Another busy week in the Bellamy household, so just a quick update on events this week.
First up is the latest YouTube video – all about midlife limerence.
Video editor needed
Earlier this week my channel hit 10K subscribers.
That milestone stimulated me to finally outsource some of the work, and so I’m currently looking to recruit a video editor for the channel.
If anyone has the skills and is interested, there’s more information on the freelance opportunity in this post.
US release of Smitten
Another big step this week was meeting with the publicity team for my US publishers, St Martin’s Press.
They have lots of exciting plans in mind – including a promotional trip for me to the US. Looks like it will be focused around New York city, and time may be tight, but it would be great to do a meet up for LwL readers if possible.
One unexpected change is that, as plans have developed, we’ve decided to move the publication date to Feb 2026. Apologies to anyone who’s pre-ordered and is disappointed by this delay. Hopefully it will be for the benefit of the book (and limerence awareness-raising project overall) to release the publicity blitz at the best possible moment.
So, I should be in the US early next Feb.
The phases of no contact
In a previous post about how to get over limerence, Limerent Emeritus suggested including a discussion of how no contact progresses over time. I think that’s a great idea, and have written a few posts before on the topic, but re-reading them now, I think there is more to add.
I wonder if there is a predictable sequence of events? L.E. suggested an active phase, and then diminishing strength over months, with the risk of accidental (or deliberate, with a manipulative LO) contact triggering relapse.
Maybe a typical timeline would be:
- Decision to go No Contact
- Early wins (feels good to have taken action)
- Laborious phase (have to really make an effort to make the lifestyle changes needed and cope with the intense temptation to reconnect)
- Maintenance phase (gets emotionally easier, withdrawal pains fade, but risk of relapse)
- Freedom (no longer particularly want contact)
So, I’ll end today with another request for folks to share their own experience of what happened (emotionally and practically) after they decided to go No Contact with their limerent object.
Is that timeline similar to what you went through?
How long did each phase take (or seem to take)?
Anything missed?
Let’s really nail this down!
Hi Tom/Dr. L
Here’s my approximate timeline. As a backdrop, my LO is a work colleague, but not one I have to work closely with. She turned out to be a bad one: manipulative, selfish.. in fact I’m pretty sure she has at least narcissistic tendencies. Anyhow, here it is:
1. Went low contact. She realised and asked why. Became upset, so I disclosed.
2. Carried on as before.
3. Tried again. She wouldn’t let go.
4. Asked her for space. She angrily walked away.
5. I backslid, and apologised. She strung me along for 3 weeks.
6. She then contacted me as though nothing had happened. I ignored her. Went NC. I blocked her on all non- work comms channels
7. Maintenance phase. Some small later wins.
8. I’m a couple of weeks into wanting no contact. I wouldn’t call it freedom yet. I’ve a long way to go. Currently still in the withdrawal/grief/anger/guilt stage.
I should also point out that it was during the months of stage 3 when I first heard of limerence and came across this fantastic forum.
That’s my experience as I currently see it.
Justmeandmyobsessions (Jmmo)
@jmmo
TBH I would be surprised if you backslide, at this point. I think you are well past that. I feel I also am well past it.
@DrL I actually think the blocking is very key to avoiding backsliding. (Even thought I am a card-carrying, chronic limerent of the highest order) It’s not just about making it so the limerent can’t reach out. In fact, in both our cases (jmmo’s and mind) it was so that we would not hear from LO! So we could manage the temptation…we were clearing space to make sure we could have more certainty, at least in that area. What do you think, jmmo?
The blocking/deleting/ghosting is the single reason why I do not backslide. Is it mean? Probably! Is it weird? Yep! Is it seemingly immature? Definitely!
But, it is also very effective. At a certain point, I realize, I have created so much weirdness by ghosting that there is no way I could go back.
Then, I am truly on what I term “the high plains”. Drifting in the thankless slog of boring, sad, gray, barren, days, months…without my Object…waiting until dopamine, regulation, and the other things i am doing in life, take hold, and in a while, in time, I am healed, and detached, preoccupied with other things, in a way, I’ve simply forgotten….
I have been through many limerences. I have always gone NC. So, this is how it works, for me. I picture it as almost like nature erodes a surface. After a while, LO has been…eroded. In total NC it happens naturally. It’s painful, but it happens if you give it time. If you deprive yourself that stimulus, it must.
To me, there’s no maintenance/laborious phase. It’s NC/Ghost, and. “The High Plains” I’ve created so much weirdness with ghosting that I just…force myself to move on.
@csc
I also think that we’re both past that point. I think that the blocking, and the cutting all contact that isn’t the minimal work-related (which will be absolutely minimal) would make it very, very hard for me to backslide even if I ever wanted to. I know from previous LEs that once my grudge level gets to where it is, it would be far more difficult to go backwards than forwards.
“ In fact, in both our cases (jmmo’s and mind) it was so that we would not hear from LO! So we could manage the temptation…we were clearing space to make sure we could have more certainty, at least in that area. What do you think, jmmo?@“
Again – absolutely. You and I did that to guard against ourselves – I think – as much as preventing them from making contact. Nearly as much anyway!
Hope you’re ok and having a lovely trip blp 😘
Jmmo x
To JMMO:
I am impressed. Mine looks more like this:
1. Go NC.
2. Backslide.
3. Rinse and repeat.
Repeat is good. Fall down seven times, rise up again eight times.
You will get there!
As I said, Norma
It’s not linear. I backslid badly, twice. I’m only as assertive with it now because I’ve left myself no choice.
You will get there. I promise you.
Jmmo
Thank you. I have backslid more times than I can count.
LO was horrible to me yesterday. He yelled at me and called me “passive-aggressive” and “selfish” because I said, truthfully, that I wished I could do more to help him.
I think what’s going on is that he feels guilty that he isn’t able to be kinder to me, because of his own personality (I think dismissive/avoidant?). Then he convinces himself that I put a spell on him and MADE him feel guilty?
So his bad feelings are my fault somehow and all hell breaks loose.
I would actually love it if Dr. L would talk more about the dismissive/avoidant personality.
Thanks Jmmo. Important point to include – that LO can derail your attempts and there will likely be some backsliding. It’s not really a linear process…
Hi Dr L
I actually meant to write that everything at the end, that I know it’s not linear. It hasn’t been really.
Thanks for the heads up.
Jmmo
Typo: That very thing!
I just found this website and now I know a new word for what I am experiencing. What if you had sex with the LO. I am a female and I met this guy. It’s been almost two years since I became obsessed with this dude. I haven’t seen him since August 2024. I text him excessively 450 text one night drunk in the city. Told him my whole life story. Weird shit. Cause I mistakenly thought he was my twin flame or I was just breaking down emotionally, perhaps a combination of the two. Maybe too much Adderall. And box wine. IDK I don’t know I decay…. He came and hooked up with me after I left rehab. Then I never saw him again. He had told me early on he sees other women I am not his girlfriend. I treated this guy really bad though. I projected my romantic fantasy on him and would not leave him alone and stop contacting him when he said he wants me to leave him alone. I wouldn’t take no for an answer I was persistent. I am done contacting him though. Yesterday at midnight I decided that I am officially done living this lie and thinking about LO.
November 2023 I gave some plants away on Craigslist I saw LO outside my window. I made the mistake of talking to him and answering the door. He took me on one date we hooked up and then I went crazy and scared him.
I told him I am addicted to you.
I wanted him to rescue me from myself which is fucked up.
I told him about my life and all the ugly things I do/ drugs/ drinking/ and so on
I don’t actually think me and him are compatible. He hasn’t spoken to me since January. He answered the phone for me while I was in a mental hospital. And when I got out. I got drunk broke a bottle and cut myself.
I keep hating that I am inadequate and he probably has a girlfriend who is pretty/ has good teeth/ more money than me/ smarter/ nicer / better loved than me/ doesn’t drink or do speed/ has long hair/ is skinnier/ has bigger boobs
So now I made up an imaginary girlfriend who is a female that I think LO would actually love and it’s hurting my soul!
Thing is: LO and I have no chemistry, we both like plants, but that’s not enough to sustain a relationship, I have nothing in common with this man, he doesn’t even like me, he was just casual and didn’t want a relationship so why did I stay obsessed with him?
Glimmer.
I had LOs who I never slept with and the crush wasn’t as bad as this was.
Poor guy I will leave LO alone.
(I think he was a jerk too though but I ain’t here to discuss other people’s actions)
(I’m wrong to keep texting LO and I won’t contact him ever again)
Your realization is an important first step. People here can cheer you on and help you keep to your resolve. 🙂 Though I hope you will also have the help of a professional, since it sounds like more than limerence is going on. And yeah, I can’t understand why he would sleep with you if he doesn’t want you, knowing you were obsessed with him. It screws with your head. But tells you he’s not worth obsessing over.
Ramona, welcome and I hope you have found this site useful. It was a revelation for most of us I think! I hope you find some help here. It sounds as though you need additional support beyond coping with limerence and I hope you find what you need and start on your journey towards peace and recovery.
Dr L, thank you for the video on midlife and limerence. It’s very pertinent. Do you have any additional thoughts about or investigation into menopause or perimenopause and limerence?
I have so far failed to go No contact, unless going on a job hunt and seriously considering a new job. I have however had prolonged pauses, like 3-4 weeks, which have been mostly up and down, and unfortunately getting closer to the end, Limerence and anxiety would ramp up. Getting close to 4 years now.
After posting a couple of times and reflecting on my ‘glowing embers’ post from a few weeks ago, last week was interesting as LO deliberately avoided me. Has happened before. I decided to take Limerent Emeritus’ eminent suggestion to heart and finally go and learn about attachment styles. Couple of YouTube videos with Mel Robbin’s on avoidant style, and my jaw was on the floor. Reading a bit here too; https://www.exboyfriendrecovery.com/traits-avoidants-find-attractive/
Buckle up; reflections and thoughts ahead!
It has finally dawned on me (late to the party), that my LO is an avoidant, the push pull dance we engage in, is a consequence of this, (and I likely expect far too much of him, and don’t understand that thanks to him being an avoidant, his scale of what he is able to give/reciprocate is very different to mine and also much much smaller, plus the effort it takes out of him to do this is huge, and I haven’t paid as much attention to him telling me this that I should have….I feel overwhelmed is probably a loud ‘agony cry’ coming from an avoidant, and what I view as a small contribution is likely all that he is able to give and it is also not likely small in his perspective) and what I am doing now, thanks to Dr L is practising this (plus would be interesting to get other LE’s take on it); https://www.exboyfriendrecovery.com/how-a-secure-handles-an-avoidant-pulling-away/ So…looking at techniques on how to become more secure as someone whose biggest fear is being alone and abandoned in Life. Mindfulness, purposeful living, minimise rumination.
