As I mentioned at the beginning of the year, I’m currently writing a book on limerence, and am now well past the halfway mark and generally happy with progress.
I’m working to an end of May deadline, and while I’d like to be a bit further ahead for my own comfort, I’m on course. But it does come with a cost. I’m currently doing three jobs, which is a bit silly. Four if you count parenting, which, you know, I certainly should.
I bring this up in the LwL Coffeehouse for a couple of reasons.
First, it’s possible that one of the commitments that may need to give way as deadlines tighten is the weekly blog post. I’ve kept an unbroken record for 7 years straight, and I’m reluctant to break the streak, but writing the blog and writing the book side by side is more challenging than I had expected. If it comes to a pinch point, I’m going to prioritise the book. I hope it won’t happen, but this is just a bit of a “managing expectations” post in case I have to skip a week.
The second, and much more constructive, reason for raising the topic is that when I finish the first draft I plan to review the whole book and identify ideas that I’ve overlooked.
Already, as I’ve been writing, I’ve been noting down some ideas or insights that I realise need to go in somewhere but haven’t found a place yet. My plan is to go back once I have a complete first draft and see where they would fit in. Some of these ideas have some hefty impact, so it would be a shame to miss them out.
In that spirit, for today’s topic of conversation in the Coffeehouse, I’d like to ask people to help with this process.
I have two specific questions:
- What’s the most useful nugget of wisdom you’ve discovered on LwL?
- What would you most like to learn about in the book?
All feedback appreciated, but, as ever, also feel completely free to fill up the comments with random ramblings!
Thanks All!
Nisor says
Hi Dr. L. Very glad your book on limerence is half-way done! Courage!
1) To answer your first question:
The most useful nugget of wisdom I discovered on LwL was the perfect description you give of the feelings I was having, of that “altered state of mind” that was driving me nuts without me knowing what it was or why it was happening. ( Still struggling with limerence).
2) What I most like to learn about in the book?
All about limerence! How to cope with it, how to handle grief after No Contact.
I suppose you want new readers of the book to know what you already have written on the blogs. Also, in the blogs , it mainly addresses people with SOs, but there’s a lot of young people without SOs that are struggling with limerence , ex. breakups and unrequited love, who search for information to relief their altered state of mind ; those would be interesting to know their perspective . It would be nice if they learned at an early age about limerence , to avoid so much suffering later on. That’s what many veteran limerents say, “if I only knew before “ about limerence… my two cents.
Best wishes on your book, and may you be able to finish on schedule. Have a nice weekend.
Nisor says
Dr. L, hi
Herewith, a Video on GRIEF by Neurologist Andrew HUBERMAN, from Stanford University; it’s a long one, but explains grief in a scientific way, and the researchers done on it.
The first eight minutes are advertisement, so skip it if you want. I know time is precious to you.
Have a wonderful fruitful day.
Nisor says
The name of the Video:
THE SCIENCE AND PROCESS OF HEALING FROM GRIEF, Andrew HUBERMAN .
Sorry I left it out in the original text.
Onyx says
Hello,
I get this – my SO is currently writing a book, at the same time as working a full time job and parenting. Best of luck juggling all that!
1) It’s very hard to drill this down to just one point. Probably the most important thing I have gained from the blog is that it is ok to feel like this about LO but simultaneously not to want to jeopardise my own marriage, or LO’s. I have had a lot of trouble reconciling those two feelings and it has been easier for me to choose not to act on the latter, once I was able to acknowledge that both are valid.
Maybe a second helpful point is the regular reassurance that it is very likely all in my head, despite whatever signs I try to convince myself LO has given me. It might be reciprocated, but even if it is, we have both chosen not to act on it.
Although I have been limerent twice in the past, this is the first time it has happened whilst I have been married and the first time my LO has been married. It look me by surprise at this stage in my life and using various blog posts to analyse why it is happening is helpful. This has led to me taking on a voluntary role (away from LO) which I probably would not have otherwise considered.
2) Coping strategies – both scientific theory and practical applications.
I’m also interested in whether you think there is a link between neurodiversity, specifically ADHD, and limerence. I’m hoping for something on that in a future blog post, not necessarily the book.
I like your writing style and the pictures keep the tone light. I will miss the blog if you decide to stop, but I also have a hunch that reading about limerence on a weekly basis is not helping me to move on.
Allie 1 says
“Probably the most important thing I have gained from the blog is that it is ok to feel like this about LO but simultaneously not to want to jeopardise my own marriage, or LO’s. I have had a lot of trouble reconciling those two feelings and it has been easier for me to choose not to act on the latter, once I was able to acknowledge that both are valid.”
I love this and completely agree! So well put… resolving the cognitive dissonance of married limerence with self-compassion, rather then by re-writing history.
Imho says
I also think Onyx’s post is spot on for me too, very well written ! Thank you.
The term cognitive dissonance has been on my mind quite a bit recently, so Allie it’s funny you used it in your message !
I will have to have a think about Dr Ls questions posed to us…..🤔
J says
+1 on Onyx’s post – same for me down to the marital situation and surprise that came with it. But a first for me. And yes: (part answer to 1 and 2) Being able to recognize this as a “oh, it’s not just me!” and realizing that, as much as it hurts like I never expected to experience outside a bad breakup or the loss of a family member, the need to let go, and “brace for impact” wen everything else in your gut is telling you that you can’t let this person go at any cost. It’s devastating, and I’m not out of the woods yet – but knowing you’re not alone goes a long way to knowing the way out, even when you don’t want to.
bubbles says
Definitely also interested in the connection between limerence and ADHD / neurodivergence. Personal experience of both and they seem to intertwine… A tip for Onyx, if you have ADHD: watch out for hyperfocusing on limerence content, it could become the new addiction! 😅
Onyx says
Bubbles – yes, that has occurred to me!
It’s possible I have ADHD but I don’t think a diagnosis would be particularly helpful for me, at this point in my life, so it’s not something I am planning to burden the already overworked healthcare system with.
LO, however, does have a diagnosis.
Limerent nurse says
The best thing for me about the blog and the book was the relief of finally having a name to this thing that has been a part of me all my life. The relief of knowing that limerence is not falling in love with my soulmate, nor some kind of spiritual attack from the enemy. It’s a chemical imbalance basically triggered from certain men that I perceive to be ideal in my mind.
The second best part of LwL is having others that can relate. I do not believe I have met another person in real life who truly understands what I experience, even if I try to explain it. Having the blog and the first book to give understanding and to guide me through the reality of limerence has been a great weight off my mind and shoulders.
The most useful nugget I have used is preventing any further limerence events by choosing to be low contact/no contact with men whom I perceive to possess my personal triggers. I feel I have successfully dodged a third potential limerence experience that was trying to start while I was reading the first book. Since it was just at the “glimmer” stage it was easier to fight it off than any full-blown limerent experience I had before.
I now enjoy a normal friendship/coworker-relationship because of the tools in the book and the LwL site. And I hope to prevent any further limerent experiences while married.
What would I like to read about in particular? That, I cannot say. Anything Dr. L writes is intelligent, witty and humorous, so I am sure whatever he comes up with will be a delight, and I look forward to it. 💙
Lovisa says
“ The relief of knowing that limerence is not falling in love with my soulmate, nor some kind of spiritual attack from the enemy. It’s a chemical imbalance basically triggered from certain men that I perceive to be ideal in my mind.”
I second this! I’m so glad that a brain scientist created a website about limerence instead of a philosopher!
Limerent Emeritus says
DrL,
1. The most useful nugget? For me LwL, when viewed from the perspectives of neuroscience and Attachment Theory, limerence explained my behavior patterns. Limerence dovetails with so many facets. My life makes sense. Put everything together and how things played out could have been predictable.
2. I guess since I’m pretty well on the far side of limerence, there’s nothing I particularly want to see.
I’m curious as to the scope of thr book. LwL covers a lot of ground. Posters on LwL fall into a whole bunch of groups,
– Limerents
– SOs of Limerents
– Attached Limerents
– Unattached Limerents
– Limerents who want to get out of limerence
– Limerence who want to become comfortable in their current pathology
– Limerents in early, middle, late limerence
I’m sure I missed a few. Then there are the neuroscience and psychological aspects.
LO #4 used one of the blogs I sent her as a basis for a chapter in her book. With respect to that topic, LO is the closest thing I will ever have to a protégé.
Lovisa says
1. What’s the most useful nugget of wisdom you’ve discovered on LwL?
The most useful nugget of wisdom that I learned on LwL is that INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS are caused by DAYDREAMING about LO.
A second useful nugget is that UNCERTAINTY creates obsessive behavior. I’m using this principle to train my guinea pigs to come when I call them. Sometimes I reward them with a tasty treat and sometimes I just pet their backs. Thanks for teaching me about uncertainty. I am also quick to respond to correspondence from my male friends because I don’t want to create uncertainty in them.
Thank you for pointing out that some limerents use LO daydreams for MOOD REGULATION and ESCAPE because it helped me to understand what I was doing. I also found alternative ways to regulate myself and escape.
TRANSFERENCE eliminated my intrusive thoughts so thank you for telling me about transference.
What would you most like to learn about in the book?
I would like clear definitions of the following
Limerence (consider addressing that the obsessive thinking isn’t always sexual and some people become limerent for an LO who would not be a potential mate)
Emotional affair (the definition varies)
I think HEALING HAPPENS IN COMMUNITY. I think the LwL community was necessary for my healing because I wouldn’t have talked as openly about my limerence if I didn’t have anonymity. I don’t know if I could have healed from limerence without this community. I don’t know how to advise a limerent to talk to someone because it can create other problems for the limerent, but I think there is wisdom in not walking this path alone.
THANK YOU, DR L!!!
frederico says
“The most useful nugget of wisdom that I learned on LwL is that INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS are caused by DAYDREAMING about LO.”
Well, that’s interesting and it will make me more aware. Of course, after four years I shouldn’t still be at that stage. Intrusive thoughts about LO grab me and knock me around first thing in the morning. Thank goodness for the radio.
The lovely guinea pig story, out of nowhere, made me smile.
Lovisa says
lol, thanks Frederico.
I got rid of my intrusive thoughts about LO2 by transferring to LO3 and I made a conscious effort not to daydream about LO3. It mostly worked. Whew! The intrusive thoughts are the worst. Watch this video if you haven’t seen it.
How to Deal with Intrusive Thoughts
by Mark Freeman
https://youtu.be/laeYq51SYA0
Have a great day, Frederico!
frederico says
Will do x
Serial Limerent says
I agree with wanting a clear definition for an EA. I’ve seen it all over the place. Also, there should be a third category. You hear “emotional affair” and “physical affair,” which includes sexual–but what about the in-between where there is no sex but there is hugging, kissing, etc.? The dynamics are different in each case, and I find it very frustrating, especially when googling questions. I suggest EA, PA (for physical without sex) *and* SA.
Lovisa says
I like your suggestion.
Nisor says
Hi Serial limerent,
Hugging and kissing is sexual as defined by Esther Perel and other sexologists. Even touching, talking , in a certain way is sexual. Sexual is not only limited to the act of penetration. There’s a lot of sexuality in foreplay before the climax/consummation in a relationship. Perhaps, that’s why Google cannot address your question?
Have a wonderful week.
Lost in Space says
There’s probably a few factors that determine whether a type of touching is considered sexual or not, and it’s going to vary from couple to couple.
For me, I consider hugging to be part of an emotional affair, because:
1) I hug lots of people
2) I’m comfortable hugging other people in front of my SO
3) My SO has no problem with me hugging other people
On the other hand, I believe that kissing my LO would cross the line into physical affair because:
1) I don’t kiss anyone except my SO
2) I wouldn’t ever kiss another person in front of my SO
3) My SO would not be ok with me kissing other people under any circumstances
I think most of us also know what we’re getting from any type of physical contact. Is it primarily emotional connection, or is it sexual gratification? On the occasions when I do hug my LO, I can honestly say it feels much more like an emotional act rather than a sexual act – I think we both feel reassured and safe and cared for and connected, but it doesn’t feel sexual. A kiss on the other hand seems like it would be clearly sexual and would almost inevitably lead to more sexual activity.
I’ve also always strictly avoided the temptation to rub LO’s shoulders when she’s feeling stressed and worn out. Even though in isolation that would generally be considered a non-sexual type of touching, I think it would be too dangerous for us, because it would get us too comfortable with more prolonged physical contact than just a few second hug, and I’d see it as a likely gateway into a sexual affair.
Marcia says
Lost in Space,
“I hug lots of people”
Is a hug or is it a HUG?
I think anytime the pelivses are touching … it’s getting sexual.
You can sometimes watch two people who seem to be on a date and are greeting each other and tell if they’re into each other just by the way they hug.
Body language gives it away.
MJ says
Any sort of touching can lead to arousal. Once it becomes arousal, it is PA.
Marcia says
MJ,
“Any sort of touching can lead to arousal. Once it becomes arousal, it is PA.”
Everyone is looking for a way to bend the rules as far as possible. 🙂
Adam says
Hugs I think are a no go. But than my wife is pretty much the only woman I hug, say besides my mother. Never been much of a huger so any hugging by me of another woman would be greatly suspect as to my motives.
Lovisa says
My understanding of “sexual relations” is any contact with another person’s external reproductive organs with or without clothing.
I don’t think touching, snuggling or even kissing is sexual. I think it is intimate, but not sexual. Hugging is absolutely not sexual. Ewe! I hug many people everyday and it is definitely not sexual.
MJ says
“I don’t think touching, snuggling or even kissing is sexual. I think it is intimate, but not sexual. Hugging is absolutely not sexual. Ewe! I hug many people everyday and it is definitely not sexual.”
I agree, but again I think it comes back to the level of which a person can be a attracted to another. Touching any part of another person can lead to thoughts of intimacy. I used to hug my Sister in Law all the time and while it may not have appeared to be outright sexual, and I really wasn’t trying to come on to her, “I” always felt a twinge of arousal being close to her like that, which increased my desire to do it all the more. Which became a very slippery slope and now I am single.
The level of arousal (If any) is the litmus test of attraction.
Marcia says
MJ,
“The level of arousal (If any) is the litmus test of attraction.”
Have you never touched/kissed/had sex with someone you weren’t all that attracted to because an opportunity was there? Does that mean the intention wasn’t sexual because the arousal wasn’t super high?
I would not want an SO kissing or snuggling up on another woman. We can argue whether it’s sexual or not or if it’s an affair.
But I think a good number of people would think both were crossing the line.
And kissing can be deeply sexual depending on what is involved/what happens.
Adam says
My favorite writer Charles Bukowski wrote (I believe it was in his book Women) “I think kissing is more intimate that ****ing.” And I completely agree with him. Sexual intercourse is part of the survival of the species and while we like to fancy ourselves “beyond” our biological urges, we are not. Kissing another man or woman however is a deliberate and active choice.
Marcia says
Adam,
“Sexual intercourse is part of the survival of the species and while we like to fancy ourselves “beyond” our biological urges, we are not”
We fight our urges every day. If we didn’t, it’d be open Porkopolis.
But I agree with you about the kissing. It’s extremely intimate. It’s why a lot of sex workers won’t kiss but will do everything else.
MJ says
“Does that mean the intention wasn’t sexual because the arousal wasn’t super high?”
@Marcia
Perhaps I should have worded it, “Can be a litmus test of attraction”
I was trying to consider myself in situations where I knew what my end-game was and usually I was attracted.. However, I have had my share of situations that were not all about attraction. It was about “getting off”. So yes it by all means becomes just sexual.
What I find attractive in a Woman, my buddy may not see or feel it the same. I think it’s when people start touching each other in any sort of way, is when excitement can erupt within and causes arousal. Which leads to etc, etc.. For myself, that often led to deeper attraction.
Marcia says
MJ,
“So yes it by all means becomes just sexual.”
I wasn’t clear. I don’t think we can use the barometer of someone being turned on or attracted to say the touching is sexual/romantic in nature.
Lovisa says
MJ, I’m curious about how you’re using the word arousal. Can you tell me what you mean by “arousal?”
Thanks for explaining what could happen when you hugged your sister-in-law. I’ve suspected something like that with some men who solicit hugs from me. Ugh. Now I know. Time to rethink who I am willing to hug. Gosh darn it.
Nisor says
Hi Marcia,
“Everyone is looking to bend the rules as far as possible.”
You bet. But consciously we know why we’re doing it… we’re talking about hugging and kissing and touching a person we like, or the LO, not family or loved friends. It is said the skin is the largest sexual organ of a person. One knows when you do touch intentionally . It’s no sin to demonstrate your intimate feelings to a person you like, unless you’re doing it surreptitiously. One knows that if you’re married or partnered you have no business touching someone else or viceversa. Let’s not kid ourselves. We’re mature people and know better, unless one is so naive…
Good day to all.
Marcia says
Nisor,
“One knows that if you’re married or partnered you have no business touching someone else or viceversa. ”
I don’t believe that was universally agreed upon, no.
MJ says
“MJ, I’m curious about how you’re using the word arousal. Can you tell me what you mean by “arousal?”
@Lovisa,
By arousal, I mean being turned on sexually. Like when a person is touching any part of another person that they are attracted to. A simple touch could spark arousal within them. While at the same time keeping it cool under the guise of being innocent and meaning nothing more.
Hugging my Sister in Law sparked arousal in me after awhile. When she was intoxicated, she had a habit of prolonging that hug. My mind turned to mush. I don’t need to mention what that led to next.
The Men that hug you may infact have no sexual intent or interest in you like that. But how will you ever truly know, unless they make it that obvious?
It may be time to rethink as you said.
Adam says
“We fight our urges every day. If we didn’t, it’d be open Porkopolis.”
Nisor
Sure we do. Hopefully we do when it is the right thing to do. But “one night stands” and one off affairs happen for a reason. Sometimes we do give in to our throbbing biological urges. Kissing is a learned behavior and a choice we make to do with someone. Sex doesn’t always have to be intimate. (I know from trying to conceive our first son. There were times literally all she needed was my seed when she was fertile whether I had a 16 hour work day or not.) But it can be. Kissing is always intimate. And something I only practice with my wife.
Maybe this explains my earlier comment better.
Nisor says
MJ, hi
On the theme of arousal. When my LO was snooping on me way before we met, he had seen me kiss on the cheek the elevator old man, (it was a huge building with many elevators, and the old man, in formal uniform, guiding the people to the next available lift), I did it innocently and didn’t think much of it, that is an innocent kiss. But when finally LO got the courage to approach me, and we were by the fourth date, he mentioned it to me. He said he had seen me kiss Charlie on the cheek, the elevator man, and that it was not right, because, even if I didn’t mean anything by it, it may mean something else to him and give him pleasure, and even talk about to others in a sneaky way. I understood it, and stopped doing it. Also he told me , men in the bathroom talked a lot of garbage to each other’s “trespassing“ , even if it were not true, about how they get a kick out of touching some workers in the office… he used the word “conniving “ to address them.
Also, my LO had observed me being given priority at the coffee shop by the manager, and he would sit with me at the table, and LO brought it to my attention, that it would give him a chance to boast at how he may have something going on with me, when in reality it was not. LO was very strict and had a keen eye to read in between lines… He trusted no man, only his brother could get close to me.
Also my SO, can tell if someone is acting phony with a woman , or viceversa , when we go out. It’s a well known secret among men.
Have a good day.
Adam says
“One knows that if you’re married or partnered you have no business touching someone else or viceversa.”
Nisor
Physical touch is my love language and a powerful thing to me. I can tell the difference between my wife grabbing me squeezing behind me in the kitchen to get by me and when she is affectionately touching me for her own 😉 agenda. Touch is not something I hand out like candy to others. Outside of a handshake I wouldn’t ever think of touching another woman. To me, it is a clear boundary crossed that just goes downhill from there. So I totally agree with you.
“Time to rethink who I am willing to hug. Gosh darn it.”
Miss Lovisa
I wouldn’t take the opposite road from what you are comfortable with. There’s a male member of my wife’s family that gives out unsolicited hugs, no matter gender and it’s really weird to me. I wouldn’t say any man that hugs you has ulterior motives, it is just not something I do. I think that there is a huge difference in you initiating hugs with men than them initiating with you. You are setting the standard for hugs not them. So if they get some by product feeling from you hugging them that’s on them not you. But vice versa that’s a different story as they are seeking out that by product by hugging you.
Lost in Space says
Marcia wrote “Lost in Space,
“I hug lots of people”
Is a hug or is it a HUG?”
I totally agree there are hugs and there are HUGS… I do hug lots of people, it’s how I say hello and goodbye with family and a lot of my friends (both male and female). I hug other athletes after a good competition. I hug coworkers when they’re having a rough day. I occasionally hug my patients when they need emotional healing. Those are all non-sexual types of hugs for me.
My hugs with SO are sometimes of the familial type but other times they’re of the sexier type – you know, those hugs that start with that special little look, pelvises touching, hands roaming, little kisses, bodies moving in time… that might happen at 2pm on a Saturday in the kitchen with the kids nearby and no chance of it leading to anything more at the time, but it’s a sexy little snippet of intimacy between me and SO and that’s a kind of hug I only share with her.
If I ever had a hug like that with LO, I’d consider us to be crossing into a PA, but our hugs have never been like that. Our hugs are warm and loving but not sexual, because we’ve always made such a point to avoid any hint of sexual connection with each other. Our hugs are more like big comforting bear hugs, I’ll wrap my arms around her and she’ll lay her head on my chest and we’ll just hold each other like that for the span of a few deep breaths feeling warm and loved and secure, and then we go our separate ways. Those hugs are wonderful and I find them very fulfilling and sufficient in and of themselves without feeling like I need them to be “more” – I actually really treasure those moments of connection so much and I strongly believe that if I ever abused one of those moments by turning it into a “sexy hug”, it would end up ruining everything for everybody.
Marcia says
Adam,
” Kissing is always intimate. ”
I see what you’re saying, but I’m going to disagree. Kissing can be as mechanical as sex. Any kind of physical contact can be mechanical. Trust me on this one. 🙂
Lost in Space says
Actually when I think about it, when I hug LO I feel very little temptation to sexualize the hug – I don’t find myself struggling with temptations to slide my hands anywhere they shouldn’t go or kiss her or anything like that.
Rather, the biggest struggle for me when we hug is to keep myself from saying the words “I love you”, because that always seems to want to come out. But I keep that inside my head and I know it just needs to be understood and felt but not said out loud.
Marcia says
Adam,
“There’s a male member of my wife’s family that gives out unsolicited hugs, no matter gender and it’s really weird to me. ”
I don’t know about the family member, but I think a guy asking a woman, “Can I have a hug?” is weird and beyond cringey. A co-worker, for example. I’d have married guys at work ask me that, and it just seems like a sanctioned way to cop a feel. It skeeved me out.
Lovisa says
Thanks, Lost in Space. Casual hugging is common in my social circle. I was getting worried that it meant more to other people than it means to me. I’m not so worried now. My SO is a big hugger, his whole family are big huggers. I’ve seen my SO snuggle my girlfriends and it doesn’t look sexual at all. He is just friendly. This conversation had me questioning things, but I’m not questioning it after you described the casual hugs that you exchange with other people. I have a male running friend who I hug and we exchange “I love yous” but I’ve never felt a sexual vibe from him. I’ve also seen him greet men the same way he greets me. I think casual hugging is different for everyone. Unfortunately, I can’t read minds. I don’t want to trigger sexual feelings in someone, but I can’t know in advance who is triggered by a hug and who isn’t.
I used to live on an island where hugging and kissing was the standard greeting. You hug and kiss on the cheek. It was so normal that I didn’t think anything of it. When we had visitors to our church from the states, I would get so excited to see someone that I could relate to. I would hug and kiss the female right away. I’d forget to consider that she wasn’t used to that type of greeting. And since I look like a Latina, she would assume that I was a friendly islander. I still remember the looks of confusion. It was unintentional on my part, but still funny. Give that woman a few days and she starts hugging and kissing everyone, too. I thought I would hate all the hugging and kissing because I am a bit germaphobic, but I liked it. My SO prepared me for it because he had already lived in a culture like that. He knew we would have to get used to it. It was quite lovely.
I feel strongly that hugging, kissing and even snuggling can be non sexual. I don’t think it falls into the affair category. However, you and Marcia are right that there is a difference between a hug and a HUG. I guess if you wouldn’t do it with your parents or your child, then you’re probably crossing a boundary.
Adam says
Miss Marcia
Maybe that’s the western society talking, when hugs and kisses are reserved for romantic encounters. Like Miss Lovisa said where she was from it was a standard greeting. But I agree with you about wanting to hug someone not your romantic partner or family. And even then I don’t hug my family members or my wife’s family unless they just come over and grab one from me. Those two things are very exclusive to my wife. Even when I was dating all I did was hold my date’s hand. No hugs or kisses. To me those are very intimate things.
Marcia says
Adam,
“Maybe that’s the western society talking, when hugs and kisses are reserved for romantic encounters. ”
I don’t know that hugs have to be reserved for romantic encounters. A family member. A close friend, sure. But some random co-worker at work … can I have a hug? … that’s an attempt to see if they can get beyond the hug and how far you’ll let them go.
But kissing? A quick kiss on the cheek from grandma. But other than that, it’s getting romantic.
And if you (the universal “you”) have strong feelings for someone, whether or not your intention is sexual, it’s probably best to not touch them at all. If one or both of you is not available.
Allie 1 says
Such an interesting discussion! I think it is hard to some up with a single common definition of what constitutes an EA or a PA as every as person and every couple has their own unique boundaries of what is acceptable to them within their relationship. Secrecy vs transparency would be at the heart of any definition I suspect.
i.e. I think you can only use the “affair” word at all if you are doing something you could not (and do not) tell you partner about frankly and honestly. For me personally, if my SO was seeing someone and hiding it from me, that would be an affair of some sort. If he enjoyed the company of a woman, was attracted to her, spent time with her and flirted with her, so long as he is completely transparent about it with me, and I confirmed to him that I was OK with it, that would not be an affair.
If you are with someone you are attracted to, and you hug/shoulder rub/ touch/etc them in a way that gives one or both of you both sexual pleasure, that is the point where it just about edges over the line into a PA for me.
Jaideux says
Yay! I look forward to the book! And if you miss a week, we can just go back and read old blogs and comments like rewatching a favorite movie.
The most outstanding things I’ve learned from LwL:
1. There are dodgy LOs out there who collect limerents for sport.
2. The ‘waxing hot and cold’ behavior of LOs is rocket fuel for the condition.
3. Limerence is an addiction.
4. Limerence dies when not fed. Freedom is possible and within grasp.
5. Those of us with a predisposition to limerence will experience it repeatedly until we know how to identify the glimmer and put up shields.
6. Limerents are somewhat unique and have inner depth and complexity.
7. Turning a LO into a platonic friend is almost impossible. (If we’re honest).
8. Happiness of a more meaningful kind is possible post LE.
9. Limerence is not necessarily love.
10. We deserve more than a limerent fantasy!
frederico says
I like the list, Jaideux, and the numbered points. It’s a good way to view the similarities and the differences as a result of our different experiences.
1) I can understand this although I don’t think it applies to my LO. Can I be absolutely sure though? Also I have had two women be limerent for me over the past twenty years. To my shame, each time until I was in very deep indeed, I had no idea and I just thought that I had met a lovely friend who liked gay men!
3) Yep, for sure.
4) Ye gods, I certainly hope that is true.
7) Yes, I have recently accepted that this is so true.
8) That’s really encouraging.
Jaideux says
Hi there Frederico,
Some limerent objects are not dodgy! They are just innocent souls that we glimmer for. In fact, there is a fellow who to my horror and discomfort has been limerent for me most of my adult life! I avoid him as much as I can but occasionally our paths cross and his limerence for me goes through the roof. It’s so disturbing. And I am not dodgy at all, I promise!
As far as #8 : it will happen. It takes time and a healthy environment for the heart to heal, but heal it will. 🙂
Bewitched says
Dear Dr L,
I can’t improve on Jaideux’s list and especially want to reiterate the helpfulness (for me) of points 3 & 4
3. Limerence is an addiction.
4. Limerence dies when not fed. Freedom is possible and within grasp.
It really is a matter of convincing your self to stop ruminating and self-medicating on this person and (voila!) you begin to feel a bit better and symptoms start to ease. Even if they do not, awareness of what you are doing to yourself and the irrelevance of what the LO does or does not do, is very illuminating.
I think something else that could be useful might be intersections, so the association between the tendency to develop limerence and other human conditions including: OCD, introversion, highly sensitive person, addictive personality, etc. I hesitate to call these ‘disorders’ because not all of them are….
I also think that I would really enjoy reading a chapter with some of the memorable quotes that posters have made. Frederico already mentioned Marcia’s classic
“One of the hardest things to grasp as a limerent is that it doesn’t matter what you do. Call the LO. Don’t call. Text. Don’t text. Plant yourself in places so you can run into them. Or don’t. None of it matters and it won’t change anything.” – this is a classic!
But there have been many others over the years – I remember some which were more illustrative of the ‘highs’ of limerence (including a few very colourful contributions from Rainbowbrite that resonated deeply with me at one point).
Your book needs to get across your humour, which is a godsend. Us limerents can be a serious, broody, melancholic bunch 🙂 !!
Jaideux says
Dear Bewitched,
Thank you so much for pointing out the need for Dr.L to fill his new book up with his clever humour.
I’ve been thinking about this since the blog came out.
The hilarious photos and amusing “turnings of a phrase”are balms for wounded hearts and relief from our “broody, melancholic” selves as you so eloquently put it.
Allie 1 says
Great list Jaideux! I second all of this with nothing to add.
Jaideux says
🥰 thanks Allie!
Sammy says
@Jaideux.
I like your list. Points 3 and 6 stand out the most for me.
“3. Limerence is an addiction.”
Perhaps one question limerents might like to ask themselves is: “Can you pinpoint the moment limerence felt like it went from a pleasant fantasy to an addiction for you?”
I’d hazard a guess that the LO does or says something (often very slight) that nonetheless reinforces the idea in the limerent’s mind that they (the LO) might be up for a romantic relationship. The limerent then feels like they have LO’s permission to fantasise (because of perceived dropped hints). Fantasies turn into intrusive thoughts and intrusive thoughts form the basis of person addiction.
“6. Limerents are somewhat unique and have inner depth and complexity.”
I think most limerents are introverts. Introverts have a very rich inner world, and this rich inner world can often overshadow what’s going on in the outer world i.e. the world that extroverts inhabit.
I think a lot of limerent inttoverts (INFJs/INFPs) can’t tell the difference between an “imaginary relationship” and an “emotional affair”, but they still feel guilty about their strong emotions/misplaced loyalties anyway.
Hint: it’s not an emotional affair if your LO is single and denies it’s an emotional affair. It’s probably just a friendship with a weird fantasy overlay and half the time the LO (if a sensor type) isn’t even aware of this weird fantasy overlay.
Speedwagon says
For me answer to question #1 is this:
Limerence is not a luminous, I found my soul mate situation. It’s just a person addiction. I like to call my intense romantic desires for LO my bad brain chemicals. Once I realized this I realized it could be managed and it did not need to hi-jack my life.
Question #2:
Strategies to manage limerence when NC is not possible. How do you coexist with an LO. I am of the opinion NC is the answer to 99% of LEs but sometimes NC is just not possible even if desired.
I also agree with everything Jaideux wrote
Jaideux says
“Bad brain chemicals”. I like that, Speedwagon.
frederico says
I look forward to reading the new book, Dr L, and I very much hope that it will increase the general awareness and understanding of limerence.
I hesitated to post a comment, in case it somehow becomes a further trigger for my own limerence, but I feel somewhat triggered at the moment anyway.
1) The most useful nugget of wisdom I’ve discovered on LwL is that there is only one way out of what to me is an awful state of mind. That is: No Contact combined with Purposeful Living.
That’s hardly rocket science to anyone here. I have read all the relevant blogs and comments dozens of times. The thing is, I learned the principles and I carefully studied the results of other people’s experiences but I did not fully accept them for my own situation. The power of limerence was so strong that I instinctively constructed loopholes and workarounds, all to no avail.
Actually, as someone who is now older and, perhaps inevitably, not fully fit, I like to think of Purposeful Living more in terms of Distractions and Mindfulness. I don’t know much about mindfulness but I have recently been trying to live very much in the moment and to banish any intrusive thoughts as soon as I realise what is happening. It has worked to some degree. Last week, with some trepidation because of the journey, I took a very long train trip to visit some good friends and I stayed at their house. My thoughts of my LO were much fewer because of the distraction. Early mornings were still a bit dodgy.
It feels right to mention here that I have learned a lot from your altruism, your patience and your humorous approach, together with the diverse array of comments from the punters. It has made me less grumpy. A comment that grabbed my attention about a month ago was this one from Marcia. I love the way it simply cuts to the chase:-
“One of the hardest things to grasp as a limerent is that it doesn’t matter what you do. Call the LO. Don’t call. Text. Don’t text. Plant yourself in places so you can run into them. Or don’t. None of it matters and it won’t change anything.”
2) What I would most like to learn about from the book is how on earth I came to be limerent to this seemingly overwhelming degree. Some clues about links to childhood experiences, perhaps without the complications of personality-type labels, would always be helpful. Also, the blog about the Neuroscience Of Limerence is one that I have read several times. Sadly, I cannot always remember all the details but I think, especially to the uninitiated, this sort of information is likely to be very helpful indeed and will provide some reassurance.
I am single, without the advantages, or the complications, of ever having been in a relationship, so my situation should perhaps be simple. It doesn’t quite feel that way. My has LE lasted for four years. I have decided that there will be no more excuses and that I must make sure it ends. I think my attempts to keep an underlying friendship on the back burner, so that all would be well one day, were pie in the sky. It just doesn’t work. My irresistible temptation was to send Birthday cards, Christmas cards and occasional presents to the little girl. I am forcing myself to close that loophole.
There has been No Contact since Christmas – I’ve said that in previous years, I seem to recall.
I feel a bit angry with my LO at the moment and I am trying to use that emotion to help me see him more realistically. Our friendship, originally as neighbours, became very strong, or so I thought. His affectionate messages and exchanges became so exciting and addictive that they seemed to light up my life. I never actually realised that we were having some kind of EA, especially as he is much younger, and I just enjoyed the experience until it became too late. The responsibility for everything was 50/50 I would say.
I do not believe for one moment that he ever tried to be manipulative. He may have wanted a bit of a father-figure friend. I don’t think that is quite what I turned out to be. He is a slightly nervous people-pleaser, with a delightful friendly demeanour, and I felt elated by the considerable boost to my self-esteem.
There were clues that things were going sour. He has a SO, and a little daughter now, and he has moved away so it’s not really that surprising. After having helpfully listened to me when I was deciding on what medical treatment to opt for, he said that he would “support me all the way” whatever I decided. The ghosting came suddenly when I was just about to have the treatment and so it’s not difficult to harness a bit of emotion from that. The sensible me realises that it would be a bit of a tall order to expect someone, who may be a bit naïve and who befriended me as a neighbour, to actually stick by me through thick and thin, especially as he is a lot younger and has family responsibilities. He may also now be embarrassed about having so cordially invited me to visit the new home – the invitations were spurious – his parents live next door.
I very much hope that if I don’t make any further contact, and I try to keep busy with other things, the limerence will inevitably fade. I try to picture limerence itself as the brilliant, iridescent, tempting lizard in one of the historic blogs pictures. Now I just have to be very careful indeed not to prod the lizard or give it the time of day.
Jaideux says
Another thing I’ve learned from LwL is that most LO’s are younger, sometimes much younger than the limerent. I think the LO thinks it’s “safe” to get platonically close, the limerent finds the youthful LO, combined with active limerence, irresistibly intoxicating as subconsciously the cocktail of the two makes limerents feel young and energetic and creative and curious just as they once were when they were young.
That’s a difficult drug to give up.
It is possible however to be adventurous and fun and young in spirit, to be strong and healthy and creative even as one ages, and much less risky to be this vibrant person without the catalyst of limerence.
It can be done! But it takes determination and self respect and genuinely liking oneself.
Then the sparkling person we are is real, not a fraud that was manipulated by limerence.
Lovisa says
I’m sorry you’re struggling right now, Frederico.
frederico says
Thank you, Lovisa. Your kindness is very much appreciated. I have learned a lot from you over the past couple of years.
Yes, I am struggling right now but many, many people are in worse situations.
I now need to do the “right thing” and I think everything will be alright. We live and learn.
All best wishes to you and your family.
f
Sammy says
@frederico.
I would like to respond to your comments. I don’t want to trigger you in any way. However, as a fellow man and as a fellow gay man, I would like to help steer your emotional responses very gently in a direction you might find helpful…
“The most useful nugget of wisdom I’ve discovered on LwL is that there is only one way out of what to me is an awful state of mind. That is: No Contact combined with Purposeful Living.”
I actually think the answer is even more simple than this in emotional terms. Let’s look at limerence in purely emotional terms. Limerence is obsession. The only true escape from obsession is your brain fully accepting that your LO doesn’t return the obsession (and thus you have no reason to be obsessed with him).
If you want to be free emotionally from limerence, you must accept that your LO isn’t obsessed with you. You must accept that he doesn’t reciprocate the powerful feelings you have for him. It’s very hard to reach this conclusion cognitively on your own, however, because you want to keep getting hits of dopamine from the interaction.
The interaction feels so good on a chemical level you want it to continue indefinitely. No contact/purposeful living, while not an instant cure, over a long period of time, will help get your dopamine production back on track. But, emotionally-speaking, you need to accept this person isn’t your person and is never going to be your person. He belongs to himself. Maybe in loving him so deeply what you’re really trying to do is love certain aspects of yourself? 🤔
“My irresistible temptation was to send Birthday cards, Christmas cards and occasional presents to the little girl. I am forcing myself to close that loophole.”
Admit to yourself you met a man, a very nice man no doubt, and you felt a special connection to this man. Admit to yourself also you hoped that this man would feel the same level of special connection to you. You were looking for a unique attachment to this man – a unique attachment that this man also recognised instinctively and valued.
There’s nothing wrong with feeling tremendous warmth toward another human who seems special. That proves you have a big heart. There’s nothing wrong with craving deep attachments in general. All human beings are wired for connection. Connection is essential for our survival as a species. What’s wrong is trying to impose said attachment on another person if said attachment isn’t happening naturally. It seems to me like that the special level of connection you desired was only happening inside the hearts of one of you.
“I feel a bit angry with my LO at the moment and I am trying to use that emotion to help me see him more realistically.”
Anger is totally understandable, and it can be useful at times. However, anger is also an emotion that prevents us from detaching from LO. Anger (and other negative emotions) actually strengthen the fantasy bond, and keep us trapped in rumination. You need to find a way to move from anger to sadness. Sadness is what will help you flush the obsessive part of the connection out of your system.
“I now have a bit of a lump in my throat …”
That is an interesting choice of words. “Lump in throat” is actually one of the physiological symptoms of limerence that people feel when rejection seems imminent. (The other two symptoms are pain in midpoint of chest and pain in lower intestines, as if someone has just punched you in the gut). If someone feels a lump in their throat, that usually is an indication that that person wishes to cry. Crying is the behaviour that naturally follows lump in throat. You don’t need to hold it all in. Give yourself permission to cry when you feel the need to cry.
Big hugs to you, mister. Take care of yourself. 🙂
frederico says
Hello Sammy. Thank you for taking the time to let me have your kind thoughts, which I have taken on board. I am still in a dark place with all this and my latest strategy of complete NC, with no more hope, and positive awareness of banishing the intrusive thoughts as they occur, simply has to work now.
It’s difficult to fathom my LO to some degree because in the past he sent me affectionate messages such as “Merry Christmas, My Love” and he sometimes constructed beautiful messages using hearts and the range of emoji images. I did not think through what was happening. So I would say that the limerence was once entirely mutual except that, even so, I did not fully realise it.
He is no longer “obsessed” because it became impossible for him and/or it faded when he moved away, I think; he has a new life and he may have gone through all sorts of emotions. I don’t know. In many ways it doesn’t matter because he clearly no longer wants any contact and I too realise that I must demolish the limerence on my part.
It’s tough but this is what can happen if you don’t understand the dangers of what you initially perceive to be an exciting friendship.
Adam says
frederico
My dear friend this man’s behavior towards you is bizarre to me. Please take my comment with a grain of salt and please don’t take offense. I am a man of old school. I know you are older than me my friend. But please forgive me for what follows. I mean no disrespect to your LO. I only say this out of the adoration I have for our exchanges.
My personal take on your LO is that I wonder if he is using you to test the waters of his own sexuality. I don’t know any “straight” (god I hate that word) man that would behave the way your LO does. “My love”? That’s really suspect to me. I get the feeling that he is using you as a bisexual guneia pig for his own test. He doesn’t want to go “all in” but he wants the reward he gets without the commitment by contacting you and indulging in this way. And that’s unfair to you. Granted I know nothing about anything outside of heterosexuality but as said person I know, I, at least would never behave towards another man that way, especially (if he knows you are) a homosexual man as he does to you.
Forgive me my friend. I don’t mean to offend. I’m not trying to be x-phobic. I just am just looking out for your heart. I hate to see you hurting.
This is just a thought that has been jumbling around in my brain for a long time since we met. I have been trying to articulate how to express it all this time. I hope that I said it well here now.
Maybe we can have a drink together someday. As long as it’s not white wine or tequila I’m good lol
frederico says
Adam, thank you for your kind words too and, of course, nothing that you say is ever offensive.
I have only been able to confide fully with one wise friend in real life, whose opinion I value. He felt that LO may have had some doubts about his sexuality. Looking back, that does seem to have been very possible and it makes me regret not extinguishing the flame earlier – perhaps when he first hugged me. It was, however, a very special bond, or so I thought, and I believed until quite recently that we would be life-long friends.
His SO sometimes seemed a bit moody sometimes but I put that down to the trials and tribulations of becoming a mum. Maybe she found me irritating.
We never talked about sex or sexuality but we became mutual confidantes and he sent me a message saying just that. The subject of whether or not I was gay didn’t come up because, although I find him attractive, it never crossed my mind to mention it. People do tend to know, though. I have always been gay, simply just gay, and I have never had a relationship. That might explain my apparent nativity, if that’s what it was.
I am glad that you did indeed articulate the thought jumbling around in your brain and I feel humbled by it. It is, I think, one small step further in enabling me to close down my feelings.
You seem to be doing well these days, which is very encouraging.
Sammy says
“He is no longer “obsessed” because it became impossible for him and/or it faded when he moved away, I think; he has a new life and he may have gone through all sorts of emotions. I don’t know. In many ways it doesn’t matter because he clearly no longer wants any contact and I too realise that I must demolish the limerence on my part.
It’s tough but this is what can happen if you don’t understand the dangers of what you initially perceive to be an exciting friendship.”
@frederico.
You’re showing a lot of self-awareness in what you say here, as well as a desire to respect what another person might be feeling i.e. that this person doesn’t want any further contact from you. Although you’re suffering, and in a “dark place”, you’re actually in a very healthy place mentally I feel because your empathy is still functioning and you obviously want to do what’s best for everybody.
I was in a similar situation to you once – a beautiful friendship with another male. (Crazy beautiful. Gorgeous eyes). I’m not going to speculate on his sexuality, because after brooding a long time on the subject I have concluded his sexuality is none of my business.
We were both young at the time, final year of high school. There were moments, e.g. we had just finished a 400m race, which seemed absolutely fraught with sexual tension. (We were both happy. We were both flushed. We were laughing, and surrounded by all our other friends. We were staring at each other with shining eyes. In that moment, I could have sworn that he was in love in me). 😉
Yes, this friendship had that daring, exciting, dangerous quality. I think we both enjoyed that quality in the initial stages, and both craved it to some degree. We probably did crave each other mildly, and the craving was mutual. Like we were daring each other to connect on a deeper and deeper level. However, this state of excitement/anticipation wasn’t going to last forever. Of course, the lad was going to move on e.g. prioritising other male friends over me, university, dating, marriage, work, family life, etc.
I think, for the sake of your own mental health, you need to be very careful in how you frame this friendship you had. Don’t go searching for the darkest possible meanings e.g. “Oh, he was just using me.” Permit yourself kind and gentle interpretations of events – as long as these kind and gentle interpretations don’t feed/reignite your obsession. Make room for human error (on both sides).
I think the healthiest way to frame this friendship is to say to yourself that, yes, you were indeed special to this other man – for a limited period of time and only for a limited period of time. (And nobody needs to feel guilty about that).
This other man, at least for a time, probably viewed your shared friendship as a very positive thing in his life. At times, it may have felt (to you) as if you were in mutual limerence. At times, to you, it may have felt like you were going to be lifelong friends. I can only imagine your elation at receiving such a warm Christmas greeting.
This man probably did intentionally seek you out – time and again – for affection, attention, validation, all those wonderful things. And you kindly and generously provided those things to this man. You are not a bad person. In short, you nurtured this male when he sought out nurturing from you. And that’s all well and good. Again, nobody needs to feel guilty because nobody did anything wrong.
But here’s the catch, Frederico, my man. You did commit one tiny social faux pas. You broke the “Bro Code”. (Don’t worry. Every gay man has broken the “Bro Code” at least once in his life). How did you break the Bro Code? You broke the Bro Code by falling in love with your platonic best friend.
The truth is your infatuation with your friend probably deepened to a point (completely understandably) where it started to make your friend feel ill-at-ease in your company. You likely started to feel possessive over your friend. And jealous, possessive energy is something other people can sense, even if you think you’re doing a really good job of hiding it. Perhaps your friend felt like he could no longer be his “real self” around you, especially if his real self is affectionate and mildly flirty? (Because you’ll read into everything).
I very respectfully disagree with Adam that your friend was confused about his sexuality or using you as some kind of guinea pig. (Although I totally understand Adam’s logic. There are tons of straight men who wouldn’t be caught dead doing anything that could be interpreted/misinterpreted as “gay” in some way. A lot of straight men refuse to be friends with other men for this very reason, and hence the Western epidemic of male friendlessness).
I think Adam’s interpretation is a bit too-deep, too-dark for a very common, mundane problem. I think there are many straight men out there who aren’t confused about their sexuality. However, these very same men – in a very innocent way – have a spell in their lives where they enjoy being very close to another male. I think it is almost a developmental stage. And, unfortunately, gay men are often the only men who are “emotionally available” enough to provide the desired temporary closeness, affection, validation.
During this “very close” phase, these otherwise female-focused males will seek out nurturing from other males. They may even act a bit lovesick at times – or, at the very least, not object overtly to lovesick behaviour from male friends. It’s actually a huge privilege that your friend sought you out for this kind of close bond. It shows that he trusted you. Unfortunately, what seems to have happened is you have certain needs of your own that your friend was probably unaware of. (Your friend didn’t know you were going to get so attached to him. You friend was happy with a light attachment).
Here’s another way to think about your situation that you might find helpful. Most human beings are selfish to some degree. However, most human beings are not sadistic. At a certain point in limerence, all limerents become absolutely terrified of rejection, start walking on eggshells around LO, etc.
Now think about this from your friend’s point of view. Do you really think he’d want you to go through life, terrified that he (or some other man) is going to reject you at any moment, causing you unbearable anguish? Does that sound like friendship to you? Your friend may have been selfish in a very casual way at times, but I doubt he was ever sadistic. In short, you’re suffering, but it was never your friend’s intention that you should suffer over him. 🤔
frederico says
Goodness, Jaideux, you are someone whose posts I have read, literally for several years, and this has
made me sit up. Thank you for your eloquence and the benefit of your wisdom.
I have sometimes felt slightly embarrassed that my LO is considerably younger than me.
A small part of me would quite like to slap him across the chops.
I now have a bit of a lump in my throat after reading your comment, I am going to try to ditch any residual feelings of bitterness and, within the next few weeks or months, be adventurous, fun and young in spirit. How hard can it be?
Well, ok, I may have had a whisky but I will try to remember this:-
“It can be done! But it takes determination and self respect and genuinely liking oneself.
Then the sparkling person we are is real, not a fraud that was manipulated by limerence.”
Thanks, Jaideux
Jaideux says
Frederico I’m having a symbolic whisky with you and I have full confidence that you are fascinating and fun and don’t need that young LO to bring it out of you! Let the LO go with silent well wishes and a breath of relief.
You’re free! 🚴
Anna says
The most useful nugget of wisdom I discovered here was not a nugget at all.
It was a gigantic boulder!!!
I am so grateful to have found this blog, Dr. L and all of you.
A year and a half ago I had no clue what was happening to me, I thought I was going mad!
Now it has a name AND an explanation!
It also forced me to confront myself and my childhood issues, which in turn brought me to therapy.
I was going to say “win, win” but I haven’t quite “won” yet.
Even though I am recovering from LO #2, I refuse to entertain an LO #3
I REFUSE because now I know what “The Glimmer” is and how to avoid it.
I am so grateful because I’m sure Limerence would of been something that would of happened to me over and over and over again.
Also, I agree very much with Nisor on “How to handle grief after No Contact”
That would be very beneficial right now and I think a lot of us are at that point.
Just reading the words before it actually sinks into my head would give some relief. I know it!
Congrats on the book Dr. L, looking forward to it!
Anna says
Oh, I wanted to add:
During my sit down with my therapist this week we were discussing ways to help me along with Limerence recovery (yes, she must of educated herself on the subject~yay!!)
I was telling her about things that I though were helping and one was looking at LO in a negative light.
eg: being angry that I got sucked in by a Narcissist and the things they say and do to keep you hooked ( I called it the “Double Whammy)
Having a Narcissist as an LO can make things more difficult as some of you know.
BUT I have to accept my part in it as well.
Anyway, she said that anger may make me feel in control at the moment but in the long run, it just keeps me stuck.
Anger for my LO just draws him CLOSER and will make rumination stronger.
She said that I need to sit with the sadness and forego the anger if I can.
I don’t like the sadness uuggg..
But, apparently sadness will eventually fade long before anger will.
Not sure if I’m making much sense here but at the end of the day I guess what she means is acceptance will win in the long run.
I think Dr. L may have addressed this in one of the blog posts.
Maybe some tips and tricks would make for a good discussion on what works for some of you on our journeys here.
Snowpheonix says
Anna,
I agree with your therapist: aim to grieve, and eventually let anger go. Narcissist would be fed by negative fuel as well…
I’ll copy the continuous part of the article on Narcissist in the other blog where we had spoken last time.
I’m very glad to hear your progress.
Call me Cordelia says
Biggest thing I learnt is that limerence exists. Just knowing about it broke the spell for me. I really don’t even know what drew me to LO in such an intense way. Why him? Why then? It was instant and felt like I was cursed because I didn’t choose it. I didn’t choose him.
Giving fair warning, I’m going to get ranty…
If it happened all over again, I finally know what I’d say. And will say to any other guy who does nothing more than the highly irritating flirty bullshit dance!
The main issue was the plausible deniability. So I took it out of the equation. I just need to say ‘your intention is irrelevant, but your behavior comes across as flirty. If you’re doing it because you need to feel desirable, I’m not interested in providing that validation for you. If you’re doing it because you’re interested, then maybe grow some nurries and ask me to go for a coffee or something’. 🤷♀️ (obviously I wouldn’t say the last part if he was married!) Whatever their response, doesn’t matter. I just need to be rid of uncertainty. That’s the key really, isn’t it? Getting rid of uncertainty somehow.
I am not limerent for anyone right now but I do feel annoyed and think a lot about these irritating situations because they happen to me a lot. I’m currently very angry with married or coupled men who flirt with me because I’m alone. That’s not fair. they’re trying to use me for validation and go home to their wives. I go home to nobody. I was quite proud of myself recently for being straight up very early on with someone I can’t avoid.
I think a lot of it is protecting ego and being manipulative from both limerents and LOs. Have the courage to be honest with yourself and other people and maybe you won’t have these problems!
MJ says
The nugget of Wisdom I get from being here is the fact that limerence falls on me. Realizing from many posts over time, that LO never asked my infatuation and that it’s quite unfair of me to expect her reciprocation because of it. Thank God I never sent her flowers. I thank all of you fine people for your posting about real disclosures.
Lovisa is correct that uncertainty does increase obsessive behavior. Jaideux mentions she has been dealing with a limerent for a long time. The behavior that limerent expresses is probably similar to how I appear to LO when she is around. The uncertainty I felt every day when we were still working in the same building together, was the roller coaster of emotions which was terrible. I’m still emotional at times but not as often, so I suppose I’m slowly working my way out. The idea of her is still appealing and I keep hoping our paths will cross again at some point, but it will happen when I least expect it. Always does.
I do have my other Lady Friend now that I’m getting to know and it’s been a joy to have someone around for once that feels like something could possibly be in the works for us down the road. I really don’t know what that is yet. In no way am I limerent for her though and in no way do I want to be limerent for her. Somehow we just seem to be connecting normally and I’m striving like hell, to keep things light. Because love-bombing her definitely isn’t the right approach. So perhaps that is something else LwL has taught me from being here and reading the blogs. I have definitely appreciated the Community and the support from everyone.
As for learning something in the book, I think maybe for myself it would be learning tools to help deal with the drama and grief and depression associated with LC and NC. This is definitely something I have struggled with.
Call me Cordelia says
So happy to hear things have progressed with your Lady Friend! Good for you, MJ!
Send some luck my way, will you? I’d rather be single than in the wrong relationship, but I have been alone for two years now 😔
MJ says
Thank you Cordelia. It is nice to see you posting here again. You have always brought your real and unique perspective to the table and I believe it has purpose in this forum.
We are in good company being alone for two years now. Actually a little over 2 for me and many, many more if I include my divorce, but I usually don’t. I don’t necessarily see New Lady Friend as potential for relationship just yet, but I am starting to get a connection vibe and hoping she will let me cross the drawbridge and into her castle properly, like a real Gentleman should do. (Your castle metaphor still cracks me up)
I wish you luck here from the States. I feel like you probably have very good discernment on who to let in at some point. Being cautious and careful, along with what has enlightened you here will help as well. But you knew that already, lol..
Stay in touch Cheerleader. I’m still good for messing a great thing up. I may need you again.
Call me Cordelia says
Aww thanks, MJ! Well I’ll keep fingers crossed for you and will still keep checking in now and then.
I owe a fair bit of the growth I’ve achieved to this blog and the people here.
Yes, I’m definitely not going to fall for the charming narcissist (previous partner, not LO) again! Nor ‘flirty but otherwise minimum effort guys’. Nup. He has to respect castle lore and come in via the portcullis (as you say, like a gentleman!) with both the confidence (because he’s done the inner work and isn’t caught up in his ego) and patience (again because he’s done the work) that requires!
Hf says
I think with limerance time is the ultimate, and only true healer. So the people who are experiencing it for the first time like I am will feel like it’s never going away, but they have to know it will. That being said the only obstacle to time healing is the inconsistent perpetual reinforcement due to uncertainty created by the constant energy change of the lo. Once the limerant is aware of this I think it has much less power as you can controll your own energy. This is all under the assumption that no contact is not possible which would of course be the best option. I remember reading on here that limerance could carry on for 20 years IF uncertainty is constantly being enforced. The fear i felt from reading that helped me more than anything else I think. People here are saying reducing limerance to just brain chemistry has helped them and that helped me at first. But speaking now after 2 years of suffering I’m finally started to feel better and for me maybe because its my first girl I ever liked. It makes me feel better to know that it was a meaningful experience and not just an addiction craving and that its okay to move on from it.
Dr L says
Thanks all, for the brilliant suggestions and feedback so far!
Really appreciated 🙂
Imho says
Dr. L,
coming here I learnt for the first time that I had experienced this life changing thing called the Glimmer and I was at the height of this thing called limerence and that it’s a thing. I’m not special. Or all limerents are special ? Hmm ?
Anyway, I would say the main nugget was how LwL educated me that it’s not some twin flame destiny drama that will unfurl like a movie and that I have no control over. It taught me to step back and understand what and why this is happening in my own head to then properly address and head off initiating that conversation with LO to establish if LO feels the same way, that urgency to need to know if LO desires me even if we cant do anything about it ( this applies to those with barriers).
That would have been selfish. I’ve learned that. Also the feeling for some kind of closure, many talk of writing a letter or sending a final message to their LO. I’ve learned from LwL blogs and community that it’s all generally a bad idea and you won’t need to do so when you have worked it through yourself and moved on from LE (appreciate there are some exceptions).
On the book, I would like it to include personality types that are more prone to limerence and prone to LOs. I’m not an expert at all but I’m intuitive and my LO is probably a sensor, for example, and knowing these things what to watch out for or do, to be better equipped in this crazy world !
Also the book needs to come with a faux book cover saying “Pride and Prejudice” so no-one knows what I’m actually reading 😀
MJ says
Also the book needs to come with a faux book cover saying “Pride and Prejudice” so no-one knows what I’m actually reading 😀
Imho,
Does anybody else really know what limerence is? Besides the so few of us here? So many Therapists don’t it seems. I say keep limerence on the cover. It will make you look more intelligent.. 🤓😎
Sammy says
@MJ.
“Also the book needs to come with a faux book cover saying “Pride and Prejudice” so no-one knows what I’m actually reading 😀”
That is very good, MJ. Very funny. Now remember, if anyone asks, your favourite character is named “Mr William Collins”. 😜
Sammy says
@MJ.
Sorry. I seem to have attributed Imho’s clever comment to you, when you were simply quoting Imho. 😉
Imho says
Ha ha, thanks Sammy ! actually good prompt as I meant to reply to MJ.
I imagine myself reading the new book (with original book cover) on a train. A really handsome guy gets on the train and sits opposite me. I raise my eyes above my book and our eyes connect, we have a moment, we nervously smile at each other. As the journey progresses he is intrigued what I’m reading and Google’s the word limerence. (other search engines are available) As he reads the definition a look of horror and fear sweeps across his beautiful face. He quickly gets up and frantically looks for somewhere else to sit !!!
MJ says
My Bad Sammy. I forgot to put imho’s comment in quotes..
😑
MJ says
Imho..
Yes, a look of horror and dismay, lmao..
😳🥺😯😧
Us limerents sure are a unique bunch aren’t we??
Sammy says
@MJ.
“My Bad Sammy. I forgot to put imho’s comment in quotes. 😑”
It’s all good, mate. I think Imho’s joke was a very good joke, and one of those jokes that only improves in the retelling. 😜
Adam says
“What’s the most useful nugget of wisdom you’ve discovered on LwL?”
The description of limerence as “person addiction” helped me so much in context. I have struggled with addictions of some kind most of my life. Some I have overcome and some I haven’t. When I started to look at her like an addictive substance it didn’t feel like love, it felt like what it was, a crippling addiction.
“What would you most like to learn about in the book?”
Ways to protect oneself from future limerent episodes. I don’t want this to happen again.
Penelope says
Hello all,
No doubt most of you will recognize this as my first post. I found you after reading the New York Times article on Limerence on 2/4/24. Going forward from that day my life is divided into two periods, like BC and AD, only for me it’s BAL (before awareness of limerence) and AAL (after awareness of limerence). It has taken me a month to get up to speed on this concept that has governed my whole darn life, and I never knew about it!
“There are these two young fish swimming along and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says “Morning, boys. How’s the water?” And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes “What the hell is water?”
.
Like the famous 2005 David Foster Wallace commencement speech “This is Water”, at the ripe age of 61 I realized only a month ago that I have been swimming surrounded by varying levels of limerence my whole life and never knew it.
Unlike some who I have seen commenting on this forum, my limerence does not stem from a distressing childhood or trauma. I clearly see that I have been this way since pre-school, it’s just the way I go through life. It is a fundamental pillar of my personality, and it is how I fell in love multiple times over the course of my life.
My late teens and 20’s are a blur of limerence bonanzas. The LO’s stand out like sore thumbs now that I have the vocabulary and understanding (thanks Dr. L) to label them. There was then a quiet period after my marriage (my current husband was one of my OG LO’s!).
Then followed a lovely, calm, and tranquil period of my life for 34 years where there might have been a very transient glimmer here and there but really no limerence. And then BANG, I didn’t know what hit me. 7 years younger than I (helpful from the forum about the prevalence of younger LO’s), also married. Diametrically opposite in personality from my husband. And co-limerent for me. I was a goner.
My diaries from that period read like a limerence diagnostic manual. Does he feel what I feel? What does this mean about how I feel about my husband (who I adore)? Am I going insane?!
This forum has helped me understand what is going on in my head. Through the blog posts I am pretty sure I am also a sensor (albeit a dormant sensor for quite a while- most of my married life I was not coming in contact with men that would spark limerence) and the very fact that I could feel his limerence and that I was 7 years older and had the ability to create that kind of interest in a much younger man…and hey, am I still capable of attracting the male gaze at the ripe old age of 58?
It brought back a lot of memories from those early years. Truth be told, back then my limerence was nearly always rewarded with reciprocal feelings, so I was never in the psychological pain that true limerence produces. Not until this time, with barriers and SO’s galore, that’s when I first really understood psychic pain related to longing and uncertainty.
I am still processing a lot of this information, combing through old blog posts and reading all the comments. Congratulations Dr. L on your book. Might I suggest some “guest columns” from some of the more prolific and insightful commentors I’ve read on this blog? Maybe just sharing their stories in more detail. Just a thought.
Anyway, it’s lovely to meet you all. I am looking forward to more revelations and insights about myself coming from reading Lwl. As far as the nuggets I have received from Lwl, it’s more like multiple lightning bolt strikes of realizations. I am most grateful for the vocabulary and scaffolding Dr. L has given for discussing and understanding limerence.
Nisor says
Welcome to LwL Penelope,
Very interesting story. We would like to hear more from you and share yours insights with us. Like you, I found a meaning to my “ailment “ that was driving me crazy. It’s nice to at least know that what’s happening to you has a name, and a web site to share with like people, some one who understands limerence.
Best wishes and keep in touch.
Mila says
Hi all,
I missed a lot of posts, just wanted to give my two cents to the book update and then also write something unrelated since this is a coffeehouse.
I‘m sure somebody wrote that already, but for me the most important thing to learn here was that limerence was something that had foremost to do with me, the person I am, the voids I have to fill, and not foremost with LO.
In my first LEs I thought fate struck and I met a very special person, destiny, whatever.
That’s maybe because I was limerent for my SO and I married him and he‘s still the prince of my life. It fitted every fairy tale.
So, when this kind of limerent feeling struck again, I thought it must have a similar import, that I met a similarly important person etc.
Through LwL I learned that yes, I met special persons and I liked them very much, but the part where obsession and intrusive thoughts and addiction started, this part had nothing to do with these persons and all with me.
Which gives me the power to change it.
Also, I wanted to tell you that I met LO2 today (the LO before current one- he also left my workplace after being a colleague of mine, and I‘m very sure not necessarily that he was limerent, I don‘t think if he’s the limerent type, but he definitely had a major crush, but since I’m married and also quite a lot older, I was always out of bounds) after not seeing him for a long time, and it was heartwarming and a very nice evening, I still love him very much because he really is one of the most special persons I know, but I‘m not limerent anymore at all, I just enjoy him.
He told me that his girlfriend is pregnant, something nobody knows yet, I know he told me because he still regards me as one of the nicest and trustworthy persons in his life, and I‘m so happy for them! I felt no desire whatsoever, I just thought how special he is and how much I want to see him happy, without any other thought.
I just post this because yes, in this case I managed to turn the limerence into friendship, something that gets doubted here all the time.
It was probably only possible because he moved away, but still, we made it.
In matters of current LO, the working week with him was very difficult. I couldn’t interact with him in work freely and I was very sad overall.
I had this party on the last evening, he stayed quite long (given that he usually leaves parties early) and when he left we talked outside for a while with hugs and kisses on the cheek of the non-sexual but loving type (interesting discussion, this!).
I felt that it is possible to love him very much without all this rumination crap, basically without all that is bad about limerence. Limerence is so selfish. It wants and wants. I sometimes have a glimpse of how it could be- that I love this person without wanting for myself. For a while I could see how I could love him without wanting to get closer to him and also love him including all that belongs to him, his SO and kid and his decision to leave, if he leaves.
It is elusive, sure, it slowly fades, but I try to hold on to that feeling.
Maybe that’s also why I didn’t feel like posting.
Bewitched says
Dear Mila,
“It is elusive, sure, it slowly fades, but I try to hold on to that feeling. Maybe that’s also why I didn’t feel like posting.”
You have been wise to stay away from us here. Working things through in your own mind just takes some time by oneself (for me anyway). I have also been more silent that usual and its is helping me with some things. less thoughts about LO, less obsessive checking LwL, sleeping better, ….
At the same time, I can feel the wistfulness off your post. I relate very much to feeling a bit sad. Sometimes it’s all just a bit much – I think the end of limerence is something that we can mourn and I am certainly feeling this way myself right now. If we accept that it’s all about us (not the LO), then we see that, at the end of limerence we are coming back to reality*, coming down off our self-induced cloud – but also in the good sense – there are fewer limerence pains and anguish.
*The key issue is what our reality is for us and whether we can we enhance that.
I do not doubt that you can do this as pure ‘friendship’, it’s just the intensity which needs to be reduced in order for it to be healthy for you.
Sending a hug.
Mila says
Thanks Bewitched!
I just had this glimpse how I could keep my intense feelings without getting obsessive, just love someone without urgency. I have this glimpse from time to time in general- it’s this benevolent, happy and encompassing feeling for my fellow humans, and for some persons just in a more intensified form.
But then I lose it again because of my insecurities etc.
Speaking of insecurities, I’m currently working as a guest in another town, and although I‘m doing a good job and everyone is being nice, there is one bit I‘m not so good at, a tiny thing (sorry, don’t want to name my job), and this tiny bit eats my whole confidence away.
So I‘m bogged down in trying to solve this and not thinking about LO, which should be a good thing, but I‘m kind of exasperated with myself that in my age I still cannot shake off these insecurities (I only mess this bit up because I’m insecure about it. )
It’s something LO is very good at. I wish I had some of his calm competence.
„ I think the end of limerence is something that we can mourn and I am certainly feeling this way myself right now.“
When I have this feeling I described, I feel that this is the way not having to mourn.
Maybe I delude myself just because I’m scared of the pain of mourning, it’s possible.
Are you at the end of limerence, Bewitched?
Lovisa says
Mila, I want to give you some encouragement. Maybe there is one skill that you can improve, but you can do your job well anyway. It’s okay to be imperfect. Everyone is imperfect. Can I share a story?
My church choir sang a number that our choir director wrote as a national anthem for a budding country. That song was too advanced for a church choir. It is a beautiful number, but the first soprano notes are crazy high. I could hit those notes as long as I could hear the other first soprano. On my own, I didn’t sound so good, but with her, we nailed those notes and it sounded quite lovely. I felt inferior. I felt like the other first soprano should do the song on her own. But here’s the thing, it’s not a “choir” without multiple voices. So even though her voice was more polished than mine, I was still needed. I’m glad that I didn’t give up. I got recruited for some other high soprano parts including some solos after we sang that number. My confidence is not good, but the feedback that I get is quite good so maybe I’m underestimating myself. Maybe you are underestimating yourself, too. You are the person who is doing the job. You can do it! You got this! I believe in you, Mila!
Another story…
When I was a new foster mom, I was completely overwhelmed. My kids’ behavior problems were difficult. I questioned if I was the best foster mom for them. One particularly rough day, my SO and I hid in our car to have a private conversation. I said, “I can’t do this. It’s bigger than me.” My SO asked, “If not you, then who? Who would be a better fit for the kids?” I thought about it and replied, “Jesus?” I couldn’t think of anyone who could do a better job than me except Jesus. Then with renewed confidence, I said, “Jesus isn’t available so this is my job. I’ll do it.”
You can do it, Mila! Whatever you’re struggling with, it’s just a growth opportunity.
Snowpheonix says
Mila,
“I have this glimpse from time to time in general- it’s this benevolent, happy and encompassing feeling for my fellow humans, and for some persons just in a more intensified form.“
That’s a Buddhistic nature — Compassion/Love, residing in all of us, it’s always there. Let’s try together to bring it out of us more…
🫂
Imho says
Hi Mila, I’m also working away, which can be a good distraction. I understand you need to reflect and process. posting here isn’t always a priority or the right thing to do at that time for you. I’m a bit in and out on lwl sometimes too , as you noted 😀. It can sometimes feel a little overwhelming to read and answer lots of new messages, even though they are nice and supporting.
It seems your LE is evolving and that’s good – ie not getting stuck in a washing machine of limerence. A step change is I think needed instigated by ourselves or external forces. Your last week, sounded quite challenging and some sadness.
You should be proud you stepped straight into your guest week after that difficult week. I think some sensitive honest personality types and often females underplay our strengths and don’t b#llsh*t our way on the stuff we aren’t as good at. That’s my experience anyway. None of us can be great at everything or else you and me would be doing a very different job and probably rich n famous ! I try to improve my weak areas at work but acknowledge they will probably always be my weak areas. Other replies you have had are really great too!!
Be confident in your red. Best wishes
Bewitched says
Hey Mila,
I wouldn’t say that I am at an end of limerence but I seem to have deprogrammed myself – just a bit. I never looked into the ’emergency deprogramming’ of Dr L (even though, goodness knows I went through a very intense period wen that might have been helpful). But, I think that’s what as happened maybe? I think I told you that over a number of weeks, since maybe mid january, I was consciously thinking of my LO in more ‘balanced’ fashion and noticing their limitations more. I also tried to divert my mind away from so much pleasant memory curation and reverie. I then was working with my LO a lot recently and they drove me a bit mad. I really think they come up short in so many ways. So maybe I am out of it, a bit, but I haven’t seen them in person for ages so this is the litmus test for me because I pick up on what he is giving out. If he gives out less (because he has grown tired of it, say), I might actually be out of the woods.
[I know, I know, I should not let him dictate my moods / emotions!!!].
So, I would say that I am good, sleeping better, ruminating less, but also on less of a cloud… Its okay but I might need a major new and invigorating hobby. And lets see how I do when I set eyes on him.
Bewitched says
Dear Lovisa,
“One particularly rough day, my SO and I hid in our car to have a private conversation. I said, “I can’t do this. It’s bigger than me.” My SO asked, “If not you, then who? Who would be a better fit for the kids?” I thought about it and replied, “Jesus?” I couldn’t think of anyone who could do a better job than me except Jesus. Then with renewed confidence, I said, “Jesus isn’t available so this is my job. I’ll do it.”
I love this. Its a proper ability to look at the big picture. You guys are awesome to do it, not once, but every day. It is insanely unselfish and I wanted to tell you that I really admire you x
Mila says
Hi Lovisa,
Thank you so much.
I really love your personal examples and I feel sublimely supported.
I know what you are trying to tell me is true, I‘m just angry with myself that at my age and after all I achieved I still lack the confidence not to be vexed and doubt all my abilities by this single thing I did imperfectly …
I‘ll think of all of you tomorrow and do better, or even better, will do my best but won’t care so much.
Mila says
Hi Snow,
Yes, it is kind of a spiritual thing, I’m usually not spiritual or religious, but there’s some truth in this all-encompassing love thing…as I said, from time to time I snatch a glimpse that that it’s the right way.
Mila says
Dear Imho,
„I think some sensitive honest personality types and often females underplay our strengths and don’t b#llsh*t our way on the stuff we aren’t as good at.“
So true.
That is the annoying thing: if I were a very self- assured person of the type that’s often male (whom a little bit of self-doubt would do a world of good), there would be no problem. I wouldn’t get the idea that I was not good in the first place, and then I wouldn’t show nerves and mess it up the second time round.
I know all that and still cannot transfer it to reality.
In my anxiety I reached out to some co-workers at my workplace and they gave me such kind and praising reassurance that I‘m very touched, as I am by your words of help.
But still my inner slave-driver sits there and tells me I‘m no good until I get it right tomorrow…
But actually, if I won’t get it right, the world won’t stop to spin round and I‘ll still be alive. So maybe I should just accept that there is a possibility that I will mess it up tomorrow again and who cares? It’s really tiny… and probably no one but me cares… I don’t know.
Mila says
Hi Bewitched,
So good that you did your own deprogramming!
Even if you might feel thrown back next time you see him in person (if!) it won’t be lost, you will be quicker to return to that reprogrammed state!
When you see him next time face to face, I recommend simply observing- seeing his good and bad sides, seeing the reality of both. You‘ll see that yes, he‘s lovely, and yes, he‘s only human and has dreary sides, and both is ok and nothing to ruminate too much about.
I must say I‘ m more at peace since this week with LO, the week was hard, but it was good to see him for a while, see how he is in real life and feel that there is a real mutual affection. Somehow that helped to quell the ruminations.
You could ask yourself, why does/did LO have that impact on me? Is it maybe only because you love his reaction to myself?
I only say that because I recall your recurrent observation that he reacts adoringly to your presence. Is this kind of validation the key thing that makes him so special in your eyes?
Anyway, I’m still of the opinion that a reality check can lead to good results in quelling limerence, opposed to the NC theory.
I‘m very tired and might write nonsense, sorry.
I also made a much too long voice message to LO (who’s already asleep)because he asked me how it’s going here. If there’s someone who knows the self-doubt triggered by tiny failures, it’s him. But I already know that he won’t be half as reassuring as my colleagues or you;)…
Thank you all! I cannot thank you enough. It’s so heart warming to read your supportive messages at the end of the day.
Snowpheonix says
Bewitched,
“If we accept that it’s all about us (not the LO), then we see that, at the end of limerence we are coming back to reality*, coming down off our self-induced cloud – but also in the good sense – there are fewer limerence pains and anguish.“
I can strongly resonate with your insight here, so well said!
Sending you 🫂 (I’m in the middle of proctoring midterm exam)
Bewitched says
Heya Snowpheonix,
How are you my stoic friend?
I am very interested in your ‘glimmer’ conversations with Marcia. Its really very interesting to read about your self awareness of the new ‘Romeo’ in your life and the old LO/sensor, who seemed to have added so much by being a (non-judgemental?) wall to bounce ideas off for 7 years. I am crossing all my fingers and toes for you that you find a lovely new position and lots of lovely new students to keep you happy and enthusiastic.
Peace! x
Snowpheonix says
Dear Bewitched,
Thank you for your caring message! I’m feeling tired and a bit anxious, since a lot was going on here with job interview, demo-lesson, midterm, and my private lessons online or in person. .
“Its really very interesting to read about your self awareness of the new ‘Romeo’ in your life and the old LO/sensor, who seemed to have added so much by being a (non-judgemental?) wall to bounce ideas off for 7 years“
I’m interested in checking and watching how this new Glimmer is affecting my mind and heart. In all my previous LEs, I neither knew nor understand its mysterious power. Now, with so many nuggets of LwL, I want to see how it works on a life-time limerent like me, who is also from the East with a somewhat different set of mindset and traditions. However, this keen awareness and constant analysis of my emotions orbiting this glimmer seem to rein or reduce their strength or tendency to slip into an infatuation or anywhere?
Despite LO #7 is a Sensor, I have to be fair to say he’s very non-judgmental (I don’t know much about his moral stands, he’s quite private as he claimed). I used to assume that he was snobbish with his rank and cultural knowledge, but gradually learned that he not only looks soft/friendly/charming, but also good with people/students (despite being insecure, wanting “to be liked”). Men and women of all professional ranks seem to like chatting with him or dumping their complains to him , he always listened more attentively and patiently with “humbly” smiles.
That’s why I grew “bold” to express or monologue all sorts of things (at beginning very afraid of being judged or mocked), dumping out my new and old stresses. In the earlier years, I expected some responses and he did superficially. Later after those “misunderstandings”, he still assured me that I could text/email him anytime if it could “help you” (he’s not experienced with psychotherapies). By experiences, we all know differences between speaking to our silent journal and to another non-judgmental human EAR, whether responsive or silent.
That’s why I was/am grateful regardless he’s Senior or Narc. Focus on a matter itself, one at a time, not on doer(s) is one of my ongoing goals for mentality practice.
My COO stresses the virtue to be always thankful to one’s “benefactors”, even others side did not meant it ( eg. a thief during his stealing act incidentally saved a life on or helped someone in need on the spot) This is one of reasons that I feel sad that LO is going to physically disappears from my life.
I’ve been reading your posts to learn how you express your emotions, surging or ebbing. I tend to rationalize matters too much, which automatically “block” my complex and often muddled feelings.
I hope you continue feeing at peace….
Limerent Emeritus says
Hi, DrL,
It’s probably way late for this but, if not, I recommend you check out:
https://www.amazon.com/write-usable-manual-Professional-writing/dp/0894950525
It’s a great book. It’s old and would be dated to what it’s subject matter was but the process still holds. I kept a copy at work until I loaned it out and it never came back.
Gemma says
Most useful bit of info: that I should go completely NC. It was hard but it’s 100% working and I feel so much better for doing that. Don’t even think I’m limerent any more. Which is great!
What I’d like to learn: how can I protect myself from this ever happening again? I don’t want to put barriers up to friendship with men but I also never want to go through this again.
Limerent nurse says
So happy for you, Gemma! I knew you could do it 🩵
Invalid Username says
Hi Dr. L,
I think I’m different from most others here. For me:
1. Less a nugget and more of a boulder, which may not be what you’re looking for. I recently had my first limerent episode and also my first foray into psychology and mental health. So for me, not only learning what limerence is, but also learning about things maybe others know, such as attachment styles and the Myers-Briggs personality types. I was oblivious to their existence and now it has me slightly more informed.
2. Selfishly, I wish the book would touch on the grey area of someone such as myself. Clearly I can be susceptible to limerence, because it happened to me, but at the same time, this is the first time I can think that I have had that feeling (I’m a midlifer). I am not prone to limerence, particularly the despondent side of the lows. Sure, I’ve had light crushes/fantasies, but they were always pleasant asides and neither euphoric nor debilitating, unlike my recent LE. Your first book seems to differentiate between limerents and non-limerents, but I wonder how many of us are in between.
As this is my first post I also wanted to thank you for your insight into this phenomenon. You helped me immensely. It’s crazy how much of my despair was assuaged almost immediately by learning what limerence is and what I was experiencing wasn’t love. Whew!
Adam says
Invalid Username
Mid life seems to be a commonality, at least with men, when it comes to limerence. And one that I can relate to as well. And I don’t think I am prone to limerence either. No woman in my 46 years (save maybe one gal back in my 20’s) has ever effected me in a way that was completely overwhelming to the point that it had a negative effect on my life.
There are quite a few limerents here (some one timers some with multiple LEs) that are midlifers too. And most of them with younger LO’s like my exLO. It seems to be a common factor for men. Along with a lot of midlifer’s LOs being co-workers. If you stick around I think that you will find that you will have a lot in common with some regular posters here. So welcome to the community and we hope you can find what you are looking for here.
Invalid Username says
Thank you for the warm welcome and for the knowledge that I’m not alone in this. From most of my limited reading, I felt that I was the odd one out since most limerents seem to have ongoing struggles and a multitude of LOs/LEs. Like you, in hindsight, I may have had a LO/LE back when I was in my early 20s, but the relationship ended and I moved on (being dismissive avoidant has its benefits).
This time . . . it’s certainly different and unique. I’m not out of the woods yet, but I’m on the cusp. At least the soul-churning despair is all but gone. With that said, I haven’t interacted with my LO since discovering it’s limerence, not love. I’m not looking forward to that.
Bewitched says
Hi Invalid Username,
I also had only one LE (my current one). I think I was close once or twice, but thise were really more like prolonged crushes. In many cases, i ended up dating my crush and things never developed into the soul elevating / destroying intensity that we’ve all experienced. So ADam is right – some of us share that with you.
I am in midlife and was very stressed when limerence hit me.
All best wishes!
Evan says
1. Just the existence of limerence as a concept has been big for me, having just discovered it this week. I now have a word from my recent woes. Thank you.
As background, I have been mostly happily married for 30+ years, albeit without in-marriage sex for most of it. Never talked about it, never got therapy. So, maybe because of that, maybe because of something else, I acted out. Paid for oral sex. Many times. Quick, transactional with no intimacy. Can’t really say what the trigger was but I would find myself out cruising. Finally broke that habit, and have mostly broken a later substitute porn habit. Despite this cheating and longing, I never had what I consider to be a real affair. Recently, however, I retired. With time on my hands, I found a woman seeking an arrangement. We became friends, seeing each other often. No sex. Some financial support. All secret. My wife has no clue. I wanted a proper, regular, intimate, sexual FWB or GFE affair, never having had one. But this woman, who describes herself as a sex worker, won’t have sex with me. It’s a bit infuriating tbh. She is complicated. Still, I find her creeping into my thoughts in an unhealthy way. I’m constantly thinking of her (what can I text her to make her smile, what’s she doing now, when will I see her next, how is her pet bunny doing, who else is she dating, etc.). We recently did something I thought would get us across the intimacy line, but nothing came of it. At that point, I thought why I am I doing this to myself. This so-called relationship is so unbalanced, meaning so much to me and so little to her. It’s sucking up cash, energy, emotional capital and certainly not doing my SO relationship many favors (although there has been some strange and unexpected rekindling there but minimal). Yes, there’s some enrichment, but mostly it seems unhealthy. Risky and unsustainable. But I still like so much about it. So, I was really pleased to find this site, which seems to be closely related to what I’ve experienced.
