I’ve always been rather impressed by the fact that the original text on limerence – Love and Limerence, by Dorothy Tennov – had a cover jacket blurb by Simone de Beauvoir. I mean, talk about bragging rights.
Looking back through the history, de Beauvoir turns out to have had a sizeable impact on limerence. Tennov was clearly strongly influenced by her writing, and cited de Beauvoir’s concept of the “ecstatic union” as an especially powerful way to capture the rapture of mutual limerence.
Even more than that, Tennov tells the story of how she first came to the realisation that limerence was a distinct, definable mental state that needed a specific name, while on a long-haul flight with her friend, Helen Payne. She was regaling Helen with the latest exciting developments of her research into love – from the hundreds of interviews she had been carrying out with the lovestruck – when she realised that her friend was becoming increasingly restless and irritable. Eventually, Dorothy realised that Helen had never experienced the mental state she was describing. But she had felt the negative effects of limerence in her life when previous lovers had spoiled a burgeoning relationship with their irrational behaviour.
That was the moment of crystallisation for Tennov that she had discovered something important. Up until then, she had believed she was defining the universal features of falling in love. In fact, she was describing the experience of a subset of people who had a neurological trait that meant they entered a distinct and involuntary psychological state of profound infatuation when falling in love. Limerents.
From what I’ve managed to piece together from Tennov’s writings, I’m pretty sure that the seminal flight with Helen Payne was when they were returning from Paris to the US after Tennov had interviewed Simone de Beauvoir for a PBS TV series. The french philosopher loomed large in the background of limerence as Tennov developed her ideas.
Given all that, I thought it was rather overdue for me to go to the original source and find out what Simone de Beauvoir had to say about love. So, I got a copy of “The Second Sex” and dove in.

It was surprising and illuminating. Having never read de Beauvoir before, her scathing critique of society and its effects on male and female sexuality was stunning (in the sense of being hit on the head), and thought-provoking. I’d expected a perspective on infatuation, but instead it was a perspective on how social conventions oppress. Women are repeatedly cast literally and figuratively as prey; men, predators. She approvingly quotes Nietzsche:
“The single word love in fact means two different things for man and woman. What woman understands by love is clear enough: it is not only devotion, it is a total gift of body and soul, without reservation, without regard for anything whatever. This unconditional nature of her love is what makes it a faith, the only one she has. As for man, if he loves a woman, what he wants is that love from her; he is consequently far from postulating the same sentiment for himself as for woman; if there should be men who also felt that desire for complete abandonment, upon my word, they would not be men”
I’ve not read the whole book, but already it’s striking how “of its era” it seems now. The specific mention of the “ecstatic union” is in a passage about the desire for annihilation of the self, and an attempt by woman to transform man into a God so that she can sublimate her identity into a union with him.
The most striking impression for me as a modern reader is how sundered, how irreconcilable, the reported experiences of sex and love are for men and women. The argument is obviously deep and nuanced – not least in unpeeling the layers of biology, society, patriarchy and psychology that have led to this alienation – but it’s a pessimistic perspective. It also comes as a surprise for me, given the correspondence I receive from men and women, and all the varied sexualities that are out there in the wide world.
For me, as for Tennov, the message from the limerents of the world is that the altered state of mind is closely similar for men and women. I haven’t done any kind of statistical or textual analysis, but where I’ve noticed differences, they are in the superficial details of the experience, not in the fundamentals. Women may worry more about the opinions of friends and family. Men may worry more about professional consequences. Women might lean more towards personality traits as glimmer-triggers, men towards physical traits. But these are the surface level influences.
Once the psychological state of limerence has seized someone – anyone – the internal experience is very similar. Complete emotional capture. Overwhelming desire to bond with the LO. Intrusive thoughts. Ceaseless craving for intimacy. Wanting to immerse, to fuse, to devote themselves to LO. Possessiveness is certainly a frequent feature of limerence, but mostly seems to spring from fear of loss rather than covetous greed.
The narrative about men wanting to prey on women, dominate, control, use them as vehicles for pleasure is so far removed from the typical emails I receive that it’s confounding. There are lots of men out there who “upon [Nietzsche’s] word” are not men.
The de Beauvoir archetypal man reads like a slave of lust, of libido driving the desire to take sexual gratification. Much commoner in limerence is the urge to demonstrate their devotion, to serve, to protect, to rescue, to dedicate themselves to LO. Many men talk of feeling possessed, powerless, wanting the LO to free them of their emotional torment. They seek and give, in the hope of relief.
Obviously, every individual limerent experience is unique, but they all seem to be, at the most fundamental level, a desire to pair-bond, to form a romantic attachment. Devotion not domination.
To be clear, I’m not trying to discredit the de Beauvoir perspective. On the contrary, it’s been a real lightbulb moment for me to read first hand accounts of how women experience love, and how men appear to them in the context of their own social (and historical) environment. The value of this open communication is obvious – my assumption that everyone would realise what was going on in the typical limerent man’s internal world was wrong. In fact, it now seems absurd to have been so lazy in my thinking. It’s only through the open exchange of ideas that we get to discover how other people with profoundly different lives experience the world.
So, I’m going to get back into the reading and see what else I can learn. In the meantime, as ever, I invite the LwL community to share their own experiences in the comments. Any light bulb moments when mismatched expectations suddenly became clear? Any defining features of limerence that you think might differ between men and women (or any other demographics for that matter)?
Let’s uncover our own faulty assumptions.
Maybe the gulf of misunderstanding can be bridged.

Just a quick word on Simone de Beauvoir, I always felt that all her writing was deeply personal. She was an unbelievably intelligent and sensitive woman with unbelievably fine prose, I love her style. But I think everything she wrote is rooted very much in her personal experience with men and women, which is of course heavily colored by her time and Parisien artists‘ milieu, but also by her intense and a bit strange relationship with Sartre and experience with other very strong-willed and a bit narcissistic men.
I think one can understand her best when reading not „the second sex“or the novels, but her memoirs which are for me the best she has written, or just get to me more than the other books. Even the novels like „Mandarins of Paris“ are all based on her own life.
So maybe she‘s never really neutral and objective on her view of men, women and love, I don’t know.
“Any light bulb moments when mismatched expectations suddenly becomes clear?
I was expecting (in my mind) that I could communicate often with LO), but suddenly I realized he had a SO, a huge barrier; and I would be a “mate poacher”! Didn’t like the title!!!
“Any defining features of limerence that you think might differ between men and women (or any other demographics for that matter)?” Dr. L.
It depends a lot , I would say, on the personality of the person. Some people are very introverted, and can’t communicate easy. But I noticed that male limerents ( introverted or not) have more problems communicating their feelings than females. Males may express their feelings by giving gifts, taking you places, “action” in general. Or if an artist, they find an outlet to write poems, paint, write music etc for his LO. Overall, males are more shy and hold things inside a lot, even though they may love the LO intensely, but find other ways to show it by doing things for the LO.
Not an easy blog today Dr. L…
Good weekend to all.
“But I noticed that male limerents ( introverted or not) have more problems communicating their feelings than females”
In general perhaps… but certainly not the case for this introverted male limerent!!
Actually it’s something I’ve noticed in my relationships… I talk about my feelings with my SO all the time, always have, sometimes to the point where she’s like “enough already!” With my LO, I love talking with her about our feelings as well, but most of the time explicit talk about feelings makes her uncomfortable and makes her retreat from me for awhile, so I’ve become really creative about expressing my feelings for her in all those other “action” ways you mentioned – acts of service, gifts, songs, drawings, etc. It’s like my feelings have to get expressed somehow, so if she won’t let me just tell her I love her every day, then I try to show her I love her by giving her something that she’s been needing for school or helping her with her homework or drawing her a picture or something.
Hi LiS,
So acts of service in your case (a man) – this is consistent with what I get from both my SO and LO.
I think for me, the thing is give is my understanding to my LO, and to my own detriment. Could this be a general female trait, I am not sure.
Interestingly, my SO actually demands very little understanding from me, he is so easy to get along with and seems to need me less…
Sorry, fat thumbs, I meant that the thing *I give* to my LO is my understanding – and he needs a lot of it.
I’d say in my relationship with SO, I express love through acts of service, words of affirmation, physical touch and quality time all pretty equally, with gift giving further down (I’ve never been much into giving or receiving gifts for the most part). I’d say my SO primarily expresses her love for me through quality time and physical touch (which are probably my favorite ways to receive love), but she also sometimes surprised me with thoughtful little gifts or acts of service.
With LO, my ability to use most of the love languages is fairly curtailed by our circumstances. Physical touch is limited to a hug maybe once or twice a month. Quality time is limited by the restrictions on how often we’re able to talk and the fact that we can’t really ever actually spend time together in person. But she does know how much I love spending time talking with her as often as possible, and that never turn down an opportunity to spend time with her even if just on the phone. I words of affirmation when I can, but too much of it makes her start to feel uncomfortable so I have to limit myself. I’m always looking for opportunities to provide acts of service – sometimes I can, and sometimes she doesn’t let me because she’s spent her life being really independent and not relying on anyone, so half of her really likes having me do things for her and half of her abhors it. And same goes for gifts – I can get away with a thoughtful little gift here and there, but anything too big makes her really uncomfortable and guilty feeling.
In terms of what I get from LO, quality time is the thing that makes me feel best. She’s such a keep-to-herself person with such a busy life that when she chooses to spend hours talking with me on the phone, that means a lot to me (plus our talks just always feel so good because it feels like she understands me so well and the energy between us is just amazing). Otherwise, the little bits of physical touch from her (the hugs and the occasional tender squeeze of the arm or rub of the shoulder in passing) means a lot to me as well, and on the rare occasions that she lets her guard down enough to openly tell me how she feels about me, that also makes me feel so loved.
Hi LIs,
that’s wonderful
you can express your feelings as it should be. I would have liked my LO to be like that, instead he would gaze intensely into my eyes as if I had magic; could spend hours holding me in his arms without saying a word. My SO was limerent for me but had no words to express his feelings either. Instead he’d constantly shower me with gifts, it was almost an obsession! Other fellows would drive me dizzy taking me places , one after the other, till I would get exhausted and complained.
My SO still writes poetry and draws my portrait when he gets inspired!
I also see my son having difficulties expressing his feelings to his lady friend. And his fellow friends also have the same problem. It seems men are more reserved, or maybe afraid they’ll be rejected, thus they are cautious? I asked my SO why he never talked to me about love and he said he was afraid I’d not reciprocate, and felt like a chicken without a head . He pursued so much I couldn’t get rid of him. Persistence he had! Hahaha.
I think that’s really sweet that your SO writes you poetry and draws your portrait! I’ve actually taken to drawing portraits of my SO recently as well!
I think that someone showering me with gifts would make me feel uncomfortable. I would feel obligated to give them gifts of equal meaning and quantity in return, and I would find that stressful.
The thing is, my relationship with LO #2 could have been something right out of a 19th century Gothic romance.
A young Naval officer from far away and a local born and bred nurse working at a veterans hospital, introduced by a man who’d bilk thousands of dollars from the Officer and the nurse’s parents (true, he did jail time later for bilking fellow parishioners). The nurse lived in the top flat of an old house with sight of the ferry terminal. We’d ride the ferry back and forth embracing each other on deck, sometimes watching the sunrise, sometimes watching the sunset, sometimes under the full moon, sometimes in swirling fog. She showed me the nooks and crannies of the city that only a local would know about. This could have been a romance for the ages. The stuff of legend.
But, reality bites and the story didn’t have a happy ending.
However, I found a different woman who loved me, trusted me, desired me, and wanted to be with me. We built a life together. That story is still being written. Along the way LO #4 got inside my head.
You can’t make this stuff up.
“Any light bulb moments when mismatched expectations suddenly became clear?”
Yes, very clear to me. When my glimmer crystallized and I starting feeling the feelings for LO I became bold and texted her a few personal “how are you” texts off work hours. This was a big huge bold move for me because I never had texted any woman other than my SO personally before. It felt like a significant act on my part and I craved LO to reciprocate that desire to interact with me thru text off work hours. The first few times we texted she texted back and we had a short but somewhat satisfying back and forth. I remember on a Friday during this time I asked her to text me on Saturday and she did. That felt nice. 3 weeks into the LE it all felt so intoxicating and I was as euphoric as ever. I had all kinds of thoughts of an emotional and possible physical affair at this point. All I wanted was LO, her whole being. No creature on earth was as magical. But then reality hit.
I remember orchestrating a work outing with just me and LO and I spent about 4 hours alone with her. We had a blast that day and I felt a ton of connection. That evening I texted her and wanted to get more conversational connection in. She did not reciprocate. Her texts back were short and superficial. The texting fizzled quickly when she emoji killed the conversation. That was my first feeling of distress, that maybe she was not the willing participant in this love affair that I had imagined her being. From there she was still very warm at the office but texting became very labored and very non conversational with her. By 6 weeks in I was unsatisfied and feeling the full pain of my emotions for her. That’s when I initially found LwL. About 8 weeks in I had my first full good cry over her as I continued to long for her affection and attention but didn’t feel it. At that point I knew something was severely wrong with me, I consumed LwL, and got into therapy. It’s been a long 2 year road since.
My LE is very rooted in a rescue fantasy. Initially I had told myself a story that LO was dissatisfied in her marriage (she has a difficult marriage) and was looking to me to fulfill a romantic need. I wanted to give her that. Not necessarily sexually but emotionally. Turns out she was not looking to be rescued.
Dr L,
This blog takes us right back to an older one on hormonal links on limerence eg an old blog on testosterone and limerence (I seem to recall that evidence was inconclusive, either way as to whether bonding (oxytocin) was linked?). Must go and read that again…
I find De Beauvoir so interesting because she considered biology and anthropology as well as social constructs of gender. Interestingly, both sides of the gender critical debate claim her.
Yet despite all her awareness, she was also saddled with such terrible men in her own personal life (as Mila points out). = An example of sublimation of her own needs, as gender norms dictate? I dunno, I flip flop a bit on this stuff. Very subjective and depends on the lens one uses to read it!
Thanks for a great blog today. When I looked this morning and there was no new blog, I thought you had blown us off for your new book 😆.
And if so, its a worthwhile sacrifice (i thought, “I am glad Dr L is pacing himself…”)
Hi Speedwagon,
When you lay it out like this, it seems like your LE was almost over before it began, in terms of the highs, the euphoria. But the aftermath and managing that has obviously been so very long and drawn out. Its hardly a fair trade.
I’m afraid that everytime I see my LO it goes euphoric again, setting me right back.
My LE is rooted in validation with some rescue fantasy (he is a bit odd and no one understands him like I do, yeah right 🙄). Anyway, this aspect does not seem to be gendered as we are both working along a similar (and familiar) susceptibilities to the darned rescue fantasy….
“My LE is very rooted in a rescue fantasy. Initially I had told myself a story that LO was dissatisfied in her marriage (she has a difficult marriage) and was looking to me to fulfill a romantic need. I wanted to give her that. Not necessarily sexually but emotionally. Turns out she was not looking to be rescued” . “Limerence is a fantasy , that’s all it is” – Crappy Childhood Fairy
The talk of prey and predators reminded me of a powerful song by one of my favorite songwriters Jason Molina (RIP), a love-addict and alcoholic whose songs resonate with me strongly. His album “The Lioness” is a look into the heart and mind of a man who experiences love as himself being completely consumed and devoured by his lover, and on the songs “Tigress” and “The Lioness” he explicitly casts himself as prey and his lover as predator.
