Here’s an interesting video about rumination and intrusive thoughts:
It’s good overall, but there were a couple of stand-out points for me.
1. Rumination and intrusive thoughts are different
When thinking about limerence, there are a number of overlapping concepts that might be better understood as separate issues.
Early on in limerence, thoughts about LO are generally very enjoyable and exciting. They take the form of fantasising about being close to them, remembering times when you had a good interaction with them, and planning for the next time you can see them.
We can call this phase “limerent reverie”, because it’s a pleasurable sort of daydreaming, and a way of getting mentally closer to LO when you can’t actually be together.
This is also a cause of limerent reinforcement, because the reverie is really rewarding. It can be such a blissful experience that limerents deliberately seek alone time so they can cut out external distractions and disappear into their warm and fuzzy internal fantasy world.
As time goes on, however, the nature of this reverie can shift. Once we have progressed from euphoria about the wonderfulness of LO, towards uncertainty about their feelings for us, the reverie can become more anxious and discomforting.
This is what I would term “rumination”, and has closer parallels to the scenarios outlined by Dr Marks in the video. During rumination, daydreaming takes the form of analysing events, reliving and rehashing old arguments and worries, and generally getting caught in thought cycles that are not pleasurable.
An example would be having a kind of running argument with yourself after a negative interaction with LO:
Why did she cancel lunch on Wednesday?
I think she might be going off me
Like when she seemed cold when I bumped into her in the store last week
Urgh, yeah, she definitely seemed like she had to cover her surprise with a fake smile
But she seemed happy once we got talking, and she suggested a coffee after we’d finished shopping. She wouldn’t do that if she was trying to dump me.
But maybe that’s because she’s such a caring person, not because of the way she feels about me.
But there was that time after work when she sought me out and wanted a hug. She held me so close and that was real, I’m sure.
In fact, I can still remember her smell, and the feeling of her pressed against me…
etc. etc.
Those thought loops resemble the kind of ruminations that anxious or depressed people struggle to cope with too. There can still be highs, and we can still use rumination for mood repair, but there is a noticeable shift from happy fantasy to obsessive analysis.
Finally, the last related experience in limerence is intrusive thoughts. This is the phenomenon when it becomes impossible to concentrate on what you are doing, because thoughts about LO push themselves into the front of your mind, unbidden.
Intrusive thoughts are involuntary, and don’t only occur when you are in idle moments with time to daydream. Intrusive thoughts flash into your mind, they prevent you from sleeping, they wreck your focus.
The important point from a neuroscience perspective is that these are functionally independent phenomena.
Reverie and rumination are generally voluntary processes, which are linked to the default mode network. Intrusive thoughts are generally linked to a failure to inhibit signals from the amygdala, making it hard to use your executive to suppress background worries or addictive impulses when you need to concentrate on something specific.
Things get muddled up when we use rumination/reverie as a coping strategy for soothing anxiety induced by intrusive thoughts, but it struck me as useful to realise that the strategies needed to counteract these two phenomena are likely to be different.
2. The value of distraction
The second important lesson from the video, in my opinion, is the value of distraction for breaking cycles of rumination. As Dr Marks puts it, the default mode network is most active when you are looking inward, rather than responding to sensory input.
That gives us an insight into why the classic distraction techniques of cognitive behavioural therapy can be useful for combatting rumination.
Forcing yourself to attend to an immediate stimulus (an elastic band snapped against your wrist, standing up and moving around, counting backwards from 10) is a way of derailing your rumination by interrupting your default mode network before it gets into a reinforcing groove.
From an evolutionary perspective, functions like analysing your previous experiences, speculating about the internal thoughts of another person, or rehearsing future encounters, are all lower priority than dealing with immediate physical action.
Rumination is a luxury in a world full of dangers, and you can exploit this fundamental aspect of brain function to your advantage as a way of overriding rumination that has become debilitating.
The idea of using simple “if/when” rules whenever you catch yourself ruminating works on this principle. If you notice the signs of rumination, you do something. You get active, you take a walk, or strike a yoga pose, or start on a chore. You suppress the default mode network by firing up the motor systems.
Sometimes thinking about thinking is constructive. It all adds more tactics to the toolkit when it comes to breaking the old habits that reinforce limerence.
