Time for another visit to the LwL virtual coffeehouse.
I’ve been away for most of this week, without much access to emails, so naturally that corresponded with a big burst of correspondence.
The cause was a new feature in the Observer magazine (which is part of the Guardian media group), all about my own experiences with limerence.
So, apologies for my slow response time to all the new readers who have been in touch with questions – I’m working through emails now and will be caught up soon. It seems to be a weirdly common phenomenon that stepping away from the desk for a while coincides with a sudden burst of publicity.
Anyway, while I catch up, the floor is open for all you lovely folks to chat.
As a conversational starting point: one thing on my mind at the moment is the value of therapy for limerence. Does anyone have any experience of therapy helping, and what form that help took?
I’ve been following some therapists on X lately, and am struck by the debate about AI agents replacing real people. To me, AI therapy feels like a really bad idea at an emotional level, but I can’t exactly articulate why.
The X therapists are united that the human connection between therapist and client is critical to success, and irreplaceable by AI by definition.
I have to confess that there also seems to be a bit of special pleading going on – “good therapists have an indefinable je ne sais quoi that is the difference between masking symptoms and a lasting cure”.
That argument often seems to prompt some status-hierarchy puffery too – “well maybe AI could replace some of the low-level behavioural stuff, but not True therapy with a gifted practitioner”.
There is also the perennial issue of a client responding to this ineffable human connection by becoming limerent for their therapist, somewhat spoiling the therapeutic relationship.
Then again, I have no difficulty in believing that people could become limerent for a personally tailored AI agent too, if it was sophisticated enough. Especially if you could design your own avatar to give the agent a face. Hell, in a nightmare scenario, you could even give your endlessly patient, always-available, non-judgmental, empathetic personal therapist your LO’s face.
As you can tell, I’m still trying to figure this all out, so any insights for the community about therapy for limerence are much appreciated!
Finally, a last reminder for anyone in the Nottingham UK area: my book launch event is happening next Weds (23rd April) at Five Leaves bookshop. Free entry, free drinks, free Q&A with me (led by my wife). Sign up if you’d like to come along:
I have no experience with therapy for limerence. I have, however, had experience with therapists who seemed unqualified for the issues at hand. I have had therapists who seemed to make the problems worse, due to an incorrect approach.
The idea of AI therapy is terrifying. This puts all the burden on the patient. Is the patient discerning enough to know if things are going sideways? How would the AI know how to make a correction?
I want to change the subject and discuss something off-topic. I hope it’s not too controversial. A neighbor just invited me to Easter church services with her and I politely declined. It’s Calvary Chapel, which is way too extreme for me.
I almost got physically ill when I heard one of their pastors say something horrible about gay people. LO is gay, my best girlfriend is gay, and two of my children are gay. I fail to understand how such “loving, Christian” people can be so hateful to others.
I didn’t go into detail with the neighbor, but I told her I had been to one of their services once and didn’t like it.
Good for you, Norma. Totally agree. You are not beholden in anyone to do anything you don’t want to or don’t feel comfortable.
Let them get on with their wholly un-Christian behaviours. You’re better off out if it.
JMMO
To Justme:
I don’t understand why people can’t see the enormous hypocrisy. You could drive a truck through it.
I will say one thing. The last time I had an encounter with this church and their anti-gay rhetoric, I got very upset and contacted LO. He talked me down off the ledge. As a gay man dealing with this stuff for 60+ years, he has excellent coping skills.
Now I find myself upset again over the same subject, but I am not tempted to text LO. I am handling it fine by myself, and that’s progress!
To Norma
Wow. I bet you don’t even realise how powerful that sounds.
Yes they are imbeciles. I was raised catholic, but no longer have the slightest interest. Let’s not even get on to half of the stuff that’s gone on in that church!
Your power and determination regarding LO is inspiring to behold, especially at my stage. Thank you for sharing.
Have a peaceful evening
JMMO
To Justme:
I was raised Catholic and so was LO. Neither one of us has any interest. I resent the time I spent at Catholic school, naively believing everything I was told. Ugh.
👏
Yeah, I’ve heard things about Calvary Chapel….They made it onto those blogs that exposed abusive churches back in the 2010s. Best to avoid.
Of course, as for LGBTQ+ issues, most of the churches have a similar view. But some are more progressive, like the UCC. I almost left my own church because of preaching that got too into culture wars and politics. But we have a different priest now.
To Serial Limerent:
You just reminded me of something. I did attend part of a large outdoor service they had a while back, and I noticed something that struck me as odd. The way the congregants were looking at each other, it was almost the same as the way I look at LO.
I asked my neighbor about it because I thought it seemed creepy. This was long before I met LO. She said it was “Jesus’s love” that made them act that way.
They can look at each other that way, unless somebody turns out to be gay, I guess?
I just checked and yes, some people think it’s a cult.
To Serial Limerent:
You got me curious, so I went and read up a little. Gee, it’s worse than I thought. What’s weird is that my friends who go there are such nice people otherwise.
I’ll just add to this that organized religion is run by humans. And humans are far from ever being perfect. As a terrible Catholic and an even more horrible Christian, I know our faith has had its share of problems. I just think a lot of people like to spew their faith beliefs because it makes them feel more superior. Doing exactly what they should not be doing.. Judging..
They are Hypocrites! As the good book says, “First remove the beam of wood from your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye!”
To MJ:
You make excellent points. As a failed Catholic and Christian myself, I prefer to keep my damn mouth shut and just try to be a good person.
At the risk of going on a rant, I was speaking to a DIFFERENT neighbor yesterday, who also invited me to HER church today, who didn’t care at all about the immigrants being illegally deported to El Salvador. These people are probably not Boy Scouts, but everyone deserves to get a hearing in court and to have their cases decided by a judge.
Her blind faith in the president is every bit as concerning as her resentment of everyone who is different from her.
@Norma Desmond.
As a homosexual male, I would say this to you: I am not morally outraged by the way society mistreats me, so there is no need for you to be morally outraged on my behalf. 🙂
Trust me, darling, I stopped being bothered by (real and/or perceived) injustice a long time ago.
Actually, I have even been known to troll (lovingly and good-naturedly, of course) my gay male friends on the issue of alleged social exclusion. (They know I am only playing with them). One of my gay mates was complaining about the rhetoric he heard in Catholic school. And I was like: “It’s Adam and Eve, mate. Not Adam and Steve!” Needless to say, he almost threw me out of the house. 😜😇🙄😆
At least I didn’t say the Sapphic version of the same line, which is even funnier: “Excuse me, Miss. But I think it’s Adam and Eve – not Madam and Eve!” 😁
Christians don’t hate gay people. Christians are sometimes fearful of gay people. Fear is a totally different emotion and mindset to hate (although on the surface they may appear to be the same). The correct response to fear is compassion. 😉
You know, your limerent episode may not be about sexuality at all, even though your LO is gay. Your LE may be about your own feelings of compassion toward all people you believe (rightly or wrongly) are different or excluded or disenfranchised in some way. You mustn’t assume that people feel bad just because you feel bad. I’m a homosexual male, and I don’t feel bad about anything. I just enjoy taking the mickey out of people – gay and straight alike. Look at Limerent Emeritus and me. I give him a hard time, and he just loves the attention because he’s an extrovert. (Also, I genuinely like/respect him). 😇
Let me tell you a true story. There was once an American heiress. She was a white woman (but, of course!). She fell madly in love with a black man. This was back in a period of history where marriage between blacks and whites in America wasn’t accepted. In other words, the heiress couldn’t marry the man she loved.
How did the story end? The heiress broke up with her black boyfriend. But she did afterwards go on to develop a passionate interest in the Civil Rights Movement, fighting for the liberation of all black Americans. So something very beautiful came out of her infatuation. She was able to transform her ardour for one man into interest in improving the lives of an entire group of people. I guess she found her own socially-conscious version of “purposeful living”? 🙂
About AI:
A short background to my story is that my LO was very ill willed (a fantast who lied about everything: name, age, location, education, profession and above all forgot to tell me he is married with 3 underage kids, just to begin with).
In contrast to manny limerents here, who never disclose, I had an actual 2,5 months relationship with that person and I unfortunately fell for him (or better said: with picture of himself he ‘painted’ for me, as everything was a lie). As the time progressed and things sometimes didn’t add up, I asked all the right questions. Which, as consequence, had that my LO went back to his continent without telling me and literally ghosted me, leaving only one short, nothing-saying e-mail behind. In retrospective, that ‘act of ghosting’ was what had spun me into limerence (the obstacle). It caused me excruciating pain and heartbreak, Takotsubo cardiomyopathy, worry as if something bad had happened to him (I knew absolutely nothing). He was gone and I couldn’t make any sense of his short mail. The ugly truth emerged several months later, giving me perspective.
I am now almost 3 years further and luckily OK. Completely indifferent to that person. Once started, limerence unfortunately had to ‘run it’s natural course’, so I had to ‘sit my time’ out. I gad much difficulties recognizing what is happening with me (limerence), let stay finding a therapist familiar with the concept of limerence. In order to cope, I’ve red tons of literature on the subject of limerence (incl yours and Tenov’s book), but also on other related subjects (like grief, abandonment, coping, self-help, moving on etc). I moved countries and started my life elsewhere, starting fresh, submerging myself into difficulties and literally forcing myself to stand up and fight, occupy myself.
And it worked.
Bit by bit I got where I wanted to be.
The process of self-discovery brought many benefits. Like you, I don’t think limerence is a mental disease. Or that I am in any aspect abnormal bc I experienced it. It underlined the chemical/biological background of (once started, you cannot simply ’reverse’ the chemicals in your brain and body: a balance has to be found, but it takes long time to heal) It highlighted some underlying, unprocessed issues (ptsd from relationship from 25 years ago, that I wasn’t aware of) and gave me direction as to what I need to work on. I came out of it as a better, more self-aware person and with better boundaries, in all aspects of life. I came out also as a very optimistic person: very much happy that I got rid of burden of limerence and confident that I can steer and conquer my inner demons.
So basically all turned out good, considering the circumstances, and it is not that I needed some kind of closure. (I never want to see that person again!)
However, there still was that one e-mail, that I never understood. I mean I understood he is cutting me off (basically all I needed to know), but I didn’t understand all the vague sentences he had built around.
And then the ChatGPT entered!
With Frank and Brenda, conversational analyst.
What a blessing!
So I have ‘fed it’ to it.
I first wrote the context (like for you above). And then pasted a copy of that email. Asking Frank and Brenda to make sense of it, given the context.
Let me tell you, Frank and Brenda gave me a very good and elaborate interpretation of that mail!
Brought me some new insights. Disclosed a very educated, polite spoken (but still!) manipulation, that somehow skipped my attention. Probably because I was in such a shock and pain. Or maybe because English is my 3rd language so (shocked me) I couldn’t pick all the right nuances.
Frank and Brenda exceeded all my expectations. It gave me better, good weighted explanation, than the therapist. I learned a lot from it.
In hind sight I shouldn’t have been surprised: Frank and Brenda is a conversational analyst after all.
There are many things I liked from their reply, worth quoting, but this message is too long already.
This is my 5ct about AI
Thank you for reading.
I know some people yesterday (if they caught it) might have been triggered by my use of the word “strumpet” (an affectionate and non-judgemental word to me). My use of this word was/is deliberate, because it feeds into the key point I want to make today regarding therapy. 😉
When I used the word “strumpet”, I did not mean that women (married or otherwise) struggling with limerence are strumpets. Nor did I mean that men (married or otherwise) struggling with limerence are “gentlemen strumpets”. The word choice wasn’t meant to shame or belittle anyone. The point I wanted to make was this: a married woman struggling with limerence (for a man who isn’t her husband) might sometimes feel as if she is a strumpet even though she clearly isn’t. (E.g. she may have no sincere desire to embark on an affair with her LO, and is puzzled by the strength of her attraction to a man she knows only slightly).
Now let’s change the sexes, so female readers don’t feel like I’m singling them out for moral censure. Let’s say we have a man. Let’s say this man is a married man. Let’s say this man is limerent for a woman who isn’t his wife. Let’s say this man is so troubled by his own infatuation that he goes to a therapist and tells the therapist everything.
Last but not least, let’s say this therapist isn’t a very good therapist, but still provides this response which one could expect from any empathic human being: “I’m sorry, mate. I really don’t see what the problem is. You’re not a cheater. You haven’t engaged in any behaviours that any reasonable person would regard as cheating. No boundaries have been crossed and no red flags have been raised. Even your wife isn’t particularly upset with you when you informed her about the infatuation just to be on the safe side. Why are you so hard on yourself?”
Our married man in limerence cries out: “No! You don’t understand! I know I’m not a cheater. I know I haven’t engaged in behaviours that any reasonable person would define as cheating. I know I have no intention of betraying my wife, my wife whom I love dearly. However, in my heart of hearts, I still feel like a cheater – or a gentleman strumpet, if you prefer. Why do I FEEL like a cheater?”
And this, my friends, is the paradox that lies right at the heart of limerence – individuals in limerence, regardless of sex, feel AS IF they are cheating even if they aren’t cheating. They feel as if they are doing something wrong and shameful and disgusting.
Is this shame “false shame”? Is this guilt “false guilt’? Should the man/woman in limerence seek out therapy for “neurotic false guilt” and “neurotic false shame”? Should the therapist attempt to provide therapy for misguided emotions inspired by neuroticism? Or is the guilt/shame so often experienced by the limerent important signals (from the self to the self) that something isn’t quite right? 🤔
My motive for writing the above screed is to explain why limerence (to most of the people actually in the thick of it) isn’t just some little problem or quirk that can be swept under the carpet. Limerence subjectively feels like a BIG PROBLEM to the people who actually have it.
Moving onto the topic of different kinds of therapy, personally, I doubt the benefit of AI therapy. The only benefit of AI therapy, as far as I can see, is anonymity i.e. people may be too embarrassed to seek help from a real human being. Apparently, from what I’ve heard, one can manipulate AI technology to tell one anyone one wants to hear. (It’s all a matter of asking the right questions). So AI technology could inadvertently reinforce one’s worst limerence-fuelled delusions. E.g. “Yes, my LO loves me!” “Yes, I should disclose!” “Yes, my marriage was always bad and I should abandon it and move across oceans to be with LO!” 🤣
Having said that, human therapy comes with its own glitches. As Dr. L suggests, one could become limerent for a really amazing therapist who seems to understand one’s limerent pain. One could just as easily become disillusioned with therapy and therapists altogether, feeling that no one truly understands what limerence is, since it is a topic that is very hard to put into words…
It has been said that most of the healing that takes place in therapy comes about because of the warm and supportive relationship which evolves between therapist and client. Sometimes, magical words of wisdom fall out of a therapist’s mouth, and people are instantly helped. Generally, no or very few magical words of wisdom fall from therapists’ mouths. (Therapists are just people, too). It’s the therapeutic relationship and not mere words which aid folk in the long run.
Actually, it was Dr. Ramani (yes, she of three zillion YouTube videos on narcissism fame) who made this observation about therapy (if I remember correctly). Can I just take a moment to say that I absolutely adore Dr. Ramani (in a totally non-limerent way, of course)? I don’t mind admitting that I have watched at least two zillion of Dr. Ramani’s three zillion videos on narcissism. (Purely for entertainment value. I have zero interest in curing my own narcissism). 🤣🤣
Not only have Dr. Ramani and I grown old together, we have grown fat together. She is a wonderfully warm, deeply intelligent, and extraordinarily sensitive woman. Most importantly, over the years, her weight gain has kept pace with my own weight gain, and that is something I truly admire in a woman. 😜😇😉
No, no, I am just teasing. Dr. Ramani isn’t fat. Dr. Ramani is womanly in terms of her stature – exactly as a woman of her age should be. (Genetics determine standard differences in body composition between the sexes). I know Dr. Ramani would not be offended by my fat joke as Dr. Ramani is not a narcissist. Dr. Ramani is the complete opposite of a narcissist. A narcissist, however, would be offended by my fat joke. Non-narcissists are not offended by fat jokes and happily make fat jokes, usually about themselves. (I know. I have a whole family of middle-aged aunts who bewail the fact they keep getting mysteriously wider by the year).
For anyone interested, Dr. Ramani actually made a video available on YouTube about the role limerence may play in narcissistic relationships. In the video, she freely and most graciously admits she didn’t know much about limerence, and had to read up on the topic to do the video. She also offered the very interesting thought that “infatuation [in her own view] is ‘always bad’ because infatuation ‘takes one out of life’.” I do not agree with Dr. Ramani’s view on infatuation. I do not disagree with Dr. Ramani’s view on infatuation. However, that is certainly one tasty little gobstopper of an idea to suck on if one ever has the time… 🙂
And people think I don’t pay attention! 🙄😆🙏😎
To Sammy:
Thank you for using the word “strumpet.” I am American and don’t get to hear such interesting words nearly enough.
@Norma Desmond.
“Thank you for using the word “strumpet.” I am American and don’t get to hear such interesting words nearly enough.”
You’re very welcome. 🙂
It’s a minor improvement on some of the other alternatives I’ve heard tossed around LwL in the past couple of years. 😆
“Limerence (to most of the people actually in the thick of it) isn’t just some little problem or quirk that can be swept under the carpet. Limerence subjectively feels like a BIG PROBLEM to the people who actually have it.”
@Sammy,
Agree with you 100++% here friend. More good Wisdom from you..
It’s that same kind of mindset I have where something about LO to me deep down feels so incredibly real, like there was something between us. When it was nothing but a fantasy I made up in my head. Nothing close ever actually happened. Which often brings me to tears because I wanted it to be real. Isn’t that nuts?
(“I have a whole family of middle-aged aunts who bewail the fact they keep getting mysteriously wider by the year.”)
Thank you for making me laugh tonight. I sorely needed it..
Middle-aged Aunts.. 🤣🤣
@MJ.
“Agree with you 100++% here friend. More good Wisdom from you..
It’s that same kind of mindset I have where something about LO to me deep down feels so incredibly real, like there was something between us. When it was nothing but a fantasy I made up in my head. Nothing close ever actually happened. Which often brings me to tears because I wanted it to be real. Isn’t that nuts?”
Lucy Bain would say LOs “light us up like Christmas trees” simply because they’re a perfect match for our own unmet needs. Her solution is we’re supposed to meet our own unmet needs and limerence is no longer necessary.
A hopeless romantic might say: “I’ve never felt this way about anyone. I feel amazing highs whenever I interact with him/her. This must be what ‘true love’ or ‘soul mates’ or ‘destiny’ feels like. And I think it’s really cruel that the world, or whatever XYZ forces, is not letting us be together.”
Lucy Bain’s view again – there isn’t actually meant to be a limerent component in romantic relationships. The limerence just causes too much grief/internal turmoil. Romantic love without limerence is possible, and positively healthy! Forget about all this limerence nonsense!
Other so-called experts on limerence – limerence is about “being in love with longing”. Getting with LO doesn’t slake the longing, or prevent longing for new LOs. The limerent actually wants to be in a state of longing, because longing itself is prized. (Don’t know if this is true or not).
Lucy Bain’s likely response: dopamine is the pursuit chemical and not the pleasure chemical. So yes, in theory, people could get addicted to “chasing”???
There is a point in limerence I think, at least for some people, where it becomes an undeniable problem – an undeniable problem in the sense that one can’t eat properly, can’t sleep properly, struggles to work, struggles to study, shirks responsibility, avoids friends, and can’t think of anything except LO. When people reach that point, they want a cure. But maybe they make some small improvement in their ability to cope and suddenly they don’t want a cure anymore. One step forward, two steps back.
Oh my gosh, I had so much anger while in limerence, and I’m not naturally an angry person at all. I’m very tranquil – like a cow, really. I think the anger stemmed from not being able to escape the intrusive thoughts. Also, in hindsight, most of the intrusive thoughts I had were irrational. I.e. I seemed to get attached to ideas that were/are plainly untrue, and even though I knew at the time they were untrue, I couldn’t let them go…
I got jealous of public figures like royals and celebrities, for crying out loud! (Is she thinner than me? Can she afford nicer outfits? I wonder how I’d look with tattoes? Or maybe an eyebrow ring? Why does everyone love so-and-so and not me?) I can understand if people say they want to scream and scream and never stop screaming, because they can’t escape the internal pain. It’s horrifying (and hugely humiliating) to not be able to stop thinking about someone. One definitely does feel as if one is going “nuts”.
Like you, I believed there was a deep connection between my LO and I, because I could literally feel the deep connection whenever we were together in person. It’s like we were swimming in glitter or something. Now I know the “deep connection” was just him making me feel high, which isn’t actually a deep connection at all. (At least not from his end). Also, I sorely doubt that I ever made him feel high. Seems a bit unfair that I got to feel high and he didn’t. I’m sure he’d be annoyed if he found out.
One of the best songs about limerence I think is Chris Isaak’s “Wicked Game”:
What a wicked game to play to make me feel this way
What a wicked thing to do to let me dream of you
What a wicked thing to say, you never felt this way
What a wicked thing to do to make me dream of you
But, of course, it’s futile to blame LO for our own personal “brain malfunctions”. Not that we are strictly to blame either.
Oh my God it is about limerence, isn’t it? Now I have to listen to the original and the HIM cover.
I don’t think I’ve ever known true romantic love.
I’ve played Wicked Game a lot over the past couple of years. It really fits when your LO has been encouraging your limerence.
Hi all. I’m new here, and after taking the limerence test, I offer my condolences to everybody because this absolutely sucks.
I figured out my glimmer, and I call it the Rocky syndrome, because she’s usually slightly quiet, slightly plain, and appears to possibly need ‘rescuing’ from her ‘boring’ life – like Adrienne.(funny, as I’ve never even seen Rocky 1 as a child)
Welcome Biff
In a way I’m sorry that you’re here, but glad that you’ve joined us. I’ve been here about a month, and I can honestly say that this forum has made such a difference.
Please feel free to post and share your thoughts and updates. There will be no judgement, but plenty of advice, support and encouragement.
Would you like to wager a little more about your LO/LE? As much as you like, when you like.
Best wishes
Justmeandmyobsessions
Thank you. The more I think about it, the more embarrassed I become. It’s been about 30 years or so since my first LO, and over 25 years NC. I guess I tend to have a LE every 2-3 years or so. This time was a little different, as I was genuinely concerned something might have happened to her in the past 5 years. If she wasn’t such a nice person, or if she got married(I haven’t seen any proof and I’m not going to go looking) it would be easier like at least 2 other LOs I’ve been able to leave in the past (one was just an overall bad experience and my SO at the time found out, the other was an extreme narcissist wolf in sheep’s clothing that i genuinely believe was a psychopath).
On top of this, LO1 is possibly prone to limerence herself or similar relationship/ attachment issues, I’m in the best shape of my life and I’m a completely different person than the awkward boy she met. This all feeds into the addiction of a delusional fantasy of something, in all liklihood, I would get bored of quickly, if not be incredibly disappointed by.
After coming to terms with cptsd, now I’m normally so happy and easy going when the LE doesn’t hit.
I realized this latest LE began after watching a film called Somewhere in Time, where the main character, played by Christopher Reeve, manifests going back in time 70ish years to be with a woman he sees in a photograph. I suppose it kick started some fantasy about me going back in time, which inevitably led to thoughts of LO1 and a life of endless validation.
I just remembered I had a lot of success using EMDR on myself for cptsd last year.
I’m going to try waving my finger in front of my face throughout the day. Not a big believer in ‘impossible’ so I refuse to believe unhealthy limerence is for life.
I feel a bit better after doing emdr eye movements throughout the day. No ruminations, fantasizing or picturing LO beside me. Just sadness.
🍅
I know you love a good dream analysis. So – in trying to find some sense and light in what has turned into a very heavy ‘processing and regret’ spell for me – I am going to share a couple of weird dreams from the last too nights that I think relate to my (slow and painful) limerence recovery process.
In the first, I went to MFF’s family home (where she lived in the dream with her parents – not anything like the reality) to feed a dog that lived outside the house. It seemed this was part of a regular morning ritual. I heard noise inside the house, panicked at being discovered, somehow got into their house and hid in a bed (not MFF’s bed – I was on my own). Then her mother (who I have never met IRL but I can visualise a clear picture of in the dream) caught me there. She was nice about it and seemed not surprised to see me, but just told me to leave quietly before anyone else saw me. I did.
The dream then fast forwards to being at work. MFF was in a group of people I was chatting to. She’d changed her hair colour and looked attractive but sad. I was on the periphery of a group she was talking to (including other real people we know). I went over her and said “I’m coming over to say I’m going” (in the dream, going meant going off to do work). She said “you were over here anyway” as if I hadn’t needed to do/say it.
I went off. We were in a work building but not one I can match to anything real (not yet anyway, but I have a hunch it might come to me). I was walking down some stairs and the staircase collapsed (kind of ‘folded up’). I slid down on my bum, hurt myself a little and at the bottom noticed a few nails sticking out of the wood. I felt I’d had a lucky escape with the nails. I radioed to security to ask if this collapsed staircase should be reported and my accident be recorded. I then turned round to look back at the staircase and it had become a full bed of sharp nails. I then turned back around to see that my MFF’s mum had observed the whole thing. She said she had come in to collect MFF from work and take her home (even though it was only about hour after we went in). She again wasn’t horrible to me about the staircase incident – more of a “we must stop bumping into each other like this” type reaction.
I don’t understand what all the parts mean but I don’t think you need to be Einstein to figure most of it out. The themes for me are ‘being seen’, lucky escapes, and judgement by the mother (although interestingly she wasn’t too harsh on me).
In the second dream I was a fresher at university (a much younger version of me – in my actual bed at my uni halls). On a night out I got drunk, slept with a gay man (and didn’t remember doing it the next day) and the gay guy then thought he was in a relationship with me. The dream was all about me trying to let him go / tell him it was all a mistake, and not being successful at it. I kept thinking he’d let me go, but he wouldn’t. I wasn’t actually gay in the dream – it was just a big drunk mistake that spiralled out of control. Somewhere in the background of this dream I was in a relationship with SO, but she had not gone to university with me.
I think the gay guy substitutes for MFF in this dream – as a forbidden relationship that I couldn’t have, fell into (and didn’t even want to be in) and then couldn’t extricate myself from.
Somewhere behind all this in my reality is a desire to tell SO all of it. We are in a much better place now I have pulled myself clearer of the LE. But where I am tired and flat, there are still big gaps where she doesn’t understand why I’m like I am. Yet I know disclosing to her would be to clear my conscience – not (I don’t think) any kind of selfless gesture to help her. So I am trying to battle it out with my conscience and not involve her. I think these dreams are a reflection of how hard that’s proving for me, and that internal battle playing out.
I’d be interested in your thoughts!
Maybe a symbolic/ literal meaning of appeasing the guard dog, or gaining its trust?
Both the actual dog and the mother guard dogging you…
It is about being validated/accepted.
🎩 🌽,
Thank you for giving me this privilege to “play” delicious analytic game with your dreams. (One time I did with Norma’s dream, almost posted but held back my tongue…. It was so clear to me like the sky, but confusing to her. )
What I’m going to frankly say maybe completely off marks, don’t take them too seriously. It’s just an outsider 👁️ peeking into your mind based on the given limited information.
Remember one thing here: whatever happens in the dream only EXIST in our unconscious, nothing objective or realistic outside of our mind. — they don’t tell or foretell about our realistic world presently or the future. It’s our subconscious REACTIONS towards what happened or is occurring in our reality, ie. our joys, inhabited desires, frustration, anger, upset, guilt, shame, fear… to the past events or anticipate the future.
“In the first, I went to MFF’s family home” —
It’s her mind and inner wrold, the world that you wanted to get in during LE and to be accepted in there.
“to feed a dog that lived outside the house. It seemed this was part of a regular morning ritual. “
There is a loyalty inside her that is not completely a “friend” with you. You wanted to please this “dog” and to befriend with it, whatever aspect it is.
“I heard noise inside the house, panicked at being discovered, somehow got into their house and hid in a bed (not MFF’s bed – I was on my own). “
Obviously, your LE is secret, forbidden. You have guilt/shame about your EA with MFF, but not physical affair (thus not in her bed, but your own).
“Then her mother caught me there. She was nice about it and seemed not surprised to see me, but just told me to leave quietly before anyone else saw me. I did.”
Mother — her maternal side, which understands your desires and motives, and can accept and even try to help protect you. After all, it’s a human nature over tipped by neuralchemicals.
“The dream then fast forwards to being at work. MFF was in a group of people I was chatting to. She’d changed her hair colour and looked attractive but sad. “
She knew that you were going to leave her mentally, sooner or later. It’s inevitable if you want to get rid of LE completely. Your mind has to “abandon” her as a LO/MFF, your mental eyes saw/worried about her sadness.
“I was on the periphery of a group she was talking to (including other real people we know). “
You didn’t want to be discovered with your LE in your work environment.
“I went over her and said “I’m coming over to say I’m going” (in the dream, going meant going off to do work). “
You wanted to explain why you’d have to pull yourself back, to “leave” her as a part of your exiting LE. You worry that you’d hurt her without explaining your LE completely.
“She said “you were over here anyway” as if I hadn’t needed to do/say it.”
Your mind told you that she already knew, no need to further explain.
“I went off. We were in a work building but not one I can match to anything real”
You’re taking the LE exiting path, which you didn’t fully know.
“I was walking down some stairs and the staircase collapsed (kind of ‘folded up’). “
Your mind knew you’re going to feel hurt, no matter how you exited LE. And once you’re out, you couldn’t go back. — “the staircase collapsed”.
“I slid down on my bum, hurt myself a little and at the bottom noticed a few nails sticking out of the wood. I felt I’d had a lucky escape with the nails. “
This exit could have been worse than what you’re feeling now — flat and fatigued. You felt lucky that you were not terribly bruised by “those nails” of LE exit.
“I radioed to security to ask if this collapsed staircase should be reported and my accident be recorded. “
Ha, no one else you could have “radioed”, except LwL. 😀 Your mind wanted the collapsed staircase to be repaired, in case you wanted go back to MFF (with normal affection, previous friendship) one day.
“I then turned round to look back at the staircase and it had become a full bed of sharp nails. “
Oh Dear! Did you see that your exited your LE, and the returning path has collapsed!
“I then turned back around to see that my MFF’s mum had observed the whole thing. “
Your MFF’s maternal side knows what has happened with you in the reality. She’s not a fool.
“She said she had come in to collect MFF from work and take her home”
Her maternal side is taking care of her, bringing her to her safe, nurturing internal home. Your mind knows this. She’s strong, good LO.
“She again wasn’t horrible to me about the staircase incident – more of a “we must stop bumping into each other like this” type reaction.”
How could her protective maternal side (not judgmental) gets angry with your understandable behaviors — desires, guilt, decision to pull away, bumpy, tiring, and no-returning exit… ?
“I don’t understand what all the parts mean but I don’t think you need to be Einstein to figure most of it out. The themes for me are ‘being seen’, lucky escapes, and judgement by the mother (although interestingly she wasn’t too harsh on me).”
As you just saw, my interpretation differs from yours; I stand by mine for this dream.
“On a night out I got drunk, slept with a gay man (and didn’t remember doing it the next day) and the gay guy then thought he was in a relationship with me. “
Your regularly “prohibited” mind was trying its P toned adventures — a gay guy represent an ultimate, beyond the rational limit.
“The dream was all about me trying to let him go / tell him it was all a mistake, and not being successful at it. I kept thinking he’d let me go, but he wouldn’t. I wasn’t actually gay in the dream – it was just a big drunk mistake that spiralled out of control. “
Opps, your P adventure went overboard, bringing in unwanted consequences. You don’t have 1% gay tendency, but being drunk freeing up P, anyone could end up doing anything! Your mind knew this and told you so.
“Somewhere in the background of this dream I was in a relationship with SO, but she had not gone to university with me.”
SO here symbolizes social norms/rules, prohibiting your P mentality (as you complained how she likes planned activities! )
“I think the gay guy substitutes for MFF in this dream – as a forbidden relationship that I couldn’t have, fell into (and didn’t even want to be in) and then couldn’t extricate myself from.”
It could be. But the gay guy could just represents forbidden (not totally, you could be a 1% bisexual) stuff your P mind wanders into but is unable to materialize in the reality.
“Somewhere behind all this in my reality is a desire to tell SO all of it. We are in a much better place now I have pulled myself clearer of the LE. “
I don’t see these two dreams are closely related to your desire to disclose to SO. You’re closer to SO now — all your time indulged in or hounded by LE did NOT get wasted! LE is just a catalyst. Without going through it, you would NOT be where you ARE now with SO. Please try to see the positive side of going through this LE.
“But where I am tired and flat, there are still big gaps where she doesn’t understand why I’m like I am.”
It’s up to whether you want her to truly understand you, and it ALL up to YOU to make substantial efforts to make yourself understood by her! If being solid friends/soulmates, this desired understanding could be done by you alone, or by both of you. But you’re not there yet.
“Yet I know disclosing to her would be to clear my conscience – not (I don’t think) any kind of selfless gesture to help her. “
Then, making you disclosing to her not just to “clear up your own conscience”, but a big gesture that you want to take her, from now on, as a true soulmate/solid friend (she’s already your love, anyway). To reach that level, you have to open up your soul first.
“Selfless gesture to help her.” If you don’t have “Self”, how could you help her or anyone else? Where would be your center? Without you firmly grounded, how could you pull another “up”, if you think she needs your help. If I were you, I’d somehow validate what she needs, make her stronger on her own with your spiritual and loving support, and then pull herself up, while your hands are ready to hold hers anytime!
“So I am trying to battle it out with my conscience and not involve her.”
Walking alone on this path, when you have SO who needs your love and solid support, is unwise or isolating her at least, in my 👁️. It’s not a strong bonding behavior to tie closer with her as a truly loving SO and unbreakable friend.
“I think these dreams are a reflection of how hard that’s proving for me, and that internal battle playing out.”
The dreams only reflect your mind, not the reality. I don’t know all your reality or your mind, but can only frankly speak my interpretations based on your words here. Hopefully, you don’t get offended if they’re “wrong”.
As you always told me, as well as Jung, that the dreamer’s interpretations of his/her dreams matter the most. So work more with your dreams to make them beneficial to you, your SO, and your CONNECTION — the last part is the most important!
All this talk of dreams reminds me of the fact that I dream about LO almost constantly. The dreams are different, but the same. It’s always some version of me trying to make connections with him, but failing.
My dreams remind me of what a nothing-burger he is in terms of maintaining our friendship. He certainly cares about me in his own way, but puts forth very little effort. If I stopped putting effort in the relationship, it would not amount to much.
He has been in Europe on business for two weeks and has not texted me even once. I have made no effort to text him, because I am sure I would catch him at the worst possible time. I’m sure he’s busy, but it’s notable that he can’t find two minutes to keep in touch.
Hi Norma
This sounds suspiciously like my own recent LE. Very self-centred, totally on her terms and when are where she wanted. I am making moves to break away: NC, blocking etc. it’s hard. Not sure if the exact circumstances of your LE, but things all to familiar.
Best wishes
To Justme:
It sounds very similar. If I had more self-discipline, I think the relationship would just die a natural death. The problem is that I light up like a Christmas tree when I see him.
He is in the process of preparing his house for sale. He wants to move a long distance away. I obviously have no influence with him. He has a breathtaking, one-of-a-kind, high-end house, and I suspect it will take quite a while to sell. It’s not a practical house, and will have to be purchased by someone who is artsy and very well off.
I can’t do anything about any of this, and have just been slowly preparing myself for the inevitable end. I am pleased that I am holding up relatively well during this three-week business trip with no contact. I get extremely emotional when I see him, but if he’s on the other side of the country, hopefully I will be able to restore my equilibrium, because he will not be very good about keeping in touch. He might think of me once or twice a year on holidays, but it won’t be anything substantial.
Hi Norma
I understand what you’re going through. I have to say that I agree, as painful as it might be to start with, the distance will be what you need. That is certainly by gamble.
Best wishes
JMMO x
🏵🌱🍅,
Thanks so much for the analysis.
On the first dream, there is plenty I understood similarly to you. Firstly we were much the same on the bit when she said “you were already over here” as symbolising “I already understand you have to end this – don’t worry”. It is also an implicit message to me not to panic and disclose if things feel awkward. I too understood the nails on the staircase as a lucky, ‘soft’ escape vs what it could have been – although I thought that was topped up by the added bit when I looked back at the bed of nails seconds later – that part was telling me “a closer, luckier escape than I knew”.
What you got different to me (and which was very interesting to read) was how you thought the house, the dog (I previously made no sense of that) and the mother all symbolised parts of MFF. I was especially interested in the mother as her understanding side and also the taking care of herself.
All in all, if much of your interpretation is correct, this dream was my sub-conscious trying to reassure my overworked and over-worried conscious mind. I might not have got to all of that without your help. The dream would have told me in my own interpretation to stay the course of leaving the LE, and to try and keep quiet about it – so it is similar, but without the reassurance side.
Have you studied Jung enough to say that these are near ‘by the book’ Jungian interpretations, or is it your own creativity coming up with some of it? I don’t mind either way – just interested.
The gay dream – I don’t think we’re miles apart on interpretations. I’d add that I read once that if the subconscious finds a literal interpretation of something too problematic (if the rational mind blocks it out too hard), it finds a more creative way to get at the same issue. So I wondered if that dream was getting at how a hypothetical PA with MFF might have felt to me – but her presence in the dream was prohibited – so the gay thing was substituted in, because (for me) the idea of a gay relationship is so far off my radar that it is more of a way for the subconscious to ‘play’ with the topic of a PA in an almost comic way. The dream as a whole is telling me I was right not to have a PA. The being drunk, I felt = being limerent – out of control / under the influence.
Thank you for your comments and thoughts about the pros and cons of disclosure to SO. I started a reply yesterday but it got long winded and rambling, and needs more thought – I’ll get back to it sometime soon.
Hope you’re doing OK with the change back to your timezone. Your chess synchronicity with 🍧 (and a guy proposing a chess date with her) amused me. I also love a good game of chess.
I was going to comment on your dream but unfortunately got sidetracked. But I wouldn’t have had much to add to your own and 🏵️’s musings. I just wanted to say: great dreams, amazing and inventive symbolism (esp.the gay dream)! You surpass most guys I know on that front as well. 😜 Most rarely remember dreams.
Oh yes, and the collapsible staircase, pure Hogwarts! I have a picture of that on my phone.
The chess date was a dud, I would’ve much preferred playing with you. I have to stop now lest we end up in an EA again. 😜
🚜 & 🍨,
Oh, just woke up around 5am, had 3 hours longer of sleep than the previous night — woking up around 2am and never went back to any nap. The jet leg felt awful especially when I had to teach with my enthusiasm put in and the tired eyes just wanted to shut down…
“Have you studied Jung enough to say that these are near ‘by the book’ Jungian interpretations, or is it your own creativity coming up with some of it?”
I picked up dreams analysis from various sources, a bit of Freud, Jung (“Man and His Symbol”), and Marie-Louise von Franz (YT). They all share one thing in common: anything appears in dreams (the majority times) are symbols for something else, you simply can’t take them literally. Even MFF could just represent some aspects in your Unconscious, not realistic MFF at all.
For your dream interpretation, I didn’t go into Jungian method; otherwise, even MFF would turn to be something else in your psyche (that mirror image). It’s combined with some common symbols, my instinct/intuition based on all your “rumblings” about MFF and LE in the past year. Not much creativity, either; I could not see or feel what you saw in your dream (I’ll give you guys my own analysis of my own dream on that chess game later). Again, everything/everyone/every action appeared in the vast map of your Unconscious graphically and narratively represents your thoughts and emotions, about specific events or just life in general.
I still disagree with your interpretation on Gay guy, you’re stretching it, pulling MFF into it, while her presence was not even there. You put too much of your rational mind into your interpretation, wishing even your Unconscious shows/proves your unwillingness to have PA with MFF — is imagination of hypothetical PA in with MFF in daydream REALLY far off the radar in your life, like having sex with a gay man? (Even myself, very occasionally I wondered what it would be like if I go to a lesbian/bisexual lady, then it always met with gasp — unthinkable. However going to 👽, definitely possible but ONLY in reveries. )
I look at your 2nd dream at a much broader canvas: you complained that glimmer/LE took place when you felt your adventurous nature were repressed by mandate life, by societal rules, by SO’s lack of spontaneity, etc (we chatted about your MFF’s freer P and your wish to have more P activities a while ago). So your Unconscious let you have utmost P activity, out of drunk, to its maximum— impossible in your waking hours. Then it showed you the regrets/consequence you would have after having such a wild P event.
Base on Jung and other psychoanalysts, the Unconscious has no fear, it will show, in images and narratives, all what we are afraid or trying to avoid, or have suppressed down… that’s dream’s function —to show, to complain, to release. REM sleep is vital to everyone’s mental health, even without memory of dreams afterwards.
🍧,
I’m 😊!
What, you’re kidding, was there actually a folding staircase in Harry Potter?? So my epic dream could also have some subliminal ‘Hogwarts regret’, as well as everything else it was telling me?!
When I went to Hogwarts it was years ago and there was so little there compared to now.
Sorry chess man was a dud. I also thought the chess was quite a clever alternative (ahem) ‘move’ from him. Obviously you aren’t looking for a white knight and his bishop didn’t glimmer.
One of my best friends (male) of the time got really into the dating apps in the simpler days of the 00s – maybe went on about 30 dates (this is actually a friend, not me trying to disguise myself – I only ever met 3 women I found on apps). He used to talk about ratios – how many women he’d have to see to have one that went to a second date, how many for ‘more’. Numbers between 1 in 3 and 1 in 7 ring a bell. I guess it depends on what someone is looking for. He concluded it was quite a lot of effort (including all the preamble chat) for the rewards.
He was a curious combo though – had money and a good job, slightly below average conversationalist (but that did improve) and objectively below average looks wise. But he was confident and liked himself. What do you think of that combo??
Re your dates’ behaviours – interesting … men are pretty much conditioned not to try and kiss a girl until at least the second date. I don’t think I ever mastered the hand/arm touch – from me it would just seem so ‘obvious’!
Anyway tada for now 💪🤛
In Hogwarts it was actually a moving staircase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFvizAQHJz8 But that was what I pictured when I read your dream. ‘Hogwarts regret’ – must be!
“Obviously you aren’t looking for a white knight and his bishop didn’t glimmer.” Ha, no, his bishops were stumbling all over themselves!
You’re right – the hand touches felt pretty obvious for me too. The smoothest one was when the date steered the conversation toward the effects of coffee drinking and how it raises your pulse. He set me up to tell him that I have quite a high resting pulse, so of course he had to try it for himself. (There’s a tip for you men – now I’m sure more women will have to deal with that move! 😜) I think him and one of the other guys fancied themselves Casanovas, so they had to try their moves. The last one was a hand touch when he clearly wanted to kiss me instead (he wrote me that afterwards), but I didn’t give the signal for that.
Money and a good job don’t do much for me, because I’m not looking for anyone to fund my life. But ambition and a job you love are a big advantage. “Confident and liked himself” sounds like a great combo. I’m trying to be less picky about looks, but I admit you would have to take good care of yourself and kick up the confidence to compensate. I’m sure most women would agree.
Now, let’s talk about my 🆎 💭 😴 !
I had 5 dreams in 5 naps since back home: one about 👽 (2nd), one I forgot (3rd, Sunday night), and three dreams runs the exactly same theme — getting lost in Venice. the first was the most vivid, best remembered one, the 4th one in last evening was very vague, and the 5th one from which I just woke up had more pieces of remembered scenes with Dad, Mom, and some conflicts/clashes with a group of teenager girls in some public area of Venice.
Well if a dream topic — getting lost in Venice (which was true in reality) runs three times repeatedly in two days, then it’s probably NOT about getting lost in a realistic, geographical place, it maybe about getting lost in a metaphorical place….
So Let’s look at the first dream, since it is well-remembered, except a couple of confusing details.
1. I was relaxedly wandering in Venice streets and continued getting lost, both in reality and in dreams. However in the dream, I could ask you, LwL 👻 👻 👻 for help. Each time I posted a note here, any of you could see where I was and direct me to turn left or right. My locations were shared on everyone’s GPS.
2. It was a sunny, lazy day, warm but not hot. I was not worried at all, knowing I could just post and then find my way out. It showed my trust in you ghosts and LwL — you’re not going to abandon me in Venice alleys. However, I did get a bit uncomfortable thinking all your invisible eyes in the air watching every move of mine.
3. Here comes a bit confusion of scene connection: as I was still leisurely walking, my rival in black again appeared in the blue sky, sitting on a huge, thick white cloud, and a voice said he came over to play “chess” with me. But it was not clear how my walking in the streets could simultaneously talking place with playing chess up in a gigantic cloud?
[Chess is the last game on earth I ever want to play, it’s intimidating, requiring logical anticipating of the opponent’s moves 2-10 steps ahead. I am so bad at it, that my 9 yrs pupil check-mated me in less 10 steps about two months ago. The word “chess” rarely came into my conscious mind.]
4. So I went up and sat on a thin layer of cloud with just a chessboard in front of me (nothing else around us besides the sky and clouds). A typical chessboard as it was, but all pieces were not chess pieces — no king, queen, bishops, etc! They’re made of crystal/glasses, flowery, elaborately carved lamppost pieces (each piece about 3 inch tall). If a chess game resembles a life (the board signifies life) game — two kingdom flighting for a win with its king, queen, knights, bishops, soldiers, etc, then the chess game I was about to play was not about wining or losing war — the entire board was covered by individual, artistic lamppost pieces whiteout any titles; no two pieces were alike. 2 or 3 filled rows on each side.
5. There were no rules given in the dream, but all pieces were moving in the checker-like steps, one-square move at a time. I only remembered that each time, my opponent took a piece after my square-move into his territory, I asked/begged the piece back and made another meaningless move in my own domain. My mind was clearly saying, “I don’t want part with any of those beautiful pieces, none of them!” as if once a piece is taken, it would disappear for good, off the cloud. It was like a life-or-death of lampposts.
6. At one point, I was worried that my opponent, sitting across me now (first on my left side), would get grumpy and mad at me, or accuse me unfair/cheating (he did not say it, it’s my dream thoughts), but he was calm, quiet, a bit smiling and indulging with no words, so I took back my moves about 13-14 times, thinking I could get away with it indefinitely — a kid could always get away cheating in games with a spoiling parent….
7. My opponent was even tempered the whole time, and never said a word! (Never spoke a single world in three dreams altogether! 🙄, always in black, all appearances looked the same… ) I did not take any piece of his, and he took one and half pieces of mine. But why half? half of what, which piece was half⁉️
8. But after a while, after I took another movie back, he suddenly grasped a one-inch tall, black, plain-looking, wooden Bishop of mine standing in front of his boarder. He firmly held it in his hand, looked at me, and I knew I could not get it back! I was shocked that I did not even see its existence on the board the whole time, where was my tiny Bishop hiding before it was decisively taken away?
9. My tiny bishop must have meant something to me, because I gasped silently and then was yanked out of the dream immediately. I could not understand it, but I’m not stressed about it; there was no wining or losing at all in the game. And how many times one gets to play games sitting on a gigantic cloud in a bright blue sky like two gods?
Only after waking up this morning, I thought this chess game might mean a game of competing arts, writing, and creativity. All those taking back steps was like editing my purple prose, again and again… (it also makes sense 🧠 💡 that there was a half piece taken away by my rival). I did not want to lose any piece of my creativity, all of them weighted equally, no ranks. All of them looked distinctive from each other, like those Venice lampposts.
Feel free to interpret such a stress-free dream anyway you wish! 😊
🐦🔥
🚜,
I did not grow up with the concept of “bishop” at all. What does it mean/signify in chess and in life?
I don’t understand why my Unconscious had a bishop without my knowing and why I lost it in a non-chess game; what does it all mean?
Also about the chess playing scene, it could also be the 2nd layer dream/imagination, meaning as I was walking in Venice street (in the dream), I had this chess scene daydreamed in my head — thus the 2nd layer “dream.” It’s not rare for me to dream in layers, normally two.
Of course, there could be “no logic” at all in dreams, anything is possible. But to the Unconscious, it always means something with or without our understandings.
🦜,
I have layered dreams too. Tell me if this is familiar – you think you’ve woken up, but haven’t – only gone up one level. I can find that quite disturbing at the time.
“I thought this chess game might mean a game of competing arts, writing, and creativity. All those taking back steps was like editing my purple prose, again and again… (it also makes sense 🧠 💡 that there was a half piece taken away by my rival).”
That would make sense. As for what the bishop represented, someone or something important that was hiding in plain sight but been taken from you – not necessarily taken by this same rival, in reality?
I had a hunch you’d say I was trying too hard with the rational mind to interpret my gay dream. Your idea about it exploring a P adventure for me, having yes said several times “I want spontaneity” is also interesting.
“Unconscious has no fear, it will show, in images and narratives, all what we are afraid or trying to avoid, or have suppressed down…”
Ok, i get this. What I once read (I forget my source but could be Freud or Klein – an XSO was deep into both and had me reading it) is that the unconscious might show it in metaphor if it doesn’t want to confront the reality. I understand that this runs contrary to how you’re explaining it, though. It is hard to know when things in dreams are literal or symbolic.
‘Bishop’ is a very high ranking priest in Roman Catholic, Anglican and several other Christian faiths. Is it possible you encountered the word heavily in Italy? In chess, the bishop moves diagonally. There is a bit of (probably British) innuendo around the word too – you can Google “bash the bishop” to find out more, should you wish! (Hope that gets through the censors)
🎩 🚜,
I don’t believe I’d ever go back to a normal sleeping schedule, since I dropped dead 99% in the earlier evenings and just had to sleep before I could even finish my preparation for today’s teaching.
Thank you for your message, which sideline helped me TREMENDOUSLY to put the whole puzzle of my dream together, another brain never fails to enlighten my narrow thinking or imagination! I was so excited last night, but too tired to write it out. Then I dreamt about eagerly telling the fitting spots of those puzzle pieces…. The Unconscious, as it’s said scientifically, works literally 24/7, every minute.
“you think you’ve woken up, but haven’t – only gone up one level. I can find that quite disturbing at the time.”
I had this kind of dream, even four months ago (about 👽); they’re a kind of like a second layer. What I meant more in layered dreams is that the dreamer had first layer of the dream, then dreamed something (within the dream) else with the similar narratives/characters, and the brain (in the dream) recognized the first one as a dream, but the 2nd one as a “reality”, like in the movie “Inception” (5 layers).
For example, I dreamt 👽 in one setting and spoke with him, he said such, such… Then I thought I woke up a bottle bit but did not. I went to 👽 in a different location in the 2nd layer dream and told him that I just dreamed about him and he said such, such (word for word)… Then after finally waking up, I realized that both parts are dreams. I thought it was quite amusing! I enjoy dreaming — achieving impossibles. I do not make up dream details (may not tell some if too embarrassing)— that would be cheating one’s own “soul”/Unconscious.
After your post, I finally figured out that this chess part of the dream was not within the first part of the dream, meaning I was not daydreaming/wishful thinking about it while leisurely walking in the Venice street. It actually happened as a second part of the dream parallel to the first one. The first clue (2nd one later) is how my rival had arrived —
Have you seen the magnificent ceiling painting in Toledo’s Duomo, Spain?
https://imgur.com/a/S3dEybZ — Toledo Duomo Painting
https://imgur.com/a/p3kAaQ5 — Toledo Cathedral ceiling
https://imgur.com/a/3DiAgUv — the ceiling painting closer
So I was wandering in the street of Venice thinking about you guys who could give me a direction if I post and ask for help. Then the clear sky opened up in the shape of “Toledo ceiling painting” but more oval shaped — on the left side edge was a thick while cloud, right side was clear sky (no paintings).
My rival was sitting behind this thick cloud, I could only see his top torso, in black (still can not figure out why my Unconscious always dressed him up in black with the same conjured face— surely different than the realistic one!). Then a voice said, “he comes to play a chess with you.” Then from the standing on a street, I rose up to the right side within the oval “frame”.
Now you can visualize that the game took place within the framed sky like in the shown Duomo painting, with some cloud we sat on and surrounded a chess board, just sort of suspended in the air. People down below could not really see it due to the enclosing frame . I never fell off the sky frame, just woke up after the Bishop was taken.
“As for what the bishop represented, someone or something important that was hiding in plain sight but been taken from you – not necessarily taken by this same rival, in reality?”
These few lines helped expand my interpretation the most and led me to my “liberated” understanding. Please allow me to organize my dream and thoughts again —
1. I know superficial meaning of a Bishop in life and in chess. In COO, they’re always referred as “Red Cloaked Bishop” (always wearing red — positive/good luck/power; black — negative/mysterious/ominous; white — mourning/plain/powerless), symbolizing “morality exemplifier”, almost beyond any reproach.
2. What I did not understand why I had a bishop in my Unconscious and was unaware of it. I was far from all sorts of morality codes and hates preaching moralists. So first, I thought I might have a tiny amount (1 inch tall, plain, and black) of morality left/hidden within me. Then, I dislike its shape and color compared to those fabulous lamppost pieces (3-4 inch tall, painstakingly carved in details) on my “chess” board.
3. My rival let me take back all my flowery pieces, but not this tiny, intrusive bishop, why? If the bishop was a morality symbol, then losing it would make me completely moral-free. Moreover, he does seem to be a controlling freak; he would not want/need to take away a part of me, perfect or flawed.
4. Now, your words gave me a new direction: this black bishop was not a part of me, but “something or someone important” hidden in plain sight of my life — something or someoneI did not see or thought was gone. Then what or who did/does it represent?
5. Another confusion: a voice of the Unconscious told me that it was “chess” game to play (pronounced very clearly). Why? I don’t like chess, and the actual game played here was more like “checker”. Now, I understand it — the “chess” would allow that 1 single Bishop to suddenly, legitimately drop onto the chessboard (not a checker board). I saw it clearly for a second, standing at the center of the boarder line. My rival grabbed it immediately.
6. Now, the question moves to: what and who is represented by the short, black bishop? You can’t guess, because you don’t know all the “facts” in my LE of 7 years. So you’ll have to believe and take what I’m telling you here — it’s a residual part of xLO — 👽, whom I alluded/envisioned in my early LE as a morally “safe”, “red cloaked bishop” (I even told him in person), which brought my initial “confession” of my stresses of the time. The Unconscious stores ageless information from all the past, all the way back to birth.
7. Why/how did he “shrank” to one-inch tall, black “bishop”? Well you’ll know about his “flaw” in the past three years… thus the earliest and the latest version of a “bishop” in my Unconscious, despite that my logical mind refuses to see so.
8. “not necessarily taken by this same rival, in reality?” Here a question: what does your “reality” mean here? You mean our “life” in LwL is unreal, just existing in our head or in a different dimension? Our reality is more like our job, home, realistic friends with official names, and daily routines? Then WHO are here chatting and rambling day in and night out, our own “ghosts”/avetors? Am I real person or a “ghost” to you in your reality?
9. In LwL, everyone knows about (assuming all posts are read and remembered) each other’s LO/LE stories, detailed or vague, without anyone’s realistic identity. But have you ever asked a question: whether some LOs also know about some of us, of course, in ghostly form? Can “ghosts” rival with “real” people or “real” people rival with “ghosts”? Does rivalry or jealousy exist in a mental/emotional or/and physical/realistic domain?
10. The “ “bash the bishop” was inapplicable in the dream, because I had absolutely no idea what it meant and had to “deep seek” its meaning after you mentioned it. The Unconscious can’t demonstrate anything that it has no previous knowledge or data. Secondly, the game was played up in the clear sky, (not on a Venice street), which signifies it took place at a spiritual level — no food, drink, decoration, or even a siting pillow, but a chessboard and many miniature beautiful lamppost pieces. We sat on clouds, playing a “peaceful” game, without even basic human needs except pure air.
11. But your introduction of the slang helped convince me (the 2nd clue), that chess playing was not my “daydream” inside my dream, but it actually “took place”. The black bishop had a right to intrude in any chessboard; however, in this dream, he did not FIT/belong to the actual game played (checker like), he did not have any artistic or beautiful bearing, like a lamppost. He needed to be taken away, not just on the earthly ground, but more effectively on a spiritual domain. My Unconscious is clear and clever what it needs, so it “fabricated” such a dream.
12. Would the second Bishop in a chess show up in the future? I don’t know. my Unconscious saw that one black Bishop was firmly taken away, which simply could not be believed at all in the past, it was 🆎 IMPOSSIBLE! Yet, it occurred in this dream! That’s why my logical mind was shocked to wake up!
You see, everything in a dream, from location to color to light to size… all has meanings, and mostly symbolizes something else. I follow Jungian theories combined with my own understandings (Only ME knows my own thoughts/sentiments better than any experts), not Freudian excessive libido interpretations or anyone other types of theories.
🚜,
Forgot to tell you how I know whether my analogy of the black bishop to the 194cm “red cloaked bishop” made some sense, and what effect of losing the black bishop on the chessboard was —
Remembering the 2nd dream (after homecoming) I had a few hours after the first one, during the first night of homecoming? —
I was given an official, legitimate permission to take a ride to the space with 👽, which would be my “ideal” dream in the past (I was excited first). Yet, I decided NOT to go up at all, after the Unconscious 👁️ one more time the cold truth behind that amicable, polite, yet indifferent smile… I lost the desire, at the unconscious level!
Now, what do you think the Unconscious did or could do in a single night without me even leaving the bed (— nothing in reality had changed⁉️ )
🍅,
I’m glad my prompts helped you piece the dream together. My first wondering was whether it related to ‘morality’ (you see a lot of moralising here compared to what you say is a comfortable level for you – how has being on LwL altered your feelings there? (rhetorical), but my second thought was whether the bishop somehow related to part of 👽. I didn’t want to 🌱 either idea, more see if you’d reach it yourself.
Yeah, I get the difference between the two kinds of layered dream you described. I can occasionally ‘go back’ to a dream (with some changes) once I (think I) have woken up. Sometimes I feel frustrated that I can’t – I want to see how it ends!
About your questions about ‘reality’ vs LwL. There are maybe two issues at stake here. One is more about that dream than about LwL more generally. I understood (though maybe incorrectly) that the ‘chess’ rival in the dream was an LwLer. What I meant is that in your real life, that person didn’t (although hypothetically could have helped to) ‘take’ what was represented by your ‘bishop’ away from you. It could have been taken in another way but the subconscious pulled them together in the dream.
The second issue – I see LwL as part of my reality, but quite a boxed off part. I can be whatever I choose to be here, as can anyone else – to show what I want to show, hide what I don’t. 👻👁👁can only 👀 so much. For me personally, I can be a very authentic self here – something the LE has denied me in other bits of life. I choose to believe most other LwLers do the same. So it isn’t something I see as separate from my reality, but as a part of it – at a distance, 👻ly, but you are all real people / souls who I value without ever fully knowing. I
may sometimes use ‘in reality / in real life’ here to distinguish from dreams. Or sometimes to distinguish from LwL – eg all of you know about my LE, whereas I have told only three others ‘in real life’
And that’s given me pause for thought on the contradictions in my logic!
🚜
“My first wondering was whether it related to ‘morality’ (you see a lot of moralising here compared to what you say is a comfortable level for you – how has being on LwL altered your feelings there? (rhetorical)”
After being in LwL for less two years, I still see my definition/sense of morality is different from “a lot of moralising” here (can’t go over into lengthy details), due to my cultural and personal background that unfortunately includes childhood and youth traumas (so my wishes and judgment sticks were/are different from others, ie. most girls wanted attention and liked flattery, I did not; they often repulsed me.)
Almost all cultures stress “kindness” and doing “no harm”, but what are considered “kind” and “harmless” behaviors can differ as vastly as the Atlantic sea, especially in the arena of limerence. Having experienced a real LE myself and finally learned about it, I’d never judge any Limerents ‘immoral’ just because s/he had SO already and then fall into lust/LE for someone else or keep slipping into one LE after another — causes of LE ALWAYS lie in limerents themselves (personality traits) or their own adversity circumstance.
Human feelings are not and cannot be controlled by logic mind. However how to do “no harm” to others and oneself is the highest order, whether oneself has SO or not. In most situations, one just can’t have it all without hurting someone; the intensity of the LE desire exemplified here more than often baffled me (My COO was more Stoic, ironically by its political system and passed down philosophies and Buddhism). By being in LwL for a while, I’ve learned to be more compassionate and empathetic, much less righteous and judgmental.
“but my second thought was whether the bishop somehow related to part of 👽”
Yes, his black and white lies and a “red cloaked bishop”hypocrisy! (I don’t care if he’s found this site and listen to what I openly say here.). If one admits that he has “helpless” lust/LE for someone “inappropriate”, that’s honesty and courage. But he repeatedly stressed his loyalty to his SO while offering “alternative”, causal connection or “indirect” PA, and then went on a regular rendezvous with another LE/LO pet for over 2-3 years (of course he did not know that I knew and even hinted to him that I knew), which ironically helped me keep my oath. I understand necessity of white or black lies in LE, but still can’t help despise hypocrisy — here is one of my morality.
I refused “the 🛸 to the Moon” not because there was a SO (a concept of SO) there, but because there was not affection on his side for me, which would mean I’d be used if I took the “ride”. Without truly caring or loving, physical pleasure would turn to emotional “torture”afterwards, I learned it from LE #2…. I knew that I cannot repeat such a“harm” to myself; if no one else cared, at least I Selfishly cared for my own wellbeing and my oath….
“I understood (though maybe incorrectly) that the ‘chess’ rival in the dream was an LwLer. “ Yes, you’re correct.
“What I meant is that in your real life, that person didn’t (although hypothetically could have helped to) ‘take’ what was represented by your ‘bishop’ away from you. It could have been taken in another way but the subconscious pulled them together in the dream.”
So you’re saying that dreams are not a part of one’s “real life”? And the Unconscious just randomly pick up whatever and whoever to serve the purpose of taking “the bishop” away? Do you think anyone, in LwL or my reality, could possibly serve such a function? Just to be clear here: I haven’t seen any of your physical form (aside from DrL); don’t have any private email/communication (aside from Dr L), you saw/read what everyone else saw/read. You personally have most emoji communications with me, which probably have confused many 👻 👻 👻, 🔥 🍊 🍷 for one!
I think perhaps that we still have some different understandings about what Unconscious is compromised of❓ There is no way I can explain my concept clearly. But I think we both agree that the subconscious could not conjure up totally baseless images or narratives — children can’t dream about what their future wedding is going to look like, without knowing what wedding means at all. Maybe the question to be asked is, “has the “bishop” been taken in another way” before “the subconscious pulled them together in the dream?” Who came first, 🐓 or the 🥚 ?
Do you remember that “deserted battle ground” scene on 4/2 (posted here). That was not a dream, but an envision after waking up… the tear did its work very surprisingly. I planned NONE of these “reality” or “dream” events, only that my curious mind was never closed or limited in one direction during this LE long-tailed period or in other periods of my earlier life. It runs by a formula of SSS — sensitivity + sensibility + spontaneity ( 🔁a dose of rationality), for a short human life! You can accuse me an “opportunist” if you deem fitting, although I could not see one inch beyond my small Asian nose, just like I play authentic chess in my waking hours. 😆
“The second issue – I see LwL as part of my reality, but quite a boxed off part. I can be whatever I choose to be here, as can anyone else – to show what I want to show, hide what I don’t. “
Very true. And if playing an actor helps distract or release our LE stresses/pains, then by all means go for it! I did it little bit (unable to do it in reality in both cultures) at the begging to distract my stuck LE rumination and sadness (annoyed some LwLers) . But since I came back from COO and became my own “parent”, I “acted” much less, due to mild depression from the forced NC. However, I tried to keep some creativity (spilling out purple words here or there) so as not to fall in sleep all the time. Our L’Amoor splashing party during the holiday was really stimulating and fun!
“For me personally, I can be a very authentic self here – something the LE has denied me in other bits of life. I choose to believe most other LwLers do the same. So it isn’t something I see as separate from my reality, but as a part of it – at a distance”
I truly believe you are authentic in showing parts of your inside, and I’m glad and proud you are — to be one’s Self, without fear to be judged or ignored, is much less tiring, more fulfilling than to be an “imposter”… So you’d invite me, as a real person, for a cup of giggly tea if I am in 🇬🇧 soil? 😜. You know I can fly anywhere on the earth, like a 🐦🔥, right? I’d be so curious to see if you look like how you were shown in my dream… by the way, are you medium in height (between 175-180cm)?
“but you are all real people / souls who I value without ever fully knowing. “
That’s the beauty of this space, because we have shared our most vulnerable parts, which cannot be done in reality, particular by you lot with SO. I bet you feel closer to some of us here than many of your friends in your reality!
“And that’s given me pause for thought on the contradictions in my logic!”
What contradictions are you taking about it here❓
Finally, with a cup of evening coffee (almost never), I am holding up not to fall in sleep too early and wake up in wee hours…
❄️,
I have time to type a quick (for me) reply so will just pick up only a few points.
I too loved the Amoor holiday ‘splashdown’ – the music, our group LwL composition, etc etc. We might need a summer event there – if or when spontaneity tells us to!
SO and I went out to grab some food last night and the pub where we ate played “By L’Amoors” – this at a point when I had been composing mental replies to both you and 🍧, but not had the chance to type them out. Synchronicity again!
I got from your original recounting of it, why you refused the 🚀 in the dream. Makes real sense.
About different understandings of the unconscious – yes, we are bound to be different, and yours is more developed than mine through research. Sometimes I just offer out stuff based on intuition, on a ‘take or leave’ basis.
But to try and simplify what I was saying about the dream (maybe) conflating two things – I mean that several events or at least sets of actors / elements had occurred ‘in your reality’ but not all together. Or put another way, that ‘your rival’ never literally took that part of 👽from you. Or put another way again, that the rival in the dream was a symbol for something else (just as the gay man in my dream symbolized – in your interpretation – my P adventuring). I’m Ok that any or all of that could be wrong, as you will know your own dream best.
‘Contradictions in my logic’ part … the contradiction I noticed (you sort of pointed it out) is that sometimes I use ‘in real life’ to mean ‘not on LwL’ when I’m also saying “LwL is part of my real life”. And yes I do feel closer to several LwLers in a strange 👻 way, than friends outside it. You folks alone (not even SO) know my account of what this last year has been like in my head. If you were near, I would have 😂🏴🫖 with you!
I haven’t had the time to express myself as well as I want in this message (especially about the dreams, subconscious etc), so please take it in that spirit!
🚜,
Feeling better finally to have some “normal” hour sleep, though still short and packed with busy dreams, which was very confusing, related to posts here… something about European time zone, or which posts were realistic response in timely fashion, and which ones were old… I could not remember or sort it out at this moment.
Two nights ago, I dreamt that I stood on a 40-50 meter diving board, expected by some audience to jump into a pool of very clear water, to prove something to them (my ability? My words? ) I have vertigo in reality, getting dizzy standing on edge of any high place, a lower Mountain top or even on “The Great Wall.). I did not feel dizzy this time in the dream but was clearly aware of my vertigo. I said to myself, “I do not need to show off or prove anything to anyone!” Then walked down the board. No one laughed at me as I had expected.
“But to try and simplify what I was saying about the dream (maybe) conflating two things – I mean that several events or at least sets of actors / elements had occurred ‘in your reality’ but not all together.”
True.
“Or put another way, that ‘your rival’ never literally took that part of 👽from you. “
You’re right. It’s myself, a part of my Unconscious took that bishop through a hand in the form of my rival — a part of Self (remember IFS Self parts?).
“Or put another way again, that the rival in the dream was a symbol for something else (just as the gay man in my dream symbolized – in your interpretation – my P adventuring).”
Now, you’re into Jung’s dream theories! — every character, image, and narrative in a dream comes from our Unconscious Self. A deeper analysis would be to figure out what they represent in the Unconscious.
I just thought about another analogy about the dreams combined with the reality: it might be a “war” (in the Unconscious) between Athena and Aphrodite (and that naughty Cupid). As we discussed before, no god/goddess can be killed; Aphrodite would live 🆎 eternally, so Athena and Cupid’s blind arrows. But gods could counterbalance effects of other gods “mischiefs”, as Greek Mythology tells.
So I can see limerence as this blind arrow shot at and stuck in limerent’s system and inflicts huge pains, short of long, on its bearer. Fickle Aphrodites couldn’t care less before she moves to her next target (her only long term mighty lover is Aries). Athena can’t kill Aphrodite but can help take that arrow (LE) out of limerent’s system.
Now in some cases, the arrow (LE) is mostly gone, but a splinter or two is still left inside the “body” — the tiny bishop (LO or LE). The Unconscious knows it and of courses wants to get rid of its annoyance completely, even if the pain is mild or tolerable; it still affects quality of the limerent’s physical and mental life — it distract one’s focus on other life matters!
To get rid of that leftover splinter, only T and F or the two combined is still not enough (in my case); the complete removal needs to take place in the subconscious level. If lucky, with a benevolent, external hand (fate sent?), dreams, parts of Self, could be “provoked/activated” to do their final work….
That’s just my envision this morning after reading the flood of posts… Time would tell if it’s an accurate envision or another idealized delusion…
PS. 🚜, I might have to stop using your symbol here because Google is now feeding me ads for farm equipment rental! 😂
🚜 🌽,
I actually watched the entire 9-hour video, quite fascinating. I double you’d ever have time to watch it through. (Btw, you didn’t finish “War and Peace” mini series, right?)
https://youtu.be/2AGJJ7W_XX4?si=t53Dk5-PfLC9x9E3 — “the Way of the dreams”.
I get very serious when I want to learn about something, time has rarely been my issue. My Unconscious is the biggest dilemma in my life, due to many life experiences, unimaginable to an normal Western 👁️
It’s good that when you get so into something, you will invest the time to watch the lot.
Time is my biggest enemy as you know (especially while my energy has been depleted – sleeping a lot more). Yes, I know only I can change it. But no, to your question, I didn’t finish War and Peace. I watched a couple, really enjoyed them, but parked it when I went back to work thinking ‘I’ll get back to that soon’ and then just haven’t yet – I hope to sometime though. I like to do things well (with full attention) or not at all – I’m not good at multi-tasking!
Hey, I gather from things you’ve said that I’m not the only 👨🌾 or 🚜 who’s ever held a liking for 🍧😜
Don’t worry, I just need to stick something like “What is …” into Google to start a search and it autocompletes on cue with “What is the perfect trifle?”
🌽🎩,
Ha, you’re pulling my leg!
“Where to find…”, “How to draw…”, “How many ounces in…”, “What is the net worth of…”, “Who is dating…”, “Cuando juega…”
“…the perfect trifle”! 😜
It would probably be funnier if I was pulling your leg. But no – just as much as Google thinks you like heavy duty farm equipment, so it is also convinced I like my fruit, custard, cream and sponge desserts.
You lost me for a while at “Cuando juega” but Google kind of solved it for me 😂
I seem to be monopolizing the Coffeehouse this weekend. It’s Easter and I am at loose ends. I used to enjoy celebrating with my children, but they have all moved out of state, and I haven’t seen any of them in years. If LO were nearby, I would probably take him something sweet and maybe a balloon, but he is in Europe for one more week.
I will say that this used to be a very sad holiday for me, but I am doing okay. I am entertaining myself hanging out with my guinea pig and doing some light housework. I am grateful for all of you here.
I am very grateful to be able to entertain myself.
“I am entertaining myself hanging out with my guinea pig”
@ND
It’s the little things that sometimes give us great satisfaction. One of Ex Gfs had a guinea pig. Her and her Daughter loved small animals.
Today, in addition to being Easter, I removed leaves out of my landscape beds.. I feel much better now that the wind is blowing them out of my yard and down the street tonight..
To MJ:
My guinea pig is suffering from a condition called Bumblefoot which can be fatal. We have been to the vet twice, and happily, he is recovering slowly.
Having to give him treatments two or three times a day makes me feel useful. Obviously I hate it that he is ailing, but I am very devoted to his care and am delighted to see the slow but steady improvement in his condition.
He is a hairless pig and resembles a tiny hippopotamus.
I can see a few uses for AI in therapy.
Insurance companies might use it to code a patient for claims. A therapist once told me that Insurance companies like specific codes. “Unspecified anxiety and depression” is pretty vague. It’s patients who don’t like labels. Some of them carry hefty stigma.
AI could also be useful in screening patients for a referral to a therapist who is more experienced. AI might also refer a patient to a psychiatrist.
Hi all!
Just stumbled here. I’m not sure I ever quite had a label for my pattern of feelings before this. I guess I’m a limerent. I don’t think I have it quite as badly as some I see here. I rather enjoy having a crush, which doesn’t happen all that often anymore. Many years in between. I don’t feel required to act as I have learned that the euphoria wears off as the relationship deepens and reality and time wear on. So I just… enjoy that I can occasionally feel that way and dance in daydreams and possibilities. Or are you only a limerent if you feel hamstringed by your desires?
I am hardly an expert, but if it’s not interfering with your life, I don’t see it as much of a problem. My issue is having obsessive thoughts about the person and grieving over the hopelessness of it all.
If it’s not intense enough to cause you pain, you might as well enjoy it.
Welcome fellow (possibly) limerent noob.
I watched a video the other day where a psychologist described it as a harmful addiction to love.
There’s a test on this site that should give you a pretty good idea.
@B
To me— and I can speak only from my own experience…No. It doesn’t sound like limerence…*yet*.
It sounds like you can handle it, and are even enjoying it. In my experience, limerence is a horrible, horrible experience. It’s not a “crush”. It’s a point beyond that. It’s like a really dark and dismaying turn that a perfectly normal crush or intense friendship takes.
It’s much, much worse. It doesn’t wear off. Yes, the beginning feels like a crush, and probably is. But then, it becomes…a kind of addiction to the attention of that person. No one else, nothing else, will do. You are preoccupied with the person constantly. You are a shell. You become *profoundly* emotionally disregulated.
Most limerents I have spoken with say it’s one of the worst things than has ever happened to them. If your “crush” is taking over your life, your sense of self, and has depleted you to the point of bottoming out, then yep, it’s limerence. But I think if you’re not sure, then no, it’s probably not.
I’d be interested to see what others here think….
That sounds about right. I wouldn’t say it’s always a horrible experience, especially if there’s a realistic shot you can be with your LO and you’re both available… provided you can stay stabilized and grounded (though most of my LEs were horrible and a COLOSSAL waste of time).
Haha @limerence front
That is the best name ever!
Yeah to me mutual limerence isn’t limerence. I guess to me what makes it limerence is that it’s an exclusively private hell. Only one member in that club, the limerent.
To me, what makes limerence limerence if there’s no stability and no grounding. If there were, it would just be love, or affection, intimacy….but not L
I’ve been thinking about this question a lot since the “what is limerence” post! But I never tried to put my personal definition into words! 🤔
I would also describe it as total submission as a voluntary love slave(not in a kink way, but in a general masochistic way)
@csc thanks lol. I kept thinking of that song today when I would see the word ‘limerence’.
Been mulling it over, that is – what it means to be limerent. I think you’re right. A non delusional limerence where you escape the fantasy/ trap/loop(?) wouldn’t be limerence.
Limerence Front,
Is your name a take off on the song “Eminence Front” by The Who?
@Marcia indeed it is!
Limerence Front,
“@Marcia indeed it is!”
LOVE THAT SONG! 🙂
It is a fantastic song, but I think I like it even better with the word limerence in there haha – thank you for making me laugh! :)))
…i love the beginning of that song…all the little notes overlapping.
yeah, i feel like there are…lots of things that orbit *around* L (the glimmer, the mixed signals, the unrequitedness, the infatuation part…all that), but the *L* itself is like this very specific thing. it’s like a thing…at the core. a core thing.
i believe it was MJ paraphrasing Sammy (and now me paraphrasing them both!)
the limerent just knows….something is very, very wrong.
and jmmo thank you- unfortunately you and i probably have had waaaay too much time to really ponder this in the past few weeks….aaaagh.
x csc
Csc
“See the post” I meant 🙄🤦🏼♂️
I think that csc has got it absolutely spot on, in both posts. “Your own private hell” sums it up perfectly. You feel that it’s impossible to function without being near, or feeling that you’re near (through calls, messages, even social media stalking) the object of your desire. It’s not a crush. It feels like it to begin with, but it becomes an all-consuming obsession. You don’t realise you’re in it at first, and by the time you do you’ve often worked out that you’re unhappy. And that usually gets worse. It is, as my dear friend csc says, one worst emotional and psychological experiences of my life.
@jmmo
just checking on youuuuu. how are you today, dear jmmo?
i got triggered on the subway when i saw someone who had a similar pair of pants on as LO used to wear. they were really nothing like his pants, but, close enough, a similar silhouette. anyway, after a brief descent into despair, doubt, and world’s smallest, quickest existential breakdown, i am recovered enough to be upright, dry-eyed, and pretending to do my work!
:))
i hope all’s well, and if not well, then i hope it’s not too awful!
hugs jmmo, you hang in there.
csc
@csc
Thank you again for thinking of me and taking the time to write ☺️
In the last few days I appear to be in transition from anger, which is a good thing. However, it has apparently been replaced with huge anxiety almost every time I think about her – which I still am far more than I would like. The thoughts are fairly neutral – not pleasant or unpleasant – although I am able to remind myself why this has ended up the way it has. There are occasions when I miss the laughs we had, her popping by my office, or the sound of her voice on the phone. But I do keep telling myself that was only a small part of the LE story, that it was those things I needed to stop because the trade off was too great.
So, at the moment, anxiety appears to be my prominent emotion. I don’t think it helps that I know she’ll be back to work next week – and although I can avoid her for 98% of the time, I am actually scared about how I will cope with her being on the premises.
I’m glad you recovered from your “sighting” quickly, and I’m also glad that you allowed that small period of grief to have its say. I am thinking of you. X
Oh and yes, you and I have had waaaaay too much time to contemplate limerence !
Speak soon
Hugs JMMO x
Just putting another comment here, hoping you see it!
Hi @jmmo
Sigh! I’m so sorry to hear of your anxiety. I can definitely understand that, seeing as you know she’ll be back. That would make me very anxious, too. Not that I think anything bad will happen. I don’t think it will!….but, I definitely can see how you’d feel apprehensive. I almost wonder if it’s like…your brain repeating it’s old pattern, but on a longer wave. Like, you probably used to feel like this every day in the peak of your limerence….but now….it’s slower wave. Just a guess.
I know for me, my anxiety during Peak L was through. the. roof. then….it got kind of….slower…still very powerful though. i feel like we all train ourselves into these patterns — and i can just imagine how hard it is while the brain works to break that cycle. it probably bends that recognizable pattern into all sorts of forms, before it really gets free. (layperson neurology here…haha)
i know. i know the feeling of missing the interactions. i do, too. I know that feeling well, these days. there are so many things i’m doing that i know LO would love and be enthusiastic about. he was always happy to hear about whatever i had going on. now, it’s just me and my stuff. i am still enjoying it, but…i miss sharing it with him.
what i don’t miss is lying on my couch, crying. or wondering what every little interaction meant, or…feeling like my mind was not under my control. losing sleep, losing my appetite…feeling uncreative. i don’t miss any of that…there are soooo many things i do not miss. but somehow, the ones i DO miss are stronger memories. ughhhh! brain! come on, now!
jmmo, I don’t mean to be nosy, but I wonder, do you exercise? i am just curious. i meant to ask you the other day, but i forgot!
…as for how you will cope…i believe you will cope very well. i really do. she’ll come back, and you can tell us here how you feel when that happens. you can pour it all out, and know you have support. we all know how hard these things are, especially seeing LO after a time of real introspection and hard work, like you’ve been through.
x
csc
csc
Not nosy at all. Yes I exercise. I see a personal trainer x 2 weekly. I am however a slim man. I’m tall, but slim. Not skinny (I hate that) I do have some definition. But not that much. Genetics!
I’m telling you this because for the first time in my life it’s bothered me. I think that LO prefers stocky men. How ridiculous is me worrying about that?
Yes, exactly. It’s the same flood, it just comes at a slower pace. I know from previous LEs that it will grind to a total halt but as you know it doesn’t make the process any easier.
I’m always the same – I think we all are – wondering how we’ll survive this latest LE, when we all know full well that we will. I feel so much stronger because of you and the other friends I’ve met on this amazing site.
Dear csc, I wonder how you really are. I know that we’re at similar stages, and I think of you on your road to recovery. I think I’ve worked out that we’re separated by many, many miles. But we share the times we’ve cried and felt meaningless. I hope I can be the rock for you as you are for me.
PS: the video: yes the artwork is awful, but the message brilliant !! :-))
Jmmo x
Hi csc. I saw your kind reply last night, and I just wanted you to see that I had responded.
Hope today is kind to you
Jmmo x
hi @jmmo
thank you so much for such a kind reply to me yesterday, and asking about me. i am ok but definitely in the “grief” period. i just watched a Fenna video about it that was particularly informative… (i work by myself so i can listen to limerent content to my heart’s desire….though my studio neighbors may think i’m losing it.) according to Fenna, even tho where we are is awful, it is NORMAL and part of the process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKVqAFuHQjM
i don’t feel very strong. i feel…like i am being required to use a lot of strength, though. if that makes sense. 🙂
i too am pretty skinny. definitely not on the voluptuous side, but i am happy with what i have and would not change it. that being said…i had the same experience! and have it ongoing! when i see a younger woman who is young, gorgeous, with a killer body, i feel…well…i just feel truly bad. it isn’t like i walk around all day feeling bad about myself. and i don’t consider myself “old” at 49, but let’s face it i’m not 30. (xLO is) i get triggered thinking about what LO might like. it’s to the point where i don’t even look at some younger women if i can help it because it just feels so painful…my god. the creative ways my brain finds in attempt to completely freak me out and get me to….what? to contact him? (nope)
neurologically, apparantly, that is what my brain is trying to do…to save it’s precious energy from ever feeling uncomfortable, upset, or anything taxing…. interesting. yet awful. i feel like i’m never going to be able to look at a young man, a young woman, a pair of pants, a skateboard, a hand-tattoo, anyone wearing a hoodie…a certain species of bird…a type of pastry…my phone…the sloth emoji….a particular color purple…a type of nose…anything associated with Greece….again without being massively triggered (the list goes on)…actually, the list IS getting shorter, but these are particularly powerful ones up here.
i’m glad you exercise. for me, it’s the one thing that really does help me “escape” my limerent feelings. i feel pretty good when i’m moving around, and pretty good when i’m done. then, of course, the rest of the day is…unpredictable to say the least. but, a workout – where my heart rate goes up and i’m using my muscles – really does seem to lift my mood. there’s no down-side to it, so…that’s why i asked.
i’m glad you have a trainer, though, because one does not want to injure themselves. i have had a couple of injuries…and now that i am relying on exercise as a mood-lifter, i am trying to be especially careful to maintain things without overdoing it, so i can keep my mood-lift on the daily until i genuinely feel better…
anyway, that’s me. i’m swimming in weirdness. intermittently blue, so blue, and just floating around.
yes, thank goodness for this space, for you, and for the other limmies who are so understanding. i am also grateful for those women who have navigated all this– into a new phase of their lives. that is (i hope!) what is happening to me. 🙂
x csc
@csc
Thanks for the video. I will watch it this evening (as long as there’s no more awful artwork – in which case I shall listen 😁). I know exactly what you mean about the visual reminders. With me at the moment it’s black Jaguar cars. Naturally, every one I see is just BOUND to be LO.
As we have said, we are moving through the recovery/grieving period. What we know for sure is that we will get through it.
Do you remember a couple of weeks ago we talked about how we would both look back in our experiences and talk about them from a different perspective? I still look forward to having those conversations with you. The day is coming – even if it feels forever away.
Speak soon my dear friend. Until then I hope your day is peaceful.
Hugs, JMMO x
To csc
I’ve just watched the video that you were kind enough to send me. My goodness – yes! All of it. Exactly. She has it absolutely right about me. It confirms that I’m grieving. The guilt, the sadness, the dreams, the anxiety, the emptiness, the temptation. All of it. Thank you.
I feel blue again this morning. I know a lot of it is due to the fact that LO is back in work on Monday. I won’t see her much, but she’ll be there, in another part of the building. Invisible yet present. I think I am actually frightened. I certainly don’t feel strong either, dear csc.
I know I need to rise this out. I know I will, LEs have always ended before. I guess that we forget – block out – how painful it was, so that each time we feel like we’ve never hurt like this before. Despite knowing how miserable I was, I still am – so what was the point? (I know really 🙂 )
I hope you’re doing ok. I can feel the pain that you are still feeling too. We will get there my lovely friend.
Thoughts and hugs
JMMO x
Hi csc
I just wanted you to see it out re the video you sent me x
JMMO x
Since this is a coffeehouse, I’ll post this here…
My wife’s mother is having health problems. So, after 21 years, we’re moving back across the country. This will put me within 350 miles of the last known locations of LO #2 and LO #4.
Even funnier, LO #2’s step-son does/used to live in the same town we’re moving back to.
Who says that God doesn’t have a sense of humor?
Does this geographical move make you feel psychologically closer to LO #2 and Lo #4 again? Or it will trigger you to think about them or slip back to the past LE with them?
I doubt it. There’s no association with my XLOs with this area. This area belongs to my wife. If the XLOs are still where they were the last time I looked, we’re on opposite sides of the state.
It’s just ironic that I’m ending up back here. If it wasn’t for my M-I-L, we wouldn’t have come back at all. Our post-retirement plans would likely have taken us further away.
I’ve often thought to myself God must be a Comedian. Or just likes to change the channel when I least expect it. I could come up with 100 different scenarios I think might eventually pan-out with LF. Then just somehow she’ll play out the 101st scenario I never even considered..
It’s kinda like when you said LOs often go off script. Never seems to fail.
Best thing to do with past LOs is keep them in the past! No recycling! Let sleeping dogs lie! 😀 They’re ex-LOs for a reason.
For sure!
They’ve been well-behaved for a long time now. Once I make the move, even if they wanted to come out of the woodwork, it will take awhile for the search engines to catch up with me.
LE,
“They’ve been well-behaved for a long time now. ”
YOU need to be well-behaved! 🙂
There’s nothing to be gained from contacting an ex. IMO
Marcia,
I totally agree. I have no intention of contacting them.
I’m firmly in the ” Exes are exes for a reason” camp whether they’re LOs or not.
LE,
“I totally agree. I have no intention of contacting them.”
I was referring more to the scenario of them contacting you. Maybe not super likely but you never know. People are unpredictable.
Marcia,
I think I’m pretty bulletproof.
LE,
“I think I’m pretty bulletproof.”
Good. I don’t know what I would do, knowing now what I’ve learned about limerence, if an ex-LO contacted me. I hope I’d ignore him but it would definitely throw me.
Marcia,
I’m at the point where there’s nothing I want to say to them and nothing I want to hear from them.
That wasn’t always the case but I’m there now.
Most of my ex-LO’s and I are friendly. Some are even on my Facebook. There is very little danger of anything sparking.
SL,
My wife didn’t like LO #2 37 years ago. She didn’t like LO #2 any better 12 years ago when LO #2 sent the FB friend request.
She saw LO #4 as a threat.
I have no place for an XLO in my life. LO is a label, it’s not a position. It took a lot of work to get where I am now.
If they reappeared, it would be easy to keep them out. But, it would cause trouble I’d prefer to avoid.
LE,
“I’m at the point where there’s nothing I want to say to them and nothing I want to hear from them.”
I have nothing to say to mine but I don’t know how I’d react if they had something to say to me. One sent me a social media join request a few years ago. I accepted it and he never reached out further. I though it was kind of obnoxious. To reappear 10+ years later but make no attempt to actually communicate with me.
Thinking about it in retrospect, he probably was looking up exes during covid in a moment of boredom. So not exactly flattering.
Marcia,
“I have nothing to say to mine but I don’t know how I’d react if they had something to say to me.”
When I first started digging into all this with my friend, the LCSW who knew LO #2 when we were dating asked what my response would be if LO #2 and I ran into each other at the airport and she said that she still loved me and the biggest mistake she ever made was letting me get away.
My response at the time was that I hoped that meeting would never happen.
After that, I kind of hoped that the meeting would happen because I would give it to LO #2 with both barrels.
Now, I don’t think I’d hang around long enough for her to finish the sentence.
LE,
“I ran into each other at the airport and she said that she still loved me and the biggest mistake she ever made was letting me get away.”
I have a hard time imagining someone breaking out with that in a quick airport run-in after not seeing you for 30 years.
I was never expecting something heavy like that with the ex-LO who social-media requested me.
“After that, I kind of hoped that the meeting would happen because I would give it to LO #2 with both barrels.”
You make a lot of battle references, do you know that? 🙂 I wasn’t in any battle with him. I just don’t have anything to say to him. He didn’t want what I wanted. Wanted a much more casual relationship than I did. When that’s the case, there’s not much to talk about. There was no need to reconnect unless he changed his mind. Which was unlikely. And I knew that. So I couldn’t figure out why he was contacting me. And for a couple of days, it bothered me.
Dear all,
LE and Marcia, this is intruding on your convo a bit but I have a bit of an update:
LO contacted me requesting to be a friend on social media. It happened months ago – I don’t use social media very much so I wasn’t logged in and never noticed. This is weird because our relationship has been all work based – no niceties, really. So I was super-surprised to discover the request.
“So I couldn’t figure out why he was contacting me. And for a couple of days, it bothered me.”
Marcia, about your xLO contacting you and then never following up. Could it be that he is someone who uses it so rarely that he logged in, got a suggestion ‘people you might know’ sort of thing, then clicked on it, logged out and forgot all about it? Its plausible? I am guilty of this myself, though not in such a ‘loaded’ situation. I do remember and old crush of mine sent a request years ago after he had moved away and we were both married. There was a friend request, then nothing. I was knee-deep in my own stuff and wondered about it but never reached out to him either?
This latest friend request threw me for a bit of a loop, I must say.
Sorry, I read that back and realised that it needs a bit of fleshing-out.
“I do remember and old crush of mine sent a request years ago after he had moved away and we were both married. There was a friend request, then nothing. I was knee-deep in my own stuff and wondered about it but never reached out to him either?
This latest friend request threw me for a bit of a loop, I must say.”
So, the crush from years ago was someone I was mad for when I was in college. He was in a relationship. My relationship was coming to the end of the road. At some point – we were both on a break (as they say) and got together. It happened a few times then nothing came of it – both of us were coming to the end of long-term college relationship, so I don’t think anyone was too cut-up about it. Him reached out years later (I accepted his friend request but we weren’t ‘friends’ otherwise) was odd, I thought, but I accepted it. Now that I think of it, we probably interacted once or twice and that was it. We are still FB friends!
My LO’s request sat unanswered for several months as I didn’t know it was there. Yikes!!
Bewitched,
“Marcia, about your xLO contacting you and then never following up. Could it be that he is someone who uses it so rarely that he logged in, got a suggestion ‘people you might know’ sort of thing, then clicked on it, logged out and forgot all about it? Its plausible? ”
It was LinkedIn. I’m pretty sure he’d have gotten an email when I accepted him into my network, though it’s been a while since I’ve used the site. I don’t have a profile on there anymore. I got an email when he made the request. I had another ex send me a “can I join your network” request (also through LinkedIn). It came through my email, and when I accepted it, he started messaging me through the site almost immediately. I was again alerted in my email.
So did you accept the request from your LO?
The first guy I mentioned was an LO who I dated. The second was not an LO but a guy I had a thing for and we had a casual thing for a short time. In those circumstances, I really didn’t want to hear from either one unless they had romantic/sexual interest. And the second one … we messaged a bit and then he fell off the planet. He wanted the attention. That was obnoxious to reappear after … 2 years?
Marcia,
You’re correct. I do make a lot of battle references. That’s because I was in the military and many of the exchanges were confrontations. There is no other way to describe them.
I’m not conflict avoidant nor do I look for conflict for it’s own sake. I fight when I think it’s necessary.
You fight for different reasons with people you care about.
You fight alongside people you care about when they need you.
You fight with people you care about when there’s an issue that needs to be dealt with. It’s how you fight this one that makes a difference.
You fight for the relationship until you lose hope it will improve.
I have limits. LO #2 hit them and I had no qualms about letting her know. Like the Kohut video I posted earlier says,, if you want to put the “right dig in, you have to know them.” I knew where the chinks in LO #2’s armor were and if fate hadn’t intervened, I would have taken her out. My wife said that I can go after people with surgical precision and it’s not one of my more endearing qualities.
WRT LO #4: I confronted her head on. I know that I shouldn’t have been doing it at all but it shows how deep in the weeds we were. I didn’t break NC after 3 months, she did. I didn’t send an FB request to keep the line open, she did.
Conflict and confrontation have their uses. My bet is the majority of posters aren’t that deep in the weeds with their LOs but I was.
My LO3 (last before the recent one – the clean break) did a circle back just like that – friend requested after a year or two, hung around for a few months then unfriended me!
Bewitched, limerence (even old) might have you overthink the length of time the request sat there. The non response is ambiguous enough to mean “I don’t check social media” (truth), “we’re just work colleagues”, “i think accepting isn’t a good idea”etc, but he’ll never know the real reason unless you tell him (one of those things we say ‘futile’ about). Don’t accept him if it will set you back in any way or give a temptation to look him up / interact in a different way that you don’t want. Loads of people ignore loads of SM friend requests.
LE,
“Conflict and confrontation have their uses. ”
I guess. I just don’t know why the language you use is so combative to describe your interactions with people. IMO … you can discuss the relationship, you can try to improve it, you can be very clear about what you need and try to find out what they need (sometimes they don’t know or can’t/won’t articulate it)… but ultimately, people are who they are. They’re going to give you what they’re going to give you and they’re going to do what they’re going to do.
With the LO who I dated … I did have “the conversation” about what was going on, about what he wanted from me … but once he was clear it was so much less than what I wanted, was there a point in having another conversation (conflict/confrontation, however you want to define it)?
I guess we all have different experiences with ex-LOs and feel different towards them. I am very good friends with one ex-LO and acquaintances with another. I don’t see any chance of limerence being rekindled with either of them. I still find LO #2 attractive. If I was single and she was interested, I wouldn’t say no (friendship or not), but I can’t see me ever being limerent for her again. If my marriage ended, I’m not sure I would even go on a date with LO #1. She’s alright I guess, but she is almost in the “What the hell was I thinking?” category at this point. Low danger I guess, but others might be in a different situation with their former LOs.
Vicarious L,
“I guess, but she is almost in the “What the hell was I thinking?” category at this point. Low danger I guess, but others might be in a different situation with their former LOs.”
I definitely have the “what the hell was I thinking” with, well, all my past LOs! But it’s more … why did I get so fixated for so long on someone? Why did I waste my time? But I don’t know, if I ran into them again (I haven’t seen any of them for years) … if I’d still find them appealing. With the exception of the one who became a serious boyfriend. Because I got to know him! I could see him clearly. 🙂
Hey Marcia,
“It was LinkedIn. I’m pretty sure he’d have gotten an email when I accepted him into my network”
I can confirm that LinkedIn lets you know when a request to connect has been accepted. I still use LinkedIn, but passively – the usual routine is that I accept requests (from younger colleagues keen to grow their networks) but then close it up and forget about it each time. Its not super-popular in my field. But last week, I had reason to reconnect with someone as I needed info from him – which is why I know an email is sent on acceptance, as its so recent. Remaining plausible explanations would be LinkedIn account is registered to your junk email account that is only used for internet shopping??
I would never connect with
Someone romantically on LinkedIn. Its way too work-y?
And yeah, getting in touch on LinkedIn for no reason 2 years after a fling is a bit obnoxious!
I did indeed accept my LOs request. Yikes and what am I thinking. My reason was a combination of “I’m totally over this, lets go for coffee” and my White Dame Complex.
There were a couple of other reasons why I thought it wouldn’t matter, but I’ve forgotten them now. I feel like neither of us are FB users so it will not be a constant thing like Whatsapp or Insta but more an occasional silent drive-by, at most. Dont forget I have been to his house so have zero curiosity about that side. I am a bit shocked that he started it, but I suppose its no big deal?
It might be okay?
Bewitched,
It’s ok, I think! There could be very different states of mind why he sent you a friend request. People have a very different attitude to social media. While some really think about if they want to be friends with them, some just add and accept randomly, even people they don’t know at all. Could be that he wants to connect more privately (but then something would follow, I guess), could also be that he‘s on 799 friends and wants to make it to 800😂
I don’t know, but you cannot know either, and I would advise to choose the option that’s best for your peace of mind- I’d say, he likes you, as you know, and this is an innocent request as he has all people as FB friends he likes remotely, nothing more.
Are you following each other on Insta?
Dear Mila,
I am not on Insta and I dont know about him.
I have thinking about it overnight and I agree that it will be okay. LO and I still have work contact, after all, we are not in an ‘NC’ situation, or at the stage where connecting on any level would be detrimental to recovery.
LaR also mentioned that its common for friend requests to sit there for months. Some people just don’t use social media much and I think many people have actively gone off these SM corporations so are weaning off for principled reasons. The reason I mentioned ‘Yikes’ and that I was shocked was because I had been under the impression that LO and myself had mutually decided to reduce contact? The last time I saw him in person was about a year ago (at his house) and it was very calm, friendly and more or less a goodbye of sorts, in my mind. Though we have had plenty work contact in the meantime, along with a few more personal contact messages (just me and him messages without anybody else have always been rare). But that’s all been through work channels and not social media.
I might be imagining the mutual dial-down, though. I probably am. And in my present state of mind it doesn’t even matter? I was slightly concerned at the amount of thought and rumination I gave to the friend request, including what it signified. But it doesn’t seem to be keeping me awake at night and I’m aware that I’ll never know what it signifies and that it doesn’t matter anyway (👋LaR).
Mila, I hope that your xLO doesnt annoy you on your upcoming work trip. What I imagine is that you are his ‘saviour’ on such trips as you help him to overcome his social awkwardness. I think we all feel awkward to some extent in these situations – that sensation of not wanting to walk into a room on your own and having a ‘wingwoman’ by your side 😅. As long as the gathering turns out to be fun and non-threatening in the social sense, we can easily let go of that person’s hand and start to enjoy ourselves on our own. The more fun and friendly the occasion, the faster we can let go. I guess your xLO takes a little longer to let go and also depends on you a little bit too much. And he doesn’t have the social circle that you do to ease these occasions. I think that we should only do what we want to do for others, otherwise we risk feeling resentful afterwards (which is like a double loss and completely counter-productive).
🅱️🧙 & 🔥 🍊 🍷,
Sorry to cut into your conversation, I had an off-hour sleeping evening again and has been working on exams since 2am…
“I think that we should only do what we want to do for others, otherwise we risk feeling resentful afterwards”
If “others” are your good/close friends and what you want to do for them is not what they want, then what? and what they wish (not demanding) you could do for them is not exactly your cup of tea but you could manage it, then would you do it for your friends’ sake?
The phrase, “only do what we want to for others” seems to indicate (for me) that “others” here are not good friends.
Now question is, is Mila’s xLO still a good friend or off her chart of friends? Perhaps that’s the source of Mila’s resentment? It’s so much easier not to deal with xLO at all, but you both still need to due to work.
Of course, there is a limit to do things for friends’ sake, one would not help friends break any form of laws. In COO, really good friends always willingly help take care of each others’ affairs as their “own”, which usually occurs between same sex/gender.
When the opposite sex is involved, things get complicated, due to its “macho” culture and a certain amount of distracting attraction underneath the surface (like what LaR is concerned)….
Hi Bewitched,
I think it’s tricky to assume silent mutual agreements with LOs. He might be completely unaware of that. Maybe he noticed some dialing down on your part and went the same way, but without thinking it was an agreement or a decision.
You are right with requests sitting for a while, depending also how people set their settings and notifications. I‘m on Facebook and Instagram, and Instagram is much busier, people interact more etc. With many of my Facebook friends I haven’t had any contact since getting „friends“. It’s still a way to keep a connection, and one that doesn’t have to do with work.
You haven’t seen him face to face since that invitation to your house? Wow, that’s quite a time! Is there any sure date when you will meet f2f in the future?
While you are right that I‘m XLOs entry to some social gatherings at these work trips, it’s not quite how you describe it.
I think if it would go the way he likes it, we would spend most of the time together like some sort of couple. He doesn’t cope well with many people at the same time, the social stuff exhausts him a bit, he likes it but only here and there, and sometimes he endures it because I’m there.
That sounds sweet and is a also somehow sweet, but on the other hand also not.
That’s my problem of view: is it sweet that he wants to spend almost all the time with me and endures parties just because he wants to be with me? It is kind of true, but it is also true that he is used to his routine, and his mind has settled on me as companion, so I have to be with him all the time because then his routine is secured. I sometimes felt like his second wife, and didn’t like it one bit, even when limerent, because it also meant taking me for granted.
So, I’m still his friend (@Snow)but don’t want to be a very close friend any more, and I think it’s too much expected of a normal friend to spend all the time on a work trip together, push him on every social gathering I’m invited to etc. Of course I‘ll spend time with him, but I won’t go out of my way for him any more.
Like, he asked now if I’d go with him on a side trip on a free day. I didn’t respond enthusiastically because he wants to go somewhere he likes to visit, but I’m not that much interested in. I said I’m not that interested in the site but I’ll think about it. I‘ve got the feeling that now he is miffed (complicated to explain, but has something to do with liking of social media posts- I warn you to enter that special hell if engaging too much in social media😆)
Of course, in limerent times I probably would have gone with him, but now I won’t.
I don’t feel bad about that at all.
But I still feel bad about the overall resenting view of him. Sometimes it’s like a switch turned, and I can see him as the sweet person I thought he was and he probably is in some ways. But then I come back to the view that he’s just after validation and routine with me. It’s hard to say which view is exaggerated or more true.
I just leave it be for now, simply because I cannot be bothered any more to waste energy on that subject, and will just see how it feels f2f. It’s still a few weeks to go.
Bewitched,
Remaining plausible explanations would be LinkedIn account is registered to your junk email account that is only used for internet shopping??
Nah. He had no intention of making more conversation beyond the “join your network” request. Why even do that much … I have no idea. My profile was public. If he was curious what I was up to, at least professionally, it was all there. The behavior fit in with what he did when we were dating. He’d reach out, just a bit, dipping his toe in the water, and then … stop. NOTHING HAD CHANGED! He was the same person!
The other one did more … laid on the compliments and the “I miss you” b.s. It was wildly exciting for about 2 days. I giggled like a teenager with every communication. And then … the sinking feeling as the communication slowly ground to a halt. I expected it. He’d done that — reappear, disappear — when we were seeing each other. It’s always the one you want who pull this crap. 🙂
“My reason was a combination of “I’m totally over this, lets go for coffee” and my White Dame Complex.”
See, I would have accepted it just because not accepting it may look like he got to me. And I’d be damned if I let him know he got to me. 🙂 But that’s my ego talking. What is a White Dame Complex?
“Don’t forget I have been to his house so have zero curiosity about that side.”
Not sure what you mean.
” I am a bit shocked that he started it, but I suppose its no big deal?”
Have you had communication since you accepted his request? Forgive me in that I don’t remember the whole story of your LO.
@Marcia,
I completely missed this reply from you to an old comment.
“He’d reach out, just a bit, dipping his toe in the water, and then … stop”
Its so vexing when this happens. I am married so out of that loop but I so remember this from when I was single. You are right that its always the ones you really really want who either do this, or who give lots of encouragement and disappear. Maybe uncertainty ramps it up? I had one who did this to me for years. Funny thing, we recently started working together, twenty years later, which was bit of a head-wreck for about 5 minutes when it happened – but I don’t allow myself to think about it. My old college friends are all agog as they remember what a candle I held for him, for YEARS 😂
“The other one did more … laid on the compliments and the “I miss you” b.s. It was wildly exciting for about 2 days. I giggled like a teenager with every communication. And then … the sinking feeling as the communication slowly ground to a halt. I expected it. He’d done that — reappear, disappear — when we were seeing each other. It’s always the one you want who pull this crap. ”
Totally!
““My reason was a combination of “I’m totally over this, lets go for coffee” and my White Dame Complex.”
See, I would have accepted it just because not accepting it may look like he got to me. And I’d be damned if I let him know he got to me. But that’s my ego talking. What is a White Dame Complex?”
Ha ha, I am exactly the same. I forgot all about my ego, but that also played a huge part – thanks for the reminder! Its so important to me that I don’t let my guard down. But having said that, I am probably leaking like a sieve.
The “White Dame Complex” is the female version of the “White Knight” riding to the rescue, etc.
“Don’t forget I have been to his house so have zero curiosity about that side.”
Not sure what you mean.
I mean that I didn’t want to accept the SM request just so that I could cyber-stalk him. I’d be too proud to do that anyway (see previous paragraph 🤣)
” I am a bit shocked that he started it, but I suppose its no big deal?”
Have you had communication since you accepted his request? Forgive me in that I don’t remember the whole story of your LO
No communication yet, which is probably a good thing.
Being coffeehouse, I thought I would post a bit of an update on my situation.
Some of you may recall that I saw my LO (#3) for the first time in several months at a wedding a few months back. It was a mixed bag in terms of the way she acted towards me (weirdly enough, I actually ended up confiding in LO #2 about LO #3, and she referred to it as “hot and cold behaviour”). I saw LO #3 about a month ago and again this past weekend.
The situation was very odd a month back because I had a fantastic opportunity that I didn’t capitalize on. I kicked myself about it later. LO #3 was actually out with a different bunch of friends than I was, but her crowd was sitting just next to ours. I am friends with a few of the people she was out with as well. The odd thing was that people were essentially ignoring LO #3 (including her best friend). I did say hello, but she spent most of her time sitting off on her own. Her best friend asked her if she was alright sitting all by herself (I got a feeling she was saying that for my benefit, but I might just be a pompous ass thinking that). I did talk to her a little bit, and I stood by her while I talked to others. I tried to get her involved in the conversation, and hovered near her and spoke loudly enough so she could participate too (she even laughed at a couple of things I said). But I was definitely standoffish and so was she. At the end of the night she hugged me, but she made a point of hugging me last and saying something like she had almost forgotten to say goodbye to me.
I was feeling shy at least partially because my close friend had been an idiot and caused some drama within our group. I thought she might be judging me for that or possibly even judging me for not taking his side and appearing to be two-faced towards him. I was also slightly miffed at her and her best friend thinking my daughter was my actual date at the wedding. But somehow I think there was even more to it than that. A mutual female friend was surprised I was so shy with LO #3 but she did admit it was understandable under the circumstances (she also jokingly simulated oral sex with her mouth and motioned towards LO #3, which was hilarious). I stewed about it for days and actually ended up messaging LO #3 about it and apologized for being so shy. She told me it was fine and that she was really tired that night.
After that was my birthday weekend, and I mentioned in our group chat about some struggles I’m dealing with for my ailing father who was hospitalized twice recently. Other people who don’t know me nearly as well as LO #3 wished me a happy birthday and expressed their best wishes for my father. But nothing from LO #3. We had a birthday celebration for me and for another friend, but no mention of her joining us either. I was actually quite hurt by her ignoring all of this (she definitely saw the messages), but I began to feel like I was overcoming the limerence a bit. I felt like I was starting to get over her and she had done me a favour in not caring about me. I told my male friend I needed to stop obsessing over someone who wouldn’t piss on me if I was on fire, and he basically agreed.
This past weekend she showed up at a show. I wasn’t sure what to expect, but she stood right beside me the whole time (there were others around us and we talked to other people too, but she was always right there). We got along very well, and she was in a good mood. It maybe wasn’t quite as good as that fantastic night last fall, but it was still pretty good. We chatted and laughed quite a bit together. She did leave once the show was done (it finished quite early), she didn’t come out with us afterwards, and no hug this time (or for anyone else), but the night was a 7/10 in terms of my interaction with her. I was pretty happy about it, and my male friend thought it went well too. I told him it was funny after I had basically written her off. At the next bar, I saw another lady I have some glimmery feelings for, and it went quite well too, and I enjoyed both places and hanging out with both sets of friends. It was an all around very good night. I also heard from a friend that one of his female friends likes me.
