’m talking about meeting people and animals in general. You can detect whether their eyes sparkled or if young kids (under 7) smiled or “chased” you with their Mommy. I certainly won’t know what’s going on in the head of dogs and horses, except their reactions 😳
“Because it has to be someone I can look up to and respect and go to for advice.”
Are you saying, you could never look up, respect, or get advice from any men or women of 20-30 years younger than you? In theory and reality, anyone with more knowledge and experiences, not their age, could be respectable for me, because mine has been limited, and will always be. No one can TRULY know everything, except some limited facts.
In the past with MY longing hidden inside, I always searched for a surrogate parent, from whom I thought I could look up, respect and get advice, and Glimmer + Longing made me feel smaller than I was — even putting myself down.
Now, in hindsight, I could see that all my big or small crushes/LOs were no smarter nor more foolish than me. We were all equals with our limitation, flaws, and vulnerability. That idiotic fleshy Glimmer itself blinded my discerning 👁️ just about every single time… 😕 But I did learn a lot of stuff from those unsuccessful LE encounters, as you know some. Adversity/pains is our best teachers in life!
I understand your wishes, similar to most of women in both worlds. I just think it NEEDs to be mutual in both parties — mutually loved, looked up, respected, learned and taught — Greek style of true friendship, which has to be a HALF of a substantial lasting relationship: Romance + Friendship. I would NOT go for anything less, especially after my Longing is going.
Two days ago, in my local supermarket a block away, I bumped into one of my small crushes 5/6 from ages ago. He was a “Narc” with a very high title/honor and position in academia of Arts. The twice-divorced him went after beautiful, much younger women one after another in the Ivory League college. I resisted his amorous interest/pursuit — tried to get me to work in his sector. I saw his wolfy gaze searching in my eyes during the “official” internal interview, very disturbing.
He still looked distinguished in the market, but I felt nothing and didn’t even say “Hi”, I could and perhaps should. Our whole department once had a holiday dinner at his beautiful apartment facing the signature river of the town, I handmade over 200 sushi at his home…. Now, I didn’t even care whether he saw me or not. Time erases/dilutes the past❗️
“I don’t think you can understand what it’s like to, for example, be middle-aged until you are middle-aged. And of course there’s the aging issue. If I’m older, I’ll be looking older that much faster.”
Hmm… 🤔 So you’re saying that I were at your age, I’d feel same as you do? Do you think Binoche, Mirren or Jane Fonda (they are all single as far as I know) feel the similar way as you do?
“That whole thing is creepy.”
Well, I’d like to know, WHY the whole thing is “creepy” to you, if they’re happy enjoying each other’s company and still kicking and leading France? How do you define “creepy”?
“I fully support younger men and older women. 🙂 But … I think the older woman has to be realistic. There’s a big chance it won’t last.”
You’re absolutely right. In most cases I’ve read, younger men went after the older women’s wealth, the older women after younger men’s youth, and generously showered the latter with materials and money. Very rare, the union is for a true love or happy companionship, but it exists as I read in magazine with convincing photos (I told you). Perhaps, it can happen to you if you’re open to it❓
“What do you think attracted them to each other if they were so different?”
They knew each other since middle school, since 13-16 years old; Mom was my aunt’s classmate so went their home often. My Granny was highly against the union, and there were tons of young women after Dad, who was extrovert and flamboyant with musical skills and somewhat good look. Mom was an introvert and patient, always quiet sitting at the corner of his home listening to conversations. She was aesthetically beautiful, not showy during her teenage.
“I’m not a fan of putting fake hormones into my body. But either way … they won’t return you to what you were. That ship has sailed. 🙂”
Oh, my dear! Without the fake thyroid hormone in my body since 2020’s surgery, I WILL literally die in 10-15 days! If you haven’t tried HRT, how do you know “that ship has sailed”? All western medicine is artificial/fake, but they have saved millions of lives (they’re not preventable), we need to respect biology and science more in this arena.
“Oh, ok. I did not know that. That’s good to know.”
Asian people, by comparison, have ridiculous amount of superstitions, unwritten rules, and unspoken taboos. Even myself got very annoyed by them whenever I visited COO…. I tried my best to obey some “rituals”… 😃
“For me, I’d prefer the food, even if leftovers, as I can buy the chocolates myself but would love a good, home-cooked meal”
The message in giving one’s leftover would be: you’re not important enough to be invited to dine with us for the freshly cooked meal, but we could give you the leftover like giving them to street dogs. That’s just a pure insult!
Many COO folks (my old classmates) are very hospitable (even if for showy reasons), sometimes even beyond my beliefs! If they know you’re alone during holidays, they’d just invite you to dine with them day after day! You can take leftover home only if you are a part of that meal.
So do you want to fly to my town for my T-hot pot 🥣 ❓🤗
(I had an early nap… thus up the whole night again 😊)
Snow,
“It’s largely based on someone’s appearance which might be the Bottom! 🐷 (the 12th night). That’s how crazy Glimmer can be!”
My glimmers are, to some extent, based on appearance … but it’s more about chemistry because they’re are a lot of good-looking men I don’t glimmer for or barely glimmer for.
“One can follow it as an indication of attraction, but not get married in 3 dates or exclusive after one date, unwise, unwise❗️”
Yes, I agree. Use it as an indication you’re interested but you still need to take time to get to know the person.
“As I said before, shadow Glimmer never existed in any apps for me.”
I can tell if someone is cute/attractive from an app. Or at least my idea of attractive. But I have to meet them in person to feel a glimmer. I haven’t done video calls. Maybe that could cause a glimmer. Then you’re experiencing their voice, mannerisms, etc. But a one-dimensional picture and some messaging/texting don’t cause glimmer.
“Luckily, I never went out with those Bottoms.”
I’m not sure what you mean by “bottoms.”
“You were talking about your dates, I’m talking about meeting people and animals in general. ”
No, I wasn’t talking about dates. You keep bringing it back to dating. I’m not sure why. I’m not dating now and I don’t think you are. 🙂 I was referring to guys I talked to — at work, at school — who seemed to get the idea I was interested by my questions and conversations with them.
“Are you saying, you could never look up, respect, or get advice from any men or women of 20-30 years younger than you?”
It would depend on what it is. “Life advice”? Probably not. They could have other qualities I admired.
“I understand your wishes, similar to most of women in both worlds. I just think it NEEDs to be mutual in both parties — mutually loved, looked up, respected, learned and taught”
Yes, I agree. That’s why I would be looking for someone who brought some different qualities to the table. Things I might not have. I’m assuming I’d bring things to the table they didn’t have. You complement each other. No one has everything.
“He still looked distinguished in the market, but I felt nothing and didn’t even say “Hi”, I could and perhaps should. Our whole department once had a holiday dinner at his beautiful apartment facing the signature river of the town, I handmade over 200 sushi at his home…. Now, I didn’t even care whether he saw me or not. Time erases/dilutes the past❗️”
That’s interesting that you didn’t even feel the need to say hello. I never bump into any of my past crushes or LOs. I wonder how I would feel about seeing them now.
“So you’re saying that I were at your age, I’d feel same as you do? ”
I’m saying that you have to live through certain life phases to understand them. A young person will not know what it is to be middle-aged. Just as I won’t know what it is to be an older person.
“Well, I’d like to know, WHY the whole thing is “creepy” to you, if they’re happy enjoying each other’s company and still kicking and leading France? How do you define “creepy”?”
Isn’t it obvious? He was 15 when they met. She was 39, married and with kids. They got married when he was 30. Was he fixated on her the whole time? If so, sounds unhealthy.
“In most cases I’ve read, younger men went after the older women’s wealth, the older women after younger men’s youth, and generously showered the latter with materials and money. ”
I meant that he may want children. Or to be with someone closer to his own age at some point. I think it can be a true love situation … but often it’s more of … they’re having some temporary fun.
“They knew each other since middle school, since 13-16 years old; Mom was my aunt’s classmate so went their home often. My Granny was highly against the union, and there were tons of young women after Dad, who was extrovert and flamboyant with musical skills and somewhat good look. Mom was an introvert and patient, always quiet sitting at the corner of his home listening to conversations. She was aesthetically beautiful, not showy during her teenage.”
It sounds like a case of opposites attracting.
“If you haven’t tried HRT, how do you know “that ship has sailed”? ”
I meant that the ship has sailed for it to restore me to my youth.
“All western medicine is artificial/fake, but they have saved millions of lives (they’re not preventable), we need to respect biology and science more in this arena.”
I disagree. Depending on the situation … I’m not speaking of your situation … but about female issues around menopause … best to START with diet/exercise/meditation/sleep/supplements BEFORE thinking about HRT. HRT should be a last resort.
“Asian people, by comparison, have ridiculous amount of superstitions, unwritten rules, and unspoken taboos. Even myself got very annoyed by them whenever I visited COO…. I tried my best to obey some “rituals”… 😃”
Here’s a question … let’s say I have an Asian neighbor and I bring him/her some food, thinking I’m being a good neighbor. Say I made some brownies or something. Would they be offended or would they think I was probably ignorant of their rituals?
“The message in giving one’s leftover would be: you’re not important enough to be invited to dine with us for the freshly cooked meal, but we could give you the leftover like giving them to street dogs. That’s just a pure insult!”
Got it. But for the record, I would still take some of your Hot Pot leftovers. 🙂
“If they know you’re alone during holidays, they’d just invite you to dine with them day after day! You can take leftover home only if you are a part of that meal.”
I think that’s sweet. Ok, I just got invited to a dinner. I’m not going to go. I don’t know this person that well, but it was sweet to be thought of. I do have two different social plans next week with friends.
“So do you want to fly to my town for my T-hot pot 🥣 ❓🤗”
I know where you live. I would fly there just to see the city. 🙂 But, yes, the Hot Pot sounds good.
Miss Marcia,
Just woke up from a making up nap, since I stayed up the previous night. I had a massive, marathon dream involving my sole adventurous travel in Czechoslovakia, getting lost with its train system, getting help from a lovely young women with a short hair… some city scenes… and then got lost in another Eastern European country in icy cold winter and in quiet woods(?)…. I never been to any of Eastern European countries, and have no desires to be a total tourist there — knowing not a single acquaintance. I’ve decided not to travel “alone” but my dream made me to do it 😕 — the disobedient Unconscious❗️
In my second half dream, guess what/whom I dreamt? 😊 — Day-Lewis! The first time for one of my idol actors! In the dream, he was my husband, middle-aged, not so slim, quiet and reliable, like one of his characters. I had only one scene: after my outdoor exercises, he was standing on a country road near a big tree, ready to jog. He said he had some pains on his low back, so I pulled up his sweat shirt checking his lower back, he said it had some injury there before. Then I said something like that none of my friends knew that he was my husband; if they knew, they’d definitely try to steal him away. He just smiled. I think (?) he said something like there was no need to tell others about the fact… Then I woke up.
“My glimmers are, to some extent, based on appearance … but it’s more about chemistry because they’re are a lot of good-looking men I don’t glimmer for or barely glimmer for.”
Appearance does not just include one’s look, but one’s overall looking with one’s air. I’ve literally passed by hundreds of good looking men in my town and other places (7 times alone in France, 3 in Italy) but felt nothing. I began to think that chemistry is unreliable “beast”, but Romanticism has gloried or worshiped its existence‼️🙄
“Yes, I agree. Use it as an indication you’re interested but you still need to take time to get to know the person.”
I think the Eastern nations are doing this better, because one’s virtues and characters are stressed in romance /marriage, which they want to last. Love/romance addict is unheard of up to this day.
“I can tell if someone is cute/attractive from an app. Or at least my idea of attractive.”
My intuitive 👁️ seems to see indescribable stuff, particularly one’s vulnerabilities, through one’s eyes in a photo. One picture would tell me who would NOT glimmer for me decisively, so I didn’t even go for one date with them.
“I’m not sure what you mean by “bottoms.”
It refers the character Bottom 🐷 in “12th Night”. A couple of very common looking boy/men glimmered for me, making me fixed on them for a few months.
“It would depend on what it is. “Life advice”? Probably not. They could have other qualities I admired.”
I’m at a point where I rely MOST on my own life advice. In theory, everyone has some qualities admirable, even if we already have them.
“That’s why I would be looking for someone who brought some different qualities to the table. Things I might not have. I’m assuming I’d bring things to the table they didn’t have. You complement each other. No one has everything.”
Well, I have some reservation on the traditional thinking of “completing”/compensating/complementing each other. Check this:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/obsessive-love-explained/#comment-113949.
I agree with it very much.
Now I know there are things one just CANNOT get from or give to others, which I believe is vital to one’s substantial happiness and to a relationship/friendship success.
“You” here is plural:
1. Validation: if you can’t validate yourself, no one else can.
2. respect: if you respect yourself, you won’t need/want others’ respect.
3. Love: if you don’t love yourself as a whole why would others do? Moreover, you won’t able to give love to your beloved ones.
That’s what I meant in my previous message: cultivate in yourself first whatever you desire/wish in others. A truly loving/supportive hand can/will help assist your journey, but can’t do the work for you‼️
If you lean on your tango partner, soon or later, he’d be exhausted and switch to another partner. No bird can fly while carrying another bird of its own size.
“That’s interesting that you didn’t even feel the need to say hello. I never bump into any of my past crushes or LOs. I wonder how I would feel about seeing them now.”
This “big” professor (his 2nd wife was a Harvard professor) was so arrogant, flamboyant with a bad temper and lusty eyes for much younger women that I “hated” myself for having him stuck in my head for 1.5 years. I was proud to have resisted his subtle “courting”❗️ He’s sensitive enough to know I was avoiding his wolfy gaze (he’s 14 yrs older). Much later I saw him in our shared park walking with a cleaning-lady look woman, I laughed heartedly 😆 — he got his karma! (He was alone in the market the other day).
I saw LO#6’s (4 yrs younger with a common appearnce) photo in Twister 2 years ago, I was shocked 😱 — like seeing the picture of Doran Gray in a decade… Now, I ask you shouldn’t we think twice about that Glimmer before we go chasing it?
When I know/say “a matter” is over, it truly becomes an irretrievable ghost in the past. That’s why I questioned whether I was “cruel/heartless”. I always felt sad or sorrowful when I no longer cared about a good LO/limerent — he lost my care, lost his position in my head, not the other way around — that’s his business anyway…
“I’m saying that you have to live through certain life phases to understand them. A young person will not know what it is to be middle-aged. Just as I won’t know what it is to be an older person.”
What you’re saying here might be true if we grew up in the similar cultural/familiar background, and mature in the similar mentality/psychology through our educational and professional trainings. But that’s not the case. You (universal) might be loudly rebellious for no-causes, and I am a small rebel smartly, selfishly quietly “battle” for my own wellbeing…
So we may feel differently even in similar life phrases. I’ve never seen/heard anyone, male or female, from COO whining about the middle age so madly & “desperately” as limerents here do. Age over there used to be revered and related to knowledgeable experiences and wisdoms… LwL, as a miniature of the society, is a priceless classroom for me… 😃
“Isn’t it obvious? He was 15 when they met. She was 39, married and with kids. “
Not obvious to me at all❗️ During puberty, one could fall for anyone, Helen of Troy or Bottom of 12th Night. Often, the budding love is quite pure, memorable to the “suffering” teen. Do you still remember your first crush?
“They got married when he was 30. Was he fixated on her the whole time? If so, sounds unhealthy.”
Like you, I don’t know the answer to your “fixation” question; but you assume the worst, when I wonder about its possible best — he was just loyal and respectful to his profound amorous feelings for her. They knew each other well through the drama class, although she was a teacher, not the other way around.
So when they got married, she’s 54 at your age. If you had a boy devoted/swore his heart to you since age of 15, and despite of life’s Sun’s ups or downs, he still wants to marry you 15 years late, how would you feel an do❓ Doubt his mental health after 15 years😉❓ Why the society frowns so much upon on their union, which is still working? What moral code did they break aside from she’s 24 years older⁉️
When does loyalty/faithfulness/oath to one’s romance or any important virtue become “creepy”❓ Isn’t wonton heart, game playing behavior, love addiction much frowned upon/condemned in all cultures❓ Isn’’t “live happily ever after” in marriage one of the universal dreams❓ I don’t think anything or anything can ever break Macron’s union; let’s wait and see….
“I meant that he may want children. Or to be with someone closer to his own age at some point. “
Well, if a man ever considers having blood-heir in his lifetime, 99.99% perhaps, he would/should not go for a much older woman.
“I think it can be a true love situation … but often it’s more of … they’re having some temporary fun.”
Well Macron, 1 out of 1 million, or 1 out of 10 millions, just gave you the answer; perhaps his discipline, determination nature, like Napoleon, paved the road to his presidency, as one French news speculated/commented.
Once I saw a news of a 50 yrs Taiwanese pretty, wealthy artist marrying a 29 yrs Taiwanese man, and he left her after 1~2 years. So I read one successful and one failed “age-mismatch” ordinary couples. That 84 yrs lady with her husband in his 60s was either from “Time” or “New Yorker”, the only two magazine I rarely scanned through.
“It sounds like a case of opposites attracting.”
I think so.
“I meant that the ship has sailed for it to restore me to my youth.”
It happens to everyone — a universally shared human nature.
“I disagree. Depending on the situation … I’m not speaking of your situation … but about female issues around menopause … best to START with diet /exercise /meditation /sleep /supplements BEFORE thinking about HRT. HRT should be a last resort.”
As we discussed before, herbal medicine and healthy life style is prevential taking care of the root, and Western medication is to fix obvious symptoms without dealing the root. However, we human bodies are made of chemicals that include hormones, which are one of the roots. If one hormone is run out, it will “masses up” the entire system until one dies.
Now, if some medicines could possibly (not definitely) help reduce a half population’s physical miseries in aging, or save lives (in some women’s cases) ins’t it worth to give it a try at least (for your disturbing sleeps)? Did you read SL’s and Mila’s posts about it?
“Here’s a question … let’s say I have an Asian neighbor and I bring him/her some food, thinking I’m being a good neighbor. Say I made some brownies or something. Would they be offended or would they think I was probably ignorant of their rituals?
Oh, desserts are fine (not a part of main courses) as long as it is given in “whole piece”, not in cut, partial pieces . A round shape is better, symbolizing a harmonious unity.
“Got it. But for the record, I would still take some of your Hot Pot leftovers. 🙂”
Oh, no. It would hurt my gut to give leftovers to you or anyone, unless you’ve dined with me for that meal. You Americans are so “strange” 🙃
“I do have two different social plans next week with friends.”
That would be great to spend relaxing time with friends!
“I know where you live. I would fly there just to see the city. 🙂 But, yes, the Hot Pot sounds good.”
I live in the “center” of the galaxy…. Yes, plan to visit my town when it’s warmer. The Hot Pot can be served anytime in a year. 🍜
Miss Snow,
“I’ve decided not to travel “alone” but my dream made me to do it 😕 — the disobedient Unconscious❗️”
It sounds like your unconscious wants you to travel. 🙂
“In my second half dream, guess what/whom I dreamt? 😊 — Day-Lewis! The first time for one of my idol actors! In the dream, he was my husband, middle-aged, not so slim, quiet and reliable, like one of his characters.”
Did you see “Phantom Thread”? He’s manipulative and beyond controlling. I really liked the movie, but he’s not “quiet and reliable.” You should watch it if you haven’t. Or “There Will Be Blood.” He’s a sociopath in that. (Same director, both good movies.)
“Appearance does not just include one’s look, but one’s overall looking with one’s air.”
That’s what chemistry is. And the energy between you and the other person.
“One picture would tell me who would NOT glimmer for me decisively, so I didn’t even go for one date with them.”
How can you tell who won’t glimmer for you?
“A couple of very common looking boy/men glimmered for me, making me fixed on them for a few months.”
So them glimmering for you made you interested in them?
I “hated” myself for having him stuck in my head for 1.5 years. ”
What about him got him stuck in your head?
“I saw LO#6’s (4 yrs younger with a common appearnce) photo in Twister 2 years ago, I was shocked 😱 — like seeing the picture of Doran Gray in a decade… Now, I ask you shouldn’t we think twice about that Glimmer before we go chasing it?”
I’m not really sure what you’re referring to, but, yes, I think we need to react slowly if we experience glimmer. Take the time to get to know the person.
“Age over there used to be revered and related to knowledgeable experiences and wisdom … ”
We’ve talked about this before. It’s not aging people whine about, to use your word, but losing their sexual viability. I am not bringing this up to discuss validation and self-worth. Just responding to what you wrote.
“Do you still remember your first crush?”
Yes, but I wasn’t chasing him around 15 years later.
“So when they got married, she’s 54 at your age. If you had a boy devoted/swore his heart to you since age of 15, and despite of life’s Sun’s ups or downs, he still wants to marry you 15 years late, how would you feel an do❓”
That something was off with him. I’d also worry about being that much older than he is as I age.
“When does loyalty/faithfulness/oath to one’s romance or any important virtue become “creepy”❓”
Because he was a teenager. Teenage boys have the attention span of a gnat. They’re still growing and changing and maturing. Once he left high school and went on to college, he should have gotten over her and moved on. That’s if he was fixated on her from 15 to 30. As you wrote, I don’t know that for sure.
“Once I saw a news of a 50 yrs Taiwanese pretty, wealthy artist marrying a 29 yrs Taiwanese man, and he left her after 1~2 years. ”
Why did he leave her?
“As we discussed before, herbal medicine and healthy life style is preventative taking care of the root, and Western medication is to fix obvious symptoms without dealing the root.”
I agree.
“Now, if some medicines could possibly (not definitely) help reduce a half population’s physical miseries in aging, or save lives (in some women’s cases) ins’t it worth to give it a try at least (for your disturbing sleeps)? Did you read SL’s and Mila’s posts about it?”
If a woman feels she really needs it, she should take it. I don’t think my symptoms are that serious.
“Oh, desserts are fine (not a part of main courses) as long as it is given in “whole piece”, not in cut, partial pieces . A round shape is better, symbolizing a harmonious unity.”
So I’d have to bring the whole brownie pan and not just a few brownies?
“Oh, no. It would hurt my gut to give leftovers to you or anyone, unless you’ve dined with me for that meal. You Americans are so “strange” 🙃”
I would NOT be offended to get leftovers. 🙂
Marcia,
“It sounds like your unconscious wants you to travel. 🙂”
Previously I talked with others about my dreams: I “can’t” make absolutely decisions, otherwise something opposite would happen in my dreams. This fits Jungian dream theory — what’s repressed down would appear in dreams.
Traveling to a total new place without knowing of a soul, even just an old acquaintance, is very haunting to me. 🆎 NO more!
“Did you see “Phantom Thread”? He’s manipulative and beyond controlling. I really liked the movie, but he’s not “quiet and reliable.” You should watch it if you haven’t. Or “There Will Be Blood.” He’s a sociopath in that. (Same director, both good movies.)”
I saw the both and did not like either his characters; I referred to his earlier movies: “age of innocent”, “left foot,” “the last of the Mohicans”, “Lincoln”, etc. The last part of the “the unbearable light of being” — when a “playboy” finally settled with Theresa in a country cottage is quite touching — he felt the essence of ordinary living and finally felt peaceful and happy.
“How can you tell who won’t glimmer for you?”
I don’t know, just intuition that can detect some personality traits or energy in the still eyes, like in paintings of museum. I was Never wrong! (Tested a few).
“So them glimmering for you made you interested in them?”
Oh, No. I meant I suddenly glimmered at them (they glimmered for my odd eyes only) — equivalent of a “Bottom” of 12th night🙄 , without knowing why or out of a dream about them. They all got “startled” but none lasted more than 6 months.
“What about him got him stuck in your head?”
I just could NOT figure it out back then! 🤔 Now, knowing what LE is, I think it’s probably his crude pair-bond energy, without sweetness but a wolf’s hunger. Luckily, my logical mind was very strong. His Narc traits were so awful regardless of his academic achievement.
“I’m not really sure what you’re referring to, but, yes, I think we need to react slowly if we experience glimmer. Take the time to get to know the person.”
LO#6 did not have a handsome or sweet face to begin with On the photo, I thought I saw a criminal/devil with terribly wrinkles and shrunk face, and somewhat vicious expression, like the picture of Doran Gray in the movie. 😱
In hindsight , I began to doubt this overrated Glimmer business. They might be “right” for a hot bed, but not for a lasting, fulfilling relationship.
“We’ve talked about this before. It’s not aging people whine about, to use your word, but losing their sexual viability.”
Sexuality exists in the East, too, my Dear. It’s overrated in the West, instead of a stronger connection of mind and spirit. What do you think of Model, Carmen Dell’Orefice at age of 94? She has GRACE and is sexy in my eyes.
“Yes, but I wasn’t chasing him around 15 years later.”
Me, neither. We’re just commoners fitting the common psychology that applies to the majority.
“That something was off with him. I’d also worry about being that much older than he is as I age.”
That’s a cynical view against a Unicorn case. He fits the ROMANTIC IDEAL, which seems only to exist in classical literature.
I don’t know about her mind but I agree that physical intimacy is not limited just to sex. And Jane Fond has shown what an aged woman could do in dating.
“Because he was a teenager. Teenage boys have the attention span of a gnat. They’re still growing and changing and maturing. “
Yes for 99.99% true. But for any social/psychology rules, there’d be always few exceptions. We can’t generalize people 💯 percent. Macron might be one out of 1/10 millions; and ONLY one Napoleon in the entire human history.
“Once he left high school and went on to college, he should have gotten over her and moved on.”
Here goes the word, “should”. Some people naturally /psychologically don’t follow societal “shoulds”. Victory Hugo’s or George Sand’s characters do not follow such a “should” in ideally romantic, touching ways…
“That’s if he was fixated on her from 15 to 30. As you wrote, I don’t know that for sure.”
Does it matter even if his love “strayed” in between 15 years? He didn’t marry anyone else! He sworn to come back to marry her (even she doubted it), then he fellowed through his words! The rest is the ongoing history! I’d be flattered/honored over to the Moon, whether I still hold the feeling for him or not. I don’t think she knew that one day she’d become the First Lady of France.
“Why did he leave her?”
I don’t remember what article (only had her photo) said, maybe he’s after her money(?) or she can’t meet his physical needs(?). In traditional Taiwanese culture, it’s just IMPOSSIBLE.
“If a woman feels she really needs it, she should take it. I don’t think my symptoms are that serious.”
That’s good! It may worsen later, though. Every body is different.
“So I’d have to bring the whole brownie pan and not just a few brownies?”
Yes. Cutting things to pieces symbolized division or separation, which most people don’t like for friendship or just harmonious connections with neighbors.
“I would NOT be offended to get leftovers. 🙂”
That would be your “business”. We would do what’s respectable and right according to virtues/rituals — natural Stoic. We would not treat someone like a street dog even if they ask for it, e.g. some disrespectful/degenerating sexual behaviors — peeing over or whipping a body).
One is responsible for one’s own virtuous actions, not others’ reactions.
Snow,
“Traveling to a total new place without knowing of a soul, even just an old acquaintance, is very haunting to me. 🆎 NO more!”
I don’t really travel by myself but I have moved places where I knew no one.
“I saw the both and did not like either his characters; I referred to his earlier movies”
His character in “Phantom Thread” kind of reminded me of an ex-semi LO from years ago. Hard to figure out, seductive. I suspect he had some of those controlling tendencies as well. If you’re hanging out with him, he’s the one making the rules. So I found the movie interesting.
“I don’t know, just intuition that can detect some personality traits or energy in the still eyes, like in paintings of museum. I was Never wrong! (Tested a few).”
Did you meet these guys in person? And you could tell from their reactions/behavior toward you they weren’t glimmering?
“They all got “startled” but none lasted more than 6 months.”
You mean your glimmer didn’t last longer than 6 months?
“His Narc traits were so awful regardless of his academic achievement.”
That sounds like the ex-semi LO I referenced above. Accomplished but a narc. Oh, the spinning plates of women he had going on at the same time. I’d never seen anything like it at the time and haven’t since.
“saw a criminal/devil with terribly wrinkles and shrunk face, and somewhat vicious expression, like the picture of Doran Gray in the movie. 😱”
Are you talking about the movie with Ben Barnes? How could you take your eyes off of Colin Firth? 🙂 I’ve read the book. I love Oscar Wilde.
“They might be “right” for a hot bed, but not for a lasting, relationship.”
So if you’re not looking for the glimmer to indicate your interest to you, what are you looking for?
“What do you think of Model, Carmen Dell’Orefice at age of 94? She has GRACE and is sexy in my eyes.”
She’s gorgeous. But there’s no way she hasn’t had work done.
I really admire Helen Mirren. She’s attractive, but it’s her confidence. Rapper 50 Center has openly talked about his crush on her. And he’s 30 years younger than she is. I love him. 🙂
” And Jane Fond has shown what an aged woman could do in dating.”
From an interview two years ago, she said she’s done with dating. Has no interest in getting naked with someone.
“I’d be flattered/honored over to the Moon, whether I still hold the feeling for him or not. I don’t think she knew that one day she’d become the First Lady of France.”
I might be flattered but I wouldn’t marry someone 24 years younger. That age difference will eventually bite you in the butt. Whether it’s an older woman/younger man or younger woman/older man.
“Yes. Cutting things to pieces symbolized division or separation, which most people don’t like for friendship or just harmonious connections with neighbors.”
This is very interesting to me. I never would have thought that.
“That would be your “business”. We would do what’s respectable and right according to virtues/rituals — natural Stoic. We would not treat someone like a street dog even if they ask for it, e.g. some disrespectful/degenerating sexual behaviors — peeing over or whipping a body).”
How about if you’re going through a drive-thru at a fast-food restaurant and there’s an unhoused person nearby. If you offer to buy them a meal (a whole meal, not part of one), is that considered rude?
To Miss Snow:
You won’t believe this–I dreamed about YOU last night.
I can’t remember any details, but I was wearing the same damn trenchcoat from YOUR dream!
There’s a comedy skit in there somewhere. I don’t even have a trenchcoat, nor do I like them.
😹 my dreams are contagious… 😂
It’s “dangerous” to tell one’s dreams — one’s Unconscious, but it’s best to learn about and relieve one’s stresses of all kinds— overt or covert ones…
Let’s see if lady Marcia will dream about me tonight… 😃
Miss Norma, I did/do not have a trench coat, and beige color in anything doesn’t work with me…
I actually used to have a forest green trench coat, but it was uncomfortable and I gave it away.
One of my daughters used to have a powder blue trench coat.
I can’t believe I just remembered that.
I am getting a surprisingly high number of birthday wishes today, for which I am very grateful.
LO texted me and said, “I feel blessed to have you in my life.” I thought, well, he should. Don’t know if I can say the same about him.
We were supposed to get together, but I think it has fallen through. I am grateful to notice that I don’t mind much. He said, “I’m glad you’ve turned another year older,” to which I responded that I am simply turning 12 again due to arrested development.
One friend gave me an orchid, another, balloons, and another, bundt cake.
So I am all set.
You need another friend to give you a bottle of wine.
Or a Limmy!
To L.E.:
I don’t drink, but I am sorely in need of a Limmy.
I am counting the minutes to dinner time so I can have that bundt cake for dessert.
It’s from a place called Nothing Bundt Cakes, and it’s FABULOUS. My neighbor bought me the chocolate-chocolate-chip one, which I have never had. OMG, I can’t wait!
ND,
Happy Birthday to you..
Hope you enjoy your Bundt cake..
I know Brother Adam would love to share some and Wine and Cheese with you. Followed by Lobster Bisque.. 🦞🦞😆 😂
To MJ:
Can’t drink wine, but would love the rest.
Well, I had my bundt cake all out and ready to eat, and LO called and wanted to get together.
So we spent about an hour together and he gave me some sweets from a place called Crumbl.
