Another visit to the virtual coffee house at LwL, this time with a very definite agenda on my part.
All the while that I was writing this blog pseudonymously as Dr L, I didn’t worry much about traffic or visibility or page rankings or – ugh – “follower” count. I wanted to attract an audience, of course, but was happy for that to happen organically, as I was mainly just writing about what I was interested in and hoping kindred spirits would find me.
I’m not planning on changing that vibe, because it’s what makes it fun, but my circumstances have changed, so my approach needs to change a bit too.
I’m now blogging as me, and I have a book to promote. Even more consequentially, I really meant it when I said I was going all in on Living with Limerence when I first deanonymised.
Last week I quit my academic job. I no longer have an Associate Professor’s salary to fund this site, or my family, so I need to start being a bit more mindful about how I’m going to make ends meet. It was a real Purposeful Decision moment for me. I was no longer enjoying my University job, and this site was much more fulfilling, so, I went all in with a “burning the boats” strategy.
I am properly committed now.
Just to be clear: I am not a reckless fool. I do have a plan, and it isn’t going to involve asking for donations or plastering ads all over the site, or hawking affiliate programs to anyone who can be persuaded to click on a link. Instead, my plan is to build useful products that will help people who have been affected by limerence.
The book is one of these products, and the Emergency deprogramming course is another. I intend to add more, but only after I’ve actually tested whether they are useful and that there is a big enough need for them out there. The way to determine that, of course, is to tell the world about them so the people that need them know they exist.
Hardly revolutionary as a business strategy, but the last part of that plan is the bit I need to focus on now.
Search
So far, all the growth for this site has been Google-driven. I’ve done very occasional podcasts and featured in some newspaper articles, which give short term spikes of growth, but Big Daddy Google has been the source of all the slow steady growth. However, Google giveth but can also taketh away.
A huge earthquake has been happening in the blogging community lately, where excellent personal sites that had been motoring along happily for years have suddenly had a massive drop in their search rankings. Sometimes, this means viable businesses that were getting reliable income from ads and affiliate marketing have had 90% of their revenues wiped out overnight.
Living with Limerence hasn’t been hit that hard. It’s difficult for me to be sure about analytics data (because I have very strict privacy settings that block any personal data being sent to Google, and I managed to break it entirely for a few days a month ago), but I seem to be down about 25% since the last update. Not trivial, but not disastrous.
Speaking for myself, I’ve also noticed that when I search for something on Google nowadays the results tend to be less useful than they used to be, and bloated with superficial articles by high status sites, rather than in-depth content by experts. Add in the fact that AI chat bots can provide quick (and possibly even correct) answers to general questions, and the future of search looks shaky.
What all this preamble adds up to is the inescapable conclusion that I need to find new ways to reach out to limerents and partners in distress.
Social channels
I’ve never been on social media. Not through any grand principle or philosophical aversion, I’m just a late stage Gen-Xer who was already well into adulthood when the sites took off, and I never really got started. I used to browse Twitter, until that became impossible without creating an account. I did try to join Facebook, but they took a bizarre aversion to me and permanently banned my fledgling account before I had even posted anything (not even a profile picture, let alone any content). They also seem to have left some sort of evil taint on my laptop, as I can’t even open a new account with a different email without it also getting an instant permaban.
Don’t know what Zuckerberg has against me, but I’m taking it as an omen that Facebook isn’t for me.
Anyway, this wasn’t meant to be a whinge, just to say that I am a newbie social media user, and trying to figure things out.
That’s where the agenda for this post comes in.
I’ve joined TwitterX and am going to start posting about limerence, purposeful living, and random other stuff on the platform. So… and I guess I’d better get used to this… please like and subscribe! Follow me on X! Here’s a button:
OK, so I’ve tried to be cute about it, but this is just a straight request to head over and check out my account and follow if you feel like it.
I’m starting with X, with the plan to move onto other platforms soon (LinkedIn next, probably).
Suggestions
Finally, I have a question. Because I’ve not been on the social platforms for long, I am obviously a bit behind on the “social” part. I’ve browsed around on X a bit and it seems to be one third friends updating each other about their lives and thoughts, one third big name accounts posting an update once in a blue moon, and one third bear pit. With mad angry bears. With fricking lasers.
So, I’m also looking for recommendations for good accounts to follow.
A lot of the luminaries in the popular science field seem to barely use X, other than for occasional announcements, so I’m looking for good accounts who post about love and purposeful living more regularly, so I can engage a bit and start to build up a network while having some fun.
So, have at it in the comments – suggest some fun and engaging people to follow.
Who’s worth listening to?
I am more on Instagram and LinkedIn than X. My faves are; Stephen Bartlett, Diary of a CEO. One day, you may even be interviewed by him, and we all be cheering for you. Dr Ramani, Patrick Teahan. Dr Rangan Chatterjee. Congratulations on the LIFE altering deep plunge into self employment!
Dear Dr L,
Wow Big move. That’s awesome
The best of luck to you 🤞👍
Privacy settings on social media are a priority I think I would be reluctant to follow on Twitter (I refuse to call it X) as to my best knowledge others can see who I follow. Same possibly on Insta which I do not use. I find LinkedIn to be a dead space which has almost no activity besides being sent requests and vaguely knowing that people have changed job/how to contact them. But maybe that’s just in my field. The beauty of here is the anonymity and I imagine others may also worry about that aspect. Certainly sharing experiences anonymously and nor being identified on non anonymous platforms is a concern that I would have.
I like LaR’s YouTube suggestion.
Try and get a Wikipedia entry? That’s Old Skool.
FB is heavily used by businesses and (and the middle aged 🤣🫣) so may be another good option with a different IP address to get around the blockage.
As for Google getting worse. I read an article a while back about the reasons for this in the Guardian (the article had “Dead Physicist” in the title). It argues that it’s not actually worse, (just losing the whack a mole battle with dubious manipulators of algorithm), but I dont believe it. Whether there is advertising totally trumps *relevance* in search algorithms these days. And all the small and independent publishers and bloggers say otherwise, blaming the poor search engines for fall in traffic. You would imagine other search engines would step up to plug the quality gap. 🤔
Google has AI in the search now too. It moves more and more in the direction of trying to tell us what we want to see instead of responding to what we ask it to see. When Google was
founded, its founders used the mantra “don’t be evil”. It meant, in essence, don’t do what Google is doing now.
I don’t know loads about this but DuckDuckGo and Ecosia might be decent search engine alternatives.
Thank you for highlighting the AI bit LaR! Yes, Google is more like a chatbot than a search engine – I need to keep dismissing ‘helpful’ suggestions. Although once in a blue moon it does bring up search terms that I hadn’t thought of. Thanks for alternative suggestions too.
But yes, well done Dr Tom for leaving academia. I bet there are old friends and colleagues there who would whip up some ingenious ideas on novelty and monetisation strategy…. I would be heading straight across to former colleagues in the Business School followed by old friends in Computer Sciences 🤑🤓🥸😎
I echo Camilla’s congrats on this life changing decision. You will make it work!
Twitter / X use has peaked and is falling among certain types (the types you will have worked with and around). But I am not sure about that in the general population. More people seem to talk about LinkedIn these days. Getting followers on Twitter, eg the people who read you here, also comes with the ‘decloaking ourselves’ problem.
Sorry that sounds doomy – isn’t meant to, but I would say have Twitter among a basket of approaches, rather than rely on it. Other people here will be much more ‘social-savvy’ than me and can suggest the details. My quite basic recommendation is I’d say you could make YouTube videos (people can watch them anonymously) – you have 8 years of archives here for the topics of them …
… Dr L the ‘influencer’!
Good luck! And also thank you for saying you will keep this forum in similar to the current form too. Many will appreciate that along with me.
Content creators also get paid on YouTube. It’s actually happened by accident to people I know who posted valuable videos. Although the way to make it viable is lots of short vids and probably wider than limerence(we are a rare breed!) to living well (and loving well). The sorts of thing people watch on their lunch hour at work…
I meant * popular* videos!
Thanks all for the suggestions. Yes, Youtube is definitely going to be part of the picture going forward.
Interesting about X and how it’s changing. I was a bit surprised about the number of “passive” accounts, in the sense of people who just post their announcements but don’t otherwise engage.
Political X seems more lively than ever, though.
I think YouTube is your best bet. Then you can parse content for Instagram/tiktok.
Catchy intro music (brief), keep it interesting and funny, predetermine your format, your ambience, your spot (studio) where you film, even your style of clothes, frequency of new content, your graphics, any animation you might use etc. you might think of using a professional company to get set up as first impressions ate important!
Linked in is viewed with ridicule in many circles these days.
Congratulations on the career pivot and I’m sure you’ll go viral in no time!
As many others have posted, I also will vouch for YouTube as it seems like it would be one of the easiest and best platforms to get noticed. Its really all I use since I’m not on FB, Insta, X or any other media outlet. (Since LO is, it’s better I just avoid it.)
I would not have found LwL had it not been a miscellaneous comment found on Crappy Childhood Fairies channel, discussing Limerence. This site has proven invaluable to proceed myself through the madness. I’m looking forward to whatever the Good Doctor has in store.
Congratulations and keep up the great work you always do for us..
Dr L,
Firstly, the best of luck with this huge life change! The really scary bit is when you eventually employ others!
When I first found this site (through Google) the reason why I stuck with it was that you had actual expert knowledge. You were a “proper academic” and as close as I could find to an authority on the subject of limerence. This is your strength, I think. By all means create social media accounts but please do not dilute your content!
I think I’m a bit younger than you but I was also late to the game with social media. I dislike the idea of self promotion and of living my life in public. I also need to avoid certain social media because of my own LO! I’m afraid this means I won’t be following you on anything. I do have a LinkedIn account and I think you should too, not because clients will find you that way, but because now that you don’t have the kudos of an academic post, it will allow people to check your CV. It gives you the space to show why people should listen to you, over possibly vapid influencers with no knowledge of the subject. Probably don’t pay for the upgraded account. Linkedin will also allow people like podcast hosts to find you, and that is something else that maybe you could look into. I am much more likely to listen to a podcast on something like Wondery, than I am to follow someone on social media. I can do this while I am walking, cooking the dinner or gardening, for example, and it doesn’t distract me from my work in the way that having social media notifications on my phone or computer might. Patreon podcasts can be good too and patrons often use obvious pseudonyms. There are awards for podcasting which would boost your visibility.
I hope this works out for you and your family.
You might check out Substack. It’s possible to make some $$ there and I think the limerence niche is pretty open on that platform.
How about Patreon? Substack was mentioned above already. These two would be my strongest rekommendations.
Reddit is probably a good way to dig up limerents, if only because there
already are good forums there :
https://www.reddit.com/r/limerence
And maybe also Mastodon/fediverse
Recently I wiped my Google search history and my search results improved. But it’s still pages and pages of junk until I give up in frustration. Quora and Reddit seem to have the best results–but it’s people who don’t know the answer replying to someone who asked the same question. And sometimes they get insulting, so the replies are useless. I also have a blog which used to do lots better than it does now. Lately I’m doing well if I get 10 hits in a day. Thanks, Google! 🙄
One of the blogs I follow is lifemathmoney https://lifemathmoney.com/who-is-harsh-strongman-and-what-this-blog-is-about/
He has a section on making money online, eg https://lifemathmoney.com/how-to-make-money-online/
Lots of stuff you’ll find interesting and pertinent.
Some of it is useful even to those without an online business, eg https://lifemathmoney.com/why-you-should-delete-your-social-media/
Hi Dr.L , wow, more big news from you !
I wish you well with your post- academia career. This must be a big step and I admire your courage very much.
I’m not active on twitter or F/b. LinkedIn is ok for what it is. You should definitely be on it to connect with others for career opportunities, podcasts, events, talks etc
I’ve recently got into Instagram. It’s a bit addictive!
There are lots of accounts for women to follow on beauty, fitness, well-being etc.
I notice anti-aging, menopause is a current hook. How dare they target me with that theme !
There are some good accounts to follow, and CamillaG recommended some that I also follow. I like Mel Robbins too and a whole bunch of others that are less high-brow.
On any social media you need to be pretty active with a certain frequency, so that needs commitment.
Also I would say you may need to consider your broarder expertise and topics that you can cover, as I’m not sure limerence alone will sustain.
Can you use your neuroscience expertise to address other issues ( eg procrastination ? asking for a friend)
As others point out above, if your offering is just limerence, you may not get a huge number of followers or open engagement, as it’s maybe too sensitive a topic for many to associate with their profiles.
( For reference, there is really amazing account on Instagram that I follow but sadly don’t ever ‘like’ or add comments to because I can’t be anonymous like I can here. The account holder gets very few ‘likes’ overall but I still hope she secures enough traffic to her weekly podcast ).
Oh yes, and just to add that I wish you well for your talk this week.
Hi Imho,
would you mind sharing which Instagram account that is? Doesn’t have to be a link, just a name for searching.Sounds interesting. Thanks!
You Tube most definitely, I watch a lot of it for different things.
Also quora and reddit are very popular but you really have to sift through a lot of ads and quite frankly there are a lot of crazies there as well. Some good stuff if you take the time to find legit people to follow.
Not on Twitter or Insta anymore, just wayyyyy to much social media for me. My middle aged brain was discombobulating. My FOMO quickly faded.
Podcasts are my thing lately, I listen as I drive, run and clean house. Absolutely love them!. I usually use Spotify, but there are many out there.
I am sure you will find your niche and a following in due time. It’s a given.
And you will still have us! Your original Limerence toddlers that are growing and learning thanks to you and your Blog.
Best of luck with your new endeavors, may they grow and flourish.
DrL,
I know little about social media, and prefer kindle books. Daily Youtube (shorter than 15-20 mins.) and occasional podcasts (up to 90 mins) are two places for me to visit, the latter in depth talk/disccusion is really good for my walking, housekeeping, and taking metro (they don’t require wifi).
Never had twitter account and would not join it for any reasons; never posted on Instagram and will disconnect it after having left my last work, visit linked in or facebook once very 1 or 2 years, never follow any memes anywhere. I scan headlines 4 major international newspears and hear about social media’s gossips or sensations.
LwL is the first blog site I have ever participated in the whole WWW, and I cannot follow your new sites if anonymity can’t be kept. I enjoy reading and learning from all your featured articles in themed blogs, and I’m fond of chatting with some LwL ghosts who have enlightened me with so much colorful knowledge and insights into humanities — how adventurous and magical one could have faceless ghost friends around the Global to “confide” and “care” for each other’s mind…
It’s the most courageous jump to leave the academic field and leap to the “Brave New World” of internet! I wish you a very successful new endeavor! If you happen to visit my town for your book tour, a lunch is on me.
Congrats on quitting the day job! I have been trying to figure out a way out of the box ever since I … er … started working a million years ago. 😀 Working stinks.
Hi Dr L,
congratulations to your courage and best of luck for the plunge into the scary world of social media.
I cannot help much there. I‘m on Facebook and Instagram and don’t want to add X or any other app, since it really is addictive, especially Instagram. Facebook seems to be used by older generations, there’s a lot more activity on Instagram. As others have pointed out, your main subject limerence has the innate problem that people who are interested will want to stay anonymous at all costs. It’s much too sensitive and risky for them to follow an account like that. People do check what you are following.
YouTube seems to be the better option for this subject, or regular podcasts. I have no idea about LinkedIn. But others have already given much more helpful advice, I guess!
Noone has mentioned Tiktok. It can be a good way to drive YouTube followers. A good strategy is to have a volume of content, train or feed it to AI, then AI will update your socials for you. AI can even make videos of you talking (provided you train it with some originals). The point being, the most important thing in building a following is CONSISTENCY, and automation can help with that.
I totally agree this is way more interesting than a normal job! Another thing is ‘influencer’ networking events. Collabs expose you to new audiences who wouldn’t have heard of you otherwise, and they hear of you from someone they already know.
As for monetization – noone has mentioned consultation. I’m sure there will be people who would benefit from a personal consultation for their LEs.
Also, don’t forget apps. Make an app, it’s super easy, and that way you’re permanently on people’s phones. I think everything else has been covered by others. Wishing you well Dr.
Dr L
I too am an older Gen Xer and social media isn’t my thing. I have a Facebook account because my wife made me one way back when it came out, but I rarely use it. I have an istagram mostly because of following other people I know elsewhere because I am an old timer gamer. Rarely use it either.
But I wanted to tell you that one day (the story of how I found LwL) I found a video on youtube in my suggestion feed “How to overcome Limerence”. I don’t know why it came in my suggestions but it did. I was like what is heck is limerence? I thereby googled “limerence”. Outside of the heading of the actual definition of limerence, I saw “Living with Limerence” in the results, clicked on it, and the rest is history.
Since then I found youtube to be more than just useful for music. There are a lot of channels dedicated to things of the psychological and neurological nature. Pysch2Go being one of my favorites. One video of which they touched on limerence without using the actual term.
Also as a late GenXer I am quite adapt at Discord, which is basically just old school 90’s chat rooms. One of which I met my now wife in. And getting married to someone you met in 1998 on the internet was uncommon. Both of our parents thought we were crazy. We lived 500 miles apart at the time. But we didn’t let that separate us. Despite limerence we will be celebrating 25 years together on the 22nd.
And I owe that celebration to you Dr L and all the people of this community that have purposely helped us through this in our marriage. And I am forever grateful to all that have helped me. Tell Mrs L to keep at it with her writing. She is a great writer and I would look forward to her writing as much as yours Dr L. Thank you for helping us poorly misguided limerents.
LO #4 is a PsyD in clinical psychology. She made a living as a life coach. Life coaches don’t require a license to practice that would be required if she was practicing as a clinical psychologist. All her sessions were all done virtually.
When I encountered her, she had a robust web presence. She did podcasts and YouTube videos. She also moved heavily into Facebook. As other platforms such as Instagram and Twitter gained prominence, she also moved somewhat into those. Since I only have a Facebook account, I don’t know how heavily she moved into them.
As far a strategy goes, one of the questions is what do you want your social media presence to do for you? LO #4 never shared much about her business apart from telling me that between relocating ~1000 miles away from he ex and resulting period of getting herself back together, her finances were nearly in ruin.
LO #4 had an agenda and her social media largely was more targeted to advancing her agenda while directing any who wanted more help to hire her. As a one-woman shop, there were only so many hours in a day and she had to balance growth against securing income. Since we said goodbye going on 9 years and I haven’t looked at her social media in almost 3 years, I have no idea what she’s doing now.
I think you have the potential go a long way but I don’t think you can do it alone. At some point, you’re going to need help. Do you have a source of capital to help you advance? If you have connections, leverage them.
Congratulations Dr L, you are going full time on your adventure with LivingwithLimerence! I can’t help you with the social media stuff, but I want to warn you about something. When my LO1 quit his day job to create art full time, our relationship escalated to EA level. (I carefully choose not to reveal the type of art that he creates because I don’t want to reveal his identity on LwL.). Anyway, I want to warn you that my LO1 suddenly had a lot of flexibility in his schedule and he put way too much focus on me, which I should have resisted, but didn’t. I am telling you this because I know you have a weakness and I want you to put your commitment to your wife at the front of your thoughts. You are transitioning and you will be just as vulnerable to limerence as the rest of us.
Best of luck with your new adventures!
PS, please continue to keep our real identities secret. I admire that you revealed yourself, but I wouldn’t want my identity revealed.
I’d engage most with YouTube, TikTok, and FB. Invest in some branding for short music and graphic.
Am so grateful for your Enhanced Deprogramming course I did 16 months ago. So extensive and layered, great interface with user. Links to that on social media.
Best wishes! Looking forward to getting Smitten (the book, not the experience again, just yet!)
Hi Dr L – congrats on the big decision!
In terms of advice I’d look to copy what Mark Manson has done. He has a long form podcast that goes on YouTube (and audio based podcast platforms) that has a mix of guests, audience Q&A and interaction on a set topic with his co-host. He then chops some of the more interesting parts up into shorts for TikTok, insta stories, YouTube shorts etc. He has a blog and newsletter too, and of course writes books.
You could do much of the same. Perhaps a podcast where you interview other relevant professionals on the broad topic of limerence or obsession, addiction perhaps. Or you could interview people who have been through it (perhaps anonymously). You could easily do the Q&A style bits and take themes like you do on the blog and deep dive them.
You could also have a Patreon that people could subscribe to where you help them on a more 1:1 basis get through a LE.
I hope to be part of making TwitterX die a painful death (never had an account and will never have an account with them), so may I suggest adding Substack, Mastodon and BlueSky to round out your social media scope?
You may also want to consider the Patreon route.
Best wishes to you and yours.
@Coffeehouse.
“Please remember: don’t feed the trolls.”
Somebody, who apparently prefers to be silent, posted this comment in “The Madness of Limerence” blog, October 12, 2024. I recognise it as a reference to something similar I said, (gentle & friendly advice to Mila on not oversharing her troubles lest she get bullied by strangers targeting the personal weaknesses she has revealed), although other people may have said it too. I did not invent the phrase “don’t feed the trolls”. It’s internet slang that’s been around for a long time. I heard someone else say it on a different forum many years ago.
It’s weird for me to encounter words or phrases or ideas I’ve used that have then filtered down into general conversation/group consciousness. I seem to have acquired some level of social influence at LwL. This is strange to me, because I’ve never sought influence. I have mixed feelings about being someone who has been influential. Influence can be used for both good and bad.
I don’t wish to moralise about limerence. However, I think there are two core truths that are very hard to deny. The first core truth is that “limerence” and “falling in love” are one and the same. (This is not my position. This is Helen Fisher’s position. I agree with Helen Fisher’s position).
The second core truth is that limerence can sometimes, for some people, turn unpleasant. The reason limerence can turn unpleasant is almost always because the feelings of longing are unrequited. (This is not my observation. This is Dorothy Tennov’s observation. I agree with Dorothy Tennov’s observation).
My motivation for being at LwL are twofold. (1) I’m here to solve my own problems. (2) I’m here to empathise occasionally, when the mood strikes me and when I have the time, with other posters, in a fairly haphazard fashion. Although my mischievous nature often prevents me from giving help/advice that is truly useful. I leave truly helpful advice to the experts such as Dr Bellamy.
Some words of encouragement to individual posters:
Mila – I don’t really think you’re patronising. You’ve been very brave in writing about your struggles. I’m sorry you’ve experienced so much angst. If I had daughters, you would probably be my favourite daughter. You wouldn’t be my favourite daughter because we are alike. You would be my favourite daughter because we are different. 🙂
Bewitched – you’ll be relieved to hear I have no further questions for you. Thank you for being such an adorable witness in the witness stand. 😁
Marcia – you’re not that bratty. Sorry for throwing you under the bus when I made that comment. (I would have thrown Frederico under the bus, but Frederico wasn’t available). Loyal friend to the end, girl, you know I think the world of you. 🙂
Serial Limerent – you’re a big girl. You can answer your own questions about the ethical complexities of limerence. If you’re as serial as you claim, I doubt you need a tutor.
Trifles – we haven’t really bonded because I can’t get a firm read on your personality. I understand you’re an INTP. The “T” in your personality is probably stopping us from connecting.
Snow – a troll is “a person who makes a deliberately offensive or provocative online post”. I was worried about Mila receiving hurtful feedback (from members of the general public) because she has been so open about her struggles, and not all readers are going to be sympathetic. I was feeling protective toward Mila.
Limerent Emeritus – you are right that limerence can make people very unhappy. Don’t give me a hard time about anything ever. I am an intensely kind man who seldom flaunts his strength in public. However, when I choose to, I can wipe the floor intellectually with anyone – including you. I am not your enemy. I think we share many of the same conclusions about limerence. We’ve just use different methods of reasoning to reach the same conclusions. Curmudgeon in Residence my foot. More like Big Sweetie in Residence. By the way, I love your eyebrows – are they real? 🙂
Jaideux – another favourite daughter.
LIm-a-rant, Speedwagon, Lost in Space – you boys are all a bit lost. It’s sweet. But it’s also disturbing. I’m sure you are the ones who feel the most conflicted…
Frederico – a friend who will always be honoured, even in absentia. 🙏
Adam – you’re actually rather smart and perceptive, aren’t you? I am impressed by your intelligence. Stop pretending to be a hick. 🙂
MJ – I am impressed by your humility and by your willingness not to hold grudges against people who have perhaps a little unfairly given you a hard time in the past. Your ability to forgive is really quite something. 😜
“Don’t give me a hard time about anything ever. I am an intensely kind man who seldom flaunts his strength in public. However, when I choose to, I can wipe the floor intellectually with anyone – including you. I am not your enemy.”
That sounds like a threat!
Your new nickname is “Sammy, The Hulk.” 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFQkQ1-D2g4#ddg-play
As for wiping the floor with me, I think it would be an interesting battle of wits but it would likely get us both tossed off LwL. So, we’ll have to table that. I used to collect heads for sport. I can teach Advanced Gaslighting among other things. I was trained in it.
Probably wouldn’t get you tossed off, but it would be a bit unseemly.
Better to share wisdom (or fun) than indulge in vanity jousting.
DrL:
Please allow me to be proud/vain here — my intuition was proven correct again 2 hours ago, I sensed/knew you’d be the next poster… ☺️
Snow,
Stevie Wonder would have seen that coming.
I know better but sometimes when one of those slow floaters comes across the plate, even though the take sign is on, I can’t help but swing for the left field bleachers. [It’s baseball playoff time in the US]
I blame my maternal grandfather. He had an irreverent streak a mile wide.
@LE,
I know little about baseball rules, but to me, swing left or right field when it feels right or necessary… 💪 🙌 👏
Hi Sammy,
Re me being listed among those you feel are ‘a bit lost’ or ‘conflicted’, yeah I accept those labels in my own case.
Most people here wander in a bit lost and, like me, just want a space to process it and chat about it. I was very open about those facts from the start.
I am less lost than I was then – I am sitting on 4 months now of taking action to feel gradually less limerent, with a better intellectual understanding of limerence, empathy from others here along with some needed reality checks, and a chance to occasionally find light in it all through humour. This is a nice place to be. Lost and conflicted yes, but finding my way. I hope this place has achieved some similar things for you and others.
Hi Sammy,
aww, it’s so nice that you felt protective and I even get the favorite daughter- prize!
I don’t think I‘m patronizing at all, which is why I wasn‘t bothered by you implying it at all (maybe this is arrogant of me though, who knows or cares).
I was oversharing a bit indeed, and I stopped that now. Somehow I suddenly don’t feel safe posting personal stuff here anymore (not your fault, Snow, or anybody‘s really). I did that only because I had no one in real life to talk about that agonizing stuff. It doesn’t agonize me that much anymore, and even if it would, I’m not sure I would share it here.
Actually I could change my nickname and pretend to be somebody else! but everyone would immediately recognize me by my faulty English, I‘m afraid.
Sammy
I don’t know what to say. Thank you. I like this community but I found when traffic here is light I tend to need to vent? elsewhere which usually ends up me getting shamed. So I tend to be self depreciating. But thank you for the kind words. I kind of wondered where my place was on your chessboard. I guess I’m more than a pawn. Personally always liked the knight when I taught our boys chess.
Though we might have been at odds if threw frederico under the bus. :-/
@Sammy,
Thank you for the compliment. I appreciate your support and wisdom. I have learned a lot from your posts. You have a very down-to-earth outlook on this limerence thing. I am grateful for your presence and friendship here.
As for our many other Friends here, I believe we’ve all come to this place for a good reason. If anyone hasn’t agreed with my style or opinions, that is on them. I won’t get the help I need if I’m not honest about my LE and all that befuddles me about it. I share what has happened because I feel like there has to be a purpose for it. What people share with me, perhaps may have worked well for them, but all our LE situations are unique, varied and complex. I don’t think there will ever be a one size fits all solution. We share what we have done, learn from it and try to do better.
The Good Lord knows we are screw-ups. Even on our absolute best days. I choose to forgive because holding grudges with my fellow Brethren here will afford me nothing in the long run. I actually still struggle with this though in real life, so the Lwl platform really allows me to see people from their angle. Even though we will probably never actually meet in person, all I can do is give my best back in return.
Hi MJ,
I agree with a large part of what you said – that if we don’t like the way a particular poster communicates, a large part of that is on us and we can just choose not to engage with them.
But in my view, it should never turn to personal attacks. Attack my actions or my argument with compelling reasons, and I’ll listen. I even want to listen and debate someone if they do that. But don’t attack me as a person/on my character. A lot of people on here are vulnerable and have wandered in here lost and confused. In that context, personal attacks don’t feel right.
For clarity, this is a comment about the more general etiquette on here, not about you! You are one of the kindest, most humble and honest posters in this community and I have always enjoyed a chat with you ever since I appeared.
Hope your ex’s ex enjoyed watching the Combine Harvester video!
Thanks @LaR,
I’m really glad you decided to come out of the shadows after so long and post. You’ve had some good, down-to-earth insight too on matters here, and I find myself reading your posts quite often. It looks like you have been very helpful to other posters here thus far.
I appreciate your kind compliments and hoping to continue to connect moving forward..
Btw, Ex never got back to me about the video yet. Which means I probably rattled her chain.. I’m good for that..
🤣🤣🤣
Lots of great ideas in this comment thread – many thanks all.
Youtube seems like a winner. Substack is a good thought, but I already have a newsletter – even though it’s a bit neglected. I should re-energise that now I have more time for writing.
AI tools for repurposing old blog posts into social posts is another interesting idea. A quick play with ChatGPT suggests it won’t do that (it treats it as plagiarism). Anyone recommend an alternative tool that I can train?
I like the idea of taking the old blog posts, snipping out some gems and using them as tweets or threads. I had planned to do it manually, but it does seem like an ideal use-case for AI…
Totally off-topic but I felt like sharing a recent experience and this is the only coffeehouse with open comments…
Anyway, I spent last week in complete NC with LO, because she was on vacation with her SO and kids in another country. It was the first time in a long long time that I’ve been completely out of contact with her for a full week. And it was interesting – I felt pretty good all week, I felt relaxed and content and productive. I thought about her a bit every day and spent a little time wondering about how her trip was going and hoping she was having a nice time, but I didn’t feel any distress or anxiety about being out of contact with her. If anything, it felt kind of nice to know with complete certainty that we wouldn’t be talking for a week and I could just put her out of my mind for a bit. It made me think that I’ll actually be quite alright when she does eventually leave our workplace and our contact likely dwindles, and that perhaps I’m not quite so emotionally dependent on her as I think I am. Of course, this brief period of NC was different because it was expected, and because we’d been on good terms and talking a lot right up until her trip, and I had every reason to expect that we’d be on good terms again when she returned, but it was still a nice little reminder that I was ok before I met her and I’ll be ok someday if she’s not part of my life anymore.
But a weird little thing happened as well – about halfway through the week I had a very vivid dream about LO3 (the LO before my current LO) that involved us cuddling up on a couch watching a movie and getting a little frisky with our hands (nothing like that every happened between us in real life), and it was just a really vivid dream and I’ve been having trouble getting it out of my head ever since then, and I’ve also found myself really fighting urges to contact LO3 since the dream. It would be really easy to just text her to say what’s up and chat for awhile, I know she’d be happy to hear from me and we’d have a nice chat, but I’ve been resisting that temptation and plan to keep doing so – one thing I can say is that I explicitly promised my SO never to initiate contact with LO3 again and I’ve stuck to that (I’m allowed to reply to her if she contacts me, but I can’t initiate contact). But it was interesting that after like 5 days with LO4 out of contact I was suddenly lusting after LO3 again when I’d hardly thought about her for a long time.
And now LO4 is back and we spent some time on the phone today catching up and it was nice and she wants to talk again tomorrow so we probably will, and we’re pretty much right back to our routine again, but maybe the experience I had last week will help me to be a little less anxious about her ups and downs and more accepting of times when we have more space between us, and maybe not so desperate to preserve our relationship at all costs when the time does come for her to leave.
Hi LIS, happy to hear that the break from LO was positive for you. Sorry about LO3, vivid dreams can really throw us off our game for a few days. Glad you didn’t contact her and also glad things are back to normal and steady upon LO4s return. I am sort of surprised that after all this time having this intimate and reciprocal of emotional relationship with LO that the LE hasn’t faded and you have not tried a bit of LO. I always attribute the intensity of my LE to the lack of reciprocation but that’s not your case. Yet you still seem to really desire LO. Do you think it’s because you don’t engage in anything physical and the physical desire for her still burns and keeps the emotional connection alive?
I can relate to having LO away and feeling good. My LO took a leave this past year of 3 weeks and it was the best 3 weeks I have had in the last 2.5 years of my LE. No anxiety coming into the office, relaxed, less foggy brain, and dare I say moments of true contentment. It was really positive for me and gave me an insight into what life could be like if LO was not in it.
But reality is such that LO returned and she is in it and I am entering a new chapter that is going to be challenging. I had a person leave my business so LO and I are going to need to work closer together than ever. I don’t have many people buffers between her and I anymore at the office. She told me the other day as we were discussing her role how much she appreciates and respects me which makes me feel good and annoyed all at the same time because I want her to follow up those words with…and I’m in love with you too.
It’s going to be tough sledding for a bit as I figure out my new routine with her. At this point it just feels like I will never get her out of my life, it would take a life event to happen to her, to make her move away. But I’ve become so jaded in my LE now that I pretty much expect if the universe can screw me it will.
BTW…to be on topic, YouTube seems like a good platform for LwL content.
“I want her to follow up those words with…and I’m in love with you too.”
@Speed,
I can totally identify with this feeling. Sorry to hear your situation probably isn’t going to improve. Perhaps you should consider a new hire to replace the one you lost?
Probably cheaper to not do that but mentally I hope you can hold it down. Sounds like the roller coaster is going to take you on a fast one soon.
Hey Speedwagon! You’re definitely in for a challenging time. I’m guessing there’s a part of you that feels happy about working more closely with your LO and a part of you that dreads it – I know I’d be feeling both of those things in your shoes. And the feeling of wanting her to tell you she loves you, not just that she respects and appreciates you – I understand that feeling 100% too. But I have faith you’ll figure it out and manage to cope as you’ve been doing admirably for a couple of years now – hopefully you can keep maintaining the professional distance you’ve been maintaining and not fall back into overly personal sharing even when you’re around her a lot more.
For me and my LO, yeah, it’s been almost 2 years now since disclosure, and the emotional connection hasn’t faded at all and I definitely haven’t grown tired of her in the slightest. I get tired of the hot/cold cycles and the anxiety about when the next cold cycle might be coming, but I never actually get tired of my interactions with her. I can honestly say there’s never been a time in 2 years that I didn’t want to talk with her or actively wished for a break from her, and I really feel that I’d happily talk with her every day of my life if it was possible. And actually if I look back over the past couple of years, we have a lot more stability in our relationship now than in the past. The highs and lows are less intense, the cold cycles are a lot shorter and less frequent, and we do spend a lot more time in contact than we used to – a year ago we maybe talked on the phone once a week, now it’s almost daily most weeks. But we still hardly ever spend time together in person, especially alone. It almost feels like we’re just a couple in a permanent long-distance relationship. Is it even still limerence anymore really? Or is it just 2 people in some sort of truncated version of a long term relationship?
I really do think that we’ve maintained such a strong emotional bond for two years because we’re just really compatible and get along really well and we like each other a lot and care about each other and respect each other a lot. I truly believe that if we’d met when we were both single, we’d have ended up married and would have a pretty happy life and successful partnership together – not perfect by any means, but I do think we’d be good together. But of course we’re not single and we’re still both horrified by the thought of ever breaking up our relationships and families, so it seems like we’re just likely to continue the way we have been for a long time to come.
I feel sorry for your wife.
Maria, I think this brings up the question: what do you do when you have tried (or considered trying) everything but have decided you don’t want your mutual LE to end? Or even if you claim you want it to end, your actions speak another language? (Actions matter, not words!) Are you happy continuing a clandestine EA? Should you disclose to your SO and let them decide if they are willing participants in this? And thus bring the LE into the open.
If you decide you are happy carrying on a clandestine EA, how long do you think it is sustainable? Will this result in you eventually resenting someone? Someone resenting you? Having a weak moment or a big fight with SO and blurting it out? These are tough questions I know and I’m not one to moralize, but I think one should acknowledge that ‘doing nothing’ is also a decision. And whatever we decide we need try to live with.
I’m glad Maria spoke up, Lost in Space, but I don’t agree with her. I can’t decide how I would feel about your EA if I were your wife.
If you were having sexual relations with your LO, that would be a deal breaker, but you’re not.
If your wife loses anything due to your EA, like if you gave her less attention or if you were spending family resources on your EA, that might be a deal breaker, but I don’t think this applies to your situation either.
If you were putting your reputation in danger, that would be a problem, but I don’t think you are.
My husband hasn’t ever taken interest in another woman (not that I know of) so I don’t know how I would feel if I were in your wife’s position, but I suspect It wouldn’t be so bad.
I’m curious if you would tolerate a role reversal. If your wife was having a non-physical EA and you weren’t, would you tolerate it?
Last night, we took the kids to a Halloween party at my mom’s care center. A beautiful woman who was dressed as a witch recognized my husband and began talking to him. She clearly liked him and remembered him. I didn’t recognize her and so I was trying to figure out where we knew her. It got a little awkward when my husband wanted to clearly show that I am his wife. It’s as if he wanted everyone to know that nothing fishy was going on between him and the other woman. I didn’t think anything fishy had been going on, I just couldn’t figure out how he knew this woman and I didn’t. I also don’t care if my husband has conversations with beautiful women in my absence. If it gives him a moment of pleasure to appropriately connect with other people, I’m all for it.
Anyway, you know your wife better than I do.
Btw, I’ve had men respond similarly when they talk to me in front of their wife. It’s like they think talking to me is cheating. It’s so weird. I chatted with a man while running at a race. At the next race, I saw him with his wife so I introduced myself. He acted awkward as if we had done something wrong when we ran together. We didn’t do anything wrong. It was weird when he was awkward about me talking to him and his wife. I don’t understand it.
I shared this story in another thread that might get missed but I think it is somewhat on the subject being discussed. The difference with me is I disclosed my limerence to my wife but not LO.
Tuesday I had my appointment with the orthopedic doctor (right now my arm is out of my sling and I have three weeks of physical therapy to try before he wants to resort to surgery). My wife and I were driving home. I was listening to music from youtube, My wife got reminded of a song she wanted me to listen to. After that she went back to my home page and played a random mix that youtube made for me.
The second song that played was “Don’t Expect Me To Be Your Friend”, In which the singer laments about how this woman wants him to stick around but he can’t because he loves her too much to just be her friend.
As I was singing (I’ve known this song long before limerence) she said something to me but I didn’t hear her. We were pulling into the store and she says “sorry I was being snarky” I said “I didn’t hear what you said”. To which she replies “I said ‘oh isn’t this just the perfect song for you'”. We were in the store shopping before it dawned on me what she was insinuating. I am going on 2 1/2 years of NC. Sometimes the pain doesn’t go away. Sometimes the suspicion that someone is on your mind that shouldn’t be never goes away. Every song you listen to can be suspect. It’s not a bed you want to lie in, believe me, I know. I made the damn bed myself.
I think the last verse is the one that killed it, as I reported to my wife LO’s new relationship with a man my age that my boss told me about. I didn’t go seeking that information out but I did repeat it.
Don’t Expect Me To Be Your Friend — Lobo
https://youtu.be/Zir11p4oCFI?si=o4k93RaS1MoXSLbl
I stopped sending flowers to your apartment
You said you aren’t at home much anymore
I stopped dropping by without an appointment
‘Cause I’d hear laughter coming through your door
Sometimes, late at night, you’ll still call me
Just before you close your eyes to sleep
You make me vow to try and stop by sometime
But baby, that’s a promise I can’t keep
I love you too much to ever start liking you
So, let’s just let the story kinda end
I love you too much to ever start liking you
So, don’t expect me to be your friend
I don’t walk down through the village or other places
That we used to go to all the time
I’m trying to erase you from my memory
‘Cause thinking of you jumbles up my mind
I love you too much to ever start liking you
So, let’s just let the story kinda end
I love you too much to ever start liking you
So, don’t expect me to be your friend
You always act so happy when I see you
You smile that way, you take my hand, and then
Introduce me to your latest lover
That’s when I feel the walls start crashing in
I love you too much to ever start liking you
So, let’s just let the story kinda end
I love you too much to ever start liking you
So, don’t expect me to be your friend
„ I also don’t care if my husband has conversations with beautiful women in my absence. If it gives him a moment of pleasure to appropriately connect with other people, I’m all for it“
Lovisa, I think that’s something different from having a full-grown EA, sharing your most intimate stuff, problems, etc daily and for years with someone your wife doesn’t even know.
