I’ve talked before about flirting and how it’s complicated for limerents. It’s been on my mind again.
There’s a real sense of a sea-change in culture at the moment, with #MeToo and Oxfam and Weinstein and etc. etc. drawing out the pent up anger of years of injustice and abuse and mistreatment and offense and discomfort. One of the consequences of this social movement is a closer look at behaviour in the workplace and a realisation that some pretty unpleasant men have been getting away with some pretty unpleasant behaviour for far too long. But another interesting spinoff is that some other people have been getting pretty uncomfortable about the range of behaviours that are being criticised. Knee touching is lampooned. Witch hunts have been mentioned.
Obviously there is a comfortable gulf between flirting and sexual assault, but the less comfortable bit is the big flabby middle of uncertainty where different people draw different lines. I doubt anyone was really under any illusions about whether it’s OK for the boss to grab the secretary’s arse, but what about the manager from one sales team flirting with the deputy sales manager of another team? Some people would be set off blustering about free speech and fascist dictatorships and how they married their deputy and no harm ever came of it, while others would say that you’re at work to work, so get on with your work and leave your flirting to social time.
The other uncomfortable bit is that it seems to be very, very difficult to talk about this stuff at the moment. I am uncomfortable writing this, and have deleted and rewritten some of the preceding words multiple times with the bogeyman of public judgement sitting on my shoulder and alternating between chastising me for my moral cowardice and clutching his pearls about how could I dare to say something that could be construed as victim blaming. So, hiding behind the (probably not terribly solid) pseudonymity of this blog, I’m going to dive in.
In the previous post I talked about the potential minefield that flirting represents to limerents. So from one perspective, less flirting would make their lives easier. But do we want our workplaces to be completely non-sexualised? Do we ban flirting? I’ve been flirted with by colleagues, and it’s made me very uncomfortable. I’ve also been flirted with by colleagues, and it’s been great, because I’ve fancied them too. But then, that was the road that led me to my last limerent episode, which sent my life into chaos, but taught me new and important things about myself that I didn’t know, and really needed to learn. And other people are different from me, amazingly enough, and will process all these sorts of experiences differently from me. And I can’t predict that from looking at them. And a LO can’t really be held responsible for the reaction of a limerent to some harmless flirting. And how are we going to police the “no flirting” rule? Especially when tons of women have experienced the shock of having baseline friendliness over-interpreted as flirting by inexperienced men, and also had the experience of realising that they can use slightly-above-baseline friendliness to scope out whether a man is interested in them while preserving plausible deniability. Maybe we need some rules about what constitutes flirting, because rules about behaviour always make everyones lives better. Having sex in the stationary cupboard? Wildly unprofessional to most people, but if it’s consensual, should it be banned?
I’m throwing out loads of questions here not because I need to know the answers, but because I genuinely don’t know the answers. I’m at a point in my life where the choices are simple for me: I gain almost no benefit from flirting, and am in as low a risk category as you could imagine for suffering sexual harassment or assault. Not to be complacent – shit can always happen – but it is easy for me to just not flirt with anyone and ignore anyone that flirts with me, and keep my mouth shut and my head down whenever the topic comes up.
But I really don’t think the larger situation is simple. I don’t think We have properly decided how We want the terms of interactions between adults in the workplace to be demarcated when it comes to sex. Power differentials are often cited as a cause for concern, and again, most people will agree on the outliers – teachers and pupils, bosses and vulnerable employees – but how big a differential is too big? A lot of people form long term relationships with people they meet at work, and sometimes those people are above them in the hierarchy. Furthermore, I don’t think We even know how to start dealing with the fallout from the current revolution (and revelations), or even how to communicate meaningfully without it degenerating into invective.
Oh well, what a typical bloody tone troll man, whining about how difficult it is to hit on women at work nowadays. Because that’s the other reason why it’s so bloody difficult to talk about this stuff now – the constant assumption of ill-intent. Any anxieties about life being complicated is seen as evidence of thought crime. Everyone should intuitively know where the lines are and not to cross them (even though we don’t talk about them), and if they don’t know them, then it’s obvious they are an abuser and deserve to be shamed. In a strange way, it reminds me of fashionistas: a coterie of people pleased with how woke they are and disdaining anyone who doesn’t wear this season’s certainties.
