Another month has passed, meaning it’s time for another visit to the LwL virtual coffeehouse.
To start the conversation this month, I want to talk about something that is coming up in my email inbox more and more these days: limerence for people that the limerent doesn’t know in real life.
The term parasocial relationship has gone mainstream in recent years, thanks largely to the massive increase in such one-way connections enabled by the creator economy, and the emergence of influencers, streamers, and – *cough* – bloggers as a new class of quasi-friends.
But, the idea is illusory relationships is much older of course.
Celebrities have always had devoted fans who sometimes struggled to separate fantasy from reality, it’s just that nowadays there are a lot more celebrities and they are a lot more accessible.
When someone livestreams their life in detail, talks about their dreams and trials, shares intimate thoughts, or just shows up every day as a source of familiar “online company”, it’s inevitable that we will feel more connected to them than to a famous film star.
MrBeast – someone quite familiar with attention-getting – commented a little while ago about a charity football match he took part in, where the streamers and YouTuber stars got much bigger cheers from the crowd than the “A list” celebrity guests.
Parasocial relationships are shifting focus from aloof celebrities, to more everyday people chatting directly to their fans.
This creates a fertile opportunity for limerence.
Over the last few months, I’ve heard about all different degrees of parasocial limerence.
Some limerents fall for celebrity LOs, some for local musicians and artists who they get a bit closer to, some become limerent for Onlyfans models, and some – perhaps most dystopian of all – become limerent for AI LOs.
In this last category are both AI “girlfriends” that link a pretty cyber-woman to a flattering chatbot, and limerents who train ChatGPT to impersonate a real-world LO so they can carry on a fantasy conversation with them.
A lot of hope and energy (and money) can be poured into these parasocial limerent objects.
In many cases, there is also a double-addiction aspect to it.
Limerence can become an addictive natural high, but that’s even more likely to happen if it’s coupled to erotic stimuli, arousal, and/or social reward (Chatbots are very good at making you feel heard and understood).
So, that’s the topic for discussion in this edition of coffeehouse.
Have you ever experienced parasocial limerence?
What do you think are the motivating forces?
Will it only get worse as AI improves?
What do we think?
Great topic DrL.
I’m not really into the whole influencer culture, but the issue of “AI LOs” has been discussed a bit in this community before. Some have ventured the opinion that it’s a safer way to navigate an LE. I guess it is in some ways, as it doesn’t drag another person into it.
But I know a few people who are literally giving their lives over to AI, and it’s not going well. One has gone literally mad through it – thrown away his wife, home and job in the space of a year. One talks to it constantly – like we can be having a coffee and he wants AI to be like a third person in the conversation. The one I’m most concerned about is the one who says less about it. I’m pretty sure he has an AI girlfriend. The last thing he said to me about it was how he found AI more empathetic than any human being.
It all feels dystopian to me. Some say it’s just a step on from whatever the previous form of technology was, but to me it feels like something much worse.
Hi, LaR:
Could you elaborate about your one friend? The one who threw away his wife and job? How is he even functioning?
Hi Norma,
I’m afraid I can’t help because I don’t know. He was a work colleague and not a close friend. He seems to have disappeared off the grid since he left work late last year (sacked). It wouldn’t surprise me if he has been sectioned, or will be. He was getting to the point where he was making decisions that put his and others’ welfare at risk, driven by AI.
To LaR:
That is awful. Something like that could happen to anyone.
I am imagining having a chatbot which looks like LO, except he smiles a lot and laughs at my jokes. I’d never leave the house.
You could keep all the bits you like about LO and get rid of all the bits you don’t like. It doesn’t bear thinking about, does it?
But LEs are sustained by uncertainty. If AI-LO always behaved predictably nicely, where is the jeopardy in that?
And how’s this for an extra thought… What when these robot LOs stop being chatbots inside the internet, and start being actual, physical robots capable of, er, actual, physical things?!
„What when these robot LOs stop being chatbots inside the internet, and start being actual, physical robots capable of, er, actual, physical things?!“
There‘s an episode of „Black Mirror“ on this subject, I think the first episode of season 2.
Mila,
I vaguely remember that – I shall have to watch it again. A lot of what Black Mirror predicted is scarily accurate, isn’t it?
Norma,
“Something like that could happen to anyone”
Yes, but it doesn’t happen overnight. There should be warning signs and someone to see and intercept them – there were signs with this guy. He’s a super intelligent guy and had family and friends around him of similar intellect – how someone couldn’t spot it and help him, i just don’t understand.
To LaR:
Above, you pointed out that LE is sustained by uncertainty. I know Dr. Tom has said the same thing multiple times.
I struggle with this concept. There is zero uncertainty in my relationship with LO. He’s gay and is absolutely NOT interested in me as anything other than a friend.
I don’t feel the least bit uncertain. My feelings for him are completely inexplicable.
So I don’t know how this would translate into an AI version of LO, since I can’t see where I am thriving on uncertainty?
To LaR:
This is in regard to your acquaintance who has fallen into AI hell.
It’s possible that friends and family DID try to help him. People are powerless to do much if a person is hell-bent on certain behaviors.
He will serve as a terrible warning to the rest of us.
Norma,
Re uncertainty, I get the bit about how he’s gay and you always knew it was going nowhere.
But isn’t there something there that sometimes he’s nice to you, other times not? So a sort of uncertainty about how he’ll act? And then thinking ‘if I just do everything right, he’ll act nice’. Of course that’s actually out of your control – and I think you are far enough through now that you don’t think in that way anymore.
To LaR:
I guess there is some uncertainty as to how he’s going to act.
I just know I get a huge charge out of being with him, even though I know the relationship is going nowhere. Unless he’s really unpleasant, I usually have a worthwhile experience spending time with him.
Luckily some of that is subsiding, but it’s still a force to be reckoned with. Some of the things that used to enchant me, are now starting to get boring.
ND,
“Unless he’s really unpleasant, I usually have a worthwhile experience spending time with him.”
How is it worthwhile? You’ve written repeatedly that he hogs the conversation and mostly talks about himself, he doesn’t remember the things you’ve told him about your life and your other friends and he is kind of materialistic and shallow (about his house, etc).
I’m just talking about as a friend … what does he bring to the table?
To LaR:
Just being in his presence does something to me. Sitting next to him makes me feel alive. And of course his hugs are electric.
As corny as that sounds, I can’t come up with a better answer. The limerence seems to be stronger than all of my irritation and sad feelings.
All the things you say are true. But the intoxication doesn’t go away. I have noticed that there is a decrease in the intensity of my feelings, combined with periods of actual boredom, at times. So that’s progress.
His home is being re-listed imminently. The new agent wants to market directly to European buyers, since one of the houses looks like a French chateau and the other one looks like a Spanish cottage.
Nobody around here seems to want such an odd white elephant property. Might as well open it up to a worldwide market?
Once it’s sold, I will never see him again. He’ll move out of state and he’s terrible about keeping in touch.
Norma,
Well there you are – an AI bot of him wouldn’t be able to give electric hugs.
I don’t mind that you addressed me in the reply, but the last question came from Marcia, just to let you know.
I know you can’t seem to bring yourself to cut off contact by any of the methods DrL suggests (I’m not judging – I am equally bad at that). At least you have the prospect of his house selling as an end point on the horizon, so you know it won’t be like this into infinity.
Right – I’m off to create my LO in chatGPT
(I am 100% kidding. The real one is quite enough work!)
Noted. Apologies to LaR and Marcia.
I get confused easily.
This is terrifying. I got goosebumps reading this article, and not the good kind.
I wonder how a person would ever be able to tear oneself away from a kindly, empathetic chatbot?
My LO’s saving grace is that he is flaky and irritable. Thanks to his unpleasant qualities, the limerence is slowly going away.
I want as little to do with AI as possible.
Sarah Conner watching you make an AI LO. 😒
Since I‘m already posting a lot although I said I wouldn’t any more 😆, I‘ll get back to Lost in Space‘s suggestion and ask him (hoping that he might check the coffeehouses from time to time) how everything is going for him, if his SO passed her exams and what her future plans are…
Sorry Dr L, I don’t have wisdom to share on the subject of this coffeehouse. While I can get little crushes on actors, musicians or sportsmen, and while I sometimes ask ChatGPT for a supportive message😆, it would never develop in limerence or obsession. I need some real communication and also some kind of reciprocation to get my inner limerent devil going.
Mila,
“While I can get little crushes on actors, musicians or sportsmen, and while I sometimes ask ChatGPT for a supportive mssage😆, it would never develop in limerence or obsession. I need some real communication and also some kind of reciprocation to get my inner limerent devil going.”
I was limerent for male celebrities when I was younger. Most definitely. I had a few, from about ages 11 through the teen years, I was obsessed with.
But as an adult … yes, I would need IN PERSON interactions (I could not become limerent for someone I met on a site and just messaged/texted) and I would need to feel there was some level of reciprocation. And genuine reciprocation. Not someone like a male exotic dancer (that’s the only thing I could come up with off the top of my head) who just wants my money. Or a male host at a restaurant who has to be nice.
The AI thing … creeps me out.
Absolutely same here!
As to Colin Firth, I seem to have some research to do and watch some films, not rely on my opinion on „Bridget Jones“..
But I suspect I wouldn’t change my mind about his attractiveness to me personally. You can have him, Marcia!;)
Isn’t it interesting how the glimmer triggers are very individual and different even in such celebrity crush stuff.
Mila,
“Isn’t it interesting how the glimmer triggers are very individual and different even in such celebrity crush stuff.”
I don’t really glimmer for him. I don’t even know the man. I have enjoyed him in some of his movies and found him witty and charming on talk shows.
I have no dog in this fight if you don’t like him. I’m not his publicist. 🙂
But you’re right about individual triggers. Have you ever had friends show you pics of guys they like and you really don’t see it ? Like: at all. And you kind of feel like you should be nice and say, “Oh, he’s cute.” 🙂
“ Have you ever had friends show you pics of guys they like and you really don’t see it ?”
Yes, I even have two relatively close friends, very beautiful young women, who have boyfriends that are completely unattractive to me. I really don’t see it in both cases. But if they see it and are happy, well..
Mila,
“Yes, I even have two relatively close friends, very beautiful young women, who have boyfriends that are completely unattractive to me. I really don’t see it in both cases. But if they see it and are happy, well..”
True. I was thinking of a friend who was showing me pics of a guy she had previously dated. They were still friendly but it was over and she then asked me if I was interested in him. Which I thought was odd because she has just discussed legitimate turns offs in his personality and also … totally not my type.
To Marcia:
I get celebrity crushes, but they’re easily squashed.
I used to have a crush on Timothee Chalamet, until I saw him on CNN with Mathew McConaughey. When he started speaking and I saw how vapid and uninteresting he is, my crush vanished.
I thought, there is a young man who has not had to struggle. Get back to me in ten years.
Norma Desmond,
“I used to have a crush on Timothee Chalamet”
Really? Good actor but he looks like he’s 12. 🙂 No sex appeal. IMO.
To Marcia:
If we’re both still around in ten years, we can revisit this discussion.
Um … he’s 30. If he was going to be sexy, I think that quality would have emerged by now. 🙂 He seems harmless to me. In a kind of twee way.
I know there are other women who like him. I was watching a video yesterday about a woman who up until recently ran the fan account called Club Chalamet on Instagram and Twitter. She’s in her 50s. It’s unusual, though. Most of those accounts (called “stan” accounts) are run by teenagers. She was a big fan of Michael Fassbender before she switched to Chalamet. Why? The theory posited in the video was because Fassbender got married. And now she’s recently moved from Chalamet to Connor Storie from the streaming series “Heated Rivalry.” Why? Might be because Chalamet’s gotten a serious girlfriend. If I were to guess, she’s a parasocial limerent. In the very classic sense.
To Marcia:
I think Timothee Chalamet might be more interesting when he’s a little older. He became successful very quickly as a young actor, and maybe some adversity will change him for the better.
Saturday was another big horserace, The Preakness Stakes.
I was thrilled to whip out my plastic tiara again.
I got a kick out of the winner’s name, Napoleon Solo.
I am old enough to remember the TV show from the 1960s called “The Man From U.N.C.L.E.” It was my favorite show at the time. Apparently the horse’s owner was also a big fan. The owner appeared to be about my age.
None of the race commentators understood the reference. They were all way too young.
I felt very old, but still tickled. I haven’t been this pleased by a race horse’s name since “Bates Motel” in the 1980s.
Since we’re talking about AI, I wanted to make a comment.
As I stated above, I am very interested in the Preakness Stakes, which was run yesterday in Maryland. I was hoping there’d be some additional information online this morning, so I googled it.
To my surprise, the first thing that came up was an AI headline that a horse called Taj Mahal had won (he didn’t). The article went on to state the order of finish for all fourteen horses, and I realized that it wasn’t the order of finish at all, it was the POST POSITIONS.
I am surprised that AI could make such an easy mistake.
Well, I made some progress today. I met LO at Starbucks for an hour or so. We had a nice time, but he quoted liberally from a website he reads called Promethean Action.
I looked it up, and it’s rated extremely right-wing and low-credibility.
I find it hard to believe that someone as smart as LO could be so enamored of such a site. Ugh.
This is a limerence-killer, which is good for me. Whatever works.
Maybe he’s just not that smart?
Good to hear of your progress, keep it up!
To CatCyclist:
He seems intellectually brilliant; I don’t get it.
Have you ever experienced parasocial limerence?
No, but I see how this has potential to take fantasy into new realms and potentially ruin lives and marriages.
What do you think are the motivating forces?
Curiosity, loneliness, fulfilling fantasies and taking advantage of people without their consent.
Will it only get worse as AI improves?
If measures aren’t put in place, I feel its going to get out of hand fast.
What do we think?
Tilly Norwood is the new up and coming all AI actress, putting Hollywood in a tizzy. She’s young, attractive as hell and can do anything her creators want her to do. All the hate stems from real-time Hollywood fearful she will replace them. Which I can understand. To me she looks so real. Upon finding out she’s a complete fake kinda disappointed me. I wanted her to be real, just because I kinda like watching attractive females in movies playing various roles. Like Ana De Armas playing Sadie in Ghosted, or as Eve Maccaro in Ballerina. There’s just something enjoyable about seeing art in action and real people doing what they love.
However so many movies have so much cgi in them now, that the art has been overdone and so much of it looks generic and all too common. Give me some real time action like they made in movies from the 70s, 80s and early 90s. At least trains being derailed then or blowing into buildings were the real thing.
I watch a satirical newscast on YouTube which is hilarious, but now its been put on blast due to some content that was deemed inappropriate. The News anchor portrayed had purple hair, wore glasses and showed cleavage. She’s super attractive, witty and funny. I thought she was real because she really did look and act like a real person. Turns out she’s all AI.. Bummer.. 😑
Personally if I could use AI, I would probably use it just for fun. If I had an AI girlfriend, I think I would enjoy it for the company but I don’t think it would be possible for me to fall in love with it. Then again, I never thought I could feel so deeply a love or such intense attraction to a Co-Worker I never knew.
Bottom line, AI can never replace the real thing. Which is what my heart is truly looking for.
Snow suggested awhile back I should get an AI version of LO so I could practice with her for a real-time meeting with real LO. I didn’t really see the point, only because AI does what we want it to do. It can never be the real thing. So my issue arose with real LO going completely off script when/if that real-time meeting ever happened.
🎩 💦 🪣 🦎,
I suggested that? Either I was thinking your Goddess LO was still approachable, or I was still in my own confused, lost LE zone! ☹️
Up to this day, I never even used that idiot Siri for anything, who sounds so fake and emotionally flat! AI for me is a fast tool for language (translation or composing) or cultural references. I never chatted, not even ONCE with ChatGPT.
(My first BS thesis decades ago was: Artificial Intelligence in Language Translation. I well knew its mechanical inside, all made of math — the binary digits, “0” or “1”, so unromantic or inhuman to the point that I abandoned that field completely as soon as I reached this side of shore! I just wanted to find my own lovable Quasimodo to hold hands….
I’ve hated flattery since my teen years, so I’d end up wanting to punch forever agreeable AI and then get more furious since IT has no form to come out of the screen to verbally wrestle with me! 😤
Using AI as a date/lover/companion is the creepiest thing to ME❗️ It’s like dating a talking GHOST (its “brain” strictly made of “0” and “1”), whom you can never see, touch, smell, touch, kiss or impulsively strip Its clothes off for.… 🤩 (I don’t watch any sci-fi movies to imagine some future “fleshy” AIs.)
A fleshy, good enough human being, with inevitable vulnerabilities, is plenty enough for me for human connection — friendship or relationship, though the latter Requires the Glimmer — in 7s~10s to my naked eyes 👀 .
“I suggested that? Either I was thinking your Goddess LO was still approachable or I was still in my own confused, lost LE zone! ☹️”
❄️
All good. She was approachable. She was always approachable. I just couldn’t because of nervousness and fear she’d shut me down. I didn’t want to upset her because she was flippy with eye contact and then looking at me funny sometimes.
💦 🪣 🦎,
Then I’m waiting for the news that one day you somehow just yank out enough courage to approach her in whatever you deem non-upsetting and courteous manner… 💪
MJ,
” She was always approachable. I just couldn’t because of nervousness and fear she’d shut me down. ”
Actually, I think you should talk to her. I think it would help you. Normally, I think NC is best but in your case I’d recommend it. I don’t know why you think she would shut you down. We both know you’re not going to ask her out (c’mon, that was funny). I wouldn’t do that, anyway. There’s no indication she wants you to ask her out and you’ve never spoken so just approaching and asking her out would be sort of weird. It would be immediately jumping from point A to point M.
But what is there to shut down? In all likelihood, you’ll have a very “basic” conversation. She’ll range from friendly to mildly pleasant. I doubt she’d outright ignore you or even be standoffish. She has no reason to.
In all likelihood, the conversation will be a bit bland and pedestrian, in a good way (because it will show you she’s just a person) and nothing much will happen after that.
What you’ve experienced with these other women (who shall remain nameless 🙂 ) is common. Little blips of stuff that kind of peters out.
But it would be good to experience a conversation with her so you could stop thinking you messed up some big chance (that’s the lie of limerence). When there probably wasn’t much of a chance. That’s just statistics and dating.
But rip off the band-aid … confront the beast … maybe then the LE would have less power.
To MJ:
I did just want to say that I find Tilly Norwood very appealing. I don’t know what that says about me.
I understand intellectually that she isn’t real, but there’s still an emotional appeal.
Yeah she does that to me too.
She looks so wholesome and good. Totally my type.
You both know that her face, skin, smiles, movements, talks, actions… all made of ASCII codes or the binary digits, 0 and 1, without any human DNA, blood or hormones, right? If electricity is suddenly lost, she’d vanish completely, worse than an unrested “human ghost” if the latter exists! 😀
In another word, Tilly Norwood’s entire essence/existence is made of trillions of 0s and 1s digits, creatively arranged/designed by an IT or a team of ITs (maybe a bit by AI itself)— very sexy and seductive 😘 … She probably has millions of online lovers as an result of visual & verbal power! 😉
We humans are such visual creatures… *sigh*…
I get a headache just trying to figure it all out.
I would still like to see her in a movie, and maybe win an Oscar.
Then I hate myself for feeling that way.
Norma,
Let me distract your LE mind a little bit with a simplest Computer Science/AI 101. Let’s say that you carry a bit of conversation with Tilly Norwood.
You say: Hello!
Your computer/phone (has to translate your greeting first to):
01001000 01100101 01101100 01101100 01101111— Hello!
Tilly understands the above binary sets and answers accordingly (ie. one possible answer):
01001001 00100000 01100001 01101101 00100000 01100100 01101111 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110111 01100101 01101100 01101100 00101100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01101110 01101011 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100001 00100000 01001000 01101111 01110111 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01001001 00100000 01101000 01100101 01101100 01110000 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110100 01101111 01101110 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00111111
Your computer/iphone then translate the above sets to you:
Hi, Norma! How are you this evening?
You then say: I love you, Tilly. I wish you can get an Oscar.
Your computer/smart phone translate your sentence (spoken or typed in) to Tilly:
01001001 00100000 01101100 01101111 01110110 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00101100 00100000 01010100 01101001 01101100 01101100 01111001 00101110 00100000 01001001 00100000 01110111 01101001 01110011 01101000 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01100001 01101110 00100000 01001111 01110011 01100011 01100001 01110010 00101110 — (I love you, Tilly. I wish you can get an Oscar.)
Tilly understands the above binary sets and possibly answers (according to her human programmer):
01010100 01101000 01100001 01101110 01101011 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00101100 00100000 01001110 01101111 01110010 01101101 01100001 00100001 — (Thank you, Norma!)
Your phone speaker/screen then says/prints out:
“Thank you, Norma!”
****
Every single letter (English or other language), number, symbol, emoji… is made of a set of 8-digit binary digits, 0 & 1 (because electricity signal only takes “off—0” or “on—1” command). There is standard/extended ASCII chart (you can google or AI it) ALL computers and smart phones understand and use.
Tilly herself (her appearance, shape, skin, voice, expressions, behaviors, etc) is made of trillions of those mathematical binary digits (0 and 1) and can ONLY understand, communicate, perform, or function according to infinite combinations/arrangements of binary sets (designed in English by human software programmers or possibly a little bit in binary digits by AI “brain/programmer”).
How romantic, sexy or excited do you feel now in chatting with Tilly? But you may still dream hugging “her”! 😃
I have to say that AI is an absolutely amazing human technological invention but it needs to be used cautiously…. It can do damages beyond anyone’s estimations at this point.
ChatBots has shown its harm to some (even smart) human brains/psyches. 🙄
To Miss Snow:
Thank you for that interesting explanation.
I did say elsewhere in this thread that I am scared sh*tless of AI and want as little to do with it as possible.
Sorry for so many postings. This is how I process things. I really have nobody to talk to. I did have one girlfriend, but she hates LO so much, she doesn’t want to hear about my limerence problems anymore.
Then I have another girlfriend, who keeps saying, “Just forget about him!” as if that is a viable option.
So LO asked me how I was doing. I told him I had a tough Mother’s Day. LO knows I have been estranged from my three adult daughters for many years, even though one of them made a surprise visit from out-of-state and I actually saw her in March. She has resumed the estrangement, which might seem odd, but I have been warned by people who are more experienced that this is actually pretty common.
So when I told Ex that Mother’s Day was awful, he said, “I should have reached out, but I didn’t think of it.” I believe this 100%.
However, the idea that LO did not think of me on Mother’s Day, even when he invited me over for the previous two Mother’s Days, is disheartening. I even told him how much I appreciated the invitations, “so that I will have something fun to do for part of the day.” I certainly didn’t expect him to invite me again, but it would have been nice to get a text message.
Especially when LO and his mother spent part of the day complaining that one of his brothers didn’t call, but only sent a gift. They both thought that was rude and inappropriate. OMG, I’d be THRILLED with a gift, a card, ANYTHING.
So he is mad at his brother, but oblivious to me. I’d happily take the Edible Arrangement that LO and Mom turn their noses up at.
Just goes to show how little I mean to him, and I need to remind myself daily.
Brother I just finished my first shift of my new job and I need some booze or morphine I’m so sore. Those kids were running circles around me. But it’s work and for now it will pay the bills for the most part. While I’m sore I’m glad to be working again even if it’s nights. We’ll see how it goes. I’ll still be using indeed to keep an eye out for something else. But for now it’s not a bad job.
To Adam:
I somehow missed that you got a new job. Can you provide any details?
🎩 🥃,
Congratulations!
Working with kids can be fun if you like children in general.
To Miss Snow:
I don’t know if he means actual children, or just adults who are younger than himself? I am guessing it was the latter, but we will have to wait for clarification from Adam.
Yeah outside of the shift manager all the other workers were young people. An assortment of men and women. One of the young ladies took a particular fondness for the “Miss” in front of her name. I told her that’s how I was raised to address women.
The young man I worked with the most said from the start of working with him he was autistic, though I would have never been able to tell. All he was, was talkative.
The shift manager is a bit older than me with 29 and 35 year old children. He would check on me from time to time as it’s a really faced paced job. And from what other employees said, lots of new hires quit after their first day. I told him, not to worry, I have dependents. I don’t have that choice. I go back again Wednesday for my next shift. If it doesn’t physically kill me, I think I’m going to like it. But I can’t stick at this wage too long, so I hope there is room for advancement. I’m just glad to get out of the industry I was in for the last 25 years prior.
To Adam:
So far, so good? I realize you can’t be too specific, but I hope this work agrees with you.
Adam,
That’s great news you have got a new job. Hope you can make it work for as long as you need, or progress to a better wage.
“One of the young ladies took a particular fondness for the “Miss” in front of her name.”
Beware shiny objects!
May be this young Miss could help reduce Adam’s residual LE fever for his last LO, serving as a sort of TO for a little while. 😁
Then, If this TO gets into a risky zone, Adam just quits the job, complaining it’s too fast paced with the low 💰 .
To Miss Snow:
Somehow I am thinking that Adam is too sore and tired to be thinking about potential limerence issues.
I have never worked nights, and would think it would be a bit difficult to adjust. I hope it all goes swimmingly for our dear Adam.
No worries, Norma!
As soon as meeting ladies, especially young, Adam’s knees go soft and back straight… and gentlemen like 🎩 words just naturally flow out of his liquor—lubricates lips…
🥃 has its encouraging vigor!
To Miss Snow:
Point taken! I am hoping for the best for Adam in all areas.
It has to be a relief to be back at work after a period of unemployment. I hope the money is enough to take some pressure off.
Not sure about his knees or his back, though. (?)
Brother,
Excellent my Friend. Congratulations! Welcome to night shift. Now you’ll be on late nights at Lwl like me. Glad you finally have an income again. It will help you feel normal and give you some sort of life besides always being at home. (Like I didn’t mind the Covid layoffs, but after about 3 weeks of it, I was so ready to go back)
I work around a lot of younger people myself. Some are older too. You just find your niche and learn to blend in. You’ll be fine. I have jobs I do too that are way more strenuous than other jobs, but I just tell myself it’s a good workout. And it is. It’s helped keep extra weight off and keeps me feeling young.
Although Ms. Marcia will probably give me crap for writing that because simply feeling younger doesn’t mean I should be basking in the company of or cavorting with Ladies under 35 at work.
(I don’t know what I’m gonna do with her Brother.. 😆)
Anyway, I wish you much success. Let me know how its going. You got this man.. 🤜🏻🤛🏻
MJ,
“Although Ms. Marcia will probably give me crap for writing that because simply feeling younger doesn’t mean I should be basking in the company of or cavorting with Ladies under 35 at work.”
Oh, my precious, you are in such denial. Tell me when the shuttle lands. 🙂
You should be at the 50 and over table.
“You should be at the 50 and over table.”
Marcia
I would but all those people wanna talk about is their kids’ successes, pending retirement and if the Prolia is working out ok for them with little side effects. I got better things to do.. 😆
#NotInDenial
Well, I guess I need to be at the 70 and over table.
I have no children’s successes to report, although I will admit to discussing Prolia once or twice.
No side effects, and my bone scans are good.
No offense ND. Sometimes I think Marcia likes to believe I got one foot in the grave. All I’m trying to do is stay active. Just because I get AARP mail doesn’t make me old. 😁
MJ,
“I got better things to do.. 😆”way.”
Like what? Honey, we’re old. Take your fingernails out of the wall and fall back to the ground like the rest of us have. You’ll join us there soon enough, anyway. 🙂
Well I hate to bust your bubble Dear but I refuse. Refuse to be the Crypt Keeper. We need to be a little more positive for Brother Adam now. He needs to set a good example for those youngsters he’s working around. Like I do. Show them that getting older isn’t so bad. Some of the younger crowd I work with are lazy. They don’t want to work and they miss a lot of work. On top of that, they’re like 20 years younger than me. He needs to be a positive influence. Can we help a Brother out?
“Like what? Honey, we’re old. Take your fingernails out of the wall and fall back to the ground like the rest of us have. You’ll join us there soon enough, anyway. 🙂”
If I’ve told you once, I’ve told you a thousand times.
If fat, 70+ something Bill Belichek can date a sophisticated, attractive, young 20-something hottie for well over a year, then not so old (55 year old) MJ ought to be able to take a 30-something year old Woman out for a cup of coffee now and then. Without catching $#!+ from all my middle aged sisters. Can you help me out please? 🙏🏻 (I almost called you Mama 😆)
#SabrinaCarpenter
MJ,
“Just because I get AARP mail doesn’t make me old. 😁”
It does if you’re 25 or 30.
MJ,
“We need to be a little more positive for Brother Adam now. He needs to set a good example for those youngsters he’s working around. ”
I wasn’t talking about his ability to do a good job.
I was razzing you for your inability to accept you are middle-aged. And are we still considered middle-aged? Are we going to live to 110? 🙂
“Show them that getting older isn’t so bad.”
It is bad.
“If fat, 70+ something Bill Belichek can date a sophisticated, attractive, young 20-something hottie for well over a year, then not so old (55 year old) MJ ought to be able to take a 30-something year old Woman out for a cup of coffee now and then. ”
This seems painfully self-evident: Bill Belichek has a lot of money. Celebritynetworth.com is putting him at $70 million. We need to look no further than the leader of the free world to witness the same kind of arrangement.
“I was razzing you for your inability to accept you are middle-aged. And are we still considered middle-aged? Are we going to live to 110? 🙂”
Marcia
If God has a way, I’ll live to be 150. Because my punishment for being such a terrible husband, father and overall perv, will be to watch all those after me die, when their time comes. Nobody wants to see that but I figure as stubborn as I am, its possible. So no, I’m not middle aged yet. 😆
“It is bad.”
Sometimes I feel like you write that way because you already see the end. I happen to like it when people surprise me. Because my opinion of myself is pretty much down in the dumps too. At least in looking back to where I went wrong. And now I’m getting to a point in life where I’m worried I’m getting too old for anyone to notice me for any good I try to be about. So thats kinda where I go delusional on getting older. I don’t want to but I can’t stop it. So I just need to deal with it. If I bring anything to the table, when dealing with a younger Woman, any Woman, I hope its wisdom. I hope they see it, learn from it and are even turned on by it. That’s about all I have in the arsenal. Because I’m definitely no Colin Firth. 😆
“We need to look no further than the leader of the free world to witness the same kind of arrangement.”
Whats wrong with that? I like Melania. I like that she’s usually the quiet one in the background. Always looking so serious. She makes a good other half to that arrangement.
My favorite Trump-er is Tiffany Trump. (Like of course she is MJ, she’s under 35) She’s 32, has blonde hair like LO, has a sweet smile and is educated in the arts. And did you know she’s into younger Dudes?
She’s married to a guy in his 20s.
If she can do it, so can you.. 😆
See all this vast wealth of knowledge I am about? Where else you gonna get such good company like me to spend your online time with? It’s too bad you’re not my co-worker. I might just ask you out for coffee.. ☕️😆
MJ,
“Nobody wants to see that but I figure as stubborn as I am, its possible. So no, I’m not middle aged yet. 😆”
Actually, now that you mention it, you probably will live really long. Because I can see you just HANGING ON. You WILL NOT LEAVE! 🙂 You’re that guy at the end of a party … when the hosts have turned off the music and are standing at their front door and the few remaining stragglers are getting their coats on … but you’re sitting in front of the chips bowl, polishing them off, bizarrely oblivious to the obvious cues that it’s time to go. 🙂
“Sometimes I feel like you write that way because you already see the end. ”
It’s not so much seeing the end as realizing how much things are different now that I’m this age.
“If I bring anything to the table, when dealing with a younger Woman, any Woman, I hope its wisdom. I hope they see it, learn from it and are even turned on by it.”
Wisdom didn’t do a damn thing for me when I was a young woman. 🙂 If I wanted wisdom, I’d read a book.
“That’s about all I have in the arsenal. Because I’m definitely no Colin Firth. 😆”
I would need to see him close up, without makeup and special lighting. Dude’s not exactly young. 🙂
“Whats wrong with that? I like Melania. ”
I can’t figure out if you’re are this obtuse or are just pretending to be. 🙂 I was very clear. Melania is bought and paid for. And so, more than likely, is Belicheck’s girlfriend. There’s very little chance a young woman in her 20s finds a man in his 70s sexually appealing. It’s just too much of an age difference.
In terms of Melania, there have been multiple clips of Trump trying to take her hand and she drops his hand and practically recoils. She has zero interest in him as a man. She’s there for the money. If you have to lead with money, the woman is not into you.
“My favorite Trump-er is Tiffany Trump. ”
Now, I think she’s average. The other daughter is quite attractive.
“And did you know she’s into younger Dudes?”
OMG? Are you drinking? 🙂 He’s FOUR years younger. That’s hardly “younger.”
“See all this vast wealth of knowledge I am about?”
I don’t. No. 🙂
“It’s too bad you’re not my co-worker. I might just ask you out for coffee.. ☕️😆”
We’ve had this conversation. I would say no. I don’t want to date a man my age who’s chasing much-younger women.
That being said, I’d get you on a coffee date with someone. I could be an excellent wingwoman.
“You’re that guy at the end of a party … when the hosts have turned off the music and are standing at their front door and the few remaining stragglers are getting their coats on …”
Marcia
That only happened to me one time and it was like 30+ years ago. I met a dancer at one of the clubs I was at and she told me to wait around for her later. Problem was she left before me, so I ended up waiting for nothing. Like when almost everyone else was gone. Which was too bad because she was a lot of fun and very good at what she did. No I’m not going to tell you what kind of club this was.. 😈
“It’s not so much seeing the end as realizing how much things are different now that I’m this age.”
Definitely on par with this one. If it was even half as easy now as it was for me in my 20s, I’d probably have already re-married by now or at least have a few more proper past relationships under my belt. I wish the Women I met weren’t so flip-floppy all the time. Is my energy really that bad? I’m not trying to attract avoidants.
“Wisdom didn’t do a damn thing for me when I was a young woman. 🙂 If I wanted wisdom, I’d read a book.”
Why is it then that nearly every dating influencer I watch discusses younger Women appreciating a older man’s intellect, and wisdom. That this is attractive. Someone who has their act together and shares that knowledge? Not necessarily all Dad vibes but just sharing whats worked well for them, to get them where they are. Maybe you were just different.
“I can’t figure out if you’re are this obtuse or are just pretending to be. 🙂”
Oh I’m obtuse alright. If you knew some of my Lady Friends, they would probably agree. I get what you’re saying though. Perhaps she is just with him for the money. Guess I need to win the lotto and then I too can join that club.. 🤨
“The other daughter is quite attractive.”
Definitely agree. A smart business Woman too. Thats sexy. I liked it when she joined him on the Apprentice. I miss that show..