We had a nice time, no drama, and I noticed that I was able to enjoy his company without getting overly “limmy” around him. Maybe it’s wearing off. It certainly makes for a more stable friendship.
Happy belated birthday Norma!!
To Mila:
Thank you! It ended up being a lot better than I expected.
To MJ:
I want to go on the record as saying that I am unwilling to force Adam to eat any more lobster bisque, since I now know that he doesn’t really like it and was just being polite.
Since I can’t drink wine, I guess that just leaves cheese?
It probably doesn’t have to just be cheese. Brother Adam will provide you the finest meal money can buy. Whatever your preference. 😆
Happy belated birthday, Norma, and I’m glad your LO was nice to you. 🙂 I think I must’ve been limerent for a certain friend who’s gay, but just knowing they can’t or won’t return your feelings can help with the rumination, death of hope, things that help stop the obsessive thoughts. Then you can interact with them as friends. 🙂
I see MJ here spending Adam’s money! 😉
To Serial:
It is odd that I continue to be so obsessed with LO when I know he’s gay. It’s not as if he’s encouraging me, or misleading me in any way.
I am at a loss to explain this.
Yes, I noticed MJ is very free with Adam’s money! What’s up with that?
Dear Norma,
Happy belated Birthday!
So glad to hear you had such a good time; hope the rest of the year continues to trend your way.
You’re such a lovely lady!
To CatCyclist:
Thank you for your kind words.
I was very touched at the number of people who stepped up to offer good wishes yesterday.
I felt buoyed by all the support.
“Nothing Bundt Cakes”
I love it. A dad joke turned into a business name. I don’t eat sweets or cake much but when I do I like red velvet cake. There’s a specific kind of Bundt cake I like but I can’t remember what it is called. It is pretty mild with iced frosting. Maybe poppyseed?
There’s a nice upper end Italian restaurant close to where we live we can go to, since my Brother seems to know me all too well. The dish names aren’t even English. The descriptions are though. So when our waiter took our order (my wife and I went for our 20 year anniversary) I had to point out what I wanted based on said description. It was a spicy (and it was) pasta with clams, shrimp and lobster. It was very good. I had a few Samuel Smith’s Oatmeal Stout beers with it. Momma drove us back home. Very nice place to eat. And I am more of a fan of “fast food” or American-Italian than I am authentic Italian food. But it was good.
Personally I have never gotten the “cheese and wine” combo. I like them both. All kinds of cheese, especially blue cheese, and mostly cheap red wine. But I have never thought to combined the two. Cheese is a topping for food and wine is to drink …. because that’s what alcohol is for.
To Adam:
Thank you for that mouth-watering description. You guys sound like a lovely couple.
I did eat my bundt cake last night and it was amazing.
Tonight I will tackle LO’s offering from Crumbl.
Hello Mila and Bewitched. Very interesting to hear about both your LE experiences, great job with the progress.
For me, since the past interaction really knocked me over into sadness for some time, the craving to see LO has gone down, as I get reminded about the last time. Plus, for some reason, past couple of interactions did not lead to the highs that I felt before.
I think I would be okay not seeing LO ever again, as the cravings have significantly reduced, not zero though! However, this is not happening anytime soon, so that’s that. For now, I am just building resilience from the current NC time period. Cheers.
Hi ABCD,
just saw your post. It’s a long way but you seem to trudge along with determination and patience, you will make it to freedom, I‘m sure, maybe you already have.
Even though I don’t have any limerent cravings anymore and think about XLO seldom (sometimes I think visiting this is one of the main reasons I do- maybe should stop?), there’s still no absolute peace in that friendship.
But I feel that my last worries about friendship with my XLO bring further progress, even though they are slight and also feel like unnecessary stuff. When I bother to compare my inner relationship to XLO from month to month, there are always tiny changes for the better (meaning getting more balanced and everything getting even less important, resentment fading, expectations vanishing).
I hope you also notice these small shifts.
*“visiting this site“-
as much as it helped me, thank you again Dr L/Tom🙏🏻
Thanks Mila. I am checking the site after a week.
Though I am still a distance from “getting out” of my LE, I can notice the day to day improvements. Among these, the one I am noticing recently is that my resolve to put this behind me is getting stronger by the day, so this is a good sign.
Besides this, the crappy feelings come and go, I just try to observe them without getting too perturbed. It has helped me to not deny the feelings, but to acknowledge them.
Dealing with this long LE has been one of the hardest things I have had to do, but I take it as a challenge and keep on pushing. It is comforting to know that I am not alone in this, and that we are all trying to navigate our LEs together.
Have a great weekend, all! Cheers!
Hi ABCD,
good to hear that you are doing ok. Yes, patience is the ticket, as frederico mentioned. I wish you a nice weekend and all the best!
I have to leave a review for the item that LO got me from Crumbl.
It’s called Dubai Chocolate Cheesecake, and it’s one of the best desserts I have ever tasted.
Sorry to say it put the bundt cake to shame. Good thing I ate that one first.
I ended up having a wonderful birthday.
Since my three adult daughters don’t speak to me, I dread holidays.
But this one was much nicer than I could have imagined.
Momma says my favorite dessert is lemon Bundt cake. I like cheesecake but it’s usually the store boxed stuff from the supermarket. This year for our anniversary we got a cheese cake that was OMG sweet and rich. I had one bite and I let Momma eat it. Sugar is not my dig. I’d rather have fries smothered in chili, cheese, jalapeño, onions and mustard than desserts. But how is my
sweet Miss Norma gonna be sweet without eating sweets. 🙂
To Adam:
I am glad you understand that.
Chocolate and cheesecake are two of my favorite things, so LO gets points for stepping up with that dessert.
I don’t know if he remembered that I like those things, or if it was just dumb luck. Either way, it was a delightful surprise.
LO liked White Chocolate Expresso and I bought it for her from her favorite local coffee shop numerous times. Me, before my heart condition, I just like black coffee. Now I can’t drink it. But to see her face when I’d bring it to her ….
It’s nice when someone lights up like a Christmas tree, isn’t it?
I think one of my problems is that LO is on the Grinchy side.
Somehow I have taken it on as a challenge to try to make him smile.
It’s tough going. I told him, “Too bad you had your sense of humor surgically removed.”
This is an uphill battle with him, and I don’t make too much of an attempt. First of all, it isn’t my job, and second of all, successes are so rare that it’s discouraging.
I can’t afford to get hung up on that.
Dear Norma
I can relate to a degree. But for me LO’s absence of laughter was for a different reason. After her ex broke their marriage and family (one daughter living with him and one with LO) being the cheating pos he is, LO didn’t laugh or smile much. So it was such a reward to get her and her daughter to laugh or smile. Even the time they played a funny prank on me and I was laughing with them. I made it my mission to try and get her to smile at least once a day. Even if it was bribing her with sweets like I do with you.
To Adam:
Your relationship sounds more rewarding.
Mr. Grinch is a tough cookie.
Adam I have read a lot posts here. Does your wife still read the posts here? If so how does she react to you reminiscing about buying your LO her favorite coffee and watching her face light up. Not trying to be harsh but doesn’t that still feed the LE? You seem like a very kind and caring person and often talk about being guilty over your LE damage you did to your marriage. Then I see posts like this and it makes me confused. It just doesn’t seem wise to bring things like this up if you want to keep rebuilding things with your wife especially if she reads it sometimes. Wishing you the best.
As a limerent, sometimes the desire to ruminate can become like when an alcoholic desires another sip. Yet wants to deny that sip because he knows its bad for him and knows it will ultimately ruin him. Yet he’ll do it anyway and accepting the consequences. Like many of us here, Brother Adam is a work in progress and I am confident he is aware of the risk.
So what you’re saying is that we need to add CL cuckquean limmerence to the glossary of terms on this site?
Absolutely not! It is nothing like that and I was in no way suggesting that. I was concerned and don’t want him to have more things to feel guilty about. Sometimes this forum goes beyond support and understanding to enabling limerence.
Keep in mind, the name of this website is called “Living with Limerence”.
The Good Doctors intent is probably not the many comments that are posted, seeming to enable the problem further.
However, I do believe it is also understood in many instances, limerence isn’t just turned off like a light switch either. We’re coming here with other like-minded individuals, dealing with our fascinations around certain people.
I think as humans this is something hardwired into our psyche. Some are having a rough time. Some are way past the LE and come here just to relate and perhaps help. Others like myself are just going through the motions of dealing with things after the worst of LE has passed. I am grateful to the good Doctor and to the many others here who have helped (and been critical) of my limerent behaviors. Without this place, I don’t believe I would have made the progress I have.
Looking at your screen name it appears you are having some issues trying to free yourself of something. Whatever that is, know you can bring that struggle to the table here. Without judgement.
I don’t know if she does still. She can very well be lurking right now and me not know as she never mentions anything I post verbally to me. I have tapered off, and for the most part stopped posting in Dr L’s new posts, and staying to the “coffeehouse” posts, to mostly just socialize as I have made friends here I don’t want to leave. But you are most astute in your observation.
But no worries, as my wife has no issue calling me out on my bs. I handed her my phone yesterday morning to charge it for me, and she was looking through my youtube mix, since I left the application opened when I handed it to her, and she said “awful lot of break up songs on this mix”. I know how algorithms work and I know what she was saying. She left it at that.
Very astute comparison as well Brother. Since I know exactly what that is like. And yet she puts up with that about me too. Truly an undeserving man, I am.
Brother,
A good Woman that forgives you is a boon twice over. Often when people ask me how I’m doing, I reply to them by saying, “Better than I deserve”.
This of course usually throws them off and they want to be polite and sometimes inquire a little more. For me it’s just a fact.
I’ve hardly been a Saint and whatever good comes my way these days, I truly do not deserve it..
Brother
She has indeed been very gracious with me over these last 5 years, and the almost 3 I’ve been here. I honestly did a double take at Trying to be free’s post as I never really thought people remembered my whole or most of my story, much less that my wife posted her before. And initially I felt a little bit reactive to the post. But I simmered on it and realized they are absolutely right. It would be like me asking my wife to go to the liquor store for me when she is now going on 7 years sober. I don’t want to disappear from here, as some posters have, but I also try to spend less time here, as this place can be as addictive as limerence itself, for someone that it is in my situation. And in own case.
Brother,
I feel often like people are ultimately going to do what they want to do. We can talk about what has worked for us coming out of LE but no two situations are alike. I can’t fully understand anyone else’s true personal issues at hand. Nor can I live them. Or live thru them. What has worked for me, may not work for anybody.
Fate worked itself for you by defaulting to complete NC when your LO left. My situation was somewhat the same but not exactly. She just switched her work location, but it still devastated me. Default NC then with only a trace of LC after the fact. In either case, we lost something we felt very close to.
Tbh, I’ve thought about those same questions that Tryingtobefree asked you, when you were in a relapse frame of mind. I just figured you had your own methods you had to work thru. If anything I ever said helped, well then I’m glad I could do something menial. I can tell you are trying to post less but I’m glad you’ve stuck around and at least try to get others feedback here and help yourself.
Maybe it isn’t perfect advice here and this forum probably isn’t the best solution but its been helpful to me. Helpful to know I’m not alone in the madness.
At least you get to lay down with a good Woman every night. Who has seemingly forgiven you for your foibles. That my friend, is worth its weight in gold.
Your intention struck me as unintentionally humorous for many reasons but partly because you singled out poor Brother Adam in his conversation. I see now that you are serious and I won’t joke further but respond in kind. To start with, I agree with MJ that limerents who have been dealing with their LEs for a while have had time to self-reflect about their actions from every angle. Much like in life and politics, we do know the answer. The question is do we have the will? In a moderated forum, the moderator or therapist would bring back a conversation to how a given behavior was destructive to the person and others in their life and how they could have acted differently, etc. Not the case here as it is unmoderated. I like that personally. The forum comments have lots of what may feel like romantizing of LE. Some of it is exactly what it seems like. This isn’t an efficient forum therefore either which also frustrates some. Also DrL never romanticizes limmerence so there is this strange disconnect between the posts and the comments. A strange disconnect between talking about very serious issues while in many ways, not taking the situations so serious. I personally enjoy that about the forum.
Hamlet,
“To start with, I agree with MJ that limerents who have been dealing with their LEs for a while have had time to self-reflect about their actions from every angle. ”
There are a lot of posts on here about how great the LO is, how perfect, how strong the feelings. Which totally miss the boat.
Limerence — when it becomes obsessive because the feeling aren’t returned or things can’t go anywhere — is about the limerent. Not the LO. The question should be — why am I so fixated on someone who has/had such a small part in my life? Which, yes, I have asked myself that. What about this person triggered me? Because it’s not about him. It’s about me.
“What about this person triggered me? Because it’s not about him. It’s about me.”
Marcia
I agree its about me, but I think thats why the comments about LO perfectionism come out the way they do. We seemingly know it (LE) doesn’t make sense but we keep going there because we want to get to the bottom of it.
All while knowing we probably never will know. (Especially in a situation like mine.) Our brains want to make us happy and that is what the LE/LO does.
MJ,
“I agree its about me, but I think that’s why the comments about LO perfectionism come out the way they do.”
That’s not how it comes across. It comes across like you’re defining your LE as a big love situation.
For a long time, while in my last big LE, I thought the Universe was f**king with me. Dangling the perfect person who I could never have. But that’s not what it was at all. If that’s love, I’ll just go ahead and throw myself in front of a bus. Doesn’t the person have to love you back and be in your life in an impactful role?
“That’s not how it comes across. It comes across like you’re defining your LE as a big love situation.”
Marcia,
That’s probably because that is how it felt. Like if I give weight to my thoughts and put myself back in the moment, her leaving felt almost literally like a real break-up.
“For a long time, while in my last big LE, I thought the Universe was f**king with me. Dangling the perfect person who I could never have. But that’s not what it was at all.”
My fantasies of LO and I became so ingrained, so possible and so real, that I think that is why the devastation factor was so profound and so unlike any other hurt or heartbreak I’ve ever felt in my entire life. Losing my own Mother didn’t hurt like this. Like that is really how serious and how deep my emotions over LO became. Like she really was (and still is) the most perfect person in the Universe to me.
I know I am basing that all on her physical appearance. I also know deep down, that isn’t actually true. Like its pretty obvious in all her TikToks, she is obsessed with herself. Constantly taking videos of herself in the mirror, in all her cute outfits. If their not about that, then she’s making foodie videos about all the exotic dishes she’s discovering around the city. Like why is that worthy of posting?
As far as I know she has a Man in her life. I mean other than the need for more validation, who gives a $#!+?? I’d tell her all day long she’s absolutely perfect and doesn’t need to improve on anything, but it probably wouldn’t be good enough. Truthfully, her videos aren’t terrible. They all display a side of her that I find super cute but altogether pointless at the same time. Then again I’m not a super attractive 30 year old female either so why would I get it?
“If that’s love, I’ll just go ahead and throw myself in front of a bus.”
It’s not love. Truthfully I know this but in the altered state of mind, I didn’t think like this. I wanted to throw myself in front of a bus because I didn’t want to go on. I missed her that much. Needed to see her really really bad and I was a mess I couldn’t.
I think this is why I swore I was never limerent for LF because I never felt as sad or needy for her. Couple also the fact I knew her, which kept any fantasizing in the corner. I knew what I was working with. I think limerent tendencies were present but anything I wanted that never happened, never devastated me the same way.
“Doesn’t the person have to love you back and be in your life in an impactful role?”
They do but limerents love uncertainty and feast on breadcrumbs. At least this is how I was. Which is why I often say I wouldn’t wish the experience on anybody.
“When you write about your LO’s perfection, it sounds like a teenage boy writing about his celebrity crush.”
Marcia
Oh so like my crush on Sabrina.. 😆
Isn’t this just limerent nature? We all see something special in LOs. I feel like you’re just giving me $#!+ because you can. It’s really ok. You tell it like you see it and you’re probably not too far off base. You are correct that at the time of height of LE, I had the suspicion of her rejecting me and if she had, I would have to give up the idea. I didn’t want that and kind of don’t want it now. Yet I also know its pointless. Its hard for me to relate to others sometimes and in my limerent head, I can enjoy any old or new thought of LO, that takes me out of reality.
Had it not been the forum and being beat over the head with comments about everything I was doing wrong, I could totally see me, having done something to make matters worse. So thank you for reminding me to never be a kiss–ass.
“You saw a side of her that was not great. Remember that … because that’s who she is.”
Its a bitter pill to swallow. Only because I still have to work with her. Which has been downright awkward lately. I had to be in close proximity to her for 2 nights last week and I really didn’t like it. Kept thinking about why I should have kept things lower key and never told her anything private. I guess I just wanted to up things emotionally, thinking she was mature enough to handle it. Especially since she told me she wouldn’t judge. We had made significant progress becoming friends again. Even after disclosure. Of course I would flush it all down the f%@!en toilet. I’ll f— up a wet dream if given the opportunity..
“Does your father live with you or is he still in his home? Is that doable for the long-term?”
By taking care of two households, I meant that he still lives in his house and I in mine. That’s for my own psyche because I would probably lose it if we lived together. We’re just at different crossroads now and its been the nature of our relationship over time. It isn’t horrible. I love the man to death, but going back to live with him full time, would take on a new meaning. I understand these are end of life issues but as you said, carving out some time for myself is imperative. I get slivers now and then, but my weekends consist of not much more.
“I do not feel bad about that. Life is not easy as a middle-aged woman. Do I need to point out all the posts exalting the beauty of younger women on here? If I have a SLIVER of advantage in the sexual marketplace, I’m taking it.”
I suppose I can see why you would. It makes sense. I guess I feel thats somewhat an advantage I have over younger Women because I feel like most aren’t really opposed as long as the age gap isn’t insanely different. Especially if the Men are established. I don’t know if I am, but I try to be grounded at least. I feel like I have a good heart. I feel like being older gives me an advantage but isn’t mandatory or even expected they reciprocate. I’m really only trying to relate to someone with the best of intentions, despite having a horrible track record.
Marcia, I remember you mentioning this before. You came to this awareness in one feel swoop? In my case, it was a two step process. First I saw that the LO was an invention of my limerent mind: I was the LO and the LO was me. There was no use analyzing memories of an LE or LO that are skewed by my limerent brain. Can’t data mine corrupt data. There is nothing to get to the bottom of through repetively replaying false or incomplete memories. Garbage in, garbage out. When even knowing that didn’t stop my mind from going back to thinking about the LO, I had to dig deeper. That’s when I realized that the LE was all about me and I had to figure out what in my life and marriage was missing that caused me to fill the void with an LE/LO. I continued to place the focus on me, what can I do to xxx, rather than what she needs to do. Since I took the LO out of the equation, it was still difficult but rather straightforward to then end the LE. Not sure if that is at all similar to your LE story. I’ll apologize for my crudeness. I feel like in saying that your self-awareness is rare and wonderful and you should be proud of it, I’m sort of circle jerking back around to me. But your self awareness is.
Hamlet,
“I remember you mentioning this before. You came to this awareness in one feel swoop? ”
Oh, no. It was a slow, long slog. 🙂
“First I saw that the LO was an invention of my limerent mind: I was the LO and the LO was me. ”
Speak more about this. I’m assuming I know what you mean, but I’m not 100% sure.
“When even knowing that didn’t stop my mind from going back to thinking about the LO, I had to dig deeper. That’s when I realized that the LE was all about me and I had to figure out what in my life and marriage was missing that caused me to fill the void with an LE/LO. I continued to place the focus on me, what can I do to xxx, rather than what she needs to do. ”
And were you able to do that? What void was the limerence filling? I have found that purposeful living can distract from the limerent feelings but it doesn’t get rid of them.
“I feel like in saying that your self-awareness is rare and wonderful and you should be proud of it, I’m sort of circle jerking back around to me. But your self awareness is.”
Thank you for the compliment. I don’t mind you bringing it back to yourself. I bring it back to myself in some responses to give examples of what I’ve done and tried and if it worked or not. The alternative is to write, “This is what you’re need to be doing! It’s so obvious!” Which is obnoxious. 🙂
“First I saw that the LO was an invention of my limerent mind: I was the LO and the LO was me. ”
It’s very similar to a little sliver of philosophy hidden in the book/movie Cloud Atlas, the past isn’t real. There is the actual historical past event but as soon as it happens the actual becomes murkier and murkier and people start filling in the void with their own opinions, desires, etc. until over time we have invented a past. We reinvent the past to be who we wanted to be to create the future we want. Back to the LO, much the same, there was in fact a real young woman who became the LO. She was and to my knowledge, is still alive and real. But instead of truly engaging with the real young woman, I as a young man filled in the gaps that existed from me not knowing her well enough or just not wanting to accept who she really was or might actually be with what I thought she must be like, who I wanted her to be like. Similar to what DrL says about limerents only seeing the most positive aspects of the LO, but it was a little more involved than that for me. I wanted the love, fantasized future life with the young woman that I transformed her into my fantasy, the LO. That and real life, real women, and real relationships are messy, uncertain, complicated, without guarantees, and at that age I didn’t see the inherent beauty in that.
“And were you able to do that? What void was the limerence filling?”
Yes, I was able to do that by embracing the real, by being present in the real world. The limerence filled the void of any stressors in my real marriage. Maybe rather than filling the void, it’s more accurate to say it assuaged the stress much like a chocolate bar might assuage hunger. The LE was this fantasy that I could think about with the other woman, LO, with whom everything would have been better.
“I have found that purposeful living can distract from the limerent feelings but it doesn’t get rid of them.”
Can you define what you do towards purposeful living? I have life goals, personal goals, family goals, marital goals, etc. that I work on daily in some cases. Two years ago I left my steady job to work in fulfillment of my life goals. That all has helped certainly but truly committing to living in the here and now, be fully present with my myself and my wife, warts and all, is what has overcome the LE recurrence. I used to be involved in lots of volunteering, lots of community events (opera, plays, ballet, lectures, gardening, protests, really anything and everything) but that was honestly more of a substitution, another form of avoidance. Now I’m trying to incorporate some of the volunteering and community stuff I did back into my life in a more manageable way.
Hamlet,
“It’s very similar to a little sliver of philosophy hidden in the book/movie Cloud Atlas, the past isn’t real. ”
That’s interesting. I have a meditation I listen to and it says that the past is a figment of our imagination.
“Yes, I was able to do that by embracing the real, by being present in the real world. The limerence filled the void of any stressors in my real marriage. Maybe rather than filling the void, it’s more accurate to say it assuaged the stress much like a chocolate bar might assuage hunger. The LE was this fantasy that I could think about with the other woman, LO, with whom everything would have been better.”
Ok. Gotcha. But didn’t you find that being with your SO, someone who loved you and supported you, was more fulfilling than a fantasy? You weren’t in contact with your LO, right? Weren’t seeing her?
I don’t know if you know anything about Ester Perel’s work. She’s a psychologist who’s treated a lot of couples in the aftermath of an affair and she’s written about it. Bear with me. She said that people don’t usually have affairs to get away from the person they’re with. They have them to get away from the person they’ve become. And the affair lets them be a version of themselves they haven’t seen in a while or maybe have never experienced. I think there’s some overlap with limerence, even if there is no affair.
“Can you define what you do towards purposeful living?”
Very slowly — as time permits while I work — changing careers.
“Two years ago I left my steady job to work in fulfillment of my life goals.”
I’m doing a version of that.
“I used to be involved in lots of volunteering, lots of community events (opera, plays, ballet, lectures, gardening, protests, really anything and everything) but that was honestly more of a substitution, another form of avoidance. ”
I thought about doing the volunteer thing. I do worry that purposeful living, while good, is a form of avoidance, as you wrote. That self-improvement is a form of avoidance.
Marcia,
“I worry … that self-improvement is a form of avoidance.”
Hmm, can you say a bit more? Here’s why I’m struggling with that. If we assume that limerence (or whatever other problematic behaviour someone has) is down to something lacking or askew within the self (which I do believe and which I think is Hamlet’s point), then if we’re working on improving the self, what are we avoiding? Surely by prioritising the self we’re confronting the issue? I may have misunderstood you.
LaR,
” If we assume that limerence (or whatever other problematic behaviour someone has) is down to something lacking or askew within the self (which I do believe and which I think is Hamlet’s point), then if we’re working on improving the self, what are we avoiding?”
I think it depends on what void the limerence is filling. Are there voids that a new job or volunteering or starting a workout plan aren’t going to fill? Most definitely.
“That self-improvement is a form of avoidance” Yes it can be. I think it is less likely to be though if you couple it with another more broader goal. One piece of advice I gave my sons in their dating was not to focus so much on worrying about getting the girl. Rather spend that energy making yourself the person that the girl you want would want to be with. A variant is to ask yourself, why would my ideal soulmate want to be with me? Hopefully, the person has a good answer. If not, they should probably work on themselves and more often than not, that’s the case.
“But didn’t you find that being with your SO, someone who loved you and supported you, was more fulfilling than a fantasy?”
Loved me and supported me? 😆😆😆 Oh God! You’re confusing my wife with someone else. To answer your question, my wife wasn’t loving and supportive so I did find fantasy more fulfilling. 😂 We also have to consider that this deals with the past and what I thought of as love then came from who knows where and is not the same as now and I’m not the same person as I was then (young idiot male) although not so different as to not have a memory of my past self. Same goes for my wife. To give you some context. I married my girlfriend who was pregnant. I distinctly remember saying to myself before I proposed that I can love her and we can be happy. I really believed that. Although I don’t know if that was a statement or a hope. I don’t want to imply it wasn’t my choice to get married but at the same time, without the pregnancy, we wouldn’t have gotten married. She and I knew our relationship had, without the pregnancy, two more months as I was leaving town and she wasn’t asked to come. My wife was raised in a single family home by a mother with anger issues who was also raising another child with severe disabilities (she would die a teenager). Young children of divorce are prone to have abandonment issues and anxiety. Yep that’s my SO. My SO also developed narcissistic tendencies which how can you not if you’re living in fear and you’re the only one you feel is looking out for number one. I can attest that the anger also passed on from mother to child. I grew up in an alcoholic home. Violence and police were not unknown. My parents separated twice, got remarried twice. Truly dysfunctional relationship. Epitomized the phrase, “can’t live with ’em, can’t live without ’em.” Neither of us knew what a normal loving relationship was. Neither of us knew how to communicate our wants and desires. Supportive? It takes a well adjusted, confident, caring person to be supportive of others. Anxious, narcissistic people aren’t supportive. Yeah, it has seemed common for people who are married on this blog to say how wonderful their SO is. I hope that they really are.
“Ester Perel’s work… She said that people don’t usually have affairs to get away from the person they’re with. They have them to get away from the person they’ve become. And the affair lets them be a version of themselves they haven’t seen in a while or maybe have never experienced. I think there’s some overlap with limerence, even if there is no affair.”
I know of her through interviews on podcasts I’ve listened to without knowing her name. I found her to be very wise. Your point and hers is still totally valid of course but at least in the YouTube clip I watched she says it’s either there is something missing in the relationship or something missing in you. She goes on to only talk about the later you case. I’d say it can be BOTH rather than OR. I also think “you” in a relationship are the relationship. Similar in the way a person has many roles, never truly just one while never not one either. A mother is never just a woman but at the same time is never not a woman. I’m an atheist but I like the way the old testament puts it, two become one.
Hamlet,
“One piece of advice I gave my sons in their dating was not to focus so much on worrying about getting the girl. Rather spend that energy making yourself the person that the girl you want would want to be with.”
I like that. I believe something along those same lines. If you want someone who is fit (this is an example), you need to be fit. In other words, what are you bringing to the table, what do you have to offer, the other person?
“To answer your question, my wife wasn’t loving and supportive so I did find fantasy more fulfilling. 😂”
Ah, ok. I can see from your story why you were limerent. Have you and your wife grown into being more supportive of each other?
“My SO also developed narcissistic tendencies which how can you not if you’re living in fear and you’re the only one you feel is looking out for number one. ”
I can understand that. Like you and your wife, I grew up in a screwy environment, and it does make you selfish. Because you learn that all you have is you. And if you’re not getting that much from your caregivers, you don’t learn how to give it.
“at least in the YouTube clip I watched she says it’s either there is something missing in the relationship or something missing in you. ”
I know that’s the traditional way of thinking. But I’m going to posit another theory … what if it’s just human nature? I don’t so much mean limerence because I think it’s a maladaptive coping mechanism … but strong attractions/crushes/infatuations … maybe they’re inevitable in a long relationship. Maybe it’s just a matter of time before one or both parties become besotted with someone else.
“Ah, ok. I can see from your story why you were limerent.”
To be clearer about the situation, I was describing the earlier stage of my marriage and it wasn’t so obvious at the time as it is to me now. We didn’t know what we didn’t know. I did mention having to dig into things and that was a much later stage when we were empty nesters and we had recommitted to the marriage fully aware now of the warts and all. Having recommitted to the SO and yet still being limerent, yeah that took some more digging into myself. My SO does love me and can be supportive but her nature is not what I would describe as loving or supportive.
“Have you and your wife grown into being more supportive of each other?”
Yes, but we have to work at it. Here’s an example I think you’ll like. My wife likes fancy hotels. We’re staying for one night this weekend in a local fancy hotel. That is to satisfy her #1 love language of spending time together plus she likes fancy hotels. She asked why I had developed this new like for fancy hotels? I was like, I didn’t. It’s because you like fancy hotels (you dope!) Too funny.
“But I’m going to posit another theory … what if it’s just human nature? I don’t so much mean limerence because I think it’s a maladaptive coping mechanism… strong attractions/crushes/infatuations … maybe they’re inevitable in a long relationship. Maybe it’s just a matter of time before one or both parties become besotted with someone else.”
I can’t agree enough that I too think that all limmerence is a maladaptive coping mechanism.
As to the inevitability of crushes, etc…. You’ll have to bare with me but you are touching on a larger philosophical debate that our society is having now. It’s not new although to our society it seems to be. I don’t even think most people recognize it. On the one side you have the theory that humans shouldn’t deny themselves, to deny is weakness and the point of life is to impose your will on the weaker others before they have a chance to impose their will on you. Whatever you feel about people like the President of the US and the Elon Musk types, they are imposing their will on us. In the context of this theory which is without the traditional moral or ethical constraints, these are considered Great Men. Great men like how Time Magazine chooses their person of the year, the most influential, not who has done the most good. On the other side you have those that deny themselves within the context of some ethical or moral framework.
Maybe the drift towards another person is natural, maybe inevitable. I don’t disagree. So what? That doesn’t mean that I must or am fated to give into that. I’m self aware now so I have a responsibility to not let myself go towards limmerence having an SO. I deny myself all the time every day and don’t suffer for it. Now that I am aware of limerence and I’m self aware of my tendency towards it, I have to be cautious of any interaction with a female. No LFs! I do have female friends. I just keep it all business (friendship) with them.
Hamlet,
“Yes, but we have to work at it.”
When I bring stuff up, there are usually just talking points. Not necessarily aimed at your specific situation. But … how much work is too much? At what point do you say, “We can’t meet each others’ needs. We need to move on.” ?
“Maybe the drift towards another person is natural, maybe inevitable.”
I guess I meant that the minute a partnered person admits to feelings for someone else, the knee-jerk reaction is to ask, “What’s missing in your relationship? What’s missing with you?” I’m saying — maybe it’s just life. There’s a great line in the movie “Take This Waltz.” The Michelle Williams character has left her husband — he’s a good person but kind of juvenile and the relationship has calcified — for her sexy neighbor. Her husband’s sister is mad at her for leaving. She says, “Life has a gap in it. It just does. You don’t go crazy trying to fill it like some lunatic.”
And, not ironically, the sister-in-law is an alcoholic! Talk about filling the gap! So maybe we have to recognize … you CAN’T fill the gap.
