One of the weird features of limerence is the ongoing desire for contact with LO even after you’ve realised it’s unhealthy and bad for you. Well, actually, it’s not all that weird – it’s a common enough feature of lots of habits and addictions. You know you’ll feel awful after one drink too many, but you keep wanting another. You know you’re starting to struggle for breath on the stairs – a deep part of you knows where this unhealthy life will lead – but you still want another slice of pizza.
Where does it come from, this contradictory desire for something that makes you feel bad about yourself?
I write a lot about limerence as a neurochemical phenomenon. About reward, and dopamine, and brainstems and executive function and all that jazz. But mostly I stick to the textbook stuff: the things we’ve known for a long time and are convinced are basically right. Well, the stimulating thing about science is that it’s always moving forwards, and the last couple of decades have seen a bit of a shift in the way that some researchers think that pleasure and reward work. I think some of these new ideas could help explain limerence.
The central claim for this new view about reward is that dopamine is not actually the signal that communicates pleasure. It’s a bit tricksy this, but the most straightforward way to explain it is that there is a fundamental difference between “liking” and “wanting”.
Pleasure, as we experience it in the moment, is an immediate sense of enjoyment and excitement. The little bliss provoked by a sweet taste, or maybe a compliment, or a sexy caress. That would fall under “liking” and is the basis of the “feeling good” part of any pleasurable experience.
But, to be useful for survival, liking something has to be recognised and you have to learn “oh that’s a good thing”, and then you have to feel “I want to do more of that good thing.” It’s not very useful to blunder around acting randomly and hoping you stumble on things you like from time to time. You’ve got to learn what you like and seek it out. Although those urges are tightly tangled up together, it turns out that they may depend on distinct brain regions.
Hedonic hotspots
We know that dopamine is central to reward. That’s settled. But the new research suggests that dopamine isn’t actually central to liking. It’s central to wanting. Instead, there are a small number of tiny regions of the brain known as “hedonic hotspots” that actually cause the liking sensation, and the neurochemical triggers for those neuronal networks are endogenous opioids (like endorphins) and endocannabinoids.
I don’t want to get bogged down in the details, but by very careful experimentation, it’s possible to pick apart the separate processes of feeling pleasure and wanting pleasure. And because these are separate circuits you can get independent activation. Hell, you can even flip it so that pleasant things (like sugar) cause an aversive response.
The implications for limerence
Now this is cutting edge stuff, with all the associated uncertainty, but it does make a lot of sense, and it does seem to map on to real life experience. I want coffee regularly throughout the day, and I enjoy it, but it tasted bitter and repellent the first time I tried it. You have to learn to link the caffeine reward with the flavour for long enough to turn on the “wanting” circuits even though the “liking” circuits tell you you’re nuts.
Similarly, liking something fades over time – too much of a good thing, and all that – but the wanting takes much longer to follow. That fits with an addiction framework, in that the actual driving force for behaviour is craving a fix, even after the fix has stopped giving the same high. So, we get ourselves hooked on limerence because we like it sooo much at first, that we come to want it. To seek it. But even after we get trapped into the toxic cycle of intrusive thoughts, mean LOs, shame, anxiety and humiliation, we still want them. Our dopamine circuits are firing away “seek seek seek” but our hedonic hotspots have closed for business.
Another interesting point to note is that the distribution and sensitivity of hedonic hotspots can be altered by other factors, like stress, hunger, and other discomforts. That means that you like things less when you’re stressed, but you still want them. In fact – irony of ironies – you want them more than ever because you are seeking relief, but it’s less likely than ever that they will give you that hedonic pleasure.
And finally, it turns out that many different sources of pleasure all work through the same hotspots. So, chocolate, orgasms, limerence and heroin may all depend on the same little bundles of cells to evoke their fundamental sensation of pleasure. It’s our higher centres in the cortex that make sense of the different contexts and meanings of the pleasures, but they have a common origin.
All very fascinating. It’s a fast moving field and there is plenty of cause for caution, but I think it does help us get closer to understanding the addict’s paradox of desperately wanting something you no longer like.
So next time you find yourself craving the company of an LO who treats you like crap, remember that it’s perfectly possible to want something that makes you feel bad, and resolve to listen more closely to your liking circuits and ignore the idiot demands of your dimwitted wanting circuits.
Scharnhorst says
It is interesting.
Can you relate this to something like PTSD? One of the therapists said that with respect to LO #2, I was showing symptoms of PTSD. I asked why she thought that and her response was that 20 years later I still carried her ghost, I could recall events verbatim, and I had blanked out the period from the time she declined my marriage proposal until she moved across the country. The therapist asked what I thought PTSD was.
I told her the breakup was as amicable as it got. The therapist replied not all trauma was violent. She said my experience was more akin to watching someone die slowly of a terminal illness than losing them suddenly in a car accident. She said that I saw relationship dying. I didn’t want that and nothing I did could stop it. She said that was trauma.
So, what part of the brain is holding on to that?
drlimerence says
Not sure the wanting/liking distinction is directly relevant to PTSD. The intrusive thinking of limerence may well have an overlap (and with OCD). I’m not so familiar with the neuroscience on PTSD. A good new direction for my research…
catcity13 says
DrL I think the trauma angle as it relates to LE’s will be fruitful. It really resonated with me when I started looking into it, especially as described by Alan Robarge. He talks about how the intrusive thoughts that take over our minds can sometimes be the result of a traumatic loss. The degree to which we anchor our LO to our idealized concept of love, validation, connection, acceptance is the degree to which we’re susceptible to emotional trauma when things go sideways. Your brain has coded and linked this person to the be source of all these wonderful things to the exclusion of everyone else. So, even though an actual relationship has not occurred, the loss can still feel profound.
His description really hit home with me!
https://youtu.be/UeLUuwmRGn4
Emma says
Thank you Sharnhorst and Catcity, I really think you touched something important here that we could explore further. I’ve never thought I could suffer from PTSD as I didn’t experience any trauma that I can think of. But as Sharnhorst writes, trauma isn’t necessarily violent, wow! It seems to make sense that, if our limerence is such a strong addiction, it has to come from a very deep unmet need or yes, maybe even trauma. Some childhood experiences aren’t objectively traumas but could very well have been a traumatic experience for a child.
Catcity, thanks for linking to Alan Robardge, I will listen further to some of his videos. Which particular video did you want to share with your YouTube link?
catcity13 says
Hi Emma –
Weird that my youtube link did not work. The name of Alan’s video I wanted to share is called “Obsessing Over an Ex-Partner – Trauma Mind”.
I can’t help but think that in going no contact, I made this unnecessarily hard on myself, and “created” a worse trauma mind than I may otherwise have had. I will never know, but I kind of regret doing no contact. It left me with zero closure and ruptured the relationship. It’s been one of the most difficult experiences of my life, and I have had one or two doozies, trust me.
While I was in the worst throes of trauma mind, I almost never dreamed of my LO (I still hate that term). Then, after he left the company at the end of June I started dreaming about him fairly often. I was googling around, as I usually do, and stumbled across a blog talking about dreaming of ex-loves as a symptom of trauma. In going down that rabbit hole, I discovered Alan Robarge.
William says
@catcity13: Were you and your LO both single? Because I can see that being a potent situation for regret if you never acted on your attraction; you could have become a couple. But if one or both of you had an SO… then what “closure” could you have gotten out of the situation? Disclosing your feelings would have opened a whole can of worms, which is the opposite of closure if you ask me.
