As I mentioned at the beginning of the year, I’m currently writing a book on limerence, and am now well past the halfway mark and generally happy with progress.
I’m working to an end of May deadline, and while I’d like to be a bit further ahead for my own comfort, I’m on course. But it does come with a cost. I’m currently doing three jobs, which is a bit silly. Four if you count parenting, which, you know, I certainly should.
I bring this up in the LwL Coffeehouse for a couple of reasons.
First, it’s possible that one of the commitments that may need to give way as deadlines tighten is the weekly blog post. I’ve kept an unbroken record for 7 years straight, and I’m reluctant to break the streak, but writing the blog and writing the book side by side is more challenging than I had expected. If it comes to a pinch point, I’m going to prioritise the book. I hope it won’t happen, but this is just a bit of a “managing expectations” post in case I have to skip a week.
The second, and much more constructive, reason for raising the topic is that when I finish the first draft I plan to review the whole book and identify ideas that I’ve overlooked.
Already, as I’ve been writing, I’ve been noting down some ideas or insights that I realise need to go in somewhere but haven’t found a place yet. My plan is to go back once I have a complete first draft and see where they would fit in. Some of these ideas have some hefty impact, so it would be a shame to miss them out.
In that spirit, for today’s topic of conversation in the Coffeehouse, I’d like to ask people to help with this process.
I have two specific questions:
- What’s the most useful nugget of wisdom you’ve discovered on LwL?
- What would you most like to learn about in the book?
All feedback appreciated, but, as ever, also feel completely free to fill up the comments with random ramblings!
Thanks All!
Hi Dr. L. Very glad your book on limerence is half-way done! Courage!
1) To answer your first question:
The most useful nugget of wisdom I discovered on LwL was the perfect description you give of the feelings I was having, of that “altered state of mind” that was driving me nuts without me knowing what it was or why it was happening. ( Still struggling with limerence).
2) What I most like to learn about in the book?
All about limerence! How to cope with it, how to handle grief after No Contact.
I suppose you want new readers of the book to know what you already have written on the blogs. Also, in the blogs , it mainly addresses people with SOs, but there’s a lot of young people without SOs that are struggling with limerence , ex. breakups and unrequited love, who search for information to relief their altered state of mind ; those would be interesting to know their perspective . It would be nice if they learned at an early age about limerence , to avoid so much suffering later on. That’s what many veteran limerents say, “if I only knew before “ about limerence… my two cents.
Best wishes on your book, and may you be able to finish on schedule. Have a nice weekend.
Dr. L, hi
Herewith, a Video on GRIEF by Neurologist Andrew HUBERMAN, from Stanford University; it’s a long one, but explains grief in a scientific way, and the researchers done on it.
The first eight minutes are advertisement, so skip it if you want. I know time is precious to you.
Have a wonderful fruitful day.
The name of the Video:
THE SCIENCE AND PROCESS OF HEALING FROM GRIEF, Andrew HUBERMAN .
Sorry I left it out in the original text.
Hello,
I get this – my SO is currently writing a book, at the same time as working a full time job and parenting. Best of luck juggling all that!
1) It’s very hard to drill this down to just one point. Probably the most important thing I have gained from the blog is that it is ok to feel like this about LO but simultaneously not to want to jeopardise my own marriage, or LO’s. I have had a lot of trouble reconciling those two feelings and it has been easier for me to choose not to act on the latter, once I was able to acknowledge that both are valid.
Maybe a second helpful point is the regular reassurance that it is very likely all in my head, despite whatever signs I try to convince myself LO has given me. It might be reciprocated, but even if it is, we have both chosen not to act on it.
Although I have been limerent twice in the past, this is the first time it has happened whilst I have been married and the first time my LO has been married. It look me by surprise at this stage in my life and using various blog posts to analyse why it is happening is helpful. This has led to me taking on a voluntary role (away from LO) which I probably would not have otherwise considered.
2) Coping strategies – both scientific theory and practical applications.
I’m also interested in whether you think there is a link between neurodiversity, specifically ADHD, and limerence. I’m hoping for something on that in a future blog post, not necessarily the book.
I like your writing style and the pictures keep the tone light. I will miss the blog if you decide to stop, but I also have a hunch that reading about limerence on a weekly basis is not helping me to move on.
“Probably the most important thing I have gained from the blog is that it is ok to feel like this about LO but simultaneously not to want to jeopardise my own marriage, or LO’s. I have had a lot of trouble reconciling those two feelings and it has been easier for me to choose not to act on the latter, once I was able to acknowledge that both are valid.”
I love this and completely agree! So well put… resolving the cognitive dissonance of married limerence with self-compassion, rather then by re-writing history.
I also think Onyx’s post is spot on for me too, very well written ! Thank you.
The term cognitive dissonance has been on my mind quite a bit recently, so Allie it’s funny you used it in your message !
I will have to have a think about Dr Ls questions posed to us…..🤔
+1 on Onyx’s post – same for me down to the marital situation and surprise that came with it. But a first for me. And yes: (part answer to 1 and 2) Being able to recognize this as a “oh, it’s not just me!” and realizing that, as much as it hurts like I never expected to experience outside a bad breakup or the loss of a family member, the need to let go, and “brace for impact” wen everything else in your gut is telling you that you can’t let this person go at any cost. It’s devastating, and I’m not out of the woods yet – but knowing you’re not alone goes a long way to knowing the way out, even when you don’t want to.
Definitely also interested in the connection between limerence and ADHD / neurodivergence. Personal experience of both and they seem to intertwine… A tip for Onyx, if you have ADHD: watch out for hyperfocusing on limerence content, it could become the new addiction! 😅
Bubbles – yes, that has occurred to me!
It’s possible I have ADHD but I don’t think a diagnosis would be particularly helpful for me, at this point in my life, so it’s not something I am planning to burden the already overworked healthcare system with.
LO, however, does have a diagnosis.
The best thing for me about the blog and the book was the relief of finally having a name to this thing that has been a part of me all my life. The relief of knowing that limerence is not falling in love with my soulmate, nor some kind of spiritual attack from the enemy. It’s a chemical imbalance basically triggered from certain men that I perceive to be ideal in my mind.
The second best part of LwL is having others that can relate. I do not believe I have met another person in real life who truly understands what I experience, even if I try to explain it. Having the blog and the first book to give understanding and to guide me through the reality of limerence has been a great weight off my mind and shoulders.
The most useful nugget I have used is preventing any further limerence events by choosing to be low contact/no contact with men whom I perceive to possess my personal triggers. I feel I have successfully dodged a third potential limerence experience that was trying to start while I was reading the first book. Since it was just at the “glimmer” stage it was easier to fight it off than any full-blown limerent experience I had before.
I now enjoy a normal friendship/coworker-relationship because of the tools in the book and the LwL site. And I hope to prevent any further limerent experiences while married.
What would I like to read about in particular? That, I cannot say. Anything Dr. L writes is intelligent, witty and humorous, so I am sure whatever he comes up with will be a delight, and I look forward to it. 💙
“ The relief of knowing that limerence is not falling in love with my soulmate, nor some kind of spiritual attack from the enemy. It’s a chemical imbalance basically triggered from certain men that I perceive to be ideal in my mind.”
I second this! I’m so glad that a brain scientist created a website about limerence instead of a philosopher!
DrL,
1. The most useful nugget? For me LwL, when viewed from the perspectives of neuroscience and Attachment Theory, limerence explained my behavior patterns. Limerence dovetails with so many facets. My life makes sense. Put everything together and how things played out could have been predictable.
2. I guess since I’m pretty well on the far side of limerence, there’s nothing I particularly want to see.
I’m curious as to the scope of thr book. LwL covers a lot of ground. Posters on LwL fall into a whole bunch of groups,
– Limerents
– SOs of Limerents
– Attached Limerents
– Unattached Limerents
– Limerents who want to get out of limerence
– Limerence who want to become comfortable in their current pathology
– Limerents in early, middle, late limerence
I’m sure I missed a few. Then there are the neuroscience and psychological aspects.
LO #4 used one of the blogs I sent her as a basis for a chapter in her book. With respect to that topic, LO is the closest thing I will ever have to a protégé.
1. What’s the most useful nugget of wisdom you’ve discovered on LwL?
The most useful nugget of wisdom that I learned on LwL is that INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS are caused by DAYDREAMING about LO.
A second useful nugget is that UNCERTAINTY creates obsessive behavior. I’m using this principle to train my guinea pigs to come when I call them. Sometimes I reward them with a tasty treat and sometimes I just pet their backs. Thanks for teaching me about uncertainty. I am also quick to respond to correspondence from my male friends because I don’t want to create uncertainty in them.
Thank you for pointing out that some limerents use LO daydreams for MOOD REGULATION and ESCAPE because it helped me to understand what I was doing. I also found alternative ways to regulate myself and escape.
TRANSFERENCE eliminated my intrusive thoughts so thank you for telling me about transference.
What would you most like to learn about in the book?
I would like clear definitions of the following
Limerence (consider addressing that the obsessive thinking isn’t always sexual and some people become limerent for an LO who would not be a potential mate)
Emotional affair (the definition varies)
I think HEALING HAPPENS IN COMMUNITY. I think the LwL community was necessary for my healing because I wouldn’t have talked as openly about my limerence if I didn’t have anonymity. I don’t know if I could have healed from limerence without this community. I don’t know how to advise a limerent to talk to someone because it can create other problems for the limerent, but I think there is wisdom in not walking this path alone.
THANK YOU, DR L!!!
“The most useful nugget of wisdom that I learned on LwL is that INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS are caused by DAYDREAMING about LO.”
Well, that’s interesting and it will make me more aware. Of course, after four years I shouldn’t still be at that stage. Intrusive thoughts about LO grab me and knock me around first thing in the morning. Thank goodness for the radio.
The lovely guinea pig story, out of nowhere, made me smile.
lol, thanks Frederico.
I got rid of my intrusive thoughts about LO2 by transferring to LO3 and I made a conscious effort not to daydream about LO3. It mostly worked. Whew! The intrusive thoughts are the worst. Watch this video if you haven’t seen it.
How to Deal with Intrusive Thoughts
by Mark Freeman
https://youtu.be/laeYq51SYA0
Have a great day, Frederico!
Will do x
I agree with wanting a clear definition for an EA. I’ve seen it all over the place. Also, there should be a third category. You hear “emotional affair” and “physical affair,” which includes sexual–but what about the in-between where there is no sex but there is hugging, kissing, etc.? The dynamics are different in each case, and I find it very frustrating, especially when googling questions. I suggest EA, PA (for physical without sex) *and* SA.
I like your suggestion.
Hi Serial limerent,
Hugging and kissing is sexual as defined by Esther Perel and other sexologists. Even touching, talking , in a certain way is sexual. Sexual is not only limited to the act of penetration. There’s a lot of sexuality in foreplay before the climax/consummation in a relationship. Perhaps, that’s why Google cannot address your question?
Have a wonderful week.
There’s probably a few factors that determine whether a type of touching is considered sexual or not, and it’s going to vary from couple to couple.
For me, I consider hugging to be part of an emotional affair, because:
1) I hug lots of people
2) I’m comfortable hugging other people in front of my SO
3) My SO has no problem with me hugging other people
On the other hand, I believe that kissing my LO would cross the line into physical affair because:
1) I don’t kiss anyone except my SO
2) I wouldn’t ever kiss another person in front of my SO
3) My SO would not be ok with me kissing other people under any circumstances
I think most of us also know what we’re getting from any type of physical contact. Is it primarily emotional connection, or is it sexual gratification? On the occasions when I do hug my LO, I can honestly say it feels much more like an emotional act rather than a sexual act – I think we both feel reassured and safe and cared for and connected, but it doesn’t feel sexual. A kiss on the other hand seems like it would be clearly sexual and would almost inevitably lead to more sexual activity.
I’ve also always strictly avoided the temptation to rub LO’s shoulders when she’s feeling stressed and worn out. Even though in isolation that would generally be considered a non-sexual type of touching, I think it would be too dangerous for us, because it would get us too comfortable with more prolonged physical contact than just a few second hug, and I’d see it as a likely gateway into a sexual affair.
Lost in Space,
“I hug lots of people”
Is a hug or is it a HUG?
I think anytime the pelivses are touching … it’s getting sexual.
You can sometimes watch two people who seem to be on a date and are greeting each other and tell if they’re into each other just by the way they hug.
Body language gives it away.
Any sort of touching can lead to arousal. Once it becomes arousal, it is PA.
MJ,
“Any sort of touching can lead to arousal. Once it becomes arousal, it is PA.”
Everyone is looking for a way to bend the rules as far as possible. 🙂
Hugs I think are a no go. But than my wife is pretty much the only woman I hug, say besides my mother. Never been much of a huger so any hugging by me of another woman would be greatly suspect as to my motives.
My understanding of “sexual relations” is any contact with another person’s external reproductive organs with or without clothing.
I don’t think touching, snuggling or even kissing is sexual. I think it is intimate, but not sexual. Hugging is absolutely not sexual. Ewe! I hug many people everyday and it is definitely not sexual.
“I don’t think touching, snuggling or even kissing is sexual. I think it is intimate, but not sexual. Hugging is absolutely not sexual. Ewe! I hug many people everyday and it is definitely not sexual.”
I agree, but again I think it comes back to the level of which a person can be a attracted to another. Touching any part of another person can lead to thoughts of intimacy. I used to hug my Sister in Law all the time and while it may not have appeared to be outright sexual, and I really wasn’t trying to come on to her, “I” always felt a twinge of arousal being close to her like that, which increased my desire to do it all the more. Which became a very slippery slope and now I am single.
The level of arousal (If any) is the litmus test of attraction.
MJ,
“The level of arousal (If any) is the litmus test of attraction.”
Have you never touched/kissed/had sex with someone you weren’t all that attracted to because an opportunity was there? Does that mean the intention wasn’t sexual because the arousal wasn’t super high?
I would not want an SO kissing or snuggling up on another woman. We can argue whether it’s sexual or not or if it’s an affair.
But I think a good number of people would think both were crossing the line.
And kissing can be deeply sexual depending on what is involved/what happens.
My favorite writer Charles Bukowski wrote (I believe it was in his book Women) “I think kissing is more intimate that ****ing.” And I completely agree with him. Sexual intercourse is part of the survival of the species and while we like to fancy ourselves “beyond” our biological urges, we are not. Kissing another man or woman however is a deliberate and active choice.
Adam,
“Sexual intercourse is part of the survival of the species and while we like to fancy ourselves “beyond” our biological urges, we are not”
We fight our urges every day. If we didn’t, it’d be open Porkopolis.
But I agree with you about the kissing. It’s extremely intimate. It’s why a lot of sex workers won’t kiss but will do everything else.
“Does that mean the intention wasn’t sexual because the arousal wasn’t super high?”
@Marcia
Perhaps I should have worded it, “Can be a litmus test of attraction”
I was trying to consider myself in situations where I knew what my end-game was and usually I was attracted.. However, I have had my share of situations that were not all about attraction. It was about “getting off”. So yes it by all means becomes just sexual.
What I find attractive in a Woman, my buddy may not see or feel it the same. I think it’s when people start touching each other in any sort of way, is when excitement can erupt within and causes arousal. Which leads to etc, etc.. For myself, that often led to deeper attraction.
MJ,
“So yes it by all means becomes just sexual.”
I wasn’t clear. I don’t think we can use the barometer of someone being turned on or attracted to say the touching is sexual/romantic in nature.
MJ, I’m curious about how you’re using the word arousal. Can you tell me what you mean by “arousal?”
Thanks for explaining what could happen when you hugged your sister-in-law. I’ve suspected something like that with some men who solicit hugs from me. Ugh. Now I know. Time to rethink who I am willing to hug. Gosh darn it.
Hi Marcia,
“Everyone is looking to bend the rules as far as possible.”
You bet. But consciously we know why we’re doing it… we’re talking about hugging and kissing and touching a person we like, or the LO, not family or loved friends. It is said the skin is the largest sexual organ of a person. One knows when you do touch intentionally . It’s no sin to demonstrate your intimate feelings to a person you like, unless you’re doing it surreptitiously. One knows that if you’re married or partnered you have no business touching someone else or viceversa. Let’s not kid ourselves. We’re mature people and know better, unless one is so naive…
Good day to all.
Nisor,
“One knows that if you’re married or partnered you have no business touching someone else or viceversa. ”
I don’t believe that was universally agreed upon, no.
“MJ, I’m curious about how you’re using the word arousal. Can you tell me what you mean by “arousal?”
@Lovisa,
By arousal, I mean being turned on sexually. Like when a person is touching any part of another person that they are attracted to. A simple touch could spark arousal within them. While at the same time keeping it cool under the guise of being innocent and meaning nothing more.
Hugging my Sister in Law sparked arousal in me after awhile. When she was intoxicated, she had a habit of prolonging that hug. My mind turned to mush. I don’t need to mention what that led to next.
The Men that hug you may infact have no sexual intent or interest in you like that. But how will you ever truly know, unless they make it that obvious?
It may be time to rethink as you said.
“We fight our urges every day. If we didn’t, it’d be open Porkopolis.”
Nisor
Sure we do. Hopefully we do when it is the right thing to do. But “one night stands” and one off affairs happen for a reason. Sometimes we do give in to our throbbing biological urges. Kissing is a learned behavior and a choice we make to do with someone. Sex doesn’t always have to be intimate. (I know from trying to conceive our first son. There were times literally all she needed was my seed when she was fertile whether I had a 16 hour work day or not.) But it can be. Kissing is always intimate. And something I only practice with my wife.
Maybe this explains my earlier comment better.
MJ, hi
On the theme of arousal. When my LO was snooping on me way before we met, he had seen me kiss on the cheek the elevator old man, (it was a huge building with many elevators, and the old man, in formal uniform, guiding the people to the next available lift), I did it innocently and didn’t think much of it, that is an innocent kiss. But when finally LO got the courage to approach me, and we were by the fourth date, he mentioned it to me. He said he had seen me kiss Charlie on the cheek, the elevator man, and that it was not right, because, even if I didn’t mean anything by it, it may mean something else to him and give him pleasure, and even talk about to others in a sneaky way. I understood it, and stopped doing it. Also he told me , men in the bathroom talked a lot of garbage to each other’s “trespassing“ , even if it were not true, about how they get a kick out of touching some workers in the office… he used the word “conniving “ to address them.
Also, my LO had observed me being given priority at the coffee shop by the manager, and he would sit with me at the table, and LO brought it to my attention, that it would give him a chance to boast at how he may have something going on with me, when in reality it was not. LO was very strict and had a keen eye to read in between lines… He trusted no man, only his brother could get close to me.
Also my SO, can tell if someone is acting phony with a woman , or viceversa , when we go out. It’s a well known secret among men.
Have a good day.
“One knows that if you’re married or partnered you have no business touching someone else or viceversa.”
Nisor
Physical touch is my love language and a powerful thing to me. I can tell the difference between my wife grabbing me squeezing behind me in the kitchen to get by me and when she is affectionately touching me for her own 😉 agenda. Touch is not something I hand out like candy to others. Outside of a handshake I wouldn’t ever think of touching another woman. To me, it is a clear boundary crossed that just goes downhill from there. So I totally agree with you.
“Time to rethink who I am willing to hug. Gosh darn it.”
Miss Lovisa
I wouldn’t take the opposite road from what you are comfortable with. There’s a male member of my wife’s family that gives out unsolicited hugs, no matter gender and it’s really weird to me. I wouldn’t say any man that hugs you has ulterior motives, it is just not something I do. I think that there is a huge difference in you initiating hugs with men than them initiating with you. You are setting the standard for hugs not them. So if they get some by product feeling from you hugging them that’s on them not you. But vice versa that’s a different story as they are seeking out that by product by hugging you.
Marcia wrote “Lost in Space,
“I hug lots of people”
Is a hug or is it a HUG?”
I totally agree there are hugs and there are HUGS… I do hug lots of people, it’s how I say hello and goodbye with family and a lot of my friends (both male and female). I hug other athletes after a good competition. I hug coworkers when they’re having a rough day. I occasionally hug my patients when they need emotional healing. Those are all non-sexual types of hugs for me.
My hugs with SO are sometimes of the familial type but other times they’re of the sexier type – you know, those hugs that start with that special little look, pelvises touching, hands roaming, little kisses, bodies moving in time… that might happen at 2pm on a Saturday in the kitchen with the kids nearby and no chance of it leading to anything more at the time, but it’s a sexy little snippet of intimacy between me and SO and that’s a kind of hug I only share with her.
If I ever had a hug like that with LO, I’d consider us to be crossing into a PA, but our hugs have never been like that. Our hugs are warm and loving but not sexual, because we’ve always made such a point to avoid any hint of sexual connection with each other. Our hugs are more like big comforting bear hugs, I’ll wrap my arms around her and she’ll lay her head on my chest and we’ll just hold each other like that for the span of a few deep breaths feeling warm and loved and secure, and then we go our separate ways. Those hugs are wonderful and I find them very fulfilling and sufficient in and of themselves without feeling like I need them to be “more” – I actually really treasure those moments of connection so much and I strongly believe that if I ever abused one of those moments by turning it into a “sexy hug”, it would end up ruining everything for everybody.
Adam,
” Kissing is always intimate. ”
I see what you’re saying, but I’m going to disagree. Kissing can be as mechanical as sex. Any kind of physical contact can be mechanical. Trust me on this one. 🙂
Actually when I think about it, when I hug LO I feel very little temptation to sexualize the hug – I don’t find myself struggling with temptations to slide my hands anywhere they shouldn’t go or kiss her or anything like that.
Rather, the biggest struggle for me when we hug is to keep myself from saying the words “I love you”, because that always seems to want to come out. But I keep that inside my head and I know it just needs to be understood and felt but not said out loud.
Adam,
“There’s a male member of my wife’s family that gives out unsolicited hugs, no matter gender and it’s really weird to me. ”
I don’t know about the family member, but I think a guy asking a woman, “Can I have a hug?” is weird and beyond cringey. A co-worker, for example. I’d have married guys at work ask me that, and it just seems like a sanctioned way to cop a feel. It skeeved me out.
Thanks, Lost in Space. Casual hugging is common in my social circle. I was getting worried that it meant more to other people than it means to me. I’m not so worried now. My SO is a big hugger, his whole family are big huggers. I’ve seen my SO snuggle my girlfriends and it doesn’t look sexual at all. He is just friendly. This conversation had me questioning things, but I’m not questioning it after you described the casual hugs that you exchange with other people. I have a male running friend who I hug and we exchange “I love yous” but I’ve never felt a sexual vibe from him. I’ve also seen him greet men the same way he greets me. I think casual hugging is different for everyone. Unfortunately, I can’t read minds. I don’t want to trigger sexual feelings in someone, but I can’t know in advance who is triggered by a hug and who isn’t.
I used to live on an island where hugging and kissing was the standard greeting. You hug and kiss on the cheek. It was so normal that I didn’t think anything of it. When we had visitors to our church from the states, I would get so excited to see someone that I could relate to. I would hug and kiss the female right away. I’d forget to consider that she wasn’t used to that type of greeting. And since I look like a Latina, she would assume that I was a friendly islander. I still remember the looks of confusion. It was unintentional on my part, but still funny. Give that woman a few days and she starts hugging and kissing everyone, too. I thought I would hate all the hugging and kissing because I am a bit germaphobic, but I liked it. My SO prepared me for it because he had already lived in a culture like that. He knew we would have to get used to it. It was quite lovely.
I feel strongly that hugging, kissing and even snuggling can be non sexual. I don’t think it falls into the affair category. However, you and Marcia are right that there is a difference between a hug and a HUG. I guess if you wouldn’t do it with your parents or your child, then you’re probably crossing a boundary.
Miss Marcia
Maybe that’s the western society talking, when hugs and kisses are reserved for romantic encounters. Like Miss Lovisa said where she was from it was a standard greeting. But I agree with you about wanting to hug someone not your romantic partner or family. And even then I don’t hug my family members or my wife’s family unless they just come over and grab one from me. Those two things are very exclusive to my wife. Even when I was dating all I did was hold my date’s hand. No hugs or kisses. To me those are very intimate things.
Adam,
“Maybe that’s the western society talking, when hugs and kisses are reserved for romantic encounters. ”
I don’t know that hugs have to be reserved for romantic encounters. A family member. A close friend, sure. But some random co-worker at work … can I have a hug? … that’s an attempt to see if they can get beyond the hug and how far you’ll let them go.
But kissing? A quick kiss on the cheek from grandma. But other than that, it’s getting romantic.
And if you (the universal “you”) have strong feelings for someone, whether or not your intention is sexual, it’s probably best to not touch them at all. If one or both of you is not available.
Such an interesting discussion! I think it is hard to some up with a single common definition of what constitutes an EA or a PA as every as person and every couple has their own unique boundaries of what is acceptable to them within their relationship. Secrecy vs transparency would be at the heart of any definition I suspect.
i.e. I think you can only use the “affair” word at all if you are doing something you could not (and do not) tell you partner about frankly and honestly. For me personally, if my SO was seeing someone and hiding it from me, that would be an affair of some sort. If he enjoyed the company of a woman, was attracted to her, spent time with her and flirted with her, so long as he is completely transparent about it with me, and I confirmed to him that I was OK with it, that would not be an affair.
If you are with someone you are attracted to, and you hug/shoulder rub/ touch/etc them in a way that gives one or both of you both sexual pleasure, that is the point where it just about edges over the line into a PA for me.
Yay! I look forward to the book! And if you miss a week, we can just go back and read old blogs and comments like rewatching a favorite movie.
The most outstanding things I’ve learned from LwL:
1. There are dodgy LOs out there who collect limerents for sport.
2. The ‘waxing hot and cold’ behavior of LOs is rocket fuel for the condition.
3. Limerence is an addiction.
4. Limerence dies when not fed. Freedom is possible and within grasp.
5. Those of us with a predisposition to limerence will experience it repeatedly until we know how to identify the glimmer and put up shields.
6. Limerents are somewhat unique and have inner depth and complexity.
7. Turning a LO into a platonic friend is almost impossible. (If we’re honest).
8. Happiness of a more meaningful kind is possible post LE.
9. Limerence is not necessarily love.
10. We deserve more than a limerent fantasy!
I like the list, Jaideux, and the numbered points. It’s a good way to view the similarities and the differences as a result of our different experiences.
1) I can understand this although I don’t think it applies to my LO. Can I be absolutely sure though? Also I have had two women be limerent for me over the past twenty years. To my shame, each time until I was in very deep indeed, I had no idea and I just thought that I had met a lovely friend who liked gay men!
3) Yep, for sure.
4) Ye gods, I certainly hope that is true.
7) Yes, I have recently accepted that this is so true.
8) That’s really encouraging.
Hi there Frederico,
Some limerent objects are not dodgy! They are just innocent souls that we glimmer for. In fact, there is a fellow who to my horror and discomfort has been limerent for me most of my adult life! I avoid him as much as I can but occasionally our paths cross and his limerence for me goes through the roof. It’s so disturbing. And I am not dodgy at all, I promise!
As far as #8 : it will happen. It takes time and a healthy environment for the heart to heal, but heal it will. 🙂
Dear Dr L,
I can’t improve on Jaideux’s list and especially want to reiterate the helpfulness (for me) of points 3 & 4
3. Limerence is an addiction.
4. Limerence dies when not fed. Freedom is possible and within grasp.
It really is a matter of convincing your self to stop ruminating and self-medicating on this person and (voila!) you begin to feel a bit better and symptoms start to ease. Even if they do not, awareness of what you are doing to yourself and the irrelevance of what the LO does or does not do, is very illuminating.
I think something else that could be useful might be intersections, so the association between the tendency to develop limerence and other human conditions including: OCD, introversion, highly sensitive person, addictive personality, etc. I hesitate to call these ‘disorders’ because not all of them are….
I also think that I would really enjoy reading a chapter with some of the memorable quotes that posters have made. Frederico already mentioned Marcia’s classic
“One of the hardest things to grasp as a limerent is that it doesn’t matter what you do. Call the LO. Don’t call. Text. Don’t text. Plant yourself in places so you can run into them. Or don’t. None of it matters and it won’t change anything.” – this is a classic!
But there have been many others over the years – I remember some which were more illustrative of the ‘highs’ of limerence (including a few very colourful contributions from Rainbowbrite that resonated deeply with me at one point).
Your book needs to get across your humour, which is a godsend. Us limerents can be a serious, broody, melancholic bunch 🙂 !!
Dear Bewitched,
Thank you so much for pointing out the need for Dr.L to fill his new book up with his clever humour.
I’ve been thinking about this since the blog came out.
The hilarious photos and amusing “turnings of a phrase”are balms for wounded hearts and relief from our “broody, melancholic” selves as you so eloquently put it.
Great list Jaideux! I second all of this with nothing to add.
🥰 thanks Allie!
@Jaideux.
I like your list. Points 3 and 6 stand out the most for me.
“3. Limerence is an addiction.”
Perhaps one question limerents might like to ask themselves is: “Can you pinpoint the moment limerence felt like it went from a pleasant fantasy to an addiction for you?”
I’d hazard a guess that the LO does or says something (often very slight) that nonetheless reinforces the idea in the limerent’s mind that they (the LO) might be up for a romantic relationship. The limerent then feels like they have LO’s permission to fantasise (because of perceived dropped hints). Fantasies turn into intrusive thoughts and intrusive thoughts form the basis of person addiction.
“6. Limerents are somewhat unique and have inner depth and complexity.”
I think most limerents are introverts. Introverts have a very rich inner world, and this rich inner world can often overshadow what’s going on in the outer world i.e. the world that extroverts inhabit.
I think a lot of limerent inttoverts (INFJs/INFPs) can’t tell the difference between an “imaginary relationship” and an “emotional affair”, but they still feel guilty about their strong emotions/misplaced loyalties anyway.
Hint: it’s not an emotional affair if your LO is single and denies it’s an emotional affair. It’s probably just a friendship with a weird fantasy overlay and half the time the LO (if a sensor type) isn’t even aware of this weird fantasy overlay.
For me answer to question #1 is this:
Limerence is not a luminous, I found my soul mate situation. It’s just a person addiction. I like to call my intense romantic desires for LO my bad brain chemicals. Once I realized this I realized it could be managed and it did not need to hi-jack my life.
Question #2:
Strategies to manage limerence when NC is not possible. How do you coexist with an LO. I am of the opinion NC is the answer to 99% of LEs but sometimes NC is just not possible even if desired.
I also agree with everything Jaideux wrote
“Bad brain chemicals”. I like that, Speedwagon.
I look forward to reading the new book, Dr L, and I very much hope that it will increase the general awareness and understanding of limerence.
I hesitated to post a comment, in case it somehow becomes a further trigger for my own limerence, but I feel somewhat triggered at the moment anyway.
1) The most useful nugget of wisdom I’ve discovered on LwL is that there is only one way out of what to me is an awful state of mind. That is: No Contact combined with Purposeful Living.
That’s hardly rocket science to anyone here. I have read all the relevant blogs and comments dozens of times. The thing is, I learned the principles and I carefully studied the results of other people’s experiences but I did not fully accept them for my own situation. The power of limerence was so strong that I instinctively constructed loopholes and workarounds, all to no avail.
Actually, as someone who is now older and, perhaps inevitably, not fully fit, I like to think of Purposeful Living more in terms of Distractions and Mindfulness. I don’t know much about mindfulness but I have recently been trying to live very much in the moment and to banish any intrusive thoughts as soon as I realise what is happening. It has worked to some degree. Last week, with some trepidation because of the journey, I took a very long train trip to visit some good friends and I stayed at their house. My thoughts of my LO were much fewer because of the distraction. Early mornings were still a bit dodgy.
It feels right to mention here that I have learned a lot from your altruism, your patience and your humorous approach, together with the diverse array of comments from the punters. It has made me less grumpy. A comment that grabbed my attention about a month ago was this one from Marcia. I love the way it simply cuts to the chase:-
“One of the hardest things to grasp as a limerent is that it doesn’t matter what you do. Call the LO. Don’t call. Text. Don’t text. Plant yourself in places so you can run into them. Or don’t. None of it matters and it won’t change anything.”
2) What I would most like to learn about from the book is how on earth I came to be limerent to this seemingly overwhelming degree. Some clues about links to childhood experiences, perhaps without the complications of personality-type labels, would always be helpful. Also, the blog about the Neuroscience Of Limerence is one that I have read several times. Sadly, I cannot always remember all the details but I think, especially to the uninitiated, this sort of information is likely to be very helpful indeed and will provide some reassurance.
I am single, without the advantages, or the complications, of ever having been in a relationship, so my situation should perhaps be simple. It doesn’t quite feel that way. My has LE lasted for four years. I have decided that there will be no more excuses and that I must make sure it ends. I think my attempts to keep an underlying friendship on the back burner, so that all would be well one day, were pie in the sky. It just doesn’t work. My irresistible temptation was to send Birthday cards, Christmas cards and occasional presents to the little girl. I am forcing myself to close that loophole.
There has been No Contact since Christmas – I’ve said that in previous years, I seem to recall.
I feel a bit angry with my LO at the moment and I am trying to use that emotion to help me see him more realistically. Our friendship, originally as neighbours, became very strong, or so I thought. His affectionate messages and exchanges became so exciting and addictive that they seemed to light up my life. I never actually realised that we were having some kind of EA, especially as he is much younger, and I just enjoyed the experience until it became too late. The responsibility for everything was 50/50 I would say.
I do not believe for one moment that he ever tried to be manipulative. He may have wanted a bit of a father-figure friend. I don’t think that is quite what I turned out to be. He is a slightly nervous people-pleaser, with a delightful friendly demeanour, and I felt elated by the considerable boost to my self-esteem.
There were clues that things were going sour. He has a SO, and a little daughter now, and he has moved away so it’s not really that surprising. After having helpfully listened to me when I was deciding on what medical treatment to opt for, he said that he would “support me all the way” whatever I decided. The ghosting came suddenly when I was just about to have the treatment and so it’s not difficult to harness a bit of emotion from that. The sensible me realises that it would be a bit of a tall order to expect someone, who may be a bit naïve and who befriended me as a neighbour, to actually stick by me through thick and thin, especially as he is a lot younger and has family responsibilities. He may also now be embarrassed about having so cordially invited me to visit the new home – the invitations were spurious – his parents live next door.
I very much hope that if I don’t make any further contact, and I try to keep busy with other things, the limerence will inevitably fade. I try to picture limerence itself as the brilliant, iridescent, tempting lizard in one of the historic blogs pictures. Now I just have to be very careful indeed not to prod the lizard or give it the time of day.
Another thing I’ve learned from LwL is that most LO’s are younger, sometimes much younger than the limerent. I think the LO thinks it’s “safe” to get platonically close, the limerent finds the youthful LO, combined with active limerence, irresistibly intoxicating as subconsciously the cocktail of the two makes limerents feel young and energetic and creative and curious just as they once were when they were young.
That’s a difficult drug to give up.
It is possible however to be adventurous and fun and young in spirit, to be strong and healthy and creative even as one ages, and much less risky to be this vibrant person without the catalyst of limerence.
It can be done! But it takes determination and self respect and genuinely liking oneself.
Then the sparkling person we are is real, not a fraud that was manipulated by limerence.
I’m sorry you’re struggling right now, Frederico.
Thank you, Lovisa. Your kindness is very much appreciated. I have learned a lot from you over the past couple of years.
Yes, I am struggling right now but many, many people are in worse situations.
I now need to do the “right thing” and I think everything will be alright. We live and learn.
All best wishes to you and your family.
f
@frederico.
I would like to respond to your comments. I don’t want to trigger you in any way. However, as a fellow man and as a fellow gay man, I would like to help steer your emotional responses very gently in a direction you might find helpful…
“The most useful nugget of wisdom I’ve discovered on LwL is that there is only one way out of what to me is an awful state of mind. That is: No Contact combined with Purposeful Living.”
I actually think the answer is even more simple than this in emotional terms. Let’s look at limerence in purely emotional terms. Limerence is obsession. The only true escape from obsession is your brain fully accepting that your LO doesn’t return the obsession (and thus you have no reason to be obsessed with him).
If you want to be free emotionally from limerence, you must accept that your LO isn’t obsessed with you. You must accept that he doesn’t reciprocate the powerful feelings you have for him. It’s very hard to reach this conclusion cognitively on your own, however, because you want to keep getting hits of dopamine from the interaction.
The interaction feels so good on a chemical level you want it to continue indefinitely. No contact/purposeful living, while not an instant cure, over a long period of time, will help get your dopamine production back on track. But, emotionally-speaking, you need to accept this person isn’t your person and is never going to be your person. He belongs to himself. Maybe in loving him so deeply what you’re really trying to do is love certain aspects of yourself? 🤔
“My irresistible temptation was to send Birthday cards, Christmas cards and occasional presents to the little girl. I am forcing myself to close that loophole.”
Admit to yourself you met a man, a very nice man no doubt, and you felt a special connection to this man. Admit to yourself also you hoped that this man would feel the same level of special connection to you. You were looking for a unique attachment to this man – a unique attachment that this man also recognised instinctively and valued.
There’s nothing wrong with feeling tremendous warmth toward another human who seems special. That proves you have a big heart. There’s nothing wrong with craving deep attachments in general. All human beings are wired for connection. Connection is essential for our survival as a species. What’s wrong is trying to impose said attachment on another person if said attachment isn’t happening naturally. It seems to me like that the special level of connection you desired was only happening inside the hearts of one of you.
“I feel a bit angry with my LO at the moment and I am trying to use that emotion to help me see him more realistically.”
Anger is totally understandable, and it can be useful at times. However, anger is also an emotion that prevents us from detaching from LO. Anger (and other negative emotions) actually strengthen the fantasy bond, and keep us trapped in rumination. You need to find a way to move from anger to sadness. Sadness is what will help you flush the obsessive part of the connection out of your system.
“I now have a bit of a lump in my throat …”
That is an interesting choice of words. “Lump in throat” is actually one of the physiological symptoms of limerence that people feel when rejection seems imminent. (The other two symptoms are pain in midpoint of chest and pain in lower intestines, as if someone has just punched you in the gut). If someone feels a lump in their throat, that usually is an indication that that person wishes to cry. Crying is the behaviour that naturally follows lump in throat. You don’t need to hold it all in. Give yourself permission to cry when you feel the need to cry.
Big hugs to you, mister. Take care of yourself. 🙂
Hello Sammy. Thank you for taking the time to let me have your kind thoughts, which I have taken on board. I am still in a dark place with all this and my latest strategy of complete NC, with no more hope, and positive awareness of banishing the intrusive thoughts as they occur, simply has to work now.
It’s difficult to fathom my LO to some degree because in the past he sent me affectionate messages such as “Merry Christmas, My Love” and he sometimes constructed beautiful messages using hearts and the range of emoji images. I did not think through what was happening. So I would say that the limerence was once entirely mutual except that, even so, I did not fully realise it.
He is no longer “obsessed” because it became impossible for him and/or it faded when he moved away, I think; he has a new life and he may have gone through all sorts of emotions. I don’t know. In many ways it doesn’t matter because he clearly no longer wants any contact and I too realise that I must demolish the limerence on my part.
It’s tough but this is what can happen if you don’t understand the dangers of what you initially perceive to be an exciting friendship.
frederico
My dear friend this man’s behavior towards you is bizarre to me. Please take my comment with a grain of salt and please don’t take offense. I am a man of old school. I know you are older than me my friend. But please forgive me for what follows. I mean no disrespect to your LO. I only say this out of the adoration I have for our exchanges.
My personal take on your LO is that I wonder if he is using you to test the waters of his own sexuality. I don’t know any “straight” (god I hate that word) man that would behave the way your LO does. “My love”? That’s really suspect to me. I get the feeling that he is using you as a bisexual guneia pig for his own test. He doesn’t want to go “all in” but he wants the reward he gets without the commitment by contacting you and indulging in this way. And that’s unfair to you. Granted I know nothing about anything outside of heterosexuality but as said person I know, I, at least would never behave towards another man that way, especially (if he knows you are) a homosexual man as he does to you.
Forgive me my friend. I don’t mean to offend. I’m not trying to be x-phobic. I just am just looking out for your heart. I hate to see you hurting.
This is just a thought that has been jumbling around in my brain for a long time since we met. I have been trying to articulate how to express it all this time. I hope that I said it well here now.
Maybe we can have a drink together someday. As long as it’s not white wine or tequila I’m good lol
Adam, thank you for your kind words too and, of course, nothing that you say is ever offensive.
I have only been able to confide fully with one wise friend in real life, whose opinion I value. He felt that LO may have had some doubts about his sexuality. Looking back, that does seem to have been very possible and it makes me regret not extinguishing the flame earlier – perhaps when he first hugged me. It was, however, a very special bond, or so I thought, and I believed until quite recently that we would be life-long friends.
His SO sometimes seemed a bit moody sometimes but I put that down to the trials and tribulations of becoming a mum. Maybe she found me irritating.
We never talked about sex or sexuality but we became mutual confidantes and he sent me a message saying just that. The subject of whether or not I was gay didn’t come up because, although I find him attractive, it never crossed my mind to mention it. People do tend to know, though. I have always been gay, simply just gay, and I have never had a relationship. That might explain my apparent nativity, if that’s what it was.
I am glad that you did indeed articulate the thought jumbling around in your brain and I feel humbled by it. It is, I think, one small step further in enabling me to close down my feelings.
You seem to be doing well these days, which is very encouraging.
“He is no longer “obsessed” because it became impossible for him and/or it faded when he moved away, I think; he has a new life and he may have gone through all sorts of emotions. I don’t know. In many ways it doesn’t matter because he clearly no longer wants any contact and I too realise that I must demolish the limerence on my part.
It’s tough but this is what can happen if you don’t understand the dangers of what you initially perceive to be an exciting friendship.”
@frederico.
You’re showing a lot of self-awareness in what you say here, as well as a desire to respect what another person might be feeling i.e. that this person doesn’t want any further contact from you. Although you’re suffering, and in a “dark place”, you’re actually in a very healthy place mentally I feel because your empathy is still functioning and you obviously want to do what’s best for everybody.
I was in a similar situation to you once – a beautiful friendship with another male. (Crazy beautiful. Gorgeous eyes). I’m not going to speculate on his sexuality, because after brooding a long time on the subject I have concluded his sexuality is none of my business.
We were both young at the time, final year of high school. There were moments, e.g. we had just finished a 400m race, which seemed absolutely fraught with sexual tension. (We were both happy. We were both flushed. We were laughing, and surrounded by all our other friends. We were staring at each other with shining eyes. In that moment, I could have sworn that he was in love in me). 😉
Yes, this friendship had that daring, exciting, dangerous quality. I think we both enjoyed that quality in the initial stages, and both craved it to some degree. We probably did crave each other mildly, and the craving was mutual. Like we were daring each other to connect on a deeper and deeper level. However, this state of excitement/anticipation wasn’t going to last forever. Of course, the lad was going to move on e.g. prioritising other male friends over me, university, dating, marriage, work, family life, etc.
I think, for the sake of your own mental health, you need to be very careful in how you frame this friendship you had. Don’t go searching for the darkest possible meanings e.g. “Oh, he was just using me.” Permit yourself kind and gentle interpretations of events – as long as these kind and gentle interpretations don’t feed/reignite your obsession. Make room for human error (on both sides).
I think the healthiest way to frame this friendship is to say to yourself that, yes, you were indeed special to this other man – for a limited period of time and only for a limited period of time. (And nobody needs to feel guilty about that).
This other man, at least for a time, probably viewed your shared friendship as a very positive thing in his life. At times, it may have felt (to you) as if you were in mutual limerence. At times, to you, it may have felt like you were going to be lifelong friends. I can only imagine your elation at receiving such a warm Christmas greeting.
This man probably did intentionally seek you out – time and again – for affection, attention, validation, all those wonderful things. And you kindly and generously provided those things to this man. You are not a bad person. In short, you nurtured this male when he sought out nurturing from you. And that’s all well and good. Again, nobody needs to feel guilty because nobody did anything wrong.
