One of the challenges in writing about limerence from a neuroscience perspective is that there is very little original research on limerence, specifically. It’s not a term or concept that has caught on much in the scientific or psychological literature, and so no one has really set out to directly investigate limerence as a defined phenomenon.
There are aligned research studies – especially in relation to “passionate love”, which in many way overlaps with the concepts of limerence – so it is possible to extrapolate a bit, but you have to sift out the relevant parts from studies that were actually designed to test something else. In recognition of this issue, I put together a Guide to limerence aimed at professionals in the therapy and coaching fields that sets out what literature there is on limerence, and summarise the current evidence base.
Given that sparse starting point, the mainstay of my writing and research has always been drawing on well established principles of basic neurophysiology – arousal, reward, bonding, addiction – and applying them to the reported symptoms that limerents experience. The altered state of mind of deep infatuation has characteristic features, and these can be related to the fundamental drives that motivate us. This approach could be called reasonable inference – applying known principles to a new context. Of course, reasonable inference can turn out to be wrong on closer inspection, but we’d never get started if we refused to countenance any idea that didn’t have decades of dedicated research behind it.
Proposing that limerence is person addiction opens up the fulsome literature on behavioural addiction as an explanatory foundation for understanding this specific use case.
It is a balancing act, though. Sometimes the speculation is pushed too far. Sometimes the evidence base is shaky. Sometimes pop science can cherry pick individual studies and overstate a case.
Other times, pop science can turn out to be based on nothing but a mirage.
The curious case of phenylethylamine
When I first started delving into the neuroscience of love and limerence, a lot of the evidence fitted my expectations. There are some papers on scanning brains for people in love, and finding that the reward and arousal centres were lit up. That’s good to know, of course, but I think most people would have predicted that the parts of the brain involved in reward signalling would be active during limerent euphoria (I’m not being snide, that’s what I mean about a basis in well-established neurophysiology).
However, there was one claim that caught me out – one big surprise that sent me down a rabbit hole of research – and it was the identification of a specific “love chemical” called phenylethylamine (or PEA).
It’s easy to find numerous articles and posts that make a very simple and strong claim: phenylethylamine is released in the brain when people fall in love, and it acts as a natural amphetamine. Here is a random sample from a quick Google search:
Phenylethylamine is the hormone-like substance produced at the early stages of attraction that provokes the dizzy sensation some people feel when they’re falling in love. link
The visual component of the phenomenon of “love at first sight” may be explained by the release of a “feel-good” neurotransmitter, Phenylethylamine (PEA). PEA is a natural form of amphetamine and is released when we are first attracted to someone. link
During the heart-pounding excitement of new love, your brain releases lots of phenylethylamine (PEA). PEA functions like a natural amphetamine, so you really are high on love. link
When we ‘fall in love’ our brains become bathed in a soup of phenylethylamine (PEA) a naturally occurring amphetamine. link
Regrettably, none of these articles provide citations to support the claim, but I’m not really in a position to complain about that, given that I rarely bother myself (because it gets tedious quickly and turns a conversational blog post into an academic paper). Nevertheless, the confident assertions above don’t leave the reader in much doubt that the evidence must exist somewhere. There’s no “a pilot study suggests” or “some people think” or “it’s been speculated” equivocation. It’s stated with the clear confidence of received wisdom.
As I came across more and more of these articles, I began to feel a sense of disquiet. I’d been a jobbing neuroscientist for a quarter of a century, and I’d never heard of PEA having a significant role in the brain.
What does phenylethylamine do?
Although I’d never encountered phenylethylamine in the course of my research, the name suggested it was one of the many trace amines that add to the biochemical soup in the brain. I was sceptical about its role, but the neuroscience literature is vast – far vaster than any one person can keep abreast of – and there’s always that nagging doubt that there is some research niche that I might have missed while focussing on the preoccupations of my own specialism.
Could this trace amine be an unrecognised star? Had I missed something big outside my information silo?
No.
Salving my pride a bit, it turns out there is very little published literature about PEA. There was a burst of interest in the 1970s and then 1990s as people were trying to sift through all the possible monoamine neuromodulators that contribute to behavioural regulation, but nothing conclusive came of it.
PEA does resemble amphetamine, chemically, but it doesn’t simply act like an endogenous amphetamine – in fact artificially stimulating rats with PEA causes aggression, not euphoria. High doses of PEA can act as a stimulant, but this could just as well be caused by PEA overwhelming the breakdown mechanisms for dopamine, serotonin and noradrenaline in the brain and messing with those core neurotransmitters.
Other snippets of research had suggestive outcomes. Urine levels of PEA can be altered by a number of factors – most convincingly, intense exercise can increase it, but there is also some evidence that neurological conditions, depression and ADHD in particular, are associated with lower levels of PEA in the urine of patients.
This smattering of observations is interesting, but it hardly adds up to a case for PEA being “the love chemical”. So how on earth did the idea that PEA was a natural amphetamine released in the brain that causes love come about?
It seems to be a weird story of offhand comments, chocolate marketing and repetition.
Chasing the mirage
It took me a while to find a source for the idea that phenyethylamine is a love molecule. It seems to originate with a psychiatrist called Michael Leibowitz, who mentioned PEA in his 1983 book The Chemistry of Love. He was treating patients dealing with depression after a romantic breakup, and found that a class of antidepressants called monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitors helped them. That’s not too surprising, because MAO enzymes break down serotonin, noradrenaline and dopamine – all highly relevant to mood regulation. However, in passing, Dr Leibowitz also mentioned that PEA is broken down by the same enzyme and (as its role in the brain was still being investigated at the time) he speculated that maybe it was involved in the good vibes of love too.
That’s it. That offhand comment seems to have started a snowball rolling.
There’s obviously some appeal to the idea of a “love chemical”, and you can see how it would capture people’s imaginations. Cynically, such a psychologically potent concept makes for a good marketing ploy.
When an enterprising advertiser found out that chocolate contains phenylethylamine, and then half-remembered some connection between PEA and love, he saw an opportunity. Eating chocolate obviously feels good because you get those “love feelings” that PEA delivers. Buy more chocolates on Valentine’s Day!
Phenylethylamine (PEA), an amphetamine-like substance that has been alluringly labeled the “chemical of love,” makes the best case for the love-chocolate connection since it has been shown that people in love may actually have higher levels of PEA in their brain, as surmised from the fact that their urine is richer in a metabolite of this compound. link
Combining the popular appeal of there being a specific love chemical in the brain with the desire for profit among chocolate sellers seems to have created an idea that was too good to die.
The next stage of the story seemed to be a process of circular referencing. A journalist wrote an article that mentioned the association between PEA and love, tenuous as it was, and then that article became the evidence that another commenter used in their own article. This baton-passing continued until everyone forgot where the idea originated from.
It genuinely does seem to be the case that “scientists say” got repeated by enough journalists and writers, in enough venues that are respected, for it to become received wisdom. Everyone cited the people before them, rather that going back to the original source.
I felt a bit dizzy when I realised this. It was discombobulating to realise the whole thing was a mirage.
There is no meaningful evidence that phenylethylamine is involved in the neuroscience of love. It’s not impossible that it might have a minor role in regulating the effects of dopamine and noradrenaline, but it is not a built-in “love amphetamine”.
On reflection, it’s not hard to see how such things can happen. If you aren’t a neuroscientist, why would you be sceptical about phenylethylamine? It sounds much like 5-hydroxytryptamine or anandamide or any of the other esoteric terms that only a specialist would recognise. You basically have to take it on trust that the author knows what they are talking about, and they put their faith in their own “trusted sources” too. Soberingly, it’s almost inevitable that I’ve repeated common myths when writing about fields I know much less well then neurochemistry.
It’s a useful lesson.
Trust but verify, as they say.
Chasing the Woozle
As a final note, I started chasing this story in earnest a couple of years ago when I was deep in the research for my new book. Because of the frustrating merry-go-round and inconclusive nature of it all, I ended up not including anything about it in the final manuscript. Instead, I thought it might make a good blog post one day. Well, obviously, that day has arrived, but in going back now to check my sources for this post I came across a a new “preprint” article that was deposited in July 2024 by Dr Massimo Conti.
Evidently, Dr Conti has chased the same mirage through popular science articles and newspaper stories as me. Admirably, he has put together a thoroughly cited and authoritative narrative about the curious case of phenylethylamine, and he also used the perfect metaphor for the experience: it’s like chasing the Woozle.
So, for anyone who would like to know more about the history, the circular referencing, the marketing chicanery and the unsettling experience of finding that received wisdom is based on almost nothing except repetition, I’d encourage you to download Dr Conti’s paper and read the full story.