From the title track:
“Whether you save me
Whether you savage me
I want my last look to be the moon in your eyes
Want my heart to break if it must break in your jaws
Want you to lick my blood off your paws
It is for me the eventual truth
It is that look of the lioness to her man across the Nile”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wxAaf16xXRk
Another song on that same album called “Being in Love” starts with the lines:
“Being in love means you are completely broken
Then put back together, the one piece that was yours
Is beating in your lovers breast
She says the same thing about hers”
And ends with:
“And I am proof that the heart is a risky fuel to burn
Yeah, we are proof that the heart is a risky fuel to burn
What’s left after that’s all gone I hope to never learn
But if you stick with me you can help me
I’m sure we’ll find new things to burn”
Another man who “upon [Nietzsche’s] word” is not a man?
Dr. L,
Isn’t this statement essentially true for limerents: “As for man, if he loves a woman, what he wants is that love from her”. Putting aside the gender basis of the statement, isn’t it so that the main point of limerence is that a limerent doesn’t really love the LO and instead it is something they want for themselves, to compensate for their own shortcomings more than an actual selfless love? For example, if they feel their emotional needs are not met, they seek out a LO that they feel meets those needs? Reading that quote from the book really hits home for me that my love is often selfish more than selfless. Even when “devoted”, it is a devotion that satisfies my needs rather than having a partner’s needs at the forefront of my actions/thoughts. Gosh, that realization is quite damning, I suppose.
“Any light bulb moments when mismatched expectations suddenly became clear?”
I’m not sure if this is the kind of thing you were looking for, but the very last time I spoke with my LO (only a chat-based relationship online), they were going away for a few weeks, so I asked if they could email me so that I wouldn’t have to wait around, not knowing when exactly they would return. Considering at this point we had both said things like, “I love you,” “I only want you,” “I need you,” etc., I thought this request was reasonable. However, the response was a resounding no. “I don’t usually do that [email],” I was told. Talk about mismatched expectations. To me, our relationship was, for lack of a better term, “real”. Yet, it was clear from their statement that two things were true: they did not think the relationship was real; they did this with others (“I don’t usually”). That realization caused so much despair and pain that it spurred me to seek answers and so found this concept limerence.
Aside from the other minor differences already listed between male and female limerents, I’d add the rescuse fantasy for male limerents. I can’t recall any female limerents wanting to save their LOs, unless I’m just not remembering the posts. I don’t know that a lot of women want to save a man. Maybe help him reach his potential but not save him. The idea of having to save him may turn a lot of women off.
Hi Marcia,
I really like this point. Might I ask, do you think that certain people encourage males to feel they are rescuing someone? In other words, is it a female trait (broadly speaking, of course) to want to be “rescued”? If so, is that act of rescuing somehow linked to devotion? i.e. if he is more likely to “rescue” me, then he is more likely to be devoted to me. Or am I reading too much into all of this and it’s just a stupid male trait. LOL
Invalid,
“In other words, is it a female trait (broadly speaking, of course) to want to be “rescued”? ”
I don’t think so. I personally find it kind of icky and cringey. If a man wanted to rescue me, it implies he thinks I don’t have my s**t together. Not only that, it implies he thinks he has so much of his together, he can help me with mine. That seems arrogant and narcississtic. And he’s also determining what I need. That sounds like a parental relationship.
“Might I ask, do you think that certain people encourage males to feel they are rescuing someone? ”
Most definitely.
IU, Marcia,
Rescuer fantasy is cultural, probably coming from the Western chivalry tradition. In the East, a male’s traditional role is to provide and protect — more territorial. Once married, wife (wives) belong to husband, not the other way around.
However, in the traditional Tibetan culture, a girl/woman could have several respectful boyfriends/consorts (marries only one) … In several Southern Asian nations, educated/trained independent Priestess, respected and revered, could chose and receive male consorts; they did not live together like a couple.
To have surrogate-parental LO differs from the “peer” rescue fantasy.
Snow,
“In the East, a male’s traditional role is to provide and protect”
I think that’s probably also true in the West. The roles seem to give men a purpose. But I’d say that providing and protecting are different than rescuing.
I wonder what the traditional female roles are, outside of childbearing and nest building.
Marcia,
That was what I meant — rescuing is different from proving and protecting. In a macho culture, women were/are not viewed as equal to men, thus “unworthy” to be rescued.
Outside childbearing and nest building, there was almost no other roles for traditional females, except whores, spinster artists, or Priestess in a few Buddhistic cultures — they were highly respected, unmarried and never bore children.
Snow,
“Outside childbearing and nest building, there was almost no other roles for traditional females, except whores, spinster artists, or Priestess in a few Buddhistic cultures — they were highly respected, unmarried and never bore children.”
Hmmm …. those roles sound more interesting than the childbearing and nest building. 🙂
Marcia,
I was treated in the 3rd category once after divorce by a truly disciplined and deported Buddhist (a westerner, working in IT field) who could help maximize a female’s potential, sexual, cosmological power — “If one is treated like a [high Priestess] lady, one will become a [high Priestess ]lady.” (“My Fair Lady”)
But because he’s so enlightened and peaceful and I was drama-limerent, there was no highs and lows, only an emotional flat line in interacting with him (though respectful and worshiping), I got so bored that six months later I introduced him to one of my single gfs who speaks his mother tongue. I had zero jealousy.
He was not a LO material in a thousand years! I would rather limerent for a mad Hamlet on stage, which would at least spice up my trivial, gray existence! 😜💥
Snow,
“only an emotional flat line in interacting with him (though respectful and worshiping), I got so bored that six months later I introduced him to one of”
You mean he was worshipping you? If so, I don’t care for that. I want someone to be into me but not fawning. It’s a turn off.
Marcia,
He sincerely warships and “serves” all women, one of Buddhism branches… I don’t think he’s an Aspie.
Even if a woman wants to be treated like a Queen, I can assure you, you’d be bored out of your mind to be with such a devoted, white-collar “slave”…
Adam,
“Provide, protect and preside is invariably intertwined with the rescue complex. “
“Rescues” implies the other side is under some kind of stress or dire situations, eg, a knight rescues a lady or damsel under an imminent attack. “Provide, protect and preside” occur in a peaceful time for a women’s overall comfort.
In the modern time, women can work and earn a living on her own, and even thrive better professionally, then why do some still want to be “rescued”? To me, that mentality feels condescending.
In an emotional domain, we all know that there is no precondition which sex is stronger or weaker; it is tied to one’s social and economical status.
The sentiment behind what you are saying is very sweet and noble Adam. And it is very lovely to be protected, at least in the sense of being looked after and cared for. That function is not the excusive domain of men though is it? – applies both ways within any adult relationship.
Agree with Snow and Marcia… there are no lions out there trying to eat us any more so the assumption women need men to rescue them is implying women are incapable in some way compared to men. Although I have come across female “rescuers” on this site too e.g. the ‘save him from himself’ trope. But far fewer I suspect.
(I especially struggle with the word “preside” in this context. It is absolutely NOT the male role to be in charge of women!)
Snow,
“Even if a woman wants to be treated like a Queen, I can assure you, you’d be bored out of your mind to be with such a devoted, white-collar “slave”…”
I know what you are saying. The fawning, the obseqiousness. It’s not applealing. Being bombarded with gifts and calls and cards. It’s too much.
Marcia,
I was talking about the bedroom…. No “slave” for a Priestess on an altar, either, please! It should be a harmonious, energetic dance….
Snow,
“I was talking about the bedroom…. No “slave” for a Priestess on an altar, either, please! ”
Ah, yes. I agree. When someone does that, they are really hoping from a big response from you. The whole thing clenches me up.
Marcia,
There are lots of women out there who want to save a man.
We may be quibbling over semantics but rescuing “bad boys” from themselves is a long-standing trope. All they need is the love of a good woman…
It’s #4 in https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-allure-of-bad-boys-and-girls/
LE,
“We may be quibbling over semantics but rescuing “bad boys” from themselves is a long-standing trope. All they need is the love of a good woman…”
There may be some of that, but I think part of the “bad boy” allure is wanting to “win” him and have him pick you over his other options. It’s like trying to “tame” Mick Jagger. You’ll be the one woman who can hold onto him.
Limerents seem to want to become that “one woman” to all LOs, especially “bad boys”….
Snow,
“Limerents seem to want to become that “one woman” to all LOs, especially “bad boys”….”
Most definitely.
My LO has cognitive impairment, OCD and recently experienced significant personal loss (sold his beloved home because of a breakup, lost only sibling and father, etc…). I could both commiserate on many points but I am also younger and wealthier and cherished the idea of becoming LO’s significant other and caregiver. In exchange I would become, and remain, special to him. He once called me a “special person” and it sent me swooning for weeks. I realized quite recently this is all I have ever wanted: I want to be special. But I know the moment was short lived and is now gone for good. He doesn’t want me to take care of him. He very much ignores me now… and it’s as it should be because I’m married to someone who loves me a great deal… It’s just that I’m the weak one in the relationship: emotionally, cognitively, professionally, economically… across the board… I guess I wanted to not be in this position anymore. I liked the idea of being of service and being of utility. I think maybe my love language is by action. I don’t feel like I serve much of a purpose in my relationship because my husband takes care of everything (and effortlessly). I know I’m an outlier but often wish I had married a lower class man like my LO.
Hi SJ,
I’m so sorry your LO doesn’t care for your cares. Maybe he’s a very proud man and feel embarrassed that someone has to help him, he must feel useless since the macho characteristics are that men are the protectors and the providers . So, he must feel threatened by you in that respect?
I tell you this, because my SO gets very defensive when he gets sick, not wanting my help and saying he can do it by himself. He gets very angry at me when he is in a hospital bed, and really needs some help; he prefers a nurse or his son to care for him. I believe he feels bad being vulnerable in front of me. He doesn’t want to show his weakness. I respect that because that’s the way he is: the strong, fix it all man, never needing help…
Try to find other ways to comfort him that are not so obvious to him that you’re caring for him. Tell him a joke, treat him like any other healthy person. Besides, if he has cognitive issues, that’s a difficulty on itself.
On checking with my friends, they all say the same thing happens with their husbands when they need help, it’s as if you’re questioning their manhood. It’s a complex I believe.
Best wishes and good luck.
Thank you for your kind response Nisor. You are spot on in your assessment of LO and pride and it makes me sad that this is an added struggle for him (and us!). After discussing it with my best friend I’ve decided I will soon open up a (limited) conversation about him with a trusted coworker of ours. This coworker has known LO since the late 90’s, has witnessed a lot of his life events and it’s pretty obvious he knows about the mutual attractions LO and I have had for each other over this past year. He’s a deeply intuitive person that I trust. I want his advice about how to handle LO’s memory lapses… Once again this week he’s forgotten my birthday, that my mother died of alcoholism and that he’s gifted me an antique desk for my second home that he’s got in storage. Each of these items has been discussed, in detail, probably a dozen times yet testerday when I mentioned my mother’s death he reacted like he was truly hearing it for the first time: “Oh SJ, I’m so sorry… that’s truly awful!” … I told him it was okay and he was like, “No it’s not!!!”. I found the situation both a little amusing and awkward and would like to get my coworker’s opinion about how he handles these moments (as well as just making sure he’s aware of them). Right now I’m just going along with it, but I’m leaning towards making LO aware when this happens as well as giving him just a lot of reassurances that it’s okay (we have no choice in that anyway), and maybe getting to the point of asking LO how he would like for me to approach him in these moments. This will require an extreme amount of trust and tolerance of vulnerability that I’m not quite sure we’re ready for… that’s why I’m talking to our mutual friend/coworker first…. side note: I really doubt we can call this “limerence” at this point. I’m well beyond the fantasies of being pair-binding/bonding!
Here are the slightly cynical views of a cynical Australian who has devoured both “Love and Limerence” and “The Second Sex”.
I was under the impression that de Beauvoir (from here on I will call her “Beaver”) was so impressed with Tennov’s work because Tennov’s work kind of disproved a lot of the stuff Beaver wrote in “The Second Sex”. I think Beaver was genuinely wowed rather than threatened by a different perspective on relations between the sexes, which was just as convincing as Beaver’s own. Hence, her warm endorsement of Tennov’s book. So props to Beaver for being intellectually open!!
Tennov’s work suggests limerence has strong roots in human biology, overrides a lot of cultural conditioning, and is a pretty similar experience (emotionally) for both men and women. Beaver focused very heavily on the cultural conditions that make men “men” and make women “women”. Those cultural conditions were probably a lot stronger 50+ years ago, rigidly reinforced by religion, etc.
For its time, Beaver’s work was groundbreaking. However, it may be a little dated now. Germaine Greer’s “The Female Eunuch” is an updated version of “The Second Sex” (if you can call the 70s updated). It’s shorter, easier to read, and a heck of a lot more entertaining. (Greer also mixes in a lot of Shakespeare with her feminist observations, being a Shakespearian scholar of the first water).
I think Beaver was writing from a personal perspective at times in “The Second Sex”, although she herself probably didn’t realise it. She had to edit out some (autobiographical) self-gratification stuff, if you know what I mean, so as not to offend the Catholic church of the day. She had to censor what she wrote.
However, her work was/is an authoritative text because there weren’t a lot of books at that time focusing on women’s actual lived experience. Beaver was kind of the first scholar to take women’s lived-experience-as-women as a subject for serious academic study. I think Beaver thought she spoke for all women, and not just educated French women with highly-supportive partners. But Beaver was quite a masculine woman, both by the standards of the day and by modern standards too. (Women back then didn’t aggressively pursue philosophy).
Beaver probably saw her male partner, Sartre, as a kind of god. But I don’t think she saw him as a god in the bedroom. Beaver and Sartre had an open relationship (never married each other, never shared a home). They both had many outside partners. Beaver slept with both men and women, and procured women for Sartre, which actually sounds deeply disturbing to many modern feminists. (Beaver may have turned a blind eye to the sexual exploitation of younger, more naive women by Sartre – a crime most modern feminists can’t really forgive).
If Beaver found a man to have “ecstatic union” with, it may have been American novelist Nelson Algren. I think Satre was an intellectual companion for Beaver, and a mentor. Algren was the one who gratified the sensual side of Beaver’s nature. But, apparently, even in this most romantic of relationships, the physical intimacy faltered and faded – or didn’t really get off the ground in the first place. Even in consummated mutual limerence, there can be a big gap between “fantasy” and “reality”. 😉
Tennov suggests that limerent = shy predator and LO = wily prey. So, in effect, in Tennov’s view, the limerent is always playing what Beaver would consider a masculine role and the LO is always playing what Beaver would consider a feminine role. I’m not sure many female limerents would be happy to see their desire painted masculine. They probably feel their desire expresses the very core of their womanhood. And I’m sure very few male LOs self-identify as “prey”.
Not to be unkind to Beaver, but I think Beaver’s “archetypal man” may have been a projection of what Beaver herself wanted in a man. Or what she thought she wanted in a man. Alternatively, the archetype she came up with may have been a stereotype of the time i.e. all Frenchmen are libidinous monsters, and Beaver was just trotting out old cultural scripts. (She couldn’t very well say that Frenchmen aren’t great lovers – that would be bad publicity for the whole nation of France! Think of the lost tourist dollars! Think of the devastation to the film industry!) 🤣
Just as it is in the interest of all women in certain times/cultures to play up their chastity, it is in the interest of all men in certain times/cultures to play up their virility. I think this is the main lesson we can take away from Beaver: a great deal of reading material on the sexes is actually witty propaganda, and not fact. Beaver was the wittiest of propagandists. But who knows if she really believed what she wrote? I think “The Second Sex” was a private joke between her and Sartre. But she used enough long words to con the starstruck public. 🙄😇
Hi Sammy,
maybe I’m a woman and a bit inclined to defend women, I think de Beauvoir was deep down torn between many things- between fitting in in the masculine world of writers and artists as one of them, and proving to be as independent and above certain emotions as Sartre would have liked her to be, basically fulfilling his view of her (including allowing him his flings with younger women and even getting them for him, but at the same time being jealous like hell and only avoiding that by feeling superior to them because she led them to him- very twisted), also having this suppressed and un -feminist wish of being seduced and „wiped out“ by physical ecstatic union, so she threw herself into this limerence for Algren and suffered a lot there etc.
