Time for another topic of conversation in the coffeehouse.
A few days ago I had an email from Reuben who asked about the importance of eye contact in initiating limerence. His experience was that a brief moment of silent eye contact with his limerent object was enough to trip him over the edge into limerent reverie:
Nothing else, not a word, but immediately this activated all the neurochemical production to keep me occupied for a week.
I’ve blogged before about the prevalence of “their eyes” as an answer among limerents when trying to explain what it is that they find so compelling about their limerent object.
Eye contact can rapidly escalate affection. It can make you feel hopeful about reciprocation, it’s a powerful mode of non-verbal communication (crucially, one very prone to misinterpretation), and it’s a way of sharing intimacy when in a crowd.
There’s a classic study from the late 1980s where two opposite-sex strangers were asked to gaze intently into each other’s eyes for 2 minutes, and the results were dramatic. The group participating reported a much higher level of romantic and sexual interest in the other person that the control group that didn’t engage in mutual gazing.
This study has been followed up over the years and seems to be reproducible, and other researchers have added their own additional insights. One important result is that the gaze has to be mutual – if you look at a photo, or wear sunglasses to shield your own eyes, the impact of a stranger’s gaze is much reduced compared to when you know they can see your eyes too.
The reasons for this phenomenon, from a neuroscience perspective, overlap with the mechanisms that underlie limerence – most obviously arousal.
Holding eye contact with another person is arousing. It activates your sympathetic nervous system and makes your heart beat faster and breathing speed up. It makes you nervous. It also causes your pupils to dilate. But one of the interesting features of arousal is that it is a bit indiscriminate – both exciting and threatening things can be arousing. You get a similar bodily response to something thrilling as something frightening.
Eye contact is potent as both an invitation and a threat. Gaze is incredibly powerful for capturing attention. You notice immediately if someone in a crowd is looking at you. Knowing you have been seen and recognised is hugely important in threat-detection, as it may be a hostile animal or human that has noticed you. Or it might be a potential mate sizing you up.
Holding eye contact with someone else – even for only a moment longer than the normal social convention – is usually taken as a signal of interest. Conversely, breaking eye contact is a way of signalling disinterest, discomfort, or submission. If someone you are attracted to holds your eye for longer than usual, it is a very stimulating experience, because it communicates some exciting possibilities:
- You are a “salient” feature of their world
- They are sufficiently interested in you to break established etiquette
- They are willing for you to know that they want to look at you
- They might have enlarged pupils, suggesting arousal
Unfortunately, there’s also a big risk of misreading such cues. Classically, people who are not neurotypical are poor at processing etiquette-based behaviour. People who notice you are not always “positively” aroused, they may be wary for one reason or another. People vary in their temperaments – some may look away from a threat, some may keep an eye on it.
There’s almost certainly a sex-difference too. I can’t pretend I have data on this, but my prejudice is that women receive a lot more overt staring from men than vice versa. It is an unusual – and so even more striking – experience for a man to receive a prolonged stare from a woman. And men, typically, overinterpret this as romantic or sexual interest, perhaps because of its rarity, and because they don’t fear female attention as a source of physical danger.
Finally, manipulative people often use eye contact to assess other people’s receptiveness to status games. They use eye contact and norm-transgressions as a device to engage in dominance testing and social machinations.
Quite a bundle of psychological baggage there! Not hard to see why it has so much power over us.
So, over to the patrons of the coffee house: what has your experience of eye-contact and limerence been…?
Oh my, that prolonged staring are very obvious. When in my early twenties I used to ride a train to work. The trains were packed so you had to be standing. There was this tall gentleman with grayish eyes who would stare at me with those vulnerable , longing eyes, every morning, I would catch him staring and he would hold his eyes on me. I used to blush and looked down. I liked him, but was too shy to even stare back challenging him. He never got close to me because I was accompanied by a male friend. So he might have figured out it was my boyfriend? Till this day, I still remember those beautiful gray eyes looking so intensely at me while riding a crowded train to work. Then I moved and never saw him again. Lost opportunity ???
Have a great ay you all beautiful Limerents.❤️💪🏽🌹
After fifty years of not seeing my LO, (not even a picture), the most thing I can fancy of him are his greenish eyes staring deeply at my eyes that first evening we met; our eyes locked and I knew I was doomed! Lo always gave me that tender, vulnerable, longing gaze that’s memorable to me. That’s the only feature I vividly remember about lo, besides his height , he was tall; the rest of him is blurred in the passage of time and distance.
Eyes can perfectly speak the language of love. A sensitive soul can definitely understand it, receive it or reject it. There’s no denying it!
Love is a many splendored thing… there’s a movie with this name and a song also .
Relevant discussion for me as it was intense eye contact more than anything from my LO that sucked me into an LE with her. She reminded me of another woman I had a short love affair with 25 years prior. I will still maintain that no one looks at me like LO does. She just has a way of locking eyes with me and holding the gaze that much too long. It got to the point even where in my efforts to disengage her I starting making a point of not looking her in the eyes. Yet other times, during the throws of my LE, I would make it a point to hold gaze as long as possible and do the classic eye to lip gaze thing. I remember one time we were sitting at the corner of a table, reviewing something together, our face no more than maybe a 18″ apart and we had such prolonged silent eye contact that I felt both awkward and aroused. It is such an intensely powerful tool.
Also, I tend to catch LO looking at me quite often. She used to even pass by my office door and turn her head more than 180 degrees to catch eyes with me but in a way where she was trying to be covert. It all felt very intentional and attractive.
Here’s the catch. It can be fools gold. The eye contact, as real as it is, does not have to mean romantic intentions. I believe it’s just how some people are, my LO included, and she has no romantic interest in me. It is one of the things at this point that creates uncertainty in me and prolongs my LE. I try to put it in it’s right perspective and not think that she is somehow signalling her desire for me. She just has big eyes and tends to gaze. Thats all.
Don’t kid yourself Speedwagon, women express with their eyes what they can’t say with their mouth. (So do men) She just won’t admit it or go further because she has an SO, or have her boundaries . You say she’s shy and yet turn around to check you out in the office… hmm… that’s very daring I’d say. Just saying from a female perspective.
Eyes can speak louder than the mouth…. You be the judge of that.
Have a good day.
Some manipulative people use their gaze to toy with their victims. They get a thrill, not from the person they are gazing at, but at the power they wield over them.
Certainly could be true. Speedwagon would know better, of course, but I know in my case, if I have a crush on somebody, I often instinctively glance toward their office or wherever they happen to be.
I’m not sure why it matters if someone has a crush or not. It doesn’t mean anyone intends to do anything about it. Or that the person doesn’t have a crush on/feel attraction for several people.
It’s like applying for a job and getting an automated email telling you that you are in consideration for the position … but you never hear anything else about it again. It’s a bite. It’s not a job offer.
This is the bottomed line. Even if my LO felt some sort on inner crush towards me that compels her to glance my way or hold my gaze, she is so frustratingly aloof and relationally indifferent towards me that it just doesn’t matter. I’m over it with her. I would rather invest in people who reciprocate interest in me (friendship interest) than decipher my LOs glances.
There is a woman in my office that I have become friends with. She does not give me eye contact, glances, or vibes of any real kind when I am around her like LO does. But she talks to me, takes interest in me, and shares about herself with me. This weekend I was a little under the weather and she texted yesterday out of blue asking how I felt. I’ll take those actions all day long over my LOs eye contact.
Speedwagon,
“I would rather invest in people who reciprocate interest in me (friendship interest) than decipher my LOs glances.”
This means that you’re getting better. You don’t want to put up with crumbs anymore. 🙂
Question to Dr. L : Why are you not replying to my email?
About eye contact, yes in my limerence experience it has played key role. I’d read somewhere ‘you enter each other’s soul through eyes’ and that seemed the best way to describe my feelings during limerence. And it has been practiced so many times that even a microsecond of unintentional eye contact with LO now sends me into excitement.
Like many cases here, that intense or just a bit longer eye contact sucked me into limerence, by “sensing” there must be some mutual deep romantic attraction in it; I even felt there was instinctual draw— “soulful” connection in LO’s non-aggressive big eyes.
However, since young due to my genuine curiosity, I habitually, mindfully “gaze” at people a bit longer than norm, which caused many misunderstandings in men — believing I was infatuated with them, when it was not the case at all. In women, it sometimes drew their curiosity or willingness to help me.
Also, when I was infatuated with one LO, the rest of men in the world seemed to think I was infatuated with them, especially if I happened to chat with them, because joy radiating from my eyes — I could see it in mirror. It was extremely difficult for me to hide it in public — I have the worst poker face.
So as not to fall into rumination, no woman I have ever met has ever had to say “my eyes are up here”. The eyes are a beauty in their own. And maintained contact and an innocuous compliment are what started the glimmer with her. And the most important thing for me in intimacy with Momma. Nothing like looking into her eyes.
I’d take eye contact with the same grain of salt as flirting. I work with a guy who I’ve watched over the last year flirt with just about every woman in the office. I asked him about it and he admitted to flirting with everyone and that he likes the attention. Is really interested/attracted to all these women? I doubt it. But he enjoys the game. I get a kick out of him. He’s quite good at the game, but I have empathy for any woman who takes him seriously.
He’s not asking these women out. People who are serious about someone … well, their behaviour relfects it.
LO is neurodiverse and our eye contact varies between very intense holding each other’s gaze and both of us avoiding eye contact all together.
I genuinely cannot tell if this is due to mutual limerence, a power play or just neurodiversity. It’s maddening!
Song of the Blog: “Just One Look” – Lulu and the Luvvers (1965)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCKslkUD-BY
I love this song! A lot of people have covered it but IMO Lulu’s is the best.
The only time this happened to me was in college. I took one look at this girl and I was gone. There’s a long post on it in one of the early blogs. She had mesmerizing eyes. When she wore the right shade of blue, it was like her eyes were backlit.
None of my LOs had remarkable eyes. LO #1 had blue eyes. I think LO #2’s eyes were hazel but I don’t remember. I don’t remember hardly anything about LO #3.
I never met LO #4 in person. I’ve seen some pictures of her that I really liked but I never had the opportunity to look into her eyes.
I’ve seen what Snowphoenix termed, what was it, the light bulb in the eyes of the LO, many times. One time I looked up at him, our eyes met, and he was at my side in a second. He had sort of leering looks one day every time he looked at me, and that day he flirted with me constantly and blatantly. I usually use eye contact to try to figure out what he means by words and body language, since we’re not alone and I can’t ask more directly. It’s something to hold onto later when I start second-guessing my impressions.
Then there was a previous LO, who was a narcissist. We’d be standing at a table and he’d lean over and look up at me, and I could swear it felt hypnotic. Another time he was looking down at me, and to this day I don’t know if it was lust or what is termed a sociopathic stare.
I’m neurodivergent, but the eyes can help me figure out if an LO is flirting or being nice. The trouble is I often struggle with eye contact.
One thing strikes me, quite many people here describe themselves as „neurodivergent“, „neurodiverse“, „on the spectrum“ and other terms that I‘m not familiar with, but google helps:)
I just wonder, first, are these terms that you yourself found out about and found fitting,or did someone like a therapist or doctor diagnose that, second, if I should worry about being something atypical myself, because third, so many of neurodiverse persons seem to be prone to limerence (as I am)?
I never thought about it, I just thought everybody is different etc
I do wonder if the difficulties with processing social cues might make neurodiverse people more prone to limerence in general, but in my case, it’s my LO with the diagnosis, not me. I know that my LO, who is a high-functioning professional person, has a diagnosis (or three).
If you think you might be neurodiverse I would look into getting a diagnosis, rather than trying to figure it out from Google. I don’t think it’s anything to worry about though – you are still you, whatever labels you give yourself, and as you say, everyone is different.
Hi Onyx,
Thanks for your answer.
I guess my LO (also a high-functional professional person) definitely could be diagnosed with something neurodiverse. Maybe even me.
I also guess that as long as one gets along and has a happy life one doesn’t need to be diagnosed.
I‘m not that much into labels, sometimes I feel that people just have the need to fit into some drawer and feel justified in acting certain ways. (Those present excluded of course:)
Neurodivergent/neurodiverse are umbrella terms that include a variety of neurological differences such as ADHD, autism spectrum disorder, and learning differences like dyslexia and dyscalculia, amongst others. Because not everyone can afford a formal diagnosis (and because Autism is especially underdiagnosed in women, even those who have undergone professional assessment), self-diagnosis is considered valid by many autistic adults. Think of it this way: if you have a cold, you can probably recognize that you have a cold without going to a doctor to confirm. Likewise, an adult who has always struggled with understanding social cues, regulating sensory input, and adjusting to changes in routine, and has experienced these things to the extent that it has significantly affected their ability to move through the world successfully, can probably recognize that they are autistic even in the absence of a formal diagnosis.
Once I was traveling through Europe and a friend of a friend in Italy offered to tour me around his town and we had fun! I felt no sparks whatsoever but he was a great guy.
Later he wrote to me and said “I know we have feelings for each other. The way you stared at me before boarding the ferry… I just knew. I saw it in your eyes”.
I was flabbergasted. I don’t remember giving him any special looks, except maybe gratitude. They eyes can be misunderstood.
Absolutely. I also remember some episodes where eye contact was misinterpreted. Even happened that I looked at something behind the person and he thought he was meant etc
I was touring England, France, and Germany and had a reunion with two of my close high school classmates (both married), which happened after I had unexpectedly glimmered at LO #4.1 back in my town (had smaller LEs between major ones). So the male classmates thought I was infatuated with him, when I was just joyful inside out. But we did not talk about his misunderstanding there and then.
Six months later he came to my town on a business trip and took me to a fancy dinner wearing a black tuxedo, which deeply confused me. But as a good friend of years, I did not think of anything more. But later when he tried to hug me and untie in his bowtie in his hotel room, it shocked me to the core…
He stammered saying, “I thought, thought you…. “, and I blushed replying, “no, no, you must be misunderstanding”…. No other words were uttered! Later I really felt bad for him; for years we could not speak with each other again.
Italian men seem to be prone to women’s eyes — if you curiously pause your eyes at them more than 3 seconds, you’ll get a date invitation (w/ their business card) immediately. I got one at hourly rate in one tourist area, but did not go to any of three — 1 from ice-cream shop, 1 restaurant, and 1 street painter.
On my way home after my ultrasound checkup on Friday, I paused and gazed at a white stallion’s eyes (his owner was chatting with others nearby) from at least 2 meters distance, curious to see how horses would interpret my “knowing” eyes with their neurochemistry. Again, this dude (the same with a female one last year) became agitated — swinging his head, kicking the ground with altered feet, then beginning to “dilate”…. Before the halfway, I removed my gaze and fled the site….
I’d like to know if anyone else here has the similar eye-contact affect with random horses and dogs? It cannot be just me alone…
I do believe that mammals could sense and understand each other on a level of aggression or friendliness and can bond affectionately as seen in many moving YouTube clips.
DrL: From neuroscience point of view, what is going on here with my curious eyes that are also frequently melancholy?
With the horses, it would need to be a stable relationship…
@Fredirco
😅 I’m a limerent, can’t have that “Stable” relations…
Are their neurochemicals the same as humans?
Frederico, ha😂
Such doggy or “stable” affections can never satisfy an authentic limerent’s desire and needs… 😂
Agree with all the comments. Trying to interept and decipher something like eye contact (or flirting, as I wrote about) is an exercise in futility and wasted time.
Snowphoenix’s story is a good example. When someone is interested, they do something, they say something. They try to get things off the ground. Or they’re at least amenable to the other person’s attempts.
I second Marcia here that more than three quarters, those eye-gazing in humans are flirts meant to boost their insecurity, vanity or narcissistic fuel, when we limerent couldn’t help pour our mind and soul into such neurochemical affects and their possibly meanings. *sigh* — but we are just humans made of uncontrollable neurons….
There is a term — Narcissist Stare, for those “professional” narcissists who hunt and extract others’ “soulful” affection through their highly intensive gaze, which could replace those lame love-bombing behaviors.
@Marcia: my 6th grade classmate visited my town once more for work and accompanied me to see LO #5’s alive performance. He still got jealous and left alone before the half show…. We occasionally sent each other holiday greetings and kept updates of our other classmates.
Snowphoenix,
“I second Marcia here that more than three quarters, those eye-gazing in humans are flirts meant to boost their insecurity, vanity or narcissistic fuel, when we limerent couldn’t help pour our mind and soul into such neurochemical affects and their possibly meanings.”
I mean, staring and flirting could mean sexual interest .. but, tbh, who cares? If that’s all the person is doing, it doesn’t mean much. And we limerents take what is a simple tune, a hum, really, and turn it into a symphony in our minds.
@Marcia,
Totally true with our LOs. The worse is that even after we know we have made a mountain out of a molehill, we still could not turn off our switch to fantasize or hope, which annoyed and berated me most!
Like Sammy said that we can’t let go our “broken heart” by a “mirage love”!
Snowphoenix,
One of the things I did that helped was remind myself what was actually happening with my LO. I remember telling a friend about him and it was ONE conversation … because that’s all I could fill up.
Ok … there’s this guy at work who flirts with me and occasionally leaves me notes and visits me and I lunged at him once. That’s pretty much the whole story. I could piece apart every little thing he said to me — which I did! — but it didn’t amount to anything. It’s that great James Brown song. He was “talking loud and saying nothing.” 🙂
@Marcia,
My limerence #7 of 6 years is much extended and complicated, involving —
1. Father’s sudden death 😭. My world nearly “clasped” and LO happened to be there to “step in” by advising my project that was pulled through abroad successfully.
2. The beginning of my Hashimoto thyroiditis to lymphoma,😱 3 surgeries, LO was there in distance wishing good lucks.
3. Oral and written revealing of my historical and ongoing traumas w/ Narc Mother and in all previous LEs — an “expose” therapy with a free, nonjudgmental ear 👂, whose opinions I minded and feared most.
4. Inspired some creative writing — verses and lyrics, deep reflections on famous quotes. ✍🏽
5. Extensive researches, studies, explorations of philosophy, psychology, classical literature, and my Self in its multiple, complex hues 👁️.
6. Near 1500 missives and messages (more of my monologues) exchanged & 3-5 times of in-person chatting per week in 6 years; my daily journal in past 2 years; his two outright rejections of a “friendship” earlier, followed by my six informal LC & NC with his six “hoovering” back for “friendship” — he always initiated them. 🤔
7. Behaviors of a “spoil child” in writing whom I was never allowed to be in childhood, in which my emotional and mental vulnerabilities (cptsd) were honestly revealed to test if I could be accepted by a surrogate parent — the wish was mostly fulfilled. 🙇🏻♀️
8. No admitted EA; never attempts of physical touch even hands; never PG-14 level conversations; a couple of private walks, tea drinks, two platonic hotel visits, 1 champagne and 1 aged wine sharing for special occasions, 3 hinted offers of PA (?); my “brave” admission of him as the ideal-parental Phantom. There are substantial meanings between my lines for deeper connection, but little in his short, straightforward, boring emails and messages. He claimed once our relationship was “special” (when I wanted to go NC), and another time he admitted that my monologues inevitably produced some affects in him (when I wanted to cut him off again). 🧐
9. Day-dreamed and night-dreamed almost around clock but kept all logistical functioning intact. Growing two of me — Snow outside & Phoenix inside; two of him — a masked Sensor LO and & the perfect-parental Phantom. We both were mystified by the dynamic, 🙃 until I came to LwL.
10. Pushed by the challenging dynamic to boldly express myself, to shred old skins, to come out of timidity & insecurity, to gather scattered selfs, to face the imperfect reality, to face natural desires with peace, to mature in rocket speed, to ground through inner strength and contentment, etc. 🧘♀️
I can not and will not tell anyone around me, and I am not sure If I could conjure up a meaningful story of “a hero’s quest” or “a hero’s transformation” — can’t see an outline in this larger canvas of life. 🖼️
Meanwhile, how I could rid off the unrequited limerence while organically keeping a healthy “friendship with LO that may never reach my desired level — closer to an EA ❓(still can’t imagine gratifying PA without some degree of EA)
To come back to your message here: It’s not what he did to/with me in terms of satisfying my instinctual or romantic desire; but how I actively reacted by going beyond to improve and develop myself — using a dead-end for some beneficial gains. I see it as a positive side of my limerence, without which, I would not have been urged and pushed so hard to get onto my renewal journey.
There were times when I was seriously afraid that if I got my desired EA and PA from LO, my desire/limerence for him would die soon; that killing boredom or depression would come back to me.