DrL,
Maybe it’s time to look even further outside the box. I suggest:
“I took my troubles down to Madame Rue
You know that gypsy with the gold-capped tooth
She’s got a pad down on Thirty-Fourth and Vine [it’s in LA, in case you didn’t know]
Sellin’ little bottles of Love Potion No. 9”
“Love Potion Number 9” – The Searchers (1964)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slmEDJlh8xo
Teika’s a chemist. Let her take a whack at it. Madame Rue is unlikely to give you the recipe.
Get two bottles. Analyze one of them. Light a fire, get some chocolate, and split the other bottle some evening.
But—But—chocolate DOES give me that feeling! 😉
I LOVE CHOCOLATE!!
Oh, the mental gymnastics our brains perform to do the Limerence dance!
I have heard the PEA is responsible for triggering the cascade of dopamine, norepinephrine & oxytocin into our bodies and is responsible for the decrease of serotonin when we think we are falling in love.
I understand it also increases physical and emotion energy.
So there may be more to Phenylethylamine than meets the eye (or brain).
I do argue the case of attachment theory, upbringing and also our introject programming that basically run our internal narrative about ourselves but none of that can occur without the release of that lovely chemical soup when it comes to Limerence.
Will we ever get to the source of which chemical response and in which order and/or sequence that causes Limerence and keeps it around?
Maybe, Maybe not.
But keeping on topic of the brain, one thing that I love about it is it’s Neuroplasticity.
We can reframe and retrain our thoughts.
I feel it’s not a band-aid solution either.
There is much success with CBT for trauma, mood disorders and anxiety.
I believe our own thought process can intervene any biological quirks we may encounter with practice and patience.
Never too old to teach an old dog new tricks.
Before I go.
Snow, LaR, Mila, Trifles, Adam and Imho… Thank You for your kind words on my last post.
Sometimes I get narrow minded and think you all must be tired of my Overbearing Therapy Sharing. LOL
I guess I was wrong!
Your comments were truly heart felt.
As for my apology? Well, I’m Canadian and we apologize for everything.
Wherever you heard that from, Anna, it is not based on published research.
The release mechanisms for dopamine, norepinephrine and oxytocin are functionally distinct from one another, and PEA has no validated role in any of those processes. There is some weak evidence that it might have a minor regulatory role, but it is not necessary or sufficient.
To try and give an analogy, it’s like saying “aspartame is responsible for weight gain in obesity”. There might be some weak evidence that making foods sweeter increases appetite, but it pales in comparison to all the other factors.
Dr L..
I am not suffering from intense limerence it might not even be limerence. My friend said I have zomboy syndrome (some made up crap by him) because I do everything she asks. I’m always happy even if she rejects stuff, so I don’t get lows. Is there limerence like this? Should I be worried?
My friend also said this is a bit worrying because I said if she cheated on me, I would forgive her, even for that. So I don’t know what to do.
Snow,
Hope you had or have a visual feast with Romeo. Still a few hours until last orders at the Inn if you can make it down afterwards.
I remember you saying LO6 was an Oxbridge type. They can be (and lest I seem to over generalise, I do mean ‘can be’ not ‘all are’) kind of exaggerated Brits with a bit of a superiority complex and not so much experience of the real world outside that bubble. Did you find that of him? The guy who narrates the School of Life is much more run of the mill and ‘soothing’ Brit.
Have a look at the channel ‘Very British Problems’ on social media for a take on the more average (introvert – most of them) Brit’s concerns. It’s funny.
“So here is an advanced warning — I may use you as a punching sandbag sometimes, if I can’t verbally “strike” some snowflake-skin types… . 😀”
Personally I am quite alright with this. As I have said before, I never say anything I am not prepared to defend, but if I’m wrong I will admit it. But I would like to dig a little deeper here, from a point of view of developing my understanding (to help me navigate that should it arise) and your self understanding. What is it that makes you want to ‘verbally strike’ such types? I think in general that everyone’s own understanding of their LE situation must be the start point, to which we can then prod and poke and maybe help them move it a bit. This is all you’ve ever done with me, and honestly it has been tremendously helpful. If it wasn’t, I would check out of talking with you about it so much, but I haven’t wanted to. So I am not sure why you would see a ‘verbal strike’ on anyone as a better method than that. This question is asked in a spirit of understanding, not to try and provoke any hostility.
I am almost proud of the fact I have painted my LO to you in such a light that in your words (paraphrased) she is the only LO on LwL you feel true empathy for. It is probably my limerence talking here but it is the least she deserves, really. I know you can only ever get my sanitised half version of the truth about the LE with her. It is difficult to give a fair account on here that balances my not wanting to be limerent for her any longer, with my wanting to do the right thing by her and by our friendship. It is tough stuff – one of the toughest things I have ever been through – but I am doing it. I haven’t quite hit the sweet spot yet of a good equilibrium in these circumstances, but I am getting there just as fast as I can figure it out.
Welcome Alex Lime Brown!
You have a great question, however, there isn’t enough information in your post to determine if you have limerence. Here is a resource that might help you.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/are-you-a-limerent/
If you have feelings for a lovely person and you are both available to pursue a relationship, I encourage you to ask her on a date.
You mentioned that you don’t get lows. They don’t necessarily happen in the beginning. When the lows start, or the intrusive thoughts start, it is just miserable. I hope you aren’t heading in that direction.
Best wishes!
-Lovisa
Hey, Alex. Welcome!
Lovisa’s response is great advice for helping make sense of whether limerence is a factor in your case. And how to respond purposefully.
I’d add that idealising the limerent object is definitely a feature of limerence, but the kind of devotion you’ve talked about isn’t unique to limerence. It might also be linked to self-esteem issues or a high degree of agreeableness and a tendency to look at love as sacrifice.
A good general response to these sorts of wake-up calls (where our friends point out behaviours that they think are holding us back) is to use it as a prompt to start reflecting on the origins of our beliefs and core principles.
This post on drifting through life might also help.
Dear Dr. L and others,
Thank you so much for the uplifting comments! I want to share that I’m still quite young, not quite an adult yet. I will probably expand on my experience if a more relevant thread comes up—maybe this one isn’t the best fit for what I’m going through.
I’ve only had one experience, and this person is the first and only one I’ve ever loved. For years, I’ve felt that I can’t be truly happy unless I pursue a relationship with her. I sometimes feel a bit cowardly about taking that step, and maybe the timing just isn’t right.
The limerence I feel isn’t overwhelming; it mostly comes up when it’s about love. Fortunately, I still enjoy many of my hobbies!
Thank you again for your understanding and support.
Best,
Alex (pseudonymous)
(By the way, it might not be limerence. The quiz said 60%. Sometimes the feelings can be intense, sometimes not, but it’s always there. AI said it may be prolonged infatuation instead.)
Hi Alex,
Good to have you here. Please do feel free to tell us more when you’re comfortable.
Posts labelled ‘coffeehouse’ are where you can ramble about anything at all you want.
There are lots of great people here, with good ideas and suggestions (plus me) – and don’t feel you will be judged. It is hard to believe now but it took me ages to start posting anything.
Look forward to knowing you more
LaR
Alex
LO is a former co-worker. My case sounds like yours. She could do no wrong. Everything was perfect with her. As Lobo sang “everything’s right whenever I am with you”.
Some months after she left the job, she was the topic of discussion, and my boss mentioned to me even though I had a “crush” on her and she left the job “cheating on me” i.e. was dating some other guy, that if she walked back through the door to get her job back, that I would “forgive” her. He’s probably not wrong.
Hi Everyone,
I don’t know if anyone is American here, but, I wanted to offer something for the Thanksgiving weekend. I don’t know about any of you, but for me, weekends are very hard, because my limerence seems to pop up, if I have downtime…Sometimes, I am afraid of how my weekends will be. I’m alone with SO, and ruminating on LO, and instead of being able to relax, I’m going through internal hell.
I have been hard at work trying to disentangle myself, but also trying to understand why I am limerent, almost by nature. I’m trying to see…could I change things for myself in the future? I do want love in my life. I want passion in my life. But, I don’t want to give myself up. I don’t want to feel like this over and over. (I’ve felt like this many, many times. Each time, I believe it’s the zenith of pain. And I have had other Very Hard Things happen in my life. Limerence is…more hellish in so many ways, for me.)
One thing I’ve spent a lot of time absorbing in the past few weeks are thoughts on solitude. I truly feel my limerence is, at core, the fear I am not enough. Never was, never am, never will be. I wonder…enough for….what? who?…but then I see. I’m not believing I, personally, am enough. I am terrified, probably, that I will be abandoned, alone, unable to know who or what I am, unless someone else reflects a version of worth back to me. This is the cliff notes version…the source of my chronic limerence, as a trait.
I have friends…not many, but good ones. Nevertheless, I found this (I’m not sure if I can post links here? Sorry if that’s not ok.) It is ***NOT*** Alan Watts.
It’s someone pretending to be Alan Watts, and making an AI thing. But honestly, I don’t care. The material is thought provoking and well done. It’s far, far, from Alan Watts real stuff, though. No idea who wrote the original. Anyway, I share it here so that if you are losing it over the Thanksgiving Break – it might help you. The ideas might help.