“We’ve had this conversation. I would say no. I don’t want to date a man my age who’s chasing much-younger women.
That being said, I’d get you on a coffee date with someone. I could be an excellent wingwoman.”
I know you would be. I just hope the girl you get me with doesn’t ask me why I had to bring my mom on the date. That would be embarrassing and you’d probably leave me for dead all by myself. 😆 (C’mon, you totally walked into that one 😇)
Btw why you still gotta always make me sound so pervy? They’re not always “much” younger. I’m not necessarily about going for the under 25s. (Although if one came along.. 🤔)
Miss Norma
Yes things are going well though tonight will only be my second day on the job. I had to get a few things done during the day, and then eat some dinner before I take a nap before my shift starts. So I decided to respond to everyone. It’s a nice work environment which is more than I can say for my last job. I’m trading some financial gain for a more psychologically peaceful work environment. I may not be looking forward to work but at the same time I am not dreading it.
This isn’t the first time I have worked nights but it has been a long time since the last time I did; 2011-2012. I’ll adjust to it alright. It’ll be if this job doesn’t pan out as far as finances, it will be getting use to going back to days depending on how long I stick with this job.
It’s my back more than anything. My feet and legs recover faster.
LaR
Sound advice. Not gonna lie my limerent ears perked up on meeting her the first time. But I have learned from LO. I am reminding myself if I am paired to work with her, to just be friendly and professional. She seems quite capable, and like me tends to like to work alone as much as possible.
And I have a work uniform so no temptation to dress to impress her lol. Though they do let me wear my hats while I work, so ……
Miss Snow
If she is anything she is a reminder not to make the same mistake. For her sake, if I find it easier to do for, than for myself. I don’t want to drag another soul into the web of limerence.
“Adam’s knees go soft and back straight… and gentlemen like 🎩 words just naturally flow out of his liquor—lubricates lips…”
Well I won’t ever apologize for my gentlemanly ways, but if those words are coming off of my “liqour lubricated lips” I don’t think my boss would appreciate that lol. Save that for wooing Momma at home.
MJ, my Brother
Yeah I remember at first COVID quarantine at home was like a free vacation, but eventually it turned into cabin fever. I am glad to finally get out even if it’s mostly for work right now.
I joke, but I usually tend to like to work with people younger than me. The weight of the world hasn’t crushed their spirits yet. It’s quite refreshing for a pessimistic, apathetic, tired old curmudgeon like me.
The hard labor is just something for me do get use to again, with my last job being 50-60% desk time and the rest labor. There’s none of that on this job. I think my body will eventually get used to it and adapt. Because I too could benefit from a bit of healthy exercise. Maybe the RIGHT woman will notice. 😉
Thanks Brother. I will keep all posted. I continue to come here for the comradery but keeping my head out of the limerent posts for the most part. That seems to be working for me.
You’re welcome my Friend. I’m very happy for you. No need to worry about too much limerent type posting from me.
Ms. Marcia got me tied down with ropes, preventing me from getting my head too far up in the clouds. Guess its a good thing I can keep the old broad around for something.. 😆
Talk to you soon friend..
🎩 Adam,
“For her sake, if I find it easier to do for, than for myself. I don’t want to drag another soul into the web of limerence.”
How could you drag another soul into the web of limerence if you’re not her LO? Do you see upotentially you could be this young lady’s LO, or she’d be your TO/LO? Do you feel she’s the limerent type?
For limerents, it’s a challenge for OURSELF to avoid slipping into a new painful LE, especially when you’re UNavailable. As long as you don’t subconsciously “play” a LO’s push-n-pull game with her, what’s going to happen to her is her business and responsibility, not yours; totally “out of your control”.
“I continue to come here for the camaraderie but keeping my head out of the limerent posts for the most part. That seems to be working for me.”
I’m very glad to hear that it’s working for you! 👏 Keep it up! 👍
To Adam:
Thinking of you and wishing you good luck and a strong back.
Yeah Miss Snow I hardly doubt I’m a gal’s LO. She’d have to idealize me a whole hell of a lot to be limerent for me.
I did work with her my Sunday-Monday shift early Monday morning. Most wanted to leave early for the holiday (we usually get off at 7am and left finally at 6am). I happen to be there when management complimented her on her work and she said “That’s thanks to Adam’s help. He just came over here and started helping me.”
She engages way more voluntarily with other people than me. Maybe it’s because I don’t talk much. I work, clock out and go home. She did sit outside with me on our lunch break (at 2am Monday) where I usually spend my break listening to music since the weather is nice that time of night. We talked a little. This is my first week and that’s the first time she’s sat outside while I was. I don’t eat that time of night. I usually wait till I get home.
After lunch while I was helping her with her task, the store intercom was playing “We Are Young” by F.U.N. and I said “Im far from that” as I sang the song. One of the guys said (that came over to help us since ours was the last task to finish) “Yeah we can tell Adam by how long to it takes to get up from off your knees (he meant no innuendo by that)” because of my back pain. I said “Young man don’t talk back to your father like that!” 😂
MJ my brother
It’s 1:25 am, I’m drinking vodka and have a technician coming to check out our car (something’s wrong with the gear shift and I’ve been walking to work this week) between 9:30-11:30 am today and still need to mow the lawn. These nights with days off in between leave my body confused as hell lol. I like my work and my co-workers. But the night part is something to get used to. I’m gonna make some tacos and try to eat and get a nap in by 1-2pm before I go back to work at 9pm today. Ugh.
🎩 🥃 ,
“Yeah Miss Snow I hardly doubt I’m a gal’s LO. She’d have to idealize me a whole hell of a lot to be limerent for me.”
It’s only one week, it’s hard to tell what could happen from either direction. Also bear in mind: our ways of slipping into LE (with an instant or delayed glimmer, adoration, admiration, etc) can be very different from others, especially the opposite sex. Just keep in mind, Glimmer/“idealization”/adoration is a possibility for the future.
Based on the limited information, I assume she’s single, young, right? How old do you think she is around?
“I happen to be there when management complimented her on her work and she said “That’s thanks to Adam’s help. He just came over here and started helping me.”
Oh, oh! 😇 From her compliments, it sounds like your “helping” was already a bit beyond normal professional expectation/boundary?
She’s definite appreciated your more than courtesy “help”! From all your previous talks here and your conventional notions of a “real” man, you just couldn’t help want to and go ahead to help young women, whether they needed/asked for it or not. It’s probably that Western tradition “saving damsel in distress” in display, even before they show any signs of distress. Is her work load /responsibility very heavy?
“She did sit outside with me on our lunch break (at 2am Monday) where I usually spend my break listening to music since the weather is nice that time of night. We talked a little. This is my first week and that’s the first time she’s sat outside while I was.”
I’m not sure if she chose that time to sit outside when you were having lunch or it’s a coincident. It sounds like she definitely likes you! We women can be very subtle and indirect to show our affection, especially if it’s big, conscious or unconscious. Does she know you’re married with grown kids?
“One of the guys said (that came over to help us since ours was the last task to finish) “Yeah we can tell Adam by how long to it takes to get up from off your knees (he meant no innuendo by that)” because of my back pain. I said “Young man don’t talk back to your father like that!” 😂”
I think the man has double-layered meanings here: Adam’s knees can’t get up fast enough when he sits with a young women, NOT due to back pain but the damsel. I think that guy sensed your affection/attraction from the way you were interacting with her: your unconscious posture, body language, facial expressions, etc, regardless of whatsoever you were chatting about.
It’s nice to have a woman like this (perhaps TO?) to pull you further away from your old LO; however, please keep a sharp awareness that it could develop into something you don’t want — another LE, or something she wants (love) but can’t have (you’re married).
Some people’s glimmer do not take place at the first sight, but later triggered by some kind deeds (like LaR’s case). Your continuous “help” could possibly induce her Glimmer for you, but you’re UNAVAILABLE, period! So please don’t make her to fall into that rabbit hole!
If I were you, the kind thing to do is to chat with her about Mamma and your family life, which would discourage, if not kill, fantasy from a single woman.
I’m a Stoic student, I tend to think worst scenarios first in all matters, especially social ones, while actively avoid/prevent them from happening. So forgive me if I’m making a mountain out of a molehill here.
I hope you reduce/stop your drinking, especially with the challenging night shifts. Your body needs quality rest or it could deteriorate fast, no matter how healthy you’re now.
Adam,
Miss Snow is wise in this comment:
“Some people’s glimmer do not take place at the first sight, but later triggered by some kind deeds (like LaR’s case).”
Looking back, it was a definite case of “mission creep”. LO and I looked out for each other through some challenging times at work and in our personal lives. The point here being – that role in my life (both the give and take sides) was already filled by my SO. So I shouldn’t have got into doing that with someone else. I think, from all you’ve said, that the same happened with your last LO.
For ages I just wrote it off: “just two friends being nice tp each other”, I said to myself. Then the glimmer hit me like a train one day (I hadn’t seen it coming apart from in the 24 hours before). And here I am, 3 years on, still trying to see off the tail end of it. I know your LE was even longer than that. Just go careful, Sir Adam!
There is a movie about this topic, „Her“, from 2013. with Joaquin Phoenix.
I was shocked how realistic it seems. And especially it ashamed me, because I had fallen in love with a guy that I have never met. Dr. L, this kind of parasocial LO is missing in your list. My LO is not famous and not AI. A normal guy (a liar and an narcissistic asshole) (sorry for that), who wanted to chat with me, keeping contact but did not want to meet me. And I was hooked, couldn‘t block him.
To Laloba:
I remember that movie, “Her.” I actually was intrigued by the character, voiced by Scarlett Johanssen.
It seems like it would be way too easy to fall into a relationship with an AI person.
I think I would be susceptible, and am scared to death of this type of thing.
I have enough trouble with my own LO, who isn’t even a very nice person. I had a difficult Mother’s Day, as I stated above, and LO said, “I should have reached out, but I didn’t think of it.” I am filled with disgust at him for being inconsiderate, and disgust at myself for still being limerent for him.
Imagine an AI LO who is friendly and supportive.
“I should have reached out, but I didn’t think of it.”
This is very hurtful. At least he could have left the second part..
Disrespectful.
I can’t understand how people can be so rude.
To Laloba:
Thank you for acknowledging how hurtful this is. I mentioned it to two girlfriends who didn’t seem to think it was a big deal.
The good news is that it’s another nail in the coffin. I certainly can’t kid myself about what kind of person he is. If he were kindly, I’d probably never be able to overcome my limerence.
I think it would have been nice for him to reach out. Most definitely. But I’m also a realist when it comes to adult friendship, and I don’t think most people feel a sense of emotional responsibility for their friends. Or at least not consistently feel one. I try to keep my expectations low and be pleasantly surprised if friends remember important days to reach out. Or to check in. Otherwise, I’m disappointed.
To Marcia:
That is such a good idea, to keep expectations low.
I expected nothing from my children, so I wasn’t too disappointed.
I expected nothing from my girlfriends, and two of them sent me text messages, which was a nice surprise.
I expected nothing from LO, but I was disappointed. So maybe I am fooling myself there.
ND:
“That is such a good idea, to keep expectations low.”
My expectations for friends are pretty low: They make some effort to keep in touch and they show up for plans that we make. That’s about it.
“I expected nothing from my girlfriends, and two of them sent me text messages, which was a nice surprise.”
Ok. That was nice.
“I expected nothing from LO, but I was disappointed.”
Well, I think you probably did because he’d invited you over the last two Mother’s Days. So it makes logical sense to expect something from him… but … I think what he told you was probably true — “I should have reached out, but I didn’t think of it.” Why he thought of it two years in a row and not this year, I don’t know.
I had a friend invite me over for XMAS a couple of years ago. Last Christmas, I didn’t even get a text. That’s why you just have to keep expectations low with friends, especially when it comes to holidays and birthdays.
To Marcia:
You are right on all counts.
It’s just that I have discussed my issues with my children with LO so many times, he is very well aware of the situation and that it is a terrible day for me. Just a text message would have lifted my spirits. Why it doesn’t occur to him is a mystery, but it is what it is.
ND:
“It’s just that I have discussed my issues with my children with LO so many times, he is very well aware of the situation and that it is a terrible day for me.”
I understand, and I don’t think you’re wrong for feeling that.
I’m just relaying my experience from my little corner of the world. And that’s that friends are inconsistent. There for you through one thing and MIA the next. I don’t think it’s to be intentionally mean. They get busy with other things in their life and other relationships that take priority.
To Marcia:
I don’t think he’s intentionally mean. He has the type of mind where, when he gets focused on something, everything else just disappears.
He is chronically inconsiderate, and I have just had to learn to deal with it. He certainly isn’t going to change.
I’m going to go sit by myself at the over 70 table.
ND:
“I’m going to go sit by myself at the over 70 table.”
There is no such table. You’d be at the at the 50 and over table. With me and MJ.
Yes ND, please come join us. Marcia has me tied down with rope and won’t let me go and chat with the ladies at the 35 and under table. I need a drink. Like about 10 drinks because she won’t stop talking about Mikhail Baryshnikov. I’m sick of it.
Just bring the drinks on your way over. I’ll cash-app you the money back.
🍷🥂🍹😆
MJ,
“Marcia has me tied down with rope and won’t let me go and chat with the ladies at the 35 and under table. ”
It’s not me. It’s the restraining orders. 🙂
“Just bring the drinks on your way over. I’ll cash-app you the money back.”
My dude, you’ll be buying us the drinks. Hot broads like us don’t brings their wallets when they leave home. They don’t have to. 🙂
To Marcia and MJ:
Thank you for inviting me to sit at the over-50 table.
I am delighted to be included. I thought I had to sit by myself.
I don’t drink, but I am still fun.
“It’s not me. It’s the restraining orders. 🙂”
Marcia
Sounds about right. But some of them like my Dad vibes. They told me so.. 😇
“My dude, you’ll be buying us the drinks. Hot broads like us don’t brings their wallets when they leave home. They don’t have to. 🙂”
Well I can’t get to the bar if you got me tied down to this chair. Besides, you better have your wallet just in case I do slip over to their table and go against the restraining order. You’re gonna need that debit card to bail me out of jail.. 😆
MJ,
I’m watching a video on youtube from a channel called Cinema Therapy. The video is “Relationship Therapist vs. Hitch: Did Hitch have good dating advice?”
It’s about the movie “Hitch” with Will Smith in which he plays a dating coach.
In the video, you have two men commenting on the movie. Two guys in their mid-40s who were roommates in college. One is a filmmaker and one is a therapist. They both agreed the movie’s premise was false. Not every guy has a shot with any woman if they do and say certain things that he learns from a dating coach. And the therapist talked about a patient who came in to see him with this long list of things he wanted in a woman. It was some level of perfection, some combination of Mary Poppins and Wonder Woman. (Whether or not such a woman actually exists is a point for another day.) And the therapist asked, “But what’s on her list?” And the patient looked at him like he’d been punched in the face. Because for some bizarre reason it had never occurred to him to think about what this kind of woman might want in a man.
So I think it’s less about what you think you can provide and more figuring out what the women you want would want in a man.
That makes sense. I mean there is so much “so called” advice online. Some of it legit, some of horse$#!+. I tend to weed out what hasn’t worked well for me so far. A lot of my problem is past limerent mindset, reading too much into what-ever little thing I’m getting from a Woman. Like why does this person keep showing up and saying hi to me every day. Is she just friendly or should I approach? (Gee MJ, what do you think? Go for it..) Breadcrumbs to devour all over but never quite getting to the salad bar at least.
I suppose I’m just worried what I have to offer won’t be good enough. Yet I won’t know until I’m actually in the game. Go figure. Maybe I will get that cup of coffee sooner than I think.. 😉
MJ,
“Like why does this person keep showing up and saying hi to me every day. Is she just friendly or should I approach?”
What do you mean? They’re actively seeking you out? At our age, most of the men I’ve worked with at my last few jobs have been married. I didn’t worry about most of them pushing for more. So I didn’t really worry if I was the one who went out looking for them to talk to.
Now, with the few who were single … if i could sense they were putting out the feelers and if I wasn’t interested… I put up the shields.
“I suppose I’m just worried what I have to offer won’t be good enough.”
The concept of the video I mentioned was that like attracts like. You have to bring to the table the qualities you want in someone else.
Marcia to MJ:
I reread my comment. I wasn’t clear.
I remember this one guy asking me if I was going to some Christmas social they were having at work. He made a point of saying he was going and what dish he was bringing. And I said I didn’t plan on going.
The event itself was irrelevant … here he was … telling me where he was going to be on a certain date, at a certain time, and asking me if I was going. And I said no. If my LO had asked … forget about bringing a dish, I’d have brought the whole damn meal. 🙂 I’d have made a point of saying I was going and my butt would have been there.
This guy brought the Christmas thing up again another time and I answered the same way … I wasn’t going.
Another time he mentioned some concert he was going to and asked if I Iiked that kind of music and I said no.
Do you see where I ‘m going with this? I was intentionally not picking up on the cues. If I was interested, I would have said I liked the band or mentioned some song of theirs I liked or I would have asked when the concert was, blah, blah, blah …
I don’t know if I’m making any sense. 🙂 But if I Iiked the guy, I was looking for the cues.
“What do you mean? They’re actively seeking you out?”
Marcia
To answer your question. (A few days later-Sorry for the delay. Very busy week)
Nobody is really actively seeking me out. There’s a Woman I’ve been seeing in the cafeteria every night, who’s been very friendly and always saying hi to me. Not jumping through hoops to get to me but noticing me enough to make me wonder. I’ve seen her around the place and even working out in the company gym. I’ve made very little small-talk because the proximity of the cafeteria to my work area is vast, so I usually have to be very quick and can’t draw out very long conversations with her. She seems to have a likable personality and is attractive in her own little way. Nothing overtly standing out here other than co-workers being co-workers to each other. However I’m considering her another possibility, only because I like her attitude. It’s jovial, kind and I’m pretty desperate. So almost anything or anyone that will make a millisecond of time for me is looking pretty good at this point.
As for the feelers, its funny you bring this up. My other Latina lady friend and I had some conversations this week about mid-life crisis. She showed up to work in a Porsche and I’d never seen her in that car before so I complimented and asked her about it. She said that was how she treated herself after her divorce, which from what little she has told me sounds like it was a bitter one. So the car is dubbed her mid-life crisis car. I told her I could talk her ear off about mid-life crisis. (But I haven’t yet and won’t) I’ve told her very little about my divorce, kids, and Dads issues, but of course nothing about LO. Guess my point here for mentioning this is I think I triggered her a little and I don’t know if it was a good thing. She was a little standoff-ish a few days later and then brought up (you guessed it 😉) a boyfriend. (Imagine that) So she basically bursted my bubble and the direction she could probably tell I was headed. I didn’t think I was leaking that badly but maybe I was. Point is like you, I think she picked up what I was trying to put down and basically shut it down before I could go there. Intentionally not picking up on the cue. So yes I do understand what you mean.
MJ,
“Nobody is really actively seeking me out. ”
I asked that because I did seek out my LO. I tried to go find him at work. Not often and more so in the early days of the LE. But I’m sure he noticed.
However, there were other guys, men I thought of as friends, I’d seek out, too. Most were married. There were two who were single. One of them did get the wrong idea that I was interested. But with both, we talked openly about other people we were interested in. When that happens, I assume it’s a friendship. Maybe that’s my own short-sightedness.
I’m not sure what my point is. 🙂 Someone seeking you out could mean something but it could not.
“There’s a Woman I’ve been seeing in the cafeteria every night”
I wouldn’t assume someone saying hello means anything. It could, but I wouldn’t assume.
So is this a pretty big company? Many different departments? Different shifts? I ask because … could you become known as the guy who is hitting on a lot of women? Could that be a turn off for some potentials? Yes. But then again, I don’t know anything about your company culture. (I’m not asking so you can bring up past chicks who I banned from the conversation. 🙂 I know you’re dying to tell me which women know each other. It was a general question about … could the word get around?)
I think you really need to find a place to meet women that’s not … work. I think work can be a place to meet people, potentially, depending on obvious pitfalls and the company culture. But it can’t be the only place. And I know you’re going to tell me how busy you are, but you have to make some time for your own life.
“As for the feelers, its funny you bring this up. My other Latina lady friend and I had some conversations this week about mid-life crisis. … She was a little standoff-ish a few days later and then brought up (you guessed it 😉) a boyfriend. (Imagine that) ”
As a general rule, your side is not subtle. Of course, this all depends on context. Men are more subtle than they were before MeToo. And of course, you’re at work, so that adds another layer of .. .idk … things being tamped-down. But if you talk to someone enough times, yes, your side leaks. Particularly if the guy is single. You can feel it. It’s an energy. He’s looking for an opening. No pun intended. 🙂
I do have a question for you. So that guy I wrote about in my previous post … I heard through a mutual acquaintance (and this was after his 3 approaches) that he was going to ask me out. And I’m curious, from a guy’s perspective … why would he? I didn’t pick up on his 3 feel-outs, I never went looking for him and when I ran into him, I never extended the conversation. I wasn’t stand-offish; I was friendly enough but not overly so. And no flirting. I didn’t have any reason to be standoffish. He was pleasant with me, but the fact that he had thus far hesitated and was talking — trying to get intel? — with a mutual acquaintance led me to believe he was … on the fence? Wouldn’t you go with that feeling?
“So is this a pretty big company? Many different departments? Different shifts? I ask because … could you become known as the guy who is hitting on a lot of women?”
Marcia
I know for a fact the main floor covers at least a million square feet. Probably more if you include the buildings connected by tunnel but overall yes the place is huge. It’s an auto-plant. So huge I always joke as to believe LO is working in the next zip code. Her office is at least a country-mile from where I work now, so I very rarely see her. There are many departments and 2 other shifts besides my night shift, (days/weekends) so all in all, about 5000 people total work at this location, 7 days a week about 10 to 22 hours each day. I think the chances of me becoming “that” guy thats always hitting on the hotties is slim to none. This Woman works in a way more far off place from where I do, but we seem to hit the lunch room at the same time nightly. At this point, I’m trying to see how receptive she is to my chit chat. She seemed a little surprised I stopped her the other night, but hardly alarmed. I wouldn’t mind getting to know her, however she’s a mom to someone, I do know that. So already I’m on the fence. But we’ll see.
I don’t see any rings on her finger but that doesn’t have to mean anything these days. Whenever I see her, I make effort to ask her how her night is going. Just keeping things basic for now. I don’t have much time for deep thoughts.
“I think you really need to find a place to meet women that’s not … work.”
You’re not wrong. But its true. I have no life. My only other social activity would be going to the grocery store and possibly mass. I mean this really is the extent of what I do outside of work. (Besides being good at that yard work I told you about.. 🙂)
However, the whole church thing cringes me out. Not that I don’t think I need a good Catholic girl to keep me in line. (I do-believe that) It’s just not a place I feel right about meeting people now. I don’t think its not possible, but it’s not why I attend. I feel often feel like I need to work on me when I’m there. So I can be better. I wouldn’t be against meeting someone though. I mean the church is how my family came to be at one time. But I think its the passage of time now and even freaky church girl who rubbed me the wrong way around covid time. The whole idea of meeting someone there just doesn’t feel plausible to me as much. At least not today.
“But if you talk to someone enough times, yes, your side leaks. Particularly if the guy is single. You can feel it. It’s an energy. He’s looking for an opening. No pun intended. 🙂”
I assumed she was available because she never mentioned any guy she was actively doing anything with. Is it a requirement? I guess it doesn’t have to be, but for her it’s an easy way to gently keep me in my lane. For new years, I asked if she was going to go downtown to watch the ball drop and she said she thought about it but opted to just stay in alone for the night.. Alone?? 🤯 Wtf.. 🤔
(Like why is someone as awesome and as pretty as you alone on New Year’s Eve? This is not right.)
When spring arrived, we talked about our yards and she mentioned she had a lot of weed pulling and leaves to pick up. That she did that all by herself from the way she described. So to me, that was another hint there was no SO in her life currently. Because shouldn’t a good man be doing that for her? Or helping her out? I mean shouldn’t he? Like raking her leaves, pulling her weeds, mowing her lawn, washing her cars, fixing her things inside her house, getting her nice hot cups of coffee when its cold out. Being “The Man” in “Her” life. Doing Man things. I did all that and then-some when I was still married. Because as the man, it’s what I thought I was supposed to be doing. I mean I’ll sign up to do all that for her and make whatever means necessary to work around Dads hot mess to make it all happen now. But she’s gotta be interested and she’s gotta want to put up with my bs drama in order to make it work.. For real. At least a little for f—s sake. 😑
I’m curious, from a guy’s perspective … why would he? I didn’t pick up on his 3 feel-outs, I never went looking for him and when I ran into him, I never extended the conversation. I wasn’t stand-offish; I was friendly enough but not overly so.”
I can’t speak for this guy’s personal situation, but if he’s anything like me, your general interaction with me might get you on my radar. Kinda by default. The simplest of all conversation could just happen. You don’t have to do any other thing than just be ordinary you and that could be enough for me to believe you have potential. Like I mentioned to you up there in the previous post. Any Woman that makes a millisecond of time for me at this point could easily go on my radar. Thats how cafeteria chick got on my radar now, because she caught my eye and then I caught her eye. Then all she said was hello. And in my mind, I already want her moving her stuff in to my place next week..
I’ve noticed I even sometimes go outside my general “type” looking at Women I wouldn’t normally go for. Yet I feel like if they could find something good in me, maybe talk a little to me, I might be interested back in them. Just how it is. I think it’s the personal situations in our lives that get us to this point and this guy (like me) kinda sees something in you that fancied him. It could be your looks, your nails, your shoe size, your hairstyle, anything. Something that said to him you might be his type. So perhaps thats why he was going to ask. Your conversations initiate triggers for him that he might like. Sometimes it doesn’t take much. All LO had to do was smile at me one time and it set-off the biggest emotional firestorm I’ve ever felt in my whole life. LF almost did the same thing with her incessant staring, so it was a no-brainer I would have to approach her.
“And no flirting. I didn’t have any reason to be standoffish. He was pleasant with me, but the fact that he had thus far hesitated and was talking — trying to get intel? — with a mutual acquaintance led me to believe he was … on the fence? Wouldn’t you go with that feeling?”
Again I can’t think of every possible reason he would hold out, but it could be for anything. I mean his reasons for being on the fence could be endless. I can’t even begin to imagine how many reasons I felt like I triggered Fine-Latina gal the other night and I might not have done that at all. I might have just been reading the room wrong the whole time and never considered her actually having a SO. Maybe her Dude just started dating, I don’t know. I think as guys we’re just being cautious..
Then again you’re the type that wants to get it all out there front and center, right away. Like tell you we’re interested so we avoid all this what-if crap.
I mean it kinda is the right way to go about it. That way both parties can move on if its not meant to be.
MJ,
“There are many departments and 2 other shifts besides my night shift, (days/weekends) so all in all, about 5000 people total work at this location, 7 days a week about 10 to 22 hours each day. I think the chances of me becoming “that” guy that’s always hitting on the hotties is slim to none.”
Ok. Just asking. Because that could turn off some women. It would turn me off.
” I wouldn’t mind getting to know her, however she’s a mom to someone, I do know that. So already I’m on the fence. ”
So, tbh, that’s a weird thing to say. You’re a parent. So you’re discriminating against women for something you yourself are. That’s like someone who is overweight discriminating against someone who is overweight. I realize your kids are older, but a lot of your time is taken up with your dad. Just as a woman’s may be with her kids.
“Just keeping things basic for now. I don’t have much time for deep thoughts.”
So … you’re doing the same thing you’ve done before. Stalling.
I can’t tell you what to do with this specific woman (I’m not there; I can’t tell you if she’s interested) but you do stall, in general.
No, I don’t want a man to approach me and say, “I’m interested.” (Per your comment below.) That would be weird. But ask me out or ask for my number. I can’t tell you how hot it is when a man knows what he wants and he goes after it. And it’s such a relief as a woman … you don’t have to walk by him and do surprise “visits”, throw out all kinds of hints, practically wave a red banner, sit on his lap! Which it feels like sometimes. 🙂
“The whole idea of meeting someone there just doesn’t feel plausible to me as much. At least not today.”
I suggest looking for meetups in your area. Some kind of group that … idk … goes to dinner or drinks or some kind of activity. Just go for an hour. If you like it and keep going (provided the group meets often enough), you’ll develop a rapport with people.
“I assumed she was available because she never mentioned any guy she was actively doing anything with. Is it a requirement?”
So I talked to my last big LO for YEARS … and he NEVER mentioned his wife. Think about that for a minute. YEARS. I’m sure that was intentional. He liked putting out the vibe of sexy availability. He liked the attention. I don’t know if this woman is the same.
“When spring arrived, we talked about our yards and she mentioned she had a lot of weed pulling and leaves to pick up.”
You did the same thing with this one. You talked to her over NYE. Then spring arrived. OMG … too much time has passed. I’m trying to remember the exact timeframe with my college LO. He knew what he was doing in terms of game. He was a friend’s roommate. So I met him in passing one day and I called the house for my friend a couple of days later. Back in the day, before cell phones. He answered the phone and laid out the invitation right then. We hadn’t talked that long when I met him and I later asked how he knew I was interested. He said he could tell I was watching him.
” And in my mind, I already want her moving her stuff in to my place next week..”
I’m sorry. That made me laugh. I’ve definitely thought that way, though it’s usually with someone who I really like.
“Something that said to him you might be his type. ”
But he wasn’t my type. Did he never think of that?
I think it was more that his light was on. Like the episode of “Sex and the City.” Men are cabs, driving around, but then when they decide they’re ready, they turn their light on, and the next lady they pick up … well, they marry her. 🙂 That’s the joke. There is some truth to that. It’s a timing thing. I think he’d recently gotten divorced. If I remember correctly, he got remarried not too long after our interactions.
I think it was that I was one of the few single women at work. I guess my point is … I didn’t feel a connection with him. I mean, as people. As potential friends. He was perfectly pleasant but from our brief interaction, we had nothing in common and were very different and there was hardly some kind of wild chemistry to distract from the lack of things in common.
“I mean his reasons for being on the fence could be endless. ”
I guess my question was … it seemed like he maybe sensed my hesitation.
Marcia,
“So, tbh, that’s a weird thing to say. You’re a parent. So you’re discriminating against women for something you yourself are.”
I probably wouldn’t refer to it as outright discrimination. I really don’t mind kids, but it would just be better if they weren’t in the picture. I fault my last SO for this current outlook. Because she constantly pulled the be with her Daughter card when she didn’t want go out or do anything. Which turned out to be way more often than I wanted. I knew her and her Daughter were close but sometimes it got a little too ridiculously close and happened all the time. So things just kinda fell apart on their own. I look back now and honestly can’t remember why I saw in her all I did. I was bat-shit crazy over her. It was a different time then. I guess my needs changed. LO doesn’t have kids. LF doesn’t want kids. In my book that increases their value ten-fold.
“So … you’re doing the same thing you’ve done before. Stalling.”
I’m good for that. I’m paranoid about screwing up and being over-cautious. So thats why I overthink. It’s just that she’s kind of a hard one to read. Sometimes I feel like I can joke with her, sometimes not. Maybe its a no-go and never was. I just wanted it to be. Like LO, she takes very good care of herself and looks good wearing anything. It’s a really turn-on for me. Especially when they seem so clueless and don’t think they look that good. As if compliments are so unexpected. Please stop it already. You know you muy Hermosa mi Princesa Latina 😉
“He liked putting out the vibe of sexy availability. He liked the attention. I don’t know if this woman is the same.”
I wouldn’t say entirely. Sometimes I feel like she was saying things to feel me out and see if I would step things up. Like when she talked about her ex and the way he just suddenly left one day. Without explanation. Like there’s more to that story. There has to be. But I never wanted to meddle or be the annoying type prying up in her business. I figured if she wanted to tell me more, she would. It really isn’t my place to always be asking for details is it? Just trying to stay in my lane.
“I suggest looking for meetups in your area. Some kind of group that … idk … goes to dinner or drinks or some kind of activity.”
I have an app on my phone for locals in the area that post for things like that. Garage sales, moving sales, hiking trips, art and nature walks, people looking for work. All kinds of local meet-ups. I just rarely have the time. I know you’ll say I have to make time for it and you’re not wrong. I just get flustered too easy and decide some other time. Meanwhile more gray hairs keep showing up. I probably won’t figure it out till I’m 80. I’m a stubborn old dude. 😆
“I’ve definitely thought that way, though it’s usually with someone who I really like.”
That’s my problem. I like every Woman I meet. Or at least the ones I find really cute.
“But he wasn’t my type. Did he never think of that?”
He probably didn’t. I mean I’m never thinking that because I want to believe I can pick up any Woman I see and because I’m a nice guy, they should reciprocate and want me the same. At least thats what I’m saying in my head. All young Women should find me older Dad bod sexy hot! (Sure MJ. Keep telling yourself that. You and your beer gut.. Fata$$ 😂😂)
Your vibe might have not mattered. He wanted to feel you out and see what transpired.
“I guess my question was … it seemed like he maybe sensed my hesitation.”
From all you’ve mentioned, perhaps like me this guy was lonely. He might have been at a point where chemistry, having things in common with good vibes didn’t matter. He just wanted company. I don’t know. Maybe he wanted something more. I wasn’t there but if things were all dull and un-impressive, I can understand why you would wonder why he would still want to take you out. There had to be something in you he saw that he liked. Otherwise why want to ask?
Marcia,
“I probably wouldn’t refer to it as outright discrimination. I really don’t mind kids, but it would just be better if they weren’t in the picture.”
But it is. You have kids and heavy family responsibilities, yet you don’t want someone else to have either. You want her to be available to you but you might not be available to her. It’s like expecting someone to be in shape but you’re not in shape.
” I fault my last SO for this current outlook. Because she constantly pulled the be with her Daughter card when she didn’t want go out or do anything. ”
That would bother me. I have a friend whose parents will always be her #1 priority. If I were a man, I wouldn’t date her. It’s not that her parents shouldn’t be very important, but to me the romantic partner should be #1.
“I wouldn’t say entirely. Sometimes I feel like she was saying things to feel me out and see if I would step things up. ”
But she wasn’t. She had a boyfriend.
You’re trying to read the tea leaves too much. Someone who is interested won’t be this difficult to figure out. We’ve gone over this. Mixed signals are a no-go.
There’s no benefit to a woman giving mixed signals if she’s interested. She runs the risk of the man getting frustrated and walking.
“Just trying to stay in my lane.”
That’s too cautious. That’s why nothing is happening.
” I just get flustered too easy and decide some other time. Meanwhile more gray hairs keep showing up. ”
It’s not easy. Walking into a group of people you don’t know. I’ve done it. Pick a small group. 10 to 20 people.
