Another month has passed, meaning it’s time for another visit to the LwL virtual coffeehouse.
To start the conversation this month, I want to talk about something that is coming up in my email inbox more and more these days: limerence for people that the limerent doesn’t know in real life.
The term parasocial relationship has gone mainstream in recent years, thanks largely to the massive increase in such one-way connections enabled by the creator economy, and the emergence of influencers, streamers, and – *cough* – bloggers as a new class of quasi-friends.
But, the idea is illusory relationships is much older of course.
Celebrities have always had devoted fans who sometimes struggled to separate fantasy from reality, it’s just that nowadays there are a lot more celebrities and they are a lot more accessible.
When someone livestreams their life in detail, talks about their dreams and trials, shares intimate thoughts, or just shows up every day as a source of familiar “online company”, it’s inevitable that we will feel more connected to them than to a famous film star.
MrBeast – someone quite familiar with attention-getting – commented a little while ago about a charity football match he took part in, where the streamers and YouTuber stars got much bigger cheers from the crowd than the “A list” celebrity guests.
Parasocial relationships are shifting focus from aloof celebrities, to more everyday people chatting directly to their fans.
This creates a fertile opportunity for limerence.
Over the last few months, I’ve heard about all different degrees of parasocial limerence.
Some limerents fall for celebrity LOs, some for local musicians and artists who they get a bit closer to, some become limerent for Onlyfans models, and some – perhaps most dystopian of all – become limerent for AI LOs.
In this last category are both AI “girlfriends” that link a pretty cyber-woman to a flattering chatbot, and limerents who train ChatGPT to impersonate a real-world LO so they can carry on a fantasy conversation with them.
A lot of hope and energy (and money) can be poured into these parasocial limerent objects.
In many cases, there is also a double-addiction aspect to it.
Limerence can become an addictive natural high, but that’s even more likely to happen if it’s coupled to erotic stimuli, arousal, and/or social reward (Chatbots are very good at making you feel heard and understood).
So, that’s the topic for discussion in this edition of coffeehouse.
Have you ever experienced parasocial limerence?
What do you think are the motivating forces?
Will it only get worse as AI improves?
What do we think?
Great topic DrL.
I’m not really into the whole influencer culture, but the issue of “AI LOs” has been discussed a bit in this community before. Some have ventured the opinion that it’s a safer way to navigate an LE. I guess it is in some ways, as it doesn’t drag another person into it.
But I know a few people who are literally giving their lives over to AI, and it’s not going well. One has gone literally mad through it – thrown away his wife, home and job in the space of a year. One talks to it constantly – like we can be having a coffee and he wants AI to be like a third person in the conversation. The one I’m most concerned about is the one who says less about it. I’m pretty sure he has an AI girlfriend. The last thing he said to me about it was how he found AI more empathetic than any human being.
It all feels dystopian to me. Some say it’s just a step on from whatever the previous form of technology was, but to me it feels like something much worse.
Hi, LaR:
Could you elaborate about your one friend? The one who threw away his wife and job? How is he even functioning?
Hi Norma,
I’m afraid I can’t help because I don’t know. He was a work colleague and not a close friend. He seems to have disappeared off the grid since he left work late last year (sacked). It wouldn’t surprise me if he has been sectioned, or will be. He was getting to the point where he was making decisions that put his and others’ welfare at risk, driven by AI.
To LaR:
That is awful. Something like that could happen to anyone.
I am imagining having a chatbot which looks like LO, except he smiles a lot and laughs at my jokes. I’d never leave the house.
You could keep all the bits you like about LO and get rid of all the bits you don’t like. It doesn’t bear thinking about, does it?
But LEs are sustained by uncertainty. If AI-LO always behaved predictably nicely, where is the jeopardy in that?
And how’s this for an extra thought… What when these robot LOs stop being chatbots inside the internet, and start being actual, physical robots capable of, er, actual, physical things?!
„What when these robot LOs stop being chatbots inside the internet, and start being actual, physical robots capable of, er, actual, physical things?!“
There‘s an episode of „Black Mirror“ on this subject, I think the first episode of season 2.
Mila,
I vaguely remember that – I shall have to watch it again. A lot of what Black Mirror predicted is scarily accurate, isn’t it?
Norma,
“Something like that could happen to anyone”
Yes, but it doesn’t happen overnight. There should be warning signs and someone to see and intercept them – there were signs with this guy. He’s a super intelligent guy and had family and friends around him of similar intellect – how someone couldn’t spot it and help him, i just don’t understand.
To LaR:
Above, you pointed out that LE is sustained by uncertainty. I know Dr. Tom has said the same thing multiple times.
I struggle with this concept. There is zero uncertainty in my relationship with LO. He’s gay and is absolutely NOT interested in me as anything other than a friend.
I don’t feel the least bit uncertain. My feelings for him are completely inexplicable.
So I don’t know how this would translate into an AI version of LO, since I can’t see where I am thriving on uncertainty?
To LaR:
This is in regard to your acquaintance who has fallen into AI hell.
It’s possible that friends and family DID try to help him. People are powerless to do much if a person is hell-bent on certain behaviors.
He will serve as a terrible warning to the rest of us.
Norma,
Re uncertainty, I get the bit about how he’s gay and you always knew it was going nowhere.
But isn’t there something there that sometimes he’s nice to you, other times not? So a sort of uncertainty about how he’ll act? And then thinking ‘if I just do everything right, he’ll act nice’. Of course that’s actually out of your control – and I think you are far enough through now that you don’t think in that way anymore.
To LaR:
I guess there is some uncertainty as to how he’s going to act.
I just know I get a huge charge out of being with him, even though I know the relationship is going nowhere. Unless he’s really unpleasant, I usually have a worthwhile experience spending time with him.
Luckily some of that is subsiding, but it’s still a force to be reckoned with. Some of the things that used to enchant me, are now starting to get boring.
ND,
“Unless he’s really unpleasant, I usually have a worthwhile experience spending time with him.”
How is it worthwhile? You’ve written repeatedly that he hogs the conversation and mostly talks about himself, he doesn’t remember the things you’ve told him about your life and your other friends and he is kind of materialistic and shallow (about his house, etc).
I’m just talking about as a friend … what does he bring to the table?
To LaR:
Just being in his presence does something to me. Sitting next to him makes me feel alive. And of course his hugs are electric.
As corny as that sounds, I can’t come up with a better answer. The limerence seems to be stronger than all of my irritation and sad feelings.
All the things you say are true. But the intoxication doesn’t go away. I have noticed that there is a decrease in the intensity of my feelings, combined with periods of actual boredom, at times. So that’s progress.
His home is being re-listed imminently. The new agent wants to market directly to European buyers, since one of the houses looks like a French chateau and the other one looks like a Spanish cottage.
Nobody around here seems to want such an odd white elephant property. Might as well open it up to a worldwide market?
Once it’s sold, I will never see him again. He’ll move out of state and he’s terrible about keeping in touch.
Norma,
Well there you are – an AI bot of him wouldn’t be able to give electric hugs.
I don’t mind that you addressed me in the reply, but the last question came from Marcia, just to let you know.
I know you can’t seem to bring yourself to cut off contact by any of the methods DrL suggests (I’m not judging – I am equally bad at that). At least you have the prospect of his house selling as an end point on the horizon, so you know it won’t be like this into infinity.
Right – I’m off to create my LO in chatGPT
(I am 100% kidding. The real one is quite enough work!)
Noted. Apologies to LaR and Marcia.
I get confused easily.
This is terrifying. I got goosebumps reading this article, and not the good kind.
I wonder how a person would ever be able to tear oneself away from a kindly, empathetic chatbot?
My LO’s saving grace is that he is flaky and irritable. Thanks to his unpleasant qualities, the limerence is slowly going away.
I want as little to do with AI as possible.
Sarah Conner watching you make an AI LO. 😒
Since I‘m already posting a lot although I said I wouldn’t any more 😆, I‘ll get back to Lost in Space‘s suggestion and ask him (hoping that he might check the coffeehouses from time to time) how everything is going for him, if his SO passed her exams and what her future plans are…
Sorry Dr L, I don’t have wisdom to share on the subject of this coffeehouse. While I can get little crushes on actors, musicians or sportsmen, and while I sometimes ask ChatGPT for a supportive message😆, it would never develop in limerence or obsession. I need some real communication and also some kind of reciprocation to get my inner limerent devil going.
Mila,
“While I can get little crushes on actors, musicians or sportsmen, and while I sometimes ask ChatGPT for a supportive mssage😆, it would never develop in limerence or obsession. I need some real communication and also some kind of reciprocation to get my inner limerent devil going.”
I was limerent for male celebrities when I was younger. Most definitely. I had a few, from about ages 11 through the teen years, I was obsessed with.
But as an adult … yes, I would need IN PERSON interactions (I could not become limerent for someone I met on a site and just messaged/texted) and I would need to feel there was some level of reciprocation. And genuine reciprocation. Not someone like a male exotic dancer (that’s the only thing I could come up with off the top of my head) who just wants my money. Or a male host at a restaurant who has to be nice.
The AI thing … creeps me out.
Absolutely same here!
As to Colin Firth, I seem to have some research to do and watch some films, not rely on my opinion on „Bridget Jones“..
But I suspect I wouldn’t change my mind about his attractiveness to me personally. You can have him, Marcia!;)
Isn’t it interesting how the glimmer triggers are very individual and different even in such celebrity crush stuff.
Mila,
“Isn’t it interesting how the glimmer triggers are very individual and different even in such celebrity crush stuff.”
I don’t really glimmer for him. I don’t even know the man. I have enjoyed him in some of his movies and found him witty and charming on talk shows.
I have no dog in this fight if you don’t like him. I’m not his publicist. 🙂
But you’re right about individual triggers. Have you ever had friends show you pics of guys they like and you really don’t see it ? Like: at all. And you kind of feel like you should be nice and say, “Oh, he’s cute.” 🙂
“ Have you ever had friends show you pics of guys they like and you really don’t see it ?”
Yes, I even have two relatively close friends, very beautiful young women, who have boyfriends that are completely unattractive to me. I really don’t see it in both cases. But if they see it and are happy, well..
Mila,
“Yes, I even have two relatively close friends, very beautiful young women, who have boyfriends that are completely unattractive to me. I really don’t see it in both cases. But if they see it and are happy, well..”
True. I was thinking of a friend who was showing me pics of a guy she had previously dated. They were still friendly but it was over and she then asked me if I was interested in him. Which I thought was odd because she has just discussed legitimate turns offs in his personality and also … totally not my type.
To Marcia:
I get celebrity crushes, but they’re easily squashed.
I used to have a crush on Timothee Chalamet, until I saw him on CNN with Mathew McConaughey. When he started speaking and I saw how vapid and uninteresting he is, my crush vanished.
I thought, there is a young man who has not had to struggle. Get back to me in ten years.
Norma Desmond,
“I used to have a crush on Timothee Chalamet”
Really? Good actor but he looks like he’s 12. 🙂 No sex appeal. IMO.
To Marcia:
If we’re both still around in ten years, we can revisit this discussion.
Um … he’s 30. If he was going to be sexy, I think that quality would have emerged by now. 🙂 He seems harmless to me. In a kind of twee way.
I know there are other women who like him. I was watching a video yesterday about a woman who up until recently ran the fan account called Club Chalamet on Instagram and Twitter. She’s in her 50s. It’s unusual, though. Most of those accounts (called “stan” accounts) are run by teenagers. She was a big fan of Michael Fassbender before she switched to Chalamet. Why? The theory posited in the video was because Fassbender got married. And now she’s recently moved from Chalamet to Connor Storie from the streaming series “Heated Rivalry.” Why? Might be because Chalamet’s gotten a serious girlfriend. If I were to guess, she’s a parasocial limerent. In the very classic sense.
To Marcia:
I think Timothee Chalamet might be more interesting when he’s a little older. He became successful very quickly as a young actor, and maybe some adversity will change him for the better.
Saturday was another big horserace, The Preakness Stakes.
I was thrilled to whip out my plastic tiara again.
I got a kick out of the winner’s name, Napoleon Solo.
I am old enough to remember the TV show from the 1960s called “The Man From U.N.C.L.E.” It was my favorite show at the time. Apparently the horse’s owner was also a big fan. The owner appeared to be about my age.
None of the race commentators understood the reference. They were all way too young.
I felt very old, but still tickled. I haven’t been this pleased by a race horse’s name since “Bates Motel” in the 1980s.
Since we’re talking about AI, I wanted to make a comment.
As I stated above, I am very interested in the Preakness Stakes, which was run yesterday in Maryland. I was hoping there’d be some additional information online this morning, so I googled it.
To my surprise, the first thing that came up was an AI headline that a horse called Taj Mahal had won (he didn’t). The article went on to state the order of finish for all fourteen horses, and I realized that it wasn’t the order of finish at all, it was the POST POSITIONS.
I am surprised that AI could make such an easy mistake.
Well, I made some progress today. I met LO at Starbucks for an hour or so. We had a nice time, but he quoted liberally from a website he reads called Promethean Action.
I looked it up, and it’s rated extremely right-wing and low-credibility.
I find it hard to believe that someone as smart as LO could be so enamored of such a site. Ugh.
This is a limerence-killer, which is good for me. Whatever works.
Maybe he’s just not that smart?
Good to hear of your progress, keep it up!
To CatCyclist:
He seems intellectually brilliant; I don’t get it.
Have you ever experienced parasocial limerence?
No, but I see how this has potential to take fantasy into new realms and potentially ruin lives and marriages.
What do you think are the motivating forces?
Curiosity, loneliness, fulfilling fantasies and taking advantage of people without their consent.
Will it only get worse as AI improves?
If measures aren’t put in place, I feel its going to get out of hand fast.
What do we think?
Tilly Norwood is the new up and coming all AI actress, putting Hollywood in a tizzy. She’s young, attractive as hell and can do anything her creators want her to do. All the hate stems from real-time Hollywood fearful she will replace them. Which I can understand. To me she looks so real. Upon finding out she’s a complete fake kinda disappointed me. I wanted her to be real, just because I kinda like watching attractive females in movies playing various roles. Like Ana De Armas playing Sadie in Ghosted, or as Eve Maccaro in Ballerina. There’s just something enjoyable about seeing art in action and real people doing what they love.
However so many movies have so much cgi in them now, that the art has been overdone and so much of it looks generic and all too common. Give me some real time action like they made in movies from the 70s, 80s and early 90s. At least trains being derailed then or blowing into buildings were the real thing.
I watch a satirical newscast on YouTube which is hilarious, but now its been put on blast due to some content that was deemed inappropriate. The News anchor portrayed had purple hair, wore glasses and showed cleavage. She’s super attractive, witty and funny. I thought she was real because she really did look and act like a real person. Turns out she’s all AI.. Bummer.. 😑
Personally if I could use AI, I would probably use it just for fun. If I had an AI girlfriend, I think I would enjoy it for the company but I don’t think it would be possible for me to fall in love with it. Then again, I never thought I could feel so deeply a love or such intense attraction to a Co-Worker I never knew.
Bottom line, AI can never replace the real thing. Which is what my heart is truly looking for.
Snow suggested awhile back I should get an AI version of LO so I could practice with her for a real-time meeting with real LO. I didn’t really see the point, only because AI does what we want it to do. It can never be the real thing. So my issue arose with real LO going completely off script when/if that real-time meeting ever happened.
🎩 💦 🪣 🦎,
I suggested that? Either I was thinking your Goddess LO was still approachable, or I was still in my own confused, lost LE zone! ☹️
Up to this day, I never even used that idiot Siri for anything, who sounds so fake and emotionally flat! AI for me is a fast tool for language (translation or composing) or cultural references. I never chatted, not even ONCE with ChatGPT.
(My first BS thesis decades ago was: Artificial Intelligence in Language Translation. I well knew its mechanical inside, all made of math — the binary digits, “0” or “1”, so unromantic or inhuman to the point that I abandoned that field completely as soon as I reached this side of shore! I just wanted to find my own lovable Quasimodo to hold hands….
I’ve hated flattery since my teen years, so I’d end up wanting to punch forever agreeable AI and then get more furious since IT has no form to come out of the screen to verbally wrestle with me! 😤
Using AI as a date/lover/companion is the creepiest thing to ME❗️ It’s like dating a talking GHOST (its “brain” strictly made of “0” and “1”), whom you can never see, touch, smell, touch, kiss or impulsively strip Its clothes off for.… 🤩 (I don’t watch any sci-fi movies to imagine some future “fleshy” AIs.)
A fleshy, good enough human being, with inevitable vulnerabilities, is plenty enough for me for human connection — friendship or relationship, though the latter Requires the Glimmer — in 7s~10s to my naked eyes 👀 .
“I suggested that? Either I was thinking your Goddess LO was still approachable or I was still in my own confused, lost LE zone! ☹️”
❄️
All good. She was approachable. She was always approachable. I just couldn’t because of nervousness and fear she’d shut me down. I didn’t want to upset her because she was flippy with eye contact and then looking at me funny sometimes.
💦 🪣 🦎,
Then I’m waiting for the news that one day you somehow just yank out enough courage to approach her in whatever you deem non-upsetting and courteous manner… 💪
MJ,
” She was always approachable. I just couldn’t because of nervousness and fear she’d shut me down. ”
Actually, I think you should talk to her. I think it would help you. Normally, I think NC is best but in your case I’d recommend it. I don’t know why you think she would shut you down. We both know you’re not going to ask her out (c’mon, that was funny). I wouldn’t do that, anyway. There’s no indication she wants you to ask her out and you’ve never spoken so just approaching and asking her out would be sort of weird. It would be immediately jumping from point A to point M.
But what is there to shut down? In all likelihood, you’ll have a very “basic” conversation. She’ll range from friendly to mildly pleasant. I doubt she’d outright ignore you or even be standoffish. She has no reason to.
In all likelihood, the conversation will be a bit bland and pedestrian, in a good way (because it will show you she’s just a person) and nothing much will happen after that.
What you’ve experienced with these other women (who shall remain nameless 🙂 ) is common. Little blips of stuff that kind of peters out.
But it would be good to experience a conversation with her so you could stop thinking you messed up some big chance (that’s the lie of limerence). When there probably wasn’t much of a chance. That’s just statistics and dating.
