The previous post presented a particularly thorny limerence dilemma, and inadvertently also highlighted some of the difficulties presented when discussing emotionally incendiary topics. Like limerence, infidelity, and personal responsibility, for instance.
Unfortunately, it also failed in its explicit intent: to help the person who had contacted me, seeking support. A few days after the post went live, “Creative limerent” got in touch with me about her situation, but also apologetically admitted that she did not feel able to enter the discussion on the post for fear of being attacked by some commenters.
My general philosophy for commenting on the blog is fairly laissez-faire, but CL’s response is a message I’m not willing to ignore, so I think it’s time to spell out some ground rules, and outline my view on what is appropriate conduct.
What I am hoping to achieve with this blog
When I started out, I was mainly just expressing myself, and trying to help understand the experience I had been through, by writing my thoughts down and organising them in a way that helped me make sense of limerence. But it has grown (happily!) and my primary ambition now is to help other people make sense of the experience too. The purpose of the blog, therefore, is to help people affected by limerence – both limerents themselves and those suffering because of the behaviour of limerents in their lives. What it is not is a forum for critiquing other people’s conduct and character.
Who is welcome
Everyone. Genuinely. I absolutely believe in a pluralist approach to problem solving, and cordially dislike echo chambers. I think all voices and all perspectives add value to the discussion around limerents, and have said before that “chumps” (i.e. victims of infidelity, as per chumplady) are not only welcome, but make an especially important contribution; by spotlighting in stark relief the impact that selfish limerents have on their loved ones and friends. But.
While I dislike echo chambers, I also dislike the current social trend of equating victimhood with moral authority. I do not believe that misconduct by a limerent erases all their positive contributions to life, or that having been a victim of infidelity grants chumps the insight to dictate what is right for everyone else. I suppose my worldview on this is that most of us are stumbling through life, trying to figure out what we’re doing, and being variously favoured, victimised, and buffeted by random chance. The way through that is not to sort people into goodies and baddies, and then eulogise the goodies and dehumanise the baddies. A bit of humility is always a good idea. Caring about the wellbeing of victims is easy; caring about the redemption of transgressors is when your compassion is properly tested.
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
Alexandr Solzhenitsyn
Some people are unreachable, of course, but I’m going to assume they won’t be coming here, and certainly won’t be asking for support.
Infidelity
I am anti-infidelity, as I would think the vast majority of people are. I’ve joked before about being a judgy judge on this topic, but there’s nuance in every situation. The first grey area is that not everyone agrees what constitutes infidelity. For some, thoughts are betrayal enough. For others, words. And then, there’s the sliding scale of physical acts from hugs to long-term sexual affairs. For myself, I fall on the “your thoughts are your own, but once you externalise them you take the consequences” line. But I also recognise the difference of opinion, and would rather learn from someone with a different view than correct them. The second grey area is that there are degrees of betrayal. That does not mean that some betrayal is OK. It does mean that mitigating circumstances matter.
The extreme cases are easy. A player who has multiple affairs, puts their spouse’s health and finances at risk, and is unrepentant, is obviously despicable. A neglected spouse who admits their inappropriate feelings to a co-worker they have become limerent for may not have acted perfectly, but there’s room for forgiveness. However, the mass in the middle is the tricky bit. Those people who know they have broken their own moral codes and are trying to cope with the guilt, but don’t know what to do. Those people who feel like they’ve lost control of their senses, and desperately want to get their emotions back under control. Those people whose LOs are actively enabling the limerence. How far is unforgivable? How little a transgression should be confessed?
I am far from convinced that shoving all the grey area cases to one or other of the extremes is the right response.
Disclosure
One of the points of contention in the last comment thread was around disclosure – specifically whether (and when) the limerent should disclose to their spouse. I have a post on the topic here, but to summarise: the limerent and spouse should be working as a partnership, or the relationship is going to get into serious trouble. I would advocate disclosure at a time and in a way that maximises the chance that an honest and constructive discussion can be had. But, I also think that there is a reasonable case for the limerent trying to stabilise their own emotional problems before disclosure – or if the limerence has not progressed to disclosure to LO (or a physical affair) then not disclosing at all. I think it is probably best for the long-term health of your relationship to disclose even limerent feelings – because they are symptomatic of an unresolved romantic longing in the limerent that is best analysed and understood – but choosing your moment is also important.