Well, harrumph. I’m calling bullshit. It’s bloody complicated, because everyone has their own threshold for discomfort, everyone has different degrees of social skills and emotional intuition, everyone has different libidos, and everyone has to live together trying to navigate life in a world full of confusing other people that are very similar to us in important ways but also very different in unpredictable ways. The only way to live together purposefully is to communicate with the people around you honestly and in good faith, and learn from each other by occasionally bumping up against boundaries and risking discomfort. If we don’t make a sincere attempt to investigate the grey areas of sexuality at work, we cede the territory to the abusers (who will use it as cover) and the puritans (who will claim any discomfort equals assault).
So… *cough* in conclusion… Flirting is complicated, but I don’t like bans. I hope the youngsters manage to figure this out.
/rant
I think flirting by married persons with singletons and other married persons just shouldn’t be happening at the work place. If a significant other would raise an eyebrow, or both of them, then not only is there a real chance of finding yourself suddenly single, you could also find yourself on the wrong side of a lawsuit. Plus unemployed.
As for the rest, maybe it can be covered by, “Would it make me uncomfortable to observe someone else doing this – at work?”
Power differentials are real but sometimes they’re very short-lived. Today’s mentor could literally be tomorrow’s subordinate. Mr. Lee and I were colleagues and while he had more experience in the field, I have the degrees. We wed and we both immediately started looking for new jobs so we would never be in a position of shortchanging either party’s career (spouses can’t supervise one another).
Workplaces that encourage situations where flirting and even infidelity is expected should be regarded with alarm. I think it was Michael Milken’s firm that made it such that you were expected to be at work 18 hours a day. There was someone whose wife went into labor, the baby died and he was still expected to show up or be fired. Infidelities were common there too and it was a real snake pit of a place to work. Money was great – until it collapsed. It was a long time ago and maybe it wasn’t Milken setting the tone, but I do remember reading about the corporate culture of some then-big firm and this was an example of it. Maybe it was Steve Wynn. Anyway, it helps to know the culture of your employer.
Talk about corporate culture…. http://fedline.federaltimes.com/2009/11/17/the-nrc-dating-service/
It caused quite a ripple when it appeared and we heard the guy that said it left the government soon after.
I was running a meeting. One of the women in the group, who could have been a credible threat, but didn’t show a hint of glimmer, said something I don’t remember.
I came back with, “What am I going to do with you?”
She came back with, “What do you want to do with me?”
The look on the other women’s faces was priceless. The men were all smirking.
See, if I had been her I would have said, “Promote me!”
But the story wouldn’t have been half as funny. Well played Scharnhorst, well played.
Ooh good case study. So here I could see the responses ranging from “Ha, she and Sharnhorst are hilarious! This place is fun.” to “God that’s so inappropriate. Maybe I should complain to HR.”
So, I guess I’m leaning towards “let everyone think what they will”, and drawing the “HR line” much closer to overt harassment.
I think flirting by married persons with singletons and other married persons just shouldn’t be happening at the work place.
So this is the heart of what I mean. In my view, it shouldn’t really be happening anywhere – but I’m also not comfortable with the idea that my moral preference should necessarily be imposed on society. Same problem with the “would it make me uncomfortable?” metric.
I’m not attacking this perspective – I quite genuinely find this question complicated. It’s one of those issues that seems to lie at the intersection of lots of the principles that I’ve slowly learned to orient my life around: personal freedom, individual autonomy, moral integrity, liberty, openness of emotion, taking responsibility for your actions, and – without wanting to sound too saccharine – that the world needs more affection and less aggression.
No doubt I’m overthinking it, but such is my burden…
PS. Any workplace that encourages flirting and infidelity is toxic as hell!
We were in no position to affect each other’s respective career paths.
Something about this that relates to limerence:
We worked on several projects together and got to know each other. She was divorced with kids about the same age as my kids. We’d occasionally meet for coffee or have lunch. Always during working hours. We had a lot in common. She was really easy to be around. Again, not the faintest hint of glimmer. My wife was aware that I was working with her.
She took a job in a different part of town. We stayed in touch via email. I was going to be in her part of town, so I asked my wife if she was ok having dinner with my former co-worker. My wife okayed it without blinking an eye.
Since I wasn’t limerent for my former co-worker, I wasn’t broadcasting anything to my wife. That woman never got inside my head.
Meeting a local woman after work, who was a suitable candidate, raised no alarm with my wife but a woman I never met, who lived 2000 miles away, but who I was limerent for, did.