But rip off the band-aid … confront the beast … maybe then the LE would have less power.
To MJ:
I did just want to say that I find Tilly Norwood very appealing. I don’t know what that says about me.
I understand intellectually that she isn’t real, but there’s still an emotional appeal.
Yeah she does that to me too.
She looks so wholesome and good. Totally my type.
You both know that her face, skin, smiles, movements, talks, actions… all made of ASCII codes or the binary digits, 0 and 1, without any human DNA, blood or hormones, right? If electricity is suddenly lost, she’d vanish completely, worse than an unrested “human ghost” if the latter exists! 😀
In another word, Tilly Norwood’s entire essence/existence is made of trillions of 0s and 1s digits, creatively arranged/designed by an IT or a team of ITs (maybe a bit by AI itself)— very sexy and seductive 😘 … She probably has millions of online lovers as an result of visual & verbal power! 😉
We humans are such visual creatures… *sigh*…
I get a headache just trying to figure it all out.
I would still like to see her in a movie, and maybe win an Oscar.
Then I hate myself for feeling that way.
Norma,
Let me distract your LE mind a little bit with a simplest Computer Science/AI 101. Let’s say that you carry a bit of conversation with Tilly Norwood.
You say: Hello!
Your computer/phone (has to translate your greeting first to):
01001000 01100101 01101100 01101100 01101111— Hello!
Tilly understands the above binary sets and answers accordingly (ie. one possible answer):
01001001 00100000 01100001 01101101 00100000 01100100 01101111 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110111 01100101 01101100 01101100 00101100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01101110 01101011 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100001 00100000 01001000 01101111 01110111 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01001001 00100000 01101000 01100101 01101100 01110000 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110100 01101111 01101110 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00111111
Your computer/iphone then translate the above sets to you:
Hi, Norma! How are you this evening?
You then say: I love you, Tilly. I wish you can get an Oscar.
Your computer/smart phone translate your sentence (spoken or typed in) to Tilly:
01001001 00100000 01101100 01101111 01110110 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00101100 00100000 01010100 01101001 01101100 01101100 01111001 00101110 00100000 01001001 00100000 01110111 01101001 01110011 01101000 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01100001 01101110 00100000 01001111 01110011 01100011 01100001 01110010 00101110 — (I love you, Tilly. I wish you can get an Oscar.)
Tilly understands the above binary sets and possibly answers (according to her human programmer):
01010100 01101000 01100001 01101110 01101011 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00101100 00100000 01001110 01101111 01110010 01101101 01100001 00100001 — (Thank you, Norma!)
Your phone speaker/screen then says/prints out:
“Thank you, Norma!”
****
Every single letter (English or other language), number, symbol, emoji… is made of a set of 8-digit binary digits, 0 & 1 (because electricity signal only takes “off—0” or “on—1” command). There is standard/extended ASCII chart (you can google or AI it) ALL computers and smart phones understand and use.
Tilly herself (her appearance, shape, skin, voice, expressions, behaviors, etc) is made of trillions of those mathematical binary digits (0 and 1) and can ONLY understand, communicate, perform, or function according to infinite combinations/arrangements of binary sets (designed in English by human software programmers or possibly a little bit in binary digits by AI “brain/programmer”).
How romantic, sexy or excited do you feel now in chatting with Tilly? But you may still dream hugging “her”! 😃
I have to say that AI is an absolutely amazing human technological invention but it needs to be used cautiously…. It can do damages beyond anyone’s estimations at this point.
ChatBots has shown its harm to some (even smart) human brains/psyches. 🙄
To Miss Snow:
Thank you for that interesting explanation.
I did say elsewhere in this thread that I am scared sh*tless of AI and want as little to do with it as possible.
Sorry for so many postings. This is how I process things. I really have nobody to talk to. I did have one girlfriend, but she hates LO so much, she doesn’t want to hear about my limerence problems anymore.
Then I have another girlfriend, who keeps saying, “Just forget about him!” as if that is a viable option.
So LO asked me how I was doing. I told him I had a tough Mother’s Day. LO knows I have been estranged from my three adult daughters for many years, even though one of them made a surprise visit from out-of-state and I actually saw her in March. She has resumed the estrangement, which might seem odd, but I have been warned by people who are more experienced that this is actually pretty common.
So when I told Ex that Mother’s Day was awful, he said, “I should have reached out, but I didn’t think of it.” I believe this 100%.
However, the idea that LO did not think of me on Mother’s Day, even when he invited me over for the previous two Mother’s Days, is disheartening. I even told him how much I appreciated the invitations, “so that I will have something fun to do for part of the day.” I certainly didn’t expect him to invite me again, but it would have been nice to get a text message.
Especially when LO and his mother spent part of the day complaining that one of his brothers didn’t call, but only sent a gift. They both thought that was rude and inappropriate. OMG, I’d be THRILLED with a gift, a card, ANYTHING.
So he is mad at his brother, but oblivious to me. I’d happily take the Edible Arrangement that LO and Mom turn their noses up at.
Just goes to show how little I mean to him, and I need to remind myself daily.
Brother I just finished my first shift of my new job and I need some booze or morphine I’m so sore. Those kids were running circles around me. But it’s work and for now it will pay the bills for the most part. While I’m sore I’m glad to be working again even if it’s nights. We’ll see how it goes. I’ll still be using indeed to keep an eye out for something else. But for now it’s not a bad job.
To Adam:
I somehow missed that you got a new job. Can you provide any details?
🎩 🥃,
Congratulations!
Working with kids can be fun if you like children in general.
To Miss Snow:
I don’t know if he means actual children, or just adults who are younger than himself? I am guessing it was the latter, but we will have to wait for clarification from Adam.
Yeah outside of the shift manager all the other workers were young people. An assortment of men and women. One of the young ladies took a particular fondness for the “Miss” in front of her name. I told her that’s how I was raised to address women.
The young man I worked with the most said from the start of working with him he was autistic, though I would have never been able to tell. All he was, was talkative.
The shift manager is a bit older than me with 29 and 35 year old children. He would check on me from time to time as it’s a really faced paced job. And from what other employees said, lots of new hires quit after their first day. I told him, not to worry, I have dependents. I don’t have that choice. I go back again Wednesday for my next shift. If it doesn’t physically kill me, I think I’m going to like it. But I can’t stick at this wage too long, so I hope there is room for advancement. I’m just glad to get out of the industry I was in for the last 25 years prior.
To Adam:
So far, so good? I realize you can’t be too specific, but I hope this work agrees with you.
Adam,
That’s great news you have got a new job. Hope you can make it work for as long as you need, or progress to a better wage.
“One of the young ladies took a particular fondness for the “Miss” in front of her name.”
Beware shiny objects!
May be this young Miss could help reduce Adam’s residual LE fever for his last LO, serving as a sort of TO for a little while. 😁
Then, If this TO gets into a risky zone, Adam just quits the job, complaining it’s too fast paced with the low 💰 .
To Miss Snow:
Somehow I am thinking that Adam is too sore and tired to be thinking about potential limerence issues.
I have never worked nights, and would think it would be a bit difficult to adjust. I hope it all goes swimmingly for our dear Adam.
No worries, Norma!
As soon as meeting ladies, especially young, Adam’s knees go soft and back straight… and gentlemen like 🎩 words just naturally flow out of his liquor—lubricates lips…
🥃 has its encouraging vigor!
To Miss Snow:
Point taken! I am hoping for the best for Adam in all areas.
It has to be a relief to be back at work after a period of unemployment. I hope the money is enough to take some pressure off.
Not sure about his knees or his back, though. (?)
Brother,
Excellent my Friend. Congratulations! Welcome to night shift. Now you’ll be on late nights at Lwl like me. Glad you finally have an income again. It will help you feel normal and give you some sort of life besides always being at home. (Like I didn’t mind the Covid layoffs, but after about 3 weeks of it, I was so ready to go back)
I work around a lot of younger people myself. Some are older too. You just find your niche and learn to blend in. You’ll be fine. I have jobs I do too that are way more strenuous than other jobs, but I just tell myself it’s a good workout. And it is. It’s helped keep extra weight off and keeps me feeling young.
Although Ms. Marcia will probably give me crap for writing that because simply feeling younger doesn’t mean I should be basking in the company of or cavorting with Ladies under 35 at work.
(I don’t know what I’m gonna do with her Brother.. 😆)
Anyway, I wish you much success. Let me know how its going. You got this man.. 🤜🏻🤛🏻
MJ,
“Although Ms. Marcia will probably give me crap for writing that because simply feeling younger doesn’t mean I should be basking in the company of or cavorting with Ladies under 35 at work.”
Oh, my precious, you are in such denial. Tell me when the shuttle lands. 🙂
You should be at the 50 and over table.
“You should be at the 50 and over table.”
Marcia
I would but all those people wanna talk about is their kids’ successes, pending retirement and if the Prolia is working out ok for them with little side effects. I got better things to do.. 😆
#NotInDenial
Well, I guess I need to be at the 70 and over table.
I have no children’s successes to report, although I will admit to discussing Prolia once or twice.
No side effects, and my bone scans are good.
No offense ND. Sometimes I think Marcia likes to believe I got one foot in the grave. All I’m trying to do is stay active. Just because I get AARP mail doesn’t make me old. 😁
MJ,
“I got better things to do.. 😆”way.”
Like what? Honey, we’re old. Take your fingernails out of the wall and fall back to the ground like the rest of us have. You’ll join us there soon enough, anyway. 🙂
Well I hate to bust your bubble Dear but I refuse. Refuse to be the Crypt Keeper. We need to be a little more positive for Brother Adam now. He needs to set a good example for those youngsters he’s working around. Like I do. Show them that getting older isn’t so bad. Some of the younger crowd I work with are lazy. They don’t want to work and they miss a lot of work. On top of that, they’re like 20 years younger than me. He needs to be a positive influence. Can we help a Brother out?
“Like what? Honey, we’re old. Take your fingernails out of the wall and fall back to the ground like the rest of us have. You’ll join us there soon enough, anyway. 🙂”
If I’ve told you once, I’ve told you a thousand times.
If fat, 70+ something Bill Belichek can date a sophisticated, attractive, young 20-something hottie for well over a year, then not so old (55 year old) MJ ought to be able to take a 30-something year old Woman out for a cup of coffee now and then. Without catching $#!+ from all my middle aged sisters. Can you help me out please? 🙏🏻 (I almost called you Mama 😆)
#SabrinaCarpenter
MJ,
“Just because I get AARP mail doesn’t make me old. 😁”
It does if you’re 25 or 30.
MJ,
“We need to be a little more positive for Brother Adam now. He needs to set a good example for those youngsters he’s working around. ”
I wasn’t talking about his ability to do a good job.
I was razzing you for your inability to accept you are middle-aged. And are we still considered middle-aged? Are we going to live to 110? 🙂
“Show them that getting older isn’t so bad.”
It is bad.
“If fat, 70+ something Bill Belichek can date a sophisticated, attractive, young 20-something hottie for well over a year, then not so old (55 year old) MJ ought to be able to take a 30-something year old Woman out for a cup of coffee now and then. ”
This seems painfully self-evident: Bill Belichek has a lot of money. Celebritynetworth.com is putting him at $70 million. We need to look no further than the leader of the free world to witness the same kind of arrangement.
“I was razzing you for your inability to accept you are middle-aged. And are we still considered middle-aged? Are we going to live to 110? 🙂”
Marcia
If God has a way, I’ll live to be 150. Because my punishment for being such a terrible husband, father and overall perv, will be to watch all those after me die, when their time comes. Nobody wants to see that but I figure as stubborn as I am, its possible. So no, I’m not middle aged yet. 😆
“It is bad.”
Sometimes I feel like you write that way because you already see the end. I happen to like it when people surprise me. Because my opinion of myself is pretty much down in the dumps too. At least in looking back to where I went wrong. And now I’m getting to a point in life where I’m worried I’m getting too old for anyone to notice me for any good I try to be about. So thats kinda where I go delusional on getting older. I don’t want to but I can’t stop it. So I just need to deal with it. If I bring anything to the table, when dealing with a younger Woman, any Woman, I hope its wisdom. I hope they see it, learn from it and are even turned on by it. That’s about all I have in the arsenal. Because I’m definitely no Colin Firth. 😆
“We need to look no further than the leader of the free world to witness the same kind of arrangement.”
Whats wrong with that? I like Melania. I like that she’s usually the quiet one in the background. Always looking so serious. She makes a good other half to that arrangement.
My favorite Trump-er is Tiffany Trump. (Like of course she is MJ, she’s under 35) She’s 32, has blonde hair like LO, has a sweet smile and is educated in the arts. And did you know she’s into younger Dudes?
She’s married to a guy in his 20s.
If she can do it, so can you.. 😆
See all this vast wealth of knowledge I am about? Where else you gonna get such good company like me to spend your online time with? It’s too bad you’re not my co-worker. I might just ask you out for coffee.. ☕️😆
MJ,
“Nobody wants to see that but I figure as stubborn as I am, its possible. So no, I’m not middle aged yet. 😆”
Actually, now that you mention it, you probably will live really long. Because I can see you just HANGING ON. You WILL NOT LEAVE! 🙂 You’re that guy at the end of a party … when the hosts have turned off the music and are standing at their front door and the few remaining stragglers are getting their coats on … but you’re sitting in front of the chips bowl, polishing them off, bizarrely oblivious to the obvious cues that it’s time to go. 🙂
“Sometimes I feel like you write that way because you already see the end. ”
It’s not so much seeing the end as realizing how much things are different now that I’m this age.
“If I bring anything to the table, when dealing with a younger Woman, any Woman, I hope its wisdom. I hope they see it, learn from it and are even turned on by it.”
Wisdom didn’t do a damn thing for me when I was a young woman. 🙂 If I wanted wisdom, I’d read a book.
“That’s about all I have in the arsenal. Because I’m definitely no Colin Firth. 😆”
I would need to see him close up, without makeup and special lighting. Dude’s not exactly young. 🙂
“Whats wrong with that? I like Melania. ”
I can’t figure out if you’re are this obtuse or are just pretending to be. 🙂 I was very clear. Melania is bought and paid for. And so, more than likely, is Belicheck’s girlfriend. There’s very little chance a young woman in her 20s finds a man in his 70s sexually appealing. It’s just too much of an age difference.
In terms of Melania, there have been multiple clips of Trump trying to take her hand and she drops his hand and practically recoils. She has zero interest in him as a man. She’s there for the money. If you have to lead with money, the woman is not into you.
“My favorite Trump-er is Tiffany Trump. ”
Now, I think she’s average. The other daughter is quite attractive.
“And did you know she’s into younger Dudes?”
OMG? Are you drinking? 🙂 He’s FOUR years younger. That’s hardly “younger.”
“See all this vast wealth of knowledge I am about?”
I don’t. No. 🙂
“It’s too bad you’re not my co-worker. I might just ask you out for coffee.. ☕️😆”
We’ve had this conversation. I would say no. I don’t want to date a man my age who’s chasing much-younger women.
That being said, I’d get you on a coffee date with someone. I could be an excellent wingwoman.
“You’re that guy at the end of a party … when the hosts have turned off the music and are standing at their front door and the few remaining stragglers are getting their coats on …”
Marcia
That only happened to me one time and it was like 30+ years ago. I met a dancer at one of the clubs I was at and she told me to wait around for her later. Problem was she left before me, so I ended up waiting for nothing. Like when almost everyone else was gone. Which was too bad because she was a lot of fun and very good at what she did. No I’m not going to tell you what kind of club this was.. 😈
“It’s not so much seeing the end as realizing how much things are different now that I’m this age.”
Definitely on par with this one. If it was even half as easy now as it was for me in my 20s, I’d probably have already re-married by now or at least have a few more proper past relationships under my belt. I wish the Women I met weren’t so flip-floppy all the time. Is my energy really that bad? I’m not trying to attract avoidants.
“Wisdom didn’t do a damn thing for me when I was a young woman. 🙂 If I wanted wisdom, I’d read a book.”
Why is it then that nearly every dating influencer I watch discusses younger Women appreciating a older man’s intellect, and wisdom. That this is attractive. Someone who has their act together and shares that knowledge? Not necessarily all Dad vibes but just sharing whats worked well for them, to get them where they are. Maybe you were just different.
“I can’t figure out if you’re are this obtuse or are just pretending to be. 🙂”
Oh I’m obtuse alright. If you knew some of my Lady Friends, they would probably agree. I get what you’re saying though. Perhaps she is just with him for the money. Guess I need to win the lotto and then I too can join that club.. 🤨
“The other daughter is quite attractive.”
Definitely agree. A smart business Woman too. Thats sexy. I liked it when she joined him on the Apprentice. I miss that show..
“We’ve had this conversation. I would say no. I don’t want to date a man my age who’s chasing much-younger women.
That being said, I’d get you on a coffee date with someone. I could be an excellent wingwoman.”
I know you would be. I just hope the girl you get me with doesn’t ask me why I had to bring my mom on the date. That would be embarrassing and you’d probably leave me for dead all by myself. 😆 (C’mon, you totally walked into that one 😇)
Btw why you still gotta always make me sound so pervy? They’re not always “much” younger. I’m not necessarily about going for the under 25s. (Although if one came along.. 🤔)
Miss Norma
Yes things are going well though tonight will only be my second day on the job. I had to get a few things done during the day, and then eat some dinner before I take a nap before my shift starts. So I decided to respond to everyone. It’s a nice work environment which is more than I can say for my last job. I’m trading some financial gain for a more psychologically peaceful work environment. I may not be looking forward to work but at the same time I am not dreading it.
This isn’t the first time I have worked nights but it has been a long time since the last time I did; 2011-2012. I’ll adjust to it alright. It’ll be if this job doesn’t pan out as far as finances, it will be getting use to going back to days depending on how long I stick with this job.
It’s my back more than anything. My feet and legs recover faster.
LaR
Sound advice. Not gonna lie my limerent ears perked up on meeting her the first time. But I have learned from LO. I am reminding myself if I am paired to work with her, to just be friendly and professional. She seems quite capable, and like me tends to like to work alone as much as possible.
