One of the unanswered questions that keeps me occupied in my ongoing investigation of limerence also comes up surprisingly often in my mailbox:
Is limerence a specific condition, or is there a spectrum of limerence?
In one case, limerence would be the altered mental state defined by Tennov, and you are either in limerence or not in limerence at any given time in life. As she put it “either the algorithm is operational, or it is not”. This would be limerence as a binary state that is either on or off.
The alternative case is that limerence is just an intense form of a more universal emotional phenomenon. This obviously has some merit because most people have some experience of feeling romantic infatuation, even those who do not relate to the concept of limerence and are sceptical of its existence. The reaction of most “non-limerents” to Tennov’s criteria is to recognise and relate to some of the symptoms, but have difficulty believing they could become an overwhelmingly disruptive force in life.
So, is limerence a real “thing” or is it just a term applied to people who struggle to manage more intense than average romantic feelings?
This sort of issue plagues the field of social psychology. Humans have a tendency to take a phenomenon that exists on a spectrum, draw an arbitrary threshold, and split people into categories based on whether they are above or below the threshold. When does stress become mental illness? When does cleverness become genius? When does sensitivity to arousal make one Highly Sensitive? When does enjoying gambling become a behavioural addiction?

Now, to an extent, this is all academic. There is value in identifying the top few percent of the population on any given personality or emotional trait and classifying them as a special case. Being at the tail end of a bell-shaped curve does make you unusual, after all. For those familiar with Elaine Aron’s concept of the Highly Sensitive Person she is completely upfront about this being her approach. Everyone finds the world arousing, but the top 15-20% most sensitive people will have a different experience to other people and so need to understand their vulnerability (and/or gift) to be able to thrive.
In other cases, though, it does matter if there is a distinct category difference.
Many people enjoy a drink, and the feeling of intoxication that alcohol causes. Desire for alcohol exists on a spectrum, with some who hate the stuff and others who drink daily, but there is good evidence that alcoholics aren’t simply the top 5% of a bell-shaped curve. There is a physiological basis to their addiction (gene mutations for some neurotransmitter receptors and metabolic enzymes cause alcoholics to have a heightened reward response to alcohol). Physiology is not the whole story – environment is just as important in promoting addiction – but the point is that for alcoholism there are additional factors in play beyond ordinary variation in taste or willpower. Alcoholics can rightly be considered a separate class from non-alcoholics.
So where does limerence fit into this binary versus spectrum debate? Well, social psychologists have developed a range of tools over the years for quantifying love, and trying to put a number on how “in love” people are. This field is of course bedevilled by the problem of what love is but, in terms of limerence, the most relevant test is probably the Passionate Love scale developed by Elaine Hatfield and colleagues. This questionnaire asks people to rate their agreement with various indicators for passionate love feelings (as distinct from companionate love), and serves as a pretty decent list of the symptoms for what we call limerence.
The passionate love scale has been tested across many cultures and many demographic groups and the results suggest that passionate love is a human universal. I’ve struggled to track down the original data, but the average (mean) score on a scale of 0 to 9 is around a 7 (note that a confounding factor is that the test is often applied to people who have self-reported being “in love”). As with my own analysis of the LwL-refined limerence survey there is likely to be a wide range in the scores reported by individuals, but a key question is whether the distribution of these scores is a simple “normal” bell-shaped curve or if there is more complexity to the distribution. I can’t answer this for the passionate love scale, but for my own data it does look like a normal distribution, albeit with a decided skew towards higher scores:

There’s more than one way to interpret these data. The first is that it shows there is variation in the intensity of limerent feelings among self-selecting people who have taken this survey.
Another way to interpret it is that as a blend of results from a majority limerent people (who score higher) and a minority of non-limerent people (who score lower). For the latter case, you’d probably predict a binomial distribution (the sum of two bell-shaped curves), but a significant problem for interpretation of the data is that the survey is anonymous so we have no idea what the individual circumstances of the participants are (I set it up as a tool to help people understand their own situation, not a formal research project).
So what does all this add up to? I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that the contribution from non-limerents to the data is minimal, and dwarfed by the large preponderance of limerents seeking help. For these people there is clearly a spectrum of intensity in their symptoms, varying around an average score of 70-75%.
However, the self-selecting nature of this survey still has the same issue that comes up for the passionate love scale: people from all cultural backgrounds distinguish being “in love” from loving someone. We love friends and family, but are usually “in love” with a romantic, sexual partner for a definable period of time at the beginning of a relationship. It’s recognisable as a distinct mental state that isn’t like ordinary life.
Limerents then, are people who score very highly on these psychometric scales of infatuation when they fall “in love”. They skew so powerfully towards the maximum intensity of feeling that their mental state when in love is usefully distinguished as “limerence”.
In other words, the state of being in limerence is binary, but the intensity of limerent feelings is a spectrum.

Can’t say that I understood it all, being in a particular lazy-brain state today.
I just want to add that it‘s all very complex. I alone, a true limerent, have varied intensity of limerent feelings dependent on my age and experience (is it the first or fifth LE), circumstances of life and also on who is the LO, how does he behave towards me , does he seem available or does he reciprocate etc etc.
But maybe I developed my own interpretation of the word limerence.
Some episodes in my life I wouldn’t label as limerence. For me, it starts when it gets to state of a painful and prolonged obsession.
The limerence for my SO in the beginning I actually would describe as falling in love, not as limerence.
I notice that I only describe episodes as limerence when there are barriers, which cannot be right.
I think I probably should reread what actually is meant by limerence instead of making up my own definition 🙈
The “intensity of limerence “ can be measured to the maximum in the spectrum scale! It can even break the scale like the body temperature in a thermometer that goes rocket sky high and burn your brain off… ( at least for mine limerence altered mental state this is true. I was ten months under this invasion of the mind, then it subsided naturally … but still won’t let go.)