2. In terms of what I’d love to know most, as a newbie to this topic as I’m sure most of your readers will be, is the following:
– What about me caused me to be susceptible to this madness and how could I have prevented being so vulnerable?
– At what point is it unhealthy and how do you know? Because mine seemed OK to start and then snowballed into obsession.
– What are you supposed to do to get healthy again from this while you are in the thick of it? I suspect this can’t be the same for everyone. I feel like there’s a chance I can dial down my obsession and still be friends with this LO, my first. Is that naive? I see a lot of recommendations to quit the LO and move on. Is that really the best advice? Why?
– If I were to get therapy to help me process this, what would that look and feel like? How would it go?
– Tell my SO about this? I think a chapter on that is essential because my own feeling on it is no, never. It would ruin my marriage, whereas I have an OK marriage despite what you might think. And I can work on it to make it better. But telling my SO would end it. I know my SO.
I think that’s most of what I’d want to learn. Until the book arrives, I’ll keep reading on the site. Thanks for all the work that has gone into it.
Evan says
If anyone has feedback on my situation outlined above, I would be grateful. I know this thread is about the book, but I wrote down my experience partly hoping you LE experts might give me some needed advice. Thanks.
Speedwagon says
Hi Evan, not sure I would call myself an expert but I do have some thoughts about what you are experiencing and your questions.
First, a sexless marriage seems like it is very fertile ground around here for falling into limerence. It only makes sense, we crave intimacy and physical intimacy is a huge part of a long lasting romantic partnership. I think you are simply craving to have both emotional and physical intimacy with the same person and not have sex just be transactional.
Limerence feeds and thrives on uncertainty. Your LO is keeping you filled with uncertainty. It makes you crave her. She is providing enough attention to keep you hooked. But the good news is, you have discovered this too and are ready to take action.
Generally speaking, being friends with an LO is very difficult. Dr L has a blog post on it. For one, it keeps the false hope alive and two, it’s not a real reciprocal friendship. You will always be in pursuit mode with this person. I have tried being on friendship terms with my LO but it always backfires on me. It just causes me more distress and invasive romantic thoughts than I care to have.
Most Limerents who have kicked limerence will swear that No Contact is the only real way to get out of an LE. You may want to consider ending any and all contact with LO to help your mind heal up. It will be tough at first, you will miss her, but take baby steps and you should get through it. I can’t be NC with mine but I practice very limited contact with her.
Last, telling your SO is very a divided thing here at LwL. Some swear by it, others like myself will never. It’s a cost/benefit thing. Only you can determine if it is worth it. I have not because my relationship with my SO is very good, I am actively managing my LE, and I don’t need to lay this burden on her. You may feel the same or you may want to tell her so you both can tackle your issues together as a team with her support if she is willing to give it.
Keep reading blog posts and comments. So many good stories and advice filtered throughout.
Evan says
Thank you so much, Speedwagon. This was very helpful and this in particular really resonated to me: ” I think you are simply craving to have both emotional and physical intimacy with the same person and not have sex just be transactional.” That is absolutely what I wanted, invested heavily in it, had moments of joy to be sure, but ultimately came up short on the goal. It has left me doubting my ability to ever have that, as well as triggering past memories of similar frustration. LO never overpromised or misrepresented. I accept that it’s all on me. Thanks again.
Adam says
Evan
“– What about me caused me to be susceptible to this madness and how could I have prevented being so vulnerable?”
My guess is it was the lack of intimacy in your marriage. You have admitted that you have sought out other women for physical intimacy. But that is not the only kind of intimacy. If you wife is emotionally distance with intimacy too than no doubt LO sparked in you a flame that has been diminished. An emotional connection, I think, can be a lot more intense than a physical connection. Your idealization of her is quite common in limerence. Wanting to know everything about her and what she is doing is familiar. Still after a year and half of no contact there are still some days that I wonder how she is.
“– At what point is it unhealthy and how do you know? Because mine seemed OK to start and then snowballed into obsession.”
For me I could start seeing it was getting unhealthy when others around me noticed my behavior. My other fellow co-workers would tease me about having a crush on her. “Well Adam we all know you have a crush on her.” Because in limerence you don’t see your own behavior the way that other people do. Even my dear wife suspected something was going on with exLO and she had never met or talked to her once. She saw it through my behavior and words. As some have called it “leaking your limerence”.
Intrusive thoughts are also another good sign. Depending on whether you are in contact with LO or not, when your mind cannot focus because you are always thinking of LO is probably the summit of the obsession. The “limerent brain” takes over the “executive brain” and the ability to focus on tasks at hand and you start “leaking your limerence”. Those are still a battle I have even after all this time. Sometimes all it can take is something random that reminds me of her and I have quickly focus to put the thought out before it turns into rumination.
“– What are you supposed to do to get healthy again from this while you are in the thick of it? I suspect this can’t be the same for everyone. I feel like there’s a chance I can dial down my obsession and still be friends with this LO, my first. Is that naive? I see a lot of recommendations to quit the LO and move on. Is that really the best advice? Why?”
Sometimes to get healthy it takes hitting rock bottom. It was for me. But I think acceptance is the best step to start. Accepting that this is limerence, an altered state of mind. Not the euphoria of love, which it can sometimes feel like. Not this bliss that makes you forget the world and dwell on this angel of a woman. Once you can accept that you can start to move forward.
Some people suggest devaluing your LO. I personally think that is cruel and not fair as for the most part most LOs are innocent in this exchange that is limerence. But you can certainly start pulling her down from the pedestal she is on in your mind. Try to rationalize her rather than idealize her. See her as the imperfect human that she is. Recognize the faults she has just like we all do. This helped me greatly to distance her from my mind and go on living.
I can’t speak for you in this regard. But at one time I hoped that exLO and I could remain friends after she left the job. But I soon realized that, for me anyway, that wasn’t possible. (Ironically right now as I type this “Don’t Expect Me To Be Your Friend” by Lobo is playing on a mix that youtube suggested me. Not a song I picked myself.) But I do not think that it is completely impossible. There are several posters here who are in a situation where they can’t go no contact and have to be in the presence of their LO daily. So some other posters could be much more qualified to answer that question than me.
For the most part no contact and distancing yourself from LO is the best as, for some, like me, it an all or nothing. Like how people can quit drinking cold turkey. For some that is the only way to do it rather than ween yourself away. In my case, I was fortunate that exLO made that decision for me even if it was unknowingly. But had that not been the case the revelation of limerence would have forced me to greatly distance myself from her if not leave the job myself so that the limerence wasn’t perpetuated. I am not saying that all cases merit complete no contact but it does seem to have a good tract record for limerents that have boundaries like marriage.
“– If I were to get therapy to help me process this, what would that look and feel like? How would it go?”
I can’t speak on this too much but I do know of some people that have sought out therapy for limerence only to find that a lot of therapist don’t know the concept of it. So therefore can’t be much help to a limerent. But I think that therapy for the underlying issue(s) of WHY the limerence happened can be good to overcoming this altered state of mind.
“– Tell my SO about this? I think a chapter on that is essential because my own feeling on it is no, never. It would ruin my marriage, whereas I have an OK marriage despite what you might think. And I can work on it to make it better. But telling my SO would end it. I know my SO.”
You know your SO. So correct only you can decide this one way or another. I disclosed to my wife out of lack of choice really. As I mentioned earlier in this post she already suspected something extra marital with exLO so in my case it was a way to face the issue, address it, and then make amends. But only you know if that suit fits your situation.
I hope that you find some answers for your limerence here Evan. This is a wonderful community that I would never have gotten past that limerent episode if it were not for them. This site gave me the courage to confront my wife after six months of rumination after exLO left the job. You are in good hands here.
Evan says
Thanks so much, Adam. I’ll be coming back to your comments often as I work through this. I’m going to see if I can stay friendly with LO. Now that my fantasy of something better is dead, I am hoping I can unwind the obsession, clear the invasive thoughts and just enjoy what there is to enjoy, with no regrets. Easier said than done, but I may as well try — with NC as the fallback if any LE symptoms and side effects persist. I also appreciate your comments about therapists. Though they may not know much about limerence, I do feel like figuring out that WHY is long overdue for me, and I’m eager to get started on that work. OK, thanks again. What a great community here!
Serial Limerent says
Yeah, no contact is not always necessary. I was limerent for at least two people who are now close friends. One I was limerent for in college, but he didn’t return it, and we both met other people and got married. We also live in different parts of the state and keep up online, where it’s harder to keep limerence going. Last year I talked with him on the phone and I swear it felt like the old feelings were back, but that only lasted a short time. Another one I see often, but years ago he told me he’s gay, so that obliterated all questions I had about how he felt about me, ending the limerence. Now, I will flirt with him occasionally, and sometimes he’ll post a sexy picture on Instagram that makes my mind reel….But we’re platonic friends, no limerence, lol.
Evan says
Belated thanks, Serial Limerent. Yeah, I’m going to see if I can stay friends with this person. We’ve had some good times together. But I’ve also written out 11 reasons why it’s not a good relationship lol. I’m using that list to lessen my interest and attraction, and I go to it whenever I start thinking about LO. So, as you can see, I am really on the fence regarding whether to continue. But I figure it’s worth a try to stay friends and get better control of my thoughts. The ultimate test!
Nisor says
Evan hi,
Your situation is very common and it’s not only with limerents. A “dead” bedroom drives the spouse to search outside what they need in the relationship, be it men or women.
Try to use your pent up energy with your SO. That would require some work, like having date nights and starting courting her as when you first met her. At first, she’d probably be surprised of your actions, but reassure her that you love her and would like to have things change in your “dormant relationship “, etc. if need be, see a therapist.
With the LO, be very careful, once you have sex with her you would be hooked and deeper in limerence, for sex tend to bond, and make you addicted. I understand your physical needs , but this LO is an experienced woman and she may like to extortion you economically, as you said she’s wants some sort of arrangement? Maybe that’s why she’s delaying sex, if she’s a sexual worker? And yes, the best way to separate is with No contact. If you keep her as a friend you’ll always be driven back to wanting her, for uncertainty, and the game of pursuing fuels limerence desires. Maybe you want to rescue her? There’s a blog on that on this site. Keep reading the blogs pertaining to your situation and you’ll be surprised how much information you can gather to illustrate you where you’re at. Ultimately, it’s you alone who can make the decisions, no one can make them for you. My two cents as an heterosexual female and with an SO and on NC with LO . It hurts, but the reality of the situation calls for reasoning and ACCEPTANCE of the truth.
Best wishes and good luck.
Evan says
Hi Nisor, belated thanks for your thoughtful reply. I’m definitely going to keep reading. I have been working on my relationship with my SO, and there is some small progress there. We have always loved each other and are best friends, but as you know it’s hard to keep things interesting for decades and dead bedrooms are no fun at all. Not sure how some people manage it. I’m just glad I found this site and this concept of limerence because it fits what I’ve been going through, i.e. just find myself thinking of LO even when I don’t really want to. I did some reflection on it this past week and I’m now convinced that LO is a proxy for two prior-history failed romance and bedroom experiences. I think I’m using her to try to heal those past failings. Of course, failing again, in the same way, with LO means that plan has completely backfired. Clearly, I need to find a therapist and process all of this lol. Anyway, thanks again.
Nisor says
Hi Evan
“ Convinced that LO is a proxy for a prior-hystory failed romance and bedroom experiences. I think I’m using her to try to heal those past feelings.”
“Convinced”, that’s a strong assessment! And it’s a possibility, yes, LO is a proxy for your past experiences. Only you and your therapist can make a conclusive assessment on that, and put you on a road to healing and saving your marriage.
Meanwhile, work in your marriage; surprise SO with flowers, when you see her close by in the house, extend your arms wide open and call her to get closer, if she does that means she is not afraid of intimacy, she wants to break the ice, wrap her up in your arms and whisper something sweet in her ears. Don’t insinuate sex for that would spoil everything. Just make little gestures of affection every day until she feels confident again next to you. Maybe she’s starved for those gestures of cuddling, intimacy and feeling appreciated, and is waiting for you to initiate something, small signs of love every day until you notice she’s secured in your arms, then proceed further in due time…. Don’t rush anything, easy does it…
Are you seeing the therapist alone at first? I think it’s a good idea to do that and show the therapist your post to LwL , so as to avoid wasting of time and money. That’s if you want to do so. You think about it. We just want you to be yourself and happy again in your marriage, living a purposeful life and enjoying it to its fullest, in bed and every corner of your life; away from limerence!
Good day to you.
Invalid Username says
Hi Evan,
Like you, I’m completely new to this. One thing that helped me and answers a lot of your questions, was reading Dr. L’s first book, Living with Limerence: https://livingwithlimerence.com/lwl-book/
I suggest picking it up and giving it a read. It’s quite short, but covers basically everything you mentioned in your #2 questions.
Evan says
Thanks. Will check it out.
Niniane says
I would love more information about dealing with intrusive thoughts. From my reading of comments throughout this blog, it seems to be a topic of huge concern here.
The most useful thing I’ve learned so far from LwL (and am still testing with my own experience) is that the intrusive thoughts caused by limerence originate in a different region of the brain than thoughts caused by OCD and other compulsions. Whereas OCD thoughts (often fear-and-disaster related) can best be alleviated by simply “letting them be,” not engaging with or trying to chase them away, intrusive thoughts caused by limerence need to be actively overwritten (e.g., by devaluation of LO) while distancing oneself from their source (any reminder of LO). Dr. L lays it all out in his post on “Relationship OCD”: https://livingwithlimerence.com/relationship-ocd/
This was eye-opening to me. As I’ve put it into practice (especially the devaluation part), I’ve found much more relief than by using the typical advice of “allowing” intrusive thoughts to just be there and trying not to engage with them. Thank you!!
Sammy says
“I have two specific questions:
1. What’s the most useful nugget of wisdom you’ve discovered on LwL?
2. What would you most like to learn about in the book?”
I am not really sure how to answer these two questions…
Yes, it’s helpful to know limerence is an altered state. Yes, it’s helpful to know limerence is infatuation rather than love. Yes, it’s helpful to know that certain chemicals in the brain are responsible for the ups and downs of limerence. Yes, limerence is connected to sexuality is some incredibly subtle way that to this day I can’t explain. (Is the pleasure of successful pair-bonding greater than the pleasure of mere sexual engagement with a willing party?) I don’ think I could settle on just one nugget of wisdom.
What I’ve discovered since the end of limerence is that one’s emotions remain intact. In other words, one doesn’t turn into a zombie or a robot or Mr Spock from Startrack Enterprises. If one hears a sad song, for example, one still feels sadness. If one hears a happy song, on the other hand, one still feels happiness. But the joy/sadness is unrelated to LO.
Post-limerence, the quality of the sadness/happiness seems different: noticeably less intense, like some huge invisible weight on one’s shoulders has been lifted. I call limerent ups “hormonal happiness” and I call limerent downs “hormonal sadness” (as opposed to everyday happiness and sadness). Not to go all Lawrentian on people, but certain dark reproductive energies are in play. Take jealousy, for example – jealousy must play a huge and little-understood role in pair-bonding. 🤔😉
I think limerence always involves (emotional) suffering for the limerent – at least until all barriers/sources of uncertainty have been removed. Closure is achieved when the limerent’s brain decides (1) “Okay, a relationship is going to happen” or (2) “Okay, a relationship isn’t going to happen”.
I got closure when my LO admitted (following his divorce) he was limerent as a teenager for the woman he married and he was limerent for her when she too was a teenager. (I.e. he was limerent for another the exact same time I was limerent for him. Therefore, logic dictates he wasn’t limerent for me. I fully accept Tennov’s view that people by definition can have only one LO at a time. (No hope, no uncertainty = case closed). Retrospective analysis has given me back my emotional freedom. But not everyone’s XLO is an exhibitionist who posts indiscreet videos online. 🙄
I don’t like seeing the suffering inherent in limerence downplayed, because I think such downplaying is dishonest and gives the general public the wrong impression, like limerents are a bunch of carefree hedonists or something. If you’re not suffering, you’re not limerent, in my book. Or, at the very least, you’re not a limerent with high support needs.
This is how I see it: limerence is a seesaw. One pays for one’s euphoria with despair. Despair and euphoria are two sides of the same coin. No despair/suffering = no euphoria/intense pleasure. After limerence, one stops experiencing rapture/misery in a really heavy involuntary way, although one might continue to cherish art, music, literature, etc, etc.
I’ve said this before. When I was a highschooler, I used to come home from school, lie on the floor of my bedroom, and just sob into a pillow. I felt so sad and so tired, and crying for extended periods didn’t “lessen the pain”. I’d come home the very next day, still sad, still tired, and repeat the exercise. I didn’t associate these “defeated” feelings with limerence at the time because I didn’t know I was lovesick. I just thought I was a less-than-devout believer and I need to get “closer to God” or some such.
When I was a highschooler, when certain songs played on the school bus radio, I would also tear up. I would experience ecstasy listening to said music. But I would experience sadness simultaneously. (LO nowhere in sight during these moments, btw. Thankfully, he didn’t take the bus).
I think one of those songs was the aptly named “High” by Lighthouse Family. I particularly liked the line: “One day we’re gonna to get so high”. Prophetic, really – although I was already high as a kite on the dream of an impossible love. My senses were greatly heightened. I barely ate or slept. I was always slipping off into reverie at the most inopportune moments. I wandered off for a walk by myself at school camp once, and the teachers thought I was smoking something illicit. (Otherwise why would I be sneaking off to be alone? What normal teenager wants to be alone?) 😜
I think, during limerence, people can also feel like they have a permanent migraine, or something like that. In Art class, I made a Toby jug of Princess Diana. It was a very beautiful jug, and I spent a lot of time on it. But one day I felt bad and I smashed the jug against a concrete path at home, and destroyed the jug. My mother thought I destroyed my jug because I was grieving the death of the beloved late Princess, who had recently passed away under tragic circumstances. But I think I destroyed the jug as a side-effect of unrequited limerence. (Anger at self? Frustration? Misplaced guilt and shame at not being able to “shake this thing”?)
I don’t know what I’d like to learn about in a book about limerence. I think the best thing I’ve learned is that one doesn’t feel desire/jealousy for platonic friends. If one is experiencing a lot of desire/jealousy in relation to another person, then that person is probably viewed in a romantic light. I have found Lucy Bain’s commentary on this subject helpful i.e. don’t befriend someone you adore because it will lead to immense suffering. Such befriending isn’t kind to oneself and it’s also not so kind to LO. 🙂
Serial Limerent says
Yeah, especially if the LE is reciprocated but there are barriers, it’s euphoria mixed with despair because this thing you want is close enough to grasp but you can’t. Or you could, but everything will blow up.
Snowpheonix says
I no longer admire or adore, even despise LO in a few ways, but I still can’t get him, as a human being, out of my mind… something familiar in him still reminds myself, and I feel deeply sad for that bit of unknown (despite the factual history maddens me)…
Although LO neither knows nor cares what I think or how I feel, I can’t help hold a deep care for my own sentiments….
Still unable to emotionally walk away totally from LO, (no longer attracted but saddened by his dimmed eyes)… why is this?
Snowpheonix says
I used to see LO as an idealized, surrogate parent, nowadays a vulnerable, insecure teenager boy.
I have this amount of sadness only for LO#1 and LO#7, both platonic.
LO#1 total emotional reciprocation seemed to have “destroyed” his happiness in the following decade(s)…
I ignorantly and knowingly turned down PA only “reciprocation” from LO#7, whose life appears quite “sunny”. But I still feel deep sadness for him and myself… is this still a part of limerence’s dark imagination/reverie?
But this time I’m tryin to stay with my sadness as long as I can (always ran away from it in the past); otherwise, it will keep coming back to sink me down… (it’s not depression distinctively)
Nisor says
Hi Snow, how are you doing?
I think you feel this sadness because you’re grieving for something that it’s coming to its end … You feel quite vulnerable now, and can see LO #7 for what he is, just another human being you had on a pedestal, now you can perceive him as a normal human with fears
and sadness , vulnerabilities , the same as yours , and anyone else’s. I’m supposing it’s that, don’t know for sure. He must be frightened and pensive for what happened with his job, he has a family to support and is worried about getting a new job. Normal stuff. Also, he may feel sentimental leaving the place and his colleagues and students. Memories of time past. It’s a humbling moment in his life, when sad feelings surface to the mind, maybe, I don’t know the man. May he find a job to his liking fast. And you too.
I’m glad Marcia is talking to you and coaching you on handling “ Romeo”, she makes me laugh a lot with her ideas! hahaha! She gives straight answers, no nonsense .
You stay calm, cool and collected and everything will be alright. Good things come to those who have patience. Courage and Hugs.
Adam says
Yeah Miss Marcia has a great way of giving it to you straight right out the gate. I found that out really fast after first posting here. I thought “Well damn Adam you managed to offend someone already. She’s never going to talk to you again.” But then I quickly found out that, no, it’s just the way she is. If you want to know her opinion you are going to get it with no filter. 🙂 And that can be a very good thing when it comes to limerence since you are in an altered state of mind and lots of people are looking for justification for limerence more than you are healing.
Snowpheonix says
😊 Dear Nisor,
Thank you for your sweet and caring message.
I’m doing ok in a sense that I’m NOT feeling depressed, but a well of entangled emotions, amid taking new pupils and preparing for the upcoming demo teaching for this job that I don’t really want: it’s a tough school (by rating) with a bunch of undisciplined HS kids. (heard from the colleague who introduced me the possibility)
“I think you feel this sadness because you’re grieving for something that it’s coming to its end … “
It’s definitely true that since very young, I’ve dreaded most of an ending, particularly departing from friends, close relatives, and even my graduating students. Now, a definitive departure with LO, whose EXISTENCE (not realistic LO himself ) and my LE with him have motivated and pushed me onto a never expected self-exploratory & developing journey and an enlightening individuation process. It’s just so sad to face such a forced ending! I’m still avoiding thinking about May 8th (our last final day), but do listen more to sad songs, such as Dinah’s”s “Over Here” — https://youtu.be/JIWjPg-ZTNo?si=pMrb9YiIl92yMSG2. (After listening to it 20 times in a row, I’d feel much less saddened)
“You feel quite vulnerable now, and can see LO #7 for what he is, just another human being you had on a pedestal, now you can perceive him as a normal human with fears and sadness , vulnerabilities , the same as yours , and anyone else’s. “
I think you’ve just nailed that vague sense of familiarity I see in LO #7, #1, #5 — VULNERABILITY, the vulnerability of longing to be loved/liked/admired, validated/accepted just as what one was/is and of fear to be rejected emotionally. You’re right that almost everyone has similar vulnerabilities. Whenever I was deeply submerged in your insightful mind, all I felt was the “universal”/buddhistic love (Mila talked about) for myself, LO (more than for me), xLOs, other people in reality (including Mom occasionally) and limerents ghosts here.
“I’m supposing it’s that, don’t know for sure. He must be frightened and pensive for what happened with his job, he has a family to support and is worried about getting a new job. Normal stuff. Also, he may feel sentimental leaving the place and his colleagues and students. Memories of time past. It’s a humbling moment in his life, when sad feelings surface to the mind, maybe, I don’t know the man. May he find a job to his liking fast. And you too.”
LO tries hard not to look upset or down or frightened, and is eagerly looking for work in his line, which is quite hard (he’s ready to go “down” to HS). I don’t think he’s financially worried since his SO has a steady job also as an established scholar, both his girls have a full scholarship in an elite college (his Alma Mater). At this moment when I’m typing, he’s seeing his secret LO somewhere (every Wednesday is his regular rendezvous time)… Still, he’s losing his career built in almost 20 years and has to re-start at age of 54 (still looking in early 40s). , and I see weary and dimmed light in his eyes and hear even softer voice. His shocking news is still two months old, mine 7 months.
“I’m glad Marcia is talking to you and coaching you on handling “ Romeo”, she makes me laugh a lot with her ideas! hahaha! She gives straight answers, no nonsense”
Marcia is just great in talking no nonsense, and she’s very understanding and funny 😂😂! I spent a lot of time and energy responding her questions and others’ posts here because it helps me organize my entangled thoughts and feel my foggy emotions — I have a habit of suppressing them and escaping into reasoning, which is not a “healthy” way (repressed emotions WILL come back!). It’s sad not to fully feel all emotions and let them organically dissipate, I need much more learning in this regard.
I am quite collected (have to with my tutoring) but experiencing all sort of emotions at daily basis, particularly this butterfly 🦋 buzzing inside: I do NOT know what is going to happen with my mind and heart as the “doomsday” is approaching fast…. (My glimmer does not help at all in this regard, I don’t replace/substitute one human being with another, everyone has her/his special value to me, taking an unique spot in my mind/herat)
No rumination or imagination at for Romeo, the glimmer is very calm. He’s a clean slate at this point, and I keep catching my “fancy” even when just a tiny bit surfaced (during our texting to postpone his class). Nothing I can expect from him yet besides his seemingly determined learning — he “promises” that he will not use Chat GPT to “cheat”. 👍🏼
Sending hugs 🫂 to your way!
Snowpheonix says
Adam,
I feel the same as you about Marcia, her straightforward opinions are very valuable to us softy hearted and muddle headed.
However, I don’t think all informed/learned limerents are looking for justification of their limerence. Whether still in an altered mind or 5/6 legs out of the deep mud pool, we can’t just yank ourselves out in one sword cut. Thoughts and emotions simply do not work that way.
I agree with the new post (by FinallyOvr) that some of us need to go through all limerence emotions, “allowing [one]self to feel EVERY shade of emotion vis a vis LO, without trying to suppress, guilt, deny, etc. “. My biggest mistake was trying to suppress, morally judge, deny, escape… which only made me STUCK in my limerence for 7 years! Unless I let all those shades of emotions “bravely and freely live” their life inside me (not acting them out), my limerence would NOT leave me, I’m quite convinced.
That’s what I was trying to do with Marcia, to feel and name whatever I had felt in the past and current LEs. Once those emotions — unburied ghosts, are acknowledged and validated by another sharp human ear, they immediately reduced their intensity and went their way…
I hope you continue feeling and doing better!
Adam says
Miss Snowphoniex
I don’t really think the desire for justification for limerence is necessarily intentional or conscious. When I go back and read my old comments (and I do it often to remind myself) that I cannot believe I wrote what I did. It was the ramblings of a mad man. I think if I had anyone I know (no one outside of here knows of my limerence) read what I posted they would have never connected it to me, despite the actual history of my life being present in those comments.
They would probably be like “wow that guy’s marriage sounds a lot like yours” but would never connect my fevered meandering back to me. It’s like “Adam” really is another person. I just needed the clarity from my state of mind to see that. And anonymous people on the internet that have no dog in the fight, unlike family, helped me see that. And I am in no way downplaying the immense support I got from my family getting through this. They just helped in a different way.
I think that’s why limerence seems so insidious to me. It’s like a cancer that slowly grows unknowingly, to you, until it fully metastasizes in you. Some can be saved. And some cannot.
But I will freely admit that I made it worse in the same way you did. The guilt, suppression, denial and moral judgement that I thrust at myself just prolonged it. It’s with the help of this community and love and forgiveness from my family that I have been able to face what I did and accept that it happened and strive to not let it happen again.
Hoping your day’s weather is as beautiful as it is here and that you have a wonderful day.
Marcia says
Hi Friends,
Watching a hideously boring training over Skype for work. The trainer, who is very cute, just mentioned having SIX kids and being married. He was the only thing keeping me awake. Don’t provide me a hunk trainer who’s married with the Brady Bunch! Now I’m even less interested in the training! I’m going to file a complaint with HR. 🙂
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
Just watching the trainer’s face and indulging a tiny bit of fancy to keep yourself awake!
You need a “naughty project” to stimulate us limerents’ mind!
Hmm…. Romeo’s birthday is coming up in two weeks falling on my tutoring him day. What would be an appropriate congratulatory gift? All I have now is (5) beautiful, thick rice-paper bookmarks bought in Louvre a couple of years ago (I’m not giving him all five!)
As a teacher, I still need to express something to a pupil, right?
Marcia says
Snow,
“Just watching the trainer’s face and indulging a tiny bit of fancy to keep yourself awake!”
He would need to start dancing to “It’s Raining Men” for me to stay awake … I’m so bored. 🙂
“Hmm…. Romeo’s birthday is coming up in two weeks falling on my tutoring him day. What would be an appropriate congratulatory gift? All I have now is (5) beautiful, thick rice-paper bookmarks bought in Louvre a couple of years ago (I’m not giving him all five!)
As a teacher, I still need to express something to a pupil, right?”
Yes, I think giving him one of the bookmarks would be a very nice gesture. A bookmark from the Louvre! Who wouldn’t love that? 🙂
Adam says
Miss Marcia (and I still pronounce it my way)
What I said is more akin to what LiS said. I had a very strict English teacher in high school. Pencil skirts, blouses, stockings, heels and button satin shirts. Hair, makeup, nails always immaculate. She took no $hit from no one. No talking out of turn. No talking over her. She tolerated no mischief. A slap with a ruler on your desktop to get your attention. And in my days a slap of a ruler on the hand was commonplace and no parents clutched their pearls. I have a great respect for authoritative women.
Disclaimer Miss Marcia I am not sober. But I wanted to explain myself as I took PTO for tomorrow and probably won’t check in till Monday.
Miss Snowphoenix
I always seem to fall for tomboys. To LO to my wife to every woman I have ever dated besides my possible first LO I can’t resist you tomboy gals.
Marcia says
Adam,
“I have a great respect for authoritative women.”
I have been told I would make a good dominatrix. 🙂
But, secretly, all women with tough personalities want someone to dominate them. 🙂
Limerent Emeritus says
“But, secretly, all women with tough personalities want someone to dominate them. 🙂”
I don’t know if “dominate” is the right term. I agree with the idea that tough women want someone who can look them in the eye and go toe-to-toe with them. I like the idea of being the consort of a powerful woman.
At the height of things, I was so close to asking LO #4, “Have you ever been with a man who wasn’t afraid of you?”
But, I’m smart enough to not ask questions that I really don’t want to know the answers to and that question definitely fell into “What would you do with that knowledge if you had it?” territory.
Marcia says
LE,
“I don’t know if “dominate” is the right term. I agree with the idea that tough women want someone who can look them in the eye and go toe-to-toe with them. ”
Yes, I would agree. Also, someone not afraid to call them on their crap, if necessary.
Snowpheonix says
@Adam
“I always seem to fall for tomboys. To LO to my wife to every woman I have ever dated besides my possible first LO I can’t resist you tomboy gals.”
Then, I can never meet you in person; otherwise, you’d run away out of a disappointment —— I never looked like a tomboy in reality! I was just a paper tiger inside…. Now that tiger gets to roar in LwL land only…
@LE,
“I don’t know if “dominate” is the right term. I agree with the idea that tough women want someone who can look them in the eye and go toe-to-toe with them. I like the idea of being the consort of a powerful woman.”
I like the both ideas! When putting that inner child to sleep, here is a tomboy who likes a consort walking beside her… 😜
@Marcia,
“Yes, I would agree. Also, someone not afraid to call them on their crap, if necessary.”
Yes. Someone could openly admit their mistakes and apologize like a true gentleman.
Marcia says
Snow,
“Yes. Someone could openly admit their mistakes and apologize like a true gentleman.”
Well, yes, but I meant they call YOU on YOUR crap. I don’t want someone kissing my butt. If I’m acting like a moron, have the guts to tell me.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“I meant they call YOU on YOUR crap. I don’t want someone kissing my butt. If I’m acting like a moron, have the guts to tell me.”
Then, It’s two-way traffic! I want to this “calling” to be civil, gentle, knowledgeable on both side; two can feel free and equal to speak up, discuss, and dissolve issues when craps occur. Both sides “serve” as a teacher and a pupil when it’s called for, learn from each other and together, and grow wiser and closer together…
Marcia says
Snow,
“Then, It’s two-way traffic! I want to this “calling” to be civil, gentle, knowledgeable on both side; two can feel free and equal to speak up, discuss, and dissolve issues when craps occur. Both sides “serve” as a teacher and a pupil when it’s called for, learn from each other and together, and grow wiser and closer together…”
Yes. I’ve read some women want the man to treat her like a queen. I don’t want to be a queen. I want to be someone’s equal.
Snowpheonix says
Nisor,
“I think of you as a matured handsome gay man, a gentleman, kind and deep, very decent person, who is mischievous and likes to make jokes. A fun person who is carefree and doesn’t give a damn of what others say about you, even though you are a very sensitive one. “
He did not appear funny, mischievous, carefree at all in my dream where you would meet him in person… He looked deep, tolerant, reserved, sensitive, poised-relaxing and his expression looked like he had just recovered from a big illness, despite his physique was firm. Yet, one could not predict anything that he might do in that huge cosmopolitan city where anything is possible to happen…. I only wished that he’d show up at dinner time to meet you, so to pleasantly surprise both of you…. 😇
“A person I would feel very proud to be next to and enjoy his mischief…”
As an unlucky single child, I always wanted to adopt a big bro/sis, to play 🎾 or 🏓 or 🤺, but he kept spitting fire at me out of blue or his grandpa crankiness…. 🙄 (more fun to break into his room to 😈! )
Images in a draam override all conscious imaginations — a power of Unconscious!
Nisor says
@Marcia
Go ahead and file that complaint with HR, they should at least provide “cute” trainers, single, when the training is boring.
This trainer spoiled your flights of fancy, no, no good at all. Could this be a reason for letting him go? Can he be replaced? hahaha.
Sorry you’re bored with the training . Have a happy day. 💪🏽
Snowpheonix says
Nisor,
Wow, Exotic looking! I wish I could meet you in person soon! {keeping saying it may bring me another dream to see you} I may have a chance to visit Florence next spring, is it close to your place? If so, could I stop by to say “Hollo”?
I’m a bit luckier than Marcia, I’ve got Romeo to train…⚡️😵💫 trying to keep my head cool so it will last longer… Earlier today I texted him to see how he was doing, he said he’s recovered and we’ll resume our session on Monday.
Marcia says
Nisor,
“Go ahead and file that complaint with HR, they should at least provide “cute” trainers, single, when the training is boring.”
I agree. I should at least be given a seat on the Trainer Hiring Committee. I need to see the resumes, with head shots, and a “Skills” section that includes their dancing skills. 🙂
Marcia says
Snow,
“I’ve got Romeo to train…⚡️😵💫 trying to keep my head cool so it will last longer… Earlier today I texted him to see how he was doing, he said he’s recovered and we’ll resume our session on Monday.”
Get that bookmark ready. 🙂 Is Monday his birthday?
I’d like to have one. I think I’ve been a good enough friend to earn a Louvre bookmark. 🙂
Imho says
Loving this fun interaction conversation !
I visualise many of you!
@Bewitched, I love your summary profile guesses of everyone. you had me mostly correct, except the blond. I do wonder if you live most nearby to me or even work at my same organisation ! Unlikely but you never know.
@Mila. ‘Your’ voice is on android /Google, and not apple ( I checked as I have an iPad too)
Your voice is ‘English UK’ on android/google.
On Apple you can still switch on read aloud or text to speech.
If you go to Settings, Accessibility, Spoken Content, Voices and you can choose your preferred voice there.
Once you have it set, you can highlight text and then choose ‘speak’ and then the text turns to audio. It’s cool !
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
It’s not on this Monday, but the April Fool’s day.
Of course, I’d give you one of the bookmarks from Louvre. There is water-color painting with a beautifully handwriting calligraphy printed on each bookmark, respectively: “Spring”, “Summer”, “Fall”, “Winter”, “Love” (I keep this one for a future SO), Romeo gets “Spring”, which one of other three you would like to have (close to your birth month)?
If you have your address sent to DrL then to me (you don’t have to tell me your real name), I’ll mail it to you. 🤝
ps. It doesn’t matter how you describe your realistic appearance, what is depicted in my mind based on your posts stubbornly states with me, which is totally VALID.
Words create their images and narratives, not up to a writer’s intentions, but a listener’s imaginations. 💭
Snowpheonix says
Typo: “stays with me”.
Marcia says
Snow,
“It’s not on this Monday, but the April Fool’s day.”
Ah, ok. It’s 2.5 weeks from now. I’ll have to think of a good April Fool’s Day joke for him. Let me process. 🙂
“If you have your address sent to DrL then to me (you don’t have to tell me your real name), I’ll mail it to you. 🤝”
I was teasing a bit, but it’s sweet of you to offer.
“It doesn’t matter how you describe your realistic appearance, what is depicted in my mind based on your posts stubbornly states with me, which is totally VALID.”
Hey, if you want to think of me as being in my 20s, I’m not going to try to stop you. I don’t mind being the cute one of the blog. 🙂
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“Hey, if you want to think of me as being in my 20s, I’m not going to try to stop you. I don’t mind being the cute one of the blog. 🙂”
It’s not the matter of I “want” or not, my mind just goes its own way, disobeying my intellectualizing based on the fact. So you’re going to remain “the cute one of the blog” until I behold you in person. 👧
This phenomenon has just made me realize why it’s so hard to pull out my OCD mode or limerence rumination when they were stuck in whatever the mind was obsessing. Objectively, my logical thinking knew some realistic facts about LO, but the mind stubbornly believed its own created illusions/distortions (mostly positive) of LO — the Phantom, and refused to come out there to accept the reality, which made it so hard to remove a LE in the past, until next LO intruded and pushed out the former one. Then the OCD mind began its new “addiction”…
Now, I am learning how NOT to make Romeo/any guy another LO. I hope a constant reality check and a sharp awareness of my mind’s tendency to imagine-stray on its own could and would prevent me from slipping into another LE.
Marcia says
Snow,
“So you’re going to remain “the cute one of the blog” until I behold you in person. 👧”
Ha! And if you met me, I’d then become the “old one of the blog.” The old broad! Not a title I ever wanted!
“which made it so hard to remove a LE in the past, until next LO intruded and pushed out the former one. Then the OCD mind began its new “addiction”…”
I’ve wondered that about myself as well. I seemed to have had to go from mental placeholder to mental placeholder, always having some LO or crush to occupy my thoughts. This is the longest I’ve gone without either.
Snowpheonix says
Miss Marcia,
“Ha! And if you met me, I’d then become the “old one of the blog.” The old broad! Not a title I ever wanted!”
Nay! Are you going to push our Nisor out of her crowned Chair? If LwL “beholds” our 🫂 as “twin sisters” 🦚🦚, all 👽👽 will feel happily envy 👻👻!
“I’ve wondered that about myself as well. I seemed to have had to go from mental placeholder to mental placeholder, always having some LO or crush to occupy my thoughts. This is the longest I’ve gone without either.”
Maybe we both share the similar nasty OCD, a consequence of cptsd, in which we needed so badly to “nest”/hide in an obsessed fantasy —“mental placeholder”, so as to emotionally “escape” our pitiful and painful lot — an abusive parent and the consequential and accompanying traumas (definitely in my case). This is my own deduction (just coming out of our little dialogue right now) of how OCD was developed as a part of cptsd….
DrL might have a better explanation from a neurological perspective.
Congratulations, Sister, for having no LO/crush for a while! I’m not totally out of LE #7 yet, but it’s small a progress that Romeo has not turned to LO #8 yet. In the past, it would take a couple of hours for him to push LO #7 out and become a new LO.
I think the nugget I’ve taken from LwL is helping my mind stay in reality — striping “the idealized phantom” off the LO, and not putting any fantasy coat on Romeo; thus seeing/handling them both as an ordinary human being, co-existing in my reality at least for a couple of months.
More importantly, to keep jutting down my thoughts here would help me examine and rein my wild and fluffy imaginations. 🦄
Marcia says
Snow,
“Nay! Are you going to push our Nisor out of her crowned Chair? ”
No, not at all. I didn’t realize she’d already been crowned. I will honor her title. 🙂
“Maybe we both share the similar nasty OCD, a consequence of cptsd, in which we needed so badly to “nest”/hide in an obsessed fantasy —“mental placeholder”, so as to emotionally “escape” our pitiful and painful lot — an abusive parent and the consequential and accompanying traumas (definitely in my case).”
The problem is … when you stop escaping into the fantasy … you have to deal with the reality. Not always fun.
“I think the nugget I’ve taken from LwL is helping my mind stay in reality — striping “the idealized phantom” off the LO, and not putting any fantasy coat on Romeo; thus seeing/handling them both as an ordinary human being, co-existing in my reality at least for a couple of months.”
That’s good. It’s, of course, a better response. I can’t lie that there isn’t a small part of me that misses the romanticism and the idealization. I know it’s not as healthy to feel that way about someone. I get it.
Adam says
Laying in the hotel bed while my wife still sleeps contemplating eating leftovers from dinner last night and a beer for breakfast I’ve had a good time reading this conversation.
As far as the gentleman aspect of the conversation goes; it reminds me of two things my father told me that I’ve never forgotten.
If a woman doesn’t have a man to care for her then you be that man.
A man doesn’t open doors, pull out chairs and carry things because he thinks she is incapable. He does those things for her because he wants her to know she’s valued and worthy of respect.
Also as far as my headcanon goes Bewitched is Elizabeth Montgomery’s ghost.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
Last night I said I am not putting any fantasy coat on Romeo, then in my dreams of this dawn, my Unconscious put on a classical villain 🦹 coat on him 😱 …. Gosh!
Luckily, he’s realistically sweet, stunning, Romeo enough to conquer my dream depictions of him…. I’m still “recovering” from this “returning” dreams…
Watch out what thoughts to put in one’s head before shutting down one’s eyes for night!
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“The problem is … when you stop escaping into the fantasy … you have to deal with the reality. Not always fun.”
Very true. So I normally escape into books or Netflix, just to avoid staring at the reality. However, this time, my reality has not run to its “dismay” peak that is coming in May, and I’m running around with the job situation, so feeling too unsettled to feel grayness of the reality. Still, melancholy is lurking very close by. 😨
“I can’t lie that there isn’t a small part of me that misses the romanticism and the idealization. I know it’s not as healthy to feel that way about someone. I get it.”
I’m totally with you. There is a bigger part of me still romanticizes and idealizes, not just about old LO, but other people/ghosts and matters, which are currently in my reality and LwL. As long as I don’t act on any ridiculously illogical fantasy, what’s the harm of it? 🫠
Romanticizing can be applied in many areas of life, e.g. my new pupils, send that bookmark to Miss Marcia in a snail mail…. it’s just a part of my nature, why do I need or want to change it? 😊
Marcia says
Snow,
“Romanticizing can be applied in many areas of life, e.g. my new pupils, send that bookmark to Miss Marcia in a snail mail…. it’s just a part of my nature, why do I need or want to change it? 😊”
I don’t know about you, but romanticizing and idealization have led to a lot of disappoinment. In people, in jobs, etc. The chasm between what is and how I want things to be.
There’s a great line in the play “The Rainmaker.”
“Nothing’s as pretty in your hands as it was in your head.” Truer words were never written.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia Sis,
Apology in advance if I repeat myself and sound preaching or patronizing again.
“I don’t know about you, but romanticizing and idealization have led to a lot of disappointment. In people, in jobs, etc. The chasm between what is and how I want things to be.”
Disappointment comes ONLY from Expectations, NOT a desire (romanticizing or idealizing) itself. I grew up with a Buddhistic tradition that believes in Fate, not meritocracy. When it comes to matters involving other people, be they jobs, friendship, relationship, one only has 50% of chance to get to where one “wants things to be”. We habitually accept that with all one’s might (wealth, power, fame, beauty, etc), s/he may still NOT reach where s/he wants to be. It is a default of life, just as that “Fortune” Lady in the West.
We were taught since young that Fate plays a hand at almost every matters in life. We were disciplined and trained to be competitive, but always reminded that we still could fail due to Fate. So we desired/wanted, made efforts, but prepared for and expect a worst. Anything better than an expected worst would be viewed as a Bonus. In Fact, pessimism has been practiced far more than optimism. This is where Buddhism resembles Stoicism.
When NOT in LEs or dealing with other matters (other than romantic relationship), I allow myself to romanticize and even act on some romantic deeds; however, I almost always prepared for a worst consequential reaction. If it did happen, my disappointment would NOT be shocking, since it has been expected already. I prepared a rejection on every single job I interviewed, and got an offer 99% of the time (Lucky never was in a desperate position).
“There’s a great line in the play “The Rainmaker.”
“Nothing’s as pretty in your hands as it was in your head.” Truer words were never written.”
So just let something stay beautiful and alive in one’s head, instead of trying to get hold of it in one’s hand! Why a need to OWN something or someone? (Even if one can be owned!) I still can’t get use to this American dream — consumerism, be it for tangible or intangible stuff. The worst activity for me is SHOPPING (especially in Malls), which made me physically dizzy and mentally depressed every single time!
That’s what I see where a lot of unhappiness and anxiety lie in many people especially in the West: they want so many things so badly, particularly instant gratifications — here and now. After getting them (much easier in the past 2 -3 decades), they find they’re not happy or their contentment fade fast….
Even in limerence, I so desired to get a LO and imagined that once I got him, the life would be peachy every single day. Then, I got my SO. What happened soon after?
I really admire and agree with Oscar Wilde’s insight, “ There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it. ”
The challenge lies in keeping desiring/romanticizing without caring about outcomes — others’ (re)actions.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
Isn’t it funny how LOs are (1) not relationship material (because usually we can’t date them) and (2) not friendship material (because often we can’t evict them from our heads?)
Here is a sonnet by American poet Edna St Vincent Millay, which I think depict limerence beautifully:
“Time does not bring relief; you all have lied”
Time does not bring relief; you all have lied
Who told me time would ease me of my pain!
I miss him in the weeping of the rain;
I want him at the shrinking of the tide;
The old snows melt from every mountain-side,
And last year’s leaves are smoke in every lane;
But last year’s bitter loving must remain
Heaped on my heart, and my old thoughts abide.
There are a hundred places where I fear
To go,—so with his memory they brim.
And entering with relief some quiet place
Where never fell his foot or shone his face
I say, “There is no memory of him here!”
And so stand stricken, so remembering him.
Mila says
Beautiful poem!
I recently went to a concert of Schuberts „Winterreise“and although it’s of course in the end about much more than limerence for a girl that didn’t want him, it’s still at least at the beginning about limerence in its worst form…
I never can stop myself from crying during „Winterreise“ (although the pianist wasn’t quite what I liked etc, Schubert always wins) such poignant music.
Sammy says
@Mila.
Glad you like the poem, Mila. It is rather beautiful. That concert of Schubert sounds very interesting, limerence storyline and all.
I see that I should be careful with what I say on LwL. Peculiar words I recognise from my own vocabulary are cropping up in other people’s comments with alarming frequency: “patronising”, “robot”, “high priestess”. (I had no idea anyone actually listened to me). 🙄😆
If Snowphoenix is the high priestess of whatever she is the high priestess of (I’ll let her decide that one), and you’re the high priestess of whatever you’re the high priestess of, I would like to nominate myself as the “President of the Committee for the Suppression of Excessive Romantic Behaviour”. 😜
If you don’t get the reference, it’s from the British comedy “Keeping Up Appearances”. There’s a prudish character called Councillor Mrs Nugent, who’s always frowning on “excessive romantic behaviour” and thinks such behaviour should be quashed.
Councillor Mrs Nugent is a kind of modern-day Mrs Grundy. She makes me laugh. I see a bit of myself in Councillor Mrs Nugent. 😇
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy
Thank you for the poem you’ve posted, it’s beautifully sad… I have a small question regarding the language: why does the speaker use the word “must”? Does she command her “bitter loving” to stay?
It’s even sadder in my LE in which there are less than 5 places, the memory of the Phantom would make them “brim”… 😞
“Isn’t it funny how LOs are (1) not relationship material (because usually we can’t date them) and (2) not friendship material (because often we can’t evict them from our heads?)”
It’s not funny at all but sad that limerence is neither friendship nor relationship with a LO but a fantasy-ship with our own head: in its surge, it could produce most beautiful and magnificent music, songs, epic poems, timeless love tales… ; but in its ebb, it could send a pistol to limerent’s head or hand…. (A beautiful, beloved COO actress killed herself due to a unrequited “love”)
Snowphoenix is a high-priestess of melancholy, of emotional fluctuation, of restlessness, of smothered “robot”….
Sammy Sammash, feel free to sparkle or fire up… the turbulent air might be necessary to toughen a firebird’s wings 🪽
Here is where my tiny knucklehead is:
https://youtu.be/r-SZ_e5GWMc?si=v9ImYRHBgwOWkn72 —
Rachmaninoff — Piano Concerto NO. 2 1, Moderato
Mila says
Hi Sammy Nugent,
well,“patronizing“ is a verb I love and like to use simply because there is no exactly similar word in my language, and „robot“ is something that‘s common in internet use, no?
At least they always ask me if I‘m a robot and show me pictures of motorbikes, bridges and whatnot;)
I don’t know this British comedy! But I‘d certainly need a Mrs Nugent now and then, not because of romantic behavior but inappropriate romantic thoughts.
Being the high priestess of anything sounds like a nice compliment to me, I think it was highs and lows in limerence. I imagine long flattering tunics , incense-laden air, low humming voices chanting.
Certainly a more flattering image than I have of my limerent self (whiny, petulant, depressed or manic, clumsy, unfair..)
Snowpheonix says
Ballade at Thirty-five
Dorothy Parker
1893 –1967
This, no song of an ingénue,
This, no ballad of innocence;
This, the rhyme of a lady who
Followed ever her natural bents.
This, a solo of sapience,
This, a chantey of sophistry,
This, the sum of experiments,—
I loved them until they loved me.
Decked in garments of sable hue,
Daubed with ashes of myriad Lents,
Wearing shower bouquets of rue,
Walk I ever in penitence.
Oft I roam, as my heart repents,
Through God’s acre of memory,
Marking stones, in my reverence,
“I loved them until they loved me.”
Pictures pass me in long review,—
Marching columns of dead events.
I was tender, and, often, true;
Ever a prey to coincidence.
Always knew I the consequence;
Always saw what the end would be.
We’re as Nature has made us—hence
I loved them until they loved me.
L’Envoi:
Princes, never I’d give offense,
Won’t you think of me tenderly?
Here’s my strength and my weakness, gents,—
I loved them until they loved me.
*****
A limerent’s chase?
Snowpheonix says
Mila,
“I‘d certainly need a Mrs Nugent now and then, not because of romantic behavior but inappropriate romantic thoughts.”
Emotions and thoughts (average 70k-80k each day) come and go, not sure if Mrs. Nugent could help stop them whether inappropriate or over romantic. As you says (as well FinallyOvr) that we need to experiences them fully before they (demanding ghosts of limerence emotions and thoughts) would let our mind rest in peace.
“Being the high priestess of anything sounds like a nice compliment to me, I think it was highs and lows in limerence. I imagine long flattering tunics , incense-laden air, low humming voices chanting. Certainly a more flattering image than I have of my limerent self (whiny, petulant, depressed or manic, clumsy, unfair..)”
I’ve been in your shoes 👠 👠 (plus extra width) on and off, merry-go-around, again and again… Nowadays, even after knowing their natures and taking a bit ease in resisting them, I’m still dragged down, feeling physically tired and weary.
I also have a mental image of you that would not go away — I could not help think you are a German, somewhat like a German gf I had but not so much in touch nowadays…
Nisor and Marcia described their appearance and physique, but my mental pictures of them stubborn stay in my head. DrL and Sammy have no choice but carry the image my Unconscious dreams have given them. I know it’s all unrealistic, but my mind couldn’t help it, isn’t it so bizarre⁉️
Mila says
Hi Snowphoenix,
yes, at the moment I let the thoughts come and go without trying to stop them either way.
Maybe it’s good, maybe not, we‘ll see..
I‘m afraid you cannot guess my appearance;)it’s a bit difficult in my case.
Sorry I won’t describe it to you, I’m scared to be too recognizable, although I have to say, I wrote so much that an attentive person who knows me would probably recognize a lot of my comings and goings and thus me.
Maybe I should be more careful.
Imho says
Well Snow, I think it’s obvious that Mila in real life is Claudia Schiffer ! 😂
Mila says
Oh no, my cover is blown. The Paparazzi will go crazy now! Will hide in my 6 million yacht somewhere in the Caribbean.
Snowpheonix says
Mila,
I do not need you to describe your appearance to me at all. My point is that based on one’s words, my conscious mind could not help create a mental image of a speaker; and no matter what you describe, that imagine stubbornly stays, unless one day I meet that speaker in reality or his or her image is revealed, which would not happen here.
So you’ll have to live my mental depiction of you. 😄
Snowpheonix says
Imho,
Actually, my mental images of Mila is not far from Claudia Schiffer, how interesting! 🤗
You haven’t spoken enough for my mind to form an image yet… 😄
Mila says
Yes please, imagine me as Claudia Schiffer, I like that very much! 🙂 finally a top model!
Mila says
Although I googled her now and her face looks really creepy these days. Can I please be Claudia Schiffer twenty years ago or without any work done on her face?
Lost in Space says
Mila – it’s the internet, you can look like whatever you want! 😁
Adam says
In my years on the internet (since 1999) for the forums/communities that allow avatars I tend to associate the gender (if that is distinguishable) of their avatar (I think the kids call them “pfp” now) with that person behind the keyboard. We don’t have that here at LwL. So a lot of you, until I revealing statement, I associated a gender and age to you without knowing for sure. It helps me ground what a person is saying anonymously and make it seem more human.
Like L.E. I did not initially think he was as old as he is until he said something about his age. I pictured him much younger but just as sophisticated as an older man.
I’m glad you like the “Miss” Snowphoniex as I pictured you a man initially. I dunno why. Don’t feel too bad I thought Sammy was a lady. Sorry Sammy. You’re too introspective and perceptive to be a man. Now that I use the “Miss” I won’t forget lol
Until Miss Lovisa talked about her children, with as much as she loves running, I pictured her a very athletic, fit, attractive young woman. From what I have learned from her posts the only thing I got wrong was young. At least in age. As she is young at heart.
Mila, similar, but not so much to Nina, a young lady that I worked with way back in the 90’s. To which I would always sing “Oh see that girl , watch that scene, Nina (digging) the dancing queen” even though she didn’t have any clue what I was referencing lol So you look like her in my head.
When I would talked to Miss Marcia I wasn’t sure what to see. A very strict, well dressed teacher, being she is so candid and forthright? And when I would mention her to Momma I would say Miss Mar-see-a. My wife asked how she spelled her name and I said M-a-r-c-i-a. And she said I think it’s pronounced Marsha. And so now Miss Marcia is my Aunt Marsha lol Which is a compliment. She is the one stable and sane sibling of my father’s.
If it weren’t for quitting time and work and I’m ready to go home I could go on and on. All ya’ll have a physical appearance, age and gender in my head. And of course Dr L is the proper and posh British doctor that fits right into us American’s stereotypes of British folk. Sorry Dr L. Maybe I will make it to the UK or Britain and see what British folks are really like.
Imho says
Hi Mila, aka Claudia.
Of course, Claudia circa year 2000 !
Hi Snow, I am Cindy Crawford, well known best friend of Claudia !
I like Adam’s reply.
I also visualise people on here and try to guess which country and age.
(Adam in his waistcoat and hat ! )
Marcia says
Adam,
“When I would talked to Miss Marcia I wasn’t sure what to see. A very strict, well dressed teacher, being she is so candid and forthright? ”
That’s how you picture me? 🙁
That’s the equivalent of me saying I picture a guy wearing a Mr. Rodger’s cardigan and tan khakis.
Snowpheonix says
Adam,
I’m happy to be pictured as a tomboy/man! 😅😂
Initially I thought Sammy was a woman, too! My dream did not picture him as a woman, but it’s already after the fact that he’s not a woman.
IMHO,
Cindy Crawford is very, very attractive! 🌹
Lost in Space says
Idk, I think a strict, well-dressed teacher could be pretty hot…
When I first met my SO, one of my friends described her look as “hot librarian” and I liked that descriptor a lot. SO later became a high school English teacher for about 5 years – she wouldn’t have been described as a well-dressed strict one by any means, but we hung out with a lot of teachers after work at the teacher bar sometimes, and I can report that some of the well-dressed strict ones could definitely let loose after hours 🤣
Serial Limerent says
Yeah, picture the one in the Van Halen “Hot for Teacher” video back in the 80s. 🙂
Marcia says
Lost in Space,
“Idk, I think a strict, well-dressed teacher could be pretty hot…”
It sounded like he was implying I had 15 cats. 🙂
I’ve heard of the hot librarian fantasy for men.
I don’t there’s the equivalent for women.
Snowpheonix says
@ Sammy,
I’m watching the movie “Tom & Viv” and just heard the following public talk from T.S. Elliot —
“No poet can truthfully tell you the origin of a poem,
however personal a poem may seem.
What makes it a poem
will not derive from the fact that it is personal.
Poetry is not an expression of emotion
but an escape from emotion.“
What do you think of such statement? Is it true just T.S. Elliot, or somewhat true to poetry in general?
T.S. Elliot has a turbulent marriage with his emotionally unstable wife, so I can see how writing pomes might be an escape for him. But could limerents possibly write poems to escape their limerence pains?
What/how did you feel when you were writing your epic poem and other poems? 🧐
Sammy says
“I thought Sammy was a lady. Sorry Sammy. You’re too introspective and perceptive to be a man.” @Adam
“Initially I thought Sammy was a woman, too!” @Snowphoenix
Oh my God. You people are monsters! Absolute monsters I say! I’m a boy. I swear I’m a boy. I even have the collection of seven hundred and forty-two priceless porcelain dolls to prove it… 🙄🤣
Actually, I was thinking about this today. I’m not really offended by anything people say about me on LwL, because (a) you guys routinely misinterpret everything I say and (b) my gay male friends have already assigned me far more embarrassing nicknames.
In gay male circles, my honorific is “Grandma”. To add insult to injury, the gay men who call me “Grandma” are at least a decade older than me. I have decided very sensibly that they are celebrating my truly timeless wisdom and not my physical appearance. 😉
Mila says
Funny that you all have these pictures in your head! I searched my head, and I don’t have any that wouldn’t be inspired by your descriptions of your appearance if you made any(I‘ve got a picture of Snow in my head and know that Adam likes to dress well , that Lovisa and LiS are sporty types). I just have the nicknames in my head, they seem to have a picture themselves, the sound of them, don’t know how to describe it- but I certainly don’t have hair colors, heights etc pictured in my mind.
When I think harder, I think that I assume that all of you are good-looking and attractive. Maybe because most of you write so well and attractively.
When, how LiS said, can look like whatever I want here, I wouldn’t choose Claudia Schiffer (no offense, Claudia Schiffer fans). But what would I choose? I actually like how I look in real life..
Maybe a redhead? I always admired red hair, the smooth shiny variety, not too bright and fuzzy, it’s quite rare..
Imho says
I sometimes use the ‘read aloud’ function on the posts. So I think Mila sounds like that voice over lady who reads it. She has a neutral accent.
It’s very funny she reads limerence as ‘lime-rence’ !
So I think of rinsing limes under the tap.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix, Mila, Marcia, etc.
Ah-ah-ah. All you girls are so sweet it’s hard to stay cranky at you. Although I’m not sure why I’m pretending to be cranky with you in the first place? Maybe LwL is triggering some age regression in me? I’m reverting to an age much younger than my 40-odd years. 😁
When I was a little boy, I had a younger sister. My younger sister would open the door to my bedroom and run in all the time. I would pretend to be outraged at my sister for intruding and chase her out again. But actually I came to enjoy my sister breaking into my room, disturbing the peace, and my sister enjoyed being chased out. On the surface, it looked like we were fighting – or that my sister was upsetting me. But actually we were playing a strange game…
When I was a little boy, I would also wrap a rainbow blanket around my waist, and pretend it was some gorgeous ballgown. Whilst attired thus, I declared myself queen (of the entire universe, what else?) and boss my younger sister around. My younger sister was a most disloyal, most disobedient, most disappointing subject. I could never convince her to do a single darn thing. So much for “royal authority”! 😉🤣
Mila, I’m glad you like the word “high priestess” and think it has romantic overtones. I’m glad you can adopt it for your own purposes…
“Patronising” is a glorious word, although in English it has slightly negative connotations. I don’t know if you’ve seen the British drama “Downton Abby”. When I patronise people, I’m invariably channelling the Dowager Countess of Downton Abbey i.e. the character played by beloved character actress Dame Maggie Smith.
It’s not really my place to tell you girls what to do. Also, it’s not my place to tell you how to behave. However, if you choose to take inspiration from me on one or two little things occasionally, that’s cool.
Rest assured I don’t feel angry at anyone. Snowphoenix is capable of pushing my emotional buttons very slightly, in the exact same way my younger sister pushed my emotional buttons when we were both children. But such pushing doesn’t provoke anger – only a bit of feigned exasperation. (Oh God. Not you-know-who at the door again. What does she want now?) 🙄😜
Pretty much the only person I ever feel anger at is myself. However, after talking with Frederico, I realise that I’m not even angry at younger me for the way I handled certain situations.
“Overmature” is a word that is sometimes used to describe gay men in certain contexts. I think gay men often grow up in environments where they’re expected to behave better than peers, certainly better than other males the same age. But the pressure to “always be a role model” can make it hard to get along with one’s peers and hard to sympathise with the concerns of people in the same age bracket.
In response to Allie’s comment of some time ago, it’s not the I view women as a different species. I think I view OTHER PEOPLE, irrespective of sex, as a different species. And hence I feel like I’m a different species to other people. I often feel alienated from the entire human race. It’s not that other people are weird per se. It’s just that some days I almost forget that I’m a human too. 😇
If any of you alleged German supermodels have a spare pair of gold stilettos in your closet, men’s size 13 or bigger, I will gladly take them off your hands. They might match my rainbow blanket dress. 😉
Nisor says
Sammy boy,
Idk why but I never pictured you as women. I think of you as a matured handsome guy man, a gentleman, kind and deep, very decent person, who is mischievous and likes to make jokes. A fun person who is carefree and doesn’t give a damn of what others say about you, even though you are a very sensitive one. A person I would feel very proud to be next to and enjoy his mischief…
Have a great day . Hugs. 💪🏽
Nisor says
S@Sammy
Correction : a gay man
Mila says
Imho,
although I don’t pronounce limerence that way, it’s quite possible I could,because I write/read more in English than I speak and am surprised by the pronunciation of some words I knew only in writing when I watch something in English…
I‘m a bit worried about this read-aloud woman. Where can I find this function, I want to hear what I sound like in your head🙈i‘ve got an apple ipad…
Mila says
Sammy,
I never pictured you as a woman either. You are definitely male, maybe shimmery and elegant like your writing, but definitely male.
But I was always wondering why you described yourself always as kind of that wisened old man (maybe the reason why your friends call you grandma?) ,wondering not because you wouldn’t be wise,but because then you say you are forty-something, which isn’t old at all in my book.
I mean, we are probably the same age, and while I don’t think I‘m young anymore, I don’t feel that old either… so for my own vanity, please don’t describe yourself as old😂😂
Actually, I cannot identify myself with „high priestess“at all, to be honest.
I love the picture of you in rainbow blanket with gold stilettos.
Mila says
Adam,
Nina, ok. What did she look like?
I‘m getting rather obsessed now with being a read aloud-woman called Nina.
I know two Ninas, one is a bit self-centered and has this fake laugh, but still easy to get along with- the other one is also a bit self-centered, but very attractive and can be also very nice. So I‘ll go for the second one😆
Bewitched says
This is a fantastic distraction!
OK, here is my vote for how people ‘look’ in my subconcious when reading your comments on LwL – and I only comment on the posters who I have a clearer picture of:
@Mila – small, dark, wiry (strong and thin), medium length hair
@Imho – middle height, long fair hair, colourful clothes
@Sammy – tall, blond, thin
@Snowpheonix – small, dark eyes and hair, sallow skin
@Nisor – grey beautiful luscious long hair, small in height
@Adam – tall, fair, beard
@Marcia – middle height, dark haired, strong body (muscular?)
@Lovisa – small, thin, tanned and blond-haired
@MJ – definitely dark hair
@DrL – also definitely dark hair
Speedy, LiS & LE, ABCD, I have no idea 🙂 Maybe ABCD is dark….
Lost in Space says
“When I think harder, I think that I assume that all of you are good-looking and attractive”
Welcome to LwL, where the women are strong, the men are good-looking, and the children are all above-average!
(Curious to see how many folks here will know that reference)
Happy Friday everyone!
Snowpheonix says
“Welcome to LwL, where the women are strong, the men are good-looking, and the children are all above-average!”
Some adjectives are missing ⬆️:
Welcome to LwL, where the women are strong 💪 , hilarious, 😂 drop-dead gorgeous 💃🏻, the men are good-looking 😎, funny 😅, teary 🥹 , and the children are all above-average, 👯♀️ self-spoiled 🐥, whiny 🐣, fiery 🔥🐯 !
Mila says
Bewitched,
„ @Mila – small, dark, wiry (strong and thin), medium length hair“
It’s probably not too revealing to say that you are not very far off the mark- take out strong and wiry🙈, should work out more, also what’s medium length? Not sure.
I don’t picture Lovisa as blonde, somehow, more brunette.
LiS,
I had to google your quote, I don’t know that show since I’m European-based 🤷🏻♀️
Snowpheonix says
Mila,
I pictured you between 5’5”-5’6”, not sure why. You’re not short, under 5’4”.
Marcia told me she’s 5’4”, but I still “see” her as 5’2”, black hair in her late 20s.
Nisor also appears short to my mind….
Sammy, 5’10’- 6’0” ish, black hair. I can’t picture him in blonde hair, no way I could “adopt” a blonde hair Bro. He carries Dimash face but more angular and maturer.
Our brain works so mysteriously…⁉️
Snowpheonix says
I pictured both Adam and Limerent Emeritus are masculinely built, with blondish hair. Adam may have short beard. Can’t tell about LE’s face… they’re both above 5’10”
MJ is also between 5’10” – 6’0”. The same goes with DrL.
Nisor says
Snow, I’m 5’2, thin, and sexy shape, short gray hair as you pictured me before. They call me here , where I live, the “exotic lady”.
Serial Limerent says
(What’s this? I posted a comment but it never showed up! Trying again….)
You guys in your 40s talking about being old–you’re making me feel even older! Stop it! 😉
“although I don’t pronounce limerence that way, it’s quite possible I could,because I write/read more in English than I speak and am surprised by the pronunciation of some words I knew only in writing when I watch something in English…”
Heck, I have the same thing happen and I’m a native speaker! Oftentimes I’ll switch the pronunciation in my head back to what I thought it was, just so I understand what they’re saying. 🙂
@LIS: I got the reference! Do I get a cookie?
Marcia says
Snow,
“Marcia told me she’s 5’4”, but I still “see” her as 5’2”, black hair in her late 20s.”
Late 20s? No. I am plunk in middle age. People say I seem younger. I’m immature. 🙂
Bewitched,
” middle height, dark haired, strong body (muscular?)”
Yes, medium height. Dyed dark hair. Not a muscle in my body. 🙂
Imho says
Re-posting my original message here in the right place as I originally posted in the wrong place ! Sorry – it’s been a long day!
Loving this fun interaction conversation !
I visualise many of you!
@Bewitched, I love your summary profile guesses of everyone. you had me mostly correct, except the blond. I do wonder if you live most nearby to me or even work at my same organisation ! Unlikely but you never know.
@Mila. ‘Your’ voice is on android /Google, and not apple ( I checked as I have an iPad too)
Your voice is ‘English UK’ on android/google.
On Apple you can still switch on read aloud or text to speech.
If you go to Settings, Accessibility, Spoken Content, Voices and you can choose your preferred voice there.
Once you have it set, you can highlight text and then choose ‘speak’ and then the text turns to audio. It’s cool !
Snowpheonix says
Sammy Bro,
“Rest assured I don’t feel angry at anyone. “
Remains to be seen…❓ But will take your words for now.
“Snowphoenix is capable of pushing my emotional buttons very slightly, in the exact same way my younger sister pushed my emotional buttons when we were both children. “
It quite flattery that a red bird was able to push “emotional buttons” of an invisible 🐉, which in return has toughened fast her fragile wings 🪽 Now she gets more cheeky in reality after being tossed and refined in the fire 🔥out of a Western🐲mouth…
She’s also flattered to be “promoted/progressed” from a “mommy” image to a “younger sister” silhouette, regaining youth of a whole generation within a month… not doing bad, not bad at all… 😇
“But such pushing doesn’t provoke anger – only a bit of feigned exasperation. (Oh God. Not you-know-who at the door again. What does she want now?) 🙄😜”
“Only a bit of feigned exasperation”, Really? 🙄
Knock, knock! “Who is there❓”
🚪— 🦜💥
Mila says
Imho,
so that means that I cannot hear this voice of mine on an iPad? Pity!
I just tried out the read aloud function, the voices all have names! I chose Kate from England UK, but she read everything in triple speed although the setting is on normal speed, I don’t know why..Serena does it too.
Imho says
Hi Mila, that is strange. On my iPad I have Stephanie and she talks at normal speed. None of the voices on apple are as nice as the one I have on my android/Google. If you have a friend with an android you can maybe ask them to do the ‘read aloud’ for you. Ask LO on Tuesday 😂
@bewitched. I think of you with delicate features and medium long shiny straight brown hair. Maybe the witch in your name is influencing that!
@Snow sibling of Sammy, ‘petite’ is a nice word you can use for those ladies less tall of leg. also ‘Pocket Venus’
Mila says
Imho,
I found the setting and now Kate speaks in normal speed, but I don’t like her. They all sound a bit unkind, don’t they?
LO does actually have an android phone! How do I explain that I want to listen to this voice?:)
Mila says
Also, Imho ,
I think we established already that Bewitched’s and your LO are the same man who is an avid water sports guy, so it makes sense that you are working for the same organization. Only that Bewitched is in the same country as him.
Snowpheonix says
Imho,
“Pocket Venus” sounds really nice to me! ✨
Words really have magic power, so dangerous, though…. 😊
Snowpheonix says
Sammy Bro,
I’ve watched every single episode of “Downton Abbey” and loved Maggie Smith’s performance!
I also watched a bit of “keeping up appearance”, but never had patience and time to finish it all. I just thought the idea of”keeping up” with anything is ridiculous…. Mrs. Nugent is funny, though…
Bewitched says
Hi Imho and Mika,
“I think we established already that Bewitched’s and your LO are the same man who is an avid water sports guy, so it makes sense that you are working for the same organization. Only that Bewitched is in the same country as him.”
Brilliantly observed🤫🤫! Dont let the cat out of the bag, though. I am chasing him down while Imho isnt here, ha ha!!
In all fairness, apart from the water sports, I think our LOs sound very different. If I put mine beside Imho’s, I suspect that she would be laughing her head off. I have always had strange taste in men and go for the helpless ones. My SO is the exception, he is very nice 🫠
Mila says
Bewitched,
Don’t talk of cats in bags, it reminds me that I should stuff the da*n cat back into the bag and haven’t managed so far (I think it was Imho who started talking about cats).
Well, while my last LO was/is very attractive and an absolute magnet for females of all ages (as is my SO, but he‘s much less flirty) my current one is also not very obviously attractive. Which makes it easy to claim to people who get curious about our friendship that he‘s not my type at all and no danger of anything more than friendship.
Actually I believed it myself for the last years until limerence struck.
I would never laugh about anyone‘s LO anyway and I‘m sure Imho wouldn’t, too!
My LO is also sometimes helpless, which can only be attractive because he‘s so competent in other areas. Pure Helplessness doesn’t attract me, I‘m afraid.
Imho says
Hi Bewitched, Mila,
Indeed I would never laugh at others LO choices at all.
(Maybe choice is not the right word, as we don’t consciously choose our LO )
and i like to embrace difference , I identify with it.
My LO is maybe a bit more typically attractive as a man but sweet too, I won’t go on about how gorgeous he is ! Im still trying to carefully investigate how other ladies perceive him. I wonder if lots of women crush on him. Not sure why this matters to me.
Bewitched, did you read my description of you and Adam thinks you of you as the actress who played Bewitched in the TV series, Elizabeth Montgomery?
Mila, yes that d@mned cat is still out that bag, still causing mischief ! Funny bewitched mentioned the same phrase. Maybe time to go shopping and get a bigger bag. 😻
Mila says
Imho,
you mean maybe my bag is not big and beautiful enough to attract the cat! Good idea.
It’s all the bag’s fault, Shopping has to be on the agenda.
My LO doesn’t text although he wrote this morning that he’ll be in touch later instead of answering to my text, and unfortunately I do mind. I’m not as crazily anxious or angry as I used to be, but I would still prefer not to mind at all.
Cat just wandering around the bag, sniffing haughtily.
Bewitched says
@Imho & Mila,
I think that your description was very flattering and maybe half right. Adam was also half right regarding Elizabeth Montgomery, the Bewitched star, her nose…..quite similar 😅.
I think its interesting that you wonder about other women having crushes on your LO. Injust assume that no one but me has a crush on my LO. Though I do think that he is a serial offender in having crushes himself. Its just a hunch since I have known him he has only seened to have eyes for me, but before me. He never does anything wrong, i might add. Apart from the eyes. They give the game away.
Mila, I do hope that your anxiety stays manageable. What a curse this is. How does Imho stay so up-beat? I need to go watch a comedy or something as I am feeling so roughed up. – Why Universe, why?! With a lovely SO here beside me too, in the immortal words of Limerent Emeritus, “You couldn’t make this up”.
PS It would be great if myself and Imho were indeed at the same workplace. We could go for coffee and confide in each other. Having a conversation with someone about this massive secret in real life might burst the bubble 🤔
Imho says
Hi Bewitched,
I visualised us having coffee together in my fave spot at our work cafe, with nice view. It sure would be good to confide in each other.
Sorry you are struggling. I’m very up and down. I’m on an up as had recent LO contacts that were almost normal.
I think when I’m around other people, like here or f2f I do try to put on upbeat façade and go into help mode, or try to make them smile or laugh. I prefer to do that than address my own issues or shortcomings. I was reading latest on winter coffeehouse, and think I’m an avoidant ! Oh goodness , the ‘ issues list’ is getting longer.
Enjoy rest of the weekend. Try not to be too hard on yourself
Mila says
Imho and Bewitched,
how I would love to sit with you in some nice spot having coffee and finally being able to talk to someone about it.
I don’t think I am avoidant, I’m far too anxious to please, but I certainly do have strange behavior patterns, like craving to see LO and when I see him not being able to relax or avoiding any too emotional contact, and then afterwards regretting not to have been nicer etcetc.
I think behind all these labels „avoidant“ etc is some normal human behavior that is in the core not necessarily bad , it just gets out of control here and there.
You two seem to me fairly self-observant intelligent persons, Imho, when you write to Bewitched not to be too hard on herself, please heed your own advice!
Mila says
Bewitched,
can I ask, how your LO shows that he has only eyes for you and is devoted to you, when you only have contact through work? It’s just an idle question, not a probing “are you really sure” question, I don’t doubt for a second that you perceive it right, I just wonder how one manages to convey that during strictly work related meetings.
I tend to be wildly jealous if I suspect my LO (generally spoken about all LOs of mine)to have eyes for anybody else, which is absurd because in two cases out of three they had spouses. I was also in some way jealous of the spouses, but nothing compared to when I thought they flirted with someone else. Really stupid and painful.
Today I’m on one side very occupied by thoughts about limerence (as you might notice by my many posts pestering this site), on the other I’m today of the opinion that it’s a curse and a waste of precious energy, and I’m sick of it.
I wish everybody to have a nice Sunday with simple enjoyments and very little limerent thoughts- just enjoy the nice weather (here at least) and a cup of tea…
Bewitched says
Hey Mila,
You asked how I know that my LO only has eyes for me? Well, we meet f2f very rarely, for work. There are always lots of other people present, including young and attractive females. I am older. So I do wonder if this might lead him to shower others with attention rather than me. But it never happens like that. The normal trajectory is that I try to maintain a calm exterior (in more recent times I am a bit fed up with him) while he loses it somewhat. I mean, jumpy, clumsy, staring, tongue tied, hyper-alert, listening carefully to anything I say… in latter times he seems like he is trying to stay away from me but also not quite managing that. We have been in a very crowded room with inches between us and no words passed as we loked at one another for a full half an hour. But we are not in an EA. We do not discuss ourselves or our SOs. We keep is all work based. We do not contact one another outside of work. Its like an unspoken contract. Mutual respect seems to depend on that.
All of this unmistakable energy emanating off him is like rocket fuel for my limerence. I should try to ignore him, but I swear, it is impossible.
Hope your Sunday is going well. I am having a cup of tea and trying to be stoic. Its tough, isnt it? Being fair on them and fair on ourselves. Also not letting the anxiety get out of control. And trying not to overthink everything….
Mila says
Bewitched,
well, that does sound intense. How do you manage to do that for two years? He never gave a hint of trying for out-of-work contact?
Not that he should or you should.
It’s futile, of course, or would just lead to trouble. Might lead to disappointment and end of limerence, too, but wouldn’t take that risk.
Most probably these intense moments of eye-contact and mutual attraction are the best you will get out of any further contact with him- these moments are anyway the best in any love story, aren’t they? Later come all the trouble and problems and vexation…
I‘m far too dependent on my LO‘s behavior. Now that he seems to pull back (hasn’t written since he wrote yesterday morning that he‘ll write later that day) I‘m on one side ruminating why he doesn’t text (does it matter? no!) on the other side more able to take a step back again and be sensible about everything.
Like remembering that I should really let him go and with him all expectations how he should behave or not.
I get the feeling that I‘m rambling here.
Better stop that now..
Enjoy your tea!❤️
Imho says
Bewitched,
I’m all over your eyes story.
This is very similar to my f2f experiences and the eyes was a key trigger of the glimmer for me, no doubt. However, 30 minutes locked eyes is a very long time and I wonder if other people notice. It’s very intense and let’s be honest, exciting.
For our infrequent encounters, his eyes are looking for me in the crowd and mine are looking for him. And when we meet we are like teenagers.
The first time my LO lightly touched me with eye contact at the same time was like electricity. I didn’t pull away.
So you are showing lots of restraint and as you don’t try to push that boundary, but the eyes are so very powerful.
Leaves a lot for your imagination to work on and maybe for him too.
At least you get to know him in work context so that he is not mystery pedestal man, and you see his good and bad elements too.
Mila, thanks for your message.
of course you are invited too, although a coffee break at the work cafe won’t be good enough. It needs to be a very long ladies lunch out, minimum.
I sense the high anxiety from you today. Maybe tell yourself he will text you tomorrow not today and message another friend on something fun.
I’m off to make a strong cup of tea.
Mila says
Imho,
Yes, I‘m highly anxious, but not only because of him, I‘m having an anxious day generally.
I don’t know if I want him to text tomorrow- I mean of course I’m waiting for him to text!, but at the same time somewhere inside I don’t want him to text, if that makes sense.
For me to not answer my texts or not write after I announced to write would mean a conscious avoidance of writing, and I would have a reason like being pissed off by something or being driven by something to reduce contact.
When he texts now or tomorrow I won’t be sure if he just forgot or didn’t care to write, or if he had a reason and did it on purpose.
I would like to know if I’m under an illusion here and he takes everything much less serious than me, or if there’s a reason he behaves out of his usual pattern.
But my brain actually knows that it’s all really stupid and doesn’t matter.
No idea why I’m so anxious today. Maybe it’s hormones, and too little to occupy my mind.
Had already two strong cups…
Long lady lunch sounds good to me, followed by a walk and coffee?
You in, Bewitched?
Bewitched says
Hi Mila,
I am so in.
I am having an anxious day too. Nature abhors a vacuum and Sundays are just too quiet….
There are a few other large skeletons that I would love to share with you but its too public on this forum. … I do wonder whether this secrecy just feeds this LE and what I need to do is confide in a friend or in one of my sisters.
Either that or go for couples therapy – maybe with my LO, to figure out how to stop triggering one another, ha ha. (My SO and I dont need therapy, I swear!). I am literally considering therapy, but am terrified of meeting the wrong therapist. Its happened to me once, decades ago, and I still have nightmares about it.
😨
Mila says
Hi Bewitched,
not sure what time zone you are in, but it’ll soon getting dark here on Anxious Sunday , so not that much longer to endure!
I’ve never been to therapy exactly because I fear that there are a lot of “wrong”ones about, I knew two or three therapists in other contexts (ex-neighbors etc) and they all struck me as a bit warped themselves and -forgive the arrogance- no match for me.
I would be tempted to tell them all sorts of bullshit or colour my stories in the way I’d feel they expect me to (I’m such a people pleaser).
I don’t trust in people just because they chose a profession.
I’m as arrogant as to think that I know myself best and should be able to sort myself.