I think she had a difficult role to play, being extremely gifted and wanting to live it out and not be an „artist‘s wife“ but an artist, in a time where this was rare, and still having her vulnerabilities and complexes. I think she played along with much of what Sartre wanted without it really being her nature.
I cannot remember much from „the second sex“ , I don’t think it was a con, but it might have been heavily influenced by several not really objective factors.
„ So, in effect, in Tennov’s view, the limerent is always playing what Beaver would consider a masculine role and the LO is always playing what Beaver would consider a feminine role.“
Interesting! You‘ve got such a quick and observing mind, amazing.
“… I think de Beauvoir was deep down torn between many things- between fitting in in the masculine world of writers and artists as one of them, and proving to be as independent and above certain emotions as Sartre would have liked her to be …”
@Mila.
Ah, you have a most refined mind! I think that’s a very wise and kind way to look at Beaver and her legacy – as a woman who was deeply conflicted about what roles she should play in life. Perhaps “The Second Sex” should be read not as a how-to manual, but as evidence of some huge personal struggle?
I guess sometimes we want our heroes/heroines to be perfect. especially by modern moral standards, and are disappointed when we learn about their real and/or perceived shortcomings? 🤔
Do men and women experience love completely differently, as “The Second Sex” suggests? Sometimes, I feel that Beaver was describing her own experience as a limerent woman in love, but the archetypal male she is describing (possibly based on Sartre) is a non-limerent male, a Gallic Lothario. In other words, in this particular love affair, love consumes the female party but not the male party. Early on in her career, might Beaver have assumed that female = limerent and male = non-limerent? I.e. might Beaver have been unaware that males can also experience limerence?
Perhaps, erotically, Beaver, did want to lose herself in a man’s embrace, and completely forget herself. And there’s a great deal of pleasure to be had in that kind of surrender, according to the unsung experts on the subject. Beaver writes how a woman basically has to descend to an almost animal level of consciousness to enjoy herself in the bedroom. But I think Beauvoir also valued her independence.
In other words, I hypothesise Beaver was a woman capable of completely losing herself to a male lover but at the same time she feared what this temporary “loss of self” would mean. (Maybe she feared this temporary “loss of self” would entail a permanent “loss of self”?) I think she feared that if she fully surrendered to a man in erotic terms, he would see that she had surrendered, and he would cease to desire her as a result. Beaver, like all women presumably, expresses fear about losing the desire of the man she loves. Beaver’s fate worse than death = to be desired no longer by her chosen mate.
In Beaver’s worldview, a woman when dealing with a man must always hold one trump card in her hand, and full surrender to the demands of the male would be giving up that trump card. And so the delicate game of heterosexual brinkmanship must continue – the female accepts sexual frustration, even in the arms of her preferred male partner, as the price she must pay to retain the real and/or imagined respect of said male partner.
In “The Second Sex”, Beaver does touch on this terrible conflict women face between yearning for intimacy and yearning for autonomy. Perhaps it’s a conflict all human beings face, but we don’t all face it on such a tortured and conscious level as Beaver did?
I don’t think “The Second Sex” was a con. That was a little Australian humour of the facetious variety. (Australians love to say that everything is a con. We’re a deeply suspicious bunch, terrified of being scammed). I think Beaver and Sartre were major public figures, however, and at times (probably late in their careers, long after the publication of “The Second Sex”) they would have been tempted to play up to the image of “intellectual giants”, etc. They might have got a little drunk on their own hype. Fame can sometimes adversely affect a person’s judgement.
I think Beaver was sincere in writing “The Second Sex”. However, for modern readers, it IS heavy-going. It seems pretentious to people born after 1970, and seems a bit lumbered by class. Also, as Dr. L observes, the overarching view of gender relations Beaver presents is pretty bleak…
In Beaver’s milieu, men certainly appeared to hold all the cards, and women just had to fit around the men in their lives. Occasionally, a very bright women might come along, a very bright women such as Beaver, and this very bright woman might be able to hold her own with men intellectually. However, fate wasn’t always kind to intelligent women with an independent streak. Perhaps “The Second Sex” really shows us why second-wave feminism was necessary at a certain point in history?
It seems to me that the men and women in “The Second Sex” don’t really love each other. It seems to me that the men and women in “The Second Sex” are just fighting a war of attrition with one another. And women are doomed to lose this war, because older women rapidly lose their allure to males in the same age bracket while older men can still attract younger women as partners. I.e. female beauty can inspire incredible lust in the male sex, to be sure, but females can’t bank on such beauty lasting forever.
“Bad faith” is a phrase that crops up an awful lot in “The Second Sex”. Beaver seems to think that most of the heterosexual relationships of her era were built on “bad faith”. However, I don’t know if she ever found a way to counter this looming spectre of “bad faith” in her own romantic relationships. It’s like Beaver could diagnose an illness for us, but she couldn’t provide us with a cure. We’re still looking for the cure today.
I think (I hope) Beaver found tenderness with Algren. I don’t know much about their love story. It is poignant to think that this relationship, so different in nature from her one with Sartre, also brought her suffering.
Germaine Greer thinks Beaver’s key mistake was that Beaver couldn’t move from archetypal “Consort” to archetypal “Mother” in her understanding of herself as “Woman”. Beaver remained stuck in the “girlfriend phase” of womanhood i.e. the dutiful supplicant/perpetual helpmeet. If Beaver had been able to channel both “Consort” and “Mother” energies, she might have been less under the sway of Sartre’s powerful personality. 🤔😉
Hi Sammy,
wow!
Unfortunately I cannot recall much of „the second sex“, so can’t judge, I would have to reread it.
But I also think that there was a pressure of some sort on her to perform, to write a highly intellectual book.
I do recall that her relationship with Algren was at times fulfilling but always a lot of anxiety involved- typical limerence, since he was on another continent, there was a huge build-up of fantasy etc, and I think she suffered a lot of anxiety about if he really loves her etcetc… I read their letters, but 20 years ago . In some novel she describes this relationship accurately with changed names.
I also remember that the last part of her memoirs ends on a rather depressive note. I don’t think she ever got out of this conflict between being the superior intellectual woman and , as you said, the insecure girl- part in her, something unresolved and vulnerable.
I always felt for her.
@Mila.
Hello again. Sorry for showboating. It is very hard to resist to urge to show off. Clearly a little fault of mine! Now if only I could find some lucrative outlet for my only-too-evident brilliance… 🤣
I can tell you have a soft spot for Simone. She sounds like a very nice lady, all and all. I never read her letters or her fiction. But if I did read her other works, I’m sure I’d get a much fuller picture of who she was as a person.
“The Second Sex” was/is an amazing piece of writing. “Erudite” would be an understatement. I think it is still relevant today, but modern folk don’t have the patience for long books. De Beauvoir (or The Beaver, as friends sometimes call her) did deserve all the praise she got. 🙂
Sammy,
show off as much as you like, it’s enjoyable, there are gold nuggets thrown in all over your posts.
I haven’t read Beauvoir for ages and might anyway not remember her right. But I always liked her fluent style and way to tell about things.
I just felt she was not at peace with herself, there was a sadness showing up quite often.
Sammy,
“So, in effect, in Tennov’s view, the limerent is always playing what Beaver would consider a masculine role and the LO is always playing what Beaver would consider a feminine role. I’m not sure many female limerents would be happy to see their desire painted masculine.”
That doesn’t bother me. I think limerence, at least for me, pushed me to pursue more than I might have otherwise. Normal rules didn’t apply! 🙂 The pursuer role flipped and shifted and over time — he did a lot of push/pull–but I wasn’t always sitting there passively waiting for him.
Looking back at it now, his push/pull dynamic should have been an obvious bad sign, but we limerents have a tendency to ignore the signs. 🙂
Marcia,
I think rules don’t apply to limerents, male or female, in their passion for LOs , both genders will pursue shamelessly until either reciprocated or rejected or if it’s a flaky LO, the limerent may give up the pursuing , exhausting all possibilities, until finally he/she understands it’s useless… therefore the sufferings, rumination and craving afterwards , and going NC to avoid total collapse or madness.
Nisor,
There is a situation when an intellectual or a philosophical limerent (intentionally?) pauses (then presume again) pursuing/chasing LO, worrying/sensing that once s/he gets the desired LO, s/he would be disappointed: falling into the other side of the equation — boredom. In this scenario, the said limerent does not maximumly suffer limerence.
“Life swings like a pendulum backward and forward between pain and boredom.” — Schopenhauer
The task again: keep a desire alive, without getting the desired!
That is an interesting way of looking at it Snow i.e. using the belief that reality will never measure up to the fantasy as that is oftentimes true.. such good anti-limerence fodder. I have two disappointing limerent consummations: one was amongst the worst sex of my life as no real connection; the second was the best sex of my life but was followed by a shallow relationship that extinguished our mutual desire quickly.
“The task again: keep a desire alive, without getting the desired!”
Where is the fun in that? 🙂
For me the latter is a pre-requisite for the former. I have to believe rationally that, without barriers, something mutual and real could happen and that it would be good on all fronts – intellectually, emotionally, physically.
Nisor,
“I think rules don’t apply to limerents, male or female, in their passion for LOs , both genders will pursue shamelessly until either reciprocated or rejected or if it’s a flaky LO, the limerent may give up the pursuing , exhausting all possibilities, until finally he/she understands it’s useless… ”
Yes, I agree with you. So the traditional ideas of masculine pursuing and feminine receiving don’t really apply.
Allie,
“The task again: keep a desire alive, without getting the desired!”
Where is the fun in that? 🙂”
I agree. I wanted the desired. And the desire!
There was no fun in all the wanting and never having.
Marcia,
“I agree. I wanted the desired. And the desire!
There was no fun in all the wanting and never having.”
Every one wants fun, but no one can get ALL she/he wants, especially in Limerence. Then what are you going to do? Suffering, adjusting the desire, or walking away?
Imaginations and desires have their own fun to a mind. Pursuing is fun, getting the result is not only up to one’s efforts… so enjoy the journey is the key!
About the desire and the desired, see my other post — one could have only one, not two simultaneously (maybe for a short period time). I did not understand why after I experienced a disappointment again and again in many other aspects of my life, e.g. getting a degree from an elite college. My joy lasted before I took off my ceremonial gown. 🎓
With a goal (mental, emotional, physical) in head, I always enjoyed the journey — pursuing game, so much more than the expected outcome. 🚗
Snow,
“Every one wants fun, but no one can get ALL she/he wants, especially in Limerence. Then what are you going to do? Suffering, adjusting the desire, or walking away?”
It depends on what else is there after the limerence dies. Hopefully, an actual relationship that could go the distance. But the first part, the limerence part, is over. The second part is different.
” I did not understand why after I experienced a disappointment again and again in many other aspects of my life, e.g. getting a degree from an elite college. My joy lasted before I took off my ceremonial gown. 🎓”
I have read about this happening. People spend years getting a PhD and when they finally do, they become depressed. It was pursuing the goal and not the goal itself that motivated them, and now they have nothing to pursue.
But I personally feel different about limerence. It is a really bad idea to make a specific person a goal because you have no idea how they will respond (I’ve done it; I don’t recommend it.). But I’d say in that instance the the disappointment of not getting the goal was maybe as bad or worse as getting it.
After a while, thwarted desire … sexual tension that is never relieved … I lose interest. My patience starts to wane, as does my patience with the other person who seems fine with not taking action.
Marcia,
“It depends on what else is there after the limerence dies. Hopefully, an actual relationship that could go the distance. But the first part, the limerence part, is over. The second part is different.”
I tend to agree with you here, although I’m still in the last bit of LE. I see there is no way going backwards, but I also can’t foresee what’s coming. I hope to sense better after May. I’m going to COO in June for 3 weeks.
”I have read about this happening. People spend years getting a PhD and when they finally do, they become depressed. It was pursuing the goal and not the goal itself that motivated them, and now they have nothing to pursue.”
The same with other aspects of life as well — pursing a goal, having a sense of purpose, is the best part. So I kept looking for new goals to pursue, because as soon as I relaxed a bit, I felt blue. I have a fate of never-ending mental “laboring”.
“But I personally feel different about limerence. It is a really bad idea to make a specific person a goal because you have no idea how they will respond.”
Of course, not making a specific person a goal — he is a fleshy, evolving human being, not a degree or a profession! As I said many times before, in any matter involving more than one person, we could only try our 50% of efforts , and leave other 50% to other side or Fate.
“But I’d say in that instance the disappointment of not getting the goal was maybe as bad or worse as getting it.”
It’s probably equally bad, if a desire-gratification is only based on that extremely selfish Eros, without any other 6 types of love involved. Limerence is not love, it’s an addictive obsession. I would never recommend anyone to go through it. I did not ask for it but ignorantly fell into it. I don’t think it could happen again, with so much awareness now.
“After a while, thwarted desire … sexual tension that is never relieved … I lose interest. My patience starts to wane, as does my patience with the other person who seems fine with not taking action.”
Yeah, I could totally understand your frustrations and disappointments. My LE aim was quite different (turned down PA chances), and my own imaginations and eccentric behaviors, with the enigmatic LO lingering nearby, actually met a big chuck of my cptsd needs, so my disappointment in the end is not so devastating. I tried my best to see “the blessing” in disguise in this LE.
Less than 2 months, there would be nothing left for me to further speculate. Then, I can tell how I would feel in my post LE.
Snow,
“I tend to agree with you here, although I’m still in the last bit of LE.”
I meant that if you have a relationship with an LO, the LE is the first part of that relationship. The second part is after the LE wears off. That’s when you hope there’s something there beyond the limerence. You wrote that limerence isn’t love. It isn’t. Love is what comes after limerence, if you’re lucky.
” I have a fate of never-ending mental “laboring”.”
I have periods of being really productive and then periods where I’m not. I’m old. I’m tired of being on the hamster wheel.
“Of course, not making a specific person a goal — he is a fleshy, evolving human being, not a degree or a profession! ”
That’s what limerence is. Making a person your goal. At least it was for me. In retrospect, it was insane. 🙂
“As I said many times before, in any matter involving more than one person, we could only try our 50% of efforts , and leave other 50% to other side or Fate.”
Idk. Usually we get limerent for the wrong person. At least I do. I should have ignored “fate” and walked the other direction.
“It’s probably equally bad, if a desire-gratification is only based on that extremely selfish Eros, without any other 6 types of love involved.”
Six types of love? That sounds ambitious to experience with one person. 🙂
“so my disappointment in the end is not so devastating. I tried my best to see “the blessing” in disguise in this LE.”
That’s good. I see my LE as a failure.
“Less than 2 months, there would be nothing left for me to further speculate. Then, I can tell how I would feel in my post LE.”
I hope you can close the door on it and feel a sense of closure.
Snow,
I just remembered you have your Romeo appointment today. As the weeks go by, your outfits when you meet him should be getting shorter and tighter. 🙂
Marcia,
“I meant that if you have a relationship with an LO, the LE is the first part of that relationship. The second part is after the LE wears off. That’s when you hope there’s something there beyond the limerence. You wrote that limerence isn’t love. It isn’t. Love is what comes after limerence, if you’re lucky.”
I imagine/think that a healthy love should not involve LE stage (or just a little bit part of it), but developed/deepened after the glimmer hits, if that glimmer stays. My current one seems to have left me, only after one month exactly — LwL’s victory!
“I have periods of being really productive and then periods where I’m not. I’m old. I’m tired of being on the hamster wheel.”