And: “ It’s recognizable as a distinct mental state that isn’t like ordinary life.” Dr. L. I attest to this correct statement 1000 per cent!!!!
Have a great weekend and a most pleasant New Year , you all beautiful limerents
Mila,
“I notice that I only describe episodes as limerence when there are barriers, which cannot be right.”
That’s how I define it as well, though I know not everyone does.
If it’s two people meeting and having a consummated relationship, that’s falling in love. It becomes limerence when there are barriers and it can’t be consummated and it stays stuck in the “getting off the ground” phase. Limerence implies, to me, the feelings are unhealthy and interrupting one’s daily life.
Exactly, Marcia, that’s my personal definition, too.
It might not be Dr. L‘s or Dorothy Tennovs, though.
My perspective is there is that moment with limerence, the Glimmer, that makes it binary. I think some people do meet and fall in love over time but don’t have that momentous mind altering occasion. Some others have that supersonic Glimmer moment, and if no barriers they are still in limerence, but it is shorter lived as they can freely fall in love and consummate. The barriers and/or uncertainties is what amplifies limerence and extends it beyond what is healthy. And then at some point, one hopes, limerents realise it is hurting them and take steps to dial down the symptoms, or that the limerence simply runs out of steam, so this is the coming down ‘grey zone’ that Sammy speaks of.
@Imho.
I think you describe my experience. But for me the Glimmer wasn’t supersonic. For me, the Glimmer was kind of, like, a dormancy period of noticing this very interesting and attractive person in my life. Attraction was there, but it was very much a background thing.
In other words, my interest in my LO was immediate, but any feelings of excitement weren’t immediate. The feelings of excitement only came later for me when my brain collected enough data to say: “Hey, there’s a slim but real possibility this person might be interested in you too.” That’s when fantasies began to snowball and the feeling of being high while around the other person became noticeable i.e. supersonic land.
Barriers and uncertainty did indeed intensify my limerence and probably extend it to a point where it became unhealthy. However, my brain wasn’t very interested in running out of steam on its own, despite low or no contact, and periods of bad mood. I think lifelong limerence would very likely be in the cards for me if I hadn’t come across resources like LwL and Neurosparkle which explain the usually impermanent nature of infatuation.
I feel a little bit like an old aeroplane now, with no fuel left in the fuel tank, broken wings, and a missing propeller. In other words, maybe this plane would like to go on a couple more “flights of fancy”, but I think I used up too many resources during the last flight. So the plane is grounded even if I don’t want it to be grounded. 😉
I don’t know if one can fall for the same magic trick twice if one knows how the magic trick is performed? 🤔
Sammy,
A magic trick will lose all its alluring and effective power once one knows how it is performed — a downside of knowing.
Ignorance is a bless (impermanent though) — the other side of the coin!
Imho,
“And then at some point, one hopes, limerents realise it is hurting them and take steps to dial down the symptoms”
You’re a hopeful person, aren’t you? 🙂
I think limerents are going to run right toward it. I know I didn’t finally back away and go NC until I finally accepted all hope was lost (there was actually never any hope, but I ignored all the glaring signs). The futility of it all took a very long time to sink it.
Marcia,
Happy New Year!
Are you INFP, as Sammy seems to say?
In my LE, I did not have realistic hopes at all for LO from the beginning, but kept mirages of hopes for the Phantom, which made LE brain pleasantly floating on the cloud of reverie for a long while… Then, my Unconscious through dreams killed the Phantom thus pulled down to the gray earth and lost the energy to fly high again…
The unconscious is always more powerful with its vast resources from one’s past…
@Snowphoenix.
“… Are you INFP, as Sammy seems to say?”
Ooh, don’t let Marcia know her name may have come up in conversation! 😆
No, it’s all good, Marcia. I only had something nice to say about you. I said I liked your non-judgemental response to stories of other people’s emotional pain. (My own included). And I said that I think that ability to be non-judgemental seems to be an INFP thing. 😉
I don’t know what it is? Empathy? Sympathy? But I appreciate it. 😊
Sammy,
Are you covertly pushing Marcia to read your “War and Peace” – 2? 😅
Marcia,
I attest that Sammy’s assertion here is totally true; or you can check it yourself… 😄
Sammy,
“Are you covertly pushing Marcia to read your “War and Peace” – 2? 😅”
I don’t have time! I have to go to bed in three hours! 🙂
Snowphoenix,
“I did not have realistic hopes at all for LO from the beginning, but kept mirages of hopes for the Phantom, which made LE brain pleasantly floating on the cloud of reverie for a long while…”
I’m not sure what you mean by the Phantom.
Yes, I am an INFP. I’m assuming you are ?
It’s the coolest, most interesting personality type. Outside of INFJ. (Cough, cough, Mr. Sammy.) 🙂
Marcia,
Yes, I’m glad we are in the same MBTI boat (even I don’t truly buy the system)! 💃🏻 But you’re stronger and more mature.
I talked before that I created a Phantom (no realistic face) — an idealized parent, since childhood and subconsciously attached him to all my LOs. Then subsequently found that all LOs were incapable to serve as the Phantom. So I actually limerent for my own Phantom carrying a vague image of LO.
After recognizing the disparities between the Phantom and flawed LO, I was still unable to kill my limerence (did not want to) or interactions with LO, that’s the “tragedy” of it. Yet I suffered less than other limerents here from any realistic expectations from LO, except that unexpected jealousy provoked by LO’s secret LO. Finally, my Unconscious came to “rescue” my muddled head….
It’s about 2:30am here. I don’t care about time (manmade) when I am really engaged in life….
@Snowphoenix and Marcia.
Ah, very good, ladies. Very good. Very nicely played – a checkmate move I never saw coming. If you two ever join forces and start your own act as a comedy duo, I’ll be out of a job… 😆
Another great thing about INFPs – they can be very funny. 😁
@Marcia
“I know I didn’t finally back away and go NC until I finally accepted all hope was lost (there was actually never any hope, but I ignored all the glaring signs). The futility of it all took a very long time to sink in.”