To give a specific example: I heard from a cheater spouse who disclosed to his wife while they were driving home from a concert. His distraught wife leapt out of the car at a stop light and ran out into the traffic. If you know that your spouse is emotionally vulnerable, it is reasonable to take care about when (and where) you disclose. Other examples would be: while the partner is working abroad, if the LO is the partner’s boss, or partner’s employee, or partner’s friend. Yes, these are all undoubtedly unpleasantly disrespectful betrayals, but thoughtless disclosure could compound the damage rather than limiting it.
Basically, betrayal is really really shitty, so don’t do it, but if you have, try not to make it even worse. A good rule of thumb is: if you are not disclosing because you are scared of the consequences for you, then you are making the situation worse. If you are not disclosing because you foresee even worse damage from doing so, then think deeply about the best time and circumstances.
Commenting policy
So, for those who have persisted through this study in centrism, here are my thoughts on commenting. Please be constructive, supportive, and civil. I don’t want to mod, but I will in cases where the conduct or character of contributors is being attacked. Look on it like this: if you hector people, you are not going to persuade them. If you dictate what they should do, you are robbing them of the opportunity to figure it out for themselves, and anyway, you don’t know what is best for them. The call for civil discourse seems recently to have been taken by the media as evidence of a right-wing powerplay to suppress minority voices – another one of those moments where I feel the zeitgeist is leaving me behind – but to me, civility is part of the bedrock of civilisation (it’s sort of implicit in the word). My definition of civil discourse is not “no swearing”, it’s assuming that the person you are addressing is acting in good faith, and responding accordingly, even when you vehemently disagree.
With all that out of the way, I’ll end with a belated thank you to everyone who has contributed to the discussions on the blog to date. Thank you all. It is incredibly moving and gratifying to read the messages from people who say that this blog and this community has helped them get their limerence-wracked lives back on track, and given them hope for the future.
Long may that continue…
Having got all that pontificating out of the way, I am going to be very liberal about comments on this post. Please feel free to attack my positions and stress-test them for inconsistencies 🙂
Firstly, I think now is an ideal time to say an enormous thank you for this blog. It has been transformative in terms of me understanding and dealing with Limerence. I come back to old posts as they become relevant to me on my own journey, and they are like a guiding light to me. So thank you.
I think part of the problem is just how much Limerence warps the decision making and behaviour. To an outsider, such as an SO or even someone who used to be limerent and no longer is, it must just seem so illogical.
Many of the comments are essentially saying “snap out of it”, “surely you know this is wrong” or “just cut the LO out of your life”. I get it of course, to the detached observer the answers seem so simple. But to the addicted, and this is Person Addiction at the end of the day, logic doesn’t come into it.
The very definition of addiction is feeling compelled to do something despite the adverse consequences. That is Limerence to a T. If I could snap out of it I would, I know some of my behaviour was inappropriate but I did it anyway. Can I explain why? Not really. Can I just cut out someone who I’ve become so fond of and feel compelled to look after? It’s incredibly hard.
Unless you have gone through it, I think your empathy only stretches so far.
I appreciate all the hard work you put into the blog, Dr. L.
What drives me bonkers is that if you (singular, plural) feel limerence is an addiction then it would be better to address the secrecy that fuels it. At an AA or NA meeting, secret-keeping is backsliding. They also take family involvement seriously. Addiction (and limerence) rarely happen in a vacuum.
Admittedly, Mr. Lee is an outlier. He did tell me early on but not early enough that the habit of lying to me and to others wasn’t starting to take hold.
I’m not a fan of Margaret Thatcher. I can agree with her on this point though,
“Watch your thoughts for they become words. Watch your words for they become actions. Watch your actions for they become…habits. Watch your habits, for they become your character. And watch your character, for it becomes your destiny! What we think we become.”
Gandhi wasn’t a particularly nice guy either if you really delve into what he believed about certain castes and his views on women, but again, the quote has merit:
“Your beliefs become your thoughts,
Your thoughts become your words,
Your words become your actions,
Your actions become your habits,
Your habits become your values,
Your values become your destiny.”
Anyway, people need to be mindful of their thoughts because it instructs their walk.
Except for exercise. So many people think about exercising but don’t do it. Which is a pity. It’s great for thinking and working off some angst and frustrations.
I would echo what has been said in thanking Dr L for the hard work that goes into this blog.
Regarding the idea that “Your beliefs become your thoughts,
Your thoughts become your words,”
The biggest thing I’ve struggled with is that my thoughts were at odds with my true beliefs/values and were clouded by the limerence.