Come on, you don’t sound old at all — age is measured by one’s mentality and psychology! Learning something new does not mean one has to be on the hamster wheel. I’ve just happened to be restless easily since young, always vaguely feeling something is pushing or urging me inside to be “perfect” — a huge cptsd feature! ,I often felt so bored or even “sick” if my mind was idle.
“That’s what limerence is. Making a person your goal. At least it was for me. In retrospect, it was insane. 🙂
My severe cptsd did not and could not make the unavailable LO the goal of my limerence, but my perceived surrogate-parental care or a “makeup” parenting from LO, and I got a lot of it! So my cptsd was a blessing in disguise, and I do not regret my LE as much as some of other limerents here.
“Usually we get limerent for the wrong person. At least I do. I should have ignored “fate” and walked the other direction.”
Aside from the current married LO, I could not tell, either in advance or during LE, which xLO was a “wrong person”. One needs to experience them to find out whether they’re wrong or not. And I grew up with the concept of Fate in romantic relationship, so we rarely walk out without making some efforts to find out.
“Six types of love? That sounds ambitious to experience with one person. 🙂”
At least have one or two of other seven:
Eros (sexual passion)
Philia (deep friendship)
Ludus (playful love)
Agape (love for everyone)
Pragma (longstanding love)
Philautia (love of the self)
Storge (family love)
Mania (obsessive love)
“I hope you can close the door on it and feel a sense of closure.”
Today I felt I could close it tomorrow (but my stomach has been feeling ill )! However, I know myself well — my mind/heart would swing back and forth along the way, although each time it removed a tiny bit more of my residual limerence, which involving “limerence” for my own desire, not the desired — LO or Romeo.
No one’s fault except my own mind, I’m feeling quite upset now…. 😌
Marcia,
Yesterday I sub-tutored a Tony Award winner for best director in Musical/play (his show is on in London now) and met his elegant wife (both middle aged). I was so impressed by the harmonious air the couple carries. They have grown like a brother and sister — elegant, sweet, modest, creative, and hard-working — the man spends at least one hour every single day to drill on his homework…
I immediately knew that’s the kind of “model” union/family I would love and want to be in or to have!
Snow,
Yesterday I sub-tutored a Tony Award winner for best director in Musical/play (his show is on in London now) and met his elegant wife (both middle aged).”
Oh, how cool. You’re teaching some interesting people. I’d probably pummel him with a lot of questions. 🙂 Where did he go to school? What was his career progression? How did he get to to such a high level of success?
” I was so impressed by the harmonious air the couple carries. They have grown like a brother and sister — elegant, sweet, modest, creative, and hard-working”
I don’t know if I’d want my SO to become like a brother. Although maybe that’s inevetiable.
” — the man spends at least one hour every single day to drill on his homework…”
A diligent student! 🙂
Snow,
“I imagine/think that a healthy love should not involve LE stage (or just a little bit part of it), but developed/deepened after the glimmer hits, if that glimmer stays. ”
Yes, some people have written about experiencing an LE with their SOs. I don’t think limerence always has to be bad if it can move into a mutually reciprocating, healthy relationship.
“Come on, you don’t sound old at all — age is measured by one’s mentality and psychology!”
No, age is measured by the tightness of your butt! 🙂
“So my cptsd was a blessing in disguise, and I do not regret my LE as much as some of other limerents here.”
That’s good. I don’t think I got much out of mine except disappointment and anger. I learned a lot after the LE … but lessons I wish I didn’t have to learn.
“Aside from the current married LO, I could not tell, either in advance or during LE, which xLO was a “wrong person”. One needs to experience them to find out whether they’re wrong or not.”
I’m going to disagree with you on that. I could tell, for example, when I met a previous LO that he only wanted a sex partner. He was clear about that. I wanted more from him. All of this was obvious in the first night. Another took forever to ask me out. He never did. I had to ask him. Another obvious sign.
” And I grew up with the concept of Fate in romantic relationship, so we rarely walk out without making some efforts to find out.”
I don’t know what you mean by some efforts. There were no “efforts” I could have made with the LO who only wanted sex to change his mind.
“At least have one or two of other seven”
I probably had the Eros and the Mania. Some of those other kinds of love … I’m not sure they accompany an LE. Maybe after the LE, if possible, if the person is a good partner.
“which involving “limerence” for my own desire, not the desired — LO or Romeo.”
I’m not sure what you mean. That you are missing the desire of limerence?
Marcia,
“Yes, some people have written about experiencing an LE with their SOs. I don’t think limerence always has to be bad if it can move into a mutually reciprocating, healthy relationship.”
Yes. Particularly if one or both sides have some knowledge about what limerence is and keep vigilance about their mental states. I know I can now, just look at what’s happening with my glimmer 🥹😔
“No, age is measured by the tightness of your butt! 🙂
Then do some booty workout, since muscle could always grow even at age of 100!
“I learned a lot after the LE … but lessons I wish I didn’t have to learn.”
In/through this LE, I’ve learned, beyond my wild imaginations, about myself and am still learning something new EVERY single day!
“I’m going to disagree with you on that. I could tell, for example, when I met a previous LO that he only wanted a sex partner.”
Those who “only wanted a sex partner” never became my LO! Remember, I had to glimmer at them FIRST, and up to today, I haven’t naturally glimmered at any guy who was/is “sex-fanatic”. My LOs are mostly not “normal men” based on Nietzsche, and quite feminine. Now, I think my subconscious might be an “shy predator” for a “wily prey”. 😘
”I don’t know what you mean by some efforts. There were no “efforts” I could have made with the LO who only wanted sex to change his mind.”
I meant after glimmering at a stranger, enigmatic LO, I would make some effort to find out who he was/is, and to possibly befriend/pair. Most uncomplicated men, or playboys, or Narcs approached me with those biologically “greedy-eyes” (two young fathers recently/ongoing 😒), and I could instinctively sense that at the first sight and stay away. My 3 major LOs did not have those greedy-eyes (they did not even know my existence at the time of my glimmer), but seemed to be intrigued later by my unconscious “shy predator’s” glimmering glances…
“I probably had the Eros and the Mania. Some of those other kinds of love … I’m not sure they accompany an LE.”
In my LE, I had Eros, Storge, Mania, and strived for Philia. Now through/in this LE , I’ve been gaining Philautia and hopefully Agape .
“which involving “limerence” for my own desire, not the desired — LO or Romeo.”
I’m not sure what you mean. That you are missing the desire of limerence?”
No, not the desire of limerence, but “love” of my own desire to love/desire a desired — a worthy Romeo (not a love/limerence object). The active love/desire is the best antidote against depression, because it stimulates the whole system, mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual, beyond any language, except music, could describe.
“You’re teaching some interesting people. I’d probably pummel him with a lot of questions. 🙂”
I am not paid to do that, so had to focus on his learning material. He’s in Wikipedia, so I’ve learned about his professional background. He’s amazingly modest, gentle, and eager to learn! He and his wife live 3 minute walk away from me, we use the same stores in the same neighborhood.
”I don’t know if I’d want my SO to become like a brother. Although maybe that’s inevitable.”
You must have heard the story that a long-term harmonious couple grow together “alike/matching” in appearance as if they were from same parents. It only means there is no sharp contrast/mismatch between their personalities. The couple have a grown son, looking like in his 30s in a family picture. His wife also looks like an artist of some sort (I’ll ask him this Sunday), and he speaks of her lovingly.
I can’t get this graceful, artistic, sweet couple (both still slim in their 60s) out of my mind — they are MORE attractive than Romeo, who is much younger, more handsome but not as culturally cultivated yet (I saw his guitar in the living area this time). His background/profession is in finance, not arts/cultures. 😊
I’m lucky that my private pupils (even that 3 years old) are mostly motivated or pumped up by my “highs” of teaching.
Snow,
“Then do some booty workout, since muscle could always grow even at age of 100!”
No amount of exercise or nutrition or plastic surgery can completely fix aging skin. No one tells you about that when you’re young. Aging is inevtiable.
“In/through this LE, I’ve learned, beyond my wild imaginations, about myself and am still learning something new EVERY single day!”
I didn’t want to learn it! 🙂 Who wants to learn about all their childhood traumas and limitations?
“Those who “only wanted a sex partner” never became my LO! Remember, I had to glimmer at them FIRST, and up to today, I haven’t naturally glimmered at any guy who was/is “sex-fanatic”. ”
I loved it. He was direct. He was confident. He knew what he wanted. He went after it. No waiting around for him to make a move. No having to give him a million signals.
“I meant after glimmering at a stranger, enigmatic LO, I would make some effort to find out who he was/is, and to possibly befriend/pair. ”
I don’t think I ever tried to befriend mine in the traditional sense (motivation is only platonic).
“The active love/desire is the best antidote against depression, because it stimulates the whole system, mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual, beyond any language, except music, could describe.”
I don’t know if it can stay in a “stimulation” stage forever.
“I am not paid to do that, so had to focus on his learning material.”
I know. I just think it would be interesting.
“You must have heard the story that a long-term harmonious couple grow together “alike/matching” in appearance as if they were from same parents.”
I have, but it maybe I’m too avoidant. It doesn’t appeal to me. It seems like all sexual tension is gone. But maybe it’s not possible to have that long term. Maybe you do become like brother/sister.
“No amount of exercise or nutrition or plastic surgery can completely fix aging skin. No one tells you about that when you’re young. Aging is inevtiable.”
Miss Marcia
I am 46 years old and about two weeks ago I had to start caring for my skin. It was so dry, cracked and raw it itched constantly. My mother in law, a former nurse, told me that happens when you get older. So now I have to use coconut oil on my skin to keep it healthy. My itching has gone down, and it’s not red and cracked from me scratching at it all the time. I have never up until now done any kind of skin care. I just took the dryness as a part of life. There’s a lot of things that they don’t tell you about getting old 🙂
Marcia,
“No amount of exercise or nutrition or plastic surgery can completely fix aging skin. No one tells you about that when you’re young. Aging is inevitable.”
True, aging/death is inevitable in both men and women in skin, is it the only factor for attractiveness and happiness in one’s life? So you think Beaver is right all along that attractiveness of women in society, even the modern one, is “cursed”/limited by their external appearance, and men would be only desire/in love with their looks, regardless beauty of their mind/personality?
“I didn’t want to learn it! 🙂 Who wants to learn about all their childhood traumas and limitations?”
😳 So it’s not good to truly “know thy self” in order to be stronger and wiser, and more content? Do you think one would be more blessed and luckier if one does not know and understand his/her childhood traumas? (In my case, I’d end up anxiously looking for a surrogate parent until my death bed…😱)
“I loved it. He was direct. He was confident. He knew what he wanted. He went after it. No waiting around for him to make a move. No having to give him a million signals.”
So you were a happy “prey” in the equation of “ecstatic union”, completely losing yourself in bedroom, right? (Yes, you told me you just wanted to be desired and taken?”
“I don’t think I ever tried to befriend mine in the traditional sense (motivation is only platonic).”
I grew up with a notion that friendship and love are one’s left and right hand and need to be hand-in-hand in a love matter; otherwise, it would last long. I know this notion made me avoid/repel a lot of amorous only approaches, thinking they’re too animalistic, base… and my mind was way stronger/masculine than most of women and some men I knew of. I wanted to be equal with LO both in living room and bedroom, particularly since 99% of them were drawn to me only for the latter….
“I don’t know if it can stay in a “stimulation” stage forever.”
Normally it’s impossible to stay in a ‘stimulation stage forever”, though it could last a bit longer with a potent imaginative mind, which would go deep blue when stimulation is low/gone.
“I have, but it maybe I’m too avoidant. It doesn’t appeal to me. It seems like all sexual tension is gone. But maybe it’s not possible to have that long term. Maybe you do become like brother/sister.”
I think this graceful and peaceful couple has provoked my inner child again: she would want them to be her ideal parents (her biological ones constantly made her in an anxiety mode). My womanhood is at rest in the presence of this artistic/cultured, sweet couple.
Remember my recent dream (in “dream” blog) in which there was this sunny, peaceful valley with pink Dalmatian pigs — a Shangli-la in the Unconscious? But another part of the Unconscious did not want to stay in this Shangli-la, she wanted to go back to the reality — the familiar environment (limerence?) in which she was abused again by “cruel” Romeo. I could help think that my Unconscious was so strongly warning me about a possible LE with Romeo… 😨
Then when I saw Romeo in person two days later after the dream, that familiar aura (most of my xLOs carried) on his face (I saw/sensed in our first meeting) was gone… 😞. How strange!
Typo: it is “otherwise, it would NOT last long.”
In COO, “solid, steadiness in a long term” is considered prosperous and healthy in business as well as in romance and other types of relation/friendships.
I did not know or recognize my odd “romantic nature” in all matters and always tried to hide it….
Just saw in my email —
****
Drag
Jan Beatty
They say I have attachment disorder
from years in the orphanage—I say
I’m attached to dirt: to the grit
of stones, pulverized metal from
the slag heap, I learned touch
from air, I fashioned love from
strangers. Your families
make no sense to me.
My mother’s the 4 barrel of a 409,
my heart’s dragstripped
from the shredded tires
of predators. Go ahead,
think of me—
throw the red flag down.
I’m one you never figured,
dead engine start on a quarter-mile strip,
my lo-jack is the split/
the pull away—
you back there,
me running the distance
*****
It seems that a lot of synchronicity has been occurring lately to me…
Snow,
“Is it the only factor for attractiveness and happiness in one’s life?”
Of course not. But it’s fun getting offers.
“So you think Beaver is right all along that attractiveness of women in society, even the modern one, is “cursed”/limited by their external appearance, and men would be only desire/in love with their looks, regardless beauty of their mind/personality?”
Not regardless of mind and personality, unless it’s a one-nighter, for example. But men are most attracted to women in their 20s. I think one of the dating sites did a study. So my advice is to either be in your 20s or look like you are. 🙂 In all seriousness, it sounds as if you are still getting a lot of offers … my actual advice is (I know you didn’t ask for it but I’m going to give it to you anyway :)) … you have too many rules. He can’t glimmer at you first, he can’t look at you with lusty eyes, etc. Loosen up the rules. 🙂 Trust me on this one. 🙂
“So it’s not good to truly “know thy self” in order to be stronger and wiser, and more content?”
It’s good to understand oneself but it stinks having to go through all the pain to gain the understanding. I don’t know if I’m more content. Just wiser.
“So you were a happy “prey” in the equation of “ecstatic union”, completely losing yourself in bedroom, right? (Yes, you told me you just wanted to be desired and taken?””
I don’t know about any of that. I didn’t feel like “prey.” I was an active participant in a situation with a man who was confident and knew what he wanted. I don’t know about “ecstatic union” and “losing myself.” That sounds like a poem or a song. 🙂 We hooked for many months after the first night. It definitely lived up to my idea of a hot seduction. 🙂 But I think you and I have different ideas about sex. The flip side of course was … it was painful. I wanted a lot more from him than a seduction.
“I grew up with a notion that friendship and love are one’s left and right hand and need to be hand-in-hand in a love matter; otherwise, it would last long. ”
That’s actually a good philosophy and if I were to date again, I’d look for both. Seems odd to realize at my age both are needed.
“I know this notion made me avoid/repel a lot of amorous only approaches, thinking they’re too animalistic, base”
I think things can start in the animalistic phase but grow from there. You don’t have to jump into bed with someone right away. You can take your time and see if more develops.
“She would want them to be her ideal parents (her biological ones constantly made her in an anxiety mode). My womanhood is at rest in the presence of this artistic/cultured, sweet couple.”
Ah, ok. They sound like an interesting couple. Don’t be greedy. I need some better parents, too. 🙂
“Then when I saw Romeo in person two days later after the dream, that familiar aura (most of my xLOs carried) on his face (I saw/sensed in our first meeting) was gone… 😞. How strange!”