My wife and I have been getting along a little better, but the fighting between her and my daughter is getting intolerable again. My wife’s nagging has been insane as well, despite the fact we aren’t fighting that much. I’m obviously back to ruminating over LO #3, but I am trying to balance that with thinking about some other women too as a sort of harm reduction strategy (their methadone to my LO’s heroin). I’ve been thinking about divorce a lot again today and have done some research. I so wish I could end my marriage and ask my LO on a date. I don’t know what her response would be, but I sometimes wish I could get rejected completely by her so I can move on. This limbo is hell. By now, many people know I like LO #3, and several of them are rooting for me. She must know I really like her too, but I can understand her reluctance to get too close to a married man. Still, I think she is moralizing a little too much since I’m not looking for anything truly inappropriate. We could be friends for now instead of just acquaintances. I did tell her I think highly of her and I wish she would come out with us more often. I know I should focus on ending my marriage first, but my wife is so damn delusional and I can’t seem to get out! I am starting to think that I wouldn’t have to be alone if I was single, even if I never end up with LO #3.
Vicarious Limerent
Thanks for posting your update. The twists and turns of these LEs are fascinating, aren’t they (and painful)! I’m not familiar with your story, but it would appear to me that LO#3 maybe is nervous about getting too close at this stage. As I say, just an opinion based on absolutely no prior knowledge of how it’s been for you so far.
What I can say – with absolute certainty – is, yes: the limbo is unbearable. You almost feel as though you’d rather it not work out than keep being in this suspended altered-reality, even though you know that that isn’t really what you want, either.
I also know what you mean about trying to distract yourself from your LO by thinking of other women as a distraction. I’ve had to go NC with my (work-based) LO which has been really difficult, with all the bouncing around of emotions amplified a thousand times. I’ve been trying to think of other women too. With varying success.
I really feel for you in your difficult situation with your SO. Limerence is hard enough to deal with without all that going on as well. I wonder if your domestic situation has fed your LEs or if it is the result.
I wish you well, please keep us updated.
Best wishes
Justmeandmyobsessions (JMMO)
@JMMO, thanks for your comments.
To make a long story short, my wife and I have been living like roommates for probably over seven years, and for four of those years I have been saying to her clearly and unequivocally that I want separation and divorce. She is often bossy, controlling, manipulative, coercive and abusive towards our daughter and me (my daughter has begged me to leave her many times). I have told her literally hundreds of times I want out, but she will never accept the end of our marriage (she has threatened suicide and to burn the house down if I ever left her). However, I don’t believe she really cares that much about me; it’s more about financial security and keeping up with the Joneses. She voices her extreme displeasure with me constantly, so I can’t see her being happy either. I know I do not need her permission for separation and divorce, but I do need her permission to sell the house, and there is barely enough money for one household, let alone two (we live in a very expensive area in terms of house prices and even rents). I feel like four years is enough time for her to mourn the end of our marriage, but every time I mention it, she puts me through hell, so I have deferred talk of separation and divorce for the time being (even though I desperately want a chance to start a new life on my own).
My limerence is definitely a symptom of our marital difficulties rather than the cause. For 20 years, I didn’t experience limerence until that fateful night over five years ago when I met a friendly stranger in a bar (LO #1). After a year or two, my limerence transferred to a good friend of mine (LO #2), and then finally to LO #3, an acquaintance and friend-of-a-friend. LO #3 is beautiful, and we have a fair bit in common. She is totally my type too (tall and curvaceous with lovely long blonde hair). She is a few years older than me but she doesn’t look it (she could pass for 15 years younger, and I’ve seen much younger men hit on her). I’ve been intrigued by her for two years and limerent for her for almost a year (after I finally got to meet her). A lot of my friends know her, but she is quite shy and private in many ways, although she is a good conversationalist and easy to talk to once you get her talking.
There has been some awkwardness between us after I thought my friend tried to set us up one time (he has pulled stunts like that several times). I mentioned it to her, but it turned out he hadn’t said anything to her about that. I told her it didn’t come from me and said I’m married and wasn’t looking for anything inappropriate. I did admit that my marriage is on the rocks and told her I’d mentioned to my friend that I think she is beautiful. LO #3 said a strange thing at that point; she mentioned that she wouldn’t do anything to lead me on. That was last summer. I was worried about seeing her after that, but to my delight, she was very friendly with me the next time (other than maybe the first hour or so which was slightly awkward). I’ve since been told LO #3 has very solid morals. I am happy about that, since I wouldn’t think nearly as highly of her if I found out otherwise. I also maintain that I will not cheat on my wife while we still live under the same roof.
The problem is I think LO #3 is taking the moralizing a little too far. I want to be friends with this lady, and I truly wouldn’t put her in an awkward position. I do not want to turn her into the other woman or a homewrecker. She can be very friendly towards me, followed by some strange standoffish behaviour. LO #3 wouldn’t even accept my Facebook friend request, although I know she is quite private about that.
Sure, I dream about ending my marriage and having a serious relationship with this lady someday. She is marriage material to me. I’m also ready to start a new life after seven years in a dead, sexless marriage and four years of reiterating that I want separation and divorce. I think LO #3 is perfect, but I do have other ladies I am interested in (no one who turns my crank or makes my heart skip a beat quite like she does though). I know that thinking of anyone else is about 10 steps ahead of where I should be right now, but I can’t help it; I’m fed up waiting. However, I can control my urges and impulses and just be friends with this fantastic lady. I just don’t know if she truly believes that. She may like me too, but I am not sure. I do feel like I need to focus on being the best version of myself before having a chance with her though, but I am committed to that.
@ Vicarious Limerent
Thanks for the reply. Your story is a fascinating one, if slightly painful to read. The trap that you are in must be awful. I really feel for you and hope that the solution presents itself to you.
Please do keep me posted. My support is firmly with you .
JMMO
No real update to my situation. I haven’t seen LO #3 since that time three weeks ago, and I’m still living in limbo with my marriage. There are a couple of milestones coming up, and I think I will need to put any talk of separation and divorce on the backburner pending those events. But I REALLY want to start a new life. This will never change, regardless of whether I’m limerent for someone or not. I have to find a way to make my wife know it’s completely hopeless and I want out at all costs. The wandering eye and the constant dreaming about something better is killing me.
I’ve told one of my friends I’m going to put my LO on the back burner, but I’m not ready to give up on her until she basically tells me she wouldn’t be interested in me if I was the last man on earth. I just can’t get over the idea that she is like heroin and anyone else is just methadone at best.
I don’t think I’m God’s gift to women, but I am pretty sure there are four or five other women who are showing me some interest. One even told my friend’s wife she has the hots for me, and she even asked her to tell me that. I was flattered but also a little taken aback and freaked out. I recently saw that lady again, but I hardly spoke to her because the situation is so awkward. She’s not bad looking, but what would I even do with this information? I can’t help but think her morals must be a bit suspect because she must know I’m married. Regardless of how unhappily married I am, there is a certain line I will not cross while I am still living under the same roof as my wife. Contrast that with my LO, who is holding back on me, wouldn’t accept my friend request and told me outright she wouldn’t do anything to lead me on. If I ever was to be in a relationship with either of these ladies in the future, I know which one I’d rather be with — the one with the solid morals. This is yet another way I pedestalize this woman though. Imagine turning her rejection around and making it into a virtue! Is that just my limerent brain, or is there something to that?
I know really religious and/or conservative people would tell me I should fix my marriage and think only about my wife. They would argue that even looking at or talking to another woman is a sin. There are people out there with this type of medieval morality, and it actually bothers me in some ways (even though I’m not religious, I won’t actually physically cheat until we’re formally separated, and I have reiterated hundreds of times to my wife that I want separation and divorce). Others would tell me that thinking of anyone else is 10 steps ahead of where I should be right now, and that I need to focus on getting out of my marriage first.
Obviously the latter perspective makes a whole lot of logical sense, but the problem is I can’t yet find a way out. I am ready to start my new life, and I have been mourning the end of my marriage for the last four years. That is long enough, and it should be long enough for my wife too. I also can’t help how I feel. Anything intimate with my wife would feel incestuous (she feels like my mother by now), and I can’t stop thinking about LO #3. Even if my marriage ended, I don’t know what normal dating would be like. Could I even get aroused for someone who isn’t LO#3? I can’t just turn off the feelings for LO #3, nor do I feel like I can go no contact (and I don’t want to because I still retain that faint hope of being with her someday). Maybe this isn’t very nice, but I’m trying to distract myself with thoughts of other women as a harm reduction strategy. It isn’t really working all that well though. Anyone else is a poor substitute and just doesn’t compare with someone who seems totally my type. I just can’t seem to get over LO #3, but do I even want to? The difference with this lady and others is I could actually imagine spending the rest of my life with her. She has a few minor flaws, but focusing on them does nothing to stop me from being interested in her; they just end up making her feel a little less out of my league, and that strategy ends up backfiring.
I feel completely stuck. Any thoughts or suggestions (other than no contact, which I’m not prepared to do) would be appreciated.
VL
Thanks for the update. It’s still a throughly horrible place for you to be in. And I totally understand why you don’t can’t go NC.
I haven’t got any suggestions, but I’m going to open it up.
Anyone – any ideas to help our friend here?
VL and Jmmo ,
I do feel for you, Vicarious Limerent, but I think I repeat myself saying that you should focus on getting out of this marriage. That’s first priority. I think it was limerent nurse who said that once she was out of her marriage (for completely different reasons, of course , but still) the limerence had an end, too. You might find that Lo3 is suddenly not that unique anymore.
But that’s not the first reason, the first reason is that you are unhappy and 100%sure you don’t want to be married to your SO any more, and that for years. I kind of don’t understand it. We are in the year 2025 and no one is forced to stay in a marriage any more. There must be ways for you to get divorced. With sacrifices, maybe, but isn’t it worth it? I mean, do you want to go in like this for the rest of your life, surely not.
Thanks Mila and JMMO.
At the heart of the problem are three things: (1) my wife is delusional and likely has some type of personality disorder; (2) house prices and rents are astronomical and we are massively in debt; and (3) family law in this jurisdiction seems a bit Puritanical in many ways. A fourth problem might be that in some ways, deep down, I think a small part of me wonders if I am the asshole in this story.
As mentioned, I know I do not need my wife’s permission to get separated or divorced, but I do need her permission to sell the house. We own this house together, and there is no way I can afford to buy or even rent anywhere else without accessing my share of the equity in our home. I could petition a court to order a sale of the house, but that is a highly adversarial act. She would destroy me if I took legal action against her while we were still living under the same roof, and there is literally nowhere else I could go.
She is vindictive and dangerous. I would worry about the living hell she would put my daughter and me through. She would likely be violent. She would likely destroy property. She would definitely destroy my reputation by telling people all of my secrets and telling them everything I ever said about them. She would make it difficult to impossible for me to do my job. She might even get me fired.
Other than cases of extreme abuse or adultery, one year of separation is required in this jurisdiction before getting a divorce. There is no money for me to just move out and get a room. I pay all of the mortgage and property tax, and if I didn’t pay it, we would lose the house. I would also need to think of my daughter, and I couldn’t leave her here with my wife. My daughter has begged me many times to leave my wife and take me with her. She has said several times, “If you don’t get me out of this toxic, abusive environment with her, I’m never going to forgive you.” When she was younger, the police and child protection authorities were at our door several times, and things aren’t much better now that she is legally an adult. Rents are astronomical, so she wouldn’t be able to leave and go off on her own either as a student who only works part-time.
My wife and I can theoretically live under the same roof and be separated in this jurisdiction, but she would do her damndest to sabotage that. There are very strict rules around in-house separation for it to count towards the one year minimum separation prior to divorce. For example, we wouldn’t be allowed to socialize together, eat meals together, have shared finances or even consider each others’ schedules. She would scream at me, “Don’t be so fucking anal!” if I tried to live according to the rules. I can’t just have an affair and get a divorce because the person having the affair can’t use adultery as a way to get a quicker divorce. As bad as things are with my wife, I don’t think they would be considered to be abusive enough to get me a quicker divorce either.
My wife is delusional. I have told her hundreds of times over the past four years that I want a divorce and will never change my mind. She won’t accept it and acts like if I don’t bring it up literally every hour that things must be better and I must have forgotten about it. She is trying to wear me down so I don’t mention separation and divorce. I don’t want to live in hell, so I have stopped talking about it for the time being. She has threatened suicide and to burn the house down. I don’t really believe she would do that, but there are other creative ways she would make me suffer (for example, she has threatened to cut me off of the car insurance, which is one of the bills she does pay). As mentioned, I could see her doing something stupid like damaging my work computer and phone (I have to work from home most of the time). We haven’t had sex in about seven years. The thought of being intimate with her makes my flesh crawl. It feels like incest. She feels like she is my mother, since she has totally dominated, controlled and emasculated me. I don’t want that back, and I don’t even want to want it back, if that makes any sense (I have even told her that). When I talk about separation, she always mentions that I promised her we would go to counselling. Then we go through this weird loop where I agree to go to counselling, but then she gets angry and says that I only want to go to counselling to facilitate a split. I agree, and then we reach an impasse, although I do tell her there might be some very, very tiny chance I could be persuaded to change my mind. Then no more is said about counselling.
Every time we talk about separation, the first thing she brings up is finances. She says how she doesn’t want to live in a shack. She almost never leads with anything about how she loves me and doesn’t want to lose me. Instead, it’s almost always about money and keeping up with the Joneses. I made her a generous financial offer of well more than half of the equity in the house. It was enough to buy a smaller, older home in the next town, which is more of a blue collar town. She could buy a semi-decent place outright or with a very small mortgage. I, on the other hand, would have a hefty mortgage, but it would be worth it for my peace of mind and so I don’t have to equalize our pensions or give her alimony/spousal support (which it doesn’t sound like I would be obligated to pay her according to the guidelines anyway). She said she doesn’t want to live in a bad neighbourhood where she would get shot (she wouldn’t), and she basically won’t settle for anything less than a nice, newer detached home in a nice area in the town we currently live in (I am fine with not having that, but she is a complete snob about these things).
In some ways, I believe the narrative that both feminist and religious types push that I am some horrible person for having a midlife crisis and wanting to end my marriage to chase after a younger/thinner/prettier woman (although my current LO is actually five years older than me). I don’t want to be that guy, and I don’t want to be perceived that way either. A small part of me wonders if maybe I am the asshole here. Should I have taken my marriage vows more seriously? Are my morals less solid than I thought. As mentioned, I am NOT religious at all. I wanted to write more, but my wife is screaming at me to come to bed immediately. This is yet another way she controls me and I hate it!
This doesn’t count as extreme abuse? You’re afraid even to leave her because of what she might do….I wonder if maybe a domestic abuse shelter or hotline could help and advise you.
I’ve encountered that kind of religious type, too. It’s part of the reason why people still feel trapped in marriages in 2025. 😛
I’ve seen it online in comment sections, too: On the one hand, they skewer people for having affairs, and say they should get divorced first. But then when the person DOES get divorced so they can pursue someone they really love, they get criticized for not working on the marriage. 😛
Hi Vicarious Limerent,
I couldn’t read your post and not comment.
I’m so sorry that you are in this situation. It definitely sounds like an abusive marriage to me. I live in another country, so I’m not sure what support is out there (especially as most of these organisations are aimed towards women) but I am sure there must be an organisation around for you somewhere. I urge you look into this if you feel like you are able to.
I would say that I think you need to focus of leaving your marriage before you make any further decisions about your LO’s. LE’s are formed as a way of escaping reality and I think you need some time to figure out your true feelings first.
Please continue to keep us updated. There’s lots of support here at LwL.
You truly deserve to be happy.
@Serial Limerent and @Cat, thank you. The idea that I am actually experiencing extreme abuse is food for thought. It likely might not rise to that level, but clearly the status quo is untenable. I need to get out. The thing that sucks is my wife just pressured me into making summer vacation plans. I hate making plans for the future with her because I don’t actually want a future with her, but I figure it’s only a couple of months away and I’m unlikely to be able to make a change by then. But maybe I should at least be making plans and working towards that future?
I know that it makes logical sense to say I should focus on getting out of my marriage rather than ruminating about my LO or anyone else, but I am reminded of the reason for the existence of this community. Most of us are on here precisely because we can’t just “get over it” and focus on other things. I appreciate the sentiment, but saying I should focus on ending my marriage rather than ruminating about my LO is easier said than done, even if it does make logical sense. I do agree with Dr. L’s focus on purposeful living. My purposeful living can focus on exercise, weight loss, catching up at work, improving my finances and getting household and family projects accomplished. It won’t take my mind completely off my LO, but it should help.
As mentioned above, I can’t go no contact because I do actually want to keep this lady in my life, and to cut her out completely would also require me to cut most of my friends out of my life as well, and I need them in my life because they are my lifeline right now.
I know thinking of other women might not be the best strategy either, but it might help as a harm reduction strategy (it did in the past when my “glimmery friend” was flirting with me). Who knows what the future might bring? Logically, I know I am unlikely to ever end up with my LO, so realizing there are other fish in the sea might actually be helpful as something to think about for the future. No one else gives me the same feelings as LO #3, but as mentioned, there are a few women who have shown me interest recently. Surprisingly, someone new is giving me some glimmer. She is getting quite a bit friendlier towards me and I’ve heard really good things about this lady. I’m not trying for anything truly inappropriate while I’m still with my wife, but I don’t see anything wrong with getting to know her as a friend for the time being. Apparently, her ex looks just like me, and whenever I look over at her I see her checking me out too. It’s weird because she is very different from me, but maybe opposites attract? Again, I know it is really too early to be thinking of anyone else, but I feel like I need to have some hopes and dreams for a better future.
VL,
I know we don’t chat much but I’ve always been drawn to your story. I’ve tried my best to follow it over time but sometimes that’s difficult with the forum setup here and how posts get lost in the fray. I’m not on as much these days.
Awhile ago I looked back at older posts and saw you were posting here years ago with somewhat the same issues then. I commend you for the work you do quietly behind the scenes. I know it can’t be easy at all in your situation. I’m sorry you are going through what you are going through. Divorce does infact suck. Your SO seems so toxic. My hats off to you for putting up with it for so long.
Recently I’ve had some bad luck with a particular Lady friend from work and it’s brought me down again. I wouldn’t say she’s made me sad as say, at the height of my LE with LO, but the situation has brought me to a low place again. Going on for almost 2 months now.
A buddy asked me not too long ago how long do I want to keep being down about this situation and I had really no good answer. I kinda feel like she brought it on herself by her own dishonesty. Yet I too know I didn’t play my cards all right with her either..
It just really makes me think sometimes about what my Buddy was trying to help me out with and how much I long to move beyond so much of what brings me down. It doesn’t help I have a sick and dying Father I’m dealing with too. It’s sad and overwhelming quite often. There is nothing I can really do but just be there.
Yet I’ll ask you the same question because I care. How long do you really want to keep feeling this way? Your situation seems untenable by every stretch and means. No wonder you’re limerent, but there has to be something better though right??
I guess if we keep on repeating that, something great will happen eventually, right?? I’ve often heard God will not give us any more than we can handle..
“But I REALLY want to start a new life. This will never change, regardless of whether I’m limerent for someone or not.”
There it is, @VL
I am facing the same, in my own life. I need to leave. I do not have toxic SO, but, I have not been happy for a long time. It is, at heart, not about the SO at all. It is about me. I am not happy. SO could be the most pleasant, lovely person, if I’m not happy, it’s not gonna work.
You wonder how to leave your marriage. I am not an expert, and have not done this myself…but I am coming down to this: You leave.
One day, you walk in, knowing it will be hard, a very hard conversation or confrontation. As kindly as possible, you say something that makes it clear — “I will be leaving. It is not up for discussion. Staying is not something I can do. Goodbye.”
You give this a *great deal of thought before*. You are prepared to cement this decision. Have a place to go, have your list of things you’ll need to deal with, resources you may need to make sure are taken care of for you, maybe even for your wife (and kids if needed.) You stick to your script, you stay focused. It may take some time to get your ducks in order, but get them in order.
Then, you walk out. This is not a moment of malice or vengeance, payback or anything. This is not meant to be cold or hurtful. This is just…leaving.
After you go, you set yourself up by yourself, and take it one day at a time.
Personally, I’d not expect to jump right into LO’s arms. I’d just focus on you, leaving, doing it as kindly and responsibly as you can.
It’s going to be very hard. But once it’s done, it’s done. Then you go one day at a time.
Thanks @ MJ and @CSC. I do truly need to end this nonsense. It has gone on far too long. I don’t want to waste the rest of my life. I’m not getting any younger, and I want to enjoy the few remaining years I have left as a relatively young man. I am never going to be happy in this marriage. A while back, I said to my friends I would make my wife another financial offer, and if she refused I would draft a separation agreement. If she tears that up or refuses to sign, I would start court action to force a sale of the house (and make it clear I’d be doing so). Our summer vacation is a little over two months away. I think that is a reasonable milestone to shoot for so that I really tighten the screws with her after that. This would give me enough time to get things in order and start the ball rolling on my new life. In the meantime, I won’t be discussing divorce outright unless she asks me directly, and in that case I would be totally transparent with her. I don’t want to give her false hope, but I don’t want to live in hell either until I am ready to go.
Unfortunately, I do not have the ability to just up and leave. I live near a large expensive city (think London, San Francisco or New York). House prices and rents are astronomical, even here in the suburbs. There is barely enough money for one household, never mind two, and we are quite deeply in debt. I simply do not have the money to even pay rent on a room while I pay the mortgage and property tax for this house, and there is nowhere else for me to go. I also have my daughter to think about (and the dog), and I couldn’t just leave my daughter with my wife (they would kill each other). I do think I can lessen the financial burden by starting one or two side hustles, which is something I have been considering for a while, but just announcing I’m leaving isn’t going to work.
I would LOVE to be with my LO, but she is giving me so many mixed signals. I don’t think I am going to be with her. Chances are that isn’t going to happen. I have to be reasonable and logical here. I also want my freedom more than anything right now, so jumping into a serious relationship with anyone right away would likely be a mistake. Still, there are several other women who have shown me signs of interest — and I’m not even currently the best version of myself that I can and will be. I think I’ve got to stop thinking so much about other women and constantly remind myself that I would have options when I’m single, and there will be women who are interested in me (I do need to lose weight, but I have been told by several women lately that I’m a good looking guy, and I do have quite a bit of muscle underneath; doing a cut while still working out at the gym will give me a much better physique and a thinner, more handsome face). I don’t have a lot of confidence with women, but I do have to be self-aware enough to know I could probably meet someone nice. There seem to be a lot of nice, age-appropriate single women around here.
@Vicarious Limerent
This sounds like a very confusing time for you.
I feel, from my own experience, it is best to take care of oneself first. There is no need to prove you are ok, by whether other women are checking you out. I felt like that, with men, for a while. But lately, since I’m NC and really taking time to think about WTF is actually going on with me, I am realizing it’s less that I need that reenforcement, and more that I need to be alone. I need to know who I am and what I need and want, exclusive of what someone else’s reaction (positive or negative!) tells me.
Between your current relationship, all these single women you’re seeing, and the other things that you might need to handle if you do in fact leave, it seems like a one thing at a time approach might serve you well.
There will be time to meet someone new, and of course you will. Wouldn’t it be great to meet them when you are totally ok with yourself, on steady footing, and know you have been through fire, become levelheaded about it all, and survived?
@CSC, self-care is super important. Just the last couple of days my frame of mind has changed a lot. I am feeling a lot happier and more positive, I am taking better care of my health and wellness, and I am getting caught up at work. I feel more optimistic than I have in a long time.
I know the last thing I should be thinking of is other women. I need to focus on fixing my life and getting out of my marriage first. But I have to say that thinking about other women and reminding myself that I would likely have other options if my wife and I went our separate ways is really helping me a lot. It is starting to pay off as a harm reduction strategy — not that I am actually going to have an affair or jump right into a relationship with someone else.
I am less focused on my LO, and she is kind of on the back burner right now. I’m not thinking of her as the be-all and end-all, and I see that as a good thing. I still REALLY like her and do see her as a good fit for a long-term relationship, but it is starting to sink in that I would likely only have a faint hope at best of that ever happening. My new “glimmery friend” (as opposed to the one from a few years ago who used to flirt shamelessly with me) is definitely becoming a lot friendlier. I am intrigued, but the thing is this lady gives off “bad girl” vibes, whereas my LO is very wholesome. Still, I’m told this new glimmery lady is very family-oriented and super nice, so perhaps it isn’t good to judge a book by its cover. I don’t know. I just like the attention for now, and I am attracted to her. I am not planning on pursuing anything (at least not until my marriage is over), but she has been just what the doctor ordered lately to take my mind off of LO #3. I won’t use or lead this woman on, but I don’t think she is LO material (although I could be wrong). On the other hand, who knows what the future might bring? I’m only looking for friendship for the time being anyway (just like with LO #3).
AI use has changed. Last year, the top search was for “generating ideas”. Today, “therapy/companionship” takes the top spot (to be fair, it was second spot in 2024). Second is “organizing my life” and third – Dr L will be interested in this – “finding my purpose”.
Source: Harvard Business Review, 9 April 2025
People are lonely, overwhelmed, and have no purpose (in that order, if this is to be believed). In desperation, we turn anywhere – and now, AI is so accessible. It is relatively cheap (free even), compare free or the $20 you pay a month for the pro version, to the $195 I pay per session for my therapist (that isn’t even the most expensive). Therapists are seeing their industry being disrupted. To be fair, I think their industry was disrupted by Covid too – in a good way for them – when people got used to the idea of doing therapy online – the therapists widened their pool. But – they also lament the rise of the Instagram therapist, and now, AI: a responsive, adaptive, on-call (no need to make an appointment), cheap alternative.
Limerence shows that we can fixate on OBJECTS; the idea of a person as opposed to a real person. Is it so hard to imagine that we easily accept an AI therapist? I did an experiment where I blended a philosophical question with a therapy ask, and because I know the content fairly well, I have to say, AI did a great job. It knew all the theories, models, etc. You could ask it to specifically hone in on the thoughts of particular (well-known) therapists, philosopher, and the like. You could ask it for suggestions for new things. The only thing I think it lags behind (and this will become fixable, and soon at the rate things are going) is that you currently have to know what to ask. It doesn’t … anticipate. My therapist is also better at picking nuance and making connections between random stories I share, but that is probably because I don’t really share stories with AI so much (too old school maybe) but it seems there are kids who tell AI problems with their parents and then the AI will say it understands why some children murder their parents. Or do dubious self-soothing methods, like self-harm. Knowledge yes, wisdom no. But again, these can be … fixed. To the point we might get a very satisfying AI with guardrails. (But who sets the morality bar, eh, you need to ask that!)
Hello all! New poster here. I’m middle aged and happily married but with a crush on someone else. I have found the crush incredibly confusing and distressing and felt so guilty about having these feelings I seem to have no control over.
I read the review of Smitten in the Observer last weekend and it was the breakthrough I had been seeking for four years. I had read a few other relationship self-help books and was familiar with the concept of limerence, but didn’t find anything that helped me. I also had counselling about it for a while, which provided a bit of relief in that I haven’t been able to confide in anyone else, and some useful advice that I put into action but no magic cure. I have been keeping an encrypted diary for most of this time but found I was just going round in circles and not getting anywhere.
I’ve just finished reading the book and am putting my recovery plan into action. It is SUCH a relief finally to understand what’s going on in my head, and to know that I’m not alone. So many observations throughout the book resonated with me. It turns out that human feelings and behaviour can get quite predictable! It’s so good to know that while it might be a hazardous road ahead, I *can* get rid of this crush and concentrate on my lovely husband. Early days yet and I’m sure I’ll be back here to discuss progress.
Thank you Dr L! Thank you for doing such interesting, important and helpful research and putting it into such a useful book and blog resource.
Just make sure they don’t stumble on your diary. That’s how my ex SO found out about an LO.
Oh no! I’m sorry to hear that. That must have been hard.
It’s encrypted and password protected, and in any case I trust my husband not to pry.
Limerent Nurse’s husband found her diary about her LE and he asked for a divorce. She is single now. Be careful with the diary.
@Coffeehouse.
Just in case anyone thought I was being rude the other day commenting on Dr. Ramani’s physical appearance, I would like to share something that she herself said in a video called “Signs you’re healing from narcissistic relationships”:
“Now I also eat normally. Maybe a little more than normally. I’ve obviously gained weight and no longer give a ****. Food’s too good and life’s too short.”
You can see why I love this woman! She’s so relatable! 😜
My younger sister was reading me her astrological charts today. Apparently, according to the charts, she’s “flirtatious”. Sister’s po-faced response: “Flirtatious? I don’t know about that…” (She isn’t flirtatious at all). 🤣🤣🤣
I also found out today, from my younger sister, that my father has terminal cancer. He only found out three or four days ago, but he didn’t tell me. All the men in my family are like this – absurdly stoical, ridiculously selfless, outrageously noble. My own father is dying and couldn’t tell me he’s dying. I’m not sure how I feel about either development. Apparently, my sister cried a lot when she found out…
Sending love to anyone who has lost a parent or who has a sick parent. 🙏
Hi Sammy,
I am sad to hear about your father’s cancer diagnosis. For what it’s worth, when I was in a similar boat (not with my dad, but with another family member), my reaction was similar to your sister’s. I cried a lot and basically did a lot of grieving while my loved one was still alive. Their death came as a relief, in the end, because they suffered quite badly and over a long time (which doesn’t happen to everyone). A lot can depend on the person’s cancer treatment and how well they respond to it. If they respond well, you may have time on your side to come to terms with things. If things move more rapidly, it could be as shocking as a sudden death with lots of grieving afterwards.
I hope I am not intruding.
I send my best wishes your way 🫶
🅱️ 🧙,
When I got the phone call from a cousin in the early dawn and saw a clip video of Dad lying in ICU, I instantly knew this time would be the last one, he survived many mini strokes over years and always revived within a minute or so.
I asked my boss for an emergency leave (it was two weeks before the final), dropped everything and reached to his bed within 48 hours on the other side of the world. By then, my thyroid already began to swell. During the last 9 days with him, my body could not stop shaking, my mind numb, and my therapist of the time was on the phone around the clock. Dad’s totally paralyzed condition, (except hearing, eye blinking, and front lope of the brain — he knew what was happening to him…no only loved life more than he), was so helpless that at one point I just wished he could be released faster, It was unbearable to watch.
The whole thing happened so fast that I could not truly comprehend what happened; I could not feel or think, I did not know what to think or feel (mother was even more numb), except obvious chills and shaking limbs. Within two weeks, my thyroid expanded and incurable Hashimoto thyroiditis set in. In the following two years, it was worsened and changed into lymphoma — the least harmful kind, luckily (all removed incidentally).
My nagging point, intense stress or traumatic event is Mother of all sorts of serious diseases. We all have to mentally prepare to encounter and term with unexpected or inevitable, which requires our own good health in body and mind….
Dear Snow,
I didn’t realise that your thyroid disease an lymphoma happened just after losing your Dad, and that these events were so linked for you – how awful! The shock of losing your beloved Dad must have been horrific. Being away from home and rushing to his side in such an emergency situation must have been so hard.
I agree that stress and life trauma certainly do affect long and short term health. We need to watch out for this as we get older and our bodies are not so robust (this is not such a problem for you yet, my dear).
While the situation I was in was terrible at the time, and certainly threw me into limerence (as I have described before), it also taught me to be more compassionate. The limerence and the lesson in compassion were separate and parallel lessons, I think.
I also learned to be less judgemental. As an aside, that last one is tough for me and I need to remind myself every day not to judge anyone. We never know what people are going through – even @sseholes (forgive my colourful language).
Take care of yourself, Snow. I hope you are getting some sleep now, and that you are done with jet lag.
Sammy
When I found out I had afib I begged my wife not to tell our boys. I hate my sons to think I am fragile or feeble. I kept it a secret from them for a very long time. I went to my ablation and cardioversion alone so they wouldn’t know what was going on. They know now.
I don’t know how old you are Sammy but if your father is my generation or older that is how, at least in the west, we were taught to be as boys. We had to strong and protect the people we loved. Your father may no doubt be embarrassed about his condition.
All that said you have my condolences. Cancer took three out of four of my grandparents. It’s a disease that kills indiscriminately. Your father and your family will be in my prayers Sunday.
@Bewitched.
I know you’re offering a serious response to a serious issue, and I appreciate you taking the time to say what you said. But permit me a light-hearted response to you anyway? Because I’m good at light-hearted responses? And as a mark of my profound affection for you? 🙂
Personally, for the record, I have never found you intrusive. During your time at LwL, you have always been the very soul of tact. Perhaps this is half your problem? Perhaps this is why you find yourself limerent at midlife? You are a dyed-in-the-wool people-pleaser and have thus never found your own true voice. Hence, no one is ever offended by anything you say. 😜
Now I’m not going to provide drive-by diagnoses of your real and/or alleged mental health issues, as entertaining as that might be for the both of us. I don’t believe drive-by diagnoses is the purpose of LwL. Don’t worry, though. If I was going to diagnose you, I’d probably come up with some really sweet-sounding diagnosis such as “Lovely Person Disorder”. 😉
Yes, I think you suffer from “Lovely Person Disorder”, or LPD for short. It’s a lifelong condition. It is a debilitating condition, or so I’m told. There is no known cure. People are doomed to become nicer and nicer by the year until they die. I actually think Jaideux has the same condition, poor thing, as you do. Maybe you two ladies could get together sometime and attend joint counselling sessions? Maybe you could ask around and snag a two-for-the-price-of-one therapy deal? 🤣
I would also like to say something a bit cheeky to you. I would like to give you some free advice, since giving advice is so frowned upon at LwL. In fact, I’d like to give you some 100% recycled free advice. Some charming wise old soul once gave me this advice. I’m sure you can’t imagine who…
Okay. Okay. Maybe I’m lying. Maybe this soul wasn’t so old. And maybe this soul wasn’t so wise. And possibly this soul wasn’t as charming as rumoured. Nonetheless, I’d like to leave you with one shining jewel of wisdom she gave me, adjusted for gender and poetic license of course. Please enjoy! No backsies!
Woman, know thyself. 😁🙏🙄😉
I hope that you don’t mind an interjection here. I would also like to say that Bewitched is a thoroughly decent human being as far as I can tell. Bewitched gave me some fantastic suggestions for dealing with my LO, and whilst I’m still going through the mill, I would better behind without the courage Bewitched inspired.
Bewitched: You are definitely in my close-network and I’m so grateful for having met you here.
Thank you Sammy. Hope you don’t mind the intrusion.
Justme
“I would better behind without the courage Bewitched inspired” should read “I would be further behind….”
@Justme.
No, I don’t mind the intrusion…
Bewitched and I have known each other (slightly) for a long time. At least a couple of years. Or, at the very least, we have known about each other, while keeping a respectful distance. We like each other I feel, and we trust each other. We haven’t really had any run-ins. We have some of the same LwL friends, and it is through those friends we remain in each other’s orbits. But we don’t really interact much.
I can’t remember the exact circumstances. I said something to Bewitched once. It was tongue-in-cheek, and I think she knew that. Her response to me was that I should “know myself”. (For the record, Dr. L has also touched on this idea as a principle of purposeful living. And I think Socrates came up with it first).
For some reason, my sometimes-childish mind finds it absolutely hilarious to give Bewitched back her own advice. I mean, if we’re passing around the hot potato of shame, I don’t want to be the last person left holding it! (Not that shaming was ever Bewitched’s intention. But LwL, like all places, has its fair share of fiery tempers and fragile egos, and misunderstandings occur from time to time).
Apart from that, Bewitched can hardly reject or take offence at my advice. She’s the one who said it first! It’s advice that’s been pre-approved by the person on the receiving end!
But, yes, speaking seriously, I agree with your assessment. Bewitched is a major sweetheart. 🙂
I quite like “lovely person disorder” Sammy! And B🧙♀️, please don’t change. To top up what JM said – you have helped me more than words can say at various key points in my LE and recovery attempt!
I think some people are just natural high empaths for whatever they see in front of them. Bewitched I believe you are one of those. And also, Bewitched, I believe from things you’ve said that you gain a lot from making connections with others, inside and outside LwL.
Keep being you! 💙😁
Dear all,
Shucks, you guys are killing me with the compliments, thank you. It means a lot [waves fan in front of menopausal face].
Me and Sammy do understand one another. He’s sometimes too intelligent for me, but I sure get a kick out of his monologues (in the best possible sense of the word).
“For the record, Dr. L has also touched on this idea as a principle of purposeful living. And I think Socrates came up with it first).”
You are killing me with this. Sammy, I had forgotten that I gave you that advice to know thyself. [Did I mention that I was menopausal?]. Socrates might have onto something 🤔
Sammy, you better watch out or I might stifle you to death with niceness (or bore you to death with blandness). Either way, you’re not going to get rid of me!
Glad to hear that you are dolling out hugs to your little sis.
@JMMO and @LaR, you can’t know how great it is to hear the message “don’t ever change / be yourself”. We all need to hear this more.
Bx
oops, typo, I meant ‘doling out hugs’
(for some reason the correct spelling looked funny the first time)
🥔,
So sorry to hear about your father’s diagnosis, it’s going to be hard and sad days ahead for him, you and your entire family.
Please be strong and more loving for him… (I don’t know how to console other people’s sorrows…)
@Sammy
I’m very sorry to hear about your father’s diagnosis, and I can only imagine how it must feel to absorb that news.
I lost my Dad last summer, and he seemed similar – would not allow anyone to really know what was going on with him until quite a late stage. It was disorienting and a difficult time.
My heart goes out to you, your Dad, and your family.
csc
And love to you and your dad.
I’m sorry. Stay strong.
Hi Sammy
I wanted to say how sorry I am to hear if your father. My thoughts and best wishes are with you.
Jmmo
Sammy, I’m so sorry to hear that. Sending you strength – and here’s to you and your loved ones chipping away at his cool exterior…
@Trifles.
Thank you for your kind words. 😉
I have always liked you. Your blend of humour and intellect is something quite appealing to someone with my own personality type.
I’m sorry I haven’t been able to indulge in playful conversations with you, replete with puns and such. The reason for my abstinence is not wanting other readers to spiral as a result of those playful conversations. I.e. what may be “safe behaviour” for you and “safe behaviour” for me isn’t necessarily “safe behaviour” for other people, who may find themselves in less stable and more suggestible mental states.
Sometimes the needs of the most vulnerable people in a group must take priority over all other concerns. The fact that I haven’t spoken to you very much isn’t a sign that I don’t like you. 😉
Send you my love Sammy! Very sorry to hear this. Many Dads are like that, I guess, they don’t want to burden other people or to be pitied. All my best thoughts and wishes for your family.
My condolences…So many people here are dealing with the loss of parents. I have, too; I just don’t talk about it here. So I know what it’s like.
@Sammy,
My thoughts are with you Sammy as I know you are probably trying to wrap your brain around this.
From one who knows this is going to be a long journey for you and currently in a similar place myself, please know I’m here for you and will keep you in prayer.. 🙏🏼
@MJ.
Thank you for your kind words.
Dad has been sick with other health problems for about twenty years. So him having yet another medical problem (a medical problem that is a culmination of other medical problems) doesn’t come as a surprise.
The strangest and funniest thing about my father is that in the last few years he’s been opening up to me like never before. And not all the things he says are politically correct. He has a shockingly “inappropriate” perspective at times. I think his ill health makes him even more unfiltered.
For example, the other day, he told me that when he was a boy at school, his classmates had a saying: “Parts down the middle, sits down to piddle.” (Basically, chaps who part their hair down the middle are so lacking in the Australian ideal of masculinity they should consider using a different lavatory). 😲😲🤣
My thoughts: “Oh my God! Why are you telling me this? And why did you wait until I was forty-two to tell me this? You should have told me this at 14. Then I could have wielded some serious power in the playground, and risen like cream to the top of the toxic-masculinity male hierarchy! Think of all the people I could have bullied!” 🤣🤣😁😜
My LO, when I first met him, parted his hair down the middle. Yeah, I get it now. He totally looked like a girl. According to my father’s worldview, LO’s hairstyle was a red flag, obviously. Just goes to show – sons should always listen to their fathers! 🤣🤣🙄
My mother was/is an extremely refined woman, and so growing up we all lived by her standards. My father never openly displayed the crass side to his personality, as my mother wouldn’t permit it. But he obviously did always possess a crass side to his nature. He was training to be in the army at one point. He believed he was going to die in Vietnam, but the war ended just before males in his age group were due to be sent over. (My father actually wanted to go and fight. He saw it as a big adventure). 🙄
Also, I have a strange memory of my father when I was about thirteen. We were in the supermarket, doing grocery shopping together. And I felt extremely irritated with my father, because he was holding my hand in public. Much worse than that, he was holding my hand WAAAY too tight. (His grip was uncomfortable). Some days later, a girl approached me at school: “Hey, I saw you and your dad at the shops on the weekend, and you were holding his hand.” (No, lovey. Get it right. It was the other way round. I wasn’t holding Dad’s hand – Dad was holding my hand! He’s the one who needs moral support to buy cookies. Not me). 🤣🤣😜
See what I mean about straight men being “sweet” but “tone-deaf” i.e. so loving and yet oddly insensitive to the feelings of their loved ones? (You’re crushing the bones in my hand, Dad. Could you, like, ease up a little?) 😁
But all humans can project their feelings onto others in weird ways. For example, when my sister told me about Dad’s diagnosis, she kept asking me: “Do you want a hug? Do you want a hug?” And I was just sitting there, thinking to myself. “Um, no. Why the **** would I want a hug, woman?” Then, I realised my sister was actually asking me to hug her. She was the one who felt in desperate need of a hug. She hugged me twice. 🙄🤣🙂
Sammy, thank you for this
“Sending love to anyone who has lost a parent or who has a sick parent.”
It’s a Yes from over here. Especially challenging when it all overlaps and with parents-in-law in the mix too.
Sending you and everyone else dealing with all this stuff my heartfelt wishes and much strength.
Hi Sammy,
So sorry to hear this news, and about the way you heard it. I echo others’ thoughts on men of a certain and their communication style. I hope you’ll have some time on your side and find a way to all enjoy that together. Sending 🫂 from my side of the world to yours.
*men of a certain age
Dear Sammy:
I have lost both my parents and the pain never goes away. I don’t know what kind of relationship you have with your father, but I would encourage you to spend some time with him if that’s possible.
I constantly kick myself for not saying or asking certain things before it was too latee.
@Coffeehouse.
Thank you to everyone who sent well-wishes regarding my father. I don’t want to hold up proceedings by individually thanking everyone who contributed. But I have replied to three readers – MJ, Bewitched, and Trifles – who comments inspired thoughts in me that either seemed most relevant or most irreverent. 🙂
I would also like to take a moment to remind everyone that participating in the LwL community isn’t just an immense privilege made possible by the kindness of Dr. L, it is also for a lot of people a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to learn some really cool info. I actually think the work that Dr. L is doing is game-changing stuff. I think scientists and laypersons developing an accurate understanding limerence has the potential to revolutionise the entire field of human psychology.
I would like to say I felt/feel both excited and humbled to be allowed to loiter at the coalface while some important ideas/insights were/are being discussed. It’s not often one gets to live through history-in-the-making or live through something that has the potential to alter the course of people’s individual histories.
I know everyone here has their own circumstances and their own views on limerence. I know, when people first come here, their agenda is often to keep hope alive at all costs or to find a way of feeding the delusion (in cases where the limerence is delusion). However, please don’t waste the chance also to learn.
Sammy,
Sorry to hear about your dad. How are you feeling about everything now?
@Marcia.
In a weird way, I don’t feel that concerned about my dad because he doesn’t act concerned about himself. He’s very “business as usual” at the moment. He went out to play poker last night. 😆
He doesn’t appear to experience physical pain in the way a normal person does/would. He’s always been a bit disconnected from his own body.
I think my sisters and even my mother will take his eventual passing a lot harder than I will. So I guess I will have to be strong for them.
It feels like serendipity that the tail-end of my limerence is coinciding with Dad’s waning because I’m lucid enough to focus somewhat on external reality at the moment. I’ve “wakened” enough from the powerful analgesic of limerence to care about what’s going on in other people’s lives. I feel horribly guilty. I’ve been so busy living in my head I’ve missed the last twenty-five years of everyone else’s life. But, on the other hand, no one seemed to notice my prolonged emotional absence. I got away with being distant and inscrutable! 🙄🙂
In the early part of my limerence, I was very angry at my father. I kind of blamed him for my limerence. I thought maybe if he loved me enough as a child, etc, then I wouldn’t have fallen under the spell of some beautiful male enchanter. But now I see my limerence wasn’t Dad’s fault. I see my limerence more as my brain’s ability to get high in response to a certain LO trigger archetype. And because my brain was able to get high, well, my brain was able to crash too. And crash my brain did. And crash and crash.
To Sammy:
I am finding that very few things that I THOUGHT were my parents’ fault, actually were.
Hi Sammy,
“In a weird way, I don’t feel that concerned about my dad because he doesn’t act concerned about himself. He’s very “business as usual” at the moment”
Is that because he hasn’t processed it yet?
“I think my sisters and even my mother will take his eventual passing a lot harder than I will. So I guess I will have to be strong for them.”
If possible, you should try to be what they need. Maybe they don’t need you to be strong. Different people need different kinds of support. You could ask them. People don’t usually do that. When they provide support for people who are going through a difficult time. They don’t ask. “Hey, what do you need?” I’d pay money to hear that question. 🙂
“I kind of blamed him for my limerence. I thought maybe if he loved me enough as a child, etc, then I wouldn’t have fallen under the spell of some beautiful male enchanter. ”
Well, often who we become romantically/sexually entranced by, particularly when we are young, is directly related to our parents. It’s all subconscious. Was your LO like you dad?
@Marcia.
“Was your LO like you dad?”
Honestly? Not at all. LO was the complete opposite of my dad. Now that I’m out of limerence, I can happily admit that LO was a complete jerk. Not a jerk to me personally. Just a jerk in general. And not only a jerk. He was a smug jerk. And I found his “unwarranted smugness about all things” absolutely irresistible and intoxicating… 🤣🤣🤣
Maybe we could say my dad embodied a certain kind of masculinity (nice but oh-so-boring). And we could say LO represented a different kind of masculinity. (Sexy, glamorous, cocky, obnoxious, with a generous side of jerk. And he knew he was a jerk. And he didn’t care).
I think it was a version of masculinity I hadn’t seen modelled so successfully before, or I hadn’t realised how sexy that version of masculinity sometimes can be to some primal part of the brain. Maybe all that despicable arrogance in LO’s personality balanced out the excessive niceness in the personalities of my father and myself?
I always vaguely felt that there was something “missing” in the masculinity my father displayed, although my father is undeniably a real man. I felt like my father lacked potency. (How is a woman supposed to be driven wild by someone so boring and honest and responsible and down-to-earth?) And there was something off about my own personality at the time (too timid compared to the other boys, and too timid compared even to most of the girls).
I suppose I felt like I found a “desirable real man” at last, energy-wise. But Mr Real Man was toxic and smug and a complete jerk. But on some level I absolutely loved how horrible he was. His horrible-ness is what made him so attractive. I didn’t want to save him, and I didn’t want to improve him. My limerence episode wasn’t some lame redemption narrative. I just got high off the version of manhood my LO already embodied. I wanted LO to be gung-ho.
Upon reflection, I think there was something deeply authentic about LO’s version of masculinity, even though he may have been a horrible person. “Authenticity” isn’t a word that only applies to positive traits. “Authenticity” can also apply to negative traits. I loved my LO’s authentically negative qualities. He was tough, uncompromising, intimidating, quite possibly in love with himself, didn’t hide the fact he was in love with himself, and openly mocked other males with the exact same weaknesses. I couldn’t get enough. 🙂
Sammy,
“My limerence episode wasn’t some lame redemption narrative. I just got high off the version of manhood my LO already embodied.”
You’re preaching to the choir! I had an LO in my 20s who was extremely confident with a high degree of a**holism. He was also very talented and driven and adept with the opposite sex. I didn’t want to save him; I think I wanted to be him.
In retrospect, I think he was a selfish ass with little concern for how he affected other people, just blundering through the world, like a bull in a China shop. There has to be a happy medium between spineless and bully. 🙂
I don’t get this idea of saving someone. I didn’t want someone weaker than me; I wanted someone stronger.
@Marcia.
“…with a high degree of a**holism.”
Yes, that was the term I was reaching for. But I censored myself at the last minute, and changed it to the milder alternative “jerk”. 🙂
Our minds work in disturbingly similar ways. 🤣
When gay men congregate in large numbers, we often do our own version of “unwarranted smugness about all things”. But the difference between gay men and (narcissistic) straight men is that gay men are feigning it in a very conspicuous manner for entertainment value. It’s basically a fun form of male bonding among ourselves, or it’s high camp for straight audiences. (The genuine jerks get kicked out of our community pretty quickly. The gay community even in most big cities is small and tight-knit).
With straight men, however, sometimes the arrogance and the smugness and the toxicity are the real deal and not feigned. But these traits survive in the gene pool, because some heterosexual women find them sexy. Or some heterosexual women think “the toxic man” has other traits that compensate for his toxicity. 🤔
Some recent fun conversations with my platonic gay male friends:
Platonic gay male friend number one: “Sammy, I haven’t seen you in a while. Where have you been? Do you have a boyfriend yet?”
Sammy: **poker-faced** “No. I have a cat.”
Platonic gay male friend number one: **raises eyebrows** “A cat?”
Sammy: “That’s what I said. A cat.”
Platonic gay male friend number one: “A cat?”
Sammy: “Stop saying the word ‘cat’. I’m starting to feel super-judged.” 🤣🤣🤣
Sammy: **addressing platonic gay male friend number two in full hearing of the whole room** “And here’s another man who doesn’t age!”
Platonic gay male friend number two: **laughing softly** “No, Sammy. You are a liar. I am an old man now.”
Sammy: “It’s called ‘distinguished’, darling. You look distinguished!”
Platonic gay male friend number two: **still shaking with laughter** “Ah, thank you. You are too kind.” 😜
Sammy,
“But the difference between gay men and (narcissistic) straight men is that gay men are feigning it in a very conspicuous manner for entertainment value.”
But what about someone like Gore Vidal? Was he being an a**hole for entertainment value? I’ve seen interviews with him. He was smug and witty and deliciously bitchy. He was the smartest guy in the room, and he knew it.
I guess I’ll put up with a certain degree of narcissism/smugness if the person is brilliant. Camille Paglia. We’ve talked about her. Or a Gore Vidal. Or a Christopher Hitchens. Brilliant people. My LO wasn’t that special. 🙂
@Marcia.
“But what about someone like Gore Vidal? Was he being an a**hole for entertainment value? I’ve seen interviews with him. He was smug and witty and deliciously bitchy. He was the smartest guy in the room, and he knew it.”
I don’t know about someone like Vidal. He was a public figure a little before my time, so swagger and showmanship may have been natural parts of his personality, or by-products of a very gifted mind, but they might also have been savvy business moves on his part.
Very likely, he wanted to be on TV to promote his books and such. Who wants to interview someone who isn’t “deliciously witchy”? (Witchy spelled with a “b”)? Bette Davis booked a lot of TV appearances in her old age, not only because she was a living legend, but because she was willing to be unkind on the record. Whitney Houston, thanks to her breathtaking charm and sass, became the second-most interviewed person in America after Monica Lewinsky. And that’s when Whitney’s singing career was in serious decline.
Truman Capote would have cultivated a similar persona to Vidal.
These two men were literary rivals. Truman Capote, bless him, knew that saying outrageous things would get him press coverage. He learned that lesson a little too well in fact – he let success and notoriety go to his head, and ended up losing most of his friends. He was a victim of his own cleverness. He mistook glitter for gold.
Camille Paglia, as you’d already know, thinks gay men are amazing conversationalists. Maybe she’s right. Maybe she isn’t. Paglia often has her own highly narcissistic agenda to push. I think there can be a sad undercurrent to a lot of gay men’s verbal pyrotechnics – a kind of desperate pleading for attention one might see in a young child.
I think some of the competitive aspect in gay men’s conversation is pure masculinity (all men tend to get a bit competitive in conversation whereas straight women try to support the other person even when they don’t agree with what is being said). The competitiveness of gay men’s conversation might sound unusual to bystanders because gay men have more diverse interests than most straight men, so are able to make more rapid mental connections.
I think some of the competitive aspect in gay men’s conversation is deep-rooted insecurity i.e. overcompensation for either real and/or perceived deficiencies in the self. I don’t think straight men on the whole ever experience the same insecurity that gay men experience while being competitive. Straight men are always a little more comfortable in their own skins. Straight men are born to compete with men. Gay men learn to compete as a matter of survival.
Highly gifted heterosexual women are often insecure about their talents and accomplishments in the way gay men are. Brilliant heterosexual women display a certain brittleness (think Germaine Greer) that brilliant heterosexual men do not. (I love Greer’s brittleness, by the way. I think it actually adds enormously to her sex appeal. She has something almost magical in her voice). 🙂
I’ll speak for myself. There are days I believe I’m brilliant. But it’s a pretty short-lived feeling. Give me twenty minutes and I’m completely deflated, crippled with insecurity, back to doubting myself. I seem to have “flashes of brilliance” that I feel deeply insecure about. But I also muck about and talk a lot of nonsense too. Silliness, to me, is a welcome respite from the demand that others place on me to be brilliant. I don’t want to be brilliant full-time.
Actually, this is one of the things I love about gay men when gay men are alone with other gay men. Yes, sometimes the conversation sparkles. Yes, sometimes smugness puts in an appearance and jaws drop to the floor. But sometimes the conversation is so breathtakingly banal that it’s hard not to laugh. 😉
For example, I was in a gay venue and an old gay man approached the counter and started talking to the clerk (also gay) about whether the clerk intended to grow his hair long. This wasn’t a flirtatious interaction. This was a normal, run-of-the-mill, let’s-pass-the-time-of-day conversation. This was/is apparently gay men’s interpretation of “small talk”. The clerk said no.
Old gay man: “That’s good. You won’t have to use shampoo. These girls with long hair – they use a lot of shampoo. Very expensive.”
Sammy: **eavesdropping on entire conversation** “Why on earth are we talking about shampoo? Is it a slow news day? Has our supply of inspirational conversational matter run so low that we’re now reduced to talking about the price of shampoo?” 🙄😊
Maybe that’s the thing I like about gay men – gay men talk about trivial topics as if they are earth-shattering and earth-shattering topics as if they are trivial. This is the essence of camp to me. This is also why heterosexual men and religious people don’t like gay men very much. Members of the uninitiated find it very hard to follow/understand the inverted nature of gay men’s conversation. Basically, in style of speech and selection of subject matter, gay men turn the entire world upside down. Gay men live in a reverse reality to straight people. Gay men don’t put the same weight on things.
Gore Vidal was unbeatable in debates, in my opinion, very likely because he always held one trump card in his hand his opponents didn’t – the ability to surprise. And surprise and surprise and surprise. If I recall, one interviewer accused him of being “meretricious” i.e. dishonest. Gore Vidal’s response supposedly went something like this: “Meretricious to you, and a Happy New Year!” 🤣🤣🤣
Vidal was said to be bisexual and not gay. So he might have been comfortable, or learned in time to be comfortable, with the smug side of his nature. It might have been a manifestation of true masculinity in him and for him. However, what I see in Vidal is something both undeniably brilliant and also childlike at the same time. You see the sophisticated man, and I see the precocious boy.
As for hanging out with gay men personally and eavesdropping on their general conversation – that, to me, is like being trapped involuntarily in a never-ending episode of “The Muppets”. That is why straight men such as MJ probably enjoy reading my posts so much. He’s not hearing the “gayness of it all”. He’s hearing the “Muppet-ness of it all”. And the “Muppet-ness of it all” is kind of fun. 🙄🤣
During my time at LwL, out of deep respect for our gracious hosts, the Bellamys, I have down my best to balance any “witchiness” with kindness. I have tried to let kindness always be my guide. To me, brilliance without kindness is something akin to barbarity. 🙂
@Sammy and @Marcia
Please excuse my intrusion It’s very interesting to read both of your thoughts about your respective LO’s and their traits…I’m just lurking in it. 🙂
I have nothing to add – I am just coming to terms with my most recent LE, and in kind, a very powerful LE from 20 years ago…in the family tree of my LE’s, these two are like the mother and father of all the other, minor gods…bookends on a very hard span of my life, it seems (hopefully, bookends, I really can’t take another LE and will work to prevent one…if that’s even possible.)
It’s interesting to hear both of your thoughts around gender (is that the right word? Sexuality?), wanting to “be” LO (I think this is why my latest LE was so powerful)…wanting to “save” someone else…wanting to save oneself…
It’s interesting to read about the type of confidence, smugness, etc. that some people have — an unapologetic quality… Whether LO’s qualities have, eventually have a half-life…
All of these things have been swimming around in my mind, as I’m recovering, slowly, these days. I’m not there yet. I still see my LO as a special, gifted, detached and free God, rather than an irresponsible and clueless young man. I really appreciate your conversation, the questions and observations —- reading along has been helpful, illuminating and interesting.
🙂
Warmly, csc
@csc.
Thank you for your lovely words…
I’m not sure if I ever wanted to be my LO, but he certainly possessed a truly enviable level of self-confidence. This is despite the fact I was more intelligent than him (a fact he never acknowledged) and a better writer than him (a fact he did once most touchingly acknowledge. He said he wished he could write as well as me).
I think Marcia and I are discussing sex differences. Unlike most modern theorists, I believe sex differences are intrinsic, and powerful drivers of subconscious attraction between the sexes. I.e. I think many males have an innate masculinity that is apparent by the time they’re teenagers, an innate masculinity that attracts the attention of the opposite sex. I believe many females have an innate femininity that is apparent from adolescence onwards, an innate femininity that also attracts the attention of the opposite sex.
I don’t think heterosexuals are attracted to “person of the opposite sex”. I think heterosexuals are actually attracted to “evidence of masculinity” or “evidence of femininity” in a given desired mate.
Some people – i.e. the alphabet soup crowd (I’m sure you know who I mean) – never quite develop either innate masculinity or innate femininity. We’re the stragglers. We’re the late-bloomers or the never-bloomers. We are doomed to go through life neither quite fully male nor quite fully female, but a disquieting mixture of both.
In other words, to paraphrase Camille Paglia, some people are androgynes. Some people are hermaphrodites in terms of their psychological makeup. I am one such person. This gives me a rather interesting vantage point from which to observe the human race.
The most fascinating thing about gay men to me is not that gay men are more feminine than straight men. (A fact easily confirmed by a few minutes of direct observation). The most fascinating thing to me about gay men is that gay men can also exhibit extremely stereotypical male behaviours without even realising it. Gay men can sometimes be the biggest male chauvinist pigs of them all.
Basically, by studying gay men, not only can one learn about effeminacy, or non-masculinity in males to be precise, one can also learn about maleness, or masculinity in males to be precise, and learn about how groups of adult men sometimes behave when women aren’t around to “supervise”. 😆
Sometimes, men behave hilariously when women aren’t watching, or when men think women aren’t watching. Sometimes, we discuss deep philosophical matters, for example. Sometimes, we show off our brilliance. Sometimes, perhaps a great deal of the time, we nonchalantly discuss the price of shampoo. (No. Actually, this is a lie. I have NEVER heard a group of straight guys willingly discuss the price of shampoo. Hell would have to freeze over before most straight men would be willing to discuss the price of shampoo). 😁
Women, of course, have their own fair share of endearing and humorous “candid camera” moments. The other day, for instance, I was eating a toasted sandwich outside my favourite Swiss delicatessen. Two elderly women came over and plonked themselves down at the table immediately next to mine. One of two women merrily turned around and addressed me. She was perhaps apologising for invading my personal space without permission:
“We’re moving to get out of the rain. Not that we’re fussy or anything…” 🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, Sammy,
I don’t know that two straight men would be discussing shampoo but two straight men can have their moments.
I have a membership to Costco and my straight buddy has a membership to Sam’s Club. Their both “big box stores” in the US. They carry slightly different items so we sometimes go to one or the other as a favor for each other.
One time we went to Sam’s Club and I bought something Costco didn’t have. It needed to be returned. But, since I’m not a member of Sam’s Club, my buddy needed to go with me. We were both at the exchange counter. He’s using his membership card and I’m explaining why it needs to be returned. The whole exchange came out sounding like something Will and Jack from “Will and Grace” would say.
Since you can’t let someone else use your card, the conclusion was we were a couple and the clerk treated us like one.
Sammy Sams,
“I don’t know about someone like Vidal. He was a public figure a little before my time,”
Now, slow down, Meanie! 🙂 He was before my time, too. I’ve just read up on him.
“Bette Davis booked a lot of TV appearances in her old age, not only because she was a living legend, but because she was willing to be unkind on the record. ”
I’ve seen some of those interviews. She was brave. She’d had a stroke by then. She was bitchy and funny and everything you’d expect based on her film performances.
“Whitney Houston, thanks to her breathtaking charm and sass, ”
I have to disagree with you here. Houston was a great singer but a product creation of Clive Davis. You can’t put her in the charm-personality-brilliance league of a Gore Vidal or a Truman Capote.
” ended up losing most of his friends. He was a victim of his own cleverness. He mistook glitter for gold.”
He lost most of his friends — high society women in NYC– because he wrote a thinly veiled short story about them and revealed all their very graphic secrets. They shunned him afterward.
“Camille Paglia, as you’d already know, thinks gay men are amazing conversationalists. Maybe she’s right. Maybe she isn’t. ”
They are. And they’re great friends. Better emotionally with women than straight men. Truman Capote’s best friend among the society women was Babe Paley. He apparently was the person she went to when she needed someone. Not her husband.
“(all men tend to get a bit competitive in conversation whereas straight women try to support the other person even when they don’t agree with what is being said)”
Straight women are competitive with each other. I don’t think it’s so much in conversation but women can be very bitchy with one another. Very cruel. Women compete for male attention, for example. Even sometimes for men they don’t want! (New male co-worker, for example.) It’s odd.
“Straight men are always a little more comfortable in their own skins.”
Do you think so? I’d say there are a good number of straight men who are insecure.
“Brilliant heterosexual women display a certain brittleness (think Germaine Greer) that brilliant heterosexual men do not.”
Idk. I just watched an old interview with Christopher Hitchens. He was the definition of brittle.
“Sammy: **eavesdropping on entire conversation** “Why on earth are we talking about shampoo? Is it a slow news day? Has our supply of inspirational conversational matter run so low that we’re now reduced to talking about the price of shampoo?” 🙄😊”
Ha! I feel the same when I hear a group of straight women talk about gardening or home renovations! 🙂
“Gore Vidal was unbeatable in debates, in my opinion,”
Yes. Brilliant.
“Vidal was said to be bisexual and not gay.”
Yeah, I don’t know. He didn’t actually identify as anything. He didn’t believe in the concept of straight and gay people. Only straight and gay sex acts. Supposedly, he’d had some affairs with women when he was young but I think he was basically into men.
Interesting fact: He had a 50+ year, platonic relationship with his life partner. They had sex with other people. He said relationships were impossible to maintain if you got sex involved. I think that’s interesting.
“You see the sophisticated man, and I see the precocious boy.”
Do you? I define “masculinity” as being strong, being comfortable in who you are. So Vidal had a large amount of masculinity. He wrote one of the first novels about gay love (“The City and the Pillar”). He knew he’d be blacklisted. (NYT wouldn’t review anything of his after that for years.) That takes balls for a young writer to do.
@Limerent Emeritus.
I think, through women’s eyes, men are always “muppets”. Even extremely moral men or intellectually gifted men are “muppets”. 🙂
Man’s belief: “I’m so smart. I’m so competent. I know everything about everything. Everyone takes me as seriously as I take myself.”
Man’s wife: “Don’t pay too much attention to Captain Obvious. He thinks he’s a budding genius, but some days he couldn’t tie his own shoelaces if I wasn’t on hand to help. Don’t be fooled by the fact he can perform amazing engineering feat #327. I’ve even seen him get lost on his way to the grocery store. Never fear – I drew him a little map.”
Of course, a truly mature wife knows to give her husband the impression that she believes he is smarter than her and that she takes him very, very seriously. All good wives are great actresses. 🙂
“Will and Grace” was an amazing show in its heyday, and the comedy has also aged well in my opinion. Sam Hayes in particular is an extraordinarily gifted actor, even though his character Jack could be described as “plain annoying”.
Since it’s a ‘gay” show, people might be tempted to gush over the male characters – Will and Jack. But the female characters in the cast are amazing, too, and routinely steal the show from the boys. Debra Messing as Grace is outstanding. Megan Mullally as Karen is a laugh-a-minute, and almost disturbingly alluring despite her mean streak. And the “friendship chemistry” between Grace and Karen often eclipses the “friendship chemistry” between Will and Jack.
This is what I hate about women in general – they take so-called “men’s stuff” and somehow make it better. I don’t think “Will and Grace” would have been the hit show it was without Debra and Megan at the helm. The girls were basically carrying the show a lot of the time, and the boys were just foils for the women’s talent.
Another example of women outshining men artistically is the duet remix (starring Adam Lambert and Pink) of “Whaddaya Want From Me?” There’s this really gorgeous lyric that always makes me melt:
Yeah (yeah)
It’s plain to see (it’s plain to see)
That, baby, you’re beautiful
And there’s nothin’ wrong with you (nothin’ wrong with you)
It’s me, I’m a freak (yeah)
But thanks for lovin’ me
‘Cause you’re doing it perfectly (perfectly)
Adam does an amazing interpretation of the lyric in his solo version of the song. (Obviously, one can read into the lyrics that he’s singing about his pain about being different in terms of his sexuality, yet he’s grateful that mainstream audiences still love him and accept him). Then, in the duet remix, Pink sings the same lines. And her interpretation, in my opinion, is even more moving than Adam’s…
Pink infuses her vocals with so much raw pain and longing, mixed with rock’n’roll vibes, that it’s hard not to get chills. Now I don’t know in what sense of the word Pink may consider herself to be a “freak”, but let’s just say this – that girl can really sell a song. 🙂
The word “jerk” on the screen must have provoked something inside my subconscious, but I did not give it any attention this morning until I had this dream from a nap less than two hours ago —
I lived in a small, neighbor town from “the Mars” [in reality it’s 104 miles away]. the flamboyant 👽 announced that during his spring break he was going to visit some old colleagues in my town. I felt dreadful, worrying that I’d run into him [unrealistic even if he comes back to 🍎, which he does regularly in reality…]
I knew I had to walk in certain, quiet paths in the small town in order to avoid any possible encounters. But in those paths, there were snakes moving around [my worst fear in waking hour or in dreams]. I saw [or envisioned] a big boa curled up in circles in a small square of my small town…
I sweated and woke up, and felt heaviness on my chest…
****
Soon, a memory came back: it’s must be after I sent him the nasty letter accusing him a narcissist (not took it back yet then), we had meeting for tea in the park nearby. Can’t remember well under what context (we were not arguing), he calmly said, “I don’t care if you think I’m a jerk…”, the word I did not quite understand well (culturally) at the time, but looked it up afterward. At the time, I did not think he was a “jerk” (I didn’t know how or when to use such a word back then).
But I clearly thought: of course, you care; otherwise, you would not have said it, inadvertently informing me such a concept that you might be thought as a jerk, due to your conducts, due to my anger, or due to the common understanding of the word…”
So he knew what he was doing could be considered as “jerky”. A year later, he repeated the sentence to me again in another public meeting, which surprised me again — the word “jerk” must carry a much heavier weight in his world than what I could comprehend.
Never expected or imagined an image of boa could be related to 👽 in my infinitely vivid dreams… 😨
****
🅱️🧙,
I should have learned more how to judge others — because I so often “judged” people much better than they actually were (LO#2, 3, 4.5, 6, 7), and never learned the lesson one after another…. so stupidly hopeful and delusional…
That’s why I said a while ago I always felt like a little girl while speaking to you…. why could not I “grow up” in some ways while feeling 286 years old in other ways? Maybe it’s due to my Granny’s genes — she was a cherry-blossom “girl” every morning until the day she left at age of 104.
Mom hated or was always jealous of Granny, perhaps because she did not know how to be grateful or joyful in any given days until last year, when I began treating her like she were my “daughter”?
Learn Your Song
Gabriel Ramirez
I survived. That’s all there is to say
about the trampling. A forest or
some grand ecosystem of
machetes hidden in cheeks.
What a mouth. The beast of the beast.
Everything I am can kill me
or give another reason to operate
from uneducated fear. I’m from
where love is. Bones don’t weigh a death.
I need to have a word with all the gods
that failed me. They wear masks and
vernacular like those whose caskets I’ve prayed next to.
They feed me pitted pomegranates full of smoke. There are
no angels. Just good people and the memories they become.
Press your wrists to your ears. Slow the world down.
Leave hope and learn your song. All I have are
my lungs to breathe, my mouth to speak, my legs to
proceed and my arms to make my enemies fall.
All enemies I’ve been, fall, now. I will not hurt myself but
I will save myself even if it hurts. My body is learning
to heal and runs on tactical forgiveness. The ones who
lied to me, about me, on me have been forgiven
how the wind forgives the large blade swung through it.
How the blade forgives itself for being mishandled and
chooses only to understand those who need weapons
to feel bigger than their own body. An overwhelming
space. I burn and there is no smoke. I excavate,
I’m wrestling skeletons out of my mouth.
I’m catching up with who I want to be.
I’m saying day after day, I live
the harder it will be to kill me.
****
about this poem
“How could text from three thousand and five hundred years ago reinvigorate my will to live and heal? The ninth couplet borrows ‘my mouth to speak, my legs to proceed, my arms to make my enemies fall,’ from a translation of the Book of the Dead of the Goldworker of Amun, Sobekmose at the Brooklyn Museum. Poems, language, and prayer have a magical way of finding us when we need them most. James Baldwin wrote, ‘[P]eople [italics mine] who cannot suffer can never grow up, can never discover who they are.’Of my suffering I choose learning, healing, and growth every time.”
—Gabriel Ramirez
Suzanne Percheron’s interview with Jung —
“No, I almost don’t dream anymore. (!!!)
I used to dream when I began to discover my unconscious.
One dreams when the unconscious has something to say, but my consciousness is always so receptive now that the door is open. I am ready to accept.”
“With me the unconscious can flow into consciousness.
I no longer have prejudice, or fear, or resistance.
The dream is a way in which the unconscious makes itself known to consciousness.”
“Many people have no memory of their dreams
because the unconscious knows that it will not be heard, so what’s the use; then they don’t remember.”
“One must not avoid unhappiness. One must accept suffering; it is a great teacher.”
“There, that’s an error, one must not seek happiness.
The happiness that one seeks is a usurped one.
Organic happiness, the bliss that comes from the center of the earth, that alone is fruitful and that simply comes.
Sometimes it surges from the deepest suffering.”
“One must not seek happiness, one must not avoid suffering.
When one distances oneself too much from suffering one loses depth, and happiness comes from depth.”
“Intuitives don’t have substance; they have inventiveness, imagination.
They don’t complete anything.
It is necessary for them to acquire this faculty.”
“Wisdom, that’s a gift of nature.
It’s joyous – laughter.
Chinese bellies – it’s the art of living.
Wisdom comes from folly.
When one is wise one loves everything, but in moderation.”
@Marcia.
I’m not going to debate anything with you. But I am charmed by the fact you took the time to read my exceptionally long-winded response to you and also took the time to provide so many thoughtful line-by-line responses of your own. 🙂
No, I’m not a “meanie”. (Where did you pick that one up? Kindergarten? Did you and Lovisa go to the same kindergarten or something? You appear to be using the same vocabulary). 🤣
I speak in jest, of course. We are old friends. Nothing I ever write to you is intended to make you feel bad. Or old. Or both bad and old at the same time. I apologise for calling you an “ageless beauty” the other day. “Timeless beauty” was the phrase I was actually thinking of. You’re a “timeless beauty” as in “a beauty for all time.” (How’s that for a good save?) 😁
In talking to me in this particular coffeehouse, I sensed you wanted my honest thoughts on some things. I’ve given you my honest thoughts. You are free to do with my honest thoughts whatever you like. You can accept them. You can reject them. You can put them in your pipe and smoke them. (No, actually, you can’t do the last option. Last time I checked, LwL Coffeehouse is a designated no-smoking area. You might set off the fire alarms). 😜
I’m not interested in debating in general. However, if I did participate in debate, because there was no way to avoid said debate, my approach wouldn’t be to defeat my opponent at all costs. That is a masculine response, and I’m not strictly masculine.
Nor would my approach be to burst into hysterical tears when a male opponent disproves some key point I made, preying on the chivalrous instincts of the male sex. That is a feminine response, and I am not strictly feminine. That is a feminine response, and a pretty darn shabby (intellectually dishonest) feminine response at that.
Some friendly advice which I’m sure you are the last woman on earth to need, since you don’t strike me in the least as a manipulative person. As a woman, you should never resort to emotional blackmail to get your own way. It will work. However, your male partner will stop trusting you in the long run and your female friends – if you’re lucky enough to have any female friends – will despise you because they can see through your tiresome machinations. 😉
No, my approach in debates as a gay male (i.e. someone who is neither strictly masculine nor strictly feminine, but a glorious mental fusion of the two) is simply to shovel in as many jokes as humanly possible before someone grabs the microphone out of my hand. 🤣
You heard it first here, dear. People don’t remember astonishing facts. People don’t remember winning arguments. People don’t remember champion debaters. But people do remember engaging personalities and lovely stories and delectable punchlines. My approach in a debate would be to connect with the audience, even if I end up losing the debate, or going wildly overtime. 🙂
I’m sure, at the end of any debate I participated in, the teacher (or whoever is overseeing the debate) would walk up to the front of the room and say something like this: “Thank you for that, Sammy. That was the most extraordinary talk I’ve ever heard in my life. That was the most extraordinary talk anyone here has ever heard. Unfortunately, after listening to you speak, no one can remember the actual debate topic. Now, young man, I think you should toddle off to bed. You’ve entertained us mightily, but it’s well past your bedtime. What are you doing up so late anyway?” 😆
It is the prerogative of heterosexual women to fight for what they believe in – heterosexual women usually have something worth fighting for. It is the prerogative of heterosexual men to fight for what they believe in – heterosexual men also have something worth fighting for. It is not the prerogative of non-heterosexual men to fight for anything, since we basically exist outside of the arena of men and women’s sex wars. We have all quietly left the battlefield.
If you are able to remember only one thing out of all the things I say to you, remember this: “All that glisters is not gold.” I obviously didn’t come up with the saying. It’s the title of a “Lost in Space” episode I watched as a child. (Limerent Emeritus would thoroughly approve). It also probably has its origins in ancient Greek philosophy, like most sayings that have stood the test of time. However, it seems especially pertinent to the subject of limerence.
Men often thrive more than women do in the public sphere, because men don’t take offence at constructive criticism. Women, as a sex, need to work on their willingness to hear constructive criticism. 😉
I extend to you my warmest wishes. Like Limerent Emeritus, you are held in very deep regard/affection by everyone at LwL. 🙂
Sammy Sams,
“I’m not going to debate anything with you.”
You’re not? Poopy pants! 🙂
” But I am charmed by the fact you took the time to read my exceptionally long-winded response to you and also took the time to provide so many thoughtful line-by-line responses of your own. 🙂”
You should be so charmed that your respond!
” Did you and Lovisa go to the same kindergarten or something?”
I can assure you that we didn’t. 🙂
“I speak in jest, of course. We are old friends. Nothing I ever write to you is intended to make you feel bad. ”
Same. 🙂
“You’re a “timeless beauty” as in “a beauty for all time.” (How’s that for a good save?) 😁”
Large amounts of cash would work better. I detest cheap sentiment. 🙂
“That is a feminine response, and a pretty darn shabby (intellectually dishonest) feminine response at that.”
It would probably work on LwL! So many of the men want to save someone. 🙂
“No, my approach in debates as a gay male (i.e. someone who is neither strictly masculine nor strictly feminine, but a glorious mental fusion of the two)”
Well, I feel I’m the same way. I’m both masculine and feminine. More masculine than some men! 🙂
“I obviously didn’t come up with the saying. It’s the title of a “Lost in Space” episode I watched as a child. (Limerent Emeritus would thoroughly approve).”
I’m sure he would. Everything he references is from the ’60s. 🙂 Ah, but it’s happening to me! I’m older than all of the people at work. I make references to things no one understands. It is … demoralizing. I’ve become “that guy in the club.” The one too old to be there, hitting on much younger women who don’t want to talk to him. 🙂
” Women, as a sex, need to work on their willingness to hear constructive criticism. 😉”
That’s probably true. 🙂
“Like Limerent Emeritus, you are held in very deep regard/affection by everyone at LwL. 🙂”
Speaking only about myself (and not LE), I may be held in affection by you. 🙂
Sammy,
Thank you! I’ve been racking my brain trying to figure out who Marcia reminds me of. Why it’s Karen – not the generic Karen, but Will & Grace’s Karen! 😉🍸
And as for the Lambert&Pink collaboration, I thought you started talking about ‘our’ Adam there, doing a rendition of the self-flagellating antihero 🙈
My 3 posts seemed to have been posted in a wrong place, and possibly caused some misunderstanding and even offense. Now I feel compelled to explain, not for my conscience, but for possible, unnecessary “pains” some misunderstand might have caused.
The reason I posted my dream, poem, quote… in the midst of others’ highly cultured dialogues is the random word “jerk”. I wanted to credit it to Sammy who evidently had/has no idea what effect it had caused in my reality, in my continuous removing the last bit of splinter of my LE.
I meant to say (evidently did a poor job this time) that sometimes, words, phrases, and sentences from “oblivious”LwLers could sideline shred light on sideline listeners’ own LE experiences, or indirectly enlighten cause of their own LE suffering. I have said many times that I sideline acquired a lot knowledge and insights from numrous “unsolicited advice”.
For for today’s situation, my nap dream, probably provoked by the word, continued revealing to me, at a subconscious level, that ET or ET’s behavior was like a scary boa, which I could not see and was much unwilling to link the two previously until this afternoon. Moreover, it made me to remember that ET even used the word “jerk” to “describe” himself at the time when I had little idea what it exactly meant and how to use it, cultural-wise. Deep in LE back then, I could not see him as a jerk even if he “informed” me he was one.
Then I sighed (to Bewitched) how I never learned in each LE relationship from the prior ones, due to my girlish hopes and easiness to forget/forgive the past — a trait of my Granny, whose longevity, I believe, could be contributed to her childlike nature and true ability to let go all the past sufferings (she had numerous concrete losses) and stayed mostly joyful “here and now”.
Then, these sentiments evidently led me to my personal loss in the past (that none of you even knows about) and how I had survived all of them. Whenever I posted quotes, it’s primarily remind myself what I should focus in my life, which could bring lasting, substantial happiness, based on what I have been through.
I don’t have advice for any of you, since everyone is so different and I do not know full stories of any LwLers and I’m in your shoes. You deal with your LE in your preferred ways, I my preferred manner (e.g. monologues)
The last thing I want to say, please do not assume anything fast at any given time, when we only know limited stories about others. Aside from few completely out of the woods, the majority of us is still working with our LE, in throe or with leftover splinters. Whatever we say or work on are mostly related to our personal experiences, that really have little to do with other LwLers or their life.
High sensitivity is an invaluable asset, but it could cloud one’s sensibility, judgment, or bring oneself unfounded, subjective hurt, or wave a verbal sword at the DQ’s “wind mill”, for the 👻 stage “glisters”?
Typo: I’m NOT in your shoes.
Dear Snow,
“I should have learned more how to judge others — because I so often “judged” people much better than they actually were (LO#2, 3, 4.5, 6, 7), and never learned the lesson one after another…. so stupidly hopeful and delusional… ”
I think I am correct in saying that, in the west, to ‘judge’ someone else normally has negative connotations. It basically means making your mind up that someone falls short in some way. So it is basically a criticism of someone else.
This negative spin probably comes from the bible saying “Judge Not, Lest You Be Judged”, in other words, if you criticise others, you can expect to be criticised yourself (or something like that).
In a comment to you above, I mentioned how I am personally trying to be less judgemental. I don’t really mind about the bible part, I just think judgement is sort of arrogant. Like, your making a snap decision about someone without knowing all the facts.
In your comment, you put a more positive spin on the word, as-in, seeing the good in people to your own detriment when they let you down somehow? I think that’s maybe an example of a very slight difference in language between our cultures, perhaps.
The other point I wanted to mention was my remark the other day about only doing what you want for others, no more than what you want, as a way of avoiding disappointment. You asked if this applied equally to very close friends and family as well as the world at large? Actually, I believe that it applies to everyone. For me its important to avoid resentment by not doing things for others if I don’t want to do them. Of course, for close family, I want to do what I can. But still, there can be trade-offs and choices. For example, a very sick parent over a long time needing our help and support, needs to be balanced against the needs of a child and partner. Personally, I think the child comes first, as does my husband, so I can only do some of what is needed by the relative and not everything. As you might know, I had two family members were very ill over a long period and they needed major support. But I could only do so much. Several of us siblings were helping and we tried to avoid resentment of one another (blaming one another for not doing more, for instance) by only doing what we could and no more. Some of us lived far away and needed to travel for hours to be able to help out. The ones who were nearby had other issues to deal with, so it meant that sometimes our family members needed to make-do for a while with local services and professionals. The helplessness that sets-in sometimes is a problem in itself. Like, in my family, sometimes the sick people want the VIP support level (someone to drive them to the door of their appointment and to mop their brow), when the basic support is all that’s available that week (drive yourself, or go in the ambulance, or with a friend or neighbour). I am taking about regular appointments ere, things that happens every few weeks. The VIP experience is nice, however, that might mean one of us taking several days off work to travel there and provide it. So, its a choice that should be freely made, not co-erced out of you, even for close family members. That’s what I believe. It may be very different for others and all families have their own dynamics as well (mine can be difficult, at times).
Trifles,
“I’ve been racking my brain trying to figure out who Marcia reminds me of. Why it’s Karen – not the generic Karen, but Will & Grace’s Karen! 😉🍸”
I’ll take it. 😀 I’m too old to be “the hot one.” I guess the “funny, drunk one” is the next best thing.
Dear 🅱️ 🧙,
Thank you for your message that enlightens on my “misuse” of some words or conception, due to the language and cultural differences.
“I think I am correct in saying that, in the west, to ‘judge’ someone else normally has negative connotations. It basically means making your mind up that someone falls short in some way. So it is basically a criticism of someone else.”
Ok, I get it. In my use of word “judge”, in my COO language, it’s a neutral word— meaning you evaluate, deem, measure… so “judge” could mean “judge” negatively or positively. In my context, I tended to (wishfully) see/imagine xLOs’ merits more than they actually had, or ignored all red flags.
Furthermore, when negative proofs crashed onto my face, I still tried to find excuses for their behavior at cost of my own mental and emotional detriments. ET is the latest example: it had to take several dreams for me to really face and accept the undeniable truth that was buried inside the Unconscious all along (logical mind T is weaker when F is lagging behind).
“This negative spin probably comes from the bible saying “Judge Not, Lest You Be Judged”, in other words, if you criticise others, you can expect to be criticised yourself (or something like that).”
As everyone here knows, any religion, including Buddhism were banned/tightly controlled by the government. I know litter text of any religious doctrines. Communism was/is supposed to be worshiped over there.
“In your comment, you put a more positive spin on the word, as-in, seeing the good in people to your own detriment when they let you down somehow?
Yep, that was what I meant. LO#1, #4 were exempted from that list. My Unconscious finally adds ET to that list, against much of my unwillingness.
“I think that’s maybe an example of a very slight difference in language between our cultures, perhaps.”
Yes! It is a “huge” difference. You’re so insightful and considerate for my possible ESL and cultural misunderstanding and differences. Seeing you as my surrogate Mother is marvelous, superb “judgement”, right? 😊
“Actually, I believe that it applies to everyone. For me it’s important to avoid resentment by not doing things for others if I don’t want to do them.”
In COO, because solid friendship is emphasized, so one would not feel resentment by doing things for them, even if one does not want to do”, under the condition that those solid friends don’t expect or demand such an “entitlement” constantly (like Mila’s xLO, he’s expecting too much without reciprocating the same amount and quality, IMP). I’ve seen it again and again in my circles over decades, very touching and respectable. If one feels resentment, then s/he is considered (judged) as a true friend. It’s one of top traditional virtues over there.
“Of course, for close family, I want to do what I can. But still, there can be trade-offs and choices.”
When it comes to take care of close family, under COO’s top 1 virtue— filial to elderly, one even “sacrifices” more of one’s own time and energy, without resentment or complaints, as if it were elderly’s birth right. It’s highly valued throughout centuries, like the #1 profession — educator. The emperor needed to be taught first. (Bottom three professions: 1. prostitute, 2. performance artists, and 3. trade people)
Such a traditions have sept through every societal cell for over 2500 years (after Confucius); one can see it in all its public services —Elderly/children first! COO people severely judges the West for one of its cultural phenomena — “trashing”/ignoring the old. Many COO folks return to the country after retirement, even without their children accompanying them. The society would treat them better.
“For example, a very sick parent over a long time needing our help and support, needs to be balanced against the needs of a child and partner. Personally, I think the child comes first, as does my husband, so I can only do some of what is needed by the relative and not everything.”
In the tradition of COO, grand children would be taught, expected and involved in taking care of aging grandparents should they need (all my cousins, uncle, aunts were so filial, kind and through caring to my grandparents until their last breath). It’s a part of family education — children can’t be spoiled — ignoring their elderly or getting away from not doing household work starting at 5 or 6.
People take pride for such an education; there are morality courts that fines adult-children for ignorant their aged parents. It was never children’s “heaven” nor elderly’s “hell” over there, like here. I’m not sorry for such a generation (by proportion of population), it’s a truth. Individual needs (mental, emotional, physical) is over-emphasized here, and insufficiently attended over there. Psychology studies and treatments just began over there.
I see your very valid points and understand the tolls that could take on caregivers’ life. The resentment is very understandable, because the load of living in the West is much heavier than some of developing nations. I did not know to such a full extend that you have to do so much for your family, in addition to your work and your own family. I really feel for your burden.
When Mom came first, I resented deeply that I had to “take care of” her, due to my cptsd that was originated from her. She was very depended on Dad on ALL matters, which outraged me since she’s physically/mentally able to do them. So I argued and yelled, training her to be more independent (aside from the language needs) while doing whatever is obligated on my part. Nowadays, my cptsd has been largely healed, so I don’t mind my obligation. There is no way to get around it, so just do it as a form of accomplishment.
Also, there is another tradition in the East: learn how to like what you HAVE to do (not just do what you like), so the obligation becomes easier. It’s like practicing meditation.
I really appreciate it that you (and LaR) take time and efforts to ask about questions or confusions caused by my language limitations or cultural differences, instead of assuming something negative or anything else that might be sooooo irrelevant to the topics/issues involved. That’s true maturity, compassion and genuine kindness!
🫂
Typo: “If one feels resentment, then s/he is considered (judged) NOT as a true friend” (like what I 🔥 at 🚜’s cynical sentiment on his MFF, last year).
Of course, the number of such solid friends is very small, perhaps 1-5.
@Sammy: “All that glisters…”
I JUST read this in an article in my local paper last night. It was Shakespeare!
Did anyone ever find their ‘glimmer’ changed over the years? LO1 got a lot more attractive as they grew into an adult, so when I see someone that has similar features it definitely does something to me…(I guess I also secretly hope it IS LO1 when I see that person out of the corner of my eye) having said that, LO1 could have grown an extra head and I would have been into it.
But I noticed with LO3, long after my LE with them, their hair was the same as most of my non-LO crushes. So then my glimmer shifted slightly to match a very specific phenotype I’ve always been attracted to. Thing is, I never realized I had a thing for this feature.
I notice odd similarities between the various crushes I’ve had, but differences too. I think there are certain fundamental qualities I go for. Whether they turn into a relationship, a normal crush or a limerent episode just depends on circumstances.
I just want to give an update on my hairless guinea pig, Cristobal. He seemed to be on the mend but has suddenly taken a turn for the worse.
I rushed to the vet for more meds, but I don’t think he’s going to make it. I am hoping for the best, but having had many small animals over the years, it doesn’t look good.
Life is full of so much loss.
Oh Norma.
Sending you both my thoughts and best wishes.
Come on little fella! You’ve got this!
Jmmo
Cristobal passed away right after I posted that message. Thank you for your kind thoughts. Hairless pigs seem to be a little more fragile than the regular ones.
Norma, I’m so sorry for your loss… perhaps you could tell us some fun story of his life?
My dog, Friday (street found, half Maltese & half Westie), died of a heart disease in my arms in 2016. He’s such a gentleman who understood many full sentences such as, “I can’t take you out this time.” He then would sit down without begging or clinging to you.
The best request he’d indiscriminately take from friends and family — “Friday, please give me a kiss!” You’ll get your gentle 💋 immediately!
Guinea pigs are not nearly as demonstrative as dogs. However, Cristobal really stood out from other guinea pigs in one respect. He purred A LOT. When he heard my footsteps coming toward his cage, he would purr.
With all the pigs I have had over the years, he is the only one who did that. I like to tell myself that he enjoyed my company, but he probably just wanted food.
Your Cristobal sounds really special — he can purr like a cat! a guinea pig can purr!
My Friday can stand and walk on his hinged legs, everyone thought he was lost from a circus… He was my dreamt dog! (Small, white, soft fur)
https://imgur.com/a/nuPSd2h — Friday, Friday, where art thou? 💞
Oh, my goodness, LO lost a Westie two years ago, and the resemblance is eerie!! He had that dog 17 years. I was only around for the last two months of the dog’s life, so didn’t get to know him well.
Aww… Animal friends are so important and loved! Hugs 🫂 from a stranger on the internet
Norma,
Condolences from me too for your loss of Cristobal.
LaR 🫂
Condolences! Pets are so hard to let go of!
Oh my goodness, @Norma
I am very sorry for poor Cristobal, and for you. You are an excellent guardian, and taking such good care of him. I am keeping you and Cristobal in my heart.
I used to have guinea pigs when I was growing up. I know their care is quite specific, and I know what sweet and loving companions they are!
csc
I was surprised he took such a sudden turn for the worse. I had been treating him for Bumblefoot for about 6 weeks and he was improving. He seemed fine last night. Worse this morning, and I raced to the vet for new meds. I only was able to give him one dose of medicine before he passed.
I am so very sorry Norma. Thinking of you.
Hi @Norma
I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your sweet friend.
Thinking of you.
csc
One more update. I was so devastated over the loss of Cristobal, I decided I had better get a new pig. I was disappointed to learn that it is now next to impossible to get a hairless pig, since apparently they don’t sell very well. The stores that used to carry them, now don’t. I didn’t feel like driving 100 miles to a hairless pig breeder, so decided to get a regular, short-haired one.
I found a darling baby boy and named him Francis after the Pope. I grew up Catholic and have a lot of animosity toward the Church, but Francis seems like he was a decent man.
Hi Norma,
very sorry for Cristobal and all the best luck with Francis! Cool names.
When I was a kid we had a guinea pig who also did a lot of purring when we came home etc. I love the sound.
@ND,
I am sorry for the loss of your pig. No words I say will probably make it better, but at least you have found consolation in acquiring a new one..
I hope he affords you many years of joy.
Also, I am Catholic and find your naming him Francis quite cute and adorable. I get your irritation over the church but perhaps not the entire reason, which you don’t need to share if you do not desire..
The church is rife with flawed humans. Many whom, who have not made it better. I continue to participate but am struggling with what I feel is a need to reform the Novus Ordo Mass to include more reverence. This is just a starting point for me. (I have many complaints 😑) However, I’m just one opinionated person who will probably never move any mountain over it. Sometimes I wonder why I still attend..
To MJ:
I went to Catholic school and one of my major gripes is abuse by nuns. LO also went to Catholic school and reports the same. Another friend of mine reported that she developed a stutter because of fear of the nuns. I have no trouble believing this.
I have nothing but contempt for this kind of gratuitous cruelty.
To MJ:
At the risk of beating a dead horse–I saw a story on the news about a gay man from South America who formed a friendship with Pope Francis. This man had been molested by a priest at some point. His story came to Francis’s attention because of the sexual abuse.
When this young man was first trying to draw attention to his story, a bishop or someone in authority in the Church said, “I don’t believe he was harmed. He’s gay. He liked it.”
That kind of nastiness is what I have come to expect from the Church, which is why I have not attended in over 50 years.
I had a family member that was a nun. Very nasty person. I think there was a lot of resentment because she was forced into a convent, because they had too many mouths to feed.
Of course, there might have been another reason…
To Lf:
Being forced into a convent is a whole different matter from choosing it yourself. I am just shocked at how much faith my parents had in these people that they knew nothing about. Most of them did not have the proper temperament to be around children.
MJ,
I saw your post about how you are taking care of your dad. It’s beautiful that you are making so many sacrifices to take care of your dad. I understand your hesitation to move your dad to a care center because we (my brother and I) did our best not to move my mom to a care center, too. But now that she lives in a care center near me, I see that she is better off. Let me tell you a few things that have improved since she moved to the care center.
The biggest improvement is that my mom isn’t lonely anymore. She eats meals and does activities with her friends (other residents) every day. My mom has become very social and she loves participating in meals and activities.
The food at the care center is better than she was eating at home. It looks good, smells good, it’s nutritious. I am very careful about what I eat so my meals are balanced and nutritious too, but not three times a day every day. Sheesh, I can’t keep up with that. Her dining experience looks like something you’d get on a cruise.
Her health has improved because she is getting her meals and meds on a consistent schedule. My brother and I tried to keep my mom on a schedule when she lived with us, but it was very challenging. She used to watch TV late at night and I felt weird telling my mom that she had to turn off the TV and get some sleep.
My mom’s needs are getting met and it isn’t a burden to me, my brother, or our spouses and kids. My husband never complained about my mom living with us and neither did my sister-in-law when my mom lived at my brother’s house, but there was an extra stress at home. Just to give an example. I take my nephews and nieces on outdoor adventures. One day, I had two hikes planned and my mom was planning to go with us. She fell at the beginning of the first hike (nothing serious, but it was enough that I didn’t feel comfortable taking her hiking anymore). This caused a big problem. We still had a second hike, but I had my mom with me. I felt conflicted because I couldn’t take care of the needs of the rising generation and the needs of my mom at the same time because the kids needed some outdoor fun, but my mom needed some indoor safety. There were other adults with me who didn’t know how to lead the hike and who shouldn’t have to be responsible for my mom. I was extremely conflicted. Thank goodness that my sister-in-law stayed in the car with my mom while the rest of us hiked. My sister-in-law is my husband’s brother’s wife so my mom was essentially a stranger to her at that time. I’m so grateful that she helped out because I was very conflicted. Anyway, stuff like that doesn’t happen anymore. I only bring my mom along for activities that she can participate in and when we go camping or hiking, my mom is safely getting her needs met at the care center.
There are other things that I want to share with you, but my adult daughter wants me to cook her a meal, so I need to get off my phone and serve my family.
Best wishes, MJ!
Thank you @Lovisa for your words and comment. I am short on time at the moment, but will reply to this when I have time. Just wanted you to know I saw this.
No problem, MJ. There is something else that I want to ask you, too. Tonight in my music class we touched on Catholic Mass. I don’t think I have ever attended mass, but now I want to. How can I? Is it okay for a Mormon to show up for mass? How should I dress? How would I find one?
Thanks!
Hi Lovisa,
I think anybody can show up to any mass no matter how they are dressed or their confession! Or it should definitely be like that, otherwise it wouldn’t be Christian. But of course I’m on another continent, other posters might know more.
I remember the first time I went to the church I attend now, 2 years ago. I wore chinos, collar shirt, tie, waistcoat and black fedora. After the service the pastor came to talk to me and he says “Are you trying to outdo me?” with a laugh. I was like “Uhh no?” And he laughs and says “You look sharper than me.” To which I responded “If I went to church dressed less than this my own mother would send me to my room.” To which he laughed. It’s now an on running joke with the pastor and much of the congregation that I am “over dressed” at church. But tbh I am as surprised at how relaxed people’s attire is going to church as they are as surprised at what I wear each Sunday.
Thanks guys! I want to be respectful. Would a Sunday dress be better than nice office attire? Should I wear something that I would wear in a courtroom?
Mila, what do you mean by “confession?” Is that part of the service? I’ve seen it in movies, but I thought it was a separate experience that happened on a different day.
Lovisa,
sorry, here I got the word wrong, it‘s different in my language. I meant Christian denomination, or religion, faith!
@Lovisa
The biggest challenge for me at the moment is quite literally being the only family member doing anything for Dad. Neither of my kids have much interest in helping out and I only call on them if it is absolutely necessary. My Daughter doesn’t like seeing Dad with all his challenges and would rather be aloof about things. My Son has a physical handicap that puts him at odds with being able to help out more too, so it’s best if I just consider them out of the picture, before I really start thinking about how helpful they could actually be, if they truly wanted to be and could look beyond themselves now and then. Even if not in an actual physical way. Sometimes it’s just moral support I need, but then again, maybe I’m getting too dramatic. It’s simply hard being the only child.
I’m not especially close with any of my other relatives and the one Aunt that I do still speak to, is up in age and unable to do much. She’s lost half her mind anyway because she takes care of at least 75+ cats in her neighborhood and can’t get a grip on the problem. (She really is a crazy cat Lady) Not only that, she practically lives in squalor and it’s sad. It’s a situation that even I can’t comprehend at times, but I don’t try to get too involved either. She’s somewhat loony so it’s hard to even talk to her at times. This because she got addicted to pain killer meds. It’s a wonder she’s still living and breathing.
As for Dad, the reason he says he wants to stay at home is because it’s where him and Mom lived together and being there reminds him of her. It’s like the only thing he has left that helps him feel attached. Mom has been dead since 2018 and almost all of her stuff is still there. It’s like being in a museum. There’s clutter and junk and all the toys they got for my kids when they were little and the whole place is overwhelming to me, with the mountain of stuff that needs to be gone through. It’s a task that I so want to avoid but know I can’t.
Dad won’t leave it because he knows he will be sad. He talks to another one of my Great Aunts who lives out west and her family moved her to a care center but she hates it. She misses her house. She told my Father everything she didn’t like about it and now he’s sold he’ll never go. I’ve told him I’ll never force it unless I can’t physically lift him anymore, because when/if he loses his strength, getting him around anywhere will be the most demanding and I’m only one person. The only person.
This is the glimpse of my current family life and what I do to stay emotionally afloat. I could probably rant to you for days about it. I’m glad in your situation, that a care center is what has worked out best for your Mother. It sounds like you have a close-knit family. About the only person that’s willing to ever help me is my Ex. (Believe it or not.) But even she is not always available. Yet still gets the call when I absolutely can’t handle things. Divorce only compounds this at times. I don’t want to depend on her but sometimes just have to.
As for attending a Catholic Mass, there is no restriction against a Mormon attending. I would start looking around in your local area or just by word of mouth if you know anyone who is Catholic.
Most Catholic churches strive to be welcoming so you should not feel out of place. There really is no dress code either. (Which sometimes I have an issue with) and you may even see shorts and t-shirts. I find it tacky but if their hearts are in the right place, who am I to judge? I just don’t like it when those people sometimes administer holy communion to folks dressed like that. That to me is then disrespectful. It’s about the leadership of that particular parish then. Which again I could rant to you for days about but the church is not perfect because we as humans are not perfect either. However I do believe good taste and decorum needs to be factored in, if a person is going to serve in any capacity, in the church.
I’ll refer you to Easter Mass celebrated recently at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington DC. This church holds a special place in my heart because I sang here with the Boys choir from my home church in 1984 for a music convention. I also had an opportunity to play the organs here in the mid 90s. It was the thrill of a lifetime for me. As far as I’m concerned this church should be the model of what all Catholic churches in the US should be striving towards. The Archbishops homily in this video moved me to tears and the music is like no other. I watch the mass every week from here and I almost get more out of it versus actually going to my home local church.. You can watch this and get a taste of what to expect when/if you decide to attend mass yourself. Let me know how it goes.
https://www.youtube.com/live/7DNnKLJllzA?si=wvN_bZjWgJa5XeWh
As far as I know, anyone can attend Mass. You’re not supposed to receive Communion, though, unless you’re Catholic.
I would just wear nice office attire. If the other congregants dress more casually, you can always dress down if you want to go back. Better to be a little over-dressed if you’re not sure.
Back in the Stone Age, we used to dress up, but I’m sure things have changed a lot.
Mila, that was a funny mistranslation. Thank you for clarifying.
MJ, you are carrying a heavy burden. I can’t imagine struggling through the situation with my mom alone. I have a great support network. I don’t know how I would have managed without my husband, kids, siblings and in-laws. Yes, even my husband’s family have been helpful during this process.
We were surprisingly lucky that my mom didn’t have any emotional attachments to her stuff or her condo. She had already lived with us for several months before we cleaned out her condo and sold it. At that point, she didn’t care about her things. However, she was not willing to move to a care center for two reasons. My step dad had a bad experience in a care center. Also, when I was a CNA in high school I took care of elderly folks in care centers. I made the stupid comment, “I would never put a loved one in a care center.” Gosh darn it, my mom remembers what I said and she thinks it is relevant today. I was sixteen years old. I didn’t have enough life experience to know if my loved ones should reside in a care center. Anyway, my husband and I visited a lot of care centers before we picked the place where my mom lives. To persuade my mom to move there, I called it her apartment. We visited a few times before moving her in, too. The place where she lives has a month to month lease so she can move anytime. Maybe you could ask your dad if he wants to try out a care center for a month to see if he likes it. Maybe not. Now that I think about it, I doubt that you want advice from me. I’m sure that you’ve thought this through many times. It would be so hard.
Thank you for the information about mass. I will definitely let you know if I attend one. I’m going to watch the video that you shared as soon as I finish typing this message.
Wow! MJ, that was beautiful! Thank you for sharing it with me.
@Lovisa,
I’m glad you liked it. Should you decide to experience it in your area, I hope it resembles something similar.
I’m sad and cannot see the benefit of NC at all. The only saving grace is convincing myself that contact is unwanted by LO and LO doesn’t value me reaching out. But that makes me feel sad also and contributes to the negative self talk. LO hasn’t reached out to me or asked how I am. I need to accept that I have no part in his life. It’s so hard to accept that. I feel like I’m getting weaker and just crawling through day by day.
Because of the jealous colleague Ie mentioned previously feel the need to forfiet some friendships including with LO. She said she hoped i wasnt hanging out with people she knew without her (I.e LO and another friend). So very posessive, and so uncomfortable it makes me angry but it is a blessing in disguise i guess. Still really hurts. It’s been 2 weeks of just feeling sad and moody now.
Whoomp,
Hang in there. It is painful, this journey you’re on, isn’t it? The benefits of NC take more than a couple of weeks, and show themselves slowly, but each day you’re building up now counts eventually – it is accumulative. I have had to take a more roundabout route than NC, but we have people here like @csc and @justmeandmyobsessions who can tell you what the difference felt like at 3, 4, 5 weeks NC (they are currently at that point or so), as well as posters now reporting being more over it. It is pain before gain. If you can keep going, you will slowly notice that LO takes less of your thought time and you have a little more bandwith for other things. It is usually a slow awakening, with days where you may feel slides back, even as you move forwards overall.
Well done for starters for identifying that thought in his direction is unhelpful. Feelings take time to catch up with thoughts.
One thing I observed in my LE – I used to get occasional spaces for LC or NC of around 2-3 weeks. They bought me temporary headspace, but as long as the prospect of resumed contact of the same nature as before lay on the other side, they were kind of wasted NC – the pain without the gain. What I’m saying is stay the course if you possibly can – awful as it may feel for now.
Plenty of us very active here if you need to reach out.
LaR
Thank you. I never thought I’d be someone who was on this journey so long. It’s been over 2 years since this whole thing started. I’ve only really managed LC for about 6 weeks. The idea of it not taking as much space in my head sounds really appealing. I want to keep going but sending a message is so easy. I went back to work today and saw LO was online and worked really hard not to message. I have to remind myself that hearing from me is unwanted otherwise LO would reach out. I will keep going and try and document it more. Thanks again
One of the best ways to combat this, imo, is brutal honesty with yourself. If you stepped outside yourself and just observed, what would you think of this behavior?
@whoomp
It helps me to think, anytime I want to reach out in any way, to LO, that I am “bargaining”.
This is a phase in grief. The bargaining phase. You are in grief. You’ll go through weird stuff. Sad stuff. But you go through so you can get to the better place.
Have you watched Following Fenna on youtube? She was (still is!) hugely helpful for me. Her longer videos are amazing. They really helped me feel understood and like I was not crazy… No contact id incredibly hard for a while.
She is a limerent. So, she knows from experience.
Hang in there. It’s worth it to regain some control. And worth it to get off that painful rollercoaster so you can move forward in your life. ❤️
https://youtube.com/@followingfenna?si=6rXAMyhHh_2FGF90
Whoomp
I just stumbled across your post (thanks Lim-a-Rant for the name check).
I say this to try and reassure you, but NC really, really sucks. So badly. What you are experiencing is normal. I am 3 weeks in, and believe me my ups and downs would make a fighter pilot nervous. If I can give you any advice (apart from whatever you do, don’t break NC. You’re only harming yourself further), is to try to ignore the noise outside regarding other friends, etc. You are trying to detach yourself from an addiction – nothing less. Try to focus on why you’ve gone no contact, and watch the Fenna videos suggested by csc – she introduced me to her and she’s amazing . What we are doing is right. It’s for us. It’s for you.
I feel like my LO doesn’t care, but ultimately it doesn’t matter. Because if your LO showed any signs of care, you’d be back where you started. Oh, I’m saying all this but believe me, I’m having trouble believing it.
Hang in there Whoomp. I’d absolutely be glad to help wherever I can .
I know that you have this Whoomp. It’s a long and at times painful journey. But it is the road to recovery. I’m more convinced than ever.
Keep in touch, and best wishes.
JMMO
I was in LO’s neighborhood last night on an errand. I parked near his house. He is away on a business trip and will return next week. He has a large, high-maintenance house, so it stands to reason that he would need to have people come over and take care of things for him while he’s gone. He has an aviary on his property and at the very least, someone needs to come over and feed all the birds.
Anyway, I noticed two people walking in and out of his house, and I wondered who they were. It occurred to me that I know very little about his life. I was discussing this with a friend of mine and she said, “You’re not inside people. You’re outside people.” Meaning that he doesn’t see me as a trusted friend.
She was so right. I usually see LO a few times a week when he’s around and yet he doesn’t tell me things. As an example, his mother fell and broke her hip last year, and I didn’t find out until a week later.
I really have to face the fact that, even though LO considers me a friend (he told me so), there are “friends” and there are “friends.”
This being the coffeehouse ….
I bought two tickets, for Momma and I to a Terri Clarke concert in state in September. If 40 something me told 20 something me I was excited about going to a country music concert, 20 something me would have thought I was crazy. So I have been listening to Terri Clarke for the whole morning at work. By the time September comes Momma will be tired of me listening to her if I don’t use my headphones. 🙂 This is only the second concert I have been to in my life. And the first one was strictly for Momma. I bought the tickets for her and went with her. But Avenged Sevenfold is NOT my kind of music. But enough overpriced beers and I was having a good time despite.
To the Daisy
William Wordsworth
In youth from rock to rock I went,
From hill to hill, in discontent
Of pleasure high and turbulent,
Most pleas’d when most uneasy;
But now my own delights I make,
My thirst at every rill can slake,
And gladly Nature’s love partake
Of thee, sweet Daisy!
2
When soothed a while by milder airs,
Thee Winter in the garland wears
That thinly shades his few grey hairs;
Spring cannot shun thee;
Whole summer fields are thine by right;
And Autumn, melancholy Wight!
Doth in thy crimson head delight
When rains are on thee.
