Another month flies by, which means it’s time for a visit to the LwL virtual coffeehouse.
The conversation starter for this visit is simple: the North American edition of my book is coming out in a couple of weeks.
Over ten years on from my own limerence “adventure”, the book that summarises everything I’ve learned in that decade is coming out in the US and Canada on February 3rd.
It wouldn’t have been possible without you fine folks of the livingwithlimerence.com community.
There are over 8 million words of commenter wisdom (and, let’s be honest, a fair amount of foolishness too) on the site now.
How’s that for lived experience!
So, many thanks to everyone who’s shared their story over the years, and helped us all make sense of the romantic madness that is limerence.
Finally, as an additional sweetener for those who pre-order ahead of the launch, I’ve written five bonus chapters on some especially tricky topics:
- Unrequited limerence
- Limerence for a mentor
- Limerence for a co-worker
- Limerence for a therapist
- Limerence for a married LO
To get access to those bonus chapters, just fill in this form with proof of purchase.
Pre-orders help a lot with visibility, bookshop orders and production planning. So this is a thank you for those who buy ahead.
And, for anyone who already completed the pre-order form for the UK edition of Smitten (which came out last April), rest assured I still have your details and will send the bonus chapters to you on US publication day.
Cheers!
I take responsibility for my share of the foolishness around here.
I am very happy to report that I am still mostly disinterested in LO, which is due to his own behavior, and not any strength of will on my part.
Trying to go NC had the opposite effect on me, so I just let LO hang himself with his own rude and thoughtless remarks.
Now, I will say that if LO were to suddenly shower me with kindness, I would probably have a serious relapse.
So I am maintaining hyper-vigilance.
I met this person H on a trip… it was really a few days when we interacted but during these few days I felt an instant spiritual connection. I was on a trip a lone without my husband, with whom I have a mostly happy relationship with ups and downs.
My problem is that when I came back I started thinking about H when I have sex with my husband, and it has improved A LOT, but now i fantasize about H when we do it, and I even cry sometimes, which i have told my husband is due to “hormones”
H ended our relationship since we are both married and he lives elsewhere, but I have not been able to stop thinking about him and constantly look for a reason to write to him.
Excellent. This is good news. It was also in my email. I have a birthday coming up so I will treat myself. Also looking forward to the bonus chapters. I will put in for the pre-order soon.
Btw, I have a hand in the foolishness too. Marcia made me do it.. 😆😂
@MJ.
I wanted to reach out to you to let you know that you are regarded with great affection (by me and by other readers at LwL I’m sure), foolishness or no.
I’m sorry if anything I’ve said to you has hurt your feelings or not been in the best possible taste.
Thank you for enjoying my exchanges over the years with other readers such as Snow and Limerent Emeritus, etc. Apologies to other readers such as Snow and Limerent Emeritus, etc, if they really were trying to communicate something serious. (Limerent Emeritus, I still have that lovely paragraph about beautiful reptiles you wrote me). 😉
Thank you for enjoying my personality in general. I didn’t know I’d end up being the person who kind of-somewhat-maybe brought people together.
Dr. L has done a great job of not micromanaging people on his blog when the situation isn’t one that calls for it. I think the foolishness we see at LwL is sometimes the same foolishness that most people express during primary school, high school, university days, etc. Pretty harmless stuff, but there’s a time and place for it. Maybe limerents, largely being introverts and whatnot, didn’t have a chance to discharge all of that foolish energy at a more appropriate stage in life?
Please stop sniggering about “discharge”. “Discharge” is not a naughty word.
At one point, I did a very funny if slightly cruel impression of Snow (the woman who’s terrified of the thought police, but then loves to portray herself as a perpetual victim of these allegedly omnipresent creatures that no one else on the site has ever actually met). Here’s my impression of Marcia: “I disagree. 🙂.” All of Marcia’s comments could be summed up as: “I disagree. 🙂.”
Marcia, I apologise to you in advance if you find my impression of you offensive. On the bright side, at least the impression isn’t verbose! (Two words and one emoji!) In my impression of you, have I not honoured the brevity-loving spirt of the woman?
I hate to admit it, but I have probably learned something from almost everybody here at LwL. Apart from Snow. I’ve definitely learned nothing from Snow. Forgive me one last witticism, but I think the reason I’ve learned nothing from Snow is because Snow clearly doesn’t understand “rosy-grown men”! 😜
In case nobody else ever notices the clever captions Dr. L likes to give his visuals, I better say it on behalf of the group: “Woot!”
Little Sammy,
“Here’s my impression of Marcia: “I disagree. 🙂.” All of Marcia’s comments could be summed up as: “I disagree. 🙂.””
Fair enough. 🙂
” In my impression of you, have I not honoured the brevity-loving spirt of the woman?”
Finally you display some reading comprehension skills 🙂
P.S. You didn’t offend me.
MJ,
“Btw, I have a hand in the foolishness too. Marcia made me do it.. 😆😂”
#Weasel 🙂
Speaking of Weasel.. 🙂
This was in my feed tonight and I thought it was funny. I figure this is how a date with LO would go. Especially the crying part..
Totally me.. 😂
https://youtu.be/ea9vQyGt7XQ?si=MVtL49hVdhoyM1tv
Marcia Sis,
What are made of “rosy-grown men? Have you met any in your life? Do they have a rosy cheek? 🤔
Marcia Sis,
“What are made of “rosy-grown men? Have you met any in your life? Do they have a rosy cheek? 🤔”
I don’t know what you’re talking about. MJ’s link? I didn’t look at it.
Didn’t really want to. I’m good. I’ve read enough on here about how middle-aged men think. I don’t need to know more. 🙂
Marcia,
Look up past MJ’s post and in the penultimate paragraph of Sammy’s post in this thread.
MJ’s short video clip about dating a 10 woman (to men’s eyes) is kind of funny, unreal! 😁 I’d never seen one before… 😆
Snow,
“Look up past MJ’s post and in the penultimate paragraph of Sammy’s post in this thread.”
I’m good.
“MJ’s short video clip about dating a 10 woman (to men’s eyes) is kind of funny, unreal! 😁 I’d never seen one before… 😆”
I’m good. I don’t think that kind of thing is funny. Rating people by numbers. I think it’s abhorrent. I never went out on the prowl with the mindset of “landing a 10.” I can’t even get my head around that kind of thinking. And I don’t want to be some guy’s consolation prize if he can’t get the 10.
Thank you Sammy. You’re too kind. I’ve just tried to keep it real. Even though I think I’m way out of the worst of my limerent spell, I’ve stayed around because I like the community thats been built up here over time. Some of you feel like real friends. So I appreciate that and for reading my endless rants about not getting cups of coffee with certain people.
Nothing you’ve posted comes to mind, where you were seriously offending me. I think the only close time was when I felt like you were offended by my finding your writing almost comedic in nature at times. Something about how you string your phrases together not intending to be funny, but you end up making me laugh anyway. Seriously though, you do understand this limerence thing and know well how to put it all into words.
As for Marcia, if she wasn’t disagreeing about something, where would us limerents get all this incredible knowledge? Dr. L says over 8 million words of commenter wisdom have been posted over the years in this forum. I’ll bet 4 million of those words belong to Marcia.. Her Ladyship.. 😆
Some really valuable information I’d like to share before it’s lost to obscurity…
Because I’m interested in limerence, r/limerence is one of the online communities dedicated to the subject I casually follow. There, the other day, David/Shiverypeaks wrote something that I thought was amazing:
“The way it [limerence] actually seems to work is that at the beginning, an LO gets associated with reward so you come to “want” the person (incentive salience). Then once you “want” them, you are emotionally dependent on whether you get into a relationship (so that the reward would be regular). Then uncertainty comes in, because when the reward is unpredictable incentive salience intensifies. And it probably gets more difficult for limerence to extinguish as this goes on.”
This is absolutely 100% what happened to me during my own limerence episode. I feel seen. I feel understood. Thank you, David.
David also pointed out that r/limerence is not a cheater’s forum. Most of the people who post there are lonely, traumatised, neurodivergent. And the experience of “falling in love” for them has proven to be a disaster. (All helpful context for anyone wondering why that particular support community exists).
A different poster on r/limerence wrote something that I thought explains really well why limerence might still prove alluring to people in midlife, despite the fact that people in midlife probably aren’t planning on having any more babies:
“It’s [limerence’s] more addictive than drugs, especially in middle age when you feel like life has made you more jaded and homogenized. To suddenly feel these waves of passion and euphoria again for anyone, fantasy or not, is pretty intoxicating.”
“To suddenly feel these waves of passion and euphoria again for anyone, fantasy or not, is pretty intoxicating.”
I completely agree. That may explain the intense glimmer I once felt. Nothing has ever come close to it. No other Woman has ever made me feel like that. If I became jaded and homogenized, then its no wonder I felt like it (limerence), was the greatest and at the same time, worst roller coaster ride ever.
Limerence is like alcohol; the more you partake the more it kills you from the inside. I should know on both counts.
@Marcia, MJ, Others.
I didn’t read the comments you left me, although I know your comments contained no malice and probably a great deal of love and support. My reason for not reading comments in general is that I am actually abnormally sensitive by nature, (always have been), and get hurt easily by things not intended to hurt me.
Even though I skip most comments, I still respond to people where appropriate. The reason I respond to people is I am a leader (albeit an extremely reluctant one). I am also an unconventional leader, an intuitive leader. Before I lead people, I have to close my eyes. I instinctively know where to “direct” people even if they don’t give me their exact coordinates. In fact, the less information people give me, the better. I’m like a dolphin – I navigate the social realm by echolocation.
I don’t feel ill will toward anybody at LwL. Not even the slightly surly Limerent Emeritus or the understandably frustrated Mila or the wonderfully exuberant Snow. All you guys remind me a lot of the kids I knew growing up here in Australia. Honestly, your personalities and attitudes aren’t new to me.
Marcia, you like to disagree with people. However, you’ve also asked people some really great questions along the way, and effectively destroyed the power of The Clique (the people who were treating LwL as if it were a cheater’s forum). So, when I call you out, I’m not telling you to stop participating. I’m saying … maybe slow down a tiny bit and listen a little more? Don’t be afraid of knowledge. 😉
Marcia, as an intuitive person yourself, you’ve probably already sensed this – I see life as a game of chess. You were the queen playing for the opposing side. In order to win the game of chess, I had to disarm you. My takedown of you wasn’t personal, but it was necessary for the community’s future. You were a very powerful queen, but you weren’t a very clever queen. You should have realised a palace revolution was under way, and the person who would usurp you was your most loyal aide. MJ proved to be a useful if completely unwitting accomplice.
Here’s the big problem with limerence as I see it. As a human being, I can’t make anybody love me. However, if I’m in limerence with LO, I am emotionally dependent on whether or not LO appears to love me. If I can’t gather enough evidence that LO loves me, then I’m doomed to spend most of the time feeling emotionally upset and even physically sick (because limerence is an addiction).
The tension is between (1) emotional dependency on a person and (2) not having any real say or control over how that other person sees me and treats me.
Most people who talk about limerence are talking to or talking about people who have had a really crummy experience of limerence. Like r/limerence, LwL isn’t a cheater’s forum. It’s a forum for people trying to get their lives back on track.
Do we all now understand Dr. L’s emphasis on purposeful living? 🙂
I forgot how he actually worded it, but in an exchange I had with Speedwagon early on in my time here, I mentioned something to him about the married men here with younger LOs. I think I was discussing that I was somewhat jealous because they all seemed to be in a better place than I was emotionally. Being that they all were having real interactions with their LOs and I was somewhere lost on Fantasy Island.
His response was real and down to earth. He basically said that I shouldn’t sweat it. That the married men here weren’t having any better of a time in dealing with their LEs than I was. That it isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. At the time, I didn’t get it but now that I’m not as infatuated or deep in the woods as I was, I now overall see it as the crummy experience he was talking about.
I wish there was a way I could go back and find all the posts by author. I would love to read again about all the struggles I was having then versus now..
MJ,
I think I basically agree with Speedwagon.
From my lifelong experience with limerence, both as an unmarried and married man, I would say the the best thing is not to be limerent at all. If you have to be limerent to someone, it should be towards your SO, but that is not something I have experienced, so I won’t speak to hat, as others have.
Returning to your original question, as to who is happier, I would say that as a person, I have generally been happier being married, for a whole host of reasons. However, having an LO, while married, regardless of the age of LO, brings its own set of complications and added guilt and shame, along with occasional feelings of being conflicted. When unmarried, I found that some of the best ways of ending one LE is to either transfer to another LE, which is fraught with its own dangers, or a new relationship, which can be trememdously uplifting and usually ends the old LE. When in a marriage, at least one where the intention is to strengthen it, neither a new LE nor a new relationship is a great idea.
By the way, all LEs involve being “lost on Fantasy Island,” whether there are real interactions or not; I find that a big part of recovery (although I have done plenty of backsliding and climbing back), is coming to this realization.
I have I few other thoughts on this as well that I’ll return to when I have more time — I about to go on a trip with my SO.
Good luck to you.
Sammy,
“I’m saying … maybe slow down a tiny bit and listen a little more? Don’t be afraid of knowledge. 😉”
When I’m actually offered “knowledge,” I’ll take it. 🙂
I don’t have a flurry of comments from posters offering me help. Outside of Snow. She’s really the only one who has.
I don’t really have anything else to add to this site. Which isn’t to say I’ll never pop up here and there, like LE. But it is TTMO. Time to move on.
Can’t you feel it?
Marcia Darling,
It was YOU who has patiently, benevolently brought one of my legs from the Stone Age to 21st century America … 😀 I’m still culturally ignorant like a toddler who just waned off diapers. It’s inevitable that I’ll have accidents here and there… Perhaps I should learn from some Indian women who wear Sari without panties ❓🤔
Good lucks to your upcoming dating and let us know of good or bad or neutral experiences, so we could always learn from Marcia’s new insights 👁️ . Please be watchful of our one shared habit: mental OCD.
Snow,
“Perhaps I should learn from some Indian women who wear Sari without panties”
Do they? I didn’t know that.
“Good lucks to your upcoming dating and let us know of good or bad or neutral experiences, so we could always learn from Marcia’s new insights .”
Thank you. I am deeply ambivalent about it. I want it to just show up at my door. There’s something undignified about hunting it down. I’m a lazy person socially. 🙂
“Please be watchful of our one shared habit: mental OCD.”
I shall. 🙂
Marcia,
“Do they? I didn’t know that.“
That’s what a collage classmate told me after she visited India, maybe just some areas. I never been to that country before, where there is supposed to be a lot of spirituality or New-Age stuff.
“I am deeply ambivalent about it. I want it to just show up at my door. There’s something undignified about hunting it down. I’m a lazy person socially. 🙂”
Your “it” here means insights? I don’t think anyone is “hunting”insights down, they just naturally come with experiences, don’t they?
But your “it” and my “it” could be similar or different after going through a same experience, right? Can we say that an experience/insight is also a mirror to our personality traits❓
Snow,
“Your “it” here means insights? I don’t think anyone is “hunting” insights down, they just naturally come with experiences, don’t they?”
No. “It” meant men. Dating and men.
Lady Marcia,
“I am deeply ambivalent about it. I want it to just show up at my door. There’s something undignified about hunting it down. I’m a lazy person socially. 🙂”
Don’t you miss Homer’s era when suitors just gather in your (Penelope) house to be chosen, even after your son has grown to be an adult? And if you’re a “Helen of Troy”, you could even stimulate nations’ vigor and economy when they go to war for your honor⁉️ 😆
Now, look what the West has done: after the first feminism movement , women have raced out to bring home bread and still dominantly take care of babies; after the 2nd feminism, women have zoomed through not only bread-winning and baby-raising, but also MEN/husband-hunting; what a fair, 🆓, brave new world we are living in ⁉️🙄
I want to ride my Tardis to Homer’s era or to be reincarnated into a puppy in Shangeri-La to be cared by a loving 🥰 mommy/daddy.
Socially, I was/am a sloth, and will be sleeping from 🌄 to 🌅 until the “Judgment Day”… Your ladyship, I’m weary of this modern living… 🌊
Snow,
“Now, look what the West has done: after the first feminism movement , women have raced out to bring home bread and still dominantly take care of babies; after the 2nd feminism, women have zoomed through not only bread-winning and baby-raising, but also MEN/husband-hunting; what a fair, 🆓, brave new world we are living in ⁉️”🙄
I certainly wouldn’t want to go back to a world before feminism, where options for a woman were either to get married/have children or live with her family for her entire life. I guess a third choice would be to join the nunnery.
“Don’t you miss Homer’s era when suitors just gather in your (Penelope) house to be chosen, even after your son has grown to be an adult? ”
That sounds good. If they could just line up against my living room wall so I can make my pick. And then if I end up not liking choice #1, choice #2 is waiting, on stand by. 🙂
“Thank you. I am deeply ambivalent about it. I want it to just show up at my door.”
“That sounds good. If they could just line up against my living room wall so I can make my pick. And then if I end up not liking choice #1, choice #2 is waiting, on stand by. 🙂”
Marcia
I’ll be right over. I won’t worry about being #2 because I know I’ll be #1.
Even if I was 2nd choice I’d be ok with it too. I’ll be 2nd. Fools don’t mind.. 😁😆
MJ,
Ummmm … you wouldn’t be on the wall at all. We’ve talked about this. 40 to 45 is the age range.
You have your preferences; I have mine. 🙂
“40 to 45 is the age range.
You have your preferences; I have mine.”
Marcia
True but I can still pass for looking 45.. I’m ageless.. Looks count.
MJ,
True but I can still pass for looking 45.. I’m ageless.. Looks count.
Oh, they definitely do but I picked 40 to 45 so the guy looked 30 to 35. 🙂 He has the sensibility (hopefully) of a grown man but still looks young.
I feel like you’re being coy about me not having proper sensibility.
(You wouldn’t be wrong to think that either.. 😂)
MJ,
“I feel like you’re being coy about me not having proper sensibility.
(You wouldn’t be wrong to think that either.. 😂)”
I wasn’t being coy. The comment wasn’t directed at you. You’re not on my list of potentials so you weren’t on my radar screen when I wrote it. 🙂
“But it is TTMO. Time to move on.
Can’t you feel it?”
Marcia
What are you, leaving me? You can’t leave. Nobody’s leaving this good old fashioned family Christmas. I didn’t give you permission to leave. 😂
Sammy,
“…slightly surly…”?
Well, I am the self-appointed “LwL Curmudgeon in Residence.”
In the future, I will strive to achieve “moderately surly.”
Younger LOs with limerent men are more reactive to the women of LwL (and women in general) than I think the gender swap situation would be. I think women are more reactive to age gaps. Well women are more reactive period ….. *dodges bullets*….. I mean, if I’m gonna admit I might have a new LO and it’s my dear Miss Norma, whose gonna do anything other than Dame Marcia giving me a “Gibbs” slap to the back of my head, just as an excuse to do so? (She’s been wanting to do it since the beginning.)
Age I think has more to do with biology when it comes to female LOs. My dear Miss Lovisa worded it so well along with Miss Limmy way back when I first came here. (Dame Marcia voiced her opinion too but she hates I keep bringing it up.) God/evolution made us hardwired for procreation. Men are fertile all their lives, women aren’t. LO (and my dear Miss Norma too) was alone, unsupported. Discarded by a soulless devil (my dear Miss Norma) and it’s instinctive for me to want to fill those lost roles in her life. Is it my responsibility? No. Do I care? No. Might you want to fill a father figure role in younger woman’s life too? Maybe.
Is it my fault I find purpose and worth in myself by being what I can be to the women in my life? Yes. But I don’t know how else to live. And limerence, ya’ll and Dr L are trying to teach me this. This is a burden I’ve been carrying all my life. I’m trying to learn from Miss Snow’s stoicism. LE’s practicality. My brother MJ’s ability to express his emotions. My dear Miss Norma’s unfathomable kindness. Hell we even need Sammy’s snarkiness. And my lost brother Frederico’s empathy. Miss Lovisa’s kindness and empathy and ability to always know the right thing to say. That’s the best part of this community; it’s all of us together. Helping fill the holes in each other’s psyche.
Miss Mila told me probably the most pointed thing I’ve ever heard in my life (I paraphrase) “Why think you need to rescue her from this new man (the man she married after her ex)? Wouldn’t it be better if LO is happy with him?” God bless you Miss Mila.
Oh and LaR, I don’t know where you get your sense of humor from, my man, but …. 😂
Catcyclist you got the best username here. The thought of a cat riding a bicycle is both scary and funny.
Adam,
Thanks for the shoutout!
I find that being a cat, especially on a bicycle, gives me great purpose in life, though perhaps not what Dr L had in mind!
Adam,
Just discovered that I have a few competitors / interests.
https://www.etsy.com/market/cats_riding_a_bike
https://www.icanvas.com/canvas-print/cat-on-bicycle-coc14#1PC6-40×26
I personally like the Coco de Paris lady cat. But I’m afraid she might be too pretty for me. I do not want to turn her into my next cat object (CO).
Haha I wouldn’t want our cat to get a bicycle. She’d be a Hell’s Angel on wheels. She’s hates when I pet and feed the other female street cats in the neighborhood. I’m just a manwhore to her. She won’t let me near her or even come close to petting her if she smells another female on me. 😂
“The “LO is a drug” perspective also helps make sense of how to manage limerence. You are probably not going to be able to be friends with your LO, just like an alcoholic will never be able to be a social drinker. This is especially true if your LO is manipulative or narcissistic or limerent for you too, because those guys will be enablers.” — Dr. L
If LO is a good one, or a dormant limerent, or a non-limerent, they might be frightened by a LE addiction, who wants to be treated like a “drug” instead of a rounded person? Who (good LOs) wants to enable or worsen limerents’ LE addiction? They probably would run over the hills for the sake of both sides.
I might be wrong that from my inadequate Eastern perspective/sense, there is a very subtle emphasis on the power of addiction (in public or here). Ample knowledge, sympathy, empathy, resources and (in)effective assistance are given everywhere in the West, but not enough individual persistent battles within the sufferers. Additions, especially behavioral ones, can and have to be fought from inside of sufferers first and foremost; and the war against LE addiction can be won based on Dr.L’s 👨🏻⚕️ own cases—
When available mutual limerents/LOs act on quickly (after Glimmer or Honeymoon stage), limerence would not develop into its personal addiction stage. When limerent or/and LO is unavailable, NC is the ONLY road leading to one’s mental and spiritual 🆓 (for one LE at least, hopefully once for all).
Personally, I do not believe a behavior addiction is inherited, a true story:
My paternal grandfather was an addicted gambler. The 1st time right before he was about coming to America, he happily went gambling and lost all the money saved up for the immigration. The 2nd time right before he was about to flee to Taiwan (from the communism) he joyfully went to gambling again and lost his possessions, including his wedding gift to my Granny, a gold watch ⌚️(never got it back).
My father boasted that he would win more if he gambled, but the RED system would not allow anyone to do it. I took him to a casino here once; before entering it he said, “I’m not going to play like your grandpa.” And he kept his words and only played $10 for the slot machine 🎰 and lost it all.
I went to US casinos 4 times (3rd time in LV for a conference); each time it bored my head off despite all the fancy, fake exteriors and interiors. In our (w/ SO) first visit to LV, I threw 4 quarters into a slot machine and actually got back 8 quarters — won $1; then we stopped. I never forget those gamblers’ faces (sitting in front of slot machines) — I was/am convinced that their souls were about entering Dante’s Inferno…⚫️
To me, casinos are the most depressive place in the world 🌍
Never understood gambling. When our in laws in the first year of our marriage visited Momma and I in St Louis wanted to go to the gambling boats. I sat out in the foyer at the bar and drank. Alcohol is an addiction I know. Gambling; get behind me Satan.
Some Asian people love gambling is because it’s related fatalism, it’s win or lose by lucks. By math probability/random laws, one could win very occasionally (like my $1). Casanova de Venice first invented lottery system, he’s great in Math.
Unless you play cards/poker games, which involve some math skills, the rest of games in any casino is just terribly boring to me!
Well, if my Grandpa did not lose it all in his first gambling, my Dad would not meet my Mom, there would not be ME today. Every fate/karma leads somewhere…
Health is considered the MOST important in Asia, not pleasurable, self-harmful indulgence. Majority of COO people never get into substance addictions that literally change one’s brain, such as alcohol or even marijuana. To them, taking them is just a stupidity.
Some greedy Asians smuggle those harmful substance into the West, because they see more people in the West (by proportion) are not strong enough to resist them. There is little sale within their own nations.
Some Asians would argue with you:
Losing money is to lose something external, and one can always make more money (my Grandpa did to repay his debts).
Messing up your brain is to lose something internal – your own physical and mental health, one can’t get damaged or dead brain and nerve cells back!
Gambling is still a behavioral addiction, a neuraltypical person can change or control it somewhat easier than any substance drug. I assume it would be the same with Limerence addiction (with neural-typical people)
With both alcohol and LE addiction in one person, I can’t tell what it’s like 😓 I pray for you, Adam 📿
My Ex Wife is a Casino Manager.
A really nice one, a few towns over from here. Your get behind me Satan comment makes me laugh.. 👹
Never stepped foot in a casino and never will. I worked in a convivence store out of high school for 6 years and I had seen so many of the same people waste so much money on lottery, that have no interest in gambling of any kind.
I was talking to the bartender who was telling me if you go out on the casino floor even if you don’t gamble you get free drinks. I was like, yeah get me drunk than get me to gamble and waste more money. Naw I’d rather pay for my drinks up front here. To which he said “you already know the drill.”
One of the best strip clubs I went to back in the day, had free domestic beer on Thursday nights. Which was also ironically, amateur night. Needless to say I did spend that money on the other things I came there for. I drained my account many times doing that and had many arguments with the little lady afterwards.
Bad luck and limerence has been the retribution. I swear it has. So deserved imo..
Strip clubs is another thing that never appealed to me. I mostly (the few times someone talked me into going) spent my time at the bar drinking.
Brother I got laid off today. Outta nowhere. I got funds to gather to be alright but damn it came out of left field. Been there 7 years and always gave my best. But I guess that doesn’t matter. Momma is not taking it well and is worrying too much. I am sure we will be alright. I was kinda on the fence of leaving anyway this last year so maybe this is the push I need. The last physical connection to LO. Maybe this is a good thing in disguise.
Today, maybe I am like Merle Haggard; think I’ll just stay here and drink. Probably not the most healthy solution, but meh
I hope you find a new job soon, Adam! May very well be a blessing in disguise, with how your coworkers kept mentioning your LO to you and keeping her in your thoughts. 😛
Hi Adam,
I’d like to echo Serial’s comments.
I too hav efound that merely going to where the LO used to be helpps sustain the limerence. New beginnings can help.
You will get through this.
Adam, I’m really sorry to hear that. Hope you can make some positive next steps once it has sunk in and you’ve had a bit of time to process it.
I’ve concluded that I’ll never put the lid completely on my LE as long as LO and I stay in the same workplace. It is under much better control than it once was, but it never totally goes away.
I know your LO left years ago but I’m sure the place is full of reminders of her. Hopefully this can be a blessing in that way.
🎩 Adam,
I’m very sorry to hear your sudden news, reminding me how I felt when I heard my same news over 2.5 years ago on Augest, 2023…. But it might be a blessing in disguise, just like mine, no one knows yet. Please keep the positive thinking!
Every fate leads somewhere – if my grandpa did lose all his money in gambling a week before immigrating to the US (through his job with an American big company), I’d never been born as Snow.
I wish you to land another job soon!
I feel like a bad provider now. I can’t do the one thing as a father and a husband that I should.
🎩 Adam,
You’re NOT a bad father or husband. The situation is NOT within your control, which can happen to anyone at any time!
Try to remember Stoicism and try anything that is within your power — Move on and look around for available professional opportunities!
Does your company give you some severance package?
I only hope that you would NOT reach that bottle so frequently… 🫂
Thank you all for your encouragement. I’ll first off file for unemployment and Monday start making calls to people I know within my field to see what I can find.
Our youngest is so much like his mother. He can read people well. I can’t hide my fear of the uncertainty of the future. He came into the room I was in while listening to music and he says “Dad are you doing okay?” I said “I’m fine.” He knows I’m lying.