That was an interesting post as I found myself in a very awkward situation at work. In a nutshell: my ex-boss told me in our performance conversation that I am doing a good job and all, but if I wanted to get promoted, I would need “sponsors”, senior people that basically vouch for me and say yeah, I know her too, she’s doing a good job. I thought I had quite good connections and “am known” to the management team and other senior stakeholders due to the nature of my job and my interactions with them. My ex-boss told me that they know who I am, know my name and greet me in the hallway, but they don’t know me enough. I should do some more networking, meet them for lunches and coffees and promote myself better.
Well, since I am trying to get over LO and have a huge void not spending coffees and lunches with LO anymore, I did just that. I was also pleasantly surprised when a guy from my department’s management team sent me an email asking if I wanted to go for lunch (this is no red flag as the mgmt team does reach out to get to know their employees if they have been identified as key talent for example, so I was actually very happy about it). We had a few lunches, one in about every 2-3 months, good talks (non personal and absolutely non sexual, other than the occasional talk about his kids, my kids, schooling system etc. we grew up in the same area, went to the same high school, have common interests and lived in the same country abroad, so naturally lots of stuff to talk about.
One day though, out of the blue he texts (!) me a question asking me whether I am open for a casual sexual relationship outside our marriages. I did not see that one coming. I first pushed back harshly (no I am not open for that) then back tracked as all of a sudden I thought shit, that guy is so senior he can really screw my career (he’s in no direct line above me anymore, he was in my previous job and would have influenced my promotion, but since I switched internally, he may interact now with people above me but has no say anymore). After some more indecent texts from him, I thought to make my view clear just to be sure he understands and told him that I have no interest in any sexual relationship whatsoever and I hope that we can continue a professional relationship at work. Needless to say, last time I accidentally saw him in the halls, he immediately looked away and darted off in the other direction. I guess he won’t be one of my “sponsors” anymore.
I was extremely disappointed (to loop it back to the blog post above) that I guess from the beginning, he was never interested to get to know me in a professional way or saw me as a key talent. I was told to network more as this is a key requirement to get promoted, yet as a women I feel you can’t do the same as a men as let’s face it, senior positions are still occupied largely by men. I am not doing anything different from my male colleagues, yet have to be extra careful not to give the impression of being sexually interested (I really have no clue what made that guy disclose, I did and said nothing that would lead to such an assumption, if I did I really wasn’t aware. Well that bridge burnt now… Worst is that I felt embarrassed and ashamed, when I haven’t done anything wrong. But I am now definitely more cautious and look for any signs and red flags.
I don’t think that’s a follow-up on your leading him on, I think that’s sexual harassment in the workplace. You should definitely report him for inappropriate conduct.
Did he know you were trying to get promoted, get sponsors? If so, this could be extra cause for a complaint as he thought, because you needed something from him, he could use you and manipulate you.
No, he didn’t know explicitly, but honestly, it’s not that far-fetched to assume I am networking. He knows I am ambitious and a bit fed up with not getting ahead (I am working part-time, it just takes longer).
I did talk to social counsel at work (not reporting him, but asking for advice how to handle the situation) the lady is under professional secrecy.
I kept screenshots of everything, and wanted to have that “unofficial record” with social counseling, should it ever be his word against mine I have written proof that he initiated it, and proof (with social counseling) that it made me feel uncomfortable and was by no means wanted in anyway.
I don’t want to officially file a complaint as I don’t want people to know about it. Whether I am right or wrong, people talk, and something always sticks. I don’t want my name associated with anything like this. I also don’t want to blow it out of proportion.
Right, I see now. Hopefully it never comes to that.
This is obviously unprofessional behaviour on his part (hardly needs mentioning!) but in particular:
That’s the point at which this went from “questionable conduct” to “probable harassment” in my view. But it sounds like you’ve handled it like an absolute pro, Sarah!
Unfortunately, these kinds of jerks exist everywhere and power brings out the worst in them. Finding a good mentor/sponsor is a diplomatic challenge – sexual harassment is one of the worst offences, but over the years I’ve had mentors stab me in the back (i.e. promise support but then undermine my case) and heard of other mentors who have taken credit for a mentee’s work, and even request they do things the mentor knew to be illegal. Dodging the shitlords seems to be part of professional life, sadly.
