This has to be one of the commonest limerence traps out there. It’s certainly the most common scenario that people email me about, and no wonder; all the elements of limerence are there: close proximity to a small community of people (including potential LOs), built in barriers to the free expression of feelings, and no prospect of going fully No Contact. Mix in mid-lifers, boredom, long periods of time spent together with the occasional shared triumphs and disasters, and you couldn’t have set up better conditions for limerence if you had designed it. Like some sort of limerence super villain.
So, what are the challenges that face the limerent who succumbs to a co-worker LO? And how can you overcome them?
1) No no contact
There’s no escaping it, you often have to work with your co-workers. If you become limerent for one of them, then the number one tactic for overcoming limerence is denied to you. That means working on other tactics, but first, you should establish how much contact is really necessary. If LO is someone you only interact with very occasionally, then No Contact is feasible. It’s also possible to limit contact to essential business, and avoid LO during more casual interactions (coffee breaks etc.). If you are able to, limit contact as much as you can.
Sometimes, it’s not possible, though. Maybe LO is your boss. Maybe LO works for you, or you are both in a small team. So, the best bet under these conditions is to reprogram your brain and disrupt established, comfortable patterns of behaviour. I’ve written before about the idea of a “staged withdrawal” strategy. This means slowly turning the tenor of your interactions with LO away from intimacy and back to cordial professionalism. The plan is to be less and less forthcoming with personal information, and steer conversations that have drifted from professional topics back on track. A sudden “cold turkey” end to friendliness is going to provoke questions and confusion from LO, so you need to decelerate deliberately and carefully. It takes discipline to pull this off, but a slow, planned, progressive cooling of relations is a good way of neutralising the limerence while maintaining professionalism.
2) Disclosure is a massively high risk strategy
I’ve written before about the complications of flirting at work. In [current year] flirting, or even discussing romance, with work colleagues is a very high risk activity. If you misjudge this – and let’s be honest, most of us are not masters of communication – the repercussions are potentially severe. Most companies are extremely risk averse about co-worker romances, and many have explicit policies around this. Quite apart from the social and professional consequences, there are also the personal implications of having to work with someone after you have admitted your feelings – whether or not they reciprocate.
Many of us have experienced the grimness of working in a team where a romance has Gone Wrong and the ex-partners still have to work together. Many will also have worked in a team where overt favouritism is shown to the boss’s romantic partner (or even if it isn’t, the perception that it is predominates). There is no denying that office romances disrupt the functioning of teams. Or maybe LO is limerent for you too, but in a long-term relationship, and so you drag each other down in a limerence-reinforcing push/pull dance of excitement and guilt. None of these scenarios make for a successful professional or romantic career.
And in the (probably much more likely) scenario that your feelings are not reciprocated by LO, you have no idea how they will react.
People are unpredictable. All kind of fascinating weirdness is out there. While that makes the world a stimulating and enriching place, in the immediate term it makes your working life harder. Maybe they will be very offended and report you. Maybe they will like the attention, and string you along. Maybe they will be freaked out, and avoid you at all costs, making it hard to get your work done (though it should help with lessening the limerence).
Unless you are very confident that LO reciprocates, and you are both free to act on your feelings, disclosure at work is high on risk and low on benefit.
3) Power hierarchies complicate everything
Linking uncomfortably into the previous point, the dangers of disclosure are magnified if there is a significant power differential between you and LO. The #metoo movement is exposing the long history of bosses making unwanted sexual advances towards their subordinates, but there’s a flip side too. In the past, a subordinate “flirting up” with an uninterested manager would have been taking little risk. Most likely it would have been taken with good humour or embarrassment, or at worst, the flirt would have become the butt of office gossip. Now, it is very likely that the manager will take steps to protect themselves. In fact, that is the standard advice where I work – any romantic overtures from junior colleagues should be documented and reported up the line. That formally records what once would have been possible to laugh off.
So wherever you and LO sit in the hierarchy, there is no easy or safe way to disclose. The current climate in professional circles seems to have settled on “no romance with co-workers permitted”, which, while simple enough, rather blithely dismisses human nature. That said, if you are limerent for a co-worker and don’t want to be, then this can be a very useful mantra. Treat it like an iron-cast rule.
4) Boundaries between work and home
The final big challenge is where to draw boundaries between work and home. Most people socialise with their work colleagues to some degree, even if only at company-organised “dos”. It goes without saying that these are perilous moments if LO is present; doubly so if alcohol is also present. A common experience during these event is hyperawareness of LO – always knowing where they are in the room, being distracted from the conversation you are having, because you have half an ear open for the conversation LO is having behind you. The best method I devised for dealing with this was to deliberately focus on the person in front of you, and listen to them actively. This helps create a mental bubble, helps you be a better colleague (and makes the event more enjoyable for the person you are chatting with), and also means you may get to learn something interesting.
Finally, the other big boundary – the final frontier – is social media and texting. Company cultures differ, but if you can possibly avoid e-communication with LO outside of work hours, do so. There are multiple reasons, but the big one is that nothing feeds limerence like an ambiguous text from LO read just before you go to bed.
No contact outside work is the goal to strive for. No texting or FB messaging or Whatsapping unless the correspondence is mission critical. Acceptable scenarios in this category would include if you are limerent for the CEO and they need your input to prevent a multimillion pound deal collapsing over the weekend. You can send a text then. But keep it brief. Otherwise, wean yourself off the habit of texting LO as quickly and decisively as you can.
tl;dr:
Limerence for a co-worker is a minefield, with very little prospect for a good outcome. It is a scenario that lends itself well to the overall theme of this blog: recognise that the limerence is happening within your mind, carefully apply psychological tactics to counteract the limerence program, and decide to take responsibility and live with purpose. It’s the long term path to mastery.
Realistically of course the best remedy is for either the LO or the Limerent to leave the workplace. Then the best remedy, NC, is possible.
Thankfully that’s what has happened to me, LO is leaving in 5 days. We’ve fallen out too so I don’t think we’ll have the tearful goodbye I was dreading either, which makes it easier, albeit a sad end.
Yes, one or other of you leaving is the simplest ending. Well done for hanging on Vincent. Shame that you’ve fallen out with LO at the end, but as you say, that’s actually likely to help in the final analysis.
Keep your eyes on the post-LO future and all the new possibilities therein!
A week of NC now after I sent her a text saying we were done now. We’d fallen out over something, I gave it a few days but couldn’t get over what she had done (I don’t want to reveal details but she’s done similar a couple of times and we’d had words each time). Part of me wonders if my reaction was me subconsciously making this parting and path into NC easier for myself. Either way, she left without saying goodbye, which made me feel very sad, and she’s not replied to my text. I’ve deleted all trace of her now and am trying to look to the future, when not wondering why she hasn’t replied ;-( …
If it helps at all, Vincent, there is never much realistic prospect of a clean or happy ending to unfulfilled limerence. The only real hope is if you can manage a staged withdrawal beforehand, but often either limerent or LO gets offended, or upset, and the “friendship” deteriorates. Especially if there was mutual limerence.
Looking to the future is always a good perspective.
She left two weeks back for another state. Miss her so much, we parted well. Wish her well.
Reading my mind, eh?
Excellent advice, all of it. Pity that at this particular moment I am too far into the limerence fog to want to enforce it. And I was doing so well! Till last week, when there was –you guessed it– socializing and alcohol.
At least I’ve had the discipline to swap my home office days in order to limit contact to LO as inconspicuously as possible, and have updated my CV just in case. Wish me luck.
Hi Marianne,
Very late to reply to this (apologies!) but… Good luck!
Dr L
Also: you are spot on on the factors. Even though I am a serial limerent, I never had this issue before at work, so I’m blaming the midlife crisis.
And I thought with age came maturity and calm. Nonsense!
Thank you so much for this blog. I am thick in the fog for my boss who now says I am his firend and I can call him at night or on the weekends. He has a counseling degree and is working with me on setton on
Hi Kate, and welcome.
Yikes, limerence for boss is a tough one – no contact is not really an option!
If your boss is a counsellor, he should be well aware of professional boundaries, but I confess to being a little taken aback by the number of emails I get from therapy professionals who seem to think that they are immune to the problems that they counsel clients on. Until they get mugged by limerence. I’ve speculated to myself that it is an area of work that is by its very nature is very emotionally charged, and so limerence is a significant risk.
If you can, I would suggest putting fairly strict limits on your evening and weekend contact. It’s a very effective reinforcer of reverie.
Good luck!
“I confess to being a little taken aback by the number of emails I get from therapy professionals who seem to think that they are immune to the problems that they counsel clients on.”
Well, remember that part of the therapy process IS getting clients to trust you and transference is supposed to be something addressed in-depth while in school and in training. It shouldn’t come as a surprise to any of them and they are supposed to know how to extricate themselves from the dynamic when it’s no longer helpful to the client.
In theory.
This is short and hardly all-encompassing, but it’s still worth the read.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-therapy/201206/clients-guide-transference
In all honesty – if this guy has a license to risk, I would call the governing body and find out if there are any complaints on file.
“I am thick in the fog for my boss who now says I am his friend and I can call him at night or on the weekends. ”
Don’t call this guy at night or weekends. This is a veritable red flag factory. Can you find a new job? Is he THE boss or YOUR boss? Is there some sort of employee handbook? I would suggest HR but if he’s their boss you can put your career in jeopardy.
Yesterday I saw LO properly for first time in over 6 months. Went in with a box of chocolates for the team (as is customary for former colleagues to during the 2nd busiest week of the year!)
LO said Hello. What was said I can’t be 100% certain because my anxiety took over. It was basic pleasantries rather than a proper conversation. He then went out the back and I managed a proper chat with the other colleagues.
Lessons learned:
– The Glimmer has gone!! I was simultaneously delighted and sad at this. Also annoyed that if there’s no glimmer, how come I couldn’t string a sentence together!?!
– He was indifferent to me – nice enough but just as he had been to previous customer.
– The whole thing may have been in my head – I was being ridiculous.
– I’ve made an idiot of myself, and there’s 0 chance of reciprocation now.
– I may actually be making progress!!
Thanks again for all the support from this site. Hope everyone manages to have a Happy Christmas and New Year.
Happy Christmas to you too, Sophie.
Sounds like a bit of a mixed bag of emotions with your last contact – but mostly positive lessons. Not too surprising to find yourself tongue-tied, given how much Significance LO takes on in our limerent minds, but great that you bounced back quickly and recognised how much progress you’ve made (congrats!). Here’s to a purposeful 2019!
Hi – Thanks for this site. I needed something to go to and this has been perfect. I didnt even know there was a name for what I was going through!
I used to work with a colleague for 2 years, 6 years ago – we were good friends which at the end she became like a work wife – after I left we lost touch bar the odd message on linked in. Always thought she was nice but no way my type at all.
Then 2 years ago in my current job a vacancy arose and i recommended her to my manager – she got the job. We pretty much slotted back into work wife/hubby situation again and then I realised after 6 months the ‘glimmer’ and started to like her and do special things for like – bring her coffee when she was stressed, helped her find shoes online that she couldnt get her size in…..go to new eating joints after work with her – she did reciprociate messaging me outside of work and coming with me when i asked her for drinks – didnt initiate that much – she is an introvert so I found i did all the asking and she always was ok with it.
Anyway over the last 18 months I realised i thought about her a lot at home and even was messaging her when i was on holiday – and once even messaged her when she wasnt in the office and told her i missed her (in an indirect way)…our messages and closeness increased but there was no disclosure from either of us. Im not convinced she has anything for me except good feelings of care and friendship – she does message me on weekends with jokes and stuff.
Anyway in the last 2 months i have not been myself and i came across this site and decided to start to let it all go…its hard as we are in the same team but not working directlty on the same projects so that does help. On a positive note she is leaving end of Jan.
So all sounds good right?
BUT we have both applied for a new job which is one of the worlds best brands and they have several vacancies – my worry is should i still take it if she gets an offer too!!
As my therapist says to me, her texting in the evenings, weekends and holidays is very telling. She’s obviously thinking about you, and you don’t do that if you’re not interested.
You haven’t said what the problem is here. Do you and her have SOs?
Thanks – to clarify, 90% of the time I text on weekends and evenings and she does participate in conversation/banta with me. only 10% of the time would she initiate it. On holiday i have 100% always initiated it and she will talk when on holiday fo ra short while…not on going throughout the holiday. So not sure what to make of it.
I guess last week i thought id take advantage of our xmas party and the fact that people would be relaxed…..I said to her before the party that maybe we leave at 11 and get some food together and i can walk her to her station – we both said good idea but we would see how the evening would go and how we were feeling at the time……when it came to 11pm on the night she said she was not tired yet and would probably stay till midnight….so i then left at 11pm. I kinda took that as a cue that she has nothing for me expect friendship as that was a good opportunity to spend time together alone which she dismissed.
I have an SO but really like the LO. She has no SO
“…bring her coffee when she was stressed, helped her find shoes online that she couldnt get her size in…..go to new eating joints after work with her ”
In essence, you were dating her (LO). Did you put an equal amount of thought and effort into your relationship with your SO then? Do you now?
“I have an SO but really like the LO. She has no SO.”
Sounds like SO is a placemarker or security object.
Does SO know about the situation with your co-worker? If she did, would you do anything differently? I’m not talking about “guilt gifts”.
In the meantime, I hope 2019 is less uncertain for you.
Well didn’t feel like dating. Felt like I was doing these things to try and see if she will reciprocate in her own way. Don’t think there was anything. She did if I asked her for something. But she wasn’t proactive like I was.
And yes gave SO same attention. But limerence at work meant it’s like 2 lives and I can’t tell if she has limerence too
Kevin –
Helping a woman find shoes in her size online is something you do for someone you are courting. Do you do it for anyone else, unsolicited? Pop up and bring coffee for others? Do you know their preferred roast and whether or not they take it black or with sugar? Do you do it for men in your office?
I mean, turn it around. If your SO was researching and purchasing a tie for a co-worker, or tying a tie for a gentleman at work, wouldn’t you twig to the fact that she has romantic feelings for him?
It’s like…reaching out and straightening a man’s collar without pointing it out to him (he can do it himself). It’s an intimate gesture.
If you are no longer interested in your SO – let her go. Life is only so long and she may not be aware that you’re only half-interested in her. Cut your losses.
Your not wrong. Yes I do like LO and do all these things for her as I’m looking for reciprocal actions as I have learnt I have limerence and craving that. She doesn’t give as much as I do hence why I’m convinced that she has nothing for me.
What your saying I agree and know about. But I’m trying to stop now and focus on SO Hence on this site.
even though we work together we will have no contact as we are of work for 2 weeks. Then I have 4 weeks of vein in same building and then she leaves end of jan
Question is we may end up again st the same company if we both get a job we are going for.
Can you broaden your skill set to minimize holding very similar positions within a company? I don’t know your field and at the upper echelon it tends to get rather cosy. But the more you invest in yourself, the better.
Having said that when I mentioned the other day that I need a new blazer she sent me a link if one she was suggesting. Things like that keep me hanging on to her thinking she likes me and we can carry on living in this world where we like each other. But I don’t know if I’m correct or she is just being friendly.
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for your comments, and for sharing your experiences. I think the most important question you have to answer is “do you really want a home wife and a work wife, and are your two wives OK with that too?”
You should take some time to reflect on what you want from your life, because it seems like you are seeking emotional connection with LO without really understanding why and why your life with SO is not meeting that need.
My ethos is “purposeful living” because it helps to stimulate me to think about why I do what I do, and how it fits in with my goals. I drifted into limerence for a co-worker because I was just responding to the happy feelings of a new (sort of) romantic connection, without looking ahead to the inevitable negative consequences. I then had to dig myself out of the mess, which was painful for everyone involved.
From what you’ve shared, it sounds like you are seeking deeper emotional bonding with your co-worker. While it feels good early on, once it tips into limerence, you become increasingly desperate for reciprocation, connection and intimacy. It kind of sounds like you are there – scrutinising every action for meaning, anchoring your hopes on small, ambiguous gestures, and worrying about how you are going to handle future interactions.
If you do want to get out of this limerence loop, I think a really valuable first step would be to accept that you are never going to know for sure how LO feels about you, and that’s OK. I wrote a post on that idea here, https://livingwithlimerence.com/2018/08/17/living-with-uncertainty/.
The main point is about “letting go” of LO and refocussing on SO. If LO has good character, they would not respond to your romantic overtures anyway, if they knew you were in a relationship. Alternatively, if your relationship with SO is over, you should end it with integrity, and then take your chances with LO (who may decline).
As for the future, it may play out that you and LO end up working together again. If so, I would start that new endeavour with a new perspective: she is not your work wife, she is a co-worker that you like and enjoy the company of. Multiple wives (or husbands) is rarely a good look…
Thanks for this and taking the time to
Write it.
Yeah, like you it’s rhise new romantic feelings I’m enjoying. Well I was enjoying but now I try and avoid her in the workplace and am
Counting down the days to
Her last day. Cos
Of how i feel
After experiencing her presence – a mess.
Before limerence I felt
Energised but now
It’s different.
Since Xmas
Party this week I feel I have to give her up. She basically chose the party over me and I was out just to spend time with her. I do feel like a fool doing nice things for her like a boyfriend would throughout the year.
So you had something similar and your fully over it
Now?
Kevin,
Twenty months ago, I was in full blown Limerence with a divorce male family friend. I’m happily married with two teenagers. Limerence derailed my life and peace of mind. I found this website and have slowly crawled out of the madness. It’s a condition that I’m trying to control. During the height of Limerence, I purchased a $350 first edition, signed copy of my LO’s favorite local author. It was his Christmas gift. Did I spend that much money or time gift hunting for my SO? …No, I did not. That’s how insane and crazy Limerence can make a person.
A full year later, where am I? My LO is with his young girlfriend. I’m dead weight to him. …Where am I? Thankfully, still married to a man that took me out last night for dinner. It was raining, my SO gently tucked me in a corner to stay warm and dry while he walked out to get the car. This is real life. Not the Limerence.
Think about where you want to be in your life, marriage and peace of mind. If you cannot be around LO without being a person of integrity, then don’t take the position. Start the process of staged withdrawal and No contact.
It’s hard, but you can’t be with your LO now. By her actions, she acts like someone that cares, but not enough to break a marriage.
BTW, “mother Lee” is a spouse of a Limerent. She’s the cold splash of water that we need to remind us that there’s a real spouse on the other end of this Limerence roller coaster ride.
Good Luck.
I hope your evening together was delightful!
Happy holidays Irene. I hope 2019 is truly wonderful. Or at least a (mostly) fun ride.
Thanks for sharing
Did he reciprocate to you.
Thanks for sharing your story and words of wisdom with me. You are so right about what you say.
How did you get out of your Limerence.
Did he reciprocate to you.
My issue is sometimes im resiprocated (10%) of the time – so I hang onto that for more of the romantic feelings.
Im going for NC but as we work in same company on same floor we have to have contact. But atleast over the holiday period there will be none – unless she messages me. I kinda want her too deep down but I know it goes against all of this.
Kevin,
Every LO has reciprocated their Limerent feelings in one way or another. Often times that’s what initiated the start of Limerence. My LO was divorce, no kids and single for a very long time. He doesn’t want to have children or bother with other divorcée offsprings. My teenagers are young men and friends with LO. He’s not my type, we had known him for awhile. He recommended some things for us to go tour since we were new to the area. I enjoyed his recommendations and would thank him for his advice. This is a year into our acquaintance. We start a very appropriate friendship. We have an unbelievable amount of common interests in books, movies and hobbies. The glimmer starts. Four months of yearning and inappropriate “friendship” pattern is established. (Two inappropriate hugs initiated by LO was as far as it went) He gets tired of mooning after a married woman and moves on to a young single girl. Immediately, I’m avoided and ignored. It was a harmless flirtation on his part, ….almost two years for me to cope with the aftermath.
What lessons did I learn? It’s not my marriage, LO or anything external. What is the root of my problem? I have an avoidance personality, married to a incredibly strong willed husband that doesn’t share a lot of interests with me, siblings that are manipulative. I lost my beloved father in 2013, my only brother became paralyzed after a massive stroke in 2014 (age 51) and we make this major move to a new state. No family or friends and I’m not working in order to raise the boys. I meet LO in June 2015, the Limerence started in December of 2016. It’s the closing of 2018, I’m in a stronger position, but not completely over the Limerence. Wiser and armed with knowledge. This website, Dr.L and all the bloggers has helped.
Kevin, keep asking yourself this, …..What is the root of the problem? It’s not your LO or even your spouse. There’s a gap in your life and you are trying to fill it with LO and all the dopamine reliefs it comes with.
LO is not my type, but every time I see him, all the alarm buttons goes off, every hair in my body stands up and I’m in hyperarousal mode. You would absolutely laugh if I texted you a picture of him. He’s short, bald and slender to the point of being feminine. (I could list all of his appealing features, but it’s long and has to be in pdf) My husband refuses to find him a threat. I am so frightened of my response to LO that I avoid him like a recovering alcoholic avoids alcohol. This is Limerence. It has to be.
“…remind us that there’s a real spouse on the other end of this Limerence roller coaster ride.”
Well, from the number of times I’ve found myself unexpectedly smacked into walls (metaphorically speaking), I think it’s more like “crack the whip”.
He was seen by Miss LO at an event where he was underdressed and she was looking particularly attractive and was flirting with a single man (which made him jealous and angry) and I was later greeted with, “I’m so glad I’m good enough for you, Lee!” Oh gee, thanks. How noble of you, how self-sacrificing!
Thanks Lee. Good idea about skills set. They are similar and we both enjoy good companies to work for.
Anyway let see what happened. Best scenario is that I get the job and she doesn’t. Or she get it and I don’t.
Worst scenario is we both get it as they have multiple roles. Then I will
Be stuck.
This reminds me of that scene in How I Met Your Mother – Barney’s “Mermaid Theory” – that if you spend long enough with someone, you end up finding them attractive in the end. I’ve often thought that about work place based relationships.
https://youtu.be/eJC_q8OQwU4
That is true. I remember that episode
And thought the same.
When I first my LO in 2012 I thought she is ok but not my type. Looks and personality wise.
Now it’s a different story
@irene
Thanks Irene for sharing your story. I feel for you. Sounds like yeah it was
Harmless flirting for him. It was for me at work too with my LO. Think I enjoyed the challenge of seeing if I can get her to reciprocate. As we work together it carried on and when she showed signs of reciprocity, I liked it and carried on. And then BANG about 3 months ago I realised that before she energised me and now she drains me as I feel more and more sad that I can’t have her.
We even gave each other Xmas presents. It was very sweet and I told her that. But I know it’s just her being friendly.
What do you classify as inappropriate hugs?
Glad your in a better place now. Can’t have been easy. You sound strong. There is a reason why Buddhism believes in celibate i guess. Limeremce this can mess with your head big time.
Kevin,
Any hugs made to someone you’re attracted to is inappropriate while married. Long hugs, with cheeks pressed together in deep yearning is inappropriate. He was saying “Thank you for the beautiful book I gave him”. I’m going to avoid touching him in the future. His short height is an incredible turn on to me. It’s very intimate.
It’s about My personal archetype and upbringing. My childhood boyfriend was also my best friend during high school and college. He and I were inseparable. We grew up together, developed a love of old movies and books. It was a beautiful relationship. Five years and never consummated the relationship, because we were going to wait until after we were married. After college graduation, I wanted different goals than what he had mapped out. We parted with bittersweet tears.
My LO brings back such strong childhood memories and smells from this beautiful childhood. It’s classic transference.
@irene
Sounds like you had it tough but are through the hardest part. Was this through NC?
I’ve shown lots of gestures to my LO when not knowing limerence was probably being fed. I loved finding places to take her to eat and coffee houses that I know she would like. She would come too and enjoyed it.
I kinda feel it would have been better she didn’t but because we were friends from a previous employment, then in his new job we had a more intimate friendship one can argue. Me or her didn’t go out for lunches with other colleagues on a 121.
As mentioned
Above the Xmas
Party was the painful tipping point where I realised I really am wasting my time if she doesn’t want to spend time with me as it was my ‘hope’ for reciprocal action that DR L talks about not being met that upset me.
I feel for you but also you give hope that things can get better.
Without knowing I was trying to transfer LO to someone else in the office. We message on internal chat but she hasn’t accepted any of my lunch or dinner outings. She is probably wiser.
Kevin,
No contact or very limited contact is very important. You need to find out what triggers sets off your Limerence. Avoid these types. Stop engaging with coworkers outside of work unless it’s related to business until you figure out what’s motivating you to respond this way to certain women. I actually have a new priest that is my age and is very fond of me. He openly teases me and compliments my questions in our bible class. He has a delightful sense of humor. That’s a trigger. I instantly stop joking with him. I love wit and good natured ribbing. My husband is all business and doesn’t have tolerance for nonsense. I’m instantly attracted to sociable males with certain traits. I dial it back now with all men.
I know my kryptonite.
Hi Irene
You are being strong with the priest.
The issue with limerence is that initially makes you feel good about yourself and that’s why we come back for more I guess.
So the fact you’re being strong and not responding as much is good
I think my reason for going down this route and 14 for this trap is that I enjoy the challenge of getting girls to like me. I think I realise that today after talking to you All. It’s like a challenge. I know that as last year somebody was very much interested in Me From work as we were chatting a lot online. Looking back I think I subconsciously started talking to her to transfer my LO. But that didn’t work as I almost felt I was cheating on the LO I have with today. Anyway back to last year with this other girl , when we were in a taxi going home after a night out she did try to kiss me but I didn’t and felt it was not right.
Hi
So trying out this new contact stuff that’s been recommended
We usually contact every day on weekdays and sometimes weekends
However in the last week I don’t think I’ve done too bad as I just contacted on Christmas Day to wish a Merry Christmas and got the same greeting response back.
Now trying to go for a full week. However once we are back in the office on seventh of Jan and the real challenges will start
I mean NO CONTACT stuff
Good luck with it. If you wear glasses, it helps to remove them so she becomes another anonymous blur. Fewer conversations, more workplace emails (that can and ARE read by others) also dampen down enthusiasm. If it’s only about work, it’s probably not that interesting.
Changing her contact name to “No Contact” in your phone will make it easier to ignore any weekend or after work hours texts too.
Thanks Lee for your encouragement.
I actually deleted her number from my phone 6 months ago. Which tells me that I must have known this is becoming a problem for me before I even heard of limerence. But as we are on team what’s app groups from previous company I can always acccess her number. But I just made it more difficult for myself
Problem is she will ask me for coffee or lunch after I don’t say much to her. How to respond to that. If I’m not too careful I’m worried I may even tell her that I have a soft spot for her when she asks me why I’m being aloof.
Are you both single? Sorry, I don’t recall. I’m guessing one or both of you are not.
“Problem is she will ask me for coffee or lunch after I don’t say much to her. How to respond to that.”
“No, thank you.”
*chirp-chirp*
No explanations are necessary. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
She is single I’m not but like her a lot and can be tempted to flirt and enjoy her company, praise her etc etc.
Ok. So just keep it cold then. This will
Be interesting.
Thanks. It’s cold but I know it’s for the best
You don’t have to keep it “cold,” you keep it professional. Don’t respond to her weekend emails, etc.
You can always tell her the truth, maybe not the real truth, but enough of the truth. If she asks why you’ve distanced yourself, tell her the line of professionalism is getting fuzzy and you want to get back on the right side of that line.
Now, have you done or said anything that could be professionally damaging? What happens if your wife sees those texts/emails? Is she aware that you’re contacting her on the weekends? If not, you’re on some pretty shaky turf. If she does, you can always throw your wife under the bus and tell your co-worker your wife is uncomfortable with that and asked you to stop. Out of deference, you will. Actually, you may be able to use that regardless. If the woman has any integrity, she’ll accept it and respect you for it. If she ramps up or threatens you, you know the kind of person you’re dealing with.
The question isn’t if you can get out of this, the question is do you want to?
Your co-worker may find it a relief to return to treating you as a colleague rather than a friend or buddy. She may have realized that after-hours and weekend texts to a married man isn’t healthy for her. If not immediately, then eventually. If she wants to start a serious relationship with someone, the best way is for both parties to be unmarried.
This idea is gold, Kevin.
Even if Lee’s speculation isn’t actually how LO is feeling, acting as though it is would be really effective at breaking the limerence cycle. It’s a good way of framing the situation in a way that no contact (or limited, professional contact) is good for you and good for LO, and so everyone benefits.
@Scharnhost
Thanks for this. Your so right it’s not cold it’s professional. I hope I don’t have to tell her. She leaves end of jan so I just need to see one month through and on top of that I work from hom once a week so 17 working days I have to see her. Lol
So hopefully in that time she doesn’t notice me being aloof from fun and social interactions. Although she has to give me part of my Xmas present that didn’t arrive pre Xmas so that will get the heart racing again when she gives it.
Your question about wanting to get out of it is a good one as Most of me does so as to bring back my focus in life and be under this spell but part of me wants her as I am attracted to her and how she makes me feel.
@lee and @drl
This is an awesome way to look at it. And I have wondered if She realises that going on lunches and dinners one-to-one with me makes her realise that the man she is with has a wife or whether she just sees us as good friends as we have been for years and doesn’t think anything of it. But yeah this point is an excellent one and one I haven’t considered. Maybe she too will use the Xmas period to self reflect and cool things off from jan.
But come first week of jan we will both know if we got th job offer in a new company or not.
“And I have wondered if She realises that going on lunches and dinners one-to-one with me makes her realise that the man she is with has a wife or whether she just sees us as good friends as we have been for years and doesn’t think anything of it.”
In the end, it doesn’t matter what she thinks about it. What matters is how you behave within the boundaries to which YOU knowingly committed yourself. If your marriage isn’t satisfying your every need, it’s a darn good chance that it isn’t 100% satisfying to your wife either. NO marriage is 100% satisfying to both parties. That doesn’t give either person carte blanche to ignore it entirely. (Aside: I’m not suggesting you are doing this, but I am pointing out some popular stations used by people justifying poor decisions to themselves and getting angry when they are trusted by those they are betraying – don’t go there!)
Don’t gum it with Esther Perel’s b.s. EVER or you may find yourself being discussed in very disparaging terms over at chumplady.com Ditto for LO. Also consider http://www.mustbethistalltoride.com and Matt’s 14-part letter to sh*tty husbands (it applies to wives too, but he wrote it reflecting on his part in the demise of his marriage – so it had husbands mostly in mind).
In the meantime, you are colleagues. You are giving her more personal and professional space within which you can both grow.
I hope 2019 is a good year for you. Do you think you have a good chance of landing this new job? Does it come with more money too? Fingers crossed!
Thanks Lee
Have a good chance. 4 Candidates it went to the final round and there are two roles.
So a scenario is that we both get the roles. Then I will have to decide whether to take it or not as I deal with this limerence. Best scenario is that I get it and she loses out on this occasion. Selfish I know but I don’t think I can concentrate on that if she is there as well.
Well it’s now end of the holidays and work starts again tomorrow. I found this site 1.5 weeks ago and do find a positive difference already as not feel like just sinking my head in a pillow like I did early dec. I’m still on a journey but find that I am now more aware of what’s going on and that’s because of ALL OF YOU. So thank you to all of you for your time in helping me.
Having NC for 12 days and not seeing LO has helped. She did message me today to wish HNY. I know I’ve improved My awareness as I didn’t get so excited and respond straight away. Instead i withheld and responded 6 hours later with no question. But just a gesture of good will for 2019. Was hard but I did it.
So thank you all
You’re doing great. Keep it up. Professional detachment and distance. Colleagues, not buddies.
Happy 2019!
Thanks Lee. You’ve been helpful.
So 14 days I have to go in the office where we will be in same floor together. Then she leaves at end of jan. Other days either I’m working from home or she is. Sad that I’m counting down. But also not sad as I am letting go of what has been dragging me down.
She did contact me today to tell me she got the job that we both went for. There are two vacancies. I haven’t heard and if I don’t get it then that’s cool as I can’t be dealing with starting a new job and LO in my team!
Platinum lining to those dark clouds, right? Right!
Lee – absolutely.
My slight worry is that if I don’t get it and at the same time I’m practicing NIC ( not initiating contact) then she will think it’s because of the new job thing. As she isn’t aware of my limerence. I was even thinking of disclosing But not worth it now that She is going end of jan.
Well as some of you have taken the time to support me – I wanted to share that I didnt get the role and my LO did – as they had 2 roles i was worried i would end up in a new workplace again with LO – well luckily that wont happen now – so its goodbye to LO to a different country too! Im slightly gutted i didnt get the role too because it was good job but Im trying to remember that my wellbeing and emotional state is a priority at the moment and that being with LO in a new country/new job and SO there soo would mean that there would be lots of interactions as we would all be new there settling into new country so that could have played with my mental state a lot – so its a blessing really. LO just called me too 🙁 as wanted advice on whether to take the role or not as we have always helped each other in conversations. Anyway I supported her as a friend and actually didnt feel sad speaking to her – felt a little sad afterwards but am ok. I just hope she doesnt stay too much in touch with me when she is alone in a new country / new job asking for advice etc…. Must admit I felt good being an honest friend to her. But need to carry on with NC (i havnt broken it as she rang me and i discussed matters at hand nothing more !)
” Im slightly gutted i didnt get the role too because it was good job”
I’m sorry that didn’t work out differently. Then again, you can now focus on your current job and pick up new skills or improve in areas that will lead to a better job in 2019. Maybe you won’t have to pack up the family and move to a new country in order to get a better job.
I mean – it would be a grand adventure but it may be difficult for you and your wife to both land jobs in a new country, so there is that to keep in mind. Plus kids (do you have any?) are another layer of complexity.
” I just hope she doesnt stay too much in touch with me when she is alone in a new country / new job asking for advice etc…”
I suspect she will be asking for advice from people who are already there and can recommend places they know well, etc.
You got this, Kevin.
Shame about the job, Kevin, but as you say there are a lot of positives to be taken from this outcome. Most importantly, no contact can now happen naturally, and you are free from the day to day interactions with LO. If she does “reach out” in the future, you can just take progressively longer to respond, and keep it neutral. She’ll surely find new sources of support (which is better for everyone).
You should also take a lot of pride in how well you’ve handled this episode. It’s no small thing to face an emotional challenge like this, maintain your integrity through it, and learn deep lessons about yourself. Congrats!
Kevin,
I’m sorry you didn’t get the position.
Blessings are often delivered in the form of a closed door. I am glad you handled the situation with dignity. I would think it was doubly difficult to handle Limerence, temptation and proximity to LO without children involved. You really dodged a bullet. Have a great weekend with your SO.
Thank You Irene, Lee & Dr L
Yes it possibly is dodging a bullet as the thought of me and SO in a new country, and LO in the new country (its a small country) all settling in together and meeting up socially as we wouldnt know anyone else initially terrifies me on how I would feel emotionally PLUS trying to make a mark in the new job. LO would be living on her own and i know she would be dependent on me to help with things so all works out for the best in the end.
DR L – thanks for your comments but your posts have been my source of wealth in handling this episode so your a true selfless Gentleman. Praying that you get the best of everything in life.
Hope all are well and feeling lighter…infact my aim is to make the weight of my LO feel like a mere blade of grass on my forehead as opposed to the elephant weight at the moment (which is getting smaller 🙂 )
Enjoy the weekend folks
Hi all. Need some advice please.
So still maintaining NC over the weekend but finding it hard because when LO called me about advice on whether or not to take the new job (she is worried about living on her own in the new country and managing all the domestic stuff herself as she currently lives at home ), im sure she was close to tears as I could hear it in her voice the fear that was there. She did admit to me that she had a good cry when she heard she got the job as reality kicked in for her to live alone.
Because of our close friendship I feel compelled to stay in touch with her under the circumstance and check in with her to support her but obviously I’m trying a lot harder to just be a normal colleague and maintain NC. So part of me feels I’m not being a good friend . She has not said that to me as I did give over an hour of my time on the phone call on Friday which she thanked me for but I am just feeling that I am not doing enough. I picked up the phone a number of times to message her today but I thought I would come to you guys 1st to help defuse the thoughts in my head and maintain NC. But feeling slightly guilty too for not being there for her.
Any thoughts or words of wisdom would be much appreciated.
She is frightened about living on her own? She is an adult and if this is a real fear, she needs a good counselor.
Don’t be the yo-yo to her string, Kevin.
Also, this is exactly the time and situation when a woman should reach out to her girlfriends and family. Not a clearly smitten, married male co-worker.
She knows you have more than collegial thoughts. That Christmas present to her said it all. I hope she doesn’t decide to tell your wife about it. You didn’t tell your wife you got her a bath basket and you both had a laugh about how awkward it is – right?
Plus an hour on the phone is at least 45 minutes too long.
Tread lightly and retreat.
@Lee
thanks – yeah she has been pampered a lot at home so for a 36 yr old, yet to hit the real world.
Agree about not being the YO YO – having said that she wasnt the one reaching out this weekend it was me feeling I should check in with her – but after your posts i decided not too – so thanks. I do believe she is talking to a variety of people to get opinions too.
Wife not aware of bath gifts and LO doesnt know SO so that wont happen – thats all buried now and receipts probably recycled into something else by now.
Thanks
“when LO called me about advice on whether or not to take the new job (she is worried about living on her own in the new country and managing all the domestic stuff herself as she currently lives at home ), ”
Kevin – something else to consider is that her calling you, when you were both competing for the job, is not unlike rubbing it in your face. She didn’t call you to say she thought she might not be qualified for the JOB, she called to make you think about playing house with her.
Seriously. The woman is competent enough to land this job but she can’t manage paying rent? Shipping her furniture or buying stuff there? Cooking for herself? What can she not handle? Laundry?
It makes my Spidey-senses tingle. If she should pull this again, tell her you really can’t talk right now and perhaps she should discuss it with a girlfriend who knows her better. I don’t suppose your company has some sort of employee assistance for big promotions/transfers to a new area.
This is a big promotion within your company – correct? I don’t know why I have that idea in my head. She may be leaving your current employer entirely. No matter, if it’s a whole new company they are likely to have resources available to her in order to make the transition less fraught.
Even if it was totally innocent of her (which I doubt), it is another opportunity for you to stick to your boundaries regarding work life/family and home life. I’m friends with colleagues too but you have to work out for you and your family what and when it is approaching the boundaries.
I think you envision a nice picket fence between you and this woman. Maybe someday. For now, you need a moat with a hungry moat monster, a nice tall solid stone wall with only small narrow gate and a FABULOUS tree house for you and your wife. So to speak.
You can do it.
@Lee
yeah she has been spoilt at home so doing basic things will feel new to her when living out – she will manage but it will be a journey!
Even though it was same jobs we were not really competing as for me the pay was a drop, for her it would have been more. IT would have been nice to be offered but I did tell her that other interviews I have got a more suited to my seniority. So had told her that I probably wont go for it so we were open.
And yes the new company does have a relocation team which will help so in theory i shouldnt get a lot of the questions. Plus she has 3 sisters who she is close too and talks to about these type of things.
To be fair a lot of the problem is with me as I feel like a ‘bas*ard’ not checking in with her in this once in a life time move – last year I would have but now that I am encouraged by this blog I am limiting contact to Must have only until she leaves the company end of month.
I think an hour on the phone is enough support to be honest. I’m sure she’ll appreciate that you’ve helped, and it’s now time to give her space to make the right decision for her and her life. Her leaving the country is a blessing for you, so don’t risk that by giving her reasons not to stay, especially as you know they’re not real reasons.
I had a similar situation with my LO before she left. I helped her plan the next move, set her up with numerous interviews and recommended her to someone at the firm she eventually moved to. It was an intense period of interaction for us and certainly didn’t help my limerence at all. I did feel it was the right thing to do for her, and that I could then enter NC feeling I’d looked after her as best I could. She’s very young in professional terms and needed my direction. But now it’s time she figures it all out for herself.
You have to look after no.1 here and her presence is torturing you. You need to go into proper NC as soon as you can. Realistically that’s not until she leaves, but in the meantime you need to keep contact to an absolute minimum. That’s not 1hr phone calls!
@Vincent
Ok – valid point. Funny thing was after speaking on the phone i felt good that I could be a friend like any other friend. But yeah – dont plan on any long conversations. Its because she told me she had been crying – that hit the soft side in me. Hopefully that should be it now – atleast im not initiating contact. You guys saved me today!
Oh it’s not easy at all. It will feel just as wrong as it feels right, but that’s the limerence vs the logical side of your brain fighting it out. You want to help, but ultimately you have to remember you’re helping her at the expense of yourself. You go deeper into the mire each time you share an intimate moment like her being vulnerable to you. I know it very well.
My LO was in tears whilst talking with me about her career options as it was so daunting for her. I put my arms out to hug her and she just grabbed me and hugged me so tightly. I had to walk away at that point because I could feel myself getting emotional too. It was a rare, real, genuine moment of affection. On the flip side I knew as a married man I just couldn’t be having those with another woman, and in a way it helped my resolve to end it when she moved on.
A little late to this, but delighted to see the LwL community jumping in with great advice 🙂
This is a critical moment, Kevin, as once a limerent resolves to distance themselves, LO can often have some sort of emotional crisis that starts to draw them back. A good way to look at it is that in the bigger picture the most supportive thing you can do for LO is to continue to detach. There’s no need to be cold about it – and you clearly aren’t as a 1 hr phone call is very supportive! – but to make it clear from your actions that you are no longer as available for emotional support is ultimately better for both of you. She needs to find independent help, and you being less responsive will facilitate that.
Both of you will be better off, because of your resolve. Well done for not making that call!
@Vincent
Your story is too similar to mine – but if you dont mind I will learn from you and not get too involved in her job move too as that will slow my recovery. Sounds like you are in a better place though. I like what you say about brain vs Limerence and putting myself first – will remember that.
Did you find that now that she has gone out of the office Limerence is going down at a good rate and you can see the light…?
It’s a little bit better each day. So long as I’m busy it’s OK, but then someone will mention her name and I’ll be back thinking about her again for a bit. I have noticed that I have a range of triggers still, such as when I get off the train in the mornings i usually get a few WhatsApp messages delivered at the same time, which buzzes my watch. It used to invariably be from LO with something funny, gossip or telling me she was running late. I had the buzz as I got off the train this morning and my heart raced for a brief second only for it to be a message from my mother…
Since I went NC I’ve found myself thinking about when she might get in contact – Xmas, NYE, starting her new job. They’ve all passed now and she’s not contacted me. So now there’s no real reason to contact, no event on the horizon. We might bump into each other I suppose, or she gets drunk and texts, but otherwise that’s it now. That should help get her out of my mind.
Thanks all for your help – yes Dr L is right that this community just helps each other out – you all helped me and stopped me from messaging LO yesterday so this thing is working!!
@Dr L yes this is critical phase now as I am not more educated now on Limerence and what I need to do and have resolved to remove LO out of my head and the way I feel about it all.
Im back in the office today – I did get a message this morning to say “thanks for all the support in helping me decide to go for the job or not, your a really good friend and im lucky i can call you a friend”….to which i just said no problem as usually i may have gone all sweet LOL….
anyway she is taking the job so thats good.
Until then NC initiated by me and all professional.
Have a good week all – your all awesome
@vincent – looks like your in the clear as those are milestones when LO’s and limerants can interact – the only other one is Birthdays!.
So you could be clear. If she has drunk texted before then yeah then may do – hopefully you too can avoid drunk text as that yeah is a dangerous one.
This is such a great site, thank you DrL for creating this. I’m deeply ashamed to confess I’m a serial Limerent and suffering terribly from my latest bout with this demon. It’s my darkest secret, and has poisoned my life repeatedly over the last 30 years. Now it’s the worst of the worst, I’m “in limerence” with my client…again! I do not want to be thinking about her constantly, she is not available to me for numerous reasons, not the least of which is she’s my client, we’re both married, she’s ten years younger and waaay hotter than me. How can a grown man and accomplished professional possibly fall into such an absurd situation…again?!?!
Worst of all is the guilt I feel toward my sweet, loving wife, who has no idea this is going on. She certainly does not deserve to be (emotionally & sexually) abandoned because of a ridiculous fantasy. To wit, she just popped into my office with an affogato, as I was writing this comment. What’s the emoji for feeling deep shame?
I’m really not sure what to do (other than drain this site in its entirety to learn everything I can about this psychosis). NC is not an option as I work with her daily and my livelihood depends on this. Disclosure would be torture, suicide, and deep shame all wrapped up with a bow.
This has happened to me repeatedly over the years, and has cost me more than one job and a marriage. It’s enough to make one wonder what’s the point…
Not so pathetic that I’m looking for sympathy, just looking for ideas!
Welcome Misery (as it were…)
Ha! Lots of people here have asked themselves that question. There’s a short answer and a long answer. The short one is that LO has got just the right combination of appearance and personality to connect with something deep within your subconscious, and trigger all the neurochemical storms needed for a limerence episode. The long answer is that some complicated combination of inherent traits and life experiences have set you up with just the right vulnerability for this type of person, and the only way to get to the bottom of it is to do the deep work of understanding yourself at a fundamental level. Simple!
There are some techniques for dealing with a limerence emergency in the here and now (try downloading the “Take Control” book as a good starting point if you haven’t already), and there is a lot on the site to peruse. If nothing else, it is a good diversion from ruminating about LO.
Good luck and best wishes.
First time poster deep in limerence looking for help! I am married and am limerant for a co worker who is married too. This will be my 2nd LE the first over 10 years ago now was reciprocated became an emotional affair but she was unavailable and eventually chose not to leave her SO. Cue heartbreak!
Current LO had me at first sight. Elegant, attractive and confident. A move to a new office put us on the same floor with little more than a dozen other people though there is a physical distance between us.
Our departments interact and I used that as an excuse to get to know LO better.
An afternoon work bonding event was the trigger point for me as we ended up on the same team and i got to spend time to bask in her company.
We exchanged e mails in the following months mostly initiated by me but unlike my 1st LO never crossing any line and in general my gut feeling is that LO likes me but not in the way I would want.
For the past few months we have e mail contact most days often started with a necessary work issue that I will generally turn into general coversation. We will also talk a couple of times a day in our small office as I make a point of going over to her desk once a day.
My colleagues tease me that she is my work wife although I think I am restrained in my contact.
The buzz generated by what I consider a good day with LO is amazing, a personal e mail unprompted ( rare but has happened! ) or a day where I look back and we have an e mail trail of 20 plus e mails. Or perhaps a longer physical conversation than normal.
LO has confided some personal issues to me ( uh Oh!) and I need little exuse to divulge a few personal things too. I personally dread the though of a works evening do with alcohol and everything that brings and we have spoken about standing together at such events giving each other moral support. I know however from experience that we would spend some time together but she will migrate towards more like minded party people as the evening progresses whereas I would just like everyone else in the building to leave!
I have decided to minimize contact as I cannot cope with the highs and lows and can see my relationship with SO suffering and I don’t want that. I only really want LO to feel the same about me I wouldn’t dream of being a home wrecker. No contact is impossible due to work and similar to advice on here for a week now I have not initiated e mail contact and kept any contact polite friendly but business like. I have reduced the physical visits to her but cannot cut out completely as it would just look weird. I have tried this once before recently and didn’t visit her for a day or so and got a ” are u ok? ” e mail. Of course I fell off my white charger and right back to square one , happily so as she had e mailed me !
I am more determined this time but it’s hard. She has done nothing wrong and it feels like I am sulking with her and she us sure to ask again soon what is up. Part of me wants her too of course and part of me wants that to lead to disclosure but that is definitely not a good idea. It’s a small office I know she does not mirror my feelings for her and the aftermath would be awkward . I am senior to her too which adds to the reasons not to disclose.
Writing this itself is cathartic almost and I feel this week is going to be tough even more so if she challenges me. I hope my slow staged withdrawal process is enough not to alert her too much but let’s see.
I may not be available to respond too quickly to any advice but it would be appreciated.
Hi Jamie,
It sounds like you are doing everything right now, to fade out the limerence. Staged withdrawal definitely sounds like the right strategy. The other thing I would suggest is that you start focusing more time and effort on improving your relationship with SO. Having a positive goal in that sense is going to help shift your mindset from “I’m losing LO” to “I’m regaining my marriage, which I’d been risking”.
If you need some good fodder for “deprogramming” you could try imagining that your co-workers are joking about your “work wife” to your face, but behind your back that are mocking you for your lack of self control and your pathetic lovestruck behaviour. I’m not suggesting this is true! But it’s an effective way of linking negative emotions to day dreams about LO.
Finally, you could consider disclosing to your wife. It’s a hell of a motivator to stick to the honest path, cut contact, and let’s her know what’s going on in her life. It also helps remind you that this is a mess that you have created, and re-commits you to the idea that you and your wife are a couple who work together to solve problems. More thoughts on this here.
Speaking as the spouse, disclosure is a good idea but it’s significantly better to have a plan in mind to handle the situation at work. When you disclose make certain to tell her that you have a plan and what you have done to break the cycle. Ask for her ideas. Listen to her.
Sounds as though it’s time to plan activities to do with your wife too.
At this point, I don’t agree with Jamie disclosing to his SO. If he knows where he is and is committed to getting out of the LE and improving his marriage, disclosing to his SO may not help that. Disclosing to his SO may reframe his entire marriage and maybe not positively. If she trusted him before, she may not after he discloses. You can’t automatically assume that your SO is loving, trusting, stable, and can handle surprises well.
Once you throw that switch, you can’t undo it and you may radically alter the arc of a lot of lives. You really can’t predict how your SO will react disclosure with 100% certainty. You may think you know how he/she will respond but hit the right trigger and all hell can break loose.
I remember Sophie’s husband. He didn’t think what she was doing was a big deal. Take that to the extreme and disclosure to your SO can come across as self-serving and punitive, e.g., “Why are you telling me this?” Disclosure to his SO comes with as much risk as it does benefit. And, disclosure is a risk you don’t automatically have to assume.
At this point, I’d be more concerned about his image in the office. He’s providing a source of entertainment to them. Who needs NetFlix when you can watch it and get paid for it? Toss in there’s an implied imbalance in power and someone may be able to leverage that against him.
But Scharnhorst – his colleagues are already calling her his “work wife” and if one of them makes that sort of remark around his family, or in front of Jamie’s wife at a function, before he has made changes and the snickers have died away, it could become much worse.
What’s faster than the speed of light? Gossip.
So he may not want to use the words “limerence” or “office wife” but he *may* want to tell his wife he has had flights of fancy for another woman at the office but he’s not interested in them continuing and here’s how he is ensuring he doesn’t cause any harm to the marital unit. She may smile and tell him she’s dealt with the odd office crush herself, but she chalked it up to a passing fancy. That he is the Real Deal and he is still #1 to her.
Or not. But if word gets to her through back channels, that is more likely to hurt (it’s humiliating to be the last to know) and potentially cause fallout. So at the very least, commit to your plan to backpedal and limit your emails. If anyone in the IT department read them, would you be embarrassed? Your wife?
Sticking solely to work topics is best.
“I need little exuse to divulge a few personal things too.”
Uh-oh. You need to shore up your boundaries. If you wouldn’t share the same information with LO if your wife was at your side, then don’t share them at all. Think of it as safeguarding your marriage. Plus that is courting behavior. “Getting to know you, getting to know all about you!” Nice in songs and movies, not so great when you’re already in a committed relationship.
“I personally dread the though of a works evening do with alcohol and everything that brings”
Stay away from alcohol at those work functions at all costs. It won’t help your situation.
You can pump the limbic brakes. That’s why we have big wrinkly brains – to override our impulses.
Lee,
I agree with you about inadvertent disclosure at a work function. He’s in a minefield and he’ll have to actively manage getting out of it. Disclosure is not the only way out of it.
Risk = Threat x Vulnerability x Consequence
If his co-workers pose a threat of disclosure, he can reduce his risk by disclosing to his SO or he can keep the threat (i.e. coworkers) away from the vulnerability (i.e., SO) until the snickers die down. But, disclosure to his SO comes at a different risk. He should also prepare for the possibility of inadvertent disclosure. One thing that made my LE easier to deal with was there were no professional implications for me to have to consider.
As Sophie pointed out, Jamie knows his situation better than we do and DrL covers a lot of it in the blog she linked.
@Jamie
Only you know your situation well enough to know whether disclosing to SO would be helpful, and your motives for disclosing.
The LE made me realise that my marriage hadn’t been working – long before LO arrived on the scene.
Disclosing to SO, once I finally got through to him that it was a big problem, eventually lead to us having marriage counselling which really has helped a lot.
My other reason for disclosing was that thanks to the honesty of one of my closest friends, I knew I needed therapy. I needed SO on board with me having therapy as spending £50/week on that when I was earning £70/week at the time, meant I definitely needed his support!
The accountability aspect has helped too.
Just because it was the right thing for me, doesn’t mean it’s the right route for everyone. Dr L has a brilliant post on that https://livingwithlimerence.com/2018/05/15/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other
Good luck!!
Thank you everyone for their advice. I do not currently plan to disclose to either SO or LO. Both are entries into the unknown where currently I feel i can put the brakes on and withdraw tactfully from LO without arousing suspicion. Remaining business like and friendly but no more personal disclosures and definitely no work events with alcohol.
There is one function a year with families and I want to be in a position that I am comfortable at that event not worried by any potential meeting
I hope I am not too late to move away from the work wife tag though I realise this may stick a little.
I am committed to my plan of subtle withdrawal and focusing more attention on my SO and am actively looking forward to that. I just hope I can lessen the contact without offending SO or raising suspicion but I will have to deal with that if and when it arises.
For now I just take one day at a time..
Sounds like a good plan.
Since you two talk, is she aware of any of your hobbies, interests, etc.?
If she is, you frame your reduced contact in that context. Do you play golf? Tell her your new goal is to break 80 and you’re spending time online reading golf tips. Go out for lunch and buy some tees. Come up with a viable reason for not hanging around her office. Got kids? Tell her you’ve been researching college funding options. Look at a few to have some browser history. Tell her your thinking of remodeling the bathroom and you’re looking at tile samples. (That’s a really good one since most men would rather die than look at tile samples but stay away from fabric stores. No woman will believe that). Stay away from common interests.
The point is don’t make reduced contact about her.
Sounds like a solid plan and I hope it works in the near and long-term. Best wishes to you and yours.
Hi All
Some of you will remember that I posted about LE for a co worker and that she was gonna leave the company end of Jan 2019 . So she did and I had limited contact which helped.
She got a job in a great company abroad… But… I also did too and started a month after her in the same place.
I had to weigh up the opportunity Vs my Limerence and the opportunity won.. but now I dont have LC like I did when we were not in the same work place.
Plus we are in new country so have been helping each other out although I have been a bit reserved in that. My SO coming soon in a month too. Im being careful but keep finding myself getting down when I should be excited and happy about new career and new country….. we are not exactly in same team but our teams work hand in hand.
Luckilyh its a big campus with no fixed seating so not always in the same space as LO 8 hours a day which is good. But still, she does message me about having lunch and getting train together and spending spare time now and then (she is not becoming needy or anything actually)….
Im going to reign it in and hope she doesnt notice as much as she too will make new friends as well and less reliance on me….but like i said she is not all reliant on me as she has been here a month anyway – but in my first week she was ever so caring about me settlign in etc… which was nice and made me down as Limerence came back and I knew i cant have her.
Any tips on what to do and rules / boundaries i shoudl have for myself. One rule I did since 1 Jan is not inititiaing contact unless work related – that I have done till now and broken twice since then before coming to new country – so i can stick to my rules.
I have signed up for the course too.
any advice thoughts workds of encouragement – welcome
thanks
“Ever since his admission, he would refer to (co-worker) in present tense, all the while claiming he wasn’t in touch. Perhaps he wasn’t, but she was still very much in his mind. I finally realized I don’t want to be in a relationship with somebody who is constantly thinking about another woman. It took me a while, after having my soul broken and stomped on, to realize that I am strong.
I believed myself strong to stay, but I was strong enough to leave.”
For those who are preoccupied with another person, to the detriment of their primary intimate relationship – this may eventually apply to you. Is it worth it?
So as some of you know from my other comments, I’m lime rent for a co-worker 20 years my junior (I’m her boss’s boss). We’ve gone out on dates and made out for a week but then after a period of hot and cold (mostly cold), she’s told me she’s met someone else but she still wants to be “BFFs in the office”. During the long downside tail of our relationship, I became increasingly depressed and anxious, texting with little to no answers. I eventually sought therapy and also found this wonderful site.
We’ve now had 2 weeks of NC (only because she was on holiday) with no texts either way. I had made an action plan in advance of her coming back today (moving desks, booking external lunches, etc.) but she ended up being home sick! It feels very anti-climactic. Of course, I know I partly wanted to see her and that’s why I’m disappointed. The impulse to text her, scroll through old pictures or slip into a daydream is stronger than ever. I’ve resisted so far.
My therapist also made a few observations that may be relevant to others limerent for co-workers: by implicitly disclosing, I’ve handed her a hand grenade with which she can blow up my family, my career and the rest of my life at any time of her choosing. My therapist is convinced this is an enabling LO, needing validation and keeping a coterie of interested men like me in orbit around her. My therapist therefore also cautioned that full NC or LC could make LO feel rejected and she could lash out. So she advised, for example, keeping my plan of moving desks but still asking LO how her holiday was. This balancing act is going to be more difficult than I thought…
Ask your therapist if she recommends the Grey Rock Method. Unfortunately, your LO has leverage and may decide to use it. At this point, your goal may be to drift as far down on her list as you can get and live with it.
But, listen to your therapist.
Fred, very few people understand limerence and that includes therapists unfortunately. She’s almost certainly right in her diagnosis, that she’s an enabling LO who wants validation from lots of men. But you have to do what’s best for you. Be civil sure, but follow your plan. Move desks, draw the boundaries that should have been there, and make it clear with your actions that the relationship is now strictly professional. She’s met someone else anyway, she’ll move on to a new office BFF sure enough, and she’ll eventually get bored and leave and then you’ll be free. Keep your eyes of the limerence-free prize.
Thanks Scharnhorst and Vincent. I googled “Grey Rock Method” and it may be an option although it’s very out of character for me as I take the stage every Friday and present to my extended team, usually lead every meeting I’m in, regale my colleagues with colourful anecdotes etc.
And Vincent, thanks for bolstering my strategy. I know seeing her with a new office BFF will be hard but that is my way out. I too believe she’ll be bored and leave – that seems consistent with her personality and her statements. However, she’s only been here four months so it may be a while… In the meantime, I’ll draw the boundaries and try to choose the correct course of action in all my moments of choice.
Wow she doesn’t waste time! Only just arrived in the office and already made out with her boss’ boss!! There’s a chance she’s cynically planned all of this of course, gone straight to the top to curry favour. No wonder she wants to stay BFFs, suits her career plans I’m sure.
I say all of that having been in the same position. My LO, 20 years younger, effectively hooked me in over the course of about 6m and I eventually brought her into my team. It wasn’t ever physical but I think there were daddy issues at play, and a colleague referenced it the other day saying that “she clearly loved having you looking after her”. Which I thought was an interesting observation. If I could go back I’d draw the boundaries and not get intimate and co-dependent in the way we did.
You’ve got a chance to correct things now before it all blows up. In fact, you should read this comment to me when I was at your stage from a poster called Mark:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/2018/07/19/displacement-activities/#comment-1966
Thanks Vincent – that was very helpful and thanks for linking to Mark’s comment as well.
Yeah, she didn’t waste any time: I think our summer party was 3 weeks after she joined: she made sure to sit next to me and after a few drinks tell me that her last “boyfriend” was my age (20 years older than her) and her boss too… We were only mildly inappropriate at that party and still I felt a pit in my stomach come Monday morning. Now we’ve had multiple dates outside work, escalating to some passionate kissing and touching – so I’m literally at her mercy at this stage.
I hear she’s well enough to come back to work tomorrow so that’s when my deep work, reading this site, going to therapy and following Dr. L’s course all comes to a head. Balancing a staged withdrawal to limited contact while not pissing her off will be a tough act. But then again, she hasn’t texted me these last 2 weeks and our last conversation was about her saying she’s moved on and all this angst is just in my head… (Then a wonderful warm hug and a revealing, super cute picture of her walking down the street on WhatsApp)
Sorry to use this as my daily journal but writing about my struggles and hearing from y’all really helps me.
So LO was supposed to come back to the office today after two weeks holiday (NC) and two days off sick. I got to the office early (she’s always late) and went to my new desk on another floor. Has an early external meeting so I press the down button on the elevator and when the doors slide open, guess who’s the only one in there, ready to get off? That’s right. LO. To quote Depeche Mode, “I don’t want to start any blasphemous rumors but I think that God’s got a sick sense of humor…”
I’m pretty proud of myself though. No hug, just a friendly “How was your holiday?” and then excusing myself as I had to run to my meeting. So a “step up” in moment of choice! Seeing her brought everything back though. I admit I stammered, my heart is racing, the elevator still had her scent and how my presentation at this external meeting will go is anybody’s guess.
As I walked to the tube I repeated my mantra: “I’m not special to her. She’s bad for me. She’s like a drug. She’s heroin. She can destroy my family and my career.” But damn if she isn’t all glimmery and sparkly too… :/
Well done!
Mantra’s are good. When I first went NC, my mantra was “Stay away from that woman!” It worked ok. But, she’s in the mantra.
Since I had some mini-relapses recently, I needed a new mantra. My new mantra when I start thinking of her is, “You have better things to do.” No focus on her.
Fred, it certainly is a struggle. Many of us used (and still use) this site as a way to release feelings. And I used (and still use) this site to hear from others on their own situations. I can relate so much to how you are feeling, and I reflect upon how I would have done anything to “fix” my mind. ANYTHING. I feel that I owe it to others to “pay it forward” by acknowledging that I’m listening and I will try to share whatever relevant info that I can. Coming to this site also allows me to focus on whatever remains of my LE, and what I need to/should be doing.
It is unfortunate that managing this condition is similar to having an extra full-time job (with overtime) when you don’t really have the time. I hope your meeting went well.
Thanks Scharnhorst. Mantras are good and can both break reverie and help you “behave” in moments of choice. I sometimes say them out loud.
I ran into LO again as I was going out to lunch. I was chatting to another attractive female colleague so I was in a “position of strength”. LO kinda grimaced at me as I side stepped to let her pass (showing off her bare mid-riff ‘natch).
One interesting observation: She wore sunglasses in both our interactions so I haven’t seen her eyes today which of course would tell me a lot (and as we know the glimmer is often tied to the eyes). Don’t know if she’s hiding her feelings or trying to disconnect (or just trying to look cool). I do know my most vivid memories of kissing her were her eyes, wet with abandon with dilated pupils. And now they’ve been hidden from me. Good, I guess. :/
Thanks Thinker. Your support really means more than you know – I certainly appreciate it, especially as my situation seem quite similar to yours. The meeting actually went ok. Next week, we’re welcoming a group of students doing a 6w internship which I’m sponsoring but LO is project managing. And they will sit on my new floor so she’ll have a reason to come up there… Oh well, more opportunity to practice my tactics and moments of choice.
So final update for the day. LO reached out via our company chat re the project she is managing and where she wanted me to present our company strategy. Entirely reasonable. I answered professionally and after half an hour delay (according to plan) but had to swing by to go thru the slides. Once her boss left we chatted a little about her holiday and then we walked out of the office together. Luckily two other colleagues called me back so I left her on the landing where she patiently waited for me until I texted her that I was stuck (aw!). She sent me a cute picture of her and a cat and despite promising otherwise I responded immediately, again being the last to text. Damnit. But it could’ve gone a lot worse and those two colleagues saved me from another “down step” on the road to recovery I suppose, but I am a little disappointed in myself.
” I texted her that I was stuck (aw!). She sent me a cute picture of her and a cat…”
Yeah, don’t beat yourself up for slipping a little. She wanted that reply from you or she would have let it go without comment, or a generic reply. Sending a CUTE photo of HERSELF and a cat is a blinking neon sign to get your attention and to make it very difficult for you to ignore her.
Practice, Grasshopper. Lots of practice. Don’t cross that t! Don’t dot that i!
Fred,
Does your phone have a timer? Next time you get a non-work related text from her, set the timer for 10 minutes. When it goes off, see if you still want to respond. If you do, set it for another 10 minutes. Keep doing it until the urge goes away. If she asks you in person why you didn’t respond, lie to her and say you were in the middle of something or tell her you wanted to wait until you saw her in person.
Excellent technique, Scharnhorst, I’ll try that one too.
Thanks for the support Lee. Yeah, I think I can let that one slide. And that’s a good idea Scharnhorst. I even have a timer in my Apple Watch.
Having survived my first LO day after NC, I think I may survive this. I also finally got practical experience of what Dr L and y’all have been advising. It’s only now the penny has dropped. I don’t have to think or feel right, I just have to ACT right. If in every interaction, I don’t take or allow the conversation in the wrong (intimate) direction and if I don’t text or seek meetings outside work the. It doesn’t matter that my heart is breaking, that my mind is racing and I feel like shit. Actually doing the right thing will in time lessen those feelings. It’s a tough struggle but like the AA says “it works if you work it”!
We can do this
After many starts and stops I’ve got the following boundaries which i learnt from Dr L’s course. May help you and not make you feel so bad and give the impression of going cold turkey
– no initiating non work messages
– if she initiates non work message I cap to 7 responses only so be brief, informative and friendly
– only group lunches and coffee breaks so the conversations are more diluted
I’m on day 17. Yes I’m tracking it. Reinforces to me that I can do this and build my confidence.
It’s hard yes. Very. But what’s harder is seeing the vision of where I could be in six months time if I don’t take no action and how my life will deteriorate.
Thanks Kevin! It helps to know others are “working it” at the same time. I’m on Day 21 of deciding to do something but the first 18 were NC “gifted me” by LO being away. I agree it helps to have easy to remember rules of thumb. Mine are similar to yours except I only have a 10 min delay on answering if she initiates text messages and I have also added the obvious “no social media”.
So yesterday at a team dinner (no LO), when my direct reports got tipsy enough to work up the courage, they asked me what was going on with LO. One of the most junior even called her “your fling” but quickly backtracked when I asked what he meant. I was mortified (and obviously not as discrete as I thought). Turns out they were referencing the summer party and how she’d been all over me there (where nothing actually happened) so I could honestly deny it. One of my female direct reports was particularly direct and said it was obvious LO liked me the best of all the interested men in the office, much to the dismay of the “young stallions” and that lots of people thought she was a “gold digger” for going after a C-level exec so publicly and obviously.
So with this knowledge, I guess all of our (less innocent) lunches, coffee breaks, chats by her desks etc are seen by others in the office as confirmation / continuation of what they thought they saw at the summer party. And while they’re wrong about that particular event (I behaved responsibly and got her home safe when she was a bit too drunk) they’d be right about the rest as we then flirted and dated our way to second base (outside the office) and then had a slow motion car crash of our relationship as LO went cold and started to withdraw.
Good thing she was so adamant we’d never make out surreptitiously in the office…
My female colleague also said LO was “drop dead gorgeous” which made me feel oddly proud…
Fred, This is a good wake up call for you to really work on getting over LO. She already holds the grenade in her hands to blow up your life, that’s bad. But you don’t want to lose the respect of your peers and stakeholders at work and be defined through that.
“(I behaved responsibly and got her home safe when she was a bit too drunk)”
Oh stars and stones – this is what cabs, uber and lyft are for! To keep people from being in compromising situations that could lead to police reports and ugly expensive public washing of dirty laundry. No one looks good under a microscope.
Yeah, she has the grenade and is probably playing with the idea of pulling the pin.
“She can destroy my family and my career.”
Don’t think she doesn’t know it too. In fact, you’ve gone to second base with her, your subordinates and colleagues have twigged to your fascination with her, there are jealous younger men – you never know when or who will tell your SO (it sounds like you have one and I can’t remember if you do or not).
The event gives you a potential way out. The next time you and your LO chat, you tell her that people have seen what’s going on and have started talking. That doesn’t look good for either of you and from now on your behavior becomes beyond reproach and mean it.
The upside is it’s not a direct attack on her. If she insists on pursuing the LE, you may want to talk to HR. I’d also be looking at ways to get rid of her. Can you ship her far away and make it look like it’s to her advantage?
You need to drive the bus before she does.
Or, scharnhorst, she might actually see him saying it looks bad as a thrill, a leverage. It could show that Fred is scared word gets out and uses that against him.
If co-workers ask her what’s been going on, it is likely she spills the beans and tells one of the others about it. If one person knows, everyone knows. People talk, unfortunately.
Ok now you’re freaking me out people, which is probably a good thing. Last week my therapist said I should be afraid every time I look at her and act accordingly.
My story is scattered across different blog posts and comments but yeah I have an SO. My LO blew hot and cold after a week of reciprocation then mostly cold then after weeks of agony and unanswered texts told me she’d met someone else but not to worry as we could still be BFFs in the office. So she’s ended the LE (her part at least) and I’m left trying to pick up the pieces of myself that aren’t beyond repair.
We work together so NC doesn’t work but I’m working on withdrawal to LC and have had no social media or other contact for 18 days. She seems to mostly be avoiding me too, wearing sunglasses indoors, dodging eye contact etc so I just have to keep up LC and make the right choices in moments of choice. Like I said in another comment, I guess it doesn’t matter what I think or feel or how much I hurt as long as I do and act and say the right things that will put my on the path to recovery and towards the end of this LE.
Today was tough though as I cried at my therapy session and then bumped into her as I came back to the office and she stood there, glibly unaware of all the turmoil, midlife worries, unrequited yearning she’s unleashed in me.
“I should be afraid every time I look at her”
I think you have it lucky; I AM afraid every time I look at my LO, and I spend most of the year in school with her. It’s hell. I would love to be not terrified when I saw or heard her.
What did you therapist have to say about your SO?
What has your SO said since this set in? If she used to bring up that you seemed “off” but she hasn’t said anything in awhile and/or she seems a bit flat, you may be in the eye of the hurricane. Seriously, word may have gotten back to her and she may be running a relationship calculus program.
Neither of these are questions you are obligated to answer, obviously, but you may want to consider them to some degree.
“My female colleague also said LO was “drop dead gorgeous” which made me feel oddly proud…”
If your SO gets wind of that statement and your response…
“wearing sunglasses indoors”
That isn’t subtle. It invites questions from others and then *sniff*, *a little sob that catches in her throat*, *rapid blinking*, your goose could be cooked.
Treat her like a bomb – not a bombshell.
I love the fact that Lee always has the SO in focus. This is what it comes down to, think about SO. Think about SO and what this means to her, how much you hurt her with this (Lee, I needed this reminder too, thank you)
Thanks Lee. We haven’t really talked much about SO yet in therapy. Focus has been on surviving the here and now but we started doing deep work yesterday so no doubt it will come up. No I don’t think SO knows or suspects. I’ve been with the firm less than a year and she hasn’t even met anyone there. Regardless, of course I’m trying to rekindle our relationship and focus more on her. My therapist says she usually works with minimizing shame but in my case she wants me to feel more shame for what I’ve done to SO.
You’re welcome Sarah. I know Mr. Lee has a history of treating me and our kids like toys he can put on a shelf and expect us to be in stasis or something until he is ready to play with us. He often was angry that he was cut out of our lives when he was busy immersed in his world. You can only ask, invite, beg and cajole so often before you stop extending a hand, accept that the answer is always “no – I don’t want to, you deal with it!” before you believe it. Don’t phone it in! He still complains sometimes but subsides when I point out that I was the one logging the hours of time, money, conversations, P/T conferences, dentists, doctors, I kept up with my interests, family, friends and career, etc. while he was huddled in the den (feeling sorry for himself or angry that we weren’t sitting around gazing at him adoringly).
“My therapist says she usually works with minimizing shame but in my case she wants me to feel more shame for what I’ve done to SO.”
Well, that’s a relief. After all, feeling up another woman behind your wife’s back is a violation of the marital contract of exclusivity. At least she isn’t blaming your wife for her part in making you sneak around.
So…have you read up the HR manual? She has texts on her phone – will any of them get you fired, divorced or both? Is there any way to get yourself as far away from her within your job as possible? If shr gets transferred she could claim it is retaliatory for ending the “coziness”. If she gets promoted it will demoralize others on your team and possibly make them very angry because she would have effectively have “slept her way” up the career ladder. Anything you do re: HER career or position can blow up. Specta ularly. What can you control within YOUR position description?
Gah – what a frightening situation.
“…wearing sunglasses indoors…” sounds like she is a little drama queen. Like that’s not going to draw attention to her having peers ask her. If her colleagues start to suspect something, they will ask her about it. People are noisy.
Try your hardest to LC as much as you can, avoid being alone with her at all cost, and ALWAYS stay professional. Treat her like you would anyone else.
Yep she’s a little drama queen alright. And one hell of an enabling LO.
Thanks for the advice and the support. My problem is although I know what the right thing to do is, I secretly just want to get back in her good graces and carry on where we left off. So I just need to act right, even if I feel wrong. My therapist says to try to distance myself from her not ensnare her again. Wise woman.
I’m in the same boat, Fred. Not over LO yet. And in dangerous waters tomorrow. Head’s spinning. Must stay strong myself. Look… Mind over matter, you can do it!
Thanks Sarah. Hope it went well today.
Hey guys! I’ve been quiet for a week. Guess which of these things I’ve been doing: 1) Living purposefully; 2) Diving headfirst back into LE with LO. Yeah, sorry Dr. L but it’s the latter.
So in my therapy session last week, she suggested that all this obsessing about NOT obsessing about LO was actually keeping me engaged in the LE. That the mantras, forcing away thoughts or reveries and even posting here on LWL.com was a way of staying in the LE instead of focusing on the root problem of my marriage not being satisfying. Instead I should normalise things with LO, keep withdrawing and not fret so much about it all.
I’m not saying my therapist was wrong but in trying to normalise things with LO, I started noticing all the glimmery things that made me go crazy for her to begin with. We met up in the office, she texted me to say how happy she was to have me to talk to and confide in, how she could be herself with me. We planned and met up for lunch.
I know people, I know. It went from “Oh, this is nice. We’re friends.” to “Wonder how I can spice things up again” to “OMG you’re perfect in every way, why don’t you want me?!”. She even sent me a selfie from the shower (expert angles though so no naughty bits showing).
At lunch yesterday, she was finally open to talking about why things with us ended so soon and why she went cold. (Lee, you’ll like this). She said she actually tried to see things from my perspective, being married with kids, and realised I was in over my head and backed off and tried to cool things down as I was going full speed ahead (limerent that I am). Which actually was kinda sweet. She said I shouldn’t beat myself up about anything I said or did but rather that my situation didn’t allow us to go further. She grasped my hand and said we clicked mentally, emotionally and that our physical attraction was both powerful and electric but that it couldn’t be. And now she was in love with someone else. I don’t think you get more (or better) closure than that folks.
I got to experience my devastation all over again. I’m not OK but it was important for me to know what I’d experienced and thought I saw in her eyes those nights was real and not just a figment of my imagination. And that she was being the more adult of the two of us (despite being 20 years younger). I’m not sure how to end this rambling post but that’s where we are. She’ll be in the office Monday. I’ll be in hell.
I’m not either, but her advice did put you right back in harm’s way! Good that the outcome was OK, and I hope the closure means you’re able to manage your limerence come Monday. Lucky that LO didn’t suggest one last fling, though, eh…?
You might also want to delete the shower selfie 🙂
He should archive somewhere in case he needs evidence she was not an innocent party.
Good point. I need to up my cynicism quota.
Following up on the therapist advice:
I get the sentiment here. It’s not dissimilar to “focus on your own purposeful goals”, but the suggestion to normalise things with LO suggests that the therapist is a non-limerent.
“Just drink socially and don’t worry about it so much”.
Thanks guys. I guess there was also a difference in how the advice was given and how I implemented it. My therapist did not want me to go to lunch or start texting LO. She wanted me to stop fretting about not doing so. I just failed to draw the line and choose wisely in several moments of choice.
Yep, it’s definitely wise to work on making LO less central, and that is where the purposeful living pillar of recovery comes in. You have to have positive pursuits of your own to act as an attractive goal, as well as doing the work of making rumination and interactions with LO more negative.
You better do something with that shower selfie to underscore it was unsolicited because your SO will rightly throw you out for it.
Oh wait, you charged a flight for LO to/from Paris for her too. You might as well tell your wife, “I’d like you better if you weren’t so old and used up. Here is your competition. Now dance!”
I have no words for you.
For your wife though – http://www.chumplady.com and to seek an attorney.
“She said I shouldn’t beat myself up about anything I said or did but rather that my situation didn’t allow us to go further. She grasped my hand and said we clicked mentally, emotionally and that our physical attraction was both powerful and electric but that it couldn’t be. And now she was in love with someone else. I don’t think you get more (or better) closure than that folks.”
You MPDG put you on notice. She “closed the books.” You’ve been warned. If you say or do anything and it blows up on you, she’ll say it was your fault. It won’t matter if she starts it, she warned you. You choose to ignore the warning and it’s your problem, not hers.
Checkmate.
Your LO is good. She tells you she loves someone else, yet continues to send you shower selfies. “Stop trying to get close to me, but continue to dream about me”. I’m amazed she got you to think she’s the adult and you’re the messed up one. She’s in control, you’re still her puppy. She managed to tell you to stay away, yet hooked, so she can still ensure you’ll do anything to advance her career and do favors for her whenever she needs it.
It would not surprise me if she keeps on sending you “cute pics” of herself to just keep the Fire burning.
Yup. So just to be totally transparent about what a limerent sucker I am, LO had been planning to fly to Paris to visit her new boyfriend all week. She’s broke so he was buying her tickets. She told me all about getting her hair done, curing her cold, shaving her legs to get ready for him. Then the tickets fell through on Friday – her day of travel – and her wallet was at home and her PayPal account was empty. Guess who slid his AmEx across the table? (“Nooooooo!”) Yes, yours truly. So now I’m paying (a loan) for LO to go see her new boyfriend instead of me. Only LO fucked up and booked the return leg instead so she now can’t go. Boohoo.
All Friday night she’s texting me how she’s so alone and was so looking forward to this weekend. Saturday I shoot her a WhatsApp text saying I hope you’re feeling better today. No answer all day. In the evening, she’s running an open Instagram live chat with some rapper in Atlanta, sipping white wine and laughing. Oh, weird. She didn’t respond to my WhatsApp… maybe she hasn’t logged on there. Oh, she’s updated her profile picture to a new cute selfie but she hasn’t read my messages or responded to me…
Grrrrr. More fuel for deprogramming but damn if it doesn’t hurt.
Fred, what has helped me more than anything is seeing a therapist who specializes in OCD, to treat the obsessive-compulsive component of my limerent condition with cognitive-behavioral therapy. My regular (non-specialist) therapist was wise and kind and helped me a lot with my efforts to repair my marriage, but I’ve also needed this OCD/CBT specialist to help me tackle my residual intense obsession with LO. She gets it about the nature of limerence, and her approach is working well for me. What a relief.
Is that a possibility for you?
Oh, it definitely hurts, but as you know that’s the cornerstone to reprogramming. Mentally linking LO to pain not reward.
Another useful thought: I’m sure in the moment you felt like you were doing a kind thing to help LO and just enjoyed the warm fuzzies of making her happy. Now, though, you have written down in plain text what actually happened. You paid for your LO to go and visit her boyfriend. How would an impartial stranger (or partial spouse) react to reading that?
Take a moment to step outside yourself and really process how that would look to an outside observer. Is that the kind of man you want to be?
I have no words, Fred. I second DrL’s question, think about how this would look from an outsider’s perspective. Do you want to be that person that they see?
And also think from your SO’s perspective… what would your SO or kids think?
When this is revealed to your spouse and kids (make no mistake about it, she will do so the instant she sees an advantageous to do so) how will they view your motivations?
How about your employer? Employees? Friends?
I think she has a whole stable of rich older guys who she can tap for plane tix and vacations and money anytime she wants.
I bet that she sent her shower selfie to all of them. Over/under is five, any takers?
I have counted at least 5: the long-time admirer/friend; the minor prince in London; the latest Persian businessman in Paris; her former boss who owns a chain of Asian hospitals and me (I’m not that rich though).
Yeah, I get how bad it was everyone. Really, I do. That’s why I hesitated and posted this particular failure in a separate post. And yes, Dr L, even writing it in plain text here made me cringe at myself. We live in Europe Lee so this is a $160 plane ticket and LO will pay me back. Not that that ameliorates the situation. But in particular her treatment of me after this act of idiotic generosity has raised my hackles and helped me see her more for what she is. My long-time friend who knows all about the situation was just shaking his head today, saying I got what I deserved and that he never understood what I saw in her. Consider me duly chastised.
It isn’t the amount Fred, it is the principle.
Fred you’re taking some stick here, and that’s because when you look at your decisions and her manipulative behaviour objectively it all seems so obvious to the detached observer.
I will offer you some empathy though. I was where you are last year – I knew the relationship was wrong, I knew I was making bad decisions and other aspects of my life were suffering, such as family and career. But I couldn’t stop myself. That’s addiction for you. Hard to be sympathetic if you haven’t experienced it.
I think you have some way to go here unfortunately. It’s all happened pretty quickly for you and you’re not thinking straight. You haven’t reached that point where you truly resolve to sort yourself out. It will come, probably after LO makes you feel like an old fool a few more times. You’ll snap in the end, feel utterly pathetic and hit rock bottom. But then you’ll bounce off the floor, and start the long road back.
Try to keep your distance, keep talking to people, posting on here so you get some reality and perspective and start digging deep and figuring out your priorities. You’ve got a fight on here. With yourself.
I am in agreement with Vincent here. Although I never went quite to the extreme as Fred, all my morals went out the window, I was making really risking decisions and disrespecting a lot of people in the meantime. All for a hit of LO. Yes it’s pathetic and selfish but like Vincent said it is an addiction and something you feel you have no control of. At the time I had no care for anyone elses feelings. I was totally and utterly deluded. In my crazy mind I would have given up my right arm for LO. You really do need to sit down and have a really stern word with yourself. She is making a fool out of you and really if you carry on in this way you will be left with nothing and the regret will run deep.
Thanks Vincent and Rachel for the empathy. No, I’m not proud of my recent choices. I’m limerent. Everyone’s comments and LO’s total lack of gratitude or respect over this weekend has indeed been a wake-up call. Now that I have whatever “closure” I will ever get and sordid proof of what a lack of LC and control can lead to, I will dust off my worksheets from Dr L’s emergency deprogramming course and chalk these last two weeks as one giant step back down into LE and restart my ascent anew. Thanks everyone for being appropriately harsh with me.
We’re here for the social accountability whenever you need it, Fred.
Might be worth reviewing the course session on “relapses and resistance” too 🙂
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You just have to look good in turtlenecks.
Brilliant Scharnhorst
Nobody likes being ‘chumped’ which is why Lee always directs limerents to the CL website to get a strong dose of what the SO experience is like.
Fred just got chumped by his LO. Ironically, that experience powerfully counteracts limerence.
It helps me with my LE, for sure. I hate getting played for an idiot, so when I sense my LO taking advantage of my idiot limerent brain, the fog of stupidity rapidly clears.
Being able to feel anger towards the LO is a sign of recovery!
“It helps me with my LE, for sure. I hate getting played for an idiot, so when I sense my LO taking advantage of my idiot limerent brain, the fog of stupidity rapidly clears.”
Being played for an idiot is bad enough. When they go after your self-respect, it’s even worse.
My father told me that the single most important thing we have is self-respect. Boundaries protect it, you don’t let anybody take it, and you don’t put up with anybody who tries.
I was willing to take LO #2 back right up to the point where I realized that doing that would come at the cost of my self-respect. Nobody is worth that so she had to go. If I ever found myself back on the market, it’s the single most important reason I don’t think I’d ever re-engage LO #2. Returning to her would be a humiliating personal defeat.
Plus what if you sought her out and she sent you packing. Or didn’t recollect you at all.
Some doors are much better screwed shut.
“Plus what if you sought her out and she sent you packing. Or didn’t recollect you at all.
Some doors are much better screwed shut.”
To re-engage LO #2, my life would have to go in the tank so badly that I was so desperate as to think she had something to offer me and I would turn to her. I hope to God I never find myself in that position.
With respect to the former, if I did it, it wouldn’t surprise me if she sent me packing or ignored me entirely. She’s married now. Even if she weren’t, she declined every other offer I ever made her that mattered. With respect to the latter, I don’t think so. If she spends any time back in the 80s, she can’t escape me. I own that decade.
Screws? That door is welded shut.
I hope you used armor plating too!
You better do something with that shower selfie to underscore it was unsolicited because your SO will rightly throw you out for it.
Oh wait, you charged a flight for LO to/from Paris for her too. You might as well tell your wife, “I’d like you better if you weren’t so old and used up. Here is your competition. Now dance!”
I have no words for you.
For your wife though – http://www.chumplady.com and to seek an attorney.
Today’s letter may hit home for some.
“She said, “Mom, what do you do if you are married and you find yourself falling in love with someone else? What if you did marry the wrong person?”
I tried to tell her that you end one relationship before beginning another. And then she said, “But what if you’re not sure?”
“Tell your daughter to quit untangling the Schmoopie skein. “Cheating is wrong.”
That’s your answer.
“Cheating is wrong.”
Period. Full stop. Cheating is wrong if you’re married, it’s wrong if you’re stealing petty cash from company funds, it’s wrong if you’re trying to buy your way into an Ivy League.”
“Your indecision does not give you a pass to abuse people. Cheating is wrong. You’re not sure? Then you have some hard decisions to make — and you have to give some things up — like security and the services of the Wrong Person you are married to.”
https://www.chumplady.com/2019/09/when-youre-married-and-fall-in-love-with-someone-else/
Lee, this is where CL sometimes goes wwaaayy overboard. From that same post, here’s a sample:
“Also, 17-year-old daughter — adults don’t fall in love unless they’ve f****d. That’s what adults do — they have sex. So, the fucking happens before the “falling in love.” That’s cheating. Again, refer to “Cheating Is Wrong.”
Many or most of the limerents on this site haven’t had sex at all with their LO. Yet they’re struggling with strong feelings for the LO, and realize the inappropriateness of those feelings–which are identical to being in love. They’re desperately looking for a way out! They’re not the enemy, limerence itself is.
For me, the feelings of limerence crept up on me during ordinary day-to-day interactions with a co-worker. But I felt like I was falling in love, and PRIOR to it becoming an EA, I realized that I had to do something. I googled “how to fall out of love” and found this site.
LWL is great because DrL treats a painful situation with humor and a certain amount of judgment-free detachment.
CL is good because it slaps us in the face with the pain we’ve either caused, or are about to cause. But it goes over the top with the hate and vengefulness, and sometimes it’s plain wrong.
Yes, but remember the goal is to get “Meh”. It is a journey to look at someone who screwed you over and no longer care. I very deliberately didn’t include those phrases because I realize not every limerent has committed adultery. Some have and this is how it can play out. People whose lives were trashed by liars are angry and rightfully so.
It is also interesting to see how those who have been “chumped” embrace enforcing boundaries. Particularly after their trust was used to chase a third party behind their backs.
Limerents often refer to limerence as addiction. One thing that addicts who have quit do is call those still in the throes of addiction out on it. Ever sat in on a NA or AA meeting? Any group therapy session of any sort? It’s rough to witness. I wouldn’t want to be the one getting raked over the coals for minimizing, justifying, blame-shifting and excusing my hurtful actions.
So I am blunt. Don’t give yourself the inch because you may very well go the mile and worse – pretend it was Manifest Destiny to boot. Which led to a very ugly 500 years of history in the Americas (and counting).
Since my vows are much more important to me than some transient emotional experience, even if it was genuine, I knew I had to get those emotions back under control of my rational mind.
I draw a distinction between my normal, rational thought process, which controls 95% of my behavior, and my idiot limerent brain.
Plus you overlooked this portion, “People don’t “fall in love” unless they’ve made a considerable investment in the other person. That’s a series of decisions. Love does’t hit people like thunderbolts across the copier machine. (Hallmark movies notwithstanding.)”
I didn’t overlook that portion, even though I put that in the “Unsure” category in my mind. Many of the limerents on this site speculate about how there can be a person who hits them like a stone shatters a windshield, pretty much instantaneous.
I haven’t had that experience, but I can easily imagine somebody fantasizing about a perfect person to such a degree that they form pathways in their brain. Once they encounter a person who checks enough boxes of the fantasy, limerence activates, and they’re off.
Maybe that’s not ‘love’ but it probably feels like it to the limerent.
It certainly does feel nice – but it’s what you do when you don’t feel all tingly that defines love. Because if all you base your relationship upon is feeling tingly, then it’s not going to last when life gets hard. Life always gets hard.
I stole this reply from CL.
TwiceaChump wrote,
“Commitment and respect is a choice, shows character, and is seen in all areas of one’s life. This has to be important to you in yourself as it is to expect others to honor these values as well. When we ‘fall in love’, it’s infatuation and hormones after we’ve gotten close to someone we’re attracted to. It’s natural and nothing to be ashamed of, is part of the human experience. It’s how we act on those feelings.
For someone in a committed relationship, you don’t act on those feelings to ever get yourself into a compromising position and hurt not only yourself, but everyone you love that would be affected by those actions.”
Hi All
Been a while since i posted. Made good progress at work where I havnt initiated contact and keep contact to a minimum when she does contact me – which is not all the time anyway.
I have also got rid of the uncertainity and know she has nothing for me and is just friendly and sometimes a bit needy too when stressed but overall just a normal human. And i thought it may have been reciprocation so I get limerence…
Anyway is it normal to feel guilty and bad that I am not as proactive with her now and just reacting and being normal so that it doesnt get akward?
I just dont want things to get akward thats all.
Amazing! Keep up that attitude and you’ll be fine.
Kevin, that sounds like “normal” living. Life has gotten in the way of me being proactive with PEOPLE THAT I REALLY LIKE (including some work friends) but just haven’t reached out to in a while. Maybe try to feel guilty about these other people in your life that you haven’t reached out to in a long time for one reason or another. After writing this, I might reach out to someone tonight (not LO)!
Thanks all
From outside I look normal. Inside I’m different. So just trying to fake it till I make it.
I’ve stopped all the sweet messages and the nicknames and just being reactive to her messages instead of proactive and checking on how she is etc.
Just wonder if she will notice the withdrawal and ask me. That’s a separate discussion on how I handle that. If she does notice it.
Does anyone ever feel as if their LO is implementing “staged withdrawal?” I have convinced myself on multiple occasions that LO is or was also limerent for me, even though I doubt that now. But sometimes it seems she is obviously trying to gradually move things back toward a strictly professional relationship. Or it could be an example of an “indecisive LO,” which I think has also been written about here. Regardless, what drives me crazy about it and the LE in general is the constant pretending and inability to just be real and talk about it. I would almost rather LO come out and tell me she is uncomfortable and wants to withdraw in order to prevent herself developing deeper feelings for me, and that for me not to take offence or read into it, but that it is purely self preservation on her part. I could respect that, even though it would likely spell the end of the LE. I would actually welcome it.
Does anyone honestly think that by the end of the staged withdrawal, the other person would just forget What Was Said or that there was a terribly palpable mutual crush? I see the point of it, but as someone who is on the other side (I suspect), it seems so silly.
I will never forget. And I don’t think she will either.
B, am in very similar situation with boss LO and I hate it so much! I
feel the same – I so wish we could just have a mature conversation about it rather than this whole never-ending pretense of everything being normal and our feelings towards each other being professional only when clearly they run deeper. It feels so uncomfortable and false. But I must respect that he has set this new boundary because he needs it for his mental well being. Isn’t it so much harder to have LC forced on you when you don’t feel ready for it? As much as I desperately crave this explicit mutual disclosure, I also know deep down that such a conversation might only serve to deepen my limerence rather than help me recover from it. And I agree B, we will never forget how we feel/felt but fingers crossed, we may get past the obessession eventually.
I recall DrL talking about his experience of staged withdrawal and saying that while it did eventually end his limerence, his LO will always have “emotional significance” for him.
I recognise that impulse, Allie, but (as I think you sense) it’s a trap. First, you can’t control the consequences of your “mature” conversation, because you can rehearse the calm, wise words as often as you like, but when you are there in front of LO in the middle of disclosing, your heart will be hammering like mad and your emotions will be all over the place. Second, they may not respond in an equally calm and mature way. They may freak out, or point out that you have crossed a line, or report you to HR. Third, the underlying impulse is the desire to get reciprocation, and if you do, you may get temporary relief, but then, just as you say, the limerence is likely to deepen.
It does, at first. But the funny thing is, after a while, it becomes the new normal. That was my experience at least – as you say, my old LO will always have emotional significance for me, but by the end of our time together, the civil, professional tone of our interactions felt natural.
Allie,
I can offer one bit of advice from personal experience. I previously disclosed to LO, in a respectful and mature way. She admitted what I already knew: that it was a mutual crush and she shared similar feelings for me. So even though we had “the conversation,” something about it wore off over time, and I began to feel myself craving another disclosure. It’s so similar to any other addiction. I had the ultimate hit – reciprocation in the form of LO telling me there were mutual feelings. But it never lasts. I slowly pushed the relationship deeper because I thought maybe it was mutual limerence, not just a mutual crush. That’s when I went too far I think. I realized she was not limerent and that for the first time things were uncomfortable for her. More time passed and here we are. Sometimes flirty and friendly, others it seems she is withdrawing. At times I just want to whisper to LO: “you know my feelings haven’t changed, have yours?”
What I’m saying is this: don’t disclose. Even if it doesn’t go horribly wrong, the high you get won’t last. You will want another. And another.
Think of it this way. one of 3 things will happen: 1) an affair, 2) LO freaks out and reports you, or 3) something in between, which in essence is more uncertainty, and of course deepens the LE. That is exactly what happened to me. I thought I could be satisfied with the secret knowledge that she likes me too and we could just go about our business. Nope. It won’t last.
Thanks for the wise advise both.
The idea that the disclosing itself would become addictive is incredibly useful to me, thank you B! I can now see that it would be like quadrupling my dose of drug thus worsening the severity of my addiction. This understanding will really help me work on my craving for that “one-off” disclosure conversation as it has now been rendered utterly pointless.
Allie- “”But I must respect that he has set this new boundary because he needs it for his mental well being. “” Same with my LO, I won’t bore you with how many times I’ve been tempted to disclose but I never did. I got a golden opportunity just before virus lockdown and it took every fibre of my being to resist. My LO asked me outright how I’ve been, this after his constant hot-cold behaviour which he even alluded to a few weeks prior. I felt he was pushing my buttons hoping for a reaction , I never gave him one.
Some days I kick myself as I wish I just told him, other days I am proud I held it all in.
In a perfect Limerent world we both disclose and we live happily ever after, but I so know that’s not going to happen.
Wow….well done for resisting such a temptation Lee-Anne! That’s impressive self control, you should be proud. Not sure I would have been quite so good 🙂
Reading this is switching on so many lightbulbs for me after a lifetime of LE. I had an EA with boss/friend a while ago but we ended things quickly. It was then very hot and cold between us for a long time. I think it confused us both and I tried to talk to him about how we could manage it but he wasn’t really willing to talk.
Things changed a month or so ago and I am now reading this and wondering if he read it too because it really feels like he has done a staged withdrawal on me -slowly stopping messages out of work and going very work focused during work hours. I haven’t asked why because I think it is really helping me. Sad to not be friends after many years but I realise it’s the best thing for my mental health right now.
Thanks so much for this website. I will read everything here.
Hi Cheryl, I think your comment summs up my scenario. My LO reports to me, we very professional at work, but do social out of work and this is where my Limerence started, I suspect. Our friendship development outside of work, text msg etc. I thought, I could control this. She would text so much, send photos (nothing bad at all) but, I started to crave the high volume messages but then she would just withdraw for a week, maybe 2 and it all starts again. How did you manage ?
I need some guidance, I really thought I had far more self control, but here, I am. Not exactly sure how I got into this position but now. My LO, is a coworker reporting to me. I suspected all this started with some social events outside of work and spending time together, which then resulted in the coworker sending me daily instant messages, some work related, some not, some topics crossed the sexual nature and she has opened up so much about her private life. To such an extend that, I started to like the amount of messages and actually get excited when there is a message. There is a pattern, huge volume of messages, then a quite week or two, as if she is withdrawing then it all starts again. The professional part of the relationship is still there and we continue to be professional, but, I do know for a fact my ability to manage the professional part is being impacted. Both of us are married and we have not done anything yet, other then the chatting. I know this is wrong on every level but my head is spinning. I’m not sure what to do. I do know, I need to stop this and ensure that it does not escalate, also, I’m not really sure how she feels.
Hi Charlie. I have been buried in an LE for my boss at work for a year now so understand the complication and constant challenge of a workplace LE. The sooner you deal with this, the easier it will be.
If you want this to end, you need to enact a gradual, staged withdrawal from her – put strong boundaries in place. Make a plan of how, what and when. And do not explain to her what you are doing and why, E.g. Gradually adjust your communications to be professional/work related only. Stop messaging her outside of work. Maybe start with no messaging her after a certain time in the evening and gradually move it to never when outside of work. Gradually move to being friendly but not warm, and shift conversations to being work related. Avoid being alone with her – if you take lunch together, make an excuse not to. This is not easy and you may feel guilty about gradually unfriending her. If you do feel bad about her, just consider that in doing this, you are being kind to yourself and your SO, and you are putting your SO above your LO which is exactly as it should be.
There are blogs on this site about staged withdrawals – DrL used it himself when he withdrew from his subordinate LO. If rumination is a big issue, there are some great techniques in the Emergency Reprogramming course for dealing with that.
“I’m not really sure how she feels.” Try to accept that you will never know this and that that is OK, you don’t need to.
Wishing you well.
Thanks Allie, some gold in your response! But as you know it’s not easy. I have already started the stage withdrawal (not knowing what it’s called, but I do need to have a clear plan and strategy in place, or it will fail. About putting my SO above LO is hard but spot on, as I do feel I have withdrawn from my SO because of my obsession with my LO, and any SO deserves better. I sure will check out the blog and thanks for the advice so far.
Hi Charlie – firstly commiserations, I know exactly how you feel. That was almost my exact situation, except my workplace subordinate LO was single, but otherwise, the texting etc, is very familiar.
Secondly, Allie has nailed it with the advice in her post, that is spot on for what you should do. It didn’t quite work out like that for me in terms of the staged withdrawl, but I’m now 2 years NC and can tell you that it will get better from here, you won’t always feel this way. But maintaining as little contact as possible is key. I got lucky as my LO was forced to leave the company, and my chance of NC was presented to me. I don’t know where I’d be if that hadn’t happened frankly but my plan was to use the approach Allie describes. We fell out, so once she left it was relatively easy to stop the contact, and whilst I want through an absolute rollercoaster of emotions, the recovery was slow but steady. Good luck, read everything on this site and keep posting.
Thanks Vincent. Indeed the rollercoaster of emotions are just mind boggling. On some level, I do question why she is sending me so many text, the gossip, the over sharing and then just massive radio silence and withdrawal. That just gets me. Now, the holiday period we in now has forced some NC as we all on leave and other than well wished here and there, nothing has happened (text wise) and somehow that’s a relief. That has not stopped me from thinking about the LO but suppose that’s the issue and by definition limerence.
Jobs won’t be changed anytime soon for either of us, so no movement in that, and I do need to think further then the LO and at my and her professional future and the risk at hand.
Charlie,
“On some level, I do question why she is sending me so many text, the gossip, the over sharing and then just massive radio silence and withdrawal. That just gets me.”
She is doing it on purpose, more than likely. My LO –also a co-worker — did the hot/cold thing, too. He’d disappear and reappear. I think for the validation and attention that I was still interested. At one point I took a different job at the same company, one that put me in a different part of the work campus, which was very large, and meant seeing him not every day as I had previously but once every couple of months. It didn’t help. Part of me was still hoping he’d come and find me (which he would do every so often, but it was torture because it meant the sadness of realizing he was making so little effort). I finally left the company entirely almost a year ago (haven’t seen or heard from him since) and it’s the only thing that helped me start to get over him.
As others have said, trying to understand the LO’s motivations will drive you crazy. As it did me. In the end I settled on a narrative that was felt likely and focused on myself and my SO. My LO was much younger, and so I felt like she enjoyed the attention, relied on me in certain areas of her life, and whilst she probably had an inappropriate crush, she was never going to act on it with all the repercussions that would have lead to. Not being a limerent, she could dip in and out fairly easily, which is why things felt hot then cold from my point of view.
With your LO, she might think you and her are friends and no more. Lots of people think men and women can be friends (I personally take the Harry view from the When Harry met Sally). Maybe she enjoys a little flirt, which she may see as harmless. Maybe she is laying the ground work for an affair. The range of options is very wide, and you’ll only find out by disclosing which risks blowing everything you’ve built with your SO wide open. Even then she might not tell you the truth and you’ll be left with nothing.
All routes from here have sacrifice. Either ruining the friendship with LO by putting in the distance needed or your marriage with SO if you carry on the current course. As you say this holiday period has presented a nice opportunity for lower contact. Try to maintain it in January and see what happens.
Hello everyone,
Let me tell you my own limerent story. It all begun one year ago at work. I’m about 40 and married for many years. Never had experienced limerence until then.
She was sitting right next to me in the office. At first I was not interested in her. Then the pandemic begun and our working shift hours coincided. She was flirting with me, and with many others as well. I returned the flirt back. For about two months it was getting deeper, and we came close. No limerence yet. I decided to disclose. She rejected me, but noted that this was mostly due to my married status. She explicitly stated that she wanted us to stay friends. I respected it. It hurt me a bit, but in the meantime, I started accepting it. I kept slightly distant for a while and everything seemed good.
About one month after my disclosure she started approaching me again in a mixed manner both friendly but also emotionally. We went on a platonic date. Summer vocations came so it was a good chance for me to try keeping a little distance for my own protection. During vocations she texted me almost every day. Sending pictures of places asking how I am etc.
September came and we became very close at work. Suddenly our working shift changes, LO starts to make emotional statements such as, I will miss you, I don’t have a good time without you etc. She starts phoning me. I return the calls. We start talking at nights, and every conversation is long and emotional. When we meet at the changing of shifts our hands touch romantically, frequent hugs etc. During November and December It starts feeling as if I have a parallel platonic relationship with my LO. Before Christmas, at the same time this event reaches its peak, she tells me that she has found a boyfriend. I feel awful but I don’t show it to her. From that point until now the whole situation has been steadily declining, initially from her side, and lately from my side too.
But now I have fallen deeply into limerence, while she seems to have found her purpose. So, what was all this about? I have no direct answer.
I feel like she divorced me after a relationship, even though nothing physical happened. It is all in my head. Currently I’m implementing staged withdrawal, and see what happens. But I can’t get her out of my mind. I thought of making a second disclosure, but I did not, as it seemed as a suicide mission.
Thank you for your time, this blog helped me very much!
Phil
Hello, I am late to this article, but thank you because it is eye-opening. My husband has a sales rep that has been texting him for work reasons and it is definitely a little more for her. She knows he is married, but has mentioned he is her teddy bear and kind of baiting him into saying stuff back. I have brought it to his attention that her actions are very unprofessional, but I am kind of at a loss on what else to do. I do not want to harp on it with him and I do not want it to be uncomfortable for him at work or seem crazy, but If she continues, I feel like something will need to be said.
Jg,
“If she continues, I feel like something will need to be said.”
Yes, but he has to be the one to say it and not get baited by her comments. I am not saying he is; just that he has to be the one to put up the boundary.
He can shut that down pretty quickly. It’s positive that he told you about it.
And, also, this woman could be someone who flirts with a lot of people. Most flirtation is a meaningless and limerence is rare.
Thank you for this site – its great to know i am not the only one that feels like this.
I have worked with LO for over 3 years and she reports to me. I never had limerence for her until the last couple of months. My SO doesnt know and i have been a mess.
Some further context: LO has no idea how i feel (and after reading much on the site i have no plan to disclose). She has done nothing and has always been professional. I am pretty sure that the feelings are not recipricated (but my brain wont let go of them!)
Recently my feelings have escalated to a point where i struggle to focus on anything else. I have reduced our in person meetings to about once a week. I dont ask personal questions anymore (not even how was your weekend) as i know it becomes a trigger. But everything reminds me of her and makes me think of her. My SO and marriage has been great for over 10 years but this is the first time i am under strain.
My SO knows i am depressed and i talk to her about the depression, but sharing the root cause would be disastrous and she would not understand. I have tried to focus on my own marriage but my thoughts struggle to move away from LO.
Its been about 2 months of feeling like this. We also need to travel together for work every now and then (which is not avoidable) and which I hate because afterwards i regress into a worse limerent state afterwards(even though nothing unprofessional happens).
I hope that time makes things better – right now i am a bit lost but know that i hate feeling this way. I also hate having this burden that i know i cannot share with SO or LO. Each day is a real struggle. Any advise would be much appreciated.
Vee…you are me. After 3+ years I developed limerence for my employee. She is 14 years younger but my LE started because I thought I was catching attraction vibes from her. She starting doing a few little things…like texting me personal, non work, talk. This set me off and I fell for her deeply even though I have a happy marriage if 22 years. I leaned into building a personal relationship with this woman for about a month but it never really developed and then I found myself in distress over her and I found this site. I was fully dealing with limerence.
I too went into a depression for a bit and told my SO of my depression and framed it as work stress. She does not know of my LO. I did start seeing a therapist which has been good.
I am one year into LE now but it is manageable. I have to work closely with my LO but the coexistence gets better. If you go to the recent blog on pain, I share my current strategy there.
And, I ended up disclosing to LO about 5 weeks ago due to some circumstances. I did not intend to do it and I do not recommend it generally. I had to because she was pursuing a personal friendship with me that was causing me a lot of distress. Even today she claims she only feels friendship, but her actions are very suspect a lot of the time.
Let me know if you have any specific questions. This site got me through a lot of the confusion of it all which is more than half the battle. Limerence us manageable and potentially beatable. You’ll get there.
Does your company have an Employee Assistance Program? If it does, I recommend using it.
At times like this, the right pro can be a godsend. They can help with the clinical depression and they can provide an unbiased ear you can open up to.
You can also bounce ideas off them before you do anything you’ll regret. Don’t underestimate how valuable that can be. Plus, they’re usually free and are done on company time which reduces the risk of your SO finding out before you’re ready to disclose, if you do decide to eventually disclose. Depression is leakage. Leakage can kill you.
If you don’t have an EAP, you might have to resort to subterfuge with your SO. It’s not the preferred method but it can work.
Is there any possible reason you can pin the depression on? If there is, you use that as the excuse for professional help. Where those sessions go when you’re there is wide open.
I eventually disclosed to my SO. Three years after my EA/LE ended. Timing is everything.
From your post, it sounds like you’re trying to avoid trouble vice having performing active damage control. That’s fantastic!
LwL can help but sometimes you need to call in the pros.
Welcome to our club, Vee! You have come to the right place. You are a classic limerent.
1. I recommend that you watch a short video on YouTube
“How to Deal with Intrusive Thoughts”
https://youtu.be/laeYq51SYA0
2. I also recommend that you replace daydreams about LO with something else. Let’s brainstorm, what are your hobbies or interests? I pour myself into running because I get a runner’s high, I love physically demanding activities, and the math fascinates me (I always have a problem to solve like, how does slope effect my heart rate?) It’s interesting enough that I can push thoughts of my LO aside by watching a running video on YouTube. I think Speedwagon plays guitar. What do you like?
3. Rufio and Speedwagon have similar stories to yours. Adam’s story might be a good one too. You might benefit from reading the comments on the New Years post where their stories are laid out nicely.
When this is over, you might be grateful for the experience. Many limerents experience personal growth because of their LE. Good luck!
My LO is a former co-worker who has left to find different employment. It’s been 8 months since she left and the limerence feels not much better now than it did day one.
I too did not feel the limerence for LO right out the gate. I known her about 2 years all together and about a year into working with her did I get the glimmer for her. She is a very wonderful, kind and sweet lady. Not sure how anyone can NOT fall for her.
I did disclose to my wife but that was because of other circumstances that were worse to let hang than to try and explain to her about limerence. But had those circumstances not been present I would not have told her either.
Miss Lovisa is right on the money about occupying your mind if the thoughts of LO get intrusive or you find yourself daydreaming about LO. I have recently been pouring some time into online gaming with my son after work. It helps me stay focused on playing with him and not on LO. But some days it is very difficult to focus on what I should and not think about her.
There is a lot of help on this blog and also a lot of people with some great advice, life experience and information that can help with your limerence. I have only found out about limerence a month or so ago and these people have been an incredible help to me.
Vee. I’m going to share a little bit more about my situation and what I have discovered in hopes it helps. I remember those early days of my LE, so I feel for you.
I discovered that my limerence was not going to shut off magically. At best it might be a slow fade over years. So I had to learn how to cope and manage a coexistence with my LO and that is really about understanding my emotions and what triggers reward and what triggers depression. Depression always followed reward.
For me, LO displayed many cues of attraction and would text me enough if off work ours to keep me wholly uncertain of her feelings. I took them to be romantic but in reality she saw me as more of a mentor role model type and because she is in a disappointing marriage, she wanted some level of relationship with me, but not a romantic one. It was this uncertainty that was the most difficult to deal with and led to my disclosure. The disclosure has lifted the “secret” I was living with so to speak but has not calmed the limerence.
What I learned is to coexist in predictable routine with LO. I am ok with a certain level of in office interaction with her. I am not OK with outside the office texting which we did a lot of. It just caused me too much uncertainty and expectation with her.
I have also learned to accept that the fantasy I have for her and me is just that, fantasy. So I take some pleasure now in just being an excellent boss to her and filling a role in her life of a man that sees her, appreciates her, and encourages her and I can tell she values that. In a way it gives me some purpose with her.
Last, some days are still tough. She is gorgeous in my eyes and the desire to pursue her can be strong. I have found that a light, warm office relationship with her seems to provide me the best relief. It is not in my nature to be cold so this never works for me. If I need a warm interaction with her I don’t shy away from it and because we need to collaborate every day, I get one most every day. But it all ends at the office door.
I hope you take in this site and learn as much as you can from the blogs and people here. Limerence us here to stay for a while so start working through how to understand it, manage it, and eventually beat it.
BTW…was there any particular thing that triggered your romantic desire for her or was it a slow build?
“ The disclosure has lifted the secret I was living with so to speak but has not calmed the limerence.”
Oh Speedwagon, I’m sorry. I thought you were on the fast track to recovery since disclosure.
You are learning to live with limerence. That is progress. You have come far since we met. Go Speedy!
Thanks for all the comments.
Speedwagon – i can relate. I also framed it as work stress with my SO. I am looking into therapy as i think it is the right next step. Its great to know that the limerence is manageable after a year – i really would like my working relationship to go back to how it was before i went crazy 😉 I am interested to hear that you disclosed – did you feel better afterwards? And have you disclosed what happened to your SO?
Your comments on depression following a high is so true. The highs are clearly linked to closer work collaboration. I am really trying to keep interactions to a minimum but i already know the next month has many work meetings where LO will be in close proximity. Thanks for all your advise and sharing youe experience. On your question of what trigerred it – there were a few things: 1) she broke off a bad relationship 2) she suddenly spoke to me about some personal issues (doesnt happen anymore) 3) we navigated some tough times at work that forced us to know each other better. The day that everything changed was at our year end party where i saw her chatting (pretty innocently) to other guys and suddenly felt crazy jealousy and this kicked the limerence into overdrive. Before this it was just a glimmer. Then it became much more.
LimerentEmeritus – we dont have a program like this at work but i agree that professional help is a great next step. How did the disclosure to your SO work out and how did you feel afterwards? I agree timing is crucial as right now i feel like disclosure to her when nothing is in her control to change would not be helpful.
@Lovisa – thank you for the youtube link. Anything to shift my thoughts is helpful. I am a football fan (not the american kind) so am trying to use that to distract me where possible. I am also considering starting meditation lessons to help. Thabks for suggesting the new years thread – i missed this and am working my way through the comments but this has been very helpful.
Adam – i am surprised that NC for 8 months did not help. I keep thinking that my seeing her often is causing this situation to continue. Hope it gets better soon. “How can anyone not fall for her” – i know what you mean!! Feels the same.
I will see how the coming weeks go but i really appreciate all the thoughts and advise. It feels good to share some of this.
Thanks for sharing, Vee.
Sorry this happened, you did not ask for it and boom, there it is…limerence. Work dynamics are such tricky things but it sounds like you are doing the right thing. I have to be imagine her being single is tough because you might have to watch her start to date someone. My LO is married, and I even get jealous of him. I have to meet him in a couple weeks, ugh!
I found that after a while the in office collaboration interactions become routine and less of a reward. I did not feel as euphoric after them and thus did not feel low after them either. It’s all part of the predictable routine I manage for myself, I know that during my work day I may collaborate with LO 2-3X and I am used to it. But I stay away from other things with her like office outings and texting (she used to text me some during work as well as after) and deep personal talk.
As for my disclosure…you can read it in real time in the New Years blog. Actually, if you go to the Rescue Fantasy blog first you can read the escalation of our relationship that led to the disclosure. It’s all immortalized here on LwL…lol.
Disclosure did lift the weight I was carrying of the secret of my attraction. I am not going to lie, that weight was heavy and the uncertainty of her feelings were driving me crazy and disclosure has been a big relief of that. But I am still as limerent for her and still feel the pain of limerence, just in a more dull stable manner now. And disclosure was hard on her for a good couple weeks, she felt guilt over her behavior towards me, and for a bit I was scared she was going to quit. She is stable and cheery now and past that but it was tense and I put in a lot of effort to make her feel comfortable.
As for my SO…limerence has been great in rekindling romance with her. My wife is great, and we did not have issues, but we were going through motions a bit. Limerence increased my libido, and gave me renewed interest in affection towards her. We have never been closer. Seems like such a paradox, feeling madly in love for another woman and at the same time wanting to be closer to my wife. Weird but true. This is why I have not disclosed to her, because it has been positive and I don’t want to disrupt that.
Hang in there! You are on the right path.
I have bad news, Vee. My first LE lasted 17 years. It was dormant at times, but any contact or reminder of LO1 triggered my limerence. Unfortunate for me, LO1 got famous and I couldn’t escape him. We even moved to a different country to get away (my SO didn’t know I was running from someone when we moved. He just thought I was adventurous.). When we lived in a different country, somehow my LO1 knew when I was back in town for visits. He would contact me out of the blue when I happened to be in town. I just couldn’t run from him. I finally disclosed to my SO and I regret it. Before disclosure, the pain was my problem, now my SO experiences pain when LO1’s name comes up. It is at least monthly and it really stinks!
You may need to take Speedy’s approach and learn to live with limerence. It can last for a while.
Vee,
You can read about it here. It’s under my old screen name: https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other/#comment-6445
There’s another post somewhere that talks about another conversation my wife and I had about my EA/LE.
When we were talking about LO #4, my wife flat out asked, “Did you love her?” I waffled. I told her that I didn’t think I could fall in love with someone that I never actually met. My wife has lived with me long enough to know the difference between a response and an answer and she wanted an answer. She asked again, “Did you love her?”
At the time, I might have loved LO #4 but I wasn’t about to admit it so I copped out and replied, “I don’t think so.” It didn’t start that way but once LO #4 began to open herself up to me, different story.
7+ years out, LO #4 was a pothole on the road to happiness and a footnote in my life. LO #4 was never more than a sideshow and it’s unlikely she ever will be more than a sideshow.
I spent 5 years with LO #2 and asked her to marry me. She was the most important person in the world to me from age 27-32. She has her own chapter in my Book of Life.
See the difference? One woman had a real place in my life and the other didn’t.
Does your LO have a real place in your life?
Speedwagon – i finally made it through reading about your story. It is amazing how similar our situations are and i feel like you have lived through exactly what would happen to me if i disclosed to LO. Its a hard reality to not have your feelings reciprocated. The only difference i see is that LO hasnt done anything that i can even remotely consider as showing interest to me. Knowing that she is probably 99% not interested is painful and helpful at the same time. I also know that it shouldnt matter and i shouldnt care what she thinks. I have tried to get into a working routine that reduces the highs (and hopefully also the lows). I cancelled an in person meeting this week which i feel like is big progress (although i have one next week that is going to be tough to deal with afterwards especially since its a one on one meeting). I am both dreading and looking forward to it – such strange emotions. I feel like i am starting to have longer time periods between thinking of LO (still quite frequent but reducing). Yes – seeing her date someone would be tough (but thinking positively it may also help reduce my limerence). Thanks for sharing your story in such detail – it has really helped me. I am so interested i what happens next for you.