I know, I know.
I also have got things that I haven’t told anyone about. They are way in the past and I don’t know if it would help talking about them, but maybe there I’m wrong and they might be the key to solving some problems in the present. But I wouldn’t know whom to talk to about it. Therapy after all?
No, I distract myself with ruminating about why he doesn’t text..🙄
Now I think it’s really a bit rude. Or I’ve done something to annoy him without realizing it.
I get these urges to ask what’s going on, but it’s probably best not to do anything and try not to think about it. I’ll see him anyway on Tuesday, I guess, but now I’m much inclined to force it the other way, I mean to convince my SO that he should join us. I’m just so fed up with all the anxiety. After that meeting LO will leave country for a while, and maybe it would be good to not have contact for that time. A break from all this mess. And after that I guess that it would really be time that he decides if he leaves or stays.
So, anyway not much longer… god, I’m really anxious today..
Adam says
“Nina, ok. What did she look like?”
Mila, I missed this.
She was a bit younger than me, but very boisterous. She had blonde hair, or maybe light brown. I’m a bit color blind. She was rather short, probably only an inch or two over five feet. Her laugh was infectious and when I invited her and other co-workers over for a party in my apartment she was a blast. Laughing and dancing the more she drank. 🙂 Hence the title “Dancing Queen”. She was a very fun person to be around. And I guess because at first you seem so lighthearted and fancy free I associated her with you not just in similar names.
“(Adam in his waistcoat and hat ! )”
IMHO
You know why I wear my waistcoats so much besides for fashion? *whispers* It hides my dad bod. *whispers*
“@Adam – tall, fair, beard”
Bewitched
That’s actually pretty accurate. I have what they call in the south a “farmers tan” and hence why I don’t wear shorts outside of the house. So fair on some parts of my body. I am 6′ and I have a very thin beard. I sometimes just wear it as a goatee. But I’ve kept it as a beard for awhile now.
Mila says
Adam,
blonde, boisterous and fancy-free! 🤩It‘s fun imagining myself like that!
But it’s not really me. Although I do appreciate a party and can stay quite long, I’m certainly not life and soul of it. I‘m an introvert.
I can be lighthearted and a laugh, but I‘m a rather calm and quiet person on the outside.
But short, yes, that I am:)
Snowpheonix says
DrL,
While I’ve been thinking about your coming book and what nuggets I’ve taken from LwL, I’d like briefly to second Sammy points here —
“I don’t like seeing the suffering inherent in limerence downplayed, because I think such downplaying is dishonest and gives the general public the wrong impression, like limerents are a bunch of carefree hedonists or something. If you’re not suffering, you’re not limerent”. (@Sammy)
“This is how I see it: limerence is a seesaw. One pays for one’s euphoria with despair. Despair and euphoria are two sides of the same coin. No despair/suffering = no euphoria/intense pleasure. After limerence, one stops experiencing rapture/misery in a really heavy involuntary way, although one might continue to cherish art, music, literature, etc, etc.” (@sammy)
For my limerence high, the first movement of Berlioz’s “Symphonie Fantastique” expresses vividly (lifting my biologically urged ballet-tiptoes); for my limerence’s low, Dimash’s “Love is not over yet” captures it heavily (making me in rare tears, despite a new Glimmer hanging nearby).
https://youtu.be/5HgqPpjIH5c?si=cUgsqUK-CyZiwuQV — Berlioz’s “Symphonie Fantastique”
https://youtu.be/5LUGN4B23go?si=QPr13ahZMPQHCMWt – Dimash’s “Love is not over yet”
Snowpheonix says
“I have two specific questions:
1. What’s the most useful nugget of wisdom you’ve discovered on LwL?
2. What would you most like to learn about in the book?” (@DrL)
I really like Jaideux’s list, which has inspired some of my inquires from it. So I’ll put DrL’s two inquires together in my attempts to sort out my thoughts.
1. “There are dodgy LOs out there who collect limerents for sport.”
No matter what we do, think, or feel, we can’t change those LOs’ nature and their “sports”. The only thing limerents can do is to recognize what LO she or he is dealing with and firmly walk away from those Narcs.
2. “The ‘waxing hot and cold’ behavior of LOs is rocket fuel for the condition.”
How do we distinguish those “waxing hot and cold behavior” to be realistic or merely PERCEIVED by limerents’ altered state of mind? I have caught my own imaginary, mistaken perceived LO behaviors.
3. “Limerence is an addiction. “
Not right after Glimmer and before unstoppable rumination and reverie arrive.
4. “Limerence dies when not fed. Freedom is possible and within grasp.”
Some mind cannot stop its imaginery nature, how such a mind could stop limerence while not damaging their other types of creative and productive imaginations?
5. Those of us with a predisposition to limerence will experience it repeatedly until we know how to identify the glimmer and put up shields.“
If we clearly recognize/know our predisposition (e.g. cptsd, OCD, ADHD, Autism, etc, etc, etc), wouldn’t such a consciousness make limerents more aware of limerence’s lurking and prepare for its strike?
If single, why should she or he put up shields against that #bn dollar Glimmer, that would bring a flood of creativity, mental and physical energy ⁉️If the lows — the other side of the same coin, are certain to follow, then can’t one’s mind prepare and expect their arrival? Once expected, what could be worse?
Also in those scenario, shouldn’t one pay more attention and efforts in treating/curing their predisposition or existing mental dis-eases, instead of running away from that rare Glimmer?
6. “Limerents are somewhat unique and have inner depth and complexity.”
Just like any other “types” of people.
7. “Turning a LO into a platonic friend is almost impossible. (If we’re honest).
“It’s ALMOST, but still a tiny bit possible. When limerence is Truly gone, it IS possible. But it might not be a close friendship as limerents have hoped. (I speak only for my own LE#5, with 7-8 out of 10 glimmer but it was never emotionally unreciprocated. Now it’s an emotionally distanced but sincerely caring friendship.)
8. “Happiness of a more meaningful kind is possible post LE.”
That depends on how one defines “happiness” and “meaningful”, which could sharply varies from one individual to another. If one feels only lukewarm content during a post LE, what could one do to create genuine, meaningful joys out of one’s existence?
9. Limerence is not necessarily love.
Limerence is primarily Eros-love based (the most powerful), without involving other 6 aspects of Love — philia, erotopia or ludus, storge, philautia, pragma, and agápe. Talking about love, I think one needs to distinguish the differences among 7 types. Everyone is born with the capacity of experiencing all 7 types, now limerence seems to require limerents to kill that most blind yet precious Eros, that drives “a host, of golden daffodils; beside the lake, beneath the trees, fluttering and dancing in the breeze.”⁉️
10. We deserve more than a limerent fantasy!
The word “deserve” intrigues and puzzles me. What do we, as an ordinary human being, innately “deserve” in the world (w/o efforts)? I thought I at least deserve a biological parental love, did I get it? (as well as some other children.). Is anything that is innately deserved or undeserved in “Limerent fantasy”?
I know (lived with experiences) about what inexpressible sufferings limerent fantasy could bring to one; but if limerents could compartmentalize fantasies from logical thinkings and realistically function alright/okay, would it be still necessary to eliminate “controllable” limerence fantasies?
DrL: Would an insightful, controllable, mild limerence ever exist? Could you address such a possibility in your new book, so “unknown” limerents out of there could have some sensess what they are facing?
Speedwagon says
Been a while since I posted an update and I have gained clarity on a few things over the last few weeks. First off, I am still practicing some fairly strict LC (I like to call it ‘disengagement’) with LO to where I only interact with her on work matters. A number of weeks back she started warming up to me some, initiating some personal talk, sending a couple unsolicited personal texts off work hours. It’s all still within the ‘friendship’ paradigm but it still gets me thinking and hoping when she does this. So as you can imagine it was easy to give in and start reciprocating back. Once I start reciprocating, I am much more social than LO so the balance of initiation starts to tilt 90-10 towards me to her. This frustrates me because I am an anxious attachment and need people to put effort back towards me and she just never really does. She is a willing and happy participant if I initiate though so it’s easy for me to keep it up.
What I discovered is that though ramping up personal interaction with LO can still keep me emotionally stable, it ramps up my unwanted intrusive thoughts also. I start to fixate on every interaction and how it was and when the next one might be, and how much do I initiate or not. It’s maddening. I find I lose focus on other people and things that I had been investing in only to be replaced by thoughts of pursuing LO.
So after a couple weeks of this I took a step back and decided that trying to be any kind of friend to LO, even on a casual level, just does not work for me. It’s not healthy to my mind and I would rather feel the emotional grief of not having any personal relationship with LO than the thought madness of maintaining one.
It’s been 2 weeks now of basic, dull, work interactions only with very minimal pleasantries at best. I feel like she notices this, her demeanor is a bit different when I don’t engage her like she is used to, but I’m just not sure she really cares. I just need to get multiple weeks of this under my belt so it feels more like the new normal. Overall, I am comfortable with this strategy and I can feel my thoughts clearing up more and more. I just need to not let missing her, which is a very powerful emotion at times, derail it or her initiating with me, if she does, suck me back in.
Imho says
Hi wagon of speed!
Thanks for the update. This sounds like a good strategy and I like the application of new terminology such as disengagement, new normal etc.
I do think switching or changing words does help shift the narrative in the brain. I have words that I am trying to replace with more neutral words/ phrases.
Triggers from LO, even small ones can be so challenging can’t they ! Out of the blue my LO asked for my advice on something very insignificant.
I like it when anyone I’m fond of asks for my advice, as it makes me feel good inside, but coming from LO its like pow !
Wishing the strategy goes well. 💪
Mila says
Sounds like he just wanted to have a bit of contact.
Could you both, Imho and Speedwagon, maybe settle down with the knowledge that your LOs like you, even find you are attractive, and enjoy your company, but are not limerent for you in an obsessive way , simply because they are not the limerent type?
Which means, there will never happen more than pleasant contact and even a bit flirty stuff if they feel playful (because they have no idea what’s going on inside you), but they still appreciate you and that’s it- no reason to be angry at them, and a good reason to end uncertainty by thinking „they definitely like me and think I’m attractive, so I won, kind of, but that’s it- they don’t want more than that and I’ll gain nothing by obsessing“?
I know, I know, we limerents cannot tell that to ourselves and simply stop , but still it’s good to look truth in the eye, and maybe some day it finally hits home?
Mila says
I hope I didn’t come across patronizing here.
It’s just that this or a similar approach seems to work well for me at the moment, but maybe it’s only a calm phase after all the turmoil.
frederico says
Mila
I’m elbowing my way in here. That all sounds plausible, and delightful, maybe for a mild crush.
I am also trying to remember what it must be like for a limerent when No Contact is impossible.
In my world, which now seems to be a more polarised world, it seems like a fluffy compromise. Does that work? I guess that depends on how deep the limerence is and if we are really talking about limerence.
Mila says
Frederico,
please elbow in whenever you want, happy to hear from you!
One has to keep in mind that my LE is a bit different in that LO is an old friend of mine of whom I know for certain that he likes me very much and will stay loyally my friend almost no matter what. Also, I know him very well and am sure that he is definitely attracted to me, but would never act on it. That gives me a kind of certainty and knowledge that other limerents cannot have.
So I‘m actually not the one who should dole out advice like I did.
I just feel calm at the moment in the knowledge that yes, I love him very much in a way, beyond limerence, and yes, he loves me in the way he can, as much as his type of person allows it, and that’s it. The craving for more seems to have subsided for the moment, paradoxically since I saw when we said goodbye the last time, that he really cares for me.
So it can be that I‘m deluding myself again, that my limerent needs are just satisfied by this goodbye for a while, and then it‘ll all start again, who knows.
In your case it’s more difficult. I read a bit of your posts, and I have to say, your LO sounds a bit confused. I don’t want to be as harsh as Adam and say that he tested the waters and used you for that.
I guess he just got scared of his own affection for you, which was a mixture of genuinely liking you much, maybe feeling flattered by your attention , maybe with an underlying physical attraction involved, and the latter confused him so that he had to pull back and lose contact. Not that he would have seen it so clearly why he did it, he just felt awkward and didn’t want that any more.
You sound like a loyal person to me,like my LO is, and this must have hurt like hell.
But it’s very possible that he cannot escape himself here and have a normal friendship with you.
It’s possible that he can, but it has to be an effort from both sides, not breadcrumbs from his side and loyalty from yours.
But again, I‘m not really equipped to throw theories around and give advice …
I just don’t want you to hurt anymore. If your state of mind requires working through it to leave it behind, or just throw all away in one big throw and shut the door, I cannot say.
Mila says
Sorry! you didn’t ask for my opinion in your case, you asked me if what I wrote wasn’t a fluffy compromise;)
Well, no. I think it‘s what might only possible if one isn’t limerent anymore- as you wrote, maybe it’s not really limerence any more, if one is capable of this state of mind.
Still, it wouldn’t be a fluffy compromise, it would be simply accepting the truth (given that it IS the truth, of course- I just had the feeling that Speedwagons and Imhos LOs do like them a lot, but are not limerent)
Speedwagon says
I thought about that before, could I just enjoy the warm interactions and have my mind think she has feelings for me. I’ve tried that and it doesn’t work. It’s really just another version of can I be friends with LO. I can’t. My mind won’t settle like that and anything LO does that doesn’t seem like attraction, which she does plenty of, just causes me distress. Plus my LO is quite aloof and a bit relationally awkward so it’s actually tough to be friends with her and feel it’s reciprocal.
Through a lot of relational trial and error it’s better I just disengage from her. I would be NC if I could.
frederico says
Wow, Mila, I understand your situation now and what you say makes perfect sense.
Thank you for taking the trouble to comment on my LE. I wish that my recall was as good as yours. What you said felt stunningly accurate and it is a good summary. It really helps me to move on.
Mila says
Speedwagon,
You know your situation much better than me and you sound very clearsighted and determined!
Frederico,
I don’t deserve the praise, you just told your story very lucidly and I simply repeated it back and guessed at some stuff , but my guesses could be wrong.
I wish you both that you get rid of all that hassle, you both sound so intelligent, clearsighted and self-aware that I’m almost sure your LOs cannot match that and you‘d be better off without them.
(again throwing theories about)
Imho says
Hi Mila, Speedy, Frederico,
Loving the interactions.
I would say that Mila’s summary of LO liking and being attracted to me without limerence probably does apply for me ( very astute Mila, and not at all patronising) I think mine and Speedwagons situations are different though as he outlined above. I have a long distant and open LO and a real chance of friendship if I can tame the limerence. I don’t see him everyday nor am I in his team or his manager , thankfully. That’s why I’m always very compassionate and admiring of speedwagons
handling of his day to day challenging situation which I think may be one of the toughest here on LwL.
I will be making endeavours to achieve the goal you have laid down. For me I hope it can be possible. Full NC is a last resort for me.
@Frederico, I agree a bit with Mila that your LO probably genuinely found a real connection with you but didn’t know maybe what was going on or how to handle it within social norms, his SO, his commitments etc
Be kind to yourself and I would say to try to divert to make connections with other people, old friends and new people you just haven’t met yet. new encounters, new experiences…..Im sure I would enjoy an encounter with you in real life.
Mila says
Hi Imho,
you are right, Speedwagon’s situation is different and way harder.
But he sounds as if he‘s got control, which I admire.
Our situation might be a bit similar soon, if LO decides to leave, I won’t see him much but definitely keep contact and friendship.
At the moment , as I said, I‘m quite calm. We text a lot as usual, but I don’t wait, expect and ruminate, it’s just nice to get texts and if they don’t come, I don’t feel anxious. I do realize that there two main reasons for that,
1. I‘m still feeding off the warm feeling from last encounter, knowing for sure that he cares, I don’t have to doubt and ruminate about that.
But the thing is, I knew before it that he cares. Why it hit home this time and quieted the cravings, I don’t know.
2. I had lots of distraction, social contacts, new town, validation through work this week.
And now I have another problem to solve concerning the Easter holidays, so that occupies my mind now.
That proves that I use LO as mood regulator, distraction from unpleasant things, but also something to occupy my idle mind. As opposed to it being a fateful soulmate-scenario.
Or maybe time just does her thing and LE starts to run its course and fade?
Anyway, time will tell!
Has this reward-trip where you cannot go already taken place?
Bet it was only half the fun without you being there.
Imho says
Hi Mila, great to read how you got this ‘ironed out’ in your mind and you seem very calm and in control. I do think an event, meeting new people or any break in routine helps to reflect on yourself and relationships etc. and you’ve had quite a bit of that recently. It’s good to write it down as you have done to reflect back, as the warm feeling and certainties you now have waiver as the memory fades, and you don’t want to be doubting yourself at some point down the road. I know I have been there myself.
I’ve been working away and busy social stuff this weekend so this really helps me.
The reward event isn’t until later this year. Thanks for asking. His friend messaged me to say I would be missed ! That didn’t help.
Well it is what it is. I’m just convincing myself that I will see him early next year. There is no logic to that timeframe at all but it helps give me some certainty and stops the delirious hope for the rest of this year, and soothes the pain of the reality that I may not actually see him in person ever again.
I hope whatever is going on at Easter will work out fine too.
Imho says
….sorry last edit is missing very important word of ‘may’ or ‘could’ or ‘potentially’…you choose. Let’s be positive!!
“the warm feeling and certainties you now have may waiver as the memory fades”
Mila says
Hi Imho,
I cannot imagine you will never see him again, only if you really don’t want to. Maybe it helps to think that you could make it happen any time (I mean, you could book a flight any weekend- purely theoretically of course), he‘s not dead and not on Mars.
Maybe that knowledge might help you to relax and just live day by day?
(Or maybe not- just throwing round theories again 🙈)
I think it’s nice what his friend wrote- imagine no one even noticing that you are not going! Better to be missed, isn’t it?
Could you maybe plan something nice for this time? With your family or without, just something so that you‘ll have a good time, too.
Imho says
Thanks Mila, yes his friend saying they will miss me at the event is very nice, I just meant it didn’t help my stupid limerent emotions. Yes I do need to arrange more interesting exciting things to do actually. LO is very active, always doing something and in a way I aspire to be more like him.
Wishing you a good and serene week !
Allie 1 says
Thanks for the update, I always enjoy your posts Speedwagon. I very much admire your self awareness and self discipline, and I truly wish I possessed similar sensibilities.
As always your description reminds me of my situation but in reverse – your thoughts and described behaviour match up closely with my perception of my LO and how he might perceive me. He tries to keep his distance from me these days but I think he misses me sometimes and is thus warmer and friendlier for a short spell. He then retreats again leaving me bereft and confused. Of course, my limerent lens could be deceiving me by misinterpreting everything he does… but I don’t think so.
I recently tried but failed to move work projects away from LO. I was gone for only a week. It felt so utterly miserable that my failure was a huge relief. But now I am left stuck in the same wearying holding pattern knowing unhappiness accompanies all options.
ABCD says
Hi Speedwagon. My situation really echoes yours. If I am NC, the feelings are dull but stable. However, when there is contact, initiated by her or I, the intrusive thoughts / melancholy go up several notches. Generally, I am uneasy around her, so now I am trying to be more confident in my demeanor, perhaps that will help. Till then, I am using NC to become more resolute. All the best.
Sammy says
At the risk of sounding like the incredibly patronising human being I actually am, I would like to say I am very pleased with everyone’s behaviour in the coffeehouse this week. The conduct/conversation of all members has been friendly, courteous, and cooperative. That’s what I like to see. Kudos, everyone. Well done!! 😜
Snowpheonix says
🙄
🙃
Snowpheonix says
The Coming of Night
Skipwith Cannell
(In the city)
The sun is near set
And the tall buildings
Become teeth
Tearing bloodily at the sky’s throat;
The blank wall by my window
Becomes night sky over the marches
When there is no moon, and no wind,
And little fishes splash in the pools.
I had lit my candle to make a song for you,
But I have forgotten it for I am very tired;
And the candle … a yellow moth …
Flutters, flutters,
Deep in my brain.
My song was about, ‘a foreign lady
Who was beautiful and sad,
Who was forsaken, and who died
A thousand years ago.’
But the cracked cup at my elbow,
With dregs of tea in it,
Fixes my tired thought more surely
Than the song I made for you and forgot …
That I might give you this.
I am tired.
I am so tired
That my soul is a great plain
Made desolate,
And the beating of a million hearts
Is but the whisper of night winds
Blowing across it
Bridgelover says
For sure, the most valuable thing I’ve learned here is that it’s possible to get addicted to thinking about someone, and that’s a hard addiction to break since you can’t separate yourself from the inside of your own mind.
I’m just going to be selfish and put forth that my situation as I’m currently in it is that LO and I are both single (so don’t overfocus on what to do if you’re married, although that has happened to me in the past so I do understand the importance), and it’s been four months since I disclosed and the disclosure DID HELP but it didn’t completely get rid of the limerence like I was hoping it would. I’ve stopped thinking of him romantically, but he’s still like an imaginary friend in my mind. So maybe don’t gloss over that the thoughts don’t always have to be romantic in nature to be intrusive and bothersome.
Thank you, Dr. L! I really liked your other book.
Adam says
Provide, protect and preside is invariably intertwined with the rescue complex. At least for me. I do agree its very much Western/Christian culture. I was taught that. That is a man’s purpose. Maybe it sounds narcissistic or sexist…
I dunno I was out with my brother and sister in law last night along with my sil’s childhood friend that has been recently divorced and there was a man when we were out drinking at a club (god Im too old for clubs) who addressed my sil’s friend in a way I didn’t like and told him so. My bil pulled me aside. Dunno what my problem is. But my sil said when we got back to hotel that she noticed I was very attentive of her friend after that incident. I told her a man doesn’t speak to a woman like that and at my age a life sentence is little of a deterrent. My sil laughed as by the time we got back to the hotel I had a lot to drink and she says “you literally walked her under her own umbrella when it rained.” And I was like yeah thats what a man should do.
Adam says
Miss Snowphoenix , Miss Mila
In the irony of it all, when I told my wife about the incident Saturday night last night when we finally got home for the weekend she told me that her sister’s friend (that she knew as well growing up) had been in an abusive relationship before. (It’s almost like my rescue complex has radar.) But because of that relationship she had taken multiple self defense classes and could have taken that man down faster than I could have at the club. Oh sweet irony.
I asked my wife if she thought that she was offended by my standing up on her behalf. And my wife said if she did she would have no problem telling you. I guess I’m just an outdated man in the women’s new world.
” That function is not the excusive domain of men though is it? – applies both ways within any adult relationship.”
To me it is. But those things; provide, preside and protect apply to my children too. I guess when it comes down to it, I’m just out of touch I guess. But I do agree that both in a relationship should full fill these roles for each other. My wife protects me from myself. She drove everywhere this weekend because I didn’t have any buisness driving. Actually she does all three for me and it keeps me alive longer than I would be left to my own vices.
Mila says
Imho, and whoever followed my tedious limerent-for-friend-story,
I forgot to ask LO about my voice on Android🤨! Just thought of it. (This only for Imho).
Otherwise it was a very nice meeting, we can talk warmly for hours (and did). Resisted thoughts of talking business about us- because what good would it do, as I mentioned to Whoops somewhere else..
But we talked about his decision if he leaves or not etc, although he gets really restless and vexed when he talks about it.
They will be abroad until after Easter, and then he‘ll have to decide in the following weeks.
So, as I said, not that much longer, and I‘ll at least be absolved from this uncertainty!
Just looked at him and noticed 1. that he showed those traits of him that I find a bit annoying, but is blissfully innocent about it, and that’s disarming, 2. that I really like him (nothing new here). He really is a lovely guy, and I‘m also physically attracted, which fills me with melancholy.
I actually am quite sure that he is attracted to me too and limerent in his own way. Just a small example, I suddenly remembered an incident at my party weeks ago, at a late stage when my SO went to bed (party going on afterwards) and I kissed him goodnight- we were standing with LO and he turned away sharply on reflex.
Mini stuff like that happens all the time here and there, and I shouldn’t need any prove that he reciprocates.
And shouldn’t that be enough for my poor limerent brain, the short meaningful glances, the sudden silences? As I said to Imho and Bewitched, isn’t that the most exciting and best part of mutual limerence, and, since anything more would be betrayal on a bigger scale, why not enjoy it and then let it go for good?
Easier said than done, but I don’t crave disclosure and certainty as much as I once did.
A definitely good thing about the meeting today was that I went running afterwards for the first time in weeks- told LO that I haven’t done any sports for a while and he said „ok then, when you go home,you put your running clothes on and go“ and I did.
So at least one healthy outcome!
(Thought of Lovisa- hope she‘s ok!)
Snowpheonix says
Mila,
I’m following your story!
You’re all recharged up! Good for you! 😄 One physical meeting what LO would recharge ten times more than taxing for 10 days without five senses attached! That’s human neurology….
Although thinking last night that I’d stop attending LO’s class so to continue NC, still right now I’m typing this message to you in LO’s class…. Earlier, we were chitchatting in the lounge about our spring break, job searching, etc. while making/heating up our lunch, respectively. I made a fresh Summer Roll of my own fusion (1st time of this kind) for him (made other kinds and shared with him in the past)
It sounds like you’ll be able to keep your good friendship with LO even if he decides to leave your town…
Mila says
Hi Snow,
I‘ll definitely keep the friendship, but it won’t be the same. When you are not part of each others daily life any more, you miss some of the changes in the other‘s life and personality, and there might be a slow drifting apart.
Still, if he stays, the drifting apart might happen out of other reasons, too much exposure to each other is also sometimes grazing on a friendship.
Life is a constant change, I will try to accept it.
I mean, the children will grow up and never with live with me again (probably), that’s also an unavoidable big change, I’ll grow older, health will change… one has to adapt.
Bewitched says
Hey Mila,
Its good to have your update as I had been wondering about you.
I am glad to hear that you feel less anxious. I was also very anxious for 48 hours over the weekend but then, as usual, it seems to pass. Waiting these things out seems to work for me. Also as usual, I did have some dramatic thoughts, while anxious. One thing I realised was that if LO actually made a play for me, I would have a problem on my hands because I do not want to leave my SO for my LO. Maybe all I want is taking what is going on right up to the brink of that. But that’s pretty stark and indicates that I do not really want to be with him. So why stick with this LE? As I already recognised, it’s about validation. So what I really need to to work on my self worth (self esteem is not an issue for me). How does one do that in a meaningful way?
New and absorbing hobbies is the other thing, I suppose. Intimacy with my SO is going well and I think that this aspect is so important, Mila, for any of us who have SOs. Attachment styles and communicating well too, which are things I recognise that my SO does much better than my LO. I am still wondering if therapy, or a course in deprogramming night actually be useful at this stage as I am getting very tired of this.
All best to you xx
Mila says
Bewitched,
„ One thing I realised was that if LO actually made a play for me, I would have a problem on my hands because I do not want to leave my SO for my LO. “
This was also the case for me in all my LEs. It’s healthy indeed to think it all through to the end: what if he stands at your door declaring unending love and expecting you to change your whole life? Uh, no thanks?
So it’s not undying love on your side.
But actually, I accepted this long ago about my limerent bouts- that they are not the real, life changing thing , or better said, that my feelings for SO are above that, but unfortunately it doesn’t change the urgency and pain of it somehow.
„ Intimacy with my SO is going well and I think that this aspect is so important, Mila, for any of us who have SOs. “
Well, that’s a sore point here.
We do have issues in the physical department, and it’s hard to solve them in all the struggle of daily life and health issues (all more on his side than mine).
Still, I don’t think that’s the root of my limerence, it just doesn’t help of course. My SO is still better in all relationship and intimacy aspects than LO, and I simply love him more.
How does one work on self esteem? Not sure. In the beginning of my relationship with SO I had serious issues with my self esteem etc, and I remember that a book helped me very much,it’s called „six pillars of self-esteem“ by Nathaniel Branden. I don’t know if I would still find it helpful, but back then in my twenties it rang a bell with me. But I might have been in a completely different state of mind than you. I particularly remember that the phrase „there’s nobody coming to save you“ (or similar) helped me, for whatever reason.
Imho says
Hi Mila, thanks for the update and seems like the meeting was without your SO. Your true connection and friendship probably is most real and pure in those 121 situations in a neutral place, without others, without alcohol or entertainments.
I’m convinced uncertainty is a key driver of limerence and hopefully you will at least get this in the coming weeks at last after so much procrastination. I am a great procrastinator (so not being negative)
Once again you have to hang on to the reality of this encounter and don’t go back into second guessing on the messaging in coming days. I’m sure he is into you, and I know the same those moments, shining eyes, snatched lingering looks, silences and embarrassed smiles.
Enjoy it for what it is, yes you are so right. My LO almost certainly enjoys those moments but probably doesn’t overthink or push for more. He unusually said something a little on the edge on our last call that he knew would make me blush and crush. yes we should treasure and enjoy the energy of these little connections of attraction. It’s Enough. Don’t push for more.
Good for you going for a run ! He inspired you to go for it. My LO inspires me to be more active too, as you know he is Mr Fit.
I went for a speed walk today and I used my ‘Read Aloud’ function on my phone on my walk to hear all the latest LwL comments in your voice. Luckily no one around to hear the content!
ABCD says
Hello IMHO. I have also thought about this. Both LO and I seem to enjoy our little moments, as you mentioned – stolen glances, shining eyes, looks, embarrassed smiles. Since both have SOs, can it be just left at that level? Still trying to figure this one out. I have tried not thinking about her, and doing all the other purposeful living stuff also, but it is these repeated interactions that always pop up every now and then, leading to some steps back.
Imho says
Hi ABCD, thanks for your message. I totally understand , seems we are experiencing similar interactions. Shame we can’t just be more in the moment, calmly enjoy the energy and joy it brings and then move on and let it go.
I was just thinking in typing to you that it should be like watching a good film. It was very enjoyable, even exciting while I watched the movie but afterwards I don’t constantly think about it or replay it over and over in my mind.
I need to think of encounters in that way.
Best wishes
Limerent nurse says
I went for a jog the other day on my usual sidewalk block, and took a slow-motion tumble at the corner of an intersection.
One of the kind drivers rolled down her window and yelled, “Are you ok?!” I just laughed and gave her a thumbs up.
Now I have two shiny scabs on both my knees, and they hurt as they heal. Humble pie 🥧
That’s my running-story contribution.
Imho says
Hi L. Nurse, poor you. Brave too.
I remember falling on my face on a busy road. I was so embarrassed I was thumbs upping to all the drivers and then hid behind a tree to cry from the pain.
I hope your knees heal very soon. Take care.
ABCD says
Hi Mila. Good to hear from you. I am happy that you went out for a run, great! I have had many of these mini episodes that you have mentioned as well. I am trying to see if I can function okay in this zone. Will update you all on how it goes. Keep running!
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
I‘m actually not sure if one can stay in this zone. It’s something fluctuating, no?
It would be good to enjoy the hints and eye contacts without wanting more and without wanting to repeat them, just letting them pass and letting everything go, and then this phase will pass too without regrets. I don’t know, it sounds as if only advanced Buddhists could manage that😆
I‘m actually quite sore from running, I overdid it a bit for a first time in months (my lung/heart are always much better than my unused muscles/tendons). I forgot an appointment tomorrow morning, so I‘ll postpone the next running to Friday, I guess. Or maybe tomorrow afternoon.
ABCD, I wish you luck , hang in there!
ABCD says
Thank you Mila! Yeah, one needs to ease into running if one has not run for a while. I try and train 3-4 times a week, with rest days in between.
Yes, I agree that its not easy, if not impossible to stay in the “zone”. IMHO mentioned that these interactions could be like a good movie, that you enjoy more in the moment, and kind of not worry too much afterwards. If only, right?
Anyway, for me, the job at hand it to manage these sporadic interactions. I am working on this, and shall report soon.
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
will run tomorrow. I read somewhere that it’s necessary to run a minimum of 3 times per week to make progress, but as I‘ll be glad to get into running again no matter what, two times will do for me as well…
I‘m still not sure if running should really be my sport, but want to give it another try.
I‘m afraid the movie thing is not going to work with me, I‘ve got too many feelings invested, it’s all unfortunately too far removed from a good movie to achieve that…
But letting go, that’s my mantra for these days..
I allow myself to feel and then try to let the feelings go.. but it’s hard because of course there’s a part of me that doesn’t want to let go.
I think in your case the movie thing could work, meaning that you‘ve got the contact, think about it afterwards and then let it go as a closed episode that‘s over, and not repeat it in your head again and again.
Mila says
Hi Imho,
now I‘m really curious again what this voice sounds like🤨
I think all my other friends have got iPhones…
„ It’s Enough. Don’t push for more“
That’s the crux of my LEs: learning to not want more.
He texted me something very warm last evening, basically saying that I am one of the most special persons in his life.
(Now I‘m worried that I didn’t respond adequately. Which is stupid.)
Yes, it’s all enough, really. But I know that there is the danger to want to repeat these moments of warmth and love, to get this „fix“ again. One should just enjoy them and let them pass, not trying to hold on to them.
I‘m being the greatest procrastinator of all, by the way. Sitting here and writing on this site is definitely not what I should be doing at the moment.
So you are doing calls with your LO? Phone or internet? Just curious.
At least my LO isn’t Mr Fit. He‘s in ok shape but not at all sporty.
I plan on going running tomorrow again (telling you to be accountable)…
Mila says
And yes, SO was not there, he didn’t want to because too busy. LO came in for a while to talk though, but I sensed SO wanting to get on with his things so went to a cafe with LO.
Nisor says
Hi Adam, Marcia, Snow:
For parched, inflamed and dry, aging skin, the best remedy is Liquid Vitamin E.
Look up in the internet:
“Vitamin E for skin benefits “
Improves skin hydration, antioxidant protection, prevents skin aging, wound healing, and many many other benefits.
Get the liquid one, and apply to skin, it’s very soothing , like a balsam. It smells , but just use it at home for a few hours and then wash skin with soap. You can repeat as often as you please. It’s great for wounds and red skin soars, if you apply constantly, the soars heal real fast! Also burns are healed fast.
Vitamin E is what hospitals use on burned patients , to make the skin grow fast. ( I read that somewhere long time ago). Most of beauty products you buy contain Vitamin E. Check it out.
I have beautiful skin because I have been using it on dry or very cold seasons; I also take vitamin E capsules internally, 400 I.U. after a meal.
For women, Estée Lauder face cream is excellent for everyday use. Estée Lauder, resilience multi effect is the correct name.
We want all limerents to look young and beautiful!!!
Best wishes to all.
Snowpheonix says
Nisor,
Thank you for the information on Vit. E. I make a facial masks with Vit. E. Oil capsules. Never taken any or used it on the skin yet. We Easterners’s skin usually age better than fair skin tone, but as not good as darker one.
I will try some, since Miss Marcia has made the bottom line of being an attractive, “successful” limerent is to have smooth skins! 🧴😄
Nisor says
Hi Snow dear,
Make it your business to have soft skin , age forgives no one… And we don’t want to look like a prune, ha. The vitamin E in capsules is too thick, better a bottle of liquid one. (Diluted). They sell them at the Health and vitamins stores. We have Holland and Barrett stores here, specially for vitamins.
Time to sleep for me 😴. Have a good day. Hugs
Snowpheonix says
Dear Nisor,
Okay, I’ll make it a business to keep my skin like silk.
I order most stuff from amazon (get sick while going physical shopping), it has 100% pure Vit E oil, is that what you meant? Or 80%? I’m afraid it’s so thick and will stain clothes.
You take an oral form, does a body absorb it?
Have sweet dreams and great rest! 🫂
Nisor says
Hi Snow,
The Vitamin E will stain the clothes, it’s an oil. But I only use it on the face. That’s why I ingest one capsule a day, after a meal , better after a salad or oily meal.
The Estée Lauder face cream is excellent, I have bee using it for years now, since I reached my forty’s . I aged good, it’s the genes! But I sleep well and eat healthy meals. Not too much fried food, oils or carbohydrates. So I keep in good shape for my age, everybody tells me, from the doctors, pharmacist, friends and strangers. At church they call me the “model”, ha. Some people abuse their bodies during their youth, with me it came natural to sleep a lot and eat well. I could sleep 15 hours a day!
I love biology and how the body works, it has to be from the inside, the food and vitamins you take is important. Outside care is only superficial. Health comes from inside.
The book I keep as a consultant is:
“LETS EAT RIGHT TO KEEP FIT”, by Adelle Davis ,
is a very good guide for me. I don’t know if there’s a recent version for it.
Keeping the Limerents healthy and beautiful!
Sending a bear hug.
Nisor says
Snow,
the book is scientific, has to do with all vitamins and nutrients , and studies made on it, ailments and sickness caused by deficiencies ( the benefits of vitamins) etc. and how to correct it.
It has a very good index, so you can find the answers to your questions quickly.
Snowpheonix says
Hi Nisor,
For decades, I simply applied cosmetic Olive oil on my face, no makeup (unless for social occasion, use only organic kind), NO brand name of any beauty products! So my skin is almost spotless — no chemicals ever got on it. For the body, just cheap, rich lotions. I’ve saved thousand $ for travels.
I eat very light food (similar to Japanese kind), mostly prepared/cooked by myself, steamed, stir fry, broiled, baked, no fried anything —maybe once every two years. For the past 4 months, I’ve been on half Keto diet (enticing Carbs make me tired) with a lot of veggies and fruits, and on intermittent fasting (not very strict), which helped me gain more energy.
My only concern is my sleep, either too little (often going to bed from 2-4am) or too much (more than 7 hours at a time); the former makes me hyper for the following 24 hours and the latter depressed at least for the following 48 hours. Then, I often dream too much with vivid details — some experts say it’s good to release stress/anxiety; others say it’s bad because brain/nerves are still in very active states.
So irregular sleeping pattern could make me look tired, affecting skin around eyes. My meditation helps, only lately I could not focus as well as the last Fall, since May is approaching…looking for new work… then glimmer hit… then glimmer is gone, now I am feeling melancholy and tired…
We’ll have a couple days off for the Easter. It’s below 0 C degree here, unseasonably cold!
Have a beautiful day in your hopefully sunny place! Sending you 🫂
Nisor says
Snow,
I only put hydrating cream on my face, no makeup, only lipstick. And cheap Nivea cream on my hands and feet. That’s all my beauty routine.
I’m sorry you’re feeling all these emotions altogether, it’s a pain in the a$$. Specially if you don’t have a good sleeping pattern. I feel lost and cranky if I don’t sleep enough, six to seven hours a day. Do you do the breathing exercises to help
your sleep? Dim the lights early on in the evening to put your cortisol down.
The neurologist Andrew HUBERMAN has a video for “Proper Sleep “, I haven’t seen it but I’ll try to see it soon. I’ll be busy these days. Also : “Mastering stress”, I’d like to listen to them. They are usually too long… but if the tools help it’s worth the time.
I’ll be 👀 looking out for you on may 8th, your last day at your job. Hope you don’t get depressed because it’s a double whammy! Meaning you’re about to start a new life altogether, new job, new LOs maybe… ha. Renewal! Always remember that: Renewal, that’s what it means! New life, welcome new life for you, like spring just started today! I saw the daffodils and hyacinths in bloom, the birds busy making their nests, every thing is blooming , radiant , to welcome spring, after the desolation and darkness of winter… You’ll have a new spring season in your life, renewed, more assertive, more confident in yourself, all good things coming
your way, you’d just have to be adjusting to it. I wish you the best!
Hugs.
Snowpheonix says
Hi Nisor,
Sorry I made myself misunderstood: I don’t have insomnia problems, because my mediation could put me to sleep in 3-10 minutes, even in daytime.
I sometimes sleep very late is because I can concentrate better (after 20-30 mins nap) in journaling and writing/responding here in LwL (particularly those big messages that spin my brain cells) in late evenings. Daytime is distracting with teaching & tutoring, and in early evenings I have to hit piano keys before the neighbors could complain. Once I started writing, my energy would be escalated and I can’t go to sleep without finishing them (rarely leave anything half done)— I have to let some “inspired” thoughts or emotions flow out spontaneously, without losing that momentum; they may and do change next day.
Since my own invented “cocktail” meditation from last July — focused breathing with spontaneous thought/emotion flowing, my sleeping hygiene is better. If I missed a sleep the whole night, I’d make it up all the way to Noon or early afternoon. I’m becoming a female “Proust” 😃
Even before May 8th, my current life is already hectic: setting time for new pupils, job interviews, attending LO’s class (really learning new stuff about historical and current cultures in the West, to compare on my own with the same fields in the East), politely confronting amorous hit from two fathers of my pupils (annoyed 😒 ), dreaming nightmares….
Yes, I want a renewal but do not want another LO, a bf or a long-term partner would be highly appreciated, but that would take time to find/bump into. I’m NOT on any dating apps — the hunting ground for Narcs and degrading place for organic human beings!
It’s exceptionally chilly here this and next week. Your place sounds marvelous making me envious, enjoy!!! ☺️
Sending you 🫂
Serial Limerent says
After 20 years of being a homemaker I’ve been able to get away with only wearing makeup occasionally. I also use Suave lotion every day, usually wash with soap only once a day now (after reading the skincare routines of Diana Gabaldon and Elizabeth Warren). I also started using retinol a year or two ago. I’m 50 and while I see some lines starting to deepen here and there, I’ve seen no actual wrinkles–no crow’s feet, nothing. People keep complimenting my skin; a couple of weeks ago, I was told it looks like an 8-year-old’s. Of course part of it is genetics, but taking care of the skin helps as well. I also lost some weight, and eating better and getting lots of exercise is rejuvenating. That led to the need for a new wardrobe. You can’t stop aging until you die, but can help slow things down a bit. Despite hitting that milestone where women start feeling old, I’ve been feeling younger-looking and healthier and getting lots of compliments. Some things you can’t help, but some things you can.
Nisor says
Serial Limerant hi,
I’m glad you’re taking good care of your skin and doing the beauty routine to stay young and healthy, including your eating habits. It’s wonderful when one has to change wardrobe because of weight loss! I love shopping! Everyone is responsible for their health and looks. We are what we eat… also taking vitamins supplements is good because we don’t eat all the foods that provide all the vitamins we need. Like minerals, vitamin D, A, C , all the proteins, etc.
At age 50 you shouldn’t have wrinkles, unless you’ve been exposing yourself to the sun too much or have had a stressful life. I was lucky because I have high cheekbones, so they pull the skin back. Slept and ate well. I aged well, I’m satisfied. Also I drink a lot of water daily. I’m always thirsty.
I wanted to tell you to be careful with Retinol and its effects on the skin. You may like to check it in the internet , there are other things much better and less harmless than Retinol. Why Elizabeth’s Warrens beauty routine? I see nothing pretty on her, she’s too masculine for me. Why not Jennifer López, ha. She looks awfully young and feminine , bet she has a natural beauty routine. I don’t know. But do you see Madona how fast she has aged? Too much nights out, loosing sleep…it’s her job, night life, I suppose. Well, we have to be happy and grateful with what we have. Just take good care of it and be neat and clean.
Have a great day.
.
Imho says
Hi Mila,
“He texted me something very warm last evening, basically saying that I am one of the most special persons in his life.”
There you go it’s in writing now, to refer back to.
That is very nice message to receive from anyone you also care about.
I think the fact you have long conversations and regular contact means you don’t have that limited time pressure to try to fit everything in.
I have this thing after an LO call that I meant to tell him this or that, and the opportunity is missed. Stupid. But getting calmer.
You have to ease yourself back into the running for sure. Remember to warm up and down. Lovisa will be proud of you !!
Mila says
Imho,
But I know that feeling too. I never know when I might get him on his own ever again, without SOs or colleagues.
Also this time I was getting anxious from time to time, trying to remember what I will want to have said to him when he’s gone (because I had this feeling so often!), but this time I managed to relax because I sort of gave up the craving for disclosing and such, I reminded myself that everything is fine as it is and I shouldn’t try to push anything.
And what happened? I forgot to ask him about my voice on Android😂
Just kidding.
But you have phone calls that are not work related, right? That’s actually nice, he’s a friend really, no?
John says
I am new to this but have read the first book. I would be interested in long term limerence if that is really a thing. I have not been in contact in decades, have never felt that way about someone since, and still think about her to varying degrees. Sometime it’s overwhelming and sometimes just passing thoughts but always there. I have not seen examples of this.
Nisor says
Hi John, welcome to the LwL community.
No contact for decades? How about 49 years of No Contact?
That’s me! I had a bf when young and single; we loved one another very much, had a relationship for three years. I walked away from it, regretfully, mainly lack of communication and ignorance, moved on, married, children, grandchildren, and didn’t think or dreamed of bf/LO in all those years. But, two years ago I had a dream with the bf of youth, and suddenly limerence hit me for the first time and the bf became LO!( My dream story on LwL/dreams, second comment.)
So, after 49 years of not knowing or hearing about bf/LO, it became an urgency, craving, longing, yearning to find bf/Lo, it became an obsession, ( I thought I was going insane) to find his telephone number, I did. But was hesitant to call, waited five grueling months before I got the courage to call. That was two years ago. I did call! What an emotional turmoil! We talked as if time has not passed, he was polite and happy so was I. First question he asked: “did you get married “. We swapped our family stories . At one time he told me: “thank you for the beautiful moments you gave me,”, that killed me, he was getting personal, and I felt sad and weak, could not answer or even say thank you. Got confused and changed the conversation. This was very painful to remember. He’s got an SO, as I expected, he’s been divorced twice and remarried at 63. Some record eh. I can imagine the lovers in between…
I’m not to ask about that. We finished the conversation , he said it was ok to call back. Strange with an SO. All these fueled the limerence to record highs! I was miserable with all ate rumination and hurt. I called again, BUT, this time there was a recording with his wife voice!!! I left a message .It drove me crazy, he must have told her! Are they sharing the telephone? How is that he doesn’t have private phone? More fuel to the fire, the uncertainty if not being able to connect the dots., or ask the question I wanted to. Sigh!
I called a second time and he answered himself. We talked naturally, I know he felt happy I called. At one point he told me: “ you’re not patient, have you waited a little longer, our lives would be different now, it was not meant to be, it was fate or maybe God.” I told him, “ I know you loved me and I loved you too, and we were the envy of everybody, he interrupted angrily and said : “ but you listened to your friends.” I think he felt entitled to reclaim my behavior then. Any way I said it was my fault, but changed the subject because I was getting too depressed and weak knees, a bad painful feeling all over me. After finishing the conversation I said to myself “ I cannot go through this pain again, I will not call again, it’s an awful feeling.” I cried a river, but I have not called in about sixteen months. I’m in NC, but it’s painful and I know it is the only solution. I have an SO and so does he, and we are older people also. It’s ridiculous limerence at this older age. I have come to accept to live with sorrow. It has affected my sweet relaxed way of leaving I had before. I’m trying to make sense of it all and live a purposeful life. Not easy.
Good day to all.
Bewitched says
Dear Nisor,
Your story never fails to impress. Has it really been 16 months of complete NC now for you? That’s a very long time. I think that you have said in other posts that you feel vaguely better but still struggle on some days? It seems like such a long time to still be under the grip of limerence and I find it quite discouraging that I too appear to be taking a long time to recover completely despite maintaining strict LC.
I find it endlessly fascinating that some people can get over limerence in super-quick time, while others take much longer. Your case is an important marker for me, because of the strict NC that you have maintained. I have read the posts that say the time to recovery seems to depend on your own circumstances but that NC is always the answer. Which I believe, by the way. But I am interested about the other variables, the ones intrinsic to everybody’s unique situation. In your case, you actually has a 3-year romantic relationship with your LO, which must be part of the reason you are finding it hard, despite 16 months of complete NC. Other people are friends with their LO and had that bond long before limerence set-in, so I can imagine that prolongs things due to a pre-existing friendship that they do not want to lose. In my case, I am still going strong after years and do not know why it is lasting so long because I think that I have a great SO and no issues there. Bearing in mind that my LO interactions are quite strictly work-based only with no extra stuff to throw me off my LC. So now I am beginning to think that on some level, I must not actually want to recover from this, on some level. In fairness, I do recognise that it served (serves?) as a sort of coping mechanism in my life, so it would be rational on some subconscious level to not want to let go of that.
Anyway Nisor, I am so sorry if you feel that you are still struggling from time to time. You have always been so kind to everyone here, it is so much appreciated.
Nisor says
Hi Bewitched,
Thank you for your post, always so kind and sweet.
I’ll get to you tomorrow. I couldn’t find your post before. Sleeping time, 12:00 night, Cinderella past time to become a 🎃. 💤💤💤
Nisor says
Good morning Bewitched,
Sorry for the late answer but I lost the post , finally I rolled everywhere and found it.
To tell you the truth, it’s very hard to do NC, but I have no other choices. What can come out of it if we keep on talking? I’m not willing to stay in limbo, neither to know that I’m sharing halfway, No, no, no, for me it’s all or nothing. I’m selfish in that respect. Someone I had all
mine, and keeping a conversation alive would be like I’m taking crumbs. My inner self rejects that immensely. Therefore, NC is the answer as hard as it can be. NC doesn’t mean you forget the person, it means you make the DECISION to understand that reality is different than what you fancy in your mind, that this relationship have no future, it’s not valid in any way. Crave and long all you want, it doesn’t work. It’s accepting reality. So NC is always the answer, whether you like or not, it will be forced on you sooner or later. The waning is the hard part, controlling yourself not to give up, putting up with the grief, handling graciously the days that hits you hard, the search for solutions to your pining, then comes a sadness that you can live with. But sometimes the mind gets too occupied by LO, that is the memories of something gone , which you’d like to have again…. One is transported to that time and place of the past, not realizing the years has passed. It’s hard to decouple this thoughts from the Limbic brain and bring it to the Cortex to process it. Sometimes, when I write here, I’m transported to my youth, that is, I’m living on that time past, that age! Limerence is a weird thing… Yes, I’m 16 months in NC, and it seems it was yesterday when I talked to LO!
I see you’re concerned with your limerence talking too long even if in L/C. I don’t think it would be too hard for you to “erase” LO from your mind because there is no intimacy involved, that is, if you ever go NC, either he leaves or you leave the job. As long as you keep interacting or seeing ,sharing occasionally with the LO, either a little or a lot, it’s going to be very difficult to detach., if at all. No question about it, so don’t pound your head over this and try not to keep your hopes high, so it doesn’t bother you as much. You, Mila, Ihmo, ABCD, Speedwagon and others who have to interact daily or occasionally with LOs , will have the flare ups all the time. Can’t avoid them. It must be like going through the sieve, and the thousands deaths you can’t control. I really admire you guys for the strength and courage you have putting up with this ups and downs. Thinking about it, it’s not that you don’t want to let go, it’s because you can’t; you can’t go NC and the interactions limit your chances to being completely successful. So, the mind knows that and takes advantage of that difficulty…
I’m glad you have a great SO, at least it gives some space to work in your marriage and do things together to keep LO out of your mind. Try to find things on SO that you really admire. I do that a lot and it brings me to time, that is reality.
Have a great weekend. Hugs.
Nisor says
Correction: weaning; taking;
take me to present time
Bewitched says
Dear Nisor,
Thank you I am so deeply touched by our advice. Three things you said in particular are so helpful:
“No, no, no, for me it’s all or nothing. I’m selfish in that respect. Someone I had all mine, and keeping a conversation alive would be like I’m taking crumbs.”
I am also egotistical enough to demand all or nothing :D. I have no interest in waiting around for an LO who has other commitments. Also, I already know it would never work and that my SO is far superior to my LO, in every way. So there are two solid reasons to forget all about my LO!
You also said “I don’t think it would be too hard for you to “erase” LO from your mind because there is no intimacy involved”
This is so true. You could say that I barely know the guy. But I would dearly love to become intimate with him (oops!!). That is never going to happen. Definitely not. I would not let it. Its just something primal that I need to quash. Its actually something that Imho and I discussed and both struggled with on Valentine’s Day. I had a very strong sensation of physical desire for my LO. Weird. My crazy middle aged hormones maybe.
The last thing you said which I found very interesting was this:
“Sometimes, when I write here, I’m transported to my youth, that is, I’m living on that time past, that age! Limerence is a weird thing… Yes, I’m 16 months in NC, and it seems it was yesterday when I talked to LO!”
Nisor, I strongly feel that your LE has something to do with recapturing youthful passion and exuberance. Sometimes you speak so wistfully about that time of your life. Can you recreate any of it, somehow? Do something wild? I dunno maybe I am way off base with that and your life sounds really wonderful. But I hate to think of you in pain. I don’t know if there is something you can try to be rid of this association between your youth and your LO maybe? Or whether you can fantastise about something else instead. A beautiful film star or something.
I got to go back to work now. Sending you a warm wish for a beautiful weekend.
Nisor says
Hi Bewitched,
Thanks again for your text. Don’t worry about my pain, that is: my sorrow. Everything is under control most of the time. When rumination starts I go to my bedroom and let the thoughts come and take their course to go away .I don’t cry anymore as before, and he’s not in my head first thing in the morning or last thing before sleep.Sometimes, tbh, it does happen. But it doesn’t hurt as much. I keep myself busy to brush aside thinking of him.
That I’d like to recapture my youth, passion and exuberance? Nay , I have enjoyed every single stage of my life as it is at the time. Each stage of life has its own beauty , recompense, and joy. I cannot complain. But it would be nice to be given a second chance to correct the mistakes made before. I’ve discussed with Sammy (hi!) this absurd feelings and limerence in general. So, mainly it is regrets or reproaching myself for not having the patience and the correct communication then, immaturity. As one reflects on the past, now that limerence has intruded my life, one becomes awfully aware of the mistakes, errors , one has made and wishes to have them corrected in some way; which is impossible.
I’m a realistic person, I don’t like any shadow of gray, that is, I don’t think transferring limerence to a film actor would not be my fancy to get someone off of my head. I’m the radical type, cold turkey, and finished! But if I were to fancy someone on TV, that would be the pianist Francesco Piedimonte ! But he’s too young and I think he’s gay! So, LO, is my fancy and is eight years my elder. Ha!
And yes, I would like to re-live my youth, the decade of my twenties, when I was young and care free!!! Just one more time…. Old age is good too, there’s no cares either, if you don’t get involved in your children’s lives…I don’t. Bewitched, dear, life is a never ending world of surprises, there’s always something happening trying to disturb your life, the thing is to stay cool, calm and composed as much as you can, observe and learn. Nothing is for ever. Not even us.
Have a nice weekend with the family.
Mila says
Just shortly barging in, Nisor, if you mean the pianist Francesco Piemontesi,I met him once by chance, he definitely is gay 😉 and very, very nice.
Nisor says
Hi Mila,
Yes, that’s the pianist I meant. I always get his name wrong. Is he as good looking as he seems to be when playing the piano? Oh, lucky you seeing Francesco in person! He’s from Switzerland, but Italian descent. I love Italians…
Hugs
John says
Thanks for sharing. I’m envious that you could reach out. Unfortunately, this is not an option for me and the circumstances of the last time I saw her were less than ideal. I had known her for about a year, I was stationed in FL. She lived in Houston so I called weekly and visited when I could. It was definitely one sided but her Dad was my biggest cheerleader due to the circumstances of how things got started. I stayed at her house a couple weekends before my first deployment to Iceland. It was one of my best memories, meeting her sister. Her Dad introduced me, this is John, he’s in love with my daughter. It was great. She was very attractive so there was always the fear that she would meet someone. I deployed, sailors don’t make a lot and she told me to call collect. On her birthday I called and she said her dad had gotten a camera for her and when I got back I could come out for a couple weeks. I was elated. A couple weeks later a male voice answered and told me to stop calling. I was crushed. I needed answers but didn’t call again. I did go out unannounced after I returned. Mainly to ask what happened and say goodbye. She got home with him, sent him away, invited me in and told me to ask any questions, we talked for two hours. She asked my plan and I said heading back in the morning. I made one of the biggest mistakes of my life. She said, you’re here why not stay and hangout. I did. We spent some time together on Saturday. Then again on Sunday. However on Sunday there was a ring on her finger to my surprise. She didn’t point this out, he did. Don’t blame him. We drove around, she asked me what I thought of him, telling me my opinion was important to her. Then she played a song for me. Garth Brooks The Dance. Everything she did that weekend made me think I mattered in some way. On her front steps, I said well I guess this is goodbye. The sabotaged me one last time and said it doesn’t need to be you never know what will happen. I still had my friend. She never answered a call again and it was the last time I spoke with her. I’ve never trusted myself since. I’ve fantasized regularly about meeting her. It usually ends with just the start of a conversation. For 32 years it’s been my greatest desire to see her again. I harbor no expectation beyond that, just to know that she cared for me in anyway. But because she ceased the communications it would be meaningless for me to contact her.
Figure it will just drive me mad to varying degrees. It was pretty well controlled until a couple years ago when I was diagnosed and treated for cancer. Up until then I was very good at not keeping in touch with people, quite intentionally. But started re connecting with old Navy buddies and friends I think as a proxy to connecting with her.
This site is the first time I’ve experienced like minded situations.
Nisor says
John, hi
“I harbor no expectations beyond that, just to know that she cared for me in anyway.”
Like you, when I called, after wrenching soul searching, I was not harboring any expectations, I was afraid I would be rejected and that would be a killer for me. I was sure he loved me dearly, for those were his last words to me. But I wanted to know if he still loved me or had any feelings for me. I didn’t ask him that of course, but the way the conversation went, at some points he’d get personal and say like, “I only have good memories of you”, or thank you for reminiscing me in your mind”, to which I didn’t know what to say, got tongue twisted and confused. Those comments were too much for me to handle, all of a sudden I got mute and silent. Then the uncertainty kept on growing and I figured I better stop this suffering. He has never reached out to me either. Perhaps because I told him he cannot call me since SO is always around. Anyway, if he really cared he’d do like I did, get the strength to call, unless his SO wouldn’t allow it? It will show in the telephone bill. So, that’s what keeps telling me he’s over me a long time ago. I’m the limerent, not him, therefore I can’t expect nothing from him…
That said, I don’t know how desperate you’re for contact, but if so, I think calling her would be okay, just casually. Don’t expect positive results, but more uncertainty. If you’re ready to deal with that, go ahead. I gambled , and no force in the world could have stopped me from calling, even if my life depended on it! I don’t regret it. If he had outright rejected me or closed the phone on me, I had thought that as a possibility, I was prepared to take it and leak my wounds… My LO never played games with me, it was a serious relationship. And he told me in our first telephone conversation that he never cheated on me.
But your LO, according to what you described, she played you like a fiddle… I don’t like that. What is that to come out with a ring in her finger, and still ask you for your opinion abt her boyfriend ? Didn’t she know you were interested in her? Couldn’t she read your feelings for her? I don’t understand it. How can she be so cruel and heartless?
Do you feel rejected? Do you think she has changed somehow? Curiosity is eating you up , and I understand, but you still want to take the gamble… well if you’re prepared for the worst why not satisfy that curiosity? What have you got to loose? Maybe, if she rejects you, at least it will give you some closure, I don’t know.
I’m sorry for your cancer diagnosis, I hope it’s somehow curable, or go on remission. I understand why you want to be connected to your navy buddies and friends. Once you’re in the armed forces the connections are very tight, they care for one another. So it’s good you stay close with them.
I wrote you a book! You keep posting and let us know how you’re doing in the coo future. We care for one another here.
Best wishes.
ABCD says
Hi IMHO. Your good movie analogy sounds very interesting, and promising. I will put it to the test, and let you know. For now, I am going through the NC, and bracing for the next contact.
Mila says
Anxious day again, and feel the need to draw a line.
Of course, after the long meeting and this text from LO that was really much more committed than I would have thought him capable of, my thoughts circle around him constantly. Not in a vexing manner (at first), but still.
Now he’s on an intercontinental flight, and somehow my anxiety grew since yesterday evening until the moment of departure (minutes ago).
I had a dream tonight where he left with his kid in tow, I walked with them for a while, said goodbye with a long and tight hug and planned to follow them a bit, but he strode away quite purposefully and I lost them in the crowd- scanned all the people but couldn’t find them any more.
I have a strong feeling of goodbye, as if I should close that chapter now, at least for the duration of his trip.
I even thought that he might have exhausted himself with that meaningful text and might himself need a break now (going away with his family).
But he doesn‘t seem to feel like that as he texted something like „until later“ when his plane moved. He seems to want to continue as it was.
Don’t know if I should follow the instinct and reduce texting or if I should just let that pass and run its course like everything else.
Probably latter. He‘s in a different time zone, there won’t be much texting going on anyway. And reducing means effort, effort means ruminating.
Again, I struggle to keep reality in my head. While meeting, I could see him clearly, and now it all goes vague again and takes on this or that colour, his good sides and his meaning in my life exaggerated etc.
I will dial the thoughts back and try to concentrate on other things and persons.
Not much longer, I keep telling myself.
I actually think it won’t change the outcome if he leaves or stays- anxiety will definitely go down in either case.
ABCD says
Hi Mila. I’m sorry you are feeling anxious. I’ve been feeling anxious since last week as well. I guess when we have a spurt of good contact with LO, the expectations also go up, setting us up for disappointment later. Whereas in case of nc, there may be a dull sort of a longing, but it seems more manageable. One of the reasons my LE is so strong is that I have not got a chance to know LO well, so that has kept the mystery / enigma alive, hard luck for me 😀. I hope you feel better with the passage of time, it will get better, it has with me, till the next interaction at least. Lots of strength to you.
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
I have this deadline going on that he has to decide during the next weeks if he stays here or moved to his new workplace for good, and set high hopes that his decision will end the anxiety and the limerence. Not immediately, but in due time.
If he leaves, it will probably go on until they move house and are gone (summer), if he stays it’s possible that it starts to fade immediately.
Maybe I set to much hope on it.
I see that it must be hard to see LO only sporadically, always seeing her good sides, never getting the full picture, and this indefinitely.
I hope that with each completed circle of nc, feeling ok, contact, being elated, coming down, suffering, nc , feeling ok etc , you‘ll get more tired of the whole mess and something will click and end it, or the curve of up and down will get flatter and flatter until you realize you haven’t thought of her for quite a while and are not that excited when you see her.
ABCD says
Hi Mila. Whether your LO decides to stay or move away, I hope that you feel better and have reduced/no anxiety.
Yeah, this cycle that you mention has been going on for a long time. Right now, I am just going along and trying to brave through it all. Thanks for your support.
Mila says
Needless to say, Marcia, Imho and whoever shares my incline to sweet addiction, that my sugar intake increased significantly in the last days 🙈
I plan to curb this from tomorrow on too..
Adam says
Mila
Not related to limerence but related to sweets. I can usually tell when my wife’s bipolar is kicking her down. I will get a text to “pick up something sweet I don’t care what it is”. And I know she’s down. She self medicates with sweets the way I do with alcohol. Lately she seems to be trying run Little Debbie out of Nutty Bars. I’m like damn girl! Lmao How many of them can you eat? You usually quips back with “as much as you can drink that vodka.” 🙂
Mila says
Hi Adam,
hm, Nutty Bars are with layers of wafer, no? That’s not my thing😆although in times of need, also chocolate with wafer isn’t safe from me.
Now, when I feel the urge to calm myself down, relax, distract, reward etc, after stressful LO business, in the evening I do steal glances at some very nice red wine I got as present, or think about a gin and tonic (still from my party), but I‘m lucky in that my SO almost never drinks alcohol, otherwise I can imagine myself self-medicating with alcohol too. But I won’t start drinking alone, it would feel weird.
I do know I‘m prone to a light sort of addiction to sugar or phone or even books, and I know that that’s a reason not to start with alcohol at all, too dangerous for me.
I do get your wife! Like her very much with her witty retorts.
John says
Hi Nisor,
Reaching out to her is not something I feel is appropriate. She made her choice a long time ago to break contact. While I was devastated years ago and those events changed me. The one upside is that anytime I might have felt could have been what I now know to limerence I pull the brakes hard.
As for her, she never loved me but evidence suggests we were close friends. I can only hope she broke contact because she cared or was pressured to by her SO. While I was deployed she had time to meet him, he cheated on her and they got back together. I am fairly certain he did not think well of me, since I managed to have one of my officers who I reported to hand deliver flowers while he was on leave in Houston, it happened to be the night he came back apologizing to her and her Dad was not pleased and he pointed out that if he was supposed to be mister nice boyfriend, how come she has a sailor half way around the world who never misses the opportunity to let her know he is thinking about her. ( She told me that on the last visit ). I know her SO did not like that.
Regardless, I will care for her and hope she is happy. I am not part of her life and it has been 32 years. I can only fantasize the we meet by chance and she remembers me. I have coped for 32 years and dont thing I can let her memory go. I would love to go back in time and be sitting on the couch watching a movie thought 🙂
Adam says
John
“Regardless, I will care for her and hope she is happy.”
This is how I see it myself. But it hasn’t even been 2 years yet since I last saw her. She let me into her family. I got to know one of her daughters (the other lived with her father). Similar to your LO she had been divorced because her ex cheated on her. How a man could cheat on such an wonderful woman is beyond me.
But before she left the job she started seeing another man. They were together for almost a year before she left. He seemed to care for her and her daughter. Would bring them lunch some days (her daughter sometimes came to work with her because she had no one to watch her daughter. She was 15 at the time.) and snow cones on hot summer days. Whenever she spoke of him you could tell he put a skip in her step. He seemed a good man. And I hope the three of them are happy together. It’s what keep me no contact. She has a new life.
Nisor says
@John
It’s really up to you to call her or not. After 32 years, if nothing serious was going on to bond you both, it’s fruitless to call, I think. Would she remember you? That’s an uncertainty I had , but still I knew for sure that LO had loved me dearly. But I figured that perhaps he had somehow forgotten, you know, time makes things fade away.
It looks like her father liked the idea of you being her boyfriend. What a coincidence with the flowers and her SO making up with her again, bad timing…
Do you have an SO, or this LE ruined your love life? Sorry if I’m getting too personal, you don’t have to answer, I’ll understand.
I very well know what you mean to go back on time to re-live those times again. Precious moments, unforgettable precious moments. I’m a silly romantic person though I sometimes come across as a strict hard person . Do you think you would change anything if you’re given the chance to go back on time? I would, a lot. Most urgently correct the communication, it was very poor. Well, we only live once…so no dreaming or ruminating on that.
Stay strong and healthy.
John says
Oh I’m fairly certain she’s at least remember me. The initial events of our time together were rather extraordinary. As a matter of fact anyone who’s heard the story agrees it could be a movie and that includes her at the time. I’ve actually got a short story written about it.
It’s one of the things that makes it so hard. I really should have never gotten to know her at all but I did.
I wouldn’t say she ruined my love life. I’ve been married for almost 20 years and generally have contained this well, but like I said, The cancer treatment was the first time I had to really face that time was flying. It’s gotten me connecting with people I left drift into the past. She just never drifted enough for me.
Generally, though I’m standoffish with people in general and quick to pull the trigger when I feel mutual feelings are not there. I’m deathly afraid of being ghosted though I didn’t know the term at the time. That’s the biggest effect she had on me.
Her dad was definitely in my court. The last time I saw her he called when I was there. She said guess who’s here. She didn’t seem to mind at all. There was so much positive to latch onto. Sadly, I do know he passed away quite some time ago.
I think it would have been different if we’d said goodbye and I left on my own terms. It’s always made me question what we actually had and definitely turned me from a silly romantic optimist to a much more cynical realist.
I suspect that while she would remember but the details would be gone for her.
I am more than happy to share about this, maybe some good will come of it, maybe not.
Nisor says
John hi,
You say you have written a story on your extraordinary friendship w LO, did you publish it? Would she recognize herself in the story. How sweet of you, you must’ve loved her dearly. I wish my LO have written a love story about us. I always thought of writing one myself…
Maybe she remembers more than you think. Perhaps she was secretly in love with you, but you were too young, too shy to disclose to her? Some women, like me, expect the men to take the initiative and they follow…
Wishing you never had met her is in vain, its destiny to blame
who put her in your way. If it wasn’t her it would have been someone else.
When I find myself pining for LO, I also wished he had not approached me that fateful evening. It was beyond my control, the stars were aligned for us to meet, he was so polite and kind, different from anyone else I had met. It was like finding the unicorn! Everything rolled so smoothly, it was a bliss. Love is so beautiful when one is young and it’s reciprocated! After, like you say , one becomes a cynic. It’s because we have realized that life is unpredictable and unfair, one never gets whom we want or dream of. I think it’s the fairy tales that influence us to think that way…
I understand being afraid of being ghosted , who wouldn’t? I m somehow guilty of that one. When I walked out of my relationship with LO, i simply mailed him the mementos he gave me without a letter. It was so painful to take that decision but if I wrote a note or a letter it’d have been very painful for me. It was abhorrent and cruel of me, but I was so resentful and in grief I just couldn’t write a note. I feel so guilty, he didn’t deserve that. He called and called, finally came to my office to see me, but didn’t bring the subject matter to question me. He asked me if we could stay friends, and I said yes, but I knew I could never be friends with him. I loved him so much but was so arrogant to say it. Finally, he called early one morning to say he never before loved another woman more than me, and I said, now it’s too late. Then he said: I just wanted you to know that, to which I responded, I have to hang up, it’s getting late and I have to get ready for work. And that was our last conversation in 49 years. I don’t know how I got to tell him ‘now is too late’, that’s what came out of my mouth without thinking. How I regret those words today!!! It changed our destiny together !!! And, now it’s really too late to fix anything. That’s what causes me the greatest pain in all this limerence melange. Not being able to have a mature conversation about the ending of our love story. We both acted immature, period.
Saying goodbye to someone is a very difficult task. Most people avoid having that conversation and just disappear from the scene, they ghost you. You only see saying goodbyes in the movies, I think.
Did you ever made it known to your SO? I wouldn’t dare tell my SO, I don’t need to hurt him with my baggage.
It’s funny how life makes one reflect on how fleeting it all is, in sickness, terrible disasters, unpredictable circumstances; it makes us realize that we are here for just a few numbers of years and they pass quickly, the clock starts ticking the minute you’re born. We have to make the best use of it before it’s too late. Friendships are important, not many, but a few real good ones. One you can confide in, comfort you when in travails. Its good to be part of a community, like a church. I attend church and we have good fellowship. I realized that when I became older, we need connection with other people. No one is an island…
Take good care of yourself, stay strong and have courage. Have a blessed happy weekend.
John says
Hi Nisor,
I have not published it yet, I have attempted to write it several times, sometime as a screenplay other times as a short story. Each time I stopped, this time I just wrote everything, got it all on paper and had a friend review it. Getting the voice correct has been a challenge, I have tried third person but it just doesn’t feel right.
I would expect she would definitely be able to tell it was about us.
I do plan to publish it but will need to change names as I don’t have permission plus aspects of it may have not aged well. Either way I did love her very much and care.
My favorite memories outside of one of my greatest adventures are the simple things. When she told me she had talked to her mom for the first time in ages and its the most secure she felt in a long time. Sitting on the couch watching Pretty Woman, talking about the possibility of me participating in Desert Storm, she really didn’t want that.
In the 34 or so years since first I looked into her eyes I have never once wished that did not happen. On my last weekend that I saw her, when she got engaged she asked what I thought of him and told me my opinion was important to her and then she played The Dance, those lyrics if you are unfamiliar
And now,
I’m glad I didn’t know
The way it all would end
The way it all would go
Our lives
Are better left to chance
I could have missed the pain
but Id have had to miss the dance
She most certainly knew how I felt, this was no secret. A man drives 15 hours each way on a 3 day weekend and sends flowers regularly it’s pretty obvious.
I stopped in a the flower shop so I could hand deliver flowers on one of my trips. Got to the shop on the way into town before they opened and once I said I was there for roses. They were like, you’re the sailor from Florida who always sends flowers to the pretty girl in west Houston.
Did she love me? Not romantically, this I know.
I was prepared to say goodbye because it was the right thing. I tried twice on that last weekend. It would have been better than the false hope of talking with her again. That is my sole regret.
I don’t think telling my SO would be particularly productive.
But it is great to get some of this out. I have one extremely close friend who has been my friend for almost 40 years. He’s of course heard the whole story.
Have a great weekend!
John
Nisor says
John hi,
I didn’t know publishing a book was so difficult, maybe in the USA. If you published it, would you send her a copy? How else could she know about the book?
Did you get to go to Iraq for Desert Storm? Boy, did i follow day after day, after day, until the end when they finally got Saddam Hussein. I used to stay awake watching CNN until five in the morning.( I’m in Europe)
Changing the subject, I still can’t get over her (LO) getting engaged and asking for your opinion and playing the song etc. That must have been very hurtful for you. Did you know in advance she was go engaged? Or it just happened without your previous knowledge? Don’t have to answer if it stirs some lingering feelings…
It seems you’re a very good and strong willed man , with a very sensitive soul.
Some people unwittingly hurt our feelings or make an impression on us that lasts for a lifetime . We must be grateful they were in our lives even if for a moment and wish them happiness in their lives.
I’m trying to convince myself to not bring the past to my life anymore (very difficult) since so many years have passed by, 51 years now, to be exact , since we went separate ways. And it so vivid in my mind, it feels it was yesterday! I keep on wondering how the mind works and asking why the mind plays these games of the memories with us? I was fine until that dream with LO that sent me on a spinning wheel ride, and into limerence , turning my life upside down. As you may have noticed I’m not a chick anymore , it all feels so ridiculous and incredible. I’ve been married for 47 years and never before had any crushes or desires for any other man, neither did I think or had dreams with bf/LO before. That’s when I started searching and found this site. At least I found a name and an explanation to my “torment “, and people who have the same torments as me and we understand each other well.
Cheer up and have a great weekend.
John says
It’s not so much that publishing is difficult, I’m trying to do it justice. I’ve considered sending it to her but we shall see. I’ve just completed the first draft. It needs a lot of work. For reasons specific to the story for her I will change some names.
I did not end up going anywhere dangerous for desert storm but it was a discussion we had while watching Hamburger Hill a Vietnam war moving we were watching together. No idea why. I recall her asking some questions about what was happening and explaining it and she had excitedly told her Dad about it. It was strange but satisfying like she didn’t have someone who would do that.
As for her engagement, I’d say our story involved what my friend referred to as some crazy cosmic timing. Such as the flowers arriving in mid argument. Well I arrived back from deployment after not talking with her for months because her SO had told me to stop calling but I had to make one more trip to say goodbye.
Maybe he proposed specifically because I was there , dont know. She was not engaged when I got there on Friday. By the time I left on Sunday she was. It sucked, yet she still left me hanging when I said “I guess this is goodbye.” Her response of “It doesn’t need to be, you never know what’s going to happen”. I latched onto that like someone lost at sea finding one last lifesaver. Maybe I forced his hand or maybe more cosmic timing. We were 21/22 year old kids at the time. I am a different person as I know she is too. I never expected my thoughts of her would last for over 30 years that’s for sure. I too have never experienced feelings for someone like her in all that time. A bit ashamed to say not even my spouse.
She treated me with such kindness that weekend though. I’d love to sit down, talk for a couple hours. Reminisce a bit, catch up and then say farewell. I think that would be amazing.
Nisor says
@John
Did you read the blog:
“LwL, Case Study: Limerent for an Ex” 6/1/2019
The comments are great.
Also blog: “Why wasn’t I good enough for them” 2/1/2020
Have a great day.
Mila says
For all who crave reciprocation as a warning message, and for people who can be bothered to advise me🙈:
Reciprocation or the certainty that he/she cares doesn’t assuage the limerence at all.
Since LO sent this surprisingly clear text (not saying he‘s limerent or in love but stating my important place in his life in a way that even I, usually the more forward person of us two, would have hesitated to text) I’m completely mired in thoughts of him again, like last summer. A major relapse.
Apart from doubting thoughts („how did he mean it? Only as a friend or more? I didn’t respond adequately, didn’t I? Is he disappointed now“ )I just feel close to him and miss him, and that’s not a good state to be in when he‘s neither my SO nor my next of kin.
He‘s away with his family and I feel the obligation to give them their family time without barging in with texts and stuff, but I did it anyway because I miss him. And that feels bad. I‘m restless and a bit sad and struggle to come back to a realistic picture of LO without pink and glimmery hues.
When I‘m restless like that, I feel the urge to act, close it off, whatever.
Three options:
1. I just sent a text wishing them a good time that could act as closing the conversation for the duration of his trip. I could not initiate texts anymore and just respond with Emojis if he texts.
2. I could go with the flow, text when I want to and respond if he texts, not forcing anything and trying to let the feelings go through me and pass.
3. I could be honest, text him that I miss him but that it’s all a bit much for me and maybe we just take a break and resume contact after his trip.
Of course the last feels most like action to me, as if I take control, but then it could sound too dramatic and stir up more than is good.
The first could be misunderstood, he could feel hurt or neglected for the wrong reasons by me pulling away, which would cause my pain again, or he could start asking questions which is maybe also not a good idea.
The second is more like my planned strategy anyway, and doesn’t provoke unwanted reactions, but it’s kind of painful. And will it get me back to a better distance from him? I don’t know. It only works when I really let the feelings pass, and I would have to be stronger than I feel now, otherwise it would be just going on on the same path.
I‘m walking here and there and beating against the prison walls, so to speak.
I know the best thing would be not to think of it much and let all be. But am I strong enough to let it be and not ruminate? maybe I need one piece of action to get the needed peace of mind?
I know, in the end it’s all futile and it‘s only two weeks, after that we‘ll meet again anyway, and then it will be decision time, maybe just go on like always and sit it out, I don’t know.
Anyway- see, dear limerents with LO s that don’t care- I know it hurts badly, maybe it’s better than this prolonged mutual mess…
Imho says
Mila, I have to be quick to reply as I’m off out (although speed of thought is not my strong point)
Very sorry you are essentially relapsing due to this big trigger of his message.
I personally would say definitely not no. 3 and add a burden to him that you are suffering, that is not fair. I also wouldn’t play the emoji only game.
It’s his family time and maybe if he does start texting back to say let’s catch up when you are back and show no hard feelings or anything by saying you will really forward to it etc but you are respecting his holiday he needs time away to reflect on his big decision, and that includes you. A holiday is just that, a break from the normal, work, family, friends, normal habits. For me anyway, I like to disappear for a while.
So is that an option 4. I don’t know Mila. 2 weeks seems long but it really isn’t.
I will check in later …. Try to get time outside and off your phone 😀
Bewitched says
Dear Mila,
I agree with Imho. Definitely not option 3. Something between 1. and 2. may tide you over until the normal routine re-establishes itself. This is all very potent: he has made a declaration of sorts, he has a leave/stay work decision which affects you, and he out of contact for a few days. Still, I think it is best to let him initiate all / most contact for these 2 weeks. You can tell yourself that you are there if he needs you but you’re not interfering in his family time? I think that’s ethically the only real option. Sorry if this sounds harsh, I think its the best thing for you if you tell yourself that you are taking a principled stand. Yet I do empathise with the relapse and the reasons why this has happened. More leaning on 1. with a tiny bit of 2., so he doesnt think that you are being odd with him, basically.
This sounds as though it will come to a head soon if you are not able to reclaim your calmness. Sending hugs!!
Mila says
Hi Bewitched,
thank you too for helping me, you are all such kind and considerate people!
Yes, not initating is my plan. It might be also his plan to reduce contact, I’m not sure. But I should stop thinking what he thinks and do what I think is best.
In my post to Imho is a lot of what I’m thinking.
It might be best just to wait it out until my feelings calm down again, and just answer nicely when he writes, but not send anything by myself, thus reducing rumination- the less I have to think and decide about it, the better.
The urge to „do something“ stems from wanting to escape pain, but maybe it’s not really helping now, because matters are still unresolved (does he leave or not).
I‘m probably making too big a thing about these two weeks now anyway.
„ This sounds as though it will come to a head soon if you are not able to reclaim your calmness. “
Not sure about that. I know how much is at stake (lifelong friendship) and plan to restrain myself no matter what, and since he is the opposite of impulsive or active , he won’t come out with a rash disclosure or similar.
We might still sail this ship into steady waters!
Mila says
Hi Imho,
thanks for reaching out even when you were busy!
I agree with you and Bewitched that an undramatic reduction of contact would be best.
I‘m just not sure if any message indicating I want to reduce contact (like, I’ll leave you to your family and holidays, let’s catch up later- it’s his decision if he needs a break, no? When I want a break, I shouldn’t pretend he needs one?) wouldn’t be already too much and get his rumination going?
I think the need to take action and „stop“ something outwardly is futile, it’s looking for fast relief.
The most important stuff is going on inside me (as stated in the newest article), and it matters more that I get to a calm and accepting state inside than sending signals of reduced contact to him.
But not quite sure if I still wouldn’t need some decision and reduction to reach this state of mind.
I took my mind off it yesterday by having a really nice day with family. Activity helps, although there is a background humming.
He sent photos of food (me being his personal Instagram;) but us being in different time zones, the time frame for messaging is anyway reduced.
Plus, maybe I imagine it, but he‘s also a bit restrained.