Well. Flirting at work. My current story is exactly that. I was living my life fully two months ago, when one of my colleagues increased the low-intensity flirting that he had been doing for the past two years. We have nothing in common. He saw me as a challenge and decided to unabashedly flirt with me. I was convinced this behavior was extinct in 2023. But not everyone is or wants to be woke. It still puzzles me how he thought it would be ok with me, the feminist, progressive controlling one… And he was right. His sweet respectful flirting intensified and I flipped over. From being ice cold, to openly reciprocating with him. Now we are in a platonic relationship. We are both married and this won’t go any further than seeing us for coffee and texting about how much we like each other. BUT. Here comes the fun. I am limerent as hell. He is not. And this is why I find myself here. Looking for consolation because after the glimmer, when it’s starting to naturally fade away for him while (drum roll… I am at the peak of my limerence. Damn it. So I am here to read the soothing words of Dr L and to read how I need to stop ruminating and having reveries. I wonder if writing this defeats that purpose because it is giving me relief. But I need to deprogram my limerent brain and I know how difficult it is. So I am pretty angry at myself while grateful for the fun and thrill these weeks have been. I think about that movie, “Eternal sunshine over the spotless mind” about a business firm that wiped away memories for suffering limerents. It was brilliant. I wish in all seriousness that medication could help. Depressed people, anxious people, psychotic patients, they all have medication to make them feel better in their crises. Limerents do not. My objectove for this weekend is to do some self discipline and not indulge in rumination or reveries which, at this stage, are giving me withdrawal relief. I, fortunately, I am not languishing and have energy to do things. My recipe: read fiction, exercise, be with others, fill up your time as much as you can during the crisis, and good luck to us all. Sorry about the digression. Flirting in the office should be handled with a lot of care.
Hey FL, welcome to the co-worker LE club!
“Eternal sunshine over the spotless mind”… the instant cure for limerence, if only that was possible.
LOs moving on emotionally when we are still drowning in neurochemicals feels just awful. How dare they be OK when we are not!
Sounds like you have excellent self awareness and have caught this fairly early which bodes well for you. Finding purpose in life, and finding other things for the mind to dwell on is the best approach I think.
Wishing you well on your climb out of the limerence pit.
I had no idea that’s what that movie was about. I guess I’d better check it out. In my old age I don’t give much new cinema a chance.
“I wonder if writing this defeats that purpose because it is giving me relief.”
I wonder that myself too with my limerence. It will be a year June 3 since I have seen LO with NC. That she initiated herself moving on to another job. I want to move on and be present in my life and marriage. But I want to also hope to help others not fall into the same rabbit hole I did with a co-worker. Dear Marcia that posts here has commented that coming here for her is a double edged sword. And some days I very much agree with her.
“Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind” is a great movie but I found it depressing.
My favorite character is Kirsten Dunst. IMO, she’s the only character in the movie worth feeling sorry for. To me, the rest of them are unsympathetic.
Definitely a great movie. The first time I watched it was with my wife shortly after we’d moved in together and were madly in love with each other. I remember crying so hard during the scenes when Jim Carrey’s character realizes he made a mistake consenting to the procedure and is desperately trying to hold on to his memories of his beloved, but to no avail – in my mind at that time, I imagined myself dying some day and trying to cling on to my wife’s memories as I slipped into the void… quite a thought for a 23 year old guy! (I always got the same feelings from Death Cab’s “I Will Follow You Into the Dark” and Jason Isbell’s “If We Were Vampires”)
Anyway, I actually discussed this movie with my LO a few months ago. She’d seen it years ago and I reminded her of the plot. At that time, we were both feeling heartbroken about how strongly we felt for each other but having to face the fact that there was no plausible future for us together. I asked her if she would undergo the procedure if it was possible to erase me and our relationship from her mind. She immediately said absolutely not – that she knew the heartbreak would eventually end, but that she’ll always treasure the time we spent getting to know each other and would never want to lose those memories. That felt good to hear.
LIS,
“I asked her if she would undergo the procedure if it was possible to erase me and our relationship from her mind.”
Kind of a loaded question. How would you have responded if she’d said “Yes?” What if she’d said, “Yes, the thought of your memory is just too painful.” You win any way it goes.
If somebody asked me that question, my response would depend on who’s asking.
I think my answer to most people would be “No.” For a few others, I’d add “I wouldn’t want to give you the satisfaction.”