In shoals and bands, a morrice train,
Thou greet’st the Traveller in the lane;
If welcome once thou count’st it gain;
Thou art not daunted,
Nor car’st if thou be set at naught;
And oft alone in nooks remote
We meet thee, like a pleasant thought,
When such are wanted.
3
Be Violets in their secret mews
The flowers the wanton Zephyrs chuse;
Proud be the Rose, with rains and dews
Her head impearling;
Thou liv’st with less ambitious aim,
Yet hast not gone without thy fame;
Thou art indeed by many a claim
The Poet’s darling.
If to a rock from rains he fly,
Or, some bright day of April sky,
Imprison’d by hot sunshine lie
Near the green holly,
And wearily at length should fare;
He need but look about, and there
Thou art! a Friend at hand, to scare
His melancholy.
4
A hundred times, by rock or bower,
Ere thus I have lain couch’d an hour,
Have I derived from thy sweet power
Some apprehension;
Some steady love; some brief delight;
Some memory that had taken flight;
Some chime of fancy wrong or right;
Or stray invention.
If stately passions in me burn,
And one chance look to Thee should turn,
I drink out of an humbler urn
A lowlier pleasure;
The homely sympathy that heeds
The common life, our nature breeds;
A wisdom fitted to the needs
Of hearts at leisure.
5
When, smitten by the morning ray,
I see thee rise alert and gay,
Then, cheerful Flower! my spirits play
With kindred motion:
At dusk, I’ve seldom mark’d thee press
The ground, as if in thankfulness
Without some feeling, more or less,
Of true devotion.
And all day long I number yet,
All seasons through another debt,
Which I wherever thou art met,
To thee am owing;
An instinct call it, a blind sense;
A happy, genial influence,
Coming one knows not how nor whence,
Nor whither going.
6
Child of the Year! that round dost run
Thy course, bold lover of the sun,
And cheerful when the day’s begun
As morning Leveret,
Thou long the Poet’s praise shalt gain:
Thou wilt be more belov’d by men
In times to come; thou not in vain
Art Nature’s Favorite.
https://youtu.be/TLOVgO8cvx0?si=NIw9sx7EzvjG1bCn — Olympico
To a Daisy
Alice Meynell
1847 –1922
Slight as thou art, thou art enough to hide,
Like all created things, secrets from me,
And stand a barrier to eternity.
And I, how can I praise thee well and wide
From where I dwell—upon the hither side?
Thou little veil for so great mystery,
When shall I penetrate all things and thee,
And then look back? For this I must abide,
Till thou shalt grow and fold and be unfurled
Literally between me and the world.
Then shall I drink from in beneath a spring,
And from a poet’s side shall read his book.
O daisy mine, what will it be to look
From God’s side even of such a simple thing?
Marcia
“Everything he references is from the ’60s. 🙂”
I take exception to this!
My range runs from the 60s through the late 80s at which time my development was arrested. I still have some memories going back to maybe 1958.
Age does catch up with us.
Several years ago I was in London on a business trip. I was walking around and passed a hotel I’m sure my wife and I stayed in on our honeymoon in 1990. It’s Hilton now but it was something else back then.
I went inside. There were 3 young ladies working the desk. I asked if the hotel had a different name in 1990.
“None of us had been born yet.”
LE,
“I take exception to this”
It was too easy to get you to respond. 😀
Slow morning.
Marcia,
Trifles,
“‘I’ve been racking my brain trying to figure out who Marcia reminds me of. Why it’s Karen – not the generic Karen, but Will & Grace’s Karen! 😉’
‘I’ll take it. 😀 I’m too old to be “the hot one.” I guess the “funny, drunk one” is the next best thing.'”
For what it’s worth…
I didn’t watch Will and Grace consistently. But, when I did, Karen was my favorite character. I love Megan Mullally as an actress.
@Marcia – Just curious, which one is the hot one?
Bewitched,
“Just curious, which one is the hot one?”
That’s not for me to decide. The other side has all the power in those decisions.
But based on their posts, she’s somewhere between 28 to 30.
For the women, I’m nominating Sammy. He wrote he looks like Robert Redford. I’m picturing the Robert Redford in “The Way We Were.” 😀 (LE won’t get that reference. It’s from the ’70s. 😀)
“But based on their posts, she’s somewhere between 28 to 30.”
Ears perked up like a dog.. 😉
“Ears perked up like a dog. 😉”
Seems self evident that it was meant as a slam.
“The way we were” – I love that movie @Marcia.
Robert Redford was perfect in it. And I aways loved Babs’ ‘plain Jane’ foil to Redford’s out of this world desirability. The match/mismatch of those two works beautifully. So romantic!!!
Bewitched,
“Robert Redford was perfect in it. And I aways loved Babs’ ‘plain Jane’ foil to Redford’s out of this world desirability.”
I didn’t think of her as a plain Jane. She was so bubbly and intense.
I saw an old interview with her. When she met her now-husband James Brolin, she told him she didn’t like his hair! That takes nerve. And instead of being insulted, he dug her honesty. You gotta love that. 😀
Streisand is not a “conventional” beauty, but she has talent and personality. That goes a long way.
Marcia,
You wouldn’t have caught me dead watching “The Way We Were” in 1973. “The Sting,” yeah, it starts in my hometown. I like Robert Redford ok as an actor. I really liked “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.”
However, all the girls in my HS loved TWWW and mooned over Robert Redford.
I like to listen to Barbara Streisand sing. I don’t much care to watch her act. I think the first movie I made it from beginning to end with her in it was “Meet the Fockers.”
LE,
“You wouldn’t have caught me dead watching “The Way We Were” in 1973. ”
You don’t have to like the movie, but I’d be studying him if I were a man. 🙂 It’s his demeanor. He’s always holding something back. He’s not dancing around, trying to win over the woman. It’s very sexy.
Marcia,
“You don’t have to like the movie, but I’d be studying him if I were a man. 🙂 It’s his demeanor. He’s always holding something back. He’s not dancing around, trying to win over the woman. It’s very sexy.”
Maybe. If I remember correctly, “Gone With The Wind” was in a re-release. Most of us were trying to be Rhett Butler. A few guys tried to be Ashley Wilkes.
LE,
“If I remember correctly, “Gone With The Wind” was in a re-release. Most of us were trying to be Rhett Butler.”
I don’t think he exists in real life. He’d have to be a rogue and be comfortable living outside the male hierarchy.
“A few guys tried to be Ashley Wilkes.”
It is a good portrait of an LO. Indecisive. Wanting to have a foot in both camps. But, to me, not sexy.
38 yr single Mom.
Marcia
„“A few guys tried to be Ashley Wilkes.”
It is a good portrait of an LO. Indecisive. Wanting to have a foot in both camps.“
Yes! Ashley is the prototype of an LO, now that you mention it!
There’s a long discussion of GWTW in an old post.
We were talking about it in HS. I made the comment that I didn’t understand what women saw in Ashley. One girl commented that I wouldn’t.
The women in GWTW are far more interesting and have way more character than most of the men. Aside from Rhett, my favorite character in the movie was Dr. Meade. I like his outlook and attitude. I think he and I would have been friends.
I kind of see myself as Tom, the Yankee Captain, solid but unremarkable. Also, Rhett is constantly looking down his throat and I’d like to think I’m smarter than that but maybe not. I kind of wonder how Tom survived the war. But his character isn’t well fleshed out.
The same actor who played Scarlett’s father was Uncle Billy in “It’s a Wonderful Life.” Scarlett’s first two husbands are a disgrace to males. IMO, there are 3 decent males in the movie.
👩🦰 🏃♂️,
I could help agree with you that “Scarlett’s first two husbands are a disgrace to males“. But personally I still dislike Rhett Butler (as we discussed last year), he’s simply too macho and uncouth to me, he is a type of men I tried to avoid all the time and would fight with my intellect … But obviously I was/am not Scarlet, who, in COO lens, too competitive, selfish and heartless. She does not even love her daughter that much.
I remember when it was introduced to COO, people discussed about why it’s popular, and the only thing positive they could conclude is that Scarlet is a fighter, whose spirit to survive and succeed is unbending. But by COO morality (influenced by Buddhism), people don’t understand why Scarlet is a main protagonist (supposed to be morally positive in COO).
We also could not comprehend why Scarlet is so emotionally “addicted” to Ashley, while he’s her best friend’s husband, where there is a troop of young men/“puppy dogs” trailing behind her. Some COO folks thought there much be something wrong with American culture to have this film and Vivian Lee won Oscar….
After watched it several times after coming here, I still hold my the same views. I admire Scarlet’s unbending strength, which is not unfamiliar to my “survival” of all sorts of ordeals…. But Melanie character was very unfamiliar to my upbringing, I guess due to COO’s ideology. There were a couple of very kind, good-tempered mothers of my gfs resembled her, I wished so much they could adopt me into their family.
I re-read and re-watched GWTW 15 years ago, and it comes to my mind often as an example of limerence. Scarlett is more of an anti-hero; you admire her tenacity and brains but hate her at the same time. She screws over even her own family to get ahead. Yet her limerence over Ashley is all too familiar. Though I couldn’t get why she didn’t transfer her limerence to Rhett! He may not be a good sort of man, but he’s suited to her. Maybe they’re too much alike?
SL 📕,
She’s an example of having a face, brain, but no heart! (My Mom is worse, for having little brain and independent spirit.)
I think in one watch at the end, I said to myself, “You deserve it!” I felt very sorry for Rhett Butler (although he is not my cup of tea), who seemed unable to get over her… I thought that one day, if the story continued, he might come back for her again and still get treated heartlessly by her, who is a ‘w’itch”!
“It’s his demeanor. He’s always holding something back. He’s not dancing around, trying to win over the woman. It’s very sexy.”
@Marcia,
That’s how I am. A certain mystery that oozes attraction and desire. Thanks for noticing Dear. I try to make it obvious to you.. 😉
MJ + Marcia! A love connection on LWL? 😉
MJ,
“That’s how I am. A certain mystery that oozes attraction and desire.”
And I’m Marilyn Monroe. 😀
Serial,
“MJ + Marcia! A love connection on LWL? 😉”
He’s into much younger woman. Not a turn on. Sorry. 😀
LE,
” I made the comment that I didn’t understand what women saw in Ashley. One girl commented that I wouldn’t.”
Were there girls who liked Ashley? The last thing you need in a time of reconstruction after a war is a philosophizing man of inaction.
“The women in GWTW are far more interesting and have way more character than most of the men. Aside from Rhett”
I agree. The movie is what years ago was called, somewhat derisively,
a woman’s picture, with, say, Bette Davis or Joan Crawford starring. Apparently it’s why Gable was reluctant to play Rhett. Plus, it’s a supporting role.
“Dr. Meade. I like his outlook and attitude. I think he and I would have been friends.”
I remember him telling his wife to remember herself after she asks what Belle’s place is like. 😀
“I kind of see myself as Tom, the Yankee Captain, solid but unremarkable.”
I seem to remember him having some humor.
“Scarlett’s first two husbands are a disgrace to males. ”
Agreed.
Marcia,
“Were there girls who liked Ashley?”
Sadly, as I remember HS, the answer is yes. There was one guy who I think would have been the quintessential Ashley. He was very popular with many of the girls in HS.
There was one girl in my class who looked like Scarlett and had the attitude to match. I really liked her. She was one of the few girls in class who could stand up to me and match me quip for quip. I got on her bad side and was never able to recover. I suspect that I took it too far too often.
As for Captain Tom, I’m thinking of the scene where Ashley gets shot. Tom asks for Rhett’s word as a gentleman. Rhett laughs and Tom buys it. I’d like to think I’m not that gullible.
There’s only one clip on YouTube and it stops about 30 seconds too soon.
“And I’m Marilyn Monroe. 😀”
@Marcia,
Gentlemen like myself do prefer blondes. 😀
“He’s into much younger woman. Not a turn on. Sorry. 😀”
Key word “into”. Doesn’t mean “always into”.. You shouldn’t sell yourself too short. Just because Brother Thadeus thinks you may be past your prime doesn’t mean I do.
MJ,
“Gentlemen like myself do prefer blondes. 😀”
There are so many responses I could write (something about being blonde all over), but Dr. L would get mad. 🙂
“Key word “into”. Doesn’t mean “always into”.. You shouldn’t sell yourself too short. ”
The younger women are a dealbreaker.
“Just because Brother Thadeus thinks you may be past your prime doesn’t mean I do.”
Who is Brother Thadeus? I have a feeling that’s a religious reference, which I won’t get. See, I’m too heathen for you. 🙂
LE,
“Sadly, as I remember HS, the answer is yes. There was one guy who I think would have been the quintessential Ashley. He was very popular with many of the girls in HS.”
Really? IMO, it’s the one failing of the movie. There’s not a strong enough love triangle because … well, is there really a contest? Would any woman pick Ashley?
“There was one girl in my class who looked like Scarlett and had the attitude to match. I really liked her. She was one of the few girls in class who could stand up to me and match me quip for quip. ”
I like her already. 🙂
” Rhett laughs and Tom buys it. I’d like to think I’m not that gullible.”
Is this the scene where they bring Ashley back to the house and he’s been shot? I don’t think he has a choice but to accept Rhett’s answer. I didn’t read it as Tom being gullible. Everyone knows Rhett is no gentleman. But it’s been a while since I’ve seen the movie.
@Marcia,
As long as you know I am a true Gentleman, with nothing but good intent, that’s all that matters.
“Who is Brother Thadeus?”
I wrote that in referring to the common men you believe are dissing feisty old broads like yourself. Obviously it can’t be that bad if you’re getting whistled at and complimented by married Dudes. 😉Consider yourself blessed. I can’t even get a f—-ng coffee date..
“I’m too heathen for you. 🙂”
Not a problem. My standards are not what they once were either.
Must be a mid-life crisis thing.. 😆
„ I made the comment that I didn’t understand what women saw in Ashley“
But that’s exactly why I think he is the perfect example of an LO. We can see that he‘s not all that, but Scarlett is completely immersed in her limerent fantasy of him.
I‘m not that much into Rhett Butler either, with his winking and moustache, but as a character he‘s mire interesting and sincere than Ashley, of course.
MJ,
“As long as you know I am a true Gentleman, with nothing but good intent, that’s all that matters.”
I never said I liked gentlemen. 🙂
“I wrote that in referring to the common men you believe are dissing feisty old broads like yourself. ”
I can tell they are. I’d say 75 percent of the attention has dried up.
“Obviously it can’t be that bad if you’re getting whistled at and complimented by married Dudes.”
The Whistler … I think would whistle at a corpse. 🙂 The other one’s not married but not single. It’s not like he’s going to do anything. Was he complimenting me because he wanted me to compliment him? Very possible.
“I can’t even get a f—-ng coffee date..”
Because you’re asking a woman who is half your age. And, I’m sorry … who isn’t really giving signals. I’m assuming you’re referring to LF.
“My standards are not what they once were either.
Must be a mid-life crisis thing.. 😆”
Ha! Mine aren’t, either. That’s why I mentioned the Whistler. At my age, I look at it as … a fan is a fan! 🙂
Mila,
“But that’s exactly why I think he is the perfect example of an LO. We can see that he‘s not all that, but Scarlett is completely immersed in her limerent fantasy of him.”
It really is a good portrait of limerence. And at the end, when Melanie dies, Scarlett finally sees that she hasn’t meant all that much to Ashley. It’s all been in her head.
“I‘m not that much into Rhett Butler either, with his winking and moustache, but as a character he‘s mire interesting and sincere than Ashley, of course.”
Uh … Rhett is a million times hotter. Let’s been honest: He has BDE. 🙂
Marcia,
what’s BDE?
“I’m assuming you’re referring to LF.”
@Marcia,
Not really. (I’m in serious strict LC with her at the moment.) I’m talking about the whole female human race. She could 18, she could be 53. It doesn’t matter.
I got nobody in my corner. It’s just coffee anyway. Not a marriage proposal. It doesn’t have to be date. It doesn’t even have to be coffee. We could sit and watch grass grow, but it’s like I’m wearing a sign that says avoid me.
I agree with you that a fan is fan, but I got nothin.. You’re the feisty old broad and I’m the crotchety old Dude..
👵🏻🧓🏻
Mila,
“what’s BDE?”
I’m assuming you have access to the urban dictionary. 🙂
MJ,
“I’m in serious strict LC with her at the moment”
Honestly, I would keep it that way. I think you’re trying to force a friendship (she sounds closed off) and she’s not the only woman in town.
“but it’s like I’m wearing a sign that says avoid me.”
Who else have you tried to ask for coffee?
Marcia,
“Would any woman pick Ashley?”
I think many women would pick Ashley. He’s educated, refined, articulate, and comes from a good family with money and position. He will do what’s expected of him and her status rises with his.
Couple that with he’s passive. All Scarlett’s pre-Rhett husbands were controllable. Ashley wasn’t much different than a lot of Scarlett’s other suitors. He just got her attention. Scarlett was a reactive opportunist who took advantage of people. Rhett was better at the game than Scarlett was. He also appeared to have a decent conscience.
Cutting off Scarlett wouldn’t have been all that easy for Ashley in their social circle, even if he’d wanted to. It didn’t help that Melanie didn’t see Scarlett for who she was.
LE 👩🦰 🏃♂️ ,
I read an unforgettable essay once that Melanie clearly knows what Scarlet is doing, but she knows she cannot compete with her outwardly and win the war over Ashley. So she used her utter femininity to “manipulate/battle”, which would even disarm Scarlet’s “sword”…. The essay says it’s Melanie’s only yet very effective weapon — Ashley buys such femininity more than Scarlet’s aggressive charms.
I can’t remember the detailed arguments of the essay, but it’s really convincing to me. As I said, I felt comfortable to see Melanie character — too unbelievable in my upbringing. You can’t weave a stick on her for any arguments when she just throws you a mushy, cotton ball.
Typo: “I felt uncomfortable to see Melanie character…”
I often missed the word “no” or “not” in my correspondence with others. Then in last couple of years, I finally figured out the reason: in COO, we can’t and are not “allowed” to say direct “no” or “not” to others, making them lose face. One finds other ways to indirectly, tactfully say/show “no”.
So controlled by my subconscious, I habitually forgot type/write “not”, “no” or “un—“ when I clearly meant to.
❄️🙌 👩🦰 🏃♂️
The more I learned about Cluster B personality disorders, the more I came to think Scarlett was a borderline.
That doesn’t seem to be the case. According to https://psychcentral.com/pro/exhausted-woman/2016/03/understanding-histrionic-personality-disorder#1, Scarlett is a Histronic. Some sources also peg her as an Anti-social.
However, Histronics are still Cluster Bs in the DSM-5 along with Anti-socials, Narcissists, and Borderlines. My experience with Histronics is limited. I think I may have only tangled with one of them.
LE, the 👩🦰 🏃♂️,
I agree with your and others’ assessment on Scarlet, who is also anti-social. However, despite her much unwillingness, she still helped Melanie, she could not be truly mean to her, due to Melanie’s femininity. Despite any jealousy, Melanie is not going to make Scarlet her enemy, she needs her strength!
But she could be so heartless to Rhett, the only person who could appreciate and accept Scarlet for who she is! I agree with you that he has a decent amount of conscience and can play the game better. But he just could not win Scarlet’s heart (if she has any), the poor man!
LE,
“I think many women would pick Ashley. He’s educated, refined, articulate, and comes from a good family with money and position. He will do what’s expected of him and her status rises with his.”
Ah, yes, you’re right.
I think he’d probably be fine as a friend, to have a good conversation with. But the rest of what you listed doesn’t mean anything to me. I forget it means something to other women.
I see Rhett as someone who really knows who he is (he’s his own man), can see through the bulls**t of society, enjoys having fun and being a bit scandalous, and is, hands down, going to be better in bed. Let’s be honest.
“Couple that with he’s passive. All Scarlett’s pre-Rhett husbands were controllable.”
That’s true. And his passivity and indecisiveness would drive me crazy. He has that mid-Atlantic accent that was popular in the ’30s. It’s a lady boner killer. 🙂
” It didn’t help that Melanie didn’t see Scarlett for who she was.”
She saw the best in people. Scarlett did have some redeeming qualities. Scarlett saved her life and her son’s life. She was a survivor. And in times like those, you needed a survivor.
LE,
One more thing: In terms of Scarlett’s husbands … I don’t know if you can use those as examples of “her men.” They’re both crimes of opportunity. Isn’t the first one Melanie’s brother? She wanted to be closer to Ashley. And she married the second one for money.
@🅱️🧙
this ☝️ — https://imgur.com/a/or2l87X
Hi Snow,
I am seeing a blank screen. Maybe I missed something?
I hope you have a fun day….
🅱️💗🧙,
It’s a “tech” issue…. I’ll tell you later, perhaps. I’m doing well! 😊
Have an easy day on your end! 🫂 💗
Marcia,
Scarlett accepted Charles Hamilton’s proposal almost immediately after Ashley announced his engagement to Melanie. It’s a great example of reactive Histrionic behavior.
Charles’ character isn’t well fleshed out in the movie. The give him an inglorious death early in the war. I didn’t read the book. Maybe there was more to him in the book.
Frank Kennedy was Scarlett’s sister Sue Ellen’s beau. Scarlett snaked him away from Sue Ellen because he had a good head for business and she could bring in Ashley.
Frank would never wield more than local influence.
Ashley, however, was different. Had the war not intervened, we’re talking future governor, congressman, or senator. Melanie was a better choice to further that kind of ambition.
Trifles,
“But, when I did, Karen was my favorite character. I love Megan Mullally as an actress”
I like her, too. Loved her on “Parks and Rec.” And loved her husband, too. Nick Offerman.
Sorry. That was meant for LE.
Too old to be the hot one? You’re just a couple of years older than me! Of course you can still be the hot one! 😉
Um…have you read the posts on this blog? Do you live in the world? 😀 I’m a formerly.
There are a lot of well-preserved 50-somethings in my part of the world. 😉
‘There are a lot of well-preserved 50-somethings in my part of the world. 😉”
Has nothing to do with that. It’s on-the-street attention. It dries up after a certain age.
“It’s on-the-street attention. It dries up after a certain age.”
I’ll bet if you asked 55 year old Gwen Stefani if that’s true, she would tell you different.. 😉
“I’ll bet if you asked 55 year old Gwen Stefani if that’s true, she would tell you different.. 😉”
Of course. She’s famous.
Eh, I never liked teenage boys yelling lecherous comments at me anyway. That’s pretty much all the “street” attention I ever got around here. It’s a small town
Serial,
“That’s pretty much all the “street” attention”
It was a metaphor for rando attention.
“Eh, I never liked teenage boys yelling lecherous comments at me anyway.”
I ain’t no hollaback girl!
Serial,
I’m not just talking about catcalling. I’m talking about some random guy buying you a drink at a bar. Or approaching you on the street for directions and then chatting you up …because the directions were a ploy to talk to you. All of that stops when you get older.
I didn’t really get that from strangers, but then, I married young, so there was always this guy with me, lol. I DID get guys flirting with me playfully, friends or co-workers or at church. Hasn’t stopped. 🙂
Serial,
“I didn’t really get that from strangers”
I did.
“I DID get guys flirting with me playfully, friends or co-workers or at church. Hasn’t stopped”
What do mean by flirting? I have rando guys talking to me. I don’t assume they’re flirting. People I might see repeatedly due to my job and we strike up a conversation. My male co- workers will rib me a little.
I don’t call that flirting.
For flirting, I would need something obvious. Compliments on my physical appearance. (Not “You look nice.” ) Or innuendo.
Playful teasing, a look in the eye, a wink, silly nicknames….I found some old chats I saved with a friend back in the early 00s and they got racy sometimes, lol. Two people told me he had a crush on me, and I see the proof there. Chats with guy friends online can get just awful, lol. Current LO gets shameless. One past LO would call up his female friends and say, “What are you wearing?” And the like. This guy at church got jealous because I kept hugging LO and not him, lol.
Serial,
“Playful teasing, a look in the eye, a wink, silly nicknames….I found some old chats I saved with a friend back in the early 00s and they got racy sometimes, lol. ”
That was twenty years ago.
” One past LO would call up his female friends and say, “What are you wearing?””
I don’t know if I’d find that flattering if he was doing that with his female friendS (plural).
I did forget about 2 guys in the last week. One whistled at me. (I forgot it for a reason. :)) And another was complimentary about my appearance. He’s not single. And so of course very hot! For what it’s worth: Partnered dude looking for validation.
You asked what I mean by flirting….That’s simply what I mean. Does it have to “mean” anything—no. Whether it still happens—Yes, all the time. 🙂
Serial,
“Does it have to “mean” anything—no.”
It doesn’t have to but it has a lot more weight if it does. Then you know someone is truly interested.
I am sorry that I seem to be monopolizing so much of the Coffeehouse.
Some of you may recall that my hairless guinea pig, Cristobal, died this past Wednesday. I mentioned it to one of my neighbors. Apparently she told ANOTHER neighbor, who is nice, but is kind of a preachy holy-roller type.
She has invited me to church and I have politely declined. This is NOT the Calvary Chapel person. I will at least give this lady credit for not going to such an extreme church.
Anyway, she sends me a note of condolence on the loss of Cristobal. I thought, oh, that’s nice. Then she launches into this thing about how Jesus loves me more than anyone could love any pet, and that “Jesus hasn’t given up on you.”
Excuse me? I have told her that I prefer to pray in private. That doesn’t mean I don’t have any faith. What she sees is, I don’t practice like SHE practices, therefore, there is something wrong with me.
Frankly, I don’t care if Jesus has given up on me or not. I do the best I can to be a decent person and I try to contribute something of value to society.
“Mr. DeMille, I’m ready for my close-up!”
Good on you, Norma. You are a lovely, caring decent human being. Who gives a flying wass-name what she (or he) thinks?!
Best wishes
Jmmo
I have PTSD from things that have happened at church, and I prefer to pray at home alone. She thinks that because I won’t go to church with her, that I am some sort of lost soul.
Dear Norrma,
“Mr. DeMille, I’m ready for my close-up!”
So sassy – I love this! I may need to steal this line 😆.
To Bewitched:
Trying to keep a little humor and sass in the midst of grief.
I am sure Gloria Swanson wouldn’t mind if you stole that line.
Ugh! There are reasons why I left Evangelicalism many years ago. 😛 This is one of them. Never going back
To Serial Limerent:
There is a surprising amount of intolerance and nastiness. The anti-gay rhetoric is what puts me off the most. You never know what a minister is going to say during a sermon. I fear having a panic attack and having to leave in the middle of something.
One of the weirdest parts about all of this concerns my sister. She is a devout Christian with a gay adult son. I assumed that she liked her church because they were welcoming to gay people. Not so!! It turns out they’re just as mean and nasty as Calvary Chapel, but she just doesn’t talk about it. Kind of a “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy.
So–she gets along great with her gay son, her gay son’s long-term partner, and yet goes to church and just avoids the subject. She insists that it never comes up. I guess it’s a good thing that she can handle all of it, but it seems very weird to me.
A friend of mine is LGBTQ+ and goes to the same church and keeps quiet about it, still chooses to stay. I’ve started saying things here and there to people, trying to get a little more open about my views on the subject. I even left the church for a bit because a previous priest kept going on tirades about culture war issues including trans during sermons. I’ve told a couple of people that that was the reason why. The priest changed and there was much less of that. People say it’s pointless to try to change the church, but we can still try. Some people are trying to change it from within; some are leaving.
To Serial Limerent:
Gosh, I don’t think it’s pointless to try to change. It appears to have changed already, with the different minister.
I am to the point where I feel like listening to a sermon from an unfamiliar church is like playing Russian Roulette. My neighbor who keeps inviting me is deeply conservative, thinks abortion is a “sin,” thinks being gay is a “sin” and thinks Trump walks on water. I don’t know if her views are shared by her minister, but I don’t want to take a chance.
What offends me the most is that she thinks that I simply don’t “get” it. That if I understood, I would believe as she believes, and my whole life would change. This is deeply offensive to me.
Yeah, that’s part of the mindset, years of training in churches to believe that if people don’t think like you, it’s because they haven’t understood, haven’t seen the light, haven’t been “chosen,” are listening to Satan and want to stay in their sins. It can be hard to deconstruct.
To Serial Limerent:
One time, my neighbor asked me if I thought one of my daughters being gay was caused by “sin.” I snapped, “I don’t know! I just love her for who she is!” My neighbor looked startled, as if she’d been struck in the face.
I think she realized that I, as an uninformed heathen, was exhibiting decent Christian values, while she was whining about sin.
Possibly. Sometimes you can break through. I’m proof of that.
Norma Desmond
Oh and great response of yours re sin!
I’m glad I’m here in the UK which is generally less religious and evangelical than the US, although there are still pockets.
Something I’ve been wondering, related to religion. One of the symptoms of limerence is having an ongoing continuous “conversation” with the LO in your head. I wonder if religious people have this ongoing head-conversation with their deity instead and whether it provides some protection against that aspect of limerence? Forgive me if this an insensitive question but I am genuinely curious. Our brains are fascinating things.
To Monochrome:
I don’t know the answer, but I suspect they do. My annoying neighbor talks about Jesus every chance she gets, and it would stand to reason that this occupies most of her thoughts.
For the people who rooted for me yesterday evening:
It went well, I’m not 100% happy but actually I never am at these things, and I’m reasonably proud of myself.
Thank you❤️
And might I add that XLO didn’t send any text of encouragement or inquiry how it went even though I’m very sure he knew about it. I think it’s because I was not enthusiastic to agree to go on that extra trip with him on the upcoming work trip.
Which shows, once again, that we seem to have a totally different view of real friendship.
Well done, Mila.
Pleased it went well. XLO’s lack of interest sounds very familiar. And yes, a clear example of why he’s X-LO.
Jmmo
Great one Mila ! You got through it. I hope you got the support needed from other family and friends ( including us lot 😁)
You know you cannot have any expectations on XLO. (even though you may still have some pang for it, because you arrived at a reason why he didn’t). Just an observation 😘
🔥 🍊 🍷 ,
Well done that you disagreed to go extra trip with xLO. As I said to Bewitched, I absolutely think that your xLO has been expecting too much from you and somehow felt entitled, because you were friends beforehand for a long time. Your SO was right that you’ve spoiled xLO.
If two people can’t agree and act on what solid friendships requires, due to willingness or ability, then unfortunately they can’t become true friends who really can bring each other fulfillment and needed emotional and mental support. Your xLO sounds like he is UNABLE, not UNWILLING to give you what you want/need from a friendship.
I remember this true story when I visited Kassel a while ago to have a small reunion with my best girlfriend and shared boy from the same class in HS. During the trip, we both asked the boy (settled in Norway back then) how he broke up with another shared classmate, since they two matched so well. Everyone thought they’d get married after officially dated 5 years. Both were extremely smart, the boy was thought a “genius” in everything he got hands on, and the girl a beautiful the “princess” (we were both single child, and shared the same birthday, she’s a year older).
The liked show off on very non-offensive ways (Like my Dad). He’s easy going , almost always jolly or goofy, and social with everyone, no one would ever think him narcissistic or arrogant. In my eyes, the boy, my desk-mate, was not sensible enough to others’ emotions, particularly girl’s mind. I never had even remote crush on him, something was missing in him. He made a remark on me during this trip about what the boys thought of me when we were still in HS.
So the boy told us on this trip that the girl suddenly called off their engagement, and he had NO clue why. So he went to ask her, she answered with only one sentence until this day, “if you can’t even sense what are possible reasons (or wrongs?), then what’s the point to explain?” — the line I never forgot. From my stand, she is RIGHT! The boy’s emotional intelligence is LOW, even lower than average, despite all his academic, mathematical, musical achievements (a pioneer engineer in IBM for years and played violin beautifully since young).
My point is that mismatched sensitivity and sensibility cannot work together to weave a solid friendship, despite all the willingness under the Sun. One side is doomed to perpetual disappointment and needs to walk away or keep “a long distance”, and expect 🆎 nothing from the other side.
I don’t believe that limerent and non-limerent type (my xSO) could work out in a long run. You’d end up explaining all the time and get frustrated eternally… On the other hand, two limerents could run into some imaginative troubles, seeing “windmills” spinning when there is not even a thread of wind in the bluest sky… 😊
I finally had a normal, long sleep last night, this blasty jet leg!
Have a good day! 🫂
Jmm, Imho, Snow,
Thanks! Yes, I had support from family and colleagues and friends, and from you amazing people, and I didn’t feel any pang at all on behalf of XLO.
I think for him the situation looks differently than for me: for him, my lack of enthusiasm to go on the extra trip is a sign of me not being a real friend, while for me, his lack of support (only a few words of text required) when I have a scary event is a sign of not being a real friend.
We are just too different. I came to the same conclusion as Snow:
„ If two people can’t agree and act on what solid friendships requires, due to willingness or ability, then unfortunately they can’t become true friends who really can bring each other fulfillment and needed emotional and mental support. Your xLO sounds like he is UNABLE, not UNWILLING to give you what you want/need from a friendship“
I think he is unable, and now that I stopped bending his way on his concept of friendship, he might also be unwilling. At the moment I don’t care much, having had such nice and warm people surrounding me yesterday.
On Snows story, I still think it would be the decent thing to do to explain one time my reasons for breaking up, even if I don’t expect the other side to understand.
I explained myself to XLO (not a disclosure, but my understanding of friendship) and he didn’t understand, but at least I tried…
Wow @Mila
It sounds like you have really reached a good space – that is amazing….
I love how you said right here:
“Now that I stopped bending his way on his concept of friendship, he might also be unwilling…”
It’s an interesting visual – the bending. You have bent many times, I think…in hope. In my mind, it’s like, you’re standing there swaying, and he is just not swaying in parallel. The energy is off….yes….
I am so glad you had the feeling of being surrounded by warm people and feeling positive. It’s so nice to have that contrast to consider when you think about how things feel with XLO. It sounds like things are going in such a good direction.
You have plenty of time to figure out if you need to do any explaining etc. Take your time. There is no rush, and sometimes, it can be a nice gift to yourself to let yourself just feel your feelings, privately. You owe nobody an explanation, and you can take some time to sit with any of your feelings…:)
x csc
Hi csc,
„You have plenty of time to figure out if you need to do any explaining etc.“
To explain what? That I don’t want to go to that trip? I have no notion to explain that, the site is just not my cup of tea at about 40 degrees Celsius..
maybe you misunderstood what I said about Snows story. I meant the girl who just broke off the engagement without explanation. Me, I explained my notion of friendship etc enough, I won’t explain anything any more.
Thanks for your nice message! I‘m indeed in a good space and XLO’s behavior is just a minor wonderment for me.
🔥 🍊 🍷,
I agree with you that the girl should have at last explained to him why she called off the engagement, after she probably had millions of frustrations during their 5-7 year relationship, but he couldn’t get them!
I also correctly assessed that even if she did explain, the boy would still NOT understand. Because during the trip, this boy fell into crush/LE with me without my knowledge at all. I had a new LO in my head so I was quite animated, as I remembered well. When I fell into crush/LE, even a woman might think I had a fall for her, forget about all the men I encountered during an early LE/crush.
The boy came to my town 6-12 months later (?) on a business trip and invited me alone for dinner (my SO did not care since he was my HS desk-mate.) Then, he wore a formal black tuxedo for this high end restaurant; I felt puzzled — absolutely clueless about his emotions. Until he suddenly tried to kiss me in his hotel room, I was shocked up and pushed him away — so embarrassing to him!
I asked him why, he said I showed him a sign that I was having crush on him during that German trip. I did not know to laugh or sigh! — I had a new, unavailable LO in my head but he thought it was him. And he never bothered to hint/talk about such misunderstanding before he came to town with tuxedo!
That’s why I assessed/“judged” he’s either very low in emotional intelligence, or arrogantly thought he could get any girl with his intelligence and worldly achievements (he wore thick glasses, looking very bookish, insensitive and insensible type to my eyes, but really fun since he could talk almost every subject under the sky, even poetry in theory.)
I also learned that my eyes appeared dangerously bewitching (to myself) when I was in early LE, catching almost every male eyes in the street…. 😳 🫣
🔥 🍊 🍷,
You have 🆎 NO need to explain to your xLO anymore! He won’t understand, period! Don’t waste your time‼️
oops @mila
yes I did misunderstand! sorry! i followed the thread back and thought you felt you needed to explain something to XLO~
well i for one am very glad you do not!
haha i love the term “minor wonderment”
like you are looking at this little thing…going….huh!…shrug! 🙂
sounds good to me, Mila!
csc
Totally not on subject/topic but just wanted to drop a note of appreciation to Dr L and all the commenters to the blog. I have been lurking on this website/blog since a few years ago. And I must say it has been such a great help every time when limerence rears its ugly head. It sobers me up and I take comfort in knowing that my experience is not unusual and there’s hope at the end of it all.
It’s sad to say its still the same LO that led me here, the intensity is less strong.
Keep up the good work, Hopeful. You can get through it this time as before. We are here with you.
To Hopeful:
Having the intensity be less strong is a win. We have to take our small successes where we can find them. I am two years into my LE, and, even though I am still suffering, the decreased intensity is a giant improvement.
Glad you’re here, even though we’re in pain.
3 weeks after having the chat with LO, and her walking off in a huff showing me no compassion or trying to understand my feelings – this morning she tried to call me. I was shocked, partly because I thought I’d blocked her on my phone as well as Whattsapp. I know her number – my L brain memorised it.
I cannot believe her gaul – and yet I can! An attempt to regain control and pretend it never happened, just because she’s had 2 weeks off. I’ve been dreading her coming back – now I know why. No, I didn’t answer the call and she is definitely now blocked.
Thanks for listening
Speaking of remembering things about LOs, I realized the other day my cptsd brain remembers so many details about them decades later. I can’t remember 90% of my youth or most details about anyone else.
I’m sorry this happened. But well done for being cross about it and blocking contact. You will get through this.
Thank you. She has made my life a misery this morning. She has been to the office. I was less than welcoming. Then she sends me a teams message stating how awkward it was! I am beginning to think that she is actually a narcissist.
Hi JustMe,
sorry, she seems to lack any empathy and seems to assume everyone views (and feels) the world the way she does.
The fact that you have told her openly the reason why (and not hinted) shows she is acting self-centred and lacks emotional intelligence.
I would just say keep calm and professional, as you don’t want to get drawn into a work drama that she may want to create, that could reflect badly on you in the end.
Must be hard day ! Keep strong
Imho
Thank you. I feel like you’ve really understood her personality traits that have become so poisonous to me. If nothing else, a huge reminder of how different we are, and that a friendship – let alone more – was never going to work. I cannot be in any kind of relationship with anyone who is utterly devoid of compassion and unable to pick up on queues as to why I’m hurting.
There is so much I want to say to her, to get off my chest, but I know it will achieve nothing.
Yes, today has been really hard. Thank you for your support.
Jmmo
Jmmo,
how annoying. I like the woman less and less.
I think Imhos advice to keep professional and calm is a good one. Maybe this annoyance has the benefit of showing you how insensitive and ordinary and ultimately not attractive she is? I mean, she cannot be too bright or at least, as imho says, emotionally intelligent. So where‘s the attraction?
You‘ve had your say, so just stay calm and view it as her problem.
I would show it clearly that everything work related is ok (you don’t want her starting an official humdrum that you mob her)but no private contact. I mean, I wouldn’t block her for work related things or ignore work messages, and otherwise , if you manage to be aloof but polite so she cannot accuse you of anything, that would be great.
The less hassle with her, the better.
Thank you. I appreciate your support.
@Mila ☝🏻
Just to being you up to date as you’ve been so supportive.
Jmmo
Mila
Thanks for your words. You are quite right, I will remain professional but aloof at work. TBH we interact very little on work matters, she’s in a different part of the building in a different department, although there is some things we do and will need to be in contact about.
And yes, I now gave even more evidence of the kind of person she really is. Seriously – what WAS I thinking??
Thanks again for your support. Today has been hard – much harder than I thought that she would make it – but I have made it and will be kind to myself tonight.
I do hope that you’re ok. Your observations about your xLO not contacting you re your thing last night were very vivid to me, in they I know exactly how you feel.
Have a peaceful evening, and thank you again.
Jmmo x
Jmmo,
while I’m not bothered at all by my XLO not contacting me about last night (it’s even a bit of satisfaction that he proves me right in my final assessment of him), I have a whole history of being disappointed at his lack of support, encouraging words etc, and wasn’t able to not let it get to me until now.
So I think you‘ll get there too eventually. The new view of LOs negative sides and lack of care takes a while to sink in.
I bet she has a whole other view of the scenario built in her head, one in which she’s the one who‘s some sort of victim or treated wrongly, that’s why would avoid any encouragement in that direction, meaning it’s good to stay professional and unaggressive.
Inside and here you can rant and hurt as you like of course!
Dear Mila
“while I’m not bothered at all by my XLO not contacting me about last night (it’s even a bit of satisfaction that he proves me right in my final assessment of him), I have a whole history of being disappointed at his lack of support, encouraging words etc, and wasn’t able to not let it get to me until now”
I really am beginning to completely identify with all of this. I hope that I will get there…
She will definitely have her own view, and I have to learn to be fine with that. I am still bursting to tell her about how inconsiderate and lacking in any kind of empathy she’s been, and then to expect just waltz back in after 3 weeks and still have that control. I really am fighting the urge. And that’s what damage she’s done today, because I was starting to feel as though I’d got past that. I will raise your advice from a few days ago when you mentioned about writing a letter where I just let rip – which doesn’t get sent. I didn’t get around to doing it, but now I have a whole other head of steam to let off.
I can avoid her pretty easily at work, and where I can’t I will be curt but professional. I’m off next week so that will help. I’ll admit I did that deliberately.
Jmmo
JMMO,
I think your LO’s actions today are really selfish and inconsiderate of your position.
You are going through the mill and, as you’ll see from my longer post, for different reasons so am I. Let’s be strong. Solidarity ✊️
LaR
LaR
Thanks as always, mate. Your words validate me and help me not to get dragged in to the pit of sadness and guilt. Thanks for being so open about how you see her behaviour.
I have replied to your longer post. Just to summarise, I am in total solidarity with you my friend. We’ve got this 👊👊
Best wishes to you
Jmmo
@JMMO
What…..the heck. Honestly…you did tell her your reasons for being NC, as I recall, right? You had that conversation, respectfully.
She doesn’t seem to be able to respect your boundaries. I understand, maybe she’s upset, her ego bruised, maybe as a non-limerent, she doesn’t truly get it. But…if you have made that request, respectfully, and clearly…she should be mindful of it.
I am being so diplomatic here. To me, the difference is, you respectfully had this conversation with her. You were clear, and adult about it. She is not in the dark, not being “ghosted.”
You have done this like a grownup. Take a deep breath and stabilize yourself. I’m so sorry this is happening. You do not deserve this. You have handled all all of this responsibly.
If I knew you in “real life” I would say, just call me to rant about it, and I’ll be your cheerleader. I will unleash a torrent of expletives and be outraged for you and with you, so you can get it out of your system.
I’m horrified for you.
But, it sounds like you can handle this. at this point…i am detecting your mind has really shifted about this, and it’s not tempting to have this happen. It’s actually really distressing.
x
csc
csc
Thank you so much for getting in touch. It means such a lot to hear from you today.
I am actually ok – ish. It took me by total surprise because a) I didn’t realise I hadn’t blocked her on my phone, so she called as I was driving in, and b) I really didn’t think that she would after 3 weeks. Again, I underestimated her arrogance . I cancelled the call. Did that do it? No. She then turned up at my office. Fortunately a colleague was there so I made polite chit chat. She left knowing I wasn’t happy, then teams messaged me saying “that was awkward”. I asked her what she expected. She just said fine, and I ended the conversation.
She is now firmly blocked across ALL platforms.
Thanks for your encouragement regarding the way I’m handling it. Sometimes I think I’m going mad, so the confirmation is lovely.
I wish we could speak and swear with each other, but having you and my other friends here is so powerful and comforting. Thank you for caring.
I hope that you’re doing ok. Please let me know. And thank you again my dear friend.
Jmmo x
Hi @jmmo
Well, you will be pleased (i hope!) to know that the reason I have not been around is that I’ve been at yoga teacher training.
I have been feeling improved. A bit more creative, a bit more social, and more like reaching out in my life. I have decided to reach out into yoga, as it’s always been a great love of mine. My “hobby on steroids” is how I call it.
So, I am quite creaky today, after 20 hours over the weekend, but also feeling philosophically alive, and socially / purposefully sated. 🙂
As to whether I’ll teach or not, I don’t know. I am deepening my knowedge of the asanas, and the philosophies, and the sources. And that feels very good.
I can only imagine the charged atmosphere for you, at work. You might find you are exhausted after this week. I would not be surprised!
Yes, I think all the way along, you have handled this so well. Better than I have, that’s for sure. My slash-and-burn method is only possible bc my LO is not at my place of work. If he were, I’d be trying to do exactly what you are doing…play the long game, and do it responsibly and respectfully as possible…but…always remembering you must save yourself, and LO is just not good for your emotional state.
You are doing something very, very hard. And you are doing a great job. I bet, in the future, when this gets less intense, (and it will)…you will look back and think how glad you are that you took action.
I miss xLO. But, I feel in the past several days, (this began on Fri of last week)…I feel…like I am really coming out. I feel like…I am not pining as much, I’m not getting as triggered as often, and, when I do, it’s not as intense.
Your situation and mine have diverged quite a bit – I ghosted and blocked and so, will never, ever know if I hurt LO, or if LO is fine, or whatever. But, that has it’s own difficulties…cold turkey is hard. And I do hope I have not hurt anyone. Though…I probably have.
I do care, greatly. You have helped me so much, too. I am just hoping you don’t end up with a stalker, jmmo. haha.
Do you, jmmo. You owe nobody but yourself anything. And, I think the others’ advice on prioritizing keeping a level head at work is spot on, too!
Ok, back to work, myself. I’ve still got half a day to go. Luckily I own the company, so…i know my boss is not going to fire me for being on a limerence blog when i should be working. :)) tho she may have something to say about sales figures if i don’t hop to it.
haha from my awful, lazy capitalizations and poor typing, one would never know i do have the acumen to run a successful business :))
csc
Hi @csc
Yoga? Brilliant! I love yoga. I did it weekly until recently when other things started getting in the way. It’s so good for mind and body. I need to get back to it when my head clears a little.
I won’t do anything silly at work. We interact on work things quite scarcely, so there shouldn’t be many occasions when I have to put the face on. I have a week off next week thankfully.
I know what you mean about worrying about hurting people. Me all over – probably why we get ourselves into these messes. Please don’t worry, you seem such a kind honest caring person that I can imagine it taking a lot for you to hurt someone even unintentionally.
I hope your day is happy.
Oh and I’ll risk being stalked 😂😂!!
Speak soon
Many hugs
Jmmo x
She is an emotionally weak and shallow person. Too naive to understand what you’re going through. Probably unable to handle real depth of what true friendship is.
Unfortunately that doesn’t make things any easier for you, but you’re doing right for standing up for what you know is true. Keep it up..
Thank you for getting in touch, MJ. What you have said validates the conclusions I have been reaching. I appreciate it.
I hope that you are on your journey.
Jmmo
Also, who uses the phone to actually call people nowadays?!
I do. I still have a landline.
Today is the day my LO returns from a three-week business trip abroad. I am dreading his return. I have done fairly well during his absence. I was tempted to text him, but never did. He’s an irritable person, and of course I have no idea if his trip is going well, if he’s under a lot of stress from his client, or what. I didn’t want to take a chance.
One thought has helped me on anticipating his return. I ask myself, “When LO gets back, what will I HAVE?” And the answer of course is that I really have nothing. I never have had anything. I see LO as a hologram of sorts, not a real person, because he doesn’t give much of himself.
During his trip, he was going to be staying at the Ritz Carlton in Paris and spending some time at the Louis Vuitton factory. This is another world to me, something I could never be a part of. It’s intimidating, snobbish, and is the antithesis of who I am. I certainly didn’t want to bother LO while he was breathing that rarefied air.
One time I gave him a gift of a mug with his dog’s picture on it, after the dog passed away. I had the gift in a bag, waiting to give it to him, and he was talking about his fancy clients, for like an hour. I began to feel overwhelmed.
I said, “I am starting to re-think this gift. I’m SO Dollar Store.”
And you should have seen the look on his face. Embarrassment, remorse, realizing how pompous he sounds. He scrambled to re-calibrate. We’re at Starbucks, drinking out of plastic cups. Most of us are very average. Get over yourself.
Served him right. He loved the mug.
Hi @Norma
You have values and qualities of incredible worth. Caring, compassion, empathy…and a giving nature. (You are also very creative and very intelligent. This always comes across to me in the clear, almost deceptively simple, way you phrase things in your writing here.)
These loving, positive qualities are the ones that really do all the heavy lifting in our human experience. They are the cables that hold up the bridge, when all else fails. And everyone has moments where all else fails…even your rarified LO will, no matter how fancy he feels he is. Fanciness cannot *really* protect anyone.
Others try to quench their desires in fancy things, status, and material opulence. Those things are fine – but, they cannot hold a candle to the warmth of a person who cares…a kind ear, a supportive shoulder.
The fact is, what you have, in how you are, is so far beyond “class” that some people strive to achieve. It is grace.
Hang in there today…you have all you need to move on from this, to grow, and probably, to thrive, after this LE.
You are doing such a good job. You inspire me, Norma. I’m doing a lot better these days, myself.
Warmly, csc
To CSC:
Thank you for those wonderful words. You made my day!
For whatever it worth, LO keeps insisting, “I’m NOT fancy!” But his demeanor belies this, and his house–OMG. He has a high-end, fancy house that is indescribable. He once told me, “I HAD to have this house.” And I do understand. It’s a one-of-a-kind house built by an antique dealer, made to look like a 15th-Century French chateau. Completely out of place in an ordinary neighborhood, but it is spectacular.
So interesting that he is such an angry person, despite owning the most beautiful home I have ever seen. You’re right, the objects don’t do it. And even though he hangs around with rich clients, he isn’t nearly as rich as they are, and I suspect he feels inferior. He is far wealthier than any of his neighbors, but when he gets around his high-end clients, it’s a whole different world.
He was telling me how he would have to dress when he went to Paris, and I remember thinking, I’m sure glad I don’t have to worry about that stuff. How silly.
I have made a point of never asking him for anything. I make a habit of taking him inexpensive baked goods.
I tell him, “If you want food from La Cote Basque (fancy NY restaurant favored by society people), you’ll have to ask Truman Capote.”
A fun little joke since we both watched the mini-series “Capote Versus The Swans” from last year. Capote was obsessed with his fancy society friends. LO is not nearly that status-conscious.
I make fun of him because he pronounces the word “croissant” the French way, and I think it’s pretentious. I notice that when he goes to Starbucks, he orders croissants with the American pronunciation because otherwise, the staff can’t understand him. Ha!
🎩 🚜 🌽 🌱 🧊 , our backbone of L’Amoor!
How are you and where have you been? Still flat out or abandoning us, the pining L’Amoor patrons?
You know, as an authentic Limmy, any uncertainty about your well-being brings up my anxiety level…. how am I to serve our loyal customers⁉️
What are you cooking up or mixing up with your 🧊 🍹?
Do you need me to fly to 🇬🇧 to pull your 👃 out?
Be superb! 🫂
Hi Snow,
If you want LaR to see this can I suggest to use his name and not emojis as I know he uses the Search function to catch-up when he has not been so active. (emojis are not searchable)
So I can help already by tagging @ LaR @ Lim-a-rant.
Maybe he is having a vacation/holiday 🏝️
💃,
Gotta you! Thank you!
I can never search my own posts, every post is covered by ❄️… 😀
You are welcome ❄️
It’s the only useful thing I have achieved today ! 🤦🏻♀️
💃🏻
💃,
I’m a multitasker, typing this while proctoring a quiz for my students.
Whenever I have a better sleep, the clarity of my mind and energy level could shock myself — working very effectively and productively.
I read your posts with others, and can feel your “anxiety” and restlessness about your LO’s unsettled trip… can you do some meditation work, just taking a day at time?
Mila has really good advice for your situation. To be honest, I would not feel comfortable or natural to tour xLO if I were in your shoes — it will worsen the residual LE and your longing for him…
Imho,
I‘m very sorry, you explained it somewhere, but I don’t know where- how do you search the site for nicknames? You go on Chrome or something? Somehow I don’t manage to search properly.
Hi Mila,
When in Google on your phone or tablet, you should see three dots in the top right on the top bar, click this and scroll to ‘find in page’
( Or use control+F buttons on a laptop)
Then type the word. So I would type ‘Imho’ or key word or other community members name if I’m looking to check-up on their comments.
You can only search within a single blog post, and not the whole LwL website.
So I mainly search within the recent coffeehouse blogs.
Hope this makes sense. Try it out. Let me know.
💃🏻
If you have an iPhone, go to the square with the arrow pointing out in the bottom bar. Press it and scroll down until you get to ‘find on page’. You can then search for the keyword. I’ve just tried it – I searched for Imho, Mila and csc. The posts come up highlighted.
Hi ❄️
Thanks for that. I understand completely. Just to reassure you, I have no intention of sending it whatsoever. I am merely hoping that it will be a cathartic exercise for me to get it into words. I will do it at home on my own computer, and she will never see it.
Apart from your wise words about the work risk, I also fully agree that it would be utterly pointless in terms of her understanding or accepting. It won’t happen, so I won’t waste my breath. I am totally ignoring her, she can’t contact me on any non-work media. She is as removed from my life as she can be at this point.
Incidentally, I found myself taking more of your advice this morning. I was in the car singing “she is a Narc” to the tune of Carmen! Fits very well!
Thanks again for stepping in ☺️
Jmmo
Just me,
You can also hit (feathere-less) pillows with a baseball bat, so your SO won’t find feathers floating in the air… 🤭
To chant something (or believe in something) is to gradually “program” our unconscious to accept it. Then, at some point when you may be even unaware (e.g in dreams), the subconscious will do the work for you, making your F brain to change its LE clinging.
To me, until my Unconscious fully accept something, all logical T mind and F brain during waking hours would not achieve my aimed goal. However, one has to be patient, our Unconscious is not to be controlled or manipulated by our egotist and controlling mind.
“She is a Narc” to Carmen tone really sounds fitting! Check to see if you feel less hurtful after humming it for days…. Chanting is to dull any sorts of extreme emotions… Also, pay attention to your dreams, if you can remember them. They’re very, very telling… Also, if you can, take a hot bath as the last thing before bed… it really helps “cleanse” our nerve system.
I’d be interested in learning how you’d feel in a few days…
(Reply to Snow but for others’ interest too)
Hi Snow,
I am genuinely touched by the concern in your post, thank you. I think you sensed something (correctly) here …
I wanted to let you and others know where I’m at, and why that might mean my reduced use of LwL for now, or even short breaks like I’ve had the last few days. It won’t be permanent abadonment, I promise. You lot here have been my rocks and I reckon I’ll be around here in some capacity for some time (whether that comes as good or bad news, dear reader!).
I’ve ended up in by far *the* most difficult and ‘stuck’ phase as I exit the LE. The good news is I don’t feel at risk of being dragged back in to limerence. But the bad news is that my energy level, sleep and mental health have been pretty depleted for a good while now. I’m conscious not to harp on boringly about those same things here day after day, as (among other reasons) it might deter other people who want to make a break from their LEs – not all exits will be the same, lovely people. But I am struggling under the weight of three big things to process and deal with – exiting LE with xLO in my orbit, no NC option and not wanting to disclose; some feelings of guilt related to SO (and also not – at the moment anyway – wanting to disclose to her); and biggest of all, having to confront what in me pulled me into the LE to start with. The LE and its dopamine acted as a smokescreen against really facing those things. Only now, without it, I am really being forced to confront them.
I do (as always) welcome any ideas from anyone in reply – however wacky, mundane or anything in between – for coping with this phase. But I don’t expect anyone to have a silver bullet answer. And I am also trying to solve some of it by myself, and thinking about therapy (many of you have been very positive about that, and I’ve been grateful to read it). In short, I have a lot to pick my way through, and if I don’t update so much it is because I don’t want to repeat or seem to try and use LwL as free therapy.
Also – I am very much an all in or all out person in life! One of my purposeful intentions now is how to keep that side more manageable. And within that, I need to figure out a way to stay with the LwL community but not be so ‘all in’ all the time, because it takes a lot of my time immediately when I wake and before I go to sleep. Not being able to look at it at work, or in front of SO (as many of you will experience) sees to that. This is time when I could, for example, read other things that don’t have me thinking about limerence (or watch War and Peace, 🦜!)! LwL has been amazing for me, but has kept my overactive thinking brain on limerence too much of the time. I want to find a balance, not leave totally, but this may involve me being quieter initially while I work that side out.
Genuine question – how does anyone else manage this “being in without being all in” here on LwL – getting use down to a reasonable level but still being an active community member? And not having it intrude too much on their time/sleep?
@imho your idea of tagging the posts is good, so that our handles can be found on the search function. If people could do it as @LaR, then the @ would make it easier, as it wouldn’t bring all the “lar”s within other words into searches.
I know I don’t need to explain or justify myself about all this but it feels better than just disappearing off for a spell and people worrying, like you very kindly did above, Snow.
Having said that, with how topsy-turvy my brain is, maybe I will turn up again tomorrow and splurge a load of posts! I don’t know – I just wanted to get that out and it feels cathartic that I did.
Snow, I know you worked through these long and awkward phases on your own. I don’t take for granted that having a supportive SO around me (and that she is, I just can’t give her full facts for now) should make it easier. But like you’ve said before, the hard work is to be done on the SELF – and that’s very much what I’m starting to confront at the minute.
Thank you for reaching out to me. Again, I am very touched. I’m definitely not deserting LwL but it is true I had been on a ‘conscious pause’. I continue to see you all being very excellent to each other even if I’ve been quiet.
I’ll just take a Giggle tea from Amoor’s tonight, please.
And by the way what was that range you asked about re my height??
🫂
Just to clarify one thing in there – on the ‘any ideas…?’ part, I’m looking for stuff to help with immediate coping mechanisms that fit in short blocks of time (you’ll spot my theme here) – the real life changing stuff has to come more gradually and from within, I think/know.
I have not been able to keep up with the volume of posts in the last few weeks so if anyone has posted anything good that links to that, please repeat for my benefit!!
@LaR
I just wanted to get in touch to say that I am so sorry to hear your plight. I noticed that you’d gone quiet. Now I understand.
I don’t have any pearls of wisdom – my LO has reappeared today and caused all kinds of dramas – but I can imagine the difficulty you are having at present, and I wanted you to know that I am thinking if you.
As LwL use, I am still finding it a great comfort. I have begun to realise that overuse may in itself be an impediment to recovery, but you guys have been so brilliant to me, I feel as though you’re my Limerence family. Just my Penny’s worth.
Please take care and keep me posted as much as you feel able to.
Power and strength to you my friend.
Justme
Just me,
Can you chant: “My LO is a Narc, my LO is a total Narc, my LO is an absolutely f*..g* Narc”?
Trust your intuition, and I’m 120% saying here: she IS 🆎 Narc! (Only your LE brain is unwilling to see and accept this fact!)
@LaR
I would say…honestly, the coping mechs that I have found, that are positive are:
– sleeping (especially if you are exhausted. this is priority number one)
– eating well and healthy, (bc you need a lot of fuel for your neurological and physical recovery)
– knowing that if you are in conscious LC or total NC, you are, technically, back in integrity in your life. No longer living a lie. You are, technically, on the road: dealing with it. It may not feel this way, but, you have taken the wheel.
after basic needs are met and I felt even slightly more stable:
– writing in a journal
– talking with friends
– seeing a therapist
– letting a cute animal distract me
– telling myself things take time
– telling myself no-contact IS self-care
– volunteering to help those less fortunate
– compassionate talk to myself (as if i were talking to a dear friend)
– telling myself I can be patient, it is working.
– watching engrossing movies (just watched the revenant, loved it)
– gentle daily exercise
– meditation (or what passes for it)
(etc)
not:
– drinking too much
– going down LO rabbit-hole
– calling friends only to talk about LO
– eating crappy food
– running myself ragged
– negative self talk
– getting out of integrity by trying to find a new LO
– stalking LO on social, going near his locales, or anything of that nature…
(etc)
and finally:
My mantra: I have ONE job (my actual job, my other roles as a friend, lover, mentor etc can take a back seat bc I am fighting for the rest of my life, here) …
my one job is do NOT break NC.
whew!
🙂
@❄️
Thanks. You’re right. It finally dawned on me today. I will (quietly) chant it.
Not sure what the 🆎 means (not great with emojis! 😂)
Thank you again
Jmmo
Hey @LaR,
Just wanted to send some ✊️ your way.
Tips and advice-wise, I would recommend the same thing I said last time we spoke about this – fight your natural urge to be “all in”. You just need a break. You are far too conscientious about us lot. We’ll muddle along fine. Heck, we will squabble like kids without any grown ups to regulate us 🤣.
As someone who is slightly obsessive compulsive about many things, incl. LwL at times, my approach nowadays is to enjoy catching up with internet friends and hearing about people’s recovery, but not obsessively keep on top of it. I treat it more like a (mostly fun) hobby. Otherwise it just becomes a chore. And you’ve got enough to do. Mental health-wise, it sounds like you’ve hit a bit of a limit. Its great that you noticed this in time to act on it and that’s something you definitely want to get ahead of. You know how to do that, I think, and you also know that you need all your energy for it. You have told us as much.
We appreciate you, so much, and we send you energy to get it done. All that good karma that you have accumulated will come back to you now. When you have headspace, now and then, we will look forward to having some more “LaR balm” again.
Just me,
🆎 means absolutely to me, varying from cases to cases, of course.
Use your T brain to nail the concept into your head— “My LO is a total jerk, Narc! “
Snow
Ah thank you! Yes that makes sense. I ABSOLUTELY think you might be right!
Bewitched,
Its not that I worry about you LwL lot not getting by without me (that would be terribly arrogant!) … more that my absence seemed to have worried others, and that just shows what a kind community this is.
Thank you – again – about reminding me of the need to fight the “all in” tendency. Yes, I know it, and the MH and tiredness has now ‘braked’ me if nothing else did.
I wish the world were different, with no risk of being identified on LwL. If it were, I’d tell you properly about the circumstances that ‘fertilised’ my LE (I am sure many of us would wish for that). Too much “all in” stuff was so central … including about the most “all in” thing I have ever done … which I think you are about the most likely of everyone to understand (or one of). But I guess the crucial thing is that I understand it for myself.
There is lots I have learned and will continue to learn from you – thank you so much x
🚜 🌽,
Sorry to cut in here —
“I wish the world were different, with no risk of being identified on LwL. If it were, I’d tell you properly about the circumstances that ‘fertilised’ my LE (I am sure many of us would wish for that).”
Getting a private therapist might be a good idea, even just for a short period, in which you could be “all in”, unloading the private, burdening stuff in your chest. “Half of” doing anything just sucks!
“Too much “all in” stuff was so central … including about the most “all in” thing I have ever done … which I think you are about the most likely of everyone to understand (or one of).”
Again it could only work in a therapist’s room, or somehow talk to 🅱️🧙 privately. The issue is that the former might not even know LE well. What would be issue(s) for you in the latter approach?
“But I guess the crucial thing is that I understand it for myself.”
🆎! LE might not be caused by just “oneself”… but to get out of it, one needs to do the hardest work — the individuation (to understand and “reform” oneself )ALMOST all by one’s SELF, with empathic hand or supportive 👀 s… . Yet, as you see clearly, we all have to eventually walk steadily and confidently without any walker/cane!
As many have already said, don’t feel obligated to be “all in” here. Our energy is limited, and when we’re so “tired” or still “sick” or still “recovering” ourselves, it’s inefficient to assist others. As I allude before: a sick covid patient can’t help another covid sufferer, beside comforting each other…. LE is worse than covid, there is no universal scientific medicine for such an addiction yet!
I think I told you my experience of traveling in Thailand, where there is few homeless or beggars, but tones of fat street dogs. The principle is NOT to “encourage” dependence on society or laziness — considered by some the only original “sin”. The government there or local people try to help “beggars” with training and temporary or trivial work, so they could learn how to support and live by themselves.
The same here: you genuinely want to support those who are still in much pains of their ongoing LE. But once appropriate treatment plans are laid out, the sufferers HAVE TO do the demanding work on their own to recover. To serve as a crutch, even the best one, is still NOT a total solution to those who seem to be so in need of it, aside from new comers who have little ideas about LE (like myself nearly two years ago, who cluelessly got yelled at 🙄…)
The humbling mind would whisper, without knowing each 👻’s reality, who am I to really know/advise how to cure individual LE effectively… my philosophical or psychological approaches may not apply to their cases.… I can’t change anyone’s personality…. Everyone has to brew their unique doses of LwL herbs, in the same principal soup-base of DrL featured articles. (that’s how COO herbs work).
My intuition told me that I’d see your face today when opening my eyes… (with daily hot bath, I continue sleeping better… less dreams…)
csc
Wow. Just read your message to LaR. It’s really powerful for me today, too. So insightful, relevant, and empowering. I know you won’t mind if I jump on the back of that as I continue in your footsteps.
I am ok today. I feel relief at having “taken my integrity back” by making sure she is totally utterly blocked on anything not work related (even Insta, and she doesn’t even follow me on Insta!) I am going to take @Mila’s advice and write a letter to her telling her exactly what I think and how far up her a**e she can shove it. And then not send it!
I hope that you are ok today and that you have formalised more plans around the yoga !!
Jmmo x
Just me,
Please be EXTRA careful about written words in a workplace… anything written can be held against you at some points….
Concerning who your LO is, I’m not sure it’s a wise solution. The ONLY effective way to treat a Narcissist is just — IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE them. They get fueled both from positive and negative interactions with their preys/victims.
After exhausted in reasoning with Narc Mom, I tried the ultimate IGNORANCE, it WORKED! She stopped automatic manipulating or controlling… then, I take care of her in much better manner.
Snow,
I think you missed the „and not send it“ part?
This technique helped me over the years, but the most important part is of course not to send it.
Jmmo,
I would write it by hand and destroy it afterwards. And take really pains to express yourself well and convincing. Could be that it doesn’t help you, but for me it did somehow.
Mila
Thanks. I’ll do that. I’m sure it will help, just to get rid of some of the pent up stuff that I’d love to say to her face.
She had a couple of dates with a guy around Christmas. One weekend in January she was inconsolable for about 3 days. Apparently she’s changed plans with this guy (I think it had happened a few times) and clearly some other stuff went in that I don’t know about, but he told her very firmly to get the hell away from him. I can see why now! Part of me really wants to do that – but don’t worry. I shall write it and keep it there.
Thanks again. Hope you’re ok x
Jmmo
❄️
On my tendency to try and help (‘rescue’) others here … at the height of my LE I think I did it partly subliminally to make myself feel better. “Can’t solve your own stuck LE? Feel better by trying to help someone else’s!”, “Feel bad about how you’re treating your SO? Why not help someone else be better towards theirs?!” That sort of thing.
It sounds silly but I can only see the above now with some headspace and hindsight.
Nowadays, it’s different reasons why I try to help others. I blithely thought – and argued for a long time – that my LE was special or different somehow … ‘The One with the Happy Ending’ as they might have called it as a Friends episode. Then I knew it wasn’t and I experienced its consequences like all other limmies do. Now, I sometimes see newcomers here saying similar – that their LE is the One with the Happy Ending. I have a special interest in helping people get past that as quickly and cleanly as possible. If I would like one legacy on LwL, that’s it (or maybe being the barman and farmer is enough, actually).
But I well accept every one of these points you made (I paraphrase): one has to be well oneself to help others be well; every LE is different, nobody’s will ever be the same as mine; people have to take any medicine prescribed to them, and learn to walk cane-free – they will only get there at their pace, like me; none of us can wave a 🎩 and solve anything for anyone else.
This most probably won’t stop me trying to offer well-meaning advice to LwLers sometimes. Some newbies react well to the approach, some don’t. It’s all just part of life’s rich tapestry, I guess.
🎩 🚜,
All understood, no need to worry about us … No one can abandon me except my SELF…
Your height: 175-180 cm?
Enjoy your giggle 🫖!
Forget about us, go watch that “War and Peace”!
Or take a hot bath right before the bedtime, which helps my sleep so much — longer and deeper, with less active dreams that are still with clear images and narratives….
Such good advice about the bath 🍅 – I know that will help me. It’s a very gnarly but necessary phase as csc put it, and I’ll get there. Again big thanks for reaching out.
I’m (just) ⬆️ your guess!
🚜 🌽 🌽
I’m right about your height? I saw your face, hair color, height, and clothes… clearly under the “light” of 💭 !
But before you saw my face, I slipped away out of the room ….
🤭
🦜,
I’m just a squeak higher than the upper part of your estimate, but not that much – you were very close.
“But before you saw my face, I slipped away out of the room …”
Who says 🎩🌽 hasn’t already seen it?! 🤔
🌽 🌱,
Ah, that’s after the dream with your fast clicking finger and naked 👀 , not a soulful 👁️, which I could not help employ and empower in my 🔎👀🔍 … then and now…
Only ♋️ 👀 IT … the number has to be a lucky one in my 🌍, on Earth and on Mount Olympia (rarely went to Dante’s Inferno, even if snakes lurking were around)… 😊
Sending you the beautiful spring Sunshine here… Feeling better soon!
We’ve got unbelievably glorious and hot weather here too – shame I am not on vacation like 💃 thought.
It’s a day of big progress for me too 🙂
Blessings!
@LaR
I am so glad to see you, and I totally get it. Your post is reason to celebrate, as it sounds like your time away is because of some seriously gnarly work and contemplation (and recovery) is taking place.
I believe everyone has to find their own way through.
What I can do, is say that yes, the exhaustion, the sleep disturbance, the mental health post-mortem, that needs to be addressed (or, just plain gotten through!) in the wake of an LE is no small thing. It’s major.
I suppose if I had one thing to say, from my life to yours, is…do not squander this LaR time online. This is your existence, your vital time here on Earth…and experiencing it, stewarding yourself through, is so important on many, many levels. Experience the difficulties, and the eventual recoveries, joys, because it is 100% worthwhile.
I hear what you are saying “having to confront what in me pulled me into the LE to start with”. Me too. I understand that. It’s scary. Certainly something to be taken seriously.
I think this blog is many things. Therapy space, sympathy space, blowing-off-of-steam space…and more. A space to be in, a space to go away from, a space to come back to, and to be welcome to… We have all used it as any of those, at various times.
You are cherished here, and I hope you will be well, and if you are here, or not, just know I think of you and how much you helped me, even as you move through your own situation.
Personally, in my own recovery, I have some days where I’m busy. I can’t come on here, because I have something new I’m doing! This is progress. And to me, privately, in my life, it feels so good. I would hope same for anyone here….anyone, and you.
Be well, and I hope you are able to rest and restore, and know you have done the right thing.
xo
csc
csc,
You are so very kind for breaking down the coping like that for me. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. You are great. And I hope – on some level at least – you know your worth.
“you are, technically, back in integrity in your life. No longer living a lie. You are, technically, on the road: dealing with it. It may not feel this way, but, you have taken the wheel.”
Thank you. I had a hunch you’d find the right words for me csc, and these are among the best of them.
When I’m on a stronger day, I’ll write out all I’m doing to cope and move on.
And I get it about not using LaR time online. We have all been doing it a lot as we’ve moved through, and it’s fine when it helps us, as it so often does (see JM comment above). It is all about getting balance. I want to do that, but definitely not go. I will get the hang of the dipping in and out more – I have always been a bit all or nothing!
You sound like you’re doing better. Keep plugging away through the good days and bad x
Thank you @LaR
You are. You are 100% back in integrity. In my mind, I either am, or am not. And by going NC, I am. It happened immediately. That thought has helped me stay in NC, too!
Yes, the reason I could immediately write my coping stuff was that the other day, someone (qualified) outlined “healthy coping mechanisms” for me…
and I realized that I had already been doing some of them — just innately. I will add that one thing, personally, which has truly helped me feel human again, is exercise with others. It’s fun to do things with other people (not SO) and to just be around them. I don’t need to be their best friend, but I participate. I go to a running group, and I also do my yoga with others. It helps. 🙂
yes, you take it steady and at your own pace, LaR. It’s very important to just do your thing. Draw your boundaries…whatever they are…so you can regain your equilibrium, and eventually, your strength. seriously. As I wrote in my journal about it today, I truly could not believe how weakened I was…not to deprecate myself…just as a matter of fact. I was run-down, too skinny, not rested… so strung out…we are doing the right thing for ourselves, taking our time to heal and re-orient in life– wherever we do that. here, elsewhere, both, just as long as it can happen. 🙂
with care, csc
Dear @LaR,
Well, I didn’t expect you to post a comment quite so soon.
I had hoped you may wait a little longer to test my ‘search @LaR theory’ with Snow ! Just so you could shower me with thanks that you found some random but important post addressed to you after 6 months! Ha ha !
But seriously, you are so very generous on LwL with your thoughts and compassion and dare I say leadership at times. You are particularly considerate in your response to others, but time alone ( let alone emotions) is a limited resource that you MUST protect and prioritise for yourself.
I have been here a bit longer than you and I have learned that it’s okay to dip in and out and have major long gaps of absence or not return at all if you don’t feel the need. Maybe not returning here is the ultimate release from limerence?
There is no commitment. You do not owe LwL community anything. We appreciate your participation immensely but no expectations either.
You can come and go as you feel the need.
My SO challenged me at the weekend why I am on my phone so much ! A lot of it is LwL or other L. research, so I totally get it too.
You are doing so well, and recent updates from others here are inspiring me to simply face DoH and get to the other side.
x
@imho 💃
Lol to the SO asking about phone use. So familiar!! That part (sneaking into other rooms to check LwL and bashing out rapid replies when I want to take my time) feels like another bit that it’s time to leave behind. I’m going to do what Bewitched and Mila have in different ways suggested – just look and reply when I actually have time and want to. I think you’re probably quite good at that already.
As for staring down DoH and venturing bravely into the beyond … when you are really ready (that part is crucial, and you’ll know when), I am so pleased you’re thinking about it. Limerence is not as obliging as to let us set a ‘quit date’ – but it could help to almost schedule DoH as like an event. Then you can give it the respect it deserves – almost like grieving or addiction withdrawal. I have carried mine out while trying to do everything else close to ‘as normal’ and now my brain is putting the brakes on me.
If I’d been able to schedule DoH, I’d have taken myself off to a spa or to a countryside retreat (alone) to do it. Of course, it wasn’t that linear. But as much as you can, “put the crash mat out under you” before DoH occurs. Get or keep the distractions in place, plan how you can sleep and eat right (csc has it correct there – just doing those two things right are the most important at first). If you’ll display it to SO, plan what you’ll say – your ‘plausible cover story’. I am getting a lot of concerned “what’s really wrong with you?” questions from SO, but I do have plausible cover – it just feels bad to keep using it! And what, if anything, needs to happen with LO to bring about DoH, and what do you need to do to get there? (thetorical q obviously!)
I look forward to hearing of progress … when you’re ready! x
Thank you @LaR 🚜
I wish I could tell you how relevant your emoji is! Every time I see it… Maybe one day I can tell you. You would be amazed!
Thank you for the DoH crashmat advice ( I saved it on my notes) as I will reflect on this in coming days/weeks, especially as today my LO threw me into in a major Hoop the loop after many weeks silence.
Seems like you have had a major shift today also.
Shame we cannot be more open, but that is the nature of this forum.
I am backing you to have a great outcome and to salvage something good with your friendship.
💃🏻
Imho,
Gawd what is it with that bloomin 🚜 symbol and this place?? (I have an inkling what you are trying to communicate, but can it really be THAT obvious?). I hope one day you can tell us.
For me yeah there are real limits to what I can say but I have had good developments. A quick turnaround from how I was feeling yesterday. If I can say this – I need hope to stay dead, but I need us to be able to get on Ok for day to day reasons. Neither really feels optional. I caught a break with it, I think.
💃🏼&🚜, “Gawd what is it with that bloomin 🚜 symbol and this place??”
I think if there’s one thing that we’ve learned here, it’s that women love a nice 🚜!
Possibly unrelated, I’ve often thought that 💃🏼 and I have the same xLO. 🤿🏄🏼♂️🚜…
🍨🍧, Lol !
I can imagine my LO has /had/will have lots of limerent followers.
I’m trying to convince myself that I am one of many, so your comment helps.
If your xLO is in the same country that I think you reside, then probably unlikely.
For a time Bewitched and I also joked about having the same LO.
Just imagine if it was true !
💃🏻
💃,
Keep thinking you’re just one of numbers, I believe, will help you get out of your LE sooner.
🍀
💃🏼
No, he’s in a different country, south from me.
Yes, perhaps it’s just one busy LO who gets around… 😜
I don’t get it with the truck symbol?
Imagine Trifles, Bewitched and Imho having the same LO! Could be since you all see him very seldom f2f…
Cannot be my XLO, though. No watersports, no followers, no trucks.
Lar,
If you can, spend time with friends. Spending time with other couples is a great way to get your social needs met.
I must take this opportunity to remind ABCD that he owes me a half marathon…
Speaking of couples friends, my SO and I had lunch with some friends on Friday. My SO mentioned that he and I were planning to do a 16-mile trail run the next day and my SO invited our friends to join us. The husband took us up on the invitation even though he had never run more than 5 miles. Our friend did great! We had a nice time running with him. He not only ran a half marathon, but he ran a few extra miles and we did it in the mountains so we had some vertical gains. It was so cool! The moral of the story is that ABCD needs to run a half marathon like my friend. Just do it, ABCD. Pick a race and sign up. Or you could do it the way I ran my first half marathon, just go do it. I ran my first half marathon one morning when I was doing a training run. It was awesome! I felt accomplished. It’s your turn, ABCD.
Sorry about that tangent, @Lar. As far as limiting use of LwL, it’s tough to limit use and continue to provide support which is something you excel at. You might just have to accept that you will miss some stuff when you go absent for a few days. It’s okay.
Best of luck with your new approach to your diminishing LE!
Hi LaR,
Good to hear from you!
It’s easy to get pulled in here and to try to answer every post, feeling obligated to help or advise or update, especially a conscientious, thoughtful and thorough soul like you. I‘ve decided at one point that I cannot take on any more responsibilities in my life here, that I take the freedom to answer only if I‘ve got time and if I feel like it, and if I come over rude or flaky, so be it.
LaR, no one here will take any offense if you vanish for a while or don’t answer every single post that’s meant for you. We all will just assume that you get on with your life and will be glad for you!
Coping strategies- I know I‘m a worrywart, but have you checked everything with a good doctor? I‘ve had two cases in my acquaintance of something serious having been undiagnosed because
the doctors thought it was only stress-related.
Otherwise, sleep,good food, moving…maybe reading will benefit you, I mean real books, not kindle stuff, and good books that busy your mind?
I wish you all the best LaR, always happy to hear from you!
I just want to thank every one of you who has replied so fast and with warm, kind words. I can draw strength, reassurance and practical help from them at a time when I really need it. Thank you for being, as JMMO put it, my ‘limerence family’. Thanks for taking the time to write – and if more ideas occur, I am happy to hear them (without it creating obligation on me to reply lol). I’ll still be around this place but glad I have explained to you why the frequency might be less, for now at least.
Be good! x
@LaR
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your support in my case. I promise that you have made a difference. Take care my friend and don’t be a stranger. Your ‘family’ will be here ☺️
All the best
Jmmo
@LaR,
I have to also thank you for your support here, to everyone. It doesn’t go unnoticed. Yes, like someone said (forgot who! You got so many responses), you’ve accumulated a lot of good karma here, I’m sure you will get a payment soon!
I’ve also been on here less lately, and I get almost overwhelmed now looking at the amount of new posts. It will probably do you good to take short(!) breaks now and then. I am selfish in saying I hope you still visit every now and then.
But above all, take care of yourself 🤗
Trifles,
Thank you so much. I’m going nowhere permanently while my Amoors buddies are still here! Just explaining how/why I might be about less, or more ‘quietly’ while I find freedom from this awful ending to the LE, without folks worrying.
This said – I have jumped through some (for me) absolutely HUGE hoops on the road to freedom today – I’ve proved a very big ‘something’ to myself in connection to xLO – and I am feeling a whole lot better. The bits I’m going through don’t always *feel like* recovery, but I have to remember that they are part of it.
And … second date update please 🍨! I’m intrigued now …
🚜,
Congrats for your circus tricks (hoops)! Yes, you should celebrate every small victory. It’s not easy to let go when you can’t really get away from her in your day-to-day.
I’ll give you not only a second date, but also a third date update! The second date wasn’t great. I think we were both nervous and I was holding back.
I also found out why he can read my mind(!). Turns out he’s studied a form of therapy, in addition to his day job. I’m not sure I like having my mind read…
I think we both realised that the second date wasn’t great, but/because of that, we talked a lot afterwards and it’s clear that we like each other. On our third date we finally got over our nerves. TMI: making out like teenagers in the middle of the hiking path, forcing people to walk around us. The annoying middle-aged lovebirds (I thought that was an oxymoron!) packing on the PDA.
Now he’s away on business for a week but we are in frequent contact and have plans to meet on the day he gets back.
And he was the one I tried to turn down on two occasions! He’s just very emotionally intelligent and forthright, and the way he looks at me… makes me melt. I figured out that he actually kind of reminds me of an old boyfriend from my 20s – who was a former bad boy but the biggest sweetie you could meet. Physically reminds me of him too, not a scrawny guy. It’s funny how some people feel familiar – and when you figure out who they remind you of!
I haven’t met anyone else off the app (I’ve had my profile hidden), bringing my date total to a whole of three people! I told Imho that the first time I tried online dating, the first date resulted in a LTR. Now it looks like the second person I met could be a keeper..?! At least for a little while.
Hi Trifles,
that’s so lovely to hear! I‘m happy you met an interesting guy.
Enjoy!!
🍧,
“It’s not easy to let go when you can’t really get away from her in your day-to-day.”
I have been observing over the last week just how much both of us *still* seem to want to make it work as friends on some level, despite the new more sensible limits. It is quite saddening really, that this is nobody’s fault, but that it got in the way of what was once a beautiful friendship and it has now become a ‘negotiation’. There is hope we can salvage something I’d now say.
“Now it looks like the second person I met could be a keeper..?! At least for a little while.”
Lovely bit of commital and non-commital in the same paragraph there!! Seriously though – it sounds like you’re into each other, so very promising. What I think for you is that after LO and TO, it must be a beautiful thing to experience some reciprocation from someone who is available?! So I would just let it run and see where it takes you for now … without planning a marital home just yet (or I’d have to sell that stake in the farm that I’ve got for you 🤣). I’m really chuffed for you about these developments, though 😁 Likewise, please drop in and update us when you can!
🍨 👏 👏 ,
If you plan a wedding secretly, I dare you to forget to invite 🍅!
It’s 🆎 lovely count of your dates, it’s so cheerful to hear. Please don’t worry about his ability in reading your mind, because you’d save so much time and energy explaining this or that… like small sparks of Twin Flame!
Gosh, it sounds so delicious and brighter than those night texting with clinging TO…
Holding 5% hopes, while trying your might to enjoy every moment with ?? — what’s his nickname (for us to call) ?
Ooh La La Trifles, this is so great to read your dating update.
It reminds me of my friend who gave me highly anticipated dating stories!
PDAs ?! I am a bit envious.
It’s so good you have found a good ‘un so quickly to avoid having to ‘kiss a hundred frogs’ from the app.
Enjoy and have fun ! 🥰
Mila, 🚜 , 🍅 and Imho, aw, thank you! It’s so nice to have your support, after all we’ve gone through together here. 🤗
🚜,
“…There is hope we can salvage something I’d now say.”
Wow, it sounds like it hasn’t been easy for you lately, quite an emotional roller coaster. Here’s hoping it all levels out soon.
You’re so right – it certainly is nice to have someone who is actually a) near b) available and c) reciprocating of course.
“Lovely bit of commital and non-commital in the same paragraph there!!”
Ha, you sound like him – he’s calling me out for this (cautious) attitude as well…
🍅,
“Gosh, it sounds so delicious and brighter than those night texting with clinging TO…”
You are so right! (embarrassing now to think about it!) Although tonight I’m texting with Mind Reader (MR).
“I dare you to forget to invite 🍅!”
And ha, that’s a bit premature, but I would of course be sure to invite the Amoor’s gang, at least as virtual ghost participants!
But 🚜, I wouldn’t sell the farm quite yet!
@trifles
ok i’m barging in here and just did a lot of scrolling through various replies etc to get to the juicy tidbit about the hiking trail… :))
that is awesome! sounds like fun!!!! and it’s really inspiring to hear your tale of romance…thank you so much for sharing your dating life.
not that you have to date, or be with anyone…i’m just glad it all sounds positive, healthy, and like you have a good time together. that’s wonderful!
csc
Admission – I had to look up what PDA stood for!
csc, thank you! I’ve been a little absent here so we haven’t had a chance to interact much – but I’ve been admiring your approach to… everything! Supporting others so actively, going cold turkey kick-@ss NC… Not to mention the way you express yourself in writing! Wow! 😯
Other limerents are probably not the best-thought-out audience for romantic antics, so thanks for putting up with my story. 😅 I agree, the hike was juicy – our first kiss had an audience 😅🙈
Woowoo Trifles! Sounds like things are going well for you! 🙂 Maybe you’ll have that unicorn of mutual limerence that ends up well. 🙂
I’m overwhelmed by all the comments on here lately, too. I have to skim a lot of the time, and figure it’s best to let other people answer, since so many of them do! There are times when I feel like if I spend too much time here, it will make the limerence too much front-and-center in my mind when I do have other things to do and really need to spend more time on my other interests. It gets addictive, though—just like limerence, lol.
BDE, PDA…
since PDA means epidural in my language, I had to look that up, too..
Thanks Serial! ☺️ I don’t think I’ll be falling into limerence. It doesn’t usually happen in these cases where I’m the one dragging my feet at the start. The sweet spot moment for the possible glimmer has passed. (Knock wood)
Mila, I love how specific your language is. 😆 “I’m going to need a PDA (epidural) to get through this BDE (acquisition of operational data)!”
Hi @LaR,
To your question on how to reduce lwl, I’m not sur if I’m legitimate to answer as I’ve not very much presence here, but I did feel the “it’s keeping my mind stuck on LE all the time” that you describe and flew away for a bit. And I will probably again. Do what you can and must: you’re trying to come out of drowning, you can’t ask yourself to swim this like a synchronized ballet swimmer
At the start, I think it helps to set a few days where you won’t answer to lwl, look a bit if you want, the habit should decrease fast. Then go with the flow.
On a more general note, I’m sorry to hear that times are hard. As we seem to oddly mirror this experience, here to. Contrary to what I’ve told you, I’ve considered leaving this activity that I do with LO. I’m usually sad after it, sometimes for days, as I grieve both the LE and the hope that we’d be able to communicate of be friends a little at some point. This inability to resolve the situation echoes small difficulties in our common activity and large difficulties at work (which I probably tried to flee with the LE and have no more coping mechanism) into a spiral of not being worth anything that is often difficult to get out of and can drive me down for days. I could and maybe should leave everything related to her, but it’s an other heartbreak to consider this.
And yet, she smiles at me and exchanges a few phrases when I expected to be pushed away and now everything is fine again 🤦
I feel like my brain is a puppet, and I don’t understand where the strings are.
I’m sorry you can’t talk to so, but I don’t think disclosing would have helped for this phase. I partially told him about this (at least the crush, and the obsession for a bit) but I would still feel guilty to talk about her all the time. And when I’m bad he knows part of it is her, but can’t really offer comfort more than if he didn’t know. I don’t know your so, but I suspect her support, even if she doesn’t know, is already helping you as much as it could in this time of grieving.
Good luck and take care
Hi s.anon,
I enjoyed our chat before. Definitely no-one should feel obligation to reply. I’m due a phase of going quieter here myself, but as soon as I floated the possibility, I felt the opposite. Such is my contrary brain!
I’m feeling quite a bit better. Got some energy and functionality back now. xLO is still very much there in the background (as she always will be until either of us moves job) but we are co-existing with my head more at peace now. I think you are right about all you said about my SO there too.
I think you’ll figure out what’s best about leaving activities involving LO, in your own time. I guess it depends if you think you can ever have the more peaceful co-existence and not have the highs, lows, pain. I still think from what you told us before that written communication (at the right time) might be a way to go, if there are things you want her to hear, but find yourself unable to get across due to your conversational dynamics and processing differences.
Hope you are doing OK for now.
Thanks @LaR,
I enjoyed our chats too, thanks a lot for your consideration and counsels 😀
But to me I think time here is a bit too much LO-adjacent. I want to spend time here, and I do need to talk and enjoy talking to you guys a lot, but it tends to make me ruminate on this, which I am trying to limit.
The problem with stopping the activity on my own time is that it’s based on the scholar year. If I want to stop next year, I should tell her before July, maybe September if I’m not polite (but we’re NC during the summer). And may/ June is definitely the most complicated period to talk, as she is overstressed. I’m afraid the decision starts looming in a period of wild ups and down… I don’t really look forward to it 😱
I’ll consider writing if things get too bad, but she’s a teacher with about twenty students like me, and closer to a hundred persons in her care in the extended activity. Our relationship is on a very unequal footing even before limerence, so it’s difficult to navigate what’s acceptable or not.
For today, I’m ok. Let’s see if we can do tomorrow 🙂
All the best
OMG, I just ran into LO at Starbucks. I didn’t even know he was back from his trip. It was good to see him. I didn’t have as strong of an emotional reaction as I had feared. I told him about my guinea pig dying, and he was supportive. He only met Cristobal once, but he is an animal lover.
I told him about my holy-roller neighbor giving me that annoying religious speech. He said I should take it as a compliment. I said I absolutely do NOT take it as a compliment, I was deeply offended. He and I disagree on a number of things.
He told me that he and his mother were both offended that Donald Trump wore a blue suit to the Pope’s funeral. I said, of all the things Trump has done, that’s the least of my worries.
He was somewhat distracted, due to a meeting with a real estate agent today. Guess he’s going to be listing his house soon. I do have to prepare for the end of this relationship.
Offended at a blue suit? I don’t get it….I’m with you: That’s the least of my worries about him!
LO is into such things and I am not. He once tried to explain to me the importance of card stock on party invitations, and it went completely over my head. He also explained to me why he likes place-cards for Christmas dinner.
I didn’t bother to tell him how impractical this is when children are involved. Little kids can’t sit still for fancy dinners.
I wondered why anybody would concern themselves with anything so trivial.
I think it must be a control issue. There are so many large, unmanageable problems in life. A person might think, well, at least I can control these minor things.
ND,
I feel like you’re seeing him as a human. With all his faults. Plus his quirks that get under your skin.
That was what I hoped would happen with my LO. That I’d get to know her as a human, with faults and issues and failings and maybe I wouldn’t have pedestaled her. I may not have gotten as emotional over what never was and never going to be, versus now still wishing and hoping what we could maybe be someday. Although better me knows those chances are slim.
My recent other fallout with Lady Friend has found a way to exacerbate my sadness again. Although I guess it’s a good thing I see her for who she is now and her true colors are not all that great.
Sometimes being grounded about/over someone and knowing what you’re working with can be a good thing for the mind.
Wishing you well Friend.. 😉
To MJ:
Such a good point. When I stop and think about how little LO and I actually have in common, I wonder why I am so enamored of him. Obviously there is no logic involved. I hate all his fussiness about place cards and such.
I was annoyed that he thought I should not be bothered by my neighbor’s deeply offensive religious comments. His position is that I should accept her stupidity and ignorance as a given. That I should expect her to behave better is naive on my part, according to him. He thinks her behavior is par for the course, and not at all surprising.
Well, I find it shocking and completely unacceptable. I don’t know if I’m over-reacting. It’s not the first time that someone has suggested that I’m naive. Maybe I am.
I wasn’t particularly bothered by LO’s comments, because he did agree with me that she was completely out of line. I do wonder if maybe I expect too much from people.
Hello Tech team,
Imho and Jmmo,
Thanks a lot! It works. I searched for „Mila“ and noticed that there‘s a lot of use of the word „similar“☺️
Hi Mila,
Glad it works.
Try Mila and space button, this will eliminate the ‘similar’ counts.
…and also “Mila,” with the comma as most people start a comment that way.
Imho (tech superstar)
Thanks a lot! Will try it.
Hi Marcia,
I found BDE (in my language it’s something very boring). I wonder what’s the same expression for women…
Mila,
“Subtle, sexy confidence; confidence without cockiness. That guy has so much BDE.”
That’s boring?
Although Rhett is hardly subtle!
No, Marcia, I meant in MY language it means „acquisition of operational data“… that’s boring, right?
Mila,
“No, Marcia, I meant in MY language it means „acquisition of operational data“… that’s boring, right?”
Yes, that is boring. 🙂 It literally translates to “big di*k energy.” I think it’s kind of a funny.
I am sorry I seem to be ranting so much. I saw LO for the first time in over three weeks yesterday following his return from Europe and it was underwhelming. He said he was happy to see me and that it was “a nice surprise,” but I don’t believe that. He could have texted me at any time and never did.
I may have mentioned that if you look up the word “disappointment” in the dictionary, there is a photo of LO.
I had asked LO to bring me something from Europe. He readily agreed, but failed to do so. I did not expect that he would follow through, so am not surprised.
I have to remind myself that he owes me nothing and that limerence is something that I did to myself.
The way I have to look at it is that his lukewarm attitude helps me in my overall recovery. I can’t imagine the state I’d be in if he was friendlier.
Dear Norma
As plenty of people have said to me – Rant Away. This is a safe space.
I’m really pleased that you look at his relative indifference as a positive to recovering. That’s what I’m trying to (whilst balancing with anger against a Narc!). It’s getting rid of that uncertainty isn’t it? That fuel that Limerence thrives on.
Don’t be too hard on yourself. No, the limerence isn’t on him, but he absolutely does owe you respect. Looks like that’s a bit lacking to me.
Keep ranting, and keep going. You’re doing so well Norma
Best wishes
Jmmo
To Jmmo:
Thank you so much for your support. I can’t find the words to describe what it means to me. I am so grateful.
❤️
@Norma
I know this feeling well. My LO used to tell me all the time he would bring me things…samples of things he’d baked. Things he wanted me to try.
Of course, he never did. I’d show up the next day and there he’d be. He sometimes would not mention it. Sometimes he would, saying “he forgot”.
I began to think of it as “The Legend of the Peanut Butter Bars” because…it just never, ever happened.
Saying things like “he owes me nothing” sounds very punative toward yourself.
I think, maybe another way to think of it is the way I began to think of it….What do you think about this phrase, instead (or as a supplement?)…
“Talk is cheap.”
Every time I would think of xLO and his promises, instead of thinking “I’m forgettable” or, “he’s busy, I’m not priority.” I began to think, instead “Talk…is cheap!”
And I began to understand, it’s not just me. xLO probably makes lots of pretty promises to lots of people. Not just me. And, it’s his trait, not mine.
I am a woman of action. And when I say I’ll do something, I take it seriously. I may not be the fanciest woman, I may not be the most beautiful (debatable! haha)…or the youngest, or whatever. But…I am a serious woman. And, I only make promises if I intend to keep them.
I’m sorry you have a flake LO. I too, had a flake. Now after a while in total NC, I am really seeing him for what he was. I wish the same for you, and I believe you are well on your way.
So frustrating though. I know from experience. Rant all you wish my dear.
x
csc
To CSC:
Your point is well taken. But I really feel that LO actually owes me nothing. Well, he owes me that painting. You may recall that I gave him an oil painting in February of 2023 to be repaired and he has not gotten it back from the framer. It’s been done for months, it’s just a matter of him forgetting to pick it up for two years.
I do believe that he’s flaky toward others and not just me. One time I amazed him by remembering the date his dog had died the year before. He couldn’t process the idea that it’s normal for me to remember such things. Guessing he couldn’t do that on his best day.
I am also a person of action. I keep my commitments and I show up on time. I can certainly hold my head up around him, because I have been kindly, generous and reliable. I can live with myself.
Can you get the painting yourself? Do you have to wait for him to do it?
I have to wait for him. He deals directly with the framer and they would not give it to me. Also, it would be insulting for me to get it myself unless I made arrangements with him beforehand.
The problem at the moment is that the framers are going back and forth between two different states. I have no way of knowing when they’re in town and when they’re gone. I have never met them and would not go behind LO’s back.
I actually don’t mind the delay, but I will be concerned if LO gets to where he is on the verge of moving, and I still don’t have it. At that point, I will insist.
The whole thing is stupid. I could have taken it elsewhere, but LO said he was driving up there anyway, and I congratulated myself on saving a trip. I thought it would take a couple of weeks, not a couple of years.
Ugh, so frustrating having to rely on other people! My LO gets like that, too, with anything involving tech. And I have to go through him to get things done because we both have duties at our church. (I don’t want to get too specific.)
„I have to remind myself that he owes me nothing and that limerence is something that I did to myself.
The way I have to look at it is that his lukewarm attitude helps me in my overall recovery. I can’t imagine the state I’d be in if he was friendlier.“
Respect, Norma, that’s the best and most mature way to deal with it! You can still look a bit down on him with his unreliability and not being able to be nice.
To Mila:
I just made the comment to CSC above that I can hold my head up because I have treated him well.
When this whole thing flames out, I don’t think I will have too many regrets.
Some of LO’s behavior has been unkind and irrational, and he always apologized profusely afterward. I am hoping to not have to apologize for anything.
Friends!
I am having a small, but powerful celebration down here. I hope it will be helpful to share, because it illustrates just how desperate limerence can get. I am celebrating 1.5 hours of no-lo-in-my-brain-time!
After 5 plus weeks of total blackout NC, something happened this morning.
I am at work, and have plenty to do. I just worked on a new project here, by myself, totally uninterrupted, and did not have a single thought of LO for about an hour and a half!
I just went to the restroom and while coming back, he popped into my head. But I just made it a solid hour and a half with ….nothing!
All by myself, with no distractions, just me and my work.
A small win, but I will take it. This person has not left my thoughts in over a year. And every thought I had in that year, it was like it had to pass through a thought of LO, orbit around it, and then pull itself away.
So, this is, to me, big, very official-feeling progress!
:)))))
csc
🤖,
Win!
👏🪅🥂😸
tysm ❄️ !
it felt really good. and yes, it felt momentous!
i am hoping to have more blissfully lo-free episodes in the future, this proves it is happening…but i expect it will happen quite slowly…and in a non-linear way, of course.
🙂
csc,
❄️ has many pictorial pseudonyms but
🚜&🎩are not among them!
ha! oops sorry ❄️!
i thought that was you!
ahem…to 🚜🎩🕐
i am very, very sorry i was under the impression when i saw emojis (yes, this entire time!) that is was always a certain 🐦🔥 haha
i will have to read more carefully!
i do think i know who 🚜🎩🕐 is…begins…with L?
csc
Yep csc!
🐦🔥is the naughty instigator of all this emoji stuff, but many have followed. At least 2 more apart from me also use their own emojis sometimes.
🚜🎩🌽🧊 in various combos are me.
Not meant to be secretive, just a laugh.
The 🕑 just means ‘to’
I’ve lost track of who the tractor is. 😛
SL 📕 : If you just look up one post, you’d see who 🚜 is, he defined himself — 🚜 🎩 🌱 🌽 🧊— LaR! I gave 📕 to you! I’m the Witch of emojis and nicknames in LwL!
🚜: “🔥is the naughty instigator of all this emoji stuff, but many have followed.”
So you’re accusing me to have led naughty emoji trend in LwL❓But look how colorful LwL has become? We’re a bunch of intense, highly sensitive limerents, there should be intense colorful emojis infused in our uncontrollable, irrational longing, reverie, illusions, anger, lamentation and waterfall —🅾️, L🅾️, L🅾️, wherefore art thou L🅾️?
I didn’t invent emojis, they’re there all along for anyone to use. I’m fond of them because they echo my mother 👅 — I could not help but think, feel, speak, and even dream in graphics; and 👁️ you guys clearly in 💭 — ratified (by you and DrL) not far from the reality 😳 😮, which has made me feel dizzy… 😵💫 I may soon claim the One 🦄 Only Emoji-🧙♀️ !
Don’t you think, besides conveying thousands of vivid “words”, emojis may possibly change one’s history, at least interrupt a trajectory of a limerence❓ Have you noticed any internal changes/difference between reading words only and words combined with emojis?
Yesterday, when 🧊 & 🍨 “returned”, along with 🤖, with dancing emojis, to count your lovely dating stories or progresses in battling with LE, the whole Continent was suddenly on 🔥, which in return recharged all you guys’ words, so obviously felt in LwL space. That’s a positive, constructive spiral of LE rumbling and mumbling WITH EMOJIS! It’s so lovely 🥰 just to stand by and 👀!
About your other responding post regarding your “all in” appearance here, I never meant that you should not speak up or help others… I was saying what others already said, that you should only do it when you want to, and when you don’t feel physically and mentally tired, depleted or flat.
I also read that you had a “breakthrough” yesterday, which sounded like that you figured out one more piece of the internal causes that dragged you into LE in the first place? Congratulations! As I said to “Just me” this morning, our inner work — analyzing our LE’ internal causes, is critical to recovering from LE. It’s a part of individuation process — the MOST important life journey that helps us became an integral human being.
Nowadays, I rarely think or feel my latest LE, it zoomed in and out less than a few seconds without any emotional colors, just like long, vague dreams I had in the past… I don’t feel any low that “something nice from xLE has gone” nor feel any high that some “victorious steps” needs to be celebrated. It’s almost like Not a Big Deal anymore… the limerence’s stage curtain seems to have finally fell down (dreaming much less now), it’s hard for me to believe it….
The most important is that I don’t feel that familiar, inexpressible, melancholy longing, which has accompanied me since my childhood…. I kept checking for it, but it’s not there. Maybe I have indeed grown to become a needed “parent” to myself, no longer seeking any surrogate parent or any external validation⁉️
I hope you recover more from your depleted mental and physical energy.
❄️🐦🔥🦜🏵🌱🍅🍑,
You know I love the emojis.
Every time I post as 🚜 I have a quiet giggle about it!!
Me saying you were the naughty responsible person for the emojis on here was meant as a cheeky compliment! I agree with the fact they bring fun and light, and yeah also interrupt bad 🚄 of 💭 too.
My favourite one of yours so far is 👩🦰🏃♂️
I can suggest an improvement to one:
🐝🧙♀️
@💃@🍧 and @🐝🧙♀️
To your question 🍧 about loads of you having an LO in common, look – one of the points of a 🚜 is surely to plough a lot of land! (Checks farming manual for accuracy)
🎩 🚜 🌱 🌽 🧊 🍹,
✅@💃@🍧 and @🐝🧙♀️
L 🅾️ 🈶 🧡 💝 💓 💞🫢 ‼️ 🚜 🌽 🧑🌾 🌱 🌾 🏞️ ➡️ ➡️ ⚧️⚧️⚧️⚧️ ❓❓😳 🙊
👩🦰 💋 🏃♂️ 👴 ✅
„one of the points of a 🚜 is surely to plough a lot of land“
Is that as dirty as I make it out to be?
🔥 🍊 🍷, 🫵 👁️ 🟰 ♾️ ⚡️💡 👏 🌹
Mila, welcome to the world of farming metaphors. Unfortunately I think we’ve ploughed through most of them already, but you never know when 🚜 comes up with a new one! (It’s a tractor, not a truck by the way. But I guess it can look like that to a layman/laywoman)
🚜, I’m glad you have your farming manual to ensure factual accuracy!
“Rolling in the hay bales laughing” (RIHBL)
🚜, check your manual again. You won’t have any fun rolling in the hay bales. The hay is packed tight in them and it’s going to feel pretty hard and uncomfortable. Don’t ask me how I know this! 😇🤣
Just go with the loose hay and RIHL!
@ 🍨, @🚜 ,
Ratify your claim about haystack! 👩🏻⚖️ As a kid, I worked on farms for two years…
A freshly harvested loose 🌾stack — the best 🛏️ on 🌍 !
❄️
i like your reply about the colorful emoji as mood booster / mind switcher. they do require a lot of effort for my brain, but even if i don’t understand, i like seeing everyone interacting this way. kind of like i enjoy listening to birds. i have no idea what the birds are saying, but i love looking at them, and am very glad they are there!
i may not use emoji much, because i am much more of a letters person (with very persistent brain-fog), but, thanks to 🚜 i feel i have had a minor rosetta stone moment in the form of 🕑 which i see now means “to” …and so does ✌️, presumably!
i am very, very proud of my robot head. lately with all my le trials, i feel more like… 🪠 haha
yep, the emoji action is working, i am laughing at myself. 🙂
🤖
🤖,
I’m glad that emojis are beginning to work for 🤖!
If you wish, try to apply more emojis in your chats, to see how they could affect your mind and mood…. They can be powerful distractions to LE 🧠.
Keep moving forward 🤺 with your LE! 🤺
Now, I feel more like a 🦜 … 😊
CSC,
Congratulations! That’s actually a big step. Proud of you💪🏻
thank you @Mila
…yes, it was a happy moment. definitely one i will remember next time i feel a bit hopeless over it all. i will know it can happen.
it’s been a lot of heartache to get even a little crumb of my mind back. but i’m happy with my little crumb today, for sure. 🙂
csc,
that’s the beginning, now it will creep in, occurring from time to time between periods of thinking of him, it will get more without noticing, and headspace for this LO will get less and less.
To CSC:
I am impressed, and also envious.
I don’t think I have achieved that feat in two years of drooling over LO.
yes, but @norma
keep in mind i drooled and wasted my life for a year, and then 5 weeks ago went total nc. i have blocked my lo and not interacted at all. i ghosted. is it the “right” thing? i doubt it. but, it was, at that point, a desperate situation for me.
while he lives near me, i have totally changed my routine to avoid him. i take different routes, avoid going anywhere near where he might be…it’s not limited contact or running into him randomly, or getting a random text. i shut all that down…because i could not handle it anymore…i was in so much despair, and not really functioning.
i tried limited contact. it did not work. to me (and i have been through this before, though this was a particularly horrible one) strict no contact – none— is the only way i get my life back.
csc, no capital letters.
A win for sure and thanks for sharing. I think I’m about the same.
Non-limerents would be shocked that another person can be on someone’s mind most of the time in some form or other, even if circuitous as you describe.
I used to be able to hyperfocus at work for long periods, but now I struggle.
Any advice how to switch it on csc ( or others )is very welcome.
@Imho
(Big capital I for you, Imho! 🙂
well, i am no expert, and deserve no gold stars, the only way i have ever, ever found to get my mind back, is *total* no contact. block, delete, unfollow, change route so i do not see lo, totally remove them, excise them, close off access and g-h-o-s-t, ghost. it is very painful, and very, very slimy since it’s not a “nice” thing to do to someone. but, my lo will survive being without me. the only time i would put myself anywhere remotely near him is if i felt truly detached. otherwise, it is not worth losing my mind. (and i do truly lose my mind.)
i’ve never tried disclosing. i wish i was that strong…that mature. i’m not. :/
i know most here do not believe in ghosting. but i do. i think it’s fine. controversial, yes, but…for me it works.
Well done @csc! A big journey and big achievement.
It’s SO good to have this safe space where people understand.
Csc, I added one capital letter
(trust that’s okay)
we are probably very different personalities, but I really value how you take control of the situation to go full NC and blocking & how open you have been on LwL about it.
You once said something that stayed with me : “not another spring, not another summer”
As in you need to be free not to waste these key joyous times in the year.
I’m taking notes.
If you want an emoji representation for yourself, can I suggest a rock hard diamond ? ✊🏻 💎
Or you can suggest your own as I don’t know what CsC stands for.
💃🏻
CsC,
Or did I see on here that you already have been allocated some strange robot head to represent you ? 🤖 ? Odd !
