Last week, Limerent Emeritus drew my attention to a thought-provoking article in the Washington Post about a how some self-help books “express great confidence in theories of the brain that are still in their unproven infancy”.
It’s a worthwhile read, and I agree with the general premise. There is a similar phenomenon in the exercise and health space, where gurus find a single study listed on PubMed and use it to extrapolate a Universal Truth about how to build muscle or lose fat.
Given that I blog about a lightly researched psychological phenomenon from a neuroscience perspective, I feel some need to explain myself. How confident can I really be about applying neuroscience to a contentious and understudied human experience, given that there isn’t much direct research in the area?
To answer that, we need to understand a bit about the nature of the Scientific Method (an Ideal), the scientific community (a bunch of people nominally practicing science), and the scientific literature (a body of literally tens of millions of papers published by the scientific community).
1. The Scientific Method
A lot could be written about the development of the scientific method, and its strengths and limitations, but for the sake of space, we can boil it down to the essence.
The Scientific Method is an approach to discovery of knowledge that seeks to neutralise sources of bias, and the cognitive limitations of humans, by rigorously testing ideas through experimentation.
The common formulation is this: a scientist has an idea about how some aspect of reality works, and formalises this idea into a “hypothesis” that can be tested. Then, the scientist devises experiments that would test the hypothesis by disproving it. If the experiments fail to disprove the hypothesis, then the scientist refines it, designs additional experiments, and continues to try and prove it wrong. If a hypothesis lasts this endless assault of stress-testing, then it will eventually become accepted as provisionally correct. At this point, it might be promoted to a Theory.
To give an example – let’s say you had the idea that limerence is caused by attachment disorders in childhood. To test this scientifically, you would assert the hypothesis “people who experience limerence are more likely to have had childhood attachment problems than people without limerence”. You would then devise an experiment. You could, for example, ask a large number of limerents to take a survey on childhood attachment experiences, then repeat this with a similarly large number of non-limerents, and compare the two populations. If the hypothesis is incorrect, there would be no statistically significant difference between limerents and non-limerents.
To do this well, you would also need to think carefully about controlling for other confounding variables, and refine the experimental design to try an anticipate ways your results might not be sound, but that’s the general principle.
As an approach to discovering truth, the scientific method is wildly successful. It takes emotion, prejudice, politics, and cognitive biases out of the process of knowledge generation. The most amazing discoveries in the history of science have usually been unexpected – someone was trying to test their favourite hypothesis and proved themselves wrong.
2. The scientific community
In reality, scientists don’t work in isolation. There are teams all over the world, all trying to advance knowledge, all trying to test ideas and make a breakthrough discovery. If one group proposes a new hypothesis, all the other groups working in the same field are highly motivated to prove them wrong. That adds a lot of competition and ego to the mix, but as long as the principles of research integrity are abided by, then it accelerates progress.
The aggregation of scientific knowledge mostly advances in small steps. Specific studies are carried out to test hypotheses, and the results are published in papers that summarise a set of linked experiments. The main value of a paper is in the experimental results, but there is also a discussion section where the authors are granted some licence to speculate about the wider implications of their discovery. This is where people advance their pet theories about the field.
When a field is healthy, there is a lot of activity at the leading edge, and groups are rapidly publishing new discoveries in new papers and trying to build a body of evidence to explain how their little corner of the world works. There is cut-and-thrust, point-and-counterpoint, but in a spirit of constructive competition and a common purpose to get closer to the truth.
Knowledge at this leading edge is all uncertain. Dr Smith’s lab publishes a paper showing that gene X is highly active in disease Y and that silencing the gene slows disease progression. Dr Jones’s lab then publishes a follow up paper that shows the silencing experiment was flawed, and what’s more, overactivation of gene X does not make the disease worse.
It takes time for all this cut-and-thrust to settle into a consensus. A lot of work is needed, testing the ideas from multiple angles and in multiple labs, to reach the point where a hypothesis is provisionally accepted.
This is where the Washington Post article comes in. It rightly points out that some gurus cherry-pick a single paper from the chaos of this leading edge of discovery and present it as settled science.
3. The scientific literature
Scientific papers are published in specialist academic journals. There are thousands of them, even just in the biomedical sciences, and more are founded each year.
To be recognised as credible, a journal has to be listed in PubMed, a database of all the scientific papers in biomedical sciences. These journals must include “peer review” as a part of the process, where a new paper is sent out to independent experts in the field for critique before publication. Typically the reviewers are asked to confirm the methodological soundness of the paper, but also whether it is of sufficient interest to warrant publication.
Scientists operate under the belief that peer review is a venerable institution, intended to prevent junk science being published. In actual fact, it was only widely adopted in the 1970s, and while the benefits of maintaining rigour could be true, there are just as many shortcomings. Nevertheless, peer review is now accepted as a minimal requirement for a journal to be taken seriously.
Behind the chaos of the cutting edge experimental papers, there is a second tier of publications known as reviews. These papers summarise an active field of research and try to make sense of the fragmentary evidence base and unify it into a coherent narrative. Review articles are very valuable for non-specialists to understand the state of the art in an unfamiliar field.
Finally, a third tier of scientific publication is the textbook. Generally speaking, textbooks present ideas that have emerged from the primary experimental literature, passed through the secondary review literature, and become widely accepted as sound enough to be taught to University students as the basic facts of the field. If an idea is in the textbooks it might still be wrong, but there is a large body of evidence to support it.
4. How things go wrong
So far, I’ve presented the public-facing version of the scientific process.
Unfortunately, there are many points of failure.
First, and most importantly, scientists are human. Although the scientific method is extremely powerful, it has to be followed properly for it to work. When people’s salaries, research money, reputation, and status depend on publishing exciting new discoveries, it is easy to see how corruption can creep in.