Pondering onwards (yes, more to come)
Camilla George,
May I ask you: is your LO single or attached? (You have a SO or not? I can’t remember well)
If one is already attached and falls into LE, in whatever stage, wouldn’t s/he show some avoidant behaviors?
“If one is already attached and falls into LE, in whatever stage, wouldn’t s/he show some avoidant behaviors?”
That’s another good point. If the LO has an SO, you probably aren’t seeing their real attachment style.
We both have SOs. I do know quite a bit about my LO (the sharing of very personal details and deeply personal stories went on for quite a while before I started to come to my senses, thought initially I had lost my mind, which lead to this site) and also through mutual friends who call him emotionally repressed and stunted, in summary.
Yes, absolutely, unfortunately compartmentalisation is already in place. Strategising for next week, continue to ghost or come back as if nothing happened and just appear. Hard to impossible to go no contact.
Here is a good insight into some with Avoidant attachment think.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AvoidantAttachment/comments/1ktpgwn/villainised_for_needing_space/
Eye opening to read that sub.
Is this your LO?
So I consider myself an avoidant and I skimmed the first post on the Reddit link. That’s not me.
I don’t know your LO, but my avoidance is not as extreme as the Reddit post. I need my space and I like to have my own place (I’m introverted and need downtime after spending social time with people), but I don’t take days to process things and respond. I like to respond in a timely manner and don’t like when people take forever to respond to me.
That being said, I like someone to respect my boundaries. If I say I’m out with friends and I’ll call you back later, I will. I don’t need another text or phone call reminding me to call. (I had a guy do this.) Or another guy who wanted to carry on an all-day text conversation (off and on). I don’t really want to do that; that doesn’t mean I mind a quick check-in to say hi if we’re both at work and maybe a phone call later on after we get home from work.
My understanding is that there are two types of Avoidants. Dismissive Avoidants, Fearful Avoidants though I have also seen a third category; https://www.exboyfriendrecovery.com/is-my-ex-a-fearful-or-dismissive-avoidant/
However this is also a rather new ‘system’ for describing human behaviour.
I am also someone that needs my down time to recuperate after ppl overload, and what you wrote resonated with me. Anxious at times, secure at other times. I think ppl are fluid, and may have traits from all, and what manifests may vary over time, as we learn emotional maturity, acceptance and gain experience, and learn emotional regulation. A fascinating subject!
Camilla,
A fascinating subject!”
It is. I’m probably a Fearful Avoidant.
I just think that avoidants, in general, get a bad rap. They often attract anxious attachers (the two guys I mentioned were probably anxious) … and, to be honest, anxious attachers come with their “stuff,” too. The inability to back off and bit and respect boundaries.
That being said … and I think there’s a post on this site about this … being limerent actually makes me anxious.
But then once the limerence dies down … I’m back to being avoidant. It’s not uncommon for people to slide back to their usual attachment style when limerence dies down.
To Camilla:
This is super-helpful, thanks. I seem to be an anxious-attachment person and LO is dismissive-avoidant.
No wonder nothing ever goes right.
Dr. L,
I really enjoyed your “Why Limerence Peaks in Midlife” video. With or without a video editor, the pacing is beautiful. (No. Sorry. I have no skills of a technological nature). You included enough ideas to do justice to the topic, and captivate listeners. But you resisted the temptation to cram in so many ideas that listeners would walk away feeling fatigued or overwhelmed by excessive content. 🙂
I also have a sweet-but-strange story I’d like to share about a recent accidental encounter I had with two midlifers (a heterosexual couple) on the hunt for romantic excitement. Please free feel to censor the story in part or in full if you feel it’s not suitable for LwL. The story is more embarrassing (for all parties) than risque. And I thought it most wonderfully illustrated the timeless Biblical precept: “Be sure your sins [however minor] will find you out.” (Numbers 32:23).
Late one afternoon, I was in the City Botanic Gardens, sitting by the river, meditating. I was in a section of the gardens where rainforest meets mangroves. I was wearing a palette of brown, green, grey, and blue, so my wardrobe was indistinguishable from the colours of the landscape. Also, I have a tendency to sit very still when I’m deep in thought. On this day, like a giant tree frog, I was sitting propped up on a rock ledge. This ledge borders the path next to the river.
Down the path came a couple. The couple were middle-aged, elegant, well-dressed, probably going for a stroll after a long leisurely lunch in a nice restaurant that included alcohol. The couple didn’t see me until they were standing less than a metre away from me. Suddenly, they become very flustered and embarrassed. Apparently, they were hoping to indulge in some “hanky-panky” (the woman’s word and not mine) and my presence had foiled their plans. 🙂
The woman did most of the talking, and her tone was jovial. However, at one point, the man rather grumpily blurted out: “Maybe he likes to watch?” The woman looked even more flustered and embarrassed at this juncture. To cover over her embarrassment, she asked if she could take my picture: “I won’t put it in the newspapers or anything.” So I agreed to let the woman take my picture.
Usually, I’m the most tactful man alive. I should have taken the man’s comment as a hint that I was intruding in the secluded beauty spot. I should have taken the man’s comment as a hint to vacate the area. However, my brain wasn’t working as fast as it ordinarily does. The woman continued to be flustered and embarrassed, and eventually joked that she and the man would keep walking. I told her that there were better spots further along the riverbank.
I think the woman is going to spend the rest of her life at dinner parties, showing people her photograph of me and saying: “Doesn’t he blend in perfectly with his surroundings? We literally didn’t see him while he sat there, shrouded in shadow. This is the king of camouflage/unofficial member of the morality police who stopped my friend and I from getting up to mischief.” 😆
I don’t think these midlifers were necessarily “naughty people”. They could have been two mature-aged singletons in the early days of dating, or an old married couple trying to revive the eroticism in a fundamentally-happy-but stale marriage. If the latter is true, they certainly found what they were looking for! (Nice lunch. A couple of glasses of wine to loosen inhibitions – and tongues. Lovely scenery. Loads of anticipation. An unpleasant surprise in the form of Sammy. 🤣
They could even dub the walk the “galactically selfish holiday that wasn’t”. 😉
I do love your stories! There’s always risk trying to get up to things in public spaces, lol. I’m sure they had a room to go back to….
🦇, second your cool 😎 👁…
Okay, I think I understood that… Thanks!
Hello,
I have actually been here for over three years but never had enough courage to comment. I am a SO of someone who has been in limerence since 2001. I never thought I would still be here! Hurt and confused I begin each day with thoughts of the LO and my SO. I wish I could stop but it won’t go away.
SO finally went no contact a short time ago and seemed to be doing fine for 3 months, but I know there has been a relapse and I am beyond hurt.
SO does not know that I am aware that this relapse has happened. I absolutely believe that SO was at step 5 and felt freedom and no longer wanted contact. SO shared he was mad that it took this long to see what was really happening. Things were moving in the right direction and bammmmm back we go! I am at a loss and 100% feel that it will never end. I thought that after step 5 it was over.
@lostinthistoo
…you must be exhausted. I can only imagine how much this hurts for you. 24 years of your life is a long time. I’m glad you spoke up. I hope you will keep sharing. Many of use are coming at this from the other side (the limerent side)…but the people here are incredibly emotionally intelligent and fantastic at supporting one another.
…do you have any support, in terms of figuring out what actions you might want to take, or how you want to handle this? I can just imagine how you must feel, you must be absolutely wrung out.
Although I am a limerent, and not an SO, I can tell you, you have needs— outside of your relationship— as an individual soul, and your needs are important.
With care, csc
@lostinthistoo
I’m so glad that you’ve spoken up. I don’t want you to underestimate how being here might help you, as well as us!
I am so sorry about what you are going through. I can only imagine what this must be like. As a chronic Limerent, I am sorry on your SOs behalf about what he has found himself in. Does he know about this site? I wonder if it might help him as well as you.
I know that this probably isn’t going to help, and I don’t know the full story, but your SO wants out of this limerence. I really believe that, because we all do. He is trapped in an addiction which is no different in the way it holds onto one that alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc. He has no control over it. I don’t know if you’d be willing to share more of the story – but we would be glad to help you, at least @csc and I would.
I won’t say any more here for fear of offending you and barking up the wrong tree as we say in the UK (in case you’re elsewhere).
Please come back. We would love to help.
Best wishes
Justmeandmyobsessions (Jmmo)
Hi Lostinthistoo,
Thank you for being brave and finally sharing your story. I was passive here at LwL for quite a while (more like 6 months than 3 years though) but I found once I spoke out (a year ago to the day – heck, it is my LwL anniversary and I know it!) I entered a new phase where the site became much more beneficial to me. I hope it is the same for you.
That’s awful having to go through this ordeal since 2001 and then have it re-ignite after you thought it was finally done. You’ve shown incredible tolerance to get this far. I don’t know how you have done that.
I’m coming from the limerent side too but have just about dug myself out of an LE after just shy of two years, all while being with my SO and not disclosing to either one.
I wanted to expand on something in JMMO’s reply to you:
He said: “your SO wants out of this limerence. I really believe that, because we all do. He is trapped in an addiction which is no different in the way it holds onto one that alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc. He has no control over it.”
Whilst I’d mostly agree with JMMO about the addiction element (especially after 25 years), I would disagree on one bit slightly. I believe your husband *does* have the choice to take control. It could involve a horrendously painful path, but it is a possible path all the same. JM – you, Csc and I have all faced this addiction while with SOs, and in our different ways taken painful but purposeful steps to begin ending it – for ourselves and for them.
Lostinthistoo – what would he say if you told him he had to end it? Have you ever had the “it’s her or me” conversation or a gentler version of it? Why did he relapse – more his fault or his LO’s? What do you think he’d say if you revealed you knew he’d relapsed?
No pressure to answer any or all of the above if you don’t want, honestly. Just say what you’re comfortable with. There are a lot of us here who have faced this down, and while we are “on the other side” so to speak, we can still give insight. Well done for reaching out.
💪 from LaR
@LaR,
I did not know you were a lurker here before actually contributing… 😜
As a long-time if somewhat inconsistent contributor to LwL, what I would like to say to you and other lurkers is that I hope you are entertained by all the goings-on at LwL. Also, please don’t be put off by the relationship politics that sometimes take place. People are still figuring out respectful and socially appropriate ways to communicate with one another.
As you have probably already figured out, I’m a very articulate man with a gentle exterior that hides an incredibly strong and determined personality. I’m not interested in telling anyone else what to think. However, the flipside of that is I decline to be bossed around or pressured into joining “sides” in arguments. I have always been a highly independent person.