Maybe I should just leave it at that. I definitely won’t initiate in these two weeks, and I think they could pass in this way of pictures here and there and not much more, without problems, but I’m still not sure if that’s the right thing for me.
But in the end, it’s not that important. Important is that I get a normal kind of distance to him again and away from this circling of thoughts.
Imho says
Hi Mila, you kinda figured it all out in your message. I don’t think you really needed inputs from LwL as you know yourself how you are best gonna handle this situation.
I think your original message yesterday sounded more lost/desperate than you probably actually felt, hence the replies you received. my message/pseudo advice was on basis of your LO escalating texting/affection more than the norm.
I still think distance and a good time away from messaging and phones in general brings so many benefits. Constant contact does not give any perspective or any time to decompress and reflect on self and relationships.
When can you really have time to do that if you are messaging every day or even couple of days.
Wishing you and everyone a great week!
Mila says
Hi Imho,
no, I actually was lost and desperate and very thankful for the responses.
I might know myself deep down what is best, but I still feel urges to do the opposite, and messages from neutral but compassionate persons help enormously, sometimes only because I feel heard. (Does that make sense, grammatically?)
The feeling to be heard and taken seriously is something rare for the limerent soul, especially when there are barriers and you cannot tell anyone in your life about it, and it pushes my mind forward to find the right answer or at least move forward and not revolve in circles of doubt.
I hope you yourself are doing ok, Imho!
New week, new strength to care about the things that really matter.
Imho says
Hi Mila, glad the comments helped on the weekend, and good always to get broad and different perspectives. You are absolutely heard and as usual great support here, to help get through those difficult days!
Thanks for asking on me.
I’m doing different things than normal this week. A bit stressful but a change is a good thing as I know it helps distance me a bit from all the fantasy LE nonsense. Helps, but not solves 😀
Jaideux says
Mila, relapse is not a good thing, so it seems to me that the best way to end it is by respecting his family and going no contact. Period. Seems like you have to be the strong one, finding the strength to do the right thing for your self-respect and also that is the best gift for him so that he can focus on his family. I wouldn’t worry about his feelings being hurt. You have to save yourself. Hoping for the best for you!
Mila says
Hi Jaideux,
Thanks for the clear message!
I would agree if it wouldn’t be for him being one of my best friends for decades, including families. Cannot go suddenly NC because of that and don’t want to. It would mean that I have lost my battle. I don’t want limerence to win and me to lose my best friend.
Also, it could be that he‘ll be my colleague again, and then it’s anyway not possible, then I would need a good (but limerent-free) relationship with him anyway.
If it sounded as if he had disclosed, he didn’t, he just sent a very warm message telling me that I‘m special for him, but was still in the „green“ zone of friendship.
My limerence started when he left my workplace and now his decision if he comes back or stays away is hanging in the air- this fear of losing one of my best people caused limerence to flare up and us clinging to each other a bit, but I still think it can go down to friendship again once he decided.
Chances are 80:20 that he stays away, so that would solve matters definitely. Even if he stays I think limerence would go down. I just cannot cope with this uncertainty of him leaving or not.
Mila says
„ and also that is the best gift for him so that he can focus on his family.“
Thought about this one in terms of only the two weeks (as I said, sudden NC forever is for the moment out of the picture), but I think it would do the opposite- his thoughts would go to why I went nc instead of focus on his family.
I think the best for him is the feeling that everything is friendly on all fronts, and then he doesn’t have to think about it and can concentrate on his family and his decision.
But, as you said, I have to save myself too. For me, it’s also good if nothing dramatic happens now on the outside.
I should just divert my thoughts and time (and his decision) will do her thing, I’m kind of lucky that I have this decision coming from outside and not have to do it all myself.
Maybe I rely too much on it?
But am not capable of anything more at the moment.
Nisor says
Hi Mila
I understand those news of him reciprocating you are beautiful and at the same time upsetting.
That’s the dream of each limerent, but what are you going to do with this knowledge???? This is the kind of question Limerent Emeritus asks all the time to limerents. How are you going to act from now on? Do you have a realistic plan for the future for both of you? You’re in a very complicated and confusing situation now. Are you ready for the consequences of the LE exploding? It’s going to be painful… you, and only you can make a choice.
Relax and think it over when you’re calmed down. Hugs.
Mila says
Hi Nisor,
I‘m sorry if it sounded as if he disclosed, as I wrote to Jaideux, he just sent a very warm and for him unusually clear text that I‘m a very special person for him.
Of course it was very exciting for my limerent heart, but it still could be „only“ friendship.
Even if it wasn’t, neither of us would do anything to disrupt or cheat on our families, of that I‘m 100% sure.
I just have to calm down, that’s true. I‘m already much calmer today, having had a nice family day yesterday.
Mila says
And hugs to you too! Hope you are feeling good today and have a nice Sunday!
Bewitched says
Hey Mila,
I am so, so glad that you had a good family day yesterday. It just goes to show that distraction works for reducing the ruminations. And reducing the ruminations really is the key to everything.
Things will get decided once and for all very soon – this indecision is a killer!
I am also not ruminating and have managed to regain neutral mindset again. Lets see what happens when I next have contact with him.
Let’s have a Happy Sunday, this week, rather than an anxious one!!
Much strength and well wishes to you.
Mila says
Hi Bewitched,
great that you feel better and less ruminative (if that’s a word)!
Sunday goes ok so far. Will try to concentrate on living more healthy, I need it (too much caffeine and sugar again..)instead on limerent stuff.
Have a great day!
ABCD says
Hi Mila. I’m sorry you’re feeling low. Relapses can happen, take it from me.
I’m sorry if I don’t recall, but is your LO planning to move out for good? If that happens, it will give you a chance to go nc, and you may get some sort of closure, or at least start to feel better. Oh and one more thing, you’ll need to steer clear of lo interaction on social media.
I’m sure you can do 2 weeks nc. I did 6 weeks, nothing much from my side, it was a natural nc. Overall, my thoughts started to get better after the initial 1-2 weeks.
My LE is so emotionally charged even now, God knows what would happen if lo and I found out it’s mutual Limerence.
Sending you tonnes of strength!
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
„ I’m sorry if I don’t recall, but is your LO planning to move out for good“
He left my work place last summer but is still in a sort of trial period at the new job in another town, for that period he and his family stayed in our town. He‘ll have to decide soon if he will move for good or return to my work place.
Since he left for family reasons that are still valid I don’t quite see why he would return, but he seems to be unable to decide. Still, he‘ll have to, and I think in either case I can tone down limerence. If he leaves, it will definitely end, I think. If he stays, it will be a bit more delicate to navigate, but it’s we worked together for a decade without being limerent, we can go back to that, I‘m sure. Regular exposure to him and his less perfect traits without anxiety to lose him will solve the problem.
But I guess he‘ll leave. I will be very sad then but it would mean a certain end of this vexing LE.
I lined out in my previous posts why I don’t think complete NC for 2 weeks would come across too dramatic and would stir up more than I‘d like to. I‘ll just not initiate and be polite.
Thanks for supporting me! I hope you are feeling ok this weekend?
Mila says
BTW , steering clear of social media is not the problem here since he hardly ever posts something there, thank God..
Mila says
Imho, Bewitched, Jaideux, ABCD
Thank you all so much ! I‘m so touched by your concerned and thoughtful messages.
I took Imhos advice without having read it, put the phone away and had a great day with my family. I will answer tomorrow!
Mila says
And Nisor, of course!!
Nisor says
Good day Mila,
Great that you had a terrific day with the family.
Have you read the blog: Close study: limerent for a close family friend “? 1/13/2019
Wishing you courage and wisdom to sort out all this and a good outcome for all parties involved. Hope these 2 weeks pass quickly…without rumination.
Mila says
I‘ve read it, but long ago, interesting to read again, especially the bit about disclosure making everything worse…
I met this pianist only shortly after a concert he played, two or three words exchanged, but he seemed very nice and gentle. He‘s goodlooking but not my type.
But he‘s a fantastic pianist, I really loved how he played. Very imaginative and sensitive, but with power.
John says
Hi Nisor,
Thanks for sharing those posts. The first unfortunately does not apply. She’s not my ex. I tried to win her heart and failed rather epically, though I got way further than anyone would have bet. I’m a rather shy and insecure person. Being a short man never helps. I used a lifetime worth of courage and based on what I’ve told you there may have been some feelings at some level.
The second post cuts to the core. The one thing that I can’t swallow is the possibility with all that I did I was merely a nuisance. That was definitely worsened by her not accepting goodbye and then ghosting me.
In the decades since I’ve never been hurt once. You mentioned it seemed like I have a sensitive soul. The person who lived that did. Either that is gone or protected so well I’m not sure you could get to it. Not even my SO has access and I feel guilty about that because she should. It’s not because I still love my LO. It’s because I couldn’t survive that again.
I keep most personal relationships to a minimum. My work relationships are fantastic because they are value based and measurable.
If I ever sense an imbalance in someone else’s favor regarding effort, I’m out. Only my friend of decades can get away with the sense of ghosting. He’s terrible responding to texts and I have to regularly remind my self.
If I do sense hurt my only response is generally anger. I’m not a better man than I was before the experience, just different.
It probably would have good to have something like this back then. As it is I muddled through and relied on increasing introversion and reduced risk taking with people.
Thanks for chatting though. I do appreciate it.
Nisor says
@ John,
There’s a lot to unpack in your message. I wish I had the knowledge and tools , and the command of the English language to help you on this journey.
“As it is I muddled through and relied on increasing introversion and reduced risk taking with people.”
It breaks my heart to see you’ve withdrawn into a cocoon to protect yourself from being hurt again, and I really understand that. I swore to myself never to love again the way I loved my ex.bf/LO, but I didn’t go into a cocoon to stop me from trusting people, friends and new possibilities of a more mature relationship with a male. If anything, I took the whole episode as a lesson to learn to see things more realistically, If I make myself understood. I was afraid of being hurt again, and I kept my shields up, always alert of my vulnerabilities. I moved on, got married, have a good marriage; , I see you also got married, that’s some accomplishment! We don’t always get whom or what we want. Many at LwL blog got married without being in limerence, but have great marriages .Limerence is just an illusion, a fantasy we have to work on, I suppose. We’re all trying to figure this out…
Also, you mention , your only response to hurt is generally anger. Some work has to be done here. Apparently, you need some work with your emotions. Perhaps you didn’t go through a period of grief when felt hurt and abandoned by this girl/LO, you may have bottled it all up and now it’s showing up. There are “5 stages of grief “, others sites have 8 stages of grief, and what each one means, look it up in the internet and get some helpful information to help you understand your hurt. Getting to know yourself better is the surest way to finding peace over this.
On the possibility of just being a nuisance to this girl, by what you have posted about her, it seems you were not, because she was attentive and happy to have you around, something she didn’t have to feel obliged to do. She could very well have said to not come there anymore. If she ghosted you, probably, her new bf made her put up boundaries; you were a “threat” to him. You had something he didn’t have, and this girl appreciated it. You were shy and insecure as you say, maybe because of your stature? I’m petit, 5’2, and I have had gone out with guys shorter than me, I wasn’t interested in the height but the personality. This was not a beauty contest, but being understood and cared for. My LO was tall and handsome, but that was not what caught my attention, it was his personality. As a matter of fact, I thought nothing of him, until I started to discover his inner soul. That’s what is important in a relationship. The other things are mainly irrelevant. Some people have identity doubts and one have to work on it. There’s this woman who has a podcast named : MARISSA PIER, English therapist, I think she’s very good at getting people to increase their self esteem. Try it, you may like it.
Wishing you courage and strength, good health and a fantastic week.
Nisor says
Correction: name is, Marisa Peer, videos.
She’s a therapist .
John says
Hi Nisor,
Thank you so much.
In terms of knowing myself, one thing is certain, I am most definitely an introvert. I can be outgoing with small groups that I am comfortable with and at work where the boundaries are well defined. In larger social situations and meeting new people I would imagine I’d probably be diagnosed with social anxiety. My SO actually finally got me to go to one of my work Christmas Parties last year. I had never gone to one since I got out of the Navy. Most people have different interests so I try not to talk about mine because if I get going I can talk your ear off.
Talking with the opposite sex has always been brutal for me and I only asked one girl out in high school and you know when the words don’t come out and it’s gibberish? I only thought that happened in movies. To that girls credit, she kept a straight face.
So I really put myself out there for my LO who I must admit I was attracted to physically at first. She was tiny, under 5 ft talk, dark hair and glasses. A look that my friends have come to know very well. She did fit great in my arms, I did love holding her.
I didn’t jump right back into my shell after but I did not ask anyone out for many years though. It was a slow “recovery” where I just felt more comfortable not engaging too much.
I did have a near LE with a married coworker but luckily caught myself and she distinctly noticed my change in behavior. Leading up to that I had been going out with her and her husband and another coworker regularly. One night she was upset with hubby, I think he looked at a cute waitress too long and she ended up dancing with me.
She noticed my change in behavior as I was very standoffish as did our other coworker. We went for a walk, I explained I was developing feelings and that I had to be very careful. We remained friends and that was that. We maintained our friendship until I switched jobs even double dating with my SO.
But that is a case where I got angry with myself and I think the results were quite effective.
As for being married, my SO is definitely not an LE. It’s not hugely passionate. We got married in our mid 30s so I just kind of settled into it. It’s pretty ordinary and day to day.
I have slowly started to reconnect with people who were in my life, not coincidentally about 30 years ago after my treatment including my best buddies from high school. But I’m not concerned if we lose touch or anything like that.
There was a true sense of abandonment with my LO that I’m not sure I’ll ever get over.
I’ve never spoken to a woman about my experiences. I had a female friend in the Navy who I’d swap duty with so I could go see her but that’s the extent. It is really nice talking with you about this since you can understand my perspective and this blog is the first time I’ve not written it off as just me being insane.
I hope, someday, you’ll be able to read my story, aspects are embarrassing but I’d love to hear what people whom I have not told in person think.
Thanks so much, have a super week.
Nisor says
Hi
John,
You made me laugh with: ‘when the words don’t come out and it’s gibberish’, ha, this is a strange thing that happens to most limerents
, if not all. The cat gets your tongue. It’s the same for both sexes. I don’t know why it happens and think no one can explain it with certainty . I think it’s because of the awareness that one exposing one’s vulnerabilities is fearful , and difficult to express your feelings to another person? But it’s a beautiful innocent feeling, isn’t it? I had an opportunity to have closure with my LO, after so many years of silence, when I made the first phone call, but I was dammed tongue tied all the time, I was shy like a school girl and trembling, confused and weak; something very strange for an elder person to go through. Just very ridiculous! I still can’t believe it!
So is life, right?
Also your comment on the blog , ‘I’ve not written it off as just me being insane’. Being insane is what most of all thought when hit with limerence. I was afraid for my mental health and was about to tell my SO. I was ready to consult a psychologist, but I would have to explain to SO why. We’re always together and I
don’t drive, hence he’d have to drive me around. No way!
About anger, there’s good anger and bad anger. Good anger when it’s for a good reason or purpose. Bad anger is when one loses control over something and gets to hurt oneself and other people, it brings conflict and destruction.
“There was true sense of abandonment with my LO that I’m not sure I’ll ever get over.”
I’m sorry it’s such a deep wound in your heart. Do you think therapy is necessary for you? I don’t think one can ever forget an LO or the love one once had with such intensity… the memories are imprinted deep in the brain and they come to the surface often enough as to not let you forget. It’s like a tattoo on your skin, indeleble.
Not passionate for the SO, well, there are limerents that married madly in love with their sweethearts, but it all went away with time passing. Love is a verb, the couple have to work on it constantly so as not to have the flame extinguished. Unfortunately, limerents or not, they all wind up getting bored of one another. There are countless of couples with “dead” bedrooms for decades , therefore the cheating . The middle age crisis hits almost every one, male and female. After all, it would be nice marrying someone one is madly in love with… It’s not true of all couples.
Many couples marry for rebound, others for convenience, money, still others for fame, or just to have a family or not staying alone, that is for companionship. None of that helps when one doesn’t get the one one wanted…got to live with that sorrow and acceptance and be grateful for what we have. What else can we do?
Stay well and strong 💪🏽 .
Bewitched says
Hi John,
Re: stature, I am quite tall but have been attracted to plenty of men who were not tall and some were not as tall as me (by maybe 5 cms). My daughter is very tall and I hope that she will consider partners of all heights, otherwise she will lose out. When a person meets someone they like a lot, especially someone who is their ‘romantic archetype’, I think that many of the superficial physical attributes go out the window. A very common case in point would be baldness which I do not think bothers most women at all.
Secondly, I do want to throw out there a female perspective on some of the motivations of your LO all those years ago. She kept you hanging on while also getting back with her cheating ex boyfriend, right? To me, this sounds like classic immature behaviour and many of us have been there. Its nice to have someone who is lovely and dependable in your orbit, lavishing attention on you when another love interest is messing you about. There is nothing particularly noble about this behaviour, of course. And its horrible for the sincere suitor in to be in this ‘second place’ position. But I think lots of young or inexperienced people do this type of thing when they are figuring out what they want, romantically. “Do I want this nice and dependable guy or the other more risky option?” Its a difficult conundrum to navigate when inexperienced. Because its understandable, but not very nice, perhaps its not too surprising that she then ‘ghosted’ you later. Because she was not proud of stringing you along, or, not willing to risk the drama with a possibly angry ex.
Being away for long period of time due to your job (while also having little or no free time to socialise with friends and ,embers of the opposite sex) must have been very very hard on you. So I can imagine why it left such a large impression.
Nisor’s insight is really valuable because she has an LO that harks back over a long time ago and I find her comforting myself.
I would say that you need to be kind to yourself, first and foremost.
Sending all the best wishes.
John says
Hi Nisor,
Funny you should mention bald. My hair has been relatively short since I was in the military and got shorter and shorter as my hairline receded. Once I began to shave it I wished I had done it sooner. It’s one of the few physical aspects I actually feel very confident about and hate if I don’t shave daily. I’m only 5’5” and while I don’t have to care it certainly had a negative impact growing up.
As for this being comforting. That is most definitely not the case. I was excited when I first discovered the term, read the book…hey that’s me I’m not alone. The honeymoon ended there. This site hasn’t told me anything I didn’t know deep down 32 years ago.
I should forget her, throw away her pictures, let it go. This is not comforting at all. I’ve gotten by telling myself all I needed was the goodbye I didn’t follow through on. That would have fixed everything. I’ve played that conversation over and over a million ways.
Fact is, and I’ve done some awesome things since, her memory still beats them all, not even close. Some was fantasy but it all happened. I probably never had a shot with her but damn I was happy when we were together. I’m so guilty of all of this stuff.
On my 21st birthday when I got to her house for the first time and her dad pulled me into the house, called her down and said stand next to that girl, you need a picture. Put your arm around her. I’d never met the man and had just driven 1/3 of the way across the country just to see his little girl. I carried that picture in my shirt pocket over a year. How do I give that up?
I’m a classis day dreamer, prone to fantasy and not living in the present. Probably the classic case for this limerence stuff.
Comfort, there is no comfort facing that. Obviously, no contact has not worked so my fantasies must go. UGH.
I merely appreciate having someone who understands better than most.
While there are embarrassing things in our story and after reading someone might think differently of me I would welcome that over never having told it.
I really do appreciate your perspective and chatting though I feel I’ve troubled you enough. You are the only one whom I really engaged with and as you can see, I can go on and on with my memories.
Thanks so much,
John
Adam says
I had a bit of a setback this weekend. I called Momma, Morgan. Momma asked me “Can I ask you a question?” I knew it wasn’t going to be good. She asked me if I had remembered that the previous night I had fell off my side of the bed. And when she asked me if I was okay I called her Morgan following quickly with correcting myself with Momma. I told her than that I did not, honestly, and still don’t. I kinda spent the weekend kinda ruminating about it. I tried to distract myself with my gaming, a humorous post on facebook (which I rarely post on) and of course my worst enemy alcohol; to try and forget about it. It’s been my first major setback since I have been doing so well.
Momma just asked me if there was something going on. She didn’t get mad at me or upset. She was just asking if there was a trigger that set it off. And honestly I have not been thinking about her. I don’t know why that name came out of my mouth. But all she wanted to know was what was going on in my head. Not get angry at me for calling her by another woman’s name. Especially her’s. I continually prove that I don’t deserve this woman’s love.
Mila says
Hi Adam,
don’t worry too much about it and give it a bigger meaning than it has. You say you honestly haven’t been thinking about her, so that’s that. Your subconscious threw the name up, but it doesn’t mean much.
I wouldn’t call it a setback!
Lovisa says
Hi Adam,
I guess it was a bit of a set back, but you both handled it well. It sounds like you have a loving and patient wife to help you make sense of what happened. Maybe you shouldn’t avoid it this time. Can you process it instead?
I don’t know if this helps, but I’ve called my husband LO3’s name three times in the last few years. My closest brother shares a name with LO3 and I’m confident that one of those slip ups was about my brother and not LO3. One of the slip ups was from a random kid at my daughter’s school. My husband and I were on the yearbook committee and I had a question about a student whose name is LO3 and I accidentally called my husband that name while asking the question. The third time I called my SO LO3’s name could have been attributed to my brother or my LO3. I don’t know. I had spent the day with my brother and I also texted LO3 that day so I really don’t know who I was thinking about when I called my SO that name. I feel stupid every time it happens, but my SO is always nice about it. I don’t know if that helps. I thought you might like to know that you aren’t the only person who makes that mistake.
Nisor says
Hi Lovisa,
I’m glad you’re back . Hope everything is well with the family. I understand how difficult it is to solve some else’s problems. May God give strength and wisdom to you and family. May He keep you in His perfect peace.
Have beautiful blessed day. 💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽
ABCD says
Hi Adam. I think the name came up at a subconscious level, so it’s not a setback. I would say do not think too much about it.
Bewitched says
Hi Adam,
I don’t think its useful to ruminate on this as it might just cement Morgan’s name in your head more than is necessary. My own personal experience of this is kind of a funny story – I have a lovely elderly neighbour who’s name rhymes with his dog’s name – there is only one letter is different between the two names, man and dog. I have managed to totally confuse my husband because I made a few jokes where I called the man by the dog’s name and vice-versa. My husband is not happy with me because he now finds it really difficult to get their names the right way around.
As you say, it popped out of your sub conscious, when ironically you had been doing very well and not thinking about Morgan very much at all.
I say continue not to think about her or her name and you will lower the risk of a Freudian slip!
Nisor says
Hi Adam,
Oops, a slip of the tongue and you get in trouble…not really, Momma is aware that you’re a repented limerent. She understands the triggers, that’s why she asked you, she was just trying to help. I’m aware you’re feeling guilty and concerned over this, but hey, these things happen, you don’t have to be afraid or defending yourself all the time. And making it worse by running to the darned bottle. I don’t know how much is enough of explaining how the unconscious works, one have no control of it! Momma probably knows that too. So, please relax and continue your life as usual. Remember , the blog is called: Living with Limerence for a reason , it takes time to get over an LE, if at all; we are all in the same boat, unfortunately…
Mixing up names is common , it happens to everyone. The problem is when it’s LO’s name, something I’m afraid of myself. I was once terrified , when I was ruminating all day long and calling LO’s name aloud, that I would somehow slip his name in a conversation with SO! It’s like we’re condemned for ever! Just relax, and if you think of her, so what?, no one should control our thoughts. And thanks God, thoughts are not visible…
Strength and courage my friend. And a warm bear hug from grandma.
frederico says
Hey, Adam. I’d try not to worry about it too much, if you can, and especially don’t be so hard on yourself. Your wife just expressed concern for you, that’s all. Of course you deserve her love.
I know it was embarrassing, and unfortunate, but it’s almost like a slip of the tongue. The way the brain behaves is such a mystery, even after reading nearly every blog available on l.w.l.
A few weeks ago I went to a lunch party. A couple there have names that both begin with the letter “P”. I get them mixed up. I’m a bit out of touch with socialising and, when I saw them, I rehearsed their names in my head so that I wouldn’t get it wrong.
I called the first one I spoke to by the wrong name. It was because I was keyed up. He was irritated. It was embarrassing.
I know it’s not the same as what happened to you but I think our brains play tricks sometimes.
Take it easy and enjoy the love.
f
Bewitched says
Dear Frederico,
Woah, sounds like you would absolutely hate me in real life 🙂
See my story above.
Imagine how much more difficult your lunch party would have been if someone had messed with your head like I did to my poor SO. The fence came down between our two houses and the two of them were out there for days, mending it together. All the while, my SO is second guessing himself so he didn’t mess up on my lovely neighbour’s name (while the dog was jumping about them in great excitement)…
When I make a mistake like that, I always say “I am so sorry, I am terrible with names, but I never forget a face…” (which is true) and people seem to forgive me.
frederico says
No, Bewitched, I think I’d like you in real life. Your anecdote is very funny.
f
Adam says
Thank you all for your support and kind words. I appreciate them all. I don’t know what is going on with my life. My wife and I talked at length Sunday evening about things in general. Where I am going with church. What to do to move both of us forward in a positive way for the whole family. I feel like I am on co-pilot in life. I am trying to do things purposefully and I think being here helps me find that purpose. In reading Dr L’s recent post it hurts me to know that people go through this. I don’t want people to have to pay the prices I have for what I have done. And the prices their families have to pay too. It’s not just a price for the limerent. I don’t want to hear people thinking about sacrificing relationships over limerence. Ugh this mid life $hit sucks.
Imho says
Hi Adam,
” I am trying to do things purposefully and I think being here helps me find that purpose.”
You generously help others here on LwL and glad that is giving you purpose too.
Going back to your original message on the name slip at the weekend, I am thinking that being here on LwL and commenting here is keeping the name from your LE present – at least in your subconscious.
It just is that way, nothing dramatic or relapse or nothing like that, it’s just the human brain being the human brain it is.
I often have dreams incorporating things or people that I’ve interacted with or discussed on that day.
I had a crazy travel dream last night (which I won’t bore you with the details ) but it included passport security checks. This dream was all because I had to get details from my passport earlier than day to fill in a form.
Hope this makes sense.
Adam says
Imho
I dream about work quite often. Even jobs that I have had many, many years ago. Work tends to be a common setting in my dreams. So maybe that’s why her name came to mind.
“Going back to your original message on the name slip at the weekend, I am thinking that being here on LwL and commenting here is keeping the name from your LE present – at least in your subconscious.”
I worry about that too. It’s like giving some money to a homeless person but thEn feeling bad because you can’t give like you would want to because you have a family to care for. I want to help others, but if it is a the sake of my own recovery?
I think my wife still checks in here even if she doesn’t comment. And I talk to her about the community and some of the developments with people, to get her opinion as the wife of a limerent. So I figure if she feels I am in too deep she will tell me. We talked a little last night about things too. So I know she knows I still come here. Hopefully I can find a balance.
Jim says
I don’t think this lovely lady is 100% right in this instance , but her channel’s been exploding lately and she’s taken to covering limerence . She thinks that , for women , it’s all about an obsession with “the bad boy” , enjoy 😉
https://youtu.be/M0KW3zbpZcQ?si=sK-vKvNDwtV0tndm
Mila says
Had to turn it off after one minute.
She hasn’t grasped the concept of limerence, or I haven’t. I , unfortunately a limerent, haven’t fallen for her „bad boys“ ever. Also, I simply cannot stand generalizations.
Sorry John🙈
I as a woman can tell you that no, for „us women“it’s not always about an obsession for a „bad boy“.
Mila says
And now I insulted you because you are called Jim and not John. Apologies!
Jim says
Hi Mila !
Hope you’re well , no worries , I’ve been called worse than “John” ! Thought I’d throw it out there to spark a little conversation , I think this lady Karyn is possibly projecting her own “reasons” (mental justification) for “limerence” (physically cheating on her younger boyfriend) out there onto her own viewers , i’m sure the comment section is going to make for interesting reading !
Nisor says
Hi Jim,
She doesn’t know what’s she’s talking about. Didn’t do her homework. Probably, the bad boy she’s referring to , she means a “narcissist”. The content of the video is an insult to good men out there as well as women. She doesn’t sound professional to me, just repeating herself, trying to make a point she’s not convinced of. Just ridiculous, not worth our time.
Good night 💤 and thanks for the info.
frederico says
Agreed, Nisor. A ludicrous and stupid video, as expected.
Lovisa says
I sat through almost the whole video. She is wrong. I am attracted to good men. She was also wrong about many other points. I don’t think she understands limerence. I can’t take her seriously.
Thanks for sharing, Jim!
Jim says
Thanks Lovisa , great to see you here again , I was getting worried about you . How’s things going with your mum and sister ? Glad you found the video interesting – if you sort the comments on that video by newest you might “recognise” the poster “Bob” in the blue shirt someone you might know by another name 😉
John says
Hi Nisor and Bewitched,
My last response was more to bewitched response. Thanks for adding. I appreciate it.
As for therapy, I’m not sure. This was all so long ago and it feels like it’s just part of me.
I’m happy to say that things aren’t dead in the bedroom as it were. My SO and I have a good relationship. I’m not great sharing my feelings but I think our marriage has improved with time as we’ve learned better how to cope with disagreements and such.
I’d never cheat and oddly I have my LO to thank for that to a small degree. My one comment when she asked what I thought about her new fiancé was I don’t like that he cheated on you. No one deserves that. I’d hate to bump into her and not be able to look her in the eye on that one. I’d want her to be proud of the man I am if I had nothing else from her.
John says
Oh and as for why the cats got your tongue happened. Completely my fault. I told one of my more confident friends I was going to ask this particular girl out. We were standing outside the locker rooms for high school sports. She walked by, I chickened out, she walked by again. Same thing. My friend then says if you dont stop her I will. And that’s exactly what he did. Put me right on the spot. My face felt as hot as the sun.
I composed my self, some unintelligible nonsense. Silence. I took a deep breath, composed and tried again. More gibberish. Stopped, recomposed and got it out. Had 5 friends behind me trying to contain themselves.
How that poor girl kept a straight face I’ll never know.
I won’t lie it was pretty funny though I never spoke to her again. It was tough. She was in my homeroom and definitely my first limerence experience.
Bewitched says
Hi John,
First and foremost, you should not feel like you are ‘burdening’ anyone on here with your memories or any issues that you may be having in processing / letting go of this LO. We are all frequent posters and tend to go around and around in circles (have you noticed?!).
@Mila says that its like a snail shell, going around and around, feels like going nowhere, but hopefully still getting closer to the exit.
I have not yet gotten a sense of the extent to which this LE is hurting you, though. You mentioned that it felt like it was ‘part of you’ and that the most painful thing that you can imagine is having to let it go? If that is the case, then you probably can’t hope for recovery, right, as its not actually what you want?
One of the fundamental thing I have learned on LwL is that our LEs are self-imposed patterns of thought that we have basically ‘trained our brains’ on our LOs. Hence, it is in our power to de-train the brains again. Even if that is fiendishly difficult. Its particularly difficult to de-train our though processes if the LE is helping us to self-medicate against stress, or is providing a level of validation and self worth, or is feeding our most fundamental drive to rescue another person,…etc. Self reflection and (potentially) therapy have helped some of the posters get over their LEs. While some of us are still stuck in the mire where we are not always sure if we want to let go (for me it is some days yes, some days no….).
John says
Let me first apologize if my previous post which was defensive and to Nisor as I thought I was responding to her. These can be a little hard to follow on a phone. I thought it was from Nisor and end where you referred to Nisor, looked like it was in the third person and I completely misread it.
As for how much hurt my LE is causing. That’s a tough one. I’m not sure I know because if I break it into two distinct phases, one where I had whatever relationship we had that was pretty much catastrophic. I’ve never felt passionate about a person since and dont know if it’s even possible.
The second phase is pretty much my entire adult life. The last time I saw her I was 22. I’m 54 now and I don’t recall a time where I haven’t wanted to see her again. I basically don’t know what it is to not be thinking about her at some point during the day.
Now my roommate from the Navy was kind enough to let me know we returned from Iceland on Aug 17, 1991. Which means the last day I saw her was Aug 25. A quick google tells me that’s 11,902 days! And of those maybe 50 where I was so busy or otherwise occupied that I made a day without thinking or fantasizing in some way.
It’s also almost 2/3 of my life and quite honestly there are times now when I think, whew probably got another 30 years to go, I’ve got this. But there are also days when I go to bed and say I just want to fall asleep in one of my memories and that’s it.
By most measures, I’m successful. Very good job, could retire anytime if I didn’t have a crazy hobby building an airplane in my garage which I’m lucky enough to have an SO who lets me do. I have a daughter about to go to college at a very good school. I should be very grateful and generally I am.
I was very excited when I found this term in a Facebook meme. I read the book in a single night and loved the first 2 chapters and hated the third. We know how many days I’ve been no contact. Obviously, that didn’t do the trick. Largely because I failed to say goodbye and ended getting ghosted. This was particularly problematic because between when I first asked her out and she agreed and when we actually ended up going out there was a bit of a time gap and I went through quite a lot to get first “date”. Oddly, it should not have happened but her dad loved the lengths I went to and she was fairly impressed as well. But that gap and stuff made this ending not on my own terms really bad and though I tried to call. Eventually the phone service ended and she had moved. She was lost again.
I know I’m a fool for even trying. I was in some ways too successful.
When I read on here that no contact and stopping the fantasies is the way, I know it to be true but I just can’t imagine letting go. It’s like when you’ve gotten so deep in a lie you just have to stick with it to save face. The hardest thing is that closure isn’t real. That’s been my thing forever now.
I’ve gone on and on here. Thanks for listening.
Nisor says
@John
No worries. I noticed you got me mixed up with Bewitched post. That’s fine, no problem.
It amazes me you’re 2/3rds of your life thinking (ruminating?) about LO! That’s a long time! I started ruminating about LO two years ago, all the previous years I didn’t think or dreamed of him; that would’ve been unbearable and I’d have ‘leaked’ at some point. That is: my SO would have noticed. That’s how strong these passions are!
Do you think you used LO fantasy as a mood regulator or life stimulant? Or is it some kind of melancholy you’re facing? Maybe you’re trained yourself to depend on it. That’s some kind of strong attachment, person addiction, something greater stronger than yourself!! Or maybe, one’s life is somewhat dull so one escapes to fantasy land with LO.
On NC not helping forget LO, I agree, but what else is there to do?
For you as well as forme, it’s that there was no closure, as well as for everyone else that is not reciprocated or have unrequited love. And it lingers more if one doesn’t let go of the fantasy. One doesn’t want to
stop it, it’s a panacea. It has consequences on our mental and physical health, for the hurts of the mind weep through the body…
There was a time, the first ten months of experiencing limerence, I felt very melancholic and life was joyless without having LO , nothing was pleasant to me anymore. It’s a bad place to be! Fortunately , the awful thoughts suddenly receded and I recovered some of my executive brain. For I was in ‘pilot mode’ all ten months . I say, the monster let go of me… or I might have gone mad. Thanks God! I’m not out of the woods yet, but the bad days are less now. Don’t think I’ll ever forget this terrible/sweet /sour ride, it’s so ingrained in my
mind, impossible to not remember it from now on.
I’m glad you have a daughter and a hobby. Some expensive hobby that is. What are you building , a Cessna ? I had a bf with a plane, but his mother told me not to go with him on the plane because he was a careless flyer and she was terrified every time he went on that plane. One time he landed on a highway in Florida because he was running out of gas! I don’t care for risky adventures… I’m a 🐔 chicken!
Here’s a good blog to read:
“Why can’t I get over my first love”
July 31/21
Have a great afternoon.
ABCD says
Hello friends. As we all navigate through our LEs, I seek your advice on two issues that have been on my mind for some time.
i) How to react better to LO cold behavior. It happens that we may generally feel low after a “cold” LO interaction. Perhaps LO does not greet us or ignores us. Of course, this may be our perception of the situation. Either way, this leads to feeling low, in my case, for a couple of days. The good thing is that the mind starts to feel better, till the next such interaction, atleast. So, what’s the best way to handle these post cold interaction blues?
ii) How to not feel jealous over LO. I tend to get jealous when LO chats warmly or jokes with someone else in front of me. I know its wrong for me to think like this, but it creeps up eventually, again leading to the blues.
Both these scenarios can be solved by being NC or LC, but that is not happening. Would really be thankful for advice on how I can handle the above situations better. Thanks in advance!
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
I‘m sure there are some short-term solutions like distracting etc, but to solve both problems you should move LO to another place in your mind.
Her cold behavior can only control your mood when your mood is dependent on her, and jealousy can only hit when she seems to belong to you in a certain way.
I know it’s easy to write stuff like that, and managing to solve that would most probably mean managing to get rid of limerence.
But to work on not being dependent on her for mood regulation and to realize that she doesn’t play a role in your life where you could be jealous of anything, is the only thing that can solve it, no?
Not sure as always, if I‘m the person to dole out advice though.
I feel with you on both problems.
ABCD says
Thanks Mila. Yes, what you said is true – I am using her for validation, and she does not belong to me also. This is the very crux of it. Now, to make my mind believe this 🙂 . Jokes apart, yes, I do need to reinforce these point to myself periodically. Thanks again!
Speedwagon says
I wish I had some great wisdom on this for you but it never worked for me. My LOs behavior never met my expectations. Her indifference towards me always seem to eventually come through and I would feel hurt and let down. I could never settle in to just going with the flow with her.
I am now in the middle of a pretty strict LC strategy, mainly to try to stop the ruminations over our personal interactions. I effectively have no personal relationship with LO at the moment though we interact a few times a day over work things. But I have accepted I can’t be a friend to her at really any level.
I can’t say it’s easy, I feel heartache and grief a lot of the time, but it does help a lot with the ruminations which is my main issue.
I wish you well. It’s damn hard and I’m not feeling so positive at the moment.
ABCD says
Thanks Speedy. Our situations are pretty similar in that we both need to interact with LO on a regular basis. I can relate to the low feeling that you must feel post your LO meetings, I got the same situation going on over here. Your advice of keeping it strictly professional makes sense. In my case, it gets harder as LO will say playful things that gets my rumination activated. I mean, if she would not talk to me or speak professionally, then it would hurt in the short term, but reduce the ruminating. In any case, need to be strong to wade through this. I wish you lots of strength as you go through your LE Speedy.
Speedwagon says
If your LO is outgoing and initiates a lot, I can understand how that can be tough. My LO is quite introverted and a touch socially awkward. She will rarely initiate with me so it’s really up to me whether we interact much or not. If I do initiate I can really get her talking and she can be really engaging and fun. But then I expect reciprocal initiation and personal interest in me on her part and it never really happens. I like 50-50 effort/ interest in my personal relationships which is why I get along so well with this other woman in my office that I have become good friends with.
Speedwagon says
Lol…quick update for today. I gave in and initiated some light personal banter with LO today. It’s so weird, I can initiate conversation and her face will light up and she can be very in the moment with me. It can seem like she is so interested in all I have to say with tons of smiles and eye contact and full attention. Felt quite that way this morning after about 2 weeks of not talking anything but immediate work stuff. Sometimes it feels better just to get that need for slight connection out of my system, but I need to be careful since I broke the ice, not to ramp up the interactions. Best to go back to detaching for a while.
What a funny game LE management can be.
Bewitched says
Dear ABCD,
I’d like to offer my perspective (it may not be useful, and I really do not want to make things worse, but here goes).
You said before that you caught the glimmer from your LO because she gave you lots of special attention. Also she has a friendly and warm personality and she complements your more shy and quiet personality. You have also been trying to manage your limerence by not initiating contact.
I think that it is very possible that she has noticed this withdrawal on your part, has been slightly hurt by it and has decided to give you a little more cooler response than usual.
In addition / alternatively, you mentioned some tension – it is highly possible that if there is tension between your LO and your SO, this is potentially linked to you (somehow) and your LO is cooling off because she does not want to cause issues in your marriage.
The reason I am suggesting all of this is that I personally find that rationalising my LO’s behaviour helps me. When I can see why he is behaving a certain way, I don’t take it so personally. This also applies to the feelings of jealousy. Maybe try telling yourself that there are several rational possibilities 1) she wants to make me jealous, 2) she doesn’t want to upset my LO and is giving me a wide berth, 3) she is spreading her attention to other men to distract from the focus on me, or even, 4) she has become sick of our dynamic, 5) she is a little bit of a flirt and slightly less attractive to me because of it, etc.
I have experienced a pang of jealousy myself once or twice but always thought it was an opportunity to get over my LO, because if I saw him flirting with another woman, I think I would instantly lose interest in him. If I look deep into my own heart, I know that this LE is all about having the validation of his attention and if that goes away (or is displaced), he’s almost outlived his usefulness. Shocking, isn’t it?! This is me being deliberately harsh so as to get over him. I have also been looking at unflattering photographs of him. And its working. Not devaluing him, just taking him down off that pedestal.
Possibly what you are experiencing is classic push and pull dynamics when there is a mutual attraction but its not viable due to non availability of both of you. Could you use this sensation of jealousy in your favour, somehow?
The reason I said that I hope not to make things worse is that I don’t want to encourage you by suggesting that your LO is ‘into you’, even if she is. One of the great unsolved mysteries of the universe is “whether LO is into me” and none of us here are ever, (ever), going to solve this question, to our satisfaction anyway.
Wishing you lots of positive thoughts, ABCD.
ABCD says
Hello Bewitched. Thanks a lot for your detailed response. Wow, your reasons for jealousy are so comprehensive. Perhaps, they are all true!
You are right – rationalising LO behavior is helpful, as it may explain some of their actions.
If I were to asses the situation as objectively as I can, I would say that we are mutually limerent, and cannot do anything because of the natural barriers. So, in that sense, it does not really matter whether we are into each other – right, as the end result seems to be that we are not acting on our thoughts.
Will work on trying to be more stoic, and weathering through this, focusing on the ground reality, and not the “perceived” one. I am feeling a bit better today, due to nc since last interaction. Lets see how the next one plays out.
Nisor says
ABCD, hi
We call Speedwagon and LIS to the rescue ‘operation’!
There’s not much you can do to stop the blues of the lows. Do you do some crying over these things? LIS has cried a river over his LO, and he’s reciprocated! So has Speedwagon. There’s no pills for this ‘limerence ailment’, unfortunately. I think you have to convince yourself that you have no entitlement over LO, she’s not yours to control her behavior , she’s free to do as she pleases, ouch, that hurts. What a mind teaser this limerence can be! Like the Wizard of Oz, said: “ hearts are not practical unless they are made unbreakable “.
Not being able to go full NC is a killer, you need to get strength where there’s none. So courage is all I can say, not much help from me… so sorry. Hugs
Lost in Space says
Nisor calls, I answer… I’ve been thinking a lot lately about some of the principles of stoicism, in particular the idea of doing my best in everything that I can control and letting go of everything I can’t control… or in other words focusing all my energy and attention on the process rather than worrying about the outcomes, knowing that if I pay attention to process and do my best as often as possible, then most of the time the outcomes will be alright and when they’re not, I can live with it because I know I did my best. Also remembering that life is long and some seeds I plant today might not grow for a long time but the planting still matters and eventually they’ll bear fruit, or sometimes the seeds never do sprout but I can plant new seeds, the important thing is to just keep trying and some stuff won’t really pay off but a lot of other stuff will so it’s all good…
Applying this to my relationship and interactions with LO, I’m trying to just focus on what I do and not on how she responds. I can control how I act towards her – I can be kind and compassionate and caring and always try to do the right thing for her. And that’s all I can do! I can’t control her responses, nor would I want to (how boring would life be then!). Some times she’ll be warm towards me, sometimes she’ll be withdrawn or cold – I can’t control that. I can seek to understand her reactions, but I can’t control them, and anytime I try it just brings me pain and misery…. But if I know that my actions toward her were good, then I don’t have anything to feel bad about. And then I can think about my next actions. If she’s being warm and friendly, I can be warm and friendly back and enjoy positive interactions while being diligent about not crossing lines I don’t intend to cross. When she’s being cold and withdrawn, I can give her space and not act desperate/anxious/needy and just focus on doing other things… like last week she was avoiding me all week and I actually just mostly forgot about her and worked on a bunch of cool projects I’ve been thinking about for awhile and got a bunch of good stuff done. And sometimes I did think about her and wondered (like I always do when she withdraws) if she’d ever come back to me or if this was the final withdrawal, and I actually felt pretty much at peace with it either way, like I’ve been feeling that if she did decide to end things for good, I would always feel good about how I treated her and acted toward her from the start of our relationship to the finish and I could always look back on this time in my life and feel ok about it. And of course I’d rather continue a relationship with her and enjoy our talks and of course I miss her when we’re not talking, but that’s not really in my control so I have to just let it go.
I was thinking the other day that “everything matters, and also nothing matters”, I don’t know where that phrase popped into my head but it’s been bouncing around in there for the last few days. It’s like, every little thing I do might have effects on other people and the world that I can’t even begin to understand right now, so I should always try to do my best at everything, whether it’s some routine task at work or helping SO with the chores at home or giving guidance to my kids or saying some encouraging words to LO when she’s down, all of that matters! And in the moment I’m doing it, it’s the only thing that matters. But at the same time… most of what I spend all my time worrying and stressing about now won’t really matter at all in a year, and none of it will matter in 100 years when we’re all dead and gone, so really why get too stressed about little things like why LO hasn’t texted me back in 4 days because by this time next year, a million other things will have happened in my life and I won’t care at all that LO treated me coldly from March 20th to March 25th 2024 or whatever…
Or another little example from my marriage this week – I pretty much spent the whole weekend putting in work at home while SO laid on the couch watching tv and playing on her phone totally checked out.. I took care of the kids all weekend while also tidying up the yard, doing all the laundry, washing the dishes, cleaning the bathrooms and the kitchen, sweeping the floors, and cooking the meals, and pretty much all I got for feedback was some complaints about part of the dinner that SO didn’t like and not a word of thanks for anything else. And I was feeling pretty grumpy on Sunday evening, but then I was like “why am I feeling grumpy? I enjoyed spending time outside in the yard, I had some fun times with the kids, I actually really enjoyed eating the dinner I cooked, I like how the house looks all clean and tidy, and I tired myself out good so I’ll sleep well tonight. Why’s it really matter what anyone else says or didn’t say, I’m happy with my own actions today and that’s good enough!”
So that’s what I’ve been thinking about lately – just try to do good things whenever possible and then just let it go and watch the results with almost a detached sense of curiosity rather than a burning need for control. Certainly a lot easier said than done much of the time, but I think it’s a principle worth working on and striving for.
Mila says
Hi LiS,
I love these thoughts.
I will think about them and maybe they are the way for me too.
While I don’t think I want to develop a „detached sense of curiosity“ because I fear that it would mean I get detached from loved ones in other emotional areas too, something more stable and staying with myself instead expecting others to behave in a certain way sounds like a solution for many things.
Thanks for the insightful post!
Mila says
Also, LiS,
I was thinking about your SO on the weekend.
Maybe she‘s home more than you during the week and does work around the house, and on the weekends she needs a break from that, and while your way of relaxing is activity, her way of relaxing is lying on the couch and doing nothing.
I just want to say that it’s also good to keep in mind that people are differently wired and one cannot blame someone to act differently from how oneself would act in the same situation.
ABCD says
Thanks for the very useful post, LiS.
“If she’s being warm and friendly, I can be warm and friendly back and enjoy positive interactions while being diligent about not crossing lines I don’t intend to cross. When she’s being cold and withdrawn, I can give her space and not act desperate/anxious/needy and just focus on doing other things… like last week she was avoiding me all week and I actually just mostly forgot about her and worked on a bunch of cool projects I’ve been thinking about for awhile and got a bunch of good stuff done”.
This is golden, and is something that I will definitely keep in my mind. In fact, your principle of doing what one can, and not worrying about the consequences has its roots in eastern philosophy as well. We can only do what’s in our control – right? What’s not in our control – what can we do about that?
As you said, implementing this principle is not easy, but is definitely worth striving form, as it can allow us to be more at peace with ourselves.
Nisor says
Hi LIS,
I like your post, it’s wonderful and inspiring. Keep up the good work. Time teaches us all how certain things cannot be changed, instead ,time brings us to realize that it is us who have to change. Time cures all, eventually , we learn the lessons, the school of life is the best teacher.
I see, with a smile , that you keep exact records of days LO is indifferent… ha!
…”why get too stressed about little things like why LO hasn’t texted me back in 4 days.” Or …and I won’t care at all that LO treated me coldly from March 20th to March 25th or whatever…”
You’re so cute, I wish my LO were like you when it comes to details. I have trouble keeping dates and times if I don’t purposefully write them down. Like for instance, I don’t remember the exact month we met or the month of the break up . BUT I recalled every single word we said! I remember conversations at different points in the relationship of three years as if it was yesterday. The place, the colors, what I was wearing etc. Strange, isn’t it?
I’m so sorry SO didn’t even thanked you for all the work you did home. You must’ve been exhausted by night time! No wonder you’re feeling grumpy. But your attitude was correct on feeling good about it. No acknowledgment by SO of your input feels bad. You’ll be surprised the impact a little things like “thank you” has on a person’s heart or mind. It gives one incentive to do it again. These are the little details that get lost in a long term relationship. One is taken for granted and politeness disappears . My SO is very polite and always says ‘please and thank you’ when asking for something or when I do something for him. I’m the grumpy one …
Wishing you all the best . Hugs
Bewitched says
Awesome post Lost in Space!
I had been about to add post script to ABCD which was this: I think that limerence is very selfish. Mutual limerence is mutually selfish. We think that we are interested in the other person, but really, we are only interested in our fantasy of them and what that say about or does for us! This helps me get over my (mutually limerent?) LO because we are both just being selfish in indulging this.
Now you come along with a very unselfish view and ruin my hypothesis! Haha.
Well, maybe its different when there is a ‘real’ friendship there and you actually know the other person very well. Like you, LiS, and Mila, and maybe a few others of us here.
Whereas, I get the feeling that it might be different for ABCD and myself. We do not know our LOs very well and have built up a fantasy person out of them for our own (selfish) means?
Lost in Space says
Bewitched: “Now you come along with a very unselfish view and ruin my hypothesis! Haha.”
I wouldn’t actually say that I’m unselfish. I want lots of stuff for myself… I want to be happy. I want to feel at peace. I want to avoid anxiety and heartbreak and pain. I want to feel fulfilled. I want to be stimulated and do interesting things and learn cool things and have adventures. I want SO to like me and love me and respect me and treat me kindly. I also want LO to like me and love me and respect me and treat me kindly. That’s actually pretty selfish to want 2 women to love me, right?!?
But I think what I’m trying to work on is really understanding that the best way to have all the things I want for myself is to stop trying for all those things and stop worrying about all those things, and just focus on the things that are in my immediate control and being present in the moment and being the best person I can and doing the best I can in whatever moment I find myself in, and then trust that everything’s going to turn out the way it should… and I know that if I work hard and do good things, then most outcomes will turn out in a way that make me happy and sometimes they won’t but that’s ok too because there’s always tomorrow and more chances to do new things and experience new things.
I’m trying to work on gratitude and feeling thankful for all the good things in my life. And I think that a big part of that is trying to eliminate expectations, or at least to uncouple actions from expectations. I think that if I do things expecting a certain result, then I eliminate the opportunity for gratitude. If I get the thing I expect, then I don’t feel gratitude because I feel like I just got what I deserved, and if I don’t get the thing I expected then I feel resentment. On the other hand, if I just do the right thing simply for the sake of doing the right thing and don’t expect anything back, then the possible outcomes are that I don’t get anything back and that’s fine because I wasn’t expecting anything anyways, or I do get something back and I then feel gratitude because I wasn’t expecting it and it feels like a gift.
So like yesterday for example, I did something nice for LO that was helpful for her. And I told myself that I don’t expect anything from her in return, that I enjoyed doing this thing for her, it felt good to do it for her, and the pleasure I took from doing it for her is the only reward I need and the only reward I expect. And that’s a good place to be! Because then if she’s in avoidant mode and I don’t hear anything back from her, that’s totally fine because I already got my reward just from doing the act of service. And if she does respond and expresses her thanks or shows me some extra warmth, then I can feel grateful for it because I wasn’t expecting it or demanding it and it’s just a nice little gift I received from her (she did end up sending me a thank you text later in the day and had a couple moments of warm banter before she went home for the evening).
I also really like the idea of planting good seeds and watering them and then just having faith that at least some of them will grow and bear good fruit at some time in the future… but not just sitting there every day watching the soil to see if the seeds are starting to sprout, agonizing every day about whether they’ll grow or not, feeling anxiety and despair every day they don’t…
When I was talking to LO yesterday, she told me that she’s been feeling pretty good recently, pretty calm and at peace with herself, in particular she’s felt comfortable being alone with herself for long periods of time because she’s just felt better about herself, which is really good for her because she hasn’t been feeling the constant push-pull of resenting her SO when he’s around but feeling lonely and empty when he’s away. And I know a lot of it is the work she’s been doing on herself, but I think it’s fair to say that some of it also has to do with the last couple years of me consistently being loving and caring and affirming to her and always trying to support her and build her up… so that was nice to hear and felt like a nice little thing for me to be grateful for.
ABCD says
Hi LiS. I forgot to talk about this in my last post to you. Its great that you helped around the house and did the bunch of stuff. I am sure you would have felt good about it. Good job!
Bewitched says
Hi LiS,
Thank you for expanding on your ideas. It is certainly food for thought. To be honest, the reason it resonates so much is because I have felt in the past very similarly towards my LO and life in general. I have been very stoic and calm and adopting ‘what will be, will be’ mindset. I also remember posting to Frederico, at one point, that all the love I feel for my LO and my SO is doing me good because it’s helping me connect with my softer side. And I was certainly not expecting anything in return for that at the time when I wrote it. But my mind is quite slippery. If I look back now with a critical eye, I have to question whether this feeling was really only possible when I had enough objective evidence of LO’s affections to be able to be so calm (if you know what I mean). In addition, I am always sure of SO’s affections. So when we feel secure, it is quite easy to be stoic. Is this feeling of security from people who are important to us part of the solution?
I recall that you also had a lot of validation of your importance in LO’s life quite recently as you two had a ‘big chat’ (or three!).
The bible says “You reap what you sow”, which in the superficial sense is unhelpful here. It is better to give and not have any expectations of receiving back, of ‘reaping’ back from those kind and selfless acts.
I prefer the analogy of planting seeds, as you said
” also really like the idea of planting good seeds and watering them and then just having faith that at least some of them will grow and bear good fruit at some time in the future… but not just sitting there every day watching the soil to see if the seeds are starting to sprout, agonizing every day about whether they’ll grow or not, feeling anxiety and despair every day they don’t… ”
Yes, that is true. And some days, when we feel secure, it probably easier to put it into practice. The challenge is to keep on maintaining it as a mantra, and to ride it out when things go wrong.
Mila says
Bewitched,
„So when we feel secure, it is quite easy to be stoic“
Thanks for that post. In limerence it’s so difficult to know if what you are feeling is genuine or biased, one stumbles from one illusion to the next.
Bewitched says
Thanks Mila.
I am going through a real analytical phase at the moment. Its helping me to remain quite neutral and I think it is giving me a good perspective. Perspective is everything, for me, because I lose perspective when exposed to my LO. He makes me lose my mind. But with some time away from him, the perspective magically reappears after a few weeks ….(we have had no common work stuff recently)
This ability to be stoic and calm despite everything LO does (as well as everything that SO does or does not do) is a great solution. Its a very sweet way of relying more or intrinsic beliefs and one’s own character for one’s self worth – rather than on extrinsic stimuli or external realities’ (which may not be realities at all, but more a matter of perception)
I am looking forward to lots of chocolate over Easter. And I hope you also let yourself off the leash, Mila!
Mila says
Bewitched,
what leash? I‘m completely off the leash!😂
Even considered asking Dr L again for a post about the relation between limerence and sweets-addiction…Including alcohol and coffee, maybe…
These last two I managed to quit for a while, but I‘m still on the upper limit of my tolerated weight (tolerated by myself, I mean), which would be ok if it would be through healthy food, but no. That makes me a bit cranky.
Of course it doesn’t help that LO and me are on low contact- I know it was the plan and it seems we both had the same plan, but it‘s a bit bleak, and I have to stop myself from the usual stuff- wondering why he is on low contact, if it’s for the same reason as me (he needs this time and space with his family)or if he thinks I don’t like him that much (having responded a bit awkwardly on his nice text before he went on the trip)…
Anyway, I do know that it’s all for the best and still won’t initiate any contact.
I like your analytic phase, keep posting your thoughts, especially as I‘m in a lethargic state and not capable of own thoughts.
There’s a family event coming up for me including a trip, it’s bound to be distracting, I just hope it all goes well and no fights or old grudges cropping up…
Wish you all happy Easter holidays!
Imho says
Hi Bewitched, check you being all in control with perspective and philosophical! Liking all this. The reduced contact indeed brings normal and calm as well as some lows. Glad it’s going well, I’m taking notes !
I resisted making contact with LO today. (It’s pathetic to admit these stupid wins, isn’t it)
Hell, why should I always be the one to initiate – was my mantra today !
LO was showing lots of online availability all day on 2 platforms, which of course I read as LOs invitation “Imho, here I am available, please contact me, ask me how I am, ask about my weekend plans etc”
Not today. Maybe next week.
Bewitched says
Hey Imho & Mila!
Delaying tactics are good, Imho. I have delayed things many times and its amazing how the urge to reach out can just dissipate (for a while, anyway). And Easter is like Christmas all over again because its an invitation to reach out to LO and ask about their plans. I never reached out to my LO at Christmas and I plan on maintaining that over Easter. But gosh, if I look back at the Christmas LwL posts, there were a lot of them from me. Even on Christmas Day (😭). But if it helps to post on LwL instead of reaching out to LO, then I am prepared to do it no matter how sad that seems!!
I wish you both all the best for the coming weekend and I expect that I shall be posting here quite a bit – as therapy. Now is maybe not the time to give up chocolate Mila… but if you like sweet things, maybe wean yourself onto sweet veg like sweet red peppers or carrots or peas. I have managed to do this and it works a treat.
X
Nisor says
@Bewitched
“In addition I am always sure of SO’s affections. So when we feel secure, it is quite easy to be stoic. Is the feeling of security from people who are important to us part of the solution?”
You bet! One feels more secure when there are two handling a situation or a problem; or when we have someone to fall back on. No question about it.
I was very decisive when I had to break up with bf/Lo in spite of loving him so much, but I had to move on. And I did, felt like a victory over my feelings. But, I had the support of a very good friend. If I were alone I don’t think I could have done it . She didn’t have to do anything, but her presence was enough to encourage me. We had a ball going to the opera, Broadway shows, ballets, museums etc; things I didn’t do with LO. I loved him a lot but he was boring, not too much action. And I couldn’t do these things because he was jealous even of my friends, and I didn’t want him to be upset with me. I didn’t fight for my rights, so I kept quiet, but the pot was boiling…
With the LE, I’m happy I have SO waiting to hold me and give me strength under any circumstances,(even though he doesn’t know) he adores me. I’m grateful for his care and love. I have been a faithful wife all the days since we got together. He calls me the princess!
Have a great weekend. I’m going away to the shores for a few days.
Bewitched says
Dear Nisor,
This sounds really nice and I totally understand why you left your bf/LO at the time:
“We had a ball going to the opera, Broadway shows, ballets, museums etc; things I didn’t do with LO. I loved him a lot but he was boring, not too much action. And I couldn’t do these things because he was jealous even of my friends, and I didn’t want him to be upset with me. I didn’t fight for my rights, so I kept quiet, but the pot was boiling…”
You do seem like such an adventurous sort, I cannot imagine you being able to survive with an LO who was not go-getting and with that sense of adventure. It seems you needed something that he couldn’t give you?
I also broke up with someone I loved dearly when I was younger. He gave me a lot of security and we laughed and laughed so much. But we ended up being more like friends than lovers, so, as painful as it was to break up with him, I was able to move forward without too much regret. It took me another 4 or 5 years to meet someone good, stable, as well as ticking the boxes that I needed for my ‘romantic archetype’. I actually still see that old SO from time to time and have never regretted moving on.
I am actually scared to have a dream that shakes me out of my happy complacency, like you did, though. That must have been some dream! Do you still replay it? No need to answer, I am just wondering aloud.
Have a wonderful few days away with the family. I hope the weather is kind. Happy Easter!
Mila says
Hi Bewitched and Imho,
I started a post three times and deleted it. I‘m somehow very indecisive what I think about what’s the best way to behave.
I think you are of course right in delaying contact, but me, I had a bit too often the experience that fighting and forcing myself, or counting how often he initiated contact and how often me etc., made me feel bad and let me ruminate much more, and didn’t really help. When I didn’t fight and just texted I could forget about it much faster.
But that might apply to my special case of limerence for a friend, where texting is anyway a normal occurrence.
It’s probably also a dangerous thing to tell limerents.
And yes, Imho,when he‘s online so much, he could text you, too. I often had this feeling of LOs parading around in front of me waiting for me to initiate something, but never being proactive themselves, too risky for them-let me do all the work…
Me,I‘m not in a good mood because of low contact(and because of my too tight trousers as a result of eating as a replacement for also contact or whatever – put on only 2 kilo max, but I hate that) but just know that I won’t contact him.
It’s a bit of a weird atmosphere,for me at least, but I can’t help it. I‘ve somehow got the feeling I shouldn’t text him so I don’t.
Bewitched, post away over Easter, I love reading your posts!
I wish you both happy Easter days and everybody else too!
Mila says
*meant „LO contact“, not „also contact“
Imho says
Hi Bewitched, Mila, thanks !
I started a response but can’t finish it as I’m out, so will post tomorrow morning on a new post, as the scrolling is too much on this one, for me at least.
P.S. Mila wrote: “I started a post three times and deleted it.” I’m sure many of us on LwL do this often.
Nisor says
ABCD, hi
I’m concerned over your situation. I think, since there’s nothing you can do about it, you should be thinking of ways to fill your mind with nuggets of wisdom and stoicism. This also goes for Speedwagon and LIS. Here’s a video, for surely will give you insight into the mind …
“13 Lessons on how walking away is your greatest Power/ Marcus Aurelius Stoicism “
Site : Stoic Realms
Sorry but I don’t know how to send the link. So you look it up. It’s relaxing and soothing to hear this man’s voice. At least it will take your mind away from thinking so much abt LO. And think of more important things in life.
All the best to you all. You’re not alone!
ABCD says
Thanks Nisor. Will check out the video.
ABCD says
Thanks for the tough love, Nisor. Yes its true – I do not have entitlement over LO, and I cannot control her behavior. As MJ mentioned in one of his earlier posts – if you’re going through hell, keep going, so that’s the plan. Appreciate it.
Beth 2 says
Hi everyone. It’s been a while since I checked in. Had my surgery and recovery has been rough but I have great prognosis so very thankful for that. All of this has really been sobering and making me want to get rid of LE. It’s been over 3 months since we talked and now that he’s left the job it is really starting to feel like he won’t contact me again. I’m mostly at peace with that. I got rid of his number to prevent me from contacting him. Still connected on social media and have an occasional like or comment here or there. That’s because of some mutual friends and questions it might raise.
I have to say that low/no contact works but it took so much time. If I think about LO it I can dredge it up so I’m trying very hard to redirect my thoughts when tempted to do that. Also reading too much about limerence or others stories can trigger me.
I am embarrassed and feel guilty over what I wrote on here about LO. When you’re caught up in it, it feels so real and painful and you can’t imagine ever getting out. It is a delusion in a way. At least for me it was.
I look at a picture of LO online now and think there’s nothing that special about this person. It was all in my mind and I never want to go through this again. With Jesus’s help I will continue to recover and focus on my SO.
Still trying to figure out what living purposefully looks like for me. I was in a huge rut and grieving prior to LE. Are we ever fully cured of this?
Wishing everyone here the best and thanks for all the help. This place and the people are wonderful.
Mila says
Hi Beth2,
I‘m happy for you , it’s so great that surgery went well and prognosis is good! It’s so much more important than any LO.
You got your life back and won’t waste it on limerence again, I guess.
It is a delusion. I wish you the best for further recovery from both surgery and LE!
Beth 2 says
Thanks, Mila. It hasn’t been easy and your position must be super hard because you were friends for a long time before LE. Letting go of it was super painful. I wish you the best as well!
Imho says
Wow Beth!!! So lovely to hear from you! It’s funny I was trying to get off to sleep the other night and name all the people on LwL as a way to get me off to sleep. You know like counting sheep. Your name was there as one of the sheep! I hope you take this as a positive, as genuinely hoping all gone ok with your procedure. So glad to read that you are doing well.
Please don’t be embarrassed about older posts you wrote about your LO. I think and hope that I will be in the same place at some point too. It’s part of the process and it’s anonymous, so all good. Please take strength in what you have achieved in your health and also LE challenges. You’re a real inspiration to many of us, well at least me. My very best wishes to you. I hope this isn’t our last connect btw !!
Beth 2 says
Thanks IMHO! That is super sweet you thought of me. Great to hear from you too! This LE was so painful and still trying to figure out how to avoid another in the future. You will get there! Wishing you the best as well!
ABCD says
Hi Beth2. Really happy to know that your surgery went well. You also seem to be in a better place with regards to your LE. The NC really helps. If you can minimise social media contact also, that’s the icing on the cake.
LO thoughts will pop up in your head form time to time, just acknowledge them, and try to work through them by doing other stuff.
All the best!
Nisor says
Hi Beth2
I’m so glad and thank God you’re recovering well from the surgery. By His tripes we are healed!
Congratulations on your progress on dealing with your LE. It was rough, but it will set you free if you keep trying to expel it from your mind.
You asked: “ Are we ever fully cured from this?”. Time will tell. We have to be strong and make it our business to be successful in this battle. We may relapse , sometimes, but the march forward continues . Ask SO to take good care of you, I’m sure he’ll be willing, sometimes they need to be asked. Remember, they are not mind readers…
Take good care of yourself and be strong . Jesus loves you. Blessings.
Nisor says
@Beth2
Correction: By His stripes we’re healed.
Beth 2 says
Thank you so much Nisor! Not sure if you will see this as I really had to dig to find it again. Yes by His stripes we are healed. Thanks for always being an encouragement!
Nisor says
Hi Beth, I saw your post. How are you doing now? Always have the faith the Lord is with you, He’ll never leave you nor forsake you . Be blessed. Have a great Sunday.
frederico says
Truly delighted see your post, Beth2. Happy that you have had the surgery although so sorry that the recovery has been rough.
I can empathise with every single word and the emotions in the rest of your message.
From the bottom of my heart, I wish you every success in your recovery, particularly because I feel that we are on similar paths.
As for living purposefully, how about living with social distractions for a while, where possible? It’s working for me, for now.
Every good wish,
f x
Beth 2 says
Hi Frederico! Thanks for your well wishes and I wish you the same. I like the idea of social distractions. I really don’t get together enough with others especially lately. Take care and nice to hear from you!
John says
Hi Nisor,
The plane is a kit, similar but way cooler than a Cessna. It helps to keep me sane. Sometimes I use my LO as motivation though.
Yeah, it’s been a long haul I guess. I’d say it lasted so long because I’m incredibly prone to rumination as it is. Spend most of my youth ruminating about being I pilot and most of my adult life ruminating about my LO. I had two now what I’d consider minor LEs. High school with gibberish girl. Then a housemate in college. Both passed when I was no longer around them. Pretty normal for this I guess.
This LE has changed over time. Initially after contact ended, I dreamed about us meeting and falling in love. We’d talked about her dreams, number of children so I had plenty to work with.
Then just meeting her and having realize I was worth it. But now it’s mostly just seeing each other and barely an intro before I fall asleep.
When I allow myself to think I’ll never see her I get incredibly depressed so I use the fantasy as a coping mechanism.
Compound that with my LO being very pretty and just capturing me. It’s not just because she’s my LO either.
I’d say it’s the circumstances with this LO. As I mentioned, she agreed to go out but then went poof. Not because of me as I understand it but we had a common acquaintance who told me where she moved and that’s about it. I was smitten and a bit looney so after a couple month delay finishing my Navy school I headed for my first duty station in Jacksonville.
I wasn’t expecting leave but I found out I was authorized for 10 days and with no planning as I drove south for Tennessee I had the option to go west or east in Louisiana. West to Houston or East to my base. Absolutely no planning. West it was. Upon arriving in Houston I realized I’d made a huge mistake. It was enormous. As I looked up at the buildings towering over me I decided it was time to go. Then the moment that would change my life happened.
A voice from behind me asked, are you in the military. Figured I was dead. I turn and see a well dressed, well built man who looked a bit disheveled. I said yes. You’re not from around here are you. Obvious from my Mass accent. Nope. Why are you here. Being naive I told him exactly why. I knew what kind of car she drove, that it had a key scratch on the door that she had told me about. He’d just been robbed and said if I gave him a ride I could stay with him and his roommate. And so the craziest week in Houston happened.
He tried to delay my search expecting disappointment was in store but after a weekend of going out using his buddies old military ID as a fake ID I finally went out on Sunday to see if I could find her. He’d given me some key info. Both he and his buddy were ex marines.
Anyway, find her I did. I’d returned the fake ID so had to wait. I was nervous as all heck. She walk right by me as she went to get her car I said her name, she turned and looked. Draw dropped and said wait are you doing in Houston. I said, so and so said you were in Houston, I knew what you drove and you owe me a date. Well she could have shot me on the spot but instead she walked right up to me gave me big hug, got my number and said she’d call me. I was out cashing my last paycheck actually expecting she wouldn’t call as it had been a couple days.
She called, left her number. I called back we set up a time to meet for dinner. I told her the whole story. She agreed it should be a movie. Then she asked what next. I said I’d love to see you again and agreed I’d come out for my 21st and so began a year of phone calls and a few trips.
When she told me I could come out for a couple weeks after Iceland I was over the moon. Then the crash.
She never indicated my attention was unwanted. Because of the finding her I was extremely sensitive to the ghosting since it was again a couple months before I could see her which I was pretty much a functional drunk. I decided I had to say bye. I went out for the one last trip and she disarmed me at every turn. Asking me to stay and hang out, gave me an incredible 8×10 photo of a modeling contest she’d one, knew I shouldn’t accept it. Then the it doesn’t have to be good bye was the worst thing she could have told me prior to ghosting me.
I hope you don’t think terribly of me. It is pretty insane.
I just don’t know how to forget that. My SO would never be able to tell. I met her 14 years after me LE started so it’s so much a part of me and my moods. Of late we write it off to just some changes due to my cancer treatment which seems to have really amped up my LE at times, especially around the time of year I got the big let down.
Thanks for listening !
John
Nisor says
@John
“ I hope you don’t think terribly of me. It’s pretty insane.”
I’m an open minded person. But I like discipline also, but also good hearted and understanding . I understand your “craziness “ because I had two brothers, very rambunctious, and a son who almost drove me to the mad house with his early life “risky adventures “ and his love life with fickle girls; oh the loud music and the pining for being lovesick! Could not discipline him, so he joined the USA army. Talking about doing crazy things with friends, ugh! Don’t want to remember! I was a youngster too, but a quiet one. I think men are afraid of women at that early age because we women at that age are fickle and change bf s like changing clothes . It’s really the forming years, one is immature. One is totally unaware of the consequences of ghosting a person, immaturity. But someone pays the price for it. It’s selfishness. But also it’s men’s fault for not opening their mouth on time to say what they want with you, so you know where you stand with them. No guessing. I suppose men are utterly afraid of being rejected , reasonable enough . The battle of the sexes , never getting to understand each other !
So you went the long distance with LO! She seemed to care and showed it to you, what could have made her change her mind? Maybe because you’re away most of the time and she felt lonely? She couldn’t take your absence?
The marines have a very hectic life and scary, aren’t you the first ones to be called to duty in case of war? No wonder when they come back from missions they go wild drinking and all that stuff… The Air Force , the army and the marines say are for sissies . They work from the office except the pilots. The other branches of the armed forces do the dirty work, the interesting and adventurous work for males.
“When I allow myself to think I’ll never see her I get incredibly depressed so I use the fantasy as a coping mechanism.”
Those thoughts haunted me for a long time this past two years, making me cry a lot. Coming to the realization that I’ll never again see LO
makes me very sad, a punch in
my gut feeling. Now, I just don’t want to think of it and have come to accept it. But I did try to work out ways to get to see him. He’s in the USA, I live in Europe. Not a chance in this lifetime.
I enjoy reading your stories very much, as well as others.
Have a great day. Courage!
John says
Hi Nisor,
I shared what I did, going to find her on that first trip, hopefully to provide some context as well as tell the story. Early in our talks you thought it might be good for me to reach out. As you can see my first adventure to go find her could and now probably would be considered something which starts with an S, that I’m obviously very sensitive about as it was not my intent.
She obviously was not troubled by it at the time and her dad was absolutely blown away which still surprises me but I suppose he was a romantic like me. And we were both Navy men, though I didn’t know that until in a moment of weakness I did a little searching and found his obit.
As for my LO, I don’t think anything changed her heart or mind. At best we were friends. If she didn’t know how I felt it’s because she was in denial. I regularly sent flowers, teddy bears which were always on her bed when I visited. Called whenever I could. Gave her my dog tags. And as I’ve said her dad introduced me as being in love with his daughter. You generally don’t drive that far multiple times a year to see someone.
I always finished calls with I love you. She would not return that so I knew I hadn’t won her…yet.
I was as bold and upfront as I’ve ever been. I normally stayed at a hotel when I visited but my last trip before deployment I actually asked to stay with her. I can’t even imagine having that courage now! Did I actually love her? I’m not sure I really know what that is. Is it the fire I felt for her or the stable mundane safety I have with my SO? Somewhere in between?
The one word she never said was no, I would have respected that.
When I did stay with her it was pretty awesome. She and her dad had bought a race car together and he was going to drive it but was talking about me driving it when I got back to the states. There was just so much excitement around everything and meeting more of her family. I played your in my heart by rod stewart one night to try and convey my feelings even more. This is all in the story I wrote.
I did make one call after her SO told me to stop calling. Had my division officer, the one who delivered the flowers, call and ask for her dad.
So I spoke with him briefly. He only said, She’s made her choice and I’ve got to support that. I asked if he thought we still be friends. He said absolutely and that she was loyal.
I am incredibly concerned now about the duration of my LE. I was relieved to hear yours was longer. Maybe I’m not quite as crazy as I thought. To find that yours was not active like mine makes me wonder am I the most pathological case of this? Yikes!!! It’s so much a part of me after all the years I don’t know if I can let it go. It was such a great story with a sad ending.
I do believe it would have ended sooner if she hadn’t convinced me to stay for the whole weekend or accepted the goodbye. Playing that song sure didn’t help. At times I think she meant it, at times I don’t know. I’ve no doubt someone who didn’t know me like her SO could cast me as a creep and turn her against me. I think that is one of the reasons I really would love to see her but of course if I sought her out it’s a bit of a catch 22.
I have tried to limit triggers that make things worse, mostly certain types of music.
As always thanks for listening. It helps to share.
Kindly,
John
John says
Hi Nisor,
Thanks for the read on first love BTW. It was very interesting. Not sure that’s what got me though. I think it might have been initially but as I’ve mentioned I think I knew it wasn’t mutual. Hmmm.
John
Nisor says
@John
“I was as bold and upfront as I’ve ever been.”
That, indeed , was bold and courageous for a young man!!! You had confidence alright, sad she dashed your hopes at the end. You’re the classic limerent and she didn’t correspond with the same ardor. She just saw you as a friend. So
many women would have loved to have all that attentions ,time etc, you lavished on LO. Most people don’t get whom or who they want. Many are in unrequited love travails and never again engage in the search for new opportunities to love again. I know of 2 women that never married because of unrequited love.
I don’t know if that’s healthy or not. It’s no good to be alone, specially when one gets older. Though some swear, better alone than in bad company… to each his own.
And, no, my LE was not active, but apparently it was looming somewhere in my brain without my conscious knowledge, because it stroke hard and deep as it came to the surface, and feels it all happened recently. That is: it feels I’m stuck in that time and space! Trying hard to get out of that bubble !
So, you’re concerned about the duration of your LE? Now, it became part of you, deep attachment, and as you say, difficult to let go. I wouldn’t know what to do in your case. Maybe seek help with a therapist to help
sort out your issues. Does it interfere with your daily life to a point you become numb? Or it’s just like a sedative , something you can brush off at will?
That’s would be like a ghost living in your head , I suppose.
I bet, there’s a lot of people out there in the same situation as you, but don’t know what to do or where to go to express their inner feelings. A therapist is the best I can come up with . Maybe it goes well down to childhood trauma, who knows. If I don’t get rid of this LE by myself, I guess I’d have to search for professional help.
“Did I actually love her? I’m not really sure I really know what that is. Is it the fire I felt for her or the stable mundane safety I have with my SO? Somewhere in between?”
Excellent questions. Who can answer them clearly? If you loved her, that’s for you to search in your soul and see what you can come up with. I think you loved her dearly. It’s unrequited love. You never got over the rejection. I don’t know if you grieved over it or bottled it all up like I did. I didn’t grieve the breaking up and moved on being very stoic about it. One has to grieve the loss, as if the person is dead…one needs healing, this is a deep wound of the soul. I think the soul is whipping for justice, loneliness, abandonment?
What is it?
On the question of what is love? This is a good question for my LwL friend SAMMY. I love the way he takes up a subject and dissect it thoroughly. and asking smart questions.
For me love is giving your all completely, without reservations to the person you love: soul, mind, spirit and body. It’s being joyful and happy that that person exists and you want to spend every minute of your life with them. Their joy is your joy, their pain is your pain, and nothing more honest and noble exists for you!
All is needed in a love relationship, the chemistry, the soul intimacy, sex , understanding one another, sharing the same principles and dreams, plans etc.
But, this is a dream that just a few get to have. Most marriages are just agreements to share a life together as peacefully as possible, have a family and children, grow older together.The love stories are just that: love stories…
It’s just for lovers.
I’m writing on the phone and it’s already kicking…
Have a great day.
John says
Hi Nisor,
Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I hope you didn’t think I was minimizing your LE. Not at all and I certainly hope you get through it and achieve happiness.
Your description of her being a ghost in my head is quite accurate. I’ve joked with friends I should charge her rent. As for it affecting me, that varies. Sometimes it’s just thoughts, even scenarios where she’s there and I end up with someone else. Other times its chance meetings. Undoubtedly, it affects my happiness and takes away from enjoying the present but that’s how my brain works anyway. At its worst like now it’s a yearning to see her I know will never happen.
It pleased me that you thought I loved my LO, certainly by your description I’d say that’s how I felt for her and I really haven’t felt it again for anyone since. I’ve definitely felt the glimmer but nothing gets too far.
She is the only woman I’ve ever asked how many kids she wanted and also the only one I’d ever dreamed about having a child with. My daughter wasn’t planned and we’d not even discussed it yet. She’s amazing but not something I had desired specifically.
My LO ( I notice names aren’t used, is that against the rules) had told me about her dream to open horse stables, Sass-C estates. Her last name began with a C. I could picture building those, I love to build things. That’s where I was holding our sleeping baby. Nice dream.
You asked if I grieved. I was destroyed on the initial letdown as it wasn’t even her giving me the news. It was cold and hard. I became Vodkaman in Iceland. You know you’re drinking hard if you get a drinking name in the Navy. It got me a weekend stay in the hospital just in case.
But I accepted the rejection of my love. When I went the last time after I returned it was to say goodbye. It always comes back to this failure of mine.
I really expected to get turned away showing up unannounced but she wasn’t surprised I came. She asked me to stay as I’ve said, played the song, asked my opinion. Then killed me with it doesn’t need to be goodbye, you never know what’s going to happen.
Then to be ghosted. I don’t think I grieved I just hurt so badly to be cast aside and to mean so little after all that I did. In all these years I’ve never developed a really strong friendship that I wasn’t willing to risk losing. Only people from before. I’ve got friends but none as close.
I didn’t date for 5 years after that. I think being alone is fine for the right reasons. I respect those who haven’t let go of past loves as I know I can not give myself 100%.
Therapy is certainly something I may need to consider. I’m a bit of a hypocrite. My daughter is seeing one for stress and social anxiety. My family always seems surprised when I say she gets that from me. I guess I fake the tough guy really well.
There are really only two things I’ve really pushed hard against my lack of confidence. Obviously my LO and flying. Most other things I’ll just avoid.
You gave me a lot to think about regarding my questions of what live is that’s for sure.
Good luck and thank you!
John
Nisor says
@John
I will get to you on this one post in a few days. I’ll be away by sea for a few days. Meanwhile have a nice weekend and stay healthy and strong.
John says
Hopefully out to sea for fun.
Enjoy!
John says
Hope you had a great trip Nisor
Nisor says
Hi John,
Thanks for the post. I did have a good time , we were with friends and enjoyed the company and connection. It was too hot for the season, we have a heat wave and lots of dust from the Sahara. We left home with warm clothes, temperatures were abt 72 degrees F. 20 Celcius and it got to 91 F/33 Celsius! The tourists were swimming and tanning, good weather for them!