The mundane end of this spectrum is designing experiments to try and prove your favourite hypothesis right (rather than wrong), dropping data that weaken the strength of your claim, “massaging” your statistical tests to get a positive outcome, or ignoring your competitors’ contradictory papers. The extreme end of the spectrum is directly falsifying or fabricating data – a practice that is increasingly common.
Money also corrupts the enterprise. An obvious example is the pharmaceutical industry funding trials of their own potential products, but the publication industry is itself a massive money spinner. Those thousands of journals are published by companies that generate tens of billions of dollars, often with astonishing profit margins.
Another serious problem is gatekeeping. Given the huge number of journals, no individual could conceivably keep up with the full literature. No recruitment committee for a University could feasibly read and understand all the publications of their roster of job candidates. Inevitably, proxy measures of publication quality are used.
There is a hierarchy in the status of scientific journals. Some, like Nature and Science, are positioned at the top, where only the most important, impactful, and wide-ranging discoveries are published. Getting a paper into Nature can make a scientific career. At the bottom there are “predatory” journals that charge a publication fee and therefore are highly motivated to accept almost any paper they receive.
Couple this status hierarchy with peer review, and you get a de facto system of “peer veto”, where reviewers act as gatekeepers to the career spoils that come with the most coveted publication slots.
Like any other human endeavour, systems that should be neutral end up becoming distorted by ego, vanity, money and resentment.
But, we just keep soldiering on, hoping that the rot from the edges does not seep too deeply into the core.
5. Back to limerence
OK, so after that long dissection of the business of science, what does this all mean for relating scientific discoveries to everyday life?
The first thing is to agree with the concerns of the Washington Post article that there is obvious danger (and opportunism) in extrapolating from studies at the cutting edge of experimental research to human behaviour.
Kirsten Martin’s article particularly focuses on fMRI studies, and these are, indeed, especially prone to misleading media splashes. There is a bit of a joke in the wider neuroscience community that fMRI is the “new phrenology”, as interpretation of blobby regions of increased blood flow get overinterpreted into proof that a given brain region controls a specific behaviour.
A weakness of the WaPo article is that any attempt to explain any aspect of human behaviour is necessarily going to be speculative. If you are writing about a specific human experience – limerence, procrastination, infidelity, grief, or anxiety – there is almost zero chance that there will be a settled, textbook-tier body of evidence obtained from human studies to draw from.
Good popular science attempts to present an argument in the following way: start with a foundation of textbook-tier knowledge. Add detail by summarising the state of the art from (multiple) review articles. Add spice by including some particularly interesting or provocative studies at the cutting edge.
That’s what I try to do with limerence. I concede that I rarely provide any citations – because this is still more of a blog than an academic site – but I hope that my process is clear. Reward, arousal, and bonding are textbook-tier phenomena that are pretty uncontroversial. The latest addiction research on wanting versus liking comes from the secondary literature and is still an active area of debate and refinement. Specific claims about serotonin wander into the primary experimental literature, and so are more fluid and contentious.
Like so many things in life, balance is the key. Don’t accept any claim simply because there is a published paper that supports it, but don’t discard all science-based self-help because it’s building arguments from a complex literature that won’t be settled for decades (if ever).
tl;dr: be cautious and use your judgement.
I read it all, Dr L 🤓
I went from being a quantitative person to having a full appreciation for the qualitative in recent years. I really liked this article (Shadish cook and Campbell and can be found freely available on Google scholar)
https://iaes.cgiar.org/sites/default/files/pdf/147.pdf
talking about generalized causal inference. I found the part about some researchers who were accused of falsifying their data because nobody else could replicate their results very interesting. Turned out that when the other teams visited the original team there was some vital qualitative information that hadn’t been included in the quantitative studies. Context matters. While it wouldn’t necessarily improve the quality of publications, it may lead to more successful replications of findings that may otherwise be prematurely dismissed. Making inferences when anything has to do with social sciences or any variables that relate to human behavior (whether that’s the researchers’ or participants’) is insanely complex 😓 I feel exhausted just thinking about it all! Bring limerence into it and my head hurts even more. It would be interesting to survey everyone here for comorbidities etc except that it seems to me a certain demographic tends to post here and is unlikely to be representative of the Limerent population overall 🤔
TL;DR indeed 😅
I have high functioning autism. I have always thought that that was a factor driving my obsessions of certain individuals long before I heard of limerence. I thought for a long time that MAYBE, a long shot maybe, that there was a common thread among all of those I became limerent for, that maybe they were also mildly autistic too, which made these women seem like they were rare members of “my own species”, so to speak. Even I thought this was ridiculous until I got a chance once to talk to one of these unicorns. This LO told me that her father had Asperger Syndrome and her only son was suspected of being autistic by school staff, and she told me this before I had ever even brought up the subject. So, I really wonder about all the rest of them too.
I forgot to mention that my last LO was suspected of having “ADHD” by her coworkers and had an autistic son.
I agree with your theory. I also have autism and I suspect my LOs are all somewhere on the spectrum. I am generation X and my LOs always have been too, so people of my age often have no diagnosis, but they are all introverted and most intense ones have passionate interests in a particular subject.
Also, limerence itself is a bit like an autistic obsession. It feels very much like the same brain pathways. I’ve had several LEs and several autistic interests. Most of my autistic interests wax and wane, but once the LEs have passed I’ve not found I go back to the same LOs.
I agree too with the idea that the unfortunate ability to experience limerence may be caused by lack of secure attachment to a parent as a child. I don’t know what my mother expected would happen when she didn’t use a condom that night with my father, but I wasn’t it.
Maybe it’s time for another raise…:)
Sure! let’s 10x your pay again! 😉
Hi everyone. I had (and still have) an episode of what I know is called limerence. I broke up with my ex-girlfriend about a month ago. It’s been painful since then, but I consider it an opportunity to grow.