Our oldest and his roommate are coming sometime next week to help me replace the alternator in my wife’s car as it’s the only vehicle we have now. He’s a very practical kid. Well he’s not a kid, he’s a man. And his roommate is a talented mechanic. And like a son to me.
My own parents and many of my wife’s family are prepared and told us they will provide any financial support if we need it. But that’s not their responsibility. It’s mine.
“I would only hope that you would NOT reach for that bottle frequently”
Miss Snow
I do too. Reminds me of a line in a song I can relate to every single word but this line stands out more than any other one.
“Don’t want to drink but it keeps coming around and around and around.”
Dear Alcohol — Dax
https://youtu.be/k5ZtZEtDEGo?si=7BCBbcWk2vwmUjpl
🎩 🥃 ,
Alcohol does not have feet like a LO, they can’t keeping coming around and around, only drinkers keeping reaching the bottle again and again. 😒
There is a line in the song you posted:
“Dear alcohol,
I found out you were even worse than what they said. Sometimes I try to remember the good times but you actually made me forget most of those memories instead.”
Whenever I read about addictions problems in the West, I feel “lucky” to have grown up in COO with its one positive element — train one’s will power since young, regardless of gender.
In my elementary school in the city (after my exile), we fifth graders (5 classes) were required to carry 5kg stuff (blanket or bricks) in a backpack and to walk 10-16 miles on hardened snow under – 20~ -30 C degree, purely for Will purposes! And no parents ever complained, perhaps all thinking it’s helpful/necessary.
It was still hard for me (frozen inside out and exhausted), but felt proud when the training was over, without any of us dropped out. No kids dared to escape.
Brother,
I am sorry to read about your layoff. 7 years is a good amount of time to have put in. Was this solely you or were others included in on this as well? I guess I figured with that kind of time you’d have better stability, but I forgot the line of work you’re in, so I don’t know.
Is there any chance you will go back?
I suppose there are pros and cons, if you’re thinking about it from the limerence angle. The triggers there seemed to affect you which I totally get, so perhaps being away will change matters.
Its too bad you don’t live closer my way. There are a lot of decent jobs around here that will hire middle-agers like us. I might be able to hook you up.
Stay in touch Brother. There’s a reason for everything.. 🤜🏻🤛🏻
I want to offer a small update. I have been pre-occupied with medical issues for the last couple of months. I have elevated liver enzyme levels, although I have no symptoms. My doctor was alarmed and ordered additional tests. The levels have come down somewhat, but are still slightly elevated.
I noticed that being preoccupied with my health has driven thoughts of LO from my mind. I still think about him, but less so.
I was thinking that I am just trading one crisis for another.
I hope it’s manageable! *hugs*
To Serial:
I think it’s manageable, but I have gotten myself perhaps more worried than I should. The fact that the doctors have no idea what’s going on is concerning.
Thank you for your nice comment.
Dear Norma
I hope the best for you and will pray for your speedy recovering and hope you find the answers that you don’t right now. Remember you still owe me a dance together. I’m holding you to that. 🙂 Take care dear.
Dear Adam:
I am available to dance anytime. I’m not actually having any symptoms other than profound anxiety.
Elevated liver enzymes are usually caused by drinking, I believe? Since I don’t drink at all, this is a puzzlement.
Best wishes to you Norma. Try not to worry but be demanding of your medics, as you are a priority!
I agree a crisis does focus the mind, and lessens other wandering thoughts including those of LOs.
Take care
To Imho:
I don’t know whether brooding about LO or brooding about my liver is more painful.
Next step is another MRI in mid-February.
Managing my anxiety is turning into a full-time job.
Hi Norma,
I’m sorry to hear about your new health issues with liver enzymes. I hope it is a relatively mild problem.
I had a similar problem a few decades ago. After I discontinued NSAIDS (ibuprofen, naproxen, and branded versions), the issue has rarely recurred. I’m not suggesting that this will necessarily work for you, but just recounting my experience.
Think of the bright side — reducing your thoughts about LO seems like a wonderful tradeoff to me!
Wish you the best.
To CatCyclist:
Thank you for your nice comments. I do take some Tylenol which may be contributing to the problem. The doctor is aware of this. Liver biopsy and Fibroscan both came out perfect.
So I am not sure what to think.
Hello everyone,
Apologies, as I am new to posting and not sure where to post this, I have bought the book though so maybe I will be forgiven, lol 🙂 Just wanted to put the following out into the ether, week 2 of no contact and I will never go back but somehow posting this helps:
How many times can I say goodbye to you? The one in my head and the one in my life? But the one in my head is the only one I can really talk to…the real one…the real you…is a stranger…the one in my head knows me better than anyone…the one in real life hardly knows me…the one in my head understands all that I feel…the real one is constantly confused by my behaviour…I know that neither of you exist…because truth be told you are both strangers to me…but it is to the one in my head that I want to say goodbye…even as I speak the words to the one in my life…
@Adam.
Here’s something that might lift your spirits. In his latest YT video “Don’t Cut Them Off: How to escape limerence without wrecking your life”, Dr. L quotes Frederico.
This is the quote from Frederico, which can be read and heard at around 2.40:
“That’s how I started, three years ago. The pleasure was sublime at times but I was kidding myself and it has wrecked my emotional life. I am now picking up the pieces.”
Recognise that voice? Does that sound like the Frederico we both knew? If so, exciting stuff, no? Like receiving a message from beyond the grave? Dr. L’s videos are starting to be more interesting than an episode of “This is Your Life”. 😜
Now we just need to teach MJ to say something beautiful, witty, and profound, so he too can enjoy his 5 seconds in the sun. Maybe we should wait until after he’s read his copy of “Smitten”? He’ll probably feel inspired after reading “Smitten”! 😉
Dr. L also uses a rather lengthy quote from Lost in Space. But I don’t think we should tell Lost in Space about his appearance in any Hall of Fame, because Lost in Space might get a big head if he finds out Dr. L has been quoting him.
Hot tip for the morbidly curious: the LIS quote can be found at 7.10.
The only thing Dr. L could quote me about would be how limerence felt upon first glimmer. I’ve mentioned this numerous times throughout my time here.
Cupid didn’t just shoot a silly little arrow at my heart. He thrusted an entire meteorite at me. It’s the best comparison I can make to how it made me feel internally towards LO. I swear I’ve never been the same since.
“Yeah they’re sharing a drink they call loneliness but it’s better than drinking alone.”
Adam,
For you today … and for anyone else that remembers the LwL / Amoors Inn Christmas 2024 send up of this song:
https://youtu.be/gxEPV4kolz0?si=Wgr4T_pAKp3kLjCi
The Cow Speaks to the Child
Evan Gill Smith
There’s no me without you,
says the cow in the sunlight
being looked at, being drawn
by the child with crayons.
Is the hill an almond? the child
wants to know. Is life irrefutable?
The start of ‘me’ is the start of
the ending of ‘you.’ See that hole
in your sock where
the cold can get through?
The child’s toe sticks
through the hole now.
Some philosophers grow ulcers
from eating loneliness.
There’s not much we know.
The cow’s tongue smacks its lips.
The child fills in its spots
with blue crayon and silence.
A dragonfly or not.
I See You in the Field of My Mind Baby Moo Cow
Matthew Siegel
Your look makes me want to jump off the roof
of the modern art museum. How am I supposed
to tell you about my life? Yesterday I saw a turtle
eat a dandelion flower up close. I cannot say what
this might mean to you. It was on my phone,
which is where I’ve been living lately. I can’t expect
you to understand. I cry openly and you stare at me
with big wet cow-eyes. I tell you what the abyss is like.
I heard breathing. It was my own. I wasn’t terrified.
Loneliness binds me to myself but I use my phone
as a wedge, use it to keep myself from touching who
I am. Nobody wants to grow up, not even children.
They just want to be taller because they hate being
looked down upon. What is it we see when we turn
and look back? Salt? Pepper? I’ll take both. No more
questions. All I want is to sit in this field with you,
little cow, this field I built in my mind. I pet you, make
little noises. You try to move away but I hold on to you,
I throw my arms around your neck. You drop
your dark head, continue chewing what you chew.
The Dreamer
Dulcie Deamer
The wave yearns at the cliff foot: its pale arms
Reach upward and relapse, like down-dropped hands;
The baffled tides slip backward evermore,
And a long sighing murmurs round the sands . . .
My heart is as the wave that lifts and falls:
Tall is the cliff—oh! tall as that dim star
That crowns its summit hidden in a cloud—
Tall as the dark and holy heavens are.
The sad strange wreckage of full many ships
Burdens the bitter waters’ ebb and flow:
Gold diadems, like slowly falling flames,
Lighten the restless emerald gulfs below;
And withered blossoms float, and silken webs,
And pallid faces framed in wide-spread hair,
And bubble-globes that seethe with peacock hues,
And jewelled hands, half-open, cold and fair.
Sea creatures move beneath: their swift sleek touch
Begets sweet madness and unworthy fire—
Scaled women—triton-things, whose dark seal eyes
Are hot and bloodshot with a man’s desire.
Their strange arms clasp: the sea-pulse in their veins
Beats like the surf of the immortal sea—
Strong, glad and soulless: elemental joys
Bathe with green flame the sinking soul of me.
Downward and down—to passionate purple looms,
Athrill with thought-free, blurred, insatiate life,
Where the slow-throbbing sea-flow sways like weed
Dim figures blended in an amorous strife—
I am enclasped, I sink; but the wave lifts,
With all its freight of treasure and of death,
In sullen foamless yearning towards the height
Where the star burns above the vapour-wreath;
And a deep sob goes up, and all the caves
Are filled with mourning and a sorrow-sound.
The green fire fades: I rise: I see the star—
Gone are the triton arms that clipped me round.
Hope beats like some lost bird against the cliff—
The granite cliff above the burdened wave,
Whose fleeting riches are more desolate
Than gems dust-mingled in a nameless grave . . .
When all the wordless thirsts of Time are slaked,
And all Earth’s yearning hungers sweetly fed,
And the Sea’s grief is stilled, and the Wind’s cry,
And Day and Night clasp on one glowing bed—
Oh! in that hour shall clay and flame be blent—
Love find its perfect lover, breast on breast—
When dream and dreamer at the last are one,
And joy is folded in the arms of jest.
Life
Edith Wharton
1862 –1937
Life, like a marble block, is given to all,
A blank, inchoate mass of years and days,
Whence one with ardent chisel swift essays
Some shape of strength or symmetry to call;
One shatters it in bits to mend a wall;
One in a craftier hand the chisel lays,
And one, to wake the mirth in Lesbia’s gaze,
Carves it apace in toys fantastical.
But least is he who, with enchanted eyes
Filled with high visions of fair shapes to be,
Muses which god he shall immortalize
In the proud Parian’s perpetuity,
Till twilight warns him from the punctual skies
That the night cometh wherein none shall see.
Snow Moon
Sven Rhoads
Been seeking a face I’ve seen in dreams
And from my birth you’ve always been there
Encased in the frost of security
Where no demons would even care
Been searching for reason in crimson streams
And always you’ve been watching me
Wandering alone through eternity
For the one who will set me free
I see colors across the sky
Among this frozen world
Snow moon by my side
Lighting the darkest reaches
I see the smile in the fire
Inside where eyes can’t see
Snow moon sitting on high
Guiding me where I long to be
Been wanting a place to call my home
And you have always lead the way
Every flake that comes to call
Is a moment to forge better days
The name I hear in the wind
The face I’ll never forget
The voice that constantly sings
From the first day that we met
The light that welcomed me
The baptism of icy water
The essence that made me see
All the beauty around each corner
The Full Snow Moon
The full snow moon will rise to see
what once were fields of hay,
She’ll gaze upon the barren rows,
snowed in from yesterday.
She’ll share her night with stars ablaze,
yet spreading little heat
To scarecrow, guarding fallow patch,
they’ll come as faint relief.
Where gobblers swarmed the woodland’s edge,
now nothing’s in its prime.
She’s much too late for deer and fawn
they’re bedded down this time.
O’er peaks she’ll rise then wander on
though smaller still as bright.
She’ll gaze upon the snow packed trees,
and shine the owls in flight.
In valley low the sleepy town,
dreams sweet of Summertime,
Yet steeple bells still glisten gold,
protected, they still shine.
The steam, now frozen in the lake,
bespeaks what used to grow.
The midnight dew – oppressive frost,
takes hold of all exposed.
Before the dawn she still must prod
the farmer from his dreams.
There’s cows to milk, the pigs need corn,
the work of winter scenes.
Then reverently she’ll shine her last
and leave behind the chill.
A glowing ball of vivid orange
she’ll set beyond the hill …
© 2008 Joy A Burki-Watson
Winter Moon
by Charles Nevers Holmes
Brightly the moon like a jewel is beaming,
White in the east, o’er a lone landscape gleaming,
Over the meadows and over the snow,
Glimmering, shimmering, silvery glow.
Low in the east, when the gloaming is ending,
Slowly this white winter moon is ascending,
Looming so large and appearing so nigh,
Satellite framed by a star-spangled sky.
High in the sky, with soft radiance teeming,
Nigh to the time when men, women, are dreaming,
Weird is her splendour on valley and hill,
Cold is her gleam upon river and rill.
Brightly the moon like a jewel is shining,
White in the west she is slowly declining;
Beautiful Moon!
Which beams gorgeous and grand
Over the homes of our own native land.
Brother
I’m thinking that all the $hit that’s been happening in the last four months or so is God testing me like Job. So I can come out stronger in the end. It’s just hard now. But I’m determined to get through this. I’ve got be strong for Momma. I can’t let her see me coming apart inside. I can’t let our son see me this way either.
I’m trying to practice Miss Snow’s stoicism and not let things I can’t control drag me down into the abyss. And concentrate on the things I can control in my life. And not feel ashamed to accept help from others. I just don’t want to be a burden.
The LwL community has been more than I could ever expect with their support. I miss Frederico and Miss Nisor. They always knew the right words. As so many of you still here do.
I successfully filed my UI case while I try to look for another job. So I’m not too worried about finances because I do want to work.
Thank you all for your support and kind words.
MJ, Momma introduced me to this song some time ago and I weirdly feel comfort in it as I try and find my purpose again as a father, husband and provider. Not sure why ….
Whose Gonna Fill Their Shoes — George Jones
https://youtu.be/vxHjRqnY7zA?si=kKph1cBCLSo6SWqP
You’re welcome Brother. I’m having my share of struggles too lately. I appreciate your friendship and anyone here who has shared with me over the years. The non-judgemental tone this forum takes is a reason I stay around.
Dear Adam:
I can only offer you words of love and kindness. I wish I knew how to get you a new job.
Dear Adam,
You sound like you’ve made up your mind to get through this and that’s so cool to hear. You’ve had an awful lot on your plate and I have been worrying a bit about you but you are sounding stronger today!
You know that people love to help, if they can, right? Like its actually a privilege to help someone out, especially when its someone you care about. So lap up any help that you can get right now and you can always pay it back later when someone is in need of your help.
You are a very good man, I wish you would believe that a little more.
All of my fingers and toes are crossed for an uptick in luck and whatever the Greater Power can do to improve things for you and Momma. Sending MAJOR virtual hugs from across the pond.
Bx
Bewitched
My sister in law (my wife’s sister) just called and is sending us money. Momma told her I felt guilty accepting help. And my sil told me (Momma had us on speaker phone) “I don’t care if you want it or not we are sending it to you so swallow your pride you stubborn old man.” Which is funny because my sil is older than me and my bil (her husband is even older than her and me.) I do love her but damn she knows how to rile me up. Accepting help is difficult for me. But I have to accept it for the sake of my family and forgo my pride. Thank you for your kind words. I feel like a good man now but I’ll try to.
I’m looking forward to our dance together Dear Norma.
Brother thanks for being here for me.
You’re welcome Friend,
Keep looking for work search. Something will come up. No its never easy and it would have been nice had your prior company inform before laying you off. You also should be able to file for unemployment no??
Yeah I’ve already filed my unemployment case and my previous employer isn’t fighting it. So we should be good. I just feel so purposeless. And when I feel purposeless I want to check in on LO but I haven’t. I’ve been occupying my mind with finding new work and projects I’ve been meaning to get to in the home. And that helps. And walks with music in my ears. Hope that your father and you are doing well. You truly are my brother from another mother. I’m glad fate met us together even if the commonality wasn’t favorable. Dr L and Mrs L are truly saints for us misguided limerents.
He is doing ok but never great. I’m trying not to be angry but some days are rough. Work keeps me busy and I try to keep a good balance. Things have improved with LF a little and my other co-worker friend is nice to be around.
We’re just being friendly at the moment. I’m not really all that emotionally invested yet, but I could be, if she would just keep coming out of her shell a little more. She’s definitely avoidant type. Somehow I just keep finding them, lol..
As for LO, I think she’s back on day shift. Haven’t seen her in awhile and a couple of her posts awhile back were about her hating working nights. I don’t really blame her though. Its not for everybody.
Adam, I’m sorry that you were laid off. I hope you find a job that pays well and that you like.
I LOVED reading that you had contact with your parents. THAT IS GOOD NEWS! How is it going?
In my church, we have a system in place to help people when they need it. Everyone fasts for two meals once a month and then donates what they would have spent on those meals to a “fast offering” fund. Those funds are used to help people in the congregation when something happens like a layoff. Maybe your church has a similar program.
Best wishes!
Miss Lovisa
Good to hear from you again. I miss you being here.
I’m trying to get up the courage to call my sister who I haven’t talked to in years. It’s funny how things like this make you remember what’s important in life. I talked to my brother in law yesterday because my sister was working at the time I texted her.
We’ve got food and what not but no transportation. Our oldest boy and his roommate are going to help me get my wife’s car running so I can start applying for jobs. So between unemployment and money we have and me wife’s and my own family willing to help, we’ll be ok.
I’m gonna reach out to church via their website so they know why I’ve missed services. But thankfully I can watch the pastors past sermons on their website too.
I hate asking for help but everyone keeps giving it to us. I should be able to do this on my own. My family depends on me. And I can’t. And it feels awful.
Adam, I hate asking for help, too. It is humbling to be on the receiving end of charity. I’m glad that you have resources and a plan. I hope this struggle leads to stronger family connections.
I don’t have anyone else to talk to, so I am going to talk to you guys.
I am disabled and rely on three small sources of income. The smallest of these is my alimony. All three payments come in like clockwork every month, but this month, the alimony was MIA. I hate having to contact my Ex for anything. He and I rarely communicate. He can be very unkind at times.
Anyway, I was wondering if he had suddenly decided to cut me off? I had all sorts of scenarios going through my head.
I e-mailed him and asked him if there was a problem? He wrote back within two hours and sent the payment. Turns out, he’s on a vacation and thought he had it set up for an automatic payment, but it didn’t go through for some reason.
I am reminded of Occam’s Razor–the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
I know that he travels constantly, so was not surprised to learn that he is away until the middle of the month. You would not believe the catastrophizing fantasies I have been having. All incorrect, of course.
Dear Norma,
Catastrophising is something that I can relate to. I think lots of us can – especially when you throw LO into the mix.
But I think its great that you’ve looked back and recognised it, this time. Maybe catastrophising goes hand-in-hand with being an anxious person (something that also plagues me, so I can relate).
I’m glad this all turned out to be a simple and non-dramatic explanation.
And that you wrote a post that wasn’t about LO.
Nice one!
To Bewitched:
Thank you for your nice message. I was toying with calling my lawyer, and wondering if his fees were north of $650 per hour by now?
I am glad that I wrote my Ex as early as I did. He corrected the problem immediately.
Yes, I do have a life outside of LO. I just wrote a lengthy post about my liver. It’s captivating reading.
He he, you’re funny.
Thanks for the laugh, Norma. It lifts the mood and don’t we all need that, sometimes.
To Bewitched:
I try to be entertaining. I need to earn my keep around here.
I purchased the book on Audible and then realized they had to be a hardcopy. I purchased a hardcopy within the promotional time and it just arrived. I went into try to get the other promotional free chapters and it said the promotion has expired. Since I did purchase two versions of the book is it possible that you would please accept a late application warmest regards., Karl
Hi Karl,
Of course. Thanks for buying the book (twice!). I’ll send an email to the address used in the comment.
Best wishes,
Tom
Lady Marcia,
You got married in my first dream last night! 💍:
Marcia suddenly got married! The wedding was in a small village in France, and I arrived there late. You were 48 and looked the exactly same just as the mental image in my head (in your 20s). You were wearing a laced, heel-length white wedding dress with a white flower hairpiece). There were two groups over 20 people, crowded inside of a small farm house with just two or three rooms. The groom was absent when I got there.
I pulled you aside and asked why you got married so quickly. You said you could not wait any longer, (might said that the pressure was high). I asked whether anyone from LwL was there, you said a couple of women (two names I forget now) were there and I did not know them in LwL. None of your dudes/brothers was there, very disappointing. I couldn’t find anyone to chat with.
After I wandered in the two small rooms for a bit, I came outside standing on a top of a small hill. Then I saw your groom walking up towards the house. He was a 28, athletic Asian man with an army-cut hair! He looked macho and even insolent, I was shocked 😮. I couldn’t understand why you’d agree to marry such an uncouth man!
Then, when you went to attend other guests, I slipped into a bathroom in a messy utility room, getting ready to leave….
I woke up, it was 4:30pm, and rolled back immediately into 2nd dream:
I went to Paris and their subway was messed up that day, the trains were everywhere, delayed, docked in massive lines. I was asked whether I wanted to hop on a train to futuristic park (?). I hopped on it as the last passenger, and somehow landed in this super clean, huge Sci-fic building and saw a couple of young, very cold-looking men in doctor’s gown walking around. I wanted to run away….
Then in a big clean ward inside the building, I bumped into my favorite colleague from COO (she died of a cancer 11 years old in reality, I saw her a month before she passed in a hospital, very sad). I was thrilled. But she told me that her daughter (who has been living in Paris in reality and I visited her in 2017) got a cancer. So she’s spending the remaining time with her daughter whose head got shaved due to chemo, walking in and out of the ward. I again felt depressed… 😔
I can’t remember what else happened before I woke up and remembered it’s my French gf’s birthday today. I hope she has moved back to their old stone house after her hubby’s LO was “kicked out” over a month ago.
Snow,
“Marcia suddenly got married! The wedding was in a small village in France, and I arrived there late. You were 48 and looked the exactly same just as the mental image in my head (in your 20s). ”
I’m liking the second part of the dream. Where I look young. But why do I have to get married? Can’t me and this macho dude just hook up? 🙂
“None of your dudes/brothers was there, very disappointing. ”
Yeah, sounds about right. They’re all talk. 🙂
“He was a 28, athletic Asian man with an army-cut hair! He looked macho and even insolent, I was shocked 😮. I couldn’t understand why you’d agree to marry such an uncouth man!”
I want uncouth. 🙂
Sorry the second dream was depressing.
Lady Marcia,
My last night dream involved a cycle of possible life and death…
“I’m liking the second part of the dream. Where I look young. But why do I have to get married? Can’t me and this macho dude just hook up? 🙂”
I’m amazed at my own mental images of you (plural), they stay the same in my waking hours and dreams! 😳 I think one day if I meet you in person, I may be “shocked (due to unfamiliarity)” to the fainting point, when I’d really need some smelling salt… 😇
I was just transcribing my dreams as much as I could remember! In the dream, I asked you the exactly same question, “Why are you in a hurry to get married?” you replied you couldn’t wait any longer. In the dream I thought you might want to have babies soon, since you still looked in your 20s. 😀
“Yeah, sounds about right. They’re all talk. 🙂”
Even my dreams knew well a truth of your dudes/brothers … 🙄 I was upset for you at the wedding 😏
“I want uncouth. 🙂”
At one point I was thinking in the dream: I never heard that Marcia liked Asian macho young men, who looked like a soldier (at least no mustache), while you looked so vivacious and ladylike, he’s not a match! 😤 that’s probably why I ran away after throwing him a glance and before he reached to the top of the hill.
“Sorry the second dream was depressing.”
A dream is so often totally opposite of its realistic facts. I was glad to see my mentor colleague vivacious in the dream; but upon waking up, our last farewell 11 years ago made me sad again (made me depressed for weeks back then). It’s the worst to silently bid a goodbye to a dear friend in their deathbed – luckily not her daughter in last night’s dream.
I finished watching Henry Jame’s 13 mini dramas (“Affairs of the Heart”) last night. The last one, “Miss Tita” is so depressing (probably triggered my dreams), I like “Leonie” best, in which a play (within the HJ’s play) imitates and transcends the protagonist’s reality (of a LE story)…
While appreciating arts, one can temporarily “escape” depressive parts of life, ie. bad news everywhere, or a death on the screen or in reality. Only when creating one’s own “arts” visually or verbally, one can be lifted up spiritually, or psychologically as if death 💀 did not exist at all…☄️
Miss Snow,
“I think one day if I meet you in person, I may be “shocked (due to unfamiliarity)” to the fainting point, when I’d really need some smelling salt… 😇”
You’d be shocked because I do not look like I’m in my late 20s. 🙂
“In the dream I thought you might want to have babies soon, since you still looked in your 20s. 😀”
Looked in my 20s but was, in your dream, in my late 40s. The time for babies had passed. 🙂
“Even my dreams knew well a truth of your dudes/brothers … ”
Why would I care they blew off my wedding if I was getting married to a hot, 20-something man?! 🙂
“I never heard that Marcia liked Asian macho young men, who looked like a soldier (at least no mustache), while you looked so vivacious and ladylike, he’s not a match! 😤”
It’s not necessarily how I would describe my type … but I’m open to the idea. 🙂
” It’s the worst to silently bid a goodbye to a dear friend in their deathbed – luckily not her daughter in last night’s dream.”
Is the daughter sick irl?
“I finished watching Henry Jame’s 13 mini dramas (“Affairs of the Heart”) last night. The last one, “Miss Tita” is so depressing (probably triggered my dreams), I like “Leonie” best, in which a play (within the HJ’s play) imitates and transcends the protagonist’s reality (of a LE story)…”
I’ll have to watch that. I did end up reading “The Jolly Corner.” It’s not an easy read. Like Proust … long sentences, a lot of commas, a lot of subordinate clauses and parenthetical phrases. I really like the idea of the story. At the end, she tells him she’s seen his “other self” and pities him. And he’s resentful of that. And she says, “He isn’t you.” It’s a very ambiguous ending, but I like that.
Miss Marcia,
“You’d be shocked because I do not look like I’m in my late 20s. 🙂”
No, I didn’t mean that. I meant that my mental image of you might be quite different from your realistic look. I’m so familiar (attached to) chatting up with your mental image, but not your realistic appearance. So I may feel like seeing an alien when you actually stand in front of me, so “strange” or “dissonant” that I might pass out…
“Looked in my 20s but was, in your dream, in my late 40s. The time for babies had passed. 🙂”
Dreams are rarely logical, in which a woman might be able to produce babies even if she’s in her 80s or fly among stars like a spaceship…
“Why would I care they blew off my wedding if I was getting married to a hot, 20-something man?! 🙂”
In the dream, I felt we are all your friends; if I rushed to your wedding, they might be happy to attend it, too. But as I was walking from one room to another one, I was thinking, “even if they’re here, I still couldn’t tell — I’ve never seen them in person!” That’s why I asked you first, and you told me there were only two other female LwLers (in their 30s & 40s) present.
“It’s not necessarily how I would describe my type … but I’m open to the idea. 🙂”
That’s what I thought, your groom didn’t look your type at all. His appearance did not even fit in that French remote village❗️You must be in desperation to marry one! 🧐
”Is the daughter sick irl?”
Not at all! Healthy and still working in Paris as an engineer in managing water quality. She’s the only girl I knew who had a sleep-walking condition when she’s a kid (5-6 yrs?), due to her nerve system. It lasted just a couple of years but scared everyone around her (an older sister and a younger brother).
It’s said/rumored that you cannot, should not ever wake up a sleep walker in the middle of their unconscious “walking /doing things” (ie. weight lifting or swinging on a metal bar – Mom’s one classmate) or they’d be frightened to death.
“I’ll have to watch that.”
These 13 mini dramas are all about romance, a couple of them is a bit “strange”/bizarre… I like the most of them — their ideas and sentimentalities.
“I did end up reading “The Jolly Corner.” It’s not an easy read. Like Proust … long sentences, a lot of commas, a lot of subordinate clauses and parenthetical phrases. “
Wow, congratulations! I don’t like “ghostly” stories, even if it’s psychologically symbolic. I have little patience nowadays in reading or listening to Proust, except his quotes.