Thinker says
This video really resonated with me. “This is really not about the other person. This is about how I have a history of not having meaningful relationships, or I do not have relationships with people who offer a level of emotional engagement that I need to feel nourished in this world. To feel validated in this world. To feel affirmed and to feel loved.” My SO does give me a lot; not everything, as that is simply too much to ask of any one person and impossible. And I didn’t know what I was missing. My friendship (then subsequent close relationship) with LO gave me different emotional validation and feelings from what I felt SO could give me.
While this video was informative, I am in a better place than 6-24 months ago and am apprehensive about going doing the path of youtube clicking to hours/days worth of other psychoanalysis. I will resist the endless offerings of the internet so as to not obsess with the foundation of my obsessions. Right now, they would serve more as a reminder of my limerence rather than serve as relief from it. At least I know there is more out there if I need it. Hopefully I can now focus more on living my life than examining it.
catcity13 says
I’m glad you liked the video, Thinker. Alan Robarge is great – he has a low tolerance for BS and really calls out self-defeating thought patterns and behaviors. He quickly rose to the top of my youtube therapy sessions, lol. He’s waiting for you when or if you need more.
@William: No, I wasn’t single. Can of worms indeed, or as I prefer to call it, “swirling vortex of hell”.
Scharnhorst says
@Catcity,
I tried to listen to the video you linked but got an ad for hearing aids. I poked around and listened to this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeRvdQc4EFI
One thing I didn’t understand about about my last LE was the level of anxiety I got when LO #4 tried to get closer. The closer she got the higher my anxiety went. The thing is, she was 2500 miles away and we’d never met. On paper, she wasn’t any kind of credible threat.
After listening to Robarge’s stream, I think I understand. LO #4 hit a very specific childhood event in my life. While LO #2 hit some buried triggers, she never hit that one. Robarge said that trauma is stored at the level of activation. The closer LO #4 got, the more activated the childhood trauma became.
catcity13 says
Hi Scharnhorst – there is a treasure trove of videos on Alan’s channel. It sounds like you are consciously aware of the specific childhood event that LO#4 triggered? I wish I could say the same….I have obviously had attachment issues since my teenage years, and my SO has cured me of them to a really remarkable degree, bless him….but the source of my own attachment insecurity is mostly vague.
I will try the link about “Trauma Mind” again – it had me in tears when I remembered how bad I was last winter. Like Thinker said, I have to be careful how much of this stuff I consume because it can be a setback, aka like wallowing in misery:
https://youtu.be/D4N0UDijV5c
Scharnhorst says
@Catcity
The therapist and I found the connection and dealt with most of it. But, we never really went at it from the trauma angle.
Nobody’s life is clean. LO #2 once told me:
“I don’t understand you. Your parents were both alcoholics and divorced when you were young. You were raised by a loving but emotionally cold grandmother. Your father and grandfather committed suicide and your mother died of an overdose of pills and alcohol. And, yet, you maintain it’s had no effect on your development.”
I told her it had no discernible effect since I had nothing to compare it to and it wasn’t like someone had offered me choices and those were the ones I picked.
I played the hand I was dealt.
When I started looking into things, I confided in an old friend and let her read the history of my relationship with LO #2. She knew LO #2. My friend said, “I never knew you were in so much pain.”
DogGirl says
Thank you that was interesting to watch.
Bert says
This news is fascinating. Thank you for the clear explanation. It’s also interesting how much effort is involved in getting the higher brain to supersede those wanting circuits. (Hence us all still here reading your wonderful posts!)
Sara says
I guess the craving of a good LO is even more difficult to overcome for my brain… why cant I have him because I want him and I like him… this is where the concept of morality comes into play, which is maybe not related to neuroscience as such?
Midlifer says
Hi Sara, I feel for you!
I have tried to reframe my (somewhat similar) situation as follows: it’s not that I can’t have LO, really, it’s that he can’t have me. Because I am the one who is unavailable (he’s single, I’m married) and I don’t intend to become available or to bust my marital boundaries. Obviously, to hurt one’s SO by cheating would be wrong, and that’s the most important place where morality comes into it, as you say, but there’s more harm to both LO and me that would derive from that primary wrong and would impose significant moral costs too: if I were to set out to seduce LO right now I most likely could ‘have him’ … temporarily, furtively, with a lot of guilt and shame and secrecy and betrayal, which would crash his self-esteem and mine. So it wouldn’t be truly loving or respectful to LO or to myself, in addition to harming SO’s interests (whether or not SO were ever to find out).
As Scharnhorst has said somewhere: your LO is not the prize, you are the prize!
What I can’t have, really, is the experience of giving myself to LO — and my limerent desire to do so and to witness his temporary pleasure in having me just goes to show, I think, how limerence is (in my case) ‘all about me’ and about wanting to be seen/appreciated by another.
What do you think — does that make sense to you?
Sara says
Hmm yes it makes sense. It is weird its my second limerent experience a few years ago I was single and he was married 17 yrs older.. i just had to change country to go my way because I couldnt build my life in his presence. It was mutual limerence because we discussed it and confirmed our mutual feelings
This “new” limerence is also mutual i think we are making jokes how addicted we became to each other . So yeah I experienced that the best way is just to avoid the object of obsession and eventually your brain “forgets” . The conflit between wanting and liking doesnt exist in my limerent experiences there are good LOs we both like each other it tuns obsessive for one reason or another (primary reason is one of us already married) . With morality i learn to overcome my animalistic attraction
Midlifer says
Thanks for your insightful reflections, Sara. It helps me a lot to hear about your experiences and the way you think about them. Wishing you every success.
Peg says
Excellent points about the destruction of everyone involved if limerence is acted upon, and also about how selfish it can be. Both are great motivators to stay faithful to yourself and an SO.
Sara says
Midlifer thank you and also wishing you and all the limerents good luck!! It is soo hard and draining emotionally 🙁
drlimerence says
Yes, this is a good point, Sara. Often we do continue to “like” and well as “want” LO -in that their company is still enjoyable. And that is more of a matter of morality than addiction.
Really the neuroscience here is most relevant for when you really want to get out of limerence but can’t overcome the resistance of old habits. So, when the experience has turned negative, but the limerent still finds themselves endlessly circling back for more contact or unable to silence the intrusive thoughts – maybe in the deluded hope that some of the old reward might come back.
Rachel says
‘Really the neuroscience here is most relevant for when you really want to get out of limerence but can’t overcome the resistance of old habits. So, when the experience has turned negative, but the limerent still finds themselves endlessly circling back for more contact or unable to silence the intrusive thoughts – maybe in the deluded hope that some of the old reward might come back’
Yes this has certainly been me for the last few months. I couldn’t wrap my brain around the fact that this person was making me feel utterly awful but I there I was in a mental rut, desperate for more contact and validation from LO. Im making a huge amount of progress now. I can be in the company of LO with no real pull. The attraction has completely gone to the point I feel a bit queesey when I think of him in that way. My anxiety about LO is on a huge down turn. What’s actually helping is, controversally, being in his presence, really taking off the rose tinted glasses and actually listening to his thoughts and views about different topics. Most of which I really find unappealing. I sometimes battle with the urge to message if Im feeling a bit low and need a pick me up but Ive managed to resist and I thank myself later. I think this is somehow linked to my phone addiction but at least this can be managed. What a journey. Cautiously, I’ve been waiting for a relapse but one hasnt come? I’m able to be in control in LOs present and of he tries to talk emotionally or tries enabling me, I have absolutely none of. This feeling is amazing. Yes I’m not fully there yet but I can see the peak of the mountain! Most of the progress is down to Dr L and everyone who has advised me on here. This is such an amazing place for us limerent who get what each other are feeling. Long live LWL!