This is where I am at now finally after 1.5 years of my LE. I think accepting the death of hope is very key and can be very much a turning point. And even so, my mind still has to fight against it hope but I am able to do it better the more I accept it.
Sammy,
“Another great thing about INFPs – they can be very funny. 😁”
And sexy. It’s the sexiest of the personality types. 🙂
Snowphoenix,
“But you’re stronger and more mature.”
Well, that’s sweet of you but I am not mature. 🙂
“I talked before that I created a Phantom (no realistic face) — an idealized parent, since childhood and subconsciously attached him to all my LOs. Then subsequently found that all LOs were incapable to serve as the Phantom. So I actually limerent for my own Phantom carrying a vague image of LO.”
Ah, ok. I guess I may have had a Phantom of the perfect lover. Projecting all of that onto any LO I had. I was going to rock their world the same way they rocked mine! No woman had ever affected them more! Yes, I can hear myself. 🙂
Speedwagon,
“And even so, my mind still has to fight against it hope but I am able to do it better the more I accept it.”
Hope is a hell of a drug. 🙂
Now I just don’t want to ever go through limerence again. I don’t want to do that to myself again.
Hello Sammy, thanks for your message and nice to connect with you, maybe the first time. I feel you and Snow are on a maybe more creative intellectual sphere than me. However, I think I can join your INFP fan club unless it’s already oversubscribed?! I think it’s quite telling how many similar personality types are here. I think we are special !!
Interesting how you had a more organically growing limerence experience than a specific moment in time that I had- my full on glimmer. But I guess there was still a moment when your brain clicked. I found it a blessing and a curse at the same time.
I like your aeroplane analogy very much. I do have many flights of fantasy far too much, far too often considering my age and status. New places seem magical to me and often disappoint in reality, because I build up a child like fantasy about them like something from an old movie. Anyway, my limerent aeroplane is now at this moment dipping it’s wings to below the lovely white clouds of exploration and fantasy to a place where the sky is no longer expansive and the sun isn’t so warm or glowing but I know I need to continue to land my plane here none the less !
Hi Marcia – thanks for your message. I am indeed hopeful. Others have shown us there is a way out. I’m going on that direction but not found the exit door yet.
Imho,
“Others have shown us there is a way out. ”
There is. But you have to want out. Or at least the part of you that wants out has to be bigger than the part of you that doesn’t.
It really is up to the limerent. I know that’s irritating to hear, but it’s true.
Imho,
Welcome to INFP fan club!
The only fan here is INFJ, honey-bantering with two existing strong, independent, imaginative, dreamy, sympathetic, empathetic, loyal, “funny”, sexy INFP, with cptsd but a huge, silky heart…
Like you, in all my LEs, there was this “supersonic Glimmer moment”, which INFP probably will never forget even if she gets dementia…
Are you the one who recently went abroad on business and met your LO and his SO, he did not invite you out for tea or talk, and you came home with deep sadness? Please forgive me if I remembered wrong, there are so many cases here with SOs…
******
“An INFP is like a gentle breeze,
A dreamer with a heart at ease.
Their empathy runs deep and true,
A soul that sees the world anew.
In quiet moments, lost in thought,
Their creativity is finely wrought.
With passion burning in their eyes,
They seek for truth beneath the skies.
Their kindness flows like a river’s song,
Embracing all, righting every wrong.
Though fragile as a delicate bloom,
Their spirit shines through any gloom.
So here’s to the INFP, unique and rare,
A wellspring of love, beyond compare.”
*****
Bet you didn’t see that one coming…
Coming with mystery and shy eyes…
You didn’t know that one read you in a glance…
That one probably wouldn’t tell you even if given chance…
That that one striped your soul bare
Of the clothes that it wears…
Who knew that one was so smart?
Who knew that one carried such a big heart?
But you see it now that you stepped on the outcast’s toes
Who knew that one who seemed so lost and far gone
Was reaching out to the world, present and near
With love, hands offering peace and warmth
That one is unpredictable
Mystery indescribable
But is that one really?
Or is it that the world doesn’t want badly enough to cherish what matters most?
*****
INFP
We are drifty, enigmatic little things.
Ghostly creatures that almost waft through the world. Unnoticed by society for our seeming meakness.
But within us is an entire universe that we can bend to our will. Entire cities fall and are remodelled in our minds just to entertain ourselves. Our minds bring storms of emotion and gusts of inspiration that we hamess to deal with the outer world. This inner universe is our tool, our way to show someone lucky enough to become close to us how much we care. And we can use this universe to show us a way to do so.
– C.M.R. Stevens
*****
I might be quietly thinking in my head,
but then I’ll enter a beautiful place
or hear beautiful music. Everything stops …
and then my brain explodes.
Suddenly, everything is music and beauty and poetry
and fantasy and light
and raw emotion, all tangled and mixed
up together in one big beautiful mess,
deep in the core of who I am.
It takes my breath away.
*******
Marcia,
“I guess I may have had a Phantom of the perfect lover. Projecting all of that onto any LO I had. “
You were “luckier” in your LE for knowing what you wanted on both psychological and physical levels, your conscious and subconscious mind worked coherently for the same aim — to get a perfect lover, which is what 99.99% of limerents are after.
In my all my LEs, I was deeply confused about what I exactly wanted and chased: my Unconscious/biological drives chose a LO within five seconds, but my subconscious mind and psychology so badly needed and sought ideal parenting, so naturally I subconsciously attached my phantom to LO, since my whole system by then was already taken over by the glimmer, with little, vague recognization at the beginning.
Then while interacting with LOs, my system was split: my altered mind was seeking and expecting loving and caring parenting (probably flavored with “innocent romance”), while my neural system was turned on subconsciously and uncontrollably — my eyes brightened, face blushed, words shattered, and tongue tied, body invisibly trembled, which LO picked up, which embarrassed me. Yet I almost never felt an urge to even get physical closer to LO, LO tried with me and I often backed up or “ran away”.