Maybe that’s not a bad thing. Maybe you’re steering away from the aura of your past LOs.
Marcia,
“Of course not. But it’s fun getting offers.”
Rarely fun but mostly annoying in my past…. Due to my traumatic childhood experiences, I ran away from overwhelming lusty “offers”…. A shy instinctual/amorous request needed to be “initiated” by me. My Unconscious amorous who is “safe” by its first sight…. It never actively glimmered at any Narc or other types of bad LOs.
“But men are most attracted to women in their 20s. I think one of the dating sites did a study.”
Being attracted by a youth and dating her is one thing, to pursue a serious relationship with only youthful appearance is another. That’s why we have seen again and again, throughout history, tons of men were foolishly coupled by pretty/brainless young women, felt bored once they “succeeded, and then kept chasing. And after getting old, those “pretty young women” had little fulfilling substance inside themselves, and thus feeling hollow or unhappy when their men were after much younger ones or broke their union.
“So my advice is to either be in your 20s or look like you are. 🙂 In all seriousness, it sounds as if you are still getting a lot of offers … “
I’m not in my 20s or look like in my 20s, but my Coronary Arteries in heart (through a CT scan) shows they are still in 20s (shocked my doctor). I have an internal youthful ❤️ that tends to fall in limerence 😊
“
my actual advice is (I know you didn’t ask for it but I’m going to give it to you anyway :)) … you have too many rules. He can’t glimmer at you first, he can’t look at you with lusty eyes, etc. Loosen up the rules. 🙂 Trust me on this one. 🙂”
I don’t mind your caring advice at all, thank you, Sister! But I never MADE any rules consciously in any of my romance, or told myself what I needed do or what he should do… My Unconscious did all the pickings and I just a sort of followed with the typical limerence symptoms. As Sammy pointed out once: it was my Unconscious that glimmered at a LO within 5 seconds, the rest was the history helplessly controlled by crush or limerence. Without coming to LwL, I still would have not understood what had happened to my glimmers, those quarter, half or full limerence, and their correlation to my cptsd.
“It’s good to understand oneself but it stinks having to go through all the pain to gain the understanding. I don’t know if I’m more content. Just wiser.”
With more knowledge and understandings of myself, I’ve obtained a lot of acceptance, peace, reduced or stopped berating my ignorant, stupid and painful (re)actions caused by cptsd or induced by limerence. Such insights grant/bring forgiveness to one’s mistakes and regrets — the most important step for a recovery from limerence.
“I don’t know about any of that. I didn’t feel like “prey.” I was an active participant in a situation with a man who was confident and knew what he wanted. I don’t know about “ecstatic union” and “losing myself.” That sounds like a poem or a song. 🙂 :
I was referring to the discussion between Sammy and Mila about Beaver’s book “the Second Sex” in which what traditional men’s and women’s mentality and roles in bedroom. In a traditional mating/union, women/SOs were more like “prey”, “hunted/pursued” by macho men, and then lose herself to their men both in living room and bedroom, but men did not. However, during limerence, the identities of men and women and dynamic seem to be changed, Limerent (female or male) is a “shy predator” and LO a “wily prey”, the former chases that “ecstatic union”, often loses herself/himself during limerence.
“We hooked for many months after the first night. It definitely lived up to my idea of a hot seduction. 🙂 But I think you and I have different ideas about sex. The flip side of course was … it was painful. I wanted a lot more from him than a seduction.”
I’m a bit lost here, who’s this guy? One of earlier LOs? What happened after “many months”? Why was it painful? He would not give more?
“That’s actually a good philosophy and if I were to date again, I’d look for both. Seems odd to realize at my age both are needed.”
I really tried to befriend with the boy/man in all my romantic affairs, but almost never succeeded, except when physical intimacy was uninvolved. (After glimmer) I wanted caring, substantial friendship first, then through which to obtain substantial, stable love. But 99.9% of men’s lust is strong and “blind”, dominating their brain when they encounter a potential “prey”. I was too fearful and unwilling to be a “prey” either in living room or bedroom. Again, I wish I could be a stereotype French woman.
“I think things can start in the animalistic phase but grow from there. You don’t have to jump into bed with someone right away. You can take your time and see if more develops.”
Well, Glimmer is instinctual/“animalistic” based; without it, I would not even want to talk with a guy no matter how subjectively “attractive”or “genius” he’s in other women’s eyes!
“Maybe that’s not a bad thing. Maybe you’re steering away from the aura of your past LOs.”
I did not think of this point! You have such an enlightening view — once past LOs aura was gone from his face, I saw Romeo for who he was: just an ordinary, nice, good looking young man, eager and diligent to learn, and our interaction was strictly learning and teaching related. All the flutter in my chest was gone.
Of course, I felt down for a few days for the loss of the glimmer, but I’m “safe” now — could not and would not slip into another LE.
Marcia,
Typo: “My Unconscious knew who is… “
Sister Marcia:
I tried dating without much fun or success — went out with “dignified” attaché from a foreign embassy/consulate, a chief in a French restaurant, a romantic pianist baking marvelous fish in my oven, gorgeous managers/CEOs/, brainy lawyers/professors/journalists, creative writers/film makers, spiritual/energy practitioners… from the world over (within 2 digits).
However, a glimmer never showed her face, not even her nose during those dates! Guys from apps never generated a glimmer for me! I went to a few 1, 2, 3…-night(s) stand and my disappointments were beyond your English words could describe…. I will NOT get on another dating app before I die, period!
Snow,
“Rarely fun but mostly annoying in my past”
You may change your mind when you hit my age. You’ll miss getting the offers. 🙂
“…. Due to my traumatic childhood experiences, I ran away from overwhelming lusty “offers”….”
They don’t have to be overly “lusty.” Just someone showing interest.
“My Unconscious amorous who is “safe” by its first sight…. ”
I responded to the ptsd much differently. Too “safe” and I felt like I was being put into a sexual coma. 🙂
“Being attracted by a youth and dating her is one thing, to pursue a serious relationship with only youthful appearance is another.”
I don’t care if he’s just trying to just date her. A guy my age … if that’s what he wants, he should puruse it. I have no interest in being second choice.
“I don’t mind your caring advice at all, thank you, Sister!”
🙂
“But I never MADE any rules consciously in any of my romance, or told myself what I needed do or what he should do… My Unconscious did all the pickings and I just a sort of followed with the typical limerence symptoms.”
But what I’m saying is … stop following the unconscious. If I were to date again, I’d do it much more consciously. Because my unconscious has lured me into limerence. Nice and cute guy? Why not? I’d give it a shot.
“In a traditional mating/union, women/SOs were more like “prey”, “hunted/pursued” by macho men, and then lose herself to their men both in living room and bedroom, but men did not.”
What are the the women losing? I guess I look at it differently. Being pursued, and being pursued with confidence, was very sexy. I didn’t see myself as “prey.” I still made the decision to pick him.
” However, during limerence, the identities of men and women and dynamic seem to be changed, Limerent (female or male) is a “shy predator” and LO a “wily prey”, the former chases that “ecstatic union”, often loses herself/himself during limerence.”
This I agree with. You do lose yourself in limerence. You do things and pursue in a way you never would ordinarly do. Once the LO I mentioned did the initial pursuing, things started to flip back and forth: him pursuing, him pulling back, me pursuing, me pulling back, etc. I did a lot more and put up with a lot more than I would have with a non-LO.
” One of earlier LOs? What happened after “many months”? Why was it painful? He would not give more?”
Earlier LO. He moved away. I wanted some big romance. He wanted an FWB.
“I really tried to befriend with the boy/man in all my romantic affairs, but almost never succeeded, except when physical intimacy was uninvolved.”
Yes, sex seems to skew things.
” (After glimmer) I wanted caring, substantial friendship first”
If he tried to be my friend first, I thought that’s all he wanted. Or was taking too long to make a move.
In retrospect, there has to be a happy medium between someone pushing for the physical stuff too soon and leading too much with the friendship card.
“But 99.9% of men’s lust is strong and “blind”, dominating their brain when they encounter a potential “prey”.”
But I still think that you, as the woman, can slow things down a bit.
“Well, Glimmer is instinctual/“animalistic” based; without it, I would not even want to talk with a guy no matter how subjectively “attractive”or “genius” he’s in other women’s eyes!”
But I’m saying … throw out the idea of having to “glimmer.” At least right away. Within 5 seconds. I plan on it. I glimmer so rarely.
“I did not think of this point! You have such an enlightening view — once past LOs aura was gone from his face, I saw Romeo for who he was: just an ordinary, nice, good looking young man, eager and diligent to learn, and our interaction was strictly learning and teaching related. All the flutter in my chest was gone.”
I meant that maybe what is attracting you is changing now that you know about limerence.
“I will NOT get on another dating app before I die, period!”
I think apps take away the ability to meet someone organically and experience them as a whole person rather than a one-dimensional image and a few sentences in a profile. But at least you know they are available and have some kind of intial interest in you. Meeting available options is difficult as you get older.
Marcia,
“You may change your mind when you hit my age. You’ll miss getting the offers. 🙂”
I think I’ll still miss “the offers” mainly from qualified “LO material”, not ordinary folks. But from now on, I will try not to slip into another LE. But even with decreasing “offers”, I would not suffer terribly. I’ve suffered more from mental boredom or a lack of its stimulation.
“They don’t have to be overly “lusty.” Just someone showing interest.”
I meant overwhelming amount of “the offers”, not “overly lusty”. 98% of them were inadequate in bedroom and thus very disappointing. Without a glimmer, I would not give them a 2nd or 3rd chance to see me. (Remember that I was “trained” in doing physical energy work?)
“I responded to the ptsd much differently. Too “safe” and I felt like I was being put into a sexual coma. 🙂”
If you can’t comprehend the “safety” I’ve been talking about, then you’ve never experienced one type of trauma that I unfortunately did…. Sorry Sis, I can’t and won’t disclose here.
“I don’t care if he’s just trying to just date her. A guy my age … if that’s what he wants, he should pursue it. I have no interest in being second choice.”
I didn’t/don’t want to be the second choice, either. That’s why I tried to stay away from guys who only pursued women after their appearance and ignore who she’s as a whole person. But biologically they (and we) are driven to do so.
“But what I’m saying is … stop following the unconscious. If I were to date again, I’d do it much more consciously.”
I was talking about the past. Of course, from no on with awareness of my LE tendency, I’ll watch and analyze my Unconscious, like I did with my new glimmer and dreams (in glimmer and dream blogs). Once, an analysis is done, it becomes harder to emotionally, blindly follow Unconscious’ lead. I won’t purposefully DATE again, but organically meet people in “natural” settings.
“What are the women losing? I guess I look at it differently. Being pursued, and being pursued with confidence, was very sexy. I didn’t see myself as “prey.” I still made the decision to pick him.”
I suggest you read Sammy’s original commentaries and Mila’s replies in this blog about Beaver’s book “the Second Sex”. They speak much clearer in possibly answering your question. In the past, I was kind of treated like a “prey”, because those lovers/dates did not bother to get to know, respect, and love my mental being (only physical one)— that’s what Mom and COO traumatically did to me, the origins of my cptsd.
“Earlier LO. He moved away. I wanted some big romance. He wanted an FWB.”
That’s really painful, especially to us who has cptsd! Based on Crappy Childhood Faire, it’s wise not to stay in any FWB, unless you have other lovers or bf simultaneously.
”If he tried to be my friend first, I thought that’s all he wanted. Or was taking too long to make a move.”
I almost never had concerns about my sexual appeal, only worried that they (including LO #7) did not want to befriend me but only go after a PA with me.
“In retrospect, there has to be a happy medium between someone pushing for the physical stuff too soon and leading too much with the friendship card.”
In the past for me, there was always too much in the former, insufficient in the latter.
“But I still think that you, as the woman, can slow things down a bit.”
Yes. Certainly. With LO#7, no fingers were ever touched for 7 years, is that slow enough? 🤔 (4 years of which I was dealing with undiagnosed lymphoma and the related health issues)
“But I’m saying … throw out the idea of having to “glimmer.” At least right away. Within 5 seconds. I plan on it. I glimmer so rarely.”
Glimmer ALWAYS hit on me when I was least expecting or thinking about it. Once hit, my whole system – blood, energy/Qi, neurons immediately began to escalate to HIGH, literally like being hit by electricity shocks. Nothing I could do to calm it down. No wonder the word “chemistry” is used in the situation of “first sight”; one just cannot ignore the neuroscience of a human body.
You can plan on glimmer, never me before. I tried my best to plan on it, and got a half-glimmer with LO #5, very handsome, artistic, and intellectual but with a sad aura, which hit my sympathy spot and brought me to his bed on the first date.
“I meant that maybe what is attracting you is changing now that you know about limerence.”
Perhaps. I love glimmer, of course; but don’t want it to lead my view skewed into fantasy again, blinding me from seeing what is reality in any new relational dynamic.
“But at least you know they are available and have some kind of initial interest in you. Meeting available options is difficult as you get older.”
You know, really? I met a lot of f*..g* liars from the apps —from lying about their coupled status, wife/finance/gfs to their age and appearance…. and they would say whatever they thought I’d like to hear, matching my “quirks” in online conversations…. I heard that there are 30% hoax in dating apps.
I could not help get a sense that so many people considering dating or getting a pair-bonding mate an achievable TASK, something needs to be done/completed as quickly as possible, or by certain age, as if one can’t survive or thrive without it. As I’ve said many times before, any matters relating to another person(s) is 50% out of one’s control, one HAS TO leave it to Fate — other side is beyond anyone’s (sometimes including his own) control! No one has a choice on Fate, period!
Therefore, to hold a pessimistic view (Stoic) on romance might be healthy — preparing for not ever getting a satisfied mate, but open to all possibilities and make one’s best efforts! It’s my current mental default — I will probably die alone (99% of chance). If anything more than that happens, then it would be a bonus, or a positive Karma in my life.
Meanwhile, I’ll be engaged in things I’m interested or passionate to do, e.g. dialoguing and discussing with you and other interesting ghosts, tutoring good-looking Romeo, cute kids, and talented musical director, learning how to hit a piano musically….
I’m reviewing my daily Stoic mantra here:
********
Today I might feel disappointed, lonely, depressed, angry, empty, jealousy, anxious, fearful, meaningless, insecure and panic.They are due to my emotional flashbacks. They may come but WILL always pass.
I am dying everyday, and will die at any given moment.
I will fail at whatever I do, and I’ll still try them at my best.
I might end up being alone for the rest of my life, and die alone.
The people I deal with today will be narcissistic, meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, deceitful, jealous, and surly.
******
Snow,
“I think I’ll still miss “the offers” mainly from qualified “LO material”, not ordinary folks. ”
I’d be happy with any and all offers at this point. I’d probably not take most of them, but it’s still nice to get the offers.
“If you can’t comprehend the “safety” I’ve been talking about, then you’ve never experienced one type of trauma that I unfortunately did…. Sorry Sis, I can’t and won’t disclose here.”
Ah, ok. I’m sorry you had to go through that, if I’m interpreting you correctly. I had a friend who experienced that as well. She always looked for guys she really trusted. Makes perfect sense.
“I didn’t/don’t want to be the second choice, either. That’s why I tried to stay away from guys who only pursued women after their appearance and ignore who she’s as a whole person. But biologically they (and we) are driven to do so.”
I meant the guys my age who would prefer younger women. They should date those women and not chat me up as a secondary option.
But I think you can easily tell when someone is just after you physically. They make a lot of sexual comments, they aren’t asking questions and trying to get to know you, they’re pushing for physcial contact right away. Just cut those guys off.
“Once, an analysis is done, it becomes harder to emotionally, blindly follow Unconscious’ lead.”