I‘m not sure how I would react, but I guess I would feel that I don‘t know anymore what kind of person my husband is and if I have ever known him really.
This is no attack against Lost in Space, he knows that that’s the reality and that I’m very sympathetic.
I’ve heard that what your spouse doesn’t mind you doing is what they are doing or want to get away with. Emotional affairs are destructive to a marriage as is disclosing romantic feelings to the opposite sex. Please don’t enable people to encourage in this.
I wanted to add that I didn’t share that to demonize my wife. I fawned over another woman for 2 damn years. She has plenty of reason to wonder where my head is. I didn’t take offense at the comment and I certainty didn’t attack her about it. As I said I made the bed in which I lie.
As a brother at church told me; you can be repentant but after that everything else is up to the ones you hurt. You can’t force forgiveness.
Forgiveness is an interesting concept.
Our church had a sermon on it a few months back.
One of the questions was if there can be forgiveness without repentance? In that case, does forgiveness manifest itself as indifference by the injured party?
Another question was what does the penitent seek to gain from forgiveness? Is the penitent seeking to restore the relationship or gain peace and move on? I don’t see myself ever re-engaging LO #2. I’d like to remember her fondly. After a lot of time and a lot of work, honestly, I’m pretty indifferent.
Once I accepted that not everybody that comes into your life is meant to stay there and some people have more effect than others, things got easier.
However, that all happened in hindsight.
I honestly don’t have an answer to that question. I know I want peace in the home again, but I cannot force anyone to do so. And even if my family has truly forgiven me, I doubt that will ever forget.
The brother told me, when I expressed my disbelief that I have God’s grace after what I have done. I told him I was trying to accept God’s grace but how can I when I’ve hurt others through my actions? I told him that this sin of mine is what brought me to this church. And told him it was quite by chance that I did find this church. He said that was the Holy Spirit guiding me. If the Holy Spirit guided you here than obviously God wants to give his grace to you despite knowing what you have done.
Then he asked me if I have forgiven myself? Have those you hurt forgiven you? I told him for the most part those that were hurt are at least still in my life. But I told him I don’t think I have forgiven myself. He said well if those you hurt have forgiven you and God has forgiven you, then give yourself permission to forgive yourself. And then you will be able to accept God’s grace and the Holy Spirit in you.
I haven’t yet had the courage to talk to the pastor or any of the brothers what exactly my sin is yet. I vaguely told the pastor (one on one) that what I did greatly affected my marriage and my relationship with our sons. For the sake of a long explanation when and if I ever do it will be an EA that I tell him I carried on.
@ Lovisa
Btw, I’ve had men respond similarly when they talk to me in front of their wife. It’s like they think talking to me is cheating. It’s so weird. I chatted with a man while running at a race. At the next race, I saw him with his wife so I introduced myself. He acted awkward as if we had done something wrong when we ran together. We didn’t do anything wrong. It was weird when he was awkward about me talking to him and his wife. I don’t understand it.
It’s nothing to do with you, but maybe how the guy feels at the time.
Physical activity, especially cardio/running, brings on the endorphins.
So whilst everything above surface is innocent, he feels good around you (maybe his wife didn’t run?).
Also, runners tend to get stripped down and sweaty after their laps, at least in my neck of the woods (though I’m surely in a warmer clime than you).
Reminds me of an exchange with my LO, at a work function.
She chose an outfit that revealed a LOT of skin, far more than anyone else in the entire establishment.
MPDG: “would it be a problem if you gave me a lift home?”
Normally, driving a co-worker home is the charitable thing to do, if it’s not too out of the way. Done it many a time.
Sharing a night ride for the better part of an hour with a half-naked hottie, is another way of phrasing this situation, though..
ghostzoned: “uh, yeah, it might be problematic..”
I don’t explain why (the conversation we had immediately prior, I’d mentioned my SO).
A few thoughts that I’m jotting down quickly at the end of the day, sorry if this isn’t too well organized or well thought out but I did want to write back to everyone who wrote to me…
– I feel sorry for my wife too. Oftentimes I look at her and think about how much I love her and what a good person she is and how loyal she’s always been to me, and I just feel really sad. And then I just keep doing what I’m doing.
– Partly I justify this to myself by being really good to my wife. When I feel guilty because I was talking to LO right before coming home from work, I deal with the guilt by doing extra chores around the house and giving SO back rubs and foot rubs and being really attentive and affectionate. And I don’t feel that it’s me playing a game or trying to fool her, I really just feel lots of love and affection for her and want to do things to make her feel loved and supportive. Even though I’m doing something unethical behind her back. I know it probably doesn’t make sense to anyone else, but somehow it does to me.
– It’s amazing how easily I can tell myself that none of this is really so bad, that I’m not hurting anyone and no one is every going to get hurt as long as I don’t cross certain lines. I can tell myself that having an EA isn’t harmful at all as long as it stays a secret forever, that the EA isn’t harming anyone, it’s only discover that would be harmful. And I just can’t seem to make myself believe that discovery is a real possibility – logically I know of course that discovery is certainly possible and maybe even probably the longer this goes on, but somehow I just can’t make myself believe it could actually happen.
– It’s also easy to tell myself that since LO is probably leaving our workplace in a couple months, I might as well just enjoy as much time with her as possible now, because it’s going to come to an end soon anyways. Unless of course it doesn’t, because she might stay, or she might leave but we’ll still maintain the relationship anyways. Which honestly is probably what will happen. 95% of our relationship is by phone anyways, why would that change just because she leaves the job?
– I know with certainty I would not feel ok about my wife having this kind of relationship with another man. But if she ever did, I’d definitely want her to keep it a secret and never tell me. I mean, it really wouldn’t affect me if she’s talking to someone else while I’m at work or if she’s thinking about someone else sometimes as long as I don’t know about it. But me knowing about it would drive me crazy and make me feel terrible.
– I definitely don’t expect anyone else to condone my behavior or encourage it or feel sympathetic to me. I know how unethical my behavior is. I guess I’m just kind of presenting my life as a case study about how someone who’s spent their whole life trying to behave decently and ethically can wake up one day and find themselves 2 years into an emotional affair and not really be able to imagine any way out (or maybe just not want to imagine any way out). And I guess I’m also still trying to at least engage in some harm reduction when I get tempted to cross more lines and make things even worse. I know I could definitely mess things up a lot more than they already are.
Lost in Space,
„ I can tell myself that having an EA isn’t harmful at all as long as it stays a secret forever, that the EA isn’t harming anyone, it’s only discover that would be harmful.“
„But if she ever did, I’d definitely want her to keep it a secret and never tell me. I mean, it really wouldn’t affect me if she’s talking to someone else while I’m at work or if she’s thinking about someone else sometimes as long as I don’t know about it.“
These two statements correlate, and I ponder about it. I always thought I was a very honest and moral person, but in my LEs I experienced that my gut feelings didn’t always go the moral way. And I felt a visceral pain and inability to just kill any immoral feelings. I was left with the question if common morals are not always congruent with reality, or if I‘m simply a bad person.
Now this question of, if there’s no harm done as long as the other person doesn’t know about it, is a crucial one.
Common morals say, harm is done anyway, and SO has a right to know what kind of husband she‘s got, the truth about her marriage etc.
Someone else said here somewhere, one is always able to tolerate in his SO the kind of behavior that he is doing to them or thinking of doing to them, simply to excuse oneself – or because one knows the Why of it and knows that it’s still possible to love SO unmitigatedly. But isn’t it arrogant to decide alone what is ok in a relationship and what isn’t, shouldn’t both be able to decide about it? Old questions, and easy to answer in a morally correct way, but there is an amount of life stories going the other way, and the question is if they are all simply weak and egotistical people.
Maybe your wife wouldn’t want to know it too, maybe she already knows and closes her eyes or doesn’t mind, maybe she would be appalled at your audacity to decide for her that it’s ok as long as she doesn’t know it.
I think I wish for you that your LO will leave, that you part in a good way and that’s it, that you can finally live as one person in one life.
Due to this conversation here, Thursday night I asked my wife “What first tipped you off?” (For those that don’t know about 2 months after LO quit the job my wife came to me with concerns of a PA or EA with LO.) She said “The day you came home telling me you stopped at her favorite coffee shop and got her favorite drink for her.” I honestly don’t remember telling her that. And I am sure I told her that quite happily. We say more with our tone and body language more than our actual words. A quiet spouse doesn’t always mean an ignorant spouse. I have no idea how long my wife sat on this fear of infidelity before she spoke up.
@Adam,
That’s interesting, it was similar with my SO. After disclosure, he revealed how he’d always had suspicion during my LE, even though I was careful not to mention LO.
What were the signs he saw? I was “glowing”. And a bit more inattentive than usual. That’s it! I was shocked. I would never have thought I was ‘leaking’ from the LE.
Maybe he’s more perceptive than most partners, but I think if you are close with your SO, they will sense that something is off. And that uneasy feeling is the worst thing in the world.
Maria
Yeah it is possibly interesting to understand our missteps in hindsight about our limerence. All the things our spouses noticed but kept silent about for their own reasons. Yet we were stupidly oblivious to in the midst of limerence. Like when I’m playing a video game and I keep doing it wrong and dying and screaming at the game and she’s like “you’re too drunk come to bed!” 🙂
On another note; I’ve taken to calling her “darling” rather than Momma. Is “darling” a nice pet name for you ladies? Momma asked me one time “are you Conway Twitty now?” and I didn’t get the reference. Haha
One day LiS, perhaps in a year, 2 years, 5, 10, maybe even 20 years, you’ll be all alone. Your kids will be grown, maybe hate you for what you did to their Mother. Or maybe somehow you’ll still have their affection and it will look like a Norman Rockwell moment.
You might have your career and that might be going great or maybe it won’t be. Maybe you’ll be taking care of sick, dying Parents or maybe they’ll just die peacefully and you won’t have to worry about any of it. Maybe just maybe if you are divorced, your Ex will still talk to you and remind you, every time just how wonderful she really was.
Right now I’m in my car, at a gas station, along a highway, close to my work, thinking once again about the shitty Husband I was and how I so rightly deserve every heartbreak that comes my way. It’s called retribution and it’s a way of life for me.
I wasn’t limerent back in the day. I was a serial cheating, fake-ass fraud. Limerence like the way it hit me, would have killed my marriage like a mass murder..
Lying to my Wife, telling myself I really loved her but just wasn’t good enough at it. Justifying my pathetic ways because she was too tired, or wasn’t in the mood. When it was probably because I was just irritated, because I’m selfish and I want what I want because it makes ME feel good.
My Wife simply wasn’t good enough. Otherwise why would I be doing what I do?
I know you tire of my rants, but this is my reality now. Like Maria, I do feel sorry for your Wife. I also know how limerence feels so I can’t berate you for that either. For years, my Dentist told me I should have my Wisdom teeth pulled because they will give me nothing but trouble down the road. Do you think I ever listened? I’ll let you decide.
Just remember the Good days now LiS, because someday, that may be all you have left.
I’m Not The Only One — Sam Smith
https://youtu.be/LytU-zTCh8Y?si=FrBy9Sk-ANX_vnTs
Good luck for your event today, Dr. L!!
Enjoy it, Dr. L!
I wish I could see/hear a recording of it.
Thanks, Mila. It went well. Interesting discussion about ADHD and love and limerence, and then I met and chatted with some lovely people.
Strange being “out” as myself in public, but an enjoyable and successful event.
Unfortunately, there was no recording (or even pictures, as far as I know). You really had to be there!
Wow, good to hear that it went well! For such events it’s anyway better to be there in person.
I would have loved to just shake your hand and support you, I hope there were others doing that, and I hope you feel that it was a success!
job prescription
Evie Shockley
will poetry change the world? no one asks
this about football, the thrill of watching or
playing. we get that nurses & doctors are
healers. no question that rabbis, priests, &
imams guide individuals & groups through
spiritual thickets. we don’t tell cooks to put
down their wooden spoons & go make a real
difference instead of a real soufflé. teachers
are honored for the learning they impart. so
let poets keep on exciting passion in them-
selves & others. don’t discourage us from our
efforts to diagnose the human heart or create
trail markers for those coming behind us on
this journey. trust me when i say that poetry
heals, guides, feeds, & enlivens. poetry may
not change the world, but might change you
********
Poetry does change one if one lets his and her imagination, joyful or painful, flip its wings with words; the process itself lifts…
We Used Our Words We Used What Words We Had
Franny Choi
we used our words we used what words we had
to weld, what words we had we wielded, kneeled,
we knelt. & wept we wrung the wet the sweat
we wracked our lips we rang for words to ward
off sleep to warn to want ourselves. to want
the earth we mouthed it wound our vowels until
it fit, in fits the earth we mounted roused
& rocked we harped we yawned & tried to yawp
& tried to fix, affixed, we facted, felt.
we fattened fanfared anthemed hammered, felt
the words’ worth stagnate, snap in half in heat
the wane the melt what words we’d hoarded halved
& holey, porous. meanwhile tide still tide.
& we: still washed for sounds to mark. & marked.
********
“We: still washed for sounds to mark. & marked.”
The Ruby
I picked up a rare pebble quietly washed ashore
I polished the shiny gem whispered between my agile finger tips
I tossed the glinting marble high and low, in Sunrise and Sunset
I dashed off the spinning ruby back to the echoless sea
I am left with a tingling pond of glimmering alphabets
pulsating in the curved lines of the longing, sighing palms
🐦🔥
10/17/24
👏👏👏
‘Glimmering alphabets’ – what are you trying to get at here?
@LaR
If one arranges alphabets in certain ways, they would glimmer, wouldn’t they?
In fact, each time if you see my own lines, that means alphabets wanted to escape from my depressed body and mood…. When I was joyful, the alphabets lazily, sleep cozily inside me…. But my tickling jokes might dash out…
Needless to say that 👽 is still vaguely “shimmering in the curved lines of the longing, sighing palms” …
Yep, I got you. Alphabets in certain patterns can indeed glimmer 🌟 ‘glimmering alphabet sequences’?
I hope 👽 isn’t playing on your mind too much. If yes, follow your advice to me – sit with it, watch it in and out and don’t fight it – speak to your deities 🤗
I tried to reply to your long message but LWL did its ‘delete draft’ trick again. No harm or jealously meant with my ‘muse’ points. I’ll explain it properly soon but thank you for highlighting an area where I can be a bit more sensitive in my future comms here.
And definitely no mini LO replicas! Can you imagine the confused MBTI profiles if there were?!
@LaR
I do sit calmly, (occasionally annoyedly) with my mind and emotions for 👽 (mostly blank nowadays, besides some pupped up memories), and I often get depressed with my daily pepper/salt stuff. Then if depressed enough, my notorious purple prose would begin to flow (usually inspired by another poem of the morning)… I cannot and will not kill my own Muse who was waken up by xLO/MFF/E.T.
Since I also lost a quite few composed messages and got very upset, nowadays I try to draft longer posts in my “Note”, then copy and paste to LwL.
Glad to hear there was/is no LO runny nose munchkins running around somewhere after all those Muse-seeding…. It is said (forget where), “a half of European royal families came from handsome/gorgeous “bastards” ; how do you know you are not one of their descendants ?? 😉
Hope you can have memorable dreams….
@LaR
When I am inactive, Aphrodite 💜 tends to rule in my world; when I have to act, Athena 🧚♂️ just pops out from god knows where…
Sometimes, I wished my Athena got drunk or sedated by her brothers/sisters or uncles/aunts…. My T and F fought all the time, in the end F ALWAYS won! And my P was just scarily accurate, and I will not brag here with facts that even shocked myself…
Dead Reckoning
Hyejung Kook
to estimate one’s position
without instruments
or celestial observations
calculating direction and distance
traveled from the last known fix
while accounting for tides, currents, grief
drift numbness
sudden storms of pain
unexpected joy
to reckon is to believe
something true
to reckon with the dead
is to believe I can know them
an airy thinness
gleaming
despite
the distance
traveled
I’d like to know how far
I’ve gone
how much farther there is
to go how absence
unfathomable
becomes
something I can carry
*****
When and “how absence of unfathomable becomes something I can carry”❓❓
Ghosts
Ella Wheeler Wilcox
There are ghosts in the room.
As I sit here alone, from the dark corners there
They come out of the gloom,
And they stand at my side and they lean on my chair
There’s a ghost of a Hope
That lighted my days with a fanciful glow,
In her hand is the rope
That strangled her life out. Hope was slain long ago.
But her ghost comes to-night
With its skeleton face and expressionless eyes,
And it stands in the light,
And mocks me, and jeers me with sobs and with sighs.
There’s the ghost of a Joy,
A frail, fragile thing, and I prized it too much,
And the hands that destroy
Clasped its close, and it died at the withering touch.
There’s the ghost of a Love,
Born with joy, reared with hope, died in pain and unrest,
But he towers above
All the others—this ghost; yet a ghost at the best,
I am weary, and fain
Would forget all these dead: but the gibbering host
Make my struggle in vain—
In each shadowy corner there lurketh a ghost.
*******
Wish ghosts of human emotions to disappear is a dream
Deny or kill them heart-wrenching, cruel, foolish
Gently and serenely peek them over the itchy shoulders,
Spinning, pulling, pushing in our hidden backspin
Adding surfing, ebbing, dozing, whispering hues in each vital pulsating
🐦🔥
Wish phantoms of human emotions to disappear is a dream
Deny or kill them heart-wrenching, cruel, foolish
Gently and serenely peek them over the itchy shoulders,
Spinning, pulling, pushing in our hidden backspin
Adding surfing, ebbing, dozing, whispering hues in every vital pulsating
🐦🔥
Wish phantoms of human emotions to disappear is a dream
Deny or kill them heart-wrenching, cruel, foolish
Gently and serenely peek them over our itchy shadows,
Spinning, pulling, pushing in the backbones
Adding surfing, ebbing, dozing, whispering, caressing hues
in our every vital pulsating
🐦🔥
Best of luck Dr Tom with your new approaches
You tube would be great too I’ve been in a L E for 7 months
I have never before experienced anything like it
I have been married and had a long term relationship and some lovers on the way, been in love had couple crushes but by heaven this was like being hit by a train it happened in an instant too 🙀 needless to say utterly incompatible unavailable LO
I’m completely NC now for two months I’m getting thru two steps forward one back good days bad days grief and tears
Your wisdom your web site and all the stories from the commenters have been such a good support for me 🙏
Thank you and blessings to all fellow limerents whatever stage you are at !
Tomorrow will be 25 years together. Oct 22, 1999 we got married in a court house with (at that time) a co-worker and her boyfriend witnessing it on our marriage licence. Our boys are 21, and living on his own and 18 still at home. We also have a spoiled a$$ cat that thinks she can do whatever she wants to. (She can. And she knows it.)
Congratulations!
When our daughter moved out, she took her two entitled bastard children, a tux and a tabby with her. We got another cat. I named her Circe after the sorceress in the Odyssey. She loves my wife. I put a heating pad on a pillow on the guest bed in my office when I’m on the computer.
Today, Circe whined at me because I hadn’t turned it on prior to her arrival.
@Adam,
Congratulations! 🎈 👏👏
Take Momma out for a fabulous dinner with champagne, a dozen roses, a big imperishable gift of her favorite!
Congratulations! And it’s so easy to spoil those kittehs. 🙂
For all who ask themselves if it‘s possible to stay friends with an Ex-LO:
I‘m in the train back from visiting my LO2 with his newborn baby and his SO, and it was such a happy and loving visit.
They are a lovely couple and family, and I know LO2 counts me to his closest friends (he said so) even though we see each other not that much. He‘s still a very special person to me and will always be, but no trace of limerence, I love to see him happy and with his SO.
When we see each other it’s as if no time went by. I‘m glad to see him but don’t miss him achingly.
This LE really turned into a beautiful friendship, and here I‘m 100% sure (with current LO I‘m not quite there, but on the way, today really gave me hope again).
So, yes, people, Lim-a-Rant, it’s possible.
Hi Mila,
Have you ever thought of a possibility: you could remain such an amicable friend with xLO2 is because xLO3 had kicked in afterwards, so the later Glimmer3 wiped out the prior Glimmer 2?
In my cases, when a narc xLO6 appeared, he could not kill my xLO5/LE5, because I had no first-sight grand Glimmer for xLO6 (he approached me first in a cafe and I immediately sensed his pair-bonding interest). But when I glimmered at a stranger, xLO7/ET, xLO5 instantly fell into a friend zone; not one bit of xLE5 left in the past 8 years (even with FWB). So I suspect until LO8 arrives, ET is going to linger in Mars as xLO7. My residual ”being pissed off” proves he is not just a non-agitating friend yet, despite he helped me a great deal in a non-conventional way — the powerful imagination helped myself with my cptsd recovery.
LaR does not have another LO after the current one… let’s see what happens after this LE. Also, you both share one thing in common — both LOs were friends before LE, which is different from all my small or big LEs.
Not to refute your conclusion, just throw one observation on your, LaR’s and my own cases.
Glad to hear you’re happy presently. 😊
Hi Snow,
yes, I transferred from LO2 to LO3, as I did from LO1 to LO2. But no friendship with LO1.
I don’t think the transference is the reason we stayed friends, but it accelerated a state of mind where that was possible. LO2 leaving town and workplace was more crucial for me to be able to shut down limerence, that’s why I think it will be possible with LO3 too. So far no glimpse of a potential next LO, and I think I even successfully got over the little throwback with LO3 now.
Hold your thumbs for me!
Thanks for ongoing interest!
Hi Mila,
“yes, I transferred from LO2 to LO3, as I did from LO1 to LO2. But no friendship with LO1.”
I forgot these facts. Let me get facts a bit straight here: When just being friends with LO3, you were in LE with LO2. Then LO3 mentioned that he might leave in once year, you went into LE3 with LO3. By this time, LO2 already left your workplace or was still there? LE transference took place naturally or you chose to transfer it? Did all these occur before you found LwL and knew the concept of “Limerence transference”?
“I don’t think the transference is the reason we stayed friends, but it accelerated a state of mind where that was possible. LO2 leaving town and workplace was more crucial for me to be able to shut down limerence, that’s why I think it will be possible with LO3 too.”
So long distance sounds like a critical/key bullet to shot down a limerence (I certainly hope so, not in some LwL cases). When time passes, LO3/LE3 will fades away, and you could retune to former friendship. But could xLO without x-friendship turn to a friend? Were your LO1 and LO2 also friends before LE1 and LE2?
“Hold your thumbs for me!
I really hope to be convinced by your case especially after LO3 comes back later to work with you for his abroad work. From my own and some LwL’s experiences, LE is almost impossible to get over unless LO or limerent moves away. That’s what happened to DrL’s LO as well (If I remember clearly, she had to leave the lab, so his LE ended). And Speedwagon, ABCD, LiP, LaR, MJ…. I’m almost positive that my LE would never end, if ET wasn’t taken away, unless another bigger Glimmer strikes (not LE, which I know about now — killed Romeo’s glimmer while still tutoring him, along his sexy eyes, presently).
“Thanks for ongoing interest!” “
I’m very interested in how LE could completely end when LO is still around, and whether an xLO could become a friend with the limerent. As an xLO, I remain loyal, long-distanced friend with several x-limerent-friends and genuinely care for their lives. They always come to see me while visiting my town in business or for leisure and bring me (or Mother) small gifts. I could not get my Unconscious produce Glimmer at them, even after having spent a decent amount of time with them, respectively.
Hi Snow,
just saw your reply. It’s hard to keep track here!
„When just being friends with LO3, you were in LE with LO2. Then LO3 mentioned that he might leave in once year, you went into LE3 with LO3. By this time, LO2 already left your workplace or was still there?“
yes, but I think in this case LE2 had already almost petered out, when transference occurred. LO2 had left the workplace earlier to that.
I knew LwL then, but not when I transferred from LO1 to LO2. That one was more of a real transference than from 2 to 3. Of course , from 2 to 3 there was also a gap to be filled!
But I remember the distinct thought of „ I’ll concentrate on LO2 now to get away from LO1“ but nothing of that from 2 to 3.
In my case, LOs moving away was very important, yes. LO1 is still in town and workplace, maybe that’s why I needed transference? But there was mutual disclosure and mayhem, and I was so unhappy, I think it would have ended in any way. No friendship there before or after.
„ But could xLO without x-friendship turn to a friend?“
LO2 wasn’t a friend before limerence but is now.
I think it’s not only because he moved away etc, but because of how he behaved throughout the LE. He always showed he cared without crossing boundaries, and when I took a step too far he respectfully took one back without disappearing. It also depends simply on what kind of person the LO is if there’s the possibility of friendship, I guess.
„I really hope to be convinced by your case especially after LO3 comes back later to work with you for his abroad work.“
I hope that too;) but I’m quite hopeful. I beat that recent throwback back so quickly , I think I can handle that trip. But we‘ll see. I don’t think about it too much, it means falling back into ruminating, and I‘m truly fed up with ruminations..
Mila,
In this reply to Snow I get a feel for your LO2s character and how you stayed friends. His behaviours (warmth but respectful lines) sound much like my LO.
Mila, Snow,
Mila, thank you for “it can be done” and for thinking of me when you said it. That is really positive how it went with visiting LO2 and how that gives you hope for friendship with LO3 too.
“LaR does not have another LO after the current one… let’s see what happens after this LE.”
Correct – don’t want one, know the signs enough to avoid one (I hope) and also can’t see the route to my brain ever picking another one while this one is about.
I’m interested from a purely intellectual point of view though – have either of your transfers (or anyone else’s who wants to comment), ones that you did/could kind of ‘force’ (in a way to help you move past uncomfortable LEs) or were they purely involuntary forces of nature / not wanted? Snow, I would think you’d say forces of nature? Mila – I’m less sure in your case?
“Also, you both share one thing in common — both LOs were friends before LE, which is different from all my small or big LEs.”
Yes Snow, quite different to yours and fairly unique to Mila and I in this whole community (maybe Lovisa too but I can’t think of many more). A big difference between Mila and I though is that her LO is already assimilated with her SO through the family connections, so the friendship seems more fully ‘in daylight’. I was trying to think if I could ever make this happen. My SO and LO have met a few times (mostly pre LE, but twice briefly since) but that’s all – not friends and not likely to be, though both have said they wouldn’t mind trying (ouch, that prospect hurts my brain right now). Was thinking if I could ever work towards that to make things easier, but I don’t think so. I feel more like my situation is more like LiS has described his, where the history of the hidden limerence gives the idea of ever ‘socialising’ SO and LO too much of a false start. I also think SO would get vibes about it that I wouldn’t want her to (she has got them before about another female friend where hand on heart there has never been attraction). I can’t see it happening, which might make it harder for me to maintain friendship with LO longer term, especially if long distance.
Because you said ‘it can happen’, the contrarian in me has now come to life and thought of all the scenarios where LO and I don’t end up friends! In no particular order:
1. A grand mess up with disclosure or severe leakage (unlikely now)
2. Limerence ends, I see more flaws and re-evaluate the worth of the friendship in my bigger picture
3. One of us moves away and there is just eventual ‘natural drift’.
4. A forced NC on either side.
Interesting to think it out in terms of the future. I do think boundaries have increased a bit on both sides now (an unsaid mutual acknowledgement that the train had to stop and turn back) so we’ll see where it goes.
LaR,
“Correct – don’t want one, know the signs enough to avoid one (I hope) and also can’t see the route to my brain ever picking another one while this one is about.”
Based on what you’ve told here about your LO and xLOs, you’re not the kind of person who could hold several LOs (minus SO) at the same time, which fits Tunnov’s theory. Blind Aphrodite/Cupid usually only shots one arrow at one heart (the arrow for SO has been taken away by Hera, leaving a space in heart for potential LO again and again.
“I’m interested from a purely intellectual point of view though – have either of your transfers (or anyone else’s who wants to comment), ones that you did/could kind of ‘force’ (in a way to help you move past uncomfortable LEs) or were they purely involuntary forces of nature / not wanted? Snow, I would think you’d say forces of nature?”
As I mentioned before, I had several big or small glimmers (all by force of nature, chosen by my Unconscious), but not LEs, since they were reciprocated either with EA or PA within a couple of months. LE occurred only when I wanted a surrogate parental-EA (even without Glimmer) but could not get it, regardless how fabulous PA went (three parts of my brain — by Fisher, did not work together) . All previous crusher/LOs were either single or divorced; only totally unavailable ET/LE7 was purely Platonic, only LE7 made me suffer least (not much typical LE expectations from me) while having produced the biggest, unexpected, positive side-effect — my imagined surrogate parental EA from ET almost healed my cptsd.
“I feel more like my situation is more like LiS has described his, where the history of the hidden limerence gives the idea of ever ‘socialising’ SO and LO too much of a false start. “
Never been in your shoes, I could only intuitively think/sense it’s wise not to make LO and SO socialize, because you (as well LiS) sound like unable to hide your LE well in your eyes. I never want(ed) to meet ET’s SO, because I know my eyes talk/reveal too much (a loudly crying kid, 1 to 2, in the train could not move his eyes away from mine this afternoon…)
“I can’t see it happening, which might make it harder for me to maintain friendship with LO longer term, especially if long distance.”
I’m curious to see what happens while your LO is still nearby even though you have increased LC and feel a lot calmer now. Your Muses have inspired each other and co-created some beneficial fruits, that solid tie is really hard to cut off! The only thing to help is to see Apollo is NOT vain Aphrodite.
“all the scenarios where LO and I don’t end up friends! In no particular order:
1. A grand mess up with disclosure or severe leakage (unlikely now)
It depends the nature of a disclosure — genuinely express a substantial gratitude, or want to know a possible existence of LO’s “reciprocation”, or bid a real farewell.
2. Limerence ends, I see more flaws and re-evaluate the worth of the friendship in my bigger picture
Do all your friends have no flaws/vulnerabilities? After your co-creations, the worth of the friendship can ever occupy no space in your bigger picture?
3. One of us moves away and there is just eventual ‘natural drift’.
A couple of LwL cases seem to have lingered in decades in a faraway land…. My LO1’s life (with a wife and son) was “ruined” based on his own claim/confession (I went back to see him 10 years after our brief interaction, and by then I could not comprehend what in him had crushed me; this anecdote made ET speechlessly giddy like a teenager, 15 minutes after I told him in a message in 2018.)
4. A forced NC on either side.
Do you think you are able to carry a total NC out?
“Interesting to think it out in terms of the future.”
Now with our LE knowledge and others’ LE stories in hand, it’s wise to “think it out in terms of the future.” However, as we discussed yesterday, leave all possibilities on board, not to DECIDE any specifics in any directions, or the Unconscious may crash our decisions or plans. Uncertainty produces painful anxiety but also carries a slim hope or fascination, as long as one has a certain amount of Stoic gut— try and do the best, prepare for and expect the least or the worst!
“I do think boundaries have increased a bit on both sides now (an unsaid mutual acknowledgement that the train had to stop and turn back) so we’ll see where it goes.”
I’m very glad to hear that the train has stopped or is even turning back…. Please sit still just to watch some mental sand sink to the bottom of the tank…. Then to examine what is inside and outside of the tank….🎽
Sorry if I sound preachy again. I’m still feeling under weather, and thus my mood is suffering from it, although not so much pissed off any longer. Scribbling makes my head and tonsils ache less.
Hi Lim-a-Rant,
I think while my transference from LE1 to 2 wasn’t forced or willed, I encouraged it as a welcome distraction. I thought LO2 could finally take my mind off LO1 without it growing into a fullblown painful limerence again. I was mistaken..
The glimmer just happened, I didn’t will it, I even remember the very moment of realizing that I’m in for a ride again. But I still see it as LO2 rescuing me from my first destructive LE.
Transferring from LO2 to current LO was even less voluntary, and I don’t think it was as connected to each other as from 1 to 2.
„A big difference between Mila and I though is that her LO is already assimilated with her SO through the family connections,“
Well no, it’s more that LO and me just got friends through work, and that friendship manifested also in getting to know the families and meetings of both families etc, but it was always us two being the primary bond here. The families know each others through this friendship, it’s not that my SO is particular friends with LO now or something.
But that probably worked because the friendship was very innocent for years and there were no vibes to catch.
In the last limerent year I think both SOs caught some vibes, especially his.
I think the fact that you are ruling out your SOs meeting etc is just a sign that you are still quite limerent;)
You might think about everyone meeting up and bring friends as a means to quell limerence , but I think you feel that you are too far from normal feelings for your LO to pull that off. I tried it with LO1 but it was uncomfortable for LO1 and me and felt like some sort of betrayal, but there was mutual disclosure before, so it was really awkward.
But if you honestly want to get rid of limerence and stay friends with her, you might consider everyone being connected as a means to get to that stage? Just mulling it over, it’s not advice!
Maybe you would need to be very sure about your intention not to be limerent any more and cut down any hope for reciprocation, otherwise it will feel like betrayal of everyone like it did with my LO1.
Again, I’m thinking out loud, not suggesting you something.. it’s an interesting subject.
Snow,
I just lost the longest reply draft to this, yet again, and now have no time to think/type it out for a second time. I must learn my lesson and use a notes app instead. I have lots I want to say in reply to you. So if it takes a while (maybe will be at the weekend) and I seem to reply quicker to others first, that’s why – I want to reply to this one when I can sit at the laptop undisturbed for a while and not lose the draft!
Hope the week is treating you kinder than at the start of it, in the mean time ☺️
Mila,
Thank you for the info about the transfers and other responses to my random probing, like about SO and the texts from LO before.
I don’t think transfers can be forced but the odd person here seems to differ, so it is probably individual on a scale.
I think you’re spot on about my situation. That I can’t see SO and LO socialising means I am still too limerent (I had a bad day yesterday after increased contact where all the good stuff and then the reverie etc flooded back up). We would leak, SO (sensor) would pick it up. This is why I really admire your ability to socialise SO, LO and the families. I think that the fact you all spent time together in the days of the innocent friendship was a helping hand, but it must still have been really tough for you in the height of limerence.
There are other factors in my case. SO and LO are really different people who I doubt would become friends independently of me. LO can be OTT due to extraversion and annoy people, SO can have the more introvert guards up with a new person. And I suspect that even if limerence did eventually fade to zero, the knowledge of how it once was in my head would make an attempt to socialise the two of them feel ‘too fake’ to me, even far down the line. It is maybe a bit like how you described it with your LO1. Or, like LiS’s thoughts on socialising his SO and LO, but minus the disclosure, knowledge of reciprocation and explicit EA. I might describe mine as “disclosure in all but name” because it is frankly impossible that I haven’t leaked it. All this bubbles below this surface in my case (but still seemingly fails to trouble LO) instead of spilling above it.
But at the basic level I think you are totally accurate when you say: “I think you feel that you are too far from normal feelings for your LO to pull that off.” Spot on Dr Mila, good diagnosis!
Lim-a-rant,
„SO and LO are really different people who I doubt would become friends independently of me.“
That’s the case of my SO and LO too. They get along and respect each other, but nothing more. No one from the families apart from LO and me are friends , our get-togethers are just an acknowledgment of LOs and my friendship, although his SO made some efforts, I think because she wanted our kids to be friends.
Get-togethers while limerent were a challenge, I always took them as a challenge to be as nice as possible to LOs family and try to get back to mere friendship. But they felt more and more a bit forced, I think because his SO picked up on vibes, and my SO commented on weird atmosphere whenever both LO and his SO were there as opposed to when only LO was there.
Actually I think it’s a sign of self-awareness that you see that getting families together wouldn’t be a good idea right now. I remember my LO1 kind of forcing a mutual work project with me and my SO and afterwards said „what the hell was I thinking?“ he tried to force everything into normal and innocent and didn’t see that it wasn’t possible at that stage. You seem to know more about where you are at.
Sorry to hear you had a fallback (throwback, whatever is the right word)!
Mila,
Ha! I just don’t think there is a literal translation into one word for what you are trying to communicate! Bloody English language! (Though I know what it is you are trying to communicate – how can there be a concept but no word?!). ‘Fallback’ = a back up plan. ‘Throwback’ = nostalgic, usually, eg an “80s music throwback party”. Could be ‘setback’, but that means bigger than I described mine. Maybe a ‘slip back’ or ‘slide back’ … dangerous to get me going on language anyway!
Lim-a-Rant,
yes, I meant a setback, but not setting back to zero, but like sliding down a bit while climbing up. Thanks for clarifying „fallback“ and „throwback“ for me, I used them all wrongly 🙂
LaR,
“I had a bad day yesterday after increased contact where all the good stuff and then the reverie etc flooded back up“
I’m not surprised to hear about this outcome, just as I had expected/sensed — long distance NC is much easier, while nearby or occasional contacts would easily cause our neural system to react (I can’t even remember how many LC/NC at my old work, all failed). It’s not our Mind’s fault, physical presence DOES affect our nerves, it’s biology or related to magnetic field theory.
Please don’t feel so bad, expect and accept such a “setback” WILL happen again — a Stoic practice; then when it occurs, you would not feel as discouraged. I could fairly predict that if the Martian ET suddenly drops in my path again, regardless how long I’ve gone NC or how much I have rambled and preached here, I’d fall back to rumination, reverie, and perhaps LE again. My ultimate salvation might just lie on next Glimmer, if I’m lucky enough…
That’s how “crazy” and uncontrollable human biology is; some say it’s the same with reality/life/the world, while we’re deluded to believe that we have all under control most of the time. I’m not fighting with my neurology/biology, although it pains me physically (my current tonsil aching) and mentally — missing some idiotic nonsenses…,
Sending you a ghostly 🫂!
Snow,
Thank you for the 👻🫂 and for the words.
I know I can’t fight neurobiology and thanks for saying it. I can see the setback for what it is – a bad day or maybe a few against the backdrop of many better days before it. One that will pass (and quicker if I don’t fight it) and will come and go again. This was always going to be a 3 steps forward, 2.7 back scenario. How is my Stoic training going?!
I agree about physical presence being a trigger. Normally, LO contact occurs (and it is not in my control to change it) about half my waking days. It really is a case of “living with” here. When I talk about LC I mainly mean lowering the emotional intensity of the contact and re-establishing boundaries, more than lowering the amount of it (some of the amount is under my control, but not that much). I have seen before the good effect of even a week or fortnight of NC. This is why I think I might have difficult future decisions to make about it.
I definitely have more tools at my disposal now, to handle both all the contact and the setbacks, thanks to the great community in this place.
LaR,
I couldn’t help release a sign in thinking about your situation/LE dynamics. Seriously, I am unable to guess what I would have felt or done in your shoes.
“This was always going to be a 3 steps forward, 2.7 back scenario. How is my Stoic training going?!”
Think and try to accept: it’s 3 steps forward, 3 steps or 3.3 steps back (when you feel down due to mild sickness or low mood), and then round-no-round; but do NOT stop trying/doing. I suspect that when you/we stare at the phenomenon long enough, it would very slowly reduce/stop its effect. Repetition dulls everything.
I still have to deal with residual LE pains repeatedly. When my Qi flows well, there is almost no pain from old, negative memories, I just appreciate its positive sides and work on new poetic lines. But when I felt under weather or over slept or depressed, the same memories became annoying or causing the old pains again as if they were new. Still, over all, passing time has its eroding effect on everything we ever felt. I take it for granted that those pains would come and go, round-n-round until one day they become just a bunch of neutral facts in our mind.
Sometimes even when I scan other posters’ experiences, I got triggered (really understand why Nisor and some other posters have to stay away). But running away is not a smart solution for me, I need to watch/stare at them as they come, until they back up on their own.
