Over at the New York Times, Roxane Gay writes an advice column about work and life called “Work Friend”. The title of a recent edition caught my eye: The thrill of the office crush.
The scenario is pretty familiar: someone has developed a crush on a co-worker and needs advice on how to handle it. There are a few important details, though…
I have a crush on a co-worker. But this isn’t a normal crush. I’ve had crushes before and I usually either confess or just ignore them till they go away. Not this one, though. I really, really like this person, far more than anything I’ve felt in a long time. I’m aware when he’s in the room and I notice all sorts of details about him.
The letter writer ends with the appeal:
Do you have any advice on navigating a painfully intense crush on a colleague?
“Work Friend” does have advice, and it is perfectly sound, sensible advice. In summary it is: be wary of power imbalances, figure out why this crush has hit so hard, but go for it if you are both free to act.
A crush is a healthy thing, so try not to overthink this. At the end of the day, if you really, really like this person, why not shoot your shot? The worst he can say is that he’s not interested, which will hurt, yes, but you will handle it, and have new information about how to proceed. And if he says yes to a date, well, like I said, everything is possible. Good luck, and be good to your heart.
Excellent advice, from a non-limerent.
I’m not being snarky, it really is good advice for someone who doesn’t suffer from debilitating infatuation, but I also think it helps illustrate some important points about how misunderstood limerents are by those who have never gone through such life-shaking infatuation themselves.
When Tennov first defined limerence and tried to promote it in her professional community she encountered a lot of scepticism, to the point of hostility. As she put it:
It is so unlike any other condition that those who have not experienced it have no experiential base from which to imagine it. Therefore, they tend not to believe in its existence except as romanticism or as pathology
Dorothy Tennov
A couple of telling details from the reply that Roxane Gay gives is the “you are not giving me a lot to go on here,” and “I hope you’re allowing yourself the enjoyment of the best parts of having a crush, while feeling so overwhelmed.” That suggests to me that she did not hear the limerence klaxon sounding, and sees crushes mainly as life-enriching thrills.
Now, granted, I may be somewhat over-sensitized to seeing limerence everywhere, but I think this is a fairly straightforward case. It’s implicit in the letter writer’s words that she is shocked and disorientated by how powerful this infatuation has become. The thrills of the office crush are actually unsettling – wild, euphoric highs when they are around, likely followed by a queasy comedown. It’s more like a frightening addiction than a delightful adventure.
Given this more pessimistic reading of the letter writer’s situation, what would I add in terms of advice? Well, there are over 320 posts on limerence in the archive, but to help filter it a bit, here are some of the key suggestions I’d offer for anyone in the situation of a crushing office crush.
1. You are experiencing an altered state of mind
Limerence is an altered mental state. During the intense infatuation, your mood, motivation, arousal, cognition, perception, and even beliefs, can all be different from before the romantic obsession set in. From a neuroscience perspective, limerence is well described as addiction to another person. Consequently, you will wrestle with the addict’s problem of irrationally craving something that is not necessarily good for you.
2. Be wary of being guided by your feelings
If limerence is best understood as a behavioural addiction, it follows that your judgement and decision-making will be compromised when you are in the grip of it.
That limerent part of your brain that wants reciprocation more than anything else will be pushing you to seek contact, seek reward, seek intimacy. This drive distorts your usual intuition and instincts, as the urgency of the desire is so acute that rationalisation kicks in to smother any doubts.
While intuition is a voice you should listen to in cases of safety and self-development, it will be a heavily biased guide during limerence. Seeking the perspective of a trusted friend before you make decisions about your crush is a good idea.
3. Daydreaming will reinforce the limerence
Most limerents love to daydream. It’s a simple, indirect way to get some of the rewarding glow of infatuation, and seems to be risk-free. Unfortunately, like many of the habits of limerence, there is a hidden cost.
Rumination is a powerful mechanism for reinforcing limerence, by linking thoughts about your limerent object to emotional reward. This can be an effective tactic for mood repair, and many limerents use it to counter the negative feelings of limerence withdrawal, but it also consolidates the addiction. In the worst cases, it can progress to the stage of intrusive thoughts.
Daydreaming is not itself bad, but when you are using it as a way of feeling closer to someone you have a crush on, it gives temporary relief at the cost of longer term obsession.
4. It’s happening in your head
It’s a simple enough mistake to make: they make you feel amazing, so they must be amazing. We tend to idealise and idolise our limerent objects. Even their bad habits or questionable behaviour somehow seem forgiveable – possibly even titillating.
Our rational mind – that part of us not drunk on infatuation – knows this is a delusion. The emotional storm of limerence is happening in your head. You create the euphoria, it isn’t gifted to you by them. They are not magical.
5. Think carefully about the risks of disclosure
Roxane Gay was clear about the risks of power imbalances at work, but there are many other dangers associated with disclosing your feelings to a co-worker. Given that your judgement is impaired during limerence, the chance of deftly directing the delicate dance of disclosure is decreased.
6. Act decisively and with purpose
Finally, I ultimately do agree with the advice to act if you are both romantically available. The key point, though, is to decide after spending some time properly understanding what is happening to you. If you jump in during the grip of infatuation without getting a good conceptual grasp of what limerence is and how it alters your thinking, there is a significant risk that even a promising relationship could get derailed by the mania.
If, in contrast, you process the experience of limerence, realise how the craving distorts judgement, and how it influences your behaviour, then you stand a much better chance of making a purposeful and wise decision – regardless of whether it’s to jump into a new romantic adventure, or pull back and work on personal recovery.
This cautious view may make it seem as though crushes are to be feared and avoided. I don’t mean to be anti-thrill, but for limerents a crush – like flirting – isn’t quite the harmless fun that it is for others. It’s a kind of intoxicating thrill that should be indulged in mindfully.
Forewarned is forearmed.
Oh my. Such a good article. Thank you for writing it, Dr. L!
For the life of me, I don’t understand why Tennov’s work attracted hostility. I assume she was at least trying to be objective and scientific in her work. I suppose limerence is a hard subject to study scientifically, though, since so many factors can’t be measured and compared, but only reported by informants. Maybe some people thought Tennov’s research methods were sloppy? Also, I think the idea of “an altered state of mind” is very frightening to many people.
I was thinking today that the closest a non-limerent could ever come to limerence is possibly cinema. I.e. if a non-limerent developed a passion for movies, and watched lots and lots of movies, and completely immersed themselves in the parallel world of movies and stopped engaging in real life, that all-consuming and emotionally-charged passion might feel a little bit like limerence. 🤔
I’ve been haunting some other websites dealing with limerence. On my travels, I’ve encountered two pithy descriptions I like. One is “limerence is trauma bond at first sight” and the other is “limerence is a crush on steroids”. (Both coined by Reddit users I believe).
I don’t agree that “limerence is trauma bond at first sight”, although the description may resonate with people in certain communities. I don’t believe trauma caused my limerence. I think limerence itself is the trauma. I.e. limerence entails/encompasses a unique form of suffering specific only to limerence. 😉
I love the description, though, that “limerence is a crush on steroids”. It covers the obsession, the highs and the lows, the nascent sexual attraction.
Happily, I’ve never had an office crush, or an “office crush on steroids”, as we should call it. I really pity the people who do find themselves in this situation, though, because getting away from one’s crush even in a physical sense might be a wee bit challenging at times!
I’ve been reading some old alumni magazines from my old high school. I used to feel quite a lot of negative emotion toward my fellow graduates. I don’t know why. I think maybe I felt envious of the ease with which other people could pursue relationships and careers because, unlike me, they weren’t grappling with limerence. Now, however, I’m out of limerence, I can feel love again for my former classmates, etc. Also, I know the mags only publish success stories. I’m sure most of my peers are living quite ordinary lives, and I don’t need to feel too down about “wasted time”. 😉
I still struggle to forgive one of my two high school LOs. Oddly, the one I struggle to forgive is the one who was “nice”! The one who was “pure bad boy” was easy to forgive. The one who tried really hard to be a good person – he’s the one I struggle to forgive. I think I wanted the “magic” of our connection to be real. Oddly enough, I felt euphoria around both individuals, and maybe even more euphoria around “pure bad boy”. Limerence doesn’t make much sense. 🙄
I feel very acutely aware of the difference between the office crush and limerence. Up until limerence hit me, I have had a handful of office crushes and yes, they can be fun. The daydreaming of a crush is fun (the key difference is “fun” and not “euphoric”), and the interactions are welcome, but at no time does the crush ever give me feelings of distress when reciprocation does not occur. It is like my subconscious knew that the attraction was limited so just enjoy the fun parts of attraction and move on.
It was not until my LE hit did I experience this amazing euphoric sensation that went well beyond fun and then the crushing lows. Altered state of mind and addiction is the perfect description due to the euphoric/depressive nature of limerence and the almost uncontrollable desire to seek out the euphoric hit despite the low that follows.
If this person in the article describes the crush as something she never experienced before, and the mere fact she is writing a newspaper columnist about it, I would say it sounds LE like and she is experiencing some level of distress and confusion. Hopefully it’s as simple as her and her LO are barrier free and she can make her move, but unless LO reciprocates equally or unequivocally denies her, she may find herself trapped in that place that is all consuming, disorienting, confusing, and most of all distressing.
” but unless LO reciprocates equally or unequivocally denies her, she may find herself trapped in that place that is all consuming, disorienting, confusing, and most of all distressing.”
No. It’s all on the limerent, who needs to see that anything less than the LO going on the date is a denial.
We have to bring our realistic selves into the situation as much as is possible. If someone we really liked as us out, would we say “maybe”? Would we say yes but keep rescheduling?
Though a clear-cut answer one way or the other is ideal, the limerent doesn’t need one to be able to see what the LO’s answer means.
Yes, it’s on the limerent to ultimately determine the meaning of a no but to a limerent a no is not always the end of the limerence. Not saying it’s right but this site is littered with stories where LOs give a no and then proceed to do things to attract the attention of the limerent. There are blog posts dedicated to it.
“Not saying it’s right but this site is littered with stories where LOs give a no and then proceed to do things to attract the attention of the limerent. There are blog posts dedicated to it.”
But someone saying no and still flirting or being a “friend” … is a no.
Limerents make everything exponentially more complicated than it are. I know, I’m in the club. 🙂 If the LO isn’t asking the limerent out or making a pass … or accepting the limerent’s date offer or pass … it’s a no. It really is that simple.
A confusing answer is a no. Nobody sits on an offer they want for too long.
Amen to that Speedwagon. I am guilty of this in an extreme way. Have always twisted LOs obvious rejections into what ifs? And then I am back in my comfort zone. Of course it isn’t right but to quote the crappy childhood fairy, “limerence is like pouring concrete on the engine of your life.” It’s exactly what I do.
“If the LO isn’t asking the limerent out or making a pass … or accepting the limerent’s date offer or pass … it’s a no. It really is that simple.
A confusing answer is a no. Nobody sits on an offer they want for too long.”
Who are you and what have you done with the real Marcia?! 🙂
LE,
“Who are you and what have you done with the real Marcia?! 🙂”
She’s getting old, LE. She’s getting old, and her patience with BS and flim flam is non-existent.
Just this week I was invited by a co-worker to an event that was supposed to take place yesterday (as a friend). Yesterday came and went … and he never mentioned it. So I’ve moved him into “work friend” category. I can still get along with him but I don’t want to invest any more in someone who can’t follow through on a simple invitation, if only to tell me he wasn’t going.
This goes back to limerence because this is the kind of crap my LO pulled. And, still, I didn’t read the signs. It’s all common sense. It’s not suddenly going to get better with this person. People who want to show up … show up. It really is that simple.