Guys, you have to substitute the word “Woman” for “Man” or…whatever pronoun! There is a “Man” version but I listened to it and I think the Woman one is much, much better.
A Woman With No Friends
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHwHHOSUwuk&t=3s
That’s it. Thanks for this space, Dr. L. I have really been working. Your blog is always a place I come when I have the latest LE happening, and am at rock bottom. It’s nice to have a safe place to just…let it out, and know others understand. Sorry for a breach in decorum if links like this are frowned upon.
CSC
CSC,
I’m not American and so Thanksgiving is not a thing for me – but just to say I do level with so much of what you say, like about how limerence produces a special kind of hell and “instead of being able to relax, I’m going through internal hell” when it comes to weekends and holidays. This isn’t always the case for me, but when it is, it is also a special kind of hell. Who is the one person we’d normally help us to deal with internal hell? SO. Who is the one person we can’t get help from in this case? Also SO. One of the hardest parts I have found (and I have been at this around 18 months now) is how not to show the pain of limerent rumination all over my face when I’m around SO. She has not done anything to merit or deserve that and I don’t deserve her worry about what’s up with me.
You do sound like you’re doing the hard graft to learn what you can from limerence, even though the process produces a lot of turmoil.
All the best.
Hi LaR. I have the same issue as you.
I have not told SO about LO, not told her about all the internal hell that I have been going through all this while.
Even though SO may not know about my internal turmoil, I am pretty sure she knows about LO. This explains her wary behavior towards LO. As I mentioned in another thread recently, SO knowing about LO is a barrier that has helped me not do anything that really crosses the line. I feel same is the case with LO as well, in terms of her SO being the barrier.
Atleast this is the positive that I am trying to see in this situation.
ABCD,
I find that SO can sometimes see or sense the ‘internal hell’. I get an ‘are you OK?’ or a ‘What’s up?’. How to even begin to answer?! I have to fib and talk about something else that’s bothering me.
How do you think your SO has sussed it is LO? I have a bit of the problem sometimes called “mentionitis” – LO is always coming up in conversation with SO. I wonder if that’s a cue our SOs pick up. She brings LO’s name up as much as I do in those conversations.
I think SO trusts I’d never have a PA, and she is right to. And she would not understand the concept of limerence – how someone can feel they love two people at once. So for this reason I think overall she trusts that LO and I are just good friends. But, I wouldn’t say she has no suspicions. She probes me about it sometimes. And I have little doubt that if I said to her “I’ve been carrying feelings for someone else”, she would name LO as first guess. So I don’t think it is a straightforward ‘doesn’t suspect’. Would be interested to know what you think your SO has picked up on to suspect.
Lim-a-Rant,
It’s so interesting, your question…and your answer:
“Who is the one person we’d normally help us to deal with internal hell? SO. Who is the one person we can’t get help from in this case? Also SO.”
You are spot on with this…and it is very, very hard to start to turn that answer into a different one.
Who is the person to help us to deal with internal hell?
It has, and always will be, only ourselves. Others may help, a bit. But Ultimately, it is ourselves, and no one else.
Who is the one person we can’t get help from in this case?
…I’m going to say that’s ourselves, too. We can’t control ourselves. LO has wrested control…and our minds only respond to their call.
Of course, LO is completely ignorant of this, usually. But, it is still a real situation, to us, internally.
I think, if you are really struggling not to show your pain around SO, maybe it’s ok to lie for a while. While you sort it out. Try not to feel guilty about it. Know that you are lying, so that you can give yourself the mental room to sort this out, within. You are NOT lying so that you can go fantasize about LO, or make attempts bring LO into an affair. You are…in essence…buying yourself time and space to make the decisions and take the actions that will really help you.
Don’t feel guilty, or ashamed. You need ALL your strength to heal yourself, to rebuild, and to get to the next place, where you can have a clear head, and chart your course with more a more stable mind, whatever that course may be.
Don’t feel guilty. You’re doing what you can, and you are aware of this as an issue. But you need all your strength. Guilt/shame is such a huge drain. Drop that, and use your energy to create pockets of time to truly restore yourself.
*end pep talk*
:))
CSC
@Lim A Rant
I’m so glad you saw what I wrote. It’s so important to have people who truly do understand what is going on. And I believe that things related to love and attachment really are more torturous for we limerents…exponentially so.
I would say, you mention time with SO, less time around LO (fewer thoughts of LO)…and doing more distracting of yourself. But, I would ask, have you given any time, truly, to your self? The self you have to live with, come hell or high water, through your whole life? I would hope you have also given him some time, even if it’s just a quiet moment. Maybe he has something he wants to do, or express, that nobody else needs to be a part of, not LO, and not SO. A space just for him, and you…
I ask this because of all the things I’ve tried, that is the one that I know I have avoided. I am wondering, as read along here, and post, and write in my journal, how limerents really see themselves. I am wondering if we don’t advocate for ourselves as much as others…and therefore, end up in situations where we feel we have fewer choices to steer our lives. I just…I wonder about that (in my own life, obviously.)
I wish you continued healing. It is so hard to climb up. I know, I know it is. I have been limerent in 3 major episodes for the past 3 years…and this last one has been worse than the priors….so I think I do understand, that sense of lost time, of not being present with SO, and all the complications, and constantly shifting fronts, that happen when one is fighting that internal battle to go forward again.
In sympathy,
CSC
CSC,
Thank you again.
You are perceptive – yes, I also tend to avoid giving that true time to myself that we all need. At the moment, I worry that I’d waste any such time on ruminations about the situation. But it is a habit worth building that needs to start somewhere. So thank you for saying it. Gratefully received 🎁
‘Sympathy’ I feel is the wrong word to use for me. I have not had the smoothest of rides with my SO, perhaps some similarities to you, but beneath everything the last 18 months have thrown at us (not just my LE but it is a sizeable part), I think there is a lot of love and good still there. My LO is a fantastic, life enriching friend – net positive to me even when maximum LE pain level was factored in. Many people on LwL would love to have this ‘problem’ I do of two women lavishing a lot of affection (of their own different and appropriate kinds) on me. I don’t think I have nearly the worst lot of people here, though possibly one of the trickiest to navigate day to day and to find an exit from.
Back to the point about time for myself. I lived my life under enormous external pressure for many years. This includes bits from SO, family, work and yeah I guess myself – took on big projects that took years of slaving away at.
A lot of that was the catalyst for this LE, I think. LO and the things we had in common became part of the escapism. She opened me to things I enjoyed doing that had lain dormant for years – a bit of an inner child / slight rebel side. I cannot make SO into that person for me – she is ‘my person’ in many ways but LO has some unique qualities. People on here talk about the fireworks in the head or seeing the world in brighter hues – that was me earlier on in the LE, still is to an extent. I know you’ll level with all this from bits in your earlier posts.
The trouble is, LO has become quite intrinsic to those bits of my life. So there is a challenge here to isolating out ‘the self’ from all that, vs seeing it as a part of myself that LO awakened and is bound up in. SO knows to a great extent that LO has opened some of these avenues to me, and does accept the fact, or seem to. She does not pressure me to remove LO from my orbit.
I know one day the work will have to be undertaken to separate it all out, though. It doesn’t meet that many EA criteria, but it creates too much duality, even before I start thinking of myself external to either of them. But I know you are right in the point you made. It is a lot to untangle and sometimes all I can do is day-to-day management of the situation. This is the part that *has* got better for me – acceptance and coping. The will and skill to alter the limbo need more work.
I don’t write any of this anticipating solutions – it just helps to say it.
Thanks CSC for asking good questions and for ‘listening’.
LaR,
“I know one day the work will have to be undertaken to separate it all out, though. It doesn’t meet that many EA criteria, but it creates too much duality…”
Could you point out one place or one area in life that duality does not exist, including isolated temples on high mountains? Who are responsible for their existence? Can make a one-side coin, or can you sever light from its shadow, or vice versa? 🤔
Snow,
How I’d answer it depends how philosophical you want to get on the concept of ‘duality’ 🤔 You would drink me under the table if we went too deep into that, but here are my half-baked thoughts:
1. In the sense I believe you’re asking me, then nothing is ever indelibly separate from anything else
2. I could argue (probably the idea is from Buddishm) that nothing is separate OR dual, but instead “all one” (interconnected)
3. In respect of the self, do we have multiple interconnected selves, or just one self with multiple facets? Maybe this is a moot point, because the two are variations on the same thing, just different labelling? What do you think?
4. In respect to my LE I was referring to a notion of something like the emotional version of non-monogamy as the (real or potential) duality.
I think 4 links to 3. To what extent can the different parts of oneself exist in harmony within the one overall self – short term or long term? For clarity, this is a philosophical level question, rather than one to reopen the door to the debate of ‘would I be prepared, given the choice, to lose my MFF as a friend?’ (To which the answer is still the firm no which has been consistent since the day I landed in this LwL parish).