The amount of time you have to work with LO is really discouraging. “Lowering the emotional intensity of the contact” is not just up to our mind’s will, by heavily affected by our neurons and the Unconscious. So anticipating its inevitable occurrence, like a good Stoic, might actually lower unwanted intensity? Why don’t let your mind try it, which can’t hurt anyway.
“I have seen before the good effect of even a week or fortnight of NC. “
If taking a vacation could solve the problem, I’d suggest you take a long one. But it’s just a temporary escape, not a permanent solution. We saw what has happened with ABCD and Speedwagon. Again, one can’t go round an issue, but through it.
“This is why I think I might have difficult future decisions to make about it. “
I would NOT make any future decisions at this point, unless a better job is waiting for you or you look for a better one.
Typo: “release a sigh…”, “round-n-round”, “but heavily affected by…”
Hi Snow,
Yes, it is that eternal balancing act, isn’t it, between “keep trying / doing” (purposeful living), “but don’t try too hard or the subconscious will do the opposite” (Jungian) and “calmly accept the inevitable unpredictable events, setbacks and that they will pass” (Stoicism).
It is quite a balance but I am rapidly building up a lot of practice.
I think there is definite merit in your point that if you stare at an object long enough, it loses its shine. This has started to happen, some of the time.
As regards difficult decisions for the future, I am totally on board with not making any decision about a job change unless there is a better offer. I guess never say never, but the LE has never become so pervasive as to make me think about walking away from my work. I feel she is more likely to move on, and at that unspecified future point I can make more controllable decisions about the amount of contact that works.
I don’t want you to feel too sorry for me. For all the difficult bits of the dynamics of my situation, LO brings a lot of good to my life, and has done for a long while. Take the limerence out of it and she is overall very much a ‘net positive’ to me. Yes, that’s also what makes it harder to pull away and produces difficult days. But on balance I’m coping, not sinking under the weight of it. She’s really consistent, respectful of my life, and grounded. This situation would be so much worse if she wasn’t.
Thank you again for caring enough about it to write so much. I hope the worst of the sickness and 👽 mind intrusion has passed for now.
LaR,
“Yes, it is that eternal balancing act, isn’t it, between “keep trying / doing” (purposeful living), “but don’t try too hard or the subconscious will do the opposite” (Jungian) “
The above is meant more for mental activities — do not wish, will, affirm, think, feel… something, any direction, too strongly. Today’s meritocracy believes that if one tries hard enough in (or gets) A, one will get to B or feel C, eg. If I get that sport car/house, I’ll be over the Moon… Not necessarily!
Life is unpredictable, Fate has played a role throughout history; but the modern society often ignores it. Meanwhile, morality/ethics have been constantly evolving in all cultures as well. Only capriciousness of human emotions has not changed yet, due to our DNA and neurology. That’s why we still need Stoicism and other disciplines/willpower.
“and “calmly accept the inevitable unpredictable events, setbacks and that they will pass” (Stoicism).”
Even better to EXPECT setbacks before the inevitable, unpredictable events take place, so one would not feel so demoralized or discouraged when they arrive — a very healthy dose of pessimism! (Stoic). If a worst never comes, then one’d be over the Moon indeed! Of course, expecting the worst constantly is quite opposite in realistic practice here; most people give out cheerful, superficial hopes and wishes or prayers. “Good luck” does acknowledge Fate’s whimsical role in everyone’s life.
“I think there is definite merit in your point that if you stare at an object long enough, it loses its shine. This has started to happen, some of the time.”
Try an experiment here: read/say a very offensive sentence (to your ear) from 6-10 times, then to see how they affect your mind on the 10th time? I certainly did when insulting stones thrown at me out of blue back in February — in the end, they all lost effects or power over my mind and then evaporated into thin air…. Words’ power is limited and short lived, not nearly powerful compared to our DNA codes!
Also, closely staring at LO’s or (your favorite actress) picture from 3-10 minutes without moving your eyes away, without ruminating any thoughts about her, but just check every facial lines, curves, color, hair intensively… then check how your mind feels about her look in the end….
“I don’t want you to feel too sorry for me.”
I hear the struggles of you, Mila, Bewitched, since all your LO is still in a close distance — either in person or on text. So LE emotions, wishes, analysis, rumination, and uncertain predictions run back and forth. Just as one thing seems to have settled, then another new situation kicks in… — the fickle nature of human relations! 😄. Leaning on Stoic, I wish there are definitive solutions/answers (and feel sorry about agitated minds); but as a student of Jungian theory, I have to accept that there no answers to some life questions. Again with uncertainty, life carries a luring quality of adventure, despite of anxiety and fear of unknowns.
“Yes, that’s also what makes it harder to pull away and produces difficult days. “
That’s the saddening part for me to “see”/hear. If without LE, you would not have to “pull away” while what your heart wants is to be closer. When I went to NC twice, 👽’s wondering and “wounded” expression hurt me so badly, although it was his own faults/lies that brought about the NCs…
“I hope the worst of the sickness and 👽 mind intrusion has passed for now.”
I got a bit sicker with worse pain this morning, cancelled a tutoring session and visited my pcp; it was just cold with annoying symptoms, not covid or any type of bacteria infection. I got some medicine for the symptoms.
I believe one psychological theory that when one is repeatedly angry or upset about something in the past, there must be some unresolved sadness/grief repressed down; anger is a superficial symptom to cover up for something else that was/is beyond one’s control. I felt really bad last night, so did something never done before, to battle my anger (not going to tell here 😄 ).
Then, in the middle of dead night/dawn, I woke up briefly seized by this deep grief, upon seeing a familiar little girl’s sad face (no specific memory recovered, no narratives)… I stayed with the sad image and felt my heart churning, churning…. Then I fell back to sleep.
This morning, despite the worse cold symptoms, all my anger dissipated, although the 👽 old memories are still there! This is what I call the Unconscious’ power — to reveal hidden roots, to balance different emotions, and to “heal” the past traumas bit by bit through dream images or narratives.
Trifles. LaR,
https://youtu.be/wU9QQffGeIc?si=iycmHzVXysSRZraO — Fisher talks Limerence, Love, and Mating
Four types of personality based on Fisher’s biological data — Dopamine, Serotonin, Testosterone, and Estrogen. I think you two would be very interested in her divisions of personality type. Everyone has four types combined, just which one is in a higher degree.
Fisher disagrees with Tunnov somewhat in limerence; she considers LImerence equals her definition of romantic love — in love, which can sustain a long term, 18-25 years, based on her MRI scan. In mind, empathy, effective self-managment of stresses, and positive illusion help sustain romantic love, while criticism, contempt, stalk, and self-defense kill it.
The interview is a bit long, but very interesting from anthropological and evolutional point of view.
Hi Snow,
Happy Saturday.
I still owe you a good long reply to bits of this and things further up. Time and energy are currently in short supply (but better bit coming up) so I’ll just pick up a few parts for now pending a longer reply.
Thanks for the idea (‘expect’ not just ‘accept’) to improve Stoicism. I am intrigued to see what staring at a picture of my LO for ten minutes would do (others will be too – MJ? 😂). I get your point though that you mean only focus on the picture, not allowing thoughts in. I’ll let you know. How far you got past the stone throwing words (originally) is miraculous to me, but you can only go so far before it is better to walk away with head high (ie. what you did lately) (is just my view).
Thanks for the Helen Fisher link – will be glad to delve into more of her thoughts. And thanks also for the clarification that the Jungian “don’t try too hard” approach is mostly for thought, and that action must nearly always be treated differently (more purposefully).
I may need a little more of your interpretation to understand your thought process about what happened (in the subconscious etc) between your anger management strategy, the dream, and you waking. I feel you got some kind of mind-cleanse from it but I’m not yet sure how.
“That’s the saddening part for me to “see”/hear. If without LE, you would not have to “pull away” while what your heart wants is to be closer.”
Yep, you nailed it exactly there. It takes so many processes (time, patience, stoicism, watchfulness, self kindness, energy, purposeful action, the list goes on and on) to manage these dual feelings amid real life contact that constantly challenges them. I’m ok though, and I’ll get there – time, patience and purpose. Please be assured that exhanges with you have been adding a lot to my ‘LE management toolbox’!
LaR,
It’s particularly soothing to get a Saturday morning greeting when your nose is still heavily congested! Happy afternoon there!
You don’t “OWE” me anything; only writes/reply when you feel it’s helping you in some ways, when you want to, and when you have time/energy. Every time I post to you or other ghosts, you can be assured that I was speaking first to/with myself, my Athena is rightfully Selfish (Capital S). The therapeutic effect of scribbling here is just like in a professional therapist’s room, even if it’s public with the trolls. It’s like a steel mill/factory, authenticating and refining especially fragile minds… allowing us to find and share nuggets of collective and individual wisdom and human spirit.
“I get your point though that you mean only focus on the picture, not allowing thoughts in. I’ll let you know. “
Well, even if some thoughts flood in, try not to stop them; Perhaps make your thoughts aligning with LO’s facial feathers, and see whatever comes into your mind… when I stare at something long enough, that thing loses its initial impact, positive or negative, on me. I don’t know why my mind works this way.
“How far you got past the stone throwing words (originally) is miraculous to me, “
ESL has its uphand here 😄, offensive verbal stones are weakened on their landing on an ESL ear; the intellectual translation makes them lose the aimed impact. I also had the surrogate-parental, confidant ET standing by my side in real time…. Lately after almost all cptsd was turned off by that “power switch in a COO spa”, I truly stand up alone and tall with my internal Phantom standing by 💪❗️
“but you can only go so far before it is better to walk away with head high (ie. what you did lately) (is just my view).”
It’s not just “better” but MUST. Remember Silent’s whisper: “Don’t feed the trolls”❓
“ the Jungian “don’t try too hard” approach is mostly for thought, and that action must nearly always be treated differently (more purposefully).”
Yes, our ACTIONS need to be purposeful and decisive, which still doesn’t guarantee a total freedom of intrusive thoughts, relapse of emotions, residual LE rumination; nevertheless, one needs to keep Making one’s best efforts. Meanwhile, cultivating self-compassions and mentally 👁️ those unwanted thoughts and emotions coming and going. These DNA “ghosts” are directly affecting our neurology, give them space to breathe, nag and then leave.
“I may need a little more of your interpretation to understand your thought process about what happened (in the subconscious etc) between your anger management strategy, the dream, and you waking. I feel you got some kind of mind-cleanse from it but I’m not yet sure how.”
Every coin has its two sides at least. Mixing an unmet childhood need with pair-bonding desire “doubles” LE’s aims (happened in all my previous romantic relationships while carrying the unrecognized cptsd)— a superficial one and a subconscious one. On the surface, in bystanders’ and even LO’s own eyes, one is chasing pair-bonding connection. But subconsciously, one is pursuing a makeup (redo?) of the missed, unconditional parental love/care. In the past, when xLOs seemed to have met my pair-bonding desire, the profound needs for the latter were never met. I didn’t know about it at all until this LE with ET, who has a good quality as an actual father, which helped pull the repressed kid inside me to the surface to complain/lament (immediately after Father passed away).
Treating ET as a surrogate parent, I did NOT expect what a typical limerent would desire and expect, which in return disappointed me FAR less than other limerents. However, when I did perceive slight/ignorance from ET or saw/knew his pet LO/“a surrogate rival-sibling”/mistress, it was not just LE rejection or jealousy, but also the repeated “parental rejection/neglect”, subconsciously amplified. It triggered that aged cptsd, hurting me again in this chosen, imaginary reenactment — a double-edged sword!
During this lingering cold, the old jealousy pain came up and annoyed me to the point that I had to take a tiny action to beat it…. Of course, I analyzed why old memory kept bothering un-entitled me but still could not get out of it. Then my dream/Unconscious showed me the five-year old crying girl’s face, reminding me the subconscious pain was from the early childhood cptsd. I stayed with the profound grief with the churning stomach for a few minutes in the dead night and fell back to sleep. When I woke up in the morning, the anger was gone; sadness did not last either. The cleanse — the understanding on the unconscious level, was done by the dream.
”Please be assured that exhanges with you have been adding a lot to my ‘LE management toolbox’!”
You’re so sweet and kind to keep validating my ramblings ☺️. I appreciate your listening to and questioning my often muddled 😵💫 mind 😶🌫️ 🌪️ , which then pushes my 👁️ to dissect, clarify, watch, and accept its complexities not just in LE, but in life as a whole.
Enjoy your weekend!
Snow,
“You don’t “OWE” me anything; only write/reply when you feel it’s helping you in some ways, when you want to, and when you have time/energy.”
‘Owe’ was the wrong word. The time to write properly here is a challenge but the inclination is there. I struggle to remember how I navigated the first year of my LE alone before I had this forum to dialogue it out among the ghosts. I guess I was a reader/student here for the second six months of that year.
Thank you for explaining how you see that the dream worked. It is quite sad to read that story about your inner child, but all I can say is well done for keeping on increasing your awareness of it and working to overcome and live with the CPTSD. I can see why you see the experience with ET as net positive on balance, but also the complexities of it.
“Remember Silent’s whisper” (etc.)
I would dearly love tp discuss all this properly as I am confused by what happened (what was directed at you especially, but wider. I can’t make sense of it in the context of anything prior). However and with regret, I think it could do more harm than good for me to put it out here for discussion in public. I’ll just leave it at saying I think your Stoicism did you proud.
“You’re so sweet and kind to keep validating my ramblings”
Trust me, I never say anything I don’t mean. All LEs are complicated. Mine is no exception and I think compared to others, is one where is no easy silver bullet solution. We also have to make do here with the half-stories people feel able to reveal. In this context you have made real sustained effort to understand my LE (details revealed only slowly and bittily), accepted what I am and am not willing to put out there, and not judged. More will come with time. I do appreciate all that. My biggest fear that kept my ghost silent for those first 6 months was of being judged or moralised at.
I know you can feel quite alone here with bringing the Eastern (but with Western experience) perspective. It is useful to me. Both the T(hinking) and F(eeling) bits of me (I am about 50-50, slightly towards T) have learned such a lot from it. Since we started ‘talking’, I am coping with my LE better. Coincidence or not, I am. When the stones were thrown, you could easily have walked away from this place. You deserve to know from me and others (and I can clearly see there are others) that your input to us is helpful 💙 I very much value the insights that come from individual and group discussions about our LEs.
LaR,
As a late learner, I just took Fisher’s Temperament Inventory test, which is quite interesting. I was certain which chemical subsystems of my brain would score higher even before taking it, and it seems to be quite accurate!
https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/FTI/ — Helen Fisher Temperament Inventory, for anyone who might be interested in taking it.
“I struggle to remember how I navigated the first year of my LE alone before I had this forum to dialogue it out among the ghosts. I guess I was a reader/student here for the second six months of that year.”
You were luckier, I was in a complete darkness of LE for 7 years alone, while fearfully semi-consciously experimenting an unique way to easy my triggered cptsd (began to learn about it in an arrogant therapist’s room 8 months prior to the Glimmer) and (sub)consciously repressing down the instinctual LE desire out of a grand first-sight Glimmer, only equaled by Glimmer 1….
“It is quite sad to read that story about your inner child, but all I can say is well done for keeping on increasing your awareness of it and working to overcome and live with the CPTSD. “
Cptsd (deeply affecting many aspects in the sufferer’s life) is much a bigger umbrella hovering over LE, along with several other psychological phenomena. It can never be wiped out in one’s history/system. However, one can outgrow cptsd through effective (self)therapies with a professional, or a truly trustworthy, non-judgmental friend/confidant, or one’s Self. With my recent healing breakthrough (7/7 dream), I am hopeful that one day I would dream peacefully (— much more emotionally powerful than the rational mind) about that sad-faced little girl…
Due to COO’s oppressive political system and repressive culture , I “innately” hated/distrusted authority and detested authoritative figures/voices, thus tended to quietly/secretly rebel rules (no one wanted to go to a labor camp/prison over there) even at age of 5. So 8 months before I found LwL (7/23), I have taken the healing process totally to my own hand (after having worked, in vain, with a half-dozen licensed psychotherapists, all women, off and on over a decade), only with the enigmatic, flawed ET standing by 12/22 (started in 9/2018). All the current ramblings here are a part of this continuous meaninful journey.
“I can see why you see the experience with ET as net positive on balance, but also the complexities of it.”
Human nature is so infinitely complex. As a habitual pessimist, let me put this way: I was lucky overall for whoever ET was with his shadowy parts. If he were a true Narc, he could have “eaten” me alive in whatever mentally abusive ways one could have imagined. On the contrary, due to his bright sides, I got the cptsd largely healed through my own imagination along with his crucial, non-judgmental “standing by” or maybe his “damsel-rescue complex”.
I guess after all, my Unconscious Glimmer-pick was NOT that blind! Again, one can’t be too greedy in wanting ALL in one’s reality, and needs to be sincerely grateful for any unexpected fruits, even bittersweet, Fate has incidentally brought into one’s small existence — one of Buddhistic and fatalistic traditions (stressing much less the Western individualism)
“Remember Silent’s whisper” (etc.)
I would dearly love to discuss all this properly as I am confused by what happened (what was directed at you especially, but wider. I can’t make sense of it in the context of anything prior). “
Oh dear, you’re too absorbed in your own LE ‘entanglement’ to see the whole picture; understandable! I’m grateful that there is, at least, one very wise and kind mind 👁️ watching over us and give us proper warnings when it’s necessary — LwL is not as safe as a private therapist’s room, despite DrL’s Buddhistic sanctuary and protection. Do not reveal too much, internal or realistic stuff or pay any attention (feed) to 👿 😈.
“However and with regret, I think it could do more harm than good for me to put it out here for discussion in public. I’ll just leave it at saying I think your Stoicism did you proud.”
It’s wise to leave it as it is now but EXPECT that anything could happen in this Zeus-knows-how-big ghost land. Yes, I’m thrilled of my improved, tested Stoic strength — now reached from 50% to 80%. As I told ET in the past year, this ghost land (did not reveal the name) was a great training ground for Stoic practices; he warned me potential online risks but understood my needs to liberate my habitually repressed gut to speak up (so oppressed in COO) my eclectic, complicated, unfixed mind.
“Trust me, I never say anything I don’t mean. “
Really? 😳 I’m still dying to meet/know a true Man of Word in the West. 😀 With my HSP eyes and ears, I have intuitively or unintentionally caught lies of black and white from every single man and woman I’ve encountered (except Asperger kids/teenages), MYSELF included! I’m not moralizing the common phenomenon at all; it’s understandable sometimes it’s a necessity, meant to protect our vulnerability and that of others. “Say what one means, mean what one says” is one of highest virtues in COO.
“All LEs are complicated. Mine is no exception and I think compared to others, is one where is no easy silver bullet solution. We also have to make do here with the half-stories people feel able to reveal. “
Totally agree. LE is a landmine of Zeus intended morality/ethics/biology/neurology/ all mixed up, which could explode one’s life in pieces anytime. So a half or even a quarter of stories are okay to carefully reveal/talk about in a public domain.
I think many limerents here are looking for silver bullets to remove their LE pains, but the truth is there are NO silver bullets existing besides a set of actions DrL strongly advocates. However, with LwL’s nuggets, combined with one’s own maturity, patience, and determination to learn and heal, I believe many, if not most, could eventually find/build some effective solutions to at least reduce or simply distract their LE sufferings. Knowledge or awareness is a half weapon!
“In this context you have made real sustained effort to understand my LE (details revealed only slowly and bittily), accepted what I am and am not willing to put out there, and not judged. More will come with time. “
Your case is complicated, which interests and challenges a curious mind. I tend to “judge” people based on whether any harms, primarily mental one, are intended or done. I don’t stick to some of mainstream moralities which has enraged extreme moralists. Judging people for our uncontrollable neurological activities or moralizing our DNA drives is unscientific, illogical and even inhuman!
“My biggest fear that kept my ghost silent for those first 6 months was of being judged or moralised at.”
“We are all the judges and the judged, victims of the casual malice and fantasy of others, and ready sources of fantasy and malice in our turn. — IRIS MURDOCH
These are two sides of the coin waking hand-in-hand in all human interactions, one side does not exist without the other. Stoicism advocates abandon/care neither of two sides — positive validation or negative invalidation. However in reality, the majority of people, both in the East and West, do not see that “the eyes of others our prisons; their thoughts our cages.” — Virginia Woolf.
Whether sweet or bitter, prisons and cages are still prisons and cages! Still, our DNA/neurology make us all care for LO’s eyes. So how do we get free from this irresistible, bittersweet, and addictive cage framed with Glimmer?
“I know you can feel quite alone here with bringing the Eastern (but with Western experience) perspective. It is useful to me…. I am coping with my LE better. Coincidence or not, I am.”
Feeling alone is different from feeling lonely. “Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissible.” I think some of my odd views have been understood, more or less, in this forum, which has made me feel less lonely, indeed.
The truth is, I rarely felt lonely while busy monologuing/talking to ET or with my Selfs, jolting down a couple lines of purple prose, or speaking with a bunch of responsive human spirits here. How could a concentrated mind ever feel alone/lonely regardless the matter it is focusing on (to Bewitched: creativity does not make one feel isolated, but fulfilled during the process)? It could drive up dopamine and brings creator’s high, like running for a runner’s high. Meanwhile, the other side of the coin is, “Every artist is an unhappy lover. And unhappy lovers want to tell their story.” — Iris Murdoch
“When the stones were thrown, you could easily have walked away from this place.”
Yes, I could have. But where else could I, a cptsd survivor, get such an ideal, anonymous training ground for more desired Stoic traits❓While in fact verbal“stones or missiles” from a ghost land could not affect my grounded life in reality, I could simultaneously grow stronger and mature through our shared LE explorations and struggles in camaraderie. I hope this is the case for you and others.
“You deserve to know from me and others (and I can clearly see there are others) that your input to us is helpful 💙 I very much value the insights that come from individual and group discussions about our LEs.”
Thank you again (along with several others) for your complimenting, challenging, encouraging and supporting words. We need to hold/send our biggest gratitude to DrL! I was so unwilling to open my insecure, fragile mouth when he first invited me to participate, and then so nervously wading through the strange, foggy, ghostly land….
Now, look where I am….☺️
Hi Snow,
Hope you’ve had a nice weekend (or ‘are having’). Glorious here for the time of year today so been out and about getting fresh air, nature and vitamin D.
“Oh dear, you’re too absorbed in your own LE ‘entanglement’ to see the whole picture; understandable!”
Not quite – I will unpack a bit. I do understand Silent’s words, exactly why they were said and why they make sense to follow. The bit I don’t understand is why it all blew up before that. I sense you probably do but also think it is better not to revisit. I respect that. I am newer to LwL than a lot of the regular commenters, which may be why, but have looked a fair bit at the history and it is in that context that I say it doesn’t make sense.
How come you got invited in by DrL, or can’t you say?
Yeah I was lucky to land here 6 months or so into LE and start conversing about another 6 months later. There is only so long one can spend on those “30 ways to tell if your friend likes you back” websites before one needs something a bit grittier 😅😅
Snow,
I tried Helen Fisher’s test with the link you went. I got a strange bunch of results. All four scores between 23 and 27 , so none especially high (the prosocial / oxytocin one highest). A true mixed bag. Not like MBTI where 3 out of my 4 areas come out pretty clearly in one direction.
LaR,
“I sense you probably do but also think it is better not to revisit“
No, absolutely not! Everything I ever said to any ghost was public here and I do not have any ghost’s email. Just like you and Bewitched commented: it did not make any sense, and it was out of blue repeatedly. It seems beyond comprehension of most “ordinary/normal” mind. I don’t want to say it’s fickleness of human natures since there are several neurodivergent involved here, ME included. There might be a 21st century Holden of “Cather in the Rye” here… there might be that repulsive hat “Thought Police” which I certainly did not throw on any ghost’s head… which still exists both in COO and the West, in reality and online…. So let us leave it here as a mystery of LwL town. 🏡
In July of 2023, I sent a request for the free article on How to Master Limerence and told DrL briefly about my case. After sending me a couple of emails about limerence phenomena (still didn’t make much sense to me then), he sent me the link to join in discussions (I originally just wanted to read all the featured articles in different blogs to learn about LE).
Thinking they might be just some random, superficial responses, like in most websites, in which I had never left any words, I hesitated. Plus, I was too ignorant about LE to even ask a relevant question. I did not think that anything I say could make any sense or matter at all.
A couple of days later, DrL resent the link again. And I saw that even one’s email would not be revealed if one posts, then I become a bit less afraid. So I fearfully left a sentence here or there and then could not find them, while still not knowing it’s a community…. I envisioned it as a Wall pinned up with all sorts of posts from strangers (reacting to DrL’s article or asking him questions), for whom one does not have to care.
Now, I’m trained and refined by LwL into a much clearer-headed, Eastern “Amazon Warrior”… 🤺 If you dislike it, blame that on DrL 🩺 who still hasn’t kicked me out yet….
LaR,
My scores are: 24, 10, 26, 39.
@LaR
That explains why I dared to physically escape 3 times from the day/week care center at age of 5 or 6, always wanted to disobey/break rules, and often fell into a low-grade depression if just following rules 😅 — the fault of my DNA! Sorry, “Big Brother”!
That may also explain why young kids, 🐕s and 🐎s like me… I’m their Mary Poppins! To make strange women to smile at me back is my latest achievement… they used to look hostile especially when with their boyfriends/SOs… 😊
Snow,
“I always wanted to disobey/break rules, and often fell into a low-grade depression if just following rules”
I understand based on what you’ve told us about COO, and about family, why that might well be that you don’t like rules. ‘Snap’ about too much rule following sending me towards depression. I was brought up with a fairly traditional set of rules and values and encouraged to follow them, and quite linear paths through life. It didn’t get me too far. The last 15 or 20 years I have cared much less for rules. All my 4 LOs, including the two when I was in my teens and early 20s (here is an interesting aside that struck me out of the blue as I typed – I have 1 LO per decade of my adult life) have been slightly (or more) rebellious types. I think my glimmers for them are my mind’s way of telling me not to follow so many rules.
Was Holden Caulfield miserable through the whole of ‘Catcher’, or did his character emerge slowly? It is decades since I read that book and there was not enough cheer in it to ever make me want to have a second go.
LaR,
After feeling miserable and ran away from home, Holden wandered in town without a penny, meeting a couple of older women who bought him a drink, and then encountered a prostitute who intended coach him(?), etc. then Holden had a complete breakdown and was hospitalized. But no medical causes was found, thus the mental breakdown.
In the end, he went home quietly lamenting — he wanted to stay in his childhood, catching children who are about falling off the cliff of innocence into adulthood, in which EVERYONE IS phony, and the whole world is phone. Only his little sister was pure and did not judge but loved him in the story.
Did you hear the similar outcry❓
Yes, when given some choices or rare freedom in COO, I actually did not break rules; otherwise, the harder they pressed me to obey, the more daring I acted behind their back… Here there is little need for me to break rules for the sake of breaking them, nothing I desperately wanted to have, not even LOs. Also since young, I sensed that human affection could not be obtained by breaking rules, although it could temporarily catch some attention, like that of my neglecting parents. Mother “despised/disliked” me more for my ignorant disobedience, because my little daredevil deeds made her “look” bad in public eyes.
Good for you to like rebellious LOs. My major LOs all seem to have a high Estrogen level — quite feminine… Masculine guys send me to run 🏃🏻♀️ without ever turning my head back…
Hi Snow,
The main bit of this reply relates back to a week-or-so-old message of yours – the one where my phone kept deleting the draft replies. I wanted first to clarify something about my ‘scenarios where LO and I don’t end up friends’. I was musing in quite hypothetical ways then. Not being friends is not my desired outcome or one I am angling towards for now. On balance, the beneficial effects on reciprocated Apollo trump the negative effects on unreciprocated Aphrodite. I was thinking to the future and whether the friendship with LO can ever be an authentic one grounded in the context of my relationship with SO – where we are “all friends”. As you saw me debate with Mila, the answer is ‘not for the moment’ – and I don’t need to revisit that part to be convinced. So, if that stays impossible, then I do have to keep my eyes open to eventual scenarios where I let LO go if I can’t find another way to end the LE.
Me – “A grand mess up with disclosure”
You – “It depends the nature of a disclosure — genuinely express a substantial gratitude, or want to know a possible existence of LO’s “reciprocation”, or bid a real farewell.”
I am past the danger of a disclosure to know about reciprocation. That peaked as I was joining LwL in May/June. I actually think (though may be wrong), that we’d somehow work at it enough to get past an ‘express substantial gratitude’ type disclosure. That would feel a nice thing to do, but is far too risky and could get mixed up with the first type as things stand. I can express gratitude in better ways without disclosure. Should I ever come to a “bid a real farewell” disclosure – that is, if I am committed to NC and can achieve it – then I think I could wrap the substantial gratitude side up in that. This would be a bit like my pleasing exit from LO3. And possibly – though I’m not assuming – a bit like yours with E.T. – a disclosure without expectation.
Me: “Limerence ends, I see more flaws and re-evaluate the worth of the friendship in my bigger picture”
You: “Do all your friends have no flaws/vulnerabilities? After your co-creations, the worth of the friendship can ever occupy no space in your bigger picture?”
It will always occupy fond space in my bigger picture. It is just a matter of whether, at some point, that space is better maintained as memories than being continually added to.
Me: “One of us moves away and there is just eventual ‘natural drift’.”
This is actually the most likely scenario in my eyes – if the volume and intensity turns down, sometimes things do just drift in a more natural way. But I see the historic and current cases on LwL where it just lingers on and on too. I would play this one on its merits at the time, rather than forcing it or pre-destining it.
Me: “A forced NC on either side”
You: “Do you think you are able to carry a total NC out?”
Certainly not at the moment, for the various reasons I have gone into in the last week in other posts. But I would never say never about the possibility. To me, the forced NC goes with the grand farewell disclosure. To do the first without the second (ghost or invent a fake reason) would just not be fair on LO. Alternatively, LO could make this decision for me, so that’s a possibility I have to entertain along lines of the Stoic mindset quoted from you below.
“leave all possibilities on board, not DECIDE any specifics in any directions, or the Unconscious may crash our decisions or plans. Uncertainty produces painful anxiety but also carries a slim hope or fascination, as long as one has a certain amount of Stoic gut— try and do the best, prepare for and expect the least or the worst!”
Agree wholeheartedly. Not forcing any thought patterns for now – just letting it work itself out while not getting complacent.
“I’m very glad to hear that the train has stopped or is even turning back…. Please sit still just to watch some mental sand sink to the bottom of the tank…. Then to examine what is inside and outside of the tank…”
I agree that I could do with quiet time to examine the contents of the tank. As we’ve discussed in the interim, the train veers up, down, around the track in unpredictable directions. We do have a bit of the classic ‘limerent dance’ going – if I pull back, she becomes notably more attentive, etc. I am well used to all this now, and it is really just a case of keeping on doing the parts I have been doing well at in the past few months, and accepting (?expecting) that it is not a linear journey and that setbacks will occur.
—
Bits from your other messages:
“Lowering the emotional intensity of the contact” is not just up to our mind’s will, by heavily affected by our neurons and the Unconscious.”
I can’t force any lowering of how it feels to me inside. What I can control is what I bring to conversations between us, and how/how much I respond to what comes back. I can try to keep the friendship on a more even and ‘functional’ keel. It won’t work all the time but has made/can make a difference. I can also make myself less (emotionally and timewise) ‘available’. This sort of thing is what I meant by lowering the emotional intensity without NC or rudeness/ghosting.
“Fisher disagrees with Tunnov somewhat in limerence; she considers Limerence equals her definition of romantic love”
I haven’t had time to watch the Fisher video yet. The only real difference in my personal experience between love and limerence is that limerence is frustrated/barriered love. All of my past and current SOs who I have ever fallen in love with, where it went somewhere, involved feelings in the beginning that felt like limerence does – it is just that we were able to act on them, so there was never the drag there is within limerence of ‘nothing ever happening’.
Would you say that your LE’s before E.T. were really limerences, or just crushes/perhaps some of them love? It sounds like most of them were reciprocated either emotionally, physically or both, and at times you have described E.T. as your only true LO (sorry if I misquote you here) – the only ‘frustrated’ limerence. I notice at other times that you ‘number’ the rest as LO1, LO2 etc. – but a lot of your understanding of limerence seems to come from LE7 more than the others.
“I could simultaneously grow stronger and mature through our shared LE explorations and struggles in camaraderie. I hope this is the case for you and others.”
100% yes. A problem shared is a problem halved. People at LwL are, on the whole, a very intelligent and sensitive bunch.
“Did you hear the similar outcry?”
When you reminded me about Holden’s “everyone is phoney”, that helped. But I’d love to know what the imagined Holden was like, or what image he presented to people, *before* the time period in Catcher in the Rye. I read somewhere that Salinger developed the character a bit in a previous book.
“Masculine guys send me to run without ever turning my head back”
I empathise!
LaR,
“Would you say that your LE’s before E.T. were really limerences, or just crushes/perhaps some of them love? “
Before E.T. most “LEs” were just crushes and love (LO4 ↔️ SO).
“It sounds like most of them were reciprocated either emotionally, physically or both”
Some earlier ones reciprocated in both ways and I became their LO; later ones did more physically than mentally/emotionally, which was always my semi-conscious focus. Body and mind cannot be separated, but the mind holds a greater power in romance and has to come First, unless I was not in LE but just dating. I had a couple of emotionally unattached, fabulous lovers, which did not and could not activate my romance brain despite I tried.
“at times you have described E.T. as your only true LO (sorry if I misquote you here) – the only ‘frustrated’ limerence. “
Yes, the LE with E.T was only one that was frustrating because everything said or done in regarding to our interactions was vague and subtle, rarely passed beyond good colleagueship/camaraderie in actions. He gave me cultural advice whenever I needed and helped me some in professional/logistic matters, asked and chitchatted bits here or there related to my over-sharing or monologues; he had very patient, non-judgmental ears and good memory. I felt he did care, until his petLO appeared.
“I notice at other times that you ‘number’ the rest as LO1, LO2 etc. – but a lot of your understanding of limerence seems to come from LE7 more than the others.”
I don’t have other efficient abbreviations to call them. But most of the beginning attraction to them was like the first stage of LE — a crush. If I knew they already had a girlfriend, I’d immediately back up. Never had any interest/instinct to compete with other girls/women in my life, never felt jealousy except at E.T’s pLO, which made me feel so low and angry but which finally made me realize my subconscious pair-bonding desire (LwL knowledge) — which did not “exist” on my conscious radar for the 1st 4 years of this LE (I truthfully answered NO when ET asked me in person in 2021 whether “Is this an affair?”)
My understanding of limerence is mostly from LwL and some Crappy Childhood Faire videos. If I knew about it earlier, there would be different outcome — I would not suffer, especially in health, from so much confusion and IGNORANCE — the biggest enemy of all human beings! Thank Zeus/Aphrodite/Athena, I did not get one of deadlier kind of lymphoma; otherwise, there would no 🐦🔥 ghost left rambling with you guys here. 👻
“Did you hear the similar outcry?”
“When you reminded me about Holden’s “everyone is phoney”, that helped. But I’d love to know what the imagined Holden was like, or what image he presented to people, *before* the time period in Catcher in the Rye.”
When reading any literary works, I only focus on characters and what they represent to me; I could not care less who authors were behind their works, except few. Before Catcher in the Rye, it was 1950s in America, everyone was goody-goody confirming and following all traditional rules. After the book came America’s 1960s, everyone became rebellious, the establishment was “evil”.
My understanding of Holden is that he represents a universal youth in puberty who is about to fall or has just fell from the cliff of Eden/a utopia. The life on the cliff is full of innocence, honesty, a set of good rules/morality to follow. But under the cliff, social masks, lies, phoniness, indifference, money needs, prostitution, etc shocked and shattered Holden to his core. He’d either breakdown/runaway/rebel or learn/adapt/grow with wise guidance.
It’s just like when I first, at age of 13, realized that death would INDEED fetch us all one day and we’d become dust as if never existed; then I fell into a deep depression — what’s the point to strive or live at all❓❓Everything has an END❗️ Later, it’s Buddhistic doctrine — Everything is impermanent, somewhat “saved” me, but I have ALWAYS wished that all banquets/parties under the sky would just go on and on, never end — how boring that would be⁉️
“I read somewhere that Salinger developed the character a bit in a previous book.”
Holden was based on his story, and according to LE and Lee, he turned to be a “devil” in life (I have little interest in any author’s romantic life). He never wrote another book, kicked everyone away, and became a real hermit living on the royalty of his only big book. Here is a great documentary about Salinger and his Holden (free with ads) — https://link.tubi.tv/HPfIXKN99Nb
LAR,
Are you talking about transference? I’ve had several LEs but only one bona fide transference from one LE to another LE (versus a current LE fading/ending, time passing, and another LE forming). Had been limerent for a few years (NC for a while) and then met another LO. Presto! Previous LE over. New LO bulldozed previous LO out of my head. But who wants another LE? Subsequent LE was longer and more ridiculous in that almost nothing happened (verses dating previous LO).
Marcia,
I’m really asking how, for other LwL people, their limerence has transferred from one LO to another without a gap. Did one LO bulldoze another out and they didn’t have a choice over that? *Or*, did they choose/will it? Lovisa explained her transfer once as almost a choice, Trifles maybe too (though doesn’t regard her transferee as an LO). Just wondered if anyone else out there, Mila especially, had done that or if it is more the bulldozing/no choice version.
Caveat – i was asking this out of intellectual curiosity about limerence, not because I want to to transfer my own.
Lim-a-Rant
Earlier this year I met my sister in law’s childhood friend when my wife’s family came to visit. We all stayed together in a hotel and spent St Patrick’s Day weekend together. One evening my sil and bil asked if I would like to go bar hopping with them. Being we were downtown we could walk almost anywhere. My sil brought her friend.
Almost instant glimmer if I hadn’t recognized it. Same ticks checked off. Previous abusive relationship? Check. Single? Check. Fun and enthusiastic? Check. Tolerated my old fashioned sensibility? Check. She was literally LO but a bit taller and older.
We sat down to eat at one point and I was not paying attention. Everyone else, before we even got a wait staff member decided to eat elsewhere. Halfway down the walkway I notice she’s gone and asked “where is she” my sil says “she forgot her umbrella back at the restaurant”. To which I haul ass back down the road to get there in time for her to retrieve her umbrella. She thanked me “what a gentleman you are”. Nipped that $hit in the bud real fast, cause I could feel the serotonin start to set in. I told her it was St Patrick’s Day weekend where 90% of the population was drinking and it wasn’t the place for an unescorted lady. NO! Limerence you will not have me again! I’d like to think Lady Friend can stay that way. For the rest of the weekend I managed quite well I think.
Adam,
Phew, that one could have been a bit close to home.
Good to hear this story of you not transferring based on recognising and acting on the early warning signs. I take heart from it.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I think by this point you were not limerent for your original LO anymore. If you don’t mind me asking, what were the main factors / things you did to finally stop idealising LO and squash the worst of the LE? I know she left your workplace and so you had NC and that you disclosed to your wife which shifted things positively for you both, but was there anything else that finally squashed it?
LAR,
“Did one LO bulldoze another out and they didn’t have a choice over that? *”
It wasn’t a choice. I didn’t know what limerence was then or my history of it. I didn’t understand any of that then. I just happened to meet an another LO, who floored me. And because this was normal for me (normal but by no means happening often) … I just went with it.
It’s great in the beginning, right? 🙂
Lim-a-rant
One recent event I think has really helped me. Last month after a doctor’s appointment I went down to the location she worked at to talk to my supervisor (I don’t like the phone, I prefer face to face) about something work related. In the casual part of our conversation he told me that LO had come by there about a year ago looking to get her job back. Of course initially it triggered a rumination.
But when my thinking mind got control again, as I was driving back home, I started to realize in trying to get her job back was just that. She needed a job. That was it. She has a daughter to take care of. It had nothing to do with me. When I accepted that I was able see her more rationally. I was out of her life. She moved on.
My supervisor (who is friends with her outside of work) told me that the man she was seeing when she left is who she went to work for at that time. Something happened between them, he didn’t say what, and they broke up and she left that job. She’s with, according to him, with some other man now. Which also finally led me to accept that I am not on her mind like she is/was on mine.