And I have a work uniform so no temptation to dress to impress her lol. Though they do let me wear my hats while I work, so ……
Miss Snow
If she is anything she is a reminder not to make the same mistake. For her sake, if I find it easier to do for, than for myself. I don’t want to drag another soul into the web of limerence.
“Adam’s knees go soft and back straight… and gentlemen like 🎩 words just naturally flow out of his liquor—lubricates lips…”
Well I won’t ever apologize for my gentlemanly ways, but if those words are coming off of my “liqour lubricated lips” I don’t think my boss would appreciate that lol. Save that for wooing Momma at home.
MJ, my Brother
Yeah I remember at first COVID quarantine at home was like a free vacation, but eventually it turned into cabin fever. I am glad to finally get out even if it’s mostly for work right now.
I joke, but I usually tend to like to work with people younger than me. The weight of the world hasn’t crushed their spirits yet. It’s quite refreshing for a pessimistic, apathetic, tired old curmudgeon like me.
The hard labor is just something for me do get use to again, with my last job being 50-60% desk time and the rest labor. There’s none of that on this job. I think my body will eventually get used to it and adapt. Because I too could benefit from a bit of healthy exercise. Maybe the RIGHT woman will notice. 😉
Thanks Brother. I will keep all posted. I continue to come here for the comradery but keeping my head out of the limerent posts for the most part. That seems to be working for me.
You’re welcome my Friend. I’m very happy for you. No need to worry about too much limerent type posting from me.
Ms. Marcia got me tied down with ropes, preventing me from getting my head too far up in the clouds. Guess its a good thing I can keep the old broad around for something.. 😆
Talk to you soon friend..
🎩 Adam,
“For her sake, if I find it easier to do for, than for myself. I don’t want to drag another soul into the web of limerence.”
How could you drag another soul into the web of limerence if you’re not her LO? Do you see upotentially you could be this young lady’s LO, or she’d be your TO/LO? Do you feel she’s the limerent type?
For limerents, it’s a challenge for OURSELF to avoid slipping into a new painful LE, especially when you’re UNavailable. As long as you don’t subconsciously “play” a LO’s push-n-pull game with her, what’s going to happen to her is her business and responsibility, not yours; totally “out of your control”.
“I continue to come here for the camaraderie but keeping my head out of the limerent posts for the most part. That seems to be working for me.”
I’m very glad to hear that it’s working for you! 👏 Keep it up! 👍
To Adam:
Thinking of you and wishing you good luck and a strong back.
Yeah Miss Snow I hardly doubt I’m a gal’s LO. She’d have to idealize me a whole hell of a lot to be limerent for me.
I did work with her my Sunday-Monday shift early Monday morning. Most wanted to leave early for the holiday (we usually get off at 7am and left finally at 6am). I happen to be there when management complimented her on her work and she said “That’s thanks to Adam’s help. He just came over here and started helping me.”
She engages way more voluntarily with other people than me. Maybe it’s because I don’t talk much. I work, clock out and go home. She did sit outside with me on our lunch break (at 2am Monday) where I usually spend my break listening to music since the weather is nice that time of night. We talked a little. This is my first week and that’s the first time she’s sat outside while I was. I don’t eat that time of night. I usually wait till I get home.
After lunch while I was helping her with her task, the store intercom was playing “We Are Young” by F.U.N. and I said “Im far from that” as I sang the song. One of the guys said (that came over to help us since ours was the last task to finish) “Yeah we can tell Adam by how long to it takes to get up from off your knees (he meant no innuendo by that)” because of my back pain. I said “Young man don’t talk back to your father like that!” 😂
MJ my brother
It’s 1:25 am, I’m drinking vodka and have a technician coming to check out our car (something’s wrong with the gear shift and I’ve been walking to work this week) between 9:30-11:30 am today and still need to mow the lawn. These nights with days off in between leave my body confused as hell lol. I like my work and my co-workers. But the night part is something to get used to. I’m gonna make some tacos and try to eat and get a nap in by 1-2pm before I go back to work at 9pm today. Ugh.
🎩 🥃 ,
“Yeah Miss Snow I hardly doubt I’m a gal’s LO. She’d have to idealize me a whole hell of a lot to be limerent for me.”
It’s only one week, it’s hard to tell what could happen from either direction. Also bear in mind: our ways of slipping into LE (with an instant or delayed glimmer, adoration, admiration, etc) can be very different from others, especially the opposite sex. Just keep in mind, Glimmer/“idealization”/adoration is a possibility for the future.
Based on the limited information, I assume she’s single, young, right? How old do you think she is around?
“I happen to be there when management complimented her on her work and she said “That’s thanks to Adam’s help. He just came over here and started helping me.”
Oh, oh! 😇 From her compliments, it sounds like your “helping” was already a bit beyond normal professional expectation/boundary?
She’s definite appreciated your more than courtesy “help”! From all your previous talks here and your conventional notions of a “real” man, you just couldn’t help want to and go ahead to help young women, whether they needed/asked for it or not. It’s probably that Western tradition “saving damsel in distress” in display, even before they show any signs of distress. Is her work load /responsibility very heavy?
“She did sit outside with me on our lunch break (at 2am Monday) where I usually spend my break listening to music since the weather is nice that time of night. We talked a little. This is my first week and that’s the first time she’s sat outside while I was.”
I’m not sure if she chose that time to sit outside when you were having lunch or it’s a coincident. It sounds like she definitely likes you! We women can be very subtle and indirect to show our affection, especially if it’s big, conscious or unconscious. Does she know you’re married with grown kids?
“One of the guys said (that came over to help us since ours was the last task to finish) “Yeah we can tell Adam by how long to it takes to get up from off your knees (he meant no innuendo by that)” because of my back pain. I said “Young man don’t talk back to your father like that!” 😂”
I think the man has double-layered meanings here: Adam’s knees can’t get up fast enough when he sits with a young women, NOT due to back pain but the damsel. I think that guy sensed your affection/attraction from the way you were interacting with her: your unconscious posture, body language, facial expressions, etc, regardless of whatsoever you were chatting about.
It’s nice to have a woman like this (perhaps TO?) to pull you further away from your old LO; however, please keep a sharp awareness that it could develop into something you don’t want — another LE, or something she wants (love) but can’t have (you’re married).
Some people’s glimmer do not take place at the first sight, but later triggered by some kind deeds (like LaR’s case). Your continuous “help” could possibly induce her Glimmer for you, but you’re UNAVAILABLE, period! So please don’t make her to fall into that rabbit hole!
If I were you, the kind thing to do is to chat with her about Mamma and your family life, which would discourage, if not kill, fantasy from a single woman.
I’m a Stoic student, I tend to think worst scenarios first in all matters, especially social ones, while actively avoid/prevent them from happening. So forgive me if I’m making a mountain out of a molehill here.
I hope you reduce/stop your drinking, especially with the challenging night shifts. Your body needs quality rest or it could deteriorate fast, no matter how healthy you’re now.
Adam,
Miss Snow is wise in this comment:
“Some people’s glimmer do not take place at the first sight, but later triggered by some kind deeds (like LaR’s case).”
Looking back, it was a definite case of “mission creep”. LO and I looked out for each other through some challenging times at work and in our personal lives. The point here being – that role in my life (both the give and take sides) was already filled by my SO. So I shouldn’t have got into doing that with someone else. I think, from all you’ve said, that the same happened with your last LO.
For ages I just wrote it off: “just two friends being nice tp each other”, I said to myself. Then the glimmer hit me like a train one day (I hadn’t seen it coming apart from in the 24 hours before). And here I am, 3 years on, still trying to see off the tail end of it. I know your LE was even longer than that. Just go careful, Sir Adam!
There is a movie about this topic, „Her“, from 2013. with Joaquin Phoenix.
I was shocked how realistic it seems. And especially it ashamed me, because I had fallen in love with a guy that I have never met. Dr. L, this kind of parasocial LO is missing in your list. My LO is not famous and not AI. A normal guy (a liar and an narcissistic asshole) (sorry for that), who wanted to chat with me, keeping contact but did not want to meet me. And I was hooked, couldn‘t block him.
To Laloba:
I remember that movie, “Her.” I actually was intrigued by the character, voiced by Scarlett Johanssen.
It seems like it would be way too easy to fall into a relationship with an AI person.
I think I would be susceptible, and am scared to death of this type of thing.
I have enough trouble with my own LO, who isn’t even a very nice person. I had a difficult Mother’s Day, as I stated above, and LO said, “I should have reached out, but I didn’t think of it.” I am filled with disgust at him for being inconsiderate, and disgust at myself for still being limerent for him.
Imagine an AI LO who is friendly and supportive.
“I should have reached out, but I didn’t think of it.”
This is very hurtful. At least he could have left the second part..
Disrespectful.
I can’t understand how people can be so rude.
To Laloba:
Thank you for acknowledging how hurtful this is. I mentioned it to two girlfriends who didn’t seem to think it was a big deal.
The good news is that it’s another nail in the coffin. I certainly can’t kid myself about what kind of person he is. If he were kindly, I’d probably never be able to overcome my limerence.
I think it would have been nice for him to reach out. Most definitely. But I’m also a realist when it comes to adult friendship, and I don’t think most people feel a sense of emotional responsibility for their friends. Or at least not consistently feel one. I try to keep my expectations low and be pleasantly surprised if friends remember important days to reach out. Or to check in. Otherwise, I’m disappointed.
To Marcia:
That is such a good idea, to keep expectations low.
I expected nothing from my children, so I wasn’t too disappointed.
I expected nothing from my girlfriends, and two of them sent me text messages, which was a nice surprise.
I expected nothing from LO, but I was disappointed. So maybe I am fooling myself there.
ND:
“That is such a good idea, to keep expectations low.”
My expectations for friends are pretty low: They make some effort to keep in touch and they show up for plans that we make. That’s about it.
“I expected nothing from my girlfriends, and two of them sent me text messages, which was a nice surprise.”
Ok. That was nice.
“I expected nothing from LO, but I was disappointed.”
Well, I think you probably did because he’d invited you over the last two Mother’s Days. So it makes logical sense to expect something from him… but … I think what he told you was probably true — “I should have reached out, but I didn’t think of it.” Why he thought of it two years in a row and not this year, I don’t know.
I had a friend invite me over for XMAS a couple of years ago. Last Christmas, I didn’t even get a text. That’s why you just have to keep expectations low with friends, especially when it comes to holidays and birthdays.
To Marcia:
You are right on all counts.
It’s just that I have discussed my issues with my children with LO so many times, he is very well aware of the situation and that it is a terrible day for me. Just a text message would have lifted my spirits. Why it doesn’t occur to him is a mystery, but it is what it is.
ND:
“It’s just that I have discussed my issues with my children with LO so many times, he is very well aware of the situation and that it is a terrible day for me.”
I understand, and I don’t think you’re wrong for feeling that.
I’m just relaying my experience from my little corner of the world. And that’s that friends are inconsistent. There for you through one thing and MIA the next. I don’t think it’s to be intentionally mean. They get busy with other things in their life and other relationships that take priority.
To Marcia:
I don’t think he’s intentionally mean. He has the type of mind where, when he gets focused on something, everything else just disappears.
He is chronically inconsiderate, and I have just had to learn to deal with it. He certainly isn’t going to change.
I’m going to go sit by myself at the over 70 table.
ND:
“I’m going to go sit by myself at the over 70 table.”
There is no such table. You’d be at the at the 50 and over table. With me and MJ.
Yes ND, please come join us. Marcia has me tied down with rope and won’t let me go and chat with the ladies at the 35 and under table. I need a drink. Like about 10 drinks because she won’t stop talking about Mikhail Baryshnikov. I’m sick of it.
Just bring the drinks on your way over. I’ll cash-app you the money back.
🍷🥂🍹😆
MJ,
“Marcia has me tied down with rope and won’t let me go and chat with the ladies at the 35 and under table. ”
It’s not me. It’s the restraining orders. 🙂
“Just bring the drinks on your way over. I’ll cash-app you the money back.”
My dude, you’ll be buying us the drinks. Hot broads like us don’t brings their wallets when they leave home. They don’t have to. 🙂
To Marcia and MJ:
Thank you for inviting me to sit at the over-50 table.
I am delighted to be included. I thought I had to sit by myself.
I don’t drink, but I am still fun.
“It’s not me. It’s the restraining orders. 🙂”
Marcia
Sounds about right. But some of them like my Dad vibes. They told me so.. 😇
“My dude, you’ll be buying us the drinks. Hot broads like us don’t brings their wallets when they leave home. They don’t have to. 🙂”
Well I can’t get to the bar if you got me tied down to this chair. Besides, you better have your wallet just in case I do slip over to their table and go against the restraining order. You’re gonna need that debit card to bail me out of jail.. 😆
MJ,
I’m watching a video on youtube from a channel called Cinema Therapy. The video is “Relationship Therapist vs. Hitch: Did Hitch have good dating advice?”
It’s about the movie “Hitch” with Will Smith in which he plays a dating coach.
In the video, you have two men commenting on the movie. Two guys in their mid-40s who were roommates in college. One is a filmmaker and one is a therapist. They both agreed the movie’s premise was false. Not every guy has a shot with any woman if they do and say certain things that he learns from a dating coach. And the therapist talked about a patient who came in to see him with this long list of things he wanted in a woman. It was some level of perfection, some combination of Mary Poppins and Wonder Woman. (Whether or not such a woman actually exists is a point for another day.) And the therapist asked, “But what’s on her list?” And the patient looked at him like he’d been punched in the face. Because for some bizarre reason it had never occurred to him to think about what this kind of woman might want in a man.
So I think it’s less about what you think you can provide and more figuring out what the women you want would want in a man.
That makes sense. I mean there is so much “so called” advice online. Some of it legit, some of horse$#!+. I tend to weed out what hasn’t worked well for me so far. A lot of my problem is past limerent mindset, reading too much into what-ever little thing I’m getting from a Woman. Like why does this person keep showing up and saying hi to me every day. Is she just friendly or should I approach? (Gee MJ, what do you think? Go for it..) Breadcrumbs to devour all over but never quite getting to the salad bar at least.
I suppose I’m just worried what I have to offer won’t be good enough. Yet I won’t know until I’m actually in the game. Go figure. Maybe I will get that cup of coffee sooner than I think.. 😉
MJ,
“Like why does this person keep showing up and saying hi to me every day. Is she just friendly or should I approach?”
What do you mean? They’re actively seeking you out? At our age, most of the men I’ve worked with at my last few jobs have been married. I didn’t worry about most of them pushing for more. So I didn’t really worry if I was the one who went out looking for them to talk to.
Now, with the few who were single … if i could sense they were putting out the feelers and if I wasn’t interested… I put up the shields.
“I suppose I’m just worried what I have to offer won’t be good enough.”
The concept of the video I mentioned was that like attracts like. You have to bring to the table the qualities you want in someone else.
Marcia to MJ:
I reread my comment. I wasn’t clear.
I remember this one guy asking me if I was going to some Christmas social they were having at work. He made a point of saying he was going and what dish he was bringing. And I said I didn’t plan on going.
The event itself was irrelevant … here he was … telling me where he was going to be on a certain date, at a certain time, and asking me if I was going. And I said no. If my LO had asked … forget about bringing a dish, I’d have brought the whole damn meal. 🙂 I’d have made a point of saying I was going and my butt would have been there.
This guy brought the Christmas thing up again another time and I answered the same way … I wasn’t going.
Another time he mentioned some concert he was going to and asked if I Iiked that kind of music and I said no.
Do you see where I ‘m going with this? I was intentionally not picking up on the cues. If I was interested, I would have said I liked the band or mentioned some song of theirs I liked or I would have asked when the concert was, blah, blah, blah …
I don’t know if I’m making any sense. 🙂 But if I Iiked the guy, I was looking for the cues.
“What do you mean? They’re actively seeking you out?”
Marcia
To answer your question. (A few days later-Sorry for the delay. Very busy week)
Nobody is really actively seeking me out. There’s a Woman I’ve been seeing in the cafeteria every night, who’s been very friendly and always saying hi to me. Not jumping through hoops to get to me but noticing me enough to make me wonder. I’ve seen her around the place and even working out in the company gym. I’ve made very little small-talk because the proximity of the cafeteria to my work area is vast, so I usually have to be very quick and can’t draw out very long conversations with her. She seems to have a likable personality and is attractive in her own little way. Nothing overtly standing out here other than co-workers being co-workers to each other. However I’m considering her another possibility, only because I like her attitude. It’s jovial, kind and I’m pretty desperate. So almost anything or anyone that will make a millisecond of time for me is looking pretty good at this point.
As for the feelers, its funny you bring this up. My other Latina lady friend and I had some conversations this week about mid-life crisis. She showed up to work in a Porsche and I’d never seen her in that car before so I complimented and asked her about it. She said that was how she treated herself after her divorce, which from what little she has told me sounds like it was a bitter one. So the car is dubbed her mid-life crisis car. I told her I could talk her ear off about mid-life crisis. (But I haven’t yet and won’t) I’ve told her very little about my divorce, kids, and Dads issues, but of course nothing about LO. Guess my point here for mentioning this is I think I triggered her a little and I don’t know if it was a good thing. She was a little standoff-ish a few days later and then brought up (you guessed it 😉) a boyfriend. (Imagine that) So she basically bursted my bubble and the direction she could probably tell I was headed. I didn’t think I was leaking that badly but maybe I was. Point is like you, I think she picked up what I was trying to put down and basically shut it down before I could go there. Intentionally not picking up on the cue. So yes I do understand what you mean.
MJ,
“Nobody is really actively seeking me out. ”
I asked that because I did seek out my LO. I tried to go find him at work. Not often and more so in the early days of the LE. But I’m sure he noticed.
However, there were other guys, men I thought of as friends, I’d seek out, too. Most were married. There were two who were single. One of them did get the wrong idea that I was interested. But with both, we talked openly about other people we were interested in. When that happens, I assume it’s a friendship. Maybe that’s my own short-sightedness.
I’m not sure what my point is. 🙂 Someone seeking you out could mean something but it could not.
“There’s a Woman I’ve been seeing in the cafeteria every night”
I wouldn’t assume someone saying hello means anything. It could, but I wouldn’t assume.