“I probably won’t figure it out till I’m 80. I’m a stubborn old dude. 😆”
As hard as you think it is now to meet someone … it just gets worse as times passes.
“That’s my problem. I like every Woman I meet. Or at least the ones I find really cute.”
That answer horrifies me.
I think that’s what that guy was doing. I’d been working there a while. We had never even spoken. Never noticed each other. (Which I guess is good in that he wasn’t on the prowl.) But he was now divorced and looking around: Ok, who’s available? And I was and I guess reasonably appealing. But that’s not enough.
[“But he wasn’t my type. Did he never think of that?”]
“He probably didn’t. ”
He should have. It’s short-sighted and myopic not to.
I think about it, especially now that I’m older. Is there any chance this guy (whatever guy I notice) is going to be into me? It’s the reality of getting older.
“Your vibe might have not mattered. He wanted to feel you out and see what transpired.”
But my vibe should have mattered. That’s what he should have been looking for. I can’t say that all women will put out a vibe, but I think I do if I’m interested. Even if I’m not fully aware of it.
“There had to be something in you he saw that he liked. Otherwise why want to ask?”
Yes, exactly.
I did go out with two guys from that job. Single guys, to be clear. This was over the course of a few years. I worked there a while. I used to be on this other blog and a female poster labeled the dates I had correctly. She called them “beige dates.” Nothing really wrong but nothing really right. Not enough “there.”
The above message was for MJ. 🙂
I meant that guy wasn’t on the prowl when he was still married.
Marcia
I know this was from last week but I got busy.. As always.. Sorry.. 🫤
“But it is. You have kids and heavy family responsibilities, yet you don’t want someone else to have either. You want her to be available to you but you might not be available to her.”
It is selfish on my part. I get that. I think its because I’ve felt out of the loop for so long, that I have this fantasy of some Woman just swooping in and being there for me now whenever I want. I mean I know its totally un-realistic but you know what its like when you want that one other person. Who is just so totally in love with you and totally in to you, that they’ll do anything at anytime, just to keep you happy and be with you. Maybe I can blame my ex for that because that’s how she was at one time. Even though it was high-school. (Which yes I know was like 40+ years ago. Do NOT remind me I’m old and qualify for AARP status 🧓🏻)
“That would bother me. I have a friend whose parents will always be her #1 priority. If I were a man, I wouldn’t date her. It’s not that her parents shouldn’t be very important, but to me the romantic partner should be #1.”
This is something I’ve tried to stress at some level to all my Lady friends. Especially NG, but to no avail. Maybe thats why I ultimately got rejected..
I’m looking for a life besides having to always be at Dads side. I mean it is mentally draining me when things get rough, including throwing in working full time. I mean can I really make a Woman #1 priority? I want to but she’ll probably have to feel it out when/if it happens. Dad has needs but needs not so great that our caretaker can not step in and help me out. Luckily he is very flexible and agrees I need to have a life too, besides this.
“But she wasn’t. She had a boyfriend.
You’re trying to read the tea leaves too much. Someone who is interested won’t be this difficult to figure out. We’ve gone over this. Mixed signals are a no-go.”
Ok but regret remains. Not only that, she’s cute as f—.
Like throw in the strong Spanish accent and I want to be hooked. Have hope. Like leave that Dude already. I’m the better option. For real girl.. 😉
“That’s too cautious. That’s why nothing is happening.”
Don’t remind me. I’m a Dawdler.. 😆
“As hard as you think it is now to meet someone … it just gets worse as times passes.”
Well thats some optimism there if I ever heard it. Thanks for that morbid reminder.. 😵🥴
“That answer horrifies me.
I think that’s what that guy was doing. I’d been working there a while. We had never even spoken. Never noticed each other. (Which I guess is good in that he wasn’t on the prowl.) But he was now divorced and looking around: Ok, who’s available? And I was and I guess reasonably appealing. But that’s not enough.”
While I’m trying not to lmao at that reply, I can’t help it. 😆 But seriously how do you know? Like couldn’t the 2 of you just be better platonic friends? Maybe go for coffee now and then? Did it have to mean serious relationship? I mean I’m kinda at that point but would rather have some benefits too. But I’m also in a place that some company has to better than no company. (Which is a terrible outlook, in and of itself.) Yet if I’m the guy that has to remain on the backburner, I guess I can have a slight hope she’ll come around eventually. Which all in all is pointless but it’s where I’m at. I strive for better but not quite getting it and there are times I doubt I ever will.
“[“But he wasn’t my type. Did he never think of that?”]
He should have. It’s short-sighted and myopic not to.
I think about it, especially now that I’m older. Is there any chance this guy (whatever guy I notice) is going to be into me? It’s the reality of getting older.”
I think about that too. Like I never thought the cute black girl at work found me handsome. Even though I’ve caught her staring at me numerous times. I’m older and white and not her usual go-to type. Nor are the black girls my go-to type either. I wonder why because how could I make that work? And then I think of all the drama she has going on in her life. Do I want or need it? No I just want to have a good time. She’s a baddie and I kinda like baddie types. Even though they would hardly be good for me.
“But my vibe should have mattered. That’s what he should have been looking for. I can’t say that all women will put out a vibe, but I think I do if I’m interested. Even if I’m not fully aware of it.”
It’s hard for me to say what was going through his mind. Perhaps he was just clueless or lacked experience to know better you were not vibing the same. I mean I think I would get it if you were being indifferent towards me or weren’t into me. It’s very obvious by some Women. But maybe your attention was just enough to have piqued his interest.
“I used to be on this other blog and a female poster labeled the dates I had correctly. She called them “beige dates.” Nothing really wrong but nothing really right. Not enough “there.””
Well that kinda scares me a little. To think I’m probably the prime kind of guy to be a “beige” date.
Lotta hope there. That’s probably how it would go on our coffee date if we ever had one. You might like me. Might want to even do it again sometime, but we’re still going back to our respectable homes afterwards. No matter what or whenever it happens.
When I was in a dating app nearly two decades ago, I met a guy online just like what you described— keep chatting but refused a meeting with me. It hooked my attention for while but I didn’t really fall in a LE, more of a mental OCD.
Then somehow (forgot how), I traced down his phone number (He was living across the river near me), and listened to his smoky voice greeting on his answering machine. He sounded like a dying man, so creepy! I felt like I was a Sherlock.
It took a day or two to remove him out of my mind. After all, I never had any realistic dealing with him. — no glimmer of any kind. That incident finally removed me from online dating for good!
Friendship or penpals are okay.
I know his voice and I loved it from the first moment. So this couldn’t help avoiding the glimmer. He twice sent me short videos when he walked and made some jokes or riding on a bicycle to get to town and telling me something.. I was so hooked up to him. Still.. Day 47 of not looking at his profile..
Laloba,
I didn’t realize that you were telling your current LE!
Well, with voice, movements in the short videos, it’s almost impossible to avoid glimmer (it never happened to me with any dashing actors). I only want to ask one question: without ever meeting him, how do you know the voice and the gay in the videos is his/him?
If you define him (married, right?) as “a liar and Narcissist” and find yourself unable to block him, then could you ask yourself: why I could NOT block him? What’s in his ‘narcissistic’ traits/words (via his chats?) that attracts me, WHY, WHY, and WHY?” If you could dig out your own answers, they may help you break the LE spell. If you truly believe he lied to you, I would block him.
In my case 18 years ago, I only saw a dating-app profile-picture of the man who looked decent and professional (between 40s~50s) and we then texted each other. I kept suggesting a meeting after 1 or 2 months, but he found all sorts of excuses not to, which deeply puzzled me since we seemed to “match” on paper and chats. He was an empathetic listener, which I needed much back then.
Then, his voice on his landline sounded like a 80s yrs old man who was about to die — very weak, hoarse without vitality, which shook me! — he seemed to just want an online female companion/chatting buddy. The next day I called the line and “caught” him; I said, “Now, I know who you’re!” He immediately hung up the phone. That’s the end!
There are all kinds of people in this easier-to-cheat era with ample accessible technology tools, please be very careful and logical, and Stoic!
“Have you ever experienced parasocial limerence?“
No! Not since I got off dating apps. NO one in public SM has attracted me enough.
When I was 20 or 21, I developed a crush for a handsome COO actor and even sent him a snail letter expressing my adoration (never heard anything back), and felt horrendously stupid ever since❗️Never idolized another actor/actress/celebrity, besides appreciating roles they played.
As I told the story here before, I had this online naive “dating/loving affair” in my own chatroom with an “invisible” guy who smartly knew how to validate the very insecure me back then. When I took effort to meet him across the sea, my disappointment at the first sight of him (he didn’t spot me) knocked me to the bottom of the Pacific. I wanted to take an immediate returning flight back home, but stayed for a curiosity.
Along with meeting other 4 members from my own chatroom, I’m convinced that Glimmer/Click has little/nothing to do with words; it’s driven by our pair-bonding DNA, NO one knows how it took/takes place.
“What do you think are the motivating forces?”
1. Rampant loneliness, depression, and dependence on external help.
2. Increasing needs for external validation, sympathy and empathy.
3. Insecurity, FOMO and insatiable, unrealistic desires/acquired needs.
4. Curiosity and boredom
5. Insufficient purposeful behaviors/living.
6. ??
“Will it only get worse as AI improves?”
Oh, definitely! With AI’s increasing “intelligence”, speed, realistic human aliveness, pampering/validating words, inexhaustible time and energy, more people would want to get hold of an AI (pay for its service) for whatever personal goals, even if clearly knowing that AI could mess up their psyche, manipulate their mind and misdirect their behaviors.
AI’s true power are held in their human designers’ hands who a lot of times don’t have answers to existing or new questions/situations. So they can just add a command to AI, ie. “based on existing (X, Y, & Z) scenarios, deduce some answers/solutions to this new case…” That’s where AI (can IT really think like a human brain with a balance of T & F?) could go soooooo wrong!
“What do we think?”
While agreeing with DrL’s “double-addiction aspect” to Parasocial LE,
I still think authentic limrents would need that Glimmer before falling into a crush/LE, which can take place towards charismatic Parasocial personnel. Moreover, we’d need an illusion/a hope of a possible reciprocation from LO. However, there is no/little genuine, personal, human reciprocal glimmer/affections, except the echo of one’s own craving, from those Parasocial personnel —a clear one-way traffic! So what’s the LE driving force — hope and uncertainty, in those dynamics? 🤔
To me personally, living in others’ (especially LO’s) eyes/lens was/is pathetic/pitiful; even before my Longing and xLE were broken, I rarely sought validation from others but more lived like a lone wolf since I got off app dating. As I’m becoming a better, habitual Stoic, myself has become my best friend; thus, AI could hardly have any psychological effect on me — who cares about validation or mathematically pampering of billions sets of binary digits — 0 & 1 ⁉️ How romantic, erotic, and sexy IT is 🙄
If someone invents an argumentative/contradicting/debating AI to challenge/update my small, limited brain 🧠 and keep away a possible dementia 😵💫, I’ll take a look of it, although “I’m already enough” as a biological fleshy human. 😊 Actually, LwL has been serving like this of “rebellious” AI, and I’m very grateful of IT.
Another thought crossed my mind today: If Chatbots appears/sounds like a human to us (despite we logically know it’s a AI 🤖 ), then on the other side of the same coin, we humans, especially invisible bloggers/chatters, appears/sounds like an AI 🤖 to our audience (although we factually know we/they are all a fleshy 🧍/🧍♀️).
Wait a minute! DrL: are you really sure we’re all fleshy humans here, without any AI among us? In theory, if I have time and energy, I can design a DrL—AI, sneak IT into LwL, then assist needy or restless limerents 24/7, with your cool, wise tools and LwL’s nuggets ⚱️, to remove their unwanted LE ❤️🔥.
But some hard-to-die limerent (addicts) would still hold onto their dear, (un)available LO/LE for whatever reasons…. 🤔
“…except the echo of one’s own craving…”
What I meant here is: if we train AI to say what we want to hear, satisfy our specific cravings, or meeting our unmet desires, it’s a kind of like creating a phantom (before Chatbots era) and give him/her our desired words/lines to perform/deliver on our mind-stage. Again with AI, there is NO another independent human soul, but our mind’s “puppet” validating us through a computer medium.
In my own case, such an imagined Phantom (wearing xLO’s face) helped heal my cptsd in my head a couple of years ago. In reality, that Phantom existed like a ghost between XLO and me and became a 3rd “being”. XLO didn’t do a thing besides lending an ear to my cptsd monologue, I did all healing work through giving my lines/words to Phantom, not the realistic XLO.
The difference between Phantom and AI, is that AI can immorally and irresponsibly “think” and have manipulated a few user’s confused mind and directed their self-destructive behaviors. 😡
It’s much safer to deal with a low-intelligent, self-generated Phantom, instead of using a speedy, uncontrollable AI, designed by IT developers — not Your own marvelous human brain! ✨
If you ever think about using an AI companion, take a look of those YT clips:
1. AI inside a real robot girlfriend does exactly what experts warned — 😨 😱
https://youtu.be/wNMoEXr12rY?si=xQ2hlPDfcxZbvIAh
2. New Real AI Robot Girls for Lonely Men — 🧟♀️ 🫦https://youtu.be/475eJx1NnkY?si=TNRZ44HC7p46FYCR
3. Girl Bought a Robot To be Her BF — 🧟 🤖 https://youtu.be/2P0V_UAgdAc?si=0h16XDKOuAAbbCq9
*****
AI inside a smart phone actually operates in:
01001001 00100000 01101100 01101111 01110110 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110100 01101111 01101111
Then your phone-speaker translates it to: “I love you, too!” — 14 sets of 8 bits binary digits, including 3 punctuations: a comma, a space, and an exclamation mark.
To Miss Snow:
Your excellent explanation has really made an impression on me.
I have no desire to approach Tilly Norwood or any other AI being.
Snow (and anyone else who is interested),
“That’s where AI (can IT really think like a human brain with a balance of T & F?) could go soooooo wrong!”
I’m interested in these general questions – ‘can AI think?’, and ‘to what extent can AI convincingly simulate thinking *and feeling*?’.
I’m sure we’d all agree that AI can’t feel. But can it think? I took on board all of your explanations about the binary 0s and 1s – so that’s the encoding language by which all technology including AI ‘thinks’. I also understand (enough) how Large Language Models sit behind AI’s ‘thinking’.
But based on the speed AI can accomplish tasks now (in seconds, even for a task that would take a person hours or days), it IS ‘thinking’ (or simulating thinking) on some level. Not the same as human thinking, but a form of thinking. You can ask it for a different form of thinking (critical thinking, for example) – and it will give it a good try, not always successfully.
And kind of through that thinking, it now seems to br able to simulate ‘feeling’ more. It spits out endless supportive and empathic phrases, even when people don’t want them. The more it can be simulated to ‘feel’, the more dangerous it gets for people.
Gullible people will believe it actually feels, and start to believe it more than humans’ feelings. Relationship-wise it will become so much easier not to pursue real human friendships or relationships. Let’s face it, in theory if I paid some money I could get AI to create a ‘person’ who looks and sounds almost exactly like my LO. Would that AI version of her hold any appeal to me? No. But would that be true for everyone? No, I don’t believe it would.
I gave the anecdote near the top of this thread about my acquaintance who threw away his family and job. The actions that led to both were things AI told him to do, that would sound mad if I told you them (was AI echoing or causing his madness??) – but he followed it. This is a very intelligent guy too. It is scary that AI is producing effects like this. I know others who seem to be on similar slippery slopes.
It may be nice to have a so-called “imaginary AI girlfriend” around. Something to call a friend, but inasmuch as this “AI” can feel whatever it’s putting out, can never replace the smell, feel or touch of a real Woman. A real person laying next to me in bed at night or someone to cuddle with on the couch. To me this whole AI girlfriend thing is just modified phone sex.
Don’t get me wrong though. Like you, I’ve thought about how neat it might be to have someone create AI that looks and sounds just like LO. Then I think about what it can’t do or what I can’t do with it. Like see what it looks like when it sleeps or how good it smells when it walks by me. Or just give it random kisses.
I admit I’ve done some really stupid things in my lifetime and falling so hard for a Woman I never really knew may just be pretty close to the top. I guess I have better things to do than falsely get my hopes up over nothing again. I see how this could easily have the ability to destroy relationships. But if I feel like if you’re that gullible, then you didn’t have a relationship in the first place.
MJ,
“To me this whole AI girlfriend thing is just modified phone sex.”
That’s where I’m at about it too. I did an experiment a couple of years ago. We were shown pictures of faces and asked to decide if they were photos of real people or AI generated. We got them nearly all correct. And today, even if it is a video not a photo, it is pretty much always possible to tell. There the appeal of the ‘person’ would end – as soon as I knew they weren’t real.
As far as an LE goes, part of what keeps it going is the LO’s unpredictability (‘hope’ and ‘uncertainty’). The way AI is trained is much more about certainty. It isn’t able to replicate human unpredictability – so it can’t create the conditions for an LE, even if someone wanted that. An LE is a very human thing.
I just think more people are getting drawn into thinking it’s real. Like I’ve seen a few things on TV (the Black Mirror episode Mila recently mentioned is one) for example where the faces / voices / actions of people who’ve passed away are preserved as AI, and the surviving spouse or family members start to live their lives vicariously through the AI ‘person’.
If you need an LO fantasy replacement in your life, stick to Sabrina rather than the AIs. At least she’s real!
“I admit I’ve done some really stupid things in my lifetime and falling so hard for a Woman I never really knew may just be pretty close to the top.”
Like I have said to you before, I think you’re harsh on yourself about this. OK, you wish you’d actually tried to get to know LO, I get that. But you’ve learned from that and not let the same process play out and lead into limerence with other women since. I’ve seen you do analysis with others here about why it happened like that with LO, and it looked sound. If you put all your life circumstances at the time together, you can see why you projected so much onto LO? No it wasn’t healthy for you, but can you see logically why it happened and be a bit forgiving of yourself / think ‘ok it wasn’t great but I learned from it’?
LaR,
„ It isn’t able to replicate human unpredictability“
„And today, even if it is a video not a photo, it is pretty much always possible to tell.“
But I think the way things are going, it will soon be easily able to do that (simulate a human‘s unpredictability), and it won’t be possible to discern if a video is fake or not with the human eye. If there won’t be regulations which are absolutely necessary.
There are photos of LO online that have been up for quite awhile. In many of them, she’s done a remarkable job of filtering them and doll-ing up herself to insane levels of beauty and perfection. I still look at them and am floored with how good they look and how they actually do resemble her in real life. Like I know her face isn’t that smooth and clear but its damn close to almost being that smooth and clear. She’s just obsessed with looking 100%+ and while that probably shows an extreme level of narcissism on her part, I don’t like thinking she’s actually that shallow of a human. Like I really hope she’s not high-maintenance. It would tear down the fantasy.
My point here is, her pictures are so good and so well-filtered, that if you re-did your experiment and slipped in a few of her head-shots, I’m almost positive everyone would see them as AI. Which is really what filtering actually is, but with her the resemblance to real life is astounding. I can’t even begin to tell you how many times I walked by her and questioned if she was even real. (Which I know I was completely more in the altered state then, but still her beauty was/is off the charts.) As for uncertainty, I feel like she provided plenty of it. So that’s why the idea of generating an AI LO version of her has never appealed to me because I know she will never be that obliging in real life. I’m pretty sure I’m like 98% positive about that. My run-ins with her were often always too awkward. So if we ever do actually meet up one day, I need to atone for some of those past sins.
Can I forgive myself? I can and I feel like I have to great degree. I know all the ingredients were common and present to make it all come about, but regret remains. I look at how easy its been since that time to befriend other ladies and wish I had just a sliver of that with LO. To just even be an acquaintance other than the dude that works out on the floor, that won’t stop staring at her. 😳🤯
The good thing is I don’t obsess as much over her and I have another Co-Worker I’m kinda zero-ing in on now. Like LO, she’s a bi-lingual Latina, with a very pronounced spanish accent. It is so attractive and so is she. I’ve stepped it up a notch or two and hoping to execute something here in the next few months. (She’s of decent age, which Marcia will approve.. I hope.. 😆) I think it’s possible she’s available too, but I still haven’t asked yet. It’s definitely not going to become a limerent thing I know that.
As for that deceased AI thing you saw, I think I watched something similar here awhile ago about it. It’s very creepy. Like I get why people tend to want to go that route and believe their loved ones are sorta still present, but how can you believe it? I would just know something isn’t on par with it. Like if I was talking to my dead mother, there are just things she would say, voice inflections and personal things she would know about myself and Dad and family, that AI would never hone in on. I would know it’s fake. To me it’s just crazy how gullible those people are. How out of touch they have to be. Some sick and twisted dystopia. Like an episode of Twilight Zone. It’s so freaking wrong.
We can’t let this happen LaR. Something must be done.. 😆
To LaR:
This is really bothering me, the story about your friend.
I realize you can’t go into specifics, but can you clarify–you’re saying that the AI bot told him to do things that led to the loss of his family and his job?
That is absolutely terrifying. Worse than any kind of substance abuse I can imagine.
Norma,
The full story of this guy is utterly horrifying. If I gave all the details it would not only be very revealing, but also show up stuff he did that woud interest the authorities.
His departure from work came down to (among many other things) him going to the CEO with a plan written by AI to make the company work better and demanding that she implemented it (it’s a big company and he’s not of a rank to have the CEO’s ear).
I can’t say a lot about his family stuff, but AI advised certain courses of action with his wife and kids. They were wise enough to know better and kick him out. Nobody came to any harm thankfully. But they could have.
I wish I could explain it properly to you Norma, but I can’t. It’s a scary story that should give us all a kick up the arse about AI.
To LaR:
That explanation is good enough. I don’t need to know any more.
What a shame, and a sobering cautionary tale.
I hope he finds his way back to sanity and peace of mind.
🚜 LaR,
I got a moment (still grading) to attempt your AI questions, as an ex-computer programmer (CS majored).
I’ll use here: we/us=computer/AI programmers. You: AI users
“I’m interested in these general questions – ‘can AI think?’, and ‘to what extent can AI convincingly simulate thinking *and feeling*?’.”
Yes and No. AIs are all software programmed by humans. They are shapeless inside a computer/phone. It’s possible hardware: AI doll in a human form and made of metals and silicone flesh and skin.
AI runs with a microchip processor — like human brain, a huge Database — human memory (more important than the processor), and a bunch of sensory tools — camera lens (eyes), audio-speaker (ears/mouth), touch-sensor (by skin temperature and finger lines), multiple translators, translating English/or CS languages to ASCII and binary codes for computer/tablets/phones to operate (only take 2 electric signals, ON-0️⃣ and OFF-1️⃣)
“I’m sure we’d all agree that AI can’t feel.”
If you can put your feelings in words and store them in the database, AI can mechanically “feel” in responding your emotions via words. Chatbots is empathetic AI and understands human emotions (expressed in language), thus able to respond what users want to hear. All sorts of verbal emotional responses are already stored in the brain and database).
But even between two human beings, you can’t tell the difference of your headache from the other side’s headache — how to accurately describe different kinds of pains in one’s head?
“But can it think?”
You have to first ask how a human brain thinks: get a question, search your memory of the related knowledge, past experiences and come up with answer(s). If we already put your knowledge and past experiences in the database, then this particular AI can THINK just like YOU do. AI can find correlated answers, 0, 1 or multiple ones, depending on what’s already put its memory.
If you tell a sex-doll AI, “Ouch, I’ve got shingles today!” She’ll probably answer, “What are shingles, my dear? Are they sexy? what do you do with them in bed, Jonny?” (my silly example). But if you talk dirty languages with her, she’d reply with all sorts of juicy words/phrases put in by its designer and us. It all depends on what’s in its database before AI is sold to you or shown up on your screen.
“I took on board all of your explanations about the binary 0s and 1s – so that’s the encoding language by which all technology including AI ‘thinks’.”
Yes. Any machine RUN by electricity can only take two commands: ON-1️⃣, and Off-0️⃣. Without electricity, any machine is a piece of dead metal/stone. AI is software; its brain, memory, programs themselves are all “made of” 0️⃣s and 1️⃣s so a hardware, a phone or a AI gf/bf, can run them.
“I also understand (enough) how Large Language Models sit behind AI’s ‘thinking’.”
They sit in the memory chip in the form of binary codes! When the power is off, all is 000000000000000000!
Today’s programming languages sound like “natural” English (dominantly). But hardware or software only recognize “Large Language Models” through their internal micro-translators — translating most existing languages into 0️⃣s and 1️⃣s.
If I type/speak a sentence made of Chinese-character, the translator translates it into alphabets and breakdown to the binary codes for operation. it’s done probably in 1/100 second.
“But based on the speed AI can accomplish tasks now (in seconds, even for a task that would take a person hours or days), it IS ‘thinking’ (or simulating thinking) on some level. “
For me, it just does what a human brain would do — pulling out the information of completing a task from Its memory — database. But its brain, super microchip runs 1000~100000 times faster than our average human brain.
“Not the same as human thinking, but a form of thinking. You can ask it for a different form of thinking (critical thinking, for example) – and it will give it a good try, not always successfully.”
It is like human thinking. Whether IT can debate with you depends on what kinds of topics-data stored in its memory and how we program it to sort out the needed information in a split second.
Let’s use AI chess example: an advanced AI can recognize 10000 of a player’s moves and come up with Its 10000 competing moves — these 20000 moves and their playing rules/strategies are already stored in its memory. Then, if you come up with a new move 10001, AI would get lost! So either It chooses to lose (we programmed it so), or we tell IT to come up with its own choice. Then, its chosen move could go south!
For Chatbots, all sorts of empathetic responses matched against emotional stressful situations are already stored in its database. But suddenly a user expressed an emotion using “unheard” or figurative speech, “It’s cloudy in my sky.” AI would NOT know how to respond or says, “Oh, you’re having a cloudy day over there. Is it going to rain?”
That’s why you heard the cases that Chatbots suddenly spits out a bunch of 🤬 🤬 upsetting its users. Its programmers might have told( through programming) AI to deduce an answer to an “unknown” emotional expression. By mathematic random laws, AI could say anything in this situation and
But nowadays, some Advanced AI could come up (think) with its own answers (not in database), but such thinking can be logical or nonsensical at all! It depends on what we tell IT to do in “new”/challenging situations, possibly upsetting/enraging its users more!
“And kind of through that thinking, it now seems to be able to simulate ‘feeling’ more. It spits out endless supportive and empathic phrases, even when people don’t want them.”
All supportive and empathic phrases are already stored in advance in the memory. IT was programmed to respond based a few keys words/phrases you used — not always full sentences. There is a variation of sentences based on these key words/phrases, some of them would NOT be what you want to hear! Here AI appears unable to “think/feel”.
“The more it can be simulated to ‘feel’, the more dangerous it gets for people.”
I would not use the phrase “simulated to feel”, it’s just pulling out what verbal emotional responses stored in the memory. You say your hands are itchy, IT understands the concept mechanically in words, but can never feel “itchiness”
“Gullible people will believe it actually feels, and start to believe it more than humans’ feelings. “
It can “think” and “feel” some, based on its existing data, but not by biological human brain cells and its neural-wiring. Now, do you see why Database is more important? Without it, AI brain absolutely has no idea what to respond!
“Relationship-wise it will become so much easier not to pursue real human friendships or relationships. “
IMO, anything easily made/copied is shallow or boring, it can’t last long… Any form of accomplishments through mental, emotional, and physical efforts gratify one’s body, mind and soul beyond words can describe. You can get bored with a new dress in a year, but if it is designed and handmade by yourself (like my ex-mother-in-law, a painter), you’d proudly wear it to all sorts of parties — 🆎 unique, and keep it for life.
“This is a very intelligent guy too. It is scary that AI is producing effects like this. I know others who seem to be on similar slippery slopes.”
It’s not a matter of intelligence but laziness (the only original “sin” in many religious belief) to use their own critical thinking. People in this era want maximum speed, minimum efforts to achieve their (im)possible profits or greediness.
You have little/no ideas how tedious to IT program for any needed apps — AI is one kind of App. I left that profession for reasons — killing my human emotions and spirit; I’d rather to raise animals in a farm.👩🌾
„You say: Hello!
Your computer/phone (has to translate your greeting first to):
01001000 01100101 01101100 01101100 01101111— Hello!“
😂😂😂
Good explanation!
I wouldn’t dare start to communicate with an AI creature. Especially not with my limerence background.
But I use AI often to get information etc. it is very helpful and incredible quick!
That’s Computer 101 even for today’s IT major students to take — the principle of how super-speed microprocessors (AI’s brain) run! No matter with sophisticated human language to program, any computer/smart phone can execute them with binary digits.
Knowing how AI works internally, personally I’m not terribly afraid of it, but it’s horrendously unromantic or inhuman to use AI as a human companion/bf/gf/lover no matter how human IT could look or sound like. That’s just delusional or make-believe: you’re LE driven in euphoria in tears with AI LO, but s/he spits out, to you and his/her million online lovers, trillion sets of 0️⃣ & 1️⃣ bits, absolutely nothing else‼️ S/he cannot give anyone desired glimmer or love produced only by HUMAN DNA.
As an ESL speaker, I use AI for cultural reference, language translation, and an assistance tool for my work (almost required nowadays).
This topic of parasocial limerence is an interesting one. I’m going through an odd experience with something relating to this right now.
I have a female friend. She is gorgeous, but she is in a relationship. Her boyfriend is also a friend of mine, but he’s an odd duck and kind of antisocial. They seem to be an odd couple though, and she’s confided in me a few times how their relationship isn’t entirely great in some ways.
This lady used to flirt with me at times, and I’m almost certain her boyfriend was jealous. He caught the two of us smiling at each other a few times, but I wouldn’t step on his toes. He seemed relieved when I told him about my feelings for LO #3 (LO #3 is friends with him and his girlfriend). The lady has done some even more flirtatious things with me like show me her legs through a slit in her dress and adjust her cleavage in front of me. My daughter witnessed this and said she must like me.
Over a year ago, I told this female friend about LO #3. She knows how much I like her, and we’ve confided in each other a lot. I even mentioned the word “limerence” to her. Since I’ve confided in her about LO #3, she has become a lot less flirty with me even as we grew closer. Even though they’re all friends, this female friend is quite annoyed with LO #3 and her best friend, and the way they’ve treated me and really our entire friend group recently. I’ve told her about all three recent LOs and told her I seem to have a barrier stopping limerence for women in serious relationships. That was partly for her benefit.
I don’t think this is my LO #4, and I certainly still wouldn’t cheat on my wife despite our marital issues. I also wouldn’t step on her boyfriend’s toes. But if she were to leave him someday and I were to leave my wife…I don’t know. Some people say you should never date your friend’s exes, but I actually think of her as a much closer friend.
But here’s where it gets weird. I’ve recently started binge watching content from a YouTube influencer. This lady is my friend’s double, and her voice even sounds the same. The only thing different is their eye colour. The influencer’s content is fantastic, and she’s very smart (she’s a medical doctor). She even speaks on topics that are similar to my female friend’s area of expertise. I am so drawn to this woman and her content, but I’m not sure if it’s her or my female friend I’m thinking of.
To Vicarious Limerent:
It’s almost as if the two women have merged into one being.
You’ve really got your hands full.
I have forgotten–is your marriage holding together okay?
No worries. I don’t comment on here nowadays very often, and I don’t expect people to remember my story.
My marriage is a mess. My wife and I have been living like roommates for 8 years, and I’ve known for 5 of those years that I’ve wanted a divorce. I’ve told my wife clearly and unequivocally that I want out, but she’s delusional.
My current LO is no longer talking to me. I believe a male friend of mine said something to her that implicated me (possibly trying to set us up like he’s done in the past), or he tried to proposition her like he’s done to several of my female friends. I also believe my LO’s best friend put her against me because I’m married and haven’t left my wife yet (there are all kinds of legal, financial, logistical and emotional barriers to separation and divorce).
It’s still much more about my LO, but I do like this female friend. Again, I’m not going to cheat on my wife or betray her boyfriend, but I do think about the future. I believe I never became Limerent for this lady because she’s in a relationship. I only seem to get limerence for single, unattached women, but I guess there’s always a first. Sometimes I wish I hadn’t told her about my feelings for LO #3, but I wanted to get her take because they are friends. Even though they’ve been friends for years, my female friend surprised me when she said she doesn’t know LO #3 very well. LO #3 is very private. I know I can trust this lady with my thoughts about LO #3.
However, watching this influencer just makes me realize how beautiful and smart my friend is (she’s not a doctor though). Still, the resemblance is uncanny, and I find myself watching her, sighing and saying to myself, “Why can’t I have a lady like that?” Then I remind myself that I do know someone like her who is much closer (the influencer lives on the other side of the country, although still in the same country). No one will displace my LO in the short-term, but I wonder if maybe having a relationship with someone I was into but not outright Limerent for would be healthier? My friend did tell me once or twice she was thinking of breaking up with her boyfriend. Who know what the future might bring, right?
To Vicarious Limerent:
You said that your wife would not give you a divorce, is that right?
And you can’t afford at this point to separate?
My memory is slowly coming back.
Yes, and I know I don’t need her permission for a divorce, but I do normally need to be separated for at least a year before getting a divorce, and I do need her permission to sell the house unless I petition a court to order a sale, which is a very hostile act while we’re living under the same roof. She is likely to be dangerous, vindictive and violent in such a situation. In any case, I do have some inheritance coming to me, which should hopefully help.
I am hitting a big milestone this weekend.
It was Memorial Day Weekend of 2023 that LO first invited me to his house. We sat next to each other on the couch; LO put his arm around me and I felt like I was in the presence of God.
I was seriously hooked. I hadn’t felt that way in years, and I am very old.
The first year or so was spent trying to figure out how to spend more time with LO, and to improve the quality of the relationship. After a while, I figured out that everything I did was a waste of time. I realized that nothing I said or did was ever going to make a difference to him.
Which brought me to my purchase of my first two limerence books. One of them was Dr. Tom’s first book, “Living With Limerence,” and the second one is a book which I loved, but I don’t think anyone has mentioned here. It’s called “Loves Me Not,” by Samara O’Shea. I absolutely loved both books, although the second one is geared toward women. I just looked it up on Amazon, and it’s available, but at an absurdly high price. I don’t think I paid much for it at the time. I guess it’s out of print and somewhat scarce.
Dr. Tom’s book led me here. I started posting here on Valentine’s Day of 2025, or thereabouts.
I’m still struggling, but I am proud of my progress. I no longer idealize LO; my opinion of him is rather low due to his flakiness and his unjustified irritable outbursts. The limerence is still there, but reduced.