Rachel says
Presence
Sarah says
I think you’re on excellent track, Rachel. You can now be in presence of LO and see him for what he really is, and your limerent brain no longer idealizes him or ignores his flaws. Sounds like your limerent fog is really lifting!
I’m slowly getting there too. I haven’t seen LO recently, but feel no need to talk or text him. I was at a wedding this w’end and once LO popped into my mind and I quickly pushed the thought away.
Infidel-no-more says
Dear Dr. Limerence:
Thank you for this informative blog of two years. It’s been a year since a brief emotional involvement with a superior at work ended and I thought I’d share my experience & get some feedback from anyone reading.
Background: I’m a mid-30s average guy with a loving wife. A little over a year ago at work I became friends with a woman who’s more skilled (more years of experience) at my workplace (not direct supervisor so no conflict of interest). She’s in her late 40s and single.
Over the period of a few months we had half a dozen work-related conversations and I became limerent. The two of us went to the movies once and hiked twice, engaged in thoughtful conversation, nothing lewd. She’s incredibly well educated.
This was before I read your blog. Didn’t know disclosure of feelings was “nuclear”. So I disclosed (with something non-committal from her) and we stopped having friendly chats at work. We’re far apart in a large network of buildings so the chances of bumping into each other was slim.
I thought she didn’t reciprocate so LE got better. Meanwhile I’ve tried to be extra kind to my wife, who’s a good spouse.
Then at a work function I ran into LO and we finally exchanged numbers (after a lot of banter and awkwardness on my part). She started calling me to discuss work but the topics inevitably became more personal). I finally told dear wife about it and she was surprisingly non-judgmental, but requested no more phone conversations. That ended things for good.
After seeing your posts on narcs, I wonder if LO was stringing me along? She knew I was married from day one. Why encourage my limerence knowing how inappropriate it was for us both? While never fully disclosing, she hinted at reciprocation through vague language, saying she misses me, how fun it was to meet once in a while.
Wouldn’t the noble thing to do (on her part) be to cut me loose? To not flirt and exchange compliments?
Why did she stay in this “intimate friendship”? She’s lonely and needs companionship, that I know. And the ego boost was nice I’m sure. But why would she persist in being friends (as if nothing was revealed) after the nuclear option? She also said she wants to help with work-related problems or stresses I’m having.
Maybe other people have had similar experiences? Thanks for your advice.
Peg says
You are very fortunate to have an understanding spouse! Cling to that to ward off limerence. Keep her in the know with any/ all developments with LO. Your wife may have a limit to her understanding if something comes as a surprise. That is completely normal.
There is a risk in trying to determine whether someone is a narc. I put a sociopath label on my LO from 7 years ago. It helped me move on at the time, but I still don’t know what his intentions were toward me. They could have been legitimate or he could have just wanted to use me. I will never know. At the time, I obsessed over figuring him out and wasted a lot of time and energy on it. It isn’t worth it.
Just give your wife a giant hug from the rest of us and focus on being mentally stable with her. Keep that relationship strong. LO will move on whether she is just a lonely lady or is a narc and finds a victim.
My current LE is not someone I will ever figure out either. That fact has helped me focus on my marriage.
Bert says
From what I understand, endlessly trying to figure out our LOs, is a characteristic of limerence. I guess it is a way to help us process this mysterious, overwhelming condition that we find ourselves in. But thinking objectively, we wouldn’t analyze our friends or colleagues in the same way. The truth is, it doesn’t matter what they think or how they feel. Or even how they act. What matters is how we act towards them. Kindness and respect towards everyone is a good default mode, but with LOs, it’s best to retreat however best we can so we can heal ourselves. Then, with caution, re-establish contact, only if necessary. For safety’s sake, it is best to let them go.
Scharnhorst says
For me, having two professional opinions (not diagnoses) that LO #2 likely had a personality disorder went a long way in getting me to stop wondering “What if I’d said this?” “What if I’d done this?” “What if I’d held out longer?” The big one:
“What if when LO #2 was standing in my living room and came on to me 5 minutes after learning I was seeing the woman who became my wife and said, ‘If I sleep with you now, you’ll own me again,’ and I took her up on it instead of asking her to leave?” Had I done that, I think my life would have taken a different turn. I suspect my wife would have taken a dim view of me sleeping with my ex while I was dating her.
Having two professionals validate that I was playing a game I could never win did wonders for me. Having a good idea of who your LO is can go a long way in how you deal with them. But, like most things, you don’t want to get stuck there.
Scharnhorst says
It’s not a precise rendering of the entire conversation but it’s in the same Zip Code.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORarKBSplwI
Sarah says
Hi Infidel-no-more, thanks for sharing your story. That actually triggered a thought about an event that was defining in my LE, the staying in the intimate friendship after I disclosed.
In a nutshell, LE and I have been texting a lot and I realized I liked him. Eventually thought about pulling myself back a bit as I felt it went in the wrong direction. A few days later (LO looked like shit) we sit at coffee and he asks me if he can ask me something. In my mind I thought “oh-oh, we’re going to have “the talk” now, about how we have feelings for each other and how it can’t go any further”. He said he stayed up all night going through the history of our text conversations to figure out where he might have said something to push me away, but he couldn’t figure out what he did to upset me (clear bpd behavior I know now, at the time I had no clue). I said yes I started to text less on purpose but could we please talk about this after work. So later I told him I liked him hence wanted to retract a bit as it is going too far. He seemed surprised and said he has no feelings for me whatsoever, he only sees me as a friend, nothing more, he doesn’t see where I could get this from (we spent pretty much every coffee break together, went for dinner, drinks, movies… I was like it feels like we are dating) anyway, long story short, he said there was nothing on his end and he clearly knew I developed feelings for him. But instead of cooling down, he continued to act the same way (deep conversations, occasional accidental touch, driving me home etc) and I think that then really started to fuel my limerence and addictive behavior, I started to interpret every one of his action, googled how do you know if someone likes you, etc, and also to test how far I could go (what does he do if I just take his hand, he suggests to go swimming? Wtf, etc) I know, all wrong on my end, I get that, but I think that’s the point where my mind went crazy. This went on for months, and he kept on letting me get slowly closer but never initiated anything. It drove me crazy. And so I wondered as well, why did he continue the same way as before I disclosed?
Bert says
I’m not sure where to post this, but this seems as likely a place as any. In my class yesterday, we talked about habits, and habit formation. I sited the book “Power of Habit” by Charles Duhigg. One of my students (all adults) had read it also and recalled a passage about willpower. The sited scientific studies were specifically about resisting temptation and they all came to the same conclusion. Here’s the passage from the book:
“Will power isn’t just a skill. It’s a muscle, like the muscles in your arms or legs, and it gets tired as it works harder, so there’s less power left over for other things.”
