This has to be one of the commonest limerence traps out there. It’s certainly the most common scenario that people email me about, and no wonder; all the elements of limerence are there: close proximity to a small community of people (including potential LOs), built in barriers to the free expression of feelings, and no prospect of going fully No Contact. Mix in mid-lifers, boredom, long periods of time spent together with the occasional shared triumphs and disasters, and you couldn’t have set up better conditions for limerence if you had designed it. Like some sort of limerence super villain.
So, what are the challenges that face the limerent who succumbs to a co-worker LO? And how can you overcome them?
1) No no contact
There’s no escaping it, you often have to work with your co-workers. If you become limerent for one of them, then the number one tactic for overcoming limerence is denied to you. That means working on other tactics, but first, you should establish how much contact is really necessary. If LO is someone you only interact with very occasionally, then No Contact is feasible. It’s also possible to limit contact to essential business, and avoid LO during more casual interactions (coffee breaks etc.). If you are able to, limit contact as much as you can.
Sometimes, it’s not possible, though. Maybe LO is your boss. Maybe LO works for you, or you are both in a small team. So, the best bet under these conditions is to reprogram your brain and disrupt established, comfortable patterns of behaviour. I’ve written before about the idea of a “staged withdrawal” strategy. This means slowly turning the tenor of your interactions with LO away from intimacy and back to cordial professionalism. The plan is to be less and less forthcoming with personal information, and steer conversations that have drifted from professional topics back on track. A sudden “cold turkey” end to friendliness is going to provoke questions and confusion from LO, so you need to decelerate deliberately and carefully. It takes discipline to pull this off, but a slow, planned, progressive cooling of relations is a good way of neutralising the limerence while maintaining professionalism.
2) Disclosure is a massively high risk strategy
I’ve written before about the complications of flirting at work. In [current year] flirting, or even discussing romance, with work colleagues is a very high risk activity. If you misjudge this – and let’s be honest, most of us are not masters of communication – the repercussions are potentially severe. Most companies are extremely risk averse about co-worker romances, and many have explicit policies around this. Quite apart from the social and professional consequences, there are also the personal implications of having to work with someone after you have admitted your feelings – whether or not they reciprocate.
Many of us have experienced the grimness of working in a team where a romance has Gone Wrong and the ex-partners still have to work together. Many will also have worked in a team where overt favouritism is shown to the boss’s romantic partner (or even if it isn’t, the perception that it is predominates). There is no denying that office romances disrupt the functioning of teams. Or maybe LO is limerent for you too, but in a long-term relationship, and so you drag each other down in a limerence-reinforcing push/pull dance of excitement and guilt. None of these scenarios make for a successful professional or romantic career.
And in the (probably much more likely) scenario that your feelings are not reciprocated by LO, you have no idea how they will react.
People are unpredictable. All kind of fascinating weirdness is out there. While that makes the world a stimulating and enriching place, in the immediate term it makes your working life harder. Maybe they will be very offended and report you. Maybe they will like the attention, and string you along. Maybe they will be freaked out, and avoid you at all costs, making it hard to get your work done (though it should help with lessening the limerence).
Unless you are very confident that LO reciprocates, and you are both free to act on your feelings, disclosure at work is high on risk and low on benefit.
3) Power hierarchies complicate everything
Linking uncomfortably into the previous point, the dangers of disclosure are magnified if there is a significant power differential between you and LO. The #metoo movement is exposing the long history of bosses making unwanted sexual advances towards their subordinates, but there’s a flip side too. In the past, a subordinate “flirting up” with an uninterested manager would have been taking little risk. Most likely it would have been taken with good humour or embarrassment, or at worst, the flirt would have become the butt of office gossip. Now, it is very likely that the manager will take steps to protect themselves. In fact, that is the standard advice where I work – any romantic overtures from junior colleagues should be documented and reported up the line. That formally records what once would have been possible to laugh off.
So wherever you and LO sit in the hierarchy, there is no easy or safe way to disclose. The current climate in professional circles seems to have settled on “no romance with co-workers permitted”, which, while simple enough, rather blithely dismisses human nature. That said, if you are limerent for a co-worker and don’t want to be, then this can be a very useful mantra. Treat it like an iron-cast rule.
4) Boundaries between work and home
The final big challenge is where to draw boundaries between work and home. Most people socialise with their work colleagues to some degree, even if only at company-organised “dos”. It goes without saying that these are perilous moments if LO is present; doubly so if alcohol is also present. A common experience during these event is hyperawareness of LO – always knowing where they are in the room, being distracted from the conversation you are having, because you have half an ear open for the conversation LO is having behind you. The best method I devised for dealing with this was to deliberately focus on the person in front of you, and listen to them actively. This helps create a mental bubble, helps you be a better colleague (and makes the event more enjoyable for the person you are chatting with), and also means you may get to learn something interesting.
Finally, the other big boundary – the final frontier – is social media and texting. Company cultures differ, but if you can possibly avoid e-communication with LO outside of work hours, do so. There are multiple reasons, but the big one is that nothing feeds limerence like an ambiguous text from LO read just before you go to bed.
No contact outside work is the goal to strive for. No texting or FB messaging or Whatsapping unless the correspondence is mission critical. Acceptable scenarios in this category would include if you are limerent for the CEO and they need your input to prevent a multimillion pound deal collapsing over the weekend. You can send a text then. But keep it brief. Otherwise, wean yourself off the habit of texting LO as quickly and decisively as you can.
tl;dr:
Limerence for a co-worker is a minefield, with very little prospect for a good outcome. It is a scenario that lends itself well to the overall theme of this blog: recognise that the limerence is happening within your mind, carefully apply psychological tactics to counteract the limerence program, and decide to take responsibility and live with purpose. It’s the long term path to mastery.
Realistically of course the best remedy is for either the LO or the Limerent to leave the workplace. Then the best remedy, NC, is possible.
Thankfully that’s what has happened to me, LO is leaving in 5 days. We’ve fallen out too so I don’t think we’ll have the tearful goodbye I was dreading either, which makes it easier, albeit a sad end.
Yes, one or other of you leaving is the simplest ending. Well done for hanging on Vincent. Shame that you’ve fallen out with LO at the end, but as you say, that’s actually likely to help in the final analysis.
Keep your eyes on the post-LO future and all the new possibilities therein!
A week of NC now after I sent her a text saying we were done now. We’d fallen out over something, I gave it a few days but couldn’t get over what she had done (I don’t want to reveal details but she’s done similar a couple of times and we’d had words each time). Part of me wonders if my reaction was me subconsciously making this parting and path into NC easier for myself. Either way, she left without saying goodbye, which made me feel very sad, and she’s not replied to my text. I’ve deleted all trace of her now and am trying to look to the future, when not wondering why she hasn’t replied ;-( …
If it helps at all, Vincent, there is never much realistic prospect of a clean or happy ending to unfulfilled limerence. The only real hope is if you can manage a staged withdrawal beforehand, but often either limerent or LO gets offended, or upset, and the “friendship” deteriorates. Especially if there was mutual limerence.
Looking to the future is always a good perspective.
She left two weeks back for another state. Miss her so much, we parted well. Wish her well.
Reading my mind, eh?
Excellent advice, all of it. Pity that at this particular moment I am too far into the limerence fog to want to enforce it. And I was doing so well! Till last week, when there was –you guessed it– socializing and alcohol.
At least I’ve had the discipline to swap my home office days in order to limit contact to LO as inconspicuously as possible, and have updated my CV just in case. Wish me luck.
Hi Marianne,
Very late to reply to this (apologies!) but… Good luck!
Dr L
Also: you are spot on on the factors. Even though I am a serial limerent, I never had this issue before at work, so I’m blaming the midlife crisis.
And I thought with age came maturity and calm. Nonsense!
Thank you so much for this blog. I am thick in the fog for my boss who now says I am his firend and I can call him at night or on the weekends. He has a counseling degree and is working with me on setton on
Hi Kate, and welcome.
Yikes, limerence for boss is a tough one – no contact is not really an option!
If your boss is a counsellor, he should be well aware of professional boundaries, but I confess to being a little taken aback by the number of emails I get from therapy professionals who seem to think that they are immune to the problems that they counsel clients on. Until they get mugged by limerence. I’ve speculated to myself that it is an area of work that is by its very nature is very emotionally charged, and so limerence is a significant risk.
If you can, I would suggest putting fairly strict limits on your evening and weekend contact. It’s a very effective reinforcer of reverie.
Good luck!
“I confess to being a little taken aback by the number of emails I get from therapy professionals who seem to think that they are immune to the problems that they counsel clients on.”
Well, remember that part of the therapy process IS getting clients to trust you and transference is supposed to be something addressed in-depth while in school and in training. It shouldn’t come as a surprise to any of them and they are supposed to know how to extricate themselves from the dynamic when it’s no longer helpful to the client.
In theory.
This is short and hardly all-encompassing, but it’s still worth the read.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-therapy/201206/clients-guide-transference
In all honesty – if this guy has a license to risk, I would call the governing body and find out if there are any complaints on file.
“I am thick in the fog for my boss who now says I am his friend and I can call him at night or on the weekends. ”
Don’t call this guy at night or weekends. This is a veritable red flag factory. Can you find a new job? Is he THE boss or YOUR boss? Is there some sort of employee handbook? I would suggest HR but if he’s their boss you can put your career in jeopardy.
Yesterday I saw LO properly for first time in over 6 months. Went in with a box of chocolates for the team (as is customary for former colleagues to during the 2nd busiest week of the year!)
LO said Hello. What was said I can’t be 100% certain because my anxiety took over. It was basic pleasantries rather than a proper conversation. He then went out the back and I managed a proper chat with the other colleagues.
Lessons learned:
– The Glimmer has gone!! I was simultaneously delighted and sad at this. Also annoyed that if there’s no glimmer, how come I couldn’t string a sentence together!?!
– He was indifferent to me – nice enough but just as he had been to previous customer.
– The whole thing may have been in my head – I was being ridiculous.
– I’ve made an idiot of myself, and there’s 0 chance of reciprocation now.
– I may actually be making progress!!
Thanks again for all the support from this site. Hope everyone manages to have a Happy Christmas and New Year.
Happy Christmas to you too, Sophie.
Sounds like a bit of a mixed bag of emotions with your last contact – but mostly positive lessons. Not too surprising to find yourself tongue-tied, given how much Significance LO takes on in our limerent minds, but great that you bounced back quickly and recognised how much progress you’ve made (congrats!). Here’s to a purposeful 2019!
Hi – Thanks for this site. I needed something to go to and this has been perfect. I didnt even know there was a name for what I was going through!
I used to work with a colleague for 2 years, 6 years ago – we were good friends which at the end she became like a work wife – after I left we lost touch bar the odd message on linked in. Always thought she was nice but no way my type at all.
Then 2 years ago in my current job a vacancy arose and i recommended her to my manager – she got the job. We pretty much slotted back into work wife/hubby situation again and then I realised after 6 months the ‘glimmer’ and started to like her and do special things for like – bring her coffee when she was stressed, helped her find shoes online that she couldnt get her size in…..go to new eating joints after work with her – she did reciprociate messaging me outside of work and coming with me when i asked her for drinks – didnt initiate that much – she is an introvert so I found i did all the asking and she always was ok with it.
Anyway over the last 18 months I realised i thought about her a lot at home and even was messaging her when i was on holiday – and once even messaged her when she wasnt in the office and told her i missed her (in an indirect way)…our messages and closeness increased but there was no disclosure from either of us. Im not convinced she has anything for me except good feelings of care and friendship – she does message me on weekends with jokes and stuff.
Anyway in the last 2 months i have not been myself and i came across this site and decided to start to let it all go…its hard as we are in the same team but not working directlty on the same projects so that does help. On a positive note she is leaving end of Jan.
So all sounds good right?
BUT we have both applied for a new job which is one of the worlds best brands and they have several vacancies – my worry is should i still take it if she gets an offer too!!
As my therapist says to me, her texting in the evenings, weekends and holidays is very telling. She’s obviously thinking about you, and you don’t do that if you’re not interested.
You haven’t said what the problem is here. Do you and her have SOs?
Thanks – to clarify, 90% of the time I text on weekends and evenings and she does participate in conversation/banta with me. only 10% of the time would she initiate it. On holiday i have 100% always initiated it and she will talk when on holiday fo ra short while…not on going throughout the holiday. So not sure what to make of it.
I guess last week i thought id take advantage of our xmas party and the fact that people would be relaxed…..I said to her before the party that maybe we leave at 11 and get some food together and i can walk her to her station – we both said good idea but we would see how the evening would go and how we were feeling at the time……when it came to 11pm on the night she said she was not tired yet and would probably stay till midnight….so i then left at 11pm. I kinda took that as a cue that she has nothing for me expect friendship as that was a good opportunity to spend time together alone which she dismissed.
I have an SO but really like the LO. She has no SO
“…bring her coffee when she was stressed, helped her find shoes online that she couldnt get her size in…..go to new eating joints after work with her ”
In essence, you were dating her (LO). Did you put an equal amount of thought and effort into your relationship with your SO then? Do you now?
“I have an SO but really like the LO. She has no SO.”
Sounds like SO is a placemarker or security object.
Does SO know about the situation with your co-worker? If she did, would you do anything differently? I’m not talking about “guilt gifts”.
In the meantime, I hope 2019 is less uncertain for you.
Well didn’t feel like dating. Felt like I was doing these things to try and see if she will reciprocate in her own way. Don’t think there was anything. She did if I asked her for something. But she wasn’t proactive like I was.
And yes gave SO same attention. But limerence at work meant it’s like 2 lives and I can’t tell if she has limerence too
Kevin –
Helping a woman find shoes in her size online is something you do for someone you are courting. Do you do it for anyone else, unsolicited? Pop up and bring coffee for others? Do you know their preferred roast and whether or not they take it black or with sugar? Do you do it for men in your office?
I mean, turn it around. If your SO was researching and purchasing a tie for a co-worker, or tying a tie for a gentleman at work, wouldn’t you twig to the fact that she has romantic feelings for him?
It’s like…reaching out and straightening a man’s collar without pointing it out to him (he can do it himself). It’s an intimate gesture.
If you are no longer interested in your SO – let her go. Life is only so long and she may not be aware that you’re only half-interested in her. Cut your losses.
Your not wrong. Yes I do like LO and do all these things for her as I’m looking for reciprocal actions as I have learnt I have limerence and craving that. She doesn’t give as much as I do hence why I’m convinced that she has nothing for me.
What your saying I agree and know about. But I’m trying to stop now and focus on SO Hence on this site.
even though we work together we will have no contact as we are of work for 2 weeks. Then I have 4 weeks of vein in same building and then she leaves end of jan
Question is we may end up again st the same company if we both get a job we are going for.
Can you broaden your skill set to minimize holding very similar positions within a company? I don’t know your field and at the upper echelon it tends to get rather cosy. But the more you invest in yourself, the better.
Having said that when I mentioned the other day that I need a new blazer she sent me a link if one she was suggesting. Things like that keep me hanging on to her thinking she likes me and we can carry on living in this world where we like each other. But I don’t know if I’m correct or she is just being friendly.
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for your comments, and for sharing your experiences. I think the most important question you have to answer is “do you really want a home wife and a work wife, and are your two wives OK with that too?”
You should take some time to reflect on what you want from your life, because it seems like you are seeking emotional connection with LO without really understanding why and why your life with SO is not meeting that need.
My ethos is “purposeful living” because it helps to stimulate me to think about why I do what I do, and how it fits in with my goals. I drifted into limerence for a co-worker because I was just responding to the happy feelings of a new (sort of) romantic connection, without looking ahead to the inevitable negative consequences. I then had to dig myself out of the mess, which was painful for everyone involved.
From what you’ve shared, it sounds like you are seeking deeper emotional bonding with your co-worker. While it feels good early on, once it tips into limerence, you become increasingly desperate for reciprocation, connection and intimacy. It kind of sounds like you are there – scrutinising every action for meaning, anchoring your hopes on small, ambiguous gestures, and worrying about how you are going to handle future interactions.
If you do want to get out of this limerence loop, I think a really valuable first step would be to accept that you are never going to know for sure how LO feels about you, and that’s OK. I wrote a post on that idea here, https://livingwithlimerence.com/2018/08/17/living-with-uncertainty/.
The main point is about “letting go” of LO and refocussing on SO. If LO has good character, they would not respond to your romantic overtures anyway, if they knew you were in a relationship. Alternatively, if your relationship with SO is over, you should end it with integrity, and then take your chances with LO (who may decline).
As for the future, it may play out that you and LO end up working together again. If so, I would start that new endeavour with a new perspective: she is not your work wife, she is a co-worker that you like and enjoy the company of. Multiple wives (or husbands) is rarely a good look…
Thanks for this and taking the time to
Write it.
Yeah, like you it’s rhise new romantic feelings I’m enjoying. Well I was enjoying but now I try and avoid her in the workplace and am
Counting down the days to
Her last day. Cos
Of how i feel
After experiencing her presence – a mess.
Before limerence I felt
Energised but now
It’s different.
Since Xmas
Party this week I feel I have to give her up. She basically chose the party over me and I was out just to spend time with her. I do feel like a fool doing nice things for her like a boyfriend would throughout the year.
So you had something similar and your fully over it
Now?
Kevin,
Twenty months ago, I was in full blown Limerence with a divorce male family friend. I’m happily married with two teenagers. Limerence derailed my life and peace of mind. I found this website and have slowly crawled out of the madness. It’s a condition that I’m trying to control. During the height of Limerence, I purchased a $350 first edition, signed copy of my LO’s favorite local author. It was his Christmas gift. Did I spend that much money or time gift hunting for my SO? …No, I did not. That’s how insane and crazy Limerence can make a person.
A full year later, where am I? My LO is with his young girlfriend. I’m dead weight to him. …Where am I? Thankfully, still married to a man that took me out last night for dinner. It was raining, my SO gently tucked me in a corner to stay warm and dry while he walked out to get the car. This is real life. Not the Limerence.
Think about where you want to be in your life, marriage and peace of mind. If you cannot be around LO without being a person of integrity, then don’t take the position. Start the process of staged withdrawal and No contact.
It’s hard, but you can’t be with your LO now. By her actions, she acts like someone that cares, but not enough to break a marriage.
BTW, “mother Lee” is a spouse of a Limerent. She’s the cold splash of water that we need to remind us that there’s a real spouse on the other end of this Limerence roller coaster ride.
Good Luck.
I hope your evening together was delightful!
Happy holidays Irene. I hope 2019 is truly wonderful. Or at least a (mostly) fun ride.
Thanks for sharing
Did he reciprocate to you.
Thanks for sharing your story and words of wisdom with me. You are so right about what you say.
How did you get out of your Limerence.
Did he reciprocate to you.
My issue is sometimes im resiprocated (10%) of the time – so I hang onto that for more of the romantic feelings.
Im going for NC but as we work in same company on same floor we have to have contact. But atleast over the holiday period there will be none – unless she messages me. I kinda want her too deep down but I know it goes against all of this.
Kevin,
Every LO has reciprocated their Limerent feelings in one way or another. Often times that’s what initiated the start of Limerence. My LO was divorce, no kids and single for a very long time. He doesn’t want to have children or bother with other divorcée offsprings. My teenagers are young men and friends with LO. He’s not my type, we had known him for awhile. He recommended some things for us to go tour since we were new to the area. I enjoyed his recommendations and would thank him for his advice. This is a year into our acquaintance. We start a very appropriate friendship. We have an unbelievable amount of common interests in books, movies and hobbies. The glimmer starts. Four months of yearning and inappropriate “friendship” pattern is established. (Two inappropriate hugs initiated by LO was as far as it went) He gets tired of mooning after a married woman and moves on to a young single girl. Immediately, I’m avoided and ignored. It was a harmless flirtation on his part, ….almost two years for me to cope with the aftermath.
What lessons did I learn? It’s not my marriage, LO or anything external. What is the root of my problem? I have an avoidance personality, married to a incredibly strong willed husband that doesn’t share a lot of interests with me, siblings that are manipulative. I lost my beloved father in 2013, my only brother became paralyzed after a massive stroke in 2014 (age 51) and we make this major move to a new state. No family or friends and I’m not working in order to raise the boys. I meet LO in June 2015, the Limerence started in December of 2016. It’s the closing of 2018, I’m in a stronger position, but not completely over the Limerence. Wiser and armed with knowledge. This website, Dr.L and all the bloggers has helped.
Kevin, keep asking yourself this, …..What is the root of the problem? It’s not your LO or even your spouse. There’s a gap in your life and you are trying to fill it with LO and all the dopamine reliefs it comes with.
LO is not my type, but every time I see him, all the alarm buttons goes off, every hair in my body stands up and I’m in hyperarousal mode. You would absolutely laugh if I texted you a picture of him. He’s short, bald and slender to the point of being feminine. (I could list all of his appealing features, but it’s long and has to be in pdf) My husband refuses to find him a threat. I am so frightened of my response to LO that I avoid him like a recovering alcoholic avoids alcohol. This is Limerence. It has to be.
“…remind us that there’s a real spouse on the other end of this Limerence roller coaster ride.”
Well, from the number of times I’ve found myself unexpectedly smacked into walls (metaphorically speaking), I think it’s more like “crack the whip”.
He was seen by Miss LO at an event where he was underdressed and she was looking particularly attractive and was flirting with a single man (which made him jealous and angry) and I was later greeted with, “I’m so glad I’m good enough for you, Lee!” Oh gee, thanks. How noble of you, how self-sacrificing!
Thanks Lee. Good idea about skills set. They are similar and we both enjoy good companies to work for.
Anyway let see what happened. Best scenario is that I get the job and she doesn’t. Or she get it and I don’t.
Worst scenario is we both get it as they have multiple roles. Then I will
Be stuck.
This reminds me of that scene in How I Met Your Mother – Barney’s “Mermaid Theory” – that if you spend long enough with someone, you end up finding them attractive in the end. I’ve often thought that about work place based relationships.
https://youtu.be/eJC_q8OQwU4
That is true. I remember that episode
And thought the same.
When I first my LO in 2012 I thought she is ok but not my type. Looks and personality wise.
Now it’s a different story
@irene
Thanks Irene for sharing your story. I feel for you. Sounds like yeah it was
Harmless flirting for him. It was for me at work too with my LO. Think I enjoyed the challenge of seeing if I can get her to reciprocate. As we work together it carried on and when she showed signs of reciprocity, I liked it and carried on. And then BANG about 3 months ago I realised that before she energised me and now she drains me as I feel more and more sad that I can’t have her.
We even gave each other Xmas presents. It was very sweet and I told her that. But I know it’s just her being friendly.
What do you classify as inappropriate hugs?
Glad your in a better place now. Can’t have been easy. You sound strong. There is a reason why Buddhism believes in celibate i guess. Limeremce this can mess with your head big time.
Kevin,
Any hugs made to someone you’re attracted to is inappropriate while married. Long hugs, with cheeks pressed together in deep yearning is inappropriate. He was saying “Thank you for the beautiful book I gave him”. I’m going to avoid touching him in the future. His short height is an incredible turn on to me. It’s very intimate.
It’s about My personal archetype and upbringing. My childhood boyfriend was also my best friend during high school and college. He and I were inseparable. We grew up together, developed a love of old movies and books. It was a beautiful relationship. Five years and never consummated the relationship, because we were going to wait until after we were married. After college graduation, I wanted different goals than what he had mapped out. We parted with bittersweet tears.
My LO brings back such strong childhood memories and smells from this beautiful childhood. It’s classic transference.
@irene
Sounds like you had it tough but are through the hardest part. Was this through NC?
I’ve shown lots of gestures to my LO when not knowing limerence was probably being fed. I loved finding places to take her to eat and coffee houses that I know she would like. She would come too and enjoyed it.
I kinda feel it would have been better she didn’t but because we were friends from a previous employment, then in his new job we had a more intimate friendship one can argue. Me or her didn’t go out for lunches with other colleagues on a 121.
As mentioned
Above the Xmas
Party was the painful tipping point where I realised I really am wasting my time if she doesn’t want to spend time with me as it was my ‘hope’ for reciprocal action that DR L talks about not being met that upset me.
I feel for you but also you give hope that things can get better.
Without knowing I was trying to transfer LO to someone else in the office. We message on internal chat but she hasn’t accepted any of my lunch or dinner outings. She is probably wiser.
Kevin,
No contact or very limited contact is very important. You need to find out what triggers sets off your Limerence. Avoid these types. Stop engaging with coworkers outside of work unless it’s related to business until you figure out what’s motivating you to respond this way to certain women. I actually have a new priest that is my age and is very fond of me. He openly teases me and compliments my questions in our bible class. He has a delightful sense of humor. That’s a trigger. I instantly stop joking with him. I love wit and good natured ribbing. My husband is all business and doesn’t have tolerance for nonsense. I’m instantly attracted to sociable males with certain traits. I dial it back now with all men.
I know my kryptonite.
Hi Irene
You are being strong with the priest.
The issue with limerence is that initially makes you feel good about yourself and that’s why we come back for more I guess.
So the fact you’re being strong and not responding as much is good
I think my reason for going down this route and 14 for this trap is that I enjoy the challenge of getting girls to like me. I think I realise that today after talking to you All. It’s like a challenge. I know that as last year somebody was very much interested in Me From work as we were chatting a lot online. Looking back I think I subconsciously started talking to her to transfer my LO. But that didn’t work as I almost felt I was cheating on the LO I have with today. Anyway back to last year with this other girl , when we were in a taxi going home after a night out she did try to kiss me but I didn’t and felt it was not right.
Hi
So trying out this new contact stuff that’s been recommended
We usually contact every day on weekdays and sometimes weekends
However in the last week I don’t think I’ve done too bad as I just contacted on Christmas Day to wish a Merry Christmas and got the same greeting response back.
Now trying to go for a full week. However once we are back in the office on seventh of Jan and the real challenges will start
I mean NO CONTACT stuff
Good luck with it. If you wear glasses, it helps to remove them so she becomes another anonymous blur. Fewer conversations, more workplace emails (that can and ARE read by others) also dampen down enthusiasm. If it’s only about work, it’s probably not that interesting.
Changing her contact name to “No Contact” in your phone will make it easier to ignore any weekend or after work hours texts too.
Thanks Lee for your encouragement.
I actually deleted her number from my phone 6 months ago. Which tells me that I must have known this is becoming a problem for me before I even heard of limerence. But as we are on team what’s app groups from previous company I can always acccess her number. But I just made it more difficult for myself
Problem is she will ask me for coffee or lunch after I don’t say much to her. How to respond to that. If I’m not too careful I’m worried I may even tell her that I have a soft spot for her when she asks me why I’m being aloof.
Are you both single? Sorry, I don’t recall. I’m guessing one or both of you are not.
“Problem is she will ask me for coffee or lunch after I don’t say much to her. How to respond to that.”
“No, thank you.”
*chirp-chirp*
No explanations are necessary. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
She is single I’m not but like her a lot and can be tempted to flirt and enjoy her company, praise her etc etc.
Ok. So just keep it cold then. This will
Be interesting.
Thanks. It’s cold but I know it’s for the best
You don’t have to keep it “cold,” you keep it professional. Don’t respond to her weekend emails, etc.
You can always tell her the truth, maybe not the real truth, but enough of the truth. If she asks why you’ve distanced yourself, tell her the line of professionalism is getting fuzzy and you want to get back on the right side of that line.
Now, have you done or said anything that could be professionally damaging? What happens if your wife sees those texts/emails? Is she aware that you’re contacting her on the weekends? If not, you’re on some pretty shaky turf. If she does, you can always throw your wife under the bus and tell your co-worker your wife is uncomfortable with that and asked you to stop. Out of deference, you will. Actually, you may be able to use that regardless. If the woman has any integrity, she’ll accept it and respect you for it. If she ramps up or threatens you, you know the kind of person you’re dealing with.
The question isn’t if you can get out of this, the question is do you want to?
Your co-worker may find it a relief to return to treating you as a colleague rather than a friend or buddy. She may have realized that after-hours and weekend texts to a married man isn’t healthy for her. If not immediately, then eventually. If she wants to start a serious relationship with someone, the best way is for both parties to be unmarried.
This idea is gold, Kevin.
Even if Lee’s speculation isn’t actually how LO is feeling, acting as though it is would be really effective at breaking the limerence cycle. It’s a good way of framing the situation in a way that no contact (or limited, professional contact) is good for you and good for LO, and so everyone benefits.
@Scharnhost
Thanks for this. Your so right it’s not cold it’s professional. I hope I don’t have to tell her. She leaves end of jan so I just need to see one month through and on top of that I work from hom once a week so 17 working days I have to see her. Lol
So hopefully in that time she doesn’t notice me being aloof from fun and social interactions. Although she has to give me part of my Xmas present that didn’t arrive pre Xmas so that will get the heart racing again when she gives it.
Your question about wanting to get out of it is a good one as Most of me does so as to bring back my focus in life and be under this spell but part of me wants her as I am attracted to her and how she makes me feel.
@lee and @drl
This is an awesome way to look at it. And I have wondered if She realises that going on lunches and dinners one-to-one with me makes her realise that the man she is with has a wife or whether she just sees us as good friends as we have been for years and doesn’t think anything of it. But yeah this point is an excellent one and one I haven’t considered. Maybe she too will use the Xmas period to self reflect and cool things off from jan.
But come first week of jan we will both know if we got th job offer in a new company or not.
“And I have wondered if She realises that going on lunches and dinners one-to-one with me makes her realise that the man she is with has a wife or whether she just sees us as good friends as we have been for years and doesn’t think anything of it.”
In the end, it doesn’t matter what she thinks about it. What matters is how you behave within the boundaries to which YOU knowingly committed yourself. If your marriage isn’t satisfying your every need, it’s a darn good chance that it isn’t 100% satisfying to your wife either. NO marriage is 100% satisfying to both parties. That doesn’t give either person carte blanche to ignore it entirely. (Aside: I’m not suggesting you are doing this, but I am pointing out some popular stations used by people justifying poor decisions to themselves and getting angry when they are trusted by those they are betraying – don’t go there!)
Don’t gum it with Esther Perel’s b.s. EVER or you may find yourself being discussed in very disparaging terms over at chumplady.com Ditto for LO. Also consider http://www.mustbethistalltoride.com and Matt’s 14-part letter to sh*tty husbands (it applies to wives too, but he wrote it reflecting on his part in the demise of his marriage – so it had husbands mostly in mind).
In the meantime, you are colleagues. You are giving her more personal and professional space within which you can both grow.
I hope 2019 is a good year for you. Do you think you have a good chance of landing this new job? Does it come with more money too? Fingers crossed!
Thanks Lee
Have a good chance. 4 Candidates it went to the final round and there are two roles.
So a scenario is that we both get the roles. Then I will have to decide whether to take it or not as I deal with this limerence. Best scenario is that I get it and she loses out on this occasion. Selfish I know but I don’t think I can concentrate on that if she is there as well.
Well it’s now end of the holidays and work starts again tomorrow. I found this site 1.5 weeks ago and do find a positive difference already as not feel like just sinking my head in a pillow like I did early dec. I’m still on a journey but find that I am now more aware of what’s going on and that’s because of ALL OF YOU. So thank you to all of you for your time in helping me.
Having NC for 12 days and not seeing LO has helped. She did message me today to wish HNY. I know I’ve improved My awareness as I didn’t get so excited and respond straight away. Instead i withheld and responded 6 hours later with no question. But just a gesture of good will for 2019. Was hard but I did it.
So thank you all
You’re doing great. Keep it up. Professional detachment and distance. Colleagues, not buddies.
Happy 2019!
Thanks Lee. You’ve been helpful.
So 14 days I have to go in the office where we will be in same floor together. Then she leaves at end of jan. Other days either I’m working from home or she is. Sad that I’m counting down. But also not sad as I am letting go of what has been dragging me down.
She did contact me today to tell me she got the job that we both went for. There are two vacancies. I haven’t heard and if I don’t get it then that’s cool as I can’t be dealing with starting a new job and LO in my team!
Platinum lining to those dark clouds, right? Right!
Lee – absolutely.
My slight worry is that if I don’t get it and at the same time I’m practicing NIC ( not initiating contact) then she will think it’s because of the new job thing. As she isn’t aware of my limerence. I was even thinking of disclosing But not worth it now that She is going end of jan.
Well as some of you have taken the time to support me – I wanted to share that I didnt get the role and my LO did – as they had 2 roles i was worried i would end up in a new workplace again with LO – well luckily that wont happen now – so its goodbye to LO to a different country too! Im slightly gutted i didnt get the role too because it was good job but Im trying to remember that my wellbeing and emotional state is a priority at the moment and that being with LO in a new country/new job and SO there soo would mean that there would be lots of interactions as we would all be new there settling into new country so that could have played with my mental state a lot – so its a blessing really. LO just called me too 🙁 as wanted advice on whether to take the role or not as we have always helped each other in conversations. Anyway I supported her as a friend and actually didnt feel sad speaking to her – felt a little sad afterwards but am ok. I just hope she doesnt stay too much in touch with me when she is alone in a new country / new job asking for advice etc…. Must admit I felt good being an honest friend to her. But need to carry on with NC (i havnt broken it as she rang me and i discussed matters at hand nothing more !)
” Im slightly gutted i didnt get the role too because it was good job”
I’m sorry that didn’t work out differently. Then again, you can now focus on your current job and pick up new skills or improve in areas that will lead to a better job in 2019. Maybe you won’t have to pack up the family and move to a new country in order to get a better job.
I mean – it would be a grand adventure but it may be difficult for you and your wife to both land jobs in a new country, so there is that to keep in mind. Plus kids (do you have any?) are another layer of complexity.
” I just hope she doesnt stay too much in touch with me when she is alone in a new country / new job asking for advice etc…”
I suspect she will be asking for advice from people who are already there and can recommend places they know well, etc.
You got this, Kevin.
Shame about the job, Kevin, but as you say there are a lot of positives to be taken from this outcome. Most importantly, no contact can now happen naturally, and you are free from the day to day interactions with LO. If she does “reach out” in the future, you can just take progressively longer to respond, and keep it neutral. She’ll surely find new sources of support (which is better for everyone).
You should also take a lot of pride in how well you’ve handled this episode. It’s no small thing to face an emotional challenge like this, maintain your integrity through it, and learn deep lessons about yourself. Congrats!
Kevin,
I’m sorry you didn’t get the position.
Blessings are often delivered in the form of a closed door. I am glad you handled the situation with dignity. I would think it was doubly difficult to handle Limerence, temptation and proximity to LO without children involved. You really dodged a bullet. Have a great weekend with your SO.
Thank You Irene, Lee & Dr L
Yes it possibly is dodging a bullet as the thought of me and SO in a new country, and LO in the new country (its a small country) all settling in together and meeting up socially as we wouldnt know anyone else initially terrifies me on how I would feel emotionally PLUS trying to make a mark in the new job. LO would be living on her own and i know she would be dependent on me to help with things so all works out for the best in the end.
DR L – thanks for your comments but your posts have been my source of wealth in handling this episode so your a true selfless Gentleman. Praying that you get the best of everything in life.
Hope all are well and feeling lighter…infact my aim is to make the weight of my LO feel like a mere blade of grass on my forehead as opposed to the elephant weight at the moment (which is getting smaller 🙂 )
Enjoy the weekend folks
Hi all. Need some advice please.
So still maintaining NC over the weekend but finding it hard because when LO called me about advice on whether or not to take the new job (she is worried about living on her own in the new country and managing all the domestic stuff herself as she currently lives at home ), im sure she was close to tears as I could hear it in her voice the fear that was there. She did admit to me that she had a good cry when she heard she got the job as reality kicked in for her to live alone.
Because of our close friendship I feel compelled to stay in touch with her under the circumstance and check in with her to support her but obviously I’m trying a lot harder to just be a normal colleague and maintain NC. So part of me feels I’m not being a good friend . She has not said that to me as I did give over an hour of my time on the phone call on Friday which she thanked me for but I am just feeling that I am not doing enough. I picked up the phone a number of times to message her today but I thought I would come to you guys 1st to help defuse the thoughts in my head and maintain NC. But feeling slightly guilty too for not being there for her.
Any thoughts or words of wisdom would be much appreciated.
She is frightened about living on her own? She is an adult and if this is a real fear, she needs a good counselor.
Don’t be the yo-yo to her string, Kevin.
Also, this is exactly the time and situation when a woman should reach out to her girlfriends and family. Not a clearly smitten, married male co-worker.
She knows you have more than collegial thoughts. That Christmas present to her said it all. I hope she doesn’t decide to tell your wife about it. You didn’t tell your wife you got her a bath basket and you both had a laugh about how awkward it is – right?
Plus an hour on the phone is at least 45 minutes too long.
Tread lightly and retreat.
@Lee
thanks – yeah she has been pampered a lot at home so for a 36 yr old, yet to hit the real world.
Agree about not being the YO YO – having said that she wasnt the one reaching out this weekend it was me feeling I should check in with her – but after your posts i decided not too – so thanks. I do believe she is talking to a variety of people to get opinions too.
Wife not aware of bath gifts and LO doesnt know SO so that wont happen – thats all buried now and receipts probably recycled into something else by now.
Thanks
“when LO called me about advice on whether or not to take the new job (she is worried about living on her own in the new country and managing all the domestic stuff herself as she currently lives at home ), ”
Kevin – something else to consider is that her calling you, when you were both competing for the job, is not unlike rubbing it in your face. She didn’t call you to say she thought she might not be qualified for the JOB, she called to make you think about playing house with her.
Seriously. The woman is competent enough to land this job but she can’t manage paying rent? Shipping her furniture or buying stuff there? Cooking for herself? What can she not handle? Laundry?
It makes my Spidey-senses tingle. If she should pull this again, tell her you really can’t talk right now and perhaps she should discuss it with a girlfriend who knows her better. I don’t suppose your company has some sort of employee assistance for big promotions/transfers to a new area.
This is a big promotion within your company – correct? I don’t know why I have that idea in my head. She may be leaving your current employer entirely. No matter, if it’s a whole new company they are likely to have resources available to her in order to make the transition less fraught.
Even if it was totally innocent of her (which I doubt), it is another opportunity for you to stick to your boundaries regarding work life/family and home life. I’m friends with colleagues too but you have to work out for you and your family what and when it is approaching the boundaries.
I think you envision a nice picket fence between you and this woman. Maybe someday. For now, you need a moat with a hungry moat monster, a nice tall solid stone wall with only small narrow gate and a FABULOUS tree house for you and your wife. So to speak.
You can do it.
@Lee
yeah she has been spoilt at home so doing basic things will feel new to her when living out – she will manage but it will be a journey!
Even though it was same jobs we were not really competing as for me the pay was a drop, for her it would have been more. IT would have been nice to be offered but I did tell her that other interviews I have got a more suited to my seniority. So had told her that I probably wont go for it so we were open.
And yes the new company does have a relocation team which will help so in theory i shouldnt get a lot of the questions. Plus she has 3 sisters who she is close too and talks to about these type of things.
To be fair a lot of the problem is with me as I feel like a ‘bas*ard’ not checking in with her in this once in a life time move – last year I would have but now that I am encouraged by this blog I am limiting contact to Must have only until she leaves the company end of month.
I think an hour on the phone is enough support to be honest. I’m sure she’ll appreciate that you’ve helped, and it’s now time to give her space to make the right decision for her and her life. Her leaving the country is a blessing for you, so don’t risk that by giving her reasons not to stay, especially as you know they’re not real reasons.
I had a similar situation with my LO before she left. I helped her plan the next move, set her up with numerous interviews and recommended her to someone at the firm she eventually moved to. It was an intense period of interaction for us and certainly didn’t help my limerence at all. I did feel it was the right thing to do for her, and that I could then enter NC feeling I’d looked after her as best I could. She’s very young in professional terms and needed my direction. But now it’s time she figures it all out for herself.
You have to look after no.1 here and her presence is torturing you. You need to go into proper NC as soon as you can. Realistically that’s not until she leaves, but in the meantime you need to keep contact to an absolute minimum. That’s not 1hr phone calls!
@Vincent
Ok – valid point. Funny thing was after speaking on the phone i felt good that I could be a friend like any other friend. But yeah – dont plan on any long conversations. Its because she told me she had been crying – that hit the soft side in me. Hopefully that should be it now – atleast im not initiating contact. You guys saved me today!
Oh it’s not easy at all. It will feel just as wrong as it feels right, but that’s the limerence vs the logical side of your brain fighting it out. You want to help, but ultimately you have to remember you’re helping her at the expense of yourself. You go deeper into the mire each time you share an intimate moment like her being vulnerable to you. I know it very well.
My LO was in tears whilst talking with me about her career options as it was so daunting for her. I put my arms out to hug her and she just grabbed me and hugged me so tightly. I had to walk away at that point because I could feel myself getting emotional too. It was a rare, real, genuine moment of affection. On the flip side I knew as a married man I just couldn’t be having those with another woman, and in a way it helped my resolve to end it when she moved on.