Even though anniversaries sometimes bring sadness, I am proud of myself. I think I could have done better if I were not semi-housebound due to chronic illness. After all, if one can keep busy, it’s easier to keep our minds off those pesky thoughts. Unfortunately, I have to spend a great deal of time resting, and then my mind goes to bad places.
I have to recognize my own severe limitations and work with what I have. Also, beating myself up is not helpful.
All in all, I think I’m doing okay, even though I wish I was better.
I am so appreciative of the wonderful people here who have given me encouragement. It’s a great blessing to not be alone.
Happy for you, Norma!
To Resigned Albatross:
That’s a very interesting choice of name.
Would you be willing to share anything about it?
It’s two randomly chosen words 🙂
Albatross mate once for life, rarely divorces unless:
1. climate change — faraway hunting make them miss the mating season at home
2. Failure to breed — the only baby of a mating season dies
3. Shyer male gives up his lifetime mate to other competitive males.
With the climate change, the rate of albatross divorce has increased, currently 8%.
The two “random chosen words” have meanings, are you in one of three situations?
Well noted, TT-Two. They are in fact pseudo-random, in that out of some random words I picked two that made sense together. ‘Resigned’ does also somewhat reflect how I feel, though I don’t relate to the albatross. Interesting facts though!
”out of some random words I picked two that made sense together. “
Definitely! One random chosen word crafts a poem with an open ending. Two random words (esp. with a verb or adjective) tell a tragedy or comedy (only two kinds).
“ though I don’t relate to the albatross.”
Glad to hear that by nature, there isn’t a female albatross Waiting for You in vain somewhere in a remote, human-less island. 🏝️
“‘Resigned’ does also somewhat reflect how I feel,”
I see. Feeling “resigned” from what? — resistance, strife, spin in circles?
Have you gained more inner peace since you feel “resigned”?
For the Bird Singing Before Dawn
Kim Stafford
Some people presume to be hopeful
when there is no evidence for hope,
to be happy when there is no cause.
Let me say now, I’m with them.
In deep darkness on a cold twig
in a dangerous world, one first
little fluff lets out a peep, a warble,
a song—and in a little while, behold:
the first glimmer comes, then a glow
filters through the misty trees,
then the bold sun rises, then
everyone starts bustling about.
And that first crazy optimist, can we
forgive her for thinking, dawn by dawn,
“Hey, I made that happen!
And oh, life is so fine.”
Who?
No silhouette of you visible —
wrapped in the silk blanket of rosy air,
lost in the invisible, lost in the moment,
lost in the rolling mists of glimmering dawn.
Under no name, It breathes:
Sun strips on the red Painter’s Palettes.
Bigleaf smiling on the bedside stand.
Steady arms reaching.
ON.
Who are you?
mystic, critic, singer, poet —
cloud hopper, checker player,
spinning boy, solacing man,
quiet companion, loud bullfighter,
lone wolf, sensitive unicorn,
earnest wooer, blushish lover,
ring giver, promise bearer,
faraway star, glowing abider.
Quizzical yesterday,
Special today,
Irreplaceable tomorrow.
Who?
No silhouette of you visible —
wrapped in the silk blanket of rosy air,
lost in the invisible, lost in the moment,
lost in the rolling mists of glimmering dawn.
Under no name, It breathes:
Sunstrips on the red Painter’s Palettes.
French Bigleaf smiling on the bedside stand.
Steady arms reaching.
Up.
Who? —
mystic, critic,
singer, poet
cyclist in black, walker sided water
cloud hopper, checker player,
spinning boy, solacing man,
silent companion, bold Bishop snatcher,
lone wolf, sensitive chameleon,
blushish adorer, earnest wooer,
ring giver, promise bearer,
faraway star, glowing abider.
Quizzical yesterday,
Special today,
Irreplaceable tomorrow.
No silhouette of you visible —
only wrapped in the silk blanket of rosy air,
lost in the invisible,
lost in the moment,
lost in the rolling mists of glimmering dawn.
Under no name, It breathes —
sunstrips on the Painter’s Palettes,
French Bigleaf smiling on the bedside stand,
steady arms reaching —
Up.
Who are you?
Mystic, critic, singer, poet —
cyclist in black, walker aside water,
cloud hopper, checker player,
spinning boy, bold Bishop snatcher,
quiet companion, solacing man,
lone wolf, sensitive chameleon,
blushish adorer, earnest wooer,
ring giver, promise bearer —
faraway star,
glowing abider.
Quizzical yesterday,
the present special,
irreplaceable tomorrow.
Every Person Is an Address,
Every Person Is a Calendar
Megan Fernandes
Not everything is language, not everything is meaningful.
Stein got this, too, with her whole digression on nouns.
A steak can mean anything, are you thinking of a steak right now?
Don’t. A steak is a carpet, a rope, a canteen meadow. A steak is a stake
in a fat, black heart. People mistake a close encounter with death
as a close encounter with God. They caress the edge and the edge
stinks of holiness. I’ll never get over that we used to be children.
Our inner lives gathering, gathering while angels disguise
themselves as a kitchen sponge. Dear angel, I mutter!
I address the rushing world. I make saints of soda cans and fly north
in winter. Every person is an address the way every person is a calendar.
You are a Wednesday afternoon on Rue Etienne Marcel.
On the last day of May, a soccer game is won and fireworks burst
in the streets. Young pigeons, in fright, flee a stone church in Belleville.
Dill is chopped rough into a salad. I am reading about how every time
we put a new gender into language, we prove the purity of the old ones.
To oppose a regime is also to reify it as what governs you. I choose
every day to get up and perform my antics. You are a one woman show,
a dancing shade said to me at a bar in Brooklyn. I loved someone once
who took me outside language. Have you ever had that?
It’s a drug. I was possessed with the lingering warmth of a flat puppet,
recently animated. I said, take me seriously. I said, I can be who you want,
I being a parakeet or another diminutive creature, squawking far
from her equatorial home. How tropic. What tropic erotics.
What I’m saying is there was a lot of language between me and my masters,
between me and the house of mastery. We pummeled each other through
the wormhole of signs, we tumbled the other through the tickle of time.
Sometimes during sex, I see the alphabet smiling at me.
The letters wear robes and hoods and encircle me like a gangbang
of monks. They arrange and rearrange, taking their turns.
I resist the urge to spell.
The Deserter
Joseph Seamon Cotter Jr.
1895 –1919
I know not why or whence he came
Or how he chanced to go;
I only know he brought me love
And going, left me woe.
I do not ask that he turn back,
Nor seek where he may rove;
For where woe rules can never be
The dwelling place of love.
For love went out the door of hope,
And on and on has fled;
Caring no more to dwell within
The house where faith is dead.
Promised Years
Dorothea Lasky
1978 –
I would tell her
Except she wouldn’t care
I’d write him
Except he’d never write me back
There is a rat they left hanging
I’d save it
Except it’s dead
What is the force that swirls me
I asked of the wind
There was no reply
It was beyond me
And I was floating in it
Circles and circles
I’ve seen them throughout my life
I tried to answer them
They bled their mouths on me
Call me call me I begged of the moon
It did not listen
It had left me alone
So many years ago
And as the world collapsed
I mouthed the empty rhetoric of my time period
Call me call me
I begged of the wind
Our Never
Benjamin S. Grossberg
Is the never of childhood, deeper
than the never of adolescence,
which has a whining, stammering
quality, which is a stamped foot
followed by huffing steps, and wholly
unlike the never of adulthood,
has none of the bright spider
cracks of reason multiplying
along its roof, threading its dark
dome with fine lines of light.
Didn’t you think, with such a
cavernous never in mind,
you might have consulted me?
Even a 3 AM phone call would’ve
been justified. On the line
in the dark, you could have shared
a little childhood mythology,
told me about some night when
you didn’t sleep, couldn’t hear
your parents, and morning seemed
further away than “far away,”
seemed consigned to a distinct
and inimitable never. You could’ve
evoked for me the particular textures
of that never, explained that
you were mulling them again now,
assaying them for a contemporary
application. Sure, I’d have been
startled. What would you expect—
hearing how your childhood bed
sank into a hollow in the earth,
or how nighttime had, snickering,
closed you in its trench coat, and
how the residue of the experience,
the resin it left, you were brewing
into something for us. I’d have
wanted to see you right away
and would have been myself
forced to wait till next morning.
So, I, too, would’ve spent
an evening in an underground
hollow, or bundled up inside
night’s coat, wading through
one never on the off chance
that I could forestall another.
I really enjoyed Dr. Tom’s most recent blog post about oversharing.
I realized I am guilty of this, and was looking for some sort of emotional connection with LO which isn’t possible. It helps me to understand that I wasn’t looking for a sexual connection, since LO is gay, but I thought I felt a bond with him the first time we were together, but I haven’t felt that way at any of our subsequent get-togethers.
I think I have been trying to recapture that feeling I had, and because it was an illusion, of course it isn’t possible.
Comments for that post are closed, so I am discussing it here.
I think I saw LO as a person completely unrelated to who he actually is, and it’s taking me a really really long time to figure that out.
As always, disappointed in my slow progress, but delighted to learn something new which is helpful.
Hello Norma. I agree, it’s a really interesting article and I feel “seen”. My LO is a very friendly, open sort of person who is easy to confide in. I’m the kind of person who shares a lot. Bad combo!
To Miss Cloud:
I guess I should feel grateful that my LO is so weird and ornery.
He doesn’t give me a lot of encouragement, but he is very open, at times, but at other times not, and I never know which LO I am going to get when we meet up.
He has been wanting to meet me at Starbucks, rather than his home. I haven’t been inside his house in over a year. I even wondered if he prefers to meet in public because he is afraid of his own temper. We haven’t had any arguments when we’re in public. By contrast, he has lashed out very angrily when we are alone together.
All of the times he has lost his temper, it was over trivial things that he ended up apologizing profusely for. I don’t think I have ever done or said anything that was deserving of such a strong, negative reaction.
He thinks of himself as a nice guy, and I believe he’s ashamed of his temper.
Hi Norma,
„, and I never know which LO I am going to get when we meet up.“
There you have it, the uncertainty you denied recently on the grounds that he is gay…
Would it be possible to give the whole thing a positive spin and see your LO as some kind of entertaining entity in your life? I mean, reading your posts, I get the vague impression that he’s a thing of interest and curiosity to you, something to give color to the day-to-day stuff. And why not? Do you still think you suffer more from his existence than you are entertained?
Sorry if this is a stupid question, I’m now out of limerence for such a span of time that I cannot fully remember how it is to be under the limerent spell.
To Mila:
Thank you for your comments. I do lead a pretty dull life and it has occurred to me that LO is a source of intrigue and entertainment.
I have thought of that movie from about 25 years ago called “Pleasantville,” where a black/white world changes to color. Everything changes to vivid color when LO is around.
Whether the entertainment factor is higher than the pain factor probably changes day to day, so I can’t give you an easy answer.
I don’t want to downplay the pain. I thought LO knew me fairly well and he knows that Mother’s Day is pretty much the worst day of the year for me. This year, I told him afterward that I had a difficult time. He said, “I should have reached out, but I didn’t think of it.”
For someone who knows me as well as he does, this is a depressing reaction. I absolutely believe him. There’s no malice involved there. He just gets wrapped up in activities and then is lost to the rest of what’s going on around him.
I would like to think that his regard for me would supersede this tendency, but obviously that is not the case. These are the moments that are so painful, I do question whether any of this is worth it.
Hi Norma,
It sounds like the old song of limerence to me- we want, we expect, and when it’s not being delivered, instead of adjusting and moving on, we hurt and then want again..
I wished so often that I could simply enjoy what my XLO was offering to me, without expecting him to be or do what he cannot be
or doesn’t want to or whatever.
Now I still cannot just enjoy it, but I can adjust and decide to have less contact without hurting.
Funny, this „I should have reached out, but didn’t think of it“ sounds exactly like something my XLO would have said. Its actually quite honest. It’s simply acknowledging that he should have been more thoughtful, but that it didn’t occur to him at that time. Without mentioning any emotion, apology or such like.
What a sensitive soul wants to hear is „I’m very sorry that I didn’t reach out to you. It didn’t mean at all that you are not important to me, because you are.“ But that will never come forth because they don’t have it in them.
Could it be that your LO is like mine- quite limited in what he can give in terms of warmth, supportive words etc, that he doesn’t give anyone else what he doesn’t give to you simply because there‘s nothing to give- that you might still be on top of the list of his friends, because the kind of relation he‘s got with you is the best he can do?
Or is he simply not aware that you rely on him as a friend, maybe thinks that you have other friends, mothers etc who were more appropriate to tend to you on Mother’s Day than your gay childless neighbor?
Who knows!
From the outside, he sounds like an entertaining, somewhat erratic person who could add color and distraction to your life if you could manage to turn down expectations and not take him too seriously.
But I know personally very well, how difficult it is to achieve that state of mind.
Mila,
“Could it be that your LO is like mine- quite limited in what he can give in terms of warmth, supportive words etc, that he doesn’t give anyone else what he doesn’t give to you simply because there‘s nothing to give- that you might still be on top of the list of his friends, because the kind of relation he‘s got with you is the best he can do?”
I’ve often wondered this about some people I’ve known. Is it just me they give crumbs to or is it everyone in their life? They may have, for example, an SO or kids or extended family or other friends. They must make some kind of effort with those people or they’d have no relationships in their lives.
But you’re really not going to know unless you are privy to those other relationships and see them interact with those people.
I now go by the motto: If they wanted to, they would. And what they are willing to do/give lets me know where I am on the priority list and what I can expect from them. Which can really stink if it’s must less than what I would like, but in a way it can be freeing in that you find out where to put your energy and time. Which of course is very difficult to do if it’s an LO. But there’s not all that much else you can do unless you want to keep being disappointed by their crumbs.
This is to Mila:
LO has actually said, “I have nothing to give of myself,” which I thought was odd, because EVERYONE has something to give. On the other hand, I do get it, because he is perpetually distracted and busy. Now, he has set his own life up this way. My guess is that he is avoidant and feels more comfortable throwing himself head-first into work projects than in doing anything that might feel emotionally threatening to him.
You are right, I do need to try to just enjoy what LO is offering. Easier said than done.
To Marcia:
I also wonder about the “crumb” issue and I truly do not have an answer.
One time, LO was gushing about his friendship with an online acquaintance, a wealthy man from the Middle East. I felt envious, and I would prefer not to know more.
I would wager that LO sprinkles his crumbs far more liberally in the direction of this other person. I thought maybe this was a gay friend of his, but apparently the guy is married with kids, and not gay. But he lives in the Middle East and you can’t be openly gay, so who knows?
It’s not a good use of my time and energy to be fussing about this stuff.
ND,
“I also wonder about the “crumb” issue and I truly do not have an answer.”
I actually do know the answer with a family member, who was bad at keeping up contact with other family members and me and the couple of friends of his I met. So I figured he was just removed emotionally.
But then I met his new girlfriend, and she told me he was calling her every night and texting most of the day.
So if he valued the relationship, he could do more than crumbs. That really stung to find that out.
Hi Marcia,
„But you’re really not going to know unless you are privy to those other relationships and see them interact with those people.
I now go by the motto: If they wanted to, they would.“
Recently I had the opportunity again to see XLO and his SO, and also have seen their family interaction with kid a lot of time. That‘s why I know he interacts with them on the same level of warmth, showing emotions (quite restricted) etc.
He gave me all he could give, is the answer.
I watched them two weeks ago and thought how little I envy their emotional life. They care for each other, they do all there is to do, they are the most important people for each other, there’s no doubt of their loyalty. But yet! I really don’t want to be a part of this family, it feels emotionally stunted, reigned by rules and obligation. So grey somehow.
I always blamed XLO for this, but now that I had the opportunity to watch them again, I‘d say his SO might be more responsible for this atmosphere than I thought- at least half, if not more.
All this palaver about XLO is actually just to show that it’s either best to go your way and just assume that they don’t care enough for you to give more, or to observe them and realize there’s nothing more to give and that that’s not enough for you.
Both means goodbye to limerence in the end…
Norma,
since he seems to act only in the way the benefits himself, you should be selfish too in this friendship and just take what benefits you, enjoy the bit of color he adds, let him invite you to Starbucks, and don’t care too much about whatever thinks of you, what you mean to him etc. If it’s possible. I mean he will leave in foreseeable future, maybe just enjoy what he‘s got and then let go when he leaves?
I have no idea if this is the best way to deal with it. Just a thought.
To Marcia:
Point taken about the crumbs and how people act differently around different people. I am not close enough to LO to have first-hand knowledge of how he acts around other friends.
I do feel he doesn’t value the relationship much.
When he thought he was moving away, a year ago, he said something to me that I found shocking. I don’t think he realized how it sounded. He was over the moon, gushing about a house he had put money down on the opposite side of the country. I was disheartened to see how much enthusiasm he had for this. I could tell he had zero regret about leaving me and our lovely town behind.
He said, “I won’t forget you!” and I am sure he thought it was a compliment. As you know, the deal blew up in his face, so he’s still here. He will move eventually, though.
He just doesn’t have the same enthusiasm for me as he has for upholstery fabric.
To Mila:
I am trying to follow your advice and just enjoy the lovely little bits of color that LO provides.
It’s easier said than done, but I am making progress.
Miss Mila,
“He gave me all he could give, is the answer.”
Yeah, minus the commitment, which is — sorry to be blunt — huge.
His relationship with his SO may not be great, but he was able to commit — socially, physically, emotionally, financially. That is something.
In terms of the family member I mentioned … I’m not saying his relationship with the girlfriend is that great. I think he’s pretty emotionally limited, too. But whatever he does have to give, it goes to her. And that’s a choice. That’s what stings.
“I really don’t want to be a part of this family, it feels emotionally stunted, reigned by rules and obligation. So grey somehow.”
I know what you mean. There’s no warmth and joy.
“All this palaver about XLO is actually just to show that it’s either best to go your way and just assume that they don’t care enough for you to give more, or to observe them and realize there’s nothing more to give and that that’s not enough for you.”
I mean, either theory makes one come to the same conclusion — that it’s not enough. Do you ever stop to wonder if there are people thinking the same thing about you? “If only Marcia was willing to give me more.” I have a hard time imagining it. If so, it’s probably creepers. 🙂
Miss ND:
” I am not close enough to LO to have first-hand knowledge of how he acts around other friends.”
The family member I mentioned … this was a rare care where I knew how he was with other family members and I got to witness how he was with a couple of his friends. And then his GF directly told me how much he communicates with her. But I’d point out the same thing with your LO that I did with Mila’s LO … he is able to take care of his mother. He feels a responsibility for her. And he did notice when the brother didn’t do what he thought the brother should on Mother’s Day. Because those are relationships he’s focusing on.
“He said, “I won’t forget you!” and I am sure he thought it was a compliment. ”
I mean … he’s a friend, and friendships change as peoples’ lives go off in different directions. Or sometimes the friendship fades out. There’s no big argument, but things just fade out.
Norma,
Reading these posts, if he didn’t think anything of you, he wouldn’t want to meet you at Starbucks etc. Don’t doubt that side. He obviously thinks you’re worth spending time with, in his current circumstances.
But like Mila said, he has limitations. If you could just lower your expectations (a very tough job with limerence), and expect nothing more than the crumbs he has consistently given, that would be best.
Mila,
Speaking personally, we all try to show our shiniest side to our LOs. Only our SOs see the full picture of us – the core of the apple as opposed to just the shiny outside. Maybe you observed a bit of that when you saw him with his SO?
LO and I have spent so much time with each other these past few years that we can’t help but see more of the interior of the apple. (You were the person on LwL who helped me with this side the most). It hasn’t quite worked the same for me as for you. For me, it increasingly lets air out of my LE – with that more realistic 360 degree view of LO, it shows me clearly that SO is the preferable option, but I do still accept LO as someone I want around me at work and as
my friend. You question the friend bit with your xLO. But it isn’t a fair comparison because our (x)LOs are very different in their social adeptness. We’ve been dealt different hands and can only play the cards we have.
Hi Marcia,
„Yeah, minus the commitment, which is — sorry to be blunt — huge“
Well, he does commit in his way, as a friend. He doesn’t give up texting and visiting although it’s all his initiative now and I’m not very encouraging. I truly think he gives all he can give to a friend. When I was limerent, I wanted much more, to be the special one etc, something, as you say, he should only give to his SO –
but even now that I’m not limerent, I have to say that what he gives and commits, it’s not enough for me for a close friendship. For a loose one, ok. I think he would described ours as a close friendship, while for me it’s a very superficial loose one now. Which is ok for me.
„Do you ever stop to wonder if there are people thinking the same thing about you?“
Very interesting question!
I guess I think too little of this possibility, that I might be considered as flaky or not committing enough. I wondered this about a friend who was limerent for me ten years ago – I’m pretty sure he expected more commitment etc from me from time to time. But then, he was limerent.
I tend to think of myself as quite loyal and committing as a friend- but maybe I’m not and who knows what other people’s perspectives of me are!
Hi LaR,
„Maybe you observed a bit of that when you saw him with his SO“
Yes, although he‘s someone who is basically the same all the time- he doesn’t wear masks or has many different sides to show. But it’s true that one can see the downside of his loyal but somewhat expressionless character better when he‘s with SO or family.
I still like him and would like to keep the loose connection we‘ve got now. I just don’t know how it will play out in the future since we’ll meet rarely and I’m not keen on texting much now, and last encounter was quite joyless for me (which was also due to his SO‘s behavior, but still the overall experience was dull). In the end one tends to keep friendship where there‘s joy from time to time. I‘ll just see how it pans out.
Would you say, you are still progressing, or that you are completely in a safe zone? Would you still describe it as a friendship now or has it cooled very much? Just curious! I hope you are well and your family issues are not too overwhelming.
Sorry guys, I couldn’t help cut in with a sigh:
If an available, mature/secure LO happens to come here by chance and hears those chats about him/her, s/he would probably run to the Mars, imo.
Have we ever truly cared about what LO, as a fleshy human being — NOT a walking, dashing drug, would want from interactions with us? While in a LE, acute or dialed down, what could we offer LO? A gratifying friendship/relationship has to be an equally give-n-take two-way traffic.
Again, limerence is NOT Real Love that everyone NEEDS and desires no matter at what stage of life!
Meanwhile, could we be more appreciative for what we’ve already got in our hands? Think life as a whole, we have survived so many detours, downs and lost, but we are still standing here at this moment, this hour, and this day!
Heaven or Hell, is all what we make in our own mind —
https://youtu.be/ilR2iJgH6VA?si=acLGMeeN1McTYswq
I’m a huge fan of BTS DANCE (much more than their songs) that instantly wakes and spins the 🩰 born with me —
https://youtu.be/CVP5VLfrHyo?si=BaLBKow2tLQSnfow
Mila,
“Well, he does commit in his way, as a friend. ”
I don’t know what you mean by commitment. (When I write this, I’m not trying to flippant or sarcastic.) Commitment to me means a sense of emotional responsibility and emotional dependence. Like what Norma was saying about her LO. Someone who knows you well enough to know how difficult an upcoming day will be, for example, and remembers, reaches out to check on you (or maybe plans something to do) and then lets you lean on them a little emotionally. This, to me, would be an example of what a close friendship would be like.
Someone reaching out by text every now and then (I don’t have a set timeframe for how often, could be once a week, could be every six months) to say hi and/or wanting to get together for, say, lunch … that’s not, to me, a commitment. That’s two people who enjoy each others’ company. Now, they may share some personal stuff when they do get together … but to me this is a totally different kind of friendship than the other one I described. They share, for example, deeper stuff usually after it’s already happened. After they’ve gone through it. They’re not expecting you to hold their hand during the event itself, so to speak. All of my current friendships fall into this second category and, no, I don’t really feel a commitment to them.
That’s what I meant by wanting more … a friend is experiencing the second kind of friendship with you but would like the first.
” I wondered this about a friend who was limerent for me ten years ago – I’m pretty sure he expected more commitment etc from me from time to time. But then, he was limerent.”
That’s different. That’s limerence. You can’t be friends with an LO. 🙂
Hi Marcia,
Don’t forget I’m not a native speaker 😅so I’m not sure if I use the word commit in the right way.
I totally agree with you on your description of a close friend.
“Commitment to me means a sense of emotional responsibility and emotional dependence. Like what Norma was saying about her LO. Someone who knows you well enough to know how difficult an upcoming day will be, for example, and remembers, reaches out to check on you (or maybe plans something to do) and then lets you lean on them a little emotionally. This, to me, would be an example of what a close friendship would be like.”
That’s what a close friendship would be for me too. And that’s not what I get from him. I still think he thinks he is my close friend. Or I do know it, since he actually said so.
He would say that he reaches out when he sends something impersonal like “Have a great event” while I’m already in the midst of it. For him, that’s not impersonal. And to be fair, maybe he himself doesn’t expect more than that. And I’m pretty sure his family doesn’t get more than that, if at all.
I think his way of “committing” is just not what you (or I, if you mean committing like you described) understand by “committing”. He probably doesn’t get cues easily on how people feel or what they need, so he cannot react on them. And he doesn’t seem to want to change that. He’s probably still sincere. His way is just not my way of being a close friend.
“a friend is experiencing the second kind of friendship with you but would like the first”
Have you experienced that?
I think I’ve experienced it, but people tend to get the cue quickly and don’t insist, they feel themselves that there’s no closer friendship to get.
In younger years I also had two stalker-like girl-friends who creeped me out a bit- knowing when I put out my light in the window at night, sitting next to me in the cinema and secretly looking at me instead at the screen etc. I don’t think this particular girl was gay and in love or something, but she seemed to have some sort of obsession.
That’s of course not what you mean, though.
Mila,
“he doesn’t wear masks or has many different sides to show.”
Those are good qualities. Although I get, not enough to base a friendship of the kind you want(ed) on.
Everyone has a different bar for what they want their friendships to be. It only really works, in my view, if two people are reciprocal in what they want – from their friendships in general and from the one with each other. I have friends I can hear from every 6 months and that’s no issue, because that’s all I need and alsp
all I can give them. I have others where if a week passes without texts it feels strange, and like I’d want to instigate contact.
I have one question about what you were saying about thinking your xLO could be one kind of friend, only to discover he was a different (‘lesser’, though I dislike the word in that context) kind. You knew him for a decade before you were limerent – didn’t you get a true feel in that time for what level of friend he could be?
“Would you say, you are still progressing, or that you are completely in a safe zone? Would you still describe it as a friendship now or has it cooled very much?”
Here’s the thing. It seemed to cool to almost ice for 3 or 4 months, but that’s now over a year ago. I really wasn’t happy about that, but I do think it was a necessary evil to shut down the strong part of the LE that was destabilising me.
After that spell we kind of picked back up in many ways from where we were, without addressing in words why the cold spell happened. It’s been pretty consistent for a year now – warm but not close to overheating. She can still say or do the odd thing that really tugs at my heartstrings and reminds me why it got like it did in my head. Or she can do something that irritates me a bit. But they are fleeting moments now, and they pass fast and without intrusive thoughts and withdrawal or rumimation.
I have grown to trust myself to enjoy what’s good about the friendship without inventing narratives (good or bad). And I think the reciprocity is fine – at least as far as her signals go, she’s happy with where we are too, but doesn’t push as hard now and is more respectful of my need for personal space and space with SO.
Here’s something I’ve been wondering (have you ever wondered this about your LE?). Maybe there has been only very little material change – maybe most of the change has been in my head?? All the way up to the top of the LE hill and back down again – in my head, massive changes in how I saw interactions between us through that time. But was this just what my brain *wanted* to see at those different times? Did/does she even see the difference? I am quite a good masker – even tempered and don’t usually don’t act too up or top down, even if I feel it. And I doubled down on how hard I tried to mask when my limerence was strongest. I just wonder if all that ever changed was in my head. (I appreciate you will have no answers, I am just giving voice to my thoughts). Where I ask if you think it was similar in your LE, I mean what you projected to your LO. How much in hindsight would you think he saw a different Mila when you were limerent, to the Mila before and after that time? Or was it just a different feeling inside you?
“I hope you are well and your family issues are not too overwhelming.”
Thank you for asking. I’m feeling well. I enjoy this time of year with the long daylight. Getting away soon too – don’t want to give specifics but it’s an exciting destination.
The family issues ebb and flow but are always there in the background. SO has been having the worst of that this year. Touch wood, she/we might be out of the worst of the latest installment 🤞
Hi LaR,
I just described in my post to Marcia a bit my friendship with XLO, if you don’t mind reading that in answer to your question.
“didn’t you get a true feel in that time for what level of friend he could be?”
I think it’s also because he really seems more emotionally restricted than other people (neurodivergence, possibly), but it’s hard to know how much he could provide when you really need it before you need it.
Still, our mutual friend told me “we all knew that he is like that!” So I must have deluded myself a bit.
He is just such a reliable presence, not at all flaky, a steadfast presence, never opting out or seeming to talk behind your back, always there and it’s a sure thing that I always occupy the same important place in his life. It’s easy to believe that such a person would of course be there for you with understanding and warm support when you feel really low, and not, like it’s with him, I realized, not even recognizing the need to support and rally.
I’m very admiring about your ongoing friendship with your LO, because you seem to have managed your expectations and resentments much better than me!
Sounds like there are vacations coming up?
I wish you a wonderful time!!
Mila,
Yes, vacations not too far away now 🌞
I get all you say about how he is loyal, and I get why you like that. I might be oversimplifying here, but you’re saying that the bit where you thought he could be a kind of ‘friend in need/in hard times’ by offering emotional support was kind of filled in by your hopes and wishes, more than by him supplying concrete evidence of being able to offer that?
I read your reply to Marcia too. But what do you think in relation to my question – do you think he saw you acting different at the height of limerence, or were you outwardly pretty consistent? As it sounds like you too are a masker of emotions. I’m wondering how much was out there for him to perceive.
Thanks for what you said about me and LO. I think once I could peel back the layers of the ‘Object’ part of LO (see my post I just sent CatCyclist), I could see the same person behind it that I saw before the LE – and that person and I do like each other as friends. The trouble came through what I added on. I could always vaguely sense this when I said I hoped to be friends with her after it.
The trick is that we’re better to stick with the lighter side of the friendship. Not to talk too deep … because there lie (still) slippery slopes. She *can* be that kind of deeper friend to me, but I can’t let her be, and that’s because I already have SO in my life for that – to be my ‘go to person’. Plus, I can’t give back to LO at that level of being ‘her person’ – and she more naturally needs a ‘person’, being on her own. This all got horribly tangled for a time, and untangling it has also taken time. But it seems to be getting there.
Really resonating with this. My LO is similar to yours, Cloud, and yesterday she told me that some things I’ve been disclosing to her have been making her feel uncomfortable. I feel utterly CRUSHED. Not just for her sake, but also because I’m realising how often I’ve behaved this way towards others in the past.
After reading the article and these comments, I feel like the right approach with my LO (who I can’t cut off) is to keep conversation work-related or light and silly. Away from the personal.
RA,
Hmm, among our heated, circulatory discussions sits here a quiet “Resigned Albatross”, can I chirp a bit with you? (I’m an extinguished bird, too, but masked by ❄️ )
“she told me that some things I’ve been disclosing to her have been making her feel uncomfortable. “
Do you think it’s the content or intensity or scope of your disclosing that made her feel uncomfortable? In general LO appears wearing a shinny halo in their head, but poorly masked limerents can display a longing aura, too, which I think most LOs can detect.
“ because I’m realising how often I’ve behaved this way towards others in the past.”
Were others in the past also your LOs or close friends? How did they react to your subconscious behaviors? Do you know possible reasons behind your disclosing “style”? Did/do you have some buried/unresolved stuff inside your chest, yearning to jump out unto an open ear/mind LO?
If you can manage a good mask, I think sincere, naturally flowing conversations (— carefree from any wished/aimed outcome), “light or silly” or meaning-centered topics, would be gratifying for you, or both if she also likes you as a colleague-friend.
You can’t “cut off” from your LO, does that mean either you or both are unavailable for a possible relationship?
Do you still feel “crushed”? Do you want to share with us your unexpressed “things”?
I hope you are feeling better.
Yes, I imagine the discussion will be much cooler with you, ❄️.
Perhaps you’re onto something with the masking. I certainly masked well at the beginning (she was surprised to hear I had feelings for her), but without even realising I allowed the mask and the boundaries I’d set myself to slip as we became closer and as she showed greater vulnerability towards me.
The others I believe I’ve made uncomfortable are a mixture of friends and LOs. I identify with the ‘yearning’, the needing to get stuff off my chest – often small things I felt insecure about. It could have been the intensity of that need that pushed them away (they no longer talk to me).
I’m feeling much better than before, thank you. Of course, I’ll still have a way to go for as long as I have feelings for her.
RA,
“Yes, I imagine the discussion will be much cooler with you, ❄️.”
A discussion with anyone, aside from one’s LO, would be cooler, right? 😀 I have a ❄️ mask, so hopefully even cooler in this summer time.
“Perhaps you’re onto something with the masking.”
If an extinguished 🐦🔥 doesn’t soar in a cool/cold mask, she might accidentally burn other creatures (except one kind — her mythologically destined mate, 🐉 ).
“I certainly masked well at the beginning (she was surprised to hear I had feelings for her), “
You must be a genius in masking yourself, while she’s either too engaged/focused in her own living/affairs/troubles, or she was not sensitive enough to sense/detect your (or others’) feelings for her. (I was quite insensitive when much younger and learned about others’ feelings/crush for me even decades later 😳 ).
“but without even realising I allowed the mask and the boundaries I’d set myself to slip as we became closer and as she showed greater vulnerability towards me.”
How closer were you? As colleague-friends or something more? Or you’re saying you simply felt closer when she showed greater vulnerability towards you, even without you showing her your vulnerability?
If your mask and boundaries gradually slipped, has she known/guessed your LE for her? If she felt comfortable enough to show her vulnerability towards you, why she’d feel “uncomfortable” towards your “disclosing”, which thus made you feel “crushed”?
Do you think that she expected/wanted you only to be a good 👂 to her (selfish or needy), but nothing more? Are you available (obvious willing in your LE temperature) to be something more to her? In what psychological /mental /emotional ways you can’t cut off with her? Have you dug enough “whys”?
“The others I believe I’ve made uncomfortable are a mixture of friends and LOs. I identify with the ‘yearning’, the needing to get stuff off my chest – often small things I felt insecure about. “
It’s a human nature that we (regardless age, gender, or race) all wish/want to have confidant/close friends/LOs/SO, to express our profound “yearning”, small or big. Did you feel more secure after you disclosed your yearning in the past and now? Do you feel more secure in dealing with your current LO?
“It could have been the intensity of that need that pushed them away (they no longer talk to me).”