I don’t like the high temperatures, 15 to 25 Celsius all year round would be ideal for
me . I left a comment at the end of this thread.
Hope you had a nice Easter weekend.
John says
Hi Nisor,
One interesting observation. I read recently that a man who is friends with a woman will put his arm around her shoulder. If it’s his girlfriend his arm around her waist.
I know I should never look at them but after about 15 years while recovering from my treatment I looked at her pictures and there are 3 of us together. In each one my hand is on her shoulder. I found that fascinating and disappointing.
Have a great day,
John
Nisor says
@John
Look up :
“Triangular theory of Love”
By Psychologist Robert Sternberg
= intimacy, passion, commitment
Can you imagine, trying to figure out what love is a this age? Who could have known! I think the Dr. is right in his theory…
frederico says
“That’s completely understandable, Marcia. Anyone who has the time to read all my comments, let alone has time to decipher their meaning, has my deepest … commiserations”
So very gracious, @Sammy, although there is indeed an element of irony if you scan through some of Marcia and Snow’s recent prolific exchanges…
Snowpheonix says
Frederico,
“although there is indeed an element of irony if you scan through some of Marcia and Snow’s recent prolific exchanges…“
If you wish to elaborate, I’d love to hear your views on this “element of irony” and learn more about paradox of life, particularly of us two straight female limerents.
I read most of your exchanges with Sammy, but unable to comment. For some reasons, I feel I can’t grasp something from you two….
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“I read most of your exchanges with Sammy, but unable to comment. For some reasons, I feel I can’t grasp something from you two….”
You can’t grasp something from Frederico and I? Ah, my dear girl.
Maybe you are missing the joy and wicked, almost conspiratorial sense of humour that often pepper the exchanges of gay men when gay men talk to other gay men? 😉
I think gay men their whole lives carry this deep sense of being outsiders. When a gay man meets another gay man, he meets someone who has shared that lifelong sense of being an outsider, and the outcome is this delightful feeling of “shared outsideness”. It’s like Frederico and I are two members of the same secret society, although we’re never actually met, and we get the in-jokes. 🙂
Let me break it down for you:
Frederico and I think it’s sweet that you and Marcia have become such good friends. Your friendship is sooooooooo disgustingly cute. 😇
We’re just two gay boys enjoying the spectacle of two women friends getting along so famously. We’re afraid the coffeehouse is about to face a hostile takeover from … two brilliant female intellectuals with colour-coordinated wardrobes. We’re feeling outnumbered by Amazon queens who keep popping up out of nowhere. We’re worried there’s not enough sandwiches to go round. 😜
Marcia used to be short and sweet in her comments. But somehow you’re drawing out increasingly lengthy … cough, cough, cough … dare I say “verbose” … responses from her – although Marcia is always refreshingly, unmistakably herself. It’s not a bad thing. It just shows that you and Marcia have connected mentally. 👍
Snowpheonix says
😂😂😂
I noticed, too, that “Marcia used to be short and sweet in her comments. But somehow you’re drawing out increasingly lengthy … cough, cough, cough … dare I say “verbose” … responses from her”…
She’s being “converted” by a daredevil from the East… 🙃
Marcia says
Sammy,
“Marcia used to be short and sweet in her comments. But somehow you’re drawing out increasingly lengthy … cough, cough, cough … dare I say “verbose” … responses from her – although Marcia is always refreshingly, unmistakably herself.”
You’re right. I’m getting verbose. I’m used to Betty Brevity! 🙂
Snowpheonix says
Marcia Sis,
I think you’re getting taller and more sweetly feminine, and making me less and less of a “tomboy”… 🫂
Marcia says
Snow P,
“I think you’re getting taller and more sweetly feminine, and making me less and less of a “tomboy”… 🫂”
I wouldn’t mind being taller. 🙂 I’m actually pretty outwardly feminine. I just have to lean in on my masculine side. I’m on my own. Have to take care of myself. 🙂
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“I’m actually pretty outwardly feminine. I just have to lean in on my masculine side. I’m on my own. Have to take care of myself. 🙂”
Your older posts did not sound very “feminine”…. 💃🏻, neither mine (probably more tomboyish)…😄 I have gradually come to see that our words sometimes did sound like being rocketed out of an amazon jungle… although I personally did not feel much pinch🤏 but this touch of a profound feminine melody….
Marcia says
Marcia,
“Your older posts did not sound very “feminine”….”
Why? Because I’m not sweet and cheerleaderish? 🙂
I meant I look feminine.
Sammy,
I’d like to join your group with Frederico. Maybe I could be an adjunct member. 🙂
Marcia says
That first comment was meant for Snow P. I erroneously wrote it to myself.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“Why? Because I’m not sweet and cheerleaderish? 🙂
I meant I look feminine.”
Our LwL “look” here depends only on our words, our realistic look is up to every ghost’s imagination.
When I first came and innocently scanned some of your older posts, they were brief, energetic, right onto “bony” points like bullets, few “watery” stuff winding through longer passages seen in many male and female posters…. This gave me that mental image — shorter than me, boyish framed, black hair in two pigtails, feisty, in later 20s. The image is still with me, no matter how you describe your realistic look. 👧
Sammy,
If you take Marcia in as your club’s adjunct member, I’d want to join, too. Otherwise, my jealousy would aim its verbal arrows at you. 🏹
Snowpheonix says
The autocorrection’s error: “incidentally”.
Marcia says
Snow,
“This gave me that mental image — shorter than me, boyish framed, black hair in two pigtails, feisty, in later 20s. The image is still with me, no matter how you describe your realistic look. 👧”
I have no problem with this. I’ll take “later 20s.”
I picture you as a petite woman (body frame, not height), small features, with long, shiny black hair. Somewhere in your 30s.
“If you take Marcia in as your club’s adjunct member, I’d want to join, too. Otherwise, my jealousy would aim its verbal arrows at you. 🏹”
If we both get voted in as adjuncts, the four of us will all go out dancing. 🙂
I dance like a former U.S. president. Be warned. 🙂
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“I picture you as a petite woman (body frame, not height), small features, with long, shiny black hair. Somewhere in your 30s.”
I have no problem with your imagination, either.
“If we both get voted in as adjuncts, the four of us will all go out dancing. 🙂”
Absolutely! Dancing until Dawn and then have a light, early breakfast at diner…then go to bed until early afternoon… then luncheon… then watch the sunset…
“I dance like a former U.S. president. Be warned. 🙂”
Who? Superbly dazzling or clumsy? When I dance, I might wake up a dead… 💃🏻
Marcia says
Snow,
“Absolutely! Dancing until Dawn and then have a light, early breakfast at diner…then go to bed until early afternoon… then luncheon… then watch the sunset…”
That sounds perfect!
“I dance like a former U.S. president. Be warned. 🙂”
Who? Superbly dazzling or clumsy? When I dance, I might wake up a dead… 💃🏻”
Clumsy. I’m very clumsy. I can feel the music in my soul. When it moves to my physical body to the point of expression … it translates into flailing. 🙂
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“Absolutely! Dancing until Dawn and then have a light, early breakfast at diner…then go to bed until early afternoon… then luncheon… then watch the sunset…”
“That sounds perfect!”
After the sundown, we co-write, co-direct, and rehearse a comedy or tragedy about limerents in limerence….then with a bit of cocktail, we chat the sun to rise…
“Clumsy. I’m very clumsy. I can feel the music in my soul. When it moves to my physical body to the point of expression … it translates into flailing. 🙂”
Hmmm… Dame sister, have you ever tried Yoga? Any kind? It would make a body very flexible. I never got any training in dancing, but learned Iyengar a while ago and still can put my toes into my mouth or sit half moon easily. When body is flexible, it’s easy for blood and Qi flow internally, thus helping make one in a relaxed/joyful/giddy mood.
Snowpheonix says
Sammy Sammash,
“I’ve been on this site for a few years and he is consistently kind.
Never really known him not to be.
Kind, erudite and verbose!
Sammy Sams: I’m pulling your leg about being verbose! ®”
“Ah, Marcia. You are too, too kind. (That compliment sounds insincere. I borrowed it from an old black-and-white movie about Marie Antoinette. But I mean it sincerely in relation to you).
For the record, I am “verbose”. And I’m a bit “soft in the noggin” at times. And maybe I repeat myself in a vaguely annoying way. If the shoe fits, I wear it. Can’t see any point in denying reality. If something is true, and the hearer doesn’t find it insulting but a charming insight into oneself, then it is not an insult in my book.”
@Sammy
***************
Sammy, “Marcia used to be short and sweet in her comments. But somehow you’re drawing out increasingly lengthy … cough, cough, cough … dare I say “verbose” … responses from her – although Marcia is always refreshingly, unmistakably herself.” You’re right. I’m getting verbose. I’m used to Betty Brevity! “
****************
“Don’t get me wrong – I enjoyed the show. But the whole performance needed more work. There were issues with timing. The lighting wasn’t great.
Marcia did a fine job, though. All her jokes landed – I think the girl is a natural. Hats off to Marcia!”
@Sammy
*******
Ah, the lighting just radiates the LwL stage at a perfect time now… 💡🎙️💡
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
“ That’s completely understandable, Marcia. Anyone who has the time to read all my comments, let alone has time to decipher their meaning, has my deepest … commiserations. “
Now you can feel as much and deep “commiserations” for me as I deserve, since it’s one of few comments, along Marcia’s, that keep my deep melancholy at bay…
Life is so short… and often stressful 😩, or gray…. 🥱, or blue 🌀
Sammy says
“So very gracious, @Sammy, although there is indeed an element of irony if you scan through some of Marcia and Snow’s recent prolific exchanges…”
@Frederico.
Hahaha! You are very kind, Frederico. Thank you… 😇
I just wanted to let Marcia know I know how INFP minds work, and I understand the perfectly healthy desire to skip over extraneous material to get to the good stuff – which really is a very sensible attitude, at any age. (Wish I had that ability at uni. But no, I had to read every single word of the assigned readings). 😜
In school, none of my peers had the faintest clue what I was talking about. Half the teachers didn’t know what I was talking about. Eventually, I began to find pleasure in mystifying people. (If in doubt, use a big word. That’ll throw ’em off the scent!) 😆
If I ever become a famous author, I’ve already worked out what I’m going to say to fans: “Oh, you read my book? I mean, really? You actually read my book? You got through the whole darn thing? All forty-two million pages? Oh, you poor thing! Commiserations! Bless your dear widdle heart! 😁
Oh, and I HAVE noticed Marcia and Snow upping the philosophical ante lately. Not to mention the word count of their exchanges. The very nerve! Anyone would think we were in the midst of a pair of fellow intellectuals!! 😉
Snowpheonix says
“The very nerve! Anyone would think we were in the midst of a pair of fellow intellectuals!! 😉“ — @Sammy
What an acute, gloating self-observation!
A single’s mind 🤯, heart 🫀 and soul 👻 have more time and energy for intellectual banters… 💃🏻🕺🏻
Snowpheonix says
Tuesday evening on my screen is the singleton’s night on LwL 💃🏻🕺🏻👻
Snowpheonix says
Frederica, Sammy,
The difference between my “twin sister”, Marcia, and me ——
1. She wants “sexual/romantic/emotional soul merging” in that order; I “spiritual/emotional/intellectual/sexual merging.
2. She desires LO to grab and offer her body first, then merge her mind and soul ; I care about get LO’s soul and mind prior to the body.
There maybe more points coming 🆙
Marcia says
Snow,
“She wants “sexual/romantic/emotional soul merging” in that order”
There was no specific order. But, yes, don’t hold off on the physical forever. We want to know how that is before we invest too much in the other stuff. 🙂
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
Once a mystery is revealed, the desire might be receded… Poor me! 🥲. I love my desire more than actual desired.
I’m cooking something with Romeo now for his coming birthday… still can’t tell whether he’s straight or gay… 🤔
Marcia says
Snow,
Ask him what kind of music he likes.
Snowpheonix says
What to tell from one’s music taste?
Marcia says
Certain popular bands can help point us to an answer. I’m being a little sarcastic. But a little.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
The old message chain is too long, so I move our sisterly discussions/debates here —
“Hey … a fan is a fan. Just enjoy the compliment. 🙂”
I hate to brag in any fashions, but here is a ghost land, so let my 35% narcissistic nature indulge itself for once, just once — I could have lined up a whole army of fans in a Red Square, but I just did not care about them at all (even if they all sat inside Kennedy Center in DC), unless they were my friends or LOs.
“I wasn’t talking about dangling a bunch of women. I meant that if he prefers younger women but is putting women his own age in the second options category to date only if the younger ones aren’t interested … I would kindly ask him to remove me from the options list. 🙂”
Agree with you here. I’d rather to die alone than being a second in an amorous relationship. I’d remember Great Gabor or Juliette Binoche when I felt lonely. The latter is much more womanly sexy than the former – she’s the only woman in the world with whom I could go to bed….
“Dangling a bunch of women is a separate issue. I can’t really take issue with that unless he’s said we are exclusive and in a relationship.”
When dating a single guy nowadays, it’s very possible to encounter a modern Casanova (vice vista). In that sense, having PA with a married man is even “safer” since he is supposed to deal with only his SO. That’s why I wish I could be a polycule, so I can dance with a few cute dudes at the same time.
“For me, it was some kind sexual/romantic/emotional soul merging. 🙂 Yes, I can hear myself. 🙂
For me, it was, almost always— “spiritual/emotional/intellectual/sexual merging. My mind is more powerful than body; hence, psychosomatic, although a French film-maker lover said to me in Paris after one night stand, “You need an army…” I did not see him for the 2nd time.
”Of course, the men I become limerent for were directly related to the relationship with my parents. One cannot separate limerence from one’s upbringing (in most cases).”
Inevitably! But mine occurred literally right after Dad’s death and Mom’s landing at my door…. So the old history and a new tragedy opened up the old wounds, like a volcano erupt. I slipped into LE head over heal, 9 calm months after I had the initial, quiet and loud Glimmer.
”I meant on a very basic level. Like eating chocolate all day long, despite how delicious it is, is not a healthy choice.”
I did not grow up with a kind of abundance the West has. My parents or Granny or day/week care would not allow any kind of material indulgence. Frugality is a virtue.
“I agree. The only way I didn’t attach is if it was just for a night or two (and not an LO) or if I didn’t really like the guy or wasn’t attracted to him. And then … why bother?
The same here! But one or two night stand with even a half-LO would be highly addictive. That’s what happened with my LO #5 & #6; I sensed/knew they were not “right” for me, but could not walk away or go out with other non-LO guys at the same time.
“I’ve never had that happen. …Only once did I experience transference from one LO to another LO.”
I had smaller transferences between LO#4/SO and LO #5, but the latest one was almost immediate. Interestingly, LO #5 and #7 are same age, from the same cultural background, same profession, the former is more of a lone-wolf, creative, and rebellious; the later more social, confirming, and family orientated; both are insecure, both got a soft knee for women, both could lie and deceive “beautifully” and shamelessly. The former is very incompatible with me; I don’t know the latter enough to tell.
“You’d have to be interested in the person… I think you have to have SOME chemistry. I keep writing that. I just don’t think that it has to be a blazing inferno to start out with. And it might be better if it’s not. You can actually see the person more clearly. It’s a theory. I haven’t tried it out yet. “
I did with Narc #3 and #6, and #5 (half glimmer, I’d say), and slipped into LE with them, which hurt my mind and heart so badly.
“But the people I glimmer for are bad choices.”
Glimmer — the Idiot Cupid, is blind, not a matter of choices. Please do not blame our Unconscious! I still don’t think my LO#1, 4, 5 & 7 are bad men; I think their heart/character is basically decent, but they have issues when dealing with women, perhaps due to their upbringing with their mothers — deduced from their revelations to me.
“I was the same way. I’ve always wanted to do my own thing and join in with the group only when I chose to. I still do, but they won’t let you do that at work! 🙁”
I’m the same way in my private life, and I don’t join any group in reality; LwL is an exception as a “rehab”. Nature of my work gives me a certain amount of autonomy, students’ learning needs and styles, not any boss, would direct my work.
“I meant that it’s unlikely the guy will just fall into your lap and show up at your door, particularly the older you get. It’s harder to meet people organically. You have to get out and join things, be social, etc., if you don’t do the online stuff.”
I know what you mean, but I do not and cannot treat “meeting a guy” as a specific task; I would not go out to do anything with that goal in my head. If I organically meet someone along the way, great; if not, I would not be upset at all!
” Now I am pretty much sure that he has a bf/gf.”
“NOOOO! How do you know? Did you check the other bathroom cabinet? “
No checking upstairs cabinet. He silenced his Cell phone around 8pm on Fri. and Sat. through night, but around 11pm on weekday evenings. A simply deduction learned from LO#5. In the bathroom downstairs, I still don’t see any female stuff at all but more added male stuff, like shaving creams, razors, toothbrushes, towels, as if one person has been added on (by comparison I saw it for the first time)
“Goodness! That sounds challenging! How did it go”
It went so-so. It’s a bunch of unruly/unmotivated kids without demographic diversity. I don’t think I can manage again a classroom of 9-12 graders. The assistant principal recommend that I “command” them more because they need it; I can’t even command myself! I told LO, who cheered up last evening, that I will not take this job whether offered or not. I’m not desperate financially.
I have a part-time “offer” from another college, which depends on classes’ enrollment.
Marcia says
Snow P,
” unless they were my friends or LOs.”
I guess that’s another difference between us. If a guy approached me and was friendly, I was flattered, even if I wasn’t interested. (I don’t mean a creeper or someone leering at me.)
“The latter is much more womanly sexy than the former – she’s the only woman in the world with whom I could go to bed….”
I like Juliette Binoche, too. A great actress and very elegant and sexy in a kind of restrained, mysterious way. French sexuality is so much more subtle than American sexuality. And French women retain that sexiness well into older age.
But I’d pick Angelina Jolie if I was going to go that route. She seems like she knows what she’s doing. 🙂
” In that sense, having PA with a married man is even “safer” since he is supposed to deal with only his SO.”
I guess, although a married dude could have several women on the side who he’s having a PA with. You’re not always the only one besides the SO.
“although a French film-maker lover said to me in Paris after one night stand, “You need an army…” I did not see him for the 2nd time.”
LOL. I need three guys. One for physical, one for emotional and one for intellectual. 🙂
“But mine occurred literally right after Dad’s death and Mom’s landing at my door…. ”
Yes, both very difficult events. Probably more so the later as you feel ambivalent about her ?
“Frugality is a virtue.”
I didn’t mean you’re spending a lot of money. Just that you’re eating store-bought candy bars all as opposed to something healthy.
” But one or two night stand with even a half-LO would be highly addictive.”
Yes. One night with even a crush … and you get attached and addicted.
“the former is more of a lone-wolf, creative, and rebellious;”
He sounds like my type. 🙂
“I still don’t think my LO#1, 4, 5 & 7 are bad men; I think their heart/character is basically decent”
I don’t know if I’d call mine decent. Depends on which one. But they were bad for me. Bad for a good, long-term partnerships.
“I know what you mean, but I do not and cannot treat “meeting a guy” as a specific task; I would not go out to do anything with that goal in my head. ”
I agree. I wouldn’t join a group with the goal of “meeting a guy.” I’ve been in groups in which it was obvious certain men had joined to meet women, and it was icky and obvious. But … in order to meet people, you do have to get out and about. But the goal should be to meet people, in general. To interact, to have good conversation. And if you happen to meet a guy, that’s fine. If you don’t, that’s ok, too.
“No checking upstairs cabinet. He silenced his Cell phone around 8pm on Fri. and Sat. through night, but around 11pm on weekday evenings. A simply deduction learned from LO#5.”
I’m not sure what you mean. He had his phone turned off at night? What time of the day do you tutor him?
” I can’t even command myself!”
I’m the same way. I dislike telling other people what to do.
“I’m not desperate financially.”
That’s good.
“I have a part-time “offer” from another college, which depends on classes’ enrollment.”
Can you live on that? I’m not sure how it works where you are, but in the West, if you go part-time as a professor, you often don’t get benefits like health insurance and often don’t get paid that well. Many part-time profs have to eek out a living working part-time at several different colleges and you get put on the schedule at the last minute. The adjunct professors are treated badly.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“I guess that’s another difference between us. If a guy approached me and was friendly, I was flattered, even if I wasn’t interested. (I don’t mean a creeper or someone leering at me.)”
Oh, I did feel the same way as you do when individual men approached (some became so giddy fast in front of others…😇 ) and usually I felt “sympathetic” for the guy since they could not arose my amorous interests. My annoyance was most shown to those “creepy” or “leering” eyes in public…
“But I’d pick Angelina Jolie if I was going to go that route. She seems like she knows what she’s doing. 🙂”
In any circumstance, I’d choose French women… in my eyes, they’re the most feminine, reserved, and mysterious. In my eyes, Angelina Jolie lacks feminine curves and subtlety….
”…since he is supposed to deal with only his SO.”
“I guess, although a married dude could have several women on the side who he’s having a PA with. You’re not always the only one besides the SO.”
That’s why I used the word, “supposed”… that’s why I turned down dashing LO#7’s PA offer, I refused to be a 2nd, 3rd, ? pet chick or his one-time “trophy”… But I’d tease his appetite as well without giving even crumbs. 🤫
“I need three guys. One for physical, one for emotional and one for intellectual. 🙂”
I am unable to separate three. I tired to deal with dudes with just one of three leading feature: the first kind, just plain 🥱 , the second, indecisive or 🥹 ; the third lacked muscles, unable to “get up” in bedroom… 😟
“Probably more so the later as you feel ambivalent about her ?”
Seeing her physically declining (thank god, no serious underline medical problems) of course arose my sympathy. But she still could not help irritate/trigger me, although trying quite hard to please me, which also saddens me. I don’t want anyone to feel insecure on my account, but there is no emotion between us to repair… I’m still trying my might to get rid of this cptsd directly caused by her treatment, which was so deeply imprinted in my neurons….
“the former is more of a lone-wolf, creative, and rebellious;”
He sounds like my type. 🙂”
He’s very emotional, easily having buckets of tears running…almost always depressed, and considered himself “asexual”… “Bullied” by his controlling xSO, a more of “henpecked” husband…
“I don’t know if I’d call mine decent. Depends on which one. But they were bad for me. Bad for a good, long-term partnerships.”
When it comes to that pair-bonding” drive, the word “decent” needs to be put to sleep by “anesthesia” in most men and women, limerent or not. I saw the phenomenon again and again… True, they can be “good” or “bad” ones for a loving, long-term partnerships.
“To interact, to have good conversation. And if you happen to meet a guy, that’s fine. If you don’t, that’s ok, too.”
My deceased Godfather (a very funny, gay, Hollywood-star biographer) used to say, “The best spouses is a good conversationist, so you’ll never get bored with him/her even when you’re very old.” He was invited to almost every social event among friends and family, because he could simply charm and humor even a baby present.
“I’m not sure what you mean. He had his phone turned off at night? What time of the day do you tutor him?”
Yes. If one turns off phone at 7 or 8pm particularly on weekend evenings, instead of 11 or 12, s/he is usually on a date. I tutor him from 6:30-7:30pm on Mondays, text him during daytime if needed.
“Can you live on that? I’m not sure how it works where you are… The adjunct professors are treated badly.”
Yes, I can. I have lived as AP without giving a dime how others viewed or treated me, as long as I could keep my shoulders straight, chin up, and carry a sincere smile… I was a natural Stoic in the field of profession/career. Of course, I always tried to do the best and leave results to their own courses….
When it comes to an emotional domain, everyone’s nerves are rocked or turned upside down soon or later… 🙃
Snowpheonix says
To correct: “When it comes to that pair-bonding” drive, the word “decency” has been put to sleep by all kinds of individual “anesthesia” in most men and women, limerent or not.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“I guess I felt sympathetic if I thought he was going to, for example, ask me out and I knew I wasn’t interested. If he was just being friendly and a little flirty, that was fine, but I didn’t want to be put in a position of having to say no. If I thought if things were going in that direction, I didn’t want to be rude but I tried not to be overly friendly.”
I’m pretty much the same way in social events here. I felt sorry for those who persisted in asking me out, but I just did not want to go out with them. In COO, we habitually avoid saying “No” (sheerly rude) to anything, but go around and around, until the other side gets the message. But some aggressive ones pretended that they din’t get “No” message, and pushed and pushed (like the example I told you a few weeks ago), then I’d pull down my snowy/icy face 👹
“That’s why it would be fun for a night. Subtlety has its place, but not once you get into the room with someone. 🙂”
I prefer subtle, savvy, slow-burning way baked with affections. NO more one-night, not even with LO!
“It’s what my LO did to me. But I never teased an LO; with an LO, I was serious about wanting to following through. 😉”
All my previous LOs soon left no room for teasing or imagination, except the current “Platonic” one. He played so much pulling-n-pushing, cold-n-hot “game”, you think my narcissistic appetite would let him get away? Since I could not and did not want to strip his clothes off, even when offered, then I’d tease with a couple of monologue lines here and there with none-rated, seductive words… 🤪 (DrL instructed me how to seduce LO in my 😴) .
“I am unable to separate three.”
“I’ve never experienced all in one person, I don’t think. Maybe the sexual and emotional but not the intellectual. If I bonded with them intellectually, I wasn’t attracted or found them a bit chilly.”
Neither me! I had all possible two-two combinations, but no three in one guy. I got some great Sexual/intellectual ones, but Glimmer or crush was absent, e.g. LO#5 and the triathlon/writer Parisian lover. Human brain is the sexiest organ.
“Is that because there’s no hope for the relationship to get better?”
Absolutely no hope! Looking at her face, I simply could NOT believe I was from her belly!
“When it comes to that pair-bonding” drive, the word “decent” needs to be put to sleep by “anesthesia” in most men and women, limerent or not.”
I’m not sure what you mean. You were anesthetized by limerence?”
I meant when people slip into LE or just a big crush, all their normal “decent” thoughts or behaviors are “anesthetized” from one day to one decade. Normal decency or logic lose their “power” in “pair-bonding” affairs; just look all our cases in LwL, Kennedy brothers with Marilyn Moore…
“Who did he write about?
“Milton’s Marilyn”, “Myrna Loy”, etc… Don’t tell me you know Jimmy personally ⁉️ He was my x-Mother-in-law’s best friend, charming, tastefully humorous, sweet, kind, suffered a lot (back then there was no gay rights), died of a sudden heart attack at age of 62.
“How did you know his phone was off? Did you call and it went right to voice mail?”
I don’t know whether his phone is off or on. But on the text screen, you can see whether other side has silenced the incoming notification. Your messages would be delivered, but soundlessly. Most people silence their phone during sleep or dating…
“You can still be highly valued by the students. But the university can sometimes treat their adjuncts like crap. “
Very true! I’m fully aware what’s going on in HE system in the States. This is one unfair situation (like 80% of matters in life) to practice one’s Stoicism: you can’t change an environment, but can only adjust your attitude towards it and find some workable solutions to make yourself at a certain level of peace. Complaining, shouting would NOT help one damn thing! Some of my colleagues, including LO, just lost their career built from 15-25 years, yet not reaching their retirement age yet… so sad and stressful!
Nowadays, I only work or do what I’d like and enjoy doing with a small amount of financial freedom.
Snowpheonix says
Just learned this term — Pure OCD, which I think, applies to limerence rumination, in all possible lighting…. 🔁🔂///
What is pure OCD? — https://youtu.be/Q9yKaI0vLJs?si=SjT6kRxSE8V3HqQt
Being one’s own best friend, while not leading an urban hermit lifestyle, is the biggest challenge in any culture…
Marcia says
Snow to the P,
“In COO, we habitually avoid saying “No” (sheerly rude) to anything, but go around and around, until the other side gets the message. ”
I don’t mean to knock your COO, but I think it’s cruel to not be direct and leave the other person confused. A quick, “Thank you for asking but I don’t care to go” is sufficient. Women in the West are taught to “be nice,” and can be so unclear, the guy doesn’t even know he’s been turned down and thinks there’s still hope. I couldn’t be direct when I was young but I can now.
“I prefer subtle, savvy, slow-burning way baked with affections. NO more one-night, not even with LO!”
I thought you meant being with a woman to give it a try. A one-time thing. So, yes, in that case, I’d pick Angelina. I think she’d be able to provide a great night. 🙂
“Since I could not and did not want to strip his clothes off, even when offered, then I’d tease with a couple of monologue lines here and there with none-rated, seductive words”
I never want to get near another tease again. Not after my LO. All talk and no action. No, thanks. 🙂
“Human brain is the sexiest organ.”
That’s true. It all starts in the imagination.
“Looking at her face, I simply could NOT believe I was from her belly!”
OMG, I know that feeling. I look at my family and think: How is it that we’re related? They don’t understand me; I don’t understand them. We are such different people.
“I meant when people slip into LE or just a big crush, all their normal “decent” thoughts or behaviors are “anesthetized” from one day to one decade.”
So a typically decent person in terms of morality and how they treat other people …. looses all sense of who they are?
” Normal decency or logic lose their “power” in “pair-bonding” affairs; just look all our cases in LwL, Kennedy brothers with Marilyn Moore…”
I think the Kennedys used her when she was at her worst. It was despicable.
““Milton’s Marilyn”, “Myrna Loy”, etc… Don’t tell me you know Jimmy personally ⁉️ ”
No, I didn’t know him, but I love Old Hollywood. The minute I read “Milton’s” Marilyn … I knew him to be a photographer who took some of the loveliest pictures of her. I don’t know that much about Myrna Loy other than the William Powell pictures. I would have loved to talk to your Godfather.
“I don’t know whether his phone is off or on. But on the text screen, you can see whether other side has silenced the incoming notification. ”
I did not know that. We can only assume Romeo is on a date to distract him from thoughts of the lovely Snowphoenix. 🙂
“Some of my colleagues, including LO, just lost their career built from 15-25 years, yet not reaching their retirement age yet… so sad and stressful!”
It’s horrible. Are they applying to other schools and universities?
Snowpheonix says
Marcia Sis,
“I don’t mean to knock your COO, but I think it’s cruel to not be direct and leave the other person confused. :
In COO, it’s considered an art of subtlety and most people would get polite, “harmonious” rejections. Since everyone’s pride or “face” is a much bigger deal than most Westerners, they usually would back up and swallow a bitter fruit of rejection graciously or quietly. Some of my older suitors believed or knew that I’d reject them, so they never spilt out their wishes, worrying they’d “lose face” even in front of me. “Saving/keeping/giving face” is the biggest deal besides birth and death.
“A quick, “Thank you for asking but I don’t care to go” is sufficient. Women in the West are taught to “be nice,” and can be so unclear, the guy doesn’t even know he’s been turned down and thinks there’s still hope.”
Yes, that’s a huge cultural difference between Westerners and Easterners. I’ve heard complaints from both sides. The latter habitually feels rude to say No, and the former could not detect that No.
“I couldn’t be direct when I was young but I can now.”
I’m better now, but still not direct. Growing up with the “art of subtlety”, I always had troubles to say “No” directly and I felt hurt when Westerner uttered “no” without hesitation (in all sorts of matters). I still constantly, subconsciously omit “no” or “not” in my written messages here and my internal system would feel on fire if I have to utter a verbal “No” to anyone in reality.
“I thought you meant being with a woman to give it a try. A one-time thing. So, yes, in that case, I’d pick Angelina. I think she’d be able to provide a great night. 🙂”
I do not want one-time thing with anyone, including Juliette Binoche. Otherwise, I would have done it with LO, who wanted that kind of “casual” PA without EA. I would feet hurt badly.
“I never want to get near another tease again. Not after my LO. All talk and no action. No, thanks. 🙂”
I was talking about me doing tease to LO, which made me feel less that my nose was pulled by my controllable LO/LE. With my narcissistic traits (pride), I guess I wanted some leverage in the “game” of pulling-n-pushing; it worked for a brief time. But ultimately, I backed up, knowing at most, I’d only get a casual PA without his heart, plus by that time, his pet LO already appeared. In my whole life, I have refused to compete/compare myself with any other girls/women. Like you, I simply do not want to be treated as a second.
“So a typically decent person in terms of morality and how they treat other people …. looses all sense of who they are?”
Yes. Their (our) selfish needs to “pair-bond” often threw away some “normal decency” at least temporarily. Just think of those lies, more creative and artistic ones…
“I think the Kennedys used her when she was at her worst. It was despicable.”
They’re example of indecency in treating Marilyn Moore.
“I would have loved to talk to your Godfather.”
Yes, my Godfather was the most alive person I’ve met, so humorous, soothing and enlivening. You could pick up any word, and then he could go from there leading you to a bigger, hilarious “world”…. I don’t want to be biased, but most gay men I have countered through various professional and social settings are just very smart, cultured, and fun to be around. One of them got jealous at my LO #6, forbidding me to talk about the latter in front of him. He invited me to his gay friend circle, attending their holiday celebrations or going to gay/trans club (so creative and more fun than a straight one), which was an eye opener for me. They are more relaxed and friendlier than straight guys.
“I did not know that. We can only assume Romeo is on a date to distract him from thoughts of the lovely Snowphoenix. 🙂”
Sister, you’re getting flattery with me 😇 🙃 Romeo texted me yesterday asking to postpone his class date, just as I had guessed. He needs/wants his birthday evening entirely reserved either for a date or his older sister, who also lives in town. Who would want an hour of class interrupting whatever fun a birthday party could bring?? That’s okay that I’ll see him on Wednesday.
“It’s horrible. Are they applying to other schools and universities”
Most of them are, but the shocking news came only in January, so they already missed the HE hiring process that usually starts in Fall. LO is applying a bunch of HS, which is rare for his field. My Buddhist colleague just got an offer with a tenured position. Interest in learning about Buddhism has been constantly rising in the US colleges. My other Buddhist colleague (unofficially dated me) also found a better teaching position in a college two years ago, spared of the current butchering.
I’m on the Easter break but got sick two days ago with fever and whole body aching. Last night, I had a dream going to a hosptial. Guess whom I bumped into?? — DrL was standing outside of a ward, his wife was about delivering a baby girl… I said “hello” to him; he looked very happy 😆 He is fit, not tall, and still looked like Dr. Kawashima. 😄
Snowpheonix says
You see another subconscious error: thinking to type “Uncontrollable”, but “un” was somehow omitted, which is realized almost 4 hours later —
“that my nose was pulled by my uncontrollable LO/LE”…
Marcia says
Snow,
“they usually would back up and swallow a bitter fruit of rejection graciously or quietly.”
You’re going to swallow that whether someone is direct with you or not, if you’re rejected.
“The latter habitually feels rude to say No, and the former could not detect that No.”
I don’t think it’s rude at all. I think, at least in the West, men are less adept at picking up on subtlety than women. I’ve had friends tell me what they said to reject a guy — “I just got out of a relationship,” for example — and I knew it was a rejection for now and in the future, but I wondered if the guy was confused. And I had a situation with someone I dated briefly who came back into my life. I thought I had made clear I wanted to be friends. Apparently, I didn’t. He was thinking we were rekindling what we had. In my effort to be nice, I wasn’t clear. We are no longer in contact, based on his wishes. I would have liked to be friends with him. I don’t know if we could have been friends if I had been clear. It’s hard to say. If romance was all he wanted, he might not have been amenable.
And I’ve been on the receiving end myself of unclear rejections; I remember trying to “read the tea leaves” for hope.
Now that I’m older, I know that anything less than a “yes” is a “no,” but I didn’t understand that for the longest time and I can’t assume the guy will know that. On top of that, Western culture has this bizarre narrative that tells the guy he needs to keep trying. So being clear is best. IMO.
“I still constantly, subconsciously omit “no” or “not” in my written messages here and my internal system would feel on fire if I have to utter a verbal “No” to anyone in reality.”
I hate doing it. I hate rejecting someone. I feel extremely uncomfortable, like my entire body is clenching up. So I try to not be too friendly to be even put in the position of being asked and having to reject.
“I do not want one-time thing with anyone, including Juliette Binoche. Otherwise, I would have done it with LO, who wanted that kind of “casual” PA without EA. I would feet hurt badly.”
Ah. I wouldn’t want a relationship with a woman. For me, it would be a one-nighter.
“I was talking about me doing tease to LO, which made me feel less that my nose was pulled by my controllable LO/LE. With my narcissistic traits (pride), I guess I wanted some leverage in the “game” of pulling-n-pushing; it worked for a brief time.”
I know you were talking about your LO; I was just saying that for me, personally, I would stay away from teases.
But I certainly understand what you were doing. I did it, too, with my LO. He’d pull back; I’d pull back. Sometimes I’d be flirtatious; other times civil but a bit chilly. But none of those games worked.
” In my whole life, I have refused to compete/compare myself with any other girls/women. Like you, I simply do not want to be treated as a second.”
I’ve had guys try to make me jealous by largely hinting there were other women; all that did was make me retreat.
“Just think of those lies, more creative and artistic ones…”
Limerents also tell themselves a lot of lies.
“They’re example of indecency in treating Marilyn Moore.”
I don’t know they were limerent or had strong feelings for her. The Kennedy men grew up in a family with a father who taught them to treat women badly.
“I don’t want to be biased, but most gay men I have countered through various professional and social settings are just very smart, cultured, and fun to be around … He invited me to his gay friend circle, attending their holiday celebrations or going to gay/trans club (so creative and more fun than a straight one), which was an eye opener for me. They are more relaxed and friendlier than straight guys.”
I couldn’t agree more. Why do you think I’m trying to hang out with Sammy and Frederico?! The gay clubs are more fun, the music is better and the men are hotter! 🙂
“Sister, you’re getting flattery with me 😇 🙃”
That’s my job. 🙂
” That’s okay that I’ll see him on Wednesday.”
I’m sorry he postponed. Are you giving him the bookmark on Wednesday?
“Most of them are, but the shocking news came only in January, so they already missed the HE hiring process that usually starts in Fall.”
That’s terrible. Look up Margaret Mary Vojtko. She was in her early 80s. She was found dead in her apartment. She’d been working as an adjunct professor for twenty-five years (!) at a university in Pennsylvania and had to keep teaching because she got sick and could not pay her medical bills. She had no pension. She was earning a paltry $10,000 a year. She couldn’t afford heat in her home!
“LO is applying a bunch of HS, which is rare for his field.”
Would he just teach for one year at the HS and then try to get an job at a college during the next round of hiring later this year?
“I’m on the Easter break but got sick two days ago with fever and whole body aching.”
Feeling any better?
” Last night, I had a dream going to a hosptial. Guess whom I bumped into?? — DrL was standing outside of a ward, his wife was about delivering a baby girl… I said “hello” to him; he looked very happy 😆 He is fit, not tall, and still looked like Dr. Kawashima. 😄”
Are your dreams that vivid? I hardly ever remember mine and if I do, it’s just small bits and pieces of what happened.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“You’re going to swallow that whether someone is direct with you or not, if you’re rejected.”
Yes. But if one is brought up in more of Stoic way or one’s ego is small, then a pain of rejection would lass shorter, the intensity weaker. Father taught me how not to feel a jealousy, later when I got rejected, I would tell myself: if someone does not want to be with you, what’s the fun to be with the guy; you’re be an annoyance and looked down upon by that person for your “begging” behavior. So my narcissistic ego would firmly pull myself back. I have NEVER begged anything from anyone in my life, especially mental or emotional stuff! I told LO this in writing at one point when I suspected he was a Narc dallying at me.
“I don’t think it’s rude at all. I think, at least in the West, men are less adept at picking up on subtlety than women.
I am aware the culture of “directness” in the West, particularly in doing business (in COO, even during business deals, a rejection would be given subtly so the other side’s “face” would not be “harmed” ). I was just saying that in the East, every boy/girl was brought with subtlety, and keeping face is so important that most men, at least those smart ones, would pick women’s hint of a rejection or ignorance for romance. They’d stick around for friendships if they really like her. I only learned about their unexpressed affection much later through a mutual friend or a third party.
Although understanding the difference of the East and West in expressing rejection, like you, I still feel extremely uncomfortable or even a pain to say NO to anyone in important matters; when other side (mostly Westerners) would not hesitate to say No to me if in the same situation.
“Now that I’m older, I know that anything less than a “yes” is a “no,”
Yes. Even a “maybe” is NO. Don’t hold any hope for a “maybe”… which could lead limerents to more of daydreaming.
“but I didn’t understand that for the longest time and I can’t assume the guy will know that. “On top of that, Western culture has this bizarre narrative that tells the guy he needs to keep trying. So being clear is best. IMO.”
I sensed that narrative, too. Some guys just think/believe that if they persist, women would be touched eventually and change their mind. Well, for limerent like me, if without Glimmer, nothing could have worked even they came with the Moon.
“I hate doing it. I hate rejecting someone. I feel extremely uncomfortable, like my entire body is clenching up. So I try to not be too friendly to be even put in the position of being asked and having to reject.”
I dislike hurting others’ feelings, knowing how bad I had felt when being rejected or ignored by cruel Mom when I was little. In reality, I’ve rarely made friends with strangers or guys from dating apps, most of them were old classmates or coworkers. They knew me well enough not to “corner” me for a definitive answer for a relationship. Most of guys from here, who expressed a romantic interests, was subtle; when I smiled without really responding; they got a “no” from me.
“Ah. I wouldn’t want a relationship with a woman. For me, it would be a one-nighter.”
Neither me. I actually can’t imagine even one-night” with any woman. Binoche is just a fantasy.
“I certainly understand what you were doing. I did it, too, with my LO. He’d pull back; I’d pull back. Sometimes I’d be flirtatious; other times civil but a bit chilly. But none of those games worked.”
I only played this game a little bit once I was certain that I could not and did not want to get physically close to him, after his pet LO appeared. Beforehand, I could not do it while still seriously trying to get emotionally closer to him. Remember, I wanted EA first, although my desired EA was not a straight-foward pair-bonding (my Glimmer might be), but a parental makeup/bonding.
“I’ve had guys try to make me jealous by largely hinting there were other women; all that did was make me retreat.”
It takes one to make one! Because they are jealous of other men around their desired women (the animal’s territory instinct), so they believe all women would feel the same way; and some women have the similar mentality towards men. When comes to human natures in their mental or emotional domains, nothing could be calculated like a math equation or deduced by Sherlock Holme’s logic. There are always odd balls in any culture who do not follow its cultural scripts.
“Just think of those lies, more creative and artistic ones…” “Limerents also tell themselves a lot of lies.”
Limerents’ daydreams are just gigantic, beautiful“lies”! Luckily, a few limerents don’t always act their fantasies out, but somehow channel them through their imaginative, creative work. Some limerents have produced masterpieces of love stores, music, paintings…
“I don’t know they were limerent or had strong feelings for her. The Kennedy men grew up in a family with a father who taught them to treat women badly.”
I don’t believe they had limerence or strong feelings for her, because she was the sex symbol of the country. On which level, they’d know her personally? If she were an ordinary woman, maybe their feelings for her could be trusted. As a national “sexual symbol”, she’s an ultimate target for all men’s ego game!
I couldn’t agree more. Why do you think I’m trying to hang out with Sammy and Frederico?! The gay clubs are more fun, the music is better and the men are hotter! “
And they are safer to be close….
“Sister, you’re getting flattery with me “
”That’s my job. “
I’ve never heard such an amazing flattery, reminding me the man in “Love in the time of Cholera.”
“I’m sorry he postponed. Are you giving him the bookmark on Wednesday?”
Of course. The bookmark has been signed. Knowing a student’s birthday and then expressing nothing is really rude in COO. A bookmark is also very appropriate since he has to use two books for his study, but I’m not going to give him two bookmarks.
“That’s terrible. Look up Margaret Mary Vojtko.”
I assume with Obama health care, Vojtko could get something, why didn’t she? Anyway, I could live on a part-time job with my limited interests income (I’ve paid off all my debts).
“Would he just teach for one year at the HS and then try to get a job at a college during the next round of hiring later this year?”
I would assume he would do that, unless he gets an offer from that top, elite Prep school (my x-father-in-law attended it) . He says that he still has graduate school loans to pay off; it seems that his SO is not responsible for that part besides their co-op mortgage.
“Feeling any better?”
Yes much better. Fever was gone this morning, just feeling weak and mild headache (I only took one painkiller altogether). Took a walk for grocery shopping and then had to handled some “urgent” business for Mom.
“Are your dreams that vivid? I hardly ever remember mine and if I do, it’s just small bits and pieces of what happened”
All my dreams, if remembered, are as vivid as a feature movie — with detailed setting, lighting, people’s face, ridiculous/baseless narratives, specific sentences or words…. My mind thinks during day 🤔 and “imagines” at night 🙃 Not a boring life, huh?
Carl Jung observes that “dreams are driven by a natural tendency to bring resolution and closure to unfinished emotional and mental problems of the day.” — My dream of cruel Romeo killed my glimmer a couple of weeks ago; this week I can’t feel that glimmer at all inside me. Now, I could imagine how cruelty would look like on his beautiful face, although he still smiles sweetly.
Carlos Jung: “… in dreams, parts of the personality which are not yet integrated or even being manifest through conflict (in the sense of complexes), can appear personified.” — It is highly challenging for me to decipher a variety of my dreams about Mom, Dad, and LO #5 and #7: nice and okay ones, horrible and terrifying ones, lucid ones…. (Some of them were easily interpreted) I recorded them all, but had hard time to decipher them all, without a systematic training in Jungian dream theories. 💡
Marcia says
Snow,
“But if one is brought up in more of Stoic way or one’s ego is small, then a pain of rejection would lass shorter, the intensity weaker. ”
I would say it has a lot to do with how interested the person is. The stronger the interest, the bigger the pain of rejection.
“Father taught me how not to feel a jealousy, later when I got rejected, I would tell myself: if someone does not want to be with you, what’s the fun to be with the guy”
I agree, but if everyone thought like this, there’d be no limerence! This site wouldn’t exist. 🙂
” I have NEVER begged anything from anyone in my life, especially mental or emotional stuff!”
I haven’t begged but I’ve done too much to get or keep someone’s attention. I definitely cringe at some of the stuff I did.
“I was just saying that in the East, every boy/girl was brought with subtlety, and keeping face is so important that most men, at least those smart ones, would pick women’s hint of a rejection or ignorance for romance.”
I guess if your culture has taught men to pick up on subtlety it could work. I don’t know if that’s true in the West. Just cultural differences.
” They’d stick around for friendships if they really like her.”
I don’t think guys stick around for friendship. 🙂
“Yes. Even a “maybe” is NO. Don’t hold any hope for a “maybe”… which could lead limerents to more of daydreaming.”
Yes, totally agree. A person who is interested is going to say yes and show up to spend time with the other person. It really is that simple.
“I sensed that narrative, too. Some guys just think/believe that if they persist, women would be touched eventually and change their mind. ”
It’s the narrative in a lot of movies.
Or she’ll fall in love eventually with the guy friend who hangs around on the sidelines.
“Well, for limerent like me, if without Glimmer, nothing could have worked even they came with the Moon.”
Me, neither.
“I dislike hurting others’ feelings, knowing how bad I had felt when being rejected or ignored by cruel Mom when I was little.”
I do, too, which is why I watch how friendly I’m being if I sense the guy may be interested and I know I’m not.
“Most of guys from here, who expressed a romantic interests, was subtle; when I smiled without really responding; they got a “no” from me.”
That’s good.
“Because they are jealous of other men around their desired women (the animal’s territory instinct), so they believe all women would feel the same way”
I am a jealous person; I’m just not going to respond when someone is so obviously trying to manipulate me by trying to make me jealous.
Now, I won’t say I’ve never tried to make someone jealous, but I look back on it and cringe.
“Limerents’ daydreams are just gigantic, beautiful“lies”! ”
I meant they lie to themselves about the lines they are crossing. I sure did.
“As a national “sexual symbol”, she’s an ultimate target for all men’s ego game!”
I think there is a lot of truth to this, but there had to have been some men who genuinely cared for her once they got past the image and the sex symbol status.
“I’ve never heard such an amazing flattery”
🙂
“reminding me the man in “Love in the time of Cholera.”
I don’t know much about the book. I tried to watch the movie with Javier Bardem. I couldn’t get into it.
” I’m not going to give him two bookmarks.”
No, not two! He’d have to show interest to get two! 🙂
“I assume with Obama health care, Vojtko could get something, why didn’t she?”
She probably had Medicare, but it doesn’t cover everything. You need a supplemental, and she probably couldn’t afford it. (In terms of Obamacare, it only helps if you make very little money and you can get some assistance. If you’re not practically making nothing, you won’t get assistance and the monthly premiums are very high.)
“My mind thinks during day 🤔 and “imagines” at night 🙃 Not a boring life, huh?”
I’d rather have the interesting stuff go on during the day. 🙂
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“I would say it has a lot to do with how interested the person is. The stronger the interest, the bigger the pain of rejection.”
Psychologically it’s true. But it also depends on strength of Romanticism in a culture. In some cultures in the East, social and economic matching in a relationship is still stronger than personal feelings. But with globalization and Hollywood’s “invasions”, more and more young people follow their feelings instead of what convention or social “matchmakers” would say.
“I agree, but if everyone thought like this, there’d be no limerence! This site wouldn’t exist. “
Well, Stoic practices may not take one’s emotional desires away immediately, but could help restrict one’s regrettable (cringing) actions driven by those emotions. Then combined with Buddhism, one could watch those intrusive thoughts or unwanted emotions with an equilibrium, instead of being helplessly controlled by them.
”I haven’t begged but I’ve done too much to get or keep someone’s attention. I definitely cringe at some of the stuff I did.”
I did some embarrassing stuff, too, but not in this LE; I was quite cautious both in person and writing (previously never dealt with a married guy), and my babyish Stoic practice helped keep me on my toes! Also, I was after a makeup “parenting” for the first 4 years of LE; I wanted to get LO’s attention as a surrogate “parent”. The inevitable error was: it was not my logical mind that picked LO, but that instinctual Glimmer.
“I guess if your culture has taught men to pick up on subtlety it could work. I don’t know if that’s true in the West. Just cultural differences.”
I did not know this cultural difference and assumed that Western educated men would be able to guess. As a result, there were a lot of misunderstandings between my SO and me, and my parents.
I don’t think guys stick around for friendship. “
As I mentioned before that in the East, friendship is valued more than romance. Here romance and that pair-bonding desire seem to be over promoted and pursued as a necessity, a symbol of glory, and an utter happiness, while it’s only one part of life.
“It’s the narrative in a lot of movies.”
Yes. Media, especially Hollywood, has been playing a huge role in misleading people in arena of romanticism, heroism, and other aspects of life.
“I am a jealous person; I’m just not going to respond when someone is so obviously trying to manipulate me by trying to make me jealous.”
I’m am not a jealous person almost in every field (Dad’s merit,) but I like to learn about anything I don’t know or have, thus satisfy my curiosities. The jealousy aroused in this LE really surprised me and made me upset/angry at myself.
“Now, I won’t say I’ve never tried to make someone jealous, but I look back on it and cringe.”
I never tried to make anyone else jealous. When young, I didn’t think anyone would be jealous of me, who always felt insecure inside and shy outside. Years later, I was told that many girls were covertly jealous of me (copying me) and boys were “afraid” of me. After college, I could detect jealous look on other women’s face. I always kindly smiled at them or sincerely chatted with them if I knew them, so they would not be openly rude/hostile to me.
“I meant they lie to themselves about the lines they are crossing. I sure did.”
My “French woman” part wanted and thought about crossing the line, but ultimately I did not do it, for the reasons we already talked about. I was so respectful to the boundary that LO even complained in person, “we did not do much besides talking,” which was what he requested initially. Why people often said things that they didn’t mean (Or am I an Aspie)? Just pretending they were decent/moral while expecting me to initiate a crossing of the line and then take some blames later?
“reminding me the man in “Love in the time of Cholera.” I don’t know much about the book. I tried to watch the movie with Javier Bardem. I couldn’t get into it.”
The male protagonist in the movie is definitely a hardcore limerent. He waited 51-54 years for the death of the husband of the girl he fell in love at the first sight when they both were young and unmarried. During the five decades, he never got married but made love to 626 women with only his beloved LO in his head (seeking solace in those women?). In the end when they finally got together in their 80s, he said to her, “I’ve remained a virgin for you.” They could not make love by then but both felt genuinely happy living together finally.
“I’d rather have the interesting stuff go on during the day.”
I do, too, but my Unconscious takes over my night, nothing I could do about it, except following its lead, enjoying or suffering — an authentic “Fate”, waving her wand during my sleep!
Sometimes, I was a protagonist in those dream narratives/movies; sometimes, I also saw/aware my own eyes following me acting in the plots… just a pair of eyes sustaining in the air or at a corner watching me acting or behaving, isn’t that crazy? I don’t know what special function my brain has.
Last night, I dreamed another dramatic play/plot in a resort place, managing a bunch of kids running all over the place…, gee it was so busy and hectic!
Marcia says
Snow,
“I did some embarrassing stuff, too, but not in this LE; I was quite cautious both in person and writing (previously never dealt with a married guy)”
Didn’t you email him, sometimes without a response? I personally make it a rule not to “double text” or “double email.” I’ll reach out with one email or one text. If I don’t get a response, I don’t reach out again. It’s up to the other person to either respond or initiate contact themselves at some point in the future.
I didn’t used to do that. I reached out too much, initiated contact too much, made too many attempts to “run” into that person. But all of that is a bad sign. If someone wants to keep in contact with you and see you, they will.
” The inevitable error was: it was not my logical mind that picked LO, but that instinctual Glimmer.”
Glimmers and LO selection are never logical. That’s why they’re both so powerful. They seem to arise from the deepest part of our psyches.
“As I mentioned before that in the East, friendship is valued more than romance.”
I wish it was also true in the West. Romance is fleeting, passion short-lived. But friendship is a secondary relationship in the West, after romance/marriage and family. The saying is: “Friends come and go; family is forever.” I laugh at that. Family can be awful, as you know! 🙂
In terms of opposite-sex friendship in the West, I read this somewhere: a man wants to sleep with his female friends and a woman keeps her male friends around as possibilities, just in case something happens with their current relationship. It think there’s some truth to it.
“The jealousy aroused in this LE really surprised me and made me upset/angry at myself.”
I was jealous of any woman I saw talking with or interacting with my LO. Except women I didn’t think he’d find attractive. But I wasn’t jealous of his wife, maybe because I never saw/met her.
” After college, I could detect jealous look on other women’s face. I always kindly smiled at them or sincerely chatted with them if I knew them, so they would not be openly rude/hostile to me.”
Women can be very catty with each other. Very mean to each other. The idea that it’s easier for a woman to work for a woman is not always true.
“I was so respectful to the boundary that LO even complained in person, “we did not do much besides talking,” which was what he requested initially.”
Do you think you were close to having an EA? I have a few guy friends and we do talk about personal things but I think of them as almost like brothers. I don’t know how I’d feel if I had an SO who was exchanging personal emails with a female co-worker.
“Just pretending they were decent/moral while expecting me to initiate a crossing of the line and then take some blames later?”
Yes. If you made the first move to initiate a PA, the blame is shifted onto you a bit more than onto him. Makes him feel less responsible.
“During the five decades, he never got married but made love to 626 women”
Yuck.
“with only his beloved LO in his head (seeking solace in those women?). In the end when they finally got together in their 80s, he said to her, “I’ve remained a virgin for you.” They could not make love by then but both felt genuinely happy living together finally.”
That sounds really sad. He could have found love with someone else.
“Sometimes, I was a protagonist in those dream narratives/movies; sometimes, I also saw/aware my own eyes following me acting in the plots… just a pair of eyes sustaining in the air or at a corner watching me acting or behaving, isn’t that crazy?”
I’ve had something similar. Like … I know I’m in the dream but I can’t see myself. The dream is like watching a movie. Other times, I’ve been able to see myself in the dream.
“Last night, I dreamed another dramatic play/plot in a resort place, managing a bunch of kids running all over the place…, gee it was so busy and hectic!”
That sounds like a punishment. 🙂
Snowpheonix says
Dame Marcia,
“Didn’t you email him, sometimes without a response? “
For the first two yeas, there was a scanty, superficial response. But later in the 2nd half of this LE, it was a routine for me to write short or long monologues without any response. I seriously treated it as written therapy sessions with a realistic ear (not silent journal book) without expecting his response at all (but imagined and gave his responding lines in my head based on my wishes…).
So I neither felt embarrassed (I’m an eccentric Easterner) nor anxious nor disappointed, without expectations, without pains! My one-person produced show had one silent audience whom I saw and chitchat regularly in daytimes w/o mentioning what went on in those monologues. My compartmentalization had given” both of us a double identity: he a colleague/friend and the Phantom, I a colleague/friend and a fantasy writer, director, and actor for both sides.
Moreover, in the active, free-flowing writing (do edit them carefully), a lot of unknown stuff from my hidden unconscious realm emerged and gradually removed (awareness is a half cure). That’s why I told you I’ve gained some psychological benefits from my LE. Do you understand it now?
“I personally make it a rule not to “double text” or “double email.” I’ll reach out with one email or one text. If I don’t get a response, I don’t reach out again. It’s up to the other person to either respond or initiate contact themselves at some point in the future.”
To build a realistic, workable emotional connection/bond, your way is necessary! However, in my LE, I knew from Day 1 it was impossible and did not expect anything more. Actually, as I told you before, because he had SO, I thought it was safe to reach out for a possible friendship. So I “oddly” changed the script of most common limerence without knowing what LE is at all back then.
”Glimmers and LO selection are never logical. That’s why they’re both so powerful. They seem to arise from the deepest part of our psyches.”
Because on my 3 primary LOs’ (#1, 4, 7) face, I saw “a piece of myself” 🤔through that glimmer in 5 seconds. Sorry Sis, I refuse to define them as “bad” people (but complex). If they are, then I am, too. I still trust my intuition, sensed more through 5 senses than written words (also stimulates one’s intuition) merely.
“I wish it was also true in the West. Romance is fleeting, passion short-lived. But friendship is a secondary relationship in the West, after romance/marriage and family. “
That’s one thing that makes the Western culture cold/chilly to me. I always wished that I could bump into some exceptional people who would value more friendship, even at absence of a possible romance.
“The saying is: “Friends come and go; family is forever.” I laugh at that. Family can be awful, as you know! “
Yeah, you and I still have to deal with an awful one! During my elementary school and teenage years, I wished so much I were born into the loving family of my gfs.
“In terms of opposite-sex friendship in the West, I read this somewhere: a man wants to sleep with his female friends and a woman keeps her male friends around as possibilities, just in case something happens with their current relationship. It think there’s some truth to it.”
It is puzzling for a narcissistic/proud woman to see that some women in the West are so needy, depending on men emotionally, mentally and even financially, as if they were incapable of making a living or standing up on their own mental toes. *sigh*. 😔
“I was jealous of any woman I saw talking with or interacting with my LO. Except women I didn’t think he’d find attractive. But I wasn’t jealous of his wife, maybe because I never saw/met her.”
Yeah, you mentioned this before 😄. I was neither jealous of his SO (never met but knew she literally looks like an elephant) nor those good-looking women orbiting around him at work. But that incidental glimpse of his glimmering at his pet LO (neither pretty nor attractive to my eyes) instantly sent me to a hell without my understanding of it for a while.
”Women can be very catty with each other. Very mean to each other. The idea that it’s easier for a woman to work for a woman is not always true.”
Not so obviously “catty” in my COO; here they could be mean like my imagined “devil” 😱! Gee, I’ve learned some painful lessons with a couple of my female bosses. The nicer I tried be, the more bullies I got from them. 👹
“Do you think you were close to having an EA? “
Yes, I intuitively thought/believed so and still feel/think so, although I have no solid proofs and do not dare to trust my “illusions”. I guess, he would never admit it even if it were true, due to his claimed fidelity to his SO, concealment of his LO, and highly crafted social/moral mask. I’ve initiated so many LCs and NCs, and each time, he tried to convince me to stay in this “odd” dynamic. When I “returned”, he always said, “there is no bitterness here….” I can’t and don’t understand that if he has SO and LO to meet all his needs, why care at all about my “cold-n-hot” affections — which he first glimmered at as a Sensor??
“I don’t know how I’d feel if I had an SO who was exchanging personal emails with a female co-worker.”
Not exactly “exchange” but merely “receive” on his end. That’s why LO claimed at the beginning that “for various reasons, I can’t respond some of missives…” “I feel I am betraying my wife….” Later, I didn’t expect any replies, so he did not bother explaining anything anymore. He said his SO and some of our mutual colleagues knew about my serious/possibly fatal illness — one reason I talked with him so much at work and in writing?
“Yes. If you made the first move to initiate a PA, the blame is shifted onto you a bit more than onto him. Makes him feel less responsible.”
I would not have minded trying so (never did before as a typical, “passive” Eastern female), if he ever showed more affection for me. He always sounded like standing on a high moral ground, making me feel I’d be snapped at if I dared to touch just his hands and then he’d walk away completely. You think my cptsd would be able to take that chance? 🥶
“During the five decades, he never got married but made love to 626 women” Yuck.”
In the movie, he said something like that’s how he had shown his love for his only beloved (instead of feeling depressed or destroyed for 51 years). He treated all 626 women very well and was very popular with women, although he’s ugly.
“That sounds really sad. He could have found love with someone else.”
He’s an ideal limerent! It’s an unbelievable sad story!
“I’ve had something similar. Like … I know I’m in the dream but I can’t see myself. The dream is like watching a movie. Other times, I’ve been able to see myself in the dream.”
Yes, I knew I was in the dream with two eyes and watched myself acting in a dream “movie”. Our human brain is so fascinating and magical!
Remember what I said in my previous message: “My “French woman” part wanted and thought about crossing the line,…”? Ha, my Unconscious — an alive beast (based on Jung), punished me in my last night dream again 😢 I really need to watch what I say to you before my bedtime…😩
The dream of 3/31 Dawn —
I was back in COO again, walking on a small rugged, sloppy road that connected to the dorm where my parents lived and gave me the birth. Knowing that I was going to be separated from LO permanently, I finally decided to rent/borrow a room (from an old gf) to have a rendezvous with LO. Of course, this room was adjacent to her room in a small, short dorm.
Scene 1: LO came around on a hot afternoon on a bike. But my gf/landlord was at home and all the dorm doors were open. So I could not bring LO to the room I borrowed. I was upset but LO did not complain.
Scene 2: another day, these were some bustling activities going on in the dorm with some visitors, god knew from where. When I brought LO to my room, I was shocked to find out a bunch of country women sitting on my bed chatting. While asked why, they giggled and said they needed a place to rest a bit. This time LO was pissed, so was I!
Scene 3: LO arrived with a bike. But I saw one of our mutual colleagues, Andy [true in reality] was walking down the road towards me. So I told LO to leave the site immediately before Andy could spot him. LO yanked the bike so forcibly that the front handle bar was left in my hand while he rode down the hill only on the seat and two wheels!
Andy came up; we walked a bit chatting along on the road. I asked him how he was doing [he also got laid off, but he’s always 70 yrs, ready to retire in reality]. He said he’s doing ok with a smile, but so puzzled while looking at this “loose” bike handle in my hands….
***** I woke up***** and felt 😞. Even in the dream with a final rented room, I still couldn’t spend one moment alone with LO! 🥲
You see what my Unconscious has been doing to me, in terms of dealing with LO and Romeo⁉️ My Unconscious was rarely my friend! 😮💨 — often revealed my deepest desires and then killed them immediately in my detailed vivid, feature “movies” in my dreams… 💭
After waking up, I realized that whether LO takes a job in or out of the state, I won’t be able to see him regularly, maybe never again…. Then I got a panic attack in bed… luckily it did not last long, maybe just a few seconds….
During the day, only some tender feelings grew towards the Phantom, blurred with LO again, perhaps because a final end is arriving… which is making my reality surreal like a dream❓
Trifles says
Snowphoenix, I need to vent here and I just saw your comment: “So I neither felt embarrassed (I’m an eccentric Easterner) nor anxious nor disappointed, without expectations, without pains!”
And that made me feel better. I’ve at times felt like I’m putting on a one-woman show, although other times we have great give-and-take banter.
So what I need to vent about: I did what I planned to do all along , even though I tried to fight against it by writing here. I had to test if I had really spooked LO last time (2+ weeks ago) with my emotions. (Before NC, I had let him know I was upset with how little response I was sometimes getting and that he should rather set me free if he felt that way than keep me hanging. I suppose he tried to reply in a friendly yet firm way saying that he was just very busy at the moment and reminding me he was a family man, but it came across like he was just basically tolerating me.) I couldn’t back out after that point so I told him (nicely?) I had to go NC because it was too one-sided.
But now I sent him a friendly, light-hearted text on Easter. And I can congratulate myself – I was right, he was spooked. Or if I spin it a nicer way: he’s helping me to hold NC. He didn’t open it (though there are ways to open it and not have it show… So worse: he’s showing me he’s not opening it), no response, no reward. My worst fear was that he thinks I’m crazy for getting so emotionally wrapped up, and this might mean he does. But because I was kind of expecting this, I don’t even feel humiliated. I’m not even angry. So that’s positive? I will have to remember this empty feeling.
I suppose I had to test the waters to see if he would respond or not. But now that I know he won’t, NC should be easier. One step forward… NC day 1 again.
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“Dame Marcia”
LOL
“Moreover, in the active, free-flowing writing (do edit them carefully), a lot of unknown stuff from my hidden unconscious realm emerged and gradually removed (awareness is a half cure). That’s why I told you I’ve gained some psychological benefits from my LE. Do you understand it now?”
I understand the positive effect it had on you, but I don’t understand emailing someone who you didn’t know well with that kind of personal information, especially because he didn’t respond. I would have needed a response. I would have needed a reciprocal amount of sharing on his part to continue with my sharing (or I would have felt figuratively naked). I think it ‘s a lot of information to kind of, for lack of a better term, unload on someone. That’s for a therapist. Maybe a close friend, but even then there are limitations to how much the other person can/will listen and be supportive.
“Actually, as I told you before, because he had SO, I thought it was safe to reach out for a possible friendship.”
But I’m not sure that’s reasonable because he had an SO. Not so much a friendship but unloading that deep, psychological stuff on a married man.
” Sorry Sis, I refuse to define them as “bad” people (but complex).”
Even if my LO had some good in him, the “bad” outweighed it. It was different than it was with your LO. I never thought of mine as a friend. He wasn’t friend material. I didn’t trust him.
“That’s one thing that makes the Western culture cold/chilly to me. ”
It is. The attitude is very clanish … I have my people in my family, in my house … and I’m not interested in anyone else.
“During my elementary school and teenage years, I wished so much I were born into the loving family of my gfs.”
Me, too! I wished their families would adopt me! 🙂
“It is puzzling for a narcissistic/proud woman to see that some women in the West are so needy, depending on men emotionally, mentally and even financially, as if they were incapable of making a living or standing up on their own mental toes. *sigh*. 😔”
It’s true of some men and women. Can’t be on their own so they want to keep their options open in case the relationship they are in tanks.
“Gee, I’ve learned some painful lessons with a couple of my female bosses. The nicer I tried be, the more bullies I got from them. 👹”
I learned that you’d better not outshine them. You can do well, but only so well.
“Yes, I intuitively thought/believed so and still feel/think so”
I personally don’t believe you can really expect that much emotional support from a married man. He’ll be limited in what he can provide, given that most of it will go to his wife and family.
“I’ve initiated so many LCs and NCs, and each time, he tried to convince me to stay in this “odd” dynamic. When I “returned”, he always said, “there is no bitterness here….” I can’t and don’t understand that if he has SO and LO to meet all his needs, why care at all about my “cold-n-hot” affections”
He enjoyed the attention ? He may be genuinely fond of you. It just doesn’t sound like he has all that much to give.
“Not exactly “exchange” but merely “receive” on his end.”
It doesn’t matter if he responded. It’s still a really personal interaction.
““I feel I am betraying my wife….””
Because they were really personal and he probably thought you were hoping for some kind of EA/PA.
“You think my cptsd would be able to take that chance? 🥶”
I’m not sure what you mean.
“In the movie, he said something like that’s how he had shown his love for his only beloved (instead of feeling depressed or destroyed for 51 years). ”
It sounds a bit ridiculous. Who would put their heart on hold that long for another person?
“Even in the dream with a final rented room, I still couldn’t spend one moment alone with LO!”
That’s how I would have interpreted the dreams. Your own subconscious was blocking you.
“You see what my Unconscious has been doing to me, in terms of dealing with LO and Romeo⁉️ My Unconscious was rarely my friend! 😮💨 — often revealed my deepest desires and then killed them immediately in my detailed vivid, feature “movies” in my dreams… 💭”
Maybe it was your friend. Maybe it was warning you to stay away.
When is your last day with your LO?
Snowpheonix says
Marcia Sis,
“I understand the positive effect it had on you, but I don’t understand emailing someone who you didn’t know well with that kind of personal information, especially because he didn’t respond. “
It happened gradually, not over night, after Dad passed away and then Mom arrived 8 months later. In my previous messages, there was one piece of information inaccurate: when interacting with LO in person, we sometimes did talk about serious stuff. Some written stuff got repeated in front of LO. If Mom irked me, I’d complain to him either in writing or in person. He always patiently listened and sometimes gave a few words of “advice”.
Mostly, he responded at a superficial level, but sometimes, a deeper level especially during that 8 months he was “chasing” me for a “camaraderie”. I treated him as a friend first, that’s how we make a friendship in COO. You treat them like one first, if they do not reciprocate to certain levels, you walk away. In this case with the barrier, with my need to experiment a“therapy”, a platonic friendship was most suitable.
“I would have needed a response. I would have needed a reciprocal amount of sharing on his part to continue with my sharing (or I would have felt figuratively naked).”
At beginning, I wished his equal sharing but he insisted that he would only share his inside with his SO (used to do with other women before he married). Yes, at some point, I felt psychologically naked and expressed so, but that’s what would happen in an effective therapist’s room. Do we need to know our therapist’s personal information or even care?
“I think it ‘s a lot of information to kind of, for lack of a better term, exunload on someone. That’s for a therapist.”
Yes, in a way I“forced” a therapist’s role onto him (he told me he did not have much therapy experiences). But I asked him from time to time whether it’s still okay to email or text. He always said he’d let me know if it becomes a problem. I just needed a real, non-judgmental ear, whose ear could be better than LO’s 👂⁉️ which equaled that of my 2 previous therapists!
“Maybe a close friend, but even then there are limitations to how much the other person can/will listen and be supportive.”
Dear Sis, that’s your personalized American cultural script, I neither knew well enough, nor wished to follow. I began bending rules since I was 4 or 5, and later often made my own personal script in interacting with others — one of my eccentricities. I described myself as an odd ball many times.
“But I’m not sure that’s reasonable because he had an SO. Not so much a friendship but unloading that deep, psychological stuff on a married man.”
Please tell me: who defines what sort of deep, psychological stuff should be loaded unto whom? If one is willing to listen and another confess, and a positive effect is produced, then who is there to say it’s proper or not⁉️ Married or not, one has an independent self/soul first; marriage or singleton is just a social status/concept. Wat does it have to do with a “therapy” between two people, as long as one does not cross some moral lines⁉️
”Even if my LO had some good in him, the “bad” outweighed it. It was different than it was with your LO. I never thought of mine as a friend. He wasn’t friend material. I didn’t trust him.”
I still sense my LO is a friend material, if nothing else could ever develop. I did not trust his wanton/Sensor heart; but if I am able to completely remove my amorous desire, then he could be trusted as a friend — this has been (un)intentionally tested out repeatedly during this LE. That’s another reason I turned down his very subtle PA offer; a platonic friendship is very important to me, ask Sammy who seems to go for it as well, might for different reasons though.
“I learned that you’d better not outshine them. You can do well, but only so well.”
Aya, the catty jealousy! I’d rather work for men, who at least seem not to be jealous of female employees or coworkers. But it could be annoying when they try to amorously hit on you…. My current Chair is very fair, supportive, older woman, but she got laid off, too. 😌
“I personally don’t believe you can really expect that much emotional support from a married man. He’ll be limited in what he can provide, given that most of it will go to his wife and family.”
I knew it and did not expect much from the realistic LO, but from the Phantom of LO created in my head. LO emailbox or social media is just a channel or tool, through which I could actually monologue deeply with this Phantom, who carries LO’s face. My imaginative mind gave the Phantom all scripts that I wished to hear. As DrL states, LO is just a bystander, a literal one in my case. Back in February, I had to explain to him again during our tea and cake, not sure if he truly understood since he just sat there quietly listening.
“He enjoyed the attention ? He may be genuinely fond of you. It just doesn’t sound like he has all that much to give.”
He certainly wants/basks under attention from both women and men, the former particularly! That’s why I define him as a Sensor; he confessed to me in person twice, “I like to be liked!” Culture wise, he seems to be erudite; but I don’t feel he’s that deep. Still, he is always willing to help others in all work-related stuff, patiently listens to whatever they had to say (many chatted at his doorstep, like I did), and gave you that charming smiles. I saw how he used his gaze while chatting with female faculty members (even female students), one of them was hostile to me.
“It doesn’t matter if he responded. It’s still a really personal interaction.”
Much later when I went to a hard NC for two months, he “begged” me in writing, asking me to greet each other at least in public space and telling me to continue sending him missives if I needed. I could not help wonder whatever I monologued might be addictive to him, or the act of receiving message from me was addictive? 🤔
““I feel I am betraying my wife….”” Because they were really personal and he probably thought you were hoping for some kind of EA/PA.”
In my mind, I was not pursuing PA, but a friendship, but in his eyes, it might mean an EA or PA. We talked about this; his mind most likely followed your cultural script, but mine was my own. Therefore, a huge misunderstanding might have taken place. In order to deny my deep pair-bonding desire, I had to disclose twice this effective therapeutical child-parent “play” in my head without ever using the word limerence (I did not know about LE at all back then). I tried to convince him that was all. No other disclosure up to this day.
“You think my cptsd would be able to take that chance?
I’m not sure what you mean.
I meant to initiate a PA with him, and then feel to be abandoned. PA with a married man would not last long… whether EA is reciprocated or not, the results would be DIRE! — I foresaw that clearly.
“That’s how I would have interpreted the dreams. Your own subconscious was blocking you.”
Quite possible!
”Maybe it was your friend. Maybe it was warning you to stay away.”
My Unconscious has that warning function in indeed! I understand and appreciate the Unconscious beneficial functions; but have wished that sometimes IT could let me have some of my desires fulfilled a little bit just in a dream, if they can never be in reality! 😩
“When is your last day with your LO?”
Last class is 5/3, last Final 5/8. Emotionally I still can’t believe it is coming, while intellectually I’ve already accepted it. What’s going to happen inside me❓❓❓ I’ve never been in such a “forced” NC position…. 😨
Marcia says
Snow,
“but that’s what would happen in an effective therapist’s room. Do we need to know our therapist’s personal information or even care?”
I had some personal conversations with my therapist. I still spoke about myself maybe 80-90% of the time but he did share some personal information that I encouraged. It felt weird to me to go in there and ramble on about myself to a blank canvas.
“I just needed a real, non-judgmental ear, whose ear could be better than LO’s 👂⁉️ which equaled that of my 2 previous therapists!”
I couldn’t think of a worse person than an LO, to be honest. You’re limerent for this person. You can’t see them clearly and interact with them naturally. You have intense feelings for them. I’ve been in therapy. In order to talk about myself on a deep or personal level, I couldn’t have been attracted to the therapist. That would have skewed my ability to be honest and authentic.
“Dear Sis, that’s your personalized American cultural script, I neither knew well enough, nor wished to follow.”
I totally disagree. I think that a lot of people would not want to be a friend’s therapist (or anyone’s therapist). That’s too much to ask for. I can listen to someone, I can be encouraging and supportive, but I would expect a reciprocal friendship (which is different than therapy). And ultimately, I have my own life and stuff to take care of. A friend would need to get a real therapist if they needed the kind of help only therapy can provide.
“Please tell me: who defines what sort of deep, psychological stuff should be loaded unto whom?”
The two people in the marriage. Are a lot of women going to be uncomfortable with their husbands being really close with a female co-worker? Yes.
“Married or not, one has an independent self/soul first; marriage or singleton is just a social status/concept.”
It’s a big commitment. It’s a commitment to make another person your top priority. I’m not suggesting that a person has to give up all their friends if they are married but their primary emotional connection will be with the spouse, their primary emotional bandwith will be spent on the spouse (and by extension their family). I have a really good guy friend who got married a few years ago. Did the friendship change? Yes. And expecting as much support from him as I used to get is not realistic. It doesn’t matter if I don’t like or don’t agree with it; I’m not going to be able to fight they system and the way Western society is structured.
“What does it have to do with a “therapy” between two people, as long as one does not cross some moral lines⁉️”
Having an EA is crossing a moral line.
” I’d rather work for men, who at least seem not to be jealous of female employees or coworkers. But it could be annoying when they try to amorously hit on you”
Men are different. They are competitive, too, but more outwardly and obviously than women, and they can sometimes band together with each and not include women in the office. So a boss of either sex can be tricky.
“My imaginative mind gave the Phantom all scripts that I wished to hear.”
Ha! I know that feeling. Mine never followed the script in real life! 🙂
“Back in February, I had to explain to him again during our tea and cake, not sure if he truly understood since he just sat there quietly listening.”
He’s not getting it and I don’t know if a lot of guys would. I’m assuming he thought you were pushing for emotional closeness, and a lot of men (at least in the West) assume physical closeness is going to follow emotional closeness.
“That’s why I define him as a Sensor; he confessed to me in person twice, “I like to be liked!””
He sounds narcisssitic.
” I could not help wonder whatever I monologued might be addictive to him, or the act of receiving message from me was addictive? 🤔”
Maybe he was keeping the door open ? Just in case things ever changed and moved forward?
“What’s going to happen inside me❓❓❓ I’ve never been in such a “forced” NC position…. 😨”
Well, it’s not complete NC, is it? You can still contact him by email?
Marcia says
Snowie,
“Oh, I did feel the same way as you do when individual men approached (some became so giddy fast in front of others…😇 ) and usually I felt “sympathetic” for the guy since they could not arose my amorous interests. ”
I guess I felt sympathetic if I thought he was going to, for example, ask me out and I knew I wasn’t interested. If he was just being friendly and a little flirty, that was fine, but I didn’t want to be put in a position of having to say no. If I thought it things were going in that direction, I didn’t want to be rude but I tried not to be overly friendly.
“In my eyes, Angelina Jolie lacks feminine curves and subtlety….”
That’s why it would be fun for a night. Subtlety has its place, but not once you get into the room with someone. 🙂
“But I’d tease his appetite as well without giving even crumbs.”
Yeah, I usually only teased guys I wasn’t interested in (maybe I liked chatting with them but knew I wasn’t ever going to hook up with them). I don’t do that anymore. It’s what my LO did to me. But I never teased an LO; with an LO, I was serious about wanting to following through. 😉
“I am unable to separate three.”
I’ve never experienced all in one person, I don’t think. Maybe the sexual and emotional but not the intellectual. If I bonded with them intellectually, I wasn’t attracted or found them a bit chilly.
“Seeing her physically declining (thank god, no serious underline medical problems) of course arose my sympathy. ”
Oh, ok. I thought she was declining. I’ve had parents who expected a lot of care from me once they declined physically and I was deeply ambivalent because we weren’t close and they’d bad parents.
“but there is no emotion between us to repair… ”
Is that because there’s no hope for the relationship to get better?
“He’s very emotional, easily having buckets of tears running…almost always depressed, and considered himself “asexual”… “Bullied” by his controlling xSO, a more of “henpecked” husband…”
Oh, ok. Not my type. 🙂
“When it comes to that pair-bonding” drive, the word “decent” needs to be put to sleep by “anesthesia” in most men and women, limerent or not.”
I’m not sure what you mean. You were anesthetized by limerence?
“My deceased Godfather (a very funny, gay, Hollywood-star biographer)”
Who did he write about?
“He was invited to almost every social event among friends and family, because he could simply charm and humor even a baby present.”
He sounds very charming. Like a Truman Capote, who charmed the heck out of people.
“If one turns off phone at 7 or 8pm particularly on weekend evenings, instead of 11 or 12, s/he is usually on a date.”
How did you know his phone was off? Did you call and it went right to voice mail? Yes, I’d say turning a phone off in the evening is for a date. Or if the person has more than one person they are seeing, they don’t want the one they’re on the date with to find out about the others and they turn off their phone.