💃🏻
Haha @Imho
Thank you for the diamond but yes I have been allocated the robot head. I had to laugh because I do think proudly of my robot head allotment. 😂 I think it’s maybe been allocated due to my heavy reliance, during the depth of most recent LE, on horrible AI generated stoic and sigma female pop psychology, read in the voice of a English gentleman robot on YouTube.
That’s my guess!
What’s yours, Imho?
Ah 💃
@Imho you are the dancing lady! I was on the bounciest bus as I read your reply and didn’t see your lovely lady emoji til I settled! 😊
🤖
csc
How utterly fabulous. I am so happy to hear of that giant step! It’s an enormous development, one that you are quite rightly very proud of, as I am of you!
Jmmo x
thank you dear @jmmo
it was interesting…almost like a kind of amnesia but maybe closer to feeling like for that hour and a half i had been under anesthesia!
The bliss of just…being regulated and focused on what I was doing, without having to try and try!!! It’s been a year since I was alone in my mind like that. ❤️ Thank you for understanding, always.
The sheer amount of mental bandwidth it takes to do work and fight off intermittent LO thoughts, it is dawning on me how taxed my mind has been through my LE…
I really hope today was ok for you after the drama of yesterday (Monday). I hope teams and your office door were both dormant…🤞
csc
“The sheer amount of mental bandwidth it takes to do work and fight off intermittent LO thoughts, it is dawning on me how taxed my mind has been through my LE…”
Hey csc, you couldn’t be more correct about mental bandwith. I remember when LO would take a day off, I would miss her but there would be a real relief too. (In a weird way)
I know I’m late to this party but just wanted to say good job. You seem to have come a long way in a very short time. But I’ll probably always be jealous you got a cup of coffee out of the deal. Consider yourself blessed. In more ways than one..
Keep up the good work Friend. I’ll reach the end of my bs eventually.
Hi csc
They both were, yes. Thank fully. I had a better day yesterday, and I went to a gig last night and almost totally forgot about her. She flashed into my mind for a few seconds at the most. I was talking to and singing along with two lovely people – it was almost as though they sensed that I needed distracting. It was lovely.
Unfortunately my usual morning anxiety seems as high as ever at the moment. I’m angry with her as I feel Monday set me back a bit. But I will keep pushing on 👊
Have a wonderful day. I hope that your new found power continues to propel you forwards. I’m not far behind you, hopefully…. 🤞🏻❤️
Jmmo x
csc,
“The sheer amount of mental bandwidth it takes to do work and fight off intermittent LO thoughts, it is dawning on me how taxed my mind has been through my LE…”
You should really put this writing ability of yours to as many uses as you can find! (This one is useful, trust me)
I did that bandwith thing with my thoughts about xLO for nearly two years (incidentally, replacing other things that took far too much bandwith but were still ‘there’). The point is, it’s not just the available bandwith that we’re using. We go over: create a debt. That debt has to be repaid. I think at the spell of early recovery that we’re both in, we can use this point towards self compassion – to explain why we need more sleep, rest, downtime … ‘on’ less of the time than we’ve come to expect of ourselves. I also feel the longer the LE / bandwith debt was, the longer the recovery and the more patient we need to be with ourselves.
I have longer spells with no thoughts of her than your 1.5 hours now, and when she does pop in, the thoughts aren’t limerent anymore. As Mila says, longer and better spells will await soon for you too 🙂
JMMO,
“Unfortunately my usual morning anxiety seems as high as ever at the moment”
I know your post wasn’t aimed at me, but I’ll chime in. My anxiety, too, is *always* worst in the mornings.
If you like, then later when I can make time I’ll share a list of tips which I use that help a bit with this. These include for days where xLO will be present early in my day.
I want to be more consistent at really doing them each day – so telling you would mean we could gently encourage each other to do helpful things?
Gig sounds great btw! I have to force myself a bit to socialise outside of SO at the mo – but when I do, I’m glad I do. Good friends can be quite intuitive about where we are at and what we need.
@LaR
Thanks so much for your reply, especially given your current situation. Please don’t worry about chipping in, I’m always glad to hear from anyone.
The gig was great. I was a bit anxious as I went in my own (not SO’s kind of thing) but meeting those other people really made the night.
I would love to buddy up with you on this – especially if it gives me the opportunity to support you after all you do for me. So, yes please! However, please do not see this as a form of pressure: when you have time and you feel as though it will benefit you I will be delighted to hear from you!
Thanks again, and take care
Jmmo
thank you, Friend @MJ
i raise my cup of instant coffee to you (yep. i drink instant, horrible i know!)
well, I have come not techinially “far” in that I am literally celebrating the first hour and a half of non-lo thinking I have had in a solid year (since I met him)…haha – but to me, it felt pretty far, yep!
yes, the bandwidth observation seems to be relatable to many, and for myself, i can really see, in my (still pretty rare) moments of nc clarity, that omg, it’s like I’ve been running two brains…on the calories meant for one brain…for a looong time. the stress and strain of that alone…not to mention the roller-coaster of emotions…it’s amazing we all can even form full sentences.
I totally know what you mean about the relief – when my LO would text me, I’d let it sit for like a day or two, simply because it was “buying me time” before I had to strap in for the effing rollercoaster again….totally get that. now, i see it was my body trying to tell me something…(that my limerent brain would over-ride easily…)
today i am struggling. but i’ll continue to struggle until i find my way to a better place. i am committed. it is not fun.
i have been through 3 separate le’s spanning about 4 years. so, I have spent almost 4 years in this awful state. i have been unhappy, very, very unhappy, for at least 4 years. so unhappy.
i cannot, (could not?) face living the rest of my life *this* miserable, this depressed. that is why i’m taking such stark action. it was actually getting dangerous. i could feel that. i was in deep despair.
i know my le’s are a symptom of other things i have never looked head-on at, in myself, because they were so frightening. i know that now, they cannot be silenced or avoided without doing massive damage to myself…in the form of LE’s or other Very Bad Habits…
i am, i hope, regaining my equilibrium and then…i will have to deal with those very serious, scary things.
i am committed. the alternative is too awful to think of.
i think seeing my dad die this past summer changed me. i saw that one day, that will be me. i saw that i could be at my last moment and feel i had not been true to myself. that scared me most of all. i know everyone says it’s about loving other people. but at that moment, i realized that if i could not feel i had loved, and tried to do right by my own self, none of it would feel right…it would all be built on sand.
so, here i am. i will keep going. i feel like i can’t “unsee” what i have seen. but it’s got to be ok.
x and i hope you’re being good to yourself, MJ…
csc
@csc Thank you for sharing. I’ve just logged on quickly this morning and read your comment about “the sheer amount of mental bandwidth” to fight off the thoughts. This resonates with me and I can see it also resonated with LaR. It’s only early days and I need to stay positive keep telling myself that at least I’ve stopped the deliberate fantasies, and the involuntary thoughts are a habit which will take time to retrain.
I can see that it’s easy to panic and feel guilty about the intrusive thoughts, but then the more I think about them the more they happen, so actually the negative feelings don’t serve the purpose. I just need to be calmly confident that I have the tools to get out of this.
Monochrome
I can completely confirm that the amount of mental energy this takes is exhausting. It’s surely one if the hardest parts of this whole experience.
I hope that you are ok.
Jmmo
Thank you Jmmo for your help with the mental load! Appreciated. Yes, I’m ok thanks. It’s just weird to be having this kind of double life where only you lot know what’s going on in my head, and to everyone close to me this massive thing just doesn’t exist.
Hi there Monochrome,
“It’s just weird to be having this kind of double life where only you lot know what’s going on in my head, and to everyone close to me this massive thing just doesn’t exist.”
This rings so, so true. Don’t underestimate how massive a paradox that one thing is to deal with day to day. Give yourself due credit that you’re doing it! I am close on a year now where I have not had a conversation about limerence with anyone but this beautiful crew of ‘strangers on the internet’. The thing is that no harm can come of talking to us. For me it put a brake on acting my LE out on LO or SO. It was the harmless alternative. With talking to almost anyone in life outside LwL, it carries ďegrees of risk. Rant to us as much as you need to.
I haven’t really seen or at least registered your limerence story yet (it has been mad busy here) but I am sure we will get to know more of it.
Good wishes,
LaR
@monochrome
yes! Stopping the deliberate fantasies is huge! a huge mental lift, monochrome!
It sounds like you are a very mindful person, now able to observe your own thoughts…also takes loads of brain energy
and you can do this. step by step.
I’m not out of the woods yet…not at all. I know what you mean about resisting those fantasies and thoughts. They are so sneaky.
Are you eating well and healthy? nutrients for that brain of yours…while it is working overtime…
And getting sleep (naps if long sleep is not possible?)
…if you exercise…are you not overdoing it? Going at your own pace and having dialogue with your body?
not to add to your list of things to do…just in support of what you are trying to do. ❤️
csc
Thank you! All good suggestions. Yes, I’m taking care of myself thanks. I have enough sleep, I eat reasonably well and have a good exercise regime. As is often the case, my body is fine but my head needs work. Good to check because we need to be kind to ourselves while we’re putting the effort in.
Sneaky… that is exactly the right word to describe those intrusive thoughts!
May I ask how long into your LE you are? And at what point did you discover LwL? How has it made a difference?
@monochrome
i am a lifelong limerent, have had many. but there was a gap for many years….between age 30 and age 46. like you, i always thought (and told) that my total annihalation in love matters was a ‘crush’…people i was close to would ask wtf was wrong with me…and i came to believe i was lacking in some basic human survival skill in terms of emotion management. like, i was defective in some way.
i’ve had 3 recent limerences in the past 3 years (starting at age 46), like bam, bam, bam. this last one was extremely powerful (i call it the mother of all limerences) and it was a year long — almost to the day — then, i decided to go nc. i am probably in the minority – but i choose to consider that day (the nc day) the day it ended. everything after that day i choose to see as recovery / taking back the wheel of my life, no matter how pathetic or weak i feel.
i found out about LwL when I was in my second limerence (i think i was 47?)….so, the second “bam” in the bam, bam, bam series…haha. a friend asked me if i knew what limerence was, and i looked it up, and ended up here.
once that ended, i was absent from LwL for a time, but in the depths of the third “bam”, I reached back out here, and found support, thank goodness. every day i thank goodness for the incredible, intelligent, funny, caring, and understanding people here.
as for you…i am glad you are eating, sleeping, etc. it’s interesting how you say ‘body is fine, head needs work’.
i’m sure you know the brain is part of the body 🙂 just be gentle with all of your parts! for me a compassionate brain/body reconnection has been a huge help as i work through this le. (which i also hope will be my final le)….
as for my nc, i am 6 weeks into it tomorrow (i had about 4 weeks lc prior.) all tolled, it’s been since late February since I have actually physically seen lo. my god, just typing that, it feels like I have been through hell. every day has felt like 5 years.
…sheer mental bandwidth…indeed. it’s insane how hard i have worked, when i see the tiny progress i’ve made in two freakin months. but it’s vastly better than the hole i was down in, before. i’ll take it.
how long into your le are you, monochrome? it seems like you’re being very mindful about getting yourself out. you are not very dramatic when you talk about yours….but i have a feeling it has been very hard and disorienting. i can totally understand, if that’s how it has been. 🙂
x
csc
Friends
I need to rant. Hope you’ll forgive me.
I started out as anxious this morning. It’s now lunchtime and it’s still there, but I also feel bloody angry.
I’m angry that she just turned up after 3 weeks expecting to just to be able to use me again as her work plaything. I’m angry that she probably doesn’t care that I sent her packing. There again , those are the same reasons I’m in this mess.
I’m angry they she is an emotionally ignorant, compassion less, arrogant, self-centred, narc ….(insert your own word/s!) I’m angry that this feels as though it has set me back. I feel angry that at times I still want to cry. Like now.
I feel angry that I’m angry.
Most of all, I feel angry that I ever met her and allowed her to suck me in, as she has with others. This is a woman who couldn’t make a marriage last and has had at least two boyfriends tell her where to go. I feel angry that I can’t do the same – even though I don’t want because it will feed her and achieve nothing.
I am angry at myself. At limerence. At my brain. At whatever is missing in my life that makes this even possible.
Justme, quick reply from me. it’s really ok to feel anger, it’s a good sign.
Can you go for a walk or go to your car to yell and scream for a bit ?
I just did some air kick boxing to release some tension and motivate myself to do work and not daydream or be on here so much !
Best,
Imho
Thanks. Yes I went for a walk, and sat on a quiet bank, and sobbed. Harder than I’ve sobbed for a long time. It was a release and clearly needed to happen. I also had a lovely hug from a colleague who could tell there was something wrong. Your kick boxing idea is great – I’m going call at the gym in my way home to hit the punch bag.
Thank you for the encouragement x
Jmmo
Jmmo,
I hope the sob session was cathartic for you and a good release. Sometimes it just has to come out even if it’s wrong time and place. Glad you could find a quiet place to escape to in your work day.
And a hug goes such a long way to help too. Good hugs are a great medicine.
Appreciating your openness and sensitivity always.
I hope you managed to get to the gym or outside in the sun after-work.
Hug,
Just me,
Most of what you’re angry at now is outside of your control, except your own anger…. Perhaps, it’s a good time to review Stoicism’s fundamental principles — what’s inside and outside of one’s control?
Please feel free to rant as much as you feel like… If I were you, once the angry dissipates somewhat, I would focus on what was/is really going on inside myself that has brought me into the LE.
“Devils” exist anywhere and anytime; the question is why/how we let them get into our [mental] life? IMP, without finding tangible/intangible causes within ourselves, our LE would never truly go away…
The morning anxiety during LE is a “norm”, please expect it every single morning! The primary measuring stick on whether one’s LE is over, is to check your bodily sensation when you barely open your eyes. There is a huge difference between post LE and midst LE…. You will get there eventually.
By the way, when one’s LE is over, the thought of xLO popping into your head is less than a minute without any emotional charge, like a memory that you had a bad cold/covid…. Then even memory will fade as time goes on or you can even deal with xLO as an “acquaintance” emotionally. I still occasionally text with xLO#5 but hardly believed/felt that I ever had “LE” association with him — with zero hostile or fond emotions. The past stays in the past.
Please be patient with yourself and feel whatever you have to feel and stay with it, stare at it, until it fades away on its own.
🍀
(Sorry if I sound like preaching…)
Thanks Snow
You’re not preaching at all. Everything you’ve said is of value. This is far from my first LE, and I know that it will fade. But I cannot believe how this one has affected me.
Jmmo xx
Jmmo
Hang in there! This anger is part of withdrawing and detaching! Just imagine your brain is giving you a drip feed of emotions you can handle.
As you regain emotional regulation your brain is going to swing. Let it. Your brain will wobble around until it finds steadiness. And it will find steadiness if you don’t give it the stimulus/input.
You’re starving your brain of something it mistook for sustinence…it’s ok to be angry!!
Punch a pillow, go for a fast walk, breathe deeply and powerfully, yell into a very thick towel (my personal method)…post here…cry…whatever!
Just stay away from that woman.❤️
big karate kicks
your pal csc
Dear csc
Thank you. I love your line about big karate kicks! And I promise, I fully intend to stay well away from that woman.
I went out, found a quiet corner and sobbed. Harder than I’ve cried for a long long time. I felt better afterwards, but I still feel very down this evening. It will pass, hopefully tomorrow will be better.
Jmmo ❤️
Hi @jmmo
I find it really funny because I hadn’t yet read @Imho ‘s comment about the kickboxing!
I too, was thinking, hmmmm…it sounds like jmmo needs to kick something, as hard as possible. 🙂
You have done good for yourself, letting your tears flow, and letting your body release that energy. I know it can feel awful in so many ways. I’m glad you got a moment to just let it pass through.
with care,
csc
I think your anger is a good thing. What are the alternatives? Feeling depressed? Feeling helpless? Those are probably what I’d do. I think anger is a big improvement. At least you can take action when you’re angry, you’re not immobilized.
Thank you Norma ❤️
I hope you feel better Jmmo!
I get you with all the different directions your anger is taking. I do think it’s a good sign of taking control, as Norma says, especially anger at oneself and the whole stupid limerence situation. Anger at LO can turn against you if for example your LO suddenly behaves impeccably and sensitive etc.
But to be honest, I have absolute faith in your LO that this won’t happen anyway;)
Hi Mila
Ha ha! How right you are! The chances of my anger towards LO backfiring on me in that circumstance are zero!
I think you might all have a point about the anger being a sign of me taking some control back. I just feel deflated again this morning, but I have a therapy session today so we’ll see what we uncover.
Thanks as always for being a huge part of my Limerence family x
Justme
I want to ask about the concept of uncertainty. I believe the idea of limerence is predicated on the idea that the limerent person is uncertain regarding the LO and that’s what triggers the condition? If I’m understanding correctly?
And then there’s the idea if the potential LO puts a stop to the relationship before it starts, limerence won’t occur? Perhaps I am not understanding this correctly.
So in my own case, LO is openly gay, you can tell he’s gay from a mile away. There is no possibility that there would ever be a romance and I never thought there would be. Yet I got sucked into an intense obsession with him. He did not encourage this, I did it all to myself.
I remember the first time I was over at his house, he put his arm around me when we were sitting on the couch, and I felt so ACCEPTED. It was a wonderful feeling. I don’t know if that was an illusion on my part, or if this is part of the superficial-charm-schtick he uses. I have not felt that from him since, and that was two years ago.
Perhaps I am chasing that feeling of being accepted unconditionally, which I thought he exhibited, but didn’t.
@Norma
again, i can relate….oh yes. my “arm around shoulder” moment was….a cartwheel. i was doing cartwheels at my gym, and my lo came over and started doing them with me. We both cartwheeled gracefully and not-so-gracefully around, and laughed and had fun. I felt like I was about 5 years old. it was pure, free, FUN.
yes, the uncertainty, after that, of wondering when you are going to get a hit of that very, very powerful ingredient (acceptance, fun etc)…creates reliance. very similar to doing a powerful drug. you want your supply of That Thing. and your brain has somehow understood, very quickly, that LO is the source. Then, the intermittent interactions etc…they cement it…it becomes a habit. Like a drug user has their “habit”.
it is very, very powerful. to me, calling it the ‘glimmer’ does not do it justice. for me, it’s usually more like mainlining heroin directly into my temples than a “glimmer”.
i can understand how acceptance would be your drug of choice, Norma. It’s powerful. But, I also feel just from learning about you here, that lo is not the only person who would love and accept you…you are a very interesting, thoughtful, and worthy individual. lo or no lo.
x
csc
Norma,
Like CSC says, the uncertainty is sometimes used on here to talk about the ‘will it or won’t it go anywhere?’ question, but sometimes about rewards. Think of it like feeding a slot machine. The ‘hit’ is in whether it pays out or not, ‘this time’. If it never paid out or always paid out, the uncertainty would be gone and so would the addictive ‘what if it happens THIS time?’ that keeps the gambler going. It’s the idea of intermittent rewards that arrive sometimes but not others.
The ‘reward’ from an LO will vary between all of us. It is rarely/ever a signal of reciprocated love, but something much less that stands, in our lim-brain, for much more (csc has kind of covered it). It’s what gives us the dopamine and keeps us trying.
I have to actively avoid setting myself up in any situation now where xLO could ‘feed’ me a reward … for me that coule be anything that she does or says that conveys my value to her, really.
Just me
I never could be angry at her. And not being able to be angry at her made me more angry in the aftermath. Did she do anything wrong? No. But damn her for being so damn charming! How dare she be nice to me! How dare she thank me for what I did for her! How dare she in general. Oh wait … that’s limerence. Not her fault.
This was the first album ever I bought on CD back when it came out. (I am aging myself.) This song was always was always a favorite of mine off the album, but it never really resonated until limerence. Maybe this will help.
She Drives Me Crazy — Fine Young Cannibals
https://youtu.be/Hi_N4npokZs?si=VUo3w_fTEllzcf4v
Hi Adam
I get that, absolutely. In my case, did she cause my limerence? No. Is it her fault that I fell for her? Probably not.
But is it her fault that she has behaved how she has? Emphatically, yes. She has devastated me, and it reaches far beyond my limerence. She has taken me and used never her own ends, despite my disclosing to her. I know the anger will fade, but it feels a long way off.
Thanks for the video. I watched it and coyld totally relate.
Thanks mate
Jmmo
Norma,
Have you been looking at the archives? https://livingwithlimerence.com/blog-archive/
There’s a lot of good information buried back there.
If you see a blog or comment you like, copy the blog or comment link and post it in the coffeehouse. Start a new thread.
I have read a fair amount of the archives, but there’s a lot there.
I seem to get overwhelmed easily with too much information. I don’t have the capacity to sit and read about a weighty topic for long periods of time.
I would like to start a new thread if I can muster the strength and focus to do so.
Thank you for your comments.
Coffeehouse, for anyone who’s willing to answer really …
While commenting to another poster, I thought of an interesting limerence research question that’s not a topic we’ve touched on that much here, but it has piqued my interest.
Thinking about your current or most recent LE, how many ‘real life’ people (ie not on LwL) did you tell about your feelings for your LO? And out of them, how many did you try to explain the concept of limerence to?
My stats are 3 and 0.
For my previous two LEs I think I told just one person each time (second part is NA as I didn’t know what limerence was then).
I just wondered if most people here also have such small numbers of confidantes on this issue?!
0 and 0.
If you don’t count LqL and one other Internet forum that doesn’t exist any more.
LwL, of course.
I forgot mutual disclosure woth LO1, didn’t know about limerence then
I have told several people. I am not self-conscious about it. I seem to remember reading that some people are ashamed of their feelings? I personally am not. My friends have been supportive. Although one friend doesn’t get it. She keeps saying, “Just forget about him.” And I try to explain to her why that isn’t possible, and she doesn’t understand. But she’s still very kindly. Nobody has been unkind about it.
I don’t mind admitting it. I cheerfully admit that I don’t know how or why it happened, but I am just rolling with it, the best I can. LO was the first person I told, and he has handled it reasonably well, also. However, I did NOT ever use the word “limerence” with him, as I did with my various girlfriends. I just told LO I had a crush on him, and left it at that. He’s a pretty good sport. I always ask permission before I touch him. He just shaved off a goatee which I hated, so I asked if I could touch his cheek, which he is fine with.
2 = a long-term xlimerent-friend + 👽 (both long distance)
They both learned what Limerence is (from me and Wiki). The former acknowledged that he’s a life-time limerent and did not blink at all about my LE; the latter just listened without any comments as if I was talking about another LO. They both knew about this community’s existence (w/o “knowing” its name at the time), which has been my mental/spiritual reality, but a physical “ghost” land, except Dr L and Teika.
I think I might be freaked/pass out if I ever have a chance to meet you in person 😵💫 (except Dr L) — imagination rarely matches/correspondences with reality, as I experienced repeatedly in the past…
Singin’ out of the Box 🗃️❓
This is such a great question
3
– My mom
– My best friend (who happens to be a trauma therapist but isn’t my therapist)
– My actual therapist
I explained it to my Mom. She now understands. The therapists already knew about limerence.
❤️
I told at least six people. That I can think of. I didn’t know what limerence was then. I didn’t find this site until the tail end of my LE, after going NC. Looking back, I think I was just going to different people to get a different answer. I didn’t like what they were telling me. (They could see how little was there between us.)
@Marcia.
“I told at least six people.”
You need to be more careful. With six confessions, you could find yourself a breaking news story someday. “Mysterious New Species of Woman Discovered in the Americas. Says She Can’t Get Over Workplace Crush.” 🙂
I told my younger sister. She said: “I hear that can be really painful.” And that was pretty much the end of the conversation.
I told my older sister, and we mostly talked about her two most painful experiences of limerence. She has a good sense of humour about her experiences, and high emotional intelligence in general. However, I don’t think she’s completely over her most recent LO/LE. There is still … pain. 😢
I told a gay male friend, and he just found the whole concept very amusing and said: “You sure like to carry torches for people.”
So maybe I’ll say I told three people in the real world. 🙂
Sammy,
“You need to be more careful. With six confessions, you could find yourself a breaking news story someday. “Mysterious New Species of Woman Discovered in the Americas. Says She Can’t Get Over Workplace Crush.” 🙂”
Nah. I doubt any of those people even remember me telling them. Most people just aren’t paying that much attention to us. It’s the truth.
“I told my younger sister. She said: “I hear that can be really painful.” And that was pretty much the end of the conversation.”
Wow. So someone in your family IS capable of brevity! 🙂
@Marcia.
“Wow. So someone in your family IS capable of brevity! 🙂”
Yep. 🤣
Counting the EAP counselor, I told 4 people and the counselor was the only one I tried to explain limerence to.
The other three people got tired of me talking about LO #4.
They’re not my therapist, they’re my friends.
“Counting the EAP counselor, I told 4 people and the counselor ”
Ha! My therapist would make 7. Five were friends. One was a family member, who was so harsh in the way he delivered his assessment of what I told him that I stopped talking about anything personal with him.
One friend was kind of dismissive. Kind of like: Is there more to this story? No, there isn’t!
👩🦰 🏃♂️,
I told my cptsd therapist just a little about my strange feelings for ET, but I don’t think she knew anything about LE. She only said it’s inappropriate and futile, and LO would be very cautious or even scared dealing with me as a friend, due to workplace codes.
Later, I fired her due to her uncontrollable/outrageous needs/desire to control me and tried to reenact some behavior of my harsh Dad or Mom. I almost wrote the worst review of her work on Google. But I controlled myself, appreciating that she was willing to take my phone call around clock during the last few days before Dad passed away.
“Therapists are just people”, like any of us. Some of them have their aged, unresolved psychological issues, then they intentionally or inadvertently transfer them to their clients.
The following more feminine and much softer therapist saw something “emotionally off” in me and pried around constantly. I seriously believed that my “glorious”/non-requited LE affection would be totally dirtied/ruined by her worldly” common senses. So I sealed my lips no matter what kind of relevant questions she threw at me. At beginning, her soft, motherly demeanor made me feel at ease, later it became weakness, as if all her energy had been sucked away by god knows what.
She’s very incompetent for cultural and generational cptsd stuff, and I had to inform her a lot about her professional field! I walked away and swore never to deal with another licensed therapist!
8 months later, I stumped into LwL, rolled over in its mushy land, got black stones as well as colorful vegetables thrown at me, served in L’Amoor, and become what I am now 🏵️ 🌱 🍅 ❗️ Who needs other professionals? Some of us can declare a LE experts now, such as 👩🦰 🏃 , 🆎 🅱️ 🥔 , 😎🍫….
“Thinking about your current or most recent LE, how many ‘real life’ people (ie not on LwL) did you tell about your feelings for your LO?”
6 people
Stepmom
Sister
LO2 and our mutual friend
SO
LO3
“And out of them, how many did you try to explain the concept of limerence to?”
3 people
SO
LO2 and our mutual friend
@LaR,
Zero
I don’t want to burden others or for that information to bite me back at some time in the future.
If I were single it would be a very different number.
Good question!
With LO1 I told about 5 people, I think. All friends (including TO). Explained L to 0, didn’t know the term yet and was embarrassed about my obsessiveness.
With LO2, 1 (TO) and 0. I did mention him and our ongoing contact to a few friends (I couldn’t help dropping him into the conversation, so exciting), but didn’t go into my feelings.
Dear LaR,
Its 0 and 0 for me too.
The weight of not telling anyone is heavy but I can’t really think of who I would tell for them to understand. I am thinking about having a beer with my sister some day and explaining the nitty gritty. Its actually a very dramatic story (in my mind :D!!). I think she’ll love the drama. Obviously, now that the “danger” is over.
Speaking of which, I met him recently (virtual/video) and felt a stirring – nothing too serious – but still, I am going to need to be careful at this f2f that’s coming in a few weeks.
Bx
Good question!
1 and a half I guess?
1 was a counsellor whom I had a few sessions with specifically to talk about the crush and try to figure out how I could get rid of it. Neither I nor the counsellor had heard about limerence at the time.
The half was that I mentioned to my husband that I had declined the opportunity to work more closely with LO as a precaution because I was attracted to him. I didn’t disclose the full extent of the attraction. It was just over a year ago, long before I read the Observer article and discovered limerence.
Bewitched 🐝🧙♀️,
I 👂you! I am getting a few circle-back “so totally over this, let’s go for ☕️” type overtures now – only a very recent development. I haven’t accepted any of them as yet. But I will run out of excuses soon and might accept one, as I do need/ want to keep a decent work relationship at least, if she’s open to it. Do tell me if you think that is a horrific idea (bear in mind we are far from NC anyway), but my head says I could handle it now.
Hi LaR,
As someone who wobbled after meeting LO online recently and also accepted a SM request, I am perhaps not the best to advise. Or maybe I am by way of being a cautionary tale.
My take on this for my own situation is that there is no going back to how things were because I can’t un-know the trials and grief that I’ve been through. In that sense, I feel that there is less danger, because I am just too alive to the danger and am never going back there again. Also, he is just too incompatible with me, too chaotic, I’d end up killing him if in proximity to him (real, virtual, or even imaginary). Its like, he gets to me on a chemical basis but my head is (mostly) immune to him! But it might be different for other people who have a different dynamic with their LO. You seem to me like you are totally “over it” and meeting for coffee would be a strategic maintenance task, which I fully understand – tere is a need for your own peace of mind to make things right. And a coffee might be a way of doing that? Only you know what your motivations are. But I sense you are not indulging in ‘limerent bargaining’ here when considering a meet-up, it seems to be for entirely other motivations?
Bewitched,
I don’t think it is limerent bargaining either, but I didn’t
want to ask that as a question in a leading way; just wanted to see what you’d think. Thanks for the helpful response.
When you phrase it as ‘strategic maintenance’, yeah that rings true and is indeed a big part of it.
But there’s another bit too. She’s a very valued long term friend. I would have said that before we ever glimmered. And truly, she hasn’t done anything to merit me withdrawing my part in that friendship. My being limerent for her is not her fault. She never asked for it. So that’s a big factor too. By me going as far to LC as possible, for one it raises more awkward questions about why than are necessary (in her and in others). And for two, I can’t rest easy with knowing I am close to ghosting someone who doesn’t deserve a ghosting. I feel happier in myself for now with the ‘middling’ way I’ve been playing it very recently.
Thanks for staying with me and listening through this jungle I’m navigating.
LAR, Bewitched,
so there’s f2f or 121 coming up? (I just wanted an excuse to use these abbreviations I learned here, apart from PDA etc)
Since you cannot avoid it, I’d go into it with a curious mind- just roll with it and observe yourself and LO without judging, but do observe with an alert mind, so that you can look at it later.
You could have some outlines concerning boundaries, like „I won’t get engaged in talking about this or that“ or „I won’t propose another meeting“ or „I want to come over friendly but don’t answer personal questions“, but mainly I would observe how you feel, if LO is really that interesting and engaging etc.
I sometimes noticed that I wasn’t actually that happy with them. With the first one I was constantly arguing because of political and other views, with the second one I was constantly on alert and getting exhausted because he fires questions and topics in a very fast tempo, with the third one I was sometimes bored or annoyed. There were always these moments of neutral view, when I thought „am I really making that much drama about this guy? Why again?“ not putting them down, but simply seeing them as just another human being.
Dear Mila,
I like your advice to observe with an open mind.
One issue that I have when we are f2f (rarely 1-2-2, though :)) is that he stares a lot and I actually feel very self conscious. Its really difficult to behave normally when you feel so self conscious. But maybe that will all have gone away on the next occasion – its a long time since we were f2f and things might have changed a bit. Work contact has gone down slightly but is about to ramp up again now as we have a project that is nearing a critical point. So he’s on my mind more, even on a purely banal work level. And I get too emotional about everything (limerence and life in general), so that’s something I need to work on too.
Bx
@ 🐝 🧙♀️, @ 🚜 🌽, @ 🔥 🍊 🍷,
Please allow me to add one seemingly irrelevant thought here —
Have you thought whether or how Stoic approach could be applied to your f2f meeting or coffee? What would be “the worst” scenarios (the worst could be several, not just one situation) during such a meeting?? Can you install those possible “worst” in your mind now?
Scenario including:
1. Other sides’ words, body languages, and behaviors, which are TOTALLY (treating it as totally) unpredictable and out of our control, although you might have some guesses based on the past. But, people DO change, on yearly, monthly, and even daily basis (just looking at me 🙃). Please do NOT make any assumptions what and how LO would say or do!
2. Your side: you can NOT predict how you’re going to feel or think, or even say on the spot. As human being (not a robot), our six senses are helplessly under influenced of /the control of circumstances, they will act/react beyond our estimation. So what would be “the worst” of how and what you may feel and think? Any what would be your strategies in your reactions if “the worst” indeed takes place?
“the worst” here — could be what Mila says : they become very charming, interested, engaged in you again!… or your presence and chats trigger them to consciously or unconsciously produce dopamine that your largely recovered mind still (sub)consciously desire to receive. Whose mind does not⁉️
3. I agree with Mila that keenly observe your mind and feelings when you interact with LO; despite it’s very hard to activate observing and doing mind at the same time, particularly when dealing with LO. Your LE neurons might be reactivated again. However, I would not pre-program too much what I would say or not say beforehand, if you want to be your total self in front of LO. I would take extra long time to respond/talk, slowing down chatting speed even feeling a big awkward, like those Victorian people do.
4. I would not try to observe and guess LO’s mind when you are on the spot, it’s FUTILE and could make yourself nervous/self-conscious. Stoic or not, we all know that we do NOT and can NOT know what’s truly going on in another person’s head at any given moment, although their verbal or body language could shred some lights. But that could change sooner or later — scientifically, 60k-70k emotions and thoughts pass through us EVERY single day! I would keep the Buddhistic concept of impermanence in mind.
Moreover, It’s very tiring and nerve-racking to guess especially LO’s mind, because your residual LE lens could still altar your “judgment”/assessment on the spot. (I’m so nervous nowadays to use the “devilish” word, “judge” 🙄 ) The KEY is alway to be our SELF, in interacting with whomever we want to or are obligated to, LO should be no exception, in theory (but not in biology 🙄 )!
It’s really difficult to behave normally when you feel so self conscious.“
🐝 🧙♀️: please allow me to ask you a question: why do you feel self-conscious (while you have so many good advice for almost everyone here in LwL)? Do you feel it all the time with everyone, or just with LO and LO’s stare? What possible causes do you think that still make you feel self-conscious? Is it part of your LE, or of a norm in your life? I felt very self-conscious most of my life due to bad cptsd, life adversities, and this latest LE, but no more. I no longer seek any external validation (not reject them either if they are given) because now I am able to give myself all the validation I ever needed.
🚜 : I’m a bit concerned in your situation, you might be drawn back a bit more in this ☕️ ☕️, although your T mind sounds strong. Just a hunch/intuition. Again, think about it from Stoic perspective for your own sake?
Hi LaR!
Great question!
I told SO I had a crush, and I think I spoke about her a little bit too much to about everyone but otherwise no one.
And I think its something I start to realize that I don’t/can’t talk much to my friends on personal topics. When it’s sad, I can’t talk about it at all, as I mostly need their happiness to pick me up and I can’t have them sad for me. I’ve considered talking about the LE with long time friends that I don’t see often, but never really got around to it. The few friends I have where I live now are not really close enough ( I think) to talk about complicated stuff.
So it’s really just SO, and I think the lack of emotional closeness is probably somewhere near the roots of my LE.
@LaR, how are you doing with LO and your common activity?
WRT: women over 50.
Marcia,
Hypothetically, let’s say we’re two total strangers in a bar having a drink. At some point, I look you in the eyes and say,
“Nations go to war over women like you.”
Any woman over 50 is free to weigh in.
LE,
“‘Nations go to war over women like you.'”
I say, “Thank you, Sheena Easton” and appreciate the compliment but am aware there is a big age difference between us and you are, like your brethren, hitting on younger women. You asked. 😀
So much for the total stranger caveat. Read the ground rules.
Points for picking up on Sheena Easton.
I dont care if you’re a stranger. I read the ground rules. I love a cold approach.
Depending on how many drinks I’ve already had, I may make reference to my sugar walls. (Sorry. Couldn’t help myself. 🙂 )
Chapeau Marcia!
Grin and say, “That’s just the smoke from another fire.”
And, the game begins.
An Easterner —
😏 “Did you take right herb elixir today⁉️ Mister, flattery has a border‼️” 🙄
🤫 “🆎lunatic! A nation goes to war for a face? then sun rises from the West!”… “Ayah, Westerners… all romance lunatics❗️ “🤭
😈 “Okay, Mister! Hmm… would you go to ☝️ cornfield to catch some alive butterflies 🦋🦋 and dragonflies 🐉🪽🐉🪽for me? I’m just crazy for them 😍❗️ then bring them here tomorrow at the sunset? I’ll be waiting here, promise 🙅🏻♀️‼️ “🥰
An Easterner —
“‘Nations go to war over women like you.’”
😏 “Did you take right herbal elixir today, Mister❓ “Compliment” has a border‼️” 😊
🤫 “🆎lunatic! Nations go to war for a face ❓🙄 then sun rises from the West!”… 😉 “Ayah, Westerners… all romance lunatics❗️ “🤭
😈 “Okay, Mister! Hmm… would you go to ☝️ cornfield to catch some alive butterflies 🦋🦋 and dragonflies 🐉🪽🐉🪽for me? I’m just crazy about them 😍❗️ then bring them here tomorrow at the Sunset? I’ll be waiting here, promise 🙅🏻♀️‼️ “🥰
….
👋 “Goodbye, Mister! See you tomorrow at the Sunset, have a superb luck!” 😘
“Who wants to live forever?” without a face, or without just an imagination of a face —
https://youtu.be/IbYG30ucL7Q?feature=shared
A sincere response:
“You have no idea what you’re getting into”
Only if the stranger was attractive. I would have a different response if he wasn’t (no words – just a facial expression)
By the way, this is another war analogy, LE. I think I need to point that out, right @Marcia!?
@ 🐝 🧙♀️
It’s a reference to “the Trojan War for Helen’s face”.
It’s even mythologically impossible in the East, where women were literately traded , or legitimately taken as 2nd, 3rd, 4th… wife, or for the “best” as a concubine to an Emperor’s “Back Palace”.
Thus, any Easterner’s reaction to 👩🦰 🏃’s line — “Did the Sun rise from the West today? ” or “Did you eat wrong elixir today?” (over there, they eat all sorts of herbal “elixirs” for longevity or beauty…. 🙄)
Over there, exaggerated, impossible flattery would be thought lunatic and mocked mercilessly… 😊
Bewitched,
“By the way, this is another war analogy, LE. I think I need to point that out, right @Marcia!?”
Ha! I didn’t catch that. It’s either that and/or a reference to LO #2. 🙂
I agree with you. The compliment means a million times more if I find the guy attractive. But how often does that happen? A compliment and a hot guy? Girl, you’re doing really well that day! 🙂
The numbers are in from yesterday’s poll!
On some back of the envelope calculations based on what people answered, on average we’re unloading about our feelings about LO on around 2.3 people. If we remove paid therapists, SOs and LOs and just look at disclosures to friends and family, it falls to 1.5. Of those we tell, only 1 in 5 attempts include attempted explanation of what limerence is.
I agree with @imho – if the limerent is single, they would tell more people. It is the fear of judgement or misunderstanding, when we’re with an SO, that puts the brake on telling friends. If they are not likely to get what limerence is, then they’re not likely to be able to tease apart what we’re telling them from “I want to have a PA” (that’s what they’d hear – or what we fear they’d hear)
If I didn’t have an SO I would have never even attempted to tell/explain anything about limerence to anyone. I still have co-workers that tease me about “my crush”. Definitely do not need to add gasoline to the fire. If my wife of 23 years (at that time) heard “affair” when I tried to explain to her limerence, no telling what others would think and say. Thank Dr L for this place and this community.
Yeah, in my single days I would confide in my friends. Nowadays, I keep that close to my chest!
LaR,
“if the limerent is single, they would tell more people. It is the fear of judgement or misunderstanding, ”
If you’re single and your LO is married, you have to be selective in who you tell. And you may have to leave out some details. There were people I told everything to and people I edited the story for.
Best response so far: SL
Woohoo! 🙂
I have zero room dea what you’re referring to but as an (almost!) 50 yo
I’d probably do a slow blink and say, “No, nations go to war *with* women like me.”
Brava! 👏
@bewitched
hahaha got so excited about that one i lost control of my keyboard haha
it’s a beautiful May day!
“Strut” – Sheena Easton (1984)
https://youtu.be/uSp0kO-NBWw?feature=shared
1984 was the zenith of my time with LO #2.
Around the time of my last LE, I had a crush on a coworker. Not a hint of Glimmer. I think she was 10 – 15 years or so younger.
She was divorced, attractive, smart, self’sufficient, and had a great sense of humor. Her kids were about the same age as mine. We had similar views on a lot of things. Had I been available, age aside, she would have been a suitable candidate.
We worked on several projects together. One day we were having coffee. I asked her if I could ask her a personal question. She said that I could but she might not answer it.
I asked why there wasn’t some guy all over her? She hesitated a minute and said that she met 2 kinds of men. The first started talking marriage on the second date or were looking for someone to support them. She said that she wasn’t interested in either group.
I came back with the line from the song. She was old enough to remember it. She smiled and said that we both knew it wasn’t true but it was really nice to hear.
@👩🦰 🏃 ,
For centuries, scholars still research and argue whether Trojan war actually took place… How on earth, you Westerners could believe in such mythological stories⁉️ Could a woman’s face really bring a war of nations? 🧐 By nature, could a female face really bring a war of nations❓ What about a male’s face❓(causing only 🐱⚔️🐱 ❓)
Without knowing Sheena Easton and her lines, a personal response would be, 😉 “which character do you like most in Homer?”
Based on your mythology, the line is the highest compliment, astronomically cultured than mumbling, drooling, kneeling to beg, bashing the bishop, or tumbling on one’s own wedding ceremony….just in front of a face… 🧐
My question to you 👩🦰 🏃 and all:
What would be a woman’s striking line, when she stands in front of an Adonis? 😍
Haha ❄️, I’m not a man but I was just trading pick-up lines with one. (Who said dating apps can’t be fun?) I found this one, and he said “Well, if that one works then I’ll be damned!”. Of course I had to use it on him irl too. Worked like a charm… Like taking candy from a baby.
So I don’t really think the playing field is level when we talk about men vs women using pick-up lines. The line, you ask? Well, honestly it could have been anything, but it was: “Well, here I am. Now what are your other two wishes?” 😜
@ 🍧 👏 😘 ,
🆎 🅱️ — ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT‼️ Who originated it❓
Have you tried it with another IRL guy or just MR?
“Well, here I am. Now what are your other two wishes❓❓”
“Have you ever tried trifles?”
🦜,
Internet wisdom. A quick and lazy google.
I haven’t tried it on anyone else. But I might just try, if need be. It just requires a bit of Karen-like (Will&Grace) pizzazz…
🚜,
RIHL! It’s a shame no one else will get the reference.
Public Transportation
Elaine Sexton
She is perfectly ordinary, a cashmere scarf
snugly wrapped around her neck. She is
a middle age that is crisp, appealing in New York.
She is a brain surgeon or a designer of blowdryers.
I know this because I am in her skin this morning
riding the bus, happy to be not young, happy to be
thrilled that it is cold and I have a warm hat on.
Everyone is someone other than you think
under her skin. The driver does not have
a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in his metal
lunchbox. He has caviar left over from New Year’s
and a love note from his mistress, whom he just left
on the corner of Sixth Avenue and 14th Street.
When she steps off his bus to take over the wheel
of the crosstown No. 8, she knows she is anything
but ordinary. She climbs under the safety bar
and straps the belt on over her seat. She lets
the old lady who is rich but looks poor take her time
getting on. She lets the mugger who looks like
a parish priest help her. She waits as we sit, quiet
in our private, gorgeous lives.
*******
An ordinary, glorious day in Big 🍎!
I was thinking about one of Dr. Tom’s articles where he talked about how we have no control over how LO is going to respond to something. We may anticipate a certain reaction, and then it will be completely different.
This is so true. I just saw LO for the first time in more than three weeks and I was surprised by his nonchalance, almost indifference. I didn’t expect him to jump up and down, but I was still surprised. The first thing I noticed was that he had shaved off the goatee he grew last summer (which I HATED). He told me he shaved it off during his trip, and the three people with him did not even notice. One of them is his business partner that he sees every day.
Since I gaze at him worshipfully, of course I would notice right away.
I find that I long for LO’s approval, for some reason. I can’t, however, figure out why I want that so much. We disagree on many things, and I have been horrified at his opinions on certain political topics. If I find his opinions to be a bit questionable, maybe it’s a good thing that he doesn’t give me wholehearted approval?
@Norma, some random thoughts :
He stirs you up. Love and hate neural pathways in the brain are quite similar as they both evoke emotions.
So many movies start out with distain between the lead actors that inevitably turn to passion/ romance. Pillowtalk is good old movie with this theme. (I think Rock Hudson was gay IRL actually, as an aside.
I would fall for him, regardless!)
Anyway, if your LO was nice and agreeable then maybe you wouldn’t worship him so. You would find him, well, just nice. A friend.
You spoke of uncertainty being a driver and you have certainty that he is gay. But you are not gay and so you are probably still finding him attractive on a raw level.
Stroking his face and hair is going to reinforce the close personal human connection you are feeling, as it’s pure pair bonding activities.
Also maybe knowing he is gay somehow makes it safe to have the fantasy, knowing he won’t, you know, seduce you.
To Imho:
Thank you for your comments. LO did tell me that women have always found him appealing. I have no trouble believing this. I think he’s devastatingly attractive. He reminds me of the CNN newscaster, Anderson Cooper, if anyone knows who that is. He has similar coloring, very sophisticated, but taller. I practically drool when I see him.
I am not sure where I stand about him being “safe” because he is gay. I think I would rather he be straight, and let the chips fall where they fall.
He started out being nice and agreeable, but as I got to know him, he started to let his guard down, and I saw the irritable, angry person underneath. I have seen enough of his temper to know that I need to tread carefully.
His mood has improved considerably now that he is nearly ready to list his house for sale. Tomorrow he will be leaving on a trip to the other side of the country to look at houses. He is in very good humor concerning this, and I can’t help but notice that it doesn’t look like he will miss me.
His huge, expensive house has become too much of a money pit for him, and he wants to retire and slow down. So I do understand, but obviously the upcoming separation is not going to affect him much, and I have to accept that.
It’s just as well. I might not be able to extricate myself from the ball of limerence I find myself tangled in otherwise.
@Norma,
I am not familiar with the CNN newsman. I googled him!
Your LO obviously has had quite some admirers. Knowing that helps I think. I remind myself of this fact too.
Yes, maybe it is just as well he moves away for your own sanity if the LE is not resolving itself and seemingly dominating your thoughts too much.
It won’t be easy, but you will survive , no I’m sure thrive in good time. You deserve a more suitable companion.
My LO has just left the organisation we work at and I am bereft. I knew it was coming but not so suddenly. It is for the best!
To Imho:
So with LO being gone, does this mean there will be no further contact? Maybe better if the decision is taken out of our hands. I certainly don’t have the willpower to cut off my Anderson Cooper lookalike.
Norma,
The main medium of contact is gone. We have other means of contact, the usual ones, but it will not be the same and you have to be true friends to sustain contact beyond the initial reason of what drew you together in the first place, so work in my situation and being neighbours I guess for you.
It’s early days for me to comment further.
Hi Imho,
I’m sorry that you feel sad.
It’s probably no consolation when I tell you that the prolonged song and dance of uncertainty my XLO danced before he finally left would have been worse than your LO leaving earlier than you thought.
Is there any kind of farewell-event?
It is sad, but it is also a change, and change might be good in limerence- world.
Maybe you’ll manage to have a valued friend in another country – someone you don’t see much and don’t think about much, but when you do, you enjoy it? Like my LO2,with whom I spoke for more than an hour on the phone after not having spoken to him for quite a long time.
I cherish people like that, men or women. They click with me and it’s lovely to see them, and day-to-day life has no chance to corrupt this feeling…
Might that be an option for you two, you think?
Thanks Mila,
It was terribly quick and not a nice situation. Very strained. I had a panic attack when I realised he had gone. We have messaged since a bit but I know it will not be the same.
Yes, the scenario you describe with LO2 would be ideal. I will aim for this.
In the meantime, I’m rather cyber stalking when he is online. It’s a comfort thing to check he is ok somehow. I need to disrupt that habit. It will calm down in time and I will replace it with another weird habit instead no doubt.
Thanks for always being in tune with my story developments. I can’t hide from Mila !!
X
Oh and to answer your question – no farewell event. If he comes to my country there may be a small group from the team that work here, but I think it’s now unlikely.
@imho
I’m really sorry you have had to say goodbye to LO. I know they’re not exactly good for us, but, that doesn’t mean our pain and sadness isn’t valid.
We are all here for you. You are not alone. These heartaches hurt, I know.
I understand you may still be in touch. I hope the limerence is weakened instead of further inflamed by distance and intermittence — and I hope you end up with a friend, and/or just a better feeling about things … No matter what shape they take!
❤️ csc
„I can’t hide from Mila !!“
Uh, hope you don’t feel stalked. I read your posts (if I find them🙈) carefully since I got to know that you tend to be very understatement-y.
It sounds a bit like there was a bit of conflict involved in his leaving work?
„We have messaged since a bit but I know it will not be the same.“
It won’t be the same, but maybe it won’t be worse but better? Now is the chance to let limerence creep away.
Old habits are hard to let go, but this one is one you actually wanted to let go for a longish time, isn’t it?
I don’t think he‘ll forget you so easily. Apart from his uncertain visit, you can always get in touch and he‘ll know you and be happy to be in touch or see you, I’m sure.
Sorry to be obvious and utter platitude, but just now an acquaintance of mine died of cancer. I didn’t know him well, but he we had an instant connection when we met (even a glimmer on both sides, I suspect), and he was a very gifted person, a loss for the world, really.
People can suddenly vanish in a much more devastating way.
limerence here or there, we should be glad if we and LOs and family are healthy and can get on with life and meet or not meet as we wish…
I know it’s no help for you sorry… but when things like that happen, it jolts a bit of perspective into sight for me.
It won’t ease your panic, sorry! What I wanted to say is that he‘s not out of the world, he‘s still there! No need to panic. He can still be a small but positive part in your life without any disruptive feelings.
Hi Imho,
I just want to send 🫂 and solidarity really. The rest (T brain side of how to resolve your LE) can honestly wait – I understand what a massive shock and jolt it would be that he left unexpectedly early.
Try and treat yourself as kindly as you can in the days to come – whatever that looks like for you 🤗
Imho, I’m sorry to hear you were thrown for a loop!
If we take the pov of eliminating uncertainty… Can we look at it like, now you can decide what your amount and quality of contact will be like? Or if you decide it’s best to go NC, then you can do that without worrying about intermittent contact at unexpected times. I’m sorry to be so pragmatic about this..! I’m trying to find the silver lining. I really feel for you. 🫂
Hi Imho,
As someone who is regularly shocked by what their LO does, I can imagine how you feel about this very abrupt change. It is such a huge change. Even if your future self will be able to see it as all being for the best, the shock itself must be incredible right now. My own version of a very large shock was LO basically losing the plot (as far as I could see) when interacting with me f2f over a series of a few days. He kissed me the previous time we met (I think it was by accident). Then, next thing I know, he told a few of us that his wife was pregnant (!). I reeled from the effect of that particular shock for quite a few months.
I do not think that you should minimise the enormous effect that this shock has had on you. But you’ll survive it and you’ll get stronger, in time.
Sending a big hug.
Bxxxxx
Mila, CsC,LaR, Bewitched, Trifles & friends on LwL.
I’m suddenly feeling very emotional reading all your comments.
I am the queen of understatement (very perceptive Mila), as I drop my update replying to someone elses comment.
Don’t know why I often do that. Probably in an attempt to downplay the situation/feelings🤷🏻♀️
Anyway, right now I’m feeling overwhelmed and emotional.
I can’t express how much it means to me all the support and sharing you give from your own experiences. As you know, I don’t have anyone to speak to IRL about this, so you truly are my trusted friends.
I will try to hold it together to get through work today and will re-read and reflect on all your words and advice later. Your precious time that you took from your busy lives is so appreciated
❤️❤️ Xx
You’ll be Ok Imho, I know it.
I pulled incredible strength from you lot here (including you) earlier in the week – more than I have words to say, but what LwLers said really had a massive impact in my life the very next day. Again, there is the frustrating bit about not being able to give much detail. But I can say – the care of people here gave me the strength to do something ‘right’, against all the might of my lim-hangover anxiety trying to push me against it.
I don’t want to hijack by getting into me here (I can’t discuss that more anyway). I just want to say don’t underestimate the strength this great community can provide, even when we’re at our lowest. I really get why you ‘understate’. It took a lot for me to cry out in the way I did earlier in the week too. But folk here always deliver when we do.
There’s life on the other side of this 💪👊🫂
@Imho
I am so, so sorry to hear of this curve fall you have been thrown. Believe me – how I’m feelin at the moment due to the arrogance and narcissism of my LO – I fully understand the emotions and turmoil that you are going through.
The others have eloquently commented, and I’m not really in a great place to be offering advice atm, but I want you to know that I am with and am literally sharing your pain – if for different reasons.
You WILL get through this. You will getvtobthatbokace they all us linemen’s dream if where it really doesn’t matter anymore. I really hope that that day arrives for you soon / but please know that I and we are all here for you.
Big hugs
Justme ❤️
@Imho
I’m sorry for the shocking typing!
“getvtobthatbokace” was meant to say “get to that place “
Xx
You hang in there too JMMO. There’s a few of us needing a lot from each other at the moment. Don’t underestimate how you can say helpful things to others even when you’re suffering. Bet you feel the same as me – glad beyond words that you got involved in this community before the darker side of the LE came!
The weekend and next week should give you pause from what I recall. I’ll have time on the weekend to write that post I threatened to about morning anxiety tips (they are helping me)
„ You will getvtobthatbokace“
I was so intrigued, Jmmo! It sounded like the secret solution of our problems, maybe some exotic spell. Also, I thought immediately of cake.
To @mila and @jmmo
getvtobthatbokace
Yes!!! yes to whatever this is count me in
😂😂😂
Thanks @LaR I’d appreciate that.
Hope you’re doing ok
JM
@ 💃
I just want to say: take some time and a lot of time, to GRIEVE. Grieving, grieving, and grieving…
Yes, please rent directly to us when you feel like or need, not in “sidelines” — sometimes I don’t carefully read chats among others (especially when overflowing), so didn’t even see your updates until others’ reaction to you poured in.
LE,
I can’t find your responses about GWTW. I read them yesterday and I’ve lost the thread.
She marries the second husband to pay the taxes on Tara. She goes to see Rhett to try to get the money from him (he’s in jail), but he won’t (or can’t) give it to her. And she literally runs into Frank in the next scene and sees he has a store and starts working her magic on him. I don’t see her as looking for a man to control. She just needs the money, and can she really trust the sister to get the money if her sister gets back with Frank? Scarlett has to handle everything. She takes care of the two sisters, Melanie and Ashley after the war.
Scarlett’s first husband is the same as the second. He happens to be at the right place at the right time. She’s upset over Ashley, and there he is.
I agree that Melanie is a better partner for Ashely. He’s right when he tells Scarlet they’re too different. But then he does what so many LOs do (or so many partnered/married people do) … dangle her along. He’s not really going to do anything with her, but he wants to know that he could.
Yeah, Ashley is a “bad” LO because he obviously has feelings for her (like that kiss) but can’t come out and tell her he’s with Melanie because he loves Melanie and wants to be with her. Maybe he enjoys the validation? She pins everything on how she believes he feels about her, but, as she realized later, he sees her like Rhett sees “that Watling woman.”
Serial,
“She pins everything on how she believes he feels about her, but, as she realized later, he sees her like Rhett sees “that Watling woman.””
Yep. That’s probably how a lot of LOs feel about the limerents who are so obsessed with them — the attention is nice, it’s flattering, there may be some reciprocal feelings, but their life hasn’t been upended.
It’s like the friend I posted about who I told about my LO … she was waiting for the rest of the story. She thought I was about to tell her about some big affair. My LE was like a book with a plot that only filled up the first quarter of the story. And then the rest of it was the same damn scene, over and over. It would have been good for some hallucinatory story where the main character is … er … mental. 🙂
@Marcia.
“My LE was like a book with a plot that only filled up the first quarter of the story. And then the rest of it was the same damn scene, over and over. It would have been good for some hallucinatory story where the main character is … er … mental. 🙂”
That description made me smile. 🙂
My LE seems to be fading after almost 2 weeks! It probably has to do with a frustrating cluster b person I’m dealing with at the moment. It’s so exhausting trying to stay 2-3 steps ahead of someone with the temperament of a bratty 4yo.
Hello! It’s been a number of weeks since I have written but I want to share a very interesting and positive development in my LE.
If you know my story, I am about 3 years and 2 months into an intense LE for my employee. It’s been a lot of emotional ups and downs over that time. For the last year plus I have been practicing fairly strict personal LC with LO. Over that time I have been caught in a cycle of LC for a few weeks, then letting some personal engagement with her creep in, falling off the wagon for a few days, getting frustrated, then repeat all over. It’s been exhausting. Even up until a month ago I was feeling as ‘smitten’ with LO as ever before. It seemed no end was in sight.
Then a few weeks back, out of nowhere really, the switch just flipped off. Over a week period my hyper romantic ideations of LO fizzled. Poof! She started to look less attractive, she started to act more annoying, and I started to just not care. And what is weird is nothing really changed. I just lost interest and I can’t really pinpoint why.
As of today I would call my LE in remission. I go long stretches of the day not ruminating about her now. Brain fog has lifted. I think of other people and other things. I have a few other fun and harmless crushes that occupy my romantic fantasies. And best of all, I just go about my day normally with her here at the workplace. I interact with her normally and don’t ruminate on it at all.
When I say this came out of nowhere I really mean it. It is totally unexpected. But, I am also reminded of the brilliant Dr. L blog “Im over this, let’s get coffee” so I am still going to be very careful moving forward. I don’t want a 2nd glimmer to happen.
I hope this is a bit of encouragement to those who are in the throws of LE that sudden and unexpected relief may someday just happen.
Hi Speedwagon,
so glad to read this! You seemed a bit stuck in this situation and now it sounds like you finally found the way out. Maybe subconsciously we work at it even without noticing it? So it seems sudden but in reality you were whittling away at limerence all the time. Congratulations!
Speedwagon,
Really good to read this development after all the cycles you have been through as you were not being able to do NC.
It’s funny how it just happened for you that flip of the switch with no real reason to pinpoint why.
You toughed it out ! 💪🏻
Maybe the lit match just burned until there was no match left to burn.
Absolutely encouraging. Thanks for sharing. hope you are enjoying relaxed, freer days now.
@Speed
Good good news Friend. Happy to read you’re finally coming out of it. Some things take a long time but you persevered and got out alive. I know it’s so hard sometimes.
Like you, my LO works with me again because she recently transferred over to the main plant with us now.
I got behind her coming into work a few weeks ago, but chose not to follow her into her parking lot. Figured it wouldn’t be good if I creep her out. Mainly I just feel mild indifference towards her now. I mean I’d love to see her again but we work at total opposite ends of the building now. Most likely it won’t happen much.
Good luck keeping up with the success streak. Maybe you’ll get your wish and she’ll resign at some point.
Hi Speedwagon,
Congratulations. This is good to hear. You really did have to tough out a long stretch – enjoy the freedom for all you can.
I have a hunch. The switch was a hard one to flip. All that time you were toughing it out, you were slowly pressing down on it. All the ways you densensitised to her / the negative evidence about her you accumulated – that was all pushing the switch down after all. Eventually, enough to flip it! Or you can look at it like draining your once-overflowing limerence well – one day the well finally became empty.
Well done man. Your story has always motivated me that I can both tough out and pull through my LE.
Hi Speedwagon,
Phew, wow, that’s great!
The sense of freedom must be immense? I remember getting to this point – I went through a horrid beige phase first, but when that was through, I just felt so liberated. I had my brain back and it felt good! It seems that you also went through a beige phase (from your posts a few months ago), and you are out of it now. How wonderful!
I like @Imho’s analogy of a match burning out – you got to the point where there was just no more match left to burn? Because you are at the 3-year stage, this might have been the case. I also took 2-3 years to get to this point. Others seem to get there faster (thank goodness).
I do believe that much of limerence is due to a lack of attention from others, benign neglect regarding our needs and the limerent’s remedy to this is to construct an elaborate fantasy that fulfills those needs. I feel as though, for some of us mid-lifers, the needs are about feeling seen and feeling that we are still valid in our middle age. I do believe that being here on LwL and getting ‘seen’ by our internet friends helps with that! Maybe LwL is like free therapy. I also think we need to start providing validation to ourselves, by interacting with others around us, who appreciate us, feeling good about our looks and achievements (could be large or small, just need to hold meaning for us), and maybe making some new connections or interests to keep our brains happy and connected. Once we are free of the limerent cage we can make a list of other things that interest us and just go for it. My list right now: appreciating other people, art appreciation, music (all types except for ‘bland’ stuff :)), human psychology, ….
The very best to you – long may it continue, Speedy!!
wow @Speedwagon
that is fascinating…and wonderful! i am thrilled for you.
i am so glad to hear all of this, and to read along…for the encouragement, yes, but also just to know you are feeling relief. it is amazing to read when people on this blog feel better. it feels good to read your story.
i actually wish you could get a brain scan so we could all understand your phenomenon! it is so interesting as you describe it!
congratulations!
🙂
csc
I am feeling very unhappy with myself at the moment. I saw LO TWICE yesterday, which may be a first for me. Sammy once said to me, the more I get, the more I want, and he was so right.
LO is a very unsatisfactory friend. His self-absorption is breathtaking, and I don’t know why I ever thought he’d be interested in anything I had to say. His entire life is hectic. I used to feel sorry about this, but now I think he likes it. Always running late, always planning more things than he can complete in a day.
He is wound up to eleven at the prospect of selling his house and moving 3,000 miles away, and with good reason. He vaguely mentioned inviting me over to watch a movie next weekend, but I don’t believe that.
I’m disgusted with him and disgusted with myself.
Please weight VERY carefully whether you want to accept the invitation, if it is true.
I’m not worried about it. He and his mother want to watch a Netflix movie called “The Two Popes.” I don’t have Netflix and have never seen it. They have both seen it and want to see it again. LO’s mother used to work for the Catholic Church and was a big fan of Pope Francis.
He tentatively invited me to watch with them, although this will never happen, based on his track record. Remember that I have been waiting for two years, two months for a painting I gave him to be repaired.
Then gather all your courage and strength to ask him for the painting DIRECTLY!
Without asking, you won’t get it back; asking you have 50% chance. What could be the worst? Losing his current “friendship”? Based on my definition of friendship, you don’t have one, but only one-sided limerence.
Sorry to be direct, Norma, you’re not even TRYING to take some power back…. You continue letting his personality, ideology, his behaviors direct/dictate your mind, your mood, your well being…. Why❓
He’s leaving, what are you trying g to get out from this toxic LE? Absolutely impossible even for a friendship❓Does he bring or ever brought anything you desired but missed in your past❓I’d try to sort of these questions if I were you… otherwise, you’re just going to be stuck to your current “unhappiness”, even after he leaves…
Be well!
I have asked for the painting repeatedly. I am not afraid to ask. I ask periodically, and his answer is always that the framers are out of state working on a giant project.
Then can you part with this painting? Is it life-or-death important?
Oh, sure, I am prepared to part with it if necessary.
I hope to get it back, but it’s not valuable, and I won’t lose too much sleep if things go sideways.
He has apologized repeatedly, but I guess that doesn’t really count for anything. My opinion of him as a person has dropped considerably.
Perhaps it’s my punishment for trusting him?
Apologized? Based on what you told us here, I would not continue dealing with him in any fashion, even if he were on his knees and give me $1bn …. But it’s just me!
Please don’t let my biased, limited, “blind” view on your LO cloud your decisions… I just don’t wish to see you in such a continuously mentally-tortured spot… *sigh*….
Norma,
just tell him he has to bring the painting back before he moves away, period, and let him give you a date when he will do it.
Norma (& all)
At this point, don’t you think that LO, no matter whose LO or what positive merits LO has, is just a WALKING DRUG to us, limerents❓The more you have IT, the more you want it — the nature of drug, chemical or human.
If I were you, I would not spent more time or energy to count or recount who LO is, what’s the point? Godlike or Devillike, she or he IS a walking drug, more dangerous than any other type! Remove IT, mentally or physically from one’s life, is only solution‼️
If LO is a colleague, then you face much tougher challenge… but Speedwagon did it — maybe there is a neural switch in the brain that can be turned on and off — glimmer and death… Maybe neurologists could do more research on this.
For those whole LO sounds “good” (🚜, I’m alluding to yours), one has to remove IT first from the brain, and then take IT back later, perhaps as a so-so friend, without ZERO LE affection.
Norma, you’re in a much luckier position, your LO will move away soon. You’re at the end of the LE tunnel! You’ll be liberated from this agonizing burden soon and gain back all your lost energy. Please look forward to the day, LO departs!
I meant, “with ZERO LE affection”.
Thank you for those wonderful words. You are right, of course. It IS some kind of drug. Before I knew what limerence once, I teasingly told him I needed “my LO fix.” I didn’t realize how right I was. Just sitting next to him is intoxicating.
I got a taste of what is in store because LO went away for three weeks and I did better than I thought I could.
Your thoughtful message provides so much comfort to me. Exactly what I needed to hear!
Each LO is a normal person to other people, but the most potent DRUG, not a sort of, but plainly a real harmful DRUG to ITs attached limerent(s).
An (un)aware Sensor LO is a non-vicious,charming Person DRUG to many limerents at the same time.
Narc is a poisonous DRUG.
That’s very insightful Snow.. I like that a lot..
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
#MyLO
MJ, thank you for your validation! 🤝
Hope you’re doing well, now that your LO has moved back to your building…
My intuition of last year — “losing this job might be a blessing in disguise”, has been proved correct! Now, I can confidently declare it!
When my logical mind said this or that was IMPOSSIBLE, then impossible happened… beyond rationalities, beyond imaginations, and beyond prayers to Genie… .
Never ignore your intuition, however it feels astronomically impossible or illogical….
Check your first sensations and thoughts when your consciousness barely wake in the morning/dawn — the gate between Unconscious and conscious mind is still open… when your soul would speak to yourself in a semi-recognizable form/language, not dreams.
Snow,
I still wouldn’t veer from my ‘Good LO’ characterisation of MFF. She’s been very kind, discrete and understanding at all stages. I do feel I underwent a similar ‘desensitisation’ to Speedwagon’s. The difference from him to me is, he never had the prior friendship and never claimed he wanted friendship ongoing.
MFF is ‘circling back’ a bit now to be truthful. I’d say she seems to miss my attention level and is now seeking it more again. I am surprised she has taken as long as this to show it. I do feel strong enough now that I can deal with the new development without getting pulled in. For the first time I feel a bit closer to the equilibrium with her that I want.
Still early times though, LaR.
Just saying;)
But I believe and you and your friendship 💪🏻!
IN you.
Also want to add that I get tiny bit by tiny bit less resentful towards XLO, slowly nearing the former feeling of relaxed but not too caring companionship we had.
It really is early times, Mila. I’m not naive – I know I have a long way to go, with lots of stages to go through, to work this out completely.
You have to keep in mind that developments in mine can seem to play out on speed (this week being an extreme example – I have ridden every rollercoaster in the theme park this week) because there is still exposure to her most days. The changes I report are more to do with my handling of it than much material change, I reckon.
The point I made on my day one on LwL almost a year ago was that I’d feel happiest if I could shed my limerence but still have her as a friend. Another LwLer once said to me “don’t let limerence beat that”.
That’s always been my goal. Whether I can do it, I still don’t know. I have a bit of faith back now after a really tricky patch.
Thank you for your continued faith and hope about it.
The advantage I have compared to you trying to do this with your xLO3 is that she is very astute, and (I believe) wants the same outcome, and equally understands the hazards to us getting there, all without saying it. That kind of mutual understanding gives it the best chance, but I still don’t know if it’ll be enough… Limerence is a bastard as DrL has told us more than once.
Mila and LaR
At the moment, I don’t WANT to get less resentful. It’s not healthy, or progressive, yadda yadda. But It’s a stage I need to go through. And I’m not done with disliking her. I need to feel that wretched anger to rid myself of her influence.
Just my perspective
Jmmo ❤️
JMMO,
I really believe in what you’re doing. I read your other post too and I’m glad that helped.
Your LO and mine sound oceans apart. So what’s good for the goose may not be good for the gander here. Mine is a good soul, a friend of 11 years. She has never overstepped a line in the LE. I have an SO, she doesn’t. She is entirely respectful of that fact. She is not everyone’s cup of tea and can struggle for friends, but we mutually ‘get’ each other. Because of that, I have let myself get sucked over a line into limerence. It has been hard to wrench myself out (took 2 years) because of all that, but I’ve done it. I’m navigating how to get back to the friendship I once had with her, but post-limerence. Or what a new version of that can look like.
This sounds miles away from your experience. I have no justifiable anger to expend towards xLO, you do.
We (all) have a lot in common but a lot also differs. Regardless, we all want to leave the effects of limerence behind 👊
🚜,
I did not ask you “veer” anything, you missed my point.
A LO, class A or class D (a friend LO or NARC LO) doesn’t cause any LE ”harm” to anyone else, but only the limerent inflicted.
If a glimmer happens mutually and both sides are available without other barriers, no LE Even occurs, they can try out dating/relationship; either side could NOT be called/defined as LO in this ideal acunarlo.
Once one side slips into the altered state of mind for whatever reasons, the other side becomes LO, bringing LE “harms”. By then, it’s has little to do with LO’s qualities, be IT angelic or devilish. The issue has been shifted to limerent and how s/he could get his pre-LE state of mind back or even transform to a better mental stage.
Based on what happened to you this week (a roller coast ride), I think my hunch is not far away…
I completely understand and support your wish to hold this long friendship without LE with her, but it’s catching 22. As I said, based on DrL’s blogs, you may have to let her go mentally (mentally ghosting her) and then take her back later when your LE is totally gone.
I agree with you that it sounds like you have a long way to go… based on my perception which could be totally wrong, I really wish I am wrong in this regard.
Sorry for any typo, I’m in a park in front of a pond and small water fall, with a few geese and turtles…
🦜
“By then, it’s has little to do with LO’s qualities, be IT angelic or devilish”
Agreed to a point – limerent will *always* harm themselves a lot once it reaches this stage. But I think an LO can contribute to the strength of it. Anything from pouring fuel on the fire (Narc – in that case LO is doing a good proportion of the harm) to doing nothing at all (totally uninterested LO – in that case limerent is doing all the harm), and then everything in between.
A “good LO” (as DrL describes it and as I also see it) is one who is not actively seeking to cause any harm, in fact might do the exact opposite. An LO going NC with their limerent could be an example of ‘good LO’ behaviour, for example. It will hurt the limerent at the time but be good for their recovery in the end.
“you may have to let her go mentally (mentally ghosting her) and then take her back later”
I think I have already done the work to ‘ghost’ the romantic feelings side. Those have gone now. Not in a 💨🚘 ‘switch-flip’ way, but across 2 months that side faded to at most tiny embers or perhaps even nothingness. That spell included an NC in March of 3 weeks due to her being away – no texts, literally nothing. It was very different to my previous NC spell in that I didn’t pine or hope to get a text – I was relieved at the quiet and headspace and hoped *not* to get one.
So, some sand has shifted there for sure. But then a new phase came in where I started to feel bad at how I was ghosting. Clarification – I can’t ghost the physical person as you already know. But I was emotionally ghosting – maybe what is sometimes called on here ‘gray rocking’. That wasn’t making me feel good at all. If you think of all I’ve said about MFF before – then her, me, our friendship don’t deserve a ‘gray rock’ outcome. You say I could ‘take her back later’, but if I gray-rocked for a long period, she may not want to ‘take me back’. It is preferable for me to hit some middle ground. These are delicate lines to walk.
The pleasant events of this past week have involved a peaceful co-existence with her, where I have not gray-rocked, not felt any stirrings of longing, refused certain things that might be deemed risky (I don’t think they will be a problem but am being cautious), but still bumped along and related nicely with her for the first time in a good while. I’ll see how it continues now…
I hope the weekend brings pleasant things to you. If nothing else, find more geese. I’m off out on a trip to meet a couple of my uni friends for the day. Now they’re an example of proper friends! Thrown together in uni residence on day 1, and still got them in my life decades later! (One of them is among my 3 LE-disclosed people, so I might get asked 😬)
🚜,
“But I think an LO can contribute to the strength of it.
Agreed. Narc LO makes the limerents’ life a hell, and their recovery much tougher.
“doing nothing at all (totally uninterested LO – in that case limerent is doing all the harm).”
Your MFF was NOT doing nothing, or “totally uninterested”: she used to text you like waterfall if you texted first. You just said that recently she missed your friendship. That’s still a subtle way to “fan” your LE.
“An LO going NC with their limerent could be an example of ‘good LO’ behaviour, for example. It will hurt the limerent at the time but be good for their recovery in the end.”
That was what I did with every single limrent (in 2 digits) I had in my life! There was no misunderstanding, but some refreshed attempts on their sides to reconnect. You know, a Glimmer cannot be cultivated in me — a weird fact!
“That spell included an NC in March of 3 weeks due to her being away – no texts, literally nothing. It was very different to my previous NC spell in that I didn’t pine or hope to get a text – I was relieved at the quiet and headspace and hoped *not* to get one.”
I second 🔥 🍊 🍷 that it’s still early for you with only weeks to count in NC/LC, while some of us measure it by months or years. But I really hope that with your strong T mind and LwL’s wisdom, you could get to the other side of LE soon. There will be so much mental room to gain back for other human loving connections, with your SO, MFF, old and new friends, even grudged family members. Other forms of Greek love will grow stronger.
“But then a new phase came in where I started to feel bad at how I was ghosting … maybe what is sometimes called on here ‘gray rocking’. ”
Can you take this step as a strategy, not a permanent state of mind? (Meaning you know and think she’s still a solid, valuable friend, but NOT demonstrate it to your MFF)
“That wasn’t making me feel good at all. If you think of all I’ve said about MFF before – then her, me, our friendship don’t deserve a ‘gray rock’ outcome. “
No, it does not! But, you can’t have it all! If you truly want to get rid of LE TOTALLY, you might have to temporarily “gray rock” until LE is surely gone.
“You say I could ‘take her back later’, but if I gray-rocked for a long period, she may not want to ‘take me back’.”
Then think and prepare Stoically: what would you do if that the worst happens? That’s the risk/price you may need to take/pay. Also, it would be a true TEST of your friendship of 11 years! Based on what you told us, I think she will come back, just my hunch. The other question is: will you take her back after gray rocking for a certain period of time?
“It is preferable for me to hit some middle ground. These are delicate lines to walk.”
Understandable! But by doing so, you maybe unable to remove LE completely.
“but still bumped along and related nicely with her for the first time in a good while. I’ll see how it continues now…”
Yes. Keenly observe your state of mind… hope that peace lasts.
“I hope the weekend brings pleasant things to you. If nothing else, find more geese. “
Thank you. I have classes later today, and need to get my exams out this weekend. It’s the final time. Several parks are near me, the huge inter-state river is just half block away, tons of trees, geese, flowers, vegetation, and half a block from subway. I’m lucky to be in this residential area.
❄️
“There will be so much mental room to gain back for other human loving connections, with your SO, MFF, old and new friends, even grudged family members.”
Snow, this is tough to admit. But I think when I look back at these years in hindsight, my LE, SO and MFF will all be secondary to the ‘grudged family member’ you allude to. You are a very clever soul who pays N/S attention to my posts, so I know we mutually get who that family member is, but please don’t broadcast it too much here.
All I can say about that is that it is much more complicated than I can convey here. I hope you know me enough by now to know I am a person that wants to like and understand people. That family member has pushed WAY beyond my boundaries. How I wish I could explain properly why I feel like that. 🛩🏴🕓🫖🚜🙏.
I can plough my 🚜 all over LWL and hopefully get over my LE, but that thing is bigger.
@🚜 🌽
What’s “N/S attention”?
What I said in my previous post is about how I’ve been feeling about difficult people in my life, e.g. Mom. Beside clarity in my head, joyful mood most of the time (began drawing male eyes on the street again), and the settlement in my chest in every dawn, I also become more patient and friendlier with Mom. In the past, I had to switch to my Stoic mindset in front of her; now, my mind seems to have naturally put the past of us in the past (that’s my Granny and Dad’s spirit always)…. Sensing my easiness, she appeared a bit more relaxed or less nervous — I don’t like to see/hear insecurity in people’s eyes/mind, making me feel deeply sad…
I can’t tell you how different it feels when LE is truly gone out of me… Overall, I got an overwhelming “glorious” outcome after this LE (I guess all the LE pains of over 7 years are just the price to pay) — becoming what I have dreamed or imagined to become….
I’ve never felt so carefree in my “newish” skin (still shredding the old one) and anxiety-free (you know I desired very little to begin from the material world), after my old cptsd is 99% gone and an “unknown” psychological hole of the life time was filled unexpectedly. I confidently think/believe that I can handle any new unexpected situations in all areas of my life….
What’s I am trying to say here is when you reach your total LE-free state, your mindset will be renewed from the prior LE time, regardless how you free your LE. By then, your past or current dilemmas may not look so dire as you see them now.
You may find some effective, lovable solutions to put the painful past all in the past (don’t EVER expect/believe you can change another, except yourself). We ourselves get hurt profoundly when we are unable to forgive those who have done us memorable “harms”, inadvertently or intentionally.
“You can’t save people. You can only love them.” — Anais Nin.
🍅,
My family issue was rocket fuel to the LE, but it existed before it, during it, and will continue to exist after it. I am not sure the two are that entangled other than it gave it extra fuel. It has been and is an even bigger issue for me than the limerence – I just don’t discuss it much here (only a little bit with you once or twice) as it is outside the scope of LwL.
I think it is impressive how you’ve forgiven your mom and where you’ve got to with her these days. You probably won’t like me saying that because you don’t take compliments easily, and will be thinking how to downplay it in your reply! (?was I accurate there?). But regardless, it’s genuinely how I feel. I am impressed with what you say about it.
“don’t EVER expect/believe you can change another, except yourself)”
Very true. But I could change myself into a martian and it wouldn’t solve the family matter. To begin solving it (if he even wants to), he needs to change and nobody else can make it happen but him. His past track record of behaviour is worse than that of any Narc LO ever described on this site! If he doesn’t change, that will just continue.
” “You can’t save people. You can only love them.” — Anais Nin.” ”
That’s aspirational re the above. Maybe I can find that somewhere deep within me.
Oh, and N / S meant Intuition and Sensing (Myers Briggs letters).
🚜,
“I just don’t discuss it much here (only a little bit with you once or twice) as it is outside the scope of LwL.”
I’m not pressing you to talk her about your family’s private issue at all. But if it was the biggest cause of your LE, then yourself has to somehow work out to remove this big “family splinter” in yourself so that not only LE will be totally gone, but also you won’t slip into another LE. I would use “individuation” process to work with it.
“I think it is impressive how you’ve forgiven your mom and where you’ve got to with her these days.”
Granny and Dad set up good examples for me, although neither were even a 1/4 buddhist. In that culture and modern history, if one does not know how to endure and live with adversities and eventually let go all sorts of personal, family or societal grudges, one can’t survive psychologically, definitely can’t live with healthy, optimistic outlook on life.
One of the national, philosophical character throughout history is: when you (collective) can’t remove obstacles or kill your realistic, mental or psychological “enemies” in your life, what are you going to do❓Whining about it from sunrise to sunset❓ And this ties to the Western Stoicism — how you’re going to react, when obstacles are 🆎 “out of your control”.
“But I could change myself into a martian and it wouldn’t solve the family matter. “
If you treat this family matter just as unresolvable — like the family has got a shared “cancer”, what would happen?
“To begin solving it (if he even wants to), he needs to change and nobody else can make it happen but him. “
So treat it as a fact — he WILL not change‼️ If I were you, at this point, I’d ask myself: until he leaves this world, what do I do now to make my life easier and even joyful from time to time (of course, can’t be all the time)
“His past track record of behaviour is worse than that of any Narc LO ever described on this site! If he doesn’t change, that will just continue.”
Again accept this fact as an unchangeable obstacle/enemy in your life, what are you going to do❓What happens if you don’t react, inside out, to his behaviors? He can do whatever suited to him, but you hold Stoic attitude and behavior, and even feel some sorry for him due to his illness, then what happens? Give it a shot, to see how you FEEL inside.
“But regardless, it’s genuinely how I feel. I am impressed with what you say about it.”
Mom’s arrival also served as one of two major causes of my LE — I only “define” LE when it turns to the uncontrollable nerve-rocking stage to simplify discussion. Back then, I had no clue about LE but some ideas about cptsd (after 2 years of the therapy, with that arrogant and controlling therapist). So I fought with her Narc attitude and behaviors, in vain — she smirked watching my anger, I could not believe my eyes!
After learning about how to handle a Narc — going NC, I practiced mentally NOT engaging and reacting to her behaviors. I think my face later changed to a “stone” so she could not detect what’s going on inside me. After I cutting off all holiday time and her birthday together, she began to change. Then I gradually resumed holiday time, since some of my cousins on Mom side are living in town.
“You can’t save people. You can only love them.” — Anais Nin.” ”
“That’s aspirational re the above. Maybe I can find that somewhere deep within me.”
I think anyone, particularly you, can find or CULTIVATE such a love in them. It’s inside of you, making yourself HAPPY first and far most! I saw this in Granny, who lived through 2 wars, lost her little daughter, youthful grandson, and two sons before her time, yet the most optimistic and joyful person at daily basis! For me, I found that when I could love — giving genuine love (Agape) to others, I’m happiest.
But in LE or even with its splinters, such a capacity was taken away/ repressed, our nerve is rocked, our longing takes over our heart.
“Change inside of you, you change your entire world.” — 🐦🔥.
That’s how imaginations, envisions, and even illusions could work, when you believed in them, even briefly at a right time… That’s how any belief system works, logical thinking often destroy them. Religion still matters (I’m not religious at all, but quite spiritual).
Synchrony: I woke up from a lengthy, messy dream about taking Mom to Hong Kong for a group tour, and kept missing meals and group activities… I could not believe my disorganization! Then your post arrived about my Mom!
🍅,
Thank you for your reply about family bits and bobs.
I don’t have much time to type out replies today but will definitely make a fuller reply than this when I do.
I think our parents’ generation (in 🇬🇧 too) were pretty stoic, our grandparents’ one even more so. I had an incredibly stoic and inspirational Gran too.
Synchronicity – was talking about that very thing with my old friends just yesterday, before you brought it up here.
I see the sense in the mindset you are asking if I might like to cultivate. I have been working on it in relation to him and surrounding issues. I have just tried to explain it to SO, who is less sure than me that it’s the right thing to do. There are certain hoops to jump through in regard to protecting others before I can try and just ‘rest’ with it all a bit more.
He wasn’t the cause of my LE, but contributed. LEs as we have said many times are all about lacks or things being out of kilter in ourselves. That was/is one thing that’s very out of kilter, very far from where I’d like it to be. But you are right – I can’t control it that much, if at all. So getting OK with that fact is a good goal. What I meant is that he has caused me even more worry than the LE. I think the situation fed the LE a bit (I wanted distraction), but they’re two issues that I mostly need to work through separately.
🚜,
The family “splinter”, unlike LE, will remain indefinitely until one’s deathbed, it’s a realistic fact! So how do we live with it with the least amount of pains and maximum readiness to face more potential hurts might upcoming?
Should you feel like talking about it further at any time, shoot a 🗒️ to 👨🏻⚕️, he’ll give you my 📧.
Meanwhile, feel clam and stay cool no matter what unexpected have occurred and will happen. LwL appreciates your kind and helpful posts.
🚜,
“There are certain hoops to jump through in regard to protecting others before I can try and just ‘rest’ with it all a bit more.”
This line was stuck in my head, I knew I did not respond it but need to.
Stoic way is mainly your INNER ATTITUDE towards adversity — people or situations. Logistically, you HAVE TO do whatever is needed to protect others and yourself. But EXPECT all possible worsts when you take those necessary, protective measurements, Narc people may react with hostile or violent words (assuming they won’t shoot you with a gun). That’s when/where your mind / inner attitude needs to be VERY STOIC.
Expect and mentally prepare for all possible worsts, while carrying on what one has to do realistically and logistically. I think your SO would feel better if you explain to her clearly about mental approaches in Stoicism. One can polite smile to one’s enemies while holding Stoic stand inside. If you react, even just inside, you lose; you lose the peace/equilibrium of your mind, and possibly consequential rationality.
A true Stoic does not care about any sort of “judgments”/ assessments — positive or negative; they behave according to their sense of virtues.
🍅,
Thank you for all you said in the two posts, including the 📧 offer you made.
I think the ✌️things can be happening at the same time in parallel: 1. putting in practical measures to protect 👴👵, and 2. self care by cultivating inner stoicism about it – not letting it pull my emotions around or interfere with my enjoyment of life. I concur with what you said that the presence of the splinter may just have to be accepted, the 💅 from it prepared for, and the knowledge that I can’t remove it in a gallant ‘rescue’ accepted.
I can 👀 the application of your combined Stoic (controlling inner reactions) and Buddhist (letting go of trying to control anything I can’t) approach more here than I could for the LE. With the LE I think I was too 🤯 by the wanting to 🤜 the feeling away, but not the 👧. This situation (let’s use 🛻 to refer) feels more like one where I am stuck with it and need to prepare for the worst but also learn to 🧱 it out and make the best regardless. 🔚 the LE always felt like something I *could* control, *if only I could figure out how*. Contrast that with the Martian comment I made … I *know* this 🛻situation is out of my control. You 👀 even though most of my 💬💬💬 on LwL has been about the LE, I think I’ve already been able to apply some of the principles to 🛻, perhaps better than to the LE.
Glimmer…
It can strike anywhere, anytime…
“Roller Derby Queen” – Jim Croce (1973)
https://youtu.be/hD7UqK2GZko?feature=shared
Glimmer—
Can strike at any age, 12 or 92 in both sexes, or at any mood — exhilarated over the Moon or depressed to Dante’s inferno…
@LaR
Absolutely. Completely agree with you my dear friend. We have our our own stories, but they are linked by the same thread, and the same wish – which is to be rid of this “need” for these effects once and for all.
Power to you mate 💪🏻👊
Jmmo
Friends
I’ve had what I hope is a breakthrough moment.
I had a catch up with my manager today. She asked me if we could talk about me (which I hate). I said, yes. She said that she’d been aware that I was not myself, that I was unhappy. After a little circling she said that she had noticed that LO and I had become friends a while ago, and that this had worried her.
I told her that yes we were. However, I had recently decided that I no longer wanted any kind of relationship with her. I had deleted and blocked her. I did not go into details.
She then told me that she had heard a few things about LO, and that whilst it was none of her business, she was glad that I had stepped away. She did not think that LO was a good presence in my life.
I didn’t tell her anything, but I can’t tell you how powerful it’s been. Talk about validation – the things that she told me I’d heard directly from LO . There was nothing new but with an entirely new perspective. She then reminded me that her office is a safe place, and should LO breach professional boundaries then she would deal with it.
I’ve just finished for a week’s leave – and I have sobbed since. Not through pain, but through vindication, that someone so removed had my back and could see the poison I was exposing myself to. And someone so significant in my professional life.
I said that I’d been able to talk open and honestly to a group of friends. That’s you guys, but I didn’t tell her that.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
In the grand scheme of things that chat doesn’t mean much. But I’ll tell you this – it’s going to before I set foot back anywhere hear that woman (to quote csc)!
Justmeandmyobsessions
Oh my gosh, @justme – jmmo ~!!!!
Wow, wow. Yes, a breakthrough for sure. It sounds like you have a really good manager who cares for her team. I am so glad. I’m glad your manager is not a gossip, but someone who understands how to speak in respect and privacy. 🙂
It is interesting how we often think we are alone in things, when someone is toxic (I use this word “toxic” but I know it’s a pop-psychology word to describe something more deeply layered in an individual.) It’s almost like that person’s behavior is isolating — we think we are the only ones, we think it is us. This isn’t just the case with limerents, this is with others, as well.
It can be incredibly validating, and a huge relief, when one finds out they were not crazy, not silly, not stupid…not any of the bad things…but….that it was the person they were dealing with, who has a pattern — no, it is not you.
I am so glad your manager was forthcoming and did share some relevant details with you. It sounds like she did so tactfully and thoughtfully – not as gossip— without breaching LO’s privacy, either. She sounds like a true professional. It may not mean an instant antidote to all you have been through, but, it sounds like it’s a *major innoculation*, to say the very least!
I am delighted this happened. You have been very, very diligent about handling this difficult situation. I know it’s a two way street, I know we get ourselves into these things…but…you saw the issue, then immediately tried to put the fire out. And you took hold of that and owned it.
I am so happy for you – and VERY happy to know you have a week leave. I hope it’s restorative, and I would hope it’s not too intense, going over all your feelings now that you have this bit of recon from your manager.
With care…and happiness for you!
csc
csc
Thanks as ever for your words and your perspective. It’s amazing how you seem to pinpoint my feelings exactly, and it’s so comforting.
Thank you for your friendship and support. I hope I can offer the same to you.
Your friend
Justme x
csc
I’ve also been meaning to tell you for a while how much I love the Fenna videos. So meaningful and accurate from someone who has been there and knows. Thank you for pointing me to her 😊
Jmmo x
@jmmo
thank you for letting me know you find fenna’s videos helpful. i do, too.
yes, fenna’s videos helped me see that being limerent is not a thing that “losers do”…i mean, she’s normal! she’s beautiful! she’s articulate…and still! she has limerent tendencies!
realizing that was huge for me. i know that most of us need to remain anonymous, for important reasons. but, seeing the faces of actual limerents – understanding there is nothing “wrong” with us…it has been a huge comfort to me.
there really is nothing wrong with us. no more than there is something wrong with someone facing any issue that affects their healthy existence. we deserve compassion…from ourselves….even if what is happening to us is so hard.
hugs — your friend,
csc
Jmmo,
that’s a big thing! I‘m very glad! You have a perspective and compassionate boss. I have to say one caveat that I myself don’t believe in, but of course we only hear your side of the story, and it might be that your manager is somewhat biased in your direction and not being fair to LO, it’s quite a thing to speak bad about one worker to another, I have to say. If that gets round, it might cause trouble.
But I think she got the situation right and wanted to help you a bit.
One good news is that you don’t have to fear of being officially accused of mobbing or bring personal stuff into work, when you avoid LO (something I feared a bit).
But the very good news is the validation from a (hopefully) neutral person that you are not completely deluded in your perception of her nature. I do think it’s a very important step, because we tend to boil in our own soup and doubt our perceptions and never know if we are blinded by limerence and avoid reality.
I had one conversation with a mutual friend about XLO when I was very frustrated, and it was so good for me that he immediately knew what I was talking about. Before, I wasn’t sure if I was completely unfair and ungrateful and spiteful, but this friend validated my perception of XLO as a friend immediately. He even said harsher things about him than me, although they get along well and are still friends.
It meant much to me that he could see what I was frustrated of.
So, your LO seems to have quite a reputation? But it seems also that she stopped to contact you, right? I mean, saying hello in office is ok, but she doesn’t call any more?
Maybe there’s peace now.
Hi Mila
You are quite right, and I spent a lot of time last night rationalising it and boxing almost everything you have said. My issues are not solved, but as with your experience, having someone say it unprompted without knowing anything about the true episode has restored some faith in my addled brain. Also having that reassurance that if she did try to make it difficult at work, my manager would have my back. I’ve long suspected that there has been some needle between them previously, so maybe my manager has had a taste of some of the traits.
She hasn’t called me or messaged – or should I say that I wouldn’t know if she had. She is firmly blocked on all platforms. And if she tries teams at work, I have a work based response ready to go!
Thanks for your support and thoughts. They mean a great deal, Mila . I hope you know how I value you.
Jmmo x
Hi Jmmo,
I think you have it all sorted quite well and now it can only get better!
Really, I think it’s only a matter of time until the truth about your LO‘s unattractiveness hits really home with you. Relax and be a bit proud.
„Thanks for your support and thoughts. They mean a great deal, Mila . I hope you know how I value you.“
Thank you very much, you are such a nice person. I have to say I don’t agree, I feel a bit flaky here, I don’t get every post or respond (although the searching tool works I seldom use it). I‘m very reliable on real life , but that means a bit of work and remembering a lot, and I just cannot do it on a same level here. I know I don’t have to as I explained to LaR myself, but still, not sure if I deserve praise, I just answer when it suits me and often leave out the niceties while you people are always so polite:)
Hi Mila
Thanks for the encouragement regarding this phase. I have to say that something feels different this morning, but it may only be temporary. LOs unattractiveness is beginning to shout louder and louder….
I caught the chat that you and LaR were having about feeling the need to respond. I’m the same – but trust me, you don’t. I don’t expect the lovely helpful replies I get from my LwL family, but it means so much knowing you’re there .
So if you don’t mind, I’ll defend my previous comments about how lovely and helpful and supportive you are – in the hope that you’re reassured that you don’t have to do anything differently. X
I’m going to second JM, Mila. You (just like me, actually) may think you’re not reading posts, responding to or supporting everyone as much as your ideal ‘standard’. But lower expectations of yourself – what you do here is great! You have a great memory for details, pick out the key bits of posts even if skimming them, and I have *always* had a reply from you when I have hoped for one – that goes for when I directly ask/name-drop you, and not.
Come on 🔥🍊🍷😜, take the compliment all the rest of us want to give you. We can’t all be wrong. You are being very British if you won’t take a compliment!
@JM – to your other post, I am doing a great deal better than a week ago. Spring’s in the air here, isn’t it (yes re my location), and I’m going to try and enjoy the fact 😀
Jmmo and LaR,
Thanks a lot! You are lovely!
Also, thanks for the great morning advice, LaR, sounds like good ideas for generally starting the morning.
Sorry to be hogging the board, but I am in distress and writing helps me so much.
I want to give an example of why LO and I are incompatible as friends, limerence aside. Some of you may recall that my guinea pig, Cristobal, died last week. My holy roller neighbor texted me to say she was sorry, but then launched into a lecture about how “Jesus loves you more than any pet, and He hasn’t given up on you. He’s waiting for you to accept him.”
I found this deeply offensive because I am already a Christian and prefer to pray in private. She thinks that because I don’t want to go to church with her, that I am some kind of lost soul. The fact that she took my beloved pet’s death as an excuse to lecture me about religion is disgusting. In the interest of keeping peace, I said nothing.
I told LO this story and he said I was looking at it wrong. He said I should not be offended, but flattered. I said, why on earth should I be flattered? He said, because she sees you as worth saving. I thought this was nuts, and I disagree 100%.
He then said he thought Elon Musk and Donald Trump have no ulterior motives for doing what they’re doing. I said, “Uh, one word. POWER.” He said no, they have enough power. I said, people like that never have enough power. He thinks my opinion is dead wrong. I think his opinion is naive and I can’t believe what I am hearing.
I realize that people can stay friends in spite of differences of opinions, but he continues to surprise me with his ideas. Not necessarily in a good way.
His opinions are so incomprehensible to me that I get upset. He seems to enjoy a “lively debate,” which I perceive as an argument, so I find I am avoiding controversial topics.
When you have a friend that you have to walk on eggshells around, it damages the relationship. I am already very gun-shy because he has lost his temper over dumb things that he thought I was doing or saying, but wasn’t.
So why can’t you just leave him on your own accord? What are you waiting for?
That seems an odd question for a limerent person to ask.
I guess I’m indeed out of the latest limerence; your statement seems to have just confirmed so.
I was just thinking earlier today that why I sounded full of “cold” T mind, even short of empathy to certain cases, although I know I felt the same “helpless” when I was in throe of it. I also thought that LE “damaged” a lot of my previous logical thinking capacity and made me stuck in the obsession for so long….
Another question is: if I had found LwL earlier, and the job situation did not suddenly change, would I be able to get out of LE while xLO would be still unavoidable? In another word, without the forced NC, what would happen? That’s the situation a lot of LwLers are dealing with — a total NC is impossible. Could Speedwagon’s “switch” to be eventually clicked in every limerent’s brain?
Now another bigger question: am I still a limerent while I’m not in a LE? (I still have mental OCD for sure.) Some LwLers pointed out before that only in a LE, we’re considered as limerents, not when we are out. I thought it’s one’s nature, tendency. Maybe one is a HALF limerent with sounding rationality and strong willpower, when one is not in LE?
I still consider Limerence is “mania love” compared to a big crush/love affair. “In limerence” is very different from “in love”; the former comprises Eros + Mania; the latter Eros + Philip + Ludus + Agape + Pragma + Philautia + storge. The former is sheerly detrimental to an ACTIVE limerent.
I guess I’m an INACTIVE limerent now, without an active LO.
❄️,
👩🦰🏃♂️ sometimes says he is ‘post limerent’, meaning not just over most recent L.E. but believes he won’t fall limerent for anyone else now. It sort of ties with your some of your positions about limerence as ‘mirror to self’, in that the reason he gives for getting to post-lim is having resolved the internal psychology behind his two big LEs.
If a person is over one LO but still vulnerable to a new glimmer and LE, that’s different to the above.
Sometimes I guess we don’t know which category we’re in.
🚜,
I had an early nap (after walking over 7 miles for appts & tutoring), so I’m quite awake in your Continental time zone.
“👩🦰 🏃 sometimes says he is ‘post limerent’, meaning not just over most recent L.E. but believes he won’t fall limerent for anyone else now. “
I don’t quite understand how 👩🦰 🏃 (a helpless romantic) could go on and on talking about LO2 and LO4 without tiredness. Once my LEs were over, I lost energy, like a flattened tire, to talk about them in whatever light. In my latest LE, it was primarily a fantasy, 👽 was an Ashley-like sensor, a catalyst for dealing with my life-time cptsd, freshly triggered by Dad’s death and Mom’s arrival. Then I fell into LE. (prior 8 moths after Glimmer was very peaceful, my rational mind and willpower were sounding, no emotional ups and downs). Once in LE, you know the rest stages – the same with every other limerent here.
“It sort of ties with your some of your positions about limerence as ‘mirror to self’, in that the reason he gives for getting to post-lim is having resolved the internal psychology behind his two big LEs.”
Yeap, it’s the same for me. I got my cptsd resolved mostly through my own awakened Phantom 🫥, first projected onto 👽 but then taken back gradually via my monologues in 6 years. For the last bits of leftover LE splinters, I fortunately got totally unexpected external help, in an area that I was even unaware of needing “a hand”. It turned out to be more powerful than the 🫥 empowered by my own imaginations and envisions.
Now I know it’s indeed true, that everyone, no matter how strong or mature, desires/needs, consciously or unconsciously, some sort of external VALIDATION(s) (ideally, first given during one’s forming ages). If the most needed validation is truthfully given voluntarily and lovingly, then the receiver could transform to a renewed, secure, loving person beyond all his or her previous expectations and imaginations. And there is NO turning back — the psychological hole is filled by both external and internal forces….
“If a person is over one LO but still vulnerable to a new glimmer and LE, that’s different to the above.”
Yes. But it depends on how this LE is resolved: naturally worn off or limerent’s own psychological issues got resolved. In the former without an “individuation” process, a new LE will most likely take place again, like some of serial limerents here; in latter, probably not, e.g. 👩🦰 🏃 & ❄️.
“Sometimes I guess we don’t know which category we’re in.”
Very true. I’m freshly out of LE, so I can’t say which category I’m 100% in yet; but I feel and think that mostly likely I won’t slip into another LE again. I’ll make sure that my next romantic interest won’t turn to a L🅾️, but a 🅱️🅿️ — Beloved Person. ❤️ : 4 -7 types of Greek love combined, WITHOUT Mania.
@Norma Desmond.
If you’re not actually having a physical affair or an emotional affair with your LO, your limerence episode is a fantasy, and this fantasy is taking place entirely inside your own head. Other people, including your LO, don’t have access to what’s going on inside your own head. And even if other people did have access to your private thoughts, they’d probably dismiss/misunderstand most of them anyway.
For some reason, you want validation from your LO. That’s why you’re upset by his opinions. That’s why you’re bothered by his bad temper. If he were just a friend and not an LO, you would feel far less concerned about his opinions and about his bad temper.
There are “lively debates” that are vicious and “lively debates” that are playful. All the gay men I know are playful. Most of the straight men I know are playful. If you feel your LO is personally attacking you or trying to erode your self-esteem, that’s likely a sign of unhealthy obsession on your part. You’re projecting your insecurities onto someone else. It’s obsession that’s making you feel constantly wounded to the core. It’s obsession that’s making you overthink things. It’s obsession that’s making you care about what characteristics your LO may or may not possess. Here’s the deal: your LO is a separate person, with his own thoughts. He isn’t Norma Desmond 2.0, and he has no wish to become Norma Desmond 2.0.
In reality, if you’re a limerent, you want to merge with your LO. You desperately want to know how your LO feels about you. That’s what all your rumination and hurt feelings are about. You want someone to meet YOUR emotional needs…
In other words, you are absolutely hooked on securing some kind of validation from this man. But guess what? Nobody else is. Nobody else cares. Straight men don’t want his validation. Other women apart from you don’t want his validation. His gay friends and gay romantic interests probably don’t care about his high regard – they have a much more relaxed relationship to him than you do. You are probably the sole human being alive who “walks on eggshells” around him.
The question you want to ask yourself is this: why is this man’s validation so important to you? What would it mean about you if he validated you in the way you wanted? Would it mean you are seen? Would it mean you are heard? Would it mean you’re suddenly worthy of love and attention? Do you think he’s your soul mate? If he really is your soul mate, how come he never acts like your soul mate?
I say the next bit with love. Imagine how horrible it must be right now to be in your LO’s shoes – the poor man must feel like he can’t breathe when he’s around you. Your behaviour to him probably feels cloying, controlling, and weirdly possessive. No wonder he snaps at you when you keep ignoring his boundaries.
Sammy, Norma
I believe it is exactly *because* of the reasons Sammy gave in the first paragraph (a fantasy script, playing on repeat loop, that only we know about), that Norma (or any limerent) craves validation from their LO in any way they can get it. Because we can’t ever get ‘the big validation’ (of the script), we just look for crumbs of validation from LO in any form we can.
The part about Norma’s situation that I’ve been puzzling at is this next bit. Nearly always, under everything else in limerence is the pair-bonding desire. When it is a straight person limerent for an openly gay person, (or vice versa), then the limerent must know they won’t ever pair bond with the LO. It is like an instant death of hope because there can be no hope to begin with. So how can limerence be ignited there? What am I missing, Sammy, cos’ I feel pretty sure I’m missing something?
@LaR.
Oh dear. I see I shall have to add nuance to the conversation, otherwise people might assume I’m a nasty person. You know, I am a very nasty person a la femme fatale Karen Walker. But we mustn’t let word get out. In showbiz, reputation is everything… 🤣😉🙄
I like to let people believe that I’ve only had one straight LO. I can’t tell people I’ve had, like, four or five, one after the one, in a series of transferences so rapid that I ended up in hospital (probably from sheer dizziness). If people know the truth, they might think I’m non-monogamous in my fantasy life. And I can’t have people thinking I’m non-monogamous in my fantasy life. Reputation, reputation. 😜
Actually, since we’re on the topic, I like imagining my straight male LOs in limerent episodes with each other, but that’s a rabbit hole none of us need to go down. That’s a little too much decadence. Let’s just say the human imagination is very inventive. 🤣
I’ve also had gay male LOs. Quite a few of those. But they’re a totally different kettle of fish to straight male LOs, because there’s more authenticity in the relationship due to both parties being aware of (and accepting of) each other’s sexual orientations. With two gay men, there’s a lot less pretending and lying and denial involved. There’s also far less fear/anxiety in the overall mix.
Let’s just stick to straight male LOs for the time being, since they’re the ones where there’s always a condition of “no romantic hope whatsoever” but still, somehow, addiction manages to take root. 🙂
My first straight male LO, the most important straight male LO, “the one LO to rule them all” – what was it about him? Um, I just think it was his looks. He was gorgeous like a girl – long legs, amazing eyelashes. The image I have of him to this day is of a smirking fourteen-year-old boy. (I was fourteen, too). I guess I just “imprinted” on him. He was a flirt as well. He flirted with me, but he flirted with everyone. I didn’t even know what flirting was at the time. But he was apparently very good at this whole “flirting thang”. 🙄😜
The four straight male LOs that followed – I feel they were just vessels to carry the feelings inspired by my original LO. (Had to move on pretty quick from him. He married at 20. But then we renewed acquaintances over Facebook at 27, due to an impending school reunion, and the renewed contact was disastrous for my mental health. (Oh, so you’re alive then? Oh, so your wife looks like a supermodel? Oh, so you look like a supermodel too?) 🤣🤣🤣
The second straight male LO – I don’t think I was looking consciously for validation from him, or vice versa. But maybe that’s what was happening on a subliminal level. He liked my writing; I liked his go-cart scars. Really, he just gave me one hit of euphoria, and my brain was like: “This is great. I’d do anything to keep feeling euphoric.” He seemed like a really deep and warm person in the beginning. But, after five years of friendship, he stopped showing those qualities. He became depressingly shallow. I wondered if he faked who he was in the early days of our friendship, or if my own mind just deceived me.
The other straight male LOs. One was very physically affectionate, and that was extremely nice. (I have nothing bad to say about him.
I still think he’s great. He’s married to a great woman and together they have about a hundred sprogs). One was a co-worker who had the same religious background as me, so I felt we had something in common. I must have been very lonely at that point in my life. And one engaged me in an authentic friendship that quickly imploded, because I’d never encountered anyone that authentic before, and all my own “phoniness” came bubbling to the surface… 😲
Mr Authentic is arguably the only straight male LO who didn’t lead me on in some way because he enjoyed the attention. He noticed my lovesickness for him. He was quite frankly disgusted by my lovesickness for him. He was rude to me as we tried to sort things out. Yet, to his credit, he still wanted a real bond with me – minus the component of lovesickness. He thought I could get over the lovesickness on some sort of reasonable schedule while still being his friend. (Hint: I couldn’t. I hit some of my lowest lows with him).
The other males in the group were indifferent to me – too indifferent to bother talking through any misunderstandings. This included my original “super LO”. Or they were intentionally or unintentionally playing games (maybe due to naivety or a sincere desire to hang onto a genuinely valued friendship).
I was never openly gay around any of my straight male LOs. It was through my attraction to them that I slowly discovered that there was something “different” about my sexual make-up. I didn’t mislead anyone on purpose. I just wasn’t fully aware of my own feelings yet and I wasn’t aware of the (generally negative) meaning that mainstream culture might assign those feelings. 🤔
Regarding pair-bonding: once someone, i.e. an LO, has effectively triggered that pair-bonding drive in one’s nervous system, it’s really hard to shut down that “desire to pair-bond with LO only”. This is why limerence is really dangerous – it’s really messy to trigger and/or be triggered by people who aren’t available for pair-bonding. It seems that human beings pair-bond on a nervous-system level. It’s not just a meeting of minds or a meeting of hearts. It’s a meeting of nervous systems. (Sound horribly unromantic I know). 🤣🤣😁
In answer to your question, maybe straight men ignited limerence in me multiple times because I didn’t understand my own sexuality, and I didn’t understand how my sexuality might be in any way different to another male’s. (I assumed I was “normal”. I had no reason to believe I was “not normal”. I had zero sexual experience at the time I become infatuated with five different straight males).
A straight girl appeared to develop limerence for me in high school. I don’t know what triggered her, other than her mistaken belief that i was actually interested in her first!!! (She was going off body language, it would seem, except she completely misread mine). 🙂
One of my straight male friends was very excited about the idea of this young woman and me being together. He thought I was a stud or a dark horse or some amazing flirt due to my ability to attract so effortlessly such a high-value woman. (The girl in question was gorgeous).