“Life swings like a pendulum backward and forward between pain and boredom” — Schopenhauer
I wish to stay between pain and boredom, which means I can’t get the desired yet have to keep the desire alive somehow.
At some point during this lengthy LE, I wished MORE my desire for LO, not LO himself, will never die out, since it has inspired and invigorated me to try meaningful and beautiful endeavors. Here we come again (with Sammy previously) with Nietzsche — “It is our desire, not the desired, that we are in love with.”
I think I’m one of those who do not really want to get rid of limerence for its upsides, as long as I can manage its downsides through Buddhism, Stoicism, actualization, individuation, and meditation.
It’s a nature in life — no one can “have it all” physically, psychologically, and spiritually! Accept it, one could be content without being a monk or nun.
Snowphoenix,
“Meanwhile, how I could rid off the unrequited limerence while organically keeping a healthy “friendship with LO that may never reach my desired level — closer to an EA ”
I don’t think there is a way. I tried several attempts at LC. Several at NC. Finally, the last attempt at NC stuck. It was the only thing that worked. I couldn’t be around him without a small part of me still hoping for more. Even when I intellectually knew better. Even when I knew there was no hope.
And I couldn’t tell myself, “Oh, I’ll stay away from him and see how I feel in 6 months,” because that’s just white-knuckling it. That’s still having him sit in my subconscious, but on the back burner.
It had to be complete NC. Forerver. And only then did I start to get over it. And get some perpsective. On my behavior. On his.
Interesting, Snowphoenix! While I strive to keep LO in my life but to get rid of the need to have a limerence in my life, you don’t care that much about the LO but want to keep the limerence? Or did I get it wrong?
I really want to be cured of this limerence stuff. While it certainly gives one a special feeling of being alive, of life being wonderful and rich, it‘s so time- and energy- consuming.
I guess it gave me something positive too- I learned something about myself, and also it gave me this deep feeling of love for the world and of pain, that affects my work too in a way.
I understand about wanting to keep these feelings.
But I want to get rid of them always being attached to a person on which I’m fixated. I feel that this attachment is wasteful, it keeps me from being in the moment and having a clear view of my life.
And I think, the definition of limerence is that it attaches itself to a person. So I need to get rid of that.
I‘m on a good way at the moment.
Marcia, Snow, Mila,
By all of your observations on limerence and LOs I can only deduct that limerence only brings confusion in our lives forever more, and such awareness that makes you alive! It’s an interruption in our normal way of living… an interruption that prompts us to take action one way or the other, for it’s not sustainable.
As I understand, Mila wants to be cured of Limerence but wants to keep her Lo; Marcia wants to get rid of it all together; and Snow wants to keep limererence even if he can’t keep his LO… he needs limerence as a muse …
Im ambivalent , limererence, can make you bolder, more aware, alive, its true-but not having your LO brings pain, suffering and loneliness; it’s a love-hate kind of relationship. It’s too intense to sustain for a long period of time unless it consumes you entirely.( It’s an all consuming force, it depletes you, devours and eats you up after awhile.)
I myself, one time I love it, like it’s a need, a source to give me fuel for living, other times I hate and have the need to get rid of it, (only if I could). I hate it for making me crave like an addict for LO , and the pain, suffering and sorrow it brings me and the helplessness to termite with it at will. So it’s very, very confusing to our emotions. Should I, shouldn’t I… kind of thing, and: C’mon, Nisor, make up your mind!
Have a wonderful and peaceful week.
@Marcia, Mila, Nisor,
From what I understand DrL, the difference between healthy love and limerence is: the former do not Desire reciprocation; the latter carve for it, especially emotional one.
What I was trying to say, is that I wanted my DESIRE for LO alive, while not craving reciprocation from unavailable LO. Here I should not use term “limerence” any longer, It’s more like love — in love with one’s own DESIRE, not LO himself. In an extreme case, even if LO dies, the love for LO still goes on, like in movie “Titanic”.
@Marcia: it’s said by many what one Resists Persists. Some of us on the site has gone NC for decades but still with LO alive in their head accompanied by some sadness and regrets. Clearly, NC — a harrier, did not work for them. For me, after NC for 3 months, my positive emotion for LO seem to get stronger (but not crazy), since I tend to forget and forgive. Dopamine still surges after chitchats but much less drops, because I no longer (or even able to) care about a possible PA without EA, and my EA has been “perceived” steadily through the Phantom of LO— my own creation.
Again, no or little Cravings for reciprocation is the key to reduce or rid off LE pains. LO sits in the back-burner would NOT turn my daily life upside down but keep a fuse on. LO #1 is still in far back burner, his unrequited love for me still brings smiles on my face and gratitude in my heart, while I’ve lost contact with him for ages.
@Mila: I do want to keep LO in my life as a substantial, platonic friend — hopefully a discussion and debate buddy like with LO #5, but reduce LE’s craving for EA. An example here: at beginning, I expected my emails and messages to be answered, and LO did some but reduced later. I found it was anxiety and pain arousal, so I gradually turned my missives into monologue-like talks that did not require any response; if he did, then it was bonus! After genuinely expecting little or no response, his rare replies (once a month or much longer, but we chitchat with each other weekly), no matter how short or former, would bring me huge dopamine fix each time.
The 2nd principle of Buddhism is that all pains in life come from attachments; yet as a layman, we all have our attachments to a variety of matters. Having a healthy dose strengthens one’s Ego for worldly achievements. But limerence’s attachment or craving often slip into Addiction, it’s instinctual and neurochemical based or related, so almost impossible to resist or battle with WITHOUT clear awareness, willpower, and specific physical means. I no long berate myself for my limerence “attachment” reduced so many nowadays. .
Now, we are better equipped with LE’s knowledge, can we manage LE better or Live with Limerence in peace as the goal of this site? Can we tame the “beast” without killing it? After all this “beast” has its beneficial merits. From what I hear from the site, a lot of us want to deal with only one side of the coin, and reject the other, as if it were possible! To accept pain would reduce pain itself, no matter what kind — just sit “meditating” with it and tell oneself it’s an inevitable nature.
@Nisor: I do not want to keep “Limerence” but to turn it to a healthy unrequited love/desire like Quasimodo’s love for Esmeralda. Limerence came as confusion or destructive force because we did not understand its neurochemical nature. In life, without desires, barriers, confusions, conflicts and struggles, battles to conquer them, one tends to be “lazy”, rarely progress. Without a challenging quest, there would be no heroes. To be honest, I was often bored and restless with regularity or routines of daily life since young, I needed and wanted novelties or challenges of some sorts almost all the time.
As a semi buddhist, I did not expect, let alone crave for, much of anything after the glimmer set in; I was content with just unavailable LO’s Existence — and I told him so (I don’t easily glimmer big). After slipping into limerence, it was still not love-hate dynamic for 4 years. Knowing the unavailability yet still craving for something in return would be just unwise. My logical mind was still able to reduce the degree of my craving.
As I said many times before, my cptsd-affected brain automatically created an ideal-parental Phantom, who would reciprocate whatever I desired in my daydreams. I was aware of the gap between LO and his Phantom, the former a flawed Sensor; the latter an ideal surrogate parent. That’s why I was more in limerence with my own imaginations, which did not mess up my logistic life, thanks to my previous science/engineering training.
Again, I would love to keep alive an unrequited LOVE/desire for LO, and keep his platonic friendship as a fuse for my muse in other aspects of my life. It’s a tall order, and I have to incorporate all effective means to get there.
Back in spring, I wrote a poem about LO being separated from the Phantom (last 1%) through my dream in which he had a son (2 daughters in reality). Also, the Phantom was a “godly son” originated from LO soon after my glimmer, but grew on his own.
I actually sent the poem to LO after I “cut him off” in person in April, but got no reply. My mind has tried different forms of NC, yet we’re back chitchatting warmly and friendly again in office, which brings dopamine fix…. Is this all due to that bloody neurochemicals?
******
Return to His Homeland
In the dreamy dawn of March 15th
A goddess (Athena?) severed the last 1% of the tie
binding the phantom and his human incarnation
by “incriminating” the latter
in front of his sulking teenage son….
It finally yanked his birth-giver
out of her girly willful fantasies
in a whirling rainstorm,
threw her into a freezing, turbulent sea,
shocked, sunk, surfaced,
squinting at the wavy shore
of melancholy adulthood….
A white, barren gallery room after
an invisible sweeping fire
in the night dream of 9/20/2018,
began the human shape of the phantom.
With his originator’s visual and verbal sketching,
unsketching, repainting
in her uninhibited slumbers,
longing daydreams, and
keen observation of the cruel realities
he has stretched out of his human skin
dangling at an edge of the canvas….
Half a decade later,
after the shattered hope to reconnect
the fleshy father and godly “son”,
Athena “at a turning in the [creator’s] road”
cut loose the last tying thread
returning the phantom to his homeland —
her imaginative, luminous sphere,
refocusing her gaze at the earthly realm of
the body, mind and spirit
violently shaken
by divine buzzes and battles,
with her spirited, shapeless phantom standing by….
March 15-17, 2023
In a way, I have already disclosed to LO without ever using word “love”, infatuation, “have feelings” or “limerence” since I did not know what IT was. He knows he used to be the Phantom — an ideal surrogate parent, but no longer. I stopped NC in all writing on Summer Solstice — just suddenly felt sick of it, and naturally stopped completely.
He inquired about my silent summer and I just said that I needed time alone to take a care of my overall mental health, which has improved tremendously. If I ever disclose to him with the accurate term, his mystification of this lengthy limerence and puzzlement of my in and out of LC/NC would be clarified; nothing else would happen.
As a Sensor LO, I would NOT boost his vanity with that pleasure; as a platonic, substantial friend I hope for, such a truth should not be continually “hidden.” What do you think?
It was perhaps the beginning of slipping into limerence during my mourning for father’s death, 8 months after the glimmer. I was sensing “a mountain out of a molehill” — out of LO’s genuine sympathy and condolence, which anyone could have given to me during that dark time (LO also lost his father in his 20s due to a fatal illness). But no one else had given me the glimmer 8 months prior.
Of course, he has the poem and another unique gift as my gratitude for his daily consoling words as I was going through the whole bury ritual in my COO land for over a month.
One should be grateful to a kind deed, even if it was not intended or was conducted incidentally by a “bad” person — that’s one of ethics I was brought up with.
********
A few syllables
Genuine kind words
even just a couple
marked the distinction of day and night
to someone who
had suddenly been pulled onto
the threshold of death
peeked into its abyss,
felt, for a moment of eternity
nothing on this side of the door knob
had any color or pulse left …
Profound understanding,
Insightful sharing of
the unbearable pain of
one’s biggest earthly loss
kindled a spark or two
in the black stillness of
this daunting, haunting mystery
gently lifted up
the frail string of
a sunken soul in limbo…
January 19, 2018
I just remembered that I still went to that party, and met my next LO. This time, his eye contact told me true; I asked *him* out and we became a thing for a while. So live and learn how to read body language more accurately.
Snowphoenix,
From what I understand DrL, the difference between healthy love and limerence is: the former do not Desire reciprocation; the latter carve for it, especially emotional one.
Not sure where you read that. Everyone wants reciprocation. There has to be reciprocation to have a relationship. To me, healthy love is two people who want to be together and are mutally into each other.
Unhealthy … is limerence. I use the word limerence when it turns dark. There’s a barrier and so things never move forward and one person becomes fixated and obsessed and holds onto crumbs from the other person instead of moving on to someone who reciprocates and wants to be with them.
@Marcia
“Tennov differentiates between limerence and other emotions by asserting that love involves concern for the other person’s welfare and feeling. While limerence does not require it, those concerns may certainly be incorporated. Affection and fondness exist only as a disposition towards another person, irrespective of whether those feelings are reciprocated, whereas limerence deeply desires reciprocation, but it remains unaltered whether or not it is returned. “.
This is quote from Wikipedia under “Limerence”.
I also read from LwL or Wiki that compares “unrequited love” with limerence’s; the former is healthy — just to love other side that is unavailable and then they move on; the latter is addictive CRAVING —not just WISHING (huge gap in intensity) for reciprocation; they remain stuck even when a barrier is unconquerable.
The example of unrequited love I have is Quasimodo’s love for Esmeralda — the barrier is his social status and appearance. He chooses to die with her by laying down next to her died body.
“Nicky Hayes describes limerence as “a kind of infatuated, all-absorbing passion” which is unrequited. Tennov equated it to the type of love Dante felt towards Beatrice—an individual he met twice in his life and who served as inspiration for La Vita Nuova and the Divine Comedy.”
Without Dante’s limerence for Beatrice, the world would never have had “Divine Comedy”.
“A famous literary example of limerence is provided by the unrequited love of Werther for Charlotte in the novel The Sorrows of Young Werther by Goethe”. It’s based on the true limerence story of Goethe himself. Instead of being destroyed, he wrote “Sorrows of Young Werther”.
One can use the power of limerence to create literary or artistic masterpieces! In these situations, limerence turns to “unrequited love” or transcends to some great creative works.
Wikipedia —
“Unrequited love has long been depicted as noble, an unselfish and stoic willingness to accept suffering. Literary and artistic depictions of unrequited love may depend on assumptions of social distance that have less relevance in western, democratic societies with relatively high social mobility and less rigid codes of sexual fidelity. Nonetheless, the literary record suggests a degree of euphoria in the feelings associated with unrequited love, which has the advantage as well of carrying none of the responsibilities of mutual relationships: certainly, “rejection, apparent or real, may be the catalyst for inspired literary creation… ‘the poetry of frustration’.”
“Eric Berne considered that “the man who is loved by a woman is lucky indeed, but the one to be envied is he who loves, however little he gets in return. How much greater is Dante gazing at Beatrice than Beatrice walking by him in apparent disdain”.
“According to Robert B. Pippin, Proust claimed that ‘the only successful (sustainable) love is unrequited love’, something which according to Pippin, ‘has been invoked as a figure for the condition of modernity itself’.”
I just read these descriptions, very interesting!
Speaking for myself who did not grow up in the West, when I felt love for LO, without expecting much back in return, I was happier. Pain or anxiety came from unreturned expectations, however small they were, e.g. a timely message reply.
Snowphoenix,
“One can use the power of limerence to create literary or artistic masterpieces! In these situations, limerence turns to “unrequited love” or transcends to some great creative works.”
Unless the “creative work” can sell enough copies that I can earn enough money to never work again and do whatever the hell I want for the rest of my time on this planet… I’ll pass on the limerence. 🙂 Or the unrequited love. Or whatever you want to call it. Both pretty painful. And a waste of time, something I no longer have in abundance.
Quasimodo’s love for Esmeralda is healthy unrequited love, because he chose to end his own life because she died?
Cannot second that, for me it‘s sick. Putting another person so highly over your own well-being and life is certainly not healthy and isn’t unrequited love but some disorder (as I told, I‘m not familiar with expert terms)and obsession, quite a burden for the love object.
Also, I don’t like young Werther. He‘s self-indulgent, whiny and in his way egotistical.
To me there is a stark difference in unrequited love and limerence. Probably because I have experienced them both.
Back in my 20’s before meeting my wife, there was a young lady that went to church with me. I had grown up with her since she started coming to our church when I was around 12-13. But one day she came into church and all of sudden she was not the girl I knew, she was this beautiful young lady. I was head over heels in love with her. I tried my hardest to get her attention. Lavishing her with gifts, attention, special treatment. Anything to get her to know how I felt about her. It went on for a few months before she let me know she was not interested and only saw us as friends. And honestly I think she held out to enjoy the attention before making her feelings known.
I got over her fairly quick. I changed bible study classes so as to only see her one time a week on Sunday service. Some gin and Air Supply and a few tears and I got over her. I still treated her as a friend and pretty soon changed back to the same bible study classes as her. It was a heart breaking part of my life. Eventually we both moved on with our lives and I don’t see her anymore. I remember her now and then and it makes me smile. She was a wonderful young lady and I am glad to have been in her life as much as I was.
Limerence not so much. I think I could have lived without this experience. When I think of her it is not so much a pleasant experience. Because while she was nothing but a good person the limerence itself has soured that whole part of my life, that I am still reeling from now.
I think as long as the unrequited love isn’t too obsessive like The Hunchback of Notre Dame it can be a positive life experience. It taught me what out dear Marica says quite often (and Nisor too I believe) you shouldn’t have to chase love down. Love should come to you if the person feels the same as you do. There should be little to no uncertainty if someone genuinely cares about you.
@ Marcia,
“Unless the “creative work” can sell enough copies that I can earn enough money to never work again and do whatever the hell I want for the rest of my time on this planet… ”
If not taking effort to create them and having them finished, how do we know if it’s going to sell? Are creative work aim for sell or artistic creation itself? Isn’t monetary profit a positive side effect of creating? How many pieces of Van Gosh were sold when he was alive? Did he stop?
Creative work is based on reality need or create a new reality? Steve Jobs’ invention of Apple phone?
“I’ll pass on the limerence. 🙂 Or the unrequited love. Or whatever you want to call it. Both pretty painful. And a waste of time”
No one wanted or planned to get limerence of unrequited love, but they happen naturally throughout history when barriers are insurmountable. They are both painful, but hard to get rid of; then what should sufferers do with it? Stuck in misery or commit a suicide, or transfer/transcend the suffering to creative/artistic work, that may possibly profit?
It’s said that Dante only saw Beatrice twice in his entire life — a life time NC, but he channeled his limerence to his writing, and left us lasting literary masterpiece.
The process of creating is quite therapeutic, fulfilling and occasionally euphoric, like runner’s high. Haven’t you the experienced it?
@Mila, @Adam
“Quasimodo’s love for Esmeralda is healthy unrequited love, because he chose to end his own life because she died?
Cannot second that, for me it‘s sick. Putting another person so highly over your own well-being and life is certainly not healthy and isn’t unrequited love but some disorder ”
@Mila: please forgive me to ask: did you actually read “Hunchback of Notre Dame” and “see” how Quasimodo selflessly, joyfully loved Esmeralda without expecting anything back and tried his heroic acts to protect her first from being raped by the hypercritical, evil clergyman and then save her from death sentenced by the unjustified legal system?
In the entire novel, no one ever liked Quasimodo including his own mother, due to his extreme physical deformity. Only Esmeralda (scared and suspicious of him at beginning) ever showed him kindness by giving him some water (as he was bearing a physical punishment under the scotch Sun) after he begged repeatedly, while others were just mocking at his ugliness and suffering in public.
Later they become “friends” while she was hiding in the church and chatted with him and he guarded her day and night from the clergymen’s possible lusty attacks.
When Esmeralda died of injustice, Quasimodo was sad to no end; then he chose to die with his beloved with a contentment, not misery, on his face — better to die for his beloved than continue his miserable existence. He’s the biggest hero, for his unquieted love and heroic deeds, in this Hugo’s masterpiece.
“Also, I don’t like young Werther. He‘s self-indulgent, whiny and in his way egotistical.”
Are we discussing limerence and unrequited love or judging a fictional limerent’s personality? Do limerents of “being self-indulgent, whiny, or egotistical” deserve to suffer more or less of limerence or are these characteristic also a part of limerence’s nature? Are any of us here completely free of those traits?
The true “Werther” in life, Goethe himself with his unrequited love for Charlotte, did not kill himself but went on to write the painful experience, which brought him the worldwide fame, mocking or glorifying romanticism through idle Werther’s extreme act? That book caused a trend of European young men committing a suicide after their unquieted, romantic love — indeed stupid!
Quasimodo is totally different fictional figure from Werther!
“Do limerents of “being self-indulgent, whiny, or egotistical” deserve to suffer more or less of limerence or are these characteristic also a part of limerence’s nature? Are any of us here completely free of those traits?”
Oooooh Weeee,
I’m definitely NOT!!
Snowphoenix, I answered in the wrong place again, sorry🙄
Snowphoenix,
“They are both painful, but hard to get rid of; then what should sufferers do with it? ”
Work at getting rid of it. Certainly not easy. Not easy at all. And if doing some creative work helps, sure. Although I think it may just prolong the limerence because the limerent is focusing on the LO when doing the creating.
“It’s said that Dante only saw Beatrice twice in his entire life — a life time NC, but he channeled his limerence to his writing, and left us lasting literary masterpiece.”
But was he miserable his whole life? Fixating on a woman he barely knew?
Adam,
“Limerence not so much. I think I could have lived without this experience.”
I think what you’re describing with the woman at church is more like a crush. I’ve had those, too, and gotten over them pretty quickly.