“I have lived as AP without giving a dime how others viewed or treated me”
You can still be highly valued by the students. But the university can sometimes treat their adjuncts like crap. It’s becoming very difficult for professors to get full-time gigs at colleges and universities in the U.S. People with PhDs are scrambling to make much more than a living wage. It’s ridiculous.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
I just linked my reply in the above thread… the reply buttons are confusing…
Snowpheonix says
Marcia Sis,
You’re so capable of misunderstanding me, which is making me very frustrated! It seems that no matter how much I’ve explained my case, you’d continue looking at my LE from your perspective, your own LE, or a general cultural script and thus making erroneous assumptions. 😌
“I had some personal conversations with my therapist. I still spoke about myself maybe 80-90% of the time but he did share some personal information that I encouraged. It felt weird to me to go in there and ramble on about myself to a blank canvas.”
I started (maybe 6th or 7th ) therapy in dealing with my cptsd a year before I met LO, and it continued during the LE for 4 years… The first therapist knew about LO’s existance but none of us ever heard of LE, so we talked about how to avoid a possible PA; I fired this older women because she insisted on reenacting my parents’ terrifying role. I picked another therapist in the later part of LE without ever mentioning LO, I fried that her at the beginning of 2023, because she was pushing her agenda to my session and she’s not cultural “erudite.” I ended up spending too much time explaining myself.
My point is that I NEVER consciously treated LO as my therapist, but A SURROGATE PARENT. How many times do I need to repeat this??? ⁉️ Therapeutic effect came out as an unexpected “side effect”, since active writing itself w/o reciprocation serves as a form of therapy. It’s vastly different from a journal entry. Writing to you and other ghosts here also serves the same purpose, whether you intended it or not. That’s just how my mind works. I do not need a professional, just non-judgmental ears.
“I couldn’t think of a worse person than an LO, to be honest.”
That’s your opinion, not my experiences, which already WORKED! I do not consider my LO as a bad person, despite his flaws. Each of us has shortcomings.
“You’re limerent for this person. You can’t see them clearly and interact with them naturally. You have intense feelings for them. “
Don’t you think you need to use past tense in your statement here? We are talking about what already happened in the past 6 years, not right now! Did I or my therapist know what Iimerent/limerence is back then? Did I understand what was going on with my head and my “intense feelings” — anyway NOT your conscious pair-bonding desire, but a makeup, surrogate parenthood after my father’s immediate death and Mom’s arrival? It sounds to me that you’re projecting your LE onto mine, despite I’ve repeatedly explained it to you and others here that it was not a usual LE case. 😫
““I’ve been in therapy. In order to talk about myself on a deep or personal level, I couldn’t have been attracted to the therapist. That would have skewed my ability to be honest and authentic.”
Again, I am NOT you! I did not treat LO as my therapist while having two female therapists actively working with me during LE. For me, coming from the East, I could feel totally comfortable talking at a deep level with a stranger therapist if I am not attracted to her (I intentionally avoided male therapists) to a certain degree. I also got quite disappointed seeing they only cared for me professionally once or twice a week; the rest of the week, they simply did not “exist”, and I was left alone often feeling very frustrated without anyone else to seek help from.
Perhaps that’s one reason that all my therapies ultimately “failed” in a sense while I did gain a great deal of relevant knowledge. In COO, “informal therapies” have taken place among friends and trusted confidants for hundreds of years, which also occurred in all cultures. Do please tell me Western therapy model is the best, while mental-illness related pill consumption keeps rising up and up. If it worked for some individuals, they’re lucky. But as we see in LwL, that’s not always the case.
“I totally disagree. I think that a lot of people would not want to be a friend’s therapist (or anyone’s therapist). That’s too much to ask for. “
Again, I NEVER asked LO to be my therapist, why you kept going off with your assumption❓It was in hindsight that I discovered with a surprise that those monologues served as a written “therapy” as a positive side effect, despite my LE symptoms. How could you still misunderstand me this much after so many conversations between us❓
“I can listen to someone, I can be encouraging and supportive, but I would expect a reciprocal friendship (which is different than therapy). “
That’s you, not me in my case. Friendship can and have served as an informal therapy for hundreds of years in many cultures! Please do not underestimate its function! Sometimes, friendship works more effectively than a formal therapy, it depends on clients’ personality and specific mental needs.
“And ultimately, I have my own life and stuff to take care of. A friend would need to get a real therapist if they needed the kind of help only therapy can provide.”
I can’t agree with you more on this. I have suggested that a gf of mine find a therapist when I saw she was in a dire need of a professional help which I could not provide. She found one and was very grateful of my suggestion. I worked with several, but they did not help as much as I needed.
“The two people in the marriage. Are a lot of women going to be uncomfortable with their husbands being really close with a female co-worker? Yes.”
I never met LO’s SO, and did not know what was really going on between them. Just as I stated before, others’ SO is their responsibility, not mine. LO is not a kid, no need for me to tell him what to think or what to do with his family. If he kept listening to my “confession” and responding a little bit, I assumed it was okay. Plus I was not flirting, not expressing my bewildering feelings for him, not hitting on him in any amorous ways, but talking about my profound pains/wounds from my cptsd, triggered off by my grief and stress back in 2017-18.
“Married or not, one has an independent self/soul first; marriage or singleton is just a social status/concept.” “It’s a big commitment. It’s a commitment to make another person your top priority. “
Sis: I was married once with a Westerner, do I need to be told what marriage and its commitment is? I had two Glimmers during my marriage, did I act upon on them? Perhaps you need to give your speech to my LO⁉️
“I’m not suggesting that a person has to give up all their friends if they are married but their primary emotional connection will be with the spouse, their primary emotional bandwith will be spent on the spouse (and by extension their family). “
That’s one reason, I believe, why LO did not emotionally reciprocate me during my entire LE (unknown until last July). As I previously mentioned to you, he often chatted with me about his daughters, wife and activities of their family, and I listened without feeling any jealousy or discomfort — that’s what a good husband was supposed to do! You said you’d feel uncomfortable to listen to such a talk from your LO, but I felt it’s natural!
“It doesn’t matter if I don’t like or don’t agree with it; I’m not going to be able to fight the system and the way Western society is structured.”
I did not and am not actively “fighting with Western system”, there was no need in this LE. My selfish needs lied on a child-parent relationship “repairing”, not a typical limerence’s pair-ponding pursuit! HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO I NEED TO REPEAT THIS❓
“Having an EA is crossing a moral line.”
As I mentioned to Serial Limerent once, I didn’t grown up with the concept of EA in COO, I do NOT consider EA as a moral line! Feel free to accuse me IMMORAL as much as you wish!
Then even if adopting/accepting your concept of this EA, I haven’t obtained my desired, more substantial friendship from LO because he refused to reveal his inisde, to reciprocate my missives, or to show enough personal care for me. Otherwise, I can’t tell whether I would have crossed the line by accepting his PA offer….
Didn’t you want badly to strip off your LO’s clothes? I never had such an urge even we were alone in a hotel room drinking champagne…
“My imaginative mind gave the Phantom all scripts that I wished to hear.” Ha! I know that feeling. Mine never followed the script in real life! “
Here we seem to be on the same page!
“He’s not getting it and I don’t know if a lot of guys would. “
You’re second hand guessing here! His habit has been listening to whatever I had to say but not responding to it at all. Being a half Stoic, I did/do not waste my energy or time to guess his thoughts or feelings, that’s his business. I did what I needed to do and left any consequence to its own course. I ACT, not REACT. I wrote script of my own story, not dictated by the existing cultural script. Leave it or take it has been entirely LO or anyone else’s choice, and I’m feeling more and more at peace with increased inner strength….
“I’m assuming he thought you were pushing for emotional closeness, and a lot of men (at least in the West) assume physical closeness is going to follow emotional closeness.”
Maybe. I simply don’t know, and it does not matter at this point. LO maybe or maybe not one of your “a lot of men in the West”. LO stated once, “you’re very different from anyone I know” which perhaps indicated that he could not expect or assume me to behave like most “usual women” he is used to deal with (his SO is a native European). I don’t know and don’t care.
“He sounds narcissistic.”
Everyone has some narcissistic traits, including you and me. Otherwise, one can’t survive in this highly competitive world. My 35% narcissistic traits are primarily shown on my pride, rebellion, and stubbornness, LO’s is revealed through his vanity, insecurity, ambition(?).
“Maybe he was keeping the door open ? Just in case things ever changed and moved forward?”
I have no idea and it does not look like so at this point. I do not want to or care to guess when one month is left to bit a permanent farewell. I still wish to be his friend and he mine, no matter where he moves. But as you said previously, once a physical distance is set in, people draft apart with physical LC/NC.
“Well, it’s not complete NC, is it? You can still contact him by email?”
Why care so much about a format of LC or NC? If a limerent does not want to go NC internally, you can send her/him to the moon, and s/he would still keep LO in the head.
Yes by email or social media (he sometimes did not check for days), but what to talk about? It has largerly ceased since last June, besides a little bit logistical stuff. Once going to different places for a job and a new life setting, what else could we exchange besides some Tofu-lists of one’s routine life?
That monotony of daily routine would be the most to fear‼️
Marcia Sis, could we rest our sincere, meaningful dialogues for a while? I’m really getting tired after going through such an intense writing ‘therapy” day and night…. Thanks. 😊 🫂
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“Marcia Sis, could we rest our sincere, meaningful dialogues for a while?”
Yes, I think that would be best. Please don’t respond to any more of my posts.
Snowpheonix says
👋🤞
Adam says
Frederico
Miss Marcia has definitely changed some. But as long as Mother Marcia is still here to snap me back in line if I stray into limerence again I am good. Much like she commented about her young son this old man needs someone to be blinders for me for me to focus. When your favorite two things on Earth are women and alcohol you are bound to get in trouble from time to time.
Miss Snowphoenix reminds me of the role my father took in my childhood. My mother doled out the corporal punishment. And with the stupid things I’d done as a youngin I got it a lot. Hence Miss Marcia keeping me in line. It was my father that told me WHY I was getting punished. He helped me understand so that I wouldn’t repeat the same mistake and get punished for it again. Miss Snowphoniex’s in depth and perceptive outlook on life were the same philosophical explanations I’d get my father. Two priceless young ladies for us limerents in this community. LwL’s yin and yang.
Snowpheonix says
Adam,
I do feel my “Yang” energy has merged with his needed “Ying” Chi in Miss Marcia… Now, I need to find it in a realistic man…. I need you to ship me some of your bottles to relax 🫠 my Yang nerves…😬
🤝
Grego says
“When your favorite two things on Earth are women and alcohol you are bound to get in trouble from time to time”
That’s putting it mildly Adam. I’d say you’re in for a world of woe!
I give myself a ‘window’ on Friday or Saturday evenings to drink beer. (I’m Australian😅) Though these day’s I avoid excess and hangovers.
Snowphoenix,
Do you know the heart sutra; form is exactly emptiness, emptiness exactly form? It’s chanted throughout Zen temples (east & west) everyday. I ❤ Kuan Yin (Kannon in Japanese) the goddess of compassion. Who I invoke if I’m feeling down.
Snowpheonix says
Crego,
I’ve heard about that chant, from Mahayana Buddhistic tradition, which defines the emptiness of all phenomena, including basic four Nobel truths that are often taught at colleges here and unofficially passed down among laymen in COO. Zen was evolved and mostly practiced in Japan.
Growing up in an intellectual analytical environment, I have always had a hard time to see “emptiness of all phenomena”, but vaguely sensed and saw hundreds of thoughts and emotions passing through me…. I have been trying to learn how to recognize, express and live with them in more serenity (via Jungian individuation process). With me, everything seems to have been infused with both Eastern and Western ideological traditions and elements; I’m in “a no men’s land”… 😀
I don’t practice any form of chanting or go to any temple, but try to stick to my daily silent meditation (Vipassana) combined with a Jungian style of self-hypnosis to help circulate my often stuck physical energy and clear up mental fogginess/anxiety/density/headache. While not meditating, the most important part for me is how to apply Buddhistic philosophical and psychological concepts in one’s daily life, so I don’t get caught up constantly in immediate reality. My OCD (including LE rumination) is the biggest barrier, since it’s a neurological phenomenon in the brain, rewiring brain through meditation takes time and effort.
https://youtu.be/pi9Xvh-Dva4?si=D8HW_jdhKtZgnmER — ‘How I rewired my brain in six weeks”, BBC News.
I 🩷 Kuan Yin’s image very much! Her compassionate smile and insight of life, is the most beloved, evoked, prayed with in the East. I need to visualize her more when I feel melancholy. I also love Dalai Lama’s book, “The Art of Happiness” — light and fun to read and understand. It’s all about psychological sides of Buddhism in laymen’s daily life.
Adam says
Grego I don’t know how a man could have one without the other. The masochists in me in engaged in an ongoing bet as to which one will kill me first.
ABCD says
Thanks Mila, Speedy, Bewitched, Nisor, LiS and all for your supportive messages. I have glanced at them. Will take a detailed look after I get off from work, and will respond to you all. Cheers!
Marcia says
Adam,
Young son? I don’t have kids. Am I missing the reference? And please don’t call me “Mother Marcia.” No parental titles, please. They’re worse than mam. Now, if you want to call me “Little Mama,” that would be fine. But that has different connotations. 😀
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
I was initially confused, too. I think Adam was saying you were dealing with a little boy inside him, like a mother to a young son, and I was a father figure to this young son.
How ironic, that I was limerent for a parental-figure LO, now I became a “father” myself in the process of removing this surrogate parental LE. 😄 It’s very positive, because it means, I hope, I no long need another parental figure ever in my life….
Adam says
Miss Marcia
I might have been reading comments in another post and confused the topics. A woman mentioned the trails of her young son that was quite playful with the ladies. Something I seem to be struggling with as an old man. I have a hard time navigating this site via phone.
I apologize about the “Mother Marcia” part. I tend to categorize women in my life in three categories; mother figure, daughter I never had, and yes I know I know; damsel in distress. Yall ladies can crucify me now.
On the subject of same sex my wife teases me endlessly I have man crush on Jason Staham. I’m so sorry the man makes consistently great movies. *blushes innocently*
Marcia says
Adam
What does damsel in distress mean? Sexually viable? Because “mother” isn’t sexual and “young enough to be my daughter ” is too young.
Adam says
Its just an in general comparison. Not necessarily meaning a sexual or romantic connotation. Just that I categorize women in those places based on how I interact with them. I see them as one of those three things no matter the kind of relationship it is.
Ladies; a question. I got told recently online that referring to a woman as “gal” is sexist. Is it?
Marcia says
Adam,
OK. I do not want to be in the “mother” category.
I don’t find “gal” sexist but a bit old fashioned.
Lovisa says
“Gal” isn’t sexist, it’s cute and charming. It reminds me of the Texan kids that live across the street. They call me Ma’am. “Yes Ma’am…”. It’s adorable
Sammy says
@Adam.
The topic of nonmenclature is always interesting … and just a tad controversial in the best of times. 😆
In Australia, men are “blokes” and women are “sheilas”. But that’s mainly terms used by older generations. Anyone may be called “mate”, but my mother disliked the term when applied to herself. (Don’t know why – it’s totally Australian).
Younger males probably call themselves “boys”, “the boys”. Maybe “the lads” if someone has a recent English forebear.
Younger females refer to themselves as “chicks” – or, at least they did in the late 90s, when I went to school.
Hot people of either sex may be affectionately referred to as “babe”. But only females can be “chicky babes”. 🙄😁
I’ve had males call me “man”, ” bro”, “brother”, “mate”, “matey”, “chum”, and “sir”. (friendly, non-romantic interactions).
I’ve had gay men call me “mister”. “doll” and “sweetness”. I felt extremely uncomfortable with the latter two. 🙄😆
I’ve had females call me “mate” and “man”. (Friendly, non-romantic interactions).
I can’t remember any specific romantic interactions with women. If a female likes me, she probably calls me by my given name. (Why improve upon perfection, yeah?) 😉
“Champ” and “tiger” are good nicknames for a close male friend. But if a woman calls a man “tiger”, she may like him as more than a friend. (See how complicated life is?)
If I like a male as a close platonic friend, I’ll invent a nickname for him based on a distinctive physical feature e.g. “Whiskers”. (Also the brand of a best-selling cat food here in Australia, making the nickname even more delicious). 😇
I answer to the following: “Your Grace”, “Your Excellency”, “Majesty”, “Your Imperial Highness”, “He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named”, “Commander” and “King”. But if the above are too embarrassing, I will settle for a simple respectful “sir”. 🙂
Adam says
Sammy
I missed this comment. But very informative on the culture of Australia. To which the most I know about it is; everything wants to kill you in Australia.
For me I mostly get called, by men, by my name, sir or bro. I might have been called “mate” by someone not American before. Some guys use champ and chief too. I had a guy I worked with back in the 90’s that called me chief lol I’m like “I not Native American dude”. (Though with my sensibilities in my younger years I probably said Indian.)
“I’ve had gay men call me “mister”. “doll” and “sweetness”. I felt extremely uncomfortable with the latter two.”
Dude I would be uncomfortable if a man or woman used those terms to address me. That’s terms for romantically attached people. I call my wife Momma or Sugar. Now if it is an elderly woman that uses “honey” or “sugar” I give em a pass. But it’s still a bit weird. I only ever address a woman as ma’am or by name.
Now speaking of the female gender in general I all across the board; ladies, young ladies, gals, women and sister. I’d use dames but not many Americans know that is not offensive in it’s origins.
The only other time I have been called out for my ways of addressing women is when I use the term “young lady” to directly address her. Like if I am at the grocery store and the gal checking my groceries out says “have a nice day” and I respond because she clearly is young “you too young lady” is apparently not kosher. Or are Americans just finding things to be offended by. I can’t count how many times I have been address as “young man” by women clearly older than me and it doesn’t bother me at all.
I do have a funny story about age now that I think about it. Way back when I was 20 something and single, two women came to the register I was running, both buying alcohol. The company I worked for then, policy was to card anyone looking younger than 40. And it was prominently plastered all over the store. In the end I ended up carding the daughter but not the mother. The mother was giving her daughter grief the whole way out the store lol I’ll never forget that.
Snowpheonix says
Adam,
You don’t have a rescuer High Priestess in your category? 😳 You forget us Eastern women! Racial discrimination? 👑
What about Guinevere? Which category does she fit? Not a mother, or daughter, or damsel, right? 🫅
Lovisa says
Snowphoenix, I can not figure you out. I keep telling myself we have a culture difference. I ran a 50-mile ultra marathon from start to finish with a Buddhist woman and we got to know each other very well. She’s nothing like you. I just can’t figure it out. Buddhists are Eastern, right?
Limerent nurse says
Adam,
“Gal” isn’t sexist. And it is definitely not sexy, either.
Marcia says
Limerent Nurse,
“And it is definitely not sexy, either.”
Yeah, totally agree. The word is a lady boner crusher. 🙂
Snowpheonix says
Lovisa,
Yes, Buddhism is originated in India and then spread out to many Asian countries. There are many branches of Buddhism, they can be quite different from each other, eg. Buddhism from Southern and Far Eastern Asia are usually taught by two specialized professors at university.
I’ve met and dated some Western Buddhists here, 5% of them might be seriously practice one or another kind of Buddhism. It’s very hard since there is no tradition or passing down knowledge in the West. In what way does your running friend practice?
I’m a dilettante, opportunistic Buddhist and Stoic, a tiny melting pot of many pieces of Western and Eastern philosophies and psychologies to serve my individualistic or “selfish” needs… 🤫
We humans are not fixed beings; everyone is changing and evolving, no one could ever figure out anyone else…🎭 even oneself… 🙃 Please do not distress yourself… 🫂
Adam says
Yeah well having a woman in that category is what landed me finding this place. So I think I need to abolish that category. Well except for Momma being that person.
Thanks to all you ladies for the input on “gal”. I tend to use as a catch all phase. “You ladies/gals/women/young ladies are the best” … kind of usage. At least as an American I don’t expect most American women to know “dame” isn’t an insult and why I don’t use it.
Marcia says
Adam,
“At least as an American I don’t expect most American women to know “dame” isn’t an insult and why I don’t use it.”
I love “dame”! She’s a 1940s femme fatale in a film noir with a gun hidden in her stocking. I’d take dame over “Mother” and “mam” any day.
And I have my own categories — men I want to see in skinny jeans and men I don’t. 🙂
Adam says
Dame Marcia
My favorite line in the movie Sin City starring Mickey Rourke as the character Marv is “It really gets my goat up when guys rough up dames.” I happen to agree with him with him on that.
Marcia says
Adam,
“Dame Marcia”
LOL. I love it! 🙂
“My favorite line in the movie Sin City starring Mickey Rourke as the character Marv is “It really gets my goat up when guys rough up dames.” I happen to agree with him with him on that.”
The movie “Sin City” has the noir look. I was talking about something like “Gilda” with Rita Hayworth. Her husband is about to introduce her to someone. She is in their bedroom. Her knocks and asks, “Gilda, are you decent?”
She says, “Me? Decent? Sure, I’m decent.” 🙂
Lovisa says
Adam, which one am I?
Limerent nurse says
It’s probably a good thing Adam calls everyone else a “gal” except for his wonderful wife, Momma 🤣.
I wish I could just think of every other guy as just some “dude” and just be over this limerence, once and for all!
Adam says
You are the female trinity Miss Lovisa. The mother of good counsel, the daughter that appreciates my efforts and in a way the damsel in distress because you tolerate what a lot of women, well American women, don’t tolerate about me.
Short story time. I went to where she use to work yesterday after my doctor’s appointment. I wanted to talk to my boss and to meet the new young lady we have working for us now in person. I am not big on phone conversations when talking about lengthy matters.
I talked to the new gal a bit, letting her know that we want to do what makes her comfortable and her job as stress less as possible. I told her that we had a bad track record of keeping ladies in the accounting department and that I didn’t want her to not feel welcome and leave. So I told her that if she needed anything or needed a voice to speak up on her behalf to tell me and I would do it for her.
Later I was talking to my boss, before I left to go home, and he told me she asked why I said what I said to her. He said he told her “Because he hasn’t moved into the 21st century when it comes to women.” So, yeah, that’s how the young people see me lol.
Lovisa says
lol! That’s a funny story. Thanks for your kind analysis of which category I fall into. I must say, I don’t understand why a woman wouldn’t want to be looked after by a man. I love it! I would have appreciated that conversation if I were in her position. I’ll share a story too, but it’s completely unrelated I just think you’ll get a smile out of it.
A few nights ago, my husband was in a hurry to eat dinner because he wanted to help our neighbors with something before it got dark. I made French dip sandwiches and since I had a house full of neighbor kids, I made a lot of sandwiches. My husband entered the kitchen and asked if he could eat. Gesturing to the sandwiches, I said, “Sure, just grab what looks good and warm it up.” He picked me up and started walking towards the microwave. I giggled, “Not me, Silly.” He whispered, “But you look so good.” Lol
I hope you have a great day, Adam!
Adam says
I love it Miss Lovisa! That’s not only sweet but also witty. I like your husband already but that was just awesome. I’ve made similar responses to my wife when she says something I can make a pun with. But your husband wins with that alone lol
Marcia says
Ah. OK. Yeah, I don’t want to be a parental figure. 😀
I guess I can’t relate. I really don’t sense the little girl in me. Maybe the teenage girl. 😀
Lost in Space says
Starting a new post down here at the bottom…
Bewitched wrote “If I look back now with a critical eye, I have to question whether this feeling was really only possible when I had enough objective evidence of LO’s affections to be able to be so calm (if you know what I mean). In addition, I am always sure of SO’s affections. So when we feel secure, it is quite easy to be stoic.”
Well put and I agree completely! It’s easy to believe in stoicism and acceptance when things are going relatively well and I feel secure and reassured. It’s a heck of a lot harder to keep applying it and believing it when the feelings of security get tested. That’s where I was at today… it’s been almost 3 weeks now of limited contact, unilaterally imposed by LO without any warning or explanation. I’d been expecting it after our emotional texting session a few weeks back – it felt really good to hear the things she told me and initially it felt reassuring, but at the same time I had a little feeling of “oh crap, she’s gonna feel like she said way too much and there’s gonna be a big pull-back coming”.
And for the first 2 and a half weeks I was doing pretty good with it – it was like “ok, I know what’s going on, I expected it, we’ve done this a lot of times all ready, just chill for awhile and she’ll warm up again soon”. But I guess at this point 3 weeks is at the outer limit of my tolerance level for her avoidance, because today I found myself feeling a lot of distress again.
I don’t feel insecure at this point about her feelings toward me, but I do feel really insecure about the future of our relationship, plus I just miss her and miss talking with her. I know she has strong feelings for me, but what I don’t know is whether she’s currently just taking space for a few weeks to let her feelings recede back to a manageable level, or if she’s convinced herself that our relationship needs to end for good and is planning to really hold herself to it this time, and that’s the question that’s really driving my insecurity right now (and the funny thing is, I know that if it was her instead of me writing on here, everyone would be encouraging her in her efforts to maintain LC with her charming but married coworker 🤣).
This morning I texted her all light and friendly, just asked how her week was going and if she’d like to talk on the phone for a bit this afternoon since I had some unscheduled time. I told myself “ok, I did my action by texting her, my tone and word choice was good and I’m satisfied it’s the best I could do today… that’s the only thing I can control, so now I’ll just let it go and observe what happens next with detached curiosity”. That held up for the first few hours, but by late afternoon when it became clear that she wasn’t going to respond at all, I started feeling really anxious and bad inside. At first I tried to just push through it but the feelings got too strong and I eventually had to just stop and acknowledge them – I actually set myself a timer and said “ok, for the next 20 minutes you can just sit here and ruminate and feel shitty and even cry if you need to, and then at 4pm you’re getting back to work”.
That kind of worked…. That 20 minutes of dedicated rumination time brought the anxiety level down from like a 10 to a 5, and by 4pm I was able to start concentrating on work again, although I was probably only working at 50% effectiveness from then until the time I went home. And now SO is out for the evening and I’m riding an exercise bike to burn off energy while trying to process my feelings by writing here.
So I guess while I certainly wouldn’t consider today a success in terms of managing expectations and emotions, I wouldn’t consider it a total failure either. I know I’m never going to get to a point of not feeling stuff really strongly – I’m way too INFP to ever achieve “detached curiosity” – but I think I’m ok with the idea of feeling my feelings, acknowledging and analyzing them, letting myself just feel them for awhile, and then trying to get on with things.
Tomorrow I’ll just leave LO alone, probably won’t hear from her, maybe will, who knows… but I’ll just stick to the plan of playing it cool, giving her space, being positive toward her in any interactions that we do have, and otherwise try to focus on other things and find positive outlets for whatever difficult emotions I find myself feeling. And just keep reminding myself to focus on what’s in my control and that worrying about stuff outside my control won’t do a damn thing to change anything anyways, and that life is long and 3 weeks of not talking with LO is just like a single paragraph in the book of my entire life.
ABCD says
Hi LiS. Yes, your post and Bewitched’s post really resonates with me as well. From my own experience, being stoic is also dependent on how my last LO interaction went. Much harder being stoic if it was less than warm.
Recently, I have tried to be more confident and outgoing in my LO interactions. I feel better post interactions, and I sense that LO also feels good if I am being confident and being chatty(by my standards), as she seems more chatty as well with warm vibes. Most of our interactions are in a group setting with SOs in attendance, so it seems to keep things in check. So this is what I’m going to try and do now – meet warmly and confidently whenever there is a chance.
LiS: I’m sorry you’re not feeling so good. I have gone through both issues that you described. Was NC for 6 weeks, trust me, you will feel better soon. I also get these super anxious moments, but they pass. Pretty scary to deal with in the moment, for sure. Sending message and not getting a response also hurts big time. Try to take your mind off it, I’m sure you will feel better.
All the best – LiS, Bewitched, and all LwL friends, remember we’re in this together!
Bewitched says
Dear ABCD and LiS,
It appears as though we all know what strategies to adopt, we just need to put them into practice and maybe even develop strategies for staying on task with our strategies. Very metaphysical 🙂 And Dr L is probably shaking his head right now, as the penny slowly drops, that what we really need is Purposeful Living – LOL.
But yeah, if the strategy you’ve outlined (LiS) is to rely more on deriving satisfaction from our intrinsic drivers and just doing what is right and being grateful for the good things that may happen along the way, rather than letting things outside our control (extrinsic drivers) dictate how we feel, then we do really need a little bit of help to cultivate that. Something that helps us when our convictions waver and weaken, as they do when we are not feeling as resilient. Its easy to be stoic when we feel secure, right? But what about when our feeling of security wavers?
And what might those strategies be? I have been thinking a lot of self worth and cultivating this. I think that opening my mind to literature or art (or music, or nature) that helps me look outside myself is a very good start. When I feel low, I try to do that, so that I don’t fall back into the trap of ruminating on things outside of my control. So yeah, strategies would be anything that lets you take back control of your mind and self worth, I suppose, and thy will be different for everyone. I am not just taking about distraction, here, but more fundamental time spent reflecting.
By the way, neither of your will associate that ‘Take Back Control’ slogan with recent events in a particular European country, but Imho will know exactly what I am referring to (wink!).
Happy Easter guys. Its the traditional annual time of year for renewal. Let’s all try to go for it!
Lost in Space says
I woke up this morning and started to prepare breakfast, then remembered it was Good Friday. I haven’t been very observant of church traditions for quite awhile, but I decided to fast today. Maybe a day of abstaining from food will be a good reminder that I do actually have self control and the ability to go without things I think I need, and every time I feel hunger pangs throughout the day I’ll use that as a cue to spend a moment on gratitude for all the good things I have in my life.
Happy Easter to everyone!
Bewitched says
Good Idea LiS!
We are complicated and somewhat spoiled organisms. Reminding ourselves of that is helpful, no matter your religion or none.
You’re going to enjoy every morsel you eat tomorrow.
Happy Easter!
ABCD says
Hi Bewitched. Yep, you are absolutely right that it is much harder being stoic when one is feeling down. That is the challenge then – isn’t it. Arts or music could help immensely. I am seriously thinking about picking up a musical instrument. This, apart from my running/workouts sounds like a good step forward. One can challenge all these limerent thoughts towards sports/music. This makes solid sense.
“Taking back control” – great mantra!
Happy Easter to you and to all the lovely friends here at LwL. Don’t know where I would be without y’all.
Imho says
Hi Bewitched, Mila (aka ladies that lunch) others very welcome too!
Starting new post here as the conversation was getting ‘skinny’ , unlike my current waistline.
Yes good to post here as a distraction as and when needed, however sad it may seem, because others here understand. As the last working day before Easter, I genuinely believe my LO had the expectation I would reach out but of course it could be in my head.
Bewitched, I also checked back and I too messaged here on LwL on Christmas day ! I was bit shocked ! Under the guise of helping others…
Mila, you wrote…”fighting and forcing myself, or counting how often he initiated contact and how often me etc., made me feel bad and let me ruminate much more, and didn’t really help”
Yes I get this, forcing NC or LC does actually bring much more anxiety and sadness too, and is unatural.
As you said your foundation of friendship is a factor and you should not have to second guess your communications.
For me, I guess I just know I need to be more conscious because (1) I never want to appear needy. (2) too much contact can potentially bring some contempt, at worse, or I become a bore, at best. (3) to avoid any danger of it heading into an EA.
So I guess it’s a regulation to prevent me from developing serious attachment issues more than I probably already have.
I need to do the self worth thing Bewitched talks of and not doing something interesting in life ( like sky diving ) for myself and not to impress LO.
The more contact we have the more things I identify like songs or music or funny stories that LO would love or get the joke. Which is ok up to a point with any friend, but I need to keep it in check.
Oh yes! And I’m really bad hitting the sweet stuff for the last few weeks too. I need to chop up some sweet veg and fruit and nuts each morning as Bewitched advised, so I reach for that first!
Maybe this easter weekend we deplete the chocolate stocks and then fresh start next week !
Mila says
Hi Imho,
Skydiving! Don’t know if it would impress LO, but would definitely impress me. That’s not my cup of tea, I have to say, don’t have any ambition in this direction…
„1) I never want to appear needy. (2) too much contact can potentially bring some contempt, at worse, or I become a bore, at best. (3) to avoid any danger of it heading into an EA.“
While I understand 1) and 3) is of course the sensible thing, I‘m quite interested in 2) because that’s something that wouldn’t come to me as a point. Why contempt? I mean, other people who do have regular contact with you , like your SO for example, surely don’t think you are a bore or feel contempt simply because they see you often?
I think you seem a lovely person, you sure get even lovelier when contact gets more.
My LO texted today, short exchange etc, now I‘m not sure again if he wants low contact or not and if he thinks anything at all about us.
Imho, do you also feel a relation between sweet craving and LO business?
But I‘m quite busy now, on a trip with the kids and FOO. And hope a bit that it will help that there’s no sweets drawer here…
Imho says
aww thanks Mila, nice words you gave me ☺️
I guess I want to be liked. Who wants a bore at a party ! Also too much time together can lead to tension and running out of new things to share . I guess I want to stay a bit intriguing!
And yes, as I’m more reflective and distancing from limerence I turn to comfort food. When I’m in full limerence I’m not, partly as it drives me to be more vain.
Anyway, just enjoy your trip Mila with your family and take a break from all of this !
Trifles says
Not sure which blog to post under… But need some support for NC. What’s telling is that 2 weeks into this long distance LE, I googled “how to get over a crush”. After about 4 months, I finally found this site.
So basically for the whole duration of this LE I’ve been, instinctively, trying to go NC. My best effort NC, after what I felt was a rude ghosting in response to my flirting, was 3 weeks. Mostly I can only manage 2 or 3 days – pathetic, I know! Intermittently I think I’m in control. After all, I’ve been able to lure men in with text flirting before, and I assumed that since I’m not a teenager anymore, I would be in better control of my emotions! And over time I got this LO to go deeper into the rabbit hole. But I’m definitely not in control when my mood depends on him.
We started off flirting but for some reason I almost instantly warned him to be careful – he hasn’t flirted since. And all I’ve hoped and tried for ever since was to get him flirting again. 🙈
So I’ve been chasing the high of that first hit – and I know I’ll never get it again. He’s of course married, which I didn’t find out until I was in too deep. Any support appreciated!
WhoompThereItIs says
There are so many good resources on this website. The more I read the more I can’t actually believe that others are feeling exactly the same as me at the same time. Although circumstances vary somewhat, feelings and struggles are shared and it’s such a comfort to know that this is actually a thing and that I’m not going mental (or at least if I am, I’m in good company).
Look for the benefits of no contact blog. I’m so convinced I’m going to succeed and then I get to the point where I think of a really cool and obviously urgent message to send. Then I catch myself. I was really bothered by something yesterday and nearly text asking what he meant by his recent sarcastic comment to me after 3 weeks of NC. Of course the initial message was instigated by me and I had expected a how are you, its been a while response. Instead I got something more like oh its like you’ve never left. Ouch. The only reason I didn’t message was because I was sitting next to my SO. Now thats messed up.
No contact, thinking of the impact on family/SOs, the ultimate knowledge that the fall out from the interaction despite the initial high will always make you feel crap, oh and recollections of interactions may vary. It may be mutual but maybe not (oh no!). I’m no expert. I’m just fighting this ongoing battle like the rest. If I’m tempted to write a text I write it somewhere else in draft and go back to it when I feel better. I also come on here to read about other experiences and look for support and advice!
Trifles says
Whoomp, thank you so much for your support! I can relate to your struggles with only SO being nearby stopping you from texting.
“If I’m tempted to write a text I write it somewhere else in draft and go back to it when I feel better.” You wouldn’t believe how many drafts I’ve made 😂 – thank god I can refrain from sending – until finally I broke down 2 weeks ago and spooked him, because it apparently came from nowhere… Well, it was bound to happen after all my misery – trying not to blame myself.
Sending you strength to stay strong!
ABCD says
Hello Trifles. Welcome to LwL. Yes, by going NC, you are on the right track. Since you had a long distance LE, you will need to try to control social media interaction with LO. Try not to send messages for some time – couple of days, a week, two weeks. Let us know how you feel after doing this. My guess is that you will feel better. Good luck! Staying away from LO on social media is hard, but you can do it!
WhoompThereItIs says
Anyone else wake up with actual stomach pain/anxiety missing LO? Knowing contact/friendship/telationsho whatever it is is over? How long does it last? (Asking for a friend….)
ABCD says
Hello Whoomp. I do get anxious every now and then over LO over a bunch of stuff – a perceived cold interaction, jealousy, no interaction. Generally, the anxiety is short lived and goes away on its own. One can try deep breathing, meditating, going out for a quick walk, crying it out if its too strong. I don’t really know how long these anxiety episodes last, as I guess one can only work through them, when they come. They should reduce in number and intensity with time, hopefully. Good luck to your friend.
Limerent nurse says
Hi Whoomp,
Yes, I did. My limerent experiences were mutual in that they we in real life with actual people who expressed their interest in me, one way or another. The most painful ones while being married. And each experience in hind sight probably lasted two years from start to finish in terms of up and down emotions, and then eventual freedom from pain and obsessive thoughts once the no-contact finished the deal.
I remember my heart actually aching, lots of secret crying, and mostly anxiety when things were coming to a head. They made me literally want to leave my marriage, and that was where most of my anxiety was from: the inner turmoil of what I felt like I wanted to do (leave marriage), and what I knew/really wanted to do (stay in marriage).
I don’t know if the pain or anxiety are in any way related to the amount of time you were with that limerent person… it could be.
I have learned that I have a tendency for chronic limerence. I have been like this since childhood: constantly having crushes on boys for the longest time, some secretly, some mutual. And I experienced virtually no childhood trauma. I am an INFJ personality, and I already felt like a bit on the fringe because of it.
Your pain is real, it hurts, I know it. 💔 But just keep going, and it should fade away into peace again. I feel like limerence is a tunnel that we just have to keep walking through until we get to the end of the experience.
I find a lot of help journaling and praying about my thoughts and feelings. I personally do not enjoy social media so that is not my weakness. And I have learned that I am not stronger than limerence once it blooms and is in full force. I have to actively choose not to engage with men whom I perceive to be potential limerent experiences from this point on.
I hope this helps, Whoomp. I’ll be one of your limerent friends 🧡
WhoompThereItIs says
Thank you. This is helpful and I sound similar to you and your experience. I am also INFJ and didn’t know that was a common thing until we all seem to be on this site 🙈
I haven’t come off social media yet but that’s the next step now that I have deleted all past messages (almost a years worth of texts). I’ll miss the connections I’ve made with old contacts but truth is all social media posts are done in the hope LO sees it, and I get such a high if there is any reaction and a sting if there’s no acknowledgement. Which is very unhealthy. I also fel a sting if he responds to mutual friends posts. I find myself looking to see if LO is online too. Not that it will achieve anything. Find myself also looking at LO SO and social media has normalised super creepy behaviour and I want no more part of it! It enhances anxiety and is also addictive. I’ve recently read the blog on here about social media and it is me to a tee. No more now. I won’t be defeated by this 💪
Limerent nurse says
Sounds like you got this, Whoomp! 😊 I am glad you are finding what works for you, and being honest with yourself.
ABCD says
Good job Whoomp! The highs and stings are all too familiar. Yes a good idea to delete past messages. Shared groups are also a challenge. One technique that has worked with me is resisting the urge to check social media that often. You could even mute such chats. As of now I am handling the social media part better than before. Good luck you got this!
Grego says
Hiya Sammy,
I just wanted to introduce myself as a fellow aussie and say ‘g’day’.
I’ve read some of your posts and been impressed with your erudition and insights.
Re: how we address each other in this country. A friend of mine who I haven’t seen for a long time, used to address guys he was attracted to as ‘sir’. He’d see a hot guy playing pool in a pub and say, oh, good evening, Sir! i found it quite bizarre.
Chris, lived with his elderly parents in a green leafy suburb on the northern beaches of Sydney. He’d never really come out to his parent’s, though he told me re his mother; ‘of course she knows’. His mother was a real tough matriarch and was the boss in that household.
Aussie guys like to take the piss out of each other, especially if they’re on a drinking session. I get into the spirit of the occasion, but these days for me ‘less is more’ re the drinking aspect.
I found this site, when I found out the unrequited romantic obsessional affliction I have has a name – limerence.
I’ve had two LE’s with difficult women which using Nietzsche’s famous maxim ‘ what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger’. Well, that wasn’t really the outcome in my case. Though possibly I’ve been able to learn a lesson from a very painful experience.
Are you interested in philosophy? I’ve come across a south Korean born, German philosopher named Byung-Chul Han. There’s some stuff on youtube which explains his philosophy. He has lots of books which are very slim, so don’t take a long to read. Though they are dense with ideas. One of his most well-known books is ‘the burnout society. I’ve just recently purchased ‘the agony of eros’. Which I haven’t finished but recommend. ‘For Han…love requires the courage to accept self-negation for the sake of discovering the Other’.
Sammy says
@Grego.
“I just wanted to introduce myself as a fellow aussie and say ‘g’day’.”
Hello Grego. Nice to meet you. 😛
“I’ve read some of your posts and been impressed with your erudition and insights.”
Thank you. Our country is famous for its lack of culture. My loved ones say that the only things in our household that contain an ounce of culture are me and the half-eaten tub of Greek yoghurt in the fridge. 🙄 But there’s a few closet highbrows wandering about the place, trying to blend with in the riffraff … sorry, bogans, … sorry, salt of the earth. 🙂
Didn’t poor old Germaine Greer in her glittering heyday have to flee to England to have her genius properly recognised? I think she’s since returned to our shores, though, in her glittering dotage. Wonderful woman, by the way. I just adore everything about her. And, on my God, that Aussie twang in her voice! 😉
“Re: how we address each other in this country. A friend of mine who I haven’t seen for a long time, used to address guys he was attracted to as ‘sir’. He’d see a hot guy playing pool in a pub and say, oh, good evening, Sir! i found it quite bizarre.”
Shush! Don’t tell anyone. That’s something us benighted exiles from polite society are trying to keep on the down low… 😆
Actually, I think “sir” is erotic even in heterosexual contexts. Lizzie calls Darcy “sir” in “Pride and Prejudice” and all females (including mistresses) would be obliged by custom to address male members of the British royal family as “sir”.
“Aussie guys like to take the piss out of each other, especially if they’re on a drinking session.”
I think a lot of working-class Aussie males “flirt” like crazy with each other. But it’s not a romantic thing or a drunken thing. It’s more of a camaraderie thing – or a drunken camaraderie thing, to be precise. 😆 A totally different kettle of fish to limerence. (I associate limerence with heavy romantic fantasy/emotional pain i.e. constant longing for someone one can’t pair-bond with).
I wonder if gay men get themselves into so much trouble, infatuation-wise, because they’re a bit sheltered growing up (too much Mummy influence, not enough Daddy influence) and haven’t bothered to learn the nuances of their country’s masculine culture? I.e. gay men sometimes have trouble knowing when flirting is for fun and when flirting is for real. Straight Aussie men flirt with each other “for fun”, and it confuses the heck out of gay men until gay men catch on.
If a man play-flirts with me, I like the title “boss” – especially when I don’t happen to be his real-life boss. Calling another man “boss” is very flattering, as it suggests said gentleman is higher up in the male hierarchy. All men secretly want to be on the top of the male hierarchy – an absurd but all-too-real obsession with social status that most females just can’t understand. (Maybe a male pride thing?) 🤔
“His mother was a real tough matriarch and was the boss in that household.”
This female archetype is more my maternal grandmother than my mother. She ruled the men in the family, but she ruled the women in the family too. Patrick White, Australia’s only Nobel Laureate for Literature, observes that Australian women are different from the women of other cultures in that Australian women have a very pronounced masculine streak.
In White’s view, Australian women are tough, dominant, hardy, resilient, no-nonsense, etc, etc – all the things that Australian men usually are not. Australian men are passive compared to the men of other countries/cultures. That might be our convict cultural heritage shining through. My grandmother mowed her own lawn because only she could “do it the right way” despite my father’s standing offer.
Australians love the American pop singer Pink. I think Pink represents the perfect woman to Australian men and also to Australian women – she’s so spunky (in both senses of the word)! She’s from the States, but she embodies the spirit of Australian femininity so well. (She’s a tomboy, but she looks hot while she’s being a tomboy). 😆
“I’ve had two LE’s with difficult women which using Nietzsche’s famous maxim ‘ what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger’. Well, that wasn’t really the outcome in my case. Though possibly I’ve been able to learn a lesson from a very painful experience.”
Ach. Sympathies, sympathies. 🤔
Snowpheonix says
@Trifles,
I have not followed every new poster’s story keenly, so from pieces of information you provided here, I assume that you’re dealing with a married, co-worker (or frequently seen) LO and you wanted to go NC but somehow unable (how long is your LE?)❓ Please allow me be straightforward (my infamously rude Q&A style in LwL) and to ask some questions here (no need to answer me.)
“And that made me feel better. I’ve at times felt like I’m putting on a one-woman show, although other times we have great give-and-take banter.”
What was a purpose of your“one woman show” and how did it make you feel”? From your “great give-and-take banter”, what did you “take” at physical, emotional and mental levels? Do you like to have more of them?
“So what I need to vent about: I did what I planned to do all along , even though I tried to fight against it by writing here. I had to test if I had really spooked LO last time (2+ weeks ago) with my emotions. “
Your “test” is your expectation here — you want to know whether he has been spooked with your emotions; that’s not expectation-free.
(Before NC, I had let him know I was upset with how little response I was sometimes getting and that he should rather set me free if he felt that way than keep me hanging.”
Why do you want to go NC? Willingly from your side or forced upon because you “were upset with how little response I was sometimes getting”? What and how did you expect/want him to respond? — those are huge expectations.
You expected/wanted LO to set you free? You disliked that he kept you hanging, — that’s another expectation. Some Narc/Sensor LOs would always keep their admirer limerents hanging around them to boost their vanity or fragile ego. I do not know your LO, you’ll have to evaluate what kind of person he is in reality, not in your head.
“I suppose he tried to reply in a friendly yet firm way saying that he was just very busy at the moment and reminding me he was a family man, but it came across like he was just basically tolerating me.) “
If “basically tolerating” you was not what you wanted or liked, then what was your wish/expectation of how he would treat you? Having his family as a part of him, such an expectation/wish possible? How much you would compromise if he goes just a little bit beyond “basically tolerating”?
“I couldn’t back out after that point so I told him (nicely?) I had to go NC because it was too one-sided.”
I understand your reason for going NC. It sounds like if it was not “too one-sided, you would not go NC, right? What “being a bit two-sided” would look like in your story? – that’s certainly an expectation.
“But now I sent him a friendly, light-hearted text on Easter. And I can congratulate myself – I was right, he was spooked. “
Okay, you got your validation through a negative reaction towards your LE emotions; what are you going to do next? Sadly or gladly?
“Or if I spin it a nicer way: he’s helping me to hold NC. “
What has happened to your own will or logic? Your NC with LO is depending on LO’s reactions? What would happen if he eventually replies your Easter greeting or simply drop you another friendly text?
“He didn’t open it (though there are ways to open it and not have it show… So worse: he’s showing me he’s not opening it), no response, no reward. “
It sounds like your mind is perhaps hanging on LO’s thoughts and emotions a bit much? I have been there at the beginning of my LE 6 years ago, so I knew what it was like.
“My worst fear was that he thinks I’m crazy for getting so emotionally wrapped up, and this might mean he does. “
Your “worse fear” of his possible negative opinion about your emotions shows your expectation — he would not think you’re “crazy”.
“But because I was kind of expecting this, I don’t even feel humiliated. I’m not even angry. So that’s positive? “
That sounds Stoic. If these two emotions are indeed true to yourself, then your reaction is positive to you, which only matters!
“I will have to remember this empty feeling.”
Then if truly Stoic, one would NOT feel “empty”, but a substantial Win — winning in your evaluation of LO’s behaviors and possible motivations, and in your determination to go NC and positive emotional reaction.
“I suppose I had to test the waters to see if he would respond or not.”
Again that “test the waters to see if…” was an expectation.
“But now that I know he won’t, NC should be easier. One step forward… NC day 1 again.”
NC is never easy in any kind of LEs, unless we limerents truly want it internally. I’ve lost count how many times I went LC or NC over 6 years (because they were “forced” upon situationally), so please be prepared for a series of setbacks.
I wish you a gradual success step by step! 💪
Trifles says
Hi Snowphoenix, and thank you for your considerate response and excellent questions that really made me think! And sorry, I didn’t mean to aim all of my commentary on you, though it came out that way! I’m not yet familiar with the posting etiquette here yet, and couldn’t find my previous posts. Hence I found your comment in the ‘latest replies’ and it resonated.
To summarize: I met LO briefly but we live far apart and texting ensued. The texting started off with flirting (the jury is out on who started it) but for some reason (instinct) I told him to be careful. (Later: 2 months in, I found out he has SO. I have a long-dead relationship.) So to him it must have seemed like friendly conversation thereafter (for months). To my limerent mind it was of course torture, and I tried early on, several times to quietly go NC. I even tried to make him make the decision – by trying to make him admit that he’s married (and let him use that as an excuse to say goodbye to me, because I sure wasn’t ready to say goodbye on my own!). He didn’t take the bait, instead my comment was greeted with… silence. I was insulted and went NC for several weeks. But of course I couldn’t stay away. (To be fair to him, he might have just assumed that I knew all along he was married.)
You would think that NC would be easy in a long distance LE, but it hasn’t been.
I also tried transference (before I even knew of limerence or that transference was a tactic for it!) If only I had found a willing and able text-flirting partner I’m sure I would have been long over it! 😉
Now finally, on to (some of) your questions.
“Why do you want to go NC? Willingly from your side or forced upon because you “were upset with how little response I was sometimes getting”? What and how did you expect/want him to respond? — those are huge expectations.”
Originally I felt the LE was giving me too much agony because of the one-sidedness. My previous NC attempts didn’t work, and my emotions were pent up, so after many months, I finally burst out with the “set me free” part (i.e.tell me to bugger off) that I described. As for expectations, I knew that once I put my “crazy” out there (“wah, this is so one-sided…”) there would be no good solution so I would have to say goodbye to him. So I was avoiding this as long as possible, but finally I felt I had no choice.
He has been nothing but gracious and friendly (if a bit ambiguous at the start), so I feel guilty now for pulling him into this.
“What was a purpose of your“one woman show” and how did it make you feel”? From your “great give-and-take banter”, what did you “take” at physical, emotional and mental levels? Do you like to have more of them?”
I had high highs from his attention. Like some others have said, I was inspired to try new things, learn new things with the goal of impressing him… Sad, I know, but it gave me new purpose. And of course I wanted more (MORE!), that’s why I was so let down when he went ‘cool’.
“If “basically tolerating” you was not what you wanted or liked, then what was your wish/expectation of how he would treat you? Having his family as a part of him, such an expectation/wish possible?”
Unrealistic expectations all the way! Of course, it was not “just tolerating” the whole time, that was just how his last comment came across to me.
At first I thought he was divorced, then I figured his marriage must be on its last legs. Hope was like Bob DeNiro’s character in Cape Fear: it just could not/would not be killed! I even told him my last move was a bit of self-sabotage (because nothing else helped).
“What “being a bit two-sided” would look like in your story? – that’s certainly an expectation.”
To be honest, in the beginning I thought I was aiming for a little adventure, a quick roll in the hay. I didn’t recognize limerence in myself (maybe I’ll be wiser next time!). But because he wasn’t that easy (darn ambiguousness!), I had to take the long route – and managed to only get myself in too deep…
“It sounds like your mind is perhaps hanging on LO’s thoughts and emotions a bit much?”
You are right. That’s a fault of mine: care too much what others think (though the same quality has positives)
“I wish you a gradual success step by step! 💪”
Thank you for your support and especially the food for thought!
Snowpheonix says
Trifles,
My questions are for yourself. I’m glad you have all clear answers and consequential solutions all the way along…
The tough challenge is how to deal with our old issues that existed before LO even appeared…
I got mine more than three quarters solved during my lengthy LE.
Hope you’re doing and feeling better in your NC?!
Trifles says
LOL, when I reread your post after posting my reply, I noticed (more clearly) the “no need to answer me” part! But it was very cathartic to think about, post, and continue thinking about my answers. They’re not all clear, though I have thought about them a lot – might just be my style of writing (or some defensiveness)…
You’re right about the underlying issues. The longer this LE went along, and the more I read about here, the more I understood that this is all about me, not about LO at all. (Though I would still like to have him!) The hard part is now setting out to look for my purpose.
Sounds like your LE was a huge learning experience for you, though sorry that you had to suffer so long for it.
And thanks, I’m feeling ok. Got hit with some pangs of sadness earlier today, but my short-term tactic is now to distract myself here to avoid ruminating about LO!
Nisor says
Hello John,
I can’t find your last post, the thread has become too long!
But I remember you mentioning LO’s last words and how they keep lingering in the air of uncertainty…
“…it doesn’t need to be good bye, you never know what’s going to happen.”
Her words confuse me , it’s like she didn’t want to say goodbye or lose you altogether, and a possibility that her relationship with her boyfriend may not work… but then ghosted you. There’s a mystery in her wordings, enigmatic? So hurtful! No wonder you can’t have closure, and don’t feel like trusting people after all you did for her. I wouldn’t either. It created a lot of uncertainty. Uncertainty is what fuels limerence the most. That uncertainty is what’s killing me : first, when LO said in our last conversation that ‘ he had never before loved another woman more than me, and that he ‘wanted me to know that’, yet , he went ahead and married in short order, I think six to seven months after the breakup. It gives me a lot of doubt and confusion. I don’t know if he married on Rebound , or maybe he found the one, and got madly in love.(he told me he divorced her ten years later because she was too materialistic…(ten years to found out how materialistic she was…). Or maybe he married a young girl , his brother wife’s niece, they have brought her for him from their country of origin in Europe . He has taken me to his brothers house and I met the girl, she was very young, and LO told me that they brought this girl for him to marry!( I was not if his ethnicity.). I didn’t pay any attention or asked him what he thought of it because I was very secured in our relationship.
Another uncertainty is that after I talked to him after 49 years of total silence, he told me: ‘ you’re not patient, have you waited a little longer, our lives would have been different now, it was not meant to be, it was fate or maybe God.’ I don’t know what to make out of this and it doesn’t let me take a decision to put entirely the blame on him for the break up, and get it over with. These two thoughts that one time is my fault and other time is his, gets me very confused and don’t let my mind rest at ease. Perhaps I feel guilty, but then again I gave my hundred percent to the relationship. If he had asked me to die for him I would have done it. Only once one can love like that in a lifetime. So, you and me are in the same predicament and no possibilities to solve the riddle…
I have to come up with some plausible narrative to put this LE to rest or I’d go to my death bed with his name in my mouth! How horrid that would be! After all, I’m glad I could love like that, and that he was a very special person in my life that I never want to forget, and no one else can have that part of me I gave him.Like Alfred Tennyson said: “Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.” I just think it was a friendship he was not able to appreciate at its proper value. If only I could convince myself of that, I think I could live with that…
Have a great day and don’t give up, never give up.
John says
Hi Nisor,
Yes, her actions that whole last weekend have left me perplexed. She had an easy out twice. The night arrived after talking for hours and she asked my plans and I said I planned to head back home in the morning. “You’re here, might as well stay the weekend and hang out.” Playing the song. Do me a favor and look up the Lyrics to Garth Brook’s The Dance, driving around on Sunday and asking my opinion of her new fiancé saying my opinion mattered. Then the final failed goodbye. The ghosting made no sense. It was unnecessary. She could have answered the phone and said goodbye anytime as well.
I understand your uncertainty. I completely get your feelings. In a way, you had more as it sounds like you at least had a romantic relationship I never did but it makes his response more hurtful in a way. I do hope you find a way to take the blame away from yourself. I’ve had no luck and never cast the blame on my LO. I’ve always considered myself the villain and at worst she is an accomplice.
Over the past three+ decades I’ve had many narratives. The two primary are that she just put up with me. I think that reflects the damage to my confidence the most. She could have told me to stop calling or visiting any time and certainly had no need to tell me I could visit for two weeks upon my return. The other is that her SO wanted to make sure I was out of her life. I’ve no doubt that her Dad was an angel whispering in my favor. My sending flowers as her SO attempted to get her back and having her Dad say “if you are supposed to be Mr nice boyfriend how come she has a sailor half way around the world who never misses the opportunity to let her know he’s thinking about her”.
Unfortunately, I was very young and as you’ve pointed out as in your case it was a once in a lifetime love. I probably needed more help to get through it than I got. As horrible as it sounds I expect she will be in my head until the end. I know I’ll never see her again. That makes me extremely sad when I think of it so I escape to my ruminations.
It sounds in your case that an arranged marriage got in the way. I’m almost the opposite as I had full support of her Dad, just her heart was not to be mine. Yet we both have the same uncertainties.
I fully expected to feel strongly about someone again but I don’t think I could. So I look back on those memories of that year and a half and have trouble letting go because I’ve yet to top it and don’t expect to.
I do truly hope you can lessen or get rid of your feelings for your LO and be happy.
The feelings you conveyed in your last post sounded like words I could have written. Usually it’s me trying to explain to those who have never experienced it.
Hope you have a wonderful night.
Thanks for sharing your experiences,
John
Nisor says
Hi John,
The song, The Dance” has meaningful lyrics that matches your goodbye situation.
“ For a moment, all the world was right/ but how could I have known/that you’d ever say goodbye.
And now I’m glad I didn’t know the way it all would end/ the way it all would go/ our lives are better left to chance/ I could have missed the pain/ but I would have had to miss the dance, etc etc.
Do you listen to it often? Or does it make you cry, therefore you avoid listening to it?
My Song, that reminds me of LO, is “ Eternally “, Engelbert Humperdinck , the english singer. We were on a date in a nice restaurant with a pianist, and LO asked me if I had a special request, and I said this song. “ I’ll be loving you eternally, with the love that will last eternally… etc I love the melody and soft romantic rhythm. Never thinking that this love will really last forever…
My eyes are misty now remembering…
Yes, I had an “exclusive “ relationship. He told me: “ we’re going exclusive… by the fourth date. I didn’t know what “exclusive “ in a relationship “ really meant, but I understood that from now on we were going steady, not seeing anyone else. From then on it really got serious and he became my SO. We’re so much in love. We worked at the same place, but didn’t talk at all during working hours, except when we went out for a date. The people in the office knew we were going out together, but we gave no opportunities for gossip. We were both single, we had nothing to hide. I’m a very private person, and this blog is my only outlet to express my feelings of discomfort…
The relationship ended because I ended it. I’ll tell you later on why and how.
When it comes to your girl/LO, she could have called you to tell you not to bother anymore because her SO was jealous of you. Maybe he was jealous. You never can know what goes on in someone else’s head.
You say: “ I had no luck and never cast the blame on my LO. I’ve always considered myself t villain and at worst she is an accomplice.” Why do you consider yourself a villain? You’re a young man who happened to love this girl and she didn’t reciprocate, but made you believe she could keep a friendship with you, not perceiving how deeply in love you were with her. She misread you, or made believe you’re a strong man who could come out of it just like that… it was all wrong ! Either she had no experience on love affairs or didn’t care whose heart she broke. I understand you have her on a pedestal like a goddess, but sometimes we have to seek the truth and the reality of the situation. We cannot be on denial all the time. I also have LO on a pedestal he doesn’t deserve if I look at things more realistically. The good things are no doubt were there but the bad things we have to recognize them also, to have a balance of why things happened. We only know for sure our side of the story, there’s always the other side we will never know. And this , “not knowing “ is what keeps us stuck in one place and one person.
The narrative that she “just put up w you” is very harmful to your mental health. As you say, it damaged your confidence . She seems to have enjoyed your company. Let’s say, she appreciated the company but didn’t know how to go about it, to tell you she was not romantically inclined. It’s all due to inexperience, I don’t want to think that she was leading you on , it is mean and cruel. I m still surprised how her father was pushing you onto her, he must have been very proud of you. Maybe he saw you as a son he didn’t have.
Her SO wanted her out of your life, perhaps because you’re an obstacle to him, maybe jealousy. Probably he didn’t trust her so much and prohibited her to keep the friendship. He knew you were very much interested in her and her father’s attention to you were very threatening. Will never know what happened… this is the uncertainty that is keeping you attached to her.
I don’t know who my LO married at the end. I didn’t ask him when I talked to him last. It just hurts that he married so fast after the break up, and it doesn’t make sense his declaration of his love for me at the end of the relationship, and then, 49 years later saying if I had waited a little longer our lives would’ve been different… I told him I knew he loved me and that I loved him too, and were the envy of everybody, for him to interrupt me and say somehow angrily: “ But you listened to your friends.” Why would he get altered to say that? I could only say, it was “ my fault “. Then I went rambling nervously unto others things and never got to ask the Ty questions. Does it matter now? No, but it would be comforting to know. Funny things is , I didn’t think or dream of LO for so many years to have the dream about him two years ago that brought limerence and all this turmoil to my life, when I least expected it. I had a quiet , peaceful happy life and now is like a revolution going on in my head, stuck on time and space of those three years of my life when life smiled brightly at me…
Can we say, so is life? But why, why, why. It shouldn’t be . Limerence is a traitor to our mind that can rob you of precious peace, time, energy and ruin your entire life and that of others near you.
Let’s hope time will be kind to us and have these memories be just that, memories without the pain.
Have a great day. Best wishes to you.
John says
Hi Nisor,
One additional tidbit from my above response regarding music and my villainy. My daughter once asked if I was sad, I had country playing while working on my project. She was right though I didn’t admit it. I ordinarily listen to stuff like Frank Sinatra or Dean Martin that I generally don’t associate while working on it. She must have picked up on something in the past that I hadn’t even realized. She’s pretty observant.
How have you dealt with music that you associate with your LO.
Hope you are doing well.
John
Nisor says
Hi John,
I’m doing very well today, thanks God!Drinking coffee at a cafe with a great valley view. Relaxing.
John, you’d be surprised how much the children pick up the emotional state of our minds ! They’re observant, besides we “leak” the emotions without noticing it. At one time, I was really concerned my SO would notice my mood changes, and also, I’d call out loud LOs name when home alone, that would leak LOs name in a conversation with him or my son. When someone occupies your mind so much mistakes can happen.
At the beginning of my LE I used to play all kind of romantic songs, then I realized they were taking me deeper in my sorrows. So I don’t play them anymore. Instead I listen to classical music daily and it soothes my mind a lot. There’s a tv station where I live that is 24 hours playing classical music. I love watching the musicians play in the orchestra with such emotion and I dream of playing the violin or the piano. My daughter is a professional pianist but she works on something else different than music. My home was full of music all the time. I miss her a lot. Enjoy your daughter and be a good friend to her. Daughters are daddy’s girls. They look after dad as an example when the time comes to choose a partner. So, be there for her.
Take good care of yourself and be strong.
John says
Hi Nisor,
My daughter is pretty amazing. At least her first boyfriend seems like a really good guy.
I put up a good front and try to give her reasonable advice. She’d probably think I’m crazy if she found out about stuff I’ve done.
I’m reading things in here about broken bones being worse than the silent treatment. Boy I get that. I’m pretty envious of people who have to choose no contact. Maybe I wouldn’t be if the shoe were on the other foot. As someone who deepest desire is to see someone one more time in this life, I’d love the choice.
I was wondering if you are ok to talk about it when you say you feel like you are right back in the past. I’ve never felt quite like that. I’d love to relive it, to feel that way and there are minor things I’d do differently but I know would not change the outcome. The ruminations I have are always in the present and involve somehow seeing her again.
It has really started bothering me referring to her as my LO. I suppose that’s not good.
I’m hoping I’m getting close to the end of this years big wave of my LE, seems like spring is hardest then I go into a more manageable mode. Usually, anyway.
Oh, love Casablanca as well. Watched it when I was young and it’s one of my favorites. Huge fan of Bogey and that era of movies in general.
Hope all is well,
John
John says
Guess that response is below. Oops. The comments can be tricky to navigate.
John says
Hi Nisor,
My emotions when I listened to the song are mixed. If I close my eyes and just think about the lyrics I believe I had to have meant something to her. Obviously this makes me happy, but if I go back to that time it is extremely painful. It got me into Country music which I’d never listened to and associate every country song with her. I listened to that music almost exclusively for over a decade. If I listen to that song it is very rare. I’ve stopped listening to country entirely as well. My goal being to minimize the feelings as much as I can.
As to my villain narrative that goes back to my quest to find her the first time. At the time I was honest about what I did and most thought it innocent enough though now I’d say it would be viewed as stalking which saddens me greatly. That’s why I shared that part of the story for context. She obviously didn’t think ill of it at the time as I got dinner with her, as well as her address and phone number. I’m sure I spent way more time with her as a result of my antics than I would had we just gone out once. And, for whatever reason, her Dad loved it and was my biggest supported until the end. He called on the last weekend and when she told I was there I could hear the tone in his voice when he asked how her SO was handling it. He was still in my corner. I’ve no doubt there was some tension between her SO and her dad that my presence didn’t help.
I’ve always felt maybe I stole the time I had with her. It would not have happened without extreme effort on my part. It’s easy to make the case what I did was wrong even after the fact. I hate the idea that she thinks of me now saying Oh I shouldn’t have done that. So you can imagine depending on the narrative this is considerable guilt and knowing she thought well of me would make such a difference. It’s in no small reason why the ghosting is even more damaging to my self image. This combined with the fact that the way I found her was so insane and unlikely that it shouldn’t have worked makes it such a fun memory. Her reaction was incredible. Obviously, to write my entire interaction in a story, it’s a story I’ve always loved even if aspects are embarrassing now.
Needless to say I think goodbye on my terms would have been so much better. Especially given how I really put myself out there mustering up confidence I’d never done before.
As always, thanks and good luck.
Mila says
Has anybody read „Dopamine Nation“ by Dr Anna Lembke? Have seen it in a bookstore and wondered if it might be worth buying because limerence is a kind of addiction, after all.
ABCD says
Hello Mila. I have not read “Dopamine Nation”, but I am planning to read some books to understand how our early year experiences affect our adult behavior. I am hoping understanding this will be a good step towards understanding LE.
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
for some reason I‘m not that interested in reasons in my early childhood. I‘m sure they are there, and I even could name some I guess, but somehow I feel that that won’t be the solution, that I‘ll still have to deal with my issues in the present as they are now.
Maybe I’m wrong and that’s why I struggle!
I‘ll be interested if it will help you.
ABCD says
Hi Mila. At this point, I am not sure it will help me. Worth a shot anyways. I will let you know how it turns out.
Nisor says
ABCD,
This video is very,very informative and very interesting.
Site: STOIC JOURNAL
“11 signs that you should end every relationship even it is your family or a friend/ Stoicism
Food for thought…
Nisor says
Hi ABCD,
If you’re interested in childhood trauma, there’s this person named Jim Fletcher with hundreds of interesting videos on the subject. Hers one example:
“60 Characteristics of complex Trauma / Part 2/60. Escape to Fantasy”
Site: Tim Fletcher
As you can see there are 60 videos on the subject, plainly explained, Without so much scientific petulance… yet taken from scientific studies.
“CODEPENDENCY AND COMPLEX TRAUMA , part 1/10. Codependency is the dance of wounded souls. Tim Fletcher
Understanding Trauma part 6. Adaptations and Soul Murder
Part 6, Tim Fletcher.
Understanding trauma part 8, trauma responses
Tim Fletcher
Many videos to choose from. Hope it’s of some help. He’s a pastor from
Canada.
Best wishes and strength on your NC journey.
Imho says
Hi Mila, I didn’t know about it , so thanks. I just watched a couple of YouTube videos of the author talking about ‘dopamine nation’ in a lecture. The Stanford one she talks about chocolate a lot, person addiction, not so much ! There is also a 4 minute summary clip about the books key themes, which may help you decide on the book purchase.
It’s essentially getting the pleasure & pain in balance in this modern world. It’s useful.
There are so many books out there, it’s difficult to know which. I’m thinking to get a CBT book. Any recommendations from LwL welcome.
Lost in Space says
I’ve accepted that I really struggle to read non-fiction books. I’ll find the topic really intriguing and get excited about starting the book, but I lose interest so quickly. I probably have a couple dozen half-read non-fiction books laying around the house. On the other hand, I can get totally immersed in a good novel with a compelling story and characters I care about. I just finished crying my way through “before the coffee gets cold”. I’m trying to pick out my next novel now – I want to find a book about people who love each other but can’t be together so they accept their fate to be apart but never lose their feelings for each other. I’ve already read “love in the time of cholera”… anyone have any other recommendations?
Mila says
Hi LiS,
I read novels and non fiction alike but think that‘s not good- I should read non-fiction more proactively, instead I read it like a novel, am intrigued, nod and think „that’s so right“ and then don’t do anything differently afterwards…
Cannot think of novel recommendations about star-crossed lovers from the top of my head apart from „Anna Karenina“ and „God of small things“, but since both end very badly I‘m not sure that’s what you are looking for😅
Imho says
Hi LiS,
Brief encounter ? I’m not a big novel reader but like you I also struggle to stay with books all the way through unless they really hook me in.
Maybe reading novels on unrequited love is not the best thing ? as it’s rather a potential to fuel your LE and EA and also keeps you in your own head. Reading those books would probably trigger more thoughts of LO for me , especially if you are prone to being a romantic type ?!
Have you considered writing books or blogs yourself ? This may be a good outlet for your romantic side, desire to help others plus your writing style is very fluid and engaging. It would be a yes for a purposeful activity !
Limerent nurse says
Have you read the Outlander series by Diana Gabaldon? It has romance, mystery, humor, and she has nine books that you can binge read if you love the first one 😉.
Lost in Space says
Mila – “God of Small Things” is one of my favorite books ever, I thought it was fantastic. It was also given to me by LO3 who was from India, so reading it during the height of my limerence with her might have heightened my enjoyment of it.
Limerent Nurse – I haven’t read the Outlander series, but I’m familiar with it from my wife binge watching the tv series, I watched some of it with her. She was madly in love with Jamie 😁
Imho – it’s funny, for me I feel like getting immersed in a novel about unrequited love would be helpful right now. It would let me focus on someone else’s story instead of my own and be able to cry and release emotions through someone else’s experience, and that would let me release some of my own feelings, if that makes sense…. I’m also thinking I want to re-watch the movie “Once” – anyone seen that?
Mila says
Hi LiS,
„God of small things“ is one of my all-time favorites too. It’s a long time since I last reread it, though.
I seem not to be able to stand very sad books and films any more.
Haven’t seen „Once“.
Lost in Space says
Mila – have your read Arundhati Roy’s other book “The Ministry of Utmost Happiness”? It’s also pretty fantastic – I’d say I didn’t love it quite as much as “God of Small Things”, but it also a really good read that I got totally immersed in.
“Once” is an amazing movie, about people who fall madly in love but face barriers – I won’t say more because I don’t want to spoil it, but it’s filled with great music, moral dilemmas, and all the feelings we know so well – I’d highly recommend it but only if you’re in the mood for some feels.
Mila says
LiS,
No, haven’t read it, but will, and also will check out the film, I saw that it’s an Irish independent, I like that.
Thank you for the recommendations!
Nisor says
LIS, hi,
What about Dr. Zhivago ?
An affair to remember.
A man and a women
Cyrano de Bergerac
The world of Susie Wong
Love is a many splendored thing
These are movies but I suppose they were novels before they became movies. And of course old fashioned…for you?
Lost in Space says
Let me know when you watch “Once”, I’ll look forward to hearing what you think about it! It’s a movie that I watched almost 20 years ago that always stuck with me, and I’ve been listening to the soundtrack a lot this week thinking about my LO situation. In particular the song “When Your Mind’s Made Up” gives me chills it’s so beautiful – take a listen to that song and I think you’ll see why it’s been my most listened-to song this week.
Bewitched says
This is an amazing set of recommendations!!
To the list, I’ll add “The English Patient”. I read the book by Michael Ondaatje but the movie was better than the book, which is one of the few times that I have thought this.
Movies-wise I have re-watched all of these numerous times: “Drive (2011)”, “The Way We Were (1973)”, “Moonstruck (1987)”, “Gone with the Wind (1939)” and “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004)”.
And “Casablanca (1942)” especially for Nisor,
X
Mila says
Hi LiS,
of course, I‘m looking forward to watching it now!
I read Dr Zhivago, I don’t remember much- I think there are some very poignant and good bits but it wasn’t a well-rounded thing in the whole (cannot express myself, sorry).
Cyrano de Bergerac is a play, not a novel, but I did enjoy reading it.
There’s also „The end of the affair“ by Graham Greene (don‘t watch the film, I mean the book), but it’s of course sad…
Lost in Space says
Nisor, Mila and Bewitched, thanks for the recs!
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless mind destroyed me when I watched it the first time. I actually discussed that movie with LO once in the past, as we were going through one of our prior “breakups” – I asked her if she would do the procedure to erase all her memories of me if it existed in real life. She said absolutely not, that she’d always treasure all of those memories and that she was sure all the good memories would outlast the heartache. I wonder if she’d still say the same?
What about all of you? If it existed, would you sign up for a procedure to erase all memories of your LO?
Bewitched says
Hi LiS,
That’s fairly easy for me to answer because, despite everything, I would do it all again (I think by the end of the movie, that was the dilemma?) Call me a drama queen, but I wouldnt want it never to have happened.
That reminds me of another movie “Vanilla Sky”, which has a similar premise. Have you seen that one, LiS?
Nisor says
Lis,
Don’t forget CASA BLANCA, with Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman, a classic love story of all times!
Nisor says
Lis,
Would I like to sign up for a procedure to erase all memories of my LO? Uff, No, with one condition, that it wouldn’t be painful to remember. That is, not limerence style…
Mila says
Hi LiS,
Another film I haven’t seen, but I can definitely say that I don’t want anything erased.
I had 3 LOs and want to remember each. Sometimes I would like to erase memories of LO1, but since it’s more my own behavior I don’t want to remember, I think it’s healthy for me to remember and learn from it…
LO2 and 3 are dear to me and I count them as important and positive people in my life. My limerence for them isn’t their fault and it would be wrong to erase them from my life, past or present.
Simple erasing without changing anything else wouldn’t solve anything, would it?
The next LE would wait round the corner and one wouldn’t even have had any experience or learned lessons from past LEs, but just get up on the rollercoaster unarmed and do it all again…
Imho says
I found that Eternal sunshine film was rather disturbing. I absolutely loved the opening scene and looking forward to a lovely story and then it went all a bit mind messing. So after watching I would say no to erasing your mind as you just don’t learn or grow from it and so you would simply repeat, repeat.
I do love all your other film choices Bewitched.
Also to add that I loved recent film “Past Lives”, Oscar nominated for best film at the Oscars a few weeks ago. It’s very subtle real film of pure unrequited love. Worth a watch on your own I would say as the later scenes really relate to us limerents. It had stayed with me, which is the sign of a good film.
Serial Limerent says
Age of Innocence by Edith Wharton!
Serial Limerent says
I wouldn’t erase my memories. I treasure memories of past LO’s. As for my current–I’d have to leave my church entirely and erase memories going back 17 years! No, I don’t want to do that. We are close and I don’t want to lose any of that.
Mila says
Bewitched,
„Drive“ is great and „the English Patient“too.
Although there’s much to object to about „Gone with the wind“ I liked it, even the book.
I hardly remember „Moonstruck“, but my dad loved it very much:)
I always wanted to see „The Way We Were“, now even more.
Imho, „Past Lives“,ok!
Making a list!
Lost in Space says
Interesting… even though we’ve all suffered a lot from our limerence, so far no one here has answered that they would choose to erase all memories of their LO if offered the chance. We all find value in those memories despite all the suffering.
Anyone who feels differently? What about you guys Adam or MJ? You both have seemed to have had particularly high ratios of pain to pleasure from your LEs… would you choose to erase all memories of your LE and LO tonight if you could?
MJ says
At this point, that would still be a big no.
I still reel in my head better moments and even the not so better moments from when we were coworkers under the same roof.
I think of all the songs I sing to her in the car that I put on her playlist. Going to the church she once married in. Walking along the beach in her hometown. Making dinner together at her house. All the fantasies I’ve made up of being with her in those places and the poetry I write to her about all of it. It’s almost like a sick and creul joke I play on myself. None of it has ever been real and yet most of the time, it brings me to tears. My poetry reads like a sappy love story without ever seeing any light at the end of the tunnel. Much of it probably is really sad. I will wallow and wrap myself up in all this sorrow like it’s an old comfy blanket. These fake memories all seem so very real and nostalgic to me now. Sometimes it blows my mind to see how pathetically deep this LE has been and how this Woman has brought me to my knees. So much sadness and I still wouldn’t ever want to erase one fake moment from it.. Ever..
I’ve been way in over my head, but it’s mine. I own it. Nobody can ever take it away from me.
This is why I want my new Lady Friend to work out but its going to be a long road ahead of me to get there. At least I can say it’s real this time. Keep wishing me luck. I’m going to need it.
Serial Limerent says
“The Essex Serpent,” Sarah Perry 🙂
Mila says
Hi Imho,
had to google CBT, so obviously I cannot help you with book recommendations!
Thanks, I‘ll check out the YouTube clips!
How are you doing?
I‘m on my way back from my family trip. LO consistently sent some pictures from his trip every day that I answered with a picture from ours. Because I was very busy I didn’t think about him much though, and never sent something first.
While I can see that this would/will be the solution- little contact and busy with other things, and that over a long enough time- I know that I will see him next week and that would change everything again anyway. I still see the only solution in his decision if he returns to my workplace or not.
Imho says
Hi Mila,
May be this is the new way, communication via pictures only ! Ha ha.
I’m happy you have been busy doing nice things with the family. I’m having a strange time doing something different that I can’t go into detail here, but also trying to work so it’s been challenging.
I have consciously disengaged with my LO for a bit. I so want to update him and share how I’m feeling etc but Im try to focus on strengthening my own self-reliance. What did you say recently “noone is coming to save me”
I find the terms NC and LC creates too much anxiety, so I’m going for “disengagement for a bit”. Maybe there is a better term for it.
Mila says
Hi Imho,
there were also one or two sentences with the pictures😅
You could call it „DFAB“, write a book („the gentle way to end limerence“), and make a fortune!
This different thing you are doing is for work or privately?
I wish you patience and success!
Limerent nurse says
I would choose to erase my memories if I could erase the limerence itself with it. It wouldn’t do me any good to erase them unless I could erase the limerence itself, not because of nostalgia but because the experiences taught me what my weaknesses are.
Lost in Space says
Limerent nurse, that’s a good answer.
I guess the reality in most cases (except our friend Nisor) is that time is the great eraser. I virtually never think of LO1 (20 years ago) and rarely think of LO2 (15 years ago) unless something very specific reminds me, and in either of those cases the memories don’t carry any emotional weight. LO3 was only 4 years ago, but I still don’t remember her all that often either – and when I do the dominant emotion is often shame at how I treated my SO at that time. So based on history, I think it’s a pretty safe bet that a few years from now my memories of current LO will be buried and hazy and unlikely to elicit strong feelings.
Nisor says
LIS,
Time does erase everything. I was NOT remembering LO at all for 49 years, it was a dream I had about him two years ago that brought the memories and limerence with it. Which, in my case, means, the mind doesn’t not forget at all! It can bring alive, very alive, the memories of the past! It’s a mystery, I suppose…My story of the dream on LwL/dreams, second post. It was like a movie!
There’s another Poster, he goes by the name “Sleepless “, who also had a DREAM with a person he was friends with fifteen years earlier, and the dream brought him limerence! I’ve seen two other cases of limerence on the blogs with the same situation where the past comes to “haunt you” through dreams. Very curious indeed! Bewitched is afraid of this happening to the when she gets old. No one can’t understand the mind’s realm with certainty. I wasn’t looking for entertainment or limerence to fill my life. I was happy with my life and limerence came to distract me from my duties and responsibilities I have now put on hold… That’s why am so distressed. No one wants to go through this, it’s brought me to re -live the past as if it was yesterday! As if 49 years have not passed at all…A past I had forgotten and buried , or so I thought. But it was burrowed in my brain to come and assault me on later years! It’s like living two lives at the same time, very disturbing and tiring to struggle with. A ghost in your head, living rent free. Ha.
Have a good day and may LO behave in a way you can live with.
John says
I can second Nisor’s experience. Time and even no contact don’t always work. My LE is going on 34 years, 32 have been no contact. Unlike Nisor, mine has been largely active and not latent so slightly different. I would say the degree of uncertainty was the initial fuel but I can’t say. I’d never heard of the word Limerence until a couple weeks ago so I hope that those who are here dealing with the problem earlier than later have a better chance addressing it.
Good luck,
John
Lost in Space says
I haven’t read it but I did see the author speak at an addiction conference last year and she was a great speaker. Ironically I was texting with LO the whole time telling her about the lecture, so I was actually getting LO dopamine hits during Anna Lembke’s talk 🤣
Limerent nurse says
Matthew Perry’s memoir, “Friends, Lovers, and the Big Terrible Thing” is a fascinating read about someone who’s dealt with multiple types of addictions… mostly unsuccessfully. The quote that sticks out to me most is this:
“Reality is an acquired taste.”