I see the impact of discosing to LO and how it has relieved some of the burden – i want to feel that weight of holding onto such a secret lifted but the likely rejection is stopping me along with my rational brain that keeps telling me what a bad idea it is.
Lovisa – i am sold on not disclosing to SO. She sees i am doing a bit better. It has also been fascinating to read your experience. Thank you!
Limerent Emeritus – your question on what place LO will have in my life – my limerent brain wants her to have a big place but my rational brain knows that is a mistake and as amazing as she is, i need to make peace with being her boss and at best a friend.
The next few weeks are going to have numerous interactions and i hope i can make the right decisions and get through it (with not too many depressing lows).
Thanks for the update, Vee.
Here is something I tell myself when I am struggling. Do the right thing no matter how you feel.
You got this!
Vee, I’m glad you took the time to read my roller coaster ride with LO. It has been such a learning experience navigating this. I still have to be very diligent with LO because it is easy for me to over do it and spend too much one on one time with her, which for some reason she is very receptive to right now. Last week I over did it a little too much and felt myself slipping into more high/low emotions. I need to back off a bit next week. It all feels like balancing on a seesaw with her.
I never intended to disclose to her, but in our small office things got messy and I needed to control the narrative. I don’t view my LO as innocent in all this, but I never ever cast blame on her. I’m glad she seems to be past it…I think!?!
Check in and let us know how it’s going. I think it will take some time for you to figure out what works with her…what level of interaction keeps you most stable.
And one last thought. One thing that helps me when interacting with my LO is knowing that as her boss/employer I provide her a feeling of encouragement and appreciation with leads to better sense of purpose and value. I try to set my issues aside and focus on her betterment. I am guessing your LO views you as a mentor as well and you have the ability to shape her self value as well. This is why I can never act cold to her.
Speedwagon – you are spot on. She views me as a mentor and has huge respect for me. She is a great employee and i definitely have (and will continue to) played a major part in her career. Acting cold is not an option and would not be authentic (i would be living a lie). I enjoy telling her how amazing an employee she is and she appreciates hearing it.
I have been working on a few guidelines for myself 1) stay away from asking about personal issues or emotional issues 2) treat and talk to her the same as i would other employees (ask myself would i say those same words to another employee) 3) reduce unnecessary in person contact and 4) no checking work mails on the weekend or afterhours
Lets see how this goes.
Wow I’m glad I found this site and in particular this discussion – it explains so well what I’ve been feeling the past few months. I’m a happily married 40 something year old guy with a great wife and 3 kids, a rewarding and interesting career and several hobbies/activities I enjoy a lot. LO is a coworker. She does not directly report to me, but I’m in a significantly more powerful position within our workplace. The nature of our work together includes frequent email communication and rarely requires in-person contact. We work in different offices on the same building. She’s a couple years younger than me and also has 3 kids.
We’ve worked together for 5 years now. She was always someone I noticed – she’s the kind of person who just makes you feel good when she’s around. Physically attractive for sure, but more than that she just exudes a kind of energy that always left me feeling good for hours after any 5 minute interaction with her. I was definitely attracted to her from the start, and I always kind of wondered if she was a bit attracted to me as well. But for years that was all there was to it – I was married, she was married, we saw each other like once a week, and she remained a pleasant but minor part of my life.
About 6 months ago, I started wondering if she was trying to get closer to me – she started coming around to see me in person more often, always with some work-related thing that could have been handled by email, but she’d come to my office with it and then we’d sit and chat for a few minutes – nothing too deep or personal, just friendly banter. Then one day she disclosed to me that she recently gotten divorced because of her husband’s infidelity. We talked for a long time, she cried and shared a lot, I listened and showed support. She started coming to see me more often and our talks lengthened and deepened.
Then in November she started texting me – just little things like “I saw this funny thing online and thought you’d like it”. But it showed that she was thinking about me and that felt
good. I’d text back. Then we started texting outside of work hours. Things escalated quickly then -within a few weeks, we were texting from the time we woke up until we went to bed at night. Nothing sexual or overtly romantic, just wanting to know each other better, mixed with innocent displays of affection. She also continued to come by my office frequently for chats. I was thinking about her constantly. I hid all this from my wife.
Then a few days before Christmas I disclosed. If I’d found this site earlier I wouldn’t have, but at that time I just felt compelled to tell her how I felt. I disclosed during a phone call – she told me that she had the same feelings for me, that she’d had a crush on me for 5 years, described in detail the first time we met. It felt wonderful! And then moments letter we both realized “oh f@&$ what have we done”? Because of course I’m married, so now that we’d disclosed we couldn’t keep pretending it was just a friendship, and neither one of us had any desire to be involved in an actual affair. So we agreed to stop texting and limit our contact. I went from elation to crushing despair in the span of minutes.
Within a week, we’d blown past all our self-imposed limits and were in a full blown EA. Texting constantly, expressing feelings openly, meeting daily alone in my office, sexual tension so incredibly high that things came so close to turning physical many times, but we always restrained ourselves. We “broke up”, felt crushed, resumed contact. Repeated this cycle several times. Had crazy phone conversations about if I’d be willing to leave my wife for her (I was not) or if she’d be willing to be “the other woman” for me (she was not, largely due to having been cheated on herself and knowing how crushing that felt).
She stopped coming to see me in person – said she couldn’t be sure she could control herself. For the past month, we’ve been having a weird long-distance relationship where we text (only during work hours so my wife won’t see a text) and talk on the phone but never see each other even though we work in the same building. Our hope is that eventually the “new relationship energy” will fade. So far it hasn’t – every time we talk, the energy and connection is still crazy good. We both feel like we could talk for days on end and never get tired of each other. I still think about her constantly, and feel elation when we talk and especially if she expresses feelings for me, and feel anxiety and despair when we’re out of contact for any period of time. I have still not disclosed to my wife, but we did start couples counseling on the pretext of working on some other legitimate issues in our marriage, and I’m also arranging to start seeing a therapist on my own.
Anyway, thanks to anyone who made it this far, I know this was a long post. I’ll likely start posting more on here in the weeks to come, and I’ll definitely be reading and learning from all of you.
Oh that is a tough situation, Lost in Space. It will be interesting to see how your story unfolds. I feel sympathy for all three of you: you, SO and LO. Zoinks, that is a tough one. I bet you feel alive and awakened. Have you experienced limerence benefits like weight loss yet?
Let me introduce myself. I play with fire. I am currently limerent for my LO3 who I transferred to from my LO2 almost a year ago. I maintain contact with both of them. Sometimes I think limerence is a dark art. There are so many benefits, but the risks are huge! I haven’t cheated on my SO and I am confident that I won’t. I use the sexual energy to keep my libido high, which my SO enjoys. Ironically, my marriage has never been better. But I’m warning you that it’s a juggling act. Proceed with caution.
Do me a favor and tell me what boundaries you won’t cross. It will increase your awareness and, if you get close to crossing one of them, you will hit the brakes faster if you’ve already made up your mind.
Good luck and welcome to the club!
Hi Lovisa, good to meet you!
To answer your questions:
1) I feel alive and awakened when I’m in contact with LO. I feel anxious to the point of mild panic attacks when we haven’t had contact in a couple of days (we agreed to only be in contact during work hours/days to avoid being discovered). I’ve felt incredibly depressed the handful of times we tried cutting contact completely (I know she feels the same – we made eye contact in passing during a no contact period and the sadness in her eyes was so deep I’ll never forget it)
2) Benefits – I was already really physically fit so no weight loss benefit. I’ve actually seen significant improvements in my marriage, including better sex life with SO and us being more affectionate and communicating better
3) Boundaries – I won’t hurt my wife and I won’t blow up my kids’ lives. This means being really discrete and cautious with the EA even if it means not having nearly as much contact as I’d like, and avoiding sex completely – partly because I believe letting it become a PA would eventually lead to a high chance of getting found out, and partly because my feelings for LO are already so strong, I suspect that if we started having sex, my feelings would intensify so much that
I might actually do something crazy like leave SO for her
I recently proposed to LO that we agree to continue indefinitely in a discreet emotional affair that could partially satisfy our longing for each other and provide some of those other benefits for both of us. She wants to, but is also bothered by the general wrongness of it, and also feels that she could never really be satisfied with anything less than all of me, and she knows that can’t happen – so part of her wants to continue as we are, and part of her wants to make the relationship fade because it’s too painful at times. So it’s still kind of up in the air, although we just had an amazing long conversation on Friday afternoon that’s left me energized all weekend and frankly I’m hoping for more of the same this coming week
Hi LIS, thanks for sharing your story. You are is a very tough position and quite honestly it feels like a powder keg ready to explode. I am rather amazed the PA has not happened yet, and good for you both on setting boundaries but how long do you think you can actually coexist like this? I know for myself, I am so attracted to my LO I don’t know if I could stop myself from sexual contact with her, I like to think I could, but I honestly don’t think I could if she pursued me at all.
It feels like you have to make a purposeful choice for your marriage and that requires removing LO from your life completely. Full no contact. Is that possible in your company? Can she transfer to another department that does not require your contact with her? Can you?
Your story is a good lesson for me for what it would be like if my work LO actually reciprocated strong romantic desire and attraction for me. I disclosed to her also after a lot of uncertain feelings and her cues of attraction but she maintains she only feels friendship. But she still behaves very warm and receptive in my interactions with her. We are also both married. Does not sound like reciprocal attraction is the relief I would hope it to be.
Hang in there and let us know how this proceeds. This site and all the blogs and peoples limerent stories are filled with amazing wisdom.
Hi Speedwagon! Thanks for the thoughts – I was hoping to hear from you since your story sounded similar to mine in a lot of ways.
Reciprocity definitely did not provide relief! It certainly did provide some moments of euphoria, but also has lead to extreme frustration and further intensification of the LE.
The one surprising benefit of LO reciprocating was that it has drastically improved my sex life with SO. My wife has a relatively low libido (due in part to depression and meds) and for a long time she had been rejecting most of my sexual advances. This lead to me feeling sexually unattractive and I had largely stopped even trying to initiate sex with SO. Having this extremely attractive woman at work tell me that she could barely keep her hands off me was certainly a much needed boost for my self image, and apparently I took that confidence and energy home in a way that SO noticed – our sex life has done a complete 180 in the past few months.
I can think of 3 main reasons why it hasn’t progressed to a PA:
1) I really do love my wife deeply, and the thought of losing her and causing that sort of emotional devastation to her really does put a brake on my actions. Of course, she’d also be devastated if she knew about the EA, but it’s a lot more practical to keep that hidden
2) LO really is a good person with a good moral compass, and she’s also experienced firsthand the pain of being betrayed by her husband, and she absolutely doesn’t want to do that to my wife. She actually feels really bad about her role in this whole thing – she says (and I believe her) that she never wanted it to go this far and was just hoping to get closer to me in a friendly way (despite knowing that she was attracted to me) and that she never thought I’d return her feelings
3) As much as I am sexually attracted to LO, my primary attraction is emotional. I love talking with her more that anything in this life. We can talk for hours and never feel like it’s enough time. She has told me multiple times that if we ever did have sex, she thinks she would feel so terrible about herself that she could never bring herself to speak to me again. I don’t know if that would actually be true, but I haven’t wanted to risk it. If you gave me a choice between making love to her once but then never talking to her again, vs never touching her or even seeing her face but getting to talk on the phone for a couple hours a week for the next year, I’d choose the latter in a heartbeat.
Finally, NC is not an option. There’s nowhere for either of us to transfer to. She MIGHT be leaving in a few months to go back to school. The thought of that breaks my heart into pieces but I also know it would be the best thing that could happen. We could certainly limit our contact more than we are now, but honestly I’m not ready for that. We’ve tried a couple of times, and the depression was so profound I couldn’t function at work or at home.
So for now, we’re doing this weird relationship where we work 200 yards from each other but haven’t actually seen each other except passing in the hall for over a month, but we text and talk on the phone a couple hours a week. In the meantime, I’m working on strengthening my relationship with my SO, working with a psychologist on my own issues, and trying to get more into some of my other hobbies so that eventually if/when we do end contact, I’ll have a good base of other things to replace her with, so that I don’t end up transferring all of that energy to something more destructive (like a new LO with less of a moral compass, or a loss of my 15 year sobriety from alcohol)
That’s the plan anyway – does it sound reasonable or am I totally deluding myself?
“ She has told me multiple times that if we ever did have sex, she thinks she would feel so terrible about herself that she could never bring herself to speak to me again. I don’t know if that would actually be true, but I haven’t wanted to risk it.”
It’s true! I promise it’s true! If you cross the line, she will drop you! The guilt would be unbearable. The alternative is that she becomes the type of woman who crosses that line. Which is worse?
I like your plan for now. AND Don’t touch her. You can’t handle physical contact and neither can she. Don’t cross the line, you will hurt her. Let that motivate you to keep this thing under control.
Awesome that this is helping your sex life with SO! Cheers to that! Btw, I don’t drink alcohol either. I have chocolate milk in my pretend cup.
Also, how did you revive sex at home? I have two male friends who need help with reviving a wife’s low libido. We have some commenters with this problem, too.
Wow LIS, your story is how I imagined mine would turn out with my LO, minus the turmoil of mutual attraction. What a reality check for me! There was a time when LO and I were texting pretty heavy and I remember thinking this is it, this is the start of something and being so excited. But then she went cold and I had never felt so down. That was the start of my disclosure progression.
I do understand the emotional connection, I am the same way to an extent. I crave my LOs attention and affection emotionally. But, my LO is not a great conversationalist, it takes effort on my part to get her talking, and many times her lack of personal initiation with me in conversation really frustrates me. Texting with her was maddening because she texted in thought fragments like a teenage girl might. It all made me come to realize that my limerence for her is as sexual as it is emotional. Right now she is acting very warm and receptive to my interactions with her. It’s starting to cause me some distress again, and even though she claims her feelings for me are only friendship I still feel an affection for me that she exudes. But I am also pretty sure she is a non limerent, she told me during disclosure that she didn’t have feelings because ‘it wasn’t reality’. I think the reality of the situation of us both being married played into her non attraction where as I fell into attraction fantasy land over her, reality be damned.
As for my SO, I too gained greater libido and general affection for my wife over this. The sexual energy had to go somewhere and we have had regular routine ‘date night’s’. I also have found a greater affection for her, just doing things like hugging and kissing her more often and we cuddle in bed more now. She has said on a few occasions she wants to know what got into me this last year. I intend for her never to know.
I also lost nearly 40 lbs working out. More energy needing to be displaced and a general need to counteract depression got me exercising and living healthier. The lump positive of LE has been great, other than the turmoil of the crazy emotions. I am now practicing stability which requires controlled interactions with LO and absolutely no off work hour interactions. We do not text anymore, one of the fallouts of my disclosure and a good one I suppose. My hardest days are weekends when I know I can’t see or talk with her.
The New Years Purpose blog is a crazy and fascinating comments section where we all seem to check in with each other. You should read through it.
Looking forward to hearing more from you!!!
To echo Speedy about the New Year’s blog, you should join us there, too. I refer to it as “my support group” when talking to my SO, LO2 and his friend.
Speedwagon, I am concerned that you would cheat if the right girl tempted you. I suspect you’d like to live your whole life as a faithful husband when you are thinking straight, but your shadow tells you to cheat. Let’s work on that. How can I help pull you to the light? I love your honesty, by the way. I know I wouldn’t give into that temptation and I recognize that the pull might not be as intense for me, though I doubt it. I’ve had opportunities. Tempting opportunities and I wouldn’t give in. But, I have the benefit of having lost a parent at the age of 4 because a woman seduced my dad on purpose. I lived through the aftermath and I will never repeat that tragedy. How can we sharpen your commitment to your vows?
Lovisa…you bring up a topic I have thought about a lot lately…what am I actually seeking or capable of. Would I follow through on a PA if given the chance. I did not ever think about this prior to my LE. I always saw myself as a faithful husband but my LE has caused me a lot of turmoil in this area.
First, in my 22 years of marriage I have never had the opportunity to cheat. But I have always had crushes on other women while married that truth be told, I fantasized about having sex with them often. But they always stayed fantasies, and I always believed this to be normal male desire.
LO is the first woman I have ever pursued relationally outside my marriage. In my heart of hearts I wanted to have a PA with her. She captivates me that much. Would I follow through on it if she had reciprocated…I’m not sure. I’m not sure I could have handled the outright disrespect and breach of trust to my wife and marriage. I think I would have been more like LIS on this. Maybe if LO and I were completely on the same page with things I would.
What I do suffer from to a certain extent is a desire of attention and affection from other women. I have always had close female relationships and I like female affection beyond that which my wife provides. Maybe this is tied to a sexual longing as well. I have thought about whether I am a monogamous person at my core. I’m not sure. I think I am out of marital respect but not out of personal sexual desire.
I don’t know, this is a whole new area of my being that I feel like I am just discovering. I will admit though, I do struggle a bit with sex with my wife. She is very modest and though we have sex with regular frequency I have always felt like it is something she tolerates more than desires. Sex with her is very routine and any effort to try something new is always awkward and met with mostly displeasure. It has taken a toll on me over the years. In my 20s I had sex with 2 other girlfriends where it was very passion filled and free. I tend to miss that with my wife as it was and is never quite that way with her. But it’s not horrible either. I do find my wife attractive and I do enjoy having sex with her.
But LO…she just seems to have a sexual hold over me right now that my wife cannot compete with.
“She was always someone I noticed – she’s the kind of person who just makes you feel good when she’s around. Physically attractive for sure, but more than that she just exudes a kind of energy that always left me feeling good for hours after any 5 minute interaction with her.”
This statement reminds me exactly of why LO is so addictive. As I said in another post “I don’t know how God packed so much sunshine into one woman that could make her shine so much”
She was always a pleasure to be around. Genuinely kind and caring as well as nice and sweet. Quite easy to get addicted to the company of a person like that, man or woman.
She also was a co-worker. Similar to you she worked in another office completely so most of my interactions with her were either email or phone. I never had personal correspondences with her as I only could reach by the office line. Which was probably the saving grace that it only got as far as it did. She was also much younger than me, and when we first worked together in person for four months she was single. She’s since met a young man that she has been with that’s good to her and her two daughters after a really bad divorce.
I am very thankful if there were any feelings on her side she did much better hiding them than I did as apparently the rest of the people in the office could tell I favored her. June 3 of last year was her last day at the office. I have only heard from her one time since, and that was her picking up the phone at the office when I was on hold, when she was visiting her former co-workers. And that put me on a high for about a month. Otherwise I have had no contact with her.
The people here are very helpful as you can see. I have only been here about a month and the amount of help I have gotten is immeasurable. And I see you have already met Miss Lovisa. I brag on her every chance I get because she is always here for everyone and always has a listening ear. She has helped talk me out of a lot of bad feelings and I thank her for that.
Adam,
Yeah…
Every once in awhile, you can find yourself in a situation where you can look a woman in the eye, smile, and say, “You have more going for you than any one woman should be allowed to have.”
You’re not in that position.
Lovisa,
“It’s true! I promise it’s true! If you cross the line, she will drop you! The guilt would be unbearable. The alternative is that she becomes the type of woman who crosses that line. Which is worse?”
Thank you so much – this is exactly what I need to hear and to focus on. To my shame, I am more motivated at this time by feelings for my LO than for my SO, but I suppose that’s what unites all of us in these situations – so why not use my feelings for LO in a positive manner? She has told me that she’s suffered from severe depression in the past, to the point of contemplating suicide a few years back. While she’s doing much better now, I fear that if she did something so contrary to the core of who she actually believes herself to be, it could send her back into that state. I couldn’t stand to be responsible for that!
“Also, how did you revive sex at home? I have two male friends who need help with reviving a wife’s low libido. We have some commenters with this problem, too.”
I didn’t really do anything different – the same looks, the same touches, the same kisses that used to work in the past and had mostly stopped working in the last few years… well, they started working again. I think it was about confidence – there’s a big difference between initiating sex while expecting to be rejected, and initiating while feeling full of confidence and expecting success. LO’s feelings for me, which include both love and lust, definitely raised my confidence level a lot, and I can only imagine that SO sensed the difference and responded accordingly!
Speedwagon – Disclosing and learning of mutual feelings has led to a entirely different kind of hell than the limerent experiences I’ve had in the past. Like you, I’ve always craved affection and multiple connection with women more than my wife can/will provide, and I’ve had at least 3 other LEs over the years, although none nearly so intense as this one and none that involved disclosure or reciprocity. So I’ve been accustomed to the torment of unrequited feelings, “does she or doesn’t she”, overanalyzing every text message… and that’s definitely a torment of it’s own. But this time has definitely been the hardest for me. First, because now I know there’s basically nothing standing between me and her except our own consciences and fear of hurting others – that’s a really challenging place to be. Second, I’ve let myself get so very close to her and develop such a strong bond with her. While my previous LEs were based mostly on a mix of attraction and lust, this one is based on actually getting to know her pretty deeply and feeling what really feels like true love. Our emotional connection is like nothing I’ve ever experienced with anyone, and it’s the same for her – we’re actually both introverts who normally don’t open up to other people much at all, and suddenly we’re both spending hours on end talking, seemingly desperate to learn everything about the other and tell each other everything about ourselves. We have not yet had a conversation end because we ran out of things to say – our talks only end because we run out of time due to the constraints on when we can communicate. It really has me feeling things like that she could be my true soulmate or twin flame or whatever, even though I know it’s probably just tricks of the brain and NRE that would eventually die out if we were really together and stuck in the mundane realities of raising kids, paying bills, cleaning the house and all that. That’s what I keep telling myself anyway, along with a constant commitment to not hurting my wife who I really do love and have always looked forward to spending my lifetime with.
I want to get into this more in depth with both of you, but I am pressed for time. I need to get ready for church and we’re hiking to a frozen waterfall afterwards so I need to pack my gear. I couldn’t resist addressing the twin flame issue… that isn’t real. It can’t be be because I would have too many soulmates. My LEs are always mutual. I can’t be a twin flame to 4 men ( including my SO who was also an LO). I don’t know why they always reciprocate. I have been pondering the 1 to 10 scale. Maybe I am an 8 and am attracted to 7s. Maybe they are married to 6s. I don’t know. I can’t figure out why this happens, but it isn’t supernatural. It isn’t destiny. It is just a chemical reaction.
Also, fantasies seem to be a theme for all three of us. Much to my surprise, my SO doesn’t fantasize about other women. I always assumed he did. I thought everyone did. Nope, some people don’t.
LIS, thanks for sharing. It’s sounds like a very difficult place to be in with you and LO. It still blows my mind because what happened with you is what I wanted, full reciprocation and EA, and now you have brought to light the struggle and crushing blow of that reality.
I did a lot of thinking about my LO this weekend and why I am limerent for her and it really seems more sexual in nature than anything else. There are other things I like about her, we have a lot of ordinary things in common, we bantor well, but at a deeper relational level she is difficult to get to know. She can be quite aloof and other people in our office have said she is hard to read and figure out. I think I agree.
Every now and again I like to make a list of how to keep moving forward in my actions with LO to tamper limerence. I did that again today and one of the items on my list is to lean into a couple other female friendships in the office a bit more because I find them more satisfying on a friendship level than my LO. These woman are just more mature in their relational sensibilities than my LO and tend to reciprocate better.
Speedwagon – based on everything I’ve read about limerance and everything I’ve experienced personally, I’d say one of the main things to keep in mind is that “it’s never going to be enough”. If you get reciprocity, you’ll want a full EA. If you have an EA, you’ll want a PA. If you have a PA, you’ll get frustrated because you still only get to be with LO part time and then you might end up doing something crazy like actually leaving SO to set up house with LO. Maybe it’s different for different people, but that’s how I’ve seen myself going anyway.
The other problem is the ongoing insecurity and anxiety about “will it last?” My EA has been filled with anxious thoughts about her coming to her senses and cutting it off, which I think she will do at some point – in part because she feels morally conflicted, and in part because she wants so much more with me that it’s painful to settle for what we actually have. Every Monday when we get back in contact I’m filled with fear that she will have had a change of heart over the weekend.
My limerant brain wants to be with LO completely and forever, and anything less than that (ie anything compatible with reality) is never going to satisfy. It’s like an addict thinking they could do “just enough heroin”.
So I guess the choices are either cut it off completely or find some balance between what you want and what you can actually have and then resign yourself to living in a perpetual state of discomfort.
Man, you are hitting me with some great perspective. I have felt the never enough feeling. When LO and I started texting frequently, one day of not texting sent me into a tail spin. I was also frustrated she would not match my affection level in her texts. Also, at the office in dread the ho hum days of interaction, I want our interactions to always be deep and meaningful, but reality is they all are not.
I have for the most part got to the place now where I am resigned and OK with the warm in office interactions we have and being just an awesome boss to her. I do actually have a couple great roles in her life, she sees me as a mentor and male role model. She respects me (I think still after disclosure) and appreciates me. She is married to a difficult guy and I am the next important man in her life ( her father died a few years back). These are roles I want to respect and take seriously with her and not let my limerence get in the way like it did over Christmas time when it all escalated and I disclosed.
Btw…I would consider myself a 7 in the looks department but a 9 in the successful and interesting man department. My wife is a 8, maybe 9 for her age, and is loved by everyone.
Speedwagon, I had a feeling that you couldn’t handle mutual limerence like the situation with Lost in Space. I really want to address this until you are confident that you wouldn’t cheat on your wife. I think this LE is just the beginning and you will have other opportunities. I want you to be prepared. It’s important to me for some reason. Maybe I am too invested in your story, I don’t know. I care. I don’t want to see you blow up your life. But, if you do, I’ll still care and want want to help if I can.
How do we get you on our side? It sounds like Lost in Space isn’t willing to blow up any marriages either.
Thanks for pondering your commitment to your marriage out loud on this site. I appreciate the effort you are making. I read it this morning, but didn’t have time to respond. I will read it again.
Lovisa, I appreciate your concern and interest in my story. It means a lot knowing you care. I have no interest in hurting my wife or blowing up my marriage. I will commit to you that I will not cross a physical boundary with with any woman that is not my wife. I don’t want to be that guy. I don’t have any pattern of physical contact with LO and I intend to keep it that way.
Thank you for your directness with me in this.
Thanks Speedwagon!
Lovisa – thanks again for telling me what I need to hear. My rational brain knows it’s not destiny or fate or something, it’s my brain being flooded with oxytocin and dopamine every time I have contact with LO. And it feels incredible during those moments, but obviously it’s nothing to go making life-altering decisions over.
My SO also does not have fantasies about other people. She told me that once we got married, she just completely stopped thinking that way. I find that incredibly strange but it seems to be true for her. She certainly notices an attractive man and might feel attraction in that moment, but there’s no ongoing fantasy life in her mind.
I think about the 1-10 scale as well. When we met, I’d say SO was an 8 and I was a 7. Twenty years later, I’m probably an 8.5 (for my age) thanks to hobbies like weightlifting, MMA and triathlons, and she’s probably a 5 or 6 due to years of a sedentary lifestyle and 50lbs of weight gain. All of my LOs have probably been equally or slightly more attractive than me, so physical/sexual attractiveness certainly plays a big role even if my primary attachments end up being emotional rather than sexual. I’ve never had an emotional affair with a physically unattractive woman.
I’m really curious about how you maintain contact with 2 LOs in addition to your SO. How does it work? Ie frequency of contact, method of contact, etc? Does your SO know/care? Does it satisfy your needs or leave you in a state of perpetual frustration from wanting more closeness than you can have with them?
Thanks!
Wow, Lost in Space, I don’t know where to begin…
If I am being honest, I am a 10. That’s uncomfortable to admit. I am not a 10 among 10s, probably a 5. My SO gained more than 100 lbs since we married and I am 3-7 pounds heavier than my wedding day weight (I was anorexic back then). I am thin and curvy in all the right places. I am very fit and still feminine. Running is my dope. I love endurance runs! Trail running is my favorite! My SO and I look like a mismatch, but we’re not. He is incredible and I couldn’t be more in love with him. My limerence isn’t about him. I think it stems from my absent dad. I was very close to my grandfather and I think my SO plays that part now. I think my LOs represent my unavailable dad. Idk. I’m still trying to figure this out. They might be my brothers or male friends. I have always preferred male companionship and I have a lot of brothers: 5-ish. I really haven’t figured this out. Oh, but I have other male friends who I have never felt a glimmer for. That might be relevant.
My SO puts up with less-than-perfection from me because I think he genuinely loves me and wants me to be happy. I feel the same way towards him. I really struggle to make friends with women, but I am working on it. We have an agreement that I can have male friends and we have specific boundaries surrounding those friendships. For example, I wanted to go kayaking with one of my male friends last summer. I told my friend that I’m not allowed to be alone with a male friend if I am wearing a swimsuit so either my kids had to join us or his kids had to tag along. His were with their mom for the weekend so my whole family came, including my SO. I made a yummy picnic. We had a lot of fun. My friend said that he admires my husband and that I married well.
How do I maintain contact with my LOs? Mostly text. (Sorry Speedy). I go to lunch with LO2 and his friend sometimes. I talk to LO2, his friend or LO3 on the phone occasionally. Also, I am on a social media site where I have one contact: LO3. It’s a place to post your training. I’d rather not say which site, sorry. Anyway, I hear from LO3 multiple times almost every day on that site. I text with LO2 and his friend in a group text usually, but I text both of them alone sometimes, too. Initiation comes from any of us. My SO knows and even asks how they are doing. For example, LO3 shares a name with my brother, so when I say, “LO3 blah blah blah.” My husband asks, “Your friend or your brother?” My husband respects my male friends and they seem to respect him, too. Sometimes my husband feels insecure or jealous and we talk about it. I am always willing to walk away from any relationship that makes my husband uncomfortable, but he insists that he trusts me and doesn’t want me to cut any of my friends loose.
Pretty crazy huh?
Cool that you do triathlons. My knee is recovering from a marathon and I am almost desperate enough to switch from running to cycling or swimming to let my knee heal. Which part is your favorite? I don’t want to give my identity away, but I live near a world-class triathlon champion. Please don’t ask me to identify him because that will reveal too much about myself. I recently learned that he hates running, lol! That’s hilarious! He loves the competition, loves the swimming and cycling, but hates running. So funny! It makes me laugh when I hear about endurance runners who hate running. I did a 50k with a friend who hates running and it was his idea to do that run. The irony is so funny.
And another thing, the fact that you and LO are “good people” who wouldn’t wreck any homes, can actually make the situation harder. Both of you might feel safer letting your guard down. If you both have your guard down at the same time, you might make a big mistake. I hope that doesn’t happen because I believe both of you try to do better than that.
Good luck, Lost in Space! It’s so nice getting to know you.
Lovisa – I’m a lifelong runner who recently started doing triathlons because of bad knees as well – it’s nice because you can still spend the same total amount of time doing the event, but the running part is much shorter. I’ve spent most of the last 20 years bike commuting to work so the bike part was pretty easy, but swimming is freaking hard, especially in open water which is completely different than pool swimming. Probably because of the challenge it’s also my favorite part though.
Interestingly I went for a swim this afternoon with a close female friend that I train with a lot. She’s not unattractive by any means, but there’s never been a hint of a glimmer and our friendship truly is just friendship. I should probably spend more time thinking about what’s different between her and my current and past LOs.
That’s cool that your SO is so tolerant and understanding. Mine definitely could not be – she only knows about one prior LO (an inappropriately close friendship with a very attractive woman, essentially a one-side EA without disclosure or reciprocity) and even that almost ended our marriage.
One thing I couldn’t figure out from your reply – do you feel satisfied in your current relationships with your LOs? Or are you always left yearning for more, more, more?
Sorry, my head is spinning so it’s hard to focus on your question. I just disclosed to SO. I posted it on the New Years thread.
I want closeness from the current LO. I can be quite content too, though. I feel secure in my connection with LO3 because he is so responsive. We aren’t engaged in any hot and cold behavior. I never have to question his feelings for me because I already know the answer. He has big feelings for me and he doesn’t want to hurt anyone so he won’t act on his feelings.
I hope that answers the question. I did the limerence dance with LO1 for 17 years. It’s exhausting. Your story has a similar feel.
I would love to talk more about your training. I am just so overwhelmed right now that it’s hard to think. Here’s my thing, cycling for more than 20 miles hurts my butt and I never feel like I get as good of a workout as when I run. Also, I am a bad swimmer.
Your training friend has good boundaries. That’s my guess anyway.
Oh, and yes I want more. I have that feeling of never enough, yes. I decided to accept that feeling because I won’t pursue more and if anyone pursued it with me, I would decline.
hi LIS,
It is a sad and sobering realization that more is never enough. My own situation is so much behind yours, Speedwagon and Lovisa.
I havent disclosed and currently dont have reciprication or even an EA. I crave getting to know LO better, but i keep questioning to what end as if i fast forward the “best” outcome would end up where you or Speedwagon are now. I also keep thinking even if things did pan out, when the limerence ends what happens then? It would mean making life changing decisions that i think i would regret.
Do you find the pain you are in now worse than when you didnt know how she felt? I keep thinking that putting more boundries in the way is helpful, but in may ways i also need LOs support and want to be there for her (not just as my employee but as a friend).
Vee…for me the burden of the secret and uncertainty I felt lifted after disclosure. I’m not going to lie, it is a relief, especially since LO is still very warm in her interactions with me. If she distanced herself from me or got creeped out I would not feel the same. I would regret the disclosure and probably feel worse.
The pain of desire and intrusive thoughts for a woman I cannot realize a full romantic relationship with remains and I think that will stay for a good long while. That is the pain I manage every day and just hope that at some point it starts to fade.
Speedwagon I really hope the pain reduces for you. At least you have clarity and knowledge that it is not going to happen – whilst that is painful you can start moving forward. Like you, i have to constantly interact with LO. This week interactions were high and they are only going to increase for me over the next few weeks due to work deadlines. While i know that these are not healthy and they are keeping the limerence going instead of fading, i genuinely look forward to the interactions and feel guilty about that – i dont want to crave these interactions. I like how you have got into a certain routine on interactions to reduce the highs and lows. Right now i am i the thick of the highs and lows.
Hey Vee! The pain has been better this week. Same amount of interactions at the office but my evenings have been a little better. But tomorrow evening I meet her SO for the first time and that is making me anxious a bit. I think she is anxious about it too. Should be OK though, it is in a group setting and I can keep a distance.
I would say it took a good 6 months or so before my in office interactions with LO stopped being such a trigger. In the early days, when LO and I were starting to connect more personally at the office, I would feel so good, then the crash would come early evening and stay with me until went to sleep. I remember so many nights getting in bed feeling so deflated and down. But then I would wake up next morning feeling OK just to do it all over again.
Now, our interactions are still the same but I am used to them and they don’t trigger depressive emotions in me later. In those first six months I broke down and cried in the evenings about every other week, now I have not cried for a good few months. That’s progress.
The key is just to keep things in routine. If I were you I would not shy away from these meetings, because then when you do have meetings, the meetings become more of a reward. Maybe try to normalize them so they become more of a common event in your day. Just stay away from heavy personal talk which can be a bonding mechanism. My LO and I still have superficial personal chit chat quite a bit but I do not talk about heavy subjects with her. It helps that she is poor at conversation though.
I would say that since I disclosed she has become warmer to me in our interactions. I think she does have a good bit of affection for me and likes my attention but she is not limerent like I am. She seems quite in control of herself.
Hi Vee! Nice to meet you!
I like what you said about fast forwarding- in substance use recovery we talk a lot about “playing the tape forward” by pausing to think about the long term outcomes of choices we make today. Let’s say I let myself drift from my EA to a full PA. Then eventually we get found out or the feelings grow so strong that we blow everything up and start an actual life together. What then? Eventually the limerence fades, LO becomes SO2, and it’s just a matter of time before the next LO comes around. So you end up right back where you started, except maybe now with alimony, child support, a trail of broken hearts and a mountain of guilt.
During a phone conversation last month, LO told me something like “I need to stop pretending we have a future together. You’re not going to leave your wife for me. And if you did, you wouldn’t be the kind of man I’d actually want to be with. And if we did end up together, I’d always be worried about you leaving me for someone else, because I’d know you were the type of man who could do that.”
Is the pain worse after disclosure and EA? Yes! Far worse than anything I’d ever experienced in my prior undisclosed LEs. Imagine a 40 year old man, with 15 years of relatively happy marriage, 3 beautiful kids, a rewarding career, good friends, fulfilling hobbies. A respected professional, successful, head of a major department. Imagine that man sitting in his office alone, literally sobbing, whole body shaking, because the woman in the office down the hall said we needed to take a 2 week break because the feelings had gotten too strong. Imagine him spending the next week having horrible muscle aches, heart palpitations, nausea, shortness of breath hitting him in waves every time he thought about her. Until we both broke down and re-established contact a week later (although we still haven’t been alone in person)
The emotions just got so intense. We spent hours talking about such personal and deep topics, got to know each other so well – she was no longer a fantasy object but a real woman with whom I’d fallen madly in love. And so the thought of losing her just absolutely destroyed me, even though I knew that being with her was so wrong and so dangerous to everything and everyone else in my life.
I heard a rap song the other day that had this spoken word outro that went something like this: “You shouldn’t do drugs harder than you are. If you’re a soft ass mothaf@&$er, don’t do hard drugs, because they’ll kick your ass.” I learned through this experience that when it comes to experiences like this, I’m a soft-ass MF and I need to stay away from the hard stuff because it’s just too much for me.
That said, it’ll be interesting to see how I feel about this 6 months or 6 years from now, assuming I do make it through unscathed. Will it still be a source of pain? Or will it be something I look back at and remember fondly once some time has passed? I asked LO once (while we were both feeling heartbroken) if she wished she could go back in time and prevent this all from happening. She immediately said “absolutely not!” That the heartache would eventually fade but she’ll always cherish getting to know me so well and that she wants us to always be friends. So I hope that’s how it ends up feeling in the long run, and I probably wouldn’t say I’d go back and erase this incident if I could, but I certainly will do everything possible to prevent myself from having a similar experience anytime in the future because I have no desire to go through this ever again. And hopefully my story can serve as a warning to other married people who are thinking about disclosing. I can’t tell anyone else what’s right for them, but I would definitely advise them to think long and hard first.
Vee – another thing about disclosure is that it can be incredibly dangerous if you’re married and don’t actually want to end up in a PA and/or end your marriage. Because now the situation is firmly out of the realm of individual fantasy and there’s another person fully involved. People are unpredictable, so really anything could happen. They could report you to HR for harassment. They could tell your SO. They could reciprocate and come after you so strongly you don’t say no and end up getting physical. You just can’t know until it’s possibly too late.
In my case… it got so freaking dangerous. I have a private office at work with no windows and a door that locks, in a pretty hidden-away area of the building. It would pretty much be the perfect place to have sex with a coworker and get away with it. Prior to disclosure, she’d find reasons to visit me in my office sometimes and we’d chat, but there was never any threat of anything happening, because as far as we both knew, the other one didn’t have any feelings beyond friendship. After disclosure, that totally changed.
We decided to cut contact right after disclosure, but that only lasted a few days and then we were back at it, texting all the time and her coming to my office daily. But now the energy and dynamic was totally different, because I knew she wanted me and she knew I wanted her. The sexual tension was crazy. Our hugs got longer and tighter, our looks got hungrier, she’d find reasons to touch my leg or my chest while talking. We’d have these hypothetical “what if?” discussions that always ended with us saying how important it was not to cross the line. She’d say things like “it’s good you have so much self control because it would be horrible if something happened, but I know I couldn’t stop myself if you made a move”. Basically, we both wanted it so freaking badly, but we also both knew it was so, so wrong, and we ended up doing this crazy dance to see just how close we could get to the flame without getting burned. It was exhilarating, intoxicating, and ridiculously dangerous. Somehow we both held strong, and after a couple weeks of that we had a long phone call and texting session and agreed to stop seeing each other in person – that was a month ago and since then we’ve only had contact by phone and text.
So I seem to have survived so far (although I know I’m not totally out of danger), but if LO had been a little more aggressive and/or less concerned about hurting my wife, it likely would have turned out totally different, and right now I’d be caught up in a complicated PA that ended up destroying a lot of people’s lives (my SO, my kids, and ultimately LO and I as well). In the headspace I was in last month, I really don’t think I could have stopped anything if she’d kissed me or something, so it was just so dangerous to let myself get into that position in the first place where my entire future and life was dependent on another person
LIS,
Well done on dodging that bullet! You both know the turf you’re on.
The question becomes, can you maintain your boundaries?
I have $5 that one of you will cave and test them. If for no other reason than to see if the connection is still alive.
I can’t quite tell how attached you are to your LO. There’s definitely a relationship and from what she said about leaving your wife and being the kind of man she’d want to be with, it sounds like she’s pretty attached. She’s thinking ahead, looking at a potential future. And, she doesn’t see one, at least that’s what she said. However…
That’s flattering. But it’s really scary.
On the other hand, I know 3 people who left long term marriages to be with someone else and did quite well. My wife’s grandfather allegedly “walked out” on his wife and kids and married another woman. They were married 40 years until that woman died.
When the EAP counselor asked what I wanted from my “relationship” with LO #4, I told her that I didn’t want to attach to LO #4 and I sure as hell didn’t want LO #4 attaching to me.
The EAP counselor chuckled and said, “That ship has already sailed.”
When LO #4 said goodbye, it was like Moses had parted the Red Sea. I had a way out and I took it. That was 7 years ago.
LE – thanks for reading and for your thoughts. To answer your question, I feel extremely attached to her. Emotionally I don’t feel like I dodged a bullet or like the Red Sea is parting if our relationship ends. I feel like I miss her so bad it hurts and I’m grieving the loss of our relationship. Now the rational part of my brain, separate from my emotions, can see that I was really fortunate it didn’t go further and that she seems to be pulling away now. But my heart sure doesn’t believe it right now and all I want to do is see her and talk to her right now and I’m sitting here all distraught because I texted her 3 hours ago and she hasn’t responded, which never would have happened anytime in the past 3 months, but has been increasingly common in the past 2 weeks. I can just sense her heart has changed toward me and she’s determined to pull away.
If I was single, I would 100% want to dive into a serious relationship with her. The ONLY thing stopping me is my commitment to my SO. If I was somehow allowed to have 2 wives (now we’re getting into crazy fantasy land) I feel like I’d want to marry her too (me and LO actually joked last month about joining a polygamist cult being the solution for our problem). If LO was willing to continue a long term discrete EA indefinitely, I would definitely want that.
But even though she hasn’t come out and said it, I feel increasingly certain that our relationship is going to end, because I’m just not willing to leave my marriage for her, and she’s not willing to hang around forever as second place in my life (and I respect her a ton for that). So at this point I’m trying to resign myself to it being over and not act too desperate trying to hold onto someone who has made the decision to pull away for her own mental self- preservation.
I think she is trying to do the right thing, Lost in Space. I’m sorry this will be very hard on you.
LiS – well done on your restraint. I admire how you have not crossed the PA line and that you are doing the right thing for your SO. It must be so hard for you to be in this position.
I keeping thinking reciprication must be amazing but this has changed my perspective.
Reducing contact with LO is not an option right now for me which makes keeping these feelings to myself both difficult and frustrating. I also feel that i want no contact to improve my mental state but have no way of doing that. Each interaction (with this wonderful person who has no idea how i feel and probably has no similar feelings other than professional admiration for me as her mentor\boss) just pushes me back a few steps and makes me crave more out of our relationship.
Being able to share my ups and downs here has definitely helped and hearing from the people on here has been great. Its a tough battle to fight alone.
LIS,
“But even though she hasn’t come out and said it, I feel increasingly certain that our relationship is going to end, because I’m just not willing to leave my marriage for her, and she’s not willing to hang around forever as second place in my life (and I respect her a ton for that). ”
You should probably start thinking about how it’s going to end. It’s not something you want to leave entirely to chance.
“When trust has been breached, so has respect–and second chances can be very few and far between. Whether you’ve chosen to step away from a new relationship or a long-established one, how you orchestrate that ending is crucial, because it’s typically what someone remembers most about you.” – Shari Schreiber https://sharischreiber.com/whos-doing-your-dirty-work/
You also don’t want to hurt or piss off your LO to the point they lash out at you and take your head. Most don’t but it’s not entirely unheard of.
Hey Lost in Space, I am worried about my knee. The x-ray looks good. The doctor thinks it’s inflammation. I guess I keep reinjuring it. It is so hard not to run. I know you understand that feeling, but it’s crazy talk to most people. I can last a day or two, but then I get antsy. I want to bounce an idea off of you. Maybe this week I can focus on strength training and cycling and I might be able to hold myself back from running, hiking or walking. I can’t commit because I know myself and I will probably give in to the temptation. The other day my SO said it would be wise if I stopped running when my knee hurts. He wanted me to commit right before a run. I said, “It’s easy for me to make that promise while I’m standing in our kitchen, but I know myself and I just don’t trust that I’ll follow through.” I am a boundary pusher. My inner coach says, “Are you going to let that hold you back?” Ugh! This drive serves me well when I am in-tact, but it drives me nuts when I’m injured. What do you think about my cycling plan? Here is the strength training that I am experimenting with.
https://youtu.be/9SzlYxuOSpg
I also have a full body routine that I will do in addition to these extra exercises.
I have some questions, too. Does the heart rate monitor matter as much during cycling as it does during a run? My chest strap gives me owies, but I like that it is more accurate than my watch.
Please let me know what you think. Thanks in advance!
Lovisa – I’d say absolutely yes to cross training and yes to strength training in particular.
I think I probably have a torn meniscus in my right knee. Xrays were normal and I never got an MRI, but for like 2 years anytime I’d run more than 2-3 miles my knee would swell up and fill with fluid for a couple of days. I was super frustrated being unable to run nearly as much as I wanted.
So, counter-intuitive as it sounds, I started doing barbell squats 3 times per week to strengthen my leg muscles in general and my quads in particular. I also switched to cycling, swimming and martial arts training to keep up my cardio conditioning in place of running. I started super light with just the bar, and increased the weight little by little to where now I’m doing 5×5 with 225lbs – not super heavy by weight lifting standards, but more than most endurance runners are used to doing.
And the result was awesome! The knee pain disappeared, I found I could run more and more without any adverse consequences later, and I just hit a half marathon PR a couple months ago! So yes, in my experience strength training can do wonders for a bad knee and get you back to the type of running you want to do.
Regarding the heart rate monitor, I’m the wrong guy to ask – I’m a pretty unsophisticated trainer. I use my garmin to tell me speed/pace and cadence when running, but that’s about it.
Cheers!
Thanks Lost in Space and congratulations on the PR! 225 lbs sounds like a big deal to me, but I understand why it feels a little humble to you. If I talk to a normal person about my running, I look like a superhero. But to an experienced runner, I am a beginner. It’s such a strange feeling.
Thanks for sharing your experience. That knee problem would drive me nuts! I’m so glad you are on the other side of it. I love martial arts, too, but I am cheap and don’t like paying for it, lol. Right now, I can’t even do 1 mile without knee pain. The pain was intense yesterday while we climbed a steep, icy slope. My seven-year-old daughter was scared and I acted confident, but I was thinking, “How will we get through this safely when I can’t even use my leg properly?” We got through it. I am so hopeful that cross training will fill my need for physical exertion without re-injuring myself. I did 11 miles on the bike today and it felt great! I feel like I still need a workout, but I’ll get used to that feeling I guess. Thank you for your encouragement!
Btw, I am obsessed with the run data. It’s part of the excitement for me. I love love love math, so the data feels like playtime. I know, what a dork. Feel free to roll your eyes, I deserve it.
Lovisa – weight lifting numbers are all about the ratio to the lifter’s own weight. For squats, most people would say that 1.5 times your body weight is a pretty good achievement. So for me at 190lbs to squat 225 is alright but not great, whereas that same squat for, say, a 120 lb person would be pretty darn impressive. But ultimately, unless you’re a competitive power lifter or need the numbers to stroke your ego, the numbers don’t really matter – it’s all about achieving your goals, like rehabbing an injury and helping to injury-proof yourself for the future (and maybe as a side effect, improving your physique for both your LO and SO 😉
If you’re interested in triathlons, look for a sprint distance tri to start with. It’s a 1/2 mile swim, 13 mile ride and 3 mile run. In terms of time and effort level, it comes out about the same as a half marathon, but with a lot less running on bad knees. If that gets to be too easy, you can move up to the Olympic distance which is double everything. I enjoy the sprint distance, and the training requirements fit into my life with a full time job and 3 kids
Awesome, thanks for the tip! I hadn’t heard of the sprint distance. Oh it’s killing me. I used to do at least a half marathon a week. I think my longest run last week was… oh never mind it was 13.1. I forgot I did a half marathon distance, I was going to complain about my short runs, but I checked my journal. Silly me, I need to be more grateful. I really like the 40-mile run week. I appreciate your encouragement and advice very much. It will help me adjust my attitude towards cross training. I keep telling myself that if I don’t run, I’ll get my knee back then I can run all I want.
I usually weigh around 124 so 225 sounds like a big deal to me. I guess I didn’t consider that your male body can lift so much more than mine. Silly me.
Lovisa – I suspect your biggest challenge if you get into strength training will be to keep your obsessive/competitive side in check and make yourself go slow. I’ve hurt myself a few times in the past lifting weights because I’d get too excited about challenging myself and too impatient to reach some arbitrary goal, and then I’d try something I shouldn’t and feel something tear and then have a 3 month setback.
As I mentioned, this time around I literally started just squatting the bar and adding 5 lbs each time. At first it felt way too easy and like a waste of time, but I forced myself to go slow and stick to the schedule and I’ve ended up gradually making good progress without injuring myself. I suspect, based on what you’ve shared with me so far, that you’re going to struggle with that same issue of wanting to push your limits faster than your tendons and ligaments can handle.
You think all of us here are just limit pushers in general who get restless with the status quo and feel like we just have to find out what more is possible?
Yes! I suspect we are limit pushers here at LwL. I know I am! Thanks for the words of caution. My struggles with training are in fact recovery and not overdoing it.
“I have $5 that one of you will cave and test them. If for no other reason than to see if the connection is still alive.”
If LO came back after 9 months even if it were for a visit I wouldn’t trust myself to be on my best behavior around her. Its why even when she was around, when she was my co-worker I maintained no outside working hours communication because I know where it would have lead. I know myself enough to know my limits and not test those limits.
If she could easily make me putty in her hand within the confounds of work, outside of work would just be asking for disaster. And she didn’t even intentionally try to do it. She just could without any effort.
Song of the Day: “Reason to Believe” – Rod Stewart (1971)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN0DlRZpUT8
LO #4 came out of the woodwork after 3 months NC. When I told my fellow moderator and real life friend that I was leaving, LO #4 sent me a FB request. We’d known each other for several years and that had never come up.
After I accepted her friend request, I had a dream about LO #4 in which I almost drove my car over a cliff. The EAP counselor said that it didn’t take a gypsy to figure that one out. When I asked LO #4 if it was ok if we weren’t FB friends, LO #4 said, “No problem.” When I checked a few minutes later, not only were we no longer friends, she blocked me.
That was the beginning of the end. Things changed between us. They were never the same after that. The EAP counselor said that I’d hit LO #4 with a bucket of cold water. She was looking for a reason to believe and I didn’t give her one. She got too close and I threw her out.
If you want the LE to end and your LO to go away, don’t give them a reason to believe.
I thankfully do not really worry about LO coming back around either in person, on the phone or online. I think she is 100% occupied with her new life, gentleman friend and job with not much thought of me I would imagine.
And yes I was this LE to be over. Now I just need the limerent part of my brain to cooperate.
Adam i know how you feel. I cannot go NC and see LO every week. It is so painful as it means my limerence doesnt reduce and just stays the same or gets worse (even when i think i am getting somewhere). The interactions are great but the aftermath is horrific.
Count your blessings – NC is a real blessing.
Vee somedays I feel the limerence is worse in her absence compared to when she was present. And the fact that she knows how to contact me but hasn’t. It’s been almost 9 months since she left.
I think why the limerence remains is that outside of initially meeting her (I didn’t develop limerence until over a year of knowing her) I didn’t pair bond with her as a potential mate but in a platonic manner. As I got to know her more I more and more enjoyed her company and talking to her. Listening to her when she needed someone, helping her with problems or tasks at work to help reduce her stress. I liked the feeling that I was helping her and she was thankful for it.
And now she is gone. I take solace in the fact that she is in a happy place in life even in my absence. I hope that fact will someday help me completely detach from her and move on. But at the moment I am not very hopeful.
I wish I read this earlier, I know this article is 5 years old, but it is just as relevant as ever.
I was limerent for a coworker for a good 3 years (it was actually pretty hellish in retrospect)
If you’re reading this, just know this is a cautionary tale, SO YOU DON’T END UP LIKE ME. Nip it at the bud. Go no contact or just at an arms length so things remain professional and less limerent.
Early on, he was a lovebomber and kept making me feel like I was the best thing that came into his life. Would choose me during shoot shag marry games because “I always offered something new to the table”. Kissed my hand and had the occasional physical touch because oh well we were friends. This creates the perfect ground for god-fucking-awful limerence.
He was manipulative, so after reading a few articles on this site I realise, he was the one of the worst people to make an LO. Easily flirting, all about himself, manipulative, always wanted someone to do something for him, easily dropped people at the drop of a finger. He also spent time with me when he was supposed to reassure his ex-gf that he was at home and sleeping. BIG MAJOR RED ASS FLAGS.
And of course, me being the limerent one, kept telling myself stories that he was greater and better than anyone I have ever encountered. Kept telling myself he was still a nice person, and that it was only just that one time.
I got carried away too, I always bought him expensive gifts and did him favours that frustrated him. He was like how this website describes, a basketcase, did not know how to reject me succinctly and politely. He would tell and ask me about resistance bands for instance, and I’d buy him a few the next day. Instead of politely rejecting or telling me he didn’t want it, he kept silent and told all my mutual friends he did not want to remain in contact with me ever again.
It left me with a difficult situation where I’d have to deal with him at work (clue: many life or death situations) where communication is vital, impertinent. I would get frustrated because I would want a response, and his default would to just keep mum. He was always this kind, helpful upstanding coworker in my mind, and to see him just blatantly ignoring me, it honestly hurt so much.
He kept this diva and less than professional attitude towards the end of last year and would be hot and cold. He would ignore me at work, and then when my manager asks him if he would want to take part in a musical I curated, he readily said yes.
It was horrendous, I wanted his cooperation in the musical, the recording, the choreography but he would just grey-rock. He started making me feel like I was the problem. Maybe I was, but I really didn’t deserve all the attitude.
I would point out his mistakes at work, i.e leaving a spoilt medication cart for a whole shift and only making ONE phone call to fix it (my colleague and I had to constantly request for medications to be sent to us one-by one), and not wanting to do his changes for his shift.
By now, I realized my LO was a narc because he got blown up after I called him out and he proceeds to shout at me in my manager’s office. When I apologized and tried to rectify with him, he kept giving me less than savoury responses, long story short, he became super difficult to work with. I was crying in locker rooms/break rooms after almost every encounter I had with him.
I confided in my manager again about his lackadaisical attitude with his work, and for some weird and unprofessional reason, he got to know about it. It became another shouting match, already going into verbal abuse. He started calling me names, like “dog”, started shaming for seeking therapy to deal with feelings for him. Started blaming me for giving all those gifts to him. It was horrendous. I couldn’t just stand there and watch him rip my soul apart with his taunts, so I fought back. My manager kept telling me that she did not know what to do with my situation. I was at a loss. I was already so heartbroken because my love wasn’t reciprocated and to deal with something like that at a workplace was the nail on the coffin.
I confided in HR about this horrendous situation and they decided to send the both of us away from our original wards. Funny thing, he is still under my former manager, (lol they kept him), I finally realized my loyalty never meant anything to them.
I was sad, even crying to the directors and management, but now that I am in a new environment I’m kinda glad. I got to start afresh, and I don’t have mutual colleagues breaking me apart telling me that I should have never confessed to him or bought him gifts. My ex-colleagues were never good at being compassionate and understanding towards my situation and kept siding him.
I learnt so many things from this experience, and it is honestly to better to keep your personal life private especially in a professional setting. I was carried away, obsessed with the dude and telling a lot of people about him but it came biting me in the butt.
Here’s to living a purposeful life away from ex-narc LO and even if I’m limerent, I hope to fall for someone who’s worth it, not this asshole.
Thanks for this site Dr L!! I am usually someone who needs a lot of reassurance, reading this site, makes me feel tons better, and keeps me grounded.
Welcome to LwL!
It sounds like you came to the right place.
The way the site’s set up, only the last 12 posts show on the main page. At the rate people are commenting on things ATM, it’s easy for comments to just drop off and get lost.
There are ways to track your comments. Maybe DrL can add one of those.
Sorry to hear about your experience. If you haven’t yet, check out
https://livingwithlimerence.com/is-your-limerent-object-a-narcissist/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/narcissist-los/
Those might help you validate your experience. That can be huge in getting past it.
Greetings LwL,
I’ve been lurking for a while and reading several articles here which I think have been quite enlightening. I’ve suspected for some months now that I am prone to limerence and always have been. It is heartening to know that others can and do manage life with similar difficulties as I have. I am a middle-aged man but never married, no current SO, and close to giving up on the idea of ever having one.
In hindsight, my history with limerence goes back several decades to my first real crush. The kind that can both cripple your emotional state as well as set a clear idea of the kind of woman you seek out for the rest of your life. I was young and stupid so never plucked up the courage to disclose to LO#1 even when I knew she was single and suspected that she might have felt the same for me. My self-doubt got in the way. Eventually our paths diverged and we grew apart but it took me the better part of about 10 years to fully accept what never was. I may or may not have had a chance with her, either way I missed it and will regret it for the rest of my life.
Fast forward to today and after several attempts at online dating I’ve binned that whole concept as a waste of time and effort. My introverted personality type is not suited to that method of meeting potential romantic interests. In fact, I believe my personality type combined with my personal circumstances leaves me particularly prone to develop limerence. I live alone and have no family left in the country, and my social circle consists of a handful of very close friends, all of whom are married with kids. The introverted trait of an analytical mind combined with plenty of comfortable alone time means my mind has no barriers or distractions to prevent downward spirals into ruminations and fantasies. When not limerent I have used these times to delve deeply into the philosophy of Stoicism.
My philosophical journeys came to an abrupt halt recently (can’t concentrate anymore) when a new girl started work in my division. She is qualified in the exact same discipline as I am except she has very little experience where I am in some ways one of the office boffins and unofficially expected to pass down skills and knowledge to the younger team members. She seems eager to learn but instead of youthful exuberance she has a kind of tranquil confidence and soft-spoken manner that instantly reminded me of the last person I knew like this: my mother (who passed away some years ago). I barely know a thing about her other than her age and qualifications, and yet my fall into limerence has been very sudden and very strong. I am now aware of my limerence, however, unlike previously times and have been cautious about it so far. I don’t even know if she has an SO or not, although I think it likely given her looks.
There’s a few problems I can foresee for me in the near future. Avoidance or limiting contact is going to be difficult in our professional setting. So far she has also shown particular interest in me about a few things outside of work that we happened to chat about. Nothing overly personal but things that any reasonable person might consider noteworthy. Other colleagues might ask about them occasionally, whereas she will almost certainly ask about them. In hindsight it was my mistake for mentioning these things in the first place. Countering my limerence by focussing on her flaws is impossible because she has none. At least none that my bewitched senses can identify yet.
I think my only option for now is to constantly remind myself that she is young enough to be my daughter, probably already has an SO, and unlikely to be romantically interested in a mild-mannered, average-looking, middle-aged bookworm.
Hi StoicMustard, I love your alias. Clue is one of my favorite games and your name reminds me of Colonel Mustard. Welcome to our club!
“ Countering my limerence by focussing on her flaws is impossible because she has none.”
That is funny. My LO is perfect, too. Limerents are good at overlooking red flags.
I was eager to say, “What are you waiting for? Pursue her!” Until you mentioned that she is young enough to be your daughter. Oh nuts. This is going to be hard on you. Let’s see…
Speedwagon is experimenting with leaning into his relationships with other female friends to take the edge off of his limerence. Can you try that? Please remember that this girl did not cause the problem. Please don’t take it out in her.
Good luck!
Hi StoicMustard, welcome. Thanks for sharing your story.
As a long term romantic partner, her being 20+ years younger is probably a tough hurdle to overcome. You may have different goals in life and she may be uncomfortable with that age difference. But, don’t count her out as a possible good friend if you think you can handle a close friendship with this woman and if that is appropriate in your work atmosphere and roles.
My LO is 14 years younger than me and is my employee in a small office who I need to collaborate with almost daily. We are both married so insurmountable barrier. I have learned how to interact with her at the office and not have it be crushing on me because our interactions stay fairly routine, and I don’t dive into heavy personal matters with her. This has kept my LE somewhat stable. But I’m not past it by any means. I just manage it so I can function in life.
You might have the luxury of no barriers (other than age which may or may not be a barrier) so if you find a chemistry with this woman relationally you may want to explore it. It may not be romantic, but maybe it provides some closeness you seek. On the other hand, if the limerence consumes you by getting to know this person more personally and you can’t handle ‘just friendship’ maybe you need to practice keeping her at arms distance and only having a strict professional relationship with her.
There are a ton of blog articles here at LwL that cover a ton of situations so read up and keep checking in. Let us know how it goes.
“ Countering my limerence by focussing on her flaws is impossible because she has none.”
I know that feeling exactly. My LO was a co-worker (she since moved on) and quite younger than me as well. And she was (I swear she still is no matter what people say) a perfect angel. She was also single when I first met her, and I am married.
As Miss Lovisa warns that don’t take your frustrations with your limerence out on her. In hindsight, since she left, I can see that the issues in my marriage and drifting through mid-life had a lot to do with getting a glimmer for LO and getting attached the way that I did to her.
LO was a very friendly and sweet lady and was always understanding when we worked together. By how you describe your colleague she seems to have the disposition LO did and its easy to forget she just has a pleasant personality and see more than there is, making the limerence even worse or the start of the glimmer.
And as you mentioned with your colleague, LO is a very attractive woman. The kind that’s out of any man’s league if you ask me. And don’t we all like pretty gals?
Best of luck to you. And don’t be afraid to post more. I’ve been here about a month and the community here has been so helpful. And seems Miss Lovisa is here 24/7 lol She is always ready to help.
Hello everyone, I finally decided to delurk. Came here to discuss my work LO. We were good work friends, working in close proximity, for about nine months. She lives across the country, so no physical contact until early February, when we finally met in person. The chemistry was real, and we kept gravitating to each others’ presence during the three day seminar. I realized I was in deep trouble when she went back home and I started missing her. I didn’t say or do anything with my LO that I wouldn’t do in front of my wife; only contact was a hug, no flirting, no innuendo.
In fact, that weekend was hell. Couldn’t get her off my mind, no matter what I tried. Couldn’t wait for Monday, and I made up excuses to call her, IM her (at work), the whole rest of it. This pattern repeated for another weekend, and then I made an appointment with a CBT counselor. Counselor’s given me good advice, and then I found this website.
Both the LO and I are married. Don’t know much about her marriage (she doesn’t mention him a lot), but I know that I cherish my marriage (and I mention this a lot to the LO, who says she wants to meet my wife). The day I married my wife was easily the happiest day of my life, and eight years later, I love her even more than I did on our wedding day. Wife knows LO is a good work friend, not sure she knows I have a crush on her. She definitely knew something’s been bothering me, and I only describe it in vague terms. My wife is supportive of anything that helps me feel better.
The attraction seems to be mutual, LO told me she respected me, said I was brilliant, even said she admired me for keeping to a work/life balance. She remembers little details about my life – even remembered the name of my ex-wife, something I only mentioned once. A couple days ago, she asked me detailed questions about my weekend – did I go to that conditioning class I mentioned? How brutal was it? I think she truly cares about me. I tried to extricate myself from this conversation – I’m sure you have a meeting in 10 minutes, so I’ll let you go. No meeting, let’s keep chatting (and like a fool, I went along). I spoke to a female friend about the LO, who shared her version her own work crush, and this friend is telling me that my LO is really into me, which is good for my ego, and reassuring at a certain level, but also troubling at another level.
My resolve is that we only talk about work stuff, nothing personal. The first day I tried it (last week), she called me to talk about work, noticed I was in a bad mood (only two hours sleep the night before – guess what I was obsessing about), and asked about me. I snapped at her “it’s personal and I don’t want to talk about it”), and then immediately apologized for being a jerk. Sigh, small steps I guess. I’m doing OK keeping to this resolve, but it’s extremely difficult.
I want to go full NC, but that’s only doable at a very high price. My two options to go full NC seem to be either a) leave the company or b) request to be transferred to another project. My manager is very good to me, and just gave me the best performance review of my career, so leaving the company is not palatable. Option B has potential, but the boss just gave me this high profile project (with the LO) in early January, is expecting good things from me, and if I were to tell him I have to leave it for personal reasons, it would screw him over, and start God knows what sort of rumors, which neither the boss nor I need. Project will last until at least second quarter 2024. Yay.
In the past couple of days, some of the polish is coming off the LO, I’m starting to focus on her traits that I don’t like. (For example, her ambition exceeds her abilities, which in my mind makes her dangerous.) This is slow work, and I’m not expecting a solution anytime soon. But, I’m supposed to be at a work conference with her at the end of March (I might be able to get out of that one), they’re talking about an in-person team meeting in April, and finally another work meeting in mid-June.
Fellow limerencers with a work LO, how did you deal with this? What strategies work best?
Thanks for your advice and support.
Sun Monster
Your story is quite familiar to me. I too was assigned to a project with LO at work. Previously we both worked in two different locations within the same company. I was assigned to help LO on a project for 4 months. I had no choice as I was the only other one in the company that could do what LO did to finish this project.
I fell hard and fast. LO was just a kind and sweet lady. She did nothing that I could tell to solicit the attention I gave her. I was just seeing more than what was there in her words and actions. Then the special treatment. I would bring coffee or breakfast to the office most mornings but it was always something LO expressed that she liked in conversation. So yeah I was doing it for her I was just smart enough to bring enough for everyone. I bought her a Christmas gift in 2021, the year that we worked together that 4 months.
Unlike your situation LO left the company in June of 2022. She decided to move on to another job. She was single when she first moved to that location from another department in the company. Around fall of 2021 she met the young man that she is wife now. She decided to take a new path in life and so she choose NC herself. I had no say in it.
Since June I have been successful in maintaining NC. I leave that to LO if she wants to contact me she knows how. In that time since she has only called me one time on the phone, when she was visiting the location she use to work at. It put me on a high for weeks after getting to talk to her for that 10-15 minutes. Though if I could have found the words I would have tried to make it last forever.
The one thing that helps me maintain NC with LO is that I know that she is happy with this man she is with. He seems to genuinely care about her and her daughters. LO had recently been divorced when I first met her in 2020. I have to put LO’s happiness first even if it causes me the pain that it is. There is a line in a song that has great perspective ….
“You’ll only know you love her when you let her go.”
Let Her Go — Passenger
But I totally understand where you are at now. I was there. The high of LO and your logic being mitigated by the limerence. It’s a difficult battle. All the rationalization of your words and actions. Pushing your logic to the back of your head saying that you can handle this balance. All the while completely oblivious to the fact that most people around you can see it. Possibly even your spouse as you said yours notice a change in you. As someone here says “your limerence bleeds out of you” and that’s why other people can observe a change in you all the while you think you are handling it fine because your limerent brain tells you that you are and you believe it.
You have a road to travel that I have not had to in the last 9 months. LO saw to that whether it was intentional or not. I have no idea what she saw in my words and actions. She never voiced any which way. But if the rest of the staff at that office could tell I had a crush on LO than I am sure she could too.
I am wishing you the best. And echo what Speedwagon said; feel free to post as much as you want. There are people here in all kinds of circumstances with their LO. And there are people that are willing to listen and help. This is a great place to find a listening ear.
Hi, and welcome, SunMonster. I see my LO (a consultant to my firm) only about once a month or two months at meetings. So that limited exposure helps. A few other strategies: NC (or LC to work issues only) outside meetings; choose a seat out of his sight-line or put my back to him in meetings; avoid eye contact – I even leave my glasses on sometimes, even though I am short sighted so only need them for reading – this makes people far from me blurry so I can’t even see him clearly; No initiating or prolonging conversation; keep conversation strictly to polite greetings and work matters if I can (we are both married so we need to be careful not to arouse suspicion by being rude); make sure others are seated next to me so he can’t; sometimes saying my mantras in my head during contact with him; ask others for help unless he is literally the only one who can help; changing the subject if conversation gets too personal. These are just some of the suggestions I have learned through this site and the Emergency Deprogramming Course (highly recommended!). Good luck! You’ll find a wealth of resources and a very supportive community here.
Hello TP,
I’ve come independently to the same advice as you gave.
I got out of the end of the month in-person meeting, so that’s good. LO called on Friday looking for advice on how she can be more tactful with a problem co-worker. I gave her the advice and think I kept things professional, not personal.
She turns her camera on during work meetings, which I need to find a way to block. Unfortunately, her MS Teams picture shows up in all her emails, and that picture is so beautiful.
Trying to focus on her negatives, and it is helping a little.
Been going to other people for answers first instead of LO, and when we talk, I frequently say things like “I’m sure you have other things to do”; might be time to assert that I have other things to do. Found a mantra, sits on a post-it on my monitor: I have better things to do.
Hi Sun Monster, welcome! Sorry to hear of the turmoil a work LO has caused. If you have read my story at all in the Rescue Fantasy or New Years Purpose blog you will know that just a little over a year ago I became limerent for one of my employees. It struck very suddenly after working with this woman for over 3 years and it sent my life in a tailspin.
My situation was/is very tough because I could not escape this woman. I was not going to fire her because of my LE so I had to learn to coexist with her in the midst of limerence. For a great while I though the attraction was mutual, and things led eventually to me disclosing a couple months back. Turns out she was not attracted to me and had only felt close friendship.
Oddly, I am now in a bit of a limerent fade with her which is a relief.
Here is what I did to manage my LE in the midst of coexisting with LO.
First, I set a LC strategy. This basically included no personal interactions with LO other than required face to face work interactions at the office. I did not want to text, I did do any lunch outings alone, or take her on our if office work business alone. Over time our in office collaborations started to become routine and the reward of them felt less and less. I was able to handle the daily in office routine with her fairly well.
But, the pitfall for me was off hours texting. My LO had the tendency to text me personally from time to time, in the evening, on the weekend. This sent my limerent mind on overdrive. If I indulged in the texting, which became heavy in December with LO, the I would find myself in a euphoric/depressive rollercoaster. So now, after disclosure, I do not text with her. Basically texting is a bad LE trigger for me, I don’t handle it well so I eliminated it.
I also am in a very good marriage, and during LE I have increased my love and attention for my SO. It’s a weird thing to love and cherish your SO and yet be totally infatuated and have desire and love for another person at the same time. But improving my relationship with SO has been helpful too.
Last, I have developed a nice friendship with another woman at my office that is truly friendship and not limerence. This woman is more relationally compatible with me than LO and I have leaned into this friendship more in last couple months. This has helped a bit too…finding other people to invest in emotionally than LO.
As of now, I still try to keep to my LC routine with LO. My limerence is not gone, I still desire LO a great deal, but it is also not distressing to me much any more. For me, I try to control the narrative and not do anything where I expect any certain behavior out of LO. Limerence is really about the expectation of reciprocation to feed the hit of reward from LO. If I don’t set up any expectation then I can’t be let down. My office routine with LO is such that I don’t have expectation from her any longer and I can coexist with her without feeling high and then dropping to a low later. It’s fairly stable.
Hope this helps, it sounds like you are in a good position to make your normal day to day fairly mundane and routine with LO. You will just have to get through these face to face moments with her that pop up a couple times a year. And as always, it will take cooperation on LOs part not to pursue you. If you read the blog on NC you will see Dr L recommends a staged withdrawal and you sound like you are already taking that tactic. Good on you, keep it up.
Grammer correction…no lunch outings alone or out of office outings alone.
Hello Speedwagon,
One very good thing is that my LO and I don’t contact each other off- hours. We have each other’s personal cell numbers, but we’ve never used them, and I’ve never been seriously tempted.
Like you, I’m struck by how weird it is that I love my wife so much, but am still limerent for someone else. Intellectually, the limerence would make sense if I were unhappy with my wife, but that’s just not the case.
Your story gives me hope, thanks for sharing.
For me texting was the devil. I would not enter that arena with LO if you can help it.
My LO would text me about once every couple weeks off work hours random things. A meme she liked, or a follow up to a personal conversation. I had never texted personally with another woman before, and it sent my mind in all kinds of directions about what it meant. Problem was, my LO is fairly poor at conversation, so texting with her was like texting with a teenager. I wanted to be conversational, she would text in short thoughts fragments. This pattern lasted for 6 months until December she upped her frequency and started getting more conversational in texts. In a 2 week period we texted everyday, sometimes lasting for hours. I was sure she was attracted to me and it felt like we were starting an EA and quite honestly it gave me a huge mood boost at the time. I wanted it.
Then she went hot/cold after xmas and I crashed big time. Some circumstances at the office led me to disclose and that is when she claimed it was all just friendship, no feelings of attraction.
Now 2 months later she is still very warm and attentive to me at the office. We have a good chemistry together, but I know not to go down that road of texting with her. I leave our relationship, which is mild friendship at best, at the office only. This works for me and my limerence seems to be fading some. I have not had a depressive low for a few good weeks now.
Hello everybody, in my case is not a coworker but my gym instructor. I am happily married although I have always had crushes but nothing serious, quite fleeting and with limits, without risks.
I came to know that I was experiencing limerence because I am absolutely obsessed with him, there is no moment of the day that I am not thinking about him. It was something unexpected, not that I liked him a little bit but this kind of obsession, in fact the first time I saw him I didn’t like him physically at all and now I find him super attractive.
The question here is that I think that several things are coming together on a chemical level, because my LO is my gym instructor, and it all started because I loved his classes (group activities), how he encouraged and how immediately he learned my name and told me things in class. I enjoy every moment I spend with him in class, expecting my reward in the form of ‘well done’ or ‘keep it up’, but now I’m nervous about class too. Every time I’m getting into more of his classes, and all I want is to know that he’s attracted to me, it’s not that I’m thinking of breaking up my marriage, because I don’t see him as a life partner either, but I want to be with him and I would spend my entire day in his classes sweating next to him, and since he is a gym instructor I can easily find him online without having to follow him, I spend the day looking at his gym photos on the Internet. I know the solution would be to stop going to his classes, but in my case it’s a double effort because I’m not only attracted to him, but I love his classes, and I’m very motivated with physical activity, which I love. It is not the first time that I feel a certain crush with a gym monitor, the previous case was because he showed interest in me but the thing stayed there, nothing happened, and for me were only a couple of fantasies, nothing to do with this obsession that It haunts me all day, it’s causing me stomach and even sleep problems… but at the same time I’m suffering from it I enjoy it, looking forward to Monday so I can see him and be in his class. Is anyone else that have had his LE with a gym monitor or something similar? I am convinced that there is something very chemical that is happening to me because when we exercise we release endorphins….
I feel that if this obsession decreased and became something more voluntary, it would be perfect, as a fun spark in my life, a healthy crush without further complications. Thank you if you read this and forgive my English, I’m Spanish…
And by the way my LO and my SO they Know eah other, they worked together, so yes, my husband is also a gym instructor but never felt attraction for that part of him. Any thoughts?
Save yourself the worst emotional pain you can experience. Change classes. Stop looking at the photos. No Contact.
Thank you for your response. I know that is the solution but honestly right now I am completely unable to not have contact with him, I can’t and I don’t want to. This started a week ago, I hope something will happen and I will get over this obsession.
Maria, I have just read your original post again. Several points leap out at me.
“I came to know that I was experiencing limerence because I am absolutely obsessed with him, there is no moment of the day that I am not thinking about him”
“….with this obsession that It haunts me all day, it’s causing me stomach and even sleep problems…”
“ I spend the day looking at his gym photos on the Internet“
In my opinion, these are “danger” signs. All of us limerents, in one way or another, start off with feelings of excitement and elation. That’s how limerence works. That’s how I started, three years ago. The pleasure was sublime at times but I was kidding myself and it has wrecked my emotional life. I am now picking up the pieces. We all have different stories and complications.
I know that all sounds rather severe. Others may have a gentler view. This site has some brilliant and insightful blogs written by Dr.L. Please spend time reading the ones which you feel are relevant to you.
Lovisa’s advice is sound. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you all the very best.
Hi Maria, bienvenidos! Forgive my Spanish, I lived in the Caribbean for a few years and didn’t learn as much Spanish as I should have. To quote what my 4-year-old daughter told her new class when we moved back to our home country, “El Espaniol de mi Mama es muy malo.” I will communicate with English since your English is so much better than my Spanish. You have come to the right place. You have limerence and it seems to be a big problem for you.
Frederico’s advice is spot on. If you can go no contact and stop looking at him online, you will probably recover sooner.
Here are some other things to think about.
When you think about your LO, you are training yourself to think about LO. The more you do it, the stronger the habit becomes. It’s important that you replace daydreams with something else. Can you visit this website instead of thinking about your LO?
I’m sorry, but if you can talk yourself into avoiding his classes, that is also important for you. It sounds like contact with LO is more than you can handle. Please consider taking classes from someone else.
Recovery will be challenging, but you are not alone. You will find a community of people on this website who want to support you and help you get through your struggles. You can offer support to us, too. We all need it.
And yes, we have had other people in our community who experience limerence for personal trainers. My current LO is somewhat of a running coach for me. I agree that pheromones could play a role because when LO3 and I hiked together, he smelled sooooooo good, but I didn’t recognize a specific scent, I just knew that his smell drew me closer to him.
Best of luck!
Thank you very much Lovisa for your reply and advice.
Right now I don’t have the strength to stop attending his classes, I feel it makes me happy. I am going to start trying what you tell me to avoid thinking about him 24/7 and focus on other aspects of my life that I was enjoying before.
I also feel that if I somehow knew he was attracted to me my limerence would decrease because I just want to like him nothing more, but that also leads me to look for encounters and situations to force that feeling. The other day I asked him for advice to strengthen my back and to build for me a routine with exercises, we were talking for a while, I remember starting awkwardly and feeling more comfortable as the conversation progressed which also leads me to think that maybe the more I deal with him the less will be the obsession…
Thank you!
Maria, it will be much worse if you discover that he has “feelings” for you, too. I understand that desire for reciprocation, it is a symptom of limerence. You are better off if you don’t know how he feels about you.
When you asked for advice, you were being alluring to him. Here is how that works. Men love to solve problems. Men love to be accepted. Men love to be appreciated. If you let him solve your problem and you express gratitude, you will meet some of his needs. He will associate you with positive feelings. I think this is one of the reasons Adam is so addicted to his LO. He felt significant in her life, which he was. Her kindness and gratitude felt amazing to him. It would be a good thing if Adam wasn’t stuck. I recommend that you read the comments on the New Year’s blog when you get a chance.
Please don’t dig yourself deeper into this hole. Just enjoy the contact you have. Be grateful for it. Don’t think about it when you aren’t with him. That is where the intrusive thoughts come from.
Please don’t seek reciprocation from him. It is a terrible idea! Also, don’t disclose your feelings to LO.
I understand why you aren’t ready to let go. It makes sense because you are getting some benefits from LO. I think you need to list your boundaries if you plan to continue seeing LO.
What standards do you and SO have for male/female friendships? Are you allowed to have male friends?
Do you know what an emotional affair is? Is that something your marriage can survive?
Are you okay with physical contact? How much?
Do you want to stay married to your SO? Are you willing to hurt all the people that would be devastated if you cheated on your husband?
You need to think about these things in advance because it’s too late to make decisions in a moment of passion. Your cognitive reasoning will be compromised.
Good luck! I’m cheering for you, Maria!
Hi Maria,
Thanks for sharing your story and reaching out here. I want to add my voice to the people advising you not to disclose your feelings to your LO. I did, and I learned that my LO had the same feelings for me. It felt wonderful for all of about 30 seconds, and then led to the crushing realization that nothing could ever come from these feelings because I’m committed to my SO, just like you seem to be. Ten minutes after mutual disclosure, I was heartbroken and crying. That was in December, and the last few months have been a roller coaster of emotions with some definite highs but many more bad feelings than good – constant anxiety when she hasn’t texted me back for a couple hours, deep depression during times when we’ve decided to go NC (including now), and lots of challenges to my morality and commitment to my marriage and my image of what kind of person I actually am.
If you were single, then absolutely tell him how you feel and maybe something great would come from it. But if you’re in a committed relationship, only 2 things can come from disclosing your feelings to him – either he rejects you and you feel terrible about the rejection, or he reciprocates and you end up in super dangerous and painful territory where the BEST case scenario is that only you and him get your hearts broken.
It’s also not fair to an LO to encourage them to develop feelings for someone who is ultimately unavailable. I feel absolutely terrible for the pain and heartache I’ve caused for my LO – I’ve basically done a lot of stuff to try and keep her feelings for me as strong as mine are for her, even though there’s no chance of us ever actually being together, and I know I’ve caused her a ton of heartbreak as well as myself, and since I really do care about her so much, I just hate the fact that I’ve caused all this hurt for her. Right now, your distressing feelings are yours alone – if you make your feelings clear to your LO, you might be inviting him into the distress zone as well, and if things go badly, your SO gets to share in the distress as well.
In my opinion, personal trainers or gym instructors are an especial danger because we are allowed to stare at them endlessly. Their job is also to look fit and good. Then, when everyone breaks a sweat – pheromones galore, and we get a natural high from exercise that we associate with them.
Thank you all for your replies and support.
Lovisa regarding the questions you asked me, there is no problem in my marriage in having friends of another sex, and I talk to him openly about my LO as he knows him and gives classes that he also gives, in another gym of the same chain, but of course my SO doesn’t know anything about my limerence.
I don’t want to break up my marriage, in fact we are looking to have a child, I don’t see myself in a couple with my LO at all, in fact I think I’m only attracted to him in the gym environment, I haven’t seen him outside the gym yet but I have the feeling that I’m not going to see him in the same way. I think I like the activity I do with him so much that I have associated this high with him.
Yesterday I attended one of his classes and a new feeling appeared towards him which was anger. Last thursday I had asked him for an exercise routine to strengthen my back which so far he doesn’t seem to have done which has annoyed me a bit, and yesterday I could see him as someone a bit more cocky…
What I liked the most about him is that he does everything with great grace, with a lot of style. I still feel that if I somehow knew that he was attracted to me even a little bit my obsession would decrease, I don’t know if he has a partner, I know he had one some time ago (since I’ve been ‘studying’ him a lot on social media).
What bothers me most about this situation is that I can’t get rid of these nerves in my stomach. I’m already looking for it much less on the Internet, paying more attention to what I don’t like and telling myself how absurd this situation is, but at the same time I’m afraid that everything will turn around and I’ll end up disliking him because I like the feeling of sparkle. I don’t want this desire to go to his classes and these previous nerves to disappear and being attracted to him, in fact, that’s how I started and it was great because that’s all it was, not intrusive thoughts all day or these nerves in my stomach, going back to that previous state is what I’m trying to do.
Today I had signed up for two of his classes but I had a dental appointment, for a moment I almost changed my appointment to continue attending his classes but I didn’t, it’s a good sign isn’t it?
Thank you very much for taking the time to answer me and to Dr L for these great resources that are helping me a lot!
“… I still feel that if I somehow knew that he was attracted to me even a little bit my obsession would decrease…”
Maria, this is a common symptom of limerence. You desire reciprocation from your LO. It doesn’t get better if you discover that your LO has feelings for you, it gets worse. I caution you against disclosing to your LO. Please read the articles about disclosure.
“ I don’t want this desire to go to his classes and these previous nerves to disappear and being attracted to him, in fact, that’s how I started and it was great because that’s all it was, not intrusive thoughts all day or these nerves in my stomach, going back to that previous state is what I’m trying to do.”
I see that you are trying to get back to a pleasant phase of limerence. It’s like a drug addict chasing the euphoria of the first high. I don’t think it’s possible. I understand why you want to do it, that desire makes sense, but I don’t think it will work.
Yes, it is a good sign that you chose to visit the dentist instead of seeing your LO. That was a step in the right direction.
Maria, Dr. L encourages us limerents to go no contact and live with purpose. I want you to keep those ideas in your thoughts. It sounds like you want to keep your marriage strong. I hope you remember your commitment to marriage as you navigate your LE. This is so hard, but you are strong. You can get through this.
Maria, I echo Lovisa.
When my LE became distressing to me I kept thinking that I just needed to know my LO felt the same then it would all be OK. In fact, even now, I still get caught up in feeling that way. It’s a limerent lie in your mind. Read enough stories here and you will see that mutual limerence seems almost more distressing than one sided limerence when barriers are present.
I would do what you can to lessen your contact with this trainer and start to live with purpose towards your SO whom you seem to value and cherish a life with.
Maria, I listened to a podcast today about a woman who had an affair with her trainer. I think it could be a good wake up call for you. I hope the link works. I am not tech-savvy.
https://soundcloud.com/affairhealing/recoveryroom213?utm_source=clipboard&utm_campaign=wtshare&utm_medium=widget&utm_content=https%253A%252F%252Fsoundcloud.com%252Faffairhealing%252Frecoveryroom213
Thanks Lovisa, I listened the podcast but I feel it is not the same situation but I found it very useful.
I am here again to tell you a little bit about how my LE is evolving and just in case my experience could help anybody.
I’m still quite obsessed, but a little more focused on myself, my work, my personal life…. My relationship with LO has been growing, but it all comes down to sports issues. The thing is, sometimes I feel like I get attention from him and sometimes I don’t, like he didn’t remember that I told him I had scoliosis, but then in another class he wasn’t teaching, he came in I don’t know what for and when he came out, we were at the time doing a plank, he tickled my leg.
Yesterday he told me that I had been doing great for days and that I should be proud. But there is no indication that he might be physically attracted to me, not that I gave him any clues that I am attracted to him either. Many of you advised me about not disclose my “feelings” towards him, I see very difficult that this could happen and I don’t even think about it, our relationship is merely sporty and scarce, we do not train alone, the activities are in group, there may be some comments at the exit of the class, I have asked him several times but about the activity or my health. It is strange at this point when we have talked more that I have not told him who my husband is, since they know each other, I feel that I should tell him as soon as possible and at the same time I do not want to close that door completely, I do not want him to treat me differently…although there is no special treatment actually, I think that maybe he can be more aware of me than of other participants or I feel that I get along with him more than others but that is also because I go to many of his classes and I usually stand in the front row right next to him. I really enjoy his classes and with the training, I have also managed to get into another class with a different instructor and I have also enjoyed it. Already just going to the gym even if I don’t go to my LO’s classes I like it because I feel like I can meet him, on friday I went to the gym, not to his class, but I happened to meet him there, and he said “look who we have over here”, and then I was still able to ask him some questions because I had doubts with an exercise (he was the one who did the exercise routine for me). I feel that I have a little more control over my thoughts, intrusive thoughts have been reduced and my stomach is getting better, but I still get nervous every time I go to see him, in fact the other day when I asked him to create my exercise routine for strenghing my back, I told him that I had many back problems not only because of my scoliosis but also because I was very nervous and he told me that I did not seem so, that I transmitted a calm aura but then when talking you could see that I was nervous, what he doesn’t know (I guess and hope) is that what makes me nervous is talking to him.
Yesterday we also met when I was leaving the club and he told me that I always seemed to be in a hurry, I see that he makes some appreciations about me which leads me to think that he is paying attention to me, I don’t know. I keep feeling that I only like him in that gym environment, I admire him a lot and sometimes I am able to see his unattractive part (which if I be honest this part is pretty big since he is not an objective attractive person). Well I don’t know if I’m fooling myself but I think I’m staying in control. Sometimes I find myself thinking about our talks and I interrupt the thoughts, I do not know if already by tiredness or what… but I think it could be a good sign.
If it helps anyone to have a lot of work and a busy social life it helps to keep your thoughts away from your LO, although I guess that’s pretty bad advice. I’m sorry I can’t be more helpful, as you can see I have very little experience in this LE thing and I feel also like a 15 years old girl…
“I think this is one of the reasons Adam is so addicted to his LO. He felt significant in her life, which he was. Her kindness and gratitude felt amazing to him.”
I wish I could feel that again. Ladies Miss Lovisa is right. If you have a man please tell him you appreciate him. Thank him. We do it all for you. And as this LE is proving to me personally if its not at home it will be elsewhere. Im not condoning my behavior. Theres no excuse. But there are reasons.
And yes it goes both ways. We need to show appreciate for what you do for us as well. Its not a one way street.
Every man has a hook. Mine; come home from work one day and see momma in a dress and high heels cooking dinner for the night. Just ask him what gets his goat. I think a lot of times things like limerence come around because of the absence in something in our existing relationships.
Also shorts, tank top and a sun hat are a good combo too. 🙂
Thanks for the tips, Adam! I am not a high-heal girl, but I think I can do the dinner and dress thing for my SO… you have me thinking.
By the way, us ladies need to feel like the work is done and we can relax. Women are always aware of unfinished chores. It’s so nice when they’re finished because then we can do fun stuff.
Today was supposed to be day 5 of NC but I didn’t make it – I had to see LO briefly to sign some papers and we ended up chatting at her desk for half an hour. In a public area at least (although I sort of wondered if any of her office mates noticed our chemistry or how much we obviously know about each others’ lives). But at least when she had messaged me about signing the papers, I successfully fought the urge to invite her to bring them to my private office like she used to. I definitely thought about it for a minute before thinking better and telling her I’d come to her in her shared office. I still don’t trust either of us to be alone together in my office.
And seeing her and talking with her felt really good of course, but then the second I walked out I felt the crushing emptiness of wanting her more and not knowing when I’ll get to see her and talk with her again. And a few minutes later I broke down and texted her “nice to see you today 😊”, hoping for a “nice to see you too” or better yet “I missed you”, but got nothing… nothing… finally half hour later she replied with a 😊 emoji with no words – well, that’s better than nothing… does she want to see me more? Does she want me to keep my distance? Does she still care about me? Does she love me as much as I love her? Damn these intrusive thoughts!
It’s never enough. Nothing I’m willing to actually do will ever be enough. I know this. As much as I enjoy every moment of contact with her, it always leaves me wanting so much more, with loads of anxiety and depression to follow. Why do I keep doing this?
Back to no contact tomorrow. Goal tomorrow will be to just make it through the day without contacting her. Next day, same goal. Next day, same goal…
But then I think to myself, she’s leaving in like a month and I’ll probably never get to see her again. Why not spend as much time with her as possible now, stockpile as many memories as I can? Oh yeah, because it’s morally wrong and it’s wrecking me emotionally.
Tomorrow, back to NC… and a much needed appointment with my therapist as well… and hopefully lots of quality time with SO…
I’m sorry you are struggling, Lost in Space. It must be so hard. I’m taking the tough love approach here because I think you need it. You are an endurance athlete, I know you can do hard things. You can endure this LE suffering without blowing up your life.
“ Does she want me to keep my distance?”
Yes, when she is thinking clearly, she wants to have distance from you.
“ Does she love me as much as I love her?”
Love is unselfish. What you two are doing is selfish. It feels like love, but I don’t think it is. I’m so sorry, I know that’s painful to hear.
“ Why do I keep doing this?”
Addiction. The good news is that you already have the skills to overcome addiction.
“ Why not spend as much time with her as possible now, stockpile as many memories as I can? Oh yeah, because it’s morally wrong and it’s wrecking me emotionally.”
One more reason is that you two are too tempted and might give in. I don’t want to see this escalate. When you are thinking clearly, you don’t want it to escalate either.
It’s not helpful to answer the other questions so I won’t. I can only imagine how hard this is for you, Lost in Space.
Here’s a song for you
“Never Enough” from the Greatest Showman.
https://youtu.be/6jZVsr7q-tE
I love your plan: no contact, visit the therapist and dive into your connection with SO. Yes! You got this!
“Damn these intrusive thoughts!”
Not only being physically ill the last six days the intrusive thoughts have been killing my ability to get any sleep. And just in general. And it’s taking it toll on my ability to do my job and function in general on so little sleep.
For the first time in a long time I had a real vivid dream of LO Monday morning before I woke up. We were all back at work together. I was working in her location and it felt really nice. We were talking and laughing together. It felt so real. Like this was actually happening. And then it was the end of the day and we were all getting ready to say our goodbyes until the next day and then LO turns to me to tell that she is moving away and her and her gentleman friend are going to start a life together somewhere else. And turned and left with him.
I woke up having a panic attack. I really wanted to call LO just to hear her voice. But even though I was home sick I found an excuse to call another co-worker asking her a work related question and nonchalantly asking if she had heard from LO, who was still where she is at and not moving. Shew!
Thank you Lovisa. I definitely need tough love rather than enabling right now. I appreciate you.
A couple of things you said stood out to me:
“Yes, when she is thinking clearly, she wants to have distance from you.”
I believe this is true. And when I’m thinking clearly, I want to distance myself from her (I’m just not thinking clearly very much of the time). It’s important for me to keep reminding myself that her desire to distance herself from me is NOT the same as her rejecting me. She is rejecting the situation, not rejecting me as a person. She’s made it explicitly clear that she has strong feelings for me (both emotional and sexual) but that she does not want to risk compromising her morals further, does not want to be complicit in hurting my wife and kids, and does not want to be stuck perpetually loving someone who is ultimately unavailable to give her what she needs and deserves. And I respect her for all of that! And reminding myself of that does make it somewhat less painful.
“Love is unselfish. What you two are doing is selfish. It feels like love, but I don’t think it is. I’m so sorry, I know that’s painful to hear.”
That’s something I’ve been struggling with a lot. I know for sure that my actions and feelings are selfish when it comes to my SO – this is all totally unfair to her. I struggle to decide for myself if I’m behaving selfishly toward LO or not. I think it’s a mix. I care about her immensely and want to make her happy so badly. When she says stuff like “when you smile at me, it’s like all the bad stuff in my life is lifted off me and it just makes me feel really good” or “I get teary eyed from how good you are to me”, that kind of stuff, especially knowing what a hard life she’s had and how little love she’s been given by the other people in her life, really really makes me want to keep trying to do stuff to make her happy and feel loved. I want to show her that she’s loved and convince her that she’s lovable and valuable (two things that she struggles to believe about herself). From this perspective, it doesn’t feel selfish. But I also know that I’m getting a lot out of all these interactions with her. Making her happy, and having her express that to me, is my drug. So maybe at the end of the day, even though my behavior toward her might seem selfless, it actually is selfish at the heart of it
I do think that in an alternate universe where we were both available to each other, we really could have a genuinely loving relationship that was not selfish at the core. But of course, we live in the real world, so everything has to be interpreted in the context of the fact that I’m married, so I just can’t legitimately be her source of romantic love and emotional support, nor can she by mine.
Thanks as always for pushing me to think harder about my motivations and feelings
Lost in Space, you are very welcome. I love that you are so open. I learn new things from you. You did a great job of processing your thoughts. Your thinking brain has this situation figured out and recognizes the best path forward. Unfortunately, your limerent brain is strong and often takes over. I think you have a tough road ahead. I am glad that you don’t have to make this journey alone. You have your therapist and the LwL community to encourage you forward.
I’ve spent a week enforcing LC with my LO co-worker. Discussed this with my counselor, and she offered this piece of advice for others who may be trying the same thing. Telling your LO that you don’t want to talk about yourself is intimate – you’re admitting the relationship is inappropriate and suggesting you have feelings for them. (My counselor is very concerned about potential fallout from the LO – is she going to complain to human resources when I withdraw? Could this damage my reputation and job trajectory?)
Worked on the LC and new boundaries. It worked OK, mostly because LO was caught into another crisis, which is keeping her very busy. She tried to engage on something personal – snarky comment about life in general in a Teams IM, but I didn’t reply. Gotta admit, when I saw that comment, the dopamine hit happened. “She’s thinking of me!” But I held firm and didn’t reply. Still bothersome that I could feel that emotional surge happening, and was thinking “Maybe I need to drop these boundaries and then everything will feel good again!” I know, I know, it’s like an alcoholic thinking one more beer won’t hurt.
As I struggle with LC, I’m busy looking at LO’s flaws, and one that’s come out is that her ambitions exceed her ability. I see two versions of her – the introverted, snarky one who’s decent and kind, and the ambitious one. The second one disturbs me; she wants to make it to the highest levels so “she can make all the decisions.” Personally, I find the overly ambitious troubling. They typically have no trouble stepping on others to ascend to their “rightful” place in the hierarchy. I’ve been one of those trod upon, and seen plenty of others get stepped on by they overly-ambitious. I’m not saying she’s one of these people, and I think there’s a genuine human being in there, but I worry that her ambitions will override that. She’s only 36, and I hope she can grow out of this, but ultimately that’s not my problem.
I say her ambitions exceed her ability because she’s just not very good dealing with people that she doesn’t like. She frequently cuts them off, even though they’re at her level. If they’re not useful to her at the moment, she’s not very interested in them as human beings at all. One of the things that’s been bugging me the whole time is what is she getting out of this? I’ve asked her this point blank, and I get that she respects and admires me, and feels like she can really talk honestly to me. I’m beginning to wonder if I’m just a convenient ego boost for her. When she feels down, just give me an IM or a call and I’ll lift her spirits. She’s married and has other friends. Why am I the ego booster? Shouldn’t they be doing that for her?
I’ve been discussing the LO with my wife. I haven’t disclosed the attraction. Wife already knew that LO was a close friend, and at one point I described her as a “work wife.” Been discussing LO’s negative aspects instead now, and how they’re driving me crazy. Fridays, I work from home, and had a call with the LO. Home office is down the hall from our bedroom. After call with LO, I went to chat with wife because I was frustrated and annoyed. Wife said “You were talking with [LO], weren’t you.” “Yes, how did you know?” “You had that exasperated, I just want to get this over with, tone in your voice”. I didn’t think I was that bad, but if my wife could hear the caution in my voice down the hall, I must have been blatant. On the other hand, the wife knows me and my moods better than anyone else.
Also spoke extensively to my supervisor about the LO. Not the attraction, of course, but that I’m concerned that she’s a little, well, sociopathic. Boss is the type to let people learn things on their own, rather than tell them, so he said he noticed the same behavior. If I ask him to take me off the project with LO only a couple months after joining, especially for personal reasons, it’ll blow back on all three of us (LO, me, and boss). To head off any upset LO repercussions, I explained to boss that I was close friends with LO, but I’m trying to put some distance between us, keeping things professional and not being personal with her. The boss’ advice was to “stay on the periphery” with the LO, others have noticed some of this behavior.
So the LO’s luster is fading, yet I can’t find it in me to hate her, and I still want to be her friend. Crazy, right? I know our host is saying it’s impossible, and his wisdom is slowly sinking in, but I still find myself missing the friendship. Oddly enough, this whole experience has brought me closer to my wife, so I’m opening up more to her, especially about my inner feelings. There was no EA; I never told the LO anything I hadn’t told the wife, but I’m being freer telling my wife what I’m thinking, which has been good for our marriage.
I’m really struggling with what I believe is limerence, and I’d like some advice and perspective from fellow limerants who may have experienced something similar.
My LO and I work together. She’s younger than me, and we’re both in relationships. I have a young child, whom I adore, but my relationship is, if I’m honest, unhappy. My LO has been with their partner forever, and, truthfully, I know almost nothing about how happy they are.
We’ve worked together for over two years, and always been friendly, but never complicated. About six months ago, however, we started working in an office together for the first time since lockdown. This meant more time together and more social events. We got on really well. This alone would have been manageable: we enjoyed each other’s company, but I never got the sense she was romantically interested.
However, around the same time I started using a specific social media platform for work. It’s a platform she uses a lot, and, before long, she started messaging me out of work. At first it was sporadic, but when I engaged it became more frequent. It began with shared videos, then gradually became more conversational.
Fast forward a few months, and now we speak out of work most days, sometimes back and forth all evening. The conversation is never explicitly flirtatious or personal. Instead, it’s lots of in-jokes, shared memes, and common interests. The conversation continues even when she’s on holiday with her other half. We tend to spend all evening together when we have work social events, but there has never been anything physical apart from flirting and proximity. There are other signs I’d consider explicitly romantic if the circumstances were different: pet names, gifts, teasing, mirroring of language and interests.
I cannot stop thinking about her. She’s a constant presence in my life, and the nature of our communication means that she’s always there and there’s always something to share. Honestly, it’s tearing me apart. I’m unhappy in my home life and unable to see a way out that isn’t horrible and damaging, and I can no longer tell how much of that is because of the constant spectre of this relationship. I see her every day and usually speak to her on the days I don’t. Everything reminds me of her. She’s often the last thing I think about when I go to sleep and the first thing I think of when I wake up. I have experienced what I presume is limerence before, but it’s always led to relationships. This is the first time I’ve felt it where I’m scared that it’ll go nowhere, and I’ve perhaps felt this kind of connection four or five times in my life.
I love being a father and I don’t want to ruin my child’s life on a whim. But I can’t cope any more. I want to go no contact, but she’s also a friend I speak to every day; without context or a conversation, it seems like a cruel, erratic thing to do to her. And I’m scared to disclose because we work together and I’m a senior member of staff. I’m speaking to a therapist about all this, but right now progress feels impossible. Any advice would be amazing.
Pix – i feel your hurt. My story is somewhere on this thread – but basically my LO is my subordinate at work and also has been driving me crazy.
Here are my thoughts:
1) the highs with LO are so high, but everytime the low thereafter is just as low – i have come to realise that the lows are too painful for me to handle
2) i have been going for councelling to specifically work on my marriage and to lesson the depressive no hope feelings – its has helped
3) i try to give LO as little chance as possible of letting me down. This means restraining from unnecessary questions or expecting anything from her. Many times i will not msg her as I dont want the disappointment of a slow or poor response.
4) i am trying to constrain my time with her as much as possible – only essential work time. I have not yet managed to take personal topics of our discussions – but they have reduced recently.
5) you need to remember that she may not (and probably does not) feel the same way you do (and may experience no pain or lows). Realise that you may be the only one suffering. If she was not interested in you at all what would you do?
6) take it one day at a time – do anything that can take your mind off her and consider slowing down or ending the after work chats.
Good luck – like all of us it looks like you are going to need it
Thanks Vee, this is useful to read. Truthfully, the temptation to get a definitive answer about the nature of her interest is almost overwhelming. I feel like if I knew it was a platonic thing I’d find it easier to dial back.
I’ve spoken to loads of my female friends for a read on how unusual they think her behaviour is. Most of them think it is. But I’m aware that might be my brain telling me what I want to hear!
Vee…how are things going these days?
Speedwagon – thanks for asking. I has been another roller coaster few weeks.
Reading your post on the other thread is so similar to what happened to me. LO and I had some alone time on a work trip and while it was great to connect with her (there was nothing romantic and not even much personal discussion) the lows after were so bad.
I also agree that trying to avoid one on one time outside of the normal work setting is helpful.
I keep seeing how she is fine to spend time with me but clearly has no interest which i tell myself everyday.
I think i have done well not to disclose things like how much i think about her or how attracted or addicted i am to her. Each time i learn something new about her its hard not to see something that reminds me of her when i am not around her. I also had an opportunity when she was talking to me about her ex to tell her how wonderful she is and i resisted which i thought was progress. I think she has no clue about how i truly feel about her which i imagine is a positive in how my actions have been perceived. But inside i do keep having to grapple with this voice that is desperately wanting to tell her. I am restraining it for now – thanks mainly to this blog and everyones advice.
The therepy sessions have been helpful – i dont have so many complete breakdowns anymore. I have been focussing on improving my relationship with SO but i have been finding it difficult to enjoy any moments when LO is not there or present. I keep thinking about what LO would do or say and i know that is not great.
I have a few weeks coming up of low to no contact which i think is going to be very hard for me after how much time i have had with LO for work purposes over the last few weeks.
I am struggling now with figuring out where helping LO from a work perspective is normal or where i am helping beyond normal because of how i feel about her. Last week i cancelled a meeting with her because i wanted to reduce contact but then i was worried that she needed that time to get guidance on her work. Its such a painful situation and i feel so conflicted all the time trying to be purposeful and authentic but at the same time not crossing a line.
I hope i am doing the right thing.
Thanks for the update, Vee. I understand the difficult balance between needing to legitimately help LO out with work, and then feeling like you are manufacturing help just to spend time with her. I did the same all the time. What needed to be maybe 10 minutes of collaboration time I would extend into 30 minutes to sometimes an hour. Or I would manufacturer collaboration that in reality did not really need to happen just to be with her.
Here is where I found my balance. I knew that everyday I wanted some interaction time with LO so I did not shy away from it. I embraced it and let myself have just enough that my mood stayed somewhat level. But I also knew not to go overboard and it was through months of trial and error, that I knew where the line might be. So I let myself go to the line but then tried to stay disciplined not to cross it. So about 20-30 minutes of face to face, one on one, collaboration with LO each day helps keep my mood regulated but does not send me into depressive lows later. It is also not beyond reason to other workers to spend that time with LO helping her so it does not seem odd in the office.
My advice for you would be to find your balance with LO. What is the amount of time you like to spend to get a little dose of connection with her and what is too much time that might send you into depressive lows later.
I found that over time the little bit of in office collaboration felt routine, normalized, and did not cause me distress later. But, any alone time with her that goes beyond that, especially outings that have us in a car together for periods of time, do cause me distress later. So I look to eliminate the trigger of distress and eliminate those longer alone times.
Everyday feels like balancing in the middle of a see-saw. I am constantly shifting to manage myself with LO. Not enough connection…too much connection…it takes effort. But the highs aren’t high and the lows aren’t low and I can function well and that is the best I can do for myself right now. Hopefully one day LE just fades completely or she moves on and I go full NC.
For now management of LE distress is name of the game.
Best of luck…I’m pulling for you.
Speedwagon (and everyone else following this…) – today was really hard.
I have been discussing my marriage issues with SO – she feels like i am no longer there for her and that things have changed. She feels i am not as happy around her. It is true – and i admitted that is the case. I dont feel happy and things have become so difficult. Nothing gives me the emotional satisfaction i am looking for. Ending everything with SO has been crossing my mind for the first time (the implications would be so huge and kids are involved). What a mess.
LO and I have just been dealing with normal work issues and she still has no clue on how i feel. Speedwagon – i have been considering partial disclosure. I know logically what terrible idea this is. I have read the do not disclose article so many times but i am running out of ideas on how to end this madness. Maybe hearing first hand from her how she has no interest will kill the limerence.
I have also been thinking of confiding about my SO issues to LO (i know – another horrible idea). But the craving of bonding with her is so strong.
I believe (hope) i will resist the temptation to disclose and maybe even resist confiding in LO. Would be great to hear thoughts from anyone on if this is going to help.
It has been so hard dealing with this.
Vee – thanks for posting here before doing anything you can’t take back. I empathize with your feelings 100%. I understand very much how you’re feeling, and I know how strong the impulses are. That said… don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it. Don’t disclose your feelings to LO. Don’t share your marital problems with LO. Please don’t do it
Right now you’re still in control of your own life. Once you disclose, you’re handing over control of everything in your life to another person that you really don’t know all that well. Yes, she might end up just telling you that you’re sweet but she doesn’t have any romantic feelings for you, and that may or may not help your limerence and it may or may not help you return your focus to SO. Or… LO might file a sexual harassment complaint against you. Or she might tell everyone in the workplace. Or she might feel so uncomfortable that she has to quit her job. Or she might tell your wife.
Or… she might return your feelings and you might actually end up in an affair with her. And I’d be willing to bet (because I felt the same way a few months ago) that the prospect of an affair with LO sounds pretty great at some level. In some part of your brain, it sounds like the best thing ever. And it might be kinda great for the first little while, except that all the highs and lows you’re already experiencing will be magnified 100x. But all the research shows that in the long run, affairs almost never end well or lead to lasting happiness. I think something like 3-5% of people actually end up in a happy long term relationship with their affair partner. Diving into something like that is just not a path to happiness or wellness
I realize now how incredibly lucky I got when I disclosed to LO. I realize now how little I actually knew her then, and how I was interacting with an idealized version of her. I felt 100% sure that it was safe to disclose to her, that I could essentially trust her with my life. As I got to know her better later, I discovered that she is much more broken and emotionally unstable than I ever imagined. Fortunately she does have a really strong moral compass and she didn’t do anything to harm me, either by lashing out and wrecking my career or marriage out of anger, or by sabotaging my marriage to try to have me for herself. She certainly could have done either of those things – I willingly gave her that power over me. At the time I disclosed I truly had no idea where it would lead, and in that frame of mind I truly felt like I didn’t care, and that’s actually a really scary thought
Please… work on your relationship with SO and with yourself. Find a good couples counselor if you haven’t already. Find a good individual therapist for yourself if you haven’t already. Try to really figure out why you’re so unhappy in your marriage and in your life. That’s the process I’m engaged in right now. Maybe you’ll end up resuscitating your marriage, or maybe you and SO will eventually decide it’s best for both of you to end it. But please don’t let your limerent brain trick you into thinking that escalating things with LO will make anything better, because there’s so little chance that it actually will, and so great of a chance that things could go terribly wrong and a lot of people could be badly hurt
Oh Vee, my heart goes out to you. I just got off the phone with my dad before reading your post. He is pleased that I can understand the reason he left my mom 40 years ago. My mom is difficult. I have been taking care of her since October, she lived with us until a few days ago when she went to live with my brother. My dad likes that I can see how hard it was for him to live with her. True, I can see it, but that always leads me to the next thought, “Why did you leave your children with her when you thought she was crazy?” I hope that if your wife is a reasonably decent person that you will try to improve things at home. Your presence is invaluable to your children. I can’t emphasize enough how important you are to your kids. I don’t know where you are in your marriage, but things get better after the first kid leaves home.
As far as disclosure, I understand the temptation to disclose. You are getting ready to dip your feet into EA territory when you disclose the struggles you are experiencing with your wife. Your LO is naive to the realities of married life and she will side with you. She will not be helpful. Please talk to someone else. It is a very bad idea to speak poorly of your wife to an attractive female.
And please don’t disclose your feelings to LO. Nothing good will come of it. Speedwagon’s situation is probably the ideal outcome of disclosing to a work-LO, but he is still suffering. Disclosure always complicates the relationship and LOs are unpredictable after disclosure.
If you want to talk about the struggles you’re having at home, I am all ears. Just don’t talk about it with LO.
Oh and I am pretty sure that my dad had limerence for my first step-mom. She confessed to my mom that she seduced my dad on purpose because she thought he would be a good husband and father. She was a very beautiful co-worker who was 10 years younger than my dad. That marriage didn’t last and my dad regrets marrying her. He wishes he had focused on single parenting after he divorced my mom. His current wife (4th marriage) is amazing! Our family loves her so much. But my dad made a lot of mistakes along the way to get to where he is.
Good luck!
Vee
I read your post earlier and wanted to ponder on it before I made a reply. Then when I came back and LiS had already replied. I agree with him about disclosing limerence to LO.
My unsolicited advice if you choose to continue to read ….
Think about instead of disclosure to LO, disclose to your wife. I’ll give you a shortened version of my story on disclosure. Long before found limerence through this site in January, members of my family from my behavior thought that anything from an EA to PA was happening. Even if the EA was one sided and not mutual. So when I discovered limerence I decided I wanted to tell her about it in hopes that an understanding of my behavior would help us salvage our marriage.
I printed some of Dr L’s posts here he wrote to help the spouse of a limerent. And some of the basics of the neurology and psychology of limerence. Let’s just say the first few conversations didn’t go well. If they became heated I would usually pull back. We probably had 3-4 conversations about it usually brought up by negative things; like me talking about LO in my sleep or a song I would be singing around the house because she knew it reminded me of LO. “I hate that song! I hate you singing that song!” Behavior quite understandable for her position in this relationship. And I didn’t type that trying to say she was yelling at me, just firmly told me how that hurt her.
About a week or so, she texts me this very weird question with no context. I answered as honestly as I could with knowing why she was asking me this question. Then she told me that she had finally read the articles of Dr L’s I printed and wanted to have a talk about it. Which I was of course okay with.
Since then we have had 3-4 more very calm, honest and productive conversations about my limerence and LO. My wife has assured me that she is willing to work through this and preserve our marriage if I will be honest and help her understand how this woman got in my head and still is. All of which, these conversations, she has initiated herself. So things are slowly improving between us.
But it was a long road. If you’d asked my opinion on disclosure to a spouse back in January you would have got a very different take on it than you are right now. I can’t say how yours might pan out if you do choose to tell your wife. But I can tell you now, I am so glad I did and I feel like it will come out for the better for us than if I had kept it to myself.
Hoping for the best for you Vee.
“and I see love hungry people
trying their best to survive
when right there in their hands is a dying romance
and they’re not even trying keep it alive”
What’s Forever For — Micheal Murphy
https://youtu.be/suctMm61b50
Yikes Pix, that sounds like an emotional affair to me. I’m so sorry, but that is a lot of contact for a friendship. Does your SO know? Does her SO know? It sounds like she is getting some emotional intimacy needs met through you.
If I had a magic wand, you would become boring to LO and you would work on your marriage. Of course I am assuming that your SO isn’t abusing you or your kids. Marriages are worth saving. There is a great resource on YouTube called Marriage Helper. They have a lot of great videos and some of them even address limerence.
Based on what you shared, I have a suspicion that I know what your LO is thinking. Trust me when I say that you are better off not knowing what she thinks of you. Let go of that desire. That knowledge will not help.
If you choose to continue with things the way they are, you might want to consider a few things.
1. What boundaries are you unwilling to cross?
2. Are you willing to be a friend to her in the same way that your relationship functions right now?
3. How committed are you to marriage?
I am very concerned about your relationship with LO because the frequency of contact is so high. Please keep posting on this site. I think you need to process what is happening. I am glad you are seeing a therapist. That is good news!
We have a commentator who would be helpful to you, I think. Hopefully, @Lost in Space sees your story and comments. I think his situation is comparable, but he is further in the process. You may want to read his past comments.
Good luck!
Hi Pix, welcome to the club. I took am limerent for my coworker (actually my employee!) who is 13 years younger than me and married also. But, I am on the backside of my worst days. Part of this is due to time, LwL, and I had a disclosure with my LO that took away uncertainty. I still struggle with the passion and desire and intrusive thoughts for her but they no longer are much distress to me.
Unlike you, I have a fantastic SO that I love and have leaned into during this time. Unlike you, my LO is pretty aloof, sometimes acts like she is attracted to me and other times does not. She never really pursued me at all but also played the game with me when I pursued her. It all hit a crescendo around Christmas time with a lot of texting off hours and led to my disclosure shortly after. Turns out she only felt friendship.
DR L has some blogs of gradually pulling back…don’t go LC all at once. Just pull back little bits at a time. Also, it sounds like you need to deal with your marriage independent of LO. There are some blogs here about that too.
And I agree, it sounds like you are in a full blown EA. That is not going to be easy to unravel. Baby steps.
The main thing I have learned is to make my interactions with LO routine and predictable and don’t set my self up for a let down. We don’t text anymore either. I don’t put myself in a position to expect anything from LO. This has served me well to keep from having the low lows. But I also don’t get much of a high anymore either. Just stable emotions that I can deal with day in day out.
My story is littered in real time all over the rescue fantasy blog and New years Purpose blog.
Thanks for sharing Pix, your situation has some similarity with mine. Though in my case, the contact is not much, so I am trying to dial back. I guess no contact is not an option in your case, minimizing contact, or keeping it professional (as much as possible) would be the next best bet. I have found that reduced contact definitely helps the situation. I also agree that minimizing expectations from LO would be very useful, though that is easier said than done, but definitely worth a shot. The whole situation is very painful, but I am working on managing the thoughts in my head. It seems I have made some small progress in this regard. This, apart from engaging in some hobby (working out, running) and connecting with family and friends would help. All the best.
Welcome, Pix. I’m sorry you’re in pain. But you’re among friends here, and, as you can gather, your story shares lots os similarities with a few of us here. Speedy, Vix, and Lovisa have good advice for you here. My story is here https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-year-purpose/
and in a few other places on the blog) except I thankfully do not have to see my LO very often for work. It’s a total mess, though, and if I could have my chance again I would not declare (I didn’t mention limerence, but I told him I felt an undeniable attraction and connection with him). Believe me when I tell you how difficult it is to not declare – I felt like I literally could not hold it in any longer. But the relationship just gets too fraught and the pain I have felt for these last 9 months since LO pulled away in an abrupt and careless manner is just excruciating. I wish I had found this site sooner and extricated myself before it was too late.