Both here and elsewhere, people have misunderstood my personality. I’ve been called “sissy”. I’ve been called “flamboyant”. I’ve been called “a comedian”. I’ve been called “special” and “erudite” and “verbose”. I’ve been called a “chameleon”. I’ve been called “an extraterrestrial”. I’ve been called “insecure”. The truth is I am both (occasionally, when I choose to be) some of those things and none of those things, all at the same time.
Personality-wise, I am shy, quiet, gentle, modest to a fault, unassuming, easy-going, tactful, truthful, and respectful. Hardly the traits of a leader. However, sometimes leader Sammy comes out. I am a natural leader who hates leadership and a bona fide star who shuns the spotlight. It’s been interesting to see what qualities of mine LwL has brought to the surface.
Your frequent kindness toward other LwL readers has been noted. 🙂
@lostinthistoo and @LaR
Just to answer LaR’s point: “ I believe your husband *does* have the choice to take control. It could involve a horrendously painful path, but it is a possible path all the same. JM – you, Csc and I have all faced this addiction while with SOs, and in our different ways taken painful but purposeful steps to begin ending it – for ourselves and for them.”
Yes, LaR is absolutely right. I agree unreservedly. I think that what I was trying to say was that he has no control over the FACT that he’s addicted in the first place. All addicts have a choice, and as @LaR points out, that choice is to extract yourself, via help if necessary. Yes, we have all done that, and it has been very painful. @LaR, @csc and myself are on a long road to recovery.
So, @lostinthistoo, I apologise for the suggestion that your SO is an innocent victim. None of us are. I hope that I have made what I meant clear.
Thanks LaR for a better explanation.
Jmmo
My story is not so much NC but workplace LC. But a lot of the same emotions exist. If you have been here some time you know my story.
Early on when limerent distress set in the first NC act I took was to shut down looking at her social media. This one was actually easy for me and I never backslid on it. I first hid her then I eventually unfollowed her. I did all this because looking at her SM just made me want her more and feel worse. It was an easy decision. To this day I have no desire to see her SM.
My second act was realizing texting with her was causing me distress. So I tried, with limited success, to stop texting with her. I wanted our texting to be more conversational and she was mostly transactional with it. So it always ended up frustrating me. Also, she would initiate texts about once a week in the earlier days and me wondering, hoping, waiting for texts from her would be excruciating. So in an act of keeping my sanity I tried to just stop the texting from my end.
It took me a full year and a half and one disclosure to decide to go LC with her in person. I was so frustrated with my desire for her and always feeling the pains of her lack of reciprocation that I decided enough was enough and I needed to gain back control of myself. So I came up with an LC plan. Work interactions only, no personal talk in the office. No alone time with her. No texting at all. My success was limited. My executive brain knew it was best but my emotional self wanted to pursue LO still
What eventually really kept my LC sustained was the feeling of resentment at LO. I had a lot of resentment bubble up towards her and I just wanted to kinda get back at her by staying distant from her. If feelings of resentment waned and affection towards LO crept back in then I tended to backslide until the resentment returned. The biggest problem I would encounter in LC was the feeling that it was hurting LO. This would make me feel guilty and have sympathy for her and I would start to feel affection for her again that would make me want to engage her. These periods would last a week or two until she would frustrate me and the affection gave back way to resentment. This cycle continued for a year and a half.
It was a hard line to walk because I did not want my resentment to cause me to lash out at her in a work setting so I put on a facade at work, acting normal about work stuff, and just tried to keep personal distance. But inside I both loved her and hated her and wished her out of my life.
As I wrote a few weeks back, after over 3 years, half of which was actively practicing full LC, my LE feels have become more dormant than ever. I still feel romantic desire for her but it doesn’t really affect my mood at all anymore. Other things in life have now become more important. I am still practicing LC because I don’t want to reignite my LE.
Success! You did it! It’s been a long bumpy ride, but you finally have control over your limerence, Speedwagon.
Thank-you, Lovisa. Thank-you for all the encouragement over the last few years. Feels good to get myself back.
In my situation, LE is born July 2022.
Intense glimmer, euphoria, rumination. Basically an obsession always one step away from wanting to stalk LO. This continues for a period of almost 5 months. I never meet or actually talk to LO, other than maybe an occasional hello. It is also during this time I discover the roller coaster when there is eye contact between us and this causes the euphoria. When there was less or no eye contact, or if I perceived a lack of interest, I went into depression and started crying about it. Like intense crying at times.
In December of 2022, my anxiety increased and I began realizing my nervousness around LO intensified because I wanted to approach but her body language told me not to This began causing me deep doubts about moving things forward.
2023 begins. NC basically happens by default because LO transfers out in February, to a complex next door to our company. This is where my depression goes into overdrive and I struggle to keep myself grounded at work. Crying spells increase. I try to see LO next door but never really do, other than if she’s coming into or leaving work. This sadness continues on intensity for almost 6 months.
I am then transferred to our main operation across the street in September 2023. Which is stressful in and of itself. At this point I see LO even less.. I’m extremely anxious about this change but try to keep positive about what lies ahead.
However, at my new position, I catch the attention of another younger female (Lady Friend)-(same age as LO) and try not to make it a limerent thing. Her attention and meeting (December 2023) and eventually getting to know her is what basically helps me take my mind and sadness off of LO. Decreasing the insatiable desire to want to see her. This is how 2024 begins.
During 2024, I never really have my mind off LO entirely.. LF is available but isn’t making herself available and I get flustered over it. I feel limerent pangs trying to re-ignite for her. That anxious feeling I’ve begun to loathe is almost in overdrive. LF almost glimmers but not quite. I fight the urge NOT to lose my mind over her, causing a new LE relapse..
I still think of LO often but never in the way I was formerly.. LF and I continue in work friendship only throughout all of 2024.
Cut to 2025. LF and myself have a misunderstanding and quit talking. Ironically around this time LO is transferred over to our main plant where she works a midnight shift. I’ve seen her coming in to work and that’s about it. The place is so big that she may as well be working in another zip code. I’ll hardly ever see her, BUT THE ANXIETY TO HAVE TO SEE HER IS GONE.. I only get sad about it if I spend time thinking about her, hear a song off her playlist or look at her pic. This is controllable for the time-being. Like a warm glowing ember..
LE will be 3 years in July, but I don’t really consider it full-on limerence anymore. Breaking down the timeline and the NC time it took to basically “get over” LO, I would say.. About 18 months..
@MJ.
“Intense glimmer, euphoria, rumination. Basically an obsession always one step away from wanting to stalk LO. This continues for a period of almost 5 months. I never meet or actually talk to LO, other than maybe an occasional hello. It is also during this time I discover the roller coaster when there is eye contact between us and this causes the euphoria. When there was less or no eye contact, or if I perceived a lack of interest, I went into depression and started crying about it. Like intense crying at times.”
Aw. That sounds rough, MJ…
I think I spent the last four years of high school on a rollercoaster ride that was initially fun, but then, as time progressed, spun more and more out of control.
In grade eleven, my English class watched “The Truman Show”. Truman’s wife in the show wears a badge that reads: “How Will It End?” (A wink to the audience that “The Truman Show” is a reality show, and, unbeknownst to Truman, everything is being staged). I misread Truman’s wife’s badge. I thought the badge said: “When Will It End?” (I was thinking about my own limerent episode, and doubting my ability to endure any more stress).
“This is controllable for the time-being. Like a warm glowing ember.”
I think, after one falls into the limerent “pit”, one feels like one needs attention from LO – or attention from someone very similar to LO – in order to feel good. It’s almost like one lacks the ability to prop up one’s mood. That job has been inadvertently outsourced to a real person or a fantasy person. One really does walk around feeling like one has lost something and/or possesses a phantom limb. (The feeling of loss most strongly kicks in after no contact has been initiated).
“I think, after one falls into the limerent “pit”, one feels like one needs attention from LO – or attention from someone very similar to LO – in order to feel good.”
@Sammy
The intensity of the eye contact from LF was very similar to the eye contact from LO. So I knew this time around I had to investigate what it meant. So that’s why I approached her. Initially I thought it meant she was super interested but now I see it was only for validation. Even in not even talking to her now, I still catch her looking my way. Can’t lie though, I look at her too. I think she’s hot. I thought we were good friends. Even after disclosure I think we were still ok. Maybe even better than before disclosure. Yet I’ll swear on a stack of bibles, I was never limerent over her.
Similar but not limerent. Only because it didn’t hurt like it did with LO..
@MJ.
I came across this amazing quote the other day, which I think many limerents can relate to on some level, especially if their feelings of attraction (to LO and not to some replacement person) weren’t reciprocated:
“I was ashamed of myself when I realised life was a costume party and I attended with my real face.” Franz Kafka.
“Attended with my real face.”
@Sammy,
That does ring very true my Friend..
@MJ.
“That does ring very true my Friend.”
I think the limerent’s feelings for the LO, at least in the moment, are always sincere – even if the limerent is desperately trying to “hold everything in”. 🤣
I’m pretty sure that I betrayed my feelings for my LO to my LO a thousand times or more, merely by micro-changes in my facial expressions every time I was around him.
My LO once casually asked me which room a certain exam was being held. I told him. A third boy witnessing the scene (a close friend of mine) asked me if I knew my LO. I think he (the third boy) was perplexed by my shy, dazed, dazzled demeanour in relation to LO. He (the third boy) was used to a less-reserved Sammy. If Helen Fisher’s theorising on the subject is correct, my dopamine levels were severely elevated during that interaction with LO, creating physiological symptoms in me akin to those of classic “stage fright”.
Lucy Bain seems to think our LOs always know how we feel about them, at least on an energetic level. (They know we’d drop anything and everything for them, and in a heartbeat, if only they asked us too). And she’s probably right, in my humble opinion. 🙂
It’s scary to feel that way about another person. It’s human to feel that way about another person. It’s not always healthy to feel that way about another person. At least I can now cross “experiencing the sensation of being madly in love” off my bucket list! 😜
I would like to add to what others have said regarding NC. I think it’s very helpful to have a clear reason (for yourself) why you’ve decided to go NC. E.g.
Am I going NC to avoid pain?
Am I going NC to get over someone who likes me but isn’t crazy about me?
Am I going NC to focus on my purposeful life?
Am I going NC for other people e.g. spouse and dependent children?
Am I going NC for LO’s benefit? (I’m worried I might be tempted to act desperate around him/her, leading whatever relationship that does exist to go bad anyway).
Am I going NC to pursue romance elsewhere, and with intent this time?
As time passes, one’s motives for going NC may change.