Does limerence infect its way into the gap?
“I’m self aware now so I have a responsibility to not let myself go towards limerence having an SO.”
That’s good. I do think we can tell when we’re starting to get weird about someone. You can feel it. And that’s the moment to back away. It’s a choice.
“I deny myself all the time every day and don’t suffer for it.”
I do miss some of the limerent feelings. Not so much the limerence aftermath.
“I do have female friends. I just keep it all business (friendship) with them.”
Good man. 🙂
Dame Marcia’s recalling that movie quote got me thinking ….
When I approached my wife (both times) about a legal separation, in limerence (after LO left) still, it really wasn’t about chasing after LO. It was; are we good for each other anymore? She fills the gaps with consuming, both physical food and online content. I, I guess, with limerence and alcohol. Is this a sign, that while we may neither chase anyone else, if we end it, would we each individually be better off and healthier than we are together? As LE would advice me early on, there’s no point in therapy if you aren’t going to step out of your own pathologies.
I can get the character’s point that life has it’s surprises (or gaps) and I get the husband’s sister-in-law’s point despite her being guilty of what she condemned the other woman for.
I wanted the best life for my wife post-limerence. If that was alone (well with our youngest cause he’d follow her anywhere) or under the provision of another man, that’s all I wanted. The same as why I just watched LO walk away without anything more than a goodbye and maintain NC; I just want her to be happy in life.
I think that the, and I am not to entirely blame said party, Christian religion, even for people that aren’t, has given Western society this entirely be all romanticized look at marriage. And modern society, Hollywood (at least back in the day) totes this view of marriage always being this always oh so pleasant, always rewarding experience, so why would you want to end it?
While Gen X maybe the last generation to have this mindset, it still comes down to cheating or ending a relationship if a third party starts becoming a threat. I’d think I’d much prefer the honesty of the later and have no beef with the character Dame Marcia mentioned. At least she was honest about her feelings. Because resentment can be a relationship killer when you let it build.
“I do miss some of the limerent feelings.” I see that. Maybe because you’re single? Me, no. Not at all. I associate limmerence with mental illness. You much more accurately called it a maladaptive coping mechanism. It’s not mental illness. I just knew it was my brain not acting right. Plus, its in the past and I like who I am now much more than that earlier guy.
My wife and I watched the movie Take this Waltz last night. She and I agreed about it overall.
SO said it was depressing to watch as Margot was so depressed. She also highlighted that the neighbor gives this long sexualized talk and then their actual sex scenes were…boring. I told her she’s too spoiled being with me. She has no idea how good she has it. 😆
“Life has a gap in it. It just does. You don’t go crazy trying to fill it like some lunatic.”
That is a great quote and inciteful and totally can stand on its own, but in the context of the world created by the movie, it totally misses the boat. What that married couple had was it’s own special circle in Hell. Whatever that was that we saw in their house was no gap in life. Margot didn’t go crazy, she always was. Really she has mental illness. I think the film wants us to see her though as a complicated beautiful young woman with some issues. Her husband was emotionally and physically just absolutely terrible. His perfect soulmate is an asexual robot who he can program to give the once a week handjob. The sexy neighbor, I view trying to have sex with someone who is clearly mentally ill no different than trying to have sex with a drunk. Not technically illegal perhaps but so exploitive nonetheless.
Not sure we have the same view as what is natural, what is life, limmerence even perhaps but for another day.
Hamlet,
“I do miss some of the limerent feelings.” I see that. Maybe because you’re single? ”
Yes, but there are plenty of people on here who aren’t single and still limerent.
“You much more accurately called it a maladaptive coping mechanism. ”
I definitely think it is. I don’t think it’s healthy to get so fixated on someone who doesn’t usually play a big role in the one’s life. Or not the role the limerent wants them to play. However … in my last blip with the crazy of limerence … as Dr. L. talks about … there were moments (certainly not all of it by any means) that were … ecstatic. The ecstatic union he talks about. On my side. I haven’t been that alive in years. Of course, all it comes with the aftermath. Which, of course, lasts a hell of a lot longer.
“She also highlighted that the neighbor gives this long sexualized talk and then their actual sex scenes were…boring. ”
Boring? I don’t agree at all. I think the neighbor delivered. 🙂 They had a lot of chemistry. It totally made sense to me that she’d be into him.
“Whatever that was that we saw in their house was no gap in life. Margot didn’t go crazy, she always was. Really she has mental illness. I think the film wants us to see her though as a complicated beautiful young woman with some issues. Her husband was emotionally and physically just absolutely terrible. His perfect soulmate is an asexual robot who he can program to give the once a week handjob. ”
Wow. We saw two different films. 🙂 I didn’t see her as depressed. Granted, it’s been a while since I’ve seen it. She may have been confused about what she wanted in life. She might have been trying to find herself. And I saw the husband as essentially sweet but emotionally and sexually stunted. Their sex life is very lacking (completely unerotic, almost perfunctory) and he’s emotionally a child (throwing water on her in the shower, for example). But he’s a not a bad guy. If I remember correctly, after she leaves him, she tries to go back. Or at least hints at reconciling. And that’s not uncommon. Because there’s still love there. A friend of mine left her husband for her another man, and she missed her husband.
I looked up Take This Waltz….Looks like something to watch this weekend. 🙂 Sarah Polley directed it? As in—the little girl from Avonlea??
“Yes, but there are plenty of people on here who aren’t single and still limerent.”
Yep, you’re right.
“I don’t think it’s healthy to get so fixated on someone who doesn’t usually play a big role in the one’s life.”
My thing is that I don’t think it’s healthy to get fixated on anyone. I knew I really really loved my wife when I was willing to die for her. But even still I’m not fixated on her. I know she’s certainly not fixated on me. At most, we’re both a tad bit jealous. But it’s the normal kind. I’ve said this before, I would never advise my son to go limerent. Ever over anyone. You can fall in love without going limerent.
“It totally made sense to me that she’d be into him.”
Made sense to me too but doesn’t mean their sex wasn’t boring. Takes two to tango. How can she possibly be expected to bring it? If I was him I’d have made her say what she’d do to me afterward his sex monologue. But, he did nothing he said he would do to her. Maybe the censors stopped that. They didn’t seem to be bringing in others to expand their horizons, seemed that the excitement of the two of them alone wasn’t enough, but no way to know. I can only see what the filmmakers show me.
“Wow. We saw two different films.”
That’s one of the joys of rereading the same book or watching the same movie as you age. Almost always I see it in a whole new way. So our differences in what we saw are to be expected and if you somehow asked me this question in 5 years I won’t guarantee I’ll have the same opinions.
I think you saw her just as the creators wanted you too and that’s totally fine and OK. As I watched it I kept wondering how I’d view it if I was a 20 something. Can’t know but maybe I’d be attracted to her quirkiness, her need iness, her vulnerability. I’d probably have focused on her beauty … Now I wouldn’t touch her with a ten foot pole.
“he’s emotionally a child (throwing water on her in the shower, for example).”
And she has the cognitive abilities of a child. She can’t tell when a large measuring cup full of water is repeatedly being poured on her head. 😂. You’ve never had anyone do that to you? I have and never said, something is wrong with the shower. Sorry low lying fruit indeed.
They both, not just him, have the emotions of children. They talk to each other in the extremes of either baby talk or some weird word game of who can imagine torturing the other in the most vile way with common household objects. Fun! There must be some past trauma for her because when he kisses her during the baby talk, she freaks a little and tells him not to mix kissing and baby talk. Her last communication style is to blow on you with the expectation that you blow back. I thought it was him who had these weird love talk styles but she does the blowing thing with a real stranger in the Uber ride home and the baby talk with Daniel but he ain’t having it.
“after she leaves him, she tries to go back. ”
That’s because she wants to go back to a man she can pee in front of and not have them leave the bathroom. Again, Daniel wasn’t having that when she tried that on him.
Hamlet,
“You can fall in love without going limerent.”
But why would you want to? 🙂 The limerence on this site is the dark side of limerence. When it gets stuck because the relationship can’t be fully consummated. The other person isn’t available and/or interested enough. And that’s unhealthy. To spend YEARS fixated on a person who isn’t all that invested in you. But if both people feel the same way, the early “in love” phase or “in limerence” phase (I look at them as one and the same), is great. Provided the relationship can move into the more companionate phase after the “in love” phase fades.
“If I was him I’d have made her say what she’d do to me afterward his sex monologue.”
I saw the movie when it came out so I don’t remember all the specifics. I am not big on talking about sex in detail because it takes every bit of the surprise and mystery and spontaneity out of it when you actually get down to it.
“They didn’t seem to be bringing in others to expand their horizons, seemed that the excitement of the two of them alone wasn’t enough”
I do remember that part of it and it turned me off, to be honest. If they’re so newly together, why do they need to bring in others? Maybe that was the filmmaker trying to be edgy.
“So our differences in what we saw are to be expected and if you somehow asked me this question in 5 years I won’t guarantee I’ll have the same opinions.”
My opinion of the basic story has changed. When I saw the movie years ago, I thought it was hot and romantic that she left. And risky. It’s the age-old dilemma of passion versus comfort, and she chose passion. (And I think comfort versus passion is a theme in some of the posts on this site.) But now, I understand that passion is fleeting and believe that if you leave a relationship, it should be to leave that relationship. You don’t leave the relationship for someone else, particularly someone you don’t know well and haven’t spent adequate time with because you were still tied to your partner. And the movie was accurate in showing how people who do that often bounce back and forth between the two partners. They don’t know what they want.
“I’d probably have focused on her beauty … Now I wouldn’t touch her with a ten foot pole.”
I don’t think I’d touch him. Well, maybe for a night. 🙂 But he’d have to change pants. For some reason, the costume design put him in short pants that looked ridiculous. 🙂
“You’ve never had anyone do that to you? I have and never said, something is wrong with the shower. ”
Not that I remember. No. 🙂
“They both, not just him, have the emotions of children. They talk to each other in the extremes of either baby talk ”
Because that’s how they relate to each other. Their dynamic is screwy and … well, calcified. They haven’t grown together.
“I thought it was him who had these weird love talk styles but she does the blowing thing with a real stranger in the Uber ride home and the baby talk with Daniel but he ain’t having it.”
I do remember the blowing scene. I thought it was a bit weird.
“That’s because she wants to go back to a man she can pee in front of and not have them leave the bathroom. Again, Daniel wasn’t having that when she tried that on him.”
I’m with Daniel. If you want me to do stuff to you, I don’t want to see you on the can. 🙂
“But why would you want to?”
We disagree on this part of limmerence. Why? Because one might want to have the greatest chance at a healthy lasting love. That only comes from allowing yourselves to truly know the other. Limmerence blocks that from occurring because it skips those crucial discovery steps.
“The limerence on this site is the dark side of limerence. When it gets stuck because the relationship can’t be fully consummated.”
Again we disagree on this part of limerence. I think it’s all dark. For me, limerence started very rapidly. Probably at least in part after the first date, no more than two. That’s not good. How could I ever get to know her? I couldn’t because I started inventing the LO right away not because I couldn’t consummate it, we saw each other many more times through the next two years, but because I was CooCoo for CoaCoa Puffs in limerence.
“I am not big on talking about sex in detail because it takes every bit of the surprise and mystery and spontaneity out of it when you actually get down to it.”
Oh I’ve touched the face of God several times during sex and it never involved surprise, mystery, or spontaneity. 😂 Techniques, practice, repetition, comfort, communication, openness, maybe some improvisation? We evidently differ on this too.
“But he’d have to change pants. For some reason, the costume design put him in short pants that looked ridiculous.”
Well a handsome man in silly pants is still a handsome man. You might have forgotten that he was a rickshaw driver. Have you ever run in pants? 😂 I have. Never pulled a rickshaw though. You want the capri or gaucho pants or culottes. No skinny leg bluejeans. No tight leather pants. He had to hump to get Margot and her husband to the theater. He was evidently a well paid rickshaw driver, too. He worked very little, lived alone without roommates in pretty big rooms with private bathrooms. Had a truck too and lots of stuff all on rickshaw pay. Could afford plane tickets, vacations. Sorry I’ll stop. 😂.
Hamlet,
” Why? Because one might want to have the greatest chance at a healthy lasting love. ”
Dr. L and his wife were mutually limerent. Why would you want to give up that luscious, “in love” phase? It’s one of life’s greatest pleasures.
“That only comes from allowing yourselves to truly know the other. Limerence blocks that from occurring because it skips those crucial discovery steps.”
We can get to know each other after the limerence. 🙂 I agree that it’s a gamble. Fingers crossed this is a decent person you can bond with after the limerence dies down. And maybe only very lucky people can become initially limerent for a person who is, ultimately, a good, long-term partner. The other alternative is to become friends first — which is to go in with your eyes wide open to who each other is — and hope you get attracted.
“Again we disagree on this part of limerence. I think it’s all dark. For me, limerence started very rapidly. Probably at least in part after the first date, no more than two. That’s not good. How could I ever get to know her? ”
It’s called infatuation.
“I couldn’t because I started inventing the LO right away not because I couldn’t consummate it, we saw each other many more times through the next two years, but because I was CooCoo for CoaCoa Puffs in limerence.”
Yes, but a healthier response would have been to recognize she wasn’t the right person for whatever reason and move on. And any reason things didn’t work out was the reason to move on. An unhealthy response: latching onto an idea of who the person was and not letting go and not moving on (or moving on physically but not emotionally).
“Oh I’ve touched the face of God several times during sex and it never involved surprise, mystery, or spontaneity. 😂”
So it involved intensity? 🙂
” Techniques, practice, repetition”
Sounds like we’re doing an exercise drill. 🙂
“, comfort, communication, openness, maybe some improvisation? We evidently differ on this too.”
Comfort during hot sex? No, thank you. 🙂
“Well a handsome man in silly pants is still a handsome man. You might have forgotten that he was a rickshaw driver. Have you ever run in pants? 😂”
No grown man should ever wear short pants. 🙂 And, yes, I agree, how he lived was equally ridiculous. He’s a rickshaw driver and a part-time artist and he affords that cool apartment? I don’t think so. But so many movies and TV shows do that. Look at “Sex and the City.” She writes ONE column a week and can afford a big apartment in Manhattan, a closet of $400 shoes (in today’s dollars: almost $800), and dinners and nights out on the town? Nope. 🙂
“Yes, but a healthier response would have been to recognize she wasn’t the right person for whatever reason and move on.”
Oh… You have it wrong. She could have been the right one. Limmerence blocks out the bad and that gets talked about here many times, but it also blocks out the good. It substitutes the true and real with an alternate invented by the mind. It’s akin to beer goggles, you’re not seeing the real beauty, your inebriated brain is seeing beauty but it’s some fuzzy unreal version of beauty. Never as good as the real beauty, but more beautiful than the not so beautiful. The other part of limmerence for an impossible situation, that came later.
“Sounds like we’re doing an exercise drill.”
Oh…you think MJ (Michael Jordan not your MJ 😂) became the basketball player would could do beautiful things on the court just by fantasizing about it? Or a great chef gets to be great by not putting in all the work of making the same thing over and over until he masters it and can now improvise? Same goes for great dancers, great musicians. Everything really including greatness in sex is like that.
“Comfort during hot sex? No, thank you.”
By comfort I meant trust, as in comfort with the other person. Some people are quite comfortable having complete strangers do whatever they want to them. So this is of course a personal thing. As far as hotness, everyone’s kink is their own. Again, it’s personal.
“Dr. L and his wife were mutually limerent.”
I thought I’d said it in this thread without saying the quiet part out loud that such a story that he tells about how his trouble with limerence began isn’t and can’t be totally true. Something was going on with the person or the marriage (and again the person is the marriage so it goes back to the person), or both. You have the it’s neither but just life theory. That fits more with the story he tells. I really don’t know. Anything is possible, just some things are highly improbable. Akin to our critique of the lifestyle of Daniel or Sex and the City. Just like in watching those things, I don’t mind pressing the I believe button and moving on. I’m glad his story is what it is and that it resolved in the best possible way and he’s helped a lot of people.
Hamlet,
“Oh… You have it wrong. She could have been the right one”
I don’t know your whole story (there are a lot on here and I’ve been posting for a while) … did you date this woman? Was it a relationship? Otherwise, she wasn’t the right person. She wasn’t the one. In order for someone to be the right one, they have to want to be with you. LImerence isn’t the culprit. It’s staying mired in the idea that the person was right or maybe they could have been right if the situation was different. But the situation wasn’t different. I’ll use myself as an example. Last LO had a partner. He’s not the right one. It’s really the simple. And a couple of LOs ago, we did date but I wanted things to be more serious. He wasn’t the right one.
“Oh…you think MJ (Michael Jordan not your MJ 😂)”
Yeah, unfortunately, we have yet to find his talents. We’re not sure what skills he contributes to the world. 🙂
“Same goes for great dancers, great musicians. Everything really including greatness in sex is like that.”
Well, I’m a middle-aged woman. If I got with a man, he’d be around my age. Even if he was a bit younger, he’d still be in his 30s or 40s. Ostensibly, he’s had some practice. 🙂 At my stage in life, it comes down to… are we sexually compatible? Doesn’t mean you can’t work on it or improve it, but there has to be a certain level of … it just clicks. And that’s there or it’s not.
“By comfort I meant trust, as in comfort with the other person. ”
Ok
“I thought I’d said it in this thread without saying the quiet part out loud that such a story that he tells about how his trouble with limerence began isn’t and can’t be totally true.”
I’m not sure what you’re not finding true. They met when they were young and fell for each other. And they turned out to be good, long-term partners for each other. But just because you were mutually limerent in the beginning doesn’t mean you’ll never have ups and downs or bumps in the road. And if you have two limerents in a relationship (I believe he said they both were) … it’s just a matter of time before one or both become limerent for someone else. How do you prevent that? You have to work on yourself and figure out why you’re a limerent. (And to be clear, I’m talking about the darker side of limerence. Not an attraction or crush but obsessive ruminating for months or years over someone you can’t have.)
“his trouble with limerence began”
Slow down. No, his trouble with limerence began when he became limerent for a co-worker after what he describes as a long period of contented life as a husband. I’m not a lawyer, but hmmm, can the defendant define “contended life of a husband” ? 😂. We had talked about it’s either just life (your theory as to the cause but regardless something problematic occurs) or something is lacking in the person or lacking in the marriage that causes an affair and that limerence for an SO is a type of affair.
“Well, I’m a middle-aged woman.”
FYI when a woman needlessly announces that what I hear is they are announcing that they’re an old lady who just wants comfort in bed and doesn’t want to be contorted like a young ballerina. 😂 Which is opposite to you writing, “Comfort during hot sex? No, thank you.” You also made a comment about needing “surprise and mystery and spontaneity” to which I replied that those weren’t needed for great sex to which you now say is “At my stage in life, it comes down to… are we sexually compatible?” Huh!?! That sounds vanilla as hell. Or OMG, it sounds like you’re looking for comfort! 😂 What does that even mean? 😂😂😂 Don’t answer, please. I know the answer and this is too much sex talk.
“If I got with a man, he’d be around my age. Even if he was a bit younger, he’d still be in his 30s or 40s.”
A bit younger at 30? That’s a millennial. My oldest is 29! Ok so you were hiding the fact that you are the female version of MJ. I’m going to laugh so hard when you announce one day that your new boyfriend is also Latino. 😂😂😂
We’re having two separate conversations and not understanding each other. We’re on two separate planets.
Probably best to nip it in the bud.
“Ok so you were hiding the fact that you are the female version of MJ. I’m going to laugh so hard when you announce one day that your new boyfriend is also Latino.”
I think you might be on to something there Hamlet.
She can’t fool me by just happening to mention her next lover could be in his 30s or 40s. She wants them for the stamina and the fresh young vibe. Although I still keep trying to win her heart.. 🤓
Guess I should let her in on the secret.. I’ve got some Latino blood running in my veins too. 😆🪇
MJ,
“She can’t fool me by just happening to mention her next lover could be in his 30s or 40s. She wants them for the stamina and the fresh young vibe.”
Don’t we all? 🙂
And the word is “lover.” Not “boyfriend.” 🙂
“Guess I should let her in on the secret.. I’ve got some Latino blood running in my veins too. 😆🪇”
Everything about your posts screams white boy. 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzFRgvAatw
This is the kind of dynamic you need to look for. Jaime Pressly and Jon Favreau in “I Love You, Man.” It cracks me up.
MJ, just give your 🪇 a good shake, she’ll come around. 😂
“And the word is “lover.” Not “boyfriend.” 🙂”
Marcia
Ewwww, thats disgusting..
What kind of Woman are you?? 😆
“Everything about your posts screams white boy. 🙂”
Upon meeting me, yes you will come to that realization, but my Grandfather was a full blooded Mexican, who married a white lady. My Father looks more white than Mexican, so guess who else looks white too??
This 👉🏻 “White” Boy.. (With graying hair) 😆😆
“This is the kind of dynamic you need to look for.”
Funny clip.. 😆 That kinda reminds me of my Ex when she gets frustrated. When we were together, she had no problem talking to me like that.. Good times.. 😂
This is more like my dynamic. I see this and Ana De Armas so reminds me of LF, when her and I would bicker..
She ditches her accent in this part, but I still lmao when she suggests they should go for a coffee..
https://youtu.be/uQpd_FrIpXQ?si=lnTaspY5fGe_XJaO
“MJ, just give your 🪇 a good shake, she’ll come around. 😂”
Hamlet
I just did.. 🪇
I’ll expect her to ring me with a reply very shortly..
She can’t resist.. 😂
MJ,
“Ewwww, thats disgusting..
What kind of Woman are you?? 😆”
One who is smart enough to know I couldn’t commit to someone super young. But if they showed up at my door for an extended throw down (depending on who they are) … I ain’t going to say no. 🙂
“This 👉🏻 “White” Boy.. (With graying hair) 😆😆”
They have dye for that. 🙂 Just don’t go too dark or you’ll look like you put shoe polish on your hair. 🙂
“Just don’t go too dark or you’ll look like you put shoe polish on your hair”
Marcia
I’ve been gray for so long, to go and change it would just be ridiculous. I actually feel this look fits me way better. If I dye it, I feel that would make look too desperate and weak. Women are critical of every little thing anyway and I think you can tell when a guy is doing it to keep his youthful appearance. It’s cringe and you probably get a good laugh out of it..
“But if they showed up at my door for an extended throw down (depending on who they are) … I ain’t going to say no. 🙂”
You go girl.. By the way, what’s your address again? I’ll be right over.. 😆
Actually I just want Google Maps to give me an estimate on how long it would take me to get there before Thanksgiving.. 😂
MJ,
“I think you can tell when a guy is doing it to keep his youthful appearance. ”
What’s wrong with doing things to look younger?
“By the way, what’s your address again? I’ll be right over.. 😆”
My dear, you are my age. The price of admission is higher. 🙂
“What’s wrong with doing things to look younger?”
Marcia
Nothing actually. Its just you can tell an older Dude that dyes his hair. It looks odd and out of place. Like you mentioned above, shoe polish..
For Women its totally different. They can get away with all kinds of colors and it seems at any age, does not matter. Many times it helps.
“My dear, you are my age. The price of admission is higher. 🙂”
My love, you forget age is just a number and I’m a Union Man.. I can afford you.. 🤑
MJ,
“My love, you forget age is just a number ”
You know who says that? Old people who are in denial. 🙂
“and I’m a Union Man.. I can afford you.. 🤑”
“Price of admission” was a metaphor. I’d forgotten how LITERAL you are, my sweetness. It’s just more hoops you’d have to jump through than your younger counterparts. You have to make up for the age. 🙂
MJ,
“I just did.. 🪇
I’ll expect her to ring me with a reply very shortly..
She can’t resist.. 😂”
Yep. I’m happy things are set right again with your fantasy league picks.
Mom, Dad can we watch Parent Trap together?! I’ll make some popcorn and we can all be one big happy family. I’ll be on my best behavior, I promise!
Oh, might I suggest that the family watch Love Switch (2024) together.
I watched Take This Waltz last night. And yeah, she did seem depressed, even recognized the same thing in her niece, called it melancholy (as they would have called it in, say, 18th-century Gothic novels). The dynamic between her and her husband was very weird, very infantile, so it’s not surprising that it didn’t last.
I think the depiction of third parties in the sex scenes was to carry on the theme voiced by one of the characters in the shower scene: New things become old. The montage scene was a progression. In the beginning it was hot; over time it became old, so they brought in new people to spice it up. That didn’t work, so they fell into the post-limerent stage of sitting watching TV cuddled up together. It could’ve been a scene of contentment with each other, but she still was not satisfied.
I think it’s a good thing that her ex refused to take her back at the end, and that she ended up alone. It seems more realistic. The smile at the end meant that she had to learn how to be happy in herself and not depend on men to make her happy, because obviously that wasn’t working for her.
Though I did think the nudity was rather gratuitous. 😛
I can’t bring myself to dye my hair. It’s too expensive, too time-consuming, and I keep hearing how damaging it is to hair. I’ve always babied mine and it’s still soft and swingy, despite the hateful gray around the temples. 🙂
Hi Serial,
We seemed to have watched the same movie. 😊 I too was thinking the nudity was excessive but much like with the scene repetition this filmmaker uses, they really like to tell the story with visual symbols as well as dialogue. As the person says, “New things become old.” we are literally seeing old bodies segregated from the newer bodies on the screen. Yeah not too subtle and lots of nudity to reinforce the point.
Serial,
I thought it was kind of implied she was still with the neighbor but testing the waters with the estranged husband ? It’s been years since I’ve seen it so I don’t remember every scene.
“I can’t bring myself to dye my hair. It’s too expensive, too time-consuming, and I keep hearing how damaging it is to hair. I’ve always babied mine and it’s still soft and swingy, despite the hateful gray around the temples. 🙂”
I do it myself. About every 2 or 3 months. Costs about $10 each time. I am not looking at that gray every morning. 🙂 I’ve gotten compliments on it from 2 different professional stylists so I figure for a home job it’s not bad.
Adam,
If your “brother” needs two wingmen to jam themselves into the situation … Houston, we have a problem. 🙂
I just suggested a movie for the family members to watch, that’s all. I’m not interested in watching compatibility tests.
After she leaves her ex the last time, there is a silent scene where she’s standing with her new SO and he’s looking away and it’s implied that she’s breaking up with him.
And yeah, no, I won’t be doing my own dye job. It would probably end up like Anne Shirley with the green hair. 🙂
“You know who says that? Old people who are in denial. 🙂”
Marcia
But we’re the same age and I bet you won’t admit it either. So I think we’re kind of even. I’ll bet you even dye your hair..
Hmm, I’m thinking you’re either a brunette or jet black..
““Price of admission” was a metaphor. It’s just more hoops you’d have to jump through than your younger counterparts.”
I knew thats where you were going. I wanted you to know I’m up for the challenge. I’m capable of jumping through hoops. But why may I ask do I have to? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
Serial,
“After she leaves her ex the last time, there is a silent scene where she’s standing with her new SO and he’s looking away and it’s implied that she’s breaking up with him.”
That’s too bad. He’s a cutie. 🙂
“And yeah, no, I won’t be doing my own dye job. It would probably end up like Anne Shirley with the green hair. 🙂”
If I can do it, any monkey can do it. 🙂
I’ll be doing MJ’s hair next. 🙂
MJ,
“So I think we’re kind of even. I’ll bet you even dye your hair..
Of course I dye my hair. I know age is a hindrance. I’m not like you and think I can just show up as myself. 🙂
“But why may I ask do I have to?”
Because I could text a 32-year-old right now and set up an evening. 🙂
“Because I could text a 32-year-old right now and set up an evening. 🙂”
Marcia Dear
Because you’re a Woman and this is always easier for a Woman. He’s obviously into older Women. Which is fine.
You go girl.. 😆
(There.. I said it.. 😛)
“I’ll be doing MJ’s hair next. 🙂”
Ummm. No.
I saw my Ex earlier. She commented on how gray I’m getting.. Her polite way of saying I’m looking older again. I told her to be quiet, but if she was going to keep stating the obvious, to at least tell me I look distinguished.. (It’s what she always told me in my 30s, when the gray was less. 😂)
MJ,
“Because you’re a Woman and this is always easier for a Woman. ”
You keep pointing that out. I guess if that makes you feel better.
But I have no intention of contacting him. I’d go without before contacting him.
“She commented on how gray I’m getting.. Her polite way of saying I’m looking older again. ”
That’s two of us telling you that you need to dye it. 🙂
I wear my gray as a badge of honor. I will never dye my hair/beard. Even my boss, who desperately tires to look younger than he is (including dating a woman probably half his age) doesn’t dye his gray. And he’s only 7 years younger than me.
I’ll never get dye. My wife has grayed since before I met her and it took me 20 plus years to convince her, that I truly do like her silver hair before she finally stopped dyeing it. And now she has a beautiful head of silver hair. I am quite fond of women with silver hair. I think it is very attractive. To me it is a big middle finger up to society’s idea of conventional beauty in a woman.
Adam,
“I wear my gray as a badge of honor. ”
You might think differently if you were single and on the market and trying to attract someone new.
“That’s two of us telling you that you need to dye it. 🙂”
Marcia Dear
I appreciate the suggestion but I’ll probably pass. It would simply be too much of a change and would most likely make me look ridiculous. As if I’m reaching for the stars or something. I mean I am kind of desperate but not so desperate or ready to take that plunge into the deep just yet. The Ladies I’m talking to don’t seem to mind and I am enjoying getting to know them.
LO doesn’t seem to mind gray haired Dudes either, as her guy has more gray in his beard than Santa Claus has in his. If a gray haired/bearded Dude can land the hottest living Woman in the known Universe, then by golly there’s gotta be a Woman, God-willing somewhere, thats going to meet up with me for coffee..
I’m getting ready to plan a night out with NewGirl sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas. As long as my schedule will allow it. You’ll be the first to know how that goes..
MJ,
Except where noted, just to be clear, my tone is serious in this post. (As opposed to my usual “fun” tone in posts because we like to razz each other.)
“I appreciate the suggestion but I’ll probably pass. It would simply be too much of a change and would most likely make me look ridiculous.”
The only people whose opinions you should care about are the women’s you’re trying to talk to. That’s it. No one else matters. That’s your target audience. And of course your own opinion. I don’t happen to agree with it, but it’s your hair.
“LO doesn’t seem to mind gray haired Dudes either, as her guy has more gray in his beard than Santa Claus has in his. If a gray haired/bearded Dude can land the hottest living Woman in the known Universe, then by golly there’s gotta be a Woman, God-willing somewhere, thats going to meet up with me for coffee..”
We talked about this. You can’t get out of your LE if you continue with this my-LO-is-perfection, escape-hatch mentality. Please do not post this kind of stuff to me. It’s not helping you progress. At all.
“I’m getting ready to plan a night out with NewGirl sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas. As long as my schedule will allow it. You’ll be the first to know how that goes..”
That’s a very large window of time.
Fun tone: I’m really only interested in hearing about it if you make a move. And, then, yes, I’d like all the dets. 🙂
“That’s it. No one else matters. That’s your target audience. And of course your own opinion. I don’t happen to agree with it, but it’s your hair.”
Marcia
It is my hair and since I’m not getting any vibe that is a mark against me, I’m not really concerned with changing it. Allow me to also be serious in this reply..
I’m trying not to be too focused on myself in my interactions with anybody at this point because that is exactly how I was in the worst of LE. Most likely fixating on everything beimg all about me. How I would have appeared or come off towards LO was the reason I always looked like a horses a$$ when I would see her. Freezing up like a dumb Deer. Trying to impress and be cool, when I was anything but. Then convincing myself she was already out of my league. That’s the insanity of my mindset. I somehow still want to believe she is attainable, when I make no effort, nor do I really want to try. She’s just a fun idea when the world pisses me off or saddens me. Which is quite frequent.