Carefully staged, very subtle (so no-one, including your LO, is the wiser as to what might be going on) withdrawal is the key, here, I think. That means dialing back conversation to polite work-only interactions, no outside messaging, and therapy for yourself and your marriage. Please do keep posting and take care.
“Carefully staged, very subtle (so no-one, including your LO, is the wiser as to what might be going on) withdrawal is the key, here, I think. That means dialling back conversation to polite work-only interactions, no outside messaging”
I sit on the other side of this dynamic and believe my boss LO did this to me. However subtle you are, LO WILL perceive the rejection. Staged withdrawal has felt like a slow, uncontrollable, uncertain, is-he-or-isn’t-he, addiction enhancing form of torture… spread over a year or more. Ripping that plaster off quickly, while painful, would have been so much easier to bear and would have ended my LE quickly.
I personally favour frank, open, honesty in my dealings but I acknowledge that this has its own risks and challenges, especially in work situations like these. There is no easy solution, some things just take time to work there way out of your system.
Much good advice given above.
Wishing you well.
You know what, Allie? You’re so right here now I think about it. In one sense, my LO kind of did that to me (pulled away without a conversation) and it has caused 90% of my pain (the other 10% was that it ended at all). I think the contradiction, and why I recommended a strategy to Pix that I have suffered hugely from myself, lies in the fact that there has been declaration/some reciprocation in my case, so the rejection is obvious. But in Vix’s case, there has been no declaration, and no sure sign of reciprocation: in that case, I am worried about the complications of an overt conversation about why Vix is pulling away (i.e., a declaration of sorts). And by “complications” I mean a possible sexual harassment lawsuit if his LO does not feel similarly and/or hasn’t noticed the LE from Vix’s side. (My LE does not involve a direct coworker, let alone a supervisor/underling relationship, although for sure there are ethical questions about a consultant having a PA with a client).
But I want to think about Allie’s words more to clarify my own feelings. (and sorry to hear your LO is pulling away/has moved on, Allie – notwithstanding the fact you say nothing was going to happen, it is so so so painful when it “ends”).
The problem with ripping that NC/LC bandaid off is you have to pretty much disclose to do so. That can be a problem
Allie, what do you think about going “gray rock?” What if Pix becomes boring to his LO? Do you think it could fizzle out?
Try and put them off you.. yup that seems slightly better to me. But when you are close to someone, they will realise when you are behaving off with them. And they will take it personally.
All these techniques feel like a subtle form of gaslighting to me. Works only for the benefit of the person doing them, always to the detriment of the person having it done to them.
Of course, when you are saving yourself from deep limerent suffering, saving your marriage/family/etc, the ends may justify the means. But we should never kid ourselves that behaving this way is harmless.
I am now 3 weeks into NC(not by choice lol) and feel pretty good generally. There are still days at work that I get a little down but nothing like the wild swings of our day to day interactions. I actually find work quite a bit more boring now. There is nothing to really look forward to. I miss the heartfelt conversations.
Neither one of us has reached out since our last time together helping her load her stuff to move. Probably better that way.
She does pop into my dreams from time to time and I still think about her from time to time. If it is possible it seems like LC or NC is healthy. It hurts like hell at first but I feel fairly normal again now.
That is good news, Rufio! Thanks for the update. It’s good to see you.
Thanks all. I agree that NC is a good option. However, in my case, NC is not a choice. Any advise on how one can manage the interactions with LO if NC is not an option would be really appreciated. Basically need to find a way to get out of the highs and lows owing to warm and aloof LO behavior.
I honestly never found a way when I saw her every day. I would have moments but ultimately my stomach jumped every time I saw her. My situation was a bit different though as well because I knew she was leaving. Your best bet is to limit contact as much as possible and really focus on watching your thoughts. Tell yourself the truth if you can. I hope things improve!
Thanks Rufio! In some sense, things are improving. The highs are still high, but the lows seem to not be as bad as they were, and I seem to be able to manage them better. I do have a tendency to get all fidgety around LO, so I do make efforts to keep contact as formal as possible — be firm, confident and formal, easier said that done right. Perhaps the LE is running its course, and things will look up, not totally perfect, but more manageable. Thanks again.
I’m in your situation AN. My LO is my employee and I have to collaborate with her every day at our office. I can’t go NC.
Here is my deal…I gave up trying to “get over” her and instead manage the emotions by following some rules. My rules include routine everyday interactions that don’t really vary. I have become accustomed to them and they don’t send me on euphoric highs so I also don’t get depressive lows. I try not to go anywhere with her, I don’t text or phone call with her, I just interact with her inside the walls of the office mostly around other people. Our interactions are warm, but routine.
My romantic desire for her is still there, but it does not cause me much distress operating under my rules. I can handle it. My hope is over time the limerence fades away. It’s already a lot better than 6 months ago.
Also, do not do anything that puts relational expectations on her. This leads to disappointment when she does not respond how you prefer. Just keep things routine and in your control and give it time. Took me a good few months before I started to feel better.
Good luck!
Thanks Speedwagon! Yeah, not being able to go NC does have its challenge, doesn’t it. My LO interactions are also quite routine, so I know beforehand how they are going to play out. Hopefully, I will become accustomed to them like you. I must say that I am managing them a bit better than before, but still some ways to go. Hoping it gets better with time. Completely agree that not having / minimizing any sort of expectation from LO is a good way to go so as to avoid disappointment later. Am trying to be as casual about the LE as I can. Appreciate the advice.
Hey everyone, I’ve been away from the website for a few weeks but just wanted to check in again. I’ve been reading through the postings here for the last couple weeks and it was good to catch up with all of your lives – sounds like you’re all continuing fighting the good fight
I think last time I posted was a little over a month ago, when things got really emotional and heated with LO to the point where we were both kind of entertaining the thought of letting our relationship go from EA to PA. Since that time…
– She pretty much cut off all contact with me for about 3 weeks – I sent her a text like once a week during that time just to check in but otherwise left her alone. She kept telling me some variation of “it’s not you, it’s me”, saying that she was really stressed about other stuff in her life and didn’t have the energy to talk with me. I strongly suspect that she was intentionally going NC to protect both of us, which I respect, but it would have caused a lot less hurt and confusion for me if she could have just told me that – I’d say for anyone who is already post-disclosure, it would be much kinder to tell your LO that you’re going NC and why, rather than just cut off contact without warning or explanation (if you’re in a situation where you haven’t and can’t disclose, then obviously it’s a lot harder)
– About 3 weeks ago we ended up in the elevator together with a few other people in the morning before work. We briefly made eye contact and then she looked away. By the time we made it to our floor, she was clearly sobbing although she tried to hide it. I sent her a text after that asking how she was doing, and then she came to my office later to visit in person for a few minutes – the first time we’d actually been alone together since January. We ended up smiling at each other awkwardly for a few minutes, not discussing anything of substance and then she left. We haven’t been alone together again since then
– We’ve had a few pretty frank and emotional texting sessions since then – she told me once that she doesn’t see any point in us continuing a relationship because it can’t go anywhere, and it’s been causing her a lot of anxiety because it’s wrong, and a lot of sadness because she knows it can’t be forever. But then other times she tells me that she just feels so good talking to me and knowing that I care about her, and that she doesn’t want to completely end our relationship
– One day a couple of weeks ago she texted me out of the blue asking me if I would do psychedelic mushrooms with her, which shocked the heck out of me because it was such a departure for her previous desire to distance herself from me. Now she wanted to sneak off to use mind-altering substances together? I knew she’d been interested in trying them for a long time because of all the research about how they can treat depression, and that day told me that she wanted to do them with me because “it feels safe with you”. Man that felt good to hear, and I was really tempted, even though it would have been a major escalation in our relationship that definitely could have lead to serious consequences with SO… fortunately we came to our senses a few days later and agreed that this was actually a pretty bad idea and we won’t do it
– I’ve been desperately wanting to to talk with her for real, not texting or brief interactions at work, just for understanding or closure or something, but she’s been steadfastly avoiding an actual conversation – the last few times I’ve texted her to ask if we could talk, she just didn’t respond at all (which has hurt a lot)
And finally today, she told me by text that she did decide for sure to go back to school full time, and will be leaving our workplace in 2-3 weeks. I feel equal parts relieved and heartbroken. I’m crushed by the thought of never seeing her or hearing her voice again, but at the same time I know that this is the only way to get my sanity back – especially recently when the pain to pleasure ratio in our relationship has been highly skewed towards pain.
She said she’d talk with me on the phone tomorrow – I hope she’s actually willing to. I just want to spend a bit of time clearing the air about a few things that happened over the past month, and to talk about how we want to play things for the last few weeks she’s here. Ultimately my goal is that we can go our separate ways with good feelings for each other intact – I want her to remember me as someone who cared about her deeply, loved her for who she truly is, and always wanted the best for her, and as someone who had a positive impact on her life overall despite the pain and heartbreak – so my goal for the next couple of weeks will be to try to engineer that kind of ending (while also avoiding falling into any traps like thinking it would be a good idea to kiss her just once before she leaves…)
Thanks for the update. Sounds like such a a wild ride with you and LO. Makes my relationship with LO seem very very boring, which on one hand is how I need it to be but on the other it is hard not to want the drama to happen. The drama is fun and exciting. You have plenty to go around.
Do you think once she leaves you will be able to go NC or will that fact that she is gone from your place of work remove a professional barrier and you both fall deeper even still? What’s your plan with her once she leaves?
Thanks Speedwagon. A few months ago the drama was fun and exciting. Every day felt amazing for the first couple of months, and then for a couple more months the pleasure and pain were about 50/50. Now there are occasional flashes of fun and excitement but they’re super rare, and mostly it’s just pain and confusion and depression and emptiness. I’m honestly really glad she’s leaving – I’m so tired of it all and I’d actually hate to be in your situation with no end in sight.
I don’t think things will escalate in the future – our barriers to consummation have been all about our relationships with our SOs, not about professional barriers, so that won’t change. I suspect that after she leaves we might chat a couple times and then she’ll just ghost me and that’ll be that. I could be wrong but that seems like the most likely thing and probably the best outcome honestly. Maybe it’ll end in a way where I could text her a few months later and we could catch up a bit without all the feelings – that might be nice. We’ll see… but at this point I’m pretty much accepting that it’s over and while I really miss the good feelings we used to provide for each other, it just seems like there’s no way that’s ever coming back and honestly that’s for the best (since I do really want to stay married and not hurt my SO)
Honestly I’m worried about myself falling into another LE. The feeling of falling in love with someone and her falling in love with me was incredible. Nothing else in my life can come close to matching that feeling in terms of intensity and excitement. I want to feel that way again. I’m having trouble really enjoying anything right now, feel like I’m just going through the motions. It’s like all the colors in my life are muted, my senses are dulled. And it really sucks because my life is good, the people close to me in my real life are actually pretty great, but I just feel bored, restless and empty. I’m sure my neurotransmitters are all screwed up and deficient. Maybe I should try an antidepressant. Maybe I just need to continue therapy and lean into my SO and family and keep giving it time. I don’t know. I wish there was a way to get limerent for my SO. That would be the best thing. I love her but it’s a comfortable love, not an exciting love. How can I get myself to just be content with comfortable love and not crave exciting, passionate love?
” The feeling of falling in love with someone and her falling in love with me was incredible. Nothing else in my life can come close to matching that feeling in terms of intensity and excitement.”
Yeah nothing beats that feeling does it. I try to convince myself that it is not real but it was real once and had we had been single, we would have been happy. Letting go is so hard. But when you come out of the other side you will feel better. Clearer headed, more engaged and motivated in all other areas of your life, happier within your important relationships. More present.
Wishing you well.
“I want her to remember me as someone who cared about her deeply, loved her for who she truly is, and always wanted the best for her, and as someone who had a positive impact on her life overall despite the pain and heartbreak – so my goal for the next couple of weeks will be to try to engineer that kind of ending (while also avoiding falling into any traps like thinking it would be a good idea to kiss her just once before she leaves…)”
You can get a ton of mileage out of this! You can kill hours crafting the perfect goodbye. Even better, when she’s gone, you can ruminate on how you could have done it differently. You can run the gamut from “Casablanca” to “Gone With the Wind” and everything in between.
These might help…or not.
“Amore, Scusami [My Love, Forgive Me] – Jerry Vale (1967) “Baciami” is Italian for “kiss me.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E_gOodTNss
If you want to play it a little less over the top:
“Bye Bye Baby (Baby Goodbye)” – The Four Seasons (1965)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNBVJJoIpSI
But, stay away from the kiss.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/withdrawal-pains/#comment-2912
WRT the above link. The day my coworker left, she swung by my office to say goodbye. She gave me a hug and said she’d miss me. I told her that I’d miss her to. In all the years we worked together, it was the first time we actually touched.
I saw her one time after she left.
LE – thanks for the good suggestions as always! I’m definitely already devoting plenty of time and mental energy to imagining and rehearsing the perfect goodbye – I even bought her a little gift yesterday (nothing huge, just a sentimental thing that’ll mean something to both of us). I’m imagining lots of tears, outpourings of well wishes for each other, a nice sturdy hug but no kiss…
My fear is that she’ll skip out completely on seeing me on her last couple days at work – she has a tendency to just shut down and disappear when faced with overwhelming emotions. She’s a fearful-avoidant and I’m an anxious. She and I actually had a good discussion about that yesterday – I was able to recognize some of the times that I’ve just overwhelmed her with feelings she hasn’t been able to handle and I tried to apologize for that as well as I could, and she confirmed for me that the times she’s hurt me by ghosting me for various periods of time were a result of her not knowing how to handle overwhelming emotions so she just shuts down.
So I’m indulging in a lot of fantasizing about the perfect goodbye, while also preparing myself to accept that it might not happen at all – acceptance is the key word right now, remembering that it’s really not gonna matter much a year or two from now and life will go on either way
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_o_0nCdKk7E
Hi Lost in Space, thanks for the update. The situation with your LO sounds exhausting. I was stuck on one thought after reading your post…
Please don’t kiss her, please don’t kiss her, please don’t kiss her.
Kissing LO will cause emotional problems for both of you AND marriage problems for you. Please don’t escalate this thing.
Be strong and end the craziness. She is trying so hard to do the right thing, don’t make it harder on her.
Good luck and thanks for checking in.
Thanks Lovisa. Don’t worry, I have no intention of kissing her. If I couldn’t bring myself to actually do it 3-4 months ago when we were filled with lust and hormones and both just waiting for the other to make the first move, I’m certainly not gonna do it now when we’re just empty shells of sadness slogging through the final days of a dying relationship. She’d hate me for it, I’d hate myself for it, nothing good would come of it. I can’t even bring myself to properly fantasize about it anymore, definitely not going to actually do it in real life.
Funny thing – today is the 20 year anniversary of the first time I kissed SO. We barely knew each other, had talked like 2 times before, and then both got overcome and spent an entire night making out on my friend’s couch at a house party (which was super out of character for both of us). I walked her home the next morning and we were inseparable from then on. We moved in together like 2 months later. We were so passionate about each other for those first few years, it felt clear we’d found our soulmates and would be happy and in love forever. We always hoped we’d die together somehow because neither one of us wanted to live a day without the other. Nowadays we are still good friends and still love each other, but it’s a comfortable love, not exciting or passionate or consuming. I realized recently that I hardly ever think about her when we’re not together – I was reflecting the other day about how many countless hours I’ve spent thinking about LO and how rarely I think about SO… I think I just totally take her for granted and it’s so easy to just go through the motions. Any suggestions to make our love feel more exciting again?
It’s hard because she’s actually perfectly happy just being comfortable and has very little interest in things like excitement and passion, and it seems I crave those things quite a lot
“Nowadays we are still good friends and still love each other, but it’s a comfortable love, not exciting or passionate or consuming.”
Sounds like you have a really good marriage. Sadly I think we have to choose that OR excitement & passion but cannot have both. Bah!
I should also add that I really relate to the need for passion and excitement. I think sometimes we have to seek excitement outside of relationships.
I started learning to horse ride 2 years ago (at 50!) and now galloping country hacks and show jumping have become my passion in life. Plenty of excitement to be had doing something a bit risky!
Allie,
You’ve taken up riding?
My daughter took riding lessons for several years and I used to work with a woman who’s an equestrian in her off time. We went through 3 stables. Some barns are better fits than others. At one, I’d drop off my wife and daughter at the stable, my son and I would go to the golf course down the road, hit a bucket of golf balls, pick them up, and go to lunch. It was a fun family ritual.
From what little I saw and what my coworker told me, the “barn culture” is a world unto itself. Even my wife started getting into being a “horse mom.” It wasn’t pretty.
Riding has everything you’d want in a hobby. Exercise, discipline, time-consuming, and expensive. Are you considering buying your own horse? My coworker said that owning a horse was even a better money pit than owning a boat.
Some of those people were positively cutthroat.
As for hobbies, I took up the oboe at 58. One of the cats will jump on the bed when I practice. Everyone else closes their doors or leaves.
“Even my wife started getting into being a “horse mom.” It wasn’t pretty.”
He ha ha!
My daughter also rides and competes. She persuaded me to try it I became as utterly hooked as her. Am hoping to be good enough to compete in a show or two next summer… eeek! The only downside of the sport is having to hang around with young girls a lot.
Yup buying a horse or two is the dream. One day… sigh.
Thanks Allie! I think that’s exactly right – we can either spend our lives bouncing from relationship to relationship always chasing the new relationship high, or we can learn to appreciate comfortable love with one long term SO and use the security of that relationship as a base to explore other exciting opportunities that life has to offer. While nothing else might quite match the high of a new limerence relationship, I know that chasing that from person to person isn’t a sustainable way of living nor a road to real happiness.
Hi Allie and Lost in Space,
I want to address something, you both seem to agree that the excitement dwindles in marriage and you are left with “comfortable.” I disagree. Being with my SO is both comfortable and exciting for me. What we have is better than any feeling that I got from LO. I realize my limerence doesn’t make sense. I still can’t figure out why I had limerence in the first place, but I suspect it was because I was going through withdrawal from antidepressants and ADHD medication. I really don’t know, but that is my best guess. And then I distracted myself with LO3, using transference, but the limerence is so mild with LO3 that I question if I am limerent. LO1 was seducing me on purpose and I naively fell for it. Also, I have learned that I have a weakness: attractive men. Dang it! My SO is incredible, but I still might find myself attracted to another man regardless of how great I have it at home. I just have to watch my boundaries.
Lost in Space, you asked what you can do to spark your marriage? I can tell you some of the stuff my SO does that I love. I love to be pet so I lay in his lap and he pets me while he is watching TV. He also says “thank you” for little things like the chores. He takes me hiking, biking and running. Yesterday, I was so happy about Adam’s good news and I told SO about it. He snuggled me close and said, “Well maybe his wife thinks he is worth fighting for.” He looked at me in a way that implied he thinks I am worth fighting for. He also asked if Mrs. Adam put her wedding ring back on which is a great question and it shows that he listened when I told him that Adam was wearing his wife’s ring on a necklace. My SO still looks at me like I am Christmas morning. He will lose his train of thought if I come out of the shower in a towel. He’ll stare and say something like, “I am so lucky.” That kind of stuff keeps the flames burning. Those are just a few examples. I guess it all comes down to him convincing me that I am the center of his universe. Also, we like to try new adventures together (I am talking about wholesome recreational activities, but that statement applies to the bedroom, too). My SO refuses to look at anything pornographic. He leaves the room if an uncomfortable scene is on the screen. I made it okay for him to be curious, but he believes that if he sees other women in sexual ways, it will create a barrier between he and I. In 2018 an ecclesiastical leader encouraged the men of our church to avoid pornography because they “will never be able to get close to their wife because pornography will be a barrier.” My SO confessed to me that he had been using pornography, he apologized and took actions to quit. He says he hasn’t used it since then. I know he could be lying about not using pornography, but he doesn’t have to lie. I am very accepting and open minded about it. Every time we talk about it he says he doesn’t want to have anything preventing us from being close so he doesn’t use it. Also, the marriage helper guy says that by not using pornography, he is more turned on by his wife’s body than he would be if he used pornography. So maybe you could consider if you want to quit porn. I am not judging you either way. I am just listing things that seem to be working for us. Oh and maybe this is relevant, my SO is my only source of sexual satisfaction for the most part. I will rarely take matters into my own hands so I am highly motivated to keep things going well between us because I can survive 2 weeks max before sexual frustration takes it’s toll on me. I have rarely hit the 2-week mark since I married SO almost 25 years ago and every time it was because our kids were causing stress (dang kids… kidding!…kinda).
Allie, I love that you are riding horses. I used to ride horses with my grandfather. Many of my neighbors have horses, but our lot is barely under sized to have horse rights. We are thinking about getting goats because my SO and one of my daughters love goats. We have dogs and fish right now. I want a cat, but too many of us are allergic to cats, nuts.
Lost in Space, my LO3 does extreme sports to get his dopamine highs. He owns a residential addiction recovery program for teenage boys which he pours his life into as well. It’s quite remarkable. I noticed that when he takes his boys on trips, he pulls away from me and I think it is because he gets plenty of excitement on his trips. The trips are usually running races or motocross races, he also takes the boys on outdoor adventures. Some of his clients have never been hiking which blows my mind considering that we live near beautiful mountains. Maybe a new sport would be exciting for you. I love that your cat supports your oboe adventure. I can’t really blame the humans for walking away, lol. Thank you for promising not to kiss your LO.
I am rambling and my girls will be home soon. I’ll stop. Have a great day!
Lovisa, thanks for your thoughtful reply as well – so much helpful stuff there as always!
I think maybe it’s about perspective – I love all of the things that you listed, like cuddling with SO, petting her hair, giving each other back rubs, having long conversations, learning and listening to each other, trying new activities. All of that is great and fills me with happiness and contentment! But for me it just does not provide the same type of raw dopamine hit that interactions with LO provided. For me that’s the difference between comfortable love and exciting limerence. Dopamine vs serotonin. Contentment vs thrill. A tasty and nutritious home-cooked meal vs a couple lines of cocaine. I think I need to just work on maturing and continuing to find peace within myself so that I’m not chasing unhealthy thrills and highs and can focus on the deeper, more meaningful pleasures of daily life with SO.
The thing about how he looks at you when you get out of the shower really hit hard for me. I definitely used to look at my wife like that – watching her get out of the shower or get dressed in the morning really did feel like Christmas morning to me every day. Then she basically stopped caring about her attractiveness – gained 50lbs, lost her shape, started wearing baggy sweats around the house and making jokes about how great it is to be married and not have to worry about looking hot anymore. I feel shallow and crappy for saying it, but I’d be lying if I said that physical attractiveness isn’t important to me, and I really don’t know what to do about SO’s sustained and overt lack of interest in wanting to look sexy for me. Any suggestions?
And finally, I agree that I should give up pornography or at least try a good long break from it. I’ve definitely been using it more in recent weeks as an attempt at self-soothing, which is obviously a very temporary fix that doesn’t do anything good for my feelings of emptiness and discontent.
Ok, I’m actually going to phrase that more strongly. Instead of saying “I should give up pornography”, I’m saying “I will give up pornography for the next 30 days and will see if I feel better as a result”
Lost in Space, I have been pondering your question, but first…
Wow! I love what a goal-setter you are. I am looking forward to seeing how the 30- day pornography fast goes. I am so surprised and impressed with your commitment.
As far as exciting goes… I did something exciting with my SO today that was better than a LO dopamine hit. My 13-year-old invited us to her track meet and we ended up being the adults that measured the shot put distances. It was new and exciting for me. My daughter threw 3 feet further than any other girl and she out-threw most of the boys. Whoa, I had no idea that she was that good at it. Stuff like that is fun and exciting to me. It’s just an example.
Now, to answer your question… what can a man do when his wife’s weight gain diminishes his attraction? I can only attempt to answer this question. First, I will tell you that I was anorexic until about a year after I married so my perspective is skewed. Also, my SO gained approximately 10 pounds per year for the first few years of our marriage and I got quite alarmed watching it happen. There was nothing I could say that was helpful. I tried to “help” but my words were just hurtful and he still sometimes reminds me of stuff that I don’t remember saying that hurt his feelings. About four years ago, I sincerely stopped caring. By then my SO had gained more than 100 pounds since we married. I surrendered and decided that it wasn’t going to matter to me anymore. I know this is weird, but we have an obese pug who I love and it hit me that no matter how fat my pug gets, it won’t effect my love for him. I don’t know why, but it crossed over to my feelings for my SO and I genuinely love him the way he is. There are times when his weight bothers me, but it isn’t because of his appearance. When he has back pain or medical problems related to his weight, it bothers me. There are some hikes he can’t do with me and I am sad about it, but not too bothered by it. Let me tell you the only things that have worked. When we lived in the Caribbean for a few years, he didn’t gain one pound. That was big progress. I used to prepare big meals and stuff him as full as I could with lean meats, rice, beans and salad. We almost never ate processed food. I think the heat could have contributed, too. When you’re hot, food just doesn’t sound good. The other thing that seems to be working right now is that my SO feels threatened by my very physically fit LO. My SO has been on his own weight loss journey lately. He has been running, cycling, weight training and intermittent fasting. I encourage it, but he chose these things for himself. He also wants to be fit enough to do rim-to-rim at the Grand Canyon with me. I think he knows I will ask to do it with LO at some point and my SO doesn’t want to hold me back, but he definitely doesn’t want me to be alone for 24 miles with LO either. That seems to be his motivation. He says he is motivated because he is trying to win me back, aww.
As for weight loss for a female, I have been thinking about times when I gained weight. Other than pregnancy, I have never been more than 20 pounds overweight. While I was on antidepressants I was almost 20 pounds more than I am now. It’s the biggest I’ve ever been besides the day I delivered my daughter. The thing that helped me lose weight was quitting antidepressants, intermittent fasting and lots of exercise. I was surprised by how fast the weight fell off. I don’t think my SO could have said or done anything to help me lose weight. I already felt frustrated and hopeless. If he had said something, it just would have hurt. I’m coming up blank here. I don’t know if you can help your wife with weight loss. Maybe you can spark that sexy feeling in her with sincere compliments? I don’t know if you have been following Adam’s story, but he saw Mrs. Adam in a tank top and thought she looked hot, but didn’t say anything. If something like that happens, jump on it! Tell her she’s hot. It could spark something.
I’m sorry your SO isn’t trying to be sexy and she justifies it vocally. That would bother me, too. I feel sympathy for both of you.
I don’t think I was helpful, sorry. I’ll let you know if I think of anything else.
Thanks Lovisa! It’s always helpful to get your perspective on things.
You say that your SO’s weight gain doesn’t affect your love for him at all, and I believe that, because I feel the same about my SO – I love her deeply regardless of her weight. But on the other hand… you keep finding yourself limerent for fit and attractive men, and I keep getting limerent for fit and attractive women, so maybe even if a spouse’s weight doesn’t affect our love for them, it likely does affect feelings of sexual attraction that leave a void that we might be subconsciously looking to fill with another person? If your SO was taking great care of himself and looked great, do you think you’d have been less vulnerable to falling limerent for these other men?
That’s great that your SO is using your LO as motivation to get himself back in shape! He sounds like a really mentally strong guy to be able to use that feeling of competition as motivation to do something that’ll be good for himself. My SO unfortunately is the opposite – one of the biggest mistakes I ever made was to try to motivate her to get fit by comparing her to LO3 – that threw her into a tailspin and led to the worst fights of our marriage. In her case the feeling of competition was not a healthy motivator at all, and I certainly learned my lesson to never try that again.
Interesting thing about my current LO – her body is super sexy, just the perfect female body in my eyes. I don’t think it’s the main reason for my limerence with her, but I’m sure it played a role. Anyway, I always found myself admiring her body and sometimes making unfavorable comparisons to my SO, like “why does LO make the effort to look great for her cheating deadbeat SO, while my SO can’t make the effort for me?” Then a month or so ago, LO told me that the reason her body looks the way it does is that her SO has always controlled what she eats and doesn’t let her eat things that’ll make her get fat. Hearing that made me feel all sorts of things – sadness for her, rescue fantasies about her controlling SO, anger towards him mixed with guilt for myself for the times I’ve tried to control my SO’s eating (in much less overt ways, but I’m definitely not innocent)… it also made me think about how often men just look at a woman and see a sexy body without knowing any of the reasons why she looks that way – is it just intrinsic motivation to be her healthiest? Or is it something darker like insecurity, disordered eating, a controlling SO? That definitely got me thinking a lot about the role of visual attractiveness in our lives
Regarding my pornography goal… my addiction recovery group always ends with everyone making a SMART goal for the week – the goal is supposed to be specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and timely. And we’re supposed to use strong action words like “I will” rather than weak words like “I should” or “I’ll try to”. So that’s the framework I generally try to apply when making any sort of goals. Anyway, one day down and so far so good 😀
That is a lot of good information, Lost in Space. I don’t know where to start. I’ll start with your question. Do I think I would have less limerence for other men if my SO were more physically fit? No, my LO2 has a dad-bod, just like my SO. It’s the emotional connection that lures me in. My emotional intimacy needs were lacking when I became limerent for LO2. He is an old friend who I could always talk to, but this time I was vulnerable. Don’t get me wrong, he is an attractive man, but he isn’t especially fit like LO3. Also, I am certain that my interest in LO3 was also emotional. The physical is a very nice bonus, but not the main reason I like him. And I still question if I am limerent for LO3 or if it is just an attraction.
You are absolutely right to wonder why a beautiful woman puts so much effort into her appearance. Unless it looks genuinely natural, there is a story behind it. I have a friend who competed in triathlons for 10 years because her SO pushed it on her. She is married to a loving man now and she is trying to find a new motivation for exercising because her new SO won’t pressure her. When she found out that I was running, she asked odd questions about my husband, which now I know was due to her assessing if my passion for running was actually pressure from my SO. Some things look great on the surface, but it could be a sign of a problem. For example, I graduated with my Bachelor’s degree with a 4.0. I didn’t get one A-. That sounds impressive, which it is, but it is also a sign of perfectionism. I put a lot of effort into my classes, probably more than I should have. When I learn that one of my kids’ friends has straight A’s, I automatically wonder if they have a mental illness like anxiety or OCD. I am rambling again…
I love that you have an addiction recovery group where you can set SMART goals. I love support groups. I think I am a support group junkie.
My two cents I said goofbye to LO and haven’t seen her again; just let it happen. I really said nothing but “goodbye” and “don’t be a stranger”.
Working on getting on the other side of limerence, I am very glad I left it as it was. Remember your brain is not letting you see things for the way they are. For her it maybe just another goodbye. And at the average age most of this community is here, we have probably left jobs for various reasons. To her this may not be a big deal. She may say “I’ll miss you” and probably means it, and gives you a few random thoughts down the road but limerence makes you see it differently.
I know your LO seems so nice and particularly kind to you. But as I can see in hindsight LO was just a nice lady in general. She was to everyone. My limerence misconstrued that as special treatment, when in reality I was giving her special treatment that was unsolicited.
Take it from someone that is now dealing with the fallout of guilt of what I put my wife AND LO through. Neither of them asked for what happened. And both of them deserved better than what they got from me. My actions may have seemed to be for her benefit but really I was pushing her into a role she didn’t ask for and pushing away my wife. Don’t put LO and your wife through what I did. If you care for your LO do the thing that is right for HER and not yourself.
One last thing and then I will stfu …. it may not have been the right motivation to keep me within the acceptable actions for having a female co-worker, but it worked. Think about how what you say/do for this last goodbye will impact LO’s life. When LO was content with a simple goodbye and got in her truck and drove off I realized (though still in limerence then) that I was just another co-worker at another job that will soon be forgotten. It hurt then but I realize now, almost a year later, that the devious effect of limerence can make you do things that you will regret. And it’s best to try and minimize those bad choices as much as you can.
I might have had a chance to have an actual friendship with LO if it weren’t for the limerence and my actions. Who knows because what is done is done. And what is done is she is gone and I have a hurt wife at home that by all rights could walk out the door. And don’t forget, if you do have any, you drag your whole family through it too. I have effected my children and possibly lost their trust or respect. As a functioning alcoholic there’s nothing I despise than the “I was drunk” excuse for bad actions/choices. But I tell you my friend limerence does the same to you and the amount of excuses I had for my wife was shameful and hurtful.
I still read many of the posts – yours very carefully, Adam. There are some pearls of wisdom in this one although I think you are too hard on yourself.
I have been asking myself this simple question today. How can it possibly last for so long? For me, No Contact since Christmas (I’m being ghosted) and the last meeting with LO was over a year ago.
I’ve been busy making other social arrangements where possible. How amazing it’s going to be when the limerence fades.
Never, ever again!
I can totally understand. From start to finish I spent 2 years in limerence and knew LO for three. I go into in more detail in the New Years blog post, but my wife read some of Dr L’s posts that I printed out back when I found this place and she wanted to talk about it. I found that scary at first but you know once we plowed through it, being honest about what this has done to the both of us it was actually a relief.
For me, I take at least one walk a weekday and spend at least an hour or so playing games with my son. I’m trying to occupy my mind and my time when I am not at work. It helps greatly to get my mind off LO. And I feel some relief of pressure from the limerence. I know I am on the right track to getting over this. And I think you are on the right track to it too frederico.
Lots of people here when I first found this place said it will get better with time. The limerence will fade. You see LO rationally. I didn’t believe them really then. But, not to be clique, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. You can do this frederico!
I agree with Miss Lovisa that they are both important in equal proportions. I may have gotten to comfortable in my marriage. Maybe it was a lack of passion as my wife goes through this low in her bipolar (through no fault of her own). Both could have been the reason (not an excuse) that I fell for limerence.
I think the comfort builds stability which important. And passion keeps the connection tight so as things like limerence, EA, PA and the like can’t get in. Just like when people, the victims of an affair, find out they often wonder “why?” The answer could be numerous things, like as mentioned for myself with limerence, but in my opinion there is no excuse for it. I think you should end one relationship before you make another one. The insidious thing about limerence was even though I knew there would be no relationship with LO I still justified and escalated the limerence.
Now things to do to keep the passion? Better than any amazing sexual experience (and there’s been a lot of great ones) we’ve had in our 23 years is out of the blue my wife (who never plays video games) wanted to play Resident Evil 5 with me when it came out. The hours WE spent together with that and the sequel RE6 was some of the best memories I have. To have her take an interest in one of my hobbies was so exciting. Kind of teaching/guiding her through the game until she started getting better at some aspects of the game than me lol Good times.
Miss Lovisa, no I am still wearing it on my necklace. I will keep it safe until she is ready. And I will give her all the time she needs. But this morning she was up early like me. I got ready for work and was about to leave and she gave me a goodbye kiss. I imagine due to my behavior it is something she stopped doing through this LE. It was nice. It made my day. I don’t think I deserve this second chance but I am going to try not to look a gift horse in mouth and just try to be a better husband now.
“she gave me a goodbye kiss”
This is a sign of a woman who wants to work on it, Adam.
And I remember reading you said something about finding her hot in a tank top and wondered whether you should reach out and hug her? As a woman I say an emphatic: “YES”
Nothing is more wonderful than feeling desired. If you can both make the other person feel desired, it will go a long way towards getting back together.
Yes that was me. I will try to take the initiative more, but I also don’t want her to think I am trying to rush into things after all I have done to her. Even before the LE when she’s just had a bad day or tired she’s not in the mood for physical touch. And even though that’s my love language I need to let her take the first steps for a bit until I can tell what she is comfortable with again.
But yeah I was like, is this a sign she at least wants to try? Thanks for reassuring me Emily.
Adam,
Things are going in the right direction!
Clip of the Day: “Top Gun” (1985) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e686mVWXhY0
I’ve thought that in many ways “Top Gun” was a metaphor for my relationship with LO #2.
Song of the Day: “As Long As You Follow” – Fleetwood Mac (1988)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROGEHq1WZqU
This may be my favorite Fleetwood Mac song.
Adam it is so cute that you two played video games together. Aww, thanks for sharing that sweet memory.
It is interesting that you are still wearing her wedding ring. SO and I both wondered. Hopefully, when she is ready, she’ll ask for it back. I love how you carefully respect her boundaries.
Adam, trust me, you deserve this second chance. I suspect that I speak for many of the LwL commentators when I say that you are too hard on yourself.
Lost In Space
Your most recent post reminded me of an blog post I read some time ago (and thankfully saved the pin on pinterest) that talks about the very thing you mentioned. It is written by a woman who her and her husband do marriage counseling. And when I randomly came across this pin and read the article it was like she was in my head. Everything she said is true but I had absolutely still (and I think a lot of men do also) no way to articulate what I read to my wife.
And she is completely right in the reason why a lot of men won’t bring this up with their SO and continue to suffer in silence. There’s no way to broach this subject that will probably not end in a good way. Because in this subject we are fighting years and years of social norms, propaganda, stereotypes and prejudice. But as I was typing up and email this article just popped in my head and I said I need to post that for LiS.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/askshaunti/2018/01/desire-husbands-dont-like-discuss/
Adam, thanks for sharing that article. It’s so spot on in terms of what I feel.
“In your man’s mind, if you put an effort into taking care of yourself, it shows that you care for him – and if you don’t, he feels that you don’t care for him.”
That sums it up pretty well, right? My SO knows I’d prefer her to be fit, that I find fit bodies more sexually attractive than obese bodies (and she readily admits that she prefers fit male bodies to obese ones), that I want her to be healthy and active with me long term and not get sick or die before me… yet her actions ever day show me that she cares more about eating junk food, drinking sugary drinks and watching many hours of tv every day than she does about staying healthy and fit. Right or wrong, it does make me feel that she cares less about me as a man and as her husband, and that she takes me for granted and doesn’t feel a need to put in even moderate amounts of effort. It hurts when she jokes about not needing to look sexy anymore since she’s married, and I get jealous of male friends with fit wives – like “why does his wife care enough to make the effort and mine doesn’t?”
I love my wife very much, and I love her no matter what her body looks likes. And if I had to choose, I’d prefer to live with an obese but happy wife than a fit but unhappy wife, if those were truly my only two choices. But I do really struggle to understand why she can’t commit to basic self-care when she knows it’s important for herself, to me, and to our shared future. It frustrates me and saddens me, and I also think it does make me more vulnerable to limerence when a woman with a fit and sexy body shows interest in me.
You’re welcome.
One thing I can offer if you are concerned about your wife’s health in regards to her eating habits, you can try Noom. It’s how I lost the 40 lbs that I did starting in 2021. It’s really effective because it teaches you about your relationship to food and how daily decisions effect your health. It really doesn’t deny you anything as far as what you eat. But teaches portion control and why certain foods you can eat more of and some you might need to eat less of.
It starts off with a short quiz when you go to their site to try and decipher a plan of action and which type of plan to make for you. They make a personalized plan for each person that uses their service, catered to your goals. When I tried it they did offer a free trail, which I am sure they still do, but can’t promise it. Maybe you could do it together to give her support. It teaches you a lot of things about food whether you want to loose 5 lbs, 50 lbs, or just learn how to eat healthy.
Thanks Adam. Glad to hear Noom worked so well for you! My SO actually signed up for it last year, did it for a few weeks and then lost interest. Now she’s signed up with a 1:1 online personal trainer (at my suggestion) but hasn’t really made any progress after a couple of months because she skips half the workouts and cheats on the meal plans every day. I’m not saying anything to her about it because it’s not worth an argument and it won’t make any difference anyway. Basically if a person isn’t internally motivated, it doesn’t seem to matter what external supports they have.
It sounds like you must have been really motivated when you did Noom. Was your motivation primarily about your LO or was it something else?
I think your wife needs to find herself an LO Lost In Space. Best diet motivator ever!! 🙂
I really relate to this. My SO is also unhealthily and un-sexily overweight, despite doing lots of exercise and frequent diet attempts. I love him but do not desire him. I would be delighted if he slimmed down but I don’t think he ever will so I must just accept that and do my best to empathise with his weight struggles.
His slimness is one of the things I like about my LO.
I do think it is incredibly hard to lose weight long term, especially for those with less fortunate genetics, whom suffer from higher levels of hunger and/or experience less satiety after eating. Few people seem to succeed but 70% of people seem to be always trying to lose weight.
Allie, I am guessing you are fit. It is interesting that you don’t desire your SO at all. Do you think his weight is the only issue? I still desire my SO regardless of his weight. After all, he is the only naked man available to me and I love… well, I will let you fill in the blank because I don’t want to be inappropriate. Could there be something besides his appearance holding you back?
My LO2 recently started having sex with his wife after one of her girlfriends recommended some new bedroom techniques. They have been sexless their whole 29.5- year marriage. They have even gone more than a year without sex, and their high is every other month. I couldn’t survive that. He survives it because he has such a strong commitment to his family and his god. Well, it turns out that his wife wasn’t climaxing. They got a sex toy for him to use on her and now both of them are getting their needs met. LO2’s friend is refusing to do the same for his wife and LO2 has enlisted me to help him talk his friend (our mutual friend) into it. LO2 doesn’t want our friend and his wife to suffer needlessly any longer. So I asked the friend, “Does your wife climax?” He doesn’t know. My SO and I talked about it last night and we are quite certain that a man would know if his wife climaxes. I wonder if she hasn’t learned her body like LO2’s wife hadn’t learned her body. It blows my mind because these women are married and in their forties and not having regular orgasms. I can’t imagine living like that. They twisted our religion into believing that sex is bad. The only thing our religion teaches is that we are only supposed to have sexual relations with someone “to whom you are legally and lawfully wedded.” There are no rules against sex toys or getting creative in the bedroom. Anyway, I am beginning to wonder if this is a common problem. If you snuggle your SO, does that trigger desire in you? Are you able to have fulfilling sex? If not, how does a marriage survive without sex? I’m curious because sex is important in my marriage. And my two male friends who talk somewhat openly about it are sex-starved. They have recognized the problem for a long time, but they don’t know how to fix it. Well… one of them finally fixed it, but the other one is too scared.
Allie, if I snuggle my SO, my impulse is to slowly send my hand down his pants. Of course I don’t always do that, but the impulse is always there. Do you find your hands exploring your SO during snuggling? I know you love love your SO because you speak so highly of him and marriage in general. Do you snuggle him?
I appreciate how open you are about sharing your experiences, but I understand completely if you’d rather not discuss this subject.
Dr. L, I understand if this post gets censored.
Hi Lovisa,
I know it seems like I am new here- but I am not. I follow the blog daily and have for about a year. We’ve actually “chatted” but it was a while ago, and I can’t remember my handle! Oh well.
I hope your response does not get taken down because I think the main message (or at least what I took as the main message) is so important! Which is to TALK to your SO other what turns them on. Even if you have been married for a long time, don’t assume you necessarily know how they are feeling now. I always think your suggestions for how to be more physical with a partner are awesome, and what I would like to add is start by asking your partner what makes them feel good. Choose a time when no one is stressed out with kids, housework, work etc. and talk about what excites them. Have a glass of wine, put on some nice background music, make a nice dinner- set the stage so that your SO will enjoy opening up about what makes them feel good.
I think women often KNOW what they like, talk about it all the time with their girlfriends, but rarely with their partners. Which in my opinion is a total bummer. Talking about sex can be really fun!
Like you, I enjoy a very fun and frequent sex life with my husband. We have sex daily, and it is one of the ways we connect as partners. We have been married a little short of 20 years, and I can say our sex life has has only become more fulfilling as we have gotten older.
We have two wonderful children, and my body reflects this. I love my body and feel very sexy- but you know- I’m also in my mid forties, and am not as fit as I was when I got married. I do work out, but I also am just aging in a normal way. One thing I love about my husband (who is a marathon runner and tri-athlete-so super fit) is that he ALWAYS makes me feel wanted and beautiful. We really enjoy going for walks and hikes together, but it’s never about getting exercise for the purpose of being more attractive. We cook all the time together and have fun trying out new recipes. Finding new healthy recipes is something we enjoy together.
My husband regularly tells me how attractive I am to him (this is such a turn on-right Lovisa!) and every so often he will tell me that he thinks I’m even sexier than when we met. Now- I fully believe that he feels this way- but I can tell you- from a purely physical standpoint I was much hotter when I was 25. But because of the nature of our relationship our sex life is definitely better now 🔥.
During lock down I did gain a lot of weight, and he never once made me feel ugly. If anything, he was more loving because I think he sensed that I needed support (I had a job that became extremely intense because of covid.)
I felt sad when I read “In your man’s mind, if you put an effort into taking care of yourself, it shows that you care for him – and if you don’t, he feels that you don’t care for him.”
My husband knows that I love him because of so many things about our relationship and the way we interact. I think our very happy sex life is much more a reflection of how we treat each other and less about how either one of us looks. Because we trust and know each other so well we feel free to explore in bed. I really enjoy doing things that I know turn him on. It’s exciting and makes me less like a busy suburban mom and more like a lover. It’s actually a huge joy in my life- but I would never feel like that if I felt like my husband was judging my body. It would completely shut down my ability to be sexy with him.
I’m sure one could have a very loving relationship even if you agree with that quote. I’m not judging anyone who thinks that- and actually my best friend often says a version of that about her husband- so maybe it’s why I find it problematic?
I’m just offering another perspective. 🙂
Well said, Summer! I agree completely with everything you said, except that I can relate to the quote from Lost in Space. I see why it would be hurtful, too. I can see both sides of it. I hope Lost in Space sees your post.
I agree that sex gets better over time. This morning, even before reading your post, I was asking myself, “Was last night the best sex we’ve ever had?” We tried something new and it was amazing! It might be the best for me… at least the top 5.
My friend, who refuses to use a sex toy on his wife, asked me how to do it. He asked, “Do you just shove it inside?” I was like, “That sounds awful.” LO2 decided to be funny and replied, “Yep, you just shove it inside, go make yourself some popcorn, grab a soda, then come back and watch what happens.” Oh brother. I have no doubt they will want to address this subject next week.
Applause for your articulation of such a difficult subject.
Hi Lovisa,
Thank you for getting back to me. I am going to think about the other perspective of the quote. I appreciate that you often see both sides of an issue and have noticed that in many of your comments. Sometimes I can struggle with perspectives that don’t match my life experience.
HOWEVER- one thing I do have experience with is sex toys. I was thinking I would share my story, and maybe it might be helpful to your friend. 😂
When I was younger I never had any trouble with having an orgasm. Then about- maybe five years ago? it became much harder for me. I did talk to my obgyn. She said it was probably hormonal and that this was pretty common when women are getting into their 40s. I found it upsetting and actually hard to talk about with my husband- even though we are very open to talking about sex in general. I knew that he would feel like “less of a man.” I think it was hard for me too because it felt like I was losing that sexy (younger) side of myself. I really couldn’t imagine not having that be part of our sex life.
Anyway- my friend suggested getting a vibrator. I was open to trying it out, but my husband was really turned off by the idea. Part of the issue was that I wasn’t being honest with him about not orgasming (yes… I know… I know… never a good idea). I think he felt like if we used a vibrator he wouldn’t be as involved, or it would be less about him. I think it made him feel emasculated- which totally made sense to me. I know he likes the fact that his wife is so attracted to him… so this felt a little the opposite.
Anyway- I went ahead and bought one and tried it out without him at first. It took me a little time to figure out what worked best for me. Then once I felt comfortable, we would use it together but not all the time. It was definitively trial and error.
I think the most important thing about the experience was approaching it with an attitude of: this is something that could be fun. This is something we could enjoy together- but if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. No harm, no foul. It was important for my husband to know that the trouble with having an orgasm was really more about how my body was changing over time, and not related to my desire for him. It was important for me that he really understood that- but it also took me some time before I could voice my feelings.
This all happened a few years ago. Today, we actually almost never use the sex toy- I’m not even sure where I hid it. 😂 However, I am really happy that we did use it because it helped us be more open about what how our sex life needed to change as our (mainly my) body was changing.
This is just ONE of the reasons why I really encourage honest conversations with your SO if you have been married for a long time. I am physically different then when I got married, but I want my relationship to continue to grow and adjust accordingly. One of the reasons why our sex life has become so good over the years is that I am much more vocal about what I want. That is something I think a lot of women struggle with. When I was younger I was much more focused on how I could please the man I was with, but sex is so much better when it is about mutual fulfillment. I know my husband would agree!
On a side note Lovisa- in some ways we are very different. I am a hard core liberal, agnostic and had many relationships before I got married.
I imagine our day to day life might look different- but I also imagine that we would be friends in real life. I find myself seeing eye to eye with you so often in this forum. It just makes me smile. I also enjoy hearing your perspective because I do think we come from very different backgrounds- and in this world that is polarized, it’s nice to have a safe place to hear other opinions. Hopefully that makes sense and maybe your friend will benefit from my story!
Hi Summer, thank you so much for sharing your story. I will share it with my friend next week if he brings the subject up again. He is clearly thinking about it, but he is scared and I think he believes that a sex toy would replace him. He doesn’t seem to understand that he is still the star of the show.
My SO and I go through phases where sometimes we use them and sometimes not. We have other ways of achieving the same goal.
Interesting that you are agnostic and liberal. I don’t actually know what that means, sorry. I think agnostic means you don’t believe there is a god and you don’t care either. And I think liberal means that you prefer to err on the side of personal freedom over regulations. I am probably way off, but that is what I think of when I hear those terms. I have no doubt that we could be in-person friends, but I’ve never had a female friend who wasn’t Christian so it would be interesting for sure.
Thanks again for your response. It is very informative and helpful.
Hi everyone – lots of discussion and lots of different perspectives on this topic! I was really hesitant to even post about this initially because it is such a sensitive thing to talk about and I really don’t want to hurt anyone or make anyone feel bad, but at the same time I’m trying to figure out my own feelings and drives and motivations, and I think it’s clear that others here are dealing with the same issues (although all in different ways), so I’m glad this discussion is taking place and I really appreciate everyone discussing their feelings honestly without attacking anyone personally (and I really am sorry to anyone I may have hurt with my posts). I think this is a really amazing community to learn and grow with.
Lovisa: “I still desire my SO regardless of his weight. After all, he is the only naked man available to me and I love…” I think that’s a really interesting statement. I take 2 things from it – first, that you’re likely a less visual and more emotionally aroused person, and the emotional connection you have with him is more important that his physical appearance. Would you agree? Second, at least for me I don’t feel that saying “SO is the only person I get to have sex with and I love sex” is quite the same as saying “I find SO super attractive”. I also love sex, and am committed to only being with my SO, and I enjoy sex with her and am attracted to her in many ways that go beyond the physical, but at the same time, there is definitely something missing for me. Probably due to a combination of biology and social conditioning, my brain (like many but not all men) is wired to respond instinctively and intensely to particular shapes and curves of a woman’s body. It’s a strong and primitive and utterly subconscious reaction, and I feel it when I look at some women (LO included) and I don’t feel anymore it when I look at SO. And I badly want to feel it for SO! I really want to be intensely attracted to her, and I used to be, and know I would be again if she got back to a more fit body shape.
Allie: “ I think your wife needs to find herself an LO Lost In Space. Best diet motivator ever!!”.
That’s actually what kinda hurts because I know it’s true! If she was limerent for some other guy, or if we (God forbid) ever split up and she wanted to find another guy, I guarantee she’d be looking amazing within a few months. But she doesn’t care to do it for me, because she doesn’t seem interested in continuing to attract me or feel a need to continue attracting me now that we’re married. And maybe I should try to take that as “it’s so nice that she feels safe with me and doesn’t feel a need to worry about her appearance” rather than “she doesn’t care about my happiness”, but to be honest I struggle to fully believe that – not saying it’s right or wrong, it’s just how I feel deep inside.
For me, the fact that I’m the only guy my wife ever gets to have sex with is actually reason #1 that I try to keep myself looking good for her. I see it as part of keeping up my end of the monogamy agreement. I know what things she’s attracted to physically (she definitely lets me know when she sees a guy she likes on tv 🤣) and so I try to give her what she wants as much as possible. For example, a little while ago she was going on and on about how good this one male actor’s glutes looked. Obviously I’m not jealous of an actor on tv, but I took it as information about what she likes – I said to myself “oh, she thinks well developed glutes are sexy. That’s something that turns her on. I can’t look as good as a professional actor, but I want to do my best to be attractive for her” and so I did the men’s health 30 day glute challenge and started squatting 3x per week – not because I felt insecure or jealous, but because I wanted to give her something that she wanted. And she appreciated it and definitely liked the changes, but that doesn’t seem to go both ways for us.
Anyway, I feel like I’m going on too long, but I’ll say that I think there’s no right or wrong to this issue, and it’s really hard to talk about, but it does matter (more to some of us than to others) so I appreciate the space to talk about it and hear other people’s perspectives. Honestly I really wish it didn’t matter to me at all! If I could rewire my brain to either be non-visual or to find obese bodies sexy, I’d love to do that! I’d love to get genuinely excited about SO’s body the way it is now. But deep down, I’m just not. (and to be clear and precise, I’m not talking about 10 or 20 lbs or “things aren’t as perky as when she was 20”, I’m talking about 50-60 lbs of weight gain, mostly in the abdomen, on a 5’1” person that completely changed her body shape and erased all of the visually attractive curves and shapes.) And again, it definitely doesn’t diminish my love for my SO at all, and it’s certainly not an excuse to ever make her feel bad or to cheat with other women, but I think it is something I need to continue to understand and work on because I know it is a factor in my limerence episodes, and I know I can’t change her so I just need to work on understanding and acceptance
Lovisa-
Please share with your friend that my husband felt the same exact way initially! He was very reluctant to try out the toy, but then it ended up being a lot of fun- but also- as I said before- the most important thing was the conversations around changing things up in the bedroom. That has led to so many positive evolutions in our relationship.
As far as agnostic and liberal- By agnostic- I mean that I do not outright believe in God, but I also acknowledge that I do not and could not ever really know. Religion doesn’t play any role in my life. I consider myself a spiritual, thoughtful person- but I feel no connection to organized religion. Like you, I spend a lot of time in nature and that has always been the place most holy to me. Hopefully, that makes sense?
By liberal I mean democratic voting (for the most part) and socially liberal, but I try not to let that get in my way too much. 😉
It’s interesting- I have friends of many different religions but pretty much all of my friends are politically the same as me. I wonder if we are the opposite in that way.
I am curious, do you talk with your female friends about how their sex lives have changed since they have gotten older? I talk with my friends quite a bit, and it has been eye opening to read different perspectives in this thread.
Hi LIS-
First off, thank you for your thoughtful tone and for your honesty. When I read your most recent post I felt like… ohhhh…. I understand a lot more about what LIS is going through. The way you explained yourself felt super respectful to both readers on this site and your wife- at least from my (overly sensitive) perspective. I think you are right that these things are super personal.
Attraction is so damn tricky! I have so many thoughts about what makes me feel attracted to my husband and why he is attracted to me- but I am more curious about a few things about you. Feel free to dismiss these questions, but if you were in the mood to share I would love to hear more.
You said that you still love having sex with your wife and are attracted to her in many ways. Would you mind elaborating? What is it that you enjoy about sex with her? What are the qualities that you find attractive?
In terms of the weight gain- and I could be totally wrong- but I suspect that even if she was limerent for another it might be hard to lose that much weight and keep it off in the long run. As someone who watches their weight like a hawk- I can say it’s just… not easy for a lot of people to lose weight- and in fact- sometimes it really sucks to have to worry about staying thin all the time. It reminds me of when Lovisa was talking about the other side of having a 4.0 GPA. When I’ve complained about my weight in the past my husband likes to tease me and say, “you could be addicted to cocaine and then you would be REALLY thin!”
His point is that being thin does not always equate health or attractiveness. His mantra is: exercise, eat well and feel happy in your body. That is the most important thing. But I will say as a major athlete himself he has seen a lot of unhappy, eating disordered women- which is a real turn off for him. Anyway- apologizes. I digress!
And of course I have no idea about your wife or the specifics! (I don’t mean to be preachy.) But here is my second question- let’s just say your wife more or less is going to have the figure she has now for the time being or even the long run. I know from many of your posts that you really love your wife and want to stay faithful to her. Is there anything she could do (aside from losing weight) that would make you feel more attracted to her? Is there anything else she could do that would turn you on and feel wanted? Is that a conversation you could have with her? Is that a conversation you would WANT to have with her.
Is the weight gain the main issue for you? Absolutely no judgement if that is the case. I think that seems pretty normal. But I am wondering if that is really the only issue.
Finally, if your LO was just not a part of the equation. Like you moved on and forgot all about her- would you feel differently about your wife? For me, limerence made me desire my husband more. I am curious what your experience has been.
I’ve noticed that a lot of people say they wish they could feel limerent for their SO. I never feel that way because for me limerence is a total roller coaster that inevitably feels really, really bad. I’m not even sure I would want the highs of limerence long term. So much of my limerence was based on pure fantasy. I am so glad that my marriage is not like that! Yikes. I feel like that would be a nightmare in reality.
Anyway- thank you again for your earlier, thoughtful post. I hope my questions weren’t intrusive or out of line. I have a lot of respect for you for talking about these very personal issues.
Hi Lost in Space, thanks for opening up discussion about such a taboo topic. There was a time when my SO’s weight-gain bothered me. It bothered me a lot and I mostly kept my distress to myself because I learned that if I said anything about my SO’s weight, eating habits, or lack of exercise, I was labeled “insensitive.” The subject has been untouchable for most of our marriage. Not only does my SO make me feel like a selfish person for expressing concern, other people rush to SO’s defense if I say anything that could imply that I want him to take better care of himself. I finally accepted it. He kind of doesn’t chose to be overweight. As a whole, he would rather be fit, but in each moment, he chooses to do things like to have soda and popcorn at movies or eat processed food for breakfast. The little things add up and he doesn’t seem willing to change the little behaviors. And heaven forbid that I should say something like, “Do you think we could go to the movies and not get concessions? I want to see a show, but I don’t think it’s wise to eat this late.” If anyone else heard me say something like that to my SO, they would think that I am insensitive and controlling. I have been wrestling with this problem for 24 years. It started right after we married. I finally accepted it. I have no say in how my SO takes care of himself.
I pondered your question about arousal. I’m not sure if I know myself well enough to answer. I know that I am attracted to men who make me feel good. The best way a man can make me feel good is by caring about me, listening to me and validating me. When that emotional foundation is secure, arousal can happen. I think I get aroused when I feel desired. I guess you are right that the visual isn’t as important as the emotional. I will say that a fit man smells so good! I have the nose of a k9, and I love the smell of a man who takes care of his body. LO3 smells so good! There have been times when my SO’s smell was repulsive and it had nothing to do with his hygiene. I can’t explain it. Sex is challenging when you feel repulsed by a smell. I made the mistake of saying something and it is one of the things that SO brings up when he wants to illustrate how insensitive I was in the past. I learned to pretend like his smell doesn’t bother me.
Anyway, I hope I answered your question.
Summer, thank you for explaining what you meant by liberal and agnostic. I don’t know that I lean in a specific direction. I was a conservative republican until things got weird and now I tend to vote more democratic, though I try to vote more for the candidate and less for the party.
No, I don’t talk to female friends about sex. I have a few who will talk about it, but most won’t. Or perhaps the subject hasn’t come up. I can think of 4 friends who I’ve talked to about sexual topics. My sister is the best source for questions because she will talk about anything. I love that about her. Most of my friends won’t bring up the subject and I am not comfortable bringing it up with them. The fact that I can talk about sex with three of my male friends surprises me, but I appreciate it because I learn new things and they learn new things, too.
LIS… so sorry. I was jesting but realise I was insensitive about your hurt feelings regarding your wife.
To explain… I lost weight due to limerence. Despite being fit and enjoying plentiful sport and exercise, I have struggled with yo-yo-ing weight my entire life. I found the LE hormone cocktail killed my appetite and enhanced my mental and physical energy. I virtually starved myself for a year, something I never could have done without my limerence! And I did not do that for my LO, I did it solely for ME. Should I starve just to please my SO? No.
I am sure your wife would LOVE to lose her excess weight and be more attractive to you. EVERYONE that is overweight wants to be slimmer and more attractive. It is just such very hard thing to succeed it when you are wired a certain way, especially for women above 40, whose hormones are working against them. But that is not personal and no reflection on how your wife feels about you, or how much she values your need for her to be more desirable.
The science is that naturally slim people often have slim genetics. They have higher levels of satiety hormones and/or lower levels of hunger hormones. So staying slim seems relatively easy to them and they can never understand why overweight people cannot “just eat less”.
Wishing you well.
Thank you all for the thoughtful and honest responses. It’s amazing to feel so heard and understood here.
Summer, those are all great questions and I’ll do my best to answer them
1) What do I love about sex with my wife? I love the feeling of closeness more than anything. Looking deep into each other’s eyes, holding each other, feeling skin against skin and body against body while we move together, hearing the sounds she makes and the look on her face when she’s feeling good – it’s all just very exciting to me and also makes me feel so close to her. We almost always snuggle up tight afterwards and fall asleep holding each other and I love that. When we make love I almost always end up filled with feelings that she trusts me and desires me and loves me deeply.
2) What else would help with my attraction to SO if her weight stays the same? It helps when she’s emotionally available and open with me, and when she’s excited about life. She goes through periods of time when she can pretty distant and shut down emotionally, and will do things like play on her phone during our conversations and not really listen or want to talk meaningfully – this was the status last fall when my last LE began and definitely made me vulnerable to my coworker who was super interested in talking with me and gave me her full attention and was really open about her own life and emotions. Despite the recent topic, emotional connection is definitely the most important thing to me, and when things are good with SO and I in terms of connection (like they are currently) my attraction increases a lot. SO also goes through times when she’s not really interested in much and spends all her time watching reality tv and playing on her phone, and I don’t find her very attractive in that state. Conversely, when she’s excited and passionate about something (and it could be anything – right now it’s a book she’s reading and a new interest in houseplants) and she’s learning new stuff and trying new stuff and excited to tell me all about it, I find that really attractive – when she’s passionate about life and it shows, that really attracts me
3) Is the weight gain the main issue for me? In some ways it’s that simple and in some ways it’s not – yes because of the way my brain is wired to respond in a deep innate way to visual cues, and because I miss that particular type of attraction to her and end up finding it in others. And yes because I do really worry about her health and therefore our shared future – we have so many things we want to do together in life, and if she ends up immobile and sick prematurely, we’re going to miss out on a lot of that. More deeply, I think that the weight is the visual representation of her depression. She has always gone through periodic bouts of depression, and she always works to get herself out of them (and I greatly admire how she fights through it and gets help when needed). In the past, she would gain weight during depressive episodes, and then lose it again when she was feeling better. For the last 10 years or so, she tends to gain during episodes and then just maintain during her happy periods, and then gain again during the next depression. And I don’t want to be like “poor me, her depression is so hard on me” because I know that it’s 100x harder for her, but it is a very helpless and horrible feeling to be married to someone with depression as well, to see the person you love suffering and be unable to do anything to help them, and seeing her weight persist makes me scared that her depression will return and never let up in the future, which is know is unlikely but it still scares me. Not sure how much sense any of that makes…
4) What effect does my current LE have on my feelings for SO? At the beginning, it was negative. When I was deep into an EA with my LO a few months ago, I found myself thinking a lot of negative things about my relationship with SO, which I’ve concluded was a trick my brain was playing to allow me to rationalize my behavior. Now that the EA has essentially ended, I find myself having much more positive thoughts about SO. It’s like I had this experience where I actually did have an opportunity to be with someone else I desired strongly, but I ultimately chose loyalty to SO, and that gave me a better appreciation of how much I do love being with her and how much I love her and how she really is the person I want to be with forever.
Anyway, hopefully I answered your questions – I feel like I’m not articulating 100% clearly today but hopefully that mostly made sense
Allie – no need to apologize! I wasn’t hurt by you making the comment – I’ve actually thought the exact same thing myself many times in a half joking, half sad way. And thanks for your thoughts about how her weight gain is not a sign that she doesn’t care about me and that I should try not to take it personally
Lovisa – thanks for sharing as well – it’s validating to hear you express the same frustrations as me about feeling helpless to do or say anything, and end up getting labeled as insensitive or causing hurt to your SO any time you do slip and say something. I’ve felt exactly the same way for many years and it’s just not something that I can talk about with anyone
Sorry, one more post this morning… I was thinking about my relationship with LO in the context of this discussion. I know I’ve mentioned before that I think LO’s body is very sexy, and that I’ve always been physically attracted to her. But it’s interesting that for the first 5 years we worked together, I definitely noticed her and was attracted to her, but never had anything resembling limerence for her. The limerence didn’t start until we started talking all the time and got really emotionally open and vulnerable with each other and I really started to know her as a person – that’s when all of the strong emotions and constant thoughts and everything started.
And in fact, from January until recently, we basically had a long-distance relationship where we very rarely saw each other but just talked on the phone and texted all the time, and I can say that not seeing her or being in physical proximity didn’t decrease my limerence for her in the slightest – I felt strongly that I could be happy the rest of my life just talking with her on the telephone every day.
And it’s that emotional connection and bond that makes it so painful to end the relationship now. If she was just a collection of nice body parts, I wouldn’t be crying every day at the thought of never talking to her again – there’s plenty of other physically attractive women around, but there’s only one unique and special human being that’s my LO, and I miss her so badly now that our relationship has reached the end, and I’m devastated by the thought of not being part of her life in the future or possibly ever seeing her again. So I think that maybe the physical attraction may have set the stage for everything else to develop, but it was the emotional connection that has been far and away the driving factor in the limerence and the bond that seems so hard to break.
“Allie, I am guessing you are fit. It is interesting that you don’t desire your SO at all. Do you think his weight is the only issue? Could there be something besides his appearance holding you back?”
“Do you snuggle him?”
It is a number of factors not just his weight. If anything, I think his weight affects him sexually more than me.
My marriage is sexless and has been for a decade. My limerence for my SO wore off after a few years and my desire for him wore off shortly after. SO is lovely in so many ways but he is lazy and that applies to sex as much as anything else. Sexually, that leaves me cold. Feeling like that during sex compounds the low desire problem as I cannot feel emotionally close to SO during crap sex.
I am very much open, relaxed, sexually liberated, sensual and adventurous, and have no issues discussing sex, knowing and explaining what I like, etc. My libido is good. SO is the sexual opposite of me.
Our communication about the issue is also good, there are no resentful or hurt feelings either way. Over the years he has made many promises to do better, try something different, etc but does not deliver. Our lack of sex does not bother him too much it seems. It has been so long now that when we snuggle, while I enjoy the physical affection, I feel no desire to go any further, if anything the idea of sex with him feels a bit ick these days.
There is nothing I can do to change this situation so I just accept it. If the opportunity to have sex with someone else came up, I would take it. And I have permission to do exactly that but only the once. I had once desperately hoped that could be LO (limerent sex is awesome!) but now accept that will never happen.
Allie, you are a strong woman. Thank you for sharing. It is interesting that you have one “hall pass.” I would be sad if I knew I only had one sexual encounter left. You accepted it like a champ. I admire you for it. I might have more questions later. Sexless marriages baffle me.
Lost in Space, I always learn so much from your comments. Thank you for bravely discussing a forbidden subject. I’m sorry that the withdrawal pain is so intense right now. I hope it passes quickly.
I talked to LO2 and his friend again about sex toys, female orgasms and sexless marriage. I shared the stories that were shared on this thread. LO2 wanted to hear the discussion, but he didn’t want to participate. Our mutual friend said that your stories were helpful, he appreciated that you shared such personal information and he “took the information to heart.” Who knows where this will lead. FYI, I refer to the LwL community as my support group so I am sure that they are amazed that a room full of adults could talk about these things. I don’t know how to explain it any other way.
Summer, your story was especially helpful. Thank you so much for sharing.
I think the thing is once people get their happy ever after (aka marriage) they don’t thing all that comes after takes any effort. There is a feeling of entitlement: that your spouse will love you no matter what, no matter how you look, or in some cases behave … hence LIS’ discomfort for even voicing that it does matter to him that his SO does basic maintenance.
Laziness and lack of motivation may not mean you are unlovable, but it sure isn’t attractive!!!
Wholeheartedly agree with this.
It is far too easy to be complacent when you have a sure thing and thus feel totally secure and comfortable. I see this in so many marriages, expressed through so many different forms of behaviour.
Objectively speaking it’s a big ask isn’t it? You must be faithful to me heart, body and soul no matter what. Desire me above all even if I am letting myself go, not making an effort. Love only me, even if I am turning away from you and denying connection. And can’t even voice dissension because you PROMISED you would love me forever after so any thing I do or do not do is irrelevant.
I agree in theory, but in practice it’s usually more nuanced. Most couples I know that don’t get along both bring issues to their relationship. I think when spouses are out right mean and rude to each other it’s a lot worse than if one has let themselves go. I know plenty of very attractive people who are a**holes to their spouses. Give me an extra 20 pounds any day over being married to someone who treats you poorly.
I agree with Summer that there are definitely a lot of things more important that physical appearance and weight. My SO is significantly overweight but is a really great person and generally treats me with kindness, love and respect, and I consider myself happily married. On the other hand, if she looked amazing but was consistently rude or cruel or manipulative or controlling, I’d have been out a long time ago.
But I also agree with the sentiment that it’s important to keep putting in an effort to be the best spouse possible and not get complacent after marriage – and I think of this not just physically but also mentally, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually….
I feel that the marriage vows should be thought of as 2 sides of the same coin. On one side is the whole “I’ll be faithful to you and forsake all others” and on the other side is “Since you’re forsaking all others to be with me, I’ll do my best to keep being a great spouse to you for the rest of our lives and not just take you for granted”. And I feel that both of these should be considered equally important to a happy and successful marriage
However, I know there can also be some danger in this line of thinking, because I’ve used some variation of “SO isn’t making an effort anymore and takes me for granted” to justify multiple emotional affairs including my most recent one. I’m learning that it’s also really important to step back and recognize the times when she’s really doing the best she can at that moment in time, given the battles that she’s fighting for herself. And then I try to find gentle and supportive ways to communicate the areas I’m feeling bad about (because I don’t think saying nothing and letting frustrations fester is good either) without being overly critical in a way that makes her feel bad or puts her on the defensive. Currently we’re having sessions with our marriage counselor twice a month, and it’s been really helpful for facilitating this communication.
“I think when spouses are out right mean and rude to each other it’s a lot worse than if one has let themselves go. ”
Absolutely agree! Inconsiderate communication (or worse!) is just another form of behaviour that arises when you have a sure thing and therefore don’t HAVE to make an effort to keep them. Our culture leads us to believe we have a right to be loved by by our spouses. But I don’t believe that is true, I think must continually earn it.
Hi Lovisa,
I am so glad to hear that! One thing I like about this website is the connection with others. I find it comforting that I am not the only person dealing with these problems. I hope, whatever path your friend ends up taking, it will helpful knowing that what he describes is pretty common- and that there are ways forward.
On another note- I read your most recent comment about your text conversation with LO3. It sounds like you are in a good place with limerence! Yay.
In general, it seems like you do not despair in the way that I did when I was in communication with my LO. I think we both are coming from very happy marriages. I am really curious why you think your experience has been different. Or maybe I misunderstand your feelings. I wonder if your experience with therapy has helped you have these people in your life without all the pain and misery? I am still trying to understand how I let things get so out of control. As always, I would love your perspective!
LE
Lol you posted that Fleetwood Mac song and I am like I’m gonna tell him my favorite song of their’s is Mama Told Me and then when I looked it up on youtube it was Three Dog Night lol I don’t know what is my favorite Fleetwood Mac song. Maybe Landslide? But I do like As Long As You Follow. Haha as much as my cousins and sister watched Top Gun cause OMG Tom Cruise, I’ve never been able to objectively watch that movie since lol.
Miss Lovisa
We had another talk about LO last night. We got some stormy weather and were sitting out on the porch together. I told her about something you posted. About how you said that LO awakened in me primal instincts as a man. I told her how much I realized now that is so true. And that LO’s daughters may have been a bigger part of that than I realized since I always wanted one of my own. Especially before LO found her gentleman friend. She agreed that I was trying to preside and protect LO and her daughters. And maybe that’s because of our sons’ age and the age we are in our marriage that LO being younger and in a different place in life I may have felt the need to protect her and her daughters.
We are making some progress. And she grabbed me by the shirt as I was trying to leave this morning and gave me another goodbye kiss. I think she will want her ring back soon. But I will keep it till she does.
Yay! That is wonderful. You two are talking and she is showing interest. This is so exciting!
Hi,
I am new to this site having searched “why is my crush so intense?” and “How do I get rid of my crush?”. It turns out I am probably well on my way to becoming limerent. Or perhaps I am already in a full-blown episode of it! I feel like I must take action now before it gets the better of me and messes up my (work)life. I have sometimes in the past had crushes on people. But this one is becoming particularly awful. And it is to do with a colleague.
My usual approach to workplace romantic thoughts is “I am here to work and work is work and my private life has nothing to do with it.” So far so good. To give some background, I have been unattached for 5.5 years. I ended my last relationship and honestly felt elated to have my spare time back to myself. I wasn’t in the mood for dating at all. When Corona hit, I enjoyed working from home and having lots of time to myself doing things I had put off for a long time. Romance was dead in the water and I never missed it.
At the beginning of the pandemic, a new colleague (LO) joined my company. He is in a department that has hardly any overlap with what I do. We were never introduced to each other and I only received the very occasional professional email message from him. Of course, I knew who he was back then. I saw him around the office a few times and thought to myself “ good-looking chap”. That’s as far as it went. I never thought about him at all (usually everyone is taken at my company anyway, although the thought he may not be married crossed my mind due to the absence of a wedding band).
Anyway, fast-forward late 2022: We moved to new offices. On the first day everyone was asked to attend. Walking around to familiarize myself with its layout everyone was friendly and said hi after months of WFH (& no contact with each other). Now, I walked past LO’s new office and he seemed very, very delighted to see me through the glass partitioning wall. I was slightly taken aback as we had still never talked to each other in person. But then I forgot about it again. Cue our office Xmas party three weeks later. I was still not “tuned into” LO. He was elsewhere in the room (cannot miss someone that tall) talking to a different group of people but then kind of slowly steered that group along the bar in my direction. From the corner of my eye (while talking to colleagues) I sensed his body facing me directly from far away. As he came closer, he stepped forward singling me out (I was surrounded by several others) to clink glasses with me (and only then with people to my left and right). This left me highly puzzled. That same night after dinner a colleague and I got up from the table and chatted to each other when I happened to look over her shoulder and see LO sitting further away, facing me , staring at me for what seemed like forever with a cheeky grin while talking to another male colleague. At this point I was on high alert and my alarm bells went off!
That’s when my LE started after not being interested in anyone for years!
In the first week back in the office (many still WFH; he and I now go in about 2 days per week – not always the same days) I overheard a very monosyllabic conversation he had with his boss who asked about his Xmas break and how he had spent it. He mumbled something I couldn’t understand and then went “her family”, which led me to believe he may have a partner. To this day I have no proof of this.
I have seen him on a few occasions but never had a proper 1:1 conversation with him. Often, colleagues will gather round the coffee machine first thing in the morning. On one occasion while I was talking to someone else, he came round the corner and went “I have been looking for you!” to then ask me a professional question. In the conversation amongst different colleagues that ensued (& wasn’t professional), he mirrored my body language twice (I payed attention after shifting it). Every time we meet downstairs by the coffee machine, he will make eye contact, smile and greet me (other colleagues often say hi just to the entire group without “personal attention”). Before Easter, I arrived there early in the morning as he was leaving with his coffee. He seemed extremely pleased to see me positively beaming at me (no one else does that in this manner). Two hours later I went to get another drink when he was down there with an external visitor going “We always seem to have the same timing!” I could just muster a “oh well, it’s the mid morning coffee” . He clearly wants to talk to me. While I am very sociable and will chat and joke with just about any one of my colleagues, I now have this huge mental block when he is around! I just don’t know what to do with myself. I get nervous and fidgety. I can hardly look at him. Although I want to meet him, I almost have this urge to escape now. It is so bad. I feel like a nervous teenager all over again. I am not sure if he has noticed or if he just thinks I don’t like him and don’t want anything to do with him. At the same time he is on my mind most of the time. I feel I must break this terrible cycle of feeding the obsession and growing more and more uncomfortable around him. It’s agony.
Welcome Lisa! I loved your story. Based on what you shared, I would guess that you are not limerent yet. There is a quiz you can take.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/are-you-a-limerent/
I caution you against daydreaming about your crush. The worst part of limerence is intrusive thoughts and I think they stem from daydreaming.
Good luck!
Lisa
How he acts around you is 100% familiar. Looking back at LO a lot of the behavior of his that you describe is how I acted around LO. The “trying to get close but keep distance” (in my case because I was married though LO was single when I met her) hot and cold act is so what I did. At the time I met LO I knew she was single because of information from other co-workers.
Like you with him, when I first met LO I had no such thoughts. I just enjoyed working with her as she was a nice and professional lady. It was only through working with her and getting to know her as a person that limerence started to develop. Perhaps this is the case with him. Over time he has gotten to know you and finds himself interested in you. On the other side of the coin, you have noticed him noticing you and stirred something in you.
I can’t say for sure, his thoughts behind is behavior, but I can attest through my own behavior with LO that this man has a definite interest in you and if he is unattached, like Speedwagon I would say why not give it a try? Ideally limerence is suppose to drive us to pair bond with someone to seal a long lasting bond between two people. Limerence is meant to be a good thing, it’s just that far too often people get one sided limerence which leads to heartache. Believe me, it’s been almost a year since the last time I saw LO and I’m just now seeing the light at the end of tunnel when it comes to repairing my marriage and making it up to my wife who has chose to give me a second chance.
Hi Lovisa,
Thanks for replying. The daydreaming has started and in my heart of hearts I just know limerence has set in.
It’s the toxic combination of someone I find very sexually attractive (there aren’t that many people I feel about in that way) paying me attention (!) and the uncertainty (I just don’t know for sure if he is attached. I also cannot just ask.). Whenever I hear that someone is “taken”, this usually kills all my interest. I would never want to get into any messy situation.
So, yes, at this point there seems to be the possibility that he is single and attracted to me. As I don’t see him that often, we are in a professional situation and I just cannot ask these questions, there is a high risk this will lead to a situation that remains forever unresolved. I cannot let that happen and am very tempted now to avoid him as much as possible. I think I would rather withdraw, go cold turkey and shut down even the tiniest possibility of this leading anywhere rather than having to suffer mentally for the foreseeable future and it blocking me from finding someone else suitable.
One thing is clear, I am ready to date again and would like to have a partner and a sexual relationship once more. Maybe online dating will provide a better forum for seeking out such a connection. It’s also less risky when things go pear-shaped
“l think I would rather withdraw, go cold turkey and shut down even the tiniest possibility of this leading anywhere rather than having to suffer mentally for the foreseeable future and it blocking me from finding someone else suitable”
Hi Lisa, if this man may be unattached and available, and he seems to show interest in you, and you definitely have interest in him, why can’t you snoop a little and find out his situation? There must be a common person you both know that maybe you could discretely ask? Uncertainty tends to be a big driver of limerence and finding out his situation may help you greatly. If he is attached maybe that then squashes your feelings. If he is unattached, maybe you take more initiative with him towards a relationship.
I’m not sure why you are running from this because he might be a potential partner if you are ready for one?
One month of NC today. I have resisted the urges to text her just to see how she is doing or keep her up on new office “drama” liked she asked before she left. I still think about her and miss her quite a bit but the incredible highs and lows have gone away.
What is wild is I almost feel bored now at work. There isn’t much to look forward to and it is just go in, do my job, and go home. I never want those crazy emotional swings back but it makes me wonder what needs the limerence was fulfilling in the first place. While there is nothing to dread there is nothing to look forward to as well.
Anyway, I’m doing well as could be expected. Time seems to heal many wounds. Hope all is well!
Hey Rufio…good to hear from you. I’m glad the highs and lows are gone. The lows are the worst and I’m glad you have stayed away from texting. If she wanted contact, she would have texted. I can understand the boredom now. Is there a way to potentially meet someone new and available? Maybe you are ready for that?
Things with my LO are in a fairly boring place now, we have our normal office interactions and that is it. Texting is over and I try not to take her on outings where we are alone, last time I did I hit a low after I was not comfortable with.
Now I just sit around and wonder how long I will continue to have feelings for this woman…months? Years? I daydream of her quitting and moving on and being able to be NC but that does not seem likely anytime soon. Oh well…I can manage the highs and lows well, but life is boring with LO now and there is that part of me that misses the drama…the pursuit of her.
Keep pushing forward!
Hang in there Speed!
I’ve done a few online dating things but it is kinda weird and annoying. Perhaps I’ll try a bit harder. I totally feel what you are saying about missing the drama. The “do they /don’t they” stuff. I miss her friendship quite a bit as well.
Also,
” If she wanted contact, she would have texted. ”
100% this. If she was still around this would devastate me. At this point it is mildly disappointing but I can also understand based on the dynamics of everything going on.
This just popped into my head last night and I thought I would respond. Again, thanks for the reply. I’m continuing to follow your story Speed. Wish you nothing but the best.
Sorry boys, that is not true. She may want contact and not reach out. She could be thinking the same thing that if Rufio wanted contact, he would text. She doesn’t want to bother people any more than you do. But I feel confident that Rufio’s LO is only interested in friendship so contact might have different meanings to Rufio and LO.
I forgot to say “Hi.” Hi Rufio and Speedwagon. I hope you’re both well aside from the limerence.
Sorry Lovisa, not sure I agree. She is the one that moved, made a life change, left her other life behind. Rufio is respecting that change and not reaching out. That’s the appropriate thing to do. I think it’s more on her to initiate if she wants to stay in touch. She hasn’t which says to me she has moved on.
Lovisa, Speed,
I thought I would return almost 2 months to the day she left and tell you guys I broke NC yesterday. We finally moved someone else into her old position so I thought it was a good reason as it was an interesting choice by management.
My texting her started an avalanche of texts back and forth(some full page stories from her) for over an hour about how things were going, the changes we’ve had at work and how much she missed us. I could tell she had been waiting to hear something from me. She also dropped another subtle little hint that she did indeed read the letter I wrote her and remembered it quite well when I asked about her wedding.
All in all it made me feel really good but not in the limerent kind of way. I think knowing I’m not going to actually see her helps. Our other friends at work were happy to know she was ok and enjoyed the pictures she sent me.
In the end it seems Lovisa was correct. She said she had “meant to text but is the worst at it”. She is in her mid 20’s so I know that is a crock of shiet but it made me laugh. She just didn’t want to bother me. Hope you guys are well!
Hey Rufio, welcome back. Nice to hear an update and I’m glad I was wrong I guess. Sounds as if she was happy to hear from you and I’m happy to hear that the feelings of limerence didn’t come flooding back. Curious how you left it with her? Do you think there will be more texting or was this a one off in your mind? It’s different now too since she is married, I think you have to consider that. But it’s good to hear that forced NC really worked out for you. I always thought it would.
I’ve been struggling more lately. Nothing has changed much, and I am still pretty good about being LC with LO, though I broke it a bit this last week. I’m just exhausted of it all. I still have heavy desires and thoughts for her whether or not I’m pursuing her or laying off. We still have great chemistry together when we do interact which keeps me hooked, but I just can’t get away from her, I have to work collaborate with her, and it’s not in my nature to be cold shoulder and I don’t want her feeling weird about me, so I just soldier on and manage as best as possible. Best outcome I can hope for is she has to quit her job for some reason and steps out of my life. But that doesn’t seem like it’s going to happen anytime soon. I’m pretty resolved to keep working at LC though because anything more and I just find myself fantasizing about a life with her which is more damaging than anything else.
Still keep us updated should anything new happen.
Rufio! It’s so good to hear from you. Thanks for the update. Of course she wanted to chat with you. I bet she enjoyed every minute of your conversation. It’s so kind of you to do that for her.
You give me hope. It sounds like things are going well. Do you feel like the limerence is gone? How are your symptoms? I am surprised that your contact with LO didn’t cause any lows. I think it’s a good sign.
I had a deep conversation with my LO last week that left me craving more. I started thinking, “This must be what it’s like for Speedwagon and the other limerents who see their LOs regularly.” Ugh. The cravings were unpleasant. I think I did the right things to move past it.
1. I didn’t reread our conversation.
2. When I caught myself daydreaming about LO, I reminded myself that daydreams lead to intrusive thoughts so I was able to stop.
3. I distracted myself by choosing a race to train for. Now I’m excited about my race and not thinking as much about LO. What’s really cool is that my SO wants to do a shorter distance at the same race. We’ll do it together. Woohoo! I am so happy!
@speed I really feel for you man. I know how you are feeling very well. I wish I had some words of wisdom or some way I could help. We left it fairly open ended and if anything worthy comes up I’m sure we’ll text again but it might be another two months.
@Lovisa “Do you feel like the limerence is gone? How are your symptoms? I am surprised that your contact with LO didn’t cause any lows. I think it’s a good sign.”
My limerence is definitely gone. The chances of me ever seeing her again are so slim that none of it seems to register on the LO meter. I still miss her at work because she was fun to talk with but my heart doesn’t ache to be near her anymore. I’m actually surprised how much I genuinely care about her though. I’m super happy that her wedding was awesome and that things in her life are going well. I think I’ll always be her friend.
Glad you got a handle on the situation Lovisa! Good luck in your race!!
Summer
I was the one that originally posted the link that sentence was a quote from if you would like read or not.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/askshaunti/2018/01/desire-husbands-dont-like-discuss/
I find that most women balk at a statement like that. The author of the blog post offers a very in depth and fair explanation about what she means when she says that men would like their lady “to make an effort”. But it is rarely ever discussed why men will never voice this concern/need. And if we are a partnership in marriage than both sides deserved to be heard and both sides should be able to respectfully voice their concerns/needs.
My personal take, I too like your husband feel more emotionally and physically attracted to my wife than when we met. She’s more beautiful than ever and that’s because she is more to me as a person inside and out than when we were first together in the honeymoon phase. I can appreciate her more now. And I want everyone to see that. If someone were to talk to her they could see that. When I walk with her I want everyone to see how beautiful she is. I want to show her off, so people know just how fortunate of a man I am. I mean look she’s till here by my side despite a LE I am still going through. But either way I walk with her with pride even when we did go to the store together last night and she was in sweats and a hoodie and looked like I just left church.
And for you ladies that have been with your man for a long time, I can tell you that despite how you may feel about your body and aging if he says he thinks you are sexy, beautiful, hot, gets him hot and bothered, believe him, cause he means it. I mean hell I got a little more than a goodbye kiss this morning before I left and I wanted to call into work. She can get me hot and bothered with just a kiss.
When my wife’s bipolar is not killing her libido and we are able to be together more, I try to say and do things that reassure her how I feel about her and her body. But sometimes you ladies have to do something to reassure yourselves. When my wife will buy “pretty things” to wear to bed, she always asks me if I like it. I’ve told her sometimes “why not buy something that YOU want to wear that makes YOU feel good and not just for me”. I think midlife is very different for women than men. I lost 40 lbs, cut my smoking back about 80% and changed my wardrobe. Meanwhile she is getting pulled lower and lower by her bipolar and my selfishness. Add to that our oldest son started college last August and lives on campus and I know that depresses her that she doesn’t get to see him often.
Now many would attest that to the limerence. But I think that the midlife is what caused the limerence which caused me to make the changes that made me quash the insecurities of being in midlife. My crisis was the limerence. Whereas my wife was taking her midlife completely different, I think. I am not sure, and I don’t want to speak for her. Plus I’d imagine bioplar, you husband limerent over a much younger woman, and all my insecurities about midlife weighed a lot on her.
Probably even more so than me. And from what I have read of some men’s midlife crisis, some go much worse and some ended long term relationships, limerence or not. I am fortunate to have a woman that is as loving and forgiving as my wife is. Now I have to make the biggest midlife change; be a better husband.
Hi Adam,
Wow. Thank you so much for explaining more. I definitively understand where you are coming from better. I will read the post when I get back from picking up my kids from school. I appreciate that you took the time to explain more. I really love (and rely on) this website, but sometimes I feel like the conversation feels more from a man’s perspective. Now- that may not be true. That may totally be my own issues- and I own that- but I guess that statement made me feel bad. I am SURE that was not your intent! (Like I said earlier, you don’t know me, but I follow the thread closely.
Ironically, I put a lot of time and effort into making my husband happy… so I’m not sure why it would be upsetting. I’ll have to read the article and think more about it.
Thank you, again for such a thoughtful response. Much appreciated.
You are very welcome Summer.
I can see where this place might seem male dominated. I does seem that men (especially my age and older) seem to be more susceptible to limerence than women. That said, of all the comments I have read across many of Dr L’s posts, it does seem that within female posters there are far more that are the spouse of the limerent than the other way around. I also see a variety of situations with female limerents. Whereas a lot of male limerents follow the formula of younger female co-workers. Not sure what these observations mean but I am very thankful for the ladies here that I have talked to and given me a woman’s perspective on things.
And I am sure husband appreciates all the effort you put forth. One thing you’ll find in the posted link is that it is the effort itself not the end result that we appreciate. You are amazing to us and we put forth our own efforts for you to know that. So the effort you put into yourself is reciprocating our efforts. Plus we think you wives of ours are amazing looking and want everyone else to see that.
As a Dr. L’s blog reader and occasional lurker of its comments section, I just wanted to point out that the LwL community-run forum has posts that are predominantly written by women. I’m guessing many of us felt more comfortable writing about limerence and sex in a more private space than in a more public blog comments section.
Hi Adam,
I am laughing a bit because I was skeptical going into reading the article, and then I found the “men” described pretty much fit my husband to a T. He is super visual, loves going out for adventures and appreciates the effort as much as the outcome.
I agreed with most of the article, although I think it could have been a bit more general. I think both sexes like it when their partner puts in the effort. My “love language” is definitely deeds, so I probably appreciate effort even more. It was a good article, and I’m glad I took the time to read it.
I feel mixed about the occasional male vibe on the website. As I have said, I am a long time reader and have read every article that Dr. L has posted. I have also commented under different handles in the past- although I can’t remember what they were.
I would say recently there have been many male commentators who are limerent for a co-worker, but that has not always been the case. It seems to ebb and flow, but there are plenty of women who are limerent. (For the record, my horrible, excruciating, experience with limerence was not with a co-worker.)
I know that although I rarely comment, I need this website. This website, talking to my one friend who knows about my limerence, and listening to podcasts really help me with intrusive thoughts and just staying the course. As I know everyone knows- limerence has this horrible way of flaring up just when things feel like they have gone back to normal. Anyway- for me, this website is super helpful at getting back to balance.
Sometimes when I read the comments that are (for lack of a better term) bro-ie, I feel excluded. In my life, I have had A LOT of unwelcome attention from men. Just a lot of unwelcome flirting (sometimes by superiors at work), comments, jokes at my expense- that kind of thing. Nothing horrible- thank goodness. It’s more a feeling of discomfort in some situations with overly enthusiastic men.
Anyway- I really don’t want to be the PC police (yuck, no thank you.) but I think sometimes- this article is a perfect example- it is helpful to maybe explain in more detail? Or maybe tone some of the jokes about redheads back? Just a bit? Just a tiny bit?
I am probably being overly sensitive. In fact, I’m going to go as far as to say that I am absolutely overly sensitive about this- especially as I just wrote about sex toys- which could be out of others’ comfort zone. 😂😂😂 but as I’m sure you know- limerence brings out the crazy in all of us.
Anyway, I appreciate the conversation and you listening. I have been following along with you, Adam since the beginning, and have been thrilled to read your most recent posts about your relationship with your wife. I know this post might not seem like it, but I have been silently cheering for you for a long time. I know you are fighting the good fight. Cheers.
Hi Adam,
I’ve been sitting with the article now and have one more quick thought. I think “effort” can get complicated because of a lot of stress us women feel in other areas of our lives. For example, I am a working mother (and have a high stress job), keep my house super clear and tidy, cook most of the food, am in charge of making sure all the activities, play dates etc. happen, make sure to reach out to all four of the grandparents, send out birthday cards/presents, buy clothing for everyone, make sure my husband is making doctors appointments…. etc. etc. etc… I also put a lot effort into my looks like staying in shape, doing my hair and make-up, looking put together in terms of my clothing… but I’m sure you can imagine how exhausting all of this can become. Sometimes I literally run out of time in terms of getting to the gym because I prioritize my family first. I would rather have a nice dinner on the table then work out even though I know in my heart that I need to work out in order to stay sane.
My husband is SUPER appreciative and supportive. I do all the things that I do because I want to do them, and they actually give me joy and purpose in life– but I think if I felt judged on the effort I put into my looks I would get really frustrated. On the flip side, I LOVE it when my husband recognizes all the things I do to make our life work. It makes me so happy.
Does that make sense? I think it might be why a lot of women get frustrated. It’s like- can’t you see everything else I am doing?
I know this isn’t what the article was saying- I’m just trying to explain why it that one line initially bothered me. 🙂
Thank you again for the conversation.
@Lovisa “Sorry boys, that is not true. She may want contact and not reach out. She could be thinking the same thing that if Rufio wanted contact, he would text. ”
@Speedwagon “Sorry Lovisa, not sure I agree. She is the one that moved, made a life change, left her other life behind. Rufio is respecting that change and not reaching out. That’s the appropriate thing to do. I think it’s more on her to initiate if she wants to stay in touch. She hasn’t which says to me she has moved on.”
Lol, at the end of the day either one of you could be right. I have things I could text her about because she mentioned keeping her in the loop. She’s only been married a month though so I’m not going to bother her. If it is meant to be it will happen if not I wish her the best.
We are both right. She could want contact regardless of whether she reaches out (I’m right). It’s best if Rufio doesn’t reach out to her (Speedwagon is right).
My SO explained to me that men feel like they should let females initiate contact because they don’t want to push the female into something that she doesn’t want for example a hug. Women do the same thing, but for a different reason, women think, “I don’t want to bother him.” Someone has to give in and initiate contact. But in Rufio’s situation with his LO, it is best for Rufio’s well-being if he moves on. And Rufio is very likable. I hope he finds a nice, single girl to pursue. When that happens, I hope he takes a chance and initiates contact with her. She will be a lucky lady.
Summer I am going to try and address all your points.
Yes us men are very visual. Nothing gets my attention than my wife in a dress. But yes, effort in general in a relationship is quite appreciated. But I still think that the differences in what is “effort” on a husband’s part and wife’s is much different because we are much different in social norms. For example me changing the oil in my wife’s car as oppose to her cooking me a grilled cheese sandwich, both tasks we are both capable of doing ourselves individually is “effort”. And she makes the most amazing grilled cheese. I don’t know how she does it.
My love language, as it goes with my wife, is physical touch by a landslide. I read the book and took the test. Hers was “words of affrimation”.
A lot of male limerents on this site being limerent for much younger female co-workers I can understand is distressing to their spouses if they disclose. Miss Lovisa posted once that older limerents for younger LOs is because these younger LOs awaken in the limerent primal instincts. In my case LO was divorced, ex being toxic and having two daughters caught in the middle. She said I was caught in a “protect and provide” mode because they had no one else to do so for them. I was trying to do for LO and her daughters what I was doing with my boys and my wife.
It took me 10 years into our marriage to not take sex toys personally. To give the male perspective you have to understand after a session you voice that that wasn’t enough to get you where you want to be that is an incredible blow. I wasn’t good enough. I feel short. I’m inadequate. But exploration helps. So ladies please be patient with your man. Also guys … use all god gave and some things that man gave you. Make her squirm.
Effort I think on both sides can easily be taken or granted. My wife has only worked twice, one voluntary and one not, but I recognize the energy it took her to raise our boys day in and day out. Just like my mother did. And like my father that worked multiple jobs I have too, to put food on the table and pay the rent.
Summer don’t feel judged. It’s all different. Ive went to adult stores with momma, and yeah it’s mostly for women. Guys aren’t under the pressure to be sexy but my god you wear “that thing” to bed, he’s going to notice and show is appreciation whether it’s snuggles or more. I can tell you when my wife was gone due to our son in the NICU I often slept with one of her “pretty things” because I could smell her on it. It was comforting.
Adam-
“To give the male perspective you have to understand after a session you voice that that wasn’t enough to get you where you want to be that is an incredible blow. I wasn’t good enough. I feel short. I’m inadequate. But exploration helps. So ladies please be patient with your man.”
Yes! 100%. I could not agree with you more. I think that was my husband’s experience. Which was upsetting for both of us!
But also- Men, please be patient with your lady. Because it can be a real bummer to find out that things that used to feel amazing no longer do (and might even be a little uncomfortable.)
All the more reason for open communication in the bedroom!
You know- I actually think all the wonderful things we do for our spouses and all the effort we put in is actually living a purposeful life. I really enjoy doing all the things that I do.
I think it’s just also important to remember to recognize our spouses (as you pointed out.) I don’t mean anything more by that. I imagine you are really great at telling your wife how you appreciate her. You do such a good just explaining the things you love about her on this website.
Finally, that is a very sweet story about your wife’s pretty things. It’s interesting that both you and Lovisa were talking about smell today.
Thank you, again for the conversation.
LIS-
You know- I’ve read your response twice now, and I am at a loss of what to say. I think what you wrote is so beautiful and moving. I hope this doesn’t sound silly, but I would copy/ paste it and put it somewhere safe. Is there any chance you could share some of what you wrote with your wife? I imagine any women would be touched to hear the answer to the first question.
Thank you for your honesty in question three. I can definitely see how the weight could be both just be the aesthetics and also what it represents. But where do you go from there? I am really curious what Lovisa would say to this. I want to know what changed for Lovisa to make her now feel more attracted to her husband.
LIS- I’m curious- how does your wife feel about her weight gain? Do you guys ever talk about it? Does she connect it with her episodes of depression? Do you think she feels sexy in her current body? I know for me personally, how I feel about my body is not always related to how my body looks at the moment. (Not trying to compare myself to your wife- just making a connection.) Do you think the reality shows are a distraction? A fantasy?
I think it is fantastic that you have such connected, loving sex. I imagine that makes your wife feel great.
You are so insightful about your marriage. For the record, I think it’s ok to say that your wife’s depression is also hard on you. I think depression can be (is usually?) REALLY hard for a spouse. Just because someone you love is struggling doesn’t mean your feelings don’t count. I think your fears for the future are totally, completely reasonable.
Also- I can relate to being attracted to a LO’s essence over their body. My LO is not nearly as attractive on a physical level as my husband, but his personality was completely addictive. So much so that by the end I did fantasize about having a PA… I know everyone on this site basically says the same thing- but it WILL get better with time. No contact is the best medicine. When I went NC with my LO, I physically was in pain. I know there is a good post on this! https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-why-is-limerence-so-painful/
It was pretty much excruciating for about a month and a half. Slowly, it has been getting so much better, although I still think about him quite a bit.
I liked Dr. L’s most recent post on languishing- also shout out to you! I have felt that way a bit after the excitement of limerence. I imagine you are not quite there yet? Did you agree with him that your wife might be languishing?
I am definitely not a therapist, and I don’t have any advice for you- but I so appreciate everything you shared. It’s hard for me to put my finger on or fully explain, but it does make me feel better when I hear about how other people deal with their limerence. Maybe it’s the feeling of not being alone in this battle?
I had a wierd suspicion the other day that my SO prefers to keep me a little less attractive to keep other men from being attracted to me? Anyone else have an experience like that?
Cora
I am actually the exact opposite (though I wasn’t always this way) of what you say. I actually take it as a compliment if notice another man eyeing my wife. Because I trust her to be faithful (more so than me with this LE) to me and have no issues men noticing my wife is attractive. If anything it’s an ego boost to think that other men are looking at my wife and I know that she chose me and is loyal to me.
“Yeah buddy she’s out of my league but she chooses me, so look all you want but she’s a painting in a museum; look but you can’t touch.”
Cora, I’ve definitely seen this happen both with men and women – I’ve even heard co-workers articulate versions of this about their spouses. I’m also with Adam that I don’t feel this way personally. I want my wife to be as attractive as she can, both for me and for her own self-esteem, and it doesn’t bother me at all if other men find her attractive. In fact, I really wouldn’t want to think that she’s just with me because she doesn’t have any other options! I’d prefer to know that she’s with me because she continues to choose me on a daily basis, not just because she’s stuck with me. I feel like as long as I’m doing my job being the best husband I can be to her, then I shouldn’t have anything to worry about from other guys.
I feel that in an ideal marriage, both partners would be regularly putting in work to be the best version of themselves – both for their own happiness and their spouse’s happiness – and both partners should be encouraging and helping their partner to be the best version of themselves. My wife should help me to be a better person, and I should be working on being a better person for her (and vice versa) – and this will be defined differently in every couple, but for me it includes everything from working out and maintaining good health, reading and learning regularly to continue growing intellectually, attending to my own mental and spiritual health, cultivating my hobbies and interests and sharing them with her, doing my part around the house, making romantic gestures and making her feel loved and cared for, and regularly communicating with her to learn what else she needs from me. If I do can do all of that consistently and be the best husband I can be, then I shouldn’t have to worry about any attention she gets from other guys.
“But also- Men, please be patient with your lady. Because it can be a real bummer to find out that things that used to feel amazing no longer do (and might even be a little uncomfortable.)”
Totally agree. Our sexual compatibility as a couple is based on both of us communicating our needs and wants. My wife was very patient with me in our early years. When she would express that she hadn’t gotten there rather than help I would leave the room to let her do it herself because I felt I wasn’t good enough for her. I finally came around to realizing that men and women are much different and that we should both strive to understand each other and work as a team to meet each other’s needs.
A funny story about my wife’s things. One time when she was gone, I was home alone, she took the boys with her, and yes I had been drinking lol. So I am sitting on the end of the bed deciding what to do and I see one of Momma’s knee high boots. And I’m like hmmmm? I got to give it to you ladies, it ain’t easy walking in heels. I barely made it down to the hall before I went back to the bedroom before I fell and killed myself lol I got a whole new respect for you ladies that night.
So the thing I’d been anticipating for awhile now finally happened – actually happened last Wednesday but it’s taken a few days to be emotionally ready to post about it. Anyway, as I’ve written before, LO is leaving the workplace in a couple of weeks, and things have been pretty strained between us for the last month and a half, and last Wednesday I finally got a text from her politely but firmly asking me not to text or call her anymore. She told me that it makes her feel too sad and anxious to continue having any contact with me, and she wants our interactions to be minimal and professional for the rest of our time here
Overall I’m relieved. For the past 6 weeks or so, our contact had been minimal and pretty strained. I’d gotten the distinct feeling that she was pulling away, but every time I asked her about it she’d give me some version of “it’s not you, it’s me, I’m just going through a lot of stuff in the rest of my life”, and then like once a week or so we’d have an interaction where she’d still be really warm and open and affectionate with me, which was just enough to keep me engaged and hopeful that things could get back to being the way they used to be between us. Plus I had this fear of abandoning her in her time of need – what if she really wasn’t pulling away from me intentionally but was just caught up in her own stresses and depression – wouldn’t it be totally wrong to abandon her after everything I’d told her about loving her forever? Wasn’t I obligated to keep trying to be there for her?
So finally hearing from her directly and unambiguously was therefore a blessing – no more false hope of restoring our prior relationship, no need to feel guilty about not being there for her if she needed me, because she finally made it crystal clear that she doesn’t want to return to our prior relationship, and that she doesn’t want me to be there for her now, simple as that. And having her conclusively end the relationship was crushingly painful for me (I’ve probably broken down sobbing 10 times since then), but it’s actually a welcome relief to be able to feel straight up grief instead of all the anxiety I’ve been feeling constantly. At least grief has a somewhat logical course and an anticipated endpoint, while anxiety feels perpetual and churning and endless. Now there’s no more thinking and scheming about how to win her back or say the perfect words, it’s just about accepting the end and moving forward.
One thing that really hurt, and I’m sure folks here will understand better than most, is in her last text she told me something like “it’s pointless to keep talking, because I think we both understand that we’re just friends and nothing happened between us”. That really bothered me – I felt like I was being gaslighted, that she was trying to rewrite history to make me feel like everything that happened was all in my head. I wanted to argue with her, to respond with something like “that’s bulls*** – you know as well as I do that we’re not ‘just friends’, and while nothing happened sexually, the deep connection and the mutual feelings and the thousands of texts and all the long, soul-baring conversations were definitely real and definitely happened – how can you tell me it was all nothing?!?”
But I understand that everyone has to tell themselves the things they need to tell themselves to make it through their day and sleep at night, so if she needs to downplay everything that happened to aid in her own recovery, then I just need to accept that too. And I recognize that it’s a key feature of my limerence that I’m so incredibly caught up on wanting her to love me as much as I love her and to be constantly reassured of that. So I took a deep breath and texted back that I understood completely where she was coming from and would respect her wishes.
I did ask that she promise to not just disappear without saying goodbye on her last day and she agreed that she’d come say goodbye. I don’t know if that means we’ll actually get to sit and talk in private for a bit, or if she just plans on a quick goodbye when we’re in a group of other people – she was vague about it, and I didn’t push her on it. I hope desperately that she’ll grant me a few minutes of real conversation without anyone else around, but I know that she’s gonna do what she’s gonna do and I’ll just have to accept it either way. It’ll hurt like hell if she just leaves without really acknowledging me/us at all, but a year from now it won’t really matter one way or the other, will it?
So sorry LIS, that must have been very painful to hear. But as you say, it is a positive step that gives you the clarity you need to forwards emotionally. Feeling so sad is awful but it is temporary, and is better than mind-churning, exhausting, never-ending uncertainty. You deserve lot self self care right now.
As for what she meant, as you say, she is probably trying to frame things in her own mind in a way that makes her feel OK about herself, and ensures you still think she is a good person. But ultimately this will be one of those many LO mysteries that you must just accept as will forever be a mystery.
Wishing you well.
That is so well said, Allie.
Thank you Allie – I really appreciate you. I was thinking about you saying that I deserve a lot of self care right now. I’ve been thinking a lot recently that I deserve this heartbreak. And we’re both right, you know? I deserve care because I’m a flawed but decent human being who’s trying my best. And at the same time, I deserve all the pain I’m feeling now – I don’t mean “deserve” in the sense of some sort of moral judgement or divine punishment sort of thing, but simply in the sense that it is the inevitable consequence of a series of choices I made and actions I took. I chose, at least semi-willingly, to cross a lot of boundaries and pursue a relationship with a woman other than my wife – there was simply no way this could end without pain for someone. I’m just glad that my wife is sheltered from the pain because she’s the only truly innocent person in this whole situation. I’ve always thought all along that if me and LO are the only people who get our hearts broken, that’s actually the best possible outcome of this situation.
I like the phrase “LO mysteries”. I think that one clue to her feelings and motivations is the last song request she ever gave me. I mentioned before that I had sometimes sent videos of myself playing songs for her on the saxophone, guitar or piano, and sometimes she’d make requests. During one of our last truly intimate conversations in early March, she requested that I learn to play “I Will Always Love You” on the saxophone for her. Listening to the lyrics while learning it, I was brought to tears imaging her saying those words to me:
“If I should stay
I would only be in your way
So I’ll go, but I know
I’ll think of you every step of the way
Bittersweet memories
That is all I’m taking with me
So goodbye, please don’t cry
We both know I’m not what you, you need
I hope life treats you kind
And I hope you have all you’ve dreamed of
And I wish you joy and happiness
But above all this, I wish you love
And I will always love you
I will always love you…”
And a couple days after making that request, she started cutting back contact, and eventually ended the relationship completely. I think she picked that song for a reason…
LIS-
First off- I am sorry you are in pain. Really, truly, sorry.
One thing I am regularly struck by on this site is how everyone’s story with limerence is both unique but also so similar. Although the details of my story are different; I would have described my feelings to be the same. Even some of the conversations you write about are in essence that same conversations I had with my LO.
I think what your LO was saying when she wrote, “it’s pointless to keep talking…” is that you both understand that you can ONLY ever be just friends and nothing CAN ever happened between us.
I think the most painful thing about limerent relationships is that they are both so real, the feeling are the MOST intense, the connection feels ethereal and at the same time there is that aspect of fantasy. Maybe a better way to say it is a relationship that by its nature can never progress into anything more than it is. I am very happily married, and so for me I was astonished how I could want this other person with every cell in my body. The pain of not having them was, as you know, overwhelming.
My guess is she is feeling all of this as well. I imagine she is grieving and recognizes the importance of your relationship. My guess is that you will stay with her in a part of her heart forever, as important people always do. However, she is doing the right thing by breaking it off. She is really doing you a kindness. I mean, yes- she is gaslighting you- but at the same time, I imagine you can see right through that. She probably knows you can see right through it. She may also want to hurt you as she herself is hurting. Maybe it is easier to lie?
My LO ghosted me in the end. He was equally infatuated by our relationship and heartbroken by the futility of things (he is also happily married.) I was so ANGRY at him for cutting me out. I begged him to talk to me, but he just never responded. I now see this as a gift… I just couldn’t break things off despite trying many times. I miss him and sometime wish we could just step out of time and the real world to be with each other just a little bit more- but of course, I know that can’t happen.
Whether you get that one last goodbye with her or not, it is going to be painful. It is going to probably get worse (you PROBABLY already know that.) I suspect that you will actually begin to heal more quickly if you do not get to have that one last meaningful conversation. However, I would never in a million years have wanted that for myself- so I get it.
As for it not mattering in a year- I disagree. I know you are referring to the goodbye- but I am thinking about it more big picture. This relationship will always matter- for both of you. But how it impacts your life in the long run is yet to be seen. Your understanding of the relationship and why/how it happened when it did will evolve.
LIS- one thing I have noticed about you is how incredibly perceptive you are about relationships, your wife and yourself. At some point, I think you will be able to look back at this time without pain but with greater insight.
That is always what I hope for with everyone on this site. It is what I hope for myself.
Hang in there. Ask for support when you need it. My new-age-y friend always says, “sending you healing energy” when I am down. So I am sending crystal colored energy your way.
“Your understanding of the relationship and why/how it happened when it did will evolve.”
I remember first finding this place and people saying that limerence can be a learning experience and something that if it plays out right can actually strengthen an existing relationship. I couldn’t imagine that the torture of limerence would be a teaching lesson.
But it is. First, why one were susceptible to limerence in the first place will tell you a lot about your current relationship(s). I let myself getting settled into my marriage instead of actively trying to keep it alive. Instead of first bringing LO to the table as an early possible issue for me with my wife BEFORE it got to where it did I just embraced it. Those are all faults on my part, not my wife and not LO.
Despite realizing all these things about myself and my limerence when months had went by and I hadn’t heard from LO after she left I too could relate but in a different way to …
“I was so ANGRY at him for cutting me out. I begged him to talk to me, but he just never responded.”
My came through written pleas in various ways. I knew that she wouldn’t contact me after she left. I got angry with myself for being so weak and needy. I got angry with myself for seeing something that wasn’t there. I just got angry at myself in general. LO could do no wrong and at some level the situation didn’t play out right because of me. I couldn’t blame LO and I couldn’t blame my wife for any of it. Hating myself for hurting two women that mean so much to me was much easier of a punishment than blaming either of them.
I am making steps to repair the damage I did to my wife and our marriage. I don’t know how LO feels. I sometimes wonder. Most of my intrusive thoughts are that she left because of me. That I hurt what could have been an otherwise healthy relationship with her because of this damn limerence. Hating myself isn’t anything new to me, and it is going to continue until I can come to terms with what I did.
Summer – thank you so much for those words. They brought me to tears (but in a good way). I’m so sorry for all the pain that you had to go through as well. As you said in a previous post, it really does help to hear other peoples’ experiences to feel like we’re not so alone
“My guess is that you will stay with her in a part of her heart forever, as important people always do” – that is very beautiful and I hope so very much that it’s true. That’s my main hope, that in the future she’ll look back on me with fondness, and that her life will somehow be richer for having shared a little bit of it with me for this too-brief period of time. And I know it’s way to soon to tell how this will affect me in the future, but I can only imagine you’re right that the relationship will always matter and that someday I’ll be able to look back on it with insight and without the pain (or at least with just a dull ache and bittersweet feelings)
LIS-
Sometimes I go back and forth over whether I wish my LO had reentered my life when he did. My LO was an ex from my 20s. Someone I had an extremely volatile and passionate relationship with. I met my husband soon after my LO and I (finally) broke up. I always said the purpose of that relationship was that I would be able to recognize the qualities in a partner that I did not want. My husband is very different than my LO, (in the best of ways) and I am thankful, beyond thankful that I ended up with him and built the life that we share. I would never, ever, ever wish away my marriage. Even in my deepest of fantasies, I never would want to be married to anyone other than my husband. But…
My LO came into my life this second time around under crazy circumstances. Although my limerence for him played out pretty much in a textbook fashion, the reason why we were reconnected is a story unlike any I have ever heard. (I don’t feel comfortable talking about it here.) It didn’t feel like it was fate that we reconnected, but it did feel unbelievable to get a glimpse into the person he had evolved into. I also felt like I was reliving my 20s- but also with all the confidence of my 40s. It was intoxicating.
Anyway- my limerence evolved from euphoria to anxiety to despair- same old story. Then, as I wrote earlier- he ghosted me- but that was after I lashed out at him. I never disclosed to him, and I guilted him out for disclosing to me. (This is one reason why I relate to your LO gaslighting you. I pretty much did the same thing. Actually, if I’m being honest, I was worse. I am not proud of it…)
As you can imagine- there is more to the story- but I would say in general, I was not acting at my best. Not by a long shot. Nor was he. I don’t think my LO or I am bad people, but we are bad together.
Anyway- that was many months ago now. I still think about him often, but the pain gets less and less. The LE has forced me to think about a number of things in my life. I wish the circumstances that brought us together hadn’t happened, but I don’t regret knowing him a second time. Sometimes I say that I do… but not really.
I don’t think I would wish away the time we were in contact. It’s hard to fully explain… but he is just important to me, even though I know we can not and should not be in contact. Also- I just like my LO. I like the person he is, even though we are pretty toxic together. I am glad he is out there in the world. I imagine at some point, I will be able to think about him with out missing him. I don’t think we could ever be friends, but I like to think that I have impacted his life.
I’m mainly sharing this because it is cathartic to tell our stories, not because I have any great advice. I’ve been thinking about your LO today. Of course, I don’t know her at all. Anything I might think is purely conjecture, but I can relate acting out at the end of an LE.
I do think you need to be gentle to yourself. Sure- your actions brought on this pain- but so what? You are paying the price. It’s ok to cut yourself some slack. Being kind to yourself isn’t going to change the situation for anyone else.
I look back at the end of my EA, and I can forgive both myself and my LO. I understand why that we were mainly acting out of desperation, but also out of resolve to change a hopeless situation. I’m not proud of my behavior, but I have stopped contacting him and am in the process of getting back to normal. I also truly wish him and his family well. I want him to be happy, too.
I think this is a really good article. I imagine a number of people on this site will disagree with her arguments, but I found it rang true. At the very least, it is an interesting read.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/why-happy-people-cheat/537882/
I hope you are doing as ok as you could be under the circumstances.
Summer – thank you for sharing more of your story. It sounds like a very intense time in your life, and it seems that you’ve achieved a lot of hard-earned insight and perspective. I’m glad that you can think about your LO and the time you spent in contact with each other in a mostly positive light despite the heartbreak and pain, and I’m glad that you are able to experience happiness in your marriage as well.
It’s so strange, isn’t it, how possible it is to be overall happy and content in a marriage and to really truly love your SO, but at the same time be so powerfully drawn to another person. It seems like those two things should be mutually exclusive, but they just aren’t, at least for people like us. Tonight I was at work crying alone in my office thinking about LO, and then like 30 minutes later I was at home snuggling my SO talking about our days, and both of those experiences felt completely authentic and real.
Thanks also for the link to that article. I remember reading it a few months back when I was reading all sorts of things trying to figure out what was going on with me. I had briefly considering sending it to LO to see what she thought about it, but then decided I better not…
Your story makes me appreciate how kindly my LO is acting in reality. Yes, I feel heartbroken about the end of the relationship, and yes that phrase in her last text hurt a lot, but I truly don’t think she meant anything harmful by it and it certainly doesn’t undo everything else. The remarkable thing is that throughout all the excitement and then anxiety and pain in our relationship, neither of us has actually ever spoken a single harsh or unkind word to the other. Even in these last weeks, our work relationship has remained completely cordial and friendly, and in fact we both go out of our way to try to make things easier for each other at work. Really, the only thing she ever did that hurt me was decide that she couldn’t carry on any longer in a relationship with a married man because it was hurting her too much – and there’s nothing wrong with that! In fact it’s exactly the right thing for her to do, and I really respect her for it.