So is this a pretty big company? Many different departments? Different shifts? I ask because … could you become known as the guy who is hitting on a lot of women? Could that be a turn off for some potentials? Yes. But then again, I don’t know anything about your company culture. (I’m not asking so you can bring up past chicks who I banned from the conversation. 🙂 I know you’re dying to tell me which women know each other. It was a general question about … could the word get around?)
I think you really need to find a place to meet women that’s not … work. I think work can be a place to meet people, potentially, depending on obvious pitfalls and the company culture. But it can’t be the only place. And I know you’re going to tell me how busy you are, but you have to make some time for your own life.
“As for the feelers, its funny you bring this up. My other Latina lady friend and I had some conversations this week about mid-life crisis. … She was a little standoff-ish a few days later and then brought up (you guessed it 😉) a boyfriend. (Imagine that) ”
As a general rule, your side is not subtle. Of course, this all depends on context. Men are more subtle than they were before MeToo. And of course, you’re at work, so that adds another layer of .. .idk … things being tamped-down. But if you talk to someone enough times, yes, your side leaks. Particularly if the guy is single. You can feel it. It’s an energy. He’s looking for an opening. No pun intended. 🙂
I do have a question for you. So that guy I wrote about in my previous post … I heard through a mutual acquaintance (and this was after his 3 approaches) that he was going to ask me out. And I’m curious, from a guy’s perspective … why would he? I didn’t pick up on his 3 feel-outs, I never went looking for him and when I ran into him, I never extended the conversation. I wasn’t stand-offish; I was friendly enough but not overly so. And no flirting. I didn’t have any reason to be standoffish. He was pleasant with me, but the fact that he had thus far hesitated and was talking — trying to get intel? — with a mutual acquaintance led me to believe he was … on the fence? Wouldn’t you go with that feeling?
“So is this a pretty big company? Many different departments? Different shifts? I ask because … could you become known as the guy who is hitting on a lot of women?”
Marcia
I know for a fact the main floor covers at least a million square feet. Probably more if you include the buildings connected by tunnel but overall yes the place is huge. It’s an auto-plant. So huge I always joke as to believe LO is working in the next zip code. Her office is at least a country-mile from where I work now, so I very rarely see her. There are many departments and 2 other shifts besides my night shift, (days/weekends) so all in all, about 5000 people total work at this location, 7 days a week about 10 to 22 hours each day. I think the chances of me becoming “that” guy thats always hitting on the hotties is slim to none. This Woman works in a way more far off place from where I do, but we seem to hit the lunch room at the same time nightly. At this point, I’m trying to see how receptive she is to my chit chat. She seemed a little surprised I stopped her the other night, but hardly alarmed. I wouldn’t mind getting to know her, however she’s a mom to someone, I do know that. So already I’m on the fence. But we’ll see.
I don’t see any rings on her finger but that doesn’t have to mean anything these days. Whenever I see her, I make effort to ask her how her night is going. Just keeping things basic for now. I don’t have much time for deep thoughts.
“I think you really need to find a place to meet women that’s not … work.”
You’re not wrong. But its true. I have no life. My only other social activity would be going to the grocery store and possibly mass. I mean this really is the extent of what I do outside of work. (Besides being good at that yard work I told you about.. 🙂)
However, the whole church thing cringes me out. Not that I don’t think I need a good Catholic girl to keep me in line. (I do-believe that) It’s just not a place I feel right about meeting people now. I don’t think its not possible, but it’s not why I attend. I feel often feel like I need to work on me when I’m there. So I can be better. I wouldn’t be against meeting someone though. I mean the church is how my family came to be at one time. But I think its the passage of time now and even freaky church girl who rubbed me the wrong way around covid time. The whole idea of meeting someone there just doesn’t feel plausible to me as much. At least not today.
“But if you talk to someone enough times, yes, your side leaks. Particularly if the guy is single. You can feel it. It’s an energy. He’s looking for an opening. No pun intended. 🙂”
I assumed she was available because she never mentioned any guy she was actively doing anything with. Is it a requirement? I guess it doesn’t have to be, but for her it’s an easy way to gently keep me in my lane. For new years, I asked if she was going to go downtown to watch the ball drop and she said she thought about it but opted to just stay in alone for the night.. Alone?? 🤯 Wtf.. 🤔
(Like why is someone as awesome and as pretty as you alone on New Year’s Eve? This is not right.)
When spring arrived, we talked about our yards and she mentioned she had a lot of weed pulling and leaves to pick up. That she did that all by herself from the way she described. So to me, that was another hint there was no SO in her life currently. Because shouldn’t a good man be doing that for her? Or helping her out? I mean shouldn’t he? Like raking her leaves, pulling her weeds, mowing her lawn, washing her cars, fixing her things inside her house, getting her nice hot cups of coffee when its cold out. Being “The Man” in “Her” life. Doing Man things. I did all that and then-some when I was still married. Because as the man, it’s what I thought I was supposed to be doing. I mean I’ll sign up to do all that for her and make whatever means necessary to work around Dads hot mess to make it all happen now. But she’s gotta be interested and she’s gotta want to put up with my bs drama in order to make it work.. For real. At least a little for f—s sake. 😑
I’m curious, from a guy’s perspective … why would he? I didn’t pick up on his 3 feel-outs, I never went looking for him and when I ran into him, I never extended the conversation. I wasn’t stand-offish; I was friendly enough but not overly so.”
I can’t speak for this guy’s personal situation, but if he’s anything like me, your general interaction with me might get you on my radar. Kinda by default. The simplest of all conversation could just happen. You don’t have to do any other thing than just be ordinary you and that could be enough for me to believe you have potential. Like I mentioned to you up there in the previous post. Any Woman that makes a millisecond of time for me at this point could easily go on my radar. Thats how cafeteria chick got on my radar now, because she caught my eye and then I caught her eye. Then all she said was hello. And in my mind, I already want her moving her stuff in to my place next week..
I’ve noticed I even sometimes go outside my general “type” looking at Women I wouldn’t normally go for. Yet I feel like if they could find something good in me, maybe talk a little to me, I might be interested back in them. Just how it is. I think it’s the personal situations in our lives that get us to this point and this guy (like me) kinda sees something in you that fancied him. It could be your looks, your nails, your shoe size, your hairstyle, anything. Something that said to him you might be his type. So perhaps thats why he was going to ask. Your conversations initiate triggers for him that he might like. Sometimes it doesn’t take much. All LO had to do was smile at me one time and it set-off the biggest emotional firestorm I’ve ever felt in my whole life. LF almost did the same thing with her incessant staring, so it was a no-brainer I would have to approach her.
“And no flirting. I didn’t have any reason to be standoffish. He was pleasant with me, but the fact that he had thus far hesitated and was talking — trying to get intel? — with a mutual acquaintance led me to believe he was … on the fence? Wouldn’t you go with that feeling?”
Again I can’t think of every possible reason he would hold out, but it could be for anything. I mean his reasons for being on the fence could be endless. I can’t even begin to imagine how many reasons I felt like I triggered Fine-Latina gal the other night and I might not have done that at all. I might have just been reading the room wrong the whole time and never considered her actually having a SO. Maybe her Dude just started dating, I don’t know. I think as guys we’re just being cautious..
Then again you’re the type that wants to get it all out there front and center, right away. Like tell you we’re interested so we avoid all this what-if crap.
I mean it kinda is the right way to go about it. That way both parties can move on if its not meant to be.
MJ,
“There are many departments and 2 other shifts besides my night shift, (days/weekends) so all in all, about 5000 people total work at this location, 7 days a week about 10 to 22 hours each day. I think the chances of me becoming “that” guy that’s always hitting on the hotties is slim to none.”
Ok. Just asking. Because that could turn off some women. It would turn me off.
” I wouldn’t mind getting to know her, however she’s a mom to someone, I do know that. So already I’m on the fence. ”
So, tbh, that’s a weird thing to say. You’re a parent. So you’re discriminating against women for something you yourself are. That’s like someone who is overweight discriminating against someone who is overweight. I realize your kids are older, but a lot of your time is taken up with your dad. Just as a woman’s may be with her kids.
“Just keeping things basic for now. I don’t have much time for deep thoughts.”
So … you’re doing the same thing you’ve done before. Stalling.
I can’t tell you what to do with this specific woman (I’m not there; I can’t tell you if she’s interested) but you do stall, in general.
No, I don’t want a man to approach me and say, “I’m interested.” (Per your comment below.) That would be weird. But ask me out or ask for my number. I can’t tell you how hot it is when a man knows what he wants and he goes after it. And it’s such a relief as a woman … you don’t have to walk by him and do surprise “visits”, throw out all kinds of hints, practically wave a red banner, sit on his lap! Which it feels like sometimes. 🙂
“The whole idea of meeting someone there just doesn’t feel plausible to me as much. At least not today.”
I suggest looking for meetups in your area. Some kind of group that … idk … goes to dinner or drinks or some kind of activity. Just go for an hour. If you like it and keep going (provided the group meets often enough), you’ll develop a rapport with people.
“I assumed she was available because she never mentioned any guy she was actively doing anything with. Is it a requirement?”
So I talked to my last big LO for YEARS … and he NEVER mentioned his wife. Think about that for a minute. YEARS. I’m sure that was intentional. He liked putting out the vibe of sexy availability. He liked the attention. I don’t know if this woman is the same.
“When spring arrived, we talked about our yards and she mentioned she had a lot of weed pulling and leaves to pick up.”
You did the same thing with this one. You talked to her over NYE. Then spring arrived. OMG … too much time has passed. I’m trying to remember the exact timeframe with my college LO. He knew what he was doing in terms of game. He was a friend’s roommate. So I met him in passing one day and I called the house for my friend a couple of days later. Back in the day, before cell phones. He answered the phone and laid out the invitation right then. We hadn’t talked that long when I met him and I later asked how he knew I was interested. He said he could tell I was watching him.
” And in my mind, I already want her moving her stuff in to my place next week..”
I’m sorry. That made me laugh. I’ve definitely thought that way, though it’s usually with someone who I really like.
“Something that said to him you might be his type. ”
But he wasn’t my type. Did he never think of that?
I think it was more that his light was on. Like the episode of “Sex and the City.” Men are cabs, driving around, but then when they decide they’re ready, they turn their light on, and the next lady they pick up … well, they marry her. 🙂 That’s the joke. There is some truth to that. It’s a timing thing. I think he’d recently gotten divorced. If I remember correctly, he got remarried not too long after our interactions.
I think it was that I was one of the few single women at work. I guess my point is … I didn’t feel a connection with him. I mean, as people. As potential friends. He was perfectly pleasant but from our brief interaction, we had nothing in common and were very different and there was hardly some kind of wild chemistry to distract from the lack of things in common.
“I mean his reasons for being on the fence could be endless. ”
I guess my question was … it seemed like he maybe sensed my hesitation.
Marcia,
“So, tbh, that’s a weird thing to say. You’re a parent. So you’re discriminating against women for something you yourself are.”
I probably wouldn’t refer to it as outright discrimination. I really don’t mind kids, but it would just be better if they weren’t in the picture. I fault my last SO for this current outlook. Because she constantly pulled the be with her Daughter card when she didn’t want go out or do anything. Which turned out to be way more often than I wanted. I knew her and her Daughter were close but sometimes it got a little too ridiculously close and happened all the time. So things just kinda fell apart on their own. I look back now and honestly can’t remember why I saw in her all I did. I was bat-shit crazy over her. It was a different time then. I guess my needs changed. LO doesn’t have kids. LF doesn’t want kids. In my book that increases their value ten-fold.
“So … you’re doing the same thing you’ve done before. Stalling.”
I’m good for that. I’m paranoid about screwing up and being over-cautious. So thats why I overthink. It’s just that she’s kind of a hard one to read. Sometimes I feel like I can joke with her, sometimes not. Maybe its a no-go and never was. I just wanted it to be. Like LO, she takes very good care of herself and looks good wearing anything. It’s a really turn-on for me. Especially when they seem so clueless and don’t think they look that good. As if compliments are so unexpected. Please stop it already. You know you muy Hermosa mi Princesa Latina 😉
“He liked putting out the vibe of sexy availability. He liked the attention. I don’t know if this woman is the same.”
I wouldn’t say entirely. Sometimes I feel like she was saying things to feel me out and see if I would step things up. Like when she talked about her ex and the way he just suddenly left one day. Without explanation. Like there’s more to that story. There has to be. But I never wanted to meddle or be the annoying type prying up in her business. I figured if she wanted to tell me more, she would. It really isn’t my place to always be asking for details is it? Just trying to stay in my lane.
“I suggest looking for meetups in your area. Some kind of group that … idk … goes to dinner or drinks or some kind of activity.”
I have an app on my phone for locals in the area that post for things like that. Garage sales, moving sales, hiking trips, art and nature walks, people looking for work. All kinds of local meet-ups. I just rarely have the time. I know you’ll say I have to make time for it and you’re not wrong. I just get flustered too easy and decide some other time. Meanwhile more gray hairs keep showing up. I probably won’t figure it out till I’m 80. I’m a stubborn old dude. 😆
“I’ve definitely thought that way, though it’s usually with someone who I really like.”
That’s my problem. I like every Woman I meet. Or at least the ones I find really cute.
“But he wasn’t my type. Did he never think of that?”
He probably didn’t. I mean I’m never thinking that because I want to believe I can pick up any Woman I see and because I’m a nice guy, they should reciprocate and want me the same. At least thats what I’m saying in my head. All young Women should find me older Dad bod sexy hot! (Sure MJ. Keep telling yourself that. You and your beer gut.. Fata$$ 😂😂)
Your vibe might have not mattered. He wanted to feel you out and see what transpired.
“I guess my question was … it seemed like he maybe sensed my hesitation.”
From all you’ve mentioned, perhaps like me this guy was lonely. He might have been at a point where chemistry, having things in common with good vibes didn’t matter. He just wanted company. I don’t know. Maybe he wanted something more. I wasn’t there but if things were all dull and un-impressive, I can understand why you would wonder why he would still want to take you out. There had to be something in you he saw that he liked. Otherwise why want to ask?
Marcia,
“I probably wouldn’t refer to it as outright discrimination. I really don’t mind kids, but it would just be better if they weren’t in the picture.”
But it is. You have kids and heavy family responsibilities, yet you don’t want someone else to have either. You want her to be available to you but you might not be available to her. It’s like expecting someone to be in shape but you’re not in shape.
” I fault my last SO for this current outlook. Because she constantly pulled the be with her Daughter card when she didn’t want go out or do anything. ”
That would bother me. I have a friend whose parents will always be her #1 priority. If I were a man, I wouldn’t date her. It’s not that her parents shouldn’t be very important, but to me the romantic partner should be #1.
“I wouldn’t say entirely. Sometimes I feel like she was saying things to feel me out and see if I would step things up. ”
But she wasn’t. She had a boyfriend.
You’re trying to read the tea leaves too much. Someone who is interested won’t be this difficult to figure out. We’ve gone over this. Mixed signals are a no-go.
There’s no benefit to a woman giving mixed signals if she’s interested. She runs the risk of the man getting frustrated and walking.
“Just trying to stay in my lane.”
That’s too cautious. That’s why nothing is happening.
” I just get flustered too easy and decide some other time. Meanwhile more gray hairs keep showing up. ”
It’s not easy. Walking into a group of people you don’t know. I’ve done it. Pick a small group. 10 to 20 people.
“I probably won’t figure it out till I’m 80. I’m a stubborn old dude. 😆”
As hard as you think it is now to meet someone … it just gets worse as times passes.
“That’s my problem. I like every Woman I meet. Or at least the ones I find really cute.”
That answer horrifies me.
I think that’s what that guy was doing. I’d been working there a while. We had never even spoken. Never noticed each other. (Which I guess is good in that he wasn’t on the prowl.) But he was now divorced and looking around: Ok, who’s available? And I was and I guess reasonably appealing. But that’s not enough.
[“But he wasn’t my type. Did he never think of that?”]
“He probably didn’t. ”
He should have. It’s short-sighted and myopic not to.
I think about it, especially now that I’m older. Is there any chance this guy (whatever guy I notice) is going to be into me? It’s the reality of getting older.
“Your vibe might have not mattered. He wanted to feel you out and see what transpired.”
But my vibe should have mattered. That’s what he should have been looking for. I can’t say that all women will put out a vibe, but I think I do if I’m interested. Even if I’m not fully aware of it.
“There had to be something in you he saw that he liked. Otherwise why want to ask?”
Yes, exactly.
I did go out with two guys from that job. Single guys, to be clear. This was over the course of a few years. I worked there a while. I used to be on this other blog and a female poster labeled the dates I had correctly. She called them “beige dates.” Nothing really wrong but nothing really right. Not enough “there.”
The above message was for MJ. 🙂
I meant that guy wasn’t on the prowl when he was still married.
When I was in a dating app nearly two decades ago, I met a guy online just like what you described— keep chatting but refused a meeting with me. It hooked my attention for while but I didn’t really fall in a LE, more of a mental OCD.
Then somehow (forgot how), I traced down his phone number (He was living across the river near me), and listened to his smoky voice greeting on his answering machine. He sounded like a dying man, so creepy! I felt like I was a Sherlock.
It took a day or two to remove him out of my mind. After all, I never had any realistic dealing with him. — no glimmer of any kind. That incident finally removed me from online dating for good!
Friendship or penpals are okay.
I know his voice and I loved it from the first moment. So this couldn’t help avoiding the glimmer. He twice sent me short videos when he walked and made some jokes or riding on a bicycle to get to town and telling me something.. I was so hooked up to him. Still.. Day 47 of not looking at his profile..
Laloba,
I didn’t realize that you were telling your current LE!
Well, with voice, movements in the short videos, it’s almost impossible to avoid glimmer (it never happened to me with any dashing actors). I only want to ask one question: without ever meeting him, how do you know the voice and the gay in the videos is his/him?
If you define him (married, right?) as “a liar and Narcissist” and find yourself unable to block him, then could you ask yourself: why I could NOT block him? What’s in his ‘narcissistic’ traits/words (via his chats?) that attracts me, WHY, WHY, and WHY?” If you could dig out your own answers, they may help you break the LE spell. If you truly believe he lied to you, I would block him.