Dr L,
You mentioned in your book
“Our intrinsic neurochemical systems are motoring along, busily altering our whole perception of the world”
Can you elaborate on the change in perception of the world. In what ways does limerence do that?
I covered the topic a bit in this post, Natalie, but yes, happy to write a bit more on how limerence messes with our perceptions. I’ll have a think on it.
Here’s another post that covers the ideas too:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-limerence-feels-so-good/
Dr L,
I’d love to see more posts on it. Because It is your posts that help me get through my limerence episodes.
I remember trying desperately to stop ruminating! I would count up the break through thoughts with a goal of less every day, I would yell out “no!” (When alone), I would try the negative reinforcement thing (rubber band, etc.). I wondered if the neural pathways were too deep to change. I had little success until I had managed a long stretch of NC, and no social media. The eventual mental relief is indescribable. Yay for neuroplasticity!!
Hi
What is NC?
Hi Dawny,
NC = no contact. There is a glossary of terms in the sidebar (or bottomless scroll on a mobile) with all the jargon summarised.
It’s a great feeling when you finally break free, isn’t it? 🙂
But sobering to realise that how much time and patience it takes to reverse all the mental training you accidentally put yourself through…
Yes Dr. L it is a great feeling!! And I have you to thank. It was providential to have stumbled on your site and it has contributed mightily to my recovery.
And yes, allowing the LE to develop was a massive err in judgement but never again! I hope I can help others to jump off the slippery slope of limerence so they don’t have to spend years later trying to deprogram !
My clinically trained psychologist/therapist told me 15 years ago the rubber band technique is so outdated, if another therapist ever suggested it, to stop seeing him immediately. Dr. Grayson in Pasadena, a world renowned expert on OCD related disorders has a well aged book on the topic of intrusive thoughts. Pushing them away NEVER works. Don’t fight them. Ever. Allow them to flow through you.
Available on Amazon.
The rubber band technique is a distraction method for rumination, not a counter to intrusive thoughts. It doesn’t really matter what the stimulus is, the rationale is that you disrupt the familiar habits of thought.
For me, any therapist that says you should stop seeing someone else immediately is pretty suspect.
Dr L
I’m a woman in my mid-50s and really freaked out to be thinking again about someone I was limerent for when I was young.
I hope this is a passing phase as I thought limerence didn’t come back!? It is pretty distressing.
Unless you recently made contact with your old “limerent object”, Dawny, I think this is a good example of how limerents use the old rewarding habits of reverie to try and soothe mood in the present.
Here are a couple of posts that might help shed light on this:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/using-limerence-for-mood-regulation/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/deprogramming-the-limerent-brain/
Would reminiscence/nostalgia be the same mechanism stretching beyond the romantic department?
Hmm, I haven’t seen them for decades but did have some contact on social media for a while but I stopped last year.
Thanks Dr L – I shall read these right now!
Wow! That first post resonates!
I know why this particular episode struck – too much changed in life at once, and I didn’t have enough purpose left.
I’m taking steps, but I’m going to up my game now with a good old fashioned list of plans 🙂
Great video and blog DrL, thanks!
I concur that, as a long term regular practitioner of mindfulness and mediation, that it really helps. Both by bringing yourself out of your head as mentioned in the video, but also by training your mind to be more aware of your own thoughts and thus able to immediately challenge the harmful overly negative ones with raw facts and self-compassion.
Doesn’t always work of course, and intrusive thoughts are a completely different problem… for me these are the worst part my LE. What a huge mental relief it would be to not have these any more… envy you there Jaideux.
Hey Allie 1!
Well I couldn’t escape from my limerence episode for years and years and when I finally did it took a couple more to be myself again and now, finally, I am free.
I am prone to relapse so remain hyper vigilant. There is always a risk to return to the addiction! But we can escape and resist. 💪🏼 And be authentically happy!!
“be authentically happy”
I just love that phrase. It is the true goal for us limerents really isn’t it. Because even in those delightful, heart expanding, life affirming, stomach fluttering, giddy moments early in an LE, there is nothing real or authentic about the experience. It is just addiction.
Allie1,
You own happiness. It’s yours and only yours.
I disagree with you that there is nothing real or authentic. If the emotions are genuine, the experience is very real and authentic. If you and your LO are acting in good faith, the experience stands.
Have you read https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-loneliness-of-no-contact/ ? I think it’s one of DrL’s best blogs. There’s a section on disenfranchised grief that’s excellent.