A little late to this, but delighted to see the LwL community jumping in with great advice 🙂
This is a critical moment, Kevin, as once a limerent resolves to distance themselves, LO can often have some sort of emotional crisis that starts to draw them back. A good way to look at it is that in the bigger picture the most supportive thing you can do for LO is to continue to detach. There’s no need to be cold about it – and you clearly aren’t as a 1 hr phone call is very supportive! – but to make it clear from your actions that you are no longer as available for emotional support is ultimately better for both of you. She needs to find independent help, and you being less responsive will facilitate that.
Both of you will be better off, because of your resolve. Well done for not making that call!
@Vincent
Your story is too similar to mine – but if you dont mind I will learn from you and not get too involved in her job move too as that will slow my recovery. Sounds like you are in a better place though. I like what you say about brain vs Limerence and putting myself first – will remember that.
Did you find that now that she has gone out of the office Limerence is going down at a good rate and you can see the light…?
It’s a little bit better each day. So long as I’m busy it’s OK, but then someone will mention her name and I’ll be back thinking about her again for a bit. I have noticed that I have a range of triggers still, such as when I get off the train in the mornings i usually get a few WhatsApp messages delivered at the same time, which buzzes my watch. It used to invariably be from LO with something funny, gossip or telling me she was running late. I had the buzz as I got off the train this morning and my heart raced for a brief second only for it to be a message from my mother…
Since I went NC I’ve found myself thinking about when she might get in contact – Xmas, NYE, starting her new job. They’ve all passed now and she’s not contacted me. So now there’s no real reason to contact, no event on the horizon. We might bump into each other I suppose, or she gets drunk and texts, but otherwise that’s it now. That should help get her out of my mind.
Thanks all for your help – yes Dr L is right that this community just helps each other out – you all helped me and stopped me from messaging LO yesterday so this thing is working!!
@Dr L yes this is critical phase now as I am not more educated now on Limerence and what I need to do and have resolved to remove LO out of my head and the way I feel about it all.
Im back in the office today – I did get a message this morning to say “thanks for all the support in helping me decide to go for the job or not, your a really good friend and im lucky i can call you a friend”….to which i just said no problem as usually i may have gone all sweet LOL….
anyway she is taking the job so thats good.
Until then NC initiated by me and all professional.
Have a good week all – your all awesome
@vincent – looks like your in the clear as those are milestones when LO’s and limerants can interact – the only other one is Birthdays!.
So you could be clear. If she has drunk texted before then yeah then may do – hopefully you too can avoid drunk text as that yeah is a dangerous one.
This is such a great site, thank you DrL for creating this. I’m deeply ashamed to confess I’m a serial Limerent and suffering terribly from my latest bout with this demon. It’s my darkest secret, and has poisoned my life repeatedly over the last 30 years. Now it’s the worst of the worst, I’m “in limerence” with my client…again! I do not want to be thinking about her constantly, she is not available to me for numerous reasons, not the least of which is she’s my client, we’re both married, she’s ten years younger and waaay hotter than me. How can a grown man and accomplished professional possibly fall into such an absurd situation…again?!?!
Worst of all is the guilt I feel toward my sweet, loving wife, who has no idea this is going on. She certainly does not deserve to be (emotionally & sexually) abandoned because of a ridiculous fantasy. To wit, she just popped into my office with an affogato, as I was writing this comment. What’s the emoji for feeling deep shame?
I’m really not sure what to do (other than drain this site in its entirety to learn everything I can about this psychosis). NC is not an option as I work with her daily and my livelihood depends on this. Disclosure would be torture, suicide, and deep shame all wrapped up with a bow.
This has happened to me repeatedly over the years, and has cost me more than one job and a marriage. It’s enough to make one wonder what’s the point…
Not so pathetic that I’m looking for sympathy, just looking for ideas!
Welcome Misery (as it were…)
Ha! Lots of people here have asked themselves that question. There’s a short answer and a long answer. The short one is that LO has got just the right combination of appearance and personality to connect with something deep within your subconscious, and trigger all the neurochemical storms needed for a limerence episode. The long answer is that some complicated combination of inherent traits and life experiences have set you up with just the right vulnerability for this type of person, and the only way to get to the bottom of it is to do the deep work of understanding yourself at a fundamental level. Simple!
There are some techniques for dealing with a limerence emergency in the here and now (try downloading the “Take Control” book as a good starting point if you haven’t already), and there is a lot on the site to peruse. If nothing else, it is a good diversion from ruminating about LO.
Good luck and best wishes.
First time poster deep in limerence looking for help! I am married and am limerant for a co worker who is married too. This will be my 2nd LE the first over 10 years ago now was reciprocated became an emotional affair but she was unavailable and eventually chose not to leave her SO. Cue heartbreak!
Current LO had me at first sight. Elegant, attractive and confident. A move to a new office put us on the same floor with little more than a dozen other people though there is a physical distance between us.
Our departments interact and I used that as an excuse to get to know LO better.
An afternoon work bonding event was the trigger point for me as we ended up on the same team and i got to spend time to bask in her company.
We exchanged e mails in the following months mostly initiated by me but unlike my 1st LO never crossing any line and in general my gut feeling is that LO likes me but not in the way I would want.
For the past few months we have e mail contact most days often started with a necessary work issue that I will generally turn into general coversation. We will also talk a couple of times a day in our small office as I make a point of going over to her desk once a day.
My colleagues tease me that she is my work wife although I think I am restrained in my contact.
The buzz generated by what I consider a good day with LO is amazing, a personal e mail unprompted ( rare but has happened! ) or a day where I look back and we have an e mail trail of 20 plus e mails. Or perhaps a longer physical conversation than normal.
LO has confided some personal issues to me ( uh Oh!) and I need little exuse to divulge a few personal things too. I personally dread the though of a works evening do with alcohol and everything that brings and we have spoken about standing together at such events giving each other moral support. I know however from experience that we would spend some time together but she will migrate towards more like minded party people as the evening progresses whereas I would just like everyone else in the building to leave!
I have decided to minimize contact as I cannot cope with the highs and lows and can see my relationship with SO suffering and I don’t want that. I only really want LO to feel the same about me I wouldn’t dream of being a home wrecker. No contact is impossible due to work and similar to advice on here for a week now I have not initiated e mail contact and kept any contact polite friendly but business like. I have reduced the physical visits to her but cannot cut out completely as it would just look weird. I have tried this once before recently and didn’t visit her for a day or so and got a ” are u ok? ” e mail. Of course I fell off my white charger and right back to square one , happily so as she had e mailed me !
I am more determined this time but it’s hard. She has done nothing wrong and it feels like I am sulking with her and she us sure to ask again soon what is up. Part of me wants her too of course and part of me wants that to lead to disclosure but that is definitely not a good idea. It’s a small office I know she does not mirror my feelings for her and the aftermath would be awkward . I am senior to her too which adds to the reasons not to disclose.
Writing this itself is cathartic almost and I feel this week is going to be tough even more so if she challenges me. I hope my slow staged withdrawal process is enough not to alert her too much but let’s see.
I may not be available to respond too quickly to any advice but it would be appreciated.
Hi Jamie,
It sounds like you are doing everything right now, to fade out the limerence. Staged withdrawal definitely sounds like the right strategy. The other thing I would suggest is that you start focusing more time and effort on improving your relationship with SO. Having a positive goal in that sense is going to help shift your mindset from “I’m losing LO” to “I’m regaining my marriage, which I’d been risking”.
If you need some good fodder for “deprogramming” you could try imagining that your co-workers are joking about your “work wife” to your face, but behind your back that are mocking you for your lack of self control and your pathetic lovestruck behaviour. I’m not suggesting this is true! But it’s an effective way of linking negative emotions to day dreams about LO.
Finally, you could consider disclosing to your wife. It’s a hell of a motivator to stick to the honest path, cut contact, and let’s her know what’s going on in her life. It also helps remind you that this is a mess that you have created, and re-commits you to the idea that you and your wife are a couple who work together to solve problems. More thoughts on this here.
Speaking as the spouse, disclosure is a good idea but it’s significantly better to have a plan in mind to handle the situation at work. When you disclose make certain to tell her that you have a plan and what you have done to break the cycle. Ask for her ideas. Listen to her.
Sounds as though it’s time to plan activities to do with your wife too.
At this point, I don’t agree with Jamie disclosing to his SO. If he knows where he is and is committed to getting out of the LE and improving his marriage, disclosing to his SO may not help that. Disclosing to his SO may reframe his entire marriage and maybe not positively. If she trusted him before, she may not after he discloses. You can’t automatically assume that your SO is loving, trusting, stable, and can handle surprises well.
Once you throw that switch, you can’t undo it and you may radically alter the arc of a lot of lives. You really can’t predict how your SO will react disclosure with 100% certainty. You may think you know how he/she will respond but hit the right trigger and all hell can break loose.
I remember Sophie’s husband. He didn’t think what she was doing was a big deal. Take that to the extreme and disclosure to your SO can come across as self-serving and punitive, e.g., “Why are you telling me this?” Disclosure to his SO comes with as much risk as it does benefit. And, disclosure is a risk you don’t automatically have to assume.
At this point, I’d be more concerned about his image in the office. He’s providing a source of entertainment to them. Who needs NetFlix when you can watch it and get paid for it? Toss in there’s an implied imbalance in power and someone may be able to leverage that against him.
But Scharnhorst – his colleagues are already calling her his “work wife” and if one of them makes that sort of remark around his family, or in front of Jamie’s wife at a function, before he has made changes and the snickers have died away, it could become much worse.
What’s faster than the speed of light? Gossip.
So he may not want to use the words “limerence” or “office wife” but he *may* want to tell his wife he has had flights of fancy for another woman at the office but he’s not interested in them continuing and here’s how he is ensuring he doesn’t cause any harm to the marital unit. She may smile and tell him she’s dealt with the odd office crush herself, but she chalked it up to a passing fancy. That he is the Real Deal and he is still #1 to her.
Or not. But if word gets to her through back channels, that is more likely to hurt (it’s humiliating to be the last to know) and potentially cause fallout. So at the very least, commit to your plan to backpedal and limit your emails. If anyone in the IT department read them, would you be embarrassed? Your wife?
Sticking solely to work topics is best.
“I need little exuse to divulge a few personal things too.”
Uh-oh. You need to shore up your boundaries. If you wouldn’t share the same information with LO if your wife was at your side, then don’t share them at all. Think of it as safeguarding your marriage. Plus that is courting behavior. “Getting to know you, getting to know all about you!” Nice in songs and movies, not so great when you’re already in a committed relationship.
“I personally dread the though of a works evening do with alcohol and everything that brings”
Stay away from alcohol at those work functions at all costs. It won’t help your situation.
You can pump the limbic brakes. That’s why we have big wrinkly brains – to override our impulses.
Lee,
I agree with you about inadvertent disclosure at a work function. He’s in a minefield and he’ll have to actively manage getting out of it. Disclosure is not the only way out of it.
Risk = Threat x Vulnerability x Consequence
If his co-workers pose a threat of disclosure, he can reduce his risk by disclosing to his SO or he can keep the threat (i.e. coworkers) away from the vulnerability (i.e., SO) until the snickers die down. But, disclosure to his SO comes at a different risk. He should also prepare for the possibility of inadvertent disclosure. One thing that made my LE easier to deal with was there were no professional implications for me to have to consider.
As Sophie pointed out, Jamie knows his situation better than we do and DrL covers a lot of it in the blog she linked.
@Jamie
Only you know your situation well enough to know whether disclosing to SO would be helpful, and your motives for disclosing.
The LE made me realise that my marriage hadn’t been working – long before LO arrived on the scene.
Disclosing to SO, once I finally got through to him that it was a big problem, eventually lead to us having marriage counselling which really has helped a lot.
My other reason for disclosing was that thanks to the honesty of one of my closest friends, I knew I needed therapy. I needed SO on board with me having therapy as spending £50/week on that when I was earning £70/week at the time, meant I definitely needed his support!
The accountability aspect has helped too.
Just because it was the right thing for me, doesn’t mean it’s the right route for everyone. Dr L has a brilliant post on that https://livingwithlimerence.com/2018/05/15/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other
Good luck!!
Thank you everyone for their advice. I do not currently plan to disclose to either SO or LO. Both are entries into the unknown where currently I feel i can put the brakes on and withdraw tactfully from LO without arousing suspicion. Remaining business like and friendly but no more personal disclosures and definitely no work events with alcohol.
There is one function a year with families and I want to be in a position that I am comfortable at that event not worried by any potential meeting
I hope I am not too late to move away from the work wife tag though I realise this may stick a little.
I am committed to my plan of subtle withdrawal and focusing more attention on my SO and am actively looking forward to that. I just hope I can lessen the contact without offending SO or raising suspicion but I will have to deal with that if and when it arises.
For now I just take one day at a time..
Sounds like a good plan.
Since you two talk, is she aware of any of your hobbies, interests, etc.?
If she is, you frame your reduced contact in that context. Do you play golf? Tell her your new goal is to break 80 and you’re spending time online reading golf tips. Go out for lunch and buy some tees. Come up with a viable reason for not hanging around her office. Got kids? Tell her you’ve been researching college funding options. Look at a few to have some browser history. Tell her your thinking of remodeling the bathroom and you’re looking at tile samples. (That’s a really good one since most men would rather die than look at tile samples but stay away from fabric stores. No woman will believe that). Stay away from common interests.
The point is don’t make reduced contact about her.
Sounds like a solid plan and I hope it works in the near and long-term. Best wishes to you and yours.
Hi All
Some of you will remember that I posted about LE for a co worker and that she was gonna leave the company end of Jan 2019 . So she did and I had limited contact which helped.
She got a job in a great company abroad… But… I also did too and started a month after her in the same place.
I had to weigh up the opportunity Vs my Limerence and the opportunity won.. but now I dont have LC like I did when we were not in the same work place.
Plus we are in new country so have been helping each other out although I have been a bit reserved in that. My SO coming soon in a month too. Im being careful but keep finding myself getting down when I should be excited and happy about new career and new country….. we are not exactly in same team but our teams work hand in hand.
Luckilyh its a big campus with no fixed seating so not always in the same space as LO 8 hours a day which is good. But still, she does message me about having lunch and getting train together and spending spare time now and then (she is not becoming needy or anything actually)….
Im going to reign it in and hope she doesnt notice as much as she too will make new friends as well and less reliance on me….but like i said she is not all reliant on me as she has been here a month anyway – but in my first week she was ever so caring about me settlign in etc… which was nice and made me down as Limerence came back and I knew i cant have her.
Any tips on what to do and rules / boundaries i shoudl have for myself. One rule I did since 1 Jan is not inititiaing contact unless work related – that I have done till now and broken twice since then before coming to new country – so i can stick to my rules.
I have signed up for the course too.
any advice thoughts workds of encouragement – welcome
thanks
“Ever since his admission, he would refer to (co-worker) in present tense, all the while claiming he wasn’t in touch. Perhaps he wasn’t, but she was still very much in his mind. I finally realized I don’t want to be in a relationship with somebody who is constantly thinking about another woman. It took me a while, after having my soul broken and stomped on, to realize that I am strong.
I believed myself strong to stay, but I was strong enough to leave.”
For those who are preoccupied with another person, to the detriment of their primary intimate relationship – this may eventually apply to you. Is it worth it?
So as some of you know from my other comments, I’m lime rent for a co-worker 20 years my junior (I’m her boss’s boss). We’ve gone out on dates and made out for a week but then after a period of hot and cold (mostly cold), she’s told me she’s met someone else but she still wants to be “BFFs in the office”. During the long downside tail of our relationship, I became increasingly depressed and anxious, texting with little to no answers. I eventually sought therapy and also found this wonderful site.
We’ve now had 2 weeks of NC (only because she was on holiday) with no texts either way. I had made an action plan in advance of her coming back today (moving desks, booking external lunches, etc.) but she ended up being home sick! It feels very anti-climactic. Of course, I know I partly wanted to see her and that’s why I’m disappointed. The impulse to text her, scroll through old pictures or slip into a daydream is stronger than ever. I’ve resisted so far.
My therapist also made a few observations that may be relevant to others limerent for co-workers: by implicitly disclosing, I’ve handed her a hand grenade with which she can blow up my family, my career and the rest of my life at any time of her choosing. My therapist is convinced this is an enabling LO, needing validation and keeping a coterie of interested men like me in orbit around her. My therapist therefore also cautioned that full NC or LC could make LO feel rejected and she could lash out. So she advised, for example, keeping my plan of moving desks but still asking LO how her holiday was. This balancing act is going to be more difficult than I thought…
Ask your therapist if she recommends the Grey Rock Method. Unfortunately, your LO has leverage and may decide to use it. At this point, your goal may be to drift as far down on her list as you can get and live with it.
But, listen to your therapist.
Fred, very few people understand limerence and that includes therapists unfortunately. She’s almost certainly right in her diagnosis, that she’s an enabling LO who wants validation from lots of men. But you have to do what’s best for you. Be civil sure, but follow your plan. Move desks, draw the boundaries that should have been there, and make it clear with your actions that the relationship is now strictly professional. She’s met someone else anyway, she’ll move on to a new office BFF sure enough, and she’ll eventually get bored and leave and then you’ll be free. Keep your eyes of the limerence-free prize.
Thanks Scharnhorst and Vincent. I googled “Grey Rock Method” and it may be an option although it’s very out of character for me as I take the stage every Friday and present to my extended team, usually lead every meeting I’m in, regale my colleagues with colourful anecdotes etc.
And Vincent, thanks for bolstering my strategy. I know seeing her with a new office BFF will be hard but that is my way out. I too believe she’ll be bored and leave – that seems consistent with her personality and her statements. However, she’s only been here four months so it may be a while… In the meantime, I’ll draw the boundaries and try to choose the correct course of action in all my moments of choice.
Wow she doesn’t waste time! Only just arrived in the office and already made out with her boss’ boss!! There’s a chance she’s cynically planned all of this of course, gone straight to the top to curry favour. No wonder she wants to stay BFFs, suits her career plans I’m sure.
I say all of that having been in the same position. My LO, 20 years younger, effectively hooked me in over the course of about 6m and I eventually brought her into my team. It wasn’t ever physical but I think there were daddy issues at play, and a colleague referenced it the other day saying that “she clearly loved having you looking after her”. Which I thought was an interesting observation. If I could go back I’d draw the boundaries and not get intimate and co-dependent in the way we did.
You’ve got a chance to correct things now before it all blows up. In fact, you should read this comment to me when I was at your stage from a poster called Mark:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/2018/07/19/displacement-activities/#comment-1966
Thanks Vincent – that was very helpful and thanks for linking to Mark’s comment as well.
Yeah, she didn’t waste any time: I think our summer party was 3 weeks after she joined: she made sure to sit next to me and after a few drinks tell me that her last “boyfriend” was my age (20 years older than her) and her boss too… We were only mildly inappropriate at that party and still I felt a pit in my stomach come Monday morning. Now we’ve had multiple dates outside work, escalating to some passionate kissing and touching – so I’m literally at her mercy at this stage.
I hear she’s well enough to come back to work tomorrow so that’s when my deep work, reading this site, going to therapy and following Dr. L’s course all comes to a head. Balancing a staged withdrawal to limited contact while not pissing her off will be a tough act. But then again, she hasn’t texted me these last 2 weeks and our last conversation was about her saying she’s moved on and all this angst is just in my head… (Then a wonderful warm hug and a revealing, super cute picture of her walking down the street on WhatsApp)
Sorry to use this as my daily journal but writing about my struggles and hearing from y’all really helps me.
So LO was supposed to come back to the office today after two weeks holiday (NC) and two days off sick. I got to the office early (she’s always late) and went to my new desk on another floor. Has an early external meeting so I press the down button on the elevator and when the doors slide open, guess who’s the only one in there, ready to get off? That’s right. LO. To quote Depeche Mode, “I don’t want to start any blasphemous rumors but I think that God’s got a sick sense of humor…”
I’m pretty proud of myself though. No hug, just a friendly “How was your holiday?” and then excusing myself as I had to run to my meeting. So a “step up” in moment of choice! Seeing her brought everything back though. I admit I stammered, my heart is racing, the elevator still had her scent and how my presentation at this external meeting will go is anybody’s guess.
As I walked to the tube I repeated my mantra: “I’m not special to her. She’s bad for me. She’s like a drug. She’s heroin. She can destroy my family and my career.” But damn if she isn’t all glimmery and sparkly too… :/
Well done!
Mantra’s are good. When I first went NC, my mantra was “Stay away from that woman!” It worked ok. But, she’s in the mantra.
Since I had some mini-relapses recently, I needed a new mantra. My new mantra when I start thinking of her is, “You have better things to do.” No focus on her.
Fred, it certainly is a struggle. Many of us used (and still use) this site as a way to release feelings. And I used (and still use) this site to hear from others on their own situations. I can relate so much to how you are feeling, and I reflect upon how I would have done anything to “fix” my mind. ANYTHING. I feel that I owe it to others to “pay it forward” by acknowledging that I’m listening and I will try to share whatever relevant info that I can. Coming to this site also allows me to focus on whatever remains of my LE, and what I need to/should be doing.
It is unfortunate that managing this condition is similar to having an extra full-time job (with overtime) when you don’t really have the time. I hope your meeting went well.
Thanks Scharnhorst. Mantras are good and can both break reverie and help you “behave” in moments of choice. I sometimes say them out loud.
I ran into LO again as I was going out to lunch. I was chatting to another attractive female colleague so I was in a “position of strength”. LO kinda grimaced at me as I side stepped to let her pass (showing off her bare mid-riff ‘natch).
One interesting observation: She wore sunglasses in both our interactions so I haven’t seen her eyes today which of course would tell me a lot (and as we know the glimmer is often tied to the eyes). Don’t know if she’s hiding her feelings or trying to disconnect (or just trying to look cool). I do know my most vivid memories of kissing her were her eyes, wet with abandon with dilated pupils. And now they’ve been hidden from me. Good, I guess. :/
Thanks Thinker. Your support really means more than you know – I certainly appreciate it, especially as my situation seem quite similar to yours. The meeting actually went ok. Next week, we’re welcoming a group of students doing a 6w internship which I’m sponsoring but LO is project managing. And they will sit on my new floor so she’ll have a reason to come up there… Oh well, more opportunity to practice my tactics and moments of choice.
So final update for the day. LO reached out via our company chat re the project she is managing and where she wanted me to present our company strategy. Entirely reasonable. I answered professionally and after half an hour delay (according to plan) but had to swing by to go thru the slides. Once her boss left we chatted a little about her holiday and then we walked out of the office together. Luckily two other colleagues called me back so I left her on the landing where she patiently waited for me until I texted her that I was stuck (aw!). She sent me a cute picture of her and a cat and despite promising otherwise I responded immediately, again being the last to text. Damnit. But it could’ve gone a lot worse and those two colleagues saved me from another “down step” on the road to recovery I suppose, but I am a little disappointed in myself.
” I texted her that I was stuck (aw!). She sent me a cute picture of her and a cat…”
Yeah, don’t beat yourself up for slipping a little. She wanted that reply from you or she would have let it go without comment, or a generic reply. Sending a CUTE photo of HERSELF and a cat is a blinking neon sign to get your attention and to make it very difficult for you to ignore her.
Practice, Grasshopper. Lots of practice. Don’t cross that t! Don’t dot that i!
Fred,
Does your phone have a timer? Next time you get a non-work related text from her, set the timer for 10 minutes. When it goes off, see if you still want to respond. If you do, set it for another 10 minutes. Keep doing it until the urge goes away. If she asks you in person why you didn’t respond, lie to her and say you were in the middle of something or tell her you wanted to wait until you saw her in person.
Excellent technique, Scharnhorst, I’ll try that one too.
Thanks for the support Lee. Yeah, I think I can let that one slide. And that’s a good idea Scharnhorst. I even have a timer in my Apple Watch.
Having survived my first LO day after NC, I think I may survive this. I also finally got practical experience of what Dr L and y’all have been advising. It’s only now the penny has dropped. I don’t have to think or feel right, I just have to ACT right. If in every interaction, I don’t take or allow the conversation in the wrong (intimate) direction and if I don’t text or seek meetings outside work the. It doesn’t matter that my heart is breaking, that my mind is racing and I feel like shit. Actually doing the right thing will in time lessen those feelings. It’s a tough struggle but like the AA says “it works if you work it”!
We can do this
After many starts and stops I’ve got the following boundaries which i learnt from Dr L’s course. May help you and not make you feel so bad and give the impression of going cold turkey
– no initiating non work messages
– if she initiates non work message I cap to 7 responses only so be brief, informative and friendly
– only group lunches and coffee breaks so the conversations are more diluted
I’m on day 17. Yes I’m tracking it. Reinforces to me that I can do this and build my confidence.
It’s hard yes. Very. But what’s harder is seeing the vision of where I could be in six months time if I don’t take no action and how my life will deteriorate.
Thanks Kevin! It helps to know others are “working it” at the same time. I’m on Day 21 of deciding to do something but the first 18 were NC “gifted me” by LO being away. I agree it helps to have easy to remember rules of thumb. Mine are similar to yours except I only have a 10 min delay on answering if she initiates text messages and I have also added the obvious “no social media”.
So yesterday at a team dinner (no LO), when my direct reports got tipsy enough to work up the courage, they asked me what was going on with LO. One of the most junior even called her “your fling” but quickly backtracked when I asked what he meant. I was mortified (and obviously not as discrete as I thought). Turns out they were referencing the summer party and how she’d been all over me there (where nothing actually happened) so I could honestly deny it. One of my female direct reports was particularly direct and said it was obvious LO liked me the best of all the interested men in the office, much to the dismay of the “young stallions” and that lots of people thought she was a “gold digger” for going after a C-level exec so publicly and obviously.
So with this knowledge, I guess all of our (less innocent) lunches, coffee breaks, chats by her desks etc are seen by others in the office as confirmation / continuation of what they thought they saw at the summer party. And while they’re wrong about that particular event (I behaved responsibly and got her home safe when she was a bit too drunk) they’d be right about the rest as we then flirted and dated our way to second base (outside the office) and then had a slow motion car crash of our relationship as LO went cold and started to withdraw.
Good thing she was so adamant we’d never make out surreptitiously in the office…
My female colleague also said LO was “drop dead gorgeous” which made me feel oddly proud…
Fred, This is a good wake up call for you to really work on getting over LO. She already holds the grenade in her hands to blow up your life, that’s bad. But you don’t want to lose the respect of your peers and stakeholders at work and be defined through that.
“(I behaved responsibly and got her home safe when she was a bit too drunk)”
Oh stars and stones – this is what cabs, uber and lyft are for! To keep people from being in compromising situations that could lead to police reports and ugly expensive public washing of dirty laundry. No one looks good under a microscope.
Yeah, she has the grenade and is probably playing with the idea of pulling the pin.
“She can destroy my family and my career.”
Don’t think she doesn’t know it too. In fact, you’ve gone to second base with her, your subordinates and colleagues have twigged to your fascination with her, there are jealous younger men – you never know when or who will tell your SO (it sounds like you have one and I can’t remember if you do or not).
The event gives you a potential way out. The next time you and your LO chat, you tell her that people have seen what’s going on and have started talking. That doesn’t look good for either of you and from now on your behavior becomes beyond reproach and mean it.
The upside is it’s not a direct attack on her. If she insists on pursuing the LE, you may want to talk to HR. I’d also be looking at ways to get rid of her. Can you ship her far away and make it look like it’s to her advantage?
You need to drive the bus before she does.
Or, scharnhorst, she might actually see him saying it looks bad as a thrill, a leverage. It could show that Fred is scared word gets out and uses that against him.
If co-workers ask her what’s been going on, it is likely she spills the beans and tells one of the others about it. If one person knows, everyone knows. People talk, unfortunately.
Ok now you’re freaking me out people, which is probably a good thing. Last week my therapist said I should be afraid every time I look at her and act accordingly.
My story is scattered across different blog posts and comments but yeah I have an SO. My LO blew hot and cold after a week of reciprocation then mostly cold then after weeks of agony and unanswered texts told me she’d met someone else but not to worry as we could still be BFFs in the office. So she’s ended the LE (her part at least) and I’m left trying to pick up the pieces of myself that aren’t beyond repair.
We work together so NC doesn’t work but I’m working on withdrawal to LC and have had no social media or other contact for 18 days. She seems to mostly be avoiding me too, wearing sunglasses indoors, dodging eye contact etc so I just have to keep up LC and make the right choices in moments of choice. Like I said in another comment, I guess it doesn’t matter what I think or feel or how much I hurt as long as I do and act and say the right things that will put my on the path to recovery and towards the end of this LE.
Today was tough though as I cried at my therapy session and then bumped into her as I came back to the office and she stood there, glibly unaware of all the turmoil, midlife worries, unrequited yearning she’s unleashed in me.
“I should be afraid every time I look at her”
I think you have it lucky; I AM afraid every time I look at my LO, and I spend most of the year in school with her. It’s hell. I would love to be not terrified when I saw or heard her.
What did you therapist have to say about your SO?
What has your SO said since this set in? If she used to bring up that you seemed “off” but she hasn’t said anything in awhile and/or she seems a bit flat, you may be in the eye of the hurricane. Seriously, word may have gotten back to her and she may be running a relationship calculus program.
Neither of these are questions you are obligated to answer, obviously, but you may want to consider them to some degree.
“My female colleague also said LO was “drop dead gorgeous” which made me feel oddly proud…”
If your SO gets wind of that statement and your response…
“wearing sunglasses indoors”
That isn’t subtle. It invites questions from others and then *sniff*, *a little sob that catches in her throat*, *rapid blinking*, your goose could be cooked.
Treat her like a bomb – not a bombshell.
I love the fact that Lee always has the SO in focus. This is what it comes down to, think about SO. Think about SO and what this means to her, how much you hurt her with this (Lee, I needed this reminder too, thank you)
Thanks Lee. We haven’t really talked much about SO yet in therapy. Focus has been on surviving the here and now but we started doing deep work yesterday so no doubt it will come up. No I don’t think SO knows or suspects. I’ve been with the firm less than a year and she hasn’t even met anyone there. Regardless, of course I’m trying to rekindle our relationship and focus more on her. My therapist says she usually works with minimizing shame but in my case she wants me to feel more shame for what I’ve done to SO.
You’re welcome Sarah. I know Mr. Lee has a history of treating me and our kids like toys he can put on a shelf and expect us to be in stasis or something until he is ready to play with us. He often was angry that he was cut out of our lives when he was busy immersed in his world. You can only ask, invite, beg and cajole so often before you stop extending a hand, accept that the answer is always “no – I don’t want to, you deal with it!” before you believe it. Don’t phone it in! He still complains sometimes but subsides when I point out that I was the one logging the hours of time, money, conversations, P/T conferences, dentists, doctors, I kept up with my interests, family, friends and career, etc. while he was huddled in the den (feeling sorry for himself or angry that we weren’t sitting around gazing at him adoringly).
“My therapist says she usually works with minimizing shame but in my case she wants me to feel more shame for what I’ve done to SO.”
Well, that’s a relief. After all, feeling up another woman behind your wife’s back is a violation of the marital contract of exclusivity. At least she isn’t blaming your wife for her part in making you sneak around.
So…have you read up the HR manual? She has texts on her phone – will any of them get you fired, divorced or both? Is there any way to get yourself as far away from her within your job as possible? If shr gets transferred she could claim it is retaliatory for ending the “coziness”. If she gets promoted it will demoralize others on your team and possibly make them very angry because she would have effectively have “slept her way” up the career ladder. Anything you do re: HER career or position can blow up. Specta ularly. What can you control within YOUR position description?
Gah – what a frightening situation.
“…wearing sunglasses indoors…” sounds like she is a little drama queen. Like that’s not going to draw attention to her having peers ask her. If her colleagues start to suspect something, they will ask her about it. People are noisy.
Try your hardest to LC as much as you can, avoid being alone with her at all cost, and ALWAYS stay professional. Treat her like you would anyone else.
Yep she’s a little drama queen alright. And one hell of an enabling LO.
Thanks for the advice and the support. My problem is although I know what the right thing to do is, I secretly just want to get back in her good graces and carry on where we left off. So I just need to act right, even if I feel wrong. My therapist says to try to distance myself from her not ensnare her again. Wise woman.
I’m in the same boat, Fred. Not over LO yet. And in dangerous waters tomorrow. Head’s spinning. Must stay strong myself. Look… Mind over matter, you can do it!
Thanks Sarah. Hope it went well today.
Hey guys! I’ve been quiet for a week. Guess which of these things I’ve been doing: 1) Living purposefully; 2) Diving headfirst back into LE with LO. Yeah, sorry Dr. L but it’s the latter.
So in my therapy session last week, she suggested that all this obsessing about NOT obsessing about LO was actually keeping me engaged in the LE. That the mantras, forcing away thoughts or reveries and even posting here on LWL.com was a way of staying in the LE instead of focusing on the root problem of my marriage not being satisfying. Instead I should normalise things with LO, keep withdrawing and not fret so much about it all.
I’m not saying my therapist was wrong but in trying to normalise things with LO, I started noticing all the glimmery things that made me go crazy for her to begin with. We met up in the office, she texted me to say how happy she was to have me to talk to and confide in, how she could be herself with me. We planned and met up for lunch.
I know people, I know. It went from “Oh, this is nice. We’re friends.” to “Wonder how I can spice things up again” to “OMG you’re perfect in every way, why don’t you want me?!”. She even sent me a selfie from the shower (expert angles though so no naughty bits showing).
At lunch yesterday, she was finally open to talking about why things with us ended so soon and why she went cold. (Lee, you’ll like this). She said she actually tried to see things from my perspective, being married with kids, and realised I was in over my head and backed off and tried to cool things down as I was going full speed ahead (limerent that I am). Which actually was kinda sweet. She said I shouldn’t beat myself up about anything I said or did but rather that my situation didn’t allow us to go further. She grasped my hand and said we clicked mentally, emotionally and that our physical attraction was both powerful and electric but that it couldn’t be. And now she was in love with someone else. I don’t think you get more (or better) closure than that folks.
I got to experience my devastation all over again. I’m not OK but it was important for me to know what I’d experienced and thought I saw in her eyes those nights was real and not just a figment of my imagination. And that she was being the more adult of the two of us (despite being 20 years younger). I’m not sure how to end this rambling post but that’s where we are. She’ll be in the office Monday. I’ll be in hell.
I’m not either, but her advice did put you right back in harm’s way! Good that the outcome was OK, and I hope the closure means you’re able to manage your limerence come Monday. Lucky that LO didn’t suggest one last fling, though, eh…?
You might also want to delete the shower selfie 🙂
He should archive somewhere in case he needs evidence she was not an innocent party.
Good point. I need to up my cynicism quota.
Following up on the therapist advice:
I get the sentiment here. It’s not dissimilar to “focus on your own purposeful goals”, but the suggestion to normalise things with LO suggests that the therapist is a non-limerent.
“Just drink socially and don’t worry about it so much”.
Thanks guys. I guess there was also a difference in how the advice was given and how I implemented it. My therapist did not want me to go to lunch or start texting LO. She wanted me to stop fretting about not doing so. I just failed to draw the line and choose wisely in several moments of choice.
Yep, it’s definitely wise to work on making LO less central, and that is where the purposeful living pillar of recovery comes in. You have to have positive pursuits of your own to act as an attractive goal, as well as doing the work of making rumination and interactions with LO more negative.
You better do something with that shower selfie to underscore it was unsolicited because your SO will rightly throw you out for it.
Oh wait, you charged a flight for LO to/from Paris for her too. You might as well tell your wife, “I’d like you better if you weren’t so old and used up. Here is your competition. Now dance!”
I have no words for you.
For your wife though – http://www.chumplady.com and to seek an attorney.
“She said I shouldn’t beat myself up about anything I said or did but rather that my situation didn’t allow us to go further. She grasped my hand and said we clicked mentally, emotionally and that our physical attraction was both powerful and electric but that it couldn’t be. And now she was in love with someone else. I don’t think you get more (or better) closure than that folks.”
You MPDG put you on notice. She “closed the books.” You’ve been warned. If you say or do anything and it blows up on you, she’ll say it was your fault. It won’t matter if she starts it, she warned you. You choose to ignore the warning and it’s your problem, not hers.
Checkmate.
Your LO is good. She tells you she loves someone else, yet continues to send you shower selfies. “Stop trying to get close to me, but continue to dream about me”. I’m amazed she got you to think she’s the adult and you’re the messed up one. She’s in control, you’re still her puppy. She managed to tell you to stay away, yet hooked, so she can still ensure you’ll do anything to advance her career and do favors for her whenever she needs it.
It would not surprise me if she keeps on sending you “cute pics” of herself to just keep the Fire burning.
Yup. So just to be totally transparent about what a limerent sucker I am, LO had been planning to fly to Paris to visit her new boyfriend all week. She’s broke so he was buying her tickets. She told me all about getting her hair done, curing her cold, shaving her legs to get ready for him. Then the tickets fell through on Friday – her day of travel – and her wallet was at home and her PayPal account was empty. Guess who slid his AmEx across the table? (“Nooooooo!”) Yes, yours truly. So now I’m paying (a loan) for LO to go see her new boyfriend instead of me. Only LO fucked up and booked the return leg instead so she now can’t go. Boohoo.
All Friday night she’s texting me how she’s so alone and was so looking forward to this weekend. Saturday I shoot her a WhatsApp text saying I hope you’re feeling better today. No answer all day. In the evening, she’s running an open Instagram live chat with some rapper in Atlanta, sipping white wine and laughing. Oh, weird. She didn’t respond to my WhatsApp… maybe she hasn’t logged on there. Oh, she’s updated her profile picture to a new cute selfie but she hasn’t read my messages or responded to me…
Grrrrr. More fuel for deprogramming but damn if it doesn’t hurt.
Fred, what has helped me more than anything is seeing a therapist who specializes in OCD, to treat the obsessive-compulsive component of my limerent condition with cognitive-behavioral therapy. My regular (non-specialist) therapist was wise and kind and helped me a lot with my efforts to repair my marriage, but I’ve also needed this OCD/CBT specialist to help me tackle my residual intense obsession with LO. She gets it about the nature of limerence, and her approach is working well for me. What a relief.
Is that a possibility for you?
Oh, it definitely hurts, but as you know that’s the cornerstone to reprogramming. Mentally linking LO to pain not reward.
Another useful thought: I’m sure in the moment you felt like you were doing a kind thing to help LO and just enjoyed the warm fuzzies of making her happy. Now, though, you have written down in plain text what actually happened. You paid for your LO to go and visit her boyfriend. How would an impartial stranger (or partial spouse) react to reading that?
Take a moment to step outside yourself and really process how that would look to an outside observer. Is that the kind of man you want to be?
I have no words, Fred. I second DrL’s question, think about how this would look from an outsider’s perspective. Do you want to be that person that they see?
And also think from your SO’s perspective… what would your SO or kids think?
When this is revealed to your spouse and kids (make no mistake about it, she will do so the instant she sees an advantageous to do so) how will they view your motivations?
How about your employer? Employees? Friends?
I think she has a whole stable of rich older guys who she can tap for plane tix and vacations and money anytime she wants.
I bet that she sent her shower selfie to all of them. Over/under is five, any takers?
I have counted at least 5: the long-time admirer/friend; the minor prince in London; the latest Persian businessman in Paris; her former boss who owns a chain of Asian hospitals and me (I’m not that rich though).
Yeah, I get how bad it was everyone. Really, I do. That’s why I hesitated and posted this particular failure in a separate post. And yes, Dr L, even writing it in plain text here made me cringe at myself. We live in Europe Lee so this is a $160 plane ticket and LO will pay me back. Not that that ameliorates the situation. But in particular her treatment of me after this act of idiotic generosity has raised my hackles and helped me see her more for what she is. My long-time friend who knows all about the situation was just shaking his head today, saying I got what I deserved and that he never understood what I saw in her. Consider me duly chastised.
It isn’t the amount Fred, it is the principle.
Fred you’re taking some stick here, and that’s because when you look at your decisions and her manipulative behaviour objectively it all seems so obvious to the detached observer.
I will offer you some empathy though. I was where you are last year – I knew the relationship was wrong, I knew I was making bad decisions and other aspects of my life were suffering, such as family and career. But I couldn’t stop myself. That’s addiction for you. Hard to be sympathetic if you haven’t experienced it.
I think you have some way to go here unfortunately. It’s all happened pretty quickly for you and you’re not thinking straight. You haven’t reached that point where you truly resolve to sort yourself out. It will come, probably after LO makes you feel like an old fool a few more times. You’ll snap in the end, feel utterly pathetic and hit rock bottom. But then you’ll bounce off the floor, and start the long road back.
Try to keep your distance, keep talking to people, posting on here so you get some reality and perspective and start digging deep and figuring out your priorities. You’ve got a fight on here. With yourself.