“We talked about this. You can’t get out of your LE if you continue with this my-LO-is-perfection, escape-hatch mentality. Please do not post this kind of stuff to me. It’s not helping you progress. At all.”
Ok I won’t. Although I think I’ve highlighted just now, the progress I have made. If I’m too wrapped in selfishness, then what good does that do me? Even if the circumstances had all played out like I wanted them to with LO, I would have dumped all that adoration and pedestaling on her when she most likely would not have wanted it. Or deserved it. Isn’t this why as limerents we dare not ever disclose? After all, I’m still wiping the egg off my face from LF and will probably never live it down.
I guess what I’m saying is I feel like I have made progress and probably treat the LE more lightly now. Even though its not the point of the forum. I can’t live thru anybodys situation, so I can’t say if they’ll want to go drive their car off a bridge like I did at one point. I would hope not. You and I joke around and I enjoy that, but I know when you’ve had enough of my asinine-ness. I know it overall isn’t helping. However LO caused a paradigm shift in my mindset I think. Now I’m just living what the forum is about. With limerence.
Both Ladies I’m talking to are Latinas and are beautiful in their own unique way. I’m trying to see past just a gorgeous face and TikToks that are very superficial in nature, to say the least. Not every Woman can be graced with looks like LO. My guess is if I ever could actually tell her that, she would think the exact opposite. Maybe even tell me to go to hell. Women are constantly on a self improvement kick and never feel good enough. No matter how good they actually appear or try to impart to us. My thoughts/opinions would not matter. I’m nobody to her but “that guy” that worked with her across the street and nothing more.
“That’s a very large window of time.”
It is but also taking care of an aging parent requires stamina, integrity and the hope I won’t go out of my mind while forcing myself thru it. This is the hand being dealt to me. I manage two households, work full time, put a Daughter thru college and am doing all this basically by myself because I am an only-child. My only help is a daytime caretaker, who is only part-time. My hands are beyond tied and overwhelmed. Which is probably why I bitch so much about not ever being able to just sit down and enjoy a cup of coffee with someone.. Anyone.. Who is willing and able to put up with even a fraction of a second of my $hit-show. No good Woman wants this. I don’t want to even introduce the thought of it to them. Its life and I have to deal.. Is it any wonder then I became a Limerent?? I cannot say it enough to anyone here. I would not wish this condition on anybody. Even my own worst enemy.
The date will happen and if it doesn’t then I’ll do some more self-destructive hate on myself and try to plot out my next move. Its not that simple for me.. Unlike it is for you obviously and probably a lot of other Women.
I know I repeat that often, but its just how it is..
MJ,
“That’s the insanity of my mindset. I somehow still want to believe she is attainable, when I make no effort, nor do I really want to try. She’s just a fun idea when the world pisses me off or saddens me. Which is quite frequent.”
There it is! A light of reality through the limerent fog. I’m going to give you some tough love here. I’m pulling a Snow. 🙂 When you write about your LO’s perfection, it sounds like a teenage boy writing about his celebrity crush.
“Even if the circumstances had all played out like I wanted them to with LO, I would have dumped all that adoration and pedestaling on her when she most likely would not have wanted it. ”
Did you want them to? Because you did nothing to make that happen. I’m not asking you these questions to point out your failure at talking to her. I’m asking them to point out … I don’t think you really wanted something to happen with her. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing to conclude. That could lead to a path of … letting it go.
And, no, no woman worth her salt wants her ass kissed. It’s very unappealing.
“After all, I’m still wiping the egg off my face from LF and will probably never live it down.”
We’ve talked about her. Ad nauseam. 🙂 You did orbit too long. But … I don’t think what you told her was so bad (from what you’ve hinted). Ok, you made some mistakes in the past. Who hasn’t? What it boils down to is … she wasn’t the friend you needed. She judged you and was, from what you’ve written, wildly hypocritical. You saw a side of her that was not great. Remember that … because that’s who she is.
“so I can’t say if they’ll want to go drive their car off a bridge like I did at one point.”
That’s good. I’m glad you’re feeling better.
“It is but also taking care of an aging parent requires stamina, integrity and the hope I won’t go out of my mind while forcing myself thru it. ”
Does your father live with you or is he still in his home? Is that doable for the long-term? I’m certainly not going to tec you how much time to spend with your dad, but I think you do need to carve out some time for yourself. Even little chunks of it here and there.
“The date will happen and if it doesn’t then I’ll do some more self-destructive hate on myself and try to plot out my next move. Its not that simple for me.. Unlike it is for you obviously and probably a lot of other Women.”
I do not feel bad about that. Life is not easy as a middle-aged woman. Do I need to point out all the posts exalting the beauty of younger women on here? If I have a SLIVER of advantage in the sexual marketplace, I’m taking it.
Hello all,
This forum is so busy that it’s hard to keep on top of reading everyone’s posts and following how everyone’s doing. Norma, I’m glad you had a nice birthday and that cheesecake sounds lovely. Adam the veteran, MJ, Tryingtobefree and Marcia, it’s good to read all your wisdom in the above posts because so many of our experiences are similar.
In the last couple of weeks I’ve had the most serious blip since discovering this site and reading Smitten in April this year. I haven’t seen as much of LO recently and I felt as though my brain was returning to normal, and then out of the blue he appeared in a dream, with a nice hug. That day I spoke to him briefly, and a couple of days later I had about an hour in his company, which is the longest time for months. It’s hard to see how I could have avoided that encounter without being rude. I felt both elated and awful afterwards. Since then I’ve had to employ all my brain training techniques, spoiling rewards and reminding myself how miserable this situation makes me, but I think I’ve basically regained my composure now. At the same time, my husband continues to be wonderful, and I long for him just as much as I always have, and I would never want to be with anyone else. It’s so confusing how I can have romantic thoughts simultaneously about two men.
I honestly think that if No Contact were possible, I’d be fine and wouldn’t look back. It’s just seeing him and spending time with him that makes my brain go round in circles of admiration, guilt and confusion.
Onwards and upwards.
To Miss Cloud:
I am glad you posted about this. It’s such a blessing that you’re here.
Just think how much better off you are with the knowledge you have. Knowledge is power, and you’re utilizing that.
I sometimes think that if I were a superstitious person living several hundred years ago, with no insight and no resources to gain insight, I might believe that LO is some kind of witch who had put a spell on me.
Dreams are tricky, since we can’t control them. I have been very rattled by my own dreams.
Please come here to post if you feel the need.
Thank you, Norma. Yes, knowledge makes all the difference. Before I stumbled on that newspaper article which introduced me to Dr L’s work and I devoured Smitten in a few days, I had no idea what was happening to me. I had an inkling that surely this must happen to other people too, by Dr L’s work gave me the tools to understand what was happening and take control of myself.
I’m finding his “On not knowing what you want” post helpful right now. Sometimes I think it’s helpful to name and confront what I crave in order to understand and figure out what I actually want and what will make me happy. Simply saying that I want “to stop thinking about this other person” is obvious, but easier said than done, so then I have to think deeper about what it is that my brain is craving and how to reverse those unhelpful thought patterns.
I find it helpful to remind myself that the grass is not greener on the other side.
Dear Cloud,
I have been reading about your limerence journey for a while now, and have always welcomed your very wise observations and suggestions.
I can relate to the struggles you have had recently with your LO, right down to the dream you had about the hug.
My own history of hugs/non-hugs with LOs, as well as others, goes back at least four decades. Growing up, I had a strong aversion to hugs, and rebuffed them at all costs, since I thought that touchy feely stuff was too girlish for me.
However, I payed a huge penalty from this early training insofar as it affected my social and romantic aspirations. The best example was when I was with this girl in college — let’s call her LO2 (my LO1 was from high school) — was describing to me her own profound sadness at being rejected from admission to graduate school. She said, “I really wish someone would give me a hug.” Instead of hugging her, I just froze. After graduation, my LE rose and fell for another two years, which were spent mostly in NC, since we were by then several hundred miles apart. That LE came to an end only when I summoned the courage to finally disclose the depth of my feelings in all their intensity, knowing fully well that she was living with her fiancé. She told me in a calm, measured voice that we should no longer stay in touch. I respected and honored her decision, which she made when she was at most 22-23. She was more mature at that age than most people at any age. I continued to admire her, but with this decision, the uncertainty was removed, the LE quickly lost its potency, and I could move on with my life. In the decades since, I have had a number of other LOs and even got married nearly two decades later, but LO2 remained the LO to top all other LOs.
My lesson from this experience was to improve my comfort level with hugging. This has been fairly easy with my wife, but experiences with future LOs have been somewhat nerve wracking. However, a couple of now-fading LOs continue to reach out for hugs, which I really find comfort in, but without the longing. From these experiences, I managed to convince myself that regularly hugging your LO makes the limerence go away more quickly. Which brings us to the present…
I have never hugged my current LO, the former intern and current coworker. However, in June of this year, I had the most surreal dream I can recall — the LO was dressed in white; indeed the entire room had a white glow, evoking the afterlife. Is this where I have to go, to finally reach her? I asked to hug her, and we did … until I woke up, and was completely shaken up for the next few weeks. Another failed hug after all, just like the one four decades earlier.
I then sought online help, and came to this site. My limerence slowly started to fade. And then, two months later, I unexpectedly ran into her at work, and had yet ANOTHER surreal, euphoric experience, but infinitely more real than the dream. I’ve remarked on this elsewhere on this site. This experience rivals LO2 from college in its intensity, but I have yet to reach the stage where I am no longer bargaining. Since then, I’ve had deliberate LC with her, and have been making progress in overcoming my LE, one/two steps forward, one step back — but I suspect it’s going to be a long journey.
While the details of my experiences differ from yours, the kinds of emotions I have — the “circles of admiration, guilt and confusion” — mirror your own.
Cloud, I really wish you the best of luck.
As you say, onwards and upwards.
CatCyclist,
What an emotional story and journey! Those early experiences of crushes/love/limerence/whatever affect us for many years afterwards. I’m sorry you’ve had such a complicated relationship with hugs. I wonder if there is some element or trait of neurodiversity involved?
I am not planning to start hugging LO in order to reduce limerence. That doesn’t sound like a good idea for me. 🤣
My little girl is a prolific bestower of hugs and does hug him frequently. I will stick with hugging my lovely husband.
Cloud,
Thanks again for your astute observations.
As to the question on neurodiversity, I have long suspected it in myself, at least since it became fashionable to do so! I have had a number of traits, especially in childhood, and in addition to the human touch issue, that might point towards it. I’ve raised the issue with my psychologist, who does not believe I qualify for a formal diagnosis. She believes that the profession suffers from an epidemic of overdiagnosis; it is better to find simpler explanations.
I am glad you came to the conclusion that “That (hugging) doesn’t sound like a good idea for me.” I was mostly trying to be ironic, but my irony is often so subtle that even I sometimes miss the irony! Hence my confusion!
“The only advantage LO has over SO is novelty.” It is great that you are so firm in your realization, and in your commitment to your SO. Sounds like even when you are undergoing periodic difficulties, you are going to stick to your long term goals.
For me, the question goes beyond the novelty of the LO. While my SO has so many wonderful qualities and I am thorougly committed to her, unlike with LO, there was hardly an initial glimmer, and my physical attraction towards my SO had mostly disappeared for most of our relationship. She is of a different body type than the women to which I develop limerence. Retraining my mind to recover my attraction towards her is an ongoing task, but that aspect of our relationship has improved greatly in the past year, as she has often noted and appreciates.
Thanks again for your important observations.
I too think that I have some traits of neurodivergence, but not enough to warrant an assessment. I think it’s helpful to notice these brain differences in ourselves as well as acknowledging that there are people around us whose differences lead to sufficient challenges in everyday life that a diagnosis is helpful. I don’t want to minimise their disability by jumping on the bandwagon but it’s helpful to notice traits in ourselves to understand where they come from.
Cloud,
I agree with your sentiment not to “jump on the bandwagon” regarding neurodiversity. I have a few relatives diagnosed with autism who cannot be ever capable of independent living as adults. Whatever we have, it should not be put in the same catagory as their condition.
One thing that makes getting getting over my current LO so difficult is my intense feeling that we are kindred spirits, and that she may have neurodiversity also. It has been nearly two months since our last intense encounter, but due to practiced no contact on my part, nearly every encounter — both of them since this summer — are proving to be intense. Every time I feel that I am about to turn a corner, the thoughts about LO invariably return. In intensity and sense of connection, this LE rivals the one in college from 40 years ago, something that I never thought would ever happen again. However, I am behaving in a more functional way, something I did not do in that old college experience. But as hard as I try, being truly purposeful remains elusive.
I phrased that poorly — “but due to practiced no contact” should have been that due to deliberate no contact, our encounters are far apart, but in spite of my vows to keep them short, they explode in intensity.
And yes, I have been reading, and rereading, all of Dr L’s material, including his Emergency Deprogramming Course.
CatCyclist (or Cloud or others who is relevant to),
How did you find the deprogramming course – was it helpful? I thought about doing it when I was ‘at the heights’, but I chatted on here to DrL and he said it probably wasn’t right for me at the time, as I needed to want to, and be able to, let go more than I then did.
I’m interested to hear what extra the course gave you (or others who’ve done it) in your toolbox for managing and ultimately getting free from limerence.
LaR, I would find it helpful to know, too. I don’t think I need it right now as I’ve read Smitten and lots of material on here and am carrying out my own deprogramming, but it would be helpful to know if the additional structure provided by the course would be helpful over and above what I’m already doing.
Cloud,
Glad to hear that Smitten was so helpful to you. I have a hunch (could be wrong) that the book and the course would be on similar lines.
Hi LaR and Cloud,
I would say that about 80 percent of the ideas and techniques in the Emergence Deprogramming Course could also be found in his blogs, so if you go through his blogs carefully, you are already mostly there.
Where the course is most useful is in its systematic, linear presentation, complete with exercises that you can answer in a way that best fits your needs. Overall, I would give the course high marks, at least 4.5/5 stars if asked to rate on such a scale.
Did I find it helpful, and did it help me overcome my limerence? The answer to the former is yes, definitely; but to the latter, it is “not yet”.
Perhaps I am in the wrong phase of my limerence episode, which has been on going for over two years now, or maybe I am still doing too much bargaining. Peak limerence for me was in June through July of this year. Since then, my intrusive thoughts have declined somewhat, but have mysteriously ticked up in the past couple of weeks, in spite of essentially no contact for nearly two months. I took the course in August and then had a refresher in October. Each time, I was extremely motivated for several days after each attempt, only to experience a little bit of regression.
Looking at my experince with limerence, as well of most of the posters here, I wonder if vigorous attempts to get over the LE actually does much to lessen its duration. Perhaps it helps us in somewhat better understanding ourselves and reducing our suffering, without helping us to “get over it” more quickly.
I haven’t done the deprogramming program myself, as by the time I considered it, I’d already consumed a lot of reading on limerence and the general best actions to take.
However, knowing what is best to do and actually doing it are two different things !
I would be very interested to hear from Sapiens again in due course, if he has truly overcome his limerence long term.
He seemed to be able to switch almost overnight from being full limerent to then not.
I cannot comprehend that, as for me as it’s a long slow process.
“Makes my brain go round in circles of admiration, guilt and confusion.”
Cloud
Welcome to the aggravating world of limerence. Your words pretty much sum things up. However, I’m glad to read you’re getting along with your SO. Never lose that, because it will probably cause you immense regret at some point if you do.
MJ, thank you! I have no intention of losing that. He is everything to me and we are close. It’s very confusing why I’m here!
The only advantage LO has over SO is novelty.
I need to get my head on straight after a disturbing dream about LO.
I have been doing pretty well this past week, not missing him terribly. Anyone who is following my story may recall that LO texted me last week on my birthday with the message, “I feel blessed to have you in my life.” I did not respond, but my first thought was, “Talk is cheap and you’re a flake.”
If he feels so blessed, then why does he act the way he does? Put up or shut up.
So those thoughts have been in the forefront of my mind, focusing on his unreliability and his constant pre-occupation with (what else?) himself.
Unfortunately I had a dream wherein I took my oldest daughter to meet him. His lavish crazy house looked completely different, but still lavish and crazy. We finally found him, in the company of his mother and one of her nephews. LO kissed the nephew passionately on the mouth in full view of all of us.
My daughter and I were grossed out and left. I hope this dream is a good sign.
This is an odd dream in light of something that happened at Starbucks a while back. LO was standing in line and I came in. When I come in behind him, I sometimes gently touch him on the back to let him know it’s me. He’s always been fine with it. This one time, he snapped, “Don’t do that!!!” I retorted “SORRY!” and turned around and walked out the door.
He texted me, apologized, and asked me to come back. I couldn’t imagine why he was so sensitive after being fine with it for months. Turns out he had his mother with him this time and apparently he didn’t want Mommy to see me touch his back. The horror! She may or may not have seen, since she was seated across the room.
Sixty-seven years old and still scared of what Mommy will think. He claims that he’s embarrassed by PDA, but a gentle touch on the back is hardly a PDA.
So in light of that background, a very odd dream.
Thanks to anyone who is listening, I really just need to shake the cobwebs out of my brain.
Hi Norma,
Because it’s an AND not an OR. He really values whatever it is between you two AND at the same time he doesn’t value your relationship. Also known as relationship dysfunctionality. Your dream seems pretty straightforward and easily interpretable in that light even to me who does not remember his dreams so has never given much credence to their interpretation.
To Hamlet:
I guess I am not familiar with this. How to reconcile a contradiction like that?
I assume there is no way to do so, which is why I am just throwing up my hands and avoiding him.
Hi Norma, you really deal with contradictions all over so you know how to deal with this. We all do. You either change or work towards changing the situation, accept it but don’t like it, or embrace it. It’s similar to your fashion sense and society at large. You either conform to more traditional clothes, dress the way you like and take the occasional snide remark/glance, or move to where wearing Starry Night shoes is the norm.
To Hamlet:
Starry Night shoes are a lot easier to figure out. I know I mentioned my Salvador Dali shoes, I didn’t realize you knew that I have several pairs of Van Gogh shoes as well?
LO’s comment, while meant as a compliment, really got me thinking. I KNOW I am good to him, I am not being boastful or vain by saying that. I treat him the way I would like him to treat me, but he is not even in the ballpark.
So I ask myself, is he a blessing in MY life? I truly don’t know. He certainly isn’t in terms of being a friend. However, perhaps he is in the sense that he has inadvertently taught me some valuable life lessons.
I do know that expecting anything from him is foolish, and I need to keep my contact with him to a minimum.
Thank you for replying to me.
Honestly Norma I think you have figured it out, you just don’t seem to realize it. First, you crack me up with your shoes. Second, I used to work for a social agency that provided client services. Very limited in what we could provide. The typical client had so many needs, way more needs than what our agency could ever provide at least given our economic system and the culture of our society. Sometimes I’d meet potential clients who didn’t want to apply for services from our agency because it wasn’t worth it, they were only going to get some of their needs met but not all. They had very much an all or nothing view. I’d tell them that they can have that view but what I recommended is that they apply and get what services they could. I was honest and would tell them they wouldn’t get A,B, and C but they could get A. Something is better than nothing. That sounds similarish to how you now see the situation with your LO and I think that is the most realistic expectation you can have for now given NC isn’t really there yet. Maybe in the future you are limerent free but it seems you are making progress.
To Hamlet:
I am glad my shoes crack you up. I have really fallen in love with a brand of shoes called UIN. I am currently wearing a pair entitled “Dance Battle,” which depicts mummies gyrating wildly to music.
Each pair has its own title, so that’s fun.
I totally get the idea of applying for A, B & C and getting A. I’m thrilled with anything. I had been counting on LO to move in September, and am still re-adjusting from the shock of his whole house deal turning into a dumpster fire.
When I think of how far I have come in, say, a year, I realize that my progress is better than I realize. When I think back TWO years, it’s huge. I am moving in the right direction.
Thank you for all your help and your kind words.
Dear Norma
“I treat him the way I would like him to treat me, but he is not even in the ballpark.”
You reminded me of this song I listened to a lot after she left. But I think you might be able to relate to it more than me, possibly.
Hope you are doing well, my dear. I like your resolve of not only try to learn a lesson from him, but also to maintain minimum contact. Not to sound cliche, but as the saying goes “people only treat you by what you tolerate.”
I gave you love, you gave me pain
You gave me hell, you gave me grace
Chase Wright — Wish You’d Miss Me
https://youtu.be/_tHnH6wV8QQ?si=mbK-4xxeXuiaW3-V
To Adam:
Great song, thank you.
I was not familiar with it before. Very powerful lyrics.
Went to the UIN website, love their shoes. Mr Rogers would have been in hog heaven if this existed back in his day.
Norma, they have Hamlet shoes! …even though I really wasn’t named for that character. Unfortunately they don’t show Hamlet, just The Bard. 🤦
Totally forgot about this but back in high school, senior year, I drew cartoon Elvis Presleys on my white leather tennis shoes that I wore. My dad was pissed but didn’t get any real repercussion that I remember anyways.
To Hamlet:
I didn’t see Hamlet although I did see “Midsummer Night’s Dream.”
Very pretty, but too much white. I tend to get dirty easily and avoid white.
I have both the Salvador Dali shoes and the Starry Night shoes with smiley faces.
Still wearing “Dance Battle.” That one cracks me up.
I only buy them when they’re on sale, because they aren’t worth the asking price. They’re just casual slip-ons.
Is there anything there that you would wear? I can’t imagine any man that I have known actually wearing them. And that includes my ex-husband, who had a marvelous sense of humor and wore Grinch slippers that I bought him for Christmas one year.
LO wears drab neutrals and would not be caught dead in any of those shoes, although he gets a kick out of mine.
His feet are too big anyway. I don’t think their sizing system goes past a man’s size 12.
All this talk about shoes got me thinking about how I probably bought 80-90% of the 40 plus pairs of shoes my wife has. Unfortunately (but fortunately because it was the right thing to do) some years ago when she had to have a pin put in her ankle she can’t wear most of, if any of the heels or boots I bought her now. I think about donating them sometimes but they have to many good memories in them. There was these purple/black strapped mary janes that I bought her that I love. She wore them one time when we were visiting my folks in St. Louis when we went to the zoo and all I could think about is …… …… opps gotta go now.
To Adam:
Can your wife not wear heels?
I can’t wear heels, and have no need of them anyway.
That’s why I am so fond of these casual slip-ons with crazy themes and colors.
I would suggest you hang onto the shoes if they bring good memories.
Once they’re gone, you can’t get them back. Although there is something to be said about clearing out old things.
To Hamlet:
I did go take a look at the Hamlet shoes, and I see that they wouldn’t have come up in a search for women’s shoes, because they aren’t available. Even the smallest men’s size would not fit me because I have tiny feet.
Switching over to a pair, don’t know the name, but they look like the famous painting called “American Gothic,” except with cats where the people should be.
Dear Norma
Sadly, for me, not anymore. She mostly wears casual comfortable shoes like you do. Casual slip on or tennis shoes. Sometimes she’ll be wearing them when I get home for work for a bit, for me, but she can’t wear them long before it hurts her ankle.
Most of them are in really good condition, and only been wore a few times, if I had the knowledge to sell them online or to a woman’s used boutique.
I also bought a lot of the nail paint my wife has because I like to paint her nails and toes myself. We probably have 50-60 different colors. I had to end up buying a wall mounted rack on ebay because we accumulated so many. I think the “gunmetal” paint is my favorite one on her. Though I am very partial to shades of purple too. The only one I bought that she never tried was yellow lol
To Adam:
But does your WIFE want to sell the shoes? You didn’t mention her feelings.
Yellow nail polish is hard to pull off. I’d stick to purple.
Norma,
Heck yeah! It’s easier to say what I wouldn’t wear. Not an exact list: but it would have to be authentic to me and who I am, so no messaging, no Indian or Asian themes, don’t like the chunky shoes, no straight line patterns, no checkered, maze, or gingham patterns, no guitar themes, no artist that I’m not into. Essentially they’re a conversation starter, so I have to believe in what I’m wearing. That’s still a lot. Just to give a number that’s like 50% of their offerings. The best way to describe me as far as stuff like this goes is a heterosexual man, 100%, but with some feminine/gay tastes. However, my wife knows not to buy me clothes because she wants to dress me like a young stereotype of what a gay man should dress like. To be fair to her, the men’s fashion industry, being what it is, does lean in that direction. When I dress up, I want every community to want me! 😂 I’m size 11.5 US men’s so I guess I’m just under the wire.
So why I won’t buy any just yet… First they’re crazy expensive. I’m pseudo retired but I work on my multiple houses. I do a lot. I’m pretty bad at the Mr Rogers changing outfits thing. I actually made a landing and bench at the garage entrance to my house to be able to mimic him but still I’m not good at it. I’ve ruined so many clothes/shoes. My wife is always commenting on my “dirty clothes”. They’re not dirty, just stained from paint, caulk, grease, etc… work. I have “dirty clothes”, “clean clothes”, and dress clothes. Yesterday I had to work on a coolant leak on my truck and then get a gas fireplace going for her client. That’s typical. I’m gonna get dirty. It does get me out of stuff because if I’m in my”clean clothes” and didn’t bring my”dirty clothes” to work in, them I’d love to fix XYZ but I’m sorry, I can’t. If I was a billionaire and doing nothing but cultural travels and dining, not touching anything like work, no yardwork, nothing, I’d buy one of everything I like. They have to be worn to a specific occasion, or matching what I felt like wearing that day. Of course I wear plain clothes, plain solids too.
To Hamlet:
I understand your points and your dilemma.
The shoes ARE hand-washable, so a lot of stuff comes out. I have been pretty successful at keeping mine clean.
I find most of mine on eBay for about $30. For that price, I don’t feel guilty.
I just switched into what I think is my favorite pair, Art du Vin (look it up).
I am also unburdened by worrying about matching. My shoes today are coupled with loud socks depicting inflatable swimming pool toys.
My blouse is multi-colored dragon scales.
I can get away with it at my age.
eBay, ok that looks promising I’ll have to look into that.
ArtduVin are beautiful. My favorite are Van Gogh Sunflowers or Sunflowers with Cat.
To Hamlet:
I have the Van Gogh Sunflowers with the dark blue background.
I also have a Van Gogh with sunflowers in a vase with a smiley face over the flowers.
My favorites are still Art du Vin and Flowing Time, which is the Salvador Dali picture.
Since I don’t have to worry about matching anything, I can just go crazy.
To Hamlet:
Here ya go.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/296872258959?_skw=UIN+men%27s+shoes&itmmeta=01KAP5QH3XW0B3EC7A9PC5E0C7&hash=item451ef72d8f:g:fSgAAOSwh1NnWHkm&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA0FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1czknkoiMdK2JVu5dzK2Lel6QfUg%2BYOGX9Z%2FDWLxrJMB0KpuknIkdvzJe7rdgLqs%2BDrRDFR4fo6g43L2KZpaos8v9sCuS9N0sYGrOXoncSJxPGpa4ZipBw6vgIIx4pyZaAiMFzLlQGKkkANYAkZamhtYopUs6LBgS%2FaA%2BqGJ7VoOcSwsXjfaeEHbRGvx4GpwjC%2BkDoqnnGJ5AcE%2FaJx3NQPGP22X5P8O6YUCys5E0yy%2FnO%2F1azjEvTxWGy6B%2BEpcxc%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5iS3sXVZg
Hi Norma, 😂 I ordered a pair earlier this morning before you sent the link. But I didn’t tell you that I preferred the white background and that’s what I ordered. Now after seeing them again with your link, I’m not so sure. BUT, I haven’t used eBay in a while so I used the wrong card when I purchased … I immediately cancelled the order to place a new order with the correct card and now I’m in online purchasing limbo waiting until Monday to hear back from anyone. It will all work out I’m sure. Anyway, thanks for the link and thinking of me. It is sweet of you. But after I got dressed I said to myself, those shoes would go with these pants and they’re only 30 dollars.
To Hamlet:
I am glad you found something you like.
I really don’t understand the prices. I have a pair of boots called Ripple San Diego which retail for $325, and are on “sale” for $260.
I got them on eBay for about $45, and I like them fine. I only wear them when it rains, and it hardly ever rains here. So I wear them maybe 5 times a year. Which is fine. But I can’t imagine paying that much for them.
The clothes and shoes conversation is fun. I just looked up UIN shoes. They look really fun!
Adam, painting your wife’s nails and taking an interest in her shoes sounds damn sexy. But Norma is very observant she asks whether her feelings come into it at all.
My SO has no interest in clothes or shoes. They are purely functional for him. It’s quite nice that I can where whatever the hell I like and he neither notices nor cares, but on the other hand I would love it if he could notice and compliment me just occasionally.
Mila
Adam
After a very long time, and after a glass of whisky, I dropped by. I will not be coming back for so many reasons. I scanned this tranche of messages, however. You are both very special kind people and you will always have a place in my heart.
I am now no longer limerent. A distant memory. It looks as if you, Adam, may have been through some ‘stuff’. If so, I’m sorry.
Take care. With love,
frederico x x
f,
I know your message is not to me, so forgive me for replying as I am so pleased to see your name pop up unexpectedly.
I am very fond of you and have wondered how you are.
So I am very happy to read that you are no longer limerent. I wish you much peace and happiness.
My very best wishes,
xx
A very kind message IMHO. I remember you too, of course. Yes, limerence really can fade, given time. So many thanks are due to you, Dr L and others. My obsession has faded and there was a time when that would have seemed impossible. Patience and distraction – I feel humbled and rather more experienced now.
x
f,
“patience and distraction” yes these are my tactics too.
It takes the time that it takes I guess.
Glad you got to the end goal.
Me and Mila have commented that we visualise you happy holidaying at a fancy hotel by the sea.
x
Hi frederico ,
I‘m so happy to hear from you!!
How are you, how’s the blood sugar;)? Had a rare glass of wine myself!
And so good to hear that limerence is a distant memory for you. I‘ll be there in not too much distant future, I hope, it’s already a memory instead of a vexing presence.
You are are one of the few people here that will always stay in my mind/ heart. I do hope so much that you are well and having a good life.
Yes, Imho and me pictured you strolling elegantly along some beach. If it’s true or not, I’m sure whatever you do, you‘ll do it elegantly.
Lots of hugs and love to you.
and of course, a
x
To Frederico:
I don’t know you, but I am thrilled to hear from someone who has come out on the other side.
This is very encouraging to me, and I appreciate the fact that you have come back and made this comment.
Frederico
Good to hear from you my friend. I understand your disappearing again. I’d like to selfishly make a case for you to stay …. Glad to hear that the limerence has left you and you are at peace with it. Mine still gets me from time to time, but things have changed in my (our, the family’s) life that has been positive that I seem to not want to ruminate as much, since I have other concerns. The “stuff” is only on the surface limerence related. The roots are somewhere else, and that is something that is being worked on.
You will always be in my heart, my friend. Not someone I will ever, or ever want to forget. Now go out there and get you a man that can be what LO couldn’t. 🙂
Your friend as always, Adam
That’s awesome, Frederico! Very happy for you.
Patience and distractions are my mantras as well. Hope to see you on the other side soon!
Postures of Devotion
Kimberly Blaeser
—after Kaveh Akbar’s “Poetry and Spirituality”
Before me Kawishiwi stretches—
river a palette of frost. Nearby
glazed berries dot the cranberry bushes,
melt into mirage. Icicles
too drip remembrance.
But metaphors of a world asleep
fail this place where even now
a pileated woodpecker beats a rhythm
of search—repeats, day by day deeper.
Watch while the leafless oak opens.
Beneath the protective skin
of tree, more hard-shelled beings—
bark beetles, exoskeletons of ants.