The LE is something that developed quite slowly in my case (we worked together about year before the ‘glimmer’) so if I didn’t normally give my husband a detailed account of every conversation I had with colleagues, was it lying by omission that I’d spent lunchtime chatting to LO?
In the early stages I just thought “Oh it’s a random crush, it will pass” and tried to ignore it. If I had disclosed then, what good would that have done? It would have made SO insecure and I truly believed if I ignored the crush, it would pass.
When it didn’t and developed into this full blown obsession I did eventually summon up the courage to disclose, and my husband reacted exactly as I thought he would, and completely downplayed the whole thing as he didn’t see chats and hugs as betrayal like I felt they were. Eventually he came round to understanding my point of view. And 6 months of marriage counselling later, we are pretty good (had our last session this week, but the counsellor has left it open if we ever need to go back we just have to get in touch)
Good point about exercising though… that is spot on in my case!!
“6 months of marriage counselling later, we are pretty good (had our last session this week, but the counsellor has left it open if we ever need to go back we just have to get in touch)”
That’s great news and congratulations to both of you!
It’s easier to exercise when you have company. At least most dogs do well with nice long companionable walks even if it’s a tougher to coordinate with people.
“Eventually he came round to understanding my point of view. ”
Question – did it take him as long to see your point as it took you to realize you had slid?
““Oh it’s a random crush, it will pass” and tried to ignore it. If I had disclosed then, what good would that have done?”
Mr. Lee disclosed less than 3 months after Miss LO appeared on the scene and while it wasn’t pleasant, it has led to many fruitful discussions. It hasn’t been all pleasant since then but more issues have been addressed since he did so.
YMMV.
In answer to your question Lee, I honestly can’t remember how long these things took as they were both gradual processes.
In my case, LO has been a catalyst for a lot of changes, but things are feeling and looking better now.
I hope the discussions and adressing of issues have positive outcomes for you and Mr Lee as they have for us.
Wow, I could have written the first half of your comment almost word by word! Like you, I worked with LO for over a year before this silliness started, and the beginning thought it would be harmless –hell, I may have even encouraged it a little in my head as some sort of midlife rebellion. Have I paid for that one.
I also disclosed to SO, emphasizing that it is an issue in my head (and it is. LO is fully oblivious and my actions toward him are mostly neutral. It’s the thoughts that kill me). SO was somewhat hurt but also kind of let it go; I don’t think he understood how painful this is for me and potentially damaging for my psyche and our relationship even if nothing will ever happen with that other person. Perhaps I can convince him to go to counseling.
If I may ask: do you mind sharing more details on the marriage coounselling? What was the focus of it? Was the limerence discussed at all or was it more about preexisting issues in your relationship with SO? I’m kind of doubtful that that last angle would help much in our case. Our marriage is in good shape, the main problem is my tendency to escapism and limerence.
Firstly well done to you for managing it Marianne! It is so ridiculously painful.
I had had counselling about 12 years prior to all of this,so when I was struggling with the limerent thoughts, and my best friend said to me ” Hey Soph I think you need to get some proper help now” it wasn’t too daunting to get some help.
I disclosed to SO partly because I knew he knew something wasn’t right, and partly because I knew I needed individual therapy. I was only working one day a week at this point, so therapy took up 90% of my wages and therefore I needed his support!
Whilst working with that counsellor I began to see what it was about LO that appealed so much, why it surfaced at this time and despite my efforts to ignore or pretend otherwise, how much my husband and I had drifted. It also became clear (although even now I still have moments when I forget this) that the limerence is all about my own issues and NOT about LO.
I hasten to add I’m not blaming SO – he was working a stressful job and was entirely wrapped up in that, even when not at work. I was at home 6 days a week with the kids, and although SO helped around the house and with the kids, I wasn’t feeling supported.
I hit a block with my individual counselling as I was so bogged down with day to day stuff, all opportunities to talk to my husband led back to him ranting about work but never doing anything to change it, I felt completely unsupported at home but no idea how to tell him. After all, he helped out with the kids and some of the chores when he was home, but he wasn’t emotionally available to me.
In the end, I basically said I’ve reached the stage I think we need to see a marriage counsellor – my individual counsellor has recommended someone – as I struggle to get my point across and we digress onto mundane stuff when we try and talk at home. I left the idea with him, didn’t push it, also suggested it may be helpful in working out a way to change jobs and leave the toxic environment he was working in. Eventually (about 2 months and him changing his mind a few times) we had our first appointment.