What I found interesting is that I was recently diagnosed with borderline personality disorder (by 3 different psychiatrists)r, also know as The term object limerence is very close to that of “favorite person” in BPD. Also, many traits overlap between limerence and BPD symptoms—for example, purposeful life. People with BPD suffer from “identity diffusion,” which makes us vulnerable to engaging in obsessive relationships, especially romantic ones. That identity diffusion is essential to understanding the relationship with our favorite person. As we don’t have a unified personality, all our projections (idealization) materialize in our FP. Then, what we feel is a projection of our desires and memories (mainly our most sacred memories from infancy with our mother). It is like we had all that made is happy in one person. Of course, that’s not real. It’s part of a primitive mechanism of defense.
There are more traits and useful information about BPD and limerence. I’m not saying that every limerent has BPD, but it might be useful to consult a specialist to discard it.
See you and thanks!
It seems BPD makes limerent experiences even stronger: https://www.grouporttherapy.com/blog/limerence-borderline-personality-disorder?ref=themilsource.com#:~:text=Borderline%20Personality%20Disorder%20(BPD)%20is,with%20another%20person%2C%20often%20unrequited.
Hello all,
It has been some time since I’ve posted on this site. It has been over 4 years since the last time I saw my last LO, but I’m still limerent; she was in a dream I had just last night. However, I am here today to posit a theory of what lies at the root of limerence, at least for my own limerence.
My theory goes like this:
It has been well established on this site, and elsewhere, that the root of limerence can be shown to be the result of some sort of emotional trauma very early in life (such as neglect or abandonment, for example) in the “infant amnesia” stage; however, there are never any specific anecdotes given.
A lot of us had a babysitter, or two, in our babyhood. (I have a photo album with pictures of me as a toddler being held by various individuals that I have no recollection of.) A typical babysitter is a young woman, or an older child, offering to babysit in exchange for cash payment for a finite period of time. If this babysitter turns out to be much more responsive to you than your parents ever were, it is almost inevitable that you will develop a strong attachment to this person, and you will crave and anticipate their return every time. It is also an obvious fact that any given hired babysitter is usually only there for monetary compensation – and there are obviously not going to be any goodbyes when she moves on, none that you will understand at least.
So, from the baby’s point of view, this person that filled such a desperate psychological need inexplicably never returns, and you might believe even at that early age that you were not good enough or loveable enough to keep her coming back, because you are way too young to understand that the attention you got from this person was only obligatory.
So, for the rest of your entire life you endeavor to “find” this person, or someone that reminds you of this person that filled such a crucial role in your happiness in the past, and reconnect with them. Might this help explain why being rejected by an LO is so disruptive and devastating for at least some of us? Might this also help explain why an LO will run for the hills when they become aware of how dysfunctionally needy you are for their approval?
“So, for the rest of your entire life you endeavor to “find” this person, or someone that reminds you of this person that filled such a crucial role in your happiness in the past, and reconnect with them. Might this help explain why being rejected by an LO is so disruptive and devastating for at least some of us? Might this also help explain why an LO will run for the hills when they become aware of how dysfunctionally needy you are for their approval?”
@James.
Thank you for your commentary. What you say is very interesting…
I think what happens in limerence is that the limerent has all sorts of needs, desires, longings, etc, the same as every other human being. Limerents should not feel guilty about having needs, desires, longings. However, in limerence, all these needs and desires and longings become focused on one person alone: the LO.
The limerent may not be aware that this obsessive focus on one person is taking place, because the limerent is so caught up in the exciting fantasy e.g. does he/she like me or not like me? How can I make myself more appealing to LO? Am I getting closer to getting my needs met or not? How can I get more euphoria?”
Focusing all of one’s needs on a single person isn’t healthy – not least because that one person (LO) probably isn’t equipped to meet all one’s needs, even if they outright volunteer for the task!! 😛
In essence, the limerent believes that the LO is the solution to all their problems. Or, alternatively, the limerent believes that the LO is his/her soulmate. The feeling of connection is overpowering. It must be true love, etc, etc. The truth is that limerents probably do share an uncanny mental connection with their LOs. These two humans probably do share some traits in common. However, this uncanny mental connection doesn’t mean the two parties are destined to be together.
If a limerent and an LO form a relationship based on the belief they are soulmates, then these two individuals are indulging in what might be called a “shared fantasy”. In the modern democratic West, we can’t stop consenting adults from indulging in relationships based on shared fantasy. However, the problem with shared fantasy is that eventually the gloss wears off the fantasy. Also, fantasy-based relationships tend to be codependent in nature, and are most often desired/practised and/or pursued by people with personality disorders or unaddressed attachment wounds left over from childhood, as you suggest.
I think there is room in the debate for limerence to be a purely natural (and healthy) phenomenon that leads to pair-bonding – and most importantly of all, reproduction. The problem is … what is to become of the pair-bond after successful reproduction? It’s not much fun to live in a society in which basically every couple breaks up the second they finish reproducing – there is very little stability in such a world, and true community cannot grow and thrive, because people aren’t putting down roots and accepting embedded roles in family units.
In regard to your last point, about neediness/LOs running for the hills, I believe it all boils down to the concept of emotional intensity. Basically, “being too intense” may be the main problem, or even the only problem, for some limerents.