I was less-than-impressed. I felt like taking my mate aside and saying to him: “No offence, bro. But if you like her so much, maybe you should ask her out on a date? You’re clearly more invested in this ‘union’ than I am. There’s normal empathy. And then there’s … whatever it is you’re doing?” (He was probably just really happy for me in a totally misguided way. He and I had been friends for years prior to that. Maybe he wanted an invite to our wedding?) 🤣🙄
Long short story: sometimes people might give off the wrong romantic signals (or misread signals) because they’re still in the process of learning about their own feelings and desires. That might be the element of limerence that you’re missing, LaR. 🙂
Thanks for the reply Sammy. It has definitely helped me learn more about your limerent experiences.
I didn’t read anything nasty whatsoever in your first message.
So do you think – even for people who are fully knowing and comfortable about their sexuality (whatever it is), the pair-bonding drive could still be triggered by someone who isn’t an option (eg a straight person fancies a gay person) and then – even though they know pair bonding is not an option – limerence still develops? They’ll still go seeking all the other forms of validation that the LO can give?
Evidence on LwL says the answer is yes. Yours and Norma’s are far from the only examples of it, when we look back.
I was just trying to resolve the contradiction – if the prospect of pair bonding isn’t the driver, *what is*? I can sort of get it in your own case if you weren’t yet fully aware of or ‘out’ about your sexuality. In Norma’s case it is opposite to you – straight limerent gets gay LO, so I wondered how it changes that way round.
@LaR.
“Long short story” should have read “long story short”. 🙂
But all my posts are … long short stories. So maybe the Freudian slip is apt. 🤣
If pair-bonding is really about reproduction, then in my old age I can sort of see why male homosexuality is a “tragic adaptation” and not something that’s evolved for the good of the species. Some gay men have the most exquisite looks, which to me means they must have incredible genes (in order to incarnate those kinds of looks). It’s sort of like: “Hey, if anyone should be making babies, it’s you. You don’t even need to chase chicks. The women will come to you.” 🙂
But I think a lot of gay males steer clear of any heterosexual potential in themselves because they’re still traumatised by the horrifying gender conflict they saw unfold between their parents.
Sometimes, beauty is not enough. People need to feel safe around prospective romantic partners for a relationship to blossom. Gay males generally don’t feel all that safe around females, (in an erotic context), because they can’t trust females to behave respectfully. My mother is the living definition of “emotionally dysregulated”.
Straight men often respond with violence to female acting-out, i.e. domestic violence, whereas gay men have no choice but to withdraw from contact with poorly-behaving females altogether. I really think heterosexual women need to sit down and think long and hard about the way they treat the opposite sex. Because a lot of feminine behaviour repels both other women and less-bumptious members of the opposite sex. A lot of men are deeply afraid of women.
As a gay male, I’ve had a lot of experience of women not respecting my boundaries, starting of course with my mother. And I don’t want to spend my life explaining what is or isn’t appropriate to another adult – constant defence of perfectly ordinary human boundaries is exhausting. I think if women want certain types of men in their life, i.e. the nice men, women should just learn to behave better. 🤔
On a different note, falling in love with a fellow gay male in my early forties – what I’m doing at the moment – has purged the last few lingering traces of self-loathing from my personality. By seeing the beauty in him, I can see the beauty in myself. My love for him helps me understand that gay males aren’t inherently undeserving of love. This is one of the upsides of romantic love: falling in love can foster self-acceptance in people who struggle with self-acceptance. 😊
@LaR
“So do you think – even for people who are fully knowing and comfortable about their sexuality (whatever it is), the pair-bonding drive could still be triggered by someone who isn’t an option (eg a straight person fancies a gay person) and then – even though they know pair bonding is not an option – limerence still develops? They’ll still go seeking all the other forms of validation that the LO can give?”
You know, my dear man, you really shouldn’t ask me questions, because I might be tempted to answer at least a few of them… 🤣
You ask an extremely interesting question. And there is more than one plausible answer:
One answer is that maybe the pair-bonding drive in human beings is completely separate from the sexuality drive in human beings, and this is why so much genuine confusion can arise between well-meaning and clearly-communicating people with incompatible sexual orientations.
Some people think romantic love is a co-option of mother-ijnfant bonding mechanisms, and mother-infant bonding mechanisms clearly don’t discriminate by gender. (Mothers have to bond on a deep affectional level with children of both the same sex and the opposite sex).
Another answer is that male homosexuality isn’t a true sexual orientation. The only true sexual orientation (for both males and females) is heterosexuality. Reproductive sexuality is the one relentless rule of nature, and only heterosexuality has the potential to be reproductive sexuality. Male homosexuality only exists because it is a natural-but-extremely-minor subordinate part of heterosexuality. It’s as if gay men simply specialise in something that naturally occurs on the fringes of heterosexuality anyway.
A third answer, which like the second answer also derives from the work of Camille Paglia, is that all human men and all human women have a “hormonal identity” that they can’t deny, and maybe this “hormonal identity” unconsciously sends signals to the opposite sex. For example, there are many cases of lesbians who “fall in love” only with women, but who experience lust for men in midlife. It’s almost as if these women, despite their own clearly-stated preferences, can’t deny the fact their female body (i.e. a woman’s body) cries out for union with a male body (i.e. a man’s body).
This last explanation raises a really interesting question – are human beings really in control of their desires? Can human beings really choose their identities e.g. gay or lesbian? Or will someday a “natural hormonal identity”, i.e. as man or woman, assert itself?
In other words, do all biological males eventually turn into men, hormonally speaking, and do all biological females eventually turn into women, hormonally speaking? Is there a basic hormonal destiny that can’t be avoided? If the answer to the last question is yes, it would make sense for gay males to trigger limerence in straight girls, and for straight males to arouse interest in lesbians because the POTENTIAL for successful mating is always there… Nature cares about potential, and nature is behind all limerence.
I was reading the work of some doctor who helped gay men make sense of their (gay) sexuality. His work was very controversial, because he didn’t espouse the “born this way” theory. He once joked that “gay males seem to see colours brighter than straight men do”. That made me laugh. Why do gay males see colours brighter? Is it because of the artistic gene that gay males so often inherit? Or is it because all the doctor’s gay male clients were (unbeknownst to the doctor) in an active state of limerence, and the limerence was altering the clients’ experience of reality? 🤣🙄😜
If you want an informal quick opinion, I’d say the average unsuspecting limerent first just falls madly in love with whoever happens to give them a drug-like high (that has been my own experience) and asks questions about sexual orientation later (perhaps when the process of attachment isn’t going as swimmingly as desired). 🙂
@Norma Desmond.
I think my comment to you may have sounded a little harsh.
Let me clarify…
Maybe, outside of limerence, you’re a very confident and contented person. Maybe, outside of limerence, you’re a very insecure person. It doesn’t really matter. Unrequited limerence is going to make you feel like you’re a broken person who isn’t good enough…
It’s unwise to pressure your LO – however subtly – to give you the feeling of completeness you’re looking for. Because nobody can actually complete you from the outside. You need to find that sense of completeness deep within yourself. Completeness is a gift you give yourself. It’s not something you find in another person. 🙂
People on Reddit who have been (unwilling) LOs say they didn’t enjoy the experience, because “no amount of reassurance” (provided to the limerent party) was ever enough. That’s what addiction looks like. Addiction will turn you into a person you won’t recognise i.e. someone who is needy and grasping and unhappy.
It’s important to realise that the overwhelming majority of the negative feelings you have are being generated by the addiction itself. If you overcome the addiction, you’ll naturally no longer experience many of the negative feelings if that’s not the person you are. It’s ironic – the drive to pair-bond (a good thing) can make one feel terrible.
I don’t know if your LO is enjoying some kind of validation from your feelings for him. But everything becomes a lot easier if/when you can move past addiction. All of your relationships will feel a lot lighter and cleaner when they’re not contaminated by hidden desire.
Try to think of limerence as some awful trick your brain has played on you – an awful trick that will skew most of your perceptions for a while. Be patient with yourself. Your nervous system is currently dysregulated. It will take time for things to get back to normal. 🙂
LaR,
“What am I missing, Sammy, cos’ I feel pretty sure I’m missing something?”
I don’t want to speak for Norma, but she may be seeking a limerence friendship. I think I’ve had maybe a handful of them in my life. The French call them romantic friendships. There wasn’t a sexual component to them and neither side wanted there to be, but they had the intensity of a romance. If you watch the series “Platonic” on AppleTV, Rose Byrne and Seth Rogan have a romantic friendship. So much so that her husband’s work colleagues jokingly call Rogan her boyfriend. They don’t get it. He’s not. But they are very tight in a way other people don’t understand.
LaR,
“What am I missing, Sammy, cos’ I feel pretty sure I’m missing something?”
Or maybe it’s just that limerence really cares nothing about the LO, it’s all about us? We don’t care who the LO is or who they like (boys, girls, other)… They’re only an object after all? There’s some provocative thoughts for you.
Would a gay LO be any different for me than one who is in other ways unavailable (taken or a 1000 km away)? Or what about women who are past their child-bearing years and still fall limerent for someone? Perhaps it doesn’t have much to do with – a realistic – reproduction drive. Although I do think it is somehow primal who we fall for, perhaps still biological or at least hormonal and neurological, though I would lean on Dr L’s expertise here.
I dare to disagree with Sammy though that the LO is “sending something hormonal out” to the limerent. As above, I think limerence is all about the limerent and what they find attractive. The limerent will be happy to fill the LO with all kinds of desirable qualities that the LO doesn’t in fact have (maybe even a “hormonal pull”).
Thanks to everyone who is trying to help.
I have to admit that I still don’t understand many things.
I was married for 20 years, had three children, now adults, and am well past child-bearing. I was not looking for a partner; I don’t want one.
I have no idea why I suddenly developed an obsession with LO. I have no hope of a romance. All I know is that, when I am with him, I feel more alive than I have ever felt.
Can “Platonic Friendship” in its original, pure form survive in reality, without any assumptions based on realistic data?
Are there still idealistic, soulful “lunatics” existing today’s practical world?
Limerence with anything/anyone is involuntary; genuine friendship in any form is by choice…
hi @norma
re: space LO takes up in head. Yes to that. Me too. Mine is like…he’s sometimes taking up my entire head, and I am living in the broom closet with all my other belongings, and all my other thoughts shoved in on top. Totally get that.
re: coping strategies
yeah…it might be something to consider…because if LO is eliciting these positive things for you (meaning, that you feel better around him…) i am going to posit that maybe that could happen around others…with other things…in your life, norma…
i know that if it did, it would be a pale candle compared to lo’s sun. i know that from my own life. but, at a certain point, it could lead you to understand that all along, it is YOU, norma, that you were wanting to bring life to. the real norma, the real, powerful, heart and mind that is in there.
i am not a doctor, nowhere near it, just a person with her own serious health and mental challenges…but i can tell you that if you have felt better at certain points, around lo, that it is *possible* for you to feel better, in general.
i encourage you to think about some coping plans…and if you want, to share them here. i love to cheer people on, especially as they do things that feel a bit out of their comfort zone…and i would happily support you if you dipped your norma toes into some things that lit you up, even just a little.
i am trying to do the same in my own life, to come a bit, carefully, out of my shell. it’s hard. but, i am trying and the alternative, staying in my protective crouch, is not an option for The Rest of My Time Here.
with care, and i hope you’re ok today….and that your new little pet is acclimating…how are they doing btw?
csc
To Sammy:
I have asked myself repeatedly, “If LO gives me approval, what do I actually HAVE?” And the answer of course is nothing. I have nothing.
So it’s not as if I don’t understand this; it’s just that it doesn’t seem to help.
@Norma
I mean, feeling alive is a big deal. If I find someone that makes me feel alive, be they romantic or not, you better believe I am not going to want to let them go. I will want them in my life in some way.
So, that statement makes me curious. My question now is…alive how? What does that mean to you…feeling alive…specifically….?
csc
To CSC:
I am in chronic poor health. I am tired and in lots of pain. When I am with LO, my symptoms vanish temporarily.
@Norma
I see.
I’d like to ask you two more questions…
Are there other aspects of feeling alive that LO brings about for you, or is it just the aspect of feeling physically, better?
And…are there ANY (really, any!) other activities / situations where LO is NOT there, where you do not feel as physically unwell?
I understand if this is private and you’d rather not answer.
X csc
To CSC:
I am not sure I grasp the question exactly, so forgive me if I misunderstand. LO suits me on an intellectual level. He has an excellent vocabulary and I enjoy listening to him and conversing with him. He has a fancy house with a lot of antiques, and I enjoy it when he explains things about architecture and decorating. These are not subjects that I am well versed in, and I enjoy learning. I just learned what “kitchen elevations” are. Of course it flatters his ego that I find him so fascinating.
We had a great conversation about the fountains at the Place de la Concorde in Paris before he left on his trip. I had a fun story to tell about one of the statues, and I know this type of thing is right up his alley. So he listened with great interest, and I was thrilled to be able to share this story with someone who appreciates it.
I think he’s the most interesting man in the world.
Generally speaking, my symptoms become less when I am engaged in an interesting activity, but not always.
I don’t mind answering these questions. I am not very defensive.
@norma
He’s not the most interesting man in the world. he’s the most interesting man in YOUR world.
There are plenty of other interesting people out there. And it sounds like being around stimulating people is exciting for you (it is for me, too).
If one intelligent person finds you a good conversation partner, I guarantee you that others will.
Do you have a plan for when LO is gone?
When I decided to go NC, my plan involved feeling sad, yes, but it also involved making sure I was getting some of the same stimulus. I made sure I went out to exercise with others (something I had loved to do with LO). While it was not the high LO brought, it definitely helped distract me…and build some new connections, socially…it was, I guess, an ersatz version of being with LO. The best I could do.
If we cannot get LO, we have to find ways to move on with our lives. And, hopefully, with better habits than we started with…
Are there things he’s brought out in you that you might “keep”…even if he’s not there?
…for instance, seeking out cultural conversations, or maybe something to do with design? I don’t know. Those are just examples. 🙂
It might be worth thinking about. Maybe not right away, but as you are ready. It’s not a cure. But still might be worth thinking on.
Csc
To CSC:
I really don’t have a plan. I don’t spend enough time with LO that my days are going to be empty without him. The problem is the space he takes up in my head.
I guess I should start giving some thoughts to coping strategies.
JMMO,
Re morning anxiety coping as discussed in the week.
These ideas aren’t exactly revolutionary but I think they’re the sort of help that’s useful through the tough bits:
1. Get a bit prepared for the day, the night before (however that looks – might be as simple as choosing clothes, shower or bath)
2. Get the evening before routine right – to be in state for relaxed sleep – again, however that looks for you. Plan enough hours for sleep.
3. Try and have routine about timings of things in days. I can easily get unroutined between early starts and late starts, going to work or wfh etc and get indecisive about it. Decide these things ahead of the day and keep as consistent as possible
4. (For me) setting the alarm in time for cup of tea and reading a book for a while before really moving is helpful …
5. … but also time limiting that ‘lazing’ bit and not exceeding it (30 mins is good for me). Longer is not good – causes moping and increases anxiety
6. Set a definite first task to do in the day. Can be pretty mundane – like I might pick watering my plants or preparing lunch or something.
7. Eat a decent breakfast
8. Also set a first task at work – try and have a worked-out focus for the first hour or so (will avoid a certain someone infiltrating thoughts if a clear focus)
9. If LO will or may feature in your day, allocate a few minutes to picture yourself coping, and how that looks. How will you be? What will you say? It can’t always be controlled but trying to think it through a little doesn’t hurt
10. Listen to music or radio when commuting – less empty space for thought-noise, songs or news or whatever are then at least competing with LO for brain bandwith
11. Limit caffeine either early or late in the day – for me the answer is ‘enough but not too much’ – likewise limit or temporarily cut out alcohol until the mood improves.
12. Think carefully about a balance between what SO may need from you in the early part of the day, and what you need yourself. Tell SO what you need and why, and negotiate it.
Exercise is an obvious one too but it sounds like you have that in hand. As ‘not a morning person’, I don’t set myself up to exercise too early in the day as it is setting myself up to fail. I exercise more at lunch or after work. When I’m at my strongest I can do early morning exercise. But not since the LE started.
There is something you can find online in many places called “Progressive Muscle Relaxation”. Try that – it has been revolutionary for me at times. Most good ones are about 15-20 minutes long. Or mindfulness meditation exercises like “body scan”.
Not all of that will work for you, but think what could. If you’ve got any for me, or ones you think I’ve missed, hit me back.
The more of the above list I do, and the more regularly I do it, the more it helps. I am not at all saying I am perfect at doing all of it all the time. It is constant work in progress and I need to do it more.
Have a nice chilled weekend and annual leave. You have earned it 🙂
Hi LaR
Wow! Thank you SO much. What a fantastic set of ideas. I will certainly try them. I’ve taken screenshots of your post, so will pick a couple out to start with. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to send me that.
How are you doing, mate? I hope that you are going to get some rest this weekend (assuming you’re in the UK: I think you are?). You deserve it too.
Thanks again for all the ways you support me. I hope I can offer you at least some in return.
Best wishes
Jmmo
Trifles
“The limerent will be happy to fill the LO with all kinds of desirable qualities that the LO doesn’t in fact have (maybe even a “hormonal pull”)”
I think we limerents do fill in a lot of blanks. For me, personally, to become limerent, the LO had to show signs of interest. And usually pretty obvious signs. (One LO was an FWB, so he was interested enough to hook up. Is that a hormonal pull?) So some of the blanks are filled in by my LOs. I’m not dreaming up their interest, but it’s usually a lot less than mine. I don’t rock their world the way they do mine.
“Or what about women who are past their child-bearing years and still fall limerent for someone?”
I haven’t become limerent since going through menopause. I wonder if it has something to do with the decline in hormones. I had a strong crush recently — partnered and flirtatious/complimentary, my usual type — but after finally getting honest with myself that he wasn’t serious and only sport flirting (took about 3 weeks), I kind of want him to go away now. I’m hoping that’s a sign I’m getting better but maybe it’s the menopause … well, look at the words… “men” and “pause”! 😀
FWB. Marcia, you do keep me on my toes with abbreviations.
@Marcia
“but maybe it’s the menopause … well, look at the words… “men” and “pause”! 😀”
Lol – you are on FIRE! Thank you for giving me a good laugh.
@Trifles.
“I dare to disagree with Sammy though that the LO is “sending something hormonal out” to the limerent. As above, I think limerence is all about the limerent and what they find attractive. The limerent will be happy to fill the LO with all kinds of desirable qualities that the LO doesn’t in fact have (maybe even a “hormonal pull”).”
You’re a very brave woman to disagree with me, Trifles. It must be your INTP-ness at play. You know men hate that right? No wonder you struggle to nab the man you want! 🙂
No, what I actually meant was … human beings are biological organisms built to reproduce, and tension always exists (even if it’s at an extremely low level) between adult men and adult women. It doesn’t matter if a man identifies as gay or if a woman claims she only falls in love with other women. I’ve had many passing experiences of “low level mutual physical attraction” with women.
“Low level mutual physical attraction” doesn’t equal limerence. But it may plant the seed of obsession in the mind of somebody who is already vulnerable to limerence (and showing a physical and psychological readiness to mate). 😉
Some limerence may be caused by “ripeness” – one or both parties simply are at the right stage of their lives to mate, or to mate again, and the smallest signs from the other person may be taken as encouragement.
Limerence isn’t just about what the limerent finds attractive, because one can find people attractive without ever experiencing limerence. (E.g., non-limerents find prospective romantic partners attractive and don’t fall into obsession).
I also don’t think it’s true (at least not according to Tennov) that the limerent is filling the LO with all sorts of desirable qualities that LO doesn’t possess. Limerence is all about amplification. The limerent takes qualities the LO already has, and then magnifies/enhances them mentally. Limerence isn’t pure projection. Limerence is rooted in reality, otherwise limerence isn’t actually limerence.
In other words, the LO must (a) actually possess traits the limerent finds objectively attractive and (b) must feed into the infatuation somehow, even if this is just showing some early signs of interest that are then denied/retracted.
I don’t think my male LO was “sending something hormonal out” to me. I’m a fellow male. I think he was “sending something hormonal out” to the woman he married (and she to him). I was making a comment about the extreme rarity of mutual homolimerence. Mutual homolimerence is a rare phenomenon in my opinion because that deep hormonal pull (which is always present between a man and a woman) either isn’t present, or occurring at an extremely reduced level. That is to say, I find it much easier to understand limerence between a man and a woman who know each other only slightly … because, you know … babies. Men and women have a motive to “fall in love at first sight”. The potential for reproduction is the smoking gun. It’s harder to account for same-sex attraction.
Dr. David Perl has some interesting thoughts on limerence. He became limerent at 50 for a female colleague after a 20-minute conversation. The conversation was work-and-life-related, nothing personal. He and his wife had been married for twenty years at that point. They had a few marital problems, the same as every couple, but nothing serious. Did you get that? Twenty minutes of impersonal chitchat with an attractive woman and, bam, full-blown obsession for poor old David. A 20-minute conversation hijacked the circuitry in his brain completely.
Dr. Perl has the interesting theory (which has been mooted at LwL before): in interactions with the opposite sex, women routinely underestimate attraction and men routinely overestimate attraction. (Women are pessimists and men are optimists I guess?) Basically, in Dr. Perl’s view, if a man is friends with a woman, he wants to bed her. Straight men don’t do platonic friendships with women. This is why many people think men and women can’t be friends, and why it’s often seen as inappropriate for married people to pursue cross-sex friendships. 🤔
For reference, though, Perl is 65 and he admits that his daughter (aged 30) says she and her peers don’t share his view that men and women can’t be friends (because attraction and/or limerence always develops). So taking an extremely dim view on cross-sex friendships may be a cultural and/or generational thing. The younger generation seems to cope more easily with opposite-sex friends.
I know people (especially moralists and betrayed spouses and non-limerents in general) want to say infatuation happens because the limerent projects stuff onto the LO. People like this view because it puts responsibility back on the limerent, and absolves the LO of all blame. At last we have a “baddie” i.e. the limerent. This view isn’t bourne out by reality, however, and certainly not by my own lived experience.
Like all things in nature, addiction does not occur in a vacuum. Addiction cannot occur in a vacuum. The LO must feed into the delusion at some point, even if they have zero genuine sexual/romantic interest in the limerent. The sad truth is that many or even most LOs are not good people. At best, they have extremely poor personal boundaries, and these poor boundaries fuel false hope in the limerent.
Trifles, you are an adorable lady, and I like you, but you need to get your head out of the clouds. You may be an INTP, but you are not as logical as you think you are. Your arguments are plucky and well-meaning, but not well-founded. I actually think one of my male LOs was an INTP. It would explain his poor boundaries, his fuzzy thinking, his good intentions and his disastrous follow-through. He was sweet, but he caused me an almost unbearable level of pain with his sloppy approach to life. But thank you for piping up anyway. Always a pleasure! 😁
Sammy, “Your arguments are plucky and well-meaning, but not well-founded. (…) his fuzzy thinking, his good intentions and his disastrous follow-through. He was sweet, but he caused me an almost unbearable level of pain with his sloppy approach to life.”
Haha, you got me there. At least I had you fooled for a minute! You and most teachers/professors grading my essays.
Sammy
“(Women are pessimists and men are optimists I guess?)”
They’re just smarter. 😀
No, women are better at reading signs and signals and body language. They are better at telling the difference between someone being friendly and FRIENDLY.
“Straight men don’t do platonic friendships with women”
I think this is true. It’s too bad that their motivation has to be sexual to get a friendship going with a woman. That being said, not every guy friend a man has is dying of love for her. He just might be down for some NSA sex if she is.
In terms of the younger generations being able to handle opposite-sex friends … the younger generations are less sexual than older ones. They’ve done studies.
“You’re a very brave woman to disagree with me, Trifles. It must be your INTP-ness at play. You know men hate that right?”
Not all men hate it, Sammy. Personally, I love an INTP like Trifles.
Sammy,
Having said that … I do agree with you wholeheartedly on this:
“In other words, the LO must (a) actually possess traits the limerent finds objectively attractive and (b) must feed into the infatuation somehow, even if this is just showing some early signs of interest that are then denied/retracted.”
And with a qualification on this:
“Basically, in Dr. Perl’s view, if a man is friends with a woman, he wants to bed her. ”
It is true of *some* male female friendships, but not all / not the majority.
You and Trifles might both be right. The LO has to have the desired qualities in some proportion (your view); the limerent then amplifies those qualities by orders of magnitude (Trifles’ view).
And I for one agree with LaR’s consolidated view. I tend to oversimplify or exaggerate sometimes to make a point. (And then I get lazy about providing facts to support my view, like Sammy astutely noticed.)
But I agree that there is of course something in the LO that piques the limerent’s interest, and qualities that the limerent desires. And also that there is (usually) something in the LO’s behavior that the limerent at least reads as interest.
And ha, I love a man who loves the challenge of an INTP – I wouldn’t settle for anything less! 😉
Trifles,
(And then I get lazy about providing facts to support my view, like Sammy astutely noticed.)
Are you by any chance an “ideas person”?! I work with a whole bunch of those, the obvious one included. It needs the boring J people like me to see the best of the ideas through 😜!
Haha LaR, you caught me! I love me some fresh new ideas, the more revolutionary, the better. Nothing worse than the same old boring facts, repeated by everyone… 😜
“Lucky you” get to work with several of us! Now I’m even more curious as to what field you work in… I think we’ve ruled out law by now.
Yeah, you’re right, it’s not law!
Maybe I’ll drop you some hints on it at some point, but the problem is, once people know and start talking about it, it becomes really identifying, doesn’t it?!
MFF’s endless ‘NTP’ stream of new ideas is entertaining, thought-provoking and infuriating in equal measure!
🍨 & 🚜
I think it’s better to leave our realistic facts out of LwL as much as possible, to avoid pop-culture assumptions and biased assessments 🙄
Talking freely here about our old thoughts, new ideas, surfing or ebbing sentiments without realistic, labeling facts, is more authentic and liberating, don’t you agree? 😀
It’s “surging and ebbing”…
I think it’s Ok just to reveal of ourselves what we are comfortable to, and it differs from 👻to 👻. Like, you have told us where you live and the gist of what you do for work. You know my country but not where within it or what I do. To say those things at the moment, along with everything else I’ve said about me, narrows the field so much that I could be identified should anyone who knows me swing by.
I enjoy playing along with some of our ‘fake’ LwL identities a lot, as signified by the emojis, by Amoor’s in, etc etc. I would love it if I could tell my friends here like you and 🍧 more of my reality, but I go as far as I can. And I agree with you that much of it isn’t needed for the way we interact here.
🚜,
All those emojis names in Amoor Inn make me giggle and laugh anything I think about them… it’s so much fun to see nicknames that could represent one part of a LwLer’s personality in LwL. Envisioning and imagining can be fun as well powerful 😊
I’d love to know more about realistic you, but I understand most of us here is with a SO, or an active LO, thus can’t reveal your 🆔 . I did so much about myself because whatever I say could not affect anyone else’s life in my reality (if 👽 drops in, then let him hear my truth that can’t be uttered in front of him.)
But some Lwlers may assess/judge others with realistic facts, which most of us inevitably and unfairly do in reality. I try to catch myself in making any kind of assumptions, it’s untruthful. I’d rather encountering unknowns (than my assumptions) that could infinitely arose my curiosity.
Yeah, my religious community is so small that a few poorly judged details posted here, on the world wide web, somebody could swing by and make all the connections! And they don’t even have to know me IRL because I’m in other spaces on the Internet, too.
LaR, I by no means meant that you should reveal your occupation here. I just said that it piqued my curiosity. It can be fun to speculate! As you’ve seen, I personally err (heavily 🙈) on the side of caution when it comes to privacy. But everyone is free to reveal whatever they are comfortable with.
LwL Wall —
First, I confusedly encountered a Wall of pinned up posters…
Then, I trod blindly but cautiously among ghosts, hearing incomprehensible whispers, talks, and lamentation, without knowing what ailments I had…
After taken in by welcoming posters, I still reserved all my inner world, fearing to be hammered…
After a while, the random participation distracted me from the ongoing LE, which I had no intention to remove…
Then, more directionless chats led to some releases of other inner voices comprised of stories from the both world…
Gradually, the Wall expanded to a space for writing therapies, lifting up the descending spirit….
When other posts began conversing with mine, a life of the ghost truly launched… the Wall shifted to three dimensional…
When the first purple line appeared, the Wall began to spin and dance, growing and stretching to the open sky…
After another 365 Suns, the Wall transformed, with its sharp twists and mild turns, to a Tardis moving in time and space…
The Tardis took the body, mind and spirit above the sky, to play the chess of flowery lampposts…
However impossible, the long, earthen LE faded into faraway horizon, after several Unconscious tosses …
The buried life-time wounds healed, the unknown hole was filled up all by gustily dreams and magical envisions…
Now, if stepping out of the LwL Wall with a new ghost face, who am I?
Who am I❓❓
LwL Wall —
First, I confusedly encountered a Wall of pinned up posts…
Then, I trod blindly but cautiously among ghosts, hearing incomprehensible whispers, talks, discussions and lamentations, without knowing what ailments I had…
After taken in by welcoming posts, I still reserved all my inner world, fearing to be hammered…
After a while, the random participation distracted my mind from the ongoing LE, which I had no intention to remove…
Then, more directionless chats led to some releases of other inner voices, comprised of stories from the both world…
Gradually, the Wall became a space for writing therapies, lifting up my often descending spirit….
When other posts began conversing with mine, a life of a new ghost truly launched… the Wall shifted to three dimensional…
When the first purple line appeared, the Wall started to spin and dance, growing and stretching to the open sky…
After another 365 Suns, the Wall expanded, with its sharp twists and mild turns, to a Tardis moving in time and space…
The Tardis took the body, mind and spirit above the sky, to play the chess of flowery lampposts…
However impossible, the long, earthen LE faded into faraway horizon, after several Unconscious tosses …
The buried cptsd wounds healed, the unknown hole was filled, by unexpected gustily dreams and magical envisions…
Now, if stepping out of the LwL Wall with a new ghost face, who am I?
Who am I❓❓
🐦🔥
@Trifles.
My intention wasn’t to hurt your feelings. My intention was to point out that limerence is something involuntary that only happens/develops under certain conditions. Without those conditions, there is no limerence.
Limerents aren’t people who enjoy fantasising about certain archetypes of men and women just for the sheer fun of it. It’s not a case of: “Oh, I like me some Femme Fatale, some Damsel in Distress, and some Evil Enchantress.” It’s a case of: “I can’t get this one specific woman out of my head, who may embody X archetype, and it’s slowly killing me from the inside.” 🙂
Limerence prompts limerents to DEMAND reciprocation from the LO. (We’ve all read Mila’s truly boring and miserable posts). Some limerents may angrily confront their LOs, and ask why they’ve been led on. Limerence isn’t just some mushy fantasy one can enjoy in private. It’s not the romance novel you’ve all just been too lazy to write.
If limerence isn’t handled properly, and the LO isn’t actually interested, limerence can destroy people’s lives. It’s the limerent’s life that is usually destroyed, and not the LO’s – although the situation may prove highly embarrassing to the LO if the limerent loses control in public and decides to lash out (or, worse, the limerent tries to end their own life one or more times because they can’t live with the constant pain of longing).
I am very blessed to no longer be in an active state of limerence. I owe an immense debt of gratitude to the work of Dr. L, as do you all.
Snowphoenix, if you don’t know what limerence is, please stop wasting everybody’s time and explain your real motive for being in the coffeehouse. Your presence is confusing. 🙂
If people sometimes act like the thought police, they have good cause to act like the thought police. Limerence, handled badly, destroys lives. Literal lives are at stake. Limerence isn’t some big game and I apologise right now to the entire LwL community if I inadvertently gave people the wrong idea at some point.
Sober up, people. And show courtesy and consideration for your fellow readers at all times. I say the following with the upmost respect. Some readers seem hellbent on trivialising the seriousness of limerence. Some readers seem hellbent on making fun of other readers who have gone through a lot mentally and survived. This is utterly unacceptable behaviour. This represents the most disgusting immaturity and ignorance on the part of some readers, and I am furious that such disrespect is being shown to people who are suffering and/or people who have suffered.
There is a way to be fun-loving without degrading people. I feel Marcia and I understand that form of light-heartedness. And then there’s a way to be fun-loving that lacks kindness and empathy for other people.
Not everything is a joke, people. Please try to give the subject of limerence the seriousness it deserves. Please also respect other readers 100% of the time. LaR and Snowphoenix, try to leave the constant displays of snark at home. Your snarky tone is offensive in general, and upsetting to people who come here sincerely seeking help. Be sincere and be empathic.
In other news, I’m pleased to note Dr. L’s video “Why Them?” has hit 100k views. Ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner, people! 😉
@Sammy,
I come here to HELP myself by conversing with others and writing my purple prose after being inspired. I have succeeded in getting rid of my LE in 20 months, mostly by myself — my rationality, envision, imagination, and dreams, along with uncountable, invaluable “unsolicited” posts, including yours, intended or accidental. Thank you again!
Here is a coffee-house, not an echo chamber with specific topics. People experience limerence in different ways, different degrees, and different circumstances. Thus there have to be different methods and approaches to treat, reduce, and remove their respective LE symptoms. There is no one-size shoes to fit all.
You know well you don’t have to click open my posts, right? Or you can ask DrL to remove my existing posts if they bother you so much.
Sammy,
I don’t really like to get into arguments back and forth, but I do want to address things you’ve said there about me.
What are examples of these “constant displays of snark” from me that you have noticed?
It also appears you are trying to take moral high ground, when you are doling out the snark yourself. Read the last paragraph of your message to Trifles where you discuss her being INFP. Read your own words above: “We’ve all read Mila’s truly boring and miserable posts”. And then there’s your regular direct and indirect attacks on Snowphoenix. That is all snark to me. You could say it is snark dressed up as humour (and so could I about my reply to you on Sat), but sometimes it reads quite mean and bitter.
Countless LwL posters have told me they are grateful that I have great empathy and kindness towards their posts. I don’t believe for a second that the rest of this community would deem my tone as ‘offensive’ or ‘upsetting’ as you did.
As for trivialising anything – why is it that the kind of humour that you and Marcia use in this place is something you deem OK, but not the type of humour me and Snow use? And anyway, when and how did you get to be appointed as the person who deems which humour is OK (your own) and which not (others’)?
Nothing I do when I use humour trivialises limerence. I only really use the emojis with a handful of posters who I know for sure appreciate them.
Limerence has been anything but trivial for me to live through. Look back only two days, when I was trying to discuss limerence with you from an intellectual perspective with the soul goal of helping another named poster get more of a handle on her limerence. Look at the posts I made to imho on Friday, or to Jmmo on Saturday with ideas for coping with limerence-fuelled anxiety. Look at the list of ideas I sent DrL yesterday. On what planet is my tone ‘offensive’ or ‘upsetting’?
It seems you have attacked me without foundations because I sent one pithy comment in your direction that you don’t like.
@coffeehouse
An open offer to DrL or to any other reader of LwL – if I hear from anyone else that my ways here are upsetting, trivialising or offensive, I will give it more thought about how I ought to act round here.
„And then there’s a way to be fun-loving that lacks kindness and empathy for other people.“
Well, there’s a point we agree on, says boring Mila.
Mila,
You’re not boring, you’re fab. We can’t all be wrong. You do you.
It seems so incredibly ironic, him using those words about you in a message trying to tell other people to be kind and empathic.
Ah LaR, thank you, but don’t bother. Sammy cannot offend me.
Also, LaR, let me assure that certainly there’s nothing snarky or offensive about your posts, you are nothing but considerate and kind. Just in case you really doubted it!
I didn’t read Sammy’s latest message yet. And I won’t be reading the message just yet (because it’s long!) and because I am in the middle of some real life drama. That I am in because I am not fluent in expressing my feelings. I only read LaR’s message where he said that I was called an INFP – I take no offense in that. In fact, I wish I was more like that. Just like I took no offense in the previous messages. I know who I am by now, and I own it.
Like I once told LaR that he can do no harm by me, nothing Sammy can say will cause me any offense. Only for different reasons than with LaR. I’m slow to learn my lessons – and I probably still haven’t learned (!) to leave some posters’ messages alone. But I will try again.
Trifles,
real life drama? Hope it’s nothing really bad? Wish you all the best.
Mila, thank you for caring 🤗 No I think (hope) it’s just drama. Affairs of the heart.
Either that or I just managed to lose a wonderful new person – in record time(!) My head is still spinning from the abruptness of it all. I have hope he will come to his senses. If not, then that would mean he never had feelings in the first place. (And all signs point in the opposite direction.)
Hi All,
Jumping in at this point because the recent back-and-forths have spiralled a bit.
Just a reminder about commenting philosophy here: I’m very permissive about everyone expressing their own feelings and experience of limerence in their own words.
I think that helps everyone learn about the plurality of opinions out there.
What is more troublesome is when this crosses over to critiquing *other posters*. That includes tone policing and attributing motives to others – because you don’t actually know what’s going on in their heads.
Yeah, sure, trolls occasionally pop up and I appreciate having them flagged to me so I can ban them, but I agree with the sentiment that if other people’s posts bother you it’s probably better just to skip them (especially in the coffeehouse which is the most open forum of all).
For clarity: I sincerely appreciate all the posters who are caught up in this latest discussion, and their many contributions to the site. Sometimes banter between individuals who know each other is fine between them but reads as rude or disrespectful to outsiders. Sometimes, personalities will clash. I consider all of that a normal part of social life.
For now: maybe let’s take a break from analysing each other and just focus on life and limerence.
Finally: Sammy, I’m sorry to hear about your Dad’s diagnosis. And thanks for flagging the 100K milestone 🙂 !
Trifles,
„I have hope he will come to his senses. If not, then that would mean he never had feelings in the first place“
Trifles forgive me, but that sounds a bit too much giving him full and alone responsibility for your budding relationship, especially because initially you said it was caused by you not expressing your feelings well?
Of course I know nothing of the story… might be completely on the wrong track, but why not express your feelings properly now and see what happens, instead of waiting for him to sort it all and maybe expecting him to read your mind?…
Forgive me if I‘m barking up the wrong tree (if this expression fits)!
Mila, I realize I didn’t express myself well – again! Exactly what got me in this mess in the first place…
What I meant by him coming to his senses (I wrote to quickly and didn’t explain myself), is that I wish he would read my messages and answer my call. The call I’ve tried to make to apologize for my poor wording and to explain myself and my feelings.
That if he won’t (eventually) even hear me out, it would mean that he must not have cared much at all. But I have the hunch that it is the opposite – that he does care and that it is the reason why he is so hurt due to a misunderstanding (me not expressing myself clearly, leaving possibilities for misinterpretation that I saw when I reread my message. 🙈 Which was sent in completely good faith).
Trifles,
I see, I‘m sorry!
Words are so treacherous and easy to say/write without thinking beforehand.
Maybe he‘s angry or sad now and takes a while to gather himself, and eventually will read your messages.
But could also be that he‘s busy since it’s Monday, and cannot read texts or answer calls, and that’s why he‘s silent.
Trifles,
To piggy back on what Mila said, sometimes when I leave things a while it’s because they *do* really matter, and I only want to deal with it when my head is fully there to think it through. I hope for you that’s what’s going on here.
🚜,
[ “Basically, in Dr. Perl’s view, if a man is friends with a woman, he wants to bed her. ”
It is true of *some* male female friendships, but not all / not the majority.]
On this, you can speak just for yourself; we simply don’t know authentic statistics on this. Myself leans on “the majority but not all”. My argument comes from:
1. On this heavy-morality issue, some men will not tell his truth; you can trust ONLY gay men.
2. Keep in mind the law of Impermanence. At some points of a man’s life, he may truly want to befriend a valued woman without the ultimate goal of bedding her. But on some other times, his changed circumstances may bring him different/needed motives to befriend women.
I’m not trying to beat you up (as a popular debate goal), just intrigued by this heavy psychological and physiological issue.
Now my question is: what about women? What are motivations for women to befriend men? just for pure friendship or potential more? Can she sustain the boundary without Glimmer?
Here is a depressing quote: “”A woman can become a man’s friend only in the following stages – first an acquaintance, next a mistress, and only then a friend.” Are women so doomed?
By the way, when I’m chitchatting here, I only have a concept of “you’re a man, or a woman, a gay, or lesbian”… I can’t feel or sense your gender with 5 senses totally deprived. In a way, I can speak even more freely, without gender restrictions or biases. Here only thoughts dialogue with thoughts, sentiments meet sentiments, souls encounter souls…. No physical beings involved; we only know each other partially (but substantially in some aspects), except Dr L.
Well, I’ve had plenty of male friends throughout my life who haven’t tried to bed me….I don’t know what was in their heads most of the time, but I didn’t always have a SO. I know one was too shy to say anything. There were others who—I don’t know for sure, but a friend whispered something in my ear. But most of the time, we bonded over something like TV shows or computers or theology. I don’t care what gender/sex my friend is; it’s just good to have somebody to talk to. And yes, sometimes I’ll get a crush on my friend. There are the ones who I tried to ask out but they said no. There are the ones who flirted with me. And there are the ones who were never anything but platonic; that’s most of them.
SL 📕 ,
Your stories seem to prove LaR’s observation/conclusion. You’re lucky to have male friends and accompanies just to talk with.
It’s not always easy to make equal friends with opposite sex in different cultures (i.e Macho culture) and personal circumstances.
Correction: Every guy friend a woman has
Jeff Beck: Hi Ho Silver Lining (1967):
https://youtu.be/rb-bKKRl_hw?feature=shared
For any limerent who ever thought THEY were the silver lining.
Stranglers, Always the Sun:
https://youtu.be/cYQTL-ws6p4?feature=shared
csc
Thanks as ever for your words and your perspective. It’s amazing how you seem to pinpoint my feelings exactly, and it’s so comforting.
Thank you for your friendship and support. I hope I can offer the same to you.
I’ve also been meaning to tell you for a while how much I love the Fenna videos. So meaningful and accurate from someone who has been there and knows. Thank you for pointing me to her 😊
Jmmo x
csc
☝🏻
And So Many Are Dear
Diana Marie Delgado
When you’re called,
you go, Sesshu says.
But I’m afraid
I won’t go far enough
to stop them
even though
people are dying.
And even though
people are dying,
I remain
Chicana, a woman
who won’t keep
this mouth,
or the other, shut.
So should I
get out of bed
to write?
Does what I
write matter?
Sesshu says: reread
Oscar Zeta Acosta’s
The Revolt of the Cockroach People.
Then I remember:
when you’re
called,
you go.
******
A Calling
In some twinkling nights
or moonless dawns,
my eyelids heavily shut
my mouth dropped
my limps sunk
my brain mostly dimmed
but my chest heard a calling
from the sleepless LwL ”ghost” land, where
words and emojis can loudly whisper
sing, and dance to
soothe aching hearts
lift descending spirits
spring budding souls
slow down or stop wrong steps
Infuse eclectic helping hands together
alter courses of personal journeys
onward.
Then, I flipped, flapped my red feather.
🐦🔥
A Calling
In some twinkling nights
or moonless dawns,
my eyelids heavily shut
my mouth dropped
my limps sunk
my brain dimmed
but my chest heard a calling
from the sleepless LwL ”ghost” land, where
words and emojis can loudly whisper
sing, and dance to
soothe aching hearts
lift descending spirits
spring budding souls
slow down or stop wrong steps
infuse eclectic helping hands, and
alter courses of personal journeys
onward.
Then, I opened my eyes
flipped, flapped my red feather.
🐦🔥
A Calling
In some twinkling nights
or moonless dawns,
my eyelids heavily shut
my mouth dropped
my limps sunk
my brain dimmed
but my chest heard a calling
from the sleepless LwL ”ghost” land, where
words and emojis can loudly whisper
sing, or dance to
soothe aching hearts
lift descending spirits
spring budding souls
slow down or stop wrong steps
infuse eclectic helping hands, and
alter courses of personal journeys
onward.
Then, I opened my eyes
flipped, flapped my red wings.
🐦🔥
Off-topic: I just watched Meet The Press, where President Trump was being interviewed. He told host Kristin Welker that he “doesn’t know” if he’s supposed to uphold the Constitution.
For anyone unfamiliar, it’s right there in the Oath of Office. Which he has taken. Twice.
MJ my brother
I need your advice. Today’s sermon was based on Matthew 5:8 “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.”
Is it wrong for me to pray to God for Him to look over and protect LO and her daughter? Is my limerence wicked? And a sickness in my heart? The pastor said what comes out of our mouths is a reflection of whats in our hearts. That everything in life is competing for the price of our attention. That we have to consider what we pay our attention to. Is my prayers for LO and her daughter wrong?
I am not MJ and perhaps my comments are unwelcome.
How could offering loving kindness to anyone, ever be wrong?
Why would limerence be wicked? Even though my limerence came unbidden and unwanted, LO has told me that I have been a tremendous positive influence in his life. When you give love, even if it’s awkward and perhaps unwanted, how could that be a bad thing, assuming you’re respecting the other person’s boundaries?
If you’re sending love to LO and her daughter through prayer, I don’t see a downside.
I don’t know your whole story, and if I misunderstood, I apologize.
🥃: it’s NOT wrong, wicked, or sick; Pray inside of you as much as you wish!
Just don’t send them to her, which would inflict your LE again!
Norma & Snow
Thank you for the quick reply yesterday. I read them both after you posted them. I was just not sure how to respond. Still not really sure. I think it is guilt coming back around because next will be 3 years since she left. Her daughter will be 21 this year. There’s been a lot of time passed. 5 years since I first met her and her daughter. So since I maintain NC I think prayer is my way to feel at peace that they are safe and happy in life. That’s all I ever want for them both. And being 3 years is coming round my memories keep surfacing. And I am trying to manage them so I can still keep going forward.
I want to thank both of you young ladies for your kind words. I can easily beat myself over this whole ordeal. Believe me you kind ladies’ words really helped me get through the rest of the day yesterday.
To Adam:
Thanks for calling me a “young” lady. Flattery will get you everywhere.
I’m 72, BTW. I am robbing the cradle with my 66-yo LO.
I hope you can get some peace with your situation. Sending love through prayer is a wonderful thing. Perhaps you feel guilty about things that happened while you were involved with LO and it’s too late to fix that.
Prayer is one of the best ways to find some peace, I think.
@Adam
I wouldn’t say they are outright wrong. The only way they would be wrong is if LO was your prayer focus only. However I don’t think that is where you are at. I feel as if you are sincere enough to know what you want for yourself, your Wife, marriage and family. If you know in your heart you are praying for LO with nothing but honest, clean crystal clear good intent, then that is by all means fine..
Thing is you don’t really need to even ask me that. God already knows your heart. Way before you even got on here to post this question. You know what you want for LO. But you also know that dwelling on her for any length of time is a slippery slope for your mindset and the LE. Be careful in this area.
As one who isn’t married anymore, I feel I can be a little more freewheeling if I dawdle in LO reverie or rumination. This obviously has increased as of late, since LF decided she could find friendship elsewhere. It’s made work awkward but I’m dealing and thankfully she’s staying in her lane.. But this LF bs defaults me back towards LO curiosity and getting into LE mindset. Because she’s still a very comfortable idea and at the same time a very sad and hurtful idea because nothing will ever happen. She was out of my league then and still very far out now.. I still love thinking about her though and maybe even seeing her again soon but it’s not a priority, nor am I really in a place to care if I do. If it happens, it will.. I remember how she made me feel every day. However I do pray for her often, have lit candles for her at church, and desire nothing but the best. I also know she recently lost someone very close to her, so I am especially seeking and asking God for guidance over and direction for her during this difficult time.. Nothing but crystal clear good intent. God knows this..
At least I hope God knows this.
I feel like you’re still kicking yourself for not doing more for LO and for whatever reason you feel you need to make up for it. At this point, prayer is about the best thing you can do, but keep yourself in mind too. Ask God to search your heart and to remove any ill harboring the good. There probably isn’t much considering you and your Wife continue on. Yes there will always be issues and things that come up, but this is why you should never cease to pray. In any and all circumstances. I hope this is making sense. I’m trying to be better.
Anyway, that’s just my take. I’m a terrible Catholic and an even more horrible Christian anyway. How can you even think to ask such an awful person like me anything spiritually related??
Just kidding Brother. Ask me anything. If I’m wrong, I’ll buy the first round.. Then the second, third, fourth, etc.. 😂
Norma
Now I know how to stay on your good side. 🙂 That’s a reasonable age gap. Both my grandparents were more than 10 years apart and they all 4 took their vows to the grave. I think you’ll be alright.
MJ
Thank you for your reply. I’ve been thinking on it since I first saw it. Especially ….
“I feel like you’re still kicking yourself for not doing more for LO and for whatever reason you feel you need to make up for it. ”
From what she told me of her personal life she has been through more by her mid 30’s than some women will go through in a lifetime. And when she trusted in me to try to help her work enviroment get better I look at her leaving as me failing. I don’t want to go too far off into this as I am trying minimize looking back too often. But I understand what you are saying. And perhaps prayer is where I am trying to make up for my percieved failure.
Sorry that the LF drama is still taking it’s toll on you. It’s like when I likened my bad EKG reading after she left to heartbreak, my cardiologist said “emotional and psychological trauma can represent physically in the heart.” And I responded “So all this time you’ve been trying to get me to stop drinking and it’s been women that have been killing me all this time?” 🙂
Hi all
Just posting my thoughts this morning. I’m feeling a bit blue. I’m back and forth between realising that cutting off LO entirely is m the right thing to do, and missing her, wondering what she’s doing, etc. The good news is that the voice telling me I miss her – well I don’t seem to hear from it as much, and it is quieter.
Hopefully today is going to be one of reflection, nothing more. Although, if I’m honest – I’d rather not spend the day reflecting on it/her.
Hope all is well with my LwL family, although from what I’ve seen, there’s a bit of disquiet going on….
Justme .
Justme
I just wanted to put a reply to show that someone’s read your comment that you’re feeling blue this morning. I hope you find something suitably distracting and interesting to do today that has nothing to do with LO. Just concentrate on getting through today.
Monochrome
Thanks for getting in touch. Really appreciate it.
Jmmo
Just me,
Whatever you’re feeling is normal and it will last for a while. Try not push away too hard unwanted emotions, but calmly watch them and keep telling yourself, “they’re normal symptoms of LE COLD, they will pass.” It’s the only way to reduce strength of emotions, all kinds.
Sorry for nagging this Buddhistic approach on you repeatedly. Hope you’ll get through the day as you have wished.
Dear ❄️
Please don’t apologise, it’s very helpful. As the days goes on I’m mulling on it less, but when the thoughts do come I’m trying to be mindful with them as you suggest.
Thank you for your wisdom. I always value and appreciate your advice x
Jmmo x
Just letting you know I empathize completely. Wishing you a good day although I suspect with the time difference, yours may be over already?
Hi Norma
Really sweet of you to get in touch. Thank you.
It’s a little after 5pm here, so the day is mostly done. I hope that you are well. And thanks again.
Jmmo xx
@JustMe
I was just coming on here to literally post the exact same thing.
Same, friend. Same.
I am SAD. Very, very sad. It’s so surprising because I really felt I was doing better, I had moments of such clarity (I think?) around it all. I felt I had done the right thing.
I still know I have done the right thing…somewhere in here (*points to body, general heart, head area*) I know. But, there is, I guess, what I would call, quite a vigorous rebellion going on there, too.
I miss my LO beaucoup. I feel weepy and have, all weekend. The feeling is still here today.
I am telling myself this is because my brain now understands this is real…I am really, really not going back. And it’s not happy. I am telling myself this is one of it’s tricks, trying everything in it’s playbook to get me to go back.
I am telling myself this is grief, and part of the healing process.
But…as you and I both know (and everyone here knows…) logic will only get us so far.
I feel like an utter jerk for cutting LO off, for ghosting. I am aching for him.
But I had my reasons….
I am with you in spirit, friend. Hopefully, we can help each other, just by sympathizing.
With care….much!
csc
Csc 🤖,
Proepare minimum 6-8 months or longer you’d feel this way. It’s real neural system adjustment, not up to your wishful thinking in any direction.
Just me: it will take longer for you to feel this bad,,, because your LO is still in sight.
I’ve been in your shoes — for nearly 8 years. So be patient to get yourself out of LE.
thank you so much, dear ❄️…
yes, it really surprised me, how strong my sad feelings have been, coming out of nowere, (but obviously, out of somewhere! 💔)
i really appreciate, always, your reminders that things take time. it is so easy to feel rushed, anxious, and urgent. in my limerent-recovery mind, a day can feel like a year.
you are so right about the neural adjusment. it’s so good to remember this…..i do feel i am being re-wired, in a way. which, i suppose is good and appropriate for a 🤖 now and then!!!
💕 csc
Jmmo and Csc,
Be kind to yourselves here, without losing sight of what ❄️ says about preparing for and allowing it to take time.
We have all (including me) given up a powerful and intoxicating drug that was front of our thoughts for a year or more. A drug that was never going to fix us or ‘really’ reward us, but a drug all the same. You’ve both done that hardest first part. You are not ‘jerks’ for cutting them off – you know why you had to do it.
I think the approach to take is accept there will be bad days – csc, revert to everything on the first part of that list you sent me, if that’s all you can manage. Watch the thoughts of them come and go without forcing it. And, think at other times how to distract yourselves with what you’d enjoy doing. I find that combination works – of ‘allowing’ them thought time, but not allowing it to take over.
Even though I am not NC I think I am a few weeks ahead of either of you with my ‘DoH’ moment. You have heard me describe the fatigued slog that has been, but I do feel I have turned just a slight corner now. It took maybe 10 weeks from DoH. She intrudes much less in my mind now and it has been that way for a while. I have heard you both say on better days that you’re starting to have those moments too.
Keep plugging away!
Thanks ❄️
You’re right, having her around is more painful. However, I have leave this week so have some time. And, even though we were both in work all last week I managed to not see her after Monday, which gives me encouragement
Thanks for your support
Jmmo x
@LaR
Thanks mate. I have been working on some if your morning routines and they have been very helpful.
The way that I (and csc) have been feeling today is a reminder – if it were needed – that yes, we are withdrawing from a drug, and still have some dependency issues. The mindful approach that you advocate has worked reasonably well with me today, yet the pain is still there.
How are you my friend?
Jmmo
Jmmo,
Thanks for asking after me. Cautiously, I’d say I’ve moved quite a long way in the last week – I’ve put more coping strategies in place, found better ways – it seems – to manage the coexistence with MFF, and had a decent long weekend with a combo of seeing old friends and getting cracking on a DIY project in the garden that’s been nagging away at me to start for a while.
I hope your week off brings you some peace and regeneration.
Jmmo to LaR
Really good to hear about your progress. May it continue. I have a pleasant afternoon planned!
Speak soon
Jmmo
My dear csc
I am so sorry that it has visited you again. Yes, yes and yes: it is all about that neural rewiring isn’t it? And the adjustment is, as we’ve said between us and to others, brutal.
I am indeed with you in spirit my dear friend, and I am by your side every step of the way . That day when we can look back our own yet shared experiences and say what we learned is coming, even if it’s still some way away.
I understand your longing. I do. For all that it has becime blatantly obvious that my LO is very bad for me, yes- I still feel that longing for her. But we know why we can’t, don’t we? Because, for different reasons, going back to our respective LOs will cause us much more pain in the future than this will.
I send you strength and love across the water, csc, in the knowledge that you’ve got this. You make sure that you remember that I am here, and we will continue sharing our journey.
With huge care
Jmmo x
PS: thank you for pointing me to the Fenna videos. So helpful xx
@jmmo and @LaR
yes, @LaR I also wanted to say that I really appreciated your list. The mornings are hard for me, even though I am nowhere near my LO, and away from temptation, I just struggle with my big feelings!
…after reading your list, and thinking back on the individuals here who responded in kind to my own “sheer amount of mental bandwidth” comment the other day, I realized that the accumulation of little things in my life (ie: making sure i have my lunch packed, making sure i know what i’m going to wear, maybe have checked the weather in advance….etc) are very helpful to have taken care of, prior to the start of each day, so i’m not utterly depleted by the time i get to work.
so, i am trying to make sure i take care of small things ahead of time. and i might add onto what you’ve recommended…from my own life, when i’m doing one of those “preparation” things (like, for instance, making my lunch the night before) i take a moment to say “csc, you are taking care of yourself. you are caring for yourself even as you make this huge effort to get better…and that is very good.”
so, even a trip to the grocery store, or doing my laundry, etc. can feel like an act of “self-care”.
it may sound woo-woo, but, i need that right now.
LaR, thank you for all your kindness, and all you have shared…I was very happy to read your thoughts on your own progress in your LE…it does sound like the skies are clearing for you…in a way that can be sustained….which is worth so much!
xo
csc
🍨,
I wanted to say this earlier, too — wait, wait, and wait! Certain matters, more serious concerns in relationship need time and patience. Our truthful thoughts and feelings sprout, grow and mature in time; they just can’t be rushed.
Is there any need to rush to know in your situation? I know it’s hard and anxiety-driven to wait, but rushing in any direction often further mess things up…
🫂
🦜, thank you for your very wise words. 🙏🏻 He’s seen that I’ve tried to call him. Now I can’t do much except wait. He dropped some news on me via text. It was a sensitive subject for him and I felt I couldn’t just leave him hanging with that, so I replied with my reaction. In response, he basically wished me a nice life and disappeared. (I’m kind of reminded of MJ and his LF now.)
I realise that what I said can be taken the wrong way, especially since it’s a sensitive subject. But I would hope that it’s not unforgivable..! I wouldn’t want to part ways with anyone like that.
🍨,
Well, it sounds like some kind of misunderstanding.
I would still wait a bit longer, and then perhaps text him what you really meant in reacting to his sensitive message. Hopefully, he’ll accept your sincere efforts and clear up the misunderstanding.
If you think he’s already dropped you off, then nothing could go worse by telling him your true thoughts on the matter and sincerely wishing him doing well in his life.
Another way to think about it is: if you two can’t even resolve such an issue at this early stage of a relationship, what would happen later if biggest issues come along? (Try to think in Stoic perspective.)
In the East, we believe Fate in relationship and we try our upmost efforts to build and strengthen a possible union of romance or friendship. After the mutual best efforts and it’s not working, then we say, “C’est La Vie” and move on. No ones wants a doomed, “compelled” relationship, right?
If you’re meant to be together at least for a longer period, and if he really likes you, he would contact you again. Please give him sometime to think and feel….
If you put yourself in his shoes, what and how you would feel?
Typo: if bigger issues come along….
Thank you. You’re right, it’s later in the day here and I’ve had time to observe what is going on. As I’ve said to csc, it’s the process, and having you all say it is so comforting. Thank you xx
To Bewitched from Marcia:
“Its so vexing when this happens.”
I pretty much knew what I was going to get. But hope is a hell of a drug! 🙂 I guess I thought he might have changed after all that time. He hadn’t.
“You are right that its always the ones you really really want who either do this, or who give lots of encouragement and disappear. ”
And it’s the ones you don’t want who are persistent and consistent! It’s maddening.
“Funny thing, we recently started working together, twenty years later, which was bit of a head-wreck for about 5 minutes when it happened – but I don’t allow myself to think about it. ”
Just 5 minutes? I think I would have been thrown for a few days. Unless he doesn’t appeal to you anymore. 🙂
“Ha ha, I am exactly the same. I forgot all about my ego, but that also played a huge part – thanks for the reminder! Its so important to me that I don’t let my guard down. But having said that, I am probably leaking like a sieve.”
How do you think you’re leaking? You only just accepted a social media request, right? I always think I’m giving away too much (in person), but then I’m told I’m hard to read.
“The “White Dame Complex” is the female version of the “White Knight” riding to the rescue, etc.”
What rescuing does he need?
“I mean that I didn’t want to accept the SM request just so that I could cyber-stalk him. I’d be too proud to do that anyway (see previous paragraph 🤣)”
Is it one of those where they can tell you’re looking at their profile? Or can you set it to “private” or something like that?
“No communication yet, which is probably a good thing.”
I don’t understand social media. I’m old. I only did LinkedIn to have a “presence” online when looking for jobs. But 90-95%% of the people who I messaged to become part of my network (the generic message that the former LO sent me) just accepted. We had no communication after that. And with those who did communicate with me more, it was a personal message or two and then they fell off the planet. LinkedIn would be good for, say, keeping in very, very distant touch with someone you may want to use as a professional reference someday who you no longer work with. But I can’t understand how it makes people feel connected in any way to another person. If all they are is in your network or one of your friends on Facebook.
So that’s why I can’t see why this former LO wanted to be part of my LinkedIn network. What is he getting out of it? It’s so, so, so very little. Why bother?
Marcia,
if you are not on any other social media (they tend to be a bit more communicative because people post photos about their life etc that you can like or comment on, but no one can see if you watched their profile or not)
it simply might have been the only possibility for him to keep some connection to you?
Mila,
“it simply might have been the only possibility for him to keep some connection to you?”
By joining my LinkedIn network? It’s so impersonal and so minimal.
I feel the same way about people I don’t hear from for maybe a month and then they text me a link to an article. With nothing else in the text. I don’t feel connected with that type of communication.
You are right, I don’t know either what use it would be apart from feeling a thin line of connection that he‘ll never use but maybe feels better having. Or he wants a lot of followers. Is ist followers in linked in? I don’t know that platform at all.
I recommend not giving a 🫢about why he did it as long as he doesn’t get in touch with it…
I think different people have different needs regarding a feeling of closeness. Very little seems to do some people. And I thinkwe already heard from some of the men on LwL that the mnale-female friendship is quite rare? I think its common enough amongst work colleagues but I personally dont have many male friends outside of work. And I read an article last week that said many men don’t have many friends in middle age full-stop. This becomes a problem for them if they separate from their wife/partner because then they risk losing all their friends.
Mila,
“Or he wants a lot of followers. Is ist followers in linked in? I don’t know that platform at all.”
I can’t remember what they’re called. When I created the profile, it pulled up all my email contacts as potential people to contact to join my network. I went through them and unchecked him. (So I’m guessing he has my email; I had his. Why not contact me that way? Oh, because that would have required actual, direct contact.) I know one time I got a “join my network” request from someone who had just created a profile and didn’t realize all his email contacts got a request. But this former LO already had a profile. So he would have had to search for me specifically. Or I was coming up in his suggested new contacts. He was coming up in mine and I never clicked on him.
I’m on the mindset that, unless they want to hook back up again, a former person you dated/were serious with/hooked up with … whatever it was … should NEVER reappear in your life. 🙂 He and I were never friends.
“I recommend not giving a 🫢about why he did it as long as he doesn’t get in touch with it…”
Yeah, that’s what I’ve done.
Bewitched,
“I think different people have different needs regarding a feeling of closeness. Very little seems to do some people.”
I think it depends on what other communication you have. If you’re, for example, having phone conversations and seeing each other in person, then a text that only has a picture of someone’s garden is, IMO, fine. But if your only communication/contact is texting, then a pic of the garden is weird. That’s just a bid for validation about the roses. You’re not even attempting to find out how I am or share how you are. It’s the equivalent of liking something on Facebook but there’s no other contact. To me, personally, I’d rather have no contact. But that’s me. (I think this is different than LinkedIn, which is a professional site. I don’t need more personal communication from a former boss, for example. I wouldn’t expect it.)
“And I thinkwe already heard from some of the men on LwL that the mnale-female friendship is quite rare? ”
Well, I’d like to hear from them. Do they befriend women who they aren’t attracred to but just really like? And by “befriend,” I mean someone they communicate with outside of work (or wherever they met) and hang out with outside of work. Or do they only befriend women they find appealing with the intention (or hope) of it becoming more? Or do they befriend women they initially think will only be a friend and they grow attracted to her over time? Personally, if I’m friends with a man, I’m not attracted to him. That’s why we’re friends. 😀 If I’m into him and I can tell it’s not going to happen, I don’t want to maintain contact and/or hang out. But most of the guy friends I’ve had have eventually stated making sexual comments or suggestions at me. I only have 1 left (he disclosed a crush many years ago), but he’s since gotten a serious girlfriend, so you know what happened there. We were very tight at one point and now we’re like friendly acquaintances.
“This becomes a problem for them if they separate from their wife/partner because then they risk losing all their friends.”
Yeah, the wife is the social director. I personally don’t want that responsibility for someone. I have enough issues making my own friends. 🙂 Adult friendship is hard.
Marcia – replied a second ago but it went in wrong place, so repeating here:
It could be any of those for me, Marcia.
I have some female friends (of the kind you said) who I have never been attracted to and I befriended knowing that. I just like(d) them as friends.
In my single days I’d sometimes befriend women in the hopes it could turn into more (I never was good at going straight for the jugular).
In my non single days I have befriended women knowing it could turn into more (bad moves I accept) and others not thinking it would, but then it did, like recent LO.
I have had my say on this with you a lot before though. What do other LwL men say about it?
LAR,
“In my single days I’d sometimes befriend women in the hopes it could turn into more (I never was good at going straight for the jugular).”
And I have to be honest, when my guy friends started making comments at me weeks or months after becoming friends (and we openly discussed other people we liked, something I never would have done if I was interested in them), I felt a little manipulated. Why not make their interest clear much sooner? Tbh, I think it was because deep down they already knew the answer.
I operate much differently. If I had been interested in them, I would have tried to push things forward or tried to decipher if they were interested. Not wait it out. And with some, I knew a lot about past loves they were still hung up on. Or their seduction techniques with current babes. Or the number of current babes. None of this info warmed up my chasis. I’m not getting in line. 😀
“In my non single days I have befriended women knowing it could turn into more (bad moves I accept) and others not thinking it would, but then it did, like recent LO.”
I think it gets tricky if one or both parties have a partner. I feel a little used by my guy friend who has
drastically changed our friendship after getting a girlfriend. Like he needed some kind of surrogate female presence in his like … until he didn’t.
“What do other LwL men say about it”
I don’t know. Maybe you’re the only one with female friends outside of work or an activity. Does your wife have male friends? What if one if them was super hot?
Marcia,
“I felt a little manipulated. Why not make their interest clear much sooner? Tbh, I think it was because deep down they already knew the answer”
Yeah I can totally get that.
“I feel a little used by my guy friend who has drastically changed our friendship after getting a girlfriend. Like he needed some kind of surrogate female presence in his like … until he didn’t.”
So that’s what I haven’t been prepared to do – kick my female friends to the kerb when I start a relationship. The friends have been a permanent presence in my life for years, while any relationship starts with the prospect it might be temporary.
“Does your wife have male friends? What if one if them was super hot?”
No, not really. I might struggle if she had a super-hot male friend, but I’d be a hypocrite if I told her she couldn’t have male friends and I have never tried to say that to her. I’d have to deal with it if it happened.
When we met, I had two really close female friends (not from work and never attraction with either). I told SO I was not prepared to give them up, and she did not try to force my hand. I also was open with her that I often make female friends and that I work in a female-majority environment. I have made two more close female friends (from work, but I see them outside sometimes) in the course of the time we’ve been together. SO knows about them, has met them, but struggles a bit about the ‘hotter’ one (more about this other woman’s behaviours and motives than mine). That friendship has always been innocent on my side.
However, I’ve had two LOs while with SO, where I know I went out of my lane. The first was one of the ill-advised “nurtured the friendship even though knowing there was chemistry” that I said about above. We eventually disclosed and went NC as we were both in relationships. The second has been the recent LO and that was far longer, tougher and a real life lesson that makes me more certain I won’t go down this road again. I was friends with her already when I met SO, but mainly in a work sense. I let the friendship deepen and expand and when it turned into limerence, I realised I had gone a long way out of my lane (possibly as far as my friend is concerned as well). I would not have admitted that in so many words when I was first on LwL, but would now.
It’s complicated – each of these friendships are different. Some are totally innocent while the two LOs weren’t. I think I know the difference properly now between a platonic female friend and one with glimmer potential, and can act on that difference in the future.
To LaR from Marcia
“Yeah I can totally get that.”
My male friends went through the side door and not the front. You always want to go through the front door. 🙂
“So that’s what I haven’t been prepared to do – kick my female friends to the kerb when I start a relationship. The friends have been a permanent presence in my life for years, while any relationship starts with the prospect it might be temporary.”
Yes, but most people don’t see it that way. Friendship, to them, is a secondary relationship. And when my friend dates, it’s always serious. He doesn’t do casual. I don’t know if his girlfriend told him to pull back on our friendship or if he did it himself, but I definitely feel like he’s cramming and slotting me in at times when she’s not around and he’s always rushed. (There’s nothing romantic between us, no flirting. She could read all our texts and be present when he’s on the phone with me. He disclosed his crush years ago but it’s not come up since. He says we’re not compatible for a relationship — and we aren’t. I didn’t really need to tell him I’m not into him like that.) But I’ve pulled back myself. That was very painful when he pulled back. He was one of my “ride or dies.” Operative word being “was.”
“When we met, I had two really close female friends (not from work and never attraction with either). I told SO I was not prepared to give them up, and she did not try to force my hand.”
I think that was the right move on her part (I wouldn’t dictate to someone who to be friends with), but I won’t lie and say I’d be comfortable with it. I don’t think I’d date a man who had close female friends.
“It’s complicated – each of these friendships are different. Some are totally innocent while the two LOs weren’t. I think I know the difference properly now between a platonic female friend and one with glimmer potential, and can act on that difference in the future.”
So with the two women who became your LOs … you were attracted in the beginning of the friendship? These weren’t female friends you became attracted to later on?
If it’s the first option, yes, stay away from friendships with women you find appealing.
If it’s the second option, I don’t see how you can have female friends. They could always become LOs.
With me, it’s not a problem. I’m like what Snow wrote about herself. I have a “romantic” file and a “friend” file. A male friend is in the second file. It’s not that I’ve never thought about any of my male friends in that way; there’s just not enough interest to “go there.”
However, if I’m being honest, I was probably getting some “male energy/caring” needs met from that recent male friend. He did a lot for me (more emotional support that actual acts of service), and maybe that’s not fair of me. To expect that if he’s dating someone.
“What do other LwL men say about it”
I’m gonna butt in here real quick and just add that if I’m interested in a person, I’m going to keep coming around, get to know them and run with the vibe I get. If it’s positive, I’m definitely going to start turning up the dial, but at the same time, not in overt sexual means or blatant flirtation. I try to be more subtle and kind. Allow them to be curious and show that I’m not typical. I feel as if they are welcome to my company and do not seem to mind my presence, then I’ll try to keep a good thing going and be her friend while trying amp towards something a little more.
Not gonna lie though. It was hard to be just a friend to LF. She knew I was wrapped around her finger tight. It didn’t help that I feel she liked my validation and is irritated now I pulled back. I don’t really care though. She can have virtually any man she wants around there and they can deal with her.
Marcia,
“maybe that’s not fair of me. To expect that if he’s dating someone.”
This is knotty to me. I’d argue that if his crush for you was long gone and you’d settled as friends and both accepted that … well, has he really done the right thing dialling back on you? Right by whose standards? Did he need to? I’d say if it was me in his boat, my friend might be entitled to expect better from me. I mean I’ll grant you it would probably have to change a bit if dating someone, but not loads. My guess is that his girlfriend asked him to pull back.
I was trying to think how my ‘filing’ system is organised compared to yours. I think I have three files compared to your two. The files at both ends are cut and dried, the middle one more problematic.
The first LO I mentioned was ‘instant romantic file’, the second was a ‘grower’ over the long haul. The first is a more cut and dried mistake on my part.
MJ,
“If it’s positive, I’m definitely going to start turning up the dial, but at the same time, not in overt sexual means or blatant flirtation.”
Sorry, I think this is a bad strategy. If you’re interested in more than friendship. Just ask her out as soon as possible. Make it clear you’re asking her out on a date.
And then if she’s says no, then you know. And you can decide from there if you want to hang around and just be friends or move on. You get a say in this. It’s not all about what she wants. (which is how your post reads — that she has all the power)
Otherwise, you can end up a low-level orbiter who she has no intention of ever dating. And if she does like you, the direct, bold approach will probably will you points.
LaR,
“I’d argue that if his crush for you was long gone and you’d settled as friends and both accepted that … ”
Yes, that’s where we were.
“I’d say if it was me in his boat, my friend might be entitled to expect better from me.”
Tbh, I didn’t see it coming (how much the friendship changed) and it was painful.
“I mean I’ll grant you it would probably have to change a bit if dating someone, but not loads. ”
Our friendship is long distance so we don’t hang out. Calls, texts and emails. But all of that is much, much less than it was before she showed up. And I no longer consider him someone I’d call if I needed to talk.
“My guess is that his girlfriend asked him to pull back.”
But he agreed to it. And female friends have done it, too. Get a boyfriend and all but fall of the planet. It’s not uncommon.
“The first LO I mentioned was ‘instant romantic file’, the second was a ‘grower’ over the long haul. The first is a more cut and dried mistake on my part.”
I would not want my SO communicating with and hanging out with someone he was limerent for. I would expect him to remove himself from that friendship. Obviously, first explaining to the friend why.
“I would not want my SO communicating with and hanging out with someone he was limerent for. I would expect him to remove himself from that friendship. Obviously, first explaining to the friend why.”
SO never put that expectation on me. She didn’t know but might have suspected. Either way, she left me to sort it out for myself and has never truly challenged me about it.
I know you have very straight to the point views about this sort of thing. But I couldn’t and can’t cut her right off because we work fairly closely together. I cut it down and am not limerent anymore. Explaining it to either of them now after the event would probably create more problems than it would solve. But I take the learnings from it on the chin, as getting out of the limerence has been a process and a half.
Ps – @MJ – are you *still* trying to shark Marcia? I’m sure you will never give up!
LaR
“SO never put that expectation on me. ”
And you’ve had a conversation so you know? Even a generic one at some point. You both agreed upon how you would handle it if either of you developed strong feelings for someone else, which seems kind of inevitable in a long relationship.
“She didn’t know but might have suspected. Either way, she left me to sort it out for myself and has never truly challenged me about it.”
Sounds like a lot of inferring.
“Explaining it to either of them now after the event would probably create more problems than it would solve.”
If you truly think you’re over the limerence, no, I wouldn’t bring it up with either woman.
But limerence is a selfish state of mind. Limerents want what they want — which is the LO. I include myself in this description. I acted very selfishly and dubiously, and I knew I was.
“Ps – @MJ – are you *still* trying to shark Marcia? I’m sure you will never give up!”
I’m not entirely sure what “sharking” means, but I’m like MJ … I like ’em young. No one over 30 need apply. 😀
“If you’re interested in more than friendship. Just ask her out as soon as possible. Make it clear you’re asking her out on a date.”
@Marcia
I see your point but if I’m not her friend first then how do I know if I want the goods? Sure direct approach might score me higher points, but with my luck, I’d end up with a Dud and she might not be worth my time.
The only person who could get a pass on this would be LO. But since you know what a Twit I turned out to be in that episode, that strategy would only backfire in my face. (Think Yosemite Sam inside the cannon when Bugs Bunny lights the fuse. That’s about how I’d look if that happened 😂😂)
“Ps – @MJ – are you *still* trying to shark Marcia? I’m sure you will never give up!”
“I’m not entirely sure what “sharking” means, but I’m like MJ … I like ’em young. No one over 30 need apply. 😀”
@LaR,
That Feisty Old Broad doesn’t scare me. She’s just trying to be like me. We might be the same age but I’m a young and under 30 year old Dude at heart. She says with my 54 years I shouldn’t apply, but I don’t care. Her and I have been over this many times..
I’m like her young Tiger trying to make her my Tigress. Which is really a compliment, because it means a fierce or passionate Woman. A Woman thought of as like a tiger in sensuous sleekness, ferocity, etc.
@Dearest Marcia,
How’s that for sharking you today?? 😀
Let me be the wingman and lay down some background music ….
https://youtu.be/6dnGoLBpulU?si=ZXq8ocABKR8YmL7v
(Don’t say I never helped you out brother.)
Thanks Brother.. I forgot about that song.. I should’ve seen it coming. Hopefully she likes it.. 🤣
PS,
You got me thinking it really belongs on LOs playlist but I’m also kinda feeling I should be snarky today and randomly send the link to LF. Her and I were in close proximity last night because her side of the line needed help. She kept staring at me all night. It’s so freakin awkward. The Woman is either too full of pride to simply speak to me now or just nuts..
At this point, I’m going with the latter.. 😂
To the Shark from Marcia
“I see your point but if I’m not her friend first then how do I know if I want the goods? ”
Um … through the normal dating process.
So you have to be friends with a woman first to know you want to have sex with her? (I thought you were a bit of a ho back in the day. That doesn’t sound like ho behavior. In all seriousness. Hos operate on physical attraction and worry about the rest later. At least that’s what I did in my ho phase.
🙂
“Sure direct approach might score me higher points, but with my luck, I’d end up with a Dud and she might not be worth my time.”
You’re not going to “end up” with anybody. You just don’t ask her out for another date if it turns out, through the normal dating process, you learn that you don’t really like her. I don’t understand how else you would do it.
I can only speak for myself, but the guy friends I had who I thought were friends and later started making comments/suggestions at me … I felt a bit manipulated. As I told LaR. If romance and/or sex were on their minds, they should have made that clear from the beginning. Also, it kind of felt like they knew I wasn’t interested but were hoping I’d change my mind if they hung out in the orbiter lane long enough.
“The only person who could get a pass on this would be LO. But since you know what a Twit I turned out to be in that episode, that strategy would only backfire in my face.”
What strategy? You didn’t ask her out. You have no idea if you wouldn’t have liked her had you gotten to know her.
“Her and I have been over this many times..”
And you’re not HEARING me. 🙂
“We might be the same age but I’m a young and under 30 year old Dude at heart. ”
It’s not about how young you feel; it’s about how young you look. 🙂 And, no, you don’t look thirty. I don’t know anyone who looks more than 2 decades younger.
“I’m also kinda feeling I should be snarky today and randomly send the link to LF”
Doooo it! Doooo it! Lmao
Or one of the songs that I can only imagine most would know that comes from Momma and I’s playlist … you know … probably something from Barry White or Marvin Gaye …. possibly Diviynls even if you want to be really snarky ….
Hi Marcia,
I thought I’d reply to the ‘juicier’ details above, in case you’re interested.
““Funny thing, we recently started working together, twenty years later, which was bit of a head-wreck for about 5 minutes when it happened – but I don’t allow myself to think about it. ”
Just 5 minutes? I think I would have been thrown for a few days. Unless he doesn’t appeal to you anymore. 🙂”
I was also surprised (and relieved, honestly) that I got over this in about 5 minutes. At first, when I discovered that this guy that I had ‘carried a candle for’ over years was going to be working with me, I was thinking ‘wow, if my past self could see my future self in this position, my past self’s mind would be blown’. But apart from having an internal warm and happy feeling about the prospect, I forgot about it almost instantly. When I told my friends, their minds were blown though. Their minds are *still* blown and they keep asking me how its going, using funny voices when referring to him, etc. The answer is that it has been going very smooth and professional 🙂 We actually work well together. Every so often while in the middle of something serious and work-related, I have a rogue thought such as ‘I have seen you naked…’. Mainly because he is objectively gorgeous (still gorgeous in middle age!). But I don’t react to him like I used to. Life has taught me too many things. For example, I was probably close to it but never actually limerent for him, as in, never so captivated that I lost my mind over him, with intrusive thoughts and all the rest. Now that I know that there is that potential inside my brain, I am not letting it go close to a glimmer with Mr Big from my past.
About current LO:
“How do you think you’re leaking? You only just accepted a social media request, right? I always think I’m giving away too much (in person), but then I’m told I’m hard to read.”
Most of our contact is virtual so that doesn’t count. But when we are f2f I think I probably leak emotions with him. To be honest, he acts strange around me too (jumpy, excitable, etc), which sort of sets me off. I am not sure how much of a ‘chicken and egg’ situation this is – I set him off, or he sets me off. The long gaps between f2f, and the fact that its always much more difficult f2f than online means its hard to know where I am at in my recovery. This has been going on for 6 years now but it might all have calmed down by the next time I see him (as things tend to do, eventually?).
“What rescuing does he need?”
He is neurodiverse (armchair diagnosis), a poor communicator (various issues) and very chaotic (ADHD?). So I feel a bit protective of him when others get exasperated. Mind you, I probably have issues of my own, bigger ones 🤣! Don’t we all?!
🐝 🧙♀️,
I finally got your stories straight, confused before about your xLO and LO. I have NO idea how I would feel/react if ET suddenly appears in front of me after exact 11 months of NC! It feels like a decade ago….
I don’t think your protectiveness is an issue, isn’t it motherly /parental instinct/habit? 😀
You’re right, everyone has his/her own psychological “knot”, tiny or gigantic…
Have a lovely day, White Dame 🐝 🧙♀️ !
By the way, I sent LO5 (a brilliant, handsome, HSP, xfwb) a birthday greeting this morning, as he always sent me one; No words, just 🎂 !
A small human ritual is fine…
Hi Snow,
How wonderful – your memories of LO5 and mine of Mr Big will still be there when we are old and grey.
By the way, I believe I have only been limerent once (current LO). Mr Big was a strong and lengthy crush but it never went ‘dark’ like it dd with LO. I was speaking about ‘xLO/XLO’ with other posters and may not have expressed myself well. Sorry about that.
I hope that you are having a lovely day!
Bx
It could be any of those for me, Marcia.
I have some female friends (of the kind you said) who I have never been attracted to and I befriended knowing that. I just like(d) them as friends.
In my single days I’d sometimes befriend women in the hopes it could turn into more (I never was good at going straight for the jugular).
In my non single days I have befriended women knowing it could turn into more (bad moves I accept) and others not thinking it would, but then it did, like recent LO.
I have had my say on this with you a lot before though. What do other LwL men say about it?
Bewitched,
“Every so often while in the middle of something serious and work-related, I have a rogue thought such as ‘I have seen you naked…’. ”
Omg! Did I miss this detail? I thought it was some guy you were crushing on but not much had happened. What happened with him? Why did it end? No wonder your friends are having some fun with you about this. I’m going to picture you with your LO like Dabney Coleman is in the movie “9 to 5,” arranging things on his desk so they fall off and he can watch his secretary, Dolly Parton, pick them up. (Let me have my delusions.) 😀
“Now that I know that there is that potential inside my brain, I am not letting it go close to a glimmer with Mr Big from my past.”
Was he like Mr. Big? Hot and cold?
“But when we are f2f I think I probably leak emotions with him. ”
Oh, yeah, that’s harder to hide. F2F.
“as things tend to do, eventually?”
Mine had calmed down by the time I went NC but it wasnt totally over and it still bothered me to run into him occasionally. Because of course he was never going to say and do what I wanted so there was always that disappointment. And I was just really frustrated and annoyed with him. Both are powerful motivators to want to shut the door permanently.
“Mind you, I probably have issues of my own, bigger ones 🤣! Don’t we all?!”
Yes. I think you’re the first woman (or one of the first) who wanted to save an LO. Usually it’s the male posters. Maybe you’re a caretaker ?
Bewitched,
I meant with your former crush.
Hey Marcia,
I wanted to get back to our convo about ‘Mr Big'” because I think you’ll enjoy what led up to this:
““Every so often while in the middle of something serious and work-related, I have a rogue thought such as ‘I have seen you naked…’. ”
Omg! Did I miss this detail? I thought it was some guy you were crushing on but not much had happened. What happened with him? Why did it end? No wonder your friends are having some fun with you about this.”
I never provided the detail! But since I have your attention (:D) I am happy to give some details. It was one hot Summer, nearly 30 years ago. We used to go out dancing as a group and he was so gorgeous that he had a lot of women interested in him, flirting, etc., including me. We went on a road trip one time, to a gig at the other side of the country – it was bliss just being in his company. Nothing happened for ages but I was obsessed (not in a limerent way). I remember one time I was in a car with someone else, a long way from home , daydreaming about him, suddenly in a queue of traffic through a hick town somewhere, there he was, on the other side of the road waving at me (he didn’t know my friend). I thought it was meant to be 😁. Joking aside, it was quite intense. The happy memory I will kick around in my head when I am old and grey is the time he put me on the crossbar of his racing bike and cycled me home up one of the steepest hills in the city we lived in. He was very strong and athletic, swoon. Luckily, with age and experience, I have discovered that compatibility in an actual relationship requires a few other things, like comfort and reassurance.
““Now that I know that there is that potential inside my brain, I am not letting it go close to a glimmer with Mr Big from my past.”
Was he like Mr. Big? Hot and cold?”
No, he was just a massive flirt and always had a gaggle of women around. He was a serious person too, but had a flirty front. He is ‘Mr Big’ in reality, however, he is built like a roman statue.
““Mind you, I probably have issues of my own, bigger ones 🤣! Don’t we all?!”
Yes. I think you’re the first woman (or one of the first) who wanted to save an LO. Usually it’s the male posters. Maybe you’re a caretaker ?”
Ooh, maybe, although I am not sure what you mean!? We are very nice to each other now and it is very much as though none of that stuff ever actually happened!
Bewitched,
“I never provided the detail! ”
Whew. I usually don’t miss those kinds of details. 🙂
“But since I have your attention (:D)”
You do, but don’t bury/obscure the lead next time. 🙂
“The happy memory I will kick around in my head when I am old and grey is the time he put me on the crossbar of his racing bike and cycled me home up one of the steepest hills in the city we lived in. He was very strong and athletic, swoon.”
Yeah, that’s lovely (she writes sarcastically) :)) , but I’d prefer to hear about your viewing of his body. 🙂
“Luckily, with age and experience, I have discovered that compatibility in an actual relationship requires a few other things, like comfort and reassurance.”
Most definitely. That’s what really sucks. With age and experience, you learn that attraction is not necessarily an indicator that a good relationship is to follow. Or that you should even date the person. Mother Nature really screws with us. Why make someone so appealing and so wrong for everything else?
“No, he was just a massive flirt and always had a gaggle of women around. ”
Didn’t that drive you crazy? My LO was very flirtatious. I always wondered who else he was flirting with (and unfortunately heard about some if it. I’m a naturally jealous person. It drove me nuts.)
“He is ‘Mr Big’ in reality”
I’m not sure what you mean by “Mr. Big.” In Sex and the City, he’s a very wealthy guy who jerks Carrie around in a toxic situationship where he won’t commit. But I do think Chris Noth is sexy in that part.
“Ooh, maybe, although I am not sure what you mean!? ”
You said you had a rescue complex. What do you want to rescue him from?
@Coffehouse.
For people still really struggling with definitions, here’s a pithy summary:
Love = you have a relationship with the person, and sincerely want what’s best for them.
Limerence = brain hijacked by a fantasy.
To Sammy:
Well, that complicates things, because I have both of those with my LO.
Sammy,
“Love = you have a relationship with the person, and sincerely want what’s best for them”
Personally, I think of the word “relationship” as serious romantic involvement agreed upon by both sides. Different than friendship and more serious than an FWB. So that does negate most limerent situations because most of them don’t get serious, even if sex is involved.
I dont think of love and limerence as co-existing. Although I suppose it’s possible for the latter to follow the former. I don’t know how common it is.
To Marcia:
In my case, I have both. I have been friends with LO for two years, and I feel love and concern for him, in addition to the limerence. He will be moving 3,000 miles away within the next 6-9 months. I will be so sad to lose him, but this is best for HIM, and I want what’s best for him. He is very stressed out in his current living situation, and he will be happier in the new place.
Norma,
You’re not in a romantic relationship with him. It’s what I wrote to LE yesterday. He had the feelings and the attachment but not the mutually agreed-upon romantic relationship with his LO.
@Marcia.
“Personally, I think of the word “relationship” as serious romantic involvement agreed upon by both sides. Different than friendship and more serious than an FWB. So that does negate most limerent situations because most of them don’t get serious, even if sex is involved.”
When I say relationship, I mean “genuine emotional intimacy” and not a dynamic that’s formally agreed upon. I imagine Limerent Emeritus had genuine emotional intimacy with his girlfriend (his LO#2). But I understand what you mean. 🙂
If I’m really honest, I’ve had genuine emotional intimacy with males I’ve had crushes on, and with platonic friends, but not with my former LO. So that sucks. My brain still likes to pretend “we were sooooo close”, but a lot of that closeness was fantasy fuelled by brain chemicals.
We were classmates for four years (while I was infatuated with him the whole time). Then I never saw him in person again. So I haven’t seen him in person since I was 18. (Twenty-four years!) A letter to him, a letter from him, a card to him, a couple of Facebook messages back and forth (which I didn’t read out of fear), and a whole lot of second-hand gossip kept the delusion alive. Ugh!
The girl who liked me in high school – she (subtly) kept pushing for some kind of “define the relationship” talk. I wasn’t entirely sure what she wanted from me. I thought maybe she was a bit batty. But I get it now. We couldn’t be in a relationship (in her mind) unless I made some sort of verbal agreement with her. She didn’t want endless games of cat and mouse. She wanted almost-immediate “girlfriend status”. I thought she was in a weird rush, but maybe men and women’s minds work differently. Definitely let her down badly if she was plotting to walk down the aisle with me! 😊
“I don’t think of love and limerence as co-existing.”
I absolutely understand what you mean. I think that’s one of the things people in limerence tend to remain in denial about. I.e. “But of course I love and/or loved so-and-so. So-and-so made me feel … hiiiiiigh” 😆
On a purely chemical level, I think love and limerence feel very different, so maybe you’re right – maybe the two states cannot coexist. 🙂
Sammy Sams,
“When I say relationship, I mean “genuine emotional intimacy” and not a dynamic that’s formally agreed upon. ”
I can see that.
“I imagine Limerent Emeritus had genuine emotional intimacy with his girlfriend (his LO#2). ”
I agree, but he used the word “relationship” with both 2 and 4 and wrote he was different than the limerents on here in that he had relationships with those LOs. In terms of LO#4, IMO, you cannot have a “relationship” with someone who you’ve never met and whose feelings you are uncertain of, who may not share yours.
“I’ve had genuine emotional intimacy with males I’ve had crushes on, and with platonic friends, but not with my former LO. So that sucks. My brain still likes to pretend “we were sooooo close”, but a lot of that closeness was fantasy fuelled by brain chemicals.”
I could not agree with you more on this. I’m the same way. I was not close with my most recent LO, though the limerent hormones sure made me think I was. But how well did I really know him, what did we really share with each other?
“The girl who liked me in high school – she (subtly) kept pushing for some kind of “define the relationship” talk. I wasn’t entirely sure what she wanted from me. I thought maybe she was a bit batty. But I get it now. We couldn’t be in a relationship (in her mind) unless I made some sort of verbal agreement with her. She didn’t want endless games of cat and mouse. She wanted almost-immediate “girlfriend status”. I thought she was in a weird rush, but maybe men and women’s minds work differently.”
Being pressed and rushed would turn me off, but I do think there has to be some kind of conversation at some point. People throw the word “exclusive” around now, but I’ve learned that’s a loophole. It means you’re not sleeping with other people; it doesn’t mean you’re not dating other people. See why you have to have some kind of conversation? Usually, you have an idea it’s getting serious because things are progressing and building with communication and time spent together. So the conversation doesn’t have to be long and laborious. If, however, someone is contacting you once every 10 days and seeing you once every 2 weeks … well, you don’t need to have the conversation. There’s not much there. Sounds like the girl in high school was a trying to have that conversation too early and with little evidence she actually should have it. But she was young … and all ready to lock down our Sammy Sams! I’ll cut her some slack. 🙂
” Definitely let her down badly if she was plotting to walk down the aisle with me! 😊”
Poor girl. 🙂
“I absolutely understand what you mean. I think that’s one of the things people in limerence tend to remain in denial about. I.e. “But of course I love and/or loved so-and-so. So-and-so made me feel … hiiiiiigh” 😆”
I look at limerence/”in love” and love as almost two different things. The former is the high, the infatuation; the latter is what you wrote — the emotional intimacy and really knowing someone. But … when you’re in the first phase, you can’t see the person clearly. It’s a lot of projection.
I suppose if you knew them well and were close BEFORE the limerence, there may be love there. That might be an exception.
@Marcia.
“I look at limerence/”in love” and love as almost two different things. The former is the high, the infatuation; the latter is what you wrote — the emotional intimacy and really knowing someone. But … when you’re in the first phase, you can’t see the person clearly. It’s a lot of projection.I suppose if you knew them well and were close BEFORE the limerence, there may be love there. That might be an exception.”
When did you get to be so smart? This development is truly disgusting! Now I can’t even argue with you… 😆
“He’s a friend and he gave you butterflies? What more do you need in life? 🙂”
**cough, cough, cough** Money? 😁
No, I’m just traumatised by going through the limerence cycle once. Can’t risk any more heartbreak in life. Also, I don’t want to end up resenting Mr Butterflies if the interaction turned emotionally painful for me at some point. I’d rather always have happy memories of him. I want to think of him as eternally free and beautiful. 😉
Limerence to me seems like this sinister biological force that drags people down to the deepest pits of Hell. I’m not sure I want to go there again. And if I do go there again, I don’t want to take anyone with me. All trips to Hell must be solo trips for this intrepid explorer of the Universe. I’ve learned to “leave well enough alone”. 😉
I am afraid of the darkness that exists in my own soul. I’ve seen the darkness leach out in all sorts of shocking ways. Limerence appears to be a doorway to that darkness. I must keep the door closed. 😜
As you might be able to tell, I’m a tiny bit manic at the moment. I blame the very mild mania on the end of limerence. I feel super-alert. I’ve missed two nights’ sleep this week. I ate a whole bag of lollies from a posh lolly shop. But I also feel astonishingly clear-headed. During limerence, I felt super-alert but groggy. 😉
Sammy,
I thought about one more thing: We are projecting onto the LO, who we can’t see clearly, but we’re also not ourselves around the LO. Not if we’re busy trying to win their attention and approval. So they can’t see us clearly because our real selves haven’t shown up. Therefore, I don’t think emotional intimacy (what I guess you would call love) is possible while limerent. Not until the limerence dies down.
Love, to me, is based on … sorry … some level of reality. It’s grounded in something real.
@Marcia.
“… we’re also not ourselves around the LO. Not if we’re busy trying to win their attention and approval. So they can’t see us clearly because our real selves haven’t shown up. Therefore, I don’t think emotional intimacy (what I guess you would call love) is possible while limerent. Not until the limerence dies down.
Love, to me, is based on … sorry … some level of reality. It’s grounded in something real.”
Brilliant! We need a little gold frame for that first paragraph. Can confirm 100% from my own lived experience. 🙂
Sammy,
“Brilliant! We need a little gold frame for that first paragraph. Can confirm 100% from my own lived experience. 🙂”
Keep the compliments coming! 🙂
““He’s a friend and he gave you butterflies? What more do you need in life? 🙂”
**cough, cough, cough** Money? 😁”
You only need money when you’re old. You’re not there yet. 🙂
“No, I’m just traumatised by going through the limerence cycle once. Can’t risk any more heartbreak in life.”
How do you know it would turn into limerence? You’ve had other crushes, right? Or other attractions? Not all of them turned into limerence, right?
“Limerence to me seems like this sinister biological force that drags people down to the deepest pits of Hell. I’m not sure I want to go there again.”
I don’t want to go there again if things aren’t going to move into a relationship. No more eons of time wasted on pining for some unavailable person who cares so much less about me than I do about them.
Bear with me … this will be long … and I know you like length … that just opens the door, doesn’t it? 🙂 Since my last LE, I have felt the glimmer once. It was for a man I was in an activity with. I could feel myself getting riled up and weird. Fixated. Combing the activity site to see if his wife hadn’t signed up for things and he had so I could catch him alone. (Yes, I can hear myself.) I went to two events. I will admit I got gussied up/sexed up for the second one after meeting him at the first. And one day I decided it was best I didn’t go back. And I didn’t … and about … idk … 2 or 3 weeks later, I realized I hadn’t even thought about him. Thank goodness.
And then I had a big crush on a co-worker recently. The butterflies, like you mentioned with your friend. Hoping I’d see him, etc. What helped me from going completely off the deep end was that I couldn’t read if there was mutual interest. (The first guy in the activity was very flirtatious. Yes, in front of his wife. It was weird.) Until recently, when this second got really flirty and and touchy and oozed compliments. And you could have peeled me off the ceiling for about 2 weeks … but then I started to watch him more. Sure, if I was there and conveniently right in front of him, he’d flirt with me, but he was making no extra effort. And of course he’s not single. So … I’ve calmed down. And now I’d like him to go away. I hope they transfer him to another shift so I don’t have to see him. What’s the point?
You wrote in one of your other posts (which I can’t find) that your hormones may have been buzzed out with your LE. I wonder if I’m the same. I was able to squelch both of these instances pretty quickly and didn’t go off the deep end. Maybe you’d be able to do the same if you saw some danger signs. I don’t know if that means I’m more aware of limerence, don’t trust myself and have become psychotically guarded or I’m hormonally dead in that I’m 107. 🙂 It happens to women. Well, it happens to your side, too.
But time is still on your side. You’re only 42.
“I must keep the door closed. 😜”
I hear you.
“As you might be able to tell, I’m a tiny bit manic at the moment. I blame the very mild mania on the end of limerence. I feel super-alert. I’ve missed two nights’ sleep this week. ”
You did seem to be posting a lot.
How are you now?
@Marcia.
“You did seem to be posting a lot. How are you now?”
Mind feels razor-sharp. But I also feel like I have a headache. Apparently, I’m always going to have a lot going on in my head, limerent or not. 🙂
Do you know, participating in LwL over the last few years has really helped me come to a more balanced place psychologically. I think it may have helped me regulate my emotions even. I think it’s all the “reality-testing” that goes on here. I.e. run one’s thoughts by other people to find out whether one is delusional or not. And then discovering that others don’t hate one even if one is delusional! 😆
Also, it’s been extremely enjoyable being a “moral compass” at times and a “conversational leader” at other times, even if no one asked me to be those things, and I’m not qualified, and who among us has the right to judge, etc, etc? As Dr. David Perl says, trauma occurs in the context of relationships, and healing also occurs in the context of relationships. It’s been fun hanging out with “you loud and nitty-gritty, dirty little freaks”. (Another Pink reference). 🙂
@Marcia.
Postscript to my above comment:
The gay male friend of mine who gave me butterflies the other day is 38. In other words, he’s only four years younger than me, which is fine I think as an age gap. It made me feel a lot closer to him, and it also suddenly humanised him in my eyes. I wasn’t talking to some beautiful god. I was talking to a peer.
I cradled his (whiskery) face in my hands and told him he didn’t look 38. That made him very happy. He walked away with a spring in his step.
We got on the topic of age because I was joking about being “older and fatter”. (Hey, I looked good at 38, too. Who didn’t look good at 38?) I like to get in all the age jokes and the fat jokes first! It’s, you know, all part of my legendary self-deprecating charm. 😇
Sammy,
“The gay male friend of mine who gave me butterflies the other day is 38. ”
Any chance of a romance? He’s a friend and he gave you butterflies? What more do you need in life? 🙂
Meant the former to follow the latter
This was an overplayed 70s song but I think it sums up limerence. The feelings and pain become bigger than life. No contact is the best way to snuff it out and get on with life.
https://youtu.be/sr_yaZQmRzA?feature=shared
I haven’t thought about that song in years.
I think that song is more unpleasant than the pain of limerence.
Boy you don’t mince words lol. I used to find it irritating but when I really listened to it it made me cry. The lyrics “I wish I’d never met you. You’ll never come again” It’s the false belief that LO is this special person and nobody can match up. It’s all a lie but feels like truth and hurts.
haha, said half in jest.
I lived through the 1970s and you were not kidding when you said that it was over-played.
@Snowphoenix.
“Wish you a very smooth sailing in your new romance! If you wish, let us know your good news.
Wish the situation relating to your dad’s health is not adding more stress in your life…”
No. Sorry. You misunderstood. Not sailing into any new romances. I am retiring from romance permanently. Unlike you, I am not a rosy-grown tomato. 🙂
You and everyone else probably can’t follow the workings of my mind, because my mind is confused and confusing in the best of times. That doesn’t matter. I am happy if people sometimes benefit from random things I say, even if they misinterpret those random things. (I’m sure people only read my writing to think about their own lives anyway. People are inherently self-centred). 😎
Basically, after careful analysis of all the facts, I’ve only experienced limerence once. That is to say, I’ve only had my brain “hijacked” by a fantasy once. It was for my straight male friend I met at school when I was fourteen and he was fourteen too. We were classmates, but we weren’t close friends. (No gifts and no physical affection. That was ANOTHER friend with bad boundaries). What my LO did have was pretty eyes and a smirk. 😉
The infatuation was involuntary (obviously, as per the definition of limerence). I went through all five stages – glimmer, honeymoon, addiction with highs and lows, dependency, recovery. Addiction and dependency were excruciatingly painful. Actually, addiction was okay and dependency was the real scourge. I was probably in dependency stage between the ages of 23 and 30. Had a massive setback at age 27, due to renewed contact. At 30, I decided to get my act together. I’ve spent the last 12 years in recovery, and I’m finally where I want to be i.e. free. 🙂
I don’t wish to go through limerence ever again – not even the so-called “happy” version. I don’t need ecstasy, and I don’t care for despair. I’m thrilled by how stable my moods are now. Getting over limerence was the best thing that ever happened to me. Hopeless romantics may keep their **cough, cough** bliss. (How’s that for a bit of complimentary snark? Am I sounding like a stoic yet? You might have to let me join your club. But who are we kidding? I’ve always been more stoical than you. You’re the middle-aged woman who throws toddler-esque temper tantrums on online blogs when people don’t agree with you). 😁
My reunion with my gay male friend was interesting to me not personally but because it was an ah-ha moment. I realised that this is how happy mutual limerence is supposed to begin between a heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman. (My friend is the honorary woman in the setup- initiates communication first. I was playing the man’s role – wait for the woman’s signals, maintain a respectful distance until acceptance is indicated).
Do you see how hard it is to go through life as a gay man? Everything that happens to me has to be translated from heterosexual-ese into homosexual-ese and then I have to translate it back from homosexual-ese into heterosexual-ese. It’s literally like being bilingual in a culture that’s monolingual). 😉
As it so happens, my friend and I are both gay, so that was the end of our mating dance. My friend did ask me very anxiously whether I remembered him. And I was like: “Come here, and give me hug. How are you?” And he was like: “Ah, so it is you. I thought it was you. Couldn’t recognise you because of that truly disgusting beard you’ve grown.” And I gave him a kiss on the cheek and sent him on his merry way. I realised in hindsight he didn’t hug me and he didn’t kiss me. But he did let me hug and kiss him. (I know. I have a weird relationship to all my gay male friends. I think it’s called ‘friendship’. But I’m also like family to them). 🙂
I thought it was interesting my aging body is still capable of experiencing butterflies. But I’m only interested in butterflies from a strictly academic point of view. I thought butterflies would no longer be possible after one exits the altered state of limerence. (I must be right at the tail-end of limerence, and my body still has a few nervous twitches around highly attractive people to whom I feel some nebulous emotional connection). 🙂
I’d like to see my friend one or two more times and then never again. I want to squeeze the last few drops of dopamine out of our acquaintance. But there is no risk of addiction. I don’t want him as a partner. He is a ‘wild thing’. And I don’t believe in catching ‘wild things’ and forcing them to live in captivity. He belongs in the wild, and in the wild he shall stay. (You need to watch the film “Breakfast at Tiffany’s”, starring Audrey Hepburn, to understand my moral philosophy). 🙂
Furthermore, I can’t fall in love again even if I wanted to. My dopamine levels can no longer rise above a certain level after years of overproduction (i.e. destructive limerence). I’m like a singer who can’t hit certain high notes anymore due to damage done to my vocal chords from aging and excessive touring.
I ran into my barista friend today. He called me “mate”. I was positively thrilled.
Fenna from YouTube channel FollowingFenna talks about “files” people have in their brains. We have a “friendship file” and we have a “romance file” and so-on. Often, in limerence, we get these files mixed up (sometimes on purpose!). 😉
I was pleased to note my barista friend has me in his “platonic friend file” and not his “romantic love file”. I don’t need to worry about him, nor he me. Also, he spent about half an hour flirting with the girl who was ahead of me in line. Kind of a dead giveaway regarding one’s sexual orientation, don’t you think? I saw nothing. I heard nothing. I studiously admired the cupcakes in the display cabinet. I am a true gentleman, contrary to anything you’ve heard. I don’t throw toddler-esque temper tantrums in public. I’m not a rosy-grown tomato. 🙂
Dad is fine. His health seems to be stable for the time being. Actually, he’s happier than I’ve ever seen him. We often watch episodes of the British comedy “Doc Martin” together on TV. Also, we watched a Guy Ritche gangster show together. Never thought I’d be a fan of Guy Ritchie. But it was great. Gorgeous cinematography. Amazing acting. Bucketloads of gratuitous violence. And a hauntingly beautiful air of fatalism that is strangely comforting to people who are confronting loss in their own lives. I almost cried when they blew up a car. 🤣
Have you figured out what limerence is yet? No, don’t tell me. I don’t think I actually want to know your definition. (More complimentary snark). 🙂
P.S. Say “hi” to the thought police for me. 😜
Sammy,
As DrL pointed out, you went over the line two days ago by so unfairly attacking many kind Lwlers who, despite their own LE pains, make great efforts to understand and help fellow suffering limerents, including you.
I think you owe them (except me) an apology, regardless of what sounding reasons behind your “behavior”…. As a “true gentleman”, you know what needs to done, right?
I might be a GMO accidental 🏵️ 🌱 🍅 , growing in “unnatural” speed, so you need NOT worry about me in any regard. I have my Unconscious and intuition beside me….
Sammy,
“I am retiring from romance permanently. Unlike you, I am not a rosy-grown tomato. “
Retiring from Romance 😳 ? How sad❗️ Romanticism in its broader senses should and need to be always in all life aspects; otherwise, life has astronomically fewer colors 😱! I’d like to be a rosy-grown 🍅 in spirit for eternity, period❗️
“You and everyone else probably can’t follow the workings of my mind, because my mind is confused and confusing in the best of times. “
I think you’re accurate here! All of us here, probably including DrL, can’t follow your mind a lot of times. I’m very respectfully asking you now, “do you think it has something to do with Autism or something else?”
We’re not in your head at any given moment, thus unable to comprehend its lines, curves, sudden dips or rises. Sometimes your words exude brilliance; sometimes little common senses… You wish us to be able to appreciate and compliment your theories. (Personally, I’d rather peek into your purple lines…).
“That doesn’t matter. I am happy if people sometimes benefit from random things I say, even if they misinterpret those random things.”
If misinterpretation could bring benefits of any kind, don’t think those naive/ignorant people are either a child or a genius? Don’t you feel unexpectedly appreciated? Unlike Scarlet, I might be a subconscious, random opportunist, who would grab even a “mirage” rope suddenly appeared in front of my eyes and use it imaginatively for my own mental/spiritual benefits — to climb out the limerence hell in LwL.
“(I’m sure people only read my writing to think about their own lives anyway. People are inherently self-centred). “
A listener more than often interprets any speaker’s words according to his/her own needs at the time or based on his/her usual psychology, personality, experiences… Words are a mirror. But you can’t say that the speaker’s intention or life is not in the listener’s mind to be speculated….
“I’ve spent the last 12 years in recovery, and I’m finally where I want to be i.e. free. “
That’s indeed remarkable, considering the length of the fight/struggle! I tried, but still can’t imagine how you have endured for that long! How did you function at the daily basis with the same utterly impossible LE hanging over in your head❓Nothing else could distract you or get you out of it 🤔 ⁉️ Did you ever try to travel far to or live in other places/cultures to take your mind off this LE?
“I don’t wish to go through limerence ever again – not even the so-called “happy” version. I don’t need ecstasy, and I don’t care for despair. “
I don’t think any of us, having learned about and experienced so painful limerence, would volunteer to go through another LE. But if not in high-alert, one may slip into it again. I had several Glimmers after coming to LwL, but each one lasted shorter and shorter, because the T mind could watch and analyze it. Analysis can kill all sorts of emotions.