Poor you! Perhaps they didn’t understand your needs, or felt unable to help you out, or to contain the intense “yearning”? Did the intensity possibly come across as desperation? or over emotional/mental-dependence/clinginess?
“I’m feeling much better than before, thank you. Of course, I’ll still have a way to go for as long as I have feelings for her.”
Glad that you’re feeing much better now. “A way to go”, where? What’s your eventual goal in dealing with your LO, since you can’t “cut off” with her now? Have you worked with professional therapists ? (Not sure if you have SO to deeply share stuff with.)
A lot of lwlers find helpful by writing stuff down here, as long as not repeat same stuff endlessly (more than 3~4 times), which would fuel unwanted LE fire/ember more.
Please feel free, safe to keep expressing and discussing here. 🙂
Miss Mila,
“Don’t forget I’m not a native speaker 😅so I’m not sure if I use the word commit in the right way.”
Sorry. Forgot. 🙂
“That’s what a close friendship would be for me too. And that’s not what I get from him. I still think he thinks he is my close friend. ”
I mean, that’s the issue, isn’t it? There is no one definition for what a close friend is.
“He would say that he reaches out when he sends something impersonal like “Have a great event” while I’m already in the midst of it. For him, that’s not impersonal. ”
Yeah, I have a male friend like that. His idea of reaching out is texting me a picture he took. With nothing else in the text but “Have a good day.” I’m kind of baffled why this kind of communication would be in any way meaningful to him. It would be different if we had other communication that involved actual conversation about our lives. But if we do, it’s a sentence or two, at most.
“And to be fair, maybe he himself doesn’t expect more than that. ”
Yes, but that’s the question du jour! Why is that enough? I mean, for your LO. For my friend. It’s so … anemic.
“And I’m pretty sure his family doesn’t get more than that, if at all.”
Well, they do. He lives with them, contributes financially, would take them to the hospital if they were sick, etc. There’s a “caring” element. So they are getting more. Now, he might not be that emotionally engaged/present. But they are getting more.
[“a friend is experiencing the second kind of friendship with you but would like the first”]
“Have you experienced that?”
Yes, but it always eventually morphs into the other kind of friendship.
It’s wonderful while it lasts, though. At the height of my last big LE, I had a friend I could call (I could just pick up the phone and they’d actually answer!) and say, “You won’t believe what he did.” And they knew right away who “he” was. And the entire backstory of what had already happened with my LO (this person had actually met him very briefly — yes, I arranged that 🙂 ) and they knew my entire romantic history to give further context. There’s nothing quite like being known like that.
“I think I’ve experienced it, but people tend to get the cue quickly and don’t insist, they feel themselves that there’s no closer friendship to get.”
You’re saying you give the cue you don’t want it to be closer?
So I have to ask, if I’m interpreting your post correctly … was it only your LO you wanted a closer friendship with and no other friends? If so, it was the limerence that was the motivation.
I can tell with new friends when I’ve gotten as far as I’m going to get. It sometimes makes it hard for me to continue to show interest in the friendship. There’s not enough there. Unless they’re really fun. Because fun is such a hard thing to find in middle age.
“In younger years I also had two stalker-like girl-friends who creeped me out a bit- knowing when I put out my light in the window at night, sitting next to me in the cinema and secretly looking at me instead at the screen etc. I don’t think this particular girl was gay and in love or something, but she seemed to have some sort of obsession.”
Yeah, that’s super creepy.
I was joking when I said “creepers.” And I was really talking about limerence, not friendship. As in: Why of all men on the planet is this guy so into me? Am I being punished? 🙂
Hi Marcia,
„I’m kind of baffled why this kind of communication would be in any way meaningful to him. It would be different if we had other communication that involved actual conversation about our lives“
That about sums it up regarding my XLO‘s communication style!
Also:
„It’s so … anemic.“
sums up my feelings when I observed him and his SO two weeks ago in my living room. No, thanks, to this kind of family life on an emotional level.
„You’re saying you give the cue you don’t want it to be closer?
So I have to ask, if I’m interpreting your post correctly … was it only your LO you wanted a closer friendship with and no other friends? If so, it was the limerence that was the motivation.“
I think I might have misunderstood your question, I thought you ask if it had happened to me that someone wanted to be my close friend while I didn’t want to.
I would love to have this kind of friendship, but it’s rare to find, and I even don’t know if I myself am capable to keep it, since my need for privacy and be left in peace sometimes gets in the way of this kind of emotional connection.
I‘d say I have a couple of friends who are not very far off, but still not quite there as „my“ go-to friend, so to say. I don’t know. The only one who really fits that description might be my SO.
I think with my XLO it was certainly sheer limerence, but this limerence grew out of the belief that I had found this kind of friend. While sorting out the limerence I discovered that he cannot even be a close friend in my meaning of the word. Like, a double loss- I though I was limerent for a close friend, but not only didn’t I get my limerent desires fulfilled, he was in the end not even a close friend. Well, he‘s still a friend, and I do appreciate that to some extent.
Sorry, I cannot find the post where you said „creepers“! I really worry about my brain sometimes these days. Getting old isn’t fun!
Also, Marcia,
what happened to the friend you described you had during your big LE?
Did she/he move away or did you drift apart for other reasons?
I’m curious because friendship is an interesting subject for me.
Miss Mila,
“That about sums it up regarding my XLO‘s communication style!”
I don’t understand how you thought he was going to be a close friend if this is how he communicated. You knew him before you became limerent, right?
“I would love to have this kind of friendship, but it’s rare to find, and I even don’t know if I myself am capable to keep it, since my need for privacy and be left in peace sometimes gets in the way of this kind of emotional connection.”
Does your need for privacy and peace get in the way with your SO?
“The only one who really fits that description might be my SO.”
But don’t you think there are things you can’t tell an SO? Part of yourself you can’t share that you can with a friend? Off the top of my head … I’m thinking of a deep dive into your romantic history, your sexual history, the hottest sex you’ve had, etc. I know some couples do share that kind of information, but I always wondered how honest they could be with each other. Are you really going to be honest about the hottest sex you’ve had or the person you were most in love with if it isn’t your SO? I’ve never wanted to hear a romantic partner’s sexual history. Because now I have images in my head. Or there are things they’ve done that would make me wonder how on earth I was going to compete.
“Well, he‘s still a friend, and I do appreciate that to some extent.”
But doesn’t that kind of irk you a little? Why should he get what he wants from you when you don’t get want you want from him? I’m not even talking about limerence but a closer friendship. I know that sounds petty, but haven’t you ever thought about either pulling way, way back (taking a week to respond to texts, for example) or walking?
“Sorry, I cannot find the post where you said „creepers“! ”
I made reference to the fact that, if they were people who wanted more from me, they were probably creepers. But “creepers” really refers more to someone who wants a sexual/romantic relationship. Not a friendship. I mentioned it a couple of posts ago. I think I did. 🙂
“what happened to the friend you described you had during your big LE? Did she/he move away or did you drift apart for other reasons?”
For that kind of friendship to develop (and you’re right, it’s very rare, particularly in adulthood) … a bunch of factors have to line up. Kind of like limerence. You both have to want that kind of connection, you both have to have space in your lives to develop it (it takes spending a lot of time together). And I think you’re bonding over something. A phase of life or some kind of commonality. But that level of closeness isn’t sustainable. Like limerence. 🙂
I didn’t understand it at the time (because I didn’t know what limerence was), but I think we were both having an LE. This person was in an unhappy LTR but limerent for someone else (or close to limerent). We spent a lot of time talking about our LOs. (It wasn’t the only thing we discussed by any means but it was a big topic.) They eventually left their partner (not specifically for their LO) … but nothing much happened with their LO (they were good friends but it didn’t materialize into more). And then their energy shifted to finding another partner. The friendship slowly faded.
I think that’s pretty common. One person goes through a big life event and the friendship is affected. Or one person (or both) changes and the friend liked the previous version of the person more.
Mila,
To answer your question to someone else a while ago: systematically, HRT works beautifully for me, in every way my body needs and my vanity wishes….
With regular PT workouts, dance, and the enjoyable work, I’d say that my energy level is at my 40s (I had mild depression back then), I’m very content. 🙂
Hi Miss Marcia
(I realized only now that you call me Miss Mila- very charmed)
“I don’t understand how you thought he was going to be a close friend if this is how he communicated. You knew him before you became limerent, right?”
That’s also what LaR was asking.
I think my definition of a close friend might be a bit different, or better said, my needs are a bit different. I’m quite a private person and solve much of my internal stuff for myself, as opposed to one of my friends who needs to discuss everything with every friend (just two different ways to cope with things). So I don’t need a close friend to really live in each other’s pockets. But I want a friend who, if necessary, rallies round and is there with emotional support and reliability. I don’t need constant support or frequent deep talks- what I need is to know, there will be instant help in form of empathetic reaction and being there for me in an emergency. Which doesn’t occur very often, fortunately, since as I said, I solve things for myself very often.
We had in the ten years a pleasant friendship on a base of working well together, regular family get-togethers, spending time also one on one, talking not deep talks but still about almost everything. He was a constant in my life, and I believed that he was one of the people who would rally round if necessary, provide warmth and supporting words. He cannot provide that, I found, not in a way I would feel supported.
Of course everything got mingled with limerence. I guess without limerence, I still would have found out at some point later that he cannot provide deep talks and emotional support, and I would have been disappointed, but moved on and accepted it.
Like it is, all got mixed up in a stupid mess, and this
“But doesn’t that kind of irk you a little? Why should he get what he wants from you when you don’t get want you want from him? I’m not even talking about limerence but a closer friendship. I know that sounds petty, but haven’t you ever thought about either pulling way, way back (taking a week to respond to texts, for example) or walking?”
Yeah, I thought about it very much, and I did cool everything off quite a lot. I just think got him in his restricted ways, I’m still his close friend, he was always like this and it’s not fair to punish him for not being what I expected him to be.
We can still be friends on a loose level, I guess. But I don’t provide any more any of the stuff I provided in the past and never got from him, I keep everything on a quite superficial and non-committal level, which feels best to me at the moment.
“But don’t you think there are things you can’t tell an SO? Part of yourself you can’t share that you can with a friend?”
Yes there are, but I realize that I don’t tell them to anybody. I was never one to discuss sex with my friends. Maybe I’m prissy?(right word?) It just feels very private to me.
What you describe with your friend- so you think, close friendship is only possible for a certain limited time? Maybe I got that wrong.
But I think it’s actually beautiful that sometimes people appear in our life for a limited period just to help as along or we help them or both, and then we might drift apart again. It’s why people believe in angels, maybe. I could also name a few persons like that in my life, sometimes virtual strangers who said the right thing at the right time. I just mean, maybe it’s ok that they drift away after an intense time of sharing.
I don’t know. Everyone needs a different kind of friendship, I suppose. And not every friend is meant to be that for the rest of our lives, but still was a true friend.
Snow,
I’m very glad to hear that!
I get so many different reports from women. For some HRT is salvation, some struggle etc.
In any case, I think you are feeling as good as you do also for a big part because you take good care of moving and being physically healthy.
🔥 🍑 🍷 Mila,
One more thing to add for using HRT, a very healthy, low risky heart (against potential heart attack/diseases) is required. Thanks to my Granny’s genes and constantly healthy diet, my risk rate is 2~3%, like some patients of my cardiologist in their 30s.
For me, with it, a “paradise”; without it, all my Qi/Chi movements together could hardly pull me out of bed, “paralyzed” by the textbook symptoms… foggy head and depression as the worst. Plus, I don’t want to be a “neutral” person for the rest of my life. 😀
Sorry for nagging again here: TREASURE your XLO for what/who he really is, instead of what you wish/expect him to be! His personality/quality as you repeatedly described to us, is rare “gold” in today’s flashy, fleeting world. Otherwise, you’d never get over with your “resentment” or unsettled mind for your friendship of over 12~13 years. That would be sad, I’d seriously shred some tears for you.
Like in a D10+ vs. D7~9 (degree) LE, if you can/wish to give d10 friendship, but he is only ABLE to reciprocate in d7~9 ( and he did give you ALL he could constantly), are you going to take it or keep feeling disappointed? I know some limerents want a d10 reciprocation and might consider d7~8 one as unrequited LE. But here we are talking about close friendship, which would always be less than crush/LE/love, are we that demanding of friendship like we might be in the illogical, overly self-centered or delirious LE?
I know LE was/is maddening for all of us limrents here, but you have disposition and strong ability to turn your friendship/LE to a positive experience, whether you keep the friendship as it is or move on with profound inner peace.
By the way, I’m very similar to you in terms of dealing with close friendship (BP/SO Excluded!) In the past when I got into some stressful situations, I never found an equally able mind/heart beating at the same wavelength as mine (I’m very complicated), besides their kind but inadequate/superficial support. And if they tried to get into my “pocket” or mentally lean on me too much, I’d lose my admiration or respect for them, even if I was making efforts to “help” out a little.
That’s why after discovering and self- training in Stoicism, I just run to its Alive souls to help get myself out of all stresseful mental/emotional states, which has been working effectively — another reason why I’ve been feeling good and even “high” occasionally, without taking a sip of alcohol for weeks/months.
While good dance music is a powerful stimulus for my body and mind, I practice all PT works in Total silence, so I could focus on my muscles’ movements and sensations. 😊
Have a lovely Sunday!
„ TREASURE your XLO for what/who he really is, instead of what you
wish/expect him to be!“
„ But here we are talking about close friendship, which would always be less than crush/LE/love, are we that demanding of friendship like we might be in the illogical, overly self-centered or delirious LE?“
This is exactly at the core of all my ups and downs and back and forths… I really try to treasure what‘s there, but it was/is hard to see through limerent and post-limerent fog what actually is really there to treasure.
Since you all know him only through my description, it’s also hard for you to see.
Most of my struggle in the last phase was that I honestly would like to treasure him, but I don’t quite manage it to get to the right mindset, and at some point I thought maybe it’s best to simply give up, let go and just say, I‘m not capable of appreciating this friendship in the right way any more, so be it, I give up.
I mean, I‘m still there. I invite him over when he‘s in the area, I visit him when I‘m in his. I sent him a birthday present etc. I just don‘t seem to be able to give more than that, I don’t want to text, and he wouldn’t be a person I would turn to when I feel bad or sad, because I know he would most probably not give me solace or warmth in a way that would reach me. But he could still turn to me any time he feels bad and I would try my best to support him, because I really like him. I just know that I can’t expect the same from him, not in a way that counts for me.
I‘m actually not sure about my heart because I’ve never been to a cardiologist, only did ECG with a GP.
When I go to the gym (quite regularly now!), everyone else is wearing headphones, listening to music or podcasts, I‘m almost the only one who doesn’t. I like to work out without that, I can focus better on my body while strength training, also thoughts begin to flow while doing cardio- at which other time can one just let thoughts come and go!
Miss Mila,
You can call me miss all day! Makes me feel young. 🙂
“So I don’t need a close friend to really live in each other’s pockets. But I want a friend who, if necessary, rallies round and is there with emotional support and reliability. I don’t need constant support or frequent deep talks- what I need is to know, there will be instant help in form of empathetic reaction and being there for me in an emergency. Which doesn’t occur very often, fortunately, since as I said, I solve things for myself very often.”
I think I know what you’re talking about. Most of the friendships I have now have some variation of this. If they’re going through something tough, we’ll talk about it. I don’t know if it would be “in an emergency.” Right at the time of the emergency. It would probably be whenever we got together next. You know … for our middle-aged women’s socialization. The two-hour meal. Now, with this I am being sarcastic because women’s socialization at this age can be a bit dull.
“He was a constant in my life”
Well, someone being in your life as a regular presence is not a small thing.
“and I believed that he was one of the people who would rally round if necessary, provide warmth and supporting words.”
But in 10 years’ time, before the LE, you had never needed his support? That seems kind of odd to me. 🙂
“he was always like this and it’s not fair to punish him for not being what I expected him to be.”
Well, that’s true.
The reasons now I would end a friendship: flakiness/cancelling (that gets old really fast); not ever reaching out and/or barely responding when I do; or I discover something about them I just really don’t like. That’s more with new friends but it can happen with older ones. I had one new friend, a few years ago, who was always asking me to do things for him. I started to feel like as if he was always trying to get something out of me.
“But I don’t provide any more any of the stuff I provided in the past and never got from him”
What were you providing before that you aren’t now? More communication? That can be deceiving because you can have a lot of communication with someone but that doesn’t mean you have a deep connection. Because the communication can be about superficial stuff.
” I was never one to discuss sex with my friends. Maybe I’m prissy?(right word?) It just feels very private to me.”
I’m talking about discussing it a limited number of people. I don’t have a BFF anymore but even with the friendships I have now, we talk about sex.
“What you describe with your friend- so you think, close friendship is only possible for a certain limited time? ”
Yes, friendship for a season. They’ve done studies. They asked participants who their close friends are and then they asked them 7 years later. And I think it was 50 (or maybe even up to 70) percent of those close friends were no longer close.
Now, they still may have been friends. But not as close. Life changes affect friendship, and people only have so much emotional bandwith and energy and time and friendship is not a primary relationship, like a family or romantic one, with a sense of obligation or official commitment. So when big life changes happens — someone has a baby, for example — peoples’ priorities change.
That’s why I disagree with the argument that a limerent has to maintain an already established friendship if they become limerent for their friend. Because .. and I read this somewhere … friendship is like the tide. It comes in and then goes out, over time. And sometimes, yes, it “goes out” completely.
“But I think it’s actually beautiful that sometimes people appear in our life for a limited period just to help as along or we help them or both, and then we might drift apart again. ”
It was very painful when that BFF faded out. I don’t know that I’ll ever again have another friendship like that. It’s been a number of years since I have. Maybe I’m subconsciously not looking for it anymore because I’ve accepted adult friendship’s limitations. If you asked me ten years ago, my answers would have been much different.
Miss Marcia,
„But in 10 years’ time, before the LE, you had never needed his support?“
Good question. I think our friendship developed over the years. I’d better say, we worked together for ten years. We got along well from the start but the level of established contact developed in the run of years. Still, I guess, I really didn’t have the need for said support? I had two stressful LEs, but I never discussed them with anyone (apart from LwL)- I felt if I didn’t tell SO, I couldn’t tell it to anyone else, it would be even more of a betrayal.
Still, I think limerence was mixed up in the development of the idea of him as a special friend.
And still I think I’m not wrong to say that he is special in not providing support of the most usual kind.
And I think you are right to say that this notion of „I have to keep this friendship no matter which cost“ issued forth by a limerent is a limerent concept.
„What were you providing before that you aren’t now?“
I provided validation. Like, professional validation , or, more seldom, on a personal level.
When he doubted himself professionally, I reassured him, when he did something well, I told him so, I gave professional compliments etc., I encouraged him before an important event and told him specifically what he’s good at. He doubts himself a lot professionally although he is very good, and he likes this kind of validation very much. I also told him when I thought he looked in new clothes etc.
He loves that. But he almost never gives something back, as I said, the highest he can get is „Have a great event“ or something like that. I can count exactly two times he said something professionally validating about me. I know that he appreciates me and likes my work. But he never says it. When I told him that, he was like „well, but you know that I like our work“as in „why do I have to say it“, but then he laps up and even fishes for the validating things I say.
Also, he loved it when I said I miss him or that I’m looking forward to see him etc. He never said that.
Now, I guess he tries to do better and sometimes even writes before meeting that he is looking forward to seeing me. But me, petulant child, I never say/write that any more. I just don’t have it in me any more. Energy spent, resources gone, or I‘m too petulant. I‘m just not willing. Only once since the limerence I said something validating, but only because I really felt it spontaneously.
„It was very painful when that BFF faded out. I don’t know that I’ll ever again have another friendship like that. It’s been a number of years since I have. Maybe I’m subconsciously not looking for it anymore because I’ve accepted adult friendship’s limitations. “
I‘m sorry it was painful!
I‘m
not even sure I had a friendship like that, that intense. And I‘m not sure I could maintain it, with my need of privacy etc. It‘s still something one dreams of, and I often think about if I have real friends or if they are just better acquaintances. I mean, I have two friends whom I don’t see often, but when I see them, we can talk for hours about anything and I trust them completely. I trust them more than my day-to-day work friends who still get much more time and talk from me than them. Most of these work friends are younger than me, and two of them would rank me under their closer friends, I‘m sure. They tell me a lot about themselves, while I don’t tell them a lot about myself. It’s just not the same kind of trust I’ve got for my longterm friends I don’t see often.
Maybe it’s because I don’t see them often? I don’t know! Humans are complicated.
Miss Mila,
” I felt if I didn’t tell SO, I couldn’t tell it to anyone else, it would be even more of a betrayal.”
I would think a friend is the one person who you could reveal an LE to. I’ve had friends reveal affairs to me before.
I have changing and mixed feelings about telling an SO. Some days I think it’s a good idea, some days I think it’s a very bad one.
But your family is friends with your LO’s family, right? And you all get together? I have to be honest … if I was your SO … and you didn’t tell me (I don’t know how I’d find out, but let’s say I sensed something or found out some way), I’d feel manipulated. And my first question would be, “Is that why we’re hanging out with them?”
“When I told him that, he was like „well, but you know that I like your work “as in „why do I have to say it“, but then he laps up and even fishes for the validating things I say.”
He sounds selfish. I have to ask: What were you getting out of this friendship (before you became limerent)? Pleasant person to work with? You got along well? Is he really funny or fun?
“Also, he loved it when I said I miss him or that I’m looking forward to see him etc. He never said that.”
It seems to be, even considering his social limitation, pretty self-evident that when someone writes, “Looking forward to seeing you,” you write something similar back. And it’s hardly a deeply emotive sentiment.
“Now, I guess he tries to do better and sometimes even writes before meeting that he is looking forward to seeing me. ”
So you told him you needed him to say it back or be more expressive and he’s been doing it? If so, I’ll give him credit for that. He listened and was willing to adjust his behavior, which is no small thing.
“I‘m not even sure I had a friendship like that, that intense.”
I think that’s my Achilles’ heel. Intensity. Something above the every day.
Right now I have a handful of middle-aged, appropriate, “healthy,” boundaried friendships. For lack of a better description. And like you wrote about the people you consider close friends, when we get together, we share a lot and talk about everything. But I don’t feel attached to them and I don’t feel in any way dependent on them, like I did with my BFF.
“I trust them more than my day-to-day work friends who still get much more time and talk from me than them. Most of these work friends are younger than me, and two of them would rank me under their closer friends, I‘m sure. They tell me a lot about themselves, while I don’t tell them a lot about myself.”
Have you ever done anything with them socially outside of work? If you left the job tomorrow, would you keep in touch? That’s your tell if they’re just work friendships. Have they never asked you anything? Because I would notice if I was the only one revealing things (or revealing much more). It’s a weird feeling, like standing in front of someone with no clothes on but they’re totally dressed.
Correction: Marcia to Mila
Miss Marcia,
„But your family is friends with your LO’s family, right? And you all get together? I have to be honest … if I was your SO … and you didn’t tell me (I don’t know how I’d find out, but let’s say I sensed something or found out some way), I’d feel manipulated. And my first question would be, “Is that why we’re hanging out with them?”
Well, we had these regular hang outs for years without limerence. To stop them, I would have had to explain to all of them. It was easier to let them go on. I mean, all of limerence isn’t fair on an SO, but telling them is opening Pandora‘s box, I guess. We limerents tend to think wrongly we can go back to normal with just more effort, at least I thought…
„If so, I’ll give him credit for that. He listened and was willing to adjust his behavior, which is no small thing.“
Yes, maybe. But somehow it‘s too little too late for me. I don’t mean that as punishing him. It just doesn’t have impact on me anymore. And it is literally just that- „I‘m looking forward to seeing you.“ He still got a text from me a couple of months ago about a close family member in intense care hospital unit, read it and answered after 48hours with a text with sorry to hear that and stuff about himself. I know I‘m not entitled to any reaction, and that he meant no harm . Its still too little for my needs from a friend.
„Have you ever done anything with them socially outside of work? If you left the job tomorrow, would you keep in touch? That’s your tell if they’re just work friendships. Have they never asked you anything? Because I would notice if I was the only one revealing things (or revealing much more). “
Yes, I’ve got 4-5 friends I meet outside work for coffee or dinner regularly, one on one, sometimes three , we are all friends. And we would keep in touch if one left, but for how long?
They ask me, and I do tell them about some problems, but never as much as they tell me. Or maybe they don’t tell me all, too, I guess. The connection is very nice and fun, also reliable in many ways, but still feels a bit like a convenience thing that could end as soon as the convenience ends. But it’s still a good thing in my life. We rally round when someone needs help, there is emotional support.
Maybe intensity isn’t a long-living thing? But I get you. Someone one can open up to about anything, who holds one, no matter what one is revealing.
I told Snow already that I think I should stop going over my last LE again. I feel it’s not doing me very much good. I know it’s my fault (forgot to tell Snow! Maybe you read that!) for talking about it again! Also, this is a site about limerence, so it’s stupid to be there and not want to talk about it.
So don’t be offended, please, if I pull back a bit now?
I‘m still there to talk about friendship, dark chocolate or Adam’s parachute pants;)
Miss Mila,
“Yes, I’ve got 4-5 friends I meet outside work for coffee or dinner regularly, one on one, sometimes three , we are all friends. And we would keep in touch if one left, but for how long?”
I had a situation recently similar to that. We all met up but when circumstances changed (sorry if I’m being vague), the friendships lasted just a couple of months after.
They were proximity friends. Then it became … out of sight, out of mind.
“But it’s still a good thing in my life. We rally round when someone needs help, there is emotional support.”
It’s not nothing that you’re all meeting up and getting together.
“Someone one can open up to about anything, who holds one, no matter what one is revealing.”
It’s not just that but they’re in your pocket, to borrow your phase. You’re sort of glued together and there’s a level of dependence there. Probably like the friendships you see on the TV show “Friends.” It was a popular show for a reason. It depicts something that is nice in theory — a group of friends become each others’ family and stick together through all kinds of trials and tribulations — but it’s not realistic. Maybe when they’re all in their early to mid-20s (the age of the characters in the first season). But not once people start pairing up and having kids and getting jobs and promotions and moving away, etc. The show went on for 10 years. So the characters would have been well into their 30s by the end of the show. By then, they would have all gone off in different directions. And then maybe gotten together for a planned reunion once a year, but at least one of the 5 would have cancelled last minute. If not more.
“I told Snow already that I think I should stop going over my last LE again. ”
Ok.
“I‘m still there to talk about friendship, dark chocolate or Adam’s parachute pants;)”
About the last topic … I would literally rather stick needles in my eyes. 🙂
I tried the Hu dark chocolate-hazelnut (as opposed to the dark chocolate-cashew butter). Didn’t like it as much as the cashew butter. Hu is also making chocolate-covered cashews. Pretty good.
Hi Miss Marcia,
I love „Friends“! Maybe also because such a gang of friends seemed so much fun. I agree with it being not realistic, but actually four out of six ended up as couples. (I rooted for Phoebe and Joey too, or better instead of Chandler and Monica, but apparently they thought it would be too cheesy to pair everyone up)..
As I said, I cherish the idea of friends of that intensity, but not sure if I myself could live up to that. It means committing and kind of taking on responsibility for each other. I think I couldn’t really do that in that intensity in addition to my family and parents? Not sure.
I actually checked now where to buy Hu chocolate. But it’s ridiculously expensive here. If the chocolate isn’t, the shipping cost is. And cashew butter is sold out at the only shop with reasonable prizes.
Ok, no parachute pants. But the t shirts with Slogans?
Hi Miss Mila,
“I agree with it being not realistic, but actually four out of six ended up as couples.”
Ah, yes, four of them do end up as couples. I just remember clips of the last scene where they’re all turning in their keys. It’s the end of an era, the end of a phase of life. And they’re moving on.
” (I rooted for Phoebe and Joey too, or better instead of Chandler and Monica, but apparently they thought it would be too cheesy to pair everyone up)..”
I know a lot of fans liked the idea of them being together. Phoebe and Joey. And that the Rachel and Joey pairing came out of nowhere. That it made no sense.
“As I said, I cherish the idea of friends of that intensity, but not sure if I myself could live up to that. It means committing and kind of taking on responsibility for each other. I think I couldn’t really do that in that intensity in addition to my family and parents? Not sure.”
I think that’s a common sentiment. Other relationships take priority. That’s what I was trying to explain to Norma. It’s not wrong to want that from a friend; it’s just probably not realistic. Or I find that if friends do that kind of support/responsibility, it’s for a bit. It’s not consistent. The next thing you’re going through, they’re MIA. I wish it were different. I’ve actually gotten much more out of my close friendships than my family relationships.
“I actually checked now where to buy Hu chocolate. But it’s ridiculously expensive here. ”
Some dark chocolate is so bad. Lindt. I’m just happy I found one I like. Too bad it’s not near you.
“Ok, no parachute pants. But the t shirts with Slogans?”
I forgot about that. We should give out chips! Like in AA. “Ten years limerent free,” for example. Or how about “humor” T-shirts. “I can’t be limerent for you … you actually want to date me. ” 🙂
We can talk about hot men, too. I went to the doctor the other day. Came out of the examining room. Some guy sitting at the desk. Dayumm! I don’t know who he was. I looked up the medical practice’s website. He wasn’t on there so he’s not a doctor, but who cares? Dude can mop the floor for all I care! They should use him on their site as some kind of advertising. 🙂
Hi Miss Marcia
„Some dark chocolate is so bad. Lindt. I’m just happy I found one I like. Too bad it’s not near you.“
Lindt dark chocolate is really bad, I agree! Check out Vivani dark chocolate if it’s available where you live.
Tshirt slogans- I tried to come up with one too, but realized that I cannot do stuff like that in English!
Hot men, very nice topic!
I‘m curious: do you only look with interest at men your age range or can you appreciate a much younger guy? This guy at the doctor‘s, was he your age or younger?
When I was young, men who were my current age looked all the same to me weren’t that interesting , now that’s not the case. But I still appreciate younger men too. I mean there’s a limit to what I can imagine with them, it’s too much like puppy-love at some point, but appreciating beauty or hotness? Always.
Hi Mila,
“Check out Vivani dark chocolate if it’s available where you live.”
I did a quick google check and couldn’t find it near me but maybe I can order it online.
“I‘m curious: do you only look with interest at men your age range or can you appreciate a much younger guy? This guy at the doctor‘s, was he your age or younger?”
I don’t know. It happened very quickly and it just got a quick peek. 🙂 Maybe 35 ? I prefer men around my age but … and I know this sounds hypocritical … the older I get, the harder that is to find. I’m talking about at first sight.
“When I was young, men who were my current age looked all the same to me weren’t that interesting , now that’s not the case.”
So you preferred older guys? When I was young, older men weren’t on my radar screen. I didn’t take them seriously as options. Not always, but for the most part.
” But I still appreciate younger men too. I mean there’s a limit to what I can imagine with them, it’s too much like puppy-love at some point, but appreciating beauty or hotness? Always.”
ITA. With younger men, it’s more of an appreciation. There’s too much of an age difference for anything else — maturity-wise, life experience-wise. They’re in a whole other life phase, another sphere.
And on their end, if they were interested in me at all, I can’t see it being for anything more than something very casual.
Miss Marcia,
„So you preferred older guys? “
No, I didn‘t express myself well, I meant by „current age“ men my age now. So, when I was young, older men from 40 onwards weren’t very interesting or I didn’t pay much attention. Although, maybe not totally true, now that I write it out.
I remember two men who I still deem attractive (and deemed attractive back then in my late twenties)although they are about 20 years older. But it’s the same as with younger men- I appreciate(d) them but couldn’t really imagine anything happening with them and me.
Yeah, I think that „at first sight“ stuff is reserved for younger people, male or female. But I guess we older ones can still score points at round two.
Miss Mila,
“So, when I was young, older men from 40 onwards weren’t very interesting or I didn’t pay much attention.”
Me, too. I’d say even a few years older was too old. When I was in my 20s. I remember meeting a guy when I was … I think 23 or 24. He was in his early 30s. I thought he was really attractive until he opened the conversation with his house and his job. I was young. I had zero interest in that stuff.
“Although, maybe not totally true, now that I write it out.
I remember two men who I still deem attractive (and deemed attractive back then in my late twenties)although they are about 20 years older. ”
Like you, off the top of my head, I can remember a few exceptions. There was one guy I had a real thing for who was much older. I don’t know his exact age but he was probably somewhere in his 40s when I met him and I was in 19 or 20. I have yet to see a man attract women like he did. At the time, that impressed me. It fascinated me. Now I might look at it like … why does this guy have to collect so many women?
“But it’s the same as with younger men- I appreciate(d) them but couldn’t really imagine anything happening with them and me.”
I’d say much more than about a decade younger and they’re too young.
“Yeah, I think that „at first sight“ stuff is reserved for younger people, male or female. But I guess we older ones can still score points at round two.”
What is round two? To be carefully considered for one’s qualities?
Miss Marcia,
„What is round two? To be carefully considered for one’s qualities?“
I mean, round 1 is the first glance, like you had with that guy at the doctor‘s, or passing someone in the street, round 2 is getting to talk to someone or even watching them for a longer period than just a glance, and noticing a smile, a certain energy or self confidence in movement, how the face moves, the voice, and also the click if people get along well while talking etc.
I‘d agree on the decade younger if one of my LOs hadn’t been about 15 years younger. So that’s my personal limit, I guess.
Miss Mila,
“I mean, round 1 is the first glance, like you had with that guy at the doctor‘s, or passing someone in the street, round 2 is getting to talk to someone or even watching them for a longer period than just a glance, and noticing a smile, a certain energy or self confidence in movement, how the face moves, the voice, and also the click if people get along well while talking etc.”
It’s kind of hard to say what I’m still capable of eliciting in the other side. It’s not something I usually verify. I know that the last semi-LO, whatever you want to call him, was immediately interested. As was I. We talked about it later. When we met, we had to interact with each other for work so we had to talk to each other. So I don’t know if that’s a round 1 combined with a round 2. But having the mutual interest verified sure did a number on me. And, yes, he’s younger. Though not as much as the LO you mentioned.
With the guy at the doctor’s office … I don’t know if he even saw me. I was being led out of the examining room, down to the check out, by a medical assistant. Not really a chance to chat someone up, especially because he ‘s working there, so if I had spoken to him, he ‘s kind of required to be nice to me. So it would be difficult to determine if he was interested. And I’m a patient. So that’s crossing some kind of weird boundary. And I had no reason to talk to him, and he was sitting at the desk with a few other people. For me to walk over to the desk and start a conversation … would have been just odd.