“I really like the idea of the story. At the end, she tells him she’s seen his “other self” and pities him. And he’s resentful of that. “
How did she see his”other half”❓What exactly this “other half” symbolizes in Corner? Jung thinks each of us has multiple facets – light and shadow; and one is constantly evolving, particularly through dramatic events like an LE.
I think that the most important is that ONESELF accepts one’s shadow partss— “other halves” and embrace one’s own multiple facets. Otherwise, one can’t integrate his/her self, and would have a hard time in building healthy friendship or relationship with (an)other.
“And she says, “He isn’t you.” It’s a very ambiguous ending, but I like that.”
So she’s denying his “other half”, which never went to Europe but stayed in America?
Miss Snow,
” I’m so familiar (attached to) chatting up with your mental image, but not your realistic appearance. ”
Hmmm … how I picture you … a slender Asian lady; about 5’5″, bobbed, black, shiny hair with bangs; small features; beautiful skin. Nicely dressed but not flashy.
“So I may feel like seeing an alien when you actually stand in front of me, so “strange” or “dissonant” that I might pass out…”
I hope there wouldn’t be that much dissonance. 🙂
“That’s why I asked you first, and you told me there were only two other female LwLers (in their 30s & 40s) present.”
That sounds about right. 🙂 As we’ve … um … learned on here … most of the male posters are only interested in women if there’s a little more to the friendship than friendship. So if I’m off with my young, stud lover … there’s no incentive for them to show up at the wedding. 🙂
“You must be in desperation to marry one! 🧐”
Maybe I just got a new type. Sometimes the men I find appealing can surprise me. If you had shown me a picture before I met them, I would have said, “Forget it. Not my type.” But meeting them in person … it was a different story.
“Not at all! Healthy and still working in Paris as an engineer in managing water quality. She’s the only girl I knew who had a sleep-walking condition when she’s a kid (5-6 yrs?), due to her nerve system. It lasted just a couple of years but scared everyone around her (an older sister and a younger brother).”
I’m glad she’s not sick. Sometimes sleep-walking can be psychological trauma.
“I don’t like “ghostly” stories, even if it’s psychologically symbolic. ”
I liked it, though it does make one yearn for the simplicity and directness of Hemingway’s prose when one reads James!
“How did she see his”other half”❓What exactly this “other half” symbolizes in Corner?”
It’s up for interpretation. Could be the person he could have become had he stayed, the person he will become in the future, the person he actually is right now or a part of himself he’s repressing.
” Jung thinks each of us has multiple facets – light and shadow; and one is constantly evolving, particularly through dramatic events like an LE.”
I think that’s what limerence does. It taps into a part of ourselves — or another self — that we’ve been repressing.
“So she’s denying his “other half”, which never went to Europe but stayed in America?”
No, she’s accepting it. I interpreted it as … she’s accepting the uglier parts of him, as the “other self” was scary-looking, missing fingers. And he was resentful that she accepted the other self because he can’t accept him. She saw his other self in her dreams. But, again, all of this is up for interpretation.
You said you liked when messages weren’t obvious in art. I think this story is a good example. It treats the reader as having intelligence. Not spoon-feeding a moral lesson.
Miss Marcia,
“Hmmm … how I picture you … a slender Asian lady; about 5’5″, bobbed, black, shiny hair with bangs; small features; beautiful skin. Nicely dressed but not flashy.”
The thing with appearance is that even if you have exact physical measurements, the person’s look could be an ocean apart from your imagination, because there is no visceral knowledge of the person. With the same set of feature description, you and I probably would get two different mental images of the same person — words paint different images in different mind or personality, and a variety of people can say similar/same words, especially superficial ones.
“I hope there wouldn’t be that much dissonance. 🙂”
I really pray so. 🛐 I mentioned that I traveled to CA and two continents to meet 5 posters in my chatroom (one from app) a long while ago, they looked so different from my mental images based on their words that I shot down that room afterwards. Later, I realized that I felt I was “cheated” to “attach” my emotions, friendship, and hope to “wrong/nonexistent” people.
“That sounds about right. 🙂 As we’ve … um … learned on here … most of the male posters are only interested in women if there’s a little more to the friendship than friendship. So if I’m off with my young, stud lover … there’s no incentive for them to show up at the wedding. 🙂”
Are you saying that male posters here all have interests in you “more than the friendship than friendship”? They’d not even show up in your wedding after getting acquainted and your help for so long? Isn’t that selfish or even “cruel”❓🧐 Friendship is so undervalued in the West, 😞 which my head still can’t wrap around it. *sigh*.
“Maybe I just got a new type. Sometimes the men I find appealing can surprise me. If you had shown me a picture before I met them, I would have said, “Forget it. Not my type.” But meeting them in person … it was a different story.”
I can be eclectic in tastes for objects or superficial friendships, not a desired BP.
“I’m glad she’s not sick. Sometimes sleep-walking can be psychological trauma.”
Her older sister has Down syndrome (with an 8 yrs old intelligence all her life), which might triggered her at a crucial age.
“I liked it, though it does make one yearn for the simplicity and directness of Hemingway’s prose when one reads James!”
I dislike Hemingway’s simplicity, either. We humans are much more complex; I’d rather read Henry James or Proust.
“It’s up for interpretation. Could be the person he could have become had he stayed, the person he will become in the future, the person he actually is right now or a part of himself he’s repressing.”
Yes, it could be one or all of them. It’s fascinating to have so many possibilities❗️
”I think that’s what limerence does. It taps into a part of ourselves — or another self — that we’ve been repressing.”
TOTALLY! I would not use “another self” here, but some of ourselves that are repressed or hidden unknown. My latest one triggered that deeply rooted cptsd and Longing; without getting rid of them — filling up that “hole” in the soul, I don’t think/believe I’d ever be capable of getting a healthy relationship.
“No, she’s accepting it. I interpreted it as … she’s accepting the uglier parts of him, as the “other self” was scary-looking, missing fingers. “
She still loves him and has an open heart/mind.
“And he was resentful that she accepted the other self because he can’t accept him. She saw his other self in her dreams. But, again, all of this is up for interpretation.”
That probably describes Henry James himself, it’s Jungian stuff.
“You said you liked when messages weren’t obvious in art. I think this story is a good example. It treats the reader as having intelligence. Not spoon-feeding a moral lesson.”
Yes, I enjoy such “elusive” stories at times with guesses and detailed analysis; while on other times, I like some ethical, psychological lessons just to relax my mind.
Miss Snow,
“With the same set of feature description, you and I probably would get two different mental images of the same person — words paint different images in different mind or personality, and a variety of people can say similar/same words, especially superficial ones.”
True. But do you have bobbed hair? Just answer me that. 🙂
” Later, I realized that I felt I was “cheated” to “attach” my emotions, friendship, and hope to “wrong/nonexistent” people.”
I’m not following you. I’m not sure how appearance would kill a friendship. Now, when I met that young guy for our date, I did have trouble making conversation. (I knew what he looked like already, having met him on one of those sites.) We had good conversations in messaging and texting, but in person we did not have good conversational rapport. There was something kind of hesitating and stilted. And I found his manner to be abrupt, which was off-putting. I could see that happening, if you met someone in person who you’d only previously known online or in messaging. Maybe you didn’t “click” as people. But if we’re friends and not dating, I don’t see why being surprised by what they look like would matter.
“Are you saying that male posters here all have interests in you “more than the friendship than friendship”? ”
It was a joke. I was kidding about the male posters on here. But I do think, IRL, that men usually only befriend women they have some sexual/romantic interest in. As a general rule. I wish that were different.
“Friendship is so undervalued in the West, 😞 which my head still can’t wrap around it. *sigh*.”
You are preaching to the choir.
“I can be eclectic in tastes for objects or superficial friendships, not a desired BP.”
Objects as in LOs ? It happened with a guy I used to work with, years ago. I’d known him for years, although we’d barely interacted. One day he approached me and started flirting with me, and it flipped the switch. I remember thinking afterward: Oh, that was interesting. I definitely developed a crush, but he was not my usual physical type at all.
“Her older sister has Down syndrome (with an 8 yrs old intelligence all her life), which might triggered her at a crucial age.”
Yes, maybe the stress in the family dynamic, having to care for a child with some disabilities.
“I dislike Hemingway’s simplicity, either. We humans are much more complex; I’d rather read Henry James or Proust.”
I disagree. When reading the James’ story, I remember thinking, several times: Will you just get to the point already! 🙂
“Yes, it could be one or all of them. It’s fascinating to have so many possibilities❗️”
Exactly. There are many more possibilities, I’m sure. Those are the ones I came up with off the top of my head.
“TOTALLY! I would not use “another self” here, but some of ourselves that are repressed or hidden unknown. My latest one triggered that deeply rooted cptsd”
I can relate. That’s what LO-lite did. I don’t really want to get into it here, but he tapped into something.
“Yes, I enjoy such “elusive” stories at times with guesses and detailed analysis; while on other times, I like some ethical, psychological lessons just to relax my mind.”
I like something that challenges me, like the James story, both in terms of reading it and interpreting it. And other times, I like something light and fun. Which is just enjoyable.
Speaking of which, I’m a little over halfway thrown the Lawrence book. I like his writing. It’s very repetitive in terms of the words he’ll use, even in one sentence or in a group of sentences. But it creates a kind of cadence as you’re reading. Although I will admit I’ve never read the words “flank” and “loins” this many times in my life. 🙂
Lady Marcia,
I finished watching the movie (2nd time) “Being Julia” and am feeling much better. The masterful, theatrical revenge casted on those vain, flashy opportunists is so delicious, which cheered me up. Masterful arts/performance do transcend reality (sometimes so ugly)‼️
“ But do you have bobbed hair? Just answer me that. 🙂”
No, I don’t. My hair is below the shoulder line. Bobbed hair never looked good on me (tried before).
“I’m not following you. I’m not sure how appearance would kill a friendship. “
Because I was making friendship with the person wearing my mental images of them, not realistic them — just like in LE. So when I met them, the dissonance was beyond my ability to handle. The rapport between person and me was so little/poor, that I just wanted to forget I had ever talked with them in my chatroom. Verbal “knowledge” of someone can be very different from visceral impression of her/him.
Also, back then, my reading/comprehending skills in English and the culture were very limited (hadn’t gone GS in writing yet), I could hardly understand between lines. So my mental images of them were quite off. I was not “cheated” by them, but my own wishful thinking and envisions. One’s imagination is very tricky/dangerous to believe/follow❗️One needs reality to support/back up one’s thoughts and emotions, unless one is writing a fiction or an epic poem from beginning to end.
“I could see that happening, if you met someone in person who you’d only previously known online or in messaging. Maybe you didn’t “click” as people. “
“Didn’t click” is the apt word choice here.
“But if we’re friends and not dating, I don’t see why being surprised by what they look like would matter.”
It’s not about pure looks, it’s if “they click” as potential dates, lovers, or just friends. There was low/no glimmer/click. Later, I did sort out of concrete reasons behind my disappointments with ALL of them.
My glimmer 👁️/click had initiatively logical/rational components, but I just didn’t know what they were immediately. I don’t have time to go over 5 sets of the reasons here. Let’s just say that personality and compatibility (with us) show on people’s aura and appearance (not physical features), especially in their eyes.
With your ladyship, I just imagine you as Helen of Troy if we don’t ever meet in person. If we plan to meet, based on Stoical rules, I’ll have to picture you as Frankenstein’s granddaughter🫂 , so I can’t get disappointed at all‼️💃
Please don’t be offended, you know I still CAN’T judge your appearance objectively… you can imagine me as a Frankenstein’s Asian granddaughter with bobbed hair… it’s all about subjectivity ❗️🤭
“But I do think, IRL, that men usually only befriend women they have some sexual/romantic interest in. As a general rule. I wish that were different.”
I sense you’re most likely right here, but there is always exception in any social matter, right? I know myself can befriend men with zero/little sexual/romantic interest (if the glimmer never took place), under the condition that they’re curious, cultured, humorous and erudite.
I so value and appreciate camaraderie (not ravels) at intellectual and artistic levels. But some men in the past just assumed or even insisted that I was interested in them more than a genuine friendship. I couldn’t convince them otherwise, even if I swore. Not sure if it’s due to their ego, or the belief that men and women want to befriend their opposite sex is only due to a sexual/romantic interest.
“I can be eclectic in tastes for objects or superficial friendships, not a desired BP.”
“Objects as in LOs ?”
Oh, no, objects as inanimate objects. As I repeated in the past, all my glimmer took place within the first 5 seconds and when I “saw” a striking familiarity in crushes’/LO’s EYES, as if I knew him from the long past or even my last life — the only “feature” shared in all my glimmers.
“I remember thinking afterward: Oh, that was interesting. I definitely developed a crush, but he was not my usual physical type at all.”
Physical type rarely played a big role in my crush; when it took place, I could not even notice if LO was missing a leg! But a “delayed crush” happened to me 3 times: 1st at HS (desk mate), 2nd college (he proposed), 3rd colleague (the bi-sexual man). They lasted from 1-6 months and nothing ever happened with them — no verbal expression, no hand touch.
Crush/infatuation could be such an illogical, mysterious human event/affair… A workable romance/relationship requires Glimmer, irrational and logical infatuation, but NOT LE addiction, which would harm all sides.
“I disagree. When reading the James’ story, I remember thinking, several times: Will you just get to the point already! 🙂”
I shouldn’t have said Henry James, whose work I haven’t touched for years. But Hemingway’s style is bare bone, could hardly arose my imagination in moods and emotions. Adjective and adverbs “paint” vivid pictures in the reader’s mind, I just “devoured them as snacks” since my middle school. Subclauses sometimes are indeed annoying.
“Exactly. There are many more possibilities, I’m sure. Those are the ones I came up with off the top of my head.”
A great book is a new window for an inquisitive reader’s 👁️ to view new possible paths in directions.
“I can relate. That’s what LO-lite did. I don’t really want to get into it here, but he tapped into something.”
Yeah, we talked about this before. It’s your own big task (w/o therapist) to figure out that “thing” and hopefully remove it eventually, thus no future LO would tap into the hurtful spot again.
“I like something that challenges me, like the James story, both in terms of reading it and interpreting it. And other times, I like something light and fun. Which is just enjoyable.”
I prefer listening to audiobooks nowadays, because they are like old fashioned oral story-telling, which all children enjoy and I still do.
“Speaking of which, I’m a little over halfway thrown the Lawrence book. I like his writing. It’s very repetitive in terms of the words he’ll use, even in one sentence or in a group of sentences. But it creates a kind of cadence as you’re reading. Although I will admit I’ve never read the words “flank” and “loins” this many times in my life. 🙂”
Which book of his you’re reading? Besides “Lady Chatterley”, and some of his poems, I haven’t read other Lawrence’s work, which is supposed to be socially rebellious and physically sensuous and sensual … am I getting the impression correctly?
I did another big hotpot shopping today, for Mom’s birthday next week. A cousin’s family would be in town for it and also celebrate the new lunar year – The Year of Fire Horse! 🔥 🐎, supposed to be a great leaping/flying year 🧨
Lady Snow,
“I finished watching the movie (2nd time) “Being Julia”
I just watched the trailer. Who would pick that blonde guy over Jeremy Irons? 🙂 It’s based on a work by W. Somerset Maugham, who of course wrote the quintessential book about limerence: Of Human Bondage.
“No, I don’t. My hair is below the shoulder line. Bobbed hair never looked good on me (tried before).”
But it’s black, right? I love dark hair.
” Verbal “knowledge” of someone can be very different from visceral impression of her/him.”
Totally agree.
““Didn’t click” is the apt word choice here.”
I know the feeling. And sometimes the people we do “click” with — I’m just talking about clicking with as people, as potential friends — can surprise us. But you have to meet in person to discover that.
” Let’s just say that personality and compatibility (with us) show on people’s aura and appearance (not physical features), especially in their eyes.”
I understand. It’s their energy and their overall presence.
“With your ladyship, I just imagine you as Helen of Troy if we don’t ever meet in person. If we plan to meet, based on Stoical rules, I’ll have to picture you as Frankenstein’s granddaughter🫂 , so I can’t get disappointed at all‼️💃”
Lol. That’s quite a big gap … from Helen of Troy to Frankenstein’s granddaughter. 🙂 I’m somewhere in between. 🙂
“you can imagine me as a Frankenstein’s Asian granddaughter with bobbed hair… it’s all about subjectivity ❗️🤭”
No, no. I picture you now with shoulder-length black hair and silky shirts with muted colors. Elegant.
“I sense you’re most likely right here, but there is always exception in any social matter, right?”
I think for women, yes. Women can befriend men and not have romantic interest.
I want to be clear in that it’s not like the thought never crosses my mind. With my most recent guy friend … I thought about it. I liked him. We were sharing a lot. I really did think he was going to become a close friend. But … there wasn’t enough physical attraction for me to want more. He’s not really my type of guy in terms of personality. Too passive.
“But some men in the past just assumed or even insisted that I was interested in them more than a genuine friendship. I couldn’t convince them otherwise, even if I swore. ”
I’ve had that happen as well. Only one male friend post-high school that didn’t try to push for more at some point.
“Physical type rarely played a big role in my crush; when it took place, I could not even notice if LO was missing a leg!”
I am the same way! If I glimmer, the man becomes beautiful to me, even if, objectively to the world, he isn’t. For some limerents, beauty seems to cause glimmer … that has never happened to me. That concept — glimmering for beauty — is totally foreign to me.
“But a “delayed crush” happened to me 3 times”
That’s a good way to describe them. “Delayed crushes.”
“I shouldn’t have said Henry James, whose work I haven’t touched for years. But Hemingway’s style is bare bone, could hardly arose my imagination in moods and emotions. ”
It’s been a while since I’ve read anything of his. But he’s always referenced as having a stripped-down writing style. The opposite of that — overwrought, overwritten — can feel like you’re walking through frozen mud as you try to read it.
“A great book is a new window for an inquisitive reader’s 👁️ to view new possible paths in directions.”
I agree. I thought the writing style was a bit much but I liked the idea of the story very much. The theme. And I liked the ambiguous ending.
“I prefer listening to audiobooks nowadays, because they are like old fashioned oral story-telling, which all children enjoy and I still do.”
I prefer to read things. If there’s a podcast, I read the transcript. I learn better reading than listening; for some people, it’s the opposite.
“Which book of his you’re reading? Besides “Lady Chatterley”, ”
Yes
“and some of his poems, I haven’t read other Lawrence’s work, which is supposed to be socially rebellious and physically sensuous and sensual … am I getting the impression correctly?”
I haven’t read his poetry. I’d say his writing is both physically and emotionally sensuous. Yes, he’s writing about the physicality of sex but all the emotions tied to that physicality.
“I did another big hotpot shopping today, for Mom’s birthday next week. A cousin’s family would be in town for it”
The same hotpot as before or a different one?
“also celebrate the new lunar year – The Year of Fire Horse! 🔥 🐎, supposed to be a great leaping/flying year 🧨”
What does that signify or mean?
Miss Marcia,
“I just watched the trailer. Who would pick that blonde guy over Jeremy Irons? 🙂 It’s based on a work by W. Somerset Maugham, who of course wrote the quintessential book about limerence: Of Human Bondage.”
If you love good plays, I encourage you to watch the movie (free on Tubi). Everything, including the deserved revenge, is done through elegant, poetic language, without any vulgarity. I so enjoyed it❗️(it was a long time ago when I watched it first time)
Yes, Julia falls in LE with that much younger blonde because she felt “dead” in her repetitious acting and stable marriage with Irons. But she fought back with her inner muse/counsel (played by Michael Gambon). She has a long term (suggested gay) friend (Lord Charles) who truly loved her all his life and caused social scandal. While she tried to seduce him again during her LE suffering — kiss him, he backed up and said (paraphrasing), “I have to play the other side.” I don’t totally understand what he means. Please tell me if you watch it.
“But it’s black, right? I love dark hair.
Yes, it’s black. Pure Asians’ hair is mostly black.
[ Verbal “knowledge” of someone can be very different from visceral impression of her/him.” ]
“Totally agree.”
As sensuous human beings, we are often impacted or influenced MORE by visceral knowledge, fortunately or unfortunately. We just can’t beat our brain chemistry or neural wirings.
“I know the feeling. And sometimes the people we do “click” with — I’m just talking about clicking with as people, as potential friends — can surprise us. But you have to meet in person to discover that.”
Yes. These five men and women I took time and efforts to meet seemed to have “clicked” somewhat or a lot on screen, but not AT ALL in person, not even as friends I’d want to spend time with, plus they are all in long distance.
”I understand. It’s their energy and their overall presence.”
No one has figured out what produced that Glimmer or click upon meeting someone new or “old” (from the screen).
“Lol. That’s quite a big gap … from Helen of Troy to Frankenstein’s granddaughter. 🙂 I’m somewhere in between. 🙂”
It’s the whole ironic point here: NO one knows how Helen of Troy and Frankenstein are supposed to look like, it’s up to each one’s taste, imagination and interpretation, ie. I have opposite appreciation of Sabrina to MJ’s eyes (I simply could not finish her song on stage with another girl, which clip MJ linked twice to Adam)
“No, no. I picture you now with shoulder-length black hair and silky shirts with muted colors. Elegant.”
I dislike silky clothes but mute-colored velvet (shirt /jacket /dress). I don’t like anything shiny, such as gold (silver is okay). I wear mostly cotton, linen, and washed/sanded—silk
“I think for women, yes. Women can befriend men and not have romantic interest.”
Women really CAN and often end up with women friends/companions in their old age.
“I want to be clear in that it’s not like the thought never crosses my mind. With my most recent guy friend … I thought about it. I liked him. We were sharing a lot. I really did think he was going to become a close friend. But … there wasn’t enough physical attraction for me to want more. He’s not really my type of guy in terms of personality. Too passive.”
He indeed doesn’t sound like your type. When I was still in COO, I had some platonic male friends from HS/College but I sensed there was always subtle male/female “tension”. After coming to the US, I couldn’t make any; no men, not even much older ones, was just interested in friendship only. 😕
“I’ve had that happen as well. Only one male friend post-high school that didn’t try to push for more at some point.”
The issue is that their misunderstanding caused embarrassment or ego wounds on their side. I felt so sorry and sad but just could not compromise or fake affections.
“For some limerents, beauty seems to cause glimmer … that has never happened to me. That concept — glimmering for beauty — is totally foreign to me.”
I literally have bumped into some very looking men (objectively) in the street, parties, public services, without feeling a thing, except, “Oh, that’s a good looking dude.”
“The opposite of that — overwrought, overwritten — can feel like you’re walking through frozen mud as you try to read it.”
I know what you mean. Nowadays I don’t have much time or energy to plough through the verbal “frozen mud”.
“The theme. And I liked the ambiguous ending.”
The same here. Some good quotes and poems could also inspire/stimulate the mind. They are broad and ambiguous enough to steer the reader to any direction based on their personal experiences and knowledge.
“I prefer to read things. If there’s a podcast, I read the transcript. I learn better reading than listening; for some people, it’s the opposite.”
Audiobooks get me through story lines; a close reading deepens understanding of some important points. That’s why I read 3 or 4 times of a poem before I post it.
“I’d say his writing is both physically and emotionally sensuous. Yes, he’s writing about the physicality of sex but all the emotions tied to that physicality.”
That’s most attractive in stories: tie emotions with sensual words and actions. That’s why touching, enjoyable sex comes with deep love (not just Eros) or a deep affectionate bond (to ME). By comparison, one- night or string-free kind is so boring and even “degenerating”, making me feel being used.
“The same hotpot as before or a different one?”
More or less the same. In our extremely cold winter this year, hotpot mostly desired meal that could warm and relax diners’ body and heart for 2-4 hours.
“What does that signify or mean?”
🐎 spirit/vigor is linked with 🐉 in COO. The term is, “Dragon-Horse spirit”. So in the Year of 🐎 , it signify one’s carrier or personal life could leap and soar like a 🐉 .
Among five earthen elements: Gold, Wood, Water, Fire, Earth, this coming year is 🔥 . Now, you can imagine what kind of 🐎 spirit it could fill in your life — you may indeed get married 💍 as I dreamt for you 😊
Typo: “The term is, “Dragon-Horse Essence & Spirit”. So in the Year of 🐎 , it signify one’s fortune in career, wealth or romance could leap and soar like a 🐉.”
Miss Snow,
“If you love good plays, I encourage you to watch the movie (free on Tubi).”
I’ll have to watch it.
“She has a long term (suggested gay) friend (Lord Charles) who truly loved her all his life and caused social scandal. While she tried to seduce him again during her LE suffering — kiss him, he backed up and said (paraphrasing), “I have to play the other side.” I don’t totally understand what he means. Please tell me if you watch it.”
He’s gay. He plays “for the other side.” He plays with men.
“Yes. These five men and women I took time and efforts to meet seemed to have “clicked” somewhat or a lot on screen, but not AT ALL in person, not even as friends I’d want to spend time with, plus they are all in long distance.”
I wonder what would happen if we all met. All the limerents. We may take one look at each other and say, “Forget it. ”
“Lol. That’s quite a big gap … from Helen of Troy to Frankenstein are supposed to look like, it’s up to each one’s taste, imagination and interpretation”
That’s true. In my mind, Helen of Troy is Elizabeth Taylor in the movie ” Doctor Faustus.” I KNOW you don’t agree. 🙂
“I have opposite appreciation of Sabrina to MJ’s eyes (I simply could not finish her song on stage with another girl, which clip MJ linked twice to Adam) ”
Her songs are catchy and she’s an attractive woman, but I don’t see any huge degree of musicality/talent or huge degree of personality/uniqueness. Now, to be clear, I don’t see that in Bad Bunny, either. He’s kind of the male equivalent of Sabrina. Attractive, young, fit. And he’s fun to watch.
“When I was still in COO, I had some platonic male friends from HS/College but I sensed there was always subtle male/female “tension”. ”
Yes, that’s a good way to describe it. I did feel a little of that with my guy friend. Or I did, before he disclosed.
“After coming to the US, I couldn’t make any; no men, not even much older ones, was just interested in friendship only. 😕”
Well, as we’ve read on here … the older ones have the same agenda. It probably didn’t dawn on you at the time that was their agenda due to the age difference.
“The issue is that their misunderstanding caused embarrassment or ego wounds on their side. I felt so sorry and sad but just could not compromise or fake affections.”
One of my male friends blew up at me. He actually yelled at me. I don’t remember much about it beyond that. With my most recent guy friend, I made an effort to be compassionate but clear. I know there was one male friend, years ago, I probably wasn’t clear enough with. In a misguided effort to be nice. But if someone sends you a long, rambling letter after you disclose (as opposed to saying they felt the same way) … that’s not a good sign. So you’d think he’d have some idea the feelings weren’t mutual.
“I literally have bumped into some very looking men (objectively) in the street, parties, public services, without feeling a thing, except, “Oh, that’s a good looking dude.””
Same. I’ll definitely notice a good-looking man. I’m also not opposed if he wants to get some friends together and put on a little show. I’m not opposed to a male revue. 🙂 But it’s not really doing all that much for me attraction/glimmer-wise.
“The same here. Some good quotes and poems could also inspire/stimulate the mind. They are broad and ambiguous enough to steer the reader to any direction based on their personal experiences and knowledge.”
I agree, and with what you wrote in another post: A lot of movies/TV shows/series coming out of Hollywood tend to beat the viewer over the head with a moral message. It wasn’t always like that. Decades ago, they made stuff for adults that was much more intelligent. But now, a lot of movies that are released in the theaters are made for teenage boys (the Marvel stuff, for example). Or if a movie or series is released on a streaming service, I believe it’s made with the idea that people aren’t fully watching it — they could be looking at their phones or doing chores — and similar dialogue is repeated over and over in subsequent scenes or similar scenes are repeated to make sure the viewer knows what’s going on. It gets tedious.
“Audiobooks get me through story lines; a close reading deepens understanding of some important points. That’s why I read 3 or 4 times of a poem before I post it.”
For poetry, I would definitely read it over several times. But the James’ story was like that, too. I had to read many parts of it at least twice to understand the meaning.
“That’s most attractive in stories: tie emotions with sensual words and actions. That’s why touching, enjoyable sex comes with deep love (not just Eros) or a deep affectionate bond (to ME).”