But it was also found that willpower “muscles” could be strengthened. “People get better at regulating their impulses. They learn how to distract themselves from temptations. And once you’ve gotten into that willpower groove, your brain is practiced at helping you focus on a goal.”
Increase in willpower in one area of life, apparently spills over into willpower in other areas too.
It seems like overcoming limerence requires a lot of willpower, so having a deeper understanding maybe helpful.
Rachel says
Sarah. These people are typical to get us hooked! I think normal people with healthy boundaries wouldn’t give us intermittent reinforcement. Therefore not making us limerent or addicted. My LO would say he has feelings for me but would pull away and be cold and then in the next breathe be super nice friendly and flirty. Mixed signals constantly. I’ve given up caring now. Maybe it was real to him or maybe it was a little game he was playing to keep me hooked. Either way im done!
I’m not saying all LO’s are toxic but most of them are unstable in their emotions therefore eractic with their behaviour and communication, getting us hooked! It’s all a fantasy and illusion. When I think about it I feel really sad about all the wasted energy, time and emotions I’ve spent on LO for absolutely nothing but pain. For me limerence is a mental health disorder and truely I am not myself in a LE.
Sarah says
Yeah, I think infidel-no-more just kinda triggered the realization that under “normal circumstances” this would have ended there, where you realize, shit, this is going into the wrong direction I must stop this now, and it would have ended there. But it didn’t. And of course it is my fault it didn’t end there. But so far I always saw LO as the nice guy that just wanted to be friends with me and I’m the bad person that kept on pushing it. He never initiated a physical relationship. But that moment there also doesn’t speak for him as he didn’t stop me either. According to him, he had no feelings for me, but he knew I had feelings for him. He could have kept his distance (not like he was love struck and just couldn’t help himself) but he didn’t (for whatever reason, doesn’t matter). When I was laying in his arms once, I told him I know this wrong, he just said, you’re not doing anything wrong, not like we’re making out or anything. He played his part too. Overall, I am the one that messed up, but he played a part too.
Lee says
He knew what he was doing and it was NOT KIND of him. AT ALL.
“He never initiated a physical relationship.”
He could very easily argue that he wasn’t the one who was married, so it wasn’t his responsibility to shut you down. I agree that a good person would have shut you down. But he had no stake in your marriage.
Scharnhorst says
Morality and ethics aside… she’s definitely is carrying more risk than he is. Depending on where she is, it can be a whole lot of risk.
“In Georgia, adultery plays a role in alimony cases. A spouse will not be entitled to alimony if it is established that the separation between the spouses was caused by that spouse’s adultery. The adultery committed by that spouse must be proven by a preponderance of the evidence. ” O.C.G.A. § 19-6-1.
Where I live, adultery is grounds for an immediate divorce. As the attorney put it to me, if I could prove it, the attorney “…could be in front of a judge in 24 hours.” It may take awhile to work through the custody and property agreements but you do it as a single person.
Sarah says
In the country I am from the reason for divorce does not influence the outcome, so in that sense I would not lose my kids, nor would it influence a split of our common financial assets. Adultry is also not punishable by law. Needless to say, of course, Lee, LO has no stake in my marriage, and I cannot make him responsible for my actions, I am very aware of that. I merely try to analyze how I happened to cross my own moral boundaries and find out where (or in how many moments) I failed to stop this, and what special factors or circumstances had come together (and developed a dynamic), so that it will never happen again.
Susan says
Thank you so much for this blog, Dr. L – I am 9 weeks no contact and doing pretty well, after completing your course and really working hard at re-framing all of the false notions I’d been holding onto for so long. Your blog entries have been amazingly timely for me – just the other day I was contemplating and wondering why in the world my mind STILL wants to think about my LO, knowing all that I now know, and along came this entry explaining the difference between liking and wanting. My subconscious is still protesting my progress but I can’t tell you enough how much knowing the science behind it has helped and encouraged me. Not sure where I’d be without this Limerence family!
drlimerence says
Great to hear you’re doing well, Susan. Congrats on how far you’ve come!
William says
Thank you, Dr. Limerence, for maintaining this blog. It has been a great help to me, and a great help to many other people. I was so glad to find that it is still active, because I need help (from anyone reading this). I started NC last year and have maintained it pretty well (outside of a few chance sightings) all this time, but now I’ve come to a crisis point.
In short, I want to attend a club meeting next week that will likely be attended by my LO (married). I am very lonely and isolated at the moment, and this club is the only social group in my area that interests me. (I live in a small town, so there aren’t many options.) However, as I said, I will likely encounter my LO at this club, and there won’t be any way for me to avoid her, as the meeting might be attended by as few as 4 or 5 other people.
Now, I am experienced enough with limerence to know that my intentions are not completely innocent. I want to see my LO. I want reciprocation. And I’m using many of the rationales outlined in the recent “Common mistakes that limerents make” post in order to justify my behavior. But I still can’t convince myself not to go, because not going means continuing to live in total isolation.
Ultimately, I feel like I’m caught between a rock and a hard place — social deprivation vs. limerence — and I don’t know what to do.
Midlifer says
Hi William,
I sympathize. Is there any other place you can go, or any other activity you can do, to get some social contact with other people (non-LOs) instead of going to the club meeting?
William says
I have searched and searched and can’t find anything else that appeals to me. Having selective interests is part of the problem, I guess.
I have other reasons for wanting to attend the club meeting too. The first is somewhat benign: I want to challenge myself and my ability to act normally around LO. I hate that my limerence is an issue between us, and I hate that it might be suspected by other people. If I were to appear nonchalant and uninterested in LO’s presence, then it might help to restore my own sense of dignity and cast some doubt on the idea that there was ever anything between us. (Note: I don’t know that anyone suspects anything, but from the way that I’ve been avoiding her, I would think that it might be obvious, which is embarrasing. I don’t like that.)
The second reason is more selfish and clearly motivated by limerence: I want to see how LO reacts to my presence. My NC was sudden and unexplained, and I suspect that LO had feelings for me at the time. She may have even been limerent for me. I would like to confirm this one way or the other, though I fully admit that my limerent brain is not suited to analyzing my own LO’s social cues.
Sigh… I don’t think anything can convince me not to go to that meeting at this point. I feel like I have to do it. There are too many strong motivators telling me to go. But how do I prepare myself and how do I cope with the emotional fallout afterwards? Because I’m pretty sure I won’t get reciprocation (at least, not the kind and amount that I want), which means I’ll be feeling pretty lousy afterwards.
Lee says
Very likely to be attended by your LO isn’t the same as definitely knowing she will be there.
Also, if there is any way you can find activities and social groups a little further away from your home stomping grounds, that might help too. I don’t know if you work and live in the same place, but maybe it is worth exploring stuff closer to work than home.
William says
Unfortunately, I live and work in the same town, and the surrounding towns are even smaller than this one. It’s very limiting as far as socializing is concerned. I wish I could uproot my whole life and move to the big city, but it’s just not possible right now.
And you’re right, I don’t know that my LO will be at the club meeting. And I don’t know what would come as a greater relief: seeing her or not seeing her. But over the past year, whenever we almost had an encounter, I always felt a great sense of relief when we ended up missing each other.
Who knows, maybe I’ll start driving out to this meeting, but get so nervous along the way that I have to turn right around and go home.
Thinker says
“And I don’t know what would come as a greater relief: seeing her or not seeing her.”