“I’m thrilled by how stable my moods are now. Getting over limerence was the best thing that ever happened to me. “
I’m glad to hear your stable mood! By nature, I’m excitable even over small, routine matters — got genes from Granny and Dad. I like being in stably joyful, content, and peachy 🍑 moods, not gray with a low-grade depression/sleepiness, or stoic face.
“Hopeless romantics may keep their **cough, cough** bliss. (How’s that for a bit of complimentary snark? “
I think I’m still a conscious romantics and glad/choose to be one; otherwise, how am I going to play with purple words — one kind of purposeful living ⁉️ Marcia mentioned the concept “romantic friendship” which I had never heard before. I like it much better than “platonic friendship” — it’s so poetic ❗️😋
“Am I sounding like a stoic yet? “
Nope! Not yet!
“You might have to let me join your club. But who are we kidding? I’ve always been more stoical than you. “
Not quite yet. Disagree — “S” in Stoic needs to be capital‼️ If you’re even 45% of Stoic, there would be no head blowoffs in the past weeks!
“You’re the middle-aged woman who throws toddler-esque temper tantrums on online blogs when people don’t agree with you. “
But my spirit is the youngest in LwL among the regular contributors! 👧 True, when I first came to LwL, I was an ignorant, naive, mental toddler (bumping into a grumpy, “cough, cough” grandpa 🙄) But as a GMO 🏵️ 🌱 🍅 , I grew faster than Millilim Falcon, in front of entire LwL eyes. But your fixed, old eyes seemed to be always stuck in pages of the old calendar. One day in your calendar is equaling a lightyear in the 🍅’s growth ❗️
“but because it was an ah-ha moment. I realised that this is how happy mutual limerence is supposed to begin between a heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman.”
But without that “ah-ha” moment, how could a couple ever get together and carry out human species or weave a deep affectionate connection? I’m 286 yrs old but I can see glimmer in men’ eyes, then I felt “flattered” for a few hours (caught a middle-aged one last Friday at work). I’d sincerely smile when I see other couples, young or old, have their PDA moments. Life is beautiful in those transient moments.
“Do you see how hard it is to go through life as a gay man? “
I don’t think I can completely understand, although I had my own dilemma to deal with, but not nearly hard as yours. I’m more masculine for a heterosexual women and more feminine for heterosexual men; it’s hard to have equal, substantial friendship with either group…
“It’s literally like being bilingual in a culture that’s monolingual.“
This I can relate to very well…. I have both Eestern and Western cultural pulls a lot of the time, and I had to swing back and force or combine them both, confusing a mono-cultural mind a great deal on either shore; it might be a reason I remain a lone wolf or ❄️ 🐦🔥 in a “no-man” nest.
“I have a weird relationship to all my gay male friends. I think it’s called ‘friendship’. But I’m also like family to them.”
I think I can picture that. I mentioned once that through a gay friend (who had an EA crush for me during my LE6), I got to know 5 gay men (all good looking in their 20s-30s) and attended their Christmas dinner party at one of their homes. I (only female present) very much liked the family atmosphere — warmer, easier, more relaxed, more humorous than being with women group only (some women’s chats could be quite tedious while I ideally wanted to sit down with Socrates). No experiences with lesbian or bi women.
“I thought it was interesting my aging body is still capable of experiencing butterflies.”
Your aging body at 42 with “disgusting beard” ❓😳 I think butterfly effect can take place even in one’s 90s, based on the London’s subway story: 89 yrs woman ment 92 yrs men, and fell in love instantly. Got married in 3 weeks/months?
“But I’m only interested in butterflies from a strictly academic point of view. “
Gee, always theorizing? Although your brilliant theories sound very logical and plausible, but in reality, those theories would manifest in obvious/subtle, unclaified visceral ways, since us human beings are NOT strictly logical but visceral creatures❗️ God knows what has made us so unpredictably emotional and so creatively mental most of the time, unlike any other kind of mammals!
“I thought butterflies would no longer be possible after one exits the altered state of limerence. “
I disagree with you on this without enough proofs. I suspect butterflies in chest are not connected exclusively to limerence, but simply physical or spiritual attraction that is not always related to one’s sexual pulls.
“(I must be right at the tail-end of limerence, and my body still has a few nervous twitches around highly attractive people to whom I feel some nebulous emotional connection). ”
Charlie Chaplin had a kid when he was 82! Based on DrL’s data, I don’t think pair-bonding drive is only limited to sexual attraction; it could include mental and spiritual attraction as well. So butterfly phenomenon can take place at any age. I’m still getting glimmer at age of 286, even in Venice a couple of weeks ago😊…. Well, I’m a bird, 🐦🔥 so perhaps exceptional 🙃
“You need to watch the film “Breakfast at Tiffany’s”, starring Audrey Hepburn, to understand my moral philosophy.”
Watched it several times. I was never that Holly at any stage of my life: Nietzsche ruined my budding interests in material world at age of 13, and after migrating here as a young adult with broken English, I had to survive/thrive in all sorts of expected situations and unexpected adversities; where did I have time and opportunities⁉️ At one point, I had it all, but still could not get rid of that puzzling, melancholy longing….
“Furthermore, I can’t fall in love again even if I wanted to. “
No one CAN say “never” in this regard❗️Any kind of “Fall” is not subject to one’s mental control; no one can consciously fall. One can only say, “I can’t, or I won’t walk into love again even if I wanted to.” Are you a some kind of god who can control his neural activity now?
“My dopamine levels can no longer rise above a certain level after years of overproduction (i.e. destructive limerence). “
Everyone’s DNA is unique. I don’t think even science can know its strength or longevity. Also, dopamine can be healthily and moderately produced from physical exercises and meditations, which I did not know previously until I practiced. But you know your body, I can’t deny/negate your claims; I’m only saying you may not know it accurately, only with your logical brain.
“I am a true gentleman, contrary to anything you’ve heard. I don’t throw toddler-esque temper tantrums in public. I’m not a rosy-grown tomato. “
😶 no comment…🤐 Other Lwlers’ eyes are brighter and clearer than the blind 🧬 🏵️ 🌱 🍅!
“We have a “friendship file” and we have a “romance file” and so-on. Often, in limerence, we get these files mixed up (sometimes on purpose!). “
I could never mix my “friendship” and “romance” files, because I could not cultivate that Glimmer no matter what I did. So without the initial Glimmer, a man never gets to the romance file. And only one LO at a time could occupy in romance file. He could be kicked out only when following LO pushed into the door; usually the latter LO was more potent….
“Dad is fine. His health seems to be stable for the time being. Actually, he’s happier than I’ve ever seen him. “
That’s nice! He’s wise to be able to enjoy every moment he has with those dear to him. Glad that you could spend much time with him! I’d pay anything to spend time with Dad in his last few months in the world…
I never heard of “Doc Martin” or Guy Ritche’s shows, until you just mentioned. If you can get “a hauntingly beautiful air of fatalism”, it must have something very touching… which specific gangster shows you are talking about?
“Have you figured out what limerence is yet? No, don’t tell me. I don’t think I actually want to know your definition. (More complimentary snark). “
However I define it, or you define it, or anyone else defines it, is not as important as how to get out of limerence! I am just grateful that I’m out of its tail tip, not yet long though. It feels somewhat surreal, due to its “dramatic” spins and purges…. (Not the same as Speedwagon’s sudden “switch”).
“P.S. Say “hi” to the thought police for me. “
I will ⚔️ “the thought police” 🤺 for all my LwL friends!
@Snowphoenix.
I didn’t read your post because I suspect it contains all manner of “oof” remarks. You are so good at sticking your foot in it without even realising it. I know you may mean well, but you’re not very good at expressing yourself in a tactful, thoughtful, respectful, compassionate way.
Look, here’s the deal – limerence is a very tricky topic. Many people can be highly suggestible when they’re in an altered state. On the one hand, I don’t think it’s wise to encourage people to get overexcited about things they shouldn’t get overexcited about. Reinforcing people’s misguided hopes isn’t loving behaviour. On the other hand, it’s not really helpful to encourage people to dwell on their anger and resentment either. Resentment is as much a mental trap as hope and excitement can be. However, at the same time, people need to be given some space to express their excitement and their anger without being penalised.
You claim to be a stoic, Snowphoenix. That’s cool. Being a stoic is absolutely fine and admirable. However, sometimes the way you talk about stoicism makes you sound like you’re gloating about it. You sound like you’re bragging that you have superior self-control to everyone else, and that you’ve never experienced “hysteria”. Maybe you do have superior self-control to other people and maybe you’ve never experienced this mysterious thing you call “hysteria”. However, it’s not very considerate or compassionate to brag about your superior self-control/lack of sensitivity on a site full of people who are struggling with a variety of problems.
I know you really want to be included, and love participating in group conversations, and enjoy showing off how much you know. (Or how much you think you know). However, trying to one-up people all the time isn’t a great way to go about it. It’s like your overeagerness is your downfall.
You have a tendency to engage in debates (really, thinly-disguised fights with other readers) for all the wrong reasons. You don’t disagree with something because you have something worthwhile to contribute, and some really valid points to make. You disagree with people for the sake of disagreement alone. Can you see how that sort of behaviour is a bit counterproductive, and makes people not want to engage with you?
Also – a word to the wise – please don’t flirt with the married men at LwL – no, not even in jest. Adam has enough problems already without you confusing his poor brain. All the men and women here are trying to do the right thing, especially the partnered ones. I imagine people who don’t care about doing the right thing wouldn’t waste time on a site such as LwL.
You’re not a troublemaker by any means. No offence, but I don’t think you’re bright enough to be a true troublemaker. What you are is a lonely woman in midlife who craves attention and maybe a bit of male validation. You are also hungry for the chemical rush that infatuation can provide, which is an understandable-if-not-entirely-noble reason for dating. 🤣
As a purposeful living exercise, I would like you to reflect on your own behaviour and on the impact your behaviour may have on others. In addition, I would like you to ask yourself what you truly want out of life.
Here’s a free life hack: letting go of your need to be defiant and oppositional at all times will actually liberate you physically and psychologically and not limit you. Always being in opposition to other people is a great way to build walls around yourself. Only you have the key to release yourself from that self-built prison. The reason you are so oppositional is that you don’t actually have a strong identity.
I’m glad that you have made some friends at LwL. If nothing else, our conversations have provided entertainment for other readers and made them feel slightly less pathetic about their own quotidian lives. 🙂
Wǒ de Yīngwén búgòu liúlì, yě búgòu dìdào. Nà zánmen jiǎng Zhōngwén ba!
😊
Yep @sammy
I highly recommend Snatch if you haven’t seen it – great Guy Ritchie film, killer cast and soundtrack
Incredible fight scene,not to be missed. Epic choreography of gratuitous violence
😊
And Brad Pitt without shirt.
@Mila.
Sorry for calling your posts “boring”. Your posts aren’t boring. Your posts are beautifully written. What I meant to say the other day is that I can hear the frustration you sometimes feel toward your X/LO in your posts. 🙂
🙏🏿 🦋 🏆
I knew Brad Pitt would get me some points 😉
Also, Sammy, I think too that some of my posts must have been or are boring, I bored myself actually…
But then, I wasn’t here to entertain people, I needed to vent and self-analyze in a truly boring way…
Why I‘m here now, I’m not so sure. Habit and nice people, I guess!
@Mila.
“I knew Brad Pitt would get me some points 😉”
😆
@csc.
Ah, thank you for the tip. 🙂
🍧,
I hope today has been better to you than yesterday was. I hope you got it resolved with some ‘coming to senses’ as you thought may happen. If not, then please know that I/we remain thinking of you and here for you, in the weird way that our 👻 presences can be.
Speaking of weirdness, this might make you chuckle. Despite the farming joke, I do work in an urban area. What did I see today in morning rush hour on the main ring road around the town? Only a 🚜. And not just any 🚜. Nope, a 🚜 painted up in the *exact* same colour scheme as my LwL 🚜symbol. I mean, what are the chances, really?!
🚜,
Thanks for caring. 😊 I was going to post an update a few hours ago. But it would have been different than the one now..! You and Mila and Snow were right, I needed to give him time to process it (or to sulk, as he called it).
The waiting was a little excruciating, I will give you that! I still don’t know where it’s going or if it’s wise that we get more involved when we have those differences that we discussed here previously. But I guess we are risk takers – for better or for worse…
And that’s great that you saw your symbol irl in the middle of the city. That’s a john deere btw with those colors. You see, I do know my stuff!
I was on here writing to ❄️ and just spotted this. And that’s great news! Quite a long sulk, I will venture to say. Bloomin men eh?
“But I guess we are risk takers – for better or for worse…”
Precise-ment! Enjoy it, play it by ear, see where it leads, don’t get your expectations too high to quick. Maybe just go to the hiking trail again 😅 . I know this must feel weird as a place to update on stuff like that. But it’s good to keep up with your news. I feel like the group of people you named above have lived through quite a lot together via LwL (smashed up bars, welders, Ricky, Sophie etc).
“That’s a john deere btw with those colors”
👨🌾👩🌾😂😂😂😂😂RIHL. You must be paying attention to those sponsored ads.
Hi Trifles,
Glad it’s sorted! There will always be differences between partners, the important thing is how willing each one is to accept them and make the effort to understand.
I think it sounds good- first disagreement has been survived in a good way…
🚜,
Synchronicity! Synchronicity, and Synchronicity!
It’s been proven true, again and again….
🍨, take a steamy, hot bath until you feel like fainting…. Then there won’t be any sulk feelings… trust me on this!
Be patient! It’s the best chance to practice Stoicism, and mentally prepare or even accept for the possible worst — he has dropped you off, what are you going to do now??
If he already did silently, then he’s proven to be NOT your match, period! You don’t want to deal with anyone so close-minded, quick-to-judge, and unforgiving….
Taking risks is fine and exciting, as long as you truly do NOT Expect a certain type of results, but enjoy every step in the journey, even if some steps are very bumpy.
I’m Not a good cheerleader like 🚜 , but I’m sending you a big 🍅 🫂
🍨,
If MR does come back and resume the dating, perhaps you want to talk with him about an unwritten, agreed rule — you two would honestly ask about and talk out when unexpected miscommunications or misunderstandings occur?
As DrL points out, that at any given moment, no one knows for sure what’s going on in others’ head, even if the other side seems to smile at you or laugh. When things smooth sails, that’s okay; but when one side sense something is off, or gets confused, or be triggered somehow, I think the best solution is to ask other side. Truly open-minded and empathic people (like my father) would welcome your inquires (since you care about the relationship) and understand your uncertainties or concerns.
In my experiences, poor/inadequate communication and biased assumptions, accompanied by one’s deep/hidden insecurity, are the two worst factors that would soon or later ruin a possibly workable relationship — let’s say two parties like each other enough to begin and continue.
You two had good chemistry, right?
🦜, My above message was a little vague. But yes, he came back after 48 hours of ‘sulking’ (his word). LaR, I’m glad you agree that’s a bit long!
We are due for a talk, relating to the underlying issues that the misunderstanding brought up. I am treading carefully because it does seem that we have been through a few roller coaster dips and climbs even in this short time. There is still much I don’t know about him. But I know he’s a good guy and I have an open mind.
That is good advice about the communication! The thing I admire about him is his emotional intelligence, but I guess the flip side to that is the sensitivity. He will always ask me how I am feeling about us, and that’s so nice. I’m not as good at talking… and feelings… and all that “mushy stuff”. 😜 But I will have to practice, even at this advanced age!
🚜, that’s true – we have a collective memory here of L’Amoors and all. Almost as if it really happened …in 👻land.
Have a good day both, and everyone!
“The thing I admire about him is his emotional intelligence, but I guess the flip side to that is the sensitivity. He will always ask me how I am feeling about us”
I say this with the best of intentions here 🍧 – tread lightly with this, and establish boundaries that *you* are happy with early. I admire emotional intelligence too, as you well know. But it feels quite early on for him to be always asking how you’re feeling ‘about us’.
I speak as someone who used to be quite like this in relationships, but mainly grew out of it. Why was I doing it? Bottom line – insecurity. Some women I dated told me it was too much and I was being too over-sensitive. Sometimes at the early stages we should just ‘roll with it’ and see where it goes rather than ‘paralysis by analysis’.
It is also early for him to think he can strop with you for 48 hours.
I am not trying to be the harbringer of doom here, just perhaps try to affirm some of what you’re feeling doubtful about if you’re in the whole situation of “devil on one shoulder, angel on the other, both whispering things in different ears”. See what some IRL friends say about it for comparison, if you’re talking to any of them about it. I’d really like this to go well for you, but it is important that the established communication boundaries suit you as well as him.
LaR, you are so astute. Truly! Thank you for taking the time to consider these issues for me. Yes, the reasons you outline are reasons why I say I’m treading carefully.
Also, after I posted, I thought about amending that part where I said he asks about how I feel about us. It’s more like he checks how I am feeling in general. But his style is sometimes a little foreign to me. He is overly attentive to my needs and feelings. Yet I’m kind of curious to find out how he came to evolve that way. Because from what he says, he hasn’t always been like that…
But that is a very good point that I shouldn’t just try to adapt to his communication style because I feel that my own is stunted in comparison. I should also communicate my boundaries and what I’m comfortable with and when. I have done this earlier and he has accepted it, but I feel our styles are pushing up against each other again.
“It is also early for him to think he can strop with you for 48 hours.”
That’s what TO said! 🙈 But I really don’t think he was playing with me about that. He seemed to be really hurt. Which is also an amber flag in a way (that he seemed to be willing to call it quits). But point taken, I will be careful.
@Trifles.
I don’t want to intrude on your conversation with LaR, because it sounds like you guys have a good thing going. 🙂
I do want to say something nice about INTPs, though. My INTP friend – he was an amazingly kind person. He’s the friend who showered me with gifts and didn’t mind (non-sexual) physical affection. I might have had a crush on him, but no limerence.
Basically, like my INTP friend, I don’t think you’re “stunted” in terms of your emotional intelligence or your communication style, and I don’t think you should view yourself in that light either. INTPs apparently have very deep feelings which they can’t always articulate.
For example, my INTP friend used to apologise for “rambling” when talking to me. Sometimes, I had to ask him: “Are you feeling intense emotion X in relation to such-and-such?” or “Are you feeling deep emotion Y concerning so-and-so?” And he would always say: “Yes!” and “Yes!” 🤣
What my INTP friend couldn’t do a lot of the time is spontaneously explain his feelings to me. I always had to prompt him. I got a bit frustrated with him at times because I felt like his brain wasn’t capable of generating original thoughts, and maybe he was just agreeing with me for the sake of agreeing with me! I mean, I didn’t want to put words into his mouth, or impose my own feelings onto him. I was genuinely interested in hearing his feelings described in his own words. But he really struggled to put stuff into words.
Perhaps you feel the same way around your gentleman friend or in general? Ah, the perks and the pitfalls of being an INTP! 🙄🙂
🚜, coming back to this, to set your mind more at ease. 😉
I said: “He is overly attentive to my needs and feelings. Yet I’m kind of curious to find out how he came to evolve that way (…)”
I got some insight from him about this (he volunteered it), and it makes sense to me. It just makes him more endearing to me. We all have our accumulated experiences and baggage, and they define how we act, for better or for worse. For him, I think it’s – mainly – for the better.
As an aside, MJ, I hope you will forgive me. But I think I might be dating an “MJ”, someone who used to be a bad boy, but whose experiences have shaped him into the sensitive soul that he is now… It’s funny how I relate people (even here!) to others I know. Like to me, LaR is a kind of TO in my head, due to their similarities (emotional intelligence, etc 😉).
“I really don’t think he was playing with me about that [the 2 day silence].”
This too ties in with what he now revealed to me. But LaR, I’m glad you brought up that point of view (that he shouldn’t “strop” with me for 2 days). It’s good for me to look out for myself too, and not just assume that I am always in the wrong. And that people’s actions can affect me negatively, even if there are justified reasons for them.
Also, you people here don’t know how uncomfortable I am talking about – or to start with, embracing – feelings irl.
🍧😜,
If you two have talked and worked all this out, I’m so very pleased to hear it. If you can have this kind of moment early doors and work it out, that’s a *really* good sign. All notes of caution from before still apply, but you’re a wise 🦉, and if it feels good to you, I’d say trust it. I trust the INTP instinct.
“LaR is a kind of TO in my head, due to their similarities”
Look, I’ll go soft now (fair bit of F in me 😅) – I am glad beyond words that we found each other here 🍧. (How’s that for making someone who doesn’t do emotions easily feel awkward?! I know, I know, kill me now!). As much as you might think I you with how TO might be thinking, so you also did with me and MFF. (Its funny – a couple days ago I so nearly asked you ‘what does TO think?’ (re new guy). Then I held back wondering how much TO’s opinion might be biased and now mattered to you).
MFF is ‘E’, so expresses herself more easily, perhaps. She never really shuts up tbh. As an ‘I’, I like that in her as it avoids awkward silences. But she still doesn’t really express true emotion all that much, and she benefits from that thing like Sammy said about you – someone saying: “you’re feeling X about Y, aren’t you?”.
If you can turn that into a strength with MR (and it is an ‘if’) that could be such a great strength. I know MFF appreciates that I can do that for her (you told me as much once, and it helped me understand and unpick the dynamic between her and I). The only difference is she wasn’t trying to be in a relationship with me!
I also wanted to tell you that I think I am in the best territory with her I have been in for a long time. Not feeling limerent but the friendship is in a much nicer place now after a very rocky ‘adjustment’ phase.
You keep on looking out for yourself with this new development, but also trust yourself and let the ‘purposely naive livin” play out. You go girl!
🎩, I’m so glad to hear you’ve found some solid ground and your LE is almost out of the building. That must not have been an easy time!
And thanks for the cheerleading. 😊
“Then I held back wondering how much TO’s opinion might be biased…”
Yes, I did think his opinion was a little biased (“Don’t let him play with you, you don’t have the time or inclination for that”), but then you said pretty much the same thing! 😜
“If you can turn that into a strength with MR (and it is an ‘if’) that could be such a great strength.”
You mean him helping me voice my F side? He appears to be (just a first impression guess) ENF(P?). So he has the E and F in common with TO.
And no, you didn’t make me feel uncomfortable. Probably because I echo the sentiment. (See how coolly and neutrally I can express my F side? 😉)
Btw, 🗣️👨🏼⚕️➡️🤲🏼🍧👨🏼💻✉️➡️🎩 (just like 🦜). In case I find less and less limerence-related topics to discuss here.
It’s funny how much I forget of what we have talked about here – I don’t recall exactly what I said about MFF’s and your dynamic. (But I think I can piece it together.) And I had forgotten about purposeful naive livin’! Probably because it sounds so naive… I have a feeling MR would appreciate it though. I haven’t been able to demonstrate much of that attitude with him. But thanks for reminding me! There’s always a place for that in life.
Thanks 🍧 – I got you, and I will do that!
About what you said in the past about me and MFF … I don’t remember exactly, but it was something we discussed about how NTPs have lots of wacky fun ideas but often feel frustrated that others can’t understand them or share their enjoyment / enthusiasm for the ideas.
MFF certainly feels like that – like she is right a lot of the time (and drat it, she actually is) but misunderstood by people so that her good ideas don’t get the chance to ‘fruit’. I did a lot of listening and ‘translation’ (to F and J versions of the ideas – maybe I am really F??!) and directly and indirectly helped a lot of those ideas to fruit. I did too much of it because I was limerent and I got my ‘hits’ from it, to a level I can’t now sustain doing as much.
I think she just felt understood/seen by me, was the bottom line. You once told me you understood from the NTP standpoint how all that worked, and probably why she liked me. You kind of validated what I did for her but also helped show me how to start shutting the door on it if and when I wanted to.
I got as much from her as she did from me (confidence, spontaneity, alternative ideas, a space to think freely, etc). You will hear from my words that I am still very fond of her, and why it was so hard for me to start pressing the off switch. To press the off switch I had to find dislikeable things in her – I did it, and that didn’t sit easily either. It had to stay like that to stew for a spell. Now the challenge is to find happy middle ground. We are getting there I think.
Hi friends (especially my Limerence family)
Hope you’ll forgive the random post, but as I’m reflecting on my LE/LO, and coming to terms with being sucked in by a narcissist, little things that would have (if I’d had a better understanding) confirmed what I was dealing with occur to me.
One weekend a couple of months ago, we had a huge row. I’ll spare you the details. By this point I had disclosed to LO. The next morning she asked me what was going on, why I was so angry with her as she’d “not done anything wrong”. One of the things I told her was that I wanted her to acknowledge how hard it was for me as a married man to have these feelings for someone else. To recognise the battle I was having with this whilst trying to stay friends with someone I value. Her response will never leave me. One Whattsapp message, two words:
“Ok acknowledged”
That was it. Oh, she came back later with “I do understand” – she didn’t. That was clearly part of the regaining control and the supply strategy.
Thanks for listening.
To Justme:
I was married to a narcissist for 20 years. One of my biggest mistakes was making too much effort to try to explain things to him. I kept thinking that, if I could just explain things properly, he’d understand and then behave better.
Less is better when dealing with a narcissist.
Thank you for your insight Norma. Makes me realise that it isn’t only me.
Hope you are doing ok.
Jmmo
It’s definitely not only you. The more information you give a narcissist, the more ammunition you’re giving the person to use against you.
When I spoke to my ex, I learned to use the fewest number of words possible. When I elaborated, it tended to make things worse.
Thanks. I fully intend to give her no more words – let alone information!
Gosh JJM,
stay away from that woman, she goes on my nerves. „Acknowledged“, wow.
In my annoyance I gave you a new abbreviation 🤔
😂 you can abbreviate away!
I had a feeling that might irritate you about her. Unreal, right!
Thanks Mila. I appreciate it x
You know, I think she felt genuinely hurt by you and that’s why she reacted so curtly.
She felt genuinely hurt because she couldn’t get out of her own head for a second and see it from your perspective, but that’s a sign of remarkable lack of flexibility or empathy when someone already disclosed and now states again that he struggles.
It seems that she always takes the part of the hurt party. I don’t like that so much.
Mila
I mean in now way to disrespect your view of Jmmo’s situation but want to play the devil’s advocate for this situation as it is the biggest motivator for me to maintain NC the longer that it goes on.
Look at it from a LO’s perspective, disclosure or not; how are they going to feel getting the limerent’s undivided attention? Sure some people that crave attention will probably enjoy it. Even do things to garner more of it.
But what about the people that don’t? As time goes on as I try to contemplate my situation to be better prepared for the future I sometimes think she didn’t want the attention. At least not to the degree that I was dishing it out. She was just so kind of a soul that she never said anything to me. But, and I think I am good at it if I do say so, I missed any subtle cues. Whether it be tone, facial expression, or body language because I was too consumed with limerence.
Perhaps this is how Jmmo’s LO is feeling and her response to his disclosure came out the wrong way. If she is uncomfortable with the attention she is getting as a LO she may pull back, go cold or isolate herself until she can come to terms. Being the object of attention from a married man can be quite confusing I’d imagine, be the LO married or not. I would say give her time to come back around the way she wants and perhaps then their friendship can get back to where it was pre-limerence.
Hi Adam,
thanks for that thoughtful reply, I think I took a sudden dislike to Jmmos LO because I have to deal with a person her behavior reminds me of at work, but you are right, we only know Jmmos side of the story (Jmmo included).
I agree that we limerents judge everything from our skewed (not skewered, Bewitched) limerent perspective and LOs might feel crowded or at a loss how to behave.
But I don’t think Jmmos LO was uncomfortable with the attention since she kind of demanded it back once he decided to go on low contact, and was peeved when he didn’t want so much private banter and contact any more.
I don’t know, it’s really hard to act right and see everything in the right perspective, that goes for all human relationships.
Mila
I can’t say I have read all of Jmmo’s posts so I may have missed that about his LO and the attention he gave her and when he pulled back. I read his first post because of our similar circumstances. I saw others responded and were helping so I backed off so as not to spark anything about my own past limrence.
I guess I tend to have more empathy for LOs than I do us limerents. Being that in the 2 years I’ve been here I can think of only 3 actual LO’s that have posted here. Maybe it’s because I’ve never been on the other side of the coin so I tend to give LOs more leeway. Hopefully Jmmo and his LO can work through this and salvage their friendship.
You got his back so I know he’s got a good trainer in his boxing corner. Good job Mila! 🙂
Hi Adam (and Mila)
The back story here is that several months ago, I realised that our friendship was turning into something else as far as I was concerned. Knowing (instinctively) that it wasn’t reciprocated, and more importantly, I have an SO, I decided to back away. LO spotted this immediately and when I wouldn’t tell her why, became upset. At this point I felt that I had no choice other than to disclose, as I felt guilty. She was guessing all sorts of reasons which I couldn’t let her go on thinking, hence the disclosure. She saw to it that I came back.
Fast forward to 5 weeks ago, and to cut a VERY long story short, I’d had enough. My infatuation was at fever pitch, and she had done a few things over the intervening months which had upset/annoyed me. Again, it’s all in other posts should you want the detail. My head was a mess, I wasn’t sleeping, and it was affecting my core being. I tried to withdraw and hoped that she’d take the hint. But no. Early morning phone calls, random visits to my office, teams messages, WhatsApp messages , the lot. In the end, having spoken to @Mila, @csc and @Bewitched, I met with her at work and told her I needed space and why, and repeated the disclosure.She stood up and walked away, having criticised me for not being able to have a “normal working relationship”. Within a day she was messaging me again, asking if I was ok, etc. I messaged her a couple of times and she totally ignored me. I shouldn’t have, I know.
Then, nothing for 3 weeks. She went on leave and on her first day back, straight back to early morning phone call (which I ignored) and then just turned up at my office, then sent me a WhatsApp chastising me for being awkward.
I appreciate that you’re still only hearing my side, and that this summary may still not give a completely balanced overview. My hope is that you have a little more understanding of why our relationship has ended so badly – at least from my perspective.
And yes, thank Heavens for my Limerent family, especially @Mila, @csc, @Bewitched and @LaR.
Adam,
“I guess I tend to have more empathy for LOs than I do us limerents.”
IMO, you’re mixing up “empathy” with “compassion…Maybe it’s because I’ve never been on the other side of the coin so I tend to give LOs more leeway. ”
The classic definition of “empathy” is the ability to view things from someone else’s perspective. “Compassion” means you feel sorry for them.
Viewing things from an LO’s perspective involves a lot of speculation and presumption. At it’s core, empathy seems to be all presumption and speculation. You are not that person, no matter how similar you’re circumstances might be.
In Paul Bloom’s book “Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion,” Bloom argues it’s not necessary to understand someone or view things from their perspective to know what the right thing to do is or whether to feel sorry for them or not.
My grandmother instilled a “worthiness filter” in me. LO’s had to be a victim of bad luck vice bad judgment to be worthy of my consideration. Bad breaks were worthy of help, bad choices were moral failures for which you suffered the consequences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_Empathy
DrL has a number of blogs on “good LOs” and dodgy LOs. If one is a rescuer by nature, it’s understandable why they might be more sympathetic to an LO.
@Jmmo
Hi friend 🙂
When I read the timeline of your situation with LO again, I have zero idea if she’s a narc.
But, I do know, because you have said so, that she is not good for you. And you should not be around her. She is toxic…to YOU.
Who knows if she’s a narc. Honestly, does it even matter? What matters is whether you are going to move on, and you are. Personally, I have found that the healing I truly need, (and am still waiting to dawn completely on me) is when I can look at my situation with LO, and say, I did this. Me.
I am the one who went out of my own integrity. I am responsible for me. Nobody made me do it. I did it.
I believe you are doing the absolute right thing staying away from her. For whatever reason. Mostly, for your own sanity…she could be the sweetest, kindest, most giving and innocent person in the world, I would still say….”Stay away from that woman”. Because she is toxic. Completely toxic…..To YOU.
Xo and rah
Csc
Im on my ipad and have lost control of the capital letters haha
Hi csc 👋🏼
Absolutely. It really doesn’t matter. I’ve only gone into the whole narc thing to
Provide some details, as I wouldn’t want people thinking that I am being unjustly unkind (there I go again!)
Ultimately of course it doesn’t matter. Narc or not, she is poisonous to me, and it has taken much mental and physical stress, and feeling more helpless than I have in years to realise it. I become gradually more confident that I have reached that now. Although I know there’s a long way to go.
Dear friend, please do not worry. She is utterly blocked (Rah’d) on every available platform. And if she does get in touch at work I have an utterly professional way of dismissing her and keeping it work-based, lined up ready to go.
It matters not about her motives, they boil down to the same toxicity to me and my wellbeing.
I promise you I will “stay away from that woman”. Rah is here to stay!
How are you lovely??
Jmmo xx
LE,
Thank you for explaining the difference between empathy and compassion, I didn’t know!
L.E.
“If one is a rescuer by nature, it’s understandable why they might be more sympathetic to an LO.”
Whether it was a typo or not, by definition sympathy is what I was meaning. And yes being a repeated rescuer offender is definitely why I have more compassion for putting her in the position that I did.
And she was a “good” LO not dodgy or manipulative. At least from what I can glean in hindsight. Either way it doesn’t really matter now. I think as limerents because we were living in a fantasy we didn’t see what our actions actually caused. Most limerents probably think their actions are positive because how we go out of our way for our LO.
It would be very interesting for more LOs to find this place. I think if we see more from a LO’s side we won’t rationalize our actions for years after NC or for whatever reason we don’t see/talk to LO anymore. Maybe that’s why she hasn’t contacted me when she can just as easily as I can. Maybe it wasn’t a pleasant experience for her. No I am not fishing for closure again. Just saying, having a fairly equal amount of LOs and limerents would help both sides. Maybe sometimes LOs feel like a victim? I dunno, but it would be interesting.
“It would be very interesting for more LOs to find this place.”
Interesting and quite frankly terrifying.
Hi @jmmo
Well, I’m not so much worried, as giving you some support if you decide to focus more on yourself, and less on LO’s tendencies, as you go (I just have a feeling that is where you might take this, because you have been quite brave in your LE, and maybe will venture into that terrain when the time is fitting!)…
I definitely went into a “My LO was a thoughtless flake” space for a while. I was angry and upset. But, now, I’m more in the “Whoa. I have a LOT of sh*t to work through that is unrelated to LO” camp. And yet, several times a day, I’m awash in cravings, longing, painful wistfulness, or any other element from the LE grief smorgasbord. (Oh, yum.)
I am doing ok. I am not great, though. This is hard. Today I had a real thought of LO and that he will spend his spring looking for a girl, as most 30 year old men do. It made me very sad. But, I also hope he finds one. I don’t despise him. I just feel a sense of tragedy around the whole thing. I suppose I’m “blue” as they say.
One thing that occurred to me, is the ideas around all these LO’s in pain.
I am wondering, I don’t recall anyone ever worrying about a male LO in pain the way they worry about female LO’s in pain. Like, it’s sooooo wrong to hurt a female LO. Their feelings must always be considered!
Well, no. Nobody has taken me to task for possibly hurting my male LO. And I ghosted him, cold. But with you…and your female LO, somehow, it seems different. Like it’s worth wondering about.
Well, I am out on a limb here, as I think I probably often am, and toe-in the line…but…I say…it’s ok. They will all live. All the LO’s will live.
And as a female, I will say, women can handle all sorts of pain. And do. So, I am of the opinion none of us should worry about how our LO’s feel. That is up to them. And we should not use that as a reason to ruminate, or to delay moving on with our lives.
I am not against the other way – of keeping them in mind at all times, or trying to retain friendship. I am just wanting to ask the question if there is a double standard. And, to explore a little. Just popped into my head.
It’s such an interesting community here. I am fascinated by the subtle differences in how each of us handles this incredibly difficult situation…
I am ok. In and out. Trying to keep from getting into another minor LE to distract me. I’m going to keep free of men for a while…while I figure out wtf is actually happening to cause this pattern of limerence in my almost-50’s.
…sigh!
Thinking of you, dear 🙂
Rambling, I know….
csc
“It would be very interesting for more LOs to find this place.”
“Interesting and quite frankly terrifying”
We want them to only be mildly horrified and at the same time slightly flattered.. 😂
Csc 🤖,
“I am wondering, I don’t recall anyone ever worrying about a male LO in pain the way they worry about female LO’s in pain.”
I just want to provide you with one sample here: this bird 🐦🔥 worried a great deal about her male LOs & Limmies in pain, particularly the latter group, while limerents were decent, not narc-traits loaded nor male-chuviouistic…
Before you came to LwL, I briefly talked about my ‘xLO’s, most of them had strong femininity (aside from Narc LO3, 6, 4.5– Macho, open playboy). Feminine LO1, 4, 5 had some tear-fall built inside them, which would break my 35% narcissistic walls; I never felt as sad for myself as for them! I still can’t forget those bucks after bucks of tears, although they no longer make me sad. I had to convince myself repeatedly that it was Fate, it was not my fault that they felt so sad or “ruined”….
Unable to see any tear in Sensor ET in 7 years made me distrust him (intuitively I couldn’t trust any men/women who could not shred tears in front of me/others or in my imaginations/ envisions), yet I still felt deeply hurt when I pulled off two NCs to his face — I could not help see so clearly sadness in his eyes, which made me to break the both NC first, despite his detestable white & black lies and that the most hated word, “acknowledge” (that I’ve received your message…)
As a single child of two pathetically-driven perfectionist (A type) parents and COO’s idiot Red culture, I was not treated with any gender differentiated care/education both at home and in school. Disciplines or challenges for boys, as well as girls, were all applied to me, ie. I should not cry or weep — a sign of weakness.
We were encouraged to compete with boys even in physical strength and endurance in school or anywhere. I read exclusively classical male authors’ work from age of 8-25, so my mindset was heavily influenced by male mentality and sentimentality, ie. Works of Neitzsche and almost every major male authors in 19th century Russia and France. Only that I never looked like a boyish Tomgirl.
Coming back to your point. When I dealt with my LOs and limerents, I never thought, “Oh, this is what a girl/woman is supposed to feel, think, or do….” I felt joyful or sorrowful for them or myself without much gender (or age, or ethnicity) concepts and differences in my head.
I thought about what a human being was supposed to feel, think and do. Any human being, male or female, deserves compassion, especially if it was I who had possibly caused pains in them. I had gone up to two weeks feeling depressed, so sorrowful for my limerents, with whom I had to cut off — usually due to NO Glimmer. (But I never told them that I deeply felt sorry for them…. Why❓🧐)
I did not know in print what Buddhism or Stoicism was until I migrated to this country and went 7 more years in college and graduate school studying liberal arts.
I mean who wouldn’t rather hear …
“I am that special to you?”
Rather than ….
“So I am just an object to you?”
@Adam.
I agree “sympathy” is probably a better word than “compassion” in the above conversation. I think of compassion as something much more impersonal than sympathy.
I agree with Limerent Emeritus that empathy for the wrong people, or too much empathy in general, can be extremely destructive. Accurate empathy is really what people should be aiming for.
Do you know there is some evidence that suggests men typically fall in love with women when men are successful in solving women’s problems? The catch is women don’t fall in love with men in quite the same way. Successful problem-solving only makes the man in the equation fall in love. Women have different romantic triggers.
Maybe that’s what’s really going on with all the male rescuers and male caretaker types at LwL? You’ve successfully helped some woman with her problems, and your brain has promptly fallen in love/lust with said woman, while the woman herself hasn’t necessarily succumbed to strong feelings of any description i.e. a one-sided attachment aka the perfect set-up for limerence.
LOs are only objects while we’re emotionally dependent on them and scrutinising their behaviour for evidence of reciprocation. They are special to us, but they’re special to us for all the wrong reasons. I.e. we are addicted to them, and we’re not addicted to other people.
Dear csc
Although I know as much, my heart aches when I find that you’re “not great”. You clearly and unsurprisingly still have a lot of pain. That’s normal, and as others have said, I think that you & I will be in that situation for a while to come.
Thank you for the offer of continued support as I move away from LO and focus on my own wellbeing. It’s a hard one, because I’m still inclined to worry about her. However I will say that that is receding very quickly. I can actually see the point where I won’t care anymore. As you say – they/she (LOs) will be just fine.
“I definitely went into a “My LO was a thoughtless flake” space for a while. I was angry and upset. But, now, I’m more in the “Whoa. I have a LOT of sh*t to work through that is unrelated to LO” camp. And yet, several times a day, I’m awash in cravings, longing, painful wistfulness, or any other element from the LE grief smorgasbord. (Oh, yum.)” Absolutely, that’s why I am in therapy. Yes, there’s a lot of talk about her and how she has wittingly/unwittingly virtually brought me to my knees, but my actual longer-term focus is: what the hell is going on within me that makes me need this at various points in my life??”. So like you, I am very aware that the problem lies – in its biggest and truest sense – way beyond anything LO has said/done (or not).
“Trying to keep from getting into another minor LE to distract me. I’m going to keep free of men for a while…while I figure out wtf is actually happening to cause this pattern of limerence in my almost-50’s.”
Again, that could be me. I know exactly what you mean. I found myself being smiled at and talked to very warmly last week. She was beautiful – even in ways that LO is not. I have found myself constantly fantasising about this other lady since. I’m partly reminding myself that this is bad – “are you serious? Wtf are you even thinking this for??” and partly longing for that glimmer. I shall probably never see her again, which saddens and heartens me at the same time! Also, I have found thoughts of a girl in my last job, who I was very attracted to in a purely physical sense (no limerence) have cropped up a lot lately. I am sure that these are designed as a diversion from LO. At least I know and have recognised that.
I notice that you talk a lot about reaching 50. I’m interested to know why that is apparently so significant. I’m guessing it’s due to the milestone? I’m 54, and I promise you dear friend, it is just a number. The rules about “having your shit together, what is still wrong with you” are nonsense. If anything, it is a time of further and deeper reflection. What I’m saying is, please don’t let your age be another thing that you best yourself over the head with.
You are, as am I, healing. We can only do it at a pace at which our minds and bodies can be comfortable with. It hurts – hurts like hell. You are making such progress, and as I am not far behind you I take courage and strength from you.
I hope the you know that I root for you daily. You and my other LwL family have taught and given me so much. I will repay you csc.
Have a peaceful, productive and pleasant day.
Hugs and a huge amount of care.
Jmmo 🤗
Sammy
“Do you know there is some evidence that suggests men typically fall in love with women when men are successful in solving women’s problems?”
That wouldn’t surprise me at all. Every romantic relationship (and even some platonic or familial) I have had were attempts at solving problems and easing the pain of that woman. Even my own wife.
I think my wife said something along the lines of “Oh great here we go again” when I told her I found out that LO was divorced because of infidelity. She knows my triggers. And LO’s circumstances were a five layer cake for me. It is really something I have to work on.
“You’ve successfully helped some woman with her problems, and your brain has promptly fallen in love/lust with said woman, while the woman herself hasn’t necessarily succumbed to strong feelings of any description i.e. a one-sided attachment aka the perfect set-up for limerence.”
Very well said Sammy. And the single thing I need to sear into my brain for future female interactions. Thanks for taking the time to post this. As I said to someone else, I think my wife and I have finally gotten up the limerence hill and now can work to close the gap that limernce left. And I myself finally think we can do it.
Hi Mila
I think that you’re absolutely correct, which in my head lends to the argument that ultimately, as Snow said, she’s a narcissist, or at least has very strong tendencies.
I think it’s important to distinguish between extreme narcissism(npd), red flag behaviors and narcissist tendencies.
Someone with just tendencies can learn the errors of their ways and cultivate more empathy.
She’s beyond tendencies. The criteria for diagnosis in DSM is someone who admits that they have a problem which is affecting their lives. To quote Dr. Ramani, unless that happens they can’t “diagnose jerks”.
She has no empathy, is full of self importance, has grandiose ideas of herself, and is unwilling/unable to recognise or take any responsibility for her behaviour.
I have spent a lot of time studying this, partly for my own piece of mind. And whilst I’m no expert, she most certainly would in no way be willing or able to learn from any errors . There were no errors.
@🦜,
Could you point JMMO to that huge multi-part resource you once posted about identifying and dealing with narcs? I think it might have been just over a year ago, just before I started posting.
It is interesting to hear different views here from Adam and Mila – but Jmmo, I am a firm on team “she’s a Narc” from what you have told us.
🚜
Still singing it to Carmen.
I say this because I exhibited these behaviors for years due to being raised by(undiagnosed) mid and low functioning npds.
But I’m feeling MUCH better now!
For me, the red flags that are difficult for an npd to hide are:
– they have an extreme need to be the center of attention at all times
– sooner or later they show emotional immaturity and low impulse control (tantrums and impatience-even if they only have to wait 3 seconds for something)
– they often talk about how jealous people are of them
– they tend to have a max of 4 extreme opinions and NONE of them are neutral or indifferent (they love something, something is the’greatest ever’, they hate something, something is the ‘worst thing ever’
The article (I paid for) is here:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/signs-your-partner-doesnt-respect-you/#comment-52871
There are several parts in the same blog, (too long to be in one piece), you have to scroll down passing my conversation with Anna.
The Youtube site: https://youtu.be/ZaxwXUTa6PA?feature=shared
The guy might be a “genius” Ultra Narcissist — Narcissist in its highest degree. He knows inside out of an Ultra Narcissist, no kidding! At beginning, you’d be shocked to hear what he has to say.
I paid him $100 to see how narcissistic I was; result — 65% empathic traits, and 35% narcissistic with the strongest trait — Pride, which also saved me from making huge mistakes and kept me learning new stuff.
He also said that if you’re worried about being a narcissist, then you are NOT one. A pathological narcissist thrives on his/her narcissism with ZERO remorse. It’s an INCURABLE condition.
But DrL invents/defines the concept of Sensor, most of which naturally instigate adoration in you and passively enjoys your LE affection. Usually they do NOT actively chase you for your LE adoration, particularly when only LC is available. They may make some lukewarm efforts to “string” you, if you decide to go NC while still in the same vicinity. Usually, they have other suppliers around and rarely worry about getting more new ones.
Hi LaR, Adam, Jmmo,
I‘m not saying she isn’t a narcissist. I have no idea. I think my LO1 has narcissistic tendencies and strong ones, he might even be one, I have worked with him for decades and still do, and can state that without any emotion. I still wouldn’t dare to outright diagnose him.
I just think it was a wise „a propos“ from Adam because it’s generally a good idea to change perspectives and stay flexible and never forget that LOs are mostly not evil but people like us who might have no idea of the sway they have over us, because it helps us too. Maybe not in the phase Jmmo is in and maybe not with his LO, but even then it’s healthy to step outside for a second and see that they are normal people who are neither evil nor that interesting and attractive;)
Hi Mila, Adam and LaR
Thanks Mila. I do wonder what I’ve started. ultimately, from the research I’ve done and knowing her as I do, I’m happy to stick with the view that she is a narcissist.
Interestingly, I’ve just had this conversation with @csc, who made the very valid point that ultimately it doesn’t matter. What DOES matter is that her behaviours have affected me very deeply, and I want nothing more to do with her. I’m afraid that I’m not yet at the point of being able to look at it more dispassionately. As Adam said, hopefully that will come later. Right now my priority is disassociating myself from her and getting my life and my health back. As you know Mila, it has affected me that badly.
I think I’ve said enough about the narc thing now. It’s a really healthy debate, but not one that I’m currently inclined to labour. Thanks to everyone who has pitched in.
And Mila, I repeat what I said recently about how I value you. Thank you for being part of my LwL family xx
Jmmo,
I respect your wish to leave the narc debate behind (and @L, thank you for the hat-tip about how to use the terminology better – I learned from that)
Generalising:
1. a single LO rarely (nb. not never) asks for the attentions of a partnered limerent to start with. L.E. had a good phrase for this, something like “LO is a label, not a status”
2. when they get that attention (especially minus the complication of disclosure), it will feel nice to them and they will grow used to it (like Adam said) – and why wouldn’t they?
3. So when the limerent tries to let go, they are taking something likeable away from the LO
4. How the LO then responds probably says a lot for their character. That’s especially true if the limerent has disclosed or hinted – a weird unexplained ghosting of the LO is far murkier. The ‘kindest’ LO behaviour might be to allow LC or NC, the ‘unkindest’ to keep soliciting attention for selfish reasons.
But this is all very complicated. It has been a good discussion and made me think. ALL of us have no doubt done ill-advised random acts of kindness for our LOs, taken up their hobbies (there was some hilarious story hear in the long past about canoeing!), lavished too much attention on them. So we do take something nice away from them that we’ve trained them into getting (or the two have trained themselves into together)
JM, yours is one of the more cut and dried to me as you disclosed and asked for space, so she should respect that, full stop. It’s not like you have tried to blag your way out of it. What was just said between you and csc sounds a good way to go for you now mate.
@John Deere!
Thanks mate. You are absolutely right. She didn’t ask for it, she had it placed upon her. And that’s me as a Limerent with things to learn – something I’m working on. I guess that it all boils down to how she then fed off that and used it for her own satisfaction. That’s the point I’m making, and partly where my view (and it is only my view) of her “status” is derived from.
Yes, my chat with @csc is absolutely the way to go from here on in.
Hope you’re ok mate.
Hello… I just feel the need to update, and to, well… talk…. I really have no one here that I can talk to about this. I am sure this will just a ramble.
I know my LE is a bit unique… I am 65, she is 35, co-workers, both of us married, I have explained to LO that I get dopamine “hits” from her, and have even told her that I love her ( as a friend… no romantic feelings ), we are friends ( at least, I feel us as friends… I sometimes wonder how she feels )… mostly walking buddies ( pretty much 60-90 minutes walks daily ( yesterday over 2.5 hours!! )… maybe no walk today ( ☹ ☹ ☹ ) …. I need my hit!!
Even tho we interacted today 4 or 5 pleasant times today…. It is NEVER enough…. No such thing as enough, I have found.
I have told my SO all about LO…. SO is not super happy about it, doesn’t quite get the “limerence” thing, but knows I am addicted to LO, and need the “hits”, and gets that I cannot get enough of a hit . She mentioned this last night, even knowing LO and I had spent pretty much all afternoon together, she could see from my behavior that I was still “ suffering” . When I first disclosed to my SO a few weeks ago ( Limerence started about 7 months ago for me ) she was NOT good with it… I think she is thinking this is some kind of emotional affair ( and I am certain to everyone at work it looks like it )… but SO is being supportive of my obvious distress.
I am getting better ( daily walks and pleasant working together with LO helps keep me stable ) but am pretty much always in pain.
No walk today = misery and distress
Limerence is the worst suffering I have ever experienced, I am looking forward to this one day being over.
as an aside… I have grown to despise messaging… I cannot read her feelings that way… I have found out the “heart” emoticons dont mean to LO what they meant to me 🙁
So I ONLY do necessary work chat with her, and I delete the chat as soon as I can. This stops me from TORTURING myself re-reading them
Of course… this also mean loosing messages as a source of a “hit”…. BUT I am far more level and stable this way
Deleting her messages is a good idea. I’m curious, what does the heart emoji mean to each of you?
to me it meant / means an ” affectionate response ”
I have seen text messages she sent others at work… she used it as basically just a ” thumbs up” , nothing more… which is fine, but of course then I look back at our messages now in a different light
painful
Yes, that would be disappointing
Thanks for the update, New_To_Limerence. I wondered how you were doing. Your LO is a drug and you will suffer as long as you continue on your current trajectory. You will feel much better when you are on the other side of this struggle. The end of limerence feels like freedom.
I can’t imagine participating in a daily walk with an LO. Holy cow, that sounds stressful. It seems like it would either intensify the misery or shatter the fantasy.
Your SO seems like a patient woman.
Best wishes!
hello Lovisa
Daily walk, very nice chats, it is very pleasant, and for me calming. And you are sort of correct… I don’t think I ever had LO on a pedestal, so nothing to shatter… she and I were friends before Limerence…. now of course, to me she “glimmers” … how does not EVERYONE see her like that?
BUT without them the suffering and nervous system anxiety kicks in… so yes, intensifies the misery
And… last night my wife is starting to show stress about it ALL… she seems to feel this is all in my head, and that I am making conscious choices… had a NOT so good talk with my wife last night… I feel caught now between 2 Hells… continue to upset my wife, or stop everything with LO ( cannot go full NC, as we work together!!!! oh how sweet NC would be… I have considered leaving my job )
I think, in a few days, when the time is right… I will have to STOP the walks and my friendship with LO
I will lose someone I care about, and whose company I enjoy very much 🙁
As an added BOUNUS ( please excuse all the caps… in my head I am indeed raising my voice ) I will get the f-ing JOY of likely see LO starting walking with someone else 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁
Limerence + actual friendship + real caring about her = HELL on Earth
@New_To_Limerence
I just saw your other reply to @Lovisa after I wrote —
There are several of us on here who have had your type of situation. And we are dealing with it…
I went full NC (ghosted my beloved LO) — I am about 6 weeks in.
@jmmo had a very similar situation to yours – and went pretty much NC at work – also had a conversation with his LO to tell her to respect his boundaries. He was very brave. It has been a saga, so I’ll just leave it there, and he can fill you in if he wishes…or you can go back and look at the posts…
Several others face work situations with LO. It is very hard…but…not impossible to get to a better place with it.
The one thing I will say, is that when you make the real choice to go LC (limited contact) or NC or CC (conscious contact)…you will be 100% back in your integrity immediately. You will have stopped the progression. Withdrawal and recover will be awful. And you will feel weak and out of control. But, you will have taken control, no matter how small, control is control.
After that, your ONLY job will be to remain in that state of LC or CC or NC.
If you choose to disclose, telling your LO how you feel and why you must do what you do, you get extra LE ninja points. 🙂
Then, you come on here all the time and get support, while you withdraw.
That’s what it looked like for me…but I didn’t get the disclosure ninja points, I ghosted, so, I get a bag of shame to put over my head. Haha
Still…I’m so much better than I was — sad spells, ghosting, or whatever else I’m contending with, I’m no longer in Pure Hell All The Time.
csc
@New_To_Limerence
This sounds like you may be in the very choppy, challenging water between the crystallization and deterioration phases, in your LE. You are in deep enough now that it will be very, very, VERY, hard to extract yourself.
You are in such pain — Are you considering trying to extract yourself…are you at that point, or more just living with the pain, and expecting to be able to live with it as a functional person?….that may prove difficult.
“Patient” is a very diplomatic word to describe how SO might feel, @Lovisa chose that word carefully, I would imagine… 🙂
Indeed, limerence is the most awful pain I have ever experienced, also. It is horrific. I too have SO. Ultimately, I felt I could not do that damage to myself, and I could not selfishly blame my addiction for the distress I brought SO. My SO did not ever know of my limerence. But, he felt it. We had problems (have problems) in our relationship…but, regardless of that, he did not deserve to be lied to…
Outside of that, my own soul was ripping to shreds. It was either do something about it (NC was my choice) or…continue in hell.
I hope, somehow, you are able to have a respite and gain clarity — if only for a moment. It really is hell, you are right about that.
Hello CSC
Thanks for your supportive words, they help
My wife seems to have run out of her patience for this… I had no choice but to disclose to her a few weeks ago… my suffering was VERY obvious ( even worse for her… she noticed that contact with LO made me High! She doesnt like that )
Ok… I am typing this at work and feel like crying
“soul ripping to shreds”…. yes, that is a good way to describe this
I am in Constant pain ( now regarding both LO and what I have done / am doing to my dear wife 🙁 )
LC will be an whole new version of this HELL… great
I anticipate this lasting for many more months…. I am really not sure about what damage my nervous system and mind will accumulate
Thanks all for letting me share / vent… it helps
as another aside… I cannot go on calling her LO
She is a real person, and a friend, someone I care about…with a name and feelings … in any further posting I will refer to her as Friend
It is a very important word to me.
In a way it’s better if you refer to her as LO. You need to try to get some distance. LO is an impersonal term, and it is a good choice for that reason.
I feel for you; I have tried several times to formulate responses but could not find the words. My situation is so much different, and I don’t feel I have anything to offer.
NtL,
One question is can there be a real friendship under your limerence that it is 1. possible- and 2. desirable to salvage?
Some posters on LwL would say no – talking about friendship is always ‘bargaining’ on the limerent’s part, as they try to resolve the cognitive dissonance that limerence is creating.
I am not as strong in that view. I had a friendship with my LO before limerence that ran to nearly a decade. I believe that’s worth salvaging and am now recently out of feeling limerent and still trying to figure out if and how I can salvage it.
There might be a reap friendship under yours too – I would not say it’s impossible. *But it will not be anything like your lim-brain tries to persuade you it is*. It will be different, reduced (sorry) and would take will and work on both parts to reach. And most probably a period of great reduction first (LC) to desensitise you.
What was your friendship with her like before limerence? What do you think is driving the limerence – if not attraction, then what else flipped the switch and keeps it flipped?
“I am looking forward to this one day being over.”
What do the beginnings of the journey to that day look like for you NtL? If you want something intact with her after this, what needs to happen or be said for you to start pulling back with her understanding enough about why to give you the space? The withdrawal pain eases a little each day, slowly – but you have to start with a Day 0 and stick to your guns.
I wish you strength and would really like to offer words and ideas to help, but you have to start by tackling some of these gnarly questions. They’re for you to think on more than because I’m trying to get answers out of you.
Norma… thanks for your reply… having a very nice time working with my Friend this morning ( I think I will stick with Friend… as all this very personal to me )
LaR… yes to both 1 and 2… we were friends before ( I think I got hit by the Glimmer the first time I hugged her ) and I want to keep it if I can
It is not “attraction ” although she is very attractive… I want to keep the friendship but lose the Limerence suffering
To that end… I think I am getting better… the Highs and Lows are both levelling out
I am now focusing on my Dear Wife… communicating better, LOVELY hugs, and planning some date nights!
@new to limerence
When I first came on here I was at the same point as you. I asked the others…what would be so wrong if I just stay in this? follow my God to the end…live in my love for this person…I’m fine. I can make it work. I’m getting used to this weird dynamic in my life. I’m ok with it.
Well two months later I was not fine. My soul was ground down to dust. I was not able to sustain the relationship, it was way too taxing. Too dysregulating. I was in misery. Crying a lot. Crying at weird times. Lying. Doing weird things to keep myself around LO. Losing ground at my job, neglecting friendships. Sleep disturbances. Losing too much weight….unable to focus on the simplest of tasks ..etc.
If you are able to sustain this state of connection with Friend without damage, my hat is off to you. But if not, this blog us an excellent place to get support during withdrawal and beyond …
I will say that Friend would likely cause you agony if she suddenly got another companion like you. That is why it’s not exactly Friendship…no, as you say, not romantic…but limerence is very territorial.
if you feel a certain way about Friend and you would not behave with those expectations to your other friends….it doesn’t matter if it’s romantic…it’s probably something you should treat with great seriousness from a mental health and overall health perspective….no matter where you net out with it.
Withdrawal is awful. Horrific. But ..it’s horrific for a reason. Because it’s actually addiction.
I sympathize with you….I have been where you are (50 yo woman with 30 yo Friend…and he was my friend, true)
@Coffeehouse.
Terminology suggestion: I am wondering how everyone feels about the term “profound infatuation” as a possible synonym for limerence?
I like the term “profound infatuation” because it sounds fairly clinical and free from bias. I.e. a profound infatuation could be a positive thing in a person’s life and it could just as easily be a negative thing in a person’s life.
“Profound infatuation” denotes that the thing being described is deep, strong, intense. It also acknowledges there may be milder and less all-consuming forms of infatuation such as regular crushes.
Lastly, “profound infatuation” is a term capable of describing something that can take place inside of a formal relationship with object of infatuation or outside of a formal relationship with object of infatuation.
Sammy,
You’re a mathematician of limerence terminologies, broader and more accurate than Tunnov and Lucy Bien! (I personally only consider her definition of the last three stages of LE as limerence!)
Now regardless each limerent’s LE circumstances, personality (attachment style), psychological/mental/emotional needs (“holes”), is there mathematical formula to remove/kill NEGATIVE “profound infatuation”(Assuming one wants to hold onto positive one)❓
@Snowphoenix.
Save the flattery for someone else. I don’t like hyperbole. And I couldn’t devise better terminology than Tennov even if I wanted to. She is the well-spring of meaning regarding love and limerence that we all must return to again and again. There’s a reason why the neologism “limerence” needed to be coined. Furthermore, if you’re going to reference Tennov and Lucy Bain, please have the common courtesy to spell the names of these two women correctly – they are experts in their respective fields.
When I’m thinking about the adoption of terminology such as “profound infatuation”, I’m thinking about suitable terms that either (a) a clinician might like to use (interchangeably with limerence) when working with a client in a non-judgemental way, or (b) a journalist who is trying to explain a concept that is difficult for many people to grasp. Journalists often want a couple of alternative phrases to use when writing their articles, etc.
“Profound infatuation” does not seem to capture the pain of withdrawal, so individual people in limerence may not like it. They may say the term romanticises something that shouldn’t be romanticised. Lucy Bain would agree. However, due to embarrassment, people may not seek out therapeutic help at all for a condition with excessive stigma attached.
In the interests of intellectual honesty and scientific rigour, I don’t think anyone can seriously claim the first two stages of limerence aren’t limerence and only the last three stages are. According to Lucy Bain’s in-depth understanding of the topic, the first two stages lead invariably to the last three. The lows are “hidden cruelty” always lurking behind the “sky-high euphoria”. Saying the first two stages of limerence aren’t limerence is like saying water isn’t wet. A baby elephant living in your backyard is still an elephant living in your backyard, no matter how you want to spin it.
As at least one writer (journalist) has already noted, limerence isn’t a “crush”, but it is also a “crush”. It is simultaneously “a crush” and “not a crush”. So, in that sense, “profound infatuation” is as apt a term as any. Limerence is indeed very strong feelings inspired by a specific person. Those strong feelings look and feel eerily similar to feelings commonly observed in people experiencing early-stage romantic love. Where does one draw the line between healthy and unhealthy, normal and deviant? This is a question primarily for the people who write/update the DSM.
The lows of limerence are truly nightmarish, and limbo can be frustrating for people who want to move on with their lives. It is only when one has fully recovered from limerence that one is safe enough psychologically to look back and say: “Okay. Maybe LO is/was a good person in some ways.” and “Okay. Maybe some parts of limerence are/were good.” Unfortunately, the brains of many limerents won’t be able to enjoy those good parts while hung up on LO. It’s like a chemical high is the one thing human brains can’t enjoy safely – invariably because we try to hold onto the high. Desire is the root of all suffering, etc, etc. And, as Lucy Bain would note, limerence is an addiction with withdrawals built into the whole process from the start.
Limerence is like … I don’t know … the dessert you can’t enjoy while you’re actually eating it, because you’re too stressed out and your tastebuds aren’t working. But, in hindsight, it’s still the best dessert you’ve ever had. (Really, “potential-mate pursuit mode” releases massive quantities of dopamine in the limerent ‘s brain. It’s chasing LO, even in fantasy, even in dreams, that’s interpreted as pleasurable. However, constant chasing soon proves exhausting, intrusive thoughts can have a cumulative effect, and the limerent’s body ends up stuck in permanent state of fight-or-flight).
Human beings have things called “legal fictions”. Essentially, to get out of limerence for good, I suspect the limerent has to employ the legal fiction that the LO was/is 100% bad and that the LE was/is 100% unenjoyable. Reality is always more complex, and contains many shades of grey. However, if limerence is “brain hijacked by fantasy”, one theoretical solution would be to trick the brain out of fantasy. The limerent must accept their limerence is a delusion, (regardless of whether it is or isn’t), and renounce that delusion. Renouncing “delusion” is the path back to some semblance of sanity.
Nobody can choose to retain the positive aspects of limerence while rejecting the negative aspects of limerence. Taking the good and offloading the bad is a pipe dream. The positive aspects of limerence and the negative aspects of limerence are a package deal. Either you accept the package in its entirety, or you reject the package in its entirety.
Personally, I think limerence is excellent for mate selection (simplifies the whole process) and lousy for actual relationships (it wears off with time). But people who have successfully pair-bonded with their LO, and never had a subsequent new LO/LE, would have no need ever to question the process. As Helen Fisher would very likely say: “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” 🙂
Sammy,
“Save the flattery for someone else. I don’t like hyperbole.”
I was not flattering you, but truly felt “profound infatuation” is a neutral term, not negative or judgmental like “crazy infatuation”, “loss of mind”, “stray of mind”, etc. With my limited reading on LE, I haven’t heard such a neutral term.
“Profound infatuation” does not seem to capture the pain of withdrawal, so individual people in limerence may not like it.
I may not have experienced LE pains as acute or lengthy as some of you here, ie. “Hysteria” as you described. My COO or my family would have flattened my face if I ever slipped into a “hysteric” state. We were trained from very young how to endure physical, emotional, and mental discomfort or pains. So I might be quite insensible or insensible compared to many Western limerencing souls here.
“They may say the term romanticises something that shouldn’t be romanticised. “
This is heavily looked down upon in COO; romanticizing anything in life is mocked upon over there.
“Lucy Bain would agree. However, due to embarrassment, people may not seek out therapeutic help at all for a condition with excessive stigma attached.”
Understood and agree, not in either culture.
“In the interests of intellectual honesty and scientific rigour, I don’t think anyone can seriously claim the first two stages of limerence aren’t limerence and only the last three stages are. “
I separate them based on DrL’s chart a few months ago. If crush is reciprocated or totally rejected (I had it before), then the limerent would not slip into LE. That summarized my previous 6-10 big and small LE experiences — I had either EA or PA reciprocated within two months, so never felt LE’s later stage lows that much. There was not much painful chasing involved.
When it needed to end due to compatibility or realistic reasons, it’s not so painful to cut off, compared to the LE pains I’ve seen here in LwL. All xLOs, except ET, were available to date, with or without social barriers.
“According to Lucy Bain’s in-depth understanding of the topic, the first two stages lead invariably to the last three. “
I can’t help but disagree, based on my last paragraph.
“The lows are “hidden cruelty” always lurking behind the “sky-high euphoria”. “
When I had gone into “normal’ dating after Glimmer, I probably did not experience this “sky-high euphoria” either. Then where would cruel lows come from? I got married with LO4 and found both my zest or anxiety came down in one month! There was a realistic living needed to consider and struggle with.
“Saying the first two stages of limerence aren’t limerence is like saying water isn’t wet. A baby elephant living in your backyard is still an elephant living in your backyard, no matter how you want to spin it.”
According to my memory, every crush after Glimmer was the same in intensity, but it truly did not slip to LE, now that I can say clearly after I experienced an AUTHENTIC limerence. You must have noticed that I used the word “authentic” several times before. One may argue that all my previous xLE were not authentic one, because they did not go into 3rd, 4th, or 5th stage — this I know for sure by comparing with the impossible LE7.
“Limerence is indeed very strong feelings inspired by a specific person. Those strong feelings look and feel eerily similar to feelings commonly observed in people experiencing early-stage romantic love. “
I don’t know how to argue with you about this, except remembering clearly what I had gone through from “LE1” to LE7. Maybe only LE7 can be defined/considered as an authentic limerence as Tennov and Lacy Bain define.
“Where does one draw the line between healthy and unhealthy, normal and deviant? This is a question primarily for the people who write/update the DSM.”
I wonder why you dwell on those theories so much…. 😊
“The lows of limerence are truly nightmarish, and limbo can be frustrating for people who want to move on with their lives.”
In LE7, I definitely experienced the lows (not as low as yours perhaps) and a limbo stage (but did not mind it so much), but I did not fight with them as most of lwlers do. It’s tolerable in my life and work setting. I grew up with worse adversities, and really not to boast here, we did learn how to live more in “peace” or survivable despair with unwanted and unexpected in a small setting like a household and in a large scale like the repressive culture. If one could not adopt, one could easily end up literally in “Room 101”…
“It is only when one has fully recovered from limerence that one is safe enough psychologically to look back and say: “Okay. Maybe LO is/was a good person in some ways.” and “Okay. Maybe some parts of limerence are/were good.” “
Well speaking only for myself, I knew for sure that Sensor ET was good in some ways, he was always logistically helpful to my work and spiritual upbeat when chatting with me. As I described before, I saw some unexplainable familiarity from Glimmer moment and in the last disclosure meeting. Only his Sensor nature that was so different from my illusion of him. I could be a Sensor candidate, but never cared about or hated unwanted attentions.
The other positive “side effect” of this LE pain is it pushed me onto my individuation journey and then ultimately healed my cptsd. The work was done primarily by myself, but without LE as a catalyst, I would probably have never got into the direction of self-discovery and self-growth.
Without LE’s increasing pains, I’d never have discovered LwL, although I encountered the word and one YT video that talked about “limerence” back in 2021 (utterly self-denied that I had such a “mad” condition!). I believed that I was still in full control of my LE after three years into it.
“Unfortunately, the brains of many limerents won’t be able to enjoy those good parts while hung up on LO. It’s like a chemical high is the one thing human brains can’t enjoy safely – invariably because we try to hold onto the high.”
Due to my cultural and personal background, I’m not sure how much I tried to “hold onto the high”. My sporadic imaginations could conjure up all sorts of baseless stuff (helped me survive better in COO), enjoy them whenever they arrived, then let them all go; habitually knowing that holding them was futile in our hush political and cultural environment — our style of fatalism.
To me, “Hung up on high” is a kind of like letting purple words or an envision flow out of nowhere and let them dance on their own in my head, watch them, write them down, and keep them as a record of mental/emotional/spiritual life or of a powerful therapeutic session (ie. that tear work) at inspired or mirage moments. Do you understand what I’m talking about? Maybe I don’t even clearly know myself… My point is: I normally did/do not grasp intangible “property” too tight, especially some creative or fantasy stuff. (two days or a week later, I stared at those purple lines, wondering where they came from…)
“Desire is the root of all suffering, etc, etc. “
Buddhism can’t agree more with you on this.
“And, as Lucy Bain would note, limerence is an addiction with withdrawals built into the whole process from the start.”
In the East, gambling is an only historical behavior addiction, not much else until recently (more chemical substance dependence is on slow rise). Based on COO’s attitude towards romanticism, I can guess (no data), limerence could barely survive. Arranged/matched marriage was a normal (like your medieval time) until 1949 and still an informal practice today.
But I know for sure, PA/LE? existed in every period of the history, and many women lost their life for it. People over there were much adoptable in body, mind, and spirit due to Buddhistic traditions and philosophical emphasis in lifestyles. Little creativities in any arena existed in its thousand years of civilization.
“Limerence is like … I don’t know … the dessert you can’t enjoy while you’re actually eating it, because you’re too stressed out and your tastebuds aren’t working. “
Yes, while stressed out, one can’t enjoy anything, dessert or gorgeous sunset; they become tasteless and depressive. I’ve experienced both!
“But, in hindsight, it’s still the best dessert you’ve ever had. (Really, “potential-mate pursuit mode” releases massive quantities of dopamine in the limerent ‘s brain. It’s chasing LO, even in fantasy, even in dreams, that’s interpreted as pleasurable. “
Totally agree with you on this!
“However, constant chasing soon proves exhausting, intrusive thoughts can have a cumulative effect, and the limerent’s body ends up stuck in permanent state of fight-or-flight).
If one is able to stay in limbo, not constantly, activily chasing, but accepting it as a ‘norm”, then limerent’s body may not be in constant “flight-or-flight”. It stays in slow-burn despair, a frog in lukewarm water — the spirit dies eventually?
“Human beings have things called “legal fictions”. Essentially, to get out of limerence for good, I suspect the limerent has to employ the legal fiction that the LO was/is 100% bad and that the LE was/is 100% unenjoyable.”
ET being 80% bad might work out for me sooner, but 50% bad is not enough. This LE helped me in other aspects, so I was not eager to get out the limbo; therefore, it lasted 7 years.
“Reality is always more complex, and contains many shades of grey. However, if limerence is “brain hijacked by fantasy”, one theoretical solution would be to trick the brain out of fantasy. “
Well, artists, poets, musicians work in fantasy/imagination areas, how do you prevent their creative brain to be hijacked? With his LE, Dante produced the immortal “Inferno”, Berlioz the eternal “The Symphonie Fantastique”, Goethe the lasting “Sorrow of Werther”. If tricking fantasy out of those artists’ brain, could those pieces ever came to existence? what would happen in this gray, 80% disappointing world? In our countable days and hours?
“The limerent must accept their limerence is a delusion, (regardless of whether it is or isn’t), and renounce that delusion. Renouncing “delusion” is the path back to some semblance of sanity.”
Well, if a huge crush is reciprocated in its honeymoon stage and then strengthened by mutual efforts to build a healthy relationship, there would be no further delusions, would it?
“Nobody can choose to retain the positive aspects of limerence while rejecting the negative aspects of limerence. Taking the good and offloading the bad is a pipe dream.
If an early stage of LE is reciprocated, then it turns to a normal relationship workshop, with its unexpected curves and straight lines, then where are the LE excruciating lows coming from?
“The positive aspects of limerence and the negative aspects of limerence are a package deal. Either you accept the package in its entirety, or you reject the package in its entirety.”
I still don’t and can’t accept this package as you put it, but how DrL illustrates it in his charts.
“Personally, I think limerence is excellent for mate selection (simplifies the whole process) and lousy for actual relationships (it wears off with time). “
I would say that Glimmer is still necessary for a possible, sustainable relationship to develop. I would replace “limerence” in your sentence to “profound, healthy infaturation/romance”.
“But people who have successfully pair-bonded with their LO, and never had a subsequent new LO/LE, would have no need ever to question the process. As Helen Fisher would very likely say: “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” 🙂”
Exactly! Based on Fisher’s MRI data, people could stay in profound romance for 25 years or longer, not just 2-3 years as a typical LE.
I think with a high degree of knowledge and awareness in Limerence and a steady individuation journey could help prevent us limerents (the prone camp) from ignorantly slipping into future LE.
The only issue about the term “profound infatuation” is that linguistically speaking, “infatuated” is a binary term. You either are or you aren’t (like awake or asleep). You can’t really be ‘infatuated’ by degrees. Like: “I’m a little bit infatuated” doesn’t make sense. You either are infatuated or you aren’t. So I don’t see how the word ‘profoundly’ works logically or adds anything much to just ‘infatuated’.
@LaR.
“The only issue about the term “profound infatuation” is that linguistically speaking, “infatuated” is a binary term. You either are or you aren’t (like awake or asleep). You can’t really be ‘infatuated’ by degrees.”
Fascinating. I did not know that linguistic rule. So I guess you accept the binary definition of limerence too? I.e. you’re either in or you’re out? I accept the binary definition myself, but it’s a very hard sell to others.
I think what you’re saying is true from a scientific point of view. However, I also think a lot of people don’t have that kind of self-awareness of their own biology unless someone sits them down and explains it to them. And then they’d be like: “Oh, yeah! That’s actually how my body works!” 😆
The “profound” is really thrown in there for all the non-limerents who want to insist they experience glorious, sprawling, operatic infatuations too, when in reality maybe they … don’t? At least not compared to limerents.
😁
If there’s a party going on, nobody wants to feel like they didn’t make the guestlist. Non-limerents want their strivings of romantic passion, however pleasant and however non-disruptive, to be taken seriously too. 😜
Sammy,
If I drop the linguistic pedantry then I can understand why you suggested ‘profound’.
‘Infatuation’ can be modified by a word like ‘chronic’ or ‘acute’ to denote length of time (rather than extent).
And yes, I would accept that limerence should also be an in/out binary, on a theoretical level at least. I don’t think research exists to pinpoint it yet in a sense like DSM of “you are limerent if you display X number of symptoms from this list for at least Y period of time”. But I don’t see why it couldn’t be developed. If it has already, I have missed it
@LaE.
I guess what I’m really saying is I suspect non-limerents are the people writing the DSM! 😆
An unwanted infatuation that lasts only six months is much less disruptive to a person’s overall life and mental health than an unwanted infatuation that lasts, say, ten years. The person experiencing the second case of infatuation probably has greater desire to seek out therapeutic intervention than the person experiencing the first case.
In other words, while infatuation is binary in terms of pure biology, the impacts of infatuation could be seen as existing on a spectrum of severity (or even a spectrum of pleasure). I.e. some infatuations appear to be more damaging than others. Some infatuations seem to be longer-lasting than others. Some infatuations may be experienced (subjectively, by the limerent herself) as a wholly pleasurable and/or enlivening experience. And by “some infatuations”, I mean “some cases of infatuation”. Could we say some people experience unusually profound CASES of infatuation?
Moreover, I think falling into infatuation always feels “deep”. People are often underprepared for the strength and intensity of their own feelings when entering into the altered state of limerence. “Profound” makes sense if the word is seen as an adjective to describe the nature of one’s feelings while in infatuation. We could also use another word such as “intractable” to describe infatuation. However, linguists would inform us that “intractable” is redundant too since infatuation is always intractable.
I guess most laypeople don’t have a clear grasp of what the word “infatuation” means. Most people see infatuation as a light-hearted and voluntary pursuit that passes quickly and doesn’t really require diagnosis or treatment. People going through limerence who are unhappy, and who can’t adequately explain their unhappiness, would beg to differ. 😉
@ LaR, @ Sammy
I don’t know about theories in most of matters, but I do dwell upon other Lwlers’ theories to see if they have some valid points based on my experiences. So I’m giving you two debaters my own account of infatuation in both worlds/cultures.
1. I don’t think all my “XLEs” (minus LE #7) can be defined as a “profound infatuation” because a) they were reciprocated quickly in one form or another. b) my upbringing subconsciously restricted me from going into deep infatuation with anything/anyone, unless it’s a book or a painting.
The Middle Way (the Golden mean) is very much a CORE principle throughout COO history until today. Still, needless to say that pair-bond drive still drive people beyond the Golden means… Only COO folks would be more sternly and harshly (with family and freinds’ help) to go NC for their own benefits (one of my cousins had “lost her mind” for a while, after her xboyfriend dumped her. She’s married contently now with a kid.)
2. Glimmer #7 hit suddenly when I was almost in the lowest point of my life — couldn’t get out of my OCD obsession for LO#5, although I never had that Glimmer or succeeded in putting him in “Romance File” subsequently (he’s a good father irl to his kids, but inadequate and habitually unfaithful as a romantic partner as he frankly told me).
3. The Glimmer and Honeymoon stages of LE7 did not feel like infatuation at all. I knew something clicked in my head, but also clearly knew its unavailability. Previously, I had no interest to entangle with any paired man (even if just to gf) and coldly cut off all males’ pushing-PA attempts, and backed up from my crushing paired men despite the huge emotional pain of despair that caused a physical illness.
4. After slipped into LE7 immediately after Dad’s death, I still did not feel “profound infatuation”, I desperately needed a father-figure replacement to soothe the sudden loss pain. As I told Marcia last year, I thought ET was “safe” (I always assessed others in positive light first —“ innocent until proven guilty) to go, like to a red-cloaked bishop (I told him so when asked why, he replied that he did not want that given power). By then (the end of 2018), my OCD mind began slipping into a soothing ‘infatuation” phrase.
5. Then this “infatuation” or my OCD got intensified in the following 3 years, but it appeared subjectively “pleasurable”, compared to the depressive stage before Glimmer. Also I expected little of irl reciprocation (unthinkable with my oath unbroken for decades). Of course, I wished some emotional/mental reciprocation (no EA concept in my COO) since he leaked some pair-bonding interested in his superficial behaviors (men can’t hide it), and he did not object my monologues and always patiently, sympathetically, empathetically listened in person to my new & old cptsd troubles. I thought this relatively content, positive stage (2018-2021)would go on forever.
6. Things turned to negative/ugly when I caught the sight of his LO/pet Limmy in the beginning of 2022, which induced my jealousy for the first time in my life. Only by then, I was forced to admit that I was “in love”/in romantic infatuation with him. Then his lies, my NCs, verbal attacks, attempts to end, and then “makeups” from both sides (in writing and in person) followed until the total NC in June of 2024. In hindsight, Sensor ET would not let go off my addictive infatuation despite he had his trophy family and secret ongoing rendezvous. “I like to be liked by people.”
7. Following LwL in July of 2023, it’s a DoH period, which is probably shown in my eyes. The imminent NC in 9 months just added more dark clouds over my head. However, we kept amicable, superficial chitchats and bits of holiday celebrations here and there as close colleagues (he had several female ones at work, which did not bother me at all). That’s when I had to practice hardest the Stoical tricks in my mind, internally admitted my obsessed infatuation with him, despite his flaws I could see and prove clearly. I thought I improved my ability of tolerating another fleshy human being!
Back to you two debaters, infatuation with objects or people, regardless its linguistic connotation, has its degrees in intensity and scope. However, if one has OCD or other types of neurodivergence, then it’s hard to assess a scope or a degree of an infatuation; they can be tangled with each other or infatuation strengthened by OCD, perhaps?
I also agree that infatuation could be positive and negative, depending on to what ends one is able to utilize this infatuation, be it infused with Eros only, or other forms of love, for oneself or for others. That’s another topic (perhaps related to the discussion between Marcia and Sammy about “in love” and “in limerence”?)
The reason I can declare that my LE7 is finally over, is not only that mysterious melancholy longing is gone (always bothered my chest upon the first moments of waking up in the dawn), but my increased affectionate care for and focused interests in everyone around me: my pupils, colleagues, irl & LwL friends and even Mom. I’m stably and steadily joyful or content most of the time nowadays (even with some unexpected come and go… ) , can’t you guys tell? 😊
8 years ago around today (not sure the exact day), Glimmer #7 took place…
So I can declare that my LE 7 has ended in 8 (a lucky number) years.
😊
@Snowphoenix.
“Back to you two debaters, infatuation with objects or people, regardless its linguistic connotation, has its degrees in intensity and scope. However, if one has OCD or other types of neurodivergence, then it’s hard to assess a scope or a degree of an infatuation; they can be tangled with each other or infatuation strengthened by OCD, perhaps?”
Please stop mischaracterising other people’s interactions.
LaR and I did not debate anything. As far as I know, neither of us are debaters. Nor do either of us wish to be debaters. You misunderstood our interaction as aggressive due to the aggressive streak in your own unusually aggressive personality. (Why do you claim to be out of limerence when you still have extremely elevated levels of cortisol in your bloodstream?) LaR and I had a brief and friendly Pommy-style chat about a topic we both found interesting…
I thought LaR made a good point. I was just fleshing out what he said, and explaining in a little more depth about how people presenting with symptoms of limerence to a clinician might feel.
If it’s grammatically incorrect to apply the word “profound” to infatuation, since infatuation is an either-or/on-off state, it’s probably also grammatically dubious to apply other modifiers such as “healthy” or “unhealthy”. Infatuation is a stand-alone term, and that makes it unsuitable to include in the DSM as a condition.
I think LaR and I would both agree it would be ridiculous to diagnose people who come to therapy with “infatuation” even though “infatuation” is precisely the state they find themselves in. 🙂
Sammy,
Thank you for responding my post.
It’s very interesting to see that you often had such an extraordinary ability to twist and misunderstand my posts and then sadly to be irked/annoyed by your misinterpretations of them….
How about a deal: after this post, don’t open any link under my emoji handles (I won’t respond anything you say or discuss with others), so you won’t be irritated by my ESL words, which may help you reach more desired peace and LE freedom?
“Please stop mischaracterising other people’s interactions.”
I should quote the word “debater”, which was just a bit of friendly jest, since I knew you hated the word “debate”. Obviously, I knew you two are cool-headed in discussing the new definition of “profound infatuation” which I responded first before LaR. I felt appropriate to carry on the topic with both of you.
“You misunderstood our interaction as aggressive due to the aggressive streak in your own unusually aggressive personality.”
I see you’re turning everything around to attack my personality again — you truly enjoyed attacking me whenever you could, why did I deserve so much of your energy and attention? If it makes you feel happier or more superior, then feel free to label me whatever you wish and fire away… 🤷🏻♀️
“(Why do you claim to be out of limerence when you still have extremely elevated levels of cortisol in your bloodstream?) “
I see that you know me better now than myself knowing about “my bloodstream” — are you a micro-telescope? Based on DrL’s insight, may I ask, “Sammy, are you living in my head? “ 😊 (At least I didn’t lose two nights of sleep in one week…)
“LaR and I had a brief and friendly Pommy-style chat about a topic we both found interesting…”
You did not see that I was happily validating and enjoying your “friendly Pommy-style chat” 👏 (compared to what I 👀 a couple of days ago…).
Again, I responded to the topic as soon as you raised it, since I found your definition interesting and “innovative”, while you thought I was flattering you. 😳 Now, within 24 hours, I became aggressive again in your insightful 👁️ …
“I thought LaR made a good point. I was just fleshing out what he said, and explaining in a little more depth about how people presenting with symptoms of limerence to a clinician might feel.”
Trust me, I’ve learned a great deal from your discussions in depth. He’s a caring, rational, empathetic “TO” to almost every 👻 in Lwl, now you’re included… 😃
“If it’s grammatically incorrect to apply the word “profound” to infatuation, since infatuation is an either-or/on-off state, it’s probably also grammatically dubious to apply other modifiers such as “healthy” or “unhealthy”. Infatuation is a stand-alone term, and that makes it unsuitable to include in the DSM as a condition.”
You two discussed the term from grammatical or mental health angle, in a broader field, DSM. I just had more empirical concerns, because I don’t fully understand this word’s application in all my xLEs (that’s why I listed them to see its relations to the term), which also ties to your previous definition about 5-stages Limerence.
I only consider DrL’s chart is more suitable to my own xLEs. I don’t think either way of defining it is more correct or less accurate, I tend to see the word “limerence” involves uncontrollable stages, thus negative. The first two stages are positive and could be avoided to slip into later stages if a “profound infatuation” is reciprocated early enough and the two brave parties can carry them to a normal relationship workshop, like what Trifles is doing.
“I think LaR and I would both agree it would be ridiculous to diagnose people who come to therapy with “infatuation” even though “infatuation” is precisely the state they find themselves in. 🙂 “
I can’t help agree more with you both in your insights. But in my life, only LE7 in its last 3 years could be defined with the word, “profound infatuation”.
Sincerely wish you a restful weekend and better sleeps! 🍅
@Snowphoenix.
I don’t believe I have misunderstood a single post you have made during your time at LwL.
Let’s cut to the chase:
(1) You identify yourself as someone who has experienced “infatuation”? This is not a trick question. A simple yes or no will suffice. The answer you have consistently provided is “yes”.
(2) Your most recent infatuation wasn’t for some “phantom LO” or some “narc LO” or some “sensor ET LO”. You’re most recent infatuation was for a man you actually know – a real person. You worked with this man. He was your colleague and/or supervisor at work.
(3) Your LO was a real person who was married – a man with a wife, in other words. He was unavailable for immediate pair-bonding. You knew he was unavailable for immediate pair-bonding.
(4) You were infatuated with said married man for a minimum of seven years. Eight years, if we count your latest admissions.
(5) You admitted on the public record you wanted to pursue a physical affair with this man. The thought alone of committing adultery made you giddy. That’s why I stopped talking to you. The giddiness-inducing stuff (sexual fantasy) belongs in your diary, as per the twice-very-clearly-stated posting guidelines of LwL.
(6) You also admitted on the public record you wanted to pursue an emotional affair with this man. (Sex with this man would not be enough for you. He had to reciprocate your limerent feelings).
(7) You admitted on the public record you wanted to be in a polycule with this married man. Whether you wished to include his wife in said polycule is unclear. You have admitted on the public record you’re not a lesbian. Therefore, I assume you don’t wish to include your LO’s wife in any polycule with your LO, unless she just sits on the sidelines and watches. (Most wives aren’t a fan of watching).
(8) [Direct personal attacks removed by Dr L. Reminder of posting rules: personal attacks are not acceptable, robust discussion of the content of posts is]
(10) I reject your claim you’ve only experienced Glimmer and Honeymoon Phase for your most recent LO. The chemicals circulating in your own physical body (which come out accidentally in your speech) betray your pretestations to the contrary.
If you had a purely positive experience of limerence, you wouldn’t need to be here. At the very least, you have entered Phase Three of Limerence (Crystallised Limerence/Addiction with highs and lows). You may even be in Stage Four, Dependency, of Limerence, due to your inappropriately argumentative (i.e. highly irrational) nature and your inability to admit you’re in the wrong about many things.
(11) Stoicism is a nice philosophy, but stoicism is no defence against limerence. Limerence isn’t a case of “mind over matter”. One can’t will oneself out of limerence. One can’t meditate oneself out of limerence. Limerence is a case of one’s biology being changed involuntarily by chemicals for the duration of the limerent episode. As Dr. L may never tire of saying, limerence is an altered state.
(12) Feelings are not facts. Only facts are facts. People in limerence tend to believe that their feelings are facts – this is what makes some people in limerence so unpleasant to be around (especially to their frustrated family members and their bored-to-death friends and their betrayed spouses). Limerent person suffering from very bad limerence = irrational person screaming they’re not irrational.
Only someone who is still in the thick of addiction will insist their arbitrary feelings are facts, and that limerence is some murky non-binary condition rather than an on/off state. When you’re in limerence, you will just know – the euphoria is a real giveaway. When you’re out of limerence, you will also just know – the levels of chemicals in your body will actually change to reflect the fact you’re not longer in limerence. If you are experiencing flashes of extreme anger, and remain in fight-and-flight mode, you are still in limerence.
If you’re unsure whether you are in or out of limerence, you either (a) have never experienced infatuation in the first place, or (b) are still in the thick of person addiction and your brain is clouded by the stupefying effects of said addiction.
(13) If you disagree with anything I say, and you are speaking in good faith, then congratulations! You are a non-limerent person who has misdiagnosed herself as suffering from a condition she doesn’t have.
If you have no problems that can’t be solved by stoicism, or if your fixations on married and/or otherwise unavailable men only bring you elation, I don’t understand why you’re at LwL. Furthermore, I have no logical reason to talk to you – we have nothing in common and nothing relevant and/or entertaining to say to one another.
Have a nice day. 🙂
@Sammy and Snowphoenix.
It’s obvious you are not getting on at this point, but the coffeehouse isn’t the right location for thrashing out your differences. Can I request that you don’t engage with each other’s posts for a while to let things cool down? Thanks.
( from CSC )….
When I first came on here I was at the same point as you. I asked the others…what would be so wrong if I just stay in this? follow my God to the end…live in my love for this person…I’m fine. I can make it work. I’m getting used to this weird dynamic in my life. I’m ok with it.
( Yeah… that sounds like what I say to myself )
Well two months later I was not fine. My soul was ground down to dust. I was not able to sustain the relationship, it was way too taxing. Too dysregulating. I was in misery. Crying a lot. Crying at weird times. Lying. Doing weird things to keep myself around LO. Losing ground at my job, neglecting friendships. Sleep disturbances. Losing too much weight….unable to focus on the simplest of tasks ..etc.
( also YES… a good description of my state of being… crying, doing anything to be with Friend ( such as manipulating my days off to match hers, etc ) lousy sleep where I would wake up with Friend fully in my head, unable to focus on anything )
If you are able to sustain this state of connection with Friend without damage, my hat is off to you. But if not, this blog us an excellent place to get support during withdrawal and beyond …
I will say that Friend would likely cause you agony if she suddenly got another companion like you. That is why it’s not exactly Friendship…no, as you say, not romantic…but limerence is very territorial.
( I think if she “replaced me” right not I would melt down. And I am VERY VERY territorial / possessive with Friend )
if you feel a certain way about Friend and you would not behave with those expectations to your other friends….it doesn’t matter if it’s romantic…it’s probably something you should treat with great seriousness from a mental health and overall health perspective….no matter where you net out with it.
( I would not and have never behave like this with a “normal” friend, it would be weird )
Withdrawal is awful. Horrific. But ..it’s horrific for a reason. Because it’s actually addiction.
I sympathize with you….I have been where you are (50 yo woman with 30 yo Friend…and he was my friend, true)
( sorry, I don’t know how this turned out with you, do you mind telling me how was your LE? )
@New_To_Limerence
I had a lovely connection with my LO. We had a lot of fun knowing one another. Shared many interests. Had same opinions about things, similar life experiences (except I had 20 more years of them than he did!) We did not work together. We went to the same gym. We both loved physical activity – it was more than the usual ‘people knowing each other at the gym’…we had a connection around that topic.
I knew him for a year. I saw him about 4-5 days a week. He began to seek me out, to invite me to do things, but then would not really commit, and it was unclear (to me) if the things were like…proto-dates or…just…for fun? Still unclear.
The uncertainty – would I see him? Hear from him? He texted me often. Why, I don’t know. Maybe just as a friend. All very unclear. I never flirted. I never disclosed my feelings.
BUT: I obscured the truth. He didn’t know I had SO. I hid it. Didn’t lie outright but was not forthcoming. I was doing it to bring him closer…that was all my doing, not his.
I was in the deep end. My life began to revolve around him. Every thought I had felt like it needed to pass through the part of my brain where he lived, before it became a real thought. I thought of him constantly. Constantly. He was “with” me even when he wasn’t actually with me. It was intense and is hard to admit…because it sounds like I was obsessed. And I believe I was obsessed. Unhealthy. But I held it together. Nobody knew just how unhinged I was about him.
It ended when LO and I had plans. He cancelled at the very last minute with a lame excuse. He made a strange attempt to reschedule the next day, but it would have involved me running myself ragged. I was fried. I was exhausted. I was crushed. I felt like a second-tier option…an older woman that he knew, could hang out with if he was bored, or needed an ego boost…Bottom line: I did not feel the way I wanted to feel.
It was then and there I realized, I must break this off.
LO had texted me pretty often. I could not run the risk of hearing from him again. Originally, a month before, I had tried just being physically out of contact (still texting) only to find he started texting me fairly often, and being more receptive to getting together. The whole thing was so ambiguous – It was too painful, too dysregulating. I felt I had no choice but to totally ghosted him and block him. I had to totally cut it off, or he would be in touch wondering what was going on, or…inviting me to do things…and it would be torture.
I have not spoken to him since. I have not reached out. 6 weeks.
Withdrawal was horrible. Crying, sobbing! Depression, scary thoughts, disorientation…panic. Excuses…guilt…all of it. Still, there is part of me that believes he cared. But, a larger part of me thinks he didn’t care…enough. And I —- my god, I was NOT being truthful. And that part is the whole thing. I was lying to myself, living in a fantasy, hooked on a person, avoiding some seriously deep personal sh*t in my own life.
I am coming slowly to a better place though and can now see it was not sustainable.
It is still a huge tragedy. I am still grieving, mourning, something that could never be. It is very, very, sad.
But, I am not curled up on my couch crying every day. I’m not shaking and sobbing all the time. I’m not lying. I feel I have done the right thing for myself. That level of dysregulation was not sustainable. There was no way I could have gone on, and had a decent life. My life is still a mess but I am healthier. And I will grow and learn from this. I will heal and become a better version of csc. But yeah it’s super painful.
Probably not as painful as unrequited love, though.
There you have it
To CSC:
I am not sure I can put into words what I want to say. Your comments touched me deeply, and I wish I could be as brave as you are.
My LO has never been that great about texting or inviting me to get together. I mean, he has done so, but to a much lesser extent than I would have liked.
I am having a terrible time functioning, and I want you to know that you are a tremendous inspiration to me.
@Norma
Thank you, darling. It means so much to hear my story resonates with you…though I wish it did not. I would not wish this on anyone…and I think all of us here feel that way. This type of obsession (there, I said it) is….it’s so hard. It’s so upsetting.
I am not in your situation but I do believe I understand, somewhat, from within my own situation…
I will also say that as a woman who has longed for a kind of love, longed to be intellectually “seen” and valued…parts of your story speak to me.
My life is also lonely at times. I have lost a lot of friends, who were like my family, for various reasons. It is really hard …it makes all the sense in the world (to me) that you’d have a hard time functioning….
You’re not alone. And we all help each other here. I think for many of us, our LE’s are easily some of the hardest things we’ve ever been through….(And many of us have been through some other seriously hard things!!)….it just says so much about how disorienting limerence can be…how confusing and painful…and how serious it is.
thank you for your kind reply…it means a great deal to me, Norma. ❤️
csc
wow… that sounds awful, and to tell the truth… frightening withdrawal, but sounds like you are doing the best for yourself.
I feel lucky really with my Friend… we had a great walk this afternoon, about 75 minutes together… it is so nice to spend time with her. Very much levels me out!
We are good friends, and never run out of interesting things to talk about ( her weekend trip with her husband, her language and culture, food, work… just nice, comfortable friends )
Now I just need to get over the Limerence suffering, but keep having her as a Friend
another aside… I am in no way “jealous” of her husband… I know she loves him and I am happy for them
but… I am VERY jealous and territorial with my Friend, in regards to her even getting CLOSE to becoming friendly with other male co-workers. I think I just want, for lack of a better term, a “special” relationship with her ( which I do know that we have )… I think its just insecurity on my part.
I believe I fill a void in her… part father figure, and also a male friend who she knows she is safe with, and she really is kind of lonely, not many other friends in her life
NtL,
I mean what I’m about to say with care, not as an attack or a judgement. I said it yesterday but I think I need to say it again in plainer words.
“I just need to get over the Limerence suffering, but keep having her as a Friend”
You won’t be able to do that. Not with her as a friend in the current form. As long as you have that, you will have the limerence. It’s honestly that simple. The friendship feeds the limerence and is wrapped up in it. You will need to drastically recalibrate your expectations of what the friendship is, or can be.
I say all that as somebody who myself said the same as what I just quoted from you. And then found out the hard way that I couldn’t make it work.
I am not saying you and her couldn’t eventually be friends in some form. But not this form, and not without a massive adjustment period first.
New_To_Limerence
I’m afraid I agree with LaR. It does sound like a wonderful friendship, however it is also destructive.
Have you read the booklet “Is your partner limerent for someone else? – Anxiety to Action” available from this site? I found it a helpful wake-up call to remind myself how awful this situation is for spouses, and how they deserve us to take whatever painful steps necessary to get rid of limerence.
LaR and Monochrome…
I thank you for your replies ( I am sure truthful and accurate )
Just not what I wanted to hear 🙁 I WANT to keep Friend as she is!!! Just not Limerent!
I guess what I would lose… highs and LOWS, being jealous and possessive, etc. Does the “Glimmer” also go away? ( she is SO shiny! )
I am not really qualified to answer this, as I am foundering in my own limerence, but I don’t think the glimmer goes away on its own.
You have the added complication of your wife being in distress. I think you may discover that you’re going to have to limit the contact with your friend.
The time you spend with her is not the problem, it’s your longing and your pre-occupation with her.
Very well said, Norma!
I feel a lot of sympathy for you, New_To_Limerence. You are in a difficult position and our community is trying to help you see a way to healthfully redirect. I’ll try to help out, too.
It seems like you are saying, “I want my drug but none of the side effects.” It’s impossible. Let me say it another way. Last night I attended a social event where donuts were served. I rarely eat sugar, but I wanted a donut so I ate it anyway. My blood sugar is still higher than it should be several hours later. I just can’t have regulated blood sugar and donuts. Does that make sense? You can’t have regulated emotions and LO contact. You can’t have a secure wife and contact with your LO. Trust me, your LO is triggering insecurity in your very patient wife.
I’m sorry, New_To_Limerence. I know this isn’t what you want to hear.
Hypothetically speaking, is it possible for you to limit contact with your LO? What boundaries would you set for yourself if you went LC?
Miss Lovisa
Always the caretaker. I am glad to see you still post. You and Limmy were so there for me when I found this place. I can’t express how much you have helped me. I have a great deal of affection for what you have done for me. I cherish it. But again I need to remind Mr Lovisa thats there is now Miss Lovisa in the microwave no matter how hungry he is. 🙂
lol!
Thanks Adam!
Monochrome… I have not yet read it, but I know that this is hard on my wife… she sort of understands, but I think she is viewing this as an Emotional Affair… and I am causing her distress and pain 🙁
When I told my wife about my limerence (LO was out of the picture by the time I found this place but limerence was still lingering) that’s very much how she still took it. A year prior to LO exiting my life my wife already questioned me about having an affair with LO, so disclosing was something I wanted to do. But I do not think that it registered to her as anything more than an emotional affair. Which is something that is as hard to disprove as talking in your sleep.
But I think that she has a bit more of an understanding of limerence even to the point that, at one time, she would post here too. It’s been a while since she last posted. But she may still lurk. Being a married limerent isn’t something I wanted. But it still causes hurt to our spouses no matter how scientifically it can be explained.
I am hoping the best for you and your wife. My wife, as you can tell, has decided we can get through it. Appreciate what little “understanding” she gives you. It’s more than I deserved. But I am thankful for it. It’s been 3 years since LO left. And my wife is still here with me, despite some setbacks on my part. But I think as of late that limerence is finally starting to scare me, and at the same time strengthen my bond with my wife.
Norma and Adam…
Please know that I need and appreciate these replies and insights into Limerence
Norma… my Dear Wife is not quite onboard with my need to spend time with my Friend… but she did say 2 days ago when I did NOT get a walk with Friend, that I came home distracted and suffering ( she calls it an “altered state”, which seems accurate ). So, at this point, as of today, she seems ok with my “Friend time”, but NOT with being in an Altered State, with either lows OR highs. But overall, I KNOW I am causing my Dear Wife some pain… I have told her that if she needs me to, I will go LC with my Friend, no more walks… but Dear Wife has said that given that I would be likely in a long term “altered State” she does not want me to do that.
That said… she is worried that should I get out of this LE, I will just do it again with another LO ( I had a similar LE about 25 years ago, but I didnt recognize it then… my wife says I acted that same… that one ended with full NC as LO moved away )
Adam… I also found I had to Disclose to my Dear Wife as I was Leaking symptoms all over the place… she knew there was another woman involved, and was thinking EA or full PA.
And yes, she is thinking this is some weird EA, and YES I do fully appreciate the amount of understanding she is giving me. I do not like causing my Dear Wife any pain
@new to limerence
Ohhh…hm.
So as I understand it, your marriage (your peace of mind, and your wife’s peace of mind, and your ability to relate to each other) …is to become completely dependent on the whims of an unwitting 35 year old married woman whom you work with.
That seems a big weight for any one of you three to carry. (Friend included)…
CSC….
Well, that is an almost accurate way to put it. Sounds horrible when you put it like that.
I am not sure I would say “whims”… but I know what you mean. If my Friend stopped spending time with me/walks etc… yes I would suffer, but I think at this stage of the LE ( am I being a bit delusional… perhaps )… but I feel my highs and lows are levelling out ( because of daily walks / time together and pleasant time working together? ) and that I would get over it fairly well if it was Friends decision… wow, even as I type this I can feel I am lying to myself.
Friend is aware of the effect she has on me, I believe. I don’t think she manipulates it, but she DOES I think benefit from and enjoy our time together and our friendship.
I think I need to THINK about this more…
@new to limerence
Yes, and you are not the only one going through this, many have gone through and it’s serious. It’s really hard. Many of us have had prior episodes, like you have, also.
It’s interesting how you stopped mid-sentence there and said you could feel yourself lying….Wow.
That is a major ability you’ve just found. The body can tell you before the mind puts words or even thoughts to something.
I do think writing (or typing, here) can really help sort through thoughts or feelings in that way you just showed. Somehow the process of commiting thought to paper (or comment, to blog!) can force a kind of new perspective… it certainly seems to for you! That was beautiful, honest writing, btw! 😊
csc
CSC
I think putting our words here in LwL is so helpful because they are there permanently. Dr. L deleting them or him shutting the whole site down is only way they disappear.
I often go back and read my old posts when I first started coming here as a way to remind myself (when I have a setback) of the progress I have made in my two years here. I was glad that I was so brutally honest with myself when I posted about my condition back then.
However my wife finding my old comments many months after I started posting was incredibly painful for her I am sure. She text me one time a question that I knew she was reading my posts. I think Limernent Emeritus said my wife and I were the only limerent and SO posting on here and he’s been here for many years.
So, to be cliche, posting here can be a double-edged sword. But for me I think it did more good than bad. Bottling it up and not talking about it, for me anyway, would have just feed the limerence. So I am very thankful to Dr L and this community for the free therapy lol
@Adam
Yes, I was reading your post up above about you and your wife and was so surprised you both contributed here…
I can only imagine what the two of you have been through together. It truly does sound extraordinary…your bond…
You’re so right about the older posts. That’s terrifying to me because I really let fly in here on my early days of LE3 (aka the mother of all LE’s) but I do have a written journal from that time I may look back on eventually…that’s a great idea and incentive.
I can’t imagine how your SO knew it was you writing here and found you…but I’m sure that was very painful.
I still feel that if someone is on here, even if they are in the throes of their LE, they are trying to do better…but yes it would be excruciating for an SO, to read what is said here….I’m sure….
I’m amazed at how helpful people like you are here, for those of us trying to free ourselves…or at least come up for air…in our LE’S…
You are right, to bottle it up…I don’t know if that’s survivable. And actually I’ve had minor panic attacks that something would happen to Dr L and the blog would go down,and we’d all be scattered to the wind! If that happens can we all make a contingency plan to go to his YouTube comment section as a meeting spot to reconnoiter??? 🤣😂
seriously
“I can’t imagine how your SO knew it was you writing here and found you…but I’m sure that was very painful.”
CSC
I printed out some of the resources from Dr L about being married to a limerent. I did not think that she could follow the url at the top of the pages I printed out and find me.
And since 1998 I have always had some variation of Adam in my username online because of Marvel’s character Adam Warlock (for MCU folks he was in Got3) so she knew immediatly who I was.
Then sometime after we discussed it more she asked if I would mind if she posted on here. I said, yes, some married limerents need to hear what it’s like on the flip side of the coin. I told her not to go easy on them. Talk about how what I did made you feel in our marriage. Don’t sugarcoat it. And boy did she not lol Enough that she even got Dr L’s attention lol I got in trouble with Dr. L. If there is any humor to be had in my LE it was that.
Yeah it’s good we’d have a backup plan on his youtube channel. 🙂
Yes, I am impressed with how your wife is handling it, not trying to control you or anything. Leaving it up to you to resolve. Meanwhile you’re starting to see for yourself what’s going on. Friendship is a wonderful thing; it’s a good thing for a young person to get along well with an older person; but it shouldn’t be causing pain like this.
@CSC There IS a private forum connected to LWL. Other people run it. 🙂
Dear csc
Although I know as much, my heart aches when I find that you’re “not great”. You clearly and unsurprisingly still have a lot of pain. That’s normal, and as others have said, I think that you & I will be in that situation for a while to come.
Thank you for the offer of continued support as I move away from LO and focus on my own wellbeing. It’s a hard one, because I’m still inclined to worry about her. However I will say that that is receding very quickly. I can actually see the point where I won’t care anymore. As you say – they/she (LOs) will be just fine.
“I definitely went into a “My LO was a thoughtless flake” space for a while. I was angry and upset. But, now, I’m more in the “Whoa. I have a LOT of sh*t to work through that is unrelated to LO” camp. And yet, several times a day, I’m awash in cravings, longing, painful wistfulness, or any other element from the LE grief smorgasbord. (Oh, yum.)” Absolutely, that’s why I am in therapy. Yes, there’s a lot of talk about her and how she has wittingly/unwittingly virtually brought me to my knees, but my actual longer-term focus is: what the hell is going on within me that makes me need this at various points in my life??”. So like you, I am very aware that the problem lies – in its biggest and truest sense – way beyond anything LO has said/done (or not).
“Trying to keep from getting into another minor LE to distract me. I’m going to keep free of men for a while…while I figure out wtf is actually happening to cause this pattern of limerence in my almost-50’s.”
Again, that could be me. I know exactly what you mean. I found myself being smiled at and talked to very warmly last week. She was beautiful – even in ways that LO is not. I have found myself constantly fantasising about this other lady since. I’m partly reminding myself that this is bad – “are you serious? Wtf are you even thinking this for??” and partly longing for that glimmer. I shall probably never see her again, which saddens and heartens me at the same time! Also, I have found thoughts of a girl in my last job, who I was very attracted to in a purely physical sense (no limerence) have cropped up a lot lately. I am sure that these are designed as a diversion from LO. At least I know and have recognised that.