Hear the purr of wings landing,
jarring rattle as head recites hunger.
Watch the red blur of devotion—
manic as our soul, our alone.
Yet steadily each body maps resilience.
Where survival turns with planet,
chases the sun, wait is a courage
we name winter. Beneath ice
mink, muskrat, and otter swim,
stalk sleek shadows of fish.
Woodland dwellers find feast each season—
oh despair, make that your gospel.
Still, forest grandmothers—all roots
trunks and limbs—uphold their pact.
In rhythm of warm days and freezing
nights, tree roots suction, sap spills
through bark wounds. Then our tongues
sticky with spring—then, our song.
But, in January, we hold this promise.
While lake ice shifts, dark a murmur,
a creak. Now moonlight falls on snow crusts—
always where two touch, night glistens.
When distant wolf howls, answer comes.
Imagine the upturned muzzle, body
a triangle of sound. Hazel eyes
mere slits. This reverence—an ancient hunger
for pack. See, too, each black branch
limbing—bare, suspended in soon.
How pristine the listening posture
of pine marten, of fisher, of fox—
each body cocked. To pounce, to dive
nose-first into snow’s secrets,
to search winter tunnels for mice.
We, too, poised like supplicants—
rawness of the world a prayer
we read but cannot speak. Silence
an invocation, heavy as tobacco
sinking into snow—into earth’s altar.
Against moon’s brilliance, slit your eyes.
Let warmth of reflected light fill you;
that holy—that glance of tiny gods.
Make of your hands an empty globe,
your body a vessel taut as river.
Poem Number Two on Bell’s Theorem,
or The New Physicality of Long Distance Love
June Jordan
1936 –2002
There is no chance that we will fall apart
There is no chance
There are no parts.
The Bells
Edgar Allan Poe
I.
Hear the sledges with the bells—
Silver bells!
What a world of merriment their melody foretells!
How they tinkle, tinkle, tinkle,
In the icy air of night!
While the stars that oversprinkle
All the heavens, seem to twinkle
With a crystalline delight;
Keeping time, time, time,
In a sort of Runic rhyme,
To the tintinabulation that so musically wells
From the bells, bells, bells, bells,
Bells, bells, bells—
From the jingling and the tinkling of the bells.
My favorite writers are Edgar Allen Poe, Charles Bulowski, Harlan Ellison, Fredriche Nietzsehe. Look up Ellison’s I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream. Most chilling and horrific thing ever put to print. But a possible chilling forewarning of AI in the present.
🎩 🥃 ,
I never heard of Marian Ellison until you mentioned him today. I’m not particularly fond of Allen Poe, whose work I found insightfully dark. I resonated with his sentimentality and views, but didn’t want to be constantly reminded of dark sides of humanity by reading his work.
Nietzsche heavily influenced my teenage and induced my first depression/melancholy at age of 13. Back then in COO, I found his extreme individuality or “narcissism” and his will/discipline to climb alone to the peak of a mountain — breathing socially/ideologically unpolluted, pure air, was so fascinating and liberating (remember my environment was the harsh communistic oppression like in 1984).
After coming here to read further Nietzsche’s work, I understand better his Übermensch.
AI quote:
“Nietzsche viewed art as a crucial, life-affirming force, essential for navigating a meaningless world by providing meaning and coping with suffering. He famously articulated the balance between the Apollonian (rational, orderly, and beautiful) and the Dionysian (chaotic, emotional, and instinctual) drives, seeing tragedy as the highest art form that integrates both. Art, in his view, allows humanity to create “beautiful illusions” and represent the triumph over adversity, making life bearable and even worth living. “
“Look up Ellison’s I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream. Most chilling and horrific thing ever put to print. But a possible chilling forewarning of AI in the present.”
I looked it up, it’s an ugly image. I see AI’s both beneficial and dangerous functions, just like wealth, power, and popularity. Using AI cautiously as a tool/assistant, NOT a Master, for a specific purpose can be time and energy saving. Human designers have final means in controlling AI’s behaviors, without giving AI ultimate power to make decisions for us.
Regardless poets’ personal or cultural background, I enjoy reading poems of all kinds with images and illusions they verbally paint… their sentimentalities and mentalities are so rich and subtly colorful like endless, river-flowing sympathies….
I posted on another thread about inadvertently stumbling onto LO’s Instagram picture when signing up this afternoon. I avoid social media, but a friend of mine wanted me to see something on Instagram, so I had to sign up in order to watch it.
I was put off by LO’s photograph, because he is smiling at the camera in a way that I don’t recognize. I have never actually seen him smile that way and had trouble believing that it was actually him. I had a similar experience when he used a certain tone of voice on the phone when he called a mutual friend of ours in my presence. He had a soft, conciliatory tone of voice that he never uses with me.
This is all very disconcerting, even though it helps me with my limerence problem. It seems to me as if LO has a whole other friendly, kindly persona that I am not allowed to see.
I was also pondering something I have been thinking about–what life lessons has LO taught me? And I think the biggest one is this: LO is gorgeous looking, very healthy, smart as a whip, and renowned in his field. He makes an excellent living. His house is to die for.
These are all things that I think would make me happy if *I* had them. Yet LO is one of the angriest people I have ever met.
That is something to mull over.
Hello Norma, and others. I read your message and much of it resonated with my LE.
On some occasions in the past, I saw LO behavior and my observation was that she was more talkative with other people, both on social media, and off it, than she was with me. She always seemed to be “measured” with me. To be honest, it made me jealous.
Then, of course, my limerent mind went into all these theories that LO is playing with me and manipulating me. To this day, I am not sure whether that was/is the case, but now with the passage of time, I’ve come to realise that it does not really matter what LO does, or how LO acts. Its not in my hand anyway.
Perhaps we are making progress in our LEs and the limerence fog is lifting slowly but surely, allowing us to see our LOs as regular people?
All the best.
To ABCD:
Thank you for your comments. I have never felt that LO was manipulating me at all, but I did get a sense of jealousy, insofar as I felt that he was saving his “best” personality for others and giving me the Mr. Grinch persona instead.
Who knows if it’s true, and as you said, it doesn’t matter. But looking at LO’s picture and listening to his gentle tone of voice used with our mutual friend, it gave me the impression that he can’t be bothered to treat me as well as he treats others.
I guess I should be grateful for the Grinch treatment–it will be much easier to completely extricate myself in the long run.
Hello Norma.
“I guess I should be grateful for the Grinch treatment–it will be much easier to completely extricate myself in the long run”.
Yes, I was going to say this. In the past, I found it hard or impossible to think negatively about LO, and this made it hard for me to move on. Now, I feel LO’s halo is dimming in my mind, so I am finding it easier to move ahead.
Hope I am making sense.
To ABCD:
You make perfect sense. As painful as the whole experience is, it’s best in the long run to be able to clearly see flaws and negative behavior.
I don’t ever want to make excuses for LO.
Hi ABCD,I saw this maybe 10 years ago with my SO at a gay party. She was joking, funny, no wonder they loved her. With me all serious grumpy business. Years later I was listening to a podcast and the host mentioned this same situation your if situation (no gay party 😂 that’s just where I noticed it). There was an article I read on this later (once I notice something the universe seems to send it to me in spades) and it’s a common enough thing. It is what it is, the reasons can be rather complicated. Obviously, if it’s a SO you can improve the situation, LO…nope.
Norma, your situation seems a tad different. You know nothing about social media and please keep it that way. People present their best often/mostly unreal selves on it, including using AI to make their photos look better, younger, etc. It’s a strange world. FOMO fear of missing out is a real thing on social media. As texting was to your limmerence, social media will be to your super charged limmerence.
To Hamlet:
I know that you are right based on what I have heard from others.
I have a terrible case of FOMO anyway, and if I got on social media, I wouldn’t be able to cope.
I am very envious and feel like I have missed out on many things due to health limitations. Of course, as I mentioned in a previous post, LO has all of the things I wish *I* had, and he’s unhappier than I am.
I’m just going to go hang out with my shoes now. Wearing Popsicle Time, if you’re interested. They always make me smile.
Thanks for your message, Hamlet. Yes, you are right, the reasons can be complicated. By nature, I am an introvert, also socially ackward, I would say to some extent. Though, on the plus side, I seem to be handling social interactions where LO is present better than I used to.
Ideally, I would like no LO interaction, but since this is not happening, I am just hoping the ones that I have, do not make me too sad. So far I am doing good on this front.
Cheers.
Alice
Samuel Alfred Beadle
Tomorrow’s but a dream, dear Alice,
In truth, it never appears;
The past, a tenantless old palace,
Where hope lies tombed in tears;
The urn is broken, Alice,
Whence incense rose above;
But you may see, if you will, today,
The magical haunts of love.
My fancy sees a chalice,
A harp all strung, attuned,
A famed, enchanted palace,
Where Cupid oft communed;
The theme of his dreaming, Alice,
In waking or sleeping the same,
A glory that ever dazzles,
Till it sets the soul a-flame.
Like the burning bush on Horeb,
Or lit phosphoric seas,
The dream is metamorphosed,
And Cupid makes wild pleas,
For a glance of your dark eyes, Alice,
And a touch of your lips, my dear,
For all the bliss of caressing,
Laughter, and song, and cheer.
’Tis to you and none other, Alice,
My thought reverts in its flight,
A little perhaps out of ballas’,
Perhaps with too much delight;
So crude, so humble and callous
That a message it scarce can bear,
From a heart that wears your image,
And the passion that fixed it there.
Come thou with me, dear Alice,
To where there’s building for thee
A loved, charmed, magical palace,
Hard by the Mexic sea;
Where date, and spice and lemon
Doth blow perpetually,
By that enchanted palace
That looks out over the sea.
Tomorrow? That’s cruel, Alice,
Why speak of a day that is not?
That spoils the bliss of living,
Makes mine a miserable lot,
And love’s enchanted palace
A wild and desolate place;
No land of dates and flowers
Wert blessed without thy grace.
I want to completely change the subject and bring up something that happened yesterday. I was visiting a neighbor who lives across the street from LO, who I have known for at least ten years.
Last spring, her next-door neighbor was hit by a car as he was loading surfboards into his truck to take his family surfing. He was critically injured, but survived.
It has been exactly six months since the injury, and the man has just come home from rehab, although the family moved from the house they were living in. They are nearby, but I don’t know exactly where.
I am not sure about his condition or his prognosis. His brother did post video of the man taking tentative steps with the help of his physical therapist. He looked to be in pretty bad shape.
My neighbor was shockingly candid with me. She said, “Why didn’t they just let him go?” I was startled by her comment and said, “Well, I don’t think they can legally or morally do that, can they?”
He has a young family–I am sure his wife and children would rather have him around. His mind seems to be okay, although, as I said, I don’t know the prognosis for recovery.
I was troubled by her comments, although I understood the sentiment. I myself have severe health limitations, and I ask myself all the time, what constitutes a worthwhile or meaningful life.
What a strange comment, and totally uncalled for!
I’m all for people to have the choice to access assisted dying if that’s what they really want, but it’s only ever going to be a tiny number of people in genuinely unusually distressing circumstances, and not an idea to be brought up by anyone else.
I’m sorry it’s troubled you. People say the strangest things.
But your last paragraph is an interesting one. It’s important to find meaning in life. A limerent episode is one of those things that forces us to examine this, and finding it is (hopefully) the key to freedom from limerence.
To Miss Cloud:
After I posted that, I recollected when Christopher Reeve had his horrible accident, and I read that his mother wanted to pull the plug before he woke up but his wife Dana said, no, let him wake him and HE can decide.
Although I am not sure if you legally have the option anymore once you wake up? I really don’t understand how any of that works.
To Miss Cloud:
Forgot to say, speaking of finding meaning in life, another neighbor texted me and asked my permission for his teenage son to interview me for a school project on the topic of “resilience.”
My neighbor said I was the most resilient person he knows. It’s a good thing he couldn’t see the look on my face. I AM NOT RESILIENT.
I agreed reluctantly. I felt like an imposter, still do, because their perception of me is not accurate. They insisted I come by and sit for a photograph, even though I looked terribly derpy that day.
I ran into that neighbor right after I saw the OTHER neighbor in my story above and I asked, “When is your son going to interview me?” And his dad said, oh, he’s just going with what I told him. The paper is done.
I felt annoyed. I don’t believe the father’s impressions of me are accurate, and he conveyed them third-hand to his son. I doubt that I would recognize the person in the finished paper.
On the other hand, it’s just a kid’s homework project, and he obviously doesn’t want to put any effort into it.
But you got me thinking about that story when we were talking about finding meaning in life. I sort of got a sensation of being able to contribute something when the dad asked me to sit for an interview. Then the whole thing dissolved when I realized that they didn’t really want to interview me at all.
I know it’s only a school project, but really, I don’t like the idea of two men (or at least one man and one boy) taking a picture of a woman for their project about her, but not allowing the woman to contribute any of her own words. Women should be seen and not heard. From a feminist perspective, it stinks.
To Miss Cloud:
That’s a good point. And here’s one more. Dad is not teaching his son anything by not insisting that his son interview me.
The project is to identify and interview a resilient person. Instead, they scraped together the few details they know about me (we’re not close), and slapped a project together.
A bit sloppy, in my opinion. The photograph is of me sitting on lawn chairs with other family members, playing with their dog, so hopefully it’s not too awful.
Honestly, now that I think about it, the most meaningful talk the dad and I have had was comparing colonoscopy results! We share the same gastroenterologist, so there’s that.
Discovered LwL several months back. It was a welcome difference from the Algorithm feeding me constant, “win back your ex” or “how to tell if she really likes you” irrelevance.
I’m a classic limerant case – married, much younger LO, struggling at times with it all.
Have been NC for 6mths (I was ghosted) – it was nominally a client-services relationship so I feel some kind of way about it – was there ever really anything there? That I didn’t pay for I mean.
Sometimes I feel in control. Other times I’m sorely tempted to break NC, or even just look up socials, etc. – I did that once and it was intensely painful, sparking shame and jealousy.
I disclosed to LO and that’s when everything went sideways. Months later I shared with SO and just like my therapist said it would, it helped. On the relationship side and also for myself – I had been unable to keep beating myself up and also hiding the reasons behind it.
On paper I feel like I’ve made progress. But my stupid limerant brain keeps fighting against it and inviting me down garden paths that lead to misery. On paper I think I was cringe – and in my heart I believe it. But stupid keeps trying to invent / re-write history to explain away red flags and somehow make me out as the victim, or the hero, or anything but the likely truth: sad old man fell for the oldest trick in the book.
I struggle between resulting shame and embarrassment of dwelling on the reality, and trying to mitigate those so that I can just get through my days without being obsessed. I fully understand it’s not really about LO; it’s about me and what I was, or am, missing / needing / wanting. Unfortunately most of those things are inseparable from giving LO power over me. Their regard, validation, whether they would deign to message, etc.
I’ve also worked on myself (of course it began as a way to impress / connect with LO) but it continues independently from that. I’m in the best shape of my life, I have so much going for me.
Seeing some comments / experiences here that refer to years and years of unresolved LE is daunting.
To In Training:
I am probably one of the slowest, clumsiest people here.
I am about three-quarters of the way out of my limerence after two-and-a-half years. I am still in pain, but it is much less severe than it was, say, a year ago. Two years ago, it was impossible.
I don’t know if that’s encouraging or not; I do remember Dr. Tom mentioning a case of limerence that went on for many decades.
I am delighted to be as far along as I am. Reading and posting here has been tremendously helpful.
Some people seem to get through it in a matter of weeks, but I don’t know how to do that. I am more of a plodder.
I hope you can find some help and encouragement here.
To Norma:
Thanks for all that. I feel like I plod as well! I agree with you also though, there is good progress being made. I do notice I feel much better now than I did at peak LE, some 6mths ago. I have never participated in contributing to a blog before although I have read lots. Initially I thought it would make me feel too vulnerable, but that’s kind of the whole point. I am glad to hear it’s been helpful to you.
A matter of weeks to move on? I do not have that particular set of skills!
To In Training:
When I get discouraged, I think back to how I was doing a year ago, and I marvel at how far I have come. I do think this website has helped tremendously. I came here around Valentine’s Day, so about nine months so far.
If you don’t feel comfortable posting, then I hope you can keep reading.
Good luck on your journey, from a fellow plodder.
I really enjoyed this website and having the chance to communicate with some of you. I didn’t want to just leave without saying goodbye. Norma, I am getting at least one pair of those shoes. Honest. Whatever you envision of me, envision him with those shoes. My Brothers, stay strong and fun. I’d normally say to stay limerent free but you guys seem to like it too much to allow me to think that is a real possibility. That’s OK. 😂🪇 Marcia, I really have nothing to say…😂😂😂. On second thought, I was being totally honest that you were self-aware and that is rare and you should be proud. But…Not sure that you are aware that every time you put down MJ, you are really putting down yourself. Just like the Sarah Silverman character is doing when she confronts Margot during the arrest scene and actually first during the long naked (yeah excessive) shower scene. She’s really talking to herself. She is a person who herself wants to find passion, who recognizes much too quickly what Margot is doing, but chooses passive abandonment over active abandonment. Only she doesn’t talk to herself by bursting out in soliloquy as in a Shakespeare play but talks to herself through accusing Margot. A twisted version of the Jesus, “He who is without sin…” speech. Anyway, watching that movie and analyzing it through LE was fun. I wish we could have done more of that. Emotional Stoic, you actually tried to change for the better in the short time I knew you. Truly, that was nice to see. I caught it if nobody else did. To everyone else, have a safe and happy holiday season and I hope your limerence journeys are successful. If you feel the need to leave comments to this, good or bad, I won’t see them. Just as if you were communicating with a non responsive LE. I wouldn’t bother.
Well, I bother: goodbye and all the best to you!
I don’t know why he left or why he won’t bother checking here….But fare thee well, Hamlet! 🙂
Oh, dear Hamlet, I will miss you!
Think of me when you wear your Van Gogh shoes.
Wishing you peace of mind.
There is a lot more to think about beyond the three topics in the title
Alain de Botton’s of Al therapy, cultural Christianity & polite political debates —
https://youtu.be/7emyPzP6KHI?si=dqlJfngCAbGeKMp6
In the Woods of Language, She Collects Beautiful Sticks
Valzhyna Mort
like a snail with a shell of sticks
— she loads them on her back —
Like a camel with a hump of sticks
— on her back, on her back —
Like a horse with a knight of sticks and a stick for a sword
Where is she taking this load of sticks?
— on her hump, on her hump —
She has no house, where is she taking the house she doesn’t have?
— in the fire she is taking it in the fire —
In the fire she is making a poem entirely out of sticks on fire and it goes like this
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The Psychology of People Who Love Staying at Home —
https://youtu.be/vofPn74xpRI?si=TsYOWNIDcS5qZmif
This really sounds like a renewed ❄️ becoming… 🤔 😊 (Still in bed on Thanksgiving Day giving thanks that the Galaxy could hear… ☺️ )
Harvard Neuroscientist: The Fascinating New Science of Dreams — Dr. Baland Jalal
https://youtu.be/ri83A7gnYHw?si=OBsbDwkxEy6qCCpn
🥂 Miss Marcia,
I’m moving our chats here.
“I don’t really travel by myself but I have moved places where I knew no one.”
As an Asian (the majority are gregarious), I never liked the idea of traveling alone exploring the untrodden world. Then, living and working in a highly liberal city, I worried that I’d be seen as un-independent. One of my ex-bosses (an aspiring painter) “bragged” her sole traveling experiences, so I began doing it after divorce and wanted to see how I’d feel by doing that in safer places like Western European countries. I never liked it, despite the freedom I had or date invitations thrown to me in public— went only one with a 22 yrs sweet/cute American boy after his world-traveler birthday party I participated; I turned down his “naked” offer in the most exotic setting… I’m not that romantically adventurous, although it’s fascinating to observe and superficially meet people of all sorts 😉
I’d never move to a place where I know no one. As a single-child and was thrown to that weekcare for two years, I think I know more than anyone here about possible “horrors” of being alone physically.
“His character in “Phantom Thread” kind of reminded me of an ex-semi LO from years ago. Hard to figure out, seductive. I suspect he had some of those controlling tendencies as well. If you’re hanging out with him, he’s the one making the rules. So I found the movie interesting.”
I’d never get into the dynamic with that kind of Macho, controlling men, who makes the rules! I could sense it beforehand.
“Did you meet these guys in person? And you could tell from their reactions/behavior toward you they weren’t glimmering?:
Yes, at the beginning of app dating, I’d try those “maybe” guys, and they proved that my intuition was right. LO5’s photo was striking, exuding an “suffering” artist’s aura, then my glimmer of 1st 5 seconds (from across the street) was sympathy based (his eyes did not sparkle like LO#1, 4, 7), not admiration or adoration. I was never able to cultivate that Glimmer with him through years.
“You mean your glimmer didn’t last longer than 6 months?”
Yes, the shortest one was 1 month, and the longest 6 months. I knew them as classmate or colleague before the strange “Bottom” glimmer suddenly took a place through a dream 😴, so weird and ridiculous!
“That sounds like the ex-semi LO I referenced above. Accomplished but a narc. Oh, the spinning plates of women he had going on at the same time. I’d never seen anything like it at the time and haven’t since.”
Yes, he’s the most charismatic and flamboyant potential “LO” I’ve encountered; young women in his arms were beautiful and highly educated and he had a house in an Italy Rivera. But I resisted the pull despite we were both divorced and available. I followed my logical mind and intuition.
“Are you talking about the movie with Ben Barnes? How could you take your eyes off of Colin Firth? 🙂 I’ve read the book. I love Oscar Wilde.:
Colin Firth is never my idol, Lady Marcia! 😊. His face is too round for me, unlike Huge Grant or Daniel Day-Lewis or Jeremy irons. Ben Barnes looked more attractive than Firth in the movie. But the aging painting is so disturbing. I love Oscar Wilde’s wits, so accurately penetrating!
“So if you’re not looking for the glimmer to indicate your interest to you, what are you looking for?”
We talked about this before. Without Glimmer 7 or above, I’d behave like an air-leaking ballon. NO more “maybe” guys. I’d be looking for personality traits, level of genuine curiosity and openness to all matters in life, kindness… and of course, the reciprocity — absolutely no more chasing/hanging around unavailable men. I’m too selfish to waste my limited time on the earth.
“She’s gorgeous. But there’s no way she hasn’t had work done.”
I don’t know about that, but her postures and walks have elegance; I wish all Grandmas look and walk like that, regardless wrinkled face. I haven’t read about her life story in details, except a short YT talking about her healthy diet, light yoga, and daily walks. You know she lost her life saving to Bernard Madoff’s Ponzi scheme? which shows that she’s not wise enough — put all eggs in one basket.
I really admire Helen Mirren. She’s attractive, but it’s her confidence. Rapper 50 Center has openly talked about his crush on her. And he’s 30 years younger than she is. I love him. 🙂”
Yes, confidence in women makes them more attractive than just appearance (something about Mirren is not that sweet but tough? 🤔). I admire Jodie Forster a, who looks prettier and more intelligent. I don’t know who Rapper 50 Center is, did he pursue his crush on Mirren? How did she respond?
” From an interview two years ago, she said she’s done with dating. Has no interest in getting naked with someone.”
That means she still dated up to 85 years old, I can’t imagine it, unless the other side is also a senior 😰.
“I might be flattered but I wouldn’t marry someone 24 years younger. That age difference will eventually bite you in the butt. Whether it’s an older woman/younger man or younger woman/older man.”
Well, the French First Lady and Macron seem to be doing fine. I just googled her children this morning and found out that Macron is 2 years younger than his first step-son, the same age as the 2nd, and briefly “fathered” her daughter who is only 7 years younger. They got married 8 years after her independent divorce with her banker husband, which is included in his 15 years of waiting to cash his promise-deposit. Like Napoleon, there would be Only one Macron!
For me, one’s mental and emotional age/maturity in a marriage is the way more important than one’s physical age/appearance. I don’t have an absolute rule on chronological age, and I was always a quiet rebel against some cultural scripts in my own ways in the both world… 😶
If the glimmer existed and he were available, I would have considered to date a 24 yrs senior man whose spirit is very curious, open-minded, energetic and romantic. He’s a limerent and I was his “LO”. I unofficially went out with that 24 yrs younger colleague who speaks my mother tongue, but I also had no glimmer. In addition, he wanted to 5 children! 😨
“This is very interesting to me. I never would have thought that.”
COO has tons of ridiculous superstitions based on monophonies of words and conceptions, e.g. you can’t give pears as gifts to your dates or friends, because “pear” sounds exactly like “separation”; number 4 sounds death, so there is no 4th, 14th, 44th floor in some buildings and absolutely no #4, #14 table in high end restaurants. Whitish dishes (Tofu) can’t be served in wedding banquet, since White is mourning color; and red dishes (cooked with Soy Sauce) can’t be served in funeral meals, because Red is a celebration color…. The list goes on and on… 🙄
Happy Thanksgiving, INFP Sis‼️ 🫂
“How about if you’re going through a drive-thru at a fast-food restaurant and there’s an unhoused person nearby. If you offer to buy them a meal (a whole meal, not part of one), is that considered rude?”
That would be considered a true kindness❗️
AI:
“Carmen Dell’Orefice has openly discussed having plastic surgery and cosmetic procedures to help maintain her appearance over the years. She has stated that she uses facial fillers and has undergone other procedures like liposuction and breast augmentation, viewing them as a way to “repair” the effects of aging, similar to fixing a falling-down ceiling.”
“Jane Fonda has openly discussed her history of plastic surgery, which includes breast implants, two facelifts, and procedures on her chin, neck, and under her eyes. She has stated she is not proud of all of her procedures and has stopped getting them because she doesn’t want to look distorted, though she has said she is not entirely against them”.
“Helen Mirren has publicly stated that she has not had plastic surgery, attributing her appearance to common sense, a healthy lifestyle, and aging gracefully. However, she has admitted to having some procedures to enhance her look. “
Acknowledged procedures: Mirren confirmed she has undergone a thread lift, a minimally invasive procedure, and has had her eyebrows microbladed.
Snow,
I’m not negating how good these ladies look, regardless of what they’ve had done. They all look great. They still have to take care of themselves. Exercise, diet, skin care.
Here’s 50 Cent (it’s 50 Cent, not 50 Center, that was typo) on Helen Mirren:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/vZ0_YxDm4xY
I don’t know why Brigitte Macron is even entertaining this nonsense.
Miss Marcia,
50 Cent is indeed cute! I enjoy seeing Steven Colbert’s stunning expression after being suddenly kissed 💋! She did it so gracefully and naturally 👏. She’s one actress who looks more attractive than her youth 👍!
I guess French pay more attention to their reputation or unwritten expectations (one reason why my French professor fled Paris and settled 3 blocks away from me).
Aesthetically, I think Macron looks better than his wife, who does look somewhat more masculine than feminine. But it matters ALL if he is so much into her… why did the whole world frown upon them⁉️
My mother suddenly got fever, so we have to push hot pot to tomorrow, which is uncertain 🤨 …. so I’ll grade a pile of exams, laundry, workout, piano, reading… never have enough time… 😕
Are you getting ready to go out?
Miss Snow,
“50 Cent is indeed cute!”
Isn’t he? I’m not a huge fan of his music. I like about 2 songs. But once I started seeing him on the talk shows … he is charming as s**t. I bet the women are lined up. 🙂
” I enjoy seeing Steven Colbert’s stunning expression after being suddenly kissed 💋! She did it so gracefully and naturally 👏.”
As both 50 and Stephen say … she knows what she’s doing. 🙂 This is what I meant by having charisma. Time doesn’t take that away.
“She’s one actress who looks more attractive than her youth 👍!”
I don’t agree. She’s still really attractive but she was attractive when she was young as well.
“Aesthetically, I think Macron looks better than his wife”
I mean, yeah. She’s got 24 years on him.
“But it matters ALL if he is so much into her… why did the whole world frown upon them⁉️”
You keep bringing this up. 🙂 I do think it’s a weird, but I guess if it’s working for them. I don’t have a dog in this fight. 🙂
“My mother suddenly got fever, so we have to push hot pot to tomorrow, which is uncertain ”
I hope she feels better. Can’t you and the other people in the party get together without her? I mean, if she’ s not feeling better by tomorrow.
“Are you getting ready to go out?”
My event is on Saturday.
Miss Marcia,
50 Cent is indeed charming… But Mirren’s youthful look is not confident enough and had that longing, to my eyes. She looks much more confident and graceful nowadays, despite her age.
“ You keep bringing this up. 🙂 I do think it’s a weird, but I guess if it’s working for them. I don’t have a dog in this fight. 🙂”
Because you said, “ I don’t know why Brigitte Macron is even entertaining this nonsense.” So I answered why they had to deal with a right-wing socialite gossips through a US court. 😃
Personally, I don’t think their union is weird, but just extraordinarily unusual — out of a fairytale 🤔 No ordinary man has that guts, it’s entirely his call especially when handsome him turned to 30 and could possibly have any young woman should he have desired… Maybe he had an ambition to beat Napoleon… 😆
My own place is not big enough to have a hot pot party for more than 3. Mom says that we could still go to her place tomorrow and she’d just rest in her bedroom if she continues feeling bad.
I’ve got 12 different hot-pot ingredients stored in her refrigerator, and drinks… 🍷
Well, have a nice, relaxed day to yourself if you stay in! I may chat with you later (I have to hand wash my canvas sneakers 👟 🥴 )….
Miss Snow,
“But Mirren’s youthful look is not confident enough and had that longing, to my eyes. he looks much more confident and graceful nowadays, despite her age.”
She was a bombshell when she was young. In some movie (and I can’t remember which one) when she was young, she was buck naked, which takes a lot of guts to do. However, when she was 58, she was naked in “The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone.” I love it! Confidence!
“Because you said, “ I don’t know why Brigitte Macron is even entertaining this nonsense.” So I answered why they had to deal with a right-wing socialite gossips through a US court. 😃”
I was referring to your ongoing defense of their relationship in general. I don’t really have a dog in the fight. When I said I don’t understand why they are even entertaining this nonsense, I was referring to her defense of her gender.
“Personally, I don’t think their union is weird, but just extraordinarily unusual — out of a fairytale 🤔 ”
I just don’t see it like that. Maybe because I’m the age she was when they married, and there’s no way I’d marry a 30-year-old man.
“Mom says that we could still go to her place tomorrow and she’d just rest in her bedroom if she continues feeling bad.”
I hope you get a chance to cook your food and have people enjoy it.
Miss Marcia,
“She was a bombshell when she was young. In some movie (and I can’t remember which one) when she was young, she was buck naked, which takes a lot of guts to do. “
I haven’t watched much Mirren’s earlier movie, but liked her “older” role. My impression is from her internet photos. I’m not fond of/used to seeing women’s naked bodies in the big screen.
“However, when she was 58, she was naked in “The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone.” I love it! Confidence!”
I actually saw that movie by accident, in which I remembered she’s calling that young Gigolo on the balcony, he was stalking her with his burning eyes. Was she naked at all in the movie❓ I thought that some American aging women really have a quite appetite in young dude…. As you know, I’m not a fan of casual sex (turned down many youthful offers), but meaningful love-making in a relationship… 😃
“I was referring to your ongoing defense of their relationship in general. “
Because I saw tons of people frowning on their unbelievably “weird” union, including my beloved, feminist French godmother. I don’t understand why they are so upset about a “unicorn” marital union that happened to take place; they did not do this on purpose of some rebellious incentives. It takes an unprecedented gut to do it and follow through… ❗️
“I don’t really have a dog in the fight. When I said I don’t understand why they are even entertaining this nonsense, I was referring to her defense of her gender.”
I think she is defending her marriage and Macron’s reputation as a straight man/husband.