We, my wife and I, celebrated 25 years together on the 22nd. We went out on the town. Stopped at a bar and I had a few beers and we shared an appetizer. Then went to a German restaurant and had dinner. When we got home we watched a movie. (If you like supernatural/occult horror movies I highly recommend “Late Night With the Devil”. Very good movie.)
So I guess the two big things are rationalizing LO and prioritizing my wife. That night together brought old memories of other anniversaries we had and we talked about what we did on those days. My mind didn’t wander that night and it still really hasn’t since. My wife has become recently much more affectionate and intimate with me. I think she is starting to see the signs I am over my limerence just like she saw the signs of limerence. Even though she didn’t know what limerence was at the time. I think they were all very thankful wake up calls for me.
LaR,
Transference is out of the question for me.. About all I’ll admit to is slight glimmer for Lady Friend. Even then it doesn’t feel like it did with LO. My guess is because with Lady Friend, I’m fighting against the idea of limerence again because I didn’t like it and don’t want a repeat episode. I do sometimes experience anxious thoughts of her when things aren’t going my way, a conversation we had or some txt I sent that she didn’t know how to take. I’m probably just more pissed off at myself.
Overall I abhor the idea of going down the limerent route again. It just doesn’t feel the same this time, so this may not even apply to your question.
MJ,
The question definitely applies to you and I’m interested in the answer. If I change the question round a bit – ‘which person does your brain now spend more time thinking about (in the sense of attraction), LO or Lady Friend?’, then your answer to that would reveal whether you have transferred in the sense I was thinking of.
LaR,
If you are asking like that, well then yes I guess I have transferred somewhat, because I do think of Lady Friend quite often throughout my day. However I am constricted due to making sure I don’t go overboard when we are not at work. Because I just feel like it would be me trying to edge more towards disclosure and I don’t even know if I need to say or txt anything at all about it. I’m pretty sure she gets my angle or intent, but isn’t going to entertain the idea to me about it. At least not right now. I’m almost positive it has nothing to do with our age gap either. (Even though she’s admitted I give her Dad vibes.) I know one of her CoWorker girlfriends always teases her about me and whenever they are together and catch me staring, they always laugh and giggle like little schoolgirls. It’s so cute, I can’t stand it. I mean I make my crush on her kind of obvious but I won’t try to make it “that” obvious. If that makes any sense.
I think it’s probably a lot like how ghostzoned worded it and Lady Friend simply enjoys me as her “orbiter.”
She likes the attention and how I go out of my way for her and for now, that is how things are going to be.. It may never be enough to tip the scale in my favor because we work in the same department. So while it sounds like a good idea, it probably isn’t. I kind of see this. Don’t $#!+ where you eat.
Her and I have discussed work relationships only a little. I don’t believe she’s against the idea of them, but not necessarily in favor either..
I’m mainly frustrated on the idea of how to try and make it work, when I don’t even know if the idea of making it work, is going to work.
I’m really not struggling hard over the matter either and in no way does this feel like limerence in the way it was over LO. Being that in limerence, everything felt stressful and hard, while friendship with this person is natural and seemingly going well overall. I’m trying not to mess a good thing up.
MJ,
So by where my thought train was going, you have transferred a large part of the feelings of attraction / your head space (I know not all of it) from LO to LF but without transferring the limerence.
Like I’ve said before, that has to go down as a good result? That’s the case even if you aren’t both on the same page about where you’d like it to go. At least you have formed a genuine real life bond this time – you had the courage to talk to her and not let it go the way it went with LO. If she’s at the point of giggling with friends about it, it shows that she’s comfortable enough around you. I think you’re doing well with it so far.
As an aside – I think I got that ‘look’ (previously discussed when you talked about giving LF a touching gift) from LO last week when I brought her in a hot drink I know she likes (one out of Adam’s playbook). Kind of a “that’s so very sweet but hey, this is a bit awkward” all rolled up in one look!
LaR,
I remember right after I met Lady Friend, the girls at Dunkin one night messed up my order and ended up giving me two coffees. I took the other one out to Lady Friend when I got to work and she wouldn’t accept it.
We laugh about it now. She said because she didn’t know me then, she wouldn’t accept it and thought I might have put rufies in that drink.. Not my thing, so I guess we’ve come a long way.
Hopefully you scored some brownie points with LO with that look she gave you. At least she thinks your thoughtful.
So the latest score from the first half is Limerence – 0 Mila – 1.
Mila continues to be out-witting team Limerence in the 2nd half, showing great stamina and high percentage of possession.
Game still in play, but not long until the final whistle.
Mila fans are very vocal and cheering loudly from the stands 😊
How nice, Imho❤️
That’s actually really like I feel today. It’s rather Limerence 1-Mila 2, since I felt limerence slipped through with a mean maneuver and scored behind my back (expensive gift plus affectionate explanation), but I recovered after a shocked pause and counterattacked immediately. Now I feel calm and distanced again.
How is it going with you and your long-distance dreamy LO?
Yes Mila, the gift was a very sneaky manoeuvre from Limerence team. It sounded very impactful. My heart would melt if I received that, but of course my LO is not a long term friend.
Well, I distanced myself a lot recently generally speaking which included LO, so I guess it’s been approx 2 months NC.
I know contact will happen soon by one of us. It’s definitely on me and very overdue. Essentially I’ve done the ‘cold’ thing, to try to break the deep bonds I feel with him.
Has he noticed ? Very probably. Does he care ? Who knows…
I’m not sure NC has helped too much as I still think about him more than I should. The current drama (driving MAXIMUM UNCERTAINTY fueling my limerence ) is an event is coming that he may or may not be attending in person.
He doesn’t know I will be there. So do I ask him if he is going or not?
One half of me really hopes he goes and the other half not because I don’t want to miss him afterwards, more than I’m missing him already now.
Maybe I ask him so I can at least prepare myself and get the certainty.
„ Well, I distanced myself a lot recently generally speaking which included LO“
What does that mean? I just wonder because recently I feel like staying home and not seeing people, a general need to stay with myself and family.
I think I would ask him. The danger is of course, it might lead to affectionate chitchat and warm banter, stuff like that, rumination-fueling etc.
But the alternative might probably be more vexing- hoping and trying not to mind, dressing up and building defenses just to find he‘s not there etc.
Better to be forewarned.
Hey Mila & Imho,
Great stuff Mila. It’s beginning to look like a smoother ride at last. You got over the sneaky goal (gift) rather quickly didn’t you? I have the feeling that this gift would have set you back for a lot longer in the past. And you see that friendship after limerence is possible, but it takes *much* lower contact and *lots* of time. Distraction helps too (you had other things on your mind). Your next challenge is not to transfer or succumb again to glimmery friends. But I feel that you may have cracked it this time! Fab!
I had LO contact recently and am feeling far more subdued about it. Determined to live my best life without it and succeeding at that.
Imho, I agree with Mila to ask and reduce the uncertainty about said event. You do not need to ask him directly but could ask someone else. Or do ask him directly, in a blasé way. Like a v short catch up chat and a “by the way…..”. Breaking NC is less important in itself than the reasoning behind it. If the reason to break NC is actually scheming to reduce uncertainty and kick the guy out of your head for good, then I say “Go for it!”
Mila,
“„ Well, I distanced myself a lot recently generally speaking which included LO“
What does that mean? ”
I guess dealing with the burdens in life/ internal battles (limerence etc ) can make one withdrawn.
Yes I think I will ask. When I was typing to you I think in doing so helped me decide to get that certainty and deal with it head on in adult manner. Indeed forewarned , be in control etc.
Thank you.
Hi Bewitched, nice to connect with you again.
Subdued in your LO contacts? That is such a good place for you , I’m very glad to hear that and I aspire to that too.
I have tried to find out from other people already if he is going or not, but no clarity.
Thanks for your advice which I will follow indeed. I’m Queen of ” by the way…” questions. And yes , you are right it’s about the right motives to make contact, and this one is genuine.
Thank you
Hi Imho,
while in earlier times I would have taken care to go the „by the way“ way and try to do it as casually as possible, now I would just ask straight out because the casual way sometimes leads to a non-committal or no real answer, and then one cannot ask casually again- I go for maximum certainty and just ask with the aim to get a full and clear answer.
I feel the need to withdraw too, but I think it’s more of a getting old thing with me.
Hope there are not too many burdens in your life besides limerence!
Bewitched,
„ I have the feeling that this gift would have set you back for a lot longer in the past. “
Definitely. I think if he would have fallen out of character even more, followed it up with more contact to the right time etc, it would have been harder. As I got the feeling of this gift as kind of not wanting to owe me after my farewell gift (and not seeing that it’s not comparable to that kind of personal gift)it was easier to see the difference between us and our emotional world again.
Also, I built a real habit of shutting down everything and seeing him as somewhat stunted emotionally, and all as futile, it’s easier to slip back into it, especially as he keeps playing the texting game (ignore my texts for a long while, but unfailingly initiate texting again, a reaction to me pulling back, I think). I‘m tired of games. I think it would have been harder if he had started a sudden warm charm-offensive after the gift, I would have been defenseless for a short time, but the gates have closed again now.
Thank god he hardly ever does something unpredictable.
Is subdued after contact positive? I guess so! Maybe our limerences can just go to eternal sleep if LOs behave predictably again and again?
Hi Mila,
This is very eloquent:
“I think it would have been harder if he had started a sudden warm charm-offensive after the gift, I would have been defenseless for a short time, but the gates have closed again now.
Thank god he hardly ever does something unpredictable.”
The doors closed fast because you started applying balance and logic instead of fantasy, what ifs, and wishful thinking. The executive brain is back in charge, it seems. As we’ve previously discussed, you’re probably over-correcting a bit nowadays. When he shows true affection and kindness in his (own) way, it can be over dissected and minimsed, rather than met at face value with genuine surprised warmth. But thats why friendship is still hard, I believe. I cant be friends with my LO, definitely not. He is either just someone I work with or in a whole other place (thwarted desire). I always knew he was wrong for me and I am sticking to that.
Regarding
“Is subdued after contact positive? I guess so! Maybe our limerences can just go to eternal sleep if LOs behave predictably again and again?”
I do feel subdued despite contact, which is good. Its not all firing up again. His communications with me are actually sometimes 1-2-1 these days and warmer than before when he was acting really weird and copied people into all our work messages.
Also, predictable like your LO. Predictably, as we just come to the end of the current shared project (with a football team of others too, but he and I are leading), he is starting to dream up another new project. I’d have used this as limerence fuel in the past, this has happened at least 4 times before, but now its more like amusement at his joie de vivre. Our relationship is really going through lots of evolution though. Its kind of interesting. And I still feel quite protectiven of him, weirdly.
Hi Bewitched,
„ When he shows true affection and kindness in his (own) way, it can be over dissected and minimsed, rather than met at face value with genuine surprised warmth“
There would be room to speculate if this was real true affection and kindness or if it was „I don’t want to owe you“.
But that’s a thought that came to me only later- I did react with genuine surprised warmth, this was the time window I spoke about where he could have got his foot in the door again , so to say, but he reacted on my reaction with not answering texts, not seeking me out to say goodbye, I had to look for him etc- I‘m really not quite sure about the nature of the gift and following interaction now.
It’s not that he gave that gift and I immediately dissected and reacted coldly, the minimizing/dissection happened some weird interactions later.
Might still be that I minimize him and his affection too much, but I’m also a bit tired of him always giving so much room for doubt instead of just being genuinely warm himself, it’s always me who is supposed to be genuinely warm, you know?
Might be he is also tired of a similar thing as my interactions could be confusing too, I don’t know.
It looks a bit like that, we are again at the point where he saw a text/picture of mine (as a reaction on him initiating texting)and doesn’t react at all🤷🏻♀️
I get the feeling he reacts badly/ not at all on texts that suggest mere friendship or might make him jealous if he were limerent.
But that is pure conjecture and I just don’t have the energy anymore to ruminate.
Actually I think your way of looking at your LO (amused affection and feeling protective which means looking a little bit down on him)has better chance to evolve well than my current impatience. I had your way of looking at him before the limerence, accepting his ways as likeable quirks etc, but I somehow lost it on the way. Maybe I can find back to it.
So will there be a new project? How would you feel about a new project together(I‘m speaking of first reactions- I was surprised at my intense aversion to LO coming to the work trip next year, meanwhile I actually think it could be nice and fun, all dissections of gifts aside)?
Bewitched and Mila,
I am going to be the awkward devil’s advocate male here now, and flip this around. I reckon both these guys really want to keep you in your lives but also know the inappropriacy of stepping over certain lines. So both their seemingly bungled attempts (Bewitched, your LO scrambling to start another work project and Mila, his gift) are maybe kind of reactions to that Gordian knot of different feelings they have, and them thinking ‘what should I do for the best?’. I no doubt bungle with my LO in similar ways! What would be the right way you’d want them to behave if they feel like that, and taking into account what you show them of how you feel?
I think you both know me well enough by now to know I ask this stuff out of personal / intellectual curiosity, not just to be awkward!
Hi LaR (and Mila),
The male perspective is interesting. I think that my LO struggles to get heard because of his neurodiversity (big assumption on my part but I dont think its too off the mark). I provide validation to him and I have (some) influence over others that we work with. Although LO is older and well-travelled has a wider circle than me, we share a smaller work circle over which I have some sway for various reasons (not seniority, but more like track record and probably personality). So maybe he wants to work with me again for selfish reasons of his own. Maybe I am more helpful to him than others are. I do question his attachment with a ‘cool head’ by asking myself this stuff. But since I told you before about the kiss and the name/ initials, it is still a bit of a toss up about whats going on in his head. Though I have stopped fretting about that, as you know.
But the thing is, I *do* like him. He seems very pure and innocent to me – Mila you said that maybe the fact that I feel amused by him was a bit patronising and i totally see what you mean, you are right, but its also amusement because I appreciate him. He plays by different rules than other people, I would say, and therefore, I find him interesting to be around. Even in the purely work sense his mind goes in another way to most people. Now, he drives me mad too with his chaos. But, LaR, when you ask
“are maybe kind of reactions to that Gordian knot of different feelings they have, and them thinking ‘what should I do for the best?’. I no doubt bungle with my LO in similar ways! What would be the right way you’d want them to behave if they feel like that, and taking into account what you show them of how you feel?”
I have to be honest, my thinking here is still a but mixed up. My dream about him has always been that I’d want him to be authentic and devoted to his SO while acknowledging (without disclosing) that maybe this was something that we would like to have explored if we had been free. But we are not free, so, that’s that. My dream is that that understanding could pass between us, somehow without disclosure. And that there is someone (Him) out there in the world that I have little contact with, yet a huge affection/desire/interest in and perhaps that feeling is mutual, without being intrusive.
How’s that for a bag of contradictions? And its impossible, of course.
And how come I still harbour this dream when I happen to be feeling mostly over this and barely think about him compared to how I did!
Hopefully Mila has a better answer to what she would *ideally* want.
Bewitched,
You have a way with words! It was an almost impossible question.
“I’d want him to be authentic and devoted to his SO while acknowledging (without disclosing) that maybe this was something that we would like to have explored if we had been free. But we are not free, so, that’s that. My dream is that that understanding could pass between us, somehow without disclosure. ”
I *think*, on best guess, that this exact combination is what my LO has sought from me. I have tried to deliver it. I think the understanding has passed, too. But the question ‘what does all that look like in practice?’ is messy messy messy to try and answer. We’re all doing our best, without the manual, in these incredibly difficult situations of ours, and we should all be kind to ourselves about them.
I’m really glad you seem to be finding more inner peace about your LE.
Hi Lim-a -Rant
I can tell you exactly what I would have wanted: less expensive gift or no gift, less frequent superficial texts, but more honest and direct communication about emotions. Not „I will miss the workplace“ but „I will miss you“; not accepting self-cooked dinners and self-made gifts from me and serving me freezer-stuff pre-cooked by his in-laws, but cooking for me himself ; not accepting validating compliments from me and never giving me some;not sending pictures of what he cooked or baked but bringing me some of the stuff; not forgetting my kids birthdays and taking my/our greetings or gifts for his kids birthday for granted ;not doling out validation and warmth in very small doses and expecting gratitude and taking my much more generous affection as granted; and, still smarting the most, not ignoring my plea to tell me his decision if he would leave town or not as soon as he made it, because the indecision hurt me so, and then let me worm it out of his SO and later pry it out of himself, but taking me aside and just telling me clearly face to face.
But, Lim-a-Rant, don’t forget that there’s still disappointed limerence speaking. It’s still hard for me to discern what is limerent over-expectation and what is behavior that can be expected from a close friend.
Mila,
It’s quite a list you have there! Observation 1 – a lot of that, to me (limerence set aside) sounds like poor behaviour from a good friend. Observation 2 – I am not qualified enough about the neurodivergence side to know how much of it is an effect of that.
What you said before about how LO2 handled things means you have seen a better way, so have something to benchmark against.
It is surprising that LO3 withheld the information about leaving the job / area. Strikes me like an avoidant behaviour to get out of a conversation he really didn’t want to have. Doesn’t make it right.
Hi Lim-a-Rant,
„ I am not qualified enough about the neurodivergence side to know how much of it is an effect of that.“
Neither do I know, actually. I think, a good part of it is neurodivergence. But even neurodivergent people (I speak of a little neurodivergent) can try to do something that they are explicitly asked to. In case of his final decision if he would leave the workplace for good or come back- that was what caused my limerence and gave me a really hard time. But he refused to talk about it with me, telling me that he would rather not speak about it but have a good time together etc. So I told him ok, I won’t ask him about his decision again, but if he can tell me immediately once he‘s decided, I told him how difficult it was for me etc. It was an easy task to follow, neurodivergent or not. Of course it was avoidant behavior, but I think he‘s not that neurodivergent not to do that one thing for me .
And I feel that this – me prying it out of him after one hour of superficial conversation over coffee and getting „well yes, I’m gonna leave“ as if it wasn’t a big deal- is what causes all my over-the-top anger and dissecting gifts etc.
Actually answering your question yesterday clarified that for me, thank you very much!
As to LO2, he didn’t necessarily behave better in terms of remembering birthdays or gifts or whatever, but then he wasn’t my close friend at that time- still he discussed his leaving town with me and showed me very clearly that I’m the one he will miss the most, also told me often how high he estimates and likes me etc.
I know it sounds like counting pettily. But with my current LO and his neurodivergent breadcrumbing it was really hard for me.
But I do fight to get over this „he didn’t do that and that“ and just don’t care so much and appreciate the things that he is able to give.
Hi Bewitched,
I didn’t mean patronizing. I meant a way of looking down on him as on a kid, affectionately, as opposed to looking up at someone shiny and ideal. One wouldn’t expect too much of this person one can look on indulgently, like I expect too much.
I meant it positive.
I know exactly what you mean by your dream of him behaving correctly but somehow letting you know that you two have something special. This was my dream for a long time too. Now I’m just dealing with determining what kind of friend my LO is, where I should place him, how I should handle further friendship, I don’t expect these special moments anymore. It’s just that there are limerent expectations lingering and hard to get away from them.
Texting is restricted and rather cool now, also from his side, and I try not to ruminate what is going on in his head. I veer between wanting a warm relaxed contact again and wanting to shove him a bit more out of my thoughts and life.
Mila,
This is a comment not an excuse, but men do just tend to be poor at gifts and remembering birthdays. I am one of those men. But of course (sigh) I remembered LO’s birthday and planned what I felt was a nice but appropriate gift (who knows if she felt it was appropriate, but her reaction said she was happy to get it). So I guess what I’m saying is if we want someone to feel special, it increases the effort we’ll make.
The way you asked LO3 to tell you if he was leaving sounds clear enough even if he is slightly neurodivergent. I have a hunch I get why he didn’t (avoidance) but that doesn’t make it right. Sounds like he took a conscious decision not to say, and that this was rocket fuel for your LE. It also sounds like he had a lot of self doubt over his decision to leave.
It sounds rather like those situations where you ask a person (say, at work) if they can do something and rather than say ‘no’, they don’t reply. I don’t understand the psyche behind that. I will always give a ‘yes’, ‘yes with conditions’ or ‘no’ response, not just a zero response. And I hope from that back from others.
I had an interesting conversation this week with someone who is neuro-divergent but at the high functioning end (Aspergers was her self diagnosis). She said she is able to learn social cues and ‘norms’, just not in the same way a neurotypical would. Kind of through repeat exposure and people explaining ‘if you see or hear X, then it means Y’. I am not neurodivergent myself and so am only reporting it second hand – I don’t want this comment to offend anyone. I’m aware that every person is different and that her experience with Aspergers won’t be everyone’s.
Hi Lim-a-Rant,
I wouldn’t think twice about birthdays and gifts if he would have shown affection in much smaller, normal ways. I tried to think for a while that we have simply different love languages, so to say, but which is his? Not touch, not words, is it gifts and things he does for a person? But then it counts more that he doesn’t nail that one either…
I get what you are saying. There was a lot of self doubt and pain involved in his decision, and I feel he still hasn’t really followed through, the way he clings on to our work calendar and wanting to go on trips etc.
He got me feel guilty because I whined about it being difficult for me that he cannot decide, while it was much harder for him. That’s why I apologized and said I won’t bother him again with that but please to do me the one favor to tell me once he‘s decided.
I told him that repeatedly, as I told him repeatedly how I would wish more validating communication sometimes, and the latter he tried from time to time.
Well, I did try to put it all down to neurodivergence.
But then, that’s solely my diagnosis, he himself doesn’t think he‘s neurodivergent I guess- he said once that he knows that he seems differently wired than other people and that he heard repeatedly exactly the things I criticized/wanted from other people throughout his life. But he seems to avoid any deeper analysis of his own behavior or emotions. He’s someone who has no inkling of his own real feelings and motives, I‘m afraid. I think he never asked himself if his frequent texting and other stuff is really appropriate etc.
And I‘m a bit tired to excuse everything with neurodivergence that no one else but me diagnosed.
Or I excuse it, but then I still don’t want a friend that behaves that way, at least not a close friendship.
See, you got me on a rant again, true to your name!
Your LO wouldn’t be like that, would she? I recall that she helped you and supported you when you had problems, which means you did have some deeper conversations further than „I don’t really want to talk about it, let’s just have a good time together“.
Gosh, I’m angry again.
Better calm down and get some useful stuff done for today..
Sorry for venting!
Hi Mila,
Genuinely sorry if any of my questions / thoughts about your LO have triggered you into rumination or annoyance with him again. His wiring sounds complex (beyond me tbh) and your wish to accept him ‘past that’ and the actions it causes, is admirable.
My LO has many facets to her personality but they are pretty predictable after you understand them (not neurodiverse). I can ‘read’ her fairly well and she can me. She does love a good rant about anything and everything, but my choice of “Lim-a-rant” as username was down to how I felt at the time I joined in! She is capable of different forms of conversation from very silly/jovial, to very deep. No subject is off the table apart from anything that veers closer to disclosure territory or the exact nature of the relationship between us. That suits me just fine – too dangerous. We both validate each other in other ways, eg about the strength of our friendship and what we bring to the other as friends, or things independent of that – eg where we know the other has an insecurity about themselves, saying genuine things to help. She has never made me feel like any of ‘my stuff’ is unimportant. So, you see, it would be an extremely satisfactory relationship if I had not fallen limerent! (But it is because of much of the above that I did). As you’ll have seen me talking to Snow about, all this makes it harder to pull away for the sake of my sanity and for my relationship with SO. I am doing it, but slowly and with lots of dancing back and forth.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
No, don’t be sorry, it helped me a lot! I think it’s good to vent these maybe irrational angry feelings and then let them go.
I‘m actually very thankful that you asked these questions.
„your wish to accept him ‘past that’ and the actions it causes, is admirable.“
It’s not admirable, it feels like the only way to get over it instead of steaming in anger, since he was always that way, I could have seen it clearly.
I gave him the feeling to accept him like that and pulled him closer into friendship because I was limerent, and now that I’m not any more it’s still my responsibility that I did that.
I complained to my SO recently about LO being not very charming/gracious but expecting me to be (about a specific thing) and he said „well, you trained him that way“.
I very much hope you can keep this friendship, it sounds great. It will be a constant re-adjusting and being honest to yourself, but I root for you, I think you two could make it.
Mila, I take a lot of heart from those words, so thank you. You have been very supportive to me at different times.
I think if a friendship is held in roughly equal regard by two people, who are capable of showing that (even when having to deal with masked or unspoken limerence), and there is commitment by both to retaining it, then they stand as decent a chance as any of finding a way. This is what I hope my case to be.
I really hope it for you and LO3 too. Give it time and patience. I think you’re in a phase of it that will pass, although into what is uncertain. Time will reveal. If you have to let him go, you will know for definite. Otherwise just let it percolate slowly and see what pans out.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
I also root for you because I hope you‘ll do better than me and manage it without vilifying your LO, it would give me peace of mind if it is feasible 😅
Me, I think I will try to text as little as possible without seeming unkind and that’s it. I‘ll see him in November anyway, and I’d like to have established a much less frequent texting pattern until then (it’s already much less, but still feels new and like on-purpose than natural).
Good luck to you, keep up the good work, you are my role model now;)
Speaking Is
Cara Benson
A trapezoid. Piano keys fill soup bowls.
The moon wreaks havoc on the dandy
in a field of proclamations.
A chamber pot. Walk-in closet rife
with used jackhammers. I find a helmet
by the washer-dryer for my free
free-speech call. The power dips
during dinner, sends every clock protesting.
I am reminded I do not declare
enough. Not customs—accounting.
******
About this Poem—
“I wrote this poem while thinking about, yes, the age old conundrum that is language. But also, how there is much more power to speaking up than I’m always comfortable being responsible for.”
—Cara Benson
Longing songs ALWAYS sound better than happy ones….
https://youtu.be/Wu5xMG77pQQ?si=nMQe9fTrwB5xf6eU — Fairy Tale by Li Jian
Indeterminacy
J. Mae Barzio
How many times I tried to record the Goldberg Variations
Once in Iceland another time in California
It was Mercury in retrograde I didn’t get the chords right
You see I wanted a different kind of music
One that felt like a foreign city or ice cracking
A prediction of snow and then the snow itself endless
I wanted the blue stripes on your shirt the paleness of your underarm
The whiteout of a spring blizzard, everything unexpected
See I didn’t do well with indeterminacy—the blank sides of a dice
The piano chord I recognized but couldn’t name
A different kind of intimacy because I was tired of being unsurprised
Behind me in the photo the black river unraveled
Like a list of the dead children or the ones I never had
The field split open like a lip
I asked the river for answers but heard nothing
The path was obscured by another person’s tracks in the snow
Snow falling so slowly that no one noticed it.
❄️ ❄️ ❄️
******
Desires was shaped by an indeterminacy of performance — John Cage
Hi Dr. L,
I would say, if you are researching on YouTube, you might like to look at The Crappy Childhood Fairy.
She is not an accredited therapist, and in that way, I think you should take her approach, and her presence, with some caution.
However, she has an interesting business model, approach to marketing her ideas, and quite a robust presence and community. I found her because things about Limerence were coming up in my YouTube recommendations (big surprise there.) I would say, as a look at HOW people gain traction on youtube, she would be a good example – but with What…maybe not so much, I can imagine you may find her unacademic approach a bit hard to take…maybe.
I could see a spot for you as a presence that offers the kind of insight that she offers, but with less of the “quick fix / silver bullet” aspect. To me, the compassion you offer, paired with actual science, and the quality of your community, these are clearly very intelligent and conscientious fellow limerants — is unique.
And yes, I echo that anonymity, for me, is key. I do not want my comments to ever be found by anyone who looks me up. I sincerely appreciate that you allow for privacy, and still foster connection, on this site.
Wishing you a great adventure on your new, independent path. I own my own company, and have for years. The autonomy is wonderful, and I also love the analytical aspect of trying to attract and retain my target customer, to understand them, and…best of all, to help them.
A Well-Worn Story
Dorothy Parker
IN April, in April,
My one love came along,
And I ran the slope of my high hill
To follow a thread of song.
His eyes were hard as porphyry
With looking on cruel lands;
His voice went slipping over me
Like terrible silver hands.
Together we trod the secret lane
And walked the muttering town.
I wore my heart like a wet, red stain
On the breast of a velvet gown.
In April, in April,
My love went whistling by,
And I stumbled here to my high hill
Along the way of a lie.
Now what should I do in this place
But sit and count the chimes,
And splash cold water on my face
And spoil a page with rhymes.
*********
With a trifling lie, Athena’s pinky could demystify limerent’s reverie eyes 👁️ hold Her hands tight, along with thy drunk tiptoes…
Convalescent
Dorothy Parker
HOW shall I wail, that wasn’t meant for weeping?
Love has run and left me, oh, what then?
Dream, then, I must, who never can be sleeping;
What if I should meet Love, once again?
What if I met him, walking on the highway?
Let him see how lightly I should care.
He’d travel his way, I would follow my way;
Hum a little song, and pass him there.
What if at night, beneath a sky of ashes,
He should seek my doorstep, pale with need?
There he could lie, and dry would be my lashes;
Let him stop his noise, and let me read.
Oh, but I’m gay, that’s better off without him;
Would he’d come and see me, laughing here.
Lord! Don’t I know I’d have my arms about him,
Crying to him, “Oh, come in, my dear!”
******
A limerent in convalescence… ❤️🩹 Poor Dorothy!
🐦🔥
Merry Go ‘Round….
Merry go ‘round and ‘round
in Living with Limerence ground
Limerents’ tears and swears
hit the fickle playground
Limerents’ upset and regret
roll up and down the feverish underground
‘round and ‘round…
Now what should I do on this ground
But sit and wipe sweat,
fling falling leafs’ whispering sound
And bounce and pounce sleepless alphabet.
🐦🔥
Merry Go ‘Round….
Merry go ‘round and ‘round
in Living with Limerence ground
Limerents’ tears and swears
hit the fickle playground
Limerents’ upset and regret
roll up and down the feverish underground
‘round and ‘round…
Now what should I do on this ground
But sit and wipe sweat,
fling maple leafs’ whispering sound
bounce and pounce restless alphabet.
🐦🔥
slightly off topic to your poetry focus, but I wonder if Nina Simone was limerent. She sang a lot of songs that reference what must surely be limerence. Mostly they were written by others, so hard to say.
He Needs Me
He needs me
He doesn’t know it, but he needs me
And so no matter where he goes
Though he doesn’t care
He knows that I’m here
He needs me
I ought to leave him, but he needs me
I know that I ain’t very bright
Just to tag along
Oh, but right or wrong
I’m his and I’m here
And I’m gonna be his friends or his lover
Cause my one ambition is
To wake him and make him discover
That he needs me
Ive got to follow where he leads me
Or else hell never know that I need him
Just as he needs me
Plain Gold Ring
Plain gold ring on his finger he wore
It was where everyone could see
He belong to someone, but not me
On his hand was a plain gold ring
Plain gold ring had a story to tell
It was one that I knew too well
In my heart it will never be spring
Long as he wears a plain golden ring
When nighttime comes callin’ on me
I know, why I will never be free
I can’t stop these teardrops of mine
So I’m gonna love him ’til the end of time
Plain gold ring has but one thing to say
I’ll remember ’til my dyin’ day
In my heart it will never be spring
Long as he wears a plain golden ring
Plain gold ring on his finger he wore
Plain gold ring on his finger he wore
Plain gold ring on his finger he wore
Thanks for the songs. “She” in the songs definitely sounds like a limerent…
Now, those alphabets wakes up mine instantly…. In conjunction with Anna’s message, an insightful creative limerent would say: she needs the Phantom, whose soaring a grand Glimmer and its dreamy glint could inspire…
Adam,
I was going to respond to one of your posts in a different thread but it’s now closed to comments so I’ll post it here.
When it comes to guilt and living in the past, I like the analogy of a rowboat and a canoe.
Have you ever tried to cross a body of water in an canoe and a rowboat? There’s a difference.
Rowboats are usually pretty stable. You can spin a rowboat in place and go around in circles without going anywhere. It can hold a lot of baggage. But, when you row a boat, you face backwards. You navigate by focusing on a point behind you. If you have a compass, you can keep on the bearing but you really can’t make real time adjustments for the wind and current. You’re going forward but where you actually end up can be quite a bit off from where you wanted to go.
A canoe is also very maneuverable. It’s also less stable in choppy water. But, you’re facing forward and a canoe is often faster. You see where you’re going and can adjust accordingly. What you’re leaving is still behind you but you’re not constantly looking at it.
Jesus said, “Let the dead bury the dead.”(Lk 9:59) I never understood that so I looked it up in a commentary. The commentary said the “The Jews used the word ‘dead’ often to express indifference toward a thing or to express that something has no influence over us.” https://www.gotquestions.org/let-dead-bury-dead.html
That’s how I’ve come to think of my XLOs.
L.E.
Looking behind at the past is “stable” and comfortable like the rowboat. But facing forward and navigating the choppy waters is scary. Like the man who want to “bury his father” it was a comfort zone for him. Abandoning his life and following Jesus was scary and intimidating.
I guess the past can sometimes be comforting. Not just limerence but even further back. I find myself often lost in the past and finding the future out of my comfort zone. I can remember the past as it was. But I cannot predict the future. Too many factors about the future are out of my hands. I guess that is why it is scary.
Hello everyone. I am here to share my update.
I am generally in a better space mentally with respect to my LO. Contact with her has reduced drastically, so, lesser number of triggers.
Recently, there were some LO pictures on social media that I ended up looking at. This was like a shock treatment, as the general wisdom says that NC works best. I got a little anxious at that exact moment, and the memory sort of lingered for the rest of the day. However, I did not feel melancholy, as I used to. This also shows that my LE is still a work in progress, though I am trying not to get tensed about how long this will take, who knows right.
At this point, I seem confident that if in the future, NC happens, I will be able to manage it well, and will feel even better. Since this is not on the horizon, my best bet is to “enjoy” the periods of NC, and just navigate the occasional contact, as best as I can.
Not sure how much I can do with LE thoughts, as thoughts are hard to control. But, if these thoughts do not occupy much headspace, and they do not cause much distress, then that will work.
Thanks for listening, and hope that all of you are well. Cheers.
Thanks for the update ABCD!
„ But, if these thoughts do not occupy much headspace, and they do not cause much distress, then that will work.“
Exactly. I think stressing out about that it finally has to end might prolong limerence in some phases. Let the thought come and pass, and don’t worry too much about them. Seeing pictures of LO of course triggers a reaction, it’s normal brain chemistry and doesn’t have to mean too much!
Rooting for you as always!
Thanks, Mila!
“Seeing pictures of LO of course triggers a reaction, it’s normal brain chemistry and doesn’t have to mean too much!”
Yep, the way I am approaching this now is that I am not beating myself up as to why I still have this reaction, but more like – yeah okay its fine, I will feel better, which I do, every single time.
Mila/ABCD – agreed. I think a clean exit with low contact is possible, to some extent the process of regularly going through occasional reminders and feeling like you are getting better about it each time and progressively relaxing helps. I noticed this very strongly with LE1 – at some point that feeling just wasn’t there anymore.
It sort of reminds me of the concept of moving out of Samsara, although my understanding of Buddhism is quite clumsy – you have to let your mind release it’s grip, by recognising your mind’s own attachments. The more clearly you can recognise what you are doing, the closer you get to letting go. NC is probably easier, but LC may have benefits of making that process active and regular.
Hello Heebie Jeebies.
Yes, for me, contact is gradually reducing naturally, as opposed to going cold turkey with NC. Not sure which approach would work better in getting out of LE, maybe depends from person to person.
In my case, it seems like my feelings towards LO are still strong, but, I feel that I am able to manage them better. Also, it feels I am now beginning to recognising the futility of the situation – both have SOs, so what’s the endgame, nothing.
The Buddhist philosophy you talk about sounds interesting. In Eastern philosophies, it is said often that desire for worldly/external objects is a futile pursuit, as they cannot provide everlasting happiness. What you are talking about seems to suggest a way to get out of these desires for external objects, I think. I will check it out, thanks.
Thanks for the update ABCD. It sounds like things are getting better for you. NC has been helpful for me also but I still have periods of missing LO sometimes. Not working with her now turns out, doesn’t make me feel as bad as it once did.
I still look at pictures of LO now and then. Still like to go off into rumination land on occasion, but it seems to be less and less anymore, so I’m getting there.
Wishing you continued success and hopeful you will get to your desired place in LE.
Thanks for your wishes, MJ. I wish the same for you, and for all LwL friends out here.
It looks like you are also on track and getting there. Happy to see your progress.
Over a month ago, incidentally I came upon a new professional photo of ET online, which threw me off my Disney world instantly…. So I stared at it long repeatedly over a week until the first impression was all worn off and the photo lost all its realistic feathers…
Nothing on Earth ever shines bright as on Mars. 😇
Hi Snow. In fact, when I saw her photos online after a long time, they did not have as mesmerising an effect as they used to. Perhaps, the halo is dimming, would really hope so, for my case.
Exactly! I was so shocked thinking I was looking at someone else… the LO image inside our mind is more attractive, sweeter, luring… given more life and sparkles by our LE affection and reveries…
Oh, reality sucks! 😟
ABCD
I was recently exposed to LOs social media. It’s not something I did on my own. I was talking to co-workers about a month ago and she came up in conversation. She is apparently seeing a different man than the one she was when she still worked this job. A much older man than her. Probably my age or maybe older. One of my co-workers showed me her Facebook page. And to my surprise my first thought wasn’t of her; directly. Despite not having looked at her social media in close to a year now all I could think is “this %&#$*&@ better not have any thing less than her heart on his mind”. I mean hell I couldn’t trust myself …. I felt like I might be making some permanent progress finally. I just want to know her and her daughter are in safe hands.
Hey Adam. 1 whole year not looking at LO social media is a great achievement, congratulations. I really need this kind of willpower.
In my LE, I started to feel some jealousy whenever I saw LO chatting with someone. It was pretty unhealthy for me, and I wanted it to stop. Having LC/NC really helps in this regard, till I get to a point that this does not bother me in real-time.
We do start caring for LOs, no doubt about that. This is fine, in my opinion, as long as we just think it. Thoughts are hard to control, I have found this out. So managing them is the next best approach.
“We do start caring for LOs, no doubt about that. This is fine, in my opinion, as long as we just think it.”
What I feel is genuine concern for them both has replaced the hazy attraction of limerence. I don’t feel jealous of him. I feel protective of them. And it is not the first time I have went to bat (literally in one case) for a woman in dire straights with a questionable man. At the same time however I have to end the thought at that and move on and not let limerence try and take root again. Sometimes I hate being an ISFJ. I need to start listening to my wife. “You can’t save everyone.” She will tell me.
Adam,
When I was grinding through things with the EAP counselor, she said that I was trying to rescue LO #4. I told her it wasn’t so much rescue as protect her. I asked the EAP counselor if she had ever read “Lord of the Rings.” She had and asked my point. I told her that there was a passage where Aragorn is talking to one of the other Rangers and one of them made a comment of watching over the Shire for years.
The EAP counselor said we were largely quibbling over semantics. She said that I didn’t like messy people and if I could save LO #4 without going into the water myself, that’s what I did.
While it’s true that you can’t save everybody, there’s more to it.
First, in many cases, it’s not your job. Thinking that they need protecting and/or rescuing if they didn’t ask you to is arrogant and narcissistic. The EAO counselor said that my intruding into LO #4’s life was “narcissism masquerading as altruism.”
LO #4 told me that she liked knowing that I had her back. I’m pretty sure that she later revised that opinion. I know that I revised mine. After that series of exchanges, I wouldn’t warn LO #4 if I saw her about to step in front of a bus. That’s the way she wanted it.
Second, you can’t save someone who doesn’t want to be saved. LO #2 told me that she was flying from Seattle to LA to spend the weekend with the guy who was cheating on her. My response to that was that I thought that she had more self-respect and that she really didn’t like herself very much. I ended that conversation by telling LO #2 that I wasn’t going to try to talk her out of it and I wouldn’t give her a ride to the airport.
At some point, you just have to write them off.