I’m a man attracted to other men, so I’ve spent my whole life analysing what I’m doing wrong in interactions with other men, since same-sex attraction isn’t the norm in any society and never will be. Pair-bonding is about reproduction, so the overwhelming majority of real and potential pair-bonds will always be heterosexual in nature. If I don’t want to spend my life bawling my pretty little eyes out over some random man who doesn’t want me, I have to face reality. 😆
However, my outsider status gives me a novel vantage point from which to observe human nature. Why are other men uncomfortable around me? I used to think the problem was sex/gender identity/sexual orientation. Now I realise the problem is intensity alone. In other words, my sex doesn’t offend other men. My gender identity doesn’t offend other men. And my sexual orientation also (surprisingly) almost never offends other men, even when they know about it. What offends, or rather, what unsettles other men, is when I … act a little too emotionally intense around them. Emotional intensity spooks other males. 😉
The solution to the intensity problem isn’t to act relaxed around men and start acting intense around women, however. Because if I acted intense around a woman, and that woman wasn’t interested, she’d likely feel upset/uncomfortable too. So the short answer to being well-liked: don’t act intense around anyone. Men don’t want intensity and women also don’t want intensity. (The only exception to the rule is if the feelings of intensity are reciprocated). 🤔😉
I wasn’t aware of being “dysfunctionally needy” for my LO’s approval, but I suppose I must have been in hindsight. Also, I have no memory whatsoever of staring at him, or even of looking at him to an excessive degree. But I must have done that too. Not that he/anyone else ever said anything about it… 🙄
“shared fantasy” = mutual limerence
“The problem with shared fantasy is that eventually the gloss wears off the fantasy.” Yes, this is explained in DR L’s article The Three Phases of Limerence.
Yes, “Being too intense” = what I used to call “getting to eager”. And yes, I know that killed more than a few opportunities.
I appreaciate you sharing your “outsider” status, which I don’t think is considdered that outsider anymore. My two other cowokers on graves in my department are trans and they are really cool to work with. In fact, I told our newbe, who presents with makeup and a wig, about what happened to me 4 years ago with my last LO and he/she/they (I still get the pronouns wrong sometimes) understood exactly what I was talking about. My other coworker has gotten all of her surgeries done, but she does not believe in acting “prissy”. I can’t count how many times she has told me “Dont fu*cking wory about it! when I have had a silly wory. The three of us often have deep philosophical discussions.
“shared fantasy” = mutual limerence
“The problem with shared fantasy is that eventually the gloss wears off the fantasy.” Yes, this is explained in DR L’s article The Three Phases of Limerence.
Yes, “Being too intense” = what I used to call “getting to eager”. And yes, I know that killed more than a few opportunities.
@James.
Yes, yes, and yes. We seem to be on a somewhat similar wavelength in our thinking regarding limerence. I will have to re-read Dr. L’s “Three Phases of Limerence” article. 😜
Sammy,
” So the short answer to being well-liked: don’t act intense around anyone.”
I want intensity. In my romantic relationships, in my friendships. (There’s no hope with my family. 🙂 I don’t necessarily want it the minute I meet someone. I need to get to know them a bit. But I frankly start to loose interest in the non-intense, in the casual friends. I have visions of the BFF and the deep talks and the really getting to know each other.
But I do agree that most people don’t want intense.
@Marcia, exactly, being „well-liked“ is nice enough, but it‘s intensity that makes life interesting…
My problem is, I want intensity on my terms and whenever I feel intense, but if the other person gets too intense when I don’t feel like it, I don’t like it either 🙄
Coming back to being selfish
“I want intensity. In my romantic relationships, in my friendships. (There’s no hope with my family. 🙂 I don’t necessarily want it the minute I meet someone. I need to get to know them a bit. But I frankly start to loose interest in the non-intense, in the casual friends. I have visions of the BFF and the deep talks and the really getting to know each other.”
@Marcia.
Oh, I hear you, Marcia. I like intense too. But there’s different kinds of intense…
For example, some people might like the ‘intense” of deep discussions and vigorous debates. But they don’t want the “intense” of lingering eye contact and silent prayers and burning fingertips. Oops … getting a little off-track here! 😆
I suppose I’m extremely biased on the topic of “intensity”, so please feel free to disagree with me or take my advice with a pinch of salt. The reason I’m so biased against intensity is I once was very intense around a platonic male friend (not LO) and he shamed me/judged me very harshly for my behaviour.
I never quite recovered from this man’s disapproval!! It was like being personally scolded by the Tsar of Russia in front of the entire Imperial Court. I’m easily embarrassed, you see. I shame readily. The resultant feelings of mortification were simply exquisite… For the longest time afterward, I toyed with the idea of wearing a brown paper bag over my head for the remainder of my natural life… 😲
This particular platonic male friend also didn’t like deep discussions or vigorous debates. The fact I wanted to talk about “controversial subjects” (his phrase, not mine) proved pretty much the last nail in the coffin of our friendship. However, in hindsight, I think of him as a lovely human being and I wish I was more like him, because I think he understood social convention far, far better than me. He understood … etiquette. He knew how to get along with people. He implicitly understood the rules of the social game. (There are things you can say, darling, and there are things that you just … can’t). 😉
You may be onto something regarding intensity, though. Camille Paglia says that women actually like male expressions of lust (sexual desire for women). And we can see this appreciation of intensity in women’s support of male rock bands, for example. So, perhaps there’s a time and a place for expression of intense feeling. But something tells me the workplace isn’t the right time and place! 😉
“But I do agree that most people don’t want intense.”
If someone indicates to me that they don’t want intense, then these days I do my best to respect that person’s wishes, and just be the kind of dull (or super easy-going?) friend they like being around. 😁
Hi Sammy,
“For example, some people might like the ‘intense” of deep discussions and vigorous debates. But they don’t want the “intense” of lingering eye contact and silent prayers and burning fingertips. Oops … getting a little off-track here! 😆”
Lol. I like all of that minus the vigorous debates. When I think of deep discussions … it’s about who the person really is. What do they want? What do they long for? What wakes them up inside? But “intense” is also the connection. Have you ever met a couple who you can tell are really bonded? Where you almost feel like to be around them is invading their space and you’re a complete third wheel?