I am in agreement with Vincent here. Although I never went quite to the extreme as Fred, all my morals went out the window, I was making really risking decisions and disrespecting a lot of people in the meantime. All for a hit of LO. Yes it’s pathetic and selfish but like Vincent said it is an addiction and something you feel you have no control of. At the time I had no care for anyone elses feelings. I was totally and utterly deluded. In my crazy mind I would have given up my right arm for LO. You really do need to sit down and have a really stern word with yourself. She is making a fool out of you and really if you carry on in this way you will be left with nothing and the regret will run deep.
Thanks Vincent and Rachel for the empathy. No, I’m not proud of my recent choices. I’m limerent. Everyone’s comments and LO’s total lack of gratitude or respect over this weekend has indeed been a wake-up call. Now that I have whatever “closure” I will ever get and sordid proof of what a lack of LC and control can lead to, I will dust off my worksheets from Dr L’s emergency deprogramming course and chalk these last two weeks as one giant step back down into LE and restart my ascent anew. Thanks everyone for being appropriately harsh with me.
We’re here for the social accountability whenever you need it, Fred.
Might be worth reviewing the course session on “relapses and resistance” too 🙂
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You just have to look good in turtlenecks.
Brilliant Scharnhorst
Nobody likes being ‘chumped’ which is why Lee always directs limerents to the CL website to get a strong dose of what the SO experience is like.
Fred just got chumped by his LO. Ironically, that experience powerfully counteracts limerence.
It helps me with my LE, for sure. I hate getting played for an idiot, so when I sense my LO taking advantage of my idiot limerent brain, the fog of stupidity rapidly clears.
Being able to feel anger towards the LO is a sign of recovery!
“It helps me with my LE, for sure. I hate getting played for an idiot, so when I sense my LO taking advantage of my idiot limerent brain, the fog of stupidity rapidly clears.”
Being played for an idiot is bad enough. When they go after your self-respect, it’s even worse.
My father told me that the single most important thing we have is self-respect. Boundaries protect it, you don’t let anybody take it, and you don’t put up with anybody who tries.
I was willing to take LO #2 back right up to the point where I realized that doing that would come at the cost of my self-respect. Nobody is worth that so she had to go. If I ever found myself back on the market, it’s the single most important reason I don’t think I’d ever re-engage LO #2. Returning to her would be a humiliating personal defeat.
Plus what if you sought her out and she sent you packing. Or didn’t recollect you at all.
Some doors are much better screwed shut.
“Plus what if you sought her out and she sent you packing. Or didn’t recollect you at all.
Some doors are much better screwed shut.”
To re-engage LO #2, my life would have to go in the tank so badly that I was so desperate as to think she had something to offer me and I would turn to her. I hope to God I never find myself in that position.
With respect to the former, if I did it, it wouldn’t surprise me if she sent me packing or ignored me entirely. She’s married now. Even if she weren’t, she declined every other offer I ever made her that mattered. With respect to the latter, I don’t think so. If she spends any time back in the 80s, she can’t escape me. I own that decade.
Screws? That door is welded shut.
I hope you used armor plating too!
You better do something with that shower selfie to underscore it was unsolicited because your SO will rightly throw you out for it.
Oh wait, you charged a flight for LO to/from Paris for her too. You might as well tell your wife, “I’d like you better if you weren’t so old and used up. Here is your competition. Now dance!”
I have no words for you.
For your wife though – http://www.chumplady.com and to seek an attorney.
Today’s letter may hit home for some.
“She said, “Mom, what do you do if you are married and you find yourself falling in love with someone else? What if you did marry the wrong person?”
I tried to tell her that you end one relationship before beginning another. And then she said, “But what if you’re not sure?”
“Tell your daughter to quit untangling the Schmoopie skein. “Cheating is wrong.”
That’s your answer.
“Cheating is wrong.”
Period. Full stop. Cheating is wrong if you’re married, it’s wrong if you’re stealing petty cash from company funds, it’s wrong if you’re trying to buy your way into an Ivy League.”
“Your indecision does not give you a pass to abuse people. Cheating is wrong. You’re not sure? Then you have some hard decisions to make — and you have to give some things up — like security and the services of the Wrong Person you are married to.”
https://www.chumplady.com/2019/09/when-youre-married-and-fall-in-love-with-someone-else/
Lee, this is where CL sometimes goes wwaaayy overboard. From that same post, here’s a sample:
“Also, 17-year-old daughter — adults don’t fall in love unless they’ve f****d. That’s what adults do — they have sex. So, the fucking happens before the “falling in love.” That’s cheating. Again, refer to “Cheating Is Wrong.”
Many or most of the limerents on this site haven’t had sex at all with their LO. Yet they’re struggling with strong feelings for the LO, and realize the inappropriateness of those feelings–which are identical to being in love. They’re desperately looking for a way out! They’re not the enemy, limerence itself is.
For me, the feelings of limerence crept up on me during ordinary day-to-day interactions with a co-worker. But I felt like I was falling in love, and PRIOR to it becoming an EA, I realized that I had to do something. I googled “how to fall out of love” and found this site.
LWL is great because DrL treats a painful situation with humor and a certain amount of judgment-free detachment.
CL is good because it slaps us in the face with the pain we’ve either caused, or are about to cause. But it goes over the top with the hate and vengefulness, and sometimes it’s plain wrong.
Yes, but remember the goal is to get “Meh”. It is a journey to look at someone who screwed you over and no longer care. I very deliberately didn’t include those phrases because I realize not every limerent has committed adultery. Some have and this is how it can play out. People whose lives were trashed by liars are angry and rightfully so.
It is also interesting to see how those who have been “chumped” embrace enforcing boundaries. Particularly after their trust was used to chase a third party behind their backs.
Limerents often refer to limerence as addiction. One thing that addicts who have quit do is call those still in the throes of addiction out on it. Ever sat in on a NA or AA meeting? Any group therapy session of any sort? It’s rough to witness. I wouldn’t want to be the one getting raked over the coals for minimizing, justifying, blame-shifting and excusing my hurtful actions.
So I am blunt. Don’t give yourself the inch because you may very well go the mile and worse – pretend it was Manifest Destiny to boot. Which led to a very ugly 500 years of history in the Americas (and counting).
Since my vows are much more important to me than some transient emotional experience, even if it was genuine, I knew I had to get those emotions back under control of my rational mind.
I draw a distinction between my normal, rational thought process, which controls 95% of my behavior, and my idiot limerent brain.
Plus you overlooked this portion, “People don’t “fall in love” unless they’ve made a considerable investment in the other person. That’s a series of decisions. Love does’t hit people like thunderbolts across the copier machine. (Hallmark movies notwithstanding.)”
I didn’t overlook that portion, even though I put that in the “Unsure” category in my mind. Many of the limerents on this site speculate about how there can be a person who hits them like a stone shatters a windshield, pretty much instantaneous.
I haven’t had that experience, but I can easily imagine somebody fantasizing about a perfect person to such a degree that they form pathways in their brain. Once they encounter a person who checks enough boxes of the fantasy, limerence activates, and they’re off.
Maybe that’s not ‘love’ but it probably feels like it to the limerent.
It certainly does feel nice – but it’s what you do when you don’t feel all tingly that defines love. Because if all you base your relationship upon is feeling tingly, then it’s not going to last when life gets hard. Life always gets hard.
I stole this reply from CL.
TwiceaChump wrote,
“Commitment and respect is a choice, shows character, and is seen in all areas of one’s life. This has to be important to you in yourself as it is to expect others to honor these values as well. When we ‘fall in love’, it’s infatuation and hormones after we’ve gotten close to someone we’re attracted to. It’s natural and nothing to be ashamed of, is part of the human experience. It’s how we act on those feelings.
For someone in a committed relationship, you don’t act on those feelings to ever get yourself into a compromising position and hurt not only yourself, but everyone you love that would be affected by those actions.”
Hi All
Been a while since i posted. Made good progress at work where I havnt initiated contact and keep contact to a minimum when she does contact me – which is not all the time anyway.
I have also got rid of the uncertainity and know she has nothing for me and is just friendly and sometimes a bit needy too when stressed but overall just a normal human. And i thought it may have been reciprocation so I get limerence…
Anyway is it normal to feel guilty and bad that I am not as proactive with her now and just reacting and being normal so that it doesnt get akward?
I just dont want things to get akward thats all.
Amazing! Keep up that attitude and you’ll be fine.
Kevin, that sounds like “normal” living. Life has gotten in the way of me being proactive with PEOPLE THAT I REALLY LIKE (including some work friends) but just haven’t reached out to in a while. Maybe try to feel guilty about these other people in your life that you haven’t reached out to in a long time for one reason or another. After writing this, I might reach out to someone tonight (not LO)!
Thanks all
From outside I look normal. Inside I’m different. So just trying to fake it till I make it.
I’ve stopped all the sweet messages and the nicknames and just being reactive to her messages instead of proactive and checking on how she is etc.
Just wonder if she will notice the withdrawal and ask me. That’s a separate discussion on how I handle that. If she does notice it.
Does anyone ever feel as if their LO is implementing “staged withdrawal?” I have convinced myself on multiple occasions that LO is or was also limerent for me, even though I doubt that now. But sometimes it seems she is obviously trying to gradually move things back toward a strictly professional relationship. Or it could be an example of an “indecisive LO,” which I think has also been written about here. Regardless, what drives me crazy about it and the LE in general is the constant pretending and inability to just be real and talk about it. I would almost rather LO come out and tell me she is uncomfortable and wants to withdraw in order to prevent herself developing deeper feelings for me, and that for me not to take offence or read into it, but that it is purely self preservation on her part. I could respect that, even though it would likely spell the end of the LE. I would actually welcome it.
Does anyone honestly think that by the end of the staged withdrawal, the other person would just forget What Was Said or that there was a terribly palpable mutual crush? I see the point of it, but as someone who is on the other side (I suspect), it seems so silly.
I will never forget. And I don’t think she will either.
B, am in very similar situation with boss LO and I hate it so much! I
feel the same – I so wish we could just have a mature conversation about it rather than this whole never-ending pretense of everything being normal and our feelings towards each other being professional only when clearly they run deeper. It feels so uncomfortable and false. But I must respect that he has set this new boundary because he needs it for his mental well being. Isn’t it so much harder to have LC forced on you when you don’t feel ready for it? As much as I desperately crave this explicit mutual disclosure, I also know deep down that such a conversation might only serve to deepen my limerence rather than help me recover from it. And I agree B, we will never forget how we feel/felt but fingers crossed, we may get past the obessession eventually.
I recall DrL talking about his experience of staged withdrawal and saying that while it did eventually end his limerence, his LO will always have “emotional significance” for him.
I recognise that impulse, Allie, but (as I think you sense) it’s a trap. First, you can’t control the consequences of your “mature” conversation, because you can rehearse the calm, wise words as often as you like, but when you are there in front of LO in the middle of disclosing, your heart will be hammering like mad and your emotions will be all over the place. Second, they may not respond in an equally calm and mature way. They may freak out, or point out that you have crossed a line, or report you to HR. Third, the underlying impulse is the desire to get reciprocation, and if you do, you may get temporary relief, but then, just as you say, the limerence is likely to deepen.
It does, at first. But the funny thing is, after a while, it becomes the new normal. That was my experience at least – as you say, my old LO will always have emotional significance for me, but by the end of our time together, the civil, professional tone of our interactions felt natural.
Allie,
I can offer one bit of advice from personal experience. I previously disclosed to LO, in a respectful and mature way. She admitted what I already knew: that it was a mutual crush and she shared similar feelings for me. So even though we had “the conversation,” something about it wore off over time, and I began to feel myself craving another disclosure. It’s so similar to any other addiction. I had the ultimate hit – reciprocation in the form of LO telling me there were mutual feelings. But it never lasts. I slowly pushed the relationship deeper because I thought maybe it was mutual limerence, not just a mutual crush. That’s when I went too far I think. I realized she was not limerent and that for the first time things were uncomfortable for her. More time passed and here we are. Sometimes flirty and friendly, others it seems she is withdrawing. At times I just want to whisper to LO: “you know my feelings haven’t changed, have yours?”
What I’m saying is this: don’t disclose. Even if it doesn’t go horribly wrong, the high you get won’t last. You will want another. And another.
Think of it this way. one of 3 things will happen: 1) an affair, 2) LO freaks out and reports you, or 3) something in between, which in essence is more uncertainty, and of course deepens the LE. That is exactly what happened to me. I thought I could be satisfied with the secret knowledge that she likes me too and we could just go about our business. Nope. It won’t last.
Thanks for the wise advise both.
The idea that the disclosing itself would become addictive is incredibly useful to me, thank you B! I can now see that it would be like quadrupling my dose of drug thus worsening the severity of my addiction. This understanding will really help me work on my craving for that “one-off” disclosure conversation as it has now been rendered utterly pointless.
Allie- “”But I must respect that he has set this new boundary because he needs it for his mental well being. “” Same with my LO, I won’t bore you with how many times I’ve been tempted to disclose but I never did. I got a golden opportunity just before virus lockdown and it took every fibre of my being to resist. My LO asked me outright how I’ve been, this after his constant hot-cold behaviour which he even alluded to a few weeks prior. I felt he was pushing my buttons hoping for a reaction , I never gave him one.
Some days I kick myself as I wish I just told him, other days I am proud I held it all in.
In a perfect Limerent world we both disclose and we live happily ever after, but I so know that’s not going to happen.
Wow….well done for resisting such a temptation Lee-Anne! That’s impressive self control, you should be proud. Not sure I would have been quite so good 🙂
Reading this is switching on so many lightbulbs for me after a lifetime of LE. I had an EA with boss/friend a while ago but we ended things quickly. It was then very hot and cold between us for a long time. I think it confused us both and I tried to talk to him about how we could manage it but he wasn’t really willing to talk.
Things changed a month or so ago and I am now reading this and wondering if he read it too because it really feels like he has done a staged withdrawal on me -slowly stopping messages out of work and going very work focused during work hours. I haven’t asked why because I think it is really helping me. Sad to not be friends after many years but I realise it’s the best thing for my mental health right now.
Thanks so much for this website. I will read everything here.
Hi Cheryl, I think your comment summs up my scenario. My LO reports to me, we very professional at work, but do social out of work and this is where my Limerence started, I suspect. Our friendship development outside of work, text msg etc. I thought, I could control this. She would text so much, send photos (nothing bad at all) but, I started to crave the high volume messages but then she would just withdraw for a week, maybe 2 and it all starts again. How did you manage ?
I need some guidance, I really thought I had far more self control, but here, I am. Not exactly sure how I got into this position but now. My LO, is a coworker reporting to me. I suspected all this started with some social events outside of work and spending time together, which then resulted in the coworker sending me daily instant messages, some work related, some not, some topics crossed the sexual nature and she has opened up so much about her private life. To such an extend that, I started to like the amount of messages and actually get excited when there is a message. There is a pattern, huge volume of messages, then a quite week or two, as if she is withdrawing then it all starts again. The professional part of the relationship is still there and we continue to be professional, but, I do know for a fact my ability to manage the professional part is being impacted. Both of us are married and we have not done anything yet, other then the chatting. I know this is wrong on every level but my head is spinning. I’m not sure what to do. I do know, I need to stop this and ensure that it does not escalate, also, I’m not really sure how she feels.
Hi Charlie. I have been buried in an LE for my boss at work for a year now so understand the complication and constant challenge of a workplace LE. The sooner you deal with this, the easier it will be.
If you want this to end, you need to enact a gradual, staged withdrawal from her – put strong boundaries in place. Make a plan of how, what and when. And do not explain to her what you are doing and why, E.g. Gradually adjust your communications to be professional/work related only. Stop messaging her outside of work. Maybe start with no messaging her after a certain time in the evening and gradually move it to never when outside of work. Gradually move to being friendly but not warm, and shift conversations to being work related. Avoid being alone with her – if you take lunch together, make an excuse not to. This is not easy and you may feel guilty about gradually unfriending her. If you do feel bad about her, just consider that in doing this, you are being kind to yourself and your SO, and you are putting your SO above your LO which is exactly as it should be.
There are blogs on this site about staged withdrawals – DrL used it himself when he withdrew from his subordinate LO. If rumination is a big issue, there are some great techniques in the Emergency Reprogramming course for dealing with that.
“I’m not really sure how she feels.” Try to accept that you will never know this and that that is OK, you don’t need to.
Wishing you well.
Thanks Allie, some gold in your response! But as you know it’s not easy. I have already started the stage withdrawal (not knowing what it’s called, but I do need to have a clear plan and strategy in place, or it will fail. About putting my SO above LO is hard but spot on, as I do feel I have withdrawn from my SO because of my obsession with my LO, and any SO deserves better. I sure will check out the blog and thanks for the advice so far.
Hi Charlie – firstly commiserations, I know exactly how you feel. That was almost my exact situation, except my workplace subordinate LO was single, but otherwise, the texting etc, is very familiar.
Secondly, Allie has nailed it with the advice in her post, that is spot on for what you should do. It didn’t quite work out like that for me in terms of the staged withdrawl, but I’m now 2 years NC and can tell you that it will get better from here, you won’t always feel this way. But maintaining as little contact as possible is key. I got lucky as my LO was forced to leave the company, and my chance of NC was presented to me. I don’t know where I’d be if that hadn’t happened frankly but my plan was to use the approach Allie describes. We fell out, so once she left it was relatively easy to stop the contact, and whilst I want through an absolute rollercoaster of emotions, the recovery was slow but steady. Good luck, read everything on this site and keep posting.
Thanks Vincent. Indeed the rollercoaster of emotions are just mind boggling. On some level, I do question why she is sending me so many text, the gossip, the over sharing and then just massive radio silence and withdrawal. That just gets me. Now, the holiday period we in now has forced some NC as we all on leave and other than well wished here and there, nothing has happened (text wise) and somehow that’s a relief. That has not stopped me from thinking about the LO but suppose that’s the issue and by definition limerence.
Jobs won’t be changed anytime soon for either of us, so no movement in that, and I do need to think further then the LO and at my and her professional future and the risk at hand.
Charlie,
“On some level, I do question why she is sending me so many text, the gossip, the over sharing and then just massive radio silence and withdrawal. That just gets me.”
She is doing it on purpose, more than likely. My LO –also a co-worker — did the hot/cold thing, too. He’d disappear and reappear. I think for the validation and attention that I was still interested. At one point I took a different job at the same company, one that put me in a different part of the work campus, which was very large, and meant seeing him not every day as I had previously but once every couple of months. It didn’t help. Part of me was still hoping he’d come and find me (which he would do every so often, but it was torture because it meant the sadness of realizing he was making so little effort). I finally left the company entirely almost a year ago (haven’t seen or heard from him since) and it’s the only thing that helped me start to get over him.
As others have said, trying to understand the LO’s motivations will drive you crazy. As it did me. In the end I settled on a narrative that was felt likely and focused on myself and my SO. My LO was much younger, and so I felt like she enjoyed the attention, relied on me in certain areas of her life, and whilst she probably had an inappropriate crush, she was never going to act on it with all the repercussions that would have lead to. Not being a limerent, she could dip in and out fairly easily, which is why things felt hot then cold from my point of view.
With your LO, she might think you and her are friends and no more. Lots of people think men and women can be friends (I personally take the Harry view from the When Harry met Sally). Maybe she enjoys a little flirt, which she may see as harmless. Maybe she is laying the ground work for an affair. The range of options is very wide, and you’ll only find out by disclosing which risks blowing everything you’ve built with your SO wide open. Even then she might not tell you the truth and you’ll be left with nothing.
All routes from here have sacrifice. Either ruining the friendship with LO by putting in the distance needed or your marriage with SO if you carry on the current course. As you say this holiday period has presented a nice opportunity for lower contact. Try to maintain it in January and see what happens.
Hello everyone,
Let me tell you my own limerent story. It all begun one year ago at work. I’m about 40 and married for many years. Never had experienced limerence until then.
She was sitting right next to me in the office. At first I was not interested in her. Then the pandemic begun and our working shift hours coincided. She was flirting with me, and with many others as well. I returned the flirt back. For about two months it was getting deeper, and we came close. No limerence yet. I decided to disclose. She rejected me, but noted that this was mostly due to my married status. She explicitly stated that she wanted us to stay friends. I respected it. It hurt me a bit, but in the meantime, I started accepting it. I kept slightly distant for a while and everything seemed good.
About one month after my disclosure she started approaching me again in a mixed manner both friendly but also emotionally. We went on a platonic date. Summer vocations came so it was a good chance for me to try keeping a little distance for my own protection. During vocations she texted me almost every day. Sending pictures of places asking how I am etc.
September came and we became very close at work. Suddenly our working shift changes, LO starts to make emotional statements such as, I will miss you, I don’t have a good time without you etc. She starts phoning me. I return the calls. We start talking at nights, and every conversation is long and emotional. When we meet at the changing of shifts our hands touch romantically, frequent hugs etc. During November and December It starts feeling as if I have a parallel platonic relationship with my LO. Before Christmas, at the same time this event reaches its peak, she tells me that she has found a boyfriend. I feel awful but I don’t show it to her. From that point until now the whole situation has been steadily declining, initially from her side, and lately from my side too.
But now I have fallen deeply into limerence, while she seems to have found her purpose. So, what was all this about? I have no direct answer.
I feel like she divorced me after a relationship, even though nothing physical happened. It is all in my head. Currently I’m implementing staged withdrawal, and see what happens. But I can’t get her out of my mind. I thought of making a second disclosure, but I did not, as it seemed as a suicide mission.
Thank you for your time, this blog helped me very much!
Phil
Hello, I am late to this article, but thank you because it is eye-opening. My husband has a sales rep that has been texting him for work reasons and it is definitely a little more for her. She knows he is married, but has mentioned he is her teddy bear and kind of baiting him into saying stuff back. I have brought it to his attention that her actions are very unprofessional, but I am kind of at a loss on what else to do. I do not want to harp on it with him and I do not want it to be uncomfortable for him at work or seem crazy, but If she continues, I feel like something will need to be said.
Jg,
“If she continues, I feel like something will need to be said.”
Yes, but he has to be the one to say it and not get baited by her comments. I am not saying he is; just that he has to be the one to put up the boundary.
He can shut that down pretty quickly. It’s positive that he told you about it.
And, also, this woman could be someone who flirts with a lot of people. Most flirtation is a meaningless and limerence is rare.
Thank you for this site – its great to know i am not the only one that feels like this.
I have worked with LO for over 3 years and she reports to me. I never had limerence for her until the last couple of months. My SO doesnt know and i have been a mess.
Some further context: LO has no idea how i feel (and after reading much on the site i have no plan to disclose). She has done nothing and has always been professional. I am pretty sure that the feelings are not recipricated (but my brain wont let go of them!)
Recently my feelings have escalated to a point where i struggle to focus on anything else. I have reduced our in person meetings to about once a week. I dont ask personal questions anymore (not even how was your weekend) as i know it becomes a trigger. But everything reminds me of her and makes me think of her. My SO and marriage has been great for over 10 years but this is the first time i am under strain.
My SO knows i am depressed and i talk to her about the depression, but sharing the root cause would be disastrous and she would not understand. I have tried to focus on my own marriage but my thoughts struggle to move away from LO.
Its been about 2 months of feeling like this. We also need to travel together for work every now and then (which is not avoidable) and which I hate because afterwards i regress into a worse limerent state afterwards(even though nothing unprofessional happens).
I hope that time makes things better – right now i am a bit lost but know that i hate feeling this way. I also hate having this burden that i know i cannot share with SO or LO. Each day is a real struggle. Any advise would be much appreciated.
Vee…you are me. After 3+ years I developed limerence for my employee. She is 14 years younger but my LE started because I thought I was catching attraction vibes from her. She starting doing a few little things…like texting me personal, non work, talk. This set me off and I fell for her deeply even though I have a happy marriage if 22 years. I leaned into building a personal relationship with this woman for about a month but it never really developed and then I found myself in distress over her and I found this site. I was fully dealing with limerence.
I too went into a depression for a bit and told my SO of my depression and framed it as work stress. She does not know of my LO. I did start seeing a therapist which has been good.
I am one year into LE now but it is manageable. I have to work closely with my LO but the coexistence gets better. If you go to the recent blog on pain, I share my current strategy there.
And, I ended up disclosing to LO about 5 weeks ago due to some circumstances. I did not intend to do it and I do not recommend it generally. I had to because she was pursuing a personal friendship with me that was causing me a lot of distress. Even today she claims she only feels friendship, but her actions are very suspect a lot of the time.
Let me know if you have any specific questions. This site got me through a lot of the confusion of it all which is more than half the battle. Limerence us manageable and potentially beatable. You’ll get there.
Does your company have an Employee Assistance Program? If it does, I recommend using it.
At times like this, the right pro can be a godsend. They can help with the clinical depression and they can provide an unbiased ear you can open up to.
You can also bounce ideas off them before you do anything you’ll regret. Don’t underestimate how valuable that can be. Plus, they’re usually free and are done on company time which reduces the risk of your SO finding out before you’re ready to disclose, if you do decide to eventually disclose. Depression is leakage. Leakage can kill you.
If you don’t have an EAP, you might have to resort to subterfuge with your SO. It’s not the preferred method but it can work.
Is there any possible reason you can pin the depression on? If there is, you use that as the excuse for professional help. Where those sessions go when you’re there is wide open.
I eventually disclosed to my SO. Three years after my EA/LE ended. Timing is everything.
From your post, it sounds like you’re trying to avoid trouble vice having performing active damage control. That’s fantastic!
LwL can help but sometimes you need to call in the pros.
Welcome to our club, Vee! You have come to the right place. You are a classic limerent.
1. I recommend that you watch a short video on YouTube
“How to Deal with Intrusive Thoughts”
https://youtu.be/laeYq51SYA0
2. I also recommend that you replace daydreams about LO with something else. Let’s brainstorm, what are your hobbies or interests? I pour myself into running because I get a runner’s high, I love physically demanding activities, and the math fascinates me (I always have a problem to solve like, how does slope effect my heart rate?) It’s interesting enough that I can push thoughts of my LO aside by watching a running video on YouTube. I think Speedwagon plays guitar. What do you like?
3. Rufio and Speedwagon have similar stories to yours. Adam’s story might be a good one too. You might benefit from reading the comments on the New Years post where their stories are laid out nicely.
When this is over, you might be grateful for the experience. Many limerents experience personal growth because of their LE. Good luck!
My LO is a former co-worker who has left to find different employment. It’s been 8 months since she left and the limerence feels not much better now than it did day one.
I too did not feel the limerence for LO right out the gate. I known her about 2 years all together and about a year into working with her did I get the glimmer for her. She is a very wonderful, kind and sweet lady. Not sure how anyone can NOT fall for her.
I did disclose to my wife but that was because of other circumstances that were worse to let hang than to try and explain to her about limerence. But had those circumstances not been present I would not have told her either.
Miss Lovisa is right on the money about occupying your mind if the thoughts of LO get intrusive or you find yourself daydreaming about LO. I have recently been pouring some time into online gaming with my son after work. It helps me stay focused on playing with him and not on LO. But some days it is very difficult to focus on what I should and not think about her.
There is a lot of help on this blog and also a lot of people with some great advice, life experience and information that can help with your limerence. I have only found out about limerence a month or so ago and these people have been an incredible help to me.
Vee. I’m going to share a little bit more about my situation and what I have discovered in hopes it helps. I remember those early days of my LE, so I feel for you.
I discovered that my limerence was not going to shut off magically. At best it might be a slow fade over years. So I had to learn how to cope and manage a coexistence with my LO and that is really about understanding my emotions and what triggers reward and what triggers depression. Depression always followed reward.
For me, LO displayed many cues of attraction and would text me enough if off work ours to keep me wholly uncertain of her feelings. I took them to be romantic but in reality she saw me as more of a mentor role model type and because she is in a disappointing marriage, she wanted some level of relationship with me, but not a romantic one. It was this uncertainty that was the most difficult to deal with and led to my disclosure. The disclosure has lifted the “secret” I was living with so to speak but has not calmed the limerence.
What I learned is to coexist in predictable routine with LO. I am ok with a certain level of in office interaction with her. I am not OK with outside the office texting which we did a lot of. It just caused me too much uncertainty and expectation with her.
I have also learned to accept that the fantasy I have for her and me is just that, fantasy. So I take some pleasure now in just being an excellent boss to her and filling a role in her life of a man that sees her, appreciates her, and encourages her and I can tell she values that. In a way it gives me some purpose with her.
Last, some days are still tough. She is gorgeous in my eyes and the desire to pursue her can be strong. I have found that a light, warm office relationship with her seems to provide me the best relief. It is not in my nature to be cold so this never works for me. If I need a warm interaction with her I don’t shy away from it and because we need to collaborate every day, I get one most every day. But it all ends at the office door.
I hope you take in this site and learn as much as you can from the blogs and people here. Limerence us here to stay for a while so start working through how to understand it, manage it, and eventually beat it.
BTW…was there any particular thing that triggered your romantic desire for her or was it a slow build?
“ The disclosure has lifted the secret I was living with so to speak but has not calmed the limerence.”
Oh Speedwagon, I’m sorry. I thought you were on the fast track to recovery since disclosure.
You are learning to live with limerence. That is progress. You have come far since we met. Go Speedy!
Thanks for all the comments.
Speedwagon – i can relate. I also framed it as work stress with my SO. I am looking into therapy as i think it is the right next step. Its great to know that the limerence is manageable after a year – i really would like my working relationship to go back to how it was before i went crazy 😉 I am interested to hear that you disclosed – did you feel better afterwards? And have you disclosed what happened to your SO?
Your comments on depression following a high is so true. The highs are clearly linked to closer work collaboration. I am really trying to keep interactions to a minimum but i already know the next month has many work meetings where LO will be in close proximity. Thanks for all your advise and sharing youe experience. On your question of what trigerred it – there were a few things: 1) she broke off a bad relationship 2) she suddenly spoke to me about some personal issues (doesnt happen anymore) 3) we navigated some tough times at work that forced us to know each other better. The day that everything changed was at our year end party where i saw her chatting (pretty innocently) to other guys and suddenly felt crazy jealousy and this kicked the limerence into overdrive. Before this it was just a glimmer. Then it became much more.
LimerentEmeritus – we dont have a program like this at work but i agree that professional help is a great next step. How did the disclosure to your SO work out and how did you feel afterwards? I agree timing is crucial as right now i feel like disclosure to her when nothing is in her control to change would not be helpful.
@Lovisa – thank you for the youtube link. Anything to shift my thoughts is helpful. I am a football fan (not the american kind) so am trying to use that to distract me where possible. I am also considering starting meditation lessons to help. Thabks for suggesting the new years thread – i missed this and am working my way through the comments but this has been very helpful.
Adam – i am surprised that NC for 8 months did not help. I keep thinking that my seeing her often is causing this situation to continue. Hope it gets better soon. “How can anyone not fall for her” – i know what you mean!! Feels the same.
I will see how the coming weeks go but i really appreciate all the thoughts and advise. It feels good to share some of this.
Thanks for sharing, Vee.
Sorry this happened, you did not ask for it and boom, there it is…limerence. Work dynamics are such tricky things but it sounds like you are doing the right thing. I have to be imagine her being single is tough because you might have to watch her start to date someone. My LO is married, and I even get jealous of him. I have to meet him in a couple weeks, ugh!
I found that after a while the in office collaboration interactions become routine and less of a reward. I did not feel as euphoric after them and thus did not feel low after them either. It’s all part of the predictable routine I manage for myself, I know that during my work day I may collaborate with LO 2-3X and I am used to it. But I stay away from other things with her like office outings and texting (she used to text me some during work as well as after) and deep personal talk.
As for my disclosure…you can read it in real time in the New Years blog. Actually, if you go to the Rescue Fantasy blog first you can read the escalation of our relationship that led to the disclosure. It’s all immortalized here on LwL…lol.
Disclosure did lift the weight I was carrying of the secret of my attraction. I am not going to lie, that weight was heavy and the uncertainty of her feelings were driving me crazy and disclosure has been a big relief of that. But I am still as limerent for her and still feel the pain of limerence, just in a more dull stable manner now. And disclosure was hard on her for a good couple weeks, she felt guilt over her behavior towards me, and for a bit I was scared she was going to quit. She is stable and cheery now and past that but it was tense and I put in a lot of effort to make her feel comfortable.
As for my SO…limerence has been great in rekindling romance with her. My wife is great, and we did not have issues, but we were going through motions a bit. Limerence increased my libido, and gave me renewed interest in affection towards her. We have never been closer. Seems like such a paradox, feeling madly in love for another woman and at the same time wanting to be closer to my wife. Weird but true. This is why I have not disclosed to her, because it has been positive and I don’t want to disrupt that.
Hang in there! You are on the right path.
I have bad news, Vee. My first LE lasted 17 years. It was dormant at times, but any contact or reminder of LO1 triggered my limerence. Unfortunate for me, LO1 got famous and I couldn’t escape him. We even moved to a different country to get away (my SO didn’t know I was running from someone when we moved. He just thought I was adventurous.). When we lived in a different country, somehow my LO1 knew when I was back in town for visits. He would contact me out of the blue when I happened to be in town. I just couldn’t run from him. I finally disclosed to my SO and I regret it. Before disclosure, the pain was my problem, now my SO experiences pain when LO1’s name comes up. It is at least monthly and it really stinks!
You may need to take Speedy’s approach and learn to live with limerence. It can last for a while.
Vee,
You can read about it here. It’s under my old screen name: https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other/#comment-6445
There’s another post somewhere that talks about another conversation my wife and I had about my EA/LE.
When we were talking about LO #4, my wife flat out asked, “Did you love her?” I waffled. I told her that I didn’t think I could fall in love with someone that I never actually met. My wife has lived with me long enough to know the difference between a response and an answer and she wanted an answer. She asked again, “Did you love her?”
At the time, I might have loved LO #4 but I wasn’t about to admit it so I copped out and replied, “I don’t think so.” It didn’t start that way but once LO #4 began to open herself up to me, different story.
7+ years out, LO #4 was a pothole on the road to happiness and a footnote in my life. LO #4 was never more than a sideshow and it’s unlikely she ever will be more than a sideshow.
I spent 5 years with LO #2 and asked her to marry me. She was the most important person in the world to me from age 27-32. She has her own chapter in my Book of Life.
See the difference? One woman had a real place in my life and the other didn’t.
Does your LO have a real place in your life?
Speedwagon – i finally made it through reading about your story. It is amazing how similar our situations are and i feel like you have lived through exactly what would happen to me if i disclosed to LO. Its a hard reality to not have your feelings reciprocated. The only difference i see is that LO hasnt done anything that i can even remotely consider as showing interest to me. Knowing that she is probably 99% not interested is painful and helpful at the same time. I also know that it shouldnt matter and i shouldnt care what she thinks. I have tried to get into a working routine that reduces the highs (and hopefully also the lows). I cancelled an in person meeting this week which i feel like is big progress (although i have one next week that is going to be tough to deal with afterwards especially since its a one on one meeting). I am both dreading and looking forward to it – such strange emotions. I feel like i am starting to have longer time periods between thinking of LO (still quite frequent but reducing). Yes – seeing her date someone would be tough (but thinking positively it may also help reduce my limerence). Thanks for sharing your story in such detail – it has really helped me. I am so interested i what happens next for you.
I see the impact of discosing to LO and how it has relieved some of the burden – i want to feel that weight of holding onto such a secret lifted but the likely rejection is stopping me along with my rational brain that keeps telling me what a bad idea it is.
Lovisa – i am sold on not disclosing to SO. She sees i am doing a bit better. It has also been fascinating to read your experience. Thank you!
Limerent Emeritus – your question on what place LO will have in my life – my limerent brain wants her to have a big place but my rational brain knows that is a mistake and as amazing as she is, i need to make peace with being her boss and at best a friend.
The next few weeks are going to have numerous interactions and i hope i can make the right decisions and get through it (with not too many depressing lows).
Thanks for the update, Vee.
Here is something I tell myself when I am struggling. Do the right thing no matter how you feel.
You got this!
Vee, I’m glad you took the time to read my roller coaster ride with LO. It has been such a learning experience navigating this. I still have to be very diligent with LO because it is easy for me to over do it and spend too much one on one time with her, which for some reason she is very receptive to right now. Last week I over did it a little too much and felt myself slipping into more high/low emotions. I need to back off a bit next week. It all feels like balancing on a seesaw with her.
I never intended to disclose to her, but in our small office things got messy and I needed to control the narrative. I don’t view my LO as innocent in all this, but I never ever cast blame on her. I’m glad she seems to be past it…I think!?!
Check in and let us know how it’s going. I think it will take some time for you to figure out what works with her…what level of interaction keeps you most stable.
And one last thought. One thing that helps me when interacting with my LO is knowing that as her boss/employer I provide her a feeling of encouragement and appreciation with leads to better sense of purpose and value. I try to set my issues aside and focus on her betterment. I am guessing your LO views you as a mentor as well and you have the ability to shape her self value as well. This is why I can never act cold to her.
Speedwagon – you are spot on. She views me as a mentor and has huge respect for me. She is a great employee and i definitely have (and will continue to) played a major part in her career. Acting cold is not an option and would not be authentic (i would be living a lie). I enjoy telling her how amazing an employee she is and she appreciates hearing it.
I have been working on a few guidelines for myself 1) stay away from asking about personal issues or emotional issues 2) treat and talk to her the same as i would other employees (ask myself would i say those same words to another employee) 3) reduce unnecessary in person contact and 4) no checking work mails on the weekend or afterhours
Lets see how this goes.
Wow I’m glad I found this site and in particular this discussion – it explains so well what I’ve been feeling the past few months. I’m a happily married 40 something year old guy with a great wife and 3 kids, a rewarding and interesting career and several hobbies/activities I enjoy a lot. LO is a coworker. She does not directly report to me, but I’m in a significantly more powerful position within our workplace. The nature of our work together includes frequent email communication and rarely requires in-person contact. We work in different offices on the same building. She’s a couple years younger than me and also has 3 kids.
We’ve worked together for 5 years now. She was always someone I noticed – she’s the kind of person who just makes you feel good when she’s around. Physically attractive for sure, but more than that she just exudes a kind of energy that always left me feeling good for hours after any 5 minute interaction with her. I was definitely attracted to her from the start, and I always kind of wondered if she was a bit attracted to me as well. But for years that was all there was to it – I was married, she was married, we saw each other like once a week, and she remained a pleasant but minor part of my life.
About 6 months ago, I started wondering if she was trying to get closer to me – she started coming around to see me in person more often, always with some work-related thing that could have been handled by email, but she’d come to my office with it and then we’d sit and chat for a few minutes – nothing too deep or personal, just friendly banter. Then one day she disclosed to me that she recently gotten divorced because of her husband’s infidelity. We talked for a long time, she cried and shared a lot, I listened and showed support. She started coming to see me more often and our talks lengthened and deepened.
Then in November she started texting me – just little things like “I saw this funny thing online and thought you’d like it”. But it showed that she was thinking about me and that felt
good. I’d text back. Then we started texting outside of work hours. Things escalated quickly then -within a few weeks, we were texting from the time we woke up until we went to bed at night. Nothing sexual or overtly romantic, just wanting to know each other better, mixed with innocent displays of affection. She also continued to come by my office frequently for chats. I was thinking about her constantly. I hid all this from my wife.
Then a few days before Christmas I disclosed. If I’d found this site earlier I wouldn’t have, but at that time I just felt compelled to tell her how I felt. I disclosed during a phone call – she told me that she had the same feelings for me, that she’d had a crush on me for 5 years, described in detail the first time we met. It felt wonderful! And then moments letter we both realized “oh f@&$ what have we done”? Because of course I’m married, so now that we’d disclosed we couldn’t keep pretending it was just a friendship, and neither one of us had any desire to be involved in an actual affair. So we agreed to stop texting and limit our contact. I went from elation to crushing despair in the span of minutes.
Within a week, we’d blown past all our self-imposed limits and were in a full blown EA. Texting constantly, expressing feelings openly, meeting daily alone in my office, sexual tension so incredibly high that things came so close to turning physical many times, but we always restrained ourselves. We “broke up”, felt crushed, resumed contact. Repeated this cycle several times. Had crazy phone conversations about if I’d be willing to leave my wife for her (I was not) or if she’d be willing to be “the other woman” for me (she was not, largely due to having been cheated on herself and knowing how crushing that felt).
She stopped coming to see me in person – said she couldn’t be sure she could control herself. For the past month, we’ve been having a weird long-distance relationship where we text (only during work hours so my wife won’t see a text) and talk on the phone but never see each other even though we work in the same building. Our hope is that eventually the “new relationship energy” will fade. So far it hasn’t – every time we talk, the energy and connection is still crazy good. We both feel like we could talk for days on end and never get tired of each other. I still think about her constantly, and feel elation when we talk and especially if she expresses feelings for me, and feel anxiety and despair when we’re out of contact for any period of time. I have still not disclosed to my wife, but we did start couples counseling on the pretext of working on some other legitimate issues in our marriage, and I’m also arranging to start seeing a therapist on my own.