But here’s the catch, Frederico, my man. You did commit one tiny social faux pas. You broke the “Bro Code”. (Don’t worry. Every gay man has broken the “Bro Code” at least once in his life). How did you break the Bro Code? You broke the Bro Code by falling in love with your platonic best friend.
The truth is your infatuation with your friend probably deepened to a point (completely understandably) where it started to make your friend feel ill-at-ease in your company. You likely started to feel possessive over your friend. And jealous, possessive energy is something other people can sense, even if you think you’re doing a really good job of hiding it. Perhaps your friend felt like he could no longer be his “real self” around you, especially if his real self is affectionate and mildly flirty? (Because you’ll read into everything).
I very respectfully disagree with Adam that your friend was confused about his sexuality or using you as some kind of guinea pig. (Although I totally understand Adam’s logic. There are tons of straight men who wouldn’t be caught dead doing anything that could be interpreted/misinterpreted as “gay” in some way. A lot of straight men refuse to be friends with other men for this very reason, and hence the Western epidemic of male friendlessness).
I think Adam’s interpretation is a bit too-deep, too-dark for a very common, mundane problem. I think there are many straight men out there who aren’t confused about their sexuality. However, these very same men – in a very innocent way – have a spell in their lives where they enjoy being very close to another male. I think it is almost a developmental stage. And, unfortunately, gay men are often the only men who are “emotionally available” enough to provide the desired temporary closeness, affection, validation.
During this “very close” phase, these otherwise female-focused males will seek out nurturing from other males. They may even act a bit lovesick at times – or, at the very least, not object overtly to lovesick behaviour from male friends. It’s actually a huge privilege that your friend sought you out for this kind of close bond. It shows that he trusted you. Unfortunately, what seems to have happened is you have certain needs of your own that your friend was probably unaware of. (Your friend didn’t know you were going to get so attached to him. You friend was happy with a light attachment).
Here’s another way to think about your situation that you might find helpful. Most human beings are selfish to some degree. However, most human beings are not sadistic. At a certain point in limerence, all limerents become absolutely terrified of rejection, start walking on eggshells around LO, etc.
Now think about this from your friend’s point of view. Do you really think he’d want you to go through life, terrified that he (or some other man) is going to reject you at any moment, causing you unbearable anguish? Does that sound like friendship to you? Your friend may have been selfish in a very casual way at times, but I doubt he was ever sadistic. In short, you’re suffering, but it was never your friend’s intention that you should suffer over him. 🤔
Goodness, Jaideux, you are someone whose posts I have read, literally for several years, and this has
made me sit up. Thank you for your eloquence and the benefit of your wisdom.
I have sometimes felt slightly embarrassed that my LO is considerably younger than me.
A small part of me would quite like to slap him across the chops.
I now have a bit of a lump in my throat after reading your comment, I am going to try to ditch any residual feelings of bitterness and, within the next few weeks or months, be adventurous, fun and young in spirit. How hard can it be?
Well, ok, I may have had a whisky but I will try to remember this:-
“It can be done! But it takes determination and self respect and genuinely liking oneself.
Then the sparkling person we are is real, not a fraud that was manipulated by limerence.”
Thanks, Jaideux
Frederico I’m having a symbolic whisky with you and I have full confidence that you are fascinating and fun and don’t need that young LO to bring it out of you! Let the LO go with silent well wishes and a breath of relief.
You’re free! 🚴
The most useful nugget of wisdom I discovered here was not a nugget at all.
It was a gigantic boulder!!!
I am so grateful to have found this blog, Dr. L and all of you.
A year and a half ago I had no clue what was happening to me, I thought I was going mad!
Now it has a name AND an explanation!
It also forced me to confront myself and my childhood issues, which in turn brought me to therapy.
I was going to say “win, win” but I haven’t quite “won” yet.
Even though I am recovering from LO #2, I refuse to entertain an LO #3
I REFUSE because now I know what “The Glimmer” is and how to avoid it.
I am so grateful because I’m sure Limerence would of been something that would of happened to me over and over and over again.
Also, I agree very much with Nisor on “How to handle grief after No Contact”
That would be very beneficial right now and I think a lot of us are at that point.
Just reading the words before it actually sinks into my head would give some relief. I know it!
Congrats on the book Dr. L, looking forward to it!
Oh, I wanted to add:
During my sit down with my therapist this week we were discussing ways to help me along with Limerence recovery (yes, she must of educated herself on the subject~yay!!)
I was telling her about things that I though were helping and one was looking at LO in a negative light.
eg: being angry that I got sucked in by a Narcissist and the things they say and do to keep you hooked ( I called it the “Double Whammy)
Having a Narcissist as an LO can make things more difficult as some of you know.
BUT I have to accept my part in it as well.
Anyway, she said that anger may make me feel in control at the moment but in the long run, it just keeps me stuck.
Anger for my LO just draws him CLOSER and will make rumination stronger.
She said that I need to sit with the sadness and forego the anger if I can.
I don’t like the sadness uuggg..
But, apparently sadness will eventually fade long before anger will.
Not sure if I’m making much sense here but at the end of the day I guess what she means is acceptance will win in the long run.
I think Dr. L may have addressed this in one of the blog posts.
Maybe some tips and tricks would make for a good discussion on what works for some of you on our journeys here.
Anna,
I agree with your therapist: aim to grieve, and eventually let anger go. Narcissist would be fed by negative fuel as well…
I’ll copy the continuous part of the article on Narcissist in the other blog where we had spoken last time.
I’m very glad to hear your progress.
Biggest thing I learnt is that limerence exists. Just knowing about it broke the spell for me. I really don’t even know what drew me to LO in such an intense way. Why him? Why then? It was instant and felt like I was cursed because I didn’t choose it. I didn’t choose him.
Giving fair warning, I’m going to get ranty…
If it happened all over again, I finally know what I’d say. And will say to any other guy who does nothing more than the highly irritating flirty bullshit dance!
The main issue was the plausible deniability. So I took it out of the equation. I just need to say ‘your intention is irrelevant, but your behavior comes across as flirty. If you’re doing it because you need to feel desirable, I’m not interested in providing that validation for you. If you’re doing it because you’re interested, then maybe grow some nurries and ask me to go for a coffee or something’. 🤷♀️ (obviously I wouldn’t say the last part if he was married!) Whatever their response, doesn’t matter. I just need to be rid of uncertainty. That’s the key really, isn’t it? Getting rid of uncertainty somehow.
I am not limerent for anyone right now but I do feel annoyed and think a lot about these irritating situations because they happen to me a lot. I’m currently very angry with married or coupled men who flirt with me because I’m alone. That’s not fair. they’re trying to use me for validation and go home to their wives. I go home to nobody. I was quite proud of myself recently for being straight up very early on with someone I can’t avoid.
I think a lot of it is protecting ego and being manipulative from both limerents and LOs. Have the courage to be honest with yourself and other people and maybe you won’t have these problems!
The nugget of Wisdom I get from being here is the fact that limerence falls on me. Realizing from many posts over time, that LO never asked my infatuation and that it’s quite unfair of me to expect her reciprocation because of it. Thank God I never sent her flowers. I thank all of you fine people for your posting about real disclosures.
Lovisa is correct that uncertainty does increase obsessive behavior. Jaideux mentions she has been dealing with a limerent for a long time. The behavior that limerent expresses is probably similar to how I appear to LO when she is around. The uncertainty I felt every day when we were still working in the same building together, was the roller coaster of emotions which was terrible. I’m still emotional at times but not as often, so I suppose I’m slowly working my way out. The idea of her is still appealing and I keep hoping our paths will cross again at some point, but it will happen when I least expect it. Always does.
I do have my other Lady Friend now that I’m getting to know and it’s been a joy to have someone around for once that feels like something could possibly be in the works for us down the road. I really don’t know what that is yet. In no way am I limerent for her though and in no way do I want to be limerent for her. Somehow we just seem to be connecting normally and I’m striving like hell, to keep things light. Because love-bombing her definitely isn’t the right approach. So perhaps that is something else LwL has taught me from being here and reading the blogs. I have definitely appreciated the Community and the support from everyone.
As for learning something in the book, I think maybe for myself it would be learning tools to help deal with the drama and grief and depression associated with LC and NC. This is definitely something I have struggled with.
So happy to hear things have progressed with your Lady Friend! Good for you, MJ!
Send some luck my way, will you? I’d rather be single than in the wrong relationship, but I have been alone for two years now 😔
Thank you Cordelia. It is nice to see you posting here again. You have always brought your real and unique perspective to the table and I believe it has purpose in this forum.
We are in good company being alone for two years now. Actually a little over 2 for me and many, many more if I include my divorce, but I usually don’t. I don’t necessarily see New Lady Friend as potential for relationship just yet, but I am starting to get a connection vibe and hoping she will let me cross the drawbridge and into her castle properly, like a real Gentleman should do. (Your castle metaphor still cracks me up)
I wish you luck here from the States. I feel like you probably have very good discernment on who to let in at some point. Being cautious and careful, along with what has enlightened you here will help as well. But you knew that already, lol..
Stay in touch Cheerleader. I’m still good for messing a great thing up. I may need you again.
Aww thanks, MJ! Well I’ll keep fingers crossed for you and will still keep checking in now and then.
I owe a fair bit of the growth I’ve achieved to this blog and the people here.
Yes, I’m definitely not going to fall for the charming narcissist (previous partner, not LO) again! Nor ‘flirty but otherwise minimum effort guys’. Nup. He has to respect castle lore and come in via the portcullis (as you say, like a gentleman!) with both the confidence (because he’s done the inner work and isn’t caught up in his ego) and patience (again because he’s done the work) that requires!
I think with limerance time is the ultimate, and only true healer. So the people who are experiencing it for the first time like I am will feel like it’s never going away, but they have to know it will. That being said the only obstacle to time healing is the inconsistent perpetual reinforcement due to uncertainty created by the constant energy change of the lo. Once the limerant is aware of this I think it has much less power as you can controll your own energy. This is all under the assumption that no contact is not possible which would of course be the best option. I remember reading on here that limerance could carry on for 20 years IF uncertainty is constantly being enforced. The fear i felt from reading that helped me more than anything else I think. People here are saying reducing limerance to just brain chemistry has helped them and that helped me at first. But speaking now after 2 years of suffering I’m finally started to feel better and for me maybe because its my first girl I ever liked. It makes me feel better to know that it was a meaningful experience and not just an addiction craving and that its okay to move on from it.
Thanks all, for the brilliant suggestions and feedback so far!
Really appreciated 🙂
Dr. L,
coming here I learnt for the first time that I had experienced this life changing thing called the Glimmer and I was at the height of this thing called limerence and that it’s a thing. I’m not special. Or all limerents are special ? Hmm ?
Anyway, I would say the main nugget was how LwL educated me that it’s not some twin flame destiny drama that will unfurl like a movie and that I have no control over. It taught me to step back and understand what and why this is happening in my own head to then properly address and head off initiating that conversation with LO to establish if LO feels the same way, that urgency to need to know if LO desires me even if we cant do anything about it ( this applies to those with barriers).
That would have been selfish. I’ve learned that. Also the feeling for some kind of closure, many talk of writing a letter or sending a final message to their LO. I’ve learned from LwL blogs and community that it’s all generally a bad idea and you won’t need to do so when you have worked it through yourself and moved on from LE (appreciate there are some exceptions).
On the book, I would like it to include personality types that are more prone to limerence and prone to LOs. I’m not an expert at all but I’m intuitive and my LO is probably a sensor, for example, and knowing these things what to watch out for or do, to be better equipped in this crazy world !
Also the book needs to come with a faux book cover saying “Pride and Prejudice” so no-one knows what I’m actually reading 😀
Also the book needs to come with a faux book cover saying “Pride and Prejudice” so no-one knows what I’m actually reading 😀
Imho,
Does anybody else really know what limerence is? Besides the so few of us here? So many Therapists don’t it seems. I say keep limerence on the cover. It will make you look more intelligent.. 🤓😎
@MJ.
“Also the book needs to come with a faux book cover saying “Pride and Prejudice” so no-one knows what I’m actually reading 😀”
That is very good, MJ. Very funny. Now remember, if anyone asks, your favourite character is named “Mr William Collins”. 😜
@MJ.
Sorry. I seem to have attributed Imho’s clever comment to you, when you were simply quoting Imho. 😉
Ha ha, thanks Sammy ! actually good prompt as I meant to reply to MJ.
I imagine myself reading the new book (with original book cover) on a train. A really handsome guy gets on the train and sits opposite me. I raise my eyes above my book and our eyes connect, we have a moment, we nervously smile at each other. As the journey progresses he is intrigued what I’m reading and Google’s the word limerence. (other search engines are available) As he reads the definition a look of horror and fear sweeps across his beautiful face. He quickly gets up and frantically looks for somewhere else to sit !!!
My Bad Sammy. I forgot to put imho’s comment in quotes..
😑
Imho..
Yes, a look of horror and dismay, lmao..
😳🥺😯😧
Us limerents sure are a unique bunch aren’t we??
@MJ.
“My Bad Sammy. I forgot to put imho’s comment in quotes. 😑”
It’s all good, mate. I think Imho’s joke was a very good joke, and one of those jokes that only improves in the retelling. 😜
“What’s the most useful nugget of wisdom you’ve discovered on LwL?”
The description of limerence as “person addiction” helped me so much in context. I have struggled with addictions of some kind most of my life. Some I have overcome and some I haven’t. When I started to look at her like an addictive substance it didn’t feel like love, it felt like what it was, a crippling addiction.
“What would you most like to learn about in the book?”
Ways to protect oneself from future limerent episodes. I don’t want this to happen again.
Hello all,
No doubt most of you will recognize this as my first post. I found you after reading the New York Times article on Limerence on 2/4/24. Going forward from that day my life is divided into two periods, like BC and AD, only for me it’s BAL (before awareness of limerence) and AAL (after awareness of limerence). It has taken me a month to get up to speed on this concept that has governed my whole darn life, and I never knew about it!
“There are these two young fish swimming along and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says “Morning, boys. How’s the water?” And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes “What the hell is water?”
.
Like the famous 2005 David Foster Wallace commencement speech “This is Water”, at the ripe age of 61 I realized only a month ago that I have been swimming surrounded by varying levels of limerence my whole life and never knew it.
Unlike some who I have seen commenting on this forum, my limerence does not stem from a distressing childhood or trauma. I clearly see that I have been this way since pre-school, it’s just the way I go through life. It is a fundamental pillar of my personality, and it is how I fell in love multiple times over the course of my life.
My late teens and 20’s are a blur of limerence bonanzas. The LO’s stand out like sore thumbs now that I have the vocabulary and understanding (thanks Dr. L) to label them. There was then a quiet period after my marriage (my current husband was one of my OG LO’s!).
Then followed a lovely, calm, and tranquil period of my life for 34 years where there might have been a very transient glimmer here and there but really no limerence. And then BANG, I didn’t know what hit me. 7 years younger than I (helpful from the forum about the prevalence of younger LO’s), also married. Diametrically opposite in personality from my husband. And co-limerent for me. I was a goner.
My diaries from that period read like a limerence diagnostic manual. Does he feel what I feel? What does this mean about how I feel about my husband (who I adore)? Am I going insane?!
This forum has helped me understand what is going on in my head. Through the blog posts I am pretty sure I am also a sensor (albeit a dormant sensor for quite a while- most of my married life I was not coming in contact with men that would spark limerence) and the very fact that I could feel his limerence and that I was 7 years older and had the ability to create that kind of interest in a much younger man…and hey, am I still capable of attracting the male gaze at the ripe old age of 58?
It brought back a lot of memories from those early years. Truth be told, back then my limerence was nearly always rewarded with reciprocal feelings, so I was never in the psychological pain that true limerence produces. Not until this time, with barriers and SO’s galore, that’s when I first really understood psychic pain related to longing and uncertainty.
I am still processing a lot of this information, combing through old blog posts and reading all the comments. Congratulations Dr. L on your book. Might I suggest some “guest columns” from some of the more prolific and insightful commentors I’ve read on this blog? Maybe just sharing their stories in more detail. Just a thought.
Anyway, it’s lovely to meet you all. I am looking forward to more revelations and insights about myself coming from reading Lwl. As far as the nuggets I have received from Lwl, it’s more like multiple lightning bolt strikes of realizations. I am most grateful for the vocabulary and scaffolding Dr. L has given for discussing and understanding limerence.
Welcome to LwL Penelope,
Very interesting story. We would like to hear more from you and share yours insights with us. Like you, I found a meaning to my “ailment “ that was driving me crazy. It’s nice to at least know that what’s happening to you has a name, and a web site to share with like people, some one who understands limerence.
Best wishes and keep in touch.
Hi all,
I missed a lot of posts, just wanted to give my two cents to the book update and then also write something unrelated since this is a coffeehouse.
I‘m sure somebody wrote that already, but for me the most important thing to learn here was that limerence was something that had foremost to do with me, the person I am, the voids I have to fill, and not foremost with LO.
In my first LEs I thought fate struck and I met a very special person, destiny, whatever.
That’s maybe because I was limerent for my SO and I married him and he‘s still the prince of my life. It fitted every fairy tale.
So, when this kind of limerent feeling struck again, I thought it must have a similar import, that I met a similarly important person etc.
Through LwL I learned that yes, I met special persons and I liked them very much, but the part where obsession and intrusive thoughts and addiction started, this part had nothing to do with these persons and all with me.
Which gives me the power to change it.
Also, I wanted to tell you that I met LO2 today (the LO before current one- he also left my workplace after being a colleague of mine, and I‘m very sure not necessarily that he was limerent, I don‘t think if he’s the limerent type, but he definitely had a major crush, but since I’m married and also quite a lot older, I was always out of bounds) after not seeing him for a long time, and it was heartwarming and a very nice evening, I still love him very much because he really is one of the most special persons I know, but I‘m not limerent anymore at all, I just enjoy him.
He told me that his girlfriend is pregnant, something nobody knows yet, I know he told me because he still regards me as one of the nicest and trustworthy persons in his life, and I‘m so happy for them! I felt no desire whatsoever, I just thought how special he is and how much I want to see him happy, without any other thought.
I just post this because yes, in this case I managed to turn the limerence into friendship, something that gets doubted here all the time.
It was probably only possible because he moved away, but still, we made it.
In matters of current LO, the working week with him was very difficult. I couldn’t interact with him in work freely and I was very sad overall.
I had this party on the last evening, he stayed quite long (given that he usually leaves parties early) and when he left we talked outside for a while with hugs and kisses on the cheek of the non-sexual but loving type (interesting discussion, this!).
I felt that it is possible to love him very much without all this rumination crap, basically without all that is bad about limerence. Limerence is so selfish. It wants and wants. I sometimes have a glimpse of how it could be- that I love this person without wanting for myself. For a while I could see how I could love him without wanting to get closer to him and also love him including all that belongs to him, his SO and kid and his decision to leave, if he leaves.
It is elusive, sure, it slowly fades, but I try to hold on to that feeling.
Maybe that’s also why I didn’t feel like posting.
Dear Mila,
“It is elusive, sure, it slowly fades, but I try to hold on to that feeling. Maybe that’s also why I didn’t feel like posting.”
You have been wise to stay away from us here. Working things through in your own mind just takes some time by oneself (for me anyway). I have also been more silent that usual and its is helping me with some things. less thoughts about LO, less obsessive checking LwL, sleeping better, ….
At the same time, I can feel the wistfulness off your post. I relate very much to feeling a bit sad. Sometimes it’s all just a bit much – I think the end of limerence is something that we can mourn and I am certainly feeling this way myself right now. If we accept that it’s all about us (not the LO), then we see that, at the end of limerence we are coming back to reality*, coming down off our self-induced cloud – but also in the good sense – there are fewer limerence pains and anguish.
*The key issue is what our reality is for us and whether we can we enhance that.
I do not doubt that you can do this as pure ‘friendship’, it’s just the intensity which needs to be reduced in order for it to be healthy for you.
Sending a hug.
Thanks Bewitched!
I just had this glimpse how I could keep my intense feelings without getting obsessive, just love someone without urgency. I have this glimpse from time to time in general- it’s this benevolent, happy and encompassing feeling for my fellow humans, and for some persons just in a more intensified form.
But then I lose it again because of my insecurities etc.
Speaking of insecurities, I’m currently working as a guest in another town, and although I‘m doing a good job and everyone is being nice, there is one bit I‘m not so good at, a tiny thing (sorry, don’t want to name my job), and this tiny bit eats my whole confidence away.
So I‘m bogged down in trying to solve this and not thinking about LO, which should be a good thing, but I‘m kind of exasperated with myself that in my age I still cannot shake off these insecurities (I only mess this bit up because I’m insecure about it. )
It’s something LO is very good at. I wish I had some of his calm competence.
„ I think the end of limerence is something that we can mourn and I am certainly feeling this way myself right now.“
When I have this feeling I described, I feel that this is the way not having to mourn.
Maybe I delude myself just because I’m scared of the pain of mourning, it’s possible.
Are you at the end of limerence, Bewitched?
Mila, I want to give you some encouragement. Maybe there is one skill that you can improve, but you can do your job well anyway. It’s okay to be imperfect. Everyone is imperfect. Can I share a story?
My church choir sang a number that our choir director wrote as a national anthem for a budding country. That song was too advanced for a church choir. It is a beautiful number, but the first soprano notes are crazy high. I could hit those notes as long as I could hear the other first soprano. On my own, I didn’t sound so good, but with her, we nailed those notes and it sounded quite lovely. I felt inferior. I felt like the other first soprano should do the song on her own. But here’s the thing, it’s not a “choir” without multiple voices. So even though her voice was more polished than mine, I was still needed. I’m glad that I didn’t give up. I got recruited for some other high soprano parts including some solos after we sang that number. My confidence is not good, but the feedback that I get is quite good so maybe I’m underestimating myself. Maybe you are underestimating yourself, too. You are the person who is doing the job. You can do it! You got this! I believe in you, Mila!
Another story…
When I was a new foster mom, I was completely overwhelmed. My kids’ behavior problems were difficult. I questioned if I was the best foster mom for them. One particularly rough day, my SO and I hid in our car to have a private conversation. I said, “I can’t do this. It’s bigger than me.” My SO asked, “If not you, then who? Who would be a better fit for the kids?” I thought about it and replied, “Jesus?” I couldn’t think of anyone who could do a better job than me except Jesus. Then with renewed confidence, I said, “Jesus isn’t available so this is my job. I’ll do it.”
You can do it, Mila! Whatever you’re struggling with, it’s just a growth opportunity.
Mila,
“I have this glimpse from time to time in general- it’s this benevolent, happy and encompassing feeling for my fellow humans, and for some persons just in a more intensified form.“
That’s a Buddhistic nature — Compassion/Love, residing in all of us, it’s always there. Let’s try together to bring it out of us more…
🫂
Hi Mila, I’m also working away, which can be a good distraction. I understand you need to reflect and process. posting here isn’t always a priority or the right thing to do at that time for you. I’m a bit in and out on lwl sometimes too , as you noted 😀. It can sometimes feel a little overwhelming to read and answer lots of new messages, even though they are nice and supporting.
It seems your LE is evolving and that’s good – ie not getting stuck in a washing machine of limerence. A step change is I think needed instigated by ourselves or external forces. Your last week, sounded quite challenging and some sadness.
You should be proud you stepped straight into your guest week after that difficult week. I think some sensitive honest personality types and often females underplay our strengths and don’t b#llsh*t our way on the stuff we aren’t as good at. That’s my experience anyway. None of us can be great at everything or else you and me would be doing a very different job and probably rich n famous ! I try to improve my weak areas at work but acknowledge they will probably always be my weak areas. Other replies you have had are really great too!!
Be confident in your red. Best wishes
Hey Mila,
I wouldn’t say that I am at an end of limerence but I seem to have deprogrammed myself – just a bit. I never looked into the ’emergency deprogramming’ of Dr L (even though, goodness knows I went through a very intense period wen that might have been helpful). But, I think that’s what as happened maybe? I think I told you that over a number of weeks, since maybe mid january, I was consciously thinking of my LO in more ‘balanced’ fashion and noticing their limitations more. I also tried to divert my mind away from so much pleasant memory curation and reverie. I then was working with my LO a lot recently and they drove me a bit mad. I really think they come up short in so many ways. So maybe I am out of it, a bit, but I haven’t seen them in person for ages so this is the litmus test for me because I pick up on what he is giving out. If he gives out less (because he has grown tired of it, say), I might actually be out of the woods.
[I know, I know, I should not let him dictate my moods / emotions!!!].
So, I would say that I am good, sleeping better, ruminating less, but also on less of a cloud… Its okay but I might need a major new and invigorating hobby. And lets see how I do when I set eyes on him.
Dear Lovisa,
“One particularly rough day, my SO and I hid in our car to have a private conversation. I said, “I can’t do this. It’s bigger than me.” My SO asked, “If not you, then who? Who would be a better fit for the kids?” I thought about it and replied, “Jesus?” I couldn’t think of anyone who could do a better job than me except Jesus. Then with renewed confidence, I said, “Jesus isn’t available so this is my job. I’ll do it.”
I love this. Its a proper ability to look at the big picture. You guys are awesome to do it, not once, but every day. It is insanely unselfish and I wanted to tell you that I really admire you x
Hi Lovisa,
Thank you so much.
I really love your personal examples and I feel sublimely supported.
I know what you are trying to tell me is true, I‘m just angry with myself that at my age and after all I achieved I still lack the confidence not to be vexed and doubt all my abilities by this single thing I did imperfectly …
I‘ll think of all of you tomorrow and do better, or even better, will do my best but won’t care so much.
Hi Snow,
Yes, it is kind of a spiritual thing, I’m usually not spiritual or religious, but there’s some truth in this all-encompassing love thing…as I said, from time to time I snatch a glimpse that that it’s the right way.
Dear Imho,
„I think some sensitive honest personality types and often females underplay our strengths and don’t b#llsh*t our way on the stuff we aren’t as good at.“
So true.
That is the annoying thing: if I were a very self- assured person of the type that’s often male (whom a little bit of self-doubt would do a world of good), there would be no problem. I wouldn’t get the idea that I was not good in the first place, and then I wouldn’t show nerves and mess it up the second time round.
I know all that and still cannot transfer it to reality.
In my anxiety I reached out to some co-workers at my workplace and they gave me such kind and praising reassurance that I‘m very touched, as I am by your words of help.
But still my inner slave-driver sits there and tells me I‘m no good until I get it right tomorrow…
But actually, if I won’t get it right, the world won’t stop to spin round and I‘ll still be alive. So maybe I should just accept that there is a possibility that I will mess it up tomorrow again and who cares? It’s really tiny… and probably no one but me cares… I don’t know.
Hi Bewitched,
So good that you did your own deprogramming!
Even if you might feel thrown back next time you see him in person (if!) it won’t be lost, you will be quicker to return to that reprogrammed state!
When you see him next time face to face, I recommend simply observing- seeing his good and bad sides, seeing the reality of both. You‘ll see that yes, he‘s lovely, and yes, he‘s only human and has dreary sides, and both is ok and nothing to ruminate too much about.
I must say I‘ m more at peace since this week with LO, the week was hard, but it was good to see him for a while, see how he is in real life and feel that there is a real mutual affection. Somehow that helped to quell the ruminations.
You could ask yourself, why does/did LO have that impact on me? Is it maybe only because you love his reaction to myself?
I only say that because I recall your recurrent observation that he reacts adoringly to your presence. Is this kind of validation the key thing that makes him so special in your eyes?
Anyway, I’m still of the opinion that a reality check can lead to good results in quelling limerence, opposed to the NC theory.
I‘m very tired and might write nonsense, sorry.
I also made a much too long voice message to LO (who’s already asleep)because he asked me how it’s going here. If there’s someone who knows the self-doubt triggered by tiny failures, it’s him. But I already know that he won’t be half as reassuring as my colleagues or you;)…
Thank you all! I cannot thank you enough. It’s so heart warming to read your supportive messages at the end of the day.
Bewitched,
“If we accept that it’s all about us (not the LO), then we see that, at the end of limerence we are coming back to reality*, coming down off our self-induced cloud – but also in the good sense – there are fewer limerence pains and anguish.“
I can strongly resonate with your insight here, so well said!
Sending you 🫂 (I’m in the middle of proctoring midterm exam)
Heya Snowpheonix,
How are you my stoic friend?
I am very interested in your ‘glimmer’ conversations with Marcia. Its really very interesting to read about your self awareness of the new ‘Romeo’ in your life and the old LO/sensor, who seemed to have added so much by being a (non-judgemental?) wall to bounce ideas off for 7 years. I am crossing all my fingers and toes for you that you find a lovely new position and lots of lovely new students to keep you happy and enthusiastic.
Peace! x
Dear Bewitched,
Thank you for your caring message! I’m feeling tired and a bit anxious, since a lot was going on here with job interview, demo-lesson, midterm, and my private lessons online or in person. .
“Its really very interesting to read about your self awareness of the new ‘Romeo’ in your life and the old LO/sensor, who seemed to have added so much by being a (non-judgemental?) wall to bounce ideas off for 7 years“
I’m interested in checking and watching how this new Glimmer is affecting my mind and heart. In all my previous LEs, I neither knew nor understand its mysterious power. Now, with so many nuggets of LwL, I want to see how it works on a life-time limerent like me, who is also from the East with a somewhat different set of mindset and traditions. However, this keen awareness and constant analysis of my emotions orbiting this glimmer seem to rein or reduce their strength or tendency to slip into an infatuation or anywhere?
Despite LO #7 is a Sensor, I have to be fair to say he’s very non-judgmental (I don’t know much about his moral stands, he’s quite private as he claimed). I used to assume that he was snobbish with his rank and cultural knowledge, but gradually learned that he not only looks soft/friendly/charming, but also good with people/students (despite being insecure, wanting “to be liked”). Men and women of all professional ranks seem to like chatting with him or dumping their complains to him , he always listened more attentively and patiently with “humbly” smiles.
That’s why I grew “bold” to express or monologue all sorts of things (at beginning very afraid of being judged or mocked), dumping out my new and old stresses. In the earlier years, I expected some responses and he did superficially. Later after those “misunderstandings”, he still assured me that I could text/email him anytime if it could “help you” (he’s not experienced with psychotherapies). By experiences, we all know differences between speaking to our silent journal and to another non-judgmental human EAR, whether responsive or silent.
That’s why I was/am grateful regardless he’s Senior or Narc. Focus on a matter itself, one at a time, not on doer(s) is one of my ongoing goals for mentality practice.
My COO stresses the virtue to be always thankful to one’s “benefactors”, even others side did not meant it ( eg. a thief during his stealing act incidentally saved a life on or helped someone in need on the spot) This is one of reasons that I feel sad that LO is going to physically disappears from my life.
I’ve been reading your posts to learn how you express your emotions, surging or ebbing. I tend to rationalize matters too much, which automatically “block” my complex and often muddled feelings.
I hope you continue feeing at peace….
Hi Mila,
Just checking-in.
A while ago, you said “for me the most important thing to learn here was that limerence was something that had foremost to do with me, the person I am, the voids I have to fill, and not foremost with LO.”
Because this is also true for me at the moment, I am thinking aloud about the things that can fill the limerence void. What I have come up with is
a) focusing on other relationships – really listening to others in my life enjoying them.
b) focussing on myself, my health (first and foremost), my appearance, looking after how I look, etc.
c) getting my fill of art and music to fill the liminal space left from LO musings
I decided to list these things out in case they are useful to you or some of the others who are trying to escape limerence and coming to the end of it (hopefully).
Personally I do not feel in danger of falling into another LE, I feel very wary and uninterested in that. But I know that you and others fret about this a bit. I think if you do, its all the more important to fill the void in whatever way works for you.
Summer is here, which helps 🙂
Did I really say that, I was so wise 😅but not wise enough to follow my own advice!
While a) is a good idea, I think b) is the most important for me, I need to find a contentment with myself without needing others for validation.
Having the center of balance in myself.
I think I could manage not to slip into another LE because now I know the signs and reasons. I stopped immediately pursuing contact with the glimmery colleague on my trip because I recognized the signs. In the past I just thought I‘d met another soulmate etc…
I sent something to LO yesterday because it was just too good not to send (some joke related to his trip) and do agree with myself that its ok that I have done that;) because I don’t want icy relations or come across sulking , basically widening out the drama to him that is only in my head alone. Didn’t react on his reaction though.
I still struggle a bit with readjusting my picture of him, sometimes I slide back to believing he might be hurt by my behavior or think about me much, looking for an explanation , sometimes I think he‘s all insensitive and doesn’t think of me at all – both isn’t true, I guess.
I‘ll have to text again today and ask about the final decision of his new company because I know today is the day and it would really letting him down not to be interested in that. Will congratulate him of course.
But I‘m still not clear with myself if I shouldn’t tell him a mild version of what was bothering me. Not today but when we meet, or in a few days. Just for me, to feel clear and having explained. I‘m somehow not the person to let things just go on fakely. Is there a word fakely? Maybe not 😂
When is this ominous dinner at your LOs place, soon? Or has it already taken place?
“I need to find a contentment with myself without needing others for validation.”
Mila
I had a hard time sleeping last night, after I ate something. Turned off the TV and put my phone down, but couldn’t sleep. I was restless and unsettled for some reason. My wife found me outside on our porch in the 40F or so degree weather asleep on the porch. She brought me into the house and covered me and settled me in. That was about 2am. My alarm goes off for work at 5:30am. In the span of that short time I had a dream about Lady Friend. We were walking behind my brother and sister in law in the city and she said “Adam if I had you as a husband I wouldn’t have an ex-husband.” She smiled at me as we walked and I in that moment forgot about all my human inadequacies. You ladies are gonna be the death of me long before alcohol ever has the chance.
The care my wife took to settle me in despite being cantankerous and the validation an imaginary conversation gave me …..
Adam,
I‘m sorry you slept bad and you really have an angel in Momma to realize where you were and getting you inside!
well, I didn’t mean we could live completely without others all by ourselves on a lonely island. Of course we need human warmth and help and there’s nothing bad about accepting and valuing it.
I‘m just a bit worried about you slipping into another LE for your Lady Friend, to be honest…
Maybe don’t go there too much in your thoughts for validation and nice feelings.. you could form a new habit and then the whole mess starts again!
Hi Mila,
Actually I don’t believe that contacting your LO and showing interest is going to do any harm right now. Your head is obviously getting out of the game of limerence for him (good for you!). Only you know whether it is better to admit what has been going on since your trip (mild version), although I would not do that because it doesn’t achieve anything useful, I think. In my view, not saying anything about that particular thing is certainly not ‘fake’, its more about maintaining some boundaries. But perhaps it irks you that he thinks you’re upset by his decision, which is the wrong conclusion and you want to tidy that up? Consider that, telling him the truth (even mild version) is worse because its basically saying that his personality is lacking, something that he can’t control anyway. Sorry if this is blunt, I’m sure you would be more diplomatic…maybe a better reason not to tell him the truth is in case you regret it later, for whatever reason. But I realise that people have regrets for all sorts of different reasons and that calculation might look very different for you.
The thing with my LO is not for a while, so I am not thinking about it. Although I am giving strong consideration to stopping all work with him since I have quite a lot of autonomy in my role at work and I could manage to finagle (new word!) that. I am definitely in the ‘quit’ phase of this LE. Its not particularly pleasant but it is oddly empowering (don’t you think? Do you feel that too?).
Bewitched,
„ because its basically saying that his personality is lacking“
Haha, but it’s the truth 😂
No I wouldn’t go into his general personality, I would limit it to his specific behavior, I mean not telling me about his decision while he promised to tell me.
And I have to say yes, it irks me that he might think I’m that unfair to sulk about his decision. Sometimes I think I would regret that more than stating the real cause.
But then I would have to work to phrase it really in the right words that get to him without insulting him and at the moment I don’t have the energy for that.
And my picture of him hasn’t really „settled“. I don’t know if it’s worth it or not. I‘ll just wait a bit.
„Its not particularly pleasant but it is oddly empowering (don’t you think? Do you feel that too?).“
Yes I do! We get control over our moods and life back that we gave away.
Ok, I didn’t know how far this event was away. But you sound definitely in control! I feel it too- I’m not dependent any more if he reacts on my texts or not, if he takes initiative or not.
I do have slips but always get back on track quickly.
Of course I’m on heavy distraction duty, for example refreshing this site much too often, but it helps me.
Dear Adam,
I have been mulling saying this for a couple of weeks – I am also a little bit worried you will fall into a new LE with your Lady Friend – now I am finally saying something because you’ve actually had a dream with her in it. Sorry if this feels harsh, my friend, I can almost feel your rumination levels going up through the computer and I worry about you falling again. Mila has also picked up on this…
You have so much love to give, I always think that’s like your defining characteristic. Give it to Momma and the boys, and maybe get a new object of affection since one of the boys has left the nest – a goldfish, a cat (*ducks in case MJ is reading*), I hesitate to say ‘dog’ as they are so much work. You would have a way worse time if you fell for this latest damsel in distress because she is family friend and it would be crossing new and more distressing boundaries for everyone. The fact that you are an ‘open book’ doesn’t help because it seems that others can see exactly what’s happening. Get something else to replace that urge? Some of the blogs on warding off limerence might be good to revisit as well.
Peace and love, Bx
Hi, DrL,
It’s probably way late for this but, if not, I recommend you check out:
https://www.amazon.com/write-usable-manual-Professional-writing/dp/0894950525
It’s a great book. It’s old and would be dated to what it’s subject matter was but the process still holds. I kept a copy at work until I loaned it out and it never came back.
Most useful bit of info: that I should go completely NC. It was hard but it’s 100% working and I feel so much better for doing that. Don’t even think I’m limerent any more. Which is great!
What I’d like to learn: how can I protect myself from this ever happening again? I don’t want to put barriers up to friendship with men but I also never want to go through this again.
So happy for you, Gemma! I knew you could do it 🩵
Hi Dr. L,
I think I’m different from most others here. For me:
1. Less a nugget and more of a boulder, which may not be what you’re looking for. I recently had my first limerent episode and also my first foray into psychology and mental health. So for me, not only learning what limerence is, but also learning about things maybe others know, such as attachment styles and the Myers-Briggs personality types. I was oblivious to their existence and now it has me slightly more informed.
2. Selfishly, I wish the book would touch on the grey area of someone such as myself. Clearly I can be susceptible to limerence, because it happened to me, but at the same time, this is the first time I can think that I have had that feeling (I’m a midlifer). I am not prone to limerence, particularly the despondent side of the lows. Sure, I’ve had light crushes/fantasies, but they were always pleasant asides and neither euphoric nor debilitating, unlike my recent LE. Your first book seems to differentiate between limerents and non-limerents, but I wonder how many of us are in between.
As this is my first post I also wanted to thank you for your insight into this phenomenon. You helped me immensely. It’s crazy how much of my despair was assuaged almost immediately by learning what limerence is and what I was experiencing wasn’t love. Whew!
Invalid Username
Mid life seems to be a commonality, at least with men, when it comes to limerence. And one that I can relate to as well. And I don’t think I am prone to limerence either. No woman in my 46 years (save maybe one gal back in my 20’s) has ever effected me in a way that was completely overwhelming to the point that it had a negative effect on my life.
There are quite a few limerents here (some one timers some with multiple LEs) that are midlifers too. And most of them with younger LO’s like my exLO. It seems to be a common factor for men. Along with a lot of midlifer’s LOs being co-workers. If you stick around I think that you will find that you will have a lot in common with some regular posters here. So welcome to the community and we hope you can find what you are looking for here.
Thank you for the warm welcome and for the knowledge that I’m not alone in this. From most of my limited reading, I felt that I was the odd one out since most limerents seem to have ongoing struggles and a multitude of LOs/LEs. Like you, in hindsight, I may have had a LO/LE back when I was in my early 20s, but the relationship ended and I moved on (being dismissive avoidant has its benefits).
This time . . . it’s certainly different and unique. I’m not out of the woods yet, but I’m on the cusp. At least the soul-churning despair is all but gone. With that said, I haven’t interacted with my LO since discovering it’s limerence, not love. I’m not looking forward to that.
Hi Invalid Username,
I also had only one LE (my current one). I think I was close once or twice, but thise were really more like prolonged crushes. In many cases, i ended up dating my crush and things never developed into the soul elevating / destroying intensity that we’ve all experienced. So ADam is right – some of us share that with you.
I am in midlife and was very stressed when limerence hit me.
All best wishes!
1. Just the existence of limerence as a concept has been big for me, having just discovered it this week. I now have a word from my recent woes. Thank you.
As background, I have been mostly happily married for 30+ years, albeit without in-marriage sex for most of it. Never talked about it, never got therapy. So, maybe because of that, maybe because of something else, I acted out. Paid for oral sex. Many times. Quick, transactional with no intimacy. Can’t really say what the trigger was but I would find myself out cruising. Finally broke that habit, and have mostly broken a later substitute porn habit. Despite this cheating and longing, I never had what I consider to be a real affair. Recently, however, I retired. With time on my hands, I found a woman seeking an arrangement. We became friends, seeing each other often. No sex. Some financial support. All secret. My wife has no clue. I wanted a proper, regular, intimate, sexual FWB or GFE affair, never having had one. But this woman, who describes herself as a sex worker, won’t have sex with me. It’s a bit infuriating tbh. She is complicated. Still, I find her creeping into my thoughts in an unhealthy way. I’m constantly thinking of her (what can I text her to make her smile, what’s she doing now, when will I see her next, how is her pet bunny doing, who else is she dating, etc.). We recently did something I thought would get us across the intimacy line, but nothing came of it. At that point, I thought why I am I doing this to myself. This so-called relationship is so unbalanced, meaning so much to me and so little to her. It’s sucking up cash, energy, emotional capital and certainly not doing my SO relationship many favors (although there has been some strange and unexpected rekindling there but minimal). Yes, there’s some enrichment, but mostly it seems unhealthy. Risky and unsustainable. But I still like so much about it. So, I was really pleased to find this site, which seems to be closely related to what I’ve experienced.
2. In terms of what I’d love to know most, as a newbie to this topic as I’m sure most of your readers will be, is the following:
– What about me caused me to be susceptible to this madness and how could I have prevented being so vulnerable?
– At what point is it unhealthy and how do you know? Because mine seemed OK to start and then snowballed into obsession.
– What are you supposed to do to get healthy again from this while you are in the thick of it? I suspect this can’t be the same for everyone. I feel like there’s a chance I can dial down my obsession and still be friends with this LO, my first. Is that naive? I see a lot of recommendations to quit the LO and move on. Is that really the best advice? Why?
– If I were to get therapy to help me process this, what would that look and feel like? How would it go?
– Tell my SO about this? I think a chapter on that is essential because my own feeling on it is no, never. It would ruin my marriage, whereas I have an OK marriage despite what you might think. And I can work on it to make it better. But telling my SO would end it. I know my SO.
I think that’s most of what I’d want to learn. Until the book arrives, I’ll keep reading on the site. Thanks for all the work that has gone into it.
If anyone has feedback on my situation outlined above, I would be grateful. I know this thread is about the book, but I wrote down my experience partly hoping you LE experts might give me some needed advice. Thanks.
Hi Evan, not sure I would call myself an expert but I do have some thoughts about what you are experiencing and your questions.
First, a sexless marriage seems like it is very fertile ground around here for falling into limerence. It only makes sense, we crave intimacy and physical intimacy is a huge part of a long lasting romantic partnership. I think you are simply craving to have both emotional and physical intimacy with the same person and not have sex just be transactional.
Limerence feeds and thrives on uncertainty. Your LO is keeping you filled with uncertainty. It makes you crave her. She is providing enough attention to keep you hooked. But the good news is, you have discovered this too and are ready to take action.
Generally speaking, being friends with an LO is very difficult. Dr L has a blog post on it. For one, it keeps the false hope alive and two, it’s not a real reciprocal friendship. You will always be in pursuit mode with this person. I have tried being on friendship terms with my LO but it always backfires on me. It just causes me more distress and invasive romantic thoughts than I care to have.