Also, here’s an interesting reason to go NC. Let’s say someone unintentionally recovers from a particular limerent episode, simply by avoiding LO for a given period of time. (Maybe, in this hypothetical situation, the LO cut ties with the limerent). This recovered limerent – if aware of their changed status – will very likely say the following to himself/herself: “Wow! I actually feel good when I’m not in limerence. My mind is clear. I can enjoy other aspects of life, etc, etc. I wish I paid more attention to Tom Bellamy, Lucy Bain, my mother, my roomie, my pet cat, the postman, etc, when they were all offering to help me back in the day.” 😆
I’ve found there’s a big, big difference between “physical attraction” and the all-consuming madness of person addiction. However, it is extremely hard to put those differences into words. Having experienced obsessive infatuation, I can understand only too well why people conflate “limerence” with “the hand of fate”.
The feelings of attraction are just so powerful. If two people are feeling the same feelings at the same time, it must be very hard for either of them to turn away from the experience. I can understand why most people would want the freedom to explore such a powerful attraction, especially if unaware that such powerful attraction is fuelled by altered brain chemistry.
Some personality types are more prone to chasing emotional highs than others. (INFPs, I’m looking at you). How one feels today might not be how one feels in four years’ time, though. Also, after four years, I think most consummated limerences return to a kind of emotional and biochemical baseline point. (Anecdotal evidence from free-to-act folk who pursued their infatuations).
I understand that many people don’t necessarily share Dr. L’s moral vision of how the world should be, and how responsible adults should behave, and hence won’t be overeager for his help. I don’t think Dr. L is in the business of forcing his moral vision on others. However, other people such as yours truly who may have a similar moral vision to Dr. L, or who may have had an unpleasant experience of limerence irrespective of moral values, are likely to be receptive to any help offered.
In my own situation:
(1) LO wasn’t interested in anything serious with me.
(2) LO wasn’t interested in providing any kind of closure or explanation for his behaviour. Nor was he in my life in any official capacity.
(3) The infatuation had past it’s “use-by” date as a pleasure-giving fantasy and had turned into something ugly and sour and dark and twisted (in my mind).
Sammy,
“Some personality types are more prone to chasing emotional highs than others. (INFPs, I’m looking at you).”
Guilty as charged! And then us INFPs seem to keep bumping up against the logical types who will not jump over the cliffs with us! It’s maddening! 🙂
“Also, after four years, I think most consummated limerences return to a kind of emotional and biochemical baseline point. (Anecdotal evidence from free-to-act folk who pursued their infatuations).”
Four YEARS! Try four months. If you’re lucky. 🙂 (Once things are consummated and they’re all in.)
So I am starting over with my zillionth attempt at NC.
LO yelled at me (again) two days ago. Every time he loses his temper over nothing, it drives me a little further away. The best I can figure out regarding his volatility is that he feels bad that he doesn’t treat me very well, and then accuses me of making him feel guilty. I have tried to assure him that this is not the case but it falls on deaf ears and I am exhausted.
I accepted an invitation to brunch with him and his mother yesterday because I suspect the invite came from her, and I would NEVER do anything to offend or disappoint his mom.
Today I feel angry with myself. When I was with him yesterday, I felt nothing. I found his conversation boring, and was put off by his self-absorption. He asked me if he had shown me photos of his new house. I could not believe that he didn’t even remember.
I can’t tell if I’m more disgusted with him or with myself.
Song of the Post: “I Hate Myself For Loving You” – Joan Jett (1988)
https://youtu.be/bpNw7jYkbVc?feature=shared
The year I kicked LO #2 to the curb.
To LE:
What an inspired choice! Thank you!
Perhaps his grief applies to a Mother in a similar situation?
https://youtu.be/h9dFE0u7o4Y?feature=shared — A Father’s Song for the Family That Left Him
They said this video is fake?
How do you define “fake”?
Whether it’s AI generated or not, its lyric, music, and voice are beautiful and touching, which generate tears…
Is content or author more important in any artistic creation?
ND,
Self-loathing seems to be a natural part of the coming out of limerence process, often followed by the “What was I thinking?” phase.
If you cruise the older blogs, the “What was I thinking?” topic periodically comes up.
There’s a great string on Hugh Grant’s classic lapse of judgment in there somewhere.
❄️ that video is fake – fact. It’s not even Americas got talent, because they are showing Britain’s got talent folks and those judges reactions are not to that man but to another ( actually real person/s whose performance is not shown or acknowledged).
Sadly the future will be more fake, more AI and questioning of what is real and what is not real and manipulations like this one.
I enjoy fiction, story telling and fantasy, however, it feels like things are shifting to a less authentic place with these themes in the future.
Just my POV.
IMHO,
I read the buzz about the video’s fake news, after I listened to it several times, ignorantly. I enjoyed the piece itself, AI or manmade.
Now your post spins my mind here: If we can enjoy great fictions, fantasies, fairytales, myths for hundreds of years, clearly knowing they’re fabricated/created by authors, can’t we enjoy a piece of AI made music/song when it pleases our ears and drives our tears?!
I’m just asking.
❄️
Fiction and story telling from the heart with creative mind and tongue is very different than taking reality and footage of real life people in real life situations and manipulating it into something false.
Do I want a video of me reacting to a beautiful heartfelt situation in real life being cut into a fake video to give a reaction to something I have no concept or experience of or knowledge of ?
No ! Absolutely no. It’s pure manipulation. It’s false reactions and wrong.
I can only hope the younger generation demands more authenticity for their own sake.
To Snowflake:
The emotions are real, and valid of course, but the manipulation gives me the creeps.
IMHO,
I get your point on the “faked/false” reactions to the AI generated song, thank you for pointIng it out. I did not pay much attention to the audience and judges, but drawn in by the song itself.
The sad story in the lyric is plausible in reality, just as many stories in great fictions. What about if the piece is just played out in an independent music video (there are several pieces in YT now) as an AI generated song? It still sounds beautiful.
You know that not long ago, a pure AI generated abstract painting was sold in London for $1, right? I was amazed but did/do not like the painting. I do wonder where and what AI is leading our next generation to…
Typo: sold for $1m.
ND: Yes, The manipulation is awful.
Btw, my shortened pen-name here is “Snow”, not “Snowflake”.
Hi ❄️,
I’m glad I gave you a perspective on the judges and audience reactions.
The ‘act’ and the ‘story’ itself is ok in my view, as long as it’s presented as fiction, like a movie is portrayed.
The manipulation to make it appear real life is not ok. This line has been pushed and pushed to the point where many people question if anything is real anymore and what people’s motives are.
This generates a feeling of lack of trust and authenticity that is surely is not good for future society / community.
💃,
In this case of fake news, I think, the video maker is trying to make money, it generated more the 5M views.
I never like(d) AI, although I think robots could do some impossible labors for human beings.
Like you, I do worry that this fake news trend and inauthenticity is getting worse and worse. Once public or personal trust is broken, then it’s become almost impossible to deal with IT or him/her.
Ok, I’m putting up an altered version of the same song, without any audience but just one still image. Notice, the voice of AI actually changed somewhat, younger?
https://youtu.be/cXwuaLAz-HE?feature=shared — I’m still waiting at the door
Norma,
An observation is that you seem to be going through the highs and lows that limerence bestows us at a rate of knots. Amplifying it when he is good to you or (more often) when he isn’t. This is all very relatable to me.
Could you see yourself refusing the next invite to see him? It would dial down the high of getting the invite, but more importantly dial down the low if he’s not up to scratch when you do.
I know you said he is moving away later in the year and that will be a natural endpoint. Do you feel that it is kind of inevitable that it will run all the way until then, or are there any ways you can start the journey out in the mean time?
I ask because watching from a distance I can hear the turmoil he is causing you (whether he means to is another question, but I doubt it based on what you’ve told us – might just be his normal character flaws having a disproportionate effect). It would be nice for you if you could find ways to start minimising that soon.
Hello Norma D!
( It’s such a cool name )
I agree with LaR.
You must lean into relationships that give you positivity and energy, and not those that suck them out of you.
if you value his mom more than LO, and she enriches you, can you not see her alone and bring her to your house?
I guess she will be there when LO moves anyway, so maybe make that deeper connection with her rather than LO happen sooner ? i.e. acting as if LO has already moved away already, so you are more in control of the situation than you think.
Just some thoughts ..
To IMHO:
Mom will move with LO. I think it’s terrible. She’s 89 and he is going to drag her cross-country to a cold climate where she doesn’t know anyone.
All of her children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren are here.
Part of the reason he gets so irritable with me (he claims) is because of the stress of worrying about how his mom is going to handle the move.
I don’t really believe this; I think he’s just an irritable person, period.
His mom looks exactly like him; I really don’t want to be reminded, anyway.
To IMHO:
I am glad you like Norma Desmond. I wish I was half as fabulous as Gloria Swanson.
Norma D,
Wow ! That is some move for her. I agree with your concerns. There is no way I would move my mother who is much younger as she would lose all independence and connections to friends and family.
Well, I can see why you are so irritated by him. Your LO is irritating me now quite a bit, and I think I would even recognise him if I sat next to him on a train or plane !
To LaR:
LO is moving in September. I’m hoping to just avoid him as much as possible. He’s an out-of-sight-out-of-mind type of person, so if he doesn’t see me, he probably won’t contact me.
Not sure if I have the strength to refuse an invite; I’d like to say I would, but I don’t think I am strong enough.
I need to be realistic about my limitations.
I thoroughly enjoyed and related to the midlife video and it absolutely summed me up completely. Ennui yes. Excitement of a new person, absolutely.
I have been saying that I have been having a midlife crisis for 2 years. I think the second adolescence was absolutely spot on.
I wouldn’t have felt qualified to comment on NC before now as despite intellectually knowing it was right, I was resisting and always failed, convincing myself that it was just a friendship.
I am happy to report that there has been a shift! Not spoken for a month. I had what I can only describe as an anxiety attack about two weeks ago when someone spoke to me about something possibly going on between LO and a colleague. I had heart squishing anxiety for about 2 weeks and then complete calm.
The interesting thing though is that I have no desire to contact LO. All contact was mainly instigated by me and he has not reached out. I feel embarrassed thinking we were closer than we were. To reach out now would feel weird and forced.
This is probably the first time in the 2 year LE that I haven’t wanted to reach out and haven’t been looking for excuses or justification to do so.
I feel like he has come down from the pedestal somewhat. I feel physically free.
However – behavioural habits remain, like wanting him to contact me or checking social media. Although that is a form of contact, previously I would have messaged by now. But no thanks. I have no desire to. I will take that as a victory. Never thought I’d see the day!