Whereas limerence just hung on.
“if doing some creative work helps, sure. Although I think it may just prolong the limerence because the limerent is focusing on the LO when doing the creating.”
Not FOCUS on LO. During the creating process, limerent focuses on the creation itself, with LO in mind serving as a muse — a creative source, not the source of limerent pain anymore. The creator could even go on leading an ordinary life while still keeping this idealized LO in the head as an icon —— a realistically unreachable spirit. That’s what happened with my own scribbling.
“But was he miserable his whole life? Fixating on a woman he barely knew?”
Not fixating on realistic, unavailable Beatrice, but having her idealized “image” living in his head as the muse of his artistic, creative process. His limerence has transcended into this artistic creation — no more craving of any kind from eternal unavailable LO. The same goes with Goethe’s limerence changing into the creation of “the Sorrow of Werther”.
When inspired or urged to scribble on a few lines of lyric for hours or a couple of days, I never felt lonely, or desirous for anyone or anything else, including necessary meals. Creating itself is so energizing and fulfilling once a piece is completed.
Snowphoenix,
“The creator could even go on leading an ordinary life while still keeping this idealized LO in the head as an icon”
I mean, whatever works for you. But I don’t want any kind of idealized LO in my head. I don’t want any LO in my head at all. Ultimately, my LO was a man who didn’t want me. It’s hard to reconcile that with any idealization.
I’ve had LOs all my life (I didn’t understand that, of course, until recently), but they all fell to Earth eventually. Even the famous ones from my adolescence. 🙂 They all do something screwy eventually.
@Snowphoenix.
“Not fixating on realistic, unavailable Beatrice, but having her idealized “image” living in his head as the muse of his artistic, creative process. His limerence has transcended into this artistic creation — no more craving of any kind from eternal unavailable LO. The same goes with Goethe’s limerence changing into the creation of “the Sorrow of Werther”.”
I think Dante’s relationship with Beatrice was/is fascinating. How was Dante’s relationship with Beatrice fascinating? It was fascinating because, according to the historical records, Dante only met Beatrice twice. And apparently Beatrice died shortly after the second meeting…
In other words, whoever Dante was writing about in all his glorious poetry wasn’t the historical Beatrice. Dante didn’t know the historical Beatrice well enough to write about her. Dante was writing about his IDEA of Beatrice, his VISION of Beatrice. He was writing about his idea of a woman who lived only inside his own head. Very likely, Dante was writing poetry about some part of himself projected onto the historical Beatrice.
I’m not saying Dante did anything wrong. He probably did eventually transcend his obsession with the (long-deceased) Beatrice by writing about her. Maybe writing about Beatrice was the healthiest thing Dante could do. All in all, I think artistic creations inspired by LOs can be good if it’s a way to let go of LO, not a way to cling eternally to LO. But the line between the two things can be very fine.
@Marcia,
“I mean, whatever works for you.”
I’m still exploring different means that would work for me ultimately.
“But I don’t want any kind of idealized LO in my head. I don’t want any LO in my head at all. Ultimately, my LO was a man who didn’t want me. It’s hard to reconcile that with any idealization.”
I don’t want to realistic LO in my head since he did the same thing your LO did to you, which I still can’t reconcile painfully at this moment of responding to you. The only means to distracting myself seems to engage my mind in intellectualizing what’s hurting me — isn’t it ironic!?
Stoicism of focusing on what’s in control under oneself and what’s uncontrollable in others is so hard to practice and to be firmly grounded in one’s wishful, fanciful limerent’s brain. I so want to ACT not to React…
All my previous LOs are in my head remotely, affecting little in any aspects of my life, let alone to inspire me to explore anything new….
@Sammy,
“In other words, whoever Dante was writing about in all his glorious poetry wasn’t the historical Beatrice. Dante didn’t know the historical Beatrice well enough to write about her. Dante was writing about his IDEA of Beatrice, his VISION of Beatrice. He was writing about his idea of a woman who lived only inside his own head. Very likely, Dante was writing poetry about some part of himself projected onto the historical Beatrice.”
You just nailed here the process of creativity inspired by an idealized version of LO — the idea or an imagination of LO. Therefore, the less authors knows realistic LO, the better! They can have more free room to let their imagination fly of the sky; no reality could refute or deny whatever they imagine and create.
Goethe did write about his LO, Charlotte, and his limerence with her in “Sorrow of Werther”, which also made him worldwide famous. He probably knew Charlotte better than Dante Beatrice; nevertheless, it’s was just a short period of courtship; so his portrait of her is also glorified. She sounds so pretty, kind, pure….
“I’m not saying Dante did anything wrong. He probably did eventually transcend his obsession with the (long-deceased) Beatrice by writing about her. Maybe writing about Beatrice was the healthiest thing Dante could do. “
I’m not sure how much Dante was obsessed with Beatrice after just two brief encounters, but she certainly set off the glimmer in his limerent mind. Then through his imagination, her ideal image “guided” his creation as the instinctual muse. For Dante, whether she’s alive socially unavailable or dead was not the main concern; the magic was that she already entered his head as a “goddess” that enlivened his entire being and fueled his creative libido.
“All in all, I think artistic creations inspired by LOs can be good if it’s a way to let go of LO, not a way to cling eternally to LO. But the line between the two things can be very fine.”
Inspiration is not from realistic LO, who is always flawed or disappointing. The creators need, I believe (in my case), to use the phantom of LO to fuse and muse their creation which would “let go of” realistic LO. George Sand once said to Alfred de Musset something like, Writing out one’s love is the only way to kill it (or to kill half of it)”, I guess, because one has intellectualized love thus emotionally distanced oneself from it.
Back in April while announcing LC to LO in person, he said something like, “You don’t really know me”. I immediately answered, “the less I know, the better with my mind”…. He was puzzled and I, too. I was ignorantly referring to the fantasied Phantom in my head, who had “met” all my limerent wises and who was finally severed by my dream from the realistic, sensor LO — I felt very sad after that dream, but my unconscious seemed to know better what to do.
Then I added, “whatever I am doing with my messages does not need your responses anyway.” — his scanty replies disappointed my expectations almost without any emotional reciprocation. So I was mostly limerent for the idealized Phantom in my head in the past 6 years. Separating the two in reality caused my dizziness and surreal sensation, particularly in the past year when I perceived him having “betrayed” my little requited limerence — I don’t think he knows the concept yet.
I really believe that a creator needs an idealized LO to serve as a muse, not LO in reality.
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you for clarifying the artist-muse relationship for me! I have always wondered about this relationship, but haven’t been able to put it into words. 😛
“Therefore, the less authors knows realistic LO, the better!”
“.. the magic [for Dante] was that she already entered his head as a “goddess” that enlivened his entire being and fueled his creative libido.”
“Inspiration is not from realistic LO, who is always flawed or disappointing.”
“I really believe that a creator needs an idealized LO to serve as a muse, not LO in reality.”
On the one hand, I felt as if I did know my LO. On the other hand, I also felt as if there was “more to him” and he couldn’t/wouldn’t show me what that “more” was. In reality, there may have been more to him or there may not have been more to him. Either way, as a creative person, my imagination strove to “fill in the blanks”. 😉
Snowphoenix,
“All my previous LOs are in my head remotely, affecting little in any aspects of my life, let alone to inspire me to explore anything new….”
Mine are the same. I have no feelings at all for my previous LOs, with the exception of the last one, who I am mostly over minus some residual feelings of anger.
Great quote from Nietzche: “Ultimately, it is the desire, not the desired, that we love.”
So darn true! 🙂
With current LO it’s more than just eye contact….But I can recall a guy in college who I was convinced was in love with me. We had the same on-campus job, different shifts, and would pass each other often outside. He’d always glance at me. I got intrigued, learned his name from his time card. The following year we both had a different on-campus job, and now we actually worked together–my chance at last! Got to know him better! Liked him! Asked him to a party! And–he turned me down. Dang it. (Though at least I tried, I guess.)
It’s good that you tried, yes. But that was my point — it’s just impossible to know until the rubber meets the road, so to speak.
Argh! Looks like I put my reply in the wrong place. Trying to figure out this comment system….
Snowphoenix,
I have to admit that it‘s very long ago that I read both books. You certainly know more.
Unfortunately, your retelling of the Quasimodo story doesn’t convince me either. He loved her just because she was the only person who showed him kindness. So she was mother, father, god, siblings, friends, children, all of them in one person for him. It‘s surely not an example of common unrequited love. I still say, it doesn’t sound like healthy love between adults, unrequited or not.
My comment on Werther was maybe misunderstandable. Of course I judged his personality, what else? He might have been limerent, I still didn’t like him;) and I can’t remember any moment where I felt some irony or criticism behind it. Sure, I‘m egotistical, self-indulgent and whiny myself from time to time. But I call myself out on it.
I just react a bit allergic on some kind of mystifying and romanticizing without any self-criticism. Which might be a trait of limerence, but one I really try to avoid.
@Mila,
Quasimodo loved beautiful Esmeralda as a man woman, like several other male characters, including the clergyman, in the story. To him, she’s a “goddess” with a kind heart, not Mother, father, sister, etc. He kept saying to her directly, “You’re so beautiful… you’re so beautiful..” or covered his face or stayed in distance, “I’m so ugly. Don’t be frightened….” “Here is the whistle, call me any time if you need”… He just wanted to do something nice for her or anything she needed, particularly protect as a street Egyptian dancer — illegal at the time.
Perhaps it’s time to revisit the book or the movie (there are many versions). It’s very touching….
I know during my LE I was often self-indulgent, whiny, or egotistical” helplessly expecting or idiotically thinking I should and could get LO’s attention, admiration, and emotional reciprocation, as if I were a princess or an unicorn… all because of some mysterious gaze, pleasant manner, kindness to help, and a few friendly, platonic rendezvous…. Limerence could indeed make us all a lunatic at some points…
My point is that regardless what sorts of personality each has, all limerents suffer limerence; romantic souls probably more due to their a higher dose of fantasies or illusions. However, they may also have more “tricks” to transfer or transcend limerence to some forms of creativities. Whatever works for them in reducing their limerence pains is fine, who am I to judge their words or deeds?
Reality exists in each mind within, not without.
Snowphoenix,
I think we will never be of one mind on Quasimodo, at least not until I reread the book, because what you wrote doesn’t convince me 😉 „goddess“, putting her on a pedestal because she‘s more beautiful than him, I don’t know, still sounds maybe like limerence, but not mature love. Maybe we just have different views of healthy love.
Well, maybe I’m not in the right place here at the moment, I feel. (Not because of our discussion, Snowphoenix, I rather enjoy that!)
I feel that I‘m overcoming my LE, and that is a kind of terse, realistic feeling. At the moment I need to stop the romantic, indulgent, yearning thoughts and get down to earth, to my family, my life.
This here has some dreamlike feeling about it, and nobody seems to be in my phase of waking up from the limerence…
Maybe I should take a break for a bit, like Adam!
@Mila,
Take a good break and watch the movie!
My best wishes to your peace of mind over LE.
My meditation, more than my romanticism, helps me most to reduce intensity of LE pains and rumination of any kind, clear my stuffed and racing mind, and obtain not just peace, but also joy with no particular reasons…
Snowphoenix,
I definitely won’t watch the film in my current state of mind;)
Thank you for your wishes!
I‘ve not yet decided if I‘ll really stay away. I just go from day to day… we all have our different ways of coping, and they seem to differ from day to day in my case…
@Sammy,
“On the one hand, I felt as if I did know my LO. On the other hand, I also felt as if there was “more to him” and he couldn’t/wouldn’t show me what that “more” was. In reality, there may have been more to him or there may not have been more to him. Either way, as a creative person, my imagination strove to “fill in the blanks”. 😉”
You just described my feelings for my LO 100% accurately! Sometime I was also afraid to know “more to him”, eg. PA, for fearing it would destroy my imagination — keep the desire alive by loving it but not having it fulfilled. Otherwise, we may fall into Nietzsche’s“indifference” or Schopenhauer’s “boredom”. 😒
Correction: actually, I still don’t know much about my LO, because he just kept smiling if I asked him some questions about his thoughts and feelings. I always had feelings that there are much more to him… but he said he would not share with others except his SO, which alone alienated me and made me feel very lonely….
So, it’s better to conjure up the Phantom of LO, whom I can “paint” anyway I want.
Interesting read, thanks! I think the main problem is the uncertainty after eye contact which really adds to the LE. Since I shared this story with DrL I discovered about MBTI (INFJ here yes thank you). Im guessing for various reasons my LO is INTJ. Now I have read these types are prone to more intensive staring. Which then tells me nothing about LO’s actual motives. But the eye contact feels like the deep connection I experienced when the glimmer started, and it pulls me back in.
In my case, NC is not an option: we share office space and when I am there, she can just be around the corner. Her eyes are like magnets. My main option now is LC as much as possible, deprogram and reinforce purposefull living, and hope the effect decreases with time, as disclosure is not an option and neither is leaving.
Had LO never noticed my stare, I would not be in the LE I am today. Not only did I sense something magical in her eyes, I still swear to this day, I can almost see forever in them. Maybe her gaze was sometime un-assuming or indifference but she has a way of looking at me like she’s looking into my soul. It’s almost eery but dopamine rushing at the same time. I love it.. I was and still am confused because it has always been difficult to call it for what it is.
Probably nothing though since she never reached out anyway, and I’ll be forever languishing over doing nothing about it.
Quote for this week:
“Never beg for love
Never beg someone to be with you.
Never beg for attention, commitment, affection, time and effort.
Never beg someone to come back or stay.
You should never have to ask to feel wanted,
begging is demanding and degrading.
If someone doesn’t willingly give you these things,
with their arms wide open, they aren’t worth it.
No one, under any circumstances, is ever worth
begging for.”
Love thyself most of all you loving Limerents!
This is most definitely true! I think back to some humiliating memories of debasing myself because of a guy. It’s much better to have memories of yourself being graceful and dignified. If you have to beg for it, it’s worthless.
For this reason I’ve been working on other ways to get the SO to give more affection to me willingly without having to beg. There have been fits and starts but it’s starting to work finally.
That is all so very true Nisor. But count me in as one who still doesn’t want the limerence to ever go away.
Sick, sick and pathetic Man I am..
In this 21st century of technology, with the lack of actual face to face human contact, it is easy to see more in something than is there. Lots of contact for people in general is electronic. Phone calls, texts, emails, Zoom (which isn’t in person even though you see them) communication.
It might be quite easy to get lost in the eyes of a beautiful person. And I mean that in both senses. Both beautiful eyes and just a beautiful person that is a joy to talk to.
Even at home it’s surprising how much talk with our boys or between my wife and I and from two different rooms. Or either of us are on a phone or laptop and we forget to take the time to look up at each other when we talk. Our sons (and their generation in general) have grown up with all this. We had a pandemic that made almost an entire school year electronic.
I think it is that eye contact is precious and we take it for granted day to day. Someone making the effort to look into your eyes when you speak to them, is really quite a compliment. Morgan has very pretty green eyes. Momma’s a so dark of a brown they almost look black.
Remembering reading this blog post I made an effort to sit with Momma last night while we watched something on TV, when I wanted to talk to her. Look her in the eye and speak. It helps she reads my lips due to her hard of hearing but it was WOW just looking at her eyes. Actually I think she almost had to shoo me away and tell me to go to bed cause it was getting late lol
Has anyone on LWL called out their LO on their eye contact ?
I would love to know how conscious he is of it and how many others has LO cast a spell on with his eyes ?
And following R’s comment above, interesting to know if high percentage of eye glimmering LOs are INTJ !!
I haven’t. But if I eventually do get the balls to confront LO, it’s going to be probably one of the very first questions I ask her..
One of my past LO’s actually came out and told me he hypnotized me, and his eye contact was mesmerizing, so–yeah.
I’ve also seen the “glimmer” in the eyes of various LO’s. Some I dated, and that made it obvious; some not. One in particular I remember, and I know that was a true glimmer because two friends told me he had a thing for me.
Hm. Calling a LO out on eyecontact would be disclosing, or almost disclosing, or at least flirting heavily.
I mean, he/she is just looking at you. If you react strongly to it, then it‘s not some magic he/she weaves, but something inside yourself that reacts. There always two people to an eye contact. If there wouldn’t be something inside you that reads lots of things into this eye contact, it would just be a person staring at you.
And if you ask this person if he/she „casts this spell“ on others- that‘s already heavily interpreted and really just sounds like flirting in a very obvious way.
Sorry. Feeling even blunter than yesterday🙈
With my LEs, eye contact was of course driving limerence…Romance without eye contact, how should that happen? It‘s an important ingredient. Dr L described the mechanism quite well..
Still, I enjoy eye contact with quite a lot of people in my job, it does make working more pleasant and is good for the working relationship without any romantic undertones, just warm personal feeling-„I’m here, I see you,hello“.
Hi Mila, I like blunt Mila. My LO is somewhat intense and does do strong eye contact generally. There is a photo of him in which he really does have intense eyes right down the camera lens. If I showed you it – you would say yep you are totally right ! Like R said I do think some people do this more than others either consciously or unconsciously. I am sure some use it as a tool! My LO – I’m not sure if it’s their personality type or narc (nice narc). I am not big on staring and tend to follow social etiquette on eye contact and break sooner than most. In the past if I had a creepy guy staring at me I would sometimes confront them with a big stare face myself , eyes wide open, no blinking, blank expression and confrontational body stance. To let them know to back off and I am not submissive type.
To end on a lighter note, there is a senior guy at work who winks at me ( and others no doubt)! Seriously ….. what decade are we in ?
Hi IMHO,
yes I‘m sure there are some persons who have very expressive eyes and know about it. While my first two LOs and my SO have beautiful eyes, my current LO‘s best feature are not his eyes. Still, he is able to maintain a long unwavering eye contact that is by no means purposely intense, he is without any tricks or guiles, but is kind of unsettling because he doesn’t seem to feel self-conscious at all, being at peace with himself.
Winking is in my experience (I’m kind of senior, maybe that’s why?:) often just meant nicely, like „cheer up“. Nothing too flirtatious about it, but depends on the context, I guess.
@Mila.
“I mean, he/she is just looking at you. If you react strongly to it, then it‘s not some magic he/she weaves, but something inside yourself that reacts. There always two people to an eye contact. If there wouldn’t be something inside you that reads lots of things into this eye contact, it would just be a person staring at you.
And if you ask this person if he/she „casts this spell“ on others- that‘s already heavily interpreted and really just sounds like flirting in a very obvious way.
Sorry. Feeling even blunter than yesterday🙈”
I think you’re onto something. I feel the problem with LOs is they “cast a spell” over the limerent. If the limerent can find a way not to fall under said spell, then all the behaviour of the LO – including any flirty eye contact – ultimately can’t be harmful, or even in the least bit relevant. LO’s antics then become random human behaviour one just doesn’t think about.
It’s the spell that has been cast that’s the real problem, and not all the little details. One must admit to oneself that one is currently under a metaphorical spell. Or a literal neurochemical spell. 😉
So this coffeehouse is still for any unrelated stuff, too, am I right?
I just realize that I tend to eat too much sweet stuff when I try to quench a LE. I seem unconsciously to seek for another reward or comfort. Alcohol is more for indulging the limerence, but this sweet craving occurs when I‘m stressed, and doing the right thing and getting out of a LE seems to stress me.
I don’t know if that‘s good, i.e. necessary to help me through, or if it is a transference. Next step would be transference to the next LO and I really want to avoid that this time, I want to get off that carrousel.
But I don’t want to get fat either:) and it‘s unhealthy anyway.
I just wonder about the relation between the addictions.
Would that be an interesting subject for a blog post, Dr. L? Or have you already written something, I haven’t read all posts, I think…
” Alcohol is more for indulging the limerence”
Mila
Alcohol for the most part does the opposite for me. As long as I don’t have any other triggers. Which is why when I drink I tend to occupy my mind elsewhere. Like I will play online video games with my boys. If I do listen to music I try to make it neutral music that won’t trigger the limerence. The only thing that might come up with limerence, when drinking, is something that I need to tell my wife that I feel braver to do so with alcohol in my blood than sober.
I feel like I have to correct my own thinking more often sober. Like during the day at work. Trying to maintain my resolution to try and not listen to “that” playlist. And a lot of times at lunch rather than listen to music I will listen/watch some other content on youtube while I eat.
Adam,
Interesting. Alcohol will do some kind of distracting and numbing the limerence for you, while for me it relaxes me and my guard against limerence.