Most Limerents who have kicked limerence will swear that No Contact is the only real way to get out of an LE. You may want to consider ending any and all contact with LO to help your mind heal up. It will be tough at first, you will miss her, but take baby steps and you should get through it. I can’t be NC with mine but I practice very limited contact with her.
Last, telling your SO is very a divided thing here at LwL. Some swear by it, others like myself will never. It’s a cost/benefit thing. Only you can determine if it is worth it. I have not because my relationship with my SO is very good, I am actively managing my LE, and I don’t need to lay this burden on her. You may feel the same or you may want to tell her so you both can tackle your issues together as a team with her support if she is willing to give it.
Keep reading blog posts and comments. So many good stories and advice filtered throughout.
Thank you so much, Speedwagon. This was very helpful and this in particular really resonated to me: ” I think you are simply craving to have both emotional and physical intimacy with the same person and not have sex just be transactional.” That is absolutely what I wanted, invested heavily in it, had moments of joy to be sure, but ultimately came up short on the goal. It has left me doubting my ability to ever have that, as well as triggering past memories of similar frustration. LO never overpromised or misrepresented. I accept that it’s all on me. Thanks again.
Evan
“– What about me caused me to be susceptible to this madness and how could I have prevented being so vulnerable?”
My guess is it was the lack of intimacy in your marriage. You have admitted that you have sought out other women for physical intimacy. But that is not the only kind of intimacy. If you wife is emotionally distance with intimacy too than no doubt LO sparked in you a flame that has been diminished. An emotional connection, I think, can be a lot more intense than a physical connection. Your idealization of her is quite common in limerence. Wanting to know everything about her and what she is doing is familiar. Still after a year and half of no contact there are still some days that I wonder how she is.
“– At what point is it unhealthy and how do you know? Because mine seemed OK to start and then snowballed into obsession.”
For me I could start seeing it was getting unhealthy when others around me noticed my behavior. My other fellow co-workers would tease me about having a crush on her. “Well Adam we all know you have a crush on her.” Because in limerence you don’t see your own behavior the way that other people do. Even my dear wife suspected something was going on with exLO and she had never met or talked to her once. She saw it through my behavior and words. As some have called it “leaking your limerence”.
Intrusive thoughts are also another good sign. Depending on whether you are in contact with LO or not, when your mind cannot focus because you are always thinking of LO is probably the summit of the obsession. The “limerent brain” takes over the “executive brain” and the ability to focus on tasks at hand and you start “leaking your limerence”. Those are still a battle I have even after all this time. Sometimes all it can take is something random that reminds me of her and I have quickly focus to put the thought out before it turns into rumination.
“– What are you supposed to do to get healthy again from this while you are in the thick of it? I suspect this can’t be the same for everyone. I feel like there’s a chance I can dial down my obsession and still be friends with this LO, my first. Is that naive? I see a lot of recommendations to quit the LO and move on. Is that really the best advice? Why?”
Sometimes to get healthy it takes hitting rock bottom. It was for me. But I think acceptance is the best step to start. Accepting that this is limerence, an altered state of mind. Not the euphoria of love, which it can sometimes feel like. Not this bliss that makes you forget the world and dwell on this angel of a woman. Once you can accept that you can start to move forward.
Some people suggest devaluing your LO. I personally think that is cruel and not fair as for the most part most LOs are innocent in this exchange that is limerence. But you can certainly start pulling her down from the pedestal she is on in your mind. Try to rationalize her rather than idealize her. See her as the imperfect human that she is. Recognize the faults she has just like we all do. This helped me greatly to distance her from my mind and go on living.
I can’t speak for you in this regard. But at one time I hoped that exLO and I could remain friends after she left the job. But I soon realized that, for me anyway, that wasn’t possible. (Ironically right now as I type this “Don’t Expect Me To Be Your Friend” by Lobo is playing on a mix that youtube suggested me. Not a song I picked myself.) But I do not think that it is completely impossible. There are several posters here who are in a situation where they can’t go no contact and have to be in the presence of their LO daily. So some other posters could be much more qualified to answer that question than me.
For the most part no contact and distancing yourself from LO is the best as, for some, like me, it an all or nothing. Like how people can quit drinking cold turkey. For some that is the only way to do it rather than ween yourself away. In my case, I was fortunate that exLO made that decision for me even if it was unknowingly. But had that not been the case the revelation of limerence would have forced me to greatly distance myself from her if not leave the job myself so that the limerence wasn’t perpetuated. I am not saying that all cases merit complete no contact but it does seem to have a good tract record for limerents that have boundaries like marriage.
“– If I were to get therapy to help me process this, what would that look and feel like? How would it go?”
I can’t speak on this too much but I do know of some people that have sought out therapy for limerence only to find that a lot of therapist don’t know the concept of it. So therefore can’t be much help to a limerent. But I think that therapy for the underlying issue(s) of WHY the limerence happened can be good to overcoming this altered state of mind.
“– Tell my SO about this? I think a chapter on that is essential because my own feeling on it is no, never. It would ruin my marriage, whereas I have an OK marriage despite what you might think. And I can work on it to make it better. But telling my SO would end it. I know my SO.”
You know your SO. So correct only you can decide this one way or another. I disclosed to my wife out of lack of choice really. As I mentioned earlier in this post she already suspected something extra marital with exLO so in my case it was a way to face the issue, address it, and then make amends. But only you know if that suit fits your situation.
I hope that you find some answers for your limerence here Evan. This is a wonderful community that I would never have gotten past that limerent episode if it were not for them. This site gave me the courage to confront my wife after six months of rumination after exLO left the job. You are in good hands here.
Thanks so much, Adam. I’ll be coming back to your comments often as I work through this. I’m going to see if I can stay friendly with LO. Now that my fantasy of something better is dead, I am hoping I can unwind the obsession, clear the invasive thoughts and just enjoy what there is to enjoy, with no regrets. Easier said than done, but I may as well try — with NC as the fallback if any LE symptoms and side effects persist. I also appreciate your comments about therapists. Though they may not know much about limerence, I do feel like figuring out that WHY is long overdue for me, and I’m eager to get started on that work. OK, thanks again. What a great community here!
Yeah, no contact is not always necessary. I was limerent for at least two people who are now close friends. One I was limerent for in college, but he didn’t return it, and we both met other people and got married. We also live in different parts of the state and keep up online, where it’s harder to keep limerence going. Last year I talked with him on the phone and I swear it felt like the old feelings were back, but that only lasted a short time. Another one I see often, but years ago he told me he’s gay, so that obliterated all questions I had about how he felt about me, ending the limerence. Now, I will flirt with him occasionally, and sometimes he’ll post a sexy picture on Instagram that makes my mind reel….But we’re platonic friends, no limerence, lol.
Belated thanks, Serial Limerent. Yeah, I’m going to see if I can stay friends with this person. We’ve had some good times together. But I’ve also written out 11 reasons why it’s not a good relationship lol. I’m using that list to lessen my interest and attraction, and I go to it whenever I start thinking about LO. So, as you can see, I am really on the fence regarding whether to continue. But I figure it’s worth a try to stay friends and get better control of my thoughts. The ultimate test!
Evan hi,
Your situation is very common and it’s not only with limerents. A “dead” bedroom drives the spouse to search outside what they need in the relationship, be it men or women.
Try to use your pent up energy with your SO. That would require some work, like having date nights and starting courting her as when you first met her. At first, she’d probably be surprised of your actions, but reassure her that you love her and would like to have things change in your “dormant relationship “, etc. if need be, see a therapist.
With the LO, be very careful, once you have sex with her you would be hooked and deeper in limerence, for sex tend to bond, and make you addicted. I understand your physical needs , but this LO is an experienced woman and she may like to extortion you economically, as you said she’s wants some sort of arrangement? Maybe that’s why she’s delaying sex, if she’s a sexual worker? And yes, the best way to separate is with No contact. If you keep her as a friend you’ll always be driven back to wanting her, for uncertainty, and the game of pursuing fuels limerence desires. Maybe you want to rescue her? There’s a blog on that on this site. Keep reading the blogs pertaining to your situation and you’ll be surprised how much information you can gather to illustrate you where you’re at. Ultimately, it’s you alone who can make the decisions, no one can make them for you. My two cents as an heterosexual female and with an SO and on NC with LO . It hurts, but the reality of the situation calls for reasoning and ACCEPTANCE of the truth.
Best wishes and good luck.
Hi Nisor, belated thanks for your thoughtful reply. I’m definitely going to keep reading. I have been working on my relationship with my SO, and there is some small progress there. We have always loved each other and are best friends, but as you know it’s hard to keep things interesting for decades and dead bedrooms are no fun at all. Not sure how some people manage it. I’m just glad I found this site and this concept of limerence because it fits what I’ve been going through, i.e. just find myself thinking of LO even when I don’t really want to. I did some reflection on it this past week and I’m now convinced that LO is a proxy for two prior-history failed romance and bedroom experiences. I think I’m using her to try to heal those past failings. Of course, failing again, in the same way, with LO means that plan has completely backfired. Clearly, I need to find a therapist and process all of this lol. Anyway, thanks again.
Hi Evan
“ Convinced that LO is a proxy for a prior-hystory failed romance and bedroom experiences. I think I’m using her to try to heal those past feelings.”
“Convinced”, that’s a strong assessment! And it’s a possibility, yes, LO is a proxy for your past experiences. Only you and your therapist can make a conclusive assessment on that, and put you on a road to healing and saving your marriage.
Meanwhile, work in your marriage; surprise SO with flowers, when you see her close by in the house, extend your arms wide open and call her to get closer, if she does that means she is not afraid of intimacy, she wants to break the ice, wrap her up in your arms and whisper something sweet in her ears. Don’t insinuate sex for that would spoil everything. Just make little gestures of affection every day until she feels confident again next to you. Maybe she’s starved for those gestures of cuddling, intimacy and feeling appreciated, and is waiting for you to initiate something, small signs of love every day until you notice she’s secured in your arms, then proceed further in due time…. Don’t rush anything, easy does it…
Are you seeing the therapist alone at first? I think it’s a good idea to do that and show the therapist your post to LwL , so as to avoid wasting of time and money. That’s if you want to do so. You think about it. We just want you to be yourself and happy again in your marriage, living a purposeful life and enjoying it to its fullest, in bed and every corner of your life; away from limerence!
Good day to you.
Hi Evan,
Like you, I’m completely new to this. One thing that helped me and answers a lot of your questions, was reading Dr. L’s first book, Living with Limerence: https://livingwithlimerence.com/lwl-book/
I suggest picking it up and giving it a read. It’s quite short, but covers basically everything you mentioned in your #2 questions.
Thanks. Will check it out.
I would love more information about dealing with intrusive thoughts. From my reading of comments throughout this blog, it seems to be a topic of huge concern here.
The most useful thing I’ve learned so far from LwL (and am still testing with my own experience) is that the intrusive thoughts caused by limerence originate in a different region of the brain than thoughts caused by OCD and other compulsions. Whereas OCD thoughts (often fear-and-disaster related) can best be alleviated by simply “letting them be,” not engaging with or trying to chase them away, intrusive thoughts caused by limerence need to be actively overwritten (e.g., by devaluation of LO) while distancing oneself from their source (any reminder of LO). Dr. L lays it all out in his post on “Relationship OCD”: https://livingwithlimerence.com/relationship-ocd/
This was eye-opening to me. As I’ve put it into practice (especially the devaluation part), I’ve found much more relief than by using the typical advice of “allowing” intrusive thoughts to just be there and trying not to engage with them. Thank you!!
“I have two specific questions:
1. What’s the most useful nugget of wisdom you’ve discovered on LwL?
2. What would you most like to learn about in the book?”
I am not really sure how to answer these two questions…
Yes, it’s helpful to know limerence is an altered state. Yes, it’s helpful to know limerence is infatuation rather than love. Yes, it’s helpful to know that certain chemicals in the brain are responsible for the ups and downs of limerence. Yes, limerence is connected to sexuality is some incredibly subtle way that to this day I can’t explain. (Is the pleasure of successful pair-bonding greater than the pleasure of mere sexual engagement with a willing party?) I don’ think I could settle on just one nugget of wisdom.
What I’ve discovered since the end of limerence is that one’s emotions remain intact. In other words, one doesn’t turn into a zombie or a robot or Mr Spock from Startrack Enterprises. If one hears a sad song, for example, one still feels sadness. If one hears a happy song, on the other hand, one still feels happiness. But the joy/sadness is unrelated to LO.
Post-limerence, the quality of the sadness/happiness seems different: noticeably less intense, like some huge invisible weight on one’s shoulders has been lifted. I call limerent ups “hormonal happiness” and I call limerent downs “hormonal sadness” (as opposed to everyday happiness and sadness). Not to go all Lawrentian on people, but certain dark reproductive energies are in play. Take jealousy, for example – jealousy must play a huge and little-understood role in pair-bonding. 🤔😉
I think limerence always involves (emotional) suffering for the limerent – at least until all barriers/sources of uncertainty have been removed. Closure is achieved when the limerent’s brain decides (1) “Okay, a relationship is going to happen” or (2) “Okay, a relationship isn’t going to happen”.
I got closure when my LO admitted (following his divorce) he was limerent as a teenager for the woman he married and he was limerent for her when she too was a teenager. (I.e. he was limerent for another the exact same time I was limerent for him. Therefore, logic dictates he wasn’t limerent for me. I fully accept Tennov’s view that people by definition can have only one LO at a time. (No hope, no uncertainty = case closed). Retrospective analysis has given me back my emotional freedom. But not everyone’s XLO is an exhibitionist who posts indiscreet videos online. 🙄
I don’t like seeing the suffering inherent in limerence downplayed, because I think such downplaying is dishonest and gives the general public the wrong impression, like limerents are a bunch of carefree hedonists or something. If you’re not suffering, you’re not limerent, in my book. Or, at the very least, you’re not a limerent with high support needs.
This is how I see it: limerence is a seesaw. One pays for one’s euphoria with despair. Despair and euphoria are two sides of the same coin. No despair/suffering = no euphoria/intense pleasure. After limerence, one stops experiencing rapture/misery in a really heavy involuntary way, although one might continue to cherish art, music, literature, etc, etc.
I’ve said this before. When I was a highschooler, I used to come home from school, lie on the floor of my bedroom, and just sob into a pillow. I felt so sad and so tired, and crying for extended periods didn’t “lessen the pain”. I’d come home the very next day, still sad, still tired, and repeat the exercise. I didn’t associate these “defeated” feelings with limerence at the time because I didn’t know I was lovesick. I just thought I was a less-than-devout believer and I need to get “closer to God” or some such.
When I was a highschooler, when certain songs played on the school bus radio, I would also tear up. I would experience ecstasy listening to said music. But I would experience sadness simultaneously. (LO nowhere in sight during these moments, btw. Thankfully, he didn’t take the bus).
I think one of those songs was the aptly named “High” by Lighthouse Family. I particularly liked the line: “One day we’re gonna to get so high”. Prophetic, really – although I was already high as a kite on the dream of an impossible love. My senses were greatly heightened. I barely ate or slept. I was always slipping off into reverie at the most inopportune moments. I wandered off for a walk by myself at school camp once, and the teachers thought I was smoking something illicit. (Otherwise why would I be sneaking off to be alone? What normal teenager wants to be alone?) 😜
I think, during limerence, people can also feel like they have a permanent migraine, or something like that. In Art class, I made a Toby jug of Princess Diana. It was a very beautiful jug, and I spent a lot of time on it. But one day I felt bad and I smashed the jug against a concrete path at home, and destroyed the jug. My mother thought I destroyed my jug because I was grieving the death of the beloved late Princess, who had recently passed away under tragic circumstances. But I think I destroyed the jug as a side-effect of unrequited limerence. (Anger at self? Frustration? Misplaced guilt and shame at not being able to “shake this thing”?)
I don’t know what I’d like to learn about in a book about limerence. I think the best thing I’ve learned is that one doesn’t feel desire/jealousy for platonic friends. If one is experiencing a lot of desire/jealousy in relation to another person, then that person is probably viewed in a romantic light. I have found Lucy Bain’s commentary on this subject helpful i.e. don’t befriend someone you adore because it will lead to immense suffering. Such befriending isn’t kind to oneself and it’s also not so kind to LO. 🙂
Yeah, especially if the LE is reciprocated but there are barriers, it’s euphoria mixed with despair because this thing you want is close enough to grasp but you can’t. Or you could, but everything will blow up.
I no longer admire or adore, even despise LO in a few ways, but I still can’t get him, as a human being, out of my mind… something familiar in him still reminds myself, and I feel deeply sad for that bit of unknown (despite the factual history maddens me)…
Although LO neither knows nor cares what I think or how I feel, I can’t help hold a deep care for my own sentiments….
Still unable to emotionally walk away totally from LO, (no longer attracted but saddened by his dimmed eyes)… why is this?
I used to see LO as an idealized, surrogate parent, nowadays a vulnerable, insecure teenager boy.
I have this amount of sadness only for LO#1 and LO#7, both platonic.
LO#1 total emotional reciprocation seemed to have “destroyed” his happiness in the following decade(s)…
I ignorantly and knowingly turned down PA only “reciprocation” from LO#7, whose life appears quite “sunny”. But I still feel deep sadness for him and myself… is this still a part of limerence’s dark imagination/reverie?
But this time I’m tryin to stay with my sadness as long as I can (always ran away from it in the past); otherwise, it will keep coming back to sink me down… (it’s not depression distinctively)
Hi Snow, how are you doing?
I think you feel this sadness because you’re grieving for something that it’s coming to its end … You feel quite vulnerable now, and can see LO #7 for what he is, just another human being you had on a pedestal, now you can perceive him as a normal human with fears
and sadness , vulnerabilities , the same as yours , and anyone else’s. I’m supposing it’s that, don’t know for sure. He must be frightened and pensive for what happened with his job, he has a family to support and is worried about getting a new job. Normal stuff. Also, he may feel sentimental leaving the place and his colleagues and students. Memories of time past. It’s a humbling moment in his life, when sad feelings surface to the mind, maybe, I don’t know the man. May he find a job to his liking fast. And you too.
I’m glad Marcia is talking to you and coaching you on handling “ Romeo”, she makes me laugh a lot with her ideas! hahaha! She gives straight answers, no nonsense .
You stay calm, cool and collected and everything will be alright. Good things come to those who have patience. Courage and Hugs.
Yeah Miss Marcia has a great way of giving it to you straight right out the gate. I found that out really fast after first posting here. I thought “Well damn Adam you managed to offend someone already. She’s never going to talk to you again.” But then I quickly found out that, no, it’s just the way she is. If you want to know her opinion you are going to get it with no filter. 🙂 And that can be a very good thing when it comes to limerence since you are in an altered state of mind and lots of people are looking for justification for limerence more than you are healing.
😊 Dear Nisor,
Thank you for your sweet and caring message.
I’m doing ok in a sense that I’m NOT feeling depressed, but a well of entangled emotions, amid taking new pupils and preparing for the upcoming demo teaching for this job that I don’t really want: it’s a tough school (by rating) with a bunch of undisciplined HS kids. (heard from the colleague who introduced me the possibility)
“I think you feel this sadness because you’re grieving for something that it’s coming to its end … “
It’s definitely true that since very young, I’ve dreaded most of an ending, particularly departing from friends, close relatives, and even my graduating students. Now, a definitive departure with LO, whose EXISTENCE (not realistic LO himself ) and my LE with him have motivated and pushed me onto a never expected self-exploratory & developing journey and an enlightening individuation process. It’s just so sad to face such a forced ending! I’m still avoiding thinking about May 8th (our last final day), but do listen more to sad songs, such as Dinah’s”s “Over Here” — https://youtu.be/JIWjPg-ZTNo?si=pMrb9YiIl92yMSG2. (After listening to it 20 times in a row, I’d feel much less saddened)
“You feel quite vulnerable now, and can see LO #7 for what he is, just another human being you had on a pedestal, now you can perceive him as a normal human with fears and sadness , vulnerabilities , the same as yours , and anyone else’s. “
I think you’ve just nailed that vague sense of familiarity I see in LO #7, #1, #5 — VULNERABILITY, the vulnerability of longing to be loved/liked/admired, validated/accepted just as what one was/is and of fear to be rejected emotionally. You’re right that almost everyone has similar vulnerabilities. Whenever I was deeply submerged in your insightful mind, all I felt was the “universal”/buddhistic love (Mila talked about) for myself, LO (more than for me), xLOs, other people in reality (including Mom occasionally) and limerents ghosts here.
“I’m supposing it’s that, don’t know for sure. He must be frightened and pensive for what happened with his job, he has a family to support and is worried about getting a new job. Normal stuff. Also, he may feel sentimental leaving the place and his colleagues and students. Memories of time past. It’s a humbling moment in his life, when sad feelings surface to the mind, maybe, I don’t know the man. May he find a job to his liking fast. And you too.”
LO tries hard not to look upset or down or frightened, and is eagerly looking for work in his line, which is quite hard (he’s ready to go “down” to HS). I don’t think he’s financially worried since his SO has a steady job also as an established scholar, both his girls have a full scholarship in an elite college (his Alma Mater). At this moment when I’m typing, he’s seeing his secret LO somewhere (every Wednesday is his regular rendezvous time)… Still, he’s losing his career built in almost 20 years and has to re-start at age of 54 (still looking in early 40s). , and I see weary and dimmed light in his eyes and hear even softer voice. His shocking news is still two months old, mine 7 months.
“I’m glad Marcia is talking to you and coaching you on handling “ Romeo”, she makes me laugh a lot with her ideas! hahaha! She gives straight answers, no nonsense”
Marcia is just great in talking no nonsense, and she’s very understanding and funny 😂😂! I spent a lot of time and energy responding her questions and others’ posts here because it helps me organize my entangled thoughts and feel my foggy emotions — I have a habit of suppressing them and escaping into reasoning, which is not a “healthy” way (repressed emotions WILL come back!). It’s sad not to fully feel all emotions and let them organically dissipate, I need much more learning in this regard.
I am quite collected (have to with my tutoring) but experiencing all sort of emotions at daily basis, particularly this butterfly 🦋 buzzing inside: I do NOT know what is going to happen with my mind and heart as the “doomsday” is approaching fast…. (My glimmer does not help at all in this regard, I don’t replace/substitute one human being with another, everyone has her/his special value to me, taking an unique spot in my mind/herat)
No rumination or imagination at for Romeo, the glimmer is very calm. He’s a clean slate at this point, and I keep catching my “fancy” even when just a tiny bit surfaced (during our texting to postpone his class). Nothing I can expect from him yet besides his seemingly determined learning — he “promises” that he will not use Chat GPT to “cheat”. 👍🏼
Sending hugs 🫂 to your way!
Adam,
I feel the same as you about Marcia, her straightforward opinions are very valuable to us softy hearted and muddle headed.
However, I don’t think all informed/learned limerents are looking for justification of their limerence. Whether still in an altered mind or 5/6 legs out of the deep mud pool, we can’t just yank ourselves out in one sword cut. Thoughts and emotions simply do not work that way.
I agree with the new post (by FinallyOvr) that some of us need to go through all limerence emotions, “allowing [one]self to feel EVERY shade of emotion vis a vis LO, without trying to suppress, guilt, deny, etc. “. My biggest mistake was trying to suppress, morally judge, deny, escape… which only made me STUCK in my limerence for 7 years! Unless I let all those shades of emotions “bravely and freely live” their life inside me (not acting them out), my limerence would NOT leave me, I’m quite convinced.
That’s what I was trying to do with Marcia, to feel and name whatever I had felt in the past and current LEs. Once those emotions — unburied ghosts, are acknowledged and validated by another sharp human ear, they immediately reduced their intensity and went their way…
I hope you continue feeling and doing better!
Miss Snowphoniex
I don’t really think the desire for justification for limerence is necessarily intentional or conscious. When I go back and read my old comments (and I do it often to remind myself) that I cannot believe I wrote what I did. It was the ramblings of a mad man. I think if I had anyone I know (no one outside of here knows of my limerence) read what I posted they would have never connected it to me, despite the actual history of my life being present in those comments.
They would probably be like “wow that guy’s marriage sounds a lot like yours” but would never connect my fevered meandering back to me. It’s like “Adam” really is another person. I just needed the clarity from my state of mind to see that. And anonymous people on the internet that have no dog in the fight, unlike family, helped me see that. And I am in no way downplaying the immense support I got from my family getting through this. They just helped in a different way.
I think that’s why limerence seems so insidious to me. It’s like a cancer that slowly grows unknowingly, to you, until it fully metastasizes in you. Some can be saved. And some cannot.
But I will freely admit that I made it worse in the same way you did. The guilt, suppression, denial and moral judgement that I thrust at myself just prolonged it. It’s with the help of this community and love and forgiveness from my family that I have been able to face what I did and accept that it happened and strive to not let it happen again.
Hoping your day’s weather is as beautiful as it is here and that you have a wonderful day.
Hi Friends,
Watching a hideously boring training over Skype for work. The trainer, who is very cute, just mentioned having SIX kids and being married. He was the only thing keeping me awake. Don’t provide me a hunk trainer who’s married with the Brady Bunch! Now I’m even less interested in the training! I’m going to file a complaint with HR. 🙂
Marcia,
Just watching the trainer’s face and indulging a tiny bit of fancy to keep yourself awake!
You need a “naughty project” to stimulate us limerents’ mind!
Hmm…. Romeo’s birthday is coming up in two weeks falling on my tutoring him day. What would be an appropriate congratulatory gift? All I have now is (5) beautiful, thick rice-paper bookmarks bought in Louvre a couple of years ago (I’m not giving him all five!)
As a teacher, I still need to express something to a pupil, right?
Snow,
“Just watching the trainer’s face and indulging a tiny bit of fancy to keep yourself awake!”
He would need to start dancing to “It’s Raining Men” for me to stay awake … I’m so bored. 🙂
“Hmm…. Romeo’s birthday is coming up in two weeks falling on my tutoring him day. What would be an appropriate congratulatory gift? All I have now is (5) beautiful, thick rice-paper bookmarks bought in Louvre a couple of years ago (I’m not giving him all five!)
As a teacher, I still need to express something to a pupil, right?”
Yes, I think giving him one of the bookmarks would be a very nice gesture. A bookmark from the Louvre! Who wouldn’t love that? 🙂
Miss Marcia (and I still pronounce it my way)
What I said is more akin to what LiS said. I had a very strict English teacher in high school. Pencil skirts, blouses, stockings, heels and button satin shirts. Hair, makeup, nails always immaculate. She took no $hit from no one. No talking out of turn. No talking over her. She tolerated no mischief. A slap with a ruler on your desktop to get your attention. And in my days a slap of a ruler on the hand was commonplace and no parents clutched their pearls. I have a great respect for authoritative women.
Disclaimer Miss Marcia I am not sober. But I wanted to explain myself as I took PTO for tomorrow and probably won’t check in till Monday.
Miss Snowphoenix
I always seem to fall for tomboys. To LO to my wife to every woman I have ever dated besides my possible first LO I can’t resist you tomboy gals.
Adam,
“I have a great respect for authoritative women.”
I have been told I would make a good dominatrix. 🙂
But, secretly, all women with tough personalities want someone to dominate them. 🙂
“But, secretly, all women with tough personalities want someone to dominate them. 🙂”
I don’t know if “dominate” is the right term. I agree with the idea that tough women want someone who can look them in the eye and go toe-to-toe with them. I like the idea of being the consort of a powerful woman.
At the height of things, I was so close to asking LO #4, “Have you ever been with a man who wasn’t afraid of you?”
But, I’m smart enough to not ask questions that I really don’t want to know the answers to and that question definitely fell into “What would you do with that knowledge if you had it?” territory.
LE,
“I don’t know if “dominate” is the right term. I agree with the idea that tough women want someone who can look them in the eye and go toe-to-toe with them. ”
Yes, I would agree. Also, someone not afraid to call them on their crap, if necessary.
@Adam
“I always seem to fall for tomboys. To LO to my wife to every woman I have ever dated besides my possible first LO I can’t resist you tomboy gals.”
Then, I can never meet you in person; otherwise, you’d run away out of a disappointment —— I never looked like a tomboy in reality! I was just a paper tiger inside…. Now that tiger gets to roar in LwL land only…
@LE,
“I don’t know if “dominate” is the right term. I agree with the idea that tough women want someone who can look them in the eye and go toe-to-toe with them. I like the idea of being the consort of a powerful woman.”
I like the both ideas! When putting that inner child to sleep, here is a tomboy who likes a consort walking beside her… 😜
@Marcia,
“Yes, I would agree. Also, someone not afraid to call them on their crap, if necessary.”
Yes. Someone could openly admit their mistakes and apologize like a true gentleman.
Snow,
“Yes. Someone could openly admit their mistakes and apologize like a true gentleman.”
Well, yes, but I meant they call YOU on YOUR crap. I don’t want someone kissing my butt. If I’m acting like a moron, have the guts to tell me.
Marcia,
“I meant they call YOU on YOUR crap. I don’t want someone kissing my butt. If I’m acting like a moron, have the guts to tell me.”
Then, It’s two-way traffic! I want to this “calling” to be civil, gentle, knowledgeable on both side; two can feel free and equal to speak up, discuss, and dissolve issues when craps occur. Both sides “serve” as a teacher and a pupil when it’s called for, learn from each other and together, and grow wiser and closer together…
Snow,
“Then, It’s two-way traffic! I want to this “calling” to be civil, gentle, knowledgeable on both side; two can feel free and equal to speak up, discuss, and dissolve issues when craps occur. Both sides “serve” as a teacher and a pupil when it’s called for, learn from each other and together, and grow wiser and closer together…”
Yes. I’ve read some women want the man to treat her like a queen. I don’t want to be a queen. I want to be someone’s equal.
Nisor,
“I think of you as a matured handsome gay man, a gentleman, kind and deep, very decent person, who is mischievous and likes to make jokes. A fun person who is carefree and doesn’t give a damn of what others say about you, even though you are a very sensitive one. “
He did not appear funny, mischievous, carefree at all in my dream where you would meet him in person… He looked deep, tolerant, reserved, sensitive, poised-relaxing and his expression looked like he had just recovered from a big illness, despite his physique was firm. Yet, one could not predict anything that he might do in that huge cosmopolitan city where anything is possible to happen…. I only wished that he’d show up at dinner time to meet you, so to pleasantly surprise both of you…. 😇
“A person I would feel very proud to be next to and enjoy his mischief…”
As an unlucky single child, I always wanted to adopt a big bro/sis, to play 🎾 or 🏓 or 🤺, but he kept spitting fire at me out of blue or his grandpa crankiness…. 🙄 (more fun to break into his room to 😈! )
Images in a draam override all conscious imaginations — a power of Unconscious!
@Marcia
Go ahead and file that complaint with HR, they should at least provide “cute” trainers, single, when the training is boring.
This trainer spoiled your flights of fancy, no, no good at all. Could this be a reason for letting him go? Can he be replaced? hahaha.
Sorry you’re bored with the training . Have a happy day. 💪🏽
Nisor,
Wow, Exotic looking! I wish I could meet you in person soon! {keeping saying it may bring me another dream to see you} I may have a chance to visit Florence next spring, is it close to your place? If so, could I stop by to say “Hollo”?
I’m a bit luckier than Marcia, I’ve got Romeo to train…⚡️😵💫 trying to keep my head cool so it will last longer… Earlier today I texted him to see how he was doing, he said he’s recovered and we’ll resume our session on Monday.
Nisor,
“Go ahead and file that complaint with HR, they should at least provide “cute” trainers, single, when the training is boring.”
I agree. I should at least be given a seat on the Trainer Hiring Committee. I need to see the resumes, with head shots, and a “Skills” section that includes their dancing skills. 🙂
Snow,
“I’ve got Romeo to train…⚡️😵💫 trying to keep my head cool so it will last longer… Earlier today I texted him to see how he was doing, he said he’s recovered and we’ll resume our session on Monday.”
Get that bookmark ready. 🙂 Is Monday his birthday?
I’d like to have one. I think I’ve been a good enough friend to earn a Louvre bookmark. 🙂
Loving this fun interaction conversation !
I visualise many of you!
@Bewitched, I love your summary profile guesses of everyone. you had me mostly correct, except the blond. I do wonder if you live most nearby to me or even work at my same organisation ! Unlikely but you never know.
@Mila. ‘Your’ voice is on android /Google, and not apple ( I checked as I have an iPad too)
Your voice is ‘English UK’ on android/google.
On Apple you can still switch on read aloud or text to speech.
If you go to Settings, Accessibility, Spoken Content, Voices and you can choose your preferred voice there.
Once you have it set, you can highlight text and then choose ‘speak’ and then the text turns to audio. It’s cool !
Marcia,
It’s not on this Monday, but the April Fool’s day.
Of course, I’d give you one of the bookmarks from Louvre. There is water-color painting with a beautifully handwriting calligraphy printed on each bookmark, respectively: “Spring”, “Summer”, “Fall”, “Winter”, “Love” (I keep this one for a future SO), Romeo gets “Spring”, which one of other three you would like to have (close to your birth month)?
If you have your address sent to DrL then to me (you don’t have to tell me your real name), I’ll mail it to you. 🤝
ps. It doesn’t matter how you describe your realistic appearance, what is depicted in my mind based on your posts stubbornly states with me, which is totally VALID.
Words create their images and narratives, not up to a writer’s intentions, but a listener’s imaginations. 💭
Typo: “stays with me”.
Snow,
“It’s not on this Monday, but the April Fool’s day.”
Ah, ok. It’s 2.5 weeks from now. I’ll have to think of a good April Fool’s Day joke for him. Let me process. 🙂
“If you have your address sent to DrL then to me (you don’t have to tell me your real name), I’ll mail it to you. 🤝”
I was teasing a bit, but it’s sweet of you to offer.
“It doesn’t matter how you describe your realistic appearance, what is depicted in my mind based on your posts stubbornly states with me, which is totally VALID.”
Hey, if you want to think of me as being in my 20s, I’m not going to try to stop you. I don’t mind being the cute one of the blog. 🙂
Marcia,
“Hey, if you want to think of me as being in my 20s, I’m not going to try to stop you. I don’t mind being the cute one of the blog. 🙂”
It’s not the matter of I “want” or not, my mind just goes its own way, disobeying my intellectualizing based on the fact. So you’re going to remain “the cute one of the blog” until I behold you in person. 👧
This phenomenon has just made me realize why it’s so hard to pull out my OCD mode or limerence rumination when they were stuck in whatever the mind was obsessing. Objectively, my logical thinking knew some realistic facts about LO, but the mind stubbornly believed its own created illusions/distortions (mostly positive) of LO — the Phantom, and refused to come out there to accept the reality, which made it so hard to remove a LE in the past, until next LO intruded and pushed out the former one. Then the OCD mind began its new “addiction”…
Now, I am learning how NOT to make Romeo/any guy another LO. I hope a constant reality check and a sharp awareness of my mind’s tendency to imagine-stray on its own could and would prevent me from slipping into another LE.
Snow,
“So you’re going to remain “the cute one of the blog” until I behold you in person. 👧”
Ha! And if you met me, I’d then become the “old one of the blog.” The old broad! Not a title I ever wanted!
“which made it so hard to remove a LE in the past, until next LO intruded and pushed out the former one. Then the OCD mind began its new “addiction”…”
I’ve wondered that about myself as well. I seemed to have had to go from mental placeholder to mental placeholder, always having some LO or crush to occupy my thoughts. This is the longest I’ve gone without either.
Miss Marcia,
“Ha! And if you met me, I’d then become the “old one of the blog.” The old broad! Not a title I ever wanted!”
Nay! Are you going to push our Nisor out of her crowned Chair? If LwL “beholds” our 🫂 as “twin sisters” 🦚🦚, all 👽👽 will feel happily envy 👻👻!
“I’ve wondered that about myself as well. I seemed to have had to go from mental placeholder to mental placeholder, always having some LO or crush to occupy my thoughts. This is the longest I’ve gone without either.”
Maybe we both share the similar nasty OCD, a consequence of cptsd, in which we needed so badly to “nest”/hide in an obsessed fantasy —“mental placeholder”, so as to emotionally “escape” our pitiful and painful lot — an abusive parent and the consequential and accompanying traumas (definitely in my case). This is my own deduction (just coming out of our little dialogue right now) of how OCD was developed as a part of cptsd….
DrL might have a better explanation from a neurological perspective.
Congratulations, Sister, for having no LO/crush for a while! I’m not totally out of LE #7 yet, but it’s small a progress that Romeo has not turned to LO #8 yet. In the past, it would take a couple of hours for him to push LO #7 out and become a new LO.
I think the nugget I’ve taken from LwL is helping my mind stay in reality — striping “the idealized phantom” off the LO, and not putting any fantasy coat on Romeo; thus seeing/handling them both as an ordinary human being, co-existing in my reality at least for a couple of months.
More importantly, to keep jutting down my thoughts here would help me examine and rein my wild and fluffy imaginations. 🦄
Snow,
“Nay! Are you going to push our Nisor out of her crowned Chair? ”
No, not at all. I didn’t realize she’d already been crowned. I will honor her title. 🙂
“Maybe we both share the similar nasty OCD, a consequence of cptsd, in which we needed so badly to “nest”/hide in an obsessed fantasy —“mental placeholder”, so as to emotionally “escape” our pitiful and painful lot — an abusive parent and the consequential and accompanying traumas (definitely in my case).”
The problem is … when you stop escaping into the fantasy … you have to deal with the reality. Not always fun.
“I think the nugget I’ve taken from LwL is helping my mind stay in reality — striping “the idealized phantom” off the LO, and not putting any fantasy coat on Romeo; thus seeing/handling them both as an ordinary human being, co-existing in my reality at least for a couple of months.”
That’s good. It’s, of course, a better response. I can’t lie that there isn’t a small part of me that misses the romanticism and the idealization. I know it’s not as healthy to feel that way about someone. I get it.
Laying in the hotel bed while my wife still sleeps contemplating eating leftovers from dinner last night and a beer for breakfast I’ve had a good time reading this conversation.
As far as the gentleman aspect of the conversation goes; it reminds me of two things my father told me that I’ve never forgotten.
If a woman doesn’t have a man to care for her then you be that man.
A man doesn’t open doors, pull out chairs and carry things because he thinks she is incapable. He does those things for her because he wants her to know she’s valued and worthy of respect.
Also as far as my headcanon goes Bewitched is Elizabeth Montgomery’s ghost.
Marcia,
Last night I said I am not putting any fantasy coat on Romeo, then in my dreams of this dawn, my Unconscious put on a classical villain 🦹 coat on him 😱 …. Gosh!
Luckily, he’s realistically sweet, stunning, Romeo enough to conquer my dream depictions of him…. I’m still “recovering” from this “returning” dreams…
Watch out what thoughts to put in one’s head before shutting down one’s eyes for night!
Marcia,
“The problem is … when you stop escaping into the fantasy … you have to deal with the reality. Not always fun.”
Very true. So I normally escape into books or Netflix, just to avoid staring at the reality. However, this time, my reality has not run to its “dismay” peak that is coming in May, and I’m running around with the job situation, so feeling too unsettled to feel grayness of the reality. Still, melancholy is lurking very close by. 😨
“I can’t lie that there isn’t a small part of me that misses the romanticism and the idealization. I know it’s not as healthy to feel that way about someone. I get it.”
I’m totally with you. There is a bigger part of me still romanticizes and idealizes, not just about old LO, but other people/ghosts and matters, which are currently in my reality and LwL. As long as I don’t act on any ridiculously illogical fantasy, what’s the harm of it? 🫠
Romanticizing can be applied in many areas of life, e.g. my new pupils, send that bookmark to Miss Marcia in a snail mail…. it’s just a part of my nature, why do I need or want to change it? 😊
Snow,
“Romanticizing can be applied in many areas of life, e.g. my new pupils, send that bookmark to Miss Marcia in a snail mail…. it’s just a part of my nature, why do I need or want to change it? 😊”
I don’t know about you, but romanticizing and idealization have led to a lot of disappoinment. In people, in jobs, etc. The chasm between what is and how I want things to be.
There’s a great line in the play “The Rainmaker.”
“Nothing’s as pretty in your hands as it was in your head.” Truer words were never written.
Marcia Sis,
Apology in advance if I repeat myself and sound preaching or patronizing again.
“I don’t know about you, but romanticizing and idealization have led to a lot of disappointment. In people, in jobs, etc. The chasm between what is and how I want things to be.”
Disappointment comes ONLY from Expectations, NOT a desire (romanticizing or idealizing) itself. I grew up with a Buddhistic tradition that believes in Fate, not meritocracy. When it comes to matters involving other people, be they jobs, friendship, relationship, one only has 50% of chance to get to where one “wants things to be”. We habitually accept that with all one’s might (wealth, power, fame, beauty, etc), s/he may still NOT reach where s/he wants to be. It is a default of life, just as that “Fortune” Lady in the West.
We were taught since young that Fate plays a hand at almost every matters in life. We were disciplined and trained to be competitive, but always reminded that we still could fail due to Fate. So we desired/wanted, made efforts, but prepared for and expect a worst. Anything better than an expected worst would be viewed as a Bonus. In Fact, pessimism has been practiced far more than optimism. This is where Buddhism resembles Stoicism.
When NOT in LEs or dealing with other matters (other than romantic relationship), I allow myself to romanticize and even act on some romantic deeds; however, I almost always prepared for a worst consequential reaction. If it did happen, my disappointment would NOT be shocking, since it has been expected already. I prepared a rejection on every single job I interviewed, and got an offer 99% of the time (Lucky never was in a desperate position).
“There’s a great line in the play “The Rainmaker.”
“Nothing’s as pretty in your hands as it was in your head.” Truer words were never written.”
So just let something stay beautiful and alive in one’s head, instead of trying to get hold of it in one’s hand! Why a need to OWN something or someone? (Even if one can be owned!) I still can’t get use to this American dream — consumerism, be it for tangible or intangible stuff. The worst activity for me is SHOPPING (especially in Malls), which made me physically dizzy and mentally depressed every single time!
That’s what I see where a lot of unhappiness and anxiety lie in many people especially in the West: they want so many things so badly, particularly instant gratifications — here and now. After getting them (much easier in the past 2 -3 decades), they find they’re not happy or their contentment fade fast….
Even in limerence, I so desired to get a LO and imagined that once I got him, the life would be peachy every single day. Then, I got my SO. What happened soon after?
I really admire and agree with Oscar Wilde’s insight, “ There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it. ”
The challenge lies in keeping desiring/romanticizing without caring about outcomes — others’ (re)actions.
@Snowphoenix.
Isn’t it funny how LOs are (1) not relationship material (because usually we can’t date them) and (2) not friendship material (because often we can’t evict them from our heads?)
Here is a sonnet by American poet Edna St Vincent Millay, which I think depict limerence beautifully:
“Time does not bring relief; you all have lied”
Time does not bring relief; you all have lied
Who told me time would ease me of my pain!
I miss him in the weeping of the rain;
I want him at the shrinking of the tide;
The old snows melt from every mountain-side,
And last year’s leaves are smoke in every lane;
But last year’s bitter loving must remain
Heaped on my heart, and my old thoughts abide.
There are a hundred places where I fear
To go,—so with his memory they brim.
And entering with relief some quiet place
Where never fell his foot or shone his face
I say, “There is no memory of him here!”
And so stand stricken, so remembering him.
Beautiful poem!
I recently went to a concert of Schuberts „Winterreise“and although it’s of course in the end about much more than limerence for a girl that didn’t want him, it’s still at least at the beginning about limerence in its worst form…
I never can stop myself from crying during „Winterreise“ (although the pianist wasn’t quite what I liked etc, Schubert always wins) such poignant music.
@Mila.
Glad you like the poem, Mila. It is rather beautiful. That concert of Schubert sounds very interesting, limerence storyline and all.
I see that I should be careful with what I say on LwL. Peculiar words I recognise from my own vocabulary are cropping up in other people’s comments with alarming frequency: “patronising”, “robot”, “high priestess”. (I had no idea anyone actually listened to me). 🙄😆
If Snowphoenix is the high priestess of whatever she is the high priestess of (I’ll let her decide that one), and you’re the high priestess of whatever you’re the high priestess of, I would like to nominate myself as the “President of the Committee for the Suppression of Excessive Romantic Behaviour”. 😜
If you don’t get the reference, it’s from the British comedy “Keeping Up Appearances”. There’s a prudish character called Councillor Mrs Nugent, who’s always frowning on “excessive romantic behaviour” and thinks such behaviour should be quashed.