I have felt the same way. It will be difficult for you to go and not be consumed by “waiting” for her to arrive. I’m currently at 3+ weeks NC (part 2) since the last social event we both attended. It is possible that LO invites me to a party next month, so I kind of do AND don’t want to be invited. The majority of me does not want even an invitation so that I can remain NC and not have to think about a response. Hopefully this year, I will totally forget that her birthday had come and gone.
Sarah says
Hmm, i also got an invite for a social event that LO brought me to. I used to go (it was fun, but not my thing, I went to spend time with LO) deleted the invite. 🙂
BUT, agreed to catch up with LO for a drink (public space, across the table)… let’s see how that goes… i think I am gonna be slightly affected but still on the way to healing, let’s see.
Rachel says
Sarah… Do not do it… Please! I’ve made that mistake a ton of times.
Rachel says
Read post. I’m totally over this, let’s go for coffee..
Sarah says
Thank you Rachel, thank you for being the friend I don’t have (as no one knows). 🙁 I am considering moving it as it may be a bit inconvenient timing anyway, but you know I will eventually see him at some point… 🙁 I know it sounds stupid but I feel like I owe him an explanation (if he asks for one) and if he doesn’t it will be a boring work chat that supports my view that this is all that it is now, boring, and doesn’t give me anything, so it will slowly die down (wishful thinking or best possible outcome?)
Rachel says
It doesn’t sound stupid as that’s the exactly the same reason I kept telling myself. I have been there and I know it only leads to more pain. My LO lives on my street and believe me it’s been hard. But I’m still pushing forward. I have to interact with him but anything social it’s a big NO from me. However tempting it is! It’s hard I know. If you do decide to go please keep your guard up and no emotional talking. My LO makes it clear he has no care for me and it does hurt but I could go back to full blown limerence again so I’m quite glad
lowendj says
This might not be on topic, but i just heard an old Gene Pitney song that exactly described how i felt when in the depths of my LE. It makes me shudder to remember how bad it was.
https://youtu.be/TlN-rKMwF8M
Scharnhorst says
I love Gene Pitney!
My personal favorite is “Town Without Pity” and “24 Hours From Tulsa” also really good.
Scharnhorst says
“BUT, agreed to catch up with LO for a drink (public space, across the table)… let’s see how that goes… i think I am gonna be slightly affected but still on the way to healing, let’s see.”
Seriously??? Nothing good can come of this.
“I know it sounds stupid but I feel like I owe him an explanation (if he asks for one)”
You’ll make sure he does. You don’t owe him anything and whenever someone says that, it’s ALWAYS for their benefit not the recipients. Trust me, I heard it twice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZwYmlR9Lh8
lowendj says
Sarah,
Don’t do it!
Sarah says
I cancelled this week’s meeting… he moved it to next week though…
Scharnhorst says
Why did you let him do that?
Sarah says
I can’t wrap my head around why I can’t stop my limerent feeling for him. It must be possible. Why can’t we see each other every couple of weeks and just catch up like normal friends do. We don’t talk any emotional stuff anymore, we don’t text or get in contact like we used to… why do I have to shut him out of my life completely, I don’t want that (I know I am going in circles here) he’s fine with whatever terms and conditions I set…
Lee says
“I can’t wrap my head around why I can’t stop my limerent feeling for him. It must be possible.”
You have to starve it. If you continue to feed it by seeing him, talking to him, etc. then you still want it more than you want it to stop.
“If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.” -Rush
Scharnhorst says
“why do I have to shut him out of my life completely, I don’t want that (I know I am going in circles here)”
He’s an affair partner. He’s outside the scope of “normal friends.” Why try to walk a line you’ve already crossed? What about him is that compelling? If you want to try it, embrace it, and go for it. Be prepared to accept the consequences. My bet is you won’t be able to pull it off but you won’t live with the regret of knowing that you didn’t try. There will likely be plenty of other regret to fill that void.
You don’t get to say, “Oops, I crossed the line and I’ll try to dial it back.”
…”he’s fine with whatever terms and conditions I set…”
Of course, he is. He’s the only person in this triangle that this works for. I know. I was him. He gets your company and, at any given meeting, he could get lucky. Past performance isn’t a guarantee of future performance but it can give you a pretty good idea and you’ve established your limit.
From your description, he came across as pretty naive. I’m beginning to think he may better than I gave him credit for. If he’s playing with you, he’s doing a pretty good job of it. This could be sport for him. He’s going to be in this game as long as you let him. There’s no reason for him not to be.
Sarah says
I just don’t want to prove his point that everyone leaves him…
he made it pretty clear that no physical line will be crossed again, and I am going a step further to add that there will not be an EA either. But besides the emotional crap I actually enjoy his company to talk about work related people and stuff. Why can’t I shut my feelings down and just accept it on that level. Like I am fine not sharing jokes, memes etc. with him anymore, like harmless thoughts and things that used to trigger me writing to him just to share/small talk, I’m good at shutting that down.
drlimerence says
There are two big traps just in front of you Sarah:
Because he has tickled your brainstem in just the right way to trigger limerence, and that isn’t something you can shut down completely (except perhaps by full consummation). You can manage your feelings, but it’s an ongoing process of reprogramming; you can’t just shut it off. And if you keep exposing yourself to new limerence-fuel it will be harder.
It’s one of the worst consequences of limerence that people who we would otherwise enjoy being friends with are just not practically available. Not without a long period of emotional pain, risking your other relationships, and playing Russian roulette with “will we cross the line again?” temptation. Maybe at the end of that bad road the limerence will have burned itself out. But how scorched will the earth around you be?
It’s sad, but the responsible thing is to acknowledge limited contact as a necessary sacrifice.
That’s the second trap. Someone you care about needs emotional support. Is it your role to rescue him? You are, after all, married to someone else.
Scharnhorst says
Go for it
drlimerence says
Is that facetious? Seems like a pretty bad plan…
Scharnhorst says
“Is that facetious? Seems like a pretty bad plan…”
Learning from your mistakes is good. Learning from other people’s mistakes is even better. But, some things have to be learned the hard way.
Besides, just because nobody else has pulled it off doesn’t mean she can’t.
Jaideux says
Sarah,
I abruptly went NC a few months ago and at times struggle with guilt (I have heard that LO is “sad” due to my NC) but I am not capitulating to my twinges of pity and guilt. I am succeeding in my run for freedom.
Do you know why?
2. When I disclosed a few years ago LO feigned ignorance of my growing feelings. (I wear my heart on my sleeve so that’s idiotic).
3. I tried to back away many times in the past. He’s been told by mutual friends to let me go, but refused, and I tried to walk away on my own but he was’t having it, using guilt trips, pity, his family members needing me as I am “like family” so how could I walk away, on and on.
4. He often lamented how former female friends (and romantic partners) abandoned him and he clearly was distraught long after. This played on my compassion tendencies, which worked like a charm in keeping me in my limerent prison because I wanted to prove that I wasn’t like those other awful women. (Eye roll here).
5. The above being said, I DON’T OWE HIM ANY EXPLANATION. HE KNOWS, DEEP DOWN.
6. I have to have the strength and self respect to put my well being ahead of those who would take it from me for their own selfish reasons.
7. I have to have self control, self discipline and be brutally honest with myself. Any contact is unhealthy and dangerous.