LaR,
Just have a quick response to your #3, before my fully booked day.
Based on Jung, there is a big Self (always capitalized S) that includes conscious (a very small portion) and Unconscious (capitalized). The formal is known, and latter fragments shown through dreams. There is shadow (repressed parts), and light (persona). All is connected but categorized.
Based on International Family System (google or AI it), there are three major parts in each of us — Vulnerability, Protector, and Self. And their international connections. Primarily deal with the logical, conscious parts. (Movie: “Inside Out) — Identify the first two parts and use Self to solve one’s psychological issues.
Stoicism — What’s in one’s control, what is not. Also avoid the Unconscious. Focus on building mental and emotional shield, while maximum one’s effort to better one’s own and others’ life.
Buddhism — All is related to desires, natural or neutered, nothing is permanent. Impossible to get rid of desires, so watch, accept and live in peace with them, while wisely recognize intangible harms and do NOT knowingly inflict them to oneself and others.
The bottom root of sufferings based on the above theories — IGNORANCE and LAZINESS.
Later.
Found this in my study notes back in 2021. Just share them here, in case anyone is interested.
****
50 Subtle Addictions: the greatest subtle addition is not even considered as addition (it’s promoted by the society).
Conceptual activities themselves are not additions, but one’s need, craving for and clinginess to them ARE (occasionally doing them is “normal”, not addictive)
1. Being loved — need it, crave for and attach to it, people pleasing.
2. Judgement and criticism (can be highly paid as a profession).
3. Being right and proving others are wrong.
4. Arguing and debating.
5. Anger, hatred and racism. (wrath – one biblical sin)
6. Being moral and good.
7. Preaching to others.
8. Ideologies and pet ideas
9. Getting attention, being liked, and approved
10. Arrogance and cockiness, (pride – another deadly sin)
11. Success, career advancement.
12. Money.
13. Material possession and luxuries.
14. Collecting and hoarding.
15. Security: finance, career, emotion…
16. Worry, anxiety and fear.
17. Negative self-talk.
18. The past, old wrongs — reacting to them (un)consciously.
19. Technology and gadgets — does not change quality of one’s inner life.
20. Being efficient and productive — missing the essence of life. (CEOs)
21. Min-maxing — optimizing.
22. Competition and winning.
23. Being special and being best
24. Praises, awards, popularity, and fame
25. Multitasking, getting distracted easily (by internet)
26. Helping people and changing people
27. Family
28. Companionship and being with other people, need validations from others
29. Suffering, acting drama, self-sabotage.
30. Control, power, getting things in your way.
31. Being negative, complaining and whining
32. Victim mentality
33. Thinking, theorizing, philosophizing, speculating, over-conceptualizing.
34. Analysis
35. Boasting and show-boating, vain-glory
36. Physical comfort
37. Laziness and procrastination, (sloth- another biblical sin)
38. Perfectionism.
39. Depending on others to support you.
40. Physical appearance — your own and others’, trophy family and friend circle.
41. Negative motivation.
42. Guilt, guilting oneself about everything one is doing.
43. Jealousy and envy.
44. Seeking newness, excitement, fun, and danger,
45. Gossiping and bad mouthing, talking behind people’s backs
46. Cleanliness and order
47. Cheating and stealing, taking short cut.
48. Lying, manipulating and exploiting.
49. Mystical state
50. Hoarding knowledge, reading books and learning facts just for the sake of impressing others.
Addiction is never in activity itself; it is a grove that has been carved in one’s mind.
Define it: Stop doing the thing in question for 7 days, to see if the craving kicks in.
Methods to get rid of them
1. Find the root of addiction:
2. Select one addiction:
3. Look into the past, write down a list of how I have manifested this addition.
4. How is it so important to my identity?
5. What I am escaping from?
6. Why do I need this addition?
7. What would an alternative look like?
8. Could I let it go off this core aspect of my identity?
9. Set a clear, strong intention to make a change. (Wear a wrist band to remind me an old addiction as it happens.)
10. Replace “the baby blanket” with Being (not void). Take a solitary retreat.
Mantra: When I criticize, I rub off my future and my life dreams…
*****
I have a lot of them, which I’m closely, almost painfully watching… 🫤
LaR, (Anna)
You’ve for it, so here goes — there is a colored picture matching every part, really cool! But I can’t attach them here.
IFS is more realistic or related to our psychological life than Greek Mythology. Everyone can relate them, analyze them by oneself, express them to professional therapists or ghosts here —
***
Parts — Internal Family System
(Movie “Inside out” is based on IFS)
PROTECTORS
Protecting from facing, experiencing one’s vulnerabilities
1. Procrastinator
2. Rebel, antisocial
3. Busy Caregiver
4. Addict, disconnected
5. Dependent
6. Dictator, narcissist
7. Lazy bone
8. Hoarder – messy mind
9. Neglector, disorganized
10. Joker — wearing mask
11. Ignorant – superficial, fake positivity
12. Stuck in the past — over sentimental
13. Hypocrite (annoyed)
14. Superman — “savior” of others
15. Destroyer
16. Alcoholic
17. Greediness — materialistic
18. Wishful dreamer— illusion
19. Fighter for “honor”— winning
20. Obsessed achiever -pride
21. Coward attacker
22. Busybody — rat-racer
23. Problem solver, excessive charity
24. “Carrier” for the world
25. Non-confirmer
26. People pleaser – liar, flattery, and white liar
27. Ego, pride, peacock
28. Sex/dating addict
29. Self-defender
30. Skeptic, cynic
31. Logic, rationality
32. Judge
33. Instinctive firefighter
34. Disassociated outsider
35. Aggressive, possessive lover and “protector”.
36. Multitasker
37. Guard —caution
38. Puzzlement, ambivalence, confusion
39. Intellectual – condescendence
40. Anger
41. Self-absorber , detachment
42. Anxiety, schemer, controller
43. Perfectionist
44. Inner critical voice (parental)
45. Vanity – self critic
46. Competitor — performer
47. Fantasy maker
48. Rigid rule follower
Universal human vulnerabilities-wounds
Need and can be healed and unburdened with the presence of SELF
1. Public ridicule
2. Low self-esteem , wrongdoer, apologizer
3. Gigantic primal fear
4. Loneliness— avoidance – recluse-depression
5. Abandonment, desperation
6. Hopeless and helpless pain
7. Guilt — regret
8. Self pity — uselessness
9. Public humiliation
10. Self shame, embarrassment
11. Abandonment, sadness, grief
Innate SELF (not Buddhistic emptiness or detachment)
Often hidden or sleeping
1. Acceptance
2. Curiosity
3. Compassion, care
4. Carer, fatherly nurturer
5. Joy
6. Harmony
7. Presence, connection
8. Carer, Motherly nurturer
9. Peace
10. Sunlight, clarity, masculinity
11. Wisdom— guider
12. Confidence, femininity
13. Courage
14. Creation—imagination
15. Inner freedom
16. Connection, love
*****
To stay in Self— the lifetime tasks!
Lim-A-Rant,
I think our situations may be close, actually. I can completely relate to what you say about the side of me – the PLAYFUL side, that was awakened by LO.
I don’t even think it was my youthful side. I think it’s the side that was part of me as a child, and is still part of me now. It’s not a child. What has happened, though, is that the choices I have made have kind of starved it…and it wants me to unstarve it.
LO is the easiest way to unstarve it. But, not the healthiest, if I see the whole picture. With LO in my life, I cannot think clearly.
I will need to tell that wonderful part of me to sit tight while I figure this out. I will need to promise her, seriously, that I will hear her, because she is very important.
Like you, I don’t think I can do that with SO. Which is what gives me serious pause. I don’t want to be destructive, here, so I am speaking only of myself — but I feel… I feel like what is the point of having SO if I cannot also have joy. At this point, I feel like I have a meal in front of me, but it’s things I don’t like to eat. And I can’t make myself like them. I can be grateful for food. But…a part of me that is not under my control…wants more taste.
I’ve been a limerent my entire life. The 3 I mentioned are just the latest episodes. But, I do believe I can help myself. This morning it occurred to me that this has been so, so difficult, if I can help myself live with my limerent tendencies, trust myself to guard my inner peace, learn new things and grow….and in doing so, enjoy my life and inner sovreignity…that reward might be sweeter than anything I have ever known. (<– not hyperbole).
🙂
@ Snow
Wow, those are some lists. Have you ever seen the Wheel of Emotion? I would be fascinated to try and pair each item on these lists with a specific emotion. I am guessing it’s kind of the same thing, in some ways.
When you say “Stay in self – the lifetime task” I find that really interesting – like, the self is a space one puts themselves inside.
These days, as the storms of emotions hit me, I’m thinking more, that my self is the dome of the sky, the dome of night…above all of it, watching it, yet not part of it. More serene, constant. Something I can trust. I cannot always BE this self, because much in our human world requires action, emotions…responses. But, I can know this self. Even if other people are around, I can know, this self, is there.