“She’s getting old, LE. She’s getting old, and her patience with BS and flim flam is non-existent.”
I’d spin it as you’re becoming wiser, more discerning, solidifying your sense of self-worth and asserting your self-respect.
Those are all good things. Really good things.
There are men out there who appreciate those.
You’ve learned not to waste time on ones who don’t. That’s huge!
When I met my wife, I didn’t know what a good relationship was. But, after 5 years with LO #2, I had a real good idea of what a good relationship wasn’t.
No kidding, Speedwagon! One time my LO told me that he intended to be distant from me so that he could focus on his family and then he ramped up our communication to new highs.
“But someone saying no and still flirting or being a “friend” … is a no.
Limerents make everything exponentially more complicated than it are. I know, I’m in the club. 🙂 If the LO isn’t asking the limerent out or making a pass … or accepting the limerent’s date offer or pass … it’s a no. It really is that simple.
A confusing answer is a no. Nobody sits on an offer they want for too long.”
@Marcia.
I completely agree with you that as far as limerence is concerned, everything that falls short of “yes, definitely” should be treated as a “no”. “Maybe” does indeed mean “no” – if the limerent doesn’t want to go crazy! Anything that isn’t a yes is a hard no.
Non-limerents can probably handle all sorts of shades of grey, and situationships, but limerents need things spelled out in black and white because of the pain involved in the obsession in the first place.
Someone continuing to flirt after saying no to romance is no friend at all. Someone acting super-nice after saying no to romance is somebody who feels embarrassed about the whole situation, and isn’t sure about how to act around the limerent anymore…
I’ve had people act distinctly nicer to me after rejecting me romantically. I found such behaviour both patronising and infuriating. However, the heightened “niceness” was just a reflection of that person’s embarrassment. 😉
LE,
“Those are all good things. Really good things. … There are men out there who appreciate those. … You’ve learned not to waste time on ones who don’t. That’s huge!”
That’s sweet of you to say.
“When I met my wife, I didn’t know what a good relationship was. But, after 5 years with LO #2, I had a real good idea of what a good relationship wasn’t.”
Exactly. Sometimes you don’t know what you want, but you sure as heck know what you DON’T want. 🙂
Hi Sammy,
“Non-limerents can probably handle all sorts of shades of grey, and situationships, but limerents need things spelled out in black and white because of the pain involved in the obsession in the first place.”
They may need things spelled out in black and white but that doesn’t mean they’ll get them spelled out that explicitly. A good number of people are not good at just coming out and saying no. So expecting them to is throwing the responsiblity on the LO. As we know, LOs are notoriously slippery and hard read. Some won’t feel any responsbility for the limerent or for being clear.
That’s why, as you wrote: “Anything that isn’t a yes is a hard no.”
The limerent has to take some responsiblity. It can’t just be, “My LO led me on or wasnt clear.” That statement right there is telling the limerent everything her or she needs to know. “Not clear” means RUN! 🙂
“Someone acting super-nice after saying no to romance is somebody who feels embarrassed about the whole situation, and isn’t sure about how to act around the limerent anymore…”
Or they want to continue to have the attention of the limerent.
“The daydreaming of a crush is fun (the key difference is “fun” and not “euphoric”), and the interactions are welcome, but at no time does the crush ever give me feelings of distress when reciprocation does not occur. It is like my subconscious knew that the attraction was limited so just enjoy the fun parts of attraction and move on.”
@Speedragon.
Thank you for pointing out this distinction, as I’ve always struggled to understand it myself. I mean, I’ve struggled to understand why some people (many people?) view romantic intrigue as “fun”, something to giggle about with friends, etc. Am I just a humourless old fuddy-duddy?
Why is a crush “fun”, do you think, while an LE isn’t so much “fun”, euphoria notwithstanding? Is it just the emotional intensity that the limerent brings to the table? Is the limerent inadvertently taking the whole situation too seriously?
“It was not until my LE hit did I experience this amazing euphoric sensation that went well beyond fun and then the crushing lows. Altered state of mind and addiction is the perfect description due to the euphoric/depressive nature of limerence and the almost uncontrollable desire to seek out the euphoric hit despite the low that follows.”
This paragraph is beautifully-written, and a very apt description of limerence IMHO. You’ve really hit the nail on the head. 😛
“Why is a crush “fun”, do you think, while an LE isn’t so much “fun”, euphoria notwithstanding?”
Because there is something in our LOs that trigger something in each of us that is so deeply rooted in our psyche, or speaks to some fundamental need so deeply, that it isn’t “fun”; it is life or death.
“Because there is something in our LOs that trigger something in each of us that is so deeply rooted in our psyche, or speaks to some fundamental need so deeply, that it isn’t “fun”; it is life or death.”
@Emily.
Yes. Good answer. I hear what you’re saying. I have lived through limerence myself, so I’m not trying to trivialise anyone’s pain. I’m familiar firsthand with the suffering involved, and the unpleasantly inescapable nature of intrusive thoughts…
On the other hand, I have also recovered from limerence, so there’s no intensity regarding LO anymore. I feel indifferent toward him.
Also, looking back, I realise that the “life or death” feeling was a temporary illusion conjured up by my limerent brain. Objectively, I can live just fine without my LO. I rarely think of him. However, for a time, my brain wanted me to believe that securing this person’s love was the only goal in life worth having. I see that belief now as a lie.
A part of me thinks limerence is just Nature’s way of tricking people into reproduction, before anyone has time to sit down and think about the natural consequences of reproduction, e.g. the work involved, money, housing, schooling, whether or not one is actually going to be a good parent. Maybe if people thought about parenthood before becoming parents, fewer people would volunteer for the job, because parenthood is such a big responsibility?
My LO was of the same sex, though. So I don’t know what hold he had over my psyche, unless he just represented “self” on some level. Was I supposed to get in touch with a more authentic version of me? If limerence for me was about nothing more than some New Age-type search for authenticity, that seems terribly self-indulgent. Not that it doesn’t work, mind you. But I’m sure many people who don’t have time to “go find themselves” would be unimpressed.
The fundamental need in my life at the time might have been lack of human companionship. However, my LO didn’t do anything to ease my loneliness. He wasn’t much of a companion, all things considered. He was a lacklustre solution to my problem. Actually, he was completely useless. But the fantasy was amazing.
I think Tennov talked about people not really remembering the anguish of limerence once they get over it, and it’s all in the past. And maybe I’m moving into that phase of conveniently forgetting the stuff I’ve lived through. The “rawness” of the pain is gone. It (the whole ordeal of limerence) feels like it happened to somebody else. 🤔
2nd paragraph beautifully-written Speedwagon. Pretty much everything in that nutshell, I felt for LO and have for the last 10 months. Never planned it or expected it to hit like it did. But here we are.
“I feel very acutely aware of the difference between the office crush and limerence”
My current LE started out as a simple office crush. For the first 5 years we worked together, I always had a little thing for her – I was always happy to see her around, thought she was really attractive, enjoyed talking with her, engaged in some occasionally daydreaming/fantasizing, and always kinda wondered if she liked me back, but that was the extent of it – no intrusive thoughts, no emotional highs and lows, no anxiety, no compulsive behaviors, no conscious effort to spend extra time around her or ascertain her feelings or anything like that. I actually managed to have a full-on LE with another woman during that time, so obviously she wasn’t occupying too much of my headspace.
Two watershed moments transformed everything for me. The first was when I asked her how she was doing one day and she started crying and ended up telling me all about her divorce – that activated a full-blown rescue fantasy and simultaneously let me know that she was available – never mind that I still had an SO and should not have considered myself remotely available. (Looking back, I suspect that moment may have been when her feelings for me changed into something more that a simple crush – she definitely started making more efforts to get closer to me after that.)
The second and most important moment was when she started texting me – that happened a few weeks after that emotional talk. It started as just innocent things maybe once or twice a day she’d send me a video she saw online and thought I’d like. Nothing obviously inappropriate. But it let me know she was thinking about me when we were apart, and it gave me a little dopamine hit every time I got a text from her, and made me want more. And within just a couple of weeks of the first text, we were texting non stop and I was in full-blown limerence – it’s shocking looking back to think about how quickly things took off and how crazy they got, like this thing had been smoldering for five years and then the emotional disclosure followed by the texting was like pouring gasoline all over the coals and it just turned into a raging fire.
Texting also played a major role in my prior LE, and a moderate role in the one before that. It’s just such a perfect medium for transforming a minor crush into a raging LE – it gives you the constant access to the other person, the dopamine hit each time your phone buzzes and it’s them, the anxiety when you text and don’t get a reply right away, the ambiguity of texts and emojis that can be interpreted all sorts of ways and reread over and over, and (depending on your circumstances) the added illicit thrill of hiding it all from your SO. It’s just such a dangerous and intoxicating mix.
Goal for the future – better boundaries and no personal texting with potential LOs. I’m certain that I’ll have more little crushes in the future, but my goal is to never have another pathological LE, and avoiding texting with potential LOs seems like one of the most important boundaries for me to maintain.
Texting is the devils playground for the limerent mind. A simple text one Sunday morning from my LO about something seemingly innocent is what sent me into my raging LE. She thought nothing of it and I thought everything of it.
I often wish she never sent that text.
Speedwagon, you make me chuckle every time you call texting something like “the devil’s playground.” You are right, and it’s funny how you word it.
“The key point, though, is to decide after spending some time properly understanding what is happening to you.”
Disagree with this. Months–heck, years!– could pass before this happens, and a limerent could use this as an excuse to stay in limbo so as not to have to deal with the potential disappointment of an actual answer from the LO. In the meantime, uncertainty is putting the limerent deeper and deeper into rumination, into the “what ifs,” into the fantasy of it all, and the rest of life is passing them by.
Best to rip the band-aid off as soon as possible and ask the person out (depending on the work situation).
Agree with this.
A clumsy disclosure resulting in a dose of rejection is much healthier than ongoing rumination and uncertainty. As you say, depending on the characters involved, and the work situation. And so long as you can dial down the visible intensity.
I did this to a co-worker LO many moons ago. In the pub after a couple of courage-building-drinks. I was rejected initially but we married 4 years later.
(First of all, English is not my language, I apologize for mistakes and clumsy wording…)
Having experienced several LEs, I‘m now in a state where I can watch myself being limerent and recognize all the pitfalls and illusions as if I‘d be two persons, one limerent and one at the sidelines.
I‘m limerent for a colleague („office crush“), but I know him for at least 10 years and we are best friends. That means I‘ve had years and years of seeing him in a „normal light“,I know his good and bad sides, I always had a fond affection for him and there are also some traits that I’ve found annoying at times.
Now he‘ll leave to work elsewhere which triggered in both of us a desire to spend time together, we are both very sad not to work together any more, and suddenly, bam, there‘s the limerence.
It‘s rather funny, because I saw it coming and I know that it‘s all a making of my limerence-prone mind, but still I can‘t stop it. I‘ve got the sleepless nights, the physical desire, the jealousy (his wife is a friend too, perfectly amiable woman, suddenly I find her annoying),all the works.
The thing is, I can now really say that point 1 and 4 of this article are true- it‘s an altered mind. I see him as if with love/tinted glasses, all his faults are still there but fade into background, but the person at the sidelines knows that he‘s still the same as all the years before.
It‘s all in my mind and in my need to see him in this altered light. It has nothing to do with him as a person and everything to do with my needs as a limerent-prone person. It‘s all created by me.
Of course he‘s lovable and I do love and appreciate him very much. Only my need to be limerent sits on top of that and pulls the whole thing into a story that could get threatening for our friendship.