Adam, LE,
„ First, in many cases, it’s not your job. Thinking that they need protecting and/or rescuing if they didn’t ask you to is arrogant and narcissistic.“
Thanks LE, that’s what I felt a bit too. I know, Adam, you are far from arrogant or narcissistic! but from the perspective of the protegee (or whatever one calls it) it can be oppressing and annoying if someone insists you need rescuing. It is a bit patronizing.
I know you don’t mean it like that. But there are very good chances she just met a great guy who is good for her, and doesn’t need any protection or rescue at all- wouldn’t that be great? Why think otherwise?
You cannot save everyone, but who says she needs saving at all?
Read up on the Drama Triangle (Dr. Robert Karpman).
Nice overview, but it’s worth going to Dr. Karpman’s site too.
https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle
L.E./Mila
Thank you for being candid. I think that it is why I remain constant in NC because I know at some level that my motives are partly selfish. Due to my wife’s mental illness being a caretaker is something I am use to. And so it would naturally come to be with her when she started expressing her problems. And before I knew it I was in said triangle.
Lee
Thank you for the link. Very helpful information. All new to me.
While it seems like I played all three roles (in relation to myself, my wife and her) in the triangle at some point I can relate almost exactly to the “rescuer”.
“The rescuer feels guilty if he/she doesn’t rescue. Yet his/her rescuing has negative effects: it keeps the victim dependent and gives the victim permission to fail. It also keeps the rescuer stuck in focusing energy on someone else’s problems, not solving his/her own. The rescuer’s line is “Let me help you.””
Especially that last part. Why worry about my own issues when I can focus on someone else’s and “help” them. Cause it is easier (at least for me) to battle someone else’s demons than my own. Maybe where touch or eye contact or attention may have been the glimmer for others, for me it was solving the first problem that she approached me about. And it was just some random mundane issue. But her “thank you” and smile did it in for me.
I think this may (as the article touched on some) have come from my childhood. I could never be good enough for my father. Especially in the role pf serving at church as I got older. But I am a black sheep from birth. My mother would very well “rescue” me by kind of minimizing whatever I did that upset my father. I don’t think I ever felt like a victim, I just knew I had to do better next time in the same situation. But I guess in hindsight I could have felt the victim because of my perpetual inadequacy in his eyes but I didn’t self identify as one. It was more a feeling of despair that I would never be good enough.
The other realization in reading the article, is that if she was the “victim” that at some level she had to realize that. I unabashedly self identify as a “rescuer”. So she had to know at some level what she was doing. Which means she wasn’t the idealization of perfection that I made her. Which makes her just as flawed as me in the perpetuation of the triangle.
That means I also as the “rescuer” turned my wife into the “persecutor”. My wife’s caution and concern for our developing relationship was not that; it was oppression, mistrust and hate. It seemed tyrannical and unfair. My wife just didn’t like her. And that’s why she criticized (legitimately) how I acted around her.
But she was okay to be cautious. The song “I’m Not The Only One” springs to mind, as a tale of how much we don’t realize others see in our actions. “You say I am crazy because you don’t think I know what you’ve done.” My wife was right to question me. Just because I didn’t jump in a hotel room bed with her, doesn’t mean I didn’t cross any lines. But rescuing her was a privilege. While being the caregiver to my wife was a burden. But it is not a burden. Sure it is a God given duty as a husband and father to care for those I have at home, but it does bring me satisfaction that i can care for them and meet their needs. The limerence really twisted my “rescuer” role quite well with her.
The cost? She left. My marriage has a lot of work to be done in it. And a son that will never see me the same for what I did to his mother. Yet what does my damn brain still do at times? There are bed bugs in the bed I made. And believe me, I know from experience, those damn things are almost impossible to eradicate.
Adam,
You can’t have a Drama Triangle without a villain. Sometimes, it’s really handy to have a villain, but the persecutor/villain should be a legitimate one. That’s why I’m not generally a fan of using your LO’s faults to diminish them as a tool for getting rid of limerence. Seeing your LO for what she/he really are is fine. Tarnishing them for no reason is kind of cheap. But, if they never know, oh well.
I learned about triangulation in High School. I didn’t like it then and I didn’t like it any better when LO #2 tried to triangulate me. She leveraged me against my successor and she attempted to intrude on my budding relationship with her successor. I couldn’t control what LO #2 said about me to my successor. I never met the guy. I did tell her that if she had said the same things to me that she claimed to have said to him, I would have kicked her in the ass so hard she would still be bouncing across the street.
When LO #2 told me that she wanted to meet her successor, my later wife, I told her, “Nothing good can come of that” and it never happened.
Some people are more vulnerable to triangulation than others. Some people like it and some people don’t. A lot of people don’t understand triangulation.
HI Adam, I don’t know whether to say that is good progress or not! As it seems your limerence is helping people and the two things are mixed up. Was it different earlier in the LE? Did you feel any different shortly after seeing it and longer after seeing it? I sometimes think that is an important indicator. Limerence is a slippery beast.
sorry, just to be clear, one year of not looking is definitely good!
“Was it different earlier in the LE?”
Yes. When I first met her she was single from a divorce. Her ex and the father of her daughters had cheated on her. So the whole rescue complex was super strong. Proving all men aren’t despicable cheaters was my goal.
“Did you feel any different shortly after seeing it and longer after seeing it?”
At first I was taken aback. I wasn’t ready to see her again. But by my drive back home it started to subside. Despite my limerent brain trying to make a comeback and entice me to visit her Facebook again I have not. So I feel the concern for her and apprehension I have about this man is genuine and in control. I have to recognize it is her life, she is a grown woman capable of her own choices, and I have to leave it at that. As my intervention might just make matters worse for her. I have to hope that if she does need help she knows I will be there for her, or she will reach out to someone else she knows that can help.
Happy Halloween 👻
In the limerent ghosts town
we ramble, scramble our lamenting voices —
Treat me with a silver bullet
to kill my limerence, LO intact
or I will trick you with
my mask-off, scary limerencing faces!
🐦🔥
Happy Halloween 👻
In the limerent ghosts town
we ramble, scramble our lamenting voices —
Treat me with a silver bullet
to kill my limerence, LO intact
or I will trick you with
my mask-off, scary limerencing faces!
Trick ‘r Treat? 👻
🐦🔥
Happy Halloween to you and all these ‘treat’ faces we have here at LwL:
👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻
[No silver bullet emoji – dammit! 🎃]
By luck, I caught a glorious Sunset (with pink and 🔥 sky lines) yesterday at my little pupil’s home on the 38th floor of a skyscraper facing the River in the west. I snapped a shot (can’t be displayed here unfortunately ) and gave it a four word title that just sprang out a Proustian line —
The wildly, gloriously dreamt dreamy island called …, where once upon a time lived a Phoenix coated in Snow, soaring in Sunrise and diving into Sunset, inhaling and exhaling amorous 🔥 in reverie melodies 💭 🎹
With much delaying, I just finished all fundamental hand/finger Yoga trainings in Piano. I began to practice on one short piece expressing all 6 emotions with 6 varied dynamics… 🎶
❄️🐦🔥,
The composition sounds fascinating. I will look forward to hearing it one day on the LwL 👻🎹
It’s a shame on some level that groups of us who wanted to don’t have more private space where our deeper 📖, plus 🎵, 📸 etc could be shared. But I guess also that’s a big part of what keeps LwL as a safe space for all of us.
LaR,
The ultra safety key of LwL is our anonymity, which allows some of us to freely speak and share our most “unspeakable” inner Self with a bunch of ghosts (the trolls included) around the global. Without the technology, this would be never possible!
I wonder if one day some of us 👻👻👻 have a chance to meet up in person, whether we’d feel astronomically strange — out of space, and even ruin the friendship we have built here as “ghosts”….If we claim we are open-minded/hearted enough, why would we feel strange in reality after knowing each other’s inside so well??
I can’t imagine even meeting long-past xLOs, time, space, and lack of communication are making them the “reality ghosts” in my life (with more facial wrinkles or a balder head). In this sense, the past is really a series of “dreams” and should not affect our present and future living that much. However, ghosts/impacts of one’s old traumas still affect many (non)limerents and ignorantly drive them into repeated limerence.
We forgot to ask DrL — did anyone from LwL go to your talk on October 17th? I’d love to know how she or he felt afterwards.
“with more facial wrinkles or a balder head”
But in common with me, no moustache!
I think you’re right, the 👻 thing is just how it has to be here to have the safety and trust that we do. Personally the meeting people idea would seem like an interesting social experiment. Nobody would be as we expect, but I wouldn’t fear it (that’s just me though).
Balanced against the ghost point is the public space aspect and the fact you (collective) can rarely say anything in a 100% upfront way, because of the possibility of trolls and the silent ghosts. I worry more about lurking silent 🤐😱s than about any talkative 👻
As someone who has met people off the Internet a bunch of times, I can predict that it would still be like meeting strangers. It takes a bit of time to relax and realize that you already “know” this person.
Hello LaR,
There is a spin off community from LwL that has a sign-in where you can connect with other limerents. The need to sign-in means your comments are more contained and private is my understanding. Other LwL posters here maybe able to help with a link and confirm if it’s still active.
Snow,
I considered attending Dr Ls event, but as some effort would have been needed to do so, I was concerned as to my motives.
I feared perpetuating my limerence as I’m probably not ready to listen to a talk on limerence with neutrality.
I would like to meet DrL to say thank you and I’m intrigued to meet some of you too. Maybe next time…..
@LaR,
“ Personally the meeting people idea would seem like an interesting social experiment. Nobody would be as we expect, but I wouldn’t fear it (that’s just me though).”
I have tried this social experiment, as a chatroom owner once upon a time, the overall result is DISAPPOINTMENT…. Somehow words online did NOT correspond with in person dialogue/chats, to me at least. But the dominant content of that chatroom was about COO, so somewhat superficial, nothing nearly as “vulnerable” or “secretive” as limerence. I wonder with the depth of LE talks, would/could meeting in person make one feel less strange or a bit more connected since we (collective) “walked” together in the same journey with the shared, common pains?
“Balanced against the ghost point is the public space aspect and the fact you (collective) can rarely say anything in a 100% upfront way, because of the possibility of trolls and the silent ghosts. “
You’re right here that we cannot say “anything in a 100% upfront way” for the sake of our internal or external safety and our rightful privacy. We choose what to tell the public in relation to dealing with our LE stresses and pains. Some of us, like me, like to discuss about broader, general topics in life far beyond LE as a distraction, or an “intellectual transference” of LE, or a way to continue self-discovery with a big audience, like what Anna is bravely doing.
“I worry more about lurking silent 🤐 😱s than about any talkative 👻. “
Out of sight, out of mind! Why do you worry about the 2nd layer invisible ghosts here? If you’re an author, would you worry about how your unknown readers would think of your work? If so, how could you ever be your authentic Self (even after your reality is taken out/sealed)?
@Serial Limerent
“ As someone who has met people off the Internet a bunch of times, I can predict that it would still be like meeting strangers. It takes a bit of time to relax and realize that you already “know” this person.”
Are those people you met from LwL or some other online groups? If yes, were you able to chat about our shared “journey” in LwL, or other realistic stuff? And in the end, after you felt you already “knew” them, did you feel more connected with them? Do you still keep in touch with them online and offline?
We are all very different from each other, I’m just curious about how online “friends” different from or similar to reality friends. Which kind is more superficial or substantial?
@Imho
“I considered attending Dr Ls event, but as some effort would have been needed to do so, I was concerned as to my motives.”
Oh, you could have possibly made it! 😳. If I lived in Europa, I’d make all my effort to attend the meeting without particular motives except a huge curiosity. I’m a kind of person who could hop on a train in a couple of hours for a right and safe “adventure”!
“I feared perpetuating my limerence as I’m probably not ready to listen to a talk on limerence with neutrality.”
I don’t think I have the neutrality yet, but I’d like to hear how “normal” voices talk about our “abnormal” limerence behaviors and causes. As soon as I learned from DrL’s articles what LE is about, my embarrassment and confusion were gone. I think I could tell “insider” people that I’m a lingering limerent without feeling guilty or embarrassed. Some people do not even such a capacity!
“I would like to meet DrL to say thank you and I’m intrigued to meet some of you too. Maybe next time…..”
I’m also very intrigued to meet some of you in person; but not sure for what reasons, aside from my hard-to-die curiosity since the age of four. Within a couple of hours of tea or lunch, besides physical impression of each other, could we get to know each other better (than what we already did in words here?)— MATCHING our face and our words in LwL ❓ For me, it was really hard to gap the discrepancy between online ghosts and their realistic forms; a kind of weird experience in the past…
I could not even match ET with the Phantom in my head while monologuing to the latter late at night and seeing the former in person the next day. I knew my mind was playing some kind of chemical/neural tricks (also could never remember ET’s realistic face clearly once I stepped out of office) but did not understand what and why. Sometimes I felt that I was speaking to two people in front of me, ET and the ghost/phantom standing between us — so surreal! Five years later, the two “identities” were completely separated despite my effort to bridge the gap; ET remained as a flawed ET, and the imaginative, creative Phantom came back inside me 3 months before I landed in LwL..
My point is: one’s imagination based on chosen words — others’ words and one’s own, is different from OBJECTIVE reality — there is no objective reality out there (aside from a bunch of Data/facts) but only perceived/subjective/interpreted reality within in one’s head. What we know about each other in LwL is our imagination/interpretation of each other, not realistic objectivity of each other…. Hmmm, do I make myself clear here❓
So I foresee that meeting faceless limerent ghosts in reality would be huge challenging if not too surreal…. I’m not scared, but found the feeling of strangeness was hard to stomach or rid off afterwards (based on the experiences in my own chatroom — I met 3 men and 2 women, respectively, in other 3 places).
But I am not worried about meeting DrL one day to thank him in person and chitchat about my future limerence in that time (kidding 🙃 )… because I can match his weekly talk with his face now.
Imho, LaR,
https://limerenceforums.com/login
This link is on the bottom of the home page here.
I signed up once but never visit, somehow it wasn’t for me. It has something about it , with Imhos words, about perpetuating the limerence.
I would also be curious to see how everyone is looking/talking/being in real life, and in the height of limerence I felt that you people helped me more than any real friends.
But I think that was only possible because of the distance and anonymity and the very nature of this site.
I would have the fear that this special place here would be destroyed once we all meet.
Also, I‘m not talking very much about myself and my problem in real life to other people, mostly I solve them by myself, it’s rare that I open up much (as opposed to people opening up to me all the time).
I think I wouldn’t trust that everybody here would keep respect and distance while knowing so much about my inner life. It’s easy to adopt some kind of behavior here and not show some other personality traits, and I think in my momentary stage I would be wary that someone would think he/she can use his/her Information about me to step too close etc.
But that might also be because I seem to be in a stage of life where I retreat a bit anyway, I like to be alone at the moment and am not too keen to meet people.
There are still 2,3 people here I would maybe overcome my distrust for and have coffee with.
Imho, ‚will he come to this event, did you find out?
Good morning all,
Imho and Mila, thanks for the forum details.
Very interesting points, from the disappointment at real life interactions with ‘forum friends’, to the idea of our knowledge of each other being too high, to the trying to connect that information to how people look/act, versus our imagination of those things.
I’ve never really tried to meet ‘internet ghosts’ apart from one quite transient social group when I moved cities, and in younger days a couple of women from dating websites (long long before Tinder culture – you had to email back and forth in those days, which now feels a bit like phoning your first crush’s parents house 🤢🤣). Those all went OK without being spectacular (shimmers but no glimmers!). I think that was mainly because I got to know them for a while through emails before setting up dates, to at least know we could get along in each other’s company as friends even if nothing more. The whole culture around that has changed since, not in a great way in my view.
I agree Mila and Snow that the total anonymity of this place lets us get to a point of trust to disclose information, that many of us – or me, definitely – would never have reached otherwise.
Re hypothetical meetings, I guess simultaneously we know too little and too much of each other from the carefully curated versions we present here! Too little to know the whole person, too much about aspects of inner selves compared to naturally making any new real life acquaintance. I mostly dislike small talk anyway, and in an ideal world would just quickly identify someone I’d get on with and skip to the big talk. That’s kind of what we do here, with a bit of small talk thrown in. Maybe that’s why the idea of meeting people from here worries me less. But I’d find a big group daunting – i prefer smaller group or individual interaction.
In real life I have told a mere three people about this LE (one forced it) and none of them were helpful in return, so I have abandoned talking to them about it – two of them push me sometimes but I keep the answers minimal. My previous LE slipped out to a handful of mutual acquaintances and one of them used that information against me and tried to meddle. So overall I don’t have good experience of trying to discuss limerence with anyone. (Of course, the only person I want to discuss it with and would trust enough to, is the one person I can’t). So I have no outlets in real life, hence like Mila’s experience find discussing it on LwL the most helpful.
I remember a while back DrL suggested the idea that he might offer online support groups on limerence for LwLers. But in the comments most readers were too concerned about giving up anonymity. This seems to be a thorny issue for various ways that DrL wants to scale his operations – how to be more help to limerents than this blog or his book, without them giving up anonymity??
Snow, you asked:
“Why do you worry about the 2nd layer invisible ghosts here?”
For no other reason than a fear that someone who knows my situation (in the worst case scenario SO or LO) lurks here and everything that I say scattered around in this “public yet private” space could be fitted together to ‘out’ me. It is a very long shot but not impossible. It kept me silent for 6 months when I first came, but as you can see I am a long way past it now! I have never heard any story that this has actually happened to any LwL ghost, though.
Mila,
Thanks for sharing the link. I didn’t realise Dr L had it pinned on here all along !
I didn’t sign up , mainly because I would feel committed and I don’t want commitment whilst searching for the exit door, whereas here we can come and go as the mood / need takes us.
I’ve also been quite withdrawn recently. I’m generally ok with my own company. However, there is a balance. I went to a social event this week with a group from work and I was not looking forward to it and was a bit nervous as some people I hadn’t seen for a long time.
Of course it went fine and I know that I benefited from the social interactions and should make an effort to do it more often.
I have daydreamed about meeting you and Bewitched once or twice and told you my full story. I think it’s because I want to share some details of my LE that I haven’t here in my posts. Some aspects of the LE and my actions burden me somewhat and I feel the need to tell someone I implicitly trust who understands and wouldn’t judge now or in the future. As you said some friends you can trust now but relationships change and they can use it against you later and the promise to keep a secret gets broken as they let your story slip in 5 years time after a few drinks as it makes for good dinner party gossip.
I feel a therapist would judge (stupid,I know )and also I may bump into them whilst shopping with my SO, and that would be awful.
And, to answer your question, the answer is Yes. Big sigh! 🙄
Hi all,
About meeting in real life to reveal more about my LE, I feel that I would be nervous but also that I would be into it.
My friends who are around me are fantastic and I love them dearly but they would definitely judge. They could not help having an opinion.
And the real problem is that someone cannot understand limerence if one has not been through the rollercoaster oneself. My problem is also that I have some groups of friends from decades ago, so they know me well, but they would find it hard to be discrete, they would share information between themselves. (I could not tell an individual and feel that they would be discrete). The most judgemental ones would hear, they would not meddle and they would definitely be understanding to my face, but I think that they would find the entire thing too deliciously sensational to not discuss behind my back. This is actually an ongoing bone of contention. I just dont enjoy gossip as much as some of my friends do. I had a hard time when going through a rough patch in my family trauma because of this same idea that they were using it as fodder, somehow.
Also they would simply not get the idea that this LE is no threat whatsoever to my SO, who they all know. I am pretty sure that their conception of what is going on would be deeply wrong. It follows that it would be unfair to my SO as they might feel sorry for him when they really dont need to. In my own mind, I clearly chose him over LO. In fact, deliberately noticing all the ways that SO was right for me, was pretty beneficial to us andnour marriage in the long run.
Still, I am jealous of LaR having three people he felt he could confide in. I guess they were not helpful as they could not understand what he was going through. No one who has not been through this gets it! And that is why LwL friends are so so valuable. I have never told a soul even though this LE went on for years now. Its a burden that I carry alone, when not drawing help and comfort and guidance from friends on this forum. I am also rooting for you guys and in many cases would love to know more about your trajectories/ stories. I feel quite priviledged to have found you lot, even if its partial, online, and even if I am not as active as I have been on here in the past becayse I am trying to live purposefully.
Have a purposeful weekend, all.
Hi Imho,
„ I have daydreamed about meeting you and Bewitched once or twice and told you my full story. I think it’s because I want to share some details of my LE that I haven’t here in my posts. Some aspects of the LE and my actions burden me somewhat and I feel the need to tell someone I implicitly trust who understands and wouldn’t judge now or in the future.“
Could have been written by me, and also by past me! We would make a good coffee trio, I feel- both of you are such reflective respectful people, and we do have some similarities in experiencing our LEs.
„ as they let your story slip in 5 years time after a few drinks as it makes for good dinner party gossip.“
I experienced exactly this on a business trip, I might have written about it here- suddenly a colleague made some remarks after a few drinks that sounded as if he knows about mutual LE of LO1 and me 6 years ago. It really shook me. I‘m still not sure if he really referred to me and LO1 or to LO1 and someone else, but I kind of panicked very much, since I thought all is long over and forgotten. It was a very awful feeling, I can tell you, since I’m not proud of some of my behavior back then and really don’t want my colleagues or anyone to know and discuss it.
As you or Bewitched remarked a while ago, my social life tended to be a bit much at some phases,I still meet people etc, but other than you, I don’t enjoy them as much as I did, I find myself thinking of rather being at home in the middle of a conversation etc.
A big part of it are perimenopausal hormonal change, maybe.
Bewitched,
I also have friends like you describe them- they genuinely like to help and hear me out, but they would love to gossip about it with other friends in the know. That’s why I don’t count them as my close friends. LO would be very discreet- sigh- but not helpful at all.
I have two other friends who are not gossipy, but I still wouldn’t tell them somehow. It’s too hard to explain to someone, and too messy somehow.
Imho,
he‘s coming, wow, maybe it will be a good reality check? How long haven’t you seen him?
No need to answer if it pulls you too much into rumination mess.
Bewitched et al,
“Still, I am jealous of LaR having three people he felt he could confide in.”
To clarify – I never explained it as limerence with any of them (with the first two, didn’t even know about the concept at the time).
The first was an OK decision because he’s removed from the circles of either SO or LO. He has been through similar (maybe not limerence but battling feelings for a third party several times, which I knew about). He tried to give helpful suggestions but without having the full picture it was limited – his basic advice was “make a choice and stick to it”. But he then told the second guy (🙄, like you said, friends can’t resist gossip) and second guy really had nothing much to say/add (would not have chosen him to confide in, first guy made that decision for me which annoyed me).
The third person knows me very well and is in my day to day orbit, unlike the others. She also to a lesser extent knows my LO, and could talk to her. So she is quite dangerous really. She observed me and LO together and called me out / asked me what was going on. I admitted feelings (which this third party thought were more on LO’s side originally) but again not limerence. She seemed quite annoyed at what I’ve told her. I’ve had to work incredibly hard since to keep this friend sweet, as she has the ‘grenade’ and access to LO and others around our circle. I don’t think she’d use the grenade but I don’t rule it out.
So none of these stories had any great outcome.
Has anyone fared better??
LaR,
since all my LOs were work colleagues, it would have been too much of a mess to tell anyone about, and also everyone of my friends knows SO too and I would feel bad that they know and he doesn’t. So I didn’t tell anybody but you guys.
Maybe someone with an LO who isn’t that tangled into their whole social/work circle might have more experience with telling friends.
I signed up that private LE chatroom a long while ago and peeked in once, never spoke and forgot about it.
Just went back there to take another peek, recognized some handle names from here, and saw a picture. Just as I anticipated, it’s different from my imagination; but very nice to see a human face connected to a poster with whom I had conversed here. 😄
I disliked small talks either online and offline, my therapist strongly suggested that I learn its diplomatic skills, which are superficial to me. Making friends online or offline is not to build diplomatic ties.
After meeting those members in my own chatroom, I shut down that room — reality kill imaginations! I’m a neurodivergent who feeds on magic imaginations….
Words are so illusionary yet could pluck a soul like a harp🎶, or stab a soul like a 🗡️ , or toss a soul upside down in a limerence ❤️🩹 town, 🎠 ‘round and ‘round…. 😵💫
@Snow
These weren’t LWL groups. Back in the day, when there were still BBS’s on the local phone lines, the people running these BBS’s would throw in-person parties. Also, every now and then a couple of us would hit it off enough online that we would agree to meet offline. Now with the Internet, I’ve been on forums where I’d make friends with somebody in another state, but we’d be close enough that we’d actually meet up.
@Snow
Oh, the second part of your question—
We’d be friends for a while, yes. Then circumstances would change and we’d lose touch. But for a time, we’d have our fun experiences. 🙂
Should a limerent take friendship from a single, damsel-LO or bid Goodbye to him?
Award winning short film: https://youtu.be/qPDpS9SlzQ0?si=lGYZvHRcTQn4Twre — Situationship
That film is DARK (very good, but dark) in how it portrays ‘situationships’!
LaR
It happened in reality, as far as I know; there are guys, sounding so “reasonable”, like him, vice versa. And not everyone is strong or clear-minded enough to walk away like the woman.
Do you think it shows the dark twist of the damsel-rescue complex?
Just a hypothetical question: if without monogamy morality, would LE occur less? Or would it become a bigger fish eating smaller fish world?
To add one point to the previous post: the damsel rescue complex is very unhealthy mentally…. Thank Athena, I’ve finally reached a point where I do not want/need to rescue or to be rescued. (“LE5” was a situationship, I was the rescuer; then I was rescued in 5 seconds by my Glimmer at ET ) Now, I’m rescuing myself with the tools of LwL.
Adam, I’m pulling your legs…
Snow,
“if without monogamy morality, would LE occur less? Or would it become a bigger fish eating smaller fish world?”
I wonder if both can be true at the same time. Hypothetically, fewer LEs would happen without monogamy morality because people would just act on their feelings, not get stuck. I am not 100% what you mean by a big fish eat small fish world. If you mean would 20% of the people have 80% of the relationships, and 80% have the remaining 20%, then yes I’d see that as probable too.
(I am experiencing cognitive dissonance with the video and need to think before I respond more to that!)
LaR,
Yes, that’s what I meant that more fit, handsome/beautiful, skillful lovers would get more LE reciprocation, and those “smaller fish” just have to take whatever crumbs is left.
The video has triggered a chain of dark reactions in me, and my mind goes not only back to some bleak memories, but the cultures of the both world, eg. How do they deal with sympathy/kindness and rescue complexity vs. mental health? How do they deal with fickleness vs. loyalty of human relationship? And then that utterly uncontrollable Glimmer & selfishness, etc… the story is so provocative!
I just remembered and wonder what happened to that poster/painter named, “scribbled” who has a poet LO who was going to publish a book of her poems inspired by him or their shared LE. He might have felt the similar thing which the woman in the short film does….
We are so flawed as a human race, aren’t we?
Snow,
I think I’m struggling with two things about the film.
The first is how they’ve very cleverly flipped the gender roles here, and the guy is the ‘damsel’. The fact that I can’t properly wrap my head around it says more about me / my Western ‘training’ than about the film, as I know really that there are loads of male damsels out there. You have probably encountered several.
But I also can’t get my head around his behaviour. If she is his muse / inspiration and “the only woman I say I love you to”, why does he mess her around and not just get together with her? Silly man! I don’t get why he plays her like this.
‘”How do they deal with sympathy/kindness and rescue complexity vs. mental health?”
Please expand if you’d like to! You mean the woman in the film needs to walk away for her own mental health but struggles to do it because she feels she has to rescue him?
LaR,
“The fact that I can’t properly wrap my head around it says more about me / my Western ‘training’ than about the film, as I know really that there are loads of male damsels out there. You have probably encountered several.“
COO men are much more male-chauvinistic and far less romantic and chivalrous riding the damsel-rescue horses around maidens or ladies. So in generally speaking by comparison, the West has far more male damsels in stress in my eyes, which I liked because Macho guys of both East and West are unbearable — I got a lot of masculine energy myself so often clashed with them, such as Narc LO3.
In both LE4/SO and LE5, I was a rescuer 🎠 , much a bigger one 🎠🎠 in the latter. In the former, at least SO loved me, but not the feminine LO5 who used me twice (to run away from his psychological or romantic troubles), before his marriage and after his divorce, aided by his lies of big and small, the buckets of his tears, deep talks, the saddened and vulnerable eyes)… a long, dark story not needed to tell here.
“But I also can’t get my head around his behaviour. If she is his muse / inspiration and “the only woman I say I love you to”, why does he mess her around and not just get together with her? Silly man! I don’t get why he plays her like this.”
From my understanding, the woman was/is in limerence with the man — her LO, who had some psychological issues. He mentally and physically needed/used her without true love or reciprocation for her. While in limerence, she went to “rescue” him with sex and inspiration, while simultaneously got some inspiration back for her own creativities.
But once the guy felt better, he left her for other women, so she stayed away. Then, the guy had his book completed or published (using their experiences?) Yet, he is not quite satisfied with his present life (w/ another girl?), so he attempted to hover her back for the fabulous sex(?) While asked what he was doing in the past and why it was not her that he’d chosen, he said it was just friendship with her. So the woman broke down in tears, confessing she was/is madly in love with him and can’t stay in friendship with him.
Seeing he is still NOT in love/limerence with her evidently, but seemingly just wants her in his life as a “sex toy”, she ran back to her car in tears, feeling very hurt …
“You mean the woman in the film needs to walk away for her own mental health but struggles to do it because she feels she has to rescue him?”
It’s not that she feels she has to, but her LE is pushing her to want so. She already knew that his “friendship” hurt him horribly due to her LE (or course, no such term used in the film). She knows she’s get the same hurt all over again if she goes back to him.
General speaking, good/loyal friends want to help each other and usually do, as long as romance is not involved. In COO or Buddhistic traditions, close friends would help you with anything they have, but would never go to bed with you, even if you’re about to die — Out of Question! Rarely existed such a thing as sympathy sex or FWB, EA was/is unheard of; the only morality boundary is physical intimacy. So good friends will give you a lot of their time and attention without ever being accused of an EA. SOs worry sometimes, but most can deal with it in peace.
But as we’ve learned from LwL, friendship with insecure, vulnerable, or damsel LO could back fire at kind and sympathetic “limerents, if they’re unaware or foggy headed about the LE dynamic. The challenging becomes, can limerents “heartlessly”, firmly walk away from damsel LO while watching him or her in “suffering”❓
I couldn’t, so had my really bitter “lessons”. Thanks for ET’s landing, despite he turned out to be a LE sensor and a Western damsel rescuer 🎠 as well…. You see, none of us could escape being an “ordinary” human being, ‘round n ‘round 🎠 🎪
There is an old post of yours I did not respond previously, and I don’t know where it is now. What I wanted to say is that I think your LO knows your feelings for her… if she tried to get closer when you backed up and then backed up when you got “closer”…. Most women are very sensitive to amorous attention (even from the same sex), subtle or not; everyone’s eyes talk….
Snow,
I will make this a quick reply just on the last bit, for now, though will come back to the rest (by the way, I now think our interpretations of the film are similar, although it is a real ‘thinker’ and as I said, shows a very dark side of limerence).
I think the idea that my LO does know (“eyes talk” etc.) is very reasonable and is the most likely one. I have thought (and said here) for a while that I see it as nearly impossible that I haven’t leaked it.
But how do you connect that to the push-pull ‘dance’ part of her behaviours I have described? If she knows, then I feel like she must want one thing or the other – a wish that I didn’t have the feelings (which would mean she’d pull away) or glad that I do (which would mean she’d push closer). I know the fact I am with SO complicates all this a million times over, for her as well as me. But the alternation between the push and pull is harder to square. And if I could come up with an explanation to square it in my mind, it would probably settle me down a lot. Do you think it is like a ‘sensor’ thing like you had with E.T. where the LO likes the attention but gets uncomfortable with confronting any truths beyond that?
LaR,
“I know the fact I am with SO complicates all this a million times over, for her as well as me. “
Because of SO and both of your moral senses, none of you want to poke the hole on the thin paper/film between you.
“But the alternation between the push and pull is harder to square. “
I did square. However, my main semi-conscious goal was to get a surrogate parent, to meet the unmet needs from my childhood and all my previous romantic relationship. As I told Marcia once, I truly thought it was safe just to talk with a married man, since he’s bound not to cross the line.
“And if I could come up with an explanation to square it in my mind, it would probably settle me down a lot. “
If in your shoe, I’d ask myself that question repeatedly, “with a SO, with most of things seemingly going well in my work and person life, what do I really want or desire from her?” “Can I get it from elsewhere?” “If not, why not?” No need to answer me here.
“Do you think it is like a ‘sensor’ thing like you had with E.T. where the LO likes the attention but gets uncomfortable with confronting any truths beyond that?”
It certainly could be, but I think it normally gets uncomfortable on the side with bigger LE barriers. From DrL’s article, I understand that love/LE Sensors, due to their deep/hidden insecure issues, could not help want, go after, extract admiration, adoration, involuntary amorous gaze/glance from others and in-person interactions with them, both sex included. They could be in “limerence”with your or others’ limerencing for them; Your limerence, not YOU, is their LO. Unless you pull yourself away, they may never let go off your adoring eyes as long as no realistic harms on both sides.
The term “Sensor” so well captures one type of insecure people who are not a full-blown narcissist and who could be quite nice, helpful, positive (on surface) and people-pleasing. The way to spot them, I think, is to observe how they interact with others; how they describe/“gossip about” others; how they reveal their vulnerabilities to you — deep or superficial; how they defend themselves if an error or a misunderstanding is pointed at them….
Needless to say, most Sensors would not admit they are a Sensor, which points at their vanity, insecurity, or some other issues deep inside them. This was just my experience that may not apply to your case or anyone else’s.
LaR,
Other hypothetical questions to ask yourself: if your SO suddenly departs from your life —
1. Would you date your LO and think about marrying her? Why or why not?
2. If yes, why did not you feel this way for the previous 10 years?
3. If not, what would be reasons? What might be the biggest barrier?
4. Do you know all your LO’s authentic vulnerabilities, fears, insecurities, quirks? Has she ever cried in front of you? And you her?
5. What parts of you she would, or you would want her to, appreciate, admire/adore or love most?
Now, your SO is back —
6. Is your SO providing the above ⬆️ ❓Why or why not?
7. Whose provisions (different or similar) you would want and appreciate more? Why?
8. Has your SO inspired your productivities and creativity as LO did? Any Apollo/Muse seeding/planting from her?
Please don’t feel any obligation to answer me here…
Snow,
Thanks for all the thought and no doubt also time you have taken with those answers.
I’ll copy and paste all those questions into another document so I can ponder them im quiet moments. Sometimes I think the obvious answers that come into my brain straight away aren’t the full/best answers.
I was/am really interested in one point you made a few messages back:
“I think your LO knows your feelings for her… if she tried to get closer when you backed up and then backed up when you got closer”
Why do you think that’s evidence she knows? And (more) why BOTH the push and pull *on her side* if she does know?
Please do say if you’ve already answered this question as much as you can and I’ll respect that. But I thought I’d check, as a lot in your last replies seems to prompt me more to think about why *I* push and pull. That’s really valuable to work on, but I already know a lot of why on my own side.
Maybe though your answer to the rest is contained in:
“Because of SO and both of your moral senses, none of you want to poke the hole on the thin paper/film between you.”
I believe it, hugely – am just still trying to figure out why that creates BOTH push and pull from LO.
Hope the day treats you gently, and I will hope the same for me!
Snow,
As a follow on, I want to thank you again for frequently dialoguing different bits of this out with me at the moment. It’s very valuable to have this outlet. And please don’t feel rushed to reply to anything of mine – as I know it must be a time hoover. There are bits on your LE side of things that I haven’t managed to respond properly to yet. But in short for now, I continue to find it impressive how you have used the whole ET and prior LE experiences for learning and growth.
I had a very precise one of those ‘corrective’ dreams about my LE last night. It was kind of a double level one. Our messaging on LwL (I saw your main reply before sleeping) got me ruminating on the ‘pull away’ side. The corrective dream gave me a strong ‘push’ side first. But within the dream itself, I responded too hard to the ‘push’ side and then got a sobering ‘pull’ side later in the same dream! It is like my subconscious is trying to calibrate my equilibrium very exactly.
LaR, if you don’t mind, I will jump in. You seem to be pondering this a lot lately: “I think your LO knows your feelings for her… if she tried to get closer when you backed up and then backed up when you got closer”.
I know you know what the word is for that (“futile!”). But putting that aside… We as humans are not always logical, we do not always have a plan for how we act, a plan that we strictly follow. We often don’t know what we want. Take something away from us – and we want it more. (As an aside: I’ve been experiencing this lately 😕) Even if we didn’t really want it in the first place, we sure as hell want it now. I don’t think you have to be “dodgy” or “insecure” to act like that, or to like attention. I think that’s just human, and if you (collective you) don’t admit to that for yourself, I think you are fooling yourself. It takes self-awareness and discipline to always maintain composure when faced with temptation (enjoying the attention from someone for instance) and not everyone is up to that.
With your LO, perhaps she has her own parameters for what level of attention she likes (and it surely varies upon her mood). When it gets a bit too much for her (maybe because she really doesn’t want anything resembling an EA), she backs off. Just my speculation, you can do what you want with it, as always. 😊
Also, I concur with something Snow said earlier – many of us can read interest from someone’s eyes easily. Some just light up when they see you. And I’m always afraid my eyes give me away…
Thank you Trifles, I always appreciate how you put stuff so frankly. You nailed it. Everything you have said is very logical and nothing I hadn’t said to myself when I had got into clearer headspace. Lately I have got myself back into a bit of a funk about it as you can tell (I partly know why) and perhaps just needed to hear it from someone else at this point.
So thanks for stepping in!
Re your ‘aside’ about yourself – don’t answer if you’d rather not but is the thing that you’re having to do without, and missing, connected to xLO or TO? Would be great to know how your situation is going but I know writing about it can be triggering, so up to you. I’m thinking about easing up on how much I rely on LwL for a while, whilst I get my house back in order (not totally leaving though) because looking at it / writing can perpetuate my focus on limerence!
Sorry to hear that there’s been a development that has led you back down the road to rumination. 😞 But it’s good that you know the reason, and you will soon circle along (the snail’s shell metaphor someone used on here) to a better place. Please keep posting if you can handle it. Try not to worry too much about what others think (I know I think about it too much!) But it helps me to post here, especially when I don’t have my house in order!
Re: your question… It’s not about xLO anymore. In fact I was going to check a 24-hour social media update of his a couple days ago, but I forgot! I think that’s a good sign. And his updates are boring anyway. 😉 But TO… And maybe this will help you. We are doing a bit of a dance. And I know why we are doing it. I’m lonely (well, so is he) and he’s tempted. 🙈 We enjoy each other’s attention, and we’ve been building a bond. I’ve been frustrated with something in “real life” lately so I need his attention even more. But then TO frustrates me… He is so nice and he wears his heart on his sleeve, but the whole thing is… futile! So unlike you I’m not wondering why the push and pull, but regardless there’s no good solution. I would like a story with a nice clear narrative arch …but such is life! I will just have to try to live with it. Sometimes I even toy with the idea of giving up the friendship but I know I couldn’t do it. (Don’t tell me, I know I sound limerent now, but it ebbs and flows along with my moods.)
Now read the above and imagine I’m your LO! 😄 Like I said, our minds are complicated things and not much of what we (I) think or do is logical! 😂
Hi Trifles,
I will definitely keep posting! I might just have to scale back a little because to keep it from directing my focus away from time with SO (more than the LE already does), I tend to update here late night or early morning, which bookends my day with thoughts of limerence/my LE. But I am not going anywhere – I need this community too much.