These ideas you’ve shared from your notes are all so thought-provoking, and very beautiful…not to mention helpful.
thank you for them. 🙂
CSC and Snow,
Some amazing thought-provoking material in there from both of you today, thanks so much.
Snow, I really like the International Family System (I’ll come back to it in a future post).
CSC, I could get really pulled in to the ‘compare and contrast’ in our situations! I am impressed with how you keep bringing your posts back to the self. Not about SO or about LO so much as about *you*. It is good to keep hearing that as a reminder to me and the rest of us. I hope you can really make it work and sustain for you. It doesn’t mean SO can’t be part of it for you once you can think clearer, but nor does it mean he must be. I have faith you’ll work it out, but won’t rush your decisions.
To take it back to my SO, I find she can meet elements of what my self needs and wants, but not all of it. Snow would remind us it is never realistic to seek all of that from one person, and that we’re not wrong to draw on other sources. Even in monogamy it is possible to nourish the soul from lots of different sources (not least ourselves). I guess what I was saying before is that there is a specific part of my self that LO nourishes (I paraphrase but in your ‘easiest but not best way’) without obligation. It relates to a host of things but I have mentioned it before as connected through spontaneity. She will always have a crazy off the wall idea to pursue which is basically a side of her I am just nuts for! I can’t transfer that part to SO because it is not her character in the same way. There are some other parts of LO that make me doubt our potential long term compatibility in a relationship, versus having the friendship without that complication which just ‘works’ pretty effortlessly (when I remove limerent brain’s trickery).
The part of my self that she appeals to assumed hyper importance for me in the last couple of years. The reasons are similar to yours. And I realise, LO did not do that to me. Like you, it was always in me, and needed waking up, watering and nourishing. It would have somehow happened without LO eventually. LO was in the right place at the right time.
My LE differs from many here in that LO is not a skewed fantasy. Perhaps in the romantic sense, I don’t know. But I do know she is a very real, consistent and positive influence in my life in other ways. But if I am ever to sit truly comfortably with that again (ie. with her authentically as a friend, not a limerent object), I will need to find ways to listen to and support a version of that ‘playful’ (your word but apt) part of me that relies less on the person behind the label ‘LO’.
Thank you again for chatting it through 🙂 I wish you luck with the next bits of your journey and look forward to hearing updates.
https://youtu.be/f55QO2isoKM?si=aMW8ZYv0fbu3YC7M — Why we are all addict.
I agree with the above statement more and more since I heard about it maybe 5 years ago.
https://youtu.be/ZBXZojt6dpM?si=enFFMpNe0A4llTeY — How to Parent Yourself
After struggling for 8 years, I could parent🦉 myself 90% now; the other 10% is still that 6 and 13 year old kid, but more clearly spotted and quickly calmed and cared for… 🐤
Snow,
I really like everything about those School of Life videos, from the content, to the visuals, to the voice of the guy. (I noticed the 🔥🐦 in the second).
After watching the first, ‘watch next’ took me to this one which I also thought was profound:
How to weaken the hold of addiction:
https://youtu.be/Qh9N44-IsCI?si=hw2UWCORcP0p6mVc
It’s a simple enough technique but one often forget: ‘what were we doing and feeling immediately before the addictive behaviour occurred?’
When I
CSC,
“Have you ever seen the Wheel of Emotion? I would be fascinated to try and pair each item on these lists with a specific emotion. I am guessing it’s kind of the same thing, in some ways.”
I have the Wheel of Emotion in my phone, but rarely looked at it; it does not tell me where I got certain types of emotions or reactions, given the same situations to another person.
“When you say “Stay in Self – the lifetime task” I find that really interesting – like, the self is a space one puts themselves inside.”
Based on IFS, Self compresses many parts — personality traits born with us or cultured positively or negatively down the road. Our conscious mind and Unconscious is a vast space — Self. This is in line with Jungian theories. I guess “Stay in Self” in Jungian world means being consciously aware what we think, feel and do in waking hours and watch what our Unconscious does in our dreams — manifesting our shadowy parts — anxieties, pains, fears, etc. in the space of Self.
Staying in Self in IFY means to me, is that we have and could cultivate and strengthen that 16 parts of Innate SELF to manage our 48 Protectors (not all exist in one person) while taking a good care of that 11 Wounds (not all in one person). We need to have faith in our Innate SELF. (Having blind faith in evolving, uncontrollable others, a lot of whom ignorantly or puzzling carry their own protectors and wounds, is very unwise if not amount to stupidity). If lucky and wise, we can only truly manage our own life — live purposefully. If everyone does this, then the whole society is healthier.
“These days, as the storms of emotions hit me, I’m thinking more, that my self is the dome of the sky, the dome of night…”
In a way, one’s Self is one’s entire, subjectively “objective” world; everything viewed, learned, experienced externally has to be perceived, interpreted, and then registered as “truths” in our mind/psyche. A piece of wood board with four legs is a table to our eyes, but might mean something else in an alien’s mind.
“above all of it, watching it, yet not part of it. “
I disagree with “not part of it”. Based on IFS or just our lifetime learning, we see and use 16 parts in Self to balance Protectors and heal our vulnerability parts. You can’t take your Self out of your mind/psyche.
“I cannot always BE this self, because much in our human world requires action, emotions…responses. “
As said above, “I” is a part of SELF, otherwise, who is “I”? Your inner parts have engined all your (in)actions, emotion… responses in our human world. Self is not some mystical concept.
“But, I can know this self. Even if other people are around, I can know, this self, is there.”
We’ve been living with/in “this Self” since our birth. Without other people around living in a social vacuum, Self would have lost its meaning. Self needs a reference — interactions with others (not all the time, of course), to manifest. In a hypothetically, completely isolated island, you’re just a breathing being like any other plants. You would not even have language to socialize.
I highly recommend the cartoon movie “Inside Out” if one wants to know about IFS, a module used in (self) psychotherapy world. What I like about it is that it does not demonize our unwanted, negative personality traits, actions and emotions, but define them as positive “protectors” to shield our accumulated wounds and traumas — everyone has them, no matter how “perfect” one’s childhood or their whole life up to this point.
I took a paid course in IFS in 2019 and analyzed my vulnerable parts, protectors and SELF parts back then and yesterday (LaR’s questions reminded me the forgotten IFS lately). I’m content to see that my Protectors have been slowly, steadily reducing and wounds have been scaring satisfactorily, but not completely yet. I still get triggered from time to time, but I now know why and how — pinpoint accurate with my vital memories.
LaR,
Thank you for the clip link. I’ve been following “the School of Life” for years and have finished several “Alain de Botton’s” books; but I can’t remember all the tapes, even watched 4-5 times. Botton’s gentle/kinder/tolerant treatments of people’s complex emotions and behaviors equal DrL’s tone of voices. (Besides, I love hearing cultured British accents, LO6’s Brit accent is a bit snobbish, too soft to be audible even by native waiters).
As a busy peacemaker (Protector # 23), you do seem to have an ability to temper down my sometimes quick fighter temperament (Protector 29). So here is an advanced warning — I may use you as a punching sandbag sometimes, if I can’t verbally “strike” some snowflake-skin types… . 😀
I’m going to tutor Romeo this evening, after his 6-week business trip in COO — a completely glimmer-free, visual feast! 😜
Snow,
My reply ended up totally in the wrong place, so here it is again, hopefully in the right place now:
—
Hope you had or have a visual feast with Romeo. Still a few hours until last orders at the Inn if you can make it down afterwards.
I remember you saying LO6 was an Oxbridge type. They can be (and lest I seem to over generalise, I do mean ‘can be’ not ‘all are’) kind of exaggerated Brits with a bit of a superiority complex and not so much experience of the real world outside that bubble. Did you find that of him? The guy who narrates the School of Life is much more run of the mill and ‘soothing’ Brit.
Have a look at the channel ‘Very British Problems’ on social media for a take on the more average (introvert – most of them) Brit’s concerns. It’s funny.
“So here is an advanced warning — I may use you as a punching sandbag sometimes, if I can’t verbally “strike” some snowflake-skin types… . 😀”
Personally I am quite alright with this. As I have said before, I never say anything I am not prepared to defend, but if I’m wrong I will admit it. But I would like to dig a little deeper here, from a point of view of developing my understanding (to help me navigate that should it arise) and your self understanding. What is it that makes you want to ‘verbally strike’ such types? I think in general that everyone’s own understanding of their LE situation must be the start point, to which we can then prod and poke and maybe help them move it a bit. This is all you’ve ever done with me, and honestly it has been tremendously helpful. If it wasn’t, I would check out of talking with you about it so much, but I haven’t wanted to. So I am not sure why you would see a ‘verbal strike’ on anyone as a better method than that. This question is asked in a spirit of understanding, not to try and provoke any hostility.