Councillor Mrs Nugent is a kind of modern-day Mrs Grundy. She makes me laugh. I see a bit of myself in Councillor Mrs Nugent. 😇
@Sammy
Thank you for the poem you’ve posted, it’s beautifully sad… I have a small question regarding the language: why does the speaker use the word “must”? Does she command her “bitter loving” to stay?
It’s even sadder in my LE in which there are less than 5 places, the memory of the Phantom would make them “brim”… 😞
“Isn’t it funny how LOs are (1) not relationship material (because usually we can’t date them) and (2) not friendship material (because often we can’t evict them from our heads?)”
It’s not funny at all but sad that limerence is neither friendship nor relationship with a LO but a fantasy-ship with our own head: in its surge, it could produce most beautiful and magnificent music, songs, epic poems, timeless love tales… ; but in its ebb, it could send a pistol to limerent’s head or hand…. (A beautiful, beloved COO actress killed herself due to a unrequited “love”)
Snowphoenix is a high-priestess of melancholy, of emotional fluctuation, of restlessness, of smothered “robot”….
Sammy Sammash, feel free to sparkle or fire up… the turbulent air might be necessary to toughen a firebird’s wings 🪽
Here is where my tiny knucklehead is:
https://youtu.be/r-SZ_e5GWMc?si=v9ImYRHBgwOWkn72 —
Rachmaninoff — Piano Concerto NO. 2 1, Moderato
Hi Sammy Nugent,
well,“patronizing“ is a verb I love and like to use simply because there is no exactly similar word in my language, and „robot“ is something that‘s common in internet use, no?
At least they always ask me if I‘m a robot and show me pictures of motorbikes, bridges and whatnot;)
I don’t know this British comedy! But I‘d certainly need a Mrs Nugent now and then, not because of romantic behavior but inappropriate romantic thoughts.
Being the high priestess of anything sounds like a nice compliment to me, I think it was highs and lows in limerence. I imagine long flattering tunics , incense-laden air, low humming voices chanting.
Certainly a more flattering image than I have of my limerent self (whiny, petulant, depressed or manic, clumsy, unfair..)
Ballade at Thirty-five
Dorothy Parker
1893 –1967
This, no song of an ingénue,
This, no ballad of innocence;
This, the rhyme of a lady who
Followed ever her natural bents.
This, a solo of sapience,
This, a chantey of sophistry,
This, the sum of experiments,—
I loved them until they loved me.
Decked in garments of sable hue,
Daubed with ashes of myriad Lents,
Wearing shower bouquets of rue,
Walk I ever in penitence.
Oft I roam, as my heart repents,
Through God’s acre of memory,
Marking stones, in my reverence,
“I loved them until they loved me.”
Pictures pass me in long review,—
Marching columns of dead events.
I was tender, and, often, true;
Ever a prey to coincidence.
Always knew I the consequence;
Always saw what the end would be.
We’re as Nature has made us—hence
I loved them until they loved me.
L’Envoi:
Princes, never I’d give offense,
Won’t you think of me tenderly?
Here’s my strength and my weakness, gents,—
I loved them until they loved me.
*****
A limerent’s chase?
Mila,
“I‘d certainly need a Mrs Nugent now and then, not because of romantic behavior but inappropriate romantic thoughts.”
Emotions and thoughts (average 70k-80k each day) come and go, not sure if Mrs. Nugent could help stop them whether inappropriate or over romantic. As you says (as well FinallyOvr) that we need to experiences them fully before they (demanding ghosts of limerence emotions and thoughts) would let our mind rest in peace.
“Being the high priestess of anything sounds like a nice compliment to me, I think it was highs and lows in limerence. I imagine long flattering tunics , incense-laden air, low humming voices chanting. Certainly a more flattering image than I have of my limerent self (whiny, petulant, depressed or manic, clumsy, unfair..)”
I’ve been in your shoes 👠 👠 (plus extra width) on and off, merry-go-around, again and again… Nowadays, even after knowing their natures and taking a bit ease in resisting them, I’m still dragged down, feeling physically tired and weary.
I also have a mental image of you that would not go away — I could not help think you are a German, somewhat like a German gf I had but not so much in touch nowadays…
Nisor and Marcia described their appearance and physique, but my mental pictures of them stubborn stay in my head. DrL and Sammy have no choice but carry the image my Unconscious dreams have given them. I know it’s all unrealistic, but my mind couldn’t help it, isn’t it so bizarre⁉️
Hi Snowphoenix,
yes, at the moment I let the thoughts come and go without trying to stop them either way.
Maybe it’s good, maybe not, we‘ll see..
I‘m afraid you cannot guess my appearance;)it’s a bit difficult in my case.
Sorry I won’t describe it to you, I’m scared to be too recognizable, although I have to say, I wrote so much that an attentive person who knows me would probably recognize a lot of my comings and goings and thus me.
Maybe I should be more careful.
Well Snow, I think it’s obvious that Mila in real life is Claudia Schiffer ! 😂
Oh no, my cover is blown. The Paparazzi will go crazy now! Will hide in my 6 million yacht somewhere in the Caribbean.
Mila,
I do not need you to describe your appearance to me at all. My point is that based on one’s words, my conscious mind could not help create a mental image of a speaker; and no matter what you describe, that imagine stubbornly stays, unless one day I meet that speaker in reality or his or her image is revealed, which would not happen here.
So you’ll have to live my mental depiction of you. 😄
Imho,
Actually, my mental images of Mila is not far from Claudia Schiffer, how interesting! 🤗
You haven’t spoken enough for my mind to form an image yet… 😄
Yes please, imagine me as Claudia Schiffer, I like that very much! 🙂 finally a top model!
Although I googled her now and her face looks really creepy these days. Can I please be Claudia Schiffer twenty years ago or without any work done on her face?
Mila – it’s the internet, you can look like whatever you want! 😁
In my years on the internet (since 1999) for the forums/communities that allow avatars I tend to associate the gender (if that is distinguishable) of their avatar (I think the kids call them “pfp” now) with that person behind the keyboard. We don’t have that here at LwL. So a lot of you, until I revealing statement, I associated a gender and age to you without knowing for sure. It helps me ground what a person is saying anonymously and make it seem more human.
Like L.E. I did not initially think he was as old as he is until he said something about his age. I pictured him much younger but just as sophisticated as an older man.
I’m glad you like the “Miss” Snowphoniex as I pictured you a man initially. I dunno why. Don’t feel too bad I thought Sammy was a lady. Sorry Sammy. You’re too introspective and perceptive to be a man. Now that I use the “Miss” I won’t forget lol
Until Miss Lovisa talked about her children, with as much as she loves running, I pictured her a very athletic, fit, attractive young woman. From what I have learned from her posts the only thing I got wrong was young. At least in age. As she is young at heart.
Mila, similar, but not so much to Nina, a young lady that I worked with way back in the 90’s. To which I would always sing “Oh see that girl , watch that scene, Nina (digging) the dancing queen” even though she didn’t have any clue what I was referencing lol So you look like her in my head.
When I would talked to Miss Marcia I wasn’t sure what to see. A very strict, well dressed teacher, being she is so candid and forthright? And when I would mention her to Momma I would say Miss Mar-see-a. My wife asked how she spelled her name and I said M-a-r-c-i-a. And she said I think it’s pronounced Marsha. And so now Miss Marcia is my Aunt Marsha lol Which is a compliment. She is the one stable and sane sibling of my father’s.
If it weren’t for quitting time and work and I’m ready to go home I could go on and on. All ya’ll have a physical appearance, age and gender in my head. And of course Dr L is the proper and posh British doctor that fits right into us American’s stereotypes of British folk. Sorry Dr L. Maybe I will make it to the UK or Britain and see what British folks are really like.
Hi Mila, aka Claudia.
Of course, Claudia circa year 2000 !
Hi Snow, I am Cindy Crawford, well known best friend of Claudia !
I like Adam’s reply.
I also visualise people on here and try to guess which country and age.
(Adam in his waistcoat and hat ! )
Adam,
“When I would talked to Miss Marcia I wasn’t sure what to see. A very strict, well dressed teacher, being she is so candid and forthright? ”
That’s how you picture me? 🙁
That’s the equivalent of me saying I picture a guy wearing a Mr. Rodger’s cardigan and tan khakis.
Adam,
I’m happy to be pictured as a tomboy/man! 😅😂
Initially I thought Sammy was a woman, too! My dream did not picture him as a woman, but it’s already after the fact that he’s not a woman.
IMHO,
Cindy Crawford is very, very attractive! 🌹
Idk, I think a strict, well-dressed teacher could be pretty hot…
When I first met my SO, one of my friends described her look as “hot librarian” and I liked that descriptor a lot. SO later became a high school English teacher for about 5 years – she wouldn’t have been described as a well-dressed strict one by any means, but we hung out with a lot of teachers after work at the teacher bar sometimes, and I can report that some of the well-dressed strict ones could definitely let loose after hours 🤣
Yeah, picture the one in the Van Halen “Hot for Teacher” video back in the 80s. 🙂
Lost in Space,
“Idk, I think a strict, well-dressed teacher could be pretty hot…”
It sounded like he was implying I had 15 cats. 🙂
I’ve heard of the hot librarian fantasy for men.
I don’t there’s the equivalent for women.
@ Sammy,
I’m watching the movie “Tom & Viv” and just heard the following public talk from T.S. Elliot —
“No poet can truthfully tell you the origin of a poem,
however personal a poem may seem.
What makes it a poem
will not derive from the fact that it is personal.
Poetry is not an expression of emotion
but an escape from emotion.“
What do you think of such statement? Is it true just T.S. Elliot, or somewhat true to poetry in general?
T.S. Elliot has a turbulent marriage with his emotionally unstable wife, so I can see how writing pomes might be an escape for him. But could limerents possibly write poems to escape their limerence pains?
What/how did you feel when you were writing your epic poem and other poems? 🧐
“I thought Sammy was a lady. Sorry Sammy. You’re too introspective and perceptive to be a man.” @Adam
“Initially I thought Sammy was a woman, too!” @Snowphoenix
Oh my God. You people are monsters! Absolute monsters I say! I’m a boy. I swear I’m a boy. I even have the collection of seven hundred and forty-two priceless porcelain dolls to prove it… 🙄🤣
Actually, I was thinking about this today. I’m not really offended by anything people say about me on LwL, because (a) you guys routinely misinterpret everything I say and (b) my gay male friends have already assigned me far more embarrassing nicknames.
In gay male circles, my honorific is “Grandma”. To add insult to injury, the gay men who call me “Grandma” are at least a decade older than me. I have decided very sensibly that they are celebrating my truly timeless wisdom and not my physical appearance. 😉
Funny that you all have these pictures in your head! I searched my head, and I don’t have any that wouldn’t be inspired by your descriptions of your appearance if you made any(I‘ve got a picture of Snow in my head and know that Adam likes to dress well , that Lovisa and LiS are sporty types). I just have the nicknames in my head, they seem to have a picture themselves, the sound of them, don’t know how to describe it- but I certainly don’t have hair colors, heights etc pictured in my mind.
When I think harder, I think that I assume that all of you are good-looking and attractive. Maybe because most of you write so well and attractively.
When, how LiS said, can look like whatever I want here, I wouldn’t choose Claudia Schiffer (no offense, Claudia Schiffer fans). But what would I choose? I actually like how I look in real life..
Maybe a redhead? I always admired red hair, the smooth shiny variety, not too bright and fuzzy, it’s quite rare..
I sometimes use the ‘read aloud’ function on the posts. So I think Mila sounds like that voice over lady who reads it. She has a neutral accent.
It’s very funny she reads limerence as ‘lime-rence’ !
So I think of rinsing limes under the tap.
@Snowphoenix, Mila, Marcia, etc.
Ah-ah-ah. All you girls are so sweet it’s hard to stay cranky at you. Although I’m not sure why I’m pretending to be cranky with you in the first place? Maybe LwL is triggering some age regression in me? I’m reverting to an age much younger than my 40-odd years. 😁
When I was a little boy, I had a younger sister. My younger sister would open the door to my bedroom and run in all the time. I would pretend to be outraged at my sister for intruding and chase her out again. But actually I came to enjoy my sister breaking into my room, disturbing the peace, and my sister enjoyed being chased out. On the surface, it looked like we were fighting – or that my sister was upsetting me. But actually we were playing a strange game…
When I was a little boy, I would also wrap a rainbow blanket around my waist, and pretend it was some gorgeous ballgown. Whilst attired thus, I declared myself queen (of the entire universe, what else?) and boss my younger sister around. My younger sister was a most disloyal, most disobedient, most disappointing subject. I could never convince her to do a single darn thing. So much for “royal authority”! 😉🤣
Mila, I’m glad you like the word “high priestess” and think it has romantic overtones. I’m glad you can adopt it for your own purposes…
“Patronising” is a glorious word, although in English it has slightly negative connotations. I don’t know if you’ve seen the British drama “Downton Abby”. When I patronise people, I’m invariably channelling the Dowager Countess of Downton Abbey i.e. the character played by beloved character actress Dame Maggie Smith.
It’s not really my place to tell you girls what to do. Also, it’s not my place to tell you how to behave. However, if you choose to take inspiration from me on one or two little things occasionally, that’s cool.
Rest assured I don’t feel angry at anyone. Snowphoenix is capable of pushing my emotional buttons very slightly, in the exact same way my younger sister pushed my emotional buttons when we were both children. But such pushing doesn’t provoke anger – only a bit of feigned exasperation. (Oh God. Not you-know-who at the door again. What does she want now?) 🙄😜
Pretty much the only person I ever feel anger at is myself. However, after talking with Frederico, I realise that I’m not even angry at younger me for the way I handled certain situations.
“Overmature” is a word that is sometimes used to describe gay men in certain contexts. I think gay men often grow up in environments where they’re expected to behave better than peers, certainly better than other males the same age. But the pressure to “always be a role model” can make it hard to get along with one’s peers and hard to sympathise with the concerns of people in the same age bracket.
In response to Allie’s comment of some time ago, it’s not the I view women as a different species. I think I view OTHER PEOPLE, irrespective of sex, as a different species. And hence I feel like I’m a different species to other people. I often feel alienated from the entire human race. It’s not that other people are weird per se. It’s just that some days I almost forget that I’m a human too. 😇
If any of you alleged German supermodels have a spare pair of gold stilettos in your closet, men’s size 13 or bigger, I will gladly take them off your hands. They might match my rainbow blanket dress. 😉
Sammy boy,
Idk why but I never pictured you as women. I think of you as a matured handsome guy man, a gentleman, kind and deep, very decent person, who is mischievous and likes to make jokes. A fun person who is carefree and doesn’t give a damn of what others say about you, even though you are a very sensitive one. A person I would feel very proud to be next to and enjoy his mischief…
Have a great day . Hugs. 💪🏽
S@Sammy
Correction : a gay man
Imho,
although I don’t pronounce limerence that way, it’s quite possible I could,because I write/read more in English than I speak and am surprised by the pronunciation of some words I knew only in writing when I watch something in English…
I‘m a bit worried about this read-aloud woman. Where can I find this function, I want to hear what I sound like in your head🙈i‘ve got an apple ipad…
Sammy,
I never pictured you as a woman either. You are definitely male, maybe shimmery and elegant like your writing, but definitely male.
But I was always wondering why you described yourself always as kind of that wisened old man (maybe the reason why your friends call you grandma?) ,wondering not because you wouldn’t be wise,but because then you say you are forty-something, which isn’t old at all in my book.
I mean, we are probably the same age, and while I don’t think I‘m young anymore, I don’t feel that old either… so for my own vanity, please don’t describe yourself as old😂😂
Actually, I cannot identify myself with „high priestess“at all, to be honest.
I love the picture of you in rainbow blanket with gold stilettos.
Adam,
Nina, ok. What did she look like?
I‘m getting rather obsessed now with being a read aloud-woman called Nina.
I know two Ninas, one is a bit self-centered and has this fake laugh, but still easy to get along with- the other one is also a bit self-centered, but very attractive and can be also very nice. So I‘ll go for the second one😆
This is a fantastic distraction!
OK, here is my vote for how people ‘look’ in my subconcious when reading your comments on LwL – and I only comment on the posters who I have a clearer picture of:
@Mila – small, dark, wiry (strong and thin), medium length hair
@Imho – middle height, long fair hair, colourful clothes
@Sammy – tall, blond, thin
@Snowpheonix – small, dark eyes and hair, sallow skin
@Nisor – grey beautiful luscious long hair, small in height
@Adam – tall, fair, beard
@Marcia – middle height, dark haired, strong body (muscular?)
@Lovisa – small, thin, tanned and blond-haired
@MJ – definitely dark hair
@DrL – also definitely dark hair
Speedy, LiS & LE, ABCD, I have no idea 🙂 Maybe ABCD is dark….
“When I think harder, I think that I assume that all of you are good-looking and attractive”
Welcome to LwL, where the women are strong, the men are good-looking, and the children are all above-average!
(Curious to see how many folks here will know that reference)
Happy Friday everyone!
“Welcome to LwL, where the women are strong, the men are good-looking, and the children are all above-average!”
Some adjectives are missing ⬆️:
Welcome to LwL, where the women are strong 💪 , hilarious, 😂 drop-dead gorgeous 💃🏻, the men are good-looking 😎, funny 😅, teary 🥹 , and the children are all above-average, 👯♀️ self-spoiled 🐥, whiny 🐣, fiery 🔥🐯 !
Bewitched,
„ @Mila – small, dark, wiry (strong and thin), medium length hair“
It’s probably not too revealing to say that you are not very far off the mark- take out strong and wiry🙈, should work out more, also what’s medium length? Not sure.
I don’t picture Lovisa as blonde, somehow, more brunette.
LiS,
I had to google your quote, I don’t know that show since I’m European-based 🤷🏻♀️
Mila,
I pictured you between 5’5”-5’6”, not sure why. You’re not short, under 5’4”.
Marcia told me she’s 5’4”, but I still “see” her as 5’2”, black hair in her late 20s.
Nisor also appears short to my mind….
Sammy, 5’10’- 6’0” ish, black hair. I can’t picture him in blonde hair, no way I could “adopt” a blonde hair Bro. He carries Dimash face but more angular and maturer.
Our brain works so mysteriously…⁉️
I pictured both Adam and Limerent Emeritus are masculinely built, with blondish hair. Adam may have short beard. Can’t tell about LE’s face… they’re both above 5’10”
MJ is also between 5’10” – 6’0”. The same goes with DrL.
Snow, I’m 5’2, thin, and sexy shape, short gray hair as you pictured me before. They call me here , where I live, the “exotic lady”.
(What’s this? I posted a comment but it never showed up! Trying again….)
You guys in your 40s talking about being old–you’re making me feel even older! Stop it! 😉
“although I don’t pronounce limerence that way, it’s quite possible I could,because I write/read more in English than I speak and am surprised by the pronunciation of some words I knew only in writing when I watch something in English…”
Heck, I have the same thing happen and I’m a native speaker! Oftentimes I’ll switch the pronunciation in my head back to what I thought it was, just so I understand what they’re saying. 🙂
@LIS: I got the reference! Do I get a cookie?
Snow,
“Marcia told me she’s 5’4”, but I still “see” her as 5’2”, black hair in her late 20s.”
Late 20s? No. I am plunk in middle age. People say I seem younger. I’m immature. 🙂
Bewitched,
” middle height, dark haired, strong body (muscular?)”
Yes, medium height. Dyed dark hair. Not a muscle in my body. 🙂
Re-posting my original message here in the right place as I originally posted in the wrong place ! Sorry – it’s been a long day!
Loving this fun interaction conversation !
I visualise many of you!
@Bewitched, I love your summary profile guesses of everyone. you had me mostly correct, except the blond. I do wonder if you live most nearby to me or even work at my same organisation ! Unlikely but you never know.
@Mila. ‘Your’ voice is on android /Google, and not apple ( I checked as I have an iPad too)
Your voice is ‘English UK’ on android/google.
On Apple you can still switch on read aloud or text to speech.
If you go to Settings, Accessibility, Spoken Content, Voices and you can choose your preferred voice there.
Once you have it set, you can highlight text and then choose ‘speak’ and then the text turns to audio. It’s cool !
Sammy Bro,
“Rest assured I don’t feel angry at anyone. “
Remains to be seen…❓ But will take your words for now.
“Snowphoenix is capable of pushing my emotional buttons very slightly, in the exact same way my younger sister pushed my emotional buttons when we were both children. “
It quite flattery that a red bird was able to push “emotional buttons” of an invisible 🐉, which in return has toughened fast her fragile wings 🪽 Now she gets more cheeky in reality after being tossed and refined in the fire 🔥out of a Western🐲mouth…
She’s also flattered to be “promoted/progressed” from a “mommy” image to a “younger sister” silhouette, regaining youth of a whole generation within a month… not doing bad, not bad at all… 😇
“But such pushing doesn’t provoke anger – only a bit of feigned exasperation. (Oh God. Not you-know-who at the door again. What does she want now?) 🙄😜”
“Only a bit of feigned exasperation”, Really? 🙄
Knock, knock! “Who is there❓”
🚪— 🦜💥
Imho,
so that means that I cannot hear this voice of mine on an iPad? Pity!
I just tried out the read aloud function, the voices all have names! I chose Kate from England UK, but she read everything in triple speed although the setting is on normal speed, I don’t know why..Serena does it too.
Hi Mila, that is strange. On my iPad I have Stephanie and she talks at normal speed. None of the voices on apple are as nice as the one I have on my android/Google. If you have a friend with an android you can maybe ask them to do the ‘read aloud’ for you. Ask LO on Tuesday 😂
@bewitched. I think of you with delicate features and medium long shiny straight brown hair. Maybe the witch in your name is influencing that!
@Snow sibling of Sammy, ‘petite’ is a nice word you can use for those ladies less tall of leg. also ‘Pocket Venus’
Imho,
I found the setting and now Kate speaks in normal speed, but I don’t like her. They all sound a bit unkind, don’t they?
LO does actually have an android phone! How do I explain that I want to listen to this voice?:)
Also, Imho ,
I think we established already that Bewitched’s and your LO are the same man who is an avid water sports guy, so it makes sense that you are working for the same organization. Only that Bewitched is in the same country as him.
Imho,
“Pocket Venus” sounds really nice to me! ✨
Words really have magic power, so dangerous, though…. 😊
Sammy Bro,
I’ve watched every single episode of “Downton Abbey” and loved Maggie Smith’s performance!
I also watched a bit of “keeping up appearance”, but never had patience and time to finish it all. I just thought the idea of”keeping up” with anything is ridiculous…. Mrs. Nugent is funny, though…
Hi Imho and Mika,
“I think we established already that Bewitched’s and your LO are the same man who is an avid water sports guy, so it makes sense that you are working for the same organization. Only that Bewitched is in the same country as him.”
Brilliantly observed🤫🤫! Dont let the cat out of the bag, though. I am chasing him down while Imho isnt here, ha ha!!
In all fairness, apart from the water sports, I think our LOs sound very different. If I put mine beside Imho’s, I suspect that she would be laughing her head off. I have always had strange taste in men and go for the helpless ones. My SO is the exception, he is very nice 🫠
Bewitched,
Don’t talk of cats in bags, it reminds me that I should stuff the da*n cat back into the bag and haven’t managed so far (I think it was Imho who started talking about cats).
Well, while my last LO was/is very attractive and an absolute magnet for females of all ages (as is my SO, but he‘s much less flirty) my current one is also not very obviously attractive. Which makes it easy to claim to people who get curious about our friendship that he‘s not my type at all and no danger of anything more than friendship.
Actually I believed it myself for the last years until limerence struck.
I would never laugh about anyone‘s LO anyway and I‘m sure Imho wouldn’t, too!
My LO is also sometimes helpless, which can only be attractive because he‘s so competent in other areas. Pure Helplessness doesn’t attract me, I‘m afraid.
Hi Bewitched, Mila,
Indeed I would never laugh at others LO choices at all.
(Maybe choice is not the right word, as we don’t consciously choose our LO )
and i like to embrace difference , I identify with it.
My LO is maybe a bit more typically attractive as a man but sweet too, I won’t go on about how gorgeous he is ! Im still trying to carefully investigate how other ladies perceive him. I wonder if lots of women crush on him. Not sure why this matters to me.
Bewitched, did you read my description of you and Adam thinks you of you as the actress who played Bewitched in the TV series, Elizabeth Montgomery?
Mila, yes that d@mned cat is still out that bag, still causing mischief ! Funny bewitched mentioned the same phrase. Maybe time to go shopping and get a bigger bag. 😻
Imho,
you mean maybe my bag is not big and beautiful enough to attract the cat! Good idea.
It’s all the bag’s fault, Shopping has to be on the agenda.
My LO doesn’t text although he wrote this morning that he’ll be in touch later instead of answering to my text, and unfortunately I do mind. I’m not as crazily anxious or angry as I used to be, but I would still prefer not to mind at all.
Cat just wandering around the bag, sniffing haughtily.
@Imho & Mila,
I think that your description was very flattering and maybe half right. Adam was also half right regarding Elizabeth Montgomery, the Bewitched star, her nose…..quite similar 😅.
I think its interesting that you wonder about other women having crushes on your LO. Injust assume that no one but me has a crush on my LO. Though I do think that he is a serial offender in having crushes himself. Its just a hunch since I have known him he has only seened to have eyes for me, but before me. He never does anything wrong, i might add. Apart from the eyes. They give the game away.
Mila, I do hope that your anxiety stays manageable. What a curse this is. How does Imho stay so up-beat? I need to go watch a comedy or something as I am feeling so roughed up. – Why Universe, why?! With a lovely SO here beside me too, in the immortal words of Limerent Emeritus, “You couldn’t make this up”.
PS It would be great if myself and Imho were indeed at the same workplace. We could go for coffee and confide in each other. Having a conversation with someone about this massive secret in real life might burst the bubble 🤔
Hi Bewitched,
I visualised us having coffee together in my fave spot at our work cafe, with nice view. It sure would be good to confide in each other.
Sorry you are struggling. I’m very up and down. I’m on an up as had recent LO contacts that were almost normal.
I think when I’m around other people, like here or f2f I do try to put on upbeat façade and go into help mode, or try to make them smile or laugh. I prefer to do that than address my own issues or shortcomings. I was reading latest on winter coffeehouse, and think I’m an avoidant ! Oh goodness , the ‘ issues list’ is getting longer.
Enjoy rest of the weekend. Try not to be too hard on yourself
Imho and Bewitched,
how I would love to sit with you in some nice spot having coffee and finally being able to talk to someone about it.
I don’t think I am avoidant, I’m far too anxious to please, but I certainly do have strange behavior patterns, like craving to see LO and when I see him not being able to relax or avoiding any too emotional contact, and then afterwards regretting not to have been nicer etcetc.
I think behind all these labels „avoidant“ etc is some normal human behavior that is in the core not necessarily bad , it just gets out of control here and there.
You two seem to me fairly self-observant intelligent persons, Imho, when you write to Bewitched not to be too hard on herself, please heed your own advice!
Bewitched,
can I ask, how your LO shows that he has only eyes for you and is devoted to you, when you only have contact through work? It’s just an idle question, not a probing “are you really sure” question, I don’t doubt for a second that you perceive it right, I just wonder how one manages to convey that during strictly work related meetings.
I tend to be wildly jealous if I suspect my LO (generally spoken about all LOs of mine)to have eyes for anybody else, which is absurd because in two cases out of three they had spouses. I was also in some way jealous of the spouses, but nothing compared to when I thought they flirted with someone else. Really stupid and painful.
Today I’m on one side very occupied by thoughts about limerence (as you might notice by my many posts pestering this site), on the other I’m today of the opinion that it’s a curse and a waste of precious energy, and I’m sick of it.
I wish everybody to have a nice Sunday with simple enjoyments and very little limerent thoughts- just enjoy the nice weather (here at least) and a cup of tea…
Hey Mila,
You asked how I know that my LO only has eyes for me? Well, we meet f2f very rarely, for work. There are always lots of other people present, including young and attractive females. I am older. So I do wonder if this might lead him to shower others with attention rather than me. But it never happens like that. The normal trajectory is that I try to maintain a calm exterior (in more recent times I am a bit fed up with him) while he loses it somewhat. I mean, jumpy, clumsy, staring, tongue tied, hyper-alert, listening carefully to anything I say… in latter times he seems like he is trying to stay away from me but also not quite managing that. We have been in a very crowded room with inches between us and no words passed as we loked at one another for a full half an hour. But we are not in an EA. We do not discuss ourselves or our SOs. We keep is all work based. We do not contact one another outside of work. Its like an unspoken contract. Mutual respect seems to depend on that.
All of this unmistakable energy emanating off him is like rocket fuel for my limerence. I should try to ignore him, but I swear, it is impossible.
Hope your Sunday is going well. I am having a cup of tea and trying to be stoic. Its tough, isnt it? Being fair on them and fair on ourselves. Also not letting the anxiety get out of control. And trying not to overthink everything….
Bewitched,
well, that does sound intense. How do you manage to do that for two years? He never gave a hint of trying for out-of-work contact?
Not that he should or you should.
It’s futile, of course, or would just lead to trouble. Might lead to disappointment and end of limerence, too, but wouldn’t take that risk.
Most probably these intense moments of eye-contact and mutual attraction are the best you will get out of any further contact with him- these moments are anyway the best in any love story, aren’t they? Later come all the trouble and problems and vexation…
I‘m far too dependent on my LO‘s behavior. Now that he seems to pull back (hasn’t written since he wrote yesterday morning that he‘ll write later that day) I‘m on one side ruminating why he doesn’t text (does it matter? no!) on the other side more able to take a step back again and be sensible about everything.
Like remembering that I should really let him go and with him all expectations how he should behave or not.
I get the feeling that I‘m rambling here.
Better stop that now..
Enjoy your tea!❤️
Bewitched,
I’m all over your eyes story.
This is very similar to my f2f experiences and the eyes was a key trigger of the glimmer for me, no doubt. However, 30 minutes locked eyes is a very long time and I wonder if other people notice. It’s very intense and let’s be honest, exciting.
For our infrequent encounters, his eyes are looking for me in the crowd and mine are looking for him. And when we meet we are like teenagers.
The first time my LO lightly touched me with eye contact at the same time was like electricity. I didn’t pull away.
So you are showing lots of restraint and as you don’t try to push that boundary, but the eyes are so very powerful.
Leaves a lot for your imagination to work on and maybe for him too.
At least you get to know him in work context so that he is not mystery pedestal man, and you see his good and bad elements too.
Mila, thanks for your message.
of course you are invited too, although a coffee break at the work cafe won’t be good enough. It needs to be a very long ladies lunch out, minimum.
I sense the high anxiety from you today. Maybe tell yourself he will text you tomorrow not today and message another friend on something fun.
I’m off to make a strong cup of tea.
Imho,
Yes, I‘m highly anxious, but not only because of him, I‘m having an anxious day generally.
I don’t know if I want him to text tomorrow- I mean of course I’m waiting for him to text!, but at the same time somewhere inside I don’t want him to text, if that makes sense.
For me to not answer my texts or not write after I announced to write would mean a conscious avoidance of writing, and I would have a reason like being pissed off by something or being driven by something to reduce contact.
When he texts now or tomorrow I won’t be sure if he just forgot or didn’t care to write, or if he had a reason and did it on purpose.
I would like to know if I’m under an illusion here and he takes everything much less serious than me, or if there’s a reason he behaves out of his usual pattern.
But my brain actually knows that it’s all really stupid and doesn’t matter.
No idea why I’m so anxious today. Maybe it’s hormones, and too little to occupy my mind.
Had already two strong cups…
Long lady lunch sounds good to me, followed by a walk and coffee?
You in, Bewitched?
Hi Mila,
I am so in.
I am having an anxious day too. Nature abhors a vacuum and Sundays are just too quiet….
There are a few other large skeletons that I would love to share with you but its too public on this forum. … I do wonder whether this secrecy just feeds this LE and what I need to do is confide in a friend or in one of my sisters.
Either that or go for couples therapy – maybe with my LO, to figure out how to stop triggering one another, ha ha. (My SO and I dont need therapy, I swear!). I am literally considering therapy, but am terrified of meeting the wrong therapist. Its happened to me once, decades ago, and I still have nightmares about it.
😨
Hi Bewitched,
not sure what time zone you are in, but it’ll soon getting dark here on Anxious Sunday , so not that much longer to endure!
I’ve never been to therapy exactly because I fear that there are a lot of “wrong”ones about, I knew two or three therapists in other contexts (ex-neighbors etc) and they all struck me as a bit warped themselves and -forgive the arrogance- no match for me.
I would be tempted to tell them all sorts of bullshit or colour my stories in the way I’d feel they expect me to (I’m such a people pleaser).
I don’t trust in people just because they chose a profession.
I’m as arrogant as to think that I know myself best and should be able to sort myself.
I know, I know.
I also have got things that I haven’t told anyone about. They are way in the past and I don’t know if it would help talking about them, but maybe there I’m wrong and they might be the key to solving some problems in the present. But I wouldn’t know whom to talk to about it. Therapy after all?
No, I distract myself with ruminating about why he doesn’t text..🙄
Now I think it’s really a bit rude. Or I’ve done something to annoy him without realizing it.
I get these urges to ask what’s going on, but it’s probably best not to do anything and try not to think about it. I’ll see him anyway on Tuesday, I guess, but now I’m much inclined to force it the other way, I mean to convince my SO that he should join us. I’m just so fed up with all the anxiety. After that meeting LO will leave country for a while, and maybe it would be good to not have contact for that time. A break from all this mess. And after that I guess that it would really be time that he decides if he leaves or stays.
So, anyway not much longer… god, I’m really anxious today..
“Nina, ok. What did she look like?”
Mila, I missed this.
She was a bit younger than me, but very boisterous. She had blonde hair, or maybe light brown. I’m a bit color blind. She was rather short, probably only an inch or two over five feet. Her laugh was infectious and when I invited her and other co-workers over for a party in my apartment she was a blast. Laughing and dancing the more she drank. 🙂 Hence the title “Dancing Queen”. She was a very fun person to be around. And I guess because at first you seem so lighthearted and fancy free I associated her with you not just in similar names.
“(Adam in his waistcoat and hat ! )”
IMHO
You know why I wear my waistcoats so much besides for fashion? *whispers* It hides my dad bod. *whispers*
“@Adam – tall, fair, beard”
Bewitched
That’s actually pretty accurate. I have what they call in the south a “farmers tan” and hence why I don’t wear shorts outside of the house. So fair on some parts of my body. I am 6′ and I have a very thin beard. I sometimes just wear it as a goatee. But I’ve kept it as a beard for awhile now.
Adam,
blonde, boisterous and fancy-free! 🤩It‘s fun imagining myself like that!
But it’s not really me. Although I do appreciate a party and can stay quite long, I’m certainly not life and soul of it. I‘m an introvert.
I can be lighthearted and a laugh, but I‘m a rather calm and quiet person on the outside.
But short, yes, that I am:)
DrL,
While I’ve been thinking about your coming book and what nuggets I’ve taken from LwL, I’d like briefly to second Sammy points here —
“I don’t like seeing the suffering inherent in limerence downplayed, because I think such downplaying is dishonest and gives the general public the wrong impression, like limerents are a bunch of carefree hedonists or something. If you’re not suffering, you’re not limerent”. (@Sammy)
“This is how I see it: limerence is a seesaw. One pays for one’s euphoria with despair. Despair and euphoria are two sides of the same coin. No despair/suffering = no euphoria/intense pleasure. After limerence, one stops experiencing rapture/misery in a really heavy involuntary way, although one might continue to cherish art, music, literature, etc, etc.” (@sammy)
For my limerence high, the first movement of Berlioz’s “Symphonie Fantastique” expresses vividly (lifting my biologically urged ballet-tiptoes); for my limerence’s low, Dimash’s “Love is not over yet” captures it heavily (making me in rare tears, despite a new Glimmer hanging nearby).
https://youtu.be/5HgqPpjIH5c?si=cUgsqUK-CyZiwuQV — Berlioz’s “Symphonie Fantastique”
https://youtu.be/5LUGN4B23go?si=QPr13ahZMPQHCMWt – Dimash’s “Love is not over yet”
“I have two specific questions:
1. What’s the most useful nugget of wisdom you’ve discovered on LwL?
2. What would you most like to learn about in the book?” (@DrL)
I really like Jaideux’s list, which has inspired some of my inquires from it. So I’ll put DrL’s two inquires together in my attempts to sort out my thoughts.
1. “There are dodgy LOs out there who collect limerents for sport.”
No matter what we do, think, or feel, we can’t change those LOs’ nature and their “sports”. The only thing limerents can do is to recognize what LO she or he is dealing with and firmly walk away from those Narcs.
2. “The ‘waxing hot and cold’ behavior of LOs is rocket fuel for the condition.”
How do we distinguish those “waxing hot and cold behavior” to be realistic or merely PERCEIVED by limerents’ altered state of mind? I have caught my own imaginary, mistaken perceived LO behaviors.
3. “Limerence is an addiction. “
Not right after Glimmer and before unstoppable rumination and reverie arrive.
4. “Limerence dies when not fed. Freedom is possible and within grasp.”
Some mind cannot stop its imaginery nature, how such a mind could stop limerence while not damaging their other types of creative and productive imaginations?
5. Those of us with a predisposition to limerence will experience it repeatedly until we know how to identify the glimmer and put up shields.“
If we clearly recognize/know our predisposition (e.g. cptsd, OCD, ADHD, Autism, etc, etc, etc), wouldn’t such a consciousness make limerents more aware of limerence’s lurking and prepare for its strike?
If single, why should she or he put up shields against that #bn dollar Glimmer, that would bring a flood of creativity, mental and physical energy ⁉️If the lows — the other side of the same coin, are certain to follow, then can’t one’s mind prepare and expect their arrival? Once expected, what could be worse?
Also in those scenario, shouldn’t one pay more attention and efforts in treating/curing their predisposition or existing mental dis-eases, instead of running away from that rare Glimmer?
6. “Limerents are somewhat unique and have inner depth and complexity.”
Just like any other “types” of people.
7. “Turning a LO into a platonic friend is almost impossible. (If we’re honest).
“It’s ALMOST, but still a tiny bit possible. When limerence is Truly gone, it IS possible. But it might not be a close friendship as limerents have hoped. (I speak only for my own LE#5, with 7-8 out of 10 glimmer but it was never emotionally unreciprocated. Now it’s an emotionally distanced but sincerely caring friendship.)
8. “Happiness of a more meaningful kind is possible post LE.”
That depends on how one defines “happiness” and “meaningful”, which could sharply varies from one individual to another. If one feels only lukewarm content during a post LE, what could one do to create genuine, meaningful joys out of one’s existence?
9. Limerence is not necessarily love.
Limerence is primarily Eros-love based (the most powerful), without involving other 6 aspects of Love — philia, erotopia or ludus, storge, philautia, pragma, and agápe. Talking about love, I think one needs to distinguish the differences among 7 types. Everyone is born with the capacity of experiencing all 7 types, now limerence seems to require limerents to kill that most blind yet precious Eros, that drives “a host, of golden daffodils; beside the lake, beneath the trees, fluttering and dancing in the breeze.”⁉️
10. We deserve more than a limerent fantasy!
The word “deserve” intrigues and puzzles me. What do we, as an ordinary human being, innately “deserve” in the world (w/o efforts)? I thought I at least deserve a biological parental love, did I get it? (as well as some other children.). Is anything that is innately deserved or undeserved in “Limerent fantasy”?
I know (lived with experiences) about what inexpressible sufferings limerent fantasy could bring to one; but if limerents could compartmentalize fantasies from logical thinkings and realistically function alright/okay, would it be still necessary to eliminate “controllable” limerence fantasies?
DrL: Would an insightful, controllable, mild limerence ever exist? Could you address such a possibility in your new book, so “unknown” limerents out of there could have some sensess what they are facing?
Been a while since I posted an update and I have gained clarity on a few things over the last few weeks. First off, I am still practicing some fairly strict LC (I like to call it ‘disengagement’) with LO to where I only interact with her on work matters. A number of weeks back she started warming up to me some, initiating some personal talk, sending a couple unsolicited personal texts off work hours. It’s all still within the ‘friendship’ paradigm but it still gets me thinking and hoping when she does this. So as you can imagine it was easy to give in and start reciprocating back. Once I start reciprocating, I am much more social than LO so the balance of initiation starts to tilt 90-10 towards me to her. This frustrates me because I am an anxious attachment and need people to put effort back towards me and she just never really does. She is a willing and happy participant if I initiate though so it’s easy for me to keep it up.
What I discovered is that though ramping up personal interaction with LO can still keep me emotionally stable, it ramps up my unwanted intrusive thoughts also. I start to fixate on every interaction and how it was and when the next one might be, and how much do I initiate or not. It’s maddening. I find I lose focus on other people and things that I had been investing in only to be replaced by thoughts of pursuing LO.
So after a couple weeks of this I took a step back and decided that trying to be any kind of friend to LO, even on a casual level, just does not work for me. It’s not healthy to my mind and I would rather feel the emotional grief of not having any personal relationship with LO than the thought madness of maintaining one.
It’s been 2 weeks now of basic, dull, work interactions only with very minimal pleasantries at best. I feel like she notices this, her demeanor is a bit different when I don’t engage her like she is used to, but I’m just not sure she really cares. I just need to get multiple weeks of this under my belt so it feels more like the new normal. Overall, I am comfortable with this strategy and I can feel my thoughts clearing up more and more. I just need to not let missing her, which is a very powerful emotion at times, derail it or her initiating with me, if she does, suck me back in.
Hi wagon of speed!
Thanks for the update. This sounds like a good strategy and I like the application of new terminology such as disengagement, new normal etc.
I do think switching or changing words does help shift the narrative in the brain. I have words that I am trying to replace with more neutral words/ phrases.
Triggers from LO, even small ones can be so challenging can’t they ! Out of the blue my LO asked for my advice on something very insignificant.
I like it when anyone I’m fond of asks for my advice, as it makes me feel good inside, but coming from LO its like pow !
Wishing the strategy goes well. 💪
Sounds like he just wanted to have a bit of contact.
Could you both, Imho and Speedwagon, maybe settle down with the knowledge that your LOs like you, even find you are attractive, and enjoy your company, but are not limerent for you in an obsessive way , simply because they are not the limerent type?
Which means, there will never happen more than pleasant contact and even a bit flirty stuff if they feel playful (because they have no idea what’s going on inside you), but they still appreciate you and that’s it- no reason to be angry at them, and a good reason to end uncertainty by thinking „they definitely like me and think I’m attractive, so I won, kind of, but that’s it- they don’t want more than that and I’ll gain nothing by obsessing“?
I know, I know, we limerents cannot tell that to ourselves and simply stop , but still it’s good to look truth in the eye, and maybe some day it finally hits home?
I hope I didn’t come across patronizing here.
It’s just that this or a similar approach seems to work well for me at the moment, but maybe it’s only a calm phase after all the turmoil.
Mila
I’m elbowing my way in here. That all sounds plausible, and delightful, maybe for a mild crush.
I am also trying to remember what it must be like for a limerent when No Contact is impossible.
In my world, which now seems to be a more polarised world, it seems like a fluffy compromise. Does that work? I guess that depends on how deep the limerence is and if we are really talking about limerence.
Frederico,
please elbow in whenever you want, happy to hear from you!
One has to keep in mind that my LE is a bit different in that LO is an old friend of mine of whom I know for certain that he likes me very much and will stay loyally my friend almost no matter what. Also, I know him very well and am sure that he is definitely attracted to me, but would never act on it. That gives me a kind of certainty and knowledge that other limerents cannot have.
So I‘m actually not the one who should dole out advice like I did.