I see it clearly and still have to admonish myself like a child not to do or say anything stupid. The craving for disclosure is overwhelming at times (also because I feel that he‘s limerent in some way,too, but nothing as strong or destructive as my limerences), but I know it would be completely wrong and would only taint or even terminate our friendship.
It surely feels like a kind of illness. I‘m very glad that I can see everything so clearly thanks to Dr.L and this website and my own observations, but I‘m still astonished how my limerence is not affected by this , it just runs it’s course and won‘t be stopped by all this knowledge…
Sorry Allie 1 and Marcia, I wanted to reply to the article, not your comments, now I cannot change it…
Lol, that’s funny, Allie.
I’m not saying they should delay until they fully understand limerence and all its nuances. But if they make a move while still in the “this connection feels cosmic, so must be True Love – perhaps all my old beliefs are wrong” stage of limerence then the outcomes are likely to be… unstable.
Whether LO says yes or no, the subsequent behaviour of a naive limerent might well jeopardise the next stage of their relationship – especially if it’s in a work context.
It’s sort of the same point you make above – once you’re familiar with limerence and how it distorts thinking you can get to the short cut of “if it’s not an enthusiastic yes then it’s a no“, and behave accordingly.
But most people feeling their way through limerence on instinct will misread, overinterpret, and ruminate on every word and action of their LO.
“Whether LO says yes or no, the subsequent behaviour of a naive limerent might well jeopardise the next stage of their relationship – especially if it’s in a work context.
It’s sort of the same point you make above – once you’re familiar with limerence and how it distorts thinking you can get to the short cut of “if it’s not an enthusiastic yes then it’s a no“, and behave accordingly.
But most people feeling their way through limerence on instinct will misread, overinterpret, and ruminate on every word and action of their LO.”
@Dr. L.
I think it’s extremely hard to get the balance right with relationships that start off with limerence – or anything limerence-related, for that matter.
On the one hand, if an LO does say yes to a relationship, that’s great, but the subsequent relationship is not always going to be “cosmic” in scale or emotion.
If one limits one’s limerence to the realm of fantasy, one can be as “cosmic” as one likes in one’s thoughts and feelings – until one gets sick of being cosmic.
I think limerents are really looking for that “clearly reciprocated emotional intensity” and if they can’t find it, from personal experience, the limerent is likely to get very upset and possibly end the budding relationship, while the LO is happy to remain in the relationship and doesn’t know why the limerent is being so intense, since the LO isn’t actually going anywhere.
I agree with you – it’s almost like the surplus of desire the limerent has for the LO can sabotage a burgeoning relationship, even if that relationship is consensual, inoffensive, socially appropriate, highly desired. Limerents can sabotage themselves by wanting more than any relationship can deliver. That’s just the nature of desire, and that’s something people have to grapple with as they mature. All humans desire more than they can actually have, and that is why “desire” is called “desire” in the first place!
People who define limerence primarily as a “trauma bond at first sight” are likely to be in mutual limerence. They will probably characterise their own limerence as a pathology at some point, and forget the good that can come out of limerence.
People who define limerence primarily as a “crush on steroids” are likely to be in one-sided limerence, but still believe they have a chance. They will probably characterise their own limerence as “romanticism” and over-emphasise the positive aspects of infatuation, much to the irritation of their fellow sufferers, who are having a less rosy roller-coaster ride.
I think limerence is neither pathology nor romanticism. It doesn’t need to be cured and it shouldn’t necessarily be celebrated either. I agree with Dorothy Tennov that it’s just a form of attachment/bonding some people have due to genetics. And, if someone finds themselves predisposed to this style of bonding, he/she needs to learn to domesticate the drive. One can’t eliminate limerence IMHO; one can only domesticate one’s own instincts.
In other words, for me, the solution to limerence suffering is education, education, education. If people don’t educate themselves, they’re just going to slap labels on themselves, divide themselves up into little tribes, and lob insults at people who don’t share their vibe. However, having said that, it’s very hard to “keep an open mind” when one is hurting deeply…
I can’t avoid all the attractive straight men in the world, and I’m not even going to try. I’m not interested in being a hermit. But I do have to accept that my desire is always my responsibility. I must regulate my desire.
I appreciate that your blog tries to keep the channel of knowledge and communication open for people who find themselves stranded in different parts of the “limerence river”. I’m uncomfortable with “tribalism” since I’ve always struggled to find any tribe that would accept me anyway. 😉
Another stellar post and the alliteration was delightful! Thanks Dr. L!
The only point I would like to question is this one:
“ Seeking the perspective of a trusted friend before you make decisions about your crush is a good idea. ”.
For me… during my LE most of my trusted friends got caught up in the novelistic supposed romance of it all and seemed to get a vicarious thrill as if they were watching a Jane Austen book come to light. My LO was giving very strong and positive yet sometimes confusing signals and I got a lot of encouragement from these trusted friends to keep “believing” in love and the obvious connection LO and I had, and that one day we would live happily ever after.
This was music to my ears but allowed the LE to persist for several thrilling, and simultaneously miserable, years.
From doing my own research and stumbling on this valuable site I finally figured out what might be going on and the glitter of the LE started to tarnish, and I slowly began to realize that I may not in fact live happily ever after (with this person). My friends were as reluctant to give up hope as I was.
I did have a couple of friends who were suspicious of LO from the outset and had nothing encouraging to say about this dalliance and had contempt for the whole venture from the outset, but they struck me as dour and bitter and strangely unsympathetic and unsupportive of something wondrous that was happening to me. Now I realize they were the voice of reason but without being educated on limerence (them or myself ) I wasn’t very open to their “negativity”. Too bad. If I had listened I would have reclaimed my life years earlier and recovery and healing wouldn’t have taken so long!!!
Like what has been mentioned, it’s so important to “nip” limerence in the bud before it takes root and the overgrowth smothers the true beauty and purpose one actually has in their life.
Limerence is not a benign thing…
“Limerence is not a benign thing…”
@Jaideux.
I don’t know what decade you had your formative life experiences in. But I grew up in the 90s, mostly the late 90s, and the 90s was awash in Jane Austen and derivatives of Jane Austen. I mean, I watched the BBC adaptation of “Pride and Prejudice” when I was 13 and read the novel for English class when I was 14. I’ve finally found the culprit for my limerence – 90s pop culture! Hahaha! 😉
“For me… during my LE most of my trusted friends got caught up in the novelistic supposed romance of it all and seemed to get a vicarious thrill as if they were watching a Jane Austen book come to light. My LO was giving very strong and positive yet sometimes confusing signals and I got a lot of encouragement from these trusted friends to keep “believing” in love and the obvious connection LO and I had, and that one day we would live happily ever after.
This was music to my ears but allowed the LE to persist for several thrilling, and simultaneously miserable, years.”
Oh, Jaideux! I know exactly where you’re coming from here.
An LE, when shared injudiciously with other people, can very easily become a source of group entertainment, which doesn’t help bring matters to a close.
It’s even worse when the limerent has actually been raised on Jane Austen books/movies, and thinks that romances are supposed to play out in this communal, larger-than-life way. Even the extremely modern girls on SATC all sit around in a friend group and dissect the behaviour of some attractive but unreliable man, and feed into the idea that besotted friend is living out a great love story and trusted friends are witnessing a great love story unfold. 😉
Sammy you really get it! 😁
““For me… during my LE most of my trusted friends got caught up in the novelistic supposed romance of it all and seemed to get a vicarious thrill as if they were watching a Jane Austen book come to light.”
I built a whole LE/EA on an updated online version of the 19th century romance of letters. It was working pretty well until LO #4’s relationship collapsed, she reached out to me and “WHAM!” we were suddenly back in the 21st first century and things became very real.
Considering where LO #4 moved after she left her BF, she could stand on her deck overlooking the bay and see the fog covering the water. Put LO #4 in a hooded cloak and she could be Meryl Streep in “The French Lieutenant’s Woman” https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/French_lieutenants_woman.jpeg
[OT: We took the movie on one of our operations on the submarine thinking that anything with a title like “The French Lieutenant’s Woman” had to be good. We were wrong. It was a 4-reel gagger.]
LE that seems very dramatic!! 🤣
I think enjoying limerence drama for entertainment is a former vice of mine.
No more!
Jaideux,
I’ve always had an oddly romantic streak in me as far back as I can remember. The only reason I can think of for it is that it’s the legacy of my wicked step-mother. She always had the great crooners of the 50s and early 60s playing. My mother had more of an affinity for Elvis, The Kingston Trio, and CW.
My preferred era would be Europe circa WWI. I share the surname of a German naval officer who served on a battlecruiser at the Battle of Jutland. I can see myself dancing to Strauss [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frZkYouXxI8] at grand balls in Berlin or Vienna; not that I can actually dance the waltz, at least with a real partner. I have no idea why that era appeals so much to me, but it does.
As much as I’d like to think that guy was a relative, the reality is that I’m Prussian peasant not Prussian aristocracy. The aristocracy didn’t flee the country at age 17 to avoid conscription into the Prussian army at the time. Have you ever seen the movie, “The Blue Max?” I’d be Bruno Stachel.
No woman that I’ve ever encountered is dancing with me at those balls. But, if I ever run into one, I could be in big trouble.
“If you jump in during the grip of infatuation without getting a good conceptual grasp of what limerence is and how it alters your thinking, there is a significant risk that even a promising relationship could get derailed by the mania.”
If limerence is an “altered state of mind” but also the means for “pair-bonding” than it seems even with mutual limerence that it is not a good foundation for a lasting relationship. It’s the equivalent of getting drunk and getting married in Vegas with someone you just met.
I am totally willing to admit this LE has made me quite bitter on the subject. I can’t see a positive side to any part of limerence. It’s the first drink, the first high, the first blackjack win, it’s the first kiss …. nothing will every be that FIRST. Limerence is that. It’s the first. And it will leave you in the same disenchanted, miserable, unhappy vicious cycle that is any addiction as you chase that “first”.
Then you start taking vacation days to spend time LO instead of your family. You buy LO gifts that you haven’t even bought your own wife. Then you start taking time to alter music lyrics in your head to think of LO. Then you start imagining what a life would be like with LO. Then you make excuses to call the office she is in hopes to talk to her. Then you get jealous of any other man being around her. Then you start unconsciously talking about her so excessively that your own children know something is wrong.
These are not the actions of a good man or good husband and yet I am guilty of every one of them. I see limerence as the dangerous thing that it is. One of the circles of hell assuredly because that’s what it is what it feels like. LO is like the “first time is free” from a drug dealer. Cause once you are hooked there is no telling what you will do to chase that “first”. If you are not sure how far you will go, please learn from my failure as a husband and father. Don’t let it get as bad as I did.
Adam, I can understand why you view limerence as always a bad thing because you didn’t have it with Mrs Adam, and you had it at an inappropriate time instead. I definitely had limerence with my husband and it was a good thing. I worked for an engineering company and I was in school, both full time, when I met my SO. I remember sitting at my desk and wondering if I would ever be able to focus on work or school again because I couldn’t stop thinking about my then fiancé. We married fast. He talked marriage on our first date even though we had just met. I had a ring in less than a month of us meeting and we married within 5 months of meeting. I think it’s working because we both already had the same values because both of us were committed to the same conservative Christian religion. What I’m saying is that I don’t think limerence is an evil tool, I think it is a tool that can be used for evil. I also think most limerents innocently stumble across its powers without realizing what is happening and they are deep in it’s grip before they recognize that there is a problem. But I really think it is a good way to bring two single people together. It’s just a disaster when it strikes us married people.