The funny thing is, I’ve come to realize that my LO actually has a reputation at work as someone who can be kind of hard to know and hard to get along with – she’s pretty private and reserved and can be abrupt or even confrontational with people who rub her the wrong way. She’d be the first to tell you that she gets triggered easily and lashes out at people when she perceives them treating her badly, and she’s made enemies among co-workers and actually generated quite a few complaints from clients. But in the 6 years I’ve known her, and in particular during these tumultuous last 6 months, I’ve only personally experienced her to be kind, polite, friendly and sweet, and we’ve always just gotten along really well. I don’t know if we’re just really compatible, or if she’s always intentionally made sure to show her best side for me, or if I somehow bring out her best, but regardless, I do need to really stop and appreciate how good she’s always been to me even when she’s hurting. She easily could have lashed out at me many times and it would have been totally understandable if she had done so, but she hasn’t and I really appreciate that.
I know that I’ve broken her heart, just like she broke mine. I’ve seen her trying to hold back tears when she’s seen me around the office, I’ve seen the pain in her eyes when we’ve made eye contact during periods of no-contact, and she’s straight up told me repeatedly how she’s cried thinking about how we can’t be together. It’s amazing to think how much pain we’ve managed to cause each other while only wanting good things for each other. But we’re both committed to being as kind to each other as possible right up to the end, and that’s actually a really nice thing that I know I’m fortunate to experience
Summer,
I read the article. It’s probably one of the most comprehensive set of explanations I’ve seen but I didn’t see a lot new in it. Ok, modern marriage isn’t what it was centuries or even decades ago.
Everybody has their own definition of infidelity. Mine is when a party acts outside of a mutually accepted and understood boundary of what they consider being faithful is. In college, I was the affair partner with LO #1. She expected to get engaged the following summer. She said that when she was with me, she felt like she was cheating on him. She was. When my wife got married, it turned out we had different ideas of where that boundary was and her bar was a lot higher than mine.
A few things caught my eye.
The first was that when someone came in for infidelity and the partner knew it, that marriage was over. The question was can you have a second marriage with the same partner under new parameters? Some couples can, some couples can’t. In some jurisdictions, infidelity can carry some hefty sanctions.
Another was that infidelity as a road to self-enlightenment often comes at someone else’s expense. The cheater is making a conscious decision which may be beneficial but the betrayed didn’t. Some partners can get past it, some can’t.
The example the author used of Priya’s affair feeling like HS and perhaps living part of her youth that she didn’t experience reminded me of something my twice-divorced father told me.
He recommended that I not marry a virgin. He said that way, she’d never wonder what another man would be like and be tempted to act on it. He said my mother was a virgin. He told me mother mother cheated on him and family rumors of my mother’s indiscretions rose to the level of my paternity. I think I vaguely remember a guy who could have been an affair partner. His name was Armando. I married a virgin but it wasn’t by design.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/tipping-points-in-a-limerence-affair/
Thanks for sharing your story Summer. And that article, a fascinating read. One could replace “affair” with limerence really as I think LEs can play exactly the same role.
My LE absolutely reconnected me with my more youthful, fun and energetic self. That version of me died for while as a result of becoming a parent and wife. It felt good to have that re-awakening for a while.
I loved this line especially “When we select a partner, we commit to a story. Yet we remain forever curious: What other stories could we have been part of? Affairs (or LEs) offer us a view of those other lives, a peek at the stranger within. Adultery (or an LE) is the revenge of the deserted possibilities.”. So true.
I don’t believe there is any limit on the number of people you can love wholeheartedly at the same time. I did not love my first child any less when a fell in love with my second.
The real relationship limiting factor is our time and resources!
Allie1,
“The real relationship limiting factor is our time and resources!”
And, if you’re in a committed relationship, an SO who’s willing to acquiesce to their partner seeking whatever outside the marriage. Lovisa is operating under nearly ideal conditions. Her husband doesn’t mind her dipping her toes in limerence. She’s directing the perceived benefits toward him, at least for now. And, she has LOs who aren’t pushing boundaries. It doesn’t get much better than that. But, she’s only in control of one of those.
As for the example of your kids, I think you’re comparing apples to oranges:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/love-and-limerence-part-one/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/love-and-limerence-part-two/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-science-of-love/
“I did not love my first child any less when a fell in love with my second.”
And, in reality, a lot of parents don’t love their children equally. They play favorites and make no bones about it. Just ask any adult who had to grow up with, “Why can’t you be more like your [fill in blank]?
One of my best friends asked if I still loved LO #2. I said “Probably. How do you unlove someone that you ever genuinely loved?” I will probably always love LO #2. But, I came to terms a long time ago that we’d never be together and I committed to another woman.
Lesson learned: Sometimes, love isn’t enough.
Hi Allie1-
The article is interesting, isn’t it?
I don’t think I have said this earlier, but my LO (an ex) and I connected (20 years later) over a truly traumatic (in the present) experience. It was complicated and pretty horrible for both of us- but especially me. That was the beginning of how we connected and then things ran from there.
The article really spoke to me because I honestly have a wonderful, fulfilling partnership. It’s not just that I love my husband- I love my marriage. I told two friends about my LE at the time. One friend kept saying that she thought I was having these feelings because I was bored with my life, or I had some unrevealed issues with my husband… and I felt like- that really isn’t it. Now it seems glaringly obvious that the LE was a result of the traumatic experience. I know I would have never let me guard down (especially around an ex) if I wasn’t so upset. There was a bit of a savior complex thrown in to really add fuel to the fire.
“When we select a partner, we commit to a story. Yet we remain forever curious: What other stories could we have been part of? Affairs (or LEs) offer us a view of those other lives, a peek at the stranger within. Adultery (or an LE) is the revenge of the deserted possibilities.”
I think this is why limerence often hits around middle age. How could you not be curious about how your life could have turned out had things gone differently? I remember reading about a study that was saying your middle life (maybe like late 40s and 50?) is the hardest time in life because it feels like there are less possibilities than when you are younger. Then once you get past this age you feel a contentment about the choices you made. I am sure I am getting some of the details wrong- but I think that is the gist.
It reminds me of my LE. In the thick of those days I felt so much yearning and discontentment. Now that some time has passed… I am soooo glad things didn’t go further than they did. I am grateful for the life that didn’t explode in my face…
“My LE absolutely reconnected me with my more youthful, fun and energetic self. That version of me died for while as a result of becoming a parent and wife. It felt good to have that re-awakening for a while.”
Yup. I had similar feelings. In retrospect, I also see that it “re-awakened” sneaky, manipulative and obsessive behavior. Traits that I think were more pronounced when I was younger. When I started erasing my text chain with LO I knew something was very wrong. I have never felt like I needed to hide anything from my husband… That was the beginning of things turning for me.
Allie1- I am curious- based on your earlier comments would an open marriage ever be something on the table for you and your SO? That seems very tricky to me, but I do know at least one person who seems to be happy. Is that something you have thought of?
Feel free to not answer if that is too personal a question!
LIS, hoping this is the start of true healing for you and you can move past this LE. I’m wishing you the best in these final days as I’m sure it will be very hard.
“But I understand that everyone has to tell themselves the things they need to tell themselves to make it through their day and sleep at night, so if she needs to downplay everything that happened to aid in her own recovery, then I just need to accept that too. ”
It was really difficult for me to finally grasp that something that I thought was there, wasn’t there. I was expecting some kind of rom-com goodbye at the end of her last day. But it was the limerent effort that was trying to make something what it wasn’t. LO just saw me as a co-worker, possibly friend. So her walking out of that building and getting into her truck with just a “goodbye Adam” wasn’t …. well it was a normal goodbye which was the amount of effort to her that was expected in that situation.
In hindsight one of the most manipulative aspects of limerence is how easily it distorts your perspective on almost everything. Even sometimes the effort we think we are getting from LO until the situation changes and you all of sudden are wondering why LO is acting so distant.
LO was a very sweet lady to everyone. Her normal behavior started to get distorted by my limerence. I started seeing things that weren’t really reality. I mean what person isn’t thankful for free donuts? Why did her “thank you Adam” ring so much louder than anyone else’s “thank you”? Why did I subconsciously remember LO’s favorite kind of donuts and always make sure to get them?
And then the worst realization …. did LO realize she was getting special treatment? And if she did, did she let it continue because she enjoyed it? It’s a lot like getting “settled” in marriage. Did LO always give me just enough grace for me to continue giving her special treatment? Because she knew she could always keep me wrapped around her finger? I don’t know. But a year later from seeing her in my head I still give her the benefit of the doubt. Because I can’t imagine her being manipulative because of this damn limerent brain. Anybody know how to do lobotomies?
These are really good questions Adam, you are getting to the heart of it.
“It was really difficult for me to finally grasp that something that I thought was there, wasn’t there.”
That moment is just breathtaking. I think it is an essential step in getting over limerence. Before that, it was “we had something special, but I have to give it up because of [barrier], but it WAS something extraordinary, and if [barrier] hadn’t been there, we would have to most amazing relationship together.” After that you are like, wait, it was just (at most) an ordinary friendship/work relationship, and it wasn’t special. And OMG I made it up in my mind, how mortifying. Then you really need to ask the hard questions of what drove you to make such an astounding leap where someone saying thank you for donuts or anything delivered with a smile, is more than good manners and pleasantry.
“And then the worst realization …. did LO realize she was getting special treatment? And if she did, did she let it continue because she enjoyed it?”
I’m experiencing this too. Was my beloved LO, who I thought was such a sweet, innocent, helpless and lonely person … actually a player? (sub for you, an extremely friendly-to-everyone person) And did they actually know I liked them and they kept me on the hook? Like you, I still want to give LO the benefit of the doubt, and it could be they just enjoyed some validation (who doesn’t), but the fact that I (and you) would even consider that we may have been a little manipulated, is in fact progress. For some people, idealization can take various forms – for me the goodness of my LO was pretty important. That I might even consider that LO is not totally good is … putting him back on earth, off the pedestal. That is a pretty big step.
“That moment is just breathtaking.”
I had an hour and half drive home on LO’s last day. Somewhere along the way home, the realization that the reason she could walk away with just a “goodbye” was either because it was just an ordinary workplace relationship or she got what she wanted out of me and was ready to move on with this other man. And I immediately hated myself for thinking of LO as the later. I hated to think LO was nothing less of an angel.
But at some point in that drive I had to admit it was a possibility. And we all have done that to a point. If I am sick and my wife wants to mother me, well damn I’m gonna let her lol even if I am capable to do it myself. But it is almost agonizing to even for an instant to think that LO didn’t deserve that pedestal and was any degree of manipulative.
But I am getting there. If for no other reason than I have a lot of support from my wife who has chosen to help me deal with this at my side. Sometimes when something does remind me of LO there isn’t always this warm feeling with that memory. Sometimes it’s the realization that I need to think of something else. Memories of LO are starting to be more normalized like when have memories of other people I have known surface.
I don’t think I am 100% through it but I feel I am making some progress. I had an intrusive thought of LO over the weekend and my wife held me and comforted me through it even though I was thinking about another woman. And she could have any other varying degree of righteous reactions to that. But she chose love and understanding, and if anything is going to get me out of this LE it’s going to be her. And I am so thankful and undeserving of her.
LIS,
I agree with Allie1.
You have a mountain of evidence to support that it was more than nothing.
I’ve heard something similar twice in my life.
The first time, I told LO #1 “I love you, too. Doesn’t that count for anything?” Her reply was, “I can’t let it.”
The second time, I had a ton of correspondence with LO #4 that supported more than nothing. However, she reached out when she was in crisis and because of where my marriage was, I took that and ran with it. Had those two conditions not been met, I don’t know if LO #4 and I would have ever connected on that level. If I hadn’t disclosed to her, a lot of things would have played out differently.
There were a few things in LO #4’s goodbye that I could have challenged her on but, the way she phrased things would have only made her position stronger and the goal was to get away from her. So, I didn’t challenge her. I felt like I’d been dumped by a woman I never actually met.
Will it matter a year from now? It shouldn’t but it might. It depends on if you can start getting past it and if she decides to circle back. Some LO’s do. I find it better if LOs leave by their own volition but it’s no guarantee that they’ll stay gone. It’s another facet of limerence that’s outside our control. What we control is what our response is if they do.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-los-return/,
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-los-return-part-two/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/los-who-wont-let-go/
In my experience, if they’re coming back, women I’ve thought were gone cycle back through within 6 months, usually closer to 3 months. LO #2 showed up 25 years later but we were together 4 years and I asked her to marry me so she’s not typical.
I think it’s roughly the same for us. If we can maintain NC for 3 months, we have a really good chance. 6 months, and we’re pretty much home free. After that, you can still get knocked off the rails but something would have to trigger it.
This is a loss and it’s ok to mourn it. If you use the search box and look for “grief,” you’ll get a bunch of hits.
LE – “You have a mountain of evidence to support that it was more than nothing”
One thing that’s been so disorienting about this experience is that aside from my posts on this site, there is no record whatsoever of everything that happened with LO and I. We deleted our texts daily. I don’t have a single photo of her. She is one of the rare people who doesn’t do any social media so we’re not friends on any social media apps. Once she’s gone from the workplace, I’ll literally have nothing tangible from this intense period in my life. It’s a real head trip, and it’s had me doubting my own memories at times, like “did all of this really happen? Or was it all in my head?” I think that will ultimately be helpful in getting over this experience, but I think in the short term it intensifies the grief of her anticipated departure, because when she leaves the workplace she’ll literally vanish from my life completely (unless as you said she circles back someday).
“The first time, I told LO #1 “I love you, too. Doesn’t that count for anything?” Her reply was, ‘I can’t let it.'”
If I had to guess, I think that’s exactly where my LO is at right now – she’s made up her mind to do the right thing no matter what she actually feels inside, so she’s making a point of not acknowledging her feelings any more.
Good for her. As much as it hurts, I respect her greatly for her strength and commitment to doing the right thing.
Hi Lost in Space, I’m sorry she minimized your experience. It’s like she erased all the good stuff. I don’t think she’s trying to make it hard for you, I think she is trying to do the right thing. Oh my, that is painful.
LIS,
Let’s take a look at a few questions:
1. What would be your perfect “goodbye,” i.e., what do you want to her from your LO?
2. What will you do with that knowledge if you had it?
It sounds like you’re looking for some acknowledgment that had you two not been in relationships, things might have taken off for you two. Getting that acknowledgment is an insidious trap.
When I disclosed to LO #4, she said, “Wow! I had no idea! I’m flattered and, under different circumstances, I might even be curious.” What did that offer me? It offered hope. The implication was that if circumstances ever changed she might give me a shot. When it became clear to her that circumstances weren’t going to change, at least not in the near term, she threw the flag. I guess if I ever came back on the market, I could see if she still felt that way. But, after this much time, it would just look lame.
If you want to end the LE and move on, you want to kill off hope. https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-death-of-hope/
You don’t want any reason to ruminate on “What if?” LO #2 blinked after 25 years, assuming that her FB request wasn’t an accident. I blinked after 3 years with LO #4. LO #4 made a tacit acknowledgment of it on her professional FB page but she never responded directly. That was 4 years ago.
It’s been 15 months since my last social media drive-bye of any of my XLOs. Most days, it seems like forever ago. Some days, it seems like yesterday. I still remember the last time I logged into FB on my wife’s account so I could check out LO #4. Looking at her page didn’t do me any favors.
It should eventually get better but you have to want it to. Don’t change your mind and push her. I don’t think it would do either of you any good.
I think that me and her are trying to frame this experience in different ways in our own minds. She wants to minimize it – no doubt related to the internal tension arising from her sudden pivot from being the aggrieved partner in her ex-husband’s affair to being The Other Woman in our emotional affair. I know that created a ton of discomfort within her psyche that got harder and harder to ignore as time went on, so logically it would make sense for her to try to minimize the experience, to tell herself that it was never actually an emotional affair – at most it was maybe just a friendship that got a little too close for awhile.
I’m more confused by my own motivations. I should also be feeling shame and guilt and psychic discomfort about the experience and should also want to be minimizing it, but so far it’s been the opposite for me. I find that I desperately want this experience to have meaning. I find myself wanting to frame it as a tragic love story about two people who were meant for each other, who for a short while loved each other madly and deeply and were only prevented from being together because of circumstances beyond their control.
Of course, the truth lies somewhere in between those two versions. It wasn’t nothing – we did have some really strong feelings for each other and a deep sense of connection, and anyone who knows the details could only describe it as a pretty intense emotional affair. But I know (thanks in part to this site) that it also wasn’t a pre-destined, magical love story for the ages, but instead was a more mundane story about two people with unmet needs and mutual attraction who opened up to each other, got flooded with a bunch of neurochemicals, faced some difficult decisions, and ultimately stepped back from the ledge.
And so if we do have one last meaningful conversation, I honestly don’t know how it’ll go, because the framing she’s pursuing and the framing that I’m clinging to are incompatible with each other. She’s likely going to want to keep it light and breezy and quick, and I’m going to want a big emotional production with beautiful speeches and lots of tears tears and mutual declarations of love. And honestly I know that the version she’s going for actually makes a lot more sense and probably would be better for both of us, so I think what I’m going to do when the day comes is just follow her lead and try not to push anything on her. Because the worst thing that could happen is that I push some heavy feelings onto her during our last meeting and she gets angry with me or just shuts down completely and stonewalls me, and then my last memory of her would end up being overtly negative rather than just underwhelming and unfulfilling.
As for the future, I’m not sure. I have in mind that I’d like to leave things in a way that she might call me in a few months to say hey and catch up, or that if I decided to text her someday she’d be happy to hear from me and would write back. She doesn’t do social media and we don’t have any mutual friends, so unless one of us directly contacts the other one in the future, I’ll never have any idea how her life turned out, and I would really like to know how things turn out for her. I actually have a little contact with all of my other prior LOs – I’m facebook friends with LO1 and see her posts on my feed occasionally, me and my family get together with LO2 and her family maybe once a year to hang out, and LO3 texted me last month to chat and catch up and that was kinda nice and didn’t trigger anything. Of course, none of those other limerence experiences involved disclosure or mutual feelings (as far as I know), so it’s pretty different with LO4. But for now, I’d still like to imagine that perhaps we could get to a point where we chat twice a year and not have to imagine saying goodbye completely and forever.
“It’s ok to cut yourself some slack. Being kind to yourself isn’t going to change the situation for anyone else.”
Summer
I have a hard time accepting this. To me being “kind” to myself is accepting what I did was “okay”. That if this comes out in the end, positive, or even strengthens our marriage commitment, then it is saying it is okay that I let this woman reside in my head for going on two years now. It was okay the special treatment, almost flirtatious attention I gave her is “okay”. To me this whole damn limerence is a perfect example of the ends not justifying the means. It’s like driving drunk and running someone over before you get sober.
I find beating myself up cathartic. If my wife sees I feel guilt and remorse and hate for my own actions that maybe she can forgive me. I can’t ask her to forget. Truthfully I can’t even ask her to forgive. I obviously crossed lines and broke through boundaries that she is not okay with. The entirety of this matter is on me. Not her. Not LO. I am at their grace. How can I be “kind” to myself?
“He recommended that I not marry a virgin. He said that way, she’d never wonder what another man would be like and be tempted to act on it.”
L.E.
I never thought about this. Though my thoughts of LO were rarely sexual, especially the more I got to know her as a person. But I wonder if even subconsciously this was a factor being that my wife is my one and only. But then, other than the usually ebb and tide, I am very satisfied of our sex life in 23 years and really never thought that was a factor in my limerence. Sure I’ve seen women that are tempting as any man or woman might have a passing thought of. But if and when I ever did have such a thought of LO it was in the imaginary setting of being single and not at the expense of my marriage.
Hi Adam-
Sorry- I am just seeing this now. Busy day at work. Sometimes it is hard to keep track of the conversation threads!
Based on your earlier comments, I can see why this might be hard to accept for yourself. One thing I ask myself often is what am I gaining from an emotion. Like if I have been really angry or obsessing about something, I ask myself why I’m not letting myself move on. For example, sometimes it lets me take the moral highroad when really I have had a part in a situation. I’m not sure I am fully explaining, however I think you just explained pretty clearly what you are “gaining” by continuing to feel guilt over your LO.
“If my wife sees I feel guilt and remorse and hate for my own actions that maybe she can forgive me.”
I wonder if your wife feels the same way. Is this her path towards forgiveness? Do you think your guilt about your LO hides other issues that might be worth looking at? Do you think the guilt makes you a better husband?
By the way- these are real questions. I don’t assume to know what your wife or you might be feeling.
I think guilt can be a very helpful emotion. It definitively stopped me from pursuing things further with my LO. But I also think there is a limit to guilt’s helpfulness. For me at least, (I’m not talking about anyone else’s experience) there comes a point where the guilt can obstruct making meaningful changes. The two emotions that I can really wallow in are guilt and anger.
Last off- I think there is a difference from being accountable for ones’ actions and feelings and constantly being hard on oneself. I think LIS is being accountable. He recognizes the damage his LE has had on himself and LO. I don’t think I was saying what happened was a good thing. I’m mainly saying the next few months are going to be really rough. My hope is that he will be able to move through this time and move through his feelings of limerence. I personally am not able to give my husband and children the attention they deserve/need when I am falling apart. So I say, be gentle so that you can show up for your family and (eventually) lean into living a purposeful life.
I also don’t think an emotional affair makes someone a “bad person.” It’s not great. It can cause a lot of damage. It’s worth avoiding. But it happens- as this website is proof of. For me, it’s- ok- now what? Life is going to continue so how am I going to change from this experience. If I know my actions were unacceptable, what do I need to do to make sure this doesn’t happen again.
At least, it has been helpful for me to see things in this light- but I do recognize that everyone’s experience is different.
Thank you as always for sharing your thoughts.
“One thing I ask myself often is what am I gaining from an emotion.”
Summer, I was thinking about this most of the evening (and your whole comment in general) through the evening. I read this just as I about to leave work yesterday. And I think if I were to ask what I am gaining from this emotion of guilt is punishment. I think keeping the guilt in front of me is me punishing myself for limerence and LO.
One thing that I have done well in most of my life is that I have been able to control and keep my emotions in check and do the right thing or the thing most socially acceptable. But I didn’t with LO. I let these crazy, but amazing feeling, emotions dictate my actions. And to an unacceptable extreme. I let them justify my actions and words. I hid them (or tried to successfully do so) from observers, including my wife. But people still saw it. And my wife was one of them. She watched/listened at me and could tell that something was going on in my head when it came to LO. Imagine your spouse speaking more highly of another man/woman than you. She could see it in me and hear it in my words.
“I wonder if your wife feels the same way. Is this her path towards forgiveness? ”
I don’t think she wants to see me beat myself up about this. I think more than anything she wants to see accountability that it doesn’t happen again and change in my behavior and thoughts towards LO. An example; she told me one time that she was afraid to share music with me now. I asked her to elaborate. She said that she’s not sure what I will think of if she were to share a song with me. Would it be a song of her’s or a song of LO’s if I ended up liking it. I guess she is worried that a love song that she likes that reminds her of me might trigger me thinking about LO and not her.
I think she is willing to forgive me if it can go back to the way it was? She firmly said she is willing to stay. She does not want divorce or separation. So I guess that means she has some level of faith I can overcome this limerence. Now the return to “the way it was” when it comes to intimacy and displays of love will be a much longer road for her to travel, I think. I think that is going to be the highest price I will pay for this. And I am not even entirely sure it will go back to the way it was 100% ever.
“Do you think your guilt about your LO hides other issues that might be worth looking at?”
Within our marriage? I don’t think so. I think this guilt is more about me. I know it’s human but I have kept urges under control mostly. We’ve had one or two other instances, but we both were able to nip them in the bud before it got blown up to the extent of limerence. I think the issue of guilt is thoughts I have never had about another woman other than my wife until LO make me feel ashamed. And I looked my wife in eye and said it wasn’t an EA at any point. Which might have escalated the whole situation from simple infatuation/crush to limerence. I feel like if I could have corrected my thoughts early on it wouldn’t have even gotten to limerence. But I am not so sure anymore that it didn’t start out or end up as a EA. Even if it was only one sided.
“Do you think the guilt makes you a better husband?”
I don’t know about better per say. But the outward display of guilt is a way of apology to her. Like a peacock making an outward display to get attention. I am trying to say what I can’t with words. You can only say “I’m sorry” so many times when the subject comes up. The guilt helps me show her that I really an sorry, and I am trying despite not being 100% out of this still.
“So I say, be gentle so that you can show up for your family and (eventually) lean into living a purposeful life.”
I know this has effected my whole family not just my wife. Last visit to our oldest in college he wanted to talk to us, and kept repeating “to check in on each other daily” and that he “loved us” but when summer came he said he didn’t want to stay at home until the next semester with us because of “the way we are now” as a family. He may not know what happened but he’s perceptive enough to see something is different between his mother and I.
I can see what you are saying about the guilt obstructing meaningful change. If I am too preoccupied with punishing myself, I can’t be there and present for my family in the way I need to. I have to find a way to break the cycle and make forward progress.
Thank you for making me think on this and try to come up with answers to how I can move forward purposefully Summer. It’s been very helpful.
Hi Adam,
I meant to respond to you yesterday, but time got away from me. Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I have really been thinking a lot about what you said here and also in some other posts.
Here are some of the things I have been wondering about.
“I don’t think she wants to see me beat myself up about this… she wants to see accountability that it doesn’t happen again and change in my behavior and thoughts towards LO.”
A few things about this. One- your wife doesn’t want you to continue to beat yourself up. If this is really the case all of the guilty feelings are not for her. You “beating” yourself up is not something your wife is asking for. Here is a totally different analogy. I really hate getting presents. I just don’t like it unless they are the kid homemade kind. My husband knows this about me and knows if he got me an elaborate present it would actually annoy me because it would be like he wasn’t respecting what I really like/enjoy. On the flip side, he knows that I love to pick out things together for our house or look at art in a gallery. So that’s the type of thing we do for birthdays or anniversaries. I love it because my husband is doing something that he knows I am going to enjoy- also he knows I would prefer to spend the afternoon with him than get a present.
Ok- getting back to your wife. I think you need to talk to her more about how she feels about your feelings of guilt. If she says, “actually it is starting to frustrate me, and I am ready to move on.” that would be good information to have. If she says, “yes, when you talk about your guilt it makes me feel better, then that would be good information, too.” Either way, if you are staying guilty because it is proof of your repentance, I think you need to be sure you are really doing that for your wife and not for yourself.
Second thought!
“to see accountability that it doesn’t happen again and change in my behavior and thoughts towards LO.”
I’m not really sure how much more accountable you can be. You fully admit you had a relationship that crossed your definition of an accountable relationship.
What behavior (other than intrusive thoughts- which I will get to later) are you referring to? You are getting close to a year of NC. I’m not sure what actual behaviors you are doing that would need stop. Am I missing something?
The last thing is intrusive thoughts. Here is what I am concerned about for you. What if perpetuating the guilt is actually not letting you get over having intrusive thoughts? What if in order to actually stop thinking about LO you need to forgive yourself and move on?
Adam, (and PLEASE do not take this in a bad way- not at all!!!) but I have been stuck by the depths of your longing, intrusive thoughts and guilt after being NC for such a long time. It doesn’t seem to follow the pattern of most people on this site. Also- and I know we just don’t agree on this- but on the scale of having an affair with another woman- I would say your LE was not actually morally wrong. As far as I can see, you were a good friend to your LO. She appreciated the support around a bad divorce, enjoyed your company, appreciated the help with work… but it doesn’t sound like you really crossed major boundaries with her. I think most people would agree that relatively speaking you didn’t do anything that bad.
I have thought a lot about how I would feel if my husband was limerent for another women. I would be hurt and unhappy about it. But I know I would be able to move on if he truly wanted to stay with me and be present in our relationship.
Now- in some ways- I know my value system doesn’t matter. If you crossed your own internal boundary or your wife’s then that is important. But at this point, I think you need to figure out why the intrusive thoughts aren’t fading.
It is hard for me to explain this- but I wonder if you are unconsciously leaning into the guilt as a way to not letting go of your LO or the intrusive thoughts. I KNOW how much you love your wife and really want to do right by her. What if doing right by her is actually healing some of these feelings?
There is this great podcast about happiness and intrusive thoughts. Here it is on youtube, but I listened to it through Spotify. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AFkztBhUiI
It’s not directly about limerence, but it is really good!
I hope you are doing well! I was missing my LO and feeling really down today. I had something funny I wanted to share with him but know that I can’t. It’s a hard road.
Summer, I do have Adam’s blessing to post here, just wanted to say that first off.
I’ve asked him, sometimes begged, several times to please not stew in this guilt, I don’t need or want him to put on a cilice or flagellate himself or drink himself into oblivion over this.
I want him to work through it and I will do what I can to help, even if I don’t understand limerance and I may have times of being peeved. I definitely do understand having a brain that short circuits for lack of a better term.
~~~~~
He won’t disclose some information because even with my permission he feels it’s not his place, and some information or backstory is so necessary to all of this (I honestly feel like I’m someone’s first listen to Yellow Ledbetter and I’ve been cast into a cold unfeeling wench that’s been out for punishment for years – there’s things that are the reason for me to go into myself).
I was diagnosed with Rapid Cycling Bipolar 1, PTSD (many issues go into that and I will talk about it if someone asks), and severe anxiety in 2009 after I voluntarily checked myself into a Psychiatric hospital. I do take a medicine cocktail although I’ve had to stop one because I developed an allergy to it, I’ve had years of therapy, I understand intrusive thoughts more than I’d like, even if mine are more nightmarish or extremely unpleasant and I can help him work through those when he tells me. Just like the other night when it was happening to him and I grabbed him into a tight hug and told him to hold on to me and then diverted his brain by telling him other things because that’s what I’ve learned to do with mine. Sometimes my mental illnesses can be a very dark and ugly path to navigate.
I, again with permission, can actually read and feel his disgust and anger at me in his early posts, because I know my husband well. Some are things that have been put out of proportion and some need the backstory to even make sense. It’s like only half a book.
I *do not hate* his LO, I didn’t *refuse* to go meet her I’d busted my head open earlier in the year (unknown if it was a seizure or I’d just passed out in our kitchen, I woke up in our bed with blood all over my pillow and a raging headache) and it took forever to heal, the concussion and the whacked out shoulder didn’t help either, I didn’t want to be in a vehicle or around a number of people… I may not be her biggest fan as I work through this from this end, I may hate some of what I know, but as I told Adam the stuff she went through, that snapped his rescue complex on (and yes, he has one and I’ve known that for 24 years… it goes beyond just being a true gentleman sometimes), I was and will be on her side and go to the mat for it, because it’s stuff that makes the Mama bear roar loud in me. I do not like the fact that he was willing to jeopardize his job for her (I know his boss, not a high opinion of him to put it lightly) or the only 2 vacation days he’s taken in a couple years had nothing to do with our family — both of our boys have Spring Breaks…does any of this make sense?
I don’t even know if this is right spot to post this, but I did want to answer Summer’s question about the guilt and give a bit of information he doesn’t feel he can post. I realize this is long and I apologize, if it’s the wrong place please direct me to right one. If y’all would rather I didn’t post let me know that, too. Anyone is free to ask any question they want I’ll try to answer as best as I can.
Hi, DmmitHardison!
Welcome to LwL!
I think you may have broken some new ground in that while we’ve had SOs of limerents become active members of the community, I don’t think we’ve ever had a limerent and their SO actively posting at the same time.
“I realize this is long and I apologize, if it’s the wrong place please direct me to right one. If y’all would rather I didn’t post let me know that, too. Anyone is free to ask any question they want I’ll try to answer as best as I can.”
My suggestion is that DrL create a separate “Coffee Shop” blog that references your post and is dedicated to it. It’s that significant. If we don’t get a dedicated “Coffee House,” my suggestion would be that you post in https://livingwithlimerence.com/help-my-partner-is-limerent-for-someone-else/ would be a good spot. You could copy this post, paste it in there and refer back to this blog. While the LO here is a coworker, the issues have wider applicability.
I think what you bring to the table is valuable and could help a lot of people. I hope DrL will weigh in on my suggestion so that you’ll know if you’ll have a dedicated place to post soon. If you know one’s coming, you might hold off until it gets here.
Wherever you end up posting, welcome, and please continue!
This post is more directed to DrL.
I want to elaborate on why I think DmmitHardison’s post is worthy of it’s own “Coffeehouse.”
In my time on LwL, I’ve seen posters whose SOs were indifferent to their partners’ LEs (Sophie). I’ve seen posters who got sufficiently fed up with their partners’ repeated LEs and lack of remorse that they ended the marriage (Lee). LwL has never had a limerent and their SO post simultaneously with the candor Adam and DmmitHardison are posting and with the apparent intent of getting past the LE.
In several blogs, there’s a question of whether a repentent limerent should point their spouse to LwL. In many situations, the answer is “No.” I’ve seen posters who allegedly have suffered some pretty grim consequences arising from limerence. Adam and DmmitHardison appear to be trying to avoid those. That’s so great! How could anybody not be pulling for them?!
I’d hate to see this knowledge go uncaptured. It could be so helpful.
Welcome DmmitHardison! I’m so glad you are here. Please keep posting unless it causes problems between you and Adam.
I am in the dog house right now, which I totally deserve, so I will keep this short.
Thank you for filling in some of the gaps in Adam’s story. Thank you for giving your perspective. You two have been through some big struggles.
I have so many questions for you, but I need to minimize my presence on LwL for now so I will save my questions for later. I hope you keep coming back. I hope you find a supportive community on LwL. I hope you two get stronger as you navigate Adam’s LE. Interestingly, my SO wishes he had a community that he could talk to about my LE. I’ve thought about having him post comments on an article that I promise not to read and I could post on an article that he doesn’t read so both of us have LwL support. You and Adam are so brave to just dive right in together. I’m impressed.
It is so nice to meet you!
DmmitHardison!!!
Hello! Welcome! I feel like I want to give you an online hug!
I woke up this morning and was reading your post when I was still groggy, and was like “who is this?” Then I realized! It is wonderful to “meet” you in this strange virtual world. I can see that others have already had a chance to post, and I certainly echo their sentiments.
I am a long time reader of LwL, but only recently started posting. I feel like I know Adam from his writings and really appreciated hearing your perspective of his LE. One thing I know for sure is that there are always at least two sides of a story, and this is heightened even more through limerence and limerent fog. LwL has been a huge support for me, and I think it has also been for Adam. Your post helps give clarity to the situation. My hope is that this is just another step in Adam’s journey to get over his LE.
“I’ve asked him, sometimes begged, several times to please not stew in this guilt”
-This was what I suspected. There were a number of things Adam has said about you and your relationship that made me think this was probably the case. However, I also try hard to not make too many assumptions about people in this forum as we are usually working on limited information.
I have said this to Adam in the past, and I will say it again. I don’t think his guilt is serving him well at this point. It is reassuring to hear you agree.
“I’ve been cast into a cold unfeeling wench that’s been out for punishment for years – there’s things that are the reason for me to go into myself”
–Maybe I am just feeling emotional after reading your post, but this brings tears to my eyes. I really, really, really hope I didn’t contribute to you feeling this way. Please know that was NOT how I saw you. I read this forum pretty closely, and I think most people assume that long term relationships are complicated and nuanced. I will say that Adam’s deep love and appreciation of you has come through his writing.
“I understand intrusive thoughts more than I’d like, even if mine are more nightmarish or extremely unpleasant and I can help him work through those when he tells me”
It sounds like you have significant expertise in the area of intrusive thoughts and how to deal with them. If you ever wanted to share some of your strategies on how you combat this thinking, people on this site would be very appreciative. Adam is lucky that you support him like this. Intrusive thoughts have been the worse part of limerence for me…
Sometimes my mental illnesses can be a very dark and ugly path to navigate.
–Thank you for sharing that. I hear you. I think mental illness is the one of the hardest paths to navigate. I so appreciate you openness and honesty. When people are candid about their struggles it gives others permission to open up. Thank you.
have been put out of proportion and some need the backstory to even make sense. It’s like only half a book.
–Yup. Of course. But also please know that I think most of us already know that anything we read on this site is going to be only half of the book. My LO would tell a very different story about our EA than I would as would my husband.
That being said, thank you so much for filling in some details. It was eye opening and actually answered some of my questions around what were Adam’s behaviors that were upsetting to you. Actually the comment about vacation days was helpful because it really shows how other areas of life also get webbed in with the LE.
“I realize this is long and I apologize, if it’s the wrong place please direct me to right one.”
–First of all- this wasn’t even that long. Second of all, I am so grateful for your honesty and support of Adam.
I hope I can explain this correctly- but hearing your even account of the LE and how you support Adam reminds me that my relationship with my SO is so much more meaningful than the fantasy of my LO.
I imagine there will be many questions- but I will limit myself to just a few. How do you feel about Adam going to therapy? You said in your post that you have gone to therapy for many years. Do you think that would be helpful for him? Would it be helpful for you if he was in therapy? Would would see that as a positive action for moving past the LE or does that not seem like a good choice?
I guess I am curious about how you feel about it as Adam’s wife and as the person who knows him best.
Thank you again for your thoughtful post. I hope reading LwL hasn’t been a negative experience for you and hope we get to hear from you again.
Hello DmmitHardison!
Wow, this sort of feels like a celebrity has landed in our midst. Welcome!
I am BEYOND impressed that you are here, sharing your pov, and that Adam is happy for you to do so. It blows my mind away. Such courage in trying to communicate in what is a very sensitive and emotional topic. This is vulnerability at its finest. For both of you.
So, I’m glad to hear that you don’t want Adam to suffer so much guilt – I’m not hugely active here now, but when I was, I was constantly telling him that since he is trying to do the right thing, and he never let this limerence business get into real life, the guilt wasn’t useful. But I realize now it is a little more complex – his show of guilt (like he said, a peacock) is a way of expressing how sorry he is to you, a manifestation of how much he cares. I get that now. All you have to do is now come up with an alternative list of things he can do to show you he cares (I recommend tons of luxury chocolates, fresh flowers, and I hear he’s a mean manicurist). I am rooting for you both, I truly am!
I just want to say a bit what this limerence thing is, since you (and most non-limerents) often express puzzlement. It is like a disease or infection. It is unwanted. We limerents may bear some responsibility in letting it develop, but it can develop so quickly, we might not have a chance of even realizing what is happening before it is too late (mine took 2 weeks!) and then we are stuck in this nightmare. We can’t function, it is intrusive and it is relentless, present all the time, takes over every waking moment, and sometimes sleeping moments too. We try desperately to stop it, while simultaneously longing for it (symptom of the disease aka person addiction) so progress is very slow. It is painful to the extreme (many of us cry many, many tears over this, men and women both), humiliating, with many set backs that demoralize us. We live with guilt (though Adam takes the gold medal for guilt) and shame, and fear of what it will do to our SOs and our families.
I do know it has nothing to do with love (what, after two weeks?) I do know it has nothing to do with commitment (limerents are, for the most part, extremely committed to their SOs – I actually think their suffering and guilt are in proportion to how much they are committed).
I suspect it has a lot to do with how we limerents are wired (and Dr L has done so much research on this and posted so many informative articles). I suspect it has something to do with any traumas we have, often childhood attachment issues, and that is what makes particular LOs glimmer for us – it is not objective attractiveness (some people have said their LOs are practically ugly), it is more a combination of factors that speak to an individual limerent’s vulnerabilities.
I hope this helps you as a spouse. I realize, with some sadness, that I have explained to you, how I would have liked to explain to my SO, if I had ever had the courage to do so (which I didn’t).
Lovisa-
That was really sound advice.
Do you mind me asking- do you think your father’s LE shaped how you feel about marriage or made you more susceptible to limerence?
My father left my mother (married for over 30 years) far a MUCH younger women. He was probably having a LE- although it is hard for me to give him any sympathy for his actions.
Sometimes I worry that limerence is in my DNA or my father’s actions make me more susceptible to limerence somehow. But then I also think one of the reasons why my marriage is so strong is because of my parents divorce. It has made me very intentional about my relationship.
I am very curious what your thoughts are on all this.
Summer, those are great questions. I will try to answer. I am confident that my father had limerence for my first step-mom. I was angry that he “left us” because my mother drilled it into me. The venom in my mother is quite shocking. I actually think it is the reason that my sister and I struggle to have friendships with women. Both of us prefer male friends and we always have (except of course our friendship with each other because we are close). Side note: my sister was the first person I told about my limerence. It amused her because she could sense my guilty conscience but she knows I would never betray my husband. She thought I made a big deal out of a little problem. It was a relief to have someone who I could talk to. I was even able to talk to her about my transference. My LO3 has the same name as our brother so both of us had some skin-crawling moments when my talk of LO3 by name was obviously sexually charged, I would follow it up with, “Not our brother LO3, Sexy voice LO3.” Eventually I stopped using his name and just referred to him as “Sexy Voice” when I was with my sister. Anyway, I think my strong commitment to marriage came from my mom convincing me that all of our problems were my dad’s fault and it was all because he “cheated with that hussy.” I will never be a home wrecker. I will never do that to anyone. My childhood was rough. I’m the youngest of six and my mom finished raising us alone. My oldest brother was 14 and I was 4. I know it was hard for my mom. I can’t imagine doing what she did. She is stronger than me for sure. But, back to my dad… My first LE softened my heart towards my father. My first LO seduced me on purpose. The temptation was intense. I didn’t give into temptation, but I could see why my father gave into being seduced. I was able to forgive my father, but not my step-mom. This last LE softened my heart toward my stepmom because I intentionally transferred my limerence to a man who was minding his own business and he had never had feelings for another woman since he married his wife until I came along. I realized, “Oh no! I’m the hussy.” But, just to be fair, I believed that the limerence would stay in my head and not affect anyone else. Whereas, my stepmom wanted my dad to leave his family to help her raise her kids. It is different, but I still see similarities and… well… if I can’t forgive her, I can’t forgive myself. So I forgave her.
I wonder if this rambling answered your question.
I suspect that I am susceptible to limerence for a few reasons.
1. I am a boy-crazy girl. I always have been. My sister is the same way and my biological daughter is the same way. I don’t know why we are like this, but I see a big difference in my adopted daughters’ attitudes towards boys. It isn’t nearly as intense.
2. I use men to motivate myself. I like to impress them so I try to do things that make me a better version of myself. Sometimes I have a specific muse in mind: a man from my community who I try to impress. It’s all in my head and I know it. But it works for me. The muse situation became very problematic with LO2 because he was my muse but he had also become my emotional support and he was in a sexless marriage. It was a recipe for disaster.
3. I have wondered if my LOs represent my absent father and if my SO is playing the role of my very present, absolutely wonderful grandfather who filled the father-role for me until he died when I was 11. I adored my grandfather and I was his favorite grandchild. We were close. He was the only stable adult in my life. Multiple family members have given my SO the compliment of saying that he reminds them of my grandfather. My SO wears that compliment with pride because he can see how much respect we have for my grandfather. Everyone gets reverent when we speak of him.
I am rambling again. Ultimately, I think my limerence comes from my indulgence in fantasies. My religion is big on accountability so hear I am trying to be accountable. I caused this problem. I am not a victim, I did this. I did it naively, but I still did it. I can’t blame my parents, LOs or anyone else. I am susceptible to limerence because I indulge in fantasies about real people. Ironically, I don’t enjoy fiction except classical literature like Les Miserables and really popular fiction like Harry Potter. I’m a nonfiction kind of girl, but maybe if I read someone else’s fantasy, I could satisfy the need and avoid a future LE. I don’t know. Using muses and fantasies has been a way of life for me for so long. I don’t know how to completely change. But I am willing to try. Gosh, I am rambling again. I hope I answered your question.
I would love for you to expand your thoughts about your dad, too. I understand your anger towards your father. I am so sorry that your family has to struggle through divorce. It stinks! Divorce stinks!
I’ve been talking with my psychologist about the concept of anima/animus projection. It’s a new concept to me but it makes some sense. Some of you might know more about this than I do, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I understand, the idea from Jungian psychology is that the unconscious mind is made up of multiple different entities, one of which is the anima (in a man) or the animus (in a woman). The theory is that as we’re developing early in life, we learn what parts of ourselves are acceptable or unacceptable in our roles (familial, societal, etc). The parts that are acceptable become part of our conscious mind, and the unacceptable parts don’t go away but get shoved into the unconscious mind where they continue to affect us without our conscious knowledge.
As a boy learns what masculine traits are expected and rewarded in a male in his cultural context, the feminine traits that he also possesses get shoved into his unconscious where they become an entity called the anima. Similar for a female, but her masculine traits become an entity called the animus. A woman’s animus is thought to resemble her father and other males important in her early life, and a man’s anima resembles the important women in his early life.
And then what happens at various times in life, sometimes during times of psychological stress but not necessarily, is that we project our anima/animus onto other people who trigger a projection of our unconscious mind for whatever reason. And then we become intensely fascinated and preoccupied with that person and crave closeness and union with them (sound familiar?) But ultimately it’s not about the other person, it’s about our psyche trying to become whole (a process called integration) by uniting the conscious and unconscious parts of our minds, and the anima/animus serves as the bridge between those parts of ourselves. So these episodes of limerence or anima/animus projection are really calls for us to get to know ourselves better and become more psychologically whole. And if we aren’t able to do this, we’ll continue projecting our anima/animus on one person after another.
Anyway, like I mentioned this is all new to me and I don’t really understand it all that well, but it certainly is something I’m interested in learning more about, and I’m definitely hoping to use this current experience as a call to get more in touch with myself and understand myself better, because I really don’t want to just keep spending my life jumping from LO to LO and not even knowing why.
Thank you for explaining that so clearly, Lost in Space. I understand it better now that you put it in the context of limerence. That is fascinating!
Lovisa my dear, I wanted to check in on you too! I am so impressed by your self-awareness, especially with regard to the boy-craziness and using men to motivate yourself, and most of all your awareness of your indulgence in fantasy about real people.
Interestingly, when I fell for my LO, I wouldn’t say I used him to motivate myself, but it was like I was constantly imagining how he would perceive me and what I was doing. It was like his eyes were on me the whole time, even as I went through my day. My girlfriends said it was remarkable, specifically my looks changed, and my attitude (quite unconsciously) – I was basically more attractive and sensual, in an objective way. Having LO in my head did that to me. (Thinking back to the convo people had about how men feel that their wives don’t care about them when they don’t bother with their looks – I mean, why wasn’t SO in my head, motivating me to be the most attractive version of myself? If you must talk about accountability.)
Wow, your family dynamics are so complicated. I am glad you have your sister to talk to.
Thanks Limmy! It is so good to hear from you. How are you?
I use my SO as a muse, too. He has been my most prominent muse since I met him. Yesterday, I curled my hair for him. I was late to church because curling my hair takes so much time, but I wanted to do it for my SO.
My SO and I are stuck in a “Gift of the Magi” situation. He pointed out that my leaking limerence was hurting him. I told him that I will go NC and quit LwL immediately because I don’t want to hurt him. He asked me not to quit. He regretted saying anything about his pain. He fears that if I quit contact with my LOs, I will get depressed. I fear that too, but I would rather be depressed than hurt my SO. I think NC is the right thing to do and I am hopeful that NC doesn’t equal depression, but I honestly don’t know. Ugh. We compromised a solution. My SO doesn’t feel threatened by LO2 so I don’t have to make any changes in that relationship. My SO asked me to limit what I discuss with LO3 to two specific subjects. SO and I felt close after we had our discussion, which is pretty amazing. It blows my mind that he loves me even though I am full of imperfections. He thinks it’s okay for me to have feelings that don’t line up with my values as long as I don’t act on those feelings.
I want to share more with you, but motherhood calls.
I’m doing okay, thank you for asking. Just working out the details of my new life … which interestingly enough is so absorbing that really the LE seems almost like a dream some times. Today I imagined LO in my head as he used to appear and it was really wierd – I had no emotional reaction at all. Used to be if I pictured him in my head like that, I would have all sorts of feelings, reactions, longing. And now I see him as an attractive guy … like any attractive guy, without the desire I felt for him in the past. The combination of being really busy and interested in my own life (I am one of those people for whom crisis brings out the best in me), LC and ex-LO basically being physically removed (to the army), and most crucially – internalizing the belief that although we may have had mutual attraction he definitely isn’t interested *that* way anymore. I remember some discussions here on LwL about how we desire to be desired, so I guess if I really believe LO doesn’t desire me anymore, my ego is not being stroked and there is no dopamine hit. And thereby LO loses his hold on me.
I’ve noticed quite a few others on here are now admitting to themselves that they imagined LO felt anything special, and that is a crucial step to loose that hold our LOs had on us.
I’ve also been wondering a bit if the fact that I am now free is instrumental to ridding myself of the narrative of star crossed lovers. Maybe I was rebelling against the constraints of my life , and the limerence was a symptom of that.
I am still quite interested in limerence because I am concerned it might strike again. But I am hopeful it will not, because life seems so much more interesting now, and interest in LO faded so naturally.
Hi Limmy, it sounds like you are adjusting to your new normal and maybe even thriving as a result of it. I hope I understood correctly. It’s good that you have the skills to function well under pressure.
I think you are on to something about feeling better after LO appears to lose desire. For some limerents that would help, but I think others may experience uncertainty and get stuck in rumination. I am glad that the lack of feeling desired is working well for you.
Thank you for the update.
@Vee
I’m gonna respond to your latest crisis down here so I have more room to type this out from my phone.
First off…I feel for you! I know exactly what you are going through with LO where the urge to disclose is so great because you love her that much. Just yesterday I actually posted on the When Not to Disclose blog just to share my story there.
There were a few factors that led to my disclosure but first I should say that disclosure for me came all of a sudden. The day I did it I came into work with no intent of disclosing. But some things happened with LO that the conversation was hard not to have. We had extenuating circumstances of other people in the office noticing and talking about our behavior and LO was catching wind of it. Disclosure was part of me trying to control that narrative.
But, for a while the idea of disclosure was so tempting. What held me back for a long time was the thought that I might become ‘creepy boss’ to her. I hated that thought. I didn’t disclose until I had at least a passable explanation for my feelings and that came after we had that string of everyday texting for a couple weeks that felt very EA like. At that point I at least had something to point to that she played a part in that I could say contributed to my feelings. Prior to all that texting I was miserable with my desire for her but never considered disclosure as an option. Not to say I didn’t throw a few flirty bombs her way from time to time. I told her once she was one of my favorite people and I also would say things like “can’t wait to see you tomorrow”. Those are lines I don’t say to other coworkers.
Once I did disclose, I will not lie, it lifted a huge burden. My secret was out, she could take it how she wanted, I just needed to put it out there. But I have also been lucky in that she basically just internalized it and dealt with it personally. My biggest fear is that she would tell her SO and he would freak out. I also worried she would feel uncomfortable with me and quit. She did neither, instead she got introspective about her own behavior towards me…gaslighted me just a little, and I let her, and she carried on coming to work each day. The moment I realized this knowledge of my attraction burdened her I became laser focused to undo any emotional turmoil and make work for her as comfortable as possible. It took a few weeks but she started to trust me again.
It’s about 3+ months now past disclosure and inside the office she is again her normal self. I still question the truth of her feelings in all this as she still looks at me like no other woman does, and even just this morning she texted me about something personal (I don’t ever text her personal matters anymore) which shows she still values a level of connection with me. It’s not romantic but it’s something I guess. But my LE is still present in more of an annoying background noise kind of way and I still have to practice LC everyday to stay neutral emotions. Disclosure does not take away the LE though it did lessen it.
As for you…it feels like you are in a more precarious spot if you disclose. Do you have a reasonable explanation for your feelings or could you all of a sudden be seen as creepy? And what is your desired purpose…to unburden yourself from carrying the secret? Or maybe so you can back off or have her back off? Or do you want her to disclose also and get on with the business of an EA or PA? Also, do you think you know her likely reaction? With disclosure there are so many variables, and I can tell you that you will be worried sick about the repercussions the moment you do it. I was. My feeling is it is not a good idea right now. Not really a good idea anytime, but certainly not now because your relationship really is just normal work interactions.
Last, I can’t quite give great marriage advice, my experience was opposite. My LE has made me pull closer to my wife and my wife is an amazing woman. I have no legitimate gripe with her or our marriage. But I hope you can purposely focus in on your marriage first and get that sorted out. Maybe this LE is the wakeup call for fighting for your marriage. Disclosing to the wife…not a fan unless you have an avenue to go NC with LO. Once you disclose, your wife will not want you within 100 miles ever of LO so trying to balance a working relationship with LO while your wife has the knowledge that she is an LO seems unsustainable.
Stay strong, maybe try to slowly go LC and NC if you can. Focus on the marriage and figure that out. Keep going to therapy. And keep posting here. We got you!
Speedwagon, LiS, Adam, Lovisa – thanks for all the comments and advise.
I really appreciate it and it all makes sense. I decided i wont disclose or discuss my marriage issues with LO. I saw her after some time and it was hard – she really has no idea.
Speedwagon – the creepy boss fear probably resonated most with me – i would hate her to see me that way. In terms of trust – we have known each other for a long time and she has entrusted me with very personal info. But i understand why it still should be avoided.
Adam – i cannot disclose to SO – she would not understand and it would end very badly. She would not be supportive or helpful – i am convinced of this.
The therapy has been helping a little but i still think of LO all the time – trying my best to distract myself away from her. I am trying with SO but it feels so hard to improve things.
I hope i can keep up the restraint with LO. So far so good. But everyday is still so hard.
Thanks for the update, Vee. The last blog post by DR L is a good one talking about habituation. It really resonated with me because that is exactly what I am trying to do with my LO, make our interactions so routine that the euphoria of being around her wears off. I wonder if your interactions with LO are still sporadic enough that they keep you in a more limerent state? Maybe you should try to make your interactions as routine as possible.
Was her personal sharing what gave you the glimmer? I can’t remember what triggered your LE for her?
I had one of the best ‘great chemistry’ interactions with my LO yesterday. We had to collaborate on something she is working on and the whole time…about 30 min…it was witty and funny vollies back and forth. A ton of smiling, giggling, eye gazing. This is what kills me, we have such good chemistry together, but the thing is, it always stays superficial. She never gets deep or personal with me. But that is kind of her personality, very surface level, never too affectionate. But the way she looks and smiles at me…it reminds me of an ex relationship I had with a girl that was very passionate. LO looks at me the same as that girl used to. I get the same vibes. It kills me!
Yikes that would be so triggering, Speedwagon. I hope you’re doing okay after that experience with your LO.
I’m so sorry, but I suspect she thinks everything blew over and your attraction isn’t a problem anymore. Ugh! My heart goes out to you because it is almost as if you are back to where you started.
Good luck!
Hi Lovisa…it’s not nearly as bad as it sounds. I have learned to cope well with these in office interactions and in some ways I do enjoy them. But, I have to be a bit careful I don’t go overboard with them. I can find myself ruminating on them more later when they are heavy chemistry. But, they don’t send me into a depressive mood so much anymore because I have come to see them as just friendship and not a cue of her attraction.
I do think you are right, she seems to be past any concern of my attraction whether she thinks I am past it, or whether she just has become comfortable with my current behaviors and boundaries and the attraction no longer matters.
Hi Speedwagon, it is good news that the depressive lows are under control. You have come far.
Speedwagon – the more intimate conversations definitely played a big role – knowing she trusted me to confide in me felt really good. I guess its the rescue fantasy of hearing about how poorly she was treated and at the same time understanding more about what a great person she is. It definitely contributed to the glimmer. We havent had any deep conversations for a while now – maybe that is helping.
We have regular work interactions (2 to 3 times a week) but there will be some abnormal ones coming up (although none of them should be alone with her).
She needs me to help her as her mentor and boss from a professional perspective so i am trying to balance things as best as i can.
There is a after work evening event planned in a couple of weeks – i am a bit anxious about it because i know it is going to be a big trigger seeing her in a different social / party environment.
Lets see what happens – hoping i can survive.
Either way – another week gone with no disclosure.
Sounds like you are settling into routine, which is good. As the weeks go by these interactions will feel less significant.
I never really had deep sharing from my LO, she seems to operate at a pretty superficial level. At best she would talk about parenting, but never in a deep personal way, more in a “what do you think of this or that” way. A couple times she skirted the edges of talking about her husband, but then she stops short and doesn’t go there with me and I certainly don’t ask. She also talks fondly of her childhood and her father who died a number of years back. I guess it is nice when she did that with me.
These days though, we talk very little personal matters because I don’t pursue it with her due to being LC, and she is not a natural conversationalist if I don’t initiate.
The evening event will be tough, seeing LO out of normal work situations always brings up new feelings. It might give you greater insight into her state of being with you. Maybe she is acts indifferent towards you or maybe she hangs around you a lot and gives you more attraction vibes. It could be a very high/low emotional moment so be prepared and maybe set up a plan for the evening. But, when I had my office staff and their SOs to my house a few months back, it turned out not as bad as I thought. You’ll get through OK.
Hi Vee, thanks for the update. Nice work! I’m glad you’re still talking to your therapist and keeping boundaries with your LO. I know it’s hard, but I believe in you. You got this!
LIS-
A few quick questions. Here are some different scenarios-
What would happen if you missed LO’s last day of work? What if you and your wife went away for a few days and did something you both enjoy?
What would happen if you asked LO to take a picture together and then buried it somewhere far away. What if you knew you had one keepsake even if you didn’t look at it for a long time. Maybe give it to a trusted friend for safekeeping? Would this be a good or bad thing?
What would you need to do beforehand to ensure that you leave things with your LO on a good note? In one of your previous posts you wrote that you would like to be able to contact her in the future just to check in. I do wonder if you will feel this way in a year- but regardless- it sounds like a big emotional goodbye is not what you really want to see happen. So what will you put in place to make sure you are keeping your goals in mind?
Are you able to get enough exercise? Sleep? I feel like I am channeling Lovisa- but running was my saving grace when my LO went away. Getting some extra endorphins made me feel a tad bit better.
“Now that the EA has essentially ended, I find myself having much more positive thoughts about SO.”
You wrote this in an earlier post. Are you still having positive thoughts about SO? Is that helpful? It sounds like you two have been connecting lately. I hope this is the case.
Summer, thanks for the questions. I find it helpful to run through different scenarios like this.
1) It wouldn’t be possible to go away with SO for a few days to miss LO’s last day of work for 2 reasons. At my workplace we’re required to schedule time off more than 30 days in advance, and she’s leaving sooner than that. Also, SO and I have 3 young kids and no one to watch them for extended periods of time, so there are unfortunately no couples getaways for the two of us during this particular season in our life. Of course, I COULD just call in sick on her last day – but I know for sure that I’m just not going to do that. It would feel like running away and that’s not in my nature. I’d have too many regrets and what-ifs later.
2) Yes, I’ve actually been planning to ask LO to take a picture together so I have one tangible memory of her. I think she’ll be ok with it. I’ll only ask her if we speak in private so I wouldn’t risk putting her on the spot by asking her in front of other people, just in case she’s not ok with it. I’ll just keep it on my phone in my album. If SO happened to see it, she wouldn’t think anything weird of me taking a photo with a long-time coworker on her last day. I have a few photos with my previous LO on my phone. I looked at them a lot in the first few weeks after she left town. Now I really never look at them, but there’s something reassuring about having them.
3) Here’s my ideal scenario for our conversation… She comes to see me in my office and indicates that she’s not in too much of a hurry to leave. I ask her to take a photo together and she says yes. I offer to send it to her and she says yes. I give her a couple of little gifts I bought for her. One of them is something practical that she’ll appreciate when she starts school next month, and the other is a sentimental little trinket, a memento that only she and I would understand that I think she’ll appreciate and keep and maybe think of me from time to time she sees it. Plus a bag of her favorite snack food for the drive home. I think she’ll appreciate all of that. Maybe she’ll have a little something for me, maybe she won’t. Maybe she’ll tell me how thoughtful and sweet I always am to her. She used to say that a lot. If she does, then I might tell her that it comes easily to be sweet to her because I think the world of her.
I want to tell her that I really truly appreciate the time we spent together and am grateful that I got to know her. That I think she’s a wonderful person and my life is better because she was in it. That I wish so many good and happy things for her in the future and I truly believe that many good things are in store for her. That I wish I could be part of her life in the future but I understand why I can’t. That she’ll always have a special place in my heart and I’ll always remember her as someone who was so special to me, and that I’ll always love her. None of this will be anything I haven’t told her before. I honestly believe she’ll be happy to hear it from me one more time. I might make it through it without crying.
Maybe she’ll say some meaningful things to me too, or maybe she won’t. I really don’t know. I know that she tends to respond to strong emotions by shutting down. There’ve been a couple times in the past month where she was right on the brink of telling me things and then pulled back. About a month ago, she texted me something like “there are so many things I want to say to you but I know I shouldn’t so I don’t”. Another time, just a couple weeks ago, she texted me that she’d been thinking about me during her drive home and had so much to tell me and it was beautiful and made her feel happy and carefree, but then she couldn’t find the words to tell me anymore (my goodness, that kind of stuff drove me crazy!) So anyway, I’m hoping that during this one conversation, with both of us knowing it’s the last time, she won’t feel the need to hold anything back and can open up and tell me how she truly feels. It wouldn’t change anything about the future, but it would just make me feel really good to hear it from her. She used to tell me real things about her feelings for me, but it’s been a few months now and it would just be nice to hear that she still cares for me.
And then we’ll both know it’s time for her to go, and we’ll hug and neither one of us will want to let go, but we will, and then she’ll go on her way. And that’ll be the end, because we both know it has to be – but it would just feel really good for it to end like that.
Possible? Yes. Probable? Maybe not. I don’t know. Like I said before, I’m mostly going to just try to read her mood and follow her lead, and not push anything on her that would make things worse, but if she’s in the mood for a tender final conversation, then I’d like that a lot.
I can also thing of three reasons why she might just skip out on seeing me altogether, or just limit herself to a hasty goodbye with a bunch of other people around. She might do that to protect herself from strong emotions she doesn’t want to deal with. Or she might do it if her own limerence has been improving a lot in the past few weeks and she doesn’t want to set herself back. Or she might avoid me if she’s afraid that one last meeting might lead to a sexual encounter. In the past, there’ve been two or three times where she told me she had to take a break from seeing me, because she was getting too tempted to do something that she’d regret forever (hearing that was certainly nice for my middle-aged ego, but also sent my mind to a lot of places it shouldn’t have been). I don’t think she’s still feeling that way, but I really have no way to know. I do believe that she trusts me not to try to instigate anything like that. Ultimately, I just have to be prepared to accept whatever happens. But it would definitely hurt if she just skips out without seeing me, even if the reasons behind it are totally understandable.
4) I’ve been preparing my self-care plan for after she leaves. I signed up for a half marathon at the end of May – hopefully I’ll end up with a heartbreak-fueled PR, but at the least it’ll be a good motivator to do a lot of running over the next month. I plan to start going back to my martial arts training a couple times a week as well – I’ve gone to this great MMA gym regularly for the past few years and really like the people there, but I’ve slacked off in recent months, and I know it would be good to go back there and enjoy the camaraderie of my training partners and the exertion of some good sparring sessions. My son just got a drum set, and I’m strongly considering buying an electric guitar so I can start rocking out with him in the garage – I think that would be a ton of fun and would feel really good. And I plan to pay extra attention to SO – making a point of doing things like buying her flowers, giving her massages, getting a sitter so we can go out on date nights – stuff I already do but will make a conscious plan to do more of it.
And the first week of June I have a little retreat scheduled just for myself. SO and I have given each other permission to take occasional trips on our own while the other one manages all the home responsibilities. For example, in a couple of weeks she’s leaving for 4 days to hang out with her sister in another city while I stay home with the kids. In June, she’ll return the favor and stay home with the kids while I take a 3 day trip on my own. One of my new favorite musicians, whose music has been the main soundtrack to my heartache the past couple of months, is playing a solo acoustic show in this little mountain town in Utah, so I’m going to fly out there to go see him, and then spend the rest of the weekend doing stuff like hiking, swimming in mountain lakes, soaking in hot springs, and reading a good book. I think it’ll be really good for my soul.
Lost in Space, there is no shortage of lovely things to do in Utah. If you aren’t familiar with the app AllTrails, I recommend that you download it and familiarize yourself with it before your trip. It’s how I find new trails. I’m curious where you will visit because Utah is a big state. There is so much opportunity to enjoy the outdoors.
It will be interesting to see how the final meeting goes with LO. I am particularly curious about how she will respond to your photo request because my LO1 asked for a photo once and it didn’t go the way he expected. My LO1 has fame so it is normal for him to take photos with other people. It wasn’t normal for me and I hadn’t accepted the idea of selfies, yet. So when LO1 asked if he could take a picture of me or even better, a picture of us together, I said, “No way!” To me that picture represented “evidence” of the inappropriate nature of our relationship. Don’t take it personally if she refuses. I had a change of heart and sent a Christmas card to LO’s family that had a picture of my family in it. I hoped to satisfy that need for him. I had an advantage that there are plenty of his pictures on the internet so, if I wanted to sneak a peak, I could. There was nothing of me on the internet at least not that I know about. So I sent him one picture.
Lost in space, you have me crying with your post of farewell to your LO.
Why does it have to be so hard and painful to love someone? The gods are not in our side. I’m still pining after fifty years.
Lots of courage, strength and peace of mind to you.
Thank you Nisor. I had an imaginary conversation with LO in my head today. In it, I told her that I missed her so very much, but in the next breath told her that I know she’s doing the right thing. And then I told her that I still love her with everything inside of me, but that I understand that now, loving her means respecting her boundaries and staying away
Imaginary LO seemed pleased 😊
I saw LO at work today. She looked absolutely beautiful today, better than she’s ever looked. She’s a very beautiful woman. I don’t know how every guy in the workplace isn’t crazy about her.
She brought me some paperwork. She said here you go and I said thanks and she walked away. No smile, no eye contact, no sign of anything on her face. Like I meant nothing at all to her. I’ve been feeling like absolute crap ever since. Seeing her has become physically painful. I can’t wait for her last day. I mean, I absolutely hate the thought of her leaving, but the only thing worse is still seeing her every day and getting reminded each time of how a relationship that used to feel so good is now just so broken.
I wish I could read her mind. I just hate not knowing what’s going on inside her head. Does she still love me? Does she hate me? Has she become indifferent to me? (Which would be worse – hate or indifference?) I have no idea and not knowing is just killing me. And I know it shouldn’t matter because it doesn’t make any difference – the reality is that our relationship is over because I’m married and she’s committed herself to trying to reconcile with her ex, and so we have no business being in a relationship with each other. I know this, I can accept this, but damn it just hurts so bad to be so disconnected from her, to go from a relationship where we were sharing our most intimate thoughts and feelings with each other to one where she’s become a stone wall to me, completely shut off.
I feel like if she just told me “I still love you but I’m staying strong and not talking to you because it’s the right thing to do” then I’d feel a lot less terrible. Last time we talked on the phone, about a week and a half ago, I told her how much it hurt to not understand how she was feeling and asked her if she’d just tell me, just for my peace of mind, but she wasn’t having any of that – I can’t remember exactly what she said but it was something completely vague and unrevealing.
Anyway, I know none of this is anything I haven’t said before, but I just feel so low today, so broken and lost… any words of encouragement would be appreciated. This disenfranchised grief thing is so real – I don’t know what I’d do without this community. I appreciate you all so much
Lost in space, I’ve been extremely depressed today as well however I’m withdrawing from NC you seem to be in a worse situation because from her apparent coldness.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/
I think maybe you should read this
you want her to tell you she loves you because your still craving reciprocation, I’m not aware of your situation but It seems a once very close relationship and her now being cold most likely means she’s deliberately being distance because she doesn’t wanna get hurt so think about that to feel better because I think it’s the thought that she doesn’t care for you that’s hurting you. But it seems quite the opposite of her not caring for you.
As for you feeling low broken and lost. Trust me I’ve been there am basically there now but, this is all nessesery for recover and try and use the depression as motivation and make a big purposel change this is the best time to do that as it’s the time you have the most motivation. I really am sorry you feeling like this but I promise it will pass you just have to be patient for now
A couple random quotes that make me feel better now and again
Don’t mourn the loss of past thrills. Seek new, healthier ones, secure in the knowledge that you chose them with purpose. Don’t trust the dubious neuro-alchemy of limerence.
our connection with LO is actually less real and profound than we believe it to be becuase we subconsciously impart so much imagined nuance on every interaction with LO. ”
Take it from someone whose LO is mostly indifferent towards them, from everything you have described about you and her it truly sounds like mutual intense desire and she probably loves you more than anyone she has ever loved. She has just gone defensive now. If my LO showed 1/100th of the emotion your LO shows towards you I would be ecstatic.
If knowing she still loves you helps, rest assured she does. She just hates you also for not being available to her.
Damn, I wish my LO would leave. Maybe one day…maybe?
Thank you brother. I appreciate your words a lot. “she probably loves you more than anyone she has ever loved” – I cried reading that but it felt good. Maybe it’s even true.
I guess we both have something to be grateful for. If a person had to deal with the intensity of my situation combined with the no-end-in-sight of your situation, that would be absolute hell. I’ve been glad to hear that you’re managing as well as you have been.
I saw this unknown quote … “Sometimes you have to accept someone’s choice even if it hurts you more than they will ever know.”
In contrast ….
“I miss you so much I get jealous of the people that get to see you every day.”
The one thing that helps me maintain NC for almost a year now is knowing that her life with the man she is with now is the best for her. It is stable, supportive and healthy. It is good for her and her daughters. All of which needed it after a bad divorce and a toxic ex/father.
I couldn’t have ever given her that. Ever. With the limerence fading I can clearly see my memories of her and her daughters without the fog of limerence. So I can always, and will always, cherish the true memories not the distorted ones that make me ruminate. And that is healthier for me and my other relationships as well.
I like both of those quotes a lot.
I do have to accept her choice. I know it’s right and that really she’s doing me a favor. If it was up to me, I’d probably try to carry on the emotional affair forever, and I know logically that nothing good could come from that and that it’s so unfair to my SO. I honestly don’t know if she knows just how bad it’s hurting me to be cut out of her life. I’ve expressed to her many times exactly how I feel about her and how strong my feelings are, but I don’t know that she truly believes me because she has trouble seeing herself as worthy of love. I don’t know if she realizes now just how badly I’m hurting as a result of being separated from her, or if she assumes I’m better off without her and can easily move on.
I definitely feel jealous of her SO, who’s treated her pretty badly and doesn’t appreciate her or do much of anything to make her feel loved, but still gets to talk to her every day and wake up next to her every morning. How anyone could take this woman for granted is beyond me.
“The one thing that helps me maintain NC for almost a year now is knowing that her life with the man she is with now is the best for her. It is stable, supportive and healthy.”
I wish I could say that about my LO but I can’t. Her life with her SO is none of those things and she’s horribly depressed. It would make it so much easier to walk away from this if I knew she was going to be ok. She told me recently how broken she feels, how it’s like something has always been missing from her life and she can’t find it no matter how hard she tries. And that makes me want to just hold her and take care of her and make everything ok for her. I’d be so good to her if we were together, and she knows it. She told me once that I treat her better than anyone she’s ever known. But it’s all just useless fantasy, because of course I can’t be with her because I’m already with someone else who also needs me and who I love very much. But it’s just so hard to think about her suffering and not be able to do a damn thing to make her happy.
It’s funny, for the first couple months of our relationship, I felt like she was going to save me. Then for the next couple months, all I could think about was how to save her. Now I know I just have to let go and hope that she’s able to find happiness on her own – no one can really save anyone else, and especially not in this situation.
All I can do is hope that somehow, in some way, this experience with me will help her to find happiness. Not now, when she’s hurting and heartbroken, but maybe months or years from now, maybe this experience of having a guy like me love and adore and value her for who she is will help her to believe that she is lovable and valuable and will help her to love herself and to find true happiness. That’s why it’s so important to me to make sure this ends well – no matter how hurt I feel, I can’t ever let myself lash out at her or do anything to make her feel that I don’t love her anymore or that I’m yet another person who rejected her. I need her to walk away from this knowing that my feelings for her never waivered and that wherever she goes in life I’ll always be out there wanting the best for her and loving her always even if only from afar.
“I’d probably try to carry on the emotional affair forever”
There was a time (and I actually commented it here early on when I found this place) where I felt the same. Ronnie Milsap’s song I Wouldn’t Have Missed It For The World meant so much to me. It still does, but in a different way.
“But if I had the chance tomorrow you know I’d do it all again”
And I would have. All the heartache, turmoil, rumination, marital strife … all of it I would have done again just for the time with her again. Now the song means a lot to me in regards to her in that, while I now know I would not want to endure this again, I wouldn’t ever have not wanted it to happen. She was a special woman in a special time in my life that I never want to forget. Ever. I know what she was to me no matter how other people may think.
“Then for the next couple months, all I could think about was how to save her. ”
Oh boy can I relate. When I met LO she was single and enduring the aftermath of a very bad divorce. Cue rescue complex. Even my wife pinpointed in the aftermath that was the spark that fueled the fire. Her peril was my glimmer.
“You think you can save every woman in peril. That you can make up for every bad deed a man has done to a woman.”
Was along the lines of something she told me after confessing my limerence. And I could tell in the tone of her voice it wasn’t said in anger. It was said in frustration. Because she knows that a part of the foundation of my love for her is because I felt I needed to rescue her.
I remember Miss Lovisa saying to me early on, when I found this place, if there was something I could rescue my wife from. When you have been with someone a long time you can both get in a rut even if you still love each other. Spontaneous things get lost in the routine of everyday life. She urged me to try and find some way I could fill that need with her instead of LO. (Miss Lovisa is such a blessing. I know I’d not made it this far without her.) And it worked. It’s still an effort on my part but I am finding small ways to “rescue” my wife.
As far as your turmoil in knowing how her life is now with her ex, things can change. Maybe he will see it and change and be better for her. I very much would have advised my wife’s cousin to leave her husband when they first got together but now anyone that didn’t know their early relationship would have balked if I said that early on he was borderline abusive. What if my LO’s gentleman friend turns sour? It’s difficult to detach from someone’s life who you care so much about. And that’s not even mutually exclusive to limerence, that’s relationships in general. There’s the fact that she can see from how you treated her as the gentleman you are that she can set the bar with her relationships, be it her ex or any other man she might choose to be with. I know you impressed on her how a woman should be treated. Be confident that will carry with her all her life.
I often wonder too how LO saw/sees me from our time together. As a mostly doubtful person I think she has moved on and probably remembers little of our encounters together.
“How could you leave without regret
Am I that easy to forget?”
She left her last day at work with a “goodbye Adam” and she was gone. I don’t know what I expected. I mean my limerent mind knew what I was hoping for. But my rational mind knew that it wouldn’t be anything like that. Hell I remember ruminating about a possible goodbye with her long before I ever had any fear she would quit her job. Just possible scenarios of what I would do if I ever did have to say goodbye. And now on bad days I imagine scenarios of what I would do if I ever got to see her again. It’s a damn vicious cycle when you let limerence take over.
I’ve been where you are at. The absolute agony of her absence. That drive home from her last day at work was one of the most emotional days of my life. I went from the elation of being in her presence to the killing pain of knowing I might never see her again in the span of 8 hours. It sucks. And being that you have a spouse too, we both push all that pain down and away (and in my case drown it in vodka) and have to appear as if nothing isn’t rending you asunder. That’s not easy. Because so few people even know what limerence is much less understand what it does to a person.
People told me four months ago when I found this place “it will get better” and it sounded like getting a thank you card from some gal that just ripped your heart out, stomped on it and then threw it under a bus. But they were right. It does. I hope it doesn’t take a year of aftermath for you to find that out like I did. But thankfully you found this community at the point you did in your limerence unlike me. So hopefully you can move past the pain with their help faster than I did.
You always have listening ears here when you need to talk. We will be here for you.
LIS,
“Which would be worse – hate or indifference?)”
Indifference is worse. Way worse.
They say that the opposite of love isn’t hate, it’s indifference.
The last thing I remember LO #2 ever saying to me was, “You told me that I had the potential to go through life as a very unhappy person. I hate you for that.”
I pushed LO #4 hard to reveal herself. On New Years Eve Day, 2015, I emailed LO #4 and asked for a reset. She replied the next day. In her goodbye, LO #4 said she’d been thinking about things for several weeks. She said that she “wished me no ill will,” and thought continuing to correspond “wouldn’t be appropriate.” She brought up “angry emails” that I’d sent when I felt “dismissed and ignored.” She said, “I don’t like the way that feels.”
Whatever she felt, it wasn’t indifference.
As far as a legacy goes, for a long time I thought it was important. I wanted LO #2’s last thought on her deathbed be of me. I wanted LO #4 to think that I was an “OK Guy.” Those faded.
There’s a great line in The Mountain Goats, “No Children:”
“And I hope when you think of me years down the line
You can’t find one good thing to say”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdkHECP7Y4w
I’m pretty sure LO #2 will remember me. Despite telling me she’d always be grateful to me for opening her eyes to what was happening, I doubt LO #4 will.
As for encouragement, the best I can give you is to ride it out. You going to have bad days, some of them really bad. You try to not let the bad days spill over and interfere with your life. You hope nothing triggers you. It will take everything you have in you not to contact them or, at least, check up on them on social media.
But, after awhile, there are fewer triggers, the bad days come less frequently and are less intense. Success goes from hours to days, days to weeks, weeks to months. If you keep going, you can measure success in years.
You may never be entirely free of your LO. They may always be in your head. But, they settle at a level that you can live with.
LiS – this must be so painful. Having followed your story i cannot imagine what this pain would be like.
I agree with many of the comments above that there is no doubt in my mi d that she cares deeply for you but is now trying to protect herself. You should understand that is the only thing she is trying to do.
We are here and hopefully this brings an opportunity for change on your side too, even though it may take time.
Hang in there, Lost in Space. You are strong and you will get through this. I have a guess what she’s thinking, but it wouldn’t be helpful for me to say it to you. She is trying to do the right thing. Let me share something that might be helpful.
LO1 and I got too close emotionally for a few months in 2001. The intensity of our relationship escalated rapidly and nothing good was ahead. I knew that I couldn’t have him in my life if I couldn’t have normal contact with him so I faked indifference. It was hard. So hard. I faked it so well that we got to a place where I was able to nurse my newborn during game night with the spouses without leaving the game table. In 2008, when we got too close again, he told me that during the years of me faking indifference, he thought I had forgotten about “us” but I can assure you that I remembered and it haunted me. I was white-knuckling it the whole time. I didn’t want to lose him from my life and the only relationship I could have was an appropriate relationship so that is what I aimed for. If I sensed him pushing boundaries, I became cold so he would back down. But before I started that behavior, we had so many talks about how our relationship wasn’t right but our feelings were intense and we tried to figure out how to manage. Well, I decided that I couldn’t have an intense emotional connection to another man so either I had to cut him out of my life or I had to have a normal relationship with him. I chose to aim for normal. It looked good on the surface, but I suffered for years and hid it from everyone. You know how the hormones of Limerence make you wonder if you’ve met your soul mate? I wondered that. I think it’s foolish now, but I definitely wondered if there was a supernatural connection between me and LO1.
What I hope you understand is that what really matters is your LO is doing the right thing. Regardless of how she feels, she is trying to be appropriate. She already said the words that you long to hear. If she said them again, it would make the situation worse. She doesn’t want to hurt you, but she REALLY doesn’t want to hurt your families. She is putting the greater good ahead of her emotions. I admire her for it. I’m sorry it hurts. I suspect she is sorry it hurts, too.
Fast forward a few years and you will be incredibly grateful that you managed not to blow up any families over this. I am grateful for my SO. He is a wonderful man and I feel lucky to have him. We are closer than ever. It is amazing how marriages get better and better over time. I didn’t think it could get better because it was already so good, but we continue to grow closer and more in love as time passes.
Hang in there, Lost in Space. You will get through this. You love a good endurance challenge. Use your addiction recovery skills combined with your endurance skills and you will win this challenge. I believe in you.
“You know how the hormones of Limerence make you wonder if you’ve met your soul mate? I wondered that. I think it’s foolish now, but I definitely wondered if there was a supernatural connection between me and LO1.”
I totally understand that feeling! LO and I talked many times about feeling like we were soulmates, like this was some meant-to-be connection and destiny that brought us together. Even just a few weeks ago, shortly before she asked for NC, we had a little text exchange, I forget the context, but I’d said something like “we’re really different in some ways but really alike in other ways” and she responded with “I think we’re really alike. It’s like we found our other person”.
And I think that feeling is such a dangerous part of limerence! It was one of the things that I used to rationalize a lot of behavior that under normal circumstances I wouldn’t ever have tried to rationalize to myself. Y’know, like, telling myself that if it was just lust or attraction, then it would be totally wrong to be sneaking around carrying on this secret relationship with another woman behind my wife’s back, but this is different man, because it’s like fate and destiny and stuff and she’s actually my one true soulmate and we’re meant to be together if only circumstances weren’t keeping us apart! Even a couple months later that seems pretty crazy, but for awhile there, those thoughts made complete sense to me and had me on the verge of plunging into a full blown affair and even thinking about if I’d leave my wife of 20 years for this woman.
I’ve been so very fortunate to have this website to explain how these feelings are basically my brain using a bunch of neurochemicals to trick me, probably due to some primal instinct to mate and pass on my DNA – that sounds a lot less romantic, right? And then my psychologist telling me about anima projection and again it’s my unconscious mind playing tricks on me. And honestly there’s still a part of me that believes that LO is my true soulmate and that we’re somehow supernaturally connected, but at least now I have some alternative explanations that actually make a lot more sense to my rational mind, and that helps to turn down the volume of the “she’s your true destiny” voice enough that I can ignore it and not follow it to destruction.
Hi Lost in Space,
I can relate to what you said. I haven’t been able to wrap my mind around anima projection, I am still trying to see how it applies to my limerence. I appreciate how you explained it in a previous comment. That helped a lot. Thank you.
I have been able to fully grasp that there is no such thing as a soul mate. At least four men have triggered that feeling in me and I triggered it in them. If I actually had a soulmate, the math wouldn’t make sense. LO2 talked about it and I told him it isn’t real and not to let anyone have that kind of power over him. At that time, I already understood how destructive it can be to believe that your LO is a soulmate. When someone believes that, they let themselves cross more boundaries because they believe that being with their soulmate is the right thing to do. It’s not. No one has a soulmate. At best, someone might only have the soulmate feeling for one person and they might believe that person is their soulmate. It isn’t true. Another person could trigger that feeling it just hasn’t happened yet. Do you remember if you had the soulmate feeling with previous LOs or your wife?
I agree that Dr. L’s explanation of Limerence hormones helps ground us in reality. I am grateful that a neuroscientist built this website and not a philosopher. I don’t know if you read Agne’s story in a previous article. She is a philosopher who restructured her family within a few weeks of discovering her limerence and years later she was sad that her LO, who had become her husband, lost his glimmer. I feel sympathy for her, but she did rebel against society’s norms so she kind of got what she deserved. I think it is arrogant for someone to believe that their situation is different and they can break the rules by restructuring their family. It is just a chemical reaction and none of us is special enough to get away with changing the rules. I’m rambling. I have insomnia. But I do understand that the emotions involved in limerence are so intense that a person might do things that are completely out of character. It is the reason I am involved on LwL and I watch a lot of Marriage Helper videos. I am weak and foolish, but I don’t want to be weak and foolish. I don’t want to do something that will harm others. This community helps me stay grounded. I hope that someday I will learn my lessons and graduate from my own limerence, but I am not there yet. I’m still rambling. Sorry. Thanks for listening. I’m going to stop rambling and snuggle my pug. He is watching me with longing eyes. Maybe I’m his soulmate. Kidding!
Lost in space, hi. Don’t fret so much to know how LO feels now. It’s a very painful situation. She’s must be breaking inside but has to put up a strong front. I have been there, believe me. When I walked away from my bf and he said if we could stay friends I coldly said -yes we can. But all I wanted to say was how can I be friends w/you when I love so much? It’s women’s pride, our ego that takes over but inside my heart was bleeding… He called me one more time to say that “I have never before loved another woman more than I loved you, and my answer was: it’s too late now”. Of course I didn’t want to say that!!!! I was broken inside but I had to be strong, cold and indifferent if this relationship was to end. We were both single then but I was holding a grudge abt our relationship not going anywhere. I was afraid he was distancing from me a little bit. I’m an introvert and didn’t have the conversation to clarify things, instead ran away…
Long story short, after 49 years of NC I got a hold of his telephone numberand called
him. What an intense emotional moment! He remembered me ,we swapped stories, etc. Of course we both have SOs ,we’re old folks now with grandchildren. As we talked he said to me “that I wasn’t patient, have you waited a little longer our lives would have been different now.” And added, it was not meant to be, was fate , maybe God.” I know I was hasty and behaved cowardly but I was young and naive and felt hurt and resentful then. Now it is really too late!!! I developed limerence for LO last summer when I had a dream about him. That’s when I started looking for his phone and got it. I was very hesitant to call him and debated for five month before I called him. Just talked to him twice because the thoughts of him won’t set me free day and night. Cannot call often because his wife answers his phone and I suspect he told her and she’s vigilant now. So I don’t dare call again … though he said it’s ok to call because we’re friends. He’ll never be my friend. He’s my beloved,and I told him so. Also told him he cannot call me because my SO is always around me. I don’t want my SO to know about this and hope these thoughts of him go away soon. He’s the love of my life and I chrerish his memories very much. It hurts but you learn to live with it, hopefully. Wishing you all the strength you might need to recover, eventually you will. Lots of luck to you and family.
Thanks Nisor. Your story is incredible – ongoing limerence after 49 years! I find it really romantic in a tragic way that you still consider him your beloved after so long. I’m curious – did you think about him frequently for all of those years, or did he leave your mind for much of that time only for the memories and emotions to resurface when you had that dream?
Lost in space, hi! When I walked away from my bf/now LO, I clammed up, that is, I stored everything in a corner of my heart… I set my self to do new things, also concentrated in my work, got so tired didn’t have time to think. Actually, I didn’t mourn the relationship. I had friends to support me and go out. I had a future before me and was very hopeful to find someone new. (I was, still I am a beautiful women, my SO says I look like Rita Hayworth in the movie “Gilda”), so, after three years of the break up I got married, was not Limerent for SO, but we had a wonderful life together, sexually and otherwise, very adventurous… Never thought of my ex(LO) during these 49 years UNTIL that strange dream, it was like a movie where he took me from
A crowd, held my hand and we walked away together through a wide dirt road in the forest… The moment I woke up my mind was flooded with sweet memories of LO and won’t let my mind free. By the third day I was terrified my mind was hijacked and had no control of my thoughts! I knew something was very wrong, never had this intrusive thoughts before. I thought of telling my SO, but how could I. He will not understand. Also thought of telling a friend who is a psychologist, and her husband too, but they are common friends. No dice. I was concern I would have a nervous breakdown so I started talking anti-anxiety pills and sleeping pills. They helped but the intrusive thoughts won’t leave. For ten months it was pure hell, the movie rolling day and night. I have cried intensely and took time in my bedroom to let the mind run its course freely. Now is much better, I have more control of my thoughts, as before I was only present like a ten percent, my life was centered on LO. Everything reminded me of him. Thank God I don’t work for it would have affected my work performance. I’m expecting time will be the cure for it and the barriers of not being able to communicate by phone or text.( He has an old phone, seems he’s not tech savvy, IDK.) I thought that maybe we could stay friends and talk at least twice a month, but circumstances are what they are which aggravates the outcome for a final closure Before any one of us die.
I’m also wondering , since I’m an old lady now, would this be how Alzheimer starts?
Pls forgive the mistakes for English is not my language of origin. It’s 40 years now I live in small country in Europe where English is not the local language, and I have to struggle with three languages everyday in order to keep in contact with the locals, friends and relatives. It’s exausting! Maybe that helped me to keep LO away from
my mind all those years, by trying to learn a new language and get used/investigate other culture.
This site has helped me stay grounded and I like reading other stories like yours, there’s so much humanity and humbleness in them, so much feelings that are not mundane…
We’re special species. Sending all lots of love which is the commodity most needed in this particular times.
I had a better day today. Didn’t see LO at all which was good. Only cried once (ok, twice – but only one of them was a real good cry)
At the end of the day I was finishing some work emails and there was one from LO – I’d emailed her earlier in the day asking for help with something, she’d emailed back saying she took care of it, I wrote back saying thank you, and she responded with You’re welcome 🙂 And of course, like any good limerent I spent a good 5 minutes looking at the 🙂 and wondering if that meant she was starting to warm up to me again. Finally I just had to start laughing at myself, and it felt good to actually find some humor in the situation just thinking about how ridiculous it all is
Anyway, looking forward to a nice weekend hanging out with the family and hopefully not thinking about LO too much. Hope y’all have great weekends too
I mean, seriously… can you think of anything more ridiculous than a 40 year old highly respected medical doctor getting himself all in a tizzy because his records clerk put a smiley face emoji at the end of a “you’re welcome” message? I mean, wtf… Sometimes you just have to stop and laugh at yourself because it’s all just so incredibly ridiculous
Lol…I had the same experience today. I asked LO if she wanted to get a few extra hours work from home this weekend and she said “sure, I will try my best 😀” Then I told her thank-you, I appreciate it and she ❤️ emoji that and told me to have a great weekend!!! 3 exclamation points.
I just laughed at the whole craziness of it all, my limerent brain spinning.
Summer
I agree another talk would probably help. I don’t know for sure how she feels about my guilt. And I don’t even know if it justified. I just know it is what I should do because morally (by the morals I was raised with) it tells me I crossed lines I shouldn’t have with a woman. I was just seeking a friendship with someone that seemed to need a friend at the time. I don’t know if my actions crossed a line, that is something I only care to know if my wife thinks I did.
Summer you are dealing with an entire childhood of conservative christian (not trying to bad mouth religion just mine) upbringing. Some of these things so ingrained in me that I can even see the reality of some situations. Just the immediate guilt of what I “know” is wrong.
And I am the same with presents. My wife bought me a pocket watch (I have quite a few already) for Christmas and I felt selfish that I had earlier in the year said something about wanting to get another one. Gifts aren’t an easy thing for me to accept.
“I’m not sure what actual behaviors you are doing that would need stop. Am I missing something?”
The only actual thing I can think of is the talking in my sleep. Though my wife was telling me last night that the previous night I was really restless and talked a lot but she never said I mentioned LO. Which I have previously done.
“What if perpetuating the guilt is actually not letting you get over having intrusive thoughts? What if in order to actually stop thinking about LO you need to forgive yourself and move on?”
I read your post before I left work yesterday and was thinking a great deal on this. I got to wondering if making myself felt guilty is somehow one last ditch hope to holding on to LO? If I feel guilty than the thoughts of her won’t leave. Makes me wonder how much am I over my limerence? If I am still trying to hold on. Like the rope that’s cutting off your circulation but you keep holding on to it. I don’t know. But it made me think, do I really want to get over this? Or at some subconscious level I can’t/don’t want to? I can get that and I appreciate you bringing up that point as it does make me think, and not something I had really thought about myself.
As far as your being stuck on my intrusive thoughts after so long. I guess I would attribute that to I’m terrible at goodbyes. I miss her. And I hate that I can’t (and I don’t think she would mind) call her and just check in with her. I just thought I was making a friend at first. But I can’t do that. For her sake especially. And accepting that is very difficult. I don’t make friends as an adult much. So when I connect with someone and then they leave I have a hard time moving on.
I don’t know if this is relevant, but in any relationship outside of romantic, co-worker, friendship, etc I find it so much easier to talk and connect with women over men. That’s just an in general thing with my relationships. My wife’s family always commented on how close my relationship with my mother in law (my wife’s biological mother who has since passed) was almost right off the bat.
Thank you for taking the time to give so much thought to your post Summer. I greatly appreciate and I know it is helping me move forward. I also appreciate you being candid and saying what is on your mind. It something I appreciate because I struggle to do it myself. Take care of yourself, I am going to play some Xbox with my son. Helps keep my mind off LO.
Song of the Day: “Have You Looked Into Your Heart” – Jerry Vale (1965)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM6ZjEfn8EY
The 60s were a great era for these tunes.
I’ve found myself experiencing two desires this weekend that I recognize as natural yet completely unhealthy. One is to somehow make sure my LO knows how badly I miss her and how badly I’m hurting inside since she asked for complete NC (and honestly, wanting to hear that it’s equally hard for her too). The other, which has taken me more by surprise, has been a desire to disclose everything to my SO – that’s something new I’ve been feeling just these past couple of days after months of only wanting to keep everything a secret from her forever.
I recognize that both of these desires, while likely completely normal things to feel at this stage in the end of an emotional affair, must never be indulged in real life. They would both be selfish attempts to relieve some of my own pain by transferring it to someone else. The idea of disclosing to my SO, in particular, would serve no benefit, would hurt her tremendously, and might even be fatal to our marriage. So I know I just need to recognize these desires for what they are, think a bit on what’s driving them, but never actually act on them
Today I imagined myself driving my car on a very narrow single-lane mountain rode, with steep cliffs on either side and no guard rails. The person I want more than anything else in this world is behind me, and every mile I drive forward takes me farther from her. But any attempt to turn the car around and drive back towards her would result in plunging off a cliff to certain destruction
“He pulled the mirrors off his Cadillac
Cuz he don’t like looking like he looks back”
Only one way to go now and that’s forward, and to just trust that whatever’s out there ahead of me will be worth it even if I can’t see it clearly yet
I saw LO very briefly today. I took a little walk by myself at lunch (ruminating about LO as usual) and as I was walking back to the building a car slowed down beside me, LO rolled down her window and gave me a wave and a big smile and a friendly “hey you!” I smiled and gave her a wave back and she drove off to park. That was the full extent of our interaction today.
It took me everything I had not to text her afterward but I stayed strong and didn’t do it. I definitely spent the rest of the day filled with that terrible ache from wanting her. And of course I spent all afternoon thinking about “what did that mean?” I mean, she easily could have driven right by without any interaction… Is she thawing towards me? Does she appreciate that I’m respecting her boundaries so she’s allowing herself to show a little more friendliness? Does she miss me and decided to allow herself just a tiny bit of contact? Did she spend the rest of the afternoon fighting the urge to text me too? Or did she go about her afternoon without another thought about me?
Obviously I’ll never know, just like all of us whose favorite game is “guess what LO is thinking”. I’m just taking it as a positive that she isn’t being hostile to me or completely ignoring me, so hopefully we’re on track for the “good ending” that I want so badly. I think as long as I can just keep respecting her boundaries, not initiate any contact, and not freak out and go overboard when she initiates contact, we should make it to her last day on good terms.
Hi Lost in Space, I’ll give my best guess to answer your questions.
“Is she thawing towards me?”
Her coldness is an attempt to create a healthy distance between the two of you. If you respect her boundaries, she’ll feel safe to be warm.
“Does she appreciate that I’m respecting her boundaries so she’s allowing herself to show a little more friendliness?”
Yes!
“Does she miss me and decided to allow herself just a tiny bit of contact?”
That probably isn’t how she sees it. Your LO sounds unselfish. I don’t think she would treat herself to a little Lost in Space unless she felt confident that it wouldn’t interfere with her goal of establishing healthy boundaries.
“Did she spend the rest of the afternoon fighting the urge to text me too?”
Probably.
“Or did she go about her afternoon without another thought about me?”
Highly unlikely.
Those are my guesses. Of course I can’t speak for her. It sounds like you have a good strategy in place. I’m so proud of you, Lost in Space! You have come far in your LE.
Thanks Lovisa. Both this comment and your last response to me were really helpful to provide context and understanding for her behavior towards me. I feel myself gradually losing the feelings of hurt/rejection/anger that I’d be feeling after she asked for NC, and at this point am mostly just feeling a lot of sadness about missing her and the closeness we had, but without the sharper edge of resenting her for not wanting to continue with me. It’s definitely not wrong for her to decide not to continue in an emotional affair with a married man!
I’ve noticed several times throughout our relationship that she became colder or more withdrawn following episodes of boundary pushing. Sometimes it was after I pushed the boundaries. Other times it has been after she pushed the boundaries and I failed to provide resistance – there have been a few times I can think of when she suggested things that clearly were inappropriate and dangerous (hanging out alone in my office, using psychedelic mushrooms together in the woods!!!) and I offered minimal resistance and in fact agreed to it (telling myself I’d just let it go a little further but still stop before crossing the ultimate line) and then I think she got scared that things were going to get out truly of control and that I wasn’t going to be the one to stop us, so she turned cold to pull us both back from the ledge.
In your previous comment, you said that she is trying to be appropriate. She herself has used that particular word a lot so I think you’re right on. Right after disclosure, she apologized for being inappropriate by starting all of the texting and finding excuses to see me all the time. I can think of a few times later when she said something that indicated she wanted to push things to the next level, and then quickly followed up with “sorry that was inappropriate”. And in her last ever text to me, she said that continuing to talk and text would “not be appropriate” for either of our SOs. So I think you’re likely spot on with your assessment of what’s going on in her mind – she really doesn’t want to hurt anyone (including me and her), but she especially doesn’t want to hurt any innocent people (like my wife and kids), and doesn’t want to continue to be in the position where she feels so guilty about being inappropriate to my wife.
I honestly got really lucky that my LO is a fundamentally decent person with good morals, who is unselfish enough to put other peoples’ feelings above her own desires. It could have turned out so much worse if she’d been a different person than she is, so I’ll have to remember to always be grateful to her for being as strong and morally sound as she’s turned out to be.
As always, Lost in Space, that was very well said. Thank you for following up with additional details. I admire your LO for putting the needs of others ahead of her own. I want to address the feeling of rejection because you will probably cycle back through it. Of course I don’t actually know what your LO is thinking, but based on what you’ve shared, she isn’t rejecting you, she is rejecting the situation. I’m sorry you have to endure withdrawal symptoms. I don’t know how long the pain will last. I suspect there will be good moments and bad moments.
Let’s also address that we (I am included) are grateful that your LO has high standards. You got lucky. We need to face it that she probably isn’t your last LO. You have dreams of a strong marriage to your current SO well into retirement (remember the RV trips?). So did you learn anything from this experience that will help you safe-guard your marriage?
Your awareness is inspiring!
“It’s definitely not wrong for her to decide not to continue in an emotional affair with a married man!”
Yes, this! Our disappointment is so great sometimes that it is a dose of reality to realize that our LOs cutting back is the decent thing to do. And that we try to cut back because it is the decent thing to do.
We should be proud and grateful, rather than ashamed and angry and rejected. Everyone is behaving decently and taking the high road. Our feelings are us railing at the Universe for the predicament we are in, not really our LOs!
“Our feelings are us railing at the Universe for the predicament we are in, not really our LOs!”
Yes, sometimes I feel like I’m actually a petulant toddler throwing a tantrum because I can’t have everything I want. Why can’t I have my marriage and my family and also have LO in my life forever? But I want both of them! Why can’t I have what I want? Don’t I deserve to be happy? I work hard, I’m a good guy… It’s not fair!!!
My psychologist told me last week “if you lived in Italy and you were wealthier and your wife was more accepting of infidelity, then maybe you could put LO up in a nice villa somewhere and keep her as your long term mistress. But since none of those things are true, you’re just gonna have to choose one woman or the other, and I think you know which is the right choice”.
Touché.
Hello Fellow Limerents. I am new to this forum. Very happy to have found you all. Just found it a few days ago and have been fascinated by the amount of posting on the subject. I guess I never figured there were so many others out here who grapple with this issue. I must admit also, I am quite jealous of so many of you, who seem to have daily, regular contact with your LO. I would so love to have that problem too. (Hope it’s ok to say that, but you’ll read why I think that way)
Up until about July of last year, I didn’t really consider limerence an issue myself. Or even knew what it was. Until I started realizing a Work Crush I somehow developed, was something way more different than any Crush I’ve ever felt toward any one Female, in my entire life…
If I remember correctly, I found a clip on YouTube about how to stop obsessing over People. The subject of Limerence came up and then I started to realize, this was, what I was stumbling into.
To begin, I am a 52 year old, divorced Father of 2 grown children. My marriage ended in 2011 for reasons I won’t go into now, but it was amicable and her and I remain friends. Looking back on my life, I have probably dealt with limerence with other females, but never to the extent of which this major LE was about to take off. (Mind you, my divorce had nothing to do with limerence.) I consider my story here anticlimactic
I currently work in a Manufacturing setting, where I work as a Tech. on the main floor.
The future LO started as a new Employee early in January of 2022, where she works as an Analyst in the office.
I saw her in there one day and didn’t get the best look at her, but had noticed from a distance, she looked to be somewhat cute. She was talking to a Manager and I never really got any closer, but figured I would see her again over time.
A few days later, as she was coming in to work, I passed her in the corridor, that leads to the office. It was at this point I got a really good look at her and saw what a cutie she was.
I wouldn’t say the glimmer started right then. If anything, what I first thought was, she was completely out of my league. She was young, with no wedding ring on her fingers, very attractive and well dressed. (Which has always been what I like about her most.) She has a very tasteful and classy style, in which she dresses and presents herself. She is definitely different in that way. That is probably why I never really took my eye off her completely. I just never gave her much thought. Because her type would never go for someone like me. Or at least that’s what I thought.
Now at this time, I was sort of in a situationship, with a former co-worker from my last company. We were never exclusive and trying to make it go was something I was growing tired of. So by April of that year, her and I more or less separated. I had a few other females I was talking to, but never really getting anywhere with them that I had hoped. It was depressing me, but I kept my options open. Hoping something might present itself with someone at some point.
In this time, I was seeing cute office girl every day, in her pretty clothes and attractive hairstyles. Nails she always kept perfectly manicured and perfume that was just the amount of right on her. I still wasn’t thinking anything much more of her than just that. Simply because I know I’m not her type. I can’t be. We had passed each other, a number of times already in 4 months and we never even really looked at each other. I never thought much of her at all. Other than she was still attractive and still out of my league.
Finally one day we passed in the corridor and she was friendly enough to say hi. I said hi back. It was our first interaction. There was nothing overdone about it. We never introduced ourselves to each other. Or said anything more. It was a simple hello and all I thought to myself was, she seemed friendly enough. I kind of left it at that.
By about June, my hopes of starting a new relationship with anyone, were fading. My options were running thin to almost non-existent. Cute office girl was looking good but I was still out of that league. But in the back of my mind I started thinking, “what if??”
In the few short days that followed, I kept walking by her in the office. Noticing her a little more and still thinking, “what if??” The idea of it seemed so unlikely. How would I start this? I had no clue. Until it came to me, I should just start staring at her. And maybe see if she’ll catch my eye. It might just work. It couldn’t hurt to try. But I never expected any return on her part.
On a Monday in Mid July, I executed my plan and on each break I took during my day, I would walk by and check her out in the office. Trying hard not to make it too obvious. By the end of that first day, she caught me looking her way once, but seemed indifferent. I wasn’t giving up though. It was only a Monday.
The next day, I continued my efforts and kept on purposely passing her on my breaks, catching her eye every now and then, and the interactions were nothing more than that. I was already surprising myself with how easy it was to get her to see me and it felt good to be noticed. I was kind of beside myself. The next few days consisted of the same thing. We would look at each other upon my passing and I was enjoying her sometimes taking 2nd glances at me. I was super excited now and would have to admit at this point, I was in total glimmer phase. By Friday of that week, I walked by her at the end of my day and she smiled at me. It was like a meteorite hit my heart. I fell hard for her, like a plane dropping out of the sky. Not only was she super attractive, but totally, not so out of my league now. Or so I thought. At this point, I now consider her the LO. I felt elation like never before. I went into that weekend dancing a jig. I couldn’t believe it. I was so happy and totally beside myself. I felt like I was totally on the verge of getting this super hot, attractive Colleague of mine, actually interested in me. She hijacked my mind and ever since that day, she has been the only person I think about morning, noon and night. No other Woman on this earth even remotely interests me more than my LO. Cupid hit me hard with that meteorite. I question if I will ever be the same again.
The following week, it was more of the same thing, where my LO and I would notice each other around and on one occasion, she came outside on break at the same time I did. I thought we might finally get a chance to talk. I saw her walking my way and I said “hey, how are you?” She replied, “good” and kept on walking toward where her car was. I was taken back somewhat. Had I already misread something? We were looking at each other I thought, and I was trying to start a conversation. Why didn’t she want to stop and talk?
More weeks go on by and she continues noticing me pass by her office window. Sometimes looking away quick and then sometimes staring back at me. There were times I wouldn’t even initiate the stare and I would catch her already staring at me. This continued on for another week or so and then on another occasion I caught her going on break. I said “hi” to her. She said “hey”, kinda cold-like and kept on walking. It almost felt like I was bugging her. Thing is, I didn’t want to believe nothing was going to happen. I had already fallen hard for her. There was just simply too much eye contact between us. Yet that is almost exactly what does happen.
In the days and weeks ahead, I would walk by her window, trying to get her to notice me and any time she would, I felt like it was progress. Not a word had to be said, but if she looked, I thought she was giving me a sign. Like maybe she’s really into me but doesn’t know what to say. I would look at her every day and fall more and more in love with her beauty all the time. She was and still is the most beautiful Woman in the known Universe, hands down. I can find nothing wrong with her. She’s picture perfect and then some, as far as I’m concerned. (Yes, I know we all think that of our LO’s.)
I found out from one of her friends, she was only 27 years old and divorced. I tried telling this friend of hers, that I was interested, hoping she might tell the LO, but she kind of shot that down and thought I was too old for the LO. So I found out fast I couldn’t rely on her for any help. Whether or not this friend ever mentioned this to my LO, I’ll never know.
I also found out the LO was seeing another colleague in the building, but it didn’t seem serious. Her social media states she’s not currently in a relationship, so I figure they must just be friends, but would I ever know? They hang out now and then. Thats about all I still know. There are no pictures of them together on her pages. But that may just mean she wants to keep her relations private.
In the weeks and months ahead, there were more stares, mutual eye contact, and occasions where we would pass each other in the parking lot outside. Upon my getting closer to her, she would somehow manage to always be busy talking on or looking at her phone.
Back inside the plant, I would sometimes see her about on the floor and would walk her way. When she would see me approaching, she would turn around or make a quick right or left to go the other way. This happened on a number of occasions, either by the office restrooms, or by the gate to go in or out of the building.
It seemed that any interaction outside of her office, that she perceived as my approach, she would go out of her way to derail. And I would end up doing nothing because her body language told me not to approach. Yet it could even be that same day, hours later, I could walk by her office, catch her stare or she would notice me looking at her. Again it was her eye contact fueling my limerence. Why was this so hard?? Its like the office was her safe zone, where she figured I wouldn’t come into. And while the office is not off limits, I wasn’t going to ever go in there anyway and potentially embarass her. Its a quiet office with cubicles. Nothing would be private anyway and I didn’t want Colleagues in on my business.
Sometimes I would see her completely spot me in a place that she wasn’t expecting to see me in or at and I could sense some tension on her part. She would then do an about-face. Even when we would both take break at the same time and drive down to Dunkin, she would see me get behind her in my car at the stoplight, and then when the light would turn green, she would speed off purposely to get in another lane, just to get away from me. Because I know she thought I was following her. I guess I was, but it wasn’t to annoy.
I would see her sitting in her car at break by herself and there were times I thought to approach but something kept telling me not to. Other times I would stay vigilant for her to come out on break, or at least pass her in the corridor, going to break. Sometimes that would happen, but her body language shut me down, telling me to stay in my lane. Yet again though later on, from back in the office, I would get dead lock-on stares from her. Which made me feel like a million dollars. Even though the look on her face was indifference, I still wondered why she was staring. Was she just curious or thought I was a mystery to her? What more did she need to know and what could I do to make this work?? And why above all, wouldn’t she let me ever approach her freely, outside her office?
Fast forward to January of this year. Her Manager transferred out of the plant to a Satellite building our company operates next door. My LO eventually was courted out by him, to come over there to work under him again, and in February she did just that. When I saw her packing up her desk, I felt the greatest urge to go and stop her. But I didn’t. I figured confronting or exposing my feelings for her would just make both of uncomfortable. So I never even got to shoot my shot. She has since left the building. I have been devastated to say the least. Every day since then, I have cried over her. Sometimes for hours at a time. Sometimes it’s hard to even fight back the tears going in to work. I’m literally that depressed now. I don’t think I cried this much after losing my Mother 4 years ago. This is a new level of grief.
Thing is, is that this has been a new level of Crush for me and a learning experience all at the same time. I say that because I think I learned to read cues really well, while stepping up my game and trying to be a suitable candidate for this beautiful LO thats 24 years younger than me. I really began to think I was her type because I saw a picture of her ex husband and he was a big guy. The Colleague she sees currently is built like me too. So if anything, I do think she likes bigger Dudes.
My days are spent there now gripped in a lot of sadness. Remembering all the places I would see her around there. Where I caught that whiff of her perfume, the office I saw her beautiful smile in, or even places she parked her car outside. See an empty parking space makes me cry. It’s truly depressed me all to this level.
I would see her around the building with her friends and they would say hi to me, but my LO never did. It was like she totally forgot I was ever nice to her. Yet she still always noticed me looking at her. I hope I wasn’t being a Creep. I was only trying to read her cues. Which told me to stay quiet. How could someone who does these things fuel such a raging fire in me?
I never ever crushed like this on anyone. I’m still not over her and question if I ever will be.
My thinking is, she knew I was into her but she has never felt the same.
The problem is I have totally fallen for her and I don’t want it to stop.
I sometimes see her out going to her car next door and her hours are still pretty much the same. I could go over there and meet her in the parking lot before or after work, but I wonder how that might turn out. I know she knows I’m still around because she knows my car. And I know she sees me when I drive by. I just miss her so much. The tears I cry endlessly really hurt, yet at the same time, I’m strangely drawn to them because even in this great sadness, I’m still so madly in love with the thought of loving her. And even in tears, she still somehow makes me happy. Even though it is a very empty, unfulfilling happiness.
I keep pictures of her on my nightstand. I kiss them first thing when I wake up in the morning, and last thing before I go to sleep at night. I have a whole playlist of 200+ songs on my iTunes dedicated to her under her name. Many of which have her name in the song and I sing them to her in the car, loud and proud, all the time. Even though she’s never there to hear me. I write poetry about her everyday now too. Either about her beauty, or how I miss her, or how sexual I’d Iove to be with her. Yet I’ll never send them to her. I’ve debated sending her flowers next door. Yet I believe that would probably freak her out. Her knowing or thinking they were from me could just be another nail in the coffin. I don’t know. But I don’t want to irritate or make her hate me.
I don’t ever blame her for moving on or not being into me, but I like to think she was and still could be. If only I could get to her again.
Anyway, I could probably go on some more, but it’s late and I need to sleep. Those were the highlights. Hopefully I will dream of my LO tonight because I won’t be seeing her in the office at work in the morning. Obviously.
So Sad…
Hello Mj, thank you for sharing your story. Your feelings are intense. Some of your behaviors are making it worse. I will address those things in a tough love way because I think it will help you, but first…
I try to put myself in the LO’s shoes when I read posts from the men on LwL. I try to offer a female perspective in hopes that the male Limerent can make sense of how his LO is experiencing the situation. Based on what you shared, I think your LO might feel threatened by you. I think you are scaring her. I know that is hard to hear, but I became more and more alarmed as I read your post. I would encourage you to toss her pictures in the garbage, and stop engaging in behaviors that remind you of her. Please use the resources on this website to cure your limerence. You mentioned that you are friends with your ex wife. If you can, please talk to her about what you are experiencing because it would be helpful to talk to someone in person who knows you well. If not your ex wife, talk to a close friend or therapist. Please keep coming back here because we can help you get through this. Your limerence for a younger female coworker is common and we have some men here who can relate.
Do you have a community like church or a friend group where you get some socializing? Let’s see if we can find some healthy ways for you to get your needs met.
Best wishes!
Ms. Lovisa, thank you for responding. Forgive me for not getting back here sooner.
You are correct that your tough love approach would be hard to hear. Which is a lot of the reason I had to withdraw and think on that for a few days.
I admit my feelings for LO are very strong. And I know that I don’t necessarily think straight when she’s first and foremost in my thoughts. Which is usually 80 to 90% of my day.
I justify my limerence because my last relationship really wasn’t even that. I also have a ton of regrets for my divorce in 2011, which is a whole other soap opera in and of itself. (And would make this reply 80 times longer than it really needs to be.) However couple all that with fact I currently take care of an aging Father, who is seriously on the demise. I then deal with an angst-ridden teenage Daughter who practically hates me because of the divorce and various other outcomes surrounding it.
I feel like being limerent is my only escape. Even in the face of what seems like and probably is obvious rejection, I refuse to get her out of my mind. Due to that when I think of her or what I would like us to be, all my other issues disappear. Of course this isn’t healthy, but my options are that low to almost non-existent it feels like. I know I’m severely depressed which is probably why I cry all the time. As a 52 year old man, that is embarrassing to admit. But I bawled my eyes out reading your words, that I should just throw my LO pictures in the garbage. It felt like you were asking me to put my arm in a wood chipper. I was extremely crushed. While I get I need to take things down a notch or two, I feel like you’re expectation is that I just shut her off like a light switch. I don’t know if it can be that easy for me. That I would want to. Or if it could be that easy for anyone.
I guess I was kinda hoping that maybe the response you would be able to give from a Woman’s standpoint, was possibly a reason for all the staring my LO will give me, even when I’m not expecting it. Its always the eye contact that drives my limerence full throttle. My thinking is that if she doesn’t care or isn’t interested, then why will I catch her staring at me first sometimes? Between the two of us, it feels like its almost become a game sometimes. Both of us staring at each other, to see who will look away first.
I guess I never wanted to believe she wasn’t interested. Just because she actually would look my way. My belief is she could just ignore me if she wasn’t interested. Not stare and mislead me.
Perhaps tough love is what I need. I realize I am more stubborn now than I ever was. Having an LO is weird. But then again, I’m weird anyway. It’s like she’s an imaginary friend, only she really IS so real and really IS so unavailable to me. It breaks my heart. And I don’t know if I’ve ever been this sad. I know I’ve never cried as much as I have in the last few months.
I have revealed to my ex wife this issue, but I’ve not gone into great detail, as she doesn’t really understand the LE. And really does not care like that. While she doesn’t want to see me hurt, she’s only going to care so much. The divorce was of her doing anyway. I may never get over it. Even though I probably deserved it.
As for Community, I do attend a church regularly, but don’t like to do much socializing.
I met a lady there a few years ago, but wasn’t interested in her like that. It was a different time then.
The situationship with that former girlfriend was in front at that time, and that’s all that mattered.
Currently I am on the hunt for a Therapist. I know I need some one on one. Just hard to do right now while I take care of Dad.
I like what I see in this forum and am grateful to have found it. Dr. L really has his act together on the issue. And the Community seems positive.
Thank you again for your reply. I really appreciate your response and glad you are here for us. I will keep in touch.
MJ, studies show that men tend to read more interest in female behavior than there is, and more than women would read into the same behavior if they are observing it.
I am really sorry you are struggling, I can hear your pain. But your LO is a real person, and your fixation on her is alarming. If she stares at you, she is not “leading you on”; your interpretation of it is leading you on, that is, you are leading yourself on. Your reaction reminds me why women in the past were taught to look down and away – girls are no longer taught this, but men also need to learn that just because a woman looks you straight in the eye as an equal, doesn’t mean she is interested in you.
I am so sorry if I seem too blunt but your description is setting alarm bells off. I’ve had men come on strong when I was just normally friendly (like if I listen attentively to something they are saying or offer them a drink!) and but it can be scary how fast and how strongly they react. I often think it is because they are very very lonely, which I think you may be.
Please dial it back a little from your LO. What you feel for her is more about you than about her. Don’t scare her. And be compassionate to yourself too. Your life sounds pretty tough.
Mj, I’m so glad you came back! I think we can help you. Of course I don’t know your whole story and I am not a professional, but I was able to glean more understanding about your situation from your second post. Thank you for bravely coming back. I’m sorry that you experienced so much discomfort at the thought of scaling back your LE. I can relate to that feeling. When my current LE was fresh, I knew that I was using it for mood regulation and I panicked twice when I thought I had to stop. My step-mom told me that since an attractive man disclosed his attraction to me, I couldn’t be friends with him anymore. I cried. She got emotional, too. And when my LO told me that he was sorry he couldn’t be my friend because he was attracted to me, I thought, “Oh no! I can’t let go yet. I still need my LO or I will get depressed.” He agreed to move forward with our friendship and some extra boundaries. Anyway I’m trying to say that I experienced the fear of letting go of my LE too soon, too.