I think Connie and Mellors are falling in love, but I meant that Lawrence is very good at writing about being emotionally moved by the physical act of sex. The physicality is moving.
“More or less the same. In our extremely cold winter this year, hotpot mostly desired meal ”
If I just ate the proteins, would that be considered rude?
“The term is, “Dragon-Horse Essence & Spirit”. So in the Year of 🐎 , it signify one’s fortune in career, wealth or romance could leap and soar like a 🐉.” … Now, you can imagine what kind of 🐎 spirit it could fill in your life — you may indeed get married 💍 as I dreamt for you 😊”
That sounds good. My young, masculine, Asian dude. 🙂
Miss Marcia,
“He’s gay. He plays “for the other side.” He plays with men.”
See how culturally ignorant I am! I just guessed he’s gay later when there was a younger man standing next to him in the opening night of her new play.
“I wonder what would happen if we all met. All the limerents. We may take one look at each other and say, “Forget it. ”
That could happen, the disastrous possibility! (As it happened with my 5 chatroom ‘friends’). The worst is that when you get visceral disappointment, you might not even want to keep existing online friend/penpal connections. Right now, we are “intellectual” and “imaginative” 👻 👻 friends/camaraderies without visceral knowledge of each other.
The more one expects from others, the more one gets disappointed. That’s why I’ve suggested, as a Stoic, to expect/picture to meet a bunch of Frankenstein’s grandsons and granddaughters. If you’re truly psychological prepared to open your arms to them, then none of them could disappoint you! One can get used to look at Hunchback of Notre Dame, if you really appreciate his noble heart.
I just got an idea: Dr L or myself (everyone can recognize the one wicked witch of the East here) gives a costume ball in my town. You guys all show up wearing a costume (at least a facial or eye mask) so we keep our partial features/identity semi-hidden. The strict rule is that no one tells his/her real name or LwL handle name, but a fake first name.
Then we mingle, dance, eat and drink. If two or more click with each other, based on their visceral impressions (especially eyes) and chitchats, they can decide how to reveal their true identities among themselves after the party. If you can’t click with anyone else, you quietly depart and keep/continue your anonymity, existing friendship/camaraderie. What do you think 🤔 ?
“Her songs are catchy and she’s an attractive woman, but I don’t see any huge degree of musicality/talent or huge degree of personality/uniqueness. Now, to be clear, I don’t see that in Bad Bunny, either. He’s kind of the male equivalent of Sabrina. Attractive, young, fit. And he’s fun to watch.”
I’m really poor in assess singing quality; but both Sabrina and Bad Bunny are a bit unbearable to watch for me — there is “emptiness” in both their eyes… I’m sorry to say to you and MJ, but I can’t help it. 😔
“Well, as we’ve read on here … the older ones have the same agenda. It probably didn’t dawn on you at the time that was their agenda due to the age difference.”
How was I supposed to know, when I was striving with ESL and other life responsibilities⁉️ Some of the men were 30~50 years older… the grandpa generation. I never heard of the word, “pair-bonding” until I came to LwL in 2023!
“One of my male friends blew up at me. He actually yelled at me. I don’t remember much about it beyond that. “
Wow 😳 , that’s an excessive reaction! Whatever he had was NOT love for sure!
“With my most recent guy friend, I made an effort to be compassionate but clear.”
That’s really tough spot to be in. I had the similar case (one of 5) which made me going into a depression for 2 weeks (mentioned it here before). I felt chokingly sad for the dude… 😞
“But if someone sends you a long, rambling letter after you disclose (as opposed to saying they felt the same way) … that’s not a good sign. So you’d think he’d have some idea the feelings weren’t mutual.”
Was he a non-limerent? It seems (from LwL), most limerents are super sensitive to others’/LO’s words and emotional behaviors in all directions.
“I’ll definitely notice a good-looking man. I’m also not opposed if he wants to get some friends together and put on a little show. I’m not opposed to a male revue. 🙂 But it’s not really doing all that much for me attraction/glimmer-wise.”
I was rarely interested in dealing with them further, perhaps busy unconsciously in trying to find someone/something to fill that Longing hole inside me. By intuition, I knew/sensed these good-looking dudes could not “help” me in my needed “mission”.
“I agree, and with what you wrote in another post: A lot of movies/TV shows/series coming out of Hollywood tend to beat the viewer over the head with a moral message. “
Modern Hollywood is UNWATCHABLE, also too fast with too many actions for me.
“It wasn’t always like that. Decades ago, they made stuff for adults that was much more intelligent. “
That’s why I’m still watching those old, slow, mini plays, because their words/lines are mentally “chewable”. Sometimes, I had to pause, rewind, and think about what was said and why. Theatric /poetic /philosophical /psychological words/lines are so juicy and delicious.
“I think Connie and Mellors are falling in love, but I meant that Lawrence is very good at writing about being emotionally moved by the physical act of sex. The physicality is moving.”
It’s such a long while ago since I read the book. It sounds like it’s worth rereading it, for a limerent?
“If I just ate the proteins, would that be considered rude?”
Not at all! That’s the beauty of Hotpot — you can choose whatever you want to eat. It’s like a raw buffet, you select your favorite ingredients to cook in the boiling pot on the table and then dip in your own mixed sauce. Try to find a Chinese restaurant that offers Hotpot in your area and give it try; normally, you’d have over 20~40 choice.
“That sounds good. My young, masculine, Asian dude.”
But you said you don’t want to stand next to your man who is 20 years younger than you 😄
I’ve seen some movies made recently that were too choppy, hard to follow. 😛 One was about Tolkien, I believe. Also ones like Guardians of the Galaxy that everybody seems to LOVE but I found it boring and without depth. The most recent Little Women adaptation ruined the whole story. And it’s not just a modern problem: For decades now, I’ve preferred original versions of shows or movies instead of the Americanized ones, like Being Human or The Slap.
🦇 📕,
I haven’t seen any movie you mentioned here, I just did not have interests or time. The list on my Tubi is still long… I just like classical stuff and a bit of poetry, never got bored of them…
Miss Snow,
“See how culturally ignorant I am!”
I can help you with the cultural stuff. 🙂
“The worst is that when you get visceral disappointment, you might not even want to keep existing online friend/penpal connections. ”
That’s what I would worry about.
“The more one expects from others, the more one gets disappointed. ”
You’re preaching to the choir. 🙂
“I just got an idea: Dr L or myself (everyone can recognize the one wicked witch of the East here) gives a costume ball in my town. You guys all show up wearing a costume (at least a facial or eye mask) so we keep our partial features/identity semi-hidden. The strict rule is that no one tells his/her real name or LwL handle name, but a fake first name.
Then we mingle, dance, eat and drink. If two or more click with each other, based on their visceral impressions (especially eyes) and chitchats, they can decide how to reveal their true identities among themselves after the party. If you can’t click with anyone else, you quietly depart and keep/continue your anonymity, existing friendship/camaraderie. What do you think 🤔 ?”
But how/when do you do the reveals? What if some people got a bunch of reveals and some people got none? And how can determine a visceral response without being able to see peoples’ faces? I think you should just get together, talk, chat, have some drinks (no masks), maybe everyone has a number attached to them on their shirts … and then later, at home, you do some kind of online thing where you could check off the numbers of the people you want to further communicate with, and if they also check your number (kind of like Tinder), you would receive each others’ real names and contact info.
“but both Sabrina and Bad Bunny are a bit unbearable to watch for me — there is “emptiness” in both their eyes… I’m sorry to say to you and MJ, but I can’t help it. 😔”
I think he’s fun to watch. I’m by no means a big fan (I couldn’t name one of his songs), but the man does have beautiful skin. Perfect, flawless, cafe au lait skin. 🙂
“How was I supposed to know, when I was striving with ESL and other life responsibilities⁉️ ”
Because you’re a woman and they were men. 🙂
“Some of the men were 30~50 years older… the grandpa generation. ”
Sounds about right. 🙂 Men don’t seem to get that a big age gap is an issue.
“Wow 😳 , that’s an excessive reaction! Whatever he had was NOT love for sure!”
I didn’t mean to imply all of these male friends were in love with me. Some I’m sure were down for sex.
“That’s really tough spot to be in. I had the similar case (one of 5) which made me going into a depression for 2 weeks (mentioned it here before). I felt chokingly sad for the dude…”
Why? You think your rejection hit him hard? I felt bad when I turned down my friend, but the next day I felt awkward. And I kind of wished he hadn’t told me. The whole thing felt very heavy. I wish he had handled things differently. I’m not sure what made him think all that heaviness was a good thing.
“Was he a non-limerent? It seems (from LwL), most limerents are super sensitive to others’/LO’s words and emotional behaviors in all directions.”
Idk. But when he told me, I don’t think I responded, right in that moment. Or I didn’t say much. Which should have told him a lot.
“By intuition, I knew/sensed these good-looking dudes could not “help” me in my needed “mission”.”
I look at it as entertainment/fun. To watch the cute dudes. I don’t take it all that seriously. There was once this really attractive guy I worked with. He’d walk past the desks where I and a bunch of other female co-workers sat. Sometimes he’d lean up against the wall, like he was posing. He was clearly doing it to get attention. And I’d watch him. I wasn’t going to stop him, but I was never motivated to get up and talk to him.
“Modern Hollywood is UNWATCHABLE, also too fast with too many actions for me.”
There are some good shows, but you have to dig.
“That’s why I’m still watching those old, slow, mini plays, because their words/lines are mentally “chewable”. ”
Movies were in their heyday in terms of creativity after the studio system fell apart and before blockbusters changed the landscape. So the 60s and 70s.
“Sometimes, I had to pause, rewind, and think about what was said and why. Theatric /poetic /philosophical /psychological words/lines are so juicy and delicious.”
I do that if the writing is really beautiful. I ‘ll read it again. Or if there’s a great description of, for example, human behavior. Or a relationship between characters.
“It’s such a long while ago since I read the book. It sounds like it’s worth rereading it, for a limerent?”
I think so. It’s not a modern book. It’s slow. The pacing is slow. I don’t mind that, but some people do.
“Not at all! That’s the beauty of Hotpot — you can choose whatever you want to eat. It’s like a raw buffet, you select your favorite ingredients to cook in the boiling pot on the table and then dip in your own mixed sauce.”
What if I just want the proteins plain?
“Try to find a Chinese restaurant that offers Hotpot in your area and give it try; normally, you’d have over 20~40 choice.”
I’ll have to look for one.
“But you said you don’t want to stand next to your man who is 20 years younger than you 😄”
I don’t. I’m teasing about younger men. I’d prefer someone right around my age. Someone I can relate to generationally. Someone I don’t have to worry about looking much younger than as I get older.
correction: looking much older than
Marcia,
“I can help you with the cultural stuff. 🙂”
Yes, you’re the right person for me to really learn about particular American culture. European culture is slightly different. There is so much I still don’t know and wish to learn.
“That’s what I would worry about.”
In the past, it already happened to me almost every single time — 6 out of 7.
“But how/when do you do the reveals? What if some people got a bunch of reveals and some people got none? “
That would be the case in any social gathering. I think your number system is great/genius! So no revealing is done at the party but later online. 💻
“And how can determine a visceral response without being able to see peoples’ faces? “
Romeo and Juliet met at a costume party. One’s eyes (soul speaking), physique/posture/magnetic feels, talks/voice, smell, hair… will exude a lot at a visceral level. That’s why Venice had a lot of costume parties for people to mingle, yet “save face” in case one receive less contact/approaches. Not a full facial mask, just eye mask to give one a sense of safety and also not to reveal too much liking or/and disliking expressions in highly anxiety-driving social parities. 🎊
The problem is that host/hostess can’t prevent partnered limerents (stuck or bored ones) from attending. If they click or glimmer with other limerent(s), the latter could become a third wheel or a new LO… we don’t want to that, right?
“but the man does have beautiful skin. Perfect, flawless, cafe au lait skin. 🙂”
If a men eyes and aura are not attractive, I forgot to check or care everything else on his body. That’s just me. 🙂
“Because you’re a woman and they were men. 🙂”
COO education on this was/is somewhat inhuman, they didn’t teach even basic biological differences of two sexes at school (k-12), let alone psychological ones.
“Sounds about right. 🙂 Men don’t seem to get that a big age gap is an issue.”
Magnetic feels of older people are different from young ones. Our biological pair-bonding drive has its own 👁️ to select; while the logical mind does not help much. A lot of younger women settle down with older men were/are for other social/economic benefits. Two centuries ago in Europe, those wealthy, older husbands allowed their younger wives to take lovers semi-openly. The society closes one eye.
“I didn’t mean to imply all of these male friends were in love with me. Some I’m sure were down for sex.”
This Western culture of “down for sex” from the both sides still boggles my “culturally salvage” mind. My father even pushed me to try, I did; but just couldn’t get into it at all❗️
“Why? You think your rejection hit him hard? “
I think so, through his sad expression while bidding permanent goodbye (for me) and his entreating emails afterwards. Then my imagination pictured his possible sadness/despair in my psyche. As I said, one’s imagination could powerfully play tricks in all directions, affecting us positively or negatively. One’s mind really needs to ground on reality, not relying on one’s imagination/envision.
“I wish he had handled things differently. I’m not sure what made him think all that heaviness was a good thing.”
He thought “heaviness (of yours) was a good thing”, which induces guilty sense in one? That’s selfish and mean. That’s not even a friendship affection — care for one’s friends’ wellbeing at the price of resting/sacrificing one’s ego.
“Idk. But when he told me, I don’t think I responded, right in that moment. Or I didn’t say much. Which should have told him a lot.”
He’s either non-limerent or his ego was just unwilling to accept the hinted, stingy truth from your rejection 🛑 .
“I look at it as entertainment/fun. To watch the cute dudes. I don’t take it all that seriously. “
I could do that, too, if they’re from classes or work. But I made sure that I didn’t show too much interest/laughter, or they might misinterpret it. I had partnered bosses or colleagues hitting on me, quite uncomfortable.
“There are some good shows, but you have to dig.”
I have little time or energy to dig, unless some cultured 📖 acquaintance strongly recommends.
“Or if there’s a great description of, for example, human behavior. Or a relationship between characters.”
That’s the most attractive part. I also enjoys profound monologue of characters, if they are curious, learning, evolving ones, not much of tragic, fixed “hero” types 🦸🏻♂️
“I think so. It’s not a modern book. It’s slow. The pacing is slow. I don’t mind that, but some people do.”
I almost don’t read any modern, fast-paced books. 📚
“What if I just want the proteins plain?”
Then, don’t make any sauce for yourself. The center pot just has water or clear broths, which you can also choose from menu. 🍱
“I’d prefer someone right around my age. Someone I can relate to generationally. Someone I don’t have to worry about looking much younger than as I get older.”
I don’t worry so much about age/look gap, but maturity discrepancies. I’ve met older people who are less mature even than me — a “sickening bratty, entitled, egotistic kid” in the neighborhood. 😊
Marcia Darling 🫂,
I don’t have any residual or current dark LE going on, and those LE related merry-go-around talks tire me out. Lately only non LE related chats with you (and yours with limited others) have been teaching/learning “fun” for me.
So I’ll stop participating in LwL commentary sections soon, except reading DrL’s feature articles and watching his videos.
If you feel like chatting with me sometimes, please ask DrL for my email address.
DrL: please give Marcia my email, only IF she asks for it. Thanks.
Snow,
“If you feel like chatting with me sometimes, please ask DrL for my email address.”
This may work better. Go to the forum (address below). Create an account and then go to “New Topic” and create a new post and call it something like “My email for Marcia.” Then leave your email address. I’ll respond that I got your email address and then you can delete the entire post.
https://limerenceforums.com/
Snow: The forum is more private. You have to create an account and password. And you have the ability to delete everything.
Marcia,
I’m a member of the forum, but never went there to talk. If I create a topic there, you and other members (happen to be online) can all see it.
What I meant in my previous post is: you send a private email to DrL saying, “I’ll take Snow’s email address”, and then DrL will send my email address ONLY to you through his private reply to you. By doing this, none of our emails would ever appear here in LwL or the forum.
Then when you send me an email directly, it will surely land in my junk mailbox first. You’ll have to indicate, in the subject title (perhaps using our emojis), it IS from Marcia (so many junk mails each day, using emojis or my first/last name 😠 )
Got it?
Marcia,
I left an email message with DrL; you can fetch it (from DrL directly) whenever you’re ready.
Thank you again, DrL!
Snow,
I’m not really comfortable sending him a request to exchange our email addresses. I’m assuming he’s busy.
If you want, I can put my email address in a post on the forum. I have one that doesn’t have my name in it.
And the forum is not busy at all these days. Maybe 5 people post. The post is only going to be up for a short time, anyway, before it would be deleted.
Marcia,
Okay. I’ll be at the forum waiting and let you know immediately once I get it. Thanks.
I meant I’m there now… waiting…
What about a private chat on the forum instead of posting it to everyone?
Snow, before you leave, I just wanted to mention I’ve been working through George Sand’s fascinating autobiography. 🙂
🦇 📕,
You can do private chat in the forum? How?
Wow, you’re reading George Sand’s autobiography? 👏 what’s more fascinating part to you?
I have to get off here (I’m OCD, addicted), in order to tackle my book list, even just movie and documentary list on Tubi.
Snow,
Ok. I posted it.
Marcia,
I already sent you an email from my private, previous school account. Please check it!
❄️ 🐦🔥
Thanks Dear
I’ll hit you up sometime..
😂😂😂
Mj,
The only men who call women “dear” are old. You are so not hip. This won’t help you with the young babes. 😀
I’m not actually sure how to do private chats; I just know I’m in one. 🙂 Somebody else started it.
I’m almost halfway through the book. I’m not a fast reader, especially with dense writing. But the stories of her father, especially his relationship with his mother, have interested me; it’s a shame he was killed so young, only 30. He was talented and brave and very loving, especially of his mother and his wife and children. At least, that is the picture George/Aurore has of him. 🙂 And of course there are the stories of his mother after the Revolution, when she was restricted and under suspicion and imprisoned for some time. Now it’s on to Aurore’s childhood, and her imagination that reminds me of the fantasy worlds I went into as a child, too.
Thanks Ladyship.. I’ll keep it in mind.
“Old, wise and sexy.”
Think you should get me a shirt with that imprinted on it for my bday. You have 4 days.. 😆
MJ,
“‘Old, wise and sexy. ‘ Think you should get me a shirt with that imprinted on it for my bday.”
Is it your birthday in four days? I’m sorry. 🙂
I’m not getting a shirt printed with that ridiculousness on it. It’s an oxymoron, my friend. A contradiction in terms.
You know that better than anybody. You’re the one who likes the young things. 🙂
Yeah just in time. AARP sent me a membership request and if I join now I can get a free cooler tote bag.
You bring yours and I’ll bring mine and we can share ice coffee together..
😆
And since when did you forget Valentines Day is my bday? You’ve always known that. Its the one main thing LO and I have in common. She’ll be 31 in 4 days.
Always and forever. A 24 year age-gap.
Awww. 🥰😆😂
“Always and forever. A 24 year age-gap.
Awww. 🥰😆😂”
Yeah. Every woman’s signing up for that. Let me tell you. 🙂
Now you know why I am Lwls all time most crying man ever..
😭💦💦🪣
I’ve just watched Dr. L’s latest YT video: “Crazy Dreams: 7 signs of toxic limerence (and how to fix it)”.
Watch the video, people. It’s seriously good. Dr. L’s insights just keep getting sharper and sharper. The video is also studded with quotes from people who may have been members of LwL at some point, including … drumroll … Nisor! (Are you paying attention, Adam? You were good mates with the lovely Nisor). 😜
Bombshell insight: “Reward-seeking becomes relief-seeking”. I believe this is what past reader Beth was trying to say when she spoke about feeling like she needed her LO “on a cellular level”. (I.e. her initial desire for reward had turned into a need for relief aka craving).
In recent days, as is my habit, I’ve been keeping an eye on r/limerence, too. David/Shiverypeaks writes that limerence “is just supposed to be a vocabulary word for the kind of love that leads to a lovesickness”.
Full marks. in other words. to Limerent Emeritus, Jaideux, and Mila. I think they’re the only three readers I’m aware of who have consistently gotten the definition of limerence even somewhat close to correct. 😉
Critic
Leonard Bacon
Why am I better than all other men?
I do not have to prove it. I admit it.
Here is the nail, and I am here to hit it.
A blow that glances somewhat now and then.
With pure intention I take up the pen
That writes the truth, if any ever writ it.
Venom is vulgar. I decline to spit it.
Still if I must—Well, nine times out of ten
I do. I am tired. That book must be a bore.
Jones wrote it. He was rude to me at lunch,
And nobody quite likes him in our bunch.
Smith said he liked my novel. In my bones
I feel that I like Smith. But more and more
My conscience tells me to eviscerate Jones
Oh, oh, you will be sorry for that word!
Edna St. Vincent Millay
1892 –1950
Oh, oh, you will be sorry for that word!
Give back my book and take my kiss instead.
Was it my enemy or my friend I heard,
“What a big book for such a little head!”
Come, I will show you now my newest hat,
And you may watch me purse my mouth and prink!
Oh, I shall love you still, and all of that.
I never again shall tell you what I think.
I shall be sweet and crafty, soft and sly;
You will not catch me reading any more:
I shall be called a wife to pattern by;
And some day when you knock and push the door,
Some sane day, not too bright and not too stormy,
I shall be gone, and you may whistle for me.
I find I have no one to talk to about this, so I am posting here. This concerns my closest female friend who I talk to almost every day. She and I don’t have much in common, but we have formed a strong friendship.
I have been worrying about her health, since she neglects herself in favor of taking care of her pets. She finally took herself to the hospital, where they promptly admitted her with heart failure.
She is 62 and obese. I am very concerned. She has fluid leaking from her ankles, and one of her legs has turned purple.
I am so grateful she is finally in the hospital, but I worry about how much damage she may have caused herself by neglecting her health. She does not smoke or drink.
I am not tempted to text LO, although he may actually know something about this, since his mother also has heart issues.
However, I am not willing to take the chance of having him say something that might inadvertently make the situation worse. I don’t know what that would be exactly. I don’t think he means to be unkind, but he doesn’t know how to be comforting.
How horrible! 🙁 Fluid leaking—??!! I hope they can help her. 🙁
To Serial:
As terrifying as this sounds, apparently it’s a “normal” symptom for what she has.
Sorry to hear that ND. You’re in my thoughts..
To MJ:
She is going to discharge herself today so that she can go take care of her pets. I am too far away to help.
This is all very distressing.
Marcia,
I moved this over here.
“I couldn’t do it. I’m not “securely enough” attached. Due to my background. And I don’t trust your side enough that you wouldn’t walk off with the new person”
Probably wise 🙂
I know a former couple where she started to question their monogamous relationship, introduced another woman, and the man ended the arrangement and went off with her.
“Why would anyone need to get obsessive and weird over someone they can have? (To be clear, I’m sure there are feelings that develop with the secondary relationships.”
I have never looked into it really -(read most about it is here on LwL). But I understand there is usually a kind of rulebook about ‘who can have who, and in what combinations’. Whereas to me – and this may reflect my ignorance – the only fair way to enter a poly situation, is for everyone to be allowed to do what they want with who they want. And no version of it would work for me in reality, also because of attachment style.
“Limerence is maladaptive.”
Yes, definitely if it gets stuck. Often also if it doesn’t. But DrL reports his own case of limerence with his wife that calmed down and turned out Ok. He often says that wasn’t maladaptive.
“It’s based on a lot of hope and projection and the limerent’s “stuff” that has been triggered.”
That is my experiences of limerence too, and that of most of the posters we read about. But do we just see – on LwL – a sample of the limerents who are frustrated and bitter, that doesn’t represent the ones where it turned out better and who don’t have a need to be on here?
“Love is based on two things: a deep knowledge/understanding of each other and attachment, which is emotional interdependence and a sense of emotional responsibility for each other”
Yeah – the bigger problem of trying to look at limerence vs love is that people misdefine love too casually. The deep love in your definition would take a good while to develop. It is never there at the stage of initial attraction.
But when those on here who have studied the literature get involved, we always circle back to “limerence is a form of love”.
“you were friends with your LO. So you may have some of those components. You may have some of the knowledge/understanding”
I know her character well, and the interaction between our characters, which has a lot of good things going for it. But I don’t know if we’d click romantically / as lovers. And if we tried to, I don’t know if the good things would hold true. And so I could never claim love for her (unless you believe in a form of love for friends) – only that limerence tricked me into thinking it.
“The only time I could see it being defined as “one who got away” is if you were together and circumstances tore you apart. As in: One of you was called off to war.”
It’s a good point. The phrase is over-used. If they got away because we did nothing about it … well then they didn’t think there was anything they were getting away from.
“I can’t do that. I’d love to be able to have sex like a man. I cannot stress that enough. To enjoy it in the moment, enjoy it for what it is, say all these beautiful things that I really do mean in the moment, and then walk out the door and not want anything more.”
I understand your drift. Despite being a man, it hasn’t ever worked that way for me either. I can’t separate the physical and emotional. I need the emotional, to become interested in the physical in the first place.
[“I have a couple of coinages here too, that others now routinely adopt.”]
“What are they?”
LwL-ers; lim-brain (DrL’s term is ‘lizard brain’); Occasionally other posters have tried to credit me with stuff like ‘visceral death of hope’, but that’s all DrL’s – I just used it a lot a year ago.
“For me, as a single person, “nothing will ever happen” means I’ll never hook up with the LO.”
That is what I mean by ‘nothing will ever happen’ as well. In my case my being partnered is the main reason (from my side) that it won’t. I don’t blame the LO for it in my or any partnered limerent’s situation. It only ever ‘happened’ in my head.
“Secondly, can you get another job?”
There are ways I could – and I have thought about it. There are some possible ways without making a geographical move, more ways if I was prepared to. There is a lot wrapped up there. It’s not fair to ask SO to move (family and friends are local). And I don’t mind the gig I have at work. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t skip into work in oodles of joy every day – but I get by, and I’m not unhappy. I’d ideally want to think that something other than the presence of LO would trigger me to move when the time was right. Maybe that’s too idealistic though.
LaR,
“I know a former couple where she started to question their monogamous relationship, introduced another woman, and the man ended the arrangement and went off with her.”
You weren’t supposed to tell me something like this. You were supposed to say that she went off with the woman. 🙂 What you’ve written has just proven my belief in the … um … short-term attention span of your side.
“But I understand there is usually a kind of rulebook about ‘who can have who, and in what combinations’. Whereas to me – and this may reflect my ignorance – the only fair way to enter a poly situation, is for everyone to be allowed to do what they want with who they want. ”
I’m totally with you on that. I don’t get all these rules and regulations. And the endless talk of the rules and regulations. I know this isn’t exactly polyamory … but I have a friend who occasionally has threesomes with her boyfriend and another women, and she has rules about what he can and can’t do with the other woman. No, thank you. I wouldn’t put up with it if I were her boyfriend or the other woman. If I’m the second woman, why am I having to put with rules dictated by a couple I’m not even a part of? Why wouldn’t I just find some other guy who isn’t hemmed in by all these rules? I won’t get graphic, but what she’s saying no to is basic stuff on the menu. Nothing outlandish. She seems to be putting up some arbitrary line that makes no sense, considering what she is comfortable with letting him do.
“Yes, definitely if it gets stuck. Often also if it doesn’t. But DrL reports his own case of limerence with his wife that calmed down and turned out Ok. He often says that wasn’t maladaptive.”
Sorry. I wasn’t clear. I define limerence as the dark part. When it gets stuck. When it can’t move into a relationship. Not what Dr. L experienced. That’s, to me, two people falling in love and having it move into a long-term relationship.
“That is my experiences of limerence too, and that of most of the posters we read about. But do we just see – on LwL – a sample of the limerents who are frustrated and bitter, that doesn’t represent the ones where it turned out better and who don’t have a need to be on here?”
Yes, all of the people on here are experiencing the dark part. If things went well, they’d be off, happily enjoying their relationships. 🙂
“The deep love in your definition would take a good while to develop. It is never there at the stage of initial attraction.”
No, it NEVER is. It can’t be. What’s at the beginning is a lot of hormones and hope and projection of qualities the person may not even have … based on the brain scramble from the attraction.
“But when those on here who have studied the literature get involved, we always circle back to “limerence is a form of love”.”