Anyway, thanks to anyone who made it this far, I know this was a long post. I’ll likely start posting more on here in the weeks to come, and I’ll definitely be reading and learning from all of you.
Oh that is a tough situation, Lost in Space. It will be interesting to see how your story unfolds. I feel sympathy for all three of you: you, SO and LO. Zoinks, that is a tough one. I bet you feel alive and awakened. Have you experienced limerence benefits like weight loss yet?
Let me introduce myself. I play with fire. I am currently limerent for my LO3 who I transferred to from my LO2 almost a year ago. I maintain contact with both of them. Sometimes I think limerence is a dark art. There are so many benefits, but the risks are huge! I haven’t cheated on my SO and I am confident that I won’t. I use the sexual energy to keep my libido high, which my SO enjoys. Ironically, my marriage has never been better. But I’m warning you that it’s a juggling act. Proceed with caution.
Do me a favor and tell me what boundaries you won’t cross. It will increase your awareness and, if you get close to crossing one of them, you will hit the brakes faster if you’ve already made up your mind.
Good luck and welcome to the club!
Hi Lovisa, good to meet you!
To answer your questions:
1) I feel alive and awakened when I’m in contact with LO. I feel anxious to the point of mild panic attacks when we haven’t had contact in a couple of days (we agreed to only be in contact during work hours/days to avoid being discovered). I’ve felt incredibly depressed the handful of times we tried cutting contact completely (I know she feels the same – we made eye contact in passing during a no contact period and the sadness in her eyes was so deep I’ll never forget it)
2) Benefits – I was already really physically fit so no weight loss benefit. I’ve actually seen significant improvements in my marriage, including better sex life with SO and us being more affectionate and communicating better
3) Boundaries – I won’t hurt my wife and I won’t blow up my kids’ lives. This means being really discrete and cautious with the EA even if it means not having nearly as much contact as I’d like, and avoiding sex completely – partly because I believe letting it become a PA would eventually lead to a high chance of getting found out, and partly because my feelings for LO are already so strong, I suspect that if we started having sex, my feelings would intensify so much that
I might actually do something crazy like leave SO for her
I recently proposed to LO that we agree to continue indefinitely in a discreet emotional affair that could partially satisfy our longing for each other and provide some of those other benefits for both of us. She wants to, but is also bothered by the general wrongness of it, and also feels that she could never really be satisfied with anything less than all of me, and she knows that can’t happen – so part of her wants to continue as we are, and part of her wants to make the relationship fade because it’s too painful at times. So it’s still kind of up in the air, although we just had an amazing long conversation on Friday afternoon that’s left me energized all weekend and frankly I’m hoping for more of the same this coming week
Hi LIS, thanks for sharing your story. You are is a very tough position and quite honestly it feels like a powder keg ready to explode. I am rather amazed the PA has not happened yet, and good for you both on setting boundaries but how long do you think you can actually coexist like this? I know for myself, I am so attracted to my LO I don’t know if I could stop myself from sexual contact with her, I like to think I could, but I honestly don’t think I could if she pursued me at all.
It feels like you have to make a purposeful choice for your marriage and that requires removing LO from your life completely. Full no contact. Is that possible in your company? Can she transfer to another department that does not require your contact with her? Can you?
Your story is a good lesson for me for what it would be like if my work LO actually reciprocated strong romantic desire and attraction for me. I disclosed to her also after a lot of uncertain feelings and her cues of attraction but she maintains she only feels friendship. But she still behaves very warm and receptive in my interactions with her. We are also both married. Does not sound like reciprocal attraction is the relief I would hope it to be.
Hang in there and let us know how this proceeds. This site and all the blogs and peoples limerent stories are filled with amazing wisdom.
Hi Speedwagon! Thanks for the thoughts – I was hoping to hear from you since your story sounded similar to mine in a lot of ways.
Reciprocity definitely did not provide relief! It certainly did provide some moments of euphoria, but also has lead to extreme frustration and further intensification of the LE.
The one surprising benefit of LO reciprocating was that it has drastically improved my sex life with SO. My wife has a relatively low libido (due in part to depression and meds) and for a long time she had been rejecting most of my sexual advances. This lead to me feeling sexually unattractive and I had largely stopped even trying to initiate sex with SO. Having this extremely attractive woman at work tell me that she could barely keep her hands off me was certainly a much needed boost for my self image, and apparently I took that confidence and energy home in a way that SO noticed – our sex life has done a complete 180 in the past few months.
I can think of 3 main reasons why it hasn’t progressed to a PA:
1) I really do love my wife deeply, and the thought of losing her and causing that sort of emotional devastation to her really does put a brake on my actions. Of course, she’d also be devastated if she knew about the EA, but it’s a lot more practical to keep that hidden
2) LO really is a good person with a good moral compass, and she’s also experienced firsthand the pain of being betrayed by her husband, and she absolutely doesn’t want to do that to my wife. She actually feels really bad about her role in this whole thing – she says (and I believe her) that she never wanted it to go this far and was just hoping to get closer to me in a friendly way (despite knowing that she was attracted to me) and that she never thought I’d return her feelings
3) As much as I am sexually attracted to LO, my primary attraction is emotional. I love talking with her more that anything in this life. We can talk for hours and never feel like it’s enough time. She has told me multiple times that if we ever did have sex, she thinks she would feel so terrible about herself that she could never bring herself to speak to me again. I don’t know if that would actually be true, but I haven’t wanted to risk it. If you gave me a choice between making love to her once but then never talking to her again, vs never touching her or even seeing her face but getting to talk on the phone for a couple hours a week for the next year, I’d choose the latter in a heartbeat.
Finally, NC is not an option. There’s nowhere for either of us to transfer to. She MIGHT be leaving in a few months to go back to school. The thought of that breaks my heart into pieces but I also know it would be the best thing that could happen. We could certainly limit our contact more than we are now, but honestly I’m not ready for that. We’ve tried a couple of times, and the depression was so profound I couldn’t function at work or at home.
So for now, we’re doing this weird relationship where we work 200 yards from each other but haven’t actually seen each other except passing in the hall for over a month, but we text and talk on the phone a couple hours a week. In the meantime, I’m working on strengthening my relationship with my SO, working with a psychologist on my own issues, and trying to get more into some of my other hobbies so that eventually if/when we do end contact, I’ll have a good base of other things to replace her with, so that I don’t end up transferring all of that energy to something more destructive (like a new LO with less of a moral compass, or a loss of my 15 year sobriety from alcohol)
That’s the plan anyway – does it sound reasonable or am I totally deluding myself?
“ She has told me multiple times that if we ever did have sex, she thinks she would feel so terrible about herself that she could never bring herself to speak to me again. I don’t know if that would actually be true, but I haven’t wanted to risk it.”
It’s true! I promise it’s true! If you cross the line, she will drop you! The guilt would be unbearable. The alternative is that she becomes the type of woman who crosses that line. Which is worse?
I like your plan for now. AND Don’t touch her. You can’t handle physical contact and neither can she. Don’t cross the line, you will hurt her. Let that motivate you to keep this thing under control.
Awesome that this is helping your sex life with SO! Cheers to that! Btw, I don’t drink alcohol either. I have chocolate milk in my pretend cup.
Also, how did you revive sex at home? I have two male friends who need help with reviving a wife’s low libido. We have some commenters with this problem, too.
Wow LIS, your story is how I imagined mine would turn out with my LO, minus the turmoil of mutual attraction. What a reality check for me! There was a time when LO and I were texting pretty heavy and I remember thinking this is it, this is the start of something and being so excited. But then she went cold and I had never felt so down. That was the start of my disclosure progression.
I do understand the emotional connection, I am the same way to an extent. I crave my LOs attention and affection emotionally. But, my LO is not a great conversationalist, it takes effort on my part to get her talking, and many times her lack of personal initiation with me in conversation really frustrates me. Texting with her was maddening because she texted in thought fragments like a teenage girl might. It all made me come to realize that my limerence for her is as sexual as it is emotional. Right now she is acting very warm and receptive to my interactions with her. It’s starting to cause me some distress again, and even though she claims her feelings for me are only friendship I still feel an affection for me that she exudes. But I am also pretty sure she is a non limerent, she told me during disclosure that she didn’t have feelings because ‘it wasn’t reality’. I think the reality of the situation of us both being married played into her non attraction where as I fell into attraction fantasy land over her, reality be damned.
As for my SO, I too gained greater libido and general affection for my wife over this. The sexual energy had to go somewhere and we have had regular routine ‘date night’s’. I also have found a greater affection for her, just doing things like hugging and kissing her more often and we cuddle in bed more now. She has said on a few occasions she wants to know what got into me this last year. I intend for her never to know.
I also lost nearly 40 lbs working out. More energy needing to be displaced and a general need to counteract depression got me exercising and living healthier. The lump positive of LE has been great, other than the turmoil of the crazy emotions. I am now practicing stability which requires controlled interactions with LO and absolutely no off work hour interactions. We do not text anymore, one of the fallouts of my disclosure and a good one I suppose. My hardest days are weekends when I know I can’t see or talk with her.
The New Years Purpose blog is a crazy and fascinating comments section where we all seem to check in with each other. You should read through it.
Looking forward to hearing more from you!!!
To echo Speedy about the New Year’s blog, you should join us there, too. I refer to it as “my support group” when talking to my SO, LO2 and his friend.
Speedwagon, I am concerned that you would cheat if the right girl tempted you. I suspect you’d like to live your whole life as a faithful husband when you are thinking straight, but your shadow tells you to cheat. Let’s work on that. How can I help pull you to the light? I love your honesty, by the way. I know I wouldn’t give into that temptation and I recognize that the pull might not be as intense for me, though I doubt it. I’ve had opportunities. Tempting opportunities and I wouldn’t give in. But, I have the benefit of having lost a parent at the age of 4 because a woman seduced my dad on purpose. I lived through the aftermath and I will never repeat that tragedy. How can we sharpen your commitment to your vows?
Lovisa…you bring up a topic I have thought about a lot lately…what am I actually seeking or capable of. Would I follow through on a PA if given the chance. I did not ever think about this prior to my LE. I always saw myself as a faithful husband but my LE has caused me a lot of turmoil in this area.
First, in my 22 years of marriage I have never had the opportunity to cheat. But I have always had crushes on other women while married that truth be told, I fantasized about having sex with them often. But they always stayed fantasies, and I always believed this to be normal male desire.
LO is the first woman I have ever pursued relationally outside my marriage. In my heart of hearts I wanted to have a PA with her. She captivates me that much. Would I follow through on it if she had reciprocated…I’m not sure. I’m not sure I could have handled the outright disrespect and breach of trust to my wife and marriage. I think I would have been more like LIS on this. Maybe if LO and I were completely on the same page with things I would.
What I do suffer from to a certain extent is a desire of attention and affection from other women. I have always had close female relationships and I like female affection beyond that which my wife provides. Maybe this is tied to a sexual longing as well. I have thought about whether I am a monogamous person at my core. I’m not sure. I think I am out of marital respect but not out of personal sexual desire.
I don’t know, this is a whole new area of my being that I feel like I am just discovering. I will admit though, I do struggle a bit with sex with my wife. She is very modest and though we have sex with regular frequency I have always felt like it is something she tolerates more than desires. Sex with her is very routine and any effort to try something new is always awkward and met with mostly displeasure. It has taken a toll on me over the years. In my 20s I had sex with 2 other girlfriends where it was very passion filled and free. I tend to miss that with my wife as it was and is never quite that way with her. But it’s not horrible either. I do find my wife attractive and I do enjoy having sex with her.
But LO…she just seems to have a sexual hold over me right now that my wife cannot compete with.
“She was always someone I noticed – she’s the kind of person who just makes you feel good when she’s around. Physically attractive for sure, but more than that she just exudes a kind of energy that always left me feeling good for hours after any 5 minute interaction with her.”
This statement reminds me exactly of why LO is so addictive. As I said in another post “I don’t know how God packed so much sunshine into one woman that could make her shine so much”
She was always a pleasure to be around. Genuinely kind and caring as well as nice and sweet. Quite easy to get addicted to the company of a person like that, man or woman.
She also was a co-worker. Similar to you she worked in another office completely so most of my interactions with her were either email or phone. I never had personal correspondences with her as I only could reach by the office line. Which was probably the saving grace that it only got as far as it did. She was also much younger than me, and when we first worked together in person for four months she was single. She’s since met a young man that she has been with that’s good to her and her two daughters after a really bad divorce.
I am very thankful if there were any feelings on her side she did much better hiding them than I did as apparently the rest of the people in the office could tell I favored her. June 3 of last year was her last day at the office. I have only heard from her one time since, and that was her picking up the phone at the office when I was on hold, when she was visiting her former co-workers. And that put me on a high for about a month. Otherwise I have had no contact with her.
The people here are very helpful as you can see. I have only been here about a month and the amount of help I have gotten is immeasurable. And I see you have already met Miss Lovisa. I brag on her every chance I get because she is always here for everyone and always has a listening ear. She has helped talk me out of a lot of bad feelings and I thank her for that.
Adam,
Yeah…
Every once in awhile, you can find yourself in a situation where you can look a woman in the eye, smile, and say, “You have more going for you than any one woman should be allowed to have.”
You’re not in that position.
Lovisa,
“It’s true! I promise it’s true! If you cross the line, she will drop you! The guilt would be unbearable. The alternative is that she becomes the type of woman who crosses that line. Which is worse?”
Thank you so much – this is exactly what I need to hear and to focus on. To my shame, I am more motivated at this time by feelings for my LO than for my SO, but I suppose that’s what unites all of us in these situations – so why not use my feelings for LO in a positive manner? She has told me that she’s suffered from severe depression in the past, to the point of contemplating suicide a few years back. While she’s doing much better now, I fear that if she did something so contrary to the core of who she actually believes herself to be, it could send her back into that state. I couldn’t stand to be responsible for that!
“Also, how did you revive sex at home? I have two male friends who need help with reviving a wife’s low libido. We have some commenters with this problem, too.”
I didn’t really do anything different – the same looks, the same touches, the same kisses that used to work in the past and had mostly stopped working in the last few years… well, they started working again. I think it was about confidence – there’s a big difference between initiating sex while expecting to be rejected, and initiating while feeling full of confidence and expecting success. LO’s feelings for me, which include both love and lust, definitely raised my confidence level a lot, and I can only imagine that SO sensed the difference and responded accordingly!
Speedwagon – Disclosing and learning of mutual feelings has led to a entirely different kind of hell than the limerent experiences I’ve had in the past. Like you, I’ve always craved affection and multiple connection with women more than my wife can/will provide, and I’ve had at least 3 other LEs over the years, although none nearly so intense as this one and none that involved disclosure or reciprocity. So I’ve been accustomed to the torment of unrequited feelings, “does she or doesn’t she”, overanalyzing every text message… and that’s definitely a torment of it’s own. But this time has definitely been the hardest for me. First, because now I know there’s basically nothing standing between me and her except our own consciences and fear of hurting others – that’s a really challenging place to be. Second, I’ve let myself get so very close to her and develop such a strong bond with her. While my previous LEs were based mostly on a mix of attraction and lust, this one is based on actually getting to know her pretty deeply and feeling what really feels like true love. Our emotional connection is like nothing I’ve ever experienced with anyone, and it’s the same for her – we’re actually both introverts who normally don’t open up to other people much at all, and suddenly we’re both spending hours on end talking, seemingly desperate to learn everything about the other and tell each other everything about ourselves. We have not yet had a conversation end because we ran out of things to say – our talks only end because we run out of time due to the constraints on when we can communicate. It really has me feeling things like that she could be my true soulmate or twin flame or whatever, even though I know it’s probably just tricks of the brain and NRE that would eventually die out if we were really together and stuck in the mundane realities of raising kids, paying bills, cleaning the house and all that. That’s what I keep telling myself anyway, along with a constant commitment to not hurting my wife who I really do love and have always looked forward to spending my lifetime with.
I want to get into this more in depth with both of you, but I am pressed for time. I need to get ready for church and we’re hiking to a frozen waterfall afterwards so I need to pack my gear. I couldn’t resist addressing the twin flame issue… that isn’t real. It can’t be be because I would have too many soulmates. My LEs are always mutual. I can’t be a twin flame to 4 men ( including my SO who was also an LO). I don’t know why they always reciprocate. I have been pondering the 1 to 10 scale. Maybe I am an 8 and am attracted to 7s. Maybe they are married to 6s. I don’t know. I can’t figure out why this happens, but it isn’t supernatural. It isn’t destiny. It is just a chemical reaction.
Also, fantasies seem to be a theme for all three of us. Much to my surprise, my SO doesn’t fantasize about other women. I always assumed he did. I thought everyone did. Nope, some people don’t.
LIS, thanks for sharing. It’s sounds like a very difficult place to be in with you and LO. It still blows my mind because what happened with you is what I wanted, full reciprocation and EA, and now you have brought to light the struggle and crushing blow of that reality.
I did a lot of thinking about my LO this weekend and why I am limerent for her and it really seems more sexual in nature than anything else. There are other things I like about her, we have a lot of ordinary things in common, we bantor well, but at a deeper relational level she is difficult to get to know. She can be quite aloof and other people in our office have said she is hard to read and figure out. I think I agree.
Every now and again I like to make a list of how to keep moving forward in my actions with LO to tamper limerence. I did that again today and one of the items on my list is to lean into a couple other female friendships in the office a bit more because I find them more satisfying on a friendship level than my LO. These woman are just more mature in their relational sensibilities than my LO and tend to reciprocate better.
Speedwagon – based on everything I’ve read about limerance and everything I’ve experienced personally, I’d say one of the main things to keep in mind is that “it’s never going to be enough”. If you get reciprocity, you’ll want a full EA. If you have an EA, you’ll want a PA. If you have a PA, you’ll get frustrated because you still only get to be with LO part time and then you might end up doing something crazy like actually leaving SO to set up house with LO. Maybe it’s different for different people, but that’s how I’ve seen myself going anyway.
The other problem is the ongoing insecurity and anxiety about “will it last?” My EA has been filled with anxious thoughts about her coming to her senses and cutting it off, which I think she will do at some point – in part because she feels morally conflicted, and in part because she wants so much more with me that it’s painful to settle for what we actually have. Every Monday when we get back in contact I’m filled with fear that she will have had a change of heart over the weekend.
My limerant brain wants to be with LO completely and forever, and anything less than that (ie anything compatible with reality) is never going to satisfy. It’s like an addict thinking they could do “just enough heroin”.
So I guess the choices are either cut it off completely or find some balance between what you want and what you can actually have and then resign yourself to living in a perpetual state of discomfort.
Man, you are hitting me with some great perspective. I have felt the never enough feeling. When LO and I started texting frequently, one day of not texting sent me into a tail spin. I was also frustrated she would not match my affection level in her texts. Also, at the office in dread the ho hum days of interaction, I want our interactions to always be deep and meaningful, but reality is they all are not.
I have for the most part got to the place now where I am resigned and OK with the warm in office interactions we have and being just an awesome boss to her. I do actually have a couple great roles in her life, she sees me as a mentor and male role model. She respects me (I think still after disclosure) and appreciates me. She is married to a difficult guy and I am the next important man in her life ( her father died a few years back). These are roles I want to respect and take seriously with her and not let my limerence get in the way like it did over Christmas time when it all escalated and I disclosed.
Btw…I would consider myself a 7 in the looks department but a 9 in the successful and interesting man department. My wife is a 8, maybe 9 for her age, and is loved by everyone.
Speedwagon, I had a feeling that you couldn’t handle mutual limerence like the situation with Lost in Space. I really want to address this until you are confident that you wouldn’t cheat on your wife. I think this LE is just the beginning and you will have other opportunities. I want you to be prepared. It’s important to me for some reason. Maybe I am too invested in your story, I don’t know. I care. I don’t want to see you blow up your life. But, if you do, I’ll still care and want want to help if I can.
How do we get you on our side? It sounds like Lost in Space isn’t willing to blow up any marriages either.
Thanks for pondering your commitment to your marriage out loud on this site. I appreciate the effort you are making. I read it this morning, but didn’t have time to respond. I will read it again.
Lovisa, I appreciate your concern and interest in my story. It means a lot knowing you care. I have no interest in hurting my wife or blowing up my marriage. I will commit to you that I will not cross a physical boundary with with any woman that is not my wife. I don’t want to be that guy. I don’t have any pattern of physical contact with LO and I intend to keep it that way.
Thank you for your directness with me in this.
Thanks Speedwagon!
Lovisa – thanks again for telling me what I need to hear. My rational brain knows it’s not destiny or fate or something, it’s my brain being flooded with oxytocin and dopamine every time I have contact with LO. And it feels incredible during those moments, but obviously it’s nothing to go making life-altering decisions over.
My SO also does not have fantasies about other people. She told me that once we got married, she just completely stopped thinking that way. I find that incredibly strange but it seems to be true for her. She certainly notices an attractive man and might feel attraction in that moment, but there’s no ongoing fantasy life in her mind.
I think about the 1-10 scale as well. When we met, I’d say SO was an 8 and I was a 7. Twenty years later, I’m probably an 8.5 (for my age) thanks to hobbies like weightlifting, MMA and triathlons, and she’s probably a 5 or 6 due to years of a sedentary lifestyle and 50lbs of weight gain. All of my LOs have probably been equally or slightly more attractive than me, so physical/sexual attractiveness certainly plays a big role even if my primary attachments end up being emotional rather than sexual. I’ve never had an emotional affair with a physically unattractive woman.
I’m really curious about how you maintain contact with 2 LOs in addition to your SO. How does it work? Ie frequency of contact, method of contact, etc? Does your SO know/care? Does it satisfy your needs or leave you in a state of perpetual frustration from wanting more closeness than you can have with them?
Thanks!
Wow, Lost in Space, I don’t know where to begin…
If I am being honest, I am a 10. That’s uncomfortable to admit. I am not a 10 among 10s, probably a 5. My SO gained more than 100 lbs since we married and I am 3-7 pounds heavier than my wedding day weight (I was anorexic back then). I am thin and curvy in all the right places. I am very fit and still feminine. Running is my dope. I love endurance runs! Trail running is my favorite! My SO and I look like a mismatch, but we’re not. He is incredible and I couldn’t be more in love with him. My limerence isn’t about him. I think it stems from my absent dad. I was very close to my grandfather and I think my SO plays that part now. I think my LOs represent my unavailable dad. Idk. I’m still trying to figure this out. They might be my brothers or male friends. I have always preferred male companionship and I have a lot of brothers: 5-ish. I really haven’t figured this out. Oh, but I have other male friends who I have never felt a glimmer for. That might be relevant.
My SO puts up with less-than-perfection from me because I think he genuinely loves me and wants me to be happy. I feel the same way towards him. I really struggle to make friends with women, but I am working on it. We have an agreement that I can have male friends and we have specific boundaries surrounding those friendships. For example, I wanted to go kayaking with one of my male friends last summer. I told my friend that I’m not allowed to be alone with a male friend if I am wearing a swimsuit so either my kids had to join us or his kids had to tag along. His were with their mom for the weekend so my whole family came, including my SO. I made a yummy picnic. We had a lot of fun. My friend said that he admires my husband and that I married well.
How do I maintain contact with my LOs? Mostly text. (Sorry Speedy). I go to lunch with LO2 and his friend sometimes. I talk to LO2, his friend or LO3 on the phone occasionally. Also, I am on a social media site where I have one contact: LO3. It’s a place to post your training. I’d rather not say which site, sorry. Anyway, I hear from LO3 multiple times almost every day on that site. I text with LO2 and his friend in a group text usually, but I text both of them alone sometimes, too. Initiation comes from any of us. My SO knows and even asks how they are doing. For example, LO3 shares a name with my brother, so when I say, “LO3 blah blah blah.” My husband asks, “Your friend or your brother?” My husband respects my male friends and they seem to respect him, too. Sometimes my husband feels insecure or jealous and we talk about it. I am always willing to walk away from any relationship that makes my husband uncomfortable, but he insists that he trusts me and doesn’t want me to cut any of my friends loose.
Pretty crazy huh?
Cool that you do triathlons. My knee is recovering from a marathon and I am almost desperate enough to switch from running to cycling or swimming to let my knee heal. Which part is your favorite? I don’t want to give my identity away, but I live near a world-class triathlon champion. Please don’t ask me to identify him because that will reveal too much about myself. I recently learned that he hates running, lol! That’s hilarious! He loves the competition, loves the swimming and cycling, but hates running. So funny! It makes me laugh when I hear about endurance runners who hate running. I did a 50k with a friend who hates running and it was his idea to do that run. The irony is so funny.
And another thing, the fact that you and LO are “good people” who wouldn’t wreck any homes, can actually make the situation harder. Both of you might feel safer letting your guard down. If you both have your guard down at the same time, you might make a big mistake. I hope that doesn’t happen because I believe both of you try to do better than that.
Good luck, Lost in Space! It’s so nice getting to know you.
Lovisa – I’m a lifelong runner who recently started doing triathlons because of bad knees as well – it’s nice because you can still spend the same total amount of time doing the event, but the running part is much shorter. I’ve spent most of the last 20 years bike commuting to work so the bike part was pretty easy, but swimming is freaking hard, especially in open water which is completely different than pool swimming. Probably because of the challenge it’s also my favorite part though.
Interestingly I went for a swim this afternoon with a close female friend that I train with a lot. She’s not unattractive by any means, but there’s never been a hint of a glimmer and our friendship truly is just friendship. I should probably spend more time thinking about what’s different between her and my current and past LOs.
That’s cool that your SO is so tolerant and understanding. Mine definitely could not be – she only knows about one prior LO (an inappropriately close friendship with a very attractive woman, essentially a one-side EA without disclosure or reciprocity) and even that almost ended our marriage.
One thing I couldn’t figure out from your reply – do you feel satisfied in your current relationships with your LOs? Or are you always left yearning for more, more, more?
Sorry, my head is spinning so it’s hard to focus on your question. I just disclosed to SO. I posted it on the New Years thread.
I want closeness from the current LO. I can be quite content too, though. I feel secure in my connection with LO3 because he is so responsive. We aren’t engaged in any hot and cold behavior. I never have to question his feelings for me because I already know the answer. He has big feelings for me and he doesn’t want to hurt anyone so he won’t act on his feelings.
I hope that answers the question. I did the limerence dance with LO1 for 17 years. It’s exhausting. Your story has a similar feel.
I would love to talk more about your training. I am just so overwhelmed right now that it’s hard to think. Here’s my thing, cycling for more than 20 miles hurts my butt and I never feel like I get as good of a workout as when I run. Also, I am a bad swimmer.
Your training friend has good boundaries. That’s my guess anyway.
Oh, and yes I want more. I have that feeling of never enough, yes. I decided to accept that feeling because I won’t pursue more and if anyone pursued it with me, I would decline.
hi LIS,
It is a sad and sobering realization that more is never enough. My own situation is so much behind yours, Speedwagon and Lovisa.
I havent disclosed and currently dont have reciprication or even an EA. I crave getting to know LO better, but i keep questioning to what end as if i fast forward the “best” outcome would end up where you or Speedwagon are now. I also keep thinking even if things did pan out, when the limerence ends what happens then? It would mean making life changing decisions that i think i would regret.
Do you find the pain you are in now worse than when you didnt know how she felt? I keep thinking that putting more boundries in the way is helpful, but in may ways i also need LOs support and want to be there for her (not just as my employee but as a friend).
Vee…for me the burden of the secret and uncertainty I felt lifted after disclosure. I’m not going to lie, it is a relief, especially since LO is still very warm in her interactions with me. If she distanced herself from me or got creeped out I would not feel the same. I would regret the disclosure and probably feel worse.
The pain of desire and intrusive thoughts for a woman I cannot realize a full romantic relationship with remains and I think that will stay for a good long while. That is the pain I manage every day and just hope that at some point it starts to fade.
Speedwagon I really hope the pain reduces for you. At least you have clarity and knowledge that it is not going to happen – whilst that is painful you can start moving forward. Like you, i have to constantly interact with LO. This week interactions were high and they are only going to increase for me over the next few weeks due to work deadlines. While i know that these are not healthy and they are keeping the limerence going instead of fading, i genuinely look forward to the interactions and feel guilty about that – i dont want to crave these interactions. I like how you have got into a certain routine on interactions to reduce the highs and lows. Right now i am i the thick of the highs and lows.
Hey Vee! The pain has been better this week. Same amount of interactions at the office but my evenings have been a little better. But tomorrow evening I meet her SO for the first time and that is making me anxious a bit. I think she is anxious about it too. Should be OK though, it is in a group setting and I can keep a distance.
I would say it took a good 6 months or so before my in office interactions with LO stopped being such a trigger. In the early days, when LO and I were starting to connect more personally at the office, I would feel so good, then the crash would come early evening and stay with me until went to sleep. I remember so many nights getting in bed feeling so deflated and down. But then I would wake up next morning feeling OK just to do it all over again.
Now, our interactions are still the same but I am used to them and they don’t trigger depressive emotions in me later. In those first six months I broke down and cried in the evenings about every other week, now I have not cried for a good few months. That’s progress.
The key is just to keep things in routine. If I were you I would not shy away from these meetings, because then when you do have meetings, the meetings become more of a reward. Maybe try to normalize them so they become more of a common event in your day. Just stay away from heavy personal talk which can be a bonding mechanism. My LO and I still have superficial personal chit chat quite a bit but I do not talk about heavy subjects with her. It helps that she is poor at conversation though.
I would say that since I disclosed she has become warmer to me in our interactions. I think she does have a good bit of affection for me and likes my attention but she is not limerent like I am. She seems quite in control of herself.
Hi Vee! Nice to meet you!
I like what you said about fast forwarding- in substance use recovery we talk a lot about “playing the tape forward” by pausing to think about the long term outcomes of choices we make today. Let’s say I let myself drift from my EA to a full PA. Then eventually we get found out or the feelings grow so strong that we blow everything up and start an actual life together. What then? Eventually the limerence fades, LO becomes SO2, and it’s just a matter of time before the next LO comes around. So you end up right back where you started, except maybe now with alimony, child support, a trail of broken hearts and a mountain of guilt.
During a phone conversation last month, LO told me something like “I need to stop pretending we have a future together. You’re not going to leave your wife for me. And if you did, you wouldn’t be the kind of man I’d actually want to be with. And if we did end up together, I’d always be worried about you leaving me for someone else, because I’d know you were the type of man who could do that.”
Is the pain worse after disclosure and EA? Yes! Far worse than anything I’d ever experienced in my prior undisclosed LEs. Imagine a 40 year old man, with 15 years of relatively happy marriage, 3 beautiful kids, a rewarding career, good friends, fulfilling hobbies. A respected professional, successful, head of a major department. Imagine that man sitting in his office alone, literally sobbing, whole body shaking, because the woman in the office down the hall said we needed to take a 2 week break because the feelings had gotten too strong. Imagine him spending the next week having horrible muscle aches, heart palpitations, nausea, shortness of breath hitting him in waves every time he thought about her. Until we both broke down and re-established contact a week later (although we still haven’t been alone in person)
The emotions just got so intense. We spent hours talking about such personal and deep topics, got to know each other so well – she was no longer a fantasy object but a real woman with whom I’d fallen madly in love. And so the thought of losing her just absolutely destroyed me, even though I knew that being with her was so wrong and so dangerous to everything and everyone else in my life.
I heard a rap song the other day that had this spoken word outro that went something like this: “You shouldn’t do drugs harder than you are. If you’re a soft ass mothaf@&$er, don’t do hard drugs, because they’ll kick your ass.” I learned through this experience that when it comes to experiences like this, I’m a soft-ass MF and I need to stay away from the hard stuff because it’s just too much for me.
That said, it’ll be interesting to see how I feel about this 6 months or 6 years from now, assuming I do make it through unscathed. Will it still be a source of pain? Or will it be something I look back at and remember fondly once some time has passed? I asked LO once (while we were both feeling heartbroken) if she wished she could go back in time and prevent this all from happening. She immediately said “absolutely not!” That the heartache would eventually fade but she’ll always cherish getting to know me so well and that she wants us to always be friends. So I hope that’s how it ends up feeling in the long run, and I probably wouldn’t say I’d go back and erase this incident if I could, but I certainly will do everything possible to prevent myself from having a similar experience anytime in the future because I have no desire to go through this ever again. And hopefully my story can serve as a warning to other married people who are thinking about disclosing. I can’t tell anyone else what’s right for them, but I would definitely advise them to think long and hard first.
Vee – another thing about disclosure is that it can be incredibly dangerous if you’re married and don’t actually want to end up in a PA and/or end your marriage. Because now the situation is firmly out of the realm of individual fantasy and there’s another person fully involved. People are unpredictable, so really anything could happen. They could report you to HR for harassment. They could tell your SO. They could reciprocate and come after you so strongly you don’t say no and end up getting physical. You just can’t know until it’s possibly too late.
In my case… it got so freaking dangerous. I have a private office at work with no windows and a door that locks, in a pretty hidden-away area of the building. It would pretty much be the perfect place to have sex with a coworker and get away with it. Prior to disclosure, she’d find reasons to visit me in my office sometimes and we’d chat, but there was never any threat of anything happening, because as far as we both knew, the other one didn’t have any feelings beyond friendship. After disclosure, that totally changed.
We decided to cut contact right after disclosure, but that only lasted a few days and then we were back at it, texting all the time and her coming to my office daily. But now the energy and dynamic was totally different, because I knew she wanted me and she knew I wanted her. The sexual tension was crazy. Our hugs got longer and tighter, our looks got hungrier, she’d find reasons to touch my leg or my chest while talking. We’d have these hypothetical “what if?” discussions that always ended with us saying how important it was not to cross the line. She’d say things like “it’s good you have so much self control because it would be horrible if something happened, but I know I couldn’t stop myself if you made a move”. Basically, we both wanted it so freaking badly, but we also both knew it was so, so wrong, and we ended up doing this crazy dance to see just how close we could get to the flame without getting burned. It was exhilarating, intoxicating, and ridiculously dangerous. Somehow we both held strong, and after a couple weeks of that we had a long phone call and texting session and agreed to stop seeing each other in person – that was a month ago and since then we’ve only had contact by phone and text.
So I seem to have survived so far (although I know I’m not totally out of danger), but if LO had been a little more aggressive and/or less concerned about hurting my wife, it likely would have turned out totally different, and right now I’d be caught up in a complicated PA that ended up destroying a lot of people’s lives (my SO, my kids, and ultimately LO and I as well). In the headspace I was in last month, I really don’t think I could have stopped anything if she’d kissed me or something, so it was just so dangerous to let myself get into that position in the first place where my entire future and life was dependent on another person
LIS,
Well done on dodging that bullet! You both know the turf you’re on.
The question becomes, can you maintain your boundaries?
I have $5 that one of you will cave and test them. If for no other reason than to see if the connection is still alive.
I can’t quite tell how attached you are to your LO. There’s definitely a relationship and from what she said about leaving your wife and being the kind of man she’d want to be with, it sounds like she’s pretty attached. She’s thinking ahead, looking at a potential future. And, she doesn’t see one, at least that’s what she said. However…
That’s flattering. But it’s really scary.
On the other hand, I know 3 people who left long term marriages to be with someone else and did quite well. My wife’s grandfather allegedly “walked out” on his wife and kids and married another woman. They were married 40 years until that woman died.
When the EAP counselor asked what I wanted from my “relationship” with LO #4, I told her that I didn’t want to attach to LO #4 and I sure as hell didn’t want LO #4 attaching to me.
The EAP counselor chuckled and said, “That ship has already sailed.”
When LO #4 said goodbye, it was like Moses had parted the Red Sea. I had a way out and I took it. That was 7 years ago.
LE – thanks for reading and for your thoughts. To answer your question, I feel extremely attached to her. Emotionally I don’t feel like I dodged a bullet or like the Red Sea is parting if our relationship ends. I feel like I miss her so bad it hurts and I’m grieving the loss of our relationship. Now the rational part of my brain, separate from my emotions, can see that I was really fortunate it didn’t go further and that she seems to be pulling away now. But my heart sure doesn’t believe it right now and all I want to do is see her and talk to her right now and I’m sitting here all distraught because I texted her 3 hours ago and she hasn’t responded, which never would have happened anytime in the past 3 months, but has been increasingly common in the past 2 weeks. I can just sense her heart has changed toward me and she’s determined to pull away.
If I was single, I would 100% want to dive into a serious relationship with her. The ONLY thing stopping me is my commitment to my SO. If I was somehow allowed to have 2 wives (now we’re getting into crazy fantasy land) I feel like I’d want to marry her too (me and LO actually joked last month about joining a polygamist cult being the solution for our problem). If LO was willing to continue a long term discrete EA indefinitely, I would definitely want that.
But even though she hasn’t come out and said it, I feel increasingly certain that our relationship is going to end, because I’m just not willing to leave my marriage for her, and she’s not willing to hang around forever as second place in my life (and I respect her a ton for that). So at this point I’m trying to resign myself to it being over and not act too desperate trying to hold onto someone who has made the decision to pull away for her own mental self- preservation.
I think she is trying to do the right thing, Lost in Space. I’m sorry this will be very hard on you.
LiS – well done on your restraint. I admire how you have not crossed the PA line and that you are doing the right thing for your SO. It must be so hard for you to be in this position.
I keeping thinking reciprication must be amazing but this has changed my perspective.
Reducing contact with LO is not an option right now for me which makes keeping these feelings to myself both difficult and frustrating. I also feel that i want no contact to improve my mental state but have no way of doing that. Each interaction (with this wonderful person who has no idea how i feel and probably has no similar feelings other than professional admiration for me as her mentor\boss) just pushes me back a few steps and makes me crave more out of our relationship.
Being able to share my ups and downs here has definitely helped and hearing from the people on here has been great. Its a tough battle to fight alone.
LIS,
“But even though she hasn’t come out and said it, I feel increasingly certain that our relationship is going to end, because I’m just not willing to leave my marriage for her, and she’s not willing to hang around forever as second place in my life (and I respect her a ton for that). ”
You should probably start thinking about how it’s going to end. It’s not something you want to leave entirely to chance.
“When trust has been breached, so has respect–and second chances can be very few and far between. Whether you’ve chosen to step away from a new relationship or a long-established one, how you orchestrate that ending is crucial, because it’s typically what someone remembers most about you.” – Shari Schreiber https://sharischreiber.com/whos-doing-your-dirty-work/
You also don’t want to hurt or piss off your LO to the point they lash out at you and take your head. Most don’t but it’s not entirely unheard of.
Hey Lost in Space, I am worried about my knee. The x-ray looks good. The doctor thinks it’s inflammation. I guess I keep reinjuring it. It is so hard not to run. I know you understand that feeling, but it’s crazy talk to most people. I can last a day or two, but then I get antsy. I want to bounce an idea off of you. Maybe this week I can focus on strength training and cycling and I might be able to hold myself back from running, hiking or walking. I can’t commit because I know myself and I will probably give in to the temptation. The other day my SO said it would be wise if I stopped running when my knee hurts. He wanted me to commit right before a run. I said, “It’s easy for me to make that promise while I’m standing in our kitchen, but I know myself and I just don’t trust that I’ll follow through.” I am a boundary pusher. My inner coach says, “Are you going to let that hold you back?” Ugh! This drive serves me well when I am in-tact, but it drives me nuts when I’m injured. What do you think about my cycling plan? Here is the strength training that I am experimenting with.
https://youtu.be/9SzlYxuOSpg
I also have a full body routine that I will do in addition to these extra exercises.
I have some questions, too. Does the heart rate monitor matter as much during cycling as it does during a run? My chest strap gives me owies, but I like that it is more accurate than my watch.
Please let me know what you think. Thanks in advance!
Lovisa – I’d say absolutely yes to cross training and yes to strength training in particular.
I think I probably have a torn meniscus in my right knee. Xrays were normal and I never got an MRI, but for like 2 years anytime I’d run more than 2-3 miles my knee would swell up and fill with fluid for a couple of days. I was super frustrated being unable to run nearly as much as I wanted.
So, counter-intuitive as it sounds, I started doing barbell squats 3 times per week to strengthen my leg muscles in general and my quads in particular. I also switched to cycling, swimming and martial arts training to keep up my cardio conditioning in place of running. I started super light with just the bar, and increased the weight little by little to where now I’m doing 5×5 with 225lbs – not super heavy by weight lifting standards, but more than most endurance runners are used to doing.
And the result was awesome! The knee pain disappeared, I found I could run more and more without any adverse consequences later, and I just hit a half marathon PR a couple months ago! So yes, in my experience strength training can do wonders for a bad knee and get you back to the type of running you want to do.
Regarding the heart rate monitor, I’m the wrong guy to ask – I’m a pretty unsophisticated trainer. I use my garmin to tell me speed/pace and cadence when running, but that’s about it.
Cheers!