8. I need to find my happiness in other, benign ways, and the more I try, the more I will succeed enjoying these happinesses.
9. I don’t want to hate the former LO, I wish him the best from afar, but he doesn’t own me anymore….unless I weaken and let him.
10. There are others in my life who truly love me, and did not manipulate me for their own selfish needs to get close to me and they are the ones who deserve my time, love and attention.
I have learned these things here at LWL, and am grateful for the support. To fail to heed the advice you have received on this blog is foolhardy…but we are all rooting for you, no matter what you do. Sometimes it takes us several missteps to finally get the lesson learned.
William says
@Sarah: I agree with Scharnhorst that you’re probably making a mistake, but I also agree that mistakes are one of the best ways to learn. Some things you have to learn for yourself, the hard way, and not breaking NC every time you think you have recovered is one of them.
To understand how your situation looks to us (the limerent observer), just imagine an alcoholic telling you that they haven’t had a drink in weeks, so they’re obviously no longer addicted to alcohol, which means they can treat themself to a drink, because really they owe it to themself after being sober for so long, and really it’s the only sensible thing to do, etc. You would probably recognize that this is the addiction talking and no good can come of the alcoholic’s plan to take a drink.
Of course, I am in the same situation, Sarah, so I understand the struggle. It’s very hard to resist temptation, especially when you’re stressed or depressed as I frequently am, but the first part of resisting temptation is recognizing that it IS the addiction talking, not your rational self.
Lee says
Consider that “everyone” leaves him for very good reasons.
drlimerence says
I also had the snarky thought of flipping this and saying: “I’ve known a lot of men who made me feel guilty about being away from them.”
Sarah says
Thanks everyone for your advice and support. Lots of things to reflect. I am glad I posted this here and get a reality check, it’s so easy to just get lost in my mind.
It also helps to read other stories to see that this thing I’m in is not unique, the stories sound similar and I’m not alone in this.
drlimerence says
Process it all, Sarah, and find your best path. There is some truth that sometimes we can’t grasp things properly until we experience them directly – i.e. make our own mistakes. But even if you do follow that path, it’s worth looking back on the experiences that we’ve shared and fitting them in to your new knowledge.
Rachel says
I’m glad everyone has helped you. I’ve had to learn the really hard way and I wouldn’t want you to be the same. I wish I could have the option of not seeing LO. I saw LO yesterday and we had a really happy chat. Nothing more, no emotions discussed. But I know this will effect me however, I’m well aware of this and I know it’s just the withdrawal of the slight dopamine got i got there. Stay strong and messaging on here really does help. I love this little support network.
Sarah says
Thx DrL and Rachel. Yeah, I will find my path, but it really does help to voice things out here on the page and read all the reactions. One day at the time. Today was a good day. Not many emotions surfaced.
Scharnhorst says
I remember being underway on the sub. Our Supply Officer was about 6’2″, built like a tank, and was the former US 7th Fleet Boxing Champion. He was worried that his wife was cheating on him and what he might have to do when we returned. A group of us were hanging out in the Wardroom.
Another officer made a rather flip comment. The Supply Officer turned, leaning on the table with both hands. His face was about a foot away from the other guy’s. The guy’s face went as white as a sheet. I couldn’t see the Supply Officer’s face but I remember what he said.
“We all make our choices.”
Lee says
I’m glad you re-thought the issue.
Sarah says
Thanks for the head slap, Scharnhorst, I guess I needed that.
Rachel says
Aw Sarah I know this feeling well. It’s pants! But let me be brutally honest with you. The reason why you are not over this is becuase you are still maintaining contact with him. This has been tried and tested by myself. Me and LO were push pull for ages. One week id withdraw and then he’d reel me back in. Then vise versa. I think we both know that we can’t be friends and that does suck as we had a great laugh together and made each other feel good. I get frustrated as a grown woman that I can’t simple be friends with someone without going bay shit crazy. You are addicted to this person not friends with him. When my mind shifted to this realisation it helped me view things a lot different. It’s like an alcoholic admitting they’re an alcoholic. My friendship with LO wasn’t authentic. Yes we had such a laugh and a flirt, however when I said back and thought about it. He is always about himself, not really a care about me. The whole thing isn’t real. I’m pretty low right now as I’m frustrated as some obsessive thoughts are still there lingering but when I think about to 3 months ago. I swear I thought about him every single second. I couldn’t eat. I’d cry constantly, I was never present with my family.
The harsh reality is that you need to withdraw and cut away from him. Maybe telling him this whole thing is to emotionally complicated so you can’t meet or be friends. It took months for me to come to this and it hurts that he doesn’t reach out or check in on me but I’d rather that than all the limerent feelings I had. Them lows are places I never want to go to again.
If you meet him you’ll be in back to the same position after the event you went on not so long ago and you’ll feel so awful. You need to come to terms with this person isn’t your friend he is your addiction.
lowendj says
“The harsh reality is that you need to withdraw and cut away from him. Maybe telling him this whole thing is to emotionally complicated so you can’t meet or be friends. It took months for me to come to this and it hurts that he doesn’t reach out or check in on me but I’d rather that than all the limerent feelings ”
So true! I’m closing in on 8 weeks of NC. The fact that I’m still counting means I’m not completely done.
Scharnhorst says
Is “You Can’t Always Get What You Want” on your set list?
Midlifer says
Hey all, thanks for this important discussion, which I hope is helpful to all of us. I’ve been seeing a therapist who specializes in treating OCD, to address the obsessive aspects of my limerence experience, and she suggested a gentler expression of this thought: ‘it’s OK to not get what you want’. This helps me because it’s more about equanimity and acceptance in the face of choosing to behave responsibly, rather than reinforcing a cycle of longing vs. self-denial.
That said, of course I love the Stones song just as it is, and it definitely belongs on the Limerence Music set list!
Scharnhorst says
“This helps me because it’s more about equanimity and acceptance in the face of choosing to behave responsibly, rather than reinforcing a cycle of longing vs. self-denial.”
The next line after “You can’t always get what you want,” is,
“But, if you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need.”
That’s pretty cool.
lowendj says
Done!
Rachel says
Keep it up 🙂 It’s bloody hard but it’s worth it I think.
Royce says
I have the chance to “withdraw and cut away” but I’m finding it really difficult to convince myself that I’m actually able and want to do this. LO left for a year long secondment this week and after months of real improvement, through a reduction in contact, her leaving has reignited the worst of my symptoms, although I’m confident this resurgence will only be temporary. We made loose plans to keep in touch (I know I failed here) and stupidly I’m already thinking about when she returns. The thought of her coming back fills me with both joy and dread but I know that I should be really focussing on NC now and then. I just can’t seem to accept that she is just an addiction and I don’t always view her through limerent eyes. I’ve known her for three years, one which was limerency free, and she is truly a nice and caring person. It would be very hard just to ditch her without any explanation at all. Is reduced contact a realistic, long term aim or is total NC the only true answer?
Thinker says
I had a chance to “withdraw and cut away” about one year ago, and I took it and NC lasted for 3 months (both married). I honestly did not want to go NC at that time, and felt I was not completely “ready” to take that step but opportunity presented itself. That stretch of NC was a painful time, and toward the end of the 3 months I felt I was going to burst if I didn’t see LO again or contact her. Fate (haha) would have it that LO showed up at my office to meet with others about returning to work, and we saw each other from a distance. I did not interact with her that day, but I felt the need to break NC via email that night to see what was happening. LO was in fact going to return to my office on a part-time basis, so any chance at further NC would need to be placed on hold. And I was relieved that she would be part of my life again.