Congregations for this milestone, it’s HUGE!
Backsliding may or may not occur, please mentally prepare or even expect its possible occurrence.
Yes absolutely. Thank you! I’m not convinced this is the end of no contact forever as I may struggle not to respond if he reaches out. Also anxiety does creep in a bit on occasion and i do get sad. He is still a constant thought but the physical need isnt there.
There’s an event coming up that he would like and normally I would have sent it on but today I just thought no. I don’t want to start anything and I had no interest in putting myself in a position where I feel worthless again. I’m reclaiming my life and my value! Usually i just feel defeated and rejected but no more. Farewell nonsense!
I no longer have “interest in putting myself in a position where I feel worthless again. I’m reclaiming my life and my value! “
That’s the spirit! Please keep it up! 💪
Whoop,
Good for you !
I know you will feel sad, but hopefully empowered too and maybe gain more self confidence in doing so too.
You will have things that will come up that you want to share with LO, it’s ok to think it, just don’t act on it. I also have this, and I no longer message with news links or whatever, however relevant interesting or funny they are. It’s essentially breaking a habit I guess.
Best,
💪🏻
Whoomp, you see my phone auto corrects your name to Whoop all the time.
Maybe this can be your future post-LE name ? As in “Whoop for joy” . Maybe not yet, but you know, maybe soon.
My feelings of not wanting to contact have stayed. I am able to stop myself because the association with bad is greater than the association of good reward. However, at times my mind does tend to wander involuntary to the happy memories. Then I am able to foolishly convince myself that things were good and I was valued. But then I work hard on remembering the pain and the here and now. LO hasn’t contacted me, there was no follow through on most of what was said, the good times need to stay in the moment.
I wish I wasn’t thinking of him so much. I do miss interacting with him but my self control is winning for now. I do wish he would message me. But to what end.
It’s worse when I wake up and when I return to work it’ll be a challenge.
If only NC was an instant off switch.
you could try here https://zdravsklad.space/germany/bluestone/
Whoomp,
You sound like you’re doing well and reclaiming life – kudos! This is a major move forward. Keep it up. Each day could feel a bit easier now.
“I may struggle not to respond if he reaches out”
That could change if the time interval got longer. If it is true you couldn’t resist responding, then think how you could respond in a more drab way that doesn’t encourage the flames to be reignited. This is the paradox of limerence – our lim-brain wants it ignited, our exec brain very much doesn’t!
Remember I commented a few weeks ago that your feelings would shift slowly (into less front-of-mind thoughts of him) if you stayed NC? It is likely that shift has now happened because you’ve been NC. Renewed contact, even if initiated by him, could mean you having to start that cycle from near the beginning again.
Sorry to sound doomy. Don’t mean to – am encouraged by your progress, so want to help you think how not to backslide.
After almost 3 years (June 3) there was an off chance that I might see LO in July at a formal function. I found out last week that will not be the case and while I was initially excited that I might see her again, I got conformation that she won’t be attending and I am actually relieved.
Three years of my life I will never get back. But in the end I guess it is a learning experience. I am not upset with her. Disappointed in myself, yes. I think I got it licked. Thanks to Dr L and the community here. I have an immeasurable debt to pay you all here.
Adam,
“Three years of my life I will never get back. But in the end I guess it is a learning experience.”
If you learned something that makes your life better and the people you love lives better, it wasn’t a waste.
Unfortunately, some lessons take longer to learn and come at a greater cost than others. I made a whole lot of mistakes that I didn’t have to pay for.
That doesn’t make me good, it makes me blessed.
“I have an immeasurable debt to pay you all here.”
All you really need to do is have a grateful heart and cherish the life you’ve made. If only I had done a fraction of that before my divorce, I probably wouldn’t be where I’m at today. My life is really not hell, but sometimes I feel like it borders it..
It’s just simply less exciting without someone in it.. Bad choices come with a consequence..
So happy for you. Keep it up but don’t be too hard on yourself.
Me, Id like to thank 60s/70s Goldie Hawn for being such a lovely distraction while I’m free of limerence this week.
Adam,
I think the most important thing I learned from limerence is that I now know what limerence is. If limerence happens to me again, I’ll be able to recognise it.
What is limerence? Limerence, to me, is the “sensation of being madly in love with someone”. Note: I did not say limerence is “being madly in love with someone”. To be in love with someone, madly or otherwise, implies some form of relationship. Limerence, to me, at least how I experienced it, is all the feels of a romantic relationship, minus the most important ingredient – the romantic relationship itself.
The fact my brain was able to create extraordinary feels for a person I wasn’t in a romantic relationship with is all the proof I need that limerence isn’t fate. How can fate be something only one person is experiencing? How can fate be a romantic relationship that only one person desires? How can fate be a fantasy unfolding only in the head of one person? Fate requires at least two equally enthusiastic participants.
I was thinking about limerence the other day as if it were the plot of a Jane Austen novel. Except this particular Jane Austen novel doesn’t have a happy ending…
Imagine two people – LO and limerent – are in one another’s social circles. In fact, they don’t even need to be in one another’s social circles. They could just be in one another’s social orbits. The point is they don’t know each other all that well. They don’t know each other well enough to be able to predict each other’s motives.
Now let’s say six or seven coincidences in a row happen between LO and limerent. LO and limerent are in one another’s social orbits. Of course, they are going to bump into each other somewhat frequently. At least half a dozen of those coincidences could appear really meaningful and compelling to the limerent. The limerent already has a heightened interest in the LO, after all. The limerent might start believing that half a dozen extremely compelling coincidences is proof that (a) LO is chasing the limerent or (b) the LO wishes to be chased by the limerent.
But here’s the thing. Seven extremely compelling coincidences between two people can be just that – seven extremely compelling coincidences between two people. Those seven coincidences may have great meaning to the limerent. But those seven coincidences don’t necessarily have great meaning to LO. And those seven coincidences wouldn’t mean much to someone in LO’s social orbit who didn’t have a heightened interest in LO and LO’s ostensible motives.
“The limerent might start believing that half a dozen extremely compelling coincidences is proof that (a) LO is chasing the limerent or (b) the LO wishes to be chased by the limerent.”
This was definitely my situation. Where every single breadcrumb meant something. My head was filled with delusions and “what if’s?” Fantasy became reality and now I reminisce on what never actually was.
Compelling coincidences are just that, to a limerent. They only meant something to me.
@MJ.
“This was definitely my situation. Where every single breadcrumb meant something. My head was filled with delusions and “what if’s?” Fantasy became reality and now I reminisce on what never actually was.”
The power of hope! 😁
To Sammy:
Your comments are so interesting. I was reminded that LO is one of those people who reads meaning into everything, whereas I do believe that most things are just coincidence.
Several times he has been talking about something and said, “It’s a sign!” whereas I tend to see the same set of circumstances as meaningless.
He and I have never discussed this, since I tend to back away from conflict. He gets very “impassioned,” (his word) and it’s too much for me.
@Norma Desmond.
What you write here is really interesting, and actually adds a whole new dimension to your story…
If you feel that most of the intensity in the “attachment” is coming from him and not from you, maybe he’s limerent for you and you’re the unwitting LO? I.e. maybe you’re not obsessed but just “in like”? Maybe you’re on the receiving end of someone else’s obsession?
If you conclude you are this man’s LO, you’ll have to ask yourself whether you’re comfortable in that role? Also, you might want to consider the idea of mutual limerence. I.e. maybe you and this man are limerent for each other? I.e. do you both feel super-intense?
From your recent comments, it sounds like something about the whole set-up is making you feel uneasy. Do you think maybe this man is limerent for you and his limerence for you is behind his erratic, unpleasant behaviour? Do you (understandably) not wish to be blamed for this man’s erratic, unpleasant behaviour?
If this man’s aggression is due to his limerence for you, it’s very likely because his brain feels that you don’t really reciprocate the limerent passion (intensity of emotional feeling). Either that, or it (the man’s brain) is super stressed-out about whether or not you reciprocate feelings. I.e. prolonged uncertainty about where he stands with you is causing him increasingly-unmanageable levels of stress.
If you aren’t limerent for this man, you need to walk away. Trust me – you’ll be doing the fellow a huge kindness. Even though you’re not a bad person, he needs time and space away from you for his nervous system to reset. Unwitting LOs usually can’t communicate their lack of interest effectively to the limerent party. The limerent will keep misinterpreting everything as signs of hidden interest.
Sometimes people with incompatible sexual orientations do fall into limerence for each other. However, if everyone’s sexual orientation is out in the open, then maybe this is an example of platonic limerence? Or even an example of platonic mutual limerence? I.e. limerence that lacks an obvious romantic/sexual element?
If you conclude you and this man are in mutual limerence, you really have to ask yourself whether that’s something you find desirable or not? It sounds like things aren’t going so well. He’s stressed. You’re stressed. Not very cosy or conducive to bliss, if you ask me…
Is there any possibility you got the situation back-the-front, and you’re an LO on the receiving end of your friend’s unwanted obsession with you? Unwanted because the man is blaming you for angry outbursts? Angry outbursts that are prompted by intense feelings (on his part) which you don’t actually reciprocate?
Are you afraid of the slot machine or … are you the slot machine? Have you allowed yourself to become the equivalent of a slot machine for another human being? Could you unintentionally be stressing your friend out? If so, it’s still a good idea to go NC. In fact, going NC might benefit both you and your friend. Both of you will get the time and the space needed for nervous systems to reset.
This post is in response to Camilla George’s post and following string: https://livingwithlimerence.com/bits-and-pieces-of-news/#comment-100722
“The two studies that used self-report measures found that fearful attachment characterized BPD. For Dutton and colleagues,35 both fearful and preoccupied attachment, as assessed by the RQ and RSQ in abusive men, were predictive for borderline personality, but fearful attachment was so strong a predictor that the authors concluded that having borderline personality was the prototype for this particular attachment style.” – https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1857277/
Considering what the pros said about LO #2, I think Dutton was right.
Borderlines also appear to have their own MBTI type, ESFJ.
“Those who have not had the advantage of developing their own values by weighing them against a good external value system may develop very questionable values. In such cases, the ESFJ might genuinely believe in the integrity of their skewed value system, without having any understanding of internal values to set them straight. In weighing their values against society, they might find plenty of support for whatever moral transgression they wish to justify. This type of ESFJ might be a dangerous person indeed. Extraverted Feeling drives them to control and manipulate, and their lack of Intuition prevents them from seeing the big picture. They’re usually quite popular and good with people, and good at manipulating them. Unlike their ENFJ cousin, they don’t have Intuition to help them understand the real consequences of their actions. They are driven to manipulate others to achieve their own ends, yet they believe that they are following a solid moral code of conduct.” – https://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESFJ.html
This also describes LO #2.