Thanks Lost in Space and congratulations on the PR! 225 lbs sounds like a big deal to me, but I understand why it feels a little humble to you. If I talk to a normal person about my running, I look like a superhero. But to an experienced runner, I am a beginner. It’s such a strange feeling.
Thanks for sharing your experience. That knee problem would drive me nuts! I’m so glad you are on the other side of it. I love martial arts, too, but I am cheap and don’t like paying for it, lol. Right now, I can’t even do 1 mile without knee pain. The pain was intense yesterday while we climbed a steep, icy slope. My seven-year-old daughter was scared and I acted confident, but I was thinking, “How will we get through this safely when I can’t even use my leg properly?” We got through it. I am so hopeful that cross training will fill my need for physical exertion without re-injuring myself. I did 11 miles on the bike today and it felt great! I feel like I still need a workout, but I’ll get used to that feeling I guess. Thank you for your encouragement!
Btw, I am obsessed with the run data. It’s part of the excitement for me. I love love love math, so the data feels like playtime. I know, what a dork. Feel free to roll your eyes, I deserve it.
Lovisa – weight lifting numbers are all about the ratio to the lifter’s own weight. For squats, most people would say that 1.5 times your body weight is a pretty good achievement. So for me at 190lbs to squat 225 is alright but not great, whereas that same squat for, say, a 120 lb person would be pretty darn impressive. But ultimately, unless you’re a competitive power lifter or need the numbers to stroke your ego, the numbers don’t really matter – it’s all about achieving your goals, like rehabbing an injury and helping to injury-proof yourself for the future (and maybe as a side effect, improving your physique for both your LO and SO 😉
If you’re interested in triathlons, look for a sprint distance tri to start with. It’s a 1/2 mile swim, 13 mile ride and 3 mile run. In terms of time and effort level, it comes out about the same as a half marathon, but with a lot less running on bad knees. If that gets to be too easy, you can move up to the Olympic distance which is double everything. I enjoy the sprint distance, and the training requirements fit into my life with a full time job and 3 kids
Awesome, thanks for the tip! I hadn’t heard of the sprint distance. Oh it’s killing me. I used to do at least a half marathon a week. I think my longest run last week was… oh never mind it was 13.1. I forgot I did a half marathon distance, I was going to complain about my short runs, but I checked my journal. Silly me, I need to be more grateful. I really like the 40-mile run week. I appreciate your encouragement and advice very much. It will help me adjust my attitude towards cross training. I keep telling myself that if I don’t run, I’ll get my knee back then I can run all I want.
I usually weigh around 124 so 225 sounds like a big deal to me. I guess I didn’t consider that your male body can lift so much more than mine. Silly me.
Lovisa – I suspect your biggest challenge if you get into strength training will be to keep your obsessive/competitive side in check and make yourself go slow. I’ve hurt myself a few times in the past lifting weights because I’d get too excited about challenging myself and too impatient to reach some arbitrary goal, and then I’d try something I shouldn’t and feel something tear and then have a 3 month setback.
As I mentioned, this time around I literally started just squatting the bar and adding 5 lbs each time. At first it felt way too easy and like a waste of time, but I forced myself to go slow and stick to the schedule and I’ve ended up gradually making good progress without injuring myself. I suspect, based on what you’ve shared with me so far, that you’re going to struggle with that same issue of wanting to push your limits faster than your tendons and ligaments can handle.
You think all of us here are just limit pushers in general who get restless with the status quo and feel like we just have to find out what more is possible?
Yes! I suspect we are limit pushers here at LwL. I know I am! Thanks for the words of caution. My struggles with training are in fact recovery and not overdoing it.
“I have $5 that one of you will cave and test them. If for no other reason than to see if the connection is still alive.”
If LO came back after 9 months even if it were for a visit I wouldn’t trust myself to be on my best behavior around her. Its why even when she was around, when she was my co-worker I maintained no outside working hours communication because I know where it would have lead. I know myself enough to know my limits and not test those limits.
If she could easily make me putty in her hand within the confounds of work, outside of work would just be asking for disaster. And she didn’t even intentionally try to do it. She just could without any effort.
Song of the Day: “Reason to Believe” – Rod Stewart (1971)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN0DlRZpUT8
LO #4 came out of the woodwork after 3 months NC. When I told my fellow moderator and real life friend that I was leaving, LO #4 sent me a FB request. We’d known each other for several years and that had never come up.
After I accepted her friend request, I had a dream about LO #4 in which I almost drove my car over a cliff. The EAP counselor said that it didn’t take a gypsy to figure that one out. When I asked LO #4 if it was ok if we weren’t FB friends, LO #4 said, “No problem.” When I checked a few minutes later, not only were we no longer friends, she blocked me.
That was the beginning of the end. Things changed between us. They were never the same after that. The EAP counselor said that I’d hit LO #4 with a bucket of cold water. She was looking for a reason to believe and I didn’t give her one. She got too close and I threw her out.
If you want the LE to end and your LO to go away, don’t give them a reason to believe.
I thankfully do not really worry about LO coming back around either in person, on the phone or online. I think she is 100% occupied with her new life, gentleman friend and job with not much thought of me I would imagine.
And yes I was this LE to be over. Now I just need the limerent part of my brain to cooperate.
Adam i know how you feel. I cannot go NC and see LO every week. It is so painful as it means my limerence doesnt reduce and just stays the same or gets worse (even when i think i am getting somewhere). The interactions are great but the aftermath is horrific.
Count your blessings – NC is a real blessing.
Vee somedays I feel the limerence is worse in her absence compared to when she was present. And the fact that she knows how to contact me but hasn’t. It’s been almost 9 months since she left.
I think why the limerence remains is that outside of initially meeting her (I didn’t develop limerence until over a year of knowing her) I didn’t pair bond with her as a potential mate but in a platonic manner. As I got to know her more I more and more enjoyed her company and talking to her. Listening to her when she needed someone, helping her with problems or tasks at work to help reduce her stress. I liked the feeling that I was helping her and she was thankful for it.
And now she is gone. I take solace in the fact that she is in a happy place in life even in my absence. I hope that fact will someday help me completely detach from her and move on. But at the moment I am not very hopeful.
I wish I read this earlier, I know this article is 5 years old, but it is just as relevant as ever.
I was limerent for a coworker for a good 3 years (it was actually pretty hellish in retrospect)
If you’re reading this, just know this is a cautionary tale, SO YOU DON’T END UP LIKE ME. Nip it at the bud. Go no contact or just at an arms length so things remain professional and less limerent.
Early on, he was a lovebomber and kept making me feel like I was the best thing that came into his life. Would choose me during shoot shag marry games because “I always offered something new to the table”. Kissed my hand and had the occasional physical touch because oh well we were friends. This creates the perfect ground for god-fucking-awful limerence.
He was manipulative, so after reading a few articles on this site I realise, he was the one of the worst people to make an LO. Easily flirting, all about himself, manipulative, always wanted someone to do something for him, easily dropped people at the drop of a finger. He also spent time with me when he was supposed to reassure his ex-gf that he was at home and sleeping. BIG MAJOR RED ASS FLAGS.
And of course, me being the limerent one, kept telling myself stories that he was greater and better than anyone I have ever encountered. Kept telling myself he was still a nice person, and that it was only just that one time.
I got carried away too, I always bought him expensive gifts and did him favours that frustrated him. He was like how this website describes, a basketcase, did not know how to reject me succinctly and politely. He would tell and ask me about resistance bands for instance, and I’d buy him a few the next day. Instead of politely rejecting or telling me he didn’t want it, he kept silent and told all my mutual friends he did not want to remain in contact with me ever again.
It left me with a difficult situation where I’d have to deal with him at work (clue: many life or death situations) where communication is vital, impertinent. I would get frustrated because I would want a response, and his default would to just keep mum. He was always this kind, helpful upstanding coworker in my mind, and to see him just blatantly ignoring me, it honestly hurt so much.
He kept this diva and less than professional attitude towards the end of last year and would be hot and cold. He would ignore me at work, and then when my manager asks him if he would want to take part in a musical I curated, he readily said yes.
It was horrendous, I wanted his cooperation in the musical, the recording, the choreography but he would just grey-rock. He started making me feel like I was the problem. Maybe I was, but I really didn’t deserve all the attitude.
I would point out his mistakes at work, i.e leaving a spoilt medication cart for a whole shift and only making ONE phone call to fix it (my colleague and I had to constantly request for medications to be sent to us one-by one), and not wanting to do his changes for his shift.
By now, I realized my LO was a narc because he got blown up after I called him out and he proceeds to shout at me in my manager’s office. When I apologized and tried to rectify with him, he kept giving me less than savoury responses, long story short, he became super difficult to work with. I was crying in locker rooms/break rooms after almost every encounter I had with him.
I confided in my manager again about his lackadaisical attitude with his work, and for some weird and unprofessional reason, he got to know about it. It became another shouting match, already going into verbal abuse. He started calling me names, like “dog”, started shaming for seeking therapy to deal with feelings for him. Started blaming me for giving all those gifts to him. It was horrendous. I couldn’t just stand there and watch him rip my soul apart with his taunts, so I fought back. My manager kept telling me that she did not know what to do with my situation. I was at a loss. I was already so heartbroken because my love wasn’t reciprocated and to deal with something like that at a workplace was the nail on the coffin.
I confided in HR about this horrendous situation and they decided to send the both of us away from our original wards. Funny thing, he is still under my former manager, (lol they kept him), I finally realized my loyalty never meant anything to them.
I was sad, even crying to the directors and management, but now that I am in a new environment I’m kinda glad. I got to start afresh, and I don’t have mutual colleagues breaking me apart telling me that I should have never confessed to him or bought him gifts. My ex-colleagues were never good at being compassionate and understanding towards my situation and kept siding him.
I learnt so many things from this experience, and it is honestly to better to keep your personal life private especially in a professional setting. I was carried away, obsessed with the dude and telling a lot of people about him but it came biting me in the butt.
Here’s to living a purposeful life away from ex-narc LO and even if I’m limerent, I hope to fall for someone who’s worth it, not this asshole.
Thanks for this site Dr L!! I am usually someone who needs a lot of reassurance, reading this site, makes me feel tons better, and keeps me grounded.
Welcome to LwL!
It sounds like you came to the right place.
The way the site’s set up, only the last 12 posts show on the main page. At the rate people are commenting on things ATM, it’s easy for comments to just drop off and get lost.
There are ways to track your comments. Maybe DrL can add one of those.
Sorry to hear about your experience. If you haven’t yet, check out
https://livingwithlimerence.com/is-your-limerent-object-a-narcissist/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/narcissist-los/
Those might help you validate your experience. That can be huge in getting past it.
Greetings LwL,
I’ve been lurking for a while and reading several articles here which I think have been quite enlightening. I’ve suspected for some months now that I am prone to limerence and always have been. It is heartening to know that others can and do manage life with similar difficulties as I have. I am a middle-aged man but never married, no current SO, and close to giving up on the idea of ever having one.
In hindsight, my history with limerence goes back several decades to my first real crush. The kind that can both cripple your emotional state as well as set a clear idea of the kind of woman you seek out for the rest of your life. I was young and stupid so never plucked up the courage to disclose to LO#1 even when I knew she was single and suspected that she might have felt the same for me. My self-doubt got in the way. Eventually our paths diverged and we grew apart but it took me the better part of about 10 years to fully accept what never was. I may or may not have had a chance with her, either way I missed it and will regret it for the rest of my life.
Fast forward to today and after several attempts at online dating I’ve binned that whole concept as a waste of time and effort. My introverted personality type is not suited to that method of meeting potential romantic interests. In fact, I believe my personality type combined with my personal circumstances leaves me particularly prone to develop limerence. I live alone and have no family left in the country, and my social circle consists of a handful of very close friends, all of whom are married with kids. The introverted trait of an analytical mind combined with plenty of comfortable alone time means my mind has no barriers or distractions to prevent downward spirals into ruminations and fantasies. When not limerent I have used these times to delve deeply into the philosophy of Stoicism.
My philosophical journeys came to an abrupt halt recently (can’t concentrate anymore) when a new girl started work in my division. She is qualified in the exact same discipline as I am except she has very little experience where I am in some ways one of the office boffins and unofficially expected to pass down skills and knowledge to the younger team members. She seems eager to learn but instead of youthful exuberance she has a kind of tranquil confidence and soft-spoken manner that instantly reminded me of the last person I knew like this: my mother (who passed away some years ago). I barely know a thing about her other than her age and qualifications, and yet my fall into limerence has been very sudden and very strong. I am now aware of my limerence, however, unlike previously times and have been cautious about it so far. I don’t even know if she has an SO or not, although I think it likely given her looks.
There’s a few problems I can foresee for me in the near future. Avoidance or limiting contact is going to be difficult in our professional setting. So far she has also shown particular interest in me about a few things outside of work that we happened to chat about. Nothing overly personal but things that any reasonable person might consider noteworthy. Other colleagues might ask about them occasionally, whereas she will almost certainly ask about them. In hindsight it was my mistake for mentioning these things in the first place. Countering my limerence by focussing on her flaws is impossible because she has none. At least none that my bewitched senses can identify yet.
I think my only option for now is to constantly remind myself that she is young enough to be my daughter, probably already has an SO, and unlikely to be romantically interested in a mild-mannered, average-looking, middle-aged bookworm.
Hi StoicMustard, I love your alias. Clue is one of my favorite games and your name reminds me of Colonel Mustard. Welcome to our club!
“ Countering my limerence by focussing on her flaws is impossible because she has none.”
That is funny. My LO is perfect, too. Limerents are good at overlooking red flags.
I was eager to say, “What are you waiting for? Pursue her!” Until you mentioned that she is young enough to be your daughter. Oh nuts. This is going to be hard on you. Let’s see…
Speedwagon is experimenting with leaning into his relationships with other female friends to take the edge off of his limerence. Can you try that? Please remember that this girl did not cause the problem. Please don’t take it out in her.
Good luck!
Hi StoicMustard, welcome. Thanks for sharing your story.
As a long term romantic partner, her being 20+ years younger is probably a tough hurdle to overcome. You may have different goals in life and she may be uncomfortable with that age difference. But, don’t count her out as a possible good friend if you think you can handle a close friendship with this woman and if that is appropriate in your work atmosphere and roles.
My LO is 14 years younger than me and is my employee in a small office who I need to collaborate with almost daily. We are both married so insurmountable barrier. I have learned how to interact with her at the office and not have it be crushing on me because our interactions stay fairly routine, and I don’t dive into heavy personal matters with her. This has kept my LE somewhat stable. But I’m not past it by any means. I just manage it so I can function in life.
You might have the luxury of no barriers (other than age which may or may not be a barrier) so if you find a chemistry with this woman relationally you may want to explore it. It may not be romantic, but maybe it provides some closeness you seek. On the other hand, if the limerence consumes you by getting to know this person more personally and you can’t handle ‘just friendship’ maybe you need to practice keeping her at arms distance and only having a strict professional relationship with her.
There are a ton of blog articles here at LwL that cover a ton of situations so read up and keep checking in. Let us know how it goes.
“ Countering my limerence by focussing on her flaws is impossible because she has none.”
I know that feeling exactly. My LO was a co-worker (she since moved on) and quite younger than me as well. And she was (I swear she still is no matter what people say) a perfect angel. She was also single when I first met her, and I am married.
As Miss Lovisa warns that don’t take your frustrations with your limerence out on her. In hindsight, since she left, I can see that the issues in my marriage and drifting through mid-life had a lot to do with getting a glimmer for LO and getting attached the way that I did to her.
LO was a very friendly and sweet lady and was always understanding when we worked together. By how you describe your colleague she seems to have the disposition LO did and its easy to forget she just has a pleasant personality and see more than there is, making the limerence even worse or the start of the glimmer.
And as you mentioned with your colleague, LO is a very attractive woman. The kind that’s out of any man’s league if you ask me. And don’t we all like pretty gals?
Best of luck to you. And don’t be afraid to post more. I’ve been here about a month and the community here has been so helpful. And seems Miss Lovisa is here 24/7 lol She is always ready to help.
Hello everyone, I finally decided to delurk. Came here to discuss my work LO. We were good work friends, working in close proximity, for about nine months. She lives across the country, so no physical contact until early February, when we finally met in person. The chemistry was real, and we kept gravitating to each others’ presence during the three day seminar. I realized I was in deep trouble when she went back home and I started missing her. I didn’t say or do anything with my LO that I wouldn’t do in front of my wife; only contact was a hug, no flirting, no innuendo.
In fact, that weekend was hell. Couldn’t get her off my mind, no matter what I tried. Couldn’t wait for Monday, and I made up excuses to call her, IM her (at work), the whole rest of it. This pattern repeated for another weekend, and then I made an appointment with a CBT counselor. Counselor’s given me good advice, and then I found this website.
Both the LO and I are married. Don’t know much about her marriage (she doesn’t mention him a lot), but I know that I cherish my marriage (and I mention this a lot to the LO, who says she wants to meet my wife). The day I married my wife was easily the happiest day of my life, and eight years later, I love her even more than I did on our wedding day. Wife knows LO is a good work friend, not sure she knows I have a crush on her. She definitely knew something’s been bothering me, and I only describe it in vague terms. My wife is supportive of anything that helps me feel better.
The attraction seems to be mutual, LO told me she respected me, said I was brilliant, even said she admired me for keeping to a work/life balance. She remembers little details about my life – even remembered the name of my ex-wife, something I only mentioned once. A couple days ago, she asked me detailed questions about my weekend – did I go to that conditioning class I mentioned? How brutal was it? I think she truly cares about me. I tried to extricate myself from this conversation – I’m sure you have a meeting in 10 minutes, so I’ll let you go. No meeting, let’s keep chatting (and like a fool, I went along). I spoke to a female friend about the LO, who shared her version her own work crush, and this friend is telling me that my LO is really into me, which is good for my ego, and reassuring at a certain level, but also troubling at another level.
My resolve is that we only talk about work stuff, nothing personal. The first day I tried it (last week), she called me to talk about work, noticed I was in a bad mood (only two hours sleep the night before – guess what I was obsessing about), and asked about me. I snapped at her “it’s personal and I don’t want to talk about it”), and then immediately apologized for being a jerk. Sigh, small steps I guess. I’m doing OK keeping to this resolve, but it’s extremely difficult.
I want to go full NC, but that’s only doable at a very high price. My two options to go full NC seem to be either a) leave the company or b) request to be transferred to another project. My manager is very good to me, and just gave me the best performance review of my career, so leaving the company is not palatable. Option B has potential, but the boss just gave me this high profile project (with the LO) in early January, is expecting good things from me, and if I were to tell him I have to leave it for personal reasons, it would screw him over, and start God knows what sort of rumors, which neither the boss nor I need. Project will last until at least second quarter 2024. Yay.
In the past couple of days, some of the polish is coming off the LO, I’m starting to focus on her traits that I don’t like. (For example, her ambition exceeds her abilities, which in my mind makes her dangerous.) This is slow work, and I’m not expecting a solution anytime soon. But, I’m supposed to be at a work conference with her at the end of March (I might be able to get out of that one), they’re talking about an in-person team meeting in April, and finally another work meeting in mid-June.
Fellow limerencers with a work LO, how did you deal with this? What strategies work best?
Thanks for your advice and support.
Sun Monster
Your story is quite familiar to me. I too was assigned to a project with LO at work. Previously we both worked in two different locations within the same company. I was assigned to help LO on a project for 4 months. I had no choice as I was the only other one in the company that could do what LO did to finish this project.
I fell hard and fast. LO was just a kind and sweet lady. She did nothing that I could tell to solicit the attention I gave her. I was just seeing more than what was there in her words and actions. Then the special treatment. I would bring coffee or breakfast to the office most mornings but it was always something LO expressed that she liked in conversation. So yeah I was doing it for her I was just smart enough to bring enough for everyone. I bought her a Christmas gift in 2021, the year that we worked together that 4 months.
Unlike your situation LO left the company in June of 2022. She decided to move on to another job. She was single when she first moved to that location from another department in the company. Around fall of 2021 she met the young man that she is wife now. She decided to take a new path in life and so she choose NC herself. I had no say in it.
Since June I have been successful in maintaining NC. I leave that to LO if she wants to contact me she knows how. In that time since she has only called me one time on the phone, when she was visiting the location she use to work at. It put me on a high for weeks after getting to talk to her for that 10-15 minutes. Though if I could have found the words I would have tried to make it last forever.
The one thing that helps me maintain NC with LO is that I know that she is happy with this man she is with. He seems to genuinely care about her and her daughters. LO had recently been divorced when I first met her in 2020. I have to put LO’s happiness first even if it causes me the pain that it is. There is a line in a song that has great perspective ….
“You’ll only know you love her when you let her go.”
Let Her Go — Passenger
But I totally understand where you are at now. I was there. The high of LO and your logic being mitigated by the limerence. It’s a difficult battle. All the rationalization of your words and actions. Pushing your logic to the back of your head saying that you can handle this balance. All the while completely oblivious to the fact that most people around you can see it. Possibly even your spouse as you said yours notice a change in you. As someone here says “your limerence bleeds out of you” and that’s why other people can observe a change in you all the while you think you are handling it fine because your limerent brain tells you that you are and you believe it.
You have a road to travel that I have not had to in the last 9 months. LO saw to that whether it was intentional or not. I have no idea what she saw in my words and actions. She never voiced any which way. But if the rest of the staff at that office could tell I had a crush on LO than I am sure she could too.
I am wishing you the best. And echo what Speedwagon said; feel free to post as much as you want. There are people here in all kinds of circumstances with their LO. And there are people that are willing to listen and help. This is a great place to find a listening ear.
Hi, and welcome, SunMonster. I see my LO (a consultant to my firm) only about once a month or two months at meetings. So that limited exposure helps. A few other strategies: NC (or LC to work issues only) outside meetings; choose a seat out of his sight-line or put my back to him in meetings; avoid eye contact – I even leave my glasses on sometimes, even though I am short sighted so only need them for reading – this makes people far from me blurry so I can’t even see him clearly; No initiating or prolonging conversation; keep conversation strictly to polite greetings and work matters if I can (we are both married so we need to be careful not to arouse suspicion by being rude); make sure others are seated next to me so he can’t; sometimes saying my mantras in my head during contact with him; ask others for help unless he is literally the only one who can help; changing the subject if conversation gets too personal. These are just some of the suggestions I have learned through this site and the Emergency Deprogramming Course (highly recommended!). Good luck! You’ll find a wealth of resources and a very supportive community here.
Hello TP,
I’ve come independently to the same advice as you gave.
I got out of the end of the month in-person meeting, so that’s good. LO called on Friday looking for advice on how she can be more tactful with a problem co-worker. I gave her the advice and think I kept things professional, not personal.
She turns her camera on during work meetings, which I need to find a way to block. Unfortunately, her MS Teams picture shows up in all her emails, and that picture is so beautiful.
Trying to focus on her negatives, and it is helping a little.
Been going to other people for answers first instead of LO, and when we talk, I frequently say things like “I’m sure you have other things to do”; might be time to assert that I have other things to do. Found a mantra, sits on a post-it on my monitor: I have better things to do.
Hi Sun Monster, welcome! Sorry to hear of the turmoil a work LO has caused. If you have read my story at all in the Rescue Fantasy or New Years Purpose blog you will know that just a little over a year ago I became limerent for one of my employees. It struck very suddenly after working with this woman for over 3 years and it sent my life in a tailspin.
My situation was/is very tough because I could not escape this woman. I was not going to fire her because of my LE so I had to learn to coexist with her in the midst of limerence. For a great while I though the attraction was mutual, and things led eventually to me disclosing a couple months back. Turns out she was not attracted to me and had only felt close friendship.
Oddly, I am now in a bit of a limerent fade with her which is a relief.
Here is what I did to manage my LE in the midst of coexisting with LO.
First, I set a LC strategy. This basically included no personal interactions with LO other than required face to face work interactions at the office. I did not want to text, I did do any lunch outings alone, or take her on our if office work business alone. Over time our in office collaborations started to become routine and the reward of them felt less and less. I was able to handle the daily in office routine with her fairly well.
But, the pitfall for me was off hours texting. My LO had the tendency to text me personally from time to time, in the evening, on the weekend. This sent my limerent mind on overdrive. If I indulged in the texting, which became heavy in December with LO, the I would find myself in a euphoric/depressive rollercoaster. So now, after disclosure, I do not text with her. Basically texting is a bad LE trigger for me, I don’t handle it well so I eliminated it.
I also am in a very good marriage, and during LE I have increased my love and attention for my SO. It’s a weird thing to love and cherish your SO and yet be totally infatuated and have desire and love for another person at the same time. But improving my relationship with SO has been helpful too.
Last, I have developed a nice friendship with another woman at my office that is truly friendship and not limerence. This woman is more relationally compatible with me than LO and I have leaned into this friendship more in last couple months. This has helped a bit too…finding other people to invest in emotionally than LO.
As of now, I still try to keep to my LC routine with LO. My limerence is not gone, I still desire LO a great deal, but it is also not distressing to me much any more. For me, I try to control the narrative and not do anything where I expect any certain behavior out of LO. Limerence is really about the expectation of reciprocation to feed the hit of reward from LO. If I don’t set up any expectation then I can’t be let down. My office routine with LO is such that I don’t have expectation from her any longer and I can coexist with her without feeling high and then dropping to a low later. It’s fairly stable.
Hope this helps, it sounds like you are in a good position to make your normal day to day fairly mundane and routine with LO. You will just have to get through these face to face moments with her that pop up a couple times a year. And as always, it will take cooperation on LOs part not to pursue you. If you read the blog on NC you will see Dr L recommends a staged withdrawal and you sound like you are already taking that tactic. Good on you, keep it up.
Grammer correction…no lunch outings alone or out of office outings alone.
Hello Speedwagon,
One very good thing is that my LO and I don’t contact each other off- hours. We have each other’s personal cell numbers, but we’ve never used them, and I’ve never been seriously tempted.
Like you, I’m struck by how weird it is that I love my wife so much, but am still limerent for someone else. Intellectually, the limerence would make sense if I were unhappy with my wife, but that’s just not the case.
Your story gives me hope, thanks for sharing.
For me texting was the devil. I would not enter that arena with LO if you can help it.
My LO would text me about once every couple weeks off work hours random things. A meme she liked, or a follow up to a personal conversation. I had never texted personally with another woman before, and it sent my mind in all kinds of directions about what it meant. Problem was, my LO is fairly poor at conversation, so texting with her was like texting with a teenager. I wanted to be conversational, she would text in short thoughts fragments. This pattern lasted for 6 months until December she upped her frequency and started getting more conversational in texts. In a 2 week period we texted everyday, sometimes lasting for hours. I was sure she was attracted to me and it felt like we were starting an EA and quite honestly it gave me a huge mood boost at the time. I wanted it.
Then she went hot/cold after xmas and I crashed big time. Some circumstances at the office led me to disclose and that is when she claimed it was all just friendship, no feelings of attraction.
Now 2 months later she is still very warm and attentive to me at the office. We have a good chemistry together, but I know not to go down that road of texting with her. I leave our relationship, which is mild friendship at best, at the office only. This works for me and my limerence seems to be fading some. I have not had a depressive low for a few good weeks now.
Hello everybody, in my case is not a coworker but my gym instructor. I am happily married although I have always had crushes but nothing serious, quite fleeting and with limits, without risks.
I came to know that I was experiencing limerence because I am absolutely obsessed with him, there is no moment of the day that I am not thinking about him. It was something unexpected, not that I liked him a little bit but this kind of obsession, in fact the first time I saw him I didn’t like him physically at all and now I find him super attractive.
The question here is that I think that several things are coming together on a chemical level, because my LO is my gym instructor, and it all started because I loved his classes (group activities), how he encouraged and how immediately he learned my name and told me things in class. I enjoy every moment I spend with him in class, expecting my reward in the form of ‘well done’ or ‘keep it up’, but now I’m nervous about class too. Every time I’m getting into more of his classes, and all I want is to know that he’s attracted to me, it’s not that I’m thinking of breaking up my marriage, because I don’t see him as a life partner either, but I want to be with him and I would spend my entire day in his classes sweating next to him, and since he is a gym instructor I can easily find him online without having to follow him, I spend the day looking at his gym photos on the Internet. I know the solution would be to stop going to his classes, but in my case it’s a double effort because I’m not only attracted to him, but I love his classes, and I’m very motivated with physical activity, which I love. It is not the first time that I feel a certain crush with a gym monitor, the previous case was because he showed interest in me but the thing stayed there, nothing happened, and for me were only a couple of fantasies, nothing to do with this obsession that It haunts me all day, it’s causing me stomach and even sleep problems… but at the same time I’m suffering from it I enjoy it, looking forward to Monday so I can see him and be in his class. Is anyone else that have had his LE with a gym monitor or something similar? I am convinced that there is something very chemical that is happening to me because when we exercise we release endorphins….
I feel that if this obsession decreased and became something more voluntary, it would be perfect, as a fun spark in my life, a healthy crush without further complications. Thank you if you read this and forgive my English, I’m Spanish…
And by the way my LO and my SO they Know eah other, they worked together, so yes, my husband is also a gym instructor but never felt attraction for that part of him. Any thoughts?
Save yourself the worst emotional pain you can experience. Change classes. Stop looking at the photos. No Contact.
Thank you for your response. I know that is the solution but honestly right now I am completely unable to not have contact with him, I can’t and I don’t want to. This started a week ago, I hope something will happen and I will get over this obsession.
Maria, I have just read your original post again. Several points leap out at me.
“I came to know that I was experiencing limerence because I am absolutely obsessed with him, there is no moment of the day that I am not thinking about him”
“….with this obsession that It haunts me all day, it’s causing me stomach and even sleep problems…”
“ I spend the day looking at his gym photos on the Internet“
In my opinion, these are “danger” signs. All of us limerents, in one way or another, start off with feelings of excitement and elation. That’s how limerence works. That’s how I started, three years ago. The pleasure was sublime at times but I was kidding myself and it has wrecked my emotional life. I am now picking up the pieces. We all have different stories and complications.
I know that all sounds rather severe. Others may have a gentler view. This site has some brilliant and insightful blogs written by Dr.L. Please spend time reading the ones which you feel are relevant to you.
Lovisa’s advice is sound. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you all the very best.
Hi Maria, bienvenidos! Forgive my Spanish, I lived in the Caribbean for a few years and didn’t learn as much Spanish as I should have. To quote what my 4-year-old daughter told her new class when we moved back to our home country, “El Espaniol de mi Mama es muy malo.” I will communicate with English since your English is so much better than my Spanish. You have come to the right place. You have limerence and it seems to be a big problem for you.
Frederico’s advice is spot on. If you can go no contact and stop looking at him online, you will probably recover sooner.
Here are some other things to think about.
When you think about your LO, you are training yourself to think about LO. The more you do it, the stronger the habit becomes. It’s important that you replace daydreams with something else. Can you visit this website instead of thinking about your LO?
I’m sorry, but if you can talk yourself into avoiding his classes, that is also important for you. It sounds like contact with LO is more than you can handle. Please consider taking classes from someone else.
Recovery will be challenging, but you are not alone. You will find a community of people on this website who want to support you and help you get through your struggles. You can offer support to us, too. We all need it.
And yes, we have had other people in our community who experience limerence for personal trainers. My current LO is somewhat of a running coach for me. I agree that pheromones could play a role because when LO3 and I hiked together, he smelled sooooooo good, but I didn’t recognize a specific scent, I just knew that his smell drew me closer to him.
Best of luck!
Thank you very much Lovisa for your reply and advice.
Right now I don’t have the strength to stop attending his classes, I feel it makes me happy. I am going to start trying what you tell me to avoid thinking about him 24/7 and focus on other aspects of my life that I was enjoying before.
I also feel that if I somehow knew he was attracted to me my limerence would decrease because I just want to like him nothing more, but that also leads me to look for encounters and situations to force that feeling. The other day I asked him for advice to strengthen my back and to build for me a routine with exercises, we were talking for a while, I remember starting awkwardly and feeling more comfortable as the conversation progressed which also leads me to think that maybe the more I deal with him the less will be the obsession…
Thank you!
Maria, it will be much worse if you discover that he has “feelings” for you, too. I understand that desire for reciprocation, it is a symptom of limerence. You are better off if you don’t know how he feels about you.
When you asked for advice, you were being alluring to him. Here is how that works. Men love to solve problems. Men love to be accepted. Men love to be appreciated. If you let him solve your problem and you express gratitude, you will meet some of his needs. He will associate you with positive feelings. I think this is one of the reasons Adam is so addicted to his LO. He felt significant in her life, which he was. Her kindness and gratitude felt amazing to him. It would be a good thing if Adam wasn’t stuck. I recommend that you read the comments on the New Year’s blog when you get a chance.
Please don’t dig yourself deeper into this hole. Just enjoy the contact you have. Be grateful for it. Don’t think about it when you aren’t with him. That is where the intrusive thoughts come from.
Please don’t seek reciprocation from him. It is a terrible idea! Also, don’t disclose your feelings to LO.
I understand why you aren’t ready to let go. It makes sense because you are getting some benefits from LO. I think you need to list your boundaries if you plan to continue seeing LO.
What standards do you and SO have for male/female friendships? Are you allowed to have male friends?
Do you know what an emotional affair is? Is that something your marriage can survive?
Are you okay with physical contact? How much?
Do you want to stay married to your SO? Are you willing to hurt all the people that would be devastated if you cheated on your husband?
You need to think about these things in advance because it’s too late to make decisions in a moment of passion. Your cognitive reasoning will be compromised.
Good luck! I’m cheering for you, Maria!
Hi Maria,
Thanks for sharing your story and reaching out here. I want to add my voice to the people advising you not to disclose your feelings to your LO. I did, and I learned that my LO had the same feelings for me. It felt wonderful for all of about 30 seconds, and then led to the crushing realization that nothing could ever come from these feelings because I’m committed to my SO, just like you seem to be. Ten minutes after mutual disclosure, I was heartbroken and crying. That was in December, and the last few months have been a roller coaster of emotions with some definite highs but many more bad feelings than good – constant anxiety when she hasn’t texted me back for a couple hours, deep depression during times when we’ve decided to go NC (including now), and lots of challenges to my morality and commitment to my marriage and my image of what kind of person I actually am.
If you were single, then absolutely tell him how you feel and maybe something great would come from it. But if you’re in a committed relationship, only 2 things can come from disclosing your feelings to him – either he rejects you and you feel terrible about the rejection, or he reciprocates and you end up in super dangerous and painful territory where the BEST case scenario is that only you and him get your hearts broken.
It’s also not fair to an LO to encourage them to develop feelings for someone who is ultimately unavailable. I feel absolutely terrible for the pain and heartache I’ve caused for my LO – I’ve basically done a lot of stuff to try and keep her feelings for me as strong as mine are for her, even though there’s no chance of us ever actually being together, and I know I’ve caused her a ton of heartbreak as well as myself, and since I really do care about her so much, I just hate the fact that I’ve caused all this hurt for her. Right now, your distressing feelings are yours alone – if you make your feelings clear to your LO, you might be inviting him into the distress zone as well, and if things go badly, your SO gets to share in the distress as well.
In my opinion, personal trainers or gym instructors are an especial danger because we are allowed to stare at them endlessly. Their job is also to look fit and good. Then, when everyone breaks a sweat – pheromones galore, and we get a natural high from exercise that we associate with them.
Thank you all for your replies and support.
Lovisa regarding the questions you asked me, there is no problem in my marriage in having friends of another sex, and I talk to him openly about my LO as he knows him and gives classes that he also gives, in another gym of the same chain, but of course my SO doesn’t know anything about my limerence.
I don’t want to break up my marriage, in fact we are looking to have a child, I don’t see myself in a couple with my LO at all, in fact I think I’m only attracted to him in the gym environment, I haven’t seen him outside the gym yet but I have the feeling that I’m not going to see him in the same way. I think I like the activity I do with him so much that I have associated this high with him.
Yesterday I attended one of his classes and a new feeling appeared towards him which was anger. Last thursday I had asked him for an exercise routine to strengthen my back which so far he doesn’t seem to have done which has annoyed me a bit, and yesterday I could see him as someone a bit more cocky…
What I liked the most about him is that he does everything with great grace, with a lot of style. I still feel that if I somehow knew that he was attracted to me even a little bit my obsession would decrease, I don’t know if he has a partner, I know he had one some time ago (since I’ve been ‘studying’ him a lot on social media).
What bothers me most about this situation is that I can’t get rid of these nerves in my stomach. I’m already looking for it much less on the Internet, paying more attention to what I don’t like and telling myself how absurd this situation is, but at the same time I’m afraid that everything will turn around and I’ll end up disliking him because I like the feeling of sparkle. I don’t want this desire to go to his classes and these previous nerves to disappear and being attracted to him, in fact, that’s how I started and it was great because that’s all it was, not intrusive thoughts all day or these nerves in my stomach, going back to that previous state is what I’m trying to do.
Today I had signed up for two of his classes but I had a dental appointment, for a moment I almost changed my appointment to continue attending his classes but I didn’t, it’s a good sign isn’t it?
Thank you very much for taking the time to answer me and to Dr L for these great resources that are helping me a lot!
“… I still feel that if I somehow knew that he was attracted to me even a little bit my obsession would decrease…”
Maria, this is a common symptom of limerence. You desire reciprocation from your LO. It doesn’t get better if you discover that your LO has feelings for you, it gets worse. I caution you against disclosing to your LO. Please read the articles about disclosure.
“ I don’t want this desire to go to his classes and these previous nerves to disappear and being attracted to him, in fact, that’s how I started and it was great because that’s all it was, not intrusive thoughts all day or these nerves in my stomach, going back to that previous state is what I’m trying to do.”
I see that you are trying to get back to a pleasant phase of limerence. It’s like a drug addict chasing the euphoria of the first high. I don’t think it’s possible. I understand why you want to do it, that desire makes sense, but I don’t think it will work.
Yes, it is a good sign that you chose to visit the dentist instead of seeing your LO. That was a step in the right direction.
Maria, Dr. L encourages us limerents to go no contact and live with purpose. I want you to keep those ideas in your thoughts. It sounds like you want to keep your marriage strong. I hope you remember your commitment to marriage as you navigate your LE. This is so hard, but you are strong. You can get through this.
Maria, I echo Lovisa.
When my LE became distressing to me I kept thinking that I just needed to know my LO felt the same then it would all be OK. In fact, even now, I still get caught up in feeling that way. It’s a limerent lie in your mind. Read enough stories here and you will see that mutual limerence seems almost more distressing than one sided limerence when barriers are present.
I would do what you can to lessen your contact with this trainer and start to live with purpose towards your SO whom you seem to value and cherish a life with.
Maria, I listened to a podcast today about a woman who had an affair with her trainer. I think it could be a good wake up call for you. I hope the link works. I am not tech-savvy.
https://soundcloud.com/affairhealing/recoveryroom213?utm_source=clipboard&utm_campaign=wtshare&utm_medium=widget&utm_content=https%253A%252F%252Fsoundcloud.com%252Faffairhealing%252Frecoveryroom213
Thanks Lovisa, I listened the podcast but I feel it is not the same situation but I found it very useful.
I am here again to tell you a little bit about how my LE is evolving and just in case my experience could help anybody.
I’m still quite obsessed, but a little more focused on myself, my work, my personal life…. My relationship with LO has been growing, but it all comes down to sports issues. The thing is, sometimes I feel like I get attention from him and sometimes I don’t, like he didn’t remember that I told him I had scoliosis, but then in another class he wasn’t teaching, he came in I don’t know what for and when he came out, we were at the time doing a plank, he tickled my leg.
Yesterday he told me that I had been doing great for days and that I should be proud. But there is no indication that he might be physically attracted to me, not that I gave him any clues that I am attracted to him either. Many of you advised me about not disclose my “feelings” towards him, I see very difficult that this could happen and I don’t even think about it, our relationship is merely sporty and scarce, we do not train alone, the activities are in group, there may be some comments at the exit of the class, I have asked him several times but about the activity or my health. It is strange at this point when we have talked more that I have not told him who my husband is, since they know each other, I feel that I should tell him as soon as possible and at the same time I do not want to close that door completely, I do not want him to treat me differently…although there is no special treatment actually, I think that maybe he can be more aware of me than of other participants or I feel that I get along with him more than others but that is also because I go to many of his classes and I usually stand in the front row right next to him. I really enjoy his classes and with the training, I have also managed to get into another class with a different instructor and I have also enjoyed it. Already just going to the gym even if I don’t go to my LO’s classes I like it because I feel like I can meet him, on friday I went to the gym, not to his class, but I happened to meet him there, and he said “look who we have over here”, and then I was still able to ask him some questions because I had doubts with an exercise (he was the one who did the exercise routine for me). I feel that I have a little more control over my thoughts, intrusive thoughts have been reduced and my stomach is getting better, but I still get nervous every time I go to see him, in fact the other day when I asked him to create my exercise routine for strenghing my back, I told him that I had many back problems not only because of my scoliosis but also because I was very nervous and he told me that I did not seem so, that I transmitted a calm aura but then when talking you could see that I was nervous, what he doesn’t know (I guess and hope) is that what makes me nervous is talking to him.