“I just don’t see it like that. Maybe because I’m the age she was when they married, and there’s no way I’d marry a 30-year-old man.”
Well, she didn’t get to know him at the age of 30 as a stranger, she already knew him beforehand more than 15 years… She’s his first and most faithful crush/LO.
“I hope you get a chance to cook your food and have people enjoy it.”
I pray that Mom would not get worse (not sure yet what’s causing her fever) ; otherwise, I’d have to take her to an emergency room, forget about the pile of raw 🍱.
The ungraded exams look so dreadful now, after I’ve learned playing another piece of piano 🎹 riff — “Someone like you”… it’s so pretty 😍 My fingers are so clumsy…
Miss Snow,
“I’m not fond of/used to seeing women’s naked bodies in the big screen.”
Female nudity doesn’t bother me, and I’m all for gratuitous male nudity. 🙂
” Was she naked at all in the movie❓ I thought that some American aging women really have a quite appetite in young dude”
From what I remember, they are sunbathing together and both naked and she is admiring his body and thinking she is aged and decrepit. The movie doesn’t really work because it’s Helen Mirren and she’s attractive. But her character thinks she’s too old and has to pay for companionship. It’s dated. It’s based on a Tennessee Williams’ novel from 1950.
“Well, she didn’t get to know him at the age of 30 as a stranger, she already knew him beforehand more than 15 years… She’s his first and most faithful crush/LO.”
None of this would matter to me. I would not put myself in a position where I was that much older than the man for a permanent relationship. I will age faster and first, as he is looking much younger. No, thank you.
“I pray that Mom would not get worse (not sure yet what’s causing her fever) ; otherwise, I’d have to take her to an emergency room, forget about the pile of raw 🍱.”
I hope she gets better.
“The ungraded exams look so dreadful now, after I’ve learned playing another piece of piano 🎹 riff — “Someone like you”… it’s so pretty 😍 My fingers are so clumsy…”
Get to work and focus on the exams, my INFP sister! (I’m teasing.)
🥂 Marcia,
“Female nudity doesn’t bother me, and I’m all for gratuitous male nudity. 🙂”
Only Binoche’s nudity does not bother me, and I’m all for “gratuitous male nudity….” 😋
”From what I remember, they are sunbathing together and both naked and she is admiring his body and thinking she is aged and decrepit.”
I don’t remember this scene at all. I watched the movie because I saw her in the cast.
“The movie doesn’t really work because it’s Helen Mirren and she’s attractive. But her character thinks she’s too old and has to pay for companionship. It’s dated. It’s based on a Tennessee Williams’ novel from 1950.”
You just reminded me that the character has to PAY for this “companionship” 👎
“None of this would matter to me. I would not put myself in a position where I was that much older than the man for a permanent relationship. “
So you’re saying that you could take a 32 yrs dude to bed, but would not ever consider a permanent relationship with a man of 2 decades younger, even if he genuinely loves/desires the whole of you and wants to spend the rest of his life with you❓🤔
“I will age faster and first, as he is looking much younger. No, thank you.”
To the outside world, that would happen. But if your dude doesn’t mind your older look, why would you? The love union is between you two, not with the external world, right❓
Do you think Brigitte looks like a mother or a big sister to Macron? I wish she looks more feminine and a tiny bit more fuller (too bony 🧐 )
“I hope she gets better.”
Thank you. I got a box of Belgium chocolate for her PTist.
“Get to work and focus on the exams, my INFP sister! (I’m teasing.)”
I’m finding every excuse not to touch the exams… but I know I can’t focus on and enjoy anything else until I get through the pile 🥴 …
Are you enjoying the day so far, my INFP 👯♀️❓ This site is so quiet on Thanksgiving day, filled by us three spinsters’ discussions about young, handsome dudes and their delicious nudes …. 😜 🤭 😂
Dr L is rolling his 😳🫣
Miss Snow,
“I don’t remember this scene at all. I watched the movie because I saw her in the cast.”
I googled the scene. It’s with the luscious Olivier Martinez 🙂
“So you’re saying that you could take a 32 yrs dude to bed, but would not ever consider a permanent relationship with a man of 2 decades younger, even if he genuinely loves/desires the whole of you and wants to spend the rest of his life with you❓🤔”
Yes. Although I don’t have a lot of interest in casual sex. It would depend on the guy.
“To the outside world, that would happen. But if your dude doesn’t mind your older look, why would you? The love union is between you two, not with the external world, right❓”
I’m a realist when it comes to age.
“Do you think Brigitte looks like a mother or a big sister to Macron? ”
I just googled them. She definitely looks older but she’s French. So she’s of course sophisticated and glamorous. French women know how to do it !
“Thank you. I got a box of Belgium chocolate for her PTist.”
That sounds nice. I bet he’ll appreciate those.
“Are you enjoying the day so far, my INFP 👯♀️❓”
It’s been ok. How has your day been?
“This site is so quiet on Thanksgiving day, filled by us three spinsters’ discussions about young, handsome dudes and their delicious nudes …. 😜 🤭 😂”
I am NOT a spinster. I am a free agent, weighing my options. 🙂
“This site is so quiet on Thanksgiving day, filled by us three spinsters’ discussions about young, handsome dudes and their delicious nudes …. 😜 🤭 😂”
Spinsters 🤣
Some of us are here. We’re just choosing to sit in the shadows and lurk.. 😆
I can only imagine the backlash my Brother and I would get if we were on here late night discussing hot, young Women and their delicious nudes..
😱😆
MJ,
“I can only imagine the backlash my Brother and I would get if we were on here late night discussing hot, young Women and their delicious nudes..”
Oh, please. You and your endless ramblings about your LO and LF and Sabrina Carpenter and hot Latinas.
Don’t get me started on your posts with “brother.”
“Dude … here’s a video of a hot chick.”
“Dude, she’s a little chilly.”
It’s like reading the dialogue in a Porky’s movie. 🙂
“Don’t get me started on your posts with “brother.”
“Dude … here’s a video of a hot chick.””
Marcia Sweetie
Refer me please to these posts. Never once have him and I gone late into the night, prattling on and on about Hot, Young Women. You Ladies would have our heads on a platter. 🔪😆
Tbh, I can’t even remember the last time I sent him something like that. Unless it was a song I heard thats on a certain playlist of mine.
Besides what’s wrong with my ramblings? I’m bringing my issues to the table. Which deserves a little recognition doesn’t it? I mean at least I’m not in total denial and saying things like I’m not limerent anymore. I know what I’m not doing and I know I’m being lazy. I’m the first to admit I’m not totally out of the woods.
#LimboForever 😑
Btw, thanks for that comparison to Porkys. 😂That movie has so not held up and is almost downright cringe to watch now. I’ll have to change everything if my posts are really reading to something as awful as that total 80s slop.. 😆
Well brother I think unlike other gender specific words, there’s no female equivalent to simps. So I’d say that says it all about Western culture.
I think in my case, Dame Marcia is probably referring to me posting The Divynls’ I Touch Myself video. Which is interesting also as there is no male equivalent to that song as society doesn’t want to hear that from a man. There’s plenty of memes hilariously highlighting the reaction of women vs men to that particular act.
MJ,
[“Refer me please to these posts. Never once have him and I gone late into the night, prattling on and on about Hot, Young Women. You Ladies would have our heads on a platter. 🔪😆”]
MJ’s post: LO doesn’t seem to mind gray haired Dudes either, as her guy has more gray in his beard than Santa Claus has in his. If a gray haired/bearded Dude can land the hottest living Woman in the known Universe
You literally just posted this on November 25th. Three days ago. Isn’t your LO about 30?
“Besides what’s wrong with my ramblings?”
I did write it’s not healthy to ramble on about your LO. I don’t think it helps with the limerence. But I wrote nothing about the other women you post about. However, YOU’RE the one who brought up the posts between me and Miss Snow. To quote the song “Oh Sheila” but to flip the lyrics … And I KNOW you remember that song …
“Like I always say, what’s good for the gander
Is always good for the goose”
We will post about young, hot dudes all day long. If you don’t like it, don’t read the posts. They AREN’T addressed to you. 🙂
” I’m the first to admit I’m not totally out of the woods.”
Serious tone: Me, neither. I’m just trying to focus on the all the crap he pulled. And the negatives in his personality. I saw a whole different person when he came over than the one living in my head. As I wrote in my other post to you, it’s good to let some reality poke through the limerent fog.
“I’ll have to change everything if my posts are really reading to something as awful as that total 80s slop.. 😆”
What? Self-awareness? 🙂
Serious tone: I was watching a YouTube video from a woman who says she was an escort (I’m not sure if she still is) and now advises other escorts how to market themselves. If I remember correctly, the categories (and I’m paraphrasing because I don’t remember them exactly) were GE (girlfriend experience), College Girl (no surprise there), BDSM (which was BDSM, kink and massage, the most popular), PE (porn experience, think Pamela Anderson), High End Experience (Victoria’s Secret model types), BBW (plus size women) and .. MILF. So I’m having a good day. I’m completely serious. And then she pointed out that “MILF” is always one of the top porn searches. And I googled that. And she’s right. In 2024, according to PornHub, it was the second most searched term, under Hentai.
I know it’s not your thing, but … that ain’t true of every dude. And I realize the MILFs in porn are probably all of 30 or 35 … but cut me some slack … I’m working with what I got. 🙂
Sir 🦎 & 🎩 🥃,
“Some of us are here. We’re just choosing to sit in the shadows and lurk.. 😆 “
Of course, you didn’t dare to jump up to the stage of 3 hot “happenin” chicks! Miss Norma would engulf 🎩 🥃 in her limerented 🏠 , and two INFP 👯♀️ would tear off your Limerence clothes piece by piece and then gulp you down alive mercilessly (Even your mighty Grandpa won’t be able to save you….🤣)
The difference between our hot dudes savoring and your hot chicks dozing is that those dudes are not our LOs, so we could strip off their clothes inch by inch and flip over their hot body limb by limb… without losing our head in LE fog 🌫️ or soak our LE sorrow in 😭 💦 🪣 💦 …
It’s universally acknowledged that three hot chicks would spark endless dashing plays 🎭 at any given time at any place….
The 👯♀️ Show will go on after my hot pot 🍲 party… 🎊
Porky’s was cringe, then, too, to some of us. 😛 (Being babysat by much older brothers, meant seeing movies I was much too young for. Not that I was ever “old enough” for THAT one.)
There are plenty of songs about male you-know-what, lol. I’ve heard the rumors about Stroke and Dancing with Myself and Turning Japanese. And then there’s this blatant one:
https://youtu.be/Qs11TydhjhE?si=VJDxw_EPCxfhj4Nb
“You literally just posted this on November 25th. Three days ago. Isn’t your LO about 30?”
“However, YOU’RE the one who brought up the posts between me and Miss Snow.”
Marcia
You are correct that I posted those words a few days ago. The point I was making was the lack of frequency my Brother and I meet up here to chat. Whereas you and the Snow Queen are here on a almost nightly basis, chattering endlessly about Dudes you like and movies and shows you both like to watch, with those hot Dudes in them.
My point is I don’t care. I don’t really read them unless I happen to see him or I being discussed. Or something I feel you need razzed about. I mean come on, you know you would do the same and then some to me. Scrutinizing all my (our) words if we both chatted on in super long posts, about hot younger Women. In movies, TV shows, music, wherever. Putting us both on blast. Like how dare we feed our interests.
We don’t chat like you ladies do because we both probably aren’t finding a need to keep going on about it. He’s married anyway and is already aware of the triggers I think. I’m just stuck in a limbo-like state because the idea of LO is still a warm and fuzzy one. The need to be around or see her is so dramatically less these days. About all I do now is watch her posts (because I get a notification, go figure 😇) and look in the parking lot to see if she’s actually at work. This way at least I know the possibility of seeing her around might happen one night. Other than that, I don’t care. Nothing I do is mandatory. I’m not bawling my eyes out as much over her anymore. I’m not actively in her work area. Hoping she might take a walk to the lunchroom so I could follow her (like a true creep 🤓). Making time for any of it just isn’t feasible at this point. Especially if there are actual other real females I’m trying to make something happen with. Life was different working a day shift. Night shift is a different ballgame and the building I work in may as well be as big as your nearest small town. (Think 1 million+ square feet)
So its in this regard, I feel I’ve made some progress. Wanting to actually run my car into a wall at 90 mph or off a bridge was about as bad as it could get for a limerent. Its no freaking joke I was really that sad over this Woman.
So to be in this better place now feels more normal. Even though my little crush on her is probably anything but..
“I think in my case, Dame Marcia is probably referring to me posting The Divynls’ I Touch Myself video.”
Adam
I don’t know Brother. I think no matter what we talk about, we’ll be roasted for it. Can we really help how it all came about because of our life situations at the time??And can we really help our LOs were almost half our age? I feel like thats such a non-issue anyway..
I feel like we’ve come quite a way from the limerent days of yore. We know what our LOs mean to us and I think its good we knew our intentions were always nothing but sincere.
You on the other hand had very good rapport. Whereas all my episode was about was based in fantasy-land and bread crumbs. Now that we both know better, we like to hope we won’t happen to fall prey to its vicious ways anymore. At least in the way it took over our psyche. Overall I think the roller coaster sucked. The low moments especially..
Speaking of the male equivalent of songs, the only one that comes to mind for me is Billy Idols, Dancing with myself. Although I find it weak at best, if we’re talking about “that”
“Well, I looked all over the world
And there’s every type of girl
But your empty eyes seem to pass me by
Leave me dancing with myself
So let’s sink another drink
And it’ll give me time to think
If I had the chance, I’d ask the world to dance
And I’d be dancing with myself, oh-oh
Dancing with myself, oh-oh
Dancing with myself..”
“Oh, my ladies all wet, yeah, sweat, sweat
I wanna sweat, sweat, sweat, sweat, sweat, sweat
Sweat, sweat, sweat, sweat, sweat, sweat
Sweat, sweat, sweat, sweat, sweat, sweat
Sweat, sweat, sweat, ow!”
Sing it Spinsters..
Here are your microphones..
🎤🎤🎤 😆😂🤣
Good music picks up there Serial. Only really familiar with Dancing with myself. I forgot about the Stroke. (Always liked it too) Wasn’t familiar with The Blue Oyster Cult, but it kinda still holds up today I think.
There’s always AC/DCs “Big Ba//s” too. Which is just crass all over imo..
Miss Marcia,
I finished my grading! Thanks for your push… 🫂
“I googled the scene. It’s with the luscious Olivier Martinez 🙂”
Good gracious, he’s the guy acted against Binoche in “The Horseman on the Roof”! Indeed, he’s a luscious Frenchman! 😋
“I’m a realist when it comes to age.”
Growing up in COO, I guess I don’t have a strong concept of age in my head; I’ve been going around my business with little awareness of my race, age, gender, appearance (can’t see myself anyway)…. I care about what I see in others and the world, I’m having conversations with my internal Self, questions (in response to podcasts of science, psychology, and philosophy), and my imaginations, almost all the time…
“I just googled them. She definitely looks older but she’s French. So she’s of course sophisticated and glamorous. French women know how to do it !”
I know! French women could pull their sophistication and glamour through at any given age! I need to take lessons from them.
“It’s been ok. How has your day been?”
I did what I planed to do: sent out/texted E-greetings, listened to accumulative 3-4 hours of YT while doing laundry and handwashing my sneakers; worked out my upper extremities, learned to to play a piano piece, took a nap, ate healthy 2 meals, chatted with you and Norma, and finished the damned grading… but didn’t get my wished reading done… 😌
“I am NOT a spinster. I am a free agent, weighing my options. 🙂”
Sorry, I should have quoted “spinsters”, since I’m NOT a spinster, either…. nor Miss Norma…
I’ll have to get up early tomorrow for appt. and then hot pot. Do you have to work tomorrow? Hope your day will be light and joyful… 💐
Miss Snow,
“Good gracious, he’s the guy acted against Binoche in “The Horseman on the Roof”! Indeed, he’s a luscious Frenchman! ”
We’re not paying him to act! 🙂 He was the lover in “Unfaithful.” Good night, there are some hot scenes in that movie.
“Growing up in COO, I guess I don’t have a strong concept of age in my head; I’ve been going around my business with little awareness of my race, age, gender, appearance (can’t see myself anyway)…. ”
And yet you wrote about Ben Barnes being more attractive than Colin Firth. So you do notice appearance. : ) With a cold, hard, aesthetic assessment, he is better looking. He’s younger, he’s thinner, etc. He looks like a male model. But to me there’s no contest in terms of appeal and charisma with Firth.
“I know! French women could pull their sophistication and glamour through at any given age! I need to take lessons from them.”
I agree.
“I did what I planed to do: sent out/texted E-greetings, listened to accumulative 3-4 hours of YT while doing laundry and handwashing my sneakers; worked out my upper extremities, learned to to play a piano piece, took a nap, ate healthy 2 meals, chatted with you and Norma, and finished the damned grading… but didn’t get my wished reading done… 😌”
It still sounds like you got a lot done.
“Sorry, I should have quoted “spinsters”, since I’m NOT a spinster, either…. nor Miss Norma…”
Yes. We are all “happenin'” chicks. 🙂
“Do you have to work tomorrow? ”
Unfortunately, yes.
Miss Marcia,
“We’re not paying him to act! 🙂 He was the lover in “Unfaithful.” Good night, there are some hot scenes in that movie.”
I’ll have to check out those movies in which he’s a hot lover. He looked so French…. 😋
[“Growing up in COO, I guess I don’t have a strong concept of age in my head; I’ve been going around my business with little awareness of my race, age, gender, appearance (can’t see myself anyway)…. ”]
“And yet you wrote about Ben Barnes being more attractive than Colin Firth. So you do notice appearance. : )“
I said I was little aware of MY own race, age, gender, appearance… I’m from a homogenous “1984” growing up under the eyes of Big Brother… Of course, I notice others’ appearance, first overall appearance, then down to details to 💅 … who wants to touch/caress crooked, dirty toes 🙄 (I still suck my own clean toes everyday, making sure my body can still bend easily… 😊)
If I have a BP, I’ll (un)dress him for my eyes, and I’ll let him dress me for his taste, as long as I don’t look like a bimbo, warbling Thanksgiving turkey 🦃 🤣
“With a cold, hard, aesthetic assessment, he is better looking. He’s younger, he’s thinner, etc. He looks like a male model.”
I didn’t mean to use the word “attractive” to describe Ben Barnes’ Dorian Gray who has a pretty but very cold face. He was so innocent when he just arrived in the city, looking like a poet. He genuinely fell in love with Cybil , but the coach Firth kept corrupting him! I hate that character. The storyline with his daughter was added, but I thought: Ha, eat your “fruit”, you deserve it!
“But to me there’s no contest in terms of appeal and charisma with Firth.”
Not in this movie, Firth had the air of that “distinguished” Prof. LO, who stuck in my head for 1.5 years. Dealing with him, I’d be a piece of meat in a scary predator’s mouth! I could sense potential danger (heartless, cruel) or safety (kindness, trustable) from one’s eyes, male or female….
“It still sounds like you got a lot done.”
I did especially if you count what happened in my head…. I can’t be idle in my mind. If I didn’t learn something new, even just from YT talks or chitchats with others, I’d feel I’ve wasted my limited, precious time — the biggest “crime” of growing up in COO. I wanted to be more relaxed, but it’s hard, unless with some wine.
“Yes. We are all “happenin’” chicks. 🙂”
Yep! I’ll brag more about my 28 yrs limerent to my great, great, grandson MJ, who tries so hard to pull his 29 yrs LO towards him while this Granny trying to kick away the slimy Latino dude… 😳 (he’s gone for good! 💃 )
It sucks that you have to work! 😟 Well, try to take it easy, and we’ll chat about young, hot dudes’ nudes later… 😝
Miss Snow,
“I’ll have to check out those movies in which he’s a hot lover. He looked so French…. 😋”
It’s a hot movie, but in all seriousness, it’s Diane Lane’s performance that is really quite good. She’s the woman who has the affair. There’s a great scene of her on a train as she goes home after their first hook up and she’s remembering what happened. And she has been turned out. 🙂
“(I still suck my own clean toes everyday, making sure my body can still bend easily… 😊)”
You suck your own toes ? 🙂
“as long as I don’t look like a bimbo, warbling Thanksgiving turkey 🦃 🤣”
I can do bimbo. At home. Not out in public. I’m way too old for that. 🙂
“but the coach Firth kept corrupting him! I hate that character. ”
Oh, I loved the character. In the book, he’s very witty and, it’s implied, gay. So is the man who painted the portrait. They toned that all down for the movie. But when Colin Firth says, “I suggest we raise a little hell,” I’m in. 🙂
“while this Granny trying to kick away the slimy Latino dude… 😳 (he’s gone for good! 💃 )”
Slimy Latino dude? I don’t know what you’re referring to.
“We’ll chat about young, hot dudes’ nudes later… 😝”
We certainly will. 🙂
Miss Marcia,
“It’s a hot movie, but in all seriousness, it’s Diane Lane’s performance that is really quite good. She’s the woman who has the affair. There’s a great scene of her on a train as she goes home after their first hook up and she’s remembering what happened. And she has been turned out. 🙂”
Why did she have an affair, what’s possible causes behind it? Why are there so many movies showing someone’s affair? Don’t tell me the result, I want to find it out by watching it… I looked it up and still can’t figure out what “she has been turned out” means? 🧐
“You suck your own toes ? 🙂”
No I don’t suck my toes or fingers, but touch my nose with my toes during my stretching. 🙆🏻♀️ My feet used to reach behind my ears… still can but one at a time…
“I can do bimbo. At home. Not out in public. I’m way too old for that. 🙂”
You’ll have to pay me to dress me up like a bimbo! Anyway how does it suppose to look like for us Asians? 🫣
“Oh, I loved the character. In the book, he’s very witty and, it’s implied, gay. “
He probably symbolizes the author, Oscar Wilde, himself.
“So is the man who painted the portrait.”
Basil is sweet and talented, I like him played by Jeremy Brett in 1976’s play production.
“But when Colin Firth says, “I suggest we raise a little hell,” I’m in. 🙂”
It’s fun to watch human nature of “a little hell”, but not get into it; someone is going to get hurt 😞 (Sybil).
“Slimy Latino dude? I don’t know what you’re referring to.
That 28 yrs limerent Pet (the student who failed my class twice over in 14 months). His lower face shape and lips are just like that of Martinez (also has a half Spanish blood) in “The Horsemen on the roof”. But his eyes are slimy, without any French flavor; and his brain was eaten by a LE dog 🐶 …
“We’ll chat about young, hot dudes’ nudes later… 😝”
We certainly will. 🙂”
No more of Martinez, now that he looked like my Lim pet so has lost his appeal! Did you see how he aged in 2025? 🫣
Lady Marcia,
I could not resist to show off my leftovers here, they’re not as fancy as you see in google, but fresh enough for the unique celebration 🥳 —
https://imgur.com/a/aNCqBji
I also made some hot pulled 🍷, everyone liked it… 😊
Wanna fly over ❓I’ve got so much left in my refrigerator🥂
Miss Snow,
“Why did she have an affair, what’s possible causes behind it? ”
I starting to think we overdo that way of thinking. Maybe there’s no cause behind it. Maybe she just wants she wants. Olivier Martinez.
“Why are there so many movies showing someone’s affair? Don’t tell me the result, I want to find it out by watching it”
The ending is kind of silly and not realistic.
“I looked it up and still can’t figure out what “she has been turned out” means? 🧐”
The urban dictionary: The expression “turned out” means having become addicted to sex generally by one person.
“No I don’t suck my toes or fingers, but touch my nose with my toes during my stretching. 🙆🏻♀️ My feet used to reach behind my ears… still can but one at a time…”
Do you do yoga? I’m doing weight training/body weight exercises, walking and stretching. Just got back into it.
“You’ll have to pay me to dress me up like a bimbo!”
I mean, if you ‘re at home, I don’t see what difference it makes. For fun.
” Anyway how does it suppose to look like for us Asians? 🫣
Hmmm… I’d have to think about that. Probably the same way it does for anyone else. A little too much. 🙂
“He probably symbolizes the author, Oscar Wilde, himself.”
I’ve read that Wilde was very charming. And damn funny. Supposedly, when he was going through customs to start his tour of the U.S., he was asked what he wanted to declare. He said, “I have nothing to declare except my own genius.” 🙂
“I like him played by Jeremy Brett in 1976’s play production.”
Is that on YouTube?
“It’s fun to watch human nature of “a little hell”, but not get into it; someone is going to get hurt 😞 (Sybil).”
You have to indulge in it a little of it for it to count. 🙂
“No more of Martinez, now that he looked like my Lim pet so has lost his appeal! Did you see how he aged in 2025? 🫣”
I recently saw a link to an article about that but I didn’t click on it. I want to remember him as she was. 🙂
“I could not resist to show off my leftovers here, they’re not as fancy as you see in google, but fresh enough for the unique celebration 🥳 — https://imgur.com/a/aNCqBji”
That looks wonderful! Very elegant! I take it your mom is better ?
“Wanna fly over ❓I’ve got so much left in my refrigerator🥂”
Yes 🙂
Miss Marcia,
“I starting to think we overdo that way of thinking. Maybe there’s no cause behind it. Maybe she just wants she wants. Olivier Martinez.”
If she’s single, then that’s fine. But she has a husband, Richard Gere, who seems to be hurting (from the preview). Doing something at the cost of hurting another should be excused with “wants and does what one wants?” ❓🤔
“The ending is kind of silly and not realistic.”
“The urban dictionary: The expression “turned out” means having become addicted to sex generally by one person.”
My question is: if she’s single and the both sides are so available, would she be addicted to Martinez? Or is it the forbidden fruit just more desirous?
“Do you do yoga? I’m doing weight training/body weight exercises, walking and stretching. Just got back into it.”
I haven’t been doing Yoga for ages. My body has been always flexible, to the point that Yoga teacher used to stop my postures — because over-flexibility without muscle tone/ strength can cause injuries easily. I meditate daily to soothe body and mind…
Recently I’ve been working with physical therapist for my residual aching from that nasty fall in Florence back in April. But I’m too lazy to go to any gym, PT teaches how to use one’s own body weight, thera-belt, and furniture/door bar to do all necessary muscle strengthening and stretching exercises at home. I don’t want to rely on machines.
It’s great that you’re back to routine weight training 👍 In a gym ? With trainers? Or on your own?
“I mean, if you ‘re at home, I don’t see what difference it makes. For fun.”
It would hurt my own 👀, 🙈
”Hmmm… I’d have to think about that. Probably the same way it does for anyone else. A little too much. 🙂”
Maybe you can send an ink here and let me see what kind of outfit could be considered, by your ladyship’s eyes, as Asian Bimbo dresses? 😋
“I’ve read that Wilde was very charming. And damn funny. “
Stephen Fry is really good in playing him.
“Supposedly, when he was going through customs to start his tour of the U.S., he was asked what he wanted to declare. He said, “I have nothing to declare except my own genius.” 🙂”
Yes, I’ve heard that anecdote a hundred times. He’s indeed a genius in his wits!
“I like him played by Jeremy Brett in 1976’s play production.”
“Is that on YouTube? “
I don’t know. I have a DVD collection of Wilde’s 4 plays.
“You have to indulge in it a little of it for it to count. 🙂”
Once Dorian Gray is corrupted, the whole movie became dull, Ben Barnes looked a brainless, cruel, colorless pimp. By then, Firth’s performance became more interesting, he’s a mastermind. I like his daughter who is so trusting and romantic…
“I recently saw a link to an article about that but I didn’t click on it. I want to remember him as she was. 🙂”
Smart of you, don’t ever click, he’s now unrecognizable! Male actors in general age much worse than female ones, I don’t understand why⁉️
“That looks wonderful! Very elegant! I take it your mom is better ?”
Thank you, Mom’s cold got better with the fever gone.
I could have made the plates more colorful. COO food stress colors/arrangement, smell/fragrance, and taste/savor. You’re not supposed to ask for or add more spices (e.g salt, soy sauce) to already prepared food — that’s an insult to chef. Hot Pot is an exception — you mix your own sauce.
A Chef does all cutting and arrangements; eaters don’t do any “work” but use only one hand picking up food on the table. Imagine what your other hand could possibly do under the table if sitting next to a man ⁉️ 😉. Composure, smiles, gentle movements… never forget TABLE manners, my Lady❗️🤭
How did your social gathering go today?
Miss Snow,
“Doing something at the cost of hurting another should be excused with “wants and does what one wants?” ”
No. Just that, because she wants Martinez doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with her or her life or her marriage. Maybe she just met a guy she really wanted.
“My question is: if she’s single and the both sides are so available, would she be addicted to Martinez? ”
Possibly. You’ll have to see the movie. It’s pretty intense. The sex is really hot. That doesn’t happen every day.
“Or is it the forbidden fruit just more desirous?”
That might add to it.
“My body has been always flexible, to the point that Yoga teacher used to stop my postures —”
I’m not particularly flexible but I think stretching is important. Unless, as you wrote, you’re overly flexible.
“But I’m too lazy to go to any gym, PT teaches how to use one’s own body weight, thera-belt, and furniture/door bar to do all necessary muscle strengthening and stretching exercises at home. I don’t want to rely on machines.”
I don’t go to a gym. Just body weight and some dumbbells at home.
“Maybe you can send an ink here and let me see what kind of outfit could be considered, by your ladyship’s eyes, as Asian Bimbo dresses? 😋”
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4YmGfsHKjPY
Lol. I typed “Asian bimbo dresses” into YouTube’s search bar and this came up. This is actually very elegant and pretty. And it fits her figure and looks sexy. But it wouldn’t call it “bimbo.”
“Stephen Fry is really good in playing him.”
He is fantastic! I love that movie. Poor Wilde … who was played by Bosie.
“Ben Barnes looked a brainless, cruel, colorless pimp. ”
I think he’s kind of a bland actor.
“By then, Firth’s performance became more interesting, he’s a mastermind. ”
That’s the book. Dorian becomes more and more corrupted.
“Male actors in general age much worse than female ones, I don’t understand why⁉️”
As a general rule, men don’t take care of themselves (skin care, sun protection, hair care) the way women do.
“You’re not supposed to ask for or add more spices (e.g salt, soy sauce) to already prepared food — that’s an insult to chef. ”
I did not know that. What kinds of meats/proteins did you have?
“A Chef does all cutting and arrangements; eaters don’t do any “work” but use only one hand picking up food on the table. Imagine what your other hand could possibly do under the table if sitting next to a man ⁉️ 😉”
That took a surprising turn. 🙂
“How did your social gathering go today?”
I actually had a really nice time. We’re meeting up again in a few weeks. Probably out to the bars. These people like to have fun. Something I’m in dire need of.
In terms of Adam’s situation … I’ve had similar moments. With LO and LO-lite. They both made some vague statements about things not going well in their relationships … and my mind filled in the rest of the story. Well, of course, I think, you’re not happy. You’d be happier with me. It’s a lie I told myself. To make myself feel better. At least I did.
Lady Marcia,
“No. Just that, because she wants Martinez doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with her or her life or her marriage. Maybe she just met a guy she really wanted.”
I watched the movie. Yes, there is something WRONG with her — has nothing else of her own to do, besides being a mother and a wife. She is just a modern version of Emma in “Madame Bovary”, bored of the suburb and could not truly appreciate her family life. So a romantic stimulus would catch her easily!
Her selfishness got two men badly hurt, one died and the other going a jail cell❗️😏 I don’t think the ending is silly and unrealistic, I can see my Dad doing it❗️ It has heroic and romantic elements of Victor Hugo’s work — sacrifice for your true love and follow conscience of justice.
“It’s pretty intense. The sex is really hot. That doesn’t happen every day.”