It sounds like you are using your LE as a mood regulator and an escape. Dr L has articles that you might find helpful.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/using-limerence-for-mood-regulation/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-as-escape/
I also think loneliness is at the core of your limerence. Humans are pack animals, even us introverts need social interactions with other people. Can we brainstorm ways for you to get some friendly socialization?
I would also like to address your guilt about your divorce. I don’t know what happened, but I do know you can repent of anything. What ever it was, I encourage you to use it as a growth opportunity. Repair any damage that you can. Apologize if you can. And forgive yourself. Do your best to be consistent and kind towards your daughter. Someday she might come around.
You asked about eye contact. I like Limmy’s comment about eye contact. But I’ll answer, too. This is going to hurt, so brace yourself. My best guess is that she is assessing your threat level. I think she watches you the way you would watch a mountain Lion if you encounter one in the wild. You would watch it to make sure it isn’t showing signs of threat. I’m so sorry, Mj. I know that’s painful. But I think that is why she stares.
Take some deep breaths. It’s going to be okay. You will get through this. You can find a healthy way to get your needs met. The fantasy of LO is meeting some needs and that is why your feelings are so intense. There are other ways to meet those needs.
I think the three places to focus are mood regulation, escape and loneliness. This LE might be meeting other needs, too. And of course I could be wrong. I will tell you what works for me.
For mood regulation, I run. I have a fancy running watch, Garmin Forerunner 955, which I absolutely love! It plans my runs for me and it provides lots of data. Since I love math, the data fascinates me. Before I got my watch, I used a notebook to record my runs. I had about 5 routes that I ran and I would compare my time on each route to see myself improve. The thing about running is that there are always new questions to answer. It’s exciting because I am learning so much.
For escape, I can watch a YouTube video about running and it will capture my attention and help me escape an unpleasant moment. Sometimes I lean into the uncomfortable feelings and accept that I feel the way I do. Leaning in is probably the healthier response. Lately, the thing I want to escape most is my LE. I don’t want to lean into LO fantasies so I distract myself if I start daydreaming about my LO. But I am further in the process than you. You will get there, too. Oh and this website is a blessing! I used the comments section in place of contact with my LO. I was able to cut way back from contacting him by coming here instead.
For loneliness I am putting effort into healthy friendships. Some of my family members drain my energy so I try to limit contact with them or I try not to get emotionally involved with them. But I make an effort to interact with anyone in my life who I enjoy every chance I get. I recognize that these real life interactions don’t carry the same intensity as a fantasy about LO and I am okay with that. I find that as I take steps away from my LE, I don’t crave it as much.
That is how I am coping. Let’s brainstorm some healthy ways to get your needs met.
Thank you so much for coming back!
Welcome…I echo Lovisa and to be blunt, and on the side of frankness and tough love, you are acting creepy. I think she is probably noticing the creepiness and you are misreading her glances. I completely understand the emotions and compulsion and now that you know what limerence is, please take steps to change your behavior. This site offers unprecedented help on this…soak it all in and keep posting if you need support.
Also, a 27 year old woman is not near the life stage of a 52 year old man. I would think any kind of romantic relationship would be infeasible.
Also, if you make some additional advances on this woman, you might find yourself out of a job. That could be the grim consequence.
Thank you Speedwagon, for your reply. Forgive me for not replying back sooner, as I have had to digest the replies I got from my story. It’s not easy to be told I’m being creepy. Especially when I have positively no creepy intent toward LO. I wouldn’t hurt her in a million years. Yet upon trying look at my action from the other side, I guess I could see why I might cross her mind in a negative way.
To be truthful, I’m just extremely shy. While I wanted to approach and get to know LO, I just became a deer in headlights whenever I would see her. As I mentioned before, the few times I did try to actually speak to LO, I felt I was met with indifference. Which brought on the need to keep staring because I wanted her to know I was interested. And since she was so beautiful, I couldn’t bring myself to stop wanting to try to get that point across..
Probably not the best move, but it was all I knew. I guess I figured if she got sick of me, she could just tell me. And I would retreat.
I never considered her reporting me, because some of those friends of hers, that I mentioned in my story, were actually HR people. If I would pass her on the floor and she was with them, I figured she could have said something to them about me right then and report. So my take is, she might have been a little put-off by me, but not enough to report the issue. Again my goal was to never seem creepy. But I also get that if she really actually wanted to talk to me, she would’ve found a way. I was just an idiot for being too shy. It was probably a turn off. And Creep-ish.
As for the age difference, I get that I’m old enough to be her Dad. I guess in a way I long for that kind of connection, hoping that if it worked out, she would be like a really cool, young Step-Mom or maybe like an older Sister to my Daughter. My Daughter is 17 and seriously full of rage. About my divorce and whatever else she likes to complain about. Any attempt to quell that has failed on my part. I figured LO could be a cool, young, hip person who might help bridge a gap in our damaged relationship. Maybe it’s only wishful thinking. But like my Daughter, LO is into getting her hair and nails done all the time and has an impeccable taste in fashion. My Daughter would probably like her style. The idea of them getting along thrills me completely. All part of the limerent fantasy. LO has since had a birthday. She’s 28 now. But I get thats still young.
I am sorry for how you are feeling MJ, sounds really tough. I am in a similar situation, though a bit farther ahead than you in the recovery process. I am experiencing extremely conflicting behavior from LO, being all friendly on one day, and not even looking towards me when we pass each other. Almost seems like playing a game. At that point I am not sure whether I should greet her or not, then decide not too thinking she wants to keep distance.
To be fair, I have also been cold/aloof during some past interactions. Perhaps both of us realize the consequences, and are trying to pull back/detach, who knows?
I have been limerent for about 1.5 years. Cannot go for NC, as we work in the same place, so try to have controlled interactions. Right now, the issue I am struggling with is the confusion/uncertainty due to hot-cold LO behavior. I do not want to impose on LO, but the cold behavior does disturb now and then. Not being able to go NC makes it worse.
Would really appreciate advice from others on how to handle this unpredictable behavior.
I would say that just try and respect LO behavior, and commit to the recovery process. It’s very hard, but will get better. Good luck.
Thank you Limmy for your insight. You would be correct that the part about leading myself on, is what I have become very good at. My LO has never really shown any signs of being a mean person. That she would just have enough of my staring and then let me have it and/or call me out. I guess I’ve just told myself too much that she must look at me because she is curious and wants me to talk to her. But in reality, am I allowed to even think that??
It’s so crazy how as being limerent, I look for every little clue. I watched LO come outside on break one day as I was walking back in from the parking lot. Had totally not planned to see her, but as she saw and then recognized it was me approaching, she did an about-face and turned around to go talk to some of her office co-workers that were chatting it up on their break by the entrance. As I got closer, she started fidgeting in her hair, like she was so nervous or something. But she was engaged in conversation with them. So I really couldn’t talk and wasn’t going to interrupt. I was just surprised I could make her so nervous, and she made it so obvious.. When all I was doing was being present and going back to my job. I can’t help there is one main entrance and exit for us in the building. Its just how it is. I guess you could say too, I was disappointed that another great opportunity to chat was lost. For whatever reason, she simply didn’t want to talk to me. Very deceiving that I misread every look she ever gave. It never seemed negative on her part. I really wanted to believe there was a spark somewhere in there. Still think she may be shy but I don’t know. Scaring her was never my intent. I wouldn’t hurt her in a million years.
You’re absolutely correct on me about the loneliness. With the drama that I have going on surrounding Dad, and fallout from my divorce (12 years later mind you) I feel like LO is all I have that satisfies me. But to admit that outright, just seems pathetic. Doesn’t it?And it’s no way to live. I still find myself crying like a baby on my way home from work most nights. Crying out LOs name and pounding on the wheel. Asking, begging, where is my God? Is it going to get better? Sometimes I think it won’t and I’m not sure how I feel about that. There is a strange comfort in this misery. Without it, I think I just might be lost. What do you think??
@Lovisa, thank you for the common sense reply..
“My best guess is that she is assessing your threat level. I think she watches you the way you would watch a mountain Lion if you encounter one in the wild. You would watch it to make sure it isn’t showing signs of threat. I’m so sorry, Mj. I know that’s painful. But I think that is why she stares.”
I suppose I can go with that reasoning. Because I fell so hard for LO, I still want to believe it was more than just that though.
I mean, I get how she could feel somewhat threatened, but her eyes never gave me that impression. If anything, Silly Limerent Me went into a haze when our eyes would lock and I would want to dive into them, head first. It was like those cartoons where hearts and stars would twirl around characters’ heads when they would fall for the cute Girl.. Or like Pepe Le Pew, when he would find the girl skunk (actually the cat with the painted white stripe) and would fawn all over her. I could totally want to feel that way with LO. Just an amazing feeling she gives me.
But I guess it’s pointless to rewind. What’s done is done. Just moving away from thinking of her all the time is so hard. I have stuff I can occupy my time with but I often wish she was there to share the space with me.
I’d love to sit at my piano and play for her.
I live close to Lake Michigan and with it being spring, it would be the perfect time to go for a walk with her on the beach. I’m simple like that. I’d like to think she is simple like that too.
Thank you for the articles also. Sounds like you know what what to look for. I appreciate you looking out. I’ll take a look at them this weekend.
Till next time..
“As I got closer, she started fidgeting in her hair, like she was so nervous or something. But she was engaged in conversation with them. So I really couldn’t talk and wasn’t going to interrupt. I was just surprised I could make her so nervous, and she made it so obvious.”
There are many ways to read & interpret body language MJ, so many reasons why people do what they do. I am always amazed at how much I have projected into my LOs every subtle move. Chance mutual eye contact is NEVER chance mutual eye contact to a limerent! It has such an emotional impact on us that we assume the same in them, and are quite capable of growing and lengthening the eye contact in our minds, and projecting subtle facial expression and nuance that is not actually there.
I am sorry to say this, but it sounds like the only evidence you have for any reciprocation is very subtle impersonal body language that can be explained in a myriad of different ways, most of which may be absolutely nothing to do with you. Only assume an LO reciprocates if there is NO OTHER possible explanation that fits. Otherwise, it is safest for a limerent to assume any perceived LO reaction to us is limerent wishful thinking. Your staring at her and often going out of your way to pass her will have been noticed. If she liked you (which is unlikely anyway given the age difference), it would be very easy to make it known to you in a concrete way that is not so subtle as to be meaningless.
I am sorry to point this out to you as it is not what you want to hear. Limerence is so very sneaky, we cannot trust our judgement at all where LOs are concerned. Factual observations, separated from any interpretation, is all we can trust.
I have probably overly laboured my point, again sorry, that is a bad habit of mine!
Wishing you well.
Nope @Allie 1, it’s not what I wanted to hear but it makes perfect sense. Sometimes it’s that whack upside my head that helps. Lord knows I’m not the brightest bulb in the room..
“Sometimes it’s that whack upside my head that helps.”
Clip of the Day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boY7i11aYRA – “NCIS”
@Limerent Emeritus,
Lmao, that’s what I need. And then some.
MJ
While I didn’t have a constant romantic attachment to LO, she was as well significantly younger than me. Unlike you I am still married.
What really sounds familiar and in common with you, I too had/have a significant playlists of songs that remind me of LO. One in particular that helped during and now after my LE that I will share at the end. I have had a very difficult time letting go of the music. Or moving on to other music that is neutral to my limerence.
It will be a year in June since the last time I saw LO. And I am just now coming out of it and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. But it was a long lonely and despairing year. I very much agree with Miss Lovisa on talking to your ex-wife about this. I disclosed to my wife about my LE and LO back in January when I found this community and we are just now at the point where she is reconciling with me and forgiving me. Now I know that part isn’t necessarily a hurdle you have, but being able to talk to my wife about this and her listening helped. There isn’t anyone else, other than my wife and outside of here, I can talk to about limerence because it is a concept difficult for non-limerents to grasp.
I remember the holding on (and in some ways I still am) and not wanting to let go. The despair that you were a part of why LO left. Why she doesn’t contact you. Why one day she could be so super friendly and then the next seem a little distant. And your limerent brain overthinks …. every. single. interaction. To the point that your entire day is her. You forget other people. You can’t concentrate. You can’t function unless it is for LO. Believe me I know. I neglected my wife, my family and others for LO to have space in my head. And as much as I hate admitting it publicly, yes the damn tears.
I could type again what Miss Lovisa said as advice but she said it better. And I agree. Try to nip it the bud now. Don’t let it fester inside you to the point that you get where I did. You may not have a marriage to almost loose like me, but you can’t let the ruminations of LO ruin your life. Yes LO is the most perfect woman. I wanted to defend her honor. Save her from the dangers or the world. And the carnal men of the world that only see a pretty face and not the wonderful woman I saw. Yeah I remember it all. And unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, I don’t see it the way I did then right now. I see my behavior as selfish, embarrassing and destructive to my other relationships. Don’t let LO eat you alive. Your LO. My LO. They are just human women. Not the angels we see them as.
Let Her Go — Passenger
https://youtu.be/UqaApGePWVE
“Staring at the ceiling in the dark
same old empty feeling in your heart
because love comes so slow but goes so fast
well you see her when you fall asleep
but never to touch her and never to keep
cause you loved her too much and you dived too deep”
Adam my Friend, thank you for your very thoughtful reply. I read it twice while I was at work, and it really messed me up. (A good thing mind you).
It’s not easy being there most days now without LO. About the time I read your reply, my day was almost over but I almost felt like leaving early. When quitting time came later, I got in the car and bawled my eyes out. Again..
It happens all the time. But I felt like you totally knew where I was at. The overthinking, every detail, the entire workday revolving around her and thinking of her almost every second. Wanting to hold her close, and intoxicate myself on her scent. That is exactly how it was. And still is to a degree. I like that you seemed to really get this.
With my LO being just over in the building next door now, it makes it that much harder to see her or even get over her. I drive by during the day, just to see her car there and for whatever reason, that satisfies me and I still feel connected to her in some weird way. I haven’t actually seen her in person in weeks, but missing her is just routine now. This is like NC by default, I call it.
If you read any of my other posted replies here, I justify my limerence because my last relationship really wasn’t even that. I also have regrets for my divorce in 2011, which is a whole other soap opera.. Couple all that with fact I currently take care of an aging Father, who is seriously on the demise. I then deal with an angst-ridden 17yo teenage Daughter who practically hates me because of the divorce and many other outcomes surrounding it.
It’s like being limerent is the only joy I get in life. Which sounds so pathetic I know. But looking at LOs picture, or putting on her playlist just takes me away from all the other sadness in my life. I don’t really neglect any of my duties outright, other than maybe when I know Dad is having a rough day. That can be tough going into, but I am an only-child. So by default, I always have to buck-up and take charge. There is nobody else available to do it.
I can identify why being married and limerent is difficult for you. I’m sorry it has affected your marriage.. When I was still married, I probably wasn’t the best husband. Looking back, I was probably mildly limerent for a few female co-workers then, but I really consider those just simple crushes. Where I stepped out of line with only one of them. And only for one night. I know it was stupid and I still feel bad.. It wasn’t the cause of my divorce but it may have been the beginning of the end.
My Ex and I are friends, but we can still get on each others nerves now and then. I considered asking her back awhile ago, but that would’ve been deceitful and there is still so much we would have to work through. Trying to discuss this LE with her is sometimes difficult. She just tells me I really need to get on some medication and see a Therapist. Which I’m slowly working on, but it’s hard to make happen, while dealing with a sick Father.
I liked reading how you seemed to adore your LO and the difficulty you have now entirely letting her go. (That has to hurt) How you want to save her from all the crap men in the world.
I too have a strong desire to keep my LO away from men who are probably no good for her. I try hard not to over-sexualize when I think of her and would say 75% of me does a pretty good job of that. Yet sometimes thinking of LO can make me euphoric for her and I can get wrapped up in that whole perfect love fantasy. I know other men probably see her for that too.
Yet LO seems to not have a lot of guy friends at work and she’s definitely not the common Woman there. She’s not showy and doesn’t appear to ever be too flirtatious. In a sea of average looking Women, my LO totally stands out with her fashion sense. She doesn’t smoke or vape and appears to have no tattoos. She looks Iike a model of perfection. Just like you mentioned in your reply, LO is the most perfect woman.
I try to imagine my life without thinking about her like I do, and the idea of that, scares the hell out of me. When I get wrapped up in a moment or if I’m writing another poem about her, the despair of her being gone sets in again. There is a strange comfort in that despair. I ask God in prayer why my life has devolved to this. To keep humbling me through this and derail some of this limerence by meeting someone better for me. Even though admitting that feels like I’m dis-respecting LO.
Being romantic with LO is not the most necessary thing. If anything I really just wanted to get in her circle. If anything happened beyond that, I would definitely welcome it.
I get that to have a true loving relationship takes time and we need to be friends first before anything relating to true love takes root. Since all my ideas have backfired, I guess I probably think too much about wanting to be in love. I regret not being able to make a truer connection to try and prove this to LO. I know she is definitely worth the high value I would love to be for her.
I wish you well on your way back to marriage. You must have a very understanding wife. I pray it works out. Definitely don’t lose her to something like this. But I get how LO can make that effort challenging. Such a tangled web we weave.
Thanks also for the music too. It was a nice song and thank you for thinking of me.
“But I felt like you totally knew where I was at.”
I could feel similar things when LO left. She also decided (consciously or not) on NC when she left the job. I took a vacation day and went to the location she worked at for her last day on the job. I’d taken two vacation days in the 2 years of limerence and they were both because of her.
We seem to have similar symptoms but for different reasons. My limerence was very obviously tied up in a rescue fantasy. Something that has been part of the foundation of every woman I have had a romantic relationship with. Including my wife. Yours seems to be tied up in all that you are going through; recent divorce, a daughter that is angry at you for it, and your aging father that you realize has a limited time left. That’s a lot to be put through all at once. Especially doing it all alone.
Then here comes this woman that is so radiant. She shines like the sun. I knew LO for almost a year before she glimmered for me. I felt the more I got to know her the more my need to “rescue” her loomed. A woman in distress is my weakness. My other female co-workers had partners to be there at their side. LO had no one, and she was a single mother. If that didn’t tick off all the right things. To the point though; there’s something in life that we are seeking that LO seems to fulfill. Whether they actually do is almost irrelevant once the limerence sets in as we can’t see reality anymore. LO is the beginning and the end.
“It’s like being limerent is the only joy I get in life.”
I would imagine to a degree most any limerent can relate to this. Me? I wasn’t addressing issues in our marriage with my wife because I tend to avoid confrontation and discord. So yes, LO was an escape for me too. She was sweet and nice to me. She thanked me for every little thing I did for her. Limerent me saw more in it than what she was; a kind, polite and gracious woman. But the escape helped me forget what was going on at home. The caveat is; that was not fair to LO or my wife. The damnation of limerence is it makes it all about LO when in reality it’s all about the limerent; you and me.
“I liked reading how you seemed to adore your LO and the difficulty you have now entirely letting her go.”
My biggest regret with this limerence regarding LO is that I would have much preferred to be her friend and still have her in my life. If I could have done that, than maybe she would call me from time to time. Or given me her number before she left so we could stay in touch. Maybe her and my wife could have become friends too. For me that is the hard part of letting go of her. That now on the better side of this LE I think I could handle a friendship with her. Especially if my wife and her kicked it off really well. And that makes this the hardest part of letting go. I am getting there. Maybe more time and I finally will.
“In a sea of average looking Women, my LO totally stands out with her fashion sense.”
LO had the same. She was always so well put together just to come to a job where everyone else was casual. And I absolutely adore when my wife gets all dressed up when we go out. Something about a woman with her own sense of fashion and style and you can tell that she is confident in it. Another one of my weaknesses. So I certainly can understand where you are coming from.
“Being romantic with LO is not the most necessary thing. If anything I really just wanted to get in her circle.”
I get this as well. Once and awhile I would wonder if I had met LO in a different time and place what we could have amounted to, but for the most part I just enjoyed her company and our dialogue. I loved to make her laugh or smile. Her and her daughter even played a prank on me one time at work. They got me good lol. Both of them clearly thought it was funny and it is a nice memory to have of them. I won’t forget that memory.
“I wish you well on your way back to marriage. You must have a very understanding wife. I pray it works out.”
Thank you I appreciate that. And yes I am very fortunate that she is trying to understand what is going on in my head and is willing to be patient and help me through this. It’s far more than I deserve. So I am trying to let go of LO in a way that when I do have those memories of her come to mind I think of them in a fond and normal way, not in limerent fog. I owe her at least that.
As far as music goes, I share it a lot. But there is also a blog post and comments about music relating to limerence here.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-music
And this song which has a line in it that really sticks with me, even if I cannot relate to the romantic end of the song when it comes to LO nor wish her no ill will.
“I was blinded by what I didn’t want to see
And I knew all along that you were gonna leave
So why do I still wish you’d miss me?”
Wish You’d Miss Me — Chase Wright
https://youtu.be/_tHnH6wV8QQ
@Adam, Beautiful Song. As I type this through teary eyes.
I’m so pathetic, lol..
Hi MJ, welcome to the site! Thank you for being so open and honest about what’s going on in your life. I agree that you’re experiencing some very intense emotions that really seem to have hijacked your brain and taken control of your life. I hope that by engaging here you’re starting to take steps to regain control and get your life back
I do have to agree with the others here that your LO may likely feel threatened by your behavior. Imagine if you had a daughter (not sure if you do or not) or another younger female relative who told you that a guy at work was walking by her office multiple times per day just to look at her, and would wait for her in other work areas to try to approach her, and even followed her in his car when she went on break. And that she’d never engaged in conversation beyond saying hi a couple of times, and was doing everything possible to signal her discomfort (including physically fleeing the scene many times) and yet the man continued to persist in trying to approach her. Considering this objectively from the side of the young woman, how would you interpret it? And then imagine if she somehow knew that you kept a picture of her by your bed (where did you get her picture?) and wrote sexually explicit poetry about her… I think that pretty much all people would consider this to be concerning behavior and signs of an unhealthy obsession.
I very much understand the feelings of intense desire and idealization of a woman in the workplace. I also recognize that when a woman indicates she’s not interested, we just have to respect that and work on moving on – that’s what I’m in the process of right now. This current situation has you in misery (even if it might feel good for the moment when you’re fantasizing), is likely creeping her out, and is probably putting you at risk for losing your job or worse if you persist.
I agree with the advice of others to keep reading and engaging with this site, to work on connecting with other people and other activities in healthy ways, and to work on deprogramming your brain by not engaging in activities like going out of your way to look at her, going on her social media, writing poetry about her and keeping her picture by your bed. These activities will only continue to add fuel to this obsession and nothing good can come of it
My only disagreement with Lovisa’s comment is that I probably wouldn’t encourage you to discuss this with your ex wife or other friends. Your behavior that you described here is, to be honest, outside of what most people would consider socially acceptable, and so I’d be really leery of disclosing it to anyone outside of an anonymous internet blog and a confidential relationship with a therapist. I would STRONGLY recommend starting to see a therapist where you can work through all of this in a safe and productive way so that you can get your life back. Most of us here, myself included, are seeing therapists regularly and I consider it an important part of my limerence recovery.
I hope for all the best for you! Stay engaged and we’re here for you.
Thank you for your reply Lost In Space. I appreciate you taking some time for me on the issue. I like what I’ve read on this site so far. I can see there is a boatload of information and the Community seems positive.
It’s not easy being told in the most polite way, I am being creepy. I have always considered that what I do, that I try to go out of my way, not to be creepy. Yet after being told in each reply I got here, the things I do are kind of just that creepy and too obsessive, I should therefore do something about it. Not sure how I feel about that.
I’ve gotten so used to thinking of LO all the time. She is like having an imaginary girlfriend that goes with me everywhere. If you’ve read any of the replies I mentioned to the others here, LO has filled the space where my life currently lacks enjoyment. And maybe it’s because my work day is almost 12 hours long and taking care of an aging, sick Father at night can be draining. Couple that with regrets for my divorce and a Daughter that resents me greatly for it, I find thats a perfect recipe for limerence.
Perhaps it’s a weak excuse, but thats kind of the reason I am here now and grateful to be in the presence of others going through similar issues.
I have a feeling this process is going to take some time. It’s hard to realize LO is not really interested. I truly felt like our eye contact meant a little more. At least that’s what I wanted to believe. It’s how many of my past relationships began. But that was so many years ago. Most nights I’m just lonely now. At least having an LO to think about comforts me somewhat, but I know I need to dial things back a notch. Ms. Lovisa replied back again about the staring and it made perfect sense.
I’m working on looking for a Therapist to connect with. Challenging to deal with that right now with all the stuff I have going on with Dad..
As for my Daughter, she doesn’t make my life any easier..
I have discussed only a little about this LE to my ex. She doesn’t quite understand it so it makes things awkward somewhat. She is only going to care so much anyway. I’m actually tired of leaning on her post divorce. But she is still a safe person for me, believe it or not. I just don’t like using her as a go-to person. I shouldn’t have to anyway..
Thank you again for your support. Looking forward to see what else is here in the forum. Glad you are here for me.
“Today I imagined LO in my head as he used to appear and it was really wierd – I had no emotional reaction at all.”
Limmy
I was just thinking this yesterday. I was busy at work, here alone, and the weather was beautiful so I decided to put on headphones and work outside and get some things done in the yard at work since it was nice and a song came on my playlist that, well is on my playlist because it makes me think of LO.
And I actually entertained the thought that LO might have actually known and seen the special treatment I gave her and actually did what she did to get me to keep giving that to her, even after meeting the man she’s with. I actually entertained the thought that she was not the perfect thing. That she might have actually been human. And in that thought I was like “woah”. LO’s not perfect?
That’s a sobering thought when you get to the point that you realize that. And you look back on how you felt about LO before and it’s even frightening to you. And then the realization that you couldn’t understand how other people could see you giving LO special attention with in the limerence. But now you are like “how the hell could I not think they couldn’t see it” once you get out of that fog because you can see it for yourself. It’s like someone recording your drunk behavior on their phone and showing it to you sober, and you’re like “omg how embarrassing”.
In that moment, I will admit, that I was saddened to think that there is a chance LO might have been that manipulative to get what she wanted. And why when she knew she was happy with this other man’s attention, she left because she didn’t need me anymore. He was fulfilling what I had been. But at the same time I realized that’s because she’s not perfect and who doesn’t like special treatment? She may have manipulated me, but in the end I was the one that put her in that position in the first place. I still think she is a good person and I am glad to have met her in my life. But I realized she is human.
“But I realized she is human.”
Nyuh uh.
https://images.uffizi.it/production/attachments/1503909239806647-605174-2-.jpg?ixlib=rails-2.1.3&w=2500&h=2500&fit=max&crop=center&fm=pjpg&auto=compress&mark=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.uffizi.it%2Fproduction%2Fattachments%2Flogo-watermark.png&mark-h=90 – “The Birth of Venus” -Sandro Botticelli (1480s)
Why am I thinking of the Simpsons episode with Mindy riding in on a clam in Homer’s imagination?
Maybe because Art Imitates Life, or vice versa….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9-oxAZQb5A
I’d never seen this but it belongs here.
Haha, I really enjoyed watching that!!! Totally belongs here!
Hey Adam,
It is pretty startling when you start exiting the limerent fog and see LO as a flawed human. They still have their attractions (a redhead is still a redhead after all), but some of what we thought was so “perfect” was obviously not. And some of their previous faults that we glossed over become clear, and we realize how much we may have been excusing them while we were drunk on them.
Its so good to see you going from strength to strength, buddy!
It isn’t an on-off switch, but on my end, more and more I catch myself being more “present” in whatever it is I am doing in my life. I love it! Yesterday it was when I was deeply absorbed in making a great meal; the day before, like you, it was yard work (my garden is a picture this Spring). And generally, I am focusing on getting my life organized with personal goals, new habits, etc. (btw, on your recommendation, I signed up for Noom!) For me, personal finances is a very engrossing one. Haha, I am realizing that I am far more interested in $$$ than LO! (jkg)
But you know, I wouldn’t have realized what a gift it is, and how this really is Freedom, if I hadn’t had the distress of being “caught” in the trap of intrusive thoughts with the LE. I don’t take being in the moment for granted, as I did previously, before the LE.
I have some thoughts about how you still keep that playlist that reminds you of LO and you choose to play it. I realized that I had the same things – that even when the LE was faded (and I am glad about it), I occasionally did things that somehow connect me to LO – for example, I still come here to LwL. Or post to groups where I know LO will “see” me. Or write about the experience. Being “in love” or “in limerence” is an extraordinary experience, and even when it is over, there is some pleasure to be had to revisit this most emotionally intense experience of our lives. It is part of what it means to be alive, and kicking!
Most recently, I’ve found that as the LE fades more and more into indifference, those things I did to “remember” don’t feel even that interesting or compelling anymore (though I AM actually really interested in your journey, and those of a few others here at LwL). I used to be painfully aware of every time I checked my phone for a message related to LO, or the scheming that was going through my mind as I did something specifically aimed at getting a response for LO – I was super-sensitized to LO-related things. Now, I can’t even find my phone most times. The dopamine hit is less, obviously. I was reading that article by Dr L about habituation through plentiful exposure (we get so much), and I wonder if it is the corollary of the extreme sensitization of LE which is based often on scarcity (we can’t get enough). Almost like the Madonna-and-the-Whore complex (no offense to anyone).
And I have read your other posts – about LO enlisting, etc. and I thank you for your kindness. I am grateful to all who serve.
Sorry I missed your post earlier Limmy.
“I have some thoughts about how you still keep that playlist that reminds you of LO and you choose to play it.”
I had a positive move forward with my music. I was outside on the porch yesterday after I got home from work and was listening to music while I had a smoke. And a song came on that I’ve know since the 90’s that was a reminder of LO. Well as I was listening to it this time, I remembered that back in 98 when I met my wife online we made each other mix tapes and sent them to each other and this song was on the one I sent to her. And now the song is back to my wife’s song and not LO’s. Yay!
But yes there are plenty of new songs I’ve discovered during limerence that I probably need to let go of. Especially some that can never apply to my wife and unfortunately due to the limerence will always be about LO.
Yes, I have been trying to take daily walks when the weather permits, after I get home from work. Or come home and instead of going on my way home, then walk to the corner store when I know we need something. I have also reinvested myself in online gaming with my sons more than I use to. Plus our oldest will be back home for the summer from college on May 12th, so a lot will be going on. All things to try to keep my mind occupied and not on LO.
I actually find coming here and listening to other people’s stories helpful to me because maybe I can help others. If I can help others with my experience with limerence it makes it seem purposeful and not just a time in my life that was just some random agonizing experience that was born out of chaos. It makes me hope that I can reduce or minimize some people’s LE. That gives me purpose.
I’ve noticed that too. So even if some random thing reminds me of LO, it’s more a pleasant memory of lady (and her daughters) that I am glad I met and the memory is just the same as a memory of anyone else I have that is not in my life anymore. Which I am happy for because I don’t really want to have to expel her from my memory completely if I can’t get through this LO. I just want to remember for who she was not as an LO.
Like this morning on the way to work I was listening to my rap/hip-hop playlist, cause wth is going to remind me of LO on that playlist? Then Nelly’s Just A Dream plays which is a song about the woman that got away and that he hopes she comes back to him but then realizes it was all just a dream. Maybe there are raps songs about limerence. *shrugs* You never know.
I only hope the best for your LO. Hopefully he finds what he looking for in life out there in battle and comes home safe and healthy and the man he wants to be. Please if you do get news on him let me know. I am hoping for his safe return.
Thanks so much for your reply, Adam. It is good to hear of how you are reclaiming parts of music that belong to your wife.
“listening to other people’s stories helpful to me because maybe I can help others.” Ah, this would tie in with your need to rescue. Well, you have been helpful, to this damsel at least. Watching a truly good man like you struggle with limerence is inspiring. Hearing how you try to do the right thing restores my faith in humanity. Being witness to your vulnerability as you share your feelings of guilt and flaws is humbling. Knowing how strong your limerence was, and how you are beginning to see the end of the tunnel will give many people hope. Your decency with regard to refusal to demonize LO, but to wish her the best for the future gives me confidence that I am doing the right thing too, as I let my LO naturally step down from the pedestal I put him on, rather than tear him off it by force.
I will let you know re LO in service. But in these matters, no news is good news, right? (both in limerence and war)
I wish you all the best for the upcoming summer, especially when you boy comes home next week. It will be great.
Oh and before I forget again. She has read your posts and is trying to get her head around with some answers and responses to your posts. She said she will get to them soon. And appreciates the posts ya’ll made to hers.
LO brought me some paperwork this morning, and had a smile and friendly greeting when she dropped it off. I debated for awhile, and then decided to walk it back over to her office in person after I’d completed it rather than put it into inter-office mail. We ended up chatting at her desk for 10-15 minutes, nothing super deep or emotional, just catching up on our lives and families. It was a pretty relaxed, friendly conversation and I enjoyed seeing her smile and hearing her voice (have I mentioned that her voice is the most beautiful sound in the world?), and even made her laugh a couple times. It was nice – almost felt like the conversations we had last year before we both got totally limerent for each other. And of course I felt some aching and longing for more later in the day, but it wasn’t too bad, and it was pretty easy to resist the urges to text her or find another reason to go see her a second time.
One of my motives for chatting with her was to figure out her plans for leaving. She’s starting school on Monday, and she’d been planning to quit work before starting school, so I’d really been gearing myself up to say the big goodbye this week. But apparently the first term is going to be pretty easy, so she’s planning to keep working a bit longer – maybe until September, although she may still leave sooner depending on how some other things go.
So now instead of prepping myself for an emotional goodbye, I need to pivot to finding a way to continue co-existing for a few more months. I have mixed feelings of course, but overall I feel like it’s gonna be ok and I was mostly glad to hear that she’s not leaving just yet.
I told myself today that to manage the new normal until she leaves, I have to make a few assumptions and just treat them as fact:
1) I assume that she still feels the same way about me and still loves me, but she is going to be strong and focus on being appropriate around me. If I can believe this, it frees me from having to constantly worry about if she still has feelings for me and will help keep me from constantly trying to interpret the smallest of signs from her – if I already know, then there’s simply no need to keep guessing
2) I assume that she still knows how I feel about her, and knows that the only reason I’m not continuing to express my feelings for her is because I’m respecting her boundaries and also trying to be appropriate. This assumption frees me from the compulsion to always try to make sure she knows how I feel about her. For whatever reason, I always worry that she’ll assume I’ve already gotten over her, and want to make sure she knows how much I still feel for her, and that really just isn’t necessary either. She knows.
3) I assume that she’s a strong and capable woman who has overcome a lot of challenges in her life so far, and will continue to overcome challenges on her own. She does not need me to rescue her and her future happiness doesn’t depend on me
4) I assume that she will continue to adjust her responses toward me in order to keep our relationship appropriate (thank you Lovisa in particular for helping me to understand this). If I play it cool and keep things friendly and don’t push any boundaries, she’ll feel safe enough to be friendly with me and I’ll get to talk with her from time to time. If I go back to pushing boundaries and making her uncomfortable, she’ll go back to being cold to keep the boundaries up. This is good motivation, because I’d do anything to be able to keep hearing her voice and seeing her smile at me, even if only on occasion, and I don’t want to mess that up.
I think that as long as I can keep reminding myself of these 4 things, that’ll help me to stay on track for the next few months. And I think that the objective evidence actually does point to all of them being true – it’s just my anxious limerent brain that constantly doubts them and seeks reassurance ad nauseam. I’ve spent so much time this last month fretting about whether she still has feelings for me or not… I mean, this is a woman who told me she had a crush on me since we first met 6 years ago, who finally worked up the courage to start talking to me about personal stuff about a couple years ago, further worked up the courage to start texting me 6 months ago, spent months obviously just as limerent for me as I am for her… and I’m all worried that she stopped caring about me after a few weeks of limited contact? Objectively that just doesn’t make sense, right? These feelings developed over a long time and got super strong – they’re not just gonna go away overnight. I guess it’s just an unpleasant part of limerence to need constant reassurance of the other person’s feelings.
And of course, I know that the ultimate goal is to get to the point where it doesn’t actually matter to me how she feels about me, but I’m not there yet. So for now, it’s helpful to keep reminding myself that it’s highly unlikely that all her feelings suddenly vanished overnight – I know she’s just keeping them to herself in order to be appropriate and do the right thing. And my job is to also keep my feelings to myself and stay appropriate, and as long as we both stick to that, everything will be alright.
Thanks for the update LIS. Hopefully these next few months you can settle into a warm working relationship with LO that leaves you with better memories than the turmoil of the last few months.
I think your focus on those truths are valid and with merit and will help get you through. And I think it’s comforting to know that someone loves you, cares about you, thinks the world of you even though it can’t (and shouldn’t) be.
I, myself, have had a harder couple weeks. Yesterday I was especially down over LO. I attribute this to having a week with greater feeling of connection towards LO in our interactions. I didn’t even set out this week to have great connection, but sometimes her and I just seem to click and have really good chemistry, at least I feel that way. Not sure she notices. But anytime that happens there is usually a price to pay later when she is away and we are not interacting. Then I miss her more and go through a day or two of feeling pretty blah. Yesterday was particularly blah.
I think I am getting weary of the “no end in sight” aspect of it all. I have to coexist with her and balancing it all week in and week out takes emotional energy I’m just tired of exerting. Being her employer, I have entertained thoughts of just letting her go to get her out of my life, but I see that as the most cruel of outcome in all of this. She doesn’t deserve it and it would devastate her. I can’t realistically consider it so I keep pushing on. But at this point I’m convinced that my limerent state will continue on at some level until a point that maybe she leaves on her own accord (this is a possibility, her husband is unemployed and has very little prospect in the area we live to be a adequate provider) and I can go complete NC.
I had a really good therapy session this week, where I told my therapist of a past short but passionate relationship I had with a woman I was very infatuated with. I had the opportunity to date this woman long term a little later as this woman pursued me, but I was dating my wife at the time and turned the opportunity down. Turns out my chemistry with LO and my physical attraction to LO mirrors a lot with this previous woman. LO gives me the same vibes. There is a lot of “what if” there with this past woman and LO is bringing back a lot of those feelings. That could be the special sauce that made me glimmer for LO.
Anyway…hang in there. I wish you the best the next few months. Looking forward to hearing more as it unfolds.
Sorry you have had a such tough week. I very much relate to the “weary no end in sight” feeling. Things seem a bit mutually frosty btw my LO and I but I feel unable to do anything about it. So 2-3 days of bla for me too.
I have finally started to consider my only NC option of moving jobs. But I like my job and the thought of leaving my job AND losing LO forever at the same time is just too awful.
I guess at least I have that choice, you are in a slightly tougher position.. sacking LO.. you would feel terrible!
Hey Speedwagon, sounds like a tough week. It’s so hard when the connection and chemistry just feel so right, and the natural instinct is to want to push it further but you know that you can’t… and then you have to experience the withdrawals afterward which hurt every, single time. I really feel for your situation.
I’m glad you aren’t seriously letting yourself entertain the thought of letting her go from the company. That seems like absolute no-go territory. I know from your previous posts that you’ve always given a lot of importance to not being the “creepy boss”. Probably the only thing worse than “creepy boss” would be “vindictive boss” who discloses feelings for a coworker and then fires her when she doesn’t reciprocate. Now you and I both understand that this wouldn’t be your actual thought process in this situation – it would be about self-preservation rather than vindictiveness – but it would sure look that way to an outside observer, including to your LO. I would think that at best, she’d likely lose all respect and good feelings she has for you. At worst, she could probably take some actions to get back at you like telling your SO and/or everyone at the company about your disclosure. Hurt people hurt people.
One of my martial arts instructor’s favorite things to say is “suffer in silence!” – usually shouted while he’s making us students do some physically difficult task for an indeterminate amount of time. We’ve learned through experience that if you just grin and bear it and do what you’re supposed to, the task eventually ends and relief comes. On the other hand, if students keep complaining or try to get out of it, there’s always some worse task waiting. I think this is the sort of situation that you, me and Allie are all in at the moment – there’s not really much we can do that’ll make the situation better, but there’s definitely things we could do that would make the situation worse, so really all we can do is just keep pushing through and doing the right thing one day at a time, and have faith that relief will come eventually
“there’s not really much we can do that’ll make the situation better, but there’s definitely things we could do that would make the situation worse, so really all we can do is just keep pushing through and doing the right thing one day at a time, and have faith that relief will come eventually”
These are very true words, thank-you! I’ll keep pushing through.
“Ah, this would tie in with your need to rescue.”
If I can help even one person not have to go through the hell that I have/had that would be enough to look at this limerence as a learning experience and be the better for it. I happen to be fortunate to have such a dedicated and supportive wife. Not many limerents are able to talk to their spouses about their limerence. I am very fortunate in that regard.
And thank you for the kind words Limmy. I don’t feel very much of a “truly good man” but I am trying to find ways each day to try to be better and present with my wife and our marriage. I may get her forgiveness but it is a lot harder for me to do so for myself. But I look at that as motivation to make it up to her in any way so that she will know that I do love her and always will. And that we can, as a team, be more aware of any possible future LEs and stop them in their tracks.
Hey. I am experiencing extremely conflicting behavior from LO, being all friendly on one day, and not even looking towards me when we pass each other. Almost seems like playing a game. At that point I am not sure whether I should greet her or not, then decide not too thinking she wants to keep distance.
To be fair, I have also been cold/aloof during some past interactions. Perhaps both of us realize the consequences, and are trying to pull back/detach, who knows?
I have been limerent for about 1.5 years. Cannot go for NC, as we work in the same place, so try to have controlled interactions. Right now, the issue I am struggling with is the confusion/uncertainty due to hot-cold LO behavior. I do not want to impose on LO, but the cold behavior does disturb now and then. Not being able to go NC makes it worse.
Would really appreciate advice from others on how to handle this unpredictable behavior.
I struggle with the exactly same problem ABCD. Second guessing LOs confusing behaviour is a bad habit that I just cannot seem to escape from.
I think our limerence amplifies and personalises our LO’s behaviour hugely. If any other work colleague behaved this way, we might not think anything much of it – we just might assume they are pre-occupied, stressed, having a bad day, etc. But we make LOs behaviour all about us when most likely it isn’t.
Very well said, Allie. I do agree that LO behavior may be more about them than it is about us. The overthinking and the over analysis does not help, but its hard not to think in that direction. I am trying to train my mind not to do that. There is a trend to blow everything out of proportion.
I generally seem to do better with NC, but every time there is some contact or sighting of LO, that just acts as a trigger, and things start to spiral downward. So I guess the strategy would be to minimize contact, as much as possible.
Hi ABCD, I think Allie made a solid point that your LO’s behavior may have nothing to do with you. Can you give us a little more background? It might help.
I’m sorry you are experiencing uncertainty. It is awful!
https://livingwithlimerence.com/uncertainty/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/barriers-and-uncertainty/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/living-with-uncertainty/
Thank you Lovisa for sharing these links, I have gone through some of them, they are very helpful. Uncertainty really feeds limerence in the worst possible manner. Since I have an SO (have not disclosed), I know it is wrong to even try to engage with LO, so am trying to dial back. In general, when there is NC, I seem to do better. However, whenever there is contact or sighting of LO even, the feelings come back rushing in, and it takes a day or two to (slightly) recover. Unfortunately, these interactions are not in my hand. To sum up, I am trying to reach a stage where I am okay with the uncertainty, as to recognize it as one of the things that I have no control over. Boy it is hard, but trying as best as I can.
Hi ABCD,
Even after limerence has mostly faded, I too find that unexpected LO contact can derail me. Case in point, just the other day, something came up where LO suggested taking a car ride together. The thought of being in an enclosed space, totally private, where we could talk … you can imagine. I dithered like mad: should I turn it down (yes!), should I change my plans so this could happen (no!), should I add someone else to the ride (so that it isn’t private)? The weird thing was, while I dithered, LO dithered too on his end – like he was also undecided about the car ride. Which caused in me: what is going on? You can see the mental gyrations!!! The debilitating uncertainty. The warring desire for a dopamine hit, versus knowing this is dangerous and doing the right thing. I felt like I could actually watch myself from above as I went around in circles, and I hated what I was seeing (it is so undignified, seriously). I thought I was over this (it has been months! I’d accepted it, I thought. LC is at its most L that it has ever been and I am happy and free!) … NOT over this then. At least not completely. I suspect I will never be totally indifferent to LO, and I need to forgive myself for reacting so ridiculously, so long as I don’t actually *do* anything that is a set back to the greater goal. Good luck with your situation!
Emily, don’t leave us hanging, did you go on the car ride?
Lol, that situation would have made me crazy, too.
I was doing so great and then yesterday my LO sent me a message, “… I miss you!” Can you imagine the the thoughts and feelings that surfaced? Ahhhh! I got fixated on that one sentence and read a lot into it. I need to settle down and take this man off of his pedestal. He is just a person, Lovisa. Come on, Lovisa. Focus on your family and responsibilities. Deep breaths. Do the right thing no matter how you feel, Lovisa. You got this.
Back to Emily’s car ride… how did it go? *wink
Emily…I can completely relate to the car ride scenario, though I am the inviter and my LO would be the invitee. There are work scenarios almost weekly where I could take LO along and we would get good alone time together. In the past I orchestrated some of these and LO was always a willing participant. The outings are always very enjoyable, but come at an emotional cost later as I come down off the high of being with her. The last outing I did with her put me in a more depressive state than I like for about 2 days.
These days any outing with LO is strictly off limits. I don’t invite any more as it’s just not worth it emotionally and I too am trying hard to practice strict LC with LO.
I too wish I could be indifferent, but LC is just not strong enough medicine to purge LO completely.
Thanks for sharing your experience with car rides, Speedwagon … I agree with you, dangerous, so so dangerous.
Hahaha, Lovisa. I did the third thing – I offered to drive instead AND I added other people. And LO turned it down. I have to say, I am somewhat relieved. Disappointed on some level but also relieved. I did not need 2 days of depression or revival of the LE. Narrow escape?
Oh my … I had that “I miss you” thing once too from LO, after a length of NC (I guess they really do miss us … but it doesn’t bear thinking about). It ramped up the LE for sure. Your words and response are how I would describe my reactions too. You know, I wouldn’t say it is nothing … it IS sweet when someone misses us. It’s just it means so disproportionately MORE when it is LO. And when the message comes when I am sitting alone at night in the car and I just … long for him and feel like crying.
Limerence is like a flame. You can get it down to embers, but the slightest breeze fans it up! Then you have to tamp it down again.
I had an interesting experience yesterday though: I met a very good-looking man who was giving off the ‘I’m attracted to you’ vibes. I don’t think I will do transference (my LE is not that strong anymore anyway, I would rather have no limerence in my life, thank you very much!) but … the pain I felt about missing my LO faded just a little in the sparkle of a brief flirtation with someone else. That is progress, right? I wouldn’t mind your view of this, Lovisa, you seem to have a real handle on the feminine condition.
Hi Emily, thanks for adding details about your experience with the car ride. You did the right thing.
I think it is a good sign that your limerent symptoms reduced when you noticed an attraction vibe from from another man. I think you are the best person to judge the status of your LE because you seem to have your head on your shoulders about it, at least that is the impression I have from reading your comments. Seriously, I am impressed by two things: 1. you didn’t lean into the new glimmer and 2. you didn’t feed the current LE with a car ride. You are doing great at not fanning the limerent embers. You are a good example to me, Emily.
Hello ABCD, I saw your reply to my post a few days ago. Forgive me for not getting back to you sooner.
Our work LO’s seem to be cut from the same cloth. And you and I seem to be reacting to them similarly.
From the replies I have received about my LO in this forum, it would appear I have been way off.
From what I read about your LE, it seems like your LO has not completely read your signs. Especially when there was no acknowledgement on your passing.
Perhaps she is just nice and wants to keep things simply that, in the work environment. (I experienced some of that so-called game playing with my LO, in the eye contact she gave me)
I am no Professional but it reads to me like you and LO need more of an interaction. However, having an SO may not be helpful for either of you.
It is uncertainty, that probably drives some of what you feel. The fact you work in the same building makes NC very hard, no doubt. I can completely agree with you on that one.
My biggest LE regret is not approaching. I believe that had I done at least something, instead of nothing, might not have driven me to such depression. Yet with it being a work-environment, you have to be careful how you do that. So I would tell you to tread carefully as you don’t want to find yourself in HR about the issue. Or worse yet, lose your job.
Next time you see your LO, try to muster up some courage and at least start saying hi and by being as friendly as you know how to be. Let her pick up on those cues. See what happens. But don’t forget about your SO either. It’s really kind of unfair to her.
Hello MJ, not a problem, that’s quite all right. Thank you for going through my post. I would say the major issue here is that both of us have SOs, so that automatically sets barriers. There are a couple of posts in this website about how barriers and uncertainty make a dangerous cocktail with respect to the LE, and don’t I know it. So, naturally, there is a level of guilt in having these non stop intrusive thoughts, and the post “over analysis”. It’s like you know it’s not right to think and ruminate over LE, but you just cannot, as its so hard not to. Having said that, will take your advice and try to initiate some small talk.
@ABCD, Btw the reason I regret so much not approaching LO in the way I would’ve liked, is because it would have made life so much easier if I had a more of a personal rejection from her. I feel like her avoiding me, was her way of being non-confrontational about the matter and not really wanting to hurt me either. I know she sensed my vibe. She caught me staring at her all the time. I just didn’t want to believe she didn’t want to reciprocate. What I do believe is that if she would have just told me outright, to go away, or if I happened to end up in HR over the matter, that would’ve been the slap upside the head, I would’ve needed to stop.
So another approach you could try to muster up to do. Walk up to your LO, ask her if she’s interested, and go from there. Of course this will take master courage, which is something I seriously lack, but doing so will give you clarity and perhaps halt the games you feel in your head she is playing.
Perhaps my advice is crap. I tried. Give me an E for effort.
I don’t feel good about this, guys. Let’s not forget that ABCD is married. Can we talk about boundaries before you make small talk, ABCD? I feel like I don’t know your story. Have you shared details anywhere? Can you direct me to a post where you give more details?
Here is my feeling about LEs when one or both people are married, the marriage has to be the top priority. I understand how intense limerence can be. And it’s true that talking to your LO could make her more human and it could reduce your symptoms, but that is unlikely. Usually limerence will intensify with contact.
Can we talk through possible outcomes before taking action?
By the way, it probably would have been a good idea for Mj to talk to his LO a long time ago so hopefully she could have given him a direct answer, but Mj and his LO are both single. His situation is different. His advice is good for single people. I would probably say the same thing. But I hesitate with ABCD because he is married.
Good luck! Whatever you decide to do, I hope it works out.
I think he mentioned in an earlier post he has not disclosed to his SO.
Being that his LO seems indifferent to him at this point and has SO also, might indicate her non-interest about his possible LE.
Did I get that right ABCD??
Thanks Mj, that helps.
Ughhh…today was a weird day with LO. She came into work 30 min late and when she arrived you could tell she had been crying. All of my angst towards her all of a sudden turned to concern and I wanted so bad to care for her, but I resisted to get involved. Not my business, plus her best friend also works for me so she has an outlet here for care. I gave my distance and didn’t wander over to her desk until about noon. At that point I just acted cheery, cracked a few jokes, and made sure she laughed and smiled. I think it helped for a moment.
As she left today and she said bye I could still tell she was upset. I want so bad to text or email her just to say I hope her day tomorrow is better. I’m not going to because one, not my business, and two…LC rules are LC rules.
I can feel you with that. It was very difficult for me to stay neutral in regards to her divorce because it wasn’t my business and didn’t want to inadvertently cause any problems with child custody because my idea of helping LO was wanting to punch her ex in the face. And that wouldn’t have been helpful. That and getting to “rescue” her just made the limerence worse for me.
So like you I just tried to cheer her up with bad puns and dad jokes so she’d smile or laugh.
Man, that would have been a HUGE trigger for me (actually has been a huge trigger for me a few times) – I’m not sure if I could have avoided texting my LO with a “you ok? I’m here for you…” under similar circumstances. But you did the right thing for you and her both – well done!
Especially since a huge part of my LE is wrapped up in a rescue fantasy with her. I know I made the right move but damn I care for this woman so much!
Yeah,
There’s nothing like a crying LO to send you spiraling.
I had at least 4 emails from her that said she’d been crying. She has a series of YouTube videos and in the ones from shortly after her relationship collapsed, she looked pretty rough.
I got an email that said she was feeling really down. I sent a reply back that I hoped would cheer her up. She said that my reply made her cry. I sent a reply back that said I was sorry, making her cry was the last thing I wanted to do, and I was really trying to cheer her up.
She came back with, “I know. That’s why I cried”
That had me bouncing off the walls for awhile.
Well done on the restraint Speedwagon – i can imagine how hard it must have been.
My LO has cried a few times in front of me – most recently last week funnily enough. I didnt react this time. She has had a rough time and cried because of a work related issue. I was proud i didnt overreact or show too much concern. It is definitely a trigger (also due to the rescue fantasy stuff).
We have this work function and i am actually terrified because i know how hard it is going to be – multiple hours in a small group setting. Not great at all. Speedwagon you are right about having a plan for it – my goal is to keep proactive interaction to a minimum but as i type this i know how impossible that is going to be. This really sucks.
Well done on maintaining your LC – i am not there yet.
You got this Vee. I remember times of reading my own older comments when first coming here and how desperate I was. It’s actually quite embarrassing some of the things I typed. But I have also realized how much progress I have made. It has been therapeutic. As there was a time I thought I would never get over LO. Like it wasn’t humanly possible for me. But here I am on the better side of this LE. And I know with a little more time I’ll be able to leave this behind me. It may take till after June 3 (marks one year since I have seen LO) but I have a lot more confidence now than I did four months prior when I first found this place. And that is all because of Dr L and all the fine members of this community that I have to thank for that.
LO sent me a message today asking if I had time to chat – she’s debating between a few job offers and wanted to get my advice. It felt nice that she wanted to get my input on a major life decision – it means she knows that I understand her well, and that I want what’s best for her even if it means her leaving, and that she trusts me.
We talked on the phone for about 45 minutes at the end of the day – about half of it discussing the pros and cons of the different job offers, and then some time catching up on our lives, mostly just talking about our kids. We were laughing and joking and just enjoying talking with each other and it felt good. We didn’t talk at all about our feelings for each other or our relationships with our SOs or anything like that. It felt nice – kind of like the talks we used to have before things got crazy, back when we were just work friends (albeit friends who felt some attraction for each other). I didn’t want the conversation to ever end, but I didn’t try to prolong it when she said she had to go pick up her kids. She ended it with “talk to you tomorrow”.
The interesting thing is that I’m writing this an hour later, and surprisingly I feel pretty fine. I don’t feel a ton of anxiety about when I’ll get to talk to her again, or the deep ache of wanting more, or the grief about her impending departure – all of that is there a little bit, but it’s not too bad, kind of just background noise in my mind. I think that maybe I’ve reached a point of acceptance – about her leaving soon, about there never being a future for us – and I’m more able to just kind of float on the top of the waves and accept what comes. If she wants to talk, cool! If she doesn’t, that’s ok too! I’ve pretty well made my mind up to not be the one to initiate contact with her, and on any given day I’m not really expecting her to initiate contact with me, so on the occasions that she does, I can just take it as a pleasant little surprise and a nice treat in my day, and not as the central point of my whole existence.
Of course, this chat today also has me wondering if she’ll want to keep talking sometime after she leaves. She doesn’t really have many friends or family that she talks with, and I think I’m one of the main people she trusts and she values my opinions, so I could see her reaching out to me sometimes as she’s navigating her future challenges. I don’t know if that would actually be good for me, as opposed to a clean break, but honestly I don’t think there’s much chance that I would decline to take her call if she called me a month or two after leaving and wanted to chat.
I think I’m backsliding a little… LO told me yesterday that she was expecting a call today about a promising job opportunity, and our phone conversation had been so warm and comfortable yesterday, so today I decided it was ok to text her at the end of the day to ask if she’d heard any news about the job (she hadn’t). And then we ended up texting back and forth for a bit about a handful of personal things – nothing deep or emotional, just stuff about our kids and our weekend plans and whatnot, but it was the first time we’ve texted since she’d asked me to stop texting her a few weeks ago. And she seemed warm and responsive and didn’t seem upset at all that I’d texted her.
So on one hand, it’s nice that at the moment we seem to be in a place where we’re being friendly and involved in each others’ lives and don’t feel awkward around each other, but I’m also worried about whether I can keep it at that level and not feel compelled to push things further. She’s told me a bunch of times in the past that she really wants us to stay friends but just keep the feelings to ourselves, so I think she’s letting herself give that another shot… which feels a lot nicer than having her be cold and cut me out of her life completely, but at the same time I know it’s not good for my limerence recovery. My limerence symptoms had actually been decreasing little by little over the past few weeks, and I suspect the phone call yesterday and texting today are going to have them ramped up again over the weekend.
I’m resolved not to initiate contact with her again until she initiates the next contact. I felt ok about texting her today because she had called me yesterday, so it was my turn. Now it’s her turn, so I’ll wait to see if she initiates contact again – that’s really the only way to gauge if she’s interested in maintaining some sort of relationship. And I think that’s the right solution in regards to me not being pushy or making LO feel uncomfortable, but it’s not necessarily the right solution in terms of minimizing my limerence symptoms and being emotionally faithful to my wife. I know the correct thing would be to just tell LO that I need to maintain LC for my own sake, but it just feels so much nicer having some degree of personal interactions with her. I don’t know…
Time to trot out a Golden Oldie:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/im-totally-over-this-lets-go-for-coffee/
LiS…I think the danger area for both of you is that there is now the reality of an expiration date on your relationship so why not let the guard down and establish closeness again because soon enough you will be out of each other’s lives.
Where it could go sideways is if you don’t put a boundary again in that closeness because it could all just escalate but this time the expiration date is the rationalization for letting it escalate. Does that make sense? Maybe you both don’t feel the level of distress you used to feel as you grow closer again because you both know it’s going to end and you want to desperately end strong. But like you admit, this could cause a huge backslide emotionally and even make the possibility of a moment of physical affection harder to resist.
Should you maybe now, at this time before things progress, put a boundary on communication? Maybe figure out what’s appropriate and somewhat comfortable and stick to it. Can you talk to LO about it? She seems very communicative with you so maybe this is something you both could navigate together?
This feels normal to me, Lost in Space. I’m not worried about either of you. I think you two are trying to dip your feet back in the water without getting so wet this time. I also think both of you can handle it. I don’t think you were emotionally unfaithful to your wife with that phone conversation or the texting. Let’s see what happens. If your symptoms intensify, you may need more boundaries. If she suddenly grows cold, you’ll know that she is setting boundaries for herself and we all respect her for it. I think you can handle friendly contact, but you know better than I do what you can handle. Also, we figured out that women and men perceive and handle attraction differently. As a female, I could be looking at this through a naive lens. Whereas, the other men have a better understanding of how intensely this contact effects you. So, perhaps my thoughts are more applicable to your LO. I suspect she feels relieved right now. I suspect she wants you in her life, but not at the expense of her values (she doesn’t want to be a cheater in any way). For the past couple of days she got exactly what she wanted: some nice, safe closeness. And she has the added benefit of your expertise which is golden for a woman in her situation. This sounds like a giant win for her. But of course she and I don’t know if the interactions come with an emotional cost for you. You have to decide if you can play by her rules without getting too triggered. I think you got a sample of what you can have with LO going forward. Do you want it?
Best wishes! I hope your training is going well. The weather in my area is wonderful, yet I’ve managed not to overtrain lately which I’m really happy about. I did a beautiful trail run at sunset last night and it was heavenly. It was SO’s idea and I was actually following him this time. It’s amazing that he caught the running bug. He suddenly loves trail running. We had a great time last night.
Thanks for the support Emily and others.
“I suspect I will never be totally indifferent to LO, and I need to forgive myself for reacting so ridiculously, so long as I don’t actually *do* anything that is a set back to the greater goal”.
This is great advice, something that I will follow.
Unlike many of you, we do not have much of interaction, and I have tried not to go down that path. Still I am surprised that the feelings are so strong. Hoping that things improve with time.
I can’t remember who it was, but they pointed out that this website is called “Living WITH Limerence” … which sort of means, I think that the limerence doesn’t really ever go away … it requires ongoing management.
“Surprised that the feelings are so strong” pretty much describes the experience for so many of us, especially if it is our first time. And it is rooted both in the bodily sensations and the invasion of our minds. What an insane experience! I hope it gets better for you soon.
Thanks Emily. Really thankful for the support. You are very right about the “living with limerence” part. Can’t really wish this stuff away with a magic wand, if only. Am counting to time to do its thing.
I have been guilty of acting ridiculously, or at least missing opportunities I should have taken when LO was around. It’s hard not to want to kick myself now for not dropping the ball. However I can’t do much to change things now.
If the interaction between you and your LO is minimal or not really there. If she is not sensing or picking up on your vibes, you may not be making it obvious enough. Which probably won’t help how you feel about her, I know. But it sounds like to me, you are wary of interaction, to the point where you may not even want it. I don’t know. Just what I gather here.
The last thing I’ll mention, that really kind of sums it all up is, if she was really interested in you, she would pick up on your vibe and find a way to reciprocate. That has been a very hard fact for me to swallow with my LE. If your LO ignores you or seems cold, she is probably indifferent to your presence. I guess do what you feel is best to improve the situation, if the feelings for LO don’t subside. Just be careful with that SO you got there too.
“Only assume an LO reciprocates if there is NO OTHER possible explanation that fits. Otherwise, it is safest for a limerent to assume any perceived LO reaction to us is limerent wishful thinking.”
Allie, I couldn’t have said it better myself. Those smiles of LO. Her laugh. It all seemed directed at me in my head. Because it was MY jokes she was laughing at. It was ME she was smiling at.
Now almost out of the limerent mist I realized that the longer I knew her and the more that her life was moving in a positive direction; getting away from her ex, finding a man that cares for her and her daughters, she was a happier person in general. Outside of the stress at work, her life had greatly become better and happier than when I first met her.
But I be damned if I’d seen that two years ago. Now I can because for the most part I am thinking clearly. (And I think it was you I was talking to about music.) I was listening to a mix Youtube made me at work this week and it was a song that is on my “limerent playlist” that came on and you know who I thought of? 🙂 Not LO.
Slowly I am getting my sanity back. A clear head is soon to come. I do get some very mild intrusive thoughts that I turn back around into either remembering it as a clear memory of her or turning my thoughts to something else if I can’t. I’m getting to the point where I don’t miss the limerence and want to be in the present. I just have a few loose strings to cut and I might be there.
Hi, Gang.
Lovisa and Allie1 – thanks for your responses the other week. I am kind of in and out of “commenting” mode so sorry for late responses. I am ok. Not great, but ok. Things have been better with my son lately, which helps. But I so much appreciated your care.
LiS, ABCD, Vee, Speedy, MJ – I feel for all of you. I’m in the same boat (more below). Speedy well done on not texting asking if she was ok. You’re doing the right thing and it must have been so difficult for you.
Adam – I am so glad for the progress you’ve made in the last few months! I remember when you first arrived I was so worried. And look at you!
LiS: one thing you wrote above, describing the aftermath of your interaction, really struck me. You said ” I’m not really expecting her to initiate contact with me, so on the occasions that she does, I can just take it as a pleasant little surprise and a nice treat…”
And there’s the rub. Seeing contact from her as a treat, rather than a threat to your emotional state and peace, is part of the problem. I say that entirely without judgement on you — like so many of us here, I feel the same way about my LO. But the key to recovery is to stop seeing interactions as a treat. That is something that I learned here. The difficulty for me is to actually put that lesson into action.
My update: I saw my LO at a meeting last week. In fact, we spent a lot of time together -always with others – going to and from the meeting. All interactions were friendly, as others were around, and we even made hand contact at a couple of points, passing things to each other. I felt sparks. And he said a couple of things that were slightly provocative but would have not been understood by anyone but the two of us. Anyway, I left him after the interaction feeling ok. Not high, not down, but fine.
Didn’t expect to hear anything from him, but a couple of hours after we parted, in came the WhatsApp: “Always good seeing you, [TP]”. I rolled my eyes to myself, debated whether to ignore or respond and finally did an hour later when I texted “Yeah right [laughing face emoji]”.
Felt kind of bad about that response, like it was too provocative, and honestly I hate text message for any kind of emotional exchange, though, so about an hour after that (he had not seen my previous message) I sent two follow ups: “Sorry. I’m doing the best I can and today was a lot” and “But that was unnecessary and I apologise”. He then replied half an hour later “Really was nice seeing you” and “I really enjoy your company”. That was two days ago and I have not responded: anything I say will likely be ignored, willfully misinterpreted, or worse. But I want to write back something caustic about how he has avoided me like the plague for an entire effing year, so he is full of it.
A trusted friend has told me to be silent, that he is going to get away with treating me poorly and does not want to in any way confront what’s happened. he wants to keep me at a safe distance and pretend everything is fine. And it seems I just have to take it.
“But the key to recovery is to stop seeing interactions as a treat.”
I think you are on the money here, TP. Our bodies are screaming it’s a treat, ice cream on acid, the best thing since sliced bread … I don’t know, take your pick. But really it is the ice cream laced with arsenic, the stale bread with fungus and black mold growing on it …
It is so so hard to remember that the longing does not make it a good thing to interact with our LOs. I confessed how ridiculously I behaved recently just because he held out a chance to sit with him in a car alone. The desire for that dopamine hit is just … dizzying.
And I sympathize with your txting. I was pretty sharp with my LO last week on txt cos, I don’t know, it is part of my barrier towards him to not be all soft and affectionate (which I actually AM with many of my platonic friends, I am a very caring friend to most people). I’m harder on him than anyone else! To keep a bit of a distance, make him think he is not so special to me. But I went a little too far with the caustic, and I apologized. On the one hand, I think it was the decent human thing to do. On the other hand, I’m like, you know, he’ll live, and why do I have to explain myself or apologize. My LO however, didn’t treat me as badly as yours did (in fact, he is pretty nice to me … just … not as nice as I would REALLY like), so maybe he did not deserve the bad treatment. If your LO did not treat you decently, you don’t owe him ANYTHING. Good luck!
I kind of think staying silent is the way to go here. I’m not entirely read-up on your situation and please forgive me for that. It seems there is a little tension between the two of you but nothing major as I read it. But it obviously affects you to some degree that he has ignored you. I guess proceed how you will. You may keep him curious as long as you remain silent. Just my opinion. I’m really nobody to give the best advice.
I will add also though, I would give anything to be in your shoes. To have ANY sort of real, honest back and forth between myself and my LO, would be welcome. Even if it wasn’t all that good. Which in my case l, kind of is, because no real relationship between her and I exists. Other than I can tell she knows I’m into her, and doesn’t really care to let me get in her circle. That’s what I have and yet, I would still stop a Train for this Woman. Pathetic as that is but that is what my world has devolved to.
“That’s what I have and yet, I would still stop a Train for this Woman.”
While I was at war with LO #4, I found her address online [there’s a whole string on the LO #4’s address story]. Somebody made a pretty creepy post on her professional site so I thought it was time to warn her, in case she didn’t know.
She came unglued on me and accused me of online stalking her. Mind you, this was the same woman who said it felt good to know that I was watching out for her and had her back. I asked how exactly I was supposed to do that if I didn’t check up on her periodically? She didn’t respond to that. She said she didn’t want to hear any more about stuff like that from me.
I told her that I’d quit looking and I wouldn’t warn her if I saw her about to step in front of a bus.
“I told her that I’d quit looking and I wouldn’t warn her if I saw her about to step in front of a bus.”
Excellent response. I kind of implied something like that to an ex gf of mine a long time ago. Funny how the female mind goes from one extreme to the other, when all you’re really doing is being nice. I totally get that.
Yeah, LOs can say the darndest things…
After we broke up, I held out the hope LO #2 and I might reconcile. She was seeing someone but I could tell from the way she talked that the relationship was doomed. Ray Charles could have seen it.
I asked her if she wanted to get back together. She said that she didn’t and that she was going to make it work with the guy [she didn’t].
We pick up the ensuing phone conversation:
Me: “Then, what do you want from me?”
LO #2: “I just want to stop feeling miserable all the time.”
Me: “I don’t understand. [queue up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsdaGion38k%5D You’re where chose to be, doing what you chose to do, and you’re sleeping with who you chose to sleep with. Who’s making you miserable?”
LO #2: “I’m late for work. [click]”
I told that story to the therapist I was working with. The therapist laughed and said it was a brilliant response and I must have “frustrated the living sh-t” out of LO #2. In exactly those words.
One big difference between many posters and me is that I disclosed to all my LOs, at some point. I was in full blown relationships with three of them. The last one, LO #4, was entirely virtual, but once I disclosed, she became a willing accomplice in maintaining the acquaintance. That is, until I panicked and pissed her off.
Once you disclose, plausible deniability becomes pretty tenuous. In a professional environment, disclosure is playing Russian Roulette.
MI
I commented on this blog “Id slaughter the whole world if she desired it”. And at the time I meant it a 100%. Forgive yourself a bit. It will get better.
Thanks MJ and Lovisa for your responses. I did not see a reply button below your posts, so I am typing here. Yes, you have understood the correctly. I think I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that both have SOs, so that automatically sets barriers. Atleast from my side, I can say that I am being very cautious about what to talk or how much to engage. I could be off case here, but my assessment is that there is hot and cold behavior from LO, hot implies trying to be in proximity and make conversation, and cold meaning not acknowledging my presence. Perhaps it is due the natural barriers, its very confusing. At this point, the number 1 issue is the intrusive thoughts, they just will not stop.
Hi ABCD,
Oh boy, the intrusive thoughts are miserable. I am sorry you are in that phase. The good news is that it will get better. Here is a video that helped me when I was suffering with intrusive thoughts.
How to Deal with Intrusive Thoughts
by Mark Freeman
https://youtu.be/laeYq51SYA0
I became desperate to get rid of my intrusive thoughts. I tried some of the techniques recommended for deprogramming, but they didn’t seem to work for me. Of course I may not have done them correctly or I may not have tried deprogramming long enough, I don’t know. I got so desperate that I used transference on purpose. I thought it wouldn’t hurt anyone else because it would all stay in my head. I told myself that I would transfer my limerence, be very careful not to engage in daydreams about the new LO, and I would be overly responsive to communication from the new LO to hopefully protect him from negative side effects (my intrusive thoughts came from hot and cold behavior from my previous LO and I didn’t want to put someone else through the misery that I was experiencing). Unfortunately, my new LO developed feelings for me and disclosed to me. We are managing the situation surprisingly well. Both of us are committed to our SOs. The current LE is so mild most of the time that I wonder if I would call it limerence. I rarely have intrusive thoughts. And I have contact with my previous LO without feeling the glimmer which is awesome! Our friendship went back to normal.
I think intrusive thoughts are a result of daydreaming about LO so I highly recommend that you find something that is interesting enough to distract you from LO daydreams. I think uncertainty plays a role, too. Uncertainty comes from an LO who seems to engage in hot and cold signaling. It sounds like you are in that very situation and my heart goes out to you.
I assume that your marriage is your first priority. Is your SO a good enough person? Are you safe at home? Do you know anything about the health of your LO’s marriage? Something interesting is that male limerents have a strong protective instinct for their LOs. If they believe that her SO is good for her, they will back away because they want her to be in a safe and happy relationship with her SO. It is fascinating to observe. You may find yourself thinking about how well your LO’s SO takes care of her. You can also use that knowledge to motivate yourself to do the right thing and give your LO some space. Adam is a great example of a Limerent who stays away from his LO because she is in a relationship that is healthy for her. He is also committed to his marriage, but sometimes he uses the fact that his LO’s new SO is good for her to motivate himself to give her space. He takes comfort knowing that she is being taken care of. It is really cool to witness. That may or may not apply to you.
I think some of this information might be a repeat, but since repetition is an effective learning method, I think it’s okay to repeat the same ideas. Sorry if it gets annoying.
I’m glad that you and Mj are talking. Healing happens in community. You can help each other. You’re both experiencing intense symptoms right now. I know it helped me a lot just to have someone I could talk to about my limerence.
Best wishes!
Thank you Lovisa for your detailed and heartfelt post. Will work on this stuff and hope things get better.
You’re welcome ABCD,
So are you saying that when LO is trying to be close, she or you is making conversation? And then sometimes not even acknowledging you at all? If I had to take a guess, I would say she doesn’t seem too interested, but then again, I don’t have an ear on that conversation that may be happening. Usually if she is interested, she will go out of her way to be around you and usually all the time when she sees you. The cold treatment you get kind of speaks for itself.
I guess the next question I should ask is what is your SO not doing for you, so that you feel you need attention from LO?? I mean I get that things happen and especially can happen in the workplace. I was once married myself and had a few work crushes on girls I shouldn’t have had. Ultimately it wasn’t the reason I divorced. But I can say it was never a great situation when I was in the thick of it. I actually did feel like crap when it ended.
Intrusive thoughts suck, and being in the same building with her has to suck too. I’ve totally been there. Maybe find a different job there to do, where you won’t see her. Or as much. Not sure what your hobbies or interests are, but you may need a re-direct. Ask yourself if you are really ready to create drama here for you and this LO? Is it fair for her and her SO? Is she even the type of person capable of stepping out of bounds? And do you want to be with someone who is like this? Don’t forget too, things could get really nasty if she takes you to HR. You have to be so careful these days.
Perhaps none of this is my business and you can choose to disclose what you feel. And do what you feel you need to do. I guess from your story, I don’t see a fuller picture, so I go with what I have. If I have missed something, I’m sure Ms. Lovisa will cover it.
Take care friend. Stay safe..
Thank you so much MJ. Very thankful for the conversation and understanding. I am working over trying to get over the LE, as it is indeed a hugely taxing and draining experience. I see that others have committed to the recovery process, and are moving along well. Hope that things get better.
You’re welcome ABCD, keep us posted on the outcome. Good or bad. Thanks for sharing your story.
Thanks MJ, will do that. Hoping for a good outcome :). Thanks for sharing your LE as well. It is good to interact with others in the same boat.
Another kind of strange day with my LO. She again came into work about 15 min late and went right to her desk to start working. This is a bit unusual as she almost always comes by my office to say hi when she gets in. Also, I can hear everything in our open office and she was quieter than normal not talking to anyone in those first 10 min. About 10 minutes later I wander out and I could see in her face she seemed upset and she basically ignored me as I walked by. About an hour later I had to ask her about some things and she came to my office and seemed a bit cold. At lunch I wandered out again and she was a little more lively. Early afternoon I had to talk about something again and this time she became very warm. I started some chit chat and she was smiley and a little giggly at a few of my witty comments. But it was weird, it was like when someone is sad but wants to forget about what’s bothering them and is just enjoying the present moment but being a little overly emotive about it. That’s the vibe I got.
Something is going on with her and home and again, I stayed out of it and did not ask. In the morning when she was a bit cold in her interaction with me I almost texted her after she left my office to see if she was upset with me for any reason. But I resisted as I didn’t see any reason she would be and it’s not my business.
My LE has been tough lately. I’m feeling some grief over the lack of personal relationship I have with her now due to me being more LC and her indifference. I know it’s probably a good natural progression of being LC, but I just miss her. Hoping it gets better.
Thanks for sharing, Speedwagon. Boy, sounds like a tough day with the conflicting vibes. It takes a lot of courage and strength to go on the path that you are on. Like some of us, NC is not an option, so that makes it much harder, I can imagine. It will be upsetting as you try and pull back. Perhaps she is pulling back as well? I am sure that things will improve with time, hang in there. Best wishes.
Sorry Speedwagon. The grief and flat outlook on life is the worst isn’t it. I admire your ability to see that her behaviour is likely unrelated to you and something that is happening to her alone. And for you to just to leave it well alone. Your self control is impressive.
I thought I had my limerent hopes and reverie under control but I have been slipping over the last few days. This makes me feel much happier right now, but I know it is just setting me up for yet another depressive broken-hearted slump. I even had a sexy dream about LO last night… it was simple but erotic. I truly did not want to wake up! Am wondering if my LE stems more from my lack of marital intimacy than I thought. It is awful to consider that this aspect of my life might be over… I can’t see that side of my marriage ever changing, it has just been too long now. Bah!
Allie, I have hope for your marriage and your sex-life. My LO2 suffered a sexless marriage for 29.5 years. He and his wife are having sex regularly now. They are actually having sex! Can you believe it? The lack of sex stemmed from his wife’s low libido. The way he described it is quite amusing. LO2 is an engineer so he drew a bell curve and explained the principle of the bell curve and outliers. He drew his wife as an outlier on the side of the curve where libidos don’t exist. Funny and sad, but this has been his life. Something changed a few months ago: she talked to one of her girlfriends about sex toys and she decided to give it a try. Now they have a way for him to give her orgasms and both of them are happy. Woohoo!
Their problem was that she didn’t know how to orgasm. It seems like you said your husband is lazy. I wonder what causes that. Maybe the men can brainstorm ideas about why a man would be lazy in bed. I can’t even imagine it. My SO works so hard to please me. He likes to say, “The purpose of my life is to please my wife.” Lol. Of course, that isn’t just a reference to sexual pleasure.
I wonder how we can help your SO. Do you think you would enjoy sex with your SO if you guys tried it? Does the thought appeal to you? Have you tried therapy?
“My SO works so hard to please me. He likes to say, “The purpose of my life is to please my wife.” ”
That is truly lovely Lovisa, you are very lucky. While my SO also loves to please me, he has a much broader set of life purposes than just that. Which is fine with me.
I appreciate the kind words Lovisa. I cannot change what SO does and to him, this is forever tomorrow’s problem. Neither of us want therapy for this. It has been so long now that the idea of it has become a bit icky for me now. Like having sex with a brother. Sex therapy would be like someone that is hungry and loves fruit but dislikes bananas having therapy to enable them to eat an endless diet of bananas.
“It seems like you said your husband is lazy. I wonder what causes that.”
Genetics? My eldest daughter and SOs mother are just the same 🙂
It is more than just lazy… our idea of what constitutes good sex is different and we mostly had the type of sex that pleased him. Orgasm is rarely an issue for me but I need more than just that – I can do that just as well (better!) to myself. He understands what I want, has expressed interest and always promised it but never acted. He is not all that sensual.
I read somewhere that we are supposed to find our lover’s odour attractive… I do not AT ALL for my SO and never have. I often ponder what that means. I sometimes I think my libido and intense limerent desire for SO (and for marriage, a life together, kids, etc) at the start if our relationship allowed me to overlook our basic sexual incompatibility until it was too late. But it was there from the start. I recall thinking “I hope it gets better than this” the first time we had sex. I loved him very very much so I put the effort in to make our sex life more interesting – the best of his life he says. But not the best in mine as the effort, the ideas, the pleasing always came from me. I asked but what I got back was half-hearted at best, as he only really enjoys wham bam. It is hard to enjoy receiving when someone is giving only reluctantly becuase they think they should.
Sorry am going on but this is helpful for me just to say it. Thanks for asking.
So much this, Allie1. Your story of LO2’s situation gives me hope though, Lovisa.
Coming out of a very bad few days regarding the LE (see comments on the most recent blog post about crush that won’t be crushed). Like Allie, it feels so sad and even tragic to think that unless I divorce or have a PA (boy have I been burned there!) then the sexual part of my life is over forever. Ugh.
“Maybe the men can brainstorm ideas about why a man would be lazy in bed.”
Mine wasn’t necessarily laziness, to start, but more timidness and inexperience as my wife was my first. Mix in a little shame from my upbringing and that makes for me doing the basics. I was pretty much that way for close to the first half of our marriage. But even with the basics I always did try my best to make it enjoyable for her.
Then I confessed something to my wife. Something that to me was a thing I was very ashamed of. But she had always encouraged me to express myself sexually to her and that it was nothing to be ashamed of. And she was always so patient for me to get the courage. When I confessed to her what was on my mind she was almost shocked that I found it so shameful.
After that I was able to come out of my shell better and be more expressive sexually and be excited and enjoy things. I even as Miss Lovisa’s LO2 started using sex toys on my wife. Before if she didn’t get where she needed to with sex I would leave the room and let her do what she needed to do alone. Lots of men may not admit, but will get the feelings of inadequacy that they weren’t “good enough” and that’s why she needs something else. But what we, and I eventually did, need to realize is that men and women are just different sexually.
My favorite description of the difference in men and women sexually funny enough come from a special of Jeff Foxworthy. Women are like diesel engines; they take a long time to warm up but once they do they can go and go and go and go …. Men are like bottle rockets *sound of fast explosion* lol It’s so true too.
One thing that helped me a lot besides just trying and experimenting with my wife is reading. I have read several books on female sexuality and orgasm. In fact I have one I still haven’t read yet. Understanding how a woman’s body works is vastly helpful in the bedroom (or wherever else if you don’t have kids lol) and will impress her. And guys you’ll know she impressed without her even saying it. One book I would recommend actually to couples both (I have read it and own it) is She Comes First by Ian Kerner. If you are both mutually into that than this book will quite literally give you guys (or I guess the ladies too) a sliver tongue if you know what I mean *wink*
I guess my rambling comes down to, as always communication. But guys on our end, I promise you, you reap what you sow, you get back what you give, etc. I don’t know how she does it but I know the effort I put is given back to me tenfold. Sometimes more. Being lazy in bed is just as much of a disservice to yourself as it is your partner. Believe me if I had know what I know now from day one, I’d been a much happier man sexually.
“Maybe the men can brainstorm ideas about why a man would be lazy in bed.”
Possibly looking at it from his perspective, what’s sex with you like? Do women know what their SOs like? There were some areas I would have liked to explore but was afraid to bring up. LO #2 had some areas she liked to explore that I didn’t like much.
My bet is you could be married to someone for decades and there would be significant areas that both partners don’t know about each other. You’d like to believe that love is unconditional but that guilt and shame Adam talks about is likely more prevalent than most people believe.
“Well, we all have a face
That we hide away forever
And we take them out and show ourselves
When everyone has gone”
– “The Stranger” – Billy Joel (1977)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6yQ14TGB8U
When I was working with the therapist, one session talked about this.
I haven’t had all that many sexual partners but I’ve had a few. The therapist asked about how the sex was.
I lost my virginity to LO #1. I kind of fumbled my way through things but LO #1 never complained and kept coming back so I guess I did ok.
LO #2 was the most comfortable sex I’ve ever had. We just got down to business and enjoyed each other.
The love-bombing SIL of a coworker was the most intense, in-the-moment, monkey sex you could ask for. It lasted for the week that she was in town visiting.
After my wife and I had our problem in the first 2 years of our marriage, sex with my wife became fraught with anxiety. She never stopped talking during sex. It became easier to avoid sex than to deal with it.
The marriage counselor got us past it but we never truly recovered from it and our marriage wasn’t all it might have been otherwise.
Toss in that there’s probably more naivete about sex than a lot of people will admit and it becomes a potential problem. My father didn’t just give me the “birds and the bees talk,” he trained me on female anatomy, erogenous zones, and sexual techniques. He used Playboy magazine to point things out. He also taught me that if my partner wasn’t enjoying things as much as I was, I was doing it wrong.
There are any number of reasons why a man would be “lazy in bed.”
“Toss in that there’s probably more naivete about sex than a lot of people will admit and it becomes a potential problem. ”
I can relate to this. In addition to only a clinical almost prudish explanation of sex, I was told nothing else. Mix in shame about some sex acts and no sex before marriage and masturbation is a sin, I went into marriage completely clueless as far as sex.
Which made communicating things difficult for me. Sometimes I didn’t know what to ask. Sometimes I didn’t know what, if anything I was doing right or wrong. Thankfully my wife was able to communicate with me a bit better. Than thrown in the bad experiences she had before me with regards to men and sex and it was probably a combination of both of histories that took us so long to actually be 100% open and comfortable. Though I think my wife reached that point long before I did and was just patient with me and never pressured me.
Outside of the effects of her bipolar or migraines we were enjoying a healthy sex life since the time of that sexual epiphany for us both.
Allie, keep it coming. No need to apologize, I want to hear your thoughts. And yes, it is good that your SO has bigger ambitions than pleasing you. My SO says that ever since he noticed my cute butt when we met, making me happy has been his life’s mission. Well, I guess his first mission was to find out my name, lol! He seriously says these things! It’s hilarious and I love it. I tell him (and anyone who will listen) that I married him because I wanted to get down his pants, and I liked his parents. Yeah, we’re not classy people.
Your analogy about the bananas makes sense, and I feel sad for you. I wouldn’t like that. I’ve heard it’s a common thing in marriages to become less like lovers and more like best friends over time. Oh that would be so hard. On the one hand, you aren’t ready to give up your sexuality. But the thought of sex with your partner doesn’t sound appealing. Ugh! Seriously, he only had interest in the wham bam? Interesting. My SO and one of my guy friends think a lot of men are like that. I just can’t understand it. But you understand it because you have been living with it for a long time. I’m sorry, but that is really hard.
There has got to be a solution. Let’s keep brainstorming. I really thought LO2’s sex-life was hopeless, but they found a solution. I understand that their problem was very different than the problem you face, but it gives me hope that these things can be resolved. Maybe there is a solution for you guys.
I’m not ready to give up. Feel free to roll your eyes at me, I deserve it.
Thank you so much, Adam and Limerent Emeritus. Your comments are helpful.
TP, I am sad that you’re in the same boat as Allie. Your perspective about what happens when you resort to a PA helps soooooo much! Thank you for sharing. Yes, LO2’s story is shocking and amazing! I think it’s a lesson for us all. His wife didn’t even know how to have orgasms. That’s not her fault. But it was their problem as a couple.
I’m going to tell you guys a secret. In 2008, my LO1 and I got so close emotionally that it was hard for me to be intimate with my SO. I even cried during sex once. I am soooooo ashamed of myself for it. I even felt repulsed by my SO for a little while. I used the “fake it till you make it” method. I’m not talking about faking orgasms, I’ve never faked an orgasm with my SO because I promised him I wouldn’t before we married. I’m talking about going through all of the motions of being a couple even though it didn’t feel right. And it really didn’t feel right. But that was just a spell. I got through it. I had to go NC with LO1 for about a year. LO1 was angry and somewhat juvenile about it. I also had help from my ecclesiastical leader. That is what worked for me.
Someone on here mentioned that the scent of our mates should be appealing? I’m not sure. I’ve noticed that sometimes when I’m particularly fit and my SO isn’t exercising regularly, his smell repulses me. That has only happened a few times. My LO3 smells sooooo good but I couldn’t tell you what he smells like only that I love it. LO1 smelled good, too. LO2 smells like laundry detergent. My SO smells masculine. It’s nice, but not as alluring as LO3’s smell. I wonder if it has something to do with a person’s physical fitness. I really don’t know. I know smells are important though. I remember when my adopted daughter smelled right to me. She was sitting in my lap and I could smell her hair. I felt my body relax because she smelled familiar. That’s probably weird to you all. I will stop rambling.
Adam,
“Women are like diesel engines; they take a long time to warm up”
Uh … not necessarily. 🙂
“Uh … not necessarily. 🙂 ”
Well as a man I will certainly attest to the delighted surprise of “grabbing me and taking me to the bedroom right now with no questions asked stfu and get down to business” look I get from her now and then.
If we’re brainstorming, here are a few ideas.
1. How sexually assertive are you? – LO #2 and the LBSIL of my coworker were pretty sexually assertive. While my wife always seemed to be willing, she was not assertive.
2. What are you bringing to the bedroom?- As told to me, my mother was one of the “3 hottest women in the neighborhood. ” Dad had a trophy wife, I had a trophy mother. She looked like Mary Tyler Moore in the Dick Van Dyke show.
She went to modeling school and worked events like trade shows. She was also a part time wig model and would bring them home. I would go with her to the salon. I think the owner might have been an affair partner but I thought the guy was a weasel and didn’t like him.
My father never knew who’d be waiting for him when he got home from work.
As I got older, I think that might be kind of cool.
Adam,
“Well as a man I will certainly attest to the delighted surprise of “grabbing me and taking me to the bedroom right now with no questions asked stfu and get down to business” look I get from her now and then.”
There’s a myth that women need a lot of warm up. And a myth that women need a lot of time to reach the destination. Sometimes too much time spent is just that … TOO much time.
There’s also a myth that women are first intellectually and emotionally attracted and then physically attracted. Women are just as capable of visceral, immediate, gut-level attraction as men are.
Marcia, I didn’t know those ideas were myths. They seem true to me. If you have secrets about how a woman can get warmed up faster and reach her destination faster, please share! When my SO can quickly arrive at his destination, I think, “I wish I could do that.”
I’m trying to remember a time when I was sexually interested in a man before I felt emotionally attracted to him. I guess it can happen, but it’s rare. Those experiences were less about the specific man and more about a warm body, and not very satisfying. But it’s been a long time, so maybe I don’t remember it correctly.
You have me so curious…
My experience with my SO… [Dr L stepping in here to pour some cold water on an overheated conversation. Apologies, but I don’t want the Google censors flagging the site]
Adam – thanks for the book suggestions, I think I am going to check that book out!
Finally, the discussion about SO/LO’s scent made me remember a funny story… my SO suffered a serious head injury when she was 20. She made a full recovery except that she permanently lost like 95% of her sense of smell. When we first started dating, apparently she asked her sister to sniff me and report back to her on how I smelled – even though she couldn’t smell, she didn’t want to be going around with a stinky guy. Apparently I passed the sniff test 🤣
“There’s a myth that women need a lot of warm up.”
Absolutely not a myth, this has been thoroughly researched and proven. Men (on avg) experience a high level of “spontaneous desire”, women on avg do not. They tend to experience more “responsive desire” instead. I think this is especially true for women vs men in LTRs. Personally, I only really experience spontaneous desire when I am attracted to someone new or from limerence.
Thanks everyone for your ideas.
[Dr L again. Folks, can we tone this down? This is a limerence support site, not a “tips for spicing up married life” site! If we get blocked by search filters other people will not be able to find the help they need.]
Oh nuts! I missed the good stuff before Dr L censured it.
Allie, you win the award for awesome wife! But, I am so confused. [edit by Dr L] Has your SO ever said why he doesn’t put in more effort?
Lost in Space, thanks for sharing and I’m sorry I missed it. It must have been good.
Allie1,
If I remember correctly, don’t you and your SO, have a one-time pass to use at your discretion?
You’re an adult with agency, why haven’t you used it, yet?
If I got the wrong person, please accept my apology.
Lovisa,
“Marcia, I didn’t know those ideas were myths. They seem true to me. If you have secrets about how a woman can get warmed up faster and reach her destination faster, please share! When my SO can quickly arrive at his destination, I think, “I wish I could do that.””
If a man knows how to move, it can take maybe 15 mins from start to finish.
“I’m trying to remember a time when I was sexually interested in a man before I felt emotionally attracted to him. I guess it can happen, but it’s rare. Those experiences were less about the specific man and more about a warm body, and not very satisfying. But it’s been a long time, so maybe I don’t remember it correctly.”
I’m always physcially attracted first. The rest of it comes later. Maybe.
I have liked a man first and become attracted to him later, but not overwhelming so.
With the strong attractions, the physcial attraction came first.
Allie,
“Personally, I only really experience spontaneous desire when I am attracted to someone new or from limerence.”
Yes, I would say that’s true, but too much warm up is just that … too much.
Longer just means longer. Not better. IMO
Its so hard, isn’t it, Speedy, when someone we care about is hurting and we can’t help them out of self-protection (and in many ways to protect them)? It speaks well of you that you care – you’ve a good heart. But I agree with the other commenters that you need, for your own sake, to stay out of this. You’ve come a long way and you don’t want to backslide.
LiS I identify with a lot of what you wrote below. I’m in a similar situation (the PA was ended by LO, not me, and in an incredibly hurtful way – but I have not suffered any external consequences in terms of SOs/kids on either side). Any my pain, even after almost a year, is acute and requires constant management.
So I am really pleased to hear your life otherwise is going so well. Focus on that and keep on with therapy. I know what you are going through, and really wish you all the very best as you “keep going through it”.
Thanks everyone for the thoughts on my current position with LO – sorry it took a few days to get back to y’all. One thing your comments has had me asking myself these past few days is “do I really want to recover?”
Speedwagon, you wrote “LiS…I think the danger area for both of you is that there is now the reality of an expiration date on your relationship so why not let the guard down and establish closeness again because soon enough you will be out of each other’s lives.”
I personally know 2 different guys who chugged down a bottle of booze in the back seat of a car on their way to rehab. I totally get it – “I’m on my way to recovery, why not just enjoy this one more time?” The thing both of these guys had in common is that neither of them really wanted to go to rehab or get sober – one was strong-armed by family, and the other was getting evicted from his apartment and had to choose between rehab or the homeless shelter. Not surprisingly, both of them relapsed almost immediately after leaving rehab.
And the truth about my situation is that I didn’t actually choose to end the EA with LO. She ended it, and I had no choice but to go along. I actually really wanted it to go on forever, or at least I thought I did. There’s still a big part of me that wants it back.
I think that part of my problem is that I never suffered any actual consequences from the EA. My wife never suspected a thing, and in fact our marriage has gotten much stronger since all of this started. No one at work suspects a thing either. Sure, I experienced a lot of heartbreak and anxiety, but in my mind those feelings were all due to times when LO pulled away or we set boundaries for ourselves, and so part of me keeps thinking “if only I could somehow get her to be all-in on the emotional connection again, then I could just experience the good parts of limerence without the bad”.
And of course I know that’s utter nonsense. It’s like saying I want to get drunk every night but never experience a hangover or have it affect anything else in my life. Wishing for something doesn’t make it possible!
I need to make sure that my rational mind stays firmly in charge. My rational mind knows that this needs to end, that the relationship with LO caused me a TON of distress and inevitably would cause more distress if it got going again, and that I’ve just been lucky so far to avoid any serious consequences.
This is actually the absolutely perfect time to walk away. My marriage is doing great. My relationship with my kids is great. Everything’s fine at work. I’m doing good work with our marriage counselor and my personal therapist (younger me never imagined that I’d have 2 therapists at the same time and that I’d love therapy so much). I mostly like myself and don’t have too much guilt or remorse. I got the ego boost of knowing an attractive woman wanted me. LO still has positive feelings toward me despite all the pain I caused her. Basically, everything is going way better than I have any right to expect. Put that way, I know there’s nothing to gain by trying to rekindle my relationship with LO, and so much to lose.
“The secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits” (Drive-By Truckers – A World of Hurt”)
“The secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits”
Love this! So true.
Glad everything else is going well for you LiS. Having hope and purpose in life certainly makes dealing with the limerence come down that bit easier.
LIS,
You’re in a good spot.
The next phase will be avoiding a relapse. A lot of that depends on luck. Don’t give her a reason to reach out to you. That can be hard since much of an LE is manufacturing reasons to get them to think about you and engage you and you may have already done that. There are blogs in the index on relapse and when LOs return. I think you’re more at risk for the latter.
I found therapy to be kind of fun once I was out of crisis mode. You can learn a lot about yourself with the right therapist and a willing attitude. A lot of it can be very unflattering but you come out better for confronting it.
I think you are heading in the right direction, Lost in Space (side note: my autocorrect always wants to call you “Lost in Spaces” lol). I’m happy that you can list the benefits of your experience and the blessings in your life.
Something stood out to me. You mentioned that your family and acquaintances didn’t catch on about your LE. That might be true, but they probably noticed changes in your behavior and didn’t know what was causing those changes. I could be wrong, but I think we leak our limerence more than we think. I’ll give you an example. My LO3 waited a week and a half to really discuss his 100-mile race with me. We had brief interactions during that time, but nothing satisfying. I was sad, but I thought I handled it well. I noticed that I was more present with my family and more calm. I felt like I was improving. Then, out of nowhere, LO3 sent me a text that he wanted to have a phone call. I remember the relief that came over me. I suddenly became more playful and happier with my family. My SO noticed and described it like this, “[Lovisa], it’s like a dark cloud hung over you for a week and then suddenly the sun came out.” My SO pointed it out because it triggered insecurities in him. He began to wonder what role he plays in my life. He even read the LwL comments and identified my alias. He read what I wrote here because he wanted to figure out what was happening with me. That really hurt my feelings, but we worked through it. My point is that we are leaking our limerence more than we think. I have a rare situation where my SO knows what is happening and he can give me feedback. You don’t have that. I suspect when you leak, your family and friends notice, but they don’t know what causes your behavior to change. It’s just a guess.
I’m glad you’re seeing a marriage therapist and a personal therapist.
Yes you sure are lucky to have avoided those consequences LiS.
I’m really glad it’s all working out for you. Consider yourself blessed.
If I had even a fraction of your good fortune today, I’d probably have to keep pinching myself, to make sure it wasn’t all a dream.
Keep up the good work friend..
Thanks MJ – it’s always important to be reminded to be grateful for all the good things I have rather than focusing on my distress over the one person I can’t have. It’s a sad fact of human nature that it’s so easy to focus on what’s just beyond our grasp while ignoring all the good things we already have.
And yeah, it’s actually terrifying to think that a couple of months ago, I was right on the edge of making one wrong decision that could have cost me everything I’ve spent decades building – my marriage, my relationship with my kids, my job, many of my friends, and my self respect. The only thought scarier than that is the thought of how badly I could have hurt my poor wife. All because of limerence. What a dangerous thing it is.
Btw, I want to say how much I respect you and how glad I am that you’ve joined this community here. You were super open and honest telling your story, and you receive some pretty harsh tough love responses that I’m certain were very hard to read. I think a lot of people would have either reacted defensively or just left and never come back. You took your lumps, did a lot of introspection, and kept engaging. I really respect that a lot, and it gives me a lot of faith that you’re going to get through this experience and come out the other side stronger and better than before.
I’m curious – what kinds of things do you enjoy? What gives your life meaning and purpose? (before LO, I mean). What are some things you always wanted to do in life but never tried previously?
Happy to be here LiS. You are absolutely correct that I felt somewhat offended by the replies I received from my story.. In a way, I felt like I should have replied back defensively. I felt defeated by my efforts here, right out the gate. Because I guess all I wanted was someone who would tell me my LO was was actually interested.
There was no way I could be so off base. This whole LE has totally snuck up and knocked the holy wind right out of me. I have never felt like this about any one person in my entire life. Ever! She has become someone who feels so important to me, someone I can’t get enough of. Someone whom I adore and would love to know every little thing about, since the day she was born. Its just that crazy intense. I felt like many of you expected me to just shut her off. While I kept reading all the other blogs that seemed like you were all struggling too and yet, telling my story in the way that I did, was exactly that same reason why I decided to post it in the first place.
So I had to step back a few days. Because I was very irritated. Considering never to come back..
I read and re-read all your replies again. And realized at some point, this LE is always going to need management. That you really all meant well and no harm whatsoever. It was my lousy, big, dumb, fat ego getting in the way. I realized I needed you all way more than I thought. Only because you’re all here anyway for feeling the way you do about your LO’s. I wanted to keep reading about your failures, successes, and what ever other struggles you all faced and continue to deal with. And I realize this is going to take way more time than I thought.
I like to think LO is someone who came into my life for a reason. And while I may never know quite know what that entire reason is, I pray with your help, for the clarity to maybe get me to understand this, for better or for worse.
LO has wrecked me in so many ways and yet I feel such an intense love for her, so much appreciation. How she forces me to look at myself and maybe not always for the better. She’s such an important person to me. I question if I’ll ever be right again. Or will I ever be able to love anyone else ever again. She’s still Gods most perfect creation. She still glimmers for me in every dream. Or whenever I see her. She makes all my problems go away. I sound like I’ve lost my mind, and in a huge way I know I have. But with LO, I sometimes don’t know if I even want to find it. I could get lost in her forever. And I wouldn’t mind one single bit.
Do I need therapy or what?? Thank you LiS for believing in me. That I’m going to get through this. Thank you for your respect I so do not deserve. Nor God’s good grace. I’m a terrible Catholic and a horrible Christian. Yet with each new day, there is always fresh hope..
To answer your question, which has never really been asked of me. I find a very real and true connection with my faith through music. My ex and I met at the church we attended when we were kids. I was in the Boys Choir, and she was in the Girls Choir. Over the years we just got more involved with it. When I got away from singing, I became an Instrumentalist with the Schola Adult Choir and eventually an Assistant Organist. She also became a member of the Schola and also a Cantor. It was planned I would attend College for Liturgical Music studies, and maybe even majoring in Organ performance. Yet that would never materialize. But music has always been a passion of mine. And if I could connect with anyone who ever felt closer to God, through my music, then I felt like that was my purpose.
Eventually her and I fell in love, planned for a family and would marry. Guess I wasn’t very good at that. We divorced in 2011.
It’s been a long road traveled. One paved with many speed bumps. But I think I’m a better person for it. Most of the time.
These days, I work in the Auto Industry. A life I didn’t really plan for, but has served me well. I have always considered moving out
West or maybe to Canada or Alaska or possibly New Zealand. But I probably won’t. I hate moving from one little town to the next. I can’t imagine a cross country move would be any better.
Hope that answers your questions. Going to hit the hay soon. I’m tired.
I’m glad MJ that you took those initial responses as care and concern and you are now part of this community and finding some understanding.
Mj, I’m glad you stuck around, too. If you continue to work through your limerence, you might figure out why it happened.
“You are absolutely correct that I felt somewhat offended by the replies I received from my story.. In a way, I felt like I should have replied back defensively”
This was my initial thoughts about you when I first read your story and saw the comments that I did before I made mine. I was wondering if you would ever come back. I think a lot of us are looking for understanding with our limerence. And the truth of said limerence can sometimes be hard to swallow. I know my wife’s initial reaction to my limerence was much harsher than I was expecting. But then what was should I have expected with “sugar there’s another woman in my head and I can’t get her out and it’s not my fault cause it’s neuroscience?” But I am glad you stuck around MJ. While our situations are different I can totally relate to how you feel about LO.
“She has become someone who feels so important to me, someone I can’t get enough of.”
More and more I start to understand why the glimmer hit me AFTER I stopped getting to see LO everyday. It’s that addiction. Once I didn’t get to see her everyday the craving hit me. And then that next time I got to see her and wow that smile, those pretty green eyes. I was hooked. I totally understand the intensity for LO. It is staggeringly a shock now, being so close to the hopeful end of this LE. But I understand the intense desire to know her, protect her, shelter her, fight for her, be there for her in every way possible. And nothing would stand in my way.
“I like to think LO is someone who came into my life for a reason.”
I’d like to think the same. Even if, for in my case, it was to test my resolve in my marriage. But I would certainly like to think that there was a more pleasant reason that she came into my life for the time that she did. There was numerous dominoes that had to fall almost over a year’s time for me to even have met LO at the job. The amount of decisions on the part of many other people with regards to the job that had to be made for LO to come into my life it almost seemed like fate that I met her. And I am a very skeptical about that kind of bs. But damn it felt like the stars aligned so that she could be in my life.
“She makes all my problems go away.”
There’s a line in a song that is almost haunting when it comes to thinking about LO (and I’ll post a link at the end). In the song the man laments to the “other” woman how to tell his partner about her. He mentions positive things about his partner but than says “everything seems right whenever I’m with you” about the “other” woman. If that isn’t relatable. The free and wonderful feeling that LO gives you. It’s like being lifted off the ground. This dizzy feeling of innocence. The light that she shines is so bright it blinds you. This angel that God sent to Earth. And yeah you forget all your problems. LO becomes a bottle of vodka, that makes all your worries go away.
Because there is no responsibility in LO. There is only sweet escape. You know LO in one context. In both of our cases, on the job. You don’t know LO’s faults, trials, life history, family situations, etc. All you see is what LO puts out in the one context that you know her. That’s why she can shine with the intensity of an angel. What she wants you to see about her (whether that’s because she senses you feel something about her or not) is what you see. You only know what she shares. I don’t think the sun itself could shine as bright as LO and it blinded me to reality. Even if LO had no manipulative motives for what she showed of herself, in reality that’s still all I knew about her. I may not have been limerent for my wife but the same thing happened a few years into our marriage. We got married very fast after meeting each other. But as time went on from the start we both started seeing and observing the traits and actions that we didn’t tell each other about prior to marriage. Before that my wife could do no wrong and she was my world and nothing about her was short of perfect. Reality has a way of being harsh.
” But I think I’m a better person for it.”
This is what I am trying to take away from this LE. I am trying to look at it as a learning experience. I am trying to find the things that improved in me as a person, husband and father. I try to tell myself that the knowledge I have now about limerence can protect me in the future. Life is full of lessons. And I remember the saying that people that come into my life are either a lesson or a blessing. But I think LO was both. God bless her for that.
How Can I Tell Her About You — Lobo
https://youtu.be/tDUoWlEvZgQ
Hey MJ! Thanks for sharing more about yourself and about your LE.
“Someone whom I adore and would love to know every little thing about, since the day she was born. Its just that crazy intense”
I completely understand that feeling. I feel the exact same way about my LO. I actually told her that once – “I don’t know why, but I feel like I just want to know every single thing about you”. And simultaneously, I felt a compelling urge to tell her every single thing about me, including some pretty deep secrets that I’ve literally told no one else in my life.
For therapy, I’m seeing an old-school, Jungian psychologist, who’s been talking with me a lot about the concept about anima projection. I wrote a lot about it earlier in this thread so you can find it if you haven’t read it already, but the basic concept is that males have this repressed feminine part of ourselves in our unconscious mind, and that at particular times in our lives, we project that part of our hidden mind onto another human being – the projection is probably triggered by a combination of meeting a person with certain characteristics, combined with certain conditions occurring in our own lives. The projection can be super powerful as we all know well
But my psychologist’s basic point is that no matter how much it feels like the experience is about the other person, it’s really about ourselves. And that an experience like this, as overwhelming and painful and distressing as it can be, can also be the key to unlocking parts of ourselves that we don’t know yet or that have been locked away dormant for decades. And so the key to dealing with a limerence experience is to first get enough separation from the LO to be able to get somewhat back into our right minds and begin to peel back the projection (and all of the blog posts here are super helpful for figuring out how to do that), and then to really dive into learning about ourselves and trying to figure out what the experience is trying to teach us.
In my case, my psychologist and I are working on getting me back in touch with some parts of myself that I’d kind of lost over the years. Like you, I’ve always found a lot of meaning and value in music and used to be an active musician playing in everything from rock bands to church ensembles. I loved the creative process of writing and recording music with my bands, and the thrill of playing for other people. Over the years, marriage, kids and career all took away the time that I used to spend on music, and while I still listen to music and play occasionally around the house, it’s not nearly a part of my life like it used to be.
Similarly, I used to spend a lot of time in nature. I’d get outdoors any chance I got – hiking, camping, snowshoeing, fishing. I spent a summer living and working in a national park when I was younger, and that was one of the best times in my life. That’s another part of me I’ve kind of lost touch with due to the years and responsibilities.
And so part of my limerence recovery involves diving more into music and into nature, which I see as a way to reconnect with my authentic self. I wasn’t sure from your post – are you still playing music regularly? Are you playing in church or with a group? Or is that a part of yourself that you let drift away? Is it something you could throw yourself into now?
“I have always considered moving out
West or maybe to Canada or Alaska or possibly New Zealand. But I probably won’t. I hate moving from one little town to the next. I can’t imagine a cross country move would be any better.”
That’s interesting to think about. On one hand, there’s the saying “wherever you go, there you are” – we can’t outrun our problems if they’re coming from inside our own minds. On the other hand, in addiction recovery we talk a lot about changing “people, places and things” – sometimes a fresh start somewhere new is necessary. For example, shortly after I quit drinking for good, my wife and I moved cross country for school, and it was very helpful for me to start over again with a new set of sober friends who only knew me as a non-drinker. So sometimes, when a person finds themselves stuck in a rut repeating the same behaviors over and over again, a move can be a good reset.
Short of that, what about planning a trip somewhere you’ve always wanted to go? I love trip planning – I can immerse myself for hours thinking about where to go, where to stay, where to eat, what to do. I’m currently planning a little 3 day trip to the mountains in Utah in a couple of weeks – just me, no wife and kids. Planning the trip has been a good exercise for me in introspection – thinking about if I have 3 days all to myself, what kind of things do I want to do? So far, I have tickets to see a musician that I love but have never seen before, and a bunch of hikes and outdoor exploration planned. Music and nature. Maybe you have some time off coming and could plan a big adventure for yourself?
Finally – you said you deserve neither my respect nor God’s grace. I disagree. Years of work in substance recovery (both as a recovering addict myself and as a health care professional working in addiction treatment) make me have tons of respect for anyone who is struggling with overwhelming feelings, compulsions and addictions but is still working every day to get better. I have nothing but respect for anyone who gets up every day and engages in the struggle to improve, or some days just to survive the day.
And as for God’s grace – well, what I learned in church is that none of us deserve it, but He gives it to us anyway – that’s why it’s Grace.
LIS, you and I could probably be good friends. I am a long time electric guitar player in rock bands and church bands as well. In fact, just bought myself a new Les Paul. I love playing music and I play fairly regularly with other people these days.
I also am a long time nature fan and have hiked around and climbed a number of mountains. In fact, I spent 3 years of my 20s working as a mountaineering guide. Of course career, kids, life make it tougher these days, but I still try to find time to get out a couple times a year.
I’ve been a practicing Christian for quite some time, and as far as faith and limerence go, I have made peace that this is a struggle I don’t understand but that God’s grace is sufficient. I try not to get caught up in the idea of LE being a numinous occurance, because I don’t think it is, but at the same time it’s hard not to ask “why?” from a faith perspective. Quite honestly I’ve struggle with a lot of anger towards God over all this.
Speedwagon – we’ll definitely have to jam and go on some hikes at the upcoming LWL summer convention 🙂
With you on that anger @Speedwagon. Not necessarily towards God, but more myself. For backing myself into this LE corner. Always considered LO so out of my league. Never thought for a second, if I even got a little interested in her, it could blow up into this unbelievably huge LE phenomenon.
Instead of being mad at God, I just beg God to show me why LO happened. Why this has crippled me almost and makes my heart hurt..
I’m on the roster of readers for my church so about once a month I read one of the daily bible verses to the congregation during the Sunday service. One Sunday in February, while deep in the throes of my emotional affair and seriously wrestling with some potentially life-altering decisions, I was called on to read this verse:
Sirach 15:15-20
“If you choose, you can keep the commandments,
and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
He has placed before you fire and water;
stretch out your hand for whichever you choose.
Before each person are life and death,
and whichever one chooses will be given.
For great is the wisdom of the Lord;
he is mighty in power and sees everything;
his eyes are on those who fear him,
and he knows every human action.
He has not commanded anyone to be wicked,
and he has not given anyone permission to sin.“
That hit hard.
LiS, it’s Verses like those, where I always make that comment about being a terrible Catholic and a horrible Christian. Because it does hit hard and does make me want expel all the crap in my life. Yet we all fall short. Even if we went on every day, and did the best we could, we still wouldn’t be good enough in God’s eyes. It’s just humanity. So that’s kind of a place where I begin trying not to hate on myself too much. But its still hard Bro. No matter how you cut it.
To answer your question, music did get away from me.. Once I started family and decided that is where life would take me, I kind of put the music away. I still love to play now and then but haven’t as active as I’d like.
I haven’t been on a trip in years. Not even by myself. But going alone to hike somewhere, at least for myself would seem redundant. I say that because I’m an only-child. So I am always alone. I would much rather be with someone if I did something like that.
It would be great if this little association we’ve made here from this forum, could see a trip through on a hike somewhere. Or maybe a weekend camping trip. Would be fun to get to know one another, and at night, we sit around the fire and talk all about our LO’s.
Just a thought. I guess.
Maybe during that LwL Summer Convention, right??
Hi MJ,
I wonder if your LE can serve as a catalyst for getting you to do some things that would be great for yourself. Maybe getting back into playing music again? Or seeking spiritual experiences that reconnect you to your faith?
My last 3 LEs have all occurred while I was married, so in all of those cases, the goal was to end the limerence. In my first LE, however, I was single and there were really no barriers toward me pursuing a relationship with her, except that by the time LO1 and I were both single at the same time, we were deep in the friend zone and I just couldn’t bring myself to take the chance to disclose my feelings to her. Plus I had the impression that she wasn’t interested in me in that way, and I thought rejection was the most likely outcome if I did disclose
Anyway, I remember at that time that I decided to use my pent up limerent energy to make myself better. I started imaging for myself all of the things that would make myself more attractive to her, or to a woman like her. I’d say to myself “what does a woman like that want?” And I told myself, for now, I’m just going to focus on making myself better, and then maybe this wonderful woman will fall in love with me, and if not, then maybe some other equally wonderfl woman will.
So I basically spend the next year not even pursuing her or anyone else, but just focusing on living my life and self-improvement. I got in better shape physically. I got really into my music and my band. I applied myself more to my studies (I was in school at the time). Read a lot of good books. Tried to cut back on my drinking. Got a lot better at cooking. Stuff like that.
And the funny thing is that she never did show any signs of being attracted to me, but after a year of just focusing on being the best me I could be, I met my wife at one of my band’s show, and the chemistry was instant and I immediately forgot all about my feelings for LO1.
So maybe you can channel all of your limerence and emotions into a whole lot of self improvement and growth. It’s like that allegory about how if you want to have beautiful butterflies living in your backyard, you can either run around all over town with a net trying to catch them and bring them home and hope they don’t fly away, or you can spend your time growing a beautiful garden in your yard and eventually the butterflies will come to you
Try this – think to yourself “I bet a woman like that wants a guy who ________”. And then use that as motivation to make whatever changes you want to make in your life. Maybe there’s some foundational things you need to attend to first, like dealing with any addictions, getting financially stable, working with a therapist on mental health. Or maybe all of that is actually pretty solid, so you can focus on the stuff higher on the pyramid like becoming a brilliant and talented musician who’s in great shape, is spiritually enlightened, well read, has some interesting hobbies… basically, whatever you would really want for yourself in the future, use all of your limerence as a motivator – you can tell yourself that you’re doing it all for LO, but the secret is that really you’re doing it for yourself!
These were some really nice words and ideas LiS. Just got around to reading this, after forgetting about the thread. Wish I could find/re-read all my posts to see who replied, when they posted.
Lis, this song matches your situation: “When will I see you again” by The 3 Degrees , it’s a beautiful song.
Yes it is. I grew up listening to stuff like this on my parents LP’s, 45’s and 8-tracks. Very beautiful and relatable song when it comes to limerence.
https://youtu.be/WgTzauT58xA
Hi Adam. I love music, all kinds from classical to pop and all in between.
Check this out: “Album The very best of Shirley Bassey”. site: Lito Talucod. Idk how to post it. But my favorite of them all is : And I love you so from Shirley Bassey concert in Melbourne.
Music soothes the minds of the Limerents that are going thru pain and sorrows. If you want to get even , Lou Rawls song, “ You’ll never find another love like mine” is the one to cheer you up, at least, it gives you some consolation…
Stay well and strong please.
Thank you Nisor. That is a beautiful song indeed. I have to admit, I kind of like the thought of my LO having a dream about me decades from now and calling me up and telling me I’m still her beloved. Although after hearing about how distressing it’s been for you, I know I shouldn’t wish it on her.
My LO and I used to send each other songs a lot. I’ve been learning the saxophone, and on two occasions she sent me requests and asked me to learn them for her.
The first request came shortly after I’d told her that I loved her madly but that I could never leave my wife for her:
Richard Marks – Right Here Waiting
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S_E2EHVxNAE
The second came towards the end of our relationship, just a little while before she asked me to stop calling and texting her and went cold:
Whitney Houston – I Will Always Love You
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3JWTaaS7LdU
I cried so hard listening to that song after she sent her request, because I knew inside what she was telling me. I still recorded it and sent it to her. She’s always told me that she deleted all of our texts and videos each day before going home, but I’d like to think she kept that one somewhere safe for herself.
David Gates of Bread (and had a solo career after) made some amazingly well written songs on the subject of lost love or unrequited love. Amazingly enough the last time I read something about him, he is still married to his high school sweetheart from the late 50’s if I remember right. You’d think a man that wrote the songs he did, would have had a life full of heartbreak.
On her last day this song was heavily on my mind. Though instead of in the case of the song, the singer is leaving, she was leaving. I never could say goodbye. I wouldn’t admit it. That I might never see her again.