Adam, you are good man with a loving heart. And even though you claim to have left your Christian roots, they didn’t leave you. You are soaking in guilt just like the rest of us.
Miss Lovisa
It is nice to hear about limerence with happy results. I am just frustrated with my experience and how it has soured me in some ways. It’s certainly been a learning experience. For good or bad … it just seems like bad. But maybe there will be something positive come of it. If anything the experience can help me to guard against it happening again.
But I am very glad that you are your husband felt the joy of mutual limerence for each other and it has been a strength to your bond together. Maybe in it’s own ugly way limerence has strengthen my resolve to be a better spouse and father.
We are all back together as a family since our oldest is home for the summer from college. He plans on using the summer to earn some income so that he can rent an apartment when classes start again. He said living in the dorm is difficult with hardly any privacy. So him and a friend are going to roommate when classes start up again. I am so proud of the responsible and loving man he is.
His last day at the dorm was Friday and I couldn’t help him move out because of work so he stayed at his lady friend’s house Friday night till I came to get him Saturday morning. So I met her parents and sister. They all seemed very nice people and are very pleased with her choice with our son. Her mother complimented our raising our son how we did several times in conversation. It was very nice to hear.
His mother did so well raising him while I was out driving miles trying to provide for them. She is the most amazing mother. I know I could not have done it myself and the boys turn out the way they have. But I didn’t have to. And now we are all together again. I am hoping for good times ahead.
Thank you for sharing your limerent experience with your husband. It helps me keep my limerent experience in perspective. And keeps me from being too bitter about limerence in general.
Thank you for being here Miss Lovisa. You and so many here have helped me out more ways than I can put into words.
I am so happy that you get to have the summer with your boy! Live it up, they leave sooner than we expect. As a mom of four daughters, I want to thank you and your wife for raising a nice young man. I think boys are harder to raise than girls. My daughters are lovely, innocent and kind. I hope they find good companions when they’re ready.
I think you will find value in your limerent experience. I think you can drink from this bitter cup without becoming bitter.
I am grateful for your presence on this website as well as so many others, too. We are lucky to have found this resource.
“I see limerence as the dangerous thing that it is.”
@Adam
I don’t see it as anything but a dangerous venture into an emotional train wreck (particularly when you have a SO which I do.) I see no upside to it at all because it is basically an illusion, not real and a distortion. I’d rather just take a psychedelic drug for a few hours and let my mind go somewhere else knowing at least the drug will wear off shortly and then I can get back to my “normal” life. I miss the normal, the mundane rhythms I used to have. The structure and the quiet reflective moments where my mind can relax and enjoy the life I am living. The LE cheats me out of my personhood with the incessant ruminating and whatnot and splatters me into different directions. The LE steals part of me away from myself and the end result is burnout. Very similar to the effects of too much of a “good thing” back in my college days of youth (sex, drugs, rock and roll). But now at my age it just feels like burn-out.
“I miss the normal, the mundane rhythms I used to have. The structure and the quiet reflective moments where my mind can relax and enjoy the life I am living. The LE cheats me out of my personhood with the incessant ruminating and whatnot and splatters me into different directions. The LE steals part of me away from myself and the end result is burnout. Very similar to the effects of too much of a “good thing” back in my college days of youth”
@DogGirl.
I like your reflection here. Yes, limerence definitely made me feel like my mind was being torn apart in a hundred different directions at once. 😉
“Limerence is that. It’s the first. And it will leave you in the same disenchanted, miserable, unhappy vicious cycle that is any addiction as you chase that “first”.”
Think you hit the nail on the head with that one Adam. I have often compared this LE to an addiction.
My entire life has been about feeding addictions and when I try to kill one, another one enters. Ultimately my entire marriage was killed due to an addiction. (Luckily not due to limerence though)
The timing of LO got in at just the right time, which is exactly what you posted earlier.
“If you jump in during the grip of infatuation without getting a good conceptual grasp of what limerence is and how it alters your thinking, there is a significant risk that even a promising relationship could get derailed by the mania.”
I got so overwhelmed with emotion and excitement when LO glimmered, that I lost all perspective on reality. I had no idea what I was feeling or what limerence even was. But it was the most unbelievable high and low I have ever felt. Intensity for LO off the charts. I told so many people that I found the most perfect woman in the known Universe. I thought for sure her and I would live happily ever after. And it turns out, I mis-read the whole damn event… And that’s because I didn’t really have a grip on what was really happening. All I saw was Gods Masterpiece. Which altered my state of mind and derailed any better effort I could’ve made. Just like you mentioned above.
Now I’m just sad all the time for everything I didn’t do. I’ve never cried so much as I have in the last 3 months. And the bitterness has crept in as well. Just resentful and doubtful about a better future too.
On top of that, things with my Father have taken a turn for the worst as he has been in the hospital for over a week now. Not sure if he is going to make it.
I won’t vent it all here right now, but Adam, I get why you are bitter. Be happy though you have a wife who has been understanding enough and seems to have forgiven you and is there for you tonight. I am going home to 2 cats later.
I’m sorry about your dad, Mj.
Thank you Lovisa, things were better today. But still a long road ahead of us.
Sorry to hear about your Dad, MJ.
Thank you ABCD. It’s been a long night but he had a much better day
Yeah the addictive part of the limerence that intense desire to be around LO. I know our situations are quite different in other parts of our relationships, but I can surely relate to you with both LO of ours made the decision for us. It makes you wonder their feelings about you. Where you any part of the equation why they left? You overthink every conversation you had. Your body language….did you cross any boundaries and they are just to gracious to voice them? Does she have a positive or negative view of our work relationship? Will she remember me positively or not?
The uncertainty is paralyzing and debilitating. That uncertainty (at least for me) is what manifested the intrusive thoughts. I had enough of a grasp on reality, as you seem to as well, to know that contact with LO would not only make the limerence worse it would also be invading LO’s privacy and their lives. So all I was left to was wondering … every single thing. Then when it gets so bad that you are miserable and trying to stop then (again for me at least) that’s when they got worse as my limerent brain fights to stay dominant.
On my way to work this morning I was listening to “that playlist” (as my wife calls it), or my limerent playlist. I had forgotten I had saved this song for my wife because it reminds me of her and the situation we are in with limerence. But I never really listened it closely before. But I was this morning and these few lines hit me hard.
“cutting the ties that
bound both our lives
just to blind to realize
I was chasing a fantasy
and hurting the one
who would never hurt me”
This Time I Know It’s For Real — Norman Saleet
https://youtu.be/79TNLSfO9sQ
It’s a very beautiful song. I think for me it’s hitting me hard because even if it was unconscious limerence I was still breaking bonds with my wife to form bonds with LO. But it was all a fantasy. Nothing was ever going to happen between LO and myself other than being co-workers. And I now I have put my wife through this pain that I know she never would put me through.
For your case maybe cutting the ties from your heart will help with you moving on. Because limerence in (at least from the sample base here) most cases is not mutual limerence or has obvious barriers. Making limerence for the most of us a not pleasant experience.
Limerence like any addiction, most people don’t set out to do. Everyone has their first beer/drink, first joint, cigarette, etc. But not every one becomes addicts right off. But the people that do, are the ones searching for that “first” again, like with LO. Take my wife she’s smoked since she was 14. I can take it or leave it. I quit snuff back in 2011 and have only touched it once since. I like to drink. When my wife did drink (she’s been sober since 2019) she could take or leave it. What a pair we are lol
But MJ yes I am a very fortunate man that she is willing to work through her own personal pain and let me back in. It’s a slow process. But I can tell little bits at a time she is letting me back in. I am so fortunate. And do not want to waste this second chance she has given me.
“Limerence like any addiction, most people don’t set out to do. Everyone has their first beer/drink, first joint, cigarette, etc. But not every one becomes addicts right off. But the people that do, are the ones searching for that “first” again, like with LO.”
@Adam.
I read somewhere that addicts aren’t chasing highs in general; what addicts are chasing is that first high. (I guess the subsequent highs are never as good as the first high?)
I don’t know where I read that. Heck, I might even have read that on LwL. It does sound like something Limerent Emeritus would say… 😜
I have a question about the “altered state” part of limerence.
Does someone have to have a current LO to be in an altered state? I.e. can one be in an altered state before finding an LO or in between different LOs?
Can one be in an altered state for five years, a normal state for five years, and then an altered state for five years?
In other words, are limerence-prone individuals in a continuous altered state their whole lives, or can people slide in and out of this altered state, depending on the availability of LOs in the social environment?
If people can slide in and out of limerence, then it stands to reason there must be a limerence switch that can be turned off and on – a way to activate and deactivate the relevant genes. Maybe some limerents never have their limerence genes activated, and therefore never experience an LE in the course of their lifetime? (I know LImerent Emeritus has mentioned this idea before).
On the other hand, if limerence is an altered state that is continuous once it starts, say, in early adolescence, then one can only find LOs while remaining in that headspace. When one exits that headspace, no one should technically be able to become an LO for the limerent, because limerence requires the altered state as a precondition.
I know the on/off switch idea has been raised in previous blog posts. But can anyone confidently identify when they are or aren’t experiencing an altered state? I mean, who’s become really good at reading what “state” one is in? I.e. normal or altered? Or is the anguish such a real giveway that this sounds like a silly question? It must be quite useful in theory to know when one is in an altered state. (Better the limerent knows what’s going on before a grumpy LO expresses displeasure).
I’ll try and answer this in reference to myself as best I can.
With my LE, I can admit my altered state only came into being when the glimmer for LO hit. I’m not sure it would be possible to be in an altered state otherwise. I don’t think I could feel anything, not being in the LE.
I mention it only because of how massive my LE hit when it did. And I do mean massive.
I look back to any crush I felt for females in my past, including my Ex Spouse. They pale in comparison to how this crush felt. It just took over and I’ve never experienced anything like this. Nor did I ever think it was possible.
You mention the anguish that compliments the feeling, and that is exactly how it has always felt. So much that I could actually, physically feel my heart truly ache for LO. Still do if I let the rumination/longing take over. So to me, that feels like the true altered state. It’s something I’m working on, but not easy since I feel like my options are thin to almost non-existent most days.
Hope this somewhat answers the question.
@MJ.
Thank you for your excellent feedback.
“With my LE, I can admit my altered state only came into being when the glimmer for LO hit. I’m not sure it would be possible to be in an altered state otherwise. I don’t think I could feel anything, not being in the LE.
I mention it only because of how massive my LE hit when it did. And I do mean massive.”
This is my feeling too – that the “altered state” and meeting LO (glimmer) coincide. I.e. the two things happen roughly at the same time.
Does the LE feel epic for some people right away? For me, there was a gradual build-up of feelings. I.e. the infatuation started out pretty small and manageable, but then grew steadily in intensity until it reached “massive” proportions.
“You mention the anguish that compliments the feeling, and that is exactly how it has always felt. So much that I could actually, physically feel my heart truly ache for LO. Still do if I let the rumination/longing take over. So to me, that feels like the true altered state.”
Okay, yup, gotcha. The “anguish” and the “aching heart” are all part of the altered state.
LO at work, my boss. I’m struggling and in agony right now. I’ve been understanding my limerence since reading Tennov in 2013. I’ve had episodes at least half a dozen times in the last 30 years. All these articles and people’s input are so helpful. Thank you Dr. L and to everyone sharing their thoughts, feelings and experience. Is there a support group? People to actually meet, share with, listen to and just have a moment to get out of our heads?
Welcome Amara! I’m sorry you’re going through that. This is the only support group that I know of. Some of us use the comments section as a support group. It has been a life-saver for me. Feel free to share if you’d like, but I understand that it feels risky.