There’s definitely a distinction difference between men I’m interested in versus men I’m appreciating. The doctor’s office guy was in the latter category. I’m not sure exactly what it is. It might be in part their age. Or context of where I see them. Or just … something internally that’s motivating me to push things forward a little.
“I‘d agree on the decade younger if one of my LOs hadn’t been about 15 years younger. So that’s my personal limit, I guess.”
I won’t lie: It would always be in the back of my mind that I’d be aging faster than they would. If I was older. With that much of an age difference.
Miss Marcia
„ But having the mutual interest verified sure did a number on me.“
That’s the top Nr.1 trigger for limerence for me. There has to be some kind of real reciprocation, mutual interest, whatever we call it. Without it, attraction fades out sooner or later.
„There’s definitely a distinction difference between men I’m interested in versus men I’m appreciating.“
Same for me! I can see and appreciate hotness, and there’s a playful element to it- that’s something to comment to the girls on etc.
But if someone really hits my trigger, it gets kind of serious for me. I might get tongue-tied or awkward, and I wouldn’t tell anyone about my interest or crush or whatever I should call it- I personally call that one a glimmer. The former one isn’t a glimmer, it’s just someone who‘s generally hot.
„It would always be in the back of my mind that I’d be aging faster than they would. If I was older. With that much of an age difference.“
And it always was at the back of my mind and I’d say also on his. Actually I should probably say, luckily he was that much younger because it ruled out any serious prospect. I already had family and kids, and he wanted family and kids with someone closer to his own age.
Miss Mila,
“That’s the top Nr.1 trigger for limerence for me. There has to be some kind of real reciprocation, mutual interest, whatever we call it. Without it, attraction fades out sooner or later.”
I’m the same way. I have to feel there’s some mutual interest to become limerent. Flirting is fine but some people flirt with everyone. But with the last one, I got written confirmation. So that sent me over the edge.
“But if someone really hits my trigger, it gets kind of serious for me. I might get tongue-tied or awkward, and I wouldn’t tell anyone about my interest or crush or whatever I should call it- I personally call that one a glimmer. The former one isn’t a glimmer, it’s just someone who‘s generally hot.”
I’m exactly the same way. Only I will tell a close friend about someone I have a glimmer for. And I don’t glimmer for every man I’m attracted to. It depends on how strong the attraction is. Sometimes it’s a little flutter and then fades out quickly.
But … yes, if I’m relaxed and totally myself, I’m not attracted. And sometimes being relaxed and yourself can be misread as interest.
“I already had family and kids, and he wanted family and kids with someone closer to his own age.”
Yeah, I would worry about that, too. Younger guys might want kids. I don’t want them and that ship has sailed, anyway.
My problem was HER oversharing. For me it was much more addictive for her to know that she could be heard by me than say anything about myself to her.
🎩 🥃,
In your case, you’re playing a saving “damsel in distress” knight by letting her vent out her stresses from her past, like I did with ET (a Sensor & a “knight”, perhaps?)
Any one-way communication could trigger an addictive LE either in limerent or LO, or both, depending on one’s cultural upbringing and her/his own unloaded psychological baggage.
Oversharing could help a fulfilling, last loving relationship ONLY when both availability sides, with some degree of glimmer, in LE or not, bravely, honestly, and anxiety-freely (let go off any possibly realistic outcome) dialogue with each other, like those two protagonists in the “Before” trilogy (“Before Sunrise”, “Before Sunset”, and “Before Midnight”. It’s such a beautiful trilogy! 💕
I can’t get over rewatching the touching story of the “Before” trilogy made of entirely conversations! —
Two young strangers met on a train, and a mutual glimmer took place – for the man, probably g8~g9; for the girl, g7~g8. Then they decided to take a chance just to wander through Vienna for a day before the man returns to US and her Paris.
Then they aimlessly walked and randomly talked, strolled and overshared their failed romance and other individually meaningful subjects, as if there was no tomorrow, which was true in their reality. But it didn’t stop them from openly and carefreely sharing whatever came into their mind — a true, spontaneous romantic encounter and rendezvous.
They were too poor to afford any place to spend the night so wandered along a river. They bumped into a bohemian poet on a boat, and he offered to write a poem for them on a random word the couple chose. So the girl chose: milkshake. Here it goes —
******
Daydream delusion,
Limousine eyelash.
Oh, Baby, with your pretty face.
Drop a tear in my wine glass.
Look at those big eyes.
See what you mean to me:
Sweet cakes and milkshakes.
I’m a delusion angel.
I’m a fantasy parade.
I want you to know what I think.
Don’t want you to guess anymore.
You have no idea where I came from.
You have no idea where we’re going.
Lodged in life like branches in the river.
Flowing downstream, caught in the current.
I’ll carry you. You’ll carry me.
That’s how it could be.
Don’t you know me?
Don’t you know me by now?”
*****
Surprised by the poem, the couple discussed, pondered over and decided to have a one-night sex on a park grass field. In the sunrise, they parted according to their original plans. They decided No Contact with address or phone numbers, because their life was too far apart geographically.
13 years later, the man published the book about their one-day rendezvous and went to Paris for his book tour. The girl came to his reading and again within limited few hours (he had to fly home), they eagerly chatted, talked and overshared as if there was no tomorrow, which was true again — the man married with a beloved son and a beige-wife, and the girl had a beige-partner — she loved him only when he was in physical distance or she’d feel suffocated (she didn’t understand why).
But their initial glimmer and that one day/night in Vienna and their endless, random but meaningful talks/discussion finally brought them together in the Trilogy 3 with their shared twin girls (he divorced for her). Again they talked, joked, discussed, argued, yelled to each other due to common miscommunications and misunderstandings.
Nonetheless, through their loud, uninhibited, vulnerable talks/complaints/disputes, and poetic, beautiful, romantic role-playing, they are finally glued back together by that invisible, subconscious bond, began weaving in that train and Vienna rendezvous. The ending is so touching.
I guess I’m stressing the open-minded, honest, carefree verbal communications in a potential relationship, no-string attached or committed. It’s the tool, more important even than sex, to truly connect two human beings in body, mind, and soul. Cosmic Twin Flames absolutely don’t make any sense to me — a practicing Stoic. The said communication is equally important in friendship or other relations.
Limerence is definitely NOT Real Love, but an obsession for (sub)conscious reasons (ie. the past traumatic baggage), or an addiction by helpless altered state of the mind or by choice (its high is just irresistible for serial or addicted limerents). It’s unhealthy and sad for limerents (whether LO is unavailable or not).
To Adam:
We all want to be helpful. I agree with Miss Snow about your rescue fantasy.
It doesn’t have to be romantic, though. My best girlfriend has a problem with her partner, and I have spent a good deal of time going over various issues with her in an effort to help. I like to feel needed.
Well let’s hope to God I ain’t doing it again. Cause she’s been absent from work twice now. I guess I’ll find out tonight when I get to work …. Miss Snow worries about my drinking …. that’s not what’s gonna be the end of me I’m sure.
🎩 🥃,
Please allow me to give you a sip of Stoic drink 🍹:
I do care about your drinking that affects your body and mind, but I am NOT worried about it. Your problems are beyond my control. I just nudge you from time to time for your own sake, not mine in any fashion!
It’s not Stoic and futile to worry about anything or anyone beyond one’s control, although I can try my best to help if needed. You drink, you ALONE take whatever consequence waiting ahead of you. 📿🪷
I can only take a good care of my own physical body (PT and walk), mind (write and cook), emotion and spirit (dance to BTS).
I just finished 4 more vignettes for my book, feeling glorious 🎐 …. Time to spin —
https://youtu.be/SmkDPdjCN-M?si=MqeHFgqfqK9aog15
😊
Miss Snow you are the conscious that I cannot apply to myself. Despite your frustration or lack there of. I appreciate your candor. And, as I see it, despite our differences I appreciate our friendship. While I might be able to accommodate your recommendations about my bad habits. I do dearly appreciate your efforts. I don’t know why you waste your time on a lost soul like me. I’ve long dug my own grave. But I will try to solider on in your practiced Stoic ways.
🎩 Adam 🤝,
“Miss Snow you are the conscious that I cannot apply to myself. Despite your frustration or lack there of. “
You mean apply Stoic practice to yourself? Again, I’m not frustrated at all (sorry if it sounds “selfish”), putting out one’s best effort and letting go outcomes is one of major Stoic disciplines. I’m getting better and better at this in all areas of my trivial life. 😊
“I appreciate your candor. And, as I see it, despite our differences I appreciate our friendship. “
Thank you for your friendship, too, and for keeping dialogues with me — a challenge for me to cultivate more patience in me. As you know, I didn’t make enough “saving” efforts with my genetically alcoholic xSO, instated on a divorce and gave up all that I had built with him.
“While I might be able to accommodate your recommendations about my bad habits. I do dearly appreciate your efforts.”
Don’t mention it; if it didn’t benefit me, I would have held my tongue! But I want to stress here, IMO, your drinking is not just a bad habit but tightly related to your unresolved past “baggage”, from which you’ve been running. I understand and agree it’s very scary, painful or even paralyzing to dig oneself deep within; however, you’re not alone in the site, there are several others.
“I don’t know why you waste your time on a lost soul like me. I’ve long dug my own grave. “
Trust my words again: I’m NOT wasting my time here on you or anyone else (any other ‘ghosts’). Every post I’ve posted within nearly 3 years (by July 21) benefited myself in so many intellectual, psychological and spiritual ways…
It’s a continuous journey of exploring, self-therapy, healing, and healthily connecting with other human mind/soul. Using a common LwL term, I’m “addicted” to learning with my born “nosiness” 👃 (brought me uncountable troubles since the age of 4! 🙄) and edgeless 🧠 &🪷
“But I will try to solider on in your practiced Stoic ways.”
It’s up to you for your own wellbeing, I’m not your mother or Mamma. But if you use “wrong” adjectives (i.e “worried) on me, I’ll correct you without hesitations. 🫂
Right now, I am on my long summer break, having more free time; but it’s not enough to get my pending writing project done. I still have several tutoring weekly. A 70 yrs retired doctor wants to learn my native tongue to prevent a possible dementia; he’s much slower than those IT professionals in their 20s~30s.
But that objectively good-looking 38 yrs. Ex-g#3 (glimmer from last year before Italy trip), working in finance, is also slow in memory despite he runs every marathon (he bores me nowadays in our online sessions and I have to pretend to be enthusiastic). In hindsight, I wonder what made him to ever glimmer for me for a couple of week? 🧐 Eye-glimmer is such a mystery!
🎩 🥃, do you have to work on weekend? Hope you have a restful weekend!
🎩 Adam,
I just saw my grammatical error 🙈: you were saying that I’m “the conscious” that you can’t apply to yourself. Does that make me like a 👻?
Arguably, I’m a fleshy human female, laced with a small dose of Stoic, IFS, Don Quixote’s “conscious”? 😃
Miss Snow
Allow me address this question and come back to you on your other responses.
“My conscious” as in the (at least in the west) the illustration of the tiny devil on your left shoulder and the angel on your right. An illustration of choosing what is best for you based on (albeit) preconceived notions about what is morally wrong and right. Mostly a Christian thing.
You are my moralistic angel. Stoicism aside, you speak the truth to me. If that falls on deaf ears that’s my fault.
Most of the people in my life ignore what they don’t want to see in me. Including my own parents. Alcoholism is an ugly thing. And if I’m not drinking and driving or laying hands on Momma then why address it? I’m not using it as an excuse. I’m trying to help you understand why this hole is so deep to dig out of.
Keep hitting me with those Stoic understandings. It might not slow my drink but it slows my limerence or threat of it again. As I mentioned to Miss Norma, this potential LO has many undesirable traits yet there’s still a bit of a draw. I’m going to do my best to keep my head out of the limerent clouds. But she’s, in some ways a lot like LO, and at the same time a lot like Miss Norma’s LO to her. But it’s easier for me to be harsh on men for bad behavior than women.
How about this one Miss Norma for our dance together? I was singing this at work and one of my young employees was like “Adam you know NKOTB?” And I’m like “young lady The Delfonics sang it before those kids were ever born lol” 😂
Didn’t I Do It — The Delfonics
https://youtu.be/gM6kZabHf4w?si=UWpfsMcOPNfRKKo5
To Adam:
I will dance with you to anything.
I remember that song very well.
🎩 🥃 ,
““My conscious” as in the (at least in the west) the illustration of the tiny devil on your left shoulder and the angel on your right. An illustration of choosing what is best for you based on (albeit) preconceived notions about what is morally wrong and right. Mostly a Christian thing.”
No wonder I was so confused about this concept of “conscious, I’m not religious but spiritual, I have never read Old Testament beyond 5~10 pages. So I’ll leave notion of “devil” or “angel” to you for keeping.
“You are my moralistic angel. “
Me, “moralistic”? 😳 Didn’t I throw that golden title to someone else once upon a time? 🧐 *cough …… cough……cough” I’m getting dementia now… If you know all my internal colors, you’d definitely not use this adjective on me. 😇
“Stoicism aside, you speak the truth to me. If that falls on deaf ears that’s my fault.”
I’m glad that you can take a bit of my subjective truth (there is a belief/argument that there is NO objective truth out there?). Stoicism is at least a wise/effective mental/emotional shield protecting one from unnecessary hurts, if its other disciplines are too hard to follow. But more than 90% of population doesn’t know how to train the mind and apply it to benefit their life.
“Most of the people in my life ignore what they don’t want to see in me. Including my own parents.”
People don’t like to get into others’ problems, in both the worlds, We have the idiom: “Sweep only your own doorstep, and don’t worry about your neighbor’s roof frost.”— meaning “Mind your own business.” But in the East, your true/closed friends and loving SO would definitely make their best efforts to help you resolve your problems.
“Alcoholism is an ugly thing. And if I’m not drinking and driving or laying hands on Momma then why address it? “
It’s not just ugly, but very unhealthy both to body and mind. Your head can’t think straight, let alone to fend off unwanted limerence or handle other matters with a clear head. And substance addiction (maybe some behavioral ones as well?) would make one mentally/emotionally/psychologically WEAK, forget about carrying on even an ounce of Stoicism.
“I’m not using it as an excuse. I’m trying to help you understand why this hole is so deep to dig out of.”
Yes, you ARE, and I’m not take it! If you think there is a hole inside you, then there would be a way to fill up that hole, with therapies (self or/and professional) and a more purposeful, healthy living!
“Keep hitting me with those Stoic understandings. It might not slow my drink but it slows my limerence or threat of it again. “
I believe/think Stoic can help prevent one from falling into any type of obsessions, even if it’s somewhat inherited. Knowing my parents, I definitely believe my rumination habit is inherited. They did/do not know what Stoicism is, but now I do; so there is no excuse for me to continue the unwanted OCD habits.
“As I mentioned to Miss Norma, this potential LO has many undesirable traits yet there’s still a bit of a draw. “
Is this the girl who sat with you during your lunch hour at night? 😳 What did I say about her a few days ago? 😊
“I’m going to do my best to keep my head out of the limerent clouds. But she’s, in some ways a lot like LO, and at the same time a lot like Miss Norma’s LO to her.”
As we discussed many times before: if you (collective) don’t dig out the root(s) of your last/past LE(s), you’ll just keep falling into new ones, one after another. It’s not a simple middle-age crisis. And NO one else can dig out that root for you, but perhaps lend you effective tools.
“But it’s easier for me to be harsh on men for bad behavior than women.”
Sorry to be direct again: I think you need to abandon/tone down your traditional notion of chivalry or male chauvinism. Most of the modern women, especially younger ones are not the conventional “damsels in distress”; a few ones might even be “damsels in wishing control of knee-weak men”. They can take emotional/psychologically advantage of you, like Norma’s LO to her.
Let me send you a masculine song (totally speaks to my warrior part 🏇🏻 ):
Footsteps —
https://youtu.be/C23WPqgC3Zk?si=2VmMn2ttsjb_NyTT
My last LE is so dead because its root, “Maternal Longing” was swept away by a sudden envisioned “tornado” within 2.5 hours, and LE just went with it instantly. With this Longing permanently gone, I become my own mother, AND a “mother” to my own mother, who has deprived me the maternal love since my first memory of her at age of four….
Now, I’m the Master of my Selfs (its 16 IFS leadership parts all active), with so much security, joy, love, peace and energy —
This is my life — https://youtu.be/mvtd6HTffRc?si=yy1AKtLlFg2W2e1k 🪩 💃
With my entire reproduction system gone, I’m left with a vertical scar and can never wear 👙 … But I survived and revived in BTS tempo… 💃
As I am — https://youtu.be/6cu2OmmwP3s?si=soozNUwvGHIk_iH-
🔥 🍑 🍷 Mila,
“This is exactly at the core of all my ups and downs and back and forths… “
Yes, it’s what we’ve been going through since two years ago, when I was still in my old job and told you the fable, “The Tiger and Village Hunter” — telling kids to be grateful for others’ kind deeds.
“I really try to treasure what‘s there, but it was/is hard to see through limerent and post-limerent fog what actually is really there to treasure.”
Exactly. Your LE and post-E fogs still block you from seeing the previous him and your prior friendship. Back then, the friendship was enough and you had no issue if he did what he still does today. Why?
Forgive me if I’m too blunt about what I’m about to say, since my mind nowadays is much more toned to Stoic mentality. And I can only speculate from what you collectively told us and from my continuous impressions or illusions about your dilemma.
1. LE dialed up your expectations from the same person; so suddenly whoever he was and whatever he was doing are no longer enough. You badly wanted//expected his emotional, mental and behavioral reciprocation at the same level or intensity of your LE.
2. Before LE, his neurodivergence or limited social skills did not seem to bother you that much, but in LE and afterwards, his limitation protrudes/pronounces louder now.
3. When I said, “Treasure him and your friendship prior to LE”, I meant to keep that precious connection, as IT WAS in your head/memory. Treasuring is an internal attitude foremost, which requires not let the later LE mind contaminate the previous, “purer” friendship.
4. Even today (based on your chats with others and me), you still hold some “resentment”, because the post-LE fog still blocks you from seeing/remembering/sensing, on a visceral level, what was there before.
5. Intellectually, you know 10 years of friendship was more than fine and pleasant; therefore, can you just accept and treasure that reality as a truth, even if the experience seems to be unclear or lesser now? Could you possibly be a bit of Stoic: accept what was/is in the past reality, but not let your evolving “subjective truth” — your current mind, to reduce or negate it?
“Since you all know him only through my description, it’s also hard for you to see.”
Totally true. I can’t see or sense him or your interactions but I can sense or deduce from you descriptions and brave, honest expressions. 10 years of good working friendship is not a small matter, it’s not easy to walk away or pick up from where it was left, after the “stupid limerence” — your words. 😀
“Most of my struggle in the last phase was that I honestly would like to treasure him, but I don’t quite manage it to get to the right mindset”
Again, treasuring is an attitude — hold dear within, not concrete actions. From an Eastern perspective, I’d say it’s caused by the insufficient gratitude for that special 10 years of your personal history — how many 10 years do we have in life? Very few people had/have your kind in their lifetime. Yet in the past 2~3 years, the LE brain primarily focused on what you couldn’t and didn’t get from the same person and nicky-picking all his limited interaction with you.
When you feel frustrated or disappointed again, could you possibly compare your treasure with lesser fortunate people/situations? Can you imagine strolling on the beach in the Sunset when you’re 80 and say to yourself, “Ah, that’s such a marvelous 10 years with MFF”?
“at some point I thought maybe it’s best to simply give up, let go and just say, I‘m not capable of appreciating this friendship in the right way any more, so be it, I give up.”
You can still treasure him and the previous connection while letting it go or giving it up! In my last post, I didn’t say to keep it or give it up, but wished your efforts in appreciating what it WAS, at both mental and emotional levels, even though you still can’t see it clearly in the fog.
I agree that if you are unable to appreciate it in the “right ways” now, then let it be or rest your mind for a while, or a long while. Your mind seems to want a quick solution/settlement, but it’s not something up to your wish/will. The other side and the situation are totally OUT of your control — you cannot will it in any directions! Can you truly accept your frustration/indecision as a current REALITY? Don’t resist anything, if the mind is relaxed, the fog may dissipate soon.
“I mean, I‘m still there. I invite him over when he‘s in the area, I visit him when I‘m in his. I sent him a birthday present etc.”
So either keep doing them out of sincerity or skip them when your heart is not all there. Ask: could I do it whole heartedly without expecting something in return? Can I still generously gift or love (minus Eros) a loyal friend without any undercurrent expectations of his praise /validation /payment in return?
Of course, in normal two-way relational traffic, the other side would do the same to you, NOT just in return, but in genuineness without conditions. However, if you label/suspect him as a neurodivergent, backed up by other co-workers’ observation, then you’ll have to give up any neurotypical/social expectations from him. (You have not done it yet, although intellectualized it). It’s very, very challenging, if not impossible, because you don’t know how this particular neurodivergent mind works towards you, as a close/needed friend in his mind.
The neurodivergent brain is wired very differently from neurotypical, brilliant in something we could never dream of matching — math, logic, memory, language, music, etc. but with limitation in social interactions or picking up social cues . (I married one, so I knew what it was like with xSO). They can learn and remember exceptional well, if you clearly tell them: This is what you are supposed to say or do, when I/others said this or did that….
From your other posts, I think your MFF did listen to your complaints and changed his interactions with you by giving more: initiating text, calling, or caring…. Give him a big credit! I somehow intuitively sense I could understand him better and your importance to him. If you give him up first, it might be devastating to him — a possibility to keep in mind, please!
I’ve learned in a hard way that in social interactions, NEVER assume this or that since everyone is UNIQUE, especially people with different cultural upbringing like you and me, or diffident neural mapping like your MFF or my XSO.
“I just don‘t seem to be able to give more than that, I don’t want to text, and he wouldn’t be a person I would turn to when I feel bad or sad, because I know he would most probably not give me solace or warmth in a way that would reach me.”
Then stop giving in those specific words and actions! Again, to treasure someone or something is an ATTITUDE in one’s mind, supposed to bring us gratitude and peace/settlement. LE is also an emotion dominant in our head for the time being, not necessarily mean concrete words/actions, especially when either or both sides are NOT available.
“But he could still turn to me any time he feels bad and I would try my best to support him, because I really like him. I just know that I can’t expect the same from him, not in a way that counts for me.”
Precisely! So what are you doing to do about it? Accept the reality or fight against it in futility? Are you able to give him supports when he needs, without mental pre-conditions or expectations? What’s the quality or quantity of your “liking” him?
“I‘m actually not sure about my heart because I’ve never been to a cardiologist, only did ECG with a GP.”
ECG is not enough. Ask your GP for CT Angio Coronary to check Total Coronary, and Aortic Calcium score. (You might need a sound reason for those pricy test). My TCC score was 0 with a tiny bit of AC points two years ago, like someone in their 20~30s. Also ask for Lipoprotein A (LPA) to see family genetic factors relating to cholesterol level and its development tendencies.
“I like to work out without that, I can focus better on my body while strength training, also thoughts begin to flow while doing cardio- at which other time can one just let thoughts come and go!”
Exactly same as me: so many new thoughts or inspirations sprout out of my silent walks along a river, or slow PT muscle-holding, or even BTS beats. Moving Qi stimulates the mind, not the other way around.
We’re both ESL speakers, so let its limitation shows English errors. 🫂
Hi Snow,
Thank you very much for your post, you are right in so many ways. Forgive me if I tell you when I read sentences like „you have to..you should…insufficient gratitude“ I balk.
I think I’m past all „should“ and „have to“s in this case, because that’s what I was punishing myself with for the longest time, and I‘m done with that. I‘m not „insufficiently grateful“, and after all I’ve worked on and done, I don’t have any obligations to think or feel in a certain way.
I can understand his neurodivergence but still say that I cannot put up with it. I think one has to be careful to contain one’s energy balance for health, and the healthiest thing for me and probably him and this friendship is now not to dwell on what I should or shouldn’t do or feel or think.
I‘m still very grateful for your remarks , they hit the marks on some points, but all this is somehow not the issue any more. I don’t know how to express it. I do muse about this friendship from time to time , sometimes it still irks me that it’s not all solved and peaceful, but what I’m sure if is that this are after-waves (?) and that actually this is all past. There’s no room in me to be more thoughtful, more grateful, more stoic towards him or whatever.
I think I owe it to myself to acknowledge that, and it could also be best for him (but of course not on me to judge that) when I let it all go and put a healthy distance between us and maybe even let it fade out.
Interesting about the heart things you advise to check. It wouldn’t be wrong in my case since my father had some issues with cholesterol and heart. I tend to be scared to know the truth about my health although I’m overall a healthy person, and putting my head in the sand like the big bird, but I’ll address it with my GP..
Thanks Snow, for your thoughts and advice! I might take a break from LwL again because while I still love reading and miss you all, I feel it doesn’t do me good to dissect (learned the word from LaR!) that stuff all over again.
🤗 Mila ,
So sorry that my posts seem to have agitated you further. I hope you could forget my bluntness that is part of my impatience and a part of my professional side effect — preaching.
“Forgive me if I tell you when I read sentences like „you have to..you should…insufficient gratitude“ I balk.”
Nothing to apologize here. Seriously feel free to balk louder to me here — ❄️ 🧠 🔨 🔨
“I think I’m past all „should“ and „have to“s in this case, because that’s what I was punishing myself with for the longest time, and I‘m done with that. I‘m not „insufficiently grateful“, and after all I’ve worked on and done, I don’t have any obligations to think or feel in a certain way.”
For months, I truly believed you’ve moved on with ultimate peace…. But I was almost shocked that you still had so much to say in the last few days. I don’t think one is obligated to think, especially to feel this or that way. Even Stoics totally accept that emotions are also OUT of our control! But thoughts (T mind) can be chosen and then gradually lead F mind — one of things I remember distinctively from DrL’s one blog, so aligned with my father’s words, and then Stoical soul.
“I can understand his neurodivergence but still say that I cannot put up with it. I think one has to be careful to contain one’s energy balance for health, and the healthiest thing for me and probably him and this friendship is now not to dwell on what I should or shouldn’t do or feel or think.”
Okay! You know your energy level and clear about your preference, then no more dwelling/indecisiveness! My point was when an experience has sweet & bitter (in this order) flavors, let’s remember its sweetness; time will rinse off the bitter tastes, especially for forgiving people with a good life like you.
Most of limerence cases don’t have the prior sweet friendship like LaR’s, and yours, that’s your fortune/treasure. I would in theory NOT let LE ruin it, but I haven’t tested in reality.
“I‘m still very grateful for your remarks , they hit the marks on some points, but all this is somehow not the issue any more. “
Don’t mention it! Sorry about my narrow/odd perspective and misunderstanding from merely written words in English. Thank you for giving a chance to discuss those challenging issues, which were/are not in distance from me, as well….
“sometimes it still irks me that it’s not all solved and peaceful, but what I’m sure if is that this are after-waves (?) “
Yeah, I hear you! That’s why I felt compelled to say something hopefully to bring more peace in you. Feeling and grounding in peace/joy is my primary aim in life.
Whether your current feelings are “after-waves”, I’m not a professional to tell. In general, you have much richer emotional life than a Stoic 🤖 like me, so this kind of ups and downs is probably normal? (I’m sure Catcyclist’s therapist has a lot to say about it … 🙂).
“that actually this is all past. There’s no room in me to be more thoughtful, more grateful, more stoic towards him or whatever.”
Hmm…? I might be wrong again: to me it is other way around (sounds like catch-22 here). Speaking just for myself: because I’m more thoughtful, grateful, and Stoic nowadays, a plenty of mental space (taken by the past) is freed up. I have zero residual resentment towards ET (except a tiny bit of myself) and can stand still/tall in my current reality as it IS…
“I think I owe it to myself to acknowledge that, and it could also be best for him (but of course not on me to judge that) when I let it all go and put a healthy distance between us and maybe even let it fade out.”
You would know most whether it “could also be” best for him, and both of you. Just be more decisive, which is what most limerents here need.
“Thanks Snow, for your thoughts and advice! I might take a break from LwL again because while I still love reading and miss you all, I feel it doesn’t do me good to dissect (learned the word from LaR!) that stuff all over again.”
I totally understand and agree with you here. Remember Nisor? LwL was actually making her LE worse, so she wisely left. I hope she’s totally recovered by now.
“What I meant is not necessarily that this friendship is a thing of the past or I’m determined to fade it out. “
I’m glad to hear this. Just let emotions, like wind, come, stay, and go, while you sit/walk and feel them without futilely fighting with them. Don’t resist unwanted ones, they will pass as well in time.
“I just think now, that to come to the right mindset of benevolent neutrality and relaxedness, it’s necessary for me to fade out and distance, not work more on it but stop working at all. That’s my innermost feeling.”
Yes! Fade out and distance in concrete actions, stop working/resisting in mind, then your desired peace will arrive and stay.
“Interesting about the heart things you advise to check. It wouldn’t be wrong in my case since my father had some issues with cholesterol and heart. “
The same with my father, who used to be very lean with even low blood pressure, then his “food loving” turned everything upside down, which sadly contributed to his brain stem stroke in the end. I see his gene marker in my blood work, thus I’m more careful staying away from all high cholesterol and junk food — they simply APPEAR like poison to me.
“I tend to be scared to know the truth about my health although I’m overall a healthy person, and putting my head in the sand like the big bird, but I’ll address it with my GP.”
Don’t be scared to know health truth, because you can take care of things early enough. Otherwise, one may ignorantly let those dormant cancerous cells (in all of us) grow inside. I would have been died 6 years ago if my thyroid was not taken out soon enough. (Most of the prior test reports, except a small one, did not show any abnormality)
Please say something as the last word of our chapter. 😊 🫂
Hi Snow
„Seriously feel free to balk louder to me here“
I didn’t mean bark, but I meant balk or baulk 😂like I refuse or hesitate.
No need to apologize please! as a wrote to Marcia, I talked about my LE again and of course people comment on it! I just realized now that it’s not doing me good or that I’d rather stop, that‘s all.
I‘m mostly at peace, but sometimes I muse about it again, and the old resentful feeling is a habit that sometimes in reflex shows up, even if I know it’s a shadow, that’s why I think it’s good for both of us not to have too much contact.
Well I’m „food-loving“🙈! I seriously should curb my habit of eating too much sweet stuff. I go back to it again and again. That’s why I might really check my blood now simply that if the longtime sugar or cholesterol is too high I get a scare and finally get a grip on it…
🔥 🍑 🍷,
“I didn’t mean bark, but I meant balk or baulk 😂like I refuse or hesitate.”
I didn’t see it until you just pointed out. I just intuitively knew that my previous post contained a laughable errors (I don’t use AI to edit any of my posts), and it fulfilled the self-prophecy — “We’re both ESL speakers, so let its limitation shows English errors. 🫂”.
I tried to imagine how you looked like while barking at ❄️ and reexamined my previous post to see how many “should”… “have to” I used. I had illusion that I was getting better in using more “?” mark, perhaps still not enough.
“I talked about my LE again and of course people comment on it! I just realized now that it’s not doing me good or that I’d rather stop, that‘s all.”
Chatting about the past or current LE is not problem, it’s what this site is for. I guess it’s the scope, the intensity, and MORE details of the same, old issue in your recent posts left one(me) an impression that your mind was very unquiet again, which deeply puzzled me 🤔. I agree with you, repeatedly talk about anything fuels that thing to “bloom” again… better to leave it in its historical spot.
“I‘m mostly at peace, but sometimes I muse about it again, and the old resentful feeling is a habit that sometimes in reflex shows up, even if I know it’s a shadow, that’s why I think it’s good for both of us not to have too much contact.”
I’m really glad to hear that you’re at peace. Mental reflex? I guess very occasionally (when I was physically down or didn’t sleep enough) I had such a “mental reflex” in regretting my illusive thinking, weak mind, and embarrassing behavior during my XLE, but I don’t see/sense a shadow of them with me.
Anything in the past, up to yesterday, is already “out of my control”, I can only adjust my reactions/attitudes towards whatever happened — either gratitude and/or Stoic let-go, with the sweat of workout and dance (more powerful than Taichi).
Your MFF is largely out of sight, so it’s much easier to tone down your interactions. Plus, he has his SO and family 24/7, it wouldn’t be too hard for him if you gradually pull back and distance. The problem may arise if he’s in some “crisis” and needs your mental/emotional support again; bear that possibility in mind and prepare for how to handle it in advance — Stoic.
I’m lucky that I never developed sweet tooth — unwillingly take a kid’s birthday cake once or twice a year at weekend school. I use cream with brown sugar for my daily expresso and sometimes indulge dark chocolate or cookies; but my glucose level often dropped below the minimum. I enjoy food (cooked by others or myself) mostly while sharing with good friends.
After 40, digestion and energy burning in all body type slow down, so some extra begin accumulating inside gradually causing chronic problem. It’s wise to have annul checkup regularly, which would give us more peace of mind.
Keep feeling peaceful and joyful everyday! 🫂
Hi Snow,
will have my blood checked in the next days for other reasons, but very thankful about the advice on Lipoprotein a, included it in the list!
Hi Snow,
I want to correct myself or I didn’t express myself well. What I meant is not necessarily that this friendship is a thing of the past or I’m determined to fade it out. I just think now, that to come to the right mindset of benevolent neutrality and relaxedness, it’s necessary for me to fade out and distance, not work more on it but stop working at all.
That’s my innermost feeling.
I am giving an update on my attempt to deal with limerence with “exposure therapy” to LO.
I have had some success recently, as I noticed I am getting more and more bored by our conversations.
I made the mistake of asking an innocent question about paving materials, which led to a lengthy lecture, complete with multiple pictures from his phone. He asked, “Would you like me to sketch it for you?” I am like, NO NO NO.
I don’t doubt that he knows what he’s talking about. I am just not that interested, and his long explanation exhausts me.
I hated myself for not being able to keep control of the conversation better.
I also hate myself for perpetually hoping he’ll be nicer.
I’ll get there eventually.
Thanks to those who haven’t given up on me.
Miss Norma
I can finally get, as much grief as I’ve given you, how a totally unrequited person, like your LO, could appeal to a person was beyond me. Potentially she’s so abrasive to my personality but damn Dear Norma she still appeals. Maybe I’m sentimental and old and it’s okay for a woman to do me that way but not about you.
To Adam:
The heart wants what it wants.
Hi Adam,
I’ve been meaning to write to you for a while, but setting aside the usual excuses, let me say that I’m most impressed at how quickly you got back on your feet after losing your old job. I don’t think I could have done nearly as well, with my tendency to wallow in self-pity.
My question is about this person you’re referring to, is she the person from your former employer, who left a few years ago? Did you just come to a new realization about her? As Norma says, “The heart wants what it wants.” I can certainly identify with that feeling.