Not a big deal, there are a lot of movies with hot sex scene; after watching a few, they become almost common. Only Martinez’s eyes are somewhat sweet but also slimy — he’s a playboy, and his chin and mouth make him look stupid, so much reminding me my slimy Lim pet with stupid, slimy eyes… 😏
But no one deserves death or prison due to a married woman’s wanton acts. It would be her karma to get tormented after her husband goes to the prison.
[“Or is it the forbidden fruit just more desirous?”]
“That might add to it.”
Her desire is not so much about a forbidden fruit, but her core boredom without hobbies or artistic pursuits, like many wealthy, boring, gossipy suburban wives. Even Richard Gere would become boring after 11 years of routine living. He’s never my type, and is certainly less hotter against the young Martinez.
“https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4YmGfsHKjPY
“Lol. I typed “Asian bimbo dresses” into YouTube’s search bar and this came up. This is actually very elegant and pretty. And it fits her figure and looks sexy. But it wouldn’t call it “bimbo.”
Your ladyship, I have a COO-tailored, dark rosy, silk dress like the above, but with a much higher opening on both sides (for my wedding. 😊) Later, I wore it once with my xSO to Kennedy Center in DC for a Gershwin concert, and got a half of theater turning their heads, making me so startled/nervous — I hate attention! The dress probably fits me better now, it was a tiny big around the collar.
“He is fantastic! I love that movie. Poor Wilde … who was played by Bosie.”
That rich, heartless Bosie 😠 (he did write and publish some pomes)! Stephen Fry portrayed soft, sensitive, and vulnerable Wilde, which made him so sympathetic on the screen.
“I think he’s kind of a bland actor.”
Ben Barnes is. I’d rather watch Martinez in “The Horsemen on the Roof” with Binoche. He played a very romantic role there.
“That’s the book. Dorian becomes more and more corrupted.”
Dorian is not romantic at all, but purely evil and boring. The movie gave him some sympathetic twists and “punished” Firth through his daughter.
“As a general rule, men don’t take care of themselves (skin care, sun protection, hair care) the way women do.”
That’s so unwise. Then, they complain aging less attractive.
“I did not know that. What kinds of meats/proteins did you have?”
I had: thinly sliced black fish, lean beef, fat beef, lamb, chicken, lobster balls, marinated tofu, crab meat balls, fresh lotus roots, winter melon, Bok Choy, Udon noodle, chopped green scallion and cilantro. Of course, there are spicy hot pot packaged sauce, one special Chinese barbecue sauce, and one Japanese barbecue sauce. It could feed 6 people easily.
[“imagine what your other hand could possibly do under the table if sitting next to a man ⁉️ 😉”]
“That took a surprising turn. 🙂 “
I have to make my posts some LE potential related, don’t I? 😆
“I actually had a really nice time. We’re meeting up again in a few weeks. Probably out to the bars. These people like to have fun. Something I’m in dire need of.”
Then, keep up with them for fun!
“In terms of Adam’s situation … I’ve had similar moments. With LO and LO-lite. They both made some vague statements about things not going well in their relationships … and my mind filled in the rest of the story. “
I did a little bit with ET and his giant, henpecking wife, not much, though. But she appeared in my dreams several times bossing around, so annoying! I very much dislike controlling people, both men and women. 🙄
“Well, of course, I think, you’re not happy. You’d be happier with me. It’s a lie I told myself. To make myself feel better. At least I did.”
Your ladyship, you know your ego well… 🙂 No one can FIX another’s mental/emotional problems, except him/her self w/o some external, substantial help.
Lady Snow,
“Yes, there is something WRONG with her — has nothing else of her own to do, besides being a mother and a wife. ”
That’s probably true. It’s been a number of years since I’ve seen the movie.
“She is just a modern version of Emma in “Madame Bovary”, bored of the suburb and could not truly appreciate her family life. So a romantic stimulus would catch her easily!”
I don’t know if I agree with that. Emma was a true romantic. She thought she was in love with her two affair partners. I don’t think the woman in Unfaithful is under any illusion she’s in love with OM.
” I don’t think the ending is silly and unrealistic, I can see my Dad doing it❗️ ”
You can see your father killing another man and then asking your mother to live with and keep that secret? I had to look up the ending. I kind of tuned out after the murder. I didn’t remember Gere turning himself in. According to Wikipedia, he considers turning himself in and she objects. The scene where he stops in front of of a police station is supposed to be kind of a daydream.
“Not a big deal, there are a lot of movies with hot sex scene; after watching a few, they become almost common.”
I didn’t think so at all.
“Only Martinez’s eyes are somewhat sweet but also slimy — he’s a playboy, and his chin and mouth make him look stupid, so much reminding me my slimy Lim pet with stupid, slimy eyes… 😏
You are VERY picky about the men you like. 🙂 So I have about a .000001% cent of picking a male celebrity and a movie scenario that meet your approval. 🙂
“But no one deserves death or prison due to a married woman’s wanton acts. It would be her karma to get tormented after her husband goes to the prison.”
If the husband does turn himself in (and I’d argue he doesn’t) … he did that to himself. Based on choices he made. At the end of the day, despite the fact that she betrayed him and hurt him, he’s still making his own choices.
“Her desire is not so much about a forbidden fruit, but her core boredom without hobbies or artistic pursuits, like many wealthy, boring, gossipy suburban wives. Even Richard Gere would become boring after 11 years of routine living. He’s never my type, and is certainly less hotter against the young Martinez.”
Gere was playing against type. Years earlier, he would have played the Martinez part. It’s your classic comfort versus passion debate. She has a nice, comfortable life with a man who loves her but her head is turned by … feeling alive. Yes, she is probably bored but I get tired of the immediate assumption that, because a partnered person has their head turned by someone else, there is something wrong. People are complex and sometimes have conflicting desires.
“Your ladyship, I have a COO-tailored, dark rosy, silk dress like the above, but with a much higher opening on both sides (for my wedding. 😊) ”
I thought it was a great dress. And the young woman was gorgeous in it.
“That rich, heartless Bosie 😠 (he did write and publish some pomes)! ”
Yes, he was a poet in his own right.
“Stephen Fry portrayed soft, sensitive, and vulnerable Wilde, which made him so sympathetic on the screen.”
Wilde was also supposedly a little bit haughty, a little bit performative with the way he dressed. Definitely self-promoting. But also, as you wrote, sensitive and vulnerable. There’s a classic example of charisma! He wasn’t supposed to have been all that handsome.
“Ben Barnes is. I’d rather watch Martinez in “The Horsemen on the Roof” with Binoche. He played a very romantic role there.”
I’ll have to see that. I really do like her.
“That’s so unwise. Then, they complain aging less attractive.”
Do they? It seems like they’re a bit oblivious to it.
“I had: thinly sliced black fish, lean beef, fat beef, lamb, chicken, lobster balls, marinated tofu, crab meat balls, fresh lotus roots, winter melon, Bok Choy, Udon noodle, chopped green scallion and cilantro. Of course, there are spicy hot pot packaged sauce, one special Chinese barbecue sauce, and one Japanese barbecue sauce. It could feed 6 people easily.”
Wow. That sounds like a feast! I can see why you so dislike American frozen food and fast food after eating like this. So everything is cooked with no seasoning and then people choose the sauces they want to use ?
I really did have fun with those new friends. (A small group from the side hustle. Men and women.) Probably for the first time since LO-lite. I mean, I have a “nice” time or a “pleasant” time. But not “fun.” Fun is a strong word.
“I very much dislike controlling people, both men and women. 🙄”
I am SOOOO in agreement. Someone starts to control me … I remove myself from the playing field. I DO NOT like it.
“Your ladyship, you know your ego well… 🙂 ”
You called it right. It’s ego. There’s a scene in the first “Sex and the City” series where the Carrie character tells her 3 girlfriends that the man she had a situationship with has married someone else. And the friends basically massage her ego, telling her that he married a boring woman. It’s total b.s. He married the other woman because she was more his physical type (as evidenced by how his first wife looked) and she fit into his world better. And she has a kind of quiet confidence that Carrie completely lacks. Carrie is a “pick me” girl. “Like me, like me, like me.” I’m rambling, but I could so relate to going to a lunch with friends and having them tell me that kind of b.s. The bottom line is: He didn’t want to marry Carrie. I know they end up together at the end of the series, but it’s unrealistic. And this relates back to our LOs (“our” being the generic limerent). They’re not picking us. And it hurts. But it’s the truth.
Lady Marcia,
“That’s probably true. It’s been a number of years since I’ve seen the movie.”
My x-mother-in-law was a full-time mother and a painter, during her children years, she always picked up the brushes whenever she had a moment. With two marriages, she never felt bored or attempted to have an affair, as far as I know. Her 1st, limerent husband had affairs and walked out the marriage. She still passionately paints everyday after her 2nd Albanian husband died two years ago. She repeatedly said that she loved her work all her life and never felt lonely. She’s always a gracious hostess but actually dislikes people, aside from her family.
“I don’t know if I agree with that. Emma was a true romantic. She thought she was in love with her two affair partners. I don’t think the woman in Unfaithful is under any illusion she’s in love with OM.”
The wife in the movie first thought it was a fun sling, but soon fell in LE for OM — told him that he’s in her head on first/last moment of the day; she was late to pick up her son after school and burned food, almost causing a fire in front of her son. The audience doesn’t know in depth what’s going her in her head, but saw her behaviors — worse than “in love”.
My Dad wouldn’t kill anyone and DID forgive Mom’s several affairs during their marriage and even chose to go an hush exile with her due to her illicit affairs! .
“ I had to look up the ending. I kind of tuned out after the murder. I didn’t remember Gere turning himself in. According to Wikipedia, he considers turning himself in and she objects. The scene where he stops in front of of a police station is supposed to be kind of a daydream.”
To me, the scene is not a daydream. They paused in front of police station and the traffic light in front of the car kept changing from red to green back and forth. They talked about running away to a foreign country, fishing everyday under the Sun, but they both know it’s not a way to live with fear hanging in the head constantly… and the conscience of justice….
“I didn’t think so at all.”
“Hot” illicit sex, involving so much anxiety, lies, and worries never turned me on. My system subconsciously feared that Room 101.
“You are VERY picky about the men you like. 🙂 So I have about a .000001% cent of picking a male celebrity and a movie scenario that meet your approval. 🙂”
You’re absolutely right here. Your type of celebrity would not be picked up by my Glimmer, let alone my logical mind…
“If the husband does turn himself in (and I’d argue he doesn’t) … he did that to himself. Based on choices he made. At the end of the day, despite the fact that she betrayed him and hurt him, he’s still making his own choices.”
I think the husband would turn himself in. He has to pay for the wife’s affair. He didn’t intend to kill OM, it’s an accident out of anger. The movie is as much about the wife as the husband. Near half of it was about after the murder.
“Gere was playing against type. Years earlier, he would have played the Martinez part. “
So many people seem to like this kind of movies, not me. They don’t inspire anything bright or creative in me but make my nerves tense, feeling like a “criminal”. I despise Mom for her stupid affairs and swore never to become Mom Jr. 🤮 ❗️
“It’s your classic comfort versus passion debate. She has a nice, comfortable life with a man who loves her but her head is turned by … feeling alive. “
Ah, it’s that overrated “feeling alive” again. Why can’t one go after harm-free, emotionally, mentally, spiritually love to feel “alive”? I think such an emphasis/pursuit of “feeling alive” for is not only possibly “harmful” to others but also probably unhealthy to oneself…. Feelings fleet and can be DELUSIONAL, unless one can create (e.g. giving love more) and sustain them within. *sigh*, we can NEVER agree on this. 🙂
“Yes, she is probably bored but I get tired of the immediate assumption that, because a partnered person has their head turned by someone else, there is something wrong. “
I spend half a night to watch the movie, so I could come up with opinions. Her boredom is clearly pointed out even by her husband and he asked her whether she wanted to move back to the city to live. (By the way, two doors to the right of OM’s apartment is my x-mother-in-law’s loft (whitish on the corner). All lofts there are from 1500-3000 square feet big. As usual, her traditional Thanksgiving dinner is held there 3 days ago…. )
“People are complex and sometimes have conflicting desires.”
Very true. As a human being, having desires of any kind and complexity is fine, but whether to act on them is totally another matter. Possible harm induced acts must be weighted carefully beforehand. The wife’s two lady friends warned her — no affair ever comes out without disaster, which is TRUE.
“I thought it was a great dress. And the young woman was gorgeous in it.”
Yes, she is. That’s traditional dress used to be worn by wealthy women or for wedding. One can hardly walk with that kind of dress on. So I have my dress tailored with high slits all the way 🆙… Classical yet “dangerous…” 😊
“Wilde was also supposedly a little bit haughty, a little bit performative with the way he dressed. Definitely self-promoting. But also, as you wrote, sensitive and vulnerable. There’s a classic example of charisma! He wasn’t supposed to have been all that handsome.”
Totally agree with you here, Fry is terribly charming and charismatic, more so than Wilde’s pictures.
“I’d rather watch Martinez in “The Horsemen on the Roof” with Binoche. He played a very romantic role there.”
“I’ll have to see that. I really do like her.”
I vaguely remember that he rode a horse back to save dying her from a pandemic, when everyone fled and left her alone in a big house. I was so touched by the Western chivalry and romance back then….
“So everything is cooked with no seasoning and then people choose the sauces they want to use ?”
You mix your own sauce in your own plate/bowl beforehand. Then dip your selection of meat or vegetable in the center boiling pots to be cooked fast, then you fetch them with a cooking spoon to your own plate to dip the sauce, you need two hands in this style. I don’t leave any room for a possible LE act! 😂
“I really did have fun with those new friends. (A small group from the side hustle. Men and women.) Probably for the first time since LO-lite. I mean, I have a “nice” time or a “pleasant” time. But not “fun.” Fun is a strong word.”
It sounds like you’re recovering more from LO-lite. I hope you have more fun with these friends, which would bring you more out of LE-lite soon.
“I am SOOOO in agreement. Someone starts to control me … I remove myself from the playing field. I DO NOT like it.”
I am very attracted to people with artistic and creative mind, they’re open/curious to all matters of life. These people couldn’t care less about “controlling” others. I’d rather to dine with Don Quixote and Sanche than rolling under the sheet with the playboy OM…
“You called it right. It’s ego. There’s a scene in the first “Sex and the City” series where the Carrie character tells her 3 girlfriends that the man she had a situationship with has married someone else. And the friends basically massage her ego, telling her that he married a boring woman. It’s total b.s. He married the other woman because she was more his physical type (as evidenced by how his first wife looked) and she fit into his world better. And she has a kind of quiet confidence that Carrie completely lacks.”
Now, looking back, the four women in “Sex and the City” are so pathetic and unwise. A few of my COO gfs and I watched the whole serious trying to learn about American women… and when I travelled around the world, everyone asked me whether I led a life like them! 🙄 It’s such a mislead!
“Carrie is a “pick me” girl. “Like me, like me, like me.” I’m rambling, but I could so relate to going to a lunch with friends and having them tell me that kind of b.s.”
That’s so sad to see those smart women to “beg” men and then cheat/lie to themselves… I never thought that such glamorous, successful women could be so weak /vulnerable to face the bitter truths about themselves….
“The bottom line is: He didn’t want to marry Carrie. I know they end up together at the end of the series, but it’s unrealistic. And this relates back to our LOs (“our” being the generic limerent). They’re not picking us. And it hurts. But it’s the truth.”
I still dislike the word “picking”, which makes women so passive/“helpless” like “fawns.” Mandana would never need to use the word “being picked”, so is Binoche, who had several marriage proposals but turned them all down without ever clearly saying a NO….
Miss Snow,
” She’s always a gracious hostess but actually dislikes people, aside from her family.”
I’m not going to tell someone who to like, but that mindset seems a little closed. It means she’d be hanging out with the same people all her life.
“The wife in the movie first thought it was a fun sling, but soon fell in LE for OM — told him that he’s in her head on first/last moment of the day; she was late to pick up her son after school and burned food, almost causing a fire in front of her son. ”
I’d forgotten those scenes. I haven’t seen the movie in years. I don’t remember having the feeling OM feels the same for her ? Or maybe the movie doesn’t get into how he feels.
“My Dad wouldn’t kill anyone and DID forgive Mom’s several affairs during their marriage and even chose to go an hush exile with her due to her illicit affairs! .”
What does a hush exile mean? Interesting that your mother was the introvert and your father the extrovert, but she was the one who had the affairs.
“To me, the scene is not a daydream. They paused in front of police station and the traffic light in front of the car kept changing from red to green back and forth. ”
Movies are always up for interpretation. There’s not one way to interpret them. I just pulled up whatever was on Wikipedia. So that’s how the writer of the article saw it.
““Hot” illicit sex, involving so much anxiety, lies, and worries never turned me on. My system subconsciously feared that Room 101.”
I don’t necessarily need lies but a little bit of anxiety? Yeah, I think so. Something to rev it up a little or it starts getting habitual.
“I think the husband would turn himself in. He has to pay for the wife’s affair. He didn’t intend to kill OM, it’s an accident out of anger. The movie is as much about the wife as the husband. Near half of it was about after the murder.”
True. I didn’t like the second half of the movie, after the murder. I lost interest. Turned into a typical murder-mystery-can-they-get-away-with-it.
“So many people seem to like this kind of movies, not me. ”
I don’t think it’s a fantastic movie. I just thought he was hot, their trysts were hot and her performance was really good.
“Ah, it’s that overrated “feeling alive” again.”
It’s not overrated at all.
“Why can’t one go after harm-free, emotionally, mentally, spiritually love to feel “alive”? ”
Maybe in the beginning of relationship, the passionate love phase can probably provide it. But it dies. It always does. So the ways to get it after that aren’t “harm free.”
“I think such an emphasis/pursuit of “feeling alive” for is not only possibly “harmful” to others but also probably unhealthy to oneself…. ”
I would agree. But it doesn’t mean the feelings go away.
“(By the way, two doors to the right of OM’s apartment is my x-mother-in-law’s loft (whitish on the corner). All lofts there are from 1500-3000 square feet big. As usual, her traditional Thanksgiving dinner is held there 3 days ago…. )”
You know how I am with these abbreviation’s of yours. 🙂 I don’t know who OM is. But that’s a good-sized apartment.
“The wife’s two lady friends warned her — no affair ever comes out without disaster, which is TRUE.”
I don’t know if they cause “disaster.” That’s the movies being dramatic. Pain, maybe.
“Classical yet “dangerous…” 😊”
That’s my idea of a sexy dress. Shows off your shape in the right places but isn’t too much. Isn’t glued to you or showing off your butt. 🙂
“Totally agree with you here, Fry is terribly charming and charismatic, more so than Wilde’s pictures.”
What I meant is … he more than made up for his appearance with his charisma.
“You mix your own sauce in your own plate/bowl beforehand. Then dip your selection of meat or vegetable in the center boiling pots to be cooked fast”
Oh, ok. So you cook it at the table.
“I don’t leave any room for a possible LE act! 😂”
I would highly doubt any LO would be sitting at the table. Possible, but unlikely. 🙂
“It sounds like you’re recovering more from LO-lite. I hope you have more fun with these friends, which would bring you more out of LE-lite soon.”
I think about him a lot. I’m just not going to do anything about it. Anything more and I’m veering into “pick me” behavior. And I can’t do that to myself anymore.
“I am very attracted to people with artistic and creative mind, they’re open/curious to all matters of life. These people couldn’t care less about “controlling” others. ”
I don’t know if controlling behavior is saved only for non-creative types. Picasso was beyond manipulative and controlling. Read about the way he treated the women in his life. Oh, boy, it was bad.
“That’s so sad to see those smart women to “beg” men and then cheat/lie to themselves… I never thought that such glamorous, successful women could be so weak /vulnerable to face the bitter truths about themselves….”
That’s what it is. I brought it up because she’s either limerent for him or has limerent tendencies.
“I still dislike the word “picking”, which makes women so passive/“helpless” like “fawns.””
Well, they have to pick you but you also have to pick them. It’s mutual.
I think Wilde was handsome. 🙂 That declaring genius quote sounds rather narcissistic, though, lol. I read his De Profundis, so I got a glimpse into his mind—I think there was definitely some narcissism there, though not a sociopath or anything like that. From what I recall—it’s been a while—there was a lot of hurt and pain over what Bosie did to him. But also comparisons of himself to Jesus. I find Wilde fascinating; just read an article last night about his grandson helping to change his legacy from shame to honorable again.
As for Picasso, several years ago I watched the National Geographic series dramatizing his life. And yeah, speaking of narcissists—He was one, for sure. I read that the production team (which included Ron Howard) tried to get the subjects of their “genius” series portrayed as accurately as possible.
Miss Marcia,
”I’m not going to tell someone who to like, but that mindset seems a little closed. It means she’d be hanging out with the same people all her life.”
If you remember, I said my x-mother-in-law is like Bisset, very pretty, charming, ladylike with a great education, superb manner and artistic/refined tastes in everything she touches/owns — she designed every piece of party dress and sew them together by herself (she lent me some for huge-end parties). She’s not intellectually deep, but very creative and open-minded (she sold a few piece of abstract paintings)
Between superficial socializing and painting, she definitely chose the latter. Like me, she’s a single child brought up by a painter single-mother with old money and “authentic” Christianity (you won’t believe what the ex-grandma did). However, she worked hard as cocktail waitress to raise her 3 teenage boys after her first divorce. She had two life-time girlfriend and that charismatic Gay friend — Godfather of her three boys and a biography writer of Hollywood star, Jimmy, who could drop at her place anytime (even in her morning bed) should she want, until he suddenly died of a heart attack.
“I’d forgotten those scenes. I haven’t seen the movie in years. I don’t remember having the feeling OM feels the same for her ? Or maybe the movie doesn’t get into how he feels.”
OM was a divorced playboy (lied he was 18 upon meeting her) and seeing other girls/women simultaneously. When she caught him with another one, she went nuts and made a scene in public — trying to physically beat him, as if he were her bf or husband.
[“What does a hush exile mean? Interesting that your mother was the introvert and your father the extrovert, but she was the one who had the affairs.”]
A typo here, I meant to say, “a harsh exile”, living in a Siberian village like for over 2.5 years. Outside, Mother was faking “extrovert” with her colleagues and patients — she terribly cared about her images in their eyes. Charming Dad had attracted a lot of singlemarried women’s flirts in public (little me watched some without understanding), but would not ever touch their hands. As I said before, I did/do not understand why and how he had put up with Mom wanton betrayals again and again and even chose to exile with her.
“Movies are always up for interpretation. There’s not one way to interpret them. I just pulled up whatever was on Wikipedia. So that’s how the writer of the article saw it.”
I do read published critiques or reviews to get some information and opinions. But if I really want to dig something, I’ll read or watch that piece of work to form my own opinions without necessarily following any “authority” voice, particularly on technicality — e.g. colors/compositions of paintings or motifs of movies/fictions, behind which are key ideas that creators want to convey to their viewers.
“I don’t necessarily need lies but a little bit of anxiety? Yeah, I think so. Something to rev it up a little or it starts getting habitual.”
Well, the wife in the movie had to lie repeatedly, and all illicit affairs can only take place with lies. Some people, particularly in the West, like anxiety aroused by risk-staking or reckless behaviors, but for some others, adrenaline spikes would even curb/inhabit sexual energy moving… just like riding on roller-coaster or skiing down mountains. In a communist system, illicit risk-taking induces heavy punishment at work or in one’s personal life. One had/has to think 100 times before acting….
If one HABITUALLY creating and producing something new, then that habit would enrich one’s life with much less boredom, like my x-mother-in-law. Besides a weekly cleaning lady, she did cooking, shopping, and other mandates by herself. Colors and patterns of every room in her houses were mixed/created by her and painted by her — she’s a hands on artist/creator, who also travelled well with style.
[“Ah, it’s that overrated “feeling alive” again.”]
It’s not overrated at all.
To you and many others, it is not. But to me, it’s neither wise nor romantic (how could secrecy be related to great romance❓) but animalistic aroused by our hormones. We’re higher-intelligent human beings, requiring more to “feel alive”. If our intellect/mind is not maximized or utilized, we’d feel bored in career or personal life.
“Maybe in the beginning of relationship, the passionate love phase can probably provide it. But it dies. It always does. So the ways to get it after that aren’t “harm free.”
Very true❗️ But I disagree with that “it always does”. Fisher’s MRI results show that “in love” does NOT necessarily die after 25 years. To my small eyes, your (collective) view on this is very cynical, perhaps due to the Western/Romanticism culture and a lot of personal experiences.
And if such a fading/dying/impermanence is indeed a default of life, like what Buddhism believes, then we need to find ways to beat the phenomenon. We human beings can produce and and have created wonders, why not in one’s romantic/relational life⁉️ Why our psychology can’t evolve after 3000 years of civilization?
“I would agree. But it doesn’t mean the feelings go away.”
There is no reasons to kill/push away feelings, any kinds. Soon or later, they will die or change natures, unless one fans or rekindles it. Sometime, with a magic, it can be killed in a couple of hours or by an unexpected “incident”, as you witnessed in Yours truly…
“You know how I am with these abbreviation’s of yours. 🙂 I don’t know who OM is. But that’s a good-sized apartment.”
You INVENTED this abbreviation OM for Olivier Martinez, so I just followed. What’s happening with your memory⁉️ His huge apt. in the movie was shot 2 doors away from my x-Mother-in-law’s loft (on the same side), I recognized it.
“I don’t know if they cause “disaster.” That’s the movies being dramatic. Pain, maybe.”
That’s what her older lady friend stated based on her own bitter experiences (just hinted). If you were sent to a labor camp or exiled to sleep in a mud hut on a mud bed with fleas and lice, and without running water or indoor toilet for a couple of years, or had your lover killed by your jealous husband or boyfriend, then tell me whether an affair can cause disaster or not 😡
“What I meant is … he more than made up for his appearance with his charisma.”
Stephen Fry is not terribly handsome, but his charisma, intelligence, and humor are outstanding. I heard he’s quite humble in person with a bad bipolar disorder, suicidal attempts, but now he’s happily married to a younger man who truly loves him.
“Oh, ok. So you cook it at the table.
Yap. That’s why it is called “hot pot” — heated by fire underneath throughout the meal.
“I would highly doubt any LO would be sitting at the table. Possible, but unlikely. 🙂”
What about some good limerents sitting at the table? 😉 I do not want any LO for the rest of my life, but a BP. As you know, I already squashed 4 glimmers in the past 1.5 years!
“I think about him a lot. I’m just not going to do anything about it. Anything more and I’m veering into “pick me” behavior. And I can’t do that to myself anymore.
To think about one’s influential LO is humanistic; there is no need to force it away too hard — always backfires❗️ Just watch it with your keen awareness, it will eventually dies with NC. The act of “pick me” is degrading /demeaning and pathetic for anyone, both men and women….
“I don’t know if controlling behavior is saved only for non-creative types. Picasso was beyond manipulative and controlling. Read about the way he treated the women in his life. Oh, boy, it was bad.”
You are talking about rare genius that are handful in the history, like Picasso, Oscar Wilde, Einstein… most of artists and people with strong artistic steaks are ordinary. Their mind is too busy focusing on their creative work to care about “manipulate /control others. They (not writers) are even indifferent to others’ life.
“That’s what it is. I brought it up because she’s either limerent for him or has limerent tendencies.”
Carrie might have some limerent tendencies, but Samantha and the other two don’t have. Samantha is not “picking ME” girl, but “pickling and devouring YOU” leopard!🐆
“Well, they have to pick you but you also have to pick them. It’s mutual.”
Ideally, it should be both available sides picking each other simultaneously, but the cultural scripts of the both world have made men throughout the history picking women first in most mating situations, which I don’t think happened with George Sand, Madonna, Binoche, Mirren, Jane Fonda… or Yours truly…. 😊
I’m winding down with the semester and my beaten body, so looking forward to a winter break, envisioning sleeping 🛌 in with a morning tray, strolling in a Rose 🌹 Garden, and watching Sunset 🌅 on a quiet beach… 🏝️ Where is the paradise❓🤔
Miss Snow,
” She had two life-time girlfriend and that charismatic Gay friend — Godfather of her three boys and a biography writer of Hollywood star, Jimmy, who could drop at her place anytime (even in her morning bed) should she want, until he suddenly died of a heart attack.”
Ah, yes, now I remember the details. Sounds like she had some good friends. Maybe preferred that to a bigger circle of friends who may have been less close.
“OM was a divorced playboy (lied he was 18 upon meeting her) and seeing other girls/women simultaneously. ”
18? Sounds like he was teasing/flirting with her. And, really, why shouldn’t he see other women? She’s not exactly exclusive with him.
“As I said before, I did/do not understand why and how he had put up with Mom wanton betrayals again and again and even chose to exile with her.”
She was exiled because of the affairs?
“I do read published critiques or reviews to get some information and opinions. But if I really want to dig something, I’ll read or watch that piece of work to form my own opinions without necessarily following any “authority” voice”
I’m the same way. I just googled Wikipedia, not to read a critique or review, but because I couldn’t remember the ending of “Unfaithful.”
“Some people, particularly in the West, like anxiety aroused by risk-staking or reckless behaviors, but for some others, adrenaline spikes would even curb/inhabit sexual energy moving”
I’m the former.
“If one HABITUALLY creating and producing something new, then that habit would enrich one’s life with much less boredom, like my x-mother-in-law. Besides a weekly cleaning lady, she did cooking, shopping, and other mandates by herself. ”
I think living purposedly can help reduce limerent feelings/tendencies but I’m not sure it can get rid of or prevent them entirely. Limerence is a different kind of feeling than the one living purposefully produces.
“To you and many others, it is not. But to me, it’s neither wise nor romantic (how could secrecy be related to great romance❓)”
As I wrote, secrecy does not have to be involved.
” Fisher’s MRI results show that “in love” does NOT necessarily die after 25 years. To my small eyes, your (collective) view on this is very cynical, perhaps due to the Western/Romanticism culture and a lot of personal experiences.”
You and I are never going to agree on this. I’m not negating Fisher’s research, but it’s not something I’m holding out hope for as I have never personally met a couple who were still madly in love years into their relationship. That being said, I have met long-term couples who seemed to be each others’ person. You could tell they had a good relationship and really liked and enjoyed each other. You could feel it in their energy and how they interacted. That I think is possible, but they’re not swooning every time the other walks through the door after decades together.
“And if such a fading/dying/impermanence is indeed a default of life, like what Buddhism believes, then we need to find ways to beat the phenomenon. ”
I’m not sure you can. You just have to be aware of it and back away from it if you aren’t able to act on it.
“You INVENTED this abbreviation OM for Olivier Martinez, so I just followed. What’s happening with your memory⁉️”
Of course! Sorry. 🙂
“His huge apt. in the movie was shot 2 doors away from my x-Mother-in-law’s loft (on the same side), I recognized it.”
That’s wild. That’s another thing unrealistic about that movie. That apartment would cost a fortune. Hardly believable he’s making enough as a used-books dealer to afford it.
“If you were sent to a labor camp or exiled to sleep in a mud hut on a mud bed with fleas and lice”
Yes, again, we have very different life experiences. This being a consequence is never going to even occur to me.
“Stephen Fry is not terribly handsome, but his charisma, intelligence, and humor are outstanding.”
I agree. You know who is funny and charming? Miriam Margolyes. British actress. Was in the Harry Potter movies and The Age of Innocence (plays the grandmother).
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iVYn8r5ap_Q
“What about some good limerents sitting at the table? 😉”
Is there such a thing as a “good” limerent? 🙂
“As you know, I already squashed 4 glimmers in the past 1.5 years!”