I don’t drink much I have to say.
Sweets are more of a problem, they give instant soothing of some need.
When fighting limerence I don’t listen to music that might remind me of him, it‘s pure poison. Then I prefer bad-ass and uplifting stuff. Music is a dangerous tool in creating moods.
Hi Mila… coming out of intensity of LE ( hoping I am) certainly craving chocolate much more. It’s comforting because it releases dopamine. To avoid getting fat I recommend to eat high % dark chocolate as you tend to eat less.
Alcohol numbs the mind and I’m sure some limerents indulge to lesser the ruminations. ( hands up LwL ?!) alcohol in presence of LO lowers inhibitions and more likely to leak feelings, desires. Been there.
Some addiction analagies in this post :-
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-is-limerence-so-addictive/
IMHO,
Thank you very much, I hadn’t read this blog post!
“So this coffeehouse is still for any unrelated stuff, too, am I right?
I just realize that I tend to eat too much sweet stuff when I try to quench a LE. I seem unconsciously to seek for another reward or comfort. Alcohol is more for indulging the limerence, but this sweet craving occurs when I‘m stressed, and doing the right thing and getting out of a LE seems to stress me.”
@Mila.
I go in the opposite direction to you, at least in terms of sugar. When I’m limerent, I don’t have the desire to eat sweet food. I eat very little due to suppressed appetite and enjoy very strange, very bitter flavours such as the darkest of dark chocolate. In other words, addiction to LO displaces other addictions. When I’m not “high on ecstasy from an LO”, I revert to wanting to eating sugar in large quantities, and I avoid strange and bitter flavours. I guess my palate returns to normal. 😉
I did drink and smoke (for the first time in my life) as a direct result of limerence. But that was purely an attempt to control my mood swings. Out of limerence, I don’t drink or smoke, and don’t see the rewarding aspect of either so-called “reward”. My body just doesn’t crave that level of artificial stimulation. 🤔
Sammy,
It’s not that different, only a bit.. I get the sugar craving when limerence starts to become a struggle. My body tries to displace the LO addiction by my sugar addiction. (Which is also there when I‘m not limerent, unfortunately it‘s a stress reliever for me).
When I’m in the heights of dreamy limerence I don’t need the sugar, it starts when it gets painful and dreary and I try to stop it. And it’s also to control the mood swings .
It‘s interesting about the strange and bitter flavors, that you enjoyed during limerence, though. I didn’t have that.
Mila,
“It’s not that different, only a bit.. I get the sugar craving when limerence starts to become a struggle. My body tries to displace the LO addiction by my sugar addiction. (Which is also there when I‘m not limerent, unfortunately it‘s a stress reliever for me).”
I’m the same way. Once I started to come to terms with the fact that nothing was really going to happen with my LO (which was a huge disappointment), I started to eat a lot more junk food, particulary cookies and cakes. I don’t really like the taste of alcohol and I don’t have access to drugs (kind of wish I did, I’d be thinner :)) … so it was food. Intellectually, I know I’m grabbing the food to compensate, but I have trouble stopping myself. I can do it, but I feel like I’m white knuckling it and it’s hard and I’m miserable. The solution is the same as it is for limerence … drum roll, please … purposeful living. 🙂 I’m working on it. 🙂
Marcia,
You are so right, I also know that purposeful living would be the answer to both addictions. Says me, sitting with chocolate in hand (really! Your comment caught me at the sweets drawer).
My head knows for years, that I should curb the stress-caused sugar intake (luckily or unluckily, my body doesn’t show it yet, but it‘s still unhealthy), but I cannot act on it or only for a certain stretch of time.
I‘m working on it, too.
I think at least I‘ve managed to rein my current LE in!
That‘s worth the 2 kilo more on the ribs
that I gained in the last weeks, I guess.
(Have to check it by meeting LO some time, though. But I‘m not in a hurrying do so.)
*In a hurry to do so
Mila,
“My head knows for years, that I should curb the stress-caused sugar intake”
It’s very hard to do. There is something so luciously glutinous, so deliciously I’m-taking-my-hands-off-the-wheel with no restraint … in eating as much cake as you want! No rules, no regulations, no seat belts! 🙂
Of course, you always regret it the next day, but it’s sure damn great in the moment. 🙂
How could I have forgotten this one…
“The Story In Your Eyes” – The Moody Blues (1971)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1BlD5ZgR-U
I love this song!
It’s part of an odd ritual. I have a ritual where I play “Burning Bridges” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnuuuFVKwmU) by the Mike Curb Congregation three times when I write someone off. LOs 2 & 4 are written off. My wife came within the last playing of “Burning Bridges.”
The only way the ritual can be undone is:
1. We have to be physically present.
2. I have to hear “The Story In Your Eyes” playing in the background.
True for me! It was eye contact that pushed me over the edge from crush to limerence.
“Do limerents of “being self-indulgent, whiny, or egotistical” deserve to suffer more or less of limerence or are these characteristic also a part of limerence’s nature?”
Snowphoniex
If one continues to wallow in the limerence, like many limerents do, myself included at a time, than it is not whether they “deserve” to suffer more; it’s that they factually will. Until one lets go of a limerent episode that has obvious barriers that prevent a relationship from being ideal or only happening except at the cost of other’s suffering, the limerent will suffer too. Even some limerents with no barriers still suffer for as long as they hold on to the limerence. Not even mutual limerence is a sure thing.
It’s like the song lyrics below. You don’t see everything realistically. And when situations don’t pan out the way you’d hoped in your limerent fantasies you suffer. Because “heaven on earth is all you see” not who the real person is and the real situation is. Hence the suffering.
“And your ability to reason is swept away
Oh, heaven on earth is all you see
You’re out of touch with reality”
“Are any of us here completely free of those traits?”
I think (mostly in my case can’t speak for others) limerence happens with the catalyst of situational things, or relationship statuses, depression/anxiety. Something has to pull the trigger on the limerence before it starts. Why we stayed mired in it for as long as we do is the neuroscience that Dr L talks about. But the catalyst I feel is something most limerents could avoid by being more mindful. I know it was in my case.
” better to die for his beloved than continue his miserable existence.”
This is just an in general statement as I have not read The Humchback of Notre Dame, but even that is unhealthy. For one person to mean so much to you that your continued existence is dependent on theirs can’t be good. And this is coming from someone that would rather live a shorter life so I don’t have to die alone. I am more afraid of that than death itself.
LO #2 told me that her greatest fear was to grow old and die alone.
My response to her was that there is nobody that I can’t live without.
I honestly don’t know where that fear comes from. Maybe it was because I’m an only child and both my parents were dead by the time I hit 24.
Hi Adam,
Thank you, this really speaks to me.
You understand what I think about Quasimodo, and you understand my instinctive dislike of romanticizing:
„ If one continues to wallow in the limerence, like many limerents do, myself included at a time, than it is not whether they “deserve” to suffer more; it’s that they factually will. “
And then you surely understand a lot more things than I do.
Thanks particularly for this:
„I think (mostly in my case can’t speak for others) limerence happens with the catalyst of situational things, or relationship statuses, depression/anxiety. Something has to pull the trigger on the limerence before it starts. Why we stayed mired in it for as long as we do is the neuroscience that Dr L talks about. But the catalyst I feel is something most limerents could avoid by being more mindful.“
Bless you and I hope you and DammitHardison are on a good way.
Obviously, my summarization and understanding of a great literary work
Is muddled either due to my subjectivity or my critique skills.
I would never comment on any fictional character if I have not read the book or watched a movie based on the book.
My apology to Victor Hugo!
Snowphoenix,
we were not commenting on Victor Hugo’s book or the film, because it’s too long ago I’ve read/watched them- yes, I did both), we were commenting solely on your own description of Quasimodos love.
I‘m sorry you seem to feel criticized but it must be allowed to have a different opinion.
Yes. I know the comments are on my interpretation of Quasimodo (Q)— the hero of Hugo. But I feel the comments have misinterpreted my understanding of this character, by narrowly speculating his heroic deeds from a limerent’s point of view, and therefore twisted him as a whole (very unfortunate yet noble) human character. He has been standing tall as one of my top heroes since I was 10. My platonic LO#1 resembles Q somewhat — only considered for my welfare.
The book is not focused on Quasimodo’s unrequited love for Esmeralda (just one aspect), but good vs. evil, ugliness vs. beauty, selfishness vs. altruism, and the whole injustice of that society in details. And how people at the bottom of society struggle and suffer just to survive when those hypocrites, including clergymen, on the top explore them in all manners.
Still, in order to have one’s own view or opinion on any literary character, one needs to read its original creation, but not rely on even professional critiques.
Personally, with Quasimodo as a model in my mind (revived more recently), I suffer much less limerence pains, by comparison with some of limerents here. It seems that I expect or crave less from the impossible (or others stuff in life in general), and still get joy and contentment just by emotionally giving more (in my head and in person) than receiving in reality as a return.
**** attaching Wikipedia’s description here —
The Hunchback of Notre-Dame (French: Notre-Dame de Paris, lit. ’Our Lady of Paris’, originally titled Notre-Dame de Paris. 1482) is a French Gothic novel by Victor Hugo, published in 1831. The title refers to the Notre-Dame Cathedral, which features prominently throughout the novel. It focuses on the unfortunate story of Quasimodo, the Roma street dancer Esmeralda and Quasimodo’s guardian the Archdeacon Claude Frollo in 15th-century Paris. All its elements— the Renaissance setting, impossible love affairs and marginalized characters—make the work a model of the literary themes of Romanticism.
@Adam,
“If one continues to wallow in the limerence, like many limerents do, myself included at a time, then it is not whether they “deserve” to suffer more; it’s that they factually will. Until one lets go of a limerent episode that has obvious barriers that prevent a relationship from being ideal or only happening except at the cost of other’s suffering, the limerent will suffer too. “
I totally agree here. The issue is how to “let go of a limerence”, which seems harder than climbing to Mount Everest at times. Some of us have struggled long, some short, some never want to… it all depends on each limerent’s characteristics and wish/will.
“Even some limerents with no barriers still suffer for as long as they hold on to the limerence. Not even mutual limerence is a sure thing.”
Based on Tunnov and Dr.L, with no barriers or mutual limerence would NOT lead to limerence, because UNCERTAINTY is absent. I married non-limerent LO #4, and limerence went away in 3 days, and replaced by eye-opening, harsh reality that was previously missed during my limerence. We tried to amend and better the marriage, but did not work out.
“It’s like the song lyrics below. You don’t see everything realistically. And when situations don’t pan out the way you’d hoped in your limerent fantasies you suffer. Because “heaven on earth is all you see” not who the real person is and the real situation is. Hence the suffering.”
Not quite my case. I saw the reality at the beginning, I saw the real person after 1 year, I saw heaven and earth co-existed on earth (the default of human existence), I separated the reality with my fantasies and just enjoyed the latter for its delight, I knew I could not get much but still felt somewhat content…. It’s like knowing in a dead end, but could not or did not want to move my feet — the dreamy dead end was still better than my previous depression!
I was not even a Quasimodo in the dynamic, since LO declared he wanted or needed nothing from me (he changed his mind later — wanting and holding onto a ‘friendship”). So I can only blame my addictive neurochemicals for my LE.
“I think (mostly in my case can’t speak for others) limerence happens with the catalyst of situational things, or relationship statuses, depression/anxiety.”
Very true. In my situation it was a breakup and depression.
“ But the catalyst I feel is something most limerents could avoid by being more mindful.”
In theory, it’s true. In my reality, to be seen… I do not trust my own neurochemicals.
“This is just an in general statement as I have not read The Humchback of Notre Dame, but even that is unhealthy.”
I did not and could not in short passages to throughly describe who Quasimodo is and why he choose to die. Please read the book or watch the movie before making any conclusion, it’s not FAIR to a literary character or author.
If in Quasimodo’s shoe, I would have committed a suicide before meeting Esmeralda! Why? — read the book!
Snowphoenix
(I chose this Reply button because I cannot abide the scrolling this early in the morning:))
of course you are right that one should read the book before judging it’s fictional character. But you threw him in the arena with a few describing sentences as a template of exemplary unrequited love. You have to expect comments on that, there is nothing fair or unfair about it. And I’m still sure after your explanations and the summary of Wikipedia that I won’t agree on that after reading the book.
Which I won’t do now because I have a very challenging time to finish and because it‘s all not that relevant for me at the moment.
What I do agree on is that a dose of giving instead of always expecting to get something is a healthy part of love and that it can help easing the limerence and turning it into a somewhat nobler feeling.
I meant „tome“ not „time“
“Based on Tunnov and Dr.L, with no barriers or mutual limerence would NOT lead to limerence, because UNCERTAINTY is absent.”
What I mean is mutual limerence isn’t even a guarantee because even if two limerents enter a relationship with day to day life the limerence will fade to a degree, like the “honeymoon faze”, and maybe they will find that they aren’t compatible. 23 years together and this limerence made me wonder if we are still compatible together.
I feel like so few people find the happy ending in limerence like Dr L, that it seems a bad foundation on which to build a relationship. I didn’t have limerence for my wife. No crush. No “head over heels” in love. Our relationship started as a friendship. And while it started online, she got me through some hard times by being there for me. Talking to me. Listening to what I had to say. Helping me see the reality of these situations without judgement. I loved HER. Not the idea of her, no idolizing, no pedestal, and certainly no fantasies. I loved her. Wanted to make her happy in life. To help her be a better and healthier person in mind and body. And in turn in many ways she has done that in return to me in the years we’ve been together.
Maybe my limerence has just made be bitter on the idea of it as a positive thing. Maybe because I still struggle in my mind over a year later that I cannot see anything positive out of this limerent episode other than addressing what triggered it so it doesn’t happen again.
Adam,
I was limerent for my SO big style. While it led to some difficulties it also led to our marriage of many years.
While the real stuff, the real material a good relationship is made of is certainly what you describe with your wife (great description!) limerence (mutual, of course) in the beginning is actually a good thing because fond memories of this crazy beginning help you stick together through tough times.
It‘s not always a bad thing as long as it can be reined in before it does too much damage. And it can be a good foundation for a relationship. With the stress on „can“. Doesn’t have to.
Mila I am very glad to hear about another happy ending when it comes to limerence with you and your now spouse. That’s really good to hear. Perhaps these cases will make me less angry and bitter at limerence. But for now, I will have to deal with how I feel.
Adam,
I had a long-term relationship with someone who started out as an LO. I did not have the same experience as Mila. Once the limerence wore off (and it did in a matter of months), I really saw him clearly.
“Our relationship started as a friendship.”
Our relationship became a friendship. Which, I will admit, was a bit of a letdown after the white-hot beginning.
Hi Adam,
Your relationship with your SO is so similar to mine with my SO of 46 years. I was not Limerent for him, no crush, no head over heels, not idealizing, no pedestal and certainly no fantasies. But SO is a real hero to me. A person I admire and respect . I felt comfortable and peaceful with him, secured, protected, cared for from the very start. He had all the qualities and virtues I was looking for in a partner, no pretending, no challenge, no
mysteries. We were both matured and knew what we wanted from each other, it was a tacit agreement, we didn’t need to ask or explain anything, such an easy understanding! I wanted to be a wife and a mother and SO was/is the right partner. We respect and trust each another, the commitment is still going strong. And until death us part.
Have a great evening. Sharing hugs .
@Mila,
“What I do agree on is that a dose of giving instead of always expecting to get something is a healthy part of love and that it can help easing the limerence and turning it into a somewhat nobler feeling.”
The whole point of mentioned “unrequited love” is that those lovers give much out more than expecting something in return, sometimes to the point of inhuman. Who does not like to be on the recipient’s end? For myself, when I found I was expecting less from LO or anything in life, I felt more content, if not giddy.
I don’t advocate suicide or any form of self-destruction for one’s unrequited beloved, but the story of Quasimodo needs to be read in its history context. He’s not just somewhat deformed, which the society could not tolerate but abuse and torture, but he has a monster appearance with a saint heart, and without a magical prince hidden within, like the story of “Beauty and Beast”.
An unrequited love gets less but gives more without reciprocation or possible boredom after total consummation, therefore it seems to last longer. Also those lovers tend to idealize their beloved without enough realistic knowledge of the latter; therefore, they sustain their “blind” unrequited love longer.
I’m not pushing you to read the book or watch the movie — never cartoon versions please! Knowing you limited from LwL, I have a hunch that you’d be touched by the story again.
That’s probably why Proust claims that ‘the only successful (sustainable) love is unrequited love’. And Nietzsche contends that “indispensable…to the lover is his unrequited love, which he would at no price relinquish for a state of indifference.”
Wikipedia —
“In her study Tennov identified three ways in which limerence subsides:
Consummation (reciprocation)
Each limerent has a slightly different view of acceptable reciprocation, and the reactions to reciprocation vary. Some limerents remain limerent (as documented by Tennov), while for others the limerence subsides as the certainty of reciprocity grows. Other limerents do not achieve any “real” consummation (e.g., physical, or in the form of an actual relationship) but find their limerence waning after a limerent object professes similar feelings.”
I know it could be true from my marriage with a non-limerent LO (#4). I want to see in what style of consummation, I could end my current, mild limerence.
“Starvation
In this process, a lack of any notice (i.e., starvation, described by Tennov as “the onslaught of evidence that LO does not return the limerence”) causes the limerent to gradually desensitize. This desensitization may take a long time, in which case a limerent’s latent hypersensitivity may cause any attention given by a former LO, regardless of how slight, to be interpreted as a reason for hope, precipitating a resurgence of limerence.”
I tried but LC/NCs seemed to have strengthened my “unsuited love” for a flawed, ordinary, Sensor LO, since my cptsd minds tend to remember or create “heaven” on earth but forget and forgive all sorts of “hells” in the “edgeless bitter sea” — Buddhism. However one behaves their business, uncontrollable; however I act or react is mine, manageable by body and mind integration.
“Transference
The limerent transfers their romantic feelings to another person, thereby ending the initial limerence; the limerence is sometimes transferred as well.”
Tried on exLO but failed. Might be transferring my “limerence” to LwL — “fighting” for romantic feelings for Unrequited Love… Really hope and will try to transfer it to a piece of creative work.
@Snowphoenix.
I think I have worked out what ended my limerence for good = starvation. 🙄
Basically, after 17 years of strict no contact, there are no more intrusive thoughts and no more fantasies of togetherness. No more dreams. No more nightmares. No more euphoria and no more pain. My mind is completely free of this human being. That’s 17 years between onset of obsession (had to be hospitalised, in my case) and perfect indifference to LO as some kind of super-potent emotional trigger.
Are they hard feelings involved? I’m going to say no, not really. I accept that in some really important ways I didn’t even know my LO. How can I hate someone I barely understood? Are there still feelings which I haven’t explored? Yes, of course. But I’m not sure if there’s any value in exploring these feelings. Maybe just moving on to the next chapter is the way to go?
“Really hope and will try to transfer it to a piece of creative work.”
This is a very interesting idea, and I’m curious about creative works that arise from limerence. In my case, I worked on a personal artistic project. The project was initially about LO, a celebration of romantic love, but turned into a good-natured satire on Australian customs and language.
So I wonder if my true obsession was “Australian-ness” and not my LO? (I’m Australian myself, but never felt like I fit in). I still feel like a bit of an outsider, but I don’t feel “less than” the people around me anymore. I realise maybe “fitting in” was the wrong goal to have and I should just focus on being myself. People seem to like quirky little me anyway. I do wonder, though, if my LO was some kind of national archetype? Did he, for example, embody “the quintessential Aussie male” in my mind? Was he some sort of key I could use to understand an entire way of life? 🤔
They say the best writers/artists are often outsiders. For example, many outstanding commentators on Englishness hail from Ireland! (George Bernard Shaw, Oscar Wilde, etc). Many of the best writers on the American Deep South were women writers, who, by virtue of their sex, were excluded from playing too prominent a role in the culture they portrayed. I wonder what my fascination with Australiana is? To this day, I don’t really know…
Sammy
“I think I have worked out what ended my limerence for good = starvation. “
It seems to be the best, but also hardest way to go. I did it in starvation style with narc LO #3, during one year of which I had ideation of suicide. And with narc #6, which took me a year to calm down the anger, but it was followed by a long period of melancholy, abstinence, and despair.
“Are they hard feelings involved? I’m going to say no, not really.”
With LO #3 and #6, my hard feelings are justifiable! I don’t why I hate hard-core narcs so much; they don’t feel like fleshy, round human beings to me. With other LOs, rare hard feelings.