You have really been so helpful to me, before now and this time, so thank you. I think, as I have said before, that your personality has quite a bit in common with my LO’s, so when you give a perspective like you just have (even if it is wrong based on my partial information, which btw I don’t think it is), then it helps me to hear a quite likely scenario of what she might think / how she might act, without doing the unquestionable thing of having it out with her (‘slamming the door on the way out’, as you once put it). I hope that doesn’t sound weird! Despite the ‘futile’ bit, the push-pull cycles are very logical and predictable, WHEN I can turn my logical (T) brain to it. Occasionally the F side just bundles in uninvited and takes over, like at the moment. I believe you’ve nailed it in what you’ve said though, and it’s nothing I can’t reinforce to myself.
“We enjoy each other’s attention, and we’ve been building a bond. I’ve been frustrated with something in “real life” lately so I need his attention even more. But then TO frustrates me… He is so nice and he wears his heart on his sleeve, but the whole thing is… futile!”
Can I ask – *why* is it futile in your case, roughly speaking? I mean I can see why it is in mine, but why in yours? This just sounds like a nice blossoming thing between the two of you. But is SO still in his life and that’s what creates futility? (Again, no need to answer if you don’t want)
“Sometimes I even toy with the idea of giving up the friendship but I know I couldn’t do it”
I got you loud and clear here.
@Snow
Trifles’ posts in complement with yours last night seem to have steered me back towards the light – so please no need to respond more to my maybe repeated questions if you’re busy or feel you have answered them already.
LaR, I understand not wanting to bookend your days with thoughts of limerence, even if it is just LwL. What I think about last thing at night is what haunts my dreams. So maybe start by trying to limit the late nights (on LwL) and see if that helps? (That seems to be my solution for everything! 😉)
“Can I ask – *why* is it futile in your case, roughly speaking?”
Let me count the ways… 😉 Yes, he’s still in denial that their relationship is over. And I have to let him be there (in denial). In fact I agreed to let him(!) Besides that, there’s the distance, so if we wanted to meet it would require quite a bit of planning and travel. Then, I’m completely wrong for him – he needs someone with more E and F, not a wife 2.0. I would probably just break his heart, especially when you add the fact that I’m not really looking for a LTR with anyone (which of course he also knows would not be possible due to the distance anyway!).
And thank you, yes, it is a nice blossoming thing, even though I must sound cynical sometimes!
“I hope that doesn’t sound weird!” Not at all! I’m happy to help. 😊 And I think “the F-side taking over” is quite common and understandable for limerents! We interpret things the way we wish they were.
This might be dangerous, but I’ll give you my take on your LO… Brace yourself and take with a grain of salt. 😬 I’m jumping to conclusions here. She likes you, in fact, she really likes you. She might want you also, at least off and on. But I wouldn’t get too concerned about that, I (for example) entertain thoughts about lots of people and it doesn’t have to mean anything! 😉 And this I can’t really tell you without seeing how she is around you. But it’s easy and safe for her to entertain the thought because she knows nothing will ever happen, she won’t have to follow through.
That said, she doesn’t necessarily want a LTR with you (of course your SO plays a part, but even without SO, there could be reasons why she doesn’t want a LTR, see my thoughts above).
…I hope this didn’t encourage your limerence!
Trifles,
Yeah, I remember you once saying that a line in the sand with TO was ‘no late night texts’! (Thankfully that isn’t one that I slip up on!)
“Let me count the ways… 😉”
From what you’ve said, I think you are doing a sensible thing trying to maintain some boundary and just let it blossom for what it is. I think if any of these reasons are fully true: the distance completely rules it out; it is not really what you want (even just as ‘fun’ rather than monogamous LTR); or if any expectations are mismatched (one wants fun while the other wants more – not saying it is like this, just ‘if’), these are all pretty strong reasons to keep it as no more than MFFs. I see why the denial of his that you mentioned adds a whole other layer. The thing about him needing E, F etc – while you know the facts on the ground, I’d say never presume what a person wants or needs. I have said to you before that most of my LTRs have been S and F types but the past LOs (apart from those who became SOs) were more N and T types. Different horses for different courses, and all that.
But what has struck me talking to you at different times is that you seem more in control of your understanding, your behaviours and boundaries than most of us here at LwL. So I would say keep backing your own judgement on it.
“I’m jumping to conclusions here. She likes you, in fact, she really likes you. She might want you also, at least off and on. But I wouldn’t get too concerned about that, I (for example) entertain thoughts about lots of people and it doesn’t have to mean anything! 😉 And this I can’t really tell you without seeing how she is around you. But it’s easy and safe for her to entertain the thought because she knows nothing will ever happen, she won’t have to follow through. That said, she doesn’t necessarily want a LTR with you …I hope this didn’t encourage your limerence!”
LOL Trifles, what you trying to do to me?! How could a statement like that *possibly* ever encourage limerence?? 😂😂 I jest with you here – your take is again very helpful. The back and forth in that bit quoted above is just how LO’s mind moves around! It is probably easier for me to understand the push-pull dance with a understanding of the dynamics wrapped up like you’ve put it, than to carry the thought around that the feelings were all only ever one way. Like you say though – FUTILE FUTILE FUTILE!!! (let’s keep telling ourselves). That it all happens right under my nose, not at a distance, makes this tough going at times. I had a sustained decent spell of a more clear-minded understanding and will get myself back there. I then need to plan ahead so that next time I encounter the circumstances that caused me to go into rumination, I am more prepared to act purposefully.
A really beneficial side effect of the stressing over the push-pull has been to make me more grateful for SO, who doesn’t do that to me. Today I’ve just spent most of the day looking forward to seeing her this evening – not seen LO and not worried myself about trying to. We have to find these unexpected takeaways from things, don’t we?
Trifles, LaR,
Just want to add one quick note here: to maintain a healthy and fun balance between “Here and Now” and “Futility” in a relationship and in life is a highest challenge for us.
In the past, I often tipped from one side to the other, and regret later because either side alone was unfulfilling and led to substantial loneliness or despair — our tomorrows are counting down…
Trifles, I think your balance between two has been kept well, if you do not desire/long for more of impossibles or slip into another tLE via texting. Also finding additional self-reliant avenues to keep away that loneliness might be worth of effort to explore.
LaR, if you value your friendship of 10 years with LO, please think for her sake. If she has feelings for you, then it’s selfish and even cruel to pull-n-push; you have SO to return to every evening, what is she left with to go home alone? If she’s a Sensor, then you’ll have to ponder whether you want to fuel her vanity needs for your LE, not YOU.
Maybe there is a third possibility, but ultimately you are NOT available to pursue your LE goals, conscious or subconscious.
Your dream/Unconscious is helping you… Please don’t will anything
Snow,
Thank you for your extra words. No, I won’t force anything, and I don’t push and pull consciously on LO, it was more of a question of why she can seem to with me (Both you and Trifles have been very enlightening on it, and I now feel calmer and less ruminative). I think we are both as careful and mindful as we can be with the facts of the situation (you said it yourself, neurobiology is hard to fight) and with the ‘neither wants to poke the thin hole in the film’ consideration – very definitely true – that you said about.
That she knows my feelings was your guess, the Sensor thing was me speculating (but from your reply and reading DrL’s sensor post, I don’t really believe she is – doesn’t exhibit those behaviours) and the theory that she really likes me (though not committal at what level) was Trifles’ view.
It all leaves a lot of unknowns and what with the futility element, it feels best for me to work now towards going back to what was working well before – just try and calmly sit with the feelings and be purposeful in the actions.
I think what’s helpful is to remind myself that anything different happened in my head. Objectively, LO did nothing different to tons of times before – I just amped up the meaning loads in a rumination loop. I know why and it is a transient circumstance that has now passed.
LaR,
Yes, neurology is impossible to beat. If your DNA drive were and are subconsciously desiring her, then at some point earlier in LE, your pupil might have dilated upon seeing her in person — nothing you could/can do about it. We sensitive or observant women can see it….
It really doesn’t matter how much she likes you or not, it’s FUTILE in your case, which can cause heartaches on all (3) sides.
LaR, I’m glad you are amused and enlightened by my demonstration of the push-and-pull dance! 😁
Snow, you have a good point about the push and pull, but I think it’s involuntary, for us and for “them”. Just as I don’t think LaR is doing it on purpose, I don’t think his LO is either. Nor am I. The only way for me to stop the dance is to get off the dance floor. And like I said, I can’t do it. Oh well, I suppose I will tire myself out at some point!
LaR, that is a solid point of not assuming what someone else wants/needs. And I realised after putting it out there that me assuming what he wants would not fare well if you turned it around to your LO. I.e. that the reason she pulls away is that she’s assuming she’s not right for you. And here the limerent yells: “But she’s wrong! She’s exactly right for me! Now that that hurdle is out of the way…” 😉 But it could be the other way around, you are not what she’s looking for in the romantic sense, you’re just a good friend with some benefits (attention, etc). That’s also what I was kind of trying to say with the last “limerence-inducing” part: When push comes to shove, she just wouldn’t see you as romantic potential. (You can substitute my previous “LTR” with “romantic relationship”). As for TO, I wouldn’t want him to go through with me anything close to what he’s going through with her. And if I’m honest, he probably would not be able to hold my interest in the long run. 🙈
Also, just to be clear, when I speculated she might want you off and on (but might not seriously consider it a possibility), I meant purely in the physical sense. I’m sorry my dance was that much open to interpretation (but aren’t they all?!). And oh dear, am I digging myself a bigger hole? 😂
On another note, I think it’s great that you found another reason to appreciate your SO. Take the victory!
“LaR, I’m glad you are amused and enlightened by my demonstration of the push-and-pull dance! 😁”
It’s like the hokey cokey on acid, Trifles.
https://youtu.be/hAx6mYeC6pY?feature=shared
Ha, love it! That’s one of my favorites! She makes it look so easy…
Snow,
A couple of loose ends from this long chat that I just wanted to tie up here:
“you have SO to return to every evening, what is she (LO) left with to go home alone?”
“it’s FUTILE in your case, which can cause heartaches on all (3) sides.”
I didn’t want my previous replies to make it seem like I’m glib about either of these things, or give the impression that I don’t think them through. I do think about them, a lot. My brain has been turbulent as you know, but today very much calmer and in perspective.
Yes, LO goes home alone. She has no shortage of options if she doesn’t want that (has had several men chase her during last year but is choosy). Take the ‘futile’ part out, and she has the option of whether or not she wants to keep the friendship with me as it is, or not, against that backdrop. I don’t force or push that – it wouldn’t work to do that anyway.
I know the potential it has to mess badly with all three involved people. I know that in LO I am dealing with a precious person in her own right, and also with a precious long term friendship. I don’t take any of that lightly, even if I do sometimes write with a more humorous take on it to keep sane. She has trusted me with a lot of herself (more than I have seen her trust basically anyone else) and I don’t take that lightly either.
I feel like I have spent a year walking around with a bomb strapped to my chest that could easily detonate and blow 3 people up if I make a false move, even though I have had neither PA nor true EA (elements of EA I accept can be argued). I walk around so carefully not to set the bomb off until one day it is defused. Both of these people matter to me very much, and I don’t want to hurt either – so I take the maze I have got myself into seriously.
I will stop mixing my metaphors now!
LaR,
As a neutral bystander, I want to say that I wish your LO is NOT having romantic feelings for you privately, or that your “helpless” LE leakage has somehow sucked her into a EA for you. Because in either scenario, she’ll be the most suffering party, when your SO could be ignorantly “safe and sound” at home welcoming you.
“Yes, LO goes home alone. She has no shortage of options if she doesn’t want that (has had several men chase her during last year but is choosy).
As a LTR, that’s a cynical and selfish view to look at the dynamic 😱! If she’s already in LE or in secret romantic with you (pulled in by your “helpless” LE behaviors), the whole trains of available men would be “useless” to her!
“Take the ‘futile’ part out, and she has the option of whether or not she wants to keep the friendship with me as it is, or not, against that backdrop. I don’t force or push that – it wouldn’t work to do that anyway.”
Again, a very selfish and heartless view, that’s not how one’s Athena would talk! You think after a decade of good friendship with shared substantial creativities, either you could just walk away easily? How would you feel if you hear such words from her❓ My gosh, how do you define “friendship” personally or based on the Western culture? Is everyone out Soooo utterly for him/her self in the West❓
In delicate romance/LE or a profound friendship, no one is forcing or pushing anything from any side. But as Trifles puts, the pull-n-push of limerents are involuntary and subconscious. How do you know that she has NOT been pulled in by your LE behaviors, however subtle it may have been? And from your previous messages, we know you wanted so much to disclose and to have your LE affection reciprocated, which would only hurt her most, since you can’t give her substantial romance in your reality (unless you both are willing to go underground behind your SO.)
“I know that in LO I am dealing with a precious person in her own right, and also with a precious long term friendship. I don’t take any of that lightly, even if I do sometimes write with a more humorous take on it to keep sane.”
Then, don’t sound like one of dodgy LOs! From your words in the above post, I personally do NOT feel or think you take your LTR truly “precious”. She’d be better off being a Sensor to beat up your cynicism and selfishness!
“She has trusted me with a lot of herself (more than I have seen her trust basically anyone else) and I don’t take that lightly either.”
I’m very glad to hear that, that’s what a true friendship is supposed to be! Your words in the post did not convey your value.. In a long term, you’d be far more better off to treat her and her friendship more seriously than your temporary LE! Sit still and talk with your Athena and extract more nuggets of your friendship prior to LE.
“I feel like I have spent a year walking around with a bomb strapped to my chest that could easily detonate and blow 3 people up if I make a false move, even though I have had neither PA nor true EA (elements of EA I accept can be argued).”
That’s a consequence of having LE, just feel lucky that you haven’t got real cancer or something❗️
“I walk around so carefully not to set the bomb off until one day it is defused.”
You don’t know if your subconscious pull-n-push LE behavior has already set something off. Your only opinion, to my eyes, is to defuse the bomb; otherwise, one of other two are going to get hurt badly. Your own pain is inevitable, brought in by your Glimmer and LE, which maybe caused by something missing inside you. I think it’s beneficial to dig further in that direction, so to avoid future unforeseen LEs.
“Both of these people matter to me very much, and I don’t want to hurt either – so I take the maze I have got myself into seriously.”
Then, do whatever it takes to get out the maze by yourself or with a bunch of fellow ghosts in the same LE maze. I sincerely hope your LO has only genuiue friendship with/for you so far!
Please forgive my extreme undiplomatic communication skills. I try my best to say what I mean and rarely people/ghosts pleasing, as you can see here…. Don’t expect or assume that I’d automatically take your side just because your LO is not here, (I don’t know any of your (collective) LOs); fairness or kindness has to be applied to all parties — one essence of Buddhism.
Snow, LaR
I think , Snow, you are being
too hard on LaR.
What you see here is pure limerence- he‘s got a picture of his LO in his head that doesn’t match reality (or does, who knows, but he doesn’t take into account that it might not). We limerents see LOs only in relation to ourselves and how we suffer through them.
It’s not LaR who is selfish, Limerence in itself is selfish and distorts the view of the other person.
Snow, you are right in your perception that he is unfair in his view of her „freedom“ and independence to choose or walk away. It could still be that way, but it’s also very possible that your view is right. She is the one without SO to go home to, and as she‘s a human being, she‘s bound to have feelings, as a friend or otherwise, and it’s not right to give her the role of someone who cannot be hurt because she could walk away at any moment.
Still, it is the essence of limerence to think in these ways, and that’s exactly what we should try to overcome-to try and see LO as a fellow human who doesn’t know about our thoughts, who is as vulnerable as us, who can be changing their mind or being hurt like us.
But the thing is, it’s very hard to get to that stage, it needs constant reminding and adjusting, and when one achieves it, one is most probably out of limerence, I’d say.
LAR isn’t cynical or heartless, he’s limerent, that’s all, cut him some slack!
That’s why we are here, we all. I make the same mistake as LaR often, to assume something about LO.
We do it subconsciously, to tell ourselves that it’s ok what we are doing, or to put the blame on them , or to free ourselves from them. It’s always about us, and it’s the blindness of limerence.
Also, it could also be true that his LO is as independent as he thinks, that she is someone who just hasn’t decided between men and who doesn’t cherish this friendship that much. Who knows.
Hi again,
I just read LaRs post again (sorry, I often make the mistake of answering too quickly without rereading properly) and I have to say, I don’t quite understand the strong reaction of Snow. LAR is only describing one side of his LO‘s state of being single. Of course he should take to heart that she could suffer from limerence too and most likely takes this friendship very seriously. But he‘s also nowhere saying that this isn’t the case, he‘s just highlighting her freedom to choose, maybe without taking into account that she might be feeling herself a „victim“ of his push-and-pull limerent dynamics too, and that it might be worse for her because she has no SO-fallback, cynically spoken.
But nowhere does he deny this option either.
I feel that you should moderate your language a bit, Snow. I know I‘m not a moderator here and I’ll back out after this post, but to accuse someone of being selfish and cynical and heartless isn’t „undiplomatic“, it’s plain insulting. He might not mind, but I do.
Sorry for that, I’m gone here now.
Mila,
I’m very grateful for your responses and contributions (here and always), so don’t worry about it on my account.
I wanted to take a bit longer on my response, because it might need some lengthy prose to explain my view properly, but I am going to try and finish that off and post it now, or otherwise this risks being a situation where across my working day today, other people in the LwL community end up talking out my LE without my own voice featuring in it.
Your interpretation of my words, Mila, especially in your second message, is pretty accurate. Thank you. I shall explain more in a reply to Snow.
Snow,
My LO is the only one who could tell us her position. So, in this response, I don’t claim I can speak for how she feels. I see a partial picture of that only. I’m aware, then, that what follows is just one of two points of view from the involved actors in the situation, and that I don’t have access to the other. Please accept that caveat to all I will now say.
I do not mind what side you take – I am a person very open to constructive criticism. However, the point is, there is no argument on which to ‘side’ between me and LO. In the decade of knowing her, a situation between us has never arisen where our mutual friends needed to take a side. We (LO and I) were reflecting very recently on this very point – we have never had an argument that we haven’t resolved easily between us. It’s just one of the many wonderful things about a very wonderful friendship. I get that that she will have a side of the LE story that’s different to mine – but there is not any conflict or disagreement between she and I about it that has ever been expressed.
Your intuition in response to things I’ve written in the past has been pretty spot on, Snow. Often you can see hidden clues to what I really mean and respond well to them. Respectfully, this time you have got a lot wrong, which could also falsely paint me in a bad light with other LwL readers and writers.
Please can you tell me what exactly in my previous words – from the last message – or any ever on LwL – has caused you to move to the ideas:
1. that I might be considering, on any *realistic* level (not hypothetical distant future speculation), ending the friendship with LO
2. that I am selfish, cynical or conform to some ‘Western’ idea of being out for myself?
3. that I may have tried to suck in LO to having feelings of more than friendship for me?
4. That I do not regard it as a precious friendship?
If you were angry with me on behalf of SO, I’d understand. If I deserve reproach from any woman about my ways in the last 18 months, it is her, or on her behalf. I have done my best with the circumstances I have had, but I’ve been emotionally distracted by LO/LE a lot of the time, and never provided SO with a truthful account of why. She has the right to be angry with me if anyone. A criticism such as the “I feel sorry for your wife” recently exchanged between two other posters, would be a reasonable one.
But anger on LO’s behalf? That I don’t understand, and feel you must have interpreted something I’ve said, very differently to the way I meant it, to lead you suddenly to expressing that. Until 3 days ago after discussing the short film, you had never said a single thing that suggested you thought I had treated LO badly – what’s changed?
Since coming to LwL, I have had just one line that runs through my posts like blood: “I want to end my LE while keeping the friendship intact / lose the limerence without losing the person (LO)”. I have never once deviated from that, either in what I have written or in what my mind tells me. I did some hypothetical speculation (in reply to posts from Mila and Bewitched about the evolution of relations with their LOs) a while back, but made it clear that was all it was. I am so certain that *both* LO and I need our friendship that I talk myself into the possibility it can all somehow work, this despite DrL’s and most commenters’ voices repeatedly telling us limerents that we can’t be authentic friends with an LO. I keep convincing myself that I am somehow a special case of being able to make this work, because I can’t stand to let her go. There you have it, that’s me laid bare.
Why do I think that? I really have had few friends ever like LO, who get me and accept me and root for me on such a fundamental human level. This is not a false limerent view but one formed over ten years. I don’t and can’t know if LO would say the same thing the other way round, but as far as either of us has ever tested those conversational boundaries, she has said things to indicate it. LO has quite significant attachment difficulties (with men especially, but with people in general), and negative feelings about herself, that have only become fully clear to me over a long time. What have I done about that? Been a safe and consistent harbour for her to form a stable attachment with a man and explore some of that, as well as having some fun times along the way. I didn’t do that in a calculating way, but in a real and genuine way that she meant something to her and to me. Within those conversations have been lots of parts about her feelings for and from other men, past and present, which I have always accepted and let her discuss, both when not limerent and when limerent.
I guess it is nearly inevitable that a male-female friendship this strong, or ‘nurturing’, ‘energising’, ‘accepting’, ‘valuable’ and ‘committed to mutual growth’ (to use LO’s own words at different times to describe it) could escalate for one or both parties into confusion over whether the deep feelings mean anything more. I did not ask for that to happen on my side, but I am culpable for letting those feelings (above friendship) get further for sure – admitted here before. Since it did happen, I have been walking a fine line where separation of the friendship from my limerence is very tough. But I have still tried to do it. I don’t know if she walks that line with me or if my limerent brain sees reciprocation where there is only friendship (here we are back at the ‘futile’ part). I am open that it may be either way and that I will never get to know in words.
What I do know is that I have not done anything to intentionally suck her in to thinking it is more than friendship. I’ve never verbalised or consciously acted a single thing that indicates more intent than friendship – I’ve held the lot back despite feeling it so strongly (I know I have to / it is the decent thing to do). I totally acknowledge eye and body language type leakage have happened, outside my control. I can’t help that side and whether she has spotted it and been affected by it, but again I don’t know either way. The only way I could prevent that is to not see her – hypothetically. I did a thing last week I have never done before – cancelled a commitment with her because I knew I would leak too much that day and it would send too many confusing signals (I have seen her since and we’re all good). This is how much I think of LO and put her first – *all* I needed at that exact moment in time was her company, and I took that prospect away because I knew it was unkind of me to seek it at that time. I also then avoided sending detailed texts that could be ambiguous, even though she kept texting me (just kept the responses light and factual).
Does any of this show you how precious LO is to me as a friend, and how seriously I take responsibility for my part in keeping that friendship? When I say she has a choice in that, or in whether she goes for other romantic relationships, I get how that could translate badly in writing, but I just mean to say I have never tried to force her to spend time with me or put me before other people or her own happiness. It is a facet of her personality that I love, that she NEVER does anything due to force anyway (an NTP just won’t). What LO does, LO does entirely of her volition. She is a strong and independent-minded woman. It is an amazing trait and one she has taught me to do more of for myself too. I know for a fact she has other interest from men and the reasons she gives me for not acting on it. So I do not pluck these statements out of the air that she has choices. I understand what you mean that I could (although it is not definite) constrain those choices in ways I am not aware of.
Re disclosure, I said the only reason I’d ever disclose was if I felt I had to go NC for the sake of the three involved actors. Only with disclosure would NC be a fair action. It has never come to that and disclosure, and disclosure in any other circumstances would be pure selfishness. If I disclosed, it leaves it open to her to interpret that everything I have done in the friendship in the last 18 months had an ulterior motive, and could make her question if this attachment is real. That would not be correct – despite my limerent feelings, I have tried to do nothing else than maintain the friendship as close as it was before their time, and do the right thing by everyone involved.
I do think you have been harsh on me Snow, without establishing the facts behind my statements, in agreement with what Mila said. That’s your prerogative, though, if it’s how you feel and what you want to do. The important thing to me is that I understand this situation in my own head and can rest at night knowing I’m doing the best I can for all the involved parties. And I can do that.
“I really have had few friends ever like LO, who get me and accept me and root for me on such a fundamental human level.”
LaR, you didn’t need to explain yourself to us (we get you), but thank you for doing so in such an eloquent way! The above is beautifully said. I know the common goal in all our replies should be to beat the beast of limerence in all ways (with preference given to NC). But who would want to deny anyone what you describe?
As you might guess, I’m partial because I feel this describes myself and TO. But also, being the cynic that I am, I wonder: would he be so enthusiastic about rooting for me if he had no romantic interest? I know this opens up a whole new can of worms for you/other limerents to consider. But perhaps the answer to that is also: “Futile!” Why not just accept the rooting and unconditional support and enjoy what is presented in the friendship without worrying about what lies beneath? (I’m talking to myself here. – And how am I in such a philosophical mood today??)
Also, I think many of the topics on LwL are such that they trigger a lot of emotions and reactions in us. And we should read the replies in this context. Our experiences (and prejudices that are shaped by them) affect the stance we take, who we sympathize with, and how we react to seemingly (to others) neutral words.
Trifles,
“I know this opens up a whole new can of worms for you/other limerents to consider. But perhaps the answer to that is also: “Futile!”
YES TRIFLES!!! We are all students and all learning in this place.
“Why not just accept the rooting and unconditional support and enjoy what is presented in the friendship without worrying about what lies beneath?”
I could make an awful joke here about a potential double meaning of ‘rooting’ – yes, my word in the first place. But I won’t. Oh dear, I just did. Jokes aside – if you can reach this place for yourself, I would do. But the different (to mine) barriers make this a different scenario. I have confidence in you to figure this out and find what is purposeful. For me, this place is where I want to get back to, and what I am working on.
“Also, I think many of the topics on LwL are such that they trigger a lot of emotions and reactions in us. And we should read the replies in this context.”
Yes, I thought about that too. Can you see (even though you only have the partial information that I choose to give) that I’m not out to hurt my LO? It is the last thing I want, and I wouldn’t take any action that I thought would do it. But I am aware there is a level of what I’m aware of and in control of, and a levels of what I am not aware of and not in control of. This creates a difference, potentially, between intentional and non-intentional harm I could cause. The intentional part, definitely not. The unintentional part – well, I could write libraries on how much I think about the effect of mine and others’ actions on LO, how I try to ‘read the room’ about what I get in response, and react accordingly. I can’t control what I don’t know. I know you are not saying I can, though.
I’m grateful, Trifles, for all of the understanding you’ve shown about my situation. You didn’t have to. I can absolutely see why your TO likes having you in his life. In relation to your posts with VL earlier, I think perhaps your TO is in a strong denial phase about his SO that will take a fair bit of time to work through. If you can continue to calmly play a role in that without it affecting yourself negatively, then please do. He will appreciate that more than you can know, and – although it is dangerous to predict at a distance – I feel he is unlikely to suddenly drop you from his life (unless you want it), in the same way I won’t drop my LO.
Trifles,
Sorry, I realise I made an assumption in the above that your friend you mentioned to VL is your TO. Sincere apologies if that is a wrong assumption (I should have thought more), and please substitute any mentions of ‘TO’ in that last paragraph for ‘friend’ if that’s the case.
„Also, I think many of the topics on LwL are such that they trigger a lot of emotions and reactions in us. And we should read the replies in this context. Our experiences (and prejudices that are shaped by them) affect the stance we take, who we sympathize with, and how we react to seemingly (to others) neutral words.“
True. I do understand what triggered Snow, there can be read a certain smugness in these words „“Yes, LO goes home alone. She has no shortage of options if she doesn’t want that (has had several men chase her during last year but is choosy).“ and also the other passage she/you copied (as I’m also writing for you, Snow). It triggers me too a bit, but I still think the smugness is unintentional and also may be created in my mind by an unfortunate choice of words.
I just think that there should be boundaries as to what we accuse us here of, since we are all in the same glass house and shouldn’t throw stones, on account of mere words and limerence-blindness, and I think it’s generally in any discussion not right to insult each other, regardless if we are right or wrong, or regardless of the emotion that gripped us.
Mila,
Does my long reply clarify to you that I did not mean smugness in those words, even if I can see how there is an available reading of them like that?
I don’t always have the time to phrase everything perfectly. I do it squeezed into small slots against a backdrop of a busy working life, trying to minimise the effect of limerence (including LwL use) on SO, etc etc. You must be the same, I see how fast you often are to reply. We all get our words a bit wrong sometimes.
I would ask that anyone here who wishes to reflect on my LE, my conduct within it, and make judgements on my character as a result, does so by considering the range of posts I have made since May this year, and what runs constant in their content, not just this one post. I am not in the least bit smug about my LE. I know, Mila, that you are not saying that I am – you were first to rush to my defence but understandly want to be balanced. Anyway, there it is.
LaR, re: ‘intentional and non-intentional harm’ – that got a little deep for me, but I think I can draw this back to my point about appreciating the friendship for what is shown on the surface instead of always questioning what lies beneath. We can’t know! And we are responsible adults who can bring up issues that vex us. Your LO has agency, if she notices that her friendship with you is holding her back and she doesn’t want it to, she’s able to take action. You don’t have to do that for her – like we talked before about assuming what someone else wants/needs. Believe in your own words. 😉
And yeah, I was also questioning myself with the repeated use of ‘root’, but hey, it’s your word!
As for believing in your good intentions toward LO – I think we have gotten a good idea of your intentions based on your posts. I wouldn’t think a couple of vague-ish words would change that. Though I do admit that I also sometimes jump on contradictions or logical errors that I spot in others’ thinking. It’s the joy of debating (for me (T), not making assumptions about others)…
And thanks, I know he is unlikely to suddenly drop me. Even though I did fear that at first – because it would be easy to, considering the long distance nature of our friendship. This might be a ‘sore point’/trigger for me, because I have certainly ‘dropped’ long-distance friends before and have been dropped as well. (It’s often an organic drifting apart but sometimes it appears sudden.)
This also relates to our discussions on LwL – there is so much room for misinterpretation in text-based communication! In the beginning I was afraid that I would say one wrong thing and he would drop me based on that. Crazy, huh? 😉
Thank you also for your encouragement, it means a lot. 🤗 I have been calm and supportive to him, I have let him have his denial – because intellectually he ‘knows’ it is denial, even though emotionally he refuses to really know it. I just needed a place (LwL) to safely vent.
LaR,
no,no, I didn’t mean you were smug, I just wanted to point out that these words might sound smug.
They just sound as if they take a bit too granted that your LO is fine as she is and could do easily as she pleases, so it’s her responsibility if she still engages with you much. (I don’t say that’s what you meant! I exaggerate so you see what I mean).
To exaggerate further:
Imagine that your LO would be at least as limerent as you, also because of your leaking etc,being lonely and thus more prone to react on eye contact etc-
knowing that there’s no hope but still cannot shut the hope off completely, that she knows it holds her back and still cannot let it go , and for her it’s an existential struggle against loneliness, she knows you are lying in bed with SO every night, having a future with her, while her future seems barren because she cannot let go of you and be interested in more available men. Then she would be worse off than you basically, and your words about going home alone because being choosy etc would sound like a mockery to her.
Of course there’s a good chance that this dark scenario isn’t true.
But the other side of this single-married constellation might in fact look differently than you think, and that’s not shining through in these passages.
That was only an explanation for the „smugness“, otherwise
I don’t think at all that you make it easy for yourself or that you wouldn’t do your best for her. From what I know, you handle this very respectfully and with care, and not at all smug.
Also, me, ha, I think I’m much guiltier than you of using words that can be misinterpreted and also much more prone to assume things about my LO. I do it all the time. I‘m almost schizophrenic because I do it and then call myself back and take the opposite view etc.
(Or did, since I’m not doing it anymore, seemingly having passed the angry stage too and am now more capable of seeing LO in a neutral light.)
I wouldn’t have commented on your words myself at all, I just wanted to show where Snow might have been triggered.
If somebody would really scrutinize the stuff I wrote here in this site, oh my god, I would be found guilty of smugness, hypocrisy, aggression, whining, name it…
“Adam, I’m pulling your legs…”
Snow
Mila posted somewhere here on LwL not too long ago when helping me confront my “rescue complex” and the news of LO’s now much older gentleman friend; “what if she found somebody that is good to her and makes her happy. Wouldn’t that be great? That she doesn’t need to be rescued?” or something close to that.
And I thought “yes it would be great.” But then my immediate thought after that was “but that means she doesn’t need me anymore.” And there goes what triggered the whole limerent mess. What I struggle with is; what is difference between LO asking for help and my wife asking me for help? Why does one appeal more than the other?
It’s like when she would ask me “Adam can you help me with ….?” and I would be immediately available like the Billy Joel song “I don’t care what consequence it brings, I have been a fool for lesser things” was singing in my head. I don’t think it is so much the actual rescue complex as much as why do I seek it out in other women and not my wife?
” she knows you are lying in bed with SO every night”
Mila
I like this thought. I wonder how many married limerents LO’s might think this. And in what direction it pushes their behavior. Do they readily accept the direct attention they do get from their limerent because there is no real and present danger because the limerent is not going to end their marriage for them? Or does that make them feel uncomfortable with the direct attention their limerent gives them? I guess this query is much like Dr L writes; what would you do with that knowledge if you did have it?
Ha, seems like Mila and I fundamentally – and respectfully – disagree. 😉 I’m more in the position of LaR’s LO, and I say that she still has agency (even if she were limerent). But I do understand Mila’s points, all too well.
But this is all assumptions. We don’t know what others feel (possible limerence, etc), we just have to trust what they tell us. What if LaR were to take action based on the assumption that she is limerent, and retreated from their friendship? Would she be better off? That depends on factors he/we don’t know.
P.S. Anyone else tired of scrolling? 🙈
“Do they readily accept the direct attention they do get from their limerent because there is no real and present danger…”
Adam, that’s a good point, and one I was thinking of while reading VL’s comment. He said something along the lines of his LO at first seeming more forthcoming and then turning colder after he accidentally let slip that part about suspecting his friend was trying to set them up. (Correct me if I got that wrong, can’t be bothered to scroll 😉)
He thought she might have turned cold because she found out he was married. I instinctively thought the opposite: I assumed she knew at the start that he was married and was therefore more relaxed around him (knowing he wasn’t hitting on her because he’s married). And then later came the talk about being set up, and she realised he might be a ‘threat’ after all. 😯
Our perspectives are so different – especially when we wear our limerent glasses.
LaR, Mila
A quick response here —
1. We cannot tell all our realistic facts or behavior here, so only words and thoughts are aimed at discussion or debate. Like said in the past, I focus’s on points of views, not the speaker. If I didn’t care for LaR, I would not have spent so much time/energy chatting about this case.
2. I was angry at SOME WORDS, and THOUGHTS, not LaR as whole a person. Some thoughts regarding to friendship sound “selfish”, “cynical” and shocking to my COO ear. If LO is a friend, then he or she is a MFF, not merely an Object and deserves the similar weight of consideration as SO.
3. LO is a whole person, too. Good ones are rare! If this LO were not LaR’s LTR, then it would be different dynamic. There is vast differences between the West and COO how “precious” friends are treated even just in our mind.
4. Mila is right, that LE can take a lot of blames for our LE behaviors (even just in thoughts) that could hurt others, especially if LO is a LTR. Your list of incredible wishes for your LE-friend opened my eyes on this, since I never limerented for a friend.
5. Mila, you’re also right, following and talking about others’ LEs could trigger something inside us, whether resolved or not. The chats in the last few days have been triggering and upsetting me. (In addition to the deeply worried election here)
6. LaR, I apologize for my angry tone, but not my views. Please be assured that my different intakes or Stoic voice do not change my friendly attitude towards you as an empathetic ghost here and a someone representative of Western men with both liberal, conservative, and problematic stand… and sincere cares for other suffering LE ghosts here.
To be continued….
Trifles,
Nooo, I didn’t want to make a point😇
I actually don‘t think the scenario is really like that, and of course one has always agency (I hope I translate that in the right way) , I just wanted to show in which case LaRs words may be triggering, that’s all. Of course she‘s always still an adult, capable of acting/choosing etc, but I think you know what kind of scenario I was getting at. Still don’t think it’s the case here.
Also, I’m tired of scrolling too.
Adam,
my first LE was mutual but both with SOs. I think for me it was both and all when thinking of his SO: I was kind of jealous, but then felt guilty , but also was somehow glad she was there so we couldn’t act out our limerence etc
A nice bath of every possible emotion. Don’t want to feel that ever again.
Mila,
Your imagined scenario of LaR’s LO, in the similiar LE for LaR, was what in my mind when I wrote yesterday.
Of course, she could be very independent, strong, but we CANNOT choose our emotions particularly in LE. As bystanders, we could say what LaR initially said, but he, as a loyal, responsible LTR, cannot say or even think such “heartless” thing… Good loyal friends have sounding, caring responsibility for the precious friendship, don’t we?
I disagree with Trifles — no matter how strong or cool ones is, LE can mass up anyone’s mind and willpower, including Sir Judge! Don’t we all know what happened to us during our LE, what makes LaR’s LO different if she was/is in secret LE with him, after his unconscious pull-n-push? Based on him, she did pull-n-push, too, out of what?
“I instinctively thought the opposite: I assumed she knew at the start that he was married and was therefore more relaxed around him”
Trifles
I think that is why LO has only circled around once to talk to me, and that was only a few months after she left. The contrast with how warm and friendly and comforting she was when we worked together with the absolute NC, is that she was comfortable around me. She enjoyed the special treatment I gave her. But it lapsed a bit when she started seeing someone. Than when she left she had a man. And now a different one apparently. So I think she might have done things to keep my attention. And why she has never contacted me in over 2 years. She has a man’s attention. And apparently likes it. Far from the idealized woman I had in my head. But I guess that’s what it takes to get her out of my head.
“somehow glad she was there so we couldn’t act out our limerence”
Mila
Unfortunately sometimes the reason(s) that we pull back from the temptation isn’t always the right reason, but just the reason that we don’t give in.
(scroll, scroll, scroll)
@Adam “I guess this query is much like Dr L writes; what would you do with that knowledge if you did have it?”
Very brilliantly put.
@Snow
“Some thoughts regarding to friendship sound “selfish”, “cynical” and shocking to my COO ear.”
Please can you tell me exactly which words, if you don’t mind, so I can understand where you are coming from properly. Or is Mila correct about which part, in what she’s quoted above?
I don’t see her an an ‘object’. I use the term ‘LO’ very reluctantly to reference her, as that’s what the crowd understand here. She has a beautiful-sounding and unusual name and I only wish I could just use it!!
@Mila, @Trifles
No need to worry about the point of ‘disagreement’ between you. Mila, I understand your scenario was at the extreme end of how things *could* be, to help with understanding, not how you think there things are. The two perspectives that the two of you gave on how LO might be in that situation are both valid – this depends on bits of the situation you don’t know, LO as a person, etc etc etc. I appreciate what you both say to me. Both of you have made a lot of effort to understand and empathise with me throughout my time here. You are just giving me possibilities. Neither of yours is a scenario I can or should discount in how I behave. There are also tons of other scenarios, that don’t involve her being limerent or feeling any more than friendship for me. As I can’t find out, I have to keep every scenario in mind.
I don’t think endless debate on this issue will be helpful to me, or most of you. I looked very deep into my LO’s eyes today (not sought deliberately, it just happened naturally) and the very strong signal I got back is “everything is quite alright between us here, LaR”. I can and will exit this maze without hurting her, but only time can prove it. And, Snow, part of that for me involves acknowledging that I don’t and won’t take any action that is under my control to stand in the way of her pursuing other relationships, *should she want to* (I can’t offer that to her, and have never pretended I can). I have given her very neutral and agency-building guidance about another guy who has shown interest in her, despite feeling limerent for her myself at the time – just for example – this she deserves from me as a friend, if she asks me. I can accept that those particular words (the ones Mila and Trifles discussed with me) may not convey all that terribly well – we all make clumsy mistakes with words, but that does not mean that I am heartless, selfish or cyncical with respect to LO or the LE.
How the turntables. (Is that how the meme goes?)
Now that my kids are grown and don’t trick or treat I decided to hand out candy to the trick or treaters this year. But damn is candy expensive! Hopefully I’ll hand out most of it tonight. Happy Halloween LwL.
Thank you, Adam, I snatched a few pieces of your candies from LwL sky! 🍭🍬 Yummy!
My first trick or treater was a princess. Complete with satin glove and a tiara.