Other than LO-lite, I’ve only had one other glimmer that was starting to move into limerence after my last big LO. I could feel myself getting weird, getting obsessive, plotting to see him. So I removed myself completely from where I met him (NC) and a few weeks past and he popped into my head, and I realized I hadn’t thought about him in weeks. So it is possible.
“The act of “pick me” is degrading /demeaning and pathetic for anyone, both men and women….”
I cringe at some of the stuff I did to get/keep an LO’s attention in the past. I can’t do it anymore.
“Their mind is too busy focusing on their creative work to care about “manipulate /control others. They (not writers) are even indifferent to others’ life.”
There may be some truth to this; I just don’t think you can say no artist is controlling.
“Samantha is not “picking ME” girl, but “pickling and devouring YOU” leopard!🐆”
Yep. She’s flipping the script. Using male tools/weapons in the battle of the sexes against them. I find it interesting. Wish I could do it (I’ve tried), but it’s not me.
“the cultural scripts of the both world have made men throughout the history picking women first in most mating situations, which I don’t think happened with George Sand, Madonna, Binoche, Mirren, Jane Fonda… or Yours truly…. 😊”
I don’t know about the others, but Jane Fonda had bad relationships with men. At least her early relationships. She had a bad relationship with her father, who was cold and withholding. She spent her life trying to get his attention. Thus, she put up with a lot in her early relationships. She was definitely a “pick-me” girl when she was young.
“I’m winding down with the semester and my beaten body, so looking forward to a winter break, envisioning sleeping 🛌 in with a morning tray, strolling in a Rose 🌹 Garden, and watching Sunset 🌅 on a quiet beach… 🏝️ Where is the paradise❓🤔”
It sounds like you found it! Sleeping in, walking around your city (is there no cooler city to walk around in than yours?), eating your leftovers from your T-Day feast. Sounds good to me. 🙂
BBC 9/18/2025 — https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckg3llj5nxdo
“Emmanuel Macron and his wife, Brigitte, are planning to present photographic and scientific evidence to a US court to prove Mrs Macron is a woman.
Their lawyer says the French president and Mrs Macron will present the documentation in a defamation suit they have taken against the right-wing influencer Candace Owens after she promoted her belief that Brigitte Macron was born male.
Ms Owens’ lawyers have responded with a motion to dismiss the claim.
Speaking to the BBC’s Fame Under Fire podcast, the Macrons’ lawyer in the case, Tom Clare, said Mrs Macron had found the claims “incredibly upsetting” and they were a “distraction” to the French president.”
————
If one wants to do something against traditional/societal norms, this is what would happen…
In COO, Macron’s father would shoot him to death before allowing him to marry Brigitte Macron. My 25yrs old sweet, beautiful gay acquaintance’s father (they are from Hong Kong) refused to attend his son’s funeral, after he died of a stomach cancer within the two months of its discovery. ☹️
But rare human “unicorns” seem to have existed throughout the history… the most is unknown, unlike Napoleon or Macron.
To Miss Snow:
What on earth is Candace Owens trying to accomplish? Whatever it is, it can’t be worth what she is putting herself through.
I can’t keep up with you and Miss Marcia, but I did think I caught a reference to Dorian Gray, Ben Barnes and Colin Firth. I did like that movie.
Miss Norma (Marcia),
What I suspected Candace Owens did is that some people (right-wing) can’t accept some celebrity’s very “odd”/extraordinary behavior against traditions, so she just made up that fake news that Brigitte were a man to defame French president. Then Macron felt compelled to defend their union. Anyway, who is Ownes?
Ben Bernes/Colin Firth’ Dorian Gray was my 3rd/4th version of Dorian Gray, which is much better than the older movie or play versions. (I have Oscar Wilde’s play collections in DVD. )
That changing picture in the locked room is so haunting but it tells one psychological truth — people’s appearance is affected by their personality and accumulated behaviors. Their’s eyes can tell their “souls”, if you know what I mean…. That’s what my Glimmer intuitively 👁️ usually saw…
I hope your Thanksgiving is joyful so far.
To Miss Snow:
My Thanksgiving has been uneventful. I was invited to my sister’s, but it’s too far for me, so I stayed home with my chinchillas.
Thank you for asking.
The only other Dorian Gray I have seen is the one from the 1940s, which is much less intense, due to the morals of the time.
Dr. L,
G’day, g’day.
May I prematurely congratulate you on the success of your video “7 Signs of Limerence”? As I predicted a while back, this video seems set to overtake “5 Phases of Limerence” as your third most popular video ever. “7 Signs…” seems to be garnering hundreds of views a day, and will likely assume a highly coveted Number Three Spot in the “charts” in the next forty-eight hours. Not that “5 Phases…” isn’t also still gaining new views…
Your most recent video “Don’t Fight It” is also doing astonishingly well, numbers-wise. It started out strong and it’s still going strong – exactly what creators of quality online content want. After a mere three weeks in the “charts”, it’s already made it into your list of 15 most-popular videos, sitting comfortably at fourteenth place, just ahead of what could be called one of your signature pieces “Midlife Limerence Crisis”.
I’m glad you didn’t change the title of the “Don’t Fight It” video. Savvy career move. Shows you’re an independent actor, and don’t succumb to peer pressure – not even from your readers. Also, a little controversy can sometimes be a good thing. If people don’t automatically understand the title of a given video, I’ll guess they’ll just have to watch the video to learn more! 🙂
Fenna’s second most-recent video “No Contact but Still in Pain” received a significant bump in views. As a fan of both her channel and yours, I’d like to think I’m single-handedly responsible for lifting her profile. But I’m pretty sure the lady has a well-established and very loyal fanbase, and gets views based on her own not-inconsiderable merits. I think she just hit on a topic that really resonated with viewers, and if over 50% of her subscribers decided to “show up for church” one week, that can only be a good thing. Her channel is growing, but it’s growing at a sustainable rate, which I think is ideal for someone working in a niche field. (Therapists presumably can only take on so many clients at the one time).
I’m participating in a different forum at the moment – a forum unrelated to limerence. However, sometimes people post comments there that are both extremely stupid and wildly enthusiastic at the same time. This “stupid-yet-wildly-enthusiastic” vibe reminds me of attitudes people sometimes unwittingly display while deep in the throes of limerence. It also reminds me of my own mindset while in limerence. Few limerents truly realise how far they’ve drifted off course until, of course, they stop drifting. Looking back can be embarrassing…
Here’s hoping strong YT views will translate into strong sales of your book “Smitten”. 🙂
Smitten hasn’t even come out in the US yet. Feels like forever.
Dock Rats
Marianne Moore
There are human beings who seem to regard the place as craftily
as we do—who seem to feel that it is a good place to come
home to. On what a river; wide—twinkling like a chopped sea under some
of the finest shipping in the
world: the square-rigged four-master, the liner, the battleship, like the two-
thirds submerged section of an iceberg; the tug—strong moving thing,
dipping and pushing, the bell striking as it comes; the steam yacht, lying
like a new made arrow on the
stream; the ferry-boat—a head assigned, one to each compartment, making
a row of chessmen set for play. When the wind is from the east,
the smell is of apples; of hay, the aroma increased and decreased
suddenly as the wind changes;
of rope; of mountain leaves for florists. When it is from the west, it is
an elixir. There is occasionally a parrakeet
arrived from Brazil, clasping and clawing; or a monkey—tail and feet
in readiness for an over-
ture. All palms and tail; how delightful! There is the sea, moving the bulk-
head with its horse strength; and the multiplicity of rudders
and propellers; the signals, shrill, questioning, peremptory, diverse;
the wharf cats and the barge dogs—it
is easy to overestimate the value of such things. One does
not live in such a place from motives of expediency
but because to one who has been accustomed to it, shipping is the
most congenial thing in the world.
The Homing Bee
Emily Pauline Johnson
1861 –1913
You are belted with gold, little brother of mine,
Yellow gold, like the sun
That spills in the west, as a chalice of wine
When feasting is done.
You are gossamer-winged, little brother of mine,
Tissue winged, like the mist
That broods where the marshes melt into a line
Of vapour sun-kissed.
You are laden with sweets, little brother of mine,
Flower sweets, like the touch
Of hands we have longed for, of arms that entwine,
Of lips that love much.
You are better than I, little brother of mine,
Than I, human-souled,
For you bring from the blossoms and red summer shine,
For others, your gold.
My Dream
Han Yong-un
1879 –1944
translated from the Korean by Younghill Kang
When you go walking through the clear dawn in the shade of trees,
my dream will become the few little stars
that are staying on over your head.
When during summer days you are sleeping a daytime sleep
unable to conquer the heat, my dream will become the clear winds
that are floating about your vicinage.
When in the still Autumn nights, you sit alone reading books,
my dream will become the voice of the cricket, crying
under your table, “chirrup, chirrup.”
The Locust
Leonora Speyer
Its hot voice sizzles from some cool tree
Near-by:
It seems to burn its way through the air
Like a small, pointed flame of sound
Sharpened on the ecstatic edge of sunbeams.
Harlem Wine
Countee Cullen
1903 –1946
This is not water running here,
These thick rebellious streams
That hurtle flesh and bone past fear
Down alleyways of dreams.
This is a wine that must flow on
Not caring how nor where,
So it has ways to flow upon
Where song is in the air.
So it can woo an artful flute
With loose, elastic lips,
Its measurement of joy compute
With blithe, ecstatic hips.
My Dream
Anonymous
translated from the Sioux by Frances Densmore
When I was but a child
I dreamed a wondrous dream.
I went upon a mountain;
There I fell asleep.
I heard a voice say,
“Now will I appear to you.”
A buffalo said this to me, dreaming.
When I was but a child
I dreamed this wondrous dream.
Brother, I had a moment of weakness and checked LOs Facebook. She’s married now again. To a man my age. I’m having these weird conflicting feelings about being happy for her and an a mount of distrust in him. He might even be older than me. I behaved myself for the most part. I dunno Brother, I want her to be happy with someone but, I dunno …why do I always anticipate the worst? I care for her and want her daughter and her to be safe, well cared for and happy. But …. I hate myself I did this. I feel like in looking for her daughter’s welfare she might have entered a transactional relationship. He’s a man with financial means. Am I overthinking? I hate this Brother. Well at least I have plenty of vodka. I don’t want to think she’s sacrificing herself. But maybe it’s a good thing for them both. Tell me I’m being irrational Brother. Btw I never posted or liked. I just read her recent posts.
To Adam:
I hope you don’t mind me jumping in with my two cents, even though I am not MJ.
I don’t think you’re being rational OR irrational. You don’t have enough information to know what’s going on, whether she’s happy or whether she married this man for transactional reasons.
Quieting your mind is easier said than done.
I think it’s best to assume she fell in love and is happy and is doing well. Then stop checking her Facebook. 🙂
🎩 🥃,
A while back, you asked me so much about Stoicism and its practice. I urge you to use the current situation to practice this challenging philosophy — LO and her life are out of your control, and your guess is IRRATIONAL — you don’t have any evidence to assume any direction, but you imagine dark possibilities…. Why❓ and why❓
What you can manage/control is your mind, work, health, and your relationship with Mamma who is in front of you 24/7…
Take a good care of yourself….
Hello Adam. I am sorry for jumping in, but I have experienced a lot of what you mentioned in this post. In my case also, I wonder(ed) whether LO is happy with her SO, as she had hinted to the contrary on a few occasions. Of course, this led me to buy into the whole damsel in distress theory, even though there was no evidence to prove that things indeed were rocky between them.
Since then, I kept telling myself that it does not really matter. Her life is her life, and I do not have any part to play.
In addition, I am making efforts to make my connection to my SO stronger and stronger. The more I do this, the better I feel, and the less distressed I am about LO.
Regarding checking LOs social, I try and avoid it now, having been burned many times in the past. To be honest, I have the odd moment of weakness, but as of today, my resolve is strong to not engage with LO, its too distressing for me.
Getting out of all this, its very hard, but not impossible. Be kind to yourself, you got this, Adam. Cheers.
Forgive me but I can’t quite remember if you told me she had a history of being in bad relationships or a former man who didn’t take good care of her. Either way it doesn’t appear there is much you could do now anyway. As it has been asked many times in the forum before, what would you do with the information, if you had it? About all you might do is make things weird and insensitive to her needs. Unless you’ve met the guy and he was a downright a$$wipe, I wouldn’t place too many bets on her not being happy. Although I can understand how the revelation of her tying the knot would irritate you.
However, you really can’t blame yourself for what’s happened. Ultimately everything was her choice. Her choice to quit, her choice not to stay in touch, her choice to move on. You wished her well upon leaving. Wishing only she would have stayed in touch.
Pat yourself on the back for the tiny victories here. You remained strict NC for the last few years. Did not comment, like or dislike her posts. Found a faith you identify with and kept your marriage intact. Still doing the best you do can for Momma and the Boys. Try to imagine what it might look like if LO was still your Co-Worker. Would you be any better off? Would your feelings have lead to disclosure? With disclosure, do you know for sure, how that might have affected LO with you being married? I mean there are so many unanswered questions and you could drive yourself insane if you keep thinking you could have intervened and saved her from what ever you didn’t agree with. The fact that you think he is older, does that bother you more or just the fact she might be happy with someone besides you?
Recently I found out my last SO got married over the summer. I haven’t dwelled on the matter but I can say I am somewhat irritated she never bothered to tell me. Even though she was kinda seeing this guy when her and I were still together. I always knew something was up. I never called her on it because I knew I wasn’t the one she was all that interested in. I just didn’t want to go without. Which eventually happened anyway. I suppose if she hadn’t broke things off, I might still be trying to figure out where I went wrong with her. But it doesn’t matter.
As Men I think we’re somewhat hardwired to always try to be fixing things, when in instances like these, they are meant to be left alone. It’s not irrational for you to have good intent here, which I can tell you want to do just by trying to figure it out. I feel like if anything landed on your plate now with LO, all you’d be doing is veering toward the slippery slope again back into the great un-known. Potentially making a big mess in your Family. You have to ask yourself if its worth all the thought you’re putting into it. Because chances are she’s not thinking of you much at all.
It hurts man I know.. But its what you’ve got..
I’m no great Wizard that has a good fix or maybe even the right words to say now but I hope this helps a little..
I’m here for you Brother..
In Solidarity 🤜🏻🤛🏻
Yeah she was divorced from the pos that cheated on her that was the father of her daughters. And then the man when she was with when she was still on the job did the same.
Brother, I just feel this burden to be there for her. A responsibility. I don’t want to be this man to be wrong for her and her daughters. But I got my finger on the trigger if he’s otherwise. Maybe it’s my supposed lack of “purpose” because I know Momma and our boys feel safe with me already. And I need some direction. Some purpose. I do care for them both Brother. And it’s hard maintain that NC. I just want to be there for them.
Miss Norma
You are quite right, quieting your mind is not easy. That’s what alcohol is for.
Serial
Yeah, yeah, yeah stop telling me what I don’t already know. 😁
Miss Snow
Why imagine dark possibilities? Cause it would give me purpose young lady. And that’s my downfall.
ABCD
With a cheating husband and another one that did to her the same, while I worked with her, I struggle to accept he’s good to her and her daughters.
Sir 🎩 🥃,
“Why imagine dark possibilities? Cause it would give me purpose young lady. And that’s my downfall.”
Okay, let’s envision that your imagination is closer to the reality somehow, then why and how would it give you purpose❓what kind of purpose❓
What could you do for her or to him❓punch her legal husband❓or help her in some concrete, psychological ways❓ 🤔 Seriously, I don’t get your reasoning here…
If my memory hasn’t failed me, her daughter is 20/21 years old, an adult already. How can her mother or you continue “protecting” her? Do you think that young lady still needs her mother and new stepfather’s protection❓🧐
I fear that she doesn’t have her new stepfather’s support. I fear that she doesn’t have her new husbands support. I’m worst for it Miss Snow. I don’t how to explain how … yes she’s 20/21 and I’m loading my shotgun. These boys will regret crossing me.
@Adam
I hope this is just the liquor talking and you’re not about to do anything irrational. I feel you would only muddy the water getting yourself involved in this situation. The potential outcome does not seem worth it..
Best to let the Horses run free. Sometimes you need to let others fall on their face, so they see the error of their ways.
Adam, you’ve just had a backslide, that’s all. You’ll be ok. It’s natural to worry about her, but just remember that it’s the limerent brain chemicals making you do it, and that her wellbeing is out of your control and responsibility. Just take care of you. You’ll emerge from the fog in a few days. It’s just part of the recovery process. You’ve come this far.
Nothing like waking up sober to a series of bad decisions ….
Yeah Brother it was just the liquor talking. I am not sure I even want to read the rest of what I posted. It’s probably embarrassing. Anyway ….
I spent last night with Momma. We listened to music together. I’d play a country song I like, and then Momma would play something by the same artist, that she thought I wouldn’t know. I found some new music I like now. No TV, phones (well we were using my phone to play the music) or computers, just the two of us together.
If Momma finds this, she finds it. Maybe subconsciously I want her to. I dunno. But I feel like this is it. I feel terrible. Not just for what I did in relation to Momma, but for myself as well. It just made things worse. Ya’ll are all right, I need to leave her to her life and stop trying to protect her from whatever I think I need to protect her from.
Cloud, thank you for your understanding words. Thankfully I was at least in my somewhat right mind, despite limerence and alcohol, to not make any contact with her. I feel like I at least did right with that.
“Because chances are she’s not thinking of you much at all.”
Brother, not gonna lie, I was kinda mad at you for saying this the other night. But you are right. And maybe that is the last nail in the coffin of my limerence I need to hammer in. The realization that I wasn’t as important to her as she was to me…..
“Brother, not gonna lie, I was kinda mad at you for saying this the other night. But you are right.”
Adam Brother
You know I never mean an ounce of putting you down for what you feel. I understand the dopamine hit she gives you is still very triggering. I get the same way now and then for my Sweet LO but it is the truth. You and I are nothing but former Co-Workers to them. Infact you’ll always have former rapport with yours because you at least established friendship. Whereas I was probably just that random weirdo Dude walking by LOs window everyday. She doesn’t think fondly of me or probably give one hot damn.
I said it to you like that because wasting time on something that will never bear good fruit is just that. A huge waste of time. Dearest Marcia ingrained that into me a long time ago and I never forgot it. (Even though I’ll bet she thinks I have, lol)
Its been over 3 years now I’ve obsessed over a Woman I don’t even personally know. She just physically looks good and looks even more phenomenal on TikTok. For all I know, she’s high maintenance. Something I can easily do without. I know this. I just don’t want to believe it. Fact is if they ever wanted to reach out to us they would. I think thats what still makes me sad at times. Is that she won’t and probably never will. Which is probably why you like to drink it off. Sometimes I wish I could.. 🍻
I wish we were more important Brother, but it just didn’t work out like that. Consider it God’s will..
MJ,
This is the best and most evolved I’ve heard you sound. Seriously.
So stop here. Best to leave a good impression. 🙂 Leave people wanting more instead of wishing you’d zip it. (I’m teasing.) But, really, quit while you’re ahead. Because with you, I’m always waiting for, you know, the other shoe …
Ok. I’m going to go to watch my Bon Jovi videos. 😉
You just like it cuz I gave you a shout-out. 😁
As if you think I would forget your sound words of Wisdom. Never..
Thank you Dear.
Next time don’t be so wordy and just tell me how crazy in love you really are with me. I can handle it. I might even buy you a cup of coffee too. ☕️
You’re worth it because I know I look a whole lot better than that Bon Jovi Dude your watching..
(Good Gawd please tell me its not “Livin on a prayer”
I can almost see you with Aquanet, big hair and bangs. Swingin your head. Total 80s chick..
Holy F—! 🤮🤪😂)
MJ,
“You just like it cuz I gave you a shout-out. 😁”
I didn’t even reference that, did I? 🙂 Seriously … I thought it sounded like beams of reality were coming through the limerent fog. Which is good.
With most people it takes about a year. With you, it’s been a decade, but, you know … baby steps. 🙂
“Next time don’t be so wordy and just tell me how crazy in love you really are with me. I can handle it. I might even buy you a cup of coffee too. ☕️”
I am most decidedly not in love with you. 🙂
“You’re worth it because I know I look a whole lot better than that Bon Jovi Dude your watching…”
I find that very hard to believe. 🙂
“(Good Gawd please tell me its not “Livin on a prayer”
I can almost see you with Aquanet, big hair and bangs. Swingin your head. Total 80s chick..
Holy F—! 🤮🤪😂)”
No, Bad Medicine. “‘Cause if there’s something better baby well they haven’t found it yet … ”
Big hair and a jean mini skirt. A classic look.
To Adam and MJ:
I think this is the most painful thing about limerence, that we mean little or nothing to them.
I would love to be able to get past that.
ND
Me too.. 🥺
MJ
I think that not feeling any better after checking on her is going to stick with me. I realized I felt empty and not as good as I thought I would feel seeing her again.
I appreciate you selling it to me straight. I needed to hear that. Dame Marcia did too with me, from the start, which really helped. (Though she hates that I bring it up still.) So I really don’t have any excuse for a lapse. We are going through enough as a family, outside of this limerence, for me to make such a colossal blunder.
I know I can always count on you here, to keep me on the right track. Whether it is understanding where I am coming for or putting your foot down when I do something I should know better not to do. I always appreciate you my friend.
“We are going through enough as a family, outside of this limerence, for me to make such a colossal blunder.”
Adam,
I think there is usually a connection. My LE went off the charts when I was faced with ongoing family issues I couldn’t (largely still can’t) control. And it still sticks its head back up the most when the family stuff is at its worst.
A lot of us use limerence as a giant distraction when we’ve got stuff on that we find hard to cope with. I think your Brother will agree too. We take ourselves off into that fantasy alt-reality when we’re struggling with our own reality.
Glad you got through without blundering. Solidarity 💪
Absolutely. I was particularly stressed with work the other day and kept thinking about the fact that I might see him. I didn’t, which was a big relief. The limerence is still there in the background, but it’s definitely worse when I’m stressed about other stuff. It’s a comfort blanket. Even though when I do see him, it doesn’t make anything better. Us humans are silly like that.
Ah, the ambivalence of limerence…you want them to be happy but it often comes at the expense of your perceived worth to them.
Well, Adam, checking FB is nowhere near the most colossal blunder you could have made. If you’d made that, Damnit would have waited until you were almost sober and kicked you in the balls.
And I would think less of you if you didn’t.
Unfortunately the lack of initiating any contact isn’t really for the reason it should be. But I guess the fear of upsetting or weirding her out if I did contact her after 3 1/2 years is going to have suffice for now, since it seems to be getting the job done even when I am not sober. So I guess that’s good.
Cloud may I drunkenly say whenever I see your user name all I think of is Cloud Strife. Best RPG. And no I don’t mean that miserable remake SquareEniux did. The original PS1 game.
Yeah, I’m totally as ripped as her. 😂
Miss Marcia,
I’m responding to your post here.
“18? Sounds like he was teasing/flirting with her. And, really, why shouldn’t he see other women? She’s not exactly exclusive with him.”
He was teasing her and played at her. But her LE made her think he’s an exclusive LO with her, while she tried hard to be a “Model” wife and mother. Her mind was messed up by LE.
“She was exiled because of the affairs?”
With some other political reasons. That’s what I heard, ear dropped, through Dad’s chat with Granny. Of course, I could never confirm with any of them for such a disgraceful information. Mom still doesn’t know what I know.
“I’m the same way. I just googled Wikipedia, not to read a critique or review”
For every subject, point, we all have our own responses or opinions due to our personal, cultural background. We should NOT disregard them just because other views might be “authoritative”. Our lens might not be applicable to others, but they’re very VALIDATE to ourselves. Again my stand — no one else can truly validate or invalidate our personality or total beings, except a couple of aspects.
“I’m the former.”
The Western modern culture, since 1960s, encourages risk-taking as if the life would be simply dull if we don’t “rebel” against some rules and just live through routines. So some people tend to push for risks or stimulus or rule breaking, some for worthy causes, some for fun, some for none.
“I think living purposedly can help reduce limerent feelings/tendencies but I’m not sure it can get rid of or prevent them entirely. Limerence is a different kind of feeling than the one living purposefully produces.”
It sounds like to you limerent is inherited. Based on my observations, the East has less LE cases (not reported or observed), because surviving and living well is their major purpose. Resources are limited, so people strive hard to get what they want and self-cultivate endurable, beneficial personality traits. Anything can be learned and acquired, except that bloody, animalistic pair-bond drive.
“As I wrote, secrecy does not have to be involved.”
That occurs only when two sides are both available and are willing to further interactions. If it’s morally illegitimate, one side has to lie — the nature of an affair.
”You and I are never going to agree on this. I’m not negating Fisher’s research, but it’s not something I’m holding out hope for as I have never personally met a couple who were still madly in love years into their relationship. “
Perhaps in Fisher’s research, “in love’ include more than just Mad Eros, but a couple of other “loves” — Philia, Ludus, Pragma, Stroge.. . They involved emotional and mental intimacy that has taken a long time to build. The pop idea of “madly in love” is so narrow and cannot be sustained constantly.
“That being said, I have met long-term couples who seemed to be each others’ person. You could tell they had a good relationship and really liked and enjoyed each other. You could feel it in their energy and how they interacted. That I think is possible, but they’re not swooning every time the other walks through the door after decades together.”
If your couple are tested by Fisher’s MRI, it may show that they are still “in love”. Again, the couple have long established, steady emotional and mental intimacy. Who can be always swooning walking anywhere⁉️ You se what Romanticism has been doing to people’s mind?
“I’m not sure you can. You just have to be aware of it and back away from it if you aren’t able to act on it.”
Your way here is a must. In addition, engage in new artistic, creative, or intellectual activities/hobbies. Appreciate other forms of less intense affections with others. Many people across the world are not appreciative small beauties of ordinary living. There is so MUCH focus on material wealth/popularity as if it can automatically bring one substantial joys/happiness.
“Yes, again, we have very different life experiences. This being a consequence is never going to even occur to me.”
Yeah, in different cultural and political environment, an affair could literally cost one’s life legitimately. That’s why “1984” has a huge significance in depicting the life under totalitarianism.
“You know who is funny and charming? Miriam Margolyes. British actress. Was in the Harry Potter movies and The Age of Innocence (plays the grandmother).
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iVYn8r5ap_Q”
Yes, she’s funny and charming even with her overweight. She’s also in “Vanity Fair”, marvelous performance!
“Is there such a thing as a “good” limerent? 🙂”
Good limerents are caring for LO’s wellbeing, staying in distance, keeping boundaries, listening to LO’s complaints, and ready to help LO whenever LO needs. Meanwhile, they carry on their own life with their own goals…. Perhaps such a dynamic should be called unrequited love, not unrequited LE.
“Other than LO-lite, I’ve only had one other glimmer that was starting to move into limerence after my last big LO. I could feel myself getting weird, getting obsessive, plotting to see him. So I removed myself completely from where I met him (NC) and a few weeks past and he popped into my head, and I realized I hadn’t thought about him in weeks. So it is possible.”
You see, you can squash Glimmer well! My way is to analyze it to “death”. All my glimmers are still occasionally popped into my head, but they CARRY ZERO emotional charge. I have no in testers at all to know who they are as a person or even as an object❗️
[“The act of “pick me” is degrading /demeaning and pathetic for anyone, both men and women….”]
I cringe at some of the stuff I did to get/keep an LO’s attention in the past. I can’t do it anymore.
Try to become “Tanging with me” or “Following me” woman. When you don’t care whether to be picked up by anyone else, they’d begin to follow you. Confidence is the most attractive personality trait, besides that “short lived” subjective, overrated, physical appearance.
“There may be some truth to this; I just don’t think you can say no artist is controlling.”
No. We can never use the words, “ALWAYS”, “NEVER”, “NO ONE” or “EVERYONE”… but “some”, “maybe”, “many”, “few”… in all our statements. It’s just an estimation by proportion of a social/cultural group.
“Yep. She’s flipping the script. Using male tools/weapons in the battle of the sexes against them. I find it interesting. Wish I could do it (I’ve tried), but it’s not me.”
Samantha repels me, just like male libertines. Trying to break a social norm is fine, but an extreme of doing anything is never healthy to one’s overall wellbeing; everyone needs to consider for their psychological health. Moderation is the highest wisdom in both ancient West and East. — Be Smartly Selfish!
“I don’t know about the others, but Jane Fonda had bad relationships with men. At least her early relationships. She had a bad relationship with her father, who was cold and withholding. She spent her life trying to get his attention. Thus, she put up with a lot in her early relationships. She was definitely a “pick-me” girl when she was young.”
I don’t know about Jane Fonda’s youth, but a little bit about the older her and her social activity. I saw only one movie of her, while young, with Alan Delon and can’t remember a thing in it.
“It sounds like you found it! Sleeping in, walking around your city (is there no cooler city to walk around in than yours?), eating your leftovers from your T-Day feast. Sounds good to me. 🙂”
It’s chilly and unpleasant when it’s rainy in my town, like last couple of days. I live a half block away from its signature river, and often take a walk right along its shore (a well paved biking/walking path 20 miles long from the upper tip to the lower tip) watching flowing water and Sunset. Living close to water/river is very important to me, or I feel “suffocating”. 😕
I’m still eating my leftover material, there is much of it… 😊
Typo: “become a “Tango with me” or “Follow me” person”.
Miss Snow,
“But her LE made her think he’s an exclusive LO with her”
There’s no way a guy who looks like that and is available is going to be exclusive with a married woman.
“Mom still doesn’t know what I know.”
You couldn’t discuss it with her? After all this time?
“It sounds like to you limerent is inherited.”
Well, maybe. Who knows? I’m certainly not the only person who’s looking for something beyond the every day. About every damn poster on here is. 🙂
“The pop idea of “madly in love” is so narrow and cannot be sustained constantly.”
No. It has a shelf life. 1 -2 years, if you’re lucky.
” Who can be always swooning walking anywhere⁉️ You se what Romanticism has been doing to people’s mind?”
In the beginning you can. But as I’ve written, it doesn’t last. It can’t. It’s Mother Nature’s way of getting people together to procreate. Once there’s been enough time for that to happen, there’s no longer a biological reason for it.
“Good limerents are caring for LO’s wellbeing, staying in distance, keeping boundaries, listening to LO’s complaints, and ready to help LO whenever LO needs. Meanwhile, they carry on their own life with their own goals…. ”
What LO in the history of limerence has ever done this? Limerence makes limerents selfish, not giving.
“You see, you can squash Glimmer well! ”
Well, yes, but I was less interested in this guy initially than I was with LO-lite, who I noticed right away. The other one kind of snuck up on me and he wasn’t really my type. So it was easier to walk away.
” When you don’t care whether to be picked up by anyone else, they’d begin to follow you.”
Yes, it’s just the ones who follow … I don’t want. 🙂
“Confidence is the most attractive personality trait, besides that “short lived” subjective, overrated, physical appearance.”
This is true. They have done studies, across cultures, and confidence is consistently named as the most attractive quality.
“Samantha repels me, just like male libertines. Trying to break a social norm is fine, but an extreme of doing anything is never healthy to one’s overall wellbeing; everyone needs to consider for their psychological health. Moderation is the highest wisdom in both ancient West and East. — Be Smartly Selfish!”
I don’t agree. She’s living as she wants to. I would love to be able to do that. Have sex like a man. Enjoy it for the moment and for what it is and move on.
“I saw only one movie of her, while young, with Alan Delon and can’t remember a thing in it.”
I would have remembered him. A beautiful man. 🙂
“It’s chilly and unpleasant when it’s rainy in my town, like last couple of days.”
Unfortunately, you’re moving into the colder months. Maybe it’s not so bad when it isn’t raining ?
“I’m still eating my leftover material, there is much of it… 😊”
It looked like a lot of food.