Happiness isn’t a goal with established criteria. A lot of people think it is but it’s not. They set some arbitrary criteria that they think once they’ve achieved it that they’ll be happy. Happiness is unachievable. You approach it asymptotically. You can get really close but you actually never touch the line. We all decide how close is close enough for ourselves and what we’re willing to do and accept in pursuing it.
No one else can “make you happy.”
People can contribute to your happiness or they detract from it. Limerents tend to overemphasize what their LOs “contribute.” It consumes us. We place an inordinate amount of weight on their perceived contributions. Read that again. Perceived contributions. What has your LO tangibly offered you? Have they ever asked your for anything? Have you ever asked them for anything? Or, are you basing your feelings on implication and inference? When LOs fail to live up to our often unstated expectations, we can get really disappointed. Bad LO!
The only thing LO #4 ever asked of me was if I’d be a moderator on her website. The only things I asked of her was I would bounce the treatment plans doctors were recommending for my son who was experiencing almost crippling anxiety and depression off her. She’s a PsyD and acted as an unpaid second opinion. Hardly the stuff to build fantasies on.
For the first two years we were together, I was happier with LO #2 than I’d been in my life until I met her. She was the most important person in the world to me and contributed the most toward my happiness. Then, she became less of a contribution. After declining my marriage proposal, her remaining a part of my life began detracting from my happiness. In the end, she threatened to become a direct obstacle to my pursuit of happiness. That’s when she had to go.
There was a period of 6 weeks when LO #2 and my wife overlapped. I remember I was walking toward my car on a bright April afternoon and suddenly realizing the only person standing in the way of my happiness was me. I remember thinking that on one hand there was LO #2 who for the last two years had given me nothing but grief and when I asked her directly, said she never would. On the other hand was a woman who once she’d made her decision, busted her ass to do everything right. When LO #2 had a decision that would keep us apart or bring us together, she always chose the one that kept us apart. When my wife had the same type of choice, she always made the one that brought us together.
I’d gotten to my car and thought, “Why is this even a question in your mind?”
Years later, when my wife and I were contemplating possible divorce, she asked me if I wanted to be married to her. I told her, “I don’t know.” I told her that I didn’t think I’d necessarily be happier anywhere else and with anyone else but I wasn’t happy here. We’d ceased to contribute to each others’ happiness for a lot of reasons.
Maybe it was time to pursue happiness elsewhere.
“Happiness isn’t a goal with established criteria. A lot of people think it is but it’s not. They set some arbitrary criteria that they think once they’ve achieved it that they’ll be happy. Happiness is unachievable.”
@Limerent Emeritus.
A further complication to the pursuit of happiness dilemma I think is that attainment of happiness, even if theoretically possible, might mean completely different things to different people…
What if two people have fundamentally different (incompatible?) definitions of happiness?
For example, as a limerent, while in the midst of an LE, happiness for me would be getting LO to desire me – to show more and more signs of emotional reciprocation.
I’ve figured our my most troublesome LO, just like my father, is a confirmed (and self-confessed) people-pleaser. For a people-pleaser, happiness is making huge unnecessary sacrifices for others and reaping the reward in the form of gratitude and admiration. There’s something unconsciously manipulative and/or controlling about being a people-pleaser, and basing one’s whole identity in life on making others happy.
It’s interesting. I’m arguably a bad person because I was trying to manipulate my LO into loving me. But my LO was also trying to manipulate me for some totally unrelated reason. (As a people-pleaser, he craves approval from all and sundry and tries to make himself indispensable to others, until he finally succumbs to resentment because “everyone treats him like a doormat”).
In other words, I wasn’t being honest with LO and LO wasn’t being honest with me. There was no real intimacy in our bond – alas! We were both trying to trick the other person into meeting unmet needs. And yet this dynamic is only-too-common in many families, and then spills out into relationships outside the family unit…
I think Allie has brought up the idea of self-interest in the past (?). And, honestly, if there’s one group of people in society that could really benefit from embracing greater self-interest, it’s people-pleasers. People-pleasers give too much to other people, make too many sacrifices, and then stew in resentment afterwards. Yikes!