Initially he was a bit reluctant, but we gradually made progress. I have never used the word limerence in therapy. With the marriage counsellor, when we discussed background I briefly mentioned the “inappropriate crush and friendship” I’d had with a colleague, but by that point I was no contact. (More details of my story are in the comments on this post: https://livingwithlimerence.com/2017/03/22/emotional-affairs/)
Some sessions were quite painful, I felt so bad knowing what I needed to say was going to hurt SO, particularly that I felt we were more like friends than lovers, but having the counsellor there helped me to communicate it better, and stopped SO from avoiding it. We’ve both learned that it is OK and in fact healthy to have feelings, the need to allow ourselves to have them, to share as appropriate (even if painful) and undoing our programming from our families that says otherwise. My husband is now in a new job, much better environment, less stressed and more emotionally available. We both still have individual stuff we are working on, but we are able to support each other with it and are much closer to the 50/50 partnership that we want.
If it’s your tendency towards escapism (very familiar to me!) then maybe seeing an individual therapist may help in uncovering what you’re trying to escape from?!
Obviously I’ve no idea of your individual circumstances, so ignore me if that’s inappropriate for you.
Either way, all the best as it’s a very difficult situation!
I too want express deep thanks for this blog… it’s so nice to intellectually know what is happening to my vulnerable heart and have a body of work to substantiate that it is in fact just a mirage.
And I am deeply grateful for the cry for civility. I too have felt wary of posting (although my limerence has never involved a married person and I myself am single). I have felt wary due to the critical and nearly vitriolic responses posted from time to time. I am a gentle soul and limerence is painful enough…. to feel attacked doesn’t help, if anything it hurts and makes one seek comfort … and we all know where a limerent seeks comfort.
I have very high moral standards, and long, long ago was a victim of an unfaithful spouse so I heartily agree that controlling thoughts is the foundation of controlling behaviors. I have a zero tolerance policy for unfaithfulness.
However I feel the cry for fidelity and integrity must be laced with kindness, compassion and respect. I think one is more apt to listen to that cry when done so.
Looking forward to continued learning and growing from this blog!
My desire to “come clean” led me to causing a lot of pain to a woman whose only mistake was liking me.
The woman and I started seeing each other when LO #2 and I had broken up. LO #2 made noises about getting back together and, based on our history and my belief we had a future together, I agreed. But, I chose to announce my return to LO #2 at a really inappropriate moment. I just couldn’t stand not telling the woman because I was feeling guilty for being with her when I’d decided to return to LO #2. So, I just let it out.
I’ll never forget her standing in my living room with tears streaming down her cheeks, telling me, “She’s using you!” It turned out she was right but I wouldn’t know that for almost another 2 years.
If I could have one “do over” in life, it would be to somehow spare her the pain I caused her by the way I disclosed. That event influenced my decision not to disclose to my SO. I never want to be responsible for something like that again.
Thanks all for the comments and good wishes.
I agree with Vincent that the experience is very hard to describe without experiencing it, and that it would stretch anyone’s empathy. It is fundamentally irrational. And it ironically made me better able to relate to an addict in my family, who we had all beseeched to just “stop doing the bad behaviour!”
Re. thoughts leading to action – yes, that is true. In fact, that is the way into the limerent trap. You think and think about the LO until they are the centre of your mental space and then you realise you can’t stop anymore. Even though you really want to.
So, for future episodes of limerence “beware about even starting on the thoughts” is good advice, but for people already caught in the trap, the solution has to be a slow and painful rewriting of your internal narratives. Disclosing to a spouse can be a very helpful step. But not always.
I also suspect that many limerents feel “I’ve brought this on myself by indulging in fantasies, so it’s my responsibility to sort myself out, rather than putting it on others.” Unless a physical affair (or disclosure to LO) has happened, it is all going on in the limerent’s head. I don’t consider this as keeping a secret, and don’t expect to be privy to all of my wife’s thoughts either.
But, if the limerent has crossed the point where their behaviour is jeopardising the primary relationship, then yes, explanations need to be forthcoming.
I cannot thank you enough for this blog! I am currently in LE and found this term when I was trying to figure out what is wrong with me. What a painful battle this it!!!
Another big vote of thanks to Dr L for keeping this blog. It has been a tremendously useful resource through this experience. I only wish we could have a forum to discuss with like-minded people about this!
(And yes, I do know about the limerence.net forum, but the focus there seems to be on attachment wounds and narcissism, and I don’t see that applying at all to my situation).
“While I dislike echo chambers, I also dislike the current social trend of equating victimhood with moral authority”. Very well put. I have to say all exchange I’ve seen around here has seemed civil, but well, I’m not the moderator.