Due to this strong split between conscious and unconscious desires, I astronomically confused myself as well as LO, and I could not get into PA even when it was offered (aside from other logical reasons). Even after getting in LwL, I pondered over for long what was happening in my system as whole…
In your situation, if LO was/is available, then there would be a chance to go further; in my case, regardless LO’s social status, I’d never get what I so desperately wanted and desired — No one else, LO or not, could surrogate—parent another adult-child, after she or he has passed that crucial developmental stage, when an unconditional love should ideally be given! That’s why my marriage did not work out, because my nice, boyish SO could not meet my adult-child needs — I was deeply disappointed (subconsciously compared him to Father or the Phantom)
Now, I am much clearer about my altered mind, my covert desires in multi-levels, and some ridiculous, regrettable but understandable behaviors in this lengthy limerence. I have to be vigilant about different and similar characteristics and aims of cptsd and limerence in the future.
Marcia,
Even EA I claim I desired was one-sided, not for two equal grownup/lover but a spoiled child to her beloved parent: I wanted LO to know everything about me, inside out — thus those long, written monologues with little expectations of any reply but with a lot highs/contentment of my own spontaneous, liberated or creative writing, which itself always induces high/excitement in me, my mind is the first listener, often replaying words and contents in my head after their composition. How LO was going to react or whether he thoroughly read them was little relevant, I told him so in person. He served as a “muse” as well as a container — a silent therapist.
Meanwhile, I cared little and rarely asked about LO; up to this day, I still don’t know about his favorite books, films, music, and food (except he likes rosy color most, I instinctually guessed it correctly), except limited stuff that LO has chosen to tell me.
My limerence is split by body and mind: on the subconscious level, my physiological self was attracted by a pair-bonding WITHLO; on semi-conscious, psychological level, my altered mind limerented for a projected, ideal parent IN LO.
Hello SnowPhoenix, thank you for your message. Yes you made the right connection, I’m the one with the long distance LO, you perfectly summarised my last meeting with him. I love drinking tea too ! Ha ha.
Yes indeed you are right it’s an INFP club and the fan of the club is the one and only Sammy….INFJ! Well thank you for welcoming me to the club and our unique list of traits that you catalogued so beautifully. I appreciate that and all the lovely poems you shared 💌. I copied them over to a file to save for future ! I’m quite new to the whole personality trait thing and it’s very revealing. If I understood my true self better at an earlier age I think I would truly be in a different place, situation and job right now. Trying to fit it in but not really achieving that goal, whilst still being true to self. I’m sure many of feel the same !
Snowphoenix,
“I wanted LO to know everything about me, inside out … Meanwhile, I cared little and rarely asked about LO; up to this day, I still don’t know about his favorite books, films, music, and food (except he likes rosy color most, I instinctually guessed it correctly), except limited stuff that LO has chosen to tell me.”
I mean … no offense, but that does sound like a parent-child dynamic. I remember I was at least a teenager, maybe even older, when I realized my father had whole parts of his life — at that time and before I was born, of course — that had nothing to do with me or being my parent. I know it sounds obvious, but we always see our parents … as our parents, and not really automous beings outside of that identity. I’m definitely playing out some kind of parental dynamic with my LOs, but I never wanted my LOs to be my parent. I think because I associate the word “parent” with my father, and he’s not a good parent, so I wanted to distance myself from that association as much as possible.
I wanted my LO to really know me and understand me but I wanted to know and understand him. That with a PA. As the limerence wore on, I started to question whether he was capable of wanting to get to know me. I think he was pretty shallow. I was appealing enough and giving him attention. I think that sparked his interest. And he certainly didn’t make much of an attempt to get to know me.
I wonder if I’d just had a PA for a bit with him, I would have gotten him out of my system because I think I would have gotten frustrated with the … lack … in the whole situation. Without the high of the limerence, I think my interest would have waned.
Marcia,
“I mean … no offense, but that does sound like a parent-child dynamic. I remember I was at least a teenager, maybe even older, when I realized my father had whole parts of his life — at that time and before I was born, of course — that had nothing to do with me or being my parent.”
In my case, it was more referred to the period from 0-8, when I rarely got to see my parents but spent 6 days a week in daycare or weekcare, (or with Granny from 6 to 18 months stay (living 3000 miles away). I painfully pined every moment to be picked up by Father (I don’t have memory Mother ever did), to play hide-n-seek, to be taken to park, to be listened to and talked with about my dreadful experiences in that hateful childcare place…
In hindsight, when I began setting my eyes on boys during my puberty, I was already subconsciously searching for an ideal parent, of course, modeled by Father. I’d be better off if my irascible, Narc mother had never existed! No modeling of any amiable feminine quality in my family, but some in my close gfs’ mothers. Of course, loud, opinionated but tough loving, kind Granny (a kind of like stereotyped Italian Mama) was my model, but I only realized this much latter.
“I know it sounds obvious, but we always see our parents … as our parents, and not really autonomous beings outside of that identity.”
Besides being parents, my parents were almost like strangers to me before 12 and remained so during teenage, it never occurred to me that they had their separate autonomy, they were unknown to me. .
During my all my LEs, my “unknown”, cptsd (only diagnosed and recognized in 2016) onset during my childhood, made me SUBCONSCIOUSLY seek an ideal Phantom parent in boys and men with strong feminine characteristics — a mother figure in male?
Only in this LE after writing so many missives and monologues, I realized that I was mostly treating LO as a parent figure — my LE really began after Father’s sudden, devastating death in Dec. 2017, 9 months after the Glimmer, when I was also working with LO on a project. LO is a good father of two daughters, everything fell into a place for an escalating limerence, but not for fair-bonding romance/affair. I clearly remember that I was consciously thinking (before deciding whether I should “confess” to him: he’s safe to “confess”, no PA could ever happen between us.