“If I told her see you later
then I might be wrong
cause this voice inside
is driving me
to find where I belong
and I know I must leave her now”
I Can’t Find The Words To Say Goodbye — David Gates
https://youtu.be/gYLWldJ_kEo
Some other good ones are …
Aubery
Take Me Now
Lost Without Your Love
Sweet Surrender
Hooked On You (this a fun happy one)
Look What You’ve Done
Everything I Own
Make It With You
Baby I’m-a Want You
Goodbye Girl
Never Let Her Go
LIS,
Yeah, when it comes to limerence music, Richard Marx ranks right behind Jim Steinman except Steinman only writes the music. Other people sing his stuff.
When I was in the LE/EA with LO #4, I put Marx’ greatest hits on my playlist. It’s still there buy I skip through it now.
Yes, that one! I’ll always love you makes me cry too.
But my favorite is: “ And I love you so”, Shirley Bassey. What a song, what a voice and performance! Precious!
After limerence starts to fade away, because of the impossibilities, what’s left is a tremendous sorrow, deep inside your heart, a humbleness that brings you closer to God. Never saw such sorrow and humbleness but in Oscar Wilde’s, De Profundis, his prohibited love story, and how it all changed him to find his real soul and purpose in life. You can find it in the internet. At the beginning he gives too much details but oh boy it becomes so pungent it gets to your bones and spirit….
Sending you all my fellow Limerents all my love and courage to continue strong and firm.
@nisor, With you there on that tremendous sorrow.
Thanks for the love and courage…
Hi Lis. “ The first request came shortly after I’d told her that I loved her madly but that I could never leave my wife for her.” Wow, that’s a killer statement, no wonder she went cold!!! You’re making your choice right there, it’s a clear rejection ! Her self esteem and dignity must be terrible after that, knowing that she’ll always be the mistress. No, no, no I would be totally depressed and run as far away from you as I could. That’s first class kind of pain. A knockout! A heavy burden to bear , really hope she can recover from it. She sounds strong and determined to move on without you. That’s good. But moving on and the passing of time cures a good chunk of things….
Stay strong and in peace with your decisions.
Nisor,
It’s a terrible thing any time two people fall madly in love (or mutual limerence) when one or both of them is married, because there’s almost no possible way for it to end without at least one person getting their heart broken.
This was not something either of us wanted to have happen. We both knew we were doing something wrong by allowing ourselves to get close to each other while knowing I was married. But I think we both told ourselves that it would be ok, that it would just feel good to talk a lot and get to know each other and maybe express some affection for each other – after all, we were just talking and texting a lot, it’s not like we were sending each other sexy photos or having a physical affair. At least that’s what we were telling ourselves, but in reality we were playing a very dangerous game by opening our hearts to each other and allowing our feelings to develop and grow.
In a relatively short period of time, the feelings grew completely out of control and we were both overwhelmed and shocked after disclosing our feelings to each other. Neither of us had ever been in a situation like this before. We both knew in our heads that the right thing to do would be to go NC, but our hearts couldn’t bring ourselves to do it. We told ourselves that we’d just keep talking all the time as friends but keep the feelings to ourselves – as if that was possible.
One day, about a month after we disclosed our feelings, she texted me saying something like “I really love talking and texting with you, but it makes me sad that this is the only interaction I get with you”. And I responded that I felt the same way, and we talked about how we felt so trapped because we wanted so much more of a relationship with each other but we couldn’t. And that’s when we started having these really crazy conversations where basically she was trying to figure out if there was any chance I’d leave my wife for her, and I was trying to figure out if she would be willing to be my mistress (I feel very ashamed of this now, but I can’t deny that was my mindset at the time). And I made it clear that I’d never leave my wife because it would hurt her so bad and be so unfair to her, and LO told me that she could never be a mistress in a full blown affair, but that she also wasn’t ready to stop talking with me completely. (and to be clear, she NEVER pushed me in any way to leave my wife for her, and in fact told me many times that she would hate herself forever if I did and she was responsible for hurting my SO like that, but for awhile she definitely was asking questions to see if it was a possibility).
We had a series of conversations like that, always over the phone because by then we weren’t trusting ourselves to be alone together, just trying to work through our feelings and find some way out of this no-win situation. The day after the first one of those conversations, when we agreed that we needed to stop pretending we could have a real future together as a couple, we saw each other in passing in the office and made eye contact. For as long as I live, I’ll never forget the look of abject heartbreak in her eyes, and it breaks my heart again every time I think of that look. It felt so terrible to cause such pain to someone I loved so much.
So I decided to just try to content myself with whatever interactions I could have with her – if I couldn’t be a real relationship with her like I wanted, I’d have to be content to just get to talk to her as much as possible. Even if I couldn’t ever see her in person, I told myself I’d be happy to just talk to her on the phone during her drive home, just to spend 30 minutes hearing her voice and hearing about her day. And that’s how we continued for a couple of months, but it was so hard because we both wanted so much more.
LO and I both craved a full relationship with each other, but ultimately neither of us was willing to destroy a marriage and a family in order to have each other. The difference was that my feeling was “If I can’t have all of you, I’d rather have a small piece of you than not have you in my life at all”, while to her it was “if I can’t have all of you, I need to have none of you, because it’s too painful to keep you in my life otherwise”. I know that she’s right – it would have been far more painful in the long run to keep the feelings high between us but never really get to share a life together. But it was also very painful to give up even the limited relationship that we had, and I still miss her very much.
“it’s a clear rejection ! Her self esteem and dignity must be terrible after that”
Oh, I so badly hope that this isn’t true. I always tried to make it abundantly clear to her that I wasn’t rejecting her, that I absolutely love and adore her and thinks she’s the most wonderful person, and that if our circumstances were different I would absolutely want to be in a relationship with her and spend my life with her. I just couldn’t do that one thing, to rip the heart out of my wife of 20 years. LO had recently been through a real rejection, having her husband leave her for another woman a couple years ago, and her self esteem was already in a very low place, so I hope that in some way, all of the feelings I expressed for her were good for her self esteem, knowing that a man like me found her so lovable and desirable that I would have gladly spent the next 20 years just talking to her on her drive home just to hear her voice and share a little piece of her life.
And I THINK that’s how she feels at the end of this – not rejected by me, but a victim of circumstances. That’s why it’s been so important to me to make sure this ends well, that I never say a negative word to her no matter how hurt I might feel about her ending it, because I want her to go forward in life thinking about this as a tragic love story about two people who loved each other with all their hearts but were prevented from being together by larger circumstances, and NOT as a case of someone rejecting her. That’s my hope anyway.
I think the two songs she sent me represent very well how her feelings about the situation evolved. In “Right Here Waiting”, which she sent me in January, the singer pledges to be there waiting for as long as it takes for the other person to become available. In “I Will Always Love You”, which she sent me a couple of months later, the singer is resolved to walk away from a situation that isn’t meant to be, even though she still loves the other person very much. I know that’s the choice she made, and I know that it’s the right one and I respect her for it.
“I personally know 2 different guys who chugged down a bottle of booze in the back seat of a car on their way to rehab.”
I can completely relate to this. At least when it comes to if I were in that postion. You do have to want to recover from any addiction for any kind of therapy or rehab to work. Even if your hand is forced, like LO leaving, you still have to want to be get over the addiction for her to be successful. I’ve overcome some addictions in my time, but one still hangs over me and it is for that very reason.
LO addiction is no different. The difference in my effort to overcome this addiction is that I do want to. I can see the damage that it has done and the people that I have hurt. But I also know how many small things I am letting be the “chugging down a bottle” with LO. I’m still holding on even though the rope is cutting through my hand. All my addictions have been substances. I never knew one of the hardest addictions to overcome in my life would be a person.
“All my addictions have been substances. I never knew one of the hardest addictions to overcome in my life would be a person.”
Song of the Day: “Hard Habit To Break” – Chicago (1984)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlq_BC1Iyd4
Maybe not a precise fit but pretty close.
1984 was the apex of my relationship with LO #2. I wouldn’t sing this for another 3 years.
Had forgotten all about that song. I think it was the mid 90’s when I discovered them and got my first Chicago CD. I had heard some of their current songs at the time on the radio. The only close to exposure I had to them before that would have been Peter Cetra’s Glory of Love on the Karate Kid 2 movie that was a frequent watch for me at that age. Though at the time I had no idea he had been a part of Chicago or who Chicago was.
That song hits a whole lot different. Ironic or funny, not sure, how songs can be so much different when your perspective or life experiences change and then some songs that you were previously indifferent to now bore into your skull like a drill.
*songs currently played at the time on the radio*
I even proofread it too smh
Adam,
Like it, link it!
“The Glory of Love” – Peter Cetera (1986)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axSlMfTaiJQ
This sounds more like it should be dedicated to your SO, not your LO.
I was talking about Hard Habit To Break, that you posted, in regards to LO. If I remember right The Glory of Love was a song I actually sang to my wife. But I sing a lot to her. And my favorite song to dance with her to in the kitchen when I’m drinking more of the wine than using it for cooking lol
Slow Dancing Swaying To The Music — Johnny Rivers
https://youtu.be/tmiNLVTDFDI
I love Johnny Rivers!
My favorite is “Baby, I Need Your Lovin'” (1967)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veRQhHFZx_o
I especially love the background vocals near the end.
That’s a great one too. Story time; first time I played that and we danced my wife told me when she was young she thought Johnny was singing “secret asian man” lol. I said I can see that if you didn’t see the title. I did. My mother liked Johnny Rivers and Johnny Mathis and had an 8-track for both of them and a 45 of Slow Dancing. I played all three a lot
Secret Agent Man — Johnny Rivers
https://youtu.be/tlWqK83JP8I
So…had a backslide today. These last few weeks I had been feeling quite disconnected from LO due to a lot of disciplined LC I had been doing. Just blah work interactions that would last 10-20 min at best. This has been causing me to feel some level of grief over loss of relationship with LO.
Today, however, we needed to do some collaboration on some work so she came into my office for about an hour first thing in morning. That collaboration was quite normal. But then I needed to run out for about an hour and half to meet a client, and it was for work that LO is working on, so I asked her if she wanted to come with. She said yes. So we spent about hour in car together…alone…talking. When we got back to the office we had to finish up some additional collaboration and she spent another hour in my office but this time we chatted most of the time about personal stuff. Nothing heavy, but really fun chit chat nonetheless.
It felt really good to get back connected with her on a personal level. We had not had that level of communication for probably 2 months. And we have such great chemistry when we get talking. We see eye to eye on a lot of things, we make each other laugh, we playfully tease each other. It just clicks with her, and it can feel like she knows it too. Knowing she has had a tough week personally (we did not talk her problems at all) I hope this felt nice for her as maybe an escape with some who cares for her.
Question now is, how does this affect me this weekend? Do I hit a bad low later or can I come out this feeling OK? I am hoping I feel OK and that moving forward I just remain diligent not to pursue her but let moments of natural connection happen?
So hard to constantly navigate this and I know I am not really a true friend without motives, but I hate the thought of also being no friend at all and just a boss.
On a side note, my other woman friend from the office was working from home today and she sent me a very nice unsolicited ‘good morning’ text this morning. That made me smile as I do really like her, just not in a romantic way at all.
Dang Speedwagon! You were quite the ladies’ man today.
In all seriousness, that is the kind of contact that sends our limerent brains into overdrive. If you can, try to think about something else. If you get through this with minimal symptoms… well, that would be a huge leap towards recovery. Let’s not panic yet. Please try not to replay the experiences with LO in your mind. You can do it. You are strong and determined. I believe in you.
Lol, ladies man might be way too generous.
I just hit a low spot with my emotions over LO and gave in to some connection with her. I think because I disclosed I can see these times together with her more clearly from her perspective and not go down the rabbit hole of wondering if she has romantic interest, I know she does not. But as you have stated many times before, I do think she feels closeness to me and enjoys it. Her demeanor is always very positive during these moments together.
I actually had a therapy session yesterday after work, which was nice to have after the day with LO, and my therapist told me something interesting. I have always had this complaint that LO seems so self absorbed and never really pursues or initiates much interest in me when we talk. My therapist said that because LOs home life is stressful with her difficult husband and financial circumstances, she always has to be the caregiver looking out for everyone else’s well being and holding things together. It’s probably exhausting for her and work is an escape where someone else cares for her and she can talk about herself. She doesn’t want to take interest in me, she wants me to take interest in her. This makes so much sense and gives me appreciation that she feels safe to do that with me.
I need to stay diligent with limited contact and not start to pursue LO regularly but at the same time I sometimes need that release of pent up emotional frustration and connect with LO. Yesterday was exactly that. It’s a balancing act but today I still feel OK so maybe it was the right move.
That does make sense! Your therapist was helpful.
You are right that it is a balancing act with LO. My heart goes out to you because you have so much contact with her. It would be hard. I had a conversation with my LO two days ago and it left me craving more. I thought of you and how hard it would be to have so much contact.
I distracted myself from thinking about LO, yesterday. I got online and looked at races. I have my eye on a 50-mile race in the fall. That gives me five months to prepare. I get giddy just thinking about it! I’m not ready to sign up, yet, but I am ready to increase my weekly mileage and elevation gain to work towards it. What a great distraction! My SO is thinking about doing one of the shorter distances at the same race. He is excited, too. I love this feeling! I am cycling through intense feelings of excited and nervous and curious.
I’m glad you are feeling okay today.
Yeah, Speedy,
Listen to your therapist.
Early on, I knew LO #4 was under a lot of professional stress. She was public about it. Reading between the lines, I got the impression that there was stress in her relationship with her SO. I got the impression that the guy who should have been there for her wasn’t.
I was 2500 miles away and we’d never met so I stepped in. She didn’t ask me to, I did. I said some things that pushed boundaries. I expected her to tell me to back off since it was none of my business. But, she didn’t.
She came back with, “What do I telegraph to you.” That was the green light.
The point: If you take on the role that your therapist warned you about, you run the risk of strengthening the attachment and making getting out of the LE harder.
It seems like the decent thing to do. Helping someone is. But, this one comes with risk.
“It’s probably exhausting for her and work is an escape where someone else cares for her and she can talk about herself. She doesn’t want to take interest in me, she wants me to take interest in her.”
If only I had someone to tell me this. I was always there with a listening ear and any solicited advice that LO wanted. Her cheating POS ex was trying to wreck her life. The job, what we worked on together, was stressful and she didn’t have a whole lot of people in her life to help her being the single mother of two that she was. Cue my insatiable desire to help a woman in distress.
You know, initially I was incredibly jealous of LO’s gentleman friend when I first learned about him. Until I realized it wasn’t out of malice for him, or that he was with her in a romantic capacity. It was because LO stopped coming to me and talking to me. I didn’t have as a big of role in her day to day to life. The fear that she didn’t need me anymore was overwhelming. I was just like any other of the people that worked in the office. I held no special meaning to her anymore. But he did. He took damsel in distress for me, and I didn’t like that.
But I think you are handling this LC situation you have with LO waaaaaay better than I would have if I would have been unable to go NC with LO like I have been. Don’t beat yourself up to bad Speedwagon. I had a really bad day yesterday with intrusive thoughts. And I was at work and not at home. My wife has been so supportive in regards to intrusive thoughts and has always been my shoulder to cry on. Sometimes quite literally. It was a long day and a bad evening and I didn’t sleep much at all last night. There will be small relapses. But as I said, I think you are handling it quite well and be proud of yourself for that.
My instincts tell me that you boys are on to something important. Limerent Emeritus is right about how Speedy’s support of LO will intensify the emotional connection. It’s so irresistible, but maybe Speedwagon shouldn’t play that role for his LO. As a woman, I feel sympathy for his LO if Speedy doesn’t provide that support, but it might be the right thing to do. Oh, this is hard. Let me tell you a story…
My husband’s brother is an incredible person. His neighbor is average. The neighbor doesn’t give great guidance to his kids because he just doesn’t know how. One day a neighbor kid showed up at my brother-in-law’s home seeking “advice from a father-figure.” My brother-in-law was happy to help and proud that this kid sought him out. I don’t like it. I don’t like it at all. That kid has a father. If my brother-in-law wants to help, he could befriend the dad and help him with his skills. Now I think my brother-in-law has become a barrier between this man and his children. The wife is beautiful and remarkable which doesn’t help either. My brother-in-law and the other wife went on a road trip alone together. I trust both of their characters, but it had to be uncomfortable for the other man. It made me think that sometimes our good-intentioned help is not helpful. I would love to see my brother-in-law use his skills to encourage and lift the other man instead of stepping on his toes.
Of course, Speedy doesn’t know his LO’s SO. But I wonder if it’s best to let his LO find a more appropriate source of comfort. We don’t know whose toes Speedy steps on when he emotionally supports his LO. A friend? A sibling? A neighbor? Someone who LO SHOULD connect with emotionally?
Just a thought. I could be wrong.
Continuing on the theme.
If Speedy’s LO figures out that she can rely on him as a source of support and encouragement [LO #4 told me directly that she “valued” mine, an odd choice of words], she may actively work to maintain it. That might be conscious or not. The more he shares, the more she knows. [I could tell you a whole OT story about being assessed by someone.] The more she knows, the more leverage she has on Speedy, and the more effective she’ll be.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/emotional-affairs/#comment-1430
LOs like their dopamine hits as much as we do.
A couple of thoughts Speedwagon:
“I can see these times together with her more clearly from her perspective and not go down the rabbit hole of wondering if she has romantic interest. I know she does not”
Do you believe this 100%? And if so, do you accept it 100%? Maybe you really and truly do believe and accept this completely. If so – good for you! But I know if it was me in your situation… there would still be a part of me wondering if she really did have some romantic feelings for me that she was just denying because of the barriers. Or if she didn’t have romantic feelings, wondering if there was some scenario in the future where they might develop. Wondering if there still could be just that shred of a possibility sometime in the future of a consumated relationship. Trying to interpret things she says and does to determine if she had more feelings than she was letting on. In my experience, all it takes is just that shred of hope and possibility to keep limerence burning
“I have always had this complaint that LO seems so self absorbed and never really pursues or initiates much interest in me when we talk”
I’ve definitely been there! And we happily listen to our LOs vent and complain and talk about themselves without much reciprocal interest in us, all for the privilege of getting to spend a little time with them and feel like we’re an important part of their life. That was definitely much of my relationship with LO1 and LO3, and was like that at times with my current LO (although at the best times it was more balanced).
Question – from what you’ve observed from your LO’s interactions with other people, would you say that she’s a self-absorbed person in general? Are most of her conversations about herself and her issues, regardless of who she’s talking with? Or are most of her conversations and relationships more balanced, but the one-sided dynamic is more just a feature of her relationship with you that you’ve unwittingly enabled because of your limerent desire to just be around her and foster a sense of closeness despite the one-sidedness of it?
I don’t want to give the wrong impression that LO is discussing her life’s problems with me or using me for emotional support. She is not. In the last 2 months I have had very little conversation with her that was not mindless chit chat or work oriented. Yesterday was the first time we talked a little more about life and even then it was mainly parenting, a few social things, a few things about growing up, and a few other normal topics that any two friends might discuss. We do not talk about her husband ever. I don’t feel anywhere near being in a position of emotional support for her problems. I initiated yesterday and she is a very willing participant once I get the ball rolling but she in no way is she seeking me out for this kind of communication.
@ LIS
“Do you believe this 100%? And if so, do you accept it 100%?”.
My rational brain believes it, but emotionally no. There is something about the way LO interacts with me that feels like attraction, that feels similar to the way past girl friends interacted with me. It’s just a vibe I get from her that I don’t feel from anyone else on this planet. But my rational brain thinks that when she leaves the office each day she gives very little thought of me. If we were both single, I could believe she would be attracted, but I think romantic attraction for her is so wrapped up in circumstances and her values that I think she can successfully repress them.
“Question – from what you’ve observed from your LO’s interactions with other people, would you say that she’s a self-absorbed person in general?”
She has one really good friend at the office and when they talk I think it is more heavy on my LOs life. But hers is the more chaotic life too, so more to discuss. Beyond this friend, LO is introverted and does not make friends with other coworkers. I have not seen her take proactive interest in anyone including me. Rarely will she ever ask me how I am or how anything specific thing is going. She just seems uninterested or too clueless to ask. Her friend on the other hand is very personable and will always ask me about this or that with my day or life. In a group setting she is always very quiet, to the point of awkwardness sometimes. Before I became limerent for her I always thought it was a bit awkward to go places with her because she did not talk in car unless I initiated.
I guess I don’t know what to make of it all, she does talk a lot with me now but it is still mostly due to my initiation.
@ Adam said “The fear that she didn’t need me anymore was overwhelming … He took damsel in distress for me, and I didn’t like that.”
There’s something going round the internet at the moment about how women need to trigger the “Hero Instinct” in men to make them really interested in them. If I understand it correctly, the thesis is that men need to feel like you need them before they will commit.
And I remember there was some discussion on LwL (from mostly women) that “the desire to be desired” was a huge factor.
To risk being very reductive, could we say in heterosexual relations:
Women are driven by the need to be desired; and Men are driven by the desire to be needed?
Yes Emily!
A huge 2nd yes from me. Rescue fantasy is a huge part of my LE.
Emily,
“To risk being very reductive, could we say in heterosexual relations:
Women are driven by the need to be desired; and Men are driven by the desire to be needed?”
I’m not driven by the desire to be needed. I want to be wanted.
I’ve always believed that it’s better to be wanted than needed. If somebody wants you, it’s because of who/what you are. If they need you, it’s because of something that they lack.
What higher compliment can you pay someone than to want them?
There’s nothing cooler than being with someone who wants to be with you. Just because.
My father once told me, “Between someone who says that they want you and someone who says that they need you, always go with the one who says that they want you. If, for no other reason, than they’re less likely to resent you later.”
LO #2 never understood that I needed SOMEONE. I wanted HER.
LO #2 was singing “Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow” – Carole King (1971) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xLE8NCc7oI
I should have come back with “Never My Love” – The Association (1967) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWM8g-WgrLA
What I came back with was “Heard It In A Love Song” – Marshall Tucker Band
(1977) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duxm0VovdCU
By the time I figured that out, it was way too late and I’m not sure it would have made any difference.
I got smarter and didn’t make those mistakes with my wife. From the beginning, I made sure she felt desired.
Interesting… on one hand, rescue fantasies have definitely played a role in 3 of my 4 LEs, and I can definitely find myself in the rescuer mindset easily. On the other hand, I would agree that it feels better to be wanted than needed. I remember a key moment in the development of my relationship with my current LO. It was back in December when we were texting and talking all the time but hadn’t disclosed our feelings. She’d been telling me about a problem she was having at work, and I offered to fix it for her. She told me that she didn’t want me to get involved, that she’d just been venting. And that was big for me, because then I was like “ok, cool, she actually doesn’t want anything from me, she just wants to have a relationship with me because she likes me, not because of what I could do for her”. And that felt good, and encouraged me to open up to her even more
When I was telling my dad about the EA, I remember telling him something like “you know, it just felt really good to be wanted by someone who isn’t contractually obligated to want me”
Revision in light of comments: It seems like for women then it is the desire to be desired; but for men it could be the desire to be wanted and/or needed?
I had another thought on this. It is about safety and security.
If a woman feels she is irresistible and desired – then she is “safe” as in her mate will not leave her. I guess this works for men too, but I think men tend to be less “objectified” as object of desire so it applies more consistently to women.
If a man feels he is needed – he is “safe” – women evolutionarily seek protection for themselves and their off spring from male protectors. If a man fulfils that, then there is no reason for the woman to leave them.
But … desire OR need … those are actually quite INVOLUNTARY responses. I hear LE saying he wants a person to choose … and I think that is a pattern for a true HEALTHY relationship. But I can’t help feeling that in the case of limerence, because of the focus on the pair bond, it taps into our more fundamental need for safety. That is why we are not just somewhat disappointed when it doesn’t work out; we are FRANTIC.
Often when we make a decision to marry someone, it is for a whole host of reasons – intellectual as well as visceral. It “makes sense”; it is, as pointed out, a decision to enter a “contractual obligation”. We choose or are chosen – this is not to be taken lightly! It is a huge honor and compliment. But it does mean that if our partner chose us … they can choose differently (and they can). But if the pair bond is triggered – they basically cannot choose. They basically are limerent. And we ALL know how close to impossible it is to cut out someone we are limerent for. This is the ultimate safety for any of us.
Thoughts?
Emily,
“But I can’t help feeling that in the case of limerence, because of the focus on the pair bond, it taps into our more fundamental need for safety. That is why we are not just somewhat disappointed when it doesn’t work out; we are FRANTIC.”
For me,
The pair bond, probably “Yes.” The need for safety, probably “No.”
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-allure-of-bad-boys-and-girls/#comment-1682
For me, with LOs #2-#4, it was all about linking them to my mother.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-los-return-part-two/#comment-2074
Shari Schreiber says, “The subconscious theme that underlies this predestined pairing process is: “If you NEED me, you’ll never leave me.” – https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/ Schreiber is speaking to co-dependents. IMO, there’s an overlap between co-dependency and limerence. But, hey, what do I know except that it makes sense to me.
You start going there and you’re in the the middle of one pretty dense forest.
Yes, a lot of what Shari Schreiber says makes sense. So much to untangle. Thanks for sharing that!
Hi Speedwagon. How are you feeling today?
“This has been causing me to feel some level of grief over loss of relationship with LO.”
Sorry you have to go through this “punishment “ every day of the week. There’s a quote that says: “ I don’t know what’s killing me more, talking to you or not talking to you”, what a dilemma!!! Must be excruciating! Another quote: “Because nothing makes me happier and nothing makes me sadder than you.” It’s really balancing on a seesaw all the time and it is very tiring. Get yourself some good books to read and poetry, invest some time on helping other people less fortunate than you, like in a church or local community. Sometimes, seeing, sharing and helping other people with their problems help us forget about ourselves . That helps me a lot. May God give you the grace and peace of mind and wisdom to cope with this all.
Hi Rosin…thanks for asking and caring for my situation. The quotes sum things up nicely. This week is better but I had some interaction in a group chat this weekend with LO and we have had more personal conversation the last few days. Whenever that happens it tends to feed my relational desires with her. But if the consistency of communication drops I will hit a low. It’s how the dance with her seems to go and I kind of take things week by week.
I have plenty else in life to throw my attention to, I’m not hurting for other activities. But unfortunately everything is grey with the haze of this LE.
I think that you are spot on Miss Lovisa. At least in my case. In hindsight and talking to my wife about my limerence, I started to realize that my motives for helping LO however I could were not altruistic. She was feeding a need, by being in distress, for me. My desire to help my wife however I can, is a sense of duty and love. I don’t get a selfish need filled when I am there for her as oppose to LO.
That realization, admitting that to myself, was really painful. That introspection that I had a selfish motive for being there for LO. That damn limerence again. I would think my rational brain, if in control, would have told me to back down. Even if LO came to me for an ear or advice. But such was not the case and the limerence fed my rescue complex and convinced me that I had nothing but good will in helping LO with what see asked for.
And then of course there is the aspect that I spent so much of my time and attention on LO that I could have been neglecting my wife’s needs. Which I am sure I did in some capacity. But she KNEW I was there for her. So I didn’t need to reaffirm that I was there for her, like I did LO. The whole thing is a damn mess to be honest Miss Lovisa. I’ve had less behavior I am ashamed of when drunk on alcohol than I have drunk on limerence.
Here’s a post for all the runners (and running-curious folks). I ran my half marathon this weekend, and had a few observations
1) I woke up that morning thinking about LO, and was ruminating about her on the way to the race. But once I started running and got into the zone, I found that I wasn’t thinking about her anymore. My thoughts started drifting lightly from topic to topic – some work things, some family things, the NBA playoffs, some song lyrics, etc – but I wasn’t ruminating about LO!
Lesson – a good runner’s high is a great replacement for limerent thoughts, at least temporarily, and should be pursued as often as possible
2) For much of the race, I ended up in between packs of runners – I couldn’t see or hear the group in front of me nor the group behind me. I was just running my own race at my own pace, and it felt good! I was totally content running by myself on some beautiful trails through some beautiful woods on a beautiful sunny day, and didn’t need anyone else to make me happy.
Lesson – sometimes it’s really nice to not be chasing anyone nor being chased by anyone, but just to be content running my own race.
3) Around mile 10, I completely hit the wall. My training had been suboptimal (I’d actually miscalculated how many weeks I had to train, so I didn’t build up to the distance like I should have), and with 3 miles left my leg muscles ran out of glycogen and suddenly felt like they weighed 100lbs each. I really wanted to stop running and just walk it in. No one else would have cared. But I checked in with myself – “are you actually unable to keep going? Or do you just want to quit but you can actually keep going?”. And of course the answer was that I could actually keep going but just didn’t want to, so I did – kept the legs moving one step at a time and got to the finish line without walking. And I ended up winning my age group and finishing 30 seconds off a top 10 finish overall, so I would have been really mad at myself if I’d given up and walked.
Lesson – I can do hard things even when I really don’t want to, and can maintain my discipline all the way to the finish line
4) After the race, I had a couple of great conversations with other runners that I randomly met after the race, including a nice chat with a middle aged dad like me who had just completed his first half marathon, and then I spent 1/2 hour talking with a semi-famous professional runner from another country who was using this race as a tune-up for her serious racing season, which was a really fun and interesting chat.
Lesson – There are a lot of really nice and interesting people in the world! One of the major downsides to any addiction is that they narrow your focus to the one thing that you’re addicted to, and cause you to miss out on so much of the rich diversity of experiences that the world has to offer. I know that in the past 6 months, I’ve been so focused on LO that I’ve missed out on a lot of great experiences involving other people.
Bonus story – Ok, so I did think of LO once during the race. For the first mile or so, I was running about 50m behind a female runner, and found myself admiring both her running form and her shape, and I thought to myself “see, LO isn’t your one true soul-mate. She doesn’t even run!” And then my next thought was “Oh, but if we were together, I’m sure she’d love to go running with me and she’d get really into it”. Followed quickly by “LiS, you’re a f’ing dumba$$” with a laugh and a shake of the head and back into the zone 🙂
I love running! Thanks for sharing your experience, Lost in Space. Those are great lessons. Congratulations on your win. I took first in my division a few weeks ago, too. I am getting ready for a training run and just opened up LwL to see how everyone is doing before I head out. I’m training for a 50-miler in the fall and hoping to slowly increase to 60-mile weeks with 6,000 feet of elevation gain. I am foolish enough to jump into that, but I’m so tired of overuse injuries that I am using the 10% rule to work up to it. It takes a lot of self control.
Hey everyone else, I invite you to give running a try. Just sign up for a 5k and work towards it. Running is the best mood regulator that I’ve found.
Btw, that wall you hit sounds like electrolyte deficiency. Did you use electrolytes and nutrition on your run? It’s so cool that you pushed through that feeling! When I hit the wall, I “zombie walk” the rest of the way. It’s hard on the ego, but at that point, I kind of don’t care. My motivation usually dies when my body says, “no more.”
“To risk being very reductive, could we say in heterosexual relations:
Women are driven by the need to be desired; and Men are driven by the desire to be needed?”
While I get what L.E. is saying about want over need. The issue for me becomes when someone needs for you something and is appreciative and when someone is dependent on you.
LO didn’t really “need” me. She is a intelligent, strong willed and independent woman and probably could have held the task the company put at her by herself. But she asked for and appreciated my help whenever I would give it. That gave me purpose and direction. There’s nothing worse than feeling useless and she easily could have been that way with me. But she made us a team and relied on me for a number of tasks she knew I was more suited for even if she could have accomplished them herself. That’s a helluva compliment to me. And she readily did it.
Dependence on the other hand can easily become a burden. A burden that can make you question why this person is dependent on you and how long you can hold out as your energy, time, and ambition get slowly drained, until you are nothing but a husk. That kind of dependence is not the same to me as feeling needed by someone.
So to answer your question, for me personally, yes feeling needed in the context I mentioned gives me purpose, drive and pride in what I do. And when those “needs” come from a woman followed up with appreciation, yeah that sends me right down the rabbit hole.
Anyone else here watch WWE wrestling during the late 90s/early 2000s when The Rock was huge? If so, you probably remember one of his most popular gimmicks was to cut his opponent off mid-sentence with “It doesn’t matter…”. Here’s a little refresher:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eyig8sSwygk
Anyway, for the past few days I’ve been playing this little game in my head where every time I start thinking about LO, I have my inner Rock cut off my thoughts. For example:
Me: I just miss LO so b…
The Rock: It doesn’t matter if you miss her, you’re married!
Me: I just wish I knew what she thinks about me n..
The Rock: It doesn’t matter what she thinks about you now, you’re married!
Me: What if she’s sad and needs me to make her feel bet…
The Rock: It doesn’t matter if she’s sad, you’re married!
Try it, it’s fun!
I’ve gone almost 2 weeks now without any contact with LO. This morning I came back to my desk to find some paperwork from her that I needed to complete and send back to her, and she’d drawn a little smiley face on it. Like any good limerent, I spent the rest of the morning wondering why she drew the smiley face – surely it must be meaningful, right? Surely it must mean that she misses me and wants me to break our agreement and come see her, right? And I spent the rest of the morning debating between dropping the paperwork back into infra-office mail vs walking it over to her personally so I could see her.
And I was feeling good and strong and confident today. I was looking good – had a fresh haircut, been working out a lot, wearing my best shirt. I could imagine myself leaning up against her desk talking with her, giving her my best smiles, lots of eye contact, making little jokes to make her laugh… it would feel so good, and of course she’d find me irresistible and tell me how much she missed us and then she’d want to start seeing me again…
And finally I dropped the paperwork into the intra-office mail box. My only concession was that I wrote “here you go” with a little smiley face of my own. But that was it, and I didn’t see her or talk to her the rest of the day, and I actually had a pretty good day and drank way too much coffee and enjoyed the company of a lot of other people I enjoy talking with.
As tempted as I was to use returning the paperwork as a pretext to go see her, I knew that 1) whatever time I did get to spend with her would never be enough and would only leave me wanting more. 2) I’d spend the rest of the day filled with all kinds of unpleasant emotions like aching and longing and anxiety and sorrow. 3) it would be unfair to her to trigger whatever emotions a visit from me might trigger, just to try to make myself feel good. 4) it would be disrespectful to my SO, and I’m trying to work more on maintaining focus on being a faithful husband
I think that’s progress!
Well done!
The Rock: It doesn’t matter why she wrote the smiley face, you’re married!
😉
Yes!! This comment made my night 😀
Hello everyone,
I’m obsessed with my co-worker who is around 13 years older than me. It all started when he started to flirt with me after working with him for a couple of years; at that time I was not interested and didn’t find him all that attractive. Then suddenly he stopped being as attentive and it was like a switch happened in my brain. I slowly became very obsessed. He must have noticed my (new) attraction signals because he ramped up the flirting (i.e. increased eye contact, flirting, being in my office all the time, brushing against me, smiling and glancing at me when I wasn’t looking). I was on a high.
Then, for some reason (could be a number of things like I out of office for around two weeks), the flirting stopped and he treated me more like any other work colleague. But still from time to time we have this intense eye contact. Whenever we have this eye contact, he will look intently at me until I look away in embarrassment – sometimes with a smile in his eyes. Sometimes he comes into the office and talks more to other people rather than me and I feel very flat and deflated. He is going through a very difficult time health-wise and he avoided our office for a while, he told my colleague it was due to his mental health around his difficulties. We are both married.
So there is my story. Needless to say, I get very high from the eye contact and very low from the casual contact where he talks to my colleagues more than me.
When I didn’t see him for 3 or 4 weeks, I was getting over my limerence and feeling more indifferent towards him. It was actually a relief because although I wasn’t getting the highs, I wasn’t getting the crippling depressing lows either. He goes away shortly for a long period of time and I am hoping to be cured of this affliction.
Oh boy, Dandilion, that is rough.
I didn’t notice symptoms of intrusive thoughts in your description and that is good news. Here is a tip to avoid intrusive thoughts, think about something else when you find yourself thinking about him. Try really hard not to daydream about your LO. Intrusive thoughts are the worst!
If I understood your comment correctly, it sounds like you are experiencing uncertainty due to his hot and cold behavior. Unfortunately, uncertainty is common. Here is an article that might help you make sense of it.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/uncertainty/
I see that both of you are married. In my opinion, you don’t need to beat yourself up about your feelings for this other man, but your actions do matter. I recommend that you read the most recent article about how to avoid temptation to prepare yourself just in case something escalates.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-how-to-resist-temptation/
Welcome to our club, Dandilion! Best wishes!
Thanks for the welcome Lovisa! Unfortunately, there are intrusive thoughts – constant analysis of our interactions- swinging from “he likes me I know he does WOW!” to “he doesn’t like me blah…”
I was doing so well. He avoided the office when I was in for what seemed like ages and it really worked to diminish the intensity of the feelings and thoughts. It was only because I saw him again and noticed (or maybe thought I did) something in his eyes.
He’s going off work soon for a long period – I’m dreading it and also looking forward to the break in equal measure.
Hi Dandilion, I feel like intrusive thoughts and rumination are not the same thing. I would call what you described a “rumination.” Ruminating isn’t pleasant either. For me, the intrusive thoughts would just pop up at random and if I felt uncertainty, I would be miserable. It was physically painful. My stomach would hurt and my body would tense up. I couldn’t escape those intrusive thoughts either. I got so desperate for relief that I intentionally transferred my limerence to another man. With my current LE, I try not to daydream about my LO because that is what caused the intrusive thoughts last time. I think there’s an article about it. Let me see… by the way, I am addressing this with you because I am trying to warn you not to daydream about your LO so that you don’t experience intrusive thoughts. I would agree that rumination is a type of intrusive thought, but it seems a little voluntary. Seriously, thoughts of my LO were plaguing me during my last LE and I don’t want that for you if at all possible. Sorry if this is coming across as bossy or nagging.
Here it is…
https://livingwithlimerence.com/rumination-and-intrusive-thoughts/
Also, I love this YouTube video about intrusive thoughts. It helped me make sense of what was happening in my head.
How to Deal with Intrusive Thoughts
by Mark Freeman
https://youtu.be/laeYq51SYA0
Hang in there. That break will be so good for you! You are lucky that you know he will be gone for a while. You might be able to process your LE adequately to get him out of your head before he gets back. Hopefully, you’ll be unaffected by his behavior when he returns. Let’s aim for that goal. (Lol, your life is none of my business, but here I am making goals for you. Oh my goodness, settle down, Lovisa.)
Also, many of us limerents use our LEs to evaluate what was missing that made us vulnerable to limerence. I’d like you to start thinking about that (man, I’m getting bossy). And if you can, do you want to take this opportunity to lean into your marriage and strengthen your family? A lot of us do that, too. I know it sounds weird, but it works.
I’m so glad you’re here! I’ll try to scale back on the bossiness. I feel like I’m talking to myself 2 years ago and trying to warn myself before I get to the difficult stages of limerence. I hope that makes sense.
Strong eye contact and catching LO looking at me is probably the biggest thing that hooked me to her and it still has me hooked. Eye contact can be so powerful but I never quite know what to make of it. No one else looks at me or locks eyes with me like LO does. However, she does very little beyond the eye contact and warm face to face interactions to show any interest in me, so maybe she is just an eye contacty kind of person.
I disclosed to my LO a while back and she claimed only feelings of friendship. Whether true or not I don’t know, we are both married and nothing will happen and I’m trying to get past the LE.
See, this is what I don’t understand: if I got the vibe a man was attracted to me and I wasn’t attracted to him, there’d be no way in hell that I’d engage in strong eye contact- I literally could only do that if I was really attracted. In fact, before I became obsessed with my LO, I never really looked into his eyes. Maybe your LO just really gets off on your attention to her?
Dandilion
That seems difficult to read. I am fortunate that LO was always straight up with me, friendly, when I worked with her, but never sending mixed signals. Other than how my limerence was reading it. But in hindsight I can see that she was consistent and friendly as no more than a co-worker.
I know how the intrusive thoughts are. It will be a year on June 3rd since LO left the job for another. I was watching a movie over the weekend and suddenly I am thinking of LO. I had a bad thought that something happened to her or could happen to her. I ran through the house and found my wife in the kitchen cooking and she redirected my thoughts to something else. She herself has intrusive thoughts but from other trauma not limerence.
I am hoping for you that it doesn’t last as long for you as it has for me. A break in contact can be hard at first. But I will admit that it has gotten easier than at first outside of the intrusive thoughts. I talked to LO once about 3 months after she left for her new job. She made the contact, not me. I was elated for weeks, if not months, on just one conversation with her. Quite literally person addiction. Since then I have not had any contact with her and it is getting better. I still resist to look her up online and so far have been successful. I am hoping for the best for you too. It’s a hard road to travel.
It makes it difficult with even everyday tasks when the intrusive thoughts hit. Some days are better than others.
That sounds really tough, Adam. I think my ego would crumble to the ground if my LO admitted he only liked me as a friend. I also think and truly believe that this break will cure me of this affliction. I’m very fickle and can easily get bored of thinking of something or someone if there are no new stimulus to ruminate on. I just need to sit tight and be away from him as much as I can in the meantime. Luckily, I think he is of the same mind as he definitely doesn’t swing by the office when I’m in hardly ever any more.
Thanks Louisa, don’t worry you’re not coming across as bossy at all, I’m grateful for any advice I can get!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B4wtNGR4Nnk
Josh Ritter – The Temptation of Adam
I just got home from seeing Josh Ritter in concert tonight and this was one of the songs he played. It’s a brilliant story about limerence for a co-worker so I had to post it here.
The narrator in this song is just like a lot of us – he falls madly in love with a coworker, and he when finds out she’ll be leaving the workplace soon, he’s tempted to blow up everything in order to keep being with her. But there’s a twist!!
…Spoiler alert…
In this story, the narrator and his LO work together in an underground nuclear missile silo. When he finds out she’s going to leaving soon, he starts thinking about pushing the button and starting WWIII, just so that he and his LO will be trapped underground together forever.
And I bet a lot of us limerents are nodding along, like “yeah, I mean, he probably shouldn’t do it, but totally I understand where he’s coming from!” 🤣
Great song! Thanks for sharing.
My situation took another turn this week – I feel happy about it but I’m not sure I should… Anyway, last month I was writing about how my LO asked for NC and started acting really cold toward me when we did see each other around work. It felt horrible and I was grieving hard, yet at the same time, the seeming conclusiveness of her ending things gave me some clarity and hope that this LE would eventually be behind me.
Last week, LO initiated contact with me again, with a friendly text saying hi and asking how me and my kids had been. We ended up texting a bit for a couple days and then had a nice friendly chat on the phone on Friday on her drive home – nothing too deep or remotely inappropriate, but it just felt good to be talking with her again. Then right at the end of that chat, before she had to get off the phone, she told me she had something exciting to tell me next time we talked.
Today I was off work (on my little weekend getaway to Utah supposedly to help myself get over her) so I didn’t expect to here from her until later in the week, but by this afternoon she was texting me and then we talked on the phone for an hour – she was super excited to tell me all about her experiences with a new form of therapy this past couple months that had really snapped her out of her depression and made her feel so much better. And of course I was really happy to hear that (because I’ve been so worried about her happiness), and we had a really warm conversation for an hour or so and left it with vague plans to talk again soon.
After our talk, I texted her just to kind of clarify how she was feeling about me and our relationship, because she hadn’t really said anything that addressed her sudden change toward me. She texted back with something that made me feel really good – she said that I’m a positive person in her life who makes her feel happy, that I’ve been nothing but nice and kind to her, that it’s always nice talking with me, that we do have to have boundaries but that she’s just thankful she met me.
So that all felt great to hear of course, especially after the agony I was feeling last month at the thought of never talking to her again, but now I’m back to imagining a long term relationship with her that involves warm friendship with boundaries. Is this best for me? I don’t know. Is it possible for me to manage expectations and hold to our boundaries? I don’t know. I guess we’ll just cautiously see how it goes and adjust as needed.
Whoa, Lost in Space. This is interesting. Earlier today I started a comment to ask you how you feel about your situation now that you’ve had a long break from LO. I wanted to know if you felt differently about your EA. Remember how you had hoped to continue an EA indefinitely? I wondered if you had changed your mind. I wondered if you saw benefits to NC. It’s crazy that you kind of answered the question that I didn’t finish asking. I had it half-way typed out when my SO wanted my attention and I put it aside thinking I would ask later. This is so interesting. But…
Let’s address the most pressing issue: if you are still in Utah, get off the website and hit those trails! Go! Now! Utah is beautiful! We can talk later.
When you’re tired from all that trail running, let’s consider something…
Let’s assume that you can be her friend. Would you want that? I understand that you feel great right now, but this high comes with a cost. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Utah was great! Absolutely beautiful. Although coming from close to sea level, I definitely felt the elevation and was huffing and puffing on the trails!
Anyway, I was back at work today, and the great thaw continued. The day started with LO bringing me a snack, which was sweet in and of itself, but more significantly she brought me this particular food item that we’d discussed once like 5 months ago and she remembered now that I’d never tried it so she brought it for me today – the fact that she remembered this little detail from a random conversation in January seemed meaningful. Like, it made all my fears from last month that she’d forgotten all about me seem silly.
And then I texted her later to thank her for the snack, and then we basically spent the rest of the afternoon texting back and forth, just bantering and making each other laugh, all free and easy like it used to be.
Lovisa, I think you read the situation exactly right last month when you told me that she cares about me and wants to maintain a relationship, but she cares even more about being appropriate. And so when I spent the last month basically just respecting her boundaries and leaving her alone, she felt safe being warm and friendly with me again. I actually told her yesterday that my goal is to be appropriate and respect boundaries so that she feels safe talking with me, and she liked that.
So now the million dollar question is, do I actually want to maintain a warm and friendly relationship with her? And can I do that for very long without feeling compelled to push things further?
I think I will be fine with respecting boundaries and not pushing things – the reason being that she showed me pretty clearly that pushing boundaries leads to coldness and no contact, while respecting boundaries leads to warmth and friendship. I feel pretty certain that if I start pushing boundaries again and sending flirty texts or links to romantic songs or telling her I love her or whatever, then she’ll cut everything off again pretty quickly and probably not give me another chance. That’s what I’m telling myself anyways.
Whether being friends with her is a good thing or not… that’s tough. I really have no idea. My conscious doesn’t feel great about texting with her all day today… I wonder, even if on the surface everything is completely appropriate, is it still an emotional affair because of the feelings underlying everything? And I gotta admit, when we talked on the phone yesterday, she did disclose some private stuff about her relationship struggles with her SO that I’m sure she shouldn’t have shared with me – so that was kind of emotional affair-ish.
I honestly don’t know what effect it’s going to have on my mental health to be back in a relationship with her. I’ll say that during our NC month, I was starting to feel calmer, especially as the grief started to fade. I did feel some anxiety a couple of times today when it took her longer than usual to text back, so that’s not a good sign. And I did feel some of that ache about wanting more than we can have – it’s like all we get to do is talk to each other about our own separate lives, but we can’t actually experience any shared life together. We’ve never spent a single second together outside of our workplace, and likely never will, and that makes me feel sad. And honestly, I’m pretty sure that no matter what level of relationship we had, it would never actually feel like enough until we were sitting on a couch in our shared home cuddling with our baby – this pair bonding drive is so real!
But my rational mind is firmly aware that anything more than a friendship at work is 100% in the realm of fantasy, and I feel confident that she feels the same way, so the big question is whether it’s better to indulge in a friendly relationship with her and always deal with some underlying anxiety and ache, or is it better to just stay away from each other? I really don’t know right now.
On the flip side, she’s still completely committed to leaving our workplace and starting a new job by September at the latest, possibly sooner. I think that kinda makes me feel like just indulging in a friendly relationship for now, knowing that at most it’ll only last a few more months. Probably the ideal outcome in my mind would be to enjoy each others’ friendly company for the next few months, part ways on good terms, and then once she leaves we’ll probably keep in touch but less and less as time passes and she gets busy with her new life, and it’ll eventually just die out and maybe we’ll end up the kind of friends who chat twice a year just to catch up.
This song came on my pandora station just as I was finishing my comment:
Santana – Sideways
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yQVLYZskOuI
These feelings won’t go away
They’ve been knockin’ me sideways
They’ve been knockin’ me out lately
Whenever you come around me
These feelings won’t go away
They’ve been knockin’ me sideways
I keep thinking in a moment that
Time will take them away
But these feelings won’t go away
Oh Lost In Space.
When I read this, I feel both your elation (which I totally understand) and this sinking feeling that this has just prolonged things. And come September there will be pieces to pick up. And I feel sadness too, when I read that bit about cuddling your baby. It is the impossibility of the matter that is so heartbreaking.
Only you can decide how far to take this, what to do. Whatever it is, try to hurt as few people as possible. Have compassion for yourself and acknowledge what a monumental struggle this is, but also remember you have agency and are responsible for your actions. You are going into this with your eyes wide open this time – the mental and emotional toll it will take, the deception involved (ask not of definitions of EA but imagine your SO reading the latest exchange of txts – if she will mind, it’s a problem regardless of whatever definition). I think we all, being SOs ourselves, know the answer.
And the fact she txted you in Utah – what’s with these LOs? It’s like the have a sixth sense about us taking the next step in detaching from them and they know what to do to stop us from progressing.
Wow, thanks for the update, Lost in Space. I understand the difficulty of running at 5,000 feet when you’re used to running at sea level. It sure does change how it feels to breath. If you had a favorite trail, I’d love to hear about it.
Your relationship with LO sounds a lot like my relationships with my LOs. She is trying to keep you in her life without crossing boundaries. I sensed that attention from her has quite an effect on you and it makes sense. You described it well when you said that you’ll never be satisfied until the two of you are snuggling your own baby on your own couch together. I guess that compulsion isn’t going away any time soon. Are the benefits of this relationship worth the anxious longing? I guess we will find out as time goes on. Please continue to share your experience with us. Hopefully, we can keep you grounded and we can learn from you.
Lost in Space, I have a feeling that you and I are in a similar situation. It is helpful for me to hear your perspective because it gives me an idea of what my LOs experience. When you mentioned that she brought you a snack, I thought, “Oh boy, she’s trying to be nice, but that gesture is going to have quite an effect on him.” My best guess about why she’s back is that you made it safe for her to come back and she recognizes that her emotional intimacy needs are met through contact with you. But I have no doubt that she doesn’t want to hurt anyone and she will pull away if you two get too close, that is assuming she has the strength to pull away in the moment. Be careful. Be strong. Protect everyone by not letting this escalate. Speedwagon was right when he said that you have to watch your words and frequency of contact. I don’t feel good about saying, “I love you” to your LO. If you feel compelled to do it, maybe say something like, “I love that you brought me a snack.”
Proceed with caution. Don’t let your heart turn away from your SO. Keep her in the #1 position. She is your Star player so treat her as the star.
Good luck!
Lovisa – I agree that our situations are similar (with the big difference that you’ve disclosed to your SO and I haven’t, so you’re living with more integrity than me right now) and I also find your perspective to be incredibly helpful for me when I’m trying to understand what’s going on in my LO’s mind. I really took your advice to heart about staying appropriate and respecting boundaries in order to let her feel safe around me, and I think that’s the main reason why she and I are all warm and friendly again.
“I don’t feel good about saying, “I love you” to your LO.”
Funny you wrote this, because my psychologist told me exactly the same thing today. It’s just too heavy a word, with too many implications. I’ve said that word to LO a handful of times, and I think it’s made her feel really uncomfortable. Like, I think at some level it felt good for her to hear me say it, but I think it also unsettled her – it’s too meaningful of a word, it seems too disrespectful to my SO to be using that word with another woman, and perhaps it carries a hint of promises that I can’t deliver. These days, I’m trying to be more careful about the words I use, as part of my effort to keep her feeling safe. I did tell her the other day that she’s just one of my favorite people in this world and I always want to be her friend – do you think that was ok or was that a bit overboard as well?
Today was an interesting day because I got a call from the manager at a job she’s applying to, because she listed me as a reference. So I was in the position of saying glowing things about what a great coworker she is (which I truly believe), knowing that my words might pave the way for her to leave really soon. It felt good to be able to do something helpful for her, and also made me really sad to think about her possibly giving her 2 weeks notice really soon.
After that call, I texted her to tell her about it and that the manager spoke highly of her and said she planned to offer her a job. LO seemed more sad than happy about the news. She wanted to talk because she wanted my opinion about this job and a few other options, so we ended up chatting on the phone for an hour or so. I tried to be as objective and neutral as possible as she talked about different possibilities (including maybe staying at our workplace longer term after all). She also expressed some frustration and discord with her SO, which I’m trying to stay out of. I just tried to be a sounding board for her and ask some questions to help her clarify her decisions, without inserting too
much of my own feelings into it or trying to sway her towards declining the other job and staying. It was hard.
I also happened to be at home while we were talking, and my SO came home while I was on the phone with LO. I’m usually really careful about keeping them completely separate, but I got complacent today. After the call ended, SO asked who I’d been talking to, and I told her I was talking to my coworker _____ who wanted my advice on a job offer. SO didn’t react at all to hearing that name, so I think I’ve done a good job at not leaking my feelings. I also felt kind of sociopathic sitting there telling SO about my conversation with LO in a totally neutral tone, like I was just talking about any old coworker. I’ve always been really good at compartmentalizing, and it actually kind of scares me how easily I seem to be able to hide all this from SO – it makes me wonder how much deception I’d actually be capable of (not that I intend to find out).
And then I made a nice dinner for SO and we spent the evening cuddled up on the couch watching tv together and had some nice conversations, and everything feels really good between us, as it has for several months now. I don’t think this LE would have started in the first place if my marriage had been feeling this good back in November. Back then, I really felt a need to be desired and a need for connection that LO filled for me. Now I don’t feel like any of that is missing from my relationship with SO, so I really don’t need anything from LO anymore, but now I’ve just become so bonded to her as a person that I still just don’t feel any desire to try to cut her out of my life.
“I did tell her the other day that she’s just one of my favorite people in this world and I always want to be her friend – do you think that was ok or was that a bit overboard as well?”
I think that’s a good way to express how you feel. If my LO said something like that to me, I would feel reassured. I would like it.
Good job not getting too involved when she talked about her struggles with her SO. Negative talk about SO’s is a common step towards infidelity. Unless she is being abused, you are right to avoid the subject.
“I also felt kind of sociopathic sitting there telling SO about my conversation with LO in a totally neutral tone…”
This worries me, but it is a sensitive subject that hits close to home. My son was diagnosed as having Antisocial Personality Disorder, which is the current term used for a psychopath or sociopath. He is a difficult person to be around. Raising him was a living hell. To be fair to him, he had a very rough first 6 years of life before we met him and his lack of attachment makes sense even though it is awful. I don’t want you to do anything that could diminish your empathy. I don’t have a solution for you, but I would like you to at least have awareness when moments like this happen. If you are a praying person, I would like you to take this to the big guy and pray about it.
It makes sense that your LE happened when your marriage was in a low point. And I understand why it’s hard to let go of LO even though things are better at home. I really can’t say what you should do from here, but I will say this. First, don’t have sexual relations with your LO. Now that we’ve addressed the big issue, which I don’t think you would cross that boundary anyway, but I want to be clear about it. Second, I think our SO’s don’t want to lose anything as a result of our outside relationships. For example, if your wife feels like you pull away from her because you talk to a woman at work, she won’t like that. But if you talk to a woman at work who inspires you to be a better husband and father AND there is no risk of you escalating that relationship to affair-level, your wife won’t mind if you have that connection. That’s how I feel anyway.
You might be leaking more than you think. Your wife doesn’t know what is going on, but something might feel odd to her and she doesn’t know how to address it. I believed I wasn’t leaking symptoms, but when my SO pointed it out, it became obvious to me.
Your situation is so interesting. I hope it goes well for everyone’s sake.
I echo Lovisa, can you be her friend and feel peace with it and not want to keep escalating the relationship? Maybe so but boundaries have to also be in the words you say to each other and frequency of contact I think. The positive is that you seem to have really good open and honest communication with her so I’m sure you guys can work it out.
Right now, this is the kind of thing I wish I had with my LO. I have never felt more disconnected from LO as I do now so friendship and being wanted sounds pretty nice. Been pretty low lately.
I’m sorry you feel low, Speedwagon. How are things at home?
That’s the thing, Lovisa. Home life is great. SO and I are great. Work is steady. My kids are great. I have plenty of activity in my life. But I just can’t seem to shake LO and as I withdraw from her we are growing apart because she is not a pursuer of me at all. If I pursue she will engage, but she will never initiate. So I have been withdrawing and it just causes a lot of grief to see her let it happen. She just seems so indifferent, and it’s hard to know your LO feels indifference towards you.
But my executive brain knows withdrawing is the right thing to do to break to cycle of pursuing her and always feeling let down because of her lack of initiation.
And BTW…I pretty much fully regret disclosing at this point.
You are right that indifference hurts. I’m sorry you’re going through withdrawal, but I think it’s the best thing for you.
Interesting that you regret disclosing. I feel like it’s best to keep feelings of attraction private when we are in a committed relationship, too. But, to be fair, your disclosure was kind of an accident. Don’t be too hard on yourself.
I don’t know if it helps, but I’m not indifferent towards you, your SO isn’t and neither are your other female friends. Your LO has youth, but she doesn’t have the depth of personality that the rest of us ladies have.
Thank-you Lovisa, those are kind words.
Hi Speedwagon, I just want to say the post-limerence blahs are the worst and I feel you in this – and how vexing it is that life is going f so I well but there is this emptiness where our LEs and LOs used to fill. It would seem to me a useful thing to do is identify what that void is. It is obviously not your relationship with your SO which you say is going great, or career, or family. But there must be something that is missing.
I am going to tell you something rather personal. You are saying that your LO is “just letting it happen” when you are withdrawing and that hurts. Well, my SO just lets that happen. I am in a position where my irl relationship seems to mean so little to my SO that he would let me go without a peep. That hurts. I actually don’t matter to the person who I an supposed to matter to. Such a situation make anyone vulnerable to being pursued by another, or being open to flattery or attraction, even if the source of it is an unreliable rake who offers scraps. And I am supposed to be loyal to this person who doesn’t really care? Well, I HAVE been loyal, and he still doesn’t care enough to fight for me, for our relationship, even though I have made it clear we have to do something.
I am grieving over my SO. I am still trying to extinguish the limerence for LO. Things do seem pretty bleak. The only thing I can take out of this is that I am faithful and loyal but that is cold comfort. What now? What next?
Emily, that would be hard for anyone. I’m so sorry.
Emily, I got it! How do you feel about Marriage Helper? They talk about a lot of principles that can strengthen relationships. They talk about something called PIES. The first time I heard someone say, “I’m working on my PIES.” I was like, “You’re doing what? That’s weird. I can’t even take you seriously when you talk like that.” But I’ve learned more about it and now my reaction is, “Yay! Let’s all work on our PIES!” I wonder if you and your SO would benefit from learning about “The Love Path.” Here is a summary of how I understand it…
Love Path
1. Attraction (think PIES- Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, Spiritual)
2. Acceptance (Do you accept me?)
3. Attachment (Will you be there for me when I need you?)
4. Aspiration (Common long-term goals)
Maybe you and SO could work towards a goal together. My SO and I are reading an Agatha Christy novel right now. It’s something different… it’s novel, hahaha. You guys could try something new.
Thank you so much for the recommendation Lovisa.
I think the part that we cannot overcome is the Acceptance piece. My SO is very principled (something I like a lot about him, except it has caused me much grief) but he leads his life and runs our family like a tight ship (think Captain von Trapp). Maria manages to get him to bend – but my SO will not bend, not for me, not for our children, not for anyone. Okay, to be fair, I think he did when we first met 2 decades ago, but he was crazily in love at that point. I think over time, his natural inclinations and preferences have reasserted themselves. Now, I have to live very much with his disapproval. It makes me feel terribly awful and unworthy, even though everyone else around me tells me how great I am. What is the point of that if your SO is the one person who cannot accept the gifts you bring to this world? He won’t eat the food I make for him, when I try to bring up anything emotional he blocks me, and I have to initiate sex! And he cannot bring himself to be happy for me if I happen to do something that is against his principles, he just gives me that look, which I know is full of disapproval. I know this site is about living with limerence, so I never really brought up my marriage issues, but I think it is the other face of the limerence coin for me. All those things I was missing, I projected onto my LO. The fit isn’t perfect, but he at least delights and approves of the things I do, seeks me out, loves the food I cook, lol. It seems so basic, but the fact that I can make an elaborate meal and my SO looks at it like it’s sh*t because it has too much sugar, or fat, or calories, or whatever – I just live in fear of rejection from him. And it can come out of anywhere, over anything, and it blindsides me, and extinguishes joy and replaces it with pain and shame. It just hurts so bad. And the very worst part is that recently he BLAMED me for begging him not to leave the marriage a few years ago, as though I had forced him to stay with me, when I was trying to keep the marriage going. Was he not, then, trying to fight for us too? Did he just agree to stay married because of pity, apathy, or what? It wasn’t because he WANTED to stay or he wanted me. That just … something in me broke that day. How shall I say it? I will just say it. My husband is no longer in love with me. And I am no longer in love with him.
And now I have this limerence thing I am trying to overcome, and … I am doing this for myself, not for SO anymore. I begin to understand where my “desire to be desired” comes from. It is from being UNdesired by my husband. I know that whether or not limerence would be a betrayal to SO, it is not a healthy or wholesome thing. In my case at least, it is tainted by my marriage problems. It is born from the muck and ugliness, no matter how glimmery and exciting it may seem. It is a visible symptom of a very big disease that is dominating my life.
To be honest, I have been trying to see LO as a Player to make things easier for myself to let him go, but to be perfectly honest, he was totally devoted to me for months. And he was gentle and very respectful (which is why the way he’s flirting left right and center right now is just … strange to me, quite apart from being a little hurtful). I sometimes think I led him on, because my own need and loneliness was so great. I was probably giving a lot of mixed messages. If that is so, I am the one who owes the apology.
It’s just when he finally broached to subject of taking it further after many months of this gentle pursuit, and I just froze and didn’t give the green light – he let go of me. Just as any sensible person would, an unavailable married woman who is unwilling to embark on an affair. And, to his credit, he did genuinely try to be a friend after that – he didn’t just cut me out because I refused him. I think if he was a true Player, he wouldn’t have valued the friendship of someone who he could not get? Who am I to judge him as a Player if he keeps trying to find someone else? He is single and available. Everyone he is hitting on is single and available. What he does, and how he runs his love life, is his business. What have I, a married woman, have the right to be angry about? Absolutely nothing.
This has been good to say. I have written on here for a very long time, always about the experience of limerence, which is a subset of all the things going on in my life. But not of the context, and now that I have finally written it, I think the limerence makes more sense, too.
Thank you for listening.
Emily – I got teary-eyed reading your story. It’s heartbreaking but beautifully written. Thank you for sharing it. I hope it was therapeutic for you to put all of that in writing. I think you’re really getting to a deep understanding of where your limerence and your feelings about your LO really come from. I wish I could think of some wisdom or advice to give you but I can’t at the moment, but I still just wanted to reply to thank you for sharing your story in such an open way, and to tell you that I hear you and feel for you and want to send some love and good vibes your way today.
Thank you for sharing your story, Emily. That is really hard. I can’t imagine what that’s like. You are a good woman with good judgment. I believe you’ll do the right thing, whatever that is. I wish I could relieve some of that burden for you. That is heavy.
Emily, I’m so sorry that you are going through this with your SO. I do feel fortunate and blessed my SO and I have such a good relationship, unlike many here at LWL. It’s one of the things that makes my LE vexing. The best I can come up with is, I was never limerent for my SO, but in my past I have been limerent for at least 2 maybe 3 other woman. One of these woman I could have had dated instead of my wife but I chose to date and marry my wife. I think my LO is getting in touch with a big past “what if”. What if I chose hot passionate romance over steady companionship. Wouldn’t that feel fun and exciting.
Emily, I wish I could give you great advice in your situation, but I can’t. I can just tell you thank you for sharing, and I can understand the pain it must cause. We all want to feel loved by those we care so much about.
@Emily,
As I read your story, I could not help but think of my ex-wife. Your story was like a creul rewind back to that tumultuous time in my marriage, where I ran the ship. Where the meals she made were crap and she initiated the sex.
I was not a good husband and I write this, not expecting a pat on the back. I’m guilty of being very much like your husband. And not a day goes by, that I don’t think of something I did then, that I totally regret now.
Fortunately for my ex though, enough bad things happened to me over the next decade, that caused in me, a paradigm shift. I’ll not get into it here because it would take me days to type it all out. But I consider it retribution, and well deserved.
I am sorry that you are in a bad place in your marriage. Your post was almost like reading a letter my ex wrote, just before our divorce was finalized, and it broke my heart.
It is no wonder LO seems like a good thing to you. It also seems the timing is there for a reason.
Unfortunately though, your husband may need an eye opening event to bring him back down to earth. I know that may not be what you want to hear, but my ex firmly believes, “God you cannot hurry, but he’ll be there don’t you worry. He may not come when we want him, but he’s right on time.”
Thank you for writing your story. I’m sure it felt good to get that all out. It was nice to see your good efforts to vent.
If it’s any consolation, you are in my thoughts tonight. And I hope something comes out in your favor at some point.
@ Lost in Space
“I hear you and feel for you”
Thank you, I do feel seen and heard by you, even if I don’t actually know you. Human to human. It is frankly amazing.
@ Lovisa
“I wish I could relieve some of that burden for you.”
I appreciate the sentiment very much, I know how your instinct is to make things easier for others, your kindness means a lot.
@ Speedwagon
“We all want to feel loved by those we care so much about.”
That is the truth of the matter, isn’t it? So many of us limerents here – we just want to be loved, really that is all it is. In life, it takes all forms. I have to say, hanging here on LwL, I see so many people fighting tooth and nail to get over limerence for the sake of their SOs, and it gives me faith in goodness and humanity. Good SOs are worth the effort!
@ MJ
“you are in my thoughts tonight.”
Thank you for your kind wishes.
Kind wishes to you all tonight, for all we each have to bear! May there be some ease eventually.
“And it can come out of anywhere, over anything, and it blindsides me, and extinguishes joy and replaces it with pain and shame”
Emily – in my worst moments as a husband, I know I made my wife feel exactly this same way. I’m remembering one time in particular, things were tight and I’d been worrying all day about money and paying the bills, and my wife came home all excited because she’d bought something special for the two of us (I think it was tickets to see a band we both loved). And out of my stress, I started berating her about how could she spend all that money when we were barely getting by, why didn’t she have any self discipline, this is why we’re always broke, etc, etc… and I just watched her crumple in front of me, all the joy extinguished from her as I brought her from feeling happy and excited at doing something nice for both of us, to feeling ashamed at herself and hurt by me. And seeing the effect I had on her, the way I had extinguished her joy in that moment, made me feel like absolute dog$hit, I hated myself for it so bad, wanted to just crawl in a hole and die. I’d have done anything to go back in time and take that back. And it took a long time for us to recover from that moment and get back to where we could feel joy together again.
And over the course of our 20 years together, there’ve probably been a half dozen or so times when I’ve done that to her, and I still burn with shame thinking about those times, and I’ve worked really hard on myself to control my reactions to try to never make her feel that way.
But if your husband does this to you all the time, and if he sees nothing wrong with it and doesn’t see it has his problem to address… damn. I honestly don’t know if that’s something that can be repaired.
@Lost in Space
Yes. This happened last week when I was all excited about something our child did. I thought he as the other parent would be pleased. Instead he just had to point out something I did wrong regarding that too. And you said you felt terrible when you did it to your wife. He didn’t. He just wanted to be right. And he was sure he was right. I cried for an hour in the bathroom. My girlfriends are furious with him. One of them called him holier-than-thou.
You know, it’s a pretty big deal for me to let my friends to know what is going on. It felt disloyal to say, and I only started open up to them less than half a year ago about my marital problems which have probably been going on for years now. But doing it alone wasn’t healthy (and I fell into limerence then, which is a very isolating incident too, because it is yet another secret to keep).
Saying it to you all here too, somehow is a big deal too. That it’s so bad, I have to say it in public, even anonymously to strangers. It feels like it really is real somehow – I cried heaps after I wrote it and also from all your kind words of support.
Emily,
Time to play another game.
Where do you see yourself in 6 months, a year, 5 years from now?
There are more than a few posters for whom a dissatifying marriage contributed to limerence. LOs are catalysts.
I know 3 people who terminated marriages after as decade or more and went on to successful subsequent marriages. One over 40 years, one over 20, and another over 10.
As far as I know, none of the parties was a limerent.
You’re facing some difficult choices. Are you working with a pro? Maybe it’s time to stop focusing on trying to save it and looking at moving beyond it.
From what you say, you’re in an emotionally abusive relationship. Those can wear anybody down. You shouldn’t have to put up with it.
I don’t have much to say here. Being that I can’t really echo anybody else’s situation. I would give anything to have some semblance of any friendship with LO. However, that is not to be. At least right now.
LiS, I’m happy to see you’ve reached what looks like a happy medium. I guess I would only say, everything is good at home now, so I guess be careful. I know that may sound like cliche advice, but I guess our situations are different.
Mj, I’m thinking about changing my situation to be more like yours so that I don’t have contact with my LO. I’ll tell you more later. I need to get my daughter to swim lessons right now.
Mj, I think it would be nice to have a distant LO so that everything stays in your head. Let me explain. I use men as muses, in other words, I use men to inspire me to be the best version of myself. I’ve done it my whole life and I thought everyone did it. So I’ve been thinking that I should pick a new muse and never talk to him or minimally talk to him. That way I can have the benefits of the fantasy relationship without hurting anyone else. I don’t know if you are familiar with my story, but I thought I could keep my limerence to myself when I transferred to LO3, but then he disclosed to me that he was too attracted to me to be my friend. Anyway we got through that by establishing boundaries, but he mentioned a few times that he might be distant from me for the sake of focusing on his family. That statement implies that I interfere with his family which I never want to do. So whenever he seems distant, I assume he is focused on his family and I hesitate to reach out to him. Does that make sense? We are in one of those cycles right now and I feel distressed, but I’m not willing to reach out to him because I would rather be distressed than interfere with his family. I have been thinking about downgrading him to a muse, but I don’t think it’s possible. So I think I should pick a new muse. I have my eye on a neighbor. This time, I won’t have personal contact with him. I’ll be friendly when I see him, but no texting, no calls, definitely no flirting. I might not even be friendly in person, I’ll see how it goes. He actually seems fine to talk to me. There are no weird feelings between us. I hope this works. I would like to continue using men for inspiration, but I don’t want to hurt anyone.
What I’m saying is that your situation with your LO could be effective motivation and inspiration for you as long as you never see her. Because, let’s face it, you leak limerent symptoms. If you could keep it in your head, you could use limerence to get through this rough phase and then abandon limerence when you’re ready. I could be wrong, it’s just an idea.
@Lovisa,
I have often said to myself, many many times, that the only way this limerence will stop, is if someone comes along and derails it. That means I find an SO that hopefully will glimmer, or LO tells me to go to hell. (Worst case scenario)
I am in a place right now, where I could possibly find a few girlfriend interests, IF I really, truly wanted to. Thing is, is that none of them glimmer, and none of them are LO. So my interest in them is minimal at best.
When the LE hit, the bar was raised and I can’t seem to want to lower it. I still hold myself out for LO. Despite her obviously rejecting me, being unavailable and most likely uninterested. If she really truly wanted to reach out, we still work for the same company and there are ways to get messages over to me. I still talk to some of her friends. Its just obvious the feelings aren’t mutual and I know this. I totally and completely, undeniably know this.
But the insanity is that I ADORE LO. I mean over the top, head over heels, out of my mind, can’t get enough of, idolize, cherish, delight
in adoring LO. It’s like she is my new favorite fetish. She consumes every part of me so so much, that when the lows hit, I just want to die. I bawl like a Baby. I feel like doing nothing, but just wallowing in sorrow over her. Cry out her name and beg God to pick me back up. It’s really that bad and really that pathetic!! When I get it bad, I mean I really get it bad.
You mention wanting to keep things in your head and I think that’s the place where I most don’t want any of these limerent thoughts to be at. I would like to have a real, actual friendship. One that starts out innocent, but grows through time and respect. I once believed that LO could have been that person, when the LE hit. Because I never have felt this way about anyone, ever..
I read your stories and from the others on here, and I get almost jealous, thinking I have no right to reply to much of it, because my LE feels so different, compared to yours..
I read many whom are in some sort of friendship with their LOs and have SOs back at the house. Some are on LO #2, #3, #4. I don’t think I’ve ever been limerent before. At least not to this extent. I may have some anxious attachment and I probably was a little too clingy with my last SO. But then again, she was never really an SO to begin with. A co-worker yes, but it was probably just more a situationship. It got stale because I think she always had a slight interest in somebody else. But I don’t know.
Your situation is unique to me as I have never heard of musing before. If I did, I guess I never knew what it was. It even causes me to wonder if LO was playing something similar like that with me, when we were playing the eye contact game every day. Good times!!
I see your point about the fantasy aspect and I guess it’s a different take on lifting yourself up in spirit and all. Since I take it you have an SO, does it make things better in your homelife? I mean you have to do what works best for you. Good that you really don’t want to hurt anyone. I can respect that.
I come home to 2 whiny cats every night, that puke all over my house.
(They’re my kids’ cats and my ex can’t have pets at her place, go figure) I would love to come home to somebody again. I still tell my ex all the time how divorce really sucks and I’m never going to stop telling her that.
I think LO has already motivated me in ways I didn’t expect or thought I would have to consider. Even though I don’t see her much, I still dress a little nicer for work and keep myself tight, in the event, like the other day, she makes an appearance again. I don’t want to consider approaching her, looking like a busted mattress.. And that’s just it, I don’t think I could keep her just exclusively only in my head. If I had the balls, I’d love to go over and meet her in her parking lot one day, just to see her shocked reaction. I know she would be.. Seeing her again last week re-amped up all that glimmery, shimmery, excitement I got every day seeing her in the office. Like this was a major dopamine fix. Thereby solidifying her place again in my story. She’s the most amazing looking Woman on planet earth. Hands Down.
The bar is set super high. And I’m not saying your wrong for suggesting anything. Infact I appreciate you even more so now, for telling me your story. And I appreciate you taking the time for little pathetic me. I just really can’t say when/if I will give up on LO.
Mj, I think she was just looking at you in the beginning because you were looking at her.
This muse thing that I do is a lot like how you described that you dress a little better because you don’t want to look bad if you bump into LO. It’s really that simple for me. I’ll set a goal for myself and try to achieve it to impress a man. I know the muse probably won’t even notice, but this method still helps me achieve my goals. I used LO2 until I switched to LO3. I’ve been using LO3 ever since, but I really hate that our friendship might cause problems for his family. He hasn’t said that it does, but it was implied that I distract him. I’m thinking it’s time for me to scale way back on our contact and find a different way to motivate myself. Of course, I will be receptive to contact from him. This is just something I have been thinking about lately. There will be some problems along the way, but I think it’s doable.
You’ve got some bad habits. Do me a favor and stop looking down on yourself. It’s not helpful. Sure you’ve made some mistakes, who hasn’t? Our mistakes don’t define us.
Thank you Lovisa.
I appreciate you and your support. You’re presence here is invaluable.
I do believe you when you say mistakes don’t define us. But in my case, they do follow us.
More on that some other time..
“More on that some other time…”
Deal!
This distant muse idea is interesting.
I’m sorry you are currently distressed as well. You give so much to people here, I hope we can give you some comfort when things are rough.
Oh Emily, you just did. Thank you so much.
I’m sure people are like, why is Lovisa on here so much? Well, right now I am waiting for swim lessons to end. Earlier it was an orthodontist appointment. This website is my adult contact. Pathetic right? Oh well. The kids’ needs come first and I can sneak little moments of escape on my phone. Swim lessons just ended. We’re off to the library to pick up one of my girls.
I sometimes wonder if LO even knew half of what I felt for her and if she left “for my sake”? At least perhaps part of the reason. Why she could be so friendly every time I saw her all the way up to her last day on the job and then completely forget about me. Could I have just been friends with her? Did she know I couldn’t have been? So she left the situation. Difficult to know what is going on inside someone else’s head when you can’t even figure wth is going on in your own head.
She has positive feelings for you. She doesn’t know how intense the experience was for you. You are not the reason she quit her job. If you were the reason, she wouldn’t have invited you to her last day at work. She thinks of you as a friend from work who probably either had a crush on her or acted like he had a crush on her just to make her feel special. She thinks you are kind. Someday you will get these answers from a better source than a stranger on the internet. But until then, you just have me telling you that she is fine and you are fine.
Let’s make today great!
Thank you for the reassurance Miss Lovisa. The uncertainty I guess is finally getting to me about how it all went down in the end. Just another part of the limerence I need to get through. I’ve made it this far right? Just a little bit further to go.
Yeah, unfortunately it is one of those “illusion of closure” things that we have been advised to let go of. Which a lot of us don’t because it is our last link to LO. When you are ready to let her go, you will say I don’t know, and I will never know so I’ll stop thinking about it now and consign it to one of those things in life with no closure (of which there are many).
Emily,
“When you are ready to let her go, you will say I don’t know, and I will never know so I’ll stop thinking about it now and consign it to one of those things in life with no closure (of which there are many).
You’ll be getting close when you think, “What would you do with the knowledge if you had it?” and you keep coming up with “Nothing.”
The EAP counselor I worked with took a positive delight in hitting me with that question on a regular basis.
Adam,
You’re in the turbulent phase of exiting an LE.
If you really want to get past an LE, it’s better when your LO leaves of their own volition. Not any less painful, just better.
It’s easier to keep an XLO out of your life than to get them out of your life. Being a former submarine officer, I used the image of once they broke contact, I turned away went deep and silent.
If you can achieve no contact, every day you don’t contact them or social media stalk them adds another coat of varnish.
If you’re lucky, they don’t cycle back through. Some do, some don’t.
I’ve structured my Social Media presence to dissuade any of my XLOs to try to re-engage me. They probably aren’t looking but if they do, they know my status. At one time, I structured my social media to try to bait them out. Setting that up without my wife catching on was tricky.
I told you managing limerence takes work
You periodically hear of stories where two people Re-engage after years or even decades. What you don’t read about are the stories of people that try it and get rebuffed. That’s not the material for Hallmark movie.
I’m firmly in the the “Exes are exes for good reasons” camp. I also see LOs as “almosts.” There’s a whole body of information on those on Thought Catalog.
I’m at the point where even if I became available, trying to re-engage any of my XLOs would just be lame.
This is another one of the phases that you have to muscle through. You have an SO to focus on. As bad as limerence is for attached individuals, having that purpose is an advantage that unattached limerents may not have.
No contact isn’t that difficult to maintain as I know the consequences would be great. I can expect my wife to be only so forgiving in this situation. Plus I want LO to be able to go on with her life. It isn’t her fault that I haven’t moved on in a healthy manner like she has.
Like I was telling Miss Lovisa I guess it is the uncertainty. Why I continue to care after a year I think might be a subconscious last ditch effort to not finally and completely let go? I haven’t had an intrusive thought in over a month. My music is coming back to me without it being about LO. About the only temptation I get regarding the limerence is looking at her social media. My brain says “you’re only just checking on her to make sure she is safe” but I know that’s a lie I am telling myself.
I am very content that I can talk to my wife about the limerence and LO. Her knowing the full of it makes me responsible for what I say and do. I have someone to keep me in check until I can again be responsible for myself. Which feels like I am getting closer to.
She is my purpose. The more we talk in general and the more we move forward it is getting easier for LO not to be on my mind all the time. And when she is, it’s just a pleasant memory not an intrusive thought. The light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter. I just need to stop looking back and keep walking forward toward the light.
Song of the Day: “Keep On Truckin” – Eddie Kendricks (1973)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dydWc6VwvFo
I was a senior in HS when this one came out.
Adam
I know it is cliche, but man if I just had half a clue what was going through my LO’s head at anytime my life might not have been thrown off the tracks. I mean I must have very low Emotional Intelligence cause I just cannot read people. The limerence is a blinder of course, but still…
Nick
Nick
You just caught me at a better place. If you go read my comments when I first found this place in January in the “New Year Purpose” blog of Dr L’s you might not think so much. There was a time I held on to everything LO said and did just hoping it was more than it was. Every “thank you”, “Adam you’re sweet” and that smile, oh that smile.
It got so bad my wife took off her wedding ring off, literally, and would not wear it (for about 2-3 months I think) until I got my $hit together about LO because even after almost a year I was still hanging on to the idea that she would come back because I was sure LO felt something for me and couldn’t just up and leave and never call me.
When it comes to this limerence we all have our pace to set. No one person is the same in recovery time. It took my wife and both my sons to not trust me and believe when I said the things I did regarding LO. When I realized I had almost broken my family apart over LO I started to realize how deep I was in. I, not LO, had almost betrayed my family. All because I had no emotional fortitude to let her go.
I don’t understand the format of the comments section- it seems a bit disorganized, no? Some comments am able to respond to, some do not have the option. It is frustrating. There’s no chronological sense to them. Could this be fixed? I was asked by Lovisa to comment on Emily’s situation by I’m unable to do so for the above said reason. I am a frequent visitor to the Chump Lady’s blog (her philosophy and view on affairs really resonates with me- a former chump and as a licensed therapist I draw much inspiration from the stories) and her comment section is very simple yet straightforward in way that blog commentators get the conversation going in a logical manner. Anyway, on a different note, Dr L was mentioned on one of the YouTube videos about limerance I watched recently and that’s what brought me here.
Lastly, albeit it is not my place to pass judgement but when Limerance spills into emotional affairs, I’d caution anyone to pause and think about the pain this causes to partners. At best, please consider taking the experience to your grave. Far too many patients of mine are the innocent byproduct of LE caused by spouses/partners so I don’t see a point in inflicting more pain into this already painful to us limerants experience.
I wanted to post some reflections after my first week back in contact with LO. After she reached back out to me a week and a half ago, we started talking and texting again. This past week, we had contact every day for the first 4 days of the week – we talked on the phone for about an hour each day on Monday and Wednesday, and bantered back and forth by text throughout the afternoons on Tuesday and Thursday. We stuck with safe “friend-zone” topics for the most part, but she did share some pretty personal stuff about her mental health and about her relationship with her ex-husband, and she also made it clear that she still considers this a secret relationship – one day she didn’t want to talk because her oldest daughter was in the car with her, and another day she asked if I was sure I wanted to talk because I was at home and my wife might get home while we were talking – my reply to that was “I think it’s fine, we’re just friends talking about stuff friends talk about”. I don’t know if that was reckless, or if it was an important step in trying to reprogram our relationship into an actual friendship by trying to remove the more affair-like aspects from it. I do know I couldn’t do that very often though before my wife started asking more questions about who’s my new female friend from work that I’m talking with all the time…
Friday I made a conscious decision not to initiate any contact with LO. I thought about texting her several times throughout the day, and based on the positivity of our contact the rest of the week I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t have minded, but it just felt important to me to have at least one day during the week without contact with her. Partly just to prove to myself that I could do it, and partly to prove to her that I’m still working at respecting boundaries. And partly again to try to work on re-programing our relationship into the friend zone – after all, I don’t have any platonic friends that I feel compelled to be in contact with every day of the week, so I need to break that habit with LO. And most importantly, I could feel the momentum building throughout the week and I was starting to worry that we were slipping into yet another one of our cycles where we’d end contact, then find a reason to resume contact, then the relationship gradually heat up until we reached a crisis point where we were considering pushing things too far, and then we’d end contact again. We’ve gone through that cycle a bunch of times already, and I have no desire to repeat it again, especially because the pain and grief after each “break up” seems to be worse than the time before.
So I left her alone all day on Friday, and she did the same, and our only contact was a friendly wave and smile when she drove past me in the parking lot at lunch time. And that evening and today I was certainly left with some of the familiar thoughts of longing and anxiety, but nothing too strong or too bad.
A couple of nights ago after SO went to bed, I also spent an hour or so re-reading all of my posts from the past few months on this blog, which was a pretty interesting activity – it really showed just what a tumultuous few months this has been in my life, reading the things I wrote when I was completely high on limerence and when I was completely crushed by her pulling away. It helped strengthen my resolve to try to keep things on more steady ground this time around and not allow the highs and lows to develop.
This coming week, I think my goal is to wait for her to make contact before I initiate contact, and to try to limit ourselves to maybe one phone call and a couple days of texting, and to keep the topics friend-zoned and avoid any emotional disclosures or overt displays of affect. Easy, right?
Thanks for the update, Lost in Space. It sounds like you recognize that you need to limit what you talk about and the frequency of contact with your LO. I agree completely. I like your plan for next week.
Let’s talk a little about emotional affairs. There are different definitions out there. A few red flags to watch out for are…
Does contact with LO take anything away from your primary relationship? Like, when you talk to your LO, are you satisfied enough that you don’t feel like you need to talk to your wife?
Is there secrecy?
Are you getting more of your emotional intimacy needs met by your LO than your wife?
It is just some stuff to think about. By the way, I’m impressed that you talked to a man from your church about your situation with LO. That was very brave. Nice job!
Lovisa, thanks for the feedback and for those questions. Definitely good questions for checking in with myself now and on an ongoing basis.
I’d say no – I don’t feel like my current relationship with LO is detracting in any way from my relationship with SO. I don’t talk with SO less when I’m talking with LO, and I don’t feel like LO is meeting my emotional intimacy needs more than SO. I can honestly say (and this is essentially why I’m allowing myself to continue in some sort of relationship with LO) that my marriage is in a better place now, and my wife objectively seems happier and more secure, than at any time in years – paradoxically my LE seems to have been steadily improving my marriage and relationship with SO (or perhaps it’s not the LE itself, but more due to all the self-reflection and intentional investment in my marriage I’ve been doing as a result of the LE).
I’d say that my relationships with SO and LO are just different – they don’t replace each other, they don’t work against each other, they can co-exist in my heart and mind. I think it is possible to love 2 women at the same time, because they’re different people and I love them in different ways and for different reasons. I know that SO is my lifelong person and she always needs to come first, but I do still have lots of love in my heart for LO as well and to me that doesn’t seem to diminish my love for SO at all.
The main sticking point for me continues to be the secrecy. There is still an element of secrecy in my relationship with LO that feels uncomfortable, but also seems unavoidable. I’d love to be able to just be open about our relationship with my SO, but I just can’t do it, not without hurting SO a lot. I’d really love to just be able to have a friendship with LO out in the open, to be able to say to SO “oh, so on Saturday when you’re going out with your friends all afternoon, I’m going to take the kids and hang with out (LO) and her kids for a few hours” and have that be ok. But I just can’t imagine that ever working.
I made an uneasy peace with the secrecy awhile back, but LO struggled with it a lot more, which was one of her main reasons for pulling the plug on our relationship last month. I’m actually kind of confused by her now – I don’t think that anything changed that made her more ok with keeping secrets, and she definitely still seems to want to keep the extent of our relationship a secret, but now she wants to talk and text with me again. I think maybe she came to the conclusion that she’s getting something out of our relationship that feels so important to her that it makes it worth the price of secrecy, as long as our boundaries are good enough that she doesn’t feel too guilty about anything. It’s going to be tight wire act I think.
I don’t know if I mentioned this before, but the other complicating factor from a secrecy standpoint is that her eldest daughter actually works in our workplace as well, and then LO picks up her other 2 daughters (one’s a teen, the other is 5) on her way home from work. So I’m always confused about the rules – it’s clear that she doesn’t want her eldest to know about our relationship (partly because eldest daughter might tell LO’s SO, and partly because it might lead to a workplace scandal), but some days she’s totally fine talking with me in front of her 16 year old and other days she’s not. So LO limits how much she talks with me at work in part because she doesn’t want her eldest daughter to notice how close we are, and then sometime we are allowed to talk on the phone during her commute home and sometimes we aren’t, depending on which daughters are in the car.
But then there was this one time a few months ago when LO had something bad happen at work and her eldest daughter called me to tell me about it and ask if I could help “because I know you and my mom are pretty close”… so I don’t know how really secret our relationship is from that daughter either.
So it’s all pretty confusing and complicated, and my life would certainly be easier and more peaceful if I just let her go. But talking with her just feels so good, and it feels so nice to hear her say that I make her feel good and happy and to have her want me in her life again, that it seems I’m willing to tolerate all of the frustrating limitations on our relationship just to continue to have some degree of connection with her.
Hi Lost in Space,
That is a lot of really good additional background information. Wow, you have a lot to think about. Your story gets more interesting every time we talk.
“Oh so on Saturday when you’re going out with your friends all afternoon, I’m going to take the kids and hang with out (LO) and her kids for a few hours” and have that be ok. But I just can’t imagine that ever working.”
LiS, that sounds like you’re juggling the whole world over there. I don’t even think as a single guy, I would want that much drama from an LO. Then again I know my LO is childless, so thats somewhat in my favor. But still, no wonder you struggle with secrecy.
My hats off to you..
MJ – just to be clear, that scenario is not my real life, it’s just a fantasy of what I think I’d like to have in my real life. My real life at the moment is that I work 50 hours a week and spend most of the rest of my time with SO and the kids, and at the moment I get to talk to LO on the phone for 30-60 minutes once or twice a week and exchange some friendly banter by text a couple times a week, and say hi in passing a couple times a week around work, and that’s the extent of our actual relationship now.
Would I actually want to have more of a relationship with LO where I was actually dividing up my time outside of work? Part of my says yes, of course, but I think I’m reality I wouldn’t really be cut out for that kind of life.
A few months ago, shortly after disclosure when LO and I were having a series of really reckless phone conversations exploring all sorts of hypothetical scenarios, she told me she’d just watched a biopic about a famous singer who had a secret second family for his whole life, complete with a another woman and a second set of kids with her. She asked me what I thought it would be like to be in a situation like that. I remember telling her I didn’t think that anyone would really choose to be in that sort of situation, but that I could understand how someone might decide it was better than not getting to have any shared life at all with someone they loved. I asked her what she thought it would be like to be the other woman in that scenario. She told me that she could imagine choosing a life like that it if it was just her, but that she couldn’t imagine involving her kids in a scenario like that.
But again, that’s all just idle fantasy that I really shouldn’t be indulging in. There’s still a part of me that just really wants to have more of LO in my life, but that part of me (thankfully) isn’t strong enough to overpower the better part of me that values loyalty to SO. I need to work on accepting that I will never actually share a life with LO in any meaningful sort of way, and that perhaps getting to remain tangentially involved in her life as a supportive friend is the best I can hope for.
Lovisa – truthfully, I feel very hemmed in and trapped by all the boundaries and barriers, some of which are self imposed and some of which are external. I wonder how much you feel the same with your situations.
Even when we were still allowing ourselves to get together in person, it was almost always limited. She usually has lunch with her daughter, so at best she’d get to come see me for the last 15 minutes of the lunch hour. Or she’d come see me during her 15 minute afternoon break. Once her daughter called out sick so we actually spent the whole lunch hour together. That was the most time we ever spent together at one time.
I told her several times in the past that I dreamed of just once spending a whole day with her, of sneaking off somewhere that no one knew us and just spending a day walking around and eating together and talking like normal people. She always thought that sounded nice but too dangerous. She did tell me a few times too that she felt really sad about how limited our relationship was.
Last week we were talking on the phone and she told me she wants to start hiking more and spending more time in nature. Ever since, I’ve been thinking about how nice it would be to play hooky from work one day and go on a hike together, but I’m pretty sure she’d say that violates our boundaries and she might get upset with me just for bringing it up. And I’m pretty sure that it’s the kind of thing that should prohibited by our boundaries too – even if we could both be on our best behavior all day and not do anything crazy, it would still be an escalation in our relationship and another line crossed towards betraying my SO. So as much as I want to, I’m not going to ask her if she’d like to go hiking with me.
LiS,
I get that was the fantasy part of what you were trying to get across. I was just kind of amazed at the complexity of your situation. And I get why you feel it would be easier just to forget about her sometimes. Just seems like a lot to juggle, but good that you have it under control.
That has to be hard where you both seem to really like each other but always have to stop at the barrier.
I’m weak as they come. I probably couldn’t control myself in situations like that.
Might be a good reason I’m divorced now too.
Hi Lost in Space,
I talked to my SO last night about your situation. His reaction was cute. First, he thinks you are dangerously close to your LO. Second, he said, “I just don’t get it.” Then he pondered for a moment and said, “Maybe I do have an LO. You are my LO, [Lovisa]. You are the woman stuck in my head.” It was cute. He really doesn’t understand limerence, but he is trying to understand. I wondered if he had limerence for any of his past relationships so I asked if he remembered being heartbroken after a break up. He said that he remembered being sad. I tried to talk about the obsessive thinking that maybe he experienced. He couldn’t relate. But he never obsesses about anything. It isn’t in his nature to obsess about things. I think he is a non-limerent and he will never fully understand. I am so lucky that he is willing to love me while I go through this phase.
I love the boundaries between me and my LO because I couldn’t have him in my life if the boundaries weren’t there. Btw, my LO has asked me to go hiking with him a few times. We hiked together one time with one of my daughters. That hike had a purpose which was to take my daughter to a cave that LO knew about. He also took us to a slot canyon which is one of my favorite hikes now. I think LO may have felt a little confused about the purpose of our hike. He may have thought it was an opportunity for us to see each other and I brought my daughter as a chaperone. It wasn’t like that for me. It was a way to get my teenager out of the house and into nature and some exercise. My daughter loves caves so she was willing to go hiking if there was a cave at the end. I didn’t use her as an excuse to see LO, I used him as a tour guide. It was a very nice hike, but two days later, he disclosed that he was too attracted to me and he couldn’t be my friend anymore. That was when we started setting boundaries for ourselves and he felt like he could continue to be my friend because of the boundaries. He has asked me to go trail running with him a few times since then, but my SO says it feels too much like a date, so I haven’t done it. I am not willing to cross the line with LO because I don’t want to hurt my SO and because I would have to go NC with LO if we ever crossed a barrier. And I like having LO in my life. Btw, my limerent symptoms are way down and it is liberating. We are talking briefly, maybe one or two times a week. And I feel content. Content feels so good! I hope I am done with limerence. I don’t think I’ll ever stop noticing attractive men, but I definitely won’t daydream about them. I learned my lesson. It is interesting because I have daydreamed about so many attractive men over the years, but only one of them became an LO with intrusive thoughts. So part of me wonders if I have to stop the daydreaming. I don’t know. But I am afraid of daydreaming about an attractive man right now. I tried it a few days ago and it triggered alarm signals in me. I just don’t know.
I couldn’t have a double life like you described because the guilt would be unbearable. I couldn’t keep that secret for long. However, I might be able to be the other woman if I were desperate for a companion. My ancestors were polygamous so I’ve actually thought a lot about these things because I wanted to understand my ancestors. I know my ancestors weren’t doing it in secret, but it’s still kind of the same thing.
Anyway, I’m babbling. Just be careful, okay? Your SO is your priority.
MJ – I hope I have it under control. Some days I think I do and other days I’m not sure. I know I could end up divorced over this if I’m not careful. That would be horrible. Horrible beyond my comprehension. Nothing could be worth the pain I know a divorce from my wife would bring to me and her and our family. I need to always keep that at the forefront of my mind.
Lovisa – I always love hearing about you and your SO. You have a good one there!
It sounds like in your relationship with your LO, he tends to be the boundary pusher and you’re the boundary enforcer. And fortunately he respects your boundaries so that when you say you can’t go trail running with him, he respects that and doesn’t keep pushing it on you. And in return for both of you respecting boundaries, you and him get to maintain some degree of relationship that you both continue to find rewarding. Would you say that’s about right?
In your heart of hearts, do you feel good about your current relationship with your LO? Do you imagine it continuing this way indefinitely? Do you see it cooling off into an actual legit friendship without the other feelings and desires? Or will there always be some smoldering embers there that could reignite in the future and challenge both of you to stay faithful? Do you secretly long for more? Do you think he does?
And do you think your SO is actually totally ok with the situation, or is he just tolerating it because he loves you but he’d ultimately be happier if you and LO eventually ceased all contact?
Those are great questions, Lost in Space.
First, I want to draw your attention to Summer’s comments just in case you missed them. She has some concerns for you. I agree with much of what she said except I think you should continue in marriage therapy. Her comments are at the bottom of this thread.
To answer your questions.
Yes, the way you described my current situation is accurate, but my LO isn’t much of a boundary pusher either.
In my heart of hearts, I feel good about my current relationship with my LO. I can imagine it continuing this way indefinitely, but I think it will be like any friendship that has more contact sometimes and less other times. I think it cooled off into an actual legit friendship without the other feelings and desires. I don’t think there will always be some smoldering embers there that could reignite in the future and challenge both of us to stay faithful. I don’t long for more secretly or openly. I can’t speak for him. He seems content.
I think my SO is ok with the situation because he trusts me. My SO loves me. I think he likes LO and doesn’t want any bridges burned between our family and LO.
My SO and I talked about these things on our walk last night. Yes, I said walk. I can’t do high impact exercises for a while, but at least I can walk. I have some ideas for how to continue training for my 50-miler without running and I’m kind of excited about it.
Last night we talked about Dr L’s recommendation that limerents go NC as soon as they recognize the glimmer. At first my SO thought that was sound advice, but I disagree. Do you know how many neighbors I couldn’t talk to if I followed that rule? I don’t think it’s realistic. I pointed out that my SO spent last Saturday at an activity with a beautiful woman. And he spent the Saturday before that with another beautiful woman. He said he doesn’t see them as “beautiful women,” but when I pointed it out, he agrees that they are both beautiful. I suggested that he spent his Saturdays doing the right things and it would be sad if he couldn’t participate in those activities just because they included beautiful women. He agreed and even thought it was laughable. We decided that it isn’t realistic to avoid someone just because you notice that they glimmer. But tbh, I don’t think either of those women glimmer for my SO. He thinks the closest he has experienced of the glimmer was with an employee who left the company about a year ago. She triggered his hero instinct and he doesn’t like her new SO. He hears things through the grapevine about her and he thinks she could do much better. But he doesn’t feel like he “wants” her, he just wants to see her in a healthy relationship.
I hope that answers your questions.
Very good questions Lovisa! I’m curious to know what’s your background? your replies and questions are very different.
My LO is so cold that there is no way he’s taking any intimacy away (we struggle with intimacy way before LO due to my issues). To me it’s more like venting to someone who is very comforting as he doesn’t complain/vent back like SO (he’s on the negative side in general…)
I try not to have secrecy. I told LO about our phone calls and meetings. I told him that I vent to him. Mostly because I vent about work. I also talked to him while the kids are in the car and didn’t raise a red flag because it was about work.
I’m going to think about your questions next time I talk to LO for sure. Keep the questions coming. they help rationalize this insane addiction.
I’m glad I could help, Lost and Confused. My background is that I am a conservative Christian, house wife, mother of five: one biological and four adopted from foster care. I came to LwL about a year and a half ago when I couldn’t stop thinking about a male friend. I refer to him as LO2. I tried deprogramming, but I just couldn’t stop the intrusive thoughts and they were awful! I was desperate so I used transference and now I have LO3. I am still friends with LO2 and he even knows some of the struggles that I went through. He also knows that I used transference and my SO knows, too. I did a lot of personal research to keep myself out of an EA when I realized that I was drawn to other men. There isn’t a clear definition, but there are some signs to look out for. I don’t have my notes with me so I can’t go over all of the red flags right now. I have also been through some difficult struggles with my kids so I’ve had hundreds of hours of therapy (I stopped counting when I hit 200 in 2014). I’ve had social skill training as well so that I could be a therapeutic adult for abused and neglected children. My degrees are in finance and research, just at the Bachelors level. I hope that answers your question about my background.
I’m so glad you’re thinking about the nature of your relationships with LO and SO.
Can we talk more about the lack of emotional intimacy in your marriage? It sounds like that could be the reason you are drawn to your LO.
I assume that you want to preserve your marriage. You’ll have to correct me if I’m wrong.
Just to be clear. I am a stranger on the internet. I have good intentions, but I am not a professional.
Best wishes!
“Just to be clear. I am a stranger on the internet.”
Yes, very true. But such a Wise Stranger..
LIS-
Hello. Long time no speak. I hope it’s ok that I am commenting on your most recent posts. I know others (hi Lovisa!) have been more consistently in touch, so take my comments or leave them. I just have been getting increasingly worried about you after reading many of your recent comments.
I don’t think your situation is that complicated. You want to have an affair. You are already having a full on emotional affair. You feel guilty because you love you wife, and know she will be very hurt when she finds out and if things progress to a physical affair it will be even worse and harder to explain away. I GET IT. I felt the same exact way about my LO. It took a lot of starts and stops before I was able to walk away, and I still miss him like mad. I might have had a full on affair with him had the opportunity arose- despite having an amazing, sexy, furling marriage with the man of my dreams. I get it.
I was very disappointed when you and LO got back in touch. I thought you were doing such good work feeling the feelings and moving past the pain of separation. I am concerned by some of your longer posts where you seem to be trying to see this from a different angle. It’s like you are trying to intellectualize and go over every detail for what I see is a pretty common issue. You want an affair.
I don’t think you and LO are going to be able to maintain “boundaries.” Having “boundaries” does not make this any less of an emotional affair. You are extremely good at being self-reflective, but sometimes I think you are not being fully honest with yourself. If you want to be honest with your inner desires to be with LO- ok. I know it’s not the norm here, but I wouldn’t judge you. Affairs happen all the time. But call it what it is.
The one thing I do think is not great is to continue to be in therapy with your wife while you are having an EA. That is really not fair to her. Here she is thinking she is working on her marriage, when you are withholding a serious impediment.
And I understand how limerence for another can actually be revitalizing for a marriage. I felt that way too. But let’s be honest- we all know it’s a big secret that you are keeping from you SO.
Sorry for the tough-love. I am about five months out from NC. I still long for my LO, but am doing much better. I starting to feel free from obsession and extreme highs and lows.
On a complete side note- I went on a few dates with Josh Ritter when I was younger. That was fun to see him mentioned here.
Hope you are doing ok. Sorry for being so negative. I do think this site can help all of us with accountability.
Oh. One more thing.
Before you say, but I don’t think about having sex with my LO… I would say, fantasizing about hiking, going out for a meal, spending the whole day with somebody is affair territory. I think, too often people look at affairs in a narrow way, but you have very strong feelings for this person. wanting to spend your whole day with them (to me) is a full on affair. And again, let’s be honest, these things generally do lead to physical interactions.
Summer – thank you very much for the clear-eyed appraisal of my situation. I think you’re right – I tend to overthink and overanalyze and make things seem more complicated than they really are, and in this case it probably is a strategy to let myself keep rationalizing my behavior by telling myself “but this is different” or “these are special circumstances so the normal rules don’t apply”. So it’s good for me to hear you look at the big picture and say “hey buddy, you’re not actually special or different, you’re just like every other person who wants to have an affair”.
I’m definitely in an emotional affair. I know this. No matter how many boundaries we put up, the feelings are still there and the secrecy is still there. If I’m involved with another woman and I’d feel ashamed for my wife to know about it so I keep it hidden from her, then it’s an emotional affair. I can’t lie to myself about that.
Do I want a physical affair? To be honest, I do still fantasize about sex with LO – not as often as I used to, but those thoughts still do come to me. I’m still very attracted to her and deep down I desire a sexual relationship with her. I’m also very emotionally bonded with her and I desire a closer emotional relationship, including talking with each other more often and doing things like spending hours together outside of work. I can’t lie to myself – those are all things I want.
Do I actually want to be in a physical affair though? Like do I actually want to cross that line and have it happen in real life, complete with all of the consequences that would accompany it? I don’t think I do. I like fantasizing about it. I like pretending that we could live in some alternate universe where we could have everything we want with each other but there would be no consequences for anyone else. But if a genie came out of a bottle right now and told me that they could grant me my wish of a full blown physical affair with LO, but that it would come with all the real life consequences – I would say no.
But I worry that I’m allowing myself to have a false sense of complacency, that I’m letting myself feel safer than I really am. I tell myself that the EA is limited by our boundaries and won’t ever be discovered, and that neither of us will ever push it forward to a PA. And I THINK that’s true, but I don’t KNOW that it’s true. I feel certain that I’m not going to be the one who pushes it to a PA – I just know that I don’t have that in me. I feel pretty confident that LO won’t either, based on everything that’s gone between us so far. But of course, you can never be 100% certain what another person will do.
And that’s what worries me most – if LO did decide one day to push things further, whether that was inviting me for an afternoon hike or coming into my office and kissing me, would I have the fortitude to say no? That’s what I’m honestly not sure about, and that’s what scares me. Take our NC for instance – it started because she wanted it, and you’re right, I was doing well and starting to recover and feel better and my limerence symptoms were decreasing little by little. But then she decided a couple of weeks ago, for reasons that I still don’t fully understand, that she wanted to get in contact again. I could have said no, I could have said that we’d made the right choice to go NC and needed to stick with it. But I didn’t – I told myself it would be so nice to talk with her again, and I figured we’d just talk once and catch up and then maybe talk again in a few weeks. But then we talked pretty much every day for a week and the chemistry was starting to feel just like it used to, and my limerence symptoms started getting stronger again, and I started thinking about things like inviting her on a hike.
So I guess right now, I’m ambivalent about continuing my relationship with LO. Not ambivalent in the common usage sense of “I don’t care”, but ambivalent in the root word sense of “strongly pulled in two opposite directions”. One part of me wants to be a man who is upright and loyal to my wife in heart and mind as well as in body. The other part of me wants to continue my relationship with LO. And that part of me is further divided by the part that wants to keep things at the current level and white-knuckle it with boundaries and rules, and the part that wants to push further “but not too far”.
There is no part of me that actually wants to end my marriage or hurt my wife. But I have to face the reality that this could be the outcome whether I choose it or not, if I’m not careful. I keep telling myself that I have it under control, that I can just indulge in this other relationship and as long as I stick with some boundaries there’s no chance anyone else will ever find out or get hurt, and I know that’s just not true. There’s always a chance.
Finally, regarding participating in marriage counseling while keeping this big secret from my wife, I think it depends on how you look at counseling. Is therapy a sacred process that must be entered into fully with an open heart and mind in order to be meaningful? Or is it a practical process where SO and I enhance our communication and our appreciation and respect by using tools provided by our therapist, and is that process ultimately helping to improve our marriage and keep me from drifting further away, even if I’m withholding some information? I think that marriage counseling would be a sham if I was going into it with the mindset of wanting it to fail so that I could then justify an affair, but I can truthfully say that I’m participating from a real place of wanting to make our marriage stronger and make myself a better husband.
PS – that’s really cool that you dated Josh Ritter! Are there any songs about you?
“Finally, regarding participating in marriage counseling while keeping this big secret from my wife, I think it depends on how you look at counseling. Is therapy a sacred process that must be entered into fully with an open heart and mind in order to be meaningful? Or is it a practical process where SO and I enhance our communication and our appreciation and respect by using tools provided by our therapist, and is that process ultimately helping to improve our marriage and keep me from drifting further away, even if I’m withholding some information? I think that marriage counseling would be a sham if I was going into it with the mindset of wanting it to fail so that I could then justify an affair, but I can truthfully say that I’m participating from a real place of wanting to make our marriage stronger and make myself a better husband.”
What is your goal? Dr. Marion Solomon says that when many people enter therapy they’re not seeking real change, they want to become comfortable in their current pathology.
I recommend you google why couples counseling rarely works. It may help you avoid potential pitfalls. Different agendas is one of them. Having another woman inside your head while your wife is clueless about that is somewhat disingenuous.
If your company has an Employee Assistance Program, I recommend you use it and see what that therapist has to say. Print out your post and let them read it. When I saw the EAP counselor for the first time, she asked my why I was there. I handed her the email from LO #4 that said that her BF assaulted her, she was moving out, and she really appreciated all the things I’d done for her and being there for her. I told the therapist I felt like a giant snowball was rolling down the mountain at me.
She said, “Oh, my…”
LIS-
A few things.
First- “keep rationalizing my behavior by telling myself “but this is different” or “these are special circumstances so the normal rules don’t apply” I think we all do this to a certain extent. The feelings of limerence can be so earth shattering. It’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking you are experience a soul-mate bond that is unique and unlike anything anyone else has experienced.
Actually, when I first found this website I was gobsmacked to realize how common my experience/feelings are. I now see limerence like any addiction that messes with your mind. Reminding myself how common my experience has been has actually helped me keep NC. Telling myself this “special connection” is just what most people feel when they become infatuated is helpful. Like you, I also deal with mutual limerence, which is its own beast.
I think you need to really think about what you want. Maybe you need to have an affair to fully get over this women. Or maybe you don’t really want to get over her. My best friend once said, “people have affairs all the time, just very quietly.” This is the same friend who had a torrid affair, got caught and divorced her husband. Although things have really worked out for the better for her in the long run. I actually don’t see her affair as being so horrible. It was the catalyst to get out of a bad situation. Maybe you need to lean into these urges? You have already crossed a pretty big line in terms of being unfaithful. Again, I’m not judging you. I think marriages are pretty complicated. Some relationships run their course.
Based on what you have written in the past, I have a feeling that is not your case. I think despite everything, you probably have a pretty strong marriage. But who am I to know. Just an anonymous internet reader. 🙂
Of course, if you did have an affair you would definitely run the risk of ending your marriage. The truth is you are actually running that risk right now. Some marriages do end because of emotional affairs. But you already know this, don’t you. I’m wondering how you would feel if you said to yourself- what I am doing is as bad as sleeping with LO. Maybe worse than a one night stand because I am so attached emotionally to LO.
When you think about the past few weeks with that lens how do you feel?
If you don’t want to be in an affair you need to go back to LC ,or even better NC. It sucks. It hurts. It makes you cry and feel like the whole world has gone gray. For me, these feelings also lasted for a loooonnnggg time. Like months… and I assume I won’t be feeling that much better for a some time. You are just going to have to do it. No more “boundaries” talk. Your relationship is not like Lovisa’s. I’m sorry. It is just not.
Or you can stay status quo. Just know that because of the barriers and secrecy this will likely not run its course. It will be a contact emotional rollercoaster. I think it’s fine if you want to spend so much time analyzing what LO’s actions mean. Just know that you already know the answer. She will run hot and cold, be distant or communicative, go in and out. She will put up lots of barriers and then take them down. Then you will both be in a crisis… then the whole thing will start all over again. (But you already know this.)
Either you except this about yourself or you change things. I think it is that simple. Well… you move in the direction of change because as we all know NC is very, very, very difficult. It might take you many tries if you go in that directions.
I understand that you are divided. Honestly, if I could have an affair with my LO and be guaranteed no one would ever know I would jump at the chance. I wouldn’t even think twice. My main reason for staying NC is my husband and LO’s wife. Oh… and our collective children. It’s not that I don’t seriously desire my LO. (Made worse by the fact that he is an ex, so my fantasies of him are based on memories.) As I have said many times, I am in a VERY happy marriage, but none the less I would happily have an affair. If I knew our spouses would never find out, I wouldn’t even feel bad about it. There. That is my truth. This is just the nature of the beast.
However, because I know I live in the real world, I know that having an affair puts literally EVERYTHING I hold dear in jeopardy. It would destroy my husband who is the best thing that has ever happened to me. The. very. best. thing.
This is what I focus on when I have the (very strong) urge to contact LO. I tell myself- “this is your addiction.”
As for therapy. You raise some good points, but then Limerent Emeritus also makes a good point. Having never been in therapy, I guess I don’t really know.
I just have a feeling there might be more to that than you are acknowledging. It’s really hard for me to imagine working on a marriage in any context, even if it is just how to communicate about doing the dishes when one person is having an EA.
But then again… I did have an EA… so what do I know?
As for Josh Ritter. Nope. No songs. Don’t I wish. We didn’t date. More like went on a few dates. But he was lovely. Lot’s of happy memories there.
LIS-
I just read over my comments. Apologies for the many typos. I am writing on my phone. Also, I hope you didn’t read my comment as an indication that I don’t think it’s important to work these issues out on LWL. Conversations here are rich and important. This is an amazing support network, and I would hate for you to think that I am trying to silence you in any way, or that I don’t care or have empathy for your situation (despite my limited commenting.) I just worry that you are in a cycle that doesn’t seem to be bringing you long-term happiness. Hopefully that makes sense.
Thanks Summer. I really appreciate your comments (and didn’t take any of them in a bad way at all). You seem to understand what’s in my head to a very large extent and I appreciate the way you really hold a mirror up to me and make me think through the hard questions.
You’re right that I essentially have three options – I can lean into my feelings and indulge in a full blown affair, I can go LC/NC and end the relationship, or I can stay status quo.
I’m not going to lean into my feelings and go for an affair. You’re right that sometimes an affair is the necessary catalyst for someone to end a bad marriage, but this is just not my case. My marriage is fundamentally good and I really do love my wife. I want to spend my whole life with her and I would be devastated if she and I couldn’t be together anymore because of my decisions. I can’t imagine a scenario where I could have an affair with LO and still stay married to SO. I feel very certain that if I ever cross the line into a PA with LO, my marriage is as good as dead. I have no illusions that I could have “just a little affair to get it out of my system” – not with LO, not with how strong our feelings already are. One slip and we’re not pulling it back. I know this.
So the question is between status quo vs taking decisive steps to end it completely. I know what the first few weeks of NC feel like – it sucks but I know I can survive it. I also know what the status quo feels like, for good and bad. I know what the risks are of maintaining an EA, and I know what effects it has on my own well-being and mental health to be always stuck in this in-between space.
I think the question I need to really ponder right now is “what am I actually getting out of the status quo?” It’s clear what the downsides are – what’s the upside that keeps me here? A few months ago, it was pretty clear to me what I was getting from LO – my marriage felt pretty deficient then, and LO gave me a sense of emotional connection and a feeling of being desired that I hadn’t felt in a long time. It was pretty straightforward- I had something big that was missing in my life, and she filled it. But now, my marriage and my relationship with SO is so much better – I feel emotionally connected with her, I have fun with her, I feel desired by her. I don’t actually NEED LO for anything anymore. But I’m still stuck on her. Is it simple addiction? Is it habit? Is it a feeling of obligation to her? Something else? I’m really not sure – I think I’m going to spend the rest of the night thinking about it, and I’ll report back to you tomorrow.
I always appreciate it when someone gives some tough love – even if it is to someone else, I often feel much of it can apply to me and is often a good reminder. So thank you.
They say the first step is to call something what it is. Lust. Desire. Deception. Wanting our cake and eat it too. We have a bigger block to admitting this than even saying “I have limerence” because … limerence feels like something that happens to us; the other things … say things about our character that violate many of our self-identities. Especially if we were brought up in a religious setting I think, when everyone around you is telling you what not to be, and to admit … actually, I am lustful. I am full of desire for my neighbor’s wife. I have not cleaved onto my wife. I have not (in my mind or body or both) forsaken all others. We would almost not recognize ourselves if we were to say, actually, I’m not that altruistic/pure/beneficent, if I really was honest, I just want this person in every single way possible – emotionally in my heart, mentally in my head, physically in my arms – and I want an alternate reality with this person (sorry SO, it’s not that I don’t love you) if I could get away with it. I would love to make babies with them (sorry to the children I already have, it’s not that I don’t love you). Etc. And then we think of how we regard people who have affairs and hurt their families and we recoil. This is not me, we tell ourselves. And that becomes, that means I don’t feel all those things (circular thinking). It also follows: this is not me, therefore anything I do is not all those things (when it probably is).
That sort of protection of our self-image is fundamental. Denial is one of the defense mechanisms Freud says we use to protect our ego. It is understandable we are in denial. But if you are fighting your truth as well as trying to recover from it … it makes it doubly hard. So Summer is actually doing a favor here (which I think LIS is aware of) by pointing out the self-deception.
Like Summer, I don’t say this to discourage sharing. I support all of you, fighting your own battles. I have noticed here that sometimes people deny and deny for ages, and then eventually start admitting (to themselves more than to anyone) that maybe things were not so simple after all. It is like we need to work up to it.
Share our stories with the interpretation we can ourselves accept. Then open up to more self-reflection. And healing improves then. Whatever it take, whatever the process.
The big one for myself was how I did not tick many of the boxes of an EA, and I was very proud to say so (to myself, but I’d be saying it to defend myself if anyone confronted me): but if I look at Lovisa’s questions – the one that I failed miserably was the secrecy point. If you were to look at any of my text messages to LO one by one, there is nothing “inappropriate” – I never talked about the state of my primary relationship, I never hinted at my feelings, etc. But what in the world was I doing reaching out to someone other than my SO every time I needed an emotional and dopamine hit? At the height of limerence, that was a few times, every day. And that was a secret. It was a secret because my SO would be shocked by the number of texts I was sending another person. It was a secret because all our friends’ eyebrows would be waggling if they knew of the frequent exchanges. It was even possibly a secret from LO and myself, as we were totally in denial over the inappropriateness of our exchanges (because if we faced it we would need to stop). We were just two friends … texting about friend things. Summer is right. This sort of “boundary” is bogus. We all know it. Deep in our gut, we know when we’ve crossed some kind of line. I think any protestations of innocence would die pretty quickly.