And that’s good. It’s not as much fun but it’s healthier and in the long run will be better for you. That’s what I meant about learning about yourself. The beginning of limerence can be exquisite. But of course it’s bad in the long run and very painful. Like eating too much crappy food. Anything “healthy” is not as hedonistically luscious. And who wants to learn that lesson? 🙂
“I suggest you read Sammy’s original commentaries and Mila’s replies in this blog about Beaver’s book “the Second Sex”.”
I don’t have enough time left on this planet to read all of Sammy’s comments. 🙂
“Based on Crappy Childhood Faire, it’s wise not to stay in any FWB, unless you have other lovers or bf simultaneously.”
That’s funny. I always thought a woman could have casual sex successfully and not get attached to the person if she also had a long-term partner who really cared about her. In my FWB situation, he was an LO. I didn’t want anybody else.
“I almost never had concerns about my sexual appeal”
I didn’t have concerns about my sexual appeal, but I also didn’t think every man was into me. So if he didn’t make some kind of move pretty quickly, I thought he wasn’t interested or with someone else. And if I myself wasn’t trying to move things forward, I was probably ok with it. I thought of him as a friend, too.
“Yes. Certainly. With LO#7, no fingers were ever touched for 7 years, is that slow enough?”
Seven years!? I’d have given up. 🙂 I meant waitng a couple of months. But that’s after a couple of months of actual dating. Time spent together, getting to know each other, calls, texts, etc. You’ve discussed what you both want from the situation and are on the same page.
” 🤔 (4 years of which I was dealing with undiagnosed lymphoma and the related health issues)”
Yeah, at that point you probably needed a supportive friend. Not someone trying to have a PA.
” No wonder the word “chemistry” is used in the situation of “first sight”; one just cannot ignore the neuroscience of a human body.”
Chemistry is a powerful thing, but I have come to learn it doesn’t necessarily indicate it’s someone I should spend more time with. It’s just really strong attraction. Nothing more. I don’t need to upend my life chasing it.
“You can plan on glimmer”
I’m not sure what you mean by “plan.” I’ve never planned to glimmer or I would have planned to glimmer for better people and not such dodgy ones.
“Perhaps. I love glimmer, of course; but don’t want it to lead my view skewed into fantasy again, blinding me from seeing what is reality in any new relational dynamic.”
Exactly.
You know, really? I met a lot of f*..g* liars from the apps —from lying about their coupled status, wife/finance/gfs to their age and appearance…. and they would say whatever they thought I’d like to hear, matching my “quirks” in online conversations…. I heard that there are 30% hoax in dating apps.”
I can think of 3 friends who did the online dating. One met good guys through it; one did not and hated it; one seems to meet a lot of guys who start something (lots of communication, sometimes a date or two) but a relationship never really takes off.
“I could not help get a sense that so many people considering dating or getting a pair-bonding mate an achievable TASK, something needs to be done/completed as quickly as possible, or by certain age”
This I think is true. Some people get married because they look around at a certain age and see all of their peers are.
“Therefore, to hold a pessimistic view (Stoic) on romance might be healthy — preparing for not ever getting a satisfied mate, but open to all possibilities and make one’s best efforts! ”
That’s probably not a bad attitude, but I think romance is like anything in life — you have to make the effort. It’s not going to fall into your lap.
“Meanwhile, I’ll be engaged in things I’m interested or passionate to do, e.g. dialoguing and discussing with you and other interesting ghosts, tutoring good-looking Romeo, cute kids, and talented musical director, learning how to hit a piano musically….”
That doesn’t sound too bad. 🙂
Marcia,
“I’d be happy with any and all offers at this point. I’d probably not take most of them, but it’s still nice to get the offers.”
If I am not interested in or attracted enough by a guy, I don’t see why I care about his offer or not. I cared 0% about (sometimes even felt repulsed by) their “approval,” compliments, or “validation”, unless he was a LO!
“I meant the guys my age who would prefer younger women. They should date those women and not chat me up as a secondary option.”
I agree with you here! But many single guys seem to have big appetite to dangling with several women at the same time. With so many dating apps around, It’s rare to meet a single guy who only sees one woman. They “legitimately” dates tons simultaneously.
“But I think you can easily tell when someone is just after you physically. They make a lot of sexual comments, they aren’t asking questions and trying to get to know you, they’re pushing for physcial contact right away. Just cut those guys off.”
Trust me, I could spot them a mile away; I would not even go to one date with them, waste my time.
“The beginning of limerence can be exquisite. But of course it’s bad in the long run and very painful. Like eating too much crappy food. “
It still depends on what one wants to get out of a limerence. If limerent’s expectation is low, one would be hurt less. The stronger desire, the more painful in one’s mind. I’ve got some of my desired makeup parenting from this long-winded LE, and resisted the pair-bonding urge, so I came almost out of my limerence without much regret.
“Anything “healthy” is not as hedonistically luscious. And who wants to learn that lesson? “
One has to, whether like it or not, to learn such a lesson. My “harsh” childhood was a blessing in disguise, because I rarely desired (no knowledge of it) “hedonistically luscious” lifestyle; COO did not allow it.
“I don’t have enough time left on this planet to read all of Sammy’s comments.“
😳 Poor, poor Sammy! 😂
“I always thought a woman could have casual sex successfully and not get attached to the person if she also had a long-term partner who really cared about her. “
I still imagined a woman could, but I think what possibly prevents a woman (monogamous type) from free-spirited, amorous behaviors is that oxytocin— the idiot hormone tends to make women feeling bonded/attached to the guy, unless she changes men very frequently or is a polycule.
“In my FWB situation, he was an LO. I didn’t want anybody else.”
Yes, one can’t have FWB with LO, except when the LE is over with the said LO, like in my LE#5 — it hurt so much inside to have FWB with LO#5; but that pain completely disappeared and I enjoyed so much more of a better FWB with LO#5, during which LO #7 has been in the picture for a while. After the vague Glimmer, LO#7 completely “squeezed” LO#5 out of my mind in about 4 months.
“Seven years!? I’d have given up. “
I have been a very impractical person since young, independently focused a way too much on mental, emotional, and spiritual sides of matters.
“I meant waitng a couple of months. But that’s after a couple of months of actual dating. Time spent together, getting to know each other, calls, texts, etc. You’ve discussed what you both want from the situation and are on the same page.”
A couple of months? I could hardly keep a date for a couple of hours, if I didn’t feel a quarter of glimmer. I’d rather “date” my erotic literature alone at home than putting up with an unattractive guy…. Most attractive ones are already taken.
“Chemistry is a powerful thing, but I have come to learn it doesn’t necessarily indicate it’s someone I should spend more time with. It’s just really strong attraction. Nothing more. I don’t need to upend my life chasing it.”
I agree with you that a Glimmer may or may NOT lead one anywhere. But without it, one is simply not motivated to do anything with a guy. We both tried to cultivated “chemistry” with some compatible guys, but it did not work!
“I’m not sure what you mean by “plan.” I’ve never planned to glimmer or I would have planned to glimmer for better people and not such dodgy ones.”
I misunderstood your original sentence.
“This I think is true. Some people get married because they look around at a certain age and see all of their peers are.”
One of my oddities lies on that I rarely acted under any peer pressure, ever since my weekcare…. A lot of times, I actually rebelled against peer pressures; I instinctively just flew 🐦 a bit outside an edge of a flock. I did/do not know what my gut was made of (even at 5 or 6 yrs)??
“Therefore, to hold a pessimistic view (Stoic) on romance might be healthy — preparing for not ever getting a satisfied mate, but open to all possibilities and make one’s best efforts! ” “That’s probably not a bad attitude, but I think romance is like anything in life — you have to make the effort. It’s not going to fall into your lap.”
Yes, workable, solid, lasting (I hate short term of anything) romance takes both sides’ efforts with a sponge-like mind, an elastic heart, and a Stoic stomach. Stoics may hold a “pessimistic view” in life, but they are NOT passive at all in making their own life less affected by eternal, uncontrollable forces and more fulfilling with their individualistic purposes that most likely do not involve hurting others. Of course, how to define a “hurt” is another matter….
Tutored Romeo this evening, gosh, he’s such a fast learner! I joked, “you can study so well on your own, what do you need me for?” He just sweetly smiled. Now I am pretty much sure that he has a bf/gf.
I have the demo lesson tomorrow morning in that tough HS I zoom- interviewed; I intend to treat the tough classroom as a “Hamlet’s stage” — to say this or not to say that… 😄
Errors: it should be: a Stoic mind, an elastic heart, and a sponge-like stomach.
Snow,
“I have the demo lesson tomorrow morning in that tough HS I zoom- interviewed; I intend to treat the tough classroom as a “Hamlet’s stage” — to say this or not to say that… 😄”
I’ll write more later in response to the rest of your post, but good luck tomorrow!!
Hi Snow, this is a long thread, didn’t know where to type my sms.
Anyway, just wanted to wish you good luck with your demo- lesson exam today. Hope you handled it perfectly Keep us posted.
A good day to you. Hugs
Nisor, Marcia,
Thank you for your sincere wishes for today’s interview by over 25 HS students and 4 or 5 teachers! My legs and voice will shake usually 3 minutes before getting on the stage, but once I open my shy mouth, it should be okay. I’m excitable by my own voice …🎤
Slept less than 4 hours, I had a terrible nightmare — a real doomsday approached, with two rounds of sweeping fires and then tsunami scorching every inch of the earth… But I, and I think a few of you here, survived by hiding behind some rocks and gigantic shells… and then some boats…. Oh well, that’s my unconscious….👻
Snow,
“If I am not interested in or attracted enough by a guy, I don’t see why I care about his offer or not. ”
Hey … a fan is a fan. Just enjoy the compliment. 🙂
I agree with you here! But many single guys seem to have big appetite to dangling with several women at the same time.”
I wasn’t talking about dangling a bunch of women. I meant that if he prefers younger women but is putting women his own age in the second options category to date only if the younger ones aren’t interested … I would kindly ask him to remove me from the options list. 🙂
Dangling a bunch of women is a separate issue. I can’t really take issue with that unless he’s said we are exclusive and in a relationship.
“It still depends on what one wants to get out of a limerence.”
For me, it was some kind sexual/romantic/emotional soul merging. 🙂 Yes, I can hear myself. 🙂
” The stronger desire, the more painful in one’s mind. I’ve got some of my desired makeup parenting from this long-winded LE, and resisted the pair-bonding urge, so I came almost out of my limerence without much regret.”
I’m sorry. I keep forgetting what you wanted out of your LE. You may be one of the few posters on here who wanted a more parental relationship from their LOs. Of course, the men I become limerent for were directly related to the relationship with my parents. One cannot separate limerence from one’s upbringing (in most cases).
” I rarely desired (no knowledge of it) “hedonistically luscious” lifestyle; COO did not allow it.”
I meant on a very basic level. Like eating chocolate all day long, despite how delicious it is, is not a healthy choice.
“the idiot hormone tends to make women feeling bonded/attached to the guy, unless she changes men very frequently”
I agree. The only way I didn’t attach is if it was just for a night or two (and not an LO) or if I didn’t really like the guy or wasn’t attracted to him. And then … why bother?
“After the vague Glimmer, LO#7 completely “squeezed” LO#5 out of my mind in about 4 months.”
I’ve never had that happen. Had an LO or a former LO still in my life when I met another LO. I would meet a new LO when the former LO was completely out of my life. And I was usually over the previous LO. Only once did I experience transference from one LO to another LO.
“A couple of months? I could hardly keep a date for a couple of hours, if I didn’t feel a quarter of glimmer. ”
You’d have to be interested in the person.
“But without it, one is simply not motivated to do anything with a guy. We both tried to cultivated “chemistry” with some compatible guys, but it did not work!”
I think you have to have SOME chemistry. I keep writing that. I just don’t think that it has to be a blazing inferno to start out with. And it might be better if it’s not. You can actually see the person more clearly. It’s a theory. I haven’t tried it out yet. 😉 But the people I glimmer for are bad choices.
“One of my oddities lies on that I rarely acted under any peer pressure, ever since my weekcare…. A lot of times, I actually rebelled against peer pressures; I instinctively just flew 🐦 a bit outside an edge of a flock. I did/do not know what my gut was made of (even at 5 or 6 yrs)??”
I was the same way. I’ve always wanted to do my own thing and join in with the group only when I chose to. I still do, but they won’t let you do that at work! 🙁
“Yes, workable, solid, lasting (I hate short term of anything) romance takes both sides’ efforts”
I meant that it’s unlikely the guy will just fall into your lap and show up at your door, particularly the older you get. It’s harder to meet people organically. You have to get out and join things, be social, etc., if you don’t do the online stuff.
” Now I am pretty much sure that he has a bf/gf.”
NOOOO! How do you know? Did you check the other bathroom cabinent? 🙂
“Thank you for your sincere wishes for today’s interview by over 25 HS students and 4 or 5 teachers! My legs and voice will shake usually 3 minutes before getting on the stage, but once I open my shy mouth, it should be okay. I’m excitable by my own voice …🎤”
Goodness! That sounds challenging! How did it go?
@Marcia.
“I don’t have enough time left on this planet to read all of Sammy’s comments. 🙂”
That’s completely understandable, Marcia. Anyone who has the time to read all my comments, let alone has time to decipher their meaning, has my deepest … commiserations. 😊
You know, you’re right – something life really is too short!! But there’s no love lost. I still think you’re a cool lady. 😜
Allie I,
“That is an interesting way of looking at it Snow i.e. using the belief that reality will never measure up to the fantasy as that is oftentimes true.. such good anti-limerence fodder.”
Yes. Even if a belief might have 20-30% of chance to be realized, just BELIEVE and mentally accept that reality will only measure your belief/expectation up to 1% — never say never! It’s anti-optimistic/positive thinkings and obsessive desires.
“I have two disappointing limerent consummations: one was amongst the worst sex of my life as no real connection; the second was the best sex of my life but was followed by a shallow relationship that extinguished our mutual desire quickly.”
I have been there, too. As I mentioned before all my best SEs were NOT during my limerence with either LO or SO, as if my tensed up nerves could not enjoy it. Limerent consummation with LO#5 was most frustrating one when I had a certain amount of attachment to him during LE #5. Once it was over, our FWB got 10 times better. Sex with LO#6 was the 2nd best (#1 from a Parisian lover, not LO), but he was a hardcore Narc/playboy, I never glimmered at him (he picked me up from a cafe), and he belittled me covertly and overtly. He was the guy whose “ugly”, arrogant/insecure face my drunk fish had punched!
“The task again: keep a desire alive, without getting the desired!”
“Where is the fun in that? 🙂
For me the latter is a pre-requisite for the former. I have to believe rationally that, without barriers, something mutual and real could happen and that it would be good on all fronts – intellectually, emotionally, physically.”
Yes, the latter is a pre-requisite, it’s a catalyst. Once the desire is set in and aroused, itself becomes a stimulant for the brain. 🫠 As DrL points out, LO becomes merely a bystander, the ‘addicted” mind was in limerence with its own desire — so seductive, creative and exhilarating! 💃🏻 The otherwise quiet mind suddenly gets an over powerful emotional/mental/pair-bonding goal (compared with the time when one feels depressed — nothing in the world matters or has a color).
Of course, the belief “that, without barriers, something mutual and real could happen and that it would be good on all fronts – intellectually, emotionally, physically” had to be sensed and believed, even if one’s logical mind could clearly see that in reality such a belief/fantasy could not be realized, like in my only “true” LE #7.
Logically I knew no hope in this LE from the Day 1 (not even a PA), but as aforementioned, the mind still desired and held the belief you have stated. Then, each time while interacting with LO in the early LE, all my neurons were aroused uncontrollably, the mental state was altered, and limerence mind craved for the desire most, more than the desired.
Again, once that desire was “fulfilled” to a certain degree, as in my previous 6 LEs, my mind plunged into boredom or melancholy. So to keep a desire alive but not totally consumed by it is most important.