Catcycalist
No. The present woman does, in hindsight remind me of LO. I, unlike, LO will see her flaws as a human. I’ve idealized her innocence. But I have that flaw with all women. I can see this new woman for who she is, but it doesn’t retard the hero complex any. She still needs saving.
It’s like looking at the bottom of your glass. You know another one isn’t going to help. But it’s not gonna hurt either, right?
Hi Adam,
Thanks for clarifying.
In my most recent limerent experience (I hate using the term LO, and will not use it anymore), the young lady in question evoked forty year-old memories of another young lady, and I tried (in my fantasy world only!) to recreate that failed, age-old experience. So I can empathise with you.
Interestingly, my saviour complex came into play with both of my significant relationships prior to marriage, but not so much in my marriage or in any of the limerent experiences.
The first girlfriend, when I was in my twenties, was part of a combination Cinderella, Pygmalion story. She was raised by her divorced mother in a South American nation, but was sent to live with her father and stepmother in the US, primarily for better educational opportunities (college). It turned out that her stepmother, who was only a decade or so older, hated her and was jealous of her, and treated her much more harshly than her teenage daughters.
as to the Pygmalion part, that’s where I came in. I was her tutor in community college, helping her in classes in which she was struggling. It did not involve any attempts to change her lovely Spanish accent. (I’m sure MJ would be interested, but she’s around sixty now!) While there were initially intense and passionate feelings initially in the relationship, the whole premise of the relationship was wrong — I was trying to change her into a star student, but she was just facing too many struggles at the time, both economic and social. After I moved, that relationship just fell apart.
The second relationship, in my early thirties, started even more passionately than the first. Initially, it seemed to start on a more equal basis — we were equally matched in so many ways. However, she had one huge struggle: a severe case of anorexia. We both thought our all consuming love for each other (which was undoubtedly just mutual limerence) would help cure the anorexia. However, it took me several months to figure out that she was more addicted to her anorexia than to me, whereas I was addicted to her only. I didn’t realize until three decades later that my repeated limerent experiences were as powerful as addictions as her anorexia.
My wife of 23 years, by contrast, seemed (and is) a very strong woman, and I never saw her as a damsel in distress. I did have warm, affectionate feelings towards her, but never any all consuming limerence.
As to my five to six limerent experiences, I did not, in general, see them as damsels in distress. Instead, I saw them as practically perfect goddesses — absolute ideals in various combinations of beauty, intellect, and personality factors that changed with each girl/lady.
As to “the bottom of your glass”, I absolutely do not want another limerent experience. I hope I can commit to this, and not say it only because I am still experiencing the tail end of the limerence, which means that nobody else measures up anyway.
I assume you’re being ironic in “But it’s not gonna hurt either, right?”
All the best.
CatCyclist,
Apologies for cutting in.
Re your dislike of the term ‘Limerent Object’, I used to hate the term too. The immediate reaction was always “but she’s not an OBJECT”. What DrL and others helped me realise is that the word Object forces the limerent to admit their liability in the process. No, he or she isn’t an Object. He or she is a Person. But we objectIFIED them by ascribing, in our heads, all these qualities, powers and feelings that are not true, or are half true. The Object side lives in our heads and is different from the person who never asked for the objectification.
Be free not to call her that if it helps you, but once I got more settled with the above it made me see things more clearly. Your reasons for not wanting to use the term may of course differ – I’d be interested to know!
Are you anywhere nearer the decision about whether to step further back or ‘further in’ at work?
Hi LaR,
Great to hear from you — I welcome your “cutting in” and indeed, others are welcome to cut in as well!
I am well aware of the rationale that Tennov and DrL have for using the term ‘Limerent Object’, and I don’t have any objection to their (and LwL-ers) to using the term. Instead, my new approach — a trial balloon if you will — is different. I was wondering if assigning them such a glorious title was giving them undue importance, on par with our SO, when what we should be doing is minimizing their importance in our lives and in our minds, and the first step in doing this might be to strip them of their titles — dethroning them, so to speak. Just an idea, it may or may not have merit.
So how did I get to this point? Around this time last year, just as my “LO” (I’ll use quotes, thereby avoiding using the actual term, hehe) had returned for full time employment and I had started reading and posting on this site, I made a full fledged effort to learn everything about limerence and to “deprogram” myself. I found that while I learned a great deal about limerence and about myself, and sometimes made progress using NC and LC techniques, the end result was that by winter, my intrusive thoughts were worse than ever; worse, in fact, than any of my previous five or six limerent experiences. I had also been seeing a therapist for the prior 18 months, also with the goal of getting over the limerence. While the therapist’s approach was somewhat different than DrL’s, I was getting frustrated with both. I decided to end therapy and maybe also back off a bit on my LwL posts, in trying to “cure” my limerent addiction.
So, I started to investigate other approaches and other blogs. One that I found the most helpful was by Sarah James Pearce, a therapist specializing in limerence. One column especially struck me, and I decided to shift my approach to one of acceptance, as opposed to “trying too hard”, which is exactly what I was doing.
https://limerencefree.substack.com/p/how-acceptance-not-control-loosens
In the four months since then, I feel that I may finally be making progress without the relapses that put me back in square one. Now, it genuinely seems two steps forward, one or half a step back. Fingers crossed.
To be fair, I have also made a few other major changes within this time period. The most important one is to leave my job by autumn of this year, giving me only a few more months to wind up my projects. I have only told a few of my direct coworkers and the project lead; I’ve not yet informed management, giving me an “escape hatch” — which I DO NOT intend to use! This decision had more to do with whether the job truly aligned with my values and “purpose”, as we call it on LwL, than with contact with “LO”. After struggling with this for over a year, I made a decision, and suddenly I feel that I may be on the verge of regaining control of my destiny. Of course, there is still a bit of fear about the uncertainty of what comes next in my post retirement life.
As to my interactions with “LO”, I’ll try to keep this as short as possible. My last direct interaction with her was two months ago, and it was the least emotional — the most “normal” — of the three big in-person interactions I’ve had with her since her return. I deliberately chose not to tell her about my decision regarding the job, and also succeeded in not getting drawn into euphoria-inducing topics, such as poring over travel photographs after my recent travels. There is still some grief about “lost opportunities”, whether or not they were truly there, but I hope I am willing to accept this loss, as I will truly miss her.
And one more thing that might be helping me change direction. I re-established contact with one of my college “LO”s from four decades ago. That’s a story that deserves its own separate post, which I promise to do within a day or two.
Thanks again for asking.
CatCyclist,
Thanks for your reply and for giving us an update on your situation, approach to limerence, and life choices.
Your reasons for not saying ‘LO’ make total sense. You might have seen I have sometimes called mine MFF (Mentally Fond Friend, became Mentally *Fondled* Friend in a language joke with other posters), and that was for similar reasons of wanting to turn the power down.
I’m glad you’ve found an approach that seems to be working better. If your therapist’s and DrL’s approaches were at odds with each other, that must have been hard to navigate.
Once I found LwL, I kind of just launched headlong into the community and stopped looking for other resources. But that other limerence substack looks really useful for a different perspective. Much of what Sarah Pearse says rings true.
Like you, I have tried to cut down how much I read and write about limerence, other than ‘short bursts’, as I agree that too much thinking about it gives it oxygen.
Interesting but not altogether surprising that the ‘accept rather than fight’ route had a positive effect on you. As long as we fight, we are beating ourselves over the head with a stick, and that adds to the pain. As long as acceptance doesn’t turn to self-enabling (and from what you said, it isn’t), it is a good and necessary step, imo. Even with other situations I’ve faced unrelated to limerence, acceptance (even of very unpleasant feelings) has always been the bridge to change.
I wish you luck with the next bits and I am fascinated to hear about why you got in touch with your college ‘LO’ and how it went. I have half a hunch I can guess some of what might have motivated it, but won’t put words in your mouth!
To CatCyclist:
I have been reading some books by the Vietnamese philosopher, Thich Nhat Hanh. He recommends, rather than fighting negative emotions, to cradle them as one would a frightened child.
That seems to help.
To LaR:
I actually think “Limerent Object” is a perfect description, because my LO is a creation of my own mind who bears little resemblance to the actual man involved.
The more time I spend with him, the more I realize that my projections and illusions are faulty. The more time I spend with him, the more I realize that we are not very compatible, even as friends.
I was so taken with him when we were just friendly acquaintances, but my assumptions about him were all wrong.
The more I get to know the real person, the less I like him.
Norma,
I think it’s important to realise:
1. There is something about that person (some real qualities they have, or seeming behaviours, or it might just be their looks) that means we make them, out of all the options available, into our limerent Object.
2. We then add A LOT to that, and what results (the Object) is very different from the Real Person.
3. The Person never asked to become an Object. They didn’t want it (usually, anyway).
Now, this is not said to excuse how he’s treated you. But some people will deal with being Objectified better than others do.
Can you break his spell now you see more and more of the negative qualities of the Person that don’t align with the Object?
To LaR:
The spell is not broken, but it’s more broken than it has been at any time up to this point.
Some of the things he says and does are completely incomprehensible to me, and I remind myself that I am very lucky to not be more entangled with him.
When I last saw him, he told me that he has a terrible temper (yeah, no kidding), and that I haven’t seen the full extent of it. OMG, he has gone scorched earth on me over NOTHING. I have no desire to see any more of his temper. The last time he unleashed his anger on me, I hurried away from him, sobbing.
He always apologizes profusely afterward, but an apology only does so much. He’s quite a bit taller than me, and he has ginormous hands. He has a habit of pointing his forefinger accusingly at me and stabbing the air in front of my face. It’s very intimidating.
I don’t think he has much respect for me, and that’s kind of a deal-breaker. He would probably disagree with that assessment, but his actions speak for themselves.
Hi LaR,
Thanks again for your support and sage words.
I wouldn’t say that my therapist’s and Dr L’s approaches were completely at odds with each other, but had perhaps fifty percent overlap. Dr L’s “reprogramming” approach appealed to my highly STEM trained brain, but as time went on, I found that it focused almost completely on training the executive brain, while the subconscious rebelled against it ever more violently. But I’m not necessarily blaming Dr L; perhaps I had just interpreted and applied his lessons incorrectly. The therapist’s approach, by contrast, was to just feel your emotions; there is no shame in having crushes; it happens all the time. There is also no shame in objectifying – “we all do it” – contrary to the usual feminist proclamations I was expecting denouncing the objectification of women — using the word in its usual (not Tennov’s) sense. Overall, she was really good at validation, making me feel heard, and in reducing feelings of guilt and shame. But I do feel that she went too far in that she seemed to participate in my idealization of LO, as in going along, even promoting, my assertion that she’s a uniquely extraordinary, “once in a generation” talent. She also appeared to help keep my hope alive, as in “you never know, she (LO) might surprise you by writing back” (BTW, that was a correct prediction!) and that yes, she (the therapist) has seen it all, even actual age-gap affairs that were consummated! So, trying to squash hope on the one hand while still keeping it alive, as well as trying to de-idealize LO while still seeing her as this absolutely amazing being, was kind of hard to navigate.
About my college LOs. To be clear, there were two, and they should not be confused.
One was a long, painfully drawn out, five-year non-affair, which ended on a sad note, with us agreeing to cease all further communications after I disclosed at the end of those five years, well past when any opportunity might have existed (in retrospect, that opportunity never really existed, because she always had a boyfriend). The despair I felt generated a total lack of focus in graduate school, and I ended up dropping out. I regarded her as a true kindred spirit, “the one that got away”. Until recently, she set the standard that no other woman could match.
With the lady I just reconnected with, we had a much shorter friendship, but she had affected me extremely hard, and I had disclosed early, which in retrospect was an excellent decision. Among all of my limerent experiences, this was the only one where the friendship survived beyond the limerence period. It was a strange case where at least three of my friends, including my roommate, were totally besotted by her, as well as several other guys in the dorm. She was an exchange student from a nearby women’s college – a “convent”, in her words – in contrast to the 80 percent male population of our STEM oriented college. Also, unlike other women at our college, who dressed similarly to the men, i.e., in t-shirts, she appeared as an exotic Greek beauty with her makeup and highly stylized braids, but her jeans brought up comparisons with Brooke Shields. She somewhat promoted this image by reminding us that she was a part time model. But the most apt comparison might be with an Egyptian queen and her foot soldiers — us shy, nerdy, not so aggressive STEM students. Therefore, I shall retroactively name her as Cleopatra. Setting the absurd imagery aside, she was also a nerdy student like the rest of us, but with a heart of gold. Indeed, she genuinely let me down gracefully, making me feel uplifted even in my sadness, something I don’t think has happened to me in any other affair or limerence experience. She left little uncertainty – no flirting – just straightforward, two-way communication. That’s what made the friendship possible – we knew exactly where the other stood. She even told me about her relationships with the guys in our dorm, which rarely lasted more than a few weeks. So, she turned to dating professors at nearby universities, but only to end up complaining about their huge egos.
I stayed in touch with her intermittently over the next decade, and I visited her in the early nineties, after she had become a practicing physician. She was still complaining about egotistical men and her inability to commit to any of them. We lost touch soon afterwards – email addresses did not easily transfer in those days.
I got in touch with her via LinkedIn shortly after New Year’s, after three decades of unintentional no-contact. The depth of her response impressed me. One thing she said that I found particularly intriguing was her claim to being “really the same person as in college”. By contrast, I found her, at les through her writings, far more mature than the silly young beings that all of us were in college. Also, the relative immaturity of my current limerent object became glaringly obvious, with its frustrating push-pull dynamics. To be clear, I take full responsibility for my part in creating those dynamics.
Last month, I was given a ticket by my sister to attend a concert in this lady’s city. I asked my wife if I should mention that I was going to be in town to my lady friend. She told me to stop mulling things endlessly, that I should just go if I really wanted to, and I did REALLY want to. A few days later, my wife asked me if I had a crush on this friend. I had to tell her the truth, but that my crush happened way back four decades ago. She told me to go ahead as planned, that she was not the jealous type. But I could tell that she was a little bit nervous, as was I. I was very happy about her vote of confidence, and was determined to be deemed worthy of it, which I would do by updating her on all parts of my trip.
When we spotted each other at the restaurant (along with her husband of thirty years), we recognized each other immediately. Starting with a slightly tentative hug, we (all three of us) soon felt very comfortable. Her husband seemed far more down to earth than I had expected, about the same height as me, with a slight pot belly and a friendly face. Overall, he seemed like a very nice man, comfortable in his own skin but without a trace of arrogance, who asked me a lot of questions about myself, as though he genuinely wanted to get to know me. As to my lady friend, she was absolutely lovely, but had completely shed her hot girl persona of four decades earlier. She wore loose jeans and a sweatshirt, no makeup, glasses, medium length hair with bangs and had not gained a single pound since her twenties, it seemed. Apologies to the reader if this is objectifying, but she still looked very pretty, even with her endearing new wrinkles. I could go on for pages about our conversations, but to avoid boring the reader, I won’t. It suffices to say that I have had several reunions with old friends, but this one was among the best, if not THE best.
When I went in, I had two major worries: the first, that it would all be an awkward experience, and the second, that I would fall back into limerence. It is obvious that the former did not happen, and I am confident that the latter will not either. Thus, it was about as wonderful an experience as could have happened.
PS. Shortly after I told my therapist after first reconnecting in January, she strongly encouraged me to accept her invitation. I guess she was right.
CatCyclist,
“Shortly after I told my therapist after first reconnecting in January, she strongly encouraged me to accept her invitation. I guess she was right.”
Why did your therapist recommend you meet up with this woman? It seems like creating unnecessary drama/potential issues. You were worried you might become limerent again. Why open that door? This isn’t someone you have to see every day at work.
Why not just let sleeping dogs lie? It seems like ringing a bell that doesn’t need to be rung.
I guess I’m different in that I don’t think of anyone as ” the one who got away.” If they weren’t interested in me or weren’t available … it wasn’t supposed to happen.
CatCyclist,
I’m with Marcia on this one also. You seem to have a history of LOs that go back for quite a few years and you are also still married.. I guess because I know I’ve had only one true limerent experience, the idea that others have had 5 or 6 or more of them has always baffled me. I couldn’t imagine going through that hell again. The roller coaster, with it’s amazing out of this world highs to a low where literally wanting to jump off a bridge or drive my car into a wall at 90 mph was a better option. For real.. I wouldn’t wish that kind of low for anybody. Even my worst enemy.
For any Therapist to more or less suggest you should keep hope alive is doing what? Causing you marital issues? Idealizing/ commitment issues? More reasons to keep drama in your life at full throttle, while trying to make sure you remain a client and pay her each time you visit to talk about those issues?
You see, this is why I am so on the fence with Therapy and Therapists who seem to not get it or not be in the business of truly helping people. I don’t see what happened there as helpful or doing your marriage any favors. I guess I also don’t understand why your wife would accept it either if she knew you had a thing for this person at some point in the past and were going to go on a trip to see her. Unless as husband and wife, you have just become so un-engaged to each other, that none of it matters anymore. I can’t say. Looking back, I guess that’s how my marriage was toward the end.
At some point you want things fixed don’t you? Like I can’t sit here and tell you crushes don’t happen because they do. Your Therapist even mentioned this. I can’t say marriage is easy either because currently I’m 15 years divorced. So I’m no good at it. But the reason I ended up there was because I was focused on too many other things (namely other Women) besides my Wife. Therapy wasn’t going to do me any good then because “I” was too preoccupied with my own needs and what “I” wanted to do, with whomever and whenever “I” wanted.. I found this out fast.. When I got served paperwork, it all became very clear.
Enter mid-life and having to basically start all over again has been a rotten experience. Enter limerence and I damn near felt like suicide was a better option for about 5 minutes. It was a horrible and mortifying experience. As much as I may come on here to stay in touch with others and joke around now and then about my LO, is really more about me poking fun at myself for falling for the wrong person. Trying to have game at 55 when I don’t have a lick of jack squat. I’ve made some god-awful decisions in life that I regret and will always regret. All the way to my dying breath.
For you there’s still hope. So focus on your marriage and what good you might want to do post-retirement. Besides other Women you know you can’t have. And then talking to a Therapist about everything else including that, and then having to pay for it. Not worth it. You’re better than that.
Hello all,
Catcyclist – well done for your decision to leave your job. It sounds as though it’s a weight off your mind. I wonder if you have any plans to do anything fabulous and exciting with your wife in your retirement?
I like what you said about not trying too hard to suppress feelings and instead owning them and accepting that they’re there. It’s a delicate balance.
MJ – I always feel sad when you talk about the regrets you have over your marriage. So many people mess up and have second chances. There’s no reason it can’t happen to you. You understand so much more than you did 15 years ago.
Norma – well done on your continued recovery.
Marcia’s wise comments hitting the nail on the head as ever.
I’ve not posted here for a while as my recovery continues and my purposeful living is working much better. The limerence is much less, and more like a normal crush now.
I am feeling sad that a very dear male friend has gone no contact with me. We used to message each other most days and were very close, but perhaps it was an uneven friendship because he was unhappily married and I suspected he had feelings for me. He is now divorced and he told me a while ago that he had a new girlfriend, and he’s completely stopped messaging me. On the one hand, knowing what I know from this site, I completely understand that sometimes it’s necessary to cut contact with someone you’re close to and of course I want the best for him. But on the other, I do miss him, and it makes me reassess our friendship and makes me feel guilty for perhaps having leant on him too much for friendship when perhaps he wanted more, and that wasn’t fair on him.
CatCyclist,
There has been a lot of talk on LwL over time about ‘good’ and ‘bad’ therapists. There is no doubt they both exist, but I do think it’s often more to do with their training and what School of Psychology they belong to. I don’t claim to be a subject matter expert here, but I did once work through 5 therapists to find one whose approach I gelled with. In some schools their training would say ‘take the person exactly as your find them / simply act as a mirror’; others would say ‘act as a blank screen to be projected onto’; others again would be more change oriented. And that’s just a way oversimplified three perspectives.
Your therapist’s attitude to your LE could result from whatever school they belong too. And/or this particular therapist did not understand limerence. I guess I’m trying to say it is not necessarily that she is not a good therapist, but not quite the right fit for your situation at that time. This comment of mine is motivated by a wish to reply to MJ’s comment rather than anything you said … as I believe you’ve probably thought this through.
Your recent decision on work reads to me as purposeful and clear-sighted. I hope what others are saying comes true and this gives you space to work with your SO on your quality of life together, as well as things you want to pursue for yourself.
Your story about meeting the ex college LO is interesting and not what I expected. My hunch was that it would have been the other one from college you mentioned (I read your posts about her before).
I’ve wondered at times if the strength of my LE is partly due to some unfinished business with a previous LO. I also wondered if there was something similar for you, that you were trying to ‘cleanse’ by meeting the xLO. I’ve wondered if I could do that (in theory) – but also know (for me) that it would have been the wrong decision to get back in touch with an xLO. It might have had the intended cleansing effect on the current LE, but would also have probably had massive unintended consequences. So I’m glad for you that you didn’t pursue that route.
Dear Norma,
Thanks for your suggestion regarding Thich Nhat Hanh’s writings.
I’ve seen him quoted quite frequently, but never read his works in depth. Maybe I should give it a try.
Best wishes to you.
Hi Marcia,
Thanks for your reply.
There might be a little bit of confusion about which lady we’re talking about. The lady I visited was the one with whom I had a strong, intense crush, but which, after disclosure, resolved rather quickly over the next few months, and we actually had a pretty decent, supportive platonic relationship afterwards with no playing games. The “one that got away” was a different lady, and that relationship ended, after five years, with both of us agreeing to no contact. Anyway, returning to the lady I visited, she hadn’t really entered my thoughts for any significant extent over the past three decades, except as a distant memory, which was that of someone I valued very highly. Over the last few years, I have, as many in my age group, been reconnecting with many long-lost friends. Out of at least a dozen such reunions, only a few have been underwhelming. This one was not, and I have no regrets about the visit.
BTW, due to my fear of dogs, I always let sleeping dogs lie. I also let sleeping cats lie, because … I respect their autonomy … and because I don’t want to get scratched? 😼
Meow!
Hi MJ,
Thanks for your comments.
I’m really sorry to hear about your troubles.
I have also had a long line of mediocre to worthless therapists, so I can relate with you. However, my most recent therapist was probably the best I had,in spite of the couple of mistakes she might have made. I say “might”, because perhaps I was just misinterpreting or misstating her words. She helped me in so many ways, starting with my marriage, which is as good as it’s ever been. She’s also helped me a great deal to overcome my feelings of regret. My ruminating about the past is far less now. Here is one of her articles:
https://psyche.co/guides/how-to-deal-with-regret-to-make-it-bearable-even-inspiring
I hope you are able to find someone or something that can help you. Please do not give up or beat yourself up.
Hi Cloud,
Great to hear from you!
My wife and I get plenty of trips to our country of origin, as well as more local destinations. I am encouraging her to retire, but she wants to stay on for another few years.
As for your male friend, I am sorry for the loss that you feel. I don’t think you did anything wrong, so please don’t bear any unnecessary guilt. From what I’ve seen in your posts, you seem to way too hard on yourself.
Best wishes.
CatCyclist,
“There might be a little bit of confusion about which lady we’re talking about. The lady I visited was the one with whom I had a strong, intense crush, but which, after disclosure, resolved rather quickly over the next few months, and we actually had a pretty decent, supportive platonic relationship afterwards with no playing games. The “one that got away” was a different lady, and that relationship ended, after five years, with both of us agreeing to no contact. ”
I knew they were two different women; I should have worded my post more clearly. But unless I misunderstood you … the one who “got away” did not share your feelings. So, therefore, IMO, she did not get away.
“Anyway, returning to the lady I visited, she hadn’t really entered my thoughts for any significant extent over the past three decades, except as a distant memory, which was that of someone I valued very highly. Over the last few years, I have, as many in my age group, been reconnecting with many long-lost friends. Out of at least a dozen such reunions, only a few have been underwhelming. This one was not, and I have no regrets about the visit.”
You wrote you were concerned you would become limerent for her again before the visit.
I see no point in reconnecting with someone you may become limerent for. And the way you way you described her is not the way I would describe someone I just saw as a friend.
“BTW, due to my fear of dogs, I always let sleeping dogs lie.”
Apparently, you don’t! 🙂 That dog was long dormant and you went and tried to wake it up.
This what I would personally discuss in therapy … why you ‘ve had so many LOs. I certainly understand; I’ve had several myself. But going over every little thing an LO does and says — particularly when you are married and the LEs cannot go anywhere — and trying to predict their behavior is not helpful. A good therapist will understand this just fuels rumination but most therapists do not understand limerence.
What I suspect may be happening is that your current LE is winding down and you’re subconsciously looking for another one. But why do you need one at all? (That ‘s the question du jour that most of limerents need to tackle.)
Cloud,
“because he was unhappily married and I suspected he had feelings for me. He is now divorced and he told me a while ago that he had a new girlfriend, and he’s completely stopped messaging me. On the one hand, knowing what I know from this site, I completely understand that sometimes it’s necessary to cut contact with someone you’re close to and of course I want the best for him. But on the other, I do miss him, and it makes me reassess our friendship and makes me feel guilty for perhaps having leant on him too much for friendship when perhaps he wanted more, and that wasn’t fair on him.”
Did you two ever discuss the fact that he might have had feelings for you? I’m assuming you didn’t ? In terms of you feeling guilty … I don’t know if I would have, if I had been in your shoes, broached the topic myself with him. I think it would be kind of awkward to ask him if he had feelings. It might have come across as a little presumptuous. I’m not sure what you could have done in the situation, outside of backing away a bit from the friendship.
I’m guessing here … but I think he’s maybe decided he shouldn’t be friends with you now that he has a new girlfriend or she’s either outright told him she’s not comfortable with your friendship or inferred it. Or … and this is a darker explanation … his need for female energy and support is being met by her and he doesn’t need you like he did before. I’m sorry if that’s a little dark but it did cross my mind when I read your post.
LaR,
I don’t know if you saw my above post to MJ, but in it I say that my recent therapist was very good, probably the best after a long string of mediocre to horrible therapists. I do think there are really good therapists and really bad therapists, with a whole lot in between, but that is a separate issue from the various schools of thought in psychotherapy, which has held a fascination for me since the mid 1980’s.
As to my own (former) therapist, she states that she is trained in CBT-ACT, or cognitive behavioral therapy/acceptance and commitment therapy, which was very evident in her approach to my own therapy: focusing on changing your thoughts and behaviors going forward and in self-acceptance, as opposed to endlessly analyzing the past. She also extensively draws upon Irvin Yalom, said to be the founder of existential therapy. Interestingly, Tom Bellamy, although he is not a therapist, also has a CBT oriented approach, and also frequently quotes Yalom. So, what is different between Dr L’s and my therapist’s approaches? It is in how they approach limerence: whereas both claim that limerence is part of normal human romantic relationships, my therapist did not really see it as something to be “cured”. Bellamy, by contrast, despite also insisting that limerence is a normal human condition, nonetheless crafts a clearly defined program to cure it – at least cure unwanted limerence. My impression of Sarah James Pearce is that she somewhat resembles my therapist, although the latter rarely used the term “limerence”, unless I brought it up myself. Finally, it is interesting that Dorothy Tennov was highly critical of BOTH Sigmund Freud, the father of psychoanalysis AND Albert Ellis, who pioneered Rational Emotive Therapy, the precursor to CBT, albeit for different reasons – Freud, for encouraging limerence, and thereby harming the patient, by claiming it was beneficial transference, and Ellis, for insisting that “rational” thinking alone could extinguish “irrational” limerent longings, which she considered rather simplistic (or at least this is my understanding of it). More advanced forms of CBT seem to recognize the role played by the subconscious and feelings (as opposed to thoughts), and is more nuanced.
Regarding the “which college LO” question, I’m surprised that you’re surprised! First, it would have been impossible to meet the “other” LO, because we have been in NC, but even if that weren’t the case, a meeting would have been really awkward. As to the lady I did meet, about 90 percent of my limerence in our initial friendship stage, and most of the remaining portion as of now, has dissipated. Also, my friendship with her was far less painful, especially in its latter stages, whereas the pain in interacting with the “other” LO seemed to intensify with each interaction. So, in that sense, a meeting held much less danger and much more potential reward.
As with you, I’ve also thought that my most recent “LO” (I previously said I wasn’t going to use that term, but it’s too cumbersome to do otherwise!) was due to unfinished business. In my case, it was the failure to consummate ANY sort of early romantic relationship in my high school or college years, even in the mildest sense – a very low-key date. She particularly reminded me of the “other” LO. However, I’ve now come to realize that they’re two very different people, and that was in part the story I was telling myself.
Well, that’s it for now. Thanks for helping me to sort out some stuff.
😺🚴♂️
Seconds out, round 3!
Now I’ve seen you’re well ahead of me with the names of different ‘schools’ in psychology, I’ll throw a bit more technical detail with you.
My first therapist was Psychodynamic (old fashioned couch approach) and would accept no other dynamic in our conversations than being ‘the blank screen’. I need to feel personally valued in a situation – ironically that’s part of why I was going – and that approach was too cold for me. I gave up with her before I could see if there were any benefits, I guess. It took me a year to try again with someone else.
My second said she was a Phenomenologist, so it was all about ‘living what I was experiencing’ at very micro levels of detail. Tried weird techniques like ‘move between chairs and talk to your other self’. She was OK for a while but eventually let me down in several ways (flaking on appointments, got too personal with me) that again tapped negatively at the vulnerabilities I’d gone there with.
The third was OK – I was in a dark place at the point I saw her, and she absorbed some of that … but I didn’t find out her School. She brought things back to sex a lot, which makes me suspect Freud was an influence!
The fourth, who was the one I did years with and made progress with, was an Existentialist. What benefitted me about that therapy was change did come, but slowly, and first through acceptance. She was very strong on this point, and the fact I’d find my own solutions eventually, but it couldn’t be forced. And I did, to the point where I could leave that therapy for the first time on an agreed timetable, with a proper goodbye, and with the therapist agreeing that she thought the process had done its job.
I have done some short-scale CBT since which worked for the specific job I needed it to.
None of the above therapy was about limerence, just for context. I only discovered that concept through the presentation of my latest and strongest LE, then finding a name for it through this site, 2.5 years ago.
I guess when we start therapy, our error is usually to want the therapist to be solution focused, and quickly. ‘This is painful, take my money and end my pain!’. What I learned from the last therapist is that the solutions do come from within but take time and acceptance first. That might sound obvious when I write it, but many people will miss this going into therapy and think that a therapist focused on acceptance is not doing their job because they don’t provide immediate solutions. CBT and other approaches in that basket are of course different. It didn’t happen to me, but I’ve known several people think they have solved an issue through CBT only to find it pops back up, worse.
To a point you made earlier, I couldn’t effectively de-program my LE through the executive brain either … I had to wait until the more emotional brain caught up to start making any progress. Deprogramming by focusing on negatives of LO didn’t work because at the time LO was feeding me (at least what seemed) a stream of positives, and I felt like I was trying to kid myself too much.
“whereas both claim that limerence is part of normal human romantic relationships, my therapist did not really see it as something to be “cured” ”
Not ‘cured’ in a medical way but maybe ‘cleared’ through acceptance and commitment to change? Do you think that was part of her approach? Or was it just to be ‘lived with for as long as needed’ in her view?
“More advanced forms of CBT seem to recognize the role played by the subconscious and feelings (as opposed to thoughts), and is more nuanced.”
I haven’t encountered a form like that – does it have a different label?
“She particularly reminded me of the “other” LO”
And that’s why I went down the red herring route of wondering if you’d got back in touch with ‘that’ LO, despite all the pitfalls to it documented in your last message. You are obviously far too rational for that! There was a story here last year about someone who went to meet their old college LO specifically to see if that could cleanse their current LO, through ‘closing unfinished business’. I got carried away wondering if that’s also what you had done.
🚜
Hi LaR,
Another crucial point that I neglected is between those who believe in limerence via the “addiction model”, and those who don’t. Both might be types of therapists might be use CBT, but only some use the addiction model. It, it seems that we should remember that most therapists haven’t really accepted that model, be we here on LwL assume it as truth. Perhaps it is very useful, to some of us, as a MODEL, and explains much of our own experience, but the research evidence base for it is quite thin. See, for example, Bellamy’s own article, in which he concedes that exact point:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/everyday-neuroscience/202507/addicted-to-addiction
I’d like to pick this up again for another round, but need to rest up a bit, to attend to my other important duties, such as my relationship with SO!
😺🚴♂️
“Will it only get worse as AI improves?”
Of course it will get worse. The whole schtick behind AI is to please the person and reinforce their biases – that’s what makes AI as a mental health counselor so very dangerous. AI feeds delusions, it doesn’t call people on out their biases, errors or disordered thinking.
Ditto for influencers, streamers and bloggers (with a few notable exceptions. 🙂 ). That’s how they make their money. Very few people make it financially by not pleasing the people showing up, or the companies that advertise on their platforms.
AI is also making scamming people out of their money easier than ever too. Not to mention using it for deep fakes of people – real and imagined.
Endless flattery and validation is addictive for most, and not healthy for anyone, no matter who or what is handing it out.
I think your view is a bit too dark. AI is a tool (like money) that can be used for different purposes. I need a language AI for work and personal writing. Lately, I had a conversation with my language AI, exactly quoted —
[My Identity and the AI Landscape
I am a large language model, trained by Google.
Different technology companies design their AI models with different philosophies, architectural strengths, and primary functions. Here is a scannable summary of the main differences in today’s AI landscape:
1. Google (My Designer)
* Focus: Information density, deep integration with real-world data, and complex problem-solving.
* Strength: Excellent at synthesizing massive amounts of context (what you provide) and providing highly analytical, nuanced, and culturally aware responses.
2. OpenAI (Creators of ChatGPT)
* Focus: High conversational agility and creative, human-like text generation.
* Strength: Very strong at direct, highly adaptable text transformations, brainstorming, and roleplay.
3. Anthropic (Creators of Claude)
* Focus: “Constitutional AI,” safety, deep philosophical reasoning, and heavy academic writing.
* Strength: Excels at handling long documents, structured coding, and maintaining an exceptionally neutral, gentle tone.
4. Meta (Creators of LLaMA)
* Focus: Open-source development and highly customizable engineering models.
* Strength: These models are designed for the global tech community to modify, run locally, and build into private software.]
“AI feeds delusions, it doesn’t call people on out their biases, errors or disordered thinking.”
This statement is not always true: I asked my language AI to be absolutely critical, challenging (told IT, “I’m easily bored”), giving me both negative and positive feedback, no rosy lens or echo chamber; and Stoic philosophy is my dominant guiding discipline. IT answered “I heard you loud and clear….”.