I am almost proud of the fact I have painted my LO to you in such a light that in your words (paraphrased) she is the only LO on LwL you feel true empathy for. It is probably my limerence talking here but it is the least she deserves, really. I know you can only ever get my sanitised half version of the truth about the LE with her. It is difficult to give a fair account on here that balances my not wanting to be limerent for her any longer, with my wanting to do the right thing by her and by our friendship. It is tough stuff – one of the toughest things I have ever been through – but I am doing it. I haven’t quite hit the sweet spot yet of a good equilibrium in these circumstances, but I am getting there just as fast as I can figure it out.
Snow
10, 24, 30, 31 and 36 of the protectors also resonate (and you are right about 23)
11 and 4 are big among the vulnerabilites (I know why, and it is not all rational)
oops – Lim-a-rant
…and by “lie” I mean, make up a story about why you seem distant, or why you aren’t 100% available for SO as you might have been, prior.
For me, this has taken the form of …saying I’m stressed about work. Or, I didn’t sleep well. Or that I have to run an important errand….Or…I’m worried about the end of Democracy. You know…little stuff like that. 😉
I may be ruminating about how the hell I’m gonna help myself crawl out of the LO-hole…but, it looks like I’m just upset because I have a lot of Christmas cards to send, and no time to do it. That kinda thing.
CSC,
You have really kind and wise words there, thank you. I won’t comment much as I can’t really improve or expand on what you’ve said. Your post shows real empathy with my situation though.
Please get yourself over to the coffeehouse / Amoors Inn and place yourself an order for something (coffee or stronger) on the house once we finish rebuilding this bloomin’ wall.
I’ve been reflecting about things with SO. I have been limerent for well over a year. So I am passing some milestones of regular events that SO and I have. I think back to some of these a year ago with horror at how much LO was intruding in my brain then. This year, she is still there, but it is calmer and milder. Not too many ‘are you OK?’ chats with SO lately. I have also managed to spend quite a lot of time with LO recently and just feel more like we can just enjoy being friends. The level of exposure to her is quite a lot. But it hasn’t set off the cold and warm cycles or all my old fears about losing what I have with LO either through a quick burn or a slow fade. I just know we’re Ok. I am also improving at distracting myself. It’s slow going, but it’s getting better. That can be hard to see because of how slow the progress is.
I hope all this starts to feel true for you too, however things pan out with your SO. Now get on with writing those cards 😅
Hi CSC. Its really good you are thinking about why you have LEs.
I have not reached that state, yet, though it is something I need to visit, at some point in the future. I do realise I have some self confidence issues, and I am very introverted by nature. I am counteracting that by losing weight, trying to talk more to people. Its definitely a work in progress.
I agree, weekends are tough, as one has spare time, and the mind goes towards LO. Even after all this time, I cannot believe how much bandwidth LO still occupies in my brain. Not too long back, I used to only get distressed about it. Now I just let the thoughts come, try to downplay them, and try to keep moving. It is not easy, thats for sure, but is something that I need to do, for my own mental balance. I also try to find stuff to do on weekends – more exercise than usual, reading books, watching shows, sports, spending time with SO. This helps take my mind off LO.
I wish you a great weekend.
Thanks ABCD…I survived. 🙂 It was crazy for a bit, but…made it!
Definitely had storms of LO pop up. And, frustration with SO (because I’m kind of shutting down a lot). But, I am resolute about moving forward in my life, not lingering, crying on my office couch, for any longer. I have to reclaim, rebuild, my inner power. Not that I had much inner power to begin with…which is the real problem!
I too am introverted. I’m depressed much of the time, but I also use my depression to fuel my sense of humor, and my silliness which is off the charts, and something I love about myself. I feel like an outsider almost ALL the time, unless I’m with blood (nuclear family).
I’m glad you’ve found some positive habits and interests to take your mind off your LO. I am trying to do the same. My heart may be shattered, but I have started making jewelry, which is going really well. Picked up the ukulele and learned some Xmas tunes. Writing in my journal. Learning to do a cartwheel. The other day, I did some yoga, and was able to achieve an arm balance I had been working on for a long time. As I balanced there, I felt myself get stronger, just for that moment. I realized, I achieved this. Nobody else. This is mine, and THIS is ME. This is the me that has been pushed aside by my “addiction”. By falling into the LO-Hole…
I am starting to think…these other activities, while often not potent enough to take my mind off LO, are like little seeds I’m putting in the ground. You can’t see them growing, but they are. One day, they will poke their heads up, and you will see them, and not see LO. You will see the fruit of your labor, and not just something you are doing, still in LO’s orbit. They’ll be their own thing, and part of you, alone.
I know you’re working hard, too. And, to me, it sounds like someone who exercises, reads, socially interacts when he feels like it, and works on himself, is a valid and valuable person. I know it feels like hell that your LO doesn’t see you the way you want her to. But, that does not change that you are a person who is working hard, and is a person of value and substance….even if you don’t feel like it.
If you can get yourself to a stronger place, you will be…stronger. In all ways!
In solidarity,
CSC
Thanks for the support CSC, means a lot.
Its great that you picked up some hobbies, yoga is great, and very therapeutic. Writing a journal sounds pretty awesome too, as does playing an instrument, maybe I’ll start these activities. Its always good to pick up a new skill.
Currently, I am feeling quite okay with respect to LO. Not anxious, or sad. I seem to be much more stable mentally. I am hoping this feeling continues. Have not felt like this for a long time, and it feels great!
Wish you the best.
ABCD,
That is amazing to hear! I am so glad you are enjoying the feelings of restoration and stability. That is fantastic.
I can feel that if I keep going, and put myself first, and try hard with NC, I will crest the hill and start to feel truly restored. Right now, I’m kind of…seeing the light at the end of the tunnel….but hoping it’s not an oncoming train. haha 🙂 But, I’m better than I was, too…I was reallllly not in a good way.
Yeah, Yoga has saved me. I am a former dancer, and missed moving around. I have also really loved the patience it requires. And, the steady improvement that comes with simply showing up and doing it. Playing ukulele very very badly has also been a balm. I’m so bad it’s like…I have to forgive myself. And that has been illuminating. 🙂 The ukulele itself may not forgive me though. Poor thing.
Wishing you continued restoration – and a continued upward trend for mood and life in general! :))
Hi everyone,
Just discovered this website a few days ago and haven’t been able to stop reading a lot of the comments. I must say that it has already helped me in some way, but I am still in a rollercoaster ride.
Can’t tell for sure if LE is happening in my husband’s life. There seems to be a lot of evidence ponting towards it.
After I came across some YouTube content about LE (from a Dutch woman named Fenna) I decided to do some more research. That’s when I came across this website.
To summarize my story, my husband and I had a couple difficult years because of me not feeling well mentally and physically. My dad had a long sick bed struggling with depression and that made us being separate for extended periods of time (we live in a different country then my family does). After his death, I helped my mom to put her house for sale. So another period of separation. We lived on a small farm, so my husband has to do all of the work on how own and couldn’t have breaks.
The moment that all of this was behind us, we had to finish a lot of projects around our house. So again no time to relax together and enjoy our company. I didn’t have time to grieve and just was hanging in there on survival mode. I didn’t know how to get in touch with my feelings and I do realize that I wasn’t fulfilling his needs.
My husband started to have more and more headaches and ended up having a depression. Unfortunately I think that he thought it was not possible to talk with me what was going on inside of him.
Everything came to the surface March this year. I had been on a trip and just one week after that he would go on a long trip to see his daughter. Soon after his arrival there I noticed that something was off, but he didn’t want to talk to me about it on the phone. I felt that he hardly had any patience for me and everything felt forced.
I tried not to let my attachment wounds and co-dependency run the show and avoided as much as I could to try to control the situation. It was the start of an awful period that is still going on at this moment.
When he returned home he told me that he met another woman, but assured me that they didn’t have contact anymore. It took me a while to convince him to tell me the truth. I just could notice so many difference in his behaviour. He told me that he discovered that we are in a toxic relationship. During the biggest part of his trip he didn’t have headaches anymore.
After he admitted having met someone he wants to explore things with, I asked him to stop having conversations and work on our marriage. He refused. It drove me nuts, my well-being got an even bigger beating.
Half of July I decided to go to my country of origin to get some therapy. Often he said to me that he wished that I started therapy 5 years ago.
It was a struggle to be together. Often I felt like there was a third energy in the house. He was so cold and distant towards me and said things that really hurt me. Also he had a different interpretation of how my behaviour was the last couple of years. It’s obvious to me that our dynamic doesn’t work. I know that I have to work on myself, have been doing self-reflection for a long time and no the patterns that keep me stuck. It’s just really difficult to prioritize my own well-being and don’t think about him. I have to get stronger on my own.