I just feel calm at the moment in the knowledge that yes, I love him very much in a way, beyond limerence, and yes, he loves me in the way he can, as much as his type of person allows it, and that’s it. The craving for more seems to have subsided for the moment, paradoxically since I saw when we said goodbye the last time, that he really cares for me.
So it can be that I‘m deluding myself again, that my limerent needs are just satisfied by this goodbye for a while, and then it‘ll all start again, who knows.
In your case it’s more difficult. I read a bit of your posts, and I have to say, your LO sounds a bit confused. I don’t want to be as harsh as Adam and say that he tested the waters and used you for that.
I guess he just got scared of his own affection for you, which was a mixture of genuinely liking you much, maybe feeling flattered by your attention , maybe with an underlying physical attraction involved, and the latter confused him so that he had to pull back and lose contact. Not that he would have seen it so clearly why he did it, he just felt awkward and didn’t want that any more.
You sound like a loyal person to me,like my LO is, and this must have hurt like hell.
But it’s very possible that he cannot escape himself here and have a normal friendship with you.
It’s possible that he can, but it has to be an effort from both sides, not breadcrumbs from his side and loyalty from yours.
But again, I‘m not really equipped to throw theories around and give advice …
I just don’t want you to hurt anymore. If your state of mind requires working through it to leave it behind, or just throw all away in one big throw and shut the door, I cannot say.
Sorry! you didn’t ask for my opinion in your case, you asked me if what I wrote wasn’t a fluffy compromise;)
Well, no. I think it‘s what might only possible if one isn’t limerent anymore- as you wrote, maybe it’s not really limerence any more, if one is capable of this state of mind.
Still, it wouldn’t be a fluffy compromise, it would be simply accepting the truth (given that it IS the truth, of course- I just had the feeling that Speedwagons and Imhos LOs do like them a lot, but are not limerent)
I thought about that before, could I just enjoy the warm interactions and have my mind think she has feelings for me. I’ve tried that and it doesn’t work. It’s really just another version of can I be friends with LO. I can’t. My mind won’t settle like that and anything LO does that doesn’t seem like attraction, which she does plenty of, just causes me distress. Plus my LO is quite aloof and a bit relationally awkward so it’s actually tough to be friends with her and feel it’s reciprocal.
Through a lot of relational trial and error it’s better I just disengage from her. I would be NC if I could.
Wow, Mila, I understand your situation now and what you say makes perfect sense.
Thank you for taking the trouble to comment on my LE. I wish that my recall was as good as yours. What you said felt stunningly accurate and it is a good summary. It really helps me to move on.
Speedwagon,
You know your situation much better than me and you sound very clearsighted and determined!
Frederico,
I don’t deserve the praise, you just told your story very lucidly and I simply repeated it back and guessed at some stuff , but my guesses could be wrong.
I wish you both that you get rid of all that hassle, you both sound so intelligent, clearsighted and self-aware that I’m almost sure your LOs cannot match that and you‘d be better off without them.
(again throwing theories about)
Hi Mila, Speedy, Frederico,
Loving the interactions.
I would say that Mila’s summary of LO liking and being attracted to me without limerence probably does apply for me ( very astute Mila, and not at all patronising) I think mine and Speedwagons situations are different though as he outlined above. I have a long distant and open LO and a real chance of friendship if I can tame the limerence. I don’t see him everyday nor am I in his team or his manager , thankfully. That’s why I’m always very compassionate and admiring of speedwagons
handling of his day to day challenging situation which I think may be one of the toughest here on LwL.
I will be making endeavours to achieve the goal you have laid down. For me I hope it can be possible. Full NC is a last resort for me.
@Frederico, I agree a bit with Mila that your LO probably genuinely found a real connection with you but didn’t know maybe what was going on or how to handle it within social norms, his SO, his commitments etc
Be kind to yourself and I would say to try to divert to make connections with other people, old friends and new people you just haven’t met yet. new encounters, new experiences…..Im sure I would enjoy an encounter with you in real life.
Hi Imho,
you are right, Speedwagon’s situation is different and way harder.
But he sounds as if he‘s got control, which I admire.
Our situation might be a bit similar soon, if LO decides to leave, I won’t see him much but definitely keep contact and friendship.
At the moment , as I said, I‘m quite calm. We text a lot as usual, but I don’t wait, expect and ruminate, it’s just nice to get texts and if they don’t come, I don’t feel anxious. I do realize that there two main reasons for that,
1. I‘m still feeding off the warm feeling from last encounter, knowing for sure that he cares, I don’t have to doubt and ruminate about that.
But the thing is, I knew before it that he cares. Why it hit home this time and quieted the cravings, I don’t know.
2. I had lots of distraction, social contacts, new town, validation through work this week.
And now I have another problem to solve concerning the Easter holidays, so that occupies my mind now.
That proves that I use LO as mood regulator, distraction from unpleasant things, but also something to occupy my idle mind. As opposed to it being a fateful soulmate-scenario.
Or maybe time just does her thing and LE starts to run its course and fade?
Anyway, time will tell!
Has this reward-trip where you cannot go already taken place?
Bet it was only half the fun without you being there.
Hi Mila, great to read how you got this ‘ironed out’ in your mind and you seem very calm and in control. I do think an event, meeting new people or any break in routine helps to reflect on yourself and relationships etc. and you’ve had quite a bit of that recently. It’s good to write it down as you have done to reflect back, as the warm feeling and certainties you now have waiver as the memory fades, and you don’t want to be doubting yourself at some point down the road. I know I have been there myself.
I’ve been working away and busy social stuff this weekend so this really helps me.
The reward event isn’t until later this year. Thanks for asking. His friend messaged me to say I would be missed ! That didn’t help.
Well it is what it is. I’m just convincing myself that I will see him early next year. There is no logic to that timeframe at all but it helps give me some certainty and stops the delirious hope for the rest of this year, and soothes the pain of the reality that I may not actually see him in person ever again.
I hope whatever is going on at Easter will work out fine too.
….sorry last edit is missing very important word of ‘may’ or ‘could’ or ‘potentially’…you choose. Let’s be positive!!
“the warm feeling and certainties you now have may waiver as the memory fades”
Hi Imho,
I cannot imagine you will never see him again, only if you really don’t want to. Maybe it helps to think that you could make it happen any time (I mean, you could book a flight any weekend- purely theoretically of course), he‘s not dead and not on Mars.
Maybe that knowledge might help you to relax and just live day by day?
(Or maybe not- just throwing round theories again 🙈)
I think it’s nice what his friend wrote- imagine no one even noticing that you are not going! Better to be missed, isn’t it?
Could you maybe plan something nice for this time? With your family or without, just something so that you‘ll have a good time, too.
Thanks Mila, yes his friend saying they will miss me at the event is very nice, I just meant it didn’t help my stupid limerent emotions. Yes I do need to arrange more interesting exciting things to do actually. LO is very active, always doing something and in a way I aspire to be more like him.
Wishing you a good and serene week !
Thanks for the update, I always enjoy your posts Speedwagon. I very much admire your self awareness and self discipline, and I truly wish I possessed similar sensibilities.
As always your description reminds me of my situation but in reverse – your thoughts and described behaviour match up closely with my perception of my LO and how he might perceive me. He tries to keep his distance from me these days but I think he misses me sometimes and is thus warmer and friendlier for a short spell. He then retreats again leaving me bereft and confused. Of course, my limerent lens could be deceiving me by misinterpreting everything he does… but I don’t think so.
I recently tried but failed to move work projects away from LO. I was gone for only a week. It felt so utterly miserable that my failure was a huge relief. But now I am left stuck in the same wearying holding pattern knowing unhappiness accompanies all options.
Hi Speedwagon. My situation really echoes yours. If I am NC, the feelings are dull but stable. However, when there is contact, initiated by her or I, the intrusive thoughts / melancholy go up several notches. Generally, I am uneasy around her, so now I am trying to be more confident in my demeanor, perhaps that will help. Till then, I am using NC to become more resolute. All the best.
At the risk of sounding like the incredibly patronising human being I actually am, I would like to say I am very pleased with everyone’s behaviour in the coffeehouse this week. The conduct/conversation of all members has been friendly, courteous, and cooperative. That’s what I like to see. Kudos, everyone. Well done!! 😜
🙄
🙃
The Coming of Night
Skipwith Cannell
(In the city)
The sun is near set
And the tall buildings
Become teeth
Tearing bloodily at the sky’s throat;
The blank wall by my window
Becomes night sky over the marches
When there is no moon, and no wind,
And little fishes splash in the pools.
I had lit my candle to make a song for you,
But I have forgotten it for I am very tired;
And the candle … a yellow moth …
Flutters, flutters,
Deep in my brain.
My song was about, ‘a foreign lady
Who was beautiful and sad,
Who was forsaken, and who died
A thousand years ago.’
But the cracked cup at my elbow,
With dregs of tea in it,
Fixes my tired thought more surely
Than the song I made for you and forgot …
That I might give you this.
I am tired.
I am so tired
That my soul is a great plain
Made desolate,
And the beating of a million hearts
Is but the whisper of night winds
Blowing across it
For sure, the most valuable thing I’ve learned here is that it’s possible to get addicted to thinking about someone, and that’s a hard addiction to break since you can’t separate yourself from the inside of your own mind.
I’m just going to be selfish and put forth that my situation as I’m currently in it is that LO and I are both single (so don’t overfocus on what to do if you’re married, although that has happened to me in the past so I do understand the importance), and it’s been four months since I disclosed and the disclosure DID HELP but it didn’t completely get rid of the limerence like I was hoping it would. I’ve stopped thinking of him romantically, but he’s still like an imaginary friend in my mind. So maybe don’t gloss over that the thoughts don’t always have to be romantic in nature to be intrusive and bothersome.
Thank you, Dr. L! I really liked your other book.
Provide, protect and preside is invariably intertwined with the rescue complex. At least for me. I do agree its very much Western/Christian culture. I was taught that. That is a man’s purpose. Maybe it sounds narcissistic or sexist…
I dunno I was out with my brother and sister in law last night along with my sil’s childhood friend that has been recently divorced and there was a man when we were out drinking at a club (god Im too old for clubs) who addressed my sil’s friend in a way I didn’t like and told him so. My bil pulled me aside. Dunno what my problem is. But my sil said when we got back to hotel that she noticed I was very attentive of her friend after that incident. I told her a man doesn’t speak to a woman like that and at my age a life sentence is little of a deterrent. My sil laughed as by the time we got back to the hotel I had a lot to drink and she says “you literally walked her under her own umbrella when it rained.” And I was like yeah thats what a man should do.
Miss Snowphoenix , Miss Mila
In the irony of it all, when I told my wife about the incident Saturday night last night when we finally got home for the weekend she told me that her sister’s friend (that she knew as well growing up) had been in an abusive relationship before. (It’s almost like my rescue complex has radar.) But because of that relationship she had taken multiple self defense classes and could have taken that man down faster than I could have at the club. Oh sweet irony.
I asked my wife if she thought that she was offended by my standing up on her behalf. And my wife said if she did she would have no problem telling you. I guess I’m just an outdated man in the women’s new world.
” That function is not the excusive domain of men though is it? – applies both ways within any adult relationship.”
To me it is. But those things; provide, preside and protect apply to my children too. I guess when it comes down to it, I’m just out of touch I guess. But I do agree that both in a relationship should full fill these roles for each other. My wife protects me from myself. She drove everywhere this weekend because I didn’t have any buisness driving. Actually she does all three for me and it keeps me alive longer than I would be left to my own vices.
Imho, and whoever followed my tedious limerent-for-friend-story,
I forgot to ask LO about my voice on Android🤨! Just thought of it. (This only for Imho).
Otherwise it was a very nice meeting, we can talk warmly for hours (and did). Resisted thoughts of talking business about us- because what good would it do, as I mentioned to Whoops somewhere else..
But we talked about his decision if he leaves or not etc, although he gets really restless and vexed when he talks about it.
They will be abroad until after Easter, and then he‘ll have to decide in the following weeks.
So, as I said, not that much longer, and I‘ll at least be absolved from this uncertainty!
Just looked at him and noticed 1. that he showed those traits of him that I find a bit annoying, but is blissfully innocent about it, and that’s disarming, 2. that I really like him (nothing new here). He really is a lovely guy, and I‘m also physically attracted, which fills me with melancholy.
I actually am quite sure that he is attracted to me too and limerent in his own way. Just a small example, I suddenly remembered an incident at my party weeks ago, at a late stage when my SO went to bed (party going on afterwards) and I kissed him goodnight- we were standing with LO and he turned away sharply on reflex.
Mini stuff like that happens all the time here and there, and I shouldn’t need any prove that he reciprocates.
And shouldn’t that be enough for my poor limerent brain, the short meaningful glances, the sudden silences? As I said to Imho and Bewitched, isn’t that the most exciting and best part of mutual limerence, and, since anything more would be betrayal on a bigger scale, why not enjoy it and then let it go for good?
Easier said than done, but I don’t crave disclosure and certainty as much as I once did.
A definitely good thing about the meeting today was that I went running afterwards for the first time in weeks- told LO that I haven’t done any sports for a while and he said „ok then, when you go home,you put your running clothes on and go“ and I did.
So at least one healthy outcome!
(Thought of Lovisa- hope she‘s ok!)
Mila,
I’m following your story!
You’re all recharged up! Good for you! 😄 One physical meeting what LO would recharge ten times more than taxing for 10 days without five senses attached! That’s human neurology….
Although thinking last night that I’d stop attending LO’s class so to continue NC, still right now I’m typing this message to you in LO’s class…. Earlier, we were chitchatting in the lounge about our spring break, job searching, etc. while making/heating up our lunch, respectively. I made a fresh Summer Roll of my own fusion (1st time of this kind) for him (made other kinds and shared with him in the past)
It sounds like you’ll be able to keep your good friendship with LO even if he decides to leave your town…
Hi Snow,
I‘ll definitely keep the friendship, but it won’t be the same. When you are not part of each others daily life any more, you miss some of the changes in the other‘s life and personality, and there might be a slow drifting apart.
Still, if he stays, the drifting apart might happen out of other reasons, too much exposure to each other is also sometimes grazing on a friendship.
Life is a constant change, I will try to accept it.
I mean, the children will grow up and never with live with me again (probably), that’s also an unavoidable big change, I’ll grow older, health will change… one has to adapt.
Hey Mila,
Its good to have your update as I had been wondering about you.
I am glad to hear that you feel less anxious. I was also very anxious for 48 hours over the weekend but then, as usual, it seems to pass. Waiting these things out seems to work for me. Also as usual, I did have some dramatic thoughts, while anxious. One thing I realised was that if LO actually made a play for me, I would have a problem on my hands because I do not want to leave my SO for my LO. Maybe all I want is taking what is going on right up to the brink of that. But that’s pretty stark and indicates that I do not really want to be with him. So why stick with this LE? As I already recognised, it’s about validation. So what I really need to to work on my self worth (self esteem is not an issue for me). How does one do that in a meaningful way?
New and absorbing hobbies is the other thing, I suppose. Intimacy with my SO is going well and I think that this aspect is so important, Mila, for any of us who have SOs. Attachment styles and communicating well too, which are things I recognise that my SO does much better than my LO. I am still wondering if therapy, or a course in deprogramming night actually be useful at this stage as I am getting very tired of this.
All best to you xx
Bewitched,
„ One thing I realised was that if LO actually made a play for me, I would have a problem on my hands because I do not want to leave my SO for my LO. “
This was also the case for me in all my LEs. It’s healthy indeed to think it all through to the end: what if he stands at your door declaring unending love and expecting you to change your whole life? Uh, no thanks?
So it’s not undying love on your side.
But actually, I accepted this long ago about my limerent bouts- that they are not the real, life changing thing , or better said, that my feelings for SO are above that, but unfortunately it doesn’t change the urgency and pain of it somehow.
„ Intimacy with my SO is going well and I think that this aspect is so important, Mila, for any of us who have SOs. “
Well, that’s a sore point here.
We do have issues in the physical department, and it’s hard to solve them in all the struggle of daily life and health issues (all more on his side than mine).
Still, I don’t think that’s the root of my limerence, it just doesn’t help of course. My SO is still better in all relationship and intimacy aspects than LO, and I simply love him more.
How does one work on self esteem? Not sure. In the beginning of my relationship with SO I had serious issues with my self esteem etc, and I remember that a book helped me very much,it’s called „six pillars of self-esteem“ by Nathaniel Branden. I don’t know if I would still find it helpful, but back then in my twenties it rang a bell with me. But I might have been in a completely different state of mind than you. I particularly remember that the phrase „there’s nobody coming to save you“ (or similar) helped me, for whatever reason.
Hi Mila, thanks for the update and seems like the meeting was without your SO. Your true connection and friendship probably is most real and pure in those 121 situations in a neutral place, without others, without alcohol or entertainments.
I’m convinced uncertainty is a key driver of limerence and hopefully you will at least get this in the coming weeks at last after so much procrastination. I am a great procrastinator (so not being negative)
Once again you have to hang on to the reality of this encounter and don’t go back into second guessing on the messaging in coming days. I’m sure he is into you, and I know the same those moments, shining eyes, snatched lingering looks, silences and embarrassed smiles.
Enjoy it for what it is, yes you are so right. My LO almost certainly enjoys those moments but probably doesn’t overthink or push for more. He unusually said something a little on the edge on our last call that he knew would make me blush and crush. yes we should treasure and enjoy the energy of these little connections of attraction. It’s Enough. Don’t push for more.
Good for you going for a run ! He inspired you to go for it. My LO inspires me to be more active too, as you know he is Mr Fit.
I went for a speed walk today and I used my ‘Read Aloud’ function on my phone on my walk to hear all the latest LwL comments in your voice. Luckily no one around to hear the content!
Hello IMHO. I have also thought about this. Both LO and I seem to enjoy our little moments, as you mentioned – stolen glances, shining eyes, looks, embarrassed smiles. Since both have SOs, can it be just left at that level? Still trying to figure this one out. I have tried not thinking about her, and doing all the other purposeful living stuff also, but it is these repeated interactions that always pop up every now and then, leading to some steps back.
Hi ABCD, thanks for your message. I totally understand , seems we are experiencing similar interactions. Shame we can’t just be more in the moment, calmly enjoy the energy and joy it brings and then move on and let it go.
I was just thinking in typing to you that it should be like watching a good film. It was very enjoyable, even exciting while I watched the movie but afterwards I don’t constantly think about it or replay it over and over in my mind.
I need to think of encounters in that way.
Best wishes
I went for a jog the other day on my usual sidewalk block, and took a slow-motion tumble at the corner of an intersection.
One of the kind drivers rolled down her window and yelled, “Are you ok?!” I just laughed and gave her a thumbs up.
Now I have two shiny scabs on both my knees, and they hurt as they heal. Humble pie 🥧
That’s my running-story contribution.
Hi L. Nurse, poor you. Brave too.
I remember falling on my face on a busy road. I was so embarrassed I was thumbs upping to all the drivers and then hid behind a tree to cry from the pain.
I hope your knees heal very soon. Take care.
Hi Mila. Good to hear from you. I am happy that you went out for a run, great! I have had many of these mini episodes that you have mentioned as well. I am trying to see if I can function okay in this zone. Will update you all on how it goes. Keep running!
Hi ABCD,
I‘m actually not sure if one can stay in this zone. It’s something fluctuating, no?
It would be good to enjoy the hints and eye contacts without wanting more and without wanting to repeat them, just letting them pass and letting everything go, and then this phase will pass too without regrets. I don’t know, it sounds as if only advanced Buddhists could manage that😆
I‘m actually quite sore from running, I overdid it a bit for a first time in months (my lung/heart are always much better than my unused muscles/tendons). I forgot an appointment tomorrow morning, so I‘ll postpone the next running to Friday, I guess. Or maybe tomorrow afternoon.
ABCD, I wish you luck , hang in there!
Thank you Mila! Yeah, one needs to ease into running if one has not run for a while. I try and train 3-4 times a week, with rest days in between.
Yes, I agree that its not easy, if not impossible to stay in the “zone”. IMHO mentioned that these interactions could be like a good movie, that you enjoy more in the moment, and kind of not worry too much afterwards. If only, right?
Anyway, for me, the job at hand it to manage these sporadic interactions. I am working on this, and shall report soon.
Hi ABCD,
will run tomorrow. I read somewhere that it’s necessary to run a minimum of 3 times per week to make progress, but as I‘ll be glad to get into running again no matter what, two times will do for me as well…
I‘m still not sure if running should really be my sport, but want to give it another try.
I‘m afraid the movie thing is not going to work with me, I‘ve got too many feelings invested, it’s all unfortunately too far removed from a good movie to achieve that…
But letting go, that’s my mantra for these days..
I allow myself to feel and then try to let the feelings go.. but it’s hard because of course there’s a part of me that doesn’t want to let go.
I think in your case the movie thing could work, meaning that you‘ve got the contact, think about it afterwards and then let it go as a closed episode that‘s over, and not repeat it in your head again and again.
Hi Imho,
now I‘m really curious again what this voice sounds like🤨
I think all my other friends have got iPhones…
„ It’s Enough. Don’t push for more“
That’s the crux of my LEs: learning to not want more.
He texted me something very warm last evening, basically saying that I am one of the most special persons in his life.
(Now I‘m worried that I didn’t respond adequately. Which is stupid.)
Yes, it’s all enough, really. But I know that there is the danger to want to repeat these moments of warmth and love, to get this „fix“ again. One should just enjoy them and let them pass, not trying to hold on to them.
I‘m being the greatest procrastinator of all, by the way. Sitting here and writing on this site is definitely not what I should be doing at the moment.
So you are doing calls with your LO? Phone or internet? Just curious.
At least my LO isn’t Mr Fit. He‘s in ok shape but not at all sporty.
I plan on going running tomorrow again (telling you to be accountable)…
And yes, SO was not there, he didn’t want to because too busy. LO came in for a while to talk though, but I sensed SO wanting to get on with his things so went to a cafe with LO.
Hi Adam, Marcia, Snow:
For parched, inflamed and dry, aging skin, the best remedy is Liquid Vitamin E.
Look up in the internet:
“Vitamin E for skin benefits “
Improves skin hydration, antioxidant protection, prevents skin aging, wound healing, and many many other benefits.
Get the liquid one, and apply to skin, it’s very soothing , like a balsam. It smells , but just use it at home for a few hours and then wash skin with soap. You can repeat as often as you please. It’s great for wounds and red skin soars, if you apply constantly, the soars heal real fast! Also burns are healed fast.
Vitamin E is what hospitals use on burned patients , to make the skin grow fast. ( I read that somewhere long time ago). Most of beauty products you buy contain Vitamin E. Check it out.
I have beautiful skin because I have been using it on dry or very cold seasons; I also take vitamin E capsules internally, 400 I.U. after a meal.
For women, Estée Lauder face cream is excellent for everyday use. Estée Lauder, resilience multi effect is the correct name.
We want all limerents to look young and beautiful!!!
Best wishes to all.
Nisor,
Thank you for the information on Vit. E. I make a facial masks with Vit. E. Oil capsules. Never taken any or used it on the skin yet. We Easterners’s skin usually age better than fair skin tone, but as not good as darker one.
I will try some, since Miss Marcia has made the bottom line of being an attractive, “successful” limerent is to have smooth skins! 🧴😄
Hi Snow dear,
Make it your business to have soft skin , age forgives no one… And we don’t want to look like a prune, ha. The vitamin E in capsules is too thick, better a bottle of liquid one. (Diluted). They sell them at the Health and vitamins stores. We have Holland and Barrett stores here, specially for vitamins.
Time to sleep for me 😴. Have a good day. Hugs
Dear Nisor,
Okay, I’ll make it a business to keep my skin like silk.
I order most stuff from amazon (get sick while going physical shopping), it has 100% pure Vit E oil, is that what you meant? Or 80%? I’m afraid it’s so thick and will stain clothes.
You take an oral form, does a body absorb it?
Have sweet dreams and great rest! 🫂
Hi Snow,
The Vitamin E will stain the clothes, it’s an oil. But I only use it on the face. That’s why I ingest one capsule a day, after a meal , better after a salad or oily meal.
The Estée Lauder face cream is excellent, I have bee using it for years now, since I reached my forty’s . I aged good, it’s the genes! But I sleep well and eat healthy meals. Not too much fried food, oils or carbohydrates. So I keep in good shape for my age, everybody tells me, from the doctors, pharmacist, friends and strangers. At church they call me the “model”, ha. Some people abuse their bodies during their youth, with me it came natural to sleep a lot and eat well. I could sleep 15 hours a day!
I love biology and how the body works, it has to be from the inside, the food and vitamins you take is important. Outside care is only superficial. Health comes from inside.
The book I keep as a consultant is:
“LETS EAT RIGHT TO KEEP FIT”, by Adelle Davis ,
is a very good guide for me. I don’t know if there’s a recent version for it.
Keeping the Limerents healthy and beautiful!
Sending a bear hug.
Snow,
the book is scientific, has to do with all vitamins and nutrients , and studies made on it, ailments and sickness caused by deficiencies ( the benefits of vitamins) etc. and how to correct it.
It has a very good index, so you can find the answers to your questions quickly.
Hi Nisor,
For decades, I simply applied cosmetic Olive oil on my face, no makeup (unless for social occasion, use only organic kind), NO brand name of any beauty products! So my skin is almost spotless — no chemicals ever got on it. For the body, just cheap, rich lotions. I’ve saved thousand $ for travels.
I eat very light food (similar to Japanese kind), mostly prepared/cooked by myself, steamed, stir fry, broiled, baked, no fried anything —maybe once every two years. For the past 4 months, I’ve been on half Keto diet (enticing Carbs make me tired) with a lot of veggies and fruits, and on intermittent fasting (not very strict), which helped me gain more energy.
My only concern is my sleep, either too little (often going to bed from 2-4am) or too much (more than 7 hours at a time); the former makes me hyper for the following 24 hours and the latter depressed at least for the following 48 hours. Then, I often dream too much with vivid details — some experts say it’s good to release stress/anxiety; others say it’s bad because brain/nerves are still in very active states.
So irregular sleeping pattern could make me look tired, affecting skin around eyes. My meditation helps, only lately I could not focus as well as the last Fall, since May is approaching…looking for new work… then glimmer hit… then glimmer is gone, now I am feeling melancholy and tired…
We’ll have a couple days off for the Easter. It’s below 0 C degree here, unseasonably cold!
Have a beautiful day in your hopefully sunny place! Sending you 🫂
Snow,
I only put hydrating cream on my face, no makeup, only lipstick. And cheap Nivea cream on my hands and feet. That’s all my beauty routine.
I’m sorry you’re feeling all these emotions altogether, it’s a pain in the a$$. Specially if you don’t have a good sleeping pattern. I feel lost and cranky if I don’t sleep enough, six to seven hours a day. Do you do the breathing exercises to help
your sleep? Dim the lights early on in the evening to put your cortisol down.
The neurologist Andrew HUBERMAN has a video for “Proper Sleep “, I haven’t seen it but I’ll try to see it soon. I’ll be busy these days. Also : “Mastering stress”, I’d like to listen to them. They are usually too long… but if the tools help it’s worth the time.
I’ll be 👀 looking out for you on may 8th, your last day at your job. Hope you don’t get depressed because it’s a double whammy! Meaning you’re about to start a new life altogether, new job, new LOs maybe… ha. Renewal! Always remember that: Renewal, that’s what it means! New life, welcome new life for you, like spring just started today! I saw the daffodils and hyacinths in bloom, the birds busy making their nests, every thing is blooming , radiant , to welcome spring, after the desolation and darkness of winter… You’ll have a new spring season in your life, renewed, more assertive, more confident in yourself, all good things coming
your way, you’d just have to be adjusting to it. I wish you the best!
Hugs.
Hi Nisor,
Sorry I made myself misunderstood: I don’t have insomnia problems, because my mediation could put me to sleep in 3-10 minutes, even in daytime.
I sometimes sleep very late is because I can concentrate better (after 20-30 mins nap) in journaling and writing/responding here in LwL (particularly those big messages that spin my brain cells) in late evenings. Daytime is distracting with teaching & tutoring, and in early evenings I have to hit piano keys before the neighbors could complain. Once I started writing, my energy would be escalated and I can’t go to sleep without finishing them (rarely leave anything half done)— I have to let some “inspired” thoughts or emotions flow out spontaneously, without losing that momentum; they may and do change next day.
Since my own invented “cocktail” meditation from last July — focused breathing with spontaneous thought/emotion flowing, my sleeping hygiene is better. If I missed a sleep the whole night, I’d make it up all the way to Noon or early afternoon. I’m becoming a female “Proust” 😃
Even before May 8th, my current life is already hectic: setting time for new pupils, job interviews, attending LO’s class (really learning new stuff about historical and current cultures in the West, to compare on my own with the same fields in the East), politely confronting amorous hit from two fathers of my pupils (annoyed 😒 ), dreaming nightmares….
Yes, I want a renewal but do not want another LO, a bf or a long-term partner would be highly appreciated, but that would take time to find/bump into. I’m NOT on any dating apps — the hunting ground for Narcs and degrading place for organic human beings!
It’s exceptionally chilly here this and next week. Your place sounds marvelous making me envious, enjoy!!! ☺️
Sending you 🫂
After 20 years of being a homemaker I’ve been able to get away with only wearing makeup occasionally. I also use Suave lotion every day, usually wash with soap only once a day now (after reading the skincare routines of Diana Gabaldon and Elizabeth Warren). I also started using retinol a year or two ago. I’m 50 and while I see some lines starting to deepen here and there, I’ve seen no actual wrinkles–no crow’s feet, nothing. People keep complimenting my skin; a couple of weeks ago, I was told it looks like an 8-year-old’s. Of course part of it is genetics, but taking care of the skin helps as well. I also lost some weight, and eating better and getting lots of exercise is rejuvenating. That led to the need for a new wardrobe. You can’t stop aging until you die, but can help slow things down a bit. Despite hitting that milestone where women start feeling old, I’ve been feeling younger-looking and healthier and getting lots of compliments. Some things you can’t help, but some things you can.
Serial Limerant hi,
I’m glad you’re taking good care of your skin and doing the beauty routine to stay young and healthy, including your eating habits. It’s wonderful when one has to change wardrobe because of weight loss! I love shopping! Everyone is responsible for their health and looks. We are what we eat… also taking vitamins supplements is good because we don’t eat all the foods that provide all the vitamins we need. Like minerals, vitamin D, A, C , all the proteins, etc.
At age 50 you shouldn’t have wrinkles, unless you’ve been exposing yourself to the sun too much or have had a stressful life. I was lucky because I have high cheekbones, so they pull the skin back. Slept and ate well. I aged well, I’m satisfied. Also I drink a lot of water daily. I’m always thirsty.
I wanted to tell you to be careful with Retinol and its effects on the skin. You may like to check it in the internet , there are other things much better and less harmless than Retinol. Why Elizabeth’s Warrens beauty routine? I see nothing pretty on her, she’s too masculine for me. Why not Jennifer López, ha. She looks awfully young and feminine , bet she has a natural beauty routine. I don’t know. But do you see Madona how fast she has aged? Too much nights out, loosing sleep…it’s her job, night life, I suppose. Well, we have to be happy and grateful with what we have. Just take good care of it and be neat and clean.
Have a great day.
.
Hi Mila,
“He texted me something very warm last evening, basically saying that I am one of the most special persons in his life.”
There you go it’s in writing now, to refer back to.
That is very nice message to receive from anyone you also care about.
I think the fact you have long conversations and regular contact means you don’t have that limited time pressure to try to fit everything in.
I have this thing after an LO call that I meant to tell him this or that, and the opportunity is missed. Stupid. But getting calmer.
You have to ease yourself back into the running for sure. Remember to warm up and down. Lovisa will be proud of you !!
Imho,
But I know that feeling too. I never know when I might get him on his own ever again, without SOs or colleagues.
Also this time I was getting anxious from time to time, trying to remember what I will want to have said to him when he’s gone (because I had this feeling so often!), but this time I managed to relax because I sort of gave up the craving for disclosing and such, I reminded myself that everything is fine as it is and I shouldn’t try to push anything.
And what happened? I forgot to ask him about my voice on Android😂
Just kidding.
But you have phone calls that are not work related, right? That’s actually nice, he’s a friend really, no?
I am new to this but have read the first book. I would be interested in long term limerence if that is really a thing. I have not been in contact in decades, have never felt that way about someone since, and still think about her to varying degrees. Sometime it’s overwhelming and sometimes just passing thoughts but always there. I have not seen examples of this.
Hi John, welcome to the LwL community.
No contact for decades? How about 49 years of No Contact?
That’s me! I had a bf when young and single; we loved one another very much, had a relationship for three years. I walked away from it, regretfully, mainly lack of communication and ignorance, moved on, married, children, grandchildren, and didn’t think or dreamed of bf/LO in all those years. But, two years ago I had a dream with the bf of youth, and suddenly limerence hit me for the first time and the bf became LO!( My dream story on LwL/dreams, second comment.)
So, after 49 years of not knowing or hearing about bf/LO, it became an urgency, craving, longing, yearning to find bf/Lo, it became an obsession, ( I thought I was going insane) to find his telephone number, I did. But was hesitant to call, waited five grueling months before I got the courage to call. That was two years ago. I did call! What an emotional turmoil! We talked as if time has not passed, he was polite and happy so was I. First question he asked: “did you get married “. We swapped our family stories . At one time he told me: “thank you for the beautiful moments you gave me,”, that killed me, he was getting personal, and I felt sad and weak, could not answer or even say thank you. Got confused and changed the conversation. This was very painful to remember. He’s got an SO, as I expected, he’s been divorced twice and remarried at 63. Some record eh. I can imagine the lovers in between…
I’m not to ask about that. We finished the conversation , he said it was ok to call back. Strange with an SO. All these fueled the limerence to record highs! I was miserable with all ate rumination and hurt. I called again, BUT, this time there was a recording with his wife voice!!! I left a message .It drove me crazy, he must have told her! Are they sharing the telephone? How is that he doesn’t have private phone? More fuel to the fire, the uncertainty if not being able to connect the dots., or ask the question I wanted to. Sigh!
I called a second time and he answered himself. We talked naturally, I know he felt happy I called. At one point he told me: “ you’re not patient, have you waited a little longer, our lives would be different now, it was not meant to be, it was fate or maybe God.” I told him, “ I know you loved me and I loved you too, and we were the envy of everybody, he interrupted angrily and said : “ but you listened to your friends.” I think he felt entitled to reclaim my behavior then. Any way I said it was my fault, but changed the subject because I was getting too depressed and weak knees, a bad painful feeling all over me. After finishing the conversation I said to myself “ I cannot go through this pain again, I will not call again, it’s an awful feeling.” I cried a river, but I have not called in about sixteen months. I’m in NC, but it’s painful and I know it is the only solution. I have an SO and so does he, and we are older people also. It’s ridiculous limerence at this older age. I have come to accept to live with sorrow. It has affected my sweet relaxed way of leaving I had before. I’m trying to make sense of it all and live a purposeful life. Not easy.
Good day to all.
Dear Nisor,
Your story never fails to impress. Has it really been 16 months of complete NC now for you? That’s a very long time. I think that you have said in other posts that you feel vaguely better but still struggle on some days? It seems like such a long time to still be under the grip of limerence and I find it quite discouraging that I too appear to be taking a long time to recover completely despite maintaining strict LC.
I find it endlessly fascinating that some people can get over limerence in super-quick time, while others take much longer. Your case is an important marker for me, because of the strict NC that you have maintained. I have read the posts that say the time to recovery seems to depend on your own circumstances but that NC is always the answer. Which I believe, by the way. But I am interested about the other variables, the ones intrinsic to everybody’s unique situation. In your case, you actually has a 3-year romantic relationship with your LO, which must be part of the reason you are finding it hard, despite 16 months of complete NC. Other people are friends with their LO and had that bond long before limerence set-in, so I can imagine that prolongs things due to a pre-existing friendship that they do not want to lose. In my case, I am still going strong after years and do not know why it is lasting so long because I think that I have a great SO and no issues there. Bearing in mind that my LO interactions are quite strictly work-based only with no extra stuff to throw me off my LC. So now I am beginning to think that on some level, I must not actually want to recover from this, on some level. In fairness, I do recognise that it served (serves?) as a sort of coping mechanism in my life, so it would be rational on some subconscious level to not want to let go of that.
Anyway Nisor, I am so sorry if you feel that you are still struggling from time to time. You have always been so kind to everyone here, it is so much appreciated.
Hi Bewitched,
Thank you for your post, always so kind and sweet.
I’ll get to you tomorrow. I couldn’t find your post before. Sleeping time, 12:00 night, Cinderella past time to become a 🎃. 💤💤💤
Good morning Bewitched,
Sorry for the late answer but I lost the post , finally I rolled everywhere and found it.
To tell you the truth, it’s very hard to do NC, but I have no other choices. What can come out of it if we keep on talking? I’m not willing to stay in limbo, neither to know that I’m sharing halfway, No, no, no, for me it’s all or nothing. I’m selfish in that respect. Someone I had all
mine, and keeping a conversation alive would be like I’m taking crumbs. My inner self rejects that immensely. Therefore, NC is the answer as hard as it can be. NC doesn’t mean you forget the person, it means you make the DECISION to understand that reality is different than what you fancy in your mind, that this relationship have no future, it’s not valid in any way. Crave and long all you want, it doesn’t work. It’s accepting reality. So NC is always the answer, whether you like or not, it will be forced on you sooner or later. The waning is the hard part, controlling yourself not to give up, putting up with the grief, handling graciously the days that hits you hard, the search for solutions to your pining, then comes a sadness that you can live with. But sometimes the mind gets too occupied by LO, that is the memories of something gone , which you’d like to have again…. One is transported to that time and place of the past, not realizing the years has passed. It’s hard to decouple this thoughts from the Limbic brain and bring it to the Cortex to process it. Sometimes, when I write here, I’m transported to my youth, that is, I’m living on that time past, that age! Limerence is a weird thing… Yes, I’m 16 months in NC, and it seems it was yesterday when I talked to LO!
I see you’re concerned with your limerence talking too long even if in L/C. I don’t think it would be too hard for you to “erase” LO from your mind because there is no intimacy involved, that is, if you ever go NC, either he leaves or you leave the job. As long as you keep interacting or seeing ,sharing occasionally with the LO, either a little or a lot, it’s going to be very difficult to detach., if at all. No question about it, so don’t pound your head over this and try not to keep your hopes high, so it doesn’t bother you as much. You, Mila, Ihmo, ABCD, Speedwagon and others who have to interact daily or occasionally with LOs , will have the flare ups all the time. Can’t avoid them. It must be like going through the sieve, and the thousands deaths you can’t control. I really admire you guys for the strength and courage you have putting up with this ups and downs. Thinking about it, it’s not that you don’t want to let go, it’s because you can’t; you can’t go NC and the interactions limit your chances to being completely successful. So, the mind knows that and takes advantage of that difficulty…
I’m glad you have a great SO, at least it gives some space to work in your marriage and do things together to keep LO out of your mind. Try to find things on SO that you really admire. I do that a lot and it brings me to time, that is reality.
Have a great weekend. Hugs.
Correction: weaning; taking;
take me to present time
Dear Nisor,
Thank you I am so deeply touched by our advice. Three things you said in particular are so helpful:
“No, no, no, for me it’s all or nothing. I’m selfish in that respect. Someone I had all mine, and keeping a conversation alive would be like I’m taking crumbs.”
I am also egotistical enough to demand all or nothing :D. I have no interest in waiting around for an LO who has other commitments. Also, I already know it would never work and that my SO is far superior to my LO, in every way. So there are two solid reasons to forget all about my LO!
You also said “I don’t think it would be too hard for you to “erase” LO from your mind because there is no intimacy involved”
This is so true. You could say that I barely know the guy. But I would dearly love to become intimate with him (oops!!). That is never going to happen. Definitely not. I would not let it. Its just something primal that I need to quash. Its actually something that Imho and I discussed and both struggled with on Valentine’s Day. I had a very strong sensation of physical desire for my LO. Weird. My crazy middle aged hormones maybe.
The last thing you said which I found very interesting was this:
“Sometimes, when I write here, I’m transported to my youth, that is, I’m living on that time past, that age! Limerence is a weird thing… Yes, I’m 16 months in NC, and it seems it was yesterday when I talked to LO!”
Nisor, I strongly feel that your LE has something to do with recapturing youthful passion and exuberance. Sometimes you speak so wistfully about that time of your life. Can you recreate any of it, somehow? Do something wild? I dunno maybe I am way off base with that and your life sounds really wonderful. But I hate to think of you in pain. I don’t know if there is something you can try to be rid of this association between your youth and your LO maybe? Or whether you can fantastise about something else instead. A beautiful film star or something.
I got to go back to work now. Sending you a warm wish for a beautiful weekend.
Hi Bewitched,
Thanks again for your text. Don’t worry about my pain, that is: my sorrow. Everything is under control most of the time. When rumination starts I go to my bedroom and let the thoughts come and take their course to go away .I don’t cry anymore as before, and he’s not in my head first thing in the morning or last thing before sleep.Sometimes, tbh, it does happen. But it doesn’t hurt as much. I keep myself busy to brush aside thinking of him.
That I’d like to recapture my youth, passion and exuberance? Nay , I have enjoyed every single stage of my life as it is at the time. Each stage of life has its own beauty , recompense, and joy. I cannot complain. But it would be nice to be given a second chance to correct the mistakes made before. I’ve discussed with Sammy (hi!) this absurd feelings and limerence in general. So, mainly it is regrets or reproaching myself for not having the patience and the correct communication then, immaturity. As one reflects on the past, now that limerence has intruded my life, one becomes awfully aware of the mistakes, errors , one has made and wishes to have them corrected in some way; which is impossible.
I’m a realistic person, I don’t like any shadow of gray, that is, I don’t think transferring limerence to a film actor would not be my fancy to get someone off of my head. I’m the radical type, cold turkey, and finished! But if I were to fancy someone on TV, that would be the pianist Francesco Piedimonte ! But he’s too young and I think he’s gay! So, LO, is my fancy and is eight years my elder. Ha!
And yes, I would like to re-live my youth, the decade of my twenties, when I was young and care free!!! Just one more time…. Old age is good too, there’s no cares either, if you don’t get involved in your children’s lives…I don’t. Bewitched, dear, life is a never ending world of surprises, there’s always something happening trying to disturb your life, the thing is to stay cool, calm and composed as much as you can, observe and learn. Nothing is for ever. Not even us.
Have a nice weekend with the family.
Just shortly barging in, Nisor, if you mean the pianist Francesco Piemontesi,I met him once by chance, he definitely is gay 😉 and very, very nice.
Hi Mila,
Yes, that’s the pianist I meant. I always get his name wrong. Is he as good looking as he seems to be when playing the piano? Oh, lucky you seeing Francesco in person! He’s from Switzerland, but Italian descent. I love Italians…
Hugs
Thanks for sharing. I’m envious that you could reach out. Unfortunately, this is not an option for me and the circumstances of the last time I saw her were less than ideal. I had known her for about a year, I was stationed in FL. She lived in Houston so I called weekly and visited when I could. It was definitely one sided but her Dad was my biggest cheerleader due to the circumstances of how things got started. I stayed at her house a couple weekends before my first deployment to Iceland. It was one of my best memories, meeting her sister. Her Dad introduced me, this is John, he’s in love with my daughter. It was great. She was very attractive so there was always the fear that she would meet someone. I deployed, sailors don’t make a lot and she told me to call collect. On her birthday I called and she said her dad had gotten a camera for her and when I got back I could come out for a couple weeks. I was elated. A couple weeks later a male voice answered and told me to stop calling. I was crushed. I needed answers but didn’t call again. I did go out unannounced after I returned. Mainly to ask what happened and say goodbye. She got home with him, sent him away, invited me in and told me to ask any questions, we talked for two hours. She asked my plan and I said heading back in the morning. I made one of the biggest mistakes of my life. She said, you’re here why not stay and hangout. I did. We spent some time together on Saturday. Then again on Sunday. However on Sunday there was a ring on her finger to my surprise. She didn’t point this out, he did. Don’t blame him. We drove around, she asked me what I thought of him, telling me my opinion was important to her. Then she played a song for me. Garth Brooks The Dance. Everything she did that weekend made me think I mattered in some way. On her front steps, I said well I guess this is goodbye. The sabotaged me one last time and said it doesn’t need to be you never know what will happen. I still had my friend. She never answered a call again and it was the last time I spoke with her. I’ve never trusted myself since. I’ve fantasized regularly about meeting her. It usually ends with just the start of a conversation. For 32 years it’s been my greatest desire to see her again. I harbor no expectation beyond that, just to know that she cared for me in anyway. But because she ceased the communications it would be meaningless for me to contact her.