LO asked first and along the way, and subsequently learned a huge chunk history of my childhood, youth, family dramas, cptsd, failed marriage/relationships, therapies and health — my ongoing thyroiditis and its subsequent lymphoma… while he remained enigmatic. From this perspective, he did serve as a listening “father” or a stranger “therapist” or a caring “friend” without judging or giving me any advices. It was like a series of informal “therapy sessions”, which (mostly my own written words) partially healed my old cptsd wound, while simultaneously added new one because he would not reciprocate my muddled desire for EA or subconscious one for PA.
Four years passed like this with my relative contentment and some mental highs (did feel its insufficiency due to little reciprocation even for a “child-parent” EA), until LO’s secret LO appeared 2 years ago in 2022, which induced my jealousy, for the first time in my life. Then I nonstop questioned the nature of this unfathomable obsession for confessional monologuing to LO, followed by some dramatic incidents and several failed LC/NC, and then LwL….
Imho,
Unlike many limerents here, I was not into MBTI stuff, even after one of my cousins pressured me into it for years. But after “the one and the only Sammy” (you’re going to make him to raise his chin like a peacock soon or change into an extrovert 🤭) and Marcia “shined” so brightly with their personality, I decided to give INFP more checks, and pulled off those poems from internet just yesterday. I think Adam or Limerant Emeritus one posted a link to MBTI types all described in beautiful verse/lyric, but could no longer find that link.
“If I understood my true self better at an earlier age I think I would truly be in a different place, situation and job right now. Trying to fit it in but not really achieving that goal, whilst still being true to self.”
I think if I knew earlier about my Self, particularly cptsd and its huge impact on the formation of my personality during childhood, I’d have errored less, lost less, suffered less, and loved more (Philia, Apate, Philaupia).
But I do not regret where I am now… We are dreamers and drifters, wafting through the world like in a never-ending treasure hunt; every experience counts and holds its own value — good ones enriched our existence, bad ones severed us as teachers… If we are able to change our perceptions or reactions, then nothing external could “defeat” us, we would become our own queen or king, wisely creating and ruling our internal beautiful, poetic landscape… Who cares about what the external world thinks of us?
If true to ourselves, I don’t know if internet defined INFP type could ever completely fit in anywhere (aside for survival). I’m trying to fit in my complexity SELF (the Unconscious takes its majority space) more comfortably, and is feeling better…
@Imho.
Hello. Thank you for your kind words. Is it really the first time we’ve connected? That’s amazing! 😜
“Interesting how you had a more organically growing limerence experience than a specific moment in time that I had- my full on glimmer. But I guess there was still a moment when your brain clicked. I found it a blessing and a curse at the same time.”
I think maybe it’s better to fall into infatuation in a flash than to fall into infatuation gradually, because if the infatuation has happened gradually, then the limerent will cling to the infatuation even more strongly, because they believe they’ve collected insurmountable evidence that they interpreted the whole situation correctly.
Yes, there was definitely a stage where I felt I couldn’t really control what was going on inside my head – either the thoughts or the strong emotions. I think I believed at the time that if only I could transform myself into the “right kind of person” than the LO wouldn’t have cause to reject me, but that’s not how other people usually go about choosing romantic partners. That’s not how chemistry works.
“In one case, limerence would be the altered mental state defined by Tennov, and you are either in limerence or not in limerence at any given time in life. As she put it “either the algorithm is operational, or it is not”. This would be limerence as a binary state that is either on or off.”
I believe, based on Tennov’s research/ideas and my own lived experience, that limerence is binary. I would define limerence as a binary state. I.e. when one is lovesick one is lovesick and when one is not lovesick one is not lovesick. There are no shades of grey. You can’t have half a pulse or half a peanut allergy. When one’s in the state of limerence, the magnetic pull is to only one person – the LO.
However, I also believe there is a “grey zone” at the beginning of every LE and a “grey zone” at the end of every LE, where one can have one foot in the door and one foot out of the door of infatuation. During these two “grey zones”, one may be genuinely attracted in an intense way to more than one prospective partner.
I think the arguable existence of two “grey zones” can give the illusion to many informants and/or observers that limerence does indeed exist on a spectrum, because there is some freedom of will and some emotional flexibility during “grey periods”. One’s brain isn’t “locked” onto one specific person: longing has either not yet become compulsory, or longing is fast ceasing to be compulsory. 🙂
I track completely with this, Sammy
To me, limerence, like Glimmer, is binary; either one is set off or has zero ounce of it, at least that’s in all my LEs. I never half-heartedly “loved” someone…
In my case, limerence follows glimmer immediately, in 5-10 seconds, with little or none gray zone, despite I didn’t realize it, or ignored it, or tried to repress it… Once the Lightning bolt (almost literally) had hit my neural system unconsciously at the genomic level, nothing my logical mind could do about it; “ the magnetic pull is to only one person – the LO” (even during a grieving time), who was always a total stranger yet looked very “familiar” in all my LEs.
Limerence to me is an intense longing (exist in limerents)— an understandable human nature, dormant before encountering a LO. It could be the biological desire for pair-bonding, or a childhood unmet need to be met, or for some fetish fantasies to be actualized… Somehow with that mysterious glimmer, limerents automatically feel or believe LO could possible meet their romantic or particular needs, with little or insufficient knowledge who LO actually is, particularly his or her inside.
I also agree with that limerence is strengthened when barriers and uncertainties exist; and there are several layers in barriers and uncertainties:
Barriers:
1. Realistic barriers: SO on either or both sides.
2. LO misunderstands, non-reciprocates, or rejects limerent’s sky-rocketing infatuation.
3. LO is incompatible with limerents. (A total consummation won’t help)
4. LO’s incapable (flawed) to fulfill limerence’s fantasies or needs (no idealized surrogate parent could ever exist in any LO).