Good luck!
Thank you for the warm welcome! I honestly did not expect to get this much response. I’m in awe and already feeling better–feeling-warm-virtual-hugs better. 🙂 I am about to enter a meeting with my LO this morning. I have an emotional management system in place for times like this (come at a certain time to prep, breathing exercises, supplements, calming beverage etc). Anchoring myself to specific routines contingent to a potential setting/trigger events has been somewhat effective. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t. Again, thank you!
Nice work, Amara! You have tools to get through rough moments. That is impressive! I’m adding a tool to your kit: you are not alone. Many of the LwL commenters can relate to your struggles. We are cheering for you. I hope your strategy to minimize your limerent symptoms works.
You got this!
Hi Amara! On LwL’s Resources page, there’s a link to a limerence discussion forum founded by some of the LwL community members. Personally, I don’t see much difference between the blog’s comments section here and the forum. It’s just slightly more private using the forum; you’ll be able to edit and tweak small errors in your posts and follow up on others’ posts more easily.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/resources/
Thank you, I will check this out too!
A real support group would be fantastic. However, I do find this group to be very helpful as well.
Plus we’re super nice people too.
There’s always Discord.
You can do a lot with it. You can set up private groups. Someone would have to run it and if you associate it with LwL, I’d think DrL would have to endorse it.
Ive only created one discord server but its pretty basic. Ive been on discord since 2016 in a variety of servers. If Dr L would endorse one I would be more than happy to do the leg work to get it up and running.
Actually, there is a Discord group that already existed side-by-side with the current community forum prior to the closure of the original platform hosted by Dr. L. The only downside of the Discord group link sharing is that the invitation link expires after 7 days.
Nonetheless, we have group members updating the invitation link in the forum every now and then. Adam, it would be great if you could offer to help co-manage the Discord group too, because I think it started with many of us not being too familiar with Discord, lol. I’m sure someone in the forum could direct you to the right place.
Hi Adam,
I’ve gotten a new 7-days validity invitation link from the LwL community Discord group, and I’m hoping you could join and maybe help someone there with the leg work there, because I think even the folks who started it might have been new to Discord and aren’t sure about how to make the invite link stay open without a time limit.
https://discord.com/invite/eF34cJSz
It would be great if you could help the group with your knowledge and experience of Discord. Maybe that will make the Discord group active again, as currently I heard it’s been considerably quiet there for months.
Thank you so much in advance if you choose to help with this, Adam! I think you’ll make a great Discord admin & mod from seeing your posts here 🙂
Thank you to all who have responded, and quickly at that! I’m hoping to find/meet with a group (Zoom or cafe) be in the company of folks away from technology, talk/listen, make connections outside of reading/typing. My job requires me to be in front of the computer hours on end. It is isolating and the perfect pot for obsessive thoughts. Being around folks have always kept the intrusive thoughts at bay, however when I do bring it up amongst closest friends it’s very difficult for them to understand no matter how I explain. They’re advice is valuable but hard to connect with.
I’m vaguely familiar with Discord. Do people eventually meet up in person? Sorry I’m not too forum savvy. If anyone know of any such resource that would be great. I will definitely be contributing to this group and continue to lean in for support. Thank you nice caring people!
We’ve been joking about DrL setting up an LwL convention for years. It comes up periodically. It would include an awards ceremony. I’ve already claimed the first Lifetime Achievement Award. I’m also the DJ for the after session mixer.
I can’t remember the blog with the last post on it but DrL thought that getting that many limerents together in one place would implode the universe or something along those lines.
That’s one cool thing about the Discord group, people can privately message each other and if they want to meet up, that would be up to them.
I also remember the imaginary conversation that some limerents with SO would have to go through before leaving for the convention. The thought of it still makes me wince every now and then, lol.
Discord invitations can be set with time limit. If Dr L wanted to indorse a discord for this blog and do a post about the invite link could be posted there and anyone interested could join when and if they wanted to. I think a live chat avenue would be nice therapy for those in immediate need to talk to someone. Instead of waiting hours or days for someone to notice their cry for help.
Thankfully after I already found this place I disclosed to my wife about my limerence. So if such a thing happened I would invite her to go with me. Before that though, yeah I agree with you.
“DrL thought that getting that many limerents together in one place would implode the universe or something along those lines.”
Now that made me laugh!!
Imagine all of our heads in one place..
LOL yep thought about that! Maybe start with a manageable limit of 3-5 per “cell group”? Structured monthly meetings with a facilitator? Idk maybe I’m thinking along the lines of AA type I guess?? Then once ready to check out…Possibly match with a sponsor? Just tossing my thoughts out there wrapped in desperation. My intrusive thoughts are on overdrive most of the time (during an episode), and when they’re dulled I feel this sense of withdrawal/exhaustion with a quiet craving to get back to the thoughts–a soft persistent drumbeat just below the surface.
“with NO time limit”
Adam proofread your posts smh
There seems to be something about the workplace/office environment that makes limerence (or at least crushing) more likely!
Trying to put my finger on what that is, though. Any ideas are welcome!
Exposure. You have more opportunities to intermingle with attractive people without SO supervision.
“SO supervision” – hilarious
“Trying to put my finger on what that is, though. Any ideas are welcome!”
@Ted.
Not really an answer your question. But doesn’t limerence involve one or both people almost hiding an almost overpowering attraction? And “hiding one’s attraction” almost becomes a full-time job in itself, going from memory.
Isn’t hiding the strength of one’s attraction stressful at times? And wouldn’t it lead to lower productivity because one probably isn’t at work to work anymore? I.e. one is thinking: “Oh, I hope I bump into so-and-so in the corridor.”
For me it’s compartmentalization of my life. Work is a place where SO doesn’t really exist but LO does. And seeing how I spend 9 hrs a day there it is easy to fall into a crush at work.
Some people have long work weeks, which gives you lots of time to see/be with LO. Some people are at work more than they are at home. So why not find a fun LO to hang with at work and make the day go by?
I know I enjoyed my work week much better when LO and I were doing 60 hour weeks.
All good things must end though..
This blog is so helpful. I sit next to my LO and am her boss. Tapering off contact is almost impossible. I am
married with kids but one day LO came in sobbing to work and subsequently told me about her strained relationship with her SO. She has subsequently remarked on several occasions about their relationship not being strong. I’ve tried to become aloof at work but it’s just not the real me and I’m so addicted to her personality I’ve found it easier (poor excuse) to just keep the conversation going even though I feel worse in the long run for it. She does move departments in a few months so I guess I will have some breathing space but before then I simply don’t know how to behave / act.
Welcome Martin Saggers! You are not alone and what you are experiencing is normal. Your body releases feel-good hormones in the presence of your LO. A lot of people struggle with this problem.
You say that you are her boss and have regular contact with her? That is tricky. We have a few men in our community who can relate to what you’re going through. Speedwagon did a good job of identifying his triggers and establishing safe contact with his LO. Something he encourages others to do is to establish a predictable routine. He would also recommend that you avoid personal texting because it is too triggering. I would recommend that you try to avoid daydreaming about your LO because that feeds the limerent beast. I am sorry that she confided her marriage problems to you. That will probably trigger your hero instinct. I attached two articles that I think you’ll like. You might enjoy the comments section as well.
This is a good time for you to work on your marriage. Many of us come out of our limerence with a stronger relationship with our SO because we were able to identify gaps. I’ve given you some ideas to start. I’d love to hear your thoughts.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-for-a-co-worker/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-the-rescue-fantasy/
Best wishes!
Does your company have an EAP program? Does she have health insurance through the company?
Remind her of the benefits she has and recommend that she avail herself of them.
You’re her boss, not her therapist, clergy, or attorney. Do not become her confidante beyond what you need to know as it affects her attendance and performance.
Martin Saggers, hello. I am MJ. I try to be a regular here but not one who can give the best advice.
About all I can identify with here, is the work LO situation. I am 52, divorced, and my LO is 28, also divorced. We used to work in the same building up until February this year, when she moved to a different location, in a different building from me. I wish I could say that made my limerence easier, but lack of contact has only made me miss her more. Causing me serious mood swings and serious depression. It’s crazy.
I wish you luck because you will have to see LO up until she moves departments. Until then, we are here for you. Limerent Emeritus had very good advice up there, so I strongly advise she look into EAP as well. Since you are her Boss, be ever so careful. I know you probably already know that, but work situations can be so tricky.
Hi Martin, as Lovisa mentioned, your situation seems quite similar to mine. I’ve been limerent for about 16 months now for my younger female employee. We are both married, so needless to say, many barriers exist. My LO is also in a strained marriage though she is committed to it and does not speak directly about her marriage to me. I just know things from her circumstances.
I have to coexist with LO in a close office space and typically have to collaborate with her most everyday. Over the last year I started to strategize how to manage the LE instead of lamenting it all the time. Since I can’t go no contact this is about as best as I can do. Here are some tips:
First, I made peace with the fact that I’m limerent and may stay this way for some time, years maybe, as long as I have to coexist with LO.
Limerence likes to thrive on interactions with LO, especially new interactions. I learned to make my interactions routine and boring work related for the most part. Each day I know what to expect from LO if I keep it routine. My LO is introverted and not an initiator so she is not really a wildcard for me.
Other than seeing her at office I keep her out of my life, no social media or looking at any pics I have of her from office events. This is all part of not ruminating.
I do not text with her anymore (we used to text), texting is the devils playground for the limerent mind.
I try to avoid deep eye contact with her. Eye contact is what hooked me to begin with.
Last, I’ve invested friendship in a few other great ladies at the office that I’m not limerent for. They make a nice distraction.
All these things keep my emotions fairly stable and I’m able to function well both professionally and personally. If I start to invest or pursue LO in any way emotionally, that typically sends me into deeper lows later. Stability is name of game right now, and just pray she steps out of my life at some point so I can be full NC.
Good luck!!! I know it sucks big time!
Oh God the confiding. Took my limerence to 110% “Adam thank you for listening, you’re so understanding.” God she’d break me with that. On my knees.
@Adam – Ah, yes!
Me: “Thank you for letting me confide in you”
LO: “It’s so great that you can confide in me and I can confide in you too”
Me: “I will always be your confidante when you need one”
and so it went on…..
Now it’s all gone.
Yeah being that shoulder to cry on or that listening ear was something that was so sweet but so bad for the limerence. I did good not to confide in her very much but anytime she needed me I was there.
Someone was asking for a list of things that ramped limerence up:
I would put Confiding at #1.
Anyone who works in a workplace should be warned by HR on the first day of work: if your colleague starts to tell them your personal troubles, the likelihood of you becoming emotional for them goes from 10% to 90%.
I just think anyone who is married has no business talking about their spouse and marriage problems except for said spouse and therapist.
I’ve said it before…
Being the confidante of an unhappy woman [in my case, a woman who was being cheated on] is like getting in the back seat of a getaway car fleeing the scene of a crime.
– You’re not driving
– She’s not listening
– He SO is in the front seat with her
– If you have an SO, she/he is in the backseat with you and they likely don’t know anything
– you have no idea where you’re going
– you have no control over the eventual outcome
She crashes and you burn.
LO #4 wasn’t the first woman who confided in me. She was the third. I knew where that could go.
Hoping someone can help me understand the limerent perspective and offer the perspective of someone who senses what may be limerence in another.
I want to know WHY this person behaved the way he did. Is it something he couldn’t stop himself from doing? Is it possible he wasn’t fully aware of what he was doing even over such a long period?
He wasn’t an asshole. Everyone liked him (including me). So why have a big flirty smile on his face from the first day?