“I accept that in some really important ways I didn’t even know my LO. How can I hate someone I barely understood?”
Yes, the same here but on an intellectual level. If they had in one way or another, emotionally or mentally mistreated or abused you, then a condemnation of such behaviors are called for.
On other hand, we can never know anyone very well, since we are all in flux, if our states of mind and emotions are counted. There is an idiom: “After three days of farewell, see each other with new eyes/with new admiration” — one grows a lot in 3 days (might be even in 3 hours).
“Are there still feelings which I haven’t explored? Yes, of course. But I’m not sure if there’s any value in exploring these feelings. Maybe just moving on to the next chapter is the way to go?”
The value of exploration is to satisfy our curiosity for another human fellow into whom I once poured our heart, mind and soul. Also, the exploration or further understanding of a good xLO may bring some benefits of understanding life in general. But if it is a bad LO, moving on would be the wisest choice.
“This is a very interesting idea, and I’m curious about creative works that arise from limerence. In my case, I worked on a personal artistic project. The project was initially about LO, a celebration of romantic love, but turned into a good-natured satire on Australian customs and language.”
Any creative work can distract or transfer limerence’s grips, if it is not about LO and that LE. Your good-natured satire is the fruit of your creation out of your LE! I can’t write about LO, since I neither know him enough, nor we ever had romantic interactions — it’s perceived “something” that we both could not even define before I came to LwL. Now I know it’s one-side unrequited limerence, painful to the core!
“So I wonder if my true obsession was “Australian-ness” and not my LO? “
It’s not an “obsession” but your passion for other topics in life. When LE recedes, they will reemerge in our conscious mind again.
“(I’m Australian myself, but never felt like I fit in). I still feel like a bit of an outsider, but I don’t feel “less than” the people around me anymore. I realise maybe “fitting in” was the wrong goal to have and I should just focus on being myself. People seem to like quirky little me anyway. “
“Fitting in” sometimes seem to be necessary; but in a long run, one should and needs to focus on being one’s authentic self, one consequence of which could bring in aloneness or isolation.
“I do wonder, though, if my LO was some kind of national archetype? Did he, for example, embody “the quintessential Aussie male” in my mind? Was he some sort of key I could use to understand an entire way of life? “
During the altered mental state of limerence, LO could appear anything we wished. But after LE, I don’t think any xLO, or anyone else, could come across as “some soft of key” to unlock even a half way of life — life is vast, constantly changing; everyone in it is unique, also helplessly evolving… the life is in infinite flux.
“They say the best writers/artists are often outsiders. “
True, because they tend to observe the whole from outside peeking in, more easily grasping a whole picture of an elephant in the room.
@Snowphoenix.
Well, maybe here is a good place and time to conduct debate three, since we’re encroaching on related territory already…
“Theme three could be: whether limerent and LO could be friends after limerence is long gone; it’s sad if they are unable. Despite its ugly, painful elements, its beautiful, creative power is also amazing if used positively. Again think of those artistic creations throughout our civilization! And what could limerent and LO not forgive each other and amend in order to befriend, after limerence truly becomes peaceful? Life is already short and imperfect enough, why not making it less unfortunate in one area we have already devoted our soul in it?”
First, I would love to argue that limerent and LO can become friends after the storm of limerence has passed. What a beautiful idea!
However, I think this scenario may be more applicable to people who have experienced mutual limerence for one another than a person who experienced one-sided limerence with a non-reciprocating LO.
Couples in mutual limerence might be able to rationalise why things didn’t work out between them e.g. “Oh, we just felt too much passion for each other!” and admit that maybe they work better as friends. There’s less blame to throw around in this scenario, since both parties were probably “skating on thin ice”/taking risks.
I experienced one-sided limerence for my main LO, as far as I know. In purely practical terms, I can’t be friends with him, even if I wished to be, because he has shown no desire to be friends with me, and I think pursuing the matter would be extremely undignified and completely inappropriate. Best never to go there. Friendship is one of those things that require the eager consent of both parties.
As for forgiveness, forgiveness is more of a grey area. One can forgive anyone one likes, and forgiveness can be granted without the knowledge and/or consent of the person being forgiven. I have forgiven my LO. Or, at least, I pompously told someone else they should forgive him (this other person had unrelated grievances).
I would be a terrible hypocrite if I counselled one person to forgive while refusing to practise forgiveness myself. However, I kind of subscribe to the New Age school of forgiveness which teaches that forgiveness is a purely selfish act one does to benefit one’s own mental health. The forgiveness I practise isn’t forgiveness in the traditional Christian sense of the word, which requires some kind of formal admission of wrongdoing/reconciliation between parties. The forgiveness I practise is the wholly self-indulgent kind. 😁
Limerence does seem to evoke some very powerful emotions, particularly when things go awry. Here is my shortlist of strong emotions one might experience:
(1) Betrayal. The limerent feels betrayed by LO. (Feelings of betrayal are common enough for Tennov to deem them noteworthy).
(2) Anger. Intense anger that things didn’t pan out as they were supposed to in one’s mind.
(3) Jealousy. Jealousy is a bit of a tricky one, since people are usually jealous when they fear losing someone/something. If one is in one-sided limerence, one effectively is owed nothing and therefore can lose nothing. Logically, one can’t really be jealous. Logically, all one can feel is ENVY (perhaps of what LO’s partner is believed to possess) masquerading as jealousy.
(4) Ecstasy/euphoria/rapture. Things are going rather well. The “desired relationship” appears to be progressing.
(5) Despair/pain/sadness. LO’s apparent interest is waning. Things aren’t going particularly well. Maybe things are even going backwards?
(6) Shame. One feels undesirable, unworthy of LO’s love. One starts to blame oneself for the dead-end situation.
(7) Guilt. One would possibly like to do naughty things with LO, but one doesn’t know whether LO would be on board with that. Hence, the guilt. Greater guilt is SO/s and/or other cultural barriers are involved.
(8) Hope. Oh dear. The game is on again. LO just winked at me.
(9) Humiliation. One finally admits one has been playing games of Truth or Dare with oneself, performing the tango alone, etc, etc.
(10) Grief. One mourns what one has lost even though one in some cases has objectively lost nothing. One has been standing still in the same spot for years. Essentially, one mourns the death of a dream.
Speaking of artistic creations, and their alleged inspirations, Beatrice and her friends apparently laughed at Dante for his over-the-top feelings for her. Also, Charlotte mocked Goethe for the extravagance of his affections while still being willing to talk to him from time to time. If Goethe’s example is anything to go by, worldwide fame seems to be a dodgy way of winning over LO. But, then again, Goethe isn’t the Father of European Romanticism for nothing. Apparently, some readers enjoy three-hankie weepies. 😉
Sammy,
You say you ended your Limerence through starvation, that after 17 years your mind is completely free of ‘this human being’, also that you had to be hospitalized, etc.
My fear of having a nervousness breakdown if lo (then so), would dump me is what forced me to walk away from the relationship. The knot was so tight, I loved lo so much, but I had to avoid a an awful end , however imaginary. I suffocated the love by going NC (didn’t even know the term ) , and life went on, got married, had children, grandchildren and LO was past history. Or so I thought, UNTIL that dream last year (49 years later) where he came to my “rescue” and all hell broke loose ! Limerence was born and the victory over love past was just a folly! That came to sneer at my very face! And here I am today returning to “three years “ of my past romance where I’m stuck, trapped, and trying hard to get lo out of my mind, again … What is this, some kind of punishment? If so I repent, if someone wants to arrest me please do so. ha 😛
@Sammy
Ok, let’s have a go on Theme Three.
Please bear in mind that I often debate in theory without having experienced all of my points yet, which means if given a chance, I would follow my hypothesis imagined in my theories.
“First, I would love to argue that limerent and LO can become friends after the storm of limerence has passed. What a beautiful idea!”
It would be beautiful indeed. But in most cases, it’s unachievable due to complex human natures. I was a good friend with LO#4 after divorce, but once his 2nd jealousy SO arrived, the friendship became sour and eventually died, which greatly saddened me (I’m still in touch with my ex-in-laws).
I have also tried to befriend with LO #5 (non-glimmered), but we are not emotionally close so seldom see each other. We were never real friends during or after my limerence; it was painful in the former; and neutral in the latter — he sincerely apologized for the pains he had caused in me, and I truly forgave him.
LO #7 is the HUGE question?! He wants to give bare amount of friendship crumbs; I want more, but the barriers are just too many. Also, my wounds are not healed yet; they still hurt while I am not yet out of LE. As Dr L says that inauthentic to hide romantic feelings and pretend it’s just a friendship. I’m not a robot or think like a ChatGPT.
“However, I think this scenario may be more applicable to people who have experienced mutual limerence for one another than a person who experienced one-sided limerence with a non-reciprocating LO.”
In theory, your point sounds very reasonable. But this is the first time I’m experiencing one-sided limerence and is not out yet, so I dont’ know what could and would happen after my LE is gone — I can’t perceive that day’s arrival at this time. 🥺
LO#5 (from a dating app.) and I did not set off glimmer to each other but trauma “bonded” for our separate reasons. Nonetheless, I slipped into limerence, he never did. Yet, he came back for “rebounding” twice and I took him in as a fwb that goes nowhere. We are just too incompatible. So I don’t know how this scenario fit in your point.
“I experienced one-sided limerence for my main LO, as far as I know. In purely practical terms, I can’t be friends with him, even if I wished to be, because he has shown no desire to be friends with me…. Friendship is one of those things that require the eager consent of both parties.”
Absolutely true. Missing a wish from one side, then there is no road to tread on for friendship!
“As for forgiveness, forgiveness is more of a grey area. One can forgive anyone one likes, and forgiveness can be granted without the knowledge and/or consent of the person being forgiven. “
It’s the toughest challenge to forgive one’s “enemy” who have inadvertently or intentionally hurt one — a true forgiveness! A sincere forgiveness should be given without being asked for or being demonstrated to the offender. Forgiveness is for one’s own inner peace, not the other side, who needs to somehow repent their own wrong doings.
“I have forgiven my LO. Or, at least, I pompously told someone else they should forgive him (this other person had unrelated grievances).”
Why “pompously”? What’s wrong to convince others’ such a healthy deed? Did your forgiveness bring you inner peace, joy? I neither forgive nor not-forgive Narc LO #3 and #6. They are out of my mind completely, as if never existed. They were simply not worth of my mental energy for anything.
“I kind of subscribe to the New Age school of forgiveness which teaches that forgiveness is a purely selfish act one does to benefit one’s own mental health.
That’s nonsense! I’m going to have a big debate with you on this point. Take care of and keep one’s own mental health might be the most beneficial thing one could do to oneself and others, as well as the society. If one is “unwell” mentally, not only they are “miserable” themselves, they could (sub)consciously bring their unhappiness or even “harms” to their friends, family and the outer world (Carl Jung scores a big point on this).
Actually, people should be more selfish in taking care of their overall well-being, my COO totally ignores this and advocate impractical selflessness or altruism. I like these two video:
https://youtu.be/-kArjCybqpc?si=CCsCwFXXGh0DmpHk — how to be selfish (to be good selfish)
https://youtu.be/2S_c1gCXjNE?si=m85A6QN7vT0k05r9 — why you should try to be more selfish
Forgiveness is to forgive doers, but not their wrongful deeds for the present or the future! Everyone makes mistakes, whether intentional (murders) or inadvertent (Sensor LO). Still, whether to befriend with them is another matter.
In our relevance, It’s us with our LOs. Ability to forgive them does not foster skills to befriend with them again. The size of the glimmer, the degree of the limerence pains, and our compatibilities with LO all affect post-friendship bonding. I tried with LO#5 with fwb, it is still less than lukewarm, despite we could chat and discuss all sorts of things, besides our current dating affairs, respectively; he seems to worry it would hurt my feelings, and I can’t disclose my LE/LO to anyone else around me, maybe LO himself, who already knows a half of the mystified story.
“The forgiveness I practise is the wholly self-indulgent kind. “
I’m not sure what “wholly self-indulgent kind” forgiveness stands for; for self’s gratification, or a sense of superiority — degrading wrong doers, or what?
Limerence does seem to evoke some very powerful emotions, particularly when things go awry. Here is my shortlist of strong emotions one might experience:
“(1) Betrayal. The limerent feels betrayed by LO. (Feelings of betrayal are common enough for Tennov to deem them noteworthy).”
I read the entire blog of DrL and you guys’ discussion, and agree that “betrayal” is perceived in our limerent’s head, might not true realistically, since LO haven’t emotionally committed to us in reality but only in our fantasy. I experienced this the strong feeling since the beginning of 2022 when LO got his pet LO. I even cried out to LO in my “closure” meeting this April, “it’s a kind of betrayal!” He just kept silent. When he denied his misleading, I almost shouted, “Yes, you DID!” My long repressed, accumulated resentments just explored (rarely happened with me in person).
(2) Anger. Intense anger that things didn’t pan out as they were supposed to in one’s mind.
My anger arose from the “fact” that he led me on and hoovered me back repeatedly both in writing and in person, so I went and stuck in LE deeper and deeper. More sadness and sense of helplessness; because I, as a semi-Stoic, accept that I can’t control others’ mind and deeds; and as a semi-Buddhist, I never beg for emotional food. My pride inherited from Dad is huge!
(3) Jealousy. Jealousy is a bit of a tricky one, since people are usually jealous when they fear losing someone/something.
I was never jealous previously of any other women or other things. All of sudden I realized and had to reluctantly admit that jealousy had contaminated me, which was plainly shocking! My father taught me never to feel jealousy because it is useless and it is small people’s personality traits, so it never bothered me. Until coming to LwL, I never knew that jealousy is a normal human emotion, the strongest in relating to genetical pair-bonding.
“If one is in one-sided limerence, one effectively is owed nothing and therefore can lose nothing. Logically, one can’t really be jealous. Logically, all one can feel is ENVY (perhaps of what LO’s partner is believed to possess) masquerading as jealousy.”
I agree and understand your logic here: I had no right to feel jealous, I had no reason to fear of losing anything because I acquired nothing, not even one piece of small gift from LO, except ghosting, gaslighting, blame shifting, lies, future faking, pulling-n-pushing… under a name of “colleague-friendship”; why should I be afraid to lose these?
Envy? I almost never felt envious, except for others’ loving parents or close siblings, no one else, not even those “happily” married couples, for whom I feel sincerely joyful. I never envied what the current SO possibly has, their reality was never my concern. It’s like I was limerent for something beyond daily routines and any regularity, something purely abstract. If by magic, LO suddenly becomes totally available, I would not know what to do with him. I’ve thought about this 0.01% possibility and came out with a conclusion — I must be in limerence with my own desire for LO, not the desired LO hmself. How wired!
(4) Ecstasy/euphoria/rapture. Things are going rather well. The “desired relationship” appears to be progressing.
I had plenty of those just from my own daydreaming, there was no “desired relationship” ever happened in my case, except with a self-created ghost — the Phantom.
(5) Despair/pain/sadness. LO’s apparent interest is waning. Things aren’t going particularly well. Maybe things are even going backwards?
Yes, when LO was pulling away, avoiding even superficial interaction, that brings dopamine fix.
(6) Shame. One feels undesirable, unworthy of LO’s love. One starts to blame oneself for the dead-end situation.
Couldn’t help feel all those.
(7) Guilt. One would possibly like to do naughty things with LO, but one doesn’t know whether LO would be on board with that. Hence, the guilt. Greater guilt is SO/s and/or other cultural barriers are involved.
Not fantasized doing “naughty things” in reality, that would be “incestual” for the first 4 years. Afterward, I became unwilling when a chance was given or offers were hinted. Not SO, but cultural barriers are concerned without guilt felt. I was a rule breaker since my daycare time.
“ (8) Hope. Oh dear. The game is on again. LO just winked at me. “
So you’re still in touch with your main LO! Hooray! Good friends yet?
(9) Humiliation. One finally admits one has been playing games of Truth or Dare with oneself, performing the tango alone, etc, etc.
I feel deeply mortified, asinine, though LO still appears genuinely friendly, a bit of flirty lately at our chitchat.
(10) Grief. One mourns what one has lost even though one in some cases has objectively lost nothing. One has been standing still in the same spot for years. Essentially, one mourns the death of a dream.
To me, the death of a dream of any kind is most grievous. I don’t know why I have been feeling this way since young, as if my emotions and thoughts were the most previous things in the world, although I intellectually know they are objectively not! But my sense of a spiritual death always brought me some physical sickness — very psychosomatic.
“Speaking of artistic creations, and their alleged inspirations, Beatrice and her friends apparently laughed at Dante for hi s over-the-top feelings for her. Also, Charlotte mocked Goethe for the extravagance of his affections while still being willing to talk to him from time to time. “
That’s my WHOLE point on the beauty of transcending creativity!! Despite their LO’s dislike or even mockery, Dante and Goethe still write out their time enduring masterpiece, in which their LO is idealized as an immortal character! That’s a true sense of “unrequited love” — The love regardless whatever the beloved feels for them! If impossible to obtain in reality — like a god, then create one in head and in art! — that’s also therapeutic, reducing the pains of limerence or unrequited love.
That’s what I call ACT or REACT, regarding love generated from within or without.
“ If Goethe’s example is anything to go by, worldwide fame seems to be a dodgy way of winning over LO.”
From my limited knowledge, he was too poor to marry Charlottes, who terribly needs money to support her 8-person family.
“But, then again, Goethe isn’t the Father of European Romanticism for nothing. Apparently, some readers enjoy three-hankie weepies. “
You sound somewhat cynical here. “Three-hankie weepies” have been existing since the dawn of our civilization, sometimes serves to spice or provoke those stagnating relationship or marriage.
Gosh, I’m writing average 2-3 essays here daily! Debating really helps clarify my muddled mind, (re)examine my old beliefs, dig out even subconscious, and balance out some of my limerence pains. Thank you for the mental sport!
@Snowphoenix.
A very elegant response. Thank you speaker number three for Team Phoenix.
Your argument is very solid. I only have some minor notes:
“… wants to give bare amount of friendship crumbs; I want more, but the barriers are just too many.”
If the limerent still resents LO for only providing “crumbs”, I believe limerent and LO are not ready to be friends, as this isn’t a true friendship dynamic.
“Why “pompously”? What’s wrong to convince others’ such a healthy deed? Did your forgiveness bring you inner peace, joy?”
I grew up in a culture steeped in Evangelical Christianity. And, to be honest, everyone in my social circle was a little bit pompous, a little bit sanctimonious, a little bit too self-consciously invested in spouting the right jargon. At various times, we were all guilty of “talking the talk” without “walking the walk”. 😉
After a while, all that self-importance and all that feigned virtue and all that endless self-promotion became tiresome/grating (both in myself and in others). In other words, everyone pretended to be holier than they actually were, yours truly included. One had to pretend to be very virtuous indeed to fit into that social world.
I was pompous when I told my friend to forgive, because at that point in time I hadn’t actually forgiven LO myself. I was telling my friend to do something that I myself hadn’t done, and perhaps I invalidated my friend’s feelings in the process by refusing to hear out to his complaint, or try to understand why he too was angry. 😉
Forgiveness did indeed bring me inner peace and joy – for all of five seconds! 😆 Then I went back to being resentful. So forgiveness could never be a one-time thing for me. Forgiveness was something I had to do over and over and over again, before the feelings of resentment faded and the feelings of tranquillity took hold. I guess we could attribute my strained relationship with forgiveness to OCD?
“That’s nonsense! I’m going to have a big debate with you on this point. Take care of and keep one’s own mental health might be the most beneficial thing one could do to oneself and others, as well as the society.”
Ah, don’t be too cross with me. I was being flippant, as per usual. But I see your point and I thank you/respect you for making it. Mental health is a serious issue and there’s nothing self-indulgent about choosing to prioritise one’s mental health over other concerns. 🤔
“I’m not sure what “wholly self-indulgent kind” forgiveness stands for; for self’s gratification, or a sense of superiority — degrading wrong doers, or what?”
Self-indulgent because it’s the kind advocated by daytime talk-show hosts (usually women) and not the kind advocated by pastors at church (usually men). Self-indulgent, to me, just means something you do for yourself. I think, traditionally, forgiveness is something you’re supposed to do for other people, not self. No sense of moral superiority or calling out of real and/or perceived wrongs required.
“In our relevance, It’s us with our LOs. Ability to forgive them does not foster skills to befriend with them again.”