For what it’s worth, I’m not picking up much of Dutton or see any ESFJs in the posts but I don’t know any of you very well. I don’t think anybody on LwL identifies as an ESFJ. I don’t think anyone ever has. If you look at https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-common-is-limerence/, ESFJs rank pretty low in infatuation.
If you want to pull ESFJ strings:
https://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESFJ-rel.html
“To a lesser degree, the dominant Extraverted Thinking types (ESTJ and ENTJ) might also present a challenge to the ESFJ, as two dominant Extraverted Judgers will almost always vie for control in a relationship.” – https://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESFJ-compatibility.html
I’m an ENTJ. LO #2 told me to my face, “I can’t control you.” She was right, she couldn’t.
“The two studies that used self-report measures found that fearful attachment characterized BPD. For Dutton and colleagues,35 both fearful and preoccupied attachment, as assessed by the RQ and RSQ in abusive men, were predictive for borderline personality, but fearful attachment was so strong a predictor that the authors concluded that having borderline personality was the prototype for this particular attachment style.”
I probably read this wrong, but are they speculating a specific attachment type usually leads to this specific personality disorder if not addressed early enough?
That doesn’t sound right, so I probably misinterpreted it.
LF,
The statement means the researchers concluded that someone has to have BPD to have a Fearful-Avoidant attachment style.
So, if a pro tags someone as Fearful-Avoidant, Dutton & Co. would say they’re more likely than not, a Borderline.
That’s incredibly half-baked on their behalf, and I would go as far as to say- dangerous speculation.
An attachment style could lead to a personality style, but to link it with a disorder is far fetched.
I’ll give you an example they somehow missed: a fearful avoidant has both avoidance tendencies and an intense fear of rejection. They could just as likely develop avoidant personality disorder, if they develop a disorder at all.
This study is not ready for prime time, I’m afraid.
It makes me glad that people like Dr Bellamy are putting in the proper research, and are helping people.
LF,
“An attachment style could lead to a personality style, but to link it with a disorder is far fetched.”
I agree. I’m a fearful avoidant (from what I can tell), but I am not borderline. I’ve been to several different therapists in my life. Not one has ever suggested or even hinted I’m a borderline. The topic has never come up.
And I think the problem with trying to diagnose an LO … is that the focus shifts from the limerent to the LO. Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter what’s wrong with the LO.
Ultimately, limerence is about the limerent. The focus should be on ourselves. Fixing or at least understanding the limerent tendencies.
And I agree with you, Marcia, that a limerent might think an LO is “avoidant” when they really just aren’t romantically interested and don’t want to give the wrong idea! A person has to be very careful with “diagnoses.”
Serial,
“And I agree with you, Marcia, that a limerent might think an LO is “avoidant” when they really just aren’t romantically interested and don’t want to give the wrong idea! A person has to be very careful with “diagnoses.””
I agree. I could see looking into the personality traits of people one was attracted to if there was some kind of pattern. Is the limerent picking the wrong people over and over again? But, overall, it goes back to the limerent.
I have a question for the more experienced people. I notice that I am feeling very negative toward LO. I have no desire to see him, but my negativity seems to be based on fear. He has snapped at me one too many times and I am apprehensive about how he may act.
He’s extremely stressed out about selling his house and moving, which is perfectly understandable. Unfortunately, he tends to take it out on me if I have the misfortune of being around him when he feels overwhelmed.
So my question is–how does fear factor into all of this? I assumed the goal was to become indifferent toward a LO. Fear and indifference are not the same thing.
Or is fear just part of being addicted?
Maybe it’s not fear.
Maybe you just have too much self-respect to take crap from a pissant when you don’t deserve it. That’s a good thing.
In the 5 Stages, you have to go through anger to get to indifference. Anger is a useful emotion provided that you don’t get stuck there.
To LE:
Thank you for your response. Are you saying that fear and anger are two sides of the same coin?
According to Elizabeth Kubler Ross, the 5 Stages of Grief are:
Denial
Bargaining
Depression
Anger
Acceptance
The end of an LE can be considered a loss worthy of grief. It’s a recurrent topic on LwL and DrL discusses it in several blogs.
Acceptance means different things to different people. Indifference seems to be a fairly common form of acceptance. It was mine.
Like most things here, there’s a lot of nuance.
To LE:
I guess I don’t understand the denial and bargaining parts. Lots of depression and anger, though.
ND,
The 5 Stages are a model, not a rule. They’re different for everybody. You can stay in some stages longer than others and feel some stages more intensely than others. It’s also not linear.
If you’re interested, there’s a lot of information out there on the 5 Stages.
LO #2 was an ICU nurse. She had a copy of Kubler-Ross’ book on her night stand.
L.E.
I am fairly certain my acceptance finally, was mostly indifference. She was at best just a nice lady and at worst a manipulative one. Nothing more. There’s others better deserving of my energies. Maybe approaching the three year mark of NC on June 3 is what helped.
@Adam.
“I am fairly certain my acceptance finally, was mostly indifference. She was at best just a nice lady and at worst a manipulative one. Nothing more. There’s others better deserving of my energies. Maybe approaching the three year mark of NC on June 3 is what helped.”
Where your head is at sounds very promising. I think you can be proud of all the progress you’ve made. 🙂
Norma,
I wonder if the fear is part of uncertainty, because you sometimes get a better response from him. So the fear is ‘will I or won’t I get a good response this time?’.
Uncertainty is what keeps us feeding the slot machine. Indifference is not caring if the slot machine is there or not.
To LaR:
I am definitely not indifferent. I am afraid of the slot machine.
If you don’t feed it, it can’t hurt you (at least as much).
I don’t mean to sound glib. I know it is easy to say from behind a keyboard, not at all easy in the situation. But I think the principle is right.
Norma Desmond,
Limerence is primarily about reward-seeking. So what I would like to know is this: was there a time during your limerent episode (the beginning maybe?) when you experienced more pleasant emotions regarding your LO?
Physical symptoms of limerence can include racing heart, butterflies in tummy, and sleepless nights. Having just one of these symptoms around someone doesn’t necessarily mean limerence. Always having a full constellation of nervous symptoms around someone probably does mean limerence.
I.e. does your entire nervous system go into overdrive when you’re around this man? Was there a point in time you experienced said overdrive as pleasurable rather than unpleasant? Can you state any emotions you can remember feeling other than fear? (Joy maybe? Elation? Girlish giddiness?) It’s really important to learn to see your own limerence from a global perspective. Limerence is like a story with multiple chapters. There’s always a start, a middle, and an end.
Limerence often feels like a rollercoaster. Perceived reciprocation = euphoria. Signs of rejection and/or indifference from LO = despair. Are you having highs and lows? Have you had highs and lows in the past? Did you enjoy any of the highs?
You claim to be “afraid of the slot machine”. Have you always felt afraid of the slot machine? If fear has been your consistent response to LO, I don’t think you’re going through limerence. People aren’t usually afraid of slot machines. Slot machines are perceived, rightly or wrongly, as sources of immense reward. 🙂
The only explanation I can think of for your fear is you’re afraid of pain. You’re afraid of the despair you know you’ll feel if your LO does something your limerent brain interprets as either rejection or indifference. The only rational reason you could have for “fear of pain” is that your LO has already hurt you in this way before, and you know how bad it hurts. Are you afraid of your LO rejecting you? Are you afraid of finding evidence of your LO’s possible indifference to you?
Limerence is about attachment more than affection once the addiction stage hits. Anger is one way your limerent brain can sneakily stay attached to LO while tricking you into believing you don’t like LO and/or are over LO. In fact, all intense and powerful emotions will keep you surreptitiously attached to LO. Liberation from obsession will only come with/after a weakening of intense emotions.
The fact you seem to be experiencing negative emotions in waves makes me think that you are in the thick of person addiction. Can you still remember positive emotions that preceded your current apparent onslaught of non-stop negative emotions? What feelings other than fear have you had around slot machine?
I never experienced fear around my LO. Vague anxiety – yes. Outright fear – no. However, he was already out of the picture when my mind started unravelling. I had the luxury of being able to fall apart several years later in private. 🤔
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
Yes, I used to feel euphoric around LO. I felt like a clumsy teenager on a first date. I used to love being around LO and felt I could tell him anything.
Then I started to notice his temper. I have a fear of men with bad tempers.
LO has yelled at me from time to time, and has always apologized afterward. When he apologized, I seemed to feel closer to him than ever.
However, last Saturday, he called me “selfish” and “passive-aggressive.” I don’t see where either one of these applies, and I was very put off. When he apologized, I still felt cold and angry.
He always writes it off to stress, but I think this is just who he is. He flies off the handle easily, which makes me extremely uncomfortable.
Anybody in my life who I know is likely to snap at me at any moment, man or woman, I tend to feel fear and avoid that person.
These outbursts are irrational and I can never see them coming. They take too much out of me.
ND,
The “selfish” and “Passive-Aggressive” comments come across as pure projection on his part.
If you want to pull the Passive-Aggressive string, check out Martin Kantor’s Book “Distancing.” If you poke around the Internet, you can probably download it for free. There’s a section in the co-morbidity chapter on Passive-Aggressive behavior. It’s one of the best I’ve come across.
Also, I recommend you check out, https://sharischreiber.com/whos-doing-your-dirty-work/
I love Schreiber’s work.
The problem isn’t you, it’s him. Quit trying to convince yourself it’s not.
If somebody makes you feel fearful, anxious and take too much out of you, write them off. Sometimes, it’s difficult but necessary.
Consider yourself lucky that you’re not married to him, have no co-mingled assets, and, best of all, no kids with the guy.
To L.E.:
Thank you so, so much for answering me! I really appreciate your comments and will check out the links.
I am so glad you pointed out that this is projection on his part–I was scratching my head and wondering how he came up with this stuff.
You have given me a tremendous uplift and I am very grateful.
@ND.
Forgive me for being blunt. To me, it sounds like you and your LO have developed a dynamic that is incredibly unhealthy for both of you…
I’m no expert, but I think trauma bonds are formed when sweet behaviour alternates with cruel behaviour in a relationship. The brain likely treats sweet/cruel behaviour as intermittent reinforcement and gets addicted. Also, people may ruminate on how to get more of the sweet stuff or how not to set the other person off. The “virtuous” party in the relationship may start acting pretty toxic themselves. In reality, it’s the dance that’s toxic. Wonderful humans may be sucked into performing this toxic dance.