Flirtation always feels manipulative to me. Like a power play. Because if I don’t like it, how do I address it? (Which is why I always think you should be up front with your LOs or you may be causing them a lot of distress that they don’t know how to communicate to you!) Especially if it’s a work environment.
And double especially if you’re married and you always look elated around your LO they could be feeling really distressed because the other awful side of flirtation is after a couple of months of being on the receiving end, your single LO may succumb to fantasy of their own. Again, a shitty thing to do! I’m single. He’s not. He goes home to someone, I am reminded of how alone I am. Intimacy is like eating sugar. If you go without it for a long time, you forget what you’re missing. If you get a taste of it you have to fight the desire for it all over again.
The final problem is the denial. I became so distressed I confronted him which of course resulted in denial. I felt gaslit. So from my perspective I was cornered with no way out. I feel like he has no concept of how distressed I was (despite writing to him and telling him directly) and I feel like he’s absolved himself of any wrongdoing and has just gone on without a second thought. I lost a whole community that I loved because I’m the one that had to leave. I need a way to forgive him because I’m angry. Angry there was no acknowledgment of the behavior and no apology.
So, if there was any conscious behavior, that was a shitty thing to do. But what if it wasn’t? Have any of you noticed you probably look giddy with excitement around your LO, blurt out comments about how they look (not necessarily compliments but just noticing lots of small details and changes) and complain to them about your SO and has that maybe not been a conscious choice? This behavior went on for months which is what I’m struggling to make sense of and forgive. Please don’t gaslight your LOs. If you’re sure you’ve kept it entirely to yourself, fair enough. If you haven’t, you need to own your behavior because you’ve already ’disclosed’ to an extent and you’re just messing with your LOs head.
@Call me Cordelia.
I would like to answer your question, but I’m not entirely sure where you’re coming from?
E.g. are you limerent for someone who acted like they were limerent for you, and you want an explanation of that person’s behaviour? Or do you suspect you’re someone’s LO, but object to flirting that strays outside certain widely-recognised moral boundaries? Or are you both of these things at the same time? 😉
“I want to know WHY this person behaved the way he did. Is it something he couldn’t stop himself from doing? Is it possible he wasn’t fully aware of what he was doing even over such a long period?”
I think all limerents want to know why LOs behave a certain way. So you’re certainly not alone in that regard. What separates limerents from non-limerents is we spend a lot of time “reading into” behaviour, trying to find the correct meaning, especially if there is some level of attraction there.
The “pain” of this constant rumination can eventually lead to anger, due to inability to turn rumination off. I think limerents are angry at themselves for lacking self-control. But limerents don’t lack self-control, strictly speaking. Limerence is by definition involuntary.
In answer to your question, I’d say the latter – he wasn’t AWARE of the feelings of emotional distress his inconsistent behaviour was inducing in you. 😉
“Flirtation always feels manipulative to me. Like a power play. Because if I don’t like it, how do I address it?”
A very interesting perspective. I know where you’re coming from, emotion-wise. You’re looking at the situation through the lens of pure emotion, which is totally normal and necessary for a time. But I don’t agree with you intellectually.
First things first, the rules of flirting are probably different for married people and single people.
Secondly, flirting means different things to different people. There’s genuine flirting, indicating the existence of real emotions, and then there’s just superficial flirting that almost serves as a social lubricant in groups of people.
Thirdly, flirting may signify emotional investment. But limerents bring a whole different level of emotional investment to the table than most people. I.e. the limerent wants to pair-bond with the LO, and is experiencing dopamine-fuelled romantic attraction. Romantic attraction is the most potent reward in the universe. Romantic attraction is much stronger than mere friendliness or sexual interest, or a combination of both mere friendliness and sexual interest.
In other words, from my perspective, flirting isn’t always manipulative and flirting isn’t always a power play, even if it comes from an LO. I feel the “anger response” to flirting is a little misguided, if you’ll forgive me for saying so, because it assigns a weight to the flirting that the flirting may never have had – at least for the other person doing the flirting, yeah? 🤔
Basically, the limerent’s own strong desire (for the LO) colours interpretation of flirtatious behaviour. What’s harmless banter in one situation is utterly toxic, crazy-making, you-ruined-my-life-you-turnip weirdness in another situation. 🤣
“And double especially if you’re married ..”
Oh, I hear ya. Married folk should behave themselves, they should. (I can be preachy about married people because I’m not married. Forgive me). 😉
“… your single LO may succumb to fantasy of their own.”
Shades of entrapment? 😁
“Intimacy is like eating sugar. If you go without it for a long time, you forget what you’re missing. If you get a taste of it you have to fight the desire for it all over again.”
Sounds like addiction in a nutshell, my dear… 😉
“So from my perspective I was cornered with no way out. I feel like he has no concept of how distressed I was (despite writing to him and telling him directly) and I feel like he’s absolved himself of any wrongdoing and has just gone on without a second thought.”
Honestly, I think this is really common feeling among limerents. What you’re feeling is totally normal, and it’s not wrong to give yourself time and permission to feel all the angst. Then, after you’ve felt all the angst, come back to the table of common humanity and look at the situation in a more sober, clear-eyed manner.
If someone hasn’t set out to entrap you, and they haven’t had some painful past LE (limerence episode) themselves to use as a reference point, they are not going to comprehend your distress. Your distress is going to seem odd to them.
I have been in this situation myself with a young man. He was lovely, just lovely, had no bad intentions toward me whatever, and was actually quite moral and upstanding. (Not my main LO, but someone else). He literally couldn’t fathom the distress I was feeling in relation to him, and could offer no meaningful response other than suggesting we start a ‘new chapter” in our friendship. I’ve also had another potential romantic interest threaten to “wash his hands of me”, but he was a bad egg, and I dumped him before he could dump me!! But, again, Mr Bad Egg (a non-limerent) couldn’t comprehend my distress. I’ve since forgiven him. 🤣
“I lost a whole community that I loved because I’m the one that had to leave. I need a way to forgive him because I’m angry. Angry there was no acknowledgment of the behavior and no apology.”
Losing your whole community must have been very painful. I’m sorry you lost so much – and in exchange for so little! However, realistically, you may not be the one who is owed an apology. Limerence can make entitled, egotistical, emotionally-dysregulated monsters of the nicest people. You know what I’m saying? 😉😆
“So, if there was any conscious behavior, that was a shitty thing to do. But what if it wasn’t?”
It is precisely this kind of self-awareness that will be your salvation in the end as a limerent. There’s hope for you yet. 😜
“If you haven’t, you need to own your behavior because you’ve already ’disclosed’ to an extent and you’re just messing with your LOs head.”
Energy leaks out – that’s for sure. However, elation and giddiness and froth and sparkle and even outright chemistry are no proof of mutual limerence, and so no gaslighting has taken place on the part of the LO. In fact, limerence most often occurs in situations when there’s a genuine bond between two people e.g. friendship. There are many people out there who experience attraction but not ecstasy. It’s the “altered state” of limerence that gives us such a warped view of the world (and other people’s intentions, or lack of intentions thereof). 😉
Hi Sammy
Thanks for the response. I realise it reads like I was limerent for him but I believe he was limerent for me. I definitely had no thoughts about him and found his flirtation very irritating right from the start.
I think I have every right to be irritated by flirtatious behavior (especially from a married man!) I’ve explained on other posts (including the Good LO page where you commented on my other post) about how it feels to feel used for validation. I have chemistry with a lot of people but there’s a huge difference between a smile that’s giving and a smile that’s looking for validation. I wrote on the Good LO page that I feel manipulated because I smile back out of kindness and social conditioning more than because I want to. I actually want to scowl but because I like them (apart from the irritating behavior) I try to be kind.
On the other page I gave the perspective of the LO who picks up on the giddiness, the long gazes of adoration, the frequent comments noticing changes about my appearance, the complaints to me about his wife, the comparisons to me. It took a couple of months for me to start musing in my head whether I could reciprocate. It was only a couple of weeks of thinking about it before I realised we weren’t compatible. So I quit. The only ruminating I’ve done since then is fantasizing about receiving an apology and wondering what sort of person does these things and what motivated him. As others have said on the Good LO page, while he perhaps felt compelled to behave the way he did, he was definitely lacking in integrity. That helps a lot. I just wanted to understand the behavior because I had to walk away from something I loved. I also wanted limerents to realise that when they’re endlessly engaging in covert flirtation, even if I’m single, it can be very distressing for your LO because they can’t address it! What could I have said to stop it other than be unkind or call him out? No matter what I did, he’d cornered me into exploding it (because I was incredibly uncomfortable) or flirting back which I wasn’t going to do with a married man. Now that I know what limerence is, I’ll be much clearer with anyone I perceive as potentially limerent (this has happened to me a lot, I have received quite a few love letters that blindsided me in the past) and make sure I don’t engage with them if we have chemistry because I realise now that could be perceived as leading them on.
@Call me Cordelia.
From the sound of things, you are a person who wants to behave conscientiously, and I think that’s really admirable! 😛
@Cordelia
Your post reminds me how grateful I am, not to have engaged much in pointless banter or flirty behavior that could’ve easily irritated my LO. Even with the little I have done, I feel like some of the things you mention, are the words I could almost tell my LO might have been thinking in her head sometimes, just by the look on her face. I considered writing her once also. Not necessarily so much a love letter. I really only wanted to write her how beautiful I think she is.
After reading your post, I definitely will pass on the letter idea.
It sucks you had to leave the gym because of that guy. I can see why that would be annoying, being caught off like that. Especially if he is married.
I am single and so is my LO, so I have that in my favor I guess. What I can tell though is that because she is very attractive, I think she assumes I’m just another guy that wants in her pants. I’m trying not to come off like that, but I guess I’m stuck on not having a clue what to say either. Since I don’t want to mess things up, I’m convinced to do little, to nothing, because I don’t want to be labeled a creep. Trying to be ok with that but I want to do more at some point, so I can at least be in her circle.
Hi MJ
Do you and your LO work together? Could she reasonably avoid you if she didn’t reciprocate? I’m actually all for saying how you feel. The reason being if she can sense it coming from you, but you’re being covert about it, that might be something that irritates her. Especially because if you don’t own it she can’t address it. Not owning it renders her powerless to do anything either way and like me she may just decide she can’t stand being around you and avoid you. But I’m the kind of person who doesn’t seek external validation and I have no time for flirtation from others because I want they to validate themselves. If she likes the validation flirtation (or even admiration) gives her, then her response would be different from mine I suppose 🤷♀️
I understand how powerful limerence is. I was once limerent to a ridiculous extent. I’m pretty sure he was limerent for me too. We had a 20-year friendship spanning three continents, many video chats and emails etc. I didn’t know what an EA was all those years ago but we definitely had one through all of our relationships with others. It finally exploded when I left my partner and we were both single for the first time in about 10 years. I was seeing a psychologist, I was obviously more mature and …ahhh the story is loooong and intense but to make it shorter I told him how I had felt for the last 20 years but also said I always felt a relationship wouldn’t have worked. And it wouldn’t have because I was emotionally immature (and so was he). I was too busy protecting myself and my ego. Once I was freed of that I was able to tell him how much I loved him unconditionally without expectation of anything in return.
I do believe he was limerent for me. I just didn’t think I was his type (based on all the girls he dated). He flirted a lot with me. I did a lot of deflecting because I thought his flirting was mocking me for how I felt about him. But he also put himself on the line a number of times and I threw it back in his face out of fear. Because the limerence had built to a point where I was overwhelmed by my emotions and feelings for him. I was paralyzed with the fear of how I felt and how vulnerable I was. I suppose I didn’t entirely trust him to love me back enough.