Not sure if I am making myself clear here. 🧐
Snow,
“As I mentioned before all my best SEs were NOT during my limerence with either LO or SO, as if my tensed up nerves could not enjoy it.”
I’m the opposite. My best SEs were with LOs. I was really riled, really keyed up. The room was practicaly spinning! And if, on top of all that, I liked what they did physically … that put it over the edge to really hot.
You guys are making me hope LO just wants to keep it to a church flirtation. 😉 It’s fun to chase/be chased but actually catching–The other day while doing laundry, I couldn’t help thinking, “LO wouldn’t be so enticing if I had to wash his underwear.” lol
Serial,
“LO wouldn’t be so enticing if I had to wash his underwear.” lol
Uh … you went off the deep end. I did NOT wash their drawers. Consummation. Not domestication. 🙂
“There must be something inaccessible in what we love, something to pursue; we love only what we do not possess…” — Proust
“Desire makes everything blossom; possession makes everything wither and fade.” — Proust
I lived through these two quotes even before I ever heard of who on earth Proust is!
I thought that I would never get bored with great SE, wrong! Without EA and one’s mind accompanying it, it all became technical eventually. I agree that one’s brain is the sexist organ on human!
When during LEs, the desire for that EA (missed, idealized parental care) was so strong, that it overrode even the pair-ponding instinct/subconscious desire. How pathetic I was‼️
Snow,
“Desire makes everything blossom; possession makes everything wither and fade.” — Proust
Yeah, but from the moment between first consummation and withering … it can be a hell of ride. 🙂 Of course, it can’t last forever. The minute the first consummation starts … the clock is ticking. Ride the tiger while you can. 🙂
Serial Limerent,
I found that LO’s sink piled up with dirty dishes made my stomach churning… 😌
Marcia,
“Of course, it can’t last forever. The minute the first consummation starts … the clock is ticking. Ride the tiger while you can. 🙂”
The issue was that when I was in the height of LE, the tigress was put to temporary sleep by that idiot limerent brain (chasing a parental LO); when LE was absent, she could roar and ride superbly… 🐯.
Snow,
“The issue was that when I was in the height of LE, the tigress was put to temporary sleep by that idiot limerent brain (chasing a parental LO); when LE was absent, she could roar and ride superbly… 🐯.”
Ah. I’m the opposite. Without an LE, the tigress is pretty tame. Still there, but much tamer. And she’d rather watch her crime shows. 🙂
@Marcia:
“Uh … you went off the deep end. I did NOT wash their drawers. Consummation. Not domestication. 🙂”
I’ve been married close to 30 years at this point. Laundry is what my mind jumps to. 😉
“That doesn’t bother me. I think limerence, at least for me, pushed me to pursue more than I might have otherwise. Normal rules didn’t apply! 🙂 The pursuer role flipped and shifted and over time — he did a lot of push/pull–but I wasn’t always sitting there passively waiting for him.”
@Marcia.
That’s very interesting. And it kind of ties in with Tennov’s idea that limerence is this instinctual drive that exists outside the constraints of culture. I.e. the normal rules of engagement don’t apply, as you say. 🙂
Sammy,
“And it kind of ties in with Tennov’s idea that limerence is this instinctual drive that exists outside the constraints of culture.”
And that’s why limerence is so seductive. It exists outside of everything. It almost feels dangerous. It’s not like bringing home the guy you know your parents will like. 🙂
“So, in effect, in Tennov’s view, the limerent is always playing what Beaver would consider a masculine role and the LO is always playing what Beaver would consider a feminine role” @Sammy.
An instant reaction from this limerent: that is ME 🦜! Remember, in order to fall into huge crush/limerence, I ALWAYS (had to) glimmered at LO FIRST, not the other way around? and most of my LOs had feminine aura…? Then, this Tomboy did coy “chasing”/“seducing” under a cultural condition — LO had to take a lead to strike the ball…
Then, once I got a LO, my limerence would fade, I got “bored” although remaining absolutely faithful in behaviors but unable in mind (had 2 mild LEs with the 3rd coming during the marriage). Meanwhile, I never had a slight wish to boss/own anyone (not even competition), boys/men or girls/women, let along to be treated like a Queen. Perhaps only “addicted” to romanticism, adventure of chasing “impossibles”❓(ah, those classical Western European literature! 📕)
But I can’t say whether this is a biological instinct or an acquired, cultural “nature”.
@Snow.
I’m not sure if follow your comment, sorry.
Are you saying you believe all your LEs were mutual LEs, and the guy pursued you first? Or are you saying you want to grab a (random?) guy’s attention, and then leave the guy to do all the chasing?
If you think every male admirer you’ve ever had has been limerent for you, then a creature of rare charm and charisma you must be!! Marie Antoinette must be turning in her grave from sheer jealousy. Cleopatra too. Catherine the Great. If only the legendary Helen of Troy were so lucky… 😜
True limerence is rare, Snow. And it’s even rarer when it’s reciprocal. That’s why people make such a song and dance about it, and think it’s worth leaving good spouses for, etc. Don’t you ever read the LwL comment section? It doesn’t happen every other Thursday night at Bingo.
I’d like to know how can you tell the difference between “glimmer-level interest” and “non-glimmer-level interest”? How do you know these guys liked you in a limerent way and not in a more ordinary, everyday, non-ecstatic way?
I was never limerent for my younger sister. My younger sister and I have an affectionate bond. I think, in affectionate bonds between persons of the opposite sex, one isn’t worried about making a bad impression. One stays true to oneself. One gives oneself permission to be silly. I told you about my sister because I was trying to explain what a non-limerent bond is like.
I guess, in attachments not involving limerence, I’m bossy in a playful way. Also, I can tell people off when I feel tired or annoyed. You and I have an affectionate bond online i.e. I let you know when I feel irritated with you- which is most of the time, quite frankly. But just because I find you irritating, that doesn’t mean I’m going to drop you as a friend.
Most of my friends are irritating i.e. they’re human beings with faults. A woman in true limerence with a man would probably struggle to forgive the man if the man dared to find serious fault with her character/personality. Think of Lizzie’s reaction to Darcy in “Pride and Prejudice”. (She does forgive him, fortunately, but Lizzie is a woman of abnormally strong intestinal fortitude. Must be all that walking she does). 😆
In an affectionate bond, neither party has to be perfect. Rejection is not really something either party fears. People can be a lot more authentic, and say what they really think and feel. There’s a bit of a game going on, plenty of teasing, but it’s not a limerent game. Just a generic social game.
What was your personality like as a little girl? That probably was/is your true personality. Were you bossy? Were you lost in dreamland? Were you social? Were you reserved? Who do you feel you are when an LO isn’t in the picture? What traits do you feel are naturally, organically yours?
I don’t really think I’m the Queen of the Universe. That was a character I played in order to entertain (and terrify) my younger sister. She was never terrified. About 80-90% of the time she was entertained. She kept coming back for more, anyway. Big brothers are such wonderful creatures, no? The way we’re willing to humiliate ourselves for the cheapest of cheap laughs! 🙂
@Sammy,
“I’m not sure if follow your comment, sorry.”
Thank you for asking. Sometimes, I thought my mind and telling of it were clear, but then through others’ inquires, I see some vagueness or confusions of my thoughts or the expression of them.
“Are you saying you believe all your LEs were mutual LEs, and the guy pursued you first?”
No. I never said they were mutual LEs, but my LE for a LO (not LO #7) was reciprocated either with EA (their expressed emotions) or PA (physical intimacy). How could I ever know their true mind, even if they tried to convince me whatever they wanted me to believe. On their side, there might be just crush, lust, or “love”, but as we all know, to qualify for limerence requires a lot internal “activities” in one’s head; and introverted LO would not reveal.
“Or are you saying you want to grab a (random?) guy’s attention, and then leave the guy to do all the chasing?”
Oh, my LOs were mostly “random”, dropped in front of me from “nowhere”. Usually, they were either studying or working in a same vicinity or befriending with my friends. I haven’t glimmered at any total stranger in the street; but were picked or offered a date by some brave male-strangers in public all over places.
A big glimmer did not occur that easily with me while small crushes occurred more from time to time Yes, after an initial glimmer, I usually passively waited for a while to see what it was while losing appetite and sleep for days. Then by chance/synchronicity, a circumstance ALWAYS brought me further into their paths. My LE stared fairly soon with my habitual imagination, then I tried to get their attention and wait for them “to do all the chasing”. In COO, females are severely frowned if taking the amorous strike — considered as a slut!
“If you think every male admirer you’ve ever had has been limerent for you, then a creature of rare charm and charisma you must be!!
Not in my next life, I’d think that “every male admirer I had has been limerent” for me! Limerence is a HUGE deal, non-limerants could not even get into it even if they want to! In my next life, my male admirer probably would have admired or lusted for me again, even if they had reincarnated into horses or dogs.
Unsatisfied with my flatter nose, uneven lips, I don’t know what charm or charisma I had in those lusty males’ eyes (once I did catch clearly that LO’s gaze went into and “lost” inside my eyes for a couple of seconds and came back after I blinked my eyes), but I seemed to have some mysterious magnetic/energetic field that have drawn attention from unwanted lusty looks and wanted innocent eyes of small kids, dogs, horses, and deers. Again, when growing up, I seriously feared public attention, because it only brought me “troubles”, speakable and unspeakable….
“Marie Antoinette must be turning in her grave from sheer jealousy. Cleopatra too. Catherine the Great. If only the legendary Helen of Troy were so lucky… “
Let me ask you a question here: If Marie Antonette, Cleopatra, Catherine the Great were born or lived in an ordinary family, what would happen to them and their life? Without fame, power, and wealthy, would their beauty ever be sung so loudly through literature, or would they end up “anonymously” in a king’s/emperor’s conbubine palace, or would they serve as an independent courtesan living in a lavish house and die miserably alone? If I were born in their shoes, would I have ever suffered from those traumas I experienced during childhood and youth?
I was from an ordinary intellectual family with a full Narc Mom, a proud, half showoff Dad, without any siblings. Besides with Granny from 2.5-4 then 7.5-8, I was left all the time in a daycare and weekcare, suffered several kinds of familial and cultural traumas and unfathomable loneliness, lived in constant anxiety and fear at home (Mom’s temper 🤬), and even lost some crucial memories…. And you are comparing me with the three most well-known Queens in the West? Sammy, you really know how to flatter a fearful inner 👧 from the East! 🙃
However, when I got on dating apps after divorce, I was once compared with Helen of Troy (I kept that gloating note for a little while and then trashed it), I didn’t accept the guy’s invite for a date — the flatter too exaggerating to stomach! I also got another date “offer” by a newly separated guy with(?) 27-room house in suburb and the entire 14th floor of the Empire State Building; I told him to cool down for a while before dating again. The truth was/is I’d never go out with rich, showing off men, unless he is undetected/disguised, like the handsome millionaire I paid that pricy dinner on our 3rd date.
“True limerence is rare, Snow. And it’s even rarer when it’s reciprocal. “
I totally agree with you here. I said only my last LE could be considered as a true LE, in terms of its length, barrier, and intensity of my suffering (indirectly led to lymphoma). And it still has not 100% ended on my side. I suspected something did happen in LO’s head once; but as he confessed, he rarely shared his inside with anyone else besides his SO. But his pet LO’s appearance later proves everything he said was either false or turned upside down by their PA or LE.
Other LEs In the past:
LO#1: told me a decade later that he was never happy after I left, although he got a wife and 10 yrs son.
LO#2: did not leave his girlfriend and knelled down (a huge deal in COO) to beg me not to pull out…. LE #2 made me to take an oath to myself not ever to deal (having PA) with a coupled guy.
LO# 3 : a third-removed cousin, a Narc living in a long distance, my protective father found it out and firmly kicked him away.
LO# 4: a self-claimed Aspie, non-limerent, whom I married and lost my love/LE quickly after discovering his four flings before the marriage.
LO# 5: from an app without glimmer, we are incompatible but had relapses for FWB; nowadays barely talk. He helps with my realistic, logistic matters if needed.
LO #6: no glimmer, a Narc (almost impeccable in bedroom), whose face my drunken fist punched. He’s “exiled” to an Asian Island for unknown reasons.
LO#7: only married LO, an insecure Sensor/liar, who pulled-n-pushed and will vanish from my sight in May. No PA or EA, mostly a surrogate-parental LE on my side.
There are other small “LOs”, whose existence did not make a big “dent” in my life.
“Don’t you ever read the LwL comment section? It doesn’t happen every other Thursday night at Bingo.”
Which LwL comment section? This blog or another one? I could not possibly catch up with all old blogs and their comments, they probably amount to four or five “war and peace”. Also, many LE stories and comments are more or similar; after reading a while, one gets tired.
I’d like to know how can you tell the difference between “glimmer-level interest” and “non-glimmer-level interest”? How do you know these guys liked you in a limerent way and not in a more ordinary, everyday, non-ecstatic way?”
I still can’t clearly tell the difference, except when they confessed to me much later. When interacting with me, some got tongue tied, face blushed, some avoided eye contact; some eyes got lost either inside my eyes or gods knows where; some throats swallowed back whatever they intended to say…. Most of them seemed to be tensed up, physically uncomfortable… the LOs who had PA with me most of the time just wanted to stay in bed, without really talking (not chitchatting) or listening to me, like with a good friend. 1 or 2 non-LO lovers actually seriously discussed topics with me, which was inspiring and fun! With my cptsd, I (sub)consciously desired mostly to be treated as an equal PERSON, not a SexO; and I have an appetite of Tardis….
”I think, in affectionate bonds between persons of the opposite sex, one isn’t worried about making a bad impression. One stays true to oneself. One gives oneself permission to be silly. I told you about my sister because I was trying to explain what a non-limerent bond is like.”
That’s what I’ve imaged what an ideal brother or a true, “bosom” friend would be! Since 4 or 5, I’ve searched for these bosom friends, in vain. I’d have given everything I had for such a relaxed, stablebond, but most guys came to me with an insecure and wanton heart, not an insightful or maturing mind and endearing and encompassing personality.
“I guess, in attachments not involving limerence, I’m bossy in a playful way. Also, I can tell people off when I feel tired or annoyed. “
I guess by compassion, I’m still a people-pleaser, I can’t act out my annoyance at others in reality, I don’t have a sibling or a dog (Friday died of a heart disease in 2016) to boss around. Maybe it’s also due to my dilettante buddhistic and Stoic practice. I only got sulky, mad, or deeply blue by myself.
“You and I have an affectionate bond online i.e. I let you know when I feel irritated with you- which is most of the time, quite frankly. “But just because I find you irritating, that doesn’t mean I’m going to drop you as a friend.”
This is really touching! I thought we had some kind of fraternal kind of bond — a brother to “brother”, a ‘sister” to sister. 😄 But you periodically threw those insulting verbal stones at me “out of blue”…. Was it due to an Aspie meltdown or to my irritating thoughts? Why were you so irritated with me? 😳 I’m just an LwL ghost, having so little to do with your reality, how could a shapeless, faceless ghost or her trains of random, stirred up thoughts could possibly irritate you “most of the time ?”❓🤔 Was it my ESL limitation?
For an ongoing cptsd sufferer, the worst daymare/nightmare is the sense of being “abandoned” or of perceived, imminent abandonment. I often ran away, mentally and emotionally — a Stoic way, before someone had taken steps to distance me or even before they had such a thought. It’s better for me to do “abandoning” first, although consequences would be exactly the same. That’s a typical, pathetic cptsd reactions towards ALL relational dynamics, not just limerence.
Needless to say, with LO’s evasive mind and push-n-pull behaviors, limerence is the worst trauma trigger to heighten such an anxiety and fear; it also opens up old wounds for better or worse. A weak, LE-ignorant mind could be damaged further by LEs; a curious, strong mind could heal its old wounds through an insightful LE. I’m trying the latter.