If intermittent reinforcement is done on purpose by one person, that could be called abusive. If two people are both feeding coins into slot machines and feverishly pressing buttons, that at the very least is an unhealthy way of sustaining emotional investment in a relationship. Endless fighting-and-making-up isn’t healthy in a relationship if it’s become a pattern. And it’s definitely not a healthy thing to do with someone you’re not dating.
Your LO may be projecting traits such as “passive-aggression” onto you. However, if you care deeply about his projections and can’t just laugh off wildly inaccurate projections, that needs to be taken as a symptom of addiction on your part. Your LO is responsible for any wilfully abusive behaviour he engages in. You alone are responsible for acknowledging and seeking help for your addiction. You are likely struggling with addiction if you find you can’t just voluntarily walk away from the drama cycle.
If your mind were clear, you could simply say “no” to any behaviour that makes you feel uncomfortable. If the thought of saying “no” to dysfunctional behaviour fills you with dread, your own nervous system is feeding off the drama cycle in an unhealthy way i.e. you’re responding like a person in a trauma bond. You still get “rewards” (dopamine hits) from the toxic dance. You stay in the dance to get more “rewards” (dopamine hits).
You are not responsible for managing your LO’s emotions. Only your LO is responsible for managing his own emotions. His bad temper is his problem. Don’t take responsibility for other people’s problems. If your LO requires you to placate him, something has gone wrong in the friendship. You are not dating this man. He is a friend only. A true friendship between a straight woman and a gay man would be enjoyable and stress-free. 🙂
To Sammy:
You always give me great food for thought. I don’t “laugh off wildly” his projections, I am disturbed by them. I don’t think our friendship will survive his upcoming cross-country move, but I don’t think it’s worth salvaging.
I hesitate to talk to him, because he’s always in the middle of some crisis, and I fear I will end up on the receiving end of his bad temper.
I haven’t run into him all week, and that’s fine with me.
Hi everyone. A mostly unrelated post here.
I haven’t been active in this community for a year or so. I found this community after a limerent episode that started over 2 years ago for a woman with whom I had had a limerent episode 23 years earlier, and with whom I had very little contact since! The second limerent episode came after probably 5 years of no contact and 15 years of very limited contact with LO, and was sparked by a dream. Completely in my head. The episode was nonetheless very intense. You might be able to find my story in a blog comment section from around November or December 2023 under the pseudonym “Sleepless”.
I feel I have mostly recovered from that episode, at least in terms of not suffering constant ruminations and need to contact LO. Since I’m mostly OK on that front, I have been staying away from this site partially because it tends to remind me of LO, which obviously defeats the purpose at this stage.
I am 21 years married with my SO, a woman who I do love, but perhaps never had the intensity of LO.
Anyway, the reason I am posting again now is that I had a “glimmer” last week, with another woman. It was quite intense and, since there is almost 100% chance that I will never see this woman again, I am hopeful it will fade fast. But I thought since writing about the previous experiences helped me (mostly) get over them, maybe writing this out can help me now.
Last week I was on a work trip at a location I’ve never been to before and have no plans to go again. I was driving from one spot to another 30 minutes away, and was looking for a place to grab a bite to eat. After driving for a while without seeing an obvious place for lunch, I told myself I would pull off at the next parking lot to look for something on GPS. The next spot I found to pull off the road was actually a country store with a deli, which was perfect, so I got out and went inside.
There was quite a line at the counter, so I browsed the store and found some interesting candy to take home to my daughters. Not seeing anything else of particular interest, I went ahead and got in line. There were two employees working the registers, one making coffees, and another on the opposite side of the counter from me, facing away from me cleaning the deli meat slicer. She finished up and put away her cleaning supplies and faced towards me.
As I looked up, our eyes met directly. At first I thought she was going to offer to take my order, but our eyes lingered a second or two too long and I started to feel awkward. I think we both looked awkwardly away, and then back. It was almost like seeing someone familiar, who you can’t quite place. She offered me a greeting and I muttered something back. I felt goofy and boyish. There was a faint glimmer.
I could have probably ignored that one, as it was my turn to place my order at the register next. I placed my order for the candy I had selected, a coffee, sandwich and brownie. After a moment, the woman with whom I had exchanged the awkward greeting shooed away the younger cashier, and took over ringing me up. She was pleasant and witty; I was shy, looking down and at a loss for words. Here was a glimmer my brain would not allow me to ignore.
She finished ringing up the other customers in line while I waited for my sandwich, and eventually I was the only customer remaining. It was clear to me that she was the charisma of the place, as the other younger employees flitted around her and her presence seemed to captivate those around her. Or at least that’s what it seemed like to me. With the other employees around, I did not feel I could strike up a conversation. Then my sandwich was ready, and she brought it over to me. Since I was the only customer remaining, she exclaimed, “It has to be you!”
I think I mumbled back, “It has to be me!” and thanked her, and walked back to my car, exhilarated. There was a rush that kept me high for the next few hours. It made me feel silly, and all I could do was shake my head and smile for the next several hours.
The only thing I know about this woman is where she works and that somehow I felt we had a few moments of connection. Given that her location is 2,500 miles away in a state I’ve never been to before and likely won’t again anytime soon, there is very little chance of having contact. I just wanted to post this to acknowledge to myself and to this community that the glimmer was real, that I recognize it as a function of brain chemistry, and that I am hopeful that I can let it rush over and past me and get back to my real life with my wife! It is probably also important to acknowledge that this probably impacted me in this way partially because our marriage currently is not in top shape and we need to get back to working on it.
Thanks for reading!
-Sleepless
“I am 21 years married with my SO, a woman who I do love, but perhaps never had the intensity of LO.”
So, I wrote this to another poster. But you are feeling more intensely for an LO BECAUSE you have an SO and can’t have her. It’s not a fair comparison. The barriers make you want it more, make you long for it more. And your feelings then SEEM really big.
You may be limerent in part because of the barriers, not despite.
And I think that’s an important thing to remember moving forward with this recent glimmer or any other in the future.
“I just wanted to post this to acknowledge to myself and to this community that the glimmer was real, that I recognize it as a function of brain chemistry, and that I am hopeful that I can let it rush over and past me and get back to my real life with my wife!”
Exactly. It was just a nice moment.
Hi Marcia! Thanks for your reply!
I think you are mostly right. However, I will note that my original limerence, 25+ years ago now, was before either of us were married. That does not mean there weren’t barriers to us being together, though, real or imagined. No time to write that all down here at the moment, it is in a post from a year and a half ago. I’ll see if I can dig it up later today.
Sleepless,
“That does not mean there weren’t barriers to us being together, though, real or imagined.”
You can both be single and there can still be barriers. (One person is not as interested or holding back, for example.)
Basically, if it’s not fully satisfying to the limerent (it becomes a serious relationship, for example) … there’ll be that longing and hoping, which makes the LO seem like super human.
But if it’s an SO, who you probably got together with pretty easily, there wasn’t any uncertainty … it’s going to be a different experience in terms of the intensity level.
@Marcia.
“Exactly. It was just a nice moment.”
The advice you give Sleepless here eerily echoes this nugget of wisdom from Lucy Bain:
“Some people cross your path and become a chapter, and others are just a moment. Because sometimes, no matter how powerful the moment feels to you, that’s all it was for them.”
You just might ace your end-of-year limerence exams, after all. Should I feel threatened? Will your name top the list of outstanding achievers? 🙂
Sammy,
“Lucy Bain”
I just looked her up. Looks like she wrote several books about limerence.
“Should I feel threatened? Will your name top the list of outstanding achievers? 🙂”
I’ve had a little setback.
I’ll be moving soon to a place with only women and gay men. You in? 🙂
I am maintaining NC well enough, but I am suffering horrific anxiety.
Does anyone have any advice?
Thanks in advance.
ND,
Early NC takes a lot of effort. Sometimes, it takes everything you have in you to keep things together. I mean everything.
Try the standard relaxation techniques until things get better. It may take a little while. Take pleasure in every day you maintain NC.
https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=fccbfd771f51676b&authuser=0&q=electronic+reader+board+days+without+accident&udm=2&fbs=AIIjpHxU7SXXniUZfeShr2fp4giZ1Y6MJ25_tmWITc7uy4KIeioyp3OhN11EY0n5qfq-zEMZldv_eRjZ2XLYc5GnVnMEIxC4WQfoNDH7FwchyAayyomVtyMIlwCjX48LT0TrXSPt4cTMBEUhFjb1npEwd-pp_aRD8Rutuf9gzrxQ1X-rVJ_s4WfJYQGlZ0dCz-NY6HC6esLApXMfMf9GTGGaIaQORmX6cA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj8r8q-1MmNAxU1LFkFHaUUJdcQtKgLegQIExAB&biw=1966&bih=732&dpr=1.75
Some things you may just have to muscle through.
To LE:
Thank you. Those signs made me laugh.
Norma,
On the anxiety side, something that made a real difference to me was/is doing ‘Progressive Muscle Relaxation’ exercises. Try Googling the term or searching for it on YouTube. I am reluctant to recommend the ones I used as there was a small payment I think – but I can vouch for their quality. They were from the ‘No Panic’ website, in case. Searching wider might bring up free alternatives but I am less sure about their quality.
They’re about 20 minutes long. I get the best and most lasting results if I do them near the start of the day.
That out of the way – and I’m sorry in advance but I have to say it – the other advice is, again, don’t feed that dratted slot machine. If you don’t feed it, the anxiety you feel now should reduce a little each day. If you feed it (break NC) it is like resetting the clock to day zero. Use LwL to vent any time you are tempted to put money in the slot – people here get it. Sending you strength across the pond.
To LaR:
Thank you so much. I am getting some relief doing meditation exercises from Buddhist teacher Thich Nhat Hanh. I will take your suggestion also.
I really appreciate the response.
Checking in after another successful day of NC. I realized that something happened the last time LO got irritable with me. He has barked at me, without reason, probably five or six times in the past year, and has always apologized profusely afterward.
I appreciated the apologies but wished the incidents had never happened in the first place. Last Saturday, he lost his temper again and called me “selfish,” which I could not wrap my head around.
L.E. pointed out that this is projection on LO’s part, which I realize is true. However, I have bent over backward to be kindly and helpful to both LO and his mother. If there is one thing I am NOT, it’s selfish.
For some reason, this insult has stuck with me and has bothered me more than other things he has said.
If it helps me keep NC, then I guess it’s a good thing.
@Norma Desmond.
Please don’t take this as a personal attack, but consider this angle:
If this man is limerent for you, and you are not limerent for him, his mind absolutely will interpret your failure to reciprocate the limerent passion as “selfish”. (You are causing this man almost indescribable pain by persisting with a close relationship while not genuinely reciprocating the limerent passion).