Point conceded: friendship with an LO would depend on the ability to discuss in a civilised manner what may or may not have happened in the interaction, so the relationship can continue on the right footing in future. Friendship would require a certain level of emotional maturity from both parties, and the ability to talk things through.
“Until coming to LwL, I never knew that jealousy is a normal human emotion, the strongest in relating to genetical pair-bonding.”
Yes, jealousy is quite a natural part of being human. However, one actually has to be in a genuine relationship in the first place to fear losing one’s mate to a rival.
Limerence is a real doozy because limerence tricks the brain of the limerent into reacting to LO emotionally as if LO was the limerent’s mate already – even if no formal agreement has been reached, even if the LO has a partner or is in the process of acquiring a partner elsewhere.
Thus, the limerent does experience jealousy, and a good deal of jealousy around LO, because the limerent PERCEIVES the LO as “romantic partner” already, and not as “friend” or “colleague” or “amusing acquaintance I sometimes have coffee with”. This jealousy/possessiveness from a lovesick limerent is likely very off-putting to a given LO who isn’t terribly interested in pair-bonding.
“So you’re still in touch with your main LO! Hooray! Good friends yet?”
Nope. I’m not in touch with my main LO, and haven’t been for 17 years. He ghosted me, and for a long time I felt too many negative emotions toward him even to wish to renew our friendship. Also, I don’t believe his wife is a fan of mine, and I care more about what she thinks of me than I care about what he thinks of me. While I envy this woman something awful, I also identify with her strongly. If nothing else, she has … impeccable taste in husbands!! 😆
“Winking” is just a general example of how a hypothetical LO might pull a hypothetical limerent back into a hypothetical limerent dance, after hypothetical limerent has resolved to move on…
For a long time, after my LO ghosted me, I saw him in every man I met. Every man’s face was his face. Every man’s voice was his voice. Every man’s hands were his hands. Every man’s scent was his scent. Occasionally, random men would wink at me – usually out of completely innocent motives such as friendship, and all I would see is my LO winking at me – my LO’s face superimposed on those men’s faces. The random actions of random men could pull me back into obsession, because my brain made spurious connections between random men and my LO. That’s where the wink comes from…
“That’s my WHOLE point on the beauty of transcending creativity!! Despite their LO’s dislike or even mockery, Dante and Goethe still write out their time enduring masterpiece, in which their LO is idealized as an immortal character!”
Touche. 🤣
“You sound somewhat cynical here. “Three-hankie weepies” have been existing since the dawn of our civilization, sometimes serves to spice or provoke those stagnating relationship or marriage.”
For a time, my own emotional dysregulation made it hard for me to enjoy (or to empathise fully) with sad scenes in movies. I was so consumed with my own sorrows I didn’t want to witness or hear about other people’s sorrows. I think that’s a side-effect of limerence. One’s natural sympathy for others’ sorrows can become temporarily muted because one’s own sorrows feel so great. 🤔
“A very elegant response. Thank you speaker number three for Team Phoenix.”
Did I accidentally create the speaker #3 — Team Phoenix, here?
“If the limerent still resents LO for only providing “crumbs”, I believe limerent and LO are not ready to be friends, as this isn’t a true friendship dynamic.”
I’m not sure “resentment” is a word to describe my discontent, but a “sigh”. Also my concept of “friendship” is often different from the majority. I desire courageous “mind-naked” friendship (does it count as platonic?) with either men or women; but most people are afraid to expose their mind, even more than their body. The attraction is that our mind changes and renews constantly, making it infinitely more interesting than the relatively same body that only gets older everyday.
Also, I like meaning conversation, even just a couple of random sentences in texting, as if my mind is in a constant stream of consciousness, influenced by subconscious and unconscious. But almost no one could put up with my kind of mental flow, which appeared as “madding” at times— LO #7 commented. LO #5 just ignored my texting, so I naturally stopped — it takes two hands to play Ping-Pong. Now, the speed of your consciousness flow looks like going to knock me out the stage soon…. 😇
“At various times, we were all guilty of “talking the talk” without “walking the walk”.
I like the rhyme of this line! That’s how some people from the East to describe “idle” class in the West — they just talk and talk, and make or wait others to do the work. ☺️
“One had to pretend to be very virtuous indeed to fit into that social world.”
I still found it disturbing or unsettling to see LO to do so in order to fit the professional or social world. I pretend I did not see or know, it was/is not my business, and I tried hard to keep my childish mouth shot, which sometime made me physically nauseous.
“I was pompous when I told my friend to forgive, because at that point in time I hadn’t actually forgiven LO myself. I was telling my friend to do something that I myself hadn’t done, and perhaps I invalidated my friend’s feelings in the process by refusing to hear out to his complaint, or try to understand why he too was angry.”
Your insight 👁️ is so sharp, and mental nakedness so admirable!
“Forgiveness did indeed bring me inner peace and joy – for all of five seconds! “
That’s cute honesty! 😅
“So forgiveness could never be a one-time thing for me. “
Neither for me. I have some recurring resentments and have to repeate the work of forgiveness, which I believe, is due to the fact that LO has never “apologized” for what I perceived “cruel wrongdoings” on his part: in my head, he “betrayed” my affection for him, but in his mind, he never agreed to take or reciprocate my affection.
When LO #5 apologized to me in person and in tears for his wrongdoings, voluntarily exposed all his unethical deeds done to his LOs or SO, I could not help immediately forgave him, and never expected that not a crumb of resentment has ever come back for the past 7 years. “Are we friends?”— he also asked that question in front of me. Not the way I want or he wants, I guess; but we certainly don’t hold any grudges against each other.
“I guess we could attribute my strained relationship with forgiveness to OCD?”
I’m still figuring out how much of our OCD is affecting our limerence or the other way around. OCD permeates in all areas of our life (e.g. my editing a poem day and night with little eating or sleeping), limerence only one, but it’s the most intense and powerful one due to its unconscious connection to our genomic pair-bonding drive!
“Ah, don’t be too cross with me. I was being flippant”
Am I cross or humorously teasing? Ask other audience here! 😜 Relax, young man! I’m just a woman; in public of LwL or anywhere else, you have to let a woman win, even as a “sissy knight who bothers to wrestle with a maiden!” *LoL* 😁
“Self-indulgent, to me, just means something you do for yourself. “
I thought “self-indulgent” means some useless stuff one is obsessed doing to get self-gratified, like a spoiled kid.
“I think, traditionally, forgiveness is something you’re supposed to do for other people, not self. “
On the contrary, if forgiveness is loudly pronounced to the forgiven one or the general public, it is seen as to “extract” gratitude from the forgiven, or show off — your virtue, to the public . Besides, whatever happens in your head emotionally or mentally may or may not have effects in the forgiven one, just like limerence or unrequited love. True forgiveness is a virtue generated within, bringing one inner peace or joy, need not to be “bragged about.” It’s like donating a gift with your name printed, or just leave it on the church door.
“Point conceded: friendship with an LO would depend on the ability to discuss in a civilised manner what may or may not have happened in the interaction, so the relationship can continue on the right footing in future. “
This is what makes me keeping pondering over whether, when or ever at all I need to fully disclose to LO, so an authentic friendship can possibly happen “on the right footing in future”. Every morning I woke up with “to do or not to do?” It’s mostly “not to do” at this point! It just feels like I would tell a confused dude the weirdest dreams I had about him, or it would simply gratify that Sensor’s ego and vanity.
“Friendship would require a certain level of emotional maturity from both parties, and the ability to talk things through.”
But if I continue hiding this limerence thingy inside me, how an authentic, substantial friendship could ever been formed or built? Nonetheless with SO’s existence, I don’t believe there would be ever fulfilling friendship with LO.
“Yes, jealousy is quite a natural part of being human. However, one actually has to be in a genuine relationship in the first place to fear losing one’s mate to a rival.”
Intellectually I know you are absolutely RIGHT. But emotionally I could not help feel jealousy, since my glimmer out of the genetic drive is mysteriously strong and enduring, even I know now that LO is a wrong one. I guess jealousy is also caused by the wound of ego — I am unwanted as a person and a woman.
“Limerence is a real doozy because limerence tricks the brain of the limerent into reacting to LO emotionally as if LO was the limerent’s mate already – even if no formal agreement has been reached, even if the LO has a partner or is in the process of acquiring a partner elsewhere.”
You’re so right! Just keep repeating the passage to my limerent brain that really needs such a rationality hammering! 🤦🏽♀️🔨
“Thus, the limerent does experience jealousy, and a good deal of jealousy around LO, because the limerent PERCEIVES the LO as “romantic partner” already, and not as “friend” or “colleague” or “amusing acquaintance I sometimes have coffee with”. This jealousy/possessiveness from a lovesick limerent is likely very off-putting to a given LO who isn’t terribly interested in pair-bonding.”
That’s why I cannot disclose anything further! Keep hamming my limerent head! ⛏️🔨
“For a long time, after my LO ghosted me, I saw him in every man I met.”
I don’t think this will happen to me; I can’t even remember LO’s face every time after I exited the shared building. The Phantom has a blurry face of LO, and I limerent for the former more, because he’s ideal. The realistic LO has disappointed me a great deal; although we still chitchat maybe once a week, the alienation I have felt in between gives me chills everyday. He’s never rude to me (only me to hm), but his ignorance and distance are colder…
“For a time, my own emotional dysregulation made it hard for me to enjoy (or to empathise fully) with sad scenes in movies. I was so consumed with my own sorrows I didn’t want to witness or hear about other people’s sorrows. I think that’s a side-effect of limerence. One’s natural sympathy for others’ sorrows can become temporarily muted because one’s own sorrows feel so great.
Well, I went the opposite. I would repeatedly play opera arias or mourning music — let them amplify and broadcast my sorrows for me, since I can’t sing tragic tones, compose sad melady, or shred heartbreaking tears…
Are you fully aware that we two ghost limerents are performing in a marathon, unfolding play for our fellow limerents and passerby from the world over? — how do you feel about such an exposure of mental nakedness? If we are visible to each other, would you be able to play at such a world stage?
“And your ability to reason is swept away
Oh, heaven on earth is all you see
You’re out of touch with reality”
Adam, Adam, Adam…
“Okay, so your heart is broken
You sit around mopin’
Cryin’ and cryin’
You say you’re even thinkin’ about dyin’
Well, before you do anything rash, dig this”
You can’t quote lyrics from a song like that and not link it!
“Everybody Plays The Fool” – The Main Ingredient (1972)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_UM9AaUb4k
On the theme of love ❤️ and limerence,
I see limerence as frustrated love , attempts are made for reciprocation but are not validated .(no matter how pure the attempts).
Love in itself is a beautiful thing, Agape love has the following characteristics and essence according to Paul, in 2 Corinthians 13:5-7 :
“Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices on the truth; bears all things, believes all things, endures all things, love never fails.”
I don’t think any person being capable to attain that high of a degree of love… we’re fallible creatures, also need the romantic erotic side of it. So, what we’re looking for to please us is the triangular love: *
intimacy (feelings), commitment and passion. If you’re shortchanged in any of those three things it would be like a table missing one or two legs, won’t work at all, therefore the frustration,
and uncertainties which may result in limerence also?
To me, it all begins when you want to give the very best of your feelings (love), all of them, to the person you’re attracted to and fallen in love with. The problem starts when LO either rejects them all, or choose and pick what it’s convenient for them . That’s why you’ve got to be very careful with those precious feelings of yours, and beware to whom do you want to give them, to be appreciated , not to be played with…
****see Dr. Robert Sternberg’s article : “The triangular theory of love”, and it’s combinations.
Best wishes to all.
@Nisor, Sammy, Snow,
Reading all these comments lately, I can see I am the textbook limerent. I have experienced so many of these negative emotions. Most of which you all define so well through your sentencing. It’s almost like I’m reading about all my feelings toward LO.
At one point and in the beginning of my LE, I would have believed that there were some mutual feelings to where LO and myself could have started out as Friends. It seemed so possible, but over time and through much inaction and misunderstanding, I can see that ship has kind of sailed.
This guilty feeling I’m left with is very depressing. It feels like it has become a part of me.
I still feel like I’m in the altered state. It’s like all I can feel is sadness and getting or wanting out of it feels like I’m at the bottom of a hundred foot well, looking up, and having no solution how to even begin to get out.
“This guilty feeling I’m left with is very depressing. It feels like it has become a part of me.”
MJ
You are not alone my friend. I feel as heavy of a burden of guilt that I put Momma through this as much as I do Morgan. Because of limerence I ruined two relationships. Possibly a marriage and possibly a friendship that could have continued even after she left. I can’t know for sure if any part of the reason why she left the job was me, but I can certainly punish myself for thinking that it might have been.
I have had female co-workers since my high school jobs and this has never happened. Limerence that is. I did date one female co-worker when I was single. But that wasn’t limerence. That was a crush I was acting on. That romance didn’t work out and it was awkward working with her after. Sometimes I envy aromantic people. Because even if this limerence severs our romantic connection in our marriage, with Momma, I know we will always have a connection as friends. I don’t think that connection could ever be severed.
Hi MJ
I don’t think it’s a guilty feeling you have, it’s regrets , perhaps remorse with yourself you didn’t act faster to approach LO. One never knows when it’s too early or too late to react to a situation. Look at me with my Lo 49 years ago, I should have called him then , not 49 years later. But like you I felt hesitant to call for fear to hear something I would not like … silly it was of me. So I carry with this regret now. But before last year all was fine not knowing or hearing about him. Time and distance were on my side… It will pass when you least expect it. So I hope.
Hang in there and be strong. Hugs for you and great weekend.
The 8 Ancient Greek Words for Love
Eros (romantic, passionate love)
Philia (affectionate love)
Agape (selfless, universal love)
Storge (familiar love)
Mania (obsessive love)
Ludus (playful love)
Pragma (enduring love)
Philautia (self love)
So where does limerence fit? Mania? Eros+Mania? Eros+Mania+Philia? Something else?
Limerence is philia, storge ,Eros, agape, all four things ‘gone sour’ or when one or more of the above is missing in the relationship. Because it becomes unfulfilling to one’s wishes. Then it can become some sort of mania, the limerent tends to seek to put it all together to his/her dismay, the LO is unsatisfying their needs. Then the frustration sets in. Limerence is frustrated love…
“Limerence is philia, storge ,Eros, agape, all four things ‘gone sour’ or when one or more of the above is missing in the relationship. Because it becomes unfulfilling to one’s wishes. Then it can become some sort of mania, the limerent tends to seek to put it all together to his/her dismay, the LO is unsatisfying their needs. Then the frustration sets in. Limerence is frustrated love…”
@Nisor.
That’s a very interesting thing to say – this idea that limerence is all forms of love mixed up together. I think what happens in limerence, under ideal circumstances, is “unconditional acceptance of the other and the other’s faults”. This is why people say: “Oh, my LO was my brother, sister, father, mother, lover, friend, whole world to me, etc.” But, as you say, this heady brew of many kinds of love can go sour.
I developed something that certainly felt like mania after I lost my LO. I don’t know what the purpose of this mania was/is. But I think my brain went into a state of overdrive and was attempting to go over all the key events of my life thus far and then arrange them in an order that made sense.
Let’s put it another way. I don’t think there was necessarily anything gravely wrong with my life prior to limerence. I had plenty of childhood experiences with my parents that were extremely positive. I did have friends, etc. But my brain hadn’t fully processed these good experiences, along with bad experiences or neutral experiences, into a coherent story.
I think what my brain really wanted to do was write some coherent-sounding life narrative on my behalf. I think my brain was trying to come up with an identity that would explain to me why I was/am the way I am.
Sammy,
After every romance , one tries to find out what went wrong with “me”, one knows that we have experienced something new to us. One tries to fit it in with what we knew before, but it can’t be because this is something new in your life. You’re expanding, you’re learning every time. It’s adding to your core identity. You’re discovering yourself in different settings of life. It’s an ever evolutionary ride …
The soul never stops learning, if you put good things in it, it will “live”, if you put bad things in it, it withers and dies.
I was not so confused with my identity, the “trunk” of the tree of who am I , but it was growing all kind of branches along the course of life, and still developing new ones until one dies. The “rotten” branches of hurts -wounds you cut off…let them be replaced with new fresh branches of love and forgiveness and forgetting, understanding, wisdom, patience , and peace of mind, and why not , a little bit of humor…
Don’t you ever let anyone else define who you are! Each one of us is unique, a complete masterpiece in progress! And when it’s finished it will look great like a Michelangelo’s or Rubens, Van Gogh, Monet s masterpieces. They all started with a stroke of the brush! Too bad we will not be hanging at the Louvre s
museum, haha.
Have a great wonderful day.
@Snowphoenix.
“So where does limerence fit? Mania? Eros+Mania? Eros+Mania+Philia? Something else?”
Great question. I think limerence might start out as Ludus and Eros, and then turn into Mania if it’s unrequited.
I think confusion arises because people convince themselves they’re experiencing Philia, or Storge, or Agape, when they’re actually experiencing something tinged with Eros, but can’t identify Eros due to lack of life experience. Also, the limerent may play up the “Philia” element of the relationship in order to conceal the “Eros” from LO. The LO might feel genuine Philia, though, for the limerent. 😉
“I think confusion arises because people convince themselves they’re experiencing Philia, or Storge, or Agape, when they’re actually experiencing something tinged with Eros, but can’t identify Eros due to lack of life experience.”
@Sammy
That seems to be my case: the glimmer is set off by Eros (In all my ex-LEs), but I could not identify it due to this taboo issue in my COO, my ignorance in neuroscience and glimmer. It felt like Storge, from my “past life”…
Also, the limerent may play up the “Philia” element of the relationship in order to conceal the “Eros” from LO. The LO might feel genuine Philia, though, for the limerent. 😉
In my case, it was like a surrogate parent-child dynamic for 4 years; then, it suddenly changed to sour Eros elements — anger, jealousy, disgust, disappointment, depression and despair….
Now, there is more Philaupia, after my enduring physical and mental pains, exploring and expanding the Self, and learning and communicating about limerence in LwL.
Eros is still left, but controlled by the lack of Philia.
“In my case, it was like a surrogate parent-child dynamic for 4 years; then, it suddenly changed to sour Eros elements — anger, jealousy, disgust, disappointment, depression and despair….”
@Snowphoenix.
Well, if there’s a parent-child dynamic happening between LO and limerent, it’s very understandable that “storge” would be the first label one would reach for to try and describe the relationship. 🤔
I often called my LO my “adopted brother”, and he accepted the label. But, obviously, one does not yearn for one’s platonic friend or one’s brother, adopted or otherwise. That’s not really socially acceptable. I think by labelling my LO (as “brother” and not “lover”, though the two words rhyme), my subconscious mind was trying to sanitise and justify an attraction that was deeply transgressive. 😉
@Sammy
“Well, if there’s a parent-child dynamic happening between LO and limerent, it’s very understandable that “storge” would be the first label one would reach for to try and describe the relationship. 🤔”
Eros already kicked in during first 5 seconds of glimmer that set off by my spot of him and his ignorance of my existence. It felt like this person was very familiar, as if from my past life…. At this stage, it was not “Storge” yet. Eros was running under the line.
“I think by labelling my LO (as “brother” and not “lover”, though the two words rhyme), my subconscious mind was trying to sanitise and justify an attraction that was deeply transgressive. 😉”
The parallel is here: By labeling my LO as surrogate father but not “lover”, my mind was trying to “sanities and justify” an inappropriate attraction and secret emotional attachment to a married man — also “deeply transgressive, although I did not know whether he was married or available at all (he looked in his 30s while 47) for the first 4 months after the glimmer — not through our eye contacts, but only my peripheral eyes.
Up to this day, I only admitted that I overshared in monologue with him as a surrogate father. Later some “Philia” formed after my 3 LCs, which he seemed to “cling” to, but was painfully insufficient to my deep emotional needs. The intermittent feeling of being slighted, ignored, and “abandoned” — the lack of Philia in a “love affair”, is so painful and devastating particularly to one with cptsd!
Now I admit to you guys here that Eros is stronger than other types in this LE mix; nonetheless, I still refused PA offer without enough of his Philia perceived by me. I didn’t want to be treated as a second side-chick.
Snow hi,
“It felt like the person was very familiar, as from my past life…”
Yeah, that’s true! When my LO spoke to me for the very first time, it was as if I could’ve said : ‘where were you, I was waiting for you! It’s a weird feeling yet very real and nice and warm, lovely! Life and it’s surprises! It’s a marvelous thing to happen to anyone!