He hasn’t spoken to me for three years and it hurt a lot to begin with but I’m really OK with it now.
I had to learn to surrender to the unknown. So many things he never answered (or gave me an honest answer to). But again, that’s OK because that whole explosion forced me to turn inwards, have self compassion for my darkness and embrace myself wholly. It’s something I still work on daily but I suppose I’m at maintenance now having spent years doing some very confronting work on myself. It’s hard but very liberating. I’m looking forward to whatever relationship comes my way next because I know it will be with somebody emotionally mature. That’s what I’m drawn to now ☺️
@Cordelia
LO and I work for the same company. We actually used to work in the same building but in different departments. She works as an Analyst in the office and I am a Tech on the main floor. We work for a Big 3 Auto Manufacturer.
In February, her Manager transferred out of our building, to an alternate facility we operate next door. It wasn’t long before he courted LO and she went to go work under him over there. Which of course devastated me, but I know they always got along well, so if that’s what she had to do, then so be it. Thing is, I don’t see her as much now and really hardly ever. Unless I see her in the parking lot next door, or she comes back over to meet her friends at lunch. It’s not very common though.
The strange thing about my LE is that it never really got off the ground. It began with a smile from her one day and that was because I had spent almost an entire week of catching her eyes when I would walk by her office going on break. Either she would catch me staring at her or she would stare at me. Nothing like come and get me stares. But just like an an acknowledgement of, I see you. I caught you staring. I compared her smile that day, to being hit with a limerence meteorite from Cupid. The glimmer was intense. My heart just exploded with so much desire for this Woman.
What’s crazy about that is that before the LE, I never really considered her as gf material because she’s just out my league, plain and simple. I would see her around, acknowledge she was pretty and moved about my day. I may have said hi to her once and she was friendly back, but that was it. For her to smile at me like that, after all that staring everyday, I couldn’t stop smiling. I was beside myself. But I probably read her signal wrong.
Fast forward, the staring back and forth at each other went on for months. There were a few times, I tried to approach and start a conversation, but she never seemed interested enough to stop and talk. This happened outside at break a few times. I would say hi but her hello back to me was distant feeling. Even being somewhat cold at times. Yet the staring back and forth still persisted later on in the day. The office is located in a part of the building, that is by the only entrance/exit, so it was impossible to avoid her if I was going outside on a break. Which of course I always wanted to walk by and see her anyway.
There were also times I would see her on the floor and a few times I wanted to approach her there, where I thought it would be safe with people around. But then she would see me and duck out by going another way. Or if she didn’t duck out, she would get on her phone to look busy.
I presented the story in full when I arrived to LwL and many of the replies stated they thought she might be getting freaked out because I don’t ever say anything to her. That she was trying to figure out if I’m a threat to her or not.
I can completely identify with what you mention about her sensing my vibe, but I was actually being totally covert about it, by not saying anything. Which I could really sense that in her eye contact sometimes. It probably did piss her off since I wouldn’t own up to it.
What you say makes perfect sense. Which may explain what is obvious rejection from my attempts. Over time, things have soured between us somewhat. I don’t think she’s ever elated to see me, but she’s never really been a bitch about anything either so I totally appreciate her gentle letdowns. Even though I am still so crazy about her, I really just want to be her friend first.
Of course she is beautiful, ravishing, adorable, super cute and extremely particular how she comes to work, I’m really not trying to make it only about sex with her. I would really like to make a more emotional connection first because I’m sure she tires of endless amount of perverts that gawk at her. I definitely don’t want to be in with that bunch.
If you can tell me where you think I went wrong or give me any more positive feedback, I would appreciate it. I know I didn’t play my cards right with her, but I’d still love there to be hope and make up for it.
Thanks for sharing your story with me too. It sounds like you’re in somewhat of a better place now. So I hope you can eventually find that someone you can make an emotional connection with. You seem very intelligent and know what you want. Aren’t going to put up with any of the common man’s bs. Like my LO.
I like that..
MJ,
“But then she would see me and duck out by going another way. Or if she didn’t duck out, she would get on her phone to look busy.
I presented the story in full when I arrived to LwL and many of the replies stated they thought she might be getting freaked out because I don’t ever say anything to her. That she was trying to figure out if I’m a threat to her or not.”
There are men who I’ve been so attracted to, they’ve made me really nervous and a part of me wanted to run when I saw them coming my way. My last LO was one of them. But even then, I forced myself to interact with him. Because a big part of me wanted to interact with him, and I got annoyed with my own shyness.
The only other thing I can think is that she did not want to go further with the flirtation and thus ducked out. She was putting up a boundary.
MJ,
And when I say I got annoyed with my own shyness, I’d go looking for him and start a conversation. If he’d tried to talk to me and I just stood there like a deer in the headlights or if I saw him and walked the other direction. I’d force myself to go find him.
@Marcia,
Thank you for your response. I often wondered if she was just really shy. But still not sure. I never meant to scare her. I kinda am leaning toward your idea of the boundary.
It’s the back and forth staring, that to this day drives this limerence. A year into LE and I’ve got almost nothing. I guess if she wanted to talk, she would. I’m probably wasting my time, but incredibly do not care. Am I pathetic or what?
MJ,
“I guess if she wanted to talk, she would.”
But couldn’t I say the same thing about you? Do you want something to happen with this woman or do you just enjoy the flirtation? Not all flirtations are meant to be acted on, but if you are avoiding other offers, that’s not good. A lot of time can be wasted while limerent.
I’m not really avoiding other offers because the one I was sort of interested in has an SO of about 10 years and I’m not getting up in all that drama. Not only thst, she just doesn’t do much for me anymore. She kinda let herself go and she’s definitely not LO, so my interest level in her is minimal.
MJ,
Get online. I have a friend who is exactly your age and when one option falls through, she has another one lined up. If you’re much over 30 years old, you can’t leave it to chance to meet people naturally. Too many people are off the market.
“She kinda let herself go and she’s definitely not LO, so my interest level in her is minimal.”
Doesn’t matter if neither one is stepping up.
OK so I’m going to throw a bit of a spanner here. I saw a comment (but not sure where now) saying you should just ask her out. Another one said men pursuing is ‘hot’. It is if it’s not pursuit! I was pursued doggedly by my ex. I said ‘no’ about ten times and then gave in. It was a terrible relationship. But then he was highly narcissistic and ‘no’ wasn’t in his vocabulary.
My best relationships have been the ones where I did the asking and gentle pursuing. They were all in different countries (except one) so came to a natural end when I had to leave. The one I had here came to an end when I realised we just weren’t compatible and he put me up on a pedestal and wasn’t real with me for fear of losing me. So he lost me anyway.
Now for a little story and advice for if you decide to tell LO. Do not be ambiguous. Be straight with her. If she does happen to be limerent for you herself, all this staring back and forth means she’s probably terrified of how she feels (like I was). Here’s my little anecdote –
LO and I were in the car together. We’d known each other for six months and he’d just asked me to meet him in another city. He was traveling there slowly by train and I would fly to meet him later. We were friends (with an awful lot of push pull) but he’d introduced me to some new music that I loved right away and a DJ we both loved was playing in the city. I was dying to go see the DJ but was also keen to spend a few days with him I just wasn’t sure if he meant as friends…. or what?
So we’re sitting in the car, I’ve just bought my plane ticket and I don’t remember what I said but we were joking around about something then
LO: that must be why you look the way you do..
ME: hahaha how’s that?
LO: I don’t know all beautiful and that…
ME:
LO: I’m sorry I’m not good at giving compliments. You’ll have to wait while I practice
ME: I don’t like compliments anyway
Yep. That happened.
The only way I would’ve been able to hear it was in written form so I had time to process my overwhelm and figure out how I felt. Years later he did do that but again in a way that I took to be joking. Probably because I had pushed him away so many times. But, as I said, I wasn’t ready to be vulnerable like that. I could only cope with that kind of vulnerability now. Any relationship would have tanked I’m certain of that.
Have you thought of turning inwards and working on yourself first? Then this level of vulnerability won’t feel so scary to you and if it is for her, your confidence in yourself would help her feel safe.
Call Me Cordeila,
“OK so I’m going to throw a bit of a spanner here. I saw a comment (but not sure where now) saying you should just ask her out. Another one said men pursuing is ‘hot’. It is if it’s not pursuit! ”
Yes, pursuit is hot. Sorry. Disagree with you. But asking someone out ONCE, and if they say no … the person drops it and moves on. What you experienced was harrassment. I’m surprised you said yes to that guy.
I’d advise he ask her out to lunch during the work week. It’s pleasant. It’s safe. And if she says yes and it goes well, he can then ask for a proper date outside of work. Maybe to hang out on the weekend. He approaches, he asks out, he gets the number, he picks the place. That’s pursuit. It shows confidence.
Marcia
I agree with you! I just wouldn’t call it ‘pursuit’ if you ask them out only once. It sounds like you’re chasing someone. ‘Pursuit’ is hot if it’s once and clear 😊 like I said, I gently pursued the guys I liked. I directly asked them out.
Confidence to ask someone out is hot and humility to accept a ‘no’ is also admirable.
I eventually said ‘yes’ to my ex because he was a ‘good on paper’ guy, I was getting older and wanted to have kids. Seemed like a good idea at the time 😏
But I was attracted to what I knew from childhood. Now I know better, I can do better.
And now I’m posting on here incessantly. Hope I’m not developing an addiction to this page, too!
Call Me Cordeila,
“humility to accept a ‘no’ is also admirable.”
I don’t know if i’d call it humility so much as accepting boundaries and not being pushy and invasive.
I don’t think I’ve ever had someone ask repeatedly. But I remember one guy who I turned down for a second date. (He asked me over text. I did not keep him waiting for a reply. I thanked him but was clear I didn’t want to go on a second date.)
But after I said no, (I worked with him) he would not even say hello to me. That I think is the humility you were referring to. There was no reason we couldn’t be coridal to each other but he acted like a baby man. A guy in his 40s!
@Cordelia,
I am probably not going to disclose. I’ve read too many horror stories on here and I don’t think it would make her comfortable or like me any better. If I do anything, I think I would just like to compliment her beauty and see how receptive she is after I mention it. If I can keep the conversation flowing, then I’ll consider this venture a success.
There are things about myself that I need to work on. Currently I’m trying to get Therapy going with a local person in my area. They are just dragging their feet at getting back to me to start it. I’m skeptical of therapy but on the advice of others in my circle outside this forum, I think it’s time to give it a try again.
ahhh MJ. I hope you can sort out how you feel. I tried several therapists before finding ‘the one’. We clicked right away and I realise I was wasting time and money with the others. If you’re not sure about therapy, maybe you just haven’t found the right therapist?
I’m just going to leave something here…. This is something that really helped me and I did it all at home on my own. It’s also heaps cheaper than therapy and quite different.
https://shop.lonerwolf.com/shop/?_gl=1*1ep7puw*_ga*NjIzNTk5NDE2LjE2ODk5MTczMjg.*_ga_MM9W42X808*MTY4OTkxNzMyNy4xLjAuMTY4OTkxNzMyNy4wLjAuMA..
Not sure if that link will work but anyway they’re called LonerWolf and they are a bit spiritual/kooky but also have a great sense of humour and recommend taking all advice with a grain of salt. My kind of people. I did a couple of the workbooks and it worked for me.