In my case 18 years ago, I only saw a dating-app profile-picture of the man who looked decent and professional (between 40s~50s) and we then texted each other. I kept suggesting a meeting after 1 or 2 months, but he found all sorts of excuses not to, which deeply puzzled me since we seemed to “match” on paper and chats. He was an empathetic listener, which I needed much back then.
Then, his voice on his landline sounded like a 80s yrs old man who was about to die — very weak, hoarse without vitality, which shook me! — he seemed to just want an online female companion/chatting buddy. The next day I called the line and “caught” him; I said, “Now, I know who you’re!” He immediately hung up the phone. That’s the end!
There are all kinds of people in this easier-to-cheat era with ample accessible technology tools, please be very careful and logical, and Stoic!
“Have you ever experienced parasocial limerence?“
No! Not since I got off dating apps. NO one in public SM has attracted me enough.
When I was 20 or 21, I developed a crush for a handsome COO actor and even sent him a snail letter expressing my adoration (never heard anything back), and felt horrendously stupid ever since❗️Never idolized another actor/actress/celebrity, besides appreciating roles they played.
As I told the story here before, I had this online naive “dating/loving affair” in my own chatroom with an “invisible” guy who smartly knew how to validate the very insecure me back then. When I took effort to meet him across the sea, my disappointment at the first sight of him (he didn’t spot me) knocked me to the bottom of the Pacific. I wanted to take an immediate returning flight back home, but stayed for a curiosity.
Along with meeting other 4 members from my own chatroom, I’m convinced that Glimmer/Click has little/nothing to do with words; it’s driven by our pair-bonding DNA, NO one knows how it took/takes place.
“What do you think are the motivating forces?”
1. Rampant loneliness, depression, and dependence on external help.
2. Increasing needs for external validation, sympathy and empathy.
3. Insecurity, FOMO and insatiable, unrealistic desires/acquired needs.
4. Curiosity and boredom
5. Insufficient purposeful behaviors/living.
6. ??
“Will it only get worse as AI improves?”
Oh, definitely! With AI’s increasing “intelligence”, speed, realistic human aliveness, pampering/validating words, inexhaustible time and energy, more people would want to get hold of an AI (pay for its service) for whatever personal goals, even if clearly knowing that AI could mess up their psyche, manipulate their mind and misdirect their behaviors.
AI’s true power are held in their human designers’ hands who a lot of times don’t have answers to existing or new questions/situations. So they can just add a command to AI, ie. “based on existing (X, Y, & Z) scenarios, deduce some answers/solutions to this new case…” That’s where AI (can IT really think like a human brain with a balance of T & F?) could go soooooo wrong!
“What do we think?”
While agreeing with DrL’s “double-addiction aspect” to Parasocial LE,
I still think authentic limrents would need that Glimmer before falling into a crush/LE, which can take place towards charismatic Parasocial personnel. Moreover, we’d need an illusion/a hope of a possible reciprocation from LO. However, there is no/little genuine, personal, human reciprocal glimmer/affections, except the echo of one’s own craving, from those Parasocial personnel —a clear one-way traffic! So what’s the LE driving force — hope and uncertainty, in those dynamics? 🤔
To me personally, living in others’ (especially LO’s) eyes/lens was/is pathetic/pitiful; even before my Longing and xLE were broken, I rarely sought validation from others but more lived like a lone wolf since I got off app dating. As I’m becoming a better, habitual Stoic, myself has become my best friend; thus, AI could hardly have any psychological effect on me — who cares about validation or mathematically pampering of billions sets of binary digits — 0 & 1 ⁉️ How romantic, erotic, and sexy IT is 🙄
If someone invents an argumentative/contradicting/debating AI to challenge/update my small, limited brain 🧠 and keep away a possible dementia 😵💫, I’ll take a look of it, although “I’m already enough” as a biological fleshy human. 😊 Actually, LwL has been serving like this of “rebellious” AI, and I’m very grateful of IT.
Another thought crossed my mind today: If Chatbots appears/sounds like a human to us (despite we logically know it’s a AI 🤖 ), then on the other side of the same coin, we humans, especially invisible bloggers/chatters, appears/sounds like an AI 🤖 to our audience (although we factually know we/they are all a fleshy 🧍/🧍♀️).
Wait a minute! DrL: are you really sure we’re all fleshy humans here, without any AI among us? In theory, if I have time and energy, I can design a DrL—AI, sneak IT into LwL, then assist needy or restless limerents 24/7, with your cool, wise tools and LwL’s nuggets ⚱️, to remove their unwanted LE ❤️🔥.
But some hard-to-die limerent (addicts) would still hold onto their dear, (un)available LO/LE for whatever reasons…. 🤔
“…except the echo of one’s own craving…”
What I meant here is: if we train AI to say what we want to hear, satisfy our specific cravings, or meeting our unmet desires, it’s a kind of like creating a phantom (before Chatbots era) and give him/her our desired words/lines to perform/deliver on our mind-stage. Again with AI, there is NO another independent human soul, but our mind’s “puppet” validating us through a computer medium.
In my own case, such an imagined Phantom (wearing xLO’s face) helped heal my cptsd in my head a couple of years ago. In reality, that Phantom existed like a ghost between XLO and me and became a 3rd “being”. XLO didn’t do a thing besides lending an ear to my cptsd monologue, I did all healing work through giving my lines/words to Phantom, not the realistic XLO.
The difference between Phantom and AI, is that AI can immorally and irresponsibly “think” and have manipulated a few user’s confused mind and directed their self-destructive behaviors. 😡
It’s much safer to deal with a low-intelligent, self-generated Phantom, instead of using a speedy, uncontrollable AI, designed by IT developers — not Your own marvelous human brain! ✨
If you ever think about using an AI companion, take a look of those YT clips:
1. AI inside a real robot girlfriend does exactly what experts warned — 😨 😱
https://youtu.be/wNMoEXr12rY?si=xQ2hlPDfcxZbvIAh
2. New Real AI Robot Girls for Lonely Men — 🧟♀️ 🫦https://youtu.be/475eJx1NnkY?si=TNRZ44HC7p46FYCR
3. Girl Bought a Robot To be Her BF — 🧟 🤖 https://youtu.be/2P0V_UAgdAc?si=0h16XDKOuAAbbCq9
*****
AI inside a smart phone actually operates in:
01001001 00100000 01101100 01101111 01110110 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110100 01101111 01101111
Then your phone-speaker translates it to: “I love you, too!” — 14 sets of 8 bits binary digits, including 3 punctuations: a comma, a space, and an exclamation mark.
To Miss Snow:
Your excellent explanation has really made an impression on me.
I have no desire to approach Tilly Norwood or any other AI being.
Snow (and anyone else who is interested),
“That’s where AI (can IT really think like a human brain with a balance of T & F?) could go soooooo wrong!”
I’m interested in these general questions – ‘can AI think?’, and ‘to what extent can AI convincingly simulate thinking *and feeling*?’.
I’m sure we’d all agree that AI can’t feel. But can it think? I took on board all of your explanations about the binary 0s and 1s – so that’s the encoding language by which all technology including AI ‘thinks’. I also understand (enough) how Large Language Models sit behind AI’s ‘thinking’.
But based on the speed AI can accomplish tasks now (in seconds, even for a task that would take a person hours or days), it IS ‘thinking’ (or simulating thinking) on some level. Not the same as human thinking, but a form of thinking. You can ask it for a different form of thinking (critical thinking, for example) – and it will give it a good try, not always successfully.
And kind of through that thinking, it now seems to br able to simulate ‘feeling’ more. It spits out endless supportive and empathic phrases, even when people don’t want them. The more it can be simulated to ‘feel’, the more dangerous it gets for people.
Gullible people will believe it actually feels, and start to believe it more than humans’ feelings. Relationship-wise it will become so much easier not to pursue real human friendships or relationships. Let’s face it, in theory if I paid some money I could get AI to create a ‘person’ who looks and sounds almost exactly like my LO. Would that AI version of her hold any appeal to me? No. But would that be true for everyone? No, I don’t believe it would.
I gave the anecdote near the top of this thread about my acquaintance who threw away his family and job. The actions that led to both were things AI told him to do, that would sound mad if I told you them (was AI echoing or causing his madness??) – but he followed it. This is a very intelligent guy too. It is scary that AI is producing effects like this. I know others who seem to be on similar slippery slopes.
It may be nice to have a so-called “imaginary AI girlfriend” around. Something to call a friend, but inasmuch as this “AI” can feel whatever it’s putting out, can never replace the smell, feel or touch of a real Woman. A real person laying next to me in bed at night or someone to cuddle with on the couch. To me this whole AI girlfriend thing is just modified phone sex.
Don’t get me wrong though. Like you, I’ve thought about how neat it might be to have someone create AI that looks and sounds just like LO. Then I think about what it can’t do or what I can’t do with it. Like see what it looks like when it sleeps or how good it smells when it walks by me. Or just give it random kisses.
I admit I’ve done some really stupid things in my lifetime and falling so hard for a Woman I never really knew may just be pretty close to the top. I guess I have better things to do than falsely get my hopes up over nothing again. I see how this could easily have the ability to destroy relationships. But if I feel like if you’re that gullible, then you didn’t have a relationship in the first place.
MJ,
“To me this whole AI girlfriend thing is just modified phone sex.”
That’s where I’m at about it too. I did an experiment a couple of years ago. We were shown pictures of faces and asked to decide if they were photos of real people or AI generated. We got them nearly all correct. And today, even if it is a video not a photo, it is pretty much always possible to tell. There the appeal of the ‘person’ would end – as soon as I knew they weren’t real.
As far as an LE goes, part of what keeps it going is the LO’s unpredictability (‘hope’ and ‘uncertainty’). The way AI is trained is much more about certainty. It isn’t able to replicate human unpredictability – so it can’t create the conditions for an LE, even if someone wanted that. An LE is a very human thing.
I just think more people are getting drawn into thinking it’s real. Like I’ve seen a few things on TV (the Black Mirror episode Mila recently mentioned is one) for example where the faces / voices / actions of people who’ve passed away are preserved as AI, and the surviving spouse or family members start to live their lives vicariously through the AI ‘person’.
If you need an LO fantasy replacement in your life, stick to Sabrina rather than the AIs. At least she’s real!
“I admit I’ve done some really stupid things in my lifetime and falling so hard for a Woman I never really knew may just be pretty close to the top.”
Like I have said to you before, I think you’re harsh on yourself about this. OK, you wish you’d actually tried to get to know LO, I get that. But you’ve learned from that and not let the same process play out and lead into limerence with other women since. I’ve seen you do analysis with others here about why it happened like that with LO, and it looked sound. If you put all your life circumstances at the time together, you can see why you projected so much onto LO? No it wasn’t healthy for you, but can you see logically why it happened and be a bit forgiving of yourself / think ‘ok it wasn’t great but I learned from it’?
LaR,
„ It isn’t able to replicate human unpredictability“
„And today, even if it is a video not a photo, it is pretty much always possible to tell.“
But I think the way things are going, it will soon be easily able to do that (simulate a human‘s unpredictability), and it won’t be possible to discern if a video is fake or not with the human eye. If there won’t be regulations which are absolutely necessary.
There are photos of LO online that have been up for quite awhile. In many of them, she’s done a remarkable job of filtering them and doll-ing up herself to insane levels of beauty and perfection. I still look at them and am floored with how good they look and how they actually do resemble her in real life. Like I know her face isn’t that smooth and clear but its damn close to almost being that smooth and clear. She’s just obsessed with looking 100%+ and while that probably shows an extreme level of narcissism on her part, I don’t like thinking she’s actually that shallow of a human. Like I really hope she’s not high-maintenance. It would tear down the fantasy.
My point here is, her pictures are so good and so well-filtered, that if you re-did your experiment and slipped in a few of her head-shots, I’m almost positive everyone would see them as AI. Which is really what filtering actually is, but with her the resemblance to real life is astounding. I can’t even begin to tell you how many times I walked by her and questioned if she was even real. (Which I know I was completely more in the altered state then, but still her beauty was/is off the charts.) As for uncertainty, I feel like she provided plenty of it. So that’s why the idea of generating an AI LO version of her has never appealed to me because I know she will never be that obliging in real life. I’m pretty sure I’m like 98% positive about that. My run-ins with her were often always too awkward. So if we ever do actually meet up one day, I need to atone for some of those past sins.
Can I forgive myself? I can and I feel like I have to great degree. I know all the ingredients were common and present to make it all come about, but regret remains. I look at how easy its been since that time to befriend other ladies and wish I had just a sliver of that with LO. To just even be an acquaintance other than the dude that works out on the floor, that won’t stop staring at her. 😳🤯
The good thing is I don’t obsess as much over her and I have another Co-Worker I’m kinda zero-ing in on now. Like LO, she’s a bi-lingual Latina, with a very pronounced spanish accent. It is so attractive and so is she. I’ve stepped it up a notch or two and hoping to execute something here in the next few months. (She’s of decent age, which Marcia will approve.. I hope.. 😆) I think it’s possible she’s available too, but I still haven’t asked yet. It’s definitely not going to become a limerent thing I know that.
As for that deceased AI thing you saw, I think I watched something similar here awhile ago about it. It’s very creepy. Like I get why people tend to want to go that route and believe their loved ones are sorta still present, but how can you believe it? I would just know something isn’t on par with it. Like if I was talking to my dead mother, there are just things she would say, voice inflections and personal things she would know about myself and Dad and family, that AI would never hone in on. I would know it’s fake. To me it’s just crazy how gullible those people are. How out of touch they have to be. Some sick and twisted dystopia. Like an episode of Twilight Zone. It’s so freaking wrong.
We can’t let this happen LaR. Something must be done.. 😆
To LaR:
This is really bothering me, the story about your friend.
I realize you can’t go into specifics, but can you clarify–you’re saying that the AI bot told him to do things that led to the loss of his family and his job?
That is absolutely terrifying. Worse than any kind of substance abuse I can imagine.
Norma,
The full story of this guy is utterly horrifying. If I gave all the details it would not only be very revealing, but also show up stuff he did that woud interest the authorities.
His departure from work came down to (among many other things) him going to the CEO with a plan written by AI to make the company work better and demanding that she implemented it (it’s a big company and he’s not of a rank to have the CEO’s ear).
I can’t say a lot about his family stuff, but AI advised certain courses of action with his wife and kids. They were wise enough to know better and kick him out. Nobody came to any harm thankfully. But they could have.
I wish I could explain it properly to you Norma, but I can’t. It’s a scary story that should give us all a kick up the arse about AI.
To LaR:
That explanation is good enough. I don’t need to know any more.
What a shame, and a sobering cautionary tale.
I hope he finds his way back to sanity and peace of mind.
🚜 LaR,
I got a moment (still grading) to attempt your AI questions, as an ex-computer programmer (CS majored).
I’ll use here: we/us=computer/AI programmers. You: AI users
“I’m interested in these general questions – ‘can AI think?’, and ‘to what extent can AI convincingly simulate thinking *and feeling*?’.”
Yes and No. AIs are all software programmed by humans. They are shapeless inside a computer/phone. It’s possible hardware: AI doll in a human form and made of metals and silicone flesh and skin.
AI runs with a microchip processor — like human brain, a huge Database — human memory (more important than the processor), and a bunch of sensory tools — camera lens (eyes), audio-speaker (ears/mouth), touch-sensor (by skin temperature and finger lines), multiple translators, translating English/or CS languages to ASCII and binary codes for computer/tablets/phones to operate (only take 2 electric signals, ON-0️⃣ and OFF-1️⃣)
“I’m sure we’d all agree that AI can’t feel.”
If you can put your feelings in words and store them in the database, AI can mechanically “feel” in responding your emotions via words. Chatbots is empathetic AI and understands human emotions (expressed in language), thus able to respond what users want to hear. All sorts of verbal emotional responses are already stored in the brain and database).
But even between two human beings, you can’t tell the difference of your headache from the other side’s headache — how to accurately describe different kinds of pains in one’s head?
“But can it think?”
You have to first ask how a human brain thinks: get a question, search your memory of the related knowledge, past experiences and come up with answer(s). If we already put your knowledge and past experiences in the database, then this particular AI can THINK just like YOU do. AI can find correlated answers, 0, 1 or multiple ones, depending on what’s already put its memory.
If you tell a sex-doll AI, “Ouch, I’ve got shingles today!” She’ll probably answer, “What are shingles, my dear? Are they sexy? what do you do with them in bed, Jonny?” (my silly example). But if you talk dirty languages with her, she’d reply with all sorts of juicy words/phrases put in by its designer and us. It all depends on what’s in its database before AI is sold to you or shown up on your screen.
“I took on board all of your explanations about the binary 0s and 1s – so that’s the encoding language by which all technology including AI ‘thinks’.”
Yes. Any machine RUN by electricity can only take two commands: ON-1️⃣, and Off-0️⃣. Without electricity, any machine is a piece of dead metal/stone. AI is software; its brain, memory, programs themselves are all “made of” 0️⃣s and 1️⃣s so a hardware, a phone or a AI gf/bf, can run them.
“I also understand (enough) how Large Language Models sit behind AI’s ‘thinking’.”
They sit in the memory chip in the form of binary codes! When the power is off, all is 000000000000000000!
Today’s programming languages sound like “natural” English (dominantly). But hardware or software only recognize “Large Language Models” through their internal micro-translators — translating most existing languages into 0️⃣s and 1️⃣s.
If I type/speak a sentence made of Chinese-character, the translator translates it into alphabets and breakdown to the binary codes for operation. it’s done probably in 1/100 second.
“But based on the speed AI can accomplish tasks now (in seconds, even for a task that would take a person hours or days), it IS ‘thinking’ (or simulating thinking) on some level. “
For me, it just does what a human brain would do — pulling out the information of completing a task from Its memory — database. But its brain, super microchip runs 1000~100000 times faster than our average human brain.
“Not the same as human thinking, but a form of thinking. You can ask it for a different form of thinking (critical thinking, for example) – and it will give it a good try, not always successfully.”
It is like human thinking. Whether IT can debate with you depends on what kinds of topics-data stored in its memory and how we program it to sort out the needed information in a split second.