You say Eros kicked in during first five seconds of glimmer, that’s probably the first reaction one gets of lust, excitement, emotions, all mixed in. Unconsciously one sees oneself as part of their lives . Oh boy, the trouble starts here! I think the glimmer is just unconscious lust for the person you just met. And you only have that lust for a stranger, not a father nor a brother or a son etc.
That’s why we should never call or identify our lovers as family. It’s very unhealthy and weird. The mind registers as true anything you tell it, whether it’s false or true. Lover is lover, and it sounds so beautiful, so romantic! Let’s label our LOs as lovers, nothing else. Let’s not try to give them a roll they don’t want to be to you, and you
yourself don’t want them to be in reality. Clear? That should make life much easier…
Have a good day and a hug for you. Stay 💪🏽 strong.
Snowphoenix,
Have you read:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/love-and-limerence-part-one/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/love-and-limerence-part-two/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-losing-faith-in-love-because-of-limerence/
@LE
Thank you, read them, got much clear headed. Limerence is the way more complicated than we often perceived and discussed about.
It’s a shame that almost no one had done more research since Tunnov, which could have possibly helped so many lost, heartbroken or even ruined limerents
Well, eye contact is an interesting topic…
Dorothy Tennov wrote that “eyes are the organ of limerence”, so there does seem to be some basis to the belief eye contact is a good marker of romantic interest. The fact that limerence can maybe be triggered by intense eye contact from a potential attractive mate is in line with the idea that limerence is this instinctual biological reaction and takes place on an almost subliminal level. (By the time you realise you’re infatuated you’re already hooked on a specific person).
I had one LO who had very pretty, very seductive eyes. But I doubt he was looking at me. His eyes were pretty and seductive all the time, so that wasn’t very helpful of him now, was it? Forgive the joke, but he probably mistily gazed at his pet goldfish in the same way. 😉
My main LO – I don’t really recall eye contact as being a huge part of the attraction, but I suppose it was. I mean, he had distinctive eyes. I think he looked at me from time to time, but I couldn’t say for sure what emotion his eyes conveyed, if any.
I think once I stared at him, and he stared right back at me, and some girl noticed and asked (LO): “Why are you looking at Sammy? What does that look mean?” And my LO just shrugged and said: “Dunno.” I think the real reason my LO stared at me was reflective empathy – he was merely mirroring my body language on an unconscious level, but that wasn’t a sign of actual attraction. He had no five-year plan to get into a relationship with me, or something. Still, the limerent brain picks up on these subtle signals and makes a big deal out of them – all subliminally.
Neurodiverse people are probably more likely to avoid eye contact, so they might misunderstand eye contact when they do receive it. As an INTJ, I tend to have an intense stare on my face most of the time. This doesn’t mean I’m attracted to someone; it just means I’m deep in thought, debating some topic inside my own mind.
I think eye contact is often a sign of one person’s interest in another person. But that interest doesn’t have to be romantic. Strong, sustained eye contact can signal platonic interest, for example – an interest in getting to know someone as a platonic friend. Eye contact can mean curiosity of a non-romantic kind.
For eye contact to signal limerence, both parties would have to be in the altered state of limerence, both parties would have to be strongly physically attracted to each other, and both parties would have to be at a similar level of social/emotional maturity so they’re both capable of interpreting that eye contact correctly. That’s asking for a lot of little ducks to line up in a neat little row.
Here’s an interesting thought: as a neurodiverse person, I wasn’t all that interested in eyes. Do you know what I was interested in? I was interested in mouths. When an LO smiled a dazzling smile, that smile sent me into ecstasy, and not eye contact per se. So not everybody’s working off the same set of cues.
“Here’s an interesting thought: as a neurodiverse person, I wasn’t all that interested in eyes. Do you know what I was interested in? I was interested in mouths. When an LO smiled a dazzling smile, that smile sent me into ecstasy, and not eye contact per se. So not everybody’s working off the same set of cues.”
I am neuroatypical also and all I can say to this is YEAH! Exactly!
Sammy, Snow,
I’ll try to trace the eight phases of love evolvement in my affair with LO. (3 years exclusive romantic relationship)
It started with Ludus, (flirting game), then philia, turned to Eros, then storge, agape, pragma; and Philautia , when things started to strain a little bit I thought of myself in order not to suffer the pangs of breakup, I walked away ahead of time… everything went fine , (bottled up everything inside) until last year (2022) when I had the dream with LO who was my SO 49 years before, and “ Mania”, limerence took over. And that’s where we’re today…
“It started with Ludus, (flirting game), then philia, turned to Eros, then storge, agape, pragma; and Philautia , when things started to strain a little bit I thought of myself in order not to suffer the pangs of breakup, I walked away ahead of time… everything went fine , (bottled up everything inside) until last year (2022) when I had the dream with LO who was my SO 49 years before, and “ Mania”, limerence took over. And that’s where we’re today…”
@Nisor.
Wow! Well, in a way, that’s sort of cool. You kind of ran the whole gamut of emotions, and experienced all the different types of love. If nothing else, at least you know you’re capable of deep feeling! 😛
Sammy,
It’s true that when love is reciprocated you run through all the stages of love, one at the time, sometimes all mixed up and quick, like whirlwind . You escalate up to them. (perhaps Pragma not so much, in my case, as lack of true commitment at the end ruined the relationship ).
As love progresses to evolve into something glorious; you touch heaven and feel an immense divine peace , you know this is like something supernatural , is a tremendous ray of light, you feel suspended on the air, and you become scared, to be even deserving of it, that you have to come to earth, but you don’t want to. It’s not a feeling of drunkenness at all. It’s sublime. It’s complete bliss! The most extraordinary feeling you can ever have. Completeness! Cannot be sustainable on earth, I think!
But love is very fragile, the tiniest hint of mistrust or doubt from the other spoils it all. It’s like a red wine stain in the most perfect white linen tablecloth… It breaks the dream, and you know you have to protect yourself,
you know it’s dangerous , for you have given your all, or else you die… you got too close to the sun! And like every other dream you have to wake up ! For we humans are not infallible. LO will forever be my Beloved!
I thank God that even if for a little while I was able too see through His eyes…
To love someone is nothing, to be loved by someone, that’s something, but to love and be loved, that’s everything! (something like that)
I swore l’ll never love that way again, that is, to give my ALL self to anyone anymore . It’s too dangerous! So I was very careful and practical in choosing the next SO. I now have a different attachment…a secure attachment. I can tell: now forty six years together with SO.
Love is a many splendored thing! ( Listen to the song, watch the movie. )
Someone said that love is for fools, how true, who wants to get hurt over and over again? One or two times is enough until you learn the ropes…
@Nisor.
“It’s true that when love is reciprocated you run through all the stages of love, one at the time, sometimes all mixed up and quick, like whirlwind . You escalate up to them. (perhaps Pragma not so much, in my case, as lack of true commitment at the end ruined the relationship ).
As love progresses to evolve into something glorious; you touch heaven and feel an immense divine peace , you know this is like something supernatural , is a tremendous ray of light, you feel suspended on the air, and you become scared, to be even deserving of it, that you have to come to earth, but you don’t want to. It’s not a feeling of drunkenness at all. It’s sublime. It’s complete bliss! The most extraordinary feeling you can ever have. Completeness! Cannot be sustainable on earth, I think!
But love is very fragile, the tiniest hint of mistrust or doubt from the other spoils it all. It’s like a red wine stain in the most perfect white linen tablecloth… It breaks the dream, and you know you have to protect yourself, you know it’s dangerous , for you have given your all, or else you die… you got too close to the sun! And like every other dream you have to wake up ! For we humans are not infallible. LO will forever be my Beloved!”
That certainly sounds very beautiful, Nisor. Are you describing the bliss of mutual limerence? 🤔
Being the exasperating pedant of a man that I am, and a closet cynic to boot, (or do I mean a closet romantic turned closet cynic?), I would argue that limerence is fragile and real love is robust. And real love needs to be robust, because loved ones are going to mess up, especially if those loved ones happen to be one’s own progeny!! (Spouses have been known to mess up too, from time to time).
I think, during limerence, I didn’t distrust my LO. I distrusted the whole process. I distrusted my own instincts. I wasn’t sure if I was the hero or the villain in the piece, but I definitely wanted to play the villain. (A refreshing change of pace. What can I say?) 😆
Like you, I also didn’t want to fly too close to the sun. But more out of a fear of winning big. Perhaps I was a coward, but I’m not unhappy with the choices I made. Perhaps I attempted to smother the limerent reaction inside myself, long before it ever had a chance to bloom, out of a desire to protect my LO from the darkness festering deep inside my own soul? Villains aren’t above the odd sacrifice. Sometimes, villains do nice things for other people. It breaks up the monotony of being a villain, or so I’m told… 😉
I knew I wasn’t the right person for my LO. I knew he needed a woman in his life, and I tried very hard not to be jealous of the woman he eventually chose. Or the woman who chose him. Or whatever the situation may have been. (Maybe they chose each other? Spooky!) But their growing closeness wasn’t easy to witness.
They say two’s company and three’s a crowd. Wouldn’t know, honey. Wouldn’t know. I certainly wouldn’t sit next to my LO while he was sitting next to his girlfriend at the movies, and eat most of the popcorn … loudly. I certainly wouldn’t be the fifth wheel in anyone’s disgustingly sweet courtship. That must have been a hallucination… 😉
I always tried to do the right thing. However, my “righteousness”, if you like, didn’t protect me from my own negative emotions, which were legion. Perhaps I’m the one who made limerence poisonous rather than pleasurable? But it was out of a desire to do the right thing in a strictly conventional sense. (Did I mention the most villainous of villains still live by these adorable little things called “moral codes”?) 😜
“To love someone is nothing, to be loved by someone, that’s something, but to love and be loved, that’s everything! (something like that)”
Um, not sure I agree. I’ve always had it drummed into me that the great honour is in loving someone else and not in being loved. To love someone else – that’s the greatest of luxuries. To quote the immortal W. H. Auden: “If equal affection cannot be,/Let the more loving one be me.”
On the other hand, Auden was a gay man, and gay men are attracted to the tragic vision of life. (Just ask Thomas Mann, Patrick White, and a couple of other authors whose names at present escape me). Tragedy is just so much more GLAMOROUS than comedy, know what I mean? Why be Lucille Ball when you can be Maria Callas? Not that poor dear Lucille didn’t see her fair share of sorrows… 😲
(Sorry for the camp response – you brought out my cheeky side). 🙄
“you touch heaven and feel an immense divine peace , you know this is like something supernatural , is a tremendous ray of light, you feel suspended on the air, and you become scared, to be even deserving of it, that you have to come to earth, but you don’t want to.”
Nisor
This is limerence to me. These are the things that flooded my head with Morgan. It was this great drunken buzz. The abandonment of reason. And loosing touch with reality.
I felt very happy when I realized my soon to be wife reciprocated my feelings when I finally expressed them to her. When she said yes to me asking her “would you like to have the same last name as me?” I couldn’t believe it. What does this wonderful, beautiful woman want with a geek like me? I feel like love, not Eros, is stable and practical. Being compatible is central for a long term relationship.
Don’t get me wrong there is plenty of Eros in our 23 year marriage. Nothing like getting to close the bedroom door. 🙂 But I feel to start it should feel stable and practical. I know we can make this work because I know you at a deep level. You have shared things with me I cannot believe. And even as friends, long before our romance started, I shared things with her I have never shared with even my own family. And still haven’t. Euphoria only came about after finally meeting each other in person after months of only online contact. But those came because I finally touched, literally, the person I fell in love with from only text and phone conversations.
Just like indulging in drunkenness regularly is irresponsible (Lord knows I know) so is indulging in limerence. At least in my experience. Not seeing Morgan as a flawed human, like myself, is the drunken limerence I should have done without. And sobering up you face the consequences of your actions/words.
Sammy,
Yes, I was describing the bliss of a mutual relationship. Lo loved me and I loved him so…
I say love is fragile in the sense that when “in love” one becomes so sensitive, frightened that it might end at some point and you don’t want it to. You’re in a different level of emotions…
Whereas limererence , as mania, makes you bold and strong, willing to fight and be ridiculous if you will, it endures the storms, it persists and is almost unshakable. How I wished I had this limererence/mania when I broke up with LO then!*** Well, don’t mind me, I had no experience of LTRs, then, it was my first… before that every affair was ludus and casual eros. I was so ignorant!
*** I still don’t know if I was the hero or the villain for breaking away, and definitely yes, I was a coward that ran away!
The last words of LO to me were: “ I’ve never before loved another woman more than I’ve loved you.” And I answered: Now it’s too late; (I don’t know where that came from), and he said: “I just wanted you to know that.”
And I said: I have to hang up because it’s late and I have to go to work.” That was our very last conversation then, ,49 years ago, after that total silence, NC all that time. Never heard of him again)
When I finally talked to LO last year , amongst other things, he told me, “ You we’re not patient, have you waited a little longer, our lives now would’ve been different, it was not to be, it was fate, maybe God.” I kept silence and never explained what, or why I ran away, I couldn’t, it took me by surprise. ( but before that in our first phone call I told him that ‘he was the love of my live,’ to which he replied, “ I’m sorry you feel that way.” I was not expecting anything different for time has passed and hearts get healed.)
I’m still hostage of his words then, 49 years ago, and his words of last year. What do they mean? I’ve not spoken to him again. His wife controls the phone though he was happy that I called. He is a real gentleman and treated me as if time has not passed for us. He said he only have good memories of me. And Limerence gets fueled up some more with regrets and sadness. It’s really “NOW ITS TOO LATE… “ Thus, I’m better off to keep away from that torture… it doesn’t help at all!
Got you dizzy? The genie 🧞♀️ is out of the glass.
@Nisor.
“I say love is fragile in the sense that when “in love” one becomes so sensitive, frightened that it might end at some point and you don’t want it to. You’re in a different level of emotions…
Whereas limererence , as mania, makes you bold and strong, willing to fight and be ridiculous if you will, it endures the storms, it persists and is almost unshakable. How I wished I had this limererence/mania when I broke up with LO then!*** Well, don’t mind me, I had no experience of LTRs, then, it was my first… before that every affair was ludus and casual eros. I was so ignorant!”
I agree with everything you say here, but I’d substitute “limerence” for “love” in the first sentence. I feel that you are talking about limerence in both your first statement and your second statement. You are talking about two different manifestations of limerence, and confusing one of those two manifestations (the milder one) with love. Although, full disclosure, I’ve never been in an LTR, so I’m no expert on falling in love. 🙄
To me, limerence is incredibly fragile because, as you say, it makes people super-sensitive to signs of rejection and/or reciprocation from LO. A very small spat/disagreement can spoil the whole illusion, and break the spell. My LO never disagreed with me – at least not to my face. Hence, I remained permanently spellbound by him! (Did I love him or did I love having my ego massaged?) 😆
To me, limerence is also mania, as you suggest. Limerence makes one bold and strong, incredibly reckless. Limerence makes one willing to fight and not mind appearing ridiculous, etc.
Limerence is fragile = how I felt before my nervous breakdown. (I’ve gotta play my cards right so I don’t lose this man. And he’s slipping away fast. He’s always slipping, slipping away…)
Limerence is mania = how I felt periodically AFTER my nervous breakdown, interspersed with a lot of guilt and despair. (I want this one thing so badly that I don’t care that I’m neglecting myself, losing my temper frequently, or appearing foolish to other people).
Fortunately, I’m an introvert. So most of my “madness” took place inside my own head, and didn’t adversely affect other people in my life too much. The only person I really hurt was myself.
Love, to my mind, isn’t oversensitive. Nor is love mania, or a justification to do silly things or make grand gestures. Love isn’t analysing words. Love, unlike limerence, isn’t preoccupied with the reciprocation of feelings. Love is something you do regardless of whether you get a reward out of the whole exercise or not.
Love isn’t a game. Love is more like a general disposition toward other people and life in general. Love has little use for envy because love isn’t seeking some advantage. Love also has little use for jealousy, since one seeks the loved one’s happiness above all else. Love is altruistic at its core whereas limerence demands return on emotional investment, preferably with healthy interest added. 😉
Song of the Day: “If I Never Knew Your Name” – Neil Diamond (1969)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf7X5Z0mOCM
For those of us who will only ever get to know our LOs from afar…
Hi all. A new thought came to me today, what if we try to look on LO as a sibling ? Has anyone tried this tactic ? I’m wondering if this could help reduce the romance/passion feelings but still enable to continue a deep/ special connection in a more pure way. Could such an approach help to reprogram and lower the desire and need for reciprocation. I like the idea as it reduces the star-crossed lovers with barriers narrative, and it seems more plausible than ‘we are just friends’.
or is it weird and not right ?
IMHO
Hi,
I think you can try anything in order to get rid of limerence, the question is: Can you suppress the romantic feelings for LO just like that? Need to work hard on this. I know I myself I couldn’t. Perhaps time will tell.
Good luck and best wishes.
IMHO,
I would have some problems with that since physical attraction is a main part of my limerences.
It would add some weird incestuous guilt to all the mixed feelings…
I think it is the mouth that belies a person’s state of mind more so than the eyes. If someone, even an attractive someone, stares at me I am actually more inclined to think they might be staring at me because they think I’m weird, of they can tell there is something a little off about me. Now, if this person breaks into a brilliant radiant smile, I’m GONE!!!!
I agree with this, eyes and mouth are closely related in the cues of attraction. My LO gazes at me quite a bit, but hand in hand with her gazing is the way she slightly smiles always at me. In the first few weeks of my LE, when it was crystalizing (unbeknownst to me) LO was not just giving me heavy eye contact but smiling a lot too in our interaction which made it seem like she was hanging on my every word to her, just hoping for more. The euphoria I felt from the brightness of her face is what sent me into this deep LE.
Now, these same interactions with her just annoy me because they mean nothing, they lead to nothing, they just feel like some silly school girl that may or may not have a teachers crush but is not willing to do more than gaze and smile.
I felt the same way about my LO. Is that all you got? This ridiculous flirting? S**t or get off the pot.
Totally off topic, I asked chatGPT to write a letter with the following prompt:
“write a letter to my limerent object explaining why I have to go no contact”.
Pretty amazing answer!
My Dearest [Limerent Object’s Name],
It is with a heavy heart and the weight of difficult decisions that I pen down this letter. I want to be completely transparent with you and share the reasons behind the choice I have made to go no contact. Please know that this decision was not made lightly, but rather with great introspection and consideration for both of us.
Our connection has been a whirlwind of emotions, a captivating dance between what could be and what reality dictates. It has been a rollercoaster of highs and lows, filled with exhilaration and pain. I have come to realize that this emotional turbulence has taken a toll on my well-being, affecting my ability to find peace and stability within myself.
To heal and grow, I believe I need distance and space to gain a clearer perspective on my own life, aspirations, and values. It’s a necessary step to find my balance and cultivate a sense of self that isn’t defined by the intensity of our connection. This period of no contact is not a reflection of my feelings for you, but rather an act of self-preservation and self-discovery.
I value and appreciate the time we’ve spent together, the laughter, the deep conversations, and the moments of shared vulnerability. You’ve been a significant presence in my life, and I will always hold those memories dear. However, for my own emotional and mental well-being, I need to step back and reevaluate my priorities and the direction of my life.
I hope you understand the gravity of this decision and respect my need for space and time to heal. It is not my intention to cause you pain or discomfort. If, in the future, we find ourselves on paths that align once more, I am open to reevaluating our connection. Until then, I wish you nothing but happiness, peace, and success in all your endeavors.
Take care and farewell,
[Your Name]
Indeed, it’s pretty amazing answer! But it doesn’t help
every Limerent when they haven’t had a real relationship with LO.
Yes it’s easy to imagine there’s more to eye contact than there is. It was a huge part of what drew me in. Looking back it feels like it could have been manipulative.
Very good comments and insights. My dad passed away and I am fighting to not contact me LO. Emailed him and another person to let them know because of my child. He called me within 10 minutes to offer condolences. I was only 3 days after the fact and I was so out of it and tried to keep myself detached. At the end he said to keep in touch.
I so badly want to reach out but I will feel guilt and start this process again. I do feel I have genuine friendship feelings for her but very dangerous especially when I’m so vulnerable right now.
This hurts so bad. Thanks for listening. Peace and strength to all of you.
Beth I am very sorry to hear of the loss of your father. I am hopeful that this will strengthen your spirts and not bring you down further. But your predicament reminded me of this song. Take care of yourself.
Don’t Fade Away — Acosta Russel
https://youtu.be/JJw9G-7HnKc?si=HC2kwvJQjPa-mldz
Best wishes.