I can kind of understand now why I’ve never felt close to my father, despite him being a “nice person”. His need to be “nice” all the time and always show the world a smile makes honest communication with him about anything literally impossible. And it’s weird he sees me as just one more person who’s supposed to give him approval! I’m not a son to him. I’m an approval-dispensing vending machine! 😛
I think I’ve located the true source of all LO’s passive-aggressive behaviour and repressed anger, and why I may have been powerfully attracted to someone like this in the past – until realising such “niceness” isn’t really about me, but about LO’s low self-esteem and his desire to be liked by as many people as possible. 😛
Sammy,
Have you read:
https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
I’ve linked it before.
Philosophically, what is adult attachment? One could say it’s the attempt to secure a long term contribution to happiness.
Are you familiar with Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
It’s not universally accepted but it can be usefull.
Secure attachments attempt to meet needs above the line in Maslow’s diagram.
Insecure attachments attempt to meet needs below that line.
Schreiber talks all about insecure attachments. I think you might relate to it.
It’s just a theory. As H.L. Mencken said, it’s probably “…neat, plausible, and wrong.”
“Are you familiar with Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
Secure attachments attempt to meet needs above the line in Maslow’s diagram.
Insecure attachments attempt to meet needs below that line.”
Not true. All secure attachments (I would think all attachments full stop!) are an attempt to meet “Belonging and Love needs” which is below the line. Other needs also but that need is pretty central.
Ruminations and intrusive thoughts have a clinical definition of OCD as in Obsessive Compulsive disorder. Pure O is its derivative. Stress and uncertainty behind limerance can activate it.
There’s a post here you might find interesting about the similarities and differences between limerence and rOCD when it comes to intrusive thoughts, Ophelie:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/relationship-ocd/
Song of the Blog: “Groovy Kind of Love” – Wayne Fontana and the Mindbenders (1965)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jinZMqbS29M
Limerence is its own “Groovy Kind of Love.” And, the “beauty of it all,” is that once that limerent kernel is planted, you can do most of the work inside your own head! They can be handy keeping an LE alive but you could get by just fine for quite awhile coasting on memories.
If DrL let me know in advance what he was planning to publish, I could have a song ready. True, it would likely be from before 1995 but I could probably still find one.
“Levitating” by Dua Lipa. The current big hit that describes limerence.
“Reverie and rumination are generally voluntary processes, which are linked to the default mode network. Intrusive thoughts are generally linked to a failure to inhibit signals from the amygdala …”
Speaking from my own experience, reverie and rumination don’t really worry me. I enjoy reverie and rumination as a rule, as I have a thinker personality. Analysis comes naturally to me. I like to analyse everything. 😛
It’s only when I have intrusive thoughts that I desperately need and want external help with limerence, and view limerence as a problem in need of fixing. And I think most limerents would be in the same basket. One can learn to live with reverie and rumination. Intrusive thoughts are another matter altogether. So it’s good to make a distinction between the two phenomena.
The problem is sometimes Phenomenon A, reverie and rumination, can lead to Phenomenon B, intrusive thoughts, and it’s not always easy to pick when fantasies are going to spin out of control. One is thus gambling with one’s mental health. For example, I’ve engaged in reverie and rumination for a lot of prospective partners, reveries which never led to intrusive thoughts. So I guess these LEs didn’t get past the infatuation stage, and crystallisation never occurred. There just wasn’t enough positive feedback from the potential partners themselves…
I see intrusive thoughts as a characteristic of stage two of limerence, and I think this is the stage when people can experience suicidal impulses when separated from or denied access to their LO. So it’s quite a delicate situation, and getting the limerent out of the situation in one piece should be a top priority for mental health professionals. Perhaps the limerent too should be encouraged to give up their LO, if they haven’t done so already – the relationship is no longer functional or desirable for either party, in my opinion. Physical safety first.
So I was unable to inhibit signals from my amygdala during the worst part of my limerence? That makes sense. I felt like I was being bombarded or attacked by my own thoughts. I felt as if my brain was under siege. (I felt as if my brain was attacking itself even).
Also, I desperately wanted to cry/express emotion during this time, and couldn’t. The normal expression of emotion was inhibited somehow. (I believed if I could just burst into tears or something, I could let the pain out of my body and start healing, but my brain had other ideas at this time. The normally slightly-cool lake of my emotions “froze over”. My emotions became inaccessible even to me).