Without the cyclical highs of limerence, I have to learn to acquire a new taste and joy in reality. I have to learn to not depend on limerence experiences to bring me joy, satisfaction, or validation. I need to develop a taste for reality that is satisfying in itself.
Right now that involves a lot of binge-watching “Blown Away” on Netflix 😃
Lost in Space says
I had a big moment of clarity today that I wanted to type out while it’s still fresh in my mind…
For the past few weeks, LO has basically been stonewalling me, either not responding at all when I text or responding with minimal, “grey rock” responses. I expected it for a couple of weeks after her texts last month that I’m sure she felt were way more than she should have said, but by this week (week 4) I was really struggling with anxiety and emotional distress – getting the silent treatment is just really painful, even if you think you understand the reasons behind it. Apparently there’s research showing that the silent treatment activates the same centers in the brain as physically painful stimuli – I certainly believe it! I’ve broken bones that hurt a lot less than being on the receiving end of the silent treatment.
So today I finally couldn’t take it anymore – after spending the morning on the verge of a panic attack, I texted LO and asked her what was up, that obviously things had changed drastically and it had been going on quite a while now and asking her to please just let me know what was going on in her head. She responded that everything was fine, that we’re still friends but she’s told me before that we shouldn’t talk so much and I shouldn’t have the feelings that I have because it’s not appropriate – this is pretty much her standard response when I call her on her sudden withdrawals.
In the past when she’s told me similar things, I’ve been really conciliatory, quickly apologizing for pushing boundaries and agreeing with her that she was totally right about needing to stay appropriate and that I’d just leave her alone. And then we’d stop talking for awhile, and then eventually she’d reach back out and the cycle would start all over again.
Today I stopped for a minute and thought “wait a minute… this just isn’t right. I’ve never hid my feelings from you. It’s not like you spent the last year thinking we were just platonic friends and suddenly you found out about my feelings and you’re shocked and horrified. I’ve been honest about my feelings from the start, you’ve always known how I felt, I know damn well that you feel the same, and for like 80% of the last year you’ve been totally happy to engage in this relationship with me knowing exactly what it was. You were an equal partner to the secrecy, the rules, all of that… you’re the one that told me to start deleting our texts in the first place and set the rules on when we could and couldn’t communicate. You enjoyed the warmth and closeness and caring just as much as I did, knowing full well it was never ‘just friendship’. But then every once in a while you get an attack of conscience and decide to re-set the boundaries, which would be fine, everyone has a right to set whatever boundaries they want, but you could never just do it directly, never could just tell me ‘hey, we need to take some time to let things cool off, let’s take a few weeks apart and then talk again later’. That would have been fine, but instead you’ve always done it the most painful way possible, with the silent treatment followed by convincing me that I’m the only one at fault for the frequent contact and the feelings, while most of the time you’ve been a complicit partner who actively encouraged me in all of it. The version you’re telling me now is just not accurate and not fair”.
So that’s what I said to LO in my head. I ended up sending her an email with a somewhat more gentle version of this, but still pretty firmly stating the main points. I also told her that I’d like to stay in a close relationship with her, sticking to the same boundaries that we’ve had for the last year and a half, but that I’m not interested in pretending to be “friends” who just make small-talk for a few minutes a few times a month and don’t have any connection beyond that, that I can’t pretend like that. I told her I was just going to back off and give her all the time and space she wanted, but that I was asking her to spend time thinking about all the good things she’d felt during our close periods, and asking her if she’d really want to give that up forever, and that she can reach back out to me anytime she wants to talk.
I honestly have no idea what’s going to happen next. She might never talk to me again. She might text me in an hour and apologize and want to talk. I have no idea. But I actually feel pretty good right now because I told her my true feelings and was my authentic self towards her instead of bending backwards to try to appease her, and that actually felt good! I know that “be honest and authentic with your emotional affair partner” isn’t really the definition of purposeful living that we’re going for here, but it still did feel like a good thing. If she does choose to re-engage it should be on more honest terms, and if she doesn’t, then I’m ok with myself – not that I won’t miss her tremendously if she never returns, I know it’ll hurt like hell… but missing her would still feel a million times better than this anxiety and these constant cycles of “come close, now go away” that we keep doing over and over again. I firmly believe that I’d rather never talk to her again than keep doing these cycles over and over again.
ABCD says
Hello LiS. I am sorry you had to go through all that anxiety. You seem to experiencing the push – pull / hot – cold dynamic. Its a classic way to keep a person hooked to LO. Engage warmly for some time, then back off for some time, and repeat the previous two steps. It looks like the same thing happened in my case as well. There could be many reasons for this – there are natural barriers between you too, and though both of you like each other, LO feels guilty after indulging, and so, backs off for a while, only to re-engage later. It may also be that LO is doing this on purpose to keep you hooked (I hope that is not the case, but who knows).
To me, the only way out of this loop is to stop seeking LO completely. This means having ZERO expectations from LO. It will be painful at first, but each day without LO contact will be an achievement, and will make you feel better and better.
I am also stuck in the same loop, so I have been trying to follow my own advice now. Unfortunately, I cannot go full NC, so I need to manage my interactions with LO. So, now the goal is to expect nothing from LO, and to stop seeking LO. Basically, to try and flatten out the highs and lows by altering our expectations.
If you choose to disengage completely from LO, there will be setbacks, and you will miss her, but as you said, it will be a dull pain, rather than the spikes of anxiety that you feel now when you get the silent treatment.
Good luck!
Mila says
Hi LiS,
I‘m so glad you did that. You did something actively to change this cycle, and I think it’s also good for her to know how you see her treatment.
„“be honest and authentic with your emotional affair partner” isn’t really the definition of purposeful living that we’re going for here“
But „be honest and authentic with every relationship that affects your life“ is definitely a way to good living.
Be prepared that she might not react as you would wish or expect, maybe she won’t understand and still think you should be ok with it, or she won’t be able to face the truth about her encouraging this kind of EA the same as you, and now that you want to name it honestly as what it is, (without changing anything but the name), more than friendship, she won’t be able to do it anymore because she needs to hide it before herself and lie a bit about to herself to do it.
Maybe not, maybe she will see what you mean and you‘‘ll be able to talk about it and have a more stable and honest relationship.
But in either case you‘ll have given your prison bars of this cycle of warmth and coldness a good shake if not broken them, you took yourself serious and called her out on her behavior.
I think you did the absolute right thing for you but also for her!
Lost in Space says
ABCD and Mila, thank you both. At this time I feel like I really do have no expectations. I did what I felt like I had to do to be authentic (and also to preserve my sanity), now it’s out of my hands and I can live with whatever she decides. She and I have always had this little thing running just below the surface of our relationship where I’ve always wanted us to be totally open and honest with ourselves and each other about the nature of our relationship, while she’s always felt it really important to maintain a facade of platonic friendship, I guess to soothe her own conscience – I’ve always wanted to tell her “who exactly are we fooling? It’s only you and me here and we both know the truth”. I told her really early on that I loved her and wanted to be as close with her as possible without hurting anyone else, and I always wanted to have explicitly agreed upon consistent boundaries, rather than nebulous, constantly shifting unspoken boundaries. I even wrote up a “contract” for us one time outlining all the lines we’d never cross but suggesting that as long as we stayed within those boundaries then we could be as warm and loving with each other as we wanted within the safety of our constraints.
I anticipate a challenge in the future will be if I don’t hear from her for some weeks or months, and then she reaches out casual and friendly, just wants to chat as friends and catch up… at that point, I hope that I’d have the strength and clarity to say “hey, I really want to start talking to you again too, but let’s take a step back and talk about our relationship first so we don’t just doom ourselves to repeating the same cycle again”, but of course it’ll probably be tempting to just engage in light conversation with her and not risk spoiling it with heavier talk… but that’s a concern for another day.
Mila says
„and then she reaches out casual and friendly, just wants to chat as friends and catch up“
I think you should keep in mind that behavior like this is not healthy and means she completely ignores your feelings. And that means the relationship is really only about her needs and rules and never about yours.
Of course she might not see and mean it that clearly, but it’s important that you keep an objective view of this and her.
MJ says
LiS,
Personally I don’t know how either of you have lasted in this charade as long as you have. It would drive me bonkers to be with LO and be so into her and like madly in love, without ever being able to actually have her in any real capacity to actually truly love her. It would be maddening.
I can’t speak on behalf of all the ladies here but don’t you think your LO is in the right when she goes off on her own like she does, and disappears for a spell? Like to me it’s apparent she has feelings for you and you likewise have some back, yet you’ve conjured up parameters you both have agreed to stay within, so noone gets hurt in the end. When it seems to me like you’re both hurting each other by default anyway. I mean think how it makes her feel knowing you always go home to your loving family, that you tell LO how much you love them and don’t want to hurt SO. Like you seemingly have no intention to ever leave your family for this person but yet you need her so bad in your life? She doesn’t go home to a loving family like you do and from the sound of things, has not a good run with her Dude either.. LO probably desires so much more and yet the parameters you set up are going to prevent that from ever going anywhere like she wants. Metaphorically, thats like you providing and giving LO her dream house, only to tell her she can’t actually ever live in it. She has to reside in the shed out back. Or you bought her that hot little sports coupe she’s always wanted but it won’t go above 5 mph. Wtf??
I think the whole thing needs a break and your Wife and family deserve all of the good man that at heart, I know you probably are. Don’t F&%@ this up man..
Lost in Space says
MJ, nice metaphors! I think you’re right on with everything you said. There’s no way a relationship like this isn’t going to be filled with pain from unmet wants and needs. Even when things are going well between us, I always feel a low level pain from not being able to truly be with her. I can imagine it’s much worse for her, for all the reasons you mentioned. I don’t blame her at all for pulling away or acting inconsistent and I don’t have any bad thoughts for her, I totally understand it from her and like I’ve written before, if she was the one posting on here I’m sure everyone would be encouraging her in her efforts to go NC with her coworker. I totally get
It. I just wish she could be more honest and communicative about it, but she just can’t and I have to accept that.
My goal is to just be as authentic and honest with her as possible and trust her to make the right decision for herself. I think I’ve made it clear to her where I stand – I love her, I want to have an emotionally connected and caring relationship with her, but I’m never going to leave my wife for her and on the flip side I can’t pretend that we’re just casual friends with no deeper feelings. That’s all I can do, is just be honest with myself and with her and then let her decide what she wants to do. And then just accept that it’s out of my hands and focus on living my best life with the people I’m really closest to.
Bewitched says
Hi LiS,
I applaud your ability to be emotionally honest with your LO. Everything that you’ve written to your LO is consistent with being authentically you and your best version of yourself.
Maybe you have garnered the strength to do this because of your shift to stoicism and greater emphasis on intrinsic drivers, aka ‘purposeful living’ in your recent post? That post really resonated and I think you should re-read your own thoughts in the coming days.
If we are honest, you are also (understandably) reacting to the 4 weeks of enforced LC/NC out of her. But, I do think that’s still an important motivator because your dynamic is not particularly working. Or, at least, not consistently. She is acting a bit avoidant? Irrespective of what she’s doing and how she is being, that doesn’t actually matter because it is extrinsic and you can’t control her. You can only control your life choices. Let’s repeat this like a mantra. OHMMMM…. 🙂
I do think that you would really benefit from something to help you stay purposeful. For instance, re-reading all the blogs devoted to purposeful living, starting with the one from last weekend and also looking at the older ones in the archive. I read the ‘why can’t I be friends with my crush’ one again last night because I am in a very similar place to you (albeit much diluted).
All the very best to you LiS. Don’t brood, please.
Lost in Space says
I can only control my own life choices. I can only control my own life choices. I can only control my own life choices. Ohmmmmmm…. 🧘
Exactly. I said what I needed to say to be true to myself (true to both of us really) and now I surrender any illusions of control and will observe the outcome with a sense of detached curiosity.
ABCD says
Hello all. So after stumbling again after a longish NC, I am trying this “0 expectation from LO” thing again. Just trying to not seek her out, and to not use her for validation and mood regulation. In addition, trying to figure out the deeper reason that I fell for LO. Wish me luck! I will keep you posted on my progress.
Mila says
I wish you all the luck in the world ABCD!
ABCD says
Thanks Mila!
Bewitched says
Self soothing using LO is the devil’s work. Just don’t do it, kids!
I am joking, but yeah, we could all take this on board.
Good luck ABCD!!! Let us know how you get on. (I will post an update of my own very soon. I appear to be having a calm week, so far 🙂 )
WhoompThereItIs says
I want to message LO about a specific book which was recommended to me last week. Stems from a previous conversation and I think would be good for LO to read with his current job. That’s what friends do yes? Or is this just an excuse to reach out?
Suppose the question is what do I want to gain? Just really missing my friend.
Bewitched says
Hi Whoomp,
Tough Love time!
So you want to reach out to the person who left a sarcastic remark to your previous attempt to reach out? I wouldn’t – I would harden my heart. As for ‘friends’ well I think that this is just slippery thinking. Reading some of the blogs about how you probably can never be friends with your LO might be helpful.
Sorry I am dashing here, hope you don’t take all of this the wrong way. I have been there myself and earned the scars….
WhoompThereItIs says
You’re right and tough love helps. Situation just hurts. But isn’t that just the way? Truth hurts! Thanks for the quick reply. I’ll distract myself with a trip to the dentist.
(maybe I was a bit sensitive to LO’s last reply. I think it was done in a teasing way but it wasn’t my expectation. Nevertheless it wasn’t particularly good for my wellbeing and mental health so that’s all there is to it.)
frederico says
Whoomp
I’d say don’t do as I would once have done – don’t fall for this trick that the “lizard” part of your brain has devised.
You are in the early stages of going No Contact. If you have doubts about doing things involving LO, those doubts are usually well-founded.
This is just my rather hard-lined opinion, bearing in mind what I remember from your original post.
I would just like feel happier if you could avoid causing yourself further emotional pain in the long run.
There is a blogs about being friends with your LO. It doesn’t work, it seems to me. Here is one.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/cant-we-just-be-friends/
f
frederico says
Excuse my atrocious grammar – I didn’t check properly and was changing my reply as I went along, but I hope you get the gist!
All best,
f
WhoompThereItIs says
Thanks, I replied bur clicked back before post so I missed it. I’ve read that blog but it’s useful to keep re reading them when my brain convinces me that I’m not limerent and that we were and are friends. Suppose this is the denial stage of the withdrawal/grief.
I appreciate supportive comments here and distractions and knocking sense in to me.
Still working my way through the 60 pages of excellent blogs.
Adam says
Good advice by Bewitched and frederico. While I have never contacted her since she left there were many times working with her I justified actions by something like that. “I’m just helping a friend.” Justification is the last clinging hope to something your inner voice is trying to warn you of. Like frederico said if you are having doubts about doing something than that is a good indication it is a bad idea.
I made this comment on friendship and limerence last year as I was trying to move forward. If you read the post or any of the comments, just to give you context, DmitHardison is my wife. She comments here from time to time.
“It’s blatantly apparent to LO they are getting special treatment even if the limerent is blissfully unaware of his actions. A platonic relationship mostly can’t evolve from that. Limernet gets needs met, LO thrives. Who doesn’t love getting treated as a goddess? The limerent destroys an otherwise perfectly possible relationship. The limerent is the destroyer of his own dreams.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/friendship-after-limerence/
Lost in Space says
Interesting little observation today… normally when my phone vibrates indicating an incoming text, I always feel a little hope that it’s from LO. Today I’ve found myself hoping it’s NOT her each time my phone buzzes. The thought of hearing from her fills me with a sense of dread. I think my brain is associating her with pain. I think that’s a good thing
Hmm… I wonder if her brain started associating me with pain a few weeks ago?
Mila says
I’d say you dread her text because it’s the first time you really challenged her way of handling the situation and now it’s quite interesting how she will react and there’s a chance that her reaction will cause you pain?
But I think anything that breaks her/your cycle of silent treatment and pain is a good thing.
Lost in Space says
I’m actually dreading any kind of response from her today. If I imagine her texting back “I’m sorry, I love you so much, let’s really talk and work it out” even that fills me with dread. I just don’t want to hear from her at all.
Of course, that feeling might change in an instant if she really did text me something like that – I’m honestly not sure.
But most likely, based on knowing her and our prior history, I’d guess I’ll hear from here somewhere between 2 weeks and 2 months from now. She processes stuff very slowly and deliberately. But I could be totally wrong. She might also never return – I know she’s shut a few family members out of her life permanently, for reasons that were never totally clear to me – so I know she has that in her. And maybe it would be the best thing for both of us if she did.
I’m trying to approach this as a scientist, like “I wonder what the outcome of this experiment will be? Aren’t these observations about my own emotions interesting? Isn’t it interesting to observe what her reaction will be? This is all so interesting and I’m learning so much!”
Mila says
It’s certainly good to observe your emotions now, because once she answered, you might be back where you were before, or in a new place, who knows- anyway you will be busy with her reaction, but now you are „alone“ with your own reaction.
I guess she‘ll need time to answer, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she took a few days to reply.
I cannot help thinking that if I would be her and would know now how much the silence makes you anxious, I would write a short „got your text, have to think about it for a while, will answer soon“text…
But, as Bewitched and Nathaniel Whatshisname (I quoted to Imho ) were saying, you have to be only dependent on yourself, „there’s no one coming to save you“, in the end you shouldn’t rely on expectations of her but stand for your own well-being and sanity.
I think you are on a good way and wish you strength and patience!
Imho says
LiS, Going back to Amber Lembke ( who I discovered via Mila only today) she said it typically takes 4 weeks to reset reward pathways in our brain. I think she means our thresholds for dopamine fixes comes down in that time and we can get pleasure and pain back on balance after a period of abstenance from our drug of choice. So maybe this enforced abstenance you have experienced is also having a neuro-effect on your brain so you are getting more pain to redress the hits of pleasure before – it’s a rebalancing, in a good way.
Anyway, you saw her lecture in person & you are a medical man, so you know better than me what the actual drivers are here and indeed you can treat this situation and your reaction to it like a scientist testing out hypotheses.
Mila says
Having watched a bit of a lecture of Anna Lembke too today, I think Imho might be onto something regarding your pleasure/pain- balance!
I was quite intrigued by the 4weeks- span myself because it’s not that much, I think. Of course she also says that the trigger is still there and can be activated again (or something like that), but the fact that it’s proven that the balance shifts after 4 weeks fortifies the NC strategy and also makes me rethink if I shouldn’t try to abstain from the damn sweets for 4 weeks😂
Mila says
Sorry, forgot I shouldn’t swear🙈in another language it’s quite easy to use swear words.
Imho says
Hi Mila , yes Anna not Amber! I like how we all learn new sources of information on LwL.
I’m sure your apology is more than accepted by anyone who may be a bit religious.
Alternative words are fun to consider : darn, blasted, blinking, pesky….. Those pesky sweets!
Lost in Space says
Imho, good point about the 4 weeks to reset the pleasure/pain balance. I halfway remember that from her talk (it’s ironic that I probably wasn’t paying as much attention as I should have been because I was busy texting with LO while listening to the talk 🤣). But that’s definitely a helpful thing to keep in mind and a little cause for optimism. Thanks 🙂
Bewitched says
Hi Imho, Mila, LiS, ABCD, & all
I am having an experience of this 4 weeks thing mentioned above by Imho (“Going back to Amber Lembke (who I discovered via Mila only today) she said it typically takes 4 weeks to reset reward pathways in our brain. I think she means our thresholds for dopamine fixes comes down in that time and we can get pleasure and pain back on balance after a period of abstinence from our drug of choice”)
So for me, its been 4 weeks since I had any contact with my LO and I am feeling great. I had been feeling terrible up until ~the 3 week period. The reason for which was because he had not replied to something I sent him for work which I had spent ages on and was hoping for minimal acknowledgement of (as in, ‘thanks, got it, be back to you soon’). I went through all the cycles of emotion, from furious and “I am never going to speak pleasantly with him again – from now on its all business”, to compassion and “he’s crap at times but he can’t help it….”. This roller coaster was driving me insane and I was journaling my way through it so I could see it all play out. This week, which marks the 4th week since all this happened, I have mostly forgotten about him, except for those protected times of day which are always devoted to rumination about him, i.e. on first waking in the morning and last thing at night when going to sleep. From these timings it is clear that, despite all my warnings not to do it, this is pure self-soothing. Anyway, even on the waking/sleeping moments, I feel like I am struggling to keep my mind on the topic of LO. It seems clear that my mind is not getting the same reward that it used to when I was thinking about him, so it drifts off to think about something else, like, what top am I going to wear tomorrow, or, maybe I should bake a cake at the weekend – and other important stuff 🙂
It seems that ~4 weeks is required for re-setting my brain reward centre. The only exception is when I see him f2f and then it takes longer to get back to stability (like, 3 months). But I do get a lot of euphoria out of those encounters, so it makes sense that the recovery after that (large) reward takes longer.
Have a great day everyone!
Mila says
Hi Bewitched,
Interesting, there seems to be truth in the 4 week span!
I wonder if it’s wise to dedicate your first and last thoughts of the day to LO. These are important times of the day. Especially when you have to force yourself to think about LO.
You‘ll train a new habit, won’t you? If you think about cake (that’s what stood out for me immediately 😂), why not just think about cake?ä, why forcing yourself to think about LO?
It might be a natural dwindling of LO related thoughts that you are actively stopping.
Or maybe I misunderstood you.
Lost in Space says
Bewitched – I think it’s a very good thing indeed when you find yourself trying to think about LO but your mind keeps wandering to other topics, instead of the other way around!!
Bewitched says
Hi again guys,
“why not just think about cake? why forcing yourself to think about LO?”
Problem is, its like a habit I have had for years. That is just where my mind goes. I should break it but it soothes me. And, as I said, my mind no sooner gets there but it starts wandering off these days, which is hilarious. On a serious note, I am well aware that many others would only love to be in this situation.
But the other important point was that, although NC of ~4 weeks seems to work for me after a ‘small’ interaction, I have much more anguish after a large and euphoric interaction, which takes far longer to recover from. I can only imagine that it would take longer than 4 weeks for you both, for your interactions, in particular, LiS. Mila, your last interaction f2f meetings were also very nice so it may be a challenging time ahead.
I have snowpheonix in my mind right now because she is close to ‘D-Day’ and will have a lot to process once that happens.
We are all crawling slowly (or quickly) towards the exit, it seems, one way or another… that’s hard to face up to, but when you put everything in the framework of numerous LOs in a lifetime, that’s what you inevitably get – though the timeframe can massively vary.
Snowpheonix says
Biwitched,
Thank you for remembering my imminent D-day… a metaphorical death?
We humans have a habitual tendency not to value or appreciate enough what we already “have” and subconsciously take for granted that they’ll be here indefinitely, like our physical form. But once it’s threatened to be take away with a definitive date, then our mind could derail, because unknown is worse and more powerful than any answers to face.
Last July when I first came to LwL, I was already two month into completely NC and felt listless. Then when the news of D-Day hit, my psyche changed — a “death” date is fixed! After processing my mind so much here through so much valuable mind and soul digging exchanges, I feel much more at peace with increased strength and my returned old willpower (reduced so much after the severe Hashimoto thyroiditis and Lymphoma); yet, I don’t know how I’ll be feeling after D-Day.
Luckily I was never realistically close to LO during 7 years of LE, only very much attached to the Phantom of LO (who also knows a partial of my “parental” LE without knowing what LE is. I disclosed to him twice: last April and this Feb.), so hopefully, LO’s forced, regular “disappearance” would not cause another havoc in my reality. Nowadays when LO’s blurry icon appeared in my head, I can clearly tell if it’s the Phantom or the realistic LO.
Another concern of mine is that LwL has helped me uncover and recover a great deal of my Sentio that was buried inside my subconscious since childhood/youth… thus, I’ve realized that I’m becoming more sentimental in a positive direction— mostly recalling and appreciating those sweet and beautiful memories during this lengthy LE…. Again, it’s easy for my mind to forgive and let go dark sides of every “coin” I’ve ever held in my hand….
I hope the positive effects after your 4-week LC/NC stays with you and continue bringing more serenity and joy into your life.
Snowpheonix says
I will not let this parting “casual and indifferent”….
https://youtu.be/PW-kxx4TqN0?si=HrFeXNY3vnrkIB08 — Dimash: the Crown
Mila says
Hi Bewitched,
„I can only imagine that it would take longer than 4 weeks for you both, for your interactions, in particular, LiS. Mila,“
Well, 4 weeks completely no contact won’t happen soon in my case, I guess. But I rely on constant absence from each other’s life chipping away at the frequency of contact and limerence.
If he leaves, it will die down slowly , I’m very sure of it. And I‘m quite sure he will leave. I‘ll let it die the natural death, I guess.
„We are all crawling slowly (or quickly) towards the exit, it seems, one way or another… “
I‘m quite sure of that in my case, at least in the event of him leaving. In your case, it depends a bit on what the future holds for you in terms of LO interactions.
But I think you were not idle and work your way towards independence from LOs interactions.
Lost in Space says
I just finished a 90 minute full body massage (don’t worry, it was with a male massage therapist in a licensed massage studio 😁). I couldn’t believe how much tension I’d been holding in my body from the past few weeks. I’m gonna get back to doing some morning yoga starting tomorrow morning. Emotional distress leads to so much physical tension – let’s all make sure we’re taking good care of our bodies along with our hearts and minds!
Mila says
I‘m going to my physiotherapist in half an hour for a treatment, and I‘ll stop eating those darn, blasted, bloody, effing, pesky sweets (Imho;).
Nisor says
Lis,
Well done LIS!!! We accumulate so much stress in our bodies that needs to flow out by a massage. The body gets short circuited…When I had two kids to handle I was under so much stress , we had a masseur come home twice a week and it was so goood! She was a strong tall Austrian lady with heavy hands that worked miracles for me and SO. My son also goes for massage to get rid of stress, so does my daughter in USA, she also has a hot pool in her yard which she and her husband use all year round, even in freezing temperatures!
Yes, limerents, every bit helps. We are responsible for our health, mental and physical.
Good day to all! Courage!
Mila says
Hi LiS,
I watched „Once“ today!
A truly lovely film with beautiful music, I loved it! While he‘s best at the intense stuff, she had such a lovely soft voice, such a pleasure having real musicians perform and act. And their acting was also perfect, so honest and going directly to the heart, nothing like the Hollywood stuff.
I had to watch without subtitles and didn’t get all the lyrics, but I think I understand why you play this song a lot. Thanks for the recommendation, I enjoyed it a lot, and it woke up many memories and thoughts for me.
While watching that, another film came to my mind that’s a bit similar in the story, „Lost in translation“, I loved that too (one of the very very few films where Scarlett Johansson acts well (expect enraged male fans will attack me now;))
Bewitched says
Hi guys,
I am so delighted that you are getting your art exposure these days. I just thought of one more recimmendation. Its a slow burner but I loved it. ‘Drive My Car’ (2021) which is Japanese with subtitles. Its such a beautiful film based on the Murakami volume of short stories ‘Men without Women’.
Me, I am going to look at some art at the weekend (actual paintings!)
🎨 🖼 🎭
Mila says
Bewitched,
looked at „actual paintings“over Easter! Should do it more often and take the kids, they actually liked it.
Trifles says
Bewitched, I also just finished watching Drive my car. (My concentration skills are terrible these days, so it took over a week… 🙄). It was touching!
And then I saw Past Lives (takes place in Korea and NYC) at the theater, I think someone else mentioned it here. It’s about childhood sweethearts… 20 years later. That was also very slow-paced but it really lingers with you. Interestingly, the character that really spoke to me, was the SO – such beautiful scenes with him!
Bewitched says
Dear Trifles,
Oh thats so cool! I also saw Past Lives recently – it was lovely. I didn’t love it as much as ‘Drive My Car’, but the latter is almost 3 hours long and requires good concentration – 🙂 It totally transported me.
You know, I have found that lots of movies do not pull me in as easily as they used to, before I became limerent, so sympathies on that front! I had my first and only LE and its been lasting for a couple of years now, but I think I probably fell harder than others. Or you could say that the reason I am still limerent is that I clearly don’t want to give it up yet …hmmm.
Have a lovely week, hope it goes well.
Trifles says
Bewitched, great taste we have! 😉 There’s been some really good films from S. Korea and Japan in recent years. I loved the subtle, nuanced storytelling in both of these movies. Limerence for sure, especially at the height of it, impairs your concentration. But I mostly blame our dopamine-based (social) media environment.
Good luck to you as well with NC! I can understand not wanting to give up the LE. But the main thing I regret looking back at my previous LE (15 years ago!) was how long I hung in there. Luckily I was able to function and even date after the first few months of LE, so I don’t have to regret that he “stole” a year and a half of my life (even though no one I dated compared to him…).
Serial Limerent says
Ah yes, Lost in Translation. I saw that one recently. 🙂
Lost in Space says
Mila, I’m so glad to hear you loved the film! It’s one of my favorites of all time. I like the comparison to Lost in Translation too – they both tell really human stories of people who find brief moments of connection with each other that can’t last, aren’t meant to last, but change both of them forever and leave marks on both of their hearts.
In other news, LO called me yesterday… I was really surprised, I’d been so sure I wouldn’t hear from her for weeks if ever. I almost didn’t take the call but I did, and we had one of the most heartfelt and honest talks we’d ever had. She told me that she’d read my email, that she felt so bad about hurting me and that she knew how painful her silences were for me and how unfair it was, and she tried her best to explain about how she just got so overwhelmed with emotions and so afraid of losing control that she just shut down and withdrew into herself. We only talked for about 20 minutes or so but it was a really honest and open conversation that felt really good, and we agreed to talk again this afternoon after work to have a frank discussion about the future of our relationship and whether we can continue being involved in each others’ lives in a way that’s close and positive and meaningful but never goes any further, or if that’s just too difficult or painful or dangerous and we just have to agree to part ways.
I’d love to stay connected with her of course, but only if it’s not too painful for her, and only if we can agree to work on consistency and communication so that we have some chance of breaking these cycles that are hurting us both so badly. So as I anticipate this conversation, I’m really just wanting to listen and understand what she’s feeling and what she needs and encourage her to express herself openly so I can understand, and for me to be equally open and authentic with her about what I feel and what I need, and then see where we end up (and to be clear, the only two options are that we stay connected while maintaining the same boundaries or stronger than we’ve had before, or we part ways – there is absolutely no consideration of moving things further). I’ll let you know how it goes!
Mila says
Wow, that’s some news!
Try to keep your goals in mind, especially what you want to change (her silent treatment), there’s a slight danger to be so happy to hear her voice and have a warm conversation that you won’t want to spoil the mood, but now is your chance (both of you) to change something in the pattern.
I mean if she really doesn’t want to hurt you it’s not much asked of her to send you a little „too much for me, will be back“text.
Otherwise her talk of not wanting to hurt you is just empty.
Sorry to be harsh on her but she‘s grown up and it’s really feasible.
I wish you both good luck!
I‘ll be thinking of you!
Bewitched says
All the best to you LiS. Its an opportunity, we all hope it goes well.
Take care of yourself, regardless, and don’t let it derail you too much (no excessive highs or lows allowed!).
Serial Limerent says
Keep us posted, LIS! I came here on purpose to check up on you and here something has already happened.
John says
Hi Nisor,
My daughter is pretty amazing. At least her first boyfriend seems like a really good guy.
I put up a good front and try to give her reasonable advice. She’d probably think I’m crazy if she found out about stuff I’ve done.
I’m reading things in here about broken bones being worse than the silent treatment. Boy I get that. I’m pretty envious of people who have to choose no contact. Maybe I wouldn’t be if the shoe were on the other foot. As someone who deepest desire is to see someone one more time in this life, I’d love the choice.
I was wondering if you are ok to talk about it when you say you feel like you are right back in the past. I’ve never felt quite like that. I’d love to relive it, to feel that way and there are minor things I’d do differently but I know would not change the outcome. The ruminations I have are always in the present and involve somehow seeing her again.
It has really started bothering me referring to her as my LO. I suppose that’s not good.
I’m hoping I’m getting close to the end of this years big wave of my LE, seems like spring is hardest then I go into a more manageable mode. Usually, anyway.
Oh, love Casablanca as well. Watched it when I was young and it’s one of my favorites. Huge fan of Bogey and that era of movies in general.
Hope all is well,
John
Nisor says
Hi John,
It’s easier to refer to the person one is in love as LO, that way one doesn’t expose them. It’s the nomenclature of the blog to make it easier for the others to understand. But if you want you can use her real name, it’s not prohibited here.
Limerence as well as a breakup of a relationship it is worse than a broken bone alright! I had a broken disc and I prefer it to the soul pain of limerence. At least, with a broken bone you more or
less know the outcome and that it will pass, with limerence, one never knows what’s going to happen. That anxiety panics, and squeezing of the heart showing up constantly are unbearable.
When I say I’m living in the past, it means I ruminate about those three years of my relationship and nothing else matters at the present time. I do re-live the beautiful moments we had together, and it was all roses and peaches, for we got rapport and never had an ugly argument which I could say threatened the relationship. I go back to when we met, how it happened and what he said in living colors! The company I worked for was bought by the company he worked with. Each one’s personal was kept apart by 20 meters wide space. LO could see me by just lifting his eyes. He could see my side, but I’d have to turn in order to see him. We’re working together for abt six months or so and never, never noticed him. I only passed his way if I got to see the general manager or the telephone operator, for on those days you needed to put a request for a long distance phone call, the operator had to connect the lines. And had a very demanding job and needed a lot of worldwide and out of state phone calls. It seems LO had been “watching” me and decided to make himself known. I usually left the company late to avoid the crowded elevators and crowded subways. One evening, as I was hurrying to go out to eat, he approached me by the sidewalk. He called me by my name. I thought how does a stranger knows my name, and asked him: how do you know my name? He said, I did my research… I work in the same company. I smiled and said I have never noticed him. He said, If it was ok to walk by me, and I said, it’s ok. Then he asked where ware you going? I said: I’m so starved, I’m going to a Chinese restaurant near by and I will order for two. He smiled and asked: do you mind if I invite you to a nice restaurant uptown I know has excellent food? I said, ok. Then he stopped by a telephone booth, called his mom he was not coming for dinner, and we took the subway uptown. The train stopped and slowed down, and I was furious with myself for accepting the invitation, saying to myself , ‘I’d have ordered already and eaten and here I am stuck in a train. He must have noticed, and said ‘I’m sorry ‘, but we’ll be there soon, I barely smiled. Finally, we got there. The restaurants name was Susy’s, and she seemed to know him. We sat and he asked what I would drink. I said, a Scotch with soda. He said, ever so politely, you don’t drink scotch before dinner, what about a Martini? I said, ok. Olive or onion, I said Olive. Then he ordered for three! I was surprised and asked, who’s the third person? He said with a wide smile: you said you’re hungry for two… I smiled again. We bantered a lot and had a great time with him telling me jokes about his childhood, I only listened and laughed…
After asking me where I lived, it happened we were in the near neighborhood as his, he called a taxi and took me home. At the footsteps he kissed me in the forehead and said good night. The taxi must have cost him a fortune because it was from the city far to the suburbs. I thought nothing of this evening, not even a glimmer. Then in a few days he called again to go out for dinner, this time near work. And the third time, we went to a restaurant with live music and we danced. After we sat at the table he held my hands and looked into my eyes and his eyes and mine locked glances for quite awhile, I was doomed! That’s the beginning of a three years of a beautiful romance I’ll never forget. It was the first time I have allowed myself to love someone and let someone love me in return. I was exposed emotionally for the first time. For before I’ve had affairs but never amounting to anything, I was fearful dismissive I think. We continued to go on dates twice a week for three years . He had my apartment keys… he took me to meet his brothers and sister but never his parents. I never cared or asked . We’re so much in love, we lived in a bubble of our own and no one else mattered. That’s why I go back to the past, to re-live those beautiful precious moments again and again!
Now it’s 51 years ( this year)since we don’t see each other . Do I want to see him one last time, yes! I don’t care how wrinkled or hunchback he might be. And then I can die in peace. It’s been two years since I broke silence NC, I was able to hear his soft sweet musical voice, one of the features that attracted me the most. I was pleased to hear him, he was pleased to hear me. And he called my name with such a beautiful tone of voice, his romantic tone… he used to address me with the word “love or doll. ” Too bad and sad im not his love anymore….
Im not so sure he’s healed, but I know for sure my heart still yearns for his.
Some other time I’ll tell you more.
Have a wonderful weekend.
Serial Limerent says
Such a beautiful story! So many beautiful stories on this site….I read them like reading a romance novel. Other sites, people just dismiss you and seem to paint you with a scarlet letter A. Here we can recognize the bittersweetness of it all.
John says
Hi Nisor,
Thanks for sharing. It’s wonderful you had that time together. I do hope you get to where it’s just a happy memory.
As for referring to her as an LO. I thought that might be part of the process. You know kind of dehumanizing that person to help with the addiction as it were. I hate thinking of this person as a object. That’s all.
After all this time I would love any firm of contact, a text, letter phone call. Face to face would be incredible.
I really only wish to ask 3 things
1. Why did you need to ghost me after I offered goodbye
2. Do you hate me
3. Have you completely forgotten me
Anything more than that would be icing on the cake.
For the first 10 years I really fantasized about being with her but that evolved to just seeing her once. I never fantasize about the answers merely the opportunity to ask. I know at this point it’s a complete waste but it’s been in my head for so long.
If I could get you the story I wrote I’d love for you to read the whole thing but it’s about 20 pages long and growing as I add details so cant get it all in a blog! I, too, can visualize the past and oh if I could relive it.
Funny how we agree that we’d take the physical pain over the heartbreak. Interestingly my best analogy is it’s an old would that was very bad and never healed. It usually just aches and I’m so used to it I barely notice but when the weathers bad it hurts.
I do look forward to hearing more as long as it doesn’t dredge up more pain for you.
Have an awesome weekend!
John
Nisor says
about 10 meters or less not 20 meter distance
Nisor says
Hi John,
Happy beginning of a new week!
I’d love to read your story, if only there was a way to mail it to me?
Referring to your love one as an LO, really sounds dehumanizing, but as you say, and I believe is to help one see the LO as an imaginary thing. To help get them down from the pedestal we have placed them, also to help with the detachment. I feel Ok by using the word LO. No problem.
I’m surprised at your tenacity to carry on fantasizing LO for ten years! But you see, there’s a limit the mind puts up with, it shaped itself to just wanting to see her and ask those three questions. You don’t even care what she might say, I read, but just the pleasure to be given that opportunity to ask the questions! The same with me, I want to ask the questions I didn’t ask LO then, they are too man, too many it would need days to clarify everything. But we know deep inside that wil never occur . We also know we won’t get the answers we want either, it will only add perplexity to an already confused mind. But, we keep on dreaming! When I found LOs telephone number I was euphoric thinking I could text him every day saying “good morning “ and sharing the news of the day, music videos , or other topics he may care about, as if he was just a new friend… soon enough I realized it was not possible to be friends with LO, too much emotions involved. (I noticed it when I made the second phone call after 49 years of silence) . Can’t never treat him like a friend, I can’t fool myself. The tension would always be there. Therefore, I’m realistic enough to accept this NC with a straight head and stoic mindset, for the sake of my sanity. It’s all reduced to nothing, nothing left to share…It’s just a mirage, a fantasy that will never come to fruition. And the expectations that he will ever call, or contact me are zero, big Zero. He’s probably protecting himself from me, because I hurt him once, two, would be losing his pride. And I don’t blame him. I know he’s a proud man, although he’s very polite and had the decency to talk to me with great respect and care. I’m grateful for that. I leek my wounds and try and heal them, soon I hope.
I’m glad your daughter is dating and hope you coach her the right way. She sure should be proud of her dad, for you are a good man with deep feelings and they show even if you don’t want to.
Lots of courage and strength of body and mind to you. Have a great day.
Nisor says
Hi again,
Since I’m in the “neighborhood “ I might as well fish out some memoirs of my breaking up with my LO, now 51 years ago. It’s a darned long time ever since we saw each other in person. We were almost three years in the relationship, dating twice a week. We worked together, but we didn’t communicate at work. In the mornings I’ll come in to the office and turn to see if he was in. He never failed to be in . That was my kick or dopamine hit every morning. Sometimes, the secretaries will tell me he was staring at me like daydreaming, completely submerged in another world. I was very relaxed and secured in the relationship. UNTIL, one day he said to me he was leaving for another job. I was saddened, but I didn’t tell him. I just looked dejected. I was not looking forward to work anymore, so I started looking for a new job. I couldn’t stand the loneliness of not seeing him everyday even if it was from a distance. I realized how much my soul got entangled in the caresses and the embracing and kissing, being so intimate with him. Nothing changed with our dating, it was as usual . I got a new job and made a lot of new friends. Now I was free to banter and enjoy new friendships without LO (then SO) hawkish eyes and supervision, for he was very possessive and jealous of me talking to other males, even females at the office.( I’ll tell some stories about his jealousy behaviors some other time.)
All was going smoothly UNTIL one week he just took me out one time, (we used to go out twice a week), and it made a huge impact on me. Deadly impact! He didn’t call to explain, and my mind went berzerk with suppositions and doubts, like, he must have dated someone in my stead… impossible to take that out of mind. I knew then how attached I was to him. I didn’t like the feeling at all. I don’t want to be in a relationship that I have doubts. I must get out of this and soon before he ends with the relationship , I thought to myself. All these was going in my head. I could have called him, but I only have called him once in three years! I didn’t feel the need then to call him after work. Besides , when I called him that first time, his dad answered the phone and I realized he had no privacy. The phone was land lines back then, and it was in the kitchen. ANYWAY, after missing the date, he called and asked me out, I did go out with him but very hesitant. He didn’t mention anything, I kept silence and asked no questions either… but I surely behaved distant and cold as an iceberg. He noticed and said let’s go to the park. Never been to a park with him before. It must have been end of august/beginning September because the trees were already in their funeral time again , leaves turning red and gold. It was autum, my favorite season, when it’s not too cold or too hot, just perfect.
So we walked like two long , long shadows in the
twilight , both thoughtful and crestfallen, two empty shells. He said, you’re so pensive. – I said, I’m so bored. He asked why? I said: “this relationship is going nowhere.” He said: “like marriage ?”, I said- “well…”* he said: “ If we get married we will have to move to another state.” That did it!!! I didn’t say a word, but inside , my brain was racing at an uncontrollable speed . I told him:” please, take me home.”
He did, and kissed me on the forehead as always. I was so naive, I was numb and unable to handle a conversation about my feelings, I didn’t want to expose my vulnerability. I knew we were three years in the relationship and it was getting too predictable and boring. I was not thinking of marriage at all, but in doing more interesting things together, seeing him more often, even moving together but not marriage. I was always afraid of the responsibilities of marriage, the consequences of having children, etc. So, when he said about if getting married and moving to another state, I was confused, I was very, very introverted back then and didn’t have the gut for real time conversation. Need time to think and process things then act at my pace. But never asked, “what do you mean”, instead I thought he’s hiding something from me , or hiding me from somebody. I figured it was his parents not approving of me since he is from a clannish ethnicity. Aha, I said to myself, he may have a complex and I won’t allow him to tag me on that. I’m a very proud and private person, but no complexes. Nothing doing that gloomy evening. But I knew it was over!!!!
Two days later he called again and we went for a drink in a nice fancy bar. Again, this was new to me, never before took me to a bar, and I careless for bars. We had martinis and again I was very quiet, crestfallen, and he said: a penny for your thoughts”, I said, I’m bored please take me home”. I was not enjoying his company anymore…
As he left me home and kissed my forehead, and I walked away, I knew this romance was OVER. It was written that that night our love will die… I got home, took the mementos he had given me, a doll, love notes, photos, etc, packed and mailed to him the next day. I instructed my roommate to answer the phone from there on and if it was him to say, she’s not home.
He called two days in a roll at seven PM. A few days later he showed up at my work with the excuse to bring me an article in a newspaper I might want to read. (Never before did that..), I was relaxed but distant. He was wearing a new suit and asked me if I liked it. I said it’s nice. Petty talk, but monologues from my side. Seeing he was getting nowhere, I had my shields up, he asked me if we can stay friends. I said, we can stay friends. But inside me I knew I loved him too much to be just friends. I knew it was over. I had decided it so in my mind and and was stoic about it. Then, he leaned over to kiss my forehead and I leaned back and put out my right hand to stop him. He said:”what”?, I said: to my brothers I let them kiss me, with my friends I just shake hands”. We shook hands, and that was the last time I saw him.
Two days later he called at seven in the morning saying: This is LO-( name and last name,) and I have never before in my life loved another woman more than you.” And I said: now it’s too late”. He said: I just wanted you to know that. And I said: I have to hang up because it’s getting late and I have to get ready for work “. And those were the very last words said between us and the end of a beautiful lovely relationship. And I moved on without grieving the breakup, hence I think it is what’s happening to me now, 49 years later!
The time was never ripe to have the right conversation…
I’ll never know what was in his mind those last few weeks. I could have asked, but I didn’t, THAT is my regret, uncertainty that’s eating me up. I guess it’s time for his reprisal with me, if he was hurt with me breaking the relationship. Or maybe then, that girl (me) was right, she was following her guts feelings. ( i had planted in my heart this sad, passionate and crazy love specially for him, but I had to say goodbye to this love, even if I would always be thinking of him.). )Who can tell?
Now staying alone, knowing I had lost him forever, I know I have started loving him like I never loved him before. All thanks to a dream that brought limerence in its wings.
My dream explained on the blog: LwL/ dreams, second comment.
Have a nice week.
John says
Hi Nisor,
Sounds like you had something real and much regret. I’ve no idea if he was the same age but you were obviously young at the time. We were as well. We were only 20 and the last time I spoke to her I’d just turned 22. My 21st birthday was my best, 22nd by far the worst.
I cant imagine where I’d be if things got off the ground with my LO. Guess I’ll continue on with the term. Would I be better off or worse. For me she was more of an LO at the start and as I’ve said through some rather unlikely circumstances became my friend. We spoke only once a week and over the course of the year saw each other in person on 5 weekends. So what I had was much less than you.
It seems a shame for you it couldn’t just stay a memory. I guess you had the dream with your mind bringing him forward. Mine has never left my consciousness in all the years. I’d have married her and had a family in a heartbeat though we were too young.
Though I might not like the answers my hope would just be to find out that she ghosted me because she had to, just knowing that would ease my mind. But no it won’t happen. When I let go of the fantasy of seeing her again I get very down though.
If there was a way I could figure out how to get my email to you we could connect and I could send you the story. I would be so fascinated to hear your thoughts. I need to work on the second draft though.
I hope you have a super week.
Nisor says
Hi you all who live in USA, are you watching the total Solar Eclipse today? It’s awesome, I have seen one in Europe many years ago.
Have a wonderful week.
John says
Will be taking a peek I’m sure. I’m up in New England, the sky is clear so should be a great view.
John
Nisor says
John, you might be near my LO, he’s in East Brunswick… oh if I can only get there and see him…
John says
Hi Nisor,
Not far at all. I actually purchased my airplane project from a builder in Brunswick. I’ve flown there several times. It’s about an hour flight from my home airport.
That’s kind of crazy!
John
Nisor says
Aww John, that “nearness” gave me the chills! So close to you!
My LO is eight years older than me. We weren’t that young. Mind you, I’m in the winter stage of my life. A grandma, twice. Teenage grandchildren.
I was not young but very naive. And LO was reserved … he had been married before, divorced, no children. But I never asked him anything about his marriage or how long he had been divorced. I was not interested in details, just the love… I was mainly interested in my career and how to get some rest after a stressful day at work. It was very irresponsible of me not to pay more attention to the relationship. I always thought he was honest and a decent man, and still think so. I guess he was afraid of another marriage and failing again. He had great admiration for me and used to say “ you’re a very strong and courageous woman “. He treated me like a princess or a glass doll. When he would hold my arm to cross the streets he would say, “am I holding you too tight? I don’t want to hurt you.” He was for ever careful and respectful with me. I can’t say I have a thing on him, he was and is an admirable person. He was an authentic, natural breed. So was his younger brother. He had a beautiful family, all well mannered. Something I admired on him and them. I blew it! Like he told me two years ago when I connected with him again: “you’re not patient, if you had waited a little longer our lives would’ve been different now.” Then added, it was not meant to be, it was fate or maybe God.” My heart shrinks every time I recall our time together. I allot time apart to think about him almost every day, that way I don’t get distracted doing other things. Like you say, I don’t know ( if after limerence and such an awakening of the five senses) I would ever be able to forget or let go of these memories altogether. I think it would be impossible. Time will tell. The mystery of limerence will go on … I keep on saying: only acceptance and gratitude that he was in my life even for a brief period of time, and now is not , will be my only consolation. ACCEPTANCE , big meaningful word! Let’s adopt it.
Have a nice evening.
John says
Hi Nisor,
I had a similar reaction when my friend was telling me about his daughter and her fiancé who converted a bus into a camper and are driving around the country. They had to do some repairs and were broken down not far from the area I know she lives now.
My pulse definitely quickened and I could feel a bit of excitement. The excitement I only get in response to her. Actually getting it now as I write this.
I only know roughly where she is after looking her up on a social media account and was surprised I found her. It was during my cancer treatment recovery and I was worried about COVID since she had a few chest infections when I knew her I thought it could be a problem. I was very relieved to find she seem to be active on it and look like she was doing well. It’s the first time I knew her whereabouts in decades. A wave of relief when I found that.
I’ve gone out of my way to not dig much more but I still care.
Have a great one,
John
Nisor says
Good morning
John,
I think
I found in you my twin brother! We have the same feelings! Are you sure we’re not family? ha.
“My pulse definitely quickened and I could feel a bit of excitement. The excitement I only get in response to her.” Isn’t this strange of us, feeling excitement at the mention of their name or the closeness to where they might be or live? Why is that? Oh, these treacherous hearts of ours, impossible to tame… for ever silly romantics.
I also went on a site to find LO’s telephone number, after I had the dream about him. It was easy , very easy; I got his phone number, the address and there was a whole bunch of information, where he lived before, etc, I got frightened to keep on going. I didn’t want to know! After awhile, they asked me for my e mail address and I just didn’t continue for fear of breaching any laws. I even got the house he lives in and the area. There’s a saying that goes something like this: “What you don’t know it doesn’t hurt you.”
This December I got into Google and just typed his name and instantly got a photo of him, maybe on his 60th. I was at a party and people where on their phones looking for past friends, I tried and got his! I was so surprised to see him , for I had no idea how he’d look like now, and my heart almost leaped out of my chest when I saw him! I cooled off and when I got home I would look at him and cry. I did look at the photo for a few days but I haven’t looked at it for months now. Who could ever think, at this age, behaving like a teenager and getting excited about it! I didn’t know this could happen to older people! No explanation for that, except love has no age, because it’s eternal, divine, I don’t know where it all will end…if it ever ends! What say you?
Nisor
ABCD says
Hi Bewitched. Thanks for writing in. Its really great that you are feeling more composed after the 4 week NC. The 6 week NC worked wonders for me when it happened.
I agree with you – anticipating responses to texts is really frustrating. I tried a little trick that seemed to work well. I sent a text, but did not look back at the chat for a full 24 hours for a response. I got an urge several times during the day to check the response, but I resisted. As the day went on, I could feel my anxiety going down and down. Turned out I had got a response pretty early 🙂
I agree with you on the f2f interactions, they can take longer to bounce back from.
In addition, I am trying to feed my mind good thoughts (minus LO), hoping that my subconscious mind responds, giving myself a pep talk basically.
Wish you continued progress on your path!
Bewitched says
Dear ABCD,
Yes, you are 100% correct and pep talks do work. A lot of my mood seems to depend on what story I am telling myself in a particular week because I seem to tell myself stories all the time in normal life. That story could be about how x, y, or z is going, where x, y, or z might be anything from a friendship, to work, to a social group dynamic, to watching my health, to worrying about my family of origin, my SO, my child, etc etc. I tend to be an anxious person so lots of the stories converge on worrying about things going wrong or ruminating in general and then telling myself a story about it, so calm myself. Of course, when in limerence, that takes up more space than usual and my LO can take up so much space in the stories that I tell myself that it’s just borderline nuts/crazy. But, like you said, a period of NC just tones it all down where he takes up less space after about 3 or 4 weeks. And then I need to maintain that by – as you say – giving myself a pep talk, which could be anything from “focus on the things you can control”, to, “you are never going to pursue a real relationship with this person, its futile, just let it go”, to “look at the beautiful sky today, ain’t life grand?…”
I had some minor work contact last week and managed not to let it derail my thoughts too much. Still calm, still telling myself good stories 🙂
Have a great week!!!
ABCD says
Hello Bewitched. I’m really glad that your recent work related interaction with LO did not cause you much distress. This is surely a sign of progress. Keep up and build on the momentum, that’s what I tell myself! Onwards and upwards!
Over time, I feel, and this has been echoed by other LwL friends, that if you want to truly feel better, you need to want to feel better from the inside. You need to say to yourself – this is enough of fixation, I need to not go down this path again of seeking LO, I need to detach. I feel if you keep repeating this and believe this to be true, you will perform much better in terms of getting over LE. On the other hand, if you have thoughts like – let me meet LO less often, let me try and stay friends, I cannot abandon LO, this seems cruel, all this would hinder your recovery process. I am assuming here that one cannot be with LO due to a bunch of reasons (have SOs/ LO does not reciprocate).
John says
Hi Nisor,
It does seem we could be related at least in our limerence.
I too have been tempted by those sites requiring an email. I feel a need to be especially careful given my first trip to go find her. At least knowing she’s alive and well as near as I can tell provided some comfort. I’ve seen what I assume is a fairly recent picture and her eyes still get me.
As to why we feel that excitement I can only say the source of mine or at least where I think it’s from.
I was extremely shy, terrified to ask girls out. When I first looked into her eyes I was lost. Of course, at the time I had no real expectation of anything because this type of thing never happened. Then she was gone. The excitement of finding her and then the long waits to see her was insane. Hopping into my jeep for the nearly 900 mile drive to go see her was pure anticipation.
I’ve done some exciting things, been upside down in airplanes spinning to the earth, straight up, straight down. Those were all amazing, fun, a bit frightening and exciting but no one and nothing I’ve done makes me tremble like when I speak of her or my antics to win her.
It was a long shot that I didn’t succeed and oh yes back then I was the ultimate romantic fool. Fool being the operative word there. It makes me a little sad that I didn’t find the right girl who appreciated that but I’ve never found someone who captivated me. Or at least I’d never let it happen again. Sure seemed fun. Was it real? Who knows. Her dad thought so.
We definitely suffer from the same affliction. I assumed it would have ended by now. I was 20 then, mid 50s now and here I am. 32 years have passed maybe the same to go. I no longer expect it will end. I keep fantasizing about possibly bumping into her again. There are a few details I know of her from when we were kids, nothing terrible, but those things we’ve left behind in our past. Unfortunately, I’m part of that past.
Have a super night to my Limerence twin sister,
John
Nisor says
John hi,
Oh, the excitement of love/limerence and the romantic fools…!
Isn’t it funny how you can be a dare devil, audacious and fearless to do all those maneuvers in the sky with an airplane , and still be terrified to ask a girl out!!! This shouldn’t be. A lot of men, for ages now, have the same problem. I liked the story you told me before when the cats got your tongue and your friends had to help you. But you’re not the only one, and that’s something that bothers men a lot. I don’t know and wonder how they manage with
the online dating. I suppose it’s easier now…but a lot of fooling I suppose. Got to be lucky to find the one. Sounds like a market of commodities..
Those 900 mile drives of yours do tell on how much invested you’re in your quest to win her heart. That brings to my mind the song from Josh Groban: “ WHAT I DID FOR LOVE”. It’s a beautiful song, has a nice melody and lyrics. Even the title, speaks to me… One would climb mountains and walk valleys and cross rivers for the sake of seeing the one that captivated you. Better yet: captured you. For now we’re the prisoners of love/limerence. And who can save us from this?
Indeed, we suffer from the same affliction and with no hopes to cure it. Someday, maybe someday we’ll get tired of it and get rebellious against it , kick it out and say: enough of this nonsense! I do that sometimes when it gets too heavy on me.
Tell me something, since you’ve mentioned this before: how do you expect to “bump” into her sometime, if ever? Does she live nearby? I thought she was in Texas? Otherwise bumping into her would be like finding a needle in a hay stack. The stars have to be really aligned in your favor , or my favor for that matter, for that to happen. Don’t think I’ve not thought of it myself. I have fantasied I would bump into him in an airport while we’re both taking vacations! LOl! Fantastic encounters! Ha. And the dream keeps on going. What the heck, it’s for free at least! And the eyes, don’t forget the eyes, they are bewitching…we’re spellbound!
You stay strong 💪🏽 and at peace with the memories. Have a pleasant day.
John says
Hi Nisor,
It’s funny there are things I’m confident with like my work. Most things social not at all. Those I avoid. I am actually not inherently confident flying but I’ve always wanted to do it. If I were confident it would be my career and I wish it were. The reward is worth the risk. I’m past it now but going on a flight used to give me the same sick to the stomach feeling I’d get before trying to ask a girl out.
I do think online dating and dating services are easier. You at least know the other person is looking. Going up cold is terrible. I met my wif through a dating service. Where do you meet someone when you’re getting past your 20s? Finding anyone is like finding a needle in a haystack.
My LO, her I went after like I’d never done before or since. Why, those eyes. Initially it was physical and I’d have long forgotten her by now if we didn’t have a personal relationship though.
I wouldn’t say I “plan” to meet her by 32 years of fantasy and a very active imagination, there have been so many. She’s in Georgia now, so as unlikely at Texas. We’ve definitely bumped into each other at the airport, at the big airshow in Oshkosh, you name it. Remember, my fantasy is fueled by cosmic lightning striking once already.
When I went to find her in Houston, I knew very little. Not ever her name. I danced around a little detail. Read that last sentence carefully as to why I didn’t have much info. I knew the city, her car and that it had a scratch.
Standing in the 4th largest city in the US I was about to leave realizing the impossibility of finding her. If I’m anywhere at that moment in time I probably never do. With no place to stay, no leads and very little cash this was dumb. But right then an ex marine who just got robbed and needed help started conversation. Told me where I might find her based on the car and where she might be working. Gave me a place to stay for a week. The odds so much against me and yet when I found her she gave me big hug, a date and I left with her name, phone number and address and plans to see her again. And though I didn’t know it, her dad was so blown away that he immediately took to me though we’d never met.
It is all too easy for me to fantasize because I’d pulled off the fantasy once before. I shouldn’t have spent a moment with her after Memphis, not one.
It’s the very reason the non-goodbye was so catastrophic. It left me open to continuing that fantasy. This I have done dutifully for 32 years. Maybe I’m just a bit crazy 🙂
Have a super one!!!
John
Nisor says
John ,
If I understood correctly, you bumped into her at Oshkosh airport? Wow, what a coincidence, that’s sheer luck, a miracle at least! What happened, did you get emotional? Tell me about it , or is it’s just a dream?
You went there for the annual Air ventures? My children used to wear Oshkosh clothing. I still display a picture when they were small and wearing the OshKosh’s overalls. If we’re talking about the same place and clothing. I’m away for the last forty years!
I don’t think I understand how and where you first saw LO. I get the part with the marine been robbed and helping you find her, which is unbelievable, and you going on some clues about the scratch on her car, getting her name and phone number??? Which means you must’ve seen her somewhere before, I’m not clear on how you first set eyes on her. You better get that book finished and publish it so I can purchase it, hence I
can get the whole story.
You haven’t mentioned Memphis before, you mean Memphis in Tennessee? Im getting noisy, you’re stationed there? What happened there that it left you an indelible scar…? Why was she there? Im under the impression I have a confusion with all these “traveling “ with your memories in USA. You don’t have to answer any of the questions if you don’t feel it’s appropriate. I’ll understand. Ok?
Your limerent sister Nisor
John says
Hi Nisor,
Meeting her in Oshkosh is just one of my fantasies. I haven’t seen her since Houston on my last trip.
I met her in Memphis, TN. She worked at a club in Memphis. That’s where I first asked her out. I tried 3 times until she finally said yes. Shortly after and before we went out she moved to Houston. She had a friend who we also knew that was still there. It took a bit but her friend finally told me she’d gone to Houston or Cocoa Beach but wasn’t sure which. I picked my orders when I left Memphis based on getting to Cocoa beach and Houston was completely last minute since I was given leave before I went to my next duty station.
The odds of me seeing her again were so incredibly small. But I knew she may be working in a club and the car she drove and she was possibly in Houston. Odds of success were pretty much 0.
It was the fact that she might be working at a club and the car she drove that allowed the marine to basically tell me one of three clubs she might be at. He was right.
And without a doubt the boldest I’ve ever been when I saw her and she asked what I was doing in Houston.
“Erika told me you were in Houston, I knew you drove a white blank car with a scratch, and you owe me a date.”
She came right up to me a hugged me. It was insane!!!
Amusingly she had a little fun because while we were talking at her guy a couple guys came up to her and one asked her out. She said no, looked up at me and said “so, I your number I’ll give you a call and we’ll do dinner.”
The look that guy gave me was hysterical. Like how the hell did you pull that off. I still laugh when I think of it.
I do wonder the opportunities I let slip by. There were two I wonder about. One was my good friend who worked in the same shop. She was just getting married and pregnant. Her husband was deployed and I was her surrogate husband for house hunting and we hung out all the time. She would swap duty with me so I could go see my LO.
Interestingly, after I went to Houston my last good weekend there before I left for Iceland I watched the Super Bowl on my last weekend in Florida with April. She was quite a ways along and I was on the floor in her room, she was on the bed and she grabbed my hand to feel the baby kick.
Ironically, she caught her husband cheating, my LO chose a guy who cheated on her over me. So we both ended up available but didn’t seem right to ask so I didn’t.
There was one other girl but I’ve written a lot so I’ll save that one for another post.
Have a super one, hope I’ve cleared up the locations a bit.
John
Nosor says
John, good morning.
Ahah, now I get it, Oshkosh is just a fantasy, and why that particular place if I may ask? LO loves plain dives too?
Clear on where on how and when you first met LO. Those images, I perceive, are imprinted in your mind for ever. Like mine’s when I first met LO. Also, imprinted in my mind the last month of our relationship.I know I will never forget, for meeting LO and how easy it unraveled for the two of us, was like finding the Unicorn. Indeed everything fell into my lap so miraculously, when I was the least looking for a relationship. Before LO, I had a relationship with a fellow, a pharmacist, and pilot of a mayor airline, the second pilot in my life. He was from a foreign country also and asked me to marry me, and to go to his country to meet his parents. I was fond of him but not in love. Perhaps, if he hadn’t rush to ask and given me more time to know him well, I could probably have developed some romantic feelings for him. I told him, doctors, pilots, first responders are not in my list for marriage. I want my husband to come home to me at the end of the day. He was very disappointed and we didn’t continue the friendship. As I said, I was not looking for marriage at my decade of my twenties. I just wanted casual relationships, nothing serious. I loved my job and it was my mean concern then. There weren’t any shortages of suitors but I was very selective. Didn’t have a specific type. Still don’t, for I look at the personality first an his intrinsic feelings.
Still
a little confusion , your last weekend you say you’re in Houston, how did you end up in Florida with April? That’s a very long drive from Houston to Florida! I hope you don’t drive like you fly an airplane : adventurous and spinning speed! God forbid. Be careful.
LO caused you to do crazy things, a lot of antics and risky decisions. It was all like a divine appointment , the encounter in Houston! That’s more than luck! It was to happen as if by design… that’s a first for the records. Too bad it didn’t come to end the way you wanted. Hey, listen, that’s why we have limerence, because it didn’t happen our way, or else we’d have not cherish it so much. Once you have a dream come true, it’s not a dream anymore, then you start dreaming again about something else. Such is the human mind. Let’s enjoy our memories and let the legend to go on…
Have a great day. We have cool
sunny day here.
John says
Hi Nisor,
Can’t say I blame you on your limits on SOs in terms of careers. I’ve heard some horror stories there.
I don’t imagine my LO likes to do crazy things in airplanes. If she did, yikes I’d be in more trouble than I am now. I go to Oshkosh for a massive airshow every year with my best bud. We’ve known each other since high school. It’s a giant airplane builders convention. In 32 years of fantasizing seeing her again it almost always involves travel of some sort. This is just one such fantasy as unlikely as the next. But I always have that seed planted that lightning could strike twice.
My first trip to Houston was “on the way” to Florida from Tennessee. Yeah it was a bit out of the way. That was in May of 1990. At the end of that trip I reported to Jacksonville. I got there with $6 in my pocket and almost no gas. That trip was so crazy. It will never be topped.
In addition to my first trip to Houston from Memphis, I made the drive from Jacksonville to Houston and back 3 more times before I was deployed to Iceland. My first trip was in July for my 21st BDay. Best BDay ever. Thats when I first met her dad and when I got to her house he pulled me and told me we needed a picture together. How’s that for meeting a girl’s dad!
The second was Thanksgiving weekend of the same year.
The last trip was before deployment in late January of 1991, that was the weekend I stayed with her.
Then off to Iceland in February where my world came apart. Not so much because she found someone but because she just told me I could go and stay two weeks then got her new SO on the phone a couple weeks later telling me not to call. It was highest of highs to lowest of lows very quickly.
I went one last time the following August 1991 after returning from to say goodbye. The failed goodbye as it were. And that’s when she got engaged. I doubt that was as coincidental as it seems. I bet he did it because I was there. Maybe he perceived me as much more of a threat than I would expect. She did hang out with me the whole weekend even after getting engaged.
So I did 4 trips of 1800 miles on three/four day weekends. Crazy! I too thought things had to be meant to be given the incredible luck of finding her that first time. Those trips were in addition to the first insane trip to find her.
As for April, I was stationed in the Navy in Jacksonville FL, April and I worked in the same shop together.
Unfortunately, I also lost touch with April. Her squadron left when mine was coming back and she was gone when I got out of the Navy so we never swapped contact info. I have gotten in touch with two Navy buddies who worked in the same shop and we are trying to find her.
Back to the LO…
I did a search as I do from time to time and looks like my LO just started a YouTube channel. It’s in her maiden name. Got that super excited feeling we both know. I haven’t acted and won’t but I’ve not found her with public stuff often. My natural inclination is to assume that she doesn’t want me to find her again so she is mostly private on the net but she has a picture posted and her eyes are still amazing.
Oh well, it felt good seeing her even in that way.
Have a super day sis!
John
Nisor says
Hi John,
“But I always have that seed planted that lightening could strike twice.” You can say that again! That’s hope. We have to kill all hopes of ever getting to see our LOs again. But, no matter how much one tries, hope never dies, it’s the truth. In the back of your mind there’s a ray of hope, and if destiny helps, well, welcome. But we’re not desperate looking for it to happen. Since I had limerence 2 years ago in May, I’ve questioned myself if destiny put us together then ,(51 years ago now) without me asking , if it brought back LO in a dream, when I have never thought of him, we’ll, there you go, what’s next? lightening could strike twice!!! But how? it has to be by divine appointment! Super fantasy ah!!!
“That trip was so crazy. It will never be topped.” You’re talking crazy alright! Who does those things anymore, or even back then? You have to be so limerent to travel on an almost empty tank and only six dollars in your pocket. “What I did for love” song, I dedicate it to you! Won’t forget, won’t regret what I did for love…
When you have your birthdays or Thanksgiving, do you get misty just remembering? Song: “ THE WAY WE WERE”, Barbara Streisand, also dedicate this one to you.
It breaks my heart when you say “your world came apart”, I relate to your feelings, because my son’s world came apart when his wife divorced him. Boy, was that excruciating!!!!
I cannot say my world came apart because of the separation with LO, but something died forever inside me… I buried the love of my life, my beloved…It took me four years of sadness and sorrow, still was functioning like nothing happened, but only God knew the depth of my loneliness . That’s why it’s showed up now. I’m going through the grieving I didn’t do then, and it’s bad.
In your case it looks like a betrayal by LO. Betrayal, one of the ugliest sensations, emotions, feelings, any person can have to suffer . My Lord, I cannot concibe the pain! And still you went back to her place , perhaps thinking there might be one last chance, even to say goodbye. And even that was denied to you… Gee, that’s heartbreaking! You’re so young and so in love it’s understandable.
Not being able to formally say goodbye got you where you’re today with your emotions. There’s no closure. The uncertainty is a thing which is keeping you bonded to her. Darned uncertainties they can’t never be resolved!
Do you know if she ultimately married that fellow? How would you know…
Good that you had the luck to see recent pictures of her .
I certainly would like to see pictures of my LO, how he looks in his old age, is he still handsome and thin… I would not mind seeing him old all. He’s my beloved and it won’t matter how he looks. There’s a song named “ And I love you so”, Shirley Bassey sings it beautifully. I dedicate that one to my LO. It shrinks my heart when I listen to it. I don’t play it anymore.
There I go, written another book to you.
Have a great evening my limerent brother. Hugs.
John says
Hi Nisor,
Seems we share the book writing here as well. Of course having an outlet helps.
I think if you did what I did then, you would surely end up in jail. Even then I’m surprised because I told the marine, even told the whole thing to the valet at her club while waiting for her to come out. It was a different time I guess.
I don’t really celebrate my birthday. It’s just a day. After my 21st there was no point. It was as good as they get. Oddly, Thanksgiving is the only holiday I like. It’s the most low key. Probably because I only went out that weekend and was driving on that day I don’t associate it. It was warm in Texas and I associate the start of winter with it.
The time I find most difficult during the spring, around her birthday when things went bad. This year is worse than most but most years are at somewhat difficult.
Thanks for the musical references. I’ve finally stopped listening to Country which she got me into and associate all of it with her. I don’t listen to other types of love songs much now either.
My favorite band Haddad a song called, In the End, with a chorus
“I tried so hard
And got so far
but in the the end
It doesn’t even matter”
Unfortunately, a big piece of my heart and soul also died.
Perhaps I’m just a fool but I’ve always struggled blaming too much on my LO. It was my fault for most everything, I’m pretty sure at any time if I’d just stopped she probably wouldn’t have been too upset. I wrote her, called every week. It was not possible for her to call since I lived in the barracks but she could have written. I think she could have been more honest about meeting someone, I’m guessing I got caught in the crossfire and she was probably upset with him when she told me I could could come out for two weeks. I doubt she would have entertained my antics so much if her dad wasn’t so crazy about me. I’d convinced myself of all of this until that last weekend when her actions were simply baffling. Why she didn’t take the opportunity right there and then to be free of me I’ll never understand. It was there for the taking, an easy out.
The only thing worse than hope is false hope. Hoping for things robs us of action, false hope makes us do stupid things.
Speaking of stupid, right after returning from my Birthday trip so I was completely crazy for her, I took a private pilot ground school. It was every Monday night for a couple hours. There were 6 people in it. One was a girl named Liz, I can’t picture her now but I recall she was rather pretty. She sat next to me and we hit it off. She was studying electrical engineering and I was an aircraft electrician so we had much to talk about. We chatted before class for about 6 weeks. After class dispersed we would continue to talk every week for a good hour. I don’t recall ever just meeting a girl and there being no effort to talk. I wonder if she ever thought when is this guy gonna ask me out? She at least shared an interest in my one passion outside of my LO which is flying. I gave her a whole bunch of my notes from aircraft electrician school and we went over wire drawings before class once. If ever there was a setup for me, that was it. And the thought crossed my mind. Although funny thing. It wasn’t until I thought to tell you about this that it occurred to me I should have just asked her to study for the final test with me…DUH.
I was so wrapped up in my LO I just might have let a golde opportunity slip right through my fingers. But of course she could have had a boyfriend. Who knows.
Well sis, it was my turn for the book. Tag your it:-)
Have a great one,
John
Nisor says
Hi John,
The crazy stuff you did ‘ in the name of love’, I’d surely not do unless I was under the influence of limerence!
I see you associate seasons with her, like spring and her birthday, little things , details, which stay in our mind throughout so many years! Unbelievable!
I associate places and little details with my LO, but not days or seasons. Like I remember the month of his birthday but not the date. Yet I associate and remember him teaching me things like playing chess, putting Lemmon on the rim of an expression coffee cup, opening a lobster or cleaning a shrimp, or making a cross on the flat side of a chestnut so it doesn’t burst out while roasting, etc, etc. Every time I do these things my heart aches of yearning for him to be by my side. I also recall his beautiful handwriting and his hand on my hands, he used to place his hands on mines every time we were out for supper. So being in the kitchen it’s memorable for me.
I perceive you don’t want to blame your LO for not the relationship with her but still she “allowed ” you to be around her all that time. She liked the validation no question about it. Of course she could have shunned you, instead she went along with it. Since you’re caught in the crossfire with her bf, maybe she wanted to make him jealous with you… but limerents don’t give up that easy, ha. You’re stubborn as a mule, just be satisfied that you did all you could
for the sake of love. Love is a many splendored thing! Look at it as LOVE, in general, and don’t attach it to anyone in particular. We’re the romantic fools, and we praise it and sing an ode to ❤️ LOVE!
I have yet to come to terms of whom to blame for our separation. It was destiny maybe. It was not meant to be. I had a premonition , the minute he changed jobs, for we worked together, that it was the beginning of the end. I felt this fear of abandonment, though we kept on dating after that. After, I got me a lady roommate for I was feeling the loneliness of his departure from work. Now I knew how attached I was to him. I asked him for the key to the apartment I had given him, we looked at each other ever so sadly, but didn’t say a word to each other. Things were unraveling pretty fast. I pushed it to the extreme. I was sure there was a smell of “death” on the air… it was a month of examination of my soul and mind and reasoning. I expected him to read my mind and ask me “what’s happening “?. But he didn’t get a clue until the last day we talked when he made his great “ love statement “ and I told him: now it’s too late. Indeed it was too late. We both moved on, but the uncertainty of it all remained for me. What if I’ve said I love you much
more? Which was the truth. I think back now and see what girl (me) wanted to do: she had resentment, she wanted to punish him, she wanted to show him she didn’t need him, she wanted to be herself again, for he has managed to be antisocial because of his jealousy, she didn’t want to depend on him, she wanted to be free and start afresh. She wanted a new chance at love. She was strong and confident she could do it and be happy with someone else. Yes, it was the greatest decision I ever took in my life, to undo a relationship I dearly cherished. ( for he was my Unicorn, my dream come true, the love of my life). It was shutting down my feelings and desire for someone for ever. And this ,my friend , is what’s grieving me now.
“I have convinced myself of all this until that last weekend when her actions were simply baffling. Why she didn’t take the opportunity right there and then to be free of me. I’ll never understand. It was there for the taking, an easy out.”
There are things we will never, ever know, unfortunately, for these are the things that will set us free of bondage from the LO. On this statement of yours above lays all your uncertainty to solve your conundrum. But life is cruel and it won’t give us that pleasure to set us free, prisoners of LOVE!
Golden opportunities, a perfect set up to date Liz, the student, well, since you were so in love with LO, nothing else would have caught up your attention at that time.
After my breakup with LO, I started going out, but I knew could not see myself with someone else so soon. Yet one night I went to a dance hall with live music with my friends. I just wanted to keep them company and was lost in my inner world. Everybody was dancing and I sat at my table alone smoking my cigarette.(I don’t smoke anymore for a long time now). A fellow came close and asked me to dance and I said no. He asked can I sit with you, I said fine. All the eyes in the room were on us! He was the singer, a very handsome tall man with a beautiful romantic voice. He asked my telephone number and asked me out for dinner and a show somewhere else. I reluctantly accepted because my mind was on LO. He was kind and gentle, generous and a real gentleman. He asked me out again for supper. When he brought me home he proposed to me! It was egregious! I had a nice conversation with him, he was my age, but I told him he’s too young . That he deserves a younger girl. He said but I’m your age. I told him I like older man. I also told him I don’t want a singer for my partner, they have night life I m not a night person. He said he was an accountant that he can leave the singing. I said that’s not fair to you either. He would not give up so I told him that I was in a healing process from a breakup and it’s not fair to him because I’m not prepared to be attached to someone else so soon. He cried! And I felt so embarrassed! Didn’t know what to do. So I asked if we could stay friends and he said he was not looking for a friend, that he had plenty of friends. I got three males proposed to me either in the first date, second and third… to me that’s too soon to propose to a woman, my humble opinion. I think he could have been a great candidate to supplant LO, and I blew it because my mind was on how to get LO out of my mind, and I didn’t want to fool this gentleman. He stayed friends with my friends and always asked for me. I was not ready for a new relationship.
Golden opportunities that slipped through your fingers…
Have a super great weekend, limerent bro.
Nisor says
John
Correction: you don’t want to blame LO for not staying in the relationship with you
Espresso coffee cup
My LO had managed to make me an antisocial person because of his jealousy
John says
Hi Nisor,
I’m not sure even limerence is enough to make someone do what I did. I think you need a screw or two loose as well.
I think in days and seasons because that all I had. Met her in the winter, found her in the spring… each little chance of a day or two with her was in its own season. The only season I didn’t see her was when I was in Iceland but that of course stands out on its own.
I confess I was the biggest romantic in my youth and I thought it fun at the time. No longer. I’m unfortunately very cynical of people, like you’ve become anti social.
Who’s to blame, as I said before I see myself as the villain. I truly don’t understand her motivation. She did say the most secure she felt was after talking to her mom on my last trip before Iceland. Maybe I provided some security. Maybe she wanted it still which is why she couldn’t say goodbye? Then he told her she could not speak to me after I left. This I could live with and move on.
I learned the one person I could never trust with people again and that was myself. So no more romance, no more getting out of control no matter how much fun it is. I am even quite controlled with my SO. I’m definitely a different person.
I did almost give up several times on the first trip even after I found her. I found her on a Sunday. She didn’t call on Monday so my two new Marine friends decide they wanted to meet her so provided me with a fake idea and we went to the club. Joe, the guy who got robbed told me to stay at a table and asked me to point her out to him. She came running over, gave me a big hug. That was and is still one of my favorite things. Said she was really busy but would definitely call. Joe came over after she went back to work and said, Wow, ok I see why you went after her.
No call Tuesday, I almost left. No call Wednesday until about 2. I was actually out cashing my check when she finally called.
I will share one more girl story. It should give you a really good idea of how shy I am and how much more my LO must have gotten to me.
Prior to meeting her so this had nothing to do with her, I was heading back to my navy school. A rather attractive Marine asked me to watch her things. Pretty sure we were both in uniform. We boarded the same flight. After arriving, we had a bud to take back to base. The navy required us to buy our tickets in advance. Not so with the Marines. So my new friend had no ticket. I gave her mine and purchased another. On the way back to base, she fell asleep with her head on my shoulder. Her friend was behind us and I caught a glimpse. She was very disapproving. When we got back to base my new friend said that she and some friends had a room over at the navy lodge and invited me to come for the night. I s politely declined. Goodness what was wrong with me. I met my LO probably a month or so later. Then lost my marbles.
My LO had kissed me on the cheek the night I met her, my buddy noticed the lipstick and I wiped it on a tissue that I still have. I showed it to her on our first dinner. Looney!
Your situation sounds so much more complex. You had a romantic relationship. Difficult feelings and dynamics. I’ve never really been in that situation prior to building my defenses. I can only imagine the challenges.
I don’t celebrate LOVE, it is for fools. I played the fool better than most. Never ever again. I want validation that I meant more than nothing so I can have dignity and not guilt with what I did. I don’t love the 54 year old woman, I don’t know her. She is a stranger. I want the 22 year old broken me to talk to the 21 year old girl. But as we’ve said. This is not to be. Early on I told you my main emotion is anger and that’s its manifestation. Anytime I feel like I will be remotely hurt I replace it with anger. Not good but it’s kept me safe.
I do hope you don’t blame yourself. If he was jealous that’s no good. Even at my worst I was never jealous but I had nothing to be jealous of, she was never mine that way.
I’m having a tough time today, when I found her YouTube channel I thought I might hear her voice again and it might provide a path via a nice comment but it was likely one of her kids school presentations so it was a dead end. That was disappointing. I’d love to hear her voice.
Good luck! Have a great rest of the weekend, Sis.
Your bro!
John says
Oh and Thanks. Think you came up with a name for my story…
“Seasons and Days”
Haven’t come up with one I liked.
Nisor says
Good morning John.
It’s a beautiful spring day here. Sundays, SO and I go to church services then to the Hilton Hotel for coffee or lunch. Or, sometimes we get together with my son and grandchildren for lunch in a restaurant of their choosing . Cannot go for adventures anymore due to age. We’re planning a trip to Italy but now I’m concerned with what happened last night in the nearby area… flights cancelled and lot of stranded people at the airports. Bad, we’re living in perilous times…
I’m sorry to hear you feel down today due to your expectations of hearing LO’s voice were dashed. I don’t know how these YouTube channels work, I’m not a techie … but can you tune in some other times? For sure, hearing her voice would be a great reward. But aren’t you afraid of getting addicted to it? It was the greatest reward for me to hear LO’s voice after forty nine years! It was exhilarating! But also painful . No thanks, I don’t want anymore pains. At least your connection won’t be direct. I don’t know how’d you feel if you hear her voice again, you be the judge of that. At some point one asks : what’s the use of so much suppression?