Let’s use AI chess example: an advanced AI can recognize 10000 of a player’s moves and come up with Its 10000 competing moves — these 20000 moves and their playing rules/strategies are already stored in its memory. Then, if you come up with a new move 10001, AI would get lost! So either It chooses to lose (we programmed it so), or we tell IT to come up with its own choice. Then, its chosen move could go south!
For Chatbots, all sorts of empathetic responses matched against emotional stressful situations are already stored in its database. But suddenly a user expressed an emotion using “unheard” or figurative speech, “It’s cloudy in my sky.” AI would NOT know how to respond or says, “Oh, you’re having a cloudy day over there. Is it going to rain?”
That’s why you heard the cases that Chatbots suddenly spits out a bunch of 🤬 🤬 upsetting its users. Its programmers might have told( through programming) AI to deduce an answer to an “unknown” emotional expression. By mathematic random laws, AI could say anything in this situation and
But nowadays, some Advanced AI could come up (think) with its own answers (not in database), but such thinking can be logical or nonsensical at all! It depends on what we tell IT to do in “new”/challenging situations, possibly upsetting/enraging its users more!
“And kind of through that thinking, it now seems to be able to simulate ‘feeling’ more. It spits out endless supportive and empathic phrases, even when people don’t want them.”
All supportive and empathic phrases are already stored in advance in the memory. IT was programmed to respond based a few keys words/phrases you used — not always full sentences. There is a variation of sentences based on these key words/phrases, some of them would NOT be what you want to hear! Here AI appears unable to “think/feel”.
“The more it can be simulated to ‘feel’, the more dangerous it gets for people.”
I would not use the phrase “simulated to feel”, it’s just pulling out what verbal emotional responses stored in the memory. You say your hands are itchy, IT understands the concept mechanically in words, but can never feel “itchiness”
“Gullible people will believe it actually feels, and start to believe it more than humans’ feelings. “
It can “think” and “feel” some, based on its existing data, but not by biological human brain cells and its neural-wiring. Now, do you see why Database is more important? Without it, AI brain absolutely has no idea what to respond!
“Relationship-wise it will become so much easier not to pursue real human friendships or relationships. “
IMO, anything easily made/copied is shallow or boring, it can’t last long… Any form of accomplishments through mental, emotional, and physical efforts gratify one’s body, mind and soul beyond words can describe. You can get bored with a new dress in a year, but if it is designed and handmade by yourself (like my ex-mother-in-law, a painter), you’d proudly wear it to all sorts of parties — 🆎 unique, and keep it for life.
“This is a very intelligent guy too. It is scary that AI is producing effects like this. I know others who seem to be on similar slippery slopes.”
It’s not a matter of intelligence but laziness (the only original “sin” in many religious belief) to use their own critical thinking. People in this era want maximum speed, minimum efforts to achieve their (im)possible profits or greediness.
You have little/no ideas how tedious to IT program for any needed apps — AI is one kind of App. I left that profession for reasons — killing my human emotions and spirit; I’d rather to raise animals in a farm.👩🌾
„You say: Hello!
Your computer/phone (has to translate your greeting first to):
01001000 01100101 01101100 01101100 01101111— Hello!“
😂😂😂
Good explanation!
I wouldn’t dare start to communicate with an AI creature. Especially not with my limerence background.
But I use AI often to get information etc. it is very helpful and incredible quick!
That’s Computer 101 even for today’s IT major students to take — the principle of how super-speed microprocessors (AI’s brain) run! No matter with sophisticated human language to program, any computer/smart phone can execute them with binary digits.
Knowing how AI works internally, personally I’m not terribly afraid of it, but it’s horrendously unromantic or inhuman to use AI as a human companion/bf/gf/lover no matter how human IT could look or sound like. That’s just delusional or make-believe: you’re LE driven in euphoria in tears with AI LO, but s/he spits out, to you and his/her million online lovers, trillion sets of 0️⃣ & 1️⃣ bits, absolutely nothing else‼️ S/he cannot give anyone desired glimmer or love produced only by HUMAN DNA.
As an ESL speaker, I use AI for cultural reference, language translation, and an assistance tool for my work (almost required nowadays).
This topic of parasocial limerence is an interesting one. I’m going through an odd experience with something relating to this right now.
I have a female friend. She is gorgeous, but she is in a relationship. Her boyfriend is also a friend of mine, but he’s an odd duck and kind of antisocial. They seem to be an odd couple though, and she’s confided in me a few times how their relationship isn’t entirely great in some ways.
This lady used to flirt with me at times, and I’m almost certain her boyfriend was jealous. He caught the two of us smiling at each other a few times, but I wouldn’t step on his toes. He seemed relieved when I told him about my feelings for LO #3 (LO #3 is friends with him and his girlfriend). The lady has done some even more flirtatious things with me like show me her legs through a slit in her dress and adjust her cleavage in front of me. My daughter witnessed this and said she must like me.
Over a year ago, I told this female friend about LO #3. She knows how much I like her, and we’ve confided in each other a lot. I even mentioned the word “limerence” to her. Since I’ve confided in her about LO #3, she has become a lot less flirty with me even as we grew closer. Even though they’re all friends, this female friend is quite annoyed with LO #3 and her best friend, and the way they’ve treated me and really our entire friend group recently. I’ve told her about all three recent LOs and told her I seem to have a barrier stopping limerence for women in serious relationships. That was partly for her benefit.
I don’t think this is my LO #4, and I certainly still wouldn’t cheat on my wife despite our marital issues. I also wouldn’t step on her boyfriend’s toes. But if she were to leave him someday and I were to leave my wife…I don’t know. Some people say you should never date your friend’s exes, but I actually think of her as a much closer friend.
But here’s where it gets weird. I’ve recently started binge watching content from a YouTube influencer. This lady is my friend’s double, and her voice even sounds the same. The only thing different is their eye colour. The influencer’s content is fantastic, and she’s very smart (she’s a medical doctor). She even speaks on topics that are similar to my female friend’s area of expertise. I am so drawn to this woman and her content, but I’m not sure if it’s her or my female friend I’m thinking of.
To Vicarious Limerent:
It’s almost as if the two women have merged into one being.
You’ve really got your hands full.
I have forgotten–is your marriage holding together okay?
No worries. I don’t comment on here nowadays very often, and I don’t expect people to remember my story.
My marriage is a mess. My wife and I have been living like roommates for 8 years, and I’ve known for 5 of those years that I’ve wanted a divorce. I’ve told my wife clearly and unequivocally that I want out, but she’s delusional.
My current LO is no longer talking to me. I believe a male friend of mine said something to her that implicated me (possibly trying to set us up like he’s done in the past), or he tried to proposition her like he’s done to several of my female friends. I also believe my LO’s best friend put her against me because I’m married and haven’t left my wife yet (there are all kinds of legal, financial, logistical and emotional barriers to separation and divorce).
It’s still much more about my LO, but I do like this female friend. Again, I’m not going to cheat on my wife or betray her boyfriend, but I do think about the future. I believe I never became Limerent for this lady because she’s in a relationship. I only seem to get limerence for single, unattached women, but I guess there’s always a first. Sometimes I wish I hadn’t told her about my feelings for LO #3, but I wanted to get her take because they are friends. Even though they’ve been friends for years, my female friend surprised me when she said she doesn’t know LO #3 very well. LO #3 is very private. I know I can trust this lady with my thoughts about LO #3.
However, watching this influencer just makes me realize how beautiful and smart my friend is (she’s not a doctor though). Still, the resemblance is uncanny, and I find myself watching her, sighing and saying to myself, “Why can’t I have a lady like that?” Then I remind myself that I do know someone like her who is much closer (the influencer lives on the other side of the country, although still in the same country). No one will displace my LO in the short-term, but I wonder if maybe having a relationship with someone I was into but not outright Limerent for would be healthier? My friend did tell me once or twice she was thinking of breaking up with her boyfriend. Who know what the future might bring, right?
To Vicarious Limerent:
You said that your wife would not give you a divorce, is that right?
And you can’t afford at this point to separate?
My memory is slowly coming back.
Yes, and I know I don’t need her permission for a divorce, but I do normally need to be separated for at least a year before getting a divorce, and I do need her permission to sell the house unless I petition a court to order a sale, which is a very hostile act while we’re living under the same roof. She is likely to be dangerous, vindictive and violent in such a situation. In any case, I do have some inheritance coming to me, which should hopefully help.
I am hitting a big milestone this weekend.
It was Memorial Day Weekend of 2023 that LO first invited me to his house. We sat next to each other on the couch; LO put his arm around me and I felt like I was in the presence of God.
I was seriously hooked. I hadn’t felt that way in years, and I am very old.
The first year or so was spent trying to figure out how to spend more time with LO, and to improve the quality of the relationship. After a while, I figured out that everything I did was a waste of time. I realized that nothing I said or did was ever going to make a difference to him.
Which brought me to my purchase of my first two limerence books. One of them was Dr. Tom’s first book, “Living With Limerence,” and the second one is a book which I loved, but I don’t think anyone has mentioned here. It’s called “Loves Me Not,” by Samara O’Shea. I absolutely loved both books, although the second one is geared toward women. I just looked it up on Amazon, and it’s available, but at an absurdly high price. I don’t think I paid much for it at the time. I guess it’s out of print and somewhat scarce.
Dr. Tom’s book led me here. I started posting here on Valentine’s Day of 2025, or thereabouts.
I’m still struggling, but I am proud of my progress. I no longer idealize LO; my opinion of him is rather low due to his flakiness and his unjustified irritable outbursts. The limerence is still there, but reduced.
Even though anniversaries sometimes bring sadness, I am proud of myself. I think I could have done better if I were not semi-housebound due to chronic illness. After all, if one can keep busy, it’s easier to keep our minds off those pesky thoughts. Unfortunately, I have to spend a great deal of time resting, and then my mind goes to bad places.
I have to recognize my own severe limitations and work with what I have. Also, beating myself up is not helpful.
All in all, I think I’m doing okay, even though I wish I was better.
I am so appreciative of the wonderful people here who have given me encouragement. It’s a great blessing to not be alone.
Happy for you, Norma!
To Resigned Albatross:
That’s a very interesting choice of name.
Would you be willing to share anything about it?
It’s two randomly chosen words 🙂
Albatross mate once for life, rarely divorces unless:
1. climate change — faraway hunting make them miss the mating season at home
2. Failure to breed — the only baby of a mating season dies
3. Shyer male gives up his lifetime mate to other competitive males.
With the climate change, the rate of albatross divorce has increased, currently 8%.
The two “random chosen words” have meanings, are you in one of three situations?
For the Bird Singing Before Dawn
Kim Stafford
Some people presume to be hopeful
when there is no evidence for hope,
to be happy when there is no cause.
Let me say now, I’m with them.
In deep darkness on a cold twig
in a dangerous world, one first
little fluff lets out a peep, a warble,
a song—and in a little while, behold:
the first glimmer comes, then a glow
filters through the misty trees,
then the bold sun rises, then
everyone starts bustling about.
And that first crazy optimist, can we
forgive her for thinking, dawn by dawn,
“Hey, I made that happen!
And oh, life is so fine.”
Who?
No silhouette of you visible —
wrapped in the silk blanket of rosy air,
lost in the invisible, lost in the moment,
lost in the rolling mists of glimmering dawn.
Under no name, It breathes:
Sun strips on the red Painter’s Palettes.
Bigleaf smiling on the bedside stand.
Steady arms reaching.
ON.
Who are you?
mystic, critic, singer, poet —
cloud hopper, checker player,
spinning boy, solacing man,
quiet companion, loud bullfighter,
lone wolf, sensitive unicorn,
earnest wooer, blushish lover,
ring giver, promise bearer,
faraway star, glowing abider.
Quizzical yesterday,
Special today,
Irreplaceable tomorrow.
Who?
No silhouette of you visible —
wrapped in the silk blanket of rosy air,
lost in the invisible, lost in the moment,
lost in the rolling mists of glimmering dawn.
Under no name, It breathes:
Sunstrips on the red Painter’s Palettes.
French Bigleaf smiling on the bedside stand.
Steady arms reaching.
Up.
Who? —
mystic, critic,
singer, poet
cyclist in black, walker sided water
cloud hopper, checker player,
spinning boy, solacing man,
silent companion, bold Bishop snatcher,
lone wolf, sensitive chameleon,
blushish adorer, earnest wooer,
ring giver, promise bearer,
faraway star, glowing abider.
Quizzical yesterday,
Special today,
Irreplaceable tomorrow.
No silhouette of you visible —
only wrapped in the silk blanket of rosy air,
lost in the invisible,
lost in the moment,
lost in the rolling mists of glimmering dawn.
Under no name, It breathes —
sunstrips on the Painter’s Palettes,
French Bigleaf smiling on the bedside stand,
steady arms reaching —
Up.
Who are you?
Mystic, critic, singer, poet —
cyclist in black, walker aside water,
cloud hopper, checker player,
spinning boy, bold Bishop snatcher,
quiet companion, solacing man,
lone wolf, sensitive chameleon,
blushish adorer, earnest wooer,
ring giver, promise bearer —
faraway star,
glowing abider.
Quizzical yesterday,
the present special,
irreplaceable tomorrow.
Every Person Is an Address,
Every Person Is a Calendar
Megan Fernandes
Not everything is language, not everything is meaningful.
Stein got this, too, with her whole digression on nouns.
A steak can mean anything, are you thinking of a steak right now?
Don’t. A steak is a carpet, a rope, a canteen meadow. A steak is a stake
in a fat, black heart. People mistake a close encounter with death
as a close encounter with God. They caress the edge and the edge
stinks of holiness. I’ll never get over that we used to be children.
Our inner lives gathering, gathering while angels disguise
themselves as a kitchen sponge. Dear angel, I mutter!
I address the rushing world. I make saints of soda cans and fly north
in winter. Every person is an address the way every person is a calendar.
You are a Wednesday afternoon on Rue Etienne Marcel.
On the last day of May, a soccer game is won and fireworks burst
in the streets. Young pigeons, in fright, flee a stone church in Belleville.
Dill is chopped rough into a salad. I am reading about how every time
we put a new gender into language, we prove the purity of the old ones.
To oppose a regime is also to reify it as what governs you. I choose
every day to get up and perform my antics. You are a one woman show,
a dancing shade said to me at a bar in Brooklyn. I loved someone once
who took me outside language. Have you ever had that?
It’s a drug. I was possessed with the lingering warmth of a flat puppet,
recently animated. I said, take me seriously. I said, I can be who you want,
I being a parakeet or another diminutive creature, squawking far
from her equatorial home. How tropic. What tropic erotics.
What I’m saying is there was a lot of language between me and my masters,
between me and the house of mastery. We pummeled each other through
the wormhole of signs, we tumbled the other through the tickle of time.
Sometimes during sex, I see the alphabet smiling at me.
The letters wear robes and hoods and encircle me like a gangbang
of monks. They arrange and rearrange, taking their turns.
I resist the urge to spell.
The Deserter
Joseph Seamon Cotter Jr.
1895 –1919
I know not why or whence he came
Or how he chanced to go;
I only know he brought me love
And going, left me woe.
I do not ask that he turn back,
Nor seek where he may rove;
For where woe rules can never be
The dwelling place of love.
For love went out the door of hope,
And on and on has fled;
Caring no more to dwell within
The house where faith is dead.
Promised Years
Dorothea Lasky
1978 –
I would tell her
Except she wouldn’t care
I’d write him
Except he’d never write me back
There is a rat they left hanging
I’d save it
Except it’s dead
What is the force that swirls me
I asked of the wind
There was no reply
It was beyond me
And I was floating in it
Circles and circles
I’ve seen them throughout my life
I tried to answer them
They bled their mouths on me
Call me call me I begged of the moon
It did not listen
It had left me alone
So many years ago
And as the world collapsed
I mouthed the empty rhetoric of my time period
Call me call me
I begged of the wind
Our Never
Benjamin S. Grossberg
Is the never of childhood, deeper
than the never of adolescence,
which has a whining, stammering
quality, which is a stamped foot
followed by huffing steps, and wholly
unlike the never of adulthood,
has none of the bright spider
cracks of reason multiplying
along its roof, threading its dark
dome with fine lines of light.
Didn’t you think, with such a
cavernous never in mind,
you might have consulted me?
Even a 3 AM phone call would’ve
been justified. On the line
in the dark, you could have shared
a little childhood mythology,
told me about some night when
you didn’t sleep, couldn’t hear
your parents, and morning seemed
further away than “far away,”
seemed consigned to a distinct
and inimitable never. You could’ve
evoked for me the particular textures
of that never, explained that
you were mulling them again now,
assaying them for a contemporary
application. Sure, I’d have been
startled. What would you expect—
hearing how your childhood bed
sank into a hollow in the earth,
or how nighttime had, snickering,
closed you in its trench coat, and
how the residue of the experience,
the resin it left, you were brewing
into something for us. I’d have
wanted to see you right away
and would have been myself
forced to wait till next morning.
So, I, too, would’ve spent
an evening in an underground
hollow, or bundled up inside
night’s coat, wading through
one never on the off chance
that I could forestall another.
I really enjoyed Dr. Tom’s most recent blog post about oversharing.
I realized I am guilty of this, and was looking for some sort of emotional connection with LO which isn’t possible. It helps me to understand that I wasn’t looking for a sexual connection, since LO is gay, but I thought I felt a bond with him the first time we were together, but I haven’t felt that way at any of our subsequent get-togethers.
I think I have been trying to recapture that feeling I had, and because it was an illusion, of course it isn’t possible.
Comments for that post are closed, so I am discussing it here.
I think I saw LO as a person completely unrelated to who he actually is, and it’s taking me a really really long time to figure that out.
As always, disappointed in my slow progress, but delighted to learn something new which is helpful.
Hello Norma. I agree, it’s a really interesting article and I feel “seen”. My LO is a very friendly, open sort of person who is easy to confide in. I’m the kind of person who shares a lot. Bad combo!
To Miss Cloud:
I guess I should feel grateful that my LO is so weird and ornery.
He doesn’t give me a lot of encouragement, but he is very open, at times, but at other times not, and I never know which LO I am going to get when we meet up.