Uncertainties:
1. We NEVER know anyone else’ true mind (sometimes they themselves are even unclear of it) especially those unavailable, reserved, or masked LOs.
2. Good LOs would not give a straight “Yes” or “No” answer, so not to hurt limerents’ feelings; they or we want to keep a wishful “friendship”.
3. Bad LOs would certainly push-n-pull to dally with and skillfully extract limerent’s affection.
4. Everything is imperilment! One’s mind is in constant flux, could change whether LO is realistically available or not, upfront rejects limerent or not, flawed or not… so limerent (sub)consciously hope for a favorable change at any given time.
I agree with Sammy that there is a “gray zone” on the way out of limerence, before limerents have thoroughly exhausted their wits, become disenchanted, and seen through the addictive nature of their altered mind in the height of their limerence.
A new LO could sneak into this gray zone before limerents truly grasp what have happened to them in the previous limerence.
To me the different between “in love” and “in limerence” is that the former thinks more for “beloved” welfare; the latter focuses on one’s own benefits, like a whiny or spoil child.
Having profound longings is human (for whatever reasons), but when it intrudes and permeates into one’s whole existence, then it becomes unhealthy or toxic.
Sorry about all spelling errors, my eyes are blurry tonight…
“It could be the biological desire for pair-bonding, or a childhood unmet need to be met, or for some fetish fantasies to be actualized… Somehow with that mysterious glimmer, limerents automatically feel or believe LO could possibly meet their romantic or particular needs, with little or insufficient knowledge who LO actually is, particularly his or her inside.”
This is a very good summation of my LE. I think it has been the intense longing for my LO, while knowing all at the same time she is way out of my league, that drives me to the extreme emotional states I am in.
I see a perfect, unflawed human being whenever I look at her. I see a person who is the answer to every problem I have ever had or will have.
In that world there is no sadness or crying. No problem we can’t solve together or any mood swing I can’t handle. This is an altered state. One that I know is not real nor ever can be. It’s just what I want it to be. What limerence says can be. Just about every barrier that can be is present now and 1.5 years later, I think I just might be starting to snap out of it. Yet it hasn’t gone away entirely. Being LC by default has brought it to where things are now. It hasn’t removed it. I’m probably more in the “grey” zone at this point. I can’t say that it will ever go away. If I happen to see her or look at her picture, I don’t want it to go away.
My childhood was consumed with finding the most perfect girlfriend there ever could be. In my head I thought it would always just happen. It never did happen. Even in planning to marry my beautiful Wife at one time, it was never a feeling I had. In a way I guess I accepted it would never happen. That it was all just one big pipedream.
I truly believe that it was in that magic glimmer moment, when LO smiled at me one time, that intensity for her came out of nowhere. It was like I was hit with a limerence meteorite. (Its how it felt). Nothing has been the same ever since. I wonder if it ever will be. She is still Gods most absolute masterpiece..
Happy new year MJ, and best wishes.
“I see a perfect, y flawed human being whenever I look at her. I see a person who is the answer to every problem I have ever had and will have. In that world there is no sadness or crying. No problem we can’t solve together.” “This is an altered state. One that I know is not real nor ever can be. It’s just what I want it to be.”
Wow, MJ, this is the wonderland I always wanted to be! And to think I had it in my hands for real for three years and because of arrogance, misunderstanding, ignorance, I let it go, just as you let a bird free from its cage!!! I can’t never forgive myself for this error, so huge a mistake where i forsook and sabotaged my true love and happiness. All I do now is to regret my beautiful magic three years together with LO, and nothing I can do now will bring it back, ever! So, you can imagine my eternal sorrow that will accompany me till my last breath. It is said that regret is worse than rejection, it is! I sometimes think of it as a time when I could see with Gods eyes and feel with Gods’ heart even if for a fleeting moment… something you’re allowed for a little while, otherwise it would be unsustainable ! Just a magic moment to taste the wonders of heaven on earth! . My LO (then SO) was an admirable person, still is, as I talked to him one year ago, kind, polite, soft spoken, he had all the virtues I was looking for in a person. He’ll always be my beloved! I’m in NC because I know I can never again have him. Acceptance is a tall order , and that’s what I’m practicing. For I could listen to his sweet musical calming voice all day. Precious moments that will never be again… hubris is a bad thing to have. It ruins and stains the most delicate and beautiful things in life. We always kill that which we love most…(Oscar Wilde). So now I have learned humility and honesty with my feelings. I must conform and be comforted with what I have now, and what I had, that is: be grateful that it all happened, that I had the privilege to savor the ecstasy of the most beautiful feeling there is on earth and was reciprocated, lived it, and that God helped me survive its demise without going through a nervous breakdown! Perhaps, in the hereafter, we will be together for ever…. We will always dream, yes, dream on!
And may your dreams come through with LO.
You be good to yourself and have a wonderful week and a fruitful new year. A bear hug for you. 🐻
Thank you Nisor. You quoted me as saying I see LO as flawed and I originally wrote that I see her as unflawed. Which of course I understand is not true or possible. That is my big, dumb limerent mind at work. It is in my sickness over her that I see no flaws, which therefore makes her the answer to all my prayers.
I see that it’s hard for you to accept your loss. Even after all the years that have gone by. At least pat yourself on the back you had 3 years with him and that you have the fondest of memories to go with that. At least you knew him and all/or most of what he was about.
Regret is terrible and I regret every day, never stepping out of my comfort zone and just ask LO what’s up? There’s still no saying it won’t ever happen, but I feel like it’s a very tall order, that moment will ever just fall into my lap.
MJ you got to ask her. Last thing you want is Momma and I flying out there and trying to set you two up together. 🙂
Me six cocktails into the flight by the time we land because flying scares the hell out of me wouldn’t make for a first good impression on my part my friend.
Good to see you still posting. Take care of yourself. Imma go make me a pizza and a drink.