Figure it will just drive me mad to varying degrees. It was pretty well controlled until a couple years ago when I was diagnosed and treated for cancer. Up until then I was very good at not keeping in touch with people, quite intentionally. But started re connecting with old Navy buddies and friends I think as a proxy to connecting with her.
This site is the first time I’ve experienced like minded situations.
John, hi
“I harbor no expectations beyond that, just to know that she cared for me in anyway.”
Like you, when I called, after wrenching soul searching, I was not harboring any expectations, I was afraid I would be rejected and that would be a killer for me. I was sure he loved me dearly, for those were his last words to me. But I wanted to know if he still loved me or had any feelings for me. I didn’t ask him that of course, but the way the conversation went, at some points he’d get personal and say like, “I only have good memories of you”, or thank you for reminiscing me in your mind”, to which I didn’t know what to say, got tongue twisted and confused. Those comments were too much for me to handle, all of a sudden I got mute and silent. Then the uncertainty kept on growing and I figured I better stop this suffering. He has never reached out to me either. Perhaps because I told him he cannot call me since SO is always around. Anyway, if he really cared he’d do like I did, get the strength to call, unless his SO wouldn’t allow it? It will show in the telephone bill. So, that’s what keeps telling me he’s over me a long time ago. I’m the limerent, not him, therefore I can’t expect nothing from him…
That said, I don’t know how desperate you’re for contact, but if so, I think calling her would be okay, just casually. Don’t expect positive results, but more uncertainty. If you’re ready to deal with that, go ahead. I gambled , and no force in the world could have stopped me from calling, even if my life depended on it! I don’t regret it. If he had outright rejected me or closed the phone on me, I had thought that as a possibility, I was prepared to take it and leak my wounds… My LO never played games with me, it was a serious relationship. And he told me in our first telephone conversation that he never cheated on me.
But your LO, according to what you described, she played you like a fiddle… I don’t like that. What is that to come out with a ring in her finger, and still ask you for your opinion abt her boyfriend ? Didn’t she know you were interested in her? Couldn’t she read your feelings for her? I don’t understand it. How can she be so cruel and heartless?
Do you feel rejected? Do you think she has changed somehow? Curiosity is eating you up , and I understand, but you still want to take the gamble… well if you’re prepared for the worst why not satisfy that curiosity? What have you got to loose? Maybe, if she rejects you, at least it will give you some closure, I don’t know.
I’m sorry for your cancer diagnosis, I hope it’s somehow curable, or go on remission. I understand why you want to be connected to your navy buddies and friends. Once you’re in the armed forces the connections are very tight, they care for one another. So it’s good you stay close with them.
I wrote you a book! You keep posting and let us know how you’re doing in the coo future. We care for one another here.
Best wishes.
Hi IMHO. Your good movie analogy sounds very interesting, and promising. I will put it to the test, and let you know. For now, I am going through the NC, and bracing for the next contact.
Anxious day again, and feel the need to draw a line.
Of course, after the long meeting and this text from LO that was really much more committed than I would have thought him capable of, my thoughts circle around him constantly. Not in a vexing manner (at first), but still.
Now he’s on an intercontinental flight, and somehow my anxiety grew since yesterday evening until the moment of departure (minutes ago).
I had a dream tonight where he left with his kid in tow, I walked with them for a while, said goodbye with a long and tight hug and planned to follow them a bit, but he strode away quite purposefully and I lost them in the crowd- scanned all the people but couldn’t find them any more.
I have a strong feeling of goodbye, as if I should close that chapter now, at least for the duration of his trip.
I even thought that he might have exhausted himself with that meaningful text and might himself need a break now (going away with his family).
But he doesn‘t seem to feel like that as he texted something like „until later“ when his plane moved. He seems to want to continue as it was.
Don’t know if I should follow the instinct and reduce texting or if I should just let that pass and run its course like everything else.
Probably latter. He‘s in a different time zone, there won’t be much texting going on anyway. And reducing means effort, effort means ruminating.
Again, I struggle to keep reality in my head. While meeting, I could see him clearly, and now it all goes vague again and takes on this or that colour, his good sides and his meaning in my life exaggerated etc.
I will dial the thoughts back and try to concentrate on other things and persons.
Not much longer, I keep telling myself.
I actually think it won’t change the outcome if he leaves or stays- anxiety will definitely go down in either case.
Hi Mila. I’m sorry you are feeling anxious. I’ve been feeling anxious since last week as well. I guess when we have a spurt of good contact with LO, the expectations also go up, setting us up for disappointment later. Whereas in case of nc, there may be a dull sort of a longing, but it seems more manageable. One of the reasons my LE is so strong is that I have not got a chance to know LO well, so that has kept the mystery / enigma alive, hard luck for me 😀. I hope you feel better with the passage of time, it will get better, it has with me, till the next interaction at least. Lots of strength to you.
Hi ABCD,
I have this deadline going on that he has to decide during the next weeks if he stays here or moved to his new workplace for good, and set high hopes that his decision will end the anxiety and the limerence. Not immediately, but in due time.
If he leaves, it will probably go on until they move house and are gone (summer), if he stays it’s possible that it starts to fade immediately.
Maybe I set to much hope on it.
I see that it must be hard to see LO only sporadically, always seeing her good sides, never getting the full picture, and this indefinitely.
I hope that with each completed circle of nc, feeling ok, contact, being elated, coming down, suffering, nc , feeling ok etc , you‘ll get more tired of the whole mess and something will click and end it, or the curve of up and down will get flatter and flatter until you realize you haven’t thought of her for quite a while and are not that excited when you see her.
Hi Mila. Whether your LO decides to stay or move away, I hope that you feel better and have reduced/no anxiety.
Yeah, this cycle that you mention has been going on for a long time. Right now, I am just going along and trying to brave through it all. Thanks for your support.
Needless to say, Marcia, Imho and whoever shares my incline to sweet addiction, that my sugar intake increased significantly in the last days 🙈
I plan to curb this from tomorrow on too..
Mila
Not related to limerence but related to sweets. I can usually tell when my wife’s bipolar is kicking her down. I will get a text to “pick up something sweet I don’t care what it is”. And I know she’s down. She self medicates with sweets the way I do with alcohol. Lately she seems to be trying run Little Debbie out of Nutty Bars. I’m like damn girl! Lmao How many of them can you eat? You usually quips back with “as much as you can drink that vodka.” 🙂
Hi Adam,
hm, Nutty Bars are with layers of wafer, no? That’s not my thing😆although in times of need, also chocolate with wafer isn’t safe from me.
Now, when I feel the urge to calm myself down, relax, distract, reward etc, after stressful LO business, in the evening I do steal glances at some very nice red wine I got as present, or think about a gin and tonic (still from my party), but I‘m lucky in that my SO almost never drinks alcohol, otherwise I can imagine myself self-medicating with alcohol too. But I won’t start drinking alone, it would feel weird.
I do know I‘m prone to a light sort of addiction to sugar or phone or even books, and I know that that’s a reason not to start with alcohol at all, too dangerous for me.
I do get your wife! Like her very much with her witty retorts.
Hi Nisor,
Reaching out to her is not something I feel is appropriate. She made her choice a long time ago to break contact. While I was devastated years ago and those events changed me. The one upside is that anytime I might have felt could have been what I now know to limerence I pull the brakes hard.
As for her, she never loved me but evidence suggests we were close friends. I can only hope she broke contact because she cared or was pressured to by her SO. While I was deployed she had time to meet him, he cheated on her and they got back together. I am fairly certain he did not think well of me, since I managed to have one of my officers who I reported to hand deliver flowers while he was on leave in Houston, it happened to be the night he came back apologizing to her and her Dad was not pleased and he pointed out that if he was supposed to be mister nice boyfriend, how come she has a sailor half way around the world who never misses the opportunity to let her know he is thinking about her. ( She told me that on the last visit ). I know her SO did not like that.
Regardless, I will care for her and hope she is happy. I am not part of her life and it has been 32 years. I can only fantasize the we meet by chance and she remembers me. I have coped for 32 years and dont thing I can let her memory go. I would love to go back in time and be sitting on the couch watching a movie thought 🙂
John
“Regardless, I will care for her and hope she is happy.”
This is how I see it myself. But it hasn’t even been 2 years yet since I last saw her. She let me into her family. I got to know one of her daughters (the other lived with her father). Similar to your LO she had been divorced because her ex cheated on her. How a man could cheat on such an wonderful woman is beyond me.
But before she left the job she started seeing another man. They were together for almost a year before she left. He seemed to care for her and her daughter. Would bring them lunch some days (her daughter sometimes came to work with her because she had no one to watch her daughter. She was 15 at the time.) and snow cones on hot summer days. Whenever she spoke of him you could tell he put a skip in her step. He seemed a good man. And I hope the three of them are happy together. It’s what keep me no contact. She has a new life.
@John
It’s really up to you to call her or not. After 32 years, if nothing serious was going on to bond you both, it’s fruitless to call, I think. Would she remember you? That’s an uncertainty I had , but still I knew for sure that LO had loved me dearly. But I figured that perhaps he had somehow forgotten, you know, time makes things fade away.
It looks like her father liked the idea of you being her boyfriend. What a coincidence with the flowers and her SO making up with her again, bad timing…
Do you have an SO, or this LE ruined your love life? Sorry if I’m getting too personal, you don’t have to answer, I’ll understand.
I very well know what you mean to go back on time to re-live those times again. Precious moments, unforgettable precious moments. I’m a silly romantic person though I sometimes come across as a strict hard person . Do you think you would change anything if you’re given the chance to go back on time? I would, a lot. Most urgently correct the communication, it was very poor. Well, we only live once…so no dreaming or ruminating on that.
Stay strong and healthy.
Oh I’m fairly certain she’s at least remember me. The initial events of our time together were rather extraordinary. As a matter of fact anyone who’s heard the story agrees it could be a movie and that includes her at the time. I’ve actually got a short story written about it.
It’s one of the things that makes it so hard. I really should have never gotten to know her at all but I did.
I wouldn’t say she ruined my love life. I’ve been married for almost 20 years and generally have contained this well, but like I said, The cancer treatment was the first time I had to really face that time was flying. It’s gotten me connecting with people I left drift into the past. She just never drifted enough for me.
Generally, though I’m standoffish with people in general and quick to pull the trigger when I feel mutual feelings are not there. I’m deathly afraid of being ghosted though I didn’t know the term at the time. That’s the biggest effect she had on me.
Her dad was definitely in my court. The last time I saw her he called when I was there. She said guess who’s here. She didn’t seem to mind at all. There was so much positive to latch onto. Sadly, I do know he passed away quite some time ago.
I think it would have been different if we’d said goodbye and I left on my own terms. It’s always made me question what we actually had and definitely turned me from a silly romantic optimist to a much more cynical realist.
I suspect that while she would remember but the details would be gone for her.
I am more than happy to share about this, maybe some good will come of it, maybe not.
John hi,
You say you have written a story on your extraordinary friendship w LO, did you publish it? Would she recognize herself in the story. How sweet of you, you must’ve loved her dearly. I wish my LO have written a love story about us. I always thought of writing one myself…
Maybe she remembers more than you think. Perhaps she was secretly in love with you, but you were too young, too shy to disclose to her? Some women, like me, expect the men to take the initiative and they follow…
Wishing you never had met her is in vain, its destiny to blame
who put her in your way. If it wasn’t her it would have been someone else.
When I find myself pining for LO, I also wished he had not approached me that fateful evening. It was beyond my control, the stars were aligned for us to meet, he was so polite and kind, different from anyone else I had met. It was like finding the unicorn! Everything rolled so smoothly, it was a bliss. Love is so beautiful when one is young and it’s reciprocated! After, like you say , one becomes a cynic. It’s because we have realized that life is unpredictable and unfair, one never gets whom we want or dream of. I think it’s the fairy tales that influence us to think that way…
I understand being afraid of being ghosted , who wouldn’t? I m somehow guilty of that one. When I walked out of my relationship with LO, i simply mailed him the mementos he gave me without a letter. It was so painful to take that decision but if I wrote a note or a letter it’d have been very painful for me. It was abhorrent and cruel of me, but I was so resentful and in grief I just couldn’t write a note. I feel so guilty, he didn’t deserve that. He called and called, finally came to my office to see me, but didn’t bring the subject matter to question me. He asked me if we could stay friends, and I said yes, but I knew I could never be friends with him. I loved him so much but was so arrogant to say it. Finally, he called early one morning to say he never before loved another woman more than me, and I said, now it’s too late. Then he said: I just wanted you to know that, to which I responded, I have to hang up, it’s getting late and I have to get ready for work. And that was our last conversation in 49 years. I don’t know how I got to tell him ‘now is too late’, that’s what came out of my mouth without thinking. How I regret those words today!!! It changed our destiny together !!! And, now it’s really too late to fix anything. That’s what causes me the greatest pain in all this limerence melange. Not being able to have a mature conversation about the ending of our love story. We both acted immature, period.
Saying goodbye to someone is a very difficult task. Most people avoid having that conversation and just disappear from the scene, they ghost you. You only see saying goodbyes in the movies, I think.
Did you ever made it known to your SO? I wouldn’t dare tell my SO, I don’t need to hurt him with my baggage.
It’s funny how life makes one reflect on how fleeting it all is, in sickness, terrible disasters, unpredictable circumstances; it makes us realize that we are here for just a few numbers of years and they pass quickly, the clock starts ticking the minute you’re born. We have to make the best use of it before it’s too late. Friendships are important, not many, but a few real good ones. One you can confide in, comfort you when in travails. Its good to be part of a community, like a church. I attend church and we have good fellowship. I realized that when I became older, we need connection with other people. No one is an island…
Take good care of yourself, stay strong and have courage. Have a blessed happy weekend.
Hi Nisor,
I have not published it yet, I have attempted to write it several times, sometime as a screenplay other times as a short story. Each time I stopped, this time I just wrote everything, got it all on paper and had a friend review it. Getting the voice correct has been a challenge, I have tried third person but it just doesn’t feel right.
I would expect she would definitely be able to tell it was about us.
I do plan to publish it but will need to change names as I don’t have permission plus aspects of it may have not aged well. Either way I did love her very much and care.
My favorite memories outside of one of my greatest adventures are the simple things. When she told me she had talked to her mom for the first time in ages and its the most secure she felt in a long time. Sitting on the couch watching Pretty Woman, talking about the possibility of me participating in Desert Storm, she really didn’t want that.
In the 34 or so years since first I looked into her eyes I have never once wished that did not happen. On my last weekend that I saw her, when she got engaged she asked what I thought of him and told me my opinion was important to her and then she played The Dance, those lyrics if you are unfamiliar
And now,
I’m glad I didn’t know
The way it all would end
The way it all would go
Our lives
Are better left to chance
I could have missed the pain
but Id have had to miss the dance
She most certainly knew how I felt, this was no secret. A man drives 15 hours each way on a 3 day weekend and sends flowers regularly it’s pretty obvious.
I stopped in a the flower shop so I could hand deliver flowers on one of my trips. Got to the shop on the way into town before they opened and once I said I was there for roses. They were like, you’re the sailor from Florida who always sends flowers to the pretty girl in west Houston.
Did she love me? Not romantically, this I know.
I was prepared to say goodbye because it was the right thing. I tried twice on that last weekend. It would have been better than the false hope of talking with her again. That is my sole regret.
I don’t think telling my SO would be particularly productive.
But it is great to get some of this out. I have one extremely close friend who has been my friend for almost 40 years. He’s of course heard the whole story.
Have a great weekend!
John
John hi,
I didn’t know publishing a book was so difficult, maybe in the USA. If you published it, would you send her a copy? How else could she know about the book?
Did you get to go to Iraq for Desert Storm? Boy, did i follow day after day, after day, until the end when they finally got Saddam Hussein. I used to stay awake watching CNN until five in the morning.( I’m in Europe)
Changing the subject, I still can’t get over her (LO) getting engaged and asking for your opinion and playing the song etc. That must have been very hurtful for you. Did you know in advance she was go engaged? Or it just happened without your previous knowledge? Don’t have to answer if it stirs some lingering feelings…
It seems you’re a very good and strong willed man , with a very sensitive soul.
Some people unwittingly hurt our feelings or make an impression on us that lasts for a lifetime . We must be grateful they were in our lives even if for a moment and wish them happiness in their lives.
I’m trying to convince myself to not bring the past to my life anymore (very difficult) since so many years have passed by, 51 years now, to be exact , since we went separate ways. And it so vivid in my mind, it feels it was yesterday! I keep on wondering how the mind works and asking why the mind plays these games of the memories with us? I was fine until that dream with LO that sent me on a spinning wheel ride, and into limerence , turning my life upside down. As you may have noticed I’m not a chick anymore , it all feels so ridiculous and incredible. I’ve been married for 47 years and never before had any crushes or desires for any other man, neither did I think or had dreams with bf/LO before. That’s when I started searching and found this site. At least I found a name and an explanation to my “torment “, and people who have the same torments as me and we understand each other well.
Cheer up and have a great weekend.
It’s not so much that publishing is difficult, I’m trying to do it justice. I’ve considered sending it to her but we shall see. I’ve just completed the first draft. It needs a lot of work. For reasons specific to the story for her I will change some names.
I did not end up going anywhere dangerous for desert storm but it was a discussion we had while watching Hamburger Hill a Vietnam war moving we were watching together. No idea why. I recall her asking some questions about what was happening and explaining it and she had excitedly told her Dad about it. It was strange but satisfying like she didn’t have someone who would do that.
As for her engagement, I’d say our story involved what my friend referred to as some crazy cosmic timing. Such as the flowers arriving in mid argument. Well I arrived back from deployment after not talking with her for months because her SO had told me to stop calling but I had to make one more trip to say goodbye.
Maybe he proposed specifically because I was there , dont know. She was not engaged when I got there on Friday. By the time I left on Sunday she was. It sucked, yet she still left me hanging when I said “I guess this is goodbye.” Her response of “It doesn’t need to be, you never know what’s going to happen”. I latched onto that like someone lost at sea finding one last lifesaver. Maybe I forced his hand or maybe more cosmic timing. We were 21/22 year old kids at the time. I am a different person as I know she is too. I never expected my thoughts of her would last for over 30 years that’s for sure. I too have never experienced feelings for someone like her in all that time. A bit ashamed to say not even my spouse.
She treated me with such kindness that weekend though. I’d love to sit down, talk for a couple hours. Reminisce a bit, catch up and then say farewell. I think that would be amazing.
@John
Did you read the blog:
“LwL, Case Study: Limerent for an Ex” 6/1/2019
The comments are great.
Also blog: “Why wasn’t I good enough for them” 2/1/2020
Have a great day.
For all who crave reciprocation as a warning message, and for people who can be bothered to advise me🙈:
Reciprocation or the certainty that he/she cares doesn’t assuage the limerence at all.
Since LO sent this surprisingly clear text (not saying he‘s limerent or in love but stating my important place in his life in a way that even I, usually the more forward person of us two, would have hesitated to text) I’m completely mired in thoughts of him again, like last summer. A major relapse.
Apart from doubting thoughts („how did he mean it? Only as a friend or more? I didn’t respond adequately, didn’t I? Is he disappointed now“ )I just feel close to him and miss him, and that’s not a good state to be in when he‘s neither my SO nor my next of kin.
He‘s away with his family and I feel the obligation to give them their family time without barging in with texts and stuff, but I did it anyway because I miss him. And that feels bad. I‘m restless and a bit sad and struggle to come back to a realistic picture of LO without pink and glimmery hues.
When I‘m restless like that, I feel the urge to act, close it off, whatever.
Three options:
1. I just sent a text wishing them a good time that could act as closing the conversation for the duration of his trip. I could not initiate texts anymore and just respond with Emojis if he texts.
2. I could go with the flow, text when I want to and respond if he texts, not forcing anything and trying to let the feelings go through me and pass.
3. I could be honest, text him that I miss him but that it’s all a bit much for me and maybe we just take a break and resume contact after his trip.
Of course the last feels most like action to me, as if I take control, but then it could sound too dramatic and stir up more than is good.
The first could be misunderstood, he could feel hurt or neglected for the wrong reasons by me pulling away, which would cause my pain again, or he could start asking questions which is maybe also not a good idea.
The second is more like my planned strategy anyway, and doesn’t provoke unwanted reactions, but it’s kind of painful. And will it get me back to a better distance from him? I don’t know. It only works when I really let the feelings pass, and I would have to be stronger than I feel now, otherwise it would be just going on on the same path.
I‘m walking here and there and beating against the prison walls, so to speak.
I know the best thing would be not to think of it much and let all be. But am I strong enough to let it be and not ruminate? maybe I need one piece of action to get the needed peace of mind?
I know, in the end it’s all futile and it‘s only two weeks, after that we‘ll meet again anyway, and then it will be decision time, maybe just go on like always and sit it out, I don’t know.
Anyway- see, dear limerents with LO s that don’t care- I know it hurts badly, maybe it’s better than this prolonged mutual mess…
Mila, I have to be quick to reply as I’m off out (although speed of thought is not my strong point)
Very sorry you are essentially relapsing due to this big trigger of his message.
I personally would say definitely not no. 3 and add a burden to him that you are suffering, that is not fair. I also wouldn’t play the emoji only game.
It’s his family time and maybe if he does start texting back to say let’s catch up when you are back and show no hard feelings or anything by saying you will really forward to it etc but you are respecting his holiday he needs time away to reflect on his big decision, and that includes you. A holiday is just that, a break from the normal, work, family, friends, normal habits. For me anyway, I like to disappear for a while.
So is that an option 4. I don’t know Mila. 2 weeks seems long but it really isn’t.
I will check in later …. Try to get time outside and off your phone 😀
Dear Mila,
I agree with Imho. Definitely not option 3. Something between 1. and 2. may tide you over until the normal routine re-establishes itself. This is all very potent: he has made a declaration of sorts, he has a leave/stay work decision which affects you, and he out of contact for a few days. Still, I think it is best to let him initiate all / most contact for these 2 weeks. You can tell yourself that you are there if he needs you but you’re not interfering in his family time? I think that’s ethically the only real option. Sorry if this sounds harsh, I think its the best thing for you if you tell yourself that you are taking a principled stand. Yet I do empathise with the relapse and the reasons why this has happened. More leaning on 1. with a tiny bit of 2., so he doesnt think that you are being odd with him, basically.
This sounds as though it will come to a head soon if you are not able to reclaim your calmness. Sending hugs!!
Hi Bewitched,
thank you too for helping me, you are all such kind and considerate people!
Yes, not initating is my plan. It might be also his plan to reduce contact, I’m not sure. But I should stop thinking what he thinks and do what I think is best.
In my post to Imho is a lot of what I’m thinking.
It might be best just to wait it out until my feelings calm down again, and just answer nicely when he writes, but not send anything by myself, thus reducing rumination- the less I have to think and decide about it, the better.
The urge to „do something“ stems from wanting to escape pain, but maybe it’s not really helping now, because matters are still unresolved (does he leave or not).
I‘m probably making too big a thing about these two weeks now anyway.
„ This sounds as though it will come to a head soon if you are not able to reclaim your calmness. “
Not sure about that. I know how much is at stake (lifelong friendship) and plan to restrain myself no matter what, and since he is the opposite of impulsive or active , he won’t come out with a rash disclosure or similar.
We might still sail this ship into steady waters!
Hi Imho,
thanks for reaching out even when you were busy!
I agree with you and Bewitched that an undramatic reduction of contact would be best.
I‘m just not sure if any message indicating I want to reduce contact (like, I’ll leave you to your family and holidays, let’s catch up later- it’s his decision if he needs a break, no? When I want a break, I shouldn’t pretend he needs one?) wouldn’t be already too much and get his rumination going?
I think the need to take action and „stop“ something outwardly is futile, it’s looking for fast relief.
The most important stuff is going on inside me (as stated in the newest article), and it matters more that I get to a calm and accepting state inside than sending signals of reduced contact to him.
But not quite sure if I still wouldn’t need some decision and reduction to reach this state of mind.
I took my mind off it yesterday by having a really nice day with family. Activity helps, although there is a background humming.
He sent photos of food (me being his personal Instagram;) but us being in different time zones, the time frame for messaging is anyway reduced.
Plus, maybe I imagine it, but he‘s also a bit restrained.
Maybe I should just leave it at that. I definitely won’t initiate in these two weeks, and I think they could pass in this way of pictures here and there and not much more, without problems, but I’m still not sure if that’s the right thing for me.
But in the end, it’s not that important. Important is that I get a normal kind of distance to him again and away from this circling of thoughts.
Hi Mila, you kinda figured it all out in your message. I don’t think you really needed inputs from LwL as you know yourself how you are best gonna handle this situation.
I think your original message yesterday sounded more lost/desperate than you probably actually felt, hence the replies you received. my message/pseudo advice was on basis of your LO escalating texting/affection more than the norm.
I still think distance and a good time away from messaging and phones in general brings so many benefits. Constant contact does not give any perspective or any time to decompress and reflect on self and relationships.
When can you really have time to do that if you are messaging every day or even couple of days.
Wishing you and everyone a great week!
Hi Imho,
no, I actually was lost and desperate and very thankful for the responses.
I might know myself deep down what is best, but I still feel urges to do the opposite, and messages from neutral but compassionate persons help enormously, sometimes only because I feel heard. (Does that make sense, grammatically?)
The feeling to be heard and taken seriously is something rare for the limerent soul, especially when there are barriers and you cannot tell anyone in your life about it, and it pushes my mind forward to find the right answer or at least move forward and not revolve in circles of doubt.
I hope you yourself are doing ok, Imho!
New week, new strength to care about the things that really matter.
Hi Mila, glad the comments helped on the weekend, and good always to get broad and different perspectives. You are absolutely heard and as usual great support here, to help get through those difficult days!
Thanks for asking on me.
I’m doing different things than normal this week. A bit stressful but a change is a good thing as I know it helps distance me a bit from all the fantasy LE nonsense. Helps, but not solves 😀
Mila, relapse is not a good thing, so it seems to me that the best way to end it is by respecting his family and going no contact. Period. Seems like you have to be the strong one, finding the strength to do the right thing for your self-respect and also that is the best gift for him so that he can focus on his family. I wouldn’t worry about his feelings being hurt. You have to save yourself. Hoping for the best for you!
Hi Jaideux,
Thanks for the clear message!
I would agree if it wouldn’t be for him being one of my best friends for decades, including families. Cannot go suddenly NC because of that and don’t want to. It would mean that I have lost my battle. I don’t want limerence to win and me to lose my best friend.
Also, it could be that he‘ll be my colleague again, and then it’s anyway not possible, then I would need a good (but limerent-free) relationship with him anyway.
If it sounded as if he had disclosed, he didn’t, he just sent a very warm message telling me that I‘m special for him, but was still in the „green“ zone of friendship.
My limerence started when he left my workplace and now his decision if he comes back or stays away is hanging in the air- this fear of losing one of my best people caused limerence to flare up and us clinging to each other a bit, but I still think it can go down to friendship again once he decided.
Chances are 80:20 that he stays away, so that would solve matters definitely. Even if he stays I think limerence would go down. I just cannot cope with this uncertainty of him leaving or not.
„ and also that is the best gift for him so that he can focus on his family.“
Thought about this one in terms of only the two weeks (as I said, sudden NC forever is for the moment out of the picture), but I think it would do the opposite- his thoughts would go to why I went nc instead of focus on his family.
I think the best for him is the feeling that everything is friendly on all fronts, and then he doesn’t have to think about it and can concentrate on his family and his decision.
But, as you said, I have to save myself too. For me, it’s also good if nothing dramatic happens now on the outside.
I should just divert my thoughts and time (and his decision) will do her thing, I’m kind of lucky that I have this decision coming from outside and not have to do it all myself.
Maybe I rely too much on it?
But am not capable of anything more at the moment.
Hi Mila
I understand those news of him reciprocating you are beautiful and at the same time upsetting.
That’s the dream of each limerent, but what are you going to do with this knowledge???? This is the kind of question Limerent Emeritus asks all the time to limerents. How are you going to act from now on? Do you have a realistic plan for the future for both of you? You’re in a very complicated and confusing situation now. Are you ready for the consequences of the LE exploding? It’s going to be painful… you, and only you can make a choice.
Relax and think it over when you’re calmed down. Hugs.
Hi Nisor,
I‘m sorry if it sounded as if he disclosed, as I wrote to Jaideux, he just sent a very warm and for him unusually clear text that I‘m a very special person for him.
Of course it was very exciting for my limerent heart, but it still could be „only“ friendship.
Even if it wasn’t, neither of us would do anything to disrupt or cheat on our families, of that I‘m 100% sure.
I just have to calm down, that’s true. I‘m already much calmer today, having had a nice family day yesterday.
And hugs to you too! Hope you are feeling good today and have a nice Sunday!
Hey Mila,
I am so, so glad that you had a good family day yesterday. It just goes to show that distraction works for reducing the ruminations. And reducing the ruminations really is the key to everything.
Things will get decided once and for all very soon – this indecision is a killer!
I am also not ruminating and have managed to regain neutral mindset again. Lets see what happens when I next have contact with him.
Let’s have a Happy Sunday, this week, rather than an anxious one!!
Much strength and well wishes to you.
Hi Bewitched,
great that you feel better and less ruminative (if that’s a word)!
Sunday goes ok so far. Will try to concentrate on living more healthy, I need it (too much caffeine and sugar again..)instead on limerent stuff.
Have a great day!
Hi Mila. I’m sorry you’re feeling low. Relapses can happen, take it from me.
I’m sorry if I don’t recall, but is your LO planning to move out for good? If that happens, it will give you a chance to go nc, and you may get some sort of closure, or at least start to feel better. Oh and one more thing, you’ll need to steer clear of lo interaction on social media.
I’m sure you can do 2 weeks nc. I did 6 weeks, nothing much from my side, it was a natural nc. Overall, my thoughts started to get better after the initial 1-2 weeks.
My LE is so emotionally charged even now, God knows what would happen if lo and I found out it’s mutual Limerence.
Sending you tonnes of strength!
Hi ABCD,
„ I’m sorry if I don’t recall, but is your LO planning to move out for good“
He left my work place last summer but is still in a sort of trial period at the new job in another town, for that period he and his family stayed in our town. He‘ll have to decide soon if he will move for good or return to my work place.
Since he left for family reasons that are still valid I don’t quite see why he would return, but he seems to be unable to decide. Still, he‘ll have to, and I think in either case I can tone down limerence. If he leaves, it will definitely end, I think. If he stays, it will be a bit more delicate to navigate, but it’s we worked together for a decade without being limerent, we can go back to that, I‘m sure. Regular exposure to him and his less perfect traits without anxiety to lose him will solve the problem.
But I guess he‘ll leave. I will be very sad then but it would mean a certain end of this vexing LE.
I lined out in my previous posts why I don’t think complete NC for 2 weeks would come across too dramatic and would stir up more than I‘d like to. I‘ll just not initiate and be polite.
Thanks for supporting me! I hope you are feeling ok this weekend?
BTW , steering clear of social media is not the problem here since he hardly ever posts something there, thank God..
Imho, Bewitched, Jaideux, ABCD
Thank you all so much ! I‘m so touched by your concerned and thoughtful messages.
I took Imhos advice without having read it, put the phone away and had a great day with my family. I will answer tomorrow!
And Nisor, of course!!
Good day Mila,
Great that you had a terrific day with the family.
Have you read the blog: Close study: limerent for a close family friend “? 1/13/2019
Wishing you courage and wisdom to sort out all this and a good outcome for all parties involved. Hope these 2 weeks pass quickly…without rumination.
I‘ve read it, but long ago, interesting to read again, especially the bit about disclosure making everything worse…
I met this pianist only shortly after a concert he played, two or three words exchanged, but he seemed very nice and gentle. He‘s goodlooking but not my type.
But he‘s a fantastic pianist, I really loved how he played. Very imaginative and sensitive, but with power.
Hi Nisor,
Thanks for sharing those posts. The first unfortunately does not apply. She’s not my ex. I tried to win her heart and failed rather epically, though I got way further than anyone would have bet. I’m a rather shy and insecure person. Being a short man never helps. I used a lifetime worth of courage and based on what I’ve told you there may have been some feelings at some level.
The second post cuts to the core. The one thing that I can’t swallow is the possibility with all that I did I was merely a nuisance. That was definitely worsened by her not accepting goodbye and then ghosting me.
In the decades since I’ve never been hurt once. You mentioned it seemed like I have a sensitive soul. The person who lived that did. Either that is gone or protected so well I’m not sure you could get to it. Not even my SO has access and I feel guilty about that because she should. It’s not because I still love my LO. It’s because I couldn’t survive that again.
I keep most personal relationships to a minimum. My work relationships are fantastic because they are value based and measurable.
If I ever sense an imbalance in someone else’s favor regarding effort, I’m out. Only my friend of decades can get away with the sense of ghosting. He’s terrible responding to texts and I have to regularly remind my self.
If I do sense hurt my only response is generally anger. I’m not a better man than I was before the experience, just different.
It probably would have good to have something like this back then. As it is I muddled through and relied on increasing introversion and reduced risk taking with people.
Thanks for chatting though. I do appreciate it.
@ John,
There’s a lot to unpack in your message. I wish I had the knowledge and tools , and the command of the English language to help you on this journey.
“As it is I muddled through and relied on increasing introversion and reduced risk taking with people.”
It breaks my heart to see you’ve withdrawn into a cocoon to protect yourself from being hurt again, and I really understand that. I swore to myself never to love again the way I loved my ex.bf/LO, but I didn’t go into a cocoon to stop me from trusting people, friends and new possibilities of a more mature relationship with a male. If anything, I took the whole episode as a lesson to learn to see things more realistically, If I make myself understood. I was afraid of being hurt again, and I kept my shields up, always alert of my vulnerabilities. I moved on, got married, have a good marriage; , I see you also got married, that’s some accomplishment! We don’t always get whom or what we want. Many at LwL blog got married without being in limerence, but have great marriages .Limerence is just an illusion, a fantasy we have to work on, I suppose. We’re all trying to figure this out…
Also, you mention , your only response to hurt is generally anger. Some work has to be done here. Apparently, you need some work with your emotions. Perhaps you didn’t go through a period of grief when felt hurt and abandoned by this girl/LO, you may have bottled it all up and now it’s showing up. There are “5 stages of grief “, others sites have 8 stages of grief, and what each one means, look it up in the internet and get some helpful information to help you understand your hurt. Getting to know yourself better is the surest way to finding peace over this.
On the possibility of just being a nuisance to this girl, by what you have posted about her, it seems you were not, because she was attentive and happy to have you around, something she didn’t have to feel obliged to do. She could very well have said to not come there anymore. If she ghosted you, probably, her new bf made her put up boundaries; you were a “threat” to him. You had something he didn’t have, and this girl appreciated it. You were shy and insecure as you say, maybe because of your stature? I’m petit, 5’2, and I have had gone out with guys shorter than me, I wasn’t interested in the height but the personality. This was not a beauty contest, but being understood and cared for. My LO was tall and handsome, but that was not what caught my attention, it was his personality. As a matter of fact, I thought nothing of him, until I started to discover his inner soul. That’s what is important in a relationship. The other things are mainly irrelevant. Some people have identity doubts and one have to work on it. There’s this woman who has a podcast named : MARISSA PIER, English therapist, I think she’s very good at getting people to increase their self esteem. Try it, you may like it.
Wishing you courage and strength, good health and a fantastic week.
Correction: name is, Marisa Peer, videos.
She’s a therapist .
Hi Nisor,
Thank you so much.
In terms of knowing myself, one thing is certain, I am most definitely an introvert. I can be outgoing with small groups that I am comfortable with and at work where the boundaries are well defined. In larger social situations and meeting new people I would imagine I’d probably be diagnosed with social anxiety. My SO actually finally got me to go to one of my work Christmas Parties last year. I had never gone to one since I got out of the Navy. Most people have different interests so I try not to talk about mine because if I get going I can talk your ear off.
Talking with the opposite sex has always been brutal for me and I only asked one girl out in high school and you know when the words don’t come out and it’s gibberish? I only thought that happened in movies. To that girls credit, she kept a straight face.
So I really put myself out there for my LO who I must admit I was attracted to physically at first. She was tiny, under 5 ft talk, dark hair and glasses. A look that my friends have come to know very well. She did fit great in my arms, I did love holding her.
I didn’t jump right back into my shell after but I did not ask anyone out for many years though. It was a slow “recovery” where I just felt more comfortable not engaging too much.
I did have a near LE with a married coworker but luckily caught myself and she distinctly noticed my change in behavior. Leading up to that I had been going out with her and her husband and another coworker regularly. One night she was upset with hubby, I think he looked at a cute waitress too long and she ended up dancing with me.
She noticed my change in behavior as I was very standoffish as did our other coworker. We went for a walk, I explained I was developing feelings and that I had to be very careful. We remained friends and that was that. We maintained our friendship until I switched jobs even double dating with my SO.
But that is a case where I got angry with myself and I think the results were quite effective.
As for being married, my SO is definitely not an LE. It’s not hugely passionate. We got married in our mid 30s so I just kind of settled into it. It’s pretty ordinary and day to day.
I have slowly started to reconnect with people who were in my life, not coincidentally about 30 years ago after my treatment including my best buddies from high school. But I’m not concerned if we lose touch or anything like that.
There was a true sense of abandonment with my LO that I’m not sure I’ll ever get over.
I’ve never spoken to a woman about my experiences. I had a female friend in the Navy who I’d swap duty with so I could go see her but that’s the extent. It is really nice talking with you about this since you can understand my perspective and this blog is the first time I’ve not written it off as just me being insane.
I hope, someday, you’ll be able to read my story, aspects are embarrassing but I’d love to hear what people whom I have not told in person think.
Thanks so much, have a super week.
Hi
John,
You made me laugh with: ‘when the words don’t come out and it’s gibberish’, ha, this is a strange thing that happens to most limerents
, if not all. The cat gets your tongue. It’s the same for both sexes. I don’t know why it happens and think no one can explain it with certainty . I think it’s because of the awareness that one exposing one’s vulnerabilities is fearful , and difficult to express your feelings to another person? But it’s a beautiful innocent feeling, isn’t it? I had an opportunity to have closure with my LO, after so many years of silence, when I made the first phone call, but I was dammed tongue tied all the time, I was shy like a school girl and trembling, confused and weak; something very strange for an elder person to go through. Just very ridiculous! I still can’t believe it!
So is life, right?
Also your comment on the blog , ‘I’ve not written it off as just me being insane’. Being insane is what most of all thought when hit with limerence. I was afraid for my mental health and was about to tell my SO. I was ready to consult a psychologist, but I would have to explain to SO why. We’re always together and I
don’t drive, hence he’d have to drive me around. No way!
About anger, there’s good anger and bad anger. Good anger when it’s for a good reason or purpose. Bad anger is when one loses control over something and gets to hurt oneself and other people, it brings conflict and destruction.
“There was true sense of abandonment with my LO that I’m not sure I’ll ever get over.”
I’m sorry it’s such a deep wound in your heart. Do you think therapy is necessary for you? I don’t think one can ever forget an LO or the love one once had with such intensity… the memories are imprinted deep in the brain and they come to the surface often enough as to not let you forget. It’s like a tattoo on your skin, indeleble.
Not passionate for the SO, well, there are limerents that married madly in love with their sweethearts, but it all went away with time passing. Love is a verb, the couple have to work on it constantly so as not to have the flame extinguished. Unfortunately, limerents or not, they all wind up getting bored of one another. There are countless of couples with “dead” bedrooms for decades , therefore the cheating . The middle age crisis hits almost every one, male and female. After all, it would be nice marrying someone one is madly in love with… It’s not true of all couples.
Many couples marry for rebound, others for convenience, money, still others for fame, or just to have a family or not staying alone, that is for companionship. None of that helps when one doesn’t get the one one wanted…got to live with that sorrow and acceptance and be grateful for what we have. What else can we do?
Stay well and strong 💪🏽 .
Hi John,
Re: stature, I am quite tall but have been attracted to plenty of men who were not tall and some were not as tall as me (by maybe 5 cms). My daughter is very tall and I hope that she will consider partners of all heights, otherwise she will lose out. When a person meets someone they like a lot, especially someone who is their ‘romantic archetype’, I think that many of the superficial physical attributes go out the window. A very common case in point would be baldness which I do not think bothers most women at all.
Secondly, I do want to throw out there a female perspective on some of the motivations of your LO all those years ago. She kept you hanging on while also getting back with her cheating ex boyfriend, right? To me, this sounds like classic immature behaviour and many of us have been there. Its nice to have someone who is lovely and dependable in your orbit, lavishing attention on you when another love interest is messing you about. There is nothing particularly noble about this behaviour, of course. And its horrible for the sincere suitor in to be in this ‘second place’ position. But I think lots of young or inexperienced people do this type of thing when they are figuring out what they want, romantically. “Do I want this nice and dependable guy or the other more risky option?” Its a difficult conundrum to navigate when inexperienced. Because its understandable, but not very nice, perhaps its not too surprising that she then ‘ghosted’ you later. Because she was not proud of stringing you along, or, not willing to risk the drama with a possibly angry ex.
Being away for long period of time due to your job (while also having little or no free time to socialise with friends and ,embers of the opposite sex) must have been very very hard on you. So I can imagine why it left such a large impression.
Nisor’s insight is really valuable because she has an LO that harks back over a long time ago and I find her comforting myself.
I would say that you need to be kind to yourself, first and foremost.
Sending all the best wishes.
Hi Nisor,
Funny you should mention bald. My hair has been relatively short since I was in the military and got shorter and shorter as my hairline receded. Once I began to shave it I wished I had done it sooner. It’s one of the few physical aspects I actually feel very confident about and hate if I don’t shave daily. I’m only 5’5” and while I don’t have to care it certainly had a negative impact growing up.
As for this being comforting. That is most definitely not the case. I was excited when I first discovered the term, read the book…hey that’s me I’m not alone. The honeymoon ended there. This site hasn’t told me anything I didn’t know deep down 32 years ago.
I should forget her, throw away her pictures, let it go. This is not comforting at all. I’ve gotten by telling myself all I needed was the goodbye I didn’t follow through on. That would have fixed everything. I’ve played that conversation over and over a million ways.
Fact is, and I’ve done some awesome things since, her memory still beats them all, not even close. Some was fantasy but it all happened. I probably never had a shot with her but damn I was happy when we were together. I’m so guilty of all of this stuff.
On my 21st birthday when I got to her house for the first time and her dad pulled me into the house, called her down and said stand next to that girl, you need a picture. Put your arm around her. I’d never met the man and had just driven 1/3 of the way across the country just to see his little girl. I carried that picture in my shirt pocket over a year. How do I give that up?
I’m a classis day dreamer, prone to fantasy and not living in the present. Probably the classic case for this limerence stuff.
Comfort, there is no comfort facing that. Obviously, no contact has not worked so my fantasies must go. UGH.
I merely appreciate having someone who understands better than most.
While there are embarrassing things in our story and after reading someone might think differently of me I would welcome that over never having told it.
I really do appreciate your perspective and chatting though I feel I’ve troubled you enough. You are the only one whom I really engaged with and as you can see, I can go on and on with my memories.