I found one part of your story extremely interesting LIS – the part where you said:
“Do I actually want to be in a physical affair though? … I don’t think I do. I like fantasizing about it.”
I think that is some sort of progress. If you are clear on that much.
Another thing I had a thought about while reading this thread was: I think most of us don’t have a Plan in place of what to do if something were to happen. We are so busy coping with our current discomfort of limerence, that we don’t actually know what how we will react if something were to happen. For example, some of us we plan, okay I’m going LC. This means I will do X, Y, and Z. But very few of us prepare for the possibility of “what if LO does A, B, or C”? What if LO: reaches out to us? is suddenly available? declares mutual limerence? suddenly gets into trouble and (appears to) need us? confides a secret? ramps up the txting? reaches out and grabs our hand? leans forward and kisses us? suddenly starts crying and flings themselves in our arms? On one hand, it doesn’t pay to think about too many of these scenarios (as they are fantasies) but on the other hand, I think if we are going LC or NC we need to have a clear Plan of what to do if LO reaches out. Because, 50/50 they will. Often just as you feel you are almost over them. These LOs have an uncanny 6th sense sometimes it feels like. And part of us not having a Plan is that deep inside we are longing for some of these scenarios to happen, and we don’t want to 1) ruin the fantasy of that thing happening or 2) lose the opportunity if it actually happened in real life.
For example, the plan not to initiate contact does not Plan for what if LO initiates contact? If left unPlanned for, the answer will be, well reply! Banter! Try to keep it going for as long as I can! There is a huge hole in that Plan.
Ask yourself: what would you do if LO …? For me, if LO were to ramp up the texting, first of all, I would admit I love it (do not skip this step! To do so is denial). I would absolutely love it. I would suddenly be on the alert: she loves me, she loves me not, she loves me … I will go haywire for a minute. I should Plan not to respond while my circuits are going wild. Anything I do right at this minute will be regrettable. If you have any deprogramming points, it might help to review them after the high, and before the reply. Then I would plan not to banter. I will not be witty. My replies will be mono-syllabic if the question can be answered that way. I will not ask questions that will lead to more conversation. Maybe – and this is radical – plan not to reply at all if it is not strictly necessary to reply. (And by the way, be prepared for LO to go stir crazy if you don’t reply them if they are used to having you on tap. And plan what to do if they start bombing you with messages or manufacture some scenario where you have to reply.)
Some good examples of Planning I have noted:
Someone here when they knew they would be having a hard day during the anniversary of their LO leaving roped their SO in to make sure they did not do anything foolish. That is Planning for success.
Someone else said they would not reach out to their LO when they were feeling particularly vulnerable. That is also Planning for success.
Someone else was planning to be extremely boring – and had clear steps of that that means. That too is Planning for success.
I find all these strategies useful to read about. I can tell they are a slog and un-fun and torturous even. And yet people here choose to do them, with an eye on their greater goal.
Hi Hedge, do you want to have a good laugh? When I used transference to rid myself of the horrible limerent intrusive thoughts, I wrote out a plan. It was detailed. I have it in a secret journal that I keep in a secret place. It included every scenario that I could think of because I really didn’t want to hurt anyone, I just wanted to get LO2 out of my head. I believed my plan would work, and the limerence would only effect me. Here is the funny part, I didn’t anticipate that my new LO would disclose that he was too attracted to me and he couldn’t be my friend anymore. Dang it! That one wasn’t in my plan. I didn’t know what to do. So, yes, we can plan all we want, but the other players go off script in ways we might not expect.
Classic, Lovisa!!!
The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men
Gang aft agley
– Robert Burns
It’s been a while since I just checked in with everyone. Not much to see her in speedy world. It’s pretty boring. Effectively LO and I have no personal relationship anymore, mainly due to me really pulling back into very limited contact where I only really initiate work related interactions with her. Been doing this for about 2 weeks now and it has killed any remaining remnants of friendship we may have had. She will not initiate with me, not even a “how are you?” Or “how is your day?” I used to initiate a lot of those type of personal chit chat with her, but now I’m really going LC and have stopped. I want reciprocation out my relationships and LO is not providing it when I engage. I was actually really frustrated with LO last week because she is going thru a minor health issue, the same that my daughter is also going through. My daughter saw a doctor last week and out of courtesy I texted LO what the doctor said so she would have additional info to make her decisions. We texted back and forth about it for a few minutes as she had some questions and then when all was said I signed off a very pleasant “Have a nice weekend, take care of yourself, get some rest”. She never texted back after that…not a “thank-you” or “have a good weekend also”. She is just like that, socially clueless sometimes. I’m not sure if she is actively trying to avoid me or if she is just so used to following my lead that if I don’t lead she doesn’t care, or maybe she is just that socially introverted. If you start conversation she will engage nicely and become chatty, but never any initiation. Can’t quite figure it out but I do notice she doesn’t make friends with others in the office either so maybe there is a hangup somewhere with her. It’s very odd with her now and somewhat awkward. We used to be so chit chatty and warm with one another and now it’s just…boring. I also have dialed my eye contact way back to the point where I only really glace at her briefly as needed when we interact.
But, with lack of any personal relationship comes no expectations out of her and no let downs so my LE sort of, kind of, maybe stays at bay. It’s grey and blah but stable and I still maintain that is better than the highs and lows. But I am definitely feeling a grief over it, the loss of her attention and affection, what little of it I ever had.
On a positive note, the other woman in my office, the one I am not limerent for but have become closer with is everything I want in a reciprocal friendship. She initiates, she is caring, she is interested in what I’m doing. We text a little during the week, nothing open ended, usually checking in kind of texts that last 10-15 minutes. I don’t get any weird vibes from her and I’m careful not to give off weird vibes, and I think we mutually just really enjoy each others attention. She is a nice distraction from LO. I’ve said this before, 9 out of 10 guys would find her the more attractive woman over LO, but I’m just not into her romantically, I’m the 1 out of 10 that finds LO more attractive. But I’m glad, I don’t want this other woman to become an LO, I respect her too much which might be saying something about how I actually view LO. Hmmm?
I’ll try to check in every couple weeks and see how this progresses and how practicing very strict LC plays out.
Ok, so I spent the evening thinking about the question “what’s keeping me from breaking contact with LO?” aka “what am I getting out of this that keeps me stuck?” As luck would have it, LO called me for a phone chat this afternoon and later texted with me throughout the first part of the evening, and inadvertently helped me come up with my answers. This afternoon, she called me about a quick work thing towards the end of the day that should have been a 2 minute conversation, but half an hour later we were still on the phone talking and laughing and feeling great. And texting in the evening, I was helping her think through a major life decision, and she told me how much she really appreciates me always being such a good friend to her, and I replied “always :)”
I think it really comes down to 2 things – chemistry and obligation.
First off, I just love talking with LO. You could tell me that I would never get to see her again, that there was a 0.00% chance of us ever being together again in real life, not a chance in the world of ever having a physical relationship, and I’d still want to talk with her on the phone every chance I get. Which is weird, because I’m not a big talker in general, and definitely not a big telephone guy, but with her it’s just different.
My psychologist asked me last week why I love talking with LO so much. He asked me what we talked about that was so rewarding. I thought about it for a moment, and then answered “it’s not so much what we talk about, it’s how it feels when we talk. It’s just so free and easy, so natural, so energizing”.
I’m an introvert. I like people, and at some level I crave connection with people, but it doesn’t come easily for me and it comes at a cost. Like Dr. L mentioned in his last blog, unstructured mingling sessions are terrifying to me. Even around people I know and like and feel comfortable with, I still find most conversation to be emotionally draining – after a while, I just need some time alone to recharge the batteries.
That’s the main reason why I used to drink excessively – it temporarily took away my introversion, took away my self-consciousness, and made me feel like I could connect with other people a lot more easily. In fact, I’d been drinking all day when I first met SO – if I’d been sober, I’d have probably been to shy to talk with her. I quit drinking many years ago, and that was mostly a good thing, but I did lose that tool/crutch I used to rely on for social connection.
With LO – it’s just different. I can talk with her for hours and feel energized, not drained. I told my psychologist “that little half-second introvert pause between thought and speech just isn’t there with her. There’s no self-consciousness, no little part of my mind always monitoring to see if the other person is still interested, wondering about what to say next”. With her, conversation just flows, and flows, and flows. It’s like our bond and chemistry is so good that she’s not “other”, she’s somehow inside my normal defense shields. And that feels great, and it’s a hard feeling to give up.
Second, I feel a definite sense of obligation to LO at this point. She’s had a hard life, with few, if any, people in her life who have consistently cared about her and not abandoned her. She group up in a dysfunctional family where both of her parents physically abused her. She’s estranged from her only sibling. She got pregnant in high school and married young, to a guy who told her that he only married her because he got her pregnant and spent the next 20 years being emotionally distant and borderline emotionally abusive before leaving her for another woman. She has no close friends, no other close family.
Fairly early in our relationship, she told me something that’s always stuck with me. She said “you’re just so different than every other guy I’ve ever known. You actually like talking with me. You actually care about the thoughts in my head, about how I’m doing and how my day went. I’ve never had anyone care about me like that”. And it broke my heart to hear her say that, to imagine her going almost 40 years in this world without ever feeling like another person actually cared about her and would actually enjoy just talking with her. Damn.
And it feels really good every time I have the chance to support her in some little way, usually just by listening to her when she’s working through some problem. And when she expresses appreciation for my friendship, that’s a huge reward for me. And the flip side is that if I were to tell her that we were done and I needed us to be NC, after spending the last 6 months telling her that I love her and always want to be there for her, I feel like that would make me just like every other person in her life who walked away from her and abandoned her.
Last month when she asked for NC, it hurt really bad, but at the end of the day I could make peace with it, because it was HER asking to end the relationship and she knew I wasn’t walking away from her. I was able to accept the end of the relationship as long as it ended on those terms, with her deciding it needed to end. I struggle much more to accept the idea of an ending where I’m the one saying it has to end. She’d understand it. She’d accept it. She wouldn’t fight it. If I asked her to leave, she’d leave quietly and without a fuss. But I’d feel like I’d abandoned her.
Summer – here’s a Josh Ritter video for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXBI2_zH9Js
I’m not sure if he actually wrote it about mothers and sons, or if it’s about love affairs where one person outgrows the other one and leaves the relationship once they’ve gotten everything they needed from it, leaving the other person behind. I do know that I cried the first time I watched it, thinking about myself leaving LO behind as I moved on with my life, myself re-animated by our affair and no longer needing what she had to offer me.
So I think those are the two big things that keep me holding on to this relationship – on one hand the joy of having a relationship that just feels so damn good and natural and close, and on the other hand not being able to stomach the thought of hurting LO by being the one to walk away for good. If the relationship ends, I want it to be her leaving me and not the other way around.
LiS,
You are very honest and I have to give you credit for that. But as someone who vividly remembers not telling my wife very big issues, I would not talk about in therapy. There were consequences and 12 years later, I am in love with a LO fantasy and miserable as hell. The fallout never ends.
You seem to have a good wife and decent family. So you have a lot going for you. I don’t want to repeat all of Summers rant yesterday, but are you ready to give that up to LO? And if the roles were reversed, how would feel if the Wife you love, was concealing something like this from you??
Hey Lost in Space, I’ve been trying to put myself in your LO’s shoes as well as your wife’s. I can not predict how they would experience this. I can only give my best guess.
When I try to understand your wife, I keep thinking that if you aren’t turning your heart away from me and you haven’t engaged in sexual contact, I could probably forgive the EA. But keep in mind that my perspective is not typical of most women because I had an EA with LO1 and I am unusually forgiving in general. This is how I think I would feel if my SO disclosed an EA. I would want to know that you are sorry and you want to remain married and you are willing to do whatever it takes to get me through the pain of learning about the EA and to make our family bonds stronger. I would want honesty but not details. I would want to believe that I am the most important woman in your life. I would also like to believe that you think I am the most beautiful woman in the world (I know that is a tall order). If you decide to disclose to your SO, it might be wise to lean on your marriage counselor while you two process what happened and what to do going forward. I don’t know if you should disclose without help from a pro.
When I put myself in your LO’s shoes, I think if I knew how much I was distressing you, I would want NC. But it is a little tricky with her because I think she is leaning on you a lot more than I ever leaned on any of my LOs. I think she instinctively knows that she is getting her emotional needs met through you and that is a hard thing to walk away from. But I think she is a descent woman and would not want to cause the distress she is causing. Also, your comments imply that you feel kind of trapped. I don’t think she would want that either. Would I want my LO to be my “friend” because of chemistry and obligation? No, I wouldn’t like that. If chemistry motivated him, that makes me feel kind of dirty, like my sexuality is the only thing I contribute to the relationship. If obligation was his motivation, I would feel like a charity case. I like to believe that my LO3 gets training ideas from me and general support like friends provide. I like to believe that my LO2 gets an honest female perspective from a friend who genuinely cares about him and his family. One time, he thought he was being scammed by a woman on LinkedIn and he felt safe to talk to me about it so he could get a female perspective without upsetting his wife. I’m glad I could do that for him. I hope that makes sense.
I hope my comment is helpful and not hurtful. I can’t predict what would happen if you ended things with LO or if you disclosed to SO. I’m not recommending either. I feel like this must be your decision. And if I had to guess which woman I relate to better, it would be your LO. I don’t know what it is like to be a betrayed spouse except that I’ve seen women who were close to me go through it and I am honestly surprised by the spectrum of reactions. Some are more forgiving than others. I can’t predict your wife’s level of forgiveness and I’m not convinced that her past reaction is a predictor of future behavior either. I know your last disclosure was rough. I don’t know that this would be the same or better or worse. I just don’t know.
Take my words with a grain of salt. I could be way off base. Best wishes!
I welcome feedback from the others especially if you see some big errors in what I’ve written. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Lost in Space is in a difficult position and I only want to help.
LiS
I can feel you on that last paragraph and your feelings bout NC or ending the relationship in some way yourself. I didn’t have to face that. LO did it for me. With grace and kindness. She didn’t have to tell me she was quitting. She could have easily sneaked out and never had to face me. And I know from the phone call she made to tell me and on her last day she knew something about the way I felt about her. And yet she faced what she thought might have been an awkward or embarrassing encounter depending on my behavior.
She valved whatever kind of relationship she consider ours to be enough to tell me she was leaving. She let me spend a day with her. She introduced me to her daughters. She let me be a part of her life for the time I did. I think if LO hadn’t left the limerence could have very likely lead to an EA, even if it was one sided.
I get being afraid of loosing a relationship. My anxious insecure attachment is devastated when someone leaves me life. Even my other female co-worker that left back in April; I miss her too. She also has not made an initiative to contact me. I texted her once back when he had tornadoes touching down and wanted to make sure her and her family were safe. This is why I am keeping the two young ladies that work here at arm’s length till I can get my $hit together in regards to my relationships. Especially women apparently. Both in person and online.
In the end it may come to a choice that comes down to LO or SO. If LO hadn’t made that choice for me, I could try to empathize with your situation. But I can’t since I didn’t have to make that choice. Hoping the best for you and your trail of limerence.
Lovisa-
I’ve missed chatting with you! I think (as usual) you have good advice for LIS. I do worry that his wife would not be as forgiving. I also have been glad to hear that LIS’s marriage has been getting better over the last month… but just a few months ago they seemed to be in a rocky place. This is very tricky. I think (and I am also speaking to you, LIS) if you fully are ready to end things with you LO (I’m not sure you are) and you want to make sure you never fall into limerence again with another woman- THEN I would start talking to your personal therapist about if it made sense to tell your wife- OR what you will do if she finds out (because we all know she could definitely find out on her own.)
LIS-
I’ve been thinking about your recent emails all day. Unfortunately, life is crazy at the moment with end of the year activities, but I didn’t want to disappear again. Please excuse any “rants” 😂 You know my messages come from a good place.
Here are my main thoughts. You have a bit of a savior complex with LO. This seems very typical of people here on LWL, especially men. I know we have all talked about this many times- Adam has had come insightful comments, etc. What I would say to that is- it’s not really your place to save her. She needs to find someone she can rely on that isn’t married and is in a position to have an honest, open relationship. Ideally, she would be in a mutually supportive relationship where she also gets to be the savior sometimes. I can’t imagine she really wants to be the perpetual damsel in distress. On the flip side- I can see how that would be make you feel great, but is this something you are going to want for the long run?
Second- You say you have great chemistry (please take this the right way) but OF COURSE you have great chemistry. Most people who are in a mutually limerent EA have great chemistry. Not only do you get along, find each other interesting, but you are getting a massive dopamine hit on a regular bases. One the of the reasons you have great chemistry is that you are literally altering your internal brain chemistry.
On top of that, the cycle of do they, don’t they just makes all the feelings more intense. Every time you make up, get back in touch, get a warm text- it feels amazing. But… and I am going to be a real brat here and you quote YOU-
“And you know what? They all f*cking suck. They’ve all caused tons of anxiety and grief and pain and shame and have all taken over my life while they lasted and caused me to miss out on lots of good stuff and do lots of stupid stuff.”
Do you really want this in your life? I think you need a better reason than you have good chemistry and you want to help LO.
On another note- I know you love your wife, want to be faithful and want to spend the rest of your life with her. I was mainly asking because I think you need to be fully honest about what your desires are about LO. There is that good post about why it’s impossible to be “friends.” I worry that if you try to have a boundaries relationship, you will end up slipping into the limerent cycle again and again.
Ok. That is enough tough love! As always, I admire how honest you are and how willing you are to talk about yourself. The way you describe your wife is truly beautiful. Thank you for the Josh Ritter link! I love his music.
On a personal note, I have really been missing my LO. Last spring, we were totally in the midst of our EA and everything feels like a memory right now. I just miss him so much. So thanks for writing back and being so thoughtful in your responses. It has helped me stay focused on my own “recovery.”
Although I have been thinking I may need a pep talk… 🙁 Heading out for a quick run before the dinner madness begins!
Wow Summer! I admire how you quoted Lost in Space back to him. I think he will appreciate it, too. Very impressive… and ballsy… lol
It’s so good to have you here, but I understand that you are busy. That time when you listed your responsibilities left me tired just thinking about it.
Enjoy your run!
Lovisa- Oh no. I feel like you disapprove… am I being to harsh?
I’ve been struggling with my own intrusive thoughts. Maybe I am projecting my own sadness (and frustration with limerence) onto LIS. :/
I hear you aren’t running. Is it the old injury that is flaring up again? Will you still be able to hike this summer? I really hope so. I have a big hiking trip (3 weeks out west) coming up with my SO while our kids are at sleep away camp. I’m pretty excited. Hoping to bag at least one 14er- but we’ll see. Last time we were thwarted by weather.
Anyway- it is very good hearing from you!
Hi Summer,
Definitely not too harsh. I’m sorry I gave you that impression. I think you are balancing tough love and compassion very well. Sorry if I sounded disapproving. I am not. I think your response was brilliant. I hope Lost in Space and his LO are doing okay.
I’m sorry your limerence is giving you stress right now. I hope you can find relief. It would be so hard to have the seasons remind you of the EA highs from last year. But it sounds like you are doing the right thing anyway which is commendable.
I have a new injury. (I’m glad this website is anonymous.) Last week, while I was trail running, I fell and landed on my right, upper girl part. I also scraped up my face. I am swollen and bruised. It hurts even to move my right arm. I’m quite pathetic. But I saw a doctor today and he thinks I didn’t damage anything important. I can’t do high impact exercises for a month and there is no way to do strength training on my right side. They recommend that I don’t even go for walks if I don’t have to, but I can’t stop cold turkey. I’m still training for my 50-miler. I set my treadmill to the max incline and 2.5 mph which got my heart rate up without jostling my owies too much. I think I can get my mileage this way. I also walked the trail where I fell because I don’t want to develop a fear of trail running. I walked it while holding my right upper girl part. It’s so pathetic. But that is the only way to ease the pain. Me and my silly injuries. This is my first trauma injury, the others were from overuse. I have been so careful to avoid overuse injuries and I honestly wasn’t expecting a trauma injury. I am rolling my eyes at myself.
That hiking trip without kids sounds exciting! I’m so happy for you and your SO. A 14-mile hike sounds like heaven to me. I would love to know what trails you’re planning to explore if you feel like sharing. Last year, SO and I had our first vacation without kids. We went to Kanab, Utah. My favorite trail was Coyote Buttes South. It was pure heaven! You have to get a permit which are very limited. We didn’t see anyone else the whole day. We had like 1200 acres of beautiful landscape to ourselves. And the road to get there is really something. My SO looked like a boy on Christmas morning when he got to drive that road. He was so happy. I would love to go back there someday.
It’s so good to hear from you. I appreciate your voice of warning for Lost in Space. You said it better than I could. I also appreciate the article you shared with Emily.
Happy trails!
Hi LIS-
Sorry if I overstepped. No more tough love from this part of the internet. 🙂
Tough love is what a lot of us limerents need. And Marcia and you are good at it. And this particular limerent thanks you both.
Ahhh. Adam- You’re the best. BTW- your post about loving gray hair was probably my all time favorite comment on LWL. You really make me smile.
It seems like you have been doing really well! Also- lots of good advice coming from you. 🙂 What a journey this has been!
Summer, stop second guessing yourself. You did a good thing. You were helpful. I think when Lost in Space gets back he will agree that the things you said were helpful.
Lost in Space is not remotely offended by anything anyone wrote today. Lost in Space just had a super busy day today and couldn’t respond until now. Lost in Space appreciates the tough love, and more than that, he’s pretty blown away by the fact that you all care so much about his situation to put so much thought into your responses.
Enough 3rd person…
I had a ton of LO contact today, like texting each other all day long and talking on the phone twice. And big news – she got a job offer with another organization! And we were spending most of the day discussing it and going over all the pros and cons, and she decided to accept it. The start date is a little uncertain, but it could be as late as September or as early as July.
And the funny thing is, I just felt so happy and excited for her! It’s a great job that’s going to make her feel really good about herself (it involves working with foster kids, and she has a really big heart for kids) and she’s going to be wonderful at it and make a big difference for the kids she’ll serve. I’m just legitimately thrilled for her. I wasn’t filled with despair about her leaving, nor relief about escaping my situation – all I could think about how was excited I was for her opportunity.
And she also told me a couple things about her relationship with her SO improving and some positive experiences they’ve had together recently, and I could mostly feel happy for that too (mixed with some feelings of jealousy, I won’t lie). They’re still a long ways from being totally ok together, but they’re getting better. It really would probably be best for her if they can reconcile – they’ve been together since they were in high school, he’s the father of her kids, and I know she really does still love him and in her heart she wants it to work out. And it sounds like he’s genuinely working on his own issues as well and trying to improve himself.
And I told her some stuff about how good me and my SO are doing, and about my SO doing well with her own mental health, and LO seemed genuinely happy to hear all of that as well. I think for the most part, we’ve really come to accept that we’re never going to be lovers, and we can actually root for each other to find success and happiness even if it doesn’t involve being with each other.
Is a crash coming? I don’t know. Probably. Maybe. Maybe not. I really don’t know. Right now if I sit and imagine us staying friendly with boundaries for the next month or two and then her leaving, that feels ok to me (whereas a couple months ago the mere thought of her leaving brought me to tears). Will it still feel ok as the date gets closer? When it actually happens?
Can we keep things in check for the next couple of months and avoid any more cycles of escalation and breakup? I sure hope so… We definitely had too much contact yesterday and today. I’m gonna try to take a break from her tomorrow. I’d really like things to stay friendly and smooth without the ups and downs, and that’s going to take careful active management…
Now that today’s news is out of the way, I wanted to try to respond to a few individual points:
– I have no intention of disclosing to SO. My therapist agrees 100% that I should not. There’s no upside. Nothing would get better by me disclosing. On the other hand it would bring tremendous pain to SO and I think there’s a real chance it would end our marriage. I need to just ride out the last couple months of proximity to LO without doing anything stupid, and then let the relationship die out naturally once she leaves, and SO never needs to know about any of it.
– I think Summer nailed it about the chemistry issue, that of course the chemistry feels amazing because we’re literally in an altered state. And that’s why I was making the comparison to how drinking alcohol used to make me feel more socially connected. The drug of limerence has the same effect of making all of my interactions with LO feel free and easy and sparkling, because essentially she is the drug.
– I feel like maybe I misrepresented the obligation thing a little bit. I don’t want to give the impression that she’s a sad sack damsel in distress always crying on my shoulder while I get to play knight in shining armor. She’s actually very strong and independent and does not want to be in the damsel in distress role at all. Until our relationship got really deep, I didn’t know any of the really sad stuff about her life – pity or sympathy was never the basis for our relationship. She’s never wanted me to help her with anything and has resisted the few times I’ve tried. The only things she seems to want from me are advice when she’s making big decisions, and mostly just to be someone that she enjoys talking and laughing with. And I don’t want to give the impression that she’s a “charity case” and that our relationship is super one-sided. She gives me great advice and a woman’s perspective that helps me be a better husband, and parenting advice that makes me a better dad. She makes me smile and makes me laugh and makes me think and teaches me things. I get a lot from her as well.
But… I do still have that feeling of obligation to not be the one to walk out on her, for the reasons I described last time. I know I can’t rescue her or save her, but I also don’t want to abandon her as long as it seems that she’s clearly getting something important out of our relationship. I do feel strongly that I want to be a consistent, positive presence in her life for as long as she wants me to be. If she gets to a point where she’s really getting the support she needs from her SO and she’s happy with her new job and with school and maybe even making other friends and just generally doing great in life, then I think I’ll feel like my role in her life has been fulfilled and then I can bow out. Until then, to be perfectly honest, I just can’t imagine myself cutting us off completely – I might have to tap the brakes sometimes if it feels like things are getting out of control, but I can’t just stop and throw her out of the car.
I still think that the most ideal outcome for this whole experience would be that our relationship ends naturally because she leaves the workplace, gets busy with a fulfilling new life, both of us end up better off because of the time we spent together (better internally, better in our own actual SO relationships), and our SOs never know a thing about it. I actually feel like that’s an achievable outcome with careful management. Am I deluding myself?
Hi LIS-
I’m glad you weren’t offended! (I was worried.) Well, I read your message over coffee this morning, and now I am just get back to you past my bedtime. It has been one of those days.
“Am I deluding myself.”
Maybe. What I worry about the most is that I do think you are going to have a crash. I think it will be horrible and harder than you know. You two were NC, but it wasn’t for that long. Maybe a month or so? I worry that you are seriously underestimating how low you might feel, and the longer you two play at the limerent cycle, the harder the inevitable end will be.
It doesn’t surprise me that you are very happy for her about exciting job news. It is easy to be happy when you are connecting, talking, texting all day about her new job. You feel close to her right now, her life is happy and you are a part of that happiness. Big dopamine hit! Also, you have been feeling close to her without having to feel guilty that you are crossing a line with inappropriate conversations or actions. (Although I do wonder how your wife would feel if she knew you were discussing her mental health status with LO?)
My point is- it makes sense to me that things are feeling great right now. The problem is- your LO is not your friend. She is never going to be your friend. You have experienced intense MUTUAL limerence with her. I don’t think you are going to move past that. Ever. I don’t think any amount of planning and boundaries is going to change the chemistry you feel with her.
Could you get to a point where you continue to be close, but never act on the feelings in physical way. Maybe.
But how long can this go on? I haven’t really talked that much about my EA on this site- I’m working up to it- but I lived in constant worry that my husband would figure something out. I was distant. I would constantly check my phone to see if LO had texted, even when I needed to be fully present with my family. It wasn’t great behavior, and he was doing the same thing on his end. There is just no way he was going to be in my life, and I wasn’t going to obsessed with him. At least, not under the circumstances of us both being VERY happily married. Ironically, if we had a physical affair I think we would have had a better chance of moving past our infatuation for each other.
And here’s my bigger point- at some point my husband or his wife would have figured something out. My husband knows me too well. My husband really, really gets me. He would have figured it out.
At some point something was going to crash. In my case, my LO disclosed and then went NC. I mean- really went NC. Never once responded to me, and we were having a full on limerent EA- and are also exs that had a torrid, torrid, torrid love affair back in the day. So to go NC must have taken him considerable effort.
I am super grateful that he refuses to talk to me, and at this point we have been NC for long enough that I do not think that I will contact him again. But it HURT like HELL. It still comes in waves. I never- not in a million years- would have thought that I would still have him in my mind frequently throughout the day months later. (Although he is not on my mind ALL the time, which is a huge improvement.)
Sorry- I am rambling. Back to you. I think you are setting yourself up for more pain in the long run. Probably for the two of you. I don’t think this is going to end well or transition easily. I don’t think you are doing right by her by continuing this relationship, even though I am sure it feels like you are supporting her.
But look. I could be wrong. Am I projecting my own experiences onto you. Yup. I would love to be wrong. I would love for her to finish out these few months and just have a gentle exit.
One thing to think about is stepping outside of this particular relationship for the moment and ask yourself- what is the work I need to do? Like if Adam needs to address why he has a savior complex in order to move forward (sorry Adam- not saying that’s the case, just using it as an example) What do you need to look at, LIS, to move past having EA with unavailable women? Because you have identified that this is not the first time this problem has come up. I think I would start there and try not to focus on the particulars of your relationship with LO.
Last point- damsel is distress… But here’s thing- wouldn’t you agree that nothing is sexier than a strong, competent, beautiful women who only reveals to you her weaknesses? You is solid to the rest of the world, but lets you be the special person in her life. The more I think about it, the more I realize what a problem it is that she has told you that you are the only person that has stood by her. You are the only person in her life she can rely on. Etc. Etc. Fuel to the fire.
And maybe that’s true… and maybe it’s not entirely true. You know her- but you know her through limerent eyes. It is hard to be objective. It’s possible there are other things going on for her. She sounds lovely. Charming and charismatic. Sometimes that’s great! Sometimes that is a red flag. You could see her as someone who is equally suffering and longing for her unattainable LO. Or you could see her as someone is has been pretty manipulative with all the hot and cold. All the flirting, flirting, flirting and then boundaries!
I can relate. There is something very alluring about powerful, successful, (sometimes narcissistic) men who reveal their inner demons and insecurities. When I look back at my twenties, I can confidently say that was my type right there. Surprise, surprise- it was something I needed to grow out of!
I’m not trying to put your LO down (or at least- not really.) I’m sure she’s great. Well, I’m sure she is great and also not always great because she is human. But since you are the person we are concerned with on this site- I really am focused on what’s best for you and your family. Make sense?
Ok- Sorry for the discombobulated message. Please excuse typos and lack of editing. I’m headed to bed!
Hi LIS
I just want to check on you. I guess I’m looking for hope. I recently disclosed to LO (I know I said there is not way I’ll ever do SO due to him being the dismissive avoidance). I did because the tension was so high during our meeting. The “accidental” hand touches increased and the length as well. I felt guilty/ashamed after our meeting. I called him and first thing I said is sorry (not knowing his feelings yet) and that I admit I have feelings toward him that I can’t control but I’m hoping I can control my actions and have a boundary of no touch! I asked him if he had any feelings, to my shock he said yes since September (which is way before the glimmer ugh)!!! Here I am feeling like I led him on this whole time. I asked him how can not show it though, what’s his secret? He said he sucks at showing feelings in general (it’s true). I asked if I did anything to lead him on in which he answered no. He also asked if there anything he could do to help. He said it’s his first time feeling that way since he got married 25 years ago!!!! And it’s my first since I got married 15 years ago. He did agree on having the No touch boundary and I promised to deal with my feelings (by seeking therapy)!!! It all felt really good like I’m not losing my mind here imagining stuff specially being the rational scientist I am. Now almost a week later, we had texts here and there (mostly TikToks) but now I’m crashing really bad. I though him reciprocating will kill the limerence. I’m not even sure it’s limerence for him (he said it has been on and off since the fall). I just had my first dream/nightmare yesterday that he’s being really mean to me in-front of a coworker we don’t like. This ruined my whole day. I’m looking for hope that I’ll feel better soon. For now I’m trying the no initiating text thing (he rarely initiates so its LC in a way). I am also trying to convince myself that it’s okay to live with low dopamine. I’m a runner like you but my run has been so bad recently I think due to limerence. Still lost as you can see!!!!
Hi L&C – thanks for the update! Your disclosure story sounds pretty similar to mine – with us, the feelings and sexual tension had gotten so high it just felt impossible not to say anything, and after I told LO about my feelings I asked her about hers and, similar to your case, she told me that she’d actually had feelings for me for quite a long time. We also talked about barriers during that conversation.
You indicated it’s been about a week since disclosure and you’ve kept your contact pretty limited since then. It’ll be interesting to see how the next few weeks and months play out. In my case, our self-imposed LC didn’t last very long at all, as we were both so hungry for contact with each other that we quickly blew off the barriers – that’s when things actually reached their most dangerous point, when for a few weeks we were talking and texting and hugging constantly but now we both knew how the other one felt, and we got right to the brink of launching into a PA and had all kinds of crazy conversations about stuff like whether we’d actually leave our spouses for each other. And then we cut contact again and it was the worst feeling of my life, and then a week later we got back into contact but with more barriers, and then the feelings escalated again so that a month later we were again discussing a PA, and then we cut contact again and it felt even worse than before… and most recently after about a month of LC we started talking again a few weeks ago but we’re not flirting or talking about our feelings at all and trying to just act like friends and trying to keep things from escalating again.
So essentially, I’d say that disclosure did not decrease my limerence at all, and actually made it much worse. If we’d both been single, disclosure would have surely led to an intense relationship that may or may not have lasted. Or if I’d disclosed and she’d told me that she didn’t share any of my feelings, I probably could have started getting over it. But knowing that she shared all of my feelings and desires and being unable to have the kind of relationship we wanted, but also both of us being unwilling to go totally NC, that left us in a highly charged space that just fueled worsening limerence. The last 6 months has been the biggest emotional rollercoaster of my life for sure. And honestly it hasn’t been all bad and I truly can say a lot of good things have come out of it, but good Lord the lows sure were low!
I think my hope for you would be that you can stay with very limited contact with your LO, or maybe even find a new job if that’s an option without sacrificing too much, and that you can get into personal therapy and also really lean into your relationship with your SO. Or if LC just isn’t realistic for you and your LO, I’d hope that you’d be able to have a really frank discussion with him to define what kind or relationship you and him will have. I had a series of discussions like that with my LO – basically I told her that I’d never leave my wife for her and that I’d never have a physical affair with her, but that I wanted to maintain a close and affectionate emotional relationship with her. And for awhile that kinda worked, and then that got to be too much for her and she pulled out, and then we kinda renegotiated the terms and now we’re back to having a close but not so openly affectionate relationship and that seems to be working for now. I suspect that there will be further discussions and renegotiations over time, but at least our communication is usually pretty open and direct, and neither one of us is into intentionally screwing with the other person’s head or leading the other person on. It sounds like it’s probably the same with you and your LO – from what you’ve written, it doesn’t sound like he’s a player or a narcissist or a manipulator or anything like that.
Best of luck to you! Keep in touch!
Thank you LIC. It’s basically LC because of his dismissive personality. His replies can be cold and hot so whenever I feel like texting him I remember how underwhelming his replies can be (he’s 47ish and not big on texting). Actually he used to take forever to reply even when it’s work related but not anymore. I can tell he’s just waiting for me to text but then he gets cold. I’m tired of putting so much effort and him not intiating. I even mentioned that to him but he’s so gentle (in general) that he hates bothering me (a little too much) I think. Anyways, I think we need an in person discussion to define our relationship . I did say if any thing to happen between us, I won’t be able to forgive myself and won’t want to lose our friendship, in which he replied that we have a beautiful friendship ( we do, he’s funny and creative. I’m too! Which allowed us to really excel at work).
NC/LC is possible since I’m only part time ( the job works so well with my kids schedule. I need an amazing offer to justify quitting. I also need my limerent brain to cooperate). He’s so far from being a bad guy. He’s actually very shy/introverted …a big nerd. I’m a nerd as well just with better social skills. I also did mention how religion is a big barrier and our kids (he loves his kids so much). We didn’t get as far as talking about leaving SO as the whole conversation was so difficult specially for nerds.
I think the points you mentioned are very important indeed. Even if I leave SO ( our marriage was never a success due to a rapid love story, his temper was always a problem. I found myself discussing divorce constantly then backing up when he begs/apologize). He also had few cancers over the year which turned me into his nurse (a role I didn’t enjoy). Even if I do leave SO, it won’t work with LO due to the religion part, his family, we live in two different countries (neighbors still 😉). He is a great dad to his kids (I actually wish SO would be that way, he is also so calm and in control something I also wish SO has) but I’m not sure he would like my kids . It’s like I discovered exactly what I’m looking for in a partner. I’m not sure though I would like him being dismissive and not show feelings of we’re together . I’m also not sure about his appearance, I mean he’s cute but older and short (it used to be a deal breaker for me). I’m so lost! It sucks…. I don’t know why from all the stories I read here you’re the only one I relate to (specially when you said you’re an accomplished Doctor and you are falling for this. We’re both accomplished phds, I’m a tall athletic lady and I’m falling for him) this doesn’t make any sense. He does have a great personality…. I think it should be possible to keep it a friendship with him being so dismissive and with us successfully doing so since October. Only time can tell. I need to definitely get into therapy due to a very rough upbringing. If you don’t mind me asking, what’s an affectionate emotional relationship? Like what rules did you guys have to abide by? Also I keep thinking how if we have another discussion, it’s going to be awkward again (he’s not big on talking, great listener though) what questions should I ask that will help clear the future?
I hope I’m not trying to transfer my limerence to you ha! I’ll keep in touch… you do too.
Hi L&C! I think this LE is going to serve as a catalyst for you to really examine a lot of things in your life – your relationship with your SO, your relationship with LO, and most importantly your relationship with yourself.
First SO – sounds like you guys have some pretty serious problems if you’ve been talking about divorce for awhile. Is this LE the catalyst to do something you’ve actually known you need to do for a long time and move to end the marriage? Or is the marriage still salvageable and are there steps you can take to make it better? In my case, even in the worst of my limerence I realized I still love my SO very much and our marriage was definitely worth saving despite the issues we were having at that time. That may be the same for you or it may not be.
Regarding your LO, it sounds like you recognize that you don’t truly see a long term future with him as a partner. He has many traits that you find really appealing, but it also sounds like even if you ended your marriage, you’d be unlikely to find happily ever after with LO. Primarily, it sounds like he’s still committed to his marriage, so that’s basically the end of the fantasy right there, but even if he was available as well, there would be other big issues like differences in religion, you not getting what you need from him emotionally due to his dismissive/avoidant style, and basic issues of physical attraction.
But your feelings toward LO can be very instructive for learning what you do require from a partner. Someone calm, someone caring and attentive, a devoted father. Maybe you can work with your SO to bring those things out in him. Or maybe you realize you need those things and your SO will never be able to provide them, and that leads you to end the marriage and then eventually look for a truly suitable partner with the traits you need to be happy.
Knowing that you and LO will never actually be romantic partners in real life, then what do you want with him? Can you maintain a friendly relationship without deep emotions? Do you want an emotional affair where you openly share love and affection with each other through words but don’t have any physical contact? Or would any of those possibilities be too unsatisfying and painful in the long run and you’re better off going LC and avoiding any deepening of your feelings and bonds with him?
Finally, and most importantly, what can this LE teach you about yourself? What does LO bring out in you that you like? Are you a different person when you’re with him? Does he awaken parts of you that have been dormant for a long time, or that you never even knew were in you? For me, I really liked the person I was around LO – that person was passionate, romantic, creative, funny, tender, caring. But as my psychologist always points out, LO didn’t create any of that in me – it was already inside of me and she just helped bring it back to the surface. Now I’m working to integrate those things back into my whole self and into my marriage with SO. Once you’ve identified what aspects of yourself this LE is calling you to nourish, then you can work on how to nourish them on your own, without depending on LO to bring them out of you. This is where work with a good therapist will really be helpful.
Sorry Lost and Confused, I neglected to answer your question “If you don’t mind me asking, what’s an affectionate emotional relationship? Like what rules did you guys have to abide by?”
Our relationship and our rules/boundaries have gone through several iterations as we’ve figured things out as we’ve gone along. At first, our rules were just about discretion and not getting caught – no texting outside of work hours (so SO wouldn’t see a text and get suspicious), act normal around co-workers so no one would gossip. But then we almost fell into a PA and we recognized that we needed more rules to protect ourselves from ourselves, so we stopped ever being alone together and only texted and talked on the phone. But we were still being really open about our feelings – I’m kinda the opposite of your LO, I’m an anxious attachment type and I had a constant need to tell LO how I felt about her and hear how she felt about me. We’d send romantic texts, send each other music videos of romantic songs, I’d even record myself singing love songs to her and send them, I’d tell her how much I loved her… and then her feelings got out of control and she was too tempted to start a PA so she asked me to stop doing anything romantic. And then we had some time when we talked pretty rarely and it was pretty strained when we did, and then she asked to go NC and I thought for sure that was just the end and had pretty much come to accept that I’d never talk to her again except for professional work interactions, but then a few weeks ago she got back in contact and wanted to resume a relationship which massively took me by surprise but I was pretty happy about it.
So for the past few weeks, we’re in the latest version of our relationship. We’re texting every day and talking on the phone a couple times a week, and she’s even come and sat in my office and chatted a couple of times, but we aren’t touching each other at all and aren’t explicitly talking about our feelings for each other – but by now we know each other really well so we have plenty of little ways to let the other one know we still care without explicitly saying “I love you”. And a lot of our interaction is friendly banter and joking around and just making each other smile and laugh, and a lot of it is being involved in each others lives and keeping up on everything we’re doing, and some of it is talking about challenging things we’re going through and giving emotional support – so on the surface it’s like we’re just good friends who like each other a lot, but of course we both know that there’s a lot more feelings under the surface.
Can it stay like this for long? I don’t know. Probably not. I’m probably going to butcher this analogy because it’s been a long time since I took a chemistry class, but I want to say that whenever we’re actively engaged in a relationship with each other, it’s like we’re atoms in an ionized state which is unstable and can’t exist that way for long without either returning to a stable state or bonding with another ion to form a new molecule (but that’s not quite right is it? I’m trying to talk nerd to impress you but I’m not quite smart enough to pull it off 🤣). But anyway, I think you get the point I’m trying to make – we’re trying to exist in this state where we can enjoy all the good things about a relationship with each other without any of the bad things, and it’s really hard to walk that fine line, but for whatever reason I’m trying my best to do it and find the perfect spot of being warm and friendly and funny and supportive but not so anxious or overbearing that it drives her away, and also not so romantic or inviting that I draw her too close. It feels like an impossible task, but for the past month it’s actually been going pretty darn good and honestly I don’t see myself trying to do anything different at least until the fall when she’s leaving our workplace for good. I’m still hoping that we can just continue like this for 2 more months and then naturally drift apart when we’re no longer working together.
LIC, your reply made me LOL!! I so needed to read it this morning as mornings seem to be the hardest for me. It used to be so easy for me to get out of bed and go for a run or start my day (A type here). Not anymore, limerence sucks!!! So, we obviously texted back and forth after him reaching out about running. He sent me a screenshot of his app graph and how it’s not flat, few hours later I recognized it wasn’t flat because he logged a walk back and told him so. He sent me “can’t fool you :)”, I replied with a TikTok of SO saying it’s stupid how he can’t fool me (I wasn’t sure how he would take it; I always send TikTok but this time it’s SO – honestly didn’t think much of it) … No replies after that. I sent a meme today and deleted it before he can see it (he will still see that I deleted it, but he never asks when I delete messages).
I’m using an addiction app to not initiate texting; I didn’t want to ruin my streak and also my anxiety was so bad that didn’t want the dopamine high/low anymore!… We’re meeting in person for the first time since disclosure next week, and that is causing me enough anxiety.
“That’s a tough one. I imagine that would be really hard to live with, and hard to have your kids live with. I’m curious about this issue. Do you fear for you and your kids’ safety when he loses his temper? Is this an every day thing or is it rare? Is he aware that it’s a problem and is he committed to working on it in good faith? Also, was this always his way or did it change after his cancer diagnoses? I can imagine that being diagnosed with cancer at a young age could be pretty traumatic and could affect someone in a lot of ways. Has he sought therapy to deal with this trauma? Have you and him done any couples therapy together?”
It’s once or twice a year since we met. He’s anxiously attached so whenever he feels I might leave, he loses it. I don’t per say fear for my safety or the kids (he never hurt the kids) but he did physically hurt me before. We had a big fight recently and after him begging, he promised if this happens again, he’ll initiate divorce. He believes I should go to therapy as I struggle with depression and had a really rough childhood (I recently told him about the depression, so I don’t have to explain limerence). He doesn’t believe he needs therapy or marriage counseling. Cancer was traumatic, but he’s a big nerd that he overanalyzes everything and thinks that he can be his own therapist.
“That’s one of the good sides of limerence, in that it can awaken parts of ourselves that we’ve lost over the years. Now the question going forward is how do you continue to nourish those traits in yourself without relying on LO to bring them out? Remember, LO didn’t create anything in you that wasn’t there already, he just helped bring it to the surface. This is an area where I think working with a good therapist or psychologist can be really helpful”
True. I really need to get to therapy. I’m struggling finding the right therapist due to me psychoanalyzing everything and everyone. Also, I have hard time opening up in general.
“Haha I’m 42 years old but my garmin says that my fitness age is 20. I still have most of my own hair (and I’m taking pills to keep from losing it 🤣). I’m 6’3” with an athletic physique. My mom says I’m handsome AND smart 😊. I’m a devoted and fun loving dad – most evenings involve me roughhousing with my toddlers and then playing saxophone duets with my older son after the littles go to bed. I’m pretty laid back and calm and rarely lose my temper, unless it’s necessary like if some health plan administrator is trying to deny an important treatment for one of my patients. I live in the US and I’m guessing you live somewhere in Europe? Go ahead and transfer away! If it helps, I can even add fuel by sometimes responding immediately to your messages and other times waiting a few days 🤣. Maybe I’ll even transfer back 😘”
So, this really made me chuckle. I felt relieved that I can finally take a joke from another man in a year and not compare you to LO.
Honestly, limerence with you is dangerous. I got lucky my LO is avoidant (which makes me angry) and he’s short (5’8) and not athletic (used to play hockey but not anymore). If I ever need to focus on the negatives, there are plenty….
On the other hand, you’re dangerous. Tall, handsome, full head of hair (LO’s hair is one of his best features), 42 I’m 38, LO is 47, SO is 42. And most importantly a loving dad!!!
The problem we both live in the US, so yeah this could be really dangerous…. And most importantly, you can cause me pain by being hot and cold, can you also when I send you an article, send me one back with a related title without reading the one I sent because you have ADHD and you’re awkward!!!! Also, can you try googling the new texting lingo to impress me 😉 Anyways, thank you for the distraction. Addiction can be really hard. I’m trying to come here so I don’t initiate texting!
Hi Lost & Confused 😊
Do I understand this right? Your LO texted you some banter shortly after disclosure, and you responded with a TikTok video of your SO saying he was stupid? Bold move!! I think if my LO had done that, I almost certainly would have taken it as a “back off, buddy”. So maybe that was really good boundary enforcement! Or maybe I’m misunderstanding. Either way, it’ll be interesting to see if your LO initiates any more texting for awhile!
You said you’re going to have your first in person meeting with your LO since the disclosure 😬 What’s the context of the meeting? Will it just be the two of you alone or will it be among a group of people? What’s your strategy? Do you plan to address things directly or just act friendly but like nothing happened? Do you want to explicitly talk about boundaries?
Again, sounds like a hard situation with your SO. It’s hard to hear “I don’t have a problem, you just need to do therapy”. That said, the only person you can control is yourself, so don’t let that be a barrier to finding your own therapist – it’ll help you out regardless of what SO does or doesn’t do. I was a therapy-resistor for many years, and now I love it.
“On the other hand, you’re dangerous. Tall, handsome, full head of hair (LO’s hair is one of his best features), 42 I’m 38, LO is 47, SO is 42. And most importantly a loving dad!!!
The problem we both live in the US, so yeah this could be really dangerous….”
Hmm, my LO is also 38. I’d say 38 is a good age for LOs. I don’t actually know if I’m handsome – my mom and my SO and my LO say so, and some of my patients tell me I’m handsome too, but that’s usually right before they ask me to prescribe them some narcotics 🤣. And I don’t want to give the impression that I have great hair (I would never want to misrepresent myself on an anonymous Internet forum, that would be abhorrent behavior) but it’s alright. I think my best features are kind eyes and a good smile. My LO has told me a lot how much she likes my smile – I’m pretty sure it’s her favorite physical feature of mine.
I’m curious now about where you live – you said previously that you and your LO worked together but lived in different countries so I assumed somewhere in Europe where the countries are all tiny and close together. But then you said you live in the US, so that means your LO is either in Canada or Mexico, but you said he played hockey so I’m kinda leaning towards Canada 🤣. Is this like a Buffalo/Toronto thing? Or Vancouver/Bellingham? Or am I totally off? Don’t worry, I don’t live close to any of those places, and I’ll never tell you any identifying information about myself. I mean, there’s like 330 million people in the US… You know I’m a doctor, but there are approximately 1,073,616 doctors in the US, so I still feel pretty secure in my anonymity.
Besides… it could never work out between us. You run in the morning?!? Good lord no. I am not and never will be a morning person. I am distinctly a night person. Basic incompatibility right there! Of course, you could always just tell yourself that surely I’d change for you… 😘
-LiS
Hi LIS
“Do I understand this right? Your LO texted you some banter shortly after disclosure, and you responded with a TikTok video of your SO saying he was stupid? Bold move!! I think if my LO had done that, I almost certainly would have taken it as a “back off, buddy”. So maybe that was really good boundary enforcement! Or maybe I’m misunderstanding. Either way, it’ll be interesting to see if your LO initiates any more texting for awhile!”
I wish I was this bold. I usually have no problem ghosting people (kindly). With LO, I just can’t. I sent him a video of SO (it’s on TikTok and it’s public) where SO is saying “it’s stupid that you’re (talking about me) actually right” kind of similar to LO texting “can’t fool you”.
Yes, it’s not the brightest move with a dismissive LO but he’s also forgiving in general so should be fine. I did end up initiating (lost my streak ugh) but I found perfect millennials TikTok to share (we always joke about millennials vs Gen X- Yes you are Gen X ;)) He replied within a second of a joke as well then disappeared (are you taking notes?!- sad but funny when I type it out) ….
“You said you’re going to have your first in person meeting with your LO since the disclosure 😬 What’s the context of the meeting? Will it just be the two of you alone or will it be among a group of people? What’s your strategy? Do you plan to address things directly or just act friendly but like nothing happened? Do you want to explicitly talk about boundaries?”
The meeting usually happens in his office, we keep the door open, and anyone can interrupt at any minute (which happens a lot), but I was planning to have a more private one just for the portion where we discuss this whole thing and then do the work portion in his office. If it was up to him, I think he prefers to act like nothing happens (dismissive avoidant). I, on the other hand, have to get some answers and a better plan moving forward. I can’t think of a boundary other than the “accidental arm touching” and “eye contact”. I should ask him how he feels about the boundaries as well as I am the one who initiated the whole boundary thing.
“Again, sounds like a hard situation with your SO. It’s hard to hear “I don’t have a problem, you just need to do therapy”. That said, the only person you can control is yourself, so don’t let that be a barrier to finding your own therapist – it’ll help you out regardless of what SO does or doesn’t do. I was a therapy-resistor for many years, and now I love it.”
True. I know I need therapy! I always did. Limerence just made it more urgent.
“Hmm, my LO is also 38. I’d say 38 is a good age for LOs. I don’t actually know if I’m handsome – my mom and my SO and my LO say so, and some of my patients tell me I’m handsome too, but that’s usually right before they ask me to prescribe them some narcotics 🤣. And I don’t want to give the impression that I have great hair (I would never want to misrepresent myself on an anonymous Internet forum, that would be abhorrent behavior) but it’s alright. I think my best features are kind eyes and a good smile. My LO has told me a lot about how much she likes my smile – I’m pretty sure it’s her favorite physical feature of mine.”
My favorite feature of LO is his smile. I actually look at people smiles first. Then eyes of course. Sense of humor is before appearance. I am a sucker for dry humor. Now that I think more of it, him teasing me was where the glimmer started. He can be really sarcastic, which is funny up until it’s not!
“I’m curious now about where you live – you said previously that you and your LO worked together but lived in different countries so I assumed somewhere in Europe where the countries are all tiny and close together. But then you said you live in the US, so that means your LO is either in Canada or Mexico, but you said he played hockey so I’m kinda leaning towards Canada 🤣. Is this like a Buffalo/Toronto thing? Or Vancouver/Bellingham? Or am I totally off? Don’t worry, I don’t live close to any of those places, and I’ll never tell you any identifying information about myself. I mean, there’s like 330 million people in the US… You know I’m a doctor, but there are approximately 1,073,616 doctors in the US, so I still feel pretty secure in my anonymity.”
Lol, the Canadian personality/kindness is what got me. This guy is so kind and gentle that I actually asked him on few occasions to act like a jerk 🙂
Aside from the regular high school crushes, this is my first limerence ever! I felt always powerful rejecting men’s advances in the past. Oh well! kind/shy men are my weakness. To answer your question, you did miss an important city up there.
“Besides… it could never work out between us. You run in the morning?!? Good lord no. I am not and never will be a morning person. I am distinctly a night person. Basic incompatibility right there! Of course, you could always just tell yourself that surely I’d change for you… 😘”
I am actually a night owl. LO is a night owl as well. I started running in the mornings after having kids. I also believe that when I run int eh morning it sucks so much that my day can’t get worse ;)…. Telling myself I could change you is music to my ears! I do so good at this game that 15 years of marriage and I’m still trying to change SO!!!!
Actually, LO always jokes about how great of an employe I am and that I can change people around me. Like getting him to running and stop procrastinating at work. He was just an easy target! My ego loved changing him up until I couldn’t!!!
I will let you know how my meeting goes tomorrow. I need to hear about you though. LO is pretty quiet (introverted and shy) everyone around him thinks he’s the best listener. I have been trying to get him to talk more. I’m going to do the same with you! If you don’t over share, then the limerence risk is high. At least I’m learning what to avoid after I heal from this whole thing (if that’s even possible).!
One last thing, I’m not really worried about people finding out its me. This website is so painful that I sometimes doubt that it’s my own reply!
TTYL 🙂
L&C, how did the meeting go today? I’ve been thinking about you all day wondering how it would go…
Montreal? It must be Montreal, no? And you must live in… Burlington VT? Are you neighbors with Bernie Sanders? Do you and your LO fight over whether Vermont or Quebec has better maple syrup?
I went to Montreal once. I was in med school somewhere in the northeastern US, and my wife and I spent a weekend in Montreal running a half marathon. It was really cool – the race went all around the city and ended with a lap around the track in the old Olympic stadium. It was the first half marathon for either of us.
What kind of distances do you like to run? Do you do a lot of races or just like running on your own? Are you training for anything now? Do you enjoy any other sports too?
I’m training for a half marathon right now, it’s at the end of July. I’m running it with a female friend who I train with semi-regularly. She’s plenty attractive and we get along well and talk with each other about all kinds of things including pretty personal stuff, but she’s never glimmered for me and I don’t have any of those kinds of feelings for her at all. She feels more like a sister to me than a potential partner. I don’t totally understand why, but I’m grateful to be able to have at least one good female friend that I’m not fighting feelings for.
My LO isn’t a runner or really an athlete at all. We don’t actually have that much in common in terms of hobbies and activities and background and stuff. I don’t think any sort of algorithm would select us as a match. But we’re just really compatible and magnetically drawn to each other and just really like each other a lot.
Anyway, I can’t wait to hear how your meeting with your LO went today!
Au revoir,
LiS 😊
PS I was wondering for a second if LiS could be a chemical formula but then I remembered that Li is 1+ and sulfide is 2- so it has to be Li2S, which isn’t the initials for my pseudonym. Darn.
PPS I didn’t actually remember that, I googled it because I was trying to impress you by talking anions and cations to you 😘
Well hello Li2S!!!
“L&C, how did the meeting go today? I’ve been thinking about you all day wondering how it would go…”
Your sweetness is so appreciated. I’m really not surprised you have a mutual limerence (despite your LO being her dismissive self- You deserve better with that heart of yours ;))
Driving to my meeting, I’ve never been more anxious in my life. I called his work number (1st time ever!) He didn’t recognize my voice at first as he answered the phone with Dr. instead of his name. I went with it and said hi Dr. (never called him Dr. before :)). Then proceeded to ask him about his day in which he actually shared some details (few months ago he would’ve said good and went quite). I also I asked if he recognized my voice in the beginning, he said yes, he was just playing my little games. “Excuse me I don’t play games” I said, he answered ” maybe I am the one who plays games” oh well awkward start…
After breaking the cold, I told him about my anxiety and asked to meet privately (offered to either go for a walk on the trail next to work-ironically, it’s the trail I’ve been running on for 9 years now-. He’s never been on the trail before despite working 15 years there (he’s not big on walking/socializing at work). I live very close to the trail/work. my second offer was to or meet in a conference room (where we sometimes meet when we need to focus).
To my surprise he picked the walk which was better honestly as the chance for prolonged eye contact (the worst trigger) is close to zero.
He showed up and he was the best dressed I’ve ever seen him in my whole year of seeing him every day (he doesn’t dress well in general). Also, hair (he has a beautiful salt/pepper hair) perfectly fixed. I couldn’t help but comment on his appearance, he said he wanted to make a good first impression since it’s the start of summer semester. Yeah, sure two semesters ago never cared for first impression. Him looking so good (the best I’ve seen him didn’t help at all).
I first told him that I know he’s dismissive avoidance so discussing feelings is a nightmare for him, he said he knows he’s DA (WHAT??? I THOUGHT HE’S CLULESS ABOUT ATTACHMENT THERORIES). He said he thinks about it during his self-reflection time. I was stunned, what self-reflection? this guy is as cold as an ice cube…. Anyways, I said I have some questions about your feelings.
1) Is it exclusively sexual attraction? he said no it’s a personality/appearance combination.
I asked him if he believes people can love two at the same time? he said it’s possible (this the kind of answers he usually gives btw). I said, “do you love me”, he said he never used this word except with his wife (we rarely mention his wife, I mention SO way more). I said fair enough. He said he has hard time expressing his feelings in general but in our case it’s more difficult due to us not being exclusive. I asked him if I ever cross his mind when I’ m not around, he said yes. I asked for a percentage (I told you curiosity is my downfall ;)), in which he answered he can’t give a percentage but there’s not a day that pass without him thinking about me (YES!!!! I wanted a hug so bad after this).
I even asked if we’ll ever hug, he said “maybe” but he believes it will make things worse.
I said OKAY, now let’s be realistic and discuss our obstacles and boundaries. I said ” I don’t know a lot about your marriage as it seems it’s a taboo to discuss, but it seems you gave a good one” he said it’s an okay marriage. I said maybe we should discuss SOs more so it’s not awkward. He then told me how he met his wife during undergrad then they kind of built their life together (cute story actually, similar to mine in a way of getting married young). For religion, he said he switched before, so he’s not big on religions …. Then I asked him about his feelings about the whole boundaries’ suggestion? he said he’s wondering if we could actually have a friendship after this. He thinks if we keep our boundaries, it should work. He proposed no touching and no prolonged eye contact. I said what if we have a relapse, he laughed and said no way! he’s keeping me in check. he’s going to keep a record. I happily agreed that he should lead the way since he’s older/wiser and somehow has a better self-control. I did ask him if he ever wants to break up that he does it in person (no silent treatment, as I have a great fear of abandonment).
I said I’ll be sad/miserable, but I’ll survive, and I don’t want him to stay in this because he feels bad. I also used your joke (about texting instantly and then five days later), he said it’s not personal. He just leaves his phone and not big on texting. I asked what I should do better to help with boundaries, he said to not over think his texting pattern (I’m not sure how that will help). I also mentioned how I was hurt few times and in tears due to him doing certain things like talking on the phone to another coworker (I don’t like her, they’re friends but she’s not very nice to me) during our meetings. He was surprised that something like that would make me cry (I don’t think he understands limerence or maybe I act too tough in general).
2 hours later, we worked for 20 minutes, his wife called, and I heard their conversations about his highschooler being emotional about graduating high school (after he hung up, he awkwardly said life updates) and then we had to leave (I did lose two points because I awkwardly touched his shoulder while leaving ugh!!! I need to really work on self-control).
I asked if we’re meeting next week, he said we can always go for a walk!!! but he’s not sure. He’s trying to balance feelings with friendship. WHAT?!!! IT’S NOT A CHEMICAL REACTION!!! How can he have so much self-control and I can’t. I had a bug in my eye, and he wouldn’t touch it to help. Another guy would’ve jumped on the opportunity. I guess I got lucky with having my first and hopefully last limerence with a decent LO.
Anyways I texted him this song while walking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_ub7Etch2U
I asked him to delete the link after he’s done. I texted him today (after yesterdays’ meeting) just a TikTok and a meme. He seemed normal. I am definitely high. I’m not sure if the high is worth it though. Really scared of the low. Also, the guilt that comes with the high- no one talks about it!
Very strange story, back in December I coincidently met his wife on the train. And while talking we realized we know him. She texted him about meeting his new coworker and he never replied. At the time, he said he was too busy to reply but he was actually texting her right before. I asked him during our walk, and he said maybe subconsciously the attraction (at the time we were both hiding it well) made it awkward.
“Montreal? It must be Montreal, no? And you must live in… Burlington VT? Are you neighbors with Bernie Sanders? Do you and your LO fight over whether Vermont or Quebec has better maple syrup?
I went to Montreal once. I was in med school somewhere in the northeastern US, and my wife and I spent a weekend in Montreal running a half marathon. It was really cool – the race went all around the city and ended with a lap around the track in the old Olympic stadium. It was the first half marathon for either of us.
What kind of distances do you like to run? Do you do a lot of races or just like running on your own? Are you training for anything now? Do you enjoy any other sports too?
I’m training for a half marathon right now, it’s at the end of July. I’m running it with a female friend who I train with semi-regularly. She’s plenty attractive and we get along well and talk with each other about all kinds of things including pretty personal stuff, but she’s never glimmered for me and I don’t have any of those kinds of feelings for her at all. She feels more like a sister to me than a potential partner. I don’t totally understand why, but I’m grateful to be able to have at least one good female friend that I’m not fighting feelings for.”
Lol not as fancy as Montreal, I live in a place where our baseball team never win 🙂
That’s actually awesome that you have that kind of friendship. I think this will definitely help with recovery. I can’t have male friends like that because they always start having feelings. Maybe you once we both heal?
I ran few Halfs between the two countries 🙂 I tried to convince LO to sign up for the half but at the time he completely quit running. Now he’s back. he actually ran before our meeting, and he said running gin the morning sucks 🙂
I’m not training for anything specific due to limerence actually!!! I am not focused at all…. I run 20-25 miles a week depending on my work/kid’s sports schedule. I enjoy long runs but Ido on hill training a week. I love basketball but haven’t played since high school. I also lift on and off. It’s off now due to limerence I think 🙁 I was actually so close to give up running but then I realized it’ll be so bad doing so. How about you? I love running in new cities. I am big on Strava and posting all about my runs.
“My LO isn’t a runner or really an athlete at all. We don’t actually have that much in common in terms of hobbies and activities and background and stuff. I don’t think any sort of algorithm would select us as a match. But we’re just really compatible and magnetically drawn to each other and just really like each other a lot.”
I totally understand. The only thing in common with LO is our education and passion for science. He did say he likes how I push him in a good way.
Thank you for checking. I checked your other posts, and it seems you’re starting to crash. I’m sorry as much as it’s easy to come up with theories, limerence sucks and it controls you!!! I have to say so far, I’ve never initiated texting and felt good. Sooner or later DA will disappoint us. I even realized today that it’s almost always I’m the last one to text!!!!! like WHY?????? So today I let his text be last 🙂 honestly there was nothing to reply to but felt powerful hahahaha!!!! good luck, I obviously lost my addiction app streak. My goal is not to initiate (no matter how good the meme/TikTok is) till our meeting next week.
Stay in touch new friend, LO knows you exist he just doesn’t know we go to the same AA meeting 🙂
Au revoir (I know a little French but not because of Canada, as the neighboring city speak English;). I’m bilingual but not French 😉
“PS I was wondering for a second if LiS could be a chemical formula but then I remembered that Li is 1+ and sulfide is 2- so it has to be Li2S, which isn’t the initials for my pseudonym. Darn.
PPS I didn’t actually remember that, I googled it because I was trying to impress you by talking anions and cations to you”
I do have to say you have this in common with LO. This sense of humor is what I crave the most about our friendship 😉 Thank you for that…maybe one day I’ll come here when I crave that. I wonder if anyone on here can share a successful friendship story after limerence. I need hope I guess 🙁
TTYL Li2S (you can always change your name)!
Lost (more than ever) and of course confused.
Hi Lost and Confused 🙂
What an incredible story! Amazing to hear about two people having such an open and rational discussion about such a charged situation. Me and my LO had some really open and honest discussions too, but they were also highly emotional. Your discussion was like, well, two scientists sitting down to plan their next project. I think that’s really cool! Your LO seems very genuine, very comfortable with himself and not a game player, and you seem the same way (maybe not as comfortable in your own skin as he is, but very genuine and not into messing with other peoples’ hearts and heads). I like that about both of you.
I also like the fact that your LO has self-reflection time. Sounds like there’s a lot going on beneath the dismissive-avoidant surface. I can imagine that getting to know more about him would feel like a fun and exciting challenge for quite awhile.
“I said, “do you love me”, he said he never used this word except with his wife”.
What a perfect answer!! He didn’t say no, but he just took it off the table and set a strong boundary and made it clear his wife comes first and he isn’t even letting his mind go there. I think this guy actually has a really high emotional intelligence despite the dismissiveness and awkwardness. Damn, I wish I was that good – I told my LO I loved her madly and sent her videos of me singing her romantic love songs and then she stopped talking with me for a month because it was just too much. But again, you could probably spend many happy/anxious hours trying to get to know his inner mysteries – seems like the kind of guy who could just keep surprising you over and over.
“I did lose two points because I awkwardly touched his shoulder while leaving ugh!!! I need to really work on self-control”
I’m guessing that while it was you who came up with the boundaries and initiated the discussion about them, you’re going to do some boundary testing and count on him to enforce them. Am I right? And it sounds like it’s pretty likely that he’ll do just that, because you got lucky and got limerent for freaking Mr. Spock with better hair, but what will happen if he doesn’t enforce the boundaries one day? How far are you actually willing to go? And if something would stop you, what would it be? Respect for your SO and/or your marriage vows? Respect for his SO and his marriage? Not wanting to lose the friendship with him?
Anyway, it’s a pretty fascinating situation that you’re in and I’m really hoping it works out well! Maybe you and him can settle into a nice pattern of taking a little walk once a week and texting occasionally and just keep things there – for most people I’d say that the walks alone in the woods together would be way too dangerous, but for you and him it seems probably safe… I think the hardest thing for you, being limerent, will be to keep your interactions with him from ruling everything else in your life, and to keep yourself from always wanting more, just a little bit more, just a little more…
“I’m not training for anything specific due to limerence actually!!”
Interesting, I’m the opposite. I’ve gotten into the best shape of my life during the LE, mostly because all of the energy has to go somewhere, and physical exercise is a great way to burn it off. I’ve always been like that, I deal with difficult emotions by doing hard workouts. These days I’m into running (10k and 1/2 marathon are my favorite distances), sprint triathlons, weight lifting, and mixed martial arts. I used to do more team sports like basketball, baseball and soccer, but not much anymore except playing with my kids sometimes. Basketball was always my favorite sport to play (and watch) – until a few years ago I almost always had a weekly pickup game I was part of. But then I smashed 3 of the wrist bones on my shooting side into a bunch of pieces playing bball on concrete and had to have surgery and get a titanium plate put in, and I didn’t play again for a long time after that. But I played a couple hours of pickup ball 2 weeks ago and it was a ton of fun and I actually played pretty well, so now I’m looking to get back into it more regularly.
What is it about your limerence that messes up your training? Does it leave you feeling depressed much of the time so you can’t get out and exercise? Are you spending too much time on this website? Not wanting to go for a run because you might miss a text from him? Something else?
Regarding attachment styles, I’ve had a couple of long discussions with my LO about that as well. She’s actually a fearful avoidant, not a dismissive avoidant, which makes her way more unpredictable, with so many ups and downs. My last LO was a dismissive avoidant. The 2 LOs before that were secure. Having a fearful avoidant LO definitely leads to the biggest roller coaster of emotions, but it’s also kept me the most hooked. The only type of LO I haven’t had is anxious – oh yeah, that’s because I’m the anxious LO, haha! I’m guessing you’re an anxious as well? I feel like a LE with 2 mutually limerent anxious types could be…. anxiety provoking?
Finally, I’m curious now about what other language you speak! I’ve gotten the sense from your writing that you weren’t a monolingual English speaker, which I think is cool. My LO is also bilingual – her parents moved here from another country and her mom doesn’t even speak English at all. I think bilinguality is a good thing for LOs.
I grew up monolingual but learned Spanish later – I’m kind of at an intermediate level where I still have to use the interpreter phone for my Spanish speaking patients but I understand enough to know when the interpreter is interpreting wrong.
Good night my friend, sweet dreams 🙂
– Li2CO3 (because I can make you happy when you’re down)
or
-Li2CoO2 (because I can be the positive charge in your batteries)
Hi LiCO3 🙂
“What an incredible story! Amazing to hear about two people having such an open and rational discussion about such a charged situation. Me and my LO had some really open and honest discussions too, but they were also highly emotional. Your discussion was like, well, two scientists sitting down to plan their next project. I think that’s really cool! Your LO seems very genuine, very comfortable with himself and not a game player, and you seem the same way (maybe not as comfortable in your own skin as he is, but very genuine and not into messing with other peoples’ hearts and heads). I like that about both of you.”
Thank you! It was indeed. I have high anxiety in general due to my tough childhood (in addition to an abusive dad, I was actually abandoned by him for months at a time where I had to raise my little sister till, he came back home from his adventure with other women).
LO comes from a divorce family (much more civil and no abuse). he actually shared about his parents a month after I started working with him. No other coworker knows this about him. He’s very kind. People always go to him for help. But no one knows anything about his life. I think this all played a role in this whole situation. I read somewhere that when you’re limerent you’re also looking to have the qualities of the LO. It’s true for me, I want to be in peace and confident just like him. Now I want to have self-control like him as well. The list keeps getting longer.
“I also like the fact that your LO has self-reflection time. Sounds like there’s a lot going on beneath the dismissive-avoidant surface. I can imagine that getting to know more about him would feel like a fun and exciting challenge for quite awhile.”
True. I thought I figured him out and he’s going to be boring (which is great as I can’t do boring). It’s the opposite actually. I even asked him if he’s struggling (because I am), he said not after our disclosure conversation. I’m still puzzled by the answer as yes, the disclosure felt good, but the struggle is still there for me.
“What a perfect answer!! He didn’t say no, but he just took it off the table and set a strong boundary and made it clear his wife comes first and he isn’t even letting his mind go there. I think this guy actually has a really high emotional intelligence despite the dismissiveness and awkwardness. Damn, I wish I was that good – I told my LO I loved her madly and sent her videos of me singing her romantic love songs and then she stopped talking with me for a month because it was just too much. But again, you could probably spend many happy/anxious hours trying to get to know his inner mysteries – seems like the kind of guy who could just keep surprising you over and over.”
Haha, I wish I was like him too. The answer did burn a little spot in my heart but didn’t help the limerence. I actually mentioned to him that rejection will probably resolve this whole situation as I can’t do rejection.
“I’m guessing that while it was you who came up with the boundaries and initiated the discussion about them, you’re going to do some boundary testing and count on him to enforce them. Am I right? And it sounds like it’s pretty likely that he’ll do just that, because you got lucky and got limerent for freaking Mr. Spock with better hair, but what will happen if he doesn’t enforce the boundaries one day? How far are you actually willing to go? And if something would stop you, what would it be? Respect for your SO and/or your marriage vows? Respect for his SO and his marriage? Not wanting to lose the friendship with him?”
Yes. Can you help me figure this out? I started this and I’m unable to keep my promise (I feel like a hypocrite). It’s strange for someone who runs in the ice, snow, cold, heat, 8 months pregnant. I don’t struggle with discipline. I never drank. I’m not even big on touching (I actually have to pretend I like hugs, so my kids feel loved). what’s up with this new lack of self-control and this strange behavior (I am actually ashamed)!!!!
I’m relying on him to enforce boundaries (I asked him about the secret for his self-control so I can learn, he said he has no answer but just like I have the running discipline, he has this one so do I want to trade him?). I think my religious belief and self-respect/image will stop me. I hope so!!!! I’ll probably get scared and run away!!!!
“Anyway, it’s a pretty fascinating situation that you’re in and I’m really hoping it works out well! Maybe you and him can settle into a nice pattern of taking a little walk once a week and texting occasionally and just keep things there – for most people I’d say that the walks alone in the woods together would be way too dangerous, but for you and him it seems probably safe… I think the hardest thing for you, being limerent, will be to keep your interactions with him from ruling everything else in your life, and to keep yourself from always wanting more, just a little bit more, just a little more…”
Just wanted to clarify that the trail is in the wood but there are always tons of people running/walking on. There was a couple who see me running every day, when they saw us, they kept staring at me. He asked me if I knew them 🙂 so we’re not alone. I don’t think being alone will make a difference due to his personality. I could be wrong as I’ve been proven to be wrong about him the last few weeks.
“What is it about your limerence that messes up your training? Does it leave you feeling depressed much of the time so you can’t get out and exercise? Are you spending too much time on this website? Not wanting to go for a run because you might miss a text from him? Something else?”
That was painful to read about your injury- SO SORRY! The difference for me is I used to exercise to get high before meeting LO. Now I don’t feel the high anymore. I think it’s the limerence depression. I don’t spend much on this website as I only reply to you 🙂 (you’re welcome). I also don’t like the setup of this website. Sometimes, it’s actually depressing being here and sometimes it’s a good distraction.
I spend most of my time taking care of the kids (they’re on a swim team so it’s an everyday thing). And work (part time but since I volunteer to do extra things to impress LO it takes a little more time). I still run the same as before in hope to one day get back to the happiness I used to feel from running. Limerence SUCKS!!!!
“Regarding attachment styles, I’ve had a couple of long discussions with my LO about that as well. She’s actually a fearful avoidant, not a dismissive avoidant, which makes her way more unpredictable, with so many ups and downs. My last LO was a dismissive avoidant. The 2 LOs before that were secure. Having a fearful avoidant LO definitely leads to the biggest roller coaster of emotions, but it’s also kept me the most hooked. The only type of LO I haven’t had is anxious – oh yeah, that’s because I’m the anxious LO, haha! I’m guessing you’re an anxious as well? I feel like a LE with 2 mutually limerent anxious types could be…. anxiety provoking?”
Do you think you’ve always been anxious? Limerence taught me that I’m attracted to fearful avoidant (I didn’t know the name for it, I realized I always chased people who ignored me). I hope therapy will resolve that for me. I can be fearful avoidant as well with the right partner. Do you even think it’s possible to have limerence with another anxious? The mystery/challenge is the trigger for me.
“Finally, I’m curious now about what other language you speak! I’ve gotten the sense from your writing that you weren’t a monolingual English speaker, which I think is cool. My LO is also bilingual – her parents moved here from another country and her mom doesn’t even speak English at all. I think bilinguality is a good thing for LOs.
I grew up monolingual but learned Spanish later – I’m kind of at an intermediate level where I still have to use the interpreter phone for my Spanish speaking patients but I understand enough to know when the interpreter is interpreting wrong.”
Haha! Spanish is cool. My other language is completely unrelated to English (it’s cool but with limerence I find myself unable to come up with the right words)!!! I actually introduced LO to the language, so I taught him few words and brought him lunch on several occasions (I stopped doing that by the way!!!! as it felt weird that he never got my anything….)
Finally, we did have a phone call yesterday while the kids were in swim practice. I work at a different job during the summer (It works better for my schedule than my original job where LO is but it’s a longer commute). The IT at my current job gave me tickets to a baseball (remember the losing team) game. I’m not big on bball but I know LO is. I texted him (I always do before calling) if he has a minute chat. He replied instantly yes. I was still at work, so I told him I’ll call during swim practice. I did. We talked for an hour (He had to leave few times to answer the door. I’m surprised he stayed home for the call as I am too nervous to do so). Anyways, I asked him about his day and run. We discussed running and pace etc… Then I asked him if he did some self-reflection, he said no. I asked what he thought about our last meeting? did we do good? he said “what do you think with a laugh implying we/I didn’t” I said I asked first. He said it’s going to be a process not a switch to get there (I agreed and requested an incentive to the days I do good 😉 since apparently, I’m a toddler when it comes to self-control :(….
Then he asked me about a screenshot I sent him (it says chemotherapy but I’m actually getting iron infusions due to my severe anemia). In the screen shot, I said this would be a perfect excuse to leave my current job with no hurt feelings. He knew about the iron infusions, but the appointment said Chemo. I said if you thought it’s chemo, why would you wait 24 hours to ask. He said he was planning to ask but was thinking it’s not possible it’s chemo. Those little things that he does hurt me. He’s so cold/logical it’s painful. Like I would’ve drove to Canada if he sent me a similar text….
Then I asked him what’s his schedule like for Wednesday evening? (I was planning to give him the four tickets to go with his friends, kids, family…) he said his son has soccer.
Then I jokingly said I wanted to ask you out on a date (I laughed) he said in that case it’s a NO 🙁 It actually hurts even though we both were joking. Anyway, we talked for an hour and then we had to leave. Something about this phone call made me feel down. I am hoping my feelings get less intense with time (the novelty of the whole thing dies). I’m not sure…. My goal is to not text till our meeting next week as I think, similar your LO, he gets overwhelmed. …But then why answer instantly and tell me he’s free to call (why enable me if he has self control???) I don’t get it!!!!! Sorry for the rant.
On a different note, how are you feeling about your recent interaction with LO (I told you I only read your posts ;):)?!!!
“Good night my friend, sweet dreams 🙂
– Li2CO3 (because I can make you happy when you’re down)
or
-Li2CoO2 (because I can be the positive charge in your batteries)”
This is so cute… Part of my job is to teach chemistry to pre-med majors. I’m always trying to link it to medicine in hope to get them interested 🙂
What’s your time zone (I’m really curious to know where you are)?
Dear Lost and Confused,
I didn’t want you to think I forgot about you (I could never!) or that I’m messing you around by not responding for days, but I also have had really limited time today and there’s a lot I want to write to you, so I can’t give you the full reply I want to right now.
But I do have a proposal for you… the comments section for this particular blog is probably the highest volume comments section on this whole site, and I’m finding it really hard to find your messages and navigate. So I propose that you and I transfer our conversation to this comments section:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-transferring-limerence/
It’s a topic of interest to both of us, and the comments section has way less traffic so it’ll be a lot easier to keep up with each other. What do you say? Join me for a date on the transferring limerence comments page?
More soon,
LiS 😘
PS – your baseball team was really good back when they had Verlander and Mad Max, but I guess that was almost 10 years ago now… (did I get it right this time?)
PPS – I’ll tell you what time zone I live in if you tell me what language you speak… deal? 😉
Hi Lost and Confused,
I’ve been thinking about your story. It sounds like your SO isn’t attentive and you feel lonely. I’m concerned for you. That would be hard. It also sounds like your LO isn’t an attentive man either. I wonder why you’re drawn to him. I think you might find loneliness if you were with your LO. It’s something I was thinking about today. I keep wondering, “Why would she trade one aloof man for another aloof man?” It’s just a thought. I could be wrong.
Best wishes!
Lol Lovisa! Your questions are scary… considering I over analyze everything and everyone I never thought about it this way. SO is very touchy and emotional but yes he’s not attentive. LO is the opposite but he’s attentive most of the time (I think he has ADHD). But yes maybe they’re both the same after all. I’m hoping therapy can find the answer to your question. My dad had a very bad temper and he was hot and cold but not very loving or showing. I also lien a challenge that’s why after disclosing I went cold for a day or so where I felt very numbed. I’m struggling with all this. I know I want to keep a boundary to preserve my self image not for SO though. Your questions are challenging so keep them coming. I might not have an answer though which explains the lack of response sometimes.
LIS,
I can’t find the reply button to your reply… Thank you for your detailed reply.
“First SO – sounds like you guys have some pretty serious problems if you’ve been talking about divorce for a while. Is this LE the catalyst to do something you’ve actually known you need to do for a long time and move to end the marriage?”
True! I was young (23) when I got married so I really didn’t know what I wanted. I come from a divorced family so I’m not big on the whole marriage idea. I don’t know if LE was a catalyst more like an escape, I started my job almost a year ago the same week SO got diagnosed with another cancer (7 years after the first one). Ironically SO is younger than LO and would say healthier overall but due to all the cancers he is in worst shape. I definitely have a motivation to make this marriage work (KIDS!!!) but again, if he doesn’t work on his temper, it’s a deal breaker for me since it brings so much trauma when he yells and lose his temper. We shall see.
LO does bring a side in me that died due to staying at home with the kids. He brings the confident, creative scientist. He also doesn’t give anyone else attention (he’s very kind to everyone) but I definitely get a special treatment (Yes, it’s not enough because I’m limerent). He thinks my ideas are just great! he also laughs when I’m around which makes me feel funny! I just wish he was a little open. It will actually help my limerence. Curiosity is my downfall, so him being mysterious (unintentionally) is not helping.
“He has many traits that you find really appealing, but it also sounds like even if you ended your marriage, you’d be unlikely to find happily ever after with LO. Primarily, it sounds like he’s still committed to his marriage, so that’s basically the end of the fantasy right there, but even if he was available as well, there would be other big issues like differences in religion, you not getting what you need from him emotionally due to his dismissive/avoidant style, and basic issues of physical attraction.”
Reading this made me notice how superficial my comment sounded. Despite SO’s “right” height, I also don’t find him physically my type or maybe I’m just too picky!! I do know that as much as I’d like a very handsome guy, I can’t do stupid and so far, I haven’t found handsome and smart man. I’m attracted to nerds in general, both SO and LO are big nerds. SO is more of a math nerd though! Appearances are not a deal breaker. For the emotional part, SO is very touchy which makes me feel smothered. I am definitely attracted to dismissive but then I don’t’ like when I’m ignored (go figure). My limerent brain thinks I can change LO since I saw change since we started working together (he replies way faster, he doesn’t ghost me anymore and recently he has been actually doing actions to help at work without being asked). Religion and our kids would always be a deal breaker so there is that. I’m also not to concerned about PA due to me being too awkward in general (I only had one partner SO and waited till marriage).
“So for the past few weeks, we’re in the latest version of our relationship. We’re texting every day and talking on the phone a couple times a week, and she’s even come and sat in my office and chatted a couple of times, but we aren’t touching each other at all and aren’t explicitly talking about our feelings for each other – but by now we know each other really well so we have plenty of little ways to let the other one know we still care without explicitly saying “I love you”. And a lot of our interaction is friendly banter and joking around and just making each other smile and laugh, and a lot of it is being involved in each others lives and keeping up on everything we’re doing, and some of it is talking about challenging things we’re going through and giving emotional support – so on the surface it’s like we’re just good friends who like each other a lot, but of course we both know that there’s a lot more feelings under the surface.”
We are at this stage basically. I’d like to keep it that way. Obviously no more accidental arm touch. I’m not a big phone person so basically just our once-a-week meeting. We have a great friendship that I’d like to keep. I’m actually working away during summer, and we got closer then when we were together (I hope this not bad news for you).
I’d also like to keep it discrete not because it could reach SO as I’m pretty open about our friendship (minus the limerence of course). I just need to get the limerence under control, so I don’t lose a good friend.
“I’m probably going to butcher this analogy because it’s been a long time since I took a chemistry class, but I want to say that whenever we’re actively engaged in a relationship with each other, it’s like we’re atoms in an ionized state which is unstable and can’t exist that way for long without either returning to a stable state or bonding with another ion to form a new molecule (but that’s not quite right is it? I’m trying to talk nerd to impress you but I’m not quite smart enough to pull it off 🤣). ”
This just got really weird (looking over my shoulder), I have a PhD in chemistry 🙂 LO uses the expression “I’m trying to impress you, whenever he gets nerdy” … you can’t be him!!!! Your chemistry is on point! Limerence though makes all the years of schooling go out of the window…it’s dumbing me down!
I think I jinxed myself saying LC is easy due to him not initiating, he texted me out of the blue four days after not replying to my last text that he’s going to start running again now the summer schedule is here (I got him into running initially, as I’m pretty passionate about the topic so almost everyone around me hears me talking about running. He asked me for advice when I first joined to get started. That was part of the glimmer honestly. Then he quit. When we disclosed, I told him in an ideal world our relationship won’t work, his age is not a deal breaker I’m not attracted to my age anyways. He said he feels I’m disappointed that he quit running, I said no but I was actually disappointed at the time)!!!!!
On a different note, could transferring limerence work for us (me and you)? From the time you post, it seems we’re not close so we’ll never risk a chance to meet and hopefully our limerence won’t get as bad? how tall are you 🙂 ?? and how old? just kidding….
Thank you again!
Hi Lost and Confused! Thanks for the reply and for sharing more about yourself and your situation!
“If he doesn’t work on his temper, it’s a deal breaker for me since it brings so much trauma when he yells and lose his temper”
That’s a tough one. I imagine that would be really hard to live with, and hard to have your kids live with. I’m curious about this issue. Do you fear for you and your kids’ safety when he loses his temper? Is this an every day thing or is it rare? Is he aware that it’s a problem and is he committed to working on it in good faith? Also, was this always his way or did it change after his cancer diagnoses? I can imagine that being diagnosed with cancer at a young age could be pretty traumatic and could affect someone in a lot of ways. Has he sought therapy to deal with this trauma? Have you and him done any couples therapy together?
“LO does bring a side in me that died due to staying at home with the kids. He brings the confident, creative scientist”
That’s one of the good sides of limerence, in that it can awaken parts of ourselves that we’ve lost over the years. Now the question going forward is how do you continue to nourish those traits in yourself without relying on LO to bring them out? Remember, LO didn’t create anything in you that wasn’t there already, he just helped bring it to the surface. This is an area where I think working with a good therapist or psychologist can be really helpful.
“On a different note, could transferring limerence work for us (me and you)? From the time you post, it seems we’re not close so we’ll never risk a chance to meet and hopefully our limerence won’t get as bad? how tall are you 🙂 ?? and how old? just kidding….”
Haha I’m 42 years old but my garmin says that my fitness age is 20. I still have most of my own hair (and I’m taking pills to keep from losing it 🤣). I’m 6’3” with an athletic physique. My mom says I’m handsome AND smart 😊. I’m a devoted and fun loving dad – most evenings involve me roughhousing with my toddlers and then playing saxophone duets with my older son after the littles go to bed. I’m pretty laid back and calm and rarely lose my temper, unless it’s necessary like if some health plan administrator is trying to deny an important treatment for one of my patients. I live in the US and I’m guessing you live somewhere in Europe? Go ahead and transfer away! If it helps, I can even add fuel by sometimes responding immediately to your messages and other times waiting a few days 🤣. Maybe I’ll even transfer back 😘
-LIS
I wish you well with all that, LIS; it sounds like a plan.
“I need to just ride out the last couple months of proximity to LO without doing anything stupid, and then let the relationship die out naturally once she leaves”
I know the theory but I think you will need to brace yourself when it come to the leaving part because, when my LO neighbour moved away, the grief and sadness was intense. The real kick came when I had to accept that we are unlikely to see each other again because he has apparently moved on. It may be more manageable when you have a SO.
“you will need to brace yourself when it come to the leaving part because, when my LO neighbour moved away, the grief and sadness was intense.”
I think it was Tuesday night I was listening to some music on youtube while I was playing some Zelda. My phone was sitting on the dresser by me while I played. My wife looked down at it as she passed by me to go to the kitchen. I was listening to “Ghost of You” and she was reading the lyrics on the video for a minute. She looks over at me and asks “Are you having a bad day?” I said no, why? “You are listening to this song.” I said no just listening to the whole playlist.
“why do I still cry for you
dying to get close to you
why do I still fear to face
the ghost of you”
It’s been over a damn year. 6 months of momma knowing about my limerence. What, do I have to sacrifice my marriage to get over this damned thing? Whoever said out of sight out of mind was full of $hit.
Ghost Of You — Micheal Learns To Rock
https://youtu.be/NW5tKa-yeHc
Adam,
Do you have to sacrifice your marriage to get over this?
You could, but honestly, I don’t think it would solve the problem.
You know that you’re a rescuer/ fixer. But, do you know why you’re a rescuer/fixer?
IMO, until you figure that out and deal with it, the best you can do is force it into remission. For some people, that’s good enough.
Ah, yes, I guess that’s close to the point I was making, Adam. When you are in deep, limerence doesn’t just beautifully and magically fade away when you stop seeing each other.
Mind you, I think you and I have both had times when we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. So for you it’s no contact for a year and six months since you disclosed to your SO. For me it’s six months of no contact and fifteen months since I saw LO. We press on.
I reckon I have just, once again, persuaded myself not to send LO a message.
And, no, you certainly do not have to sacrifice your marriage.
I may listen to the song in your post. That will be a first!
L.E.
I don’t know why I am a “rescuer”. I don’t have any past trauma or bad childhood experiences to account for it. I had loving parents that taught me to be the man I am today. Usually disorders like being a “rescuer” come from something. Maybe it’s all about me and I am just a narcissist and don’t know it or recognize it. Maybe I use fixing others as a way to ignore my own issues?
frederico
Yes there are times I feel better about my limerence than other times. When LiS talked about letting her go and letting it die naturally it made me think of how the two weeks I knew LO was leaving that I was optimistic that I would certainly miss her but was happy that she was moving onto something that made her happy. And then as I watched her drive away with nothing more than a “goodbye Adam” I cried in my truck watching her leave. And I am not a crier. To the point that my sons asked their mother why I didn’t cry at grandma’s (my wife’s biological mother) funeral.
I never thought a woman could do this to me. Previous the only woman that made me cry was my wife. And I don’t mean that negatively. Just that she was the only one that could invoke that intense of emotion in me. And I’ve been left/forgotten about by many women I had feeling for before I met my wife so it is not something I am a stranger to.
Good for you frederico. I had a very pivotal moment last week when I came so close to pushing send and calling LO and I didn’t. I don’t know why the desire was so intense, as it was just randomly in the middle of the work day. Every bit of progress is progress for us both.
If you like the song, MLTR has a lot of great songs I like. They are Swedish band that sing in English that I have been around since the 90’s. If you like Ghost of You, you will probably like more of their songs. They are in the adult contemporary/soft rock genre. Remind me a lot of Air Supply in that they have a lot of “crying in your beer” love songs lol
You are not a narcissist, Adam. You might have moments where you put your own wants and needs ahead of others, but everyone has those moments. A person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder willingly hurts other people to get what they want. They don’t care how their actions affect others, only how it affects them. You are not like that. You care very much about how your actions affect others. You are even willing to sacrifice your own comfort for the benefit of others. The only time a “narcissist” (I actually don’t like that word because I think it is overused) the only time they sacrifice their wants and needs is if they see a benefit for themselves. It’s quite sad. You don’t fit that description.
That’s definitely no joke. I can attest also, when LO left her spot in February, it was beyond traumatic for me. I found it hard to stay composed at work. Almost called off, and cried every moment I could get to myself. Even though she just moved next door to work and I can still see her, it’s not the same when she was in my building. I still haven’t recovered. I still cry, and it’s been over 4 months. I really still miss her.
@MJ A heartfelt post. I empathise, I really do. It will get better, I honestly believe that. It just takes time, so much time apparently.
@ Adam You are an inclusive good guy, it seems to me. Noble too. I have always thought that. I listened to the song and I enjoyed it.
I have re-read my “never to be sent” draft message to my LO. Bearing in mind our age difference and stuff that I have posted here several times before, it would most likely be unkind for me to tell him about the effects of ghosting. Surely he has a fair idea already. I need to try to be noble too, although it’s driving me ever-so slightly crackers.
Cue Netflix and a glass of whisky.
Thank you Frederico. Always hoping something gets better..
“BTW- your post about loving gray hair was probably my all time favorite comment on LWL.”
Well thank you Summer. Just trying to let the ladies know some of us men like that and ya’ll shouldn’t feel it’s a negative thing. While I really liked the many shades of red my wife would dye her hair over the years I even more like that she is embracing her gray. And it looks good on her *raises eyebrow* wink wink 🙂
Adam- You make me smile. The red hair. The red hair.
First off- I agree with Lovisa. You are not a narcissist. I know you have your issues to deal with (don’t we all!), but I don’t think narcissism is one of them.
“It’s been over a damn year. 6 months of momma knowing about my limerence. What, do I have to sacrifice my marriage to get over this damned thing? Whoever said out of sight out of mind was full of $hit.”
I had a follow up question from your earlier post. I was a bit confused- were you in fact having a bad day as reflected in the music, or did your wife read the situation incorrectly? Did the music lyrics prompt an argument or conflict with your wife? Was there something else going on?
How are you feeling today? Are you doing better? Are you still feeling down from the one year anniversary?
(Sorry if you have already discussed this earlier- I have been full out with work and family today. I haven’t had a chance to read LWL. Feel free to direct me to an earlier post if this is the case!)
-I just want to point out how far you have come since when you initially came to this site. It’s not just that your insight into your feelings, the situation and limerence in general- but your whole tone is substantially different. The way you talk about LO, your wife, and yourself shows how much you have changed. I know you are in a better place.
Just remember, LO is just another human. If you really ended up with her you would see her warts and all. She represents an ideal, and for all the reasons you have said in the past, it has hit you very hard at this point in your life.
-I miss chatting with you. Hoping things calm down in my life soon so I am not so MIA!
Summer, I have a weakness for red hair. LO had red hair even though she dyed it black. But she had the fire of a woman with red hair.
” I was a bit confused- were you in fact having a bad day as reflected in the music, or did your wife read the situation incorrectly?”
I wasn’t having a particularly bad day, no. I really was just listening to music while I played my game. I think my wife has invested herself into my limerence. I remember one evening recently when I was out on the porch she came out to smoke and she asked me “are you alright” I said yeah. She said “it looks like you’ve been crying” and I said no, which was the truth and she said “you know you can tell me anything”.
” Did the music lyrics prompt an argument or conflict with your wife? Was there something else going on?”
I think she knows as much as I try to hide it that LO is still on my mind even if it isn’t intrusive. I don’t think my limerence upsets or makes her mad anymore. I think she is more concerned at this point. Which I don’t know how to take. It’s almost like she looks at my limerence as I finally did her bipolar. That it is something we have to deal with together that might be around longer than we would want it to be. But she is still willing to deal with it.
“How are you feeling today? Are you doing better?”
I am feeling pretty optimistic. My son stayed at his lady friend’s house between Sunday until yesterday evening when I picked him up after work. Her mother had to go out of town for a surgery and he stay with her and her sister so they didn’t have to be alone while their parents were gone. Her mother couldn’t stop praising and thanking me for my son for staying with their daughters and protecting them. I’m not gonna lie, kinda felt pretty proud of my wife and I’s parenting skills at that point. So still feeling good about that now. I am very proud of the man he has become. If I did anything right in my life it was him and his brother.
I have my setbacks and relapses and all but I am feeling much better about this limerence. It doesn’t feel like a prison so much anymore. It more feels like diet. I get challenged to make the right choices but I usually do in the end. When I get a thought of LO …. should I dwell on this (should I eat this cookie)? No you shouldn’t. Okay I won’t. But sometimes I do. I have to discipline myself when it comes to her. At some point the diet becomes habit and the choices are made naturally. I am hoping to get to that point soon.
“Are you still feeling down from the one year anniversary?”
I do miss her a lot. But I think it’s in a more healthy way now. I don’t really have the ruminations. At least not every time I think of her. It’s more reminiscing on memories that we have together. Her and her daughter and I. I miss those times. When LO and her daughter played a prank on me at work. Or when LO realized I wasn’t drinking my soda at lunch because she forgot and got me Dr Pepper instead of Coke and she was mortified lol.
Even in deep limerence I knew that I just enjoyed time together with them. They were awesome ladies to have memories of. I hope that they are happy.
“The way you talk about LO, your wife, and yourself shows how much you have changed.”
I just want what is best of my wife and LO. They are two very important ladies to me and if being present, for my wife, and absent, for LO, is the way it needs to be than so be it. I have to put them both before myself. As the song says “You’ll only know you love her when you let her go.”
“She represents an ideal, and for all the reasons you have said in the past, it has hit you very hard at this point in your life.”
I thought on this …. I think this might pinpoint something about LO’s age. Being that younger women don’t usually catch my attention I am starting to wonder if it’s more my age than hers. I am at my mid point in life. I am married with children. She was at a turning point in her life being recently divorced at her early 30’s. I was looking for a new start? I could be the guy that was better than her ex? Her daughters need a good father figure? Why would some “man” do this to her? I guess I was trying to fill a role that LO didn’t ask me to. At least not directly. But at the same time didn’t stop me from doing. Ugh you women are so hard to figure out 🙂 At least she found the right man for her and her daughters to fill those roles. I think I can move on in life knowing that.
I look forward to hearing from you when you get the time Summer. I know how busy life can be sometimes.
Yeah,
Redhead isn’t just a hair color, it’s an attitude.
Toss in green eyes…
https://p1.pxfuel.com/preview/365/682/334/tiger-eyes-predator-tiles.jpg
Summer, I had to giggle at that comment about the red hair. See what Adam doesn’t know, is that my natural hair color had red tinges to it anyway (he’s never seen my true hair color, I started dyeing it at 12 — thanks genetics 😉 .) I’m not even sure if *I* remember what my natural hair was. I just remember the red tinges that came from my paternal grandmother.
Now, what tickled me about the comment was the way you said “the red hair, the red hair”. I would tease him in the chatroom we met in because Phantom Menace had just come out and he’d say something about it and my reply was “aye, you and that Natalie woman!” it really was a joke and I got a kick out of teasing him. He is that way about Scully in X-Files too, but undeniable Gillian and Natalie are some very beautiful women.
I would like to address the day he was talking about with the music. I was sincere when I asked if he’d had a bad day, I wasn’t looking for a fight or a slight – the playlist that song is on he named “guilty” so I asked the next logical -in my mind- question. I can’t do anything to help, talk it out or anything else if he won’t be open or honest, so I didn’t push and the ball was left in his court.
I, personally, am a walking musical contradiction – self-admitted. He and I are weird when it comes to our music, I used to go to sleep in HS listening to Pantera or Tool, maybe some Pearl Jam or Soundgarden etc. I grew up with MTV (back when it was *actually* Music Television) he did not, I was raised on Waylon and Merle (basically all the musicians in The Highwaymen), Three Dog Night, Def Leppard and Procol Harum, America, CCR, and Bob Seger anything and everything in between. The Urban Cowboy 8 track was very often played.
I use music as therapy, sometimes you just have to scream with the band or dance around the kitchen like an idiot. Linkin Park, Avenged Sevenfold, Blue October and Three Days Grace (with the original vocalist) got me and still gets me through some dark times.
I used to share my music with him but even that has been changed. Now I have to think about the lyrics more in depth… I wanted to send him Bad Omens Just Pretend but some lyrics in it will more than likely trigger intrusive thoughts. And the last thing I want to do is cause intrusive thoughts, I have them and they are a mind trip, I don’t wish them on anyone. I’d love to send him Falling In Reverse’s Last Resort (Reimagined) (done with the blessing of Jacoby and Papa Roach) because both versions sum me up some days, but he doesn’t particularly like FiR, so I won’t. It was the same with Chris Stapleton’s Fire Away and Linkin Park’s Talking To Myself because they both come from the perspective of an SO to someone like me (mentally screwed) and to me it screamed out the things that Adam has been to me.
And yes he’s right, I’m concerned. He’s drinking too much (especially for a cardiac patient on blood thinners) and usually by the time he’ll talk to me, he’s so far gone he doesn’t remember, I’m hard of hearing and he is so difficult to understand I get frustrated and that is interpreted as p!ssed off. I get frustrated because I know people don’t like be asked to repeat themselves 3 or 4 times and I don’t really like asking.
I only have one thing that I ask of the boys and him, look at me when speaking because I also read lips to understand.
Psssst. DmmitHardison and Summer, let’s gang up on Adam and see if we can social pressure him into giving up alcohol. Don’t tell him, K?
Oh Lovisa if only that would work. .
In all my years, I’ve learned it can’t be done, it’s not something anyone can force (fun “family” time story. . my paternal grandfather and grandmother were both alcoholics, 2 of mom’s brothers are alcoholics. the youngest almost died in 2019 -whew wasn’t that a fun flashback -not really. . . he was in a coma, and when all was said and done he had to learn how to walk again, his memory is damaged…we tried for years and years but he had to hit his rock bottom. I also have numerous cousins that are alcoholics or addicts, some in recovery some are not).
I would be happy if he just cut way down on the amount, rather embarrassing to go to dinner with my dad and his wife, and I had to tell him 4 times in 3 miles where we were going. I went sober because I had to . . . I am not classified an alcoholic but alcohol dependent though I treat myself as a recovering alcoholic, I don’t cook with anything containing alcohol (in fact I found an Alcohol Removed Red Wine to cook with), but honestly I’d feel like a huge hypocrite, it’s a brain thing I think. I knew he was a self-described alcoholic before we ever saw each other face to face, he never hid that from me.
No excuses, just a look through my eyes. It has gotten worse and worse since the whole thing started, and then I get to ‘listen’ to his night talking, some times he tells me oilfield part numbers, sometimes it’s his LO and he even called our girl cat a hussy because she leapt off his lap while he was sleeping. It’s wild. Last night he was jibber jabbering and it sounded like a Pentecostal revival where they all speak in tongues, like I said wild.
Thank you for caring about him so much, I truly do appreciate every one that’s been here.
“… I get to ‘listen’ to his night talking, some times he tells me oilfield part numbers…”. Hahaha! My husband talks in his sleep, too. It’s hilarious! One time, he fired me.
It’s easy to care about your husband because he is so likable. Does he have any desire to cut back on the alcohol? Please understand that I come at this with a lot of naïveté. Adam seems motivated to improve himself. He seems like the kind of person that wants to take care of other people. If the alcohol is getting in the way of taking care of others, I think he might consider cutting back. I don’t know. What does he say when you guys talk about it?
Miss Lovisa
I can’t answer your questions but Momma can.
But I can tell you what’s in alcoholic mind. And from the comments many others. If the music is not your cup of tea you can mute it and turn on CC. The words and visuals tell a very pointed story of day in the life of an alcoholic.
Dear Alcohol — Dax
https://youtu.be/k5ZtZEtDEGo
Okay Adam, here is what I understood from the song. That man is “getting waisted because [he] doesn’t want to deal with [himself].” That sounds like a method of escape. I guess I don’t understand why some people only use one method of escape. There are so many ways to escape (like Limerent fantasies, lol (sorry Momma)). Is alcohol such an effective escape that nothing else seems appealing? Is it ever more effective to face the thing that you are escaping? Sorry for my naivety. Also, today I am having struggles with two of my brothers about my mom’s condo. I feel so yucky about it. I keep thinking, “This is why people drink.” Funny thing is one of those brothers can drink. The other one is a Mormon Bishop so he can’t use alcohol as an escape. He wouldn’t anyway, too religious. But the drinking brother is an atheist unless someone dies, then he’s a Mormon while he’s mourning. My point is…wait, what is my point?…my point is, I really don’t understand alcohol, but I DO understand the desire to escape. I want to escape right now. I’m going running on the trail by my Mom’s condo probably for the last time. Gosh it makes me cry to think about it being the last time.
Adam, do you think if we knew each other in person that you and Momma would enjoy hanging out with me and my husband without drinking? I’m just curious. I like to play board games. BBQs and yard games are fun, too. We have targets for ax and knife throwing. Maybe you guys like that stuff. I wonder if something like that would be an appealing escape. Maybe it wouldn’t be enough without alcohol. I really don’t know. I’m just curious. Well, I need a friend right now because my brothers are hurting my feelings so I’m going to tell myself that you and Momma would have a BBQ with me and SO. Oh heck, why not throw in some of the other LwL commenters? I have a fantastic imagination, so we’re finally having our meeting and it will be happening in Lovisa’s head during her run. Just between us, we need to keep Lost in Space and Lost and Confused away from each other because they’re getting a little close, wink.
Adam, do you believe you could ever quit drinking? When you look at other alcoholics who’ve quit, what do you think? Do you think “maybe that could be me?” Or do you think “they must be different from me somehow, I’m just somehow wired different and I just know I could never change”?
I know you feel so stuck, you’re so angry at yourself, so guilt-ridden, you’re so frustrated at how long your limerence has lasted and how you can’t be the husband that you want to be to your wife. You want to change. But something is holding you back and I know you know what it is. It’s not LO. It’s the alcohol. Tell me it’s not.
I was talking with my psychologist this week and he was talking about the amount of internal change a person has to go through in order to overcome a limerence experience, in order to cope with family and marital traumas, even just to adapt to the usual changes of middle age and beyond. And he told me “you can’t even start to do any of that internal work if you’re not sober” (he knows I’m an alcoholic in recovery). He talked about how alcohol and drugs prevent the mind from ever making the kinds of changes needed to overcome something like limerence and to experience the kind of growth that we all want to experience for ourselves and for our loved ones. That the first requisite for true psychological growth and change is sobriety.
Add me to the list of people here who have really come to like you and care about you. And I hate seeing you stuck where you’re stuck, not able to move forward, not able to be the man you want to be. And honestly I have trouble imagining you ever getting through this limerence stuff if you can’t deal with the alcohol. Because underneath it all, it’s the alcohol that’s got you stuck, not your LO. She’s just a pretty distraction.
I believe that you can overcome alcoholism. I say that as a recovering alcoholic who knows a lot of other recovering alcoholics. I firmly believe it’s possible for anyone, you included. There’s nothing fundamentally different about you than about any of the rest of us. There’s nothing more wrong with you, nothing that makes it impossible for you to recover. You might believe that there is, that somehow you’re just broken beyond repair, that there’s no hope for you. That’s bullshit. That’s your addicted mind telling you lies to keep your stuck in your addiction. That’s not the truth. The truth is that you’re a beautiful human being with a lot of amazing qualities and an amazing wife and a lot of people who love you, and you have the power to get better.
And it’s 100% true that no one else can force you to do anything. No one can make an addict give up their drug of choice except the addict themself. But you do have a choice. You’re not condemned to spend the rest of your life doing the same goddamn thing over and over and over again. It’s easier to keep doing the same thing day after day. Change is f*cking hard. It’s really f*cking uncomfortable and painful. But it’s also the only way to become the man that you actually want to be.
Lovisa – haha yeah me and L&C are just proving why Dr L will never sanction the LwL summer convention. Honestly can you imagine all of us limerents in one place at one time?
But I like what you’re getting at in your post – when I was drinking, I couldn’t really imagine having fun without alcohol. I’d drink before going out to dinner, drink before going to a play, drink before hanging out with friends. If I was somewhere that I had to be sober, I’d be counting down the time until I could go drink. I’d have felt on edge throughout your sober bbq. I resisted quitting because I imagined sobriety to be this grey tapestry where nothing was actually enjoyable whatsoever. Turns out that was a complete lie as well, just like the lies I told myself about being destined to be an alcoholic for life, that I was just made that way and there was no way I could ever change. I’ve found life to be much richer and enjoyable sober, although it took some time and work to get to that point.
Anyway, I’m off to a work-related social event now with a lot of alcohol and a lot of attractive women, and I’m going to drink a couple of cokes and enjoy some friendly conversations and then go home and snuggle my wife. And I’ll feel tempted by the alcohol even though I’ve been sober 15 years, and of course I’ll notice the women, but I’ll be also be constantly in touch with my feelings about both and reminding myself to stay on track for one more day.
Lost In Space, Miss Lovisa, so as to not derail this comment section I will answer your posts in New Years Purpose since that seems to be the go to in general chat thread.
I feel so much better after my run! The LwL summer BBQ in my imagination was AMAZING!!! At first, we were at my house so we could do some ax throwing, then I smelled the BBQ food (I really did because the trail is next to an amusement park), and I thought that since it’s my fantasy, we will do whatever I want. I wanted to ride the Mamba at Worlds of Fun in Kansas. It was so fun! Everyone was there. The seat next to Speedwagon was empty and all of a sudden a new person landed in it. He looked kind of scared. He said, “I’m so glad I found you guys. I thought I was the only person who couldn’t stop thinking about a woman from my office.” Speedwagon said, “Let me guess, she’s about 15 years younger than you, you’ve never felt this much attraction for anyone in your life, and the way she looks at you is captivating.” The new guy said, “Yes! How did you know?” Speedy patted him on the shoulder and said, “You’ve come to the right place, friend. Buckle up because you’re about to ride an intense emotional roller coaster.”
Adam, I have to tell you something. Please don’t be mad at me, but you threw up on the Mamba. You were so upset about throwing up that you said, “That’s it! I have hit rock bottom and I’m never drinking again!” All of us cheered and Momma said, “Well it’s about time.” And you were suddenly sober (It’s my daydream and I can instantly make anyone sober, so there.)
Then some of us went running. I couldn’t for the life of me remember everyone who likes running so I had to make it up a little. All of the Lost people were the fast runners. I was like, “Slow down guys.” Then I noticed how nice Lost in Space looks from behind and I didn’t mind running behind him. Dang! Adam was running next to me in a high school track uniform. Limerent Emeritus and Frederico were on E-bikes. Emily wanted to ride an e-bike too, but I wouldn’t let her so she ran along with us. Summer and Momma ran together and they were having a great conversation, but I couldn’t hear them. My SO and both of my LOs popped in briefly and everyone was like, “wow, those are the men who captured Lovisa’s heart. It makes sense.” Suddenly, the Lost people were done running after 4 miles. I said, “What? Four miles? No wonder you were running so fast, it was a short run.” Frederico and Limerent Emeritus were having too much fun on the e-bikes and I wanted more mileage so we kept going. We did fifteen miles total and it was really fun. When we got back to the group, the theme song from Cheers was playing for some reason.
Allie finally showed up to the party. She was late because she got to use her hall pass with her LO and her SO approved 100%. She was in a great mood! It turns out that Rufio and Marcia are a great match in person. Awwwe, so cute. Limmy was there with her new boyfriend and he is delicious! Way to go Limmy. There were a lot of other people at the party: other commenters, LOs and SOs.
We ended the evening with a ride on Heimlich’s Chew Chew Train in Disneyland because it’s so cute! Everyone was like, “Seriously, Lovisa, you could take us anywhere in the world and you brought us on a child’s ride?” My eight-year-old daughter was with us and she said, “This ride reminds me of my childhood.” Everyone started laughing. Then there was laughter from “the audience,” and nineties sitcom music played as the credits rolled.
What a great run! Btw, Dr L has dreamy eyes.
Dear future reader, you can follow this conversation by clicking the link below.
I hope this link works.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-year-purpose/#comment-42941
Read the next comment that is addressed to Lost in Space as well.
Also, just for clarification… DmmitHardison Is Adam’s wife in real life. He calls her Momma on here, so I call her that, too.
Sorry I couldn’t make it to the gathering Lovisa. I was too busy chasing LO after work, trying to get her attention.
Some things never change..
Lovisa,
Change e-bike to golf cart and I’m in.
Lovisa, your description of our summer bbq absolutely made my night. You’re a great writer with a great imagination, and an even more amazing heart for all of us here. Thank you just for being who you are ❤️
Uuhhhh, Lovisa, I can’t run (maybe in your day dream I can) my right ankle is 75% fused, and even if it wasn’t, well let’s just say that I don’t trip, gravity, the ground and my floors just like me (it’s a running joke in the immediate family that my mom started, instead of the ‘smooth move ex-lax’ remark, mom would say “Well they don’t call you Grace for nothing” she was a spit fire sarcastic lady.) Stairs really don’t like me much at all! Walls and tables also jump out at me 😉
I’m not sure you’d want me to ax or knife throw with other people around, it’s been a hot minute since I’ve done that. I shoot a bow and bolts much better. 😉
Ha ha ha!!! Lovisa that’s so funny!
Mj, we missed you at the party, but I thought you were hanging out with your daughter because she wanted to spend time with you. (Remember, this is my LwL reverie so I get to make the rules). Btw, you were at the party, but I didn’t specifically name you. You rode the roller coaster with us before you had to leave to pick up your daughter. You were back by the time we rode the Chew Chew Train.
Limerent Emeritus, that’s a great idea! You get a golf cart.
Momma, I didn’t know about your ankle. I can’t believe you ran 4 miles on your fused ankle last night, sheesh. What were you thinking? Next time just ride in the golf cart with Limerent Emeritus.
Lost in Space, thank you for your kind words. I’m proud of you for keeping things in perspective last night at your party with beautiful women and alcohol. You did the right thing.
Thanks Allie, you should have seen the look on your face when you told us why you were late. Priceless. We all giggled.
Miss Lovisa
I would feel bad if I ever threw up on a snake. He never asked for that. Or are we talking about the fruity chewy candy? Cause Mamba is still one of my favorite candies even over Starbursts.
Also, I actually ran track in high school. I don’t have my uniform still and doubt I could fit it if I did. But I wasn’t very athletic otherwise and it seemed to get the ladies attention at how fast I could run then. At least for awhile. How else could a scrawny 120 lb kid get their attention?
Adam, the Mamba is a roller coaster at Worlds of Fun in Kansas City. It’s crazy fun! All of us from the LwL community rode it yesterday during the pretend BBQ.
https://www.worldsoffun.com/rides-experiences/mamba
It doesn’t surprise me that the girls enjoyed looking at you in your track uniform.
Miss Lovisa
I remember running around the track for stamina for an upcoming race event while the football team was playing a game. One of the football players that was actually nice to a skinny nerd like me came up to me and was like “Adam theyre killing us we need to score help us”. And Im like “I dont htf to play football!” And he said “Just stay behind me and Ill hand you the ball and you run it to the end and score just like you run your races”. I said ok. So he hands me the ball and I take off. Cept for there are these giants trying to stop me. Im bobbing and weaving like a boxer fearing for my life and just as I get to the end zone this massive giant of a dude just t-bones me knocking me into the air but I made the touchdown and they won. That event solitified why I will never played contact sports again. But for some reason now the cheerleaders noticed me and helped me off the field concerned I was hurt. I milked it not gonna lie. 🙂 “Adam ate you sure youre ok?” “Let me get you a Gatorade Adam”. You women will be the death of me long before alcohol.
That is a cute story, Adam.
DmmitHardison!
Hello- First off- no worries. You and I will get a quick mani-pedi while all the others are off running and then join for some BBQ and rides! I imagine we would have lots to talk about.
I am sorry missed your post. I have been on a device detox while I am on vacation. I wish the comments section of LWL was a little easier to follow. I loved your list of bands! That took me right back to middle school. I was and am an eternal music addict.
Thank you for sharing so many of your life experiences and feelings. I have been thinking a lot about you…
One thing your posts have been making me think about is how much the other side of the story is missing on this website. The power of your posts is the reminder that all the SO (and LO) might have a very different perspective on the things we write about.
My mother is a therapist. One thing she has always said is unless you are seeing both people in a couple, you will have a skewed perspective. She said there are so many times when she has been seeing a client and it seems like their spouse is an outright monster (she is an amazing judge of character), and then she meets them and is like… nope. I think about that a lot when people here are either complaining about their SO or on the other hand saying they have this great marriage when there are red flags left and right. I love this website, but I do worry that it is hard to be held accountable for ones actions when you get to control the narrative. But then it seems like it all comes out with the wash in the end.
I hope you are well! Thank you for your message.
Lovisa – I just finished a run and was thinking about your summer bbq. I’d like to make one amendment to your fantasy, with your permission of course!