I notice that you talk a lot about reaching 50. I’m interested to know why that is apparently so significant. I’m guessing it’s due to the milestone? I’m 54, and I promise you dear friend, it is just a number. The rules about “having your shit together, what is still wrong with you” are nonsense. If anything, it is a time of further and deeper reflection. What I’m saying is, please don’t let your age be another thing that you best yourself over the head with.
You are, as am I, healing. We can only do it at a pace at which our minds and bodies can be comfortable with. It hurts – hurts like hell. You are making such progress, and as I am not far behind you I take courage and strength from you.
I hope the you know that I root for you daily. You and my other LwL family have taught and given me so much. I will repay you csc.
Have a peaceful, productive and pleasant day.
Hugs and a huge amount of care.
Jmmo 🤗
@jmmo
I honestly do not know how I would have gone NC without you. I feel like we have gone through a war together. Thank goodness for the support of the other LwL folks…and that we had support from each other!
It’s funny one can feel that way on an anonymous blog. But there it is. Perhaps that is why this weird blog comments section works so well, limerents are open-minded, creative and willing to suspend doubt…and instead, see possibilities…☺️
Yes I’m ok. Fear not. I’m just…not happy.
Yes, I too am in therapy….sigh. I’m coming to understand just how much I didn’t know…and there is indeed work to be done…
Regarding turning 50… perhaps it’s an American woman thing…but…America is not kind to women over 40. Its like we get put on a one way train to invisible-land.
It’s also at or around 50 when the wheels start to wobble in terms of appearance for many women. So, yes I’d say it’s my sense of midlife (and my awful vanity) that are at issue and freaking me out. I feel…an oddly visceral sadness that I will probably never be with a young man again. That bird has flown. And somehow, I was too busy to see it when it did… But…lots of last things happen to lots of people….every day…and they don’t know it.
Yes, this must happen to every human… though it’s the first time it’s happening to me.
It’s all very weird, and I think I need to examine and reframe my priorities. Which is what I will be doing…
As for rebound LO’s….Nooooooo! Not you too, jmmo! My God. We are both incorrigible 😂 if Limerent-ville had a skid row, you could live in the tent next to mine. 🤣 Hope you like eating cold beans out of a can, jmmo…
No, I am not going to cheer you on with those rebound prospects. Though it’s tempting. Haha I would not blame you though I really would not.
If I go anywhere near any man (SO presently excluded) or lie about my relationship status to I am going to be disappointed with myself (putting it lightly)….and I’ll have to start spinning an elaborate tapestry of lies to my therapist…Though it’s tempting…NGL many a hotel bar has called my name. And I don’t drink. Horrible
Yes, we are healing. Healing is scary stuff. But I do think we are doing a good job, even if it’s messy, jmmo. It’s better than where we were. It really is.
I hope your week’s leave is turning out the be quite restorative — seems like a bit, yes!!
with care,
csc
Oops up there ☝️
csc
Quite simply, ❤️. Yes, we have been through a war. Your words mean so much to me. Having you there has been my saviour in many an occasion.
The 50 thing is an enigma. I am sure that many women in the UK would say similar. My LO is 40, so again like you, a significant age difference. It pains me too to think that I will never have a time with a younger lady, however maybe that’s part of the whole grieving process?
I will happily camp in a tent next to you and eat cold beans and share limerence tales, I’m sure that despite our current unhappiness we could find some silly things that we’d both laugh at! 😂
My week off has been somewhat restorative, thank you. I don’t fear going to work on Monday – if I encounter her it will be as though I don’t know her. That’s the plan, anyway….
Here’s to our joint project!
My best to you
Jmmo x
@JMMO
Years ago, I saw the Australian version of The Slap (TV series). (I barely watched one episode of the American version.) The protagonist’s dad was about 70ish, went to a funeral at his old Greek church, looked around, and became obsessed with, “How did we get so old?” And “I’ll never sleep with a young woman again!” Just kept moping around, even paid for a young prostitute, though I don’t recall if that actually satisfied him or not. Bickered with his wife, then discovered she’d slept with a friend of his years earlier. Eventually he wound up staying with her and trying to get some peace, if I recall correctly. I remember that whenever I look around Facebook and start thinking, “How did we get so old?”
csc and LaR
Oh my actual God, you two are brilliant! That is the first time I’ve laughed at this site to the point where SO chuckles and says “what are you laughing at?!”
csc – there are too many brilliant parts of your post for me to pick out individually, but yeah – it’s all utterly brilliant! Mini Woodstock! 🤣🤣We could have a “Team Rah” stall where we sign people up to NC in our inimitable motivational style!
@LaR – I really wouldn’t have expected any mention of my LO to make me laugh, but Jeez I’m still chuckling. Absolutely brilliant! She’d be in the LO field canvassing for males to give her supply, so we might have to ask for a volunteer to be a “Narc Marshall”…
PS MJ and Marcia – praise could market the T-shirts???
#LimerenceCamp2025
This discussion is giving me all kinds of amusing thoughts of all the limerents here at LwL having to live out a spell of penance and recovery in some kind of outdoor commune. We’d each have our own tent and tins of beans and then gather round the campfire each evening to tell limerent tales. We’d need someone playing sad music on a harp or something (I’m not that musical, someone else can tell me the right instrument. Maybe L.E. could come down with his oboe?).
🏕🔥
I think I have a spare field over at the farm if anyone’s up for this?
I actually quite want to go to this camp now, to soothe and see off my lingering lim-hangover.
The only way it could possibly go wrong is that we could all start using each other as TOs!
LaR and csc
Hmmmm…. a bunch of Limerents all together sharing stories. What could possibly go wrong, as you say…..!! 😂
Actually, it’s a brilliant idea. I love the idea, probably better than any therapy!
Let us know when the field is ready!
@LaR and @jmmo
Oh my god BaaaaHahahaha
…the harp music ….ahahaha literally laughing right now. Hahaha
I am there. Count me in!!! 🤣
I have to get out of the house obscenely early to go to yoga school today but I WILL reply!
⛺🫘
csc
csc
😂😂😂 made me laugh, too! Thought you were up early on a Saturday!
Have a great yoga session. I’ll look forward to your response to LaR’s great idea 👍😆
I’m thinking it all out here, like campfire songs, how 🚜 can grow all the 🥕🥒🫑🍠🌽 we’ll need to ‘live off the land’ for a while, whittling out some 🪵 for ⛺️ pegs etc etc. Maybe a nightly ritual with a chant where we all renunce our errant ways?!
Please no harp or traverse flutes please. Oboe is fine. Maybe let Lost in Space sing us some songs with his guitar.
Mila,
Was gonna say – we could book motivational guest speakers from LwL past and present? LiS would be a great one to start us off.
Who has any more requests? I think I want Marcia to come and teach us young pretenders some life lessons. And MJ to teach us endurance. Then they could meet each other at the commune and sort out their 🦈 thing once and for all?
Still waiting for Adam’s dance performance in those parachute pants.
And Mila and LaR might be happy to know that I’ve finally procured an ukulele and have painstakingly taught myself a couple (literally…) chords.
Any requests for (easy!) songs for me to learn?
🚜,
You’re not growing any 🍅?
Wouldn’t your farm miss an important color? 😉
Wow Trifles,
That’s so cool! We definitely want to hear your ukulele! Two chords are sufficient for many pop songs😆!
I love that it has taken about half an hour for ‘motivational speakers’ to turn to ‘cabaret’
Trifles – that’s fab news – “I’ve got a brand new combine harvester” please
And 🍅es are a given on my farm as long as they want to grow there. They’re a fruit though, i was only thinking of veg at that point (I grant you that the 🫑 was an error!)
🍅 and 🫑 are treated as fruits in tropical farm?
More 🍑 🍓 🍎 🍇 🥭 🍌 🥝 🍈 🍉 🍐 🥥 🍋🍒 🍋🏵️ circling the entire farm for sight and stomach… yummy 😋
@Trifles
“What’s love got to do with it”?…. 🙄😂
🏵🌱🍅🍑,
If I could grow all that in the UK in May I’d be up for some kind of farming gong!
✊️❄️
L’Amoors 🆎️ 💖🍅
🚫🤢 🍅
@Serial Limerent
Oh heavens. I’m not familiar with the programme, I don’t think it’s been to the UK, however I can so see that being me. What’s even worse, 70 is only 16 years away!! 😱😆
Jmmo, I would love to attempt “What’s love got to do with it” – but the chords looked quite (a) foreign (affair) to me. I need to try some easier songs first.
Since no other entries, “Brand new combine harvester” it is then! 🤦🏼♀️
That’s one performance I can’t wait for.
I’ll do the singing then. First line of the song is below. Could you even make that up?
“I drove my tractor through your haystack last night”
🍅 🙏 💗 🎩 🚜 & L’🅰️m🅾️🅾️🧍👯♂️🧍♂️
🦜👩🏻🦯➡️👁️🔎🌀🤢😶🌫️,⤵️😵💫🤷🏻♀️⁉️ 🤲🪷☸️
🏵️🌱🍅 🈶 👨🏻⚕️📧💪🪽🆙✈️🌄🚀🪽🔺🌅🆎🐦🔥‼️
“⤵️😵💫🤷🏻♀️⁉️”
🚫 🗿🦜
❓️🦜💭🌽📢📢📢🤜🤢❓️
🧊😃🕑⤵️(only)🍑🌠❓️
❓️🧙♀️🧊🍮🗣📧🗣🤲❓️
🌽😡 😡 ⛔️🤢 @ 👨🌾🍸⛺️
❄️⬜️
🎵 https://youtu.be/5sye_VxmNZA?si=DylOiYeugl9K17eI and then the three 🍅👩🦰👩🦰👩🦰 by L’Amoors
🚜, 👎🤜😶🌫️😵💫🧠🌀🥊.
✅ 🧙🧊🗣📧🗣❄️🤲
✅️✅️
🌀 = ❔️
I’m going to learn all the emoji lingo properly one of these days (now signed up for 🍊 classes!) but the point when you tried to teach me it was the point of maximum brain dysfunction. So please bear with my beginner level for now.
👨🏻⚕️🗣️ — “Rise above it like a phoenix :)“🐦🔥
🆎️ F🆎️ is that.
I still think you deserve a 📢📢📢 back or at least a ❌️❌️❌️ But as my much loved 🍮 once told me “Those who know you know it anyway”.
🌀=confused/confusing = 😵💫 = 😶🌫️
👿📉🖤, 🍅 📈🐦🔥❗️
❤️
✊️✊️✊️✊️
We have had a few ⚔️ and only come out with more 🙏🙏 for the other.
All good.
😓
🗣️👿🤬 🔜 ⚧️ ☝️🤯/👿 🔚. 👍😶
🌠 🌱♾️♾️♾️
🕰️ 🤞: 🌱 📶 😊💎 — Stoic ☺️❗️
https://youtu.be/TLOVgO8cvx0?feature=shared — OLYMPICO
@jmmo @LaR
(I don’t mean to leave anyone out, I’m just replying to these two like I said I would earlier 🙂 technically this is for @all :))
Oh my gosh, yes, I have been chuckling over the field of Limerents all day. It was very hard to hold my balance in yoga that is for sure.
I keep getting a visual like a much smaller version of Woodstock, but instead of hippies, there would be limerents of all different walks of life…
an unplowed cornfield, they gather….Some dapper, dressed with vests and pocket watches….some more goth-y, Stevie Nicks meets Elvira vibe, Some regular people wearing regular things, some with old Hollywood glamour style…
All in various tents….someone brought a miniature yurt. One person has what looks like a giant bath towel propped up on sticks like a canopy. Another guy brought a large divan. Somewhere off to the side, a lady with a harp sits, kind of bewildered…a bit unsure of what kind of party she’s actually at, and then a guy on a John Deere rolls up, and says to her “look, lady, just play the harp, you don’t need to know what kind of event this is. But play something sad.”
She begins, but all of a sudden a guy weilding an oboe runs from the woods at the perimeter and bops her on the head. She passes out, (but is clearly unharmed). “I’ll take it from here.” Says the oboeist.
A mournful cry *rah! Rahhhh! Raaaaaaahhhh!” goes up as we break out the cold beans, can-openers slicing through metal with a comforting pfffft….sitting in small groups around warming campfires, some begin to tell stories. Some stare at their own navels, while others have brought mementos of their LO’s to lightly, longingly caress.
One lady sits on the dirt in front of her tent, carefully cupping an expired gym membership card in her palm.
Suppressing the urge to howl like a dying wolf, she instead rises slowly to her feet, and goes to join her friends. :))
I’m the guy wearing the hoodie that says “Un-obtainable females 30 and under only please”
Marcia will be with me and is wearing a t-shirt that on the front says “Hot and Feisty” and on the back is ” For MJ”
With a hug emoji.. 🤗
#LimerenceCamp2025
@csc,
Absolutely love it!
And hey, if we drive the John Deere just a little further … what’s that I see going on in the next field? Why, at the “we never asked for this” party, it’s only all our bewildered LOs fraternising together!
Well I’ll be damned. If yours and mine aren’t getting on just a bit *too* well! He’s struggling a bit with all her crazy ideas but flexing his gym muscles. And look, there’s Justme’s LO, watching the pair in disgust from the sidelines, screaming like a banshee “why isn’t he talking to meeeeeeee?”
But here come Marcia and MJ in their pink stretch lim-mo (see what I did there?) to restore order. All’s good
#limerencecamp25
And here comes Adam in his leather suspenders and sporting his “Sammy Hagar is the real Van Halen” T-shirt just to stir the pot.
(Tbf Right Now is their only good song and that was Sammy so ….) I watched/heard that song for the first time with Momma in 1999 when we were watching VH1 videos she recorded on VHS 🙂
No, Adam.
You don’t get that easily out of the parachute pants- dance. You can wear leather suspenders over them or later.
The song of the sad harp—
*****
Dream Nest
Dana Levin
More like a basket
of twig and hair,
surprisingly
tall
and deep—
in a tree
outside my bedroom
window.
I knew
something lived in there
you wouldn’t assume
lived in a nest.
Then I knew:
a human lived there.
And once I knew—
the nest, nearly
disintegrated,
still in the tree.
It wasn’t about trauma, the perfect
and then the broken
nest
in which a human
lived—
Born and lit and broken
comes I.
********
Western Proverb: “Don’t wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.”
Marcus Aurelius — “Choose not to be harmed, you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.”
Chinese proverb: “Fight with a madman, you become a lunatic.“
Lao Tzu —”Water is the softest thing, yet it can penetrate mountains and earth.”
Oneliness
E E Cummings
I(a
le
af
fa
ll
s)
one
l
iness
*****
Another 🎶 of the
Oneliness
E E Cummings
l(a
le
af
fa
ll
s)
one
l
iness
*****
Another 🎶 of the
Yeah, even the most well-preserved and lovely women at my church in my age group are showing signs of aging. It’s distressing….But our worth should not be centered on something we only have so much control over. Makeup, healthy habits, moisturizing, hair—these are things we can control. But not genetics or time.
@Trifles.
I have just read some of your other responses e.g. the one regarding Lambert and Pink and the one regarding you fooling your professors into believing you’re a smart cookie. 🤣
I misjudged you. You are such an incredibly sweet woman, and your sense of humour is cute. You roll with the punches. You’re not terribly bothered by harsh feedback. You’re secure enough in yourself that you don’t take yourself too seriously. My INTP friend – again, he was exactly the same. (Wasn’t a woman, but did have this happy-go-lucky, go-along-to-get-along vibe about him). 😉
Madame, consider yourself a conqueror, for you have made at least one conquest at LwL. I.e. I am a fan of yours. (A fan of yours in the non-limerent sense). 😜
CSC and Adam…
I have considered telling my Dear Wife about LwL and letting her read my post ( and other persons Limerence experience posts ) but I very worried she would be upset / hurt by some of the things I have posted. I am not ashamed of what I have said here… but I think it some things would distress her …. I have kind of used this site as an anonymous / therapy site… a safe space as it were to speak openly… but it would likely hurt her, as she prefers NOT to hear the details AT ALL of my time with Friend.
Have any others besides Adam had their SO read these postings?
—————————————————————-
Un-related ( maybe unrelated? ) I had a Wonderful time with my Friend on our walk… I am not aware of any big High, but a VERY pleasant time, we connected SO well today! We got back from the walk our almost 90 walk just in time for her husband to pick her up.
As is understand the general ( everyone here? ) consensus here…. lovely and very pleasant tho my relationship with Friend is… I am just digging a deeper LE hole?
I just feel our friendship was “clicking” so well today… very comfortable on both sides. Doesn’t feel like Limerence when we are together… just comfortable ( but she does still Shine )
I feel unable to say no to spending time with her, but I know I will feel little to none stress and suffering this weekend, I am relaxed right now ( always have Monday to look forward to )
I really hope this a turning point in my LE, into just a good Friendship ( more self delusions ? )
To NTL:
I certainly can’t tell if you’re reaching a turning point. If your limerence is subsiding, then that would be a turning point. But if you’re just feeling satiated because of contact with your friend, then I think you’re just digging yourself in deeper.
I hesitate to comment, because our situations are so very different. However, I notice that when I spend time with LO, I am happy with my “fix” and feel fine for a while. Then I start to become distressed, like a junkie needing my substance.
As long as I am addicted to LO, I am going to suffer. What happens in your head when you have to skip your walk, or your friend isn’t at work?
I think we can evaluate our stability by how well or poorly we do when we are denied the companionship of our LOs. Anybody can be pleasant and stable when things are going well. I am having a very rough time right now with LO, and it shows in my overall functioning. I sometimes fool myself into thinking I’m doing better than I actually am.
Norma…
I do agree with you on most points –
– I should look at how I feel / behave without seeing my Friend, and getting a “hit”
– just 2 or 3 days ago I was very down / detached when I missed seeing her / going on a walk… as you said… distressed… today, all sunshine and roses!
– I noticed I typed in above… ” I always have Monday to look forward to”… sounds a bit to me NOW like a drug addict saying ” I only have to wait a couple of days then I can get high “-
– am I really just a friend with Friend ( feels like it during the walks )… or is this an Emotional Affair on both our sides??? If I need to ask myself this, are we ALREADY in an EA??
I usually post with an open mind, almost stream of consciousness.. upon re-reading my posts and the replies…. I am almost seeing it as if Someone Else had posted it… a bit… un-nerving sometimes… altered state of mind indeed!
I am not sure what to say about the idea of an emotional affair. I am not qualified to discuss it, perhaps somebody smarter will chime in.
My opinion is that it doesn’t really matter. There is an addictive quality that is almost frightening to these relationships. What if you spent every spare minute with a male relative? Or a pet? Could you be limerent for an animal?
I guess what I am saying is that I don’t think it matters what you call it. The addiction and the longing are the problem. Since I typed my last reply to you, my LO texted me, and my entire mood has changed, and it makes me uneasy. LO has the power to completely turn my mood 180 degrees. Of course I’m happy to be with him and to get kindly messages from him, but it goes the other way, as well.
And nobody should have that kind of power over me.
Norma… I am sorry, I forgot to say… I meant to say this first, as it was most important to me… I am sorry to hear you are having a very rough time… you have not just got my sympathy, but empathy. Be kind to yourself.
Thank you so much for those kind words. I don’t seem to be able to extricate myself from limerence. The issue will be taken out of my hands, inasmuch as LO is selling his house and moving a great distance away. He just returned from a house-hunting trip.
It would be nice if I could become indifferent to LO, his house, and all his other issues. I think it will all just have to wear off after he’s gone.
Thank you for listening.
Norma…
You are really challenging me to think!
You are right… the Power we give over us, we give to people and things… it can be frightening.
I know people who collect “things”… guitars, shoes, books, the latest technology, motorcycles… they give the hunt for and acquisition of these “things” power over them, they become obsessive and compulsive… for some I know it becomes all consuming.
Or gambling, or drugs and alcohol… for some it takes over their lives.
Or for some of us… it takes the form of Limerence for a person. For me, as a very non-addictive person… this had become very distressing… before I learned about Limerence I truly thought I was losing my mind. 🙁
” I guess what I am saying is that I don’t think it matters what you call it. The addiction and the longing are the problem. Since I typed my last reply to you, my LO texted me, and my entire mood has changed, and it makes me uneasy. LO has the power to completely turn my mood 180 degrees. Of course I’m happy to be with him and to get kindly messages from him, but it goes the other way, as well.
And nobody should have that kind of power over me.”
This really hits home to me… thank you… and again, be kind to yourself
@newtolimerence interesting. I was just wondering if there was an overlap between addictive personalities and limerents.
I sometimes look at other co-workers… many of my female co-workers are very nice, intelligent, some very attractive woman, some of more appropriate ( to me )ages and single… how can I just view them as pleasant people to work with, many of whom I enjoy talking to as we work…
I often am envious ( I was once like those I now am envious of ) of how they can all just view each other just coworkers, colleagues, etc. Not obsessed with each other. Not constantly thinking about them.
But my Friend…. she GLIMMERS.
I didnt explain this well… I hope some of you understand this rambling. Stream of consciousness stuff.
New_to_Limerence, Adam and others discussing these topics,
There have been a few scattered comments lately on issues of spousal disclosures and EAs. Replying down here as have lost track of the scrolling.
I admire all those of you who have told your spouses what you’ve got or had going on. I have never had the bottle to do it, but I think it is an act of great integrity and faith in your relationships by those of you who have.
On the reverse side – I think it is asking a lot of our spouses to hope they might understand limerence scientifically, or even go to the effort of trying to. I think it is a lot to expect that they’d be able to distinguish our LEs from the concept of an EA. Think about what it must be like for them to hear “I have spent the last year thinking of another woman/man” or “I am constantly in highs and lows because of the dopamine that another woman/man gives me”. How is that going to sound to them? It would take a *very* rational and committed person to then do all the reading needed to tease apart limerence from “they are in an EA” or even “they want a PA”.
As to the question ‘when is in EA an EA?’ … there is loads of dispute about definitions. But the sort of questions that always hit home to me were ‘am I giving LO actual and psychological time and space that I could give to SO?’, ‘when something happens, is LO often/ sometimes the first person I want to tell?’, ‘am I sharing emotional stuff with LO that I should be sharing with SO? (or worse still, emotional stuff about SO to LO)?’. When I answer those questions honestly, I can’t deny the fact I was in an EA of some form. There was a time I couldn’t even scroll social media without every sponsored ad being something that connected me to LO or reminded me of her. Even ‘big tech’ knew it! When *I* realised it, that’s when I knew it had to end and started taking steps to end it.
LaR,
I’d like to ask a question of the marrieds and the partnereds. Something I’ve always wondered. Doesn’t your SO notice? I don’t mean that they know you’re limerent but don’t they notice changes in your behavior, shifts in your demeanor, etc.? I’d think if you were living with someone, even subtle changes would be picked up on, and I think being limerent would be hard to completely hide. Don’t they ask what’s going on with you? Or is it that they don’t want to go there? Don’t want to ask? Or is it something tacit between you — they sense something is up with you and you know they sense it, but neither party will bring it up? Or … sorry to word is it like this … you two aren’t that in tune and they don’t notice?
Marcia
My Dear Wife told me that , before I Disclosed ( about 6 weeks ago ) that she had very much noticed I was “not right”. This convinced me that I HAD to tell her about me Limerence, as she was really thinking I was having a PA or more likely an EA with my Friend at work.
She is still having trouble with my relationship / spending so much time with my Friend at work, and doesn’t want to hear any details at all, but knows that spending time with my Friend “calms me down” and levels me out. She is being as patient as she can with me, and in some ways it has brought my Dear Wife and I closer…. she knows I love her.
Based on what you have just said about your wife, then I would not bring her to this website. I think less is more when discussing the topic with her.
I hope you are able to be present with your wife over the weekend. I remember you said earlier that you had Monday to look forward to. Yes, of course you do. But don’t forget to live your life before then.
New to Limerence,
” This convinced me that I HAD to tell her about me Limerence, as she was really thinking I was having a PA or more likely an EA with my Friend at work.”
Ah. I’ve often wondered that, too. Doesn’t the SO suspect an affair if they can tell something is off?
“but knows that spending time with my Friend “calms me down” and levels me out. She is being as patient as she can with me, and in some ways it has brought my Dear Wife and I closer…. she knows I love her.”
I’m glad it’s brought you closer. Has she asked about how you plan to get over the LE? Or is that one of the details she doesn’t want to know? So you’ve only had the one conversation about your LE? Do you think she’ll bring it up again at some point? She’s OK with you seeing your LO every day at work?
I’m kind of impressed with your wife. Really
😀
Marcia,
It’s a very fair and reasonable question, one I have thought about a lot, and one that I will happily take a punt at later when I’ve got time. I would also love to hear what other married or partnered limerents would say about it though.
Marcia,
I’ll step in if that’s ok, as LaR was interested in the perspectives if others. Hopefully it’s a conversation that NtL will find helpful, too.
I am also married. In the case of my SO, I have never disclosed to her. Usually what happens is that she will spot there is something wrong (a dip in my mood) and will ask me about it. I’m never really great at talking about me, and she is aware of my history of moderate depression. So, in a way, I’m “lucky”(!) that I have that to shield me somewhat. I do also feel that LEs, particularly this last one which has been brutal, bring on my depression anyway.
Marcia,
Mine is a bit similar to JM’s. She definitely sniffed something was off. Often asked if I was Ok. I had a lot of plausible other reasons to give for why I wasn’t, to do with family and work situations. I think limerents tend to amplify these sorts of thing in the early days to get a safety net up. Also, our relationship was rocky when the LE started.
That said, I don’t think it fooled her. I think she knew and I think she knew who it was too. She danced around the subject / the person a fair bit but never came close to a direct challenge of me.
I think there was a big element of “didn’t want to go there”. I don’t think she wanted confirmation of what she suspected. I think there was trust that there was no PA and that whatever I’d got myself into, I’d get myself out of.
As you told me the other day, there’s a lot of guesswork there. But as you asked, that’s my best guess.
LaR and Jmmo,
And do you think if your SOs had found out the real reason you weren’t ok (maybe they stumbled on some emails, for example) and that you had not given them all the information when they asked, would they have been angry? Felt lied to?
What if the situation was flipped and they were limerent and you sensed something was off with them and you asked and they gave you a vague or pat answer but didn’t disclose the limerence? Would you want to know the truth? Would you be angry that they fudged their answer?
Hi Marcia
In the case of my SO, I don’t think that it would have gone down well. I think that she would have felt betrayed. Im not sure whether or not she would have suspected a PA, but I think the fact that I had engaged in EA – purely through my feelings for LO would have been hard enough for her to take.
I should also add Marcia, in answer to your original question, that my job involves predominantly working with females. It’s been my career for 20+ years, and SO is used to me having female friends, including one who I meet for lunch 2-3 times a year. She has no problem with that.
As to your last question, again it’s a very fair one and one that deserves a good answer. It’s one that I’ve been really struggling to find an answer for myself. The truth is, that whilst I suspect I would be hurt/angry/jealous, etc it’s something that is so far from reality that I just can’t place myself there to picture it. I’d hate you to think that I’m taking SO fro granted (but would understand if you did), however I think I can say that SO is non- Limerent. Entirely. I don’t think that she would be capable of developing feelings for someone else. It’s something about her that I’m quite envious of.
That doesn’t feel like a very satisfactory answer, Marcia, but I hope that it makes sense.
Jmmo
Jmmo,
This is a tough one but I have to ask: did you not tell her for self-preseervation? You say it wouldn’t have gone down well. You didn’t want to live with someone who was upset and angry with you? And this is a general question (not an attack on you): does the partner/spouse have the right to know? Particularly if the limerence would rise to the level, in their minds, of being relationship-ending?
And as to your other point, I guess I don’t understand it. Ok, she’s not a limerent, but there are people who out of the blue become limerent for the first time in their lives. You fell for someone else. Why couldn’t she?
Marcia,
“would they have been angry? Felt lied to?”
Yes and yes. It would not have gone down well but in the case of my SO it wouldn’t have been as bad as a PA (that would have been a deal breaker whereas I think with discovery of the LE I would have ended up more in a similar boat to Adam – not dumped but in a lot of trouble)
“Would you want to know the truth? Would you be angry that they fudged their answer?”
I’d want to think about this, but instinctively yes I would. I might be more sympathetic towards it having lived through it myself, if I believed there was no PA. But I’m not going to lie and say it would be easy to take or that i know for sure how I’d react.
(To your question to JM as I anticipate you may want to know the same from me)
“Did you not tell her for self-preseervation?”
Partly yes, and partly because I believed I had got myself into the mess and could and should get myself out of it.
These answers are facts, not attempted justifications or me trying to claim I did things ‘right’
Marcia
It’s a fair point to make. No, actually. My motives were not primarily selfish. I did not tell her because I did not wish to “inflict” that on her. She has been through a tough couple of years after losing her mother and then having to fight legal cases, which of course I have fully supported her with.
I guess that I knew that it would end. It’s not my 1st LE, although it’s the first one where I’ve known what it is. There just didn’t seem any point. And if I had told her – I’m not sure what that would have achieved. I’m now desperately trying to leave this LE and all of them behind. This LO has gad a very negative effect on me. I knit say that I’ve case you think I’m still pursuing her. I most definitely am doing the exact opposite.
My last point you didn’t understand. That’s fair. Yes, anyone could. I only had some writings of Dr L in my head when I was trying to answer your question. I honestly can’t imagine her ever succumbing to it, or allowing herself to be tempted. But then I dare say she’d say the same about me.
Sorry, that’s the best I can do.
Jmmo
LAR,
“Yes and yes. ”
I feel the same way. Especially if I asked and I got a flim flam answer. I would be very angry. I think I have a right to be told. So I know what I’m dealing with.
“It would not have gone down well but in the case of my SO it wouldn’t have been as bad as a PA (that would have been a deal breaker whereas I think with discovery of the LE I would have ended up more in a similar boat to Adam – not dumped but in a lot of trouble)”
Personally, I’d rather a partner have a one nighter with a rando he didn’t care about than be obsessed with someone else for months or years. I realize that’s not a common opinion.
“ I believed I had got myself into the mess and could and should get myself out of it.”
I mean, I agree that the limerent is responsible for his own recovery. That’s too much to ask of a partner. To help with it. But to the spouses who are helping … it’s impressive.
Jmmo,
“I did not tell her because I did not wish to “inflict” that on her. She has been through a tough couple of years after losing her mother and then having to fight legal cases, which of course I have fully supported her with.”
Gotcha.
“I guess that I knew that it would end. It’s not my 1st LE, although it’s the first one where I’ve known what it is.”
Here’s a good point. So you’ve had repeated LEs while being with your wife? Is that something that should be disclosed to a partner? That the limerent is predisposed to limerence? Kind of like alcoholism or depressive episodes that could recur, etc.?
” I honestly can’t imagine her ever succumbing to it, or allowing herself to be tempted. But then I dare say she’d say the same about me.”
I’m not sure what you mean by succumbing to it. Forgive me in that I’m on a cell phone and digging through old posts isn’t easy. How far did your LE go? You can’t imagine your wife falling for someone else? Or going further with it … and having an EA and/or a PA?
Marcia
By “succumbing to it” I meant that if she was even tempted by someone else in terms of having repeated and deepening thoughts about them, I doubt that she would go there. She would be able to switch off those thoughts. I think that as limerents we possibly find that quite difficult to imagine.
I think that this is the 2nd LE I’ve had in 20 years with SO. I realise now that I’ve had others beforehand, but having them in a marriage or relationship is clearly a bigger thing. You speak absolute sense Marcia about the limerence/addiction conversation, it’s just not for us. It would cause too much distress to her I think.
In answer to your question about this LE, the furthest it ever went was a few hugs and cheek kisses. From a physical pov it was nothing at all. The damage that it has done to me has been begavioural and psychological.
Jmmo,
“it’s just not for us. It would cause too much distress to her I think.”
It is similar here. Like ‘I made this mess in my head, SO didn’t. So provided I can work my way out of it, does SO really deserve to be hurt by knowing about it / having it confirmed?’
Marcia and others might disagree. It is one I can really see both arguments on. For those on here who have reported telling their SOs, the response hasn’t been as horrendous as I might have predicted. Some are actively fighting it as a couple.
I’m just checking in. Have been away for a while. So many interesting conversations going on. This place helped me so much but I find reading and interacting too much flares up my limerence too much.
Wanted to update. It will be close to 1.5 years since I talked to LO. He tried calling me several times in that period and I texted something very generic back a couple of times. because of mutual friends and acquaintances. I was one that against all advice and wisdom and disclosed and it was not mutual. It’s a long story. He used to my boss and taught one of my kids so very hard to go total no contact.
The last 2 times he called was in the past month. I have to say I have no idea why he does this and it really plays with my mind. Very low contact has helped me manage this awful addiction.
I say manage because the calls do cause a flare of symptoms and I know I’m not out of the woods yet. It’s hard to not call back but I don’t want to go back. Anyway, today it is tempting to reach out and that would not be good in any way, shape or form. I’m feeling very angry given the history of this whole thing that he keeps calling. I just want to be free. Anyway wishing you all the best and for all to be limerence free soon.
Hi Beth 2
I don’t think we’ve “met”, but it’s lovely to come across you. I am trying to extricate myself from a very unpleasant LE and “toxic” (I know….) LO.
Forgive the obviousness of this question, theee are bound to be reasons why you haven’t or it wouldn’t work, but are you able or prepared to go NC? My LO is work based, but I’ve had to do it for my sanity.
I hope that you are doing ok
Justmeandmyobsessions (Just me/Jmmo) x
Mine is a long story. I no longer work with or have contact with him except for social media. I’m hesitant to give that up because of mutual friends and family members. Don’t want to have to explain to anyone if that makes sense.
We both have spouses. I got very caught up in the whole limerence mess and it was wrong. I’ve been in therapy and it’s helping. Your mind is going to do everything it can to hang on to LO and connect with them. It will also analyze every interaction and make a bigger deal of them than it needs to be.
I’ve seen a few of your posts and I can empathize. Try to reduce your contact as much as you can. Change jobs if it’s feasible. This can get to a point where you’re not acting rationally anymore. The sooner you can break contact the better. Realize your brain is lying to you. One thing that helped me is to allow myself to only think about reality. No making up interactions or scenarios with LO. I came to realize that reality was quite boring as was the LO. Your wife sounds like a wonderful woman. Do for her what you want to do for your LO. Give her the energy and focus you’re giving LO. It will start to change your focus. I have to look at my LO as a dormant virus ready to flare. That might sound harsh but there’s nothing lovely or beautiful about EAs giving someone else what only your spouse deserves. You can do this and you’ll be better off in the long run. Wishing you the best
Jmmo,
“By “succumbing to it” I meant that if she was even tempted by someone else in terms of having repeated and deepening thoughts about them, I doubt that she would go there. She would be able to switch off those thoughts. I think that as limerents we possibly find that quite difficult to imagine.”
Yes, true.
She doesn’t sound like she’s a limerent. Do you think in the beginning of your relationship that you had the mutual “in love” infatuation phase?
“You speak absolute sense Marcia about the limerence/addiction conversation, it’s just not for us. It would cause too much distress to her I think.”
I don’t mean you have the talk now, about a specific LO, but in general … is it something like eating issues or depression or anxiety or a difficult relationship with one’s family that is maybe some drama? Everybody has something. Is limerence just another “thing” to have?
Marcia
“Do you think in the beginning of your relationship that you had the mutual “in love” infatuation phase?”
I’ve thought about this a lot. No, I don’t think we had that. I don’t mean that we didn’t have an infatuation phase, but it wasn’t the “fireworks” that often happen. Ours was a slow-burner, and it matured over a period of time. I don’t remember being obsessed by her, I remember it just being…. right. It’s difficult to describe. I just know that when I decided to ask her to marry me, I just knew. I think I’d had an LE before. This was nothing like it. No panic, no internal dramas. It just wasn’t necessary.
Sorry – I thought that you meant “ have the talk now”. It’s something to think about, I guess. Would I want to make her aware of it after 25 years together, in my mid-50s? I don’t know. Something to consider….
Jmmo
LaR,
“It is similar here. Like ‘I made this mess in my head, SO didn’t. So provided I can work my way out of it, does SO really deserve to be hurt by knowing about it / having it confirmed?’”
I think that’s it exactly. I suppose that in my addled brain, I’m having enough trouble coming to terms with another LE, whilst getting my head around the whole Limerence concept and, especially, what makes me prone to it, to even think about how I would address it with SO, let alone introduce limerence to her as a “thing”.
I too have seen some stories here about couples who have worked through it. When I first heard Dr L talk on a podcast about how he had discussed with his wife, I winced – as I just can’t imagine doing it. I would make the suggestion however that having another Limerent as an SO MIGHT make it easier. However maybe not if the SO wasn’t aware of limerence.
God this stuff is complicated 🤦🏼♂️
Jmmo,
“Ours was a slow-burner, and it matured over a period of time. I don’t remember being obsessed by her, I remember it just being…. right. It’s difficult to describe. I just know that when I decided to ask her to marry me, I just knew. I think I’d had an LE before. This was nothing like it. No panic, no internal dramas. It just wasn’t necessary.”
From what I’ve read and heard on relationship advice websites and podcasts, that’s how it should be. Feeling anxious and unsure and overwhelmed by attraction are warning sounds the person is triggering your internal “stuff.” The one big one I had was an LO, started out with fireworks (for me, anyway) … and then all the hormones wore off … and boy did I see him clearly. You’d think I would have learned from that and not gone looking for fireworks with the next person!
“Would I want to make her aware of it after 25 years together, in my mid-50s? I don’t know. Something to consider….”
Idk. I was thinking it would be a topic of discussion early on, when you’re getting to know each others’ faults and foibles. Of course, if you partner up young, there’s a big chance you won’t even understand limerence or know what is it. I’ve had repeated LEs throughout my life. I used to think it was how everyone experienced “love.”
In terms of telling a spouse… I’d take yourself and your own concerns/interests out of it as much as humanly possible… knowing them as you do, would they want to know? Would they feel betrayed if you didn’t tell them (or fudged the reasons you gave if they asked why you seemed off) or would they prefer not to know?
I apologize in advance for what is going to be a dreary post.
LO texted me last night after a long absence. He went to Europe on business for three weeks, was back for a few days, then went house-hunting on the other side of the country. So I have barely seen him in over a month and we have a lot of catching up to do.
He mentioned getting together this weekend, and I reminded him that tomorrow is Mother’s Day. I asked if he was going to have to spend the entire day with his mom? I mentioned that he was kind enough to invite me over last year on Mother’s Day, and it was a relief to have something fun to do since I have three adult daughters who do not speak to me. Mother’s Day is a major drag for me, and I dread it every year.
LO said he’d get back to me. He is somewhat flaky, so it’s entirely possible that he won’t contact me at all. So of course I have to be prepared for any and all eventualities.
And it occurred to me that I allow myself to have way too much riding on this. I have no control over what LO will do. He is not a particularly attentive friend, and I don’t really trust him to come through.
My challenge this weekend is to create interesting and enjoyable activities for myself that don’t include LO. It’s a shame that I have allowed myself to get to a place where my definition of a successful day depends on whether or not LO contacts me.
Oh Norma, I’m sorry to hear this.
Forgive my ignorance – we’ve only talked a few times and I don’t know your story that well. I’m assuming that there is/are reason/reasons why keeping LO in your sights is ….. necessary? I only ask as it seems that he has you as you say “depending on him”. Don’t feel that you need to repeat your whole story, I’m just wondering if it is that your LE has not yet dwindled to the point where you can shut him off, as it were.
I would like to wish you a happy Mother’s Day, and I hope that tomorrow is a day of fulfilment in whatever form it takes.
Jmmo ❤️
To JMMO:
I am not very far along in my journey and my LE has dwindled a little, but not as much as I would have liked. I have been obsessed with LO for two years, and I can feel it lessening somewhat. However, I am still nuts about him and he is always at the top of my list.
If I say otherwise, then I am just lying to myself, and I refuse to do that. I have read at different points on this site that lying is a part of being limerent, but I have not found that to be the case, since I don’t have SO and LO does not either. I told him right up front that I have a crush on him, to give him the opportunity to refuse to be friends with me if he chose.
So I have at least been able to be honest with LO and myself, which makes the situation a little less complicated.
Even though LO sees me as a friend, there are obviously problems because of the limerence, and he is not terribly attentive, as I said before. He knows I have a tough time on my birthday, Christmas, and Mother’s Day, yet he is not always motivated to reach out.
He owes me nothing, but it would be nice if he was a little more thoughtful.
Dear Norma
Thank you for filling in some details. Alas, it all sounds very familiar. I wonder, have you been Limerent before? If you have, then please forgive me for preaching to the converted, but I’ll tell you what I have found.
Eventually, either through your own choice or not, his continued inattentiveness will make something snap within you. You will reach a point where you decide that “I deserve better than this/you.” You’ve obviously got some way there, but it’s early days.
I know you’ve said he’s moving away. My advice – for what it’s worth – when he does, initiate NC. It would seem like the perfect time. Apart from anything, you would be taking control rather than him moving away and becoming even less attentive. Just my thoughts.
The fact that you don’t have an SO? Yes. In a way it’s less complicated. However, you’re finding yourself unable to find Dr L’s purposeful living as there is no-one nothing to provide you with purpose when LO is being inattentive?
I really do think that for your own sake and future wellbeing you need to leave LO behind. It will be hard. It is. I’ve done it. I just think until you do you are at his mercy, and I don’t want that for you.
I hope I haven’t offended you or overstated my advice.
Happy Mother’s Day
Jmmo x
To JMMO:
Thank you for your reply. To answer your question, I was limerent once before, about 45 years ago.
You can go ahead and preach, I am not all that knowledgeable or experienced. I need to hear this stuff.
Happy Mother’s Day, Norma! 🧡
You know you LOVE them in your heart, regardless whether they know or reciprocate your deep love, that really COUNTS!
To give love, through your actions and heart, without expecting, requesting, or demanding love or gratitude in return is the noble side of an unrequited love. It applies between parents and children, too.
Marcia says
May 10, 2025 at 6:18 pm
New to Limerence,
” This convinced me that I HAD to tell her about me Limerence, as she was really thinking I was having a PA or more likely an EA with my Friend at work.”
Ah. I’ve often wondered that, too. Doesn’t the SO suspect an affair if they can tell something is off?
“but knows that spending time with my Friend “calms me down” and levels me out. She is being as patient as she can with me, and in some ways it has brought my Dear Wife and I closer…. she knows I love her.”
I’m glad it’s brought you closer. Has she asked about how you plan to get over the LE? Or is that one of the details she doesn’t want to know? So you’ve only had the one conversation about your LE? Do you think she’ll bring it up again at some point? She’s OK with you seeing your LO every day at work?
I’m kind of impressed with your wife. Really
———————————————————
She has asked about how all this plays out… I anticipate my Friend leaving our mutual workplace with a year… I will really miss her, but that will be full NC. In the meanwhile ( and I suspect I am lying to myself ) I think I have the Limerence under better control these days. Dear Wife and I have had a few ( not very pleasant ) conversations regarding Friend ( whom she has called a few choice words )… she prefers not to hear anything about her / our walks. She is trying to be understanding, it is not easy for her, but accepts, kind of, that I describe my Friend as both a good friend and an “addiction”.
I am impressed by my Dear Wife too. I would NOT be as understanding if roles were reversed, I think
I just read a short article about the commercialization of Mother’s Day. The lady who started Mother’s Day later tried to remove it from the calendar because she was distressed over what it had become.
I found myself wondering about this. Did she think that commercialism REPLACED a true expression of love? The two can co-exist together.
Obviously genuine love is more important than flowers or balloons. It would be nice to have both, actually.
I have three adult daughters who don’t speak to me. My challenge today will be to find something pleasant to do that doesn’t involve me thinking about them, or LO, too much.
Thanks for listening.
Happy Mother’s Day, Norma! 🧡
You know you LOVE them in your heart, regardless whether they know or reciprocate your deep love, that really COUNTS!
To give love, through your actions and heart, without expecting, requesting, or demanding love or gratitude in return is the noble side of an unrequited love. It applies between parents and children, too.
Thank you for your nice message.
I am going to re-read it several times today, it’s so beautifully worded.
Hello Norma…
“I have three adult daughters who don’t speak to me. ”
Just know that you are not just ” yelling into the void “… we can hear you!
I have more I could add to this, but for now I will just quietly just listen to you.
To NTL:
Thank you for your kind words, they help more than you know.
New to Limerence,
“She is trying to be understanding, it is not easy for her, but accepts, kind of, that I describe my Friend as both a good friend and an “addiction”.”
Right. So you have to cut out the source of the addiction. It’s really the only way to get over an LE. Going NC. (Or in your case, because you work together, going as LC as possible.) Right now your spending time with your LO is just prolonging the limerence. Every limerent tries to figure out a way to have the LO in their life while not disrupting the rest of their life. It’s… I’m sorry… a little greedy if you’re partnered. It’s called “caking.” Cutting the LO out is very difficult. I’m not saying it isn’t. Very hard.
To NtL
I gave just read Marcia’s reply. As a Limerent who has just had a work LO, Marcia is quite right. I went back and forth and back again, until I reached the point where NC and total blocking was the only way.
Now it maybe (and I hope) that yours is a much “better” LO than mine, it which case being as strict might not be necessary. It may also be that you work closer with yours, meaning NC isn’t possible. But I can assure you, that you are going to HAVE to go maximum LC. There is no other way. For your sake and that if your wife, I’m afraid it is the hard but only option.
I wish you well.
Jmmo
Jmmo…
I do appreciate the Standard Logic is to go NC…. rip off the bandaid as it were.
I could only go LC, and basically stop the walks.
I am trying to lose / control the LE, but keep the friend ( lower case f ) and our walks / time together.
I will likely not succeed, but I am on that path now. No… lets use Positive Thinking… I WILL succeed!
Hello Marcia…
Yes, it is greedy… I do want my Friend in my life. I feel I am internally managing the LE better…. no waking up in the middle of the night thinking about her, for example. I am able to focus on other things in my life more. Dear Wife and I are planning to spend most of Friday out on a “date” ( a baseball game and dinner! )
( And I am aware I am lying to myself somewhat… I have mentioned it a few times here. )
I know that Friend and I are a bit different as a LE… actual friends who spend a large amount of almost daily, pretty intimate, time together, it just so happens I am Limerent for her
But, as I said… I am sleeping better, no waking up 5 times a night with her in my head, no text messages outside of work anymore, no re-reading old messages ( deleted ), no social media.
Just a good work relationship, and our walks.
I don’t really want to lose her as a friend… but I would be good if she was just a friend, and not a Friend ( a LO )
To NTL:
I am glad you are improving. However, I would caution you not to over-estimate how much progress you’ve made. If LO was absent from work for say, a week, would you still feel as stable as you’re feeling now?
I am only using my own experience as an example because, frankly, that’s all I know. When I see LO and get a “fix,” I am fine for a while. But then I become uncomfortable and need another contact. Just like a drug.
Now your LO seems to be a lot more kindly than mine, but do you want to have to depend on someone at the office for mood stabilization?
Hello Norma
I like that your approach is ” how do I behave / think without a constant fix?” Am I only Stable now because of getting time with Friend???
I do think ( there is that word again ) I am improving.. and yes, my Friend is kind ( but also enjoys our walks and time together, as she has few other friends, and NO other male friends ) so I don’t wish to hurt her at all by going LC
I want to depend on myself and Dear Wife for my moods. One of my life Rules is that our lives are our own responsibility
To NTL:
I don’t have any experience with your type of situation, so I can’t offer advice on that basis.
But I would encourage you to be honest with yourself as to how well you’re actually doing. The people who have had workplace limerent experiences don’t seem to think this is going to end well.
New to Limerence,
“I don’t really want to lose her as a friend… but I would be good if she was just a friend, and not a Friend ( a LO )”
Not everyone agrees with me on this, but I don’t think you can be friends with an LO. I hesitate to write you can be friends after the LE is over … because then you’ll just white knuckle it until you can be friends again. No one tells an alcoholic to not drink for six months and then we’ll see how they are doing and if they say they are better, they can drink again. I know you don’t want to hear this, but the LO has to be dead to you. IMO, it’s the only to heal.
My LO was a co-worker. I had gone LC (took me forever to do that), only seeing him intermittently when I had to. But seeing him still bothered me. I finally went NC. And then there was a period after NC of getting over the anger at him. And myself.
Marcia
Which is exactly where I am now. Although it has dissipated slightly, my venom towards her is very poisonous.
Jmmo,
“Which is exactly where I am now. Although it has dissipated slightly, my venom towards her is very poisonous.”
Personally, I think being angry is a little easier than being sad. But I blamed him for everything.
And then I got mad at myself. How much time I wasted. How I didn’t have the guts to tell him off and leave me alone. How it was so painfully obvious there was so little going on between us … why did it take me so long to accept that?
Jmmo,
The venom will dissipate with time. Maybe not totally, but it will.
I think it will be important to moving on to try and flip the focus onto yourself a bit – what left you vulnerable to glimmer with someone like her at this point? What could you do to reduce the chances of it happening again, or at least to recognise the threat early and turn away from it? These are here as questions for you to think on rather than because I’m after hearing answers. I’m working through all this stuff for myself now too.
Hope going back tomorrow goes OK. Use some of those morning tips and I will too!
Song of the Post: “Can We Still Be Friends” – Todd Rundgren (1978)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTk1nXh5RYM#ddg-play
See, Marcia? I made it all the way into the late 70s!
Marcia & LaR
Absolutely. I’ve become aware that at least some of anger is directed at myself. In terms of what I’m doing about it – well, I’m in therapy; the primary focus being “what the hell is wrong that allows this to keep happening to you?!”
I have a huge amount of self-learning to do, and I fully intend to do it. Without doubt, this LE has been probably the worst, but only because I’m so much more aware. Thanks for your guidance, both.
LaR – I feel more ready to go back to work than I thought I would. No doubt there will be set backs, but my counselling and my reflections have given me tools. The only way she can contact me is via work systems. If she does, I think I’m ready.
Morning tips: I have taken your advice and reintroduced mindfulness sessions. On Friday, I trialled setting the alarm and leaving time for mindfulness before I get up. It felt good. Trust me mate, I am working my way through them. I’ll keep you posted.
Jmmo
LE,
“Song of the Post: “Can We Still Be Friends” – Todd Rundgren (1978)”
Good song.
“See, Marcia? I made it all the way into the late 70s!”
Ok. I was wrong. Your references are all from the ’60s through the mid-’80s. Happy now? 🙂
What happened in the the mid-’80s to … er … stop your pop culture evolvement? 🙂
“What happened in the the mid-’80s to … er … stop your pop culture evolvement? 🙂”
I got married in 1988. I wasn’t spending time in clubs anymore.
My pop culture evolvement made a brief resurgence around 2010 when my daughter became a teenager. She’d listen to contemporary music in the car when we went places. I liked some of it.
When she went to college, it pretty much died.
My daughter still makes recommendations about movies, streaming shows and books. She got me started on “Beef,” “Stranger Things,” “Game of Thrones” & “Severance.”
She turned me on to the “feminist mythology” genre. I liked most of it but “Circe” by Madeline Miller is my favorite. I thought of LO #4 when I read it.
LE,
“I got married in 1988. ”
I figured it was marriage and/or kids. 🙂
Jmmo,
” I’ve become aware that at least some of anger is directed at myself. In terms of what I’m doing about it – well, I’m in therapy; the primary focus being “what the hell is wrong that allows this to keep happening to you?!””
Have you had LEs throughout your life? I have.
The phase after the anger phase is the “What was I thinking?” phase. The good news is that you start to understand what triggers you and why you’re triggered.
Tbh, when I look back at my Le, I can’t believe I ever took my LO so seriously. The whole thing was so empty. I don’t even have any tacky jewelry to show for it. You know … jewelry I could at least pawn. 🙂
Hi Marcia.
I completely agree. The anger is much easier than sadness. As I said, the anger towards her is lessening, and is getting to the point where as long as she stays out of my way, I’m beginning to get a little less aggressive in my thoughts. The anger towards myself is also being tempered by my therapy and the need to work compassionately with myself to make progress.
Yes, I’ve definitely had several LEs throughout my life. I think probably at least 5 including this one. Ever since I found out about limerence, I’ve been analysing my previous relationships and “crushes” trying to work out if they were love (one definitely was), genuine crushes or the big L. The ones I’ve identified were obvious.
A lot if wasted time. You’re spot on. Wasted time, stress and heartache. I have a watch from a previous LO (I realise now it was mutual), and a bottle of red wine from this LO given to me for my birthday – the week before it blew up! I am considering giving it away. I don’t think I want it.
To Jmmo from Marcia
” As I said, the anger towards her is lessening, and is getting to the point where as long as she stays out of my way”
What are you angry about? I was really angry at mine because he led me on. And any reasonable person, if I told you all the crap he did and said, would agree. But … I let him led me on. So I have to take my share of responsibility.
“Yes, I’ve definitely had several LEs throughout my life. I think probably at least 5 including this one. ”
I think I’ve had maybe 7 ? If i include one in high school.
“Ever since I found out about limerence, I’ve been analysing my previous relationships and “crushes” trying to work out if they were love (one definitely was), genuine crushes or the big L. The ones I’ve identified were obvious.”
So I guess I’ll quickly define limerence. Or at least my personal definition. It’s meeting someone and having if not immediate then pretty soon after meeting them an overwhelming feelings of attraction and nervousness around them that are not proportionate to how much I know them. And then I get fixated and obsessed. And there’s always a barrier — they’re not interested enough (it’s like pulling teeth to make it on one date) or only want an FWB when I want more or aren’t available. (I’m starting to wonder if I can actually feel that level of attraction for someone who is available and interested and ready to move forward with things.) I’ve had exactly one LE that resulted in a serious relationship (after said barriers were removed) … and the limerence died almost immediately once he was fully available and interested. So you’d think I’d learn that using limerence to filter for a relationship, expecting that level of intensity (I won’t lie — I was always searching for it) was not a wise choice!
Crushes are similar but about 50% less in terms of intensity of feelings. And I get over them very quickly (so different than limerence).
I’m rambling here … But I’ve always wondered …. how do normal people date? 🙂 Really. What level of feeling do they need to ask someone out? Because I’m guessing that most people don’t even have to be crushing on someone. Maybe they just think the person is cute. Or enjoy their company. Or think they’d be a good partner ?
” I have a watch from a previous LO (I realise now it was mutual), and a bottle of red wine from this LO given to me for my birthday – the week before it blew up! I am considering giving it away. I don’t think I want it.”
I had some gifts from the LO who I got serious with. I pawned them. The most recent one … nothing. No gifts.
I’d see if you can sell the watch. And enjoy the wine! Why not?
Butting back in here …
I’d say I’ve needed at least a mild crush to ask a woman on a date. I don’t know if the non-limerent tribe would chance it for less.
I’d say crushes turn to limerence when they are frustrated by barriers, not start as limerence at the very start. Shyness and fear of rejection can be among those barriers (I mean when the people aren’t in relationships, here). It can be like people create the limerence by not doing anything. Might not be how it plays out for you (maybe this one is a bit of a male thing?). If I had advice to give back to my younger self in single days, it would have been to just go for it more and tolerate rejection if it came. I had at least two crushes in my teens and early 20s (several more depending on where we put definition boundaries) turn into LEs because of my not doing anything much.
LaR
“I’d say I’ve needed at least a mild crush to ask a woman on a date. ”
I’ve gone out with guys I wasn’t attracted to. At various times in my life. Maybe a first date. One I dated for a bit. I really liked him. Blips of attraction came later. I’ve hooked up with men I wasn’t attracted to. For various reasons.
“I don’t know if the non-limerent tribe would chance it for less.”
I have a male co-worker who told me he wasn’t initially attracted to his wife when they started dating. I doubt he’s a limerent. He moves on too quickly to the next woman (in his past).
“I’d say crushes turn to limerence when they are frustrated by barriers, not start as limerence at the very start. Shyness and fear of rejection can be among those barriers ”
Those weren’t barriers for me once I got out of high school. I pursued my LOs to some degree if they weren’t pursuing me (a few did, or they pursued to a degree).
I don’t think I ever had a crush become limerence. Crushes felt distinctly different. Crushes I went after, even in high school. I never claimed to do it smoothly but I did it.
“If I had advice to give back to my younger self in single days, it would have been to just go for it more and tolerate rejection if it came.”
My advice to my younger self … if it’s not moving forward pretty effortlessly … move on! Don’t get fixated on a non-event. Flirtation with no action means nothing.
Well, I have just had my day turned upside-down. LO contacted me and invited me to have brunch with him and his mom. I took her a flower and I was over there for more than two hours. I spent most of the time with the mom, because LO was running around the house doing things.
I enjoy the interaction with her. She is sharp as a tack despite being 88. I allowed myself for a moment to regard her as a surrogate mom, and I didn’t feel so alone.
I told LO when I left that I had a blast, and I did. He sounded surprised, and I reminded him that I always have a blast at his house. I don’t think he understands. He knows I have a crush on him, but he doesn’t understand limerence or what goes on in my head when he’s in the same room.
He also surprised me–he actually DID get me something from France, some fancy macarons from Fauchon in Paris.
I realize I didn’t help myself today. My resolve weakens.
He also told me that he bought a house on the opposite side of the country and will be moving in September. So that’s that. He said he wouldn’t forget me when he moves, but I really don’t care. I won’t see him after he moves, and I really don’t want to.
I also got more information on the painting I have been waiting for for two years. Apparently it’s available, and I could pick it up myself, but there is a dispute over the price. LO says they’re charging too much and is going to get them to either lower the price or give it to him for free. I don’t know the details. He said, “I’ll handle it,” which I think means that I will end up paying nothing.
He surprised me by being kinder than I expected, but that is not necessarily a good thing.
It has been a while since I posted anything and a lot has happened since I did, but I finally feel like I might be on the right track.
It’s currently been 57 hours non contact. We had an argument and neither of us have reached out to the other. For me the only reason I hadn’t is because I saw it as possibly my only chance to go NC in the first place. I’m not sure his reasons and there is no way that I could know, so there’s not much point in speculating.
I feel awful, because I would never want to leave a relationship with someone I care about in this way, but I’m worried that in me trying to be amicable about it we end up back at square one. Regardless of how real any of these feelings are I do still genuinely care about LO.
I originally felt okay about it, but the longer it goes on, the more I wish he would say something. I feel consumed by the silence. I feel conflicted between knowing it’s mostly likely for the best and not wanting it to be.
Currently if he was to reach out, I would probably respond, but seeing that it’s already been so long I don’t think it’s very likely.
I’m going to start seeing a therapist this week. Hopefully this will help me to make a clear decision in regards to the future of my relationship with my SO. At the moment I don’t plan on mentioning the LE as it’s not my main focus.
Best of luck with managing the next few days and weeks NC, and with the therapist. We’re here.
Hi Cat,
Nice to hear from you on here again.
In your message you seem a bit torn between thinking that NC is the right thing for you, and not quite being able to persuade yourself yet to go there (especially if LO initiates contact). That’s a natural feeling for the point you’re at, not one you’d be at all alone in.
So – here are some open questions to you (not meant to be loaded, and they don’t need an answer if you’d rather not). Do you think your chances of working through the other issues (with the therapist etc.) would be better if you are NC with LO, or if he is still there in some form, but with LC (working at gradually lowering it more or more)? Which would you feel would be best *for you* in the medium term – cold turkey withdrawal, tapering off – or alternatively leaving it as it is?
Blips, bumps and backslides often happen. But I think it might help you if you pick a strategy and commit as best you can. Uncertainty (in our own heads, as well as through what LO does) is quite simply the rocket fuel that keeps limerence going.
I wish you well with whatever comes next😊. We’re here, and loads of us have gone through it.
Hi @Cat
Just a quick note to say I felt the same – I’ve ghosted LO and normally, I am not that kind of person.
I spoke with my therapist about this conflict. I am doing something I would never do…to a person I care about, supremely. What gives?
She told me to see it differently. Most people don’t dysregulate me. I would never do this to a friend – to a dear one. But, LO was toxic. Not as a person…but toxic to me. Therefore, serious measures needed to be taken.
I knew, instinctively, that if I went back to say a “mature goodbye” or to have a conversation around my needs, even to say “I have something to take care of, I won’t be around for a time….” it would be, baseline, going back!!!!
So, as you consider whether it’s “ok” to just go, remember, going means not going back. For me, any kind of going back, even to tie up loose ends, meant “going back”. A setback, major, at least. Because…it’s more like an addiction. Not a regular relationship. Different rules might apply…
We do what we have to do. There is time. Once you are re-regulated and detached, you can try to clean up loose ends, if you even want to. For now, in the beginning, maybe try not being so hard on yourself. It’s like an addiction. You would probably not encourage a drug addict to just “have a little” to make themselves feel better.
it might take having a colder attitude, to start, just so you can get some clarity.
xx
Hello friends. A recent set back for me. I haven’t spoken to LO for about 2 weeks apart from a message just over a week ago. Things wer left pretty positive and I was happy with the idea that we won’t rush to speak again but that I didn’t have the stress and pressure of NC. I felt good. However, I bumped in to a former colleague on the weekend who was talking to me about LO and a female colleague (the friend that has been mentioned previously- who always seems to be jealous and posessive). He told me that there is clearly something going on although he doesn’t know what. He mentioned their behaviour and that they’re not helping themselves by being so close and working the same patterns etc. Although this is something I have dreaded hearing and have in fact cautioned LO about in the past when he mentioned some things, I have since had such an emotional knock that I’m not sure what to do or how to overcome it. I felt like I had been punched in the chest. I was in bed a lot of yesterday and I just feel exhausted whilst trying to be normal too. SO asked why I was affected by it and I said it just made me sad as I know them. LO still has a partner and kids. The female colleague has recently split from her SO. I’m trying to unpack it all. Is it just extreme jealousy on my part? He chose someone else- but I wouldn’t want to be in that position (logically) anyway. I don’t know if anything has actually happened but people noticing means it’s not just in my head.
I’ve never got far enough to NC to really see the benefit. I’m honestly not sure how to feel better about this but I’m hoping time will help. I never really need to see LO again as we don’t work together but I’ve always given in and reached out. It’s so complex. My own world doesn’t blow up with this information yet I feel devastated.
Dear Whoomp
I’m sorry to read this. I know how you feel. Yes, I think some of it is jealousy, but some of it is a further log on the fire of the grief that you have of losing LE/LO, etc. And it’s complicated by the fact that you wouldn’t want to be there, isn’t it? It creates a further conflict: I’m jealous although…
I think that, my honest opinion, is that you need to go fully NC. It’s hard, but would it be any harder to have another time like you’re having now? If you no longer work together you can cut the ties and move on. I think you owe it to yourself to start the recovery process by shutting off any association with LO.
Hope you don’t mind my honesty. It comes from a place of concern and best wishes for you.
Keep us posted.
Jmmo x
Whoomp,
We spoke before and I was in your shoes in the similar situation, so I felt I could add a penny of my thoughts here:
1. The logical mind says two things: a. I don’t want to be in the position of other woman, to be gossiped and to be affected with my work. b. With SO, I want this LE to be over but without going NC, it can happen somehow without experiencing NC pains.
2. The LE mind (might not be fully clear to you): a. Very jealous of the other women (DNA coded drive, natural). b. I am losing LO’s “favor” (if it existed there previously), it’s the biggest loss in an active limerent’s head/heart/soul.
It’s beginning of DoH — death of hope. You’re facing an “astronomical” loss (already took place), despite your logical mind is confused about or unwilling to face/accept it.
I was in your shoes at the beginning of 2022, which then escalated my LE pain for another 1.5 years. Now, in hindsight I could see it so clearly (at the time, I didn’t know anything about limerence and never had jealousy of any other women previously thus couldn’t tell what was happening to me.)
I agree with JMMO, going to NC is the only solution to kill LE if you can manage it, after you fully acknowledge and accept what’s happening now.
Be well and good luck to remove LE (obsession, not genuine LOVE), it’s really, really BAD/HARMFUL for anyone whether one could get LO’s reciprocation or not.
Thank you- I think your thoughts are spot on and NC is right. I’ve known for such a long time just haven’t been able to stick it because i have been in denial thinking i cant cope with not having LO in my life. He has fallen from grace somewhat now.
I think my reaction to this setback speaks volumes.
Yesterday I struggled with the fact that the two of them becoming a couple could be a reality. The pain…the grief. The other thing I struggled with was getting embroiled in gossip and speculation and how to address it. I should have shut it down but didn’t. Today I was in two minds whether to tell LO about the gossip or tell the person who gossiped that I don’t want to have anything to do with it and that speculation is harmful. I chose the latter. I suppose I didn’t need to say anything and should have just walked away but I felt a weight had been lifted. It came down to integrity and not wanting my name to be associated with any rumours that could end up being very hurtful. I must step back now. Look out for future ramblings as I battle the upcoming withdrawals.
Dear Whoomp
What you are saying is very familiar. Been there, went NC, backslid and regretted it within 24 hours. NC is difficult, and I still get moments if doubt 2 weeks later. But I feel happier (most of the time) and more in control.
I think choosing the latter option is the one I hope I’d have gone for. That way, NC with LC and telling other people you want nominate in their gossip – they don’t need to know why.
NC isn’t easy, but it is the only way to start repairing yourself. We are all here to support you.
Best wishes
Jmmo x
Whoomp,
I would not say anything to LO at this point or later any time.
I understand why you told the gossiping person about your preference; but myself would not say anything, just listen and walk away — treating LO’s business as having nothing to do with you, whatsoever.
LO has moved on, regardless what the situation with you was previously. I see the only wise choice now is NC, or you’ll get hurt more and more.
Good luck in going and enduring NC — withdrawing the “drug” addiction WILL hurt, no matter how you would go through it. Please prepare for it.
The last 6 months have been really hard. LO and I got into an argument a few days after the election in November He was being a little too condescending about my fears with the new administration and dismissing my legitimate concerns as a woman of color. I set that aside to wish him well a few days later when he started a new job and that was the last time I contacted him.
My mom died a few days before Christmas and it was obviously a horrible time for me. We did in home hospice and I don’t think I slept more than a few hours that whole week. I cared for her round the clock administering medication every 2 hours to keep her comfortable. I’ve done hospice many times over the course of my career but it’s so much harder to do when it’s your own mother. I was so lucky to have family and friends to love and support me during and after, but LO wasn’t one of them. Not once did he reach out to me and I think it broke something in me after having offered him so much emotional support over the years for various things. It’s so messed up that limerence still rears its ugly head while you’re grieving and at your lowest.
A couple of months ago my boss was going to speak to him on the phone about something and I told her to tell him I said hi in passing. He had her transfer the call to my office after she told him I said hi. He told me he just wanted to apologize for never contacting me when my mom died but it was crazy for him at that time and I could always call him if I needed to talk. I was trying not to cry (because I always cry when anyone talks about my mom’s passing) and I just said thanks and we ended the call. I wish I had told him to shove his apology where the sun don’t shine.
I have not called him. The friendship that I thought LO and I had does not exist. Because a friend would take the time and initiative to reach out to you when you’ve lost one of the most important people in the world to you. I can’t forgive him for not doing even the bare minimum. The limerence persists despite the fact he has shown me over and over again that he has no regard for my feelings or wellbeing. And I hate myself for that. I haven’t initiated contact with him in 6 months. I dread the day he tries to initiate contact again, because he always does when I try to go NC. I just can’t do this anymore.
Big hugs. This just sucks and you deserve better. I hope you find some way through and some peace.
@monochrome
Thank you for the kindness.
Hi @LostGirl
I don’t think we’ve interacted here yet, but your update/story resonated with me.
First, I will say I am so very sorry for all you have been through. Losing a parent, and being there to see them go is incredibly difficult. Not to mention now, politically, culturally. It’s an incredibly challenging time, to put it mildly. Yes.
I cannot imagine the responsibility you felt in your Mom’s care. I am sure that you did the best you could, and certainly, that would be exhausting, physically and mentally…not just in that moment, but for many months to come. Maybe for a few years, I’ve heard that can happen.
I lost my Dad this summer, and was also there by his side. Like you, I was also reeling from limerence at that time. I will admit, it was very hard to accept…I’m thinking of LO (who is not even remotely emotionally there for me!) during a time when so many others are — and during a time when my own *parent* is leaving this world….I felt a level of confusion and guilt…and just pure frustration with myself….and preoccupation with LO (ugh)…trying to hold all of those things at once.
You are doing the right thing. It takes time. I don’t mean that it’s right because you “should” be doing something else — I don’t mean you should be handling this any other way. Your only job is to get yourself to a clearer place, without LO. And that’s what you’re doing, even though it’s a slog.
Personally, I feel the kind of…empty space *after* the initial withdrawal, the vacuum of where LO used to be (or where other things the Limerent may be putting aside might be…) is the most difficult time. It’s a transitional time – those are never easy to navigate…they require energy, but also the ability to let go. It’s not easy at all…those forces are totally opposite one another…crossing currents.
You are right in what you are doing, staying away from LO. For your own benefit – nothing to do with manipulation. Just for you. No, someone who apologizes later for not being there, not even a word— time to revoke their access.
Yes, friends and loved ones show up. That is what I, too, have realized and know. (Ok…They may not show up dressed as charming, attractive 30 year old dude at the gym…sigh….haha) but…they do show up for me when I have trouble. And vice versa. I show up.
My LO also was a flake in these matters – cases of way too little way too late – and I was (now crawling out) in a place in life where I took those crumbs. Eagerly. I was crazy for him.
I think I can relate to you. I hope I can, and that you feel less alone today. Try not to be so hard on yourself. This is difficult. What would you say to any one of us here — or to a good friend — right now. Say that to yourself, if you can.
I, and a few others are in pretty stark NC right now (personally, I got tired of LO’s shenanigans and totally blocked him, ghosted him.) And you do not owe anyone any apology or explanation. Period.
If you ever need someone to cheer you on, or just to vent, we are all here to help…
With Care,
csc
@csc
I’m so sorry about your dad. The grief comes in waves and out of nowhere at times. Little things bring it back just as strong as the day you lost them.
I lost my dad a couple years before my mom so I’m truly alone now. That’s not really true but something about not having the two people who raised you and would always love you no matter what makes you feel that way.
You are so right that there is so much guilt. While going through this loss I was still thinking about LO and I kept asking myself what was wrong with me. No matter the support I got from others he was who I most wanted to hear from.
Thank you for sharing with me and understanding what I’ve been going through. It does help. I know in general LOs are not responsible for how we feel but I think some suspect and take advantage of those feelings. Emotional vampires who can’t reciprocate. We deserve better in those situations. I wish you luck with your NC.
@Lost Girl
I have no siblings so in a sense I do understand how losing both parents would be a true shift in life. I still have my Mom but I think about that a lot.
When we are in difficult situations, our minds will find all manner of ways to relieve some of that stress…to distract us. Our brains use a lot of energy and they’re always trying to conserve energy. It’s just what they do.
An LE/LO can be a fantastic distraction. A fantasy can be a great relief and escape.
In some ways it is not in our power esp when we are under a huge amount of sustained stress. Try not to be hard on yourself or feel guilty. Many others have had limerence during their hardest times…it’s something that happens, not something you were doing “on purpose”.
Our brains are very resourceful and creative when they are stressed. It’s hard though, I know. In hindsight in my own situation I can easily see why my LE was so intense. I have been through a lot.
I’m glad you saw everyone’s replies. ❤️
Hello, we haven’t met, but I can certainly empathize with you in terms of your suffering. The loss of your mother is HUGE and is something you will likely never recover from. My mom has been gone 25 years and I still miss her every day.
The condescension over the election results is troubling. I have several people in my life, including my own sister, who has laughed at my concerns regarding the new administration. LO actually thinks the new leaders are going to “clean house,” whatever that means.
It’s too soon to tell if our fears are justified, but it’s not looking good. I find I have to avoid the news because I get too anxious.
I really identified with one statement you made: “The friendship that I thought LO and I had does not exist.”
I should actually write that down and post it on the refrigerator. So eloquent.
I also share your sense of self-loathing. Meditation and deep breathing are the only things that seem to help.
Sending you good thoughts and love, for whatever they are worth.
@ Norma Desmond
The good thoughts and love are worth a lot.
LO and I had very different political ideologies and we’ve had civil discussions in the past about it. He would always say despite our different ideas we were both good people. This last election was different, the climate was darker and it spiked my anxiety to a 10. I can’t stop myself from consuming news so that anxiety is still there.
LO is more than a decade older than I am so I think the condescension has always been there in some ways but I would give him a pass about it. I sometimes thought he still saw me as the naive timid 20 something he first met who was just starting her career.
I think we can delude ourselves into thinking we mean more to LO than we actually do. I would do well to remind myself of that.
My LO is six years younger than I am, and he is also condescending.
My LO believes the administration is acting in good faith, and I find that disturbingly naive.
I actually wrote down your statement and put in on the fridge so I can see it every day.
I hope we can both find peace of mind.
“I really identified with one statement you made: “The friendship that I thought LO and I had does not exist.””
Before I came in here to read the latest post I was listening to this song. And it seems to coincide with the above quoted statement.
“So let’s leave it alone
Cause we can’t see eye to eye
There ain’t no good guy
There ain’t no bad guy
There’s only you and me
And we just disagree.”
We Just Disagree — Dave Mason
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERd0VjJYgpE
Adam listening to classic rock. Love it..
C’mon man, put on some Van Hagar already..
Best of both Worlds..
https://youtu.be/TldVj-GHWiw?si=fELtf8395YSGckEr
Talk about a limerence song, lol.. This one always gets cranked up.. 🤣
Cat, Whoomp, Vicarious and especially Lost Girl,
I‘m steeped in work and stress and ca not really answer each one, but read your posts and just want to hug you. I‘m sorry for your difficult times and struggles with limerence. It won’t help much, but I feel for you!
I’d echo both parts of this, Mila. I haven’t got time to write responses today with enough sensitivity that all those posts deserve, but when I read each of them, my heart went out to you all. I am sure others will step in with good ideas and suggestions. For now, just know we’re here ;listening, we get it, and we don’t mind if people want to vent.
Thanks @Mila. I am actually doing a bit better today, so there is at least that. One day at a time, I suppose!
Hi all,
Nice to see updates from some LwL folks we haven’t seen in awhile. Lost girl and I started posting here the same time!
Not so nice is how the heartache and pain of lingering limerence brings us here, to this safe space. I genuinely share my sympathy and well wishes to all of you.
@Mila, I hope your stresses have reduced as the week has gone on and the sun is shining where you are.
I have needed to focus on myself and getting out of the complete chaotic mindmush and dysregulated nervous system I have been had for far too long.
I do now feel a shift in my LE, because I have faced and think my Lim brain is accepting Death of Hope. (@LaR, yes DoH is here , at last ! )
I am doing better also like Vicarious these last days. It started soon after I got lots of supportive replies to my last post. So thank you, it was a turning point I think amongst other factors, including NC.
I don’t want to be too upbeat in case it breaks the spell !
Best wishes,
Hi Imho!
Wow, sounds like good news?
Congratulations! Even if there will be a slideback, (if there would be news of an impending visit, for example. Are there? Or did you really go full NC?), you experienced a DoH-like state and can find your way back to it.
Stress in full overload here. XLO in town, preparations for impending business trip. I have no time at all for him. I feel a bit mean to ignore his expectant eyes – but then, he could also ask if there is time for a coffee (which there isn’t), but he‘s passive as always. Also, I got one example more of how he doesn’t get what’s important for me, cannot name it here.
Still, I feel mean because he‘s got his vulnerable face on and I’m being – not really mean or distant, I‘m being ok, but not extremely warm or caring. I know that I don’t have to, but people-pleaser that I am, I feel mean not to give him what he expects.
But what does he expect? We‘ll spend so much time together on that trip, does he really expect me to make time for him now? I guess it’s all in my head anyway.
On first sight I had a little pang of recognition- the old neuronal pathways are there, I still feel a little tug on old limerent heartstrings, but my inner guardians shut the door hastily.
And when we talk I remember all I learned- that he‘s not the guy who I was limerent for, that there’s no hidden depth behind the small talk, or if there is, he cannot open it for me, so what’s the use.
I think there is little danger to fall into old habits, and unfortunately also the possibility that this friendship will stay in shallow and colder waters now. We’ll see on the trip, I guess. I see him with colder eyes now most of the time, and I’m not sure if I can find a good way in the middle between too warm and too cold.
Imho, but the sun is shining here! Hope in your corner of the world too.
Mila, lovely to connect again.
I’m at an event, so will respond tomorrow morning. Let it be another sunny one x
Imho,
Great to hear from you and to hear that you seem to be doing OK and sound upbeat. Yes, more of this 🌞 please!
You can see how DoH is playing out for a few people here from their updates. It was hard for me (still is, but think I feel slowly steadier and on the mend now) but I went through it very quickly and not entirely expectedly, so it was a big jolt.
I know you didn’t ask for advice but in case, here are a few DoH related points in case you find them useful (and yes, I do have both the time and want to type them out!). As much as possible insulate yourself from it with a combo of nicer distractions and being kind to yourself (let yourself sleep more without guilt if you can/need to, eat as well as you can, exercise etc etc). And above all have patience with yourself and don’t fight how you feel, or it prolongs it. It is also important not to let hope have cracks of light to sneak back in through, until you feel stronger. Our situations are different but I had to put almost all cordial relations on pause (opt out of even several work bits we were due to do together) until I was stronger. I am now assessing what’s appropriate contact-wise and seeing how much having her in my orbit can be OK, even sometimes mildly pleasant. There are levels and dynamics of contact that would still be too much, and I’m still figuring it out.
One way I knew I was mending was when I started to have more time and battery for other friends again – actively wanting to see people.
Anyway sorry for the diversion there into an update on me and into suggestions. Mainly I just wanted to say that your update sounded encouraging 🤞
@LaR,
Thank you for your words of encouragement and taking the time to give some tips. Appreciated!
I am indeed starting to enjoy some things that I used to do and just stopped doing or else I continued to do but without any joy.
I am getting those feelings and happy rush you get from exercising which has been missing for so long.
I made a pact of a few positive things that I must do every day in May which I guess are all in the category of self-care. Exactly as you advised. And it’s working. I got myself a smart fitness watch that tells me lots of data. So I am switching my obsession on checking the app often instead of obsessing about LO and his whereabouts etc !
It’s a kind of transference.
I think I am a bit OCD.
Importantly I am doing all this for me and not to impress LO ( he is sporty)
I really hope it continues or else I need to find another healthy obsession, if the novelty of this one wanes.
Glad you are recharging your battery ( my watch has a body battery rating by the way! ) so you can see friends again. You are completely right that is an excellent indicator.
Recently, I went out with some friends and got dressed up. I initially declined the invite but last minute I thought to myself “come on Imho, just go and if you don’t like it you can leave early ”
I didnt get the high I would from seeing or dreaming of LO, but it was fun and I felt good about myself. And my friends were genuinely so happy to see me.
Gotta just do stuff !
glad your plan of action is coming together. I know your situation is a tough one to navigate.
You continue to be very generous on LwL. Thanks
Hi Imho,
That’s really great to hear all this – your self care sounds good! I like that you’re getting a kick out of exercising and also that you pushed through and went out with friends. Sometimes you just have to “fake it til you make it” with stuff like that I think. I’ve recently found myself actively reaching out to friends again after a couple of months of basically hiding as much as I could while I recharged. Still not fully there (still need to sleep a lot more than usual) but improving.
I have to shy away from health data like your watch gives as I would worry about getting obsessed! (or maybe that is just my narrative).
Yes it is still hard to navigate my situation but she seems incredibly sensitive to it and like she wants to come through as friends too. It is in both our professional interests that we do, and bottom line we do actually quite like each other. I never wanted limerence to beat that. I think we’re on a path to that now and without the limerence beast re-stirring.
As for generosity on LwL, thank you. The posters I am generous to have been generous back, especially at times I have really needed it. Words of people here have saved me from more than one bad decision
I also want to reply to a point or two in your post to Mila, but I’ll get back to that later.
Have a great Saturday – hopefully in the sun 😊
LaR,
Your LO sounds like a good person, which is wonderful, compared to some archetypes (the ‘bad LOs’ ) but also I feel more tricky for us limerents to make the break from. However, you are doing a good job navigating those white waters !
And feel free to comment on my post to Mila.
Right now I must get active before my watch calls me out for being lazy!
Lost Girl
My maternal grandfather died when I was about 5, so I really never knew him. My mother had to take care of grandmother because she couldn’t take care of herself. If memory serves my grandmother lived another 2-3 years after grandfather died, and my mother and my aunt (her sister) took care of her at home until she passed in her sleep one night. I saw my mother care for her tirelessly while looking after my sister and I. Grandmother was mentally comatose and rarely spoke or interacted with anyone. My sister and I were too young to know what was going on, though I think my sister was more astute about it than I was.
Like MJ, here on LwL, it is quite difficult to care for an aging parent. And any child that does so is going above and beyond. It can be a thankless job depending on the state of mind of the parent. I am very sorry for your loss. I am not looking forward to the future being almost 48 now. My parents are in good health but you never know what the future will hold. I know with the cynical state of this country is this may not mean much; but I shall pray on your behalf. Hopefully time will help heal.
Short story; I couldn’t get our lawn mower to start this weekend, so my wife suggested I ask my sister to borrow hers. I said I ain’t talked to my sister in years, and I am going to call her out of the blue to borrow her mower? My wife said; phones work both ways. LO hasn’t called me in three years (probably for the good) since she left the job. Yes phones work two ways. Thankfully I ended up calling our oldest boy to borrow his mower and got the lawed mowed after all. 🙂
@Adam
Thank you for the prayers. They are always welcomed.
I’m younger than you but I hope you get to continue having both your parents around and in good health for a long time. Mine are both gone now and I miss them every day. I was lucky to have both the skills and flexibility in my job to take care of both of them til the end. I am very thankful for that.
On my own front, yesterday was Mother’s Day. Not a “good day” in our house as Momma lost her mother in February of 2007 at 56 (if I remember right). Our youngest son came with me to Walmart yesterday and I asked him if we should get her some flowers. My (obviously) much more astute son said no Dad that would just make it worse. I tried to be strong for my wife. Show no weakness. I needed to be there for her for this hard time for her in her remembering her mother. But too many vodkas and I waited to be alone outside and couldn’t keep it in. My mother in law was the most amazing woman I have known. But my wife “caught” me. I tried to play it off. Momma said there is nothing wrong with my mourning. I put a post on FB in her memory. Which I rarely use anymore these days. My wife’s grandmother, Betty, when I first met her a year or so after my wife and I ran away and got married, told me when I called her Betty, “I’m grandma.” I said “But Betty you’re not my grandma.” To which she took quite a bit of offense and insisted I call her grandma. I did from that moment on. Betty was Momma’s mother’s mother. Both awesome women. This is the song that always reminds me of the two of them.
She Gave Her Angels — Prince
https://youtu.be/2esy8BaXaOc?si=WocI8R1xAOra1EZ2
A Cloud of Drench Bearing Down
Emily Pittinos
An odor in the breeze—spruce; palosanto; silver dust
of a hard freeze. This isn’t love-love, I say back. But
what do I know—except
I’ve gotten close enough to too far
enough times to know
it is possible to pull back, and for that thrill
to be enough. But what damage that moment does, the having of it
—the halving of it—again and again in the mind,
I cannot say. How leaves,
no matter how long they soak in the river,
will never turn truly black—though how could I be sure of this, either,
without staying the weeks to watch.
As the day drains
out the window, I become more and more
the focus of my own gaze. Light leaches from every
silvered feather; every bone-bright twig
now grey as silt—the great equity
of darkness coming down.
How you can find that what you believed was singular, and needed
to be, is not—
This, too, a trick of light or distance—
the burst cattail no cattail at all, but a stalk
of lush grass weighted with snow.
This, too—how could you.
******
During LE —
“a trick of light or distance—
the burst cattail no cattail at all, but a stalk
of lush grass weighted with snow. ”
After LE —
“Light leaches from every
silvered feather; every bone-bright twig
now grey as silt—the great equity
of darkness coming down. “
The Dawn will break
A clear sky will follow
🐦🔥
oops @Lost Girl
You might like to have a listen to this… super cheesy, yes, but …for me, very effective. This one was on permanent repeat for me, and I have a feeling it might speak to you, too. Enjoy :))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENkXoJmU2Hg&list=PL2NGNJAaDsJ8qHgdrd-StmJFT917cQbCJ
csc
I want to reflect on a couple of things that happened yesterday. LO overwhelmed me with news of his impending move 3,000 miles away. He had stated he was going to move, eventually, but I had no idea it would happen so soon.
This will be a very good thing for me in the long run, but it doesn’t make the adjustment easier. The thing I noticed most about him is how giddy he was. I have known him for several years, two years in closer contact, and I have not really seen this side of him.
I can understand why he is happy to move, but it annoys me that my friendship with him means nothing. I was with him for about two hours yesterday, and he was gushing about the new house, showing me pictures and talking about his plans for renovating/redecorating.
He IS a designer, after all, but I started getting bored. I guess being bored by LO is a good thing. He was explaining why he needs to tear out the swimming pool and build another one closer to the house. I asked him why, if he’s not planning on swimming. He explained that a swimming pool can be just for looks.
When he said that, I realized that I truly do not understand the mentality of a designer. He overwhelmed me with details about the new house.
He didn’t once ask me how I was.
@Norma
How much longer can you deal with these feelings? How much longer SHOULD you deal with them?? With putting yourself in the path of someone who makes you this upset, makes you feel taken completely for granted?
Have you considered cutting this off *before* he leaves? His leaving is one thing, but you do have the power, on your own, to just cut this off before then, if you can’t stand it. There is no law that says you must wait.
You have said he owes you nothing. Well, you owe nothing to him, either. Not a thing. Not politeness, caring, nothing. You owe yourself things, not him. Not at this point.
To CSC:
I still need my painting back, but other than that, I really don’t feel like I want to see him.
I can’t stand listening to him enthuse about how great it will all be when he moves 3000 miles away. He is completely tone-deaf.
Thank you so much for your response, I really am having difficulty processing my feelings. I am a bit overwhelmed. You have been very good to me, and I appreciate it more than I can put into words.
hi @Norma
I don’t blame you. I had a friend (not an LO!) who bought a new home and she would go on and on. It was out in the country, on a mountain, with a pool.
The pool needed refinishing, the house needed work…and here I am, in a big city, sweating it out in my apartment. I never felt lack in my life before, but sitting with her, going over all the home stuff…it was hard. She became so focused on her home it was like our friendship was secondary.
I am very sensitive, and would never have gone on like that. Especially if I wanted to keep my friend. I totally understand how you must have felt, on multiple levels. (My emotional sensitivity is why I often take a very protective stance in stuff like this…:)
And, this situation was just my friend! If it had been an LO…my goodness. I probably would have sat and wept right there in front of them.
You’re a good person. And you have every right to turn away, now, or, as an experiment, to say “Ok, can we talk about something other than the house? I have XYZ going on and would like your advice”…
You can pick – you don’t have to sit there while he goes on and on. You might be doing him a favor and teaching him some manners!
xo
To CSC:
I can understand what you’re saying. I live a very modest existence in a small home. I am not even familiar with a lot of the fancy renovations he’s talking about.
I feel like a toothless hillbilly when he gets like this. He really is oblivious.
Norma! Tell him that you are happy that he‘s looking forward to his moving and new house but that he definitely has to bring you that painting back before the move!
@ND,
He seems like someone you love to dislike. Your LE story is unique to me being that he seemingly frustrates you so much. Then I feel like you voluntarily go back for more, expecting a different result, when all he does is let you down again..
My LE was/is so different. Intense on the crush, yet soul crushing in return. And it was all anticlimactic, since I never really knew her. So it was all in my head. So sad and pathetic all at the same time. LO could have spit in my face and I still would’ve probably adored her.
Again, I’ll say it’s good you at least know what you’re getting with this person and what they are about. Why you stay limerent for him, I have no clue. Could be because he acts so emotionally unavailable. I’m sure that has to be a challenge to deal with.
Perhaps him eventually moving will be a positive thing.
This is to MJ:
Who knows why we stay limerent for people? LO started out being quite nice, and I got a wonderful feeling of acceptance from him.
Maybe I have been chasing that same feeling, in vain, for the last two years?
Maybe he’s filling a void with the loss of your daughters’ affection.
@SL
You might be on to something there. I totally forgot about that. 🤔
@Norma
you are not a toothless hillbilly.
people who actually have deep wealth, have their security, do not flaunt what they have. they are secure. they are often gracious. they are patient, observant, calm. non-performative. those things mark a truly powerful individual. they have no need to show off. they’re secure.
also….where i am from…truly secure individuals usually don’t willingly share information about all they have, or even what their plans are. they know enough to keep it private.
This is to Mila:
Regarding the painting: Yesterday, I asked him if I could get my painting back before he moves. He said, what a silly question! It’s four months!
And I thought, well, you have had 26 months already. But I said nothing.
He explained that they are charging more for the repair than is reasonable. I think, in light of all the stuff I’ve done for him, he doesn’t want to charge me anything. Which is fine. I feel I deserve it at this point. However, he needs to argue/haggle with them himself. If I found out where the place is and drove up there myself, they’d charge me the full price.
If I went up there myself, it would be a slap in the face to him. So I will wait. I think I know the name of the place he took it. As a last resort, I will get it myself after he leaves. But I hope it doesn’t come to that.
He said, “I’ll handle it!” in a very sharp tone of voice. I guess we’ll see.
„And I thought, well, you have had 26 months already. But I said nothing.“
Should have said it!;)
Ok, if he will handle it so you wont pay too much, I’ll forgive him..
To Mila:
At this point, I am expecting to pay zero. LO had led me to believe in 2023 that it would be about $100. I didn’t have the crush on him then. I was fine with $100.
Then I developed LE and somehow two years elapsed. He had told me the painting was ready and it was just a matter of picking it up. But he didn’t give me the complete story. He told me the owners were out of state, which is true. What he DIDN’T tell me is that the store is open, being run by employees. He needs to have a discussion with the owners in order to resolve the price issue. If he just went over there, they would charge whatever the “unacceptable” price is. So I was under the wrong impression because I didn’t have all the facts.
To CSC:
I forgot to respond to you. In a way, I don’t blame him for being so enthused because it’s all new. He had his offer accepted on Thursday, and here it was just three days later. So of course it’s top-of-mind.
On the other hand, it was unfortunate that it was Mother’s Day, when I feel especially vulnerable. Of course he didn’t plan it, but it’s not a good idea to give someone shocking news when the person is already feeling very shaky.
I almost felt ambushed, although I know that is silly. LO and his mom were trying to do something nice for me on Mother’s Day, and it was just an unfortunate coincidence that he was bubbling over with news that affected me deeply.
@norma
well, whatever the situation, your energies don’t match.
personally, even if my offer had been accepted and i had a new house, if a friend was with me, i would stop after a point, and ask after them. it’s just a matter of manners.
his behavior, wrong or right, seems misaligned with your true needs, norma…?
To CSC:
LO has told me that he has a lot of empathy for others, but I don’t see it. He tends to monopolize conversations.
One time, I took him a small gift, which was still in the bag while he was talking. He was droning on and on about his rich, fancy clients.
Finally, I said, “I am starting to re-think this gift. I am SO Dollar Store!”
He looked mortified.
He ended up loving the gift, but I was having second thoughts.
What I said ended up being perfect, and it served him right.
To csc and LaR (and anyone else who might be interested!)
I thought I’d report back on my first day back to work. No sight nor sound of LO anywhere, thankfully. My manager repeated her promise to support me should LO try anything non-work related, which helped with my ease. My manager does not know the whole story, but worked out that LO was causing me some distress.
So, a successful first day. I smiled to myself on my drive in, as I knew that the phone couldn’t ring and it be her – because she’s blocked! Each day is going to be its own challenge for a while, and when – as I inevitably will – come across her, then I will have to deal with it there and then. My best plan atm is to blank her.
Jmmo,
That’s reallg great news. Stick to your guns and try not to let the moment you have to blank her worry you too much before or set you back at the time.
You sound like you are making progress now.
It’s never going to be the blanking tactic for me for now, for several reasons. But I do find each day I have when I’m ‘level’ in her company when needed at work (basically – no strong feelings either way, just peaceful co-existence) becomes quite self-fulfilling. That is, I can start to say to myself “it was fine yesterday and didn’t mess with my chi then, so it won’t today either”. The opposite of course has the opposite effect, and really did for a time. It seems for me to be a bit of a case of “I think therefore I am [ok or not].
I’m hoping for you that even though our circumstances with the LOs are so different, every day you have where you feel you manage work OK should start to have a similar self fulfilling effect.
It’s only a fairly recent change that I can have the better days. Each day with interaction was a terrible struggle for a while as I battled with (often unwarranted) negative feelings and not wanting her around me, due to the ‘deprogramming’ work I had to do (not the official DrL course, but my own version with the help of several LwLers). I seem to have snapped out of it and am into a double figure number of OK days in a row now, which feels such a relief. Took almost 3 months after vDoH moment to get there.
Hi @jmmo !
I figured you had a very busy day, and I had a feeling you would want to kind of feel what it felt like to just go in, and do your thing, without telling us about it. I do feel that moment is so important…after a bit of NC…kind of like a toddler taking their first steps. That’s how I felt when I decided to try my first “normal” morning.
I am really glad to hear all the steps you’ve taken, and your very mindful approach (using the excellent morning techniques @LaR recommended!) have helped to center you.
Yes, that feeling of relief that you can have your drive to work, without being worried that you will get a dysregulating text or voice note (even if you didn’t answer it!) is one to hang onto. That was why I chose to block. I simply could not run the risk of a text surprise knocking me down a peg…after it took so long to reach my decision to even try stopping my limerence…
I was indeed wondering how today was going for you. I’m really, really happy to hear you didn’t have to fend off any craziness / banshee screaming etc. haha
You are doing such a good job with yourself. I am sure in coming days we will swap notes since we are both on the plateau now. I did see your thought about preventing limerence in future, and I have some notes on that, which I created with my own therapist. I’ll pop in to share them here, I thought they were pretty great.
:))
I’m glad it went well today. Tomorrow may also make you nervous…but as time goes on, I can guarantee the trend will be to feel more and more normal.
Rah! And Yay!
csc
Thank you my dear friend. I look forward to us sharing plateau notes 🤗
Hugs and Rah!
Jmmo x
Well, that’s one day down. I don’t know your story well enough to make any intelligent comments, but will things get easier for you as time progresses?
Hello all!
Norma, this sounds like a good development that your good-for-nothing LO is moving away. A chance for a new start. I guess it’s a feature of human nature that we can simultaneously adore someone and find them infuriating. I guess if we didn’t then it would make parenthood pretty hard.
jmmo – well done on the first few days of NC. Enjoy the freedom! But it’s also ok to find it hard too.
Is anyone here trying to “spoil rewards” by responding to those pesky intrusive thoughts with bad fantasies? How do you manage it? I have noticed that while my brain is very good at conjuring vivid fantasies if they are nice ones, it’s much harder to make myself imagine bad things happening in as much detail. My mind just wanders to something else. I have purposefully stopped the nice fantasies, but I feel as though I want more armour against the incessant thoughts of LO that pop into my head faster than I can bat them away. Does anyone have any tips?
Hi Monochrome,
I don’t know if it this answering your question directly, but can you find even a few things that LO does, or a few isolated incidents, that were/are irritating? Any you’d like to share with us, maybe, to help us build up your armour in the future?
Even if they’re not for sharing, then you’ve got to really try and notice and grab onto those. I also found it helpful trying to imagine the reality of my life if I was actually in a relationship with LO (beyond a honeymoon phase) – where those irritating things would one day become amplified. I looked for ways LO would be inferior to SO and the effect it would have on my life. Like, what if I was on a vacation with her instead of with SO – what would that look and feel like?
I say all this as someone who struggled for a long time to find these things and figure out ways to bat out the reverie. My LO is fundamentally a good person and hasn’t done anything towards me that was or is easy to demonise.
Be patient and recognise small progress – it won’t come overnight.
Hello LaR,
Thank you, I appreciate your response. It sounds as though your situation is quite similar to mine in that LO is a normal nice human being but I’m married, as is he. Both to very lovely people! I will try to focus on annoying or unattractive traits that could be amplified long term, since everyone has them. I don’t want to go into specifics on the internet.
Do you find it more helpful to focus on those kinds of things that make LO less attractive, or on the disastrous consequences an affair would create?
Thank you for the reminder to be patient. I will keep telling myself this, and recognise the small progress I have already made.
It’s nice to have all you here online since the problem is entirely in my head and nobody else knows about it! (Apart from one counsellor who I had some sessions with over a year ago).
Hi @monochrome
My track re: intrusive thoughts was to socialize more. Without SO…with friends or social contacts. I packed my calendar for a while. During that time, I would notice that as I was heading home, thought of LO would pop up. I would think “huh, I barely thought of them while I was with others…they were keeping me too busy.” I spent time not with close friends — I sought out people I didn’t know that well so I’d have to keep my mind active and at a kind of surface level (no super-deep conversations…)
For me, it had to be time without SO. Being with SO only made me fantasize more, at that point.
The added benefit of doing a social activity (volunteering, going to a book club, etc.) is that no matter what happens with SO or LO, you might make some new social connections. I realized I was sorely lacking for those…my life had become quite narrow.
Anyway, just a thought. In some ways, I think this blog serves that purpose, too. But getting out and about, meeting new people, it’s great…builds strength and confidence. Would that be something you might be able to consider?
it sucks to be told “join a group!” my mom always used to say that and it drove me nuts. but gotta say, she was right. sigh!
Hi Monochrome,
“Do you find it more helpful to focus on those kinds of things that make LO less attractive, or on the disastrous consequences an affair would create?”
I’m quite a realist, and as there was no PA or real in-the-face threat of one, I found it more helpful to use the first method ongoing. That led to very gradual desensitisation and a more rounded view of LO.
The second one eventually kind of ‘forced itself’ on me though. The effort eventually became too much of maintaining both relationships at the same time (we can call it an EA I guess – it comes down to definitions, but what I know for sure is I let myself get far too close to LO for too long for someone in my circumstances). I basically never had a moment without one or the other of them being in my presence or in my head, and I became totally exhausted. I’m not trying to sound like a victim here though – I let the situation reach that point. I realised then that I had to make a choice and pull away from LO, or else there would be bad consequences with SO.
Once I noticed my LO had one really long fingernail in comparison to the other shorter fingernails. This dampened the fantasies for a while. I still try to think about that one long fingernail when I conveniently forget all the other crappy thing LO did. Haha.
I’m feeling less sick today but still get some pangs of pain in my stomach as I process the grief. I have no desire to contact LO. I hope it stays this way but am realistic that as soon as feelings stabilise I will probably convince myself things aren’t too bad. Courage. Documenting here that I have felt awful the last few days and that’s what has to keep me going.
To Monochrome:
Your comment made me laugh. My “good-for-nothing LO.” I do love that, and I am going to remember it.
I have the same problem you do with “bad” fantasies, although LO has given me a rich buffet of annoying behaviors to choose from.
“Rich buffet of annoying behaviors” – love it!
I do enjoy a good turn of phrase.
Whoomp – did they play the guitar? That would explain the one long fingernail. Although that doesn’t help the bad fantasies. Unless they played really badly.
Nope! He smelt a bit boozy too so I’m putting it down to hygiene. I may be wrong of course but this is what helps!
Yuk! That sounds very helpful!
csc – thanks, yes I think keeping busy and meeting other people will help me. I need to keep busy anyway as per my plan to achieve LC without arousing suspicion.
csc and LaR (and anyone whom this may help).
This has brought me to tears. OMG, this is what has been happening to me at the hands of a narcissist LO. It’s not all relevant – because it’s talking about a relationship but very nearly all of it could describe my LE with “that woman” (©️csc!)
What have I been doing to myself? How have I given one really unpleasant person that much power?
Limerence, I guess…..?
Jmmo
csc and LaR
The link would help!
https://youtu.be/TnHR3Qkz1Rg?si=j7ZPE0N7bcHevmV-
whooooa @jmmo
wow. that video was hard to listen to! i had a dad with narc tendencies (not sure if he was an utter narc or not, i’m not a psychologist…) but, the pain he caused was insane. and, the chaos was awful.
i am so sorry your lo was like this. but in a way, it may make it easier for you to stay away. so, i’ll go with that. it makes it easier for you to move on…that’s a positive out of a negative.
my own lo is (was?) not a narc. just a young man i had no chance to be with. it makes it hard to really demonize him. he was a flake, and i think he genuinely cared about me. knowing i have likely hurt him a bit is hard. but, again, he’s a young man, and handsome, he’ll be fine. it makes it very sad, though. i still feel sad. i wish i could say he was just a baddie. but…he was a caring person. just young and of course, not a realistic partner, for obvious reasons. (tbh i’m not a realistic partner, either, because i have SO….)
your LO was going nuts when you started to pull away — and she KNEW the reason you were doing it. i obviously am getting the one sided pov from you, but, she did seem unhinged.
personally, if someone tells me they need me to stay away from them, that they want me to respect a boundary…i do it! i found it crazy that you respectfully asked for that, and she did not accept it.
the video you shared explained a lot — at least from what i know you’ve shared, here.
hope today’s going well. i’m ok. pretty blue today – but, it’s just… all of it. not just lo but my life, that has me a bit overwhelmed. i’ll make it. i just wish i was one of those people who is more happy, more of the time. i wonder what that’s like. it must be great. 🙂
csc
Dear csc
I’m sorry you’re blue. I really am. It brings me real pain, partly because you’re definitely my BLP (Battling Limerence Partner), and partly because after who knows how many LEs in my time, I know exactly how you feel. I promise, I really do.
I think that there are 2 things with me here. 1. I feel like I’m done with blue for this LO, although I know it’s going to come back. I can’t even say I feel a particular anger anymore, it’s more disdain now. Again – blue is never far away, is it?
Secondly, I’m afraid that one of my most undesirable traits is that I am a monumental, world champion, Indy 500-winner, Gold-Medal Olympian, Nobel-Prize winning Grudge Holder. I go through the sadness, the hurt, the angst, the regret, and then it turns to this: the “go-rot-on-a-pile-of-crap” kind of bitterness. It’s unbecoming, but most of it stays in my head. That is why I’m currently where I am.
We are on the right path. We have both taken the control back. It’s easier for me, because I’ve worked out what I allowed myself to get sucked into. Your LO sounds a different type. But, dear friend, he has still hurt you. I know he didn’t ask for your obsession but that does not totally absolve him.
Finally, I’m very well aware that I am painting her as the devil. I know. I’m to blame for getting me into this. She didn’t ask for it. But my God, once she got my devotion she knew what to do with it. And for that, she can bear my grudges. It’s the least that she can do.
Thinking of you
Jmmo x
@jmmo
ha, yes, you are my blp too. that made me smile, for sure.
it’s interesting, i suppose, if one focuses more on your empathic tendencies…after all, they are half of the title of the video that spoke to you. (but, of course, the narc gets all the attention!)
yes, if how you have reached out to me is any indicator of your empathy, i’d say you are definitely in that category. even though you also had the steel to cut lo off cold. funny, we both share those extremes.
there are so many things i’m learning about myself, through this “mother of all LE’s”… it is all a bit daunting. what to do. these days have been hard, introspective ones. yes, i could lose myself in some other pursuit…maybe…but there is a feeling for me that I MUST go through whatever this is, or I will never deal with what has bothered me all my life. like you, i have had these L tendencies as long as i can remember.
i appreciate your care and your kindness more than words can say. yes, i am struggling, but i am doing what i need to do. you and i are both doing what we need to do.
i love when people pick a word, very specific, almost like they are picking it out with tweezers– disdain!!! i understand. i think it is the perfect word.
no, my lo was not cruel. just a young man. he had no idea…and i put myself into orbit around him. he didn’t mishandle me. i am accountable, completely. (ugh)
moving forward, now i have come to that conclusion, i hope it will prevent me from getting like this again — in the past i have had some really bad, damaged LO’s…so i don’t think i’ve ever really said “csc, you PUT YOURSELF THERE”. there was always an excuse to feel like the victim. now, though, since i’ve formed a pattern, i can see, it’s me. i have to forgive myself, but, i cannot overlook it again.
….as for you, yes, if it helps, hold your grudge. honestly, as long as you don’t do anything psycho, it’s probably for the best…i imagine it will fade into a kind of…repellent force…and then you will simply detach at some point. and that will be that, done and dusted.
hugs
csc
I just watched the excellent video from JMMO regarding narcissists. It brought back a lot of memories from my marriage.
I remember it was noteworthy that my ex used to get all mushy over things like kids’ charities, and then turn around and treat me horribly. I never quite understood how he could be so kindly and sympathetic toward some people and then to be so awful toward me. He could actually start crying over something like the “Make A Wish” Foundation, and then rip into me over something minor.
I actually noticed something similar from LO this past Sunday. He was gushing about his new house, while I just sat there, stunned. He explained that he went to a nearby coffee shop to formulate his offer. He discovered that all of the employees there have Down Syndrome, and he claimed that he formed an instant bond with them. “Those are my peeps,” he said, and he almost started crying.
This gave me a chill. He bonded with the coffee shop employees, yet has treated me very unkindly. I started wondering if he’s a narcissist, too.
I guess it doesn’t matter.
Hi Norma
Glad you found it useful. I actually don’t know if my LO is narcissist. As you and csc have said, actually – it doesn’t matter. I am more and more convinced that mine is, but as my therapist said, what she/he is or isn’t is not our problem . Our issue now is “getting ourselves back” from people who – without justification – have treated us very badly.
Hope you’re doing ok Norma
Jmmo
I am actually still in shock from Sunday. Thanks for asking.
I think my best course of action is to avoid LO and his mother. Even though his mother is a lovely person, she went on and on about how wonderful and successful her children and grandchildren are.
As you may recall, I have three Special Ed daughters who do not speak to me.
I don’t mind hearing about someone else’s good fortune, but after a while, I start to feel uncomfortable. I lead a very odd life due to numerous medical problems, and I really don’t fit in with normal people very well.
I just have to keep to myself.
Bless you Norma. We are here x
I did want to mention that, out of the entire video, one sentence jumped out at me:
“Peace becomes more powerful than the need to be understood.”
I realized that I fervently wanted LO to understand me, but I don’t think he was ever interested in doing so.
Norma and Jmmo,
Not had time to watch vid yet, but was thinking about what you said, Norma.
I am not well researched about narcissism. But I had an ex with those tendencies and have a situation with a close person in my life now (not SO or xLO btw) where I suspect NPD, which means I’d do well to learn more!
Anyway … instinct told me that narcissists just want their ego stroked any which way they can get it. And that being nice could be one way to achieve that? Like, maybe he sees being kind to those Down’s people as a sure-fire way to get an ego stroke? From my experience people with Down’s are usually very friendly and kind. Maybe that’s why he likes those cafe workers?
The potential narc in my circles has recently latched on to charitable work with the vulnerable 😬 Gawd, maybe it is worse to speculate, eh?!
Anyway then I did some Googling to test my hunches. I found this online about ‘altruistic narcissists’ and it resonated:
https://www.mentalhealth.com/library/what-is-altruistic-narcissist
To quote from it:
“An altruistic narcissist is someone who meets some or all of these [NPD] criteria but also displays kind and generous actions, appearing to be altruistic. However, unlike true altruists, they only behave this way in order to be admired, revered, or to expect a favor in return”
That’s exactly Mom — a quite “altruistic” Narc. Still….
“instinct told me that narcissists just want their ego stroked any which way they can get it.“
Actually and sadly, it’s a profound “insecurity” (not normal ego needs), unable to be fulfilled ever… The link to my old posts explains it all.
To LaR:
I think LO likes being around people that he feels superior to. Those Down Syndrome people are friendly and completely unthreatening. He has no reason to feel competitive, suspicious or angry around them.