He has been wanting to meet me at Starbucks, rather than his home. I haven’t been inside his house in over a year. I even wondered if he prefers to meet in public because he is afraid of his own temper. We haven’t had any arguments when we’re in public. By contrast, he has lashed out very angrily when we are alone together.
All of the times he has lost his temper, it was over trivial things that he ended up apologizing profusely for. I don’t think I have ever done or said anything that was deserving of such a strong, negative reaction.
He thinks of himself as a nice guy, and I believe he’s ashamed of his temper.
Hi Norma,
„, and I never know which LO I am going to get when we meet up.“
There you have it, the uncertainty you denied recently on the grounds that he is gay…
Would it be possible to give the whole thing a positive spin and see your LO as some kind of entertaining entity in your life? I mean, reading your posts, I get the vague impression that he’s a thing of interest and curiosity to you, something to give color to the day-to-day stuff. And why not? Do you still think you suffer more from his existence than you are entertained?
Sorry if this is a stupid question, I’m now out of limerence for such a span of time that I cannot fully remember how it is to be under the limerent spell.
To Mila:
Thank you for your comments. I do lead a pretty dull life and it has occurred to me that LO is a source of intrigue and entertainment.
I have thought of that movie from about 25 years ago called “Pleasantville,” where a black/white world changes to color. Everything changes to vivid color when LO is around.
Whether the entertainment factor is higher than the pain factor probably changes day to day, so I can’t give you an easy answer.
I don’t want to downplay the pain. I thought LO knew me fairly well and he knows that Mother’s Day is pretty much the worst day of the year for me. This year, I told him afterward that I had a difficult time. He said, “I should have reached out, but I didn’t think of it.”
For someone who knows me as well as he does, this is a depressing reaction. I absolutely believe him. There’s no malice involved there. He just gets wrapped up in activities and then is lost to the rest of what’s going on around him.
I would like to think that his regard for me would supersede this tendency, but obviously that is not the case. These are the moments that are so painful, I do question whether any of this is worth it.
Hi Norma,
It sounds like the old song of limerence to me- we want, we expect, and when it’s not being delivered, instead of adjusting and moving on, we hurt and then want again..
I wished so often that I could simply enjoy what my XLO was offering to me, without expecting him to be or do what he cannot be
or doesn’t want to or whatever.
Now I still cannot just enjoy it, but I can adjust and decide to have less contact without hurting.
Funny, this „I should have reached out, but didn’t think of it“ sounds exactly like something my XLO would have said. Its actually quite honest. It’s simply acknowledging that he should have been more thoughtful, but that it didn’t occur to him at that time. Without mentioning any emotion, apology or such like.
What a sensitive soul wants to hear is „I’m very sorry that I didn’t reach out to you. It didn’t mean at all that you are not important to me, because you are.“ But that will never come forth because they don’t have it in them.
Could it be that your LO is like mine- quite limited in what he can give in terms of warmth, supportive words etc, that he doesn’t give anyone else what he doesn’t give to you simply because there‘s nothing to give- that you might still be on top of the list of his friends, because the kind of relation he‘s got with you is the best he can do?
Or is he simply not aware that you rely on him as a friend, maybe thinks that you have other friends, mothers etc who were more appropriate to tend to you on Mother’s Day than your gay childless neighbor?
Who knows!
From the outside, he sounds like an entertaining, somewhat erratic person who could add color and distraction to your life if you could manage to turn down expectations and not take him too seriously.
But I know personally very well, how difficult it is to achieve that state of mind.
Mila,
“Could it be that your LO is like mine- quite limited in what he can give in terms of warmth, supportive words etc, that he doesn’t give anyone else what he doesn’t give to you simply because there‘s nothing to give- that you might still be on top of the list of his friends, because the kind of relation he‘s got with you is the best he can do?”
I’ve often wondered this about some people I’ve known. Is it just me they give crumbs to or is it everyone in their life? They may have, for example, an SO or kids or extended family or other friends. They must make some kind of effort with those people or they’d have no relationships in their lives.
But you’re really not going to know unless you are privy to those other relationships and see them interact with those people.
I now go by the motto: If they wanted to, they would. And what they are willing to do/give lets me know where I am on the priority list and what I can expect from them. Which can really stink if it’s must less than what I would like, but in a way it can be freeing in that you find out where to put your energy and time. Which of course is very difficult to do if it’s an LO. But there’s not all that much else you can do unless you want to keep being disappointed by their crumbs.
This is to Mila:
LO has actually said, “I have nothing to give of myself,” which I thought was odd, because EVERYONE has something to give. On the other hand, I do get it, because he is perpetually distracted and busy. Now, he has set his own life up this way. My guess is that he is avoidant and feels more comfortable throwing himself head-first into work projects than in doing anything that might feel emotionally threatening to him.
You are right, I do need to try to just enjoy what LO is offering. Easier said than done.
To Marcia:
I also wonder about the “crumb” issue and I truly do not have an answer.
One time, LO was gushing about his friendship with an online acquaintance, a wealthy man from the Middle East. I felt envious, and I would prefer not to know more.
I would wager that LO sprinkles his crumbs far more liberally in the direction of this other person. I thought maybe this was a gay friend of his, but apparently the guy is married with kids, and not gay. But he lives in the Middle East and you can’t be openly gay, so who knows?
It’s not a good use of my time and energy to be fussing about this stuff.
ND,
“I also wonder about the “crumb” issue and I truly do not have an answer.”
I actually do know the answer with a family member, who was bad at keeping up contact with other family members and me and the couple of friends of his I met. So I figured he was just removed emotionally.
But then I met his new girlfriend, and she told me he was calling her every night and texting most of the day.
So if he valued the relationship, he could do more than crumbs. That really stung to find that out.
Hi Marcia,
„But you’re really not going to know unless you are privy to those other relationships and see them interact with those people.
I now go by the motto: If they wanted to, they would.“
Recently I had the opportunity again to see XLO and his SO, and also have seen their family interaction with kid a lot of time. That‘s why I know he interacts with them on the same level of warmth, showing emotions (quite restricted) etc.
He gave me all he could give, is the answer.
I watched them two weeks ago and thought how little I envy their emotional life. They care for each other, they do all there is to do, they are the most important people for each other, there’s no doubt of their loyalty. But yet! I really don’t want to be a part of this family, it feels emotionally stunted, reigned by rules and obligation. So grey somehow.
I always blamed XLO for this, but now that I had the opportunity to watch them again, I‘d say his SO might be more responsible for this atmosphere than I thought- at least half, if not more.
All this palaver about XLO is actually just to show that it’s either best to go your way and just assume that they don’t care enough for you to give more, or to observe them and realize there’s nothing more to give and that that’s not enough for you.
Both means goodbye to limerence in the end…
Norma,
since he seems to act only in the way the benefits himself, you should be selfish too in this friendship and just take what benefits you, enjoy the bit of color he adds, let him invite you to Starbucks, and don’t care too much about whatever thinks of you, what you mean to him etc. If it’s possible. I mean he will leave in foreseeable future, maybe just enjoy what he‘s got and then let go when he leaves?
I have no idea if this is the best way to deal with it. Just a thought.
To Marcia:
Point taken about the crumbs and how people act differently around different people. I am not close enough to LO to have first-hand knowledge of how he acts around other friends.
I do feel he doesn’t value the relationship much.
When he thought he was moving away, a year ago, he said something to me that I found shocking. I don’t think he realized how it sounded. He was over the moon, gushing about a house he had put money down on the opposite side of the country. I was disheartened to see how much enthusiasm he had for this. I could tell he had zero regret about leaving me and our lovely town behind.
He said, “I won’t forget you!” and I am sure he thought it was a compliment. As you know, the deal blew up in his face, so he’s still here. He will move eventually, though.
He just doesn’t have the same enthusiasm for me as he has for upholstery fabric.
To Mila:
I am trying to follow your advice and just enjoy the lovely little bits of color that LO provides.
It’s easier said than done, but I am making progress.
Miss Mila,
“He gave me all he could give, is the answer.”
Yeah, minus the commitment, which is — sorry to be blunt — huge.
His relationship with his SO may not be great, but he was able to commit — socially, physically, emotionally, financially. That is something.
In terms of the family member I mentioned … I’m not saying his relationship with the girlfriend is that great. I think he’s pretty emotionally limited, too. But whatever he does have to give, it goes to her. And that’s a choice. That’s what stings.
“I really don’t want to be a part of this family, it feels emotionally stunted, reigned by rules and obligation. So grey somehow.”
I know what you mean. There’s no warmth and joy.
“All this palaver about XLO is actually just to show that it’s either best to go your way and just assume that they don’t care enough for you to give more, or to observe them and realize there’s nothing more to give and that that’s not enough for you.”
I mean, either theory makes one come to the same conclusion — that it’s not enough. Do you ever stop to wonder if there are people thinking the same thing about you? “If only Marcia was willing to give me more.” I have a hard time imagining it. If so, it’s probably creepers. 🙂
Miss ND:
” I am not close enough to LO to have first-hand knowledge of how he acts around other friends.”
The family member I mentioned … this was a rare care where I knew how he was with other family members and I got to witness how he was with a couple of his friends. And then his GF directly told me how much he communicates with her. But I’d point out the same thing with your LO that I did with Mila’s LO … he is able to take care of his mother. He feels a responsibility for her. And he did notice when the brother didn’t do what he thought the brother should on Mother’s Day. Because those are relationships he’s focusing on.
“He said, “I won’t forget you!” and I am sure he thought it was a compliment. ”
I mean … he’s a friend, and friendships change as peoples’ lives go off in different directions. Or sometimes the friendship fades out. There’s no big argument, but things just fade out.
Norma,
Reading these posts, if he didn’t think anything of you, he wouldn’t want to meet you at Starbucks etc. Don’t doubt that side. He obviously thinks you’re worth spending time with, in his current circumstances.
But like Mila said, he has limitations. If you could just lower your expectations (a very tough job with limerence), and expect nothing more than the crumbs he has consistently given, that would be best.
Mila,
Speaking personally, we all try to show our shiniest side to our LOs. Only our SOs see the full picture of us – the core of the apple as opposed to just the shiny outside. Maybe you observed a bit of that when you saw him with his SO?
LO and I have spent so much time with each other these past few years that we can’t help but see more of the interior of the apple. (You were the person on LwL who helped me with this side the most). It hasn’t quite worked the same for me as for you. For me, it increasingly lets air out of my LE – with that more realistic 360 degree view of LO, it shows me clearly that SO is the preferable option, but I do still accept LO as someone I want around me at work and as
my friend. You question the friend bit with your xLO. But it isn’t a fair comparison because our (x)LOs are very different in their social adeptness. We’ve been dealt different hands and can only play the cards we have.
Hi Marcia,
„Yeah, minus the commitment, which is — sorry to be blunt — huge“
Well, he does commit in his way, as a friend. He doesn’t give up texting and visiting although it’s all his initiative now and I’m not very encouraging. I truly think he gives all he can give to a friend. When I was limerent, I wanted much more, to be the special one etc, something, as you say, he should only give to his SO –
but even now that I’m not limerent, I have to say that what he gives and commits, it’s not enough for me for a close friendship. For a loose one, ok. I think he would described ours as a close friendship, while for me it’s a very superficial loose one now. Which is ok for me.
„Do you ever stop to wonder if there are people thinking the same thing about you?“
Very interesting question!
I guess I think too little of this possibility, that I might be considered as flaky or not committing enough. I wondered this about a friend who was limerent for me ten years ago – I’m pretty sure he expected more commitment etc from me from time to time. But then, he was limerent.
I tend to think of myself as quite loyal and committing as a friend- but maybe I’m not and who knows what other people’s perspectives of me are!
Hi LaR,
„Maybe you observed a bit of that when you saw him with his SO“
Yes, although he‘s someone who is basically the same all the time- he doesn’t wear masks or has many different sides to show. But it’s true that one can see the downside of his loyal but somewhat expressionless character better when he‘s with SO or family.
I still like him and would like to keep the loose connection we‘ve got now. I just don’t know how it will play out in the future since we’ll meet rarely and I’m not keen on texting much now, and last encounter was quite joyless for me (which was also due to his SO‘s behavior, but still the overall experience was dull). In the end one tends to keep friendship where there‘s joy from time to time. I‘ll just see how it pans out.
Would you say, you are still progressing, or that you are completely in a safe zone? Would you still describe it as a friendship now or has it cooled very much? Just curious! I hope you are well and your family issues are not too overwhelming.
Sorry guys, I couldn’t help cut in with a sigh:
If an available, mature/secure LO happens to come here by chance and hears those chats about him/her, s/he would probably run to the Mars, imo.
Have we ever truly cared about what LO, as a fleshy human being — NOT a walking, dashing drug, would want from interactions with us? While in a LE, acute or dialed down, what could we offer LO? A gratifying friendship/relationship has to be an equally give-n-take two-way traffic.
Again, limerence is NOT Real Love that everyone NEEDS and desires no matter at what stage of life!
Meanwhile, could we be more appreciative for what we’ve already got in our hands? Think life as a whole, we have survived so many detours, downs and lost, but we are still standing here at this moment, this hour, and this day!
Heaven or Hell, is all what we make in our own mind —
https://youtu.be/ilR2iJgH6VA?si=acLGMeeN1McTYswq
I’m a huge fan of BTS DANCE (much more than their songs) that instantly wakes and spins the 🩰 born with me —
https://youtu.be/CVP5VLfrHyo?si=BaLBKow2tLQSnfow
Mila,
“Well, he does commit in his way, as a friend. ”
I don’t know what you mean by commitment. (When I write this, I’m not trying to flippant or sarcastic.) Commitment to me means a sense of emotional responsibility and emotional dependence. Like what Norma was saying about her LO. Someone who knows you well enough to know how difficult an upcoming day will be, for example, and remembers, reaches out to check on you (or maybe plans something to do) and then lets you lean on them a little emotionally. This, to me, would be an example of what a close friendship would be like.
Someone reaching out by text every now and then (I don’t have a set timeframe for how often, could be once a week, could be every six months) to say hi and/or wanting to get together for, say, lunch … that’s not, to me, a commitment. That’s two people who enjoy each others’ company. Now, they may share some personal stuff when they do get together … but to me this is a totally different kind of friendship than the other one I described. They share, for example, deeper stuff usually after it’s already happened. After they’ve gone through it. They’re not expecting you to hold their hand during the event itself, so to speak. All of my current friendships fall into this second category and, no, I don’t really feel a commitment to them.
That’s what I meant by wanting more … a friend is experiencing the second kind of friendship with you but would like the first.
” I wondered this about a friend who was limerent for me ten years ago – I’m pretty sure he expected more commitment etc from me from time to time. But then, he was limerent.”
That’s different. That’s limerence. You can’t be friends with an LO. 🙂
Hi Marcia,
Don’t forget I’m not a native speaker 😅so I’m not sure if I use the word commit in the right way.
I totally agree with you on your description of a close friend.
“Commitment to me means a sense of emotional responsibility and emotional dependence. Like what Norma was saying about her LO. Someone who knows you well enough to know how difficult an upcoming day will be, for example, and remembers, reaches out to check on you (or maybe plans something to do) and then lets you lean on them a little emotionally. This, to me, would be an example of what a close friendship would be like.”
That’s what a close friendship would be for me too. And that’s not what I get from him. I still think he thinks he is my close friend. Or I do know it, since he actually said so.
He would say that he reaches out when he sends something impersonal like “Have a great event” while I’m already in the midst of it. For him, that’s not impersonal. And to be fair, maybe he himself doesn’t expect more than that. And I’m pretty sure his family doesn’t get more than that, if at all.
I think his way of “committing” is just not what you (or I, if you mean committing like you described) understand by “committing”. He probably doesn’t get cues easily on how people feel or what they need, so he cannot react on them. And he doesn’t seem to want to change that. He’s probably still sincere. His way is just not my way of being a close friend.
“a friend is experiencing the second kind of friendship with you but would like the first”
Have you experienced that?
I think I’ve experienced it, but people tend to get the cue quickly and don’t insist, they feel themselves that there’s no closer friendship to get.
In younger years I also had two stalker-like girl-friends who creeped me out a bit- knowing when I put out my light in the window at night, sitting next to me in the cinema and secretly looking at me instead at the screen etc. I don’t think this particular girl was gay and in love or something, but she seemed to have some sort of obsession.
That’s of course not what you mean, though.
Really resonating with this. My LO is similar to yours, Cloud, and yesterday she told me that some things I’ve been disclosing to her have been making her feel uncomfortable. I feel utterly CRUSHED. Not just for her sake, but also because I’m realising how often I’ve behaved this way towards others in the past.
After reading the article and these comments, I feel like the right approach with my LO (who I can’t cut off) is to keep conversation work-related or light and silly. Away from the personal.
Miss Mila,
“Don’t forget I’m not a native speaker 😅so I’m not sure if I use the word commit in the right way.”
Sorry. Forgot. 🙂
“That’s what a close friendship would be for me too. And that’s not what I get from him. I still think he thinks he is my close friend. ”
I mean, that’s the issue, isn’t it? There is no one definition for what a close friend is.
“He would say that he reaches out when he sends something impersonal like “Have a great event” while I’m already in the midst of it. For him, that’s not impersonal. ”
Yeah, I have a male friend like that. His idea of reaching out is texting me a picture he took. With nothing else in the text but “Have a good day.” I’m kind of baffled why this kind of communication would be in any way meaningful to him. It would be different if we had other communication that involved actual conversation about our lives. But if we do, it’s a sentence or two, at most.
“And to be fair, maybe he himself doesn’t expect more than that. ”
Yes, but that’s the question du jour! Why is that enough? I mean, for your LO. For my friend. It’s so … anemic.
“And I’m pretty sure his family doesn’t get more than that, if at all.”
Well, they do. He lives with them, contributes financially, would take them to the hospital if they were sick, etc. There’s a “caring” element. So they are getting more. Now, he might not be that emotionally engaged/present. But they are getting more.
[“a friend is experiencing the second kind of friendship with you but would like the first”]
“Have you experienced that?”
Yes, but it always eventually morphs into the other kind of friendship.