Yesterday we also met when I was leaving the club and he told me that I always seemed to be in a hurry, I see that he makes some appreciations about me which leads me to think that he is paying attention to me, I don’t know. I keep feeling that I only like him in that gym environment, I admire him a lot and sometimes I am able to see his unattractive part (which if I be honest this part is pretty big since he is not an objective attractive person). Well I don’t know if I’m fooling myself but I think I’m staying in control. Sometimes I find myself thinking about our talks and I interrupt the thoughts, I do not know if already by tiredness or what… but I think it could be a good sign.
If it helps anyone to have a lot of work and a busy social life it helps to keep your thoughts away from your LO, although I guess that’s pretty bad advice. I’m sorry I can’t be more helpful, as you can see I have very little experience in this LE thing and I feel also like a 15 years old girl…
“I think this is one of the reasons Adam is so addicted to his LO. He felt significant in her life, which he was. Her kindness and gratitude felt amazing to him.”
I wish I could feel that again. Ladies Miss Lovisa is right. If you have a man please tell him you appreciate him. Thank him. We do it all for you. And as this LE is proving to me personally if its not at home it will be elsewhere. Im not condoning my behavior. Theres no excuse. But there are reasons.
And yes it goes both ways. We need to show appreciate for what you do for us as well. Its not a one way street.
Every man has a hook. Mine; come home from work one day and see momma in a dress and high heels cooking dinner for the night. Just ask him what gets his goat. I think a lot of times things like limerence come around because of the absence in something in our existing relationships.
Also shorts, tank top and a sun hat are a good combo too. 🙂
Thanks for the tips, Adam! I am not a high-heal girl, but I think I can do the dinner and dress thing for my SO… you have me thinking.
By the way, us ladies need to feel like the work is done and we can relax. Women are always aware of unfinished chores. It’s so nice when they’re finished because then we can do fun stuff.
Today was supposed to be day 5 of NC but I didn’t make it – I had to see LO briefly to sign some papers and we ended up chatting at her desk for half an hour. In a public area at least (although I sort of wondered if any of her office mates noticed our chemistry or how much we obviously know about each others’ lives). But at least when she had messaged me about signing the papers, I successfully fought the urge to invite her to bring them to my private office like she used to. I definitely thought about it for a minute before thinking better and telling her I’d come to her in her shared office. I still don’t trust either of us to be alone together in my office.
And seeing her and talking with her felt really good of course, but then the second I walked out I felt the crushing emptiness of wanting her more and not knowing when I’ll get to see her and talk with her again. And a few minutes later I broke down and texted her “nice to see you today 😊”, hoping for a “nice to see you too” or better yet “I missed you”, but got nothing… nothing… finally half hour later she replied with a 😊 emoji with no words – well, that’s better than nothing… does she want to see me more? Does she want me to keep my distance? Does she still care about me? Does she love me as much as I love her? Damn these intrusive thoughts!
It’s never enough. Nothing I’m willing to actually do will ever be enough. I know this. As much as I enjoy every moment of contact with her, it always leaves me wanting so much more, with loads of anxiety and depression to follow. Why do I keep doing this?
Back to no contact tomorrow. Goal tomorrow will be to just make it through the day without contacting her. Next day, same goal. Next day, same goal…
But then I think to myself, she’s leaving in like a month and I’ll probably never get to see her again. Why not spend as much time with her as possible now, stockpile as many memories as I can? Oh yeah, because it’s morally wrong and it’s wrecking me emotionally.
Tomorrow, back to NC… and a much needed appointment with my therapist as well… and hopefully lots of quality time with SO…
I’m sorry you are struggling, Lost in Space. It must be so hard. I’m taking the tough love approach here because I think you need it. You are an endurance athlete, I know you can do hard things. You can endure this LE suffering without blowing up your life.
“ Does she want me to keep my distance?”
Yes, when she is thinking clearly, she wants to have distance from you.
“ Does she love me as much as I love her?”
Love is unselfish. What you two are doing is selfish. It feels like love, but I don’t think it is. I’m so sorry, I know that’s painful to hear.
“ Why do I keep doing this?”
Addiction. The good news is that you already have the skills to overcome addiction.
“ Why not spend as much time with her as possible now, stockpile as many memories as I can? Oh yeah, because it’s morally wrong and it’s wrecking me emotionally.”
One more reason is that you two are too tempted and might give in. I don’t want to see this escalate. When you are thinking clearly, you don’t want it to escalate either.
It’s not helpful to answer the other questions so I won’t. I can only imagine how hard this is for you, Lost in Space.
Here’s a song for you
“Never Enough” from the Greatest Showman.
https://youtu.be/6jZVsr7q-tE
I love your plan: no contact, visit the therapist and dive into your connection with SO. Yes! You got this!
“Damn these intrusive thoughts!”
Not only being physically ill the last six days the intrusive thoughts have been killing my ability to get any sleep. And just in general. And it’s taking it toll on my ability to do my job and function in general on so little sleep.
For the first time in a long time I had a real vivid dream of LO Monday morning before I woke up. We were all back at work together. I was working in her location and it felt really nice. We were talking and laughing together. It felt so real. Like this was actually happening. And then it was the end of the day and we were all getting ready to say our goodbyes until the next day and then LO turns to me to tell that she is moving away and her and her gentleman friend are going to start a life together somewhere else. And turned and left with him.
I woke up having a panic attack. I really wanted to call LO just to hear her voice. But even though I was home sick I found an excuse to call another co-worker asking her a work related question and nonchalantly asking if she had heard from LO, who was still where she is at and not moving. Shew!
Thank you Lovisa. I definitely need tough love rather than enabling right now. I appreciate you.
A couple of things you said stood out to me:
“Yes, when she is thinking clearly, she wants to have distance from you.”
I believe this is true. And when I’m thinking clearly, I want to distance myself from her (I’m just not thinking clearly very much of the time). It’s important for me to keep reminding myself that her desire to distance herself from me is NOT the same as her rejecting me. She is rejecting the situation, not rejecting me as a person. She’s made it explicitly clear that she has strong feelings for me (both emotional and sexual) but that she does not want to risk compromising her morals further, does not want to be complicit in hurting my wife and kids, and does not want to be stuck perpetually loving someone who is ultimately unavailable to give her what she needs and deserves. And I respect her for all of that! And reminding myself of that does make it somewhat less painful.
“Love is unselfish. What you two are doing is selfish. It feels like love, but I don’t think it is. I’m so sorry, I know that’s painful to hear.”
That’s something I’ve been struggling with a lot. I know for sure that my actions and feelings are selfish when it comes to my SO – this is all totally unfair to her. I struggle to decide for myself if I’m behaving selfishly toward LO or not. I think it’s a mix. I care about her immensely and want to make her happy so badly. When she says stuff like “when you smile at me, it’s like all the bad stuff in my life is lifted off me and it just makes me feel really good” or “I get teary eyed from how good you are to me”, that kind of stuff, especially knowing what a hard life she’s had and how little love she’s been given by the other people in her life, really really makes me want to keep trying to do stuff to make her happy and feel loved. I want to show her that she’s loved and convince her that she’s lovable and valuable (two things that she struggles to believe about herself). From this perspective, it doesn’t feel selfish. But I also know that I’m getting a lot out of all these interactions with her. Making her happy, and having her express that to me, is my drug. So maybe at the end of the day, even though my behavior toward her might seem selfless, it actually is selfish at the heart of it
I do think that in an alternate universe where we were both available to each other, we really could have a genuinely loving relationship that was not selfish at the core. But of course, we live in the real world, so everything has to be interpreted in the context of the fact that I’m married, so I just can’t legitimately be her source of romantic love and emotional support, nor can she by mine.
Thanks as always for pushing me to think harder about my motivations and feelings
Lost in Space, you are very welcome. I love that you are so open. I learn new things from you. You did a great job of processing your thoughts. Your thinking brain has this situation figured out and recognizes the best path forward. Unfortunately, your limerent brain is strong and often takes over. I think you have a tough road ahead. I am glad that you don’t have to make this journey alone. You have your therapist and the LwL community to encourage you forward.
I’ve spent a week enforcing LC with my LO co-worker. Discussed this with my counselor, and she offered this piece of advice for others who may be trying the same thing. Telling your LO that you don’t want to talk about yourself is intimate – you’re admitting the relationship is inappropriate and suggesting you have feelings for them. (My counselor is very concerned about potential fallout from the LO – is she going to complain to human resources when I withdraw? Could this damage my reputation and job trajectory?)
Worked on the LC and new boundaries. It worked OK, mostly because LO was caught into another crisis, which is keeping her very busy. She tried to engage on something personal – snarky comment about life in general in a Teams IM, but I didn’t reply. Gotta admit, when I saw that comment, the dopamine hit happened. “She’s thinking of me!” But I held firm and didn’t reply. Still bothersome that I could feel that emotional surge happening, and was thinking “Maybe I need to drop these boundaries and then everything will feel good again!” I know, I know, it’s like an alcoholic thinking one more beer won’t hurt.
As I struggle with LC, I’m busy looking at LO’s flaws, and one that’s come out is that her ambitions exceed her ability. I see two versions of her – the introverted, snarky one who’s decent and kind, and the ambitious one. The second one disturbs me; she wants to make it to the highest levels so “she can make all the decisions.” Personally, I find the overly ambitious troubling. They typically have no trouble stepping on others to ascend to their “rightful” place in the hierarchy. I’ve been one of those trod upon, and seen plenty of others get stepped on by they overly-ambitious. I’m not saying she’s one of these people, and I think there’s a genuine human being in there, but I worry that her ambitions will override that. She’s only 36, and I hope she can grow out of this, but ultimately that’s not my problem.
I say her ambitions exceed her ability because she’s just not very good dealing with people that she doesn’t like. She frequently cuts them off, even though they’re at her level. If they’re not useful to her at the moment, she’s not very interested in them as human beings at all. One of the things that’s been bugging me the whole time is what is she getting out of this? I’ve asked her this point blank, and I get that she respects and admires me, and feels like she can really talk honestly to me. I’m beginning to wonder if I’m just a convenient ego boost for her. When she feels down, just give me an IM or a call and I’ll lift her spirits. She’s married and has other friends. Why am I the ego booster? Shouldn’t they be doing that for her?
I’ve been discussing the LO with my wife. I haven’t disclosed the attraction. Wife already knew that LO was a close friend, and at one point I described her as a “work wife.” Been discussing LO’s negative aspects instead now, and how they’re driving me crazy. Fridays, I work from home, and had a call with the LO. Home office is down the hall from our bedroom. After call with LO, I went to chat with wife because I was frustrated and annoyed. Wife said “You were talking with [LO], weren’t you.” “Yes, how did you know?” “You had that exasperated, I just want to get this over with, tone in your voice”. I didn’t think I was that bad, but if my wife could hear the caution in my voice down the hall, I must have been blatant. On the other hand, the wife knows me and my moods better than anyone else.
Also spoke extensively to my supervisor about the LO. Not the attraction, of course, but that I’m concerned that she’s a little, well, sociopathic. Boss is the type to let people learn things on their own, rather than tell them, so he said he noticed the same behavior. If I ask him to take me off the project with LO only a couple months after joining, especially for personal reasons, it’ll blow back on all three of us (LO, me, and boss). To head off any upset LO repercussions, I explained to boss that I was close friends with LO, but I’m trying to put some distance between us, keeping things professional and not being personal with her. The boss’ advice was to “stay on the periphery” with the LO, others have noticed some of this behavior.
So the LO’s luster is fading, yet I can’t find it in me to hate her, and I still want to be her friend. Crazy, right? I know our host is saying it’s impossible, and his wisdom is slowly sinking in, but I still find myself missing the friendship. Oddly enough, this whole experience has brought me closer to my wife, so I’m opening up more to her, especially about my inner feelings. There was no EA; I never told the LO anything I hadn’t told the wife, but I’m being freer telling my wife what I’m thinking, which has been good for our marriage.
I’m really struggling with what I believe is limerence, and I’d like some advice and perspective from fellow limerants who may have experienced something similar.
My LO and I work together. She’s younger than me, and we’re both in relationships. I have a young child, whom I adore, but my relationship is, if I’m honest, unhappy. My LO has been with their partner forever, and, truthfully, I know almost nothing about how happy they are.
We’ve worked together for over two years, and always been friendly, but never complicated. About six months ago, however, we started working in an office together for the first time since lockdown. This meant more time together and more social events. We got on really well. This alone would have been manageable: we enjoyed each other’s company, but I never got the sense she was romantically interested.
However, around the same time I started using a specific social media platform for work. It’s a platform she uses a lot, and, before long, she started messaging me out of work. At first it was sporadic, but when I engaged it became more frequent. It began with shared videos, then gradually became more conversational.
Fast forward a few months, and now we speak out of work most days, sometimes back and forth all evening. The conversation is never explicitly flirtatious or personal. Instead, it’s lots of in-jokes, shared memes, and common interests. The conversation continues even when she’s on holiday with her other half. We tend to spend all evening together when we have work social events, but there has never been anything physical apart from flirting and proximity. There are other signs I’d consider explicitly romantic if the circumstances were different: pet names, gifts, teasing, mirroring of language and interests.
I cannot stop thinking about her. She’s a constant presence in my life, and the nature of our communication means that she’s always there and there’s always something to share. Honestly, it’s tearing me apart. I’m unhappy in my home life and unable to see a way out that isn’t horrible and damaging, and I can no longer tell how much of that is because of the constant spectre of this relationship. I see her every day and usually speak to her on the days I don’t. Everything reminds me of her. She’s often the last thing I think about when I go to sleep and the first thing I think of when I wake up. I have experienced what I presume is limerence before, but it’s always led to relationships. This is the first time I’ve felt it where I’m scared that it’ll go nowhere, and I’ve perhaps felt this kind of connection four or five times in my life.
I love being a father and I don’t want to ruin my child’s life on a whim. But I can’t cope any more. I want to go no contact, but she’s also a friend I speak to every day; without context or a conversation, it seems like a cruel, erratic thing to do to her. And I’m scared to disclose because we work together and I’m a senior member of staff. I’m speaking to a therapist about all this, but right now progress feels impossible. Any advice would be amazing.
Pix – i feel your hurt. My story is somewhere on this thread – but basically my LO is my subordinate at work and also has been driving me crazy.
Here are my thoughts:
1) the highs with LO are so high, but everytime the low thereafter is just as low – i have come to realise that the lows are too painful for me to handle
2) i have been going for councelling to specifically work on my marriage and to lesson the depressive no hope feelings – its has helped
3) i try to give LO as little chance as possible of letting me down. This means restraining from unnecessary questions or expecting anything from her. Many times i will not msg her as I dont want the disappointment of a slow or poor response.
4) i am trying to constrain my time with her as much as possible – only essential work time. I have not yet managed to take personal topics of our discussions – but they have reduced recently.
5) you need to remember that she may not (and probably does not) feel the same way you do (and may experience no pain or lows). Realise that you may be the only one suffering. If she was not interested in you at all what would you do?
6) take it one day at a time – do anything that can take your mind off her and consider slowing down or ending the after work chats.
Good luck – like all of us it looks like you are going to need it
Thanks Vee, this is useful to read. Truthfully, the temptation to get a definitive answer about the nature of her interest is almost overwhelming. I feel like if I knew it was a platonic thing I’d find it easier to dial back.
I’ve spoken to loads of my female friends for a read on how unusual they think her behaviour is. Most of them think it is. But I’m aware that might be my brain telling me what I want to hear!
Vee…how are things going these days?
Speedwagon – thanks for asking. I has been another roller coaster few weeks.
Reading your post on the other thread is so similar to what happened to me. LO and I had some alone time on a work trip and while it was great to connect with her (there was nothing romantic and not even much personal discussion) the lows after were so bad.
I also agree that trying to avoid one on one time outside of the normal work setting is helpful.
I keep seeing how she is fine to spend time with me but clearly has no interest which i tell myself everyday.
I think i have done well not to disclose things like how much i think about her or how attracted or addicted i am to her. Each time i learn something new about her its hard not to see something that reminds me of her when i am not around her. I also had an opportunity when she was talking to me about her ex to tell her how wonderful she is and i resisted which i thought was progress. I think she has no clue about how i truly feel about her which i imagine is a positive in how my actions have been perceived. But inside i do keep having to grapple with this voice that is desperately wanting to tell her. I am restraining it for now – thanks mainly to this blog and everyones advice.
The therepy sessions have been helpful – i dont have so many complete breakdowns anymore. I have been focussing on improving my relationship with SO but i have been finding it difficult to enjoy any moments when LO is not there or present. I keep thinking about what LO would do or say and i know that is not great.
I have a few weeks coming up of low to no contact which i think is going to be very hard for me after how much time i have had with LO for work purposes over the last few weeks.
I am struggling now with figuring out where helping LO from a work perspective is normal or where i am helping beyond normal because of how i feel about her. Last week i cancelled a meeting with her because i wanted to reduce contact but then i was worried that she needed that time to get guidance on her work. Its such a painful situation and i feel so conflicted all the time trying to be purposeful and authentic but at the same time not crossing a line.
I hope i am doing the right thing.
Thanks for the update, Vee. I understand the difficult balance between needing to legitimately help LO out with work, and then feeling like you are manufacturing help just to spend time with her. I did the same all the time. What needed to be maybe 10 minutes of collaboration time I would extend into 30 minutes to sometimes an hour. Or I would manufacturer collaboration that in reality did not really need to happen just to be with her.
Here is where I found my balance. I knew that everyday I wanted some interaction time with LO so I did not shy away from it. I embraced it and let myself have just enough that my mood stayed somewhat level. But I also knew not to go overboard and it was through months of trial and error, that I knew where the line might be. So I let myself go to the line but then tried to stay disciplined not to cross it. So about 20-30 minutes of face to face, one on one, collaboration with LO each day helps keep my mood regulated but does not send me into depressive lows later. It is also not beyond reason to other workers to spend that time with LO helping her so it does not seem odd in the office.
My advice for you would be to find your balance with LO. What is the amount of time you like to spend to get a little dose of connection with her and what is too much time that might send you into depressive lows later.
I found that over time the little bit of in office collaboration felt routine, normalized, and did not cause me distress later. But, any alone time with her that goes beyond that, especially outings that have us in a car together for periods of time, do cause me distress later. So I look to eliminate the trigger of distress and eliminate those longer alone times.
Everyday feels like balancing in the middle of a see-saw. I am constantly shifting to manage myself with LO. Not enough connection…too much connection…it takes effort. But the highs aren’t high and the lows aren’t low and I can function well and that is the best I can do for myself right now. Hopefully one day LE just fades completely or she moves on and I go full NC.
For now management of LE distress is name of the game.
Best of luck…I’m pulling for you.
Speedwagon (and everyone else following this…) – today was really hard.
I have been discussing my marriage issues with SO – she feels like i am no longer there for her and that things have changed. She feels i am not as happy around her. It is true – and i admitted that is the case. I dont feel happy and things have become so difficult. Nothing gives me the emotional satisfaction i am looking for. Ending everything with SO has been crossing my mind for the first time (the implications would be so huge and kids are involved). What a mess.
LO and I have just been dealing with normal work issues and she still has no clue on how i feel. Speedwagon – i have been considering partial disclosure. I know logically what terrible idea this is. I have read the do not disclose article so many times but i am running out of ideas on how to end this madness. Maybe hearing first hand from her how she has no interest will kill the limerence.
I have also been thinking of confiding about my SO issues to LO (i know – another horrible idea). But the craving of bonding with her is so strong.
I believe (hope) i will resist the temptation to disclose and maybe even resist confiding in LO. Would be great to hear thoughts from anyone on if this is going to help.
It has been so hard dealing with this.
Vee – thanks for posting here before doing anything you can’t take back. I empathize with your feelings 100%. I understand very much how you’re feeling, and I know how strong the impulses are. That said… don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it. Don’t disclose your feelings to LO. Don’t share your marital problems with LO. Please don’t do it
Right now you’re still in control of your own life. Once you disclose, you’re handing over control of everything in your life to another person that you really don’t know all that well. Yes, she might end up just telling you that you’re sweet but she doesn’t have any romantic feelings for you, and that may or may not help your limerence and it may or may not help you return your focus to SO. Or… LO might file a sexual harassment complaint against you. Or she might tell everyone in the workplace. Or she might feel so uncomfortable that she has to quit her job. Or she might tell your wife.
Or… she might return your feelings and you might actually end up in an affair with her. And I’d be willing to bet (because I felt the same way a few months ago) that the prospect of an affair with LO sounds pretty great at some level. In some part of your brain, it sounds like the best thing ever. And it might be kinda great for the first little while, except that all the highs and lows you’re already experiencing will be magnified 100x. But all the research shows that in the long run, affairs almost never end well or lead to lasting happiness. I think something like 3-5% of people actually end up in a happy long term relationship with their affair partner. Diving into something like that is just not a path to happiness or wellness
I realize now how incredibly lucky I got when I disclosed to LO. I realize now how little I actually knew her then, and how I was interacting with an idealized version of her. I felt 100% sure that it was safe to disclose to her, that I could essentially trust her with my life. As I got to know her better later, I discovered that she is much more broken and emotionally unstable than I ever imagined. Fortunately she does have a really strong moral compass and she didn’t do anything to harm me, either by lashing out and wrecking my career or marriage out of anger, or by sabotaging my marriage to try to have me for herself. She certainly could have done either of those things – I willingly gave her that power over me. At the time I disclosed I truly had no idea where it would lead, and in that frame of mind I truly felt like I didn’t care, and that’s actually a really scary thought
Please… work on your relationship with SO and with yourself. Find a good couples counselor if you haven’t already. Find a good individual therapist for yourself if you haven’t already. Try to really figure out why you’re so unhappy in your marriage and in your life. That’s the process I’m engaged in right now. Maybe you’ll end up resuscitating your marriage, or maybe you and SO will eventually decide it’s best for both of you to end it. But please don’t let your limerent brain trick you into thinking that escalating things with LO will make anything better, because there’s so little chance that it actually will, and so great of a chance that things could go terribly wrong and a lot of people could be badly hurt
Oh Vee, my heart goes out to you. I just got off the phone with my dad before reading your post. He is pleased that I can understand the reason he left my mom 40 years ago. My mom is difficult. I have been taking care of her since October, she lived with us until a few days ago when she went to live with my brother. My dad likes that I can see how hard it was for him to live with her. True, I can see it, but that always leads me to the next thought, “Why did you leave your children with her when you thought she was crazy?” I hope that if your wife is a reasonably decent person that you will try to improve things at home. Your presence is invaluable to your children. I can’t emphasize enough how important you are to your kids. I don’t know where you are in your marriage, but things get better after the first kid leaves home.
As far as disclosure, I understand the temptation to disclose. You are getting ready to dip your feet into EA territory when you disclose the struggles you are experiencing with your wife. Your LO is naive to the realities of married life and she will side with you. She will not be helpful. Please talk to someone else. It is a very bad idea to speak poorly of your wife to an attractive female.
And please don’t disclose your feelings to LO. Nothing good will come of it. Speedwagon’s situation is probably the ideal outcome of disclosing to a work-LO, but he is still suffering. Disclosure always complicates the relationship and LOs are unpredictable after disclosure.
If you want to talk about the struggles you’re having at home, I am all ears. Just don’t talk about it with LO.
Oh and I am pretty sure that my dad had limerence for my first step-mom. She confessed to my mom that she seduced my dad on purpose because she thought he would be a good husband and father. She was a very beautiful co-worker who was 10 years younger than my dad. That marriage didn’t last and my dad regrets marrying her. He wishes he had focused on single parenting after he divorced my mom. His current wife (4th marriage) is amazing! Our family loves her so much. But my dad made a lot of mistakes along the way to get to where he is.
Good luck!
Vee
I read your post earlier and wanted to ponder on it before I made a reply. Then when I came back and LiS had already replied. I agree with him about disclosing limerence to LO.
My unsolicited advice if you choose to continue to read ….
Think about instead of disclosure to LO, disclose to your wife. I’ll give you a shortened version of my story on disclosure. Long before found limerence through this site in January, members of my family from my behavior thought that anything from an EA to PA was happening. Even if the EA was one sided and not mutual. So when I discovered limerence I decided I wanted to tell her about it in hopes that an understanding of my behavior would help us salvage our marriage.
I printed some of Dr L’s posts here he wrote to help the spouse of a limerent. And some of the basics of the neurology and psychology of limerence. Let’s just say the first few conversations didn’t go well. If they became heated I would usually pull back. We probably had 3-4 conversations about it usually brought up by negative things; like me talking about LO in my sleep or a song I would be singing around the house because she knew it reminded me of LO. “I hate that song! I hate you singing that song!” Behavior quite understandable for her position in this relationship. And I didn’t type that trying to say she was yelling at me, just firmly told me how that hurt her.
About a week or so, she texts me this very weird question with no context. I answered as honestly as I could with knowing why she was asking me this question. Then she told me that she had finally read the articles of Dr L’s I printed and wanted to have a talk about it. Which I was of course okay with.
Since then we have had 3-4 more very calm, honest and productive conversations about my limerence and LO. My wife has assured me that she is willing to work through this and preserve our marriage if I will be honest and help her understand how this woman got in my head and still is. All of which, these conversations, she has initiated herself. So things are slowly improving between us.
But it was a long road. If you’d asked my opinion on disclosure to a spouse back in January you would have got a very different take on it than you are right now. I can’t say how yours might pan out if you do choose to tell your wife. But I can tell you now, I am so glad I did and I feel like it will come out for the better for us than if I had kept it to myself.
Hoping for the best for you Vee.
“and I see love hungry people
trying their best to survive
when right there in their hands is a dying romance
and they’re not even trying keep it alive”
What’s Forever For — Micheal Murphy
https://youtu.be/suctMm61b50
Yikes Pix, that sounds like an emotional affair to me. I’m so sorry, but that is a lot of contact for a friendship. Does your SO know? Does her SO know? It sounds like she is getting some emotional intimacy needs met through you.
If I had a magic wand, you would become boring to LO and you would work on your marriage. Of course I am assuming that your SO isn’t abusing you or your kids. Marriages are worth saving. There is a great resource on YouTube called Marriage Helper. They have a lot of great videos and some of them even address limerence.
Based on what you shared, I have a suspicion that I know what your LO is thinking. Trust me when I say that you are better off not knowing what she thinks of you. Let go of that desire. That knowledge will not help.
If you choose to continue with things the way they are, you might want to consider a few things.
1. What boundaries are you unwilling to cross?
2. Are you willing to be a friend to her in the same way that your relationship functions right now?
3. How committed are you to marriage?
I am very concerned about your relationship with LO because the frequency of contact is so high. Please keep posting on this site. I think you need to process what is happening. I am glad you are seeing a therapist. That is good news!
We have a commentator who would be helpful to you, I think. Hopefully, @Lost in Space sees your story and comments. I think his situation is comparable, but he is further in the process. You may want to read his past comments.
Good luck!
Hi Pix, welcome to the club. I took am limerent for my coworker (actually my employee!) who is 13 years younger than me and married also. But, I am on the backside of my worst days. Part of this is due to time, LwL, and I had a disclosure with my LO that took away uncertainty. I still struggle with the passion and desire and intrusive thoughts for her but they no longer are much distress to me.
Unlike you, I have a fantastic SO that I love and have leaned into during this time. Unlike you, my LO is pretty aloof, sometimes acts like she is attracted to me and other times does not. She never really pursued me at all but also played the game with me when I pursued her. It all hit a crescendo around Christmas time with a lot of texting off hours and led to my disclosure shortly after. Turns out she only felt friendship.
DR L has some blogs of gradually pulling back…don’t go LC all at once. Just pull back little bits at a time. Also, it sounds like you need to deal with your marriage independent of LO. There are some blogs here about that too.
And I agree, it sounds like you are in a full blown EA. That is not going to be easy to unravel. Baby steps.
The main thing I have learned is to make my interactions with LO routine and predictable and don’t set my self up for a let down. We don’t text anymore either. I don’t put myself in a position to expect anything from LO. This has served me well to keep from having the low lows. But I also don’t get much of a high anymore either. Just stable emotions that I can deal with day in day out.
My story is littered in real time all over the rescue fantasy blog and New years Purpose blog.
Thanks for sharing Pix, your situation has some similarity with mine. Though in my case, the contact is not much, so I am trying to dial back. I guess no contact is not an option in your case, minimizing contact, or keeping it professional (as much as possible) would be the next best bet. I have found that reduced contact definitely helps the situation. I also agree that minimizing expectations from LO would be very useful, though that is easier said than done, but definitely worth a shot. The whole situation is very painful, but I am working on managing the thoughts in my head. It seems I have made some small progress in this regard. This, apart from engaging in some hobby (working out, running) and connecting with family and friends would help. All the best.
Welcome, Pix. I’m sorry you’re in pain. But you’re among friends here, and, as you can gather, your story shares lots os similarities with a few of us here. Speedy, Vix, and Lovisa have good advice for you here. My story is here https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-year-purpose/
and in a few other places on the blog) except I thankfully do not have to see my LO very often for work. It’s a total mess, though, and if I could have my chance again I would not declare (I didn’t mention limerence, but I told him I felt an undeniable attraction and connection with him). Believe me when I tell you how difficult it is to not declare – I felt like I literally could not hold it in any longer. But the relationship just gets too fraught and the pain I have felt for these last 9 months since LO pulled away in an abrupt and careless manner is just excruciating. I wish I had found this site sooner and extricated myself before it was too late.
Carefully staged, very subtle (so no-one, including your LO, is the wiser as to what might be going on) withdrawal is the key, here, I think. That means dialing back conversation to polite work-only interactions, no outside messaging, and therapy for yourself and your marriage. Please do keep posting and take care.
“Carefully staged, very subtle (so no-one, including your LO, is the wiser as to what might be going on) withdrawal is the key, here, I think. That means dialling back conversation to polite work-only interactions, no outside messaging”
I sit on the other side of this dynamic and believe my boss LO did this to me. However subtle you are, LO WILL perceive the rejection. Staged withdrawal has felt like a slow, uncontrollable, uncertain, is-he-or-isn’t-he, addiction enhancing form of torture… spread over a year or more. Ripping that plaster off quickly, while painful, would have been so much easier to bear and would have ended my LE quickly.
I personally favour frank, open, honesty in my dealings but I acknowledge that this has its own risks and challenges, especially in work situations like these. There is no easy solution, some things just take time to work there way out of your system.
Much good advice given above.
Wishing you well.
You know what, Allie? You’re so right here now I think about it. In one sense, my LO kind of did that to me (pulled away without a conversation) and it has caused 90% of my pain (the other 10% was that it ended at all). I think the contradiction, and why I recommended a strategy to Pix that I have suffered hugely from myself, lies in the fact that there has been declaration/some reciprocation in my case, so the rejection is obvious. But in Vix’s case, there has been no declaration, and no sure sign of reciprocation: in that case, I am worried about the complications of an overt conversation about why Vix is pulling away (i.e., a declaration of sorts). And by “complications” I mean a possible sexual harassment lawsuit if his LO does not feel similarly and/or hasn’t noticed the LE from Vix’s side. (My LE does not involve a direct coworker, let alone a supervisor/underling relationship, although for sure there are ethical questions about a consultant having a PA with a client).
But I want to think about Allie’s words more to clarify my own feelings. (and sorry to hear your LO is pulling away/has moved on, Allie – notwithstanding the fact you say nothing was going to happen, it is so so so painful when it “ends”).
The problem with ripping that NC/LC bandaid off is you have to pretty much disclose to do so. That can be a problem
Allie, what do you think about going “gray rock?” What if Pix becomes boring to his LO? Do you think it could fizzle out?
Try and put them off you.. yup that seems slightly better to me. But when you are close to someone, they will realise when you are behaving off with them. And they will take it personally.
All these techniques feel like a subtle form of gaslighting to me. Works only for the benefit of the person doing them, always to the detriment of the person having it done to them.
Of course, when you are saving yourself from deep limerent suffering, saving your marriage/family/etc, the ends may justify the means. But we should never kid ourselves that behaving this way is harmless.
I am now 3 weeks into NC(not by choice lol) and feel pretty good generally. There are still days at work that I get a little down but nothing like the wild swings of our day to day interactions. I actually find work quite a bit more boring now. There is nothing to really look forward to. I miss the heartfelt conversations.
Neither one of us has reached out since our last time together helping her load her stuff to move. Probably better that way.
She does pop into my dreams from time to time and I still think about her from time to time. If it is possible it seems like LC or NC is healthy. It hurts like hell at first but I feel fairly normal again now.
That is good news, Rufio! Thanks for the update. It’s good to see you.
Thanks all. I agree that NC is a good option. However, in my case, NC is not a choice. Any advise on how one can manage the interactions with LO if NC is not an option would be really appreciated. Basically need to find a way to get out of the highs and lows owing to warm and aloof LO behavior.
I honestly never found a way when I saw her every day. I would have moments but ultimately my stomach jumped every time I saw her. My situation was a bit different though as well because I knew she was leaving. Your best bet is to limit contact as much as possible and really focus on watching your thoughts. Tell yourself the truth if you can. I hope things improve!
Thanks Rufio! In some sense, things are improving. The highs are still high, but the lows seem to not be as bad as they were, and I seem to be able to manage them better. I do have a tendency to get all fidgety around LO, so I do make efforts to keep contact as formal as possible — be firm, confident and formal, easier said that done right. Perhaps the LE is running its course, and things will look up, not totally perfect, but more manageable. Thanks again.
I’m in your situation AN. My LO is my employee and I have to collaborate with her every day at our office. I can’t go NC.
Here is my deal…I gave up trying to “get over” her and instead manage the emotions by following some rules. My rules include routine everyday interactions that don’t really vary. I have become accustomed to them and they don’t send me on euphoric highs so I also don’t get depressive lows. I try not to go anywhere with her, I don’t text or phone call with her, I just interact with her inside the walls of the office mostly around other people. Our interactions are warm, but routine.
My romantic desire for her is still there, but it does not cause me much distress operating under my rules. I can handle it. My hope is over time the limerence fades away. It’s already a lot better than 6 months ago.
Also, do not do anything that puts relational expectations on her. This leads to disappointment when she does not respond how you prefer. Just keep things routine and in your control and give it time. Took me a good few months before I started to feel better.
Good luck!
Thanks Speedwagon! Yeah, not being able to go NC does have its challenge, doesn’t it. My LO interactions are also quite routine, so I know beforehand how they are going to play out. Hopefully, I will become accustomed to them like you. I must say that I am managing them a bit better than before, but still some ways to go. Hoping it gets better with time. Completely agree that not having / minimizing any sort of expectation from LO is a good way to go so as to avoid disappointment later. Am trying to be as casual about the LE as I can. Appreciate the advice.
Hey everyone, I’ve been away from the website for a few weeks but just wanted to check in again. I’ve been reading through the postings here for the last couple weeks and it was good to catch up with all of your lives – sounds like you’re all continuing fighting the good fight
I think last time I posted was a little over a month ago, when things got really emotional and heated with LO to the point where we were both kind of entertaining the thought of letting our relationship go from EA to PA. Since that time…
– She pretty much cut off all contact with me for about 3 weeks – I sent her a text like once a week during that time just to check in but otherwise left her alone. She kept telling me some variation of “it’s not you, it’s me”, saying that she was really stressed about other stuff in her life and didn’t have the energy to talk with me. I strongly suspect that she was intentionally going NC to protect both of us, which I respect, but it would have caused a lot less hurt and confusion for me if she could have just told me that – I’d say for anyone who is already post-disclosure, it would be much kinder to tell your LO that you’re going NC and why, rather than just cut off contact without warning or explanation (if you’re in a situation where you haven’t and can’t disclose, then obviously it’s a lot harder)
– About 3 weeks ago we ended up in the elevator together with a few other people in the morning before work. We briefly made eye contact and then she looked away. By the time we made it to our floor, she was clearly sobbing although she tried to hide it. I sent her a text after that asking how she was doing, and then she came to my office later to visit in person for a few minutes – the first time we’d actually been alone together since January. We ended up smiling at each other awkwardly for a few minutes, not discussing anything of substance and then she left. We haven’t been alone together again since then
– We’ve had a few pretty frank and emotional texting sessions since then – she told me once that she doesn’t see any point in us continuing a relationship because it can’t go anywhere, and it’s been causing her a lot of anxiety because it’s wrong, and a lot of sadness because she knows it can’t be forever. But then other times she tells me that she just feels so good talking to me and knowing that I care about her, and that she doesn’t want to completely end our relationship
– One day a couple of weeks ago she texted me out of the blue asking me if I would do psychedelic mushrooms with her, which shocked the heck out of me because it was such a departure for her previous desire to distance herself from me. Now she wanted to sneak off to use mind-altering substances together? I knew she’d been interested in trying them for a long time because of all the research about how they can treat depression, and that day told me that she wanted to do them with me because “it feels safe with you”. Man that felt good to hear, and I was really tempted, even though it would have been a major escalation in our relationship that definitely could have lead to serious consequences with SO… fortunately we came to our senses a few days later and agreed that this was actually a pretty bad idea and we won’t do it
– I’ve been desperately wanting to to talk with her for real, not texting or brief interactions at work, just for understanding or closure or something, but she’s been steadfastly avoiding an actual conversation – the last few times I’ve texted her to ask if we could talk, she just didn’t respond at all (which has hurt a lot)
And finally today, she told me by text that she did decide for sure to go back to school full time, and will be leaving our workplace in 2-3 weeks. I feel equal parts relieved and heartbroken. I’m crushed by the thought of never seeing her or hearing her voice again, but at the same time I know that this is the only way to get my sanity back – especially recently when the pain to pleasure ratio in our relationship has been highly skewed towards pain.
She said she’d talk with me on the phone tomorrow – I hope she’s actually willing to. I just want to spend a bit of time clearing the air about a few things that happened over the past month, and to talk about how we want to play things for the last few weeks she’s here. Ultimately my goal is that we can go our separate ways with good feelings for each other intact – I want her to remember me as someone who cared about her deeply, loved her for who she truly is, and always wanted the best for her, and as someone who had a positive impact on her life overall despite the pain and heartbreak – so my goal for the next couple of weeks will be to try to engineer that kind of ending (while also avoiding falling into any traps like thinking it would be a good idea to kiss her just once before she leaves…)
Thanks for the update. Sounds like such a a wild ride with you and LO. Makes my relationship with LO seem very very boring, which on one hand is how I need it to be but on the other it is hard not to want the drama to happen. The drama is fun and exciting. You have plenty to go around.
Do you think once she leaves you will be able to go NC or will that fact that she is gone from your place of work remove a professional barrier and you both fall deeper even still? What’s your plan with her once she leaves?
Thanks Speedwagon. A few months ago the drama was fun and exciting. Every day felt amazing for the first couple of months, and then for a couple more months the pleasure and pain were about 50/50. Now there are occasional flashes of fun and excitement but they’re super rare, and mostly it’s just pain and confusion and depression and emptiness. I’m honestly really glad she’s leaving – I’m so tired of it all and I’d actually hate to be in your situation with no end in sight.
I don’t think things will escalate in the future – our barriers to consummation have been all about our relationships with our SOs, not about professional barriers, so that won’t change. I suspect that after she leaves we might chat a couple times and then she’ll just ghost me and that’ll be that. I could be wrong but that seems like the most likely thing and probably the best outcome honestly. Maybe it’ll end in a way where I could text her a few months later and we could catch up a bit without all the feelings – that might be nice. We’ll see… but at this point I’m pretty much accepting that it’s over and while I really miss the good feelings we used to provide for each other, it just seems like there’s no way that’s ever coming back and honestly that’s for the best (since I do really want to stay married and not hurt my SO)
Honestly I’m worried about myself falling into another LE. The feeling of falling in love with someone and her falling in love with me was incredible. Nothing else in my life can come close to matching that feeling in terms of intensity and excitement. I want to feel that way again. I’m having trouble really enjoying anything right now, feel like I’m just going through the motions. It’s like all the colors in my life are muted, my senses are dulled. And it really sucks because my life is good, the people close to me in my real life are actually pretty great, but I just feel bored, restless and empty. I’m sure my neurotransmitters are all screwed up and deficient. Maybe I should try an antidepressant. Maybe I just need to continue therapy and lean into my SO and family and keep giving it time. I don’t know. I wish there was a way to get limerent for my SO. That would be the best thing. I love her but it’s a comfortable love, not an exciting love. How can I get myself to just be content with comfortable love and not crave exciting, passionate love?
” The feeling of falling in love with someone and her falling in love with me was incredible. Nothing else in my life can come close to matching that feeling in terms of intensity and excitement.”
Yeah nothing beats that feeling does it. I try to convince myself that it is not real but it was real once and had we had been single, we would have been happy. Letting go is so hard. But when you come out of the other side you will feel better. Clearer headed, more engaged and motivated in all other areas of your life, happier within your important relationships. More present.