“The reason I’m so biased against intensity is I once was very intense around a platonic male friend (not LO) and he shamed me/judged me very harshly for my behaviour.”
I’m sorry to hear that. What did he do?
“This particular platonic male friend also didn’t like deep discussions or vigorous debates. The fact I wanted to talk about “controversial subjects” (his phrase, not mine) proved pretty much the last nail in the coffin of our friendship.”
Were you trying to get closer to him and he wanted to keep things more on the surface?
“(There are things you can say, darling, and there are things that you just … can’t). 😉”
I agree, but then there are little moments that let you know the door may be opening for more. Like someone shows a flash of vulnerability or authenticity of who they really are.
“You may be onto something regarding intensity, though. Camille Paglia”
I LOVE Camille Paglia. She was one of the first people to write about Madonna academically. She wrote that Madonna faces the dilemma of the modern woman looking to find a mate … does she look for a tyrant or a slave? 🙂 I love that.
“…says that women actually like male expressions of lust (sexual desire for women). And we can see this appreciation of intensity in women’s support of male rock bands, for example.”
Very true. And the lyrics … baby, I want you … baby, I never wanted anyone more … baby, I don’t want anyone else. .. make the female listener feel like the lead singer is aiming it all right at her and only her. Especially if he’s singing in a falsetto! 🙂 He’s not the timid or hesitant suitor. He knows what he wants and he’s coming to get it! Fasten your seat belts! Of course, it’s a fantasy. The reality is he’s aiming that lust at a LOT of women. 🙂
“If someone indicates to me that they don’t want intense, then these days I do my best to respect that person’s wishes, and just be the kind of dull (or super easy-going?) friend they like being around.”
Yeah, but it sometimes feels like they are setting the terms of the friendship. Like … I can stay on your level most of the time, but can we go to mine SOMETIMES?
@Marcia.
“Lol. I like all of that minus the vigorous debates. When I think of deep discussions … it’s about who the person really is. What do they want? What do they long for? What wakes them up inside? But “intense” is also the connection.”
Actually, to be quite honest, I don’t think I really like vigorous debates as a rule, although I’m oddly capable in that department when I need to be. I’m quite passive and easy-going most of the time. I think the seemingly argumentative side of me is a side of me that’s not really me at all, but something attributable to limerence…
“Have you ever met a couple who you can tell are really bonded? Where you almost feel like to be around them is invading their space and you’re a complete third wheel?”
I try not to hang out with couples who share an intense connection because, as you suggest, I don’t want to be the third wheel! 😛
“I’m sorry to hear that. What did he do?”
The friend who judged me for intensity didn’t really do anything. He just looked and acted very uncomfortable, and it was clear he was uncomfortable. And I felt as if he was judging me harshly when in fact he probably wasn’t judging me. He probably just felt uncomfortable, and discomfort can sometimes come off as judgement. He just wasn’t enjoying hanging out with me.
“Were you trying to get closer to him and he wanted to keep things more on the surface?”
I don’t think I was trying to get closer to him necessarily. I think I was deep in the altered state of limerence (for someone else) and I wanted to defend my infatuation, talk about my infatuation, glory in my infatuation, despite the fact no one – least of all my conversational partner – was challenging the validity of my infatuation. I was a bit of a lost cause at that point. 🤣
I sometimes recognise in posters on LwL the same defensiveness about infatuation. So I definitely know where people are coming from. I find such defensiveness amusing rather than offensive. It’s very much a case of: “Yup. Been there myself.” 😉
“I LOVE Camille Paglia. She was one of the first people to write about Madonna academically. She wrote that Madonna faces the dilemma of the modern woman looking to find a mate … does she look for a tyrant or a slave? 🙂 I love that.”
Yes, Camille is rather wonderful, isn’t she? She is the person who explained heterosexuality to me … sort of. 🤣
Camille explained being gay to me, or why a small number of people are more likely to end up that way, and her explanations didn’t offend me, because it’s obvious that Camille is fond of gay men.
Lastly, Camille explained women to me … sort of. Actually, the more I learn about women, the less I know about women. So maybe I should just stop learning about women? 😆 I think it’s a woman’s birthright to be mysterious anyway. Hadn’t heard that particular point of Paglia’s you mention about Madonna and the dilemma of the modern woman searching for a mate, but, yes, fascinating stuff!
“Very true. And the lyrics … baby, I want you … baby, I never wanted anyone more … baby, I don’t want anyone else. .. make the female listener feel like the lead singer is aiming it all right at her and only her. Especially if he’s singing in a falsetto! 🙂 He’s not the timid or hesitant suitor. He knows what he wants and he’s coming to get it! Fasten your seat belts! Of course, it’s a fantasy. The reality is he’s aiming that lust at a LOT of women. 🙂”
You describe the exchange of energy between male rock artist/s and female audience members really well. Definitely something Dionysian going on, some primal invitation to primal revelry. 😉
“Yeah, but it sometimes feels like they are setting the terms of the friendship. Like … I can stay on your level most of the time, but can we go to mine SOMETIMES?”
Yes, I know what you mean. 🙂
I feel your sadness, Sammy. We all want to be able to be our authentic selves, especially around people we like, but it’s hard when we have to keep editing our behaviour. I often wish I was a different personality, that I was one of these people that makes everyone around them feel better, who is bright and optimistic and people want to be with. But I’m not so I have to pretend a lot of the time. And that’s very tiring.
It’s also hard when someone has been intense with you and then suddenly isn’t. Suddenly absolutely nothing. That’s hard and confusing. And you don’t just miss the glimmer and the thrill, you miss the whole person – or at least as much of them as you know because you’ve been trying not to get to know them well so as not to fall even further.
To truly love and respect ourselves, cultivate more security and confidence, we have to be AUTHENTIC to ourselves first.