I’d like to share some of my own poems/extracts of poems here. I have a feeling they may help somebody struggling with emotions that feel too powerful to manage. This small selection sums up my own personal experience of limerence and traces feelings other people may well encounter on their limerent journeys…
The first poem is about hope:
Tonight, I need your arms around me.
That is all – don’t ask me why.
Love has made a mockery
Of wiser souls than yours truly.
Passion’s part of human nature,
Yet none can cage or tame the bird.
Princes vanish in her forests
And knights succumb. Have you heard?
Don’t release me until sun
Throws cruel light against eyes.
Without you, darling, life feels empty –
Don’t deny me Paradise!
The second poem is about despair:
Dude, if you don’t fancy me,
Be upfront, speak plain.
Can you see beating round the bush
Only prolongs the pain?
I’m sorry if my moods of late
Have been “morose” and “intense”.
Had you been clear from the get-go
We could have avoided this mess.
No day in life is so golden
As when Passion first sings
And no night so miserable
As when that bird takes wing.
The third poem (extract) is about facing reality:
Boy, I will never take your hand.
Boy, I will never be your bride.
Boy, I will never wear your ring
Or stand triumphant by your side.
Boy, I will never brush your lips.
Boy, I will never graze your bones.
Boy, I will never bear your child,
The heir to Egypt’s ancient throne.
Boy, I renounce my love for you
Because such love is a cursed thing,
Self-flagellation on steroids,
An addiction to suffering.
Boy, I renounce my love for you
Because you’ll never love me back.
At long last, I can see the truth
And acknowledge distressing facts.
The final poem (extract) is about letting go:
I hope she makes you happy, bro.
I hope she seldom makes you mad.
I hope she never makes you feel
As you made me feel. Crazy sad.
The chains of lust you wrapped tightly
Around my heart have turned to dust.
I know what side my bread’s buttered
And a man must do what a man must.
Go to her – she is your lover.
Go to her – she is your song.
She is the present and the future
Whereas I’ve tied you to the past too long.
Go to her – she’s in full glory.
Go to her – her belly swells.
Baby Boy, I’ve always loved you.
Beautiful Man, go well*, farewell.
*”Go well” means goodbye in South African English. During my limerence episode, my high school English class was studying a famous South African novel.
L.E.
I’m afraid I’m entangled in another triangle. A neglected (don’t think it’s an actual stray) female cat has been coming to me when I’m out on the porch. She seems to be attention starved and hungry. So I put food and water on the porch and pet her when she wants me to. And now our own female cat won’t let me near her and hisses at the other cat if she sees her. Our cat won’t let me pet and always goes to Momma and looks at me with judging eyes. I guess I’ll never learn huh? 🙂
That’s brilliant Adam. Could be a hard road to NC there.
My recommendation is try to get the cat and take it to a non-kill shelter. It might have a chip that can locate the owner. If it does have an owner, a shelter would be the first place the owner would look.
When our daughter moved out, she took her 2 cats with her. I went to the shelter and got a new cat, a grumpy 8 yr old. When my daughter moved back, our new cat didn’t take to them. The only person the new cat seems to like is my wife although it has no problem jumping on the table and whining for a handout from me.
Yeah you asked for it when you put food and water out. Now she won’t leave.. Have fun with that.. 😄😅😆
Cat update. While I was on the porch this morning before my doctor’s appointment our cat wanted out. She found her favorite spot to lay. And then here comes the neighborhood cat. Our cat was hissing and growling. I told our son to come outside while I went inside to get her food. When I came back outside neighborhood cat wanted pets. Our cat got even more pissy. Neighborhood cat finally left.
I’ll never learn with women lol. L.E. I found out who the owners are. They aren’t there very much so she is stuck outside for long periods of time. So I make sure there is always food and water for her. But she is at least somewhat cared for.
Adam,
I has a similar situation with my neighbor’s cat when before I was married.
He was an orange tabby named Tiger. I’d let him in and feed him. When I saw the lights come on at his house, I’d let him out.
When I was single, I slept with a loaded .357 under the bed. One night, I was just at the point of dropping off to sleep. I felt something on the bed. I reached down, grabbed the gun, and pulled back the hammer as I rolled over. I heard “meow.” I told him it was time for him to go home and let him out.
Another time, he was over but I was out of cat food. I opened a can of diced olives for him. He at it.
Later, I saw my neighbors were home so I took him back. As I put him down, he barfed up the olives on their carper. My neighbor asked Tiger what he’d eaten. I didn’t tell them.
Haha, that is so funny, reconstituted olives! Black or green 🤣🤣🤣🤔? The neighbour is probably still having nightmares.
Cats are madness in the best way possible way. And limerence is perfect training for dealing with their little ways…..😆
Black olives.
The family moved shortly after. I never saw Tiger after that but he’ll live forever in my memory.
Yeah, cats are great role models for limerent objects, aren’t they, what with all their fickle behaviours and only giving attention on their terms 🤣🤣
Want your call to go to answerphone? Ring a cat. Want an answer? Ring a dog.
I’ve enjoyed these stories, Adam and LE.
Yes, if a cat loves you, you know it’s for real! (Unless you have a plate full of chicken)
Our cat is limerent for my wife. She sleeps with her. Follows her around the house, meows when she’s gone. I only get patronizing attention here and there because she knows I’m her meal ticket. But apparently she draws the line at petting another woman.
We were out of food one time and I gave our cat some anchovies and she turned her nose up them. So I was like fine I put the rest of them on my frozen pizza cause anchovies are delicious.
Adam,
I grew up in a place where when you ordered a pizza the first question they asked was, “With or without anchovies?”
I got my wife to try them and now she loves them.
Trifles,
I have decided to end the scrolling, but there was just two more bits you said earlier I wanted to respond to quickly.
The (T) need/wish to debate and challenge, not make assumptions, is most welcome and easily relatable for me to understand. You are always welcome to challenge my ‘logic’. Limerence does funny things to our thought processes and I have never found anything you have said to me to be untoward or dogmatic.
“In the beginning I was afraid that I would say one wrong thing and he would drop me based on that. Crazy, huh? 😉”
This is so NOT CRAZY. It is to an objective observer (like I could say, even on the tiny bit of partial knowledge of your friend I have, he won’t drop you for some slightly silly text or view he disagrees with). But it is very much not crazy to the person in it. I STILL get these sort of feelings about my comms with LO (“haven’t heard from her for 3 days, I must have done or said something really wrong last time we spoke [continue catastrophising until brain thinks we are no longer friends]” DrL has written about it). This will sound mad as a box of 🐸to you, because after all I have ten years to fall back on – how could a silly text or comment undo all that?! My brain is shrieking at me as I type this for ever being so silly, but it is singlehandedly the bit of LE I tie myself in the most knots about, even as a supposedly rational NT. (FUTILE FUTILE – whoops, the Tourettes is kicking in there). These things only seem mad from the outside. From the inside they are totally plausible limerent mind games we play with ourselves. You’re not alone in this.
LaR, thanks for your comments. I was actually trying to be a little clever there and allude to the dynamics on LwL. (I sometimes try to make really subtle points, but then realise no one else is reading my words with a magnifying glass/thinks exactly the way I do! And then to explain I take out the bulldozer anyway 😂).
Interesting that DrL had written about it. I relate it to the beginning phases of a friendship. You don’t yet know what you can say around someone, so you try to please them by being agreeable, careful not to ruffle any feathers. Then when you know someone better, you don’t have to be so careful with your words anymore. You’ve built the basis: you know and like/trust/understand each other. You/they can’t undo that with an offhand comment (short of totally coming undone and cursing everyone/everything, etc). They will look at the comment in the light of everything else you have said (quenching the possible cognitive dissonance) because they want to believe the best of you (and they’ve been given enough proof in order to do that), even on a website. So just to reassure you of that.
In real life, I think that is a sign of real (instead of superficial) friendship – you can be completely yourself around someone without feeling you have to censor yourself or your opinions. I feel I’m at that point with TO. It’s surprisingly rare now that I think about it! Or is it just me? Do others have more friends like this?
Also, I’ve noticed that even on an anonymous site I feel I can’t completely ‘speak my truth’ when it goes against popular opinion, because it can be attacked. And that’s a shame – we’re just inconsequential ghosts to each other, aren’t we? 😉
Trifles,
“we’re just inconsequential ghosts to each other, aren’t we? 😉”
👻 woooooooooooooo 😉
“I was actually trying to be a little clever there and allude to the dynamics on LwL.”
I think I read that right. I reckoned you meant ‘for gawd’s sake someone please just make a new thread at the bottom so we don,’t have to scroll!!!’. So I did it! In theory there could be other readings but I guessed on my gut. Likewise my ‘not helpful to endlessly debate this topic’ could (and might be read by some) as “butt out of talking about me you lot!”. I meant – not ‘I don’t want to talk to you’ but more ‘I don’t want to talk more *about this*’ (caveat ‘- apart from with the originator of the conversation if that’s wanted).
“So just to reassure you of that”
I survived my ‘on the hook’ faux pas, so I feel on fairly safe ground with you (I will not be trying to repeat that error but I know you are tolerant and accepting of an apology/context). Whether in this point above, you were alluding to damage to my reputation on LwL (as you know I expressed insecurity about it) or my irrational thinking about LO suddenly dropping me, I am pleased to hear what you said about it.
“In real life, I think that is a sign of real (instead of superficial) friendship – you can be completely yourself around someone without feeling you have to censor yourself or your opinions. Do others have more friends like this?”
I have two such friends, one of whom is LO. Maybe almost three. And I come at that as a person that actively looks for friends like that and makes little attempt to censor what others say as long is it isn’t (genuinely) ‘-ist’ or bigoted. The trouble is, it takes a certain amount of mutual trust building and disclosure (of the non limerent kind) to gently reach the 💡moment with a person “we don’t have to censor ourselves anymore!!!”. Isn’t it great when you get there? And censorship is so rife in the world that doing the first parts with a person is hard. My workplace is a seething hotbed of people constantly censoring their opinions publicly and then telling you something else entirely if you close the door and say, not in as many words, “you now have permission to talk honestly!”
It didn’t use to be like this when I was growing up. Construtive disagreement was enjoyed, encouraged and tolerated. From a plurality of perspectives came better ones! The bad ones got defeated by the better ones. But we really knew the difference between ‘attack the argument’ and ‘attack the person’.
“Also, I’ve noticed that even on an anonymous site I feel I can’t completely ‘speak my truth’ when it goes against popular opinion, because it can be attacked”
This is a shame because I have benefitted with you speaking your truth (and me speaking mine to you); sometimes that has been things I instinctively liked to hear, sometimes much less so, but the second ones are just as valuable.
I guess what we (collective) have to bear in mind re LwL is we only have very partial information about each other – what people feel they ‘can’ declare. Also little background usually about other areas of a person’s life/interests, perhaps even sometimes half truths or red herrings because the poster understandably wants to conceal their identity IRL. So we lack the context of a real interaction. LwL by the nature of the issue discussed, will be populated by a lot of people with strong sensitivities and difficult back stories and current life situations which we (us ‘NT’ especially) need to be very mindful of in our interactions.
So all that plays along in the background, and when we are ‘talking to an individual’ (like I feel am to you now), I want to be honest with that individual, but am actually speaking to a whole bigger audience (in theory the whole world) who may interpret what I’ve said against their LE or their worldview, not through your or my eyes. So that creates a difficulty. Say I want to give you an opinion that is strong, but that I feel you should hear for your benefit (there is nothing currently, just using as an example). Should I hold back on saying it to you? No – that’s inauthentic of me. Should I moderate how I say it and express caveats (‘in your case’, ‘could be’, ‘I believe (and I respect others’ right to differ … because’ , ‘not all LEs are the same’) out of respect to you and the rest of the community? Yes, but acknowledge that it takes time and effort, could dampen the authenticity of what I’m saying a bit, and will create some faux pas. The need to explain, clarify and occasionally apologise is, as you’ve said before, a very real part of the community building side of being here.
Complicated huh?
I think, with all that in mind, you should speak your truth but try to feel confident that you can defend, in a nice way, what you said and why you said it. To me it seems you have all these abilities. Are you a bit of a ‘say first and worry about it later?’ person? If yes, I think it is a good quality of NTPs because at least the thing gets said! But I wish the later worry could be spared. LO worries all the time about things she’s said – I just tell her “back your instinct”. On LwL I also find – like I just did above – I will express things as a question and give people the room to tell me I’m wrong. If I had phrased the above as “you are a bit of a say first and worry later person”, it would have a whole different feel of me negatively judging you, and it is harder for you to respond, as you might think “he has made an assumption without knowing me”. Or maybe because you’re NT it wouldn’t feel like that – more the less emotional version “he got his facts wrong, I should correct him”. If I am wrong even on this point, I am willing to be wrong. 😅
LaR,
I Just want to let you know that I’m not ignoring your posts from yesterday. I was simply too busy and too tired (always on the first half of week. ) I only got a chance to read relevant posts by 11pm. One can’t think clearly while too tired and pissed off— In blue states many are deeply angry, worried, and depressed yesterday, as you know politics does affect ordinary people’s life….
One penny thought here, if wanting to be truthful even in this anonymous land, one needs to prepare for totally opposite opinions (Stoic) and not worry about how other posters would judge our partial personality or ghostality, here.
Again please be assured that, despite some of your points sound very chilly (to your MFF), you remain as a well round (?) and fond ghost to me.
Now, I need to get ready for an appt.
Snow,
I totally 100% get it about it not being good to write while rushed or tired. No worries. We all have busy lives.
Merely for when you do have time – I don’t think we should dissect it all in forensic detail. You have a different view of my words to mine. That is absolutely every human being’s right. It would be boring if we all felt the same. The rest of the points in that post, Mila (the moderator who isn’t, but that would be a very good one) and your reply to her took care of a lot of.
The one outstanding point on my side is ‘what words specifically left those impressions?’.
I have to be Stoic about it too and believe more in myself. Just because you interpreted my words a certain way, doesn’t make it that way on the ground here with all the inside knowledge of the situation I have. Despite the unknowns, there are a lot of knowns too. I don’t know my friend (MFF)’s whole truths. The perspective you and Mila gave is a beneficial one to add to the basket of (many) ‘if X, then Y’ things I am balancing. I alone (and maybe MFF with her interpretation) know the level of care I have, and continue to, invest in her. I receive that back in spades too. Fortunately she has provided me with a couple of unsolicited but timely pieces of non-direct confirmation to me this week that our friendship is in a really good place.
You take care through the busy bit of your week. Thank you for the words and as I have said, it remains true that I have learned a lot from talking to you that has been and is super-helpful 🙂
LaR,
I’ve mixed a bunch of posts here to answer, even repeatedly for some. And For me, I like short Q&A format, so my mind does not naturally fly/derail somewhere else, as it often occurred.
“I think the idea that my LO does know (“eyes talk” etc.) is very reasonable and is the most likely one. I have thought (and said here) for a while that I see it as nearly impossible that I haven’t leaked it. “
What we don’t know here (maybe you know intuitively) is how she feels about it, which would be different if she has only friendship for you, or both with a secrete LE of whatever level.
“But how do you connect that to the push-pull ‘dance’ part of her behaviours I have described?
Yes, I connect more (probably more than many here). Remember I was in your MFF’s position with ET, minus the pre-LE friendship. But this topic was already covered by Trifles and me. If you don’t think she’s a Sensor, then futility is dominant factor. She’s smarter than me, if she is LE with you.
“If she knows, then I feel like she must want one thing or the other – a wish that I didn’t have the feelings (which would mean she’d pull away) or glad that I do (which would mean she’d push closer). “
“Must want”? Does your T brain put these ideas in your head? 😄 This is where I don’t think you (many men) understand well complexity of women with their emotions — there is NO scientific formula even within just one woman. Perhaps evoking FP more in brain would help you understand more?
“I know the fact I am with SO complicates all this a million times over, for her as well as me. But the alternation between the push and pull is harder to square. “
That’s why I feel more for your MFF. I did square it for four years, because I semi-consciously pushed for another urgent/more needed goal at the time. “Because of SO and both of your moral senses, none of you want to poke the hole on the thin paper/film between you.” I believe it, hugely – am just still trying to figure out why that creates BOTH push and pull from LO.”
Your huge belief here gives me more sense that she might be having strong feelings for you but cannot express it, either, due to your SO’s existence and her respect for SO (you said this before).
“It all leaves a lot of unknowns and what with the futility element, it feels best for me to work now towards going back to what was working well before – just try and calmly sit with the feelings and be purposeful in the actions. “
This might be wise, since neither you nor MFF are going anywhere or change your professional circumstance.
[“The one outstanding point on my side is ‘what words specifically left those impressions?’.”]—
”Yes, LO goes home alone. She has no shortage of options if she doesn’t want that (has had several men chase her during last year but is choosy). “
This the statement that is rationally objective and true, your MFF knows it, we could say/think it; but it is NOT for you, who has claimed and “demostrated” as her very good LTR and who has no intension to end the “precious” friendship, to say or even to think such a thing❗️
It’s not about censorship here, you’re free to think or feel or say whatever authentic in your head, but then based on my COO and upbringing, you cannot claim yourself as her true friend, because the statement shows you don’t care about her feelings (this is NOT a matter of right, independence or freedom but of a delicate/vulnerable heart: IF she was/is in LE with you, she did/does not want to and could/can not go home with anyone else, except YOU, who was, is and would be always unavailable! The FUTILITY is everywhere in this dynamic!
This statement could be an advice from your male buddies or us neutral “ghosts”, to give to you, IF you consider to end the friendship but too soft-hearted to do so. This is the statement that Mila used the word “smugness” and I “selfish””cynical”, “heartless” (no more “swearing” than “smugness”) to describe….
“Take the ‘futile’ part out, and she has the option of whether or not she wants to keep the friendship with me as it is, or not, against that backdrop. I don’t force or push that – it wouldn’t work to do that anyway.”
Again, after getting all the creative, productive, consoling, empathizing and supporting benefits from your decade long friend, you could say such a cynical stuff?? It’s like getting a precious gift from someone, benefited from it and then told someone else, “I didn’t really need it, I didn’t force or ask her for it, she brought it to me willingly… she could walk away anytime, the door is open… ”. Do you get what I’m saying here???
As I had discussed in the spring with Marcia, people in East value friendship much more than the West in general. They don’t form a close friendship easily or confide their mental/emotional stuff (too many taboo issues over there). However, once a friendship is formed and tested through some qualified and quantified hardship, it could matter more than any romance, even successful ones — can anyone live a life only with one SO?? Thus people genuinely care about “iron friends’” well-being — mental, emotional, physical, and even financial. Due to my particular experiences (a single, lonely child), I dreamt and chased “pure” friendship, personally so much harder than a romance (don’t ask me why…)
Now, one might ask that universal question: can women and men form a solid, platonic, lasting friendship?? If you check “Call me Cordelia”’s recent post, you’d get one sample answer. In the East (still macho), the situation is not much better nowadays, unless men have previously had romantic feelings for the women. (Trifles brushed this subject a little bit. ). Well, men’s biology dictate their interests and focus, not much one can do about it. In COO, friendship and Eros are described/viewed as one’s two arms, both needed to coordinate and strengthen heart.
“I do not mind what side you take – I am a person very open to constructive criticism. However, the point is, there is no argument on which to ‘side’ between me and LO.”
Once one party is in LE, then there are sides. There are 3 sides in your case — yourself, MFF, and SO. In friendship, no sides need to be taken because benefits are mutual and can be shared by the whole world.
“I get that that she will have a side of the LE story that’s different to mine – but there is not any conflict or disagreement between she and I about it that has ever been expressed.”
Because neither you could express them openly, whether there are LE elements or not.
“Your intuition in response to things I’ve written in the past has been pretty spot on, Snow. Often you can see hidden clues to what I really mean and respond well to them. “
My intuition could also work through the descriptions of your interactions with MFF. Since you don’t know what’s exactly going on in her head, it might take some time to prove I’m wrong.
“Respectfully, this time you have got a lot wrong, which could also falsely paint me in a bad light with other LwL readers and writers.”
I’ve got what wrong this time? I did not conclude anything, except worry for your MFF, more than you for the first time. Do you really worry about your reputation in LwL? And who is taking my points of views, anyway? It’s just a speculation from me.
“1. that I might be considering, on any *realistic* level (not hypothetical distant future speculation), ending the friendship with LO”
The above two paragraphs (Mila and I focused on) sound to my ear are from someone who wants to end the friendship but unable and try to reason and convince oneself for doing so.
“2. that I am selfish, cynical or conform to some ‘Western’ idea of being out for myself?”
Those two paragraphs show little caring for the other side’s possible feelings. In the West, romanticism is over stressed, glorified, almost worshiped, so unrealistic (thus selfish LEs rule) and mind boggling, while solid, mutual lasting friendships is undervalued.
“3. that I may have tried to suck in LO to having feelings of more than friendship for me?”
I never believed or hinted that you “have tried”, based on your own reports. As Trifles points out, it’s all voluntary; you can blame our neurology.
“4. That I do not regard it as a precious friendship?”
I already talked about it ⬆️. In precious friendship, one considers for and gives the other side first, and vice versa mutually; it’s constructive, up-spiral cycle. In LE, the DNA drive is dictating our emotions. We had a dialogue about the true motive behind disclosure, you said it’s not ego related, but instinctual.
“If you were angry with me on behalf of SO, I’d understand. “ “A criticism such as the “I feel sorry for your wife” recently exchanged between two other posters, would be a reasonable one.”
I’m “nortroius” in this site in not “caring” for anyone else’s SO, except my own and unless I personally know SO. The fact that ET went home to SO every night and often bragged about her NEVER bothered me, as if she was one of his belongings, an object. I don’t quite understand my psychology, though I have been a SO, cheated on by my SO, but also not as angry as other typical wives would be, based on Lovisa. I guess I was simply not jealous/envious of anyone else, until that pLO of ET.
“But anger on LO’s behalf? That I don’t understand, and feel you must have interpreted something I’ve said, very differently to the way I meant it, to lead you suddenly to expressing that. “
( Do you see the sides you are drawing now in your LE and wishing which side I stand? ) Why not? LO is a person/woman, too, and I was a “LO” myself far more than limerent. Your recent post made me suspect more that your MFF might also have feelings for you, thus feel more for her. If it is true, your MFF would suffer more than you and your SO, who could “righteously” unite together and just “kick” MFF out of your life, should it come to a necessary point, e.g. SO finds out your LE.
“Until 3 days ago after discussing the short film, you had never said a single thing that suggested you thought I had treated LO badly – what’s changed?”
I didn’t say at all that you’ve treated LO badly in realistic words or deeds; but your statements about her “independence” “freedom” sound very inconsiderate of her possible feelings. By the way, that documentary film triggered the pains of my LE5, in which I studiedly and painfully played a damsel-rescue role twice and could not get out, until E.T landed.
“Since coming to LwL, I have had just one line that runs through my posts like blood: “I want to end my LE while keeping the friendship intact / lose the limerence without losing the person (LO)”.
I have whole heartedly wished and supported your attempts, although not sure whether it could work out. I wish some cases can prove that there could be exceptions to DrL’s tested theories and experiences. To me, Bewitched’s and your case have big potentials.
“I am so certain that *both* LO and I need our friendship that I talk myself into the possibility it can all somehow work, this despite DrL’s and most commenters’ voices repeatedly telling us limerents that we can’t be authentic friends with an LO. I keep convincing myself that I am somehow a special case of being able to make this work, because I can’t stand to let her go. There you have it, that’s me laid bare.”
There is nothing wrong with your wishes and beliefs here, it’s very human to me. But still a student of LwL, I don’t know what will be result of your two cases. All I could do is to support your and Bewitched’s efforts and wait to see what happens.
“Why do I think that? I really have had few friends ever like LO, who get me and accept me and root for me on such a fundamental human level. This is not a false limerent view but one formed over ten years. I don’t and can’t know if LO would say the same thing the other way round”
“Get me and accept me and root for me….”❓ Not sure if she could say that, your SO would be furious if she suspects…😉
“What have I done about that? Been a safe and consistent harbour for her to form a stable attachment with a man and explore some of that, as well as having some fun times along the way. “
After all these, you still think she’s untouched or“incapable” of having attached feelings, along with friendship, for you? If you’re sure, I may think she’s a “robot”.
“I guess it is nearly inevitable that a male-female friendship this strong, or ‘nurturing’, ‘energising’, ‘accepting’, ‘valuable’ and ‘committed to mutual growth’ (to use LO’s own words at different times to describe it) could escalate for one or both parties into confusion over whether the deep feelings mean anything more.”
There you go! My intuitive suspicions always had their roots. It’s all so human and natural to have such a strong, deep bond evolved into something more than mere friendship. Where was SO when all this happened?
“I don’t know if she walks that line with me or if my limerent brain sees reciprocation where there is only friendship (here we are back at the ‘futile’ part). I am open that it may be either way and that I will never get to know in words.”
I can hear your clear “suffering” here, but also worry about MFF, who might feel the same way as you are.
“What I do know is that I have not done anything to intentionally suck her into thinking it is more than friendship.…. The only way I could prevent that is to not see her – hypothetically. “
Again, I never even hinted that you have tried or done anything INTENTIONALLY. Eyes are plenty enough for some women to detect men’s feelings — after all, 👀 are the window of soul.
“Does any of this show you how precious LO is to me as a friend, and how seriously I take responsibility for my part in keeping that friendship? “
Yes, it does. You’ve done a lot more than many coupled limerents here.
“When I say she has a choice in that, or in whether she goes for other romantic relationships, I get how that could translate badly in writing,”
It indeed sounds horrible❗️which shocked me two days ago….
“but I just mean to say I have never tried to force her to spend time with me or put me before other people or her own happiness. “
In Limerence, limerent is like a frightened mouse in front of a big cat (I love the picture DrL pictures), afraid to be snatched or swallowed by the intimidating cat. They scheme how to please LO, not daring to force/push them for anything.
“I understand what you mean that I could (although it is not definite) constrain those choices in ways I am not aware of.”
One simple possibility: if she’s already in limerence with you, then your existence in front of her is a constraint. That was what happened with me with E.T. I could not help dismiss available, more compatible and interested men around me. I went to LO5 for fwb and glimmered at Romeo for a month, but all vain, I could not get out of this LE. Of course, counting down the days of leaving the job worsened my LE….
“The important thing to me is that I understand this situation in my own head and can rest at night knowing I’m doing the best I can for all the involved parties. And I can do it.” This statement would make you stronger, more Stoic, and self-validating than worrying about my limited, culturally biased, opinions or your reputation in LwL.
“But I am aware there is a level of what I’m aware of and in control of, and a levels of what I am not aware of and not in control of. This creates a difference, potentially, between intentional and non-intentional harm I could cause. “
It’s wise of you to be aware of and keep the idea in mind. The Western civilization has a hope with your consideration in place! But there is a famous Christian quote seemingly true based on my observation in both world —
THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS….
“I would ask that anyone here who wishes to reflect on my LE, my conduct within it, and make judgements on my character as a result, does so by considering the range of posts I have made since May this year, and what runs constant in their content, not just this one post.”
Oh Boy! 👦 May I ask you, why do you care so much about LwL’s positive validation? Still from the lack of validations from SO❓
“I don’t think endless debate on this issue will be helpful to me, or most of you.“
Sorry to contradict you here, you don’t and can’t possibly know what ‘endless debate” are doing to most of us. And it’s really unhelpful to guess, IMP.
‘I looked very deep into my LO’s eyes today (not sought deliberately, it just happened naturally) and the very strong signal I got back is “everything is quite alright between us here, LaR”. “
Helpless neural activity again! 😄 what’s IS “everything” here in your eyes? Friendship? A bit of LE, or both?
“I can and will exit this maze without hurting her, but only time can prove it. “
Go for it! However, as a Stoic, I can’t help prepare for the worst, even in others’ cases, in case I get depressed if things do not go as I have wished for them.
“And, Snow, part of that for me involves acknowledging that I don’t and won’t take any action that is under my control to stand in the way of her pursuing other relationships”
I believe in what you say here. But if LE takes place naturally on her side, then nothing you could do to help her out, except walking away — NC 🥲. That would test the strength of your friendship, stronger or weaker than your LE.
“we all make clumsy mistakes with words, but that does not mean that I am heartless, selfish or cyncical with respect to LO or the LE.”
Here to repeat (respond to Mila, too): I never insinuated that you’re a heartless, selfish, or cynical person, but those statements just sound that way (smug as Mila puts it); they are words for others and us to say to you; they should not be in your head as her true friend.
“I have to be Stoic about it too and believe more in myself. Just because you interpreted my words a certain way, doesn’t make it that way on the ground here with all the inside knowledge of the situation I have. “
Exactly. If able to validate ourselves more, we would not quickly jump up on others’ opinions, validating or invalidating words. Just smile it off, and even ponder what has triggered off speakers’ mind…. (Please don’t ask about mine here, not telling 🤐 )
“Fortunately she has provided me with a couple of unsolicited but timely pieces of non-direct confirmation to me this week that our friendship is in a really good place.”
I’m really happy to hear it❗️You can prove to her, us, and Oscar Wilde that a man could be a very close and reliable friend, even if carrying a bit of uncontrollable biological drive. Solid, Platonic friendship, flavored by a healthy dose of EA, is the truest treasure in one’s life.
Sorry that I could not help rebel your request — not to write up a forensic report… I hope I haven’t striped off your 👘 too much…. I’ll let Mila cook you double/triple sautéed delights, Trifles fix you sweet, colorful smoothies, and Bewitched clean up my purple, verbal mess…. 😁.
Snow, LaR,
I just skimmed Snows post and just want to set things right- I just tried to explain why the passages Snow copied might have triggered her, how they could be read. From my own initiative, I wouldn’t have read them as smug. I just explained how they could have been read as smug. And I do think that a little bit of smugness isn’t as bad as being selfish and heartless.
Please leave me out of it now, I already regret having tried to play the moderator here, I‘m just not built for it.
Mila,
Heard, and I will respect that. Does this mean no brownie for me? D’oh.
For the record, I appreciated both the intent and the substance of your replies before, and I know you dont think me ‘smug’! 😏 (but then could not resist seeing if a smug emoji exists, and it does, that’s it just there)
Oh, that’s meant to be smug? I used it as kind of smirking at some double-entendres and similar…
I wonder anyway how many Emojis I got wrong, there are a lot of them I don’t even understand at all 🙇♂️🧏♂️🆙🔱📿🫓👐🏻😶🌫️
I put a plate of Brownies on the table for you two and will leave you to it;)
@Mila: Be especially careful of eggplants and peaches! 😉
Hi Snow,
I had been expecting the forensic report would arrive, so don’t worry. I shall settle down with my share of the brownie plate and the smoothie (now laced with alcohol I added) and try and have another crack at this.
OK, here it goes.
I am sorry to hear that the video triggered bad memories for you. I am also sorry if anything else I said added to triggers or memories. It does not mean I am a similar person to anyone in your memories, but I understand how such moments happen here at LwL, even if the poster doesn’t mean them to (and I didn’t).
The most important point I’d like to respond to is this:
“The above two paragraphs sound to my ear are from someone who wants to end the friendship but unable and try to reason and convince oneself for doing so.”
Even if those two paragraphs were open to that reading (as they were to your eyes), it simply is not true, on the ground here in my situation, that I want to end the friendship. It is the complete opposite. I don’t want to end the friendship, I only want to end the LE. I will keep saying it – I want her in my life as a friend for just as long as that’s something she also continues to want and contribute to. The reasons – limerence aside – are well enough documented in the LwL archives already. I still don’t know if I can achieve “end LE without ending friendship” – but that not knowing is different from not wanting, and different from me actively considering ending or otherwise harming the friendship.
In a previous dialogue with other posters, it came up that the later phases of LEs with friends had caused some re-evaluation of their ‘friendships’. I engaged in discussion where I was clear that I could not socialise SO and LO together at the moment and that this sat with a feeling of inauthenticity within me. I then hypothetically speculated – following others’ posts – on the future (said that in the post concerned), not commenting on my present feelings. We cannot know what the future holds. There are all sorts of scenarios involving disclosure on either side, if she wants NC (as you have said, the very strongest test of my commitment to the friendship), or a longer-term natural drift. That was all speculation. I know in the present that I have zero want or intention to discard or harm the friendship. I know that not everything that happens is in the hands of my conscious, but in so far as I can control it, there it is in the most straightforward way I can put it. Sometimes it is hard to disentangle ‘the friendship’ from ‘the LE’. Maybe that is impossible, actually, as you hinted at. Maybe this is why my words about one of them spill into talking/seeming to talk about the other sometimes.
More generally …
If I am to put my heart on my sleeve, the story I have mostly attached to since I began to progress this May is “LO does not reciprocate my feelings. My limerence has confused friendship for something more – the rest is in my head”. Bewitched said she kind of went for the opposite narrative and that worked for her. However, this story is the one that has enabled me to move away from a position of almost disclosing, to one where I got more settled over several months – not over it, but progressing. I’d be prepared to accept that maybe I subconsciously did this for selfish motives – it made it easier to see a way out of the LE. It is not all that selfish really – if I can exit LE, I can be a more authentic friend to her than I can within LE (maybe not from her perspective though – acknowledged, but I don’t know). In the absence of any of disclosure, NC option or wanting to do Dr L’s deprogramming (I couldn’t devalue her if I tried, wouldn’t want to, and how is that in any way fair to her in the position we are in?), this story is all I had to work with. During the time of internalising that story, I have not wavered in being part of a friendship with her. I have sometimes made attempts to lower contact, but only in very small and subtle ways (many pushed back against by my brain anyway), and never with NC as a goal – just to do enough to help me dial the limerence down.
This means that I haven’t really entertained, for quite some months, the idea that she might have any romantic feelings for me. I have not really let that thought in. When I have, I have ruminated over it here on LwL, but mainly just as a means of confirming to myself, through others’ experiences and reflections on mine, the story I wanted to tell myself.
You are right to put the seed back in my mind that there may be something back from her (you have not been the only one here), up to and including something stronger even than my feelings for her. If I can ‘hide’ it, in words, maybe she can too. But here it comes – I think her eyes leak it all over the place, but then I convince myself I’m wrong (Lovisa, Speedwagon and MJ have all told me why I could be wrong and how men don’t read women’s eyes well. Thinking I was wrong stopped me disclosing).
I accept your point that while she has had the ‘options’ I mentioned (and has confided in me about), they may not be ‘real’ or viable options for her, which could or could not have something to do with me. And that she may not be able to tell me the real reason why those ‘options’ aren’t real options, and that the reason she may not be able to is because she is harbouring feelings for me. I now see it again as a possibility – just one I have been denying myself thinking about in order to put “LE exit” first. But it is completely fair that you have given this viewpoint that she may have feelings. It is ‘may’, midway along a continuum from ‘definitely does’ to ‘definitely doesn’t’, on which the reality is located at some unknown point. I need to consider all of the possible realities to act with integrity. Painful for me, but the right thing to do for her and for the friendship, yes.
I also accept that her holding feelings is a reasonable explanation for why she might push and pull.
I also don’t like the idea that I am in any way ‘pinning her down’ into a situation she’d rather not be in. By that, I don’t mean the friendship, I mean any kind of deeper attachment than that, which could make her uncomfortable. Just because I don’t like it, doesn’t make it impossible. Again, the two things are hard to disentangle. I appreciate that this unintended consequence could happen not because of my direct action but because of subconscious signalling from me. I want her to feel free to pursue with someone else, what I won’t offer her and which others might. I accept now that it is outside my control. I actually hope we’re strong enough that if anything became too uncomfortable to her, she’d feel she could either disclose and we’d work out a way to work through it (as I also feel would be the case if it happened the other way round – definite that that I’d strive to work through it if she disclosed), OR that she could ask me for NC (as much as life allows) without a disclosure, knowing that I would ‘just understand’ why. I know none of this would be easy and that my limerence would fight back like a demon, but I also think I could fight back against it. So, if she asked me for NC, I believe I could honour it.
The good to come from this exchange between you and I is to put all of that central to my thoughts. Where we go from here, who knows, and I am not ready to give it much more thought right now.
That’s the main thrust of my response, but here are a few more replies on specific comments you made:
“what’s IS “everything” here in your eyes? Friendship? A bit of LE, or both?”
I don’t know because the point was about something she has conveyed to me through her eyes, repeatedly this week. It means “whatever ‘everything’ means *to her*” at this point in time. I can’t answer this question because it is not a point about what I felt or signalled. I’d be guessing.
“Do you see the sides you are drawing now in your LE and wishing which side I stand?”
No, because I didn’t suggest the existence of sides. I accept that there are different perspectives, but I don’t accept ‘sides’ because ‘sides’ implies overt conflict.
“Because of SO and both of your moral senses, none of you want to poke the hole on the thin paper/film between you.” “I believe it hugely”
Yes, I hugely believe the film exists. Your scenario that the film involves feelings on both sides is possible – acknowledged by me above. Another is that the film is merely about my limerence, which she knows about, but doesn’t reciprocate. Either is possible.
“May I ask you, why do you care so much about LwL’s positive validation?”
I take a slightly different view of LwL and the people on it to the ‘we are just faceless ghosts’ stance. Yes, I know that on some level that’s all we are. But there are several people here, you included, who have been a huge support network to me as I work through this, and whose experiences views I do genuinely care about. I don’t need everything here to be positive validation, but I do want to correct the record to those people if I feel my words have been misconstrued. I think you’d do exactly the same in my position without it being necessarily about validation per se.
“Where was SO when this was happening?”
First point – I knew LO first out of her and SO. When I began my relationship with SO, I told her “I have a fair few close female friends” and I said that I was not prepared to lose those friendships as a quid pro quo for being in a relationship with her, or any woman. You may think this sounds like a terribly selfish thing to say, and maybe it was, but I regard it as an honest thing to say, and better than lying or concealing. I named LO amongst those female friends at that time. They are in quite separate circles of my life, and alright, I admit it, I haven’t done anything much to actively change that, though they have met on a few occasions including twice since I would class it as an active LE.
“If it is true, your MFF would suffer more than you and your SO, who could “righteously” unite together and just “kick” MFF out of your life, should it come to a necessary point, e.g. SO finds out your LE.”
Yes, we could, in theory, but that would need my consent for it to happen. Following on from the above, I don’t know what there is for SO to ‘find out’, short of if she somehow gets me to admit to my feelings for LO. My ‘crimes’ (I use the word loosely) are ‘thought crimes’; actions-wise, I am honest with SO when I spend time with LO. I have said before that SO is fundamentally a good person who understands that I need others around me too. No, she doesn’t understand my ‘thought crimes’, but there is nothing that much in my actions for her to find out that I have not told her.
“Still because of lack of validation from SO?”
As I’ve admitted before, SO went a bit AWOL emotionally, working through some of her own issues, for a spell of time. I tried to help her with the issues concerned at the time. Instead of doubling down and trying harder with that, at the same time I let LO closer into my orbit instead (I also faced my own problems at the time and needed some support– n.b. that involved things other than validation – though I don’t deny LO is a good validator). I’m not that delighted with myself for this part, but it’s what happened. It could be said, yes, that I had a lack of validation from SO at that time, if that’s how we’re putting it. That is no longer the case. The problem now really results from the fact that I experienced the glimmer during the spell concerned, and we all know where that took me next – a place it is hard to pull back from. You have guided me several times, with questions etc, to reflect on my own about my situation at the time of the glimmer, including in my own mind, and about things with SO. I need some space to do that, and I would respectfully ask, even if you don’t care for the SO’s side of the story so much, that I am given time to do that, and that my SO does not become the subject of further speculation and questions like the above in our conversations. I know I have not given out as much about SO to generate empathy for her, as I have about LO. But she is a still very much an involved party, and one who in my opinion has suffered as much or more than LO has through the maze that my brain has dragged both of them into.
“Sorry to contradict you here, you don’t and can’t possibly know what ‘endless debate” are doing to most of us. And it’s really unhelpful to guess”
Point accepted – I can only speak for myself and I apologise for trying to speak for others.
“This statement could be an advice from your male buddies or us neutral “ghosts”, to give to you, IF you consider to end the friendship but too soft-hearted to do so.”