Thanks so much,
John
I had a bit of a setback this weekend. I called Momma, Morgan. Momma asked me “Can I ask you a question?” I knew it wasn’t going to be good. She asked me if I had remembered that the previous night I had fell off my side of the bed. And when she asked me if I was okay I called her Morgan following quickly with correcting myself with Momma. I told her than that I did not, honestly, and still don’t. I kinda spent the weekend kinda ruminating about it. I tried to distract myself with my gaming, a humorous post on facebook (which I rarely post on) and of course my worst enemy alcohol; to try and forget about it. It’s been my first major setback since I have been doing so well.
Momma just asked me if there was something going on. She didn’t get mad at me or upset. She was just asking if there was a trigger that set it off. And honestly I have not been thinking about her. I don’t know why that name came out of my mouth. But all she wanted to know was what was going on in my head. Not get angry at me for calling her by another woman’s name. Especially her’s. I continually prove that I don’t deserve this woman’s love.
Hi Adam,
don’t worry too much about it and give it a bigger meaning than it has. You say you honestly haven’t been thinking about her, so that’s that. Your subconscious threw the name up, but it doesn’t mean much.
I wouldn’t call it a setback!
Hi Adam,
I guess it was a bit of a set back, but you both handled it well. It sounds like you have a loving and patient wife to help you make sense of what happened. Maybe you shouldn’t avoid it this time. Can you process it instead?
I don’t know if this helps, but I’ve called my husband LO3’s name three times in the last few years. My closest brother shares a name with LO3 and I’m confident that one of those slip ups was about my brother and not LO3. One of the slip ups was from a random kid at my daughter’s school. My husband and I were on the yearbook committee and I had a question about a student whose name is LO3 and I accidentally called my husband that name while asking the question. The third time I called my SO LO3’s name could have been attributed to my brother or my LO3. I don’t know. I had spent the day with my brother and I also texted LO3 that day so I really don’t know who I was thinking about when I called my SO that name. I feel stupid every time it happens, but my SO is always nice about it. I don’t know if that helps. I thought you might like to know that you aren’t the only person who makes that mistake.
Hi Lovisa,
I’m glad you’re back . Hope everything is well with the family. I understand how difficult it is to solve some else’s problems. May God give strength and wisdom to you and family. May He keep you in His perfect peace.
Have beautiful blessed day. 💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽
Hi Adam. I think the name came up at a subconscious level, so it’s not a setback. I would say do not think too much about it.
Hi Adam,
I don’t think its useful to ruminate on this as it might just cement Morgan’s name in your head more than is necessary. My own personal experience of this is kind of a funny story – I have a lovely elderly neighbour who’s name rhymes with his dog’s name – there is only one letter is different between the two names, man and dog. I have managed to totally confuse my husband because I made a few jokes where I called the man by the dog’s name and vice-versa. My husband is not happy with me because he now finds it really difficult to get their names the right way around.
As you say, it popped out of your sub conscious, when ironically you had been doing very well and not thinking about Morgan very much at all.
I say continue not to think about her or her name and you will lower the risk of a Freudian slip!
Hi Adam,
Oops, a slip of the tongue and you get in trouble…not really, Momma is aware that you’re a repented limerent. She understands the triggers, that’s why she asked you, she was just trying to help. I’m aware you’re feeling guilty and concerned over this, but hey, these things happen, you don’t have to be afraid or defending yourself all the time. And making it worse by running to the darned bottle. I don’t know how much is enough of explaining how the unconscious works, one have no control of it! Momma probably knows that too. So, please relax and continue your life as usual. Remember , the blog is called: Living with Limerence for a reason , it takes time to get over an LE, if at all; we are all in the same boat, unfortunately…
Mixing up names is common , it happens to everyone. The problem is when it’s LO’s name, something I’m afraid of myself. I was once terrified , when I was ruminating all day long and calling LO’s name aloud, that I would somehow slip his name in a conversation with SO! It’s like we’re condemned for ever! Just relax, and if you think of her, so what?, no one should control our thoughts. And thanks God, thoughts are not visible…
Strength and courage my friend. And a warm bear hug from grandma.
Hey, Adam. I’d try not to worry about it too much, if you can, and especially don’t be so hard on yourself. Your wife just expressed concern for you, that’s all. Of course you deserve her love.
I know it was embarrassing, and unfortunate, but it’s almost like a slip of the tongue. The way the brain behaves is such a mystery, even after reading nearly every blog available on l.w.l.
A few weeks ago I went to a lunch party. A couple there have names that both begin with the letter “P”. I get them mixed up. I’m a bit out of touch with socialising and, when I saw them, I rehearsed their names in my head so that I wouldn’t get it wrong.
I called the first one I spoke to by the wrong name. It was because I was keyed up. He was irritated. It was embarrassing.
I know it’s not the same as what happened to you but I think our brains play tricks sometimes.
Take it easy and enjoy the love.
f
Dear Frederico,
Woah, sounds like you would absolutely hate me in real life 🙂
See my story above.
Imagine how much more difficult your lunch party would have been if someone had messed with your head like I did to my poor SO. The fence came down between our two houses and the two of them were out there for days, mending it together. All the while, my SO is second guessing himself so he didn’t mess up on my lovely neighbour’s name (while the dog was jumping about them in great excitement)…
When I make a mistake like that, I always say “I am so sorry, I am terrible with names, but I never forget a face…” (which is true) and people seem to forgive me.
No, Bewitched, I think I’d like you in real life. Your anecdote is very funny.
f
Thank you all for your support and kind words. I appreciate them all. I don’t know what is going on with my life. My wife and I talked at length Sunday evening about things in general. Where I am going with church. What to do to move both of us forward in a positive way for the whole family. I feel like I am on co-pilot in life. I am trying to do things purposefully and I think being here helps me find that purpose. In reading Dr L’s recent post it hurts me to know that people go through this. I don’t want people to have to pay the prices I have for what I have done. And the prices their families have to pay too. It’s not just a price for the limerent. I don’t want to hear people thinking about sacrificing relationships over limerence. Ugh this mid life $hit sucks.
Hi Adam,
” I am trying to do things purposefully and I think being here helps me find that purpose.”
You generously help others here on LwL and glad that is giving you purpose too.
Going back to your original message on the name slip at the weekend, I am thinking that being here on LwL and commenting here is keeping the name from your LE present – at least in your subconscious.
It just is that way, nothing dramatic or relapse or nothing like that, it’s just the human brain being the human brain it is.
I often have dreams incorporating things or people that I’ve interacted with or discussed on that day.
I had a crazy travel dream last night (which I won’t bore you with the details ) but it included passport security checks. This dream was all because I had to get details from my passport earlier than day to fill in a form.
Hope this makes sense.
Imho
I dream about work quite often. Even jobs that I have had many, many years ago. Work tends to be a common setting in my dreams. So maybe that’s why her name came to mind.
“Going back to your original message on the name slip at the weekend, I am thinking that being here on LwL and commenting here is keeping the name from your LE present – at least in your subconscious.”
I worry about that too. It’s like giving some money to a homeless person but thEn feeling bad because you can’t give like you would want to because you have a family to care for. I want to help others, but if it is a the sake of my own recovery?
I think my wife still checks in here even if she doesn’t comment. And I talk to her about the community and some of the developments with people, to get her opinion as the wife of a limerent. So I figure if she feels I am in too deep she will tell me. We talked a little last night about things too. So I know she knows I still come here. Hopefully I can find a balance.
I don’t think this lovely lady is 100% right in this instance , but her channel’s been exploding lately and she’s taken to covering limerence . She thinks that , for women , it’s all about an obsession with “the bad boy” , enjoy 😉
https://youtu.be/M0KW3zbpZcQ?si=sK-vKvNDwtV0tndm
Had to turn it off after one minute.
She hasn’t grasped the concept of limerence, or I haven’t. I , unfortunately a limerent, haven’t fallen for her „bad boys“ ever. Also, I simply cannot stand generalizations.
Sorry John🙈
I as a woman can tell you that no, for „us women“it’s not always about an obsession for a „bad boy“.
And now I insulted you because you are called Jim and not John. Apologies!
Hi Mila !
Hope you’re well , no worries , I’ve been called worse than “John” ! Thought I’d throw it out there to spark a little conversation , I think this lady Karyn is possibly projecting her own “reasons” (mental justification) for “limerence” (physically cheating on her younger boyfriend) out there onto her own viewers , i’m sure the comment section is going to make for interesting reading !
Hi Jim,
She doesn’t know what’s she’s talking about. Didn’t do her homework. Probably, the bad boy she’s referring to , she means a “narcissist”. The content of the video is an insult to good men out there as well as women. She doesn’t sound professional to me, just repeating herself, trying to make a point she’s not convinced of. Just ridiculous, not worth our time.
Good night 💤 and thanks for the info.
Agreed, Nisor. A ludicrous and stupid video, as expected.
I sat through almost the whole video. She is wrong. I am attracted to good men. She was also wrong about many other points. I don’t think she understands limerence. I can’t take her seriously.
Thanks for sharing, Jim!
Thanks Lovisa , great to see you here again , I was getting worried about you . How’s things going with your mum and sister ? Glad you found the video interesting – if you sort the comments on that video by newest you might “recognise” the poster “Bob” in the blue shirt someone you might know by another name 😉
Hi Nisor and Bewitched,
My last response was more to bewitched response. Thanks for adding. I appreciate it.
As for therapy, I’m not sure. This was all so long ago and it feels like it’s just part of me.
I’m happy to say that things aren’t dead in the bedroom as it were. My SO and I have a good relationship. I’m not great sharing my feelings but I think our marriage has improved with time as we’ve learned better how to cope with disagreements and such.
I’d never cheat and oddly I have my LO to thank for that to a small degree. My one comment when she asked what I thought about her new fiancé was I don’t like that he cheated on you. No one deserves that. I’d hate to bump into her and not be able to look her in the eye on that one. I’d want her to be proud of the man I am if I had nothing else from her.
Oh and as for why the cats got your tongue happened. Completely my fault. I told one of my more confident friends I was going to ask this particular girl out. We were standing outside the locker rooms for high school sports. She walked by, I chickened out, she walked by again. Same thing. My friend then says if you dont stop her I will. And that’s exactly what he did. Put me right on the spot. My face felt as hot as the sun.
I composed my self, some unintelligible nonsense. Silence. I took a deep breath, composed and tried again. More gibberish. Stopped, recomposed and got it out. Had 5 friends behind me trying to contain themselves.
How that poor girl kept a straight face I’ll never know.
I won’t lie it was pretty funny though I never spoke to her again. It was tough. She was in my homeroom and definitely my first limerence experience.
Hi John,
First and foremost, you should not feel like you are ‘burdening’ anyone on here with your memories or any issues that you may be having in processing / letting go of this LO. We are all frequent posters and tend to go around and around in circles (have you noticed?!).
@Mila says that its like a snail shell, going around and around, feels like going nowhere, but hopefully still getting closer to the exit.
I have not yet gotten a sense of the extent to which this LE is hurting you, though. You mentioned that it felt like it was ‘part of you’ and that the most painful thing that you can imagine is having to let it go? If that is the case, then you probably can’t hope for recovery, right, as its not actually what you want?
One of the fundamental thing I have learned on LwL is that our LEs are self-imposed patterns of thought that we have basically ‘trained our brains’ on our LOs. Hence, it is in our power to de-train the brains again. Even if that is fiendishly difficult. Its particularly difficult to de-train our though processes if the LE is helping us to self-medicate against stress, or is providing a level of validation and self worth, or is feeding our most fundamental drive to rescue another person,…etc. Self reflection and (potentially) therapy have helped some of the posters get over their LEs. While some of us are still stuck in the mire where we are not always sure if we want to let go (for me it is some days yes, some days no….).
Let me first apologize if my previous post which was defensive and to Nisor as I thought I was responding to her. These can be a little hard to follow on a phone. I thought it was from Nisor and end where you referred to Nisor, looked like it was in the third person and I completely misread it.
As for how much hurt my LE is causing. That’s a tough one. I’m not sure I know because if I break it into two distinct phases, one where I had whatever relationship we had that was pretty much catastrophic. I’ve never felt passionate about a person since and dont know if it’s even possible.
The second phase is pretty much my entire adult life. The last time I saw her I was 22. I’m 54 now and I don’t recall a time where I haven’t wanted to see her again. I basically don’t know what it is to not be thinking about her at some point during the day.
Now my roommate from the Navy was kind enough to let me know we returned from Iceland on Aug 17, 1991. Which means the last day I saw her was Aug 25. A quick google tells me that’s 11,902 days! And of those maybe 50 where I was so busy or otherwise occupied that I made a day without thinking or fantasizing in some way.
It’s also almost 2/3 of my life and quite honestly there are times now when I think, whew probably got another 30 years to go, I’ve got this. But there are also days when I go to bed and say I just want to fall asleep in one of my memories and that’s it.
By most measures, I’m successful. Very good job, could retire anytime if I didn’t have a crazy hobby building an airplane in my garage which I’m lucky enough to have an SO who lets me do. I have a daughter about to go to college at a very good school. I should be very grateful and generally I am.
I was very excited when I found this term in a Facebook meme. I read the book in a single night and loved the first 2 chapters and hated the third. We know how many days I’ve been no contact. Obviously, that didn’t do the trick. Largely because I failed to say goodbye and ended getting ghosted. This was particularly problematic because between when I first asked her out and she agreed and when we actually ended up going out there was a bit of a time gap and I went through quite a lot to get first “date”. Oddly, it should not have happened but her dad loved the lengths I went to and she was fairly impressed as well. But that gap and stuff made this ending not on my own terms really bad and though I tried to call. Eventually the phone service ended and she had moved. She was lost again.
I know I’m a fool for even trying. I was in some ways too successful.
When I read on here that no contact and stopping the fantasies is the way, I know it to be true but I just can’t imagine letting go. It’s like when you’ve gotten so deep in a lie you just have to stick with it to save face. The hardest thing is that closure isn’t real. That’s been my thing forever now.
I’ve gone on and on here. Thanks for listening.
@John
No worries. I noticed you got me mixed up with Bewitched post. That’s fine, no problem.
It amazes me you’re 2/3rds of your life thinking (ruminating?) about LO! That’s a long time! I started ruminating about LO two years ago, all the previous years I didn’t think or dreamed of him; that would’ve been unbearable and I’d have ‘leaked’ at some point. That is: my SO would have noticed. That’s how strong these passions are!
Do you think you used LO fantasy as a mood regulator or life stimulant? Or is it some kind of melancholy you’re facing? Maybe you’re trained yourself to depend on it. That’s some kind of strong attachment, person addiction, something greater stronger than yourself!! Or maybe, one’s life is somewhat dull so one escapes to fantasy land with LO.
On NC not helping forget LO, I agree, but what else is there to do?
For you as well as forme, it’s that there was no closure, as well as for everyone else that is not reciprocated or have unrequited love. And it lingers more if one doesn’t let go of the fantasy. One doesn’t want to
stop it, it’s a panacea. It has consequences on our mental and physical health, for the hurts of the mind weep through the body…
There was a time, the first ten months of experiencing limerence, I felt very melancholic and life was joyless without having LO , nothing was pleasant to me anymore. It’s a bad place to be! Fortunately , the awful thoughts suddenly receded and I recovered some of my executive brain. For I was in ‘pilot mode’ all ten months . I say, the monster let go of me… or I might have gone mad. Thanks God! I’m not out of the woods yet, but the bad days are less now. Don’t think I’ll ever forget this terrible/sweet /sour ride, it’s so ingrained in my
mind, impossible to not remember it from now on.
I’m glad you have a daughter and a hobby. Some expensive hobby that is. What are you building , a Cessna ? I had a bf with a plane, but his mother told me not to go with him on the plane because he was a careless flyer and she was terrified every time he went on that plane. One time he landed on a highway in Florida because he was running out of gas! I don’t care for risky adventures… I’m a 🐔 chicken!
Here’s a good blog to read:
“Why can’t I get over my first love”
July 31/21
Have a great afternoon.
Hello friends. As we all navigate through our LEs, I seek your advice on two issues that have been on my mind for some time.
i) How to react better to LO cold behavior. It happens that we may generally feel low after a “cold” LO interaction. Perhaps LO does not greet us or ignores us. Of course, this may be our perception of the situation. Either way, this leads to feeling low, in my case, for a couple of days. The good thing is that the mind starts to feel better, till the next such interaction, atleast. So, what’s the best way to handle these post cold interaction blues?
ii) How to not feel jealous over LO. I tend to get jealous when LO chats warmly or jokes with someone else in front of me. I know its wrong for me to think like this, but it creeps up eventually, again leading to the blues.
Both these scenarios can be solved by being NC or LC, but that is not happening. Would really be thankful for advice on how I can handle the above situations better. Thanks in advance!
Hi ABCD,
I‘m sure there are some short-term solutions like distracting etc, but to solve both problems you should move LO to another place in your mind.
Her cold behavior can only control your mood when your mood is dependent on her, and jealousy can only hit when she seems to belong to you in a certain way.
I know it’s easy to write stuff like that, and managing to solve that would most probably mean managing to get rid of limerence.
But to work on not being dependent on her for mood regulation and to realize that she doesn’t play a role in your life where you could be jealous of anything, is the only thing that can solve it, no?
Not sure as always, if I‘m the person to dole out advice though.
I feel with you on both problems.
Thanks Mila. Yes, what you said is true – I am using her for validation, and she does not belong to me also. This is the very crux of it. Now, to make my mind believe this 🙂 . Jokes apart, yes, I do need to reinforce these point to myself periodically. Thanks again!
I wish I had some great wisdom on this for you but it never worked for me. My LOs behavior never met my expectations. Her indifference towards me always seem to eventually come through and I would feel hurt and let down. I could never settle in to just going with the flow with her.
I am now in the middle of a pretty strict LC strategy, mainly to try to stop the ruminations over our personal interactions. I effectively have no personal relationship with LO at the moment though we interact a few times a day over work things. But I have accepted I can’t be a friend to her at really any level.
I can’t say it’s easy, I feel heartache and grief a lot of the time, but it does help a lot with the ruminations which is my main issue.
I wish you well. It’s damn hard and I’m not feeling so positive at the moment.
Thanks Speedy. Our situations are pretty similar in that we both need to interact with LO on a regular basis. I can relate to the low feeling that you must feel post your LO meetings, I got the same situation going on over here. Your advice of keeping it strictly professional makes sense. In my case, it gets harder as LO will say playful things that gets my rumination activated. I mean, if she would not talk to me or speak professionally, then it would hurt in the short term, but reduce the ruminating. In any case, need to be strong to wade through this. I wish you lots of strength as you go through your LE Speedy.
If your LO is outgoing and initiates a lot, I can understand how that can be tough. My LO is quite introverted and a touch socially awkward. She will rarely initiate with me so it’s really up to me whether we interact much or not. If I do initiate I can really get her talking and she can be really engaging and fun. But then I expect reciprocal initiation and personal interest in me on her part and it never really happens. I like 50-50 effort/ interest in my personal relationships which is why I get along so well with this other woman in my office that I have become good friends with.
Lol…quick update for today. I gave in and initiated some light personal banter with LO today. It’s so weird, I can initiate conversation and her face will light up and she can be very in the moment with me. It can seem like she is so interested in all I have to say with tons of smiles and eye contact and full attention. Felt quite that way this morning after about 2 weeks of not talking anything but immediate work stuff. Sometimes it feels better just to get that need for slight connection out of my system, but I need to be careful since I broke the ice, not to ramp up the interactions. Best to go back to detaching for a while.
What a funny game LE management can be.
Dear ABCD,
I’d like to offer my perspective (it may not be useful, and I really do not want to make things worse, but here goes).
You said before that you caught the glimmer from your LO because she gave you lots of special attention. Also she has a friendly and warm personality and she complements your more shy and quiet personality. You have also been trying to manage your limerence by not initiating contact.
I think that it is very possible that she has noticed this withdrawal on your part, has been slightly hurt by it and has decided to give you a little more cooler response than usual.
In addition / alternatively, you mentioned some tension – it is highly possible that if there is tension between your LO and your SO, this is potentially linked to you (somehow) and your LO is cooling off because she does not want to cause issues in your marriage.
The reason I am suggesting all of this is that I personally find that rationalising my LO’s behaviour helps me. When I can see why he is behaving a certain way, I don’t take it so personally. This also applies to the feelings of jealousy. Maybe try telling yourself that there are several rational possibilities 1) she wants to make me jealous, 2) she doesn’t want to upset my LO and is giving me a wide berth, 3) she is spreading her attention to other men to distract from the focus on me, or even, 4) she has become sick of our dynamic, 5) she is a little bit of a flirt and slightly less attractive to me because of it, etc.
I have experienced a pang of jealousy myself once or twice but always thought it was an opportunity to get over my LO, because if I saw him flirting with another woman, I think I would instantly lose interest in him. If I look deep into my own heart, I know that this LE is all about having the validation of his attention and if that goes away (or is displaced), he’s almost outlived his usefulness. Shocking, isn’t it?! This is me being deliberately harsh so as to get over him. I have also been looking at unflattering photographs of him. And its working. Not devaluing him, just taking him down off that pedestal.
Possibly what you are experiencing is classic push and pull dynamics when there is a mutual attraction but its not viable due to non availability of both of you. Could you use this sensation of jealousy in your favour, somehow?
The reason I said that I hope not to make things worse is that I don’t want to encourage you by suggesting that your LO is ‘into you’, even if she is. One of the great unsolved mysteries of the universe is “whether LO is into me” and none of us here are ever, (ever), going to solve this question, to our satisfaction anyway.
Wishing you lots of positive thoughts, ABCD.
Hello Bewitched. Thanks a lot for your detailed response. Wow, your reasons for jealousy are so comprehensive. Perhaps, they are all true!
You are right – rationalising LO behavior is helpful, as it may explain some of their actions.
If I were to asses the situation as objectively as I can, I would say that we are mutually limerent, and cannot do anything because of the natural barriers. So, in that sense, it does not really matter whether we are into each other – right, as the end result seems to be that we are not acting on our thoughts.
Will work on trying to be more stoic, and weathering through this, focusing on the ground reality, and not the “perceived” one. I am feeling a bit better today, due to nc since last interaction. Lets see how the next one plays out.
ABCD, hi
We call Speedwagon and LIS to the rescue ‘operation’!
There’s not much you can do to stop the blues of the lows. Do you do some crying over these things? LIS has cried a river over his LO, and he’s reciprocated! So has Speedwagon. There’s no pills for this ‘limerence ailment’, unfortunately. I think you have to convince yourself that you have no entitlement over LO, she’s not yours to control her behavior , she’s free to do as she pleases, ouch, that hurts. What a mind teaser this limerence can be! Like the Wizard of Oz, said: “ hearts are not practical unless they are made unbreakable “.
Not being able to go full NC is a killer, you need to get strength where there’s none. So courage is all I can say, not much help from me… so sorry. Hugs
Nisor calls, I answer… I’ve been thinking a lot lately about some of the principles of stoicism, in particular the idea of doing my best in everything that I can control and letting go of everything I can’t control… or in other words focusing all my energy and attention on the process rather than worrying about the outcomes, knowing that if I pay attention to process and do my best as often as possible, then most of the time the outcomes will be alright and when they’re not, I can live with it because I know I did my best. Also remembering that life is long and some seeds I plant today might not grow for a long time but the planting still matters and eventually they’ll bear fruit, or sometimes the seeds never do sprout but I can plant new seeds, the important thing is to just keep trying and some stuff won’t really pay off but a lot of other stuff will so it’s all good…
Applying this to my relationship and interactions with LO, I’m trying to just focus on what I do and not on how she responds. I can control how I act towards her – I can be kind and compassionate and caring and always try to do the right thing for her. And that’s all I can do! I can’t control her responses, nor would I want to (how boring would life be then!). Some times she’ll be warm towards me, sometimes she’ll be withdrawn or cold – I can’t control that. I can seek to understand her reactions, but I can’t control them, and anytime I try it just brings me pain and misery…. But if I know that my actions toward her were good, then I don’t have anything to feel bad about. And then I can think about my next actions. If she’s being warm and friendly, I can be warm and friendly back and enjoy positive interactions while being diligent about not crossing lines I don’t intend to cross. When she’s being cold and withdrawn, I can give her space and not act desperate/anxious/needy and just focus on doing other things… like last week she was avoiding me all week and I actually just mostly forgot about her and worked on a bunch of cool projects I’ve been thinking about for awhile and got a bunch of good stuff done. And sometimes I did think about her and wondered (like I always do when she withdraws) if she’d ever come back to me or if this was the final withdrawal, and I actually felt pretty much at peace with it either way, like I’ve been feeling that if she did decide to end things for good, I would always feel good about how I treated her and acted toward her from the start of our relationship to the finish and I could always look back on this time in my life and feel ok about it. And of course I’d rather continue a relationship with her and enjoy our talks and of course I miss her when we’re not talking, but that’s not really in my control so I have to just let it go.
I was thinking the other day that “everything matters, and also nothing matters”, I don’t know where that phrase popped into my head but it’s been bouncing around in there for the last few days. It’s like, every little thing I do might have effects on other people and the world that I can’t even begin to understand right now, so I should always try to do my best at everything, whether it’s some routine task at work or helping SO with the chores at home or giving guidance to my kids or saying some encouraging words to LO when she’s down, all of that matters! And in the moment I’m doing it, it’s the only thing that matters. But at the same time… most of what I spend all my time worrying and stressing about now won’t really matter at all in a year, and none of it will matter in 100 years when we’re all dead and gone, so really why get too stressed about little things like why LO hasn’t texted me back in 4 days because by this time next year, a million other things will have happened in my life and I won’t care at all that LO treated me coldly from March 20th to March 25th 2024 or whatever…
Or another little example from my marriage this week – I pretty much spent the whole weekend putting in work at home while SO laid on the couch watching tv and playing on her phone totally checked out.. I took care of the kids all weekend while also tidying up the yard, doing all the laundry, washing the dishes, cleaning the bathrooms and the kitchen, sweeping the floors, and cooking the meals, and pretty much all I got for feedback was some complaints about part of the dinner that SO didn’t like and not a word of thanks for anything else. And I was feeling pretty grumpy on Sunday evening, but then I was like “why am I feeling grumpy? I enjoyed spending time outside in the yard, I had some fun times with the kids, I actually really enjoyed eating the dinner I cooked, I like how the house looks all clean and tidy, and I tired myself out good so I’ll sleep well tonight. Why’s it really matter what anyone else says or didn’t say, I’m happy with my own actions today and that’s good enough!”
So that’s what I’ve been thinking about lately – just try to do good things whenever possible and then just let it go and watch the results with almost a detached sense of curiosity rather than a burning need for control. Certainly a lot easier said than done much of the time, but I think it’s a principle worth working on and striving for.
Hi LiS,
I love these thoughts.
I will think about them and maybe they are the way for me too.
While I don’t think I want to develop a „detached sense of curiosity“ because I fear that it would mean I get detached from loved ones in other emotional areas too, something more stable and staying with myself instead expecting others to behave in a certain way sounds like a solution for many things.
Thanks for the insightful post!
Also, LiS,
I was thinking about your SO on the weekend.
Maybe she‘s home more than you during the week and does work around the house, and on the weekends she needs a break from that, and while your way of relaxing is activity, her way of relaxing is lying on the couch and doing nothing.
I just want to say that it’s also good to keep in mind that people are differently wired and one cannot blame someone to act differently from how oneself would act in the same situation.
Thanks for the very useful post, LiS.
“If she’s being warm and friendly, I can be warm and friendly back and enjoy positive interactions while being diligent about not crossing lines I don’t intend to cross. When she’s being cold and withdrawn, I can give her space and not act desperate/anxious/needy and just focus on doing other things… like last week she was avoiding me all week and I actually just mostly forgot about her and worked on a bunch of cool projects I’ve been thinking about for awhile and got a bunch of good stuff done”.
This is golden, and is something that I will definitely keep in my mind. In fact, your principle of doing what one can, and not worrying about the consequences has its roots in eastern philosophy as well. We can only do what’s in our control – right? What’s not in our control – what can we do about that?
As you said, implementing this principle is not easy, but is definitely worth striving form, as it can allow us to be more at peace with ourselves.
Hi LIS,
I like your post, it’s wonderful and inspiring. Keep up the good work. Time teaches us all how certain things cannot be changed, instead ,time brings us to realize that it is us who have to change. Time cures all, eventually , we learn the lessons, the school of life is the best teacher.
I see, with a smile , that you keep exact records of days LO is indifferent… ha!
…”why get too stressed about little things like why LO hasn’t texted me back in 4 days.” Or …and I won’t care at all that LO treated me coldly from March 20th to March 25th or whatever…”
You’re so cute, I wish my LO were like you when it comes to details. I have trouble keeping dates and times if I don’t purposefully write them down. Like for instance, I don’t remember the exact month we met or the month of the break up . BUT I recalled every single word we said! I remember conversations at different points in the relationship of three years as if it was yesterday. The place, the colors, what I was wearing etc. Strange, isn’t it?
I’m so sorry SO didn’t even thanked you for all the work you did home. You must’ve been exhausted by night time! No wonder you’re feeling grumpy. But your attitude was correct on feeling good about it. No acknowledgment by SO of your input feels bad. You’ll be surprised the impact a little things like “thank you” has on a person’s heart or mind. It gives one incentive to do it again. These are the little details that get lost in a long term relationship. One is taken for granted and politeness disappears . My SO is very polite and always says ‘please and thank you’ when asking for something or when I do something for him. I’m the grumpy one …
Wishing you all the best . Hugs
Awesome post Lost in Space!
I had been about to add post script to ABCD which was this: I think that limerence is very selfish. Mutual limerence is mutually selfish. We think that we are interested in the other person, but really, we are only interested in our fantasy of them and what that say about or does for us! This helps me get over my (mutually limerent?) LO because we are both just being selfish in indulging this.
Now you come along with a very unselfish view and ruin my hypothesis! Haha.
Well, maybe its different when there is a ‘real’ friendship there and you actually know the other person very well. Like you, LiS, and Mila, and maybe a few others of us here.
Whereas, I get the feeling that it might be different for ABCD and myself. We do not know our LOs very well and have built up a fantasy person out of them for our own (selfish) means?
Bewitched: “Now you come along with a very unselfish view and ruin my hypothesis! Haha.”
I wouldn’t actually say that I’m unselfish. I want lots of stuff for myself… I want to be happy. I want to feel at peace. I want to avoid anxiety and heartbreak and pain. I want to feel fulfilled. I want to be stimulated and do interesting things and learn cool things and have adventures. I want SO to like me and love me and respect me and treat me kindly. I also want LO to like me and love me and respect me and treat me kindly. That’s actually pretty selfish to want 2 women to love me, right?!?
But I think what I’m trying to work on is really understanding that the best way to have all the things I want for myself is to stop trying for all those things and stop worrying about all those things, and just focus on the things that are in my immediate control and being present in the moment and being the best person I can and doing the best I can in whatever moment I find myself in, and then trust that everything’s going to turn out the way it should… and I know that if I work hard and do good things, then most outcomes will turn out in a way that make me happy and sometimes they won’t but that’s ok too because there’s always tomorrow and more chances to do new things and experience new things.
I’m trying to work on gratitude and feeling thankful for all the good things in my life. And I think that a big part of that is trying to eliminate expectations, or at least to uncouple actions from expectations. I think that if I do things expecting a certain result, then I eliminate the opportunity for gratitude. If I get the thing I expect, then I don’t feel gratitude because I feel like I just got what I deserved, and if I don’t get the thing I expected then I feel resentment. On the other hand, if I just do the right thing simply for the sake of doing the right thing and don’t expect anything back, then the possible outcomes are that I don’t get anything back and that’s fine because I wasn’t expecting anything anyways, or I do get something back and I then feel gratitude because I wasn’t expecting it and it feels like a gift.
So like yesterday for example, I did something nice for LO that was helpful for her. And I told myself that I don’t expect anything from her in return, that I enjoyed doing this thing for her, it felt good to do it for her, and the pleasure I took from doing it for her is the only reward I need and the only reward I expect. And that’s a good place to be! Because then if she’s in avoidant mode and I don’t hear anything back from her, that’s totally fine because I already got my reward just from doing the act of service. And if she does respond and expresses her thanks or shows me some extra warmth, then I can feel grateful for it because I wasn’t expecting it or demanding it and it’s just a nice little gift I received from her (she did end up sending me a thank you text later in the day and had a couple moments of warm banter before she went home for the evening).
I also really like the idea of planting good seeds and watering them and then just having faith that at least some of them will grow and bear good fruit at some time in the future… but not just sitting there every day watching the soil to see if the seeds are starting to sprout, agonizing every day about whether they’ll grow or not, feeling anxiety and despair every day they don’t…
When I was talking to LO yesterday, she told me that she’s been feeling pretty good recently, pretty calm and at peace with herself, in particular she’s felt comfortable being alone with herself for long periods of time because she’s just felt better about herself, which is really good for her because she hasn’t been feeling the constant push-pull of resenting her SO when he’s around but feeling lonely and empty when he’s away. And I know a lot of it is the work she’s been doing on herself, but I think it’s fair to say that some of it also has to do with the last couple years of me consistently being loving and caring and affirming to her and always trying to support her and build her up… so that was nice to hear and felt like a nice little thing for me to be grateful for.
Hi LiS. I forgot to talk about this in my last post to you. Its great that you helped around the house and did the bunch of stuff. I am sure you would have felt good about it. Good job!
Hi LiS,
Thank you for expanding on your ideas. It is certainly food for thought. To be honest, the reason it resonates so much is because I have felt in the past very similarly towards my LO and life in general. I have been very stoic and calm and adopting ‘what will be, will be’ mindset. I also remember posting to Frederico, at one point, that all the love I feel for my LO and my SO is doing me good because it’s helping me connect with my softer side. And I was certainly not expecting anything in return for that at the time when I wrote it. But my mind is quite slippery. If I look back now with a critical eye, I have to question whether this feeling was really only possible when I had enough objective evidence of LO’s affections to be able to be so calm (if you know what I mean). In addition, I am always sure of SO’s affections. So when we feel secure, it is quite easy to be stoic. Is this feeling of security from people who are important to us part of the solution?
I recall that you also had a lot of validation of your importance in LO’s life quite recently as you two had a ‘big chat’ (or three!).
The bible says “You reap what you sow”, which in the superficial sense is unhelpful here. It is better to give and not have any expectations of receiving back, of ‘reaping’ back from those kind and selfless acts.
I prefer the analogy of planting seeds, as you said
” also really like the idea of planting good seeds and watering them and then just having faith that at least some of them will grow and bear good fruit at some time in the future… but not just sitting there every day watching the soil to see if the seeds are starting to sprout, agonizing every day about whether they’ll grow or not, feeling anxiety and despair every day they don’t… ”
Yes, that is true. And some days, when we feel secure, it probably easier to put it into practice. The challenge is to keep on maintaining it as a mantra, and to ride it out when things go wrong.
Bewitched,
„So when we feel secure, it is quite easy to be stoic“
Thanks for that post. In limerence it’s so difficult to know if what you are feeling is genuine or biased, one stumbles from one illusion to the next.
Thanks Mila.
I am going through a real analytical phase at the moment. Its helping me to remain quite neutral and I think it is giving me a good perspective. Perspective is everything, for me, because I lose perspective when exposed to my LO. He makes me lose my mind. But with some time away from him, the perspective magically reappears after a few weeks ….(we have had no common work stuff recently)
This ability to be stoic and calm despite everything LO does (as well as everything that SO does or does not do) is a great solution. Its a very sweet way of relying more or intrinsic beliefs and one’s own character for one’s self worth – rather than on extrinsic stimuli or external realities’ (which may not be realities at all, but more a matter of perception)
I am looking forward to lots of chocolate over Easter. And I hope you also let yourself off the leash, Mila!
Bewitched,
what leash? I‘m completely off the leash!😂
Even considered asking Dr L again for a post about the relation between limerence and sweets-addiction…Including alcohol and coffee, maybe…
These last two I managed to quit for a while, but I‘m still on the upper limit of my tolerated weight (tolerated by myself, I mean), which would be ok if it would be through healthy food, but no. That makes me a bit cranky.
Of course it doesn’t help that LO and me are on low contact- I know it was the plan and it seems we both had the same plan, but it‘s a bit bleak, and I have to stop myself from the usual stuff- wondering why he is on low contact, if it’s for the same reason as me (he needs this time and space with his family)or if he thinks I don’t like him that much (having responded a bit awkwardly on his nice text before he went on the trip)…
Anyway, I do know that it’s all for the best and still won’t initiate any contact.
I like your analytic phase, keep posting your thoughts, especially as I‘m in a lethargic state and not capable of own thoughts.
There’s a family event coming up for me including a trip, it’s bound to be distracting, I just hope it all goes well and no fights or old grudges cropping up…
Wish you all happy Easter holidays!
Hi Bewitched, check you being all in control with perspective and philosophical! Liking all this. The reduced contact indeed brings normal and calm as well as some lows. Glad it’s going well, I’m taking notes !
I resisted making contact with LO today. (It’s pathetic to admit these stupid wins, isn’t it)
Hell, why should I always be the one to initiate – was my mantra today !
LO was showing lots of online availability all day on 2 platforms, which of course I read as LOs invitation “Imho, here I am available, please contact me, ask me how I am, ask about my weekend plans etc”
Not today. Maybe next week.
Hey Imho & Mila!
Delaying tactics are good, Imho. I have delayed things many times and its amazing how the urge to reach out can just dissipate (for a while, anyway). And Easter is like Christmas all over again because its an invitation to reach out to LO and ask about their plans. I never reached out to my LO at Christmas and I plan on maintaining that over Easter. But gosh, if I look back at the Christmas LwL posts, there were a lot of them from me. Even on Christmas Day (😭). But if it helps to post on LwL instead of reaching out to LO, then I am prepared to do it no matter how sad that seems!!
I wish you both all the best for the coming weekend and I expect that I shall be posting here quite a bit – as therapy. Now is maybe not the time to give up chocolate Mila… but if you like sweet things, maybe wean yourself onto sweet veg like sweet red peppers or carrots or peas. I have managed to do this and it works a treat.
X
@Bewitched
“In addition I am always sure of SO’s affections. So when we feel secure, it is quite easy to be stoic. Is the feeling of security from people who are important to us part of the solution?”
You bet! One feels more secure when there are two handling a situation or a problem; or when we have someone to fall back on. No question about it.
I was very decisive when I had to break up with bf/Lo in spite of loving him so much, but I had to move on. And I did, felt like a victory over my feelings. But, I had the support of a very good friend. If I were alone I don’t think I could have done it . She didn’t have to do anything, but her presence was enough to encourage me. We had a ball going to the opera, Broadway shows, ballets, museums etc; things I didn’t do with LO. I loved him a lot but he was boring, not too much action. And I couldn’t do these things because he was jealous even of my friends, and I didn’t want him to be upset with me. I didn’t fight for my rights, so I kept quiet, but the pot was boiling…
With the LE, I’m happy I have SO waiting to hold me and give me strength under any circumstances,(even though he doesn’t know) he adores me. I’m grateful for his care and love. I have been a faithful wife all the days since we got together. He calls me the princess!
Have a great weekend. I’m going away to the shores for a few days.
Dear Nisor,
This sounds really nice and I totally understand why you left your bf/LO at the time:
“We had a ball going to the opera, Broadway shows, ballets, museums etc; things I didn’t do with LO. I loved him a lot but he was boring, not too much action. And I couldn’t do these things because he was jealous even of my friends, and I didn’t want him to be upset with me. I didn’t fight for my rights, so I kept quiet, but the pot was boiling…”
You do seem like such an adventurous sort, I cannot imagine you being able to survive with an LO who was not go-getting and with that sense of adventure. It seems you needed something that he couldn’t give you?
I also broke up with someone I loved dearly when I was younger. He gave me a lot of security and we laughed and laughed so much. But we ended up being more like friends than lovers, so, as painful as it was to break up with him, I was able to move forward without too much regret. It took me another 4 or 5 years to meet someone good, stable, as well as ticking the boxes that I needed for my ‘romantic archetype’. I actually still see that old SO from time to time and have never regretted moving on.
I am actually scared to have a dream that shakes me out of my happy complacency, like you did, though. That must have been some dream! Do you still replay it? No need to answer, I am just wondering aloud.
Have a wonderful few days away with the family. I hope the weather is kind. Happy Easter!
Hi Bewitched and Imho,
I started a post three times and deleted it. I‘m somehow very indecisive what I think about what’s the best way to behave.
I think you are of course right in delaying contact, but me, I had a bit too often the experience that fighting and forcing myself, or counting how often he initiated contact and how often me etc., made me feel bad and let me ruminate much more, and didn’t really help. When I didn’t fight and just texted I could forget about it much faster.
But that might apply to my special case of limerence for a friend, where texting is anyway a normal occurrence.
It’s probably also a dangerous thing to tell limerents.
And yes, Imho,when he‘s online so much, he could text you, too. I often had this feeling of LOs parading around in front of me waiting for me to initiate something, but never being proactive themselves, too risky for them-let me do all the work…
Me,I‘m not in a good mood because of low contact(and because of my too tight trousers as a result of eating as a replacement for also contact or whatever – put on only 2 kilo max, but I hate that) but just know that I won’t contact him.
It’s a bit of a weird atmosphere,for me at least, but I can’t help it. I‘ve somehow got the feeling I shouldn’t text him so I don’t.
Bewitched, post away over Easter, I love reading your posts!
I wish you both happy Easter days and everybody else too!
*meant „LO contact“, not „also contact“
Hi Bewitched, Mila, thanks !
I started a response but can’t finish it as I’m out, so will post tomorrow morning on a new post, as the scrolling is too much on this one, for me at least.
P.S. Mila wrote: “I started a post three times and deleted it.” I’m sure many of us on LwL do this often.
ABCD, hi
I’m concerned over your situation. I think, since there’s nothing you can do about it, you should be thinking of ways to fill your mind with nuggets of wisdom and stoicism. This also goes for Speedwagon and LIS. Here’s a video, for surely will give you insight into the mind …
“13 Lessons on how walking away is your greatest Power/ Marcus Aurelius Stoicism “
Site : Stoic Realms
Sorry but I don’t know how to send the link. So you look it up. It’s relaxing and soothing to hear this man’s voice. At least it will take your mind away from thinking so much abt LO. And think of more important things in life.
All the best to you all. You’re not alone!
Thanks Nisor. Will check out the video.
Thanks for the tough love, Nisor. Yes its true – I do not have entitlement over LO, and I cannot control her behavior. As MJ mentioned in one of his earlier posts – if you’re going through hell, keep going, so that’s the plan. Appreciate it.
Hi everyone. It’s been a while since I checked in. Had my surgery and recovery has been rough but I have great prognosis so very thankful for that. All of this has really been sobering and making me want to get rid of LE. It’s been over 3 months since we talked and now that he’s left the job it is really starting to feel like he won’t contact me again. I’m mostly at peace with that. I got rid of his number to prevent me from contacting him. Still connected on social media and have an occasional like or comment here or there. That’s because of some mutual friends and questions it might raise.
I have to say that low/no contact works but it took so much time. If I think about LO it I can dredge it up so I’m trying very hard to redirect my thoughts when tempted to do that. Also reading too much about limerence or others stories can trigger me.
I am embarrassed and feel guilty over what I wrote on here about LO. When you’re caught up in it, it feels so real and painful and you can’t imagine ever getting out. It is a delusion in a way. At least for me it was.
I look at a picture of LO online now and think there’s nothing that special about this person. It was all in my mind and I never want to go through this again. With Jesus’s help I will continue to recover and focus on my SO.
Still trying to figure out what living purposefully looks like for me. I was in a huge rut and grieving prior to LE. Are we ever fully cured of this?
Wishing everyone here the best and thanks for all the help. This place and the people are wonderful.
Hi Beth2,
I‘m happy for you , it’s so great that surgery went well and prognosis is good! It’s so much more important than any LO.
You got your life back and won’t waste it on limerence again, I guess.
It is a delusion. I wish you the best for further recovery from both surgery and LE!
Thanks, Mila. It hasn’t been easy and your position must be super hard because you were friends for a long time before LE. Letting go of it was super painful. I wish you the best as well!