Thank you Adam that was beautiful. I never heard that song before. It’s amazing how music is its own language and can express what we otherwise cannot. That touched me and got out some emotions I couldn’t tap into. Thank you. How are you doing?
Beth
Another song that I recently discovered. The singing and music together I find very soothing. Many days I will come home from a long day at work and make me a drink and sit out on the porch and listen to this on repeat for a bit. Always calms my nerves and gets my feet back on the ground to do what I have to.
Past Lives — Martin Arteta
https://youtu.be/35NcfmCXYaQ?si=4mE5tzs-_Ezk4Uf4
@Beth 2,
Sending my condolences to you and your family!
This dark period is going to last for a while, mine from 5 years ago is still going sometimes. Be strong and hold onto your logical mind.
Come here to express your grief and sorrow anytime.
Thank you so much Snowpheonix. I’ve had many LEs but none like this and that’s because it started close to 6 years ago after my mom passed. LO was a boss of mine at my children’s school and gave me free life coaching which morphed into more like counseling. I shared way too much and disclosed because I thought I could share anything. Wrong! It was awkward and he said some unkind stuff. Some of the most emotional pain I have ever been through. Long story short we continued to work together and talk a lot for 2 years but not about my personal stuff. Only his sometimes. I have been counseling all this time. With the counselors help I came to see the push/pull dynamic.
One night after having a meeting with him I woke up in a sweat and fast heart rate and knew I had to quit the job. I quit the next day and it was so hard. That was 2 years ago and I am trying to do super low contact. He still reaches out to update my on my old position as I created a new program. I loved that job. This is our last year in this school as my kids are going into higher grades. So that will be hard.
I also am married so LE has to end. It’s one sided and not right to have. So in addition to grieving my parents I’m grieving LO. It’s like all my life hurts were projected on to LO. Sorry for the book. Thanks for your kindness!
@Beth 2,
My goodness, we share a lot in terms how limerence entered our life at the grieving time right after one parent of ours passed away, which made us most vulnerable and deepest melancholy.
Because LO came at the crucial time as a surrogate parent, we felt we could share and “dump” all our thoughts and emotions to him. I still do not fully grasp the psychology that drove our “reckless”, senseless behaviors. Luckily, my LO only pointed out that he was the wrong person for me to share those very personal stuff, which was felt “cold” to me back then, but now, it makes a perfect sense. He was rightfully confused and politely handled the awkward situation. (But what happened later was another story.)
I was counseling from the beginning to the middle of my LE; but too embarrassed to tell my therapist even a quarter of my story, except that I was attracted to this unavailable man. My therapist validated my emotion but repeatedly warned me that it’s unethical or dangerous to inappropriately deal with a married man. So my limerence was basically untouched during this therapy.
I solute your determination to quit your job over night, I probably would be emotionally or even physically “paralyzed” if I did that. The part I did not get from your story is: is your LO unavailable or single? Why do you think he keeps reaching you out if the former?
So you’ll be leaving your job in a year and thus the regular contact with LO, and you’re now dreaded the final departure pain from LO? In addition, your father just sadly passed away, and you found you’re strongly drawn to contacting LO again, and you’re projecting all your “life hurts” onto a complete loss of LO?
Also, if you’re married (with a young child?), where is your SO in those situations? Is it possible to enlist him to be your aid and support?
I hope you keep feeling better as time goes by…
Beth, we’re with you in your sorrows. Death is a finalization that leaves one wondering what life is all about. A time for reflection. Don’t know what to say about contacting lo, depends on the closeness of the relationship you two have. But if you fear it will start fueling your limerence it’s better to keep away; you don’t need to deal with more hurt right now while you’re vulnerable.
Strength and peace of mind to you and a strong hug.
Thanks Nisor you are so kind and insightful. I explained my LE to Snowphoenix above. I saw pictures of my dad when he was younger and LO resembles him a bit. I get so easily pulled back into LE. It’s like an addiction. LO likes attention and seems to have a lot of female friends and women he helps. I think I’m one of many. To honor my marriage I need to stay away.
Thanks so much. This place is the best!
My condolences, Beth! Losing a parent eventually is inevitable but never easy. My dad passed several years ago. It took a while to stop waking up crying in the middle of the night. Once upon a time, they were our whole world.
Hi Beth, nice to hear from you despite the sad circumstance. I’m very sorry for your loss. It must be difficult days for you. When my father passed away – the worst period in my life – I was very clingy in the first couple of days reaching out to friends I’d not spoken to for ages, expecting them to stop their life for me in my grief – not sure why. At that time no LO or knowledge of limerence but still attachment issues maybe. It’s a strange time that you just need to let it play out and grieve and release any emotions you have & it’s ok. Maybe seek support from one or two people like a close relative of good friend to help with dealing with the intensity of the situation and to distract from the desire to connect with LO. Maybe put in the diary in X weeks to mssge LO and not before ( maybe less painful that way ). I dunno if I’m really the right person to give advice as I’m all over the place myself, but I do feel you and know a bit about the pain of grief of a beloved father and of course these pesky struggles with dealing with LE. One day, the next day and onwards…..
Take care of you and take time off work/duties and dont feel guilty to do some nice things for yourself, your father would like that you do that sort of thing ….. heartfelt best wishes to you X
Thank you so much IMHO! You hit the nail on the head. I also feel compelled to reach out to all of these people. It also hurts to think of the friends I thought would be there but aren’t.
I feel clingy too right now and have attachment issues. I’m going to make a list of activities I want to do and pick one when I’m struggling. Thank you for kindness!
Hi Beth…..I hope you are doing ok. I feel a bit of a connection with you. I remember having to shop everywhere for a perfect dress for my father’s funeral, although I didn’t really need one and many odd behavioural things. Just let whatever you are feeling / wanting play out. It’s ok, we are special sensitive types. if you experience Autumn / Fall season right now I feel this song is so in tune if it doesn’t make you too sad. This is the first time I share a song here on LwL. I love it so much and hope you do too.
Justin Haywood – Forever Autumn https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XEuB-u8OWVI
That’s a great song. It’s from Jeff Wayne’s “War of the Worlds” album.
I saw Justin do it on “American Bandstand” in 1980. Justin told Dick Clark that Jeff Wayne called him and said he had a song he wanted Justin to do for the album. Justin went to the studio, took a look at it, and did it in one take. The next time that I was in a record store, I bought it.
I saw Justin perform it in concert about 10 years ago. He sounded just as good.
Thank you that’s a beautiful song! I appreciate that. I like that to give myself permission to feel and be in this autumn season. I’m sorry you had to go through this pain as well. I’m kind of numb and in disbelief
Hi L. Emeritus. Thanks for the fun facts on Moody Blues. They are a bit before my time but love their sound. Also love the whole ‘war of the worlds’ album with Richard Burton. Great that you experienced seeing Justin Haywood singing live ! Very special I’m sure !
Hi Beth,
You said “I’m kind of numb and in disbelief”
I feel you. It’s normal and will take time. You are dealing with a lot and you already achieved so much and are very resilient. You experienced the loss of your mom before too and changed jobs to do the right thing to try to overcome your LE. All this before your current new grief. Seriously, be kind to yourself of how much you have dealt with and admirably coped with. Lean into your SO and those you love and fully trust, tell them you need them to help give you strength and love and support right now. Deserve it ? You do. Best wishes
@Snowphoenix,
You seem to tilt toward the metaphysical. Have you read:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/can-limerence-explain-twin-flames/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-limerence-is-a-better-explanation-than-twin-flames/
And, something to listen to while you’re reading them:
“Shooting Shark” – Blue Oyster Cult (1983)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCllXJLyrdU
LO #2 and I started dating in 1983. I love this song. In January, 1988, I could have written it.
@Limerence Emeritus
Why do you think I sound like tilting to the Metaphysical, the concept of which is still hard for me to understand.
I’ve read both articles and definitely leaning on limerence is a better explanation that twin-flame theory, which is almost impossible for me to believe. I did not grow up with a strong spirituality of any kind, but atheism and materialism.
The 5-second glimmer for LO#1, #4, and #7 felt like coming from another life/universe, the last one was the strongest one. The reality has proved my initial instinct was wrong again (also right sometimes), but I could not shake off such a stubborn intuition. Now, I’ve stopped fighting for a white-or-black answer, just let it sit quietly in my system.
Not everything in life can be explained either by science or metaphysics or whatever….
The lyrics of song are fascinating. Thank you for posting.
@Snowphoenix.
I’m beginning to think that limerence all boils down to one thing: the question of emotional significance.
One’s LO may be a good person. One’s LO may be a bad person. One’s LO may be a so-so person. It really doesn’t matter what kind of person one’s LO is. What matters is this person – the LO – has taken on a staggering “emotional significance” in the life and mind of the limerent.
In mutual limerence, the feelings are returned, so the two parties are extremely emotionally significant to each other for a time – until pair-bonding can take place.
In one-sided limerence, the feelings aren’t returned, so the limerent doesn’t have a staggering emotional significance for the LO, and the LO may not be aware of the emotional significance they have for the limerent.
Even if disclosure takes place in the second scenario, the LO may not understand the implications of the limerent’s disclosure i.e. they still may not grasp the strength of the limerent’s “crush”, the intensity of desire involved, the size of the stakes. (Hint: winning LO’s affection is the only thing that matters to the limerent).
In making any decisions, I think it’s very important for limerents to remember that they may not hold the same emotional significance for their LOs as their LOs hold for them. The biggest mistake limerents can make is assuming that both parties are on the same page regarding emotional significance and assign the exact same significance to the “bond”. 😉
Snow, Sammy
Re: debate three, on limerents being friends with lo.
Good stuff going on there. Like the genie is out of the bottle..
One thing, among others, I noticed Sammy said: “ I was so consumed with my own sorrow I didn’t want to witness or hear about other people’s sorrows. I think is a side effect of limerence. One’s natural sympathy for others’ sorrows can become temporarily muted because one’s own sorrows feel so great.”
I’m 100% on that!!!
I was in such a pain during those ten months of frenzy limerence that I couldn’t properly comfort one of my best friends who was going through a rough /betrayal divorce. I couldn’t tell her I was going through the throes of limerence, but that I was feeling sad about other things. I just didn’t want to hear about anybody else’s problems or needs, I was so consumed with debilitating pain I just couldn’t help it; I couldn’t share!
It was not like me… I felt so selfish and guilty!
Limerence is such a treacherous thing to happen to anyone.
At one point I even questioned what’s the purpose of me living, I just wanted to die. But now I’m in better shape and only hope that time will do its miracle part. Just waiting patiently like a good girl…
A great weekend to everyone.❤️
I think I’m moving out of the limerence stage now, though the crush is clearly mutual. I don’t know if he is limerent, but I think he was a few months ago. I remember only one thing that could get my mind off the limerence in the midst of it, and that was an awful situation going on back then. It was so hard to care about anything else. Now I’m starting to think and care about other things again. It’s a relief.
@Sammy,
“One’s LO may be a good person. One’s LO may be a bad person. One’s LO may be a so-so person. It really doesn’t matter what kind of person one’s LO is. What matters is this person – the LO – has taken on a staggering “emotional significance” in the life and mind of the limerent.
True. In my case, it’s not even LO, but the Phantom of LO, or my unreasonable desire for LO, that “has taken on a staggering emotional significance” in my life. Sometimes it felt like that LO did not enter my conscious life, but he came from my unconscious somehow through the glimmer — it’s that degree of familiarity and alienation! It also “lends credence to the notion that our LOs are really just anima/animus projected outwards.”
“In one-sided limerence, the feelings aren’t returned, so the limerent doesn’t have a staggering emotional significance for the LO, and the LO may not be aware of the emotional significance they have for the limerent.”
Well, I think even when the limerent’s emotions aren’t returned, some of us still have a staggering emotional significance for LO, but we hide and repress our emotions. Most of LOs, in LwL, seem to be aware of “the emotional significance they have installed in their limerent”, because most of us are poor concealers or over-sharing confessors. Plus, our eyes have revealed a lot what we fear to expose.
“Even if disclosure takes place in the second scenario, the LO may not understand the implications of the limerent’s disclosure i.e. they still may not grasp the strength of the limerent’s “crush”, the intensity of desire involved, the size of the stakes. (Hint: winning LO’s affection is the only thing that matters to the limerent).”
As long as LOs are ignorant of the conception of limerence, they WILL not “grasp the strength of the limerent’s “crush”…. If I choose to disclose to LO about my limerence with him, I’ll have to give him a copy of DrL’s book to read first.
“In making any decisions, I think it’s very important for limerents to remember that they may not hold the same emotional significance for their LOs as their LOs hold for them. “
As Marcia has repeatedly point out, if LO were in mutual loving affection for limerent, she or he would have already acted out, whether barriers existed or not, like what my middle-school classmate attempted. If they have done nothing, not even hint, then just believe they don’t have that glimmer or our dreamed affections for us limerents.
“The biggest mistake limerents can make is assuming that both parties are on the same page regarding emotional significance and assign the exact same significance to the “bond”.
As a semi Stoic, I don’t make such an assumption with realistic LO, I take the worst for a fact and practice how to cope with such an assumed fact. But the created Phantom is on the same page with me doing whatever I have wished, and has even inspire me to make friends and bonds with you guys here!
“I was in such a pain during those ten months of frenzy limerence that I couldn’t properly comfort one of my best friends who was going through a rough /betrayal divorce. I couldn’t tell her I was going through the throes of limerence, but that I was feeling sad about other things. I just didn’t want to hear about anybody else’s problems or needs, I was so consumed with debilitating pain I just couldn’t help it; I couldn’t share! It was not like me… I felt so selfish and guilty!”
@Nisor.
Yes. Sometimes limerence can reach a point where it definitely feels like a fire is burning inside one or something, and not in a good way, but in an out-of-control way. The pain is just so debilitating. 😢
Snow Phoenix I couldn’t reply so starting it down here. I’m quoting you so I can respond.
“ So you’ll be leaving your job in a year and thus the regular contact with LO, and you’re now dreaded the final departure pain from LO? In addition, your father just sadly passed away, and you found you’re strongly drawn to contacting LO again, and you’re projecting all your “life hurts” onto a complete loss of LO?
Me: I left the job over 2 years ago but it’s at the school my child attends so no escaping LO. We will be done at the end of the school year so a whole new level of grief. Yes my father just passed and I want to connect with LO . Probably for comfort and to not face the grief. I got emotionally dependent on him during LE after loss of my mom which he said I could no longer go to him for emotional support. I think the LE happened because initially LO was so supportive and I falsely believed he could take away my pain by his support. Now in addition to grieving both parents also grieving LO. I’ve been low contact since I quit the job but can’t fully avoid him. My LO is married so it’s an awful situation. He said everything was just professional to him. It was confusing as he used to say call or text him anytime. He even invited me over once but I didn’t go as my counselor told me never to be alone with him.
Also, if you’re married (with a young child?), where is your SO in those situations? Is it possible to enlist him to be your aid and support?
I told my husband what happened and how I disclosed etc. He doesn’t like to talk about it much. He’s not one to talk about emotions etc so I am trying to get his support. He’s more of a practical support person like doing the laundry. I’m hoping counseling helps and I might join a grief group.
I still struggle with guilt of leaning on LO and disclosing to him. Plus that I still struggle. Not sure why he still contacts me. Sometimes I think he knows he crossed professional boundaries and feels bad and just wants to make sure I am ok. Yes out stories sound similar. It’s so hard to get over these LEs. I’ve had many but none like this one. I thinks it’s because of all the conversations and sharing of emotions and thoughts on both sides. Very dangerous!! At least I found out what limerence is and am trying to find my way out.
I hope you keep feeling better as time goes by…
Are you missing your LO?
Does it seem you don’t
want to live without LO?
Song:
Mariah Carey, “ I can’t live if living is without you “- lyrics”
A very beautiful song and interpretation.
“Are you missing your LO?
Does it seem you don’t
want to live without LO?”
Story of my life Nisor..
@Beth,
Now, I get your story better. With 2 SOs involved, your LE is much tougher to handle than just 1 or 0 SO involved.
Please don’t berate yourself for leaning on or disclosing to your LO, it’s so understandable what you and I did right after our loss of parents. It’s our normal human vulnerability; the milk was already spilled, let’s clean it up mentally and move on. LO is not a devil by any standard; otherwise, we’d never gone to them or they us.
My psychological tool of dealing with pains, any type, is Stoicism and Buddhism combined (they overlap in some principles), please forgive my preaching, particularly considering that I did not apply both well enough in my case, which led my further LE suffering and other cptsd related pains.
From Stoicism and Buddhism , I’ve learned and am convinced by reality that only MYSELF can and have to find ways to battle with whatever was/is causing my pains, and ultimately ON MY OWN, remove their roots and symptoms.
Pains, physical or psychological, come from without and within, but suffering caused by them are generated only within and thus can only be eliminated from within. Wise, external insights from books and people could help a great deal with their different perspectives understanding the same elephant in the room, but the hard work and efforts of curing sufferings still need to be made by oneself.
Some people take medication, some go to AA groups, and I do meditation that works well for me. I really hope by exploring, you’ll find the most effective way to YOU, to assist you through this painful grief period. There is NOWHERE or NO-ONE else can take away your pain for you! (Sorry if I sound too hush to point out the cruel reality!)
Sometimes, just sit quietly with pains when they arise within, and tell yourself: my pain is here again… it’s intense, it’s nature… C’est la vie — outside rain is pouring !… “ Then try to locate the pain inside your body and stay there, “this pain is making my stomach churning… chest going spasm, or… “ Then internally “watch” the pains…. Trust me, if you can endure physical discomfort, not immediately reach for something else (eg. food or drinks) to release, they will go away by your tough, fearless “stares”. I did not believe this method when taught initially, but after a couple of practices, it worked.
Last, not least, come here to write out whatever is going on in your mind; writing (somewhat organized) is a very effort therapy!
Best of luck!
To the dear mother of my children
While you slept I confessed a lot. I am sorry for what I put you through. Remember when finances were so bad a bucket or Popeye’s chicken was our anniversary celebration? I remember that because we argued about biscuits or mac & cheese for a side lol. I spent the last 2 hours confessing things to while you slept because of your migraine.
I’m sorry. I remember our 19 year anniversary. For the sake of others I will leave out the details but wow what a time. If I remember right one of those youngins almost ran us over when we were walking on one of those motorized scooter things you millenials like lol We were just walking to get something to eat.
Momma surprised me with something. I’ll leave it at that. Her father and step mother had taken care of the kids for the weekend so we were good. We parked the truck in the parking garage and we checked into the hotel and walked through downtown going wherever we wanted to. It is my favorite memories of Momma. (We have video evidence. She’s going to smoother me in my sleep if she she reads this.)
I spent the last hour or so, while she sleeps with a migraine confessing out loud. About Morgan, about why I feel it happened. How much I love her. How much I would like to be imitate with her but I understand why it is an issue. She looked so beautiful while she slept. I got very man feelings looking at her. But I am very not sober and you can’t believe the amount of time and autocorrect this post went through.
When I met her grandmother I remember that I called her Betty. It was her first name. She insisted that I called her “grandma”. I said “but you aren’t my grandma” to which she replied “yes I am.” I miss her. She accepted me despite us meeting online in 1999.
L.E.
I get it. Watching a lady sleep. Gonna go watch her sleep now. Fall asleep very drunk and by her side.
I can definitely say my long term LE began with her eyes!!! 100%. To this day nothing has impacted me like the moment I looked into her eyes.
Yes the eyes!!! That is all I could see because of covid masking. Well, other than her rear. And she was my size. Both have SO’s. Gave her nearly all my uniforms and associated gear, because I was leaving after 35 years. Thought it would be over when I left. Someone gave her my number.missed her dearly.texted only.sent her gifts because I could not be there. It was at the point of hate me or date me…then NC for 9 months. Thank you Jesus…she hates me…then she texted me…BOOM…sent her a gift and thought what am I doing.I must be mentally ill! Found this .com. what a relief. This site has helped me 100%. Trying to go NC with short one word texts and I feel her doing the same thing. It hurts bad but anything with value, real or imagined, will take it’s toll on you.
My LE also began with eye gazing with a (him) straight face initially, then 1 year later now with smiles on our faces, and he uses a soft voice to greet me that he doesn’t with others. He panics when I ignore him; but we’re both married, and I want to cry when he doesn’t come to work: when he’s at work and we’re eye to eye contact, I feel so high.