I’m a working single mum so it’s incredibly hard for me to find time for myself. I suppose writing all of this to you is like writing to my younger self (I’m in my mid-40s so not sure if I’m older than you are) but my younger self wasn’t ready to hear it until my life went to hell in a handbasket! Anyway, I gotta stop posting here so much but I feel invested in your story now! I’ll keep one eye on the page for any updates. Hope it goes well for you…
@ MJ
MJ, please be careful how you approach this with LO if you make a plan to talk to her. Remember that there is some question whether LO is actually interested in you or whether she sees you as a threat. If it is the latter and you approach her and say something that hints sexual advancement you could find yourself in a HR office really fast. Complimenting her beauty sounds nice but is the type of action that might not be appropriate at the workplace among people that don’t have an established relationship.
Why don’t you just focus on simply meeting her. Maybe all this LE tension could be relieved by actually getting to know who she is. There must be a way to do such a thing?
MJ
Along the lines of Speedwagon’s concern you can make the compliment more ambiguous by noticing something about her that maybe different. I’ve done it with LO and many female co-workers in my time, because I genuinely noticed it.
Like we were all standing around at the beginning of the day talking and LO said “well I am going to the bathroom I didn’t have time to do my hair this morning before work” to which I said “I couldn’t tell, looks nice to me”. Now granted that might have been the limerence talking but I couldn’t honestly tell. To me it looked like a messy bun.
LO wore her hair in a ponytail a lot because she would wear ballcaps. And often I would tell her how well she rocked a ballcap. Because I like when women wear ballcaps. I watch my wife mow the lawn cause she’ll wear a ballcap with her ponytail through the back. *woos*
Or something you notice that different that she is wearing. LO dressed more casual than it seems your LO does. So usually she wore sandals or tennis shoes. One day she was wearing some mary janes and some slacks (she usually wore jeans) and I immediately noticed it. “Wow LO whose the lucky guy you’re getting dressed up and pretty for?” She told me she had a court date and that she was leaving early from work and she didn’t want to have to go home and change. But she smiled at the compliment and try to play it down.
All those she seemed to take well and didn’t come off overtly. She either just smiled and laughed or said “thank you” to any of them. I think women take it as a compliment when men notice small things that are different about them.
Forgot all this planning and plotting. Just ask the woman to lunch. I had a guy at my former place of employment work ask me to lunch, and I barley knew him. We had barely spoken.
Yes, it was awkward, but a lot of “first dates” are. We got through it.
It doesn’t appear she’s going to make a move. It’s been a year.
@Cordelia,
Thanks again for your response and for the link. I checked it out.
It looks like its something I “could” consider, down the road. I’m seeing that as being a lazy route for me though, because I could see myself starting something like that, and losing interest fast, if I don’t like it.
I’m glad it works for you. Perhaps I’ll have time for it at some point.
I’m glad you have felt compelled enough to be invested in my story.
Your thoughts about her reactions to me seem the most logical, considering where I believe I’m at with her. Although there is no guarantee. At best, her interest might be minimal. But that’s limerent MJ just being wishful. I appreciate your input though. It makes a lot of sense.
I feel like the moments to interact have to be just perfect and if anybody else is around, it will throw me off. A couple times that has happened, where she’s with a friend, or that other guy I know she hangs out with from time to time. Hell, he might even be her SO, for all I know.
I had an opportunity to buy her Wendy’s in the drive-thru, about 2 months ago and I chickened out. Because I guess I thought for whatever reason, she might think it was a charity move on my part and it might piss her off. So I didn’t.
In hindsight though, I should have done it. The timing really was perfect. And it would have been a sweet thing to do for her. But doggonit, I messed up. Not even God could align another more perfect moment for that to happen.
MJ
Your Wendy’s idea is solid. Especially since you have no barriers. I often bought kolaches, her favorite doughnuts or coffee from her favorite coffee shop. Of course I had to buy the whole office enough so it wouldn’t seem I was favoring her. She was always appreciative being a single mother on one income. If you know what she likes for you I think it would be a good ice breaker. Because you can move forward with her unlike I who couldn’t/should have not. Knowing certain things she likes is a good indication to her that you are paying attention to her and taking the time to remember her likes. I don’t think she would be see it any other way than appreciative.
Though if you go to Wendy’s again can you get me a Baconator with jalapeños? Maybe a Frosty lol
@Adam,
I haven’t tried the Baconator yet but I’ll take your word for it.
It sounds good. I love the all natural lemonade. It’s so good during these summer months.
Thanks for your suggestions. They sound doable too. But I can see myself chickening out again. Always easier said than done with me.
And to add to what you said, LO rocked it in a ballcap too. She came in early on a Saturday last year and I remember I was surprised to see her at her desk so early. But she looked adorable. It was a beige Yankees cap and her hair was long and straight, coming out the back of it. I was smitten as a kitten 😸
@Marcia
“Forgot all this planning and plotting. Just ask the woman to lunch.”
I feel like you read my posts and then either slam your fist on the table or you scream at your screen when you read I’m pussyfootin it around talking to LO.
I know you want me to go and talk to her. Believe me, I know I want to go and talk to her. But its that crippling shyness that gets in the way, every damn time I want to go and do something. I can go over and plan for that perfect moment, just to go meet and see her in the parking lot, and right before I get there, I’ll stop dead in my tracks and say, I can’t do this. What if?..What if?.. What if?..
It’s so crazy the power I give to this Woman and I know she’s only 28. But I just turn to silly putty when I know she’s around. It’s nuts.
@Speedwagon,
Thank you for your concern and suggestion. I made the statement because I know my situation has been dragged out extensively and there is that lingering doubt LO is actually interested. Of course I don’t need HR involved.
I guess I just wanted to remark to her on her beauty because I thought through my doing so, might explain some of my reasoning for being so stunned and shy in her presence. It’s probably not the best idea, but one I considered, just to get it off the ground. Small talk about work is probably better.
With timing and help from the good Lord, my fingers are crossed..
I had started writing a response and was interrupted by child and lost it all. I can’t remember for the life of me what I was writing.
I’m wondering if she smiled at you because you were smiling at her. On another post I talked about how I reciprocate when people smile at me and I don’t know if it’s people pleasing or mirror neurons. Even if I don’t want to, I’ll match their smile. But I don’t initiate it. She might have felt compelled to smile back but didn’t really want to. Just a guess going on what you’ve said about her avoiding you now.
Her staring at you could be like I was doing just to figure out what was going on in my trainer’s head. I observed him with other women just to see if I was imagining things or if he was maybe like that with everyone. But I wasn’t gazing at him with a smile on my face or with adoration. It was just observing with probably a puzzled look or concentration on my face.
To be honest with you, if I was remotely interested in you, I’d be drawn to you. I’d be having conversation. I enjoyed conversation with my LO (I couldn’t stop myself wanting to be near him) and I also enjoyed conversation with my trainer. I left the gym because he was starting to get inside my head. I can be attracted to someone and have great chemistry and know that we don’t have compatibility. I don’t know if I would have developed limerence for him but I wasn’t going to stick around to find out! In other situations where I just find their limerence (or just flirtation) irritating and I’m not attracted to them, I don’t ever seek out conversation, I just avoid them like the plague.
Since your LO can avoid you, and does, perhaps disclosing wouldn’t be wise. Although, for me, I always prefer the truth. No matter what it is. Because when I sense a lie, I feel like I’m going crazy. Nobody likes feeling that way. And this is the problem with limerence. You’re so elated around them it’d be pretty damn hard for them to not sense it in some way.
@Cordelia, .
Thank you so much for your response. You really have given me a new perspective on LO and it is comforting and challenging all at the same time in what route to take next.
Fyi, I was not smiling at her that day. If I remember correctly, I was probably doing my classic deer in headlights gaze at her because thats the effect she has on me. Which also explains why there were times I didnt say anything to her. It’s weird to me how there was always so much staring at each other from behind glass walls, yet upon actually seeing her live, out and about on the floor, in the workplace, how she went out of her way to avoid me. Even when I felt confident to maybe squeeze words out to her, it’s so odd, yet intriguing to me, how she could sense my oncoming approach. Perhaps that’s another reason I feel so attracted to her. Or maybe she is just super shy.. I’d like to think she doesn’t resent me for being so infatuated. But if she doesn’t know anything about limerence, it probably doesn’t matter.
Hi, MJ
Do you know your LO’s name? Do a little research about her, maybe a coworker can help .
Next time you see her leaving work, quickly approach her and call her by her name. Like , hello so and so ——- . That will surprise her that you know her name and probably ask you : how do you know my name? Then you say with a sneaky smile: I did some research…. Just a simple way to establish a conversation. Then you might say: do you mind if I walk with you? If she says yes, then good. Immediately you ask her if she cares to go out for dinner or coffee or a drink. And take it from there. If it works, fine, if not, well now you know the truth.
This I’m saying to you because you’re single and as I understand she’s single too. Never will I advise a married man to do this.
I was very shy and an introvert . I’d like a fellow but wouldn’t dare look at them at all, and pretended I didn’t care at all and avoided them. Just like your LOs behavior, exactly the same way! If a fellow wouldn’t approach me first and be bold I would still be single today.
A little story:
After missing from my hometown many many years I returned married and w children, there were a reunion of family and friends and one fellow said to me: I always liked you. And I said, how could I’ve known if you never said anything? (now I learned) He said he was shy. I kind of secretly liked him then but never showed any interest, was way too shy then. So, just give it a try, be sure of yourself and stop saying ‘she’s out of my league ‘. Drop that attitude, it won’t help . You have to be assertive when dealing with women. We want the man to lead in romance, at least that’s true for me. Don’t act needy or clingy. Dress nicely too. If she dresses nice you have to match her taste …Watch James Bond. Ha! Good luck and courage, always lots of courage!
Misor,
” Just like your LOs behavior, exactly the same way! If a fellow wouldn’t approach me first and be bold I would still be single today.”
I’m going to disagree with this. I am painfully shy around the men I like, but eventually, I get frustrated with my own ineptiude and I push through it and I will approach them, I will talk to them, get a number, ask out. If I am into a guy, he’s going to know it, eventually. If he’s questioning it months down the road, I’m probably not serious.
That being said, I agree with this: “You have to be assertive when dealing with women. We want the man to lead in romance, at least that’s true for me. ”
It is much, much hotter when the man pursues.
Assertive women can be attractive to, for me anyway. One gal that I worked with (not LO way back in my 20’s) she and everyone else in the building knew I had my eye on her. But for some reason I was really intimidated by her. I don’t really know why other than maybe because in fight she could take me. Big amazon of a woman.
Finally she asked me after getting off late one night if I wanted to have some drinks with her. From there on in, for as long as it lasted, I took the lead in the romance because I felt more at ease. The only other two women I dated I perused.
One quite relentlessly. I thought she was wife material and I didn’t want to loose out. I got friendzoned as you kids say. :-/ That didn’t stop her from enjoying the gifts and attention I gave her for a good while before she spoke up about how she felt about me. I don’t begrudge her though. Hopefully she is happy with someone now. Life’s too short for grudges.
@Misor,
Thank you for the suggestions. Yes I know LOs name. I’ve done about as much investigative work on her that I’m going to do. I feel like telling her I did research on her is the equivalent of me saying I’m online stalking her. I don’t think thats the best idea. You never get a second chance to make first impression. It would be ok to say that if I knew her better but not at this stage.
Body language has always told me a lot about LO, so her avoidance of me is questionable. I know when I’ve reached my limit with her.
I agree, MJ. I think telling her you’d researched her and then immediately asking her out the very first time you talked to her would be far too much. You could always say you saw her around and asked someone her name; that is less creepy-stalker IMO. I think you just have to say hi and go from there. Asking about her new job would be a possible non-threatening way to start a conversation. I reckon you’ll know pretty quickly if she’s interested in getting to know you.