Do you return the limerent passion or not? That is the question you must ask yourself.
Are you 100% sure you know what limerence is? Are you 100% sure you are limerent for this man? If the answers to your questions are “yes” and “yes”, successfully communicating your desire to your friend will end his pain. However, clear communication will only end your friend’s pain if he actually desires you. Also, be aware that true reciprocation can often lead to feelings fading pretty fast.
Hope this helps.
To Sammy:
Thank you for your comments.
I am not quite understanding. You may have me confused with someone else? I am limerent for my hot gay neighbor, and he obviously does not reciprocate. I disclosed to him and he said he was fine with it and we could continue being friends.
He is in the process of trying to sell his extremely-pricey house and then move cross-country to ANOTHER less-pricey house which he has already put a down-payment on. He is very stressed about this, and claims this is why he is so snappish.
I said to him that I wished I could do more to help him, and he then lashed out at me, calling me “selfish,” which I could not believe.
He has apologized, but I still have a very bad taste in my mouth.
@Norma Desmond.
“I am limerent for my hot gay neighbor, and he obviously does not reciprocate. I disclosed to him and he said he was fine with it and we could continue being friends.”
So you’re obsessively infatuated with a man who isn’t obsessively infatuated with you? You disclosed feelings. He said he doesn’t feel the same way. You’re still perversely and inappropriately choosing to stick around as his “friend”. The million-dollar question is “why”?
Your behaviour isn’t okay. Your behaviour is socially inappropriate at best. You’re actually the one in the wrong, period. It’s time to grow up, my sweet, and stop pretending you don’t have the emotional intelligence to grasp what you’re doing is out of line. No means no. Consent matters. It doesn’t matter the man said it was okay for you to hang around as his “friend”. Your limerent brain is trying to have a (now non-consensual) love affair with this man.
You are not this man’s friend. You will never be a genuine friend to this man while you harbour limerent feelings for him. Your obsessive infatuation with this man renders you 100% ineligible and unqualified for the job position of “friend”.
You get the sensation of being madly in love with someone who doesn’t feel the same way about you, and has been 100% honest and upfront with you about his lack of interest. You can’t accuse him of lying to you or of leading you on. He’s actually a “good LO”.
If you’re limerent for this man, you’ll always be giving off this intense energy when you’re around him. Lucy Bain says human beings DETEST intensity when intensity isn’t reciprocated. Your gay neighbour snaps at you because he very likely finds your intense, clingy, oddly possessive behaviour both boring and irritating – as would literally any other man on the planet, gay or straight, who finds himself in the position of not requiting your limerent passion.
“Quit trying to figure out why he is the way he is and move on.”
I hate to say it, but Limerent Emeritus is 100% right in his statement. Since your LO has been 100% honest with you about not requiting your feelings, the onus is on you to either (a) get over your limerent passion and then reconnect with this man as a real friend and not a fake friend or (b) cease all contact with this man altogether.
On an unconscious level, you’re clearly not okay with this man “just being friends with you” while you’re obsessively infatuated with him. If you were cool with the whole situation, you wouldn’t waste time on the Internet complaining about him to complete strangers.
Take some life advice from singer Bonnie Raitt: you “can’t make someone love you if they don’t”. This man isn’t able to give you what you need. Your ongoing presence in his life, even with his explicit consent, could be considered a form of manipulation and/or harassment. His angry outbursts are a legitimate response to harassment. You are indeed being incredibly selfish by clinging to this friendship when you’re incapable of being a friend.
I repeat – you are NOT this man’s authentic friend. You CAN’T be this man’s authentic friend while you’re still obsessed with him. You don’t care about him in the way a friend cares about another friend. You have an ulterior motive for staying in the relationship and the man can always sense that. Your continual self-deception (your inability to see your own selfishness) is clearly getting on his nerves.
@Norma Desmond.
I realise that what I said to you above might come across as a little abrasive. So I’m including a link to an article by Lucy Bain that may explain things a lot more skilfully:
https://discover.hubpages.com/relationships/friendshiporinfatuation
The title of the article is “Five Reasons to Never Befriend Someone You Love: The Golden Rule of Infatuation”.
If you don’t feel well enough to read the article, I’ll just list Lucy’s five main points out here for you. Also, other people may find the five points interesting, and wish to discuss them elsewhere:
(1) You’ll Act Like You’re Dating Them
(2) You’ll Often Feel Embarrassed, Depressed and Angry
(3) Your Real, Platonic Friends Will Seem Boring to You
(4) The ‘Friendship’ Will Always Be Unbalanced, and You’ll Want More
(5) The Obvious: You’ll Never Be a True Friend to Your Crush
ND,
Is there a chance your LO might be on the Autism spectrum?
The reason I ask is from experience someone on the spectrum can misread social cues and respond inappropriately with respect to the situation.
They can say some insensitive or hurtful things but you don’t sense any malice or vindictiveness in them. That’s because there isn’t any. It doesn’t make them any easier to deal with.
I recently reconnected with an old HS chum. He said that he was on the spectrum which explained a lot of why people perceived him as they did then.
He related some information about something that I probably had more information about than he did. I think he had a very wrong idea of things but there was no tactful way to say that and there was nothing to be done about it now, so I didn’t. I think a girl was nice to him in HS and he read more into it than there was. He carried it with him for 50 years. I knew them both pretty well and I don’t see a snowball’s chance in hell they would have ended up together. Stranger things have happened but I’d put money against this one.
Stick with facts. What he says or does are facts. Why he says or does them are presumption and speculation. It’s not fact that kill you, it’s the presumption and speculation.
The fact is that interacting with him makes you feel fearful, anxious, angry and cause you to doubt yourself.
Only about 10% of any iceberg is visible above the surface and it’s not what you see that sinks you.
How old is this guy and what is his relationship with his mother. If he’s enmeshed with her, you’re in way over your head.
Quit trying to figure out why he is the way he is and move on.
To L.E.
I have wondered if he’s on the autism spectrum. I guess I will never know.
He’s 66 and his mother is 89. I have wondered about the enmeshment issues with his mother. He is dragging her cross-country with him to a freezing climate where she knows no one.
The rest of her family is here, where we have a mild climate. All of her other children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren are within a short driving distance. Yet she’s moving with him.
👩🦰 🏃,
Gee, I did not know that red hair can hold so much insights..
👩🦰 🏃,
Based on my limited experiences, kids in Autism spectrum are excellent in number, machine, maps, memories, but limited in language art and communication skills (my xSO although he became a lawyer), like your example.
My question is: can kids in the spectrum be the opposite of the above list? How would it look like in reality if they are highly gifted in language art but still Autistic, is it even possible? 🧐.
What do you think Elon Musk and Bill Gates’ language skills? The two are “diagnosed” as being in the spectrum.
To Snow:
As far as I know, some autistic people have outstanding communication skills. Then there are autistic people who are completely non-verbal.
I am no expert. Maybe somebody smarter can chime in.
Thank you, Norma, for the information.
Then if they have “outstanding communication skills,’ could we assume that they understand social cues and respond appropriately with respect to social situations?
If they do, then why, or in what others ways, are they still considered “artistic”?
To Snow:
I am not an expert. I think SOME autistic people have good communication skills, but many do not. Some are high-functioning, some are non-verbal and need 24/7 care. And everything in between. I suspect that Elon Musk may be high-functioning autistic.
I have a friend who has an autistic son who cannot speak and cannot be left alone for even a few minutes.
Checking in after another successful day of No Contact. I tried telling a friend of mine what I was going through. I described limerence, sent her a link to one of Dr. Tom’s videos, and I described the anxiety.
Her response was, “Do you know how crazy that sounds?”
And I realized that, as kindly as she is, she has absolutely no idea what this feels like.
It makes me appreciate everyone here who has shown me acceptance and kindness. If all I got from the outside world was “do you know how crazy that sounds?”, it would be very depressing, indeed.
Thank you for all your love and support. It’s what keeps me going.
ND,
Have you read https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-two-tribes/
To LE:
I have, yes. Thank you.
“If all I got from the outside world was “do you know how crazy that sounds?”, it would be very depressing, indeed.”
@ND,
I told a few people about my LE. One said he understood because he suffers from anxiety and panic attacks. Another friend didn’t get it and basically said the same thing, about how crazy it sounds. I did my best to explain but to no avail. After awhile I gave up. His solutions were too cut and dry. Like basically he thought it would be easy to shut down. Like shutting off a light switch.
It doesn’t work that way does it??
Until one has walked this path and felt the weight, they will never get it..
@MJ.
“Until one has walked this path and felt the weight, they will never get it…”
I think a good way to describe limerence is “drowning in one’s own intrusive thoughts”. 😉
Dear Sammy:
You do have a marvelous way with words. Please keep talking.
To MJ:
I do find it odd that people don’t have ANY frame of reference in their own lives. Maybe they haven’t experienced limerence, but surely they have some way of identifying? My friend, who is very kindly and supportive in most situations, kept saying, “Just forget about him!”
If it were that easy, don’t you think I would have already done that?
We are all neighbors who live in the same general area. She doesn’t know LO, but she has seen him and thinks he’s gross. She thinks his big, fancy house is “an eyesore.” Maybe she is affected by the fact that she is protective of me and doesn’t want me to be hurt anymore.
Well i suppose the question on time and stages pre-supposes a purposeful attempt to end limerence. Also lots of questions about how do you measure restarts and LC, but here goes:
LO3: brief, weird colleague thing after my dad died
– Decision to go No (Low) Contact – a week
– Early wins, Laborious phase – a week
– Maintenance phase – a few weeks
– Freedom (no longer particularly want contact) – never had a relapse. I randomly had to speak to her a few weeks ago for somethign about work/industry, although no contact for years. Was fine, nice, like an old friend who i dont have too much in common with anymore.
LO2 recent relapse after 20ish years and 10 years of not noticing it:
– Decision to go No (Low) Contact on/off with early wins – maybe a month at most
– Laborious phase – lots of wobbles for 3 month
– Maintenance phase – 2 months
– Freedom phase – started maybe a month ago or so, tied to a purposeful decision to delete all my social media as I realized how poisonous it was becoming for me looking at others peoples lives rather than the real value I was getting in mine from time spent on it. I actually wrote a message to her apologizing for being a bit weird last year, as i felt like i was really secure and free and abl le to write without being particualrly bothered if she replied mroe than generally wnating to ehar from friends who you write to, and I suppose myself being over the associated mid life crisis.
Lo1 was just a massive put myself in the friendzone fail so forget that.
Now just to avoid ever having to deal with this cycle again….