Pretense of anything not only make us tired and fake, but also could backfire — people of all kinds usually better appreciate and prefer to deal with authenticity with its intrinsic bright and dark facets — every coin has two sides, so each of us human being.
Being bright and optimistic for yourself on your own, then you will light up those on your path. Maybe your LO will come back making himself better known and even available to you (he’s a married actor in a new play, flirting with a younger actress, right?); or a future LO will appear on your horizon soon…
Thanks Snowphoenix, and yes, well remembered!
I get what you say about authenticity but I try not to inflict myself on other people too much when I’m struggling – I’ve learned that even good friends would rather not be around someone who has a little rain cloud over their head all the time!
As far as LO coming back – I don’t want that. Well, part of me does of course but the rest of me knows that would be really bad for me and negate all the struggles I’ve had for the last month. My SO and I are working hard to revitalise our relationship – this has given it the kick it needed – and it’s going well. It will take a while for the sadness and feelings for LO to go and the massive change from seeing him every day to absolutely no contact has been really hard, but I’m telling myself he’s moved on so I need to as well.
I don’t want a new LO. I’ve had this LE cycle for over 30 years and I’m sick of it. If life has to be a bit less sparkly so be it.
@Cfc,
You’re right that when we have “a little rain cloud over [our] head all the time”, we should not run to our good friends, that’s genuine kindness.
I’m happy to hear about your firm resolutions about the past or future LOs, keep going!
Loving a LO is not my issue, but I need to eradicate my LE root soon.
@C for cat.
“I feel your sadness, Sammy. We all want to be able to be our authentic selves, especially around people we like, but it’s hard when we have to keep editing our behaviour.”
Thank you for your kind words and sentiments. Much appreciated.
I feel as constantly evolving human beings we have to learn to strike a balance – between our own desires/yearnings/emotions and what’s going to help other people feel comfortable. 🤔
@Sammy,
I think this is where my LE went off the rails. I know my LO totally caught my vibe and knew I was into her. Probably my silence + anxieties never helped my situation but only made the intensity toward her that much more great. This explains her “running to the hills” by some obvious rejections.
To this day, I still cannot explain the intense eye contact between us, other than her curiosity or perhaps it was just fear. My lack of action and not owning up to my behaviors makes me bitter. A part of me would like to apologize to her for that. But then I think all I’m doing is looking for false hope. Because in some far off way, I still believe there is a place for “us”. Yet I know thats my silly limerent mind at work as usual. Goes along with that mindset, where I believe LO is the answer to all my problems.
@MJ
From a man’s perspective, when you intensely look into your LO’s eyes, what do you see? Or what do you search in them?
That’s what happened btw LO and me at the earlier stage of my LE. I noticed once his eyes went deeply into my eyes, lost in it, and pulled them back when I shifted my face a little. On many occasions in public, he tried repeatedly to catch my glance with that intense gaze— the “dopamine fuse”! (Just named it)
While just passing LO, my eyes could not help being drawn to his, as if a tremendous magnetic force just pulled them there. Afterwards, my whole system was charged up, sometimes for a couple days…
Good luck in your NC process.
I really like to look at how blue her eyes are.
Sometimes I think I can see eternity looking into them, it’s just been that powerful. A lot times, she would be the one to look away first. Other times I would catch her glaring at me from her desk. Her gaze fixed on me. Usually expressionless, but nonetheless a locked-on stare. It was like she was looking into my soul, it felt like. I don’t know if that was her dopamine fix she needed or just her way of freaking out seeing me. Either way, I was enjoying the hell out of her eye contact and I know she knew that. Nobody has ever looked at me that way. And I’ve never seen eyes more beautiful than hers.
@MJ
Wow, so beautifully described! I wish my LO got a dopamine fix from my helpless eyes… that intense gaze in his eyes faded 1.5 years ago, though he still claims to wish a “friendship”; it’s too painful for me.
I don’t know what’s your story, can you just keep enjoying such precious, soul-piercing gaze? Why a need to go LC/NC?
I’m really not trying go NC but almost have to by default, because she does not work in the same building as I do now. She transferred out to an alternate building our company operates next door, last winter. I still see her a few times a week, when/if she comes by for lunch to see her friends. Or if she has business to take care of. The eye contact isn’t what it used to be, but she still notices me.
Sometimes I think she transferred to get away from me. I think she has an SO and doesn’t want to ruin it, which I understand. While I would love to love her, I don’t want to mess things up either. So irritating her is not an option.
“From a man’s perspective, when you intensely look into your LO’s eyes, what do you see? Or what do you search in them?”
@Snowphoenix.
Ooh, ooh, ooh! Can anyone play this game? I would like to have a go! What exactly have I seen in the eyes of LOs and potential limerents over the years?
In the eyes of my primary (straight/bisexual male) LO, I saw … scorn, arrogance, amusement, indifference. I think I saw an unspoken challenge: “I think a lot of myself and I’m not easily impressed. Impress me if you can, and maybe someday I’ll pretend to care.”
In the eyes of my secondary (straight male) LO, I saw … guileless friendship, tenderness and affection alternating with contempt, an occasional desire for validation, childlike curiosity, boredom.
In the eyes of a straight female who was acting limerent around me, I saw … shyness, self-consciousness, a series of unasked questions and unspoken statements. These questions and statements were: “Do you like me? How do you feel about me? Why won’t you tell me how you feel? I don’t want to tell you how i feel until you tell me how you feel first. I think I’m pretty enough for you or any other male, but I don’t want to risk rejection by showing my hand just yet. Say something – it’s your move, buddy, and you’re not reacting.”