I think it can be the beginning of love. Maybe the catalyst. But I think you can experience mutual limerence (the good part) and then not get to the love part. Because at the end of the day, there wasn’t much else there but the hormones and the projection.
“But I don’t know if we’d click romantically / as lovers.”
In what way?
“And so I could never claim love for her (unless you believe in a form of love for friends) ”
I do. At the end of the day, I don’t think it’s all the different. You’re just adding sex and commitment if it’s a relationship.
“If they got away because we did nothing about it … well then they didn’t think there was anything they were getting away from.”
I’m not sure what you mean. So my last big LO disclosed. I’ll be vague, but something along the lines of contacting me if something changed in his marriage. At the time, that felt huge (very huge), but when I look back at it now … who knows what would have happened if he left his marriage. There’s no guarantee we would have made it on one date, let alone wound up together. There’s a huge difference between expressing interest and actually showing up and following through. I don’t look at him as “one who got away.”
“Despite being a man, it hasn’t ever worked that way for me either. I can’t separate the physical and emotional. I need the emotional, to become interested in the physical in the first place.”
Yeah, but what does that mean, exactly? I think there are men who don’t really like super casual sex. I mean, picking someone up they’ve never met at a bar and hooking up an hour later. But does it mean sex has to happen within a relationship for them? No. They’re perfectly happy with some level of companionship and friendship (makes the sex better for them) but no real commitment. And to me, that’s still casual.
“LwL-ers; lim-brain (DrL’s term is ‘lizard brain’); ”
Ah, ok. I have heard that one. “Lizard brain” to me means your basest instincts. “Lim-brain” means … stars in your eyes. Am I off?
“Occasionally other posters have tried to credit me with stuff like ‘visceral death of hope’, but that’s all DrL’s – I just used it a lot a year ago.”
What does that mean? So right now I’m in this phase where what I already knew to be true intellectually is hitting me emotionally. Almost like you’re lying on the beach and you can hear the water, can hear it creeping up to you more and more closely as the tide comes in … maybe it hits your feet, then it hits your legs … until you’re completely enveloped in water. It’s not fun.
“There are ways I could – and I have thought about it. There are some possible ways without making a geographical move, more ways if I was prepared to. ”
I didn’t mean that you would move. Here’s an example … if you’re a professor and you have one university in your town … you obviously wouldn’t quit because of an LO.
But if there are other jobs in your field, in the place where you live … sometimes going someplace new shakes things up a little. A change is good.
Marcia,
“What you’ve written has just proven my belief in the … um … short-term attention span of your side.”
Yeah – I realised that … after hitting Send 🤦♂️
“She seems to be putting up some arbitrary line that makes no sense, considering what she is comfortable with letting him do.”
Yeah it’s obvious who’s wearing the trousers (or not) there …
“Yes, all of the people on here are experiencing the dark part.”
Yeah – while the discussions trying to philosophize on the different forms of limerence do interest me … bottom line, 99%+ of what we hear about is the dark version. Even when a poster starts ‘light’, it usually soon turns.
“Because at the end of the day, there wasn’t much else there but the hormones and the projection.”
Mmm. In support of the point, I have had better success with relationships where the beginning didn’t feel too limerent, than with the ones where it did.
But … we’re not always thinking that far ahead during the hormone flood at the start, are we? 🙂
[“But I don’t know if we’d [LO and I] click romantically / as lovers.”]
“In what way?”
Sex. You can’t know that if you haven’t tried. And as you’ve said before, the level of limerence doesn’t correlate to how good the sex is, if you (plural) do even get as far as trying.
[unless you believe in a form of love for friends]
“I do. At the end of the day, I don’t think it’s all the different. You’re just adding sex and commitment if it’s a relationship.”
I’m surprised you didn’t add something like ‘as your side will always want to’ 🙂.
“I don’t look at him as “one who got away.””
I think maybe why we were at crossed wires on this ‘got away’ point before is that by ‘doing something’, you mean DOING something (not ‘SAYING something’ like your xLO. And also not ‘SAYING NOTHING ‘ like most limerents).
In a nutshell, we can only say someone got away, if we showed them there was something there to stay with or go away from.
[“I can’t separate the physical and emotional. I need the emotional, to become interested in the physical in the first place.”]
“Yeah, but what does that mean, exactly?”
Typical pattern – I feel attracted to / crush on someone. I’ll then have a few dates with her if there’s mutual interest. NO conversation at that point like ‘are we exclusive?’ (too early – weird). Then we might get physical.
It’s been that pattern, not one where I take a stranger home on the night I meet them. There have been just a couple of exceptions ever. And even with those, I found myself wanting to get emotionally connected to them afterwards (it didn’t happen, in either case, and the wish to connect went away pretty quickly).
” “Lizard brain” to me means your basest instincts. “Lim-brain” means … stars in your eyes. Am I off? ”
No, you’re spot on. We can’t trust the Lim-brain!
[‘visceral death of hope’]
What does that mean?
The point when hope has died in your body/core, not just your brain. *Really* getting it – not just telling yourself you get it.
“So right now I’m in this phase where what I already knew to be true intellectually is hitting me emotionally.”
Yes – that!
“Almost like you’re lying on the beach and you can hear the water, can hear it creeping up to you more and more closely as the tide comes in … maybe it hits your feet, then it hits your legs … until you’re completely enveloped in water. It’s not fun.”
It’s not fun, no. For me, in line with that almost ‘drowning’ analogy, it brought on the most horrendous spell of tiredness and lethargy. I felt I was operating at 30% battery and dropping – almost too sub-par to go to work / do the basics of daily life. My hunch is that part of the problem is how limerence puts us on 150% battery all the time, for months/years; there is then a debt to be paid.
That was cheerful, wasn’t it?
“sometimes going someplace new shakes things up a little. A change is good.”
I agree. Now I almost feel the phrase ‘purposeful living’ marching the way of our discussion 🙂😬. I’ve been doing the odd new thing the last few months, in and out of work – that is ‘all mine’, and doesn’t involve either SO or LO. That’s helped – it’s too easy to forget to do it. I hope to have space to think about bigger work decisions this year.
LaR,
[“What you’ve written has just proven my belief in the … um … short-term attention span of your side.”]
“Yeah – I realised that … after hitting Send 🤦♂️”
I was kind of kidding.
On that note … Did you seriously think of leaving your SO during your LE?
“Yeah it’s obvious who’s wearing the trousers (or not) there …”
My first thought was of him and the other woman. Because I probably projected myself in that role. But then … maybe he wouldn’t be the goal. If the other woman’s goal is my friend … maybe this woman wouldn’t care what he was allowed to do. Maybe she wouldn’t care if he was there at all. 🙂
“Yeah – while the discussions trying to philosophize on the different forms of limerence do interest me”
Isn’t that kind of what most people experience at the beginning of a mutual-interest relationship? Some form of limerence or limerent-like feelings?
“In support of the point, I have had better success with relationships where the beginning didn’t feel too limerent, than with the ones where it did.”
Ding, ding, ding! That’s where I’m leaning, too. The acknowledgment of that. It’s a lot to get one’s head around. A LOT. Every level 10 I’ve experienced is always for someone with no long-term potential. And I don’t think that makes me unique. I think you’re pretty darn lucky if your levels 10s turn out to be good for you after the limerence dies. I kind of resent people who are able to pick good partners through the haze/crazy of limerence.
“But … we’re not always thinking that far ahead during the hormone flood at the start, are we? 🙂”
No, but I’m wondering if it just takes a certain level of emotional intelligence to override it. Tell yourself: Hey, I’m experiencing this flood of hormones, and it’s powerful, but that doesn’t mean I have to think it means more than it does (no, this is almost certainly not the love of my life) and I don’t need to lose my mind over it.
“Sex. You can’t know that if you haven’t tried. And as you’ve said before, the level of limerence doesn’t correlate to how good the sex is, if you (plural) do even get as far as trying.”
I don’t understand how you’d know you wouldn’t work sexually unless you’d tried it. Unless you’ve had long, detailed conversations about what you both like sexually. Which, personally, I think is a bit strange unless you intend to hook up.
“I’m surprised you didn’t add something like ‘as your side will always want to’ 🙂.”
Your side wants to add sex. You certainly don’t always want to add commitment.
“In a nutshell, we can only say someone got away, if we showed them there was something there to stay with or go away from.”
I think you’d have to be in a relationship with them for a while to determine if you were compatible to know if they were “one who got away.” Otherwise, it’s a lot of projection, hope, fantasy … the usual.
“It’s been that pattern, not one where I take a stranger home on the night I meet them. There have been just a couple of exceptions ever. And even with those, I found myself wanting to get emotionally connected to them afterwards (it didn’t happen, in either case, and the wish to connect went away pretty quickly).”
But did you want these women to be your girlfriend or did you want an FWB? Those are two very different things. That would include the women you went on a few dates with and then hooked up with.
I’m not knocking your pattern, but if I were to start dating again, I would do it differently this time. I would slow it way down. I’m not hooking up with anyone if we don’t know each other well enough or if it’s too soon to have the “what are we?” conversation. It’s too big of a dice to roll.
“It’s not fun, no. For me, in line with that almost ‘drowning’ analogy, it brought on the most horrendous spell of tiredness and lethargy. I felt I was operating at 30% battery and dropping – almost too sub-par to go to work / do the basics of daily life. ”
Yep. That is where I’m at.
“My hunch is that part of the problem is how limerence puts us on 150% battery all the time, for months/years; there is then a debt to be paid.”
It’s depression. You’re not going to get what you want. And you know it. On top of that, if you’ve accepted that you won’t get what you want, you’ve more than likely ripped yourself away from the source of the dopamine.
“I’ve been doing the odd new thing the last few months, in and out of work – that is ‘all mine’, and doesn’t involve either SO or LO. ”
But it doesn’t involve other women, does it? Sorry, couldn’t help myself. 🙂
“That’s helped – it’s too easy to forget to do it. I hope to have space to think about bigger work decisions this year.”
I wish you luck with both.
Marcia,
“On that note … Did you seriously think of leaving your SO during your LE?”
Hmmm. Define ‘seriously’ (I jest)
OK – I could sit here and fib in my reply, but what’s really the point? So yeah I did (lim-brain) think about it at times – which I find hard to admit ‘out loud’. But never to the point where I got really close to *acting* on it, or where my Exec brain lost the ability to fight against it.
It is hard to unpack my answer more without me getting verbose – and anyway you didn’t ask me to explain my answer.
“Isn’t that kind of what most people experience at the beginning of a mutual-interest relationship? Some form of limerence or limerent-like feelings?”
Well, apparently half the population (non lim tribe) don’t, and we’re talking a different language to them?!
[“But … we’re not always thinking that far ahead during the hormone flood at the start, are we? ”]
“No, but I’m wondering if it just takes a certain level of emotional intelligence to override it.”
I’d like to hope you’re right. But we wouldn’t know until it’s tested, whether being armed with all that knowledge and emotional intelligence is enough to overcome the flood. I think that’s different when you’re available than when you’re not, too. Say an LO has imperfections as a partner for me, that I have figured out. Can I resist the siren song of limerence when I’m partnered? Yes. If I’m single? Most probably not.
“I don’t understand how you’d know you wouldn’t work sexually unless you’d tried it.”
I don’t know that we wouldn’t – I wasn’t trying to say that. I just meant I don’t know either way.
“I think you’d have to be in a relationship with them for a while to determine if you were compatible to know if they were “one who got away.” Otherwise, it’s a lot of projection, hope, fantasy … the usual.”
For sure. Without that, the getting away is mainly in our head. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t feel real to us, mind you.
“But did you want these women to be your girlfriend or did you want an FWB?”
It’s a tough one because at the time I probably thought girlfriend, but with hindsight neither of those women were good compatibility prospects. And the FWB setup doesn’t appeal to me. They are either a friend (without B) or it’s the real deal. You may find it hard to believe but I dislike those grey swampy areas in between.
“I’m not knocking your pattern, but if I were to start dating again, I would do it differently this time … slow it way down”
That’s totally fair. We have to go with what we think works for us at the time. And you’ve got a good reason for feeling that way.
“Yep. That is where I’m at.”
I’m sorry. It sucks. Cut yourself as much slack as you can while you pass through it. It doesn’t last forever, just feels like it will. DoH is still a (necessary but evil) step on from the still-limerent stage.
“It’s depression. You’re not going to get what you want. And you know it. On top of that, if you’ve accepted that you won’t get what you want, you’ve more than likely ripped yourself away from the source of the dopamine.”
Yep. It’s like cutting what you’ve been using as your oxygen supply. Other oxygen exist but we forget how to breathe it properly for a while.
“But it doesn’t involve other women, does it? Sorry, couldn’t help myself.”
Very good your ladyship 🙂 As with any new group activity that isn’t signing up for some male-only club, there are females present (and males)! But no, nothing ‘like that’. Only in the same way we encounter both in our workplace, sports centres, coffeehouses, say.
LaR,
“OK – I could sit here and fib in my reply, but what’s really the point? So yeah I did (lim-brain) think about it at times – which I find hard to admit ‘out loud’. But never to the point where I got really close to *acting* on it, or where my Exec brain lost the ability to fight against it.”
It was a selfish question. I was just wondering if the partnered limerent every really thinks about leaving. Or if you always know you’ll never leave and you plan to go “right up to the line” and maintain your sideage. And, yes, please answer why or why not? Get verbose. I know you love to. 🙂 But do some basic editing to make sure what you wrote makes sense. When you get verbose, we know what happens. 🙂
So here are some basic reasons I think people don’t leave. Correct me if I’m wrong. Add new ones, etc.
1.) Love. Your SO is “your person” and, deep down, you know it. You won’t find someone who better understands you or clicks with in the same way, etc.
2.) Comfort. It’s too big a pain in the ass to have to look for a new place and move out and buy all new crap and divide up the assets, etc. (You’re not married, right, so you wouldn’t have to divorce? But do you own property together?)
3.) Fear. You could leave your SO and your LO could reject you. Then you’d have to go back out into the dating marketplace again. And/or the fear of being alone.
4.) Family. You don’t have kids, right? But maybe your families are entwined.
5.) Money. (self-explanatory)
6.) Insufficient temptation. LO’s pretty great, but not great enough. Not enough to rip apart your whole life.
That’s what I could come up with off the top of my head.
“Well, apparently half the population (non lim tribe) don’t, and we’re talking a different language to them?!”
I’d say most people experience some form of “falling in love” in the beginning. What I think separates the lims from the non-lims is that when most people, for example, get rejected, they move on a lot of faster and don’t get as obsessive.
“I’d like to hope you’re right. But we wouldn’t know until it’s tested, whether being armed with all that knowledge and emotional intelligence is enough to overcome the flood. ”
But don’t you have enough info now? Enough that if you glimmer at someone 3 years from now you could put the brakes on the process before things went off into the ditch?
“Can I resist the siren song of limerence when I’m partnered? Yes. If I’m single? Most probably not.”
But you haven’t resisted the siren song, have you? Aren’t you limerent? Haven’t many married/partnered limerents on here had repeated LEs? To me, “resisting the siren song” is backing away from the POTENTIAL LO before things go off into the ditch (a new LE starts).
“I don’t know that we wouldn’t – I wasn’t trying to say that. I just meant I don’t know either way.”
Ok. I’m not sure what your point is. I think I’m missing it. 🙂 I mean, in bringing the sexual aspect up at all.
“For sure. Without that, the getting away is mainly in our head. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t feel real to us, mind you.”
Yes, but if one is emotionally intelligent, doesn’t that mean they know it’s not real?
” And the FWB setup doesn’t appeal to me. They are either a friend (without B) or it’s the real deal. You may find it hard to believe but I dislike those grey swampy areas in between.”
I’m going to write that down. 🙂 Because sometimes there are members of your side who can have SEVERAL FWBs going on at the same time.
[“I’m not knocking your pattern, but if I were to start dating again, I would do it differently this time … slow it way down”]
“That’s totally fair. We have to go with what we think works for us at the time. And you’ve got a good reason for feeling that way.”
It’s not really my style. I’m really not “that kind of girl.” 🙂 I don’t really believe in the protocols of traditional dating. Or I’ve tried to dispense with them or go around them. In hindsight, I don’t think it’s an effective strategy for a woman if she has a soul. 🙂
“DoH is still a (necessary but evil) step on from the still-limerent stage.”
It’s not just the DoH. It’s the feeling of utter futility. I could reach out to him. Would he respond? Idk. I’m leaning toward no, but I don’t really know. But even if he did, what’s the point? There isn’t one now and even worse than that … there never was one.
“Other oxygen exist but we forget how to breathe it properly for a while.”
Not the same kind of oxygen.
“As with any new group activity that isn’t signing up for some male-only club”
You should be focusing on male-only stuff. Hang out at home improvement stores, for example. 🙂
“Only in the same way we encounter both in our workplace, sports centres, coffeehouses, say.”
And therein lies the problem. 🙂
Marcia
“Get verbose. I know you love to. 🙂 But do some basic editing to make sure what you wrote makes sense. When you get verbose, we know what happens. 🙂”
OK, I will. Now, to do that does create one of those questions I might tie myself in knots trying to answer, so that point may take a bit longer … I’ll most probably continue the rest of our thread later on, and tackle that part at the weekend.
“You should be focusing on male-only stuff. Hang out at home improvement stores, for example. 🙂”
Perfect – I should focus on becoming an expert at all forms of DIY (I am SO far away from that!). That’ll keep me out of harm’s way.
Here, we actually have something that used to be called “Men’s Sheds” (I think gender legislation means they can’t officially be called it anymore). But the idea is, a load of men go along, mess around mending things for the public good, and probably talk minimally by grunting. Kind of like “dull mens’ club” (I jest, if any readers attend anything like that – I actually think they’re a massively good idea for many reasons). I am about 15-20 years younger than anyone who attends them, but do you think I should sign up?
“…That’s what I could come up with off the top of my head.”
Everything up to there, I promise I’m coming back to very soon, when I have a moment to sharpen up my editing skills.
“What I think separates the lims from the non-lims is that when most people, for example, get rejected, they move on a lot of faster and don’t get as obsessive.”
Yeah, it doesn’t become the be all and end all. Perhaps even while they’re having the initial attraction, they might give off more of a ‘take or leave’ vibe than limerents would.
“But don’t you have enough info now? Enough that if you glimmer at someone 3 years from now you could put the brakes on the process before things went off into the ditch?”
Yes, I believe I do.
[“Can I resist the siren song of limerence when I’m partnered? Yes. If I’m single? Most probably not.”]
“But you haven’t resisted the siren song, have you?”
I was using myself as only an example here to say I think it should he easier for a partnered limmie, than a single limmie, to resist an LO who has that level 10 ‘danger’ we were talking about before.
“To me, “resisting the siren song” is backing away from the POTENTIAL LO before things go off into the ditch (a new LE starts).”
Yes. If we’re talking about future episodes I’d say I could see the danger and stop it at source. That’s easier than digging my way out of an LE I already dug myself into. It’s about not repeating a mistake now I understand properly the reasons and the outcomes.
“Ok. I’m not sure what your point is. I think I’m missing it. I mean, in bringing the sexual aspect up at all.”
I don’t know – maybe just more insight into the male mind 😆 I think we were discussing what I did and didn’t know about mine and LO’s compatibility, was the broad context.
“Yes, but if one is emotionally intelligent, doesn’t that mean they know it’s not real?”
I haven’t always found that emotional intelligence wins the fight with pure emotion. Look how many limerents start here in denial of what they’re going to have to face.
“I’m going to write that down. Because sometimes there are members of your side who can have SEVERAL FWBs going on at the same time.”
Are we talking men south of 40 years old here?
“In hindsight, I don’t think it’s an effective strategy for a woman if she has a soul.”
What isn’t? More traditional dating strategies, or trying to go around them?
“It’s not just the DoH. It’s the feeling of utter futility. I could reach out to him. Would he respond? Idk. I’m leaning toward no, but I don’t really know. But even if he did, what’s the point?”
Your final sentence says it all to me. Say you did reach out and he circled back round (I know that’s not what you’d expect, but come with me here). That would be opening yourself up to resetting the clock back to last summer-ish time and having to go through all the phases again even to get back to DoH. And I wouldn’t wish that on you.
“Not the same kind of oxygen.”
I get it – really I do.
LaR,
“I’ll most probably continue the rest of our thread later on, and tackle that part at the weekend.”
You’ve already failed the most basic test. There was really only one acceptable reason in my list to pick. 🙂
Oh, another reason that I can’t believe I forgot: Commitment. There are people who will not leave, under any or almost any circumstances.
“Perfect – I should focus on becoming an expert at all forms of DIY (I am SO far away from that!). That’ll keep me out of harm’s way.”
Just as I intend to join some knitting groups and book clubs. 🙂
“I actually think they’re a massively good idea for many reasons).”
I think men need men friends. Just as women need women friends. Men are going to understand you in ways a woman never can. You need that comradery. And what you’re talking about … the men’s grunt club … 🙂 … it is a good idea. You’re doing something for the public good. As opposed to getting together to … cruise and pick up women. 🙂
” I am about 15-20 years younger than anyone who attends them, but do you think I should sign up?”
Do you have a tool belt? 🙂
“I promise I’m coming back to very soon, when I have a moment to sharpen up my editing skills.”
I don’t have that kind of time left on the planet. 🙂
“Yeah, it doesn’t become the be all and end all. Perhaps even while they’re having the initial attraction, they might give off more of a ‘take or leave’ vibe than limerents would.”
You don’t think the average, non-limerent can genuinely fall in love?
“I was using myself as only an example here to say I think it should he easier for a partnered limmie, than a single limmie, to resist an LO who has that level 10 ‘danger’ we were talking about before.”
But it was easy in that an offer wasn’t on the table. You don’t know what you would have done if she’d made an offer.
“It’s about not repeating a mistake now I understand properly the reasons and the outcomes.”
There’s a period of early glimmer where I believe one can decide to shut it down. You can feel when you’re about to open Pandora’s Box.
“I don’t know – maybe just more insight into the male mind 😆 I think we were discussing what I did and didn’t know about mine and LO’s compatibility, was the broad context.”
But I don’t understand why you count sex as a possible incompatibility if you’ve never had sex. Now, if you had made out … that could possibly tell you something about how the rest of the physical stuff would go.
“Look how many limerents start here in denial of what they’re going to have to face.”
Tbh, I read a lot of posts about the pain of limerence but not many, for example, where the limerent self reflects about why they’ve had repeated LEs and what they are doing to try to prevent new ones. Sorry. I’m being honest.
“Are we talking men south of 40 years old here?”
I do know one man who was over 40 who had several at one point, yes. He actually married one of them. So much for that “men put women into categories” theory. “Not interested,” “a bit of fun,” “relationship material.”
[“In hindsight, I don’t think it’s an effective strategy for a woman if she has a soul.”]
“What isn’t? More traditional dating strategies, or trying to go around them?”
Trying to go around them.
“Your final sentence says it all to me. Say you did reach out and he circled back round (I know that’s not what you’d expect, but come with me here). That would be opening yourself up to resetting the clock back to last summer-ish time and having to go through all the phases again even to get back to DoH. And I wouldn’t wish that on you.”
I suppose I have this ridiculous notion that he could have developed some feelings if I hadn’t slammed the door so quickly. I’m probably lying to myself. But, really, again … does it matter? It was a dead-end. And even if he contacted me tomorrow and said he was newly single … that’s still a train wreck waiting to happen. Because I’d be all focused on him. But after getting out of a long-term relationship, who do you think he’d me focused on? And if I said, “Call me in 6 months when you’ve processed things a bit,” by then he’d probably be with someone else.
Marcia,
“You’ve already failed the most basic test. There was really only one acceptable reason in my list to pick.”
Feel free to tell me I’ve lost after I have tried 🙂
“Just as I intend to join some knitting groups and book clubs.”
I can imagine you at a book club, but not a knitting group. To clarify – I don’t on any level see book club membership as a bad thing.
“I think men need men friends. Just as women need women friends.”
I agree. The way men don’t really speak properly with men acts as a barrier. It’s maybe getting better among younger men.
“And what you’re talking about … the men’s grunt club … … it is a good idea. You’re doing something for the public good.”
It really is. That’s why I had to make it clear I was jesting when I poked fun of it.
Do you have a tool belt?
Yep – SO bought me one 😂
[“I promise I’m coming back to very soon, when I have a moment to sharpen up my editing skills.]
“I don’t have that kind of time left on the planet.”
Received
(Please note, I answered that part in ONE WORD)
“You don’t think the average, non-limerent can genuinely fall in love?”
No, not saying that. Just that they’d be less intense and obsessive about it.
“But it was easy in that an offer wasn’t on the table. You don’t know what you would have done if she’d made an offer.”
No, I don’t. I’m grateful to her that she never put me in that position. If she even wanted to.
Yet another point on the list of reasons I think she’s great 🙄
“you can feel when you’re about to open Pandora’s Box.”
I agree – even if I may not have done in the past when you’ve said it.
“Tbh, I read a lot of posts about the pain of limerence but not many, for example, where the limerent self reflects about why they’ve had repeated LEs and what they are doing to try to prevent new ones. Sorry. I’m being honest.”
Fair, but, how many limerents have you seen through here who have had multiple LEs during their time on LwL? Not many? Most have history of several LEs but come here in the midst of one LE in particular and then get stuck in that same one for ages.
“I do know one man who was over 40 who had several at one point, yes. He actually married one of them.”
He must have either looked after himself well and/or earned well!
” So much for that “men put women into categories” theory. “Not interested,” “a bit of fun,” “relationship material.” ”
They’re more your categories than mine 🙂
“Trying to go around them.”
I think a certain amount of holding your (plural) self back is expected, and healthy, at the start . Though sometimes I long to just cut through the BS and go with the flow.
“I suppose I have this ridiculous notion that he could have developed some feelings if I hadn’t slammed the door so quickly.”
It didn’t sound – at the time – like you slammed the door. More like you laid out your terms of engagement and you were on different pages.
“And even if he contacted me tomorrow and said he was newly single … that’s still a train wreck waiting to happen.”
Probably. Although every case is different.
“And if I said, “Call me in 6 months when you’ve processed things a bit,” by then he’d probably be with someone else.”
I know we’re talking hypotheticals, but that would be a better way to go, in terms of finding out if he’s a longer term prospect. If I cared for someone enough and they said that to me, then I’d just wait out the 6 months without a second thought.
LaR,
“Feel free to tell me I’ve lost after I have tried 🙂”
You know how I feel about all talk and no delivery. 🙂
“I can imagine you at a book club, but not a knitting group. To clarify – I don’t on any level see book club membership as a bad thing.”
Depends on what they’re reading.
“The way men don’t really speak properly with men acts as a barrier. It’s maybe getting better among younger men.”
What do you mean by “speak properly”? I find the way men talk to each other rather interesting. Or the way they relate to each other. It’s so different than how women talk and relate to each other.
[Do you have a tool belt?]
“Yep – SO bought me one 😂”
Do you actually use it? 🙂
“(Please note, I answered that part in ONE WORD)”
I wouldn’t have minded a little more (albeit bullshit) elaboration about how I have all kinds of time left. 🙂
” Just that they’d be less intense and obsessive about it.”
Yes. And once you realize that (if you’re the limerent) … it’s depressing. The one LO who became a boyfriend … I don’t think he ever felt it like I did. I don’t think he could. He wasn’t that type. He monkey-branched from one relationship to another.
“Yet another point on the list of reasons I think she’s great 🙄”
We’re very, very different people. I would have put that on the “reasons my LE was a waste of time” list.
“I agree – even if I may not have done in the past when you’ve said it.”
For my LE, anyway, there was a definite turning point.
“Fair, but, how many limerents have you seen through here who have had multiple LEs during their time on LwL? Not many? Most have history of several LEs but come here in the midst of one LE in particular and then get stuck in that same one for ages.”
Yes, few have multiple LEs while on the site but a good number have had previous LEs in the past and they’re having yet another LE while on the site, and I don’t see very many (if any) posts digging into, for example, why they keep becoming limerent.
“He must have either looked after himself well and/or earned well!”
He has a good job. But based on that job, I don’t think he’s super wealthy, although I of course haven’t read his bank statements. But, no, he’s not particularly good looking. I was surprised to hear that he had more than fwb going on.
“They’re more your categories than mine 🙂”
They’re not mine. I get them from the male dating coaches I follow.