Hahaha – this popped up for me this morning.
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/every-successful-relationship-is-successful-for-the-same-exact-reasons
Highlights that seem immediately applicable:
3. The Most Important Factor in a Relationship is Not Communication, But Respect
3d. No secrets. If you’re really in this together and you respect one another, everything should be fair game. Have a crush on someone else? Discuss it. Laugh about it. Had a weird sexual fantasy that sounds ridiculous? Be open about it. Nothing should be off-limits.
4. Talk Openly About Everything, Especially the Stuff That Hurts
“Trust is like a china plate. If you drop it and it breaks, you can put it back together with a lot of work and care. If you drop it and break it a second time, it will split into twice as many pieces and it will require far more time and care to put back together again. But drop and break it enough times, and it will shatter into so many pieces that you will never be able to put it back together again, no matter what you do.”
5. A Healthy Relationship Means Two Healthy Individuals (shout out to Sophie who leads the way!)
I love the title to his book.
Trust is so important and often taken for granted. You may not notice it until it’s gone.
When I dropped the dime on LO #2, I didn’t tell her I didn’t love her anymore, I told her I didn’t trust her anymore.
When it looked like my wife and I weren’t going to make it, I told her I couldn’t live the last third of my life with someone I didn’t trust.
“Have a crush on someone else? Discuss it. Laugh about it. Had a weird sexual fantasy that sounds ridiculous? Be open about it. Nothing should be off-limits.”
This one comes loaded with caveats. I learned early in my marriage my wife had a pretty low bar on what she considered betrayal. At one point, it was so bad, I’d walk through the mall looking at my shoes rather than risk her making some comment about me and the woman at the Clinique counter. It took a marriage counselor to get through that phase. We did it but it reinforced that some things are better avoided than confronted.
Remind me, did any of your limerent episodes occur while married?
The last one. The condensed version can be found in:
“What Can Spouses Do” Comment: OCTOBER 11, 2018 AT 11:29 AM
“We did it but it reinforced that some things are better avoided than confronted.”
That appears to have been mentioned.
A Healthy Relationship Means Two Healthy Individuals
“A good marriage is one in which only one partner is crazy at any given time.” – Heinz Kohut, “How Does Analysis Cure”
OT: If you want to watch something interesting, watch his video, “Reflections on Empathy.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ6Y3hoKI8U
It’s all good but pay particular attention starting at 1:45.
Like the limerence addict I am, I come back to this site’s various postings time and again when I feel the need for group support. And it really is helpful. Like, I just found this post from Lee about successful relationships. What a great summary of wise advice! So so true about respect and trust. The two are way more intertwined than I understood before. Thanks, Lee, for including the link.
Those that cheat aren’t usually doing it to hurt their SO. So I believe disclosing an affair or infidelity that having been disclosed causes no chance in relationship status change, SO will not leave you or separate or what not, will create only negatives and pain for everyone. If my SO cheated on me but had no intentions of leaving me I’d prefer not to know. Sometimes being a unsuspecting fool is better then living a life full of anxiety and stress wondering what your SO is doing at any given time they are not with you. I’ve seen people in them type of relationships and I’d never want that level of stress you can never get rid of except threw changing your relationship and some don’t want that. However if you are cheating with the thought of leaving your SO that is using them until you don’t need them and tossing them aside that is not how you treat someone you love. So the first time you seriously think about leaving your SO for LE It’s only fair to your SO that you come clean. Now you may ask who are you to decide if your Infidelity will make them leave you? I say make the best guess from past situations.
So – cheating is okay as long as your partner doesn’t know about it, or they aren’t caught/revealed? How do you feel about theft?
“Those that cheat aren’t usually doing it to hurt their SO.”
But that is the end result.
In my case, what ended my digression into limerence was the realization that if I let things continue in the direction they were heading, I *would* be cheating, and I *would* hurt my SO.
Cheating is thin ice, and the risks are way way higher than any perceived rewards.
Plus it’s wrong, so the risk/benefit analysis is moot.
“Heresy involves not only an error of the mind but also a stubborn deviation of the will.” – Torquemada
Infidelity is much the same. Maybe because heresy is theological infidelity?
Really interesting read! Agree with what you’ve written. I believe the most important thing for rebuilding your relationship after infidelity is taking responsibility and making a sincere apology. This helps convey that you’re aware of how wrong your actions were and that you’re willing to do what it takes to rebuild the relationship with your partner.