We returned to a “closer than normal” friendship for a few months, as we had both really missed each other. But ultimately, she began to distance herself as her stint at my office was ending and became less consistent with her responses. I did not ask why or confront her about this. But I didn’t like that, so I became much more brief with my communication with her. And I started to feel the relationship turning into something different, where the prior rewards of the relationship were slipping away. I did know that she has male friends, and I felt my exclusivity disappear and I was not going to fight for it. Whether this was true or not did not matter; it gave me another opportunity to withdraw.
During the stretches of painful limerence, it was ESSENTIAL that I try to include my SO in more of my everyday life and seek out social times with her. As much as I thought I could manage an intimacy with LO and SO, in hindsight I feel it was a zero-sum game where becoming closer with one would move me farther from the other.
Of course I’m tearing up as I write this. Fortunately, it is only from reflecting on the past, and not from a desire to have LO return to my life. One month NC today. I know that I will see or hear from LO again, but I truly do not want to hear from her right now. There is a difference in how I am feeling and handling the NC of one year ago vs. the NC today.
Rachel says
My current state of my LE is that I’m certain it’s nearly over. I have the odd days where I’m bad and delusional and miss my LO but most days I’m pretty clear headed. I’m near the end as I can I can FINALLY see that limerence is all about us and not LO.
When I was really determined to get over this I really started thinking about LO. I mean obviously I was always thinking about LO but really think about their character and how he has been with me. It turns out that I don’t like LO as much as I thought I did. There are certain traits about him which really appall me to be quite frank. Whilst I had the limerence glasses on I would just ignore this traits like they didn’t exist and only concentrate on the good stuff. When I started to think more and more things popped up about LO which I didn’t like. Before I used to see LO’s hot and coldness as mysterious. Where as now I really see it for it is. He is pretty rude as a person and extremely childish. I can see the the illusion for what it is now. I do not miss LO I miss MY LO avatar which I create in people. As messed up as that sounds it’s actually pretty eye opening. The songs I would listen to about LO, I was unconscioussly hypnotising myself thinking of my LO not LO as a person. Anyone who is stuck I urge you to think into depth about the reality of this LO. All my LO’s have me hooked becuase of their hot and cold behaviour causing the intermittent reinforcement. Maybe not everyone falls for the d**ks like I do but these people are just people with real flaws. I can finally see the difference in my two minds. I can feel the illusion trying to take a grip of me and wow that allure is strong but so so fake. Your family, pets and hobbies are real these are the things that if focused on will eventually pull you out of the spell and into reality. And guess what, I prefer real life to limerence!
Lee says
“When I was really determined to get over this I really started thinking about LO.”
Extinction bursts are hell.
Sarah says
Like the thoughts, Rachel!
Had pretty good two days myself, where I really felt no urge to text LO at all and did not feel bad for cancelling on seeing LO. I don’t wonder what he’s doing (same old boring stuff most likely anyway) and I feel like I am on good track of leaving this behind and in the past. I don’t want to have an intimate close conversation with LO anymore. I start to realize that I am just as good without him, I don’t need him to be part of my life. Life moves on.
Scharnhorst says
“My current state of my LE is that I’m certain it’s nearly over.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdJ1uu3YfxU
Dirty little secret: You may no longer be at risk but it may not be over. It may never be over.
LEs can either be “serial” or “parallel” events in your life. LO #2 was the central figure in my life from 1983-1987. We were both available and we had a relationship. She was a serial event in my life. In the timeline of my life, I can’t erase her. She will always be there.
LO #4 was a parallel event. I have an SO. She’s the central figure in my life. LO #4 was an adjunct. As DrL talked about in one of his blogs on infidelity, an parallel LE takes place outside the serial relationship. It’s been over 3 years since we said goodbye. I still think of her but she doesn’t claim a permanent place in my story. She’s a footnote.
Rachel says
Scarny. Thanks for your post. I know I am not over this yet. LO still occupies my mind more than normal. However, all my previous LO’s I have managed to reach absolute indifference. They do not standout to me on my social media and have absolutely zero emotional hold on me.
I think what’s helped me in the latest LE is, controversially, being in LO’s presence a lot! Once I realised i was unable to go NC I was devastated and genuinely thought this was going to be a never-ending nightmare, to the point I was thinking of selling my dream home and moving. However, I decided to use this contact with LO in a positive way to fuel my adversion conditioning. Once I started picking at faults I slowly but surely each time I noticed a bit more I didn’t like about LO and I would really home in on this? I don’t see why this LO is any different and that indifference can’t be reached.
If your referring to limerence in general. This is a pill that I’m finding hard to swallow. The realisation that this is part of me and may come back is pretty scary. However with the awareness and skills I’ve learned from this site Im praying a full blown LE will never happen again…
Please god!
Vincent says
@Royce – it has to be NC I’m afraid. You’ve been presented with an opportunity and you just have to take it. You can see the effect she has on you, even her leaving has reignited everything. I’m sure she’s great and all but she’s not worth your health and wellbeing. That has to be your focus and NC if the best gift you can give to yourself, even though its so hard – its like medicine, tastes horrible but makes you better.
I was presented with the NC opportunity last year and took it. Unfortunately our parting was acrimonious and I had a little wobble a few months into NC as a result, but now 9+ months in, I’m in a such a better place. BUT, it takes so long, and I’m not out of the woods yet. This week I’m in a different city, thousands of miles from home, and yet I see someone on the street that looks like her and I’m back to thinking about her. I’ve just spent 10 mins talking about her with a contact over here who asked me how she was getting on. Doh!
Its a constant struggle and in these last few months my recovery has plateaued a bit, as I’m still thinking about her every day. Its down from every two minutes though!! I can’t image where I’d be if she was still in my life. Probably getting divorced…
Midlifer says
Yes! Right on, Scharnhorst!
Rachel says
http://ivkdlaw.com/the-firm/our-articles/marriage-and-mediation-to-stay-married/monkey-mind-and-infidelity/
This is such a good article for anyone who is in limerence and has an SO. Please read.
Sarah says
Thanks for sharing, Rachel. Very good article.
Royce says
Thanks Vincent, I think I knew the answer before I asked but just needed someone to tell me. Will take the opportunity and focus on NC. Your experience tells me I’m in for a bumpy ride and I’ll have to work out how I deal with it when she gets in touch ( I know she will). That’s the bit I see being most difficult.
Kevin says
Hi Royce
Hope your well. I resonate with you as we started and stumbled on Limerence together. In Jan started NC. Lol
Didn’t last for me as we ended up working at same company again in new country so been rough. May – July were tough. We were spending a lot of time emotionally as new country. She has since made her own friends now and is it dependent on me. She wasn’t before but all her nice ‘have you u got home ok’ we’re ofcourse sweetest thing ever.
On top of this I learn she has another ‘go to’ person more up the ranks than me in terms of closeness.
So beeen tough. But for 51 days today I have not initiated any contact. And if she contacts me I limit to 6-7 messages instead of a wirlwind of messages.
She too has slowed down too.