Hi MJ
The flawed LO was a typo . I don’t know how to transfer from post to post, so I write it down on paper, then copy it back on the phone. I’m
behind in technology because I don’t have someone near to teach me or ask how it’s done. I’m willing to learn though.
Sorry for the misquote. And thanks for the message. How’s your dad? You have a good day now. Hugs.
Nice to hear from you Adam. Hope you enjoyed your food and drink.
I know you’re only joking, but since you’re from the South, this is the last place you want to be this time of year. We have a snowstorm going through now and the chance for it every day the rest of the week. Sunday it’s supposed to get super cold and into the single digits at night. Stay where you’re at. Maybe LO will let me keep her warm if she gets cold and I won’t need you after all.
Thanks Nisor. It’s alright. I just didn’t want to be misunderstood.
Dads not doing great but he’s holding it down. There’s plenty of frustration being the only child to help out but I don’t have a choice.
Thanks again for the hugs and well wishes. Hope you are doing good yourself.
@MJ
We must be in the same region! That’s my forecast, too
Mj, it breaks my heart to know you alone have to care for your dad. It must be exhausting with work and all. Have you thought of an olds folks home? I’m considering myself with my brother, when we get unable to handle ourselves to go to an old folks facilities …
I was not limerent for my LO all those years, it was after 2022 that I had the dream with him that he has come to rescue me! It’s 20 months now, I’m tired of it , but everything reminds me of him. I happened to come across a photo of him in the internet, him much older, (I had no photos of him, I had mailed all the mementos and photos back to him when I walked out of the relationship) and I became vey sad and happy at the same time that I can picture him and not a ghost in my mind. I
don’t look at it every day but there’re times I need to see his face. And I remember you with your photo of your LO. What’s with us and this obsession with LOs? It’s pathetic like you say. But I’m not like that all the time. Let’s see what New Year brings. I think I’m ready for a change, my instincts are telling me to move… but where? SO , does not want to move, he just like vacations, something temporary and I want a steady move. It’s bad when one is old and cannot dream anymore. That’s why you have to take a stand with LO before the years catch up with you. Have a vision and follow it.
Got to go. Best wishes. Hugs.
Mj , Adam
Song of the blog:
“Gotta move”
Barbara Streisand sings.
That’s how I’m feeling right now! Got to move and leave everything behind. That’s how I felt when I walked away from LO. I needed some freedom! He was very possessive and jealous, and I was bored.
I’m having the same feeling right now! But I can’t go any place, my days of adventures are now gone … age , you know, it limits one from doing what you want. So courage and patience to put up with the times…
To young people: please use your time wisely, life is really short!
Best wishes. Know that I care for you both and keep you in my prayers. Hugs
Nisor,
When it comes to music it is one of the hardest to let go of. But I am pleased that I have started a “Moving On” playlist and filling it with songs about Momma. One day I will delete “that playlist” and will be whole again, hopefully. The first song on my new playlist will hopefully motivate me to stay alert from the limerence coming back. Time to make new memories with my music.
I Made It Through The Rain — Barry Manilow
https://youtu.be/PfdTDQjeM3g?si=pv-IF9ZEgpFU-W7T
Hi Adam,
Barry Manilow , such a crystalline voice, incomparable! My favorite from him is: If I love again.
Progress, I hear progress from you Adam! A new play list is needed for the New Year, let’s expect new things in our lives, new dreams and visions. Let the past go! Follow your dream! Changing times for all, renewal of our minds is needed. We will
be okay with Gods help.
Have a pleasant evening and a very fruitful New year. Hugs
Yeah Barry Manilow is great. I think my personal favorite would be I Can’t Smile Without You.
This song came up in a youtube suggestion. And it made me realize that she has stayed by my side through all this mess. Probably the most difficult thing we have gone through in our marriage. “I swear we’ve been through everything there is”. I wasn’t surprised I remembered a Kenny Rogers song from my childhood. I had a few aunts and my grandma that were fans of his. But this time Nisor it meant something. What I put her through with all of this. I sat with her last night on the couch and watched a movie while I ate dinner. Why did I do this to her?
Through The Years — Kenny Rogers
https://youtu.be/NJWS55sDbAc?si=ihYx1eXxXLpogMPA
“Through the years
when everything went wrong
together we were strong”
Adam hi,
It is a nice, meaningful song. You play it for your wife and let her listen to it. She’s been a wonderful wife to you, a noble one, that stands by you in spite of it all. But, you’re a good hearted man also, and you didn’t mean to hurt her. Your marriage bond is strong 💪🏽 and you have each other to care for. If only we could keep this limerence off of our minds… it’s not that we asked for it or went looking for it, it’s just happened, a treacherous altered mind state, we can’t control it at will. God help us all.
Blessings and hugs .
Haha, it’s funny this is brought up so recently – I keep thinking time and again, I truly could not have found this blog at a better time (unless I were to consider a time *before* realizing I was head over heels for LO, but then again, I’m not sure things would’ve turned out any differently).
I was recently telling some friends how I can tell my brain is still obsessed with LO, because all sorts of random little memories come back with the smallest prompts. I do also just think about him regularly. However, when it comes to these random memories, I no longer get a dopamine rush or a desire to linger on them – I’m more annoyed at myself for still remembering random snippets of conversations that happened so many years ago. This feels like it could be on the low end of the spectrum of intensity of limerent feelings, heh, closer to the mellow sentiment that once made think it was love.
I find myself at this point too. The last time something triggered a memory I almost immediately was like “NO! She doesn’t think about me! What is your problem?!”. The lost of a limerent “hit” and realizing that you wasted so much time on someone that never gave you a second thought is a good place to be. Because to me demonizing LO (provided it’s quite obvious they weren’t being manipulative) is not as productive to healing as realizing you did it all. You did this to yourself and so your suffering in limerence isn’t on anyone else but yourself.
Good luck with the future Limerick.
“The lost of a limerent “hit” and realizing that you wasted so much time on someone that never gave you a second thought is a good place to be.”