I believe there must be a very strong link between intrusive thoughts and self-destructive impulses, as it’s not normal for humans to compromise their own chances of survival. If there’s a part of limerence I don’t wish to experience ever again, it’s the intrusive thoughts part. I can cope with reverie/rumination.
Sorry if I sound emotional. I have a very emotional response to this particular topic, based on my own personal history. Intrusive thoughts = yuck!! 😛
I’m several months into NC now, and I notice that I’m most susceptible to intrusive thoughts about LO when I’m stressed. I don’t think of him upon waking as I did, but if my day is busy and I begin to feel overwhelmed the thoughts come. They can actual be quite paralysing, interrupting my intentions to plan through tasks and to do lists. On occasion they can still shut me down, though less so than before.
Another reminder I guess that whatever is going on its not about LO. Or sourced from LO (I never see or hear from them).
I wonder also what it says about the good old days when they were ‘positive’. In some senses the more you lose your own thread because of these thought processes the further you move away from being an attractive whole person…
… And the more transparently ‘needy’ or one dimensional your conduct towards LO becomes…
Just speaking for myself here. Though I wish the thoughts would just eff off. They are less painful, but more irritating.
I’ve started dehumanising it a bit. When I catch myself I very specifically try to tell myself ‘thinking about THAT (rather than ‘him’ is not what I need right now.’
On the other hand I recently went on holiday with two mates and kept wishing LO was with me. So it’s not exclusively a stress mechanism I suppose.
… Just annoying.
Hey Thomas,
You’re in the difficult phase. It will get better! I felt so empty and social things did not seem any fun without LO or at least knowing that I could tell him all about it on our next chat (which was several times a week if not every day).
But slowly but surely I am enjoying life more and more and while it’s not the desperate euphoria I once felt, I am starting to really enjoy life’s experiences for what they are and it’s empowering that they aren’t lashed to LO. They are my friends, my projects, my successes, my discoveries. It’s so refreshing to be clear headed and I do think if you stay the course you will soon rarely think of your LO and enjoy the moment – completely.
I’m not sure what your specific situation is, but for me, once I realized that limerence is a form of addiction, it made total sense why I was “running” to rumination (daydreaming about past interactions or imagining new ones) or fighting intrusive thoughts at any given time. As soon as I can put my behaviors, thoughts and actions in terms of my addictive tendencies, it was very clear why thoughts of LO come up when they do. Not sure if that’s helpful, it might just make sense to me in my particular situation!
@Beth.
Lovely to see you’re still here! I was worried maybe some tone-deaf response to something sensitive you shared might have scared you off…
I know sometimes the commentary can go off on intellectual tangents, and that might be alienating to people who come here mostly seeking emotional support. Sometimes people just want empathy and reassurance, and not masses of information or fiery debate. 😛
I think the INFPs on the board remind me that above all else we’re humans exploring our feelings and not academics dissecting dead mice. Limerence affects the lives of real people in real ways.
I am so happy you are still with us!! I find your comments refreshing and the flair with which you express your emotions to be beautiful (and enviable). 🙂
Sammy,
There have been a couple of sarcastic responses to my posts. Sometimes you have to ignore it.
And we aren’t all INFPs.
FYI several people on the community pages highly recommend the book below for dealing with limerent intrusive thoughts:
Overcoming Unwanted Intrusive Thoughts: A CBT-Based Guide to Getting Over Frightening, Obsessive, or Disturbing Thoughts by Sally M. Winston, Martin N. Seif
Not tried it yet myself but just bought in on Amazon!
Yes, it’s great. Mentions the amygdala quite a bit.
I have now read it and I can see it would be useful to many limerents but I didn’t find it especially useful for myself tbh. It was written for people who find their intrusive thoughts disturbing. Mine do not disturb me at all, they are highly seductive and pleasurable, yet at the same time unwanted and intrusive. A very different problem.
The “wise mind” techniques and general mindset were excellent (and effective), but nothing new that I wasn’t already practicing.
Dr L, it’s interesting, I’ve become quite interested in ketamine and psychedelics as a possible treatment for limerence and ruminative thoughts. In Michael Pollan’s book “How to Change Your Mind” he speaks in detail about the default mode network, and how it loses its dominion during psychedelic experiences. There’s also the resetting of sorts of glutamate receptors that takes place under such treatments. All very promising and interesting. Probably not a quick fix, but a possible component of treatment.