It’s exhausting trying to figure it all out.
The one thing he did that I cannot forgive is his enthusiastic gushing about his new home. Almost an altered state–total exuberance. Right in front of me when he knows how I feel about him.
@ND
I have Ex-In-laws who are like this. They have to have the best of everything and out-do everybody. 5000+ Sq. foot home, in-ground pool, hot-tub, perfect landscape, irrigation, and a big generator to power it all when the power goes out. All in a well-to-do, snooty, big-house neighborhood. They are insufferable as humans to say the least..
I live very modestly in a location they would easily despise. To them I may as well be living in a van, down by the river..
Cut to..
https://youtube.com/shorts/2nofJeF32E8?si=bfuptkUAhDs_R8–
I am divorced too.. 🤣
To MJ:
LO would fit right in. His new house is 7700 square feet, with eight bathrooms, on 19 acres. He has to move 3000 miles away to find something acceptable to live in.
Why does a single man need all that?
ND,
8 bathrooms for one person is quite extreme and totally unnecessary. My guess is he’s doing it for bragging rights. Or plans for starting a family with someone. But then again at his age, why??
Doesn’t seem like you’ll be losing much when he goes.
To MJ:
He needs it for something in his brain that I don’t understand. His current home is also quite lavish. Not as big, but there are two separate houses on five lots. Huge gardens, lots of antiques. One of the homes is actually a protected historical monument built in the 1920s.
People usually downsize when they’re in their late sixties. Plus they move to a warmer climate. This guy has lived in a mild climate his entire life and is moving to a harsh climate at 67.
The only clue I have is that he once whined to me, “I need my aesthetic.”
If he asked my advice, I would say “F*** your aesthetic, you need to be practical. You’re taking your elderly mother away from all her other children and grandchildren. Look how many people you’re hurting because of your ‘aesthetic.’ “
@ND
You should say it anyway. Unless it’s what his Mother really wants as well. They might be two peas in a pod. Which might explain his behavior, I don’t know.
With this guy, he seems to be somewhat milquetoast about everything. Not really giving a crap about anybody and living a stuffy, lonely life. I think you’ll be better off without him.
Then again, if he’s a friend to you in some capacity, I guess that’s why you are confounded..
To MJ:
I think his mother is in denial. Between her children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, she has a large brood, and they all live locally. I asked her, didn’t she mind moving, and she said something vague about being able to visit because air travel was so readily available.
I don’t think that’s going to be very practical, but I said nothing. Flying is easy for LO, not so much for his mother.
I am sure I will be better off in the long run without him. It’s just the process I have to go through to get to that point which is difficult.
Dang, does he do the cleaning himself, too? That’s way too much house for one person….I can’t even imagine because I live in such a small place that we don’t even have to “downsize” when we get older, lol
To Serial Limerent:
I am unclear as to who does the cleaning. I asked him once and he said he did most of it himself, but I can’t see where he finds the time, what with a full-time job, plus taking care of his elderly mother.
MJ
Milquetoast? Don’t hear that word used often. You done transported me back to the 90’s. Made me think of this song … how’s this for Adam listening to rock?
Milquetoast — Helmet
https://youtu.be/P9qhRLeCgN8?si=8TdBWTvyJKJewYeA
And my personal favorite of their songs …
Tic — Helemt
https://youtu.be/ivMR-g9cAO8?si=-g5TUaCo_QPQHIwC
I haven’t heard that word in a long time, either. I certainly don’t see LO as a milquetoast person–quite the opposite. He has such a forceful personality, it’s almost too much for me. He gets into a lot of unnecessary arguments with people because he refuses to back down on anything.
However, he IS obsessed with his decorating and his antiques to a disturbing degree. There are any number of lovely homes he could down-grade to in this area, which would spare his mother an exhausting cross-country move.
So what I see is that he prefers his objects to his family, even though he does take good care of his mom.
@norma
i forgot – how long until lo leaves?
guessing it will be several months while he packs up, or does he still need to sell his place?
His place isn’t even on the market yet. I think it will take a long time to sell. As I said earlier, it’s two houses on five lots–not everyone’s cup of tea. Certainly not suitable for anyone with children.
He’s supposed to move in September, but if this house doesn’t sell in time? I dunno. It was built about 45 years ago by an antique dealer to look like an old French chateau. Very unusual. Then the other house is a historical home in a different style built about 100 years ago. They’re just yards apart on the same property.
Yeah, I dust off the oldies now and then with the vocabulary. I like the word “skullduggery” too. Highly underused given with all the crap one can find online. Guess it does age me though, while I’m trying to be 35, when I’m actually 54..
Lord have mercy.. 😑
Yeah I thought NDs guy sounded a little bland and aloof but she’s mentioned he’s otherwise now in her recent post. I’m just assuming when I don’t know a thing.
Good music btw, lol.. I forgot about that band but remember liking it and that album cover when it came out. Appropriate for that music.. 🤣
To MJ:
Hard to know what somebody’s like with just a few words on the internet.
He’s tall, thin, imposing, with a gorgeous silver fox thing going on. Very strong personality, but also very OCD. He is almost a caricature of the stereotypical fussy designer. But also strong as an ox. Does almost all his own gardening, with lots of big trees to wrangle. Does almost all his own repairs. Last time I was over there, he was just finishing a patch on the roof. Obviously not afraid of heights.
Very talented in many respects, but very aloof and self-protective. Very angry about being alone, but I do think he’s far too obsessed with his work and his possessions to make a relationship work.
Not sure why I’m so nuts about him. Nuts. Seriously nuts.
I think I use the word milquetoast now and then, lol. And I remember that song from the Crow soundtrack. 🙂
I had never heard the word. Always good to learn a new one.
Thanks MJ!
To MJ:
Don’t forget Sammy used the word “strumpet” a while back. I think that fits in somehow.
I miss her, but I don’t.
There is so much that I know (now) that is horrid about her…..
And yet…
I’m doing everything right. I’m ridding myself of someone who is poisonous, self-absorbed, unempathic ….
So why?
I miss her, but I DEFINITELY do not.
I don’t, right??
I also fee conflicted. I think it’s important not to be in denial.
I don’t think we should lie to ourselves about how well we’re doing
Norma
It’s an excellent point. So much if the brevity process lies in accepting where we are.
Thank you xx
So much of the recovery process 🙄
I wish there was an edit button. I noticed a typo after I posted, and I dearly wish I could fix it.
Just Me,
IMP — you do NOT miss her as a realistic person, but something you envision/allude she represents, something she mirrors in you or she triggered your subconscious desires…. On the surface, it seems that you miss her, but actually you miss that “THING”. That’s how good or bad LO worked/works… in my case, and in many serial LE cases here.
Unless you find out what LOs represents and what has been fundamentally missing inside us, when LE took place, we can’t truly get rid of this LE or we’d slip into the future LEs again.
Perhaps you could focus more on yourself, especially when you work with your therapist.
Dear ❄️
You have absolutely nailed it. Exactly. I don’t miss her. I actually – at the moment – loathe her. It’s absolutely about what she represented. How, like all LOs before, she filed a gap. Yes, the work I’m doing is almost entirely focussed on what that gap is.
Thank you dear ❄️
JMMO
I know, I know I’ve been all about the music today. But I found this song inadvertently on youtube some time ago. Ever since it has been my “therapy song” when I start to think of her again. It reminds me of who she is. Who is not what limerence told me she was. I am not trying to demonize her, because at heart she is a wonderful and caring woman. But in the realm of my interactions with her in limerence she is the subject of this song.
Easy On The Eyes — Terri Clark
https://youtu.be/RAbrk3OISyo?si=69SeizdNsdKTrjrC
Adam
That is brilliant! Sums it up perfectly!
Thanks mate.
if I may, @Adam and @JMMO
here’s a good one 🙂 kinda fun, i like the sentiment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkWVLCb-HZw
csc (and Adam)
Of COURSE you may BLP.
Ok here’s one from my favourite band. csc – you’ll have to change the words to “man”, and I know it still doesn’t entirely fit your situation, but… for better or worse, it’s my current state of mind.
https://youtu.be/oqr-_CBFw10?si=A07ZxQmUMcBxXdAg
Love it!! 😁😁
csc
I have been trying out more country recently. Raised a yankee, country music wasn’t around much. The most exposure I got was an aunt who was a Kenny Rogers fan. My wife introduced me to most of the country music I know now. I’ve heard of Waylon Jennings but I think this is the first of his I’ve heard. He’s got a very commanding and masculine voice. Kinda makes me think of him as country music’s Barry White.
But my all-time favorite fun country songs, my wife introduced me to is ….
Tight Fittin Jeans — Conway Twitty
https://youtu.be/fEr3nqEFuDA?si=Hbiu-V2H9uUEtYdx
Mel McDaniel — Baby’s Got Her Blue Jeans On
https://youtu.be/m1lVMI-utps?si=iQTvxi32OODkNRcS
And yes it is just a coincidence two of my favorite country songs are about women in jeans. It’s not a pattern or anything like that 😁
Adam,
“Forever In Blue Jeans” – Neil Diamond (1979)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKiemHPECZI
I like a lot of Neil Diamond but musically, he was all over the map.
Cripes, this is turning into quite a good toe-gazing party folks.
I feel we are building a playlist for that poor harpist at #limcamp25
😂 there’ll be some dancing to these tunes!!
Jmmo, of course you do.
I miss my LO so much.
Stopping any obsession is a jolt to the system.
Be kind to yourself and turn the obsession habit onto you and your health and wellness. It’s what I am trying to do.
It’s about changing habits which is hard. We will get there….
Today, I don’t miss her. Today, I loathe her. Today I want nothing more than to hear that she has taken a job in Siberia. Or Outer-Mongolia. Or even better, Mars.
There’s no reason for this other than the state I’m going through. I’m not angry, I’m just bitter. The anger is reserved for myself and the Big L. She doesn’t deserve my anger. She deserves my silence, my blocking, and my utter refusal to engage with her ever again.
She has them.
And she’s welcome to them.
Hi Jmmo,
Hope you’ve done OK this week. Saturday is here at any rate.
“I’m not angry, I’m just bitter. The anger is reserved for myself and the Big L.”
I reckon this a stage we have to go through. I had a lot of it while I was still in the LE. Sometimes in the aftermath it was (not really warranted in my case) anger towards her too. In the end, you want to work towards much more self-kindness about it and cutting yourself slack. That it happened doesn’t make you a bad person. There don’t seem to be many people here at LwL and yet it has happened to all of us.
I’d say I still know and regret that I made bad decisions and what those were, and the consequences of them. But I can look at it now a bit more with understanding, when I consider all the backdrop to the LE, and think more like “anyone could react like that in those circumstances – live and learn”. I have lost a lot of the anger and resentment and started to forgive myself.
I am not saying you can just wave a wand and reach that point, but I am saying that it is a point you might be able to look forward to eventually, once you’ve put in the hard yards.
Typo:
There don’t seem to be many *bad* people here at LwL and yet it has happened to all of us.
Hi LaR
Thanks mate. I’m actually doing ok. I have managed to totally avoid her this week.
You’re absolutely right. I shouldn’t get angry with myself. This is something that we all share and it isn’t really our fault that we’re limerents. I guess I’m trying to deflect some of my anger from LO, partly because I don’t want her “having” that energy, and partly because it serves me no purpose. I have promised myself this morning that I will try to stop being angry and bitter and using it as a justification for wanting nothing more to do with her. Her behaviour has been what it’s been – I don’t need to remind myself or “justify” to myself why I went NC and refused to allow her to be in my life – I think I’ve been keeping the flame of anger burning in order to prove to myself that I did the right thing.
Does that make sense?
I’ve gone, and I’m not ever going back. At the moment I dislike her very much, hopefully that will fade to sheer apathy. I did what I did for my own protection and wellbeing. I don’t need anger and bitterness.
Jmmo,
It does make sense, but I think don’t hold back on expressing the anger here or letting it out in harmless and helpful ways in life (eg the punchbags!). Don’t will the anger away as it is probably good and necessary to acknowledge and release it (I am not good at releasing mine, so it stays quite pent up and internalised).
You’ve been through this a few times before by the sounds of it, so you probably know what stages are likely in what order. I was just trying to offer you a message of hope that the anger bit will abate eventually (when in it, I felt like it never would). It is good to do the hard slog of working out why you let it happen at that point, with her – but try to do it with compassion for yourself where you can.
LaR
The message about the anger abating was received and understood with gratitude mate . It’s good to be reminded of it.
Yes, you’re right again. It does need letting out, in appropriate and safe ways. And yes, I know from past LEs that it fades and the acceptance comes. Like you, I’m not good at letting anger out, so it tends to build until it has negative effects on me. It’s also pretty futile redirecting that anger towards myself. I should allow myself to be angry towards her so that it “has its say” and moves on.
Thanks for the support mate, it’s truly appreciated.
Jmmo
I think anger is so much more empowering than sadness. I have mostly been sad about LO for two years, but now I am FURIOUS.
I haven’t texted him, and I don’t plan to. I am still thinking about him, but the urge to contact him is no longer very strong.
Between him giving me horrible news in a gleeful, exuberant tone of voice, as well as not caring about some new health problems I have–well, it doesn’t get rid of limerence, but it IS a giant turn-off.
LO is well on his way to making himself ancient history.
Hi Norma
You’re right, it’s so much more empowering than sadness. It gives you a feeling of strength back, whereas sadness puts you further at their mercy.
Whilst I’m sorry that you’re angry, I am glad to hear that you appear to have moved to the next stage, and to have taken back some control.
Best wishes
Jmmo
@imho and @snowphoenix and @jmmo
yes, this is all such good advice…while i am not in a venomous mood towards my xlo, i am sure this advice will do me good, too.
it’s hard. yes. i feel like i’ve been through something really disorienting. more than anything, i feel awful that i’ve squandered a year of my life, to emerge only more confused than i felt before. it comes and goes day by day. i am so ready to feel mentally better, but i have some big things to deal with, and so must give myself patience.
jmmo, remind me, how long were you in limerence for “that woman”?
csc
Imho – yes, great advice. Thank you for the reassurance.
csc – I was in Limerence for “that woman” for a year – 14 months
Jmmo x
I have been wondering why I am so attached to LO, and I finally realized that he makes me feel warm and safe somehow. However, this is an illusion, because he has a mercurial temperament, and we don’t have the kind of relationship where he comforts me much.
If I were to approach him, he could just as easily snap at me as hug me. So I am trying to get to the bottom of my thought process, or fantasy process (?) and why on earth this unpredictable person strikes me as a source of comfort?
I don’t think anything that I just typed makes sense, but I am going to leave it as is and think about it further. If anyone has any bright ideas, please feel free to chime in.
ND
It made sense. He makes you feel warm and safe. That sums it up. Although you two don’t seem extremely close.
Maybe you’re just overthinking things. If you’ve been friends for a long time, you may be wondering how life will be without his company when he leaves. So this may be ramping up your anxiety level.
To me, it doesn’t seem like you are outright limerent over him (as say, limerence feels to me) but I’m not inside your head so I don’t know what you feel.
However, once he does move, you might experience more of a limerent nature feeling because of his unavailability. This might increase depending on how much you miss him when that happens..
This would be a good thread for Den Mother Lovisa to reply to. If she sees this post..
To MJ:
We AREN’T extremely close, but I think we are extremely close in my fantasy.
Thank you for giving me some things to think about.
Norma,
Maybe because he reminds you of your husband? He was a bit like that too? but he was a constant presence in your life that maybe made you feel stable or safe, simply because he was there as someone to relate to for a long time?
To Mila:
The only ways he was like my husband are that he’s powerful and extremely smart.
You could be onto something there.
Norma,
Well, the armchair psychologists are straining at the leash to say that he might remind you of someone from your childhood. Did you have a parent or other important figure who ran a little hot and cold? Sometimes unpredictable, sometimes warm and loving? I’m not an expert on early attachment, some on here could say more. And this is just something to consider, I’m not saying this necessarily relates to you.
To Trifles:
Good food for thought. Maybe my dad?
Hello Norma,
My best guess is that you obsess over your LO because you are lonely.
I’ve noticed a pattern in your posts. I could be wrong, but it seems like you aren’t satisfied with anyone in your real life. Do you have any close relationships?
I think you would benefit from therapy. Who knows, you might be able to repair your relationships with your daughters.
To Lovisa:
I have a couple of good friends, but not a lot.
You’re probably right.
Norma D,
And I’d say you are annoyed with him and critical of him because he’s not giving you the close friendship you want. And it doesn’t sound like he’s going to. That’s the very essence of an LO … they don’t show up in our lives in the ways we want. Unfortunately.
Can I say, though? I’d like to see his new house. It sounds like he has good taste. No cookie cutter suburban homes for him! 🙂
To Marcia:
I don’t suppose it’s allowed to post pictures. His current house is actually much more spectacular. This house is one-of-a-kind.
The new house is not cookie-cutter, but it’s very similar to others in the area.
Both homes are sumptuous, way more extravagant than he needs.
Yes, I know that LO will never show up the way I need him to. Just as well he’s leaving, then he will stop letting me down.
I am fond of saying, if you look up the word “disappointment” in the dictionary, there is a picture of LO.
Norma,
“The new house is not cookie-cutter, but it’s very similar to others in the area.”
Do you live in an historic district with older homes?
“I am fond of saying, if you look up the word “disappointment” in the dictionary, there is a picture of LO.”
So I know this is much harder to do with an LO … but I find that with people who disappoint me, I pull back. My efforts match the quality of the relationship. For example, I have a friend who always threatens to cancel or does cancel when we have plans. So I stop making plans with her. We text … idk … once a month for a check-in… and talk on the phone every now and then. That’s what I’m willing to do. That’s as much energy as I’m willing to expend. I would like to hang out and do things with her, but she can’t or won’t show up. And I don’t want to keep setting myself up.
This doesn’t mean I’m never disappointed by people. But it reduces it.
Or look at it this way … only give people the best of you who give you their best. (Easier said than done, I know.) If they give you crumbs, crumbs is what they gettin’. 🙂
To Marcia:
No, his house is an anomaly. One time, his snobbery really reared its ugly head when he gestured to the modest homes across the street and said, “I certainly didn’t move here for the neighborhood!”
The man who built the house in 1980 bought 5 lots, only one of which had a small home built in the 1920s. He added the new house, made to look like an old French chateau. So the property has two houses, yards apart, in two different styles, with tons of lush gardens.
It’s completely dis-similar to anything else in the neighborhood. All the other homes are pleasant but modest.
LO loves it but he wants to “downsize.” Except he’s only downsizing in terms of cost. The new house is actually bigger and the property size is much bigger. Plus it will be freezing many months of the year.
I can’t imagine what he’s thinking.
Norma D,
“I can’t imagine what he’s thinking.
Well, let’s focus on you. What do you plan on doing next? He’s moving far away, right? What do you plan on doing when he’s gone? Do you feel you need to get more social? Join some groups, etc. ? Hobbies? I’m not sure if you’re still working, but the busier you can get, the less time/chance you’ll have to think about him.
Does his mother live with him?
To Marcia:
Yes, his mother lives with him.
I have major health problems and can’t get around very well.
I have to take things one day at a time based on my limitations.
Norma D,
“Yes, his mother lives with him.”
Do you think you’re looking for someone to care for you? You’ve become limerent for someone who is caring for someone himself.
“I have major health problems and can’t get around very well. I have to take things one day at a time based on my limitations.”
I’m sorry to hear about your health issues. Can you do online stuff? I’ve noticed some meet ups are online. I think they are Skype meetings. Do you have Skype? I believe you can download it for free.
I went to a meetup last night … and even having to introduce myself, make conversation, listen … it got me out of myself and forced me to be more present. Instead of worrying about why poppy pants friends or relatives weren’t responding in the way I’d hoped.
To Marcia:
You could be right, that I wish he would care for me the way he does with his mother. Although, when I was over there, I felt very uncomfortable having him serve me food. It didn’t feel right.
I was embarrassed and kept wanting to jump up to help. I actually feel more comfortable doing things for him.
Norma D,
Ok. Enough about your LO. 🙂
What about YOU? What are your plans for building some of this support you need?
To Marcia:
I really need to take it one day at a time. As an example, I over-did it yesterday and woke up with a fever and a runny nose today. This happens to me quite often when I over-do. So my plans for today had to be scrapped.
I’m sorry, it’s very difficult to explain how limited I am.
Thank you for taking so much time with me.
Norma D,
“Thank you for taking so much time with me.”
You’re welcome.
Update check in: almost a week since my set back. I still have a knot in my stomach but have been functioning and can override the feelings with logical thoughts on the whole.
Yesterday I re-read the recovery mindset blog and journalled alongside it my response and tried to visualise my recover road map, noting the barriers to recovery and tried to put down the negative feelings that come out from all this. I drew a picture of myself down a hole that i had dug with spiders snakes and scorpions telling me that I’m pretty, that they’re impressed by me (such as LO would say) but then my SO and kids on the ground above telling me to climb out but me saying I’m happy in the whole I dug whilst clearly being surrounded by unsafe chaos.
I have realised along the way that LO brings out all the bad characteristics of my personality-jealousy, insecurity, anxiety, over thinking, low self esteem. Yet I crave the initial attention and the good feeling.
Today I feel sad. My emotions are getting the better of me. I’m trying not to cry but the tears keep surfacing. I feel rejected. Logically I’m glad nothing happened but emotionally I feel sad that LO didn’t choose me. He is not interested in me. My feelings were not mutual or reciprocated. A period of feeling sad, then hopefully acceptance, self respect and dust myself off and move on (that’s the goal!)
Dear Whoomp
I’m sorry that you feel sad. I would just like to assure you that it’s normal, even healthy. Rejection is never pleasant, and you’re dealing with that on top of the grief.
Please – if you need to, cry. As much as you need to. Believe me, I have. I’ve cried at home, in the car, even found a corner at work and sobbed. Please allow yourself to do it.
Thinking of you and awaiting update s
Jmmo
Hi @whoomp
I wanted to reply just in case it’s helpful for you to know there’s someone out here who has the same feelings you do…me.
Your drawing is almost exactly how I see my own situation, as a hole. I often think “I’ve climbed out but I’ve got one arm and one leg over the side and am gasping for air.” That’s “progress” but I really wish my progress felt more…. momentous. It feels more like…”well, I guess I’ll be clinging to the edge of this hole for the next god knows how long.”
I am triggered often. Cry sometimes. I’m exhausted and disappointed in myself. And I’ve been NC for 2 months.
I know how you feel. Some days I’m just…deeply sad.
You’re not alone, not crazy or damaged any more than I am…we are just dealing with something awful. I too feel rejected in the deepest sense…it’s horrible.
It will take time, that’s all I know. Keep to your path and we will get to a better place. I believe this…but no I am not there yet, myself. Still, I hope it helps to hear.
With care ❤️
csc
Ps your screen name always makes me laugh. Even at my worst ☺️
❤️
To Whoomp:
I think it’s better if you allow yourself to cry. Suppressing the crying will just prolong your grief.
Just checking in this morning.
Whoomp, your drawing sounds very powerful and the journalling sounds very wise.
Norma, what you say does make sense and it’s good that you’re figuring out why you’re so attached to him and being analytical about it.
For me, reading Smitten and lots of articles in this blog are really helpful, maybe because my situation is similar to the reason Dr L set up this whole thing. LO is similar enough to various close friends of mine that if I’d met him while I’d been single, I’d totally have asked him out. There are people in life who we are drawn to, and thank goodness there’s not just one because what if we didn’t get to meet them?
But because life was difficult at the time, instead of just finding him attractive but not being interested, my brain latched on to thoughts of him and used them as a coping mechanism. Before I knew it, it had become a self-reinforcing habit.
It is easier now that I understand it, but I’m aware that I need to keep my distance and be careful while I retrain my brain. I saw him yesterday and failed to keep conversation to a bare minimum. I can’t avoid him completely but I need to improve my “got to go, bye!” response. I am a bit better at not dwelling on thoughts of him, even when I have seen him, but it’s not as good as going NC, which unfortunately isn’t possible.
Hi Monochrome,
Good to be reminded that sometimes this is really ‘all there is to it’. Sometimes limerence gets pathologised a lot here, but there is not always something wrong with the actors involved (DrL has been strong on this point over time).
The fact is, occasionally we just will meet people we are naturally attracted to. And if neither person had SO, those relationships would naturally progress. But when the (otherwise natural) progress is blocked, limerence develops.
I have had two LEs like this while in my relationship, with a gap of about 6 or 7 years between. With the first, I knew from the LO that it could theoretically progress from her side too (she disclosed as much but we both had SO). With the second, I battled for so long about whether to disclose as I really wanted to know if it was mutual. I never did, as I concluded there was no good answer I could get. It was futile to know, and it would ultimately have been a really bad move to put something out into the world that was otherwise safely contained in my head and here on LwL with anonymity. The first LO was moving away anyway after disclosure. This one has been such a bigger slog because she has been in close proximity all the way.
I only learned what limerence was and found LwL on the latest one. I don’t know about you, but I hope my main learning from this place is how to spot it earlier and turn the other way, if it happens again.
Re your ” life was difficult at the time”, while I say I don’t think we should pathologise limerence, that life difficulty is something we and many others share. Maybe it acts as a tipping point – same person at different time wouldn’t trigger us as much, as resistance would be stronger. No science behind that, just a random guess.
Good luck wirh the work on your “got to go. bye”. It’s one of the banes of my general life, let alone limerence!
My latest LE definitely has come after a series of events that disturbed me—I’ve had a crush on LO for many years, almost 20, but it was always just a little flirtation. I even had a couple other LE’s during that time. Then COVID, then various political events, then a couple of dangerous events in my own life….Meanwhile there were personal things going on as well that made me depressed. Then one day LO gives me a hug and—wham!
I am slowly approaching my four year mark with the LO. Slowly turning into a warm glow of embers and comfort. Not the storm, lightning and painful aches anymore. Notfriends, ever.
“Warm glow of embers and comfort”
@CG
This is good but where did all the time go, right?
I’ll be at 3 years in July and I am about in the same place now. LO will always feel special to me I think, yet it’s so much better not to be painfully aching over her anymore. Or maybe not as often I should say..
I work with my LO, so, sigh, I know where that time went. I am not sure where I am mentally. I think it has morphed into another type of affection really, more caring, nurturing, supportive type of feeling, hence the word ‘glowing embers’. Still attached, but not with the crushing high and lows, more warm glowing comfort, and hot soup on a cold day feeling of familiarity and safety.
LaR, “same person at different time wouldn’t trigger us as much, as resistance would be stronger” – definitely!
CamillaGeorge Are you feeling calmer? Do you feel as though you’re mainly through it or is it still eating at you?
LO called me because he was worried about me. We normally run into each other on Thursday evenings and I was MIA.
I have absolutely zero desire to tell him how angry I am with him, as this would devolve into an argument with him blaming me for everything. I am not well, and avoidance is better for me. He has a forceful personality and can flatten me like a steamroller.
As it turns out, I got some concerning medical results recently, which are worrying me. Chances are that it’s nothing, but I won’t feel better until I get further testing to rule out various problems.
Being a huge coward, I told LO that I was upset about my medical issues, which is technically true, but withheld the real reason I was avoiding him.
He was very comforting, and I wished he could be like this more often. But I also felt cold because I am still furious about his behavior last week.
@Mila,
I’m a day late than planned . Apologies.
I’m posting here, because the earlier thread is skinny and I know you not keen on scrolling.
LO hasn’t contacted me. He has gone NC.
The last message is from me.
He may still get in touch but I don’t yearn for it all the time like before. I know he is going through a tough time but he hasn’t asked how I am doing for a very long time. So I’m using this to be a bit angry at him. I amplify that feeling to try to get the focus back to myself.
A colleague just this week didn’t know LO had left the organisation so I gave them the news. The colleague went on and on and on about how lovely and decent LO is and how he will be missed. And he asked me how he could contact LO. I had to downplay my own thoughts and feelings of course .
That conversation didn’t help my emotions, but I felt sad for a bit and then some hope that the colleague connecting with LO may then trigger LO to reach out to me.
I dont know what will happen and if he visits my country soon but I doubt he will meet me.
I think he may view me as ‘high risk’.
All contact is now personal not work, so his SO would see his contact list, messages etc. it’s closer to home shall we say.
I’m doing better , as per my update to LaR on some things I am doing for myself. The season and good weather helps the mood too.
Anyway for you, glad you are doing okay and made it through the week.
The sooner you get this trip out of the way the better. I think it may help you to just settle with how it is with xLO now. And you have the benefit of being able to make decisions about how much time you spend with him. You don’t have to hold his hand all the time I say. You are in charge and he won’t change his ways to what he should, or what you would expect from a friend, sadly.
Hi Imho,
Thanks for your message, please don’t apologize for delays or not answering, although I have to admit that this time I waited for it since I’m a bit troubled by XLO friendship and not many people to talk about it apart from two friends who only know about friendship issues and not limerence. It’s good to just read some words from someone who knows.
I‘m having the fullest week of the year, I guess, today is tough and all coming days until the trip, but I’ll find a way to answer you properly. Hang in there, hold back on guessing/wondering why he went NC, focus on your newfound joys (I‘m jealous- my plan is to start something like that after the trip)!
By the way, this searching tool crashes the website now every time I try it…
Mila,
I wish you well on the coming days. I know I have been feeling overwhelmed by life, family, work and everything going on in my head.
Of course I don’t know what challenges you are facing but you will be fine because you have done it before with a good outcome.
Try to focus on one thing at a time and maybe ask others to help where possible.
And maybe plan something nice for you to look forward to after the trip just for you only ( eg a beauty treatment or whatever)
💪🏻💪🏻😘
Thanks Imho! Started a post but realized that my brain is still too scrambled and also have to dash out again in 10 min.
But will reply!!😘
Imho,
Just remembered that I said to you I wanted to reply to a point in here:
“I felt sad for a bit and then some hope that the colleague connecting with LO may then trigger LO to reach out to me.”
If you really want a full DoH (if you think on balance it is the best thing for you) then try to push on from this and see it as an opportunity, not a problem, that he has gone NC. With the more time that passes, the more I think you’ll feel like that. That he is NC doesn’t mean he doesn’t care about or consider you, as you said yourself with the ‘high risk’ point.
I mentioned in the past that xLO rarely instigates texts, but when I do, she replies in a torrent, like I have opened a gate and ‘given permission’ as it were. A couple of months ago I had an opportunity to be NC for not far off a whole month. I held my trigger finger the whole time. By the end I was hoping she’d hold the NC too – actively *not* wanting to get a text. That’s when I knew my DoH was actually getting somewhere.
I am not saying it will be the same for you but it is worth thinking out what needs to happen for you to have a proper DoH (again, if you want it). Will a long NC help or hinder? Would you be more likely to have DoH while being total NC or with some casual contact? You can influence this either way. If you decide NC is best, is there then room to let him back in a little as a friend later, once all has calmed? Or would you not be sure on that yet?
All those are rhetorical questions definitely not seeking answers here. And there are no ‘wrong answers’ as far as I’m concerned. I and others here doubtless don’t know half the story, but you will know what you want to happen and what it takes to get there 💪 It is different for every one of us it seems. Go well with the next bit.
@LaR,
Thanks for all you shared here.
You ask some good questions. Most of them I am not sure of the answers yet.
I do need to consider them though, because if ( when ) he does make contact I need to be prepared with a good mindset.
Will it send me back into a loop , I just do not know. For now I agree, I am thankful for the NC. It is indeed an opportunity and it is making me address my own priorities and face some uncomfortable realities that will not be fixed by ruminating on LO.
I hope it time we can indeed be true friends, but that may just be another fantasy.
Thanks again
Hi Imho, and anyone who wants to read my rambling boring posts,
I try to write something now although my brain is still in overload. It‘s harder to have XLO around than I thought. There seem to be two realities- one is the one where he is a sweet loyal person who cannot express himself but still cares for me and is a worthy friend, the other one is where he‘s less than a friend than I thought and it’s mostly about what he can get from me (validation, routine, company)without giving back anything that would be helpful or good for me.
Plus, limerent past lurking in the background and me being paranoid that it might creep back.
For the last reason, I mainly move in the second reality, but it’s causing me pain, and I also have a bad conscience for treating him distantly. Sometimes a door to the first reality suddenly opens up in me, but then he fails to do something to reinforce it and my latent fear of letting in limerence again also strikes, so the door bangs shut again.
If I could believe the second, bad view of him completely, it wouldn’t be so difficult. But I don’t, and I’m really angry that now it’s again the case that I suffer in this situation more than him. I feel a strong impulse to avoid him and wish he would just go away, then again I suddenly lose that view for seconds, which essentially feels like relaxation and letting-go. But it’s only for a short time and then I feel this reluctance to see him again.
We are not yet on the big trip, and I wonder how to go on- will it solve itself or do I have to do something(since he won’t do something, passive as he is)like talk to him again? I mean, I know that I won’t get a satisfying conversation out of him, it will be me talking and him saying something like „hm“ and looking vexed, but would it help me to get out of this frozen state of reluctance and feeling uncomfortable?, if I told him the truth not about past limerence but about current problems? Actually he could just reread my emails back then, I said it all there and didn’t get a proper answer, so would it just leave me feeling repetitive and bad?
The problem is also the working together. I cannot share the nature of my work, but I can say that it’s difficult because he must notice that there’s a degree of me turning away and not communicating. Also, and this reminds me of your talk with your colleague , other colleagues gush about how great he is and how everything is so easy since he‘s here for the week and how they miss him etc. ,which doesn’t help my anxiety that I’m shunning a great person and friend.
On top of that I really had a tough week , still ongoing. No words of compassion or
encouragement from him, of course. But then, I‘m not encouraging either, am I. He basically always follows my lead and a bit less, what concerns communication or warmth.
The problem is, I know how he is and cannot get myself to just accept it without resentment.
Rant over. Am on my way to a short visit to LO2 and family, which might cheer me up.
Imho, I think he doesn’t get in touch because he is himself overwhelmed with developments in his life, I don’t think he deliberately holds back because you are a danger (maybe subconsciously). But then, I cannot know at all. It’s just my experience that we limerents tend to see everything how LOs act a tad too much in connection with ourselves.
You don’t need him, really. It’s great that you got hold of your life and joys again. Try to see him as someone who‘s busy with himself at the moment, as are you, and push him to the sidelines of your life.
Hi Mila
I just wanted to acknowledge your post. I have read it and I’m hurting for you.
I can’t reply fully at the moment, but I will this evening.
Thinking of you
Jmmo x
Hi Mila, the play on words of your name today made me laugh.
I hope you writing all that out was helpful to offload your overload somewhat.
It can help I find when my thoughts are chaotic or in your case, oscillating.
It brings some order just by getting the thoughts down into the written word.
It seems you are bit trapped still between these two states with xLO.
On some level you have expectations that he will come good and be more caring and this would help the resentment to subside. But would it ever come ?
I don’t know what advice if any you want or I give that would be helpful.
You already explained yourself to him, so I’m sure he knows but just can’t handle it.
If he comforts and supports others when they are under pressure or having some crisis, even in a small way the you could legitimately ask him why he didn’t reach out last week.
What do you want externally from him that is realistic? and what internally do you need from yourself to let the resentment go?
My feeling is the trip will help bring some shift. It’s probably weighing on your mind more than you think as well as your other challenges.
Maybe others here have some words to add.
As for me, yes you are right. LO has his own life and his own set of things going on right now and I have mine. that is that.
I need to concentrate on the simple and realistic things to improve my life by myself. Nobody else is going to do that for me and I am not the right one to support him in his current situation. I am in the sidelines of his life, for sure, and he is slowly moving into my sidelines too.
I hope seeing your friends today will be fun.
Hi Imho!
I slowly start to reply everyone , not sure if I manage in one go.
You are spot on in that I need to write stuff down to sort myself, and the lovely thing here is that you empathetic people respond with interesting cues.
„You already explained yourself to him, so I’m sure he knows but just can’t handle it.“
I‘m actually not sure if he really got it. I explained myself in detail, he read it and was probably overwhelmed and,as I suspect,didn’t really try to let it sink in or understand, but just wrote back that he is feeling bad and that he thinks himself a good friend (that email was just me, me, me, no reflection on mine).
So I gave up and just wrote back that we can still be friends (since he asked).
Still, I had written what is lacking for a real deep friendship for me and that I see that it’s not possible with him etc., very clearly.
My guess is, he was overwhelmed, didn’t want to cope with it, shut his ears and eyes and tried to go on as always. And in the meantime he forgot about what I wrote or hasn’t let it sink in at any time, and just wants to go on as always and feels hurt that I don’t play along.
„What do you want externally from him that is realistic? and what internally do you need from yourself to let the resentment go?“
Have to think about that. I think I don’t want something consciously, but subconsciously still expect something. It’s more that I don’t know what to do myself to just let go and let the good feelings for him come back in a measured way.
„It’s probably weighing on your mind more than you think as well as your other challenges.“
Absolutely. As Snow says, it’s easier to get rid of everything when there’s no friendship. He really didn’t occupy my mind any more at all now in the last months, wasn’t important, it’s only now that he‘s back and I’m expected to spend time with him that there’s trouble.
But you know, I now think it’s normal. I just expected too much from myself maybe, to simply snap back into a casual friendship in a certain timeline. Maybe it just needs more time, and as you say, the trip might solve some tensions and expectations. Maybe I should stop not only stuff from him, but also stop expecting from myself to be all relaxed and mature about it now.
„I need to concentrate on the simple and realistic things to improve my life by myself.“
That’s what I need to do too.
I didn’t mean necessarily that you are not important to him. I just think his mind works differently from yours and he acts accordingly different now with his situation, whatever it is. We cannot really know why he went NC. The main thing is, since you can’t know, you do the right thing in concentrating on other stuff.
Hi Mila,
When people show you who they are, believe them, I guess?
Its hard when your impression of what they are showing seems to vacillate. That’s maybe the issue here? Its reminiscent of the old limerence roller-coaster, although with smaller hills and valleys than before.
In your case, all is complicated by the friendship preceding limerence. And the fact that he is good at his job seems to turn you on :))))
I see my LO so infrequently but we have contact virtually. I am still inclined to be on a roller-coaster ride with him, I vacillate between ‘pah! He can get to the back of the queue for my attention’ and ‘awwww, what a sweetie!’
None of it really makes sense and I put it down to the fact that something about him makes me over-emotional – in both directions!
Wishing you luck in the days ahead….
Hi Bewitched,
„Its hard when your impression of what they are showing seems to vacillate. That’s maybe the issue here?“
Yes and always was the issue, maybe. But at least it’s not the old rollercoaster in the sense of me desiring him or hoping for something more than friendship. It’s more me vacillating between positive and negative views of him and still feeling grief and missing the person he’s not.
Again, cannot reveal the job, but yes, being good at that job is a general turn on for me.
You are rollercoastering a bit too still? But you are out of the deep dark woods, right?
Hi Mila,
Good morning!
I hope your nervous system is getting some rest – although it sounds very busy where you are at, right now …
“You are rollercoastering a bit too still? But you are out of the deep dark woods, right?”
Oh yes indeed I am. I would say that the peaks and troughs are much smaller, like smallish bumps compared with the mountains and valleys I experienced in the past. But, like I said, always a little too emotional where the LO is concerned. (Never even called him “xLO” yet). However I will see him f2f fairly soon and I feel that this will tell me a lot about my progress.
Limerence is like an emotional dis-regulation for me. That’s why I think it is hard to be friends… although you managed it with LO2, so you are the expert.
Wish you well for the rest of this week. let’s try to enjoy Summer while we can, eh? Only comes round once a year …… 🙂
🔥 🍊 🍷,
I could not help second 🐝 🧙♀️’s assessment on your current mental state. Prior friendship with xLO might have become an obstacle here for your total healing from LE. I’m sorry for what you’ve repeatedly felt and is still feeling.
One more repeat of my old point: it’s EXPECTATION that brings pains, and will ALWAYS. If our mind is prepared /truly ready to accept any unexpected/unwanted, then it will not feel surprised/painful when unexpected/unwanted actually arrives. Please think patiently in your situation, what’s within your mental control, and what’s not…
I wish you feeling better soon…. 🫂
Hi Snow,
„If our mind is prepared /truly ready to accept any unexpected/unwanted, then it will not feel surprised/painful when unexpected/unwanted actually arrives. “
I‘m sure you are right on a general philosophical level, but please show me the person in my acquaintance who reached that state? It‘s an admirable goal but as I know I won’t reach it now it’s a bit futile to think that that would be the solution.
Thanks for your kind words, it’s really a burden to have had friendship and limerence mixed up and now trying to distill the true friendship feelings (or find out if they are still there or not).
How are you doing? I haven’t kept up with posts..
🔥 🍊 🍷,
“please show me the person in my acquaintance who reached that state?“
Aren’t you talking to one now?
Thank you for asking, I’m continuously feeling “peachy” and doing better everyday, even just a tiny bit better. Practicing a Stoical mind is indeed a big challenge at any given time, especially when you are super busy at work and physically tired afterwards.
Please keep trying the impossible in your situation, because it would ultimately bring you to your desired contentment and peace. If you need to pause the friendship for a while, then do so after the trip. Friendship can be rebuilt even if with a true neurodivergent.
🫂
Snow,
„Aren’t you talking to one now?“
Hmm I don’t think so actually. Completely unfazed and unpained by any unexpected stuff that might crop up? I don’t thing many human beings are like that, if they are, they are already very otherworldly. Sorry, I might be wrong here, but have you really reached that Buddha-like enlightened state?
Otherwise you are bang right with your approach of course, as I already know and try to battle my way through to it by diverse meanderings.
And I am by no means mad at you as you said in some recent post ;)for saying I’m still in residues of limerence, because it depends on the definition. I do agree, it‘s still limerence shadows I’m walking in, but for me it’s still „X“ because I really think I’m out of that heady, obsessed state that defines acute limerence for me. He could leave now forever and I wouldn’t mind much, and when he‘s not there like he is now, my mind isn’t occupied with him.
I feel better today because spoke a bit to him, I think part of the problem is that he simply reminds me of the difficult limerent days, so I have a reflex of avoidance or pain, but if I communicate with him a bit more normally, I get used to him being there and it all levels a bit.
Today I thought I could relax a bit and be friendly and all will slide back to more normal. Could be that we manage to get to that state on the trip.
🔥 🍊 🍷,
“but now I’d like to get rid of resentment as the last residue of limerence.”
Yes, that’s where my definition of residual limerence lays. If completely out of limerence, there would be no “resentment” (—you are having) or “subtle/unnamed longing” (—I was having up to April 2, I was out of acute LE more than 2 years ago). It was impossible to say this until I truly felt/feel what “indifference is in my head less than two months ago.
“but have you really reached that Buddha-like enlightened state?”
No, not “completely unfazed” yet. I was in 30-50% of Buddhistic state, let’s say up to a couple of weeks ago; but now I’m in 60-80% zone, through the unexpected tests in reality and LwL…. I don’t think I ever want to be in 100% of its state and will choose to use it only to certain matters — ones totally out of my control. Still need to keep some passion for friendship or future romance.
Glad to hear that you’re feeling better today. Please try NOT to have any expectation and just let it play out during the trip. I support your mental approach to “get rid of resentment as the last residual limerence.”
I can’t tell whether you could have the old or renewed friendship with him, but whatever you choose to do, having more understanding and compassion for him would make YOURSELF better. After all, you had 10 years of steady friendship, regardless how you are (re)defining it now after this annoying LE.
🫂
Hi Snow,
„I can’t tell whether you could have the old or renewed friendship with him,“
when I read your message this morning bleary-eyed and half-awake (I’m complete exhausted and in high-cortisol-state for days), I was suddenly inspired by your words to a new approach- maybe I should just completely start from zero, try to see it as if I would approach a new friendship without all the ballast of limerence or ten year friendship, see the person with new eyes and „judge“ him (not in a negative way, I mean get to know how he is) newly.
Maybe it’s not entirely possible, of course, but maybe the attempt might help to take nothing for granted as you would with an unknown person, and just be as polite and un-grudging as I would be.
But ‘m actually that exhausted that I fear I’ll get sick before the trip. Maybe a fourteen hour flight next to a coughing and suffering me will end this friendship for him anyway;)
Thanks for that inspiration,
Buddha- Snow!!
Snow and csc,
on the altercation about when to call someone XLO or not, that’s absolutely up to each person and their definition of limerence. Also, it can help to call LO XLO prematurely just to force into the mind that this must be over. It falls into the category mind games, but they sometimes help, like this experiment where people get into a better mood when they physically put in a smile.
Hi @Mila
“He basically always follows my lead and a bit less.”
When I read this, I read…you put in effort, and he reciprocates, but it’s just not working for you.
“I really had a tough week , still ongoing. No words of compassion or encouragement from him”
I mean, you say he is a friend. But what kind of friend does that? *Is* that a friend? I mean, is that your definition of one (bc that’s the only definition that matters)…
I’m really in awe of all the effort you give this situation…it is so hard to have a work LO, even one you don’t see often — and it must take a lot of strength to hear about LO and how great he is to work with, knowing your limerence is in play, etc.
You say he is a “great person” but…great to whom? Great to the other people at work, in their opinion? …TBH it doesn’t seem like you think he’s actually that great…occasionally yes he is. But not consistently.
You can be a good person, forgive someone else, but still keep your distance. You are not shunning anyone, you’re not talking crap about them to others, you’re not snubbing them. You’re just doing other things, as is your right. You are protecting your sanity. And they have the agency to turn around and try to contact you, if they wish! They can take action, if they wish! It’s not all up to you…to keep this going….
It is ok for this relationship just not to work for you. And it is ok for it just not to work, in general. There’s nothing wrong with you. Sometimes, it’s just not a fit, emotionally….between two people.
It is hard, and it’s painful and weird, I know. But, it is still ok.
I am so sorry for this…you are always so caring to others, and I am someone who has very strong boundaries around that…at least with friends. I know when it comes to an LE, that boundaries can get really, really challenging, though!
I hope your work trip with LO is not too crazy. I would definitely need to hit the spa for like a month after that kind of intensity!
Lastly…
“The problem is, I know how he is and cannot get myself to just accept it without resentment.”
I say, let yourself resent. It won’t be permanent, but it might be worth going through it, and not liking how you feel for a bit, so you can accept how he is and detach.
csc
csc 🤖,
Mila’s LO was her good friend for 10 years prior to the LE, and he is a neurodivergent of some kind. So common social rules do not “apply” to him; expecting more than applicable here would only bring one pains.
To keep prior-friendship while trying to kill an entangled LE is the most challenge task. LaR knows it well, too.
By the way, you can’t call your LO a xLO yet, he’s still in your head just about everyday, although you’ve gone NC.
Keep feeling stronger in your LE-liberating journey…
i can call my lo xlo. i can call him whatever i like.
AND
you can call your lo xlo, lo2, lo 4.5, a combination of emojis, you can call him what you need to.
i would prefer you did not police my language, nor my replies to others.
Csc,
Sorry that I seemed to have offended you, which was not my intention.
I don’t think I’ve policed anyone’s posts here, but thought a clear clarification of LO or xLO would help our mind to know where it is, which assists healing.
But I’ll keep my mouth shot in your LE journey. Best luck!
“trying to kill an entangled LE is the most challenging task. LaR knows it well, too.”
I’m chugging my 🚜 over to this conversation, as this “can we be friends with our xLO?” as a topic is like intellectual crack to me, as ❄️ (who has listened to me incredibly patiently as I have gone round loops with it) knows very well.
For people newer to the stories, Mila and I were like LwL soulmates in the belief we wanted to be friends with our LOs after limerence, and could do it. About a year ago we were talking about this quite a lot.
I think it does need both people to be on the same page and both to be prepared to compromise a bit. I believe my xLO can and wants to key in to what it takes to sustain an appropriate friendship with me. Just when I thought that might not be the case a while ago, she came up with words and actions to prove it untrue. I am not sure Mila’s xLO is quite capable of the same, as Snow has alluded to. So the situations are different – “it takes two to tango”.
However, I have also had to compromise. I validated xLO a lot because of my limerence and gave her a lot of my time and ‘ear’. I have realised after DoH and the intense mourning period, that I can’t expect her to continue to be my friend if I withdraw that role (that I set myself right up for) totally. But nor should I do it when I don’t want to, or if it makes me uncomfortable for any reason. So I now try to validate much less often (than when limerent), but more meaningfully when I do.
Our limerence also builds our LOs up to be things they’re not – to amplify the good and downplay the bad. Our LOs did not ask for this treatment or for this unrealistic expectation to be put on them – they are just people, flawed like all of us.
I don’t know if that makes sense or, Mila, if that gives you anything you can work with.
We sort of build expectations of ourselves with the LO. We ‘did it’ due to limerence. But the LO doesn’t fully know that – just that ‘we did it’. If people are serious about being friends with the xLO then we have to ease them out of that while we find a new normal.
Qualification – I have never been sure I would succeed with this, and still am not. A month ago I was sure I wouldn’t, but now I am in a better place. Something can click and it can change. Don’t give up Mila, but only pursue what you’re comfortable to at any given time, and see how it plays out. All the stresses of work are bound to be building it all up more too, as others have said.
🫂
thank you snow,
i appreciate what you are saying. i understand that i may have read what you said in the wrong way.
you probably meant it more that it is ok he is still on my mind, and i should not try to force the “x”….you were likely not trying to come down on me for using the wrong terminology.
i am very sensitive right now and i apologize if i did not understand what you were saying. i believe i was indeed mistaken.
csc
Csc🤖,
I appreciate your apology. I knew you were in a very sensitive shape. I’m also sorry that I did not clarify what I really meant the first time I cut in your response to Mila.
As an ESL speaker, I’d be last person in LwL to pick on anyone’s English terminology; myself has to look up new word(s) in EVERY single post I read (I don’t read all of them), which serves as my continuous ESL learning. 👍
Secondly, if I speak or cut into some conversations, usually I want to add something from a psychological (health) perspective, (never from moralistic aspects — so judgmental!) which would benefit posters involved, imp.
Thirdly, in your particular post to Mila, I also wanted to save both of your time and energy to tell/repeat/analyze Mila’s XLo’s possible neurodivergent condition and his consequential behaviors in terms of dealing with Mila.
My experiences were/are: many (not all) neurodivergent get confused by our socially common senses/expectations, and we get confused by their singular/“distorted” views/ behaviors. Both sides confuse and get confused by each other. Thus endless misinterpretations, unnecessary offends and hurts are taken on both sides, sadly; without a professional as a mediator/educator, both sides don’t know/understand why and how.
The term xLO and LO would make psychological differences in the mind, thus affect one’s expectations and healing. Let’s use Covid to allude LE.
When covid is totally over, there should be covid symptoms free — no more runny nose, coughing, chest pains, muscle sores, fatigue, and sleepiness… But those symptoms may linger and last for a while (depending on each person’s health conditions) during the Covid residual period.
1. If we accept that the covid is NOT over yet, then we would NOT feel agitated/disappointed when those symptoms continued and recurred.
2. If we insist covid is over (sometimes after the test become negative) and those symptoms should NOT be there, but those symptoms would not go away or reappear, thus we get vexed even more.
The same principle applies to limerence, which takes from 6 months to 6 decades to recover based on DrL’s data. I agree with one definition of LE/LO — as long as LO still lives rent free in limerent’s head (let’s say 50% of time) and cause some kind of emotional disturbance (emotional colors), then the said LE/LO is not x LE/LO yet, which is totally OK.
Accepting LE is not over will lower one’s expectation of LE recovery speed and make us not to get so upset about those recurring/repeating LE symptoms and setbacks… why do you push yourself so hard to recover the toughest behavior “addiction” that cannot be recovered fast both in theory and practice?
Would you get upset if you expect/accept you will have a runny nose tomorrow since you know your cold is not over yet?
Hi csc and JMmo, since you have similar approach,
Thanks for your kind words! My XLO is a bit special, as Snow rightly points out. I diagnosed him as neurodivergent, and many friends agree that he seems a bit on that spectrum, I don’t know if it occurred to him himself.
He was always like that, and we are friends for about ten years, and it never bothered me too much that he isn’t able to express much warmth with words or hugs etc, he just wasn’t important enough in my life.
When he left work (we connected mostly because we work very well together) we suddenly got much closer out of sudden anxiety to lose each other, and that’s when limerence started.
He is like he is and always has been, and I have to decide, now that limerence ended, if that’s enough for a friendship for me or not. It’s hard to get back to that more indifferent, not so close state of friendship we had for ten years, since our contact patterns and importance for each other changed during limerence. I dialed contact down a lot.
It was necessary for me to feel resentment about his lack of warmth and expression to get rid of limerence , but now I’d like to get rid of resentment as the last residue of limerence.
You two are rightfully in a phase where resentment is a tool and maybe necessary, but I‘m beyond that.
For me, the question is which view is right: if I lose this friendship, I let limerence destroy it which is a shame,
Or: limerence gilded this person, and he has actually shown when we got close and friendship was tested, that he cannot be a true friend, so now the gold is gone, I can see that this friendship is not really worth it?
I would absolutely side with you encouraging my resentment if I were in another phase. You represent the voice in me that says, he‘s not really worth it, he isn’t a true friend, so why do you keep trying. Ok, he might not be able to be any other way, but I still can say that that’s simply not enough for a true friendship for me.
But I‘m not sure it’s the right way to go. I feel milder today and would like to feel benign towards him and enjoy his company and nothing more.
LaR,
„Our limerence also builds our LOs up to be things they’re not – to amplify the good and downplay the bad. Our LOs did not ask for this treatment or for this unrealistic expectation to be put on them – they are just people, flawed like all of us.
I don’t know if that makes sense or, Mila, if that gives you anything you can work with.
We sort of build expectations of ourselves with the LO. We ‘did it’ due to limerence. But the LO doesn’t fully know that – just that ‘we did it’. If people are serious about being friends with the xLO then we have to ease them out of that while we find a new normal.“
Bang right here, too, thank you, LaR!
It’s just that my XLO really is a bit exasperating in some friendship issues, not like yours.
But it’s still true. Today I thought I could get back to that more indifferent, benign state of liking each other that we had. There’s also an advantage in him following my lead all the time and being insensitive to little changes of temperature, I can allow myself a lot more vacillation and trying out distance and coming closer without him getting enough of me and ending the friendship himself.
Somehow today feels as if resentment burnt itself out a little and I can like him again. That would be nice for the trip. Shouldn’t get too much though, there’s still a residue of fear that limerence might creep back through old neuronal paths.
Is it too revealing to ask how contact looks like at the moment for you? Is it only through work or do you meet outside of work sometimes or text?
Hi Mila
When I read your account of your LO, I’m reminded of so much of the wisdom that you have given me . Whilst I am not suggesting that your LO has the same narc tendencies as mine, there are some bits of his behaviour which seem self-centred and almost bloody ignorant.
I wouldn’t mind betting that if it wasn’t for good ol’ limerence, you may not even give this person the time of day. I know that sounds obvious, but reminding yourself of that may help to centre you.
Like me, you work with LO. It does make it more complicated, but I think all the more reason to go with “the second bad view of him”. Quite apart from anything else, it’s not as if he’s totally undeserving of it. I’ve also found that resentment acts as a protective barrier which keeps LO thoughts from becoming good ones and infiltrating your defences . Go ahead and resent him: again, he’s not totally innocent here.
I hope the business trip goes well. Remember your Limerence friends are here to support you whilst you’re away.
Best wishes
Jmmo x
Just me,
In my experiences, people with neurodivergence can behave like a Narc, but they are not one.
Having followed Mila’s story longer than you, I don’t think her LO is a narc, based on her description. But sometimes, Mila expected more than he was ABLE to give, imp.
(I worked before with Asperger kids and my xSO had mild Asperger — my frustration had no end…).
❄️
Apologies if I gave the impression that I thought he was. No, I don’t. I just think that his behaviour isn’t great towards her, and that Mila would be justified in feeling resentment.
Mila – apologies if I didn’t explain myself correctly.
Jmmo
Just me,
No apologies needed from me at all!
I just thought in Mila’s case, it’s so difficult to take either all “good” or “bad” views of LO’s behaviors, if he’s indeed a neurodivergent as Mila suspects.
Even if one explains to him why his certain behaviors have offended Mila, he may not understand it. Some neurodivergent tend to have “fixed” mindset.
You’re right that after all Mila knows him best, and will figure out of ways to reduce her vexation in working with him during this unavoidable business trip.
🤝
Thank you ❄️. I did not know that about him. That does change the dynamic a bit.
However, I will defend Mila’s right (as do you) to be vexed with him in order to protect herself.
Thanks for the clarification x
JMMO ⛺️,
I paused on the word you used, “right” (“to be vexed”) and wanted to say what we are dealing with here is not “right” issue.
Since almost all our LE emotions occur in our head, not acted on in reality, we have a ‘right’ to feel anything and express them here, protected and encouraged by DrL (despite thought police still exists), as long as we don’t viciously attack our fellow limerents— everyone here lived or is living their respective limerence experiences, which all include unwanted, hurtful emotions.
The issue here is: does those “rightful”/entitled emotions help us progress our healing or set it back while they are repeated endlessly or “indulged”? Certain amount of recurring and repetitions of any limerence emotions are expected and normal, but if those emotions spin around and around in months or in years, then that LE mind is stuck in them, then what do helping-hands do? Just watch or cut in to give some tough love or try to yank that mind out, like what LaR just did to csc?
If truly accepting your LO is a neurodivergent, would you keep getting upset? Is it helpful to your mind or is it futile?
Hi everyone,
You are all so sweet and helpful. It’s so funny how each one of you represents another voice in my head, with different views, your replies are really an exact copy of my brain.
I‘m on a mini trip before the main trip where XLo isn’t involved, am a bit drunk and exhausted and not capable of answering properly. But be assured that each view is a good and valid one, which is actually the problem of the situation.
I met LO2 and family which was wonderful, and had on the whole a very successful mini trip.
Will see XLO tomorrow (although I‘m affected by the situation a lot, it’s still nothing like limerence. Of course the root of the problem is the past limerence, but I still can say that I’m not limerent anymore) and still no clue how to behave. I will study your replies tomorrow on the way back and ruminate about it!
Thank you all lovely people! You are really a gift and blessing.
Snow
I’m interested in your thoughts in regards to this conversation I have in regards to Stoicism and limerence in this conversation I am having with this content creator on this particular youtube video. The video itself is optional. I’m just wondering if I am going in the right direction.
https://youtu.be/9QBcjsLSdLQ?si=-J8b5TFLHlheUcHz
Adam 🥃,
Did you spot that I’was dozing off due to boredom or mild depression, thus throw me a challenging question and a mind-spinning Stoic video clip? Now I need to write an thesis just to attempt to answer your curiosity… ☺️
1. On the surface, Stoicism and Limerence is like the North and South Pole, they can’t exist on the same page. But Stoicism works on the mind with rationality, willpower, and disciplines. Limerence works on one’s neural system through DNA wiring and beyond logic and reasoning. So once slipped into the altered state of Limerence mind, Stoicism loses. By then, one can control one’s actions at most, but one can’t control one’s sufferings of LE’s highs and lows. Still Stoical mind would make those highs and lows less intense.
2. However, between Glimmer and Limerence, one could use Stoical mind to prevent from slipping into LE. Combined with Tibetan Buddhism, Limerents could even enjoy 1st and 2nd stage of LE (if someone insists there are 5 stages in LE) without slipping into 3rd, 4th, 5th stage, which I did in the first 4 year of my LE (2017-2021).
3. Only in 2019, I began systematically studying and practicing a little of Stoicism. If knowing it earlier before 2017, I could have suffered even less the LE lows. I did go to NC with little pain and a full acceptance of the life mystery in 2020 (no idea about LE), but the Sensor xLO pulled me back in emails during the lockdown, as my curiosity sensed it would happen.
4. With the constant real-life, Stoical training given freely in LwL and in my LE, I’ve become a 95% Stoic and could recover from un(expected) storms in the life from 72-120 hours. Ghostly or not, LwL is a small realistic world, only without our face and realistic identity. Our mind and heart are hanging here almost naked, exposed to be challenged (only mine tossed and hammered), to learn, reshape, renew, and even transform. Now, without wanting, without willing, and without expecting, I’m Totally out of limerence, isn’t marvelous or even ‘MAGICAL”??
5. I watched twice the Stoic clip you linked and like very much creator’s views on compliments, he knows modern women’s psychology well. (At least mine). And it’s a quite Stoic approach for the male character to compliment in those 3-4 ways, if he really means what he says and is ready to answer her questions/challenges upon hearing those compliments —
A. “I admire how you think.”
❄️: Thank you. In what ways you like it, in which matters/arenas?
(ET said 2-3 times unconvincingly, “I’ll always admire you…” in what ways? Never specified — the empty flattery!)
B. “You make people around you better”
❄️: 1. Really? How did/could I make others’ life better, except themselves?” (No one can truly change another but only influence/assist others to make their own wished positive changes. )
2. that’s a bit judgmental. Based on whose standards, it’s better or worse, on the speaker’s moral measuring stick?
3. personally I’d rather to hear, “you make people around you more inquisitive about life, their life and life in general.”
C. “There’s something about you I can’t explain. “
❄️: 😊 😶
D. “I feel more grounded around you.”
❄️: Thank you. In what ways?
Adam, I’m not trying to be fussy here, just a professional & personal habit of making sure that compliments are sincere and substantial. They mean so much more than those superficial picking-up lines.…
Thank you for the link! 🍻
Good answers Snow..
Good evening to you too Brother Adam..
I’ll drink to that.. 🍻
MJ 💦,
I’m glad that you agree a bit with my answers; Adam 🥃 is a bit of bored or sleepy tonight, so he threw me some wakeup calls…
I hope your LE pains over your LO somehow reduces over time, now that you fully realize she’s just an eternal unreachable Goddess walking in your orbit… Can you calmly live with the fact while still looking around for a workable, romantic relationship?
🍻 to you 💦 and 🥃! Hope you have a better sleep tonight 😴
“Can you calmly live with the fact while still looking around for a workable, romantic relationship?”
@Snow,
Thank you for well wishes.. Yes I think I can. I’m working on it.. 🙂
Snow
Thank you for spending the time to answer with such detail. I am finally finding a peace in this ending. I favored a song in limerence where it said “loving you is the prison that is killing me” because it did indeed feel like that. But real love shouldn’t. I have finally accepted that my love for them is not pertinent to their being in my life. My love for them two ladies will always be in my heart. And that is bringing me peace finally. I very much appreciate his (youtuber) and your help in this stoic journey Snow. Now my tears can be not, that they are gone, but that they were a chapter in my life that I will never forget. Thank you Snow.
MJ
Good to see you brother. Hopefully one day we can indeed have that drink together. We can take turns buying rounds and then Momma can drive us home. 🙂
Adam 🥃,
It’s such a good news that YOU have finally freed yourself from “the prison” of limerence love and found that peace at last! !
It has not been easy as we all witnessed, but you’ve done it. Congratulations!
Feeling peace is a vital indication that we are out of the limerence detour and come back to our healthy journey, respectively. As time passes each day, you will find settling peace more and more, as I’m feeling.
When you invite MJ for the drink, please don’t forget me! LaR 🚜 will serve us the best in L’Amoors’ menu!
I was curious and checked the link… Love that AI content creator! Especially when he/she/they/it says: “Here’s a thoughtful and respectful reply that adds value while engaging the commenter: Your reflection shows a deep level of emotional…”
I’m glad Dr L still appears to be a human 😜
🍨 ,
How is going with your MD? I hope it’s going well in your hoped direction… Have you gotten to know him better? Feeling better with more interactions?
I’m doing pretty well, making up all the sleeps I’ve lost in the past 8 years during limerence, my body is so appreciating the recent much longer deep-stage and REM sleeps (still have vivid mild dreams). Then, the mind becomes more serene at ease.
To be honest with you (like I told Adam last night), I felt somewhat bored nowadays without much anxiety-triggering issues in my reality. I’m reading a very touching, published memoir my swimming pool acquaintance writes about their last days before his wife (my 14-year swimming pool friend a decade ago) died of lung cancer. There is so much love in their artistic, inspirational, and yet ordinary life.
My semester ends after this Wednesday.
🫂
Hi 🍅
Thanks for asking! It’s going well with the mind reader. (Caution for others who don’t enjoy reading about mushy romantic stuff: stop here.) I’ve found a true romantic who showers me with affection. I really don’t know what I’ve done to deserve it. He acknowledges that he might be a bit much, but I’m enjoying it. I get the kisses, the romantic songs chosen and played for me, and recently a personally prepared, high-end-restaurant-quality three course meal. Our other dates have been ridiculously romantic as well (cherry blossom parks, boat rides, etc. I actually chose them, I didn’t realise they would be so romantic 🤷🏼♀️). And no, I’m not limerent. I rarely am when they’re chasing me. But I am enjoying feeling like a teenager again.
Besides that, we’ve gotten to know each other more and found quite a few things in common, although in some ways we are opposites. But I’ve managed to make a relationship with similar opposites work before.
That is wonderful that you are getting more sleep. It really makes a huge difference in mood and energy level. I empathise with the need for more motivation and excitement. Nothing quite seems to compare with limerence. But hopefully, once your brain “forgets” the limerent highs, you’ll find more sustainable modes of motivation.
Do you have plans for your long(?) break after semester ends?
🍨,
I’m so happy and touched (my eyes got a bit moisture) for your ongoing romance. Enjoy every minute and every bit of it!
Having something opposite is very common and natural, no two human beings alike, even twins. And if two are very like, I think I’d feel bored and death-like — my curiosity would be starved to death! In idealized Aristotle friendship/relationship, both sides are teachers and students to each other; both learn from each other and grow/mature together. When you get a chance, tell us what you’ve learned from your MR’s differences, so we could learn as well through your loving and discerning eyes.
My brain has forgotten the latest LE highs since I was in its ember stage for the past two years. So when the last ember was extinguished last month, I literally felt a load of something was gone/lifted out of my mind — that life-time, mysterious longing! I could not ever imagined that longing could go away…
Then my mental OCD and traveling excitement took over my mind for over a month… now it’s all quiet down and serene, not the same gloomy/depressed as pre-limerence time. As I told 🚜 earlier, after coming out of LE it won’t feel the same as prior-limerence time. How did you feel since you just came out of your xLO (and TO?) not long ago?
I have 3 full months vacation, without any specific plans (aside from a bit tutoring); can you imagine my freedom! I will read more books waiting in my kindle and want to pick up some of my long-waited pending writing projects; only creative writing of any kind makes me truly energized and fulfilled. Now without that mysterious longing, my stories will change their tones, hopefully more objective and less subconsciously triggering.
Please keep me/us posted about your romance development. LwL needs more cheerful news like yours 🌺!
csc
Just wondering how you are, my dear BLP??
Thinking of you
Jmmo xx
hi @jmmo
thank you for checking. i just had a busy weekend, and a busy friday last week. how are you? still in fury mode? …however you are, i hope you’re ok.
i am all right, but i will admit, i *miss* xlo. it comes and goes. i know i am not detached and some might say i should not be graduating to having an xlo, but i must write it that way, because i have to accept i will never see him again.
he was a really fun person. i really liked interacting with him. even now, there are so many things i’m doing and thinking that i know he would really enjoy…he always was…i guess…excited for me, if i was doing something new. he was quite supportive and encouraging.
i wish he was a worse person. i wish i could hate him, see him as a player, something. but, all i can come to is that this is just…a very, very sad thing that has happened to me. i still feel so sad about it. not even that i can’t be romantically involved with him. it’s more…that i can’t know him at all. it would be too hard for me.
and, by cutting it totally off (i am still convinced that was the action i needed to take at the time, and forgive myself for it)…i have closed the door. i am not ready to reconnect to him, nor should i. i don’t feel guilty for hurting him. i just miss him.
it was all so ambiguous. he was the king of mixed messsages. it is totally possible he knew i was besotted, but just didn’t want to hurt me. he was a very kind person.
it makes me want to cry just typing it.
honestly, jmmo, i feel almost like i’m going backwards. i am making progress in some areas of my life, but, my sadness over this is persistent. i have no idea how long it will last and that is hard.
i am also feeling very distanced from my so. it is like…we are strangers. we love each other, and have been responsible partners. he is also a lovely person. but…and i don’t know how else to put this…it seems to me that our energies no longer match. we want different things in fundamental ways, we communicate in different ways, it is hard to connect…and personally, i am so spent, and at a crossroads, seemingly, in my life…i do not think i have the will to address it.
it’s all a lot. but i feel i must be patient, and just let things happen. i am not going to force anything. all i can come to about things is that i must do the best i can, and also take my time.
sigh. jmmo. i am definitely drifting on the high plains of my life. i suppose this happens to many people near 50. i know i am not alone. in a way, i am trying to see it as a good thing. i would not want to go through my life without hearing my own inner voice…i know this is a privelege to have this dialog with myself right now. but, it is all so new, and i am being more honest about my life than i have been at a long time.
your support and friendship…i appreciate you so much. it means a lot that you care. i care about you, too. i’m going to catch up on the various posts this afternoon. 🙂
hugs
csc
Dear csc
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I hope that your weekend was busy in a pleasant way! How is the yoga going?
I am doing ok, thank you. I’m still rather up and down. The fury seems to have subsided a little, which I’m glad about as I’m not that kind of person. I am however still bitter towards her and want nothing more to do with her. Not counting my week of leave, I have so far managed to totally avoid her for 2 weeks, even at work. I know the chance meeting will come, but when it does it will be eyes away and ice cold. I just cannot allow her to break my shield.
“i am all right, but i will admit, i *miss* xlo. it comes and goes. i know i am not detached and some might say i should not be graduating to having an xlo, but i must write it that way”. I too have been debating whether or not I can consign my LO to the x-category. I’m certainly not Limerent for her anymore. I think that you can call him whatever you want. If that is going to help you to move on, then I say you do it. It’s your experience – you have the right!
“i wish he was a worse person. i wish i could hate him, see him as a player, something. but, all i can come to is that this is just…a very, very sad thing that has happened to me.” Dearest csc, it makes it so much harder when they are decent people. I can see that he gave you something and that is what you are so understandably grieving for. And that is ok. Allow yourself to feel it. Don’t feel guilty or like this shouldn’t be happening. I note your comment about your relationship with your SO. May I ask, are you married? You don’t have to answer that, I am just curious.
The fact that you are not fulfilled in your current relationship (I hope that I have understood correctly) is bound to make your removal from LO even more painful. But I can assure you from experience, that whatever sorting out you feel that your life needs, it would not happen with your xLO in view. They distort our view, muddy our thinking, create urges and make their grass greener. But it’s all an illusion.
“ i don’t know how else to put this…it seems to me that our energies no longer match.” May I be so bold as to suggest that you don’t have any energy? It’s going to be very hard for you to align your energy to SO when you are feeling deflated. You say you can’t save dealing with it currently. Then don’t. There’s no pressure. You need to be able to recover from your loss before you can expect yourself to deal with that. Doing so in your current form would be doing you both a huge disservice.
“i know this is a privelege to have this dialog with myself right now. but, it is all so new, and i am being more honest about my life than i have been at a long time.” I wonder if that is at least contributing to this being so painful for you? It’s like a self-therapy you’re doing, and the uncovering that can occur can be painful as you know. I am so proud of you for doing it. It is so brave. I am doing it, but in therapy. I’m not brave enough to have that conversation with myself. I admire you so much, and is typical of this incredible friend that I am getting to know more. Please dear csc, do not underestimate the power of what you are doing.
Finally, I know that you care. It has meant so much to me, and continues to. Thank you. I do care about you, and I send virtual hugs and warmth over to you. We will still get to the point where we reflect on our journeys in the past tense. Neither of us are there yet, but we’re heading that way. The road continues to stretch ahead of us, but we are driving it – looking at the scenery (good and bad) and knowing that we will reach our destination. Because you and I are good people.
Do keep letting me know how you are. And remember that your BLP is thinking of you.
Hugs and a shoulder
Jmmo xx
Csc (and Jmmo)
Sorry to butt in on your chat but I needed a coffee.
The support you are giving each other is wonderful. Since you’ve always both been very kind to me, I want to just interject with a few points for Csc here.
“my sadness over this is persistent. i have no idea how long it will last and that is hard.”
Don’t try and hurry it or fight it csc, just ‘hold’ however it feels at the time. It will pass in its own time. I know it is so hard but I have faith in you. Fighting it prolongs it.
“i wish he was a worse person. i wish i could hate him, see him as a player, something.” … “he was the king of mixed messsages”
Tougher love coming here, but it was the same tough love that all my strongest LwL allies gave me, and it helped. This above part is futile. You won’t know and can’t know what he felt for sure. It honestly doesn’t matter (I am sorry to say it so bluntly). All that matters, csc, is that *he wasn’t right for you at this point*. Hold the course. Limerence recovery has ups and downs. A few weeks ago it seemed you were ahead of me and helping me out of the hole. Virtual ‘arm up’ now offered in return.
“i feel almost like i’m going backwards”
They are steps backwards, if they are that, in order to take steps forwards. I could be miles off kilter with this, but you have taken on a whole load of new stuff in order to feel better. Have you crammed a bit much in and just need to acknowledge the fatigue that this stage creates, and give into it and retreat at times? And return to some of those ‘stage 1’ bits on your list to me (letting yourself sleep and eat well) on the down days?
“it seems to me that our energies no longer match”
I have picked up from other posts what you think you might need to do about this. We’ll be here all the way to support if that transpires. But first prioritise yourself – the ‘grounding’ process from the LE, as you have put it before. Then you can feel more certain and start dealing with the other matters.
You have done loads of fantastic work to get this far – don’t you forget it. I am sorry there are bumps in the road but you’ve been brave to get this far and just need to give yourself the time to come out of this – a bit like recovering from shock.
Here for you Csc. Hugs 🫂
LaR
Never worry about joining our chats my friend, you are always more than welcome.
I think you make some great points which csc will consider. Your additional
Perspective is fantastic and I agree with everything you’ve said. I’m sure that our dear friend will appreciate your views instead of just mine all the time.
csc – what we are both saying here is that you are much stronger than you think. We’ve seen it in your previous posts. You know that we are here for you – no matter what.
Thanks again LaR
Jmmo
hi @jmmo and LaR
thank you both, kindly. from your words and wisdom, i can tell you genuinely care, and understand.
yes, @LaR i think i do need to back to phase 1, basic self care. sleep, light exercise, eating right, quiet time, etc. it’s not that i feel i’ve overstimulated myself, exactly, for i am excited about some of the new things i am doing…it’s more that i need unexpected room for these new sad feelings. i was not expecting them to be so virulent at this stage (2 months in).
i don’t spend all day crying, etc. but, as i walk around, i feel at sea, much of the time. i don’t know if you have seen the movie Blue (part of the French film series Blue, White, Red) but, I feel a bit like Juliette Binoche’s character in that film. I should watch it again, just to appreciate how accurate her performance is at depicting grief.
you both are very kind and caring to boost me up a bit right now. truly, i was feeling much better the last couple of weeks, that’s why this is so daunting. i understand, though, not a setback. part of it. thank you LaR for reminding me of that.
there is no danger of me dropping my NC commitment. maybe that is the reason these feelings are surfacing, there is nothing there, no rumination, no guessing, no uncertainty, no distraction, and no hope….to prevent them. is that it? LaR…is *this* my DOH? just a long, drawn-out one? idk.
and LaR I hear your point that I will never know. never know why, what, or anything. in a way, that knowledge might kill me, i am too sensitive right now to face any of it. i will just have to settle into this…this whatever-it-is.
jmmo and LaR, thank you, from the bottom of my poor limerence-cracked heart. you both, and everyone here…thank goodness for you.
csc
Csc,
Thanks for all that, and my pleasure.
Keep doing what you do enjoy while striving for balance and taking each day as it comes.
I am no neuroscientist, and we would probably need the Good Doctor to explain properly how DoH works. (Maybe he has written a post about it).
Here is where I had my best attempt, debating it with L.E., to explain why I think there are two deaths of hope that have to happen:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/a-comprehensive-guide-to-limerence-recovery/#comment-98745
I think that acceptance and being totally out of the conflict come even later. I’m not there yet.
thank you @jmmo
you are right. i am often exhausted. tired of feeling like crap and trying to pull myself up. tired of myself!! i do have some support — i am not totally alone. but, yes, the fact that i have to go through all this crazy grief over some random guy i didn’t even have a romantic relationship with — a fantasy! i mean, seemingly, more grief than losing my own dad for chrissakes — only to recover a bit, then probably look towards ending a long-term-relationship (not married, but together longer than some marrieds i know!) …well, i feel like someone who is limping the latter half of a difficult marathon, knowing she’ll be told to get right up afterwards, and do an iron man.
i do feel i need a respite, for a bit. it’s all pretty daunting. but i just have to take it one day at a time. you’re right. just patience and time and ….sigh.
as for energy – i have asked myself that. the odd thing is, i do have energy – i have plenty when i am out of the house, and with other people. (yoga, other social activities)…i have so much energy for that stuff. so, that part of me is still in there.
it’s more that my so is very sedate. while that is ok, it’s more that he is not very outwardly enthusiastic about anything. it can be hard to tell if he *likes* anything – he doesn’t smile very much, doesn’t get excited, outwardly, about *anything*, and is pretty taciturn in general. i, on the other hand, seem to be getting MORE enthusiastic about life and fun, and nature, art, my city, people, all of it…so in that way, i feel we are diverging. i feel if i go out and do what excites me, to be who i feel i am…it necessitates leaving him at home. and then, when i get back, he is not enthusiastic…he’s just…there. nominally interacting with me. it just feels wrong. but, if i ask him to join me, he has a miserable time, or just seems to show no reaction at all. it’s hard.
anyway – i do need time to heal from le. so i’ll stick to it for a while –and try not to stress. just let things take their course, let the sadness happen, accept the mess..i don’t want the stress to give me stress, if you know what i mean.
thank you blp, yes, the scenery is going by– you are right. the windows are down and the stars are coming out…you may play your ELO if you wish! haha 🙂
hugs and thank you, always.
csc
ps. yoga is going well. it’s a lot of philosophy, so i am enjoying that aspect immensely. and, i love the people in my cohort. they’re wonderful.
@jmmo
…i do want to add that none of this is my so’s fault. i am just sharing his qualities, not trying to complain about him. my life is my own responsiblity, not his. i am just trying to paint the picture — not to blame him at all. he has been good to me. -csc
Hi everyone – especially my Limerence Family,
I have a small update. I’ve just been on a Teams meeting. Turned out LO was chairing. I was semi- prepared as she stands in sometimes. I kept my camera off.
It was the first time I had seen her face and heard her voice for 3 weeks, since she imposed herself on me at my office.
I won’t say that I don’t feel a little strange – but only a little. What I can report is that I felt nothing but mild disdain. And a little anger which spiked occasionally. But mainly indifference.
Currently I am even more convinced that I actually loathe her. I feel physical and emotional dislike for her. The further away she stays out of my way, the happier I will be.
I know this might feel awkward to those who have good feelings about their LO. I’m sorry, but I don’t. I don’t like the “hate” word, but I’m pretty close.
Thanks for allowing me to get that off my chest. I’m going to go for a walk.
Jmmo
⛺️,
You’re rightfully feeling great! I think you’re progressing a great deal towards removing LO from your head, despite you have to work with her! 👍
Thank you dear ❄️. I wouldn’t say I feel great. I’m feeling strange, bit angry, bit vengeful. I don’t know if it’s having seen/heard her (although not in person), or because these feelings aren’t comfortable for me, or both, I am pleased that there was no longing or regret. Anger is easier to deal with.
Thanks for your support. Your comment has encouraged me.
Plus – I’ve been awarded my own emoji! ⛺️
⛺️,
I did not mean you’re feeling “great”, I meant to say your feelings rightfully what you’re feeling and acknowledging them without judging them.
Please be prepared to feel all sorts of feelings down the rocky road of LE recovery. You’re in a very challenging position — had to work with possibly narc LO, so it’s natural and normal to be thrown off again and again and again…
Like LaR just said, your focus needs to be on your original contribution to this LE, without finding and removing roots of your present and past LE, you’re bound to slip into another one in the future.
I saw you used ⛺️ a couple of times during that farmland concert 10 days ago, so ⛺️ is patented to you from now on! 😊
❄️
Oh I see. Well in that case you’re absolutely right!
Thank you.
Yes I now own ⛺️!! 😂
JMMO,
At the moment, just let it out how you need to. You will have time to reflect and see if you still feel like that in the long run – and it’s fine if you do.
“I know this might feel awkward to those who have good feelings about their LO”
Not in my case. I recognise that my battle to get over limerence is my battle, yours is yours, and everyone else’s is their own. The circumstances behind these LEs is *so* uniquely different in each case. It’s like a little book of really varied short stories on here, united just by a common theme. We know what we’re united by, but what we can do for each other is to help each other cope with it in their own way, and gently challenge if they feel it necessary.
The only slight challenge I have for you is not to let your current visceral dislike of LO deflect from what reaching an understanding of what you did that might have contributed (in your own knowledge of it, I mean, not said out loud). Because you can learn from your contribution, to help yourself in the future. But we’ve discussed that before, and you said you’re on the case with that side too. So if it helps to let off steam about LO for now, this is absolutely a safe spot to do it as you know.
LaR
Thank you. And you’re absolutely right about my own responsibility. What I will reaffirm is that, as you know and we’re kind enough to say, I am both very mindful of my actions and working hard to address them, including therapy. Our LOs absolutely do not ask for this. However, some do not act as decent human beings when they know they can exploit one and one’s feelings. All that said, yes I have to stay mindful that I carry the ultimate responsibility.
Thanks mate
Yes – and huge step you have made to get into therapy. Bigger than I’ve made – LwL is my closest thing to therapy!
“However, some do not act as decent human beings when they know they can exploit one and one’s feelings.”
Very true. Different boats, same storm.
From now on, she is xLO. I feel no limerence, and haven’t for a few months. I had become trapped. What I do feel is abhorrence. Total and complete.
She can go rot.
⛺️,
Please allow me to express my idea of xLE: when one truly feels INDIFFERENCE, with neither positive or negative emotions towards xLO; and when one can calmly sit down to have a cup of coffee/tea without xLO, without the xLE resentful memories inserting/intruding itself in between; and when one can describe xLO with understanding and compassion.
Based on my definition, Mila is still a bit in her xLE, but she’ll get mad for me to say this.🤫 it’s just my opinion.
Verbal definition is not as important as how one truly feels inside. Also please check how much time your xLO is in your head, how long each time, and what emotional colors it brings…
“The opposite side of the love coin is indifference, not hate”.
Have a wonderful day/evening!
Series typo: “have a cup of coffee/tea With xLO”, with smile/comfort.
I pre-maturely declared my xLE was over (sept. 2023) two years before it is actually totally gone. Boy, what an addiction! 😓
Thank you ❄️
I dare say that you are right. I just don’t want to feel this…. whatever it is. But I know I will and I must: part of the process.
One thing I do truly hate is this addiction!
Thank you for your care and understanding x
hello and my apologies to all for this little “rant”?
I claimed a week or 2 ago to be “controlling” my cravings for my Friend. Seems to have been a bit of a self delusion… I am hurting now, needing to see her… just had a “pleasant” messaging chat with her this morning, on the surface normal enough… but still not enough, and I am unlikely to see her in person today.
I have hurt worse, but not recently.
And to be fair… if I was seeing her 24/7/365, that still may not be enough.
Although… I have come to see that I am pretty unworthy of being a friend to her, should be considered just a basic co-worker who goes on walks with her. I admit, I have some serious self esteem issues.
Just hurting this morning, and venting.
To NTL:
Good to hear from you. It’s always good to be able to be honest with yourself.
It’s also good that you come back and keep posting. Please remember you’re not alone. I am still reeling from a weird Mother’s Day with LO and his mother which I have described elsewhere. LO thought he was doing something nice for me, but I felt like he punched me in the face, then poured ice water over my head, then punched me in the face again.
He has no clue about any of this, of course, and I believe that telling him would make things worse.
Hello Norma….
Our LE’s are quite different, but we are comrades-in-pain, sadly
I did read your Post on the Mothers Day experience…. if I may say… it sounds like it was a bit surreal for you. And bitter and sweet.
And also, if I may say… I don’t think he has a clue about this, and telling him wouldn’t help.
I will say that although my Friend does indeed know much about how I crave her company, the entire Truth would likely make her uncomfortable.
I will say that if I was a LO to someone, I would probably be uncomfortable. It would be intense for a LO
To NTL:
Thank you for your reply. LO knows I have a crush on him, but I have never gone into detail or said anything about limerence.
He can see with his own eyes that I light up like a Christmas tree when I see him. I don’t think that going into any more detail would be wise.
Hi NTL,
I read a quote in a book by a recovered alcoholic about what it was like to be addicted. Her answer:
“As if there was not enough gin in all the world”
I’m sorry you’re hurting. I have been there, and it’s so hard. I am not fixated anymore, like you are, but, I am deeply sad that I have stepped away, and miss him. It has been 2 months NC. It has been really difficult and disorienting. Like you, I could not get enough — ever— of him.
Don’t be too hard on yourself. This is how it works with limerence. Most of us think we can control it, and come here to say “I will control it!” and then…we have trouble with that.
I don’t expect you to read my posts from the past, but, pretty sure they’re almost exactly like yours! Same trajectory….I’m sorry you are in pain. The process of figuring out it really is limerence is very very hard. You are not alone.
To CSC:
That is such a good quote. Thank you.
it is a good quote… sums this up nicely.
Hello CSC
Thanks for your helpful replies ( from in the trenches as it were )
I have read many of your previous posts. And yes I see in them some of the same trajectory.
Just finished a short 30 minute walk with my Friend… very pleasant and I cleared up some things with her ( I had put my arm around her on Friday as we walked in the rain, and she had offered me to come under her umbrella, and kind of felt I had intruded on he space ) I told her that I did it without thinking, and I just felt comfortable and natural doing it. We talked about it then, it only lasted a few moments, and we both agreed that it would look VERY bad if any of our coworkers saw it. She said that she didn’t feel her space invaded, and was fine with it… EXCEPT how it would look! So we cleared that up!
I also congratulated her on a Promotion at work, and her getting into the department she wanted. So she is happy, and that makes ME happy.
All in all, was very nice…. just… never enough. Oh well, thats a “me” problem. Just have to admit I am lying to myself. Under control-ish!
Never been addicted to anything before like this… new sympathy for people who are struggling with drugs, alcohol, and gambling etc issue.
yeah @Adam @norma @NTL
i love that quote. somehow, it so succinctly captures the addiction reality, but also…the strange, wistful sadness of not being able to ever quench it.
ha! i wish i had no idea what that quote was even about, tho!
oops and @NTL
…i’m just curious, if you think back, did you have low self-esteem BEFORE you met Friend? Because low self esteem is often blamed for limerence. But, more recently I have seen it said that limerence *leads to* low self-esteem.
I’m just asking because it’s possible you felt ok about yourself, but, this whole situation with friend has had some effects on how you perceive yourself…
of course, it’s totally possible low self esteem was there before, but, for me, it wasn’t…i was ok…til i met xlo…then, my self esteem truly bottomed out after about 5-6 months. And i went on in that state for the rest of the year…feeling like i couldn’t stand myself.
csc
CSC….
In general, and for most of my adult life… I am VERY confident and comfy inside my own skin. I just have rarely felt accepted as a friend with others… more like work buddies or acquaintances. Still I have / had good self esteem!
With my Friend, I have feel as a real friend with her. But I saw an Instagram she posted with her SO and friends all on a trip…. they looked so happy together… for some reason made me feel… well… like I could never be a friend with her like that ( huge age gap and lifestyle / money gap )… that I am just a work buddy. In my heart I think I am wrong, that we are good “Work Friends” and are pretty close… after all I get several nice intimate hours alone with her each week! But still… I am now also dealing with low self esteem… or as I now call it… the “correct ” level of esteem!
Seeing myself as ( correctly ) inferior to Her…. feeling bad about what my Dear Wife is dealing with, etc. I am not feeling too good about myself.
But, still craving / enjoying time with my Friend. And although I try to control / hide it… my Dear Wife commented this weekend I was showing that I was distressed with seeing my Friend.
@NTL
…i asked about your self esteem because when i started looking for help with my LE, the first thing i came across (not this blog) said, essentially “well, you have low self-esteem! that’s why you got into this!”
…but it was not until i started working with my therapist (who understands limerence) that i realized self-esteem wasn’t the problem…i had been ok before i met my xlo.
i told my therapist, i like myself. i have depression, but i am understanding toward myself, i have never felt this awful about myself as i do now!
and she said “that’s because limerence doesn’t really start with low self-esteem. it CAUSES low self esteem.”
and i had to say, in my life, my experience, she was right.
so i say to you, NTL. you are probably fine. you are a good person, have been a thoughtful husband, have achieved things, or have qualities you feel good about.
…could it be that it is this situation, this LE (not Friend, as a person, but your *involvement* with Friend — that is causing you to feel you are inadequate…
is it worth that? for me, it was not. though it took me many months to finally come to that conclusion.
i’m not saying you should do anything, take any action, i am only asking you to think about what actually is you, and what is only due to the situation you are in…and to have compassion for yourself.
These are very hard situations that none of us wished to get into…and none of us are stupid or irresponsible. just human….
“As if there was not enough gin in all the world”
I like this because in my younger years before I got married I was absolute unhinged drunk. I drank everyday as if it was my last day on earth. If I hadn’t found my wife I don’t think I would have made it to my 30’s.
I’ve mellowed out a lot since I got married and more as our two sons were born. But when it came to limerence I did the exact same thing. Chasing even the smallest of highs. Knowing if I chased the first one of the day it wouldn’t be my last. Limerence and alcohol are very similar in their effects on the brain.
But I have made progress with limerence the same way I have alcohol. I may not be where I should be when it comes to alcohol like I am limerence, but I did finally get there. Took me three damn years and a lot of help from a lot of people here. You keep surrounding yourself with the community here you too will get there NTL. Letting go is incredibly painful, but if you can endure that pain, it will slowly turn to peace and contentment within yourself without the need for outside validation.
Yeah… I understand it… but I REALLY don’t wanna ” let go ” of her. Weak of me, I know!
Why does she have to be SUCH an pleasant Friend! Makes it much better and much worse. I haven’t gone through all this site… but I don’t recall to many LE’s having such a good, pleasant, and close LO
@NTL
I definitely had a fun LO and he was a kind person. A flake and clueless, but kind. Not a bad guy, I don’t think. Not a narcissist. Just a young man.
He would have no idea what it’s like to be a woman in midlife (which is what I am…) I can’t say he treated me carelessly. He just did what young men do…
But, the time came when I realized, it didn’t matter. My life was going to hell in a handbasket because I was so emotionally tied to him, his presence, and his reactions to me. I was crying a lot, I was lying a lot, and I was losing focus at work…I was miserable and lost, unless he was there, with me.
I was addicted. I had to stop it…the only other choice was not a choice at all. It was just more wanting…and more wanting what I could not ever have. I did not want to spend one more moment in that state. So, I made the decision to cut it off. It has been very sad. Very difficult. But, I know I have done the right thing. My limerence was costing me my sanity. That is not an understatement.
CSC
I myself could have written what you just posted… tears, lying, lost focus, dependency on Her being present, all of it
Even it never being enough of Friend, and my sanity… check and check. Until I found this site, I really and truly thought I was losing my mind.
Horrifying, and impossible to explain to a non-Limerent
Thanks to people like you on this site, I feel less alone
To NTL:
I can see where her kindliness is a double-edged sword. Obviously, I don’t have that problem with my LO. He’s mercurial, and I never know what I am going to get when I see him. Sometimes he’s friendly, sometimes he’s angry, but most times he’s distracted.
I can’t imagine being able to walk and talk with him for any length of time.
CSC
Never really had before this any “self esteem” issues… people who didn’t seem to want to be my friend I was fine with.
But this… depression, feeling not “worthy” of her… its all new and fun! A side affect of ( almost any ) addiction??
Mila, csc and Snow
“on the altercation about when to call someone XLO or not, that’s absolutely up to each person and their definition of limerence. Also, it can help to call LO XLO prematurely just to force into the mind that this must be over.”
I hope that you don’t mind me interjecting, but I was discussing this with csc the other day.
I agree that it’s a personal choice. I also very much see Snow’s point as she made to me about the amount of “presence” that person maintains.
I’ve been back and forth with this for a while. To me, although “that woman” (©️csc!) still looms large in my head, I really feel that I can say that I’m not Limerent for her anymore. Quite the opposite actually, as you all know well – it turns out that there’s very little to like about her. So I’m on the fence a bit. Yes it can help to trick the mind, and by continuing to call them LO, are we holding ourselves back from further recovery?
I saw mine yesterday for the first time in 3 weeks. I’ve posted in this chat about it if you didn’t see it. I felt nothing but disdain. Still, I’m not really sure where that fits into the whole “x” debate.
Just my musings
Jmmo
@jmmo
personally, i am not trying to trick my mind.
i believe that limerence is the active state of an episode, where one is involved with lo.
i believe anything after that (maintained nc, lc, or cc) is not limerence, but the beginning of the withdrawal and grief stages. to me, the limerence is when one is engaged in digging the hole, making it deeper, going further into the hole.
any act that is NOT digging the hole, no matter how fruitless it feels, is choosing to climb from the hole. it is the intention and the effort.
so, to me, once i make that choice, i have an xlo.
if i continue to call my lo, lo, i am staying in. and i do not plan to stay in. no matter how feebly, i am going in the “out of the hole” direction. now, i say i am in withdrawal, or in grief. but i am no longer in limerence.
to me, it’s not a mind trick. it’s being really clear about how i feel around it, and what i am actually doing.
i still think about him a lot, but, i am not going back down the hole. the thoughts are of withdrawal, grief, and loss. but NOT limerent thoughts.
limerent thoughts are “how do i get MORE”.
thoughts now are “i am staying away.”
csc
Yes apologies I used a bad analogy. I’m not trying to trick my mind either. I agree entirely. Yes, she is in my head constantly. However, I’d much, much rather she wasn’t.
I agree entirely with your definition of limerence. I like you am grieving. I want no further part of any LE, especially with her. I very much also want out, which is why I think I need to add the x label.
I hope I did not upset my BLP. That would be my last wish, and the very last thing I need right now. 😢
Jmmo
hi @jmmo
no no apologies necessary! i was trying to be clear that i’m not trying to trick myself. though, if one did want to trick themselves, no shade on that. i feel that one should do *whatever* helps. barring hurting another person.
i am all for whatever language, whatever method, etc. i just wanted to be clear about why i use xlo…in case it helps someone else.
dear blp, in my mind all who are suffering through limerence and dealing with limerent tendencies, withdrawals, grief, or further thought to intentionally steer away from tendencies, have total amnesty in whatever tack they take, language they use, etc…
i am interested in the categorizations, but only insofar as they help people. i am not interested in doctrine or strict taxonomy rules 🙂
but *i* am sorry if my message / reply seemed curt! it was not intended to be. i was trying to be succinct 🙂
Dear csc
Phew! Don’t worry, I think I’m a little edgy after catching a glimpse of her yesterday. I’m glad that you find purpose in your definition of “x”, as usual with us, it matches mine perfectly, if for differing reasons.
In the words of an ELO song (well, you did say I could 😜):
“And one thing’s sure for certain,
I ain’t never going back again. No no.”
Here’s to our LOs being X’s!
With warm hugs
Jmmo xx
hi @jmmo
yeah…i saw you had a bit of interaction with her…and was glad to also read the disdain showed up to help you. but, i can imagine it’s still pretty intense, even though you were not in a besotted, unrequited state, heartwise….i would guess (unscientifically) the jolt of chemicals kind of doesn’t know one emotion or state from another…these are primal chemicals…and will require a bit of downtime after a dose!
it’s funny, as i read your posts, i am actually starting to feel a bit of…what i will call “ambivalence”…toward my xlo. i am still not sure if he deserves it, but, it’s been nice to feel things shift, even slightly, from the pressing sadness…
i know that every hard emotion i feel is my recovery in progress. it is not a verdict on me, and not a place i will stay. i know it is what i must move through.
i understand how sensitive you might be today…i am sure that even though the disdain was there, your brain had an ‘all hands on deck’ moment — a call to action, just in case!
haha- i will now give a lyric from one of my favorites, Mayonnaise by Smashing Pumpkins
“know….that…when i can…i will.”
:))
Hi csc
Yes there’s no doubt the interaction destabilised me it was always going to, wasn’t it? You are quite right, although there was no longing or besotted-ness(??) and the disdain remained, I do remember feeling as though my brain was dashing around trying to find something to anchor to. The fact that it remained at the dislike I have taken as a positive indication that my Limerence (as we have defined it) is over and she is firmly now X-LO. Even if, as you may see on the other thread, a certain amount of guilt has now returned.
I’m interested in how your feelings of ambivalence cropped up. I found that really noticeable in my case. Please keep me updated on how that progresses over the next few days.
We are recovering people addicts, and yes it will take us time. You and I will get there BLP. We can alternate between ELO and Smashing Pumpkins as the soundtrack. I love that lyrics line!
Thank you as ever my dear friend
Jmmo blp, PhD, ELO, esq xx
Here is DrL’s “the Key Stages of Limerence” —
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-key-stages-of-limerence/
It is Whatever helps an individual limerent recover and feel free soon that counts.
❄️
Thanks for that. A very useful reminder. Appreciate you posting it.
⛺️
Mila,
The scrolling has beaten me!
Good luck cultivating that more relaxed attitude towards him for the trip. Especially as you’re so tired, don’t let him creep into every inch of your time.
When I saw your ‘look at him with new eyes’ point, my instant thought was ‘that sounds dangerous for creating a new glimmer’ 😬😉🤪. I’m joking – I am confident you have all the science of it figured out and wouldn’t let that happen.
“Also, it can help to call LO XLO prematurely just to force into the mind that this must be over.”
Absolutely. You did this and then it seemed to start an avalanche of all of us doing it. Even when the limerence was over, she still occupied my thoughts with the conflict on how to resolve the friendship, just like you. It is hard to know when we can really deem an LE ‘over’. I think Snow would say when we are ‘indifferent’, which is a very fair point. But for many of us, that could take a very long time. Others are using the xLO label when they no longer feel attracted to the person. There can be a long gap between not feeling limerent and feeling indifferent.
Mila, in continuation …
“Is it too revealing to ask how contact looks like at the moment for you? Is it only through work or do you meet outside of work sometimes or text?”
Texting has stopped almost completely – only now when there is a really genuine reason to, no more “here’s a joke you might like” type stuff.
Contact is mostly through work which is almost daily. At one point I tried to reduce that to the minimum possible, but there are knock on effects workwise if we don’t communicate well. So I have relaxed a bit with that, and it’s been fine.
We’ve also recently had a few coffees/lunch during some workdays, most times in a group but once just the two of us (this sort of thing used to be very routine for us – not doing it ever or refusing to do it would create awkward questions). I am coping fine with all of that, and it feels better than the previous phase of tiptoeing around each other.
I do put limits on anything social and so, it seems, does she. I’d describe it as a phase of sussing out sensible boundaries and what can work.
If it feels to you like I’ve resolved the post-lim resentment stage quicker than you, then two things to bear in mind. Firstly, it might be because of the near daily exposure – changes in things that happen and how I feel and react can be quite rapid. There is more opportunity for changes to happen and for patterns to develop, and an onus work-wise to not have bad feeling. But I am not certain it couldn’t flare off again in either direction – I’m not naive to the possibility of ’embers’ (though I’m not currently feeling any ‘trouble in the tealeaves’ – look it up!) or that ill-feeling at the frustrated LE might resurface.
So I wouldn’t worry if our journeys to whatever these ‘friendships’ end up being feel different. I think it takes a long time to resolve it, and where we are now doesn’t foretell where it will end. I am not certain how much would be left after limerence if it wasn’t for work.
LaR and Mila…
I apologize ( I am doing that a LOT in my life these last few days ) for jumping in on your conversation.
LaR, I feel I am on a similar path / quest… texting has become MUCH less, and much less “intimate” with Friend and I… more… informational if you know what I mean.
And we really this last week or so only ( if I can apply the word “only” to getting this much time alone together ) have our daily lunch hour walks together… I don’t intrude if you will on her work space anymore.
I feel we are heading towards a lesser / more stable “coworker” relationship… a bit painful, yes, but necessary. I have also planned to NOT attend 2 work social functions she will be at.
All the best on your Journey!
NTL,
haven’t followed all posts, but you are welcome to barge into any of my conversations!
Congratulations, you sound more sober and determined!
LaR,
I think we just face different situations and LOs. I agree that you can process it faster through steady work contact with your LO, but you also face her permanent presence in your work/life while I won’t see mine that often after the trip, and in foreseeable future his vacancy here will be filled and then there will be even less or no opportunity to see each other.
At the moment I’m not sure how I feel about him and the friendship, I’m basically tired. I think I’m not behaving towards him as I would like, I’m being a bit erratic and not fair, and I don’t like that for my own pride. But, as I told myself here, maybe I should cut myself some slack and it’s understandable that I’m not yet ready to behave completely poised and serene about it.
I think I don’t have to look up your trouble in the tealeaves, it’s not hard to understand..
Are you capable of behaving consistently as you would like to behave towards her? Sounds like it. Hat off to you.
🔥 🍊 🍷,
Try a scent/Sea salt warm/hot bath every night during your entire trip, it will ease nerves through skin contacts. Trust me on this!
When we feel tired, we can hardly think or feel authentically….
Snow,
it might not be possible all evenings, I might come home too late and better sleep instead, also am not a big fan of hot baths or saunas, but will definitely try it!
Thanks for the suggestion!
Mila,
“Are you capable of behaving consistently as you would like to behave towards her? Sounds like it.”
I am not going to prematurely brag or claim victory here, as I remember how low I was just a few weeks ago and also how limerent I was for so long. I can now truthfully say I have it in me to behave as I want to towards her, whereas before I didn’t know. I can say that I’ve attained a state of peace that has lasted a few weeks. What I can’t say or know is whether I can hold it. I can see the potential to veer either way, and so I just need to try and keep doing the same as I’m doing and not alter course.
I hope this trip gives you time to work it out.
Yes, we do face almost opposite problems of frequent intense contact vs ‘shall I text?’ type dilemmas. I’m glad you are remembering some of the good in him. I doubt you would not have been so wrong in the first place to have him as friends for a decade if he wasn’t likeable
🔥 🍊 🍷,
Just 20-30 minutes, not shorter or longer, not too hot, you’ll see what difference it makes. You’ll relax and sleep better for sure, it’s been tested and proven (supported by science/biology) effective for thousands of years in many cultures.
Hell again LaR
Sorry, I am very curious person… when you said ” We’ve also recently had a few coffees/lunch during some workdays, most times in a group but once just the two of us (this sort of thing used to be very routine for us – not doing it ever or refusing to do it would create awkward questions)” did you mean questions from LO? Or from others?
For me… if I tried ( not going to stop, don’t want to stop ! ) to stop going on walks with my Friend… she would wanna know why. I have only partial “disclosed” to her… but she I believe knows how I feel about her. She knows to tell me when she is away from the office for example, so I don’t get too anxious when she is not here.
We have been working on sensible, as you put it, boundaries as well.
For me, I am quite sure, after the LE, we will be friends. Just not “Friends”
NtL,
“did you mean questions from LO? Or from others?”
Probably both. It is a long-established friendship where the things I mentioned like coffees have happened on and off for many years. Not disclosed but have leaked – how much I’m not sure. To pull the plug on anything social totally would attract attention, because her and others who know us would wonder why what had seemed on the surface just a close friendship (most of the rest was in my head) had abruptly stopped. A little is safer than none at all in this particular situation where NC is not an option. But hypothetically I’d probably take NC for a while if I could, to speed up my recovery.
“I feel we are heading towards a lesser / more stable “coworker” relationship… a bit painful, yes, but necessary. I have also planned to NOT attend 2 work social functions she will be at.”
That’s a good positive step for you to have made that decision – well done. It *is* painful, no two ways about it, to try and rid ourselves of limerence while the LO is in our orbit. I had to dance around social things for a couple of months after making a conscious decision that – coming up to 2 years in – I had to end my LE. But I now feel on firmer ground where I can be around her without the big L resurfacing. I have learned a lot from the posters on this site and now feel better equipped.
„Especially as you’re so tired, don’t let him creep into every inch of your time.“
„When I saw your ‘look at him with new eyes’ point, my instant thought was ‘that sounds dangerous for creating a new glimmer’ 😬😉🤪. I’m joking – I am confident you have all the science of it figured out and wouldn’t let that happen.“
Well, not entirely off- there might be a danger of slipping back into the old view of this special person who has hidden depths and cares for me specially. The old glimmer renewed, so to say.
I do have some habitual urge to reach out by text,but never as far as really considering it.
I‘m not sure how I come across(?) to him, I think he‘s a bit distant now too, I would understand it, and maybe it’s for the best for us, but I do feel a bit of regret for that.
To all… some ramblings, to dull the pain and distract me
– 3 pleasant interactions with my Friend ( she even came to say hi at my desk )… and we are going on a walk this afternoon ( yeah! )… still been hurting all morning… the pain ONLY goes away today when I am with her… so much for ” I am managing this”
– has anyone else seen, in the “wild” another person dealing with an LE, esp in the workplace ( best place to see an LE, sort of like looking for wildlife at the watering holes in Africa )? I have I don’t think actually seen it in person… and I think the signs are hard to miss?
– I hear Limerence in a huge number of songs I never noticed it in before… maybe just more aware now of the signs and symptoms??
– we use the term Limerence OBJECT… in my case I refer to her a Friend. But… can people become Limerent, as it were, for actual Objects?
For example… I have had times, from weeks and into months, where all I thought about 24/7 was motorcycles or guitars. As a Limerence example… even ones that were “unobtainable”.
For others… drugs, alcohol, gambling, excessive shopping, hoarding, collecting paintings or rare wines….. the list goes one. This can all have behaviors which to my untrained mind look … similar to Limerence. They provide highs and lows, often lying to others / ourselves, affecting work and concentration, etc.
NTL,
Have you read https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-for-a-co-worker/ ?
Read Fred’s story about his Manic Pixie Dream Girl. I can’t remember if it was him or some other poster who gave his LO an equity position in the company.
There have been some real horror stories about Limerence in the workplace going wrong. None of them have been corroborated but their all very interesting.
– One semi-active poster claims got an EEO complaint filed against him and got fired
– Another poster claimed to have become limerent for a client and got himself disbarred
Some people manage limerence for coworkers pretty well and some have things blow up in their faces.
Be careful. Talking about other coworkers is risky. If she doesn’t trust you and tells them what you said about them or tells management what you said about them, things can get very ugly very quickly.
We want to build a rapport with our LO. It’s usually not that great of an idea in general but with a coworker LO, you’re in a minefield. LOs don’t always behave the way you want them to.
Good luck!
LE
I will have a good read of the link you attached
I appreciate this advice, but I feel secure on at least 2 fronts….
– my Friend would NEVER NEVER pass on what we chat about together on our walks. We really, I believe , do not tell anyone else what we chat about. I have told her for certainty that I do not. It is only for, and between, us.
– even if she did… regarding what we have talked about the workplace… most of it is no secret, and I have said nothing I would take back, or deny having said
For me / us … there is no minefield.
And… no, she doesnt always behave the way I want ( but pretty close ! ) but she is her own person.
well that was a Horrible walk
I only managed to annoy her and make her sad and make her upset.
Job well done
What happened??
SL…
I just was talking to her about some coworkers to be careful of ( office politics ) and it spun out of control, and she took a hard all-or-nothing line, and basically we parted with US ok, but her now almost hating being in the workplace.
Should have kept my mouth shut.
Sounds very flaky to me. Best off without. Likely to be trouble.
Jmmo
Hello jmmo
I was initially a bit put off by your reply about Friend…. But i have read a bunch of your posts… and I think yours is an experienced voice!
But… my Friend is not not
Like that…. ( I might be a but biased, but I think she absolutely wonderful )