Wishing you well.
“I want her to remember me as someone who cared about her deeply, loved her for who she truly is, and always wanted the best for her, and as someone who had a positive impact on her life overall despite the pain and heartbreak – so my goal for the next couple of weeks will be to try to engineer that kind of ending (while also avoiding falling into any traps like thinking it would be a good idea to kiss her just once before she leaves…)”
You can get a ton of mileage out of this! You can kill hours crafting the perfect goodbye. Even better, when she’s gone, you can ruminate on how you could have done it differently. You can run the gamut from “Casablanca” to “Gone With the Wind” and everything in between.
These might help…or not.
“Amore, Scusami [My Love, Forgive Me] – Jerry Vale (1967) “Baciami” is Italian for “kiss me.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E_gOodTNss
If you want to play it a little less over the top:
“Bye Bye Baby (Baby Goodbye)” – The Four Seasons (1965)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNBVJJoIpSI
But, stay away from the kiss.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/withdrawal-pains/#comment-2912
WRT the above link. The day my coworker left, she swung by my office to say goodbye. She gave me a hug and said she’d miss me. I told her that I’d miss her to. In all the years we worked together, it was the first time we actually touched.
I saw her one time after she left.
LE – thanks for the good suggestions as always! I’m definitely already devoting plenty of time and mental energy to imagining and rehearsing the perfect goodbye – I even bought her a little gift yesterday (nothing huge, just a sentimental thing that’ll mean something to both of us). I’m imagining lots of tears, outpourings of well wishes for each other, a nice sturdy hug but no kiss…
My fear is that she’ll skip out completely on seeing me on her last couple days at work – she has a tendency to just shut down and disappear when faced with overwhelming emotions. She’s a fearful-avoidant and I’m an anxious. She and I actually had a good discussion about that yesterday – I was able to recognize some of the times that I’ve just overwhelmed her with feelings she hasn’t been able to handle and I tried to apologize for that as well as I could, and she confirmed for me that the times she’s hurt me by ghosting me for various periods of time were a result of her not knowing how to handle overwhelming emotions so she just shuts down.
So I’m indulging in a lot of fantasizing about the perfect goodbye, while also preparing myself to accept that it might not happen at all – acceptance is the key word right now, remembering that it’s really not gonna matter much a year or two from now and life will go on either way
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_o_0nCdKk7E
Hi Lost in Space, thanks for the update. The situation with your LO sounds exhausting. I was stuck on one thought after reading your post…
Please don’t kiss her, please don’t kiss her, please don’t kiss her.
Kissing LO will cause emotional problems for both of you AND marriage problems for you. Please don’t escalate this thing.
Be strong and end the craziness. She is trying so hard to do the right thing, don’t make it harder on her.
Good luck and thanks for checking in.
Thanks Lovisa. Don’t worry, I have no intention of kissing her. If I couldn’t bring myself to actually do it 3-4 months ago when we were filled with lust and hormones and both just waiting for the other to make the first move, I’m certainly not gonna do it now when we’re just empty shells of sadness slogging through the final days of a dying relationship. She’d hate me for it, I’d hate myself for it, nothing good would come of it. I can’t even bring myself to properly fantasize about it anymore, definitely not going to actually do it in real life.
Funny thing – today is the 20 year anniversary of the first time I kissed SO. We barely knew each other, had talked like 2 times before, and then both got overcome and spent an entire night making out on my friend’s couch at a house party (which was super out of character for both of us). I walked her home the next morning and we were inseparable from then on. We moved in together like 2 months later. We were so passionate about each other for those first few years, it felt clear we’d found our soulmates and would be happy and in love forever. We always hoped we’d die together somehow because neither one of us wanted to live a day without the other. Nowadays we are still good friends and still love each other, but it’s a comfortable love, not exciting or passionate or consuming. I realized recently that I hardly ever think about her when we’re not together – I was reflecting the other day about how many countless hours I’ve spent thinking about LO and how rarely I think about SO… I think I just totally take her for granted and it’s so easy to just go through the motions. Any suggestions to make our love feel more exciting again?
It’s hard because she’s actually perfectly happy just being comfortable and has very little interest in things like excitement and passion, and it seems I crave those things quite a lot
“Nowadays we are still good friends and still love each other, but it’s a comfortable love, not exciting or passionate or consuming.”
Sounds like you have a really good marriage. Sadly I think we have to choose that OR excitement & passion but cannot have both. Bah!
I should also add that I really relate to the need for passion and excitement. I think sometimes we have to seek excitement outside of relationships.
I started learning to horse ride 2 years ago (at 50!) and now galloping country hacks and show jumping have become my passion in life. Plenty of excitement to be had doing something a bit risky!
Allie,
You’ve taken up riding?
My daughter took riding lessons for several years and I used to work with a woman who’s an equestrian in her off time. We went through 3 stables. Some barns are better fits than others. At one, I’d drop off my wife and daughter at the stable, my son and I would go to the golf course down the road, hit a bucket of golf balls, pick them up, and go to lunch. It was a fun family ritual.
From what little I saw and what my coworker told me, the “barn culture” is a world unto itself. Even my wife started getting into being a “horse mom.” It wasn’t pretty.
Riding has everything you’d want in a hobby. Exercise, discipline, time-consuming, and expensive. Are you considering buying your own horse? My coworker said that owning a horse was even a better money pit than owning a boat.
Some of those people were positively cutthroat.
As for hobbies, I took up the oboe at 58. One of the cats will jump on the bed when I practice. Everyone else closes their doors or leaves.
“Even my wife started getting into being a “horse mom.” It wasn’t pretty.”
He ha ha!
My daughter also rides and competes. She persuaded me to try it I became as utterly hooked as her. Am hoping to be good enough to compete in a show or two next summer… eeek! The only downside of the sport is having to hang around with young girls a lot.
Yup buying a horse or two is the dream. One day… sigh.
Thanks Allie! I think that’s exactly right – we can either spend our lives bouncing from relationship to relationship always chasing the new relationship high, or we can learn to appreciate comfortable love with one long term SO and use the security of that relationship as a base to explore other exciting opportunities that life has to offer. While nothing else might quite match the high of a new limerence relationship, I know that chasing that from person to person isn’t a sustainable way of living nor a road to real happiness.
Hi Allie and Lost in Space,
I want to address something, you both seem to agree that the excitement dwindles in marriage and you are left with “comfortable.” I disagree. Being with my SO is both comfortable and exciting for me. What we have is better than any feeling that I got from LO. I realize my limerence doesn’t make sense. I still can’t figure out why I had limerence in the first place, but I suspect it was because I was going through withdrawal from antidepressants and ADHD medication. I really don’t know, but that is my best guess. And then I distracted myself with LO3, using transference, but the limerence is so mild with LO3 that I question if I am limerent. LO1 was seducing me on purpose and I naively fell for it. Also, I have learned that I have a weakness: attractive men. Dang it! My SO is incredible, but I still might find myself attracted to another man regardless of how great I have it at home. I just have to watch my boundaries.
Lost in Space, you asked what you can do to spark your marriage? I can tell you some of the stuff my SO does that I love. I love to be pet so I lay in his lap and he pets me while he is watching TV. He also says “thank you” for little things like the chores. He takes me hiking, biking and running. Yesterday, I was so happy about Adam’s good news and I told SO about it. He snuggled me close and said, “Well maybe his wife thinks he is worth fighting for.” He looked at me in a way that implied he thinks I am worth fighting for. He also asked if Mrs. Adam put her wedding ring back on which is a great question and it shows that he listened when I told him that Adam was wearing his wife’s ring on a necklace. My SO still looks at me like I am Christmas morning. He will lose his train of thought if I come out of the shower in a towel. He’ll stare and say something like, “I am so lucky.” That kind of stuff keeps the flames burning. Those are just a few examples. I guess it all comes down to him convincing me that I am the center of his universe. Also, we like to try new adventures together (I am talking about wholesome recreational activities, but that statement applies to the bedroom, too). My SO refuses to look at anything pornographic. He leaves the room if an uncomfortable scene is on the screen. I made it okay for him to be curious, but he believes that if he sees other women in sexual ways, it will create a barrier between he and I. In 2018 an ecclesiastical leader encouraged the men of our church to avoid pornography because they “will never be able to get close to their wife because pornography will be a barrier.” My SO confessed to me that he had been using pornography, he apologized and took actions to quit. He says he hasn’t used it since then. I know he could be lying about not using pornography, but he doesn’t have to lie. I am very accepting and open minded about it. Every time we talk about it he says he doesn’t want to have anything preventing us from being close so he doesn’t use it. Also, the marriage helper guy says that by not using pornography, he is more turned on by his wife’s body than he would be if he used pornography. So maybe you could consider if you want to quit porn. I am not judging you either way. I am just listing things that seem to be working for us. Oh and maybe this is relevant, my SO is my only source of sexual satisfaction for the most part. I will rarely take matters into my own hands so I am highly motivated to keep things going well between us because I can survive 2 weeks max before sexual frustration takes it’s toll on me. I have rarely hit the 2-week mark since I married SO almost 25 years ago and every time it was because our kids were causing stress (dang kids… kidding!…kinda).
Allie, I love that you are riding horses. I used to ride horses with my grandfather. Many of my neighbors have horses, but our lot is barely under sized to have horse rights. We are thinking about getting goats because my SO and one of my daughters love goats. We have dogs and fish right now. I want a cat, but too many of us are allergic to cats, nuts.
Lost in Space, my LO3 does extreme sports to get his dopamine highs. He owns a residential addiction recovery program for teenage boys which he pours his life into as well. It’s quite remarkable. I noticed that when he takes his boys on trips, he pulls away from me and I think it is because he gets plenty of excitement on his trips. The trips are usually running races or motocross races, he also takes the boys on outdoor adventures. Some of his clients have never been hiking which blows my mind considering that we live near beautiful mountains. Maybe a new sport would be exciting for you. I love that your cat supports your oboe adventure. I can’t really blame the humans for walking away, lol. Thank you for promising not to kiss your LO.
I am rambling and my girls will be home soon. I’ll stop. Have a great day!
Lovisa, thanks for your thoughtful reply as well – so much helpful stuff there as always!
I think maybe it’s about perspective – I love all of the things that you listed, like cuddling with SO, petting her hair, giving each other back rubs, having long conversations, learning and listening to each other, trying new activities. All of that is great and fills me with happiness and contentment! But for me it just does not provide the same type of raw dopamine hit that interactions with LO provided. For me that’s the difference between comfortable love and exciting limerence. Dopamine vs serotonin. Contentment vs thrill. A tasty and nutritious home-cooked meal vs a couple lines of cocaine. I think I need to just work on maturing and continuing to find peace within myself so that I’m not chasing unhealthy thrills and highs and can focus on the deeper, more meaningful pleasures of daily life with SO.
The thing about how he looks at you when you get out of the shower really hit hard for me. I definitely used to look at my wife like that – watching her get out of the shower or get dressed in the morning really did feel like Christmas morning to me every day. Then she basically stopped caring about her attractiveness – gained 50lbs, lost her shape, started wearing baggy sweats around the house and making jokes about how great it is to be married and not have to worry about looking hot anymore. I feel shallow and crappy for saying it, but I’d be lying if I said that physical attractiveness isn’t important to me, and I really don’t know what to do about SO’s sustained and overt lack of interest in wanting to look sexy for me. Any suggestions?
And finally, I agree that I should give up pornography or at least try a good long break from it. I’ve definitely been using it more in recent weeks as an attempt at self-soothing, which is obviously a very temporary fix that doesn’t do anything good for my feelings of emptiness and discontent.
Ok, I’m actually going to phrase that more strongly. Instead of saying “I should give up pornography”, I’m saying “I will give up pornography for the next 30 days and will see if I feel better as a result”
Lost in Space, I have been pondering your question, but first…
Wow! I love what a goal-setter you are. I am looking forward to seeing how the 30- day pornography fast goes. I am so surprised and impressed with your commitment.
As far as exciting goes… I did something exciting with my SO today that was better than a LO dopamine hit. My 13-year-old invited us to her track meet and we ended up being the adults that measured the shot put distances. It was new and exciting for me. My daughter threw 3 feet further than any other girl and she out-threw most of the boys. Whoa, I had no idea that she was that good at it. Stuff like that is fun and exciting to me. It’s just an example.
Now, to answer your question… what can a man do when his wife’s weight gain diminishes his attraction? I can only attempt to answer this question. First, I will tell you that I was anorexic until about a year after I married so my perspective is skewed. Also, my SO gained approximately 10 pounds per year for the first few years of our marriage and I got quite alarmed watching it happen. There was nothing I could say that was helpful. I tried to “help” but my words were just hurtful and he still sometimes reminds me of stuff that I don’t remember saying that hurt his feelings. About four years ago, I sincerely stopped caring. By then my SO had gained more than 100 pounds since we married. I surrendered and decided that it wasn’t going to matter to me anymore. I know this is weird, but we have an obese pug who I love and it hit me that no matter how fat my pug gets, it won’t effect my love for him. I don’t know why, but it crossed over to my feelings for my SO and I genuinely love him the way he is. There are times when his weight bothers me, but it isn’t because of his appearance. When he has back pain or medical problems related to his weight, it bothers me. There are some hikes he can’t do with me and I am sad about it, but not too bothered by it. Let me tell you the only things that have worked. When we lived in the Caribbean for a few years, he didn’t gain one pound. That was big progress. I used to prepare big meals and stuff him as full as I could with lean meats, rice, beans and salad. We almost never ate processed food. I think the heat could have contributed, too. When you’re hot, food just doesn’t sound good. The other thing that seems to be working right now is that my SO feels threatened by my very physically fit LO. My SO has been on his own weight loss journey lately. He has been running, cycling, weight training and intermittent fasting. I encourage it, but he chose these things for himself. He also wants to be fit enough to do rim-to-rim at the Grand Canyon with me. I think he knows I will ask to do it with LO at some point and my SO doesn’t want to hold me back, but he definitely doesn’t want me to be alone for 24 miles with LO either. That seems to be his motivation. He says he is motivated because he is trying to win me back, aww.
As for weight loss for a female, I have been thinking about times when I gained weight. Other than pregnancy, I have never been more than 20 pounds overweight. While I was on antidepressants I was almost 20 pounds more than I am now. It’s the biggest I’ve ever been besides the day I delivered my daughter. The thing that helped me lose weight was quitting antidepressants, intermittent fasting and lots of exercise. I was surprised by how fast the weight fell off. I don’t think my SO could have said or done anything to help me lose weight. I already felt frustrated and hopeless. If he had said something, it just would have hurt. I’m coming up blank here. I don’t know if you can help your wife with weight loss. Maybe you can spark that sexy feeling in her with sincere compliments? I don’t know if you have been following Adam’s story, but he saw Mrs. Adam in a tank top and thought she looked hot, but didn’t say anything. If something like that happens, jump on it! Tell her she’s hot. It could spark something.
I’m sorry your SO isn’t trying to be sexy and she justifies it vocally. That would bother me, too. I feel sympathy for both of you.
I don’t think I was helpful, sorry. I’ll let you know if I think of anything else.
Thanks Lovisa! It’s always helpful to get your perspective on things.
You say that your SO’s weight gain doesn’t affect your love for him at all, and I believe that, because I feel the same about my SO – I love her deeply regardless of her weight. But on the other hand… you keep finding yourself limerent for fit and attractive men, and I keep getting limerent for fit and attractive women, so maybe even if a spouse’s weight doesn’t affect our love for them, it likely does affect feelings of sexual attraction that leave a void that we might be subconsciously looking to fill with another person? If your SO was taking great care of himself and looked great, do you think you’d have been less vulnerable to falling limerent for these other men?
That’s great that your SO is using your LO as motivation to get himself back in shape! He sounds like a really mentally strong guy to be able to use that feeling of competition as motivation to do something that’ll be good for himself. My SO unfortunately is the opposite – one of the biggest mistakes I ever made was to try to motivate her to get fit by comparing her to LO3 – that threw her into a tailspin and led to the worst fights of our marriage. In her case the feeling of competition was not a healthy motivator at all, and I certainly learned my lesson to never try that again.
Interesting thing about my current LO – her body is super sexy, just the perfect female body in my eyes. I don’t think it’s the main reason for my limerence with her, but I’m sure it played a role. Anyway, I always found myself admiring her body and sometimes making unfavorable comparisons to my SO, like “why does LO make the effort to look great for her cheating deadbeat SO, while my SO can’t make the effort for me?” Then a month or so ago, LO told me that the reason her body looks the way it does is that her SO has always controlled what she eats and doesn’t let her eat things that’ll make her get fat. Hearing that made me feel all sorts of things – sadness for her, rescue fantasies about her controlling SO, anger towards him mixed with guilt for myself for the times I’ve tried to control my SO’s eating (in much less overt ways, but I’m definitely not innocent)… it also made me think about how often men just look at a woman and see a sexy body without knowing any of the reasons why she looks that way – is it just intrinsic motivation to be her healthiest? Or is it something darker like insecurity, disordered eating, a controlling SO? That definitely got me thinking a lot about the role of visual attractiveness in our lives
Regarding my pornography goal… my addiction recovery group always ends with everyone making a SMART goal for the week – the goal is supposed to be specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and timely. And we’re supposed to use strong action words like “I will” rather than weak words like “I should” or “I’ll try to”. So that’s the framework I generally try to apply when making any sort of goals. Anyway, one day down and so far so good 😀
That is a lot of good information, Lost in Space. I don’t know where to start. I’ll start with your question. Do I think I would have less limerence for other men if my SO were more physically fit? No, my LO2 has a dad-bod, just like my SO. It’s the emotional connection that lures me in. My emotional intimacy needs were lacking when I became limerent for LO2. He is an old friend who I could always talk to, but this time I was vulnerable. Don’t get me wrong, he is an attractive man, but he isn’t especially fit like LO3. Also, I am certain that my interest in LO3 was also emotional. The physical is a very nice bonus, but not the main reason I like him. And I still question if I am limerent for LO3 or if it is just an attraction.
You are absolutely right to wonder why a beautiful woman puts so much effort into her appearance. Unless it looks genuinely natural, there is a story behind it. I have a friend who competed in triathlons for 10 years because her SO pushed it on her. She is married to a loving man now and she is trying to find a new motivation for exercising because her new SO won’t pressure her. When she found out that I was running, she asked odd questions about my husband, which now I know was due to her assessing if my passion for running was actually pressure from my SO. Some things look great on the surface, but it could be a sign of a problem. For example, I graduated with my Bachelor’s degree with a 4.0. I didn’t get one A-. That sounds impressive, which it is, but it is also a sign of perfectionism. I put a lot of effort into my classes, probably more than I should have. When I learn that one of my kids’ friends has straight A’s, I automatically wonder if they have a mental illness like anxiety or OCD. I am rambling again…
I love that you have an addiction recovery group where you can set SMART goals. I love support groups. I think I am a support group junkie.
My two cents I said goofbye to LO and haven’t seen her again; just let it happen. I really said nothing but “goodbye” and “don’t be a stranger”.
Working on getting on the other side of limerence, I am very glad I left it as it was. Remember your brain is not letting you see things for the way they are. For her it maybe just another goodbye. And at the average age most of this community is here, we have probably left jobs for various reasons. To her this may not be a big deal. She may say “I’ll miss you” and probably means it, and gives you a few random thoughts down the road but limerence makes you see it differently.
I know your LO seems so nice and particularly kind to you. But as I can see in hindsight LO was just a nice lady in general. She was to everyone. My limerence misconstrued that as special treatment, when in reality I was giving her special treatment that was unsolicited.
Take it from someone that is now dealing with the fallout of guilt of what I put my wife AND LO through. Neither of them asked for what happened. And both of them deserved better than what they got from me. My actions may have seemed to be for her benefit but really I was pushing her into a role she didn’t ask for and pushing away my wife. Don’t put LO and your wife through what I did. If you care for your LO do the thing that is right for HER and not yourself.
One last thing and then I will stfu …. it may not have been the right motivation to keep me within the acceptable actions for having a female co-worker, but it worked. Think about how what you say/do for this last goodbye will impact LO’s life. When LO was content with a simple goodbye and got in her truck and drove off I realized (though still in limerence then) that I was just another co-worker at another job that will soon be forgotten. It hurt then but I realize now, almost a year later, that the devious effect of limerence can make you do things that you will regret. And it’s best to try and minimize those bad choices as much as you can.
I might have had a chance to have an actual friendship with LO if it weren’t for the limerence and my actions. Who knows because what is done is done. And what is done is she is gone and I have a hurt wife at home that by all rights could walk out the door. And don’t forget, if you do have any, you drag your whole family through it too. I have effected my children and possibly lost their trust or respect. As a functioning alcoholic there’s nothing I despise than the “I was drunk” excuse for bad actions/choices. But I tell you my friend limerence does the same to you and the amount of excuses I had for my wife was shameful and hurtful.
I still read many of the posts – yours very carefully, Adam. There are some pearls of wisdom in this one although I think you are too hard on yourself.
I have been asking myself this simple question today. How can it possibly last for so long? For me, No Contact since Christmas (I’m being ghosted) and the last meeting with LO was over a year ago.
I’ve been busy making other social arrangements where possible. How amazing it’s going to be when the limerence fades.
Never, ever again!
I can totally understand. From start to finish I spent 2 years in limerence and knew LO for three. I go into in more detail in the New Years blog post, but my wife read some of Dr L’s posts that I printed out back when I found this place and she wanted to talk about it. I found that scary at first but you know once we plowed through it, being honest about what this has done to the both of us it was actually a relief.
For me, I take at least one walk a weekday and spend at least an hour or so playing games with my son. I’m trying to occupy my mind and my time when I am not at work. It helps greatly to get my mind off LO. And I feel some relief of pressure from the limerence. I know I am on the right track to getting over this. And I think you are on the right track to it too frederico.
Lots of people here when I first found this place said it will get better with time. The limerence will fade. You see LO rationally. I didn’t believe them really then. But, not to be clique, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. You can do this frederico!
I agree with Miss Lovisa that they are both important in equal proportions. I may have gotten to comfortable in my marriage. Maybe it was a lack of passion as my wife goes through this low in her bipolar (through no fault of her own). Both could have been the reason (not an excuse) that I fell for limerence.
I think the comfort builds stability which important. And passion keeps the connection tight so as things like limerence, EA, PA and the like can’t get in. Just like when people, the victims of an affair, find out they often wonder “why?” The answer could be numerous things, like as mentioned for myself with limerence, but in my opinion there is no excuse for it. I think you should end one relationship before you make another one. The insidious thing about limerence was even though I knew there would be no relationship with LO I still justified and escalated the limerence.
Now things to do to keep the passion? Better than any amazing sexual experience (and there’s been a lot of great ones) we’ve had in our 23 years is out of the blue my wife (who never plays video games) wanted to play Resident Evil 5 with me when it came out. The hours WE spent together with that and the sequel RE6 was some of the best memories I have. To have her take an interest in one of my hobbies was so exciting. Kind of teaching/guiding her through the game until she started getting better at some aspects of the game than me lol Good times.
Miss Lovisa, no I am still wearing it on my necklace. I will keep it safe until she is ready. And I will give her all the time she needs. But this morning she was up early like me. I got ready for work and was about to leave and she gave me a goodbye kiss. I imagine due to my behavior it is something she stopped doing through this LE. It was nice. It made my day. I don’t think I deserve this second chance but I am going to try not to look a gift horse in mouth and just try to be a better husband now.
“she gave me a goodbye kiss”
This is a sign of a woman who wants to work on it, Adam.
And I remember reading you said something about finding her hot in a tank top and wondered whether you should reach out and hug her? As a woman I say an emphatic: “YES”
Nothing is more wonderful than feeling desired. If you can both make the other person feel desired, it will go a long way towards getting back together.
Yes that was me. I will try to take the initiative more, but I also don’t want her to think I am trying to rush into things after all I have done to her. Even before the LE when she’s just had a bad day or tired she’s not in the mood for physical touch. And even though that’s my love language I need to let her take the first steps for a bit until I can tell what she is comfortable with again.
But yeah I was like, is this a sign she at least wants to try? Thanks for reassuring me Emily.
Adam,
Things are going in the right direction!
Clip of the Day: “Top Gun” (1985) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e686mVWXhY0
I’ve thought that in many ways “Top Gun” was a metaphor for my relationship with LO #2.
Song of the Day: “As Long As You Follow” – Fleetwood Mac (1988)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROGEHq1WZqU
This may be my favorite Fleetwood Mac song.
Adam it is so cute that you two played video games together. Aww, thanks for sharing that sweet memory.
It is interesting that you are still wearing her wedding ring. SO and I both wondered. Hopefully, when she is ready, she’ll ask for it back. I love how you carefully respect her boundaries.
Adam, trust me, you deserve this second chance. I suspect that I speak for many of the LwL commentators when I say that you are too hard on yourself.
Lost In Space
Your most recent post reminded me of an blog post I read some time ago (and thankfully saved the pin on pinterest) that talks about the very thing you mentioned. It is written by a woman who her and her husband do marriage counseling. And when I randomly came across this pin and read the article it was like she was in my head. Everything she said is true but I had absolutely still (and I think a lot of men do also) no way to articulate what I read to my wife.
And she is completely right in the reason why a lot of men won’t bring this up with their SO and continue to suffer in silence. There’s no way to broach this subject that will probably not end in a good way. Because in this subject we are fighting years and years of social norms, propaganda, stereotypes and prejudice. But as I was typing up and email this article just popped in my head and I said I need to post that for LiS.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/askshaunti/2018/01/desire-husbands-dont-like-discuss/
Adam, thanks for sharing that article. It’s so spot on in terms of what I feel.
“In your man’s mind, if you put an effort into taking care of yourself, it shows that you care for him – and if you don’t, he feels that you don’t care for him.”
That sums it up pretty well, right? My SO knows I’d prefer her to be fit, that I find fit bodies more sexually attractive than obese bodies (and she readily admits that she prefers fit male bodies to obese ones), that I want her to be healthy and active with me long term and not get sick or die before me… yet her actions ever day show me that she cares more about eating junk food, drinking sugary drinks and watching many hours of tv every day than she does about staying healthy and fit. Right or wrong, it does make me feel that she cares less about me as a man and as her husband, and that she takes me for granted and doesn’t feel a need to put in even moderate amounts of effort. It hurts when she jokes about not needing to look sexy anymore since she’s married, and I get jealous of male friends with fit wives – like “why does his wife care enough to make the effort and mine doesn’t?”
I love my wife very much, and I love her no matter what her body looks likes. And if I had to choose, I’d prefer to live with an obese but happy wife than a fit but unhappy wife, if those were truly my only two choices. But I do really struggle to understand why she can’t commit to basic self-care when she knows it’s important for herself, to me, and to our shared future. It frustrates me and saddens me, and I also think it does make me more vulnerable to limerence when a woman with a fit and sexy body shows interest in me.
You’re welcome.
One thing I can offer if you are concerned about your wife’s health in regards to her eating habits, you can try Noom. It’s how I lost the 40 lbs that I did starting in 2021. It’s really effective because it teaches you about your relationship to food and how daily decisions effect your health. It really doesn’t deny you anything as far as what you eat. But teaches portion control and why certain foods you can eat more of and some you might need to eat less of.
It starts off with a short quiz when you go to their site to try and decipher a plan of action and which type of plan to make for you. They make a personalized plan for each person that uses their service, catered to your goals. When I tried it they did offer a free trail, which I am sure they still do, but can’t promise it. Maybe you could do it together to give her support. It teaches you a lot of things about food whether you want to loose 5 lbs, 50 lbs, or just learn how to eat healthy.
Thanks Adam. Glad to hear Noom worked so well for you! My SO actually signed up for it last year, did it for a few weeks and then lost interest. Now she’s signed up with a 1:1 online personal trainer (at my suggestion) but hasn’t really made any progress after a couple of months because she skips half the workouts and cheats on the meal plans every day. I’m not saying anything to her about it because it’s not worth an argument and it won’t make any difference anyway. Basically if a person isn’t internally motivated, it doesn’t seem to matter what external supports they have.
It sounds like you must have been really motivated when you did Noom. Was your motivation primarily about your LO or was it something else?
I think your wife needs to find herself an LO Lost In Space. Best diet motivator ever!! 🙂
I really relate to this. My SO is also unhealthily and un-sexily overweight, despite doing lots of exercise and frequent diet attempts. I love him but do not desire him. I would be delighted if he slimmed down but I don’t think he ever will so I must just accept that and do my best to empathise with his weight struggles.
His slimness is one of the things I like about my LO.
I do think it is incredibly hard to lose weight long term, especially for those with less fortunate genetics, whom suffer from higher levels of hunger and/or experience less satiety after eating. Few people seem to succeed but 70% of people seem to be always trying to lose weight.
Allie, I am guessing you are fit. It is interesting that you don’t desire your SO at all. Do you think his weight is the only issue? I still desire my SO regardless of his weight. After all, he is the only naked man available to me and I love… well, I will let you fill in the blank because I don’t want to be inappropriate. Could there be something besides his appearance holding you back?
My LO2 recently started having sex with his wife after one of her girlfriends recommended some new bedroom techniques. They have been sexless their whole 29.5- year marriage. They have even gone more than a year without sex, and their high is every other month. I couldn’t survive that. He survives it because he has such a strong commitment to his family and his god. Well, it turns out that his wife wasn’t climaxing. They got a sex toy for him to use on her and now both of them are getting their needs met. LO2’s friend is refusing to do the same for his wife and LO2 has enlisted me to help him talk his friend (our mutual friend) into it. LO2 doesn’t want our friend and his wife to suffer needlessly any longer. So I asked the friend, “Does your wife climax?” He doesn’t know. My SO and I talked about it last night and we are quite certain that a man would know if his wife climaxes. I wonder if she hasn’t learned her body like LO2’s wife hadn’t learned her body. It blows my mind because these women are married and in their forties and not having regular orgasms. I can’t imagine living like that. They twisted our religion into believing that sex is bad. The only thing our religion teaches is that we are only supposed to have sexual relations with someone “to whom you are legally and lawfully wedded.” There are no rules against sex toys or getting creative in the bedroom. Anyway, I am beginning to wonder if this is a common problem. If you snuggle your SO, does that trigger desire in you? Are you able to have fulfilling sex? If not, how does a marriage survive without sex? I’m curious because sex is important in my marriage. And my two male friends who talk somewhat openly about it are sex-starved. They have recognized the problem for a long time, but they don’t know how to fix it. Well… one of them finally fixed it, but the other one is too scared.
Allie, if I snuggle my SO, my impulse is to slowly send my hand down his pants. Of course I don’t always do that, but the impulse is always there. Do you find your hands exploring your SO during snuggling? I know you love love your SO because you speak so highly of him and marriage in general. Do you snuggle him?
I appreciate how open you are about sharing your experiences, but I understand completely if you’d rather not discuss this subject.
Dr. L, I understand if this post gets censored.
Hi Lovisa,
I know it seems like I am new here- but I am not. I follow the blog daily and have for about a year. We’ve actually “chatted” but it was a while ago, and I can’t remember my handle! Oh well.
I hope your response does not get taken down because I think the main message (or at least what I took as the main message) is so important! Which is to TALK to your SO other what turns them on. Even if you have been married for a long time, don’t assume you necessarily know how they are feeling now. I always think your suggestions for how to be more physical with a partner are awesome, and what I would like to add is start by asking your partner what makes them feel good. Choose a time when no one is stressed out with kids, housework, work etc. and talk about what excites them. Have a glass of wine, put on some nice background music, make a nice dinner- set the stage so that your SO will enjoy opening up about what makes them feel good.
I think women often KNOW what they like, talk about it all the time with their girlfriends, but rarely with their partners. Which in my opinion is a total bummer. Talking about sex can be really fun!
Like you, I enjoy a very fun and frequent sex life with my husband. We have sex daily, and it is one of the ways we connect as partners. We have been married a little short of 20 years, and I can say our sex life has has only become more fulfilling as we have gotten older.
We have two wonderful children, and my body reflects this. I love my body and feel very sexy- but you know- I’m also in my mid forties, and am not as fit as I was when I got married. I do work out, but I also am just aging in a normal way. One thing I love about my husband (who is a marathon runner and tri-athlete-so super fit) is that he ALWAYS makes me feel wanted and beautiful. We really enjoy going for walks and hikes together, but it’s never about getting exercise for the purpose of being more attractive. We cook all the time together and have fun trying out new recipes. Finding new healthy recipes is something we enjoy together.
My husband regularly tells me how attractive I am to him (this is such a turn on-right Lovisa!) and every so often he will tell me that he thinks I’m even sexier than when we met. Now- I fully believe that he feels this way- but I can tell you- from a purely physical standpoint I was much hotter when I was 25. But because of the nature of our relationship our sex life is definitely better now 🔥.
During lock down I did gain a lot of weight, and he never once made me feel ugly. If anything, he was more loving because I think he sensed that I needed support (I had a job that became extremely intense because of covid.)
I felt sad when I read “In your man’s mind, if you put an effort into taking care of yourself, it shows that you care for him – and if you don’t, he feels that you don’t care for him.”
My husband knows that I love him because of so many things about our relationship and the way we interact. I think our very happy sex life is much more a reflection of how we treat each other and less about how either one of us looks. Because we trust and know each other so well we feel free to explore in bed. I really enjoy doing things that I know turn him on. It’s exciting and makes me less like a busy suburban mom and more like a lover. It’s actually a huge joy in my life- but I would never feel like that if I felt like my husband was judging my body. It would completely shut down my ability to be sexy with him.
I’m sure one could have a very loving relationship even if you agree with that quote. I’m not judging anyone who thinks that- and actually my best friend often says a version of that about her husband- so maybe it’s why I find it problematic?
I’m just offering another perspective. 🙂
Well said, Summer! I agree completely with everything you said, except that I can relate to the quote from Lost in Space. I see why it would be hurtful, too. I can see both sides of it. I hope Lost in Space sees your post.
I agree that sex gets better over time. This morning, even before reading your post, I was asking myself, “Was last night the best sex we’ve ever had?” We tried something new and it was amazing! It might be the best for me… at least the top 5.
My friend, who refuses to use a sex toy on his wife, asked me how to do it. He asked, “Do you just shove it inside?” I was like, “That sounds awful.” LO2 decided to be funny and replied, “Yep, you just shove it inside, go make yourself some popcorn, grab a soda, then come back and watch what happens.” Oh brother. I have no doubt they will want to address this subject next week.
Applause for your articulation of such a difficult subject.
Hi Lovisa,
Thank you for getting back to me. I am going to think about the other perspective of the quote. I appreciate that you often see both sides of an issue and have noticed that in many of your comments. Sometimes I can struggle with perspectives that don’t match my life experience.
HOWEVER- one thing I do have experience with is sex toys. I was thinking I would share my story, and maybe it might be helpful to your friend. 😂
When I was younger I never had any trouble with having an orgasm. Then about- maybe five years ago? it became much harder for me. I did talk to my obgyn. She said it was probably hormonal and that this was pretty common when women are getting into their 40s. I found it upsetting and actually hard to talk about with my husband- even though we are very open to talking about sex in general. I knew that he would feel like “less of a man.” I think it was hard for me too because it felt like I was losing that sexy (younger) side of myself. I really couldn’t imagine not having that be part of our sex life.
Anyway- my friend suggested getting a vibrator. I was open to trying it out, but my husband was really turned off by the idea. Part of the issue was that I wasn’t being honest with him about not orgasming (yes… I know… I know… never a good idea). I think he felt like if we used a vibrator he wouldn’t be as involved, or it would be less about him. I think it made him feel emasculated- which totally made sense to me. I know he likes the fact that his wife is so attracted to him… so this felt a little the opposite.
Anyway- I went ahead and bought one and tried it out without him at first. It took me a little time to figure out what worked best for me. Then once I felt comfortable, we would use it together but not all the time. It was definitively trial and error.
I think the most important thing about the experience was approaching it with an attitude of: this is something that could be fun. This is something we could enjoy together- but if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. No harm, no foul. It was important for my husband to know that the trouble with having an orgasm was really more about how my body was changing over time, and not related to my desire for him. It was important for me that he really understood that- but it also took me some time before I could voice my feelings.
This all happened a few years ago. Today, we actually almost never use the sex toy- I’m not even sure where I hid it. 😂 However, I am really happy that we did use it because it helped us be more open about what how our sex life needed to change as our (mainly my) body was changing.
This is just ONE of the reasons why I really encourage honest conversations with your SO if you have been married for a long time. I am physically different then when I got married, but I want my relationship to continue to grow and adjust accordingly. One of the reasons why our sex life has become so good over the years is that I am much more vocal about what I want. That is something I think a lot of women struggle with. When I was younger I was much more focused on how I could please the man I was with, but sex is so much better when it is about mutual fulfillment. I know my husband would agree!
On a side note Lovisa- in some ways we are very different. I am a hard core liberal, agnostic and had many relationships before I got married.
I imagine our day to day life might look different- but I also imagine that we would be friends in real life. I find myself seeing eye to eye with you so often in this forum. It just makes me smile. I also enjoy hearing your perspective because I do think we come from very different backgrounds- and in this world that is polarized, it’s nice to have a safe place to hear other opinions. Hopefully that makes sense and maybe your friend will benefit from my story!
Hi Summer, thank you so much for sharing your story. I will share it with my friend next week if he brings the subject up again. He is clearly thinking about it, but he is scared and I think he believes that a sex toy would replace him. He doesn’t seem to understand that he is still the star of the show.
My SO and I go through phases where sometimes we use them and sometimes not. We have other ways of achieving the same goal.
Interesting that you are agnostic and liberal. I don’t actually know what that means, sorry. I think agnostic means you don’t believe there is a god and you don’t care either. And I think liberal means that you prefer to err on the side of personal freedom over regulations. I am probably way off, but that is what I think of when I hear those terms. I have no doubt that we could be in-person friends, but I’ve never had a female friend who wasn’t Christian so it would be interesting for sure.
Thanks again for your response. It is very informative and helpful.
Hi everyone – lots of discussion and lots of different perspectives on this topic! I was really hesitant to even post about this initially because it is such a sensitive thing to talk about and I really don’t want to hurt anyone or make anyone feel bad, but at the same time I’m trying to figure out my own feelings and drives and motivations, and I think it’s clear that others here are dealing with the same issues (although all in different ways), so I’m glad this discussion is taking place and I really appreciate everyone discussing their feelings honestly without attacking anyone personally (and I really am sorry to anyone I may have hurt with my posts). I think this is a really amazing community to learn and grow with.
Lovisa: “I still desire my SO regardless of his weight. After all, he is the only naked man available to me and I love…” I think that’s a really interesting statement. I take 2 things from it – first, that you’re likely a less visual and more emotionally aroused person, and the emotional connection you have with him is more important that his physical appearance. Would you agree? Second, at least for me I don’t feel that saying “SO is the only person I get to have sex with and I love sex” is quite the same as saying “I find SO super attractive”. I also love sex, and am committed to only being with my SO, and I enjoy sex with her and am attracted to her in many ways that go beyond the physical, but at the same time, there is definitely something missing for me. Probably due to a combination of biology and social conditioning, my brain (like many but not all men) is wired to respond instinctively and intensely to particular shapes and curves of a woman’s body. It’s a strong and primitive and utterly subconscious reaction, and I feel it when I look at some women (LO included) and I don’t feel anymore it when I look at SO. And I badly want to feel it for SO! I really want to be intensely attracted to her, and I used to be, and know I would be again if she got back to a more fit body shape.
Allie: “ I think your wife needs to find herself an LO Lost In Space. Best diet motivator ever!!”.
That’s actually what kinda hurts because I know it’s true! If she was limerent for some other guy, or if we (God forbid) ever split up and she wanted to find another guy, I guarantee she’d be looking amazing within a few months. But she doesn’t care to do it for me, because she doesn’t seem interested in continuing to attract me or feel a need to continue attracting me now that we’re married. And maybe I should try to take that as “it’s so nice that she feels safe with me and doesn’t feel a need to worry about her appearance” rather than “she doesn’t care about my happiness”, but to be honest I struggle to fully believe that – not saying it’s right or wrong, it’s just how I feel deep inside.
For me, the fact that I’m the only guy my wife ever gets to have sex with is actually reason #1 that I try to keep myself looking good for her. I see it as part of keeping up my end of the monogamy agreement. I know what things she’s attracted to physically (she definitely lets me know when she sees a guy she likes on tv 🤣) and so I try to give her what she wants as much as possible. For example, a little while ago she was going on and on about how good this one male actor’s glutes looked. Obviously I’m not jealous of an actor on tv, but I took it as information about what she likes – I said to myself “oh, she thinks well developed glutes are sexy. That’s something that turns her on. I can’t look as good as a professional actor, but I want to do my best to be attractive for her” and so I did the men’s health 30 day glute challenge and started squatting 3x per week – not because I felt insecure or jealous, but because I wanted to give her something that she wanted. And she appreciated it and definitely liked the changes, but that doesn’t seem to go both ways for us.