Again, I am not considering ending the friendship. But if it is OK for male friends or LwL ghosts to think it for me, then I feel it is OK for me to think it. The thought was, merely, that she is on her own out of a choice she has made between that and being with other men who have offered her. It’s her human right to choose. (With all other caveats discussed by you above, and by me in response, accepted), It would be a different ball game entirely if I said that statement to LO, but I wouldn’t dream of doing that.
“Get me and accept me and root for me….” “Not sure if she could say that, your SO would be furious if she suspects…”
Brilliant!
“But if LE takes place naturally on her side, then nothing you could do to help her out, except walking away — NC”
Yes – but I should only do that if I knew it was what she wanted. To walk away based on speculation only seems like a very bad plan.
When I said that perhaps further discussion wouldn’t be beneficial, the ‘to me’ part genuinely is true at the moment. As much as anything – and it must be the same for you? – writing messages like this one takes many hours, and we all have a lot else on. My LE is receiving quite a lot of analysis at the moment, and that is taking a toll on me. The LE itself is enough to handle. And I am sure the rest of the LwL community are also having their patience tested by my over-sharing.
This is the truest account I can put out, and I hope it answers some of your questions. Anything left unanswered is because I don’t have an answer right now.
With that, and my portion of the brownie plate and smoothie finished, I am going to grab my coat and check out of LwL for a little while and give us all a break from this story. I need a break for myself. Until the next time, please everyone take care of you and yours.
LaR,
Finally, my ESL has caused misunderstanding…
“I am sorry to hear that the video triggered bad memories for you. I am also sorry if anything else I said added to triggers or memories.”
Thank you for your empathy and consideration, being triggered is inevitable to happen at any given time. I’m sure that LwL and our words related to LE had/has triggered all of posters here (whether we have openly admitted it or not) at some points.
“The above two paragraphs sound to my ear are from someone who wants to end the friendship but unable and try to reason and convince oneself for doing so.”
I think here lies a huge ESL grammar mistake! Would this rephrasing make a difference: “the above two paragraphs sound to my ear were from someone who would or might wish to end…”.? Because I KNEW for certain that you don’t want to end the friendship, but LE, I was so surprised to hear it three days ago.
Due to this misunderstanding, you felt compelled to wrote a few more paragraphs trying to pursue me your position; while I was not in a need to be convinced. I’m really sorry about my grammatical errors.
“I was clear that I could not socialise SO and LO together at the moment and that this sat with a feeling of inauthenticity within me. “
I read the discussion and totally agreed with you. Not just inauthenticity issue, but LE eyes, of your or MFF, may involuntarily reveal some stuff that your SO could detect. It’s a highly risky situation for every limerent, pre-friend or not. (Mila is exceptional)
“Sometimes it is hard to disentangle ‘the friendship’ from ‘the LE’. Maybe that is impossible”
I never had your kind of dynamic, so cannot answer your questions here (maybe Mila can). In all my previous friendships and relationships, I never was in LE with friends, but some were having “LE” with me. I was so worried about hurting their feelings and treaded every step carefully, while never giving them any illusion or a false hope to get closer to me.
“You are right to put the seed back in my mind that there may be something back from her….”
It’s not my intention to entertain such a thought, but something from your story gradually struck me that this might be a possibility.
“But here it comes – I think her eyes leak it all over the place, but then I convince myself I’m wrong (Lovisa, Speedwagon and MJ have all told me why I could be wrong and how men don’t read women’s eyes well. Thinking I was wrong stopped me disclosing).”
I’m not in your reality, I can’t confirm you either way. ET figured me out the first sight he spotted me while speaking to another person, four months after I glimmered at him. But he’s a Sensor, you don’t sound like one, aside from your obvious validation seeking, which is different from our vulunrtary validation giving.
“I now see it again as a possibility – just one I have been denying myself thinking about in order to put “LE exit” first. But it is completely fair that you have given this viewpoint that she may have feelings.”
With kindness, affection and the strong wish/principle not to bring ignorant harms to one’s SO or MFF or close friend, one needs to consider all possibilities, not just an easier exit for one’s own pains. If LO is from a Tinder, then that’s someone totally different from a good friend of a decade long.
“ I need to consider all of the possible realities to act with integrity. Painful for me, but the right thing to do for her and for the friendship, yes.”
👏
“I actually hope we’re strong enough that if anything became too uncomfortable to her, she’d feel she could either disclose and we’d work out a way to work through it”
None of us here knows anything realistic about your MFF except what you described to us. My overall impression is that she’s “authentic”, warm, empathetic, very social, and supportive… so in general, she’d be very cool-headed. But if she is already in LE, then none of us here can tell how that LE would affect her sounding mind. We all know what LE did to us.
“So, if she asked me for NC, I believe I could honour it.”
That would be what a true friend would do, acting for her benefits/wellbeing. As a LO, I’ve received such a kind of benefits from platonic, mutual LO1.
Me: “Do you see the sides you are drawing now in your LE and wishing which side I stand?”
You: “No, because I didn’t suggest the existence of sides. I accept that there are different perspectives, but I don’t accept ‘sides’ because ‘sides’ implies overt conflict.”
“Overt conflict”— can you openly tell your SO about your LE for LO? Your disbelief on my anger on behalf of your MFF but not sorrow for your SO shows that you’re drawing sides. And in general, as long as one can’t take LO and SO to bed at the same period of time, and have to make a morality choice, then there are sides! LwL would not be needed if there are no sides.
“I take a slightly different view of LwL and the people on it to the ‘we are just faceless ghosts’ stance. Yes, I know that on some level that’s all we are. “
In my definition, “ghosts” are alive human beings with soul but no shape/face in LwL space. As long as a soul exists, then all sort of human emotions and mind exist. So ghosts have meanings for me, but not in a realistic sense. I just thought some abbreviations today:
GA — Ghost Acquaintant
GF — Ghost Friend
GLO — Ghost LO
GE — Ghost Enemy
GT— Ghost Troll
SG — Silent Ghosts
“I don’t need everything here to be positive validation, but I do want to correct the record to those people if I feel my words have been misconstrued.”
Understandable.
“ I think you’d do exactly the same in my position without it being necessarily about validation per se.”
Perhaps. Is it because I’m not in your position so that I haven’t cared as much as you do? 🤔
“You may think this sounds like a terribly selfish thing to say, and maybe it was, but I regard it as an honest thing to say, and better than lying or concealing. “
Not selfish here, just consideration, honesty and self-respect. I’d do the same.
“Following on from the above, I don’t know what there is for SO to ‘find out’, “
Something vague/puzzling in your eyes! Whether your LE would involuntarily distract them to somewhere else when you’re supposed to focus on SO. Most female SOs are sensitive and know when your mind wanders off. ET told me once that her SO could immediately spot his wondering/driefted mind, which explained to me why he’s so guided against EA, but not PA.
Me: “Still because of lack of validation from SO?”
You: “I would respectfully ask, even if you don’t care for the SO’s side of the story so much, that I am given time to do that, and that my SO does not become the subject of further speculation and questions like the above in our conversations. “
You misunderstood me here, I was simply puzzled by your much cared validation needs, not anything further about your SO, you already told me before.
“Again, I am not considering ending the friendship. But if it is OK for male friends or LwL ghosts to think it for me, then I feel it is OK for me to think it. “
Still disagree! We can say it because we don’t have that deep friendship tie with her, but you do; thus deep care/affection has been invested and fruited. Based on my morality for a good friendship, I still use the word “selfish” and “cynical” to describe your stand.
I know I’m a minority here. The fact that most of Westerners would agree with you — a quite thoughtful and caring person, really shocked and chilled me three days ago (I’m okay now) But for now, Let’s accept our cultural and personal differences here, okay?
“It’s her human right to choose. (With all other caveats discussed by you above, and by me in response, accepted), “
Again, it’s not a matter of human right, but capacity and vulnerability of a human heart — one’s close/good friend’s heart, not a random LO’s. Is Here the T brain talking?
“It would be a different ball game entirely if I said that statement to LO, but I wouldn’t dream of doing that.”
It’s not thought crime to think whatever, but true care and affection come from one’s thoughts. I would be horrified by myself if I even thought of that behind my good, reliable friends. (Lucky to have a couple).
Me: “But if LE takes place naturally on her side, then nothing you could do to help her out, except walking away — NC”
You: Yes – but I should only do that if I knew it was what she wanted. To walk away based on speculation only seems like a very bad plan.”
Agree! I did not suggest to do it at all now, no matter based on what. But I’d change the phrase a little bit, “if I knew it was what she wanted or if it was truly beneficial to her but she could not do it herself.”
“When I said that perhaps further discussion wouldn’t be beneficial, the ‘to me’ part genuinely is true at the moment. As much as anything – and it must be the same for you?”
I heard you in your last post, and I will stop here. Sorry for my further clarification; no need to respond this post at all. Please don’t worry about what debates are doing to me, let myself take care of that.
I totally understand and support your needs for a break. Take one or more as long as needed, and feel better! 🤝
Ha, I was actually referring to this comment of mine throughout the entirety of my last comment: “I was afraid that I would say one wrong thing and he would drop me based on that. Crazy, huh? 😉” I.e. that was my subtle comment. And yes, I was talking about how people – who have followed your posts here for a longer time – would interpret your intentions (and wouldn’t drop you).
The part about scrolling was not-so-subtle. 😁
As we can see, the possibilities for misinterpretation are endless! Next time I will add a quote so you know what I’m referring to.
That is very true that we are potentially speaking to “all limerents” / all the world (who manages to google our discussions). But I do get tired of sticking caveats in front of everything. Instead I try to (when I can!) relate everything back to my own experiences – those I can speak about with authority.
And nah, I’m not usually the “say first, think later” type (probably because I’m not E). Though I could spend a little more time thinking before I write sometimes! (But to me that’s: “futile!” 😁) But as you see, I can often step outside of my emotions to the “he got his facts wrong, I should correct him” stance. 😁
And thank you for asking me to express my opinions freely. I think you should do the same, even if it doesn’t always take into consideration everyone’s feelings. E.g. I think I once said something along the lines of “it’s TO’s business whether he wants to stay friends with me.” (I don’t remember the exact words). And no one jumped on it. In fact, you just commented on how quaintly NTP that was! 😉 Or at least that’s how I interpreted it (that you said it with only good intentions).
Trifles, yes, that from me (the bit you ended on there) absolutely was a quaint bit of affection and respect for what you said. I can imagine LO saying it, so I would of course only ever have a positive gloss on it ☺️ I like comments in plain terms like that where I might be overthinking an issue and the other person is just like “no, this is the plain fact of it”.
Thanks for all the positivity. Caveats to points can be minimal, not a big drain. In short, don’t change and “do you”. Look at how DrL writes with a good blend of humour, sarcasm, snark and seriousness. You mix that stuff well – you aren’t afraid to call a spade a spade, but also life would be glum if we always let ourselves be glum and see the bad side (of limerence and other things) and that’s where your humour on here is welcome. I post more on bad days in my LE than good days, and occasional things you’ve said just brought me to out loud laughter and this made that bad day a teeny bit better.
So I think as much as we do have to have compassion for other posters’ sensitivities, we all need to be ourselves too and not model on anyone else. DrL has written once about how he wants LwL to be, and why he ‘moderates light’. In short, a constructive ideas exchange. I’ll link below if I can refind it.
Here it is what I mentioned in my last reply to you Trifles – an ‘old but gold’ post:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/on-infidelity-moral-philosophy-and-commenting-policy/
LaR, thanks for the link to that oldie blog. The quote by Solzhenitsyn is such a good one I had to add it to my collection. Such a great argument for seeing the shades of grey in humanity.
I also found an interesting link to a relationship article from Lee in the comments:
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/every-successful-relationship-is-successful-for-the-same-exact-reasons
Thanks also for the validation, this is getting almost embarrassing. But do go on… 😉
I am also a recovering “people pleaser” but nowadays it’s fine with me if not everyone understands or agrees with me. But it is of course nice when someone does.
I concede it’s probably a good idea to do checks to ensure none of us are enabling each other or some silent reader (e.g. whenever we talk about keeping friends, who may or may not be LOs, around). But you seem to have your feet firmly on the ground so personally I’m not worried about you, at least not at the moment. (Is that enough caveats? 😉)
Trifles,
No – I need more caveats!!! 😂😂
Yeah soz if I laid it on a bit thick there. I worried that your communication style was scrutinised (caveat – not in a bad way) from Sammy right in the middle of our chat about communication styles and I wanted to reaffirm.
But yeah, i know very well you can both affirm and speak for yourself! Go forth!!
Now, about that smoothie??!
LaR,
ROTFL Yes, flattery will get you everywhere. Here’s your smoothie. I made it with strawberries and mint to celebrate the weekend. (It could use some tequila though.)
I’m not sure what the other straight men have to say about this preferential treatment from the women here. … Actually, they’re probably just happy they stayed out of the drama!
Happy Friday (from this annoyingly joyous post-limerent)!
Trifles,
„ I’m not sure what the other straight men have to say about this preferential treatment from the women here“
I want to point out that my Brownies are for LaR AND Snow😊and you, if you like them. For you I even would add some salt caramel.
Actually, everyone can have one apart from me and Frederico🙈
Mila
I have had been told plenty that my chivalry and manners that I was taught come off as “preferential treatment” and even misconstrued as flirting. Which to me is more of statement of how bad society views have gone than it is whether I do come off that way or not. LO once scoffed at me for walking her to her truck with my umbrella when it was raining. I told her that the reason I have an umbrella in my truck is because I walk my wife to and from with it. Followed with “A man doesn’t do these things because he is saying a woman is incapable. He does it to show her that she is valued and respected.”
That said, I do give Miss Lovisa preferential treatment. Though I don’t think anyone needs to hear me admit to that to know it is so. 🙂
Wow, a party here on the other side of the pond! 🎊🪅🎈
Looks like I should consider to migrate across Atlantic 🌊, feeling so gravely gray here…
Better to take a glass of chilled strawberry smoothies🍹 to roll out of my Proustian bed….
Wait, is the strawberry smoothie made and reserved only for Trifler’s LaR? 🤫
If taking Mila’s famous brownies 🍥 at this moment, I’d fall back to sleep immediately…
Mila, don’t discredit yourself. That’s some fabulous moderating right there, brownies and everything! 😯 You have every reason to be 😏 now. *Grabs the salted caramel brownie and (patiently) waits for frederico to show up…
And Snow, you are the one who put the smoothies on the menu so you get to decide who they are for. Certainly one for you. 🥤
Trifles,
I am unable to make your kind of unique soul-soothing smoothies 🍹, so it’s only appropriate for you, the producer, to distribute them to desirous, especially male’s 🧠/👄 in the room, plus your TO.
Mila is an expert to invent her own brownies 🍥 with continuous add-on ingredients…
I only know how to polish verbal pebbles 💎 and throw them when getting “excited/charged”. 😊
LaR is exhausted in self-defending 🤺 , so please give him an extra serve…
Trifles,
guess what my kid had baked when I came home?
Without salt caramel, but very yummy. Wish I could throw you all some.
@Trifles.
In the past, you have helped me by showing openness when I wanted to touch on issues a lot of people throughout the world still consider controversial. So now I will help you. The thing I will help you with is the lost art of social harmony. (Since you’re a “T”, I don’t think you’ll be offended by some casual tutoring). 🙂
I think, at LwL, we’re not all “inconsequential ghosts to each other”, and to view other posters as inconsequential ghosts is a grave mistake (pun intended).
Although LwL is anonymous, the posters here are real people with real lives, real marriages, real thoughts, real feelings, real goals, real joys, real sorrows, real values, real concerns, etc, etc. It’s disrespectful to view fellow posters as mere ghosts, and not human beings who wish to share their valuable life wisdom.
I know limerence can make people a little bit manic and want to post their every thought to a gleeful reception – only to find no gleeful reception awaiting. Limerence can make show-offs and blunderers of us all. During limerence, I have been manic myself (thankfully only on other sites unrelated to limerence). So I know the embarrassing weirdness that can sometimes result from posting just because one delusionally believes one’s every thought is worth recording. 🙂
Look, I get it – people in limerence, who are having a somewhat good time, want to enjoy all that positive energy bubbling up within their own bodies. That’s okay. One of the upsides of limerence is clearly the boost in energy it provides. But it pays to remain mindful of others while enjoying one’s own boisterous energy.
I have been at LwL for four years approximately. I’m sure, during that time, I’ve probably come across as about eighty-seven different personalities. Believe it or not, I’m not trying to protect my anonymity or be confusing on purpose. I really am as muddled (in my grasp of my own very complex selfhood) as I appear to be.
My story is a little sad. As a result of limerence, my entire personality collapsed into fragments. Since that collapse, I’ve been slowly rebuilding my personality/identity in the direction I would like. For me, “rebirth” isn’t falling in love/ limerence. For me, “rebirth” is what happens when limerence is over – it’s the new, much more mature identity which emerges post-madness. My LO inspired me to stop being the boy I never was and start being the man I truly am.
I think the biggest problem I’ve seen at LwL is people simply coming here to demand (sometimes quite angrily) validation for their own point of view, whilst showing zero curiosity in other people’s points of view. Some people don’t even bother to read Dr. L’s articles, from the sound of things. This seems to be more of a problem with people whose overall experience of limerence has been positive. People with very positive experiences of limerence seem unwilling to entertain the possibility some people just aren’t having that much of a good time.
I therefore put this question to the room: why can’t someone who’s having a great time celebrate their own overabundance of feel-good energy while also empathising with people who are experiencing a lot of pain? I mean, it doesn’t have to be either/or, does it? For example, I’d like to think I’m the sort of person who can be both full of high spirits and deeply empathic, switching effortlessly between the two modes of being as the need arises.
I think it’s probably a little unreasonable to ask posters who are still in a great deal of pain to share in the joy of limerents who are having upbeat experiences – at least not while said posters remain in an active state of suffering. When unhappy posters are no longer actively suffering, perhaps they’ll find they have the mental space freed up to be happy for people who are having positive experiences?
I don’t think being sensitive to other people’s feelings can ever be a bad thing, limerent or not. Being sensitive to others is just good manners. Limerence does not give one permission to treat others insensitively or with a marked lack of respect. I know the “inner brat” wants to come out during infatuation. But respect pays richer dividends in the long run, and builds friendships that endure.
I do share your view that people-pleasing is actually a huge problem in all human relationships, because people-pleasing tendencies actually make genuine intimacy next-to-impossible. Also, people will eventually grow to resent the individuals they were merely placating. When I spent all my time people-pleasing, I found I became very depressed and ended up with no wish to see others.
I guess what I would like people to know/see about me is that it doesn’t matter how funny or charming or sarcastic I’m being – I’m always simultaneously trying to teach people something really important. I often teach through humour. It upsets me when people laugh at my jokes, or enjoy the show I’m putting on, but miss the valuable lesson I was trying to convey.
Everything I’ve said at LwL over the years has actually had a strong educational component built into it. I guess I just want to enchant people into learning. I will use every trick I have at my disposal to share knowledge. If I have to be a clown to get people to listen to me, I will be a clown. Eighty-seven different personalities I may well have, but my heart is first and foremost the heart of a teacher. 🙂
Sammy, thank you for your long comment. I will carefully consider your points – as someone just said: we are all here to learn. Of course we all have different things that we want to learn, and we should allow for that as well!
I’m not self-aware enough to know how I come across to every reader here. And it would probably be futile to worry about that. It would do my head in to always wonder!
But one thing you should know about me is that I use sarcasm quite a lot – and I know it doesn’t always hit home with everybody, especially in written form.
Also, if I appear a “joyful limerent” – great! I perceive myself neither an overly joyful person nor currently limerent. Though I do strive to have an optimistic world view and to always find the lesson in hardships.
That goes to show how differently we interpret things here. There will always be misunderstandings, and I think we will just allow for that, in the meanwhile doing our best to avoid them of course.
So to cut a long story short: this comment was pure sarcasm: “And that’s a shame – we’re just inconsequential ghosts to each other, aren’t we? 😉”. Hence the winky face. Thanks and apologies!
And don’t think the work you do here has gone unnoticed! Quite the opposite, in fact – I’m sure most would agree.
I’m upset. My limerence got the better of me today big time.
I’m angry at ‘you know who ‘ for not contacting me and I have no right to feel angry but it shows he is not even a friend , I really do need to shut it down.
Reading some recent posts here has made me even sadder on this community.
I’m not taking sides on this one, but I do like the combo of jelly, custard and cream !
Ok, I’ve had some drinks to drown my stupid limerent brain so this is like a lady Adam posting late night. Forgive me.
Btw Adam its an affectionate reference I make to you. I’m sure you know.
Right I’m shutting up and signing off now.
Imho!
Sorry you feel sad and angry. Somehow you are the poster here I have very protective feelings about, I don’t want to see you sad!
Angry is another thing.
Maybe it helps that in my case, it was always a sign of moving forward? With a lot of going backwards again in between, but it was finally seeing something off in the whole shiny LO picture.
It’s kind of a middle phase for me. After that came phases where I found that I ruminate less when being on good terms with him but more distanced than steaming in my anger.
But the first step was recognizing that the picture of this magic between me and perfect LO is a fairy tale, everyone of us just being normal people with different mindsets and lives.
I have no idea of your exact situation of course! He could have his own reasons why he doesn’t contact you. We never know what’s going on in our LOs.
Help, which posts made you sadder? Hope not mine. Combo of jelly, custard and cream, where did you get that from, I haven’t been keeping up🙈
I hope you are feeling better today. You are a fine person and you are not dependent on of this guy contacts you or not, there are better things to do with your life 😘
*magic connection
Ok I got the sweet combo now, this dessert not really exists in my country, had to google;)
Imho, I’m sorry to hear that. I know the feeling of disappointment when someone who’s important to us fails to remember an event that’s important to us. If it’s someone who is a part of our actual lives, we can address it. If it’s someone who’s not, it’s more difficult.. and in the case of an LO, it would give away our feelings. But it hurts nonetheless.
I think Mila is right, it moves things along when you see more of his bad/human sides.
And you needn’t be worried about us or our desserts, all is good, we ate them all 😉
Hi Imho,
I just wanted to say that I am familiar with being angry at ‘you know who’. In my case, it was failing to contact me after deaths in my immediate family, and worse, sending generalised work messages demanding diary availability from everyone at the time that this was going on (they could not have failed to see my out of office on compassionate grounds). The out of office was on, others knew why I was not responding to work, why didn’t he acknowledge it? Well, I made many excuses for him because of his presumed neurodiversity (maybe he did not know how to react, or it slipped by him as he is a bit chaotic and generally unfocussed). But it hurt, so much. The more I thought about rationalising this away, the more I felt that, no, this was unforgiveable. Or at the very least, so useless with respect to emotional intelligence, that was a turn off to me. So whether it was (cold/uncaring) or it wasn’t (slipped his mind/he never noticed), it was a helpful corrective. All along, when he did little things that annoyed me, I was so forgiving of these smaller things that when it came to the one massive thing I needed support on (even a minimal amount), and he came up wanting, I spent a lot of thinking about what that meant and ruminating on it. I thought about all the other people in my life who did *not* come up wanting, who were, by contrast, amazing, generous, kind and unfailingly sensitive to my going through a sh1t time. My thought process was that, even if my LO did not have the social skills to deal with it in a reasonable way and provide a basic level of human kindness that you would show to *anyone* going through a rough period, even if he lacked that ability and could be forgiven, he was not the man for me as that level of care and support of anyone in your midst who is a colleagues and needs latitude is just not acceptable to me.
For you too, its seeing LO with eyes more open than usual, and not allowing the excuses I/we normally make for him to cloud our judgement. My LO was/is someone with really good points but also with flaws. When I ‘needed him’ (needed everyone in my life) he just didn’t come up to scratch and never would. Remember this is also someone who has made what I consider to be a fairly grand gesture to me at another time, so I took a long time and a lot of over and back for me to see all of this. But seeing him as he is rather than as how I idealised him was a really important step in the journey.
As Mila said
“You are a fine person and you are not dependent on of this guy contacts you or not, there are better things to do with your life”
Yes – you have to have faith in yourself and your needs, my lovely friend. Idealising this man is a mirage and is probably stopping you getting what you really need. It does take ages to see it, it took me ages, but I am actually really glad that I did see eventually. Going through the LE taught me about what I needed from life and from the good people that I have around me. For me, it was about appreciating and cultivating those other relationships more, so that I am good and I am also caring for those people in every way I can on little day-to-day things (some of them are not going through hard times, like I was, and I feel that I am really here for them).
„ Well, I made many excuses for him because of his presumed neurodiversity“
„ So whether it was (cold/uncaring) or it wasn’t (slipped his mind/he never noticed), it was a helpful corrective. All along, when he did little things that annoyed me, I was so forgiving of these smaller things that when it came to the one massive thing I needed support on (even a minimal amount),“
Wow Bewitched, could have been written by me in much worse English.
Except that it wasn’t such a massive thing in my case as in yours. I do think that in your case it’s „unforgivable“ too, not in a hateful way, but it certainly crosses the line of what you can allow for in a person who assumingly cares for you. Maybe it’s because he‘s neurodivergent, but this is not about him but about what you can accept and need, and that’s not what you need, as simple as that. You can still forgive him, but it will push him from a certain rank in your mind for sure.
While mine was not as bad as that , he still gave me a new picture of his personality in the way he behaved when I needed something from him.
I exaggerated it in my anger/feeling of loss/quest for freedom, I think, but it still showed how the real person differed from my view of him.
Maybe it’s a good reality check, Imho?
I guess this event is still coming up, where you‘ll meet him in person?
IMHO
Some drinks do that don’t they? I’ll totally admit to drowning limerence with vodka. Perhaps not healthy but cheaper than therapy. If therapist even know of limerence.
I understand where you are coming from. LO came back about a year ago to try and get her job back. I just found this out some weeks back. But when she did try I got no call from her. When the dopamine subsided I was angry. Or at least bitter. Why didn’t she call to say hi? Do I mean nothing to her? The truth is; probably. Ouch!
You take care of you young lady. I know what wallowing in it means. I did plenty of it before I found this place. Don’t doubt your self worth or judge yourself based on LOs actions or non-actions.
Now I got something for you to try and help. This song is from the first CD I ever bought. Don’t let the band name scare you lol. Yeah CD I’m that old. My celebrity crush Paula Abdul were all on cassettes. And one of my favorite songs of all time, Crimson & Clover I listened to on a 45. So yeah old. I’ll post the lyrics link since I sang nonsense to this song for years before the internet.
She (He) Drives Me Crazy — Fine Young Cannibals
https://youtu.be/Hi_N4npokZs?si=woSe4gl-x_qeZXn0
Aww, how lovely to read these replies , I’m so appreciative of the care and time you have all taken. I really do count you as friends.
Mila,
you are so responsive and supportive. you are indeed my guardian angel !
The triggers yesterday was quite unimportant in the scheme of things. Something happened at work and normally he would have reached out, but he didn’t.
Also someone shared a photo including him which got my heart aching. Pesky photos !
Yes I think the anger feeling ( at least in our heads) is actually a good thing to getting marginally closer to the exit of the limerence snail shell.
And yes the event is on the calendar. I won’t say exactly when as I don’t want to be ID’d.
It will be a very brief encounter unless we make further arrangements to meet-up, as normal friends would do. I think that’s now unlikely.
So yes it feels heavily loaded with expectation. It’s been over a year since last time.
Im trying not to ruminate on the different scenarios of how it will play out.
Anyway I woke up with a sore head today and been trying to do healthy things today. Indeed you are right I do have “better things to do in my life” thank you 😘
Trifles,
Thanks for your words of support. I have been struggling to find his bad sides, I need to try harder! 😉
Oh and the dessert comment was me siding with you on the frakas with Sammy.
Trifles are made of jelly, custard and cream and other stuff. Apparently trifle is only really known in the U.K.
Imho, Bewitched,
Imho, I felt and resonated your pain last night, but a bit triggered to say anything, in addition to my verbal inability to soothe others’ LE pains.
Bewitched, it’s always so soothing and encouraging to hear your deeply empathetic and forgiving voice…
I’ve been through your kind of disappointments literally uncountable times in 7 years — my simple friendly/cordial caring words/deeds were (perceived) intermittently reciprocated or just heartlessly ignored by ET. Then I brushed them off as I, an unwanted/unneeded limerent, did not have any “right” to expect simple curtesies or a friend’s considerations. Believe me, I was forced to practice Stoicism in LE far more than choosing to carelessly ramble here in public.
I dislike to complain about my pains openly (especially nowadays when the forced NC has been in place — it’s permanent futile!), because I’d be refreshed or reinforced with the past anger. However, I just want to say, it were those repeated disappointments gradually helped me separate ET from the Phantom, who was/is a part of my Self all along and who could truly take a good care of my Selfs.
Since five or six days ago, all the dark sides of LO5 & ET were refreshed up in my mind by that short film and some stuff discussed/debated with LaR…. I’m fine and calm now, after getting my upsetting thoughts and emotions self-analyzed, clarified and expressed through my verbose “monologue” posts. Thanks to LaR’s patience, empathy and acceptance….
Imho, I hope you feel better soon, with whatever effective means.
Hi Adam,
Your LO circling back and not making contact is hurtful, I would feel the same. A ‘Stuff her’ response is the right one to help yourself.
We gotta get meaner !
Paula Abdul, eh? Well she is gorgeous.
I love FYC’s. I’m probably older than you think.
That is an excellent song. Also ‘Johnny come home’, less LE relevant but there is a lyric that resonates drowning sorrows.
https://youtu.be/dYuceNlhe-A?feature=shared
“Trifles are made of jelly, custard and cream and other stuff.”
Imho, I gotcha – I was just being subtle/coy. 😉 I gotta stop that, it doesn’t work in text form.
I’ve also wondered before how healthy it is to keep people “in my life” (or are they only on the outskirts?), who I really have no claim to demand anything from… LOs usually fit that bill. You and Snow reminded me of the pains that that dissonance causes.
Trifles,
I just want to conquer what CMC had said in the other blog, “ I’d 1000 times over rather be alone than let the fear of being alone stop me from leaving a relationship that wasn’t fulfilling. I believe a lot of single people become much pickier because it IS so good being alone (if you’re privileged enough to have the freedom to do what you want). A partner would have to ADD to my life”.
Sometimes, spending time with “wrong” companies are simply “painful” if not boring one’s brain out…. I wish 36 hours a day to do all what I want to and enjoy doing….
Thank you for your chilled, joyful smoothies! 🫂
Hi Imho,
“It will be a very brief encounter unless we make further arrangements to meet-up, as normal friends would do. I think that’s now unlikely.
So yes it feels heavily loaded with expectation.”
What do you mean, “it’s now unlikely”? It sounds as if it’s like the weather or some other stuff you cannot influence. Would you like to meet him, or would you like to make this as short as possible, just see him at the event and be gone?
I think, me in your shoes, I would feel better if I would feel more in charge- not waiting if he suggests meeting, but deciding if you would like it or not, so you could say no if he asks, and if you would want to meet, you can suggest it yourself. It would lessen the load of expectations and unpredictability.
Also, could be that there’s suddenly a valid explanation coming forward why he didn’t get in touch, or that he gets in touch suddenly tomorrow etc- that might overthrow your defenses, and I think you should wisely prepare that something like this won’t bowl you over that much that you veer in the other direction and destroy the good progress you’ve been making.
This could also happen at this event.
Maybe think about how you want to feel after the event- how you want to have behaved etc.
Me, I experienced often pain after such an event, when I avoided LO the whole time until he was gone, and afterwards I realized that this wasn’t what made me feel good. Having spoken to him and having behaved friendly and calmly, and then having said goodbye on my own accord, that would have made me feel good and given me peace of mind.
That might be not at all what you need for your peace of mind, I just advise to think about it before- how would you like the evening/afternoon/whatever to play out, and then you can act accordingly and not feel as a passive victim of circumstances.
Does that make any sense?
If not, it’s ok- it might be my more passive personality that feels better when I finally get a bit proactive in steering events.
Snow, I agree with CMC’s point. And I think what a shame it is that it isn’t a given to everyone – that you shouldn’t be with anyone except for the WANT to be with them. I do remember growing up that for some of my friends it was a major life goal to get married. Of course they did have career goals as well, they were smart people. They didn’t NEED to get married, but the previous generation’s attitudes were a strong influence. I think life was tough(er) for women of our parents’ generation if they were not married. I think this has probably changed for the younger generation, at least in our privileged countries.
And by “this has changed…” I mean the attitude that marriage is a “necessity/given” in life.
Hi Mila,
thanks for your message which really helps, as I do have influence , it’s not up to the direction of the weather.
Your words are prompting me to think hard and indeed being in control to make it real and honest. Whether I should really minimise the f2f contact, which maybe counter productive and bring some regrets and hard feeling afterwards.
I’m really torn to be honest as to the right approach….I’m a bit confused right now. Let me think about it and reread your message some more with my own thoughts ( lots of rumination I’m good at !!).
I will let you know how I go . have a great week ahead x
Hi Imho,
but now maybe not put too much weight on it, because in the end not everything is in your hands. You cannot steer the events or him, only yourself, maybe only plan on how you‘d like to behave(and if you‘d like to suggest a meeting or not) so that you can be ok with yourself afterwards, no matter how it will play out.
Now I‘m worried I brought you into rumination hell🙄
It’s just my own experience that I feel better when taking charge, might be the opposite with you, maybe you‘d feel better when you stop thinking about it and let it run its course!
Sorry that last line should have said ‘(some of them are **now** going through hard times,….’
Hello Bewitched, my dear.
Oh my goodness, your story of LO not being there or even respectful in your time of grief is really terrible.
It has put my stupid woes into perspective, that’s for sure.
That is one good thing to come from grief, it does reveal who the good people in your life are.
And you have actually shone a light on me that I have been neglecting some real friends.
I do need to put my energy and time into them and not LO.
I think with limerence, I’ve gone into myself too much and also wasting time online, and on this phone too much, and yes that includes LwL.
As a consequence nothing really motivates me unless it’s something really exciting or rewarding, it all seems just so dull including the relationship close to home.
I’m glad through your LE you discovered the need to cultivate those healthy relationships in your life and I admire how you took action, and no doubt you probably feel happier and content. This is what I need to aim for.
I bet your friends appreciate you immensely. I do !
It takes time and hard efforts just to dissipate all old LE pains, let alone dealing with ongoing ones…
Bewitched, hope you’re continue feeling your serenity….
The conversation of how people may look at us based on our posts here reminds me of the saying ‘a drunk man’s words are a sober man’s thoughts’. So don’t be me and wake up, get to work, and vaguely remember posting something you hoped that you really didn’t. *clicks on LwL, checks recent posts* Yessssss!
Ha, and as you see, we allow different people different amounts of leeway! Adam can come in here and drunk-post and everyone just says “Aww… That’s Adam for you!” And Adam, I say that with only love. 😘
And then poster 1 uses the wrong word in haste and poster 2 decides to drag them through the wringer. I assume that something just rubbed poster 2 the wrong way about poster 1. Perhaps poster 1 reminds them of someone who once did them wrong. We don’t know. But I prefer to always assume the best of people and their intentions, until proven wrong.
I’d have to imagine that Dr L does give me some leeway. Thankfully even fully sober I suck at typing on my phone vs my keyboard at work. So drunk and dumb fat fingers trying to type? While my wife next to me in bed slamming away at her phone with both thumbs typing 10 times more words in the time it takes me to type one sentence. That’s mostly why I rarely post in the evenings or on the weekends.
And no worries Trifle I know you meant well. I have no problem owning up to my drunk posts. 🙂
I’m with you on the phone typing! I hunt and peck slowly on the phone and can’t understand at all why people would use their phones over pen and paper, or write novels on their phones instead of laptops. Then a few weeks ago I saw a 26-year-old tapping away on his phone and was amazed, lol.
SL, I’m sure I could give that 26-yr-old a run for his money… Because I swipe instead of tapping 😜
The Heart Recalcitrant
Leonora Speyer
Does the heart grieve on,
After its grief is gone
Like a slow ship moving
Across its own oblivion?
Heart! Heart! Do you not know
That I have conquered pain,
Have parted from my woe?
That my proud feet have found their path again,
After the pathless heights-long after-
And that my hands have learned to bless
Their overflowing emptiness,
My lips grown reconciled to laughter?
O laggard of dead roads,
O heart that will not heal nor break
Nor yet forget!
Tell me, whose tears are these
That greet me as I wake?
Why is my pillow wet?
Red rebel, is it you
That lifted this wild dew
Like banners from my arid dreams,
That roused this ember
From exiled ashes,
Calling me to remember?
Speak, is it you that wept
Upon my pillow while I slept?
Does the heart then grieve on,
After its grief is gone,
A treasure ship that journeys
Across its own oblivion?
*********
Could Red Rebel always rouse red ember from a 🐦🔥’s ashes❓
I read the updated article “Person Addiction” and these are three possible conclusions my brain reached:
(1) Limerence is “person addiction” and “person addiction” is a phenomenon entirely separate from “romantic love” and shouldn’t be mistaken for “romantic love”.
If limerence isn’t “romantic love”, but only a perplexing alternative condition called “person addiction”, some human beings are (subjectively) likely to be experienced as addictive by potential “person addicts” and should therefore be avoided at all costs by people prone to person addiction and who wish to avoid person addiction in the future. I.e. prevention is always better than a cure.
I feel this theory fits in with the idea that limerence is some sort of trauma response.
(2) Limerence is “person addiction” and romantic love is “person addiction”. If “romantic love” is “person addiction”, then shouldn’t everyone just embrace “person addiction” because apparently it’s the biological norm? (Assuming one believes “romantic love” is a normal and highly desirable state of affairs),
Or, here’s an idea – can a distinction be drawn between the “person addiction” of limerence and the “behavioural addiction” of romantic love? What if romantic love is classifiable as behavioural addiction but as not person addiction per se? I.e. are “person addiction” and “behavioural addiction” two different things?
I think the most ardent defenders of limerence are likely to be people who believe they are experiencing bog-standard romantic love. And what could be more natural than romantic love? Why the push to pathologise romantic love, etc, etc?
(3) “Person addiction” and “romantic love” are two different, distinct entities.
However, in the early stages, “person addiction” and “romantic love” unfold in eerily similar ways. While true “romantic love” follows one well-established emotional trajectory, “person addiction” takes a steep turn to the left before degenerating into a curious state of utter mental and physical chaos. (We might use the analogy of a plane that flies off course that then crashes into the sea).
If this third hypothesis is correct, the question is raised: why do humans so often mistake limerence/person addiction for romantic love? Is it just a lack of good information? Or are the early “nervously pleasurable” feelings of romantic love and person addiction exactly the same, so people understandably get confused? Also, is it possible for one person to experience BOTH healthy romantic love/s and stubborn person addiction/s in the same lifetime?
Personally, I’m a fan of the third theory – “romantic love” and “person addiction” begin in the same way, but then “person addiction” takes a steep turn to the left. Why this swerve takes place I cannot say.
Another brainwave…
In my opinion, “romantic love” and “limerence/person addiction” are different things. Based purely on my own personal experience, here are the two main differences I see between “romantic love” and “limerence/person addiction”.
(1) Romantic love involves falling in love with an actual person. When I was limerent, I might have been suffering from “person addiction”. But I didn’t fall in love with the boy sitting next to me in Maths class. I fell in love with my IDEA of the boy sitting next to me in Maths class. I wasn’t interested in the real him.
Now I’m out of limerence, I can see my former LO much more clearly, and understand who he is/was/will always be. He’s a nice enough fellow. But, honestly, we have very little in common. For example, I wouldn’t enjoy watching the sports he likes to watch on TV or participating in the same hobbies, etc.
(2) Romantic love probably grows to a certain intensity, and then stops. Romantic love is powerful, but there’s a limit on how powerful it becomes. Limerence, on the other hand, can just keep growing and growing in intensity forever.
Romantic love is like a sports car with excellent brakes installed. Limerence is like a sports car, but when the mechanic built the sports car, he forgot to install brakes. Or maybe he installed faulty brakes. And the driver of the second sports car can neither stop nor slow the vehicle once it’s in motion – a very scary thought.