We met 10 years ago and from the first moment I saw him there was an immediate connection between us. Because of the many synchronicities that led to our encounter, I really felt that we were destined to be with eachother. For the first time in my life I had a buddy that I could share everything with. I was not used to talking about my feelings, but he taught me how to do this. He taught many things. At first I thought he was my twin flame. I read a lot about it on the internet and the whole situation made more sense. Now I think he was maybe just a catalyst for my personal growth or I was in a state of LE after our encounter. The obsessive thinking was huge in the beginning and still now I have problems to let him do his thing. It’s just weird what happened this year. I thought we could overcome everything together, that we are buddies for life.
He says that he still loves me a lot. That we match on all levels, just the sexual part hasn’t been good enough. I know I still struggle with having a balanced sexual energy and my fatigue didn’t help on top of that.
He says with the LO the sexual part is amazing. But he doubts about everything else, he wants to explore what is there for him in the connection with the LO.
After I started therapy in July I have been back twice. One week to sign the promissory contract for the sale of our house. End of October three weeks for the packing of all of our stuff. It was really difficult for me to work non-stop to get everything ready and to deal with the awkward situation in the house. I just don’t recognize my husband anymore. I know he never wants to get into a depression anymore and he needs excitement in his life. Sometimes I think that he didn’t really get out of the depression and it’s still lingering.
The time that I wasn’t providing his sexual needs, I now know that he watched a lot of porn that he never talked about with me. I said to him in the past that he could have sexual encounters with other women, but I for sure didn’t mean an emotional affair. He told me that he also didn’t plan any of this.
He leaves the future open, that it depends on how we are growing from this situation. For me it’s still difficult to accept the situation. I know I have to.
I have to really start to take care of myself. When I arrived at my mom’s place last Sunday I decided not to contact him. Before leaving I told him that he should send me a message when there is something urgent. Today I wanted to know about the financial situation after the sale and I didn’t get any response.
In the past we would speak to eachother every day and I know I am the one that wants some distance, but it still hurts me that I am not a priority in his life anymore.
His LO is now the one he turns to and that has been already for a long time.
I don’t know if I handle things well, but I also don’t want to have the feeling that I am the third wheel on the wagon.
The whole 8 months have strongly made me doubt myself.
I want to take life in my own hands, I know it is vital. I just don’t know how to feel everything that is going on in my body and not getting swept away by it.
Thank you for reading my story. This site feels like a safe haven, just because people can somehow relate what I am going through.
Welcome to LwL!
If you haven’t found it, there’s an index link at the bottom of the page. There’s a lot of information there.
There’s a blog somewhere on LwL that has a link to one of Fenna’s videos. The can’t be two Dutch women with the same name talking about limerence.
Thank you for the quick reply, I will check it out!
Welcome to LwL, Confused. Thanks for sharing your story.
You are right, this place is like a refuge where we visit to just share out thoughts, and get advice and pep talks from all great LwL friends.
Thank you ABCD, so nice to hear this
Hi Confused, you are going through some difficult struggles right now. I read through your post twice and I couldn’t find any questions. Maybe I missed something. There are many things that I would like to discuss, but I’m holding back because I don’t think you are looking for unsolicited advice. And, quite frankly, some of my questions for you are simply to appease my curiosity and so asking for details feels wrong.
Do you have any questions for our community? It’s okay if you’re just here looking for support. If support is what you seek, I suggest you read the following article as well as the comments section.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/dealing-with-limerence-in-marriage/
Good luck!
Thank you Lovisa, I am always open for advice. Really struggling right now and maybe it would help me to be able to confirm things my intuition already tells me.
I have no problem with you asking me questions. I’ll let you know when I find them too difficult to answer.
Will for sure look at the link!
Basically I am feeling that this is a group where I could find support in a very difficult fase of my life. Don’t have any clear questions, I just would like to find out if it’s really limerance my husband is dealing with and if I have those tendencies also within me.
I think he has an avoidant attachment style, but not 100% sure. Can also be a mixture. I tend to lean to anxious attachment.
This is not my first relationship. I must admit that I cheated on my first partner and it almost feels that I am now experiencing how that feels. In my current relationship I have had a few experiences with other men, but it was just for one night and he knew about it. The first experience was actually not at all a pleasant one. I couldn’t notify him upfront about that one, because I got myself into a situation I actually didn’t want to be in.
I know I have issues myself, so I don’t what to give the feeling that I am blaming him for all of this. I know there is a big lesson to learn. I think that a part of me just want to find out what is going on to better deal with the situation. There are so many question marks.
Hi Confused,
I can’t tell you if your husband is limerent. He might be. It’s also possible that he simply enjoys the new structure of his life more than the previous arrangement.
If you want to know about your own susceptibility for limerence, I suggest that you test yourself using the following link.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/are-you-a-limerent/
You seem open for discussion. I want to talk to you about something, but it won’t be pleasant. I’m sorry that this will come across as tough love, but here goes.
The lifestyle that you described sounds awful. I can only imagine how much your husband suffered when he was overwhelmed with chores and loneliness. Yikes. Of course he went looking for relief elsewhere. Joe Beam from Marriage Helper says that people don’t leave their marriage unless they believe that where they are going is better. Your husband’s quality of life was so low that almost anything would have been a relief.
If your husband had been abandoned with all those chores, but he knew that a loving and receptive wife would return home to him after she helped her parents, he would have endured just fine. The lack of intimacy between you two is what killed your marriage. I don’t know why you were uninterested in physical intimacy with your husband, but it is the reason why you lost him. Men can endure a lot when they know that there’s a loving woman at the end of the struggle. They use us to motivate themselves. How could your husband possibly use you as motivation? You were nothing more than a friend or business partner. I could be wrong. I could have misunderstood your posts.
I want you to learn how to enjoy your male/female relationships. Alison Armstrong wrote a book that explains it well. It’s one of my favorite books. It’s very short and informative. Below is a link to purchase “Making Sense of Men…” by Alison Armstrong. Perhaps your local library has a copy that you can checkout for free.
https://www.amazon.com/Making-Sense-Men-Lifetime-Attention/dp/1605309095
I suspect that you don’t like me after what I’ve said. It’s understandable. I remain curious about your invitation to your husband to engage in physical intimacy with other women as long as emotional intimacy isn’t involved. I am baffled.
What woman would want physical intimacy without emotional intimacy? The only kind I can think of are prostitutes. Is that where you sent him to get his needs met?
How did you get to a point where you wanted to outsource physical intimacy? Is he a terrible lover? Does he smell bad?
I am full of questions, but I will leave it there for now. I know my post is unpleasant and I’m sorry about it. I would like to see you change course so that you can enjoy fulfilling relationships with men.
Best wishes!
-Lovisa
I hadn’t finished reading your second post prior to writing what’s above. I wrote it after reading that you are curious about limerence. After I read the rest of your post, I saw that you and your husband are in an open marriage and both of you have been physically intimate with other people. I don’t think you will ever find happiness in that lifestyle. My advice was for someone who made traditional marriage vows. I have no idea how to make an open marriage work because I have never seen it work. Sorry, I couldn’t be helpful.
Hi Confused,
Wow, you are really, really, going through it. I am a Chronic Limerent. I’ve been limerent many, many times. When I’m in a relationship, I’ve been limerent for others. When I’m single, I’ve been limerent. I have a lot of experience with it. My Father was a limerent. I watched him have countless emotional affairs, while my Mother accepted it as just “who he was”. Now that he has passed away, I hear her talk about it with more venom. It never sat well with her. Perhaps she’s re-thinking how permissive she was about it.
Currently, I am blocking out my SO, the way your SO is blocking you out….So, I can understand your husband, in that sense. Though, I would NEVER talk about my LO to my SO. It seems cruel that your partner is bringing LO up with you. That is horrible, and surely, so painful for you.
Yet, I can also understand your heartbreak, because I am a limerent, and we know heartbreak. We feel it very, very intensely. And it’s hard to get ourselves out of it.
You have power, exclusive of your spouse and whatever he is doing. You have power to love yourself, and to seek the best for yourself. It may seem like an abstract concept, right now, but, I encourage you to work to build your sense of your own self, exclusive of him. Maybe see it as a private thing, something you are doing , that nobody else knows about or gets to comment on.
I am so sorry you are going through this. You do not deserve to feel like a third wheel. You may not be able to change the dynamic though.
You are doing the right thing by protecting yourself. And, by trying to build your strength, here, with other people who can understand, sympathize, and help you feel less alone in this!
Hugs,
CSC
LE: The End At Last
Good News Day,
I don’t mean to just barge in without acknowledging that others on here are struggling, so please know my thoughts are with the tormented.
I had an awful dose of limerence that kicked off in June 2023 and I’ve had many flare ups and relapses.
My LO almost derailed my life (LO most definitely has NPD – we have a mutual friend who agrees with me on this – I’m not just “diagnosing” them to suit my narrative) this person is toxic – a wolf in sheep’s clothing, an energy vampire, living off a constant narcissistic supply of unwitting vulnerable clients.