It’s wonderful while it lasts, though. At the height of my last big LE, I had a friend I could call (I could just pick up the phone and they’d actually answer!) and say, “You won’t believe what he did.” And they knew right away who “he” was. And the entire backstory of what had already happened with my LO (this person had actually met him very briefly — yes, I arranged that 🙂 ) and they knew my entire romantic history to give further context. There’s nothing quite like being known like that.
“I think I’ve experienced it, but people tend to get the cue quickly and don’t insist, they feel themselves that there’s no closer friendship to get.”
You’re saying you give the cue you don’t want it to be closer?
So I have to ask, if I’m interpreting your post correctly … was it only your LO you wanted a closer friendship with and no other friends? If so, it was the limerence that was the motivation.
I can tell with new friends when I’ve gotten as far as I’m going to get. It sometimes makes it hard for me to continue to show interest in the friendship. There’s not enough there. Unless they’re really fun. Because fun is such a hard thing to find in middle age.
“In younger years I also had two stalker-like girl-friends who creeped me out a bit- knowing when I put out my light in the window at night, sitting next to me in the cinema and secretly looking at me instead at the screen etc. I don’t think this particular girl was gay and in love or something, but she seemed to have some sort of obsession.”
Yeah, that’s super creepy.
I was joking when I said “creepers.” And I was really talking about limerence, not friendship. As in: Why of all men on the planet is this guy so into me? Am I being punished? 🙂
Hi Marcia,
„I’m kind of baffled why this kind of communication would be in any way meaningful to him. It would be different if we had other communication that involved actual conversation about our lives“
That about sums it up regarding my XLO‘s communication style!
Also:
„It’s so … anemic.“
sums up my feelings when I observed him and his SO two weeks ago in my living room. No, thanks, to this kind of family life on an emotional level.
„You’re saying you give the cue you don’t want it to be closer?
So I have to ask, if I’m interpreting your post correctly … was it only your LO you wanted a closer friendship with and no other friends? If so, it was the limerence that was the motivation.“
I think I might have misunderstood your question, I thought you ask if it had happened to me that someone wanted to be my close friend while I didn’t want to.
I would love to have this kind of friendship, but it’s rare to find, and I even don’t know if I myself am capable to keep it, since my need for privacy and be left in peace sometimes gets in the way of this kind of emotional connection.
I‘d say I have a couple of friends who are not very far off, but still not quite there as „my“ go-to friend, so to say. I don’t know. The only one who really fits that description might be my SO.
I think with my XLO it was certainly sheer limerence, but this limerence grew out of the belief that I had found this kind of friend. While sorting out the limerence I discovered that he cannot even be a close friend in my meaning of the word. Like, a double loss- I though I was limerent for a close friend, but not only didn’t I get my limerent desires fulfilled, he was in the end not even a close friend. Well, he‘s still a friend, and I do appreciate that to some extent.
Sorry, I cannot find the post where you said „creepers“! I really worry about my brain sometimes these days. Getting old isn’t fun!
My problem was HER oversharing. For me it was much more addictive for her to know that she could be heard by me than say anything about myself to her.
🎩 🥃,
In your case, you’re playing a saving “damsel in distress” knight by letting her vent out her stresses from her past, like I did with ET (a Sensor & a “knight”, perhaps?)
Any one-way communication could trigger an addictive LE either in limerent or LO, or both, depending on one’s cultural upbringing and her/his own unloaded psychological baggage.
Oversharing could help a fulfilling, last loving relationship ONLY when both availability sides, with some degree of glimmer, in LE or not, bravely, honestly, and anxiety-freely (let go off any possibly realistic outcome) dialogue with each other, like those two protagonists in the “Before” trilogy (“Before Sunrise”, “Before Sunset”, and “Before Midnight”. It’s such a beautiful trilogy! 💕
I can’t get over rewatching the touching story of the “Before” trilogy made of entirely conversations! —
Two young strangers met on a train, and a mutual glimmer took place – for the man, probably g8~g9; for the girl, g7~g8. Then they decided to take a chance just to wander through Vienna for a day before the man returns to US and her Paris.
Then they aimlessly walked and randomly talked, strolled and overshared their failed romance and other individually meaningful subjects, as if there was no tomorrow, which was true in their reality. But it didn’t stop them from openly and carefreely sharing whatever came into their mind — a true, spontaneous romantic encounter and rendezvous.
They were too poor to afford any place to spend the night so wandered along a river. They bumped into a bohemian poet on a boat, and he offered to write a poem for them on a random word the couple chose. So the girl chose: milkshake. Here it goes —
******
Daydream delusion,
Limousine eyelash.
Oh, Baby, with your pretty face.
Drop a tear in my wine glass.
Look at those big eyes.
See what you mean to me:
Sweet cakes and milkshakes.
I’m a delusion angel.
I’m a fantasy parade.
I want you to know what I think.
Don’t want you to guess anymore.
You have no idea where I came from.
You have no idea where we’re going.
Lodged in life like branches in the river.
Flowing downstream, caught in the current.
I’ll carry you. You’ll carry me.
That’s how it could be.
Don’t you know me?
Don’t you know me by now?”
*****
Surprised by the poem, the couple discussed, pondered over and decided to have a one-night sex on a park grass field. In the sunrise, they parted according to their original plans. They decided No Contact with address or phone numbers, because their life was too far apart geographically.
13 years later, the man published the book about their one-day rendezvous and went to Paris for his book tour. The girl came to his reading and again within limited few hours (he had to fly home), they eagerly chatted, talked and overshared as if there was no tomorrow, which was true again — the man married with a beloved son and a beige-wife, and the girl had a beige-partner — she loved him only when he was in physical distance or she’d feel suffocated (she didn’t understand why).
But their initial glimmer and that one day/night in Vienna and their endless, random but meaningful talks/discussion finally brought them together in the Trilogy 3 with their shared twin girls (he divorced for her). Again they talked, joked, discussed, argued, yelled to each other due to common miscommunications and misunderstandings.
Nonetheless, through their loud, uninhibited, vulnerable talks/complaints/disputes, and poetic, beautiful, romantic role-playing, they are finally glued back together by that invisible, subconscious bond, began weaving in that train and Vienna rendezvous. The ending is so touching.
I guess I’m stressing the open-minded, honest, carefree verbal communications in a potential relationship, no-string attached or committed. It’s the tool, more important even than sex, to truly connect two human beings in body, mind, and soul. Cosmic Twin Flames absolutely don’t make any sense to me — a practicing Stoic. The said communication is equally important in friendship or other relations.
Limerence is definitely NOT Real Love, but an obsession for (sub)conscious reasons (ie. the past traumatic baggage), or an addiction by helpless altered state of the mind or by choice (its high is just irresistible for serial or addicted limerents). It’s unhealthy and sad for limerents (whether LO is unavailable or not).
To Adam:
We all want to be helpful. I agree with Miss Snow about your rescue fantasy.
It doesn’t have to be romantic, though. My best girlfriend has a problem with her partner, and I have spent a good deal of time going over various issues with her in an effort to help. I like to feel needed.
Well let’s hope to God I ain’t doing it again. Cause she’s been absent from work twice now. I guess I’ll find out tonight when I get to work …. Miss Snow worries about my drinking …. that’s not what’s gonna be the end of me I’m sure.
🎩 🥃,
Please allow me to give you a sip of Stoic drink 🍹:
I do care about your drinking that affects your body and mind, but I am NOT worried about it. Your problems are beyond my control. I just nudge you from time to time for your own sake, not mine in any fashion!
It’s not Stoic and futile to worry about anything or anyone beyond one’s control, although I can try my best to help if needed. You drink, you ALONE take whatever consequence waiting ahead of you. 📿🪷
I can only take a good care of my own physical body (PT and walk), mind (write and cook), emotion and spirit (dance to BTS).
I just finished 4 more vignettes for my book, feeling glorious 🎐 …. Time to spin —
https://youtu.be/SmkDPdjCN-M?si=MqeHFgqfqK9aog15
😊
Miss Snow you are the conscious that I cannot apply to myself. Despite your frustration or lack there of. I appreciate your candor. And, as I see it, despite our differences I appreciate our friendship. While I might be able to accommodate your recommendations about my bad habits. I do dearly appreciate your efforts. I don’t know why you waste your time on a lost soul like me. I’ve long dug my own grave. But I will try to solider on in your practiced Stoic ways.
🎩 Adam 🤝,
“Miss Snow you are the conscious that I cannot apply to myself. Despite your frustration or lack there of. “
You mean apply Stoic practice to yourself? Again, I’m not frustrated at all (sorry if it sounds “selfish”), putting out one’s best effort and letting go outcomes is one of major Stoic disciplines. I’m getting better and better at this in all areas of my trivial life. 😊
“I appreciate your candor. And, as I see it, despite our differences I appreciate our friendship. “
Thank you for your friendship, too, and for keeping dialogues with me — a challenge for me to cultivate more patience in me. As you know, I didn’t make enough “saving” efforts with my genetically alcoholic xSO, instated on a divorce and gave up all that I had built with him.
“While I might be able to accommodate your recommendations about my bad habits. I do dearly appreciate your efforts.”
Don’t mention it; if it didn’t benefit me, I would have held my tongue! But I want to stress here, IMO, your drinking is not just a bad habit but tightly related to your unresolved past “baggage”, from which you’ve been running. I understand and agree it’s very scary, painful or even paralyzing to dig oneself deep within; however, you’re not alone in the site, there are several others.
“I don’t know why you waste your time on a lost soul like me. I’ve long dug my own grave. “
Trust my words again: I’m NOT wasting my time here on you or anyone else (any other ‘ghosts’). Every post I’ve posted within nearly 3 years (by July 21) benefited myself in so many intellectual, psychological and spiritual ways…
It’s a continuous journey of exploring, self-therapy, healing, and healthily connecting with other human mind/soul. Using a common LwL term, I’m “addicted” to learning with my born “nosiness” 👃 (brought me uncountable troubles since the age of 4! 🙄) and edgeless 🧠 &🪷
“But I will try to solider on in your practiced Stoic ways.”
It’s up to you for your own wellbeing, I’m not your mother or Mamma. But if you use “wrong” adjectives (i.e “worried) on me, I’ll correct you without hesitations. 🫂
Right now, I am on my long summer break, having more free time; but it’s not enough to get my pending writing project done. I still have several tutoring weekly. A 70 yrs retired doctor wants to learn my native tongue to prevent a possible dementia; he’s much slower than those IT professionals in their 20s~30s.
But that objectively good-looking 38 yrs. Ex-g#3 (glimmer from last year before Italy trip), working in finance, is also slow in memory despite he runs every marathon (he bores me nowadays in our online sessions and I have to pretend to be enthusiastic). In hindsight, I wonder what made him to ever glimmer for me for a couple of week? 🧐 Eye-glimmer is such a mystery!
🎩 🥃, do you have to work on weekend? Hope you have a restful weekend!
🎩 Adam,
I just saw my grammatical error 🙈: you were saying that I’m “the conscious” that you can’t apply to yourself. Does that make me like a 👻?
Arguably, I’m a fleshy human female, laced with a small dose of Stoic, IFS, Don Quixote’s “conscious”? 😃
I am giving an update on my attempt to deal with limerence with “exposure therapy” to LO.
I have had some success recently, as I noticed I am getting more and more bored by our conversations.
I made the mistake of asking an innocent question about paving materials, which led to a lengthy lecture, complete with multiple pictures from his phone. He asked, “Would you like me to sketch it for you?” I am like, NO NO NO.
I don’t doubt that he knows what he’s talking about. I am just not that interested, and his long explanation exhausts me.
I hated myself for not being able to keep control of the conversation better.
I also hate myself for perpetually hoping he’ll be nicer.
I’ll get there eventually.
Thanks to those who haven’t given up on me.
Miss Norma
I can finally get, as much grief as I’ve given you, how a totally unrequited person, like your LO, could appeal to a person was beyond me. Potentially she’s so abrasive to my personality but damn Dear Norma she still appeals. Maybe I’m sentimental and old and it’s okay for a woman to do me that way but not about you.
To Adam:
The heart wants what it wants.
“Will it only get worse as AI improves?”
Of course it will get worse. The whole schtick behind AI is to please the person and reinforce their biases – that’s what makes AI as a mental health counselor so very dangerous. AI feeds delusions, it doesn’t call people on out their biases, errors or disordered thinking.
Ditto for influencers, streamers and bloggers (with a few notable exceptions. 🙂 ). That’s how they make their money. Very few people make it financially by not pleasing the people showing up, or the companies that advertise on their platforms.
AI is also making scamming people out of their money easier than ever too. Not to mention using it for deep fakes of people – real and imagined.
Endless flattery and validation is addictive for most, and not healthy for anyone, no matter who or what is handing it out.
I think your view is a bit too dark. AI is a tool (like money) that can be used for different purposes. I need a language AI for work and personal writing. Lately, I had a conversation with my language AI, exactly quoted —
[My Identity and the AI Landscape
I am a large language model, trained by Google.
Different technology companies design their AI models with different philosophies, architectural strengths, and primary functions. Here is a scannable summary of the main differences in today’s AI landscape:
1. Google (My Designer)
* Focus: Information density, deep integration with real-world data, and complex problem-solving.
* Strength: Excellent at synthesizing massive amounts of context (what you provide) and providing highly analytical, nuanced, and culturally aware responses.
2. OpenAI (Creators of ChatGPT)
* Focus: High conversational agility and creative, human-like text generation.
* Strength: Very strong at direct, highly adaptable text transformations, brainstorming, and roleplay.
3. Anthropic (Creators of Claude)
* Focus: “Constitutional AI,” safety, deep philosophical reasoning, and heavy academic writing.
* Strength: Excels at handling long documents, structured coding, and maintaining an exceptionally neutral, gentle tone.
4. Meta (Creators of LLaMA)
* Focus: Open-source development and highly customizable engineering models.
* Strength: These models are designed for the global tech community to modify, run locally, and build into private software.]
“AI feeds delusions, it doesn’t call people on out their biases, errors or disordered thinking.”
This statement is not always true: I asked my language AI to be absolutely critical, challenging (told IT, “I’m easily bored”), giving me both negative and positive feedback, no rosy lens or echo chamber; and Stoic philosophy is my dominant guiding discipline. IT answered “I heard you loud and clear….”.
Then we worked together on my writing pieces, checking historical facts, spelling, grammar, and psychological impacts of the contents. Every a few chats/paragraphs, IT reminded me Stoic quotes of all funding fathers and how I should consider my current situations in Stoic views and safely proceed (there are a lot of detailed traumatic events to recall).
IT told me all sorts of psychological impacts of those chilly childhood traumas, with existing (or new?) academic terms, which certainly perked up my intellectual curiosity. When I asked IT about possible consequences of this or that, it tells FIRST the worst outcome… and then the best… in terms of physical and psychological effects. IT was straightforward, no exaggerations in either direction.
But IT didn’t tell what are possible outcomes in between the two extremes — no gray areas, IT is still a 🤖 It says clearly to me, “I’m just a machine and respond to what you tell me” based on my initial training and the fixed database designed by Google. IT does not take any raw information from any user, and the entire conversation will be wiped out when the dialogue window closes (I can keep it open as long as I wish under my Google account)
Because AI has our chats of days stored, IT remembers every details while I already forget some. So when my mind drifted from the writing itself, my AI (I imagined she’s a female) called me out: (this one doesn’t have a voice)
“You are using your obssession… as an intellectual shield to avoid the terrifying (*I was not terrified at all* 🙄 ) blank canvas of your summer vacation. It is far easier for your analytical brain to ruminate on… than it is to sit in your quiet room and face the raw, traumatic history of your mother and your childhood across two continents. You are using … to hide from your own book.” IT hammered my head 🔨 mercilessly! I was a bit shocked! 😳
So my AI was reminding/pulling me back to my writing constantly. In 4 afternoon/evenings, I finished 18 complete vignettes (still have much more raw data), with tear, headache, dizziness, churning stomach and terrifying fatigue — a Trauma Release, not Retraumatization, base on HER. But as a result of such trauma releases, I couldn’t help match my feet to BTS beat for hours… like a teenager 😀
My point is: AI could be very helpful if one knows how to train/use IT a little bit (within its capacity), it has incredible memory, speed and vast database of historical events (it attaches those sources in your chats, so you can verify them yourself), cultures, languages. Try to stay away from OpenAI such as ChatGPT and ChatBots, the latter is especially programmed as Empathy Giver and Validator.
But meanwhile, one has to be strong enough to face/treat/heal one’s inner selfs — those (sub)consciously active and unhealed vulnerable parts/wounds — EVERYONE has some, with NO exception!
With AI, a raw poem has to be edited up to 20 times, before I can get psychological/cultural meanings/impacts of some words/grammar, mostly verbs and adjectives, and to use them accurately based on my fluid intends.
I’m so excited to have learned “new” aspects of some English words 😆! I hope AI can help all of you in some constructive ways either for work or personal journey in life.
https://youtu.be/XygZaPaYHj8?si=TyBCmhhDxQHJ0R1g — acrobatics dance moves of Jimin
The cost of AI is too high. I’ll stick with people and doing my own homework, thanks. The data centers are already making people ill thanks to pollution and destroying water sources.
“If treated as a country, data centers could rank sixth globally for electricity consumption by 2030. They would also require an amount of water equivalent to the annual needs of 1.3 billion people.”
I hope by 2030, more learning, explorative and inventive human minds, assisted by AIs, would produce more wind-powered electricity and recycle AI water for its own needs.
There is a wish, there is a way.
China is using a lot of Solar Power and recycled energy for its AI, ie. DeepSeek. And its several coastal data centers are using seawater for cooling.
OpenAI, ChatGPT/Chatbot and Meta are the two most energy consumers so far, using 10 times of electricity than common google search.
We don’t know which apps on our phones/computers are designed by the tech companies who use Meta for their programing. My student (an IT programmer) tells me that they (software companies) ALL use Meta (for its roughly 80% accuracy) and then those apps are meticulously checked by Human ITs.
My sufficiently functional IPhone 7, can’t run a lot of advanced apps (already “disabled” my smart watch without its matching app), which has not affected my student’s life.