After all the “stone throwing” (Nisor’s words), you still consider me as a faceless friend ❓🤔 That’s really unexpected and touching — a bonus of my trivial life 🎁⁉️ Now, I feel more internally settled (although still a bit confused), despite so much uncertainty is going on in my reality. Believe me, I value such a settling sense more than most ghosts here could ever imagine….
“Most of my friends are irritating i.e. they’re human beings with faults. “
Do you have faults that are irritating to your friends? If you know it’s natural to have human faults, why get irritated? Why not just smile at them with a little bit of Buddhistic compassion?
“A woman in true limerence with a man would probably struggle to forgive the man if the man dared to find serious fault with her character/personality. “
A woman/man with cptsd struggles to achieve “perfection” in anything s/he gets hands on, and can’t forgive herself/himself for not having achieved their aimed goals (which is always impossible). They constantly suspect that others have found or are finding serious faults with her/his “performances” or her/his character/personality. Cptsd (OCD, ADHD, Abandonment fear, panic attacks, etc) covers much larger scope than limerence alone, it’s much harder to battle with.
“In an affectionate bond, neither party has to be perfect. Rejection is not really something either party fears. People can be a lot more authentic, and say what they really think and feel. There’s a bit of a game going on, plenty of teasing, but it’s not a limerent game. Just a generic social game.”
That’s what I call a true, substantial friendship, which I tried so hard to get in all my relationships/friendships, especially LEs: a reason I opened up myself so early or teased too soon, or over shared. I wanted LO to see and treat me as a full-colored person, not some kind of exotic, eccentric object/creature. But their aim did not or could not sync with mine.
“What was your personality like as a little girl? That probably was/is your true personality. Were you bossy? Were you lost in dreamland? Were you social? Were you reserved? Who do you feel you are when an LO isn’t in the picture? What traits do you feel are naturally, organically yours?”
Based on Granny and some grownup from my childhood, I was chatty with a nickname “Chatty+first name” (DrL knows it now!🫣 ), very generous/giving/sharing, energetic, curious, “daredevil”, stubborn, eager and loyal in socializing (relying on friends for playmates)… In my teen years, I became reserved, solitary mostly, annoyingly noticed everywhere I went (unless I wore a mask or a facial scarf)… hiding in my literature books, daydreaming non-stop…
Without LO in picture, I was mostly melancholy, quiet/shy, and still had cptsd. However, l remained inquisitive, sincere, easy-going with most matters except cptsd triggers, accepting (or indifferent?), and compassionate — friends and acquaintances often took me as their confidant (I never judged any deeds or mistakes as “bizarre” or “immoral”) although I could not do the same with them. My emotional life, especially LEs felt too intense or “out of space” to share with any “normal” human beings…. LwL is the first and only exception.
We limerents ghosts cannot jump out of the screen, right? ☺️
“Many men talk of feeling possessed, powerless, wanting the LO to free them of their emotional torment.”
I still feel that way sometimes. I had no overcoming carnal feelings for her. As much as Nietzche resonates with me in almost everything I don’t agree with him here. I felt like she had me on a leash. And I couldn’t break free. Please grant my heart mercy.
Adam,
As a dilettante “bookworm”, I often fancied to reduce such stressed men, that’s how masculine I have been.
Whenever I put my inner child “to bed”, I wished that my LO wanted my mind and heart as his equal, although I viewed/treated him as a surrogate parent, how paradoxical is it?
I clearly knew there were at least two parts residing inside me simultaneously.
Hi Adam ,
When free, watch this if you want,
Tom Fletcher/part 20 Emotional Disregulation
He has many videos on 60 characteristics of complex trauma. Trauma with the small t, the ones not many people pay attention to…I just saw this one for the first time I think is very interesting.
Have a beautiful blessed Sunday.
I went on to a post on this site on Sunday (17th) and responded to someone’s comment. I’ve looked but I don’t remember what post it was and can remember the person I replied to. Though I really liked her comment and wanted to add my comment.
To all those who are caught in long term limerence limbo, all I can say is ‘same’.
We’re not mad, we’re not weak.
Perhaps we had some wound and somebody came into out lives, even for a short period and well, they’ve never really left our minds. Even if nothing really happened. Me and the LO had a kind of emotional relationship.
But it was a long time ago and we were both young.
She definitely treated me as an object, which I simply wasn’t able to properly comprehend at the time. I’ve been able to piece a few things together over the years. And I think she had a narcissist father.
I myself have a sibling with NPD. I’ve had virtually no contact with him for a long time. Recently I’ve had to speak on the phone to him several times. And it is not pleasant. I will always have to be on my guard with him. Because they are master manipulators and really have no empathy. Though they can fake it. And everything is about aggrandizing their selves.
But back to my limerence. NC is probably (definitely) the way to go and the best way to go forward with life.
Though up to now it hasn’t worked in erasing LO from my mind. She lingers on in some form. With some of the other comments I’ve read on this site, there are people who’ve also had long term and/or recurring limerent episodes.
Some people just make such an impression on us and we simply can’t forget them.
Hey Grego. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. My LE is over 2 years long, so you can say that I am also in long term limerence limbo. You are right in saying that NC is the best option. With NC, LO may still be in you mind, but the thoughts are much more manageable, at-least for me. However, NC is not happening for me, and every time I see LO, the limerence flares up again. So, its sort of like this flaring up points, with periods of feeling better in between. As of now, the plan is to just weather this out, hoping things improve, as time goes on.
An interesting post, Grego, and I think the reality of your story will help those who sometimes feel stuck in limbo.
I still think NC is the way to go, although even if you don’t really have a choice, but it can be a painfully slow process. Limerence has brought me to my knees after four years of it.
The thoughts linger, given the slightest chance, and they seem to come along in waves. The science of NC, and trying to turn away from the thoughts, must mean that they will fade eventually.
Sorry, my second paragraph is not clear. I meant four years of limerence. I have only fully embraced every aspect of No Contact for ten weeks.
“Some people just make such an impression on us and we simply can’t forget them.”
Grego
I agree. And after all she put me through (well I put myself through) it’s true that I probably won’t ever forget her. But no one in my life have I had to regulate remembering them like with linerence. All the other people in my life that have impacted me in one way or another I can remember fondly. I don’t have to think “opps I shouldn’t be thinking about this person” like I do her.
These people that I like to remember I remember with a smile. Sure I remember her with a smile until I feel the pain of all the reasons that I shouldn’t think of her with a smile. It is a maddening course of mind. The pain comes when I remember I did this to myself. Not her. I should be able to remember her like any other former female co-worker I’ve had that I enjoyed working with. But I can’t. So I have to work hard to keep that time in my life, in the “time out” zone in my brain.
“Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. Sometimes the person you really need, is the one you didn’t think you wanted.”
“Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. Sometimes the person you really need, is the one you didn’t think you wanted.”
Some luck lies in not getting what you thought you wanted, but getting what you have. Which once you have it, you may be smart enough to see, is what you would have wanted, had you known.
@Grego,
I agree with you completely about the impression that some people leave on us. LO is definitely one of a kind in my world. She has set the bar high and I don’t believe I’m ever going to find anyone that can go above it. It’s just a fact. She is amazing and forever will be.. 🥰
HI MJ, Adam, Nisor, Frederico, ABCD, Imho and others,
You’ve got a nice little community here and I love to read the articles and especially the comments too. This is just some cobbled together thoughts and fragments, cause I’m at work and have to toggle between screens.
Thank you all for your lovely comments and support. Because I understand the heartaches, frustrations and sometimes loneliness of the limerent heart.
But for me I have to be careful I’m not ‘raking the coals’ i.e. ‘reinjuring’ myself over what happened many years ago.
I wonder how many people on this site, may be in a marriage or relationship that is no longer intimate. They live with someone they care about deeply. But may no longer be attracted to physically. OK, well, I’ve just described by own situation. It is a perfect environment for Limerence. And I think Dr L hit the nail on the head when he described the limerent situation as being addicted to another person. Or even the image of another person.
And if the LO is narcissistic, then you’re addicted to someone who is going to hurt you or punish you in some way. Having that insight is crucial to breaking free.
MJ your situation seems similar to mine. And for a long time I was happy to bask in the glow of LO’s beauty or aura. But now all I’m left with is her haughty and arrogant personality. Sure has taken away any warm inner glow I may have had for her.
I gave her too much and she gave me virtually nothing! (sob)
“Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. Sometimes the person you really need, is the one you didn’t think you wanted.”
I really like that Adam and often turns out to be true. But the limerent part of me also thinks “The heart wants what the heart wants”. Yes, they’re not good for me, they’ve got all these flaws. But I want that want that person real bad!
“My limerence is also for a long time ago bf when we’re both single. We had an exclusive three year beautiful relationship.”
Nisor, at least you had a relationship with your LO! I’m envious really. I wished something had happened with the LO at that time. Though it’s well in the past now.
“I walked out of the relationship and now I only feel compassion for that “young girl “ ( me) that didn’t know how to resolve a small issue.”
You survived it and moved on. I hope you can take from that situation what was good and leave the rest. Or maybe we have to take the bad with the good; they’re intrinsically linked.
I was speaking to a friend of mine a few weeks ago. And he said; maybe if you saw her now you would see how’s she’s aged and she wouldn’t look like she did and the attraction would have gone. But I think with the addiction thing, the glimmer would kick in and I’d still be attracted to her. Against my better judgement, I’d still want her.
Hi Grego,
The limerence for bf/Lo has awakened a desire to love and live and review my true feelings and my true self. The feelings, I know what the heart wants!!! I wish I can see LO, one last time, just to see his vulnerable eyes , if they have the same deep gaze I used to know. His sweet, low tone voice is the same one that captivated me then, his calm, cool and collected demeanor is still the same. He was good looking, tall and assertive, but it was his kindness and soft way of being that attracted me the most. He also had a strong temper to match his kindness which is rare in a man. So I won’t mind seeing him hunchback or wrinkled… When I first got his telephone number and address, I thought of taking a plane and go meet him!!! But the little executive brain I had left in me resisted the idea. I craved so much to see LO! He’s a continent away. Talking of craziness!!!I still can’t believe this is happening to me!!! I still think of ways to meet him one last time, almost impossible for it to happen…
Can’t get him off my mind, living with memories…
Strength and courage to you.
“MJ your situation seems similar to mine. And for a long time I was happy to bask in the glow of LO’s beauty or aura. But now all I’m left with is her haughty and arrogant personality. Sure has taken away any warm inner glow I may have had for her.
I gave her too much and she gave me virtually nothing!”
(sob)
@Grego
Before LO left, I could tell I was getting under her skin. Her body language gave it away. A few times seeing me approach and passing her in the corridor at work, she literally would turn her head and look out into the warehouse, to more or less shut down my effort. In a way, I admired her for that instead of reaching for her phone to look busy. To me, that felt like she never wanted to come off as a b!+@#. I never considered her as such. Yet it did hurt she didn’t want me to talking to her. She never let up on the eye contact from the office though. Even after that. I found it so appealing and yet odd. Like such a mixed signal. Many on this site commented she was in fear of me and making sure I was staying in my lane. Which was why she behaved that way. I may never know. If I did, I’d at least like to apologize. Still would like that chance. I don’t really consider her a Prude for it. If anything I wish I could tell how emotionally f%$#@d up she made me for so long but that wouldn’t solve anything either. So I just leave it in the limbo state and wait for whenever that time may come. If it does ever.
“I was speaking to a friend of mine a few weeks ago. And he said; maybe if you saw her now you would see how’s she’s aged and she wouldn’t look like she did and the attraction would have gone. But I think with the addiction thing, the glimmer would kick in and I’d still be attracted to her. Against my better judgement, I’d still want her.”
About 3 years ago, I looked up an old gf from my early 20s that I dated from like the early 90s. At the time I was craaaazeeee in love with her. Maybe the only other closest thing to limerence I ever experienced, yet it really wasn’t when I look back at it now.
Anyway, she had a recent pic of herself she had posted on a website she had created and I gotta say I wasn’t impressed. She didn’t let herself go to hell or anything. She just aged very-average-like into middle age, and she looked extremely common. Nothing like the gorgeous 19 yo she was when I kissed her.
So yes maybe time and age can change perspective. It did for me because I saw that pic and couldn’t even recall why I liked her. Except for maybe the fact she was really sweet and nice. But that all went away quick because we had a slight disagreement back then and she turned into a stone cold b!+@#. 🥶
Dissolving any love I had for her.
Not saying this is what might happen in your case. She might still be as beautiful as you remember her. I always think like my LO won’t ever be allowed to age either. She will, by magic, always be the glimmery, shimmery beautiful 29 year old she is today.
Limerence altered state of mind. God help me.. 😣
Hi Grego
“Some people just make such an impression on us and we simply can’t forget them”
How right you’re! I cannot forget; I’ve tried but to no avail. He had such a charisma! He bewitched me, feel he cast a spell on me… and as you say we’re caught in long term Limerence limbo. My limerence is also for a long time ago bf when we’re both single. We had an exclusive three year beautiful relationship. I walked out of the relationship and now I only feel compassion for that “young girl “ ( me) that didn’t know how to resolve a small issue. All there’s left is a deep sorrow which ‘brings me to my knees’ like Frederico says in his post below.
How debilitating limerence can be at times when my thoughts are caught up in the memories!
Strength to you and also to Frederico.
Song of the day:
“I CAN’T STOP LOVING YOU”. Ray Charles sings.
Yes,” I can’t stop loving you, I made up my mind”
Where there was such much turmoil and strong emotions involved , its not possible to forget. This being my one and only limerence .experience… no thanks, one is more than enough!
Hello Adam and MJ, sending hugs .
Hello Nisor.
Thank you for the virtual hug. Btw, the first song on my LO playlist is a song by Ray Charles. Not the one you mentioned though.
Take care Friend.. 🤗
Gotta love Ray Charles!
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-music/#comment-1526
I’m old enough to have had the privilege of seeing him and The Rat Pack perform live (not together). Unfortunately, I’m too young to have seen them at their prime. I missed Nat King Cole. But, my father said that he saw Cole perform live. My father said Cole was phenomenal.
LE, hi
Oh Yes Nat King Cole, the velvet voice. The one and only! I always associate him to Christmas with his song: Chestnuts roasting on open fire… (out of season ! Springs starts tomorrow… hence Louis Armstrong , I can hear birds in the sky… etc , don’t remember the title.
Have a pleasant evening.
LE,
The song is : What a wonderful world, Louis Armstrong, good song for spring. (No birds in the sky in the song) , though here already the swallows have arrived , some at least, diligently making theirs 🪺 nests on the houses eaves .
Nisor,
My favorite Nat King Cole song is “Ramblin’ Rose (1962).”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmungyK5R_I
I was 6 years old.
There was a local burger joint down the block from my grandparents. This song was on the juke box. Every time we’d go in, my mother would play this while we waited for our order. It’s one of the truly pleasant memories of my mother that I have.
After LO #2 declined my marriage proposal, became a gypsy nurse, and moved across the country, it took on a whole new meaning.
More poignant but nowhere near as pleasant.
“Unforgettable” (1961) isn’t bad, either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XDAnPvTQFo
My folks had a record of Nat King Cole and I use to play “Love” to the point my mother would hide the record occasionally. 🙂 I just love the horns in the song.
Love — Nat King Cole
https://youtu.be/UZWmtxLiiFE?si=XLKtS6XxP86ML9Mb
Beautiful memories with grandma LE!
Beautiful songs, I do remember them! Oh, golden youth where are you ? Wish those times came back again!
Strength to you too, Nisor.
Community discussion comments moved to Coffeehouse
Dr L.