“I think a certain amount of holding your (plural) self back is expected, and healthy, at the start . Though sometimes I long to just cut through the BS and go with the flow.”
So … “go with the flow” is “guy speak” for: I’m down for anything — it will more than likely be casual– but I don’t want to come out and say that because the woman will run screaming.
I meant the traditional dating protocol — he approaches, he asks her out, he continues to ask her out, the communication/time spent seeing each other builds, and then they have “the talk” and commit to not seeing anyone else and sex. Do I think that’s probably the best way to do it if a woman is looking for a serious relationship? Yes. But is there another part of me that thinks: Let’s bypass all of that and read the last page of the book right now? Yes. Do I need to spell out what that means? 🙂
“It didn’t sound – at the time – like you slammed the door. ”
I think we were on different pages based on something he said. Shortly after that, over email, I shut the door on things continuing. And he was kind of abrupt with me and then stopped responding. We had no conversation about terms.
“Probably. Although every case is different.”
I would question anyone who could dive into a new relationship right after a long-term one ended. They’re either not processing it and stuffing it down or they weren’t all that attached to their previous partner. And what does that say about their potential attachment to me?
” If I cared for someone enough and they said that to me, then I’d just wait out the 6 months without a second thought.”
Most men don’t stay single very long. (I’m sure there are women who are the same, but we’re talking here about men.)
Marcia,
“What do you mean by “speak properly”?”
I meant ‘about emotions’. This will sound cheesy, but when Adam and MJ chat to each other it can be a nice thing to witness because they open up. I don’t do or see much of that between men in the real world.
“I find the way men talk to each other rather interesting. Or the way they relate to each other. It’s so different than how women talk and relate to each other.”
Please expand!
“Do you actually use it?”
It’s been known 🙂
“I wouldn’t have minded a little more (albeit bullshit) elaboration about how I have all kinds of time left.”
It’s why they call this bit ‘midlife’, right? So much still to ‘look forward’ to!
“He monkey-branched from one relationship to another.”
I know men like that. It feels like they’re doing it just because they’re incapable of being alone.
“We’re very, very different people. I would have put that on the “reasons my LE was a waste of time” list.”
There is a lot wrapped up there. I was talking about being grateful she didn’t put me / us in an awkward position.
Has it been a waste of time? In terms of the years that have ticked by while I’ve been stuck in it, yeah definitely. But in other ways, definitely not – I have got a lot out of the friendship – new interests, old revived ones, got out of the doldrums at work, etc
“For my LE, anyway, there was a definite turning point.”
What, like a ‘ratchet’ moment? Did that feel good or more like “I’m in trouble here”?
For me the turning point when it slipped into “I know this is wrong” was when she started to regularly ask me to hang out outside of work hours, and I stopped saying no.
“I don’t see very many (if any) posts digging into, for example, why they keep becoming limerent.”
The female posters are better at that (I circle back to my point about men ‘not really talking’). I think the immediate mayhem of the height of an LE needs to be resolved before we can do that digging. Many of the men here don’t hang around after they’ve done that part.
“So … “go with the flow” is “guy speak” for: I’m down for anything — it will more than likely be casual– but I don’t want to come out and say that because the woman will run screaming.”
Idk – I have never approached dating like that – I have always been more traditional. But the last time I was in the dating market, I was in my mid 30s. It has changed so much since then. Like most things in life, it’s so much more about instant gratification.
What I meant by go with the flow is like my example of how SO and I got intimate on our second date. That was nice. Not to have to follow some rulebook that says “thou shalt do this and that before this and that”. Surprise and unpredictability is sometimes good. And we stayed together despite not starting via the rulebook.
“Let’s bypass all of that and read the last page of the book right now? “Yes. “Do I need to spell out what that means?”
No, you don’t 🙂. It’s the same as what I was trying to say above.
“I think we were on different pages based on something he said. Shortly after that, over email, I shut the door on things continuing.”
FWIW, if you were right about the different pages, then by shutting it you saved yourself from worse turmoil longer term.
“And he was kind of abrupt with me and then stopped responding. We had no conversation about terms.”
Do you think he went into a (purely self centred) damage-limitation or self preservation mode?
“I would question anyone who could dive into a new relationship right after a long-term one ended.”
You are pushing at an open door on this point.
[”If I cared for someone enough and they said that to me, then I’d just wait out the 6 months without a second thought.”]
“Most men don’t stay single very long. (I’m sure there are women who are the same, but we’re talking here about men.)”
That’s where my ‘if I cared for someone enough’ clause is important.
Haven’t forgotten the rest. I’ve written the clunky version out and just need to edit it.
LaR,
“This will sound cheesy, but when Adam and MJ chat to each other it can be a nice thing to witness because they open up. I don’t do or see much of that between men in the real world.”
But aren’t you getting something different from male friends? Isn’t the whole reason to have a male friend that you’re getting something different?
[“I find the way men talk to each other rather interesting. Or the way they relate to each other. It’s so different than how women talk and relate to each other.”]
“Please expand!”
So women talk and share and care. Depending on the closeness of the friendship. You reveal your “stuff,” your secrets, your thoughts and feelings. The idea is to support each other. Not that female friendships can’t get messy. They really can because I think the expectations are high after all that sharing/caring. And I think women can also get really competitive with each other. And nasty.
With men, it seems to be a comradery to be accepted into the male pack, the male hierarchy. With this “Hey, man!” and “Hey, bro!” I ‘m not making fun of it. When I watch it, I’m kind of baffled and intrigued at the same time. There’s a whole language and way of relating that is different. It’s almost like a recognition. One man recognizing the other as a bro. Again, I’m not making fun of it. This is just me watching conversations between male co-workers.
[“Do you actually use it?”]
“It’s been known 🙂”
?
“It’s why they call this bit ‘midlife’, right? So much still to ‘look forward’ to!”
But is there, really?
“I know men like that. It feels like they’re doing it just because they’re incapable of being alone.”
That’s one of the reasons (certainly not the only one) that relationship tanked. I never believed he really picked me. His need to not be alone was greater.
“There is a lot wrapped up there. I was talking about being grateful she didn’t put me / us in an awkward position.”
Gotcha. Again, I’m looking at it from a different perspective. But after all that time and energy and angst … to not even know if she was interested. Yes, I would feel like I wasted my time.
“But in other ways, definitely not – I have got a lot out of the friendship – new interests, old revived ones, got out of the doldrums at work, etc”
The friendship with her? Wasn’t part of that fueled by limerence? So with my male friend … we were getting pretty close for a time. Not a long time but I really did think we were going to become close friends. By that I mean someone who’s an almost daily presence in your life, you’re checking up on each other, spending a decent amount of time together. After his disclosure, it fell back to a garden-variety, decent-level friendship (less communication, less seeing each other), which I think it would have been all along had he not be driven by something else, which I didn’t know at the time. That’s a guess on my part.
But if your interests were sparked in other things, that’s a good thing. Did you start working out? A lot of limerents seem to start working out. 🙂
“What, like a ‘ratchet’ moment? Did that feel good or more like “I’m in trouble here”?”
It was after he reached out with the first email to my personal email address. It was kind of innocuous in terms of what he wrote, but it really got me thinking. WHHAAAAAT is he doing? And I shouldn’t have reached out after that (days later, after the first conversation died). I knew I was poking the bear. I never expected him to write what he did (disclosure).
(It’s what I was trying to say to MJ. If I woman is interested … you’ll know. Maybe not immediately. (You keep telling me men aren’t good at reading the signs of interest. :)) You will probably have to make the first move, but after that … she’s going to help you out. You do a little, she does a little, etc.)
“For me the turning point when it slipped into “I know this is wrong” was when she started to regularly ask me to hang out outside of work hours, and I stopped saying no.”
I’m confused. You were already friends. Why were you saying no to hanging out? So you never hung out with her outside of work until you were limerent?
“The female posters are better at that (I circle back to my point about men ‘not really talking’). I think the immediate mayhem of the height of an LE needs to be resolved before we can do that digging. Many of the men here don’t hang around after they’ve done that part.”
I’ll take your word for it. I have not read all the posts and kept up with all the conversations/threads. But what I have read is a lot of “I’m in pain over the limerence” or “What my LO is doing is hurtful” or “I don’t understand what my LO is doing” or “This is what I’m doing to manage the LE with a co-worker.” But not posts that are self-reflective.
“Idk – I have never approached dating like that – I have always been more traditional. ”
I’m just saying: Whenever I hear “go with the flow,” it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. 🙂 It’s a guy’s disclaimer. He’s leaving himself a LOT of latitude in terms of expectations from the woman. It’s usually followed with something like: “I could be open to more if I met the right person.” As to give some hope for more when there probably is none. To be clear, I don’t have a problem with a man looking for something casual. But I don’t like the word soup b.s. It feels manipulative.
“What I meant by go with the flow is like my example of how SO and I got intimate on our second date. That was nice. Not to have to follow some rulebook that says “thou shalt do this and that before this and that”. Surprise and unpredictability is sometimes good. And we stayed together despite not starting via the rulebook.”
I’m right there with you, but when I’ve done that, the other side’s intentions seemed to be for casual.
“FWIW, if you were right about the different pages, then by shutting it you saved yourself from worse turmoil longer term.”
I get that. Which is in part why I did shut it down. But has it never happened that feelings grew from what was once thought of as casual? I have a hard time believing that’s never happened. Now, whether it would have in this instance, I don’t know.
“Do you think he went into a (purely self centred) damage-limitation or self preservation mode?”
Ultimately, yes. But the limerent brain wants to interpret it differently.
“That’s where my ‘if I cared for someone enough’ clause is important.”
I’m not implying you wouldn’t wait, but I just can’t imagine it. I can’t imagine a man doing that. I can’t imagine some other women showing up within that six months and him not moving on it.
“Haven’t forgotten the rest. I’ve written the clunky version out and just need to edit it.”
WHAT are you writing? 🙂
Marcia,
“But aren’t you getting something different from male friends?”
True. I have some male friends where it just never feels complicated. Like I can not speak to them for 6 months and just pick straight back up where we left off with no drama or questions asked. Very casual, but nice for it. I can’t imagine that working as well with female friends.
“There’s a whole language and way of relating that is different. It’s almost like a recognition. One man recognizing the other as a bro.”
Yes, it is funny. But on a more serious note, because men don’t often chat and support each other with their ‘stuff’, a lot of bottling up goes on that isn’t helpful.
I do have a few male friendships where we chat, support etc. There is one notable guy where it really goes both ways and has done for decades. But there are others who seem to want to pull on me for support but are pretty rubbish at giving it back. Two years ago, I told a couple of male friends about my LE and they were worse than useless with their responses.
[“It’s why they call this bit ‘midlife’, right? So much still to ‘look forward’ to!”]
“But is there, really?”
You asked for some BS. I delivered 🙂
But I do think we can always take small actions to give ourselves more to look forward to.
“But after all that time and energy and angst … to not even know if she was interested. Yes, I would feel like I wasted my time.”
I suspect that she was, but that she also held back for all the obvious reasons. But I don’t have anything concrete to prove it. I’m OK with not knowing now. I read and read stuff on here where DrL said that in the end, you just have to get comfortable with the not knowing. Working on that mindset was a big part of healing from it as far as I’ve managed to. By about 18 months of the LE, I’d totally accepted the fact of not knowing.
[“But in other ways, definitely not – I have got a lot out of the friendship”]
“Wasn’t part of that fueled by limerence?”
Definitely fuelled by it and changed by it.
“By that I mean someone who’s an almost daily presence in your life, you’re checking up on each other, spending a decent amount of time together.”
That’s pretty much where me and LO were too.
“After his disclosure, it fell back to a garden-variety, decent-level friendship (less communication, less seeing each other)”
So would you say the disclosure took it back to where it was kind of ‘meant to be’? Or would you have preferred it if he hadn’t disclosed and you carried on more like you were?
Part of me knows I’m ‘faking’ LO by never disclosing and still being in a ‘friendship’ that, let’s face it, means something very different to me than what I’ve ever said. On the other, I have *actually* given her friendship for all that time. She could and would have closed that down if she wasn’t OK with it. Correct me if you feel this analysis is way off. As I know you would 🙂
“Did you start working out? A lot of limerents seem to start working out.”
Nope, but I need to! For myself, not for limerence.
“I knew I was poking the bear.”
And now you wish you never had?
“I’m confused. You were already friends. Why were you saying no to hanging out?”
Not always saying no, but a lot of the time. The reason was because it would have competed with time that I could have spent with SO. Before the LE, I wasn’t really on for letting her ‘steal SO’s time’.
“So you never hung out with her outside of work until you were limerent?”
Rarely. It was nearly all within work hours back then.
“To be clear, I don’t have a problem with a man looking for something casual. But I don’t like the word soup b.s. It feels manipulative.”
That’s fair.
“I’m right there with you, but when I’ve done that, the other side’s intentions seemed to be for casual.”
I think you’re right for most cases. Especially with the dating market as it is now, and double especially if you meet on a dating app.
“But has it never happened that feelings grew from what was once thought of as casual? I have a hard time believing that’s never happened. Now, whether it would have in this instance, I don’t know.”
For sure it does happen, but it’s going to be a really bumpy ride trying to make it happen when there is an SO in the picture.
“Ultimately, yes. But the limerent brain wants to interpret it differently.”
What does lim-brain try to say? (Only answer this part if you want to. I respect you might not want to).
“I can’t imagine some other women showing up within that six months and him not moving on it.”
I can only speak for myself. My whole life, I have crushed on one person at a time, and not been at all bothered about anything else until the crush passed.
Marcia,
So, you asked me about whether I thought about leaving SO, and why I didn’t.
Originally, I would have answered that “all wrongly” – I would have focused on how I felt a combination of my brain and LO led me up to the line in a few different ways. But you probably know most of that. I haven’t said this before but there was just once, early on (a few months in), that LO gave me a ‘ratchet’ signal. I don’t want to give all the detail. It had plausible deniability but I strongly felt it was a ratchet. If I was ever going to take it, it would have been then. But I didn’t, even though my limerence then was sky high. I thought at the time that that said a lot for my wish to stay with SO.
You were right in all your assumptions about SO and I – what commitments we do and don’t have together. You probably also need the context that before my LE started, we were going through a pretty difficult spell that needed work to fix. That continued on and off until the point I’ll describe below.
Big things in favour of mine and SO’s relationship – we both ‘get’ and care deeply about the other. We like doing similar things, so the day to day of life like where to go to eat, or for a day out, or for holidays etc is always easy between us. And when you think how long we might have in life, all of that is really important to me in a partner.
I wouldn’t have that compatibility with LO. LO is very much ‘her own person’ (won’t do anything unless it’s her decision). I really respect that, but it could get tricky in a relationship. SO is no pushover herself, don’t get me wrong. But there is a lot more give and take so that (most of the time) we probably get ‘heard’ equally.
Eventually I hit a point where I was pretty sure one of them had to go – I was spread too thin. Me and SO went right up to the line at one point (conversations about whether to stay together). I blame a combination of my behaviour due to the LE (and cause unknown to SO) and the events before it. It could easily have gone the other way if SO wasn’t a tolerant person and committed to ‘us’ herself. But when that possibility became real, it wasn’t what I wanted. I wanted to take the steps needed to recover it – we have both invested a lot to get to where we are, and I didn’t want to throw it away.
I told LO broadly where SO and I were at (without implicating her) and asked for space. She got me, and she gave me it. I think she was kind of relieved we’d had the conversation. We started to come back into each other’s orbits a few months later, but both much more cautiously, and that’s how it’s stayed. I don’t regret my decisions. Yes, there will always be the frustration at ‘what wasn’t’, but breaking up with SO over it would have been worse.
LaR,
“True. I have some male friends where it just never feels complicated. Like I can not speak to them for 6 months and just pick straight back up where we left off with no drama or questions asked. Very casual, but nice for it. I can’t imagine that working as well with female friends.”
There’s an SNL sketch where the guy has female friends and then a male friend. He says the female friends can be a lot. Expect a lot. With the male friend, he says to him (I’m paraphrasing), “Hey, I’m leaving town and won’t be back for 5 years.” There’s a pause, and then the male friend says, “Just hit me up when you get back.” It’s funny.
But I meant that men and women are different. They think differently. They experience the world differently. You get different things from them.
” But there are others who seem to want to pull on me for support but are pretty rubbish at giving it back. ”
It can be like that for women and potential female friends, too. They always talk about themselves or manage to bring the conversation back to themselves.
“Two years ago, I told a couple of male friends about my LE and they were worse than useless with their responses.”
I experienced that with female friends as well. Just because they’re women doesn’t mean they’re good at listening and being compassionate.
Now, with a couple (and this is about my last big LO) … they acted like what was happening with him wasn’t a big deal. In retrospect, they were right. They were trying to tell me the truth (and both were fairly nice about it), but I didn’t want to listen. At the time I felt dismissed.
“You asked for some BS. I delivered 🙂”
True dat. 🙂
” suspect that she was, but that she also held back for all the obvious reasons. But I don’t have anything concrete to prove it.”
Personally, I like verbal confirmation. 🙂 That’s me. My last big LO was obvious, but I was surprised with LO-lite. I suspected he might be at least somewhat interested, but I never expected him to say anything or that the interest was enough to say anything.
” I’m OK with not knowing now. I read and read stuff on here where DrL said that in the end, you just have to get comfortable with the not knowing. ”
I think it’s good advice. I also think you (general “you”) have to be comfortable with not getting closure. You probably aren’t going to get it.
[“By that I mean someone who’s an almost daily presence in your life, you’re checking up on each other, spending a decent amount of time together.”]
“That’s pretty much where me and LO were too.”
But when? Before or after the limerence? (see below)
“So would you say the disclosure took it back to where it was kind of ‘meant to be’? ”
I’m saying that I think his interest in being close friends was fueled by his interest in a romantic relationship and now that he knows a romantic relationship isn’t on the table, he feels no incentive to maintain that closeness. No, I’m not a fan of that approach. 🙂 But this is a guess on my part.
“Or would you have preferred it if he hadn’t disclosed and you carried on more like you were?”
I’m glad he told me. Part of the reason for the friendship fraying, on my end, anyway, was the disclosure. It was awkward. But part of it was … I got to know him better (it takes time to get to know someone) and he’s not the person I thought he was. So the fraying might have happened, anyway.
“She could and would have closed that down if she wasn’t OK with it. Correct me if you feel this analysis is way off. As I know you would 🙂”
I can’t really answer that. I don’t know if she’d want to know. Or if knowing about your limerent feelings would make her feel manipulated or uncomfortable. I did have a married, male friend years ago who disclosed not limerence but interest and I’m glad he did. I thought we were buddies.
“And now you wish you never had?”
It’s hard for me to answer that. He may be the last LO I get my hands on. Do I need to spell out what that means? 🙂 It is an experience and it’s very rare. Idk. Ask me in a few months. I’m still too mired in it to be objective, although I’m less mired in it than I was.
“Not always saying no, but a lot of the time. The reason was because it would have competed with time that I could have spent with SO. Before the LE, I wasn’t really on for letting her ‘steal SO’s time’.”
You spend most of your time with your SO? You don’t hang out with friends?
[“So you never hung out with her outside of work until you were limerent?”]
“Rarely. It was nearly all within work hours back then.”
I wouldn’t consider that a close friend. Not if we never did anything outside of work (or wherever we met). I’ve had people I talked to quite a bit at work about personal stuff, but we never hung out. Or maybe every blue moon they’d go with a group of co-workers to get drinks right after work and text me every so often. I still wouldn’t consider them a close friends. Chances are, in both scenarios, if either of us left the job, the friendship would end. That’s how I knew I was wasting my time with my last big LO. I never communicated with him outside of work. Certainly never saw him outside of work.
“For sure it does happen, but it’s going to be a really bumpy ride trying to make it happen when there is an SO in the picture.”
But isn’t that what happened with you ? You had an SO and developed feelings for someone else?
“What does lim-brain try to say? ”
Just that me shutting it down might have hurt him beyond just a pride thing.
“I can only speak for myself. My whole life, I have crushed on one person at a time, and not been at all bothered about anything else until the crush passed.”
You have never gone on a date or hooked up with a woman you weren’t crushing on? (And by “crushing,” I mean some level of infatuation.) That’s a high standard that would be hard to meet. IMO. I certainly haven’t waited for that standard, and I have never assumed a guy asking me out/showing interest meant his interest was at crush level.
Per your tome …. 🙂 …. I’m teasing. Thank you for the detailed answer … It sounds like you know she’s a better partner for you and you have a lot invested. Nothing wrong with those answers.
But the first answer was the right one. 🙂 You think she’s your person. Do I believe in that? Yes, I do. I don’t see it a lot but I have seen it (been around couples who I sensed were each others’ person).
LaR,
I was mostly teasing. I do believe in the “each others’ person” concept. But you certainly weren’t required to answer in any particular way.
“It can be like that for women and potential female friends, too. They always talk about themselves or manage to bring the conversation back to themselves.”
Yep. How about those ones who ask you a question about you, and then answer it before you’ve had time … with *their* answer to it?!
[“Two years ago, I told a couple of male friends about my LE and they were worse than useless with their responses.”]
“I experienced that with female friends as well.”
These guys’ response was basically “if you’re going to have an affair, get on and have one. If you’re not, don’t”. To backtrack a bit, I guess it must be hard for anyone who hasn’t experienced limerence to try to relate to it.
“I was surprised with LO-lite. I suspected he might be at least somewhat interested, but I never expected him to say anything or that the interest was enough to say anything.”
I guess you never know until you try.
” I also think you (general “you”) have to be comfortable with not getting closure. You probably aren’t going to get it.”
Yes, that was the wording I was looking for. I think the post was called ‘Closure is an illusion’, and he said you just have to close it with yourself, because you’ll never close it with the LO.
[“That’s pretty much where me and LO were too.”]
“But when? Before or after the limerence?”
During the first 18 months of the limerence.
“I think his interest in being close friends was fueled by his interest in a romantic relationship and now that he knows a romantic relationship isn’t on the table, he feels no incentive to maintain that closeness.”
Yes – the previous closeness feels like ‘faking’ / only a bridge (in his mind) to more. Alternative explanations are available (some people are very bad with rejection, however nicely it’s done).
“So the fraying might have happened, anyway.”
What is it about him that you found out, that you didn’t like so much and you think might have caused it to fray anyway?
“I did have a married, male friend years ago who disclosed not limerence but interest and I’m glad he did. I thought we were buddies.”
What happened between you after he declared interest? Could you still be buddies after that (because you respected he’d been honest) or was it too weird?
[“And now you wish you never had?”]
“It’s hard for me to answer that. He may be the last LO I get my hands on… It is an experience and it’s very rare. Idk. Ask me in a few months.”
That’s fair, and I’ll leave it alone for now. When we are ‘mired’, the brain is full of conflicted thoughts and emotions. I found I could feel one thing one day, totally the opposite the next.
“You spend most of your time with your SO? You don’t hang out with friends?”
I do both things. But … I think I told you (ages ago) that I had brief glimmer for LO many years earlier, which had then died down well before I started up with SO. I guess though, after that I was always aware of a certain ‘danger level’ with LO, once I had an SO, that made me not want to cross lines. Until I did want to, that is.
[“Rarely. It was nearly all within work hours back then.”]
“I wouldn’t consider that a close friend.”
An honest assessment here is that in the months as the LE kicked off, both parties (and it definitely wasn’t just me) took steps to make the ‘friendship’ closer.
“Chances are, in both scenarios, if either of us left the job, the friendship would end.”
Coworkers are people we spend time with by circumstance at first, not that we choose to. I’ve had quite a lot of jobs, but don’t really have any friends left from my old ones (Though I have been in this one a long time now).
“But isn’t that what happened with you ? You had an SO and developed feelings for someone else?”
Well, yes …
[“What does lim-brain try to say? ”]
“Just that me shutting it down might have hurt him beyond just a pride thing.”
OK. It’s possible. But if you don’t want to go the road of asking him (and to do ask him would be a big decision to make, and leave yourself potentially very exposed), that’s going to be one of those to “work towards making peace with no closure” scenarios. And I *know* that doesn’t come overnight.
“I have never assumed a guy asking me out/showing interest meant his interest was at crush level.”
I used the word ‘crush’ without enough thought. I meant my brain is usually on one woman at a time. (I said ‘usually’ – I know there is an obvious comeback to that just waiting to be made!)
“But the first answer was the right one. 🙂”
You gave me a fairly broad hint on that before I even wrote anything 🙂
Joking aside, I’m not uncomfortable that I was forced to respond in any way, and I’m happy that everything I wrote was authentic.
LaR,
“Yep. How about those ones who ask you a question about you, and then answer it before you’ve had time … with *their* answer to it?!”
The worst is when you’ve talked about yourself and maybe it was kind of a long talk, an important topic, and when you’re done, they completely change the subject. They don’t even acknowledge anything you just said. Not even with a sentence or two.
“These guys’ response was basically “if you’re going to have an affair, get on and have one. If you’re not, don’t”. ”
I kind of agree with them. Sh*t or get off the pot. And if you don’t want to, that’s fine, but then leave me alone. That’s how I felt about my last big LO.
“To backtrack a bit, I guess it must be hard for anyone who hasn’t experienced limerence to try to relate to it.”
It is. I remember the comments from one. She was married and had once been attracted to a guy at work, maybe more than she ever had been to her husband … but so what? There was never any time I think she really struggled with it.
[“I was surprised with LO-lite. I suspected he might be at least somewhat interested, but I never expected him to say anything or that the interest was enough to say anything.”]
“I guess you never know until you try.”
I meant that I can try to read the signs and guess all day long, but I won’t really know until someone tells me. I’m not all that good at showing interest myself. Not with someone I really like. I’m much better at being flirtatious with someone I don’t like. No stakes.
“Yes, that was the wording I was looking for. I think the post was called ‘Closure is an illusion’, and he said you just have to close it with yourself, because you’ll never close it with the LO.”
It’s true. I’ve had official closure with only one LO in my entire life. Where I left our last meeting thinking : I’m over this now. Usually you don’t get a last meeting or you don’t leave it feeling done.
[“But when? Before or after the limerence?”]
“During the first 18 months of the limerence.”
So it was the limerence fueling it, it sounds like.
“Yes – the previous closeness feels like ‘faking’ / only a bridge (in his mind) to more.”
That’s exactly what it felt like.
” Alternative explanations are available (some people are very bad with rejection, however nicely it’s done).”
I’m not following you here. That he was bad with rejection and that’s why he’s kind of faded away ?
“What is it about him that you found out, that you didn’t like so much and you think might have caused it to fray anyway?”
There’s a lot of need for female validation. And I think he plays up the “are we or aren’t we” angle with other female friends. Likes keeping things ambiguous with them. Doesn’t press for more. Stays in the grey zone. (That’s a guess on my part, but you know how I feel about the gray zone.)
“What happened between you after he declared interest? Could you still be buddies after that (because you respected he’d been honest) or was it too weird?”
He blew up at me. The friendship imploded. Later, we were able to joke around and be friendly at work, but we had been hanging out with other co-workers after work and texting a bit. The friendship never got back there. And, no, I didn’t respect that he told me. Just wondered if that was his intention all along. This was a number of years ago. I may handle it differently today.
“That’s fair, and I’ll leave it alone for now. ”
I can talk about it. I just can’t give more definitive answers until I have some more distance from it.
” I guess though, after that I was always aware of a certain ‘danger level’ with LO, once I had an SO, that made me not want to cross lines. Until I did want to, that is.”
I know the feeling. Thought I was beyond limerence.
“Coworkers are people we spend time with by circumstance at first, not that we choose to. I’ve had quite a lot of jobs, but don’t really have any friends left from my old ones (Though I have been in this one a long time now).”
I have a couple of former co-workers who are still friends, but we’re not close. I’m just saying that I’ve had co-workers I did share quite a bit with, but we never hung out, and when one of us left the job, that was it. It was a situational friendship that gave a false sense of intimacy. You mentioned that she told you something really personal and that sparked the limerence. I’m just saying that I’ve had co-workers tell me really personal stuff … and we’re not friends now.
“OK. It’s possible. But if you don’t want to go the road of asking him (and to do ask him would be a big decision to make”
Shortly after things imploded, I made vague reference to it and he didn’t respond. I don’t know if there’s any point in asking. I also don’t think — if I’m being honest with myself — there’s any point in hanging out with him at all.