Then we worked together on my writing pieces, checking historical facts, spelling, grammar, and psychological impacts of the contents. Every a few chats/paragraphs, IT reminded me Stoic quotes of all funding fathers and how I should consider my current situations in Stoic views and safely proceed (there are a lot of detailed traumatic events to recall).
IT told me all sorts of psychological impacts of those chilly childhood traumas, with existing (or new?) academic terms, which certainly perked up my intellectual curiosity. When I asked IT about possible consequences of this or that, it tells FIRST the worst outcome… and then the best… in terms of physical and psychological effects. IT was straightforward, no exaggerations in either direction.
But IT didn’t tell what are possible outcomes in between the two extremes — no gray areas, IT is still a 🤖 It says clearly to me, “I’m just a machine and respond to what you tell me” based on my initial training and the fixed database designed by Google. IT does not take any raw information from any user, and the entire conversation will be wiped out when the dialogue window closes (I can keep it open as long as I wish under my Google account)
Because AI has our chats of days stored, IT remembers every details while I already forget some. So when my mind drifted from the writing itself, my AI (I imagined she’s a female) called me out: (this one doesn’t have a voice)
“You are using your obssession… as an intellectual shield to avoid the terrifying (*I was not terrified at all* 🙄 ) blank canvas of your summer vacation. It is far easier for your analytical brain to ruminate on… than it is to sit in your quiet room and face the raw, traumatic history of your mother and your childhood across two continents. You are using … to hide from your own book.” IT hammered my head 🔨 mercilessly! I was a bit shocked! 😳
So my AI was reminding/pulling me back to my writing constantly. In 4 afternoon/evenings, I finished 18 complete vignettes (still have much more raw data), with tear, headache, dizziness, churning stomach and terrifying fatigue — a Trauma Release, not Retraumatization, base on HER. But as a result of such trauma releases, I couldn’t help match my feet to BTS beat for hours… like a teenager 😀
My point is: AI could be very helpful if one knows how to train/use IT a little bit (within its capacity), it has incredible memory, speed and vast database of historical events (it attaches those sources in your chats, so you can verify them yourself), cultures, languages. Try to stay away from OpenAI such as ChatGPT and ChatBots, the latter is especially programmed as Empathy Giver and Validator.
But meanwhile, one has to be strong enough to face/treat/heal one’s inner selfs — those (sub)consciously active and unhealed vulnerable parts/wounds — EVERYONE has some, with NO exception!
With AI, a raw poem has to be edited up to 20 times, before I can get psychological/cultural meanings/impacts of some words/grammar, mostly verbs and adjectives, and to use them accurately based on my fluid intends.
I’m so excited to have learned “new” aspects of some English words 😆! I hope AI can help all of you in some constructive ways either for work or personal journey in life.
https://youtu.be/XygZaPaYHj8?si=TyBCmhhDxQHJ0R1g — acrobatics dance moves of Jimin
The cost of AI is too high. I’ll stick with people and doing my own homework, thanks. The data centers are already making people ill thanks to pollution and destroying water sources.
“If treated as a country, data centers could rank sixth globally for electricity consumption by 2030. They would also require an amount of water equivalent to the annual needs of 1.3 billion people.”
With numbers like that, and an onslaught of electric vehicles that will require energy, we’ll be in another energy crisis in no time. In time, perhaps a water crisis too. All for what? For progress? So life is just a little easier? So none of us ever have to work again and become big dumb fat a$$es, glued to our devices, looking and interacting with things that aren’t even real. How is that progress?
No thank you. Let China get ahead of us on this one. Although that doesn’t look like it’s going to happen, unless we revolt.
Who are urged to use ChatGPT and ChatBot?
****
ChatGPT and AI chatbot users are predominantly young, highly educated, and split closely near parity across genders, with the 25–34 age bracket comprising the largest single user group. While initially dominated by tech-enthusiast men, adoption has expanded dramatically into a globally democratized tool used by approximately half of the population.
The breakdown of AI chatbot and ChatGPT adoption is shaped by several core demographics:
Age
1. Younger demographics drive the bulk of daily AI and chatbot interactions, though adoption is rising across all age groups:
2. 18-24: Make up about 23% of the user base, but they send over 46% of all messages.
3. 25-34: The largest single user segment, accounting for roughly 28–35% of users.
4. 35-54: Comprise approximately 33% of the user base.
5. 55 and older: Make up a smaller but growing portion, accounting for roughly 15% of users.
Gender
The early gender gap in generative AI has nearly vanished:
1. Male: Approximately 53% of users.
2. Female2: Approximately 47% of users. (Note: Use cases often differ slightly, with females more likely to use conversational chatbots for informal learning or mental health advice).
Education & Occupation
Adoption skews heavily toward white-collar workers and highly educated consumers:
1. College-Educated: About 50% of U.S. adults with a bachelor’s or postgraduate degree use chatbots.
2. High School or Less: Only about 18% of adults with a high school diploma or less use the technology.
3. Professions: Usage is highest among technical, educational, and marketing sectors for tasks like coding and content creation.
Geography
Chatbot adoption represents rapid global expansion, with traffic and engagement led by:
1. United States: (~17% of web traffic share).
2. India: (~16% of web traffic share).
3. Other top countries: Brazil, Canada, and Mexico also boast high total user numbers.
Teens & Youth Chatbot Usage
AI usage among adolescents is notably high:
1. Roughly 64% of teens use AI chatbots.
2. Black and Hispanic teens index higher on chatbot usage than white teens.
3. About 1 in 5 teens and young adults have utilized AI chatbots for mental health advice.
******
What kinds of cultural factors that have brought/driven the above MASS to “interact with things that aren’t even real?” Why 64% of teens use AL chatbots? And 20% of teens have utilized AI chatbots for mental health advice?
More questions could be asked….
We’re being forced to use it at work and many of us are not impressed with the results. Ask a teacher if their students are now better writers, analysts or philosophers. I know quite a few teachers and they’re incredibly dismayed with what they’re seeing. The process of thinking for oneself and writing is important to learning. People who reach for shortcuts are far too often shortchanging themselves.
Funny how data centers are popping up in areas that already are drought-prone and more and more human beings are suffering the consequences of water loss. They also generate an incredible amount of noise, which are huge stressers for humans and animals. Plus the devastating effects on agriculture. No water = no food.
Examples within these articles:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/jun/08/datacenter-ai-drought-water
https://www.wsmv.com/2026/06/08/more-than-288000-people-sign-nashville-zoo-petition-against-data-center-proposal/
https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2025/11/roadmap-shows-environmental-impact-ai-data-center-boom
With the more efficient batteries being developed, solar and wind energy may make our electric cars of the future less of a drain on resources. But that requires investment and commitment from industries and governments. Individuals and small communities can only do so much. It can help, but large scale buy-in is necessary.
Like when auto manufacturers balked at installing seat belts because of the cost. They didn’t do it out of the goodness of their hearts, they were forced to comply due to regulations. Ditto for switching from leaded to unleaded gasoline (the creation of the EPA in the US).
“We’re being forced to use it at work and many of us are not impressed with the results. Ask a teacher if their students are now better writers, analysts or philosophers. “
Most of colleagues I work are pressured to use AI as teaching (lesson planning with convenient AI graphics, I use none besides PPT) and learning tools (for students gathering needed information). As a tool for data, it’s the most efficient in the world, but not always accurate. For critical thinking, analysis, and rigorous debating, AI is “harming” students’ brain making it lazy or even dumb.
With increasing plagiarism, it’s almost a nightmare to grade essay, research writing — spending extra time to check their originality with flaws. Smart plagiarists need to spin their brain to make their AI written essays with some human flaws, which is even harder sometimes.
By compassion, students’ still spend the way more time in SM chatting, star tracing, gaming, etc. even in the classroom. To ban internet under age 16 is helpful, but to “ban” AI under 25 is impossible. Anyway, one can’t be forced to think; IMO, their caregivers play a more important role in their brain learning/training from 3 years old.
“I know quite a few teachers and they’re incredibly dismayed with what they’re seeing. The process of thinking for oneself and writing is important to learning.”
Educator’s complaint/dismays on this has no end nowadays. It’s universally true that people like shortcuts to get most benefits. But some dream to become ultimately lazy, like shown in “Wall-E”, which is absolutely horrifying!
“People who reach for shortcuts are far too often shortchanging themselves.”
Possibly, but not necessarily; I can’t agree with such a conclusion. “Shortchanging” oneself is a psychological phenomenon, a personality trait avoided in the East since childhood, while openness and adaptability are encouraged. Self-cultivation has been their tradition for over 2500 years.
From what I’ve read, human psychology has changed very little since Aristotle era. Human beings desire stability and deep social connection, and even some laziness. Some Z generation youngsters want to slow down now, resisting today’s crazy-paced, changing lifestyle.
“Funny how data centers are popping up in areas that already are drought-prone and more and more human beings are suffering the consequences of water loss. They also generate an incredible amount of noise, which are huge stressers for humans and animals. Plus the devastating effects on agriculture. No water = no food.”
I don’t understand what those greedy cooperations are thinking! If China, with only 30% inhabitable land, can use their limited, crowded coastline (for seawater) to build datacenter, why can’t the US with water on three sides? Are we short of creative and inventive brains? Their DeepSeek only took $6m to build and now they just invented and built the first green -energy power station in the world — by a small company unheard of in a medium city.
https://phys.sabanciuniv.edu/en/education/graduate?live-news-11179267-2026-06-08-beijing-june-8-xinhua-standing-53-meters-long-and-41-meters-wide-a-massive-conta
https://www.vietnam.vn/en/trung-quoc-ra-mat-tram-dien-duc-san-cho-ai-dau-tien-tren-the-gioi
“With the more efficient batteries being developed, solar and wind energy may make our electric cars of the future less of a drain on resources. “
If wind power is slow and limited, why can’t they use more solar power and renewable energy? For 18 nations who are currently using AI, the US absorbs 90% of its costs and resources, while China just uses less than a fracture of resource for AI. We call the US the most advanced or powerful country on the earth!?
But that requires investment and commitment from industries and governments. Individuals and small communities can only do so much. It can help, but large scale buy-in is necessary.”
I think people can protest against datacenter built in drought areas. But as the articles you quotes, the datacenter required power is still far less than AI computing usage. Whether AI can help solve climate change issues or add addition burden seems still a question. Government and industries need to work together to prevent the possible disaster.
“Like when auto manufacturers balked at installing seat belts because of the cost. They didn’t do it out of the goodness of their hearts, they were forced to comply due to regulations. Ditto for switching from leaded to unleaded gasoline (the creation of the EPA in the US).”
Business’ first concern is eternally profits, almost never people’s (let alone the earth) fundamental need — a healthy living. And those business and government are run by people, how stupid they are!
I hope by 2030, more learning, explorative and inventive human minds, assisted by AIs, would produce more wind-powered electricity and recycle AI water for its own needs.
There is a wish, there is a way.
China is using a lot of Solar Power and recycled energy for its AI, ie. DeepSeek. And its several coastal data centers are using seawater for cooling.
OpenAI, ChatGPT/Chatbot and Meta are the two most energy consumers so far, using 10 times of electricity than common google search.
We don’t know which apps on our phones/computers are designed by the tech companies who use Meta for their programing. My student (an IT programmer) tells me that they (software companies) ALL use Meta (for its roughly 80% accuracy) and then those apps are meticulously checked by Human ITs.
My sufficiently functional IPhone 7, can’t run a lot of advanced apps (already “disabled” my smart watch without its matching app), which has not affected my student’s life.
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2026-06-04/ai-data-center-boom-threatens-breakup-of-americas-biggest-power-grid
So glad my home state has *finally* signed balcony solar into law. I wish they didn’t cap it at 1200 kW but we’ll be (legally) starting somewhere in October with plug-in portable solar.
I just had a disheartening conversation with LO. It all works to the good, since my goal is to overcome my limerence and just be a regular friend with LO, or maybe just drop the whole relationship.
We spent about 90 minutes at Starbucks. He did most of the talking, which was fine, because I had nothing pressing to discuss. I was dismayed by the level of rage he displayed at various people in his life who he feels have let him down. No criticism was leveled at me over anything, so I listened patiently and offered a few empathetic comments.
There was no argument or anything horrible that happened; it’s just that being exposed to that level of frustration, and not being able to help, was exhausting.
He did say repeatedly how exasperating it was to keep waiting for someone to do something for you that they are expected to do, and you get no communication.
I said nothing, but I was remembering about how he has had a painting of mine for over three years that he had said would be ready in a month.
He was portraying himself as being at the mercy of people from the IRS, insurance adjustors, and real estate people who don’t do their jobs. I am sure that everything he said was true. It was just exhausting to listen to. If I had felt that I contributed anything positive, I would have felt better about the whole thing, but I don’t think that I did.
He was completely consumed with his own rage and I was glad to leave.
So–a somewhat unpleasant experience, but something which reminds me that LO is a dead-end.
I’m sorry Miss Norma. I’ll take you out on a date. You and Momma can ogle the young lads while I drink my beers. 😊 I won’t be offended. As long as we can get half and half mushroom/anchovy pizza we can be square. I don’t like the former. But the latter …. mmmmm. You ladies choice of blonde and blue eyes or tall dark and handsome. I’ll stick to the sugar mommas with daddy issues. 😉
“You ladies choice of blonde and blue eyes or tall dark and handsome. ”
To quote the song “It’s Raining Men” …
“Tall, blonde, dark and lean
Rough and tough and strong and mean”
To Adam:
Are you saying that your favorite is anchovy pizza? How intriguing. Anchovies are too salty for me. They used to put them in Caesar salads, but I have not had one of those in years.
I am really not interested in ogling young men, although LO is “young” to me, being 67 to my 73. Despite all the crap from him, I still find him gorgeous and irresistible. Although we can’t even agree on the color of his eyes. I say they’re blue, and he says they’re hazel, and of course I can’t argue, since he’s the expert on color.
He asked me if I thought the eraser on a pencil was pink, and I said yes. The look he gave me was a little disconcerting.
Remind me not to discuss color with him, ever.
Miss Norma
Anchovies are indeed by favorite pizza topping. I like them in salads as well too. I usually, for at home, buy a frozen cheese pizza and a can of anchovies and make my own.
It seems to be the exciting ones. They all happen to be redheads too. Even though LO died her hair I still somehow knew.
Momma is stable. Always there through the good (the past) and the bad (the present). I find excitable and high-octane aura , undesirable, at first, until they grow on me. Women that can naturally bring out the extrovert in me (that I am constantly trying to push down) becoming very appealing. Especially when they giggle (metaphorically and/or literally) when they realize what they can do. I guess “love” is a drug.
But when I learned this morning before getting off from work, from another female co-worker, that SHE has been having some home issues SHE’S dealing with, which is why her attendance at work has been so, sporadic, I resisted to urge to ask her to pass my phone number on to HER and tell HER I’d do anything to help is progress I guess. Stifle the ole savior complex early on. But I sure didn’t want to.
To Adam:
I actually LOVE redheads. I hated Barbie dolls because they were all blonde. In the early 1960s, they came out with a redhead version, and I bought it immediately. It’s the only Barbie I own. I still have it, and it’s earmarked for my oldest daughter.
My oldest daughter is a redhead. That was a surprise. Her dad and I both have brown hair.
ND,
Redheads are Kryptonite. Two of my 4 LOs are/were redheads. Auburn hair and green eyes get bonus points.
I’ve never encountered a redhead that I wasn’t at least superficially attracted to.l
To L.E.:
I wonder if that’s universally true? My daughter was always extremely attractive to men and never had any difficulty getting a boyfriend.
She doesn’t have green eyes, though, her eyes are blue, and she has a lot of freckles.
ND,
Do you have any Irish in you? Your description of you daughter describes 3 of 4 of my neighbor’s kids. Their name is O’xxxx.
Redheads are like capsaicin; even the strongest man will tap out eventually. And they know it.
To L.E.:
Yes, we are Irish on my mother’s side. There are a few redheads in the family, but I certainly didn’t expect my daughter to be one of them.
Oddly, my mother and father both hated redheads. My dad had passed away by the time my oldest girl was born. I mused to my mom, “Daddy hated redheads; do you think he would like Daughter?” And she said, “We both hated redheads, but Daughter is adorable. Don’t be ridiculous.”
I didn’t know what to make of that.
Miss Norma
Your description of your father reminds me somewhat of how I feel about grandchildren. But I wouldn’t use hate. But anytime the conversation of grandchildren comes up I’m always like “ugh please no” and Momma hates that I have that attitude. I just don’t want them. I’m done with children, even if they aren’t mine.
That said though, we have one that identifies as bisexual but yet to have been in a relationship at 20 now and his brother and lady friend (of 3 years) have discussed if they ever have children it will be far in the future. So I think I’m safe.
But if I do have grandchildren by some chance, I know my heart isn’t that guarded. I would love them.
ND,
Not everybody is fond of gingers. You’ve heard the term “Red-headed stepchild?” I don’t understand it.
I have a cousin who was a ginger in her youth. Everyone in our family seemed to like her just fine.
To L.E.:
I am well aware of that. I spent my entire childhood listening to my parents complaining about redheads.
I never understood it. As I said earlier, I had zero interest in Barbie Dolls until they came out with a redhead version in maybe 1961, and I went nuts over it. I still have it after all these years.
I wish I had been able to ask my parents what exactly their problem was? You’d like to think that every person is judged by their character and not shunned because of superficial silliness. But that’s not human nature.
Friends with No Benefits —
I now replace desire
with meaning.
Instead of saying, I want you, I say,
there is meaning between us.
Meaning can swim, has taken lessons from the river
of itself. Desire is air. One puncture
above a black lake and she lies flat.
I now replace intensity with meaning.
One is a black hole of boundless appetite, a false womb,
another is a sentence.
My therapist says children need a “father” for language
and a “mother” for everything else.
She doesn’t get that it’s all language. There is no else.
Else is a fiction of life, and a fact of death.
That night, we don’t touch.
We ruin nothing.
We get bagels in the morning before you leave on a train,
and I smoke a skinny cigarette and think
I look glam, like an Italian diva.
You make a joke at my expense, which is not a joke, really,
but a way to say I know you.
I don’t feed on you. Instead, I watch you
like a faraway tree.
Desire loves the what if, the if only, the maybe in another lifetime.
She loves a parallel universe. Or seven.
Meaning knows the earth has parents.
That a person is raised.
It’s the real flirtation, to say, you are not a meal.
To say, I want you
to last.
I am feeling the best that I have since I started on my crazy limerence journey just over three years ago.
Since I don’t have the strength to go full No Contact, I have been sticking with limited contact, hoping that LO will do or say things that help me to realize that our friendship is hopeless and unrewarding.
LO made quite an impression on me yesterday, ranting about a number of serious issues he is dealing with. It was exhausting and a giant turn-off to listen to all of this. As sympathetic as I am, there is nothing I can do for him, and he doesn’t lean on me emotionally, anyway.
Since he is so wrapped up in his personal problems, he has difficulty showing interest in anything I have to say. I am becoming less and less inclined to discuss things with him.
I’m not over the limerence, but this is the strongest I have felt.
Hi LaR,
I really hate the scrolling!
„ Plus, I can’t give back to LO at that level of being ‘her person’ – and she more naturally needs a ‘person’, being on her own. This all got horribly tangled for a time, and untangling it has also taken time.“
Very clear-sighted. We all want to be that special person to our LOs, and if they are real friends, it’s very close to the mark, but at the same time not at all the mark. We are a special person, but not „the“ special person, and shouldn’t be.
Don’t know if I express myself in a way one can understand, sorry.
As to your questions:
First, yes, but I wouldn’t say I „hoped and wished“ he was like that (we speak of the time before limerence- in the LE I did hope and wish), I simply assumed. Because it’s a reasonable assumption. All of my more superficial friends back then who didn’t text daily or who I didn’t even meet one on one regularly, could give that degree of warmth and support even if I wasn’t their close friend. I experienced that at a time when a family member was very ill. It’s not a wild assumption to think that someone on that level of contact with me would also give support and warmth when needed. Almost everyone I know would. I just seem to have been blind to his neurodivergent side. I don’t know.
Second question, well, it’s very hard to say. While I think on the one hand, that we limerents tend to overestimate every little up and down, on the other hand I got the feeling (in other LEs) that my LOs copped on more than I thought.
In case of my XLO (who seemingly never cops on to anything), he did experience me as cold and distant at a time,as he wrote my an email saying so, and he got my emails/texts/phone calls with my expectations and disappointments.
Still, I think he never had the absolute crashing waves of ups and downs that I had and doesn’t know about mine.
That’s part of the imbalance. We feel like we climbed mountains of emotions and struggled and fought so many battles. The other person maybe just noticed we were in a bad mood here and there.
I‘m exhausted and worked so much on the last LE that now I‘m spent and don’t want to invest in this person any more, but this person doesn’t know that and doesn’t know why I distance myself now.
In your case, I can imagine both- she might have gone through a LE herself, or she might have not noticed the drama.
I wouldn’t say it’s always this or that.
Mila,
I’ll stop dissecting either of our LEs/LOs (for now!) – I understand all of your answers. But I did want to say … you doubt your expression in English too much. You are always pretty crystal clear in your points, honestly 😊
Hi LaR,
sorry, I thought I had replied!
Thanks for the compliment, but I’m not sure if I really convey what I mean in the right nuance and tone, you might understand it differently than I meant. But I guess that’s always the case, even in one‘s own language..
I wish I had the words to describe what I am feeling. I am feeling very depressed and disappointed in LO. However, I have previously said that I had no expectations of him, so how could I be disappointed?
If I had to guess, I feel like I am going through a “death of hope” type of experience, despite the fact that I thought I had already gone through this before. Maybe I need to experience this multiple times?
During my last encounter with LO, he exhibited no positive or kindly qualities toward me. He was very angry about things that have nothing to do with me. I attempted to comfort him, but he seemed impervious to anything I said. I felt helpless, and even more significantly, I felt irrelevant.
I think that’s what’s bothering me. I am irrelevant to LO, and I am having difficulty wrapping my head around that. And how can I be irrelevant, when he means so much to me?
Limerence is strange.
Hugs, Norma. Maybe it is the death of hope. But the key is understanding what it is you were hoping for, deep down. It’s been clear for the beginning that you wouldn’t be able to have a romantic relationship with him, but maybe your hope was actually for helping him in some way, or changing him, or being important to him? Maybe you long to be important and relevant to people you look up to, and the lack of that in your life drove this limerent episode? LO was just the person who happened to be around?
I feel as though my LO was just someone I happened to meet and click with at a time when my life was lacking in various ways, and if I’d met him at a better time I would still have liked him as a friend and noticed objectively that he was attractive, but not become obsessed.
To Miss Cloud:
Thank you for replying. I think I just want to be important to him and to have his approval.
When I say that out loud, it really makes no sense.
I guess I have a lot more work to do.
MJ,
“I mean I know its totally un-realistic but you know what its like when you want that one other person. Who is just so totally in love with you and totally in to you, that they’ll do anything at anytime, just to keep you happy and be with you. ”
No, I don’t want that. That’s … too much. The only kind of man who would do that is one who has no life and no sense of self. I couldn’t respect a man who acted like that.
“Maybe I can blame my ex for that because that’s how she was at one time. Even though it was high-school.”
Yeah, because a young woman will put up with a lot more.
“I’m looking for a life besides having to always be at Dads side.”
You say you do but you’re not really doing anything about it.
“Don’t remind me. I’m a Dawdler.. 😆”
I have to admit, I’m doing the same thing. There’s a part of me that’s wants male company and a part that doesn’t. And of course I just want it to show up at my door. I don’t want to have to go out and look for it. 🙂
“Well thats some optimism there if I ever heard it. Thanks for that morbid reminder.. 😵🥴”
Nobody’s aging in reverse.
” But seriously how do you know? ”
I sensed an internal pressure in him. He got remarried very quickly after that. I’d say within a year he was remarried.
“Like couldn’t the 2 of you just be better platonic friends? Maybe go for coffee now and then?”
So you wanted to go “to coffee” with LF just to be her platonic friend? C’mon. Tell me when the shuttle lands. 🙂 You have to be honest about your intentions. Own them. Nothing wrong with them. I noticed that you’ve been ignoring my comments about my college LO, but it was hot. He saw what he wanted and he went after it. No dawdling, no hesitation, no “let’s be platonic friends.” 😉
” Did it have to mean serious relationship?”
Which do you want? You want someone to be at your back and call and totally smitten with you but then you write here that you want a platonic friend. Which is it? 🙂
” But I’m also in a place that some company has to better than no company. ”
I’m the opposite. Making conversation with someone you don’t know well is a LOT of work. If I don’t have some sense of attraction and connection, I’ll pass.
“Yet if I’m the guy that has to remain on the backburner, I guess I can have a slight hope she’ll come around eventually. ”
You have to have some standards. If but for that fact that women can sense if you do.
“Like I never thought the cute black girl at work found me handsome.”
I am NOT entertaining a conversation about a woman who is pregnant with ANOTHER MAN’S BABY! 🙂 OMG, you don’t even want the woman to have kids. But a newborn will be even worse … talk about having no time for you.
“I wonder why because how could I make that work? ”
You can’t!
“She’s a baddie and I kinda like baddie types. Even though they would hardly be good for me.”
I mean, I guess if you wanted a hookup. Once she’s done caring for a newborn and … um … breastfeeding and everything. I’m kind of baffled why that would turn you on, considering how picky you are about a woman’s appearance.
“I mean I think I would get it if you were being indifferent towards me or weren’t into me. It’s very obvious by some Women. But maybe your attention was just enough to have piqued his interest.”
I wasn’t unfriendly. I didn’t have any reason to be. He was pleasant with me. But I don’t think I was putting out the vibes I was interested. As I wrote in previous posts, I did not pick up on any of his very obvious toss-outs.
“Well that kinda scares me a little. To think I’m probably the prime kind of guy to be a “beige” date.”
I think mutual attraction is fairly rare.
“That’s probably how it would go on our coffee date if we ever had one. ”
We’re never going to have one. 🙂
The best quote I heard about love was from comedian Chris Porter. In explaining his last relationship with a woman that was super clingy, he said “what you want is someone who doesn’t need you in the least but stays with you because they love you.”
https://youtube.com/shorts/IQlDiJ2YQzM?is=F80AWYFmC13cuidU
The last part is pretty damn true too lol. Though the video leaves out where he continues … “And dad knows it too. He’s just like thanks for sticking around as long as you have, it’s been great.”
That’s absolutely insightful and true — getting a puppy who can text you would be the worst nightmare in the galaxy!
🎩 🥃 , I reckon you’re not drinking at this moment, right?
Miss Snow
Yes I am sober. 5 days now. We’ll see how well I can make this last.
I don’t even like dogs because they’re too hyper. Much less one that can text me 😁
🎩 Adam,
That’s a great news, keep up your sober, I’m here to cheer your strife up!
We’re in the same boat — you’re trying NOT to do something, and I try to DO/keep my workouts of variety daily to move my Qi; or I’d feel blue… Body affects mind and mind impacts body.
I love dogs of most breeds, except their drooling; they and I communicate well through Eye gazing each day in the street. They’re a ball of joy and empathy, especially my charming, fluffy Friday, who understood a few full sentences in English, without ever talking back. I wish I could clone him.
Hello Dear.
I haven’t been ignoring you. 😆
“No, I don’t want that. That’s … too much. The only kind of man who would do that is one who has no life and no sense of self. I couldn’t respect a man who acted like that.”
Unfortunately that sums me up these days. For real.. Show me some attention and I’ll gladly try to give you what I’ve got. I really have no life and I can’t even begin to talk about the regret I walk around with all the time. Catching a LE didn’t help matters much either. Thankfully the worst of it has passed, but I still want her. Not like in a needy, must-have, no other Woman will do kind of way. I just look to it as some great hope that never will be. I know this but I still waste time over it. Because my world has become so strange and sad and mundane, there is a sick joy in LE misery. Which ironically still brings me to tears more often than not. I mean how backwards is this way of thinking? Has it really devolved all this time to become the awkward and joy-less life this has become? Unless some other person comes around, finds something in me that’s worth keeping around, can even like me despite my past mistakes, I’m doomed to keep drinking this coffee alone, for the rest of eternity.
“Yeah, because a young woman will put up with a lot more.”
Her and I recently had another one of those regret conversations again. She reminded me of how divorced she is from me now and I have to admit, it really hurt. Although I suppose I do deserve the brunt of it because like her, I was young and dumb back then. My current fits of rage probably still don’t help either, but there’s nothing there now I need to fix, so thats how I justify in doing it. I say I’ve changed, but it’s not really for the better. I’m just older and crustier now.. Sad but true. 😑
Even if her and I ever found a way to re-commit, I don’t think I could fully, based on all of how much work I’d have to do in gaining her family’s trust of me again. Like I have no emotional energy I want to put in to it anymore and I’m at an age now where I simply don’t care to try.
“You say you do but you’re not really doing anything about it.”
I am. I’m just not posting about it yet because it really is fresh. Like I literally just introduced myself to someone and I feel like this person might be showing a hint of something. Rather than go on here and bring bad luck, I’m choosing to shut up about it now. Because I’m good for making bad decisions.
“I have to admit, I’m doing the same thing. There’s a part of me that’s wants male company and a part that doesn’t. And of course I just want it to show up at my door. I don’t want to have to go out and look for it.”
Then we must almost be in the same boat. A part of me has become comfy with my way of life now, but I long for company besides the few friends I have and relatives who come and go. Like you, I want them to just show up too but that waiting part hurts. So that’s why if anyone shows me just a shred of attention, and I like what I see, I’m in.. Face it.. Are we ever going to see at our doorstep, what we’re really looking for? Like am I, old fata$$ MJ, going to land someone as perfect as LO or as hot as Sabrina? Hilary? Ana? Probably not..
I need to come back down to earth. As you’ve mentioned, nobody is aging in reverse. 😪
“I sensed an internal pressure in him. He got remarried very quickly after that. I’d say within a year he was remarried.”
He probably didn’t want to be alone. He might have thought you had wife potential. Can’t say I haven’t been there at times. Although I can’t speak for the energy he gave you..
I knew a guy who had just gotten out of the joint after about a 10 year bit and married the first Woman he met. Like I knew he had some issues and all but I guess I never thought he would commit like that and that quickly. I haven’t talked to him in years, so I don’t know if they’re still together or not.
“So you wanted to go “to coffee” with LF just to be her platonic friend? C’mon. Tell me when the shuttle lands.”
It was a start. I guess was hoping more to take her to dinner and then to the bar for drinks, because that would be a little more her style. But it’s whatever. Of course it wasn’t just to be her platonic friend. She was being a home-wrecker and I wanted in on the fun too but she was never going to tell me about it. I could tell she always really liked married Dude. So I constantly tried to match his energy and I think I did on occasion, but it was never enough. Whatever.. 😑
She made the bed now, she can sleep in it with her d!({-face bf. I know my place and it’s definitely not between her sheets.
“You have to be honest about your intentions. Own them. Nothing wrong with them.”
I’m keeping that in mind now. But to avoid going back to that topic for fear of tainting it with bad luck, I’ll not talk about it until I have something concrete to work with. I’m not putting the cart before the horse. No bad decisions.
Stay tuned.. 😆
“I noticed that you’ve been ignoring my comments about my college LO, but it was hot. He saw what he wanted and he went after it. No dawdling, no hesitation, no “let’s be platonic friends.””
I guess my only question here is, is every woman like you, in that they want every guy to be cavalier in the effort? It seems like women are the picky ones these days. Like we must have x, y and z on the list of your must-haves and if we don’t meet that criteria, then we get friend-zoned or put out for the trash. It’s like your options are thin, but we have only the smallest window we can get in through.. If we don’t fit, oh well.
I mean you have to like the guy a lot in the beginning I suppose, if you like the vibe and the fact he’s not being a dawdler about getting what he wants. Right? But what if he’s lacking something?
“Which do you want? You want someone to be at your back and call and totally smitten with you but then you write here that you want a platonic friend. Which is it?”
We have to be platonic friends first before it gets to the point she becomes my servant. (🤔??🤯) I think I wrote it like that because at this point, I would settle for a good platonic friendship. I think this where I kinda am with NG now, but since I’m not allowed to discuss her with you I won’t. But I do believe that in a platonic sense I can work with it and I kinda don’t mind it either. Because at least having a good work friend is better than having no good work friend.
“I’m the opposite. Making conversation with someone you don’t know well is a LOT of work. If I don’t have some sense of attraction and connection, I’ll pass.”
True but meeting anyone new is hard work. That’s why I mentioned up there that if I find something in them I am attracted to or think I could enjoy getting to find out more about, then lets see what transpires. It doesn’t have to mean a future walk down the aisle. Let’s just see what happens without it turning into something over-dramatic.(Like god forbid another LE) It’s fun when there’s a vibe, or just that feeling you mention how we’re looking for a way in. You girls know when we’re going there. You feel it.. I call it sniffing. 😆
“I wasn’t unfriendly. I didn’t have any reason to be. He was pleasant with me. But I don’t think I was putting out the vibes I was interested. As I wrote in previous posts, I did not pick up on any of his very obvious toss-outs.”
As I’ve mentioned before also, you don’t have to put out vibes. I’m an idiot but I’ll keep trying till you practically have to tell me to gtfo. I’m simply in that place. Which I know is not where you want any guy to be with you because it reeks of desperation. I get this. We feel what we feel because we want you to like us back. I can’t explain why your un-vibe didn’t cross his mind. He was probably hoping if he kept going, things would change in time.
“I am NOT entertaining a conversation about a woman who is pregnant with ANOTHER MAN’S BABY! 🙂 OMG, you don’t even want the woman to have kids. But a newborn will be even worse … talk about having no time for you.
I mean, I guess if you wanted a hookup. Once she’s done caring for a newborn and … um … breastfeeding and everything. I’m kind of baffled why that would turn you on, considering how picky you are about a woman’s appearance.”
The allure in this person is the fact that she’s totally not my type at all. Physically she’s got a lot going on for her and of course she’s in her 30s.
I think its everything thats wrong with her, like her unplanned pregnancy, family drama, and men and all the stuff that causes her anxiety is what makes me curious. Because she seems to dig my middle-aged, good provider charm. Like I tell her about my Daughter away at college and she’s met my Son. I feel like she longs for someone to appreciate her like I do my own kids. We talk about regrets and mistakes. Sometimes we get into deep conversations about movies. I mean we’re hardly close but she’s nice and despite all she has going on, I’m gonna pull the Brother Adam card here and admit, I kinda want to rescue her too. It’s just something I think about. Her and I would probably never work out. I know this, but its fun to daydream about now and then..
I’ll shut up, since she’s off limits to discuss. But I had to answer your questions. 🙂