Yep
Over time, you should be in that state more and more until eventually, it all gets fuzzy and kind of “meh…” As important as it seemed at the time and you get past the “what was I thinking?” phase [seems to be part of of the process], it goes sort of blank.
Pulling them up in your head doesn’t give you the limerent “hit” anymore. Songs lose their intensity. Dates lose their significance. The list goes on.
Today is the 15th anniversary of LO #4’s starting her business. The last time I contacted her was 5 years ago to congratulate her on her 10th anniversary. She responded but she never replied. I haven’t looked at her site or social media in 2 years.
I won’t be wishing her a happy 15th anniversary.
Meh…
Hi Limerent Emeritus. I hope you didn’t wish her a happy 15th. Good to hear others are also in this “stage” of limerence.
Hi Mila. Yep, I agree with you – eating sweets seems to be a coping mechanism with regards to your LE. So, once you feel better in your LE, the dependency on sweets will automatically reduce. Keep going!
Hi Mila, I am really bad with sweets too, always have been. I broke the habit and got bad recently due to driving long distances and winter comfort eating and probably all this LE nonsense. Best for me is transference- ha ha ! So non-salted nuts, seeds and really dark chocolate near to hand and don’t buy sweets if you help it . All of these are healthier and I find I eat less of them too as slower release of energy. I dont really like dark chocolate but it gives a mini fix ( I think it releases dopamine or some feel good thing). You can get it with orange or mint etc if you really don’t like. Im also writing a food diary to keep me accountable, as trying to lose weight. I will write down the exact number of sweets I ate. It helps me at the moment.
Thanks for the tips Imho!
I ate no sweets today😌
If I eat nuts instead of sweets I tend to eat a lot of nuts:)and put in weight. I don’t need to lose weight but don’t like to put it on either. I like dark chocolate, actually! Will try that, thanks!
By the way, my LO asked if we have time on Sunday, like usual he didn’t propose any things we could do, so in the end we invited him and his kid round for dinner.
So, real contact as limerence test is looming ahead as I wrote earlier..
But with my family at my side and my newfound non-limerence I will stay strong💪🏻!
Dear Mila,
I look forward to seeing how you get on.
Dont let him get to you😉.
I admire your courage, actually, in having him around. Especially as work is busy. I hope that you continue to feel “non limerent” in the lead-up and that it will be a nice friendly day for you all.
Having lowered expectations of my LO is working for me. I hope it continues to work for you too.
Go Mila!
Hi Mila, Bewitched,
Keep the steel like strength you are developing, I like it ! Let’s visualise us transcending way above our LOs in any interactions.
Higher, Better ! Let’s report back on the ‘ Winter Coffeehouse’ forum to keep Dr L happy we are staying on topic.
I just had conversation with my long distance LO after more than 3 months seeing/ speaking. Will report back after I’ve processed it all.
P.S. I had 4 sweets from Christmas leftovers today. Yes I am weak but honest !! 🤣
Hi Bewitched,
nothing to do with courage, more with my special situation of LO being a friend. I wouldn’t have asked him for a meeting, but he did, and since I don’t want to disrupt the friendship I cannot suddenly deny all meetings.
Also, since I‘m feeling much better limerent-wise, I don’t dread and hope for it so much now.
Lowering expectations is the key, you are right!
I managed to get back to not expecting more than friendship.
I hope we go on being that strong! The year started not so bad for us!
Thanks for your good wishes, don’t know which time zone you are in, I wish you a wonderful day!
Hi IMHO,
wow I‘m curious how I it went!
I think the sweets can be excused in this case;)it’s anyway heroic to still have leftovers from Christmas, they wouldn’t have survived in my house.
So he kept his promise but wasn’t he a bit late, didn’t he say he would call last week?
Have to got to work but waiting for your report
(You are right, maybe on coffeehouse)..
Note from Dr L
Jim’s conversation has been moved to the “Winter coffeehouse” post for general discussion, as it’s a bit too off-topic for this post!
cheers for the update DrL , and kudos by the way for such a friendly , non-judgmental & welcoming site , this place is great
I agree with the summary statement at the end. I’m not 100% out of this LE but on the spectrum of feelings lower than ever. My question is when we are finally out of LE are we always susceptible to being limerent for that LO again in the future. There are times I swear it’s over and bam he calls and it’s back again.
For me, I had what I called an intrigue or fascination/attraction for my LO when he was with someone else and then in the most peculiar way, we ended up together and the high for me was real and I knew very quickly that if this ended I’d be devastated. So I was in high anxiety a lot and he turned out to be a narc so double pain. Now 1.5 years into break up I’m only just learning a lot about limerance. I always thought it was the early pink cloud/honeymoon phase of something but it goes beyond that for me. It’s also for me anyway, not binary to a distant non-reciprocal attraction. It’s very much present for me when in relation to an LO.
And I fit all the criteria for limerance
Dr L: explaining whether limerence is binary or spectrum.
me wondering what EA is: Oh yeah, I get it.
I struggle when limerence is referenced within a broader context as a type of love. It may feel so while stuck in a LE, but it simply isn’t. I’m even doubtful they can co-exist.
Personally, I experience limerence as binary. I’m in or out of limerence and my mind operates entirely different in those distinct states. Limerence, for me, is characterized by a complete loss of control over my thoughts – a sensation I don’t encounter in the infatuated state of a crush or a even a deeper love for someone. Furthermore, when I successfully “leave” a limerent episode, there’s a sense of strangeness. I’m left bewildered, unable to comprehend my own motivations behind my actions and thoughts. It’s akin to recalling the actions of a stranger. This feeling doesn’t arise with genuine care and love for a person. Limerence is addiction and it necessitates proper test batteries or psychological questionnaires for effective assessment. Describing it as ‘passionate love’ doesn’t align with the nature of addiction and feels as out of place as associating passion with, for instance, alcoholism.