I do think he liked me as a person, aside from the physical stuff. But I don’t know if there was anything more there. On his side.
“I used the word ‘crush’ without enough thought. I meant my brain is usually on one woman at a time.”
Well, that’s how I am, but in retrospect, I think it’s a terrible way to date. There’s a lot that has to line up for it to work out — the other person has to be interested, they have to get off their butt and do something about it, things have to move into a relationship. And it also makes you get fixated on one person and puts a lot of pressure on things working out. And I wonder if the other person can feel that pressure, and if it’s off-putting.
“(I said ‘usually’ – I know there is an obvious comeback to that just waiting to be made!)”
Ha! You walked into that one … 🙂
“You gave me a fairly broad hint on that before I even wrote anything 🙂”
I don’t think anyone would accuse me of being subtle. 🙂
“Joking aside, I’m not uncomfortable that I was forced to respond in any way, and I’m happy that everything I wrote was authentic.”
When I wrote about the “your person” concept … it doesn’t have to be a romantic relationship. Can be a friendship. Can be a family member. Just someone you really click with. If you’re lucky, you have handful of those people in a lifetime. I hesitate to use the word soulmate, but I think there is something to the concept.
“They don’t even acknowledge anything you just said. Not even with a sentence or two.”
I’ve only got two groups I have any tolerance for that sort of behavior from. One is friends I’ve had since school. Yeah, in theory I could still ditch them, but there is some reason I’ve kept them around this long. The other is if I’m acquainted with them through SO. She has some friends who I find can be like that, but it’s her decision if she wants to keep them around.
“I kind of agree with them. Sh*t or get off the pot.”
I wondered if you might say that!
“She was married and had once been attracted to a guy at work, maybe more than she ever had been to her husband … but so what? There was never any time I think she really struggled with it.”
Maybe that’s why I couldn’t get through to my friends. The concept is inaccessible to non-lims.
One female friend also dragged a confession about my LE out of me. This friend knows both SO and LO a bit – she likes SO but can’t stand LO. The look she gave me was like death. I full on panicked for days wondering who else knew. But I’ve never been asked about it by anyone else accept in extreme jest.
“Not with someone I really like. I’m much better at being flirtatious with someone I don’t like. No stakes.”
I can level with that, apart from the fact I wouldn’t be motivated to bother if I didn’t like the person.
“I’m not following you here. That he was bad with rejection and that’s why he’s kind of faded away?”
Yep. As a possibility. But you were there, so your sense of what happened is likely the better explanation.
“Likes keeping things ambiguous with them. Doesn’t press for more. Stays in the grey zone.”
That doesn’t sound nice – a bit like dangling a toy on a string just out of a cat’s reach.
“He blew up at me.”
That’s very odd behaviour.
“Just wondered if that was his intention all along.”
Did he disclose to you with any intent or offer? Did he claim you led him on?? I can’t square why he blew up.
“I can talk about it. I just can’t give more definitive answers until I have some more distance from it.”
👍
“I know the feeling. Thought I was beyond limerence.”
3 years ago, I wouldn’t have been able to word the reasons why… but there was always something (a spark – even if in my head) that said ‘danger, hold back’ with LO. It didn’t apply with other (platonic) friends.
“It was a situational friendship that gave a false sense of intimacy.”
Mostly it is work that ‘binds’ co-workers. In only a very few cases do we get past it. It’s nice when we do. But if work was the bind, then when one of the people leaves work, the friendship doesn’t have a driver left.
“You mentioned that she told you something really personal and that sparked the limerence. I’m just saying that I’ve had co-workers tell me really personal stuff … and we’re not friends now.”
Yeah, maybe I have just been ‘right place, right time’ with that, who knows. My LE was triggered before a lot of those personal disclosures happened (it’s not pure ‘white knight’ like some on here). At first it was just by circumstance and her displaying what I felt was heightened interest and attention towards me at a time I was very receptive to it. But the personal disclosures later entrenched it more. It gave me the feeling of being special that I was trusted enough to be told it and ‘harbour’ it. I am just as much a sucker as the next man for that kind of validation.
“Shortly after things imploded, I made vague reference to it and he didn’t respond.”
See, that’s where you’d say to me that one person has ‘helped’ the other, and that the other person should sense the help and feel open to respond.
The next bit could turn into endless guesswork on my part, as I’m sure you know. But that he didn’t respond doesn’t mean he never liked you in the first place or invalidate what happened. I only have limited information but I suspect there is a line he won’t go over (EA) while with his SO. And maybe he over-corrected and backed up miles behind that line. I could be a long way off with this guess.
“I also don’t think — if I’m being honest with myself — there’s any point in hanging out with him at all.”
Is there a way if you want to, then?
“I do think he liked me as a person, aside from the physical stuff. But I don’t know if there was anything more there. On his side.”
I think I follow – you mean ‘like’ vs ‘Like’?
“Well, that’s how I am, but in retrospect, I think it’s a terrible way to date.”
But if it’s how we’re wired as a person, it is quite hard to override.
“And it also makes you get fixated on one person and puts a lot of pressure on things working out. And I wonder if the other person can feel that pressure, and if it’s off-putting.”
Most likely they can.
“When I wrote about the “your person” concept … it doesn’t have to be a romantic relationship. Can be a friendship. Can be a family member. Just someone you really click with.”
I’m greedy – I want a few of them around. Now, I know I can only have one of them as in for a relationship (and I also really know I can’t have LO as ‘my person’ because I already have SO as ‘that person’). I’m on about friends. In the past I have thrown all my eggs into one basket (a relationship) and then there’s not enough eggs left when the relationship ends. It also puts a lot of pressure on an SO if you don’t have any other of ‘your people’ around. I’ve also seen the ‘all eggs in one basket’ approach go devastatingly wrong for others close to me.
LaR,
“Yeah, in theory I could still ditch them, but there is some reason I’ve kept them around this long.”
Because you have a history?
“The other is if I’m acquainted with them through SO. She has some friends who I find can be like that, but it’s her decision if she wants to keep them around.”
I can understand that. Once I witness that someone is incapable of actual back-and-forth conversation (they rarely or never ask me anything, don’t spend any time listening), I kind of lose interest. Doesn’t mean I’m never going to speak to them again. I just don’t put effort into making them a friend.
[“I kind of agree with them. Sh*t or get off the pot.”]
“I wondered if you might say that!”
Did you expect anything less? 🙂 I don’t want every guy I talk to to push for more, but if I’m interested …
“Maybe that’s why I couldn’t get through to my friends. The concept is inaccessible to non-lims.”
No, she didn’t get it. But she was right in that I took what was essentially a work flirtation and turned it into a trauma-drama.
“One female friend also dragged a confession about my LE out of me. This friend knows both SO and LO a bit – she likes SO but can’t stand LO. ”
I think you mentioned this person before.
“The look she gave me was like death.”
Because you were limerent and she liked your SO or because she didn’t like your LO?
“I full on panicked for days wondering who else knew. But I’ve never been asked about it by anyone else accept in extreme jest.”
You mean, with any of these friends you told, they never mentioned your LE again? I did have one friend who flat-out ran me over with her car in giving me her opinion of the LE. There could have been a nicer way to tell me (she wasn’t necessarily wrong, but her tone was kind of … what’s wrong with you?), and I NEVER mentioned my LO again. She asked me about him a while later and I thought: Are you kidding me? Do you actually think I would ever talk about him again with you?
“I can level with that, apart from the fact I wouldn’t be motivated to bother if I didn’t like the person.”
I used to be extremely flirtatious. 98% of it was without intent.
“Yep. As a possibility. But you were there, so your sense of what happened is likely the better explanation.”
I don’t really know.
“That doesn’t sound nice – a bit like dangling a toy on a string just out of a cat’s reach.”
Now, to be fair, I don’t know how many of these women want more from him. I know one did, and his behavior can be confusing and possibly read that he’s interested. He’s extremely attentive (among other things), and the way he handled her (giving her the message he wasn’t interested romantically) … it was pure wussy. I lost some respect for him.
“Did he disclose to you with any intent or offer? Did he claim you led him on?? I can’t square why he blew up.”
I don’t remember all the details. I remember him yelling something about his appearance (as in: why didn’t I like it or accept it, I can’t remember exactly), and the conversation after that went badly. It ended the friendship. He must have suggested something before he yelled, but I don’t remember exactly what.
“3 years ago, I wouldn’t have been able to word the reasons why… but there was always something (a spark – even if in my head) that said ‘danger, hold back’ with LO. It didn’t apply with other (platonic) friends.”
Yep. 🙂 I don’t believe in close, opposite-sex friendships. And I wouldn’t be comfortable with a partner going out with another woman, one-on-one. That sounds like a date to me. Maybe … if it was a friend he’d had forever. Childhood friend or something. But a new female friend popping up out of nowhere. No can do. 🙂
” But if work was the bind, then when one of the people leaves work, the friendship doesn’t have a driver left.”
That’s true. I’m just saying that you can be close with people at work. And people sometimes misinterpret that for meaning more than it does.
“But the personal disclosures later entrenched it more. It gave me the feeling of being special that I was trusted enough to be told it and ‘harbour’ it. I am just as much a sucker as the next man for that kind of validation.”
I would interpret that as meaning something. Not necessarily romantic (although it could), but definitely that I was being chosen. Or trusted. I’m just saying I’ve experienced that at work. Lots of personal disclosure from work friends. And the friendships didn’t last when one of us left the job.
“See, that’s where you’d say to me that one person has ‘helped’ the other, and that the other person should sense the help and feel open to respond.”
I don’t understand what you mean.
“Is there a way if you want to, then?”
He’s not available. I just don’t think there’s a point.
“I think I follow – you mean ‘like’ vs ‘Like’?”
I don’t know what you mean. To me, “like,” lower-case l, means like as a friend. “Like,” upper-case L, means like as woman. I have no doubt he was into me as a woman and opened up about himself and was affectionate. But did he have feelings beyond that? What I described could be an fwb, because your side can do all of that in an fwb. One thing he said made me think he did not have more feelings. But his reaction when things imploded made me wonder.
“But if it’s how we’re wired as a person, it is quite hard to override.
It’s putting all of your eggs in one basket for someone you may have gone on one date with. Your best bet is to date around until things get serious with someone.
“Most likely they can.”
And that can be off-putting if their feelings aren’t on the same level.
“I’m on about friends. In the past I have thrown all my eggs into one basket (a relationship) and then there’s not enough eggs left when the relationship ends. ”
I think you can only have one main person at a time. The Universe doesn’t give us more than one. Sometimes you don’t even have one. When I met my last big LO, I had a best friend. She was my person. We communicated every day (usually by phone), hung out most weekends, she was like a sister. She knew all my “stuff,” my current stories, my past stories; I knew all hers. Yes, she knew about my LO. For most things he did, I called her. I had two other close friends at the time. We were close, but not as close.
Marcia,
“Did you expect anything less? I don’t want every guy I talk to to push for more, but if I’m interested …”
Sure – but if they’re not going to try, you don’t want them to hover either.
“But she was right in that I took what was essentially a work flirtation and turned it into a trauma-drama.”
Those dramas are real to us at the time. That’s maybe what I wanted to explore with my friends. But I was asking a lot/too much of them.
[“The look she gave me was like death.”]
“Because you were limerent and she liked your SO or because she didn’t like your LO?”
The look said ‘you are out of your tiny mind’. That, and worry for me.
“You mean, with any of these friends you told, they never mentioned your LE again?”
One of the men did. I meant – because one coworker sussed it out and wrung it out of me, I then wondered if others would do the same. But nobody did.
“I thought: Are you kidding me? Do you actually think I would ever talk about him again with you?”
That was like my experience with the female friend. I left the conversation in no doubt the matter was off the table between us forever. And that isn’t because she is loyal to my SO (she only knows her a little) – she just thought I was mad, and I wasn’t down with that. So it was like ‘agree never to mention again’.
“I used to be extremely flirtatious. 98% of it was without intent.”
So why, then? Just because it was fun?
“the way he handled her (giving her the message he wasn’t interested romantically) … it was pure wussy.”
What did he do (or not do), roughly?
“I remember him yelling something about his appearance (as in: why didn’t I like it or accept it, I can’t remember exactly), and the conversation after that went badly.”
From that, I reckon he believed or hoped you and him had mutual feelings, and this was when he realised it wasn’t the case. The scales fell off his eyes.
“That’s true. I’m just saying that you can be close with people at work. And people sometimes misinterpret that for meaning more than it does.”
See every LwL poster’s story ever!
“I would interpret that as meaning something. Not necessarily romantic (although it could), but definitely that I was being chosen. Or trusted”
100% it felt like that, and 95% it *was* that. And that in itself was and is validating. It didn’t tip my opinion about what she felt for me either way, because it’s very possible that just comfort in the friendship was the reason. But it mired me further in to the hope and uncertainty (fuel).
[[“Shortly after things imploded, I made vague reference to it and he didn’t respond”]]
[“See, that’s where you’d say to me that one person has ‘helped’ the other, and that the other person should sense the help and feel open to respond.”]
“I don’t understand what you mean.”
So by making vague reference to it, you have (imo) ‘helped’ him – given him the space to say or explain more. And yet he didn’t. This suggests he wasn’t willing or able to.
“I have no doubt he was into me as a woman and opened up about himself and was affectionate. But did he have feelings beyond that?”
What are the feelings (hypothetically speaking) that you are getting at here? Like a strong emotional connection?
“Your best bet is to date around until things get serious with someone.”
But I remember you telling me, when I gave the example of my ex-gf who I knew was doing that, that you might not have put up with that in my position.
[“I’m on about friends. In the past I have thrown all my eggs into one basket (a relationship) and then there’s not enough eggs left when the relationship ends.”]
“I think you can only have one main person at a time. The Universe doesn’t give us more than one.”
I’ll just have find myself some bro’s at that men’s grunting shed 🙂
“She knew all my “stuff,” my current stories, my past stories; I knew all hers.”
Have you two stayed the distance as friends?
Even if not, those things are nice while they last. There is something to be said for the idea of ‘some friends are for a reason, some for a season, some for a lifetime’.
LaR,
“Sure – but if they’re not going to try, you don’t want them to hover either.”
Depends on what you mean by hover. Chat and flirt and not take it seriously? I don’t have a problem with that. It doesn’t really happen now that I’m older.
“Those dramas are real to us at the time. ”
Yes, but once I got some distance from my last big LE, I couldn’t believe how much time, energy and angst I wasted on what was essentially nothing.
“That’s maybe what I wanted to explore with my friends. But I was asking a lot/too much of them.”
I don’t think it’s asking for too much. There are plenty of things people talk about that I can’t necessarily directly relate to. I can still attempt to listen and show compassion, when necessary (depending on our relationship).
“The look said ‘you are out of your tiny mind’. That, and worry for me.”
Well, yeah, that’s how that one friend talked to me. But at the end of the day, she was right. I was wasting my time. He was never going to do anything. But there just could have been a less harsh and condescending way to tell me.
“One of the men did. ”
Because he was concerned? If so, I think that’s kind of a nice thing. I only had the one friend bring it up again (minus the BFF) — the one I had NO intention of ever discussing it with after her previous reaction. (The other two never mentioned it again, and that kind of bothered me because it was a big deal to me at the time.)
“I meant – because one coworker sussed it out and wrung it out of me, I then wondered if others would do the same. But nobody did.”
What do you mean, “sussed it out of you”? They could tell you had feelings/were limerent?
“That was like my experience with the female friend. I left the conversation in no doubt the matter was off the table between us forever. ”
I didn’t do that. I just dodged her subsequent questions about him. There was NO WAY I was going to give her the satisfaction in learning she was right.
“She just thought I was mad, and I wasn’t down with that. So it was like ‘agree never to mention again’.”
The tone my friend used was borderline: Are you an idiot? Was your friend like that?
“So why, then? Just because it was fun?”
Yes. I was popular for a while. With your side. First time in my life. Most of the guys were married and also saw it as fun. Most flirtation means nothing. But there were two I can think of off the top of my head who took it more seriously than they should have.
“What did he do (or not do), roughly?”
Slow fade instead of being clear. Would have been so easy to, for example, send some b.s. text about starting to date someone. So that she knew there was no chance. If I remember correctly, she lived in his hometown, which was several hours away. She wouldn’t have known if that was true or not. Was it that he liked the attention?
“From that, I reckon he believed or hoped you and him had mutual feelings, and this was when he realised it wasn’t the case. The scales fell off his eyes.”
He didn’t have to blow up at me. That was uncalled for. And he was married. There was never any discussion of anything beyond friendship until he said that.
“See every LwL poster’s story ever!”
True. 🙂
“It didn’t tip my opinion about what she felt for me either way, because it’s very possible that just comfort in the friendship was the reason. But it mired me further in to the hope and uncertainty (fuel).”
I can see that. I don’t know how it is for you, but people have a tendency to tell me a lot of personal stuff. I’m not sure why. So I’ve started to take personal disclosures with a grain of salt.
“So by making vague reference to it, you have (imo) ‘helped’ him – given him the space to say or explain more. And yet he didn’t. This suggests he wasn’t willing or able to.”
Oh, no. He did the worst thing he could do: He ignored me.
“What are the feelings (hypothetically speaking) that you are getting at here? Like a strong emotional connection?”
Romantic feelings. Beyond “I like you as a friend and I want to do you.”
“But I remember you telling me, when I gave the example of my ex-gf who I knew was doing that, that you might not have put up with that in my position.”
It depends on where you are in the dating process. I’m sorry in that I don’t remember the exact details of what you are referring to. This is the one where some other dude was hovering around her, right ? IMO (and this is just my opinion) … the first and second dates are a trial and error period. This one dating coach I follow: He doesn’t even call them “dates” until you get to the 3rd actual “outing.” So you should be dating around in that early period. The flip side of that is deciding you like someone, fixating on them before you have any real information (do they even like you?), entertaining no other options, finally going out with them on that first date, and then waiting by the phone. Depending on how long it’s taken to get on that first date, you could have wasted time. Because what if things never go anywhere?
“I’ll just have find myself some bro’s at that men’s grunting shed 🙂”
You need some bros. 🙂 Have you ever seen the movie “I Love You, Man”? Paul Rudd is about to marry Rashida Jones and he has no male friends to ask to be his best man. He’s always been a “girlfriend guy.” He goes out to try to find one. And he says he knew Jones was the one because she wanted him to have friends. No other previous girlfriend had.
“Have you two stayed the distance as friends?”
I think you know the answer to that. 🙂 We’re still friends but it’s totally different.
“Even if not, those things are nice while they last. There is something to be said for the idea of ‘some friends are for a reason, some for a season, some for a lifetime’.”
I disagree. I would never put that much effort into a friendship again. That’s the paradox. Yes, you need friends but adult friendship is … yeah
Marcia,
“once I got some distance from my last big LE, I couldn’t believe how much time, energy and angst I wasted on what was essentially nothing.”
I suspect I’ll end up feeling like it eventually too, but it will suck if it was all ‘nothing’.
“But at the end of the day, she was right. I was wasting my time. He was never going to do anything. But there just could have been a less harsh and condescending way to tell me.”
I think that’s it. Maybe my friend was accurate too, but friends need say it with care, as the person is clearly going through something. Hardly anyone accepts information (even ‘truth’) if they are beaten over the head with it.
[“One of the men did.”]
“Because he was concerned? If so, I think that’s kind of a nice thing.”
It was a question along lines of ‘have you decided which way you’re going yet? (ie if I’d chosen between SO and LO). This despite me telling him the first time that I wasn’t going to have a PA. It was his way of showing he’d remembered and cared, though. I was Ok with that.
“What do you mean, “sussed it out of you”? They could tell you had feelings/were limerent?”
Detected feelings. She said she thought the feelings were mutual, but stronger on LO’s side than mine. My friend thought I was being manipulated / dragged into it. It wasn’t true and I told her so. I said I was fully complicit. My friend had trouble believing me.
I think one other person at work has figured it out but is discrete / clever enough not to ask or meddle.
“I just dodged her subsequent questions about him. There was NO WAY I was going to give her the satisfaction”
I don’t blame you a bit. Similar to my friend – she wanted (still does, I think) it to implode between LO and I, so she could be proved right.
“The tone my friend used was borderline: Are you an idiot? Was your friend like that?”
Yes, exact same.
“Most flirtation means nothing.”
I’ll take your word for it in your experience, but I have trouble wrapping my head around it. How do you tell when it does mean something, if 98% of it means nothing?
“Was it that he liked the attention?”
Depends on whether she was clear about her interest. If both were dancing around it, it’s sort of fair game. If she was clear and he then messed her about, then it is unkind and suggests he just likes ‘orbiters’ for the attention and validation.
“He didn’t have to blow up at me.”
The fact he did is on him – he has issues.
“I don’t know how it is for you, but people have a tendency to tell me a lot of personal stuff. I’m not sure why. So I’ve started to take personal disclosures with a grain of salt.”
Yes, it happens to me too. I am careful with who I open that door to, as I only have so much brain space for it. If by the ‘grain of salt’ bit, you mean we shouldn’t assume a personal disclosure happens because they think we’re their BFF, then I’d agree.
“He did the worst thing he could do: He ignored me.”
Not nice – he should have owned it, either way.
“Romantic feelings. Beyond “I like you as a friend and I want to do you.””
Gotcha. You often say partnered men are more likely to have a PA than admit those sort of (EA) feelings. There could be an element of that going on.
“I’m sorry in that I don’t remember the exact details of what you are referring to.”
She hooked up with someone else after we’d had the first couple of dates, then circled back to me. I only found it out quite a while later. I put this in just to remind you, but I don’t have a need to talk about her more.
“Depending on how long it’s taken to get on that first date, you could have wasted time. Because what if things never go anywhere?”
This (the advice of the dating coach) presupposes that we have an orderly line of people waiting to date us!
“And he says he knew Jones was the one because she wanted him to have friends. No other previous girlfriend had.”
Female friends? Sounds ideal 😀 (I jest)
“We’re still friends but it’s totally different.”
Educated guess – did she have kids? I’ve found, as has my SO – from experience – that always changes friendships. But more with some than others. I know notable exceptions that try to keep other bits of their life going as much as they can even after kids.
“I disagree. I would never put that much effort into a friendship again. That’s the paradox. Yes, you need friends but adult friendship is … yeah”
Yeah, the bar lowers. I’d say it’s better to have low expectations to begin with, and let it grow slowly if both want it to, than invest too much too soon
LaR,
“I suspect I’ll end up feeling like it eventually too, but it will suck if it was all ‘nothing’.”
I’m not following you. What else could it be but nothing?
“I think that’s it. Maybe my friend was accurate too, but friends need say it with care, as the person is clearly going through something. Hardly anyone accepts information (even ‘truth’) if they are beaten over the head with it.”
I don’t mind someone telling me something that I need to hear (and, tbh, a good friend who knows you well will gently call you on your crap), but talking to me like I’m an idiot and being condescending … I don’t like that. I think what really bugged me about this friend was that a lot of the dumb sh*t I’d done with men in the past (not just limerence), they’d done, too. But instead of acknowledging it, they’d just rewritten their history.
“It was a question along lines of ‘have you decided which way you’re going yet? (ie if I’d chosen between SO and LO). This despite me telling him the first time that I wasn’t going to have a PA.”
But was that an option? It wasn’t an option with my last big LO — a PA. There was never really a “fork in the road” decision to make. It was never: have a PA or leave this guy alone. It was: get it through your thick head that nothing is going to happen.
” It was his way of showing he’d remembered and cared, though. I was Ok with that.
That would mean something to me. That he brought it up again. I assume it did to you.
” My friend thought I was being manipulated / dragged into it. ”
I have to be honest: I don’t like that narrative. No one drags another person into it. It kind of implies women have some kind of evil, magic sorcery and the man has no agency.
“I don’t blame you a bit. Similar to my friend – she wanted (still does, I think) it to implode between LO and I, so she could be proved right.”
What do you mean, implode? The friendship ends?
My friend just wanted to be right that nothing would ever happen with my LO. But nothing ever happened between me and my big LO that “imploded.” If I ran into tomorrow, I could be pleasant. I just finally accepted I was wasting my time and walked.
“How do you tell when it does mean something, if 98% of it means nothing?”
Someone makes a move.
“Depends on whether she was clear about her interest. If both were dancing around it, it’s sort of fair game. ”
He knew he wasn’t interested. I don’t know all of the details, but from what he told me, it sounded like she thought they were more than friends. Or she was showing she had more interest than friendship. He should have cleared that up with her. Asap.
“Yes, it happens to me too. I am careful with who I open that door to, as I only have so much brain space for it.”
It depends on the situation. I will say that I do like to hear stories. Someone, somewhat recently, completely by chance, told me a story that was similar to my LO-lite experience. It was strange to stumble upon hearing it with what is a new friend.
” If by the ‘grain of salt’ bit, you mean we shouldn’t assume a personal disclosure happens because they think we’re their BFF, then I’d agree.”
Yes. And some people are personal disclosure hos. They’ll tell anybody. 🙂
“Not nice – he should have owned it, either way.”
Which led me to believe he was at least ticked at me, so I hit some kind of nerve. But who knows.
“You often say partnered men are more likely to have a PA than admit those sort of (EA) feelings. There could be an element of that going on.”
I was always referring to men in general. I don’t have a specific category in my mind of what partnered men are looking for. There’s a reason the word “situationship” has become part of the vernacular. Even guys who eventually want to get married … in the meantime, they aren’t going to forgo female companionship.
“This (the advice of the dating coach) presupposes that we have an orderly line of people waiting to date us!”
You usually do if you’re on the sites. You’re at least messaging/talking to other people. To narrow down and focus on one person if you don’t even know if things will go anywhere is a recipe for fixating on them.
“Educated guess – did she have kids? ”
No. But friendships don’t stay the same. It’s just a matter of time.
“I’ve found, as has my SO – from experience – that always changes friendships. ”
There was an interesting article/column I read online called “The Last Supper” by a woman who was spending time with/having dinner with her friend, who was pregnant and very close to giving birth. The pregnant friend said that things wouldn’t change much between them once the baby was born. And the writer thought to herself: Things will completely change.
“Yeah, the bar lowers. I’d say it’s better to have low expectations to begin with, and let it grow slowly if both want it to, than invest too much too soon”
I’d keep expectations low all the time.
Marcia,
You’ll be pleased to know I spent yesterday evening putting the world to rights with a ‘bro’.
“I’m not following you. What else could it be but nothing?”
It’s nothing if you look at it in the sense of a sexual relationship. But in all other respects, it is (or at least seems) a well-functioning and strong friendship, so I don’t regard it as nothing. Some limerents on this site have a relationship with their LO that happens mostly in their head – hardly any real interaction. In my case, the limerence is in my head, but there is a relationship still there with the person.
“But instead of acknowledging it, they’d just rewritten their history.”
It’s annoying when people do that and try to sound virtuous. ‘Hey, look at me all grown up now!’.
“But was that an option? It wasn’t an option with my last big LO — a PA. There was never really a “fork in the road” decision to make.”
I don’t know because for so many reasons, I have never tried to find out. How did you know it wasn’t an option with last big LO – did you ask, or did you just intuit it?
“That would mean something to me. That he brought it up again. I assume it did to you.”
Yes it did. Part of me dreaded it because me and him (a non lim, I am pretty sure) just don’t have a shared frame of reference to discuss it through. But the fact he cared about it/me enough to ask said a lot for him.
“No one drags another person into it. It kind of implies women have some kind of evil, magic sorcery and the man has no agency.”
I don’t like it either. Nobody else can dictate how I feel – I have to own it.
“What do you mean, implode? The friendship ends?”
Yes. To be frank, she’d like it if LO was no longer ‘my person’ at work. I asked her to drop saying negative things about LO to me, and being borderline rude to LO when she bumped into her. I told her that if she forced me to choose (which she was threatening at one stage), then she would not like the outcome. That might sound harsh but it was just the truth, and it did make her drop the subject, meaning we could then function as friends again.
“I just finally accepted I was wasting my time and walked.”
Could you go NC when you made that decision, or was he still in your orbit?
[“How do you tell when it does mean something, if 98% of it means nothing?”]
“Someone makes a move.”
Of course 😀
“Someone, somewhat recently, completely by chance, told me a story that was similar to my LO-lite experience. It was strange to stumble upon hearing it with what is a new friend.”