In the eyes of a straight/bisexual male who was acting limerent around me, I saw … fear, a desire for validation, uncertainty, confusion, something that at times seemed to approach pure love/ecstasy. I also heard an unspoken plead: “Please do or say something that indicates you like me, so I can relax. Please rescue me from this horrible state of anxiety I find myself in.”
In the eyes of a gay male who was acting limerent around me, I saw … shyness, fear, insecurity, defiance, indignation, longing, amusement, pride, euphoria, giddiness, happiness when he secured my admiring gaze. Also: a childish desire to provoke jealousy.
Hi James.. I was just listening to this audiobook called How to “Break your Addiction to a person” and what you mention is what this book talks about too.
However I do not personally have they experience. I don’t believe that anything in my childhood is causing me to develop limerence.
While, I do remember that I was always scared that my parents may leave and abandon me, it isn’t actually the feeling of this that I remember. I remember it as a fact as if I was told that. Also, my parents never ever intended on doing that or caused me in anyway to believe it.
I am very skeptical of blaming all our current issues on childhood stuff, unless in extreme cases where one really suffered for a long time. Most of us barely remember the early childhood days anyway.
Just my thoughts..
I agree with you completely on that last part Lola. So much of what I read and hear is blame this limerence on a cptsd issue and I disagree also. I grew up in a loving home with 2 parents, that loved me unconditionally and never considered divorce or threatened me with abandonment.
What I do blame is, I never really was taught how to communicate effectively with people or with the opposite sex. I ended up having to learn on my own. Which may have caused me some anxiety issues and some bullying issues with kids when I was young. Whether or not this was traumatic enough I can’t say. But I’m not going to investigate on it too much. This limerence has happened and now I just have to deal.
MJ,
I think some of us just have those personality traits that causes us to get too obsessive over stuff. I am that person in general. If I get my mind set to something, I follow through. I pick up a lot of hobbies and I become very good with them. I focus on something and put all my energy into it until I am satisfied that I have done better than most people.
I think this is similar with Limerence.. I put my mind on this person and now my “hobby” is to obsess over them and imagine situations, and think of way how to make them return the obsession, it otherwise I don’t feel like I have “won”. I think that I need to change what “winning” means on this case. Instead of making the LO return the Limerence, it should be getting rid of it all together.
My LE is probably more of an escape than anything else. I am a part time caretaker for my Father, who is withering away with Parkinsons. I have a moody/angry teenage Daughter that greatly resents me for a decade old divorce and I’ve made just a lot of crappy choices in life that land me where I am now. None of this is very flattering and depression can build up at times. Add an LO to this mix, that pretty much seems to have little to no interest in me and there are days that I question what’s the point of even going on anymore. Talk about a roller coaster of emotions. She really is the last thing I needed to add to this hot mess. Yet when it happened, it hit me like a Mack truck. I have obsessed over this Woman for well over a year now and it’s really gone nowhere. What an incredible waste of time this limerence is.
Think I just read somewhere else on here, limerence can be a form of autism? Holy crap maybe it’s true. But I’m no expert. Then again, read this insanity I just posted here. I’m just off my rocker and completely out of my mind. Still say I wouldn’t wish this on anybody.
I hope they I don’t obsess for a whole year. I got some “hope” back this week and my mind has been going places again. I know I will be crashing with deep sadness again in a couple of days.
@Lola,
Yep, been there too. An intense high, followed by a crushing low. I’ll cry for hours if it’s a bad one. So I feel you with that so called “hope”.
Hey MJ,
Limerence isn’t a form of autism. You’re either autistic or you’re not – autistic people have a wide range of different traits and different levels of being able to cope with various aspects of life but limerence isn’t the cause or result of being autistic. Having said that, it does appear from a Facebook group I belong to, that a significant proportion of autistic people suffer from limerence. That’s how I first found out about this blog actually. I have no idea why – maybe because of a struggle to identify other peoples’ motivations and feelings, a tendency to obsess and to misinterpret peoples’ behaviour towards us.
Neither autism or limerence are insanity either. It’s just the way our brains work. You’re depressed and stuck and hurting but you can get out of this. It may be that your brain does work differently but hopefully that’s something a therapist can guide you with.
Have you seen the Kenneth Branagh ‘Cinderella’? “Have courage and be kind” (to yourself).
Hugs.
MJ,
As I predicted, today it is sadness. I am starting to wonder if my moods even have anything to do with what LO does or if is what I convince myself that he is thinking.
He has been so confusing.
I hate this sooo much…. I just want to tell him everything and find out what’s his deal. But I can’t.
I disagree with this assessment, James. As I discuss here limerence and attachment disorders overlap and amplify each other, but I do not think that childhood trauma explains limerence, as many stably attached people with happy childhoods are also limerents.
Well, I was only presenting a hypothesis (I incorrectly called it a theory); I apologize for the unqualified statement. I should have taken more time and thought it through a little better. I guess the point I was really trying to make is that something COULD make a very big impression on you very early in life, something significant enough to make you vulnerable to such a profoundly powerful emotion as limerence. The whole babysitter/shattered expectations scenario seems plausible in some cases, possibly setting up conditions for a life of cascading failure. Of course, we could just simply be genetically predisposed for it. I’ve mentioned autism. Or maybe I’m just an overbearing goofball that tries too hard. : )
As a “stably attached person with a happy childhood” I blame myself. My limerence is my own. I willfully each passing day let this woman glimmer more and more for me. Did she manipulate me? Possibly. Too many things in psychology and human behavior are laid at the feet of our parents. Which I think is grossly unfair. And this is coming from a 40 something with numerous mommy issues. But I still have to own my behavior.
Personally I think present conditions in life say more about dependency on limerence that childhood. Married 23 years, we got one in college, one a senior in high school. Soon we will be the only two in the house. I’m halfway through my life. My wife is my one and only. Is it existential crisis? Is it a mid life crisis? Or am I just a selfish *rick that wanted his cake and eat it too? The answer to that depends on who you ask.