The good news is that I really turned a corner these last few weeks, and this week, I think I merged back onto the highway of my real life and I think LO is just a speck in my rear view mirror.
It began a few weeks ago when I realised that sad songs no longer make me feel sad.
Then, on Wednesday I realised that LO is actually a really annoying person.
….and many of the things that I found attractive about them, for example their accent, is actually nasally and irritating (they have a strange way of pronouncing
vowel sounds)
I am actually reeling
…it’s like “What the F happened to me?”
It really was an altered state of mind I was in.
It’s so dangerous to think that I am vulnerable to “falling in love” with people I actually DON’T EVEN LIKE.
Thank goodness I have two really key people that I could trust to talk to about this and every time I had a wobble they talked me down.
I hate to think that a Narcissist could work their evil and blow up my life because they came into my life at a time when I was lost and vulnerable.
I’m so appreciative of the work of Dr L and for all of the openness and sharing on here from fellow victims / affected folk.
It’s taken a whole lot of therapy, psychiatric care, journaling, tears and talking to get here, but, it’s all been worth it because I now love myself.
That for me was the key to freedom. Dr L is so right, we have to live a purposeful life, and for me, that can only happen when we love and accept ourselves.
When we are no longer attached to the validation of others, when we let go of fear and anger and really love the wonderful, unique human that we were given to take care of on this planet, then we are free.
My LO is still recovering from their accident, I think, and all I want for them is peace. I now have peace and it was hard earned, but the LE transformed me.
It broke me, but I built back better. It’s not too long ago that I didn’t think it was possible to live with the heartache of longing for them.
…but, I broke the habit and the cravings are gone.
Limerence most certainly is an addiction and an altered state of mind. The good news is that it’s possible to make a full recovery from it, learn from it and be a better version of yourself for it.
Key for me was letting go of shame and loving and accepting the flawed human that I am. I have a big heart and that’s ok, I won’t let the LE turn my heart cold, but, I will be VERY selective with who I share my heart with, because I’ve only the one and people need to earn my trust before I grant them access.
I most definitely could never trust my LO, they had proven themselves untrustworthy and yet I chose not to see that during the whole episode.
Thankfully I’m out the otherside now and hopefully I have full immunity from ever getting a dose like that again.
That’s wonderful news She Who Should Know Better!
My Gosh! your story is so similar to mine. My LO had NPD as well, it took me a while to realize it but you know when you know right?
That’s what Narcissist’s do, that’s their MO
They seem to sniff out people that are lost and vulnerable and turn on their charm only to wreak havoc in your life.
It’s exactly what happened to me.
You are ahead of me, I’ve been one year no contact and I’m just seeing the light now.
I will go ahead and say that it seems that the both of us got quite the wake up call!
With the aid of a good therapist I really started working on myself to make sure that someone like that will not be welcome in my life EVER AGAIN.
It’s funny when you mentioned his accent, my LO had an accent too (from a certain part of the United States) I thought it was cute at first but after a while I found it quite obnoxious. lol
There is know doubt in my mind that I will get to where you are now.
Thank you for posting this, it gave me hope that I will eventually be free of this and learn to love myself more.
Please stop in sometime and let us know how things are going!
Anna, I wish you all the best on your journey! It seems that you are right on track and that for sure you will get to love yourself fully.
LE: The End At Last
Good News Day,
I don’t mean to just barge in without acknowledging that others on here are struggling, so please know my thoughts are with the tormented.
I had an awful dose of limerence that kicked off in June 2023 and I’ve had many flare ups and relapses.
My LO almost derailed my life (LO most definitely has NPD – we have a mutual friend who agrees with me on this – I’m not just “diagnosing” them to suit my narrative) this person is toxic – a wolf in sheep’s clothing, an energy vampire, living off a constant narcissistic supply of unwitting vulnerable clients.
The good news is that I really turned a corner these last few weeks, and this week, I think I merged back onto the highway of my real life and I think LO is just a speck in my rear view mirror.
It began a few weeks ago when I realised that sad songs no longer make me feel sad.
Then, on Wednesday I realised that LO is actually a really annoying person.
….and many of the things that I found attractive about them, for example their accent, is actually nasally and irritating (they have a strange way of pronouncing
vowel sounds)
I am actually reeling
…it’s like “What the F happened to me?”
It really was an altered state of mind I was in.
It’s so dangerous to think that I am vulnerable to “falling in love” with people I actually DON’T EVEN LIKE.
Thank goodness I have two really key people that I could trust to talk to about this and every time I had a wobble they talked me down.
I hate to think that a Narcissist could work their evil and blow up my life because they came into my life at a time when I was lost and vulnerable.
I’m so appreciative of the work of Dr L and for all of the openness and sharing on here from fellow victims / affected folk.
It’s taken a whole lot of therapy, psychiatric care, journaling, tears and talking to get here, but, it’s all been worth it because I now love myself.
That for me was the key to freedom. Dr L is so right, we have to live a purposeful life, and for me, that can only happen when we love and accept ourselves.
When we are no longer attached to the validation of others, when we let go of fear and anger and really love the wonderful, unique human that we were given to take care of on this planet, then we are free.
My LO is still recovering from their accident, I think, and all I want for them is peace. I now have peace and it was hard earned, but the LE transformed me.
It broke me, but I built back better. It’s not too long ago that I didn’t think it was possible to live with the heartache of longing for them.
…but, I broke the habit and the cravings are gone.
Limerence most certainly is an addiction and an altered state of mind. The good news is that it’s possible to make a full recovery from it, learn from it and be a better version of yourself for it.
Key for me was letting go of shame and loving and accepting the flawed human that I am. I have a big heart and that’s ok, I won’t let the LE turn my heart cold, but, I will be VERY selective with who I share my heart with, because I’ve only the one and people need to earn my trust before I grant them access.
I most definitely could never trust my LO, they had proven themselves untrustworthy and yet I chose not to see that during the whole episode.
Thankfully I’m out the otherside now and hopefully I have full immunity from ever getting a dose like that again.
Hi Anna,
Thank you for your kind words and congratulations on your one year NC.
After reading further on NPD I went on to block my LO from all my Social Media Accounts (even though they are private) and I unsubscribed from their business email (I received an an email from their business during the summer and it really set me back).
I really do believe that when our self esteem is low we are at risk of seeking external validation.
That’s why I think learning to really love our true selves and finding joy in life are both key to moving on from limerence.
Even if LO had true feelings for me and we developed a relationship, it would not guarantee my happiness.
People change, LO could develop an illness, physical or mental. Then what?
I see now that my happiness lies within me. Once I attach my happiness to an external thing or person, then my source of happiness is never in my control and can be taken away.
I believe that true happiness lies inside of us, and in the wider scheme of life. When I am out in nature or creating something new or challenging my body with movement, that is when I feel most alive and that is, for the most part, always in my control.
We’ve been brainwashed by Hollywood and the advertising industry to buy into the romantic narrative of “they met, they married and they all lived happily ever after”.
Relationships take a lot of work. I read recently that we are all very prepared to put lots of work into our careers to get where we want, we know parenting takes a lot of work too, and yet we run when the going gets tough in our relationships, because, somewhere along the way we were led to believe that if a relationship is “right” it should be easy and frictionless.
My relationship with my husband is better than ever now and that’s because we both put the work in.
However, a lot of the credit goes to allowing myself time to get to know myself.
We really only ever have ourselves in this life and that relationship needs to be healthy. I have called myself out on a lot of Bullshit over these last few months and I’m taking full responsibility for my own life and happiness.
I have worked on all of the relationships that are important to me. It started with me, my husband, my children, then my relationship with my best friend, my sibling and my parents and a small group of other friends and colleagues.
I am 100% myself in all situations now, whereas before I did suffer a bit with imposter syndrome and social anxiety.
I credit a lot of my personal work to studying Yoga, both the physical practice and reading ancient Indian Philosophy and I do a lot of fun stuff that I’d forgotten I was passionate about (Rollerskating is one of my forgotten passions which I now get a lot of joy from).
I really wish you continued success on your path back to yourself. It is so nice to connect with others who have had a similar experience as it gives us comfort to realise that what we’ve experienced is just a part of being a big hearted human with a need for connection.
I really do believe that reconnecting with ourselves and this wonderful world we live in sets us free from limerence, and I wish that for you.
Yes, to keeping updated. I would love to hear about your continued success on your path to freedom.
Keep going Anna, life gets so much better when you meet yourself at the end of the crazy roller coaster ride of limerence.
Apologies Anna,
I reattached my first post!!
…but, my reply to you is in there, lol!!
Really happy to hear that you are doing so well!!! This is a great message for people that still struggle with LE. Gives hope!
Hi Confused.,
Thank you, I wish you peace and happiness as you move on from your LE.
Hi Confused.,
Thank you, I wish you peace and happiness as you move on from your LE.