Anyway, I feel like I’m going on too long, but I’ll say that I think there’s no right or wrong to this issue, and it’s really hard to talk about, but it does matter (more to some of us than to others) so I appreciate the space to talk about it and hear other people’s perspectives. Honestly I really wish it didn’t matter to me at all! If I could rewire my brain to either be non-visual or to find obese bodies sexy, I’d love to do that! I’d love to get genuinely excited about SO’s body the way it is now. But deep down, I’m just not. (and to be clear and precise, I’m not talking about 10 or 20 lbs or “things aren’t as perky as when she was 20”, I’m talking about 50-60 lbs of weight gain, mostly in the abdomen, on a 5’1” person that completely changed her body shape and erased all of the visually attractive curves and shapes.) And again, it definitely doesn’t diminish my love for my SO at all, and it’s certainly not an excuse to ever make her feel bad or to cheat with other women, but I think it is something I need to continue to understand and work on because I know it is a factor in my limerence episodes, and I know I can’t change her so I just need to work on understanding and acceptance
Lovisa-
Please share with your friend that my husband felt the same exact way initially! He was very reluctant to try out the toy, but then it ended up being a lot of fun- but also- as I said before- the most important thing was the conversations around changing things up in the bedroom. That has led to so many positive evolutions in our relationship.
As far as agnostic and liberal- By agnostic- I mean that I do not outright believe in God, but I also acknowledge that I do not and could not ever really know. Religion doesn’t play any role in my life. I consider myself a spiritual, thoughtful person- but I feel no connection to organized religion. Like you, I spend a lot of time in nature and that has always been the place most holy to me. Hopefully, that makes sense?
By liberal I mean democratic voting (for the most part) and socially liberal, but I try not to let that get in my way too much. 😉
It’s interesting- I have friends of many different religions but pretty much all of my friends are politically the same as me. I wonder if we are the opposite in that way.
I am curious, do you talk with your female friends about how their sex lives have changed since they have gotten older? I talk with my friends quite a bit, and it has been eye opening to read different perspectives in this thread.
Hi LIS-
First off, thank you for your thoughtful tone and for your honesty. When I read your most recent post I felt like… ohhhh…. I understand a lot more about what LIS is going through. The way you explained yourself felt super respectful to both readers on this site and your wife- at least from my (overly sensitive) perspective. I think you are right that these things are super personal.
Attraction is so damn tricky! I have so many thoughts about what makes me feel attracted to my husband and why he is attracted to me- but I am more curious about a few things about you. Feel free to dismiss these questions, but if you were in the mood to share I would love to hear more.
You said that you still love having sex with your wife and are attracted to her in many ways. Would you mind elaborating? What is it that you enjoy about sex with her? What are the qualities that you find attractive?
In terms of the weight gain- and I could be totally wrong- but I suspect that even if she was limerent for another it might be hard to lose that much weight and keep it off in the long run. As someone who watches their weight like a hawk- I can say it’s just… not easy for a lot of people to lose weight- and in fact- sometimes it really sucks to have to worry about staying thin all the time. It reminds me of when Lovisa was talking about the other side of having a 4.0 GPA. When I’ve complained about my weight in the past my husband likes to tease me and say, “you could be addicted to cocaine and then you would be REALLY thin!”
His point is that being thin does not always equate health or attractiveness. His mantra is: exercise, eat well and feel happy in your body. That is the most important thing. But I will say as a major athlete himself he has seen a lot of unhappy, eating disordered women- which is a real turn off for him. Anyway- apologizes. I digress!
And of course I have no idea about your wife or the specifics! (I don’t mean to be preachy.) But here is my second question- let’s just say your wife more or less is going to have the figure she has now for the time being or even the long run. I know from many of your posts that you really love your wife and want to stay faithful to her. Is there anything she could do (aside from losing weight) that would make you feel more attracted to her? Is there anything else she could do that would turn you on and feel wanted? Is that a conversation you could have with her? Is that a conversation you would WANT to have with her.
Is the weight gain the main issue for you? Absolutely no judgement if that is the case. I think that seems pretty normal. But I am wondering if that is really the only issue.
Finally, if your LO was just not a part of the equation. Like you moved on and forgot all about her- would you feel differently about your wife? For me, limerence made me desire my husband more. I am curious what your experience has been.
I’ve noticed that a lot of people say they wish they could feel limerent for their SO. I never feel that way because for me limerence is a total roller coaster that inevitably feels really, really bad. I’m not even sure I would want the highs of limerence long term. So much of my limerence was based on pure fantasy. I am so glad that my marriage is not like that! Yikes. I feel like that would be a nightmare in reality.
Anyway- thank you again for your earlier, thoughtful post. I hope my questions weren’t intrusive or out of line. I have a lot of respect for you for talking about these very personal issues.
Hi Lost in Space, thanks for opening up discussion about such a taboo topic. There was a time when my SO’s weight-gain bothered me. It bothered me a lot and I mostly kept my distress to myself because I learned that if I said anything about my SO’s weight, eating habits, or lack of exercise, I was labeled “insensitive.” The subject has been untouchable for most of our marriage. Not only does my SO make me feel like a selfish person for expressing concern, other people rush to SO’s defense if I say anything that could imply that I want him to take better care of himself. I finally accepted it. He kind of doesn’t chose to be overweight. As a whole, he would rather be fit, but in each moment, he chooses to do things like to have soda and popcorn at movies or eat processed food for breakfast. The little things add up and he doesn’t seem willing to change the little behaviors. And heaven forbid that I should say something like, “Do you think we could go to the movies and not get concessions? I want to see a show, but I don’t think it’s wise to eat this late.” If anyone else heard me say something like that to my SO, they would think that I am insensitive and controlling. I have been wrestling with this problem for 24 years. It started right after we married. I finally accepted it. I have no say in how my SO takes care of himself.
I pondered your question about arousal. I’m not sure if I know myself well enough to answer. I know that I am attracted to men who make me feel good. The best way a man can make me feel good is by caring about me, listening to me and validating me. When that emotional foundation is secure, arousal can happen. I think I get aroused when I feel desired. I guess you are right that the visual isn’t as important as the emotional. I will say that a fit man smells so good! I have the nose of a k9, and I love the smell of a man who takes care of his body. LO3 smells so good! There have been times when my SO’s smell was repulsive and it had nothing to do with his hygiene. I can’t explain it. Sex is challenging when you feel repulsed by a smell. I made the mistake of saying something and it is one of the things that SO brings up when he wants to illustrate how insensitive I was in the past. I learned to pretend like his smell doesn’t bother me.
Anyway, I hope I answered your question.
Summer, thank you for explaining what you meant by liberal and agnostic. I don’t know that I lean in a specific direction. I was a conservative republican until things got weird and now I tend to vote more democratic, though I try to vote more for the candidate and less for the party.
No, I don’t talk to female friends about sex. I have a few who will talk about it, but most won’t. Or perhaps the subject hasn’t come up. I can think of 4 friends who I’ve talked to about sexual topics. My sister is the best source for questions because she will talk about anything. I love that about her. Most of my friends won’t bring up the subject and I am not comfortable bringing it up with them. The fact that I can talk about sex with three of my male friends surprises me, but I appreciate it because I learn new things and they learn new things, too.
LIS… so sorry. I was jesting but realise I was insensitive about your hurt feelings regarding your wife.
To explain… I lost weight due to limerence. Despite being fit and enjoying plentiful sport and exercise, I have struggled with yo-yo-ing weight my entire life. I found the LE hormone cocktail killed my appetite and enhanced my mental and physical energy. I virtually starved myself for a year, something I never could have done without my limerence! And I did not do that for my LO, I did it solely for ME. Should I starve just to please my SO? No.
I am sure your wife would LOVE to lose her excess weight and be more attractive to you. EVERYONE that is overweight wants to be slimmer and more attractive. It is just such very hard thing to succeed it when you are wired a certain way, especially for women above 40, whose hormones are working against them. But that is not personal and no reflection on how your wife feels about you, or how much she values your need for her to be more desirable.
The science is that naturally slim people often have slim genetics. They have higher levels of satiety hormones and/or lower levels of hunger hormones. So staying slim seems relatively easy to them and they can never understand why overweight people cannot “just eat less”.
Wishing you well.
Thank you all for the thoughtful and honest responses. It’s amazing to feel so heard and understood here.
Summer, those are all great questions and I’ll do my best to answer them
1) What do I love about sex with my wife? I love the feeling of closeness more than anything. Looking deep into each other’s eyes, holding each other, feeling skin against skin and body against body while we move together, hearing the sounds she makes and the look on her face when she’s feeling good – it’s all just very exciting to me and also makes me feel so close to her. We almost always snuggle up tight afterwards and fall asleep holding each other and I love that. When we make love I almost always end up filled with feelings that she trusts me and desires me and loves me deeply.
2) What else would help with my attraction to SO if her weight stays the same? It helps when she’s emotionally available and open with me, and when she’s excited about life. She goes through periods of time when she can pretty distant and shut down emotionally, and will do things like play on her phone during our conversations and not really listen or want to talk meaningfully – this was the status last fall when my last LE began and definitely made me vulnerable to my coworker who was super interested in talking with me and gave me her full attention and was really open about her own life and emotions. Despite the recent topic, emotional connection is definitely the most important thing to me, and when things are good with SO and I in terms of connection (like they are currently) my attraction increases a lot. SO also goes through times when she’s not really interested in much and spends all her time watching reality tv and playing on her phone, and I don’t find her very attractive in that state. Conversely, when she’s excited and passionate about something (and it could be anything – right now it’s a book she’s reading and a new interest in houseplants) and she’s learning new stuff and trying new stuff and excited to tell me all about it, I find that really attractive – when she’s passionate about life and it shows, that really attracts me
3) Is the weight gain the main issue for me? In some ways it’s that simple and in some ways it’s not – yes because of the way my brain is wired to respond in a deep innate way to visual cues, and because I miss that particular type of attraction to her and end up finding it in others. And yes because I do really worry about her health and therefore our shared future – we have so many things we want to do together in life, and if she ends up immobile and sick prematurely, we’re going to miss out on a lot of that. More deeply, I think that the weight is the visual representation of her depression. She has always gone through periodic bouts of depression, and she always works to get herself out of them (and I greatly admire how she fights through it and gets help when needed). In the past, she would gain weight during depressive episodes, and then lose it again when she was feeling better. For the last 10 years or so, she tends to gain during episodes and then just maintain during her happy periods, and then gain again during the next depression. And I don’t want to be like “poor me, her depression is so hard on me” because I know that it’s 100x harder for her, but it is a very helpless and horrible feeling to be married to someone with depression as well, to see the person you love suffering and be unable to do anything to help them, and seeing her weight persist makes me scared that her depression will return and never let up in the future, which is know is unlikely but it still scares me. Not sure how much sense any of that makes…
4) What effect does my current LE have on my feelings for SO? At the beginning, it was negative. When I was deep into an EA with my LO a few months ago, I found myself thinking a lot of negative things about my relationship with SO, which I’ve concluded was a trick my brain was playing to allow me to rationalize my behavior. Now that the EA has essentially ended, I find myself having much more positive thoughts about SO. It’s like I had this experience where I actually did have an opportunity to be with someone else I desired strongly, but I ultimately chose loyalty to SO, and that gave me a better appreciation of how much I do love being with her and how much I love her and how she really is the person I want to be with forever.
Anyway, hopefully I answered your questions – I feel like I’m not articulating 100% clearly today but hopefully that mostly made sense
Allie – no need to apologize! I wasn’t hurt by you making the comment – I’ve actually thought the exact same thing myself many times in a half joking, half sad way. And thanks for your thoughts about how her weight gain is not a sign that she doesn’t care about me and that I should try not to take it personally
Lovisa – thanks for sharing as well – it’s validating to hear you express the same frustrations as me about feeling helpless to do or say anything, and end up getting labeled as insensitive or causing hurt to your SO any time you do slip and say something. I’ve felt exactly the same way for many years and it’s just not something that I can talk about with anyone
Sorry, one more post this morning… I was thinking about my relationship with LO in the context of this discussion. I know I’ve mentioned before that I think LO’s body is very sexy, and that I’ve always been physically attracted to her. But it’s interesting that for the first 5 years we worked together, I definitely noticed her and was attracted to her, but never had anything resembling limerence for her. The limerence didn’t start until we started talking all the time and got really emotionally open and vulnerable with each other and I really started to know her as a person – that’s when all of the strong emotions and constant thoughts and everything started.
And in fact, from January until recently, we basically had a long-distance relationship where we very rarely saw each other but just talked on the phone and texted all the time, and I can say that not seeing her or being in physical proximity didn’t decrease my limerence for her in the slightest – I felt strongly that I could be happy the rest of my life just talking with her on the telephone every day.
And it’s that emotional connection and bond that makes it so painful to end the relationship now. If she was just a collection of nice body parts, I wouldn’t be crying every day at the thought of never talking to her again – there’s plenty of other physically attractive women around, but there’s only one unique and special human being that’s my LO, and I miss her so badly now that our relationship has reached the end, and I’m devastated by the thought of not being part of her life in the future or possibly ever seeing her again. So I think that maybe the physical attraction may have set the stage for everything else to develop, but it was the emotional connection that has been far and away the driving factor in the limerence and the bond that seems so hard to break.
“Allie, I am guessing you are fit. It is interesting that you don’t desire your SO at all. Do you think his weight is the only issue? Could there be something besides his appearance holding you back?”
“Do you snuggle him?”
It is a number of factors not just his weight. If anything, I think his weight affects him sexually more than me.
My marriage is sexless and has been for a decade. My limerence for my SO wore off after a few years and my desire for him wore off shortly after. SO is lovely in so many ways but he is lazy and that applies to sex as much as anything else. Sexually, that leaves me cold. Feeling like that during sex compounds the low desire problem as I cannot feel emotionally close to SO during crap sex.
I am very much open, relaxed, sexually liberated, sensual and adventurous, and have no issues discussing sex, knowing and explaining what I like, etc. My libido is good. SO is the sexual opposite of me.
Our communication about the issue is also good, there are no resentful or hurt feelings either way. Over the years he has made many promises to do better, try something different, etc but does not deliver. Our lack of sex does not bother him too much it seems. It has been so long now that when we snuggle, while I enjoy the physical affection, I feel no desire to go any further, if anything the idea of sex with him feels a bit ick these days.
There is nothing I can do to change this situation so I just accept it. If the opportunity to have sex with someone else came up, I would take it. And I have permission to do exactly that but only the once. I had once desperately hoped that could be LO (limerent sex is awesome!) but now accept that will never happen.
Allie, you are a strong woman. Thank you for sharing. It is interesting that you have one “hall pass.” I would be sad if I knew I only had one sexual encounter left. You accepted it like a champ. I admire you for it. I might have more questions later. Sexless marriages baffle me.
Lost in Space, I always learn so much from your comments. Thank you for bravely discussing a forbidden subject. I’m sorry that the withdrawal pain is so intense right now. I hope it passes quickly.
I talked to LO2 and his friend again about sex toys, female orgasms and sexless marriage. I shared the stories that were shared on this thread. LO2 wanted to hear the discussion, but he didn’t want to participate. Our mutual friend said that your stories were helpful, he appreciated that you shared such personal information and he “took the information to heart.” Who knows where this will lead. FYI, I refer to the LwL community as my support group so I am sure that they are amazed that a room full of adults could talk about these things. I don’t know how to explain it any other way.
Summer, your story was especially helpful. Thank you so much for sharing.
I think the thing is once people get their happy ever after (aka marriage) they don’t thing all that comes after takes any effort. There is a feeling of entitlement: that your spouse will love you no matter what, no matter how you look, or in some cases behave … hence LIS’ discomfort for even voicing that it does matter to him that his SO does basic maintenance.
Laziness and lack of motivation may not mean you are unlovable, but it sure isn’t attractive!!!
Wholeheartedly agree with this.
It is far too easy to be complacent when you have a sure thing and thus feel totally secure and comfortable. I see this in so many marriages, expressed through so many different forms of behaviour.
Objectively speaking it’s a big ask isn’t it? You must be faithful to me heart, body and soul no matter what. Desire me above all even if I am letting myself go, not making an effort. Love only me, even if I am turning away from you and denying connection. And can’t even voice dissension because you PROMISED you would love me forever after so any thing I do or do not do is irrelevant.
I agree in theory, but in practice it’s usually more nuanced. Most couples I know that don’t get along both bring issues to their relationship. I think when spouses are out right mean and rude to each other it’s a lot worse than if one has let themselves go. I know plenty of very attractive people who are a**holes to their spouses. Give me an extra 20 pounds any day over being married to someone who treats you poorly.
I agree with Summer that there are definitely a lot of things more important that physical appearance and weight. My SO is significantly overweight but is a really great person and generally treats me with kindness, love and respect, and I consider myself happily married. On the other hand, if she looked amazing but was consistently rude or cruel or manipulative or controlling, I’d have been out a long time ago.
But I also agree with the sentiment that it’s important to keep putting in an effort to be the best spouse possible and not get complacent after marriage – and I think of this not just physically but also mentally, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually….
I feel that the marriage vows should be thought of as 2 sides of the same coin. On one side is the whole “I’ll be faithful to you and forsake all others” and on the other side is “Since you’re forsaking all others to be with me, I’ll do my best to keep being a great spouse to you for the rest of our lives and not just take you for granted”. And I feel that both of these should be considered equally important to a happy and successful marriage
However, I know there can also be some danger in this line of thinking, because I’ve used some variation of “SO isn’t making an effort anymore and takes me for granted” to justify multiple emotional affairs including my most recent one. I’m learning that it’s also really important to step back and recognize the times when she’s really doing the best she can at that moment in time, given the battles that she’s fighting for herself. And then I try to find gentle and supportive ways to communicate the areas I’m feeling bad about (because I don’t think saying nothing and letting frustrations fester is good either) without being overly critical in a way that makes her feel bad or puts her on the defensive. Currently we’re having sessions with our marriage counselor twice a month, and it’s been really helpful for facilitating this communication.
“I think when spouses are out right mean and rude to each other it’s a lot worse than if one has let themselves go. ”
Absolutely agree! Inconsiderate communication (or worse!) is just another form of behaviour that arises when you have a sure thing and therefore don’t HAVE to make an effort to keep them. Our culture leads us to believe we have a right to be loved by by our spouses. But I don’t believe that is true, I think must continually earn it.
Hi Lovisa,
I am so glad to hear that! One thing I like about this website is the connection with others. I find it comforting that I am not the only person dealing with these problems. I hope, whatever path your friend ends up taking, it will helpful knowing that what he describes is pretty common- and that there are ways forward.
On another note- I read your most recent comment about your text conversation with LO3. It sounds like you are in a good place with limerence! Yay.
In general, it seems like you do not despair in the way that I did when I was in communication with my LO. I think we both are coming from very happy marriages. I am really curious why you think your experience has been different. Or maybe I misunderstand your feelings. I wonder if your experience with therapy has helped you have these people in your life without all the pain and misery? I am still trying to understand how I let things get so out of control. As always, I would love your perspective!
LE
Lol you posted that Fleetwood Mac song and I am like I’m gonna tell him my favorite song of their’s is Mama Told Me and then when I looked it up on youtube it was Three Dog Night lol I don’t know what is my favorite Fleetwood Mac song. Maybe Landslide? But I do like As Long As You Follow. Haha as much as my cousins and sister watched Top Gun cause OMG Tom Cruise, I’ve never been able to objectively watch that movie since lol.
Miss Lovisa
We had another talk about LO last night. We got some stormy weather and were sitting out on the porch together. I told her about something you posted. About how you said that LO awakened in me primal instincts as a man. I told her how much I realized now that is so true. And that LO’s daughters may have been a bigger part of that than I realized since I always wanted one of my own. Especially before LO found her gentleman friend. She agreed that I was trying to preside and protect LO and her daughters. And maybe that’s because of our sons’ age and the age we are in our marriage that LO being younger and in a different place in life I may have felt the need to protect her and her daughters.
We are making some progress. And she grabbed me by the shirt as I was trying to leave this morning and gave me another goodbye kiss. I think she will want her ring back soon. But I will keep it till she does.
Yay! That is wonderful. You two are talking and she is showing interest. This is so exciting!
Hi,
I am new to this site having searched “why is my crush so intense?” and “How do I get rid of my crush?”. It turns out I am probably well on my way to becoming limerent. Or perhaps I am already in a full-blown episode of it! I feel like I must take action now before it gets the better of me and messes up my (work)life. I have sometimes in the past had crushes on people. But this one is becoming particularly awful. And it is to do with a colleague.
My usual approach to workplace romantic thoughts is “I am here to work and work is work and my private life has nothing to do with it.” So far so good. To give some background, I have been unattached for 5.5 years. I ended my last relationship and honestly felt elated to have my spare time back to myself. I wasn’t in the mood for dating at all. When Corona hit, I enjoyed working from home and having lots of time to myself doing things I had put off for a long time. Romance was dead in the water and I never missed it.
At the beginning of the pandemic, a new colleague (LO) joined my company. He is in a department that has hardly any overlap with what I do. We were never introduced to each other and I only received the very occasional professional email message from him. Of course, I knew who he was back then. I saw him around the office a few times and thought to myself “ good-looking chap”. That’s as far as it went. I never thought about him at all (usually everyone is taken at my company anyway, although the thought he may not be married crossed my mind due to the absence of a wedding band).
Anyway, fast-forward late 2022: We moved to new offices. On the first day everyone was asked to attend. Walking around to familiarize myself with its layout everyone was friendly and said hi after months of WFH (& no contact with each other). Now, I walked past LO’s new office and he seemed very, very delighted to see me through the glass partitioning wall. I was slightly taken aback as we had still never talked to each other in person. But then I forgot about it again. Cue our office Xmas party three weeks later. I was still not “tuned into” LO. He was elsewhere in the room (cannot miss someone that tall) talking to a different group of people but then kind of slowly steered that group along the bar in my direction. From the corner of my eye (while talking to colleagues) I sensed his body facing me directly from far away. As he came closer, he stepped forward singling me out (I was surrounded by several others) to clink glasses with me (and only then with people to my left and right). This left me highly puzzled. That same night after dinner a colleague and I got up from the table and chatted to each other when I happened to look over her shoulder and see LO sitting further away, facing me , staring at me for what seemed like forever with a cheeky grin while talking to another male colleague. At this point I was on high alert and my alarm bells went off!
That’s when my LE started after not being interested in anyone for years!
In the first week back in the office (many still WFH; he and I now go in about 2 days per week – not always the same days) I overheard a very monosyllabic conversation he had with his boss who asked about his Xmas break and how he had spent it. He mumbled something I couldn’t understand and then went “her family”, which led me to believe he may have a partner. To this day I have no proof of this.
I have seen him on a few occasions but never had a proper 1:1 conversation with him. Often, colleagues will gather round the coffee machine first thing in the morning. On one occasion while I was talking to someone else, he came round the corner and went “I have been looking for you!” to then ask me a professional question. In the conversation amongst different colleagues that ensued (& wasn’t professional), he mirrored my body language twice (I payed attention after shifting it). Every time we meet downstairs by the coffee machine, he will make eye contact, smile and greet me (other colleagues often say hi just to the entire group without “personal attention”). Before Easter, I arrived there early in the morning as he was leaving with his coffee. He seemed extremely pleased to see me positively beaming at me (no one else does that in this manner). Two hours later I went to get another drink when he was down there with an external visitor going “We always seem to have the same timing!” I could just muster a “oh well, it’s the mid morning coffee” . He clearly wants to talk to me. While I am very sociable and will chat and joke with just about any one of my colleagues, I now have this huge mental block when he is around! I just don’t know what to do with myself. I get nervous and fidgety. I can hardly look at him. Although I want to meet him, I almost have this urge to escape now. It is so bad. I feel like a nervous teenager all over again. I am not sure if he has noticed or if he just thinks I don’t like him and don’t want anything to do with him. At the same time he is on my mind most of the time. I feel I must break this terrible cycle of feeding the obsession and growing more and more uncomfortable around him. It’s agony.
Welcome Lisa! I loved your story. Based on what you shared, I would guess that you are not limerent yet. There is a quiz you can take.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/are-you-a-limerent/
I caution you against daydreaming about your crush. The worst part of limerence is intrusive thoughts and I think they stem from daydreaming.
Good luck!
Lisa
How he acts around you is 100% familiar. Looking back at LO a lot of the behavior of his that you describe is how I acted around LO. The “trying to get close but keep distance” (in my case because I was married though LO was single when I met her) hot and cold act is so what I did. At the time I met LO I knew she was single because of information from other co-workers.
Like you with him, when I first met LO I had no such thoughts. I just enjoyed working with her as she was a nice and professional lady. It was only through working with her and getting to know her as a person that limerence started to develop. Perhaps this is the case with him. Over time he has gotten to know you and finds himself interested in you. On the other side of the coin, you have noticed him noticing you and stirred something in you.
I can’t say for sure, his thoughts behind is behavior, but I can attest through my own behavior with LO that this man has a definite interest in you and if he is unattached, like Speedwagon I would say why not give it a try? Ideally limerence is suppose to drive us to pair bond with someone to seal a long lasting bond between two people. Limerence is meant to be a good thing, it’s just that far too often people get one sided limerence which leads to heartache. Believe me, it’s been almost a year since the last time I saw LO and I’m just now seeing the light at the end of tunnel when it comes to repairing my marriage and making it up to my wife who has chose to give me a second chance.
Hi Lovisa,
Thanks for replying. The daydreaming has started and in my heart of hearts I just know limerence has set in.
It’s the toxic combination of someone I find very sexually attractive (there aren’t that many people I feel about in that way) paying me attention (!) and the uncertainty (I just don’t know for sure if he is attached. I also cannot just ask.). Whenever I hear that someone is “taken”, this usually kills all my interest. I would never want to get into any messy situation.
So, yes, at this point there seems to be the possibility that he is single and attracted to me. As I don’t see him that often, we are in a professional situation and I just cannot ask these questions, there is a high risk this will lead to a situation that remains forever unresolved. I cannot let that happen and am very tempted now to avoid him as much as possible. I think I would rather withdraw, go cold turkey and shut down even the tiniest possibility of this leading anywhere rather than having to suffer mentally for the foreseeable future and it blocking me from finding someone else suitable.
One thing is clear, I am ready to date again and would like to have a partner and a sexual relationship once more. Maybe online dating will provide a better forum for seeking out such a connection. It’s also less risky when things go pear-shaped
“l think I would rather withdraw, go cold turkey and shut down even the tiniest possibility of this leading anywhere rather than having to suffer mentally for the foreseeable future and it blocking me from finding someone else suitable”
Hi Lisa, if this man may be unattached and available, and he seems to show interest in you, and you definitely have interest in him, why can’t you snoop a little and find out his situation? There must be a common person you both know that maybe you could discretely ask? Uncertainty tends to be a big driver of limerence and finding out his situation may help you greatly. If he is attached maybe that then squashes your feelings. If he is unattached, maybe you take more initiative with him towards a relationship.
I’m not sure why you are running from this because he might be a potential partner if you are ready for one?
One month of NC today. I have resisted the urges to text her just to see how she is doing or keep her up on new office “drama” liked she asked before she left. I still think about her and miss her quite a bit but the incredible highs and lows have gone away.
What is wild is I almost feel bored now at work. There isn’t much to look forward to and it is just go in, do my job, and go home. I never want those crazy emotional swings back but it makes me wonder what needs the limerence was fulfilling in the first place. While there is nothing to dread there is nothing to look forward to as well.
Anyway, I’m doing well as could be expected. Time seems to heal many wounds. Hope all is well!
Hey Rufio…good to hear from you. I’m glad the highs and lows are gone. The lows are the worst and I’m glad you have stayed away from texting. If she wanted contact, she would have texted. I can understand the boredom now. Is there a way to potentially meet someone new and available? Maybe you are ready for that?
Things with my LO are in a fairly boring place now, we have our normal office interactions and that is it. Texting is over and I try not to take her on outings where we are alone, last time I did I hit a low after I was not comfortable with.
Now I just sit around and wonder how long I will continue to have feelings for this woman…months? Years? I daydream of her quitting and moving on and being able to be NC but that does not seem likely anytime soon. Oh well…I can manage the highs and lows well, but life is boring with LO now and there is that part of me that misses the drama…the pursuit of her.
Keep pushing forward!
Hang in there Speed!
I’ve done a few online dating things but it is kinda weird and annoying. Perhaps I’ll try a bit harder. I totally feel what you are saying about missing the drama. The “do they /don’t they” stuff. I miss her friendship quite a bit as well.
Also,
” If she wanted contact, she would have texted. ”
100% this. If she was still around this would devastate me. At this point it is mildly disappointing but I can also understand based on the dynamics of everything going on.
This just popped into my head last night and I thought I would respond. Again, thanks for the reply. I’m continuing to follow your story Speed. Wish you nothing but the best.
Sorry boys, that is not true. She may want contact and not reach out. She could be thinking the same thing that if Rufio wanted contact, he would text. She doesn’t want to bother people any more than you do. But I feel confident that Rufio’s LO is only interested in friendship so contact might have different meanings to Rufio and LO.
I forgot to say “Hi.” Hi Rufio and Speedwagon. I hope you’re both well aside from the limerence.
Sorry Lovisa, not sure I agree. She is the one that moved, made a life change, left her other life behind. Rufio is respecting that change and not reaching out. That’s the appropriate thing to do. I think it’s more on her to initiate if she wants to stay in touch. She hasn’t which says to me she has moved on.
Lovisa, Speed,
I thought I would return almost 2 months to the day she left and tell you guys I broke NC yesterday. We finally moved someone else into her old position so I thought it was a good reason as it was an interesting choice by management.
My texting her started an avalanche of texts back and forth(some full page stories from her) for over an hour about how things were going, the changes we’ve had at work and how much she missed us. I could tell she had been waiting to hear something from me. She also dropped another subtle little hint that she did indeed read the letter I wrote her and remembered it quite well when I asked about her wedding.
All in all it made me feel really good but not in the limerent kind of way. I think knowing I’m not going to actually see her helps. Our other friends at work were happy to know she was ok and enjoyed the pictures she sent me.
In the end it seems Lovisa was correct. She said she had “meant to text but is the worst at it”. She is in her mid 20’s so I know that is a crock of shiet but it made me laugh. She just didn’t want to bother me. Hope you guys are well!
Hey Rufio, welcome back. Nice to hear an update and I’m glad I was wrong I guess. Sounds as if she was happy to hear from you and I’m happy to hear that the feelings of limerence didn’t come flooding back. Curious how you left it with her? Do you think there will be more texting or was this a one off in your mind? It’s different now too since she is married, I think you have to consider that. But it’s good to hear that forced NC really worked out for you. I always thought it would.
I’ve been struggling more lately. Nothing has changed much, and I am still pretty good about being LC with LO, though I broke it a bit this last week. I’m just exhausted of it all. I still have heavy desires and thoughts for her whether or not I’m pursuing her or laying off. We still have great chemistry together when we do interact which keeps me hooked, but I just can’t get away from her, I have to work collaborate with her, and it’s not in my nature to be cold shoulder and I don’t want her feeling weird about me, so I just soldier on and manage as best as possible. Best outcome I can hope for is she has to quit her job for some reason and steps out of my life. But that doesn’t seem like it’s going to happen anytime soon. I’m pretty resolved to keep working at LC though because anything more and I just find myself fantasizing about a life with her which is more damaging than anything else.
Still keep us updated should anything new happen.
Rufio! It’s so good to hear from you. Thanks for the update. Of course she wanted to chat with you. I bet she enjoyed every minute of your conversation. It’s so kind of you to do that for her.
You give me hope. It sounds like things are going well. Do you feel like the limerence is gone? How are your symptoms? I am surprised that your contact with LO didn’t cause any lows. I think it’s a good sign.
I had a deep conversation with my LO last week that left me craving more. I started thinking, “This must be what it’s like for Speedwagon and the other limerents who see their LOs regularly.” Ugh. The cravings were unpleasant. I think I did the right things to move past it.
1. I didn’t reread our conversation.
2. When I caught myself daydreaming about LO, I reminded myself that daydreams lead to intrusive thoughts so I was able to stop.
3. I distracted myself by choosing a race to train for. Now I’m excited about my race and not thinking as much about LO. What’s really cool is that my SO wants to do a shorter distance at the same race. We’ll do it together. Woohoo! I am so happy!
@speed I really feel for you man. I know how you are feeling very well. I wish I had some words of wisdom or some way I could help. We left it fairly open ended and if anything worthy comes up I’m sure we’ll text again but it might be another two months.
@Lovisa “Do you feel like the limerence is gone? How are your symptoms? I am surprised that your contact with LO didn’t cause any lows. I think it’s a good sign.”
My limerence is definitely gone. The chances of me ever seeing her again are so slim that none of it seems to register on the LO meter. I still miss her at work because she was fun to talk with but my heart doesn’t ache to be near her anymore. I’m actually surprised how much I genuinely care about her though. I’m super happy that her wedding was awesome and that things in her life are going well. I think I’ll always be her friend.
Glad you got a handle on the situation Lovisa! Good luck in your race!!
Summer
I was the one that originally posted the link that sentence was a quote from if you would like read or not.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/askshaunti/2018/01/desire-husbands-dont-like-discuss/
I find that most women balk at a statement like that. The author of the blog post offers a very in depth and fair explanation about what she means when she says that men would like their lady “to make an effort”. But it is rarely ever discussed why men will never voice this concern/need. And if we are a partnership in marriage than both sides deserved to be heard and both sides should be able to respectfully voice their concerns/needs.
My personal take, I too like your husband feel more emotionally and physically attracted to my wife than when we met. She’s more beautiful than ever and that’s because she is more to me as a person inside and out than when we were first together in the honeymoon phase. I can appreciate her more now. And I want everyone to see that. If someone were to talk to her they could see that. When I walk with her I want everyone to see how beautiful she is. I want to show her off, so people know just how fortunate of a man I am. I mean look she’s till here by my side despite a LE I am still going through. But either way I walk with her with pride even when we did go to the store together last night and she was in sweats and a hoodie and looked like I just left church.
And for you ladies that have been with your man for a long time, I can tell you that despite how you may feel about your body and aging if he says he thinks you are sexy, beautiful, hot, gets him hot and bothered, believe him, cause he means it. I mean hell I got a little more than a goodbye kiss this morning before I left and I wanted to call into work. She can get me hot and bothered with just a kiss.
When my wife’s bipolar is not killing her libido and we are able to be together more, I try to say and do things that reassure her how I feel about her and her body. But sometimes you ladies have to do something to reassure yourselves. When my wife will buy “pretty things” to wear to bed, she always asks me if I like it. I’ve told her sometimes “why not buy something that YOU want to wear that makes YOU feel good and not just for me”. I think midlife is very different for women than men. I lost 40 lbs, cut my smoking back about 80% and changed my wardrobe. Meanwhile she is getting pulled lower and lower by her bipolar and my selfishness. Add to that our oldest son started college last August and lives on campus and I know that depresses her that she doesn’t get to see him often.
Now many would attest that to the limerence. But I think that the midlife is what caused the limerence which caused me to make the changes that made me quash the insecurities of being in midlife. My crisis was the limerence. Whereas my wife was taking her midlife completely different, I think. I am not sure, and I don’t want to speak for her. Plus I’d imagine bioplar, you husband limerent over a much younger woman, and all my insecurities about midlife weighed a lot on her.
Probably even more so than me. And from what I have read of some men’s midlife crisis, some go much worse and some ended long term relationships, limerence or not. I am fortunate to have a woman that is as loving and forgiving as my wife is. Now I have to make the biggest midlife change; be a better husband.
Hi Adam,
Wow. Thank you so much for explaining more. I definitively understand where you are coming from better. I will read the post when I get back from picking up my kids from school. I appreciate that you took the time to explain more. I really love (and rely on) this website, but sometimes I feel like the conversation feels more from a man’s perspective. Now- that may not be true. That may totally be my own issues- and I own that- but I guess that statement made me feel bad. I am SURE that was not your intent! (Like I said earlier, you don’t know me, but I follow the thread closely.
Ironically, I put a lot of time and effort into making my husband happy… so I’m not sure why it would be upsetting. I’ll have to read the article and think more about it.
Thank you, again for such a thoughtful response. Much appreciated.
You are very welcome Summer.
I can see where this place might seem male dominated. I does seem that men (especially my age and older) seem to be more susceptible to limerence than women. That said, of all the comments I have read across many of Dr L’s posts, it does seem that within female posters there are far more that are the spouse of the limerent than the other way around. I also see a variety of situations with female limerents. Whereas a lot of male limerents follow the formula of younger female co-workers. Not sure what these observations mean but I am very thankful for the ladies here that I have talked to and given me a woman’s perspective on things.
And I am sure husband appreciates all the effort you put forth. One thing you’ll find in the posted link is that it is the effort itself not the end result that we appreciate. You are amazing to us and we put forth our own efforts for you to know that. So the effort you put into yourself is reciprocating our efforts. Plus we think you wives of ours are amazing looking and want everyone else to see that.
As a Dr. L’s blog reader and occasional lurker of its comments section, I just wanted to point out that the LwL community-run forum has posts that are predominantly written by women. I’m guessing many of us felt more comfortable writing about limerence and sex in a more private space than in a more public blog comments section.
Hi Adam,
I am laughing a bit because I was skeptical going into reading the article, and then I found the “men” described pretty much fit my husband to a T. He is super visual, loves going out for adventures and appreciates the effort as much as the outcome.
I agreed with most of the article, although I think it could have been a bit more general. I think both sexes like it when their partner puts in the effort. My “love language” is definitely deeds, so I probably appreciate effort even more. It was a good article, and I’m glad I took the time to read it.
I feel mixed about the occasional male vibe on the website. As I have said, I am a long time reader and have read every article that Dr. L has posted. I have also commented under different handles in the past- although I can’t remember what they were.
I would say recently there have been many male commentators who are limerent for a co-worker, but that has not always been the case. It seems to ebb and flow, but there are plenty of women who are limerent. (For the record, my horrible, excruciating, experience with limerence was not with a co-worker.)
I know that although I rarely comment, I need this website. This website, talking to my one friend who knows about my limerence, and listening to podcasts really help me with intrusive thoughts and just staying the course. As I know everyone knows- limerence has this horrible way of flaring up just when things feel like they have gone back to normal. Anyway- for me, this website is super helpful at getting back to balance.
Sometimes when I read the comments that are (for lack of a better term) bro-ie, I feel excluded. In my life, I have had A LOT of unwelcome attention from men. Just a lot of unwelcome flirting (sometimes by superiors at work), comments, jokes at my expense- that kind of thing. Nothing horrible- thank goodness. It’s more a feeling of discomfort in some situations with overly enthusiastic men.
Anyway- I really don’t want to be the PC police (yuck, no thank you.) but I think sometimes- this article is a perfect example- it is helpful to maybe explain in more detail? Or maybe tone some of the jokes about redheads back? Just a bit? Just a tiny bit?
I am probably being overly sensitive. In fact, I’m going to go as far as to say that I am absolutely overly sensitive about this- especially as I just wrote about sex toys- which could be out of others’ comfort zone. 😂😂😂 but as I’m sure you know- limerence brings out the crazy in all of us.
Anyway, I appreciate the conversation and you listening. I have been following along with you, Adam since the beginning, and have been thrilled to read your most recent posts about your relationship with your wife. I know this post might not seem like it, but I have been silently cheering for you for a long time. I know you are fighting the good fight. Cheers.
Hi Adam,
I’ve been sitting with the article now and have one more quick thought. I think “effort” can get complicated because of a lot of stress us women feel in other areas of our lives. For example, I am a working mother (and have a high stress job), keep my house super clear and tidy, cook most of the food, am in charge of making sure all the activities, play dates etc. happen, make sure to reach out to all four of the grandparents, send out birthday cards/presents, buy clothing for everyone, make sure my husband is making doctors appointments…. etc. etc. etc… I also put a lot effort into my looks like staying in shape, doing my hair and make-up, looking put together in terms of my clothing… but I’m sure you can imagine how exhausting all of this can become. Sometimes I literally run out of time in terms of getting to the gym because I prioritize my family first. I would rather have a nice dinner on the table then work out even though I know in my heart that I need to work out in order to stay sane.
My husband is SUPER appreciative and supportive. I do all the things that I do because I want to do them, and they actually give me joy and purpose in life– but I think if I felt judged on the effort I put into my looks I would get really frustrated. On the flip side, I LOVE it when my husband recognizes all the things I do to make our life work. It makes me so happy.
Does that make sense? I think it might be why a lot of women get frustrated. It’s like- can’t you see everything else I am doing?
I know this isn’t what the article was saying- I’m just trying to explain why it that one line initially bothered me. 🙂
Thank you again for the conversation.