Makes it hard when your on limited contact but I need to enjoy my new country and job and get out of the Limerence fog and see her as a normal employee. Like other people in the office
Royce says
Sounds like you’re on the right track Kevin and you should be proud of your 51 days. Keep going one day at a time and I’m sure things will get better and continue to cool down – hopefully everything will just fizzle out in the end. If I remember rightly your SO was to join you abroad. Are you managing to focus more on her?
After initially being upset about my LO’s departure I’m starting to see the positive side now and feel in the right frame of mind to move forward. It’s actually quite nice not having to think about how I interact with her at work and all that saved energy can be put to much better use.
Kevin says
Hey Royce
Thanks yes been 52 days now…. had a meltdown today though internally as at lunch jealousy crept in when I saw her talking, laughing, and casual arm touches with another colleague…..that was me number of years ago getting the glimmer…and I could see this other guy getting the glimmer… but now thanks to DrL im smarter and know that its the glimmer.
So although I have made good progress i felt jealous but also was aware that He could end up in limerence as this is how i started out.
All this could just be in my head ofcourse but im saying what I felt at the time. So becasue i felt like that my hijacked mind wanted a dopamine hit from her so asked her for tea so we caught up on work stuff and she even touched my hand at one point – its her way of making a point……so I felt better. But still i dont want to be controlled like this by her. The fact that I am thinking like that is progress and thanks to you all… so I need to be stronger and not have meltdowns like this.
Yes SO is here too – well remembered. Bit more time together yes. My biggest issue over the last 52 days has been the guilt of not being proactive with LO but just not caring and being reactive to anything she asks. I know its best for me – but need to manage the guilt. Even other people that know we have been friends for years are asking her why she hasnt come for dinner to my place – because to the outsider thats what friends do when they are in a new country together right?
They dont know that I have been avoiding it because of limerernce – but that is the truth
My Limerent Brain Is An Idiot says
I think it’s good to have greater distance from the outside, as well. When other people are asking, “Have you had your LO to dinner yet?” it indicates that they’re curious about your relationship with that person. They’re trying to confirm or falsify their own suspicions about the two of you. You can guarantee that if there’s touching, little solo lunches, one-on-one meetings, that people are speculating.
So if you haven’t had LO over for dinner, it puts the kibosh on speculation. It’s a good thing!
Royce says
@Kevin, jealousy and guilt are pretty normal feelings during limerence so don’t beat yourself up about it. Don’t dwell on what has happened and focus on moving on from LO, keeping as much distance as you can from her. If you know she’s not interested in what you wanted, (think you wanted), what’s the point of investing time in her anyway? One of my most successful coping strategies has been keeping myself so busy that I don’t have time to think about LO. Get busy with something that has positive outcomes and if possible try and include your SO. Enjoy some guilt free time with her!
Kevin says
“It’s actually quite nice not having to think about how I interact with her at work and all that saved energy can be put to much better use.”
Yes i can imagine – be grateful she left – when my LO is out of office I love it and im a different person in the office. When she is there, I almost freeze and become introverted and quiet.
I hate that i have to be like that and not myself
Derek A W says
Hey there guys, Its seems I may have it. EECCKK !!!! Eharmony has come into my life as a last resort after one other recent site failure. Yes it was free !!
NOW. Never heard of Limerence before, until now. Met this lovely lady, 10 yrs my junior no worries there and we just clicked and it became powerful and dynamic on our first date. Of course NO intimacy at this stage. However, strong desires from me started to generate after 16 hrs together ( first date) and futures were strongly discussed on further dates to have and adventures to have. Then that late afternoon discussion we had just before I left her place. I asked her how she felt so far after our dynamic date. Now this date included, paddle boarding for 2 hrs, breakfast together at a quirky little café with just us , as patrons !! WOW couldn’t ask for anything better really. We swam locally on the beach, we walked around headlands and drove around together and we shared a few ales in a boutique brewery, BAm BAm BAm just connecting all over the place. She included me with her friends for a late afternoon BBQ etc etc. I was truly in NIRVANA how well it felt. Her simply reply was…. ” yes it feels a like Limerence” excuse my ignorance here. I thought we were talking about the “spark” we had all day and I just took that in , with intentions to look up meaning later, to which, I didn’t due to being too tired after that great first date day.
Now of course, 2 days later. I look up the real meaning Of Limerence and my heart has fallen and now I want so much to talk about it with her to see if this is what she means. Or is it ? a “speech O” on her behalf. Now she is a very determined woman, smart, attractive, industrious, sexy as, I do believe very honest about feelings and Yes what we have created so far and of course texts on phone and phone calls at night after we both finish work. We have discussed so much in short time and as only new people do when trying to see if you are compatible. This was electric and left me so MUCH ON A HIGH that day. It generated much more feelings for her in ‘we are right for each other”.
I am obviously NOT the LO BUT I AM the feeler of it. I read the 4 ways to get away from it and battle it. What further convincing do I need in order to know that she maybe the LO and its only a brief time for both of us Huh huh.
Such a bright new day in my life with a fantastic woman and Now I feel as though it maybe short lived due to this horrible word that’s now stuck in my vocabulary and my fallen heart. AM I BEING silly and not giving this a go at this stage or is the “L Word” going to plague me… Any such advice from anyone who reads this possible. Please enlighten me.. At the tender age of 61. This is thoroughly new to me !!! cheers all.
Bert says
Sorry, meant to post as a reply to you – see below.
Scharnhorst says
Pull the limerence string with her. Do some homework but not too much homework. Tell her you looked up limerence and read Tenov’s criteria. Ask her why she brought it up and listen carefully to what she says. Tell her it sounds like she’s familiar with the term and ask how she learned about it. That could tell you volumes about her. You want her to do the talking.
Just out of curiosity, what does she do for a living?
Promising starts don’t always lead to promising futures. After I broke up with LO #2, I met a woman at a community event. On our first date, we closed the restaurant. On our next date, she took me into a sex shop and I felt like I was being assessed by her. The relationship went nowhere and didn’t end too well. The worst thing about it was a few months after we stopped seeing each other, I was assigned a project with her father, who I’d met several times dating her. That was awkward.
Scharnhorst says
Also, you probably want to have this conversation in person across a table so you can read her eyes, face, and body language. You don’t want her next to you for this one.
drlimerence says
Welcome, Derek. I’d echo what Scharnhorst and Bert have said – don’t worry too much about the possible problems that limerence could cause down the road, just enjoy the connection in the here and now. I have a relatively positive view of limerence (see this post for example), and agree with Bert that it only becomes a problem if it is not reciprocated or there is a barrier that prevents you from getting together – which causes it to turn inwards and become an obsessive cycle. It sounds from your story as though that isn’t the case for you, so be bold!
I’d also agree with Scharnhorst that a little gentle probing on her view about limerence (and maybe history with it) would be a good idea. It sounds like a very intense and emotionally charged date – not a problem but also not a situation that is compatible with sober reflection. It might be wise to decelerate a little, and get to know her thoughts on romantic connection.
Good luck!
Bert says
If you both feel the “glimmer” or spark and you both are available, then just enjoy it. Lucky you! It sounds like there’s the potential for a nice relationship. After a while the intensity usually mellows. It’s when the feelings are one-sided and become overwhelming, or when one or both people are not really available, then limerence can be a challenge. It’s not always bad. Read this post, it should give you more info: https://livingwithlimerence.com/2019/03/17/the-definition-of-limerence/.