I think you meant something special to her in some ways, otherwise she’d not have spent the time with you. You provided her with peace and security, someone she could trust. Remember her father telling you she was loyal, he knew his daughter better than you.
You need to know that people at that age are not mature enough to distinguish or discern between reality and falsehood. Everything is looked at with a tinted lens. It’s the purity of youth blooming when falling in love with the opposite gender. You have to move from this stage of life if possible with the help of therapist. After the first blow one matures faster. You cannot spend the rest of your life like this. As it is now, you have a job and hobbies to keep your mind occupied. But when your age for retirement comes, you’ll have all the time to yourself and it’s not wise to reach that age ruminating so much about LO. I’m concerned for you in this regard. I don’t want to sound disappointing but old age does not cure Limerence. The mind never ages nor the soul. So, one has to make a tremendous effort to cope with it. There’re times tears of frustration rolled down my cheeks not being able to communicate with LO, slowly but surely I tame the monster not to give in to my wishes.
I understand how you felt about being shy and not being able to ask a girl for a date , lost opportunities, and how crippling and stifling that might have been. That’s in the past now. You don’t have to go through it anymore, right.
Coming back to your anger, it may come from an underlying disorder, I read, such as alcoholism or depression. You need to deal with this too, but perhaps not by yourself. I hate seeing you suffering for so many years now. It’s unforgivable.
About the book, when you publish it, wouldn’t SO know?, how are you going to keep it a secret?
You’re really something else, ha, keeping keepsakes as a tissue with lipstick from LO! You’re really in love, what an injustice to your feelings! So many women would have appreciated that much love. Can you look at your SO in a more romantic way? Try getting close to her and use that pent up energy on her. She is real and close to you.Im now showing more love to my SO than ever before and he appreciates it. You know, we are never the same person with different partners. Each one has theirs characteristics and we become different people with each other. Wet always in evolution, we do not remain the same all the time.
“I played the fool better than most”.
No, you didn’t, you’re in love at a young age and that’s what happens, everyone gets hurt at that age, I did too, but I got over it! Just to go again and taste of the same fruit and got hurt again, this time real bad. But I hope will shake with Gods help!
Do you know the song: Everybody plays the fool.” ? I don’t recall who sings it, but it’s nice one. You have company! I used to like this song back then when I thought of myself a real fool! And I was one for sure…this was way before my LO. I’ve had my share of heart breaks but nothing like LO!
Have a wonderful evening and have courage. Remember the Wizard of Oz. Courage, you are a lion!
Nisor
John says
Hi Nisor,
Yes, the world is a crazy place. I hope you can get your trip in. It’s nice to hear you can be romantic and living with your SO.
My marriage has been a challenge. My SO can be as stubborn as me and we see things very differently. My daughter, when she was only seven, once asked when I was taking her to school. Daddy why are you and mommy together, I can think of a thousand reasons your different and not one that your the same.
We’ve both softened over time but she has never been the person I could express my feelings with. I’m much more likely to do that with a stranger than someone close. A stranger can’t use your weaknesses like someone close can. I don’t really desire romance and doubt our marriage would have lasted if it weren’t for our daughter. It makes it hard. She doesn’t get along great with my mom and has been rude. We’ve discussed this and it’s improved but if I side with my family ever it’s an attack on her.
I was extremely sensitive growing up, when I went all in with my LO I exposed myself to a level of hurt I was not really capable of handling. It probably would not been so bad if it was somewhat gentle. I went to Iceland worried she’d meet someone. Really, it was only a matter of time. It was the visit for two weeks to stop calling not even from her that was soul crushing.
If she’d told me herself it would have been better.
As for YouTube it’s just a channel is just a service people can post videos. She only had one video of I assume her daughter, giving a school presentation. So no way to hear her voice. I’d argue my addiction has run long enough that it’s worth the risk. I’d risk contact just to see. Alas, my catch 22. You could look up your LO and call. I can’t because I had to find her once and she ghosted me, if I look her up I risk proving I’m nuts. If I don’t contact her, I go nuts. I’ve been trying to crack that nut for 32 years.
I’ve proven time and again I’m definitely not an alcoholic. I’ve drank a lot at times but can always stop, didn’t drink for 15 years before my cancer treatment. People came to fear me drinking a single Guinness as the only time I did that was when I was giving my notice at work. I drink a beer or two with my buddy every couple months. I don’t appear to be addictive with drugs. Came off my cancer pain meds as soon as I could. Docs thought a bit to quick but I hated them.
Depression, definitely have it at times. If I had to guess I’ve definitely got undiagnosed ADHD. But most of the stuff for that would prevent me for flying. Nope, rather be dead than not fly. But it’s my only other addiction. My anger is a response to not being in control. That I do not like one bit.
I was talking with my buddy setting up dinner plans so we can plan our annual airshow trip.
I’ve been painting a room and commented it’s a lot faster now that I don’t use masking tape. Of course it looks like 5 year old painted it. I should have paid more attention to painting in the lines. My buddy who knows me better than anyone started laughing, “Woody, you’ve never painted in the lines”. Metaphorically speaking. I commented the last time we were out that I want to make sure the can play My Way at my funeral. He was like, you’ve got that covered:-)
He and his wife are headed to Alabama to pick up a puppy, they are making a side trip to New Orleans. I commented, with as many times as I’ve driven by I should have gone once. At least gone with my roommate Keith who was from there. My buddy pointed out that I had other things on my mind(LO) Did I mention how well he knows me. I said, he was my roommate after. Ahhh, BB. Even my close friends recognize there is pre LO, and post LO phases of my life. Most people who know me before call me Woody, after just John. B is obviously her first initial.
There’s a few crossover of people who knew me during mostly Navy.
I don’t look forward to retirement, certainly one that does not involve flying. My hobbies don’t really keep my mind off the LO anyway.
The picture of my 21st is my favorite and I’ve got my souvenirs that I could never part with though I’d expect if I went to a therapist that would be task 1. Funny how her Dad had to tell me to put my arm around her. I sometimes wonder if he was real. If ever there was a devil on my
shoulder urging me on, it was him.
This is so much a part of me. I know age won’t end it. I expected that long ago.
Where it goes? Who knows.
I think I was all over the place there.
As always, thanks for listening dis!
John
John says
Hi Nisor,
Forgot to mention the book above or more likely short story. If I do publish it I’ll likely do it under a pseudonym. I’ll probably change names and details to hide at least my LOs identity. I believe if you use actual names you need permission anyway. Either way I doubt my SO would likely see it. It’ll likely only be published online.
Have a great week,
John
Nisor says
Hi John, how do you feel today? Hope it’s a good day for you.
You made me laugh with the quote on LO’s father urging you on:
“If ever there was a devil on my shoulder urging me on, it was him.”
I can only say he was impressed with you and your tenacity to win his daughter’s heart . He liked you, no question about it. It was not meant to be. Can you reconcile that in your mind?
When I read
“Alabama “, I immediately thought of you going bananas , that’s where LO is, isn’t she? Got all excited? Making plans, maybe… it’s feasible….
I think your sensitivities come from the undiagnosed ADHD. I know of mild ADD , first hand, read books, back then, there was no internet. You can find a lot of information in the internet about ADHD, that can help understand your inner being and what to do to make your life easier. ADD people are very intelligent, do multitasking a lot, but need discipline , like running every morning and extravert to get rid of all that energy they seem to have, so they can have a more serene day. Also making notes on things they need to do during the day, need to learn how to organize themselves. They go on an energy streak for days to just crash later on, when they have used all that energy and can then relax. No wonder you did all those trips from Florida to Houston!
You have a smart cookie for a daughter! She can read you (parents). both! . It’s a pity you are both stubborn and can’t reconcile your differences, as you say the marriage is just holding on because of your daughter. That gives you more incentive to think of LO, I presume. The in laws are always a problem in many relationships, needs to be handled with kid gloves. Wow, if one thinks of it, getting married carries a heck of lot of problems. If I had to live again, I think I’ll stay single, no, better yet, with a lover…
That visit for two weeks to your LO in Houston keeps on bothering you, and it will till the end of your life, if it doesn’t get resolved somehow. Then there’s the bf telling you not to call and the ghosting. That is like a Caterpillar crusher going over you and leaving you flat! There was no access to her in any way. There are certain things one cannot digest, this being one of them. But how to deal with this? I can only think of Acceptance. One tries to think of ways and process these things but there’s no answer, except acceptance or one goes nuts. I was going nuts, that’s why I called LO, it was a big risk, a gamble! And I don’t gamble or drink…Very emotional, he didn’t ask why I was calling, we just talked as if it was yesterday we talked last. After asking each other how are you, his first question to me was: “Did you get married ?” Go figure! I don’t regret I called. I didn’t feel rejected by him , on the contrary he treated me very polite and warm. So, I have to close this episode of my life as best as I can, with a lot of questions unanswered, but for sanity sake it needs some closure soon , and just keep the sweet memories for ever, without the pain. Can I, will I? Time will tell.
Ok, I get it, on how you will publish the book. Good luck with that. After, you can write my story, ha.
Have a great fruitful week.
Strength and courage.
Nisor says
John,
You say: Anger, is a response to not being in control, that you don’t like a bit.
Nobody likes to be out of control . I’m usually a very calm person but SO can get me out of my wits… LO was very calmed and composed, in good charge of his senses, I admired his attitude. Oh I loved him so!
Here’s an article for you:
“Anger management:10 tips to tame your temper “
Site: Mayo Clinic.org.
Nisor
John says
Hi Nisor,
Better today, over the disappointment of not hearing her voice.
I reconciled that I’d not won her heart in Iceland. The two weeks that didn’t happen followed by the BF saying not to call was just crushing. But I accept it. The pain of how I felt is something I’ve never forgotten. That’s merely a reminder to never let your defense down.
Remember I went for closure on my last trip. I fully intended to say goodbye. It’s this and the ghosting I’ve never been able to accept or even process. That’s when I stopped trusting myself. It’s the part I don’t think I’ll ever get past. What did I mean to her, if I could trust my assessment of that but I can’t. I’m sure she’d forgotten the conversation we had in the b-day trip. We were in a mall going to see a dress she had purchased. Just talking and I don’t recall the exact dialog but I said I hoped to never lose her again. She told me social security number so I could always find her. It was pretty strange. I didn’t memorize it because as I told her I have your name now. It was an odd conversation.
She is in Georgia, close to Alabama though. But my route was Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, then Texas on my visits. My buddy will be doing a chunk of my trip so naturally we discussed that. But yes, generally anywhere in that area gets the heart rate up a bit.
There is a chance I’ll meet up with an old Navy buddy on my way to our yearly airshow trip. He’s not just any buddy. He was with me when I met her, pointed out the lipstick and made the comment that kicked everything off. “You know why girls go out with the A..holes? Because they ask”. That started it all. I’d have probably not gone back and asked her out without that nudge.
I read a quote I can relate to this morning…
“Angry is just sad’s bodyguard”
I’m not running around in a rage but if I sense I’m losing control especially with my feelings I will revert to anger as a substitute.
I have a weakness for a good happy ending. Especially a Disney happy ending. Gotta be careful or you might just catch a glassy eye or tear sneaking out. Somewhere deep down that sensitive person might exist.
My marriage is much better than it was. We learned to back down in some ways. If I could choose I’d do things differently. It just hard to feel overly romantic. Certainly won’t replace feeling associated with LO. For year those have not been romantic though. It’s about the hurt as a person.
That impacts all my relationships since. There it’s about measurable value not about liking me as a person. What can we do for each other. Then if you don’t need me it’s not because of who I am. It took me a long time to recognize this and understand the mechanism.
There are really an incredibly tiny number of people I’ve become “close” with since then. I don’t mind it because I’d much prefer to be alone when I’m not working. The only downside is there’s always some extrovert who thinks everyone should go to the company Christmas party. Hate that though they finally dragged me to last year’s work Christmas party which was the first I’ve been to since I was in the Navy:-). I’m working at getting out of this year’s already.
The subject of time travel came up when I was out last night planning our trip and my buddy commented if you had a Time Machine we’d have no problem finding you:-)
Any way thanks again, I’ll check out that link. Hope you are doing well today too.
Bro
Adam says
“Then if you don’t need me it’s not because of who I am.”
This took me a long time to realize this. I feel you John. I didn’t take the transference of her reliance on me to her gentleman friend well. I took it personal. I wasn’t needed anymore. It seems kind of silly to think about it now. I guess then I didn’t realize I was playing an old fool. I think part of it was I put too much of my worth as a person into what she needed from me. And when he came along and she stopped needing me it was crushing.
Now I am trying to invest that energy into my marriage again. Focus on how I can be useful in my present relationship and just wish her the best in her own direction in life.
I use to say when I first started posting here over a year ago, that if I did have a time machine that I would go back but change nothing, just to relive it again. Now I am starting to see that the damage and pain that it costed me and my family is not worth the highs.
John says
Hi Adam,
I started my family well after I met this person, about 12 years between the last time I saw my LO and when I started dating my wife. I was only 22 the last time I saw my LO.
The biggest impact is that it pretty much defined my view of people in general. It’s not necessarily something I see as problematic. I’m inherently an introvert anyway. I just don’t expose myself emotionally like I did for my LO. I was certainly playing a young fool.
It’s been 32 years now, I do only wish her the best and told her that our last time together. Because we didn’t say goodbye I’ve always hoped to see her one more time.
Oh, if I could relive that time again I wouldn’t hesitate though I would make two very tiny changes and finish with the goodbye I should have. But obviously that’s not possible. A brief chat would be fantastic though.
I’ve just discovered the term limerence and this site. Since I’ve been no contact for a very long time I’m not exactly sure what my goal is.
John
Nisor says
Hi John,
When you have time, watch this video: (Sorry , I don’t know how to link)
Mathew Hussey. 7 things I wish I knew when I was dating.
1) you’re not for everyone
2)what we want and what we need are different things
3)hard to get doesn’t mean great to keep
4) intention is everything
5)get out of the middle- be decisive don’t overthink
6)NEVER ABANDON YOURSELF FOR SOMEONE YOU WANT
7)just because it’s right doesn’t mean it will be easy
We are not dating at this stage , but there are points to ponder and apply to our situations. I think, like “abandoning ourselves “, that’s what we did. Now we have to recover our wounded souls and look at life from a different perspective.
Great day to you bro.
Nisor says
John,
Also look in the internet : “Abandoning yourself”, tons of information there.
Good reading.
John says
Hey Sis,
I’ll check that stuff out. Thanks.
It’s funny. I actually don’t think I ever got to the phase where I abandoned myself. No one who knew me well was particularly surprised. I’m an all in kind of personality and all the things I did to try to win her affection, while over the top, we’re not particularly out of character. If she didn’t nuke me, I’m sure someone would have.
Now would I have abandoned myself if I got her, I’m guessing yeah. I’ve never doubted I’d be a different person today but that’s always true.
What’s amazing me more in hindsight is how I’m generally still the same just not with people. The change I effected to not get hurt again was dramatic and effective but that was after and not sudden since I didn’t date for 5 years it started more with general interactions.
But with time, I’m also much less likely to hurt myself. I used to be a madman on a mountain bike or skis. It’s a miracle I’m still here. I never got badly hurt so I did it longer but we don’t heal as quickly so I don’t really do those things. I don’t consider that abandoning myself. Funny thing is, I got together with the group I used to hang out with in high school last November. I even initiated it. It’s been near 30 years since we were together as a group. No that’s not a coincidence. But of the 6 of us I was the one as they referred to it trying to find ways to kill myself. No not suicide just daredevil stuff.
From what I’ve read, it didn’t sound like you abandoned yourself. You fell in love and got hurt. Maybe you repressed that hurt for a long time. I never have, never tried. I don’t regret what I did. Just wish the blow had been softer or we’d said goodbye so I could move on with closure. We never made love but I’d take the time with her over any woman I’ve been with more intimately.
That’s one thing that scares me on here, there is no closure stuff. Ugh. I’ve built that up over all these years. If you take that away I have nothing to hold onto.
Perhaps I’m just at crazy but that’s not out of character.
Have a super day,
Your bro
Nisor says
John bro,
The messages got crossed! You sound great today. That’s my boy! I can be your mom….
Nisor says
Hello John,
I don’t know where to start but I picked up your bleeding heart and anguish and how it all has affected your life.
These heartbreaks are definitely defining moments in our lives. No second guessing. Your view and opinion of others changes for ever, leaving a bitter taste in your mouth. Behind that mask, the strong man you want to portrait, is a wounded man , sad and overwhelmed with emotion and grief, you never worked on to release it; and you locked yourself in your lonely castle. But I also gathered that you are a funny guy, have a good sense of humor, and can be very pleasant to be around, only if you let the shields down and allow the real you come out. I understand very well why you don’t: the pain , you’ll never forget and now believe everything else is like that experience with LO. I really admire your resilience and resistance all these years. A wound that , according to you, will never heal. If you went to therapy, do you think it would do a great change on how you feel? Would it be worth a try?
“What did I mean to her, if I could trust my assessment of that but I can’t.”
Oh, John , you’re thinking of the impossible dream here. That’s my eternal question for almost two years now. And I think it is of anybody that has gone through this affliction as us. This is a puzzling question no one has the answer to because LO’s are what they’re and aren’t aware of the pain they have caused the limerent. For them, everything is ok. That’s why you hear of vengeance and things like that in the movies, writings but more on real life in the news.
I think you’re a happy, carefree person before LO, were you? Your shyness did you in? I was shy too, but it’s different for the boys because they’re the ones that usually have to make the first move, and the terrible fear of rejection is always there.
Your navy buddies helped you a lot to overcome some of those fears with LO. They stick together with you till today. At least you have someone who knows your antics with LO back then and you can share with them. I have no one I know that knows my LO and me, for LO was very possessive and never liked friends around us, except his younger brother. I got along very well with his brother. LO told me, when we talked two years ago that his brother passed away. If he was alive I could keep the friendship now. I have no other connection to my past and LO. So, it’s him, me and the LwL community that know about this LE.
I see you’re ahead of time working at getting out of the year’s Christmas party. You make me laugh, also the Time Machine and your buddies knowing “where to find you”.
It’s nice to socialize when you want to, not by force. I used to socialize a lot every week, but I’m not in the mood anymore. I’m a house cat 🐈⬛ now. It’s been difficult for me living abroad, we had a group that gathered weekly and we became very good friends, but they were employees in the country from different corporations and embassies from different countries , and when they leave it’s very sad. We were saying goodbyes very often and it was taking a tall on my emotions. I have kept friendships through telephone for years now, but I want f2f contact too. I have some good friends, foreigners married to locals, so they are not going anywhere … TG.
Life has treated me good I guess, so I shouldn’t complain, if only this LE went away like in a miracle the same way it came….
The trip is postponed indefinitely because I’m afraid of some kind of war or reprisals taking place soon. I don’t want to be caught stranded at an airport under any circumstances. . The airspace gets closed down and airplanes have to divert routes to somewhere else. The delays and chaos that develops I don’t want to be part of it.
Strength and courage L friend.
John says
Hey Sis,
Not sure therapy will help or if I’d be willing to do what’s necessary. The very thought of getting rid of my photos of her and us is almost overwhelming. I know I’d have to, I’ve known I should. The last photograph she gave me on that last weekend I should not have accepted. I told my good friend, I’m going to the grave with this and I want to be buried with those pictures and of course that tissue.
I actually lost track of my Navy buddies immediately after I got out in 93. I started looking them up just recently on social media after my cancer treatment. That’s when I started to crack a bit. That’s also when I started reconnecting with my group of buddies from high school as well. I’ve had people in my life come and go and I just let it happen. Better to not be attached.
Outside of family until recently I’ve only maintained one friend from Before Brigdet. He knows it all, he’s seen the impact cancer treatment had on me. He brought me to my long day of treatment each week. Though I’ve never stopped thinking about her, the last two years it’s been tough as I’ve reconnected with people from that time I’m not sure if it’s better or worse. No one I’ve reconnected with has asked, why would that I should be long over it.
There is a movie set in Memphis, it does a quick shot of the club I met her in. I did mention the movie/club to the buddy I was with when I met her but that’s the extent.
I wouldn’t say I’ve ever been happy or carefree. I can be friendly and certainly can have fun but prior to meeting her I’d never had a relationship and really wanted one so this was always a source of frustration. My one Navy buddy gave me a nudge, after that the boulder was rolling down the hill, and after I found her, pretty sure her dad was running behind it giving it a push:-)
I too have had a good life, I’ve done some incredible things. The guy who taught me aerobatics is one of the top performers in the world. When we go to the airshows I think I’m one of the few people here he’s taught personally. That’s cool. Those days of adventure are behind me for the most part. I enjoy all of this memories but I miss those with her the most. I’m afraid therapy would require me to forget those or minimize my feelings. Not sure I’m ready. She’s been a part of me since the first time I looked into her eyes. I’m a lost cause:-)
Not that I was in contact but I think I felt similar to her Dad as you did your LOs brother. I, too was saddened recently when I found his obituary. He passed way back in 2005. The year I got married. What an odd coincidence.
Always a pleasure,
Bro
Nisor says
Hi John,
This song for your LO,
Barry Manilow, “ IF I Should love again.”
John says
That hits home!
A bit of irony yesterday. My daughter is seeing a therapist for anxiety and A psychiatrist thought it might be a particular disorder. So my wife and I went in to discuss it with the therapist.
As she was going through the symptoms, I was having a lot of back and forth discussion as we were getting my daughter’s input. When we left and my daughter was still finishing up her session. My wife turns to me and says you’re a psychologist.
Pretty amusing given my resistance to therapy:-)
We were discussing things later in the evening and I said I felt she probably thought got some of this from me. Even though I said it before she always seems surprised. Told her sure I get depressed all the time and she was like how do you hide it.
Anyway thought it was funny. She asked if I’d considered therapy and I said no, not inclined too. Pretty sure I can track my issues back and gave her a tidbit that I’d been hurt in the past which I’ve told her before. We left it at neither one of us think it’s good to be vulnerable.
It was an interesting discussion. Doubt I’ll tell her much more. She seemed to know not to ask for more detail.
She seems to think my mood is very stable which makes me wonder if she’s the one whose been living with me for the last 19 years:-)
Funny though, I know a lot of Barry Manilow’s stuff and that one doesn’t sound familiar. I just looked at the lyrics. Will give it a listen tonight.
Hope all is well,
John
Nisor says
Hi John
It’s very touching your friend was taking you to the cancer treatments. That’s what friendship looks like. Not words but acts. I hope you’re over it now. People don’t like to talk about this issue as if we’re a sin. Where I live they’re always campaigning for cancer care and prevention, on tv or outside, whether it’s for children’s leukemia, women’s breasts, or male prostate, or colon cancer which are the more common ones. It’s alerting the population to take check ups often. But people wait until it’s too late most of the time. I have lost two friends to cancer. We’re not eating healthy anymore or taking care of our bodies, other times, it just happens. What can we do…
Back to LOs , good memories are bound to be cherished in our minds for ever, right? Can LO be a healthy part of our memories? In some people’s cases it is , if they don’t have the pain to deal with. After limerence, the awareness is so vivid, hard to forget! And when there’s no closure, the rumination never ends completely. No closure leaves the brain traumatized by the sudden emotional turmoil and it seeks an explanation to the NC by taking you back to the old memories. Your brain is burdened with whys and what ifs. If you haven’t had closure after such a long time you’ll find the process of letting go a lot more challenging.
You’re not ready yet and are still holding onto the hope that you can work things out. Having LO in your life when you’re not completely over them is very painful. There’s always the ‘could have been’ and the dreams, plans and expectations that ended along when one separates for good. It’s the absence of closure that doesn’t let one get over LO. Without a finality the transition might seem unacceptable for a very long period of time. And this unending thoughts continue without a resolution.
And how are you going to get the tissue , pictures etc buried with you? And playing “I did it my way”? Ha, your navy buddy might have to get a hold of that for you. It’s morbid to think of it now. But if that’s your wish you got to think about it now. I have no mementoes to bury with me from my LO because I mailed them all back to him , when that fateful night it was written our love was to die….(the night I decided to walk out for good, cold turkey, and not to hold into any keepsakes.) So he’s only in my memory…
My mantra is : if LO wanted us, they would find a way. They like the attention they get from us, (the ones that know we care) and truly, do they deserve it? What a waste !
Hope you’re feeling fine today . As always strength and courage. 💪🏽
John says
Hi Nisor,
Average day here. Hope you had a great day.
I’m all good with the cancer. It was actually throat cancer which was a heck of a surprise since I’ve only smoked a couple cigarettes. With my LO at the club she worked at. Go figure. I haven’t been a heavy drinker since getting out of the Navy. It was not a cancer I was in high risk for, it was viral from HPV which is becoming more and more common.
I waited several months from when I noticed it was sticky swallowing until diagnosis but was still early enough, docs guessed based on thx tumor size it had probably started a couple years prior.
Not sure if you caught my LO name drop, I did spell it wrong so it wouldn’t show up in a search.
I don’t suppose if I haven’t let it go after this long I ever will. I don’t expect to.
I know it probably sounds like a broken record but she did me in that last weekend treating me with such kindness and spending time with me even though she’d just gotten engaged the prior evening. It would have probably been better if she treated me like dirt.
It won’t be up to my Navy buddies. I’m not close with them. My one friend who has helped with treatment has been my best friend since my freshman year in high school. We’ve known each other over 40 years. He’s family.
As for getting those things buried with me, still working on it:-). He’s currently the only one who knows.
I should have done what you did so long ago. You had more with your LO. It’s come back anyway. I look at our pictures from time to time. Know I shouldn’t. Boy I look happy. If you could see the two of us together, you’ld probably see why I can’t give them up.
I’m not hoping to patch things up, just like to know if her memory of me is at least good. I sure hope so. There are very few people whose opinion of me I care about. I know it shouldn’t matter and it’s a waste but I’ve always cared for her and hope she at least thinks well of me.
Oh well,
Have a super evening sis.
John
Nisor says
Good morning John,
Those precious moments we spent with LOs are unforgettable! Oh, those precious moments, my heart aches thinking of those precious moments!
I only had a ‘near death’ moment with LO. An extremely bad feeling, that is: your soul, or spirit leaving your body… the sap of life escaping your body… excruciating feeling!!!
One morning I didn’t go to work, I felt tired, so LO called me and it went like this: – hello, I said hello, and he asked- why didn’t you come to work? Are you sick? – I said I was ok, just wanted to take the day off. Then he threw the bomb: -“I don’t want to talk to you anymore. Yesterday, I was at the steps of the building and I saw that man putting his dirty jacket on top of you, I felt like wringing your neck. I went back to the office but I had to leave, I never sweat, but I was sweating profusely I had my shirt all wet with sweat, I had to leave and take a shower. So, please hang up first, I don’t want to hang up on you.” All my strength left my body, and my mind racing , came up with: “ I just wanted to make you jealous “, he said” oh you did”?” (sigh of relief) . Then he said: “do you want to meet and walk by the boulevard this evening?, I said yes, and he said, he will pick me up at six.
It happened I had gone out for lunch with two fellows from an other office in the building, not my coworkers, and as we ey approaching the building it started to rain badly, and this gentleman kindly put his jacket on me so I don’t get wet. I thought it was a nice gesture of him. I didn’t know LO was there watching and I didn’t think it was something for him to act that way, and take it so seriously and to the extreme to end the relationship. We’re just three months in the relationship. When he called that morning to terminate our relationship I realized how deep and involved I was with him. I don’t know how I got to answer with “ to make you jealous ‘“ know where that came from! But it saved the relationship. I have learned he didn’t trust me , and that he had a bad temperament, too strict and possessive, I was not engaged to him for him to behave in such a manner. I learne I had to shape up and be dismissive of everyone from now on if I wanted him in my life. And I wanted him in my life, at a cost, of course… I felt he was molding me to his liking and I didn’t like that a bit. But I completely conformed. I was learning his ropes. I wanted to be at peace and comfortable with him. I loved him soooo much, and was afraid of this strong feelings for him. Never felt like this for no one else before, and it was beautiful but frightening!!! I was losing myself into his love for me. This was the worst experience I had with LO, there were other scenes like this, but not as devastating to me as this one. I’ll tell you more later on.
The pictures you keep are your precious legacy from LO. Knowing you’ve never been so happy before, how can you depart from them? It’s the only thing you have from her. She is unforgettable to you! Brings this song to my mind: “Unforgettable you”, Nat King Cole.
I very well understand how important it is to you that she thinks well of you. And I’m sure she does.
I know LO thinks well of me for he told me it himself in the last two communications I had with him two years ago. He said- I only say good things about you. ( I don’t know to whom, maybe his wives for he had gotten married twice after me).
Also he said- I only have good memories of you. And thanked me for -“the good moments you gave me”. Also he said,- “thank you for reminiscing me in your mind”, And his last words were: “We have to be grateful for what we have.”
As you can see, my memories of him are beautiful till the end. How could I ever forget! And this is the reason for my deep sadness.
I noticed you dropped the name of LO, when I saw it felt you have misspelled it. Now I know you did it on purpose. It’s a beautiful name, by the way. My LO’s name is very common but not his last name.
O, wow we are like getting our feelings naked at LwL! I like sharing my feelings with you because we have loved our LOs with a tremendous thirst that can never be quenched. One time in our lifetime can one love like that. It would be exhausting if we have kept our LOs, or loved again with that intensity!
You have a wonderful day and stay put. Hugs bro.
Nisor says
John,
After Lo “threw the bomb”, we met at six o’clock that evening. As I got in the car I saw the seat divider down. I told him sarcastically, oh, you want the divider to keep us apart? He said , putting it up, it was like that when I got into the car. ( his dad and brother used the car too, it was a black Cadillac). So, I immediately , somehow showing my upset, said, oh I know I should have not come.”
He got very angry and his eyes were rolling and he hit the dashboard of the car with his fist. I was not frightened of him anymore after the terminating phone call that morning. I thought he was cute, even mad, and smiled at his gestures. He has a low rasping voice that even mad it sounds delectable!
Anyway, the event was forgotten, never mentioned it again.But he was driving fast for the way he usually carefully drove. We went for a walk side by side by the boulevard, at one point he just put his arms around my shoulders, then held me tight in his arms, kissed me … and the irksome moment was gone, done with till next jealously episode.
One light jealousy episode was right in the office. Two CEOs from Singapore and Hong Kong had come to visit the company and wanted to learn
the procedure of our handling their accounts. The general manager of our company was with them, and the three of them were bending over me as I showed them the details; when the phone rings, it was LO, desperate telling me to get those men from being closed to me. I could not believe my ears! They’ve set aside to give me privacy, and I explained LO who they were and the reason for what they were next to me. He told me don’t hold them much more, they just want to be close to you.”I just said ok. It was my job to do what I have to do. Incredible LO! Ah, but my job was the most important thing to me, even more important than LO, work meant my lifeline. I had to support myself and pay my bills. LO knew he could not interfere with my job. I was very sure and firm about my priorities. And work came first. He never interfered again when visitors came from other countries or from local corporations.
I still don’t know what to make of his behavior, though ? What do you as a male think about that? My SO is completely the opposite, he’s not jealous or possessive and I feel free to behave as I feel fit, under the circumstances. He trusts me very much. I call this LOs jealousy scenes as “jealousy attacks”. They still perplex me till this day. Never before had that experience with anyone of my affairs. The things one learns by just living and “mingling “…
There are a few more jealousy attacks. I’ll tell you some other time.
Have a super peaceful day.
Nisor says
Correction: LO said: “ thank you for the beautiful moments you gave me.”
That son of a gun , was getting romantic after 49 years of silence! It made my heart shrink! He was an adorable admirable lover like no other.
John says
Hi Nisor,
Yes, we’ve certainly opened up to each other. I don’t think there are many who can relate to our situations, at least not yet. I hope for their sake they never do.
As for jealousy, I can say I’ve ever felt that way myself. Certainly, one needs to be able to understand the difference between a personal relationship and a work one and trust your partner at the very least in the work ones. I now see some of the troubles you were experiencing. That’s pretty rough. Of course, you loved him but to feel that kind of jealousy and lack of trust seems an impossible situation. I can see why you broke it off. It seems your relationship with your SO sounds healthy. My opinion, it sounds like you did the right thing. That level of jealousy would not make for a healthy long term relationship regardless of how much you loved him.
I laugh when I think of her SO being jealous of my friendship with her or perceiving me as a threat. I wonder if he gave her an ultimatum resulting in my conundrum. Some things you and I have discussed made me actually wonder if they had a big argument about me after I left. She spent more time with me than him the day after she got engaged. She should have politely asked me to leave and not seen me that day. Especially after her dad basically threw my actions in his face when he came crawling back to her.
I’ve loved that name for a long time, thankfully not super common since whenever I hear it I get lost in memory land. The combination of her first and last name is very uncommon making super easy for me to find her. Unfortunately, mine is super common. When I finally reached out to Navy buddies and high school friends it turns out they couldn’t find me when they tried to connect. Even if she wanted I doubt finding me would be easy. Not that it stops someone who really tries but a bucket of crazy luck is sometimes required:-)
I hope you have a super rest of the day. I do really enjoy our chatting.
John
Nisor says
John bro,
We certainly hit it off well with this friendship. Wish we could meet in person and share, laugh and cry over our ‘venerables ‘ LOs.
I have time to chat today because the cleaning person (he’s a male) is here and I have to keep quiet in one corner. I prefer a male because they have strength to move furniture around and get the glass off of some windows which are not easily accessible to clean. Besides , I used to have some cleaning ladies and would be sloppy and talk a lot on the phone, and one stole some stuff, I didn’t trust her no more.
Here’s another of LOs tantrums: on a Saturday morning we headed off to the horses race track with his brother. As we entered the building, I was by LOs right, his brother to the left, we were not holding hands, and were walking to find our place to sit, when a stranger passed by us and uttered a flattery to me, what a beautiful woman, he said. I said, how stupid you are. Oh boy, what was that for! LO got so mad at me, grabbed me by the arm and said: why did you have to answer him? His brother looked shyly and worried at me, I shrugged my shoulders and we kept walking towards our seats. LO kept silent all day long, won’t talk to me or his brother, just slightly to ask me if I wanted something to drink or eat. I chatted away with his brother ignoring him all the time, not looking at him either. I figured he would come out of it for his brother’s sake . But no , he was stubborn and silent. He loved betting at the horses, and this stranger and my stupidity ruined it for us. I already have got used to his tantrums of jealousy, I don’t know if it was jealousy or whatever. For every time it was something new. Time to go home, we walked to the car, he was doing the driving , and opened a cigar. He knew I didn’t like the smell of cigars , but he did on purpose to upset me. I just made a negative gesture with my mouth, he was looking by the mirror and saw me. I think he got a sense of revenge on that case… On the way home, sometimes his brother would talk to me others to him, but being careful not to fuel the fire anymore than it was. They drove me home I said goodbye, it was evening already. LO gave me the “silent treatment “ for a whole week. But , I never called him, only once in three years, so he always had to initiate. He did call one week after, to ask if I wanted to go out for dinner . I said yes, but neither of us brought the incident back to be dealt with. It was forgotten. Until the next tantrum …
We had a lack of communication, he didn’t say how he wanted me to behave, and I didn’t know how to handle it either. I didn’t know what he wanted to teach me, or was it a battle of the wills? It would have been easier if one us initiated the conversation, but we never did. This lack of communication drove me to take a decision which I didn’t want to but I knew no better. After LO, I really learned what and how to handle myself and say what I liked or didn’t. I became selfish and in control of my relationships from there on. Wish he can see me now. But time is running out for both of us and it will never, ever happen . (Sigh) He knows how to reach me if he wanted, he’s got my phone number and address. I don’t have any expectations that he would ever call . I was his love, his doll once. I wonder if he called his wife by those names and behaved with the same jealousy as with me. He divorced ten years after. Waited sixteen years to get married again at 63. Guess he had his share of heartbreaks during his life. He will always be my beloved! Good things don’t last long… and life goes on indifferent to the past.
I’ll rest now, ha. Enjoy your day, the daffodils 🌼 are they in bloom already by your region? They bring me joy.
Nisor says
John,
I’m pretty sure your Los bf had a jealousy tantrum or else he wouldn’t have answered the phone and telling you not to call back again. Some men have a way with women on how to control them. LO probably was concerned not upsetting him, even after he cheated on her. That’s for certain they must’ve had an argument over you being there. Like why is this fella’ hanging around you and you giving him
all that attention? What’s going on, etc. etc. It’s like a sore finger. No question about it. Put yourself in his shoes , how would you react? I’d be mad as hell, and probably walk away. Do you know if they ever got married ?
I also have a common name, and cannot even find myself in the web. But LO has my number and address. I have sent him a Christmas card! He didn’t send me one. And certainly my number shows on the two phone calls I made to him.
I’m pretty sure his SO is not allowing it , for she controls his phone or they share the same phone . He told me he has a Sat phone, something like that , to send photos by mail. . There’s a recording on his phone with her voice to leave a message, when I tried in between the two calls. He definitely told her and she became apprehensive. I
wonder what went on with them. What did he tell her… She has all her rights as a wife, to not allow him, I respect that; but we’re old what the heck.Or else she thinks I’m a mate poacher. I called when my Limerence was at its peak! I had no reasoning, totally out of my common sense. Only LO existed in my mind 24/7! My lizard brain had taken over my executive brain by , I would say 95%, was on automatic pilot. If I had small children to take care of, or working outside , I would have been out of commission. Not able to function properly. It lasted this way ten horrible months. It’s being getting better with time. I don’t know if it will ever stop after this awareness of Limerence. How terrible this thing is! Like you say, I don’t wish it to happen to anyone else. We’ll go to the grave with this unresolved conundrum. Ahh 😦
John says
Hi Nisor,
O, I absolutely don’t blame him for being mad. Honestly, when I told her the night I arrived that my plan was to get some answers and head right back to base, she should have accepted that and let me leave. She should have never asked me to hang out for the weekend.
When I asked about him answering and telling me not to call she at least told me that’s not what she wanted. Had I not shown up I know we would have never spoken but she had no reason to lie. Her response when I arrived was to send him away, invite me in and told me to ask any questions I had. I was calm, obviously emotional but never raised my voice. I never once did that in the almost 2 years I knew her. I have no reason to think she lied. She also told me she was not surprised I was there.
Like I said, after she accepted his proposal she should have told me goodbye instead of driving around with me playing that song and asking my opinion of him. I think that was unfair to both of me and her SO. I went with it because I was still expecting to say goodbye.
I’ve made one and only one judgment of him. He cheated on her. Outside of that I was envious that he’d gotten what I do dearly wanted but I still offered goodbye. I told her that I wished them happiness.
Did they get married? I do believe so. Maybe two decades ago, probably more I searched for her. Not as much info but she was on MySpace or something her last name was different and there was a connection to someone with her new last name and his first name. I suspect it was him. Don’t know if she had children, been divorced or remarried. I suspect she has at least a daughter, possibly a year or two older based on that video. It seems like the only two accounts of hers that are public are both in her maiden name.
I think by and large I’ve accepted romantically we’d never be a thing. I could have accepted that last goodbye. At least I’d likely have moved on sooner, still damaged and wiser but far less so than being discarded.
John says
Hi Nisor,
Spring is just kicking in, not too much blooming yet.
Sounds like some pretty rough times. A man shouldn’t have to teach a woman how he wants her to act. Sure we can let people know if there are things we don’t like or that really bother us. It sounds like things might have been rough for you if you had stayed. It’s a shame. It doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong.
I wonder how I would have treated my LO if we actually had a romantic relationship. There was only one time she gave me kind of a dirty look and I regret that to this day.
She was on the floor with her sister and her sisters fiancé. I was on the couch, she motioned for me to come down. It was the night before I would leave to go back to base before Iceland. I declined, I don’t know why, I just didn’t feel comfortable I guess. She gave me a look. I’d do anything to have those few moments being a little closer to her.
I’d love to get you my email address then I could get you the story. My nickname is woody as I’ve said, it’s also the first part of my email. I can get you the rest over a couple comments and then we could correspond and I can get you the story.
What do you think?
John
Nisor says
John,
You missed those little chances you didn’t take advantage of. Oh, if only we were given another chance!
No, I don’t feel I did anything wrong, how could I ? I only had eyes for him! These tantrums happened at the beginning of the relationship. After he calmed down and it was a smooth sailing. We got used to one another. He was old fashioned and very strict. Sometimes I think he could have been a narcissist??? Little that I know…
About the e mail I don’t think is a good idea, because we have revealed a lot and it might fall in someone else’s hands we wouldn’t want to and do swindling or bribery. I’m on this site because I feel safe and protected by Dr. L policies . I don’t know if he even allows us exchanging emails publicly. For our own personal protection of privacy. If you could mail it to Dr.L
and have him mailed to me? But, then again, I don’t know if he would take the risk or become
the mailman for us. See if you can work it around that. But if you publish in the internet all you have to do is send me the site. Or you wanted me to read it before you published it? Or opening a mail box in a post office , then closing it? I can’t do that because SO is always around and he handles all accounts. Use your engineering mind, and think of something; mine is dull … ah, these limerents are really something else…
💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽
John says
Hi Nisor,
I’ll keep working on it, though not sure I’d want to publish the link here either. At least the version I figure out how to get to you the names won’t be changed. The published one I would. It would be nice to have someone review who I haven’t verbally told the story but we’ll see.
I’m glad things smoothed over for you. I wish I’d had that chance. I don’t look back at the things I would change thinking it would change the outcome though, just little tweaks that would have made things a little better. She chose him over me even after he cheated. I did everything I possibly could and failed. As they say, I left nothing on the field. They say there is no shame in defeat if you do that. I’m not sure the same applies in love.
It’s interesting, I’m going hiking with a friend I haven’t seen since high school. We ran together. He had a friend had a heart attack and asked me to pray for him if that’s my thing. Said, I’ll keep him in my thoughts I haven’t prayed in a long time, bet you can figure out when I stopped.
Hope you have a fantastic day tomorrow.
John
Nisor says
Hi John,
Have been out all day. It’s a beautiful sunny day, it’s a pity not to enjoy the sunshine after a dark winter. I love the flowers, and the magnolia trees are in full bloom, the birds busy building their nests, the bugs zooming around, the lady bugs showing their beautiful colors , it’s RENEWAL time again. Everything is new. It is a harmonious symphony of sounds and colors! And love is in the air, you see the youngsters with their smiles to a new, or perhaps, their first love, holding hands, they look happy and full of hope , and one wonders … how many of them will be crying when winter comes again? I will write here a poem I have kept throughout the years, a poem of a youngster’s heart ache, perhaps of her first love. Like yours, it was your first love, was it?
NO SHAME IN DEFEAT. *Leaving nothing in the field..
They say there is no shame on defeat if you do that *, “ I’m not sure the same applies in love.”
To me, it does apply. You did everything you could possibly do for the sake of your love for LO, left nothing in the field; and that should please you, and be satisfied and proud of what you did. That it didn’t work out, it wasn’t in your hands. You put the ball in her court…
It’s not like me, at the end, I did nothing to retain my love, I was a coward or too proud ( can’t figure out which of the two), to make a phone call to save the relationship. The ball was in my court… I didn’t pick it up. There are many things unspoken that I would like to talk about to him. But now it’s too late, too late. When the rivers flow, those waters are never the same, they are not coming back, if you lose the opportunity to capture the moment, it passes like water down the river; never to catch it again. So, what’s the point of all this pining about LO? Why this affliction? It serves me to become more humble, more understanding of humanity and its travails and pains. To be less selfish etc. I come to the conclusion, that ultimately, it’s that one feels rejected, (whether that’s true or not in reality) that one didn’t measure up to the likings of the other person. Not that they’re better, but that we’re not the right match, or that piece of the puzzle that completes the puzzle for them.
We’ll never know.
It’s wonderful you’re connecting with old friends; I lost track of any friends from school since I have been moving to other countries at different times in my life. I feel I don’t belong anywhere anymore… if it wasn’t for the church that gives a sense of fitting somewhere.
I wasn’t going to any church until I felt a profound loneliness in my soul, not because LO, or any other need, but I always felt this hole in my heart that could not be filled with human love or any material things. I needed something higher, supernatural. I found in Jesus when I was 38 y/o. I have a beautiful testimony about my conversion.
I see, since your disappointment with LO, you don’t pray anymore… yes, many people go away from God for not coming to the rescue when we’re in need. But it doesn’t work that way. He may be closing doors or putting obstacles to keep us from further detrimental behaviors. We usually make our plans then ask God to approve them. It’s the other way around, we involve Him in our plans making we ask Him what to do. Then He helps us find the correct way and blesses it for us. Praying is not saying or reciting a bunch of words, but it’s like talking to a friend, something natural. As for example , Lord, I have this problem please help me with it. You need to open the Bible to use His words and His promises. There’s an answer for everything in the Bible. For everything there’s a purpose. Mainly, to get rid of our ego, that’s proud and doesn’t want to die, otherwise we would be free in our minds and have spiritual peace. There I go, not appropriate to say these things in this blog! But, we certainly need spiritual peace and healing.
I hope you have a good time hiking with your friend, a lot to catch up!
Courage and strength 💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽
John says
Hi Nisor,
Feel free to say anything to me. Regarding anything. I was raised in Catholic school all the way through high school. I never prayed to get her, just give me a chance to get through that deployment.
Ah, young love. I’m too cynical. I just watch and expect the worst. Maybe I’m just envious I never experienced young love with someone who reciprocated.
Regardless, today I went flying. First time weather permitted in some time. It’s my happy place, it’s oddly peaceful yet requires great focus to do well. I love that dichotomy.
For me, flying alone up in the sky, 100% reliant on my skills and decisions. That is where I draw my strength. No flight is ever perfect and I always look to improve. It’s where she is furthest from my active consciousness as well. Though at slow times I do wonder what she would think if she saw me.
So few get to do this. I like that. On Facebook, the only thing I share are pictures of my flights or my experiences.
Ironically, today a flying friend is on a trip with his wife. Only 5 hours flying time to Georgia he reported. I’ve never mentioned anything about that to him. Total coincidence:-)
I sure wish I’d had the chance to show my LO how dedicated I would have been. She’d have not wanted for love or attention. I can’t say that’s been the case since.
Enjoy those flowers and the Spring.
Have a super one,
Joh
Nisor says
Hi John bro,
I’m grateful for your kindness towards me. Thanks.
I’m curious, how come you joined the navy when you have a passion for flying? What made you recruit in the Navy???
I bet those flying antics are an all thrilling experience! Understanding of the precision and full awareness while flying, full control of your senses, where there’s no room for LO…
I’m glad you enjoy it and look forward to it all the time. That’s something to be porous of . And being the student of that aerobatics teacher is really cool!
There’s a movie titled: A guy named Joe”, a pilot, I don’t recall a thing about the movie but the name stayed in my mind for some reason. Black and white movie, I think it’s with Glen Ford. One of those funny things the mind stores without a reason…
Wish LO can see you now, and dream of going on one of your flights! There’s also a song with that title: If you could see me now, or something like that.
Did she know you liked flying an airplane?
I cannot imagine how it is going through youth without experiencing reciprocal love. I had my first experience at fifteen. I was in the ninth grade and this youngster approached me, we have been exchanging glances… we never talked about love, but held hands, and he would carry my books. It was a thrill expecting to see him every morning and holding hands for a fleeting moment. I have given him a blue topaz ring and he was carrying on his neck chain. I was so happy! But my cousin told my sister, and my sister threatened to tell
Mom, and for sure she said, you would be out of school. I was terrified of not being in school. (Mom was not a monster, but I believed my sister). So the next morning when he came close to me I asked him for the ring in a very harsh way, and he returned it to me. It meant it was over. Never again looked at him. After, I moved to another high school in another town, never saw him again, though we lived in the same town. As understand from my sister, he new got married. I don’t know if he had other love affairs which left him down. I also once had a dream with him that he had come to my rescue… but it didn’t bring me limerence, but a sweet memory of this “pure” times of my life. I would like to see him again and tell him the reason e I ran away. Do you see the pattern here. I tend to run away from love, wonder why..
I know if you had a chance to show your love to LO, she’d be lacking attention and love. I feel our pure love for someone is sacrificing, humbling, and passionate, all consuming! Maybe God didn’t allow it because LOs would probably get indigestion! Too much love is no good…measured love, is the recipe, but the both of us don’t like it that recipe.
Got to go now. Hugs bro.
Nisor says
John
Correction: something to be proud of.
Nisor says
Gosh so many mistakes, ply forgive me, but my son is visiting and I feel pressured…
Correction:
I know if you had a chance to show your LO , she would NOT BE LACKING LOVE AND ATTENTION.
My pure love at fifteen, he NEVER got married.
Nisor says
John,
I love this song, it touches my heart:
“
Tom Jones- ( It looks like) I’ll never fall in love again.
(The Dusty Springfield show 5th sep 1967)”
Not only the song breaks my heart , but Tom John’s resemblance to my Lo is incredible! Except my LO was leaner and wider shoulders .( he played American football in school). But his gestures , mannerisms, hands and smile, tallness, it feels I’m seeing him in person!!!
I don’t know how jones was in person or in private; add the charisma my LO had, and his raspy sweet voice, his flirty personality, and I melted in his arms every time we saw each other.
You can imagine, how everything broke inside me when his brother told me about six months after breaking up, that LO got married…. If he had waited longer, I would’ve now believed his last words to me: “I have never before in my life loved another woman more than you.” And “I wanted you to know that.” I then got the gut feeling he wanted me to change my mind but still no compromise or commitment. No, I didn’t give up, and stuck by my decision. Then, 49 years later he had the guts to tell me, “you’re not patient, have you waited a little longer, etc.” But I didn’t dare ask: wha would have happened if I waited a little longer ? Lost a lot of opportunities to make clear the questions I had in mind to ask. I got disarmed when I talked to LO. Lost all the sap of my body, if you know what I mean. That’s why I knew I could never close this chapter of my life; and the emotional drain of hearing his voice again was unbearable. It’s like playing with fire! One needs to take cover…
Can you imagine if you bumped into your LO? I think if I bumped into my LO, I’d faint!!!
Can’t explain these emotional feelings. No matter how much one tries.
Have a w fantastic weekend. Sis Nisor
John says
Hi Nisor,
Nice long hike with someone I haven’t seen since our running track days in high school.
Unlike my closest friends some of these people are ones who I’d say I was closer to her. This has had the unfortunate result of me continuing to think that I can see her once more just like getting together with old acquaintances. Of course the hard part is establishing communication with her.
Anyway, it’s wonderful you can dream about your LO in a positive way. I almost never remember dreams. I did not recall ever dreaming about her. Mostly I either daydream or fantasize right before going to bed or in the morning if I wake up before the alarm goes off. But these are conscious fabrications. As I’ve said never about reliving the past. I only do that when telling the story and I never change the past if I do think about. I’m sad to admit there are nights I hope I dont wake from the fantasy and just slip away from the world I know I’ll never see her again in.
My fantasies are almost exclusively just seeing her. A couple go beyond that into the land of ultimate fantasy where we are both open and available for various reasons. But mostly it’s just seeing her and we recognize each other and a conversation just starts. I don’t think I usually fantasize beyond that because if the impossible does happen again I don’t want to be disappointed. I just want to see her.
I’ve long stopped believing that this is some kind of master plan. If it was finding her and having it end as it did would be beyond cruel and I can’t associate that with the supposed God that I was brought up to believe in. And I’ve studied that a lot even teaching a religion class as a Senior in High School and at one point considering the priesthood if you can imagine that. Now I just chalk it up ti extreme luck that i found her. She was way out of my league and it is only because of my extreme efforts I spent anytime with her at all.
Have a super rest of the weekend.
John
Nisor says
Good morning John,
Here’s the poem I promised I would send you.
SEASONS
the evenings beneath the stairs/ are all gone now/
beneath the stairs, where he would stir between my arms like the weeds where our driveway smiles/scattered pieces of colored glass where the songs of that spring.
the sky was blue for us
and the grass opened up and swallowed us.
we sat on a rainbow with our arms about each other
and laughed down on this ugly town
that called itself my mother
it rained music
and even the gutters were pretty
but winter crept back to me
on silent knees
long before I was ready
and the puddles grew mirrors
that called me a fool
just for believing in him
and the ground seemed hollow
and the naked trees whispered
it’s funeral time again
the evenings beneath the stairs
are all gone now
and the spring of last year
huddles, frost bitten in the cellar
and the believing that I could call something mine
that never was at all
stands in the shadows
like all the other ghosts.
By Laura Burges, age 26
Pleasant Hill, California
Pleasant Hill High School
The poem is written in a different manner of course, cannot make justice to it by typing it differently here.
Have a nice rest after that hiking!
Nisor says
Correction:
scattered pieces of colored glass
were the songs of that spring.
WERE not where
John says
Hi Nisor,
Thanks, a bit tough to read that way but I got it after a bit. Appreciate it.
Yeah it was a good hike to a secret cave. My buddy talked the entire time so it helped keep my mind off things.
Couldn’t walk this morning very well. Hurt my knee. Drove 8 hours today to visit a college with SO and daughter. Long drives being back big memories. Hard to believe after driving 8 hours I would have had another 7 to go to see her. I was a man possessed. I could have driven another 7 today if she was at the end of it. I’ve still got it 🙂
Have a great week,
Bro
Nisor says
Hi John,
I thought so, you’d be done after a whole day of hiking. Specially if you don’t do it often; and a hurt knee, what do you expect . Gee, and to have to drive eight hours is not an easy feat. Oh, yes, it would have been wonderful if LO was the prize to do seven more hours! You got the resilience to be able to do it! What can’t we do for LO?
It’s really nice you could spend time with your old friend, many stories to share, I hope you enjoyed it.
Me and SO have a trip due to NY but I have been hesitant, I have to see family there and take care of some business; I will be so close to LO and not being able to get to see him ? How’s that? My heart shrinks with pain at the thought of it! In back of my mind I’m thinking of ways to make it happen, but with SO together, it would be impossible. Will only stay three days , then we’ll travel somewhere else. I’m not really looking forward to it, for I think my mind will betray me there and make me very anxious and grumpy. I’ve traveled to NY so many times since I left the states, every year , while the children were young , and never thought of LO, visited places we have walked together but he did not crossed my mind not even once! It’s after that stupid dream two years ago that brought me limerence for him which now makes me very apprehensive to go to NY. I’ll have to make a great effort to pack my suitcases. I pray to God, when the time comes to give me the strength and courage to go.
Rest your knee, maybe applying an ice pack will alleviate it.
Keep yourself healthy and enjoy the little things which gives us pleasure and are for free, like nature. Have a wonderful blessed week .💪🏽
John says
Hi Nisor,
No rest for the knee today. Walking tour of Penn State University. Very busy day but the knee is much better.
I don’t imagine you’ll be able to see your LO up in Maine being in New York. Ah, how we dream though. I’m sure I’ll never give up my dream of seeing her again.
Busy day.
Have a super night,
Bro
Nisor says
Hi John,
I’m sorry you didn’t get a chance to rest after your hiking. I guess it’s that time in life where things take a turn , as children leave the nest for university studies. My son came back home after leaving, but my daughter never came back to stay for even a while. She found her love bird and started a new life for themselves. Though she came back many, many times, I knew it was temporary, she was just being “lent” to me to enjoy her just for a little while. We have to prepare our minds to be able to confront all these continuous changes. It’s hard, but one gets used to all things and adapt. Amazing how the mind responds to all these changes. We always bounce back, we are resilient beings.
Not a good day today, I’m low and sad, very sensitive and sentimental. The thought of the trip has put me to meditate a lot about a lot of things.
I’m afraid of the past that has come to confront my independent life now. I m afraid , as I see the city again , my nights would be crowded with memories that would imprison my dreams, and make my stay there horrible.
It seems I’ve been fleeing all this time, but sooner or later, the time comes where you have to confront your past, stop running away…
I left when youth was in complete bloom…
Now coming back with my soul withered and the marks of time shinning on my temples, is not an easy undertaking, it’s a whole life rolling in front of me! Now, understanding life is only a murmur, a whisper that passes so quickly, almost unnoticeable. My eyes already dimmed now will be trying to find LO in the shadows, my soul searching for him on those streets and calling his name…
Yes , it will be hard seeing again that NY landscape , that city, creator of all kind of dreams , and my stubborn mind still holding to a sweet , sweet memory which cries for LO again…
Have to draw strength from inner deposits of my wells of trusting God , and living a purposeful life all these years to conquer my weaknesses, that have overcome me for two years now.
I’m a survivor, and God has helped me before, He will not leave me nor forsake me now! He is my strength and my fortress, in Him I trust! I’m not walking alone through this valley of sadness, for He’s my joy!
Sorry if I sound too down, when you yourself need lifting up emotionally. Let’s lift each other up, limerent bro. Common sense will prevail!!!
Have a wonderful day. Hugs.
John says
Hi Nisor,
Sorry to hear you are down. I understand how you feel and get that it is extremely difficult for you.
My knee is fine and we’ll be heading home today. Sound familiar? Long drive, stay a day, long drive. My SO thinks it’s crazy how comfortable I am with my daughter going to school 7 hours away. I keep telling her it’s an easy drive for me to get her home on holidays 🙂
Back to visiting familiar places. About 25 years ago I had a job where I was traveling extensively to Tennessee. It was about 8 years since I’d seen her. Probably the height of my worst longing for her. I was just outside on Memphis. I traveled every week for 4 months straight. Every Monday I would go to a client in Ohio, work 2 days, hop on a flight to Nashville work until Friday and come home. It was exhausting. About midway through, I had to visit a manufacturer in Austin Texas. So hitting Tennessee and Texas was brutal but I made it so much worse. One night I drove to Houston, drove to her old house and the club she worked at when I found her. I spent about 4 hours there. Then drove back to Austin. It was about a 3 hr drive each way so I got back at 5 am and headed to work at 8. Luckily I was so tired that the emotions of the night before weren’t obvious. The funny thing is I knew she was most likely living 1 town over. I was so tempted but luckily I didn’t. All I can say is that I survived it. I was alone and you won’t be. I went for no other reason than her memory. You won’t be.
I feel like a hypocrite saying this but like your advice to me focus on the present. Enjoy the memories. Make new ones.
Trust God if it works for you. It’s not something I can personally do. Try to enjoy your trip. Will common sense prevail for us? Well, since I’m a nut job and I’ve yet to be able to apply it to her I’m not too hopeful that after almost 33 years since I’ve seen her, that common sense will come to my rescue. I do hope it comes to yours and soon!!!
Good luck and I hope you feel better!
Your bro!
John says
Hi Nisor,
Just making this easier to find
Nisor says
Hi John
I haven’t forgotten you. Busy, busy.
All fine here. And you?
Have a great evening. 💪🏽
John says
Hi Nisor,
Busy sounds good. You seemed down on your last long post so I wanted to make sure you knew I responded as you’ve been so supportive.
Sounds like you are doing better.
Things are fine here.
John
Nisor says
Hi limerent bro. How are you today?
This traveling to your daughter’s university has brought you memories of your traveling days for LO. You’re used to driving the distance…
Wow, what a shocker working so close to where LO worked in Memphis! And just eight yeas ever since you saw her last! But what gets me is you doing three hours each back and forth from Austin to Houston just to see where she had lived and where she worked!!! That must have been absolutely very emotional! Tears rolling down your cheeks, raw feelings! Just like inserting a cutting object in a bleeding wound…
Too bad , she was not there. I’m surprised, with your tenacity, you were not tempted to go to the other town. Was it because of lack of time? You had to go to work the next day. And at the wee hours… my heart goes out to you!!! This woman has a spell on you, no question about it!
Nisor says
Hi John,
something happened to the text it was cut in half!
I just wanted to say that today I’m serene and in charge of my emotions. Tuesday I cried all day. It was my SO told me to pick a date sometime in May for the trip, and I wasn’t ready. But he said yesterday it doesn’t have to be may or if I don’t want to go that it is fine.
There was a long time I didn’t cry over LO, but last night my mood shifted to anger towards LO. I don’t know why, but LO equals pain. I have to see him as a cause of pain from now on. Anger is a stage of grief . I didn’t grieve or mourn the breakup with LO back then . It seems the mind keeps scores… let’s see what’s next. As Oscar Wilde said, “man always kill what they love the most.” I have to kill this monster. I’d like to keep the memories but I don’t want them assaulting me as a thief in the middle of the night. Memories are supposed to bring happiness not hurt… I don’t like being hurt.
You stay strong, alert and courageous. Limerent sis.
Serial Limerent says
Sometimes tears are necessary so you can move on. Sounds like some anger is justified because of his jealousy. If you’d stayed with him, some years after marrying him, you may very well have needed the help of friends (if any were left) to escape him in the middle of the night. I think you dodged a bullet.
Nisor says
Hi Serial Limerent,
Your words are wise!
The tears do help release tension and discomfort, besides giving a good feeling of relief. And anger is a good sign, up one step on the stages of grief.
That I dodged a bullet, I have thought of it many times myself! I’d have no friends, no family and a great insecurity and perhaps a complex of something…
I have a very good, lovable SO, he’s the total opposite of LO. Can you imagine? I feel comfortable and at ease with him, I’m myself! It’s this limerence that came to upset my peaceful life that’s making me yearn for LO. I had forgotten all about him before. Not even once! It’s all so incredible!
You stay put and careful with those gorgeous men out there. Since you say you’re a real serial Limerent. That would be devastating to me!!! One is more than enough!
I’m sharing hugs with my friends at LwL. Hugs and best wishes.
Serial Limerent says
Yeah, hugs to you, too! 🙂
John says
Hi Nisor,
I recall be very excited driving back into Houston, pulling into the parking lot. Reliving the excitement of finding her. I didn’t expect her to still be working there. I think I would have been in shock. No tears, I don’t really cry now. Haven’t in a long time. I’m sure that elevated my limerence at the time. I didn’t have her address, just some info that she lived in a town outside of Houston. I knew the town but it would have been inappropriate to show up at 10pm in the middle of the week. A spell indeed, I wish I could have half of what I felt for her to give to the relationships that followed but I used it all up.
I’m glad you are feeling better. I think it’s good if you feel some anger. Once again the hypocrite, your LO did things to cause you pain. I wish I could transfer some of my anger to mine. Your post about the silent treatment got me searching on ghosting and the silent treatment. It’s considered ghosting if there is no response after 2 days. Wow, got that covered:-). One post referred to it as a form of mental cruelty. It was a hard blog to read but it was all accurate. I think it listed most of the reasons as things I have considered which made me feel better until I got to the reason that you never meant anything. The one I fear the most because it hurts the most. I stopped reading there.
I hope you continue to feel better.
John
Nisor says
Hi John ,
“ A spell indeed. I wish I could have half of what I felt for her to give to other relationships that followed but I used it all up.”
I think this first experience of loving so intensely only happens once in a lifetime time. But I also believe that if the right person showed up , one can love again with the same intensity but, but, but with more caution, hey, a lot of caution! One has to put up the shields. And every love one has is different, maybe more mature, healthier… I thought myself nobody could match LO, he was the “pan” to me, unique. But, after I was going out with my SO, I met this fellow, who was a salesman, and came to my office for business, we both got the glimmer and he asked me out for dinner. I did go out with him, and I assure you that for
a moment I felt swayed away the same way I was with LO. It was a pleasant evening with him, very pleasant. But I didn’t proceed because he was “separated “ from his wife, said she was a brat. And that’s a no, no for me, that is: to go out with married or separated men. I didn’t know he was married. When he told me I knew it was over before it started. I was surprised catching myself interested in another man again after the experience with LO. I’m sure I liked him a lot and could have been a great candidate to get rid of LO altogether. It was not meant to be.
About the post and ghosting, yes it’s mental cruelty, it seems. And you stopped reading the post when you got to the part you fear the most, “that you never meant anything”, I got you! I happened to me also last night! I was listening to a video titled : “Are you being used: 16 ways to recognize if someone is using you”, mind over body; oh, I got to a part where it made me doubt if LO was using me? I got dizzy and sick to my stomach !!! I wanted to copy that part on my note book so I can re-read and swallow it if that was a possibility, but I could not get it all down on paper. It was overbearing. And the thought came to me he once at the lady’s mints if the relationship, asked me “if I thought he was using me.”!!! I nodded, because I didn’t think he was using me, or I using him. We were in love. I never doubted that. But last night it occurred to me, I should have asked why was he saying that? No, I never questioned his behavior towards me. But now I wonder…it could be he was a manipulative person and me
so ignorant? Yet his last words were he loved me, which never before he had said it. And 49 years later he said I was not patient , that if I had waited a little longer our lives would have been different now…
Anyway, what difference does it make now? I just wish and hope I can put this episode of my life away for good. I want back my peace!
Have a great evening and stay strong. Good things come to those who wait..
Your L sis
Nisor says
Correction: where it says at lady’s mints, should read: at latter months of the relationship he asked me: “do you think I’m using you”?
John says
Hi Nisor,
I waited a long time to feel that excitement or even a fraction of it. I dated only one girl before my wife for any period of time in that 14 years between the last time I saw her and when I got married. That was a girl I dated for 9 months. It’s not that I didn’t go out on dates, that spark just wasn’t there.
I finally got married but not because I was crazy in love or anything. I wonder how I’d feel if I saw her now. Would my heart race and body tremble like before letting me know that part of me is still alive. I’ll never know.
What I do know is I’m married now, not lonely but no super excited. Probably why I still do things that are a little crazy who knows.
The one difference is you have 49 years without this feeling. It’s all I’ve known since I was 20 so you at least know what peace is like. For me the only thing is to see her once more or even chat. Something which you were also able to do. I really do hope you find your way past this.
Good luck, have a wonderful evening.
Bro
Nisor says
John,
I think if you get to see her or even chat with her, you’ll still tremble, stutter, your heart w be trotting like a wild horse, words won’t come out of your mouth and all that mess one once felt when one was young and having the first flirt will happen again . It all comes alive , unless boys are wired different than girls. That’s the way it felt when I talked to LO, after 49 years! And I was never like that with him, not even once. It was all so simple for the two of us, except his jealousy attacks at the beginning of the relationship. Once he kept me rolling the way he wanted, he calmed down.
You have to find her telephone number and call. She was kind to you, what’s wrong w giving her a call, just to swap stories? Something casual, as friends.When I called LO I was not expecting anything from him, I just needed to talk to him. I thought I could be friends with him but soon I realized all those emotions came back, no, no way I could talk to him as a friend. Besides he started remembering the past and making me uncomfortable with his niceties . It became very painful and I just couldn’t talk anymore, I became weak, he was handling the conversation …
I don’t know if you would be able to control your emotions with her. You know yourself if you’re capable.
It’s true I had 49 years of calm and peace without this feeling I feel since two years ago. It was dynamite compounded all in one shot!
You have been living with this feelings ever since, it’s very, very extensive punishment for your soul and mind. If I get to find your LO I’ll pull all her hair off for making you go through this ordeal. Mainly because she didn’t let you say goodbye and saying what she said which gave you hope. What did she say? Don’t have to be goodbye you’ll never know what could happen, or something like that? So there’s your free ticket to make that phone call or text…? I don’t know if this is correct, what I’m saying to you to do. I don’t want to be an enabler and if things don’t go your way, I’ll feel so guilty and ashamed of myself for being an instigator. And don’t want you to be hurt anymore than you’re now. Don’t listen to me. Do as you think is correct and less painful to you.
We need a magic wand to test the waters first…
Take it away bro.
John says
Hi Nisor,
You laid it right out there. And yes, you remembered exactly what she said. Please, if you do bump into her, just let her know I never stopped caring for her as a person regardless of how things ended. No need to pull her beautiful hair out.
As for reaching out to her, this is my catch 22. If I reach out to her, that would be the second time I had to find her. My biggest fear is how she might feel about me now looking back even though she didn’t mind then. If she thinks I’m a creep for what I did now I would only prove her right if I reached out. If I don’t reach out I’ll never see her again and never know. Damned if I do, damned if I don’t. That’s been my riddle for 33 years this August. The goodbye may have solved it or allowed me to move on in my terms but without a Time Machine that’s not relevant.
The upside to my situation over years is there was no disruption, no pow, no sudden injury. Just the old wound that changes with the seasons.
But at least I have someone who understands.
Thanks,
John
John says
Correction, the upside of my situation over yours not years
Nisor says
Good morning John,
If I bump into your LO, I for sure will tell her how much space she has occupied in your head. Some rent due… what about a call to my dear friend John? Huh!
I promise I won’t pull her beautiful hair out. Maybe she has a short hair cut now and it will be hard to pull out her hair. Nah, I’d just take a picture and send it to you.
The reaching out enigma is really a catch 22 for you. But that’s because you care too much of how you want her to remember you.
I was terrified and excited at the same time when I was thinking of calling LO. I didn’t know how the outcome would be, but if I didn’t make the phone call , my head and heart would have exploded!!! So , there you go, my selfishness, my well being was a priority , I guess I would’ve gone insane if I didn’t call. So it was : me going insane, or taking a rejection from him? I was prepared for a rejection, with the understanding that so many years has gone by, that he was healed from our love affair. I even thought he may not remember me at all. Or be rude and hang up, etc. but none of that could have stopped me. I was prepared for any outcome. It took me five months holding onto that telephone in my possession and making the phone call at last. It went well but if it has not, still I got that pressure out of my head!!! It was worthwhile.
You prefer to keep the wound that changes with seasons, rather than lose your honor. I understand the uncertainty that cripples your decision to call. Yikes, this limerence thing sucks!
Strength and courage as always. Bear hug.🫂
John says
Hi Nisor,
At least from her recent profile her hair is still quite beautiful though not as epic as her late 80s style. As are her eyes.
Can’t say that I consider it keeping my honor to not call her. Regardless of how she may or may not have felt years ago, at most for her I’m a memory and there is nothing there now if there ever was. I’m just a fool who’s held on for way too long hoping for some miracle to get answers to questions where the answers may not even exist. But that’s me. I’m sure it’s largely because I’ve never found something to replace it. No girl I’ve met could live up to that fantasy once I’d experienced it. Nor would I allow it to be replaced. I’m just a crazy person hanging onto the past.
I’m really glad you were in a position you could reach out. I agree that how she felt about me is something I feel is important. Too important indeed. But it’s more than that. It’s that crazy stunt I pulled. That’s what keeps me from following through. Oh well. It’s another day.
Tomorrow we have a service for my sisters best friend from school, only 52. That should put things in perspective but as these things happen more, the fear and realization that I’ll never see my LO becomes more real.
Have a great rest of the weekend.
John
Nisor says
Hi John,
…the fear and realization that I’ll never see my LO becomes more real.”
Ouch, that hit home!
It’s incredible how almost everything relates and reminds us of our LOs! Just being at that service brought you those triggering feelings!
Life sometimes seems to pass slow, other times quickly. When I get enmeshed with LO thoughts and the sure impossibility of never being able to see LO again , I want life to pass on real fast for me. I embrace leaving this world without seeing LO again, and it’s very sad but it’s a reality I must face. That’s why last Tuesday I was so sad, over thinking of me crossing the Atlantic and being closer to LO’s place and yet not a possibility to see him for the last time. That would be the closest I’d ever be to LO in the future. For I’m almost sure this would be my last trip to NY, if it materialized. I might bypass NY altogether and go straight to my final destination. And, one might say, why a trip can trigger this fear? Because everything is connected with LO… because our minds cannot find solace and reconciliation with these inexplicable emotions towards one particular person, and the thought of not ever seeing them again is so sad, so somber, so overpowering! You feel the helplessness, the loss of a dream, the end of your life… you know you’re merely surviving and on an autopilot.
Yet , we have loved ones around us who need our love and care, and that keeps us moving…. LO’s last words to me on our last conversation were: “ we have to be grateful for what we have.” I took it to mean that he’s grateful and happy with his lot, and I should be grateful with mine. ( Don’t ask for more, it won’t happen.)Then I said goodbye and that’s that. Always remember: ACCEPTANCE is the key word. No need to look for the cat’s fifth leg…
Have a fantastic weekend. Hugs from L sis.
frederico says
Somehow the image of you secretly indulging yourself with a bowl of “lady’s mints” made me smile, Nisor. “OK then, just one more mint. I shouldn’t really.”
Nisor says
Hi Frederico,
How are you doing with the NC?
One more mint! Yes, what the heck.
My phone is playing games on me, time for a new one. Sometimes the writings disappear right in front of my eyes if the message is too long.
frederico says
Ah, yes, the trials of technology, Nisor!
It’s kind of you to ask about my NC and I feel quite humbled that you would remember. I’m still at it and I’m grasping at every vestige resolve that I can muster.
Deep down, I still love my exceptional LO but even a friendship is impossible, it seems, and I am now quite angry with him for ghosting me. I have read your exchanges with John about ghosting. It’s a relatively new, but very descriptive term, ghosting, and I think it is one of the most cruel things that, emotionally, one person can that inflict on another. I don’t think that pain and hurt is intended, most of the time, it just happens.
I’m not entirely sure how long I’ll be around on LwL but I don’t find it triggering to read the posts and I think that I may be slightly addicted.
I follow what you write, even if I scan through here and there. I sincerely wish you well with your bewildering experiences.
f
Nisor says
Hi
Frederico
I’m with you in this affliction of NC. It doesn’t seem that time helps much. It may alleviate sometimes when one is busy , but when the mind is idle it keeps nudging you to LO. Our reasoning may be to move on and forgive and forget but the limerent brain knows very well what it wants: it wants LO, ha. For us, elder people, is difficult because we , most of us, don’t work anymore, and have not many alternatives to
a future to look forward to; really no great dreams, let’s not fool ourselves… if I was young, I’d be changing jobs, going to parties, being where I can meet new people, etc, trying to fill up my time with new adventures , etc, and pleasure ! There’s a time for everything, why limerence had to choose us at this age ? To torture us? The only lesson I get from it is to be more humble and to go out and help people who are in need physically or spiritually. Those things give us pleasure, to see a smile of a person who has received some kind of help, it’s rewarding!
The ghosting, this is cruel, but as you said , most people don’t do it knowingly. They are oblivious of the pain or suffering they can do to others with their attitude. It’s either ignorance of good habits , or indifference to the feelings of others, they move on with their daily lives without thinking of others, it could be cowardice. Some people are afraid to show or communicate their feelings. It could be many, many things. What we have to do is pick up the pieces and try hard to move on with our lives independently of others. This is where the theory of attachment comes to my mind.
And the searching for whys , the childhood traumas etc. …My mind is everywhere! This limerence episode is my first ever, and has sent me looking for answers to my questions… it’s fantastic awareness I needed when younger, but when one is young you are oblivious to all these questions.
Life unfairness?
I wish and hope you find your peace in regard to LO, and that a magnificent person will show up for you, somewhere, somehow. Never lose your hopes!!!
A bear hug for you.
Adam says
Frederico
From this day forward I am calling Junior Mints “lady mints” as that is the first thing that came to mind reading Miss Nisor’s post. lol
Imho says
I thought the same Frederico. I have a tin of mints in my lady handbag at all times !
It’s good to have these funny little giggles amongst the angst !
@Nisor,
I have been reading some of your posts and see you have been struggling a bit recently and nice to see you and John are supporting each other.
I hope you take strength that you KNOW for sure :-
1) you were loved by LO at that special time in your earlier life
2) you are loved now by your SO and family at this special time in your life right now ( I hope I make correct assumption here ….?)
3) your new LwL community loves you.
Life is a journey, we are blessed to encounter some very special people along the way. Some will feature in our lives for maybe just a a few minutes and some for a lifetime, and everything in-between.
Best wishes!!
Adam says
Imho
I like that last paragraph about life being a journey. The first gal I ever loved (possibly limerent for) chose someone else as a suitor despite knowing how I felt about her and that sent me into an alcoholic spiral. My best friend told me “the people in your life are either a blessing or a lesson”. She was my first lesson. Limerence is a lesson. But I wanted them both to be a blessing and tried too hard. Hopefully two lessons is enough for me to learn finally.
Nisor says
Hi Imho,
Thanks for your nice post.
Yep, life is a journey, I have traveled far, ha! I have been blessed and have met wonderful, wonderful people, special people along the way. And I remember them fondly. And I’m aware that to everything there is a season and time for it’s purpose. I had LO in a past season and time, but he came revisiting, at a time , out of season ! I was living my life and minding my own business, puff ,LO came like a whirlwind and stroke me hard. I’m looking for cover!!!
It’s true I enjoyed being loved by LO, he taught me to love and to be loved by him. A most precious time of my life.
I’m also grateful for my SO’s love and family, which means the world to me. I’d change nothing about it, and want to protect it intact as I have always done .
And yes the LwL community is my refuge, where I can empty my true self and feelings. I know they love me and I love them all. For love is the most needed and wanted “commodity “ on these times of lack…
I wish you the best in your career, and whatever your wishes are for a future, with or without LO, ha. Hugs.
frederico says
Adam and Imho
A little round tin of dainty lady mints was probably kept in the glove compartment of the car next to the barley sugar. It takes me back to the 1950ies.
I wonder if there was perhaps a tin kept just below the conning tower of LE’s various submarines.
Imho says
Frederico, I can imagine you storing your leather string-back driving gloves next to your tin of barley sugars in the glove compartment of a classic open top car.
And you regularly play golf in the countryside ! Ha ha !
Imho says
Hi Adam, thanks for sharing. I do remember you previously described your 1st love. I think you met at church. a bitter sweet experience for you I’m sure.
Can we look at these experiences as both a blessing and also a lesson? (So both, and not either/or) Is that possible under your best friends rule?
I do feel my LE is/was amazing ( but also horrendous) and is trying to tell me something, so maybe it was both a blessing and a lesson to trigger me to help improve myself and live a better life.
Adam says
Imho, I thought about your post here through the night. This probably isn’t much context for you but in the video game I was playing last night (not the first time I have played it) I got to the part where the protagonist meets up with one of the characters that I like in the game a lot. She’s a take no one’s bs hard boiled gal. It made me think of your post again. In the end, even after the protagonist sends her off in an escape pod without going with her. He tells her that he needs to rescue her because he couldn’t rescue Nicole (his wife that died earlier). And I wonder why I like to replay this game so much.
I think she was a blessing in a way. While she was my first love, she taught me a lesson earlier on. About women, love, romance, etc. If I was limerent for her than it probably was a good thing it didn’t go on and on. I guess I was reading her wrong if he was the one she wanted not me. Ah well. What good is trying to figure out the past?
LO was my mistake thoroughly. Maybe the lesson is not every nice woman is more than that. I remember a conversation with Miss Lovisa and possibly Miss Marcia? … when I first started posting here. About how different men read women than women read men. A lot of us misread a lot of women’s words and body language. A laugh or a smile. An off the cuff touch. A thank you. Maybe you women are just as addictive as alcohol lol
And the blessing is that it seems to has doubled my resolve to appreciate my wife and the union that we have. She sat by me through all of this. After 25 years I can appreciate the stability and solidarity of what we have. We may not be hands on each other all the time teenagers. But just this morning she calmed me from a night terror that woke me up and held me till my alarm went off to come to work. She may not know I knew but I could feel the calm and safety being next to her. That’s dedication that I can’t fathom for what this limerence has done to test our marriage.
Maybe you are right Imho. Maybe they can both be a blessing and a lesson. Thanks for making me think.
Imho says
Hi Adam, I’m flattered that my post was thought provoking.
It’s funny as I’m so much seen as the competent one which is not a natural role, that sometimes I don’t want to be anymore and so I think my LE was triggered just like yours but in reverse. I wanted to be “rescued” (when I was at a low ebb) by this competent LO or maybe want to be more like them somehow.
On the misinterpretation thing, yes I think certain people just ooze warmth and charm ( not only women by the way ) that can be misread as special meaning or connection to us limerent prone types.
I’m sorry you had a night terror, not pleasant. I hope the gaming is not a trigger for such ? I find something I saw or read in the news that day can trigger bad dreams that night. So lovely that your wife knew instinctively that were suffering and helped you til morning. True partnership.
Wishing you only sweet dreams tonight Adam!
Grego says
Hi John,
I get your situation and the feelings that arise. I’m in a similar situation so I totally get it and can empathise with you.
Last night, which was Friday night, I was out with a friend, having some beers and in the back of my mind wishing she would materialize.
I haven’t seen her in a long time but the yearning to see her won’t fade away. I do not think I will see her.
My friend and I found a nice pub/bar and were enjoying catching up and drinking beer, though I couldn’t help thinking it would be better if she were here.
I’m not going to beat myself up or pile guilt on myself for having these thoughts/feelings. It is what it is.
May we find peace in our hearts and ways to move forward on our lives.