Wow Beth!!! So lovely to hear from you! It’s funny I was trying to get off to sleep the other night and name all the people on LwL as a way to get me off to sleep. You know like counting sheep. Your name was there as one of the sheep! I hope you take this as a positive, as genuinely hoping all gone ok with your procedure. So glad to read that you are doing well.
Please don’t be embarrassed about older posts you wrote about your LO. I think and hope that I will be in the same place at some point too. It’s part of the process and it’s anonymous, so all good. Please take strength in what you have achieved in your health and also LE challenges. You’re a real inspiration to many of us, well at least me. My very best wishes to you. I hope this isn’t our last connect btw !!
Thanks IMHO! That is super sweet you thought of me. Great to hear from you too! This LE was so painful and still trying to figure out how to avoid another in the future. You will get there! Wishing you the best as well!
Hi Beth2. Really happy to know that your surgery went well. You also seem to be in a better place with regards to your LE. The NC really helps. If you can minimise social media contact also, that’s the icing on the cake.
LO thoughts will pop up in your head form time to time, just acknowledge them, and try to work through them by doing other stuff.
All the best!
Hi Beth2
I’m so glad and thank God you’re recovering well from the surgery. By His tripes we are healed!
Congratulations on your progress on dealing with your LE. It was rough, but it will set you free if you keep trying to expel it from your mind.
You asked: “ Are we ever fully cured from this?”. Time will tell. We have to be strong and make it our business to be successful in this battle. We may relapse , sometimes, but the march forward continues . Ask SO to take good care of you, I’m sure he’ll be willing, sometimes they need to be asked. Remember, they are not mind readers…
Take good care of yourself and be strong . Jesus loves you. Blessings.
@Beth2
Correction: By His stripes we’re healed.
Thank you so much Nisor! Not sure if you will see this as I really had to dig to find it again. Yes by His stripes we are healed. Thanks for always being an encouragement!
Hi Beth, I saw your post. How are you doing now? Always have the faith the Lord is with you, He’ll never leave you nor forsake you . Be blessed. Have a great Sunday.
Truly delighted see your post, Beth2. Happy that you have had the surgery although so sorry that the recovery has been rough.
I can empathise with every single word and the emotions in the rest of your message.
From the bottom of my heart, I wish you every success in your recovery, particularly because I feel that we are on similar paths.
As for living purposefully, how about living with social distractions for a while, where possible? It’s working for me, for now.
Every good wish,
f x
Hi Frederico! Thanks for your well wishes and I wish you the same. I like the idea of social distractions. I really don’t get together enough with others especially lately. Take care and nice to hear from you!
Hi Nisor,
The plane is a kit, similar but way cooler than a Cessna. It helps to keep me sane. Sometimes I use my LO as motivation though.
Yeah, it’s been a long haul I guess. I’d say it lasted so long because I’m incredibly prone to rumination as it is. Spend most of my youth ruminating about being I pilot and most of my adult life ruminating about my LO. I had two now what I’d consider minor LEs. High school with gibberish girl. Then a housemate in college. Both passed when I was no longer around them. Pretty normal for this I guess.
This LE has changed over time. Initially after contact ended, I dreamed about us meeting and falling in love. We’d talked about her dreams, number of children so I had plenty to work with.
Then just meeting her and having realize I was worth it. But now it’s mostly just seeing each other and barely an intro before I fall asleep.
When I allow myself to think I’ll never see her I get incredibly depressed so I use the fantasy as a coping mechanism.
Compound that with my LO being very pretty and just capturing me. It’s not just because she’s my LO either.
I’d say it’s the circumstances with this LO. As I mentioned, she agreed to go out but then went poof. Not because of me as I understand it but we had a common acquaintance who told me where she moved and that’s about it. I was smitten and a bit looney so after a couple month delay finishing my Navy school I headed for my first duty station in Jacksonville.
I wasn’t expecting leave but I found out I was authorized for 10 days and with no planning as I drove south for Tennessee I had the option to go west or east in Louisiana. West to Houston or East to my base. Absolutely no planning. West it was. Upon arriving in Houston I realized I’d made a huge mistake. It was enormous. As I looked up at the buildings towering over me I decided it was time to go. Then the moment that would change my life happened.
A voice from behind me asked, are you in the military. Figured I was dead. I turn and see a well dressed, well built man who looked a bit disheveled. I said yes. You’re not from around here are you. Obvious from my Mass accent. Nope. Why are you here. Being naive I told him exactly why. I knew what kind of car she drove, that it had a key scratch on the door that she had told me about. He’d just been robbed and said if I gave him a ride I could stay with him and his roommate. And so the craziest week in Houston happened.
He tried to delay my search expecting disappointment was in store but after a weekend of going out using his buddies old military ID as a fake ID I finally went out on Sunday to see if I could find her. He’d given me some key info. Both he and his buddy were ex marines.
Anyway, find her I did. I’d returned the fake ID so had to wait. I was nervous as all heck. She walk right by me as she went to get her car I said her name, she turned and looked. Draw dropped and said wait are you doing in Houston. I said, so and so said you were in Houston, I knew what you drove and you owe me a date. Well she could have shot me on the spot but instead she walked right up to me gave me big hug, got my number and said she’d call me. I was out cashing my last paycheck actually expecting she wouldn’t call as it had been a couple days.
She called, left her number. I called back we set up a time to meet for dinner. I told her the whole story. She agreed it should be a movie. Then she asked what next. I said I’d love to see you again and agreed I’d come out for my 21st and so began a year of phone calls and a few trips.
When she told me I could come out for a couple weeks after Iceland I was over the moon. Then the crash.
She never indicated my attention was unwanted. Because of the finding her I was extremely sensitive to the ghosting since it was again a couple months before I could see her which I was pretty much a functional drunk. I decided I had to say bye. I went out for the one last trip and she disarmed me at every turn. Asking me to stay and hang out, gave me an incredible 8×10 photo of a modeling contest she’d one, knew I shouldn’t accept it. Then the it doesn’t have to be good bye was the worst thing she could have told me prior to ghosting me.
I hope you don’t think terribly of me. It is pretty insane.
I just don’t know how to forget that. My SO would never be able to tell. I met her 14 years after me LE started so it’s so much a part of me and my moods. Of late we write it off to just some changes due to my cancer treatment which seems to have really amped up my LE at times, especially around the time of year I got the big let down.
Thanks for listening !
John
@John
“ I hope you don’t think terribly of me. It’s pretty insane.”
I’m an open minded person. But I like discipline also, but also good hearted and understanding . I understand your “craziness “ because I had two brothers, very rambunctious, and a son who almost drove me to the mad house with his early life “risky adventures “ and his love life with fickle girls; oh the loud music and the pining for being lovesick! Could not discipline him, so he joined the USA army. Talking about doing crazy things with friends, ugh! Don’t want to remember! I was a youngster too, but a quiet one. I think men are afraid of women at that early age because we women at that age are fickle and change bf s like changing clothes . It’s really the forming years, one is immature. One is totally unaware of the consequences of ghosting a person, immaturity. But someone pays the price for it. It’s selfishness. But also it’s men’s fault for not opening their mouth on time to say what they want with you, so you know where you stand with them. No guessing. I suppose men are utterly afraid of being rejected , reasonable enough . The battle of the sexes , never getting to understand each other !
So you went the long distance with LO! She seemed to care and showed it to you, what could have made her change her mind? Maybe because you’re away most of the time and she felt lonely? She couldn’t take your absence?
The marines have a very hectic life and scary, aren’t you the first ones to be called to duty in case of war? No wonder when they come back from missions they go wild drinking and all that stuff… The Air Force , the army and the marines say are for sissies . They work from the office except the pilots. The other branches of the armed forces do the dirty work, the interesting and adventurous work for males.
“When I allow myself to think I’ll never see her I get incredibly depressed so I use the fantasy as a coping mechanism.”
Those thoughts haunted me for a long time this past two years, making me cry a lot. Coming to the realization that I’ll never again see LO
makes me very sad, a punch in
my gut feeling. Now, I just don’t want to think of it and have come to accept it. But I did try to work out ways to get to see him. He’s in the USA, I live in Europe. Not a chance in this lifetime.
I enjoy reading your stories very much, as well as others.
Have a great day. Courage!
Hi Nisor,
I shared what I did, going to find her on that first trip, hopefully to provide some context as well as tell the story. Early in our talks you thought it might be good for me to reach out. As you can see my first adventure to go find her could and now probably would be considered something which starts with an S, that I’m obviously very sensitive about as it was not my intent.
She obviously was not troubled by it at the time and her dad was absolutely blown away which still surprises me but I suppose he was a romantic like me. And we were both Navy men, though I didn’t know that until in a moment of weakness I did a little searching and found his obit.
As for my LO, I don’t think anything changed her heart or mind. At best we were friends. If she didn’t know how I felt it’s because she was in denial. I regularly sent flowers, teddy bears which were always on her bed when I visited. Called whenever I could. Gave her my dog tags. And as I’ve said her dad introduced me as being in love with his daughter. You generally don’t drive that far multiple times a year to see someone.
I always finished calls with I love you. She would not return that so I knew I hadn’t won her…yet.
I was as bold and upfront as I’ve ever been. I normally stayed at a hotel when I visited but my last trip before deployment I actually asked to stay with her. I can’t even imagine having that courage now! Did I actually love her? I’m not sure I really know what that is. Is it the fire I felt for her or the stable mundane safety I have with my SO? Somewhere in between?
The one word she never said was no, I would have respected that.
When I did stay with her it was pretty awesome. She and her dad had bought a race car together and he was going to drive it but was talking about me driving it when I got back to the states. There was just so much excitement around everything and meeting more of her family. I played your in my heart by rod stewart one night to try and convey my feelings even more. This is all in the story I wrote.
I did make one call after her SO told me to stop calling. Had my division officer, the one who delivered the flowers, call and ask for her dad.
So I spoke with him briefly. He only said, She’s made her choice and I’ve got to support that. I asked if he thought we still be friends. He said absolutely and that she was loyal.
I am incredibly concerned now about the duration of my LE. I was relieved to hear yours was longer. Maybe I’m not quite as crazy as I thought. To find that yours was not active like mine makes me wonder am I the most pathological case of this? Yikes!!! It’s so much a part of me after all the years I don’t know if I can let it go. It was such a great story with a sad ending.
I do believe it would have ended sooner if she hadn’t convinced me to stay for the whole weekend or accepted the goodbye. Playing that song sure didn’t help. At times I think she meant it, at times I don’t know. I’ve no doubt someone who didn’t know me like her SO could cast me as a creep and turn her against me. I think that is one of the reasons I really would love to see her but of course if I sought her out it’s a bit of a catch 22.
I have tried to limit triggers that make things worse, mostly certain types of music.
As always thanks for listening. It helps to share.
Kindly,
John
Hi Nisor,
Thanks for the read on first love BTW. It was very interesting. Not sure that’s what got me though. I think it might have been initially but as I’ve mentioned I think I knew it wasn’t mutual. Hmmm.
John
@John
“I was as bold and upfront as I’ve ever been.”
That, indeed , was bold and courageous for a young man!!! You had confidence alright, sad she dashed your hopes at the end. You’re the classic limerent and she didn’t correspond with the same ardor. She just saw you as a friend. So
many women would have loved to have all that attentions ,time etc, you lavished on LO. Most people don’t get whom or who they want. Many are in unrequited love travails and never again engage in the search for new opportunities to love again. I know of 2 women that never married because of unrequited love.
I don’t know if that’s healthy or not. It’s no good to be alone, specially when one gets older. Though some swear, better alone than in bad company… to each his own.
And, no, my LE was not active, but apparently it was looming somewhere in my brain without my conscious knowledge, because it stroke hard and deep as it came to the surface, and feels it all happened recently. That is: it feels I’m stuck in that time and space! Trying hard to get out of that bubble !
So, you’re concerned about the duration of your LE? Now, it became part of you, deep attachment, and as you say, difficult to let go. I wouldn’t know what to do in your case. Maybe seek help with a therapist to help
sort out your issues. Does it interfere with your daily life to a point you become numb? Or it’s just like a sedative , something you can brush off at will?
That’s would be like a ghost living in your head , I suppose.
I bet, there’s a lot of people out there in the same situation as you, but don’t know what to do or where to go to express their inner feelings. A therapist is the best I can come up with . Maybe it goes well down to childhood trauma, who knows. If I don’t get rid of this LE by myself, I guess I’d have to search for professional help.
“Did I actually love her? I’m not really sure I really know what that is. Is it the fire I felt for her or the stable mundane safety I have with my SO? Somewhere in between?”
Excellent questions. Who can answer them clearly? If you loved her, that’s for you to search in your soul and see what you can come up with. I think you loved her dearly. It’s unrequited love. You never got over the rejection. I don’t know if you grieved over it or bottled it all up like I did. I didn’t grieve the breaking up and moved on being very stoic about it. One has to grieve the loss, as if the person is dead…one needs healing, this is a deep wound of the soul. I think the soul is whipping for justice, loneliness, abandonment?
What is it?
On the question of what is love? This is a good question for my LwL friend SAMMY. I love the way he takes up a subject and dissect it thoroughly. and asking smart questions.
For me love is giving your all completely, without reservations to the person you love: soul, mind, spirit and body. It’s being joyful and happy that that person exists and you want to spend every minute of your life with them. Their joy is your joy, their pain is your pain, and nothing more honest and noble exists for you!
All is needed in a love relationship, the chemistry, the soul intimacy, sex , understanding one another, sharing the same principles and dreams, plans etc.
But, this is a dream that just a few get to have. Most marriages are just agreements to share a life together as peacefully as possible, have a family and children, grow older together.The love stories are just that: love stories…
It’s just for lovers.
I’m writing on the phone and it’s already kicking…
Have a great day.
Hi Nisor,
Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I hope you didn’t think I was minimizing your LE. Not at all and I certainly hope you get through it and achieve happiness.
Your description of her being a ghost in my head is quite accurate. I’ve joked with friends I should charge her rent. As for it affecting me, that varies. Sometimes it’s just thoughts, even scenarios where she’s there and I end up with someone else. Other times its chance meetings. Undoubtedly, it affects my happiness and takes away from enjoying the present but that’s how my brain works anyway. At its worst like now it’s a yearning to see her I know will never happen.
It pleased me that you thought I loved my LO, certainly by your description I’d say that’s how I felt for her and I really haven’t felt it again for anyone since. I’ve definitely felt the glimmer but nothing gets too far.
She is the only woman I’ve ever asked how many kids she wanted and also the only one I’d ever dreamed about having a child with. My daughter wasn’t planned and we’d not even discussed it yet. She’s amazing but not something I had desired specifically.
My LO ( I notice names aren’t used, is that against the rules) had told me about her dream to open horse stables, Sass-C estates. Her last name began with a C. I could picture building those, I love to build things. That’s where I was holding our sleeping baby. Nice dream.
You asked if I grieved. I was destroyed on the initial letdown as it wasn’t even her giving me the news. It was cold and hard. I became Vodkaman in Iceland. You know you’re drinking hard if you get a drinking name in the Navy. It got me a weekend stay in the hospital just in case.
But I accepted the rejection of my love. When I went the last time after I returned it was to say goodbye. It always comes back to this failure of mine.
I really expected to get turned away showing up unannounced but she wasn’t surprised I came. She asked me to stay as I’ve said, played the song, asked my opinion. Then killed me with it doesn’t need to be goodbye, you never know what’s going to happen.
Then to be ghosted. I don’t think I grieved I just hurt so badly to be cast aside and to mean so little after all that I did. In all these years I’ve never developed a really strong friendship that I wasn’t willing to risk losing. Only people from before. I’ve got friends but none as close.
I didn’t date for 5 years after that. I think being alone is fine for the right reasons. I respect those who haven’t let go of past loves as I know I can not give myself 100%.
Therapy is certainly something I may need to consider. I’m a bit of a hypocrite. My daughter is seeing one for stress and social anxiety. My family always seems surprised when I say she gets that from me. I guess I fake the tough guy really well.
There are really only two things I’ve really pushed hard against my lack of confidence. Obviously my LO and flying. Most other things I’ll just avoid.
You gave me a lot to think about regarding my questions of what live is that’s for sure.
Good luck and thank you!
John
@John
I will get to you on this one post in a few days. I’ll be away by sea for a few days. Meanwhile have a nice weekend and stay healthy and strong.
Hopefully out to sea for fun.
Enjoy!
Hope you had a great trip Nisor
Hi John,
Thanks for the post. I did have a good time , we were with friends and enjoyed the company and connection. It was too hot for the season, we have a heat wave and lots of dust from the Sahara. We left home with warm clothes, temperatures were abt 72 degrees F. 20 Celcius and it got to 91 F/33 Celsius! The tourists were swimming and tanning, good weather for them!
I don’t like the high temperatures, 15 to 25 Celsius all year round would be ideal for
me . I left a comment at the end of this thread.
Hope you had a nice Easter weekend.
Hi Nisor,
One interesting observation. I read recently that a man who is friends with a woman will put his arm around her shoulder. If it’s his girlfriend his arm around her waist.
I know I should never look at them but after about 15 years while recovering from my treatment I looked at her pictures and there are 3 of us together. In each one my hand is on her shoulder. I found that fascinating and disappointing.
Have a great day,
John
@John
Look up :
“Triangular theory of Love”
By Psychologist Robert Sternberg
= intimacy, passion, commitment
Can you imagine, trying to figure out what love is a this age? Who could have known! I think the Dr. is right in his theory…
“That’s completely understandable, Marcia. Anyone who has the time to read all my comments, let alone has time to decipher their meaning, has my deepest … commiserations”
So very gracious, @Sammy, although there is indeed an element of irony if you scan through some of Marcia and Snow’s recent prolific exchanges…
Frederico,
“although there is indeed an element of irony if you scan through some of Marcia and Snow’s recent prolific exchanges…“
If you wish to elaborate, I’d love to hear your views on this “element of irony” and learn more about paradox of life, particularly of us two straight female limerents.
I read most of your exchanges with Sammy, but unable to comment. For some reasons, I feel I can’t grasp something from you two….
@Snowphoenix.
“I read most of your exchanges with Sammy, but unable to comment. For some reasons, I feel I can’t grasp something from you two….”
You can’t grasp something from Frederico and I? Ah, my dear girl.
Maybe you are missing the joy and wicked, almost conspiratorial sense of humour that often pepper the exchanges of gay men when gay men talk to other gay men? 😉
I think gay men their whole lives carry this deep sense of being outsiders. When a gay man meets another gay man, he meets someone who has shared that lifelong sense of being an outsider, and the outcome is this delightful feeling of “shared outsideness”. It’s like Frederico and I are two members of the same secret society, although we’re never actually met, and we get the in-jokes. 🙂
Let me break it down for you:
Frederico and I think it’s sweet that you and Marcia have become such good friends. Your friendship is sooooooooo disgustingly cute. 😇
We’re just two gay boys enjoying the spectacle of two women friends getting along so famously. We’re afraid the coffeehouse is about to face a hostile takeover from … two brilliant female intellectuals with colour-coordinated wardrobes. We’re feeling outnumbered by Amazon queens who keep popping up out of nowhere. We’re worried there’s not enough sandwiches to go round. 😜
Marcia used to be short and sweet in her comments. But somehow you’re drawing out increasingly lengthy … cough, cough, cough … dare I say “verbose” … responses from her – although Marcia is always refreshingly, unmistakably herself. It’s not a bad thing. It just shows that you and Marcia have connected mentally. 👍
😂😂😂
I noticed, too, that “Marcia used to be short and sweet in her comments. But somehow you’re drawing out increasingly lengthy … cough, cough, cough … dare I say “verbose” … responses from her”…
She’s being “converted” by a daredevil from the East… 🙃
Sammy,
“Marcia used to be short and sweet in her comments. But somehow you’re drawing out increasingly lengthy … cough, cough, cough … dare I say “verbose” … responses from her – although Marcia is always refreshingly, unmistakably herself.”
You’re right. I’m getting verbose. I’m used to Betty Brevity! 🙂
Marcia Sis,
I think you’re getting taller and more sweetly feminine, and making me less and less of a “tomboy”… 🫂
Snow P,
“I think you’re getting taller and more sweetly feminine, and making me less and less of a “tomboy”… 🫂”
I wouldn’t mind being taller. 🙂 I’m actually pretty outwardly feminine. I just have to lean in on my masculine side. I’m on my own. Have to take care of myself. 🙂
Marcia,
“I’m actually pretty outwardly feminine. I just have to lean in on my masculine side. I’m on my own. Have to take care of myself. 🙂”
Your older posts did not sound very “feminine”…. 💃🏻, neither mine (probably more tomboyish)…😄 I have gradually come to see that our words sometimes did sound like being rocketed out of an amazon jungle… although I personally did not feel much pinch🤏 but this touch of a profound feminine melody….
Marcia,
“Your older posts did not sound very “feminine”….”
Why? Because I’m not sweet and cheerleaderish? 🙂
I meant I look feminine.
Sammy,
I’d like to join your group with Frederico. Maybe I could be an adjunct member. 🙂
That first comment was meant for Snow P. I erroneously wrote it to myself.
Marcia,
“Why? Because I’m not sweet and cheerleaderish? 🙂
I meant I look feminine.”
Our LwL “look” here depends only on our words, our realistic look is up to every ghost’s imagination.
When I first came and innocently scanned some of your older posts, they were brief, energetic, right onto “bony” points like bullets, few “watery” stuff winding through longer passages seen in many male and female posters…. This gave me that mental image — shorter than me, boyish framed, black hair in two pigtails, feisty, in later 20s. The image is still with me, no matter how you describe your realistic look. 👧
Sammy,
If you take Marcia in as your club’s adjunct member, I’d want to join, too. Otherwise, my jealousy would aim its verbal arrows at you. 🏹
The autocorrection’s error: “incidentally”.
Snow,
“This gave me that mental image — shorter than me, boyish framed, black hair in two pigtails, feisty, in later 20s. The image is still with me, no matter how you describe your realistic look. 👧”
I have no problem with this. I’ll take “later 20s.”
I picture you as a petite woman (body frame, not height), small features, with long, shiny black hair. Somewhere in your 30s.
“If you take Marcia in as your club’s adjunct member, I’d want to join, too. Otherwise, my jealousy would aim its verbal arrows at you. 🏹”
If we both get voted in as adjuncts, the four of us will all go out dancing. 🙂
I dance like a former U.S. president. Be warned. 🙂
Marcia,
“I picture you as a petite woman (body frame, not height), small features, with long, shiny black hair. Somewhere in your 30s.”
I have no problem with your imagination, either.
“If we both get voted in as adjuncts, the four of us will all go out dancing. 🙂”
Absolutely! Dancing until Dawn and then have a light, early breakfast at diner…then go to bed until early afternoon… then luncheon… then watch the sunset…
“I dance like a former U.S. president. Be warned. 🙂”
Who? Superbly dazzling or clumsy? When I dance, I might wake up a dead… 💃🏻
Snow,
“Absolutely! Dancing until Dawn and then have a light, early breakfast at diner…then go to bed until early afternoon… then luncheon… then watch the sunset…”
That sounds perfect!
“I dance like a former U.S. president. Be warned. 🙂”
Who? Superbly dazzling or clumsy? When I dance, I might wake up a dead… 💃🏻”
Clumsy. I’m very clumsy. I can feel the music in my soul. When it moves to my physical body to the point of expression … it translates into flailing. 🙂
Marcia,
“Absolutely! Dancing until Dawn and then have a light, early breakfast at diner…then go to bed until early afternoon… then luncheon… then watch the sunset…”
“That sounds perfect!”
After the sundown, we co-write, co-direct, and rehearse a comedy or tragedy about limerents in limerence….then with a bit of cocktail, we chat the sun to rise…
“Clumsy. I’m very clumsy. I can feel the music in my soul. When it moves to my physical body to the point of expression … it translates into flailing. 🙂”
Hmmm… Dame sister, have you ever tried Yoga? Any kind? It would make a body very flexible. I never got any training in dancing, but learned Iyengar a while ago and still can put my toes into my mouth or sit half moon easily. When body is flexible, it’s easy for blood and Qi flow internally, thus helping make one in a relaxed/joyful/giddy mood.
Sammy Sammash,
“I’ve been on this site for a few years and he is consistently kind.
Never really known him not to be.
Kind, erudite and verbose!
Sammy Sams: I’m pulling your leg about being verbose! ®”
“Ah, Marcia. You are too, too kind. (That compliment sounds insincere. I borrowed it from an old black-and-white movie about Marie Antoinette. But I mean it sincerely in relation to you).
For the record, I am “verbose”. And I’m a bit “soft in the noggin” at times. And maybe I repeat myself in a vaguely annoying way. If the shoe fits, I wear it. Can’t see any point in denying reality. If something is true, and the hearer doesn’t find it insulting but a charming insight into oneself, then it is not an insult in my book.”
@Sammy
***************
Sammy, “Marcia used to be short and sweet in her comments. But somehow you’re drawing out increasingly lengthy … cough, cough, cough … dare I say “verbose” … responses from her – although Marcia is always refreshingly, unmistakably herself.” You’re right. I’m getting verbose. I’m used to Betty Brevity! “
****************
“Don’t get me wrong – I enjoyed the show. But the whole performance needed more work. There were issues with timing. The lighting wasn’t great.
Marcia did a fine job, though. All her jokes landed – I think the girl is a natural. Hats off to Marcia!”
@Sammy
*******
Ah, the lighting just radiates the LwL stage at a perfect time now… 💡🎙️💡
Sammy,
“ That’s completely understandable, Marcia. Anyone who has the time to read all my comments, let alone has time to decipher their meaning, has my deepest … commiserations. “
Now you can feel as much and deep “commiserations” for me as I deserve, since it’s one of few comments, along Marcia’s, that keep my deep melancholy at bay…
Life is so short… and often stressful 😩, or gray…. 🥱, or blue 🌀
“So very gracious, @Sammy, although there is indeed an element of irony if you scan through some of Marcia and Snow’s recent prolific exchanges…”
@Frederico.
Hahaha! You are very kind, Frederico. Thank you… 😇
I just wanted to let Marcia know I know how INFP minds work, and I understand the perfectly healthy desire to skip over extraneous material to get to the good stuff – which really is a very sensible attitude, at any age. (Wish I had that ability at uni. But no, I had to read every single word of the assigned readings). 😜
In school, none of my peers had the faintest clue what I was talking about. Half the teachers didn’t know what I was talking about. Eventually, I began to find pleasure in mystifying people. (If in doubt, use a big word. That’ll throw ’em off the scent!) 😆
If I ever become a famous author, I’ve already worked out what I’m going to say to fans: “Oh, you read my book? I mean, really? You actually read my book? You got through the whole darn thing? All forty-two million pages? Oh, you poor thing! Commiserations! Bless your dear widdle heart! 😁
Oh, and I HAVE noticed Marcia and Snow upping the philosophical ante lately. Not to mention the word count of their exchanges. The very nerve! Anyone would think we were in the midst of a pair of fellow intellectuals!! 😉
“The very nerve! Anyone would think we were in the midst of a pair of fellow intellectuals!! 😉“ — @Sammy
What an acute, gloating self-observation!
A single’s mind 🤯, heart 🫀 and soul 👻 have more time and energy for intellectual banters… 💃🏻🕺🏻
Tuesday evening on my screen is the singleton’s night on LwL 💃🏻🕺🏻👻
Frederica, Sammy,
The difference between my “twin sister”, Marcia, and me ——
1. She wants “sexual/romantic/emotional soul merging” in that order; I “spiritual/emotional/intellectual/sexual merging.
2. She desires LO to grab and offer her body first, then merge her mind and soul ; I care about get LO’s soul and mind prior to the body.
There maybe more points coming 🆙
Snow,
“She wants “sexual/romantic/emotional soul merging” in that order”
There was no specific order. But, yes, don’t hold off on the physical forever. We want to know how that is before we invest too much in the other stuff. 🙂
Marcia,
Once a mystery is revealed, the desire might be receded… Poor me! 🥲. I love my desire more than actual desired.
I’m cooking something with Romeo now for his coming birthday… still can’t tell whether he’s straight or gay… 🤔
Snow,
Ask him what kind of music he likes.
What to tell from one’s music taste?
Certain popular bands can help point us to an answer. I’m being a little sarcastic. But a little.
Marcia,
The old message chain is too long, so I move our sisterly discussions/debates here —
“Hey … a fan is a fan. Just enjoy the compliment. 🙂”
I hate to brag in any fashions, but here is a ghost land, so let my 35% narcissistic nature indulge itself for once, just once — I could have lined up a whole army of fans in a Red Square, but I just did not care about them at all (even if they all sat inside Kennedy Center in DC), unless they were my friends or LOs.
“I wasn’t talking about dangling a bunch of women. I meant that if he prefers younger women but is putting women his own age in the second options category to date only if the younger ones aren’t interested … I would kindly ask him to remove me from the options list. 🙂”
Agree with you here. I’d rather to die alone than being a second in an amorous relationship. I’d remember Great Gabor or Juliette Binoche when I felt lonely. The latter is much more womanly sexy than the former – she’s the only woman in the world with whom I could go to bed….
“Dangling a bunch of women is a separate issue. I can’t really take issue with that unless he’s said we are exclusive and in a relationship.”
When dating a single guy nowadays, it’s very possible to encounter a modern Casanova (vice vista). In that sense, having PA with a married man is even “safer” since he is supposed to deal with only his SO. That’s why I wish I could be a polycule, so I can dance with a few cute dudes at the same time.
“For me, it was some kind sexual/romantic/emotional soul merging. 🙂 Yes, I can hear myself. 🙂
For me, it was, almost always— “spiritual/emotional/intellectual/sexual merging. My mind is more powerful than body; hence, psychosomatic, although a French film-maker lover said to me in Paris after one night stand, “You need an army…” I did not see him for the 2nd time.
”Of course, the men I become limerent for were directly related to the relationship with my parents. One cannot separate limerence from one’s upbringing (in most cases).”
Inevitably! But mine occurred literally right after Dad’s death and Mom’s landing at my door…. So the old history and a new tragedy opened up the old wounds, like a volcano erupt. I slipped into LE head over heal, 9 calm months after I had the initial, quiet and loud Glimmer.
”I meant on a very basic level. Like eating chocolate all day long, despite how delicious it is, is not a healthy choice.”
I did not grow up with a kind of abundance the West has. My parents or Granny or day/week care would not allow any kind of material indulgence. Frugality is a virtue.
“I agree. The only way I didn’t attach is if it was just for a night or two (and not an LO) or if I didn’t really like the guy or wasn’t attracted to him. And then … why bother?
The same here! But one or two night stand with even a half-LO would be highly addictive. That’s what happened with my LO #5 & #6; I sensed/knew they were not “right” for me, but could not walk away or go out with other non-LO guys at the same time.
“I’ve never had that happen. …Only once did I experience transference from one LO to another LO.”
I had smaller transferences between LO#4/SO and LO #5, but the latest one was almost immediate. Interestingly, LO #5 and #7 are same age, from the same cultural background, same profession, the former is more of a lone-wolf, creative, and rebellious; the later more social, confirming, and family orientated; both are insecure, both got a soft knee for women, both could lie and deceive “beautifully” and shamelessly. The former is very incompatible with me; I don’t know the latter enough to tell.
“You’d have to be interested in the person… I think you have to have SOME chemistry. I keep writing that. I just don’t think that it has to be a blazing inferno to start out with. And it might be better if it’s not. You can actually see the person more clearly. It’s a theory. I haven’t tried it out yet. “
I did with Narc #3 and #6, and #5 (half glimmer, I’d say), and slipped into LE with them, which hurt my mind and heart so badly.
“But the people I glimmer for are bad choices.”
Glimmer — the Idiot Cupid, is blind, not a matter of choices. Please do not blame our Unconscious! I still don’t think my LO#1, 4, 5 & 7 are bad men; I think their heart/character is basically decent, but they have issues when dealing with women, perhaps due to their upbringing with their mothers — deduced from their revelations to me.
“I was the same way. I’ve always wanted to do my own thing and join in with the group only when I chose to. I still do, but they won’t let you do that at work! 🙁”
I’m the same way in my private life, and I don’t join any group in reality; LwL is an exception as a “rehab”. Nature of my work gives me a certain amount of autonomy, students’ learning needs and styles, not any boss, would direct my work.
“I meant that it’s unlikely the guy will just fall into your lap and show up at your door, particularly the older you get. It’s harder to meet people organically. You have to get out and join things, be social, etc., if you don’t do the online stuff.”
I know what you mean, but I do not and cannot treat “meeting a guy” as a specific task; I would not go out to do anything with that goal in my head. If I organically meet someone along the way, great; if not, I would not be upset at all!
” Now I am pretty much sure that he has a bf/gf.”
“NOOOO! How do you know? Did you check the other bathroom cabinet? “
No checking upstairs cabinet. He silenced his Cell phone around 8pm on Fri. and Sat. through night, but around 11pm on weekday evenings. A simply deduction learned from LO#5. In the bathroom downstairs, I still don’t see any female stuff at all but more added male stuff, like shaving creams, razors, toothbrushes, towels, as if one person has been added on (by comparison I saw it for the first time)
“Goodness! That sounds challenging! How did it go”
It went so-so. It’s a bunch of unruly/unmotivated kids without demographic diversity. I don’t think I can manage again a classroom of 9-12 graders. The assistant principal recommend that I “command” them more because they need it; I can’t even command myself! I told LO, who cheered up last evening, that I will not take this job whether offered or not. I’m not desperate financially.
I have a part-time “offer” from another college, which depends on classes’ enrollment.
Snow P,
” unless they were my friends or LOs.”
I guess that’s another difference between us. If a guy approached me and was friendly, I was flattered, even if I wasn’t interested. (I don’t mean a creeper or someone leering at me.)
“The latter is much more womanly sexy than the former – she’s the only woman in the world with whom I could go to bed….”
I like Juliette Binoche, too. A great actress and very elegant and sexy in a kind of restrained, mysterious way. French sexuality is so much more subtle than American sexuality. And French women retain that sexiness well into older age.
But I’d pick Angelina Jolie if I was going to go that route. She seems like she knows what she’s doing. 🙂
” In that sense, having PA with a married man is even “safer” since he is supposed to deal with only his SO.”
I guess, although a married dude could have several women on the side who he’s having a PA with. You’re not always the only one besides the SO.
“although a French film-maker lover said to me in Paris after one night stand, “You need an army…” I did not see him for the 2nd time.”
LOL. I need three guys. One for physical, one for emotional and one for intellectual. 🙂
“But mine occurred literally right after Dad’s death and Mom’s landing at my door…. ”
Yes, both very difficult events. Probably more so the later as you feel ambivalent about her ?
“Frugality is a virtue.”
I didn’t mean you’re spending a lot of money. Just that you’re eating store-bought candy bars all as opposed to something healthy.
” But one or two night stand with even a half-LO would be highly addictive.”
Yes. One night with even a crush … and you get attached and addicted.
“the former is more of a lone-wolf, creative, and rebellious;”
He sounds like my type. 🙂
“I still don’t think my LO#1, 4, 5 & 7 are bad men; I think their heart/character is basically decent”
I don’t know if I’d call mine decent. Depends on which one. But they were bad for me. Bad for a good, long-term partnerships.
“I know what you mean, but I do not and cannot treat “meeting a guy” as a specific task; I would not go out to do anything with that goal in my head. ”
I agree. I wouldn’t join a group with the goal of “meeting a guy.” I’ve been in groups in which it was obvious certain men had joined to meet women, and it was icky and obvious. But … in order to meet people, you do have to get out and about. But the goal should be to meet people, in general. To interact, to have good conversation. And if you happen to meet a guy, that’s fine. If you don’t, that’s ok, too.
“No checking upstairs cabinet. He silenced his Cell phone around 8pm on Fri. and Sat. through night, but around 11pm on weekday evenings. A simply deduction learned from LO#5.”
I’m not sure what you mean. He had his phone turned off at night? What time of the day do you tutor him?
” I can’t even command myself!”
I’m the same way. I dislike telling other people what to do.
“I’m not desperate financially.”
That’s good.
“I have a part-time “offer” from another college, which depends on classes’ enrollment.”
Can you live on that? I’m not sure how it works where you are, but in the West, if you go part-time as a professor, you often don’t get benefits like health insurance and often don’t get paid that well. Many part-time profs have to eek out a living working part-time at several different colleges and you get put on the schedule at the last minute. The adjunct professors are treated badly.
Marcia,
“I guess that’s another difference between us. If a guy approached me and was friendly, I was flattered, even if I wasn’t interested. (I don’t mean a creeper or someone leering at me.)”
Oh, I did feel the same way as you do when individual men approached (some became so giddy fast in front of others…😇 ) and usually I felt “sympathetic” for the guy since they could not arose my amorous interests. My annoyance was most shown to those “creepy” or “leering” eyes in public…
“But I’d pick Angelina Jolie if I was going to go that route. She seems like she knows what she’s doing. 🙂”
In any circumstance, I’d choose French women… in my eyes, they’re the most feminine, reserved, and mysterious. In my eyes, Angelina Jolie lacks feminine curves and subtlety….
”…since he is supposed to deal with only his SO.”
“I guess, although a married dude could have several women on the side who he’s having a PA with. You’re not always the only one besides the SO.”
That’s why I used the word, “supposed”… that’s why I turned down dashing LO#7’s PA offer, I refused to be a 2nd, 3rd, ? pet chick or his one-time “trophy”… But I’d tease his appetite as well without giving even crumbs. 🤫
“I need three guys. One for physical, one for emotional and one for intellectual. 🙂”
I am unable to separate three. I tired to deal with dudes with just one of three leading feature: the first kind, just plain 🥱 , the second, indecisive or 🥹 ; the third lacked muscles, unable to “get up” in bedroom… 😟
“Probably more so the later as you feel ambivalent about her ?”
Seeing her physically declining (thank god, no serious underline medical problems) of course arose my sympathy. But she still could not help irritate/trigger me, although trying quite hard to please me, which also saddens me. I don’t want anyone to feel insecure on my account, but there is no emotion between us to repair… I’m still trying my might to get rid of this cptsd directly caused by her treatment, which was so deeply imprinted in my neurons….
“the former is more of a lone-wolf, creative, and rebellious;”
He sounds like my type. 🙂”
He’s very emotional, easily having buckets of tears running…almost always depressed, and considered himself “asexual”… “Bullied” by his controlling xSO, a more of “henpecked” husband…
“I don’t know if I’d call mine decent. Depends on which one. But they were bad for me. Bad for a good, long-term partnerships.”
When it comes to that pair-bonding” drive, the word “decent” needs to be put to sleep by “anesthesia” in most men and women, limerent or not. I saw the phenomenon again and again… True, they can be “good” or “bad” ones for a loving, long-term partnerships.
“To interact, to have good conversation. And if you happen to meet a guy, that’s fine. If you don’t, that’s ok, too.”
My deceased Godfather (a very funny, gay, Hollywood-star biographer) used to say, “The best spouses is a good conversationist, so you’ll never get bored with him/her even when you’re very old.” He was invited to almost every social event among friends and family, because he could simply charm and humor even a baby present.
“I’m not sure what you mean. He had his phone turned off at night? What time of the day do you tutor him?”
Yes. If one turns off phone at 7 or 8pm particularly on weekend evenings, instead of 11 or 12, s/he is usually on a date. I tutor him from 6:30-7:30pm on Mondays, text him during daytime if needed.
“Can you live on that? I’m not sure how it works where you are… The adjunct professors are treated badly.”
Yes, I can. I have lived as AP without giving a dime how others viewed or treated me, as long as I could keep my shoulders straight, chin up, and carry a sincere smile… I was a natural Stoic in the field of profession/career. Of course, I always tried to do the best and leave results to their own courses….
When it comes to an emotional domain, everyone’s nerves are rocked or turned upside down soon or later… 🙃
To correct: “When it comes to that pair-bonding” drive, the word “decency” has been put to sleep by all kinds of individual “anesthesia” in most men and women, limerent or not.
Marcia,
“I guess I felt sympathetic if I thought he was going to, for example, ask me out and I knew I wasn’t interested. If he was just being friendly and a little flirty, that was fine, but I didn’t want to be put in a position of having to say no. If I thought if things were going in that direction, I didn’t want to be rude but I tried not to be overly friendly.”
I’m pretty much the same way in social events here. I felt sorry for those who persisted in asking me out, but I just did not want to go out with them. In COO, we habitually avoid saying “No” (sheerly rude) to anything, but go around and around, until the other side gets the message. But some aggressive ones pretended that they din’t get “No” message, and pushed and pushed (like the example I told you a few weeks ago), then I’d pull down my snowy/icy face 👹
“That’s why it would be fun for a night. Subtlety has its place, but not once you get into the room with someone. 🙂”
I prefer subtle, savvy, slow-burning way baked with affections. NO more one-night, not even with LO!
“It’s what my LO did to me. But I never teased an LO; with an LO, I was serious about wanting to following through. 😉”
All my previous LOs soon left no room for teasing or imagination, except the current “Platonic” one. He played so much pulling-n-pushing, cold-n-hot “game”, you think my narcissistic appetite would let him get away? Since I could not and did not want to strip his clothes off, even when offered, then I’d tease with a couple of monologue lines here and there with none-rated, seductive words… 🤪 (DrL instructed me how to seduce LO in my 😴) .
“I am unable to separate three.”
“I’ve never experienced all in one person, I don’t think. Maybe the sexual and emotional but not the intellectual. If I bonded with them intellectually, I wasn’t attracted or found them a bit chilly.”
Neither me! I had all possible two-two combinations, but no three in one guy. I got some great Sexual/intellectual ones, but Glimmer or crush was absent, e.g. LO#5 and the triathlon/writer Parisian lover. Human brain is the sexiest organ.
“Is that because there’s no hope for the relationship to get better?”
Absolutely no hope! Looking at her face, I simply could NOT believe I was from her belly!
“When it comes to that pair-bonding” drive, the word “decent” needs to be put to sleep by “anesthesia” in most men and women, limerent or not.”
I’m not sure what you mean. You were anesthetized by limerence?”
I meant when people slip into LE or just a big crush, all their normal “decent” thoughts or behaviors are “anesthetized” from one day to one decade. Normal decency or logic lose their “power” in “pair-bonding” affairs; just look all our cases in LwL, Kennedy brothers with Marilyn Moore…
“Who did he write about?
“Milton’s Marilyn”, “Myrna Loy”, etc… Don’t tell me you know Jimmy personally ⁉️ He was my x-Mother-in-law’s best friend, charming, tastefully humorous, sweet, kind, suffered a lot (back then there was no gay rights), died of a sudden heart attack at age of 62.
“How did you know his phone was off? Did you call and it went right to voice mail?”
I don’t know whether his phone is off or on. But on the text screen, you can see whether other side has silenced the incoming notification. Your messages would be delivered, but soundlessly. Most people silence their phone during sleep or dating…
“You can still be highly valued by the students. But the university can sometimes treat their adjuncts like crap. “
Very true! I’m fully aware what’s going on in HE system in the States. This is one unfair situation (like 80% of matters in life) to practice one’s Stoicism: you can’t change an environment, but can only adjust your attitude towards it and find some workable solutions to make yourself at a certain level of peace. Complaining, shouting would NOT help one damn thing! Some of my colleagues, including LO, just lost their career built from 15-25 years, yet not reaching their retirement age yet… so sad and stressful!
Nowadays, I only work or do what I’d like and enjoy doing with a small amount of financial freedom.
Just learned this term — Pure OCD, which I think, applies to limerence rumination, in all possible lighting…. 🔁🔂///
What is pure OCD? — https://youtu.be/Q9yKaI0vLJs?si=SjT6kRxSE8V3HqQt
Being one’s own best friend, while not leading an urban hermit lifestyle, is the biggest challenge in any culture…
Snow to the P,
“In COO, we habitually avoid saying “No” (sheerly rude) to anything, but go around and around, until the other side gets the message. ”
I don’t mean to knock your COO, but I think it’s cruel to not be direct and leave the other person confused. A quick, “Thank you for asking but I don’t care to go̶