So I’m your story, I was running up front with Lost and Confused and Lost Girl on either side of me, and I can catch you checking me out from the corner of my eye, and me and my new friends are bantering and laughing and the dopamine is high (wait is this your fantasy or mine? Anyway I approve 😀).
But then my SO comes running onto the trail and she’s not angry that I’m running with these other ladies, but she tells me that she’s started running again and wants to be my main running partner again. And she says she doesn’t mind if I run with other people from time to time as long as she’s always first in my heart and that she and I run across the finish line together. And SO and I run the last mile together and cross the finish line holding hands and talking about all the other runs we’ll do together in the future.
Song of the post:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3H2l9Lo-jPk
No Doubt – Running
Lost in Space,
I like your changes to my fantasy. You have yourself a deal!
Lovisa-
“I have a new injury.” Noooo. That sounds really unpleasant. I am so sorry that happened. I’m glad it isn’t worse… but errr… it is so frustrating when you hurt yourself doing what you love. Hopefully, you the treadmill training for your 50-miler works. Keep me updated. Personally, I am just in awe of all ultramarathoners. I remember when I was younger I volunteered at this all-night ultramarathon handing out water. I loved how relaxed all the runners were. They were just doing their thing. Listening to their music, taking a short water break and getting back out there. It was super inspiring. Definitely sending you healing thoughts. BTW- how did it feel when you were walking on the trail?
Also- thank you for your kind words. I appreciate your feedback.
As for Utah- I have never been as an adult- but have been DYING to go. I really want to take my kids. Part of me wants to go in the winter so we could ski, but part of me wants to go in the summer and hike! The choices, the choices.
I would love to hike in Kanab. Utah is like another planet. A good friend of mine lives in Salt Lake and posts the most gorgeous pictures. Heavenly.
As for our hike- 14ers actually refers to an elevation over 14,000ft not milage. There are a ton in the Rockies. Some are really hard to climb, and I wouldn’t even attempt them. I’m hoping to get some of the easier trails like Pikes Peak or Quandary Peak. But we’ll see. There is such amazing hiking there that I won’t be too upset if it is not in the cards. We’ve also had a few really scary experiences on mountains, so my husband and I have definitely scaled back some of our adventures. Also we are just getting OLDER- hopefully wiser? Nah. More like- is there a hot tub at the end of the day 😂
I just wrote Adam and am hoping to responde to LIS. This week is just nuts! I actually would like some advice on my limerence at some point- I’ll write later when things are quieter!
Hi Summer, no problem that you are busy, I have been there. We had about a 2-year period where our family schedule was planned to the minute because it was the only way we could keep up with everything. I remember my kitchen “closed” at 7:12 am and it would “reopen” at 11:30 am for lunch. 7:12, lol. I’m shaking my head in amusement.
Walking the trail was doable, but I looked silly holding my chest and I can’t get my heart rate high enough going downhill so the return trip isn’t a workout. So far, the treadmill is working because I can keep my heart rate up without running by setting it at the maximum incline.
Wow! I’ve never done a 14er. It seems like you could get altitude sickness doing that. I’ve climbed a mountain that is 11,000 ft tall, but the trailhead is like 6,000 ft so it’s not as impressive as it sounds. Holy cow I’m excited for you. I’m at the base of a mountain that is 8,700 ft tall and I’m at 4,700 ft. I love love love running it from my house. I don’t love the downhill, but the uphill is awesome! Will you guys be backpacking? I’ve never been backpacking, but I really want to. LO2 recommends that I not buy backpacking gear until I know that I will use it because it is expensive. I just have to find someone to go with that my SO approves of. My SO isn’t interested in backpacking, but he might do it just for me.
I’m ready to listen when you want to talk about your limerence. No pressure. Mine has been awesome! I think I’m done. I went a few weeks with minimal LO contact and it was hard at first, but it got better. Yesterday, we had a nice back and forth discussion about rain gear and it wasn’t triggering at all. I felt calm. I’m not experiencing a let down today. It’s like I had a conversation with a friend and not an LO. I hope it continues to be this easy.
I hope your schedule settles down.
Hi Lovisa-
Quick message before the day begins in earnest! (Also- I’m not complaining. I love my full, crazy life. Lot’s of great things happening at work and at home. But you get it- SO BUSY!)
Backing packing! Love it- but haven’t backpacked in years. When I was growing up, I would go on 4-7 day backpacking or canoeing trips during the summer. Then when I was older I did about two months through-hiking. That was hands down one of the best experiences of my life. It really shaped me and gave me a deep appreciation of what my body could accomplished when pushed and deepened my love of nature.
Now a days- we just do day hikes. My kids are pretty great. We have been taking them hiking since they were infants. The little one complains but gradual bribing of chocolate and the occasional audio book when things really get rough helps. My kids complain why can’t we ever have a vacation that does not involve exercise every day! I’m like- you lucky duckies that you have parents who bring you to gorgeous places! I remember you talking about hiking up to the frozen waterfall with your family. That is totally the type of thing we love.
As for backpacking now- what I recommend is doing a hut to hut trip. Basically, you stay at huts that have meals provided. You can still sleep in a tent if you want. I think they are the perfect blend of the backpacking experience without having to carry all the weight or worry about cooking food. Also- now I would never consider backpacking without renewing my wilderness first aid.
But I don’t know- you are such an amazing athlete you might really like the added challenge of carrying all your weight. There is something very satisfying about having everything you need on your back.
I’ve just gone soft with old age. 🙂
I am so jealous you live that close to a mountain. If I didn’t love my community and job I would move to be closer to the mountains in a heartbeat. Continuing to send healing thoughts. This might sound silly but what about water walking. Is that a thing? Would that help with the injury? I’m assuming swimming is out based on the location of your injury.
Have a great day!
Water walking, great idea! Thanks for all the great tips. I’ve never heard of hut to hut. Also, the best thing for my little one when she starts asking “are we there yet?” during hikes is singing camp songs or kid songs. She doesn’t sing along usually but she loves when I do it. There is a tip for you.
Have a great day!
I just found this website and just learned the term limerance. It explains so much. My LO has been a coworker for years. I’m a nurse, he’s a doctor, and it can’t get much more cliche than that.
My LE started about a year into working with him. He was friendly and well like by all the nurses and enjoyed joking around with the staff. He seemed to take great joy in getting me worked up about things and making me blush. I began to look for him when I worked and was ecstatic to call him if I had one of his patients. He ended up taking care of a family member and I put a lot of my trust in him.
He eventually got my number from a coworker and texted me. We texted periodically, usually me being the one to initiate. I would text him late at night when I was getting off work and he would call or text me early in the morning while he was rounding. I missed out on a lot of sleep hoping I would hear from him early in the mornings. We shared a lot of personal information in those exchanges. He would tell me what a good nurse I was and I was addicted to the way he made feel. The highs were high. And when I didn’t hear from him the lows were low.
Patients thought we were hilarious together because we would joke and bicker back and forth in their rooms. I had a few ask if we were married. My coworkers/friends that were nurses often made comments that he treated me/talked about me differently than he did other staff. Some insinuating that something more might be going on. I always replied we were just good friends and that he was married.
Of course I was completely infatuated with him. But I knew he was married and I had no plans of being the other woman. My daydreams revolved around his wife leaving him for some random reason or a mutual decision that they were incompatible. Of course I could see how much he loved her on social media. I knew I was delusional and pathetic pining after someone that couldn’t and wouldn’t reciprocate those feelings. And was right that he shouldn’t.
Anyway nursing is stressful and like most of my coworkers I ended up on antidepressants for depression and anxiety. Surprisingly the overwhelming urge to reach out to him via text wasn’t as strong anymore. I still looked for him at work but we weren’t having those personal text exchanges anymore and things became easier. One of my friends told me he asked if I was okay or if I had started seeing someone since he hadn’t heard from me in awhile. That of course sent me into an unhealthy thought spiral. I eventually came to the realization that he enjoyed the attention that a younger woman was giving him and was flattered by it. It made him feel good about himself that I was so interested in him. That helped me resist the temptation to text him.
We still saw each other frequently at work and had a friendly and cordial relationship but it didn’t have the intensity it once did for me.
I moved into a different position within the same organization and saw him less but still occasionally. I eventually went off my antidepressant for some medical reasons and started seeing him more in my new position and I was back to where I started. The intrusive thoughts, looking for him around every corner, the day dreams, and even worse the texting.
He recently left the organization we work for so you would think going NC would be easy. It just made me text him more to see how he was doing or to share something I know he’d be interested in. Every time I repeat “don’t text him” to myself but I give in to the compulsion. I’m back to feeling euphoric with every interaction and then pathetic and disgusted with myself for giving into the urge.
Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I can’t share with my friends because I know they would think I’m crazy. I’m reading the blogs hoping I can help myself out of this way of thinking.
Hi, Lost Girl!
To me your story sounds pretty familiar. Two of my XLOs are/were nurses. When I was single, nursed became my preferred dating demographic. I dated 3-4 of them. I married a teacher.
LO #2 was dating a doctor when I met her. He was a rival and I beat him out. Considering how things turned out, I did him a favor and he owes me. To be fair, he was 1000 miles away and I was 15 miles away. Neither of LO #2s husbands are/were doctors.
LO #3 was chasing a doctor, caught him, and married him. To hear talk, I think she only dated doctors.
One of the interesting things in your post was that an anti-depressant seemed to help you. Other posters reported mixed results on them. Have you read https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-serotonin/ ?
Welcome aboard!
Limerent Emeritus
Thanks for the link to the article. I was on sertraline for several years. Started it after I moved to a leadership position that was causing me to have panic attacks and severe anxiety (all of which lead to me seeking out my LO even more).
From that article:
“But if you talk to patients on antidepressants, you find that the drugs don’t generally cause happiness, they actually seem to flatten mood.
Boosting serotonin in this way stops the extremes of mood, both positive and negative, and causes a kind of muted insensitivity.”
Definetly true for me and seems to be what kept me from seeking out my LO while I was on it. But it’s hard to live like that and the side effects of the medication made me miserable. When I moved into a new role away from the stresses of bedside nursing and being in charge, my doctor (not LO, my actual PCP) and I weaned me off the antidepressant to see how I’d do. I did great in all aspects of my life other that the reemergence of my limerence. Sometimes I think I should give it another try and see if the side effects hit me less than they did before.
Hi Lost Girl,
I’m curious if intrusive thoughts about LO were intense during your antidepressant withdrawal. I think antidepressant withdrawal is what caused my obsession with LO2. I was desperate for relief from intrusive thoughts so I used transference to LO3. It’s much better. I avoided daydreaming about LO3 from the start which helped a lot.
Good luck! And welcome to our club.
Hi Lovisa,
There was no reply button under your comment so I hope you see this.
The intrusive thoughts were especially intense during the withdrawal. I imagine it was a combo of coming off the medication and seeing him more often in person. At least it felt like I was seeing him more often and yet still not enough.
He is the second time I have experienced limerence, my first LO was in high school through college. This time is so much worse though. Thanks for the welcome to the club although I wish it wasn’t needed.
Lost Girl
The involuntary NC is difficult. It has been over a year since LO left where I still work. While we never did the texting (outside of the occasional work related text) I do have her number and could call or text her. In my case, when I met LO it was the opposite of yours, she was younger and single and I’m married and older.
For me, as well, it was about a year into working with her (she moved over from a different department to the same as mine) before the limerence started. It is difficult at first when you don’t know what limerence is. It seems that you just naturally gravitate to this person. You think you are just being nice and enjoy working with this person. Like people asking if you and your LO were married, everyone in the office I work in knew I had a “crush” on LO. You can’t really see your own behavior at times because of the limerence. It all seems natural and innocent but its obvious to others.
“We shared a lot of personal information in those exchanges.”
This is the nail in almost every limerent’s coffin. For me it was that LO felt comfortable confiding in me. When I met her she had just been recently divorced from a POS that cheated on her. She would ask me relationship advice because “you’ve been married for 23 years you would know”. My rational brain was still present enough to not share too much of myself and my marriage but I was always there to listen to what she needed to share and give her the solicited advice she asked for. Soon I was fully invested in her and her life. I even met and got to know one of her daughters. As dear Miss Lovisa here on LwL says, she fulfilled my need to be present, preside and protect LO and her daughters. Damn you evolution!
” I eventually came to the realization that he enjoyed the attention that a younger woman was giving him and was flattered by it. It made him feel good about himself that I was so interested in him.”
There are many male limerents here in this position, myself included. LO was a very kind and nice young lady. For me, (can’t speak for others) her everyday kindness and sweetness got misconstrued by my limerence as something more. So every “thank you” and “you’re sweet” sent me into a spiral down the rabbit hole. It’s not unheard of that a lot of men meet limerence and mid life crisis at the same time. It plays at a primal need for an older man to still know that he is desirable and virile. And the attention of a young woman definitely does that.
” I can’t share with my friends because I know they would think I’m crazy.”
When I found this place I was so afraid to disclose to my wife because of the exact same reason. I hadn’t even ever heard of limerence. I wasn’t entirely sure myself it wasn’t just something some “quack” came up with. So how was I to explain to my wife of 23 years I have this addiction to another woman? And at first I don’t think she did believe me. Or at least didn’t believe limerence was legit. I think she thought I was just making excuses for the behavior she could see in me when it came to LO and she hadn’t even met her once.
The absence of limerence from common knowledge makes it very difficult for people to relate to. She has since come to be accepting and being supportive of my recovery. She even occasionally comments here as well. She has been more than supportive of my diligence to get over this. It will get better if you do want to get over this. People here told me that when I first came her 6 months ago. I didn’t believe them. But it has gotten better. The more determined you are the better it will get. You got this Lost Girl.
Adam
For you it was “she fulfilled my need to be present, preside and protect”. For me it was a desire to provide care, comfort, and to feel needed by him. You’d think I’d get enough of that being a nurse but apparently not. He was going through a personal loss when this started and we talked and bonded over that. Obviously he needed me, at least that’s what I told myself.
The personal details were shared on both sides but I collected them and cherished each thing he revealed to me. Giving it greater meaning to myself than than it had for him. It’s always a slap in the face when you’re hit with that reality. Early in my LE we had talked about our college experience, we went to the same university, though at different times since there’s about a 15 year age gap. Again another detail to bond over. Recently in a conversation our respective college experiences came up again and he told me he didn’t know we had gone to the same school. It’s absolutely soul crushing to be faced with the reality he doesn’t hold the information I share with him in the same regard as I hold his. And I know that’s completely irrational so then I feel stupid and guilty for feeling that way. These revelations always lead to a promise to myself that I’m going to end contact but I keeping breaking that promise and reach out again.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. It’s so helpful to read others going through the same thing and knowing you’re not alone. I’m hopeful that maybe there is recovery from this. Now I’m reminding myself of a 12 step group….Hi my name is Lost Girl, I’m a limerent and it’s been 3 days since my last contact….Or maybe more like confession.
LO would always be so surprised the information about her I retained. One time she was talking about the beautiful flowers her gentleman friend bought her. She was just going on and on about them.
I said “It’s because it probably had calla lilies in it and those are your favorite flower”
“Adam how do you remember that?”
“You told me that a while ago when you got sent some flowers here from some anonymous person.”
“That was like last year Adam.”
Yes it is difficult holding close to your heart things about them that they would easily forget about you.
Married male doctor here, limerent for my records clerk. My previous LE was for a trainee (a fellow) in our program. The LE before that was with a med school classmate. It’s a cliche for a reason, because this stuff actually happens a lot in health care. Take a bunch of like minded people, give them a common language and culture and mission, throw them into stressful situations together, schedule long hours at work… not surprising that this stuff develops!
I’m a primary care doctor working in a “safety net” clinic for low income patients. A lot of our patients are really sick, a lot have serious mental health conditions and substance addictions. I love the job, but it can be pretty stressful and crazy. And there’s a feeling that only other people working in the same setting can really “get it”.
One of my long time patients died last week. His wife called to let me know. Since LO is the person who handles my calls, she was the first to talk with the bereaved spouse. Then I talked with the bereaved spouse, and then of course LO and I had a long talk about how we were feeling, which was natural because we both were affected in similar ways, and of course that’s another little bonding experience for us.
I find it interesting that your LO seemed pretty open about his relationship with you at the workplace, to the point where he would even ask coworkers if you were seeing someone else. Me and my LO have taken great pains to be discrete at work and I don’t think anyone has any idea about our relationship – we’ve prioritized discretion partly to avoid hurting my wife, and partly to avoid damaging either of our reputations at work. Maybe the work culture is different where you are, maybe there’s enough separation between his home and work life that he’s not worried about stuff getting back to his wife, or maybe he just considers it a doctor’s prerogative to flirt with the nurses?
The other thing I’d say is that in both of my workplace LEs, I was always hyper-conscious of the power differential involved (whether doctor/nurse, doctor/clerk, doctor/trainee) and definitely didn’t want to be a “me-too” guy, so I was always really cautious about making sure to follow and not lead with any initiations and escalations in the relationship. I wouldn’t have asked for my clerk’s number or started texting her or started sharing deep personal things – she initiated all of that and I made sure to stay a step behind to make sure that she really wanted the relationship and I wasn’t pushing anything on her. I couldn’t tell from your post if it was similar or different for you and your LO – who would you say did most of the initiating and driving of the relationship?
Anyway, I think I’m just rambling a bit at this point and I’m not sure if any of this helps you, but I did want to say that I have some understanding of the particular issues involved in limerence in a medical workplace, and maybe I can provide some insight for you down the road.
Lost in Space
I worked inpatient oncology and still work in oncology, just in a different setting, so a very emotionally charged specialty. He isn’t an oncologist but a specialty that often gets/got consulted for our onc patients. So perhaps a bit of hero worship on my part.
I feel like he initially initiated by always asking for me to chat even if it wasn’t my patient. It got me hooked and I ran with it. He initiated the texting. He had heard I was interviewing for a position in a different specialty (I wasn’t sure my heart could keep taking all the loss in oncology) and wanted to encourage me to stay where I was at. Thought I was too good a nurse to lose. In that specialty out paths would have absolutely no reason to cross. I sometimes wish I had accepted the offer. After that I was almost always the one to initiate our text conversations.
I think think there were a couple things that protected our reputations. For him he was well respected and didn’t have any history of inappropriate behavior or relationships with nurses. We had plenty of those doctors and we all knew who they were. For me, I was viewed as a very innocent and naive person. I was, although nursing has definitely changed that. I was the youngest and only girl in my family and grew up very sheltered. I’m sure my upbringing is full of reasons why I’m prone to limerence. People’s instincts are to be very protective of me and it seems to come out in all my relationships with people, family, friends, coworkers, and romantic relationships. Very frustrating at times. I’m very capable of fighting my own battles. I was well liked by all my coworkers and leadership, very good at my job, and always the nurse willing to help out others. So while there were second glances at our relationship, people looked at the two people involved and didn’t believe we would ever cross into anything inappropriate. And our relationship was never sexual or physical. I can think of a few instances though where some comments were made that could of tipped is into that sphere had either one of us chosen to press the issue. Or at least that’s what my perception of things were. Who knows maybe my limerent mind imagined it. I don’t think to this day I’ve ever called him by his first name. I’ve always called LO Dr. last name or called him by his last name. That’s something to spend some time pondering why. Maybe it is the power dynamic at play.
As for him asking others if I was seeing someone it was one person he asked. I had/have my work besties. 3 nurses I was/am very close with. We all worked together and they shaped me into the nurse I am. 2 we’re older than me, closer to his age, and he got along very well with them. He asked one of them in private if I was okay or had started seeing someone since I had stopped texting him so much. He knew she was aware of the dynamic we had going on because she had called him out on the texting and if his wife knew about it and was okay with it.
As far as his wife, we didn’t and we don’t talk about her. It’s an unspoken agreement that we don’t mention her in our conversations. I think I only broke that unspoken agreement once or twice and it always made things awkward. She was and is very separate from his work life so I don’t think he had anything to worry about in regards to her finding out. It wasn’t unusual for him to get texts and pages at all times of the day or night from the hospital, especially if he was on call. But I believe besides our in person face to face dynamic, the texting and phone calls (in response to my texting) only happened when he was away from her.
I don’t know that I’m explaining things well or answering your questions. I feel like I get lost in tangents when it comes to LO.
Hi Lost Girl, thanks for the reply! I think you explained things well.
“I don’t think to this day I’ve ever called him by his first name. I’ve always called LO Dr. last name or called him by his last name. That’s something to spend some time pondering why. Maybe it is the power dynamic at play.”
That was interesting for me to read, because my LO and I had been in a pretty close relationship for months and I realized she’d never called me by my first name either – she rarely said my name at all, but if she did it was always Dr. ______. (on the other hand, I used her name every chance I had because to me it was the most beautiful name in the world). I asked her one time “so what do you call me in your head when you think about me” and she said my first name. Then a couple nights later she wrapped up a late night texting session with “goodnight (first name), sweet dreams” with a kiss-blowing emoji. Just that one little text, and I could literally feel the oxytocin release, just this warm flush through my whole body.
I think one thing about working as a doctor is that there’s often this feeling of being separated from everyone else in the workplace, and of sometimes being put up on this pedestal, when really we’re all just people. And one thing that I really like about my LO is that ever since we started getting close, she’s always been really interested in who I am as a whole person, and she feels like there really isn’t any difference between us, and it feels like we truly connect on a human to human level.
“He had heard I was interviewing for a position in a different specialty (I wasn’t sure my heart could keep taking all the loss in oncology) and wanted to encourage me to stay where I was at.”
If it helps you break your limerence, I think you could view this as selfish on his part. If he knew that your job was taking too much out of you and wasn’t sustainable for your wellbeing, but wanted to keep you around because he liked flirting with you, that’s kinda selfish, right?
I’ve actually spend the last few months actively helping my LO get into nursing school and find a new job – I’ve written her glowing letters of recommendation, given her very positive reviews to potential employers who call me, and I strongly encouraged her to take the last job that was offered to her because I knew it was perfect for her and would make her happier than the job she has now. I did all of this even though it meant she would be leaving me, (and that thought breaks my heart to pieces) but more than wanting her around, I just want her to be happy and to have the best life possible, and I recognize that path will necessarily take her away from me but I still want it for her.
“As far as his wife, we didn’t and we don’t talk about her. It’s an unspoken agreement that we don’t mention her in our conversations. I think I only broke that unspoken agreement once or twice and it always made things awkward.”
This means that you’re limerent for a carefully curated version of him – you don’t know him as the whole person that he is if he’s leaving out everything involving the person he’s closest to and spends the most time with. This helps to maintain the fantasy, but recognizing that you’re only getting access to one part of his being might also be helpful for you to pull back the projections and try to break out of the limerence.
In the early part of our relationship, LO and I would basically never talk about our SOs, unless it was her complaining about hers. Looking back, I realize I was intentionally avoiding mentioning my SO in many conversations because of precisely what you noticed – it made it awkward and killed the energy, because it was disrupting the fantasy. At one point, my LO told me that because I was always avoiding talk of my SO, it made it a lot easier for her to fantasize about me and her having a future together. Since we were both trying to stop ourselves from having destructive fantasies like that, we agreed to be more intentional about talking about our SOs – not to complain about them, but just to share fully about our lives. It’s been awkward at times for sure, but I think it’s also been a really good thing – it’s helped a lot to pull us out of fantasy land and into reality. It’s also meant that we really get to know each other more fully as complete people, and has made our relationship feel a lot more real.
One question for you if you don’t mind – are you seeing anyone or looking to find someone single and available? I’ve always thought for a single limerent looking to end an LE, one of the best strategies would be to get out there and start meeting new potential partners (who are actually available for a relationship), although I know that in certain phases of life that’s not possible or desirable.
Lost in Space
It sounds like you and your LO are in a more open and honest place than I am with mine. I have never explicitly told him how I feel and he has certainly never made declarations of feelings for me. It’s always been my interpretation of his actions that have lead me to believe it was more than strictly friendly. Although the limerence I have for him certainly colors those interpretations, so who knows how accurate they are.
I had gone on a 2 week vacation, participated in a physical activity on the first day and ended up having an accident. I was unhurt but it is typical of my clumsiness and really a funny story. I had told one of my friends this the day it happened and she was talking about it the next day at the nurses station. He overheard the conversation and called me after his rounds to make sure I was okay. I was traveling out of the country for the first week of my vacation and after he knew I was fine, told me to have fun and that he’d miss seeing me on the unit while I was gone. I spent that week out of the country going over and over that conversation in my mind. In my mind I knew that he must care about me, he just can’t say it. My second week of vacation I met one of my work besties in a major big city so we could do the tourist thing together. She asked me if I knew what was up with him. Said he had been in a bad mood that first week I was gone and he hadn’t been wearing his wedding ring. Friend and I didn’t discuss it beyond that but I spent a lot of that week fantasizing about the future. When I got back to work he was wearing his wedding ring again, if indeed he had ever not been wearing it in the first place, and his mood seemed fine. That sent me into a really low point but our relationship continued on as it had and I never asked him about it. I’ve always worried if I asked for too much he’ll get sick of me.
I didn’t stay in oncology because of him, but I’m not gonna lie, it was an ego boost to know he wanted me there. The selfishness is something I’ve come to terms with but hasn’t seemed to lessen my limerence. Example:
Early in this LE he had a parent dying. I was there emotionally for him and I checked in with him a lot during and after to see how he was. A couple years ago my dad died. He sent me a message to express his condolences but that’s about it. I took a few weeks off to deal with things and I saw him at work when I returned. He did ask me what happened and how I was. I broke down crying. Most people would take that as a reason to offer a hug, pat your back, or rub your arm to offer some comfort. For him it seemed to be a reason to increase the physical distance between us in the moment and offer me some time to be alone. I chalked it up to maybe he just isn’t capable of being physically comforting to someone in distress. I’ve seen him be warm and comforting to his patients but maybe he’s not able to do it on a personal level. About 6 months later I ended up working with his nurse from his office on something. We hit it off and of course he was a natural topic of conversation for us. He’s great to work for, treats patients so well….blah blah blah. She told me a story about how she had a really bad day in the office (mean patients). She ended up crying and how he hugged her and told her it was gonna be okay. That just hit me like a punch in the gut. He is capable of offering physical comfort, just not to me. I’m not worth the effort. We teach people how to treat us and I’ve just always let him treat me as a second thought, someone to make him feel better about himself. Our “relationship” is about him, on his terms, and for his benefit.
This still hasn’t stopped me from seeking validation from him. When I start to think this isn’t worth it he initiates an hour long phone call that makes me feel so good. This month I had something very big, stressful, and important to my current role going on. I reached out to him while I was stressing about it and he wished me luck on it. He hasn’t reached out to me find out how it went or if it was successful. I gave in last night and sent him a meme that kinda related to it and I’ve had no response from him. I just feel dumb and pathetic for wanting his attention. I feel like lately I spend a lot more time feeling bad about myself. This time I’m telling myself I’m really done.
It’s weird you asked if I’m actively trying to date. I just downloaded a dating app last week. I’m just trying to get the courage to launch my profile. I did the dating app thing when I was on antidepressants and had some luck but nobody I really sparked or connected with after a few dates so I just kinda gave up. I’ve been considering a drastic change, dying and cutting my hair to get me out of my comfort zone. But I’m a creature of comfort and don’t deal well with change. Wish me luck.
Hi Lost Girl!
Someone on here once used the phrase “LO mysteries” to refer to all of things that we’ll never know about our LOs, and that we just have to accept never knowing.
You’ll never really know how your LO feels about you or what you mean to him. Even if you were to straight up ask him (which I don’t recommend for multiple reasons), you’d likely just get the answer that he wanted you to hear, not necessarily the true/complete answer.
Clearly you and him do have some kind of relationship and connection – that seems pretty obvious and you have 3rd party verification from your coworkers. But beyond that… is he madly in love with you but is keeping himself distant because he doesn’t want to hurt his marriage? Does he have a mild infatuation with you but no real feelings? Is he just attracted to you and enjoys some flirtatious banter? Is it kind of a game to him? Does he enjoy your attention and the ego boost he gets from it and doesn’t really care about you beyond how you make him feel?
I’d say that any of these are possible, and again, you’ll never actually know. But there are some things that I think you do know:
– He’s married and you don’t want to be The Other Woman to a married man
– He will never consistently be there for you when you need him – he might offer a show of support now and then, but won’t be there for you day in and day out
– He doesn’t care about you as much as you care about him
– You’re never going to find peace and happiness and satisfaction and support and true love with him as the main man in your life.
Does all of that sound correct?
Sounds like you’re at a place now where he let you down (again) and you’ve decided not to initiate contact again. What will PROBABLY happen is that at some point in the future, he’ll miss your interactions and will contact you again – it sounds like he doesn’t want much of a relationship with you, but he does want to keep something going. So a few days or a few weeks from now, you’ll probably hear from him again – the question then is how do you respond.
Finally, for contrast, my relationship with my LO is a top priority in my life day in and day out, behind only my relationship with my SO. If she’s going through something stressful, I’m checking in on her every day and asking if she wants to talk. I can’t count how many times I’ve rearranged my schedule like working straight through my lunch break so I could clear out some time to talk with her on her drive home. I virtually ALWAYS have time for her. I don’t think I’ve ever left one of her texts unanswered for any amount of time. I remember ever detail about her and our conversations, and am very attentive to her. That’s because I have very strong feelings for her and I’m deeply invested in her and in our relationship. I think your LO has shown you repeatedly that he’s just not that invested, and that’s unlikely to change. Do you want to keep investing so much of yourself in someone who doesn’t reciprocate to the same degree?
Lost in Space
Thank you for your response. It was painful to read but were truths I needed to hear. I’m really tired of feeling so shitty about this whole situation.
I just need to not engage with him anymore. Since I’m the one who almost always initiates contact you would think that would be easy to do. But the compulsion to reach out to him is strong, especially since I can’t get my fix of him at work anymore. I guess that’s the addiction component of limerence at play.
I’ve changed his contact info to Don’t Answer in my phone. I suppose it would be better to delete it completely but I don’t think I’m there yet. I want to get there though.
This has been better than therapy, which I did try. It’s a lot easier to be completely honest with nameless faceless strangers than a therapist staring sitting across from you.
Thank you.
You’re welcome Lost Girl. I’m glad that it’s helpful to communicate here. This place has been immensely helpful for me as well. It’s just really nice to talk to other people who “get it” from lived experience.
It sounds like you’ve reached a point of seeing things pretty clearly for what they are, and are determined to move on and recover from this addiction. As we say a lot in addiction recovery, you’re sick and tired of feeling sick and tired. At first this relationship mostly made you feel good – now the good feelings are few and far between and the bad feelings are most of the time. No one wants to put themselves through that, and no one deserves that.
I’m sure it won’t be an easy path forward. He may reach out to try to keep the relationship going, and you’ll have to decide if you need to ghost him, or tell him plainly that you don’t want to talk with him anymore, or do the “grey rock” strategy where you give him brief, uninteresting responses to his texts and never initiate anything yourself until he finally loses interest and goes away. You’ll also certainly face a lot of compulsions to reach out to him – some days these will be easy to manage and some days it’ll feel impossible. For me, I’ve found it helpful to post on here when I’m feeling compelled to do something I shouldn’t, and sometimes I come on here and read Dr. L’s blog posts, and other times I come here and re-read my old posts to remind myself of the pain and suffering I experienced in the past, to remind myself not to go back to that place.
My hope for you is that you can minimize any self blame or shame that you might feel – be kind to yourself, forgive yourself, try your best to quiet any negative self-talk that might try to fill your mind. None of this makes you a bad person or unworthy or anything like that – it’s just a normal thing that happens to human beings (probably more often to empathetic, caring, feeling human beings) and it’s ok. You’re ok.
And my other hope for you is that you can find other positive activities to fill your time and energy, things that give you purpose and meaning and excitement in a real way. Lean into your hobbies and interests, spend time with friends/family, take time out to do nice things for yourself, and have faith that it’ll eventually get better.
Stay engaged with this site – post anytime you need support or encouragement or a pep talk or just to vent – there’s a bunch of people here (myself included) who care about you and want to help you get through this.
So the urge today to text LO is very real. An issue has come up at work today in relation to patient care and I will be the sacrificial lamb for the powers that be to fix it. I will be coming in on my time off to make sure the patient gets what they need for treatment since there’s nobody else that can or will. This is exactly the type of thing LO loves to hear about so he can go on one of his rants about the state of health care and how administrators don’t care about the well being of patients. It’s all about money…blah blah blah. All of course I agree with. Health care really is a scary place right now. But then he would tell me what a good nurse I am, how much I care about patients, I’ve got a heart for people, I should go back to the bedside, this organization doesn’t deserve me…blah blah blah. I desperately crave that praise and validation from him. I’m a people pleaser by nature, which is why I’m the sucker at work who usually says yes to everything, but it especially makes my brain happy when I please him. I thought I’d post here instead of giving into the temptation.
Hi Nurse Lost Girl,
Dr. Lost in Space here. The health care industry does suck! That’s 100% true, and our patients depend on people like you with good hearts and passion who truly care about the people and not the money. And the administrators depend on people like you doing the right thing and coming in on your day off to take care of a patient, and it’s wrong that they take advantage of you and probably won’t even give you credit for the good you do.
There, how’s that for a rant?
But you’ll come in and take care of the patient, and maybe they’ll express gratitude to you or maybe they won’t, but at the end of the day it doesn’t even matter because you’ll go to sleep tonight knowing that you did the right thing and that’s all that matters. You’re one of the good ones. You really are.
And I won’t tell you that you should go back to bedside nursing – I’ll tell you that you should work wherever you’re happiest and feel like you’re in the right place for yourself and where your heart tells you that you should be. You know that better than anyone else, including your LO.
Hope this helps 😊
-LiS
Btw I went all day yesterday without texting my LO. I initiated the most recent contact with her so I told myself I wouldn’t text her again until she initiated (your turn, my turn, your turn, my turn). But after not hearing from her since Friday (!!!) I broke down and texted her a little hi and a 👋. And that was 2 hours ago and she hasn’t replied! Before I texted her I was kinda missing her but mostly felt ok going through my day. Ever since I sent the text I’ve been feeling the anxiety steadily rising every moment that I don’t hear back from her. I’m guessing you can relate?
Dr. Lost in Space
Throw in a few expletives and mentions of RVUs and that would be almost as good as one of his rants! I think everyone in healthcare has an endless supply of gripes about the system and he is never shy about sharing them. Personally I could spend days going off on nurse/patient ratios and he would egg it on.
I like praise. Always have. It releases all the feel good chemicals in my brain and he was good at it. So thanks for the mood boost!
I’m sorry LO hasn’t texted you back yet, believe me I know the pain. I too feel like if I was the last one to text I shouldn’t be the one to text first, but I still do. Or if he took a long time to respond I feel like I should take my time to respond because I don’t want to be viewed as desperate. I don’t want him to think I’m just sitting there waiting for his text message. Of course I’m constantly checking to see if i missed the message because I actually am sitting there waiting for him to text back. It’s so exhausting!
I forced myself to look at pictures of him and his wife on social media yesterday. I have always avoided that. I needed an in my face reminder that he’s not mine, never has been mine, and never will be mine. It really helped reinforce why I’m going NC.
Hi Lost Girl,
How did it go with the patient today? Success? Hopefully you got a little praise from somebody?
I feel really lucky to work for a government run safety net clinic where I never have to think about RVUs. I’m on a straight salary and mostly just get to focus on taking care of the patients. There’s plenty of problems of course, but at least we never have to worry about RVUs. Yuck.
Nice work looking at the photos of your LO and his wife! That seems like a good deprogramming strategy. “Pulling back the fantasy and seeing the actual person” as my psychologist likes to say.
I have several photos of me and my wife on my desk in my office, so every time LO would come to hang out alone with me I’d feel all the pictures of my wife staring at us. She mentioned it once, back before we’d disclosed our feelings, something like “wow, you have a lot of photos of your wife here”. I almost responded with something like “yeah, she put them here to keep sexy coworkers away” but I kept my mouth shut. It’s true though – those photos might have subconsciously been the thing that kept us out of a physical affair. It would have been hard to cross the line with LO while standing in front of a photo of me and my wife from our wedding day!
I think my LO is on the outs with her SO again. She told me last week that things were getting pretty bad between them again – they’re divorced but living together and trying to reconcile, but it sounds like now they’re fighting all the time and he’s talking about moving out again. I can tell she’s getting pretty down and depressed. I’m going to have to resist a lot of rescue fantasy urges in the coming days and weeks.
Lost in Space
Oh no, my sacrifice at the altar of patient care isn’t til this weekend. One of our Oncs wants to start a new 5 day chemo regimen inpatient. And inpatient doesn’t have the chemo certified staff to administer it this weekend because inpatient is mostly travel and float staff, especially on the weekends. One of the hold overs from COVID is a massive nursing shortage at our facility and forget about chemo certification. Any way it’s Lost Girl to the rescue. I said I’d go in to hang it, monitor, and take it down for them so the patient could get their treatment. Management has been very thankful and my boss really is great.
I still don’t fully understand what RVUs are. The great thing about nursing is you just get to do your job and all the payment stuff is none of my concern. I just do everything I’m capable of to get a good outcome. Sounds like you get to focus on the patient where you are.
The photos did help and they reminded me what a dork he can be. Of course adorkable is my type but he and his wife are adorkable together. I remember once, before the texting started, one of the nurses I work with was teasing him about how he dresses. He said his wife picked out his clothes for him. It became a running joke that his wife dressed him like that to keep nurses from trying to seduce him. Much like the photos of your wife around your office. 😄
Your LO is divorced from her SO but living together and trying to reconcile!?! Wow that sounds like a complicated and messy situation all around. I hope it comes to a resolution that offers her the most peace and comfort and that you’re able to do what’s in the best interest of her and yourself.
“ Your LO is divorced from her SO but living together and trying to reconcile!?! Wow that sounds like a complicated and messy situation all around”
Yeah, that just barely scratches the surface of how messy and complicated everything is for her. Her whole life has been really really hard and complicated. It’s amazing to me what a sweet and hard working and fundamentally good person she is despite everything she’s been through.
And I’m sure that having me in her life just makes things more messy and complicated and probably isn’t best for her in the long run, but at the same time she has a lot of trouble loving and accepting herself and I keep thinking that it has to be good for her in some way to have someone like me know all about her, all the good and the bad, and still find her completely likeable and loveable, and to want to be part of her life as much as I can be, and to give her at least one person in her life who is just consistently kind to her and good to her. And so while I’m trying to not push anything on her when she wants space, I’m just not willing to be the one who ends things or to not respond warmly any time she does want contact with me.
Hope things go well this weekend! Hopefully it’ll actually be kinda nice – you can go in on the weekend, save the day, get some overtime pay, and hopefully it’ll be pretty chill with just one patient to take care of so you can read a good book or just relax and chat with your coworkers (or fantasize about your LO – no!!).
And I hope for you that an adorkable SINGLE guy shows up in your life sometime soon 😀
LIS,
“I think my LO is on the outs with her SO again. She told me last week that things were getting pretty bad between them again – they’re divorced but living together and trying to reconcile, but it sounds like now they’re fighting all the time and he’s talking about moving out again.”
What could possibly go wrong..?
After I broke up with LO #2, a nurse, a coworker’s GF, a nurse, fixed me up with one of her buddies, a nurse.
She was the second nurse I’d dated and we didn’t get along anywhere near as well as I got along with LO #2, although she fit the demographic pretty well. A divorce nurse with (an allegedly) dirt bag ex. Oddly, absolutely no glimmer, nada.
One day my coworker told me that I needed to stop seeing her GF’s friend. I asked why.
“Her ex moved back in with her and she’s trading sex for cocaine.”
I never called her again and she never called me.
LO #2 and I were still friends at this point. One day she calls and asks if it’s ok if she gives my number to one of her traveling nurse buddies who’s doing a stint in the area. I said sure.
A few weeks later she called. We set up a meeting and she asked if she could bring her roommate. No problem.
We met. I didn’t care much for LO #2’s friend but I really liked her roommate. She became LO #3. She was the one who chased the doctor and eventually caught him.
What makes LO #3 memorable was we had a little too much to drink. LO #3 says the Tacoma Narrows Bridge is really cool {https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Narrows_Bridge_(1950)). In my less cogent state, I told her that you can walk out on it. There’s a parking area about 2 miles away. LO #3 said, “Let’s do it!.”
He friend had more wits about her but she wasn’t driving. We went to the parking lot. It was after the bar closed. We parked and walked out past the west pylon. LO #3 said that she wanted to look over the rail. I told her that wasn’t a good idea. She insisted and I held her by the belt as she hopped up and leaned over.
People in cars stopped and began to get out. I told them that everything was ok and she was a tourist with bad judgment. I told her that if we saw flashing lights, we probably would all end up in jail. No cops showed up.
Moral of the story: You gotta watch out for nurses.
Limerent Emeritus
Hey now we’re not all crazy! I’m pretty boring and lacking in drama, well besides the whole limerence thing. But that’s internal drama damn it! Admittedly I know and am friends with a few nurses that make less than stellar life decisions and have a few red flags. But for the most part we’re a decent bunch.
Maybe you just put out the vibe that attracted the Venn diagram of crazy and nurses. Like a bat signal. 😆
“Maybe you just put out the vibe that attracted the Venn diagram of crazy and nurses. Like a bat signal.”
I think it was the other way around.
Not one of them pursued me, I pursued them. They flashed the bat signal and it was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpWy0nNeSWU
Nurses were my preferred dating demographic. I was really attracted to CCU/ER/OR nurses. There was something about that mix of technical competence and compassion that I find enticing. Probably the engineer in me. The more technical they were, the more attracted I was.
LO #2 started as a ward nurse in a VA hospital. She went to the CCU at that hospital and several others. She later moved into oncology and did a tour in the experimental treatment ward at NIH. She told some really grim stories. She ended her career in radiation oncology.
Whatever else I say about her, she LO #2 was smart, dedicated, and well-respected.
I feel things starting to turn with LO again. After the last month of her being really warm and friendly and wanting to be in contact with me all the time, she’s withdrawing again. I’ve come to realize that the state of our relationship really does depend a lot on her mental health. When she’s happy, she wants lots of warm contact with me. When she’s in a depression, she withdraws into herself and cuts me out, which I hate because I so desperately want to be the person she goes to when she feels down, not someone she cuts off during bad times. But I’ve come to realize that her coping mechanism when she’s depressed is basically to just withdraw from everyone and everything, and that it’s not personal about me at all.
She’s been edging back into depression for the last week or so. I know her so well now that I swear I can pick up on her depression early just by the tone and punctuation in her work messages. Then her responses to my personal texts get slower and less effusive, she initiates less, she doesn’t want to chat on the phone or in person… then she starts going home early with migraines or just not feeling well… and of course all I can think about is how to make her feel better because my whole life is basically a big rescue fantasy and depressed women with sad backstories are my raison d’etre, but I know damn well from experience that when she’s in this state I can make things worse but I can’t make things better. So I need to just let her know that I’m here anytime she wants to talk, and then otherwise just back the f@ck off and not smother her with my anxious attachment and my need to fix her. She’ll come back to me if and when she decides to.
A weird thing I’ve discovered about her is that when things are going more or less ok with her SO, she’s more open to a warm relationship with me, and when things are really bad with her and her SO, then she pulls away from me. You’d think it would be the other way around, but I think that when things are bad between them, she just gets really depressed and withdraws into herself and doesn’t want contact with anyone, plus she starts ruminating a lot about when he cheated on her and that obviously makes it a lot harder for her to carry on an emotional affair with me. On the other hand, when they’re getting along ok, then she’s happier but she’s still not getting her emotional needs met because he’s so emotionally distant, so then she gets warm and close to me – it’s like when he’s providing the basic foundation of security and stability in her life, then she’s able to enjoy the higher level connection stuff stuff with me. That’s my current theory anyway. It could be totally wrong too. Sometimes I think I understand her completely and other times I think I don’t understand her in the slightest.
If she does pull away again like I expect, I’m gonna try to just be cool about it and not get too down myself. I already thought our relationship was over forever a couple of months ago, so it’s like all the warmth of the past month was just a surprise gift that I didn’t expect or deserve, so I can’t be too upset if I lose it again. That’s what I’m trying to keep telling myself anyway, as well as reminding myself that in the past she’s only come back to me warmly when I let her go and gave her space, and any time I tried to pursue her during down times it just made her pull away further.
Meanwhile, life is pretty darn good with SO. We’re just really getting along well and enjoying each other. Last night for example we had the babysitter for the kids, and all we did was walk the dog and do some grocery shopping, but we were just having so much fun together talking and joking and bantering. It felt great.
I’ve noticed that the married limerents on this site can be subdivided into two groups. Some of us have fundamentally good marriages with good SOs and good relationships with our SOs, but maybe something was missing at the exact time that an LO glimmered for us, and we got pulled into limerence for no particular good reason. And then some of the other married folks actually have some pretty significant issues in their marriages like a completely sexless marriage or an emotionally or even physically abusive SO. I feel like in those cases the LE actually makes a lot more sense because in those cases the LO is a clear opposite of the SO – for example a kind and gentle LO with an angry and abusive SO, or a sexy and passionate LO juxtaposed with a passionless and indifferent SO. That kind of situation makes sense.
But for the ones like me where I’m blessed to have an SO who is actually really great, and a marriage that’s actually really strong and fulfilling, it’s like “why am I still involved with this other person?!?” Is it just chasing dopamine pure and simple? Trying to relive that first high? Am I just greedy and like having multiple attractive women in my life? Am I staying involved with LO mostly out of obligation at this point? Is it all just rescue fantasy/savior complex stuff? Do I get a little thrill from being in an illicit relationship, even if it’s not physical? Probably a little bit of all of those…
Lost in Space
I have a question for you. Is your LO also limerent for you? I know you both have discussed your feelings and put boundaries in place to keep anything physical from happening but I wondered if she also suffered from our mutual affliction.
I know when I was having episodes of depression I would withdraw from my LO. Firstly because I was afraid to show him that side in fear he would think it was too much to deal with. I wanted to see the happy bubbly girl who was uncomplicated. And second and most importantly if he did give me emotional support and empathy it would almost make it worse. To have that but know it would never be more would make my depression worse. It was self preservation. Don’t get me wrong I shared with him plenty of problems and annoyances but never when I was depressed and super vulnerable. Just my two cents.
Hi Lost Girl,
I think you really hit the nail on the head there! I do believe she was/is limerent for me as well. I’ve never explicitly discussed the concept of limerence with her, and I know all of us limerents want our LOs to be mutually limerent for us as well, but in this case I really do believe it based on objective data. I’m addition to her general behavior over the past year, some specific clues include her explicitly telling me at various times that she’s been trying to make herself stop fantasizing about us being together, that she used to always re-read our texts looking for meaning, that she rehearsed conversations with me in her head…. that all sounds a lot like limerence, no?
“I was afraid to show him that side in fear he would think it was too much to deal with. I wanted to see the happy bubbly girl who was uncomplicated”
My LO told me a couple months ago that she wished she’d never told me about her mental health, she said “I only want you to know the good side of me”. And of course I’m like “no, I’m glad you feel safe sharing all of you with me, I want to know you as a complete person and I think you’re wonderful as the complete person you are and I want to be here for you in bad times as well as good times”. There were actually quite a few times early on in our relationship where she’d tell me things about her prior traumas and relationships and mental health and then act really surprised later that I still wanted to be close with her. But to me, the more I got to know her the deeper my feelings for her got – nothing she ever told me or showed me scared me away at all, it just drew me toward her more strongly. But then again, I grew up with a depressed mom and a mentally ill sister and married a woman with recurrent depression, so I obviously have a big rescue complex for women suffering from depression.
“And second and most importantly if he did give me emotional support and empathy it would almost make it worse. To have that but know it would never be more would make my depression worse.”
She’s told me stuff like this too – that when I show her how much I care for her and love her, it makes her sad because it can’t be all the time and it can’t be forever. And I know that’s true! If I was actually available and could be her husband and be there for her for real, then I really do think I’d be good for her – not that I could magically solve all of her problems, but I could help her feel loved and supported and safe (she tells me a lot that I make her feel safe) so that she could work on herself from a place of security. But I can totally believe that talking to me a couple times a week and feeling loved and cared for but then going home to a cold and distant and kinda emotionally abusive SO every day would almost be worse because it’s like getting a little taste of what could be but not really being able to have it.
I’m feeling pretty committed to just letting her determine the amount of contact we do or don’t have. I’m not going to be the one to cut it off (even though I know rationally it might be better for both of us in the long run if I did) but I’m also not going to actively pursue her when she withdraws. But I always worry so much about making her feel like I’ve abandoned her, like she’ll think that if I stop contacting her that it means I finally got tired of her issues and gave up. And she should know by now that I don’t feel that way at all and I never will, but I still worry a lot that she’ll think it, especially when depression is filling her head with all kinds of negative thoughts.
What do you recommend? Should I just hang back and wait for her to initiate contact? Should I text her in a couple of days to just ask how she’s doing? Should I tell her that I can feel that she’s struggling and ask if there’s anything I can do or if she’d rather have me give her space? Should I stop by her desk with a snack and a smile?
Lost in Space
Oh that’s a hard one. It definitely sounds like she also suffers from limerence. Unfortunately with the situation with her SO she’s the one in the more vulnerable place. When/if her SO moves out what is she left with? I don’t say this to make you feel bad, but you’ll be in your happy relationship and she’s gonna be miserable because now she’s alone and you can’t give her everything she wants and needs. It’s incredibly soul crushing to be in that position. And I’m sure that is part of why she’s pulling away.
That being said, in her position, I would appreciate a message from my LO that he was thinking of me and offering me support during a hard time. I may not have taken him up on the offer but it would have meant a lot. But ultimately you know her better than any stranger on the internet does.
“I’m feeling pretty committed to just letting her determine the amount of contact we do or don’t have. I’m not going to be the one to cut it off (even though I know rationally it might be better for both of us in the long run if I did) but I’m also not going to actively pursue her when she withdraws.”
Truthfully I think we’d all be better off if we could cut off our LO. I know! A lot easier said than done. I think not being able to fulfill the full potential of the relationship leads to a lot mental and emotional anguish for us all.
“But then again, I grew up with a depressed mom and a mentally ill sister and married a woman with recurrent depression, so I obviously have a big rescue complex for women suffering from depression.”
It’s amazing how much our families and childhoods can give us long lasting issues. I seek approval and words of affirmation because I didn’t get it growing up. A big reason I sparked with my LO. But ultimately I know I can’t be dependent on him for my self worth and you can’t be every woman’s knight in shinning armor and rescue them from themselves.
All of this to say I have absolutely no idea what you should do. I suck.
Hi Lost Girl, thank you!
“ It definitely sounds like she also suffers from limerence”
I actually forgot to mention one of the biggest pieces of evidence that she’s limerent- she remembers everything! I mean, I’m pretty freaking limerent for her and remember the majority of our interactions with great detail, but she still surprises me by remembering all these little details of conversations we had weeks or months ago. A few months ago, she even described in detail the first time we met, what she thought when she saw me, the conversation she had with a coworker where she tried get more information about me and they argued about which celebrity I looked like. That first meeting was 6 years ago!
Another thing I thought about is that sometimes when she pulls away, she’s modulating her contact with me to keep her feelings in check. Once she told me we needed to cut back our contact because “it’s too hard not to get tempted to do something I’d regret when we’re talking and texting every day”. Another time “there’s things I really want to say to you but I know I shouldn’t so I just keep myself in my little bubble”. That’s something to consider now as well – me and her had been having a lot of contact over the past few weeks and she might now be feeling the need to dial it back for that reason as well (although at this time I still get the impression that it’s more depression related).
“When/if her SO moves out what is she left with?”
Honestly I think she’ll be happier. Their relationship is pretty terrible and is the source of most of her anxiety and depression. It was always bad, pretty much right from the start, I think he’s on the edge of emotionally abusive, but then got completely broken when he cheated on her and briefly left her for another woman a few years ago. They’ve been trying to reconcile but it’s just so broken. They even tried couples therapy and THE THERAPIST called it off after two sessions, said it was futile to keep trying. But she’s still trying, in part because she wants an intact family for her kids and in part because she’s been with him since she was in high school and has never known anything else and is just scared of change (this is all stuff she’s told me directly)
We were talking a few months back about coming to terms with me and her never being together, and I told her that my hope was that either she could somehow get to a good place with her SO, or that she could find someone else who would treat her like she deserves to be treated. She laughed and said she’s not even interested in a relationship right now, that between her kids and nursing school and still working, that’s enough and she doesn’t feel like she’d need a relationship at this point in her life if things end with SO.
So that got me thinking that if she does separate from him and decides to just focus on the other parts of her life for the next couple years, that maybe there could be a role for me that could be mutually satisfactory. Like maybe she doesn’t want a full relationship for awhile, but would still like someone to talk to at the end of the day just to talk about how her day went, and to have someone care about her and cheer for her and make her laugh. And I’d love to volunteer for that! I could realistically see myself texting with her throughout the day every day and talking with her on the phone for an hour most days of the week. Could that meet her needs at a particular time in her life? Maybe… Could we continue that for long without feeling we wanted more? Maybe… Would it be ridiculously hard and painful to untangle when she eventually was ready to move on to a real relationship with someone. Yes, yes it would be. But maybe still worth it?
Anyway, I think today I’m just gonna text her a friendly hi around lunch time. I’ll know from her response if she’s happy or depressed. If she’s happier today, I’ll just banter with her a bit. If she depressed, I’ll tell her that I can sense she’s down and let her know I’m here to talk if she wants to but no pressure if she doesn’t. How’s that sound?
Lost in Space
She is limerent for you. I know I remember every single thing LO tells me with embarrassingly vivid detail.
It does sound like she would be better off if her and her SO made a clean break of it. He sounds awful. It’s no wonder all your protective instincts are firing for her. If a therapist is telling you the relationship is broken and beyond repair that’s pretty bad. Nursing school is challenging enough without having to deal with the emotional chaos he is putting her through. After I graduated college I went back to school in my mid twenties for nursing and I was amazed at the people doing it with kids. She’s a trooper.
“So that got me thinking that if she does separate from him and decides to just focus on the other parts of her life for the next couple years, that maybe there could be a role for me that could be mutually satisfactory. ”
Maybe. It’s definitely a time in her life where she needs emotional support and a friend. But you’re not just a friend. As a single limerent with a married LO I will always want more than he can give me, and ultimately it leaves me unsatisfied and unfulfilled. Even if he could give me more, my own morality and religious upbringing, would stop me from proceeding with it. Hell I even feel guilty for the emotional relationship we have shared. If you feel you and her a strong enough to never let it develop into a PA it might work. But that would need to be a very frank and honest conversation if or when he’s out of her life. Also at that point, if you become her main or only source of affection and emotional connection is it going to detract from your SO? Of course maybe you’re already that for her. You two already seem to be very honest about your feelings towards each other, just make sure you’re being honest with yourself as well.
I think you’re most likely going about this the right way. Offer her support but not actively persue. I truly wish you well and that you find the answer that works for everyone.
Thanks again Lost Girl. Your perspective is really helpful for me and you give me good insight into what this limerence experience might feel like from the other side (minus the sh*tty SO part).
I sent LO a text around lunch time today asking if she felt like chatting today. She said not today because she’s been having a rough week. I texted back that I’d been sensing that she was feeling pretty down this week and asked if she wanted to talk or if she just wanted me to give her space. She said maybe talk next week, that she just needed time to process some things. I told her that sounds good, that she knows how much I care for her and that I’m always here for her, and that I’ll just wait until she wants to talk and until then I’ll just be sending positive energy her way. She said thanks with a 😊 emoji.
So I feel pretty good about that interaction – she knows I picked up on her depression, that I care and that I’m here for her anytime, and that I’ll just hang back until she wants to talk. At this point I feel ok not initiating any more contact until she does – I feel like I’ve done the best I can for her so I can be at peace with that.
I stumbled across this website by accident and have spent the last few hours reading/relating to all of the stories posted above. Selfishly, its comforting to know that there are lots of individuals across the world experiencing the same limerent feelings and in similar situations as one of the hallmarks of this condition is to think your situation is ”unique” and different from all the other limerent stories.
Upon reflection of reading multiple stories above, it was refreshing to see how positive and supportive everyone is. I guess there is no real objective to this post other then to commend you all for supporting each other. I am relatively young being 25 however I have experienced this debilitating feeling for most of my life. I have come to just accept the feelings at this stage. I am currently in a limerent phase at the moment (over a year at this stage) for my manager at work. I know it is completely irrational as the age gap is considerably high (15 years) and they are happily married but I just can not seem to shake these feelings off. I am in direct contact daily so I can not avoid this person and go no contact. I have tried keeping the conversation strictly professional and business however that came across as cold and I was actually questioned by LO asking me what was wrong with me. I guess I am just at a crossroads and I am unsure what my next step is. To make the matter even worse I am friendly enough with their SO and get sent multiple pictures when they are out which further compounds the limerent feelings.
Apologies for the rant, I actually feel slightly better after even typing that out. I am considering leaving my job as I am at my wits end with the situation. I guess if anyone would be kind enough to shed some light on what they think, I would be extremely grateful. If you made it this far thank you for reading my story. I would like to end this by offering some advice that I have found helpful in dealing with limerence however unfortunately I have not found the ”magic formula” if it exists. I wish you all the best in your journey through these difficult feelings !
Mango
I never found being too “professional” with LO (also a co-worker) helpful. It made me feel guilty for singling her out for something she was more than likely unaware of. While most of the office proclaimed I had a “crush” on her, no one else really thought it was more than that. And LO probably could see that too. I didn’t find out about limerence until after LO moved on to another job last year. So she inadvertently initiated the NC.
I know what you mean about his SO being friendly with you. I met LO’s daughter (she was divorced when I met her) and got to know her well enough that LO and her even played a prank on me one day at work lol It’s difficult when your LO unknowingly pulls you into their lives without knowing what is going on in your head. They just like you as a person and want to share parts of their lives with you. But for the limerent it is so much more than that. For me it was that LO’s ex was toxic, and LO and her daughter had no one to preside and protect them. That was instinctual for me as a man. Every other female co-worker of mine had a husband/partner to do that for them. LO didn’t. Damn you evolution!
As far as leaving your job …. I can’t say. It has been over a year and I am still trying to shake lingering limerence off. Going NC, you leaving your job, helps to a degree, but in the end you still have to face that your limerence makes your relationship with LO so much more than it is. And that my LO has never reached out to me in over a year …. like the song says “How can you leave without regret, am I that easy to forget?” There are many roads still to travel in this limerence but every positive step to recovery is a step, no matter how small. We are here for you if you need a listening ear.
Adam,
Firstly, thank you very much for taking the time to reply and read my message I truly do appreciate it although it is hard to convey that over messages online.
”I never found being too “professional” with LO (also a co-worker) helpful. It made me feel guilty for singling her out for something she was more than likely unaware of.”
I never looked at it in that way before. That makes a lot of sense. I tend to follow the generic advice on multiple forums in which they outline to keep conversations at work strictly professional but I never factored in how that would come across to the LO that has done nothing to deserve this perceived cold treatment.
”I met LO’s daughter (she was divorced when I met her) and got to know her well enough”
Wow, that must have been extremely hard as I can resonate and see how the integration into her family adds another layer to the limerence making the feelings grow in intensity. How do you feel now after a year of NC with LO ? I see that you have said you are still trying to shake these feelings off.
”you leaving your job, helps to a degree, but in the end you still have to face that your limerence makes your relationship with LO so much more than it is”
This is a hard home truth. Although I know you are completely correct in that statement and I know it deep down myself, it is still hard to fully let go and accept this. I have had numerous LO over the years however I am starting to come to the realisation that it is not actually the person itself that we crave but the feeling we think will be obtained if we ”get” this person.
I have delved into Reddit, Quora and google searches and into rabbit holes helplessly searching for a comment which would justify telling LO my feelings (which I would never do). I know deep down I have to address the fundamental issue as to why I have developed this pattern of having LO for multiple years. Moving job would help in the short term but most likely the same pattern of developing feelings for a new LO will develop unfortunately.
”We are here for you if you need a listening ear.”
Thanks very much once again. Likewise, I am hear to listen to your story and anyone else too. I am delighted I have come across this website. I find limerence exhausting. From the fantasies, the over analysis of every text message/verbal communication its like having another full time job haha
Mango
” I tend to follow the generic advice on multiple forums in which they outline to keep conversations at work strictly professional”
And to a degree that advice is sound if your intent is to just get through your LE. But at the same time, like a fishing net we dragged LO into this position, not the other way around. They are (for the most part, there are manipulative LOs) innocent collateral damage from our limerence. If anyone should face unpleasantness or hurt it should be the limerent that jumps on the grenade. At least in my opinion.
“Wow, that must have been extremely hard”
Very. I mourn missing out on seeing her grow into a young lady and much as I miss LO. And especially for me. I always wanted a daughter. We had two boys and both were premature so it was too dangerous for my wife’s health to try again. I think that was a particular enticement, to try and be a father figure to her. And LO once told me “I wish her father cared about her as much as you do”. Talk about throwing gasoline on an already roaring bonfire.
“I have to address the fundamental issue as to why I have developed this pattern of having LO for multiple years.”
You are very much astute in recognizing this. There is more of a reason you develop a LE with someone than the actual LO. When I realized why I developed this limerence for her, I could better address that issue so that I can get through this limerence. And I know if that issue doesn’t get addressed by all parties involved than LO is just going to linger in my heart and/or I am in danger of future LE’s.
Also I would very much like to praise you for you recognizing your LO’s happiness by respecting her marriage. That’s very gracious of you. It shows that you really do care about your LO more than feeding your limerence. It seems that your rational brain is still functioning. And I know how difficult that is. Especially after LO started seeing another man. You’ll find I like to quote songs a lot. There is a song called “How Do I Tell Her” where the singer laments to the “other woman” (or LO) how to tell his wife/partner about them. In the song he says, speaking of the other woman (or LO) “everything seems right whenever I’m with you”. If that ain’t what it’s like be around LO ….
How Can I Tell Her — Lobo
https://youtu.be/pFZ3vr4Eh6A
Adam,
Thank you for your kind words.
” And LO once told me “I wish her father cared about her as much as you do”. Talk about throwing gasoline on an already roaring bonfire.”
I can only imagine how intense the limerent feelings were after this disclosure. You said that your LO has not reached out in over a year. Do you feel that your intrusive thoughts about her have diminished in severity or as they as strong as ever ? it probably most likely depends on a lot of variables like mood, life events etc ?
”Also I would very much like to praise you for you recognizing your LO’s happiness by respecting her marriage.”
Thank you for your kind words. I could not live with the guilt if I made a move on this person. Her SO is a really nice guy and I talk to him quite a bit as I use to work with him. I suppose as the saying goes ”time heals all”. I guess I just have to ride the wave.
I just listened to the song. I am a sucker for country music/sad music which further intensifies the limerent feelings 🙁
Mango
“I can only imagine how intense the limerent feelings were after this disclosure.”
At the time, yes very intense. I literally couldn’t think of a response. She asked if I was okay. And said yes and I’m sorry that is way it is for her. But in hindsight, as I thought it about it after an intrusive thought, I can see that it was more a commentary about her ex’s absence in his own daughter’s life than it was thanking me for being how I was with her daughter thanks to our good friend limerence.
“Do you feel that your intrusive thoughts about her have diminished in severity or as they as strong as ever ? it probably most likely depends on a lot of variables like mood, life events etc?”
The last one I had was the one I mentioned above. My wife and I were cooking and all of sudden I got hit with an intrusive thought of when the boss had fajita catered for lunch that day. LO called me in from the warehouse to eat. I had been out there for some time and it was in the middle of summer, 90 something degrees. When I got in the break room I went to make a plate and she insisted I sit down and she would do it. She first brought me two waters and told to drink one down while she made my plate. (And she remember just how I liked my fajitas made.) My wife (who I have disclosed about my limerence already) held me while I cried thinking of not seeing her again. She tried to redirect my thoughts (she knows about intrusive thoughts due to past traumas of her own) with questions that would take my mind of LO. I haven’t had one since, which was about 3-4 months ago.
Even at my age I am still a gamer. Right now I am playing LOZ: Breath of Wild (for the hundredth time lol) and Warframe. I find when I am not spending time with my family or at work, it helps to keep my mind focused on something so it can’t wander to thoughts of LO as much. Some nights it helps and other nights it is more difficult to focus. I haven’t really found a reoccurring factor as to why certain nights are more difficult than others.
“I just listened to the song. I am a sucker for country music/sad music which further intensifies the limerent feelings”
I am too with the sad songs. I am not a huge country music fan but my wife has opened me up to more of it. I found the country of the 90’s, what I grew up hearing, was the stuff that I didn’t like. My wife got me listening to stuff a lot older than that. This is one of my favorite songs of country ever. And I liked it long before LO and limerence. But I think limerence was a life lesson I needed. So even if I could go back I wouldn’t change a thing.
“You got your dreams to follow
But if I had the chance tomorrow
You know I’d do it all again”
I Wouldn’t Have Missed It For The World — Ronnie Milsap
https://youtu.be/n5UlmNae9bU
Hi Adam,
”My wife (who I have disclosed about my limerence already) held me while I cried thinking of not seeing her again.”
Wow, it seems like you have a hell of a wife that can offer you support and guidance during those feelings. That is a blessing.
Thank you for the tips regarding video games. I cant say I am much of a gamer however I might give it a go. I suppose keeping your mind busy and occupied keeps the thoughts at bay.
Again thanks for your help and best wishes on your journey.
Hi Mango
My LE is very similar to yours. I was in my late 20s when we first started working together, there is about a 15 year age gap, and he’s married. Sadly mine has been going on for a decade with about a 4 year break when I was on antidepressants. I’m nothing if not loyal. Don’t be me. You can read my experiences if you want, they’re the last couple threads before yours. The thing I regret most is letting the relationship intensify emotionally through texting. I sometimes wish he had never gotten my number from another coworker. I’ve just started my no contact since he left the organization in the last year.
I too just recently found this site and am finding it so helpful and the people very supportive. It’s nice to have a place to unburden yourself with like minded people. Honestly I’ve kept all this internalized for years so I feel like my posts are a form of therapy. Hope you find the community you need here!
Hi Lost Girl,
Thank you for taking the time to read my story and nice to meet you !
”My LE is very similar to yours”
Yes I did read your story I remember it vividly as I could see the striking similarities in our situation. Forgive me if I am wrong, but your story was regarding a doctor you work with and you are a nurse ? If I recall correctly he was also treating a family member of yours too ? I can only imagine the complexity that added to the limerence feelings and further intensified them. I also take Sertraline too. Do you find it helpful in terms of limerence ? That is probably a silly question to ask, I take it for depression but I was kind of naive to think this ”magic pill” will help it ”all go away”.
I am really sorry you are experiencing this for a decade at this stage. If it is any comfort, I too have had this much of my adult life with different LO’s. How long have you been on NC with LO since he left the organisation ?
”I sometimes wish he had never gotten my number from another coworker.”
I second this and will go one further – I wish I never even met this person in the first place haha. I however am a firm believer that everything in life happens for a reason. I would love to be more of help however I think it would be like ”the blind leading the blind” if I was to suggest anything at this early stage of processing these limerent feelings.
”It’s nice to have a place to unburden yourself with like minded people.”
I could not agree more. I have found reading peoples stories a breath of fresh air. It is comforting knowing other people experience similar situations in life. Again thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you !
Hi Mango
Yes on both the doctor nurse dynamic and the treating a family member. Of course the treating a family member came after the limerence.
I really did find the sertraline helpful with my limerence. I started it for a combination of anxiety, depression, and panic attacks. All completely unrelated to LO. Nursing kinda sucks a lot out of you and it completely amplified my natural tendencies towards anxiety. The happy side effect was that I didn’t seek out LO anymore. We still worked together and had a friendly work relationship but it wasn’t what it once was. But eventually I couldn’t deal with the physical side effects of the medication any more and I had moved into a less stressful position so I was weaned off. Sadly the limerence for him came roaring back.
“I second this and will go one further – I wish I never even met this person in the first place haha. ”
😂 I can’t quite go that far because LO is a really good person, a great doctor, and really helped me become the nurse I am. But I do wish I was wired differently so limerence wasn’t something I experienced. Then I could just enjoy him as a good friend.
He left the organization the end of last year, but my NC has only been like a week. We texted and talked a lot since he left, probably more than when he was here. I wish you luck with your own journey!
Hi Lost Girl,
”Nursing kinda sucks a lot out of you and it completely amplified my natural tendencies towards anxiety.”
I can only imagine, it must be taxing on the mental side and also physical body.
”But I do wish I was wired differently so limerence wasn’t something I experienced.”
haha me too if only… This limerence gig is exhausting at times.
”We texted and talked a lot since he left, probably more than when he was here.”
That must be hard. Do you intend to keep to NC or if LO was to text you again would you reply ? Probably a silly question to ask as I know myself I would be texting them back straight away haha. It is a hard decision to make and one that most likely I will have to make to whenever the day comes that I move job.
Best wishes to you also.
A week of no contact and LO just texted me tonight to send me a TikTok he said reminded him of me. Lost in Space called it when he said he would eventually initiate contact, apparently it took 7 days after he never responded to my last text message. I ignored it for all of five minutes before I looked at it. I did like his message but did not engage more than that. That’s progress for me! Before I would have taken it as an invitation to engage in a long drawn out text conversation or phone call. I guess I’m going the grey rock road where I don’t initiate and make any or all replies short and boring until he loses interest. The angry and hurt part of me wanted to tell him to keep ignoring me but I know rationally he doesn’t deserve that. It’s not his fault I feel this way. Also that would require more interaction and a conversation I don’t want to have with him. I keep posting here as an act of catharsis.
“The angry and hurt part of me wanted to tell him to keep ignoring me but I know rationally he doesn’t deserve that.”
LO (a former co-worker) never contacted me via text or social media. I never did myself. It is a trap that I seem very much has helped me get through this limerence since she left the job a year ago. I see how much this affects limerents here and I am so glad our work relationship didn’t escalate to that. I am guilty of checking her Facebook since she left but I have never liked or commented.
In all the frustration and bitterness I have felt, I realize that she has possibly no clue what she did to me. Or more pointedly what I did to her. The fantasy was in my head no hers. She didn’t deserve the cold treatment just because my head wasn’t on right. Good on you recognizing that Lost Girl. It’s a really good realization to your limerence.
As King Floyd would say “You’ve become a sweet taste in my mouth”. And who doesn’t like sweets? Kudos to you for resisting those sweets Lost Girl. Lord knows the temptation is constantly there.
Hi Lost Girl,
How did the weekend overtime work go? Hopefully it wasn’t too stressful, and you were shown some gratitude, and you got to go home feeling fulfilled from helping someone (plus time and a half)
What do you think you’ll do next regarding your LO? Are you feeling pretty committed to not initiating any more contact with him? You think he’ll keep trying or even escalate if he stops hearing from you, or do you think he’ll take the hint and/or just lose interest and stop contacting you soon? Would that come as a relief at this point? I’m wondering if you’re reaching the point where extended periods of NC are starting to feel like a welcome relief more than anything, and any initiation from his side is actually starting to feel unwanted.
I kind of felt that way on Friday – I hadn’t been expecting to have any contact with my LO that day since she’d told me she didn’t want to talk with me until maybe next week, but then I briefly saw her on Friday when she brought me some paperwork (I was in a group of people so we didn’t actually talk other than her handing me the papers and saying have a good weekend). And I was actually having a good day up until then and was feeling calm and pretty content, and then the rest of the afternoon after seeing her I was filled with anxiety and distress and I found myself wishing I hadn’t seen her at all. Of course, I’m still hoping against my better judgement that she’ll get warmer and closer with me again next week… but in your case, I wonder if you’ve reached the point where you’re just really ready for your LO to be out of your life for good?
Adam
I definitely make a conscious effort not to be angry at him because ultimately I am responsible for me and my actions and feelings. But I also don’t think he’s completely innocent in this situation. He initiated the texting, phone calls, and outside of work contact. But I chose to continue and engage with them. I’ve never expressed to him my feelings towards him but I do believe he is aware it’s more than just friendly. A few years ago I needed a rather routine surgery and he did it for me. When we were talking about it at my office visit I expressed concern about saying something inappropriate coming out of anesthesia. He told me he would make sure to stay away during my immediate post surgical recovery time. He was true to his word and checked on me a few hours later when my head was more clear. I shudder to think what could have come out of my mouth if he had seen me in recovery.
Lost in Space
The weekend went okay. Had a little problem with the PICC line not having blood return Sunday. A little alteplase and it started giving me blood. Good thing too cause I’m not about to give a vesicant chemo through a peripheral. Patient and their family were known to me and are always wonderful. So pretty good! I’m off until after the holiday so I’m enjoying the next few days.
I really do think I’m committed to going NC with LO. Although it doesn’t help that the universe keeps throwing stuff at me that I know he would enjoy hearing about. But so far I’ve resisted. I really am tired of all the emotional ups and downs. I deserve to be happy and to be a priority for someone who returns my feelings. I do think he will eventually fade away if I don’t engage.
I’m sorry seeing your LO brought out all your anxiety and distress. It’s amazing how the briefest of contact can do that for us. I wish peace for you and that you, all of us, can get over our limerence and live lives of happiness and contentment. Is that too much to hope for?
Lost Girl
“. He initiated the texting, phone calls, and outside of work contact. But I chose to continue and engage with them”
That is one thing that I am very grateful LO never did to me. Or has since she left. That would have been a very difficult temptation to resist if she initiated after hours communication. For the most part LO was very professional but if the entire office could see it in me, my wife included as well, than I am sure LO knew something was going on in my head about her. But if she ever did anything to garner attention from me in her own way she was very subtle about it. For the most part I like to think LO was innocent in my limerence but I didn’t have a clear head so it is hard to figure out in hindsight.
” I shudder to think what could have come out of my mouth if he had seen me in recovery.”
Yeah the subconscious can definitely betray you. Mine manifested in my sleep. I would talk about LO and mention her name a lot in my sleep which is where my wife’s suspicions started I would imagine. Nothing like catching your wife’s attention by saying another woman’s name in your sleep.
Adam, I’ve done worse than saying LO’s name in my sleep. I’ve called my SO LO3’s name twice. The first time I didn’t know if it was because I spent the day with my brother who has the same name as LO3 or if it was because I was texting LO3 at the end of a marathon when my SO called me. I told my SO I was sorry and that I thought I called him LO3 because I spent the day with my brother. But I wanted to be honest, so I told him that I had been texting LO3 and it’s possible that is the reason I called him the wrong name. He was very understanding. The second time, I was asking him a question about a different person who also shares LO3’s name, but to address my SO I said, “Hey [LO3] …”. The look on his face was priceless because this happened soon after disclosure. I said, “It’s not what you think. I’m asking you a question about one of the students named [LO3].” We were on the yearbook committee this year and there was a problem with a picture that didn’t match up with a name. I was addressing it with my SO. His expression changed when he realized what had happened. Zoinks!
Hi Lost Girl,
”I ignored it for all of five minutes before I looked at it.”
Haha, well look 5 minutes is better than nothing I guess right ?
” I did like his message but did not engage more than that. That’s progress for me!”
Well done ! It can be very tempting to go into a full blown conversation however its great that you are setting limits for yourself.
”The angry and hurt part of me wanted to tell him to keep ignoring me but I know rationally he doesn’t deserve that.”
I hope to take a leaf out of your book and develop that level of maturity regarding the situation. I still find myself getting upset or angry over the level of communication at times. I guess that is just a stage in the limerence journey.
”I keep posting here as an act of catharsis”
Me too lol. It is nice to know other people are in the same boat. However I do not know long term if it is the best method of dealing with limerence. I am worried that becoming too reliant on forums like this or talking about the LO is just rekindling the limerent feelings and this cycle will never end 🙁
All the best !
Your outlook is refreshing, Mango. As for your last paragraph, I think that you could be right.
I’ve been at it too long!
With hindsight, I think it’s good to look at discussion forums as a stepping stone. There is a lot of handy information on this one though…
Frederico
”With hindsight, I think it’s good to look at discussion forums as a stepping stone. There is a lot of handy information on this one though…”
I completely agree. I really think it depends on the individual. Personally, this website has been a blessing for me. I have only recently discovered it and have found it invaluable and comforting to know that other people experience limerence. There are some really empathetic, considerate people on this website. I really found it moving at how considerate the people on here are. They really wanted to listen to each-others stories and although maybe not necessarily providing advice all the time, but a virtual ear to the person in distress.
However, the other side of it that recently dawned on me is that by talking about the LO, reliving this stories etc – are we not just rekindling these feelings and in some essence keeping this person alive in our minds in order to avoid the loss that we may feel if we let them go ? (I know letting go easier said then done). For me it is like a safe place. A form on ”mental masturbation” as replaying these stories, interactions, analysis of text messages provides some level of comfort to a certain degree. It is like a drug. Feeding the wrong wolf again and again keeping the LO alive in our minds.
That is just my 2 cents on it. There are a lot of people of this website much older and much wiser than me that most likely have arguments that dispute these views. I have experienced limerence for multiple LO’s in the last 10 years of my life. It may be deemed as selfish (yes I know they do not deserve this, the LO never asked for this etc) however the only one true way I have ever overcome previous LO’s was complete NC and blocking them. Also getting out of close proximity to them whether that be a job etc. I know there is fundamental underlying issues at play here that if not addressed this limerent cycle will just continue in the future. I am fully aware of this as I am experiencing it. Apologies for the rant. I am just at wits end with this current LE.
All the best in your journey. God bless.
@Mango33
I think that’s why it’s called “Living” with limerence. The tools here that Dr.L puts out are invaluable as hell. Not only that, but the Community is positive and engaging. There is no pressure. You just come and go as you please. LO can drive me positively nuts sometimes, but at least I have this side of a forum to help keep me in check. And it helps me to realize I don’t have to go off the deep end. Which sometimes I want to. Believe me. I so do…
Btw, I did respond to your question the other day. Don’t know if you read it yet..
Mango
“However I do not know long term if it is the best method of dealing with limerence. I am worried that becoming too reliant on forums like this or talking about the LO is just rekindling the limerent feelings and this cycle will never end 🙁”
I’ve also had similar thoughts. Am I just trading one addiction for another? But right now it’s serving a purpose and seems to be helpful. Hopefully I can take what’s useful and move on. I wish you the best as well
My two cents after discovering this place 6 months after I last saw LO I use to think the same too. But another 6 months later I see there is no denying LO had an effect in my life, my marriage and even my children. Limerence came down on me like I was Whitley Strieber. I can’t deny that. But much like him a out those big eyed bastards I also can’t stop talking about limerence. People need to know. More people need to know so they don’t suffer. Strieber got publicly crucified for his claims. No one believed him. Even after writing a book about what he experienced. And I imagine much like his experience, for most people its hard to conceptualize limerence. Ominous big eyed gray bastards or a big green eyed sweet talking woman both brought two men to their knees. Other people need to know so they don’t have to suffer. And much like the nights my paranoia sets me on high alert those bastards are after me, I have a partner to help me through this. She is still by my side, holding my hand. If I can help even one person ….
Hi MJ,
Yes I seen your latest comment I replied to it yesterday. It is further down the bottom of this page apologies.
Hello Mango33. Welcome to the site. If you have read any of my story so far, you know I am limerent for a much younger female co-worker. (I am 52, she is 28) Age for me, has never been a factor. Although some might disagree. What I know and see as evidenced, LO prefers older guys anyway. So I do not find this creepy, and really consider it a non-issue. Irrational maybe? But I don’t care.
In your case, I don’t find a 15 year age gap all that bad. What is bad is that they are married. Which may even increase your limerence toward them. It also probably won’t help that you engage with their SO and get pictures. But is that the end of the world? I don’t think it is. I guess it all depends on the level you want this LE to consume you. A lot of my limerence is self-inflicted. I however wouldn’t recommend pursuing this person. But that’s just because I feel like marriage and limerence is a whole other monster. I am divorced and so is my LO. I’m ok with that.
I’m not one to give the best advice. I think we are all bearing our own crosses here with our LOs. There is no magic formula, as you mentioned.
Plenty of good reading though and advice here from others. So I invite you to please keep coming back when you need us. It does help to have this community to vent with, as you have already experienced.
You will probably hear from the real Veterans of the site later. They are regulars here and Good People I might add. I am at work now and will
check back in then.
Hi MJ,
Thanks very much for taking the time to read my story. I find the site sometimes confusing to navigate to each persons story but I am sure I have read it as I spent hours reading/relating to everyone stories.
How is your relationship now with you LO ? Do you remain in contact with them ?
”In your case, I don’t find a 15 year age gap all that bad. What is bad is that they are married. Which may even increase your limerence toward them. It also probably won’t help that you engage with their SO and get pictures.”
Yes I agree regarding the age gap. I am 25 however she is most likely 38/39 at a guess. I would never make a move on her as she is in a happy marriage and it is not the ethical thing to do. I suppose at the moment I am just trying to digest and process these feelings and emotions I have. I think the thing that kills me the most is that LO will never know how I feel about her.
Again, thank you for taking the time to comment and listen to my story. I look forward to listening to your stories and provide a virtual ear.
Welcome Mango33!
I noticed that you are limerent for a woman who is 15 years older than you. There are a few ladies on LwL who are in their forties and are trying to figure out why younger men are drawn to them. In my case, I seem to be a magnet for 20-somethings, but I’m pretty sure it’s just friendship. Can you tell us why a younger man would be drawn to an older woman? I’m just curious.
Best wishes with your limerence.
Hi Lovisa,
Nice to meet you albeit virtually. Thank you for the comment and reading my story.
”Can you tell us why a younger man would be drawn to an older woman? I’m just curious.”
Sure thing I would be happy to answer that. I suppose it is hard to provide you with an independent objective answer as my personal answer is going to be plauged with bias, however for me I find the maturity level of an older woman really attractive.
I also grew up with having older sisters so I find it easier to interact socially with woman older than me. It is actually quite weird as I am terrible with social interaction with women my own age.
I need to get a ”grip of myself” and start to come to the realisation that this is not a feasible pursuit as personally in my situation as I am the younger person, it is not desirable for an older woman to find a younger male attractive as being younger we do not ”bring much to the table” as we are just starting out in life in terms of career, house, kids etc. We are at different stages in life.
I would be interested in what you think of younger guys being drawn to older woman as you have said above that you have had experience with this regarding individuals in their 20’s.
Again thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing your story.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Mango33. I’ll answer your question, but you won’t like it and I’m sorry. The thought of a younger man seeing me as a potential mate confuses me. I can’t make sense of it. I have a very attractive running friend who is young enough to be my son. I’ve seen him in his underwear (or it could have been a swimsuit or shorts, Idk) when we did cryotherapy together. His body is amazing. I can see how he would be appealing to girls his age, but I have no attraction for him. None. But some of the other 40-something ladies on the site have LOs who are much younger then them so I know it happens. Also, my sister had a romance with a much younger man a few years ago. They aren’t romantically involved anymore, but she still loves him very much. In fact she sent me a picture of him this morning. He was holding his third newborn baby. The reason she broke it off with him was because she wanted him to experience fatherhood and not just to be a step-dad to her kids. She made a personal sacrifice out of love for him. Also, my son’s therapist is a lot younger than his wife of many many years. It absolutely can work. I just don’t understand it. I see younger men almost as children. I’m so sorry, but that’s how I feel. I enjoy men who have experienced life. The conversation is different. Oh but I knew a much younger man who had some depth. I could probably could have enjoyed him if I had been available. We shared a surfboard that had been left in our mutual care by a friend who left the island where we lived. My friends called him my “pool boy” which offended me at the time, but I think it’s funny now. He had no idea they said that. They were just trying to make sense of why Lovisa showed up to surf with a younger man. Lol, it’s just because we shared a board. Anyway, he had some depth. I enjoyed talking to him. He often surprised me with his wisdom. But I tend to be attracted to older men in general. My current LO is a few months younger, but past LOs were a few years older than me.
I don’t know if that helps.
I am impressed that you respect your LO’s marriage. I think you could find happiness with an older woman who isn’t already in a long term relationship. If you are drawn to older women, I think it’s fine. You need to check in with yourself and really know whether you want to sire your own children because that gets tricky with an older woman. I encourage you to think about that because it is so important. A woman who loves you will be heartbroken if she prevents you from becoming a father. I know. My body doesn’t create life. It only worked once so we adopted our other four kids. I hate that I robbed my SO of the opportunity to sire his own kids. My SO lovingly says he would rather have me than kids who share his genes. But I still feel shame because of my lack of fertility. It is important and worth thinking about.
Best wishes!
Lovisa,
Thank you for your honesty in your reply. Although hard to accept, I completely understand where you are coming from and my rational brain would agree with your logic as seeing younger men as ”children”. I firmly believe that is how my LO perceives me. At the moment I am just trying to process the embarrassment and shame I feel towards the ”special treatment” I would give LO. I would work overtime to help her out on projects, buy coffees, birthday presents etc all in the hope of getting that sweet dopamine hit of her validation and praise. When I reflect back on it now it kind of fills me with shame and guilt. I know LO does like me as a friend and she always has my back in work and we get on really well with each other.
Can I ask what in terms of depth what did the ”pool boy” have or what qualities drew you to him in comparison to other younger men that did not have the traits ?
Your point regarding older women and having kids is duly noted. I fully get where you are coming from regarding this.
Thank you for shining some light on the situation for me !
Hi Mango33, it makes sense that you feel embarrassed for the special attention you gave your LO, but I suspect she is fine with it. She probably likes it. Did she seem bothered?
I will gladly tell you what I liked about the “pool boy,” that set him apart from other young men. Our conversations had depth. He frequently surprised me with his wisdom. Let me share an example. He told me that one of his female friends said she intends to marry a rich man so she doesn’t have to work. Pool Boy was okay with that idea at first then he said, “But you don’t like to cook or clean or take care of kids, who will do the domestic stuff?” She said, “I’ll just hire a maid.” He asked, “Why would your husband marry you instead of the maid?” She said, “I’m more attractive than the maid.” He replied, “If I were him, I’d marry the maid.” Lol. I love that story. He had these surprising nuggets of wisdom all the time that left me speechless. My friends were like, “Who is this kid?” I was like, “I don’t know, weird huh?” He was so unique. He was authentic, too. He didn’t alter his behavior around other people at all. He was unapologetically himself. I wonder what ever happened to pool boy. He’s probably doing well. He had his head on his shoulders.
I hope that helps. I also noticed that you mentioned intrusive thoughts in another post. They are the worst! There is a video on YouTube that helped me with my intrusive thoughts. I’ll share it below. Another thing that helps is that I try not to daydream about my current LO. You might want to think of ways to redirect your attention when you start thinking about your LO.
How to Deal with Intrusive Thoughts
by Mark Freeman
https://youtu.be/laeYq51SYA0
Good luck!
Hello Mango33,
A different view from Lovisa’s here. There is a similar age gap between me and my LO. He is the younger one.
I have two other young men who are showing me attention as well – they made me realize . They invite me on walks, out for coffee, lunch, all sorts of things. And they are persistent! I think they are even a little younger than my LO. I’ve been pretty careful not to lead them on, but frankly, I enjoy the attention AND I enjoy their company. They are full of energy, extremely intelligent and going places with their careers, and I love hearing about their plans for the future. It is utterly refreshing. My LO and one of these young guys are extremely easy on the eyes as well. More is the question why they would be interested in an older woman, haha. I am perfectly okay looking but not the thin, beautiful older women you see in movies or novels where you can sort of see why a young guy might fall for a gorgeous older woman? I’m just an ordinary, well enough looking woman in her forties, with maybe a touch more charm than average. But I think, an older woman is simpler in many ways. I’m not looking to tie these guys down, I don’t have a biological ticking clock so I’m not assessing them to see if they are good providers, I’m just friendly and interested. Lovisa has a video to some guy who has a pretty compelling theory of why younger men and older women have a period of time in their lives when they are well-suited based on their dating market value (it sounds terrible I know, but its a great graphical argument). Maybe she can share it again. Also no idea where that whole conversation about older women-younger men was between me and another lady who had younger LOs, if someone know, please link to it, Mango33 will probably be interested.
I just wanted to say: You do not need to feel shame about whatever lovely acts of service you do for your older LO. It is appreciated. I only ever find it sweet, and it is lovely to be treated so nicely – by anyone. I don’t take it for granted, even if the guys are not LOs for me. Also, don’t put yourself down by thinking you don’t bring much to the table – yes, young guys tend to be poor. But you are all worthy, fantastic human beings who have friendship and care to offer. The world is a better place for anything nice we can do for one another, and your LO appreciates anything you did for her, I am sure.
Hi Lovisa,
”Did she seem bothered?”
No quite the opposite. She was always extremely thankful.
”If I were him, I’d marry the maid.” Lol”
Haha that is a good one. Again thank you very much for the tips and the youtube video link. I will be sure to watch it.
Best wishes on your journey !
Hi Older But Not Wiser,
Thank you for the reply. Can I ask you what does your LO have that the other two younger guys that you mentioned do not have ? Did any of these guys ever confess their feelings for you ?
Again thank you for your kind words and advice. It is greatly appreciated.
I wish you all the best on your journey !
“How is your relationship now with you LO ? Do you remain in contact with them ?”
Unfortunately I do not have contact on a daily basis LO.
What happened was earlier in the year, her Manager moved to a Satellite building our company operates next door to where I still currently work.
I knew they always got along well so it really didn’t surprise me when LO left in early February to go work over there. So now I am NC, kinda by default. I still see her now and then when she comes over to see her friends at lunch. Or if I park next door and watch her go in to work.
LO and I never really got acquainted that well. What set the limerence off for me was a smile she gave me noticing her as I walked by the office one day. It was like a limerence meteorite sent by Cupid, and it hit me head on.. After that, there was killer eye contact we would give each other. Usually initiated by me, but there were plenty of times I caught her already checking me out. This went on for months. Where it gets weird though, is she never really reciprocated that much on any approach I made. I work as a Tech on the floor.
She works as an Analyst in the office and there are windows looking into the office, by a corridor hallway, that we have to pass, to go in and out of the building. I can’t even count how many times we always looked at each other upon my walk-by. It was usually a daily thing. It almost seemed like a game we were playing at one point, to see who would look away first. Usually it was her, because I loved to get caught staring at her. But sometimes I looked away too. (Sometimes her stare would freak me out.)
I know she sensed something was happening. I just thought it was good, clean, mind-game-playing fun. And I thought for sure we’d meet up at some point.
Yet any time LO was out of the office, either at lunch, going to her car, or even on the plant floor, any approach I ever made, she never allowed me to follow through. I got a few hellos and how are yous to her and she was decent, yet somewhat cold at times. (I still don’t understand it, to be honest.)
Many regulars here on the forum said they thought she was trying to figure me out, or that they thought she might sense a danger. Which to me doesn’t make sense because I wasn’t trying to be a creep. A few times I thought I could approach her on the floor, in a completely controlled, safe environment, with People around and still upon seeing me, she would go the other way or get on her phone and ignore me. I even talked to her friends. Which I thought might normalize me, but it didn’t.
(I never asked them either because I didn’t want them in on my business or talking to LO about me. I’m past the high school drama crap.)
So anyway, I feel a sense of being responsible for her leaving,to go work next door. But not entirely. It has made me incredibly anxious and depressed because nobody in my life, that I ever crushed on, has ever looked like LO. She is a beautiful blonde/brownish haired, Latina hottie, with incredibly fair skin and eyes so blue and deep, they go on forever like the Pacific Ocean. She’s the most beautiful Woman I’ve ever seen and I would love to tell her that. Maybe someday.. If I grow a pair..
I completely understand how you feel about the difficulty in not being able to tell LO how you feel. I will say though, it seems like you’ve managed to keep your work relationship very professional. Keep that up because you don’t want to lose it. I had a female manager many years ago when I was your age. She was probably about the same age difference too. I remember finding her attractive for her age and we got along very well also. I just never became limerent for her.
I think I have always had degrees of limerence in certain crushes over the years but they pale in major comparison to my current LE.
LO officially is my all time Cutest Limerence Queen. No other female in my life has ever come close. Not even my ex. So to the degree of sadness I feel over never attaining LO, it’s easy to see why.
Hi Mj,
Apologies for the late reply.
”So now I am NC, kinda by default”
It must be hard the fact that she works so close and as you said sometimes comes into your work place for lunch. I assume all the limerent feelings can come flooding back after weeks of NC and hard work on your behalf.
”(I still don’t understand it, to be honest.)”
Yeah that does seem like a confusing one. The mixed signals are hard to interrupt. It is very hard to know but maybe she is just a shy individual ? Have you seen her interact with other male colleagues in the same way which would confirm this ?
”She’s the most beautiful Woman I’ve ever seen and I would love to tell her that. Maybe someday.. If I grow a pair..”
haha I laughed I this. I agree with the telling her part (By which I mean I have those feelings too) despite having read the blog regarding not disclosing. I see a lot of people here suggesting DO NOT TELL THEM, for me personally I just want this limerence to end and I think getting confirmation from the person would put an end to it. It is a selfish act and I know and agree with all of the reasons why one should not do it that multiple people here have put forward, however I am at wits end with it all.
”I think I have always had degrees of limerence in certain crushes over the years but they pale in major comparison to my current LE.”
Again I completely get you here. I feel the exact same. This LE has been the worst one I have ever experienced. I wish I could offer you some advice but I do not know what to say. Your situation is difficult as she still works in close proximity and comes into your office sometimes at lunch. Despite going NC the feelings will still be strong and will be sparked up again whenever you see her (I assume). Multiple people on this blog/forum have provided excellent advice regarding limerence but to be quite honest I think there is only one solution for limerence.
Personally I can only speak for myself but I know that with limerence there is a fundamental issue at play. Potentially from childhood or life experiences. I am speaking generically here not assuming anything or about your situation just generic observations on limerence as a whole. I think there are multiple factors that cause certain people to be more prove to limerence. Maybe in our childhoods our emotional needs were not met or maybe in early adulthood some experiences for example conditional love have shaped us and made us more prone to limerence. More prone in the pursuit of this person as we think by getting them it will ”complete’ us and we will be happy as a result.
I think there is only one solution to limerence and that is blocking the person and going NC. Although harsh and extreme yes I know it is not their fault etc they never asked for this. However I feel this is the only true way to get over the person. This whole idea of maintaining friendships with them etc in my view just does not work. I think distance from the person and NC is the only solution. This cycle will most likely perpetuate into the future unless the fundamental issue is addressed on why we develop limerence for people.
I wish you nothing but the best on your journey MJ. I really do empathise with you. These feelings are horrible and I would not wish them on my worst enemy. Again many thanks for answering my questions. All the best !
Miss Lovisa
To what Mango said …
“however for me I find the maturity level of an older woman really attractive.”
I think we have had the conversation before or maybe that was with Marcia …. I agree with Mango. In my 20’s I had my eyes on women much older than me. Knowing they had a path in life at that age, life experience and maturity was really attractive compared to girls my age. But man, are ya’ll intimidating to talk to when I was that young lol So I tried dating at my age level and that was a disaster. Even in the appearance department I found older women much more attractive than girls my age for the most part. Heck I still do. Most of my celebrity crushes are older than me. I literally watched Arrow with my wife because of Susanna Thompson. I cared nothing about the actual show.
That’s really cute, Adam. I looked her up, she is lovely. I see why you are drawn to her. I think my SO likes older women, too, which is funny because I’m two years younger than him. I noticed how he behaved differently with his mom’s friends when we were dating. Also, we had the same vocal coach who is about 10 years older than my SO, I had the sense she was attracted to him, but I couldn’t tell how he felt about her. Maybe he just likes women who are his mom’s age. I haven’t picked up on that vibe in long time, though.
Mango33, your post and your insight is humbling. I am some forty years older than you but I can still learn a lot. I have read your message very carefully.
I am so sorry that you feel at your wits end but I do know that, deep down, things will get better.
You have raised my spirits, I wish you well too. I reckon you will be fine, sometimes it takes a little while.
f
This is primarily for Lost Girl if you see this, although I’d be happy to take feedback from anyone else as well. But my conversations with LG last week were definitely helping me to see myself as the LO as well as the limerent in my particular workplace situation, and to get more perspective on how my words and actions might affect my LO from the other side…
Anyway, after about a week of not talking, my LO texted me yesterday asking how I was doing and asking about how my SO’s doing with some mental health treatments she’s undergoing (treatments that LO had done recently and recommended for my SO). I gave a little update on my life and family, and then asked her how she’s been doing. Turns out she had a week from hell – one of her pets died, then two relatives died on back to back days, and also her SO is having some medical problems that she’s really worried about (I swear she loves him so much more than he deserves). I offered some supportive words and asked if she wanted to talk – she couldn’t yesterday because she had something to do with her kids, but we planned to sit down together and chat for a bit today. I’ll admit I was really looking forward to giving her a big hug.
Today started with her calling me because she was really upset about a patient who’d been verbally abusive to her – I had the chance to stand up for her and be protective so that felt good to me (but maybe not to her?). Then she started feeling sick, and by this afternoon had to leave early with a fever and bad sore throat – probably all the stress from the last week just wore down her immune system and she got something. She left work early but had to just wait in her car for a couple of hours until her daughter who works with us was ready to go since they commuted together. I asked a couple times if I could do anything for her, bring her some Gatorade or ibuprofen or something – I just wanted to take care of her so badly. But she turned down my offers, said she appreciated me but she was fine and just wanted to sleep. I was tempted to just put together a little care package with some sore throat spray and pain meds and fluids and bring it out to her car anyway, but I knew she’d already told me she didn’t want my help so I needed to back off and leave her alone.
Times like this challenge me so much because I just so badly want to take care of her, to do little sweet things for her, to try to just make her feel a little better, and she mostly makes it clear that she doesn’t want that. I don’t know if it’s about not wanting me to see her when she’s not at her best, or because she doesn’t want to let me do things that would make her feel dependent on me, or she doesn’t want me to do anything that would strengthen her feelings of affection towards me and worsen her limerence – probably all of the above… but dang, I just so badly want to do something for her. I mean, I’d really like to spend the rest of the day at home with her bringing her soup and rubbing her head and holding her while she sleeps, but I’d settle for bringing her some throat spray… but even that is too much. Like always, it just makes me sad that I can’t be more for her, but again I can understand why she can’t let me.
Anyway, I’ll probably just send her a little text tomorrow midday to ask how she’s feeling, and leave her alone other than that, I know she’s perfectly capable of taking care of herself and if she ever does want anything from me she’ll ask. Actually today before she starting feeling sick, she mostly just wanted to meet up so that I could tell her a funny story I’ve been saving for her, said she just needed to laugh for a few minutes and take her mind off of everything – so that’s something to look forward to next week… and honestly that’s probably the main role she wants me to play these days, to provide some positive interactions and distract her from her problems from time to time, rather than to spend lots of time talking about her problems together – and she definitely doesn’t want me trying to fix her problems.
Lost in Space
My heart goes out to your LO. Sounds like life has been extra hard for her lately.
Sounds like she’s already made herself vulnerable by sharing with you all the things going on. Then she had to deal with the verbally abusive patient and you coming to the rescue. And then she was physically sick and you offered comfort. I can understand refusing the help because I would feel like I showed too much “weakness” in such a short amount of time and would want to retreat. But that’s me
“I don’t know if it’s about not wanting me to see her when she’s not at her best, or because she doesn’t want to let me do things that would make her feel dependent on me, or she doesn’t want me to do anything that would strengthen her feelings of affection towards me and worsen her limerence – probably all of the above… ”
I agree it’s probably a combo of all of the above. Limerence makes everything so complicated and murky.
She is lucky to have you care so much about her well being. I would kill to have LO put that much effort into checking on my emotional and physical well being…but that’s a little too much trouble for him. I might be somewhat uncharitable in that thought, he has always been very encouraging in my professional life. He just seems to shut down with me if anything becomes too emotional or deep and can’t seem to muster any kind of basic human compassion!
Sorry I’m feeling sad and angry tonight. It was my dad’s birthday today and I miss him. Spent the night cooking his favorite traditional dish in his memory, eating with family, and I might have had a little too much to drink. Posted on Facebook about it and he couldn’t even respond or acknowledge it! I hate that even in my grief it’s still all about LO! I have definitely had too much to drink.
Lost Girl,
Hope the hangover wasn’t too bad today… sounds like a pretty emotional day yesterday. My condolences for your dad. How long has he been gone? Cooking his favorite meal and enjoying it with family seems like a wonderful way to honor him.
I totally get the Facebook thing. I’m lucky that my current LO doesn’t do social media at all, but my prior LO and I are Facebook friends. I actually don’t post things very often, but when I do post something and it gets a lot of likes, I still find myself scrolling through the list of people who liked it to see if she’s there. And I don’t even feel limerent for her or hardly think of her at all since she moved away almost 3 years ago, but looking through the FB likes still triggers me to think about her.
And I can certainly imagine with something as emotional as yesterday, you’d be looking for the comfort of a little hit of LO attention. Good job not texting him directly, especially after those drinks!
“She is lucky to have you care so much about her well being. I would kill to have LO put that much effort into checking on my emotional and physical well being”
I don’t know if she’s lucky or not honestly. I think it may be helpful for you to put yourself in the position of my LO. She’s had everything you could ever want in terms of reciprocation of her feelings. I’m incredibly responsive, attentive, and caring, always available and always supportive. I’ve told her straight up that I love her, that I’m madly in love with her, that I wish with all my heart we could actually be together, that I want to be part of her life forever because I love her too much to ever want to say goodbye, I’ve recorded myself singing love songs for her and only her and sent her the videos…. She’s had everything you could imagine in terms of reciprocation. There is no ambiguity at all about how I feel about her.
If you imagine your LO doing all of that towards you, it probably sounds wonderful, but my LO could tell you just how much pain it’s caused her, how much she’s cried, all the anxiety and depression and panic attacks… and I’ve had all the same. We’ve given each other a lot of good feelings, but we’ve also caused each other so much pain. I’ve really learned from this that while I think all of us limerents badly crave reciprocity from our LOs, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be – if there are barriers to actually being together, reciprocated feelings just makes the pain so much more intense.
Btw, I texted my LO midday to see how she’s doing. She told me that she’s really feeling terrible, fevers, chills, can’t keep anything down, has only peed once all day. I’m really concerned for her and spent a long time trying to talk her into going to urgent care. She left it with a maybe. I asked her to text me later this weekend to let me know how she’s doing and if she’s ok, that I worry about her. She said she appreciates how much I care about her. Again, I just find myself wishing so badly that I could be there to take care of her, but of course I can’t. All I can do is let her know I care and hope that makes her feel good rather than bad.
Lost in Space,
No hangover, I’m just a lightweight. A glass of wine makes me pretty tipsy and 2 sends me over the edge. He’s been gone 2 years. It was nice to make one of his favorite meals he loved and reminisce. The older I get the more I love to embrace the culture he came from and that I’m a part of. Making the food is part of that.
“Good job not texting him directly, especially after those drinks!”
The urge to reach out to LO that day was intense. I don’t drink very often but when I do I get very chatty. He’s been on the end of one of my text exchanges after a few drinks before. Although usually it’s happy and entertaining.
“I’ve really learned from this that while I think all of us limerents badly crave reciprocity from our LOs, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be – if there are barriers to actually being together, reciprocated feelings just makes the pain so much more intense.”
True. I guess it’s an example of be careful what you wish for. If he told me he reciprocated these feelings I would probably feel awful because of his wife. She’s an innocent party and doesn’t deserve that. She is part of the reason I stopped texting him after I went on antidepressants. The urge had diminished greatly but I also thought how would I feel if I was married and my husband was sharing all this personal stuff with another woman. I’d feel pretty crappy in her shoes. I feel like a pretty awful human being for having these kind of feelings for another woman’s husband. I’ve spent a lot of time talking to God, praying to take it away. Acts of a tortured soul. I’m a mess of conflicting emotions, guilt, and anger.
“I’m really concerned for her and spent a long time trying to talk her into going to urgent care. She left it with a maybe.“
I hope you LO is feeling better by now and if not I hope she got herself to urgent care or the ED. Her symptoms concern me too, especially the only urinating once all day. Sounds like she needs some fluids and antiemetics. For those of us in health care it’s a lot easier to take care of others than to take care of ourselves. Sometimes it helps to ask ourselves would I be waving off these symptoms if it was my loved one (if it was her child) or one of my patients. What would I do for them or tell them to do. We should care for ourselves just as much as we care for them. I know that’s hard for us because we want to be of use and of service to others. We always make the worst patients because of this. Let me know how she’s doing when you find out and I hope she takes your advice.
Lost Girl,
“I also thought how would I feel if I was married and my husband was sharing all this personal stuff with another woman. I’d feel pretty crappy in her shoes.”
My LO told me a bunch of times that she used thoughts of my wife to keep her own feelings and actions in check. She felt super guilty about her role in me developing feelings for her, and said she spent a lot of time putting herself in my wife’s shoes (which in her case was really easy because she’d actually been in my wife’s shoes a couple years before with her own SO betraying her with another woman). She told me that no matter how badly she wanted this for herself, she just couldn’t bring herself to do that to my wife, even though she’d never even met her. We agreed at one point to be more diligent about talking about our SOs regularly, to make it harder for us to fantasize about being together without acknowledging reality. Of course, in my case it doesn’t really help so much because her SO really is just so bad to her, so I couldn’t care less about his feelings, and if I was single I’d have no problems trying to take her away from him. But my SO is actually a really great person (and I don’t ever pretend that she’s not in order to give LO false hope), so it’s easy for my LO to feel sympathy for her and use that as motivation to keep from crossing the worst lines.
Sounds like that’s a big motivator for you as well. I’d say you have 3 go-to strategies when you’re on the brink of texting your LO – you can think about how tired you are of the limerence cycle and just want your freedom, you can get mad at him for stringing you along and never really caring about you (whether or not that’s completely true or not, you can still use it), and you can think about his SO and put yourself in her shoes.
Hope you’re having a good weekend 🙂
-LiS
I’ve discovered limerence in the past week after years of not understanding why I get attached to people in an intense way. It has happened since I was 17 first with a teacher, then a professor & online acquaintance (none of them were romantic and varied between male and female). I identified that all of my LEs happened when a big change happened in my life. I have considered myself aromantic because I never develop romantic feelings towards anyone, that is until I met my colleague. I am single and he is married (plus 12 years older than me). We share an office and every day I have to look at the back of his head. A year ago we went through some work issue and bonded over that, since then he’s been my LO. He’s v quiet and doesn’t talk much with other people in the office at a constant level. But we speak on messenger when we sit across the office. This attention and feeling special makes me feel important. Especially from a man who I know others may have a little crush on. We go for coffee every semi regularly and I wait for these moments, it’s like I’m just waiting for our next coffee meet to happen. My moods are regulated by how much attention hes given me. If he doesn’t message me for a couple of days, I become low. When he does message or we go for coffee, I’m walking on air. I know he considers me a work friend and notices when I’m being distant or not myself. The thought of phasing him out seems impossible – how can I cut him off slowly, the idea of never going to coffee with him again is upsetting. My mind is whirring with thoughts of “will he replace me with someone else?”. He is going to coffee with another colleague tomorrow (something he never does, he only goes with me and our colleagues don’t know about it). I’m jealous and insecure that I’ll be replaced as his confidante. Same if others have work related meetings with him. The thought of others getting closer to him saddens me. What does this say about me, I wonder? That the LE is more about feeling wanted I guess.
The funny thing is no matter what, if my LOs have been married I am desperate to find out about their husband/wife. Sometimes more obsessively than knowing about the LO. As I’m writing this, I wonder if it’s because I want to know what kind of person does my LO love and how can I be more like them.
Another big factor for me is feeling inferior (I would love to read more about this). With all my LOs I have admired them for something – their life, their academic ability, their hobbies. I am a very academically intelligent person, I know this. Yet my colleague LO has a phd and does regular writing. All of a sudden being an academic in his field seems like an admirable life path for me. As does being married with kids! I don’t ever want kids but I idealise his home life as if it’s the way to go for me too. Anyway this has gotten really long and I guess I needed to rant 🙂
Hi Mel,
Sorry to hear of the tough situation. I relate, my LO is a colleague that I have to work closely with.
Do you find yourself dissatisfied with just a friendship with this person? Are you fantasizing about a romantic relationship with him? He obviously values your friendship too, although he may be open to other close friendships if they develop. You may need to learn how to share him. The big question is can you have a friendship with this person and keep your emotions in control? You need to look at the relationship rationally and figure out what a normal work relationship with this person, a married man, should look like. If you cannot be comfortable within those boundaries then you may need to find a way to distance from this person. A slow withdrawal is a good method. Ultimately the limerence may not allow you to be a good true friend because your high and low emotions and desire for romance and exclusivity get in the way.
This site has a lot of good info so use the next few weeks to soak in information and maybe go light with your interactions with LO as you figure things out.
Hello Mel,
I have read many people’s analysis of why they have limerence, and yours strikes me as very self-aware.
You have identified:
– you develop LEs when there is a big change in your life
– the attention from an attractive and intelligent person who others may be also like makes you feel special and important
– how your moods are tied to LO’s attention
– your feelings of jealousy and possessiveness and insecurity
– that you want to be wanted
– your intense interest in the partner of an LO, and how that might be a model of how you might want to be
– how this might be tied to your own feelings of inadequacy or lack of self-esteem
I just want to say thank you! I have read so many people’s experience here, but your insights feels very “pure” and stripped of rationalization (which a lot of us do here), and it illuminates for ME some of the things I have been feeling (but have been less aware of) and how it might tie in with my own self-concept and insecurities. This is useful.
Nice summary/abstraction. Very on point.
I was reading a post on another blog and it reminded me of something I’d read about the concept of “Social Capital.” I read an article about it years ago and it made sense to me. In the workplace, how we often interact with coworkers based on how much Social Capital we assign to them. The article used examples of when encountering a coworker that has low Social Capital with you, you smile at them when you pass them. Encounter a coworker with more Social Capital and you stop and talk with them. You might have coffee or go to lunch with coworkers with high Social Capital.
If an LO is a coworker, their Social Capital is likely off the charts. And, it shows.
I Googled it and there’s a lot written about Social Capital. This article explains it pretty well https://www.hrmonline.com.au/section/strategic-hr/4-ways-to-build-your-social-capital-at-work/
It got me thinking about how limerence and social capital could collide in the workplace. I haven’t thought it through very much but it could be a killer MBA thesis.
L.E.
Great article. Both in analyzing how co-worker limerence may seed for me and also just in general in how to make a good name in work ethic. The last young lady we hired here that will be doing the invoicing for our branch, my boss described me to her as “overly polite but will help you with anything”. Lol. I was like “I’m overly polite?” He said “Yeah with the girls you are.” Which kind of struck me as a critique on his part. Maybe I invest too much social capital in my dealings with my female co-workers and not my male?
This new generation of young ladies are very different than those my age. And it is making it very difficult for me to find a good medium. Newer generations of women are much more independent. The whole landscape of secular interactions are different and still changing from when I was in my teens and 20’s working around both men and women.
I like the last point really well. One I really need to take heed of being that I work for one small department in a huge network of companies one man owns. And they are all intertwined in one way or another. I swung by the corporate office when I was in close physical distance from it one time and tried to reach out to a former co-worker of the same department I am in to say hi but she was out of the office that day. I need to be more mindful of other people within the company.
Great insight for the work place in that article. And a good reflection for me to consider in dealing with my female co-workers.
Adam,
WRT the young ladies you mention, it makes sense in the context of Social Capital. Each generation of workers seems to define their idea of Social Capital differently. Boomers see some things as earning Social Capital that other generations don’t and vice versa.
If you recognize that, you should be able to navigate smoothly through the organization. If you don’t, the workplace can get pretty bumpy.
Since limerence is in your head, a coworker LO can completely whack your sense of Social Capital. Take ruminating about that last time you had coffee with your LO. Reciprocation is like a deposit slip receipt.
It’s not so bad that I stumble into “go see HR or get fired” kind of things. I just seem to perplex the ladies that I work with. I guess what I call “good manners” as a man is not perceived or at least understood by them as well as it is with women my own age. And none of these gals are super feminine women either. All outdoor women and hunters.
The gals are probably not use to a man offering to carry something heavy for them or open a door for them. At least not from a co-worker as oppose to their partners. Things they are certainly capable of doing themselves. Instead of taking that as a offering of respect they tend to see it as an insult or at least a conundrum.
I think it is just two generations trying to come at and understand each other. Often after one of them gets to know me longer it becomes more commonplace and so they are more accepting of it. And I to try and not trip them up and tend to pull back some with my tendencies. It seems we both try to meet in the middle for each other.
Like I could tell that she consciously let me do those kinds of things for her on her last day. Even asking for my help sometimes. Something she balked at the most when I first started working with her. So I don’t feel so perplexed by a younger generation of women’s expectancy of me. It’s more I don’t want to individually offend them by something I did. Even if it is within the bounds of company policy.
When my LE set in for LO she went from the woman I least socialized with in the office to the one I paid most attention to. I am a fairly easy going, friendly and social person with people I know. I initiate a lot. Our workplace can be quite conversational between people. LO is fairly socially awkward and quite aloof, so I started initiating interactions I never had before with her all in an effort to loosen her up and gain her attention and affection. 8 months later of this song and dance and other co-workers were noticing and mumbling about it. LO heard the mumbling. It ultimately led to my disclosure.
As of today I have no more definable personal relationship with her, mainly because I stopped initiating. We talk a few work things during the day as necessary and that is about it. I don’t know if she notices or not that I have stopped initiating with her. If she does I’m not sure she cares.
There are a couple other people in the office who I enjoy social and personal interaction with much more than LO mainly because they are reciprocal in initiation of conversation.
We have a couple 20 something’s that work for us and generally I find their basic social skills to be lacking. I stay away from them mostly.
That’s interesting Speedwagon, as I am the exact opposite. While I have no issues holding a conversation and interacting with people I work with, initiating is not something I do much of. For the most part I just sit back and listen and maybe throw it a bit here and there so people don’t think I am antisocial.
But after some time I started actively initiating conversation and interactions with her to the point, much like you, people in the office noticed. Particularly our supervisor since I have known him longer than the other people in that office. So it was really out of character for me.
I guess that it helps that most of the time 80-90% of my day in the office I am in I am alone after the salesman leave in the morning. So I am use to less interaction with people in person. Most of my communication is email and/or text over even phone conversations much less in person.
I am the one, when I was working with her in her location, that someone would be like “Adam are you even listening?” when they’d be talking on lunch break. I would think of something really random and small I heard someone say so they’d know I was paying attention. Then I would be like “Yeah unlike [LO’s daughter name] I am not gonna eat okra off the …… I dunno whatever the hell it grows on.” “You really are a city boy aren’t you?” And then I’m back to quietly listening.
When LO and I worked in the same building, her work day was spent in the office, whereas mine had to be on the floor. Rarely would I ever have business to take care of in the office but if I did, I purposely always tried to do it within earshot of LO or in the vicinity of her cubicle. Just so she would notice and maybe want to interact. It never really happened, other than the occasional stare or passing glance. Even when I should’ve said hello, I always clammed up and didn’t. My mistake.
The main thing I always made sure to do was stay on good terms with all her office Co-Workers. Knowing actually some of them better than others. Communicating clearly with them when I knew LO was around. Because I wanted to increase Social Capital.. I figured if I at least sounded intelligent, considerate, and helpful, it would increase my chances to where maybe LO would ask them questions about me and maybe want to meet up. Guess that never happened. Her Manager and I got along really well, but I never asked him anything about LO. I wanted to keep things professional.
Currently, New Lady Friend and I work in the same department, but she works Quality Assurance. She is 29 and exactly 2 months to the day older than LO. What I like best is that our friendship is not forced and she can become so well engaged in conversations with me, that I walk away from them sometimes asking myself if they actually just happened. We get along so well it’s almost scary. At times I feel like I’ve known her for years. I guess that means she does infact have high Social Capital. The crazy thing is, I feel like I should be limerent for her sometimes but I’m simply not.. I think thats the reason why we do get along like we do. Or maybe I just subconsciously realize becoming limerent for her won’t make anything better and will probably make it worse. Good on me if that’s the case. LC and purposeful living must finally be happening. Lwl has done its job.
Looking back, limerence just complicates things. I find that it’s better to not worry so much about what the other person thinks and let things happen. Not allowing some feelings I may be having for my new Friend take so deep a root.
Because limerence overall has just been a very depressing experience for myself.
LO will probably always hold a special place in my heart. Yet I want to do my absolute damndest never to feel that way about another person ever again.