My father provided for us all our lives as my mother cared for us day to day. I have little to complain about my childhood. And yet this woman seduced me into a state that I look back now on with shame. Not just for my wife. Not just for my children. But for her as well. I could have had a healthy relationship with her as I have/do have with many current and former female co-workers. I guess maybe she “can do magic, she can have anything she desires.” Women will be the death of me long before alcohol. :-/
Hi all,
Just out of left field here
Has anyone tried medication (antidepressants etc) to help get through the rough parts in the beginning of the end?
I know it’s just a band aid solution, but this is my second go~around and frankly I’m sinking.
Anna
@Anna
SSRIs are horrible turning one into a zombie, besides all sides effects! I’d rather take another two LE rides than ever taking one more pill.
I feel, therefore I am — snowphoenix
Really not mean to mock your pain, which I knew so well a long while ago (while going NC with LO #5).
I’ve been on a low daily dose of anti-depressants for several years. They don’t numb me or turn me into a zombie and my SO will confirm that in no way are my emotions muted! It just takes the edge off so I don’t sink too far down when I have a bad day. Apart from recently when they haven’t quite been able to cut it against the LE breakdown.
Anti-depressants can be extremely helpful – I’m sure there are people who despite trying several kinds they don’t work for, but I’d hate people not to even approach their doctor for help because they think anti-depressants turn people into zombies.
@Cfc
My body is very very sensitive in general and reacts badly even to antibiotics. I try to avoid speaking about any phenomenon that I have not personally experienced. However, I realize that each human body is unique, no universal conclusions should be made in terms of its reactions towards any intakes.
I was on SSRI for 6.5 years with 4 or 5 kinds (after NC #5), because the effects wore off soon or later. When does had be increased, I helpless became a zombie — the fact I learned when a range of emotions came back after withdrawing them gradually in 4 months.
I’m glad that antidepressants is working for you in general; perhaps a new type needs to be tried with limerence. I (only) read that Lexapro could be a help. Maybe some brave limerents here dare to try it and let the rest of us know.
I took Lexapro years ago. A very small dose and it took the edge off. Not enough to make it worth it I think..
I finally got off of it. I take enough medications for other stuff now. I’m not adding 1 more pill if I don’t have to.
I took SSRI’s many years ago from the anxiety I was having because of a job I had. I can’t remember what the names of them were, but the first one I almost instantly found completely ruined …. uh my uh ability.
The second one actually worked too well with no side effects. I walked around my job with a big “*uck you” attitude. I could totally care less about anything else but doing my actual job. The anxiety was gone, but that was about all I could feel. Even when I got home. It was great for the job but not so much for the home life. Thankfully when I left the job I got off the medicine.
Hi Anna, welcome.
I have thought about it. I have been on Zoloft in the past and know that it works for me and it really takes the edge off, especially if you are person who stresses about everything. I think it would help me not care about every single thing LO does. But at the same time, I really don’t want to get back on antidepressants. It does numb the emotions a lot. I was unable to feel sad and cry.
I will personally try to stick it out a bit longer before I go that route. However if you feel like you cannot go on the way you have been and your life is very affected, it medication is something to consider and discuss with your doctor.
I listened to a podcast recently where they spoke about antidepressants for Limerence and supposedly Zoloft is the most effective one for this particular “problem”.
Just checking in to emphasise that there are no approved drugs for treatment of limerence and no one should take any pharmaceuticals without advice from a medical professional.
Thank You everyone, I appreciate your advice on medication
DR. L, no worries, was going to call my doctor, would never take anything unless prescribed by him
I don’t like meds, especially for mood regulation
I’m sure you can all agree that sometimes all of this can be so overwhelming!
Was lookin’ for a short cut lol
I never dreamed in a thousand years that I would be dealing with another LE, this one more intense than the last.
I’ll hang in there
~Anna
Hi Anna. By the third day of limerence, something that shocked me to the core, I felt I was heading for a nervous breakdown. So I started Deanxit for anxiety and Lorivan ,1/2 mg to sleep. It has helped me cope with anxiety since I came to the point I couldn’t breath. I also did a lot of breathing excersises, walking fast for an hour, setting time apart for ruminating and crying… I was a zombie, operating in automatic pilot for ten long months, mind totally hijacked with 24/7 intrusive thoughts. It’s been five months I got back some control of my mind and thoughts . Still need the medication. It’s a rough ride, let me tell you. Just a deep sorrow and sadness is left behind. But with patience and self determination one can come out of it sooner or later. So I hope, lo will be erased from my mind completely. Check with your doctor. Good luck .
@Dr.L
As for your approach to and explanation of limerence, I can only say (in my subjective manner) that it completely corresponded with my own experience. If it is worth something, this is EXACTLY how it all felt/went for me, the whole process. Inclusive the process of getting real with myself and shaking the limerence off.
In retrospective (now I am not limerent anymore), it described to a great detail what had happened to me, within me and how to get out of it (considering I really wanted to get out), what to expect.
The book is also great. Very to the point and compact, which I appreciate dearly. I could of easily and quickly acces the parts I needed, when I needed them.
Also, as I am not religious, it is important for me that there are no vague categories. (When I red Amanda Trenfield’s book, I completely lost it when she took oracle cards for answers!)
Dorothy Tenov’s book is good, but in some sense also archaic.
I would of read more, but there aren’t many limerent books. It is all still an unexplored minefield and all your efforts are very appreciated.
After all this transpired, I have made ‘an emergency package’, consisting of your book, Tenov‘s book, list of links, poems and music numbers etc that can help people cope. For my son, as it tends to run in the families (hope he never feels it!). And as a small reminder/memento for me, of my own recovery process.
Thank you for everything.
D.G.