That must have been quite cathartic.
“Yes. And some people are personal disclosure hos. They’ll tell anybody.”
I laughed at that 🙂
“Which led me to believe he was at least ticked at me, so I hit some kind of nerve. But who knows.”
For what it’s worth I think he owed / owes you better than ghosting.
“I was always referring to men in general. I don’t have a specific category in my mind of what partnered men are looking for.”
I was originally talking (linked to LO-lite) about whether men are more likely to enter a PA or an EA – to ‘step over lines’. If the guy isn’t partnered then there are no lines / it isn’t an ‘affair’?
[“This presupposes that we have an orderly line of people waiting to date us!”]
“You usually do if you’re on the sites. You’re at least messaging/talking to other people.”
Sounds exhausting 🙂
I’ve read something that said the ways the sites have evolved (swipe right or left depending on the picture) concentrates about 80% of the activity on 20% of the people. The remaining 80% don’t get much luck.
“But friendships don’t stay the same. It’s just a matter of time.”
I’d say there is usually some trigger for a change. Or drift happens slowly if one of the friends moves away.
“The pregnant friend said that things wouldn’t change much between them once the baby was born. And the writer thought to herself: Things will completely change.”
It’s situational isn’t it. What SO has found here with friends who had children was that initially the mother hung around with other mothers of similar-age kids, but then circled back to longer term friends once the kids got a bit older.
LaR,
“You’ll be pleased to know I spent yesterday evening putting the world to rights with a ‘bro’.”
What did you do with said bro? You have to do a “bro” activity. Like bowling. 🙂
“It’s nothing if you look at it in the sense of a sexual relationship. But in all other respects, it is (or at least seems) a well-functioning and strong friendship, so I don’t regard it as nothing. ”
But couldn’t you have done that without the limerence? Limerence is sexual and romantic. It’s a pair-bonding drive. As a general rule.
“In my case, the limerence is in my head, but there is a relationship still there with the person.”
Yes, but if I’m limerent for someone, I’m going to want more than friendship. And I think you partnereds forget that. Because you’ve ruled out anything more than “friendship.” (Yes, I’m putting that in quotes. 🙂 ) If you think your LO was interested, what makes you think friendship was enough? That’s a general question. For limerents in general.
“It’s annoying when people do that and try to sound virtuous. ‘Hey, look at me all grown up now!’.”
It’s not even that. It’s “when I dumped Mark.” (Fake name). What really happened was … Mark put her in position with such bad behavior over time she had to dump him. Now she’s rewriting her history as if she was the one who had all the power.
“How did you know it wasn’t an option with last big LO – did you ask, or did you just intuit it?”
What do you think? 🙂
“Yes it did. Part of me dreaded it because me and him (a non lim, I am pretty sure) just don’t have a shared frame of reference to discuss it through. But the fact he cared about it/me enough to ask said a lot for him.”
And that fact that he asked would have earned him major points in my book if he was my friend. Even if he kind of blundered through it … he was still making the effort.
I think this idea that people are limerents or non-limerents can be tricky. My sample size is small, but I can think of two former guy friends (in their 50s) who were still thinking about a woman they were with decades earlier (and were both married to other women). I don’t think that’s uncommon. Because men don’t process relationships as well as women. That’s not me being critical. You can read the literature. Were these guys limerents? Idk. I didn’t know the concept at the time and it’s been years since I talked to them. But I also remember hearing a similar story from guys I dated when I was in my 20s (they were my age). They had a ” true love who got away” story (or something similar). I can think of at least two guys like that.
“Yes. To be frank, she’d like it if LO was no longer ‘my person’ at work.”
I think maybe I wasn’t clear about the “my person” concept. At least how I define it. You may not use all of your fingers on both hands to count them up at the end of your life. And that includes family members, friends and romantic partners. Can one of “your people” be a friend as you get older? Yes, but it’s rare. It’s probably more likely when you’re younger. I haven’t had one in years who was a friend. You have to spend a lot of time together to really get to know each other and have an important place in each others’ lives.
“I told her that if she forced me to choose (which she was threatening at one stage), then she would not like the outcome. ”
I remember you mentioning this person. Did she actually come out and say you had to choose? I can’t imagine saying that to a friend. It sounds really possessive. Now, I can be kind of possessive/jealous. I’ll admit that. 🙂 But I wouldn’t SAY it out loud.
“Could you go NC when you made that decision, or was he still in your orbit?”
Sorry. I wasn’t clear. “Walking” meant going NC. Leaving the job.
[“How do you tell when it does mean something, if 98% of it means nothing?”]
[“Someone makes a move.”]
“Of course 😀”
There’s really no other way to know, is there? Because like personal disclosure hos, there are flirtation hos. 🙂 It’s true.
[“Someone, somewhat recently, completely by chance, told me a story that was similar to my LO-lite experience. It was strange to stumble upon hearing it with what is a new friend.”]
“That must have been quite cathartic.”
Honestly, not really. I didn’t mind hearing it, and I was surprised by the similarities (the feeling she talked about and the hurt). I didn’t share my story. You thought I did, didn’t you? 🙂
[“Yes. And some people are personal disclosure hos. They’ll tell anybody.”]
“I laughed at that 🙂”
I’ve learned to be careful with people like that in terms of what I tell them about myself. I don’t trust they won’t have loose lips if they had them with their own stuff.
“For what it’s worth I think he owed / owes you better than ghosting.”
I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say he ghosted me. Ghosting, to me, implies there’s no ending and you don’t know what happened. The person just disappears. I had put the kibosh on things continuing. But not responding was cruel. And intentional.
“I was originally talking (linked to LO-lite) about whether men are more likely to enter a PA or an EA – to ‘step over lines’. ”
I couldn’t tell you. Honestly. No sarcasm, but I haven’t done a study. 🙂 Of the male posters on here, I’d say it’s an EA. (I also think, too, that even if you have a friendship, it may not veer into being an EA. An EA, to me, implies closeness in terms of knowing each other well, regularity of communication and dependence on each other.)
“If the guy isn’t partnered then there are no lines / it isn’t an ‘affair’?”
No, but I was talking about your side’s ability to do casual. In general. Not just a partnered person.
“Sounds exhausting 🙂”
It’s been a while since I’ve been on them, but, yes, it is.
“I’ve read something that said the ways the sites have evolved (swipe right or left depending on the picture) concentrates about 80% of the activity on 20% of the people. The remaining 80% don’t get much luck.”
That’s the stat for men, actually, based on a study done by the dating site OkCupid. How women rated men. I’m not a statistician, and that seems a bit skewed to me. So I take those stats with a grain of salt. But I think if you’re a woman, you’re probably getting some attention. From what I understand.
“I’d say there is usually some trigger for a change. Or drift happens slowly if one of the friends moves away.”
I’d say any major life change in either person’s life … will either change the friendship (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot) or end it. So that kind of does beg the question: Why bother?
“It’s situational isn’t it. What SO has found here with friends who had children was that initially the mother hung around with other mothers of similar-age kids, but then circled back to longer term friends once the kids got a bit older.”
But if you were close to this friend (someone you relied on), are you supposed to put that on hold for five or ten years? Which is why I wrote: Don’t have expectations.
Marcia,
“What did you do with said bro? You have to do a “bro” activity. Like bowling.”
I’m partial to a bit of bowling actually. But no, we sat in a pub, drank ale and there was sport on the TV. ‘Bro’ enough?
“But couldn’t you have done that without the limerence?”
Yes, and I really wish that was how it had turned out. We were fine as we were. Now, I’m not going to try and push the “I didn’t know what was I was doing” line … but we don’t choose who we get limerent for.
“If you think your LO was interested, what makes you think friendship was enough?”
It’s a good point. If she was interested then it wouldn’t have been enough. It was more my friend thinking LO was interested in me, than me thinking it. Anyone who is interested has the option to ratchet it themselves – to ‘test things out’. Now, I understand why my LO would not have done that in the circumstances – I’m talking generally there.
“Now she’s rewriting her history as if she was the one who had all the power.”
People tend to do that. It’s like we have to find a way of moving on, so we concoct a revised version that we can live with more easily.
[“did you ask, or did you just intuit it?”]
“What do you think?”
I wasn’t sure, as you’ve said before that you prefer the man to make the move – so I my guess would have been that you’d signal interest, but not force the issue.
“I can think of two former guy friends (in their 50s) who were still thinking about a woman they were with decades earlier (and were both married to other women).”
I obviously don’t know the circumstances, but I think there is a big difference depending on whether they’re thinking about those women in a nostalgic, wistful way, or actively thinking “I wish I was with her, not my wife”.
“I think maybe I wasn’t clear about the “my person” concept. At least how I define it. You may not use all of your fingers on both hands to count them up at the end of your life.”
I understand how you are defining it and agree with what you’re saying. My use of the term was loose there … but I was quoting the wording of that friend who challenged the situation – she said to me “at work, LO is your person”.
“Did she actually come out and say you had to choose?”
Not in as many words, but did enough that I said “don’t make me choose”. And when I said it, she didn’t deny it. She’d do things like send me endless texts dissing LO and saying she didn’t understand why I’d want to be friends with her. Or turn up somewhere she knew we’d both be, and start conversations with me / try and isolate her out of the conversation. I never let her succeed, and the more I dug in, the more awkward she made things until I gave the ultimatum. After that, she stopped dead and has never mentioned it since.
“Sorry. I wasn’t clear. “Walking” meant going NC. Leaving the job.”
Wow, that was a strong statement of purpose (depending how much you wanted to leave that job anyway).
“I didn’t share my story. You thought I did, didn’t you?”
Initially I was surprised. But when I think about it – why would you feel obliged / encouraged to share the story with her? Depends on how you feel about the friendship and whether there is trust.
“I don’t trust they won’t have loose lips if they had them with their own stuff.”
Loose lips sink ships 🙂
“I had put the kibosh on things continuing. But not responding was cruel. And intentional.”
Do you think your kibosh was clear and unambiguous – in terms of the reasons? I’m wondering if he could have interpreted it differently than you intended. (Probably not, but thought I’d ask).
“An EA, to me, implies closeness in terms of knowing each other well, regularity of communication and dependence on each other.”
Part of me thinks the label EA can only be used if both parties are clued in and complicit. Not for example if it happens mainly in a person’s head.
“No, but I was talking about your side’s ability to do casual. In general.”
You mean in terms of physical, emotional or both?
“But I think if you’re a woman, you’re probably getting some attention. From what I understand.”
Yes, what I saw (the stats) was talking about men, but I didn’t make that clear.
“I’d say any major life change in either person’s life … will either change the friendship (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot) or end it. So that kind of does beg the question: Why bother?”
I guess we want people around us (humans are sociable creatures), so it is about how to keep it at a level of investment around “this is nice now, for what it is” rather than over-invest and be disappointed later.
“But if you were close to this friend (someone you relied on), are you supposed to put that on hold for five or ten years?”
None of the friends in question dropped SO totally after kids, just became a bit more distant for a spell. I know she’s been disappointed in it at times. But also these friends are ones she goes back a long way with, so maybe that’s helped.
LaR,
“But no, we sat in a pub, drank ale and there was sport on the TV. ‘Bro’ enough?”
What sport was on the TV? That will make or break the bro-ness. 🙂
“Anyone who is interested has the option to ratchet it themselves – to ‘test things out’. ”
I agree, but in terms of whether I’m willing to do the ratchet, the man has to make it clear he’s opening the door.
“It’s like we have to find a way of moving on, so we concoct a revised version that we can live with more easily.”
I guess I’m the opposite. I probably look at past situations in the harshest light.
“I wasn’t sure, as you’ve said before that you prefer the man to make the move – so I my guess would have been that you’d signal interest, but not force the issue.”
What are we talking about here? Getting a number and asking out? Yes, I prefer the man to do that. But in terms of making the first physical move, it’s all based on context. A little bit happened with my last big LO, and I kicked things off. A lot of times it can be mutual.
“I obviously don’t know the circumstances, but I think there is a big difference depending on whether they’re thinking about those women in a nostalgic, wistful way, or actively thinking “I wish I was with her, not my wife”.”
Idk. You think he would be actively having conversations (several) about a woman he was with 30 years ago? You don’t think that signals he’s not over her? That it’s more than nostalgia? He doesn’t want to reunite but he seems to be still kind of fixated. Idk. (The other older guy literally said she was the only woman he’d loved.)
“She’d do things like send me endless texts dissing LO and saying she didn’t understand why I’d want to be friends with her. Or turn up somewhere she knew we’d both be, and start conversations with me / try and isolate her out of the conversation. ”
Wow. That’s a LOT. I don’t think I could maintain a friendship with her after that. Was this woman interested in you?
“Wow, that was a strong statement of purpose (depending how much you wanted to leave that job anyway).”
I was done with the whole thing. Finally !
“Initially I was surprised. But when I think about it – why would you feel obliged / encouraged to share the story with her? Depends on how you feel about the friendship and whether there is trust.”
I didn’t know her well, but is there a point in going over all the details? It’s not going to change anything.
“Do you think your kibosh was clear and unambiguous – in terms of the reasons?”
Yes
“Part of me thinks the label EA can only be used if both parties are clued in and complicit. Not for example if it happens mainly in a person’s head.”
I agree. Now one or both might deny it’s an actual EA, but there has to be a mutual understanding of something happening.
“You mean in terms of physical, emotional or both?”
I’m not sure what we’re talking about here. I’m talking about casual sex. That could also include some kind of friendship but no deeper romantic feelings.
“I guess we want people around us (humans are sociable creatures), so it is about how to keep it at a level of investment around “this is nice now, for what it is” ”
If you want casual friendships.
“None of the friends in question dropped SO totally after kids, just became a bit more distant for a spell.”
People only have so much time and emotional bandwith. When there’s a life change, that time and bandwith is usually cut from friendships as opposed to other relationships. It’s just the way it is.
” I know she’s been disappointed in it at times. But also these friends are ones she goes back a long way with, so maybe that’s helped.”
They have a history. Harder to do that with new friends who you go to coffee with 3 times a year. Not enough of a foundation to adjust expectations.
“What sport was on the TV? That will make or break the bro-ness.”
Winter Olympics. Ice Hockey and skiing. So I fear I have just shattered the bro-ness.
“I guess I’m the opposite. I probably look at past situations in the harshest light.”
I’d rather ‘harsh but realistic’ than sugar-coated. But it’s about directing the harshness. Sometimes we have to be honest and be harsh on ourselves. At other times it’s on other people. I used to turn too much of the harshness onto myself. Now I try to only do that with the parts where I deserve it.
[“my guess would have been that you’d signal interest, but not force the issue.”]
“What are we talking about here?”
It was about how you figured out it was futile with your last big LO. I think you’ve answered it.
“You don’t think that signals he’s not over her? That it’s more than nostalgia? He doesn’t want to reunite but he seems to be still kind of fixated”.
Sounds like another of those ‘one who got away’ (in his mind). I’ve read a couple of stories on here of men who felt the need to get back in contact with an LO of 20 or 30 years ago. Or they find another LO who reminds them of the old LO. That seems extreme to me. I mean, I have a big LO from that long ago that I’ve told you all about. But I wouldn’t dream of reaching out to her. I mean where would I even start if I did?!
“Wow. That’s a LOT. I don’t think I could maintain a friendship with her after that. Was this woman interested in you?”
I don’t believe so. I’ve known her 15 years and there has never been any sign of that. I think she thought I needed sort of protecting from LO (I didn’t). She and LO are polar opposites. She is VERY introvert, LO is pretty extrovert. Strong introverts often can’t cope with extroverts. I’m more of a slight introvert, and I find that a degree of extraversion in another person is good – it draws me out of myself. Though it can go too far – some strong extroverts just annoy me. For my friend, LO’s extraversion is overpowering, and she can’t understand that I didn’t and don’t feel the same.
“I didn’t know her well, but is there a point in going over all the details? It’s not going to change anything.”
I guess. You have to do what feels right for you. Sometimes I find getting another person’s opinion helps me figure out the knotty bits I can’t work out for myself. At other times I seek opinions and then wish I hadn’t bothered / end up more confused and irritated.
“I’m not sure what we’re talking about here. I’m talking about casual sex. That could also include some kind of friendship but no deeper romantic feelings.”
You’ve answered it. It was about your opinion on lines men will or won’t (generally) cross.
[“I guess we want people around us (humans are sociable creatures), so it is about how to keep it at a level of investment around “this is nice now, for what it is”]
“If you want casual friendships.”
I’d rather have a few good ones than loads of casual ones. Like you say though, they can take a lot of effort to start and maintain.
“They have a history. Harder to do that with new friends who you go to coffee with 3 times a year. Not enough of a foundation to adjust expectations.”
I’d agree. I don’t often get to the 3 coffees a year stage unless we’ve had more of a friendship first.
LaR,
“Winter Olympics. Ice Hockey and skiing. So I fear I have just shattered the bro-ness.”
I think those sports are ok. The real test: How much did you talk and about what? Acceptable conversation:
You: Good beer?
Friend, nodding: Good beer.
And lots of silence whilst looking at the sports monitors. 🙂
“I used to turn too much of the harshness onto myself. Now I try to only do that with the parts where I deserve it.”
I don’t mean that you blame yourself for all of it so much as you (universal “you”) don’t rewrite the history to say, for example, it was some big love affair when really it was an fwb. And maybe you put up with it way too long. That’s the kind of honesty I mean.
“It was about how you figured out it was futile with your last big LO. I think you’ve answered it.”
Yes, he knew an offer was on the table.
The other thing we haven’t talked about: standards in terms of how much much chasing you’ll let yourself do. With LO-lite, I was fairly proactive. I matched his efforts, but I did much more than with the guy I went out with a couple of times. With him I was more reactive to what he was doing. What’s the difference? Level of interest.
“I have a big LO from that long ago that I’ve told you all about. But I wouldn’t dream of reaching out to her. I mean where would I even start if I did?!”
I feel the same way. My college LO (an fwb) was very important to me at the time. But why would I contact him now? What would I even say?
” I’m more of a slight introvert, and I find that a degree of extraversion in another person is good – it draws me out of myself. ”
I’m the same way. I like someone who has a certain level of extroversion.
“Though it can go too far – some strong extroverts just annoy me. ”
I agree. Sometimes it’s their need for stimulation/people/entertaining that can feel draining to an introvert.
“For my friend, LO’s extraversion is overpowering, and she can’t understand that I didn’t and don’t feel the same.”
Her behavior toward your LO was quite rude. Like … childish-level rude.
“I guess. You have to do what feels right for you. Sometimes I find getting another person’s opinion helps me figure out the knotty bits I can’t work out for myself. ”
I have. I’ve gone over them with you. Just within the last week or so … I see the ending more clearly now. It’s been a lot of fun. Sarcasm implied, though I do appreciate the help.
“At other times I seek opinions and then wish I hadn’t bothered / end up more confused and irritated.”
I totally understand that. As in: Why did I even ask?
” It was about your opinion on lines men will or won’t (generally) cross.”
I’m speaking VERY broadly here … IMO, there are four types of partnered men. The ones who don’t really notice other women and never flirt (small percentage, but they exist); ones who are a little flirty/big brotherish but you both know you’re having a little bit of cheeky fun, they may talk about their spouse quite a bit, they have no intention of ever doing anything and don’t want to; the men who go right up to, straddle or go slightly over the line, very flirty, touchy/feely, may rarely or never mention their spouse (my last big LO), may be willing to engage in a lot of texting/sexting, perhaps have an EA but when push comes to shove won’t have a PA; those who will have a PA. But in the last category … what their motivation is … Sex? Validation? Escape? Excitement? Probably. But I would say some have to have some genuine feelings for their affair partner.
“I’d rather have a few good ones than loads of casual ones. Like you say though, they can take a lot of effort to start and maintain.”
Both parties have to be willing to and want to navigate the friendship’s changes as “life happens” and still put in some kind of effort. Is it impossible? No. Is it difficult? Yes. They’ve done studies. Whoever your close friends are now … something like 50 or 70 percent won’t be close friends seven years from now.
Marcia,
“Acceptable conversation:
You: Good beer? Friend, nodding: Good beer.
And lots of silence whilst looking at the sports monitors.”
Now do you think that’s likely? You’ve seen the length of sentences I churn out 🙂
He’s a good friend and we talk about all sorts (although with an amusing backstory). And he has a LOT going on at the moment … so I didn’t get too much time to watch the sport.
With my longest term male friend (since school) I can go and watch football* and talk about nothing but the match (*that’s ‘soccer’ to those of you across the pond who decided to use the word ‘FOOTball’ for a game played with the hands 😄).
“don’t rewrite the history to say, for example, it was some big love affair when really it was an fwb.”
Yeah, what is the point in someone deluding themselves like that?
“The other thing we haven’t talked about: standards in terms of how much much chasing you’ll let yourself do.”
I’ve said before but I was late getting over shyness, to reach a ‘useful’ level of chasing.
The way I handled the beginnings with SO was the only time I’ve chased in a way I was pleased with. Prior to that I usually needed women to make it VERY blatant. I missed several opportunities and took some less good opportunities. I’m not trying to navel-gaze about this – it’s just what happened.
And yes, that’s probably a big part of why my last two LEs have occurred – cos’ on some level, even though I cant, I want to do the chasing that younger me never did. (I DO, though, recognise how it isn’t fair to chase without follow through).
“I feel the same way. My college LO (an fwb) was very important to me at the time. But why would I contact him now? What would I even say?”
If I (purely hypothetically) did go back to that old LO of mine, I’d probably say something ‘inappropriate’ (I jest 🙂).
“I agree. Sometimes it’s their need for stimulation/people/entertaining that can feel draining to an introvert.”
And the need to be the centre of attention. I know one of these types through work – you hear her before you see her, and she’s always blind drunk by the end of a night, crying on someone’s shoulder.
“Her behavior toward your LO was quite rude. Like … childish-level rude.”
It was. She took me right up to a line of me thinking my friendship with her would have to be over, and backed down when I made that possibility clear. The thing that jars with me is that if you even slightly scratch the surface of my LO, you see that under the bluster, there are complexities – all is not as it first seems. She just needs people to do a bit of work to get to know her. I believe people can usually figure that out from a couple of minutes in her company. My friend just didn’t bother trying and assumed the worst. What I told her in the end was ‘I don’t expect you to like her. I just want to be allowed to be like both of you separately”.
“I have. I’ve gone over them with you. Just within the last week or so … I see the ending more clearly now. It’s been a lot of fun. Sarcasm implied, though I do appreciate the help.”
I’m glad if it has helped. Has chatting about it cemented what you already thought, or has your opinion / plan of action changed at all? I’m not trying to steer anything in any direction – just interested.
“I’m speaking VERY broadly here … IMO, there are four types of partnered men.”
I wonder what the pie chart would look like? I know you haven’t done a study 🙂 LwL is far from representative! I’m a category 2.
“I would say some have to have some genuine feelings for their affair partner.”
Me too. Unless they and their SO are finished in all but name, it would need some feelings for the AP, to move into your categories 3 or 4.
“They’ve done studies. Whoever your close friends are now … something like 50 or 70 percent won’t be close friends seven years from now.”
Do you think that stat changes as we get older?
LaR,
“And he has a LOT going on at the moment … so I didn’t get too much time to watch the sport.”
What did you talk about ? In all seriousness. Break the guy code. Tell me what you talk about. 🙂
The last time I met up with a new-ish female friend: work/past jobs, where we went to school/majors, where we’d lived before, where we grew up, family of origin dynamics/stuff and then it turned to your side. As it usually does. 🙂 (though not always, depends on the friend). Her long-term partner and this other “situation,” a little bit about sex. Nowhere in there do you see the topics you probably thought women talked about: hair, makeup, clothes, shoes. 🙂 They didn’t come up once. Although I can talk about that stuff.
“Yeah, what is the point in someone deluding themselves like that?”
That’s how I feel. I mean, you don’t have to beat yourself up over the past, but why lie to yourself?
“Prior to that I usually needed women to make it VERY blatant. ”
What do you mean by very blatant?
I would need signs the man was interested, but it’s what I was trying to say to MJ …. if I like a man, I’m going to help him out. I can’t say that every woman is like that, but I’m going to do my part (within reason). I also think limerence internally pushes you to want to do more. The price of admission is lower the higher the interest.
“If I (purely hypothetically) did go back to that old LO of mine, I’d probably say something ‘inappropriate’ (I jest 🙂).”
I mean that in all seriousness. What would I even say to someone who I haven’t talked to in decades? I don’t understand people who become single and then go scouring Facebook for available exes from years ago.
“And the need to be the centre of attention. I know one of these types through work – you hear her before you see her, and she’s always blind drunk by the end of a night, crying on someone’s shoulder.”
That’s annoying. It’s drama. It’s draining. People think of extroverts as being confident, but the most confident people are self-contained. Don’t need all that external attention.
“She just needs people to do a bit of work to get to know her. ”
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by this, but that’s a little bit of a red flag. Because I’m not sure that’s a reasonable expectation to have of people. Why should I want to do extra work for your LO (hypothetically)? I’m not a man. 🙂 There’s no incentive there.
“Has chatting about it cemented what you already thought, or has your opinion / plan of action changed at all? I’m not trying to steer anything in any direction – just interested.”
Ah, but that’s just it. There never really was a plan of action to take, was there? Not really. The door is shut. It’s pretty obvious. And I think the cringiest part is … he got the memo a million years ago. I highly doubt this is bothering him all this time later.
“I wonder what the pie chart would look like? I know you haven’t done a study 🙂 LwL is far from representative! I’m a category 2.”
Almost everybody on here is a category 3. Sorry. Don’t hate me. 🙂 Category 2s wouldn’t become limerent. They look, they notice … but they wouldn’t entertain someone else in any serious way. Wanting to have a “friendship” with an LO is … the very definition of the line.
[“I would say some have to have some genuine feelings for their affair partner.”]
“Me too. Unless they and their SO are finished in all but name, it would need some feelings for the AP, to move into your categories 3 or 4.”
Do men “move” into the categories? Or are they fixed? Idk.
I’m guessing you’re saying they need feelings as incentive to “become” 3s and 4s. I don’t think that’s true at all, but I ‘m not going to negate every affair as being solely for sex or entertainment or validation.
[“They’ve done studies. Whoever your close friends are now … something like 50 or 70 percent won’t be close friends seven years from now.”]
“Do you think that stat changes as we get older?”
I have two different stats because I ‘ve read them as being different in different articles. I don’t know if it changes as we get older. Here’s my question: Why is it ok to think about friendship as evolving? We “shed” friends as we move into different phases of life or as we change/grow. But why, then, wouldn’t we shed SOs?
Marcia,
“What did you talk about ? In all seriousness. Break the guy code.”
I feel like you’d quite like it if I could answer that by saying we discussed stuff like weightlifting, diving with sharks and which Rocky film was the best 🙂 Alas I can’t – neither of us are typical males!
I have known him for ages, so there is no ‘getting to know you’ work to be done. We talked about work, things we’ve been watching on TV, mutual friends, what we’ve been doing the last few months. Then, loads about challenges with our families – mostly the demands and quirks of older relatives and the impact they have. And discussions like ‘would you ever move to get away from all that, and if not why not?’.
One thing I can generally tell you from my experience of male friends – and it won’t surprise you – is we hardly ever discuss relations with our SOs. Like – the level I went into that here with you last week is way above anything I’d ever say to a male friend. Our SOs do crop up in conversation – we just don’t get into any ‘personal’ bits. Most of the times my male friends have ever done that, their relationships with their SO have been basically over.
“Nowhere in there do you see the topics you probably thought women talked about: hair, makeup, clothes, shoes.”
It’s clichéd to think women talk about that stuff too much. But I do think they talk about and analyse feelings, relationships and friendships much more than men do.
[“Prior to that I usually needed women to make it VERY blatant.”]
“What do you mean by very blatant?”
I pretty much needed to *know* they wanted me to ask them out before I’d do it. It wasn’t a realistic expectation. Like you say, we should be able to read strong hints / help. I am talking about younger me here, who feared rejection strongly. I missed chances because of it – sometimes confirmed by friends of the woman concerned, and even twice (later) by the women themselves.
“I also think limerence internally pushes you to want to do more”
Very true. I did some cringe bits with LO. Gifts, gestures, ‘acts of kindness’ etc.
“I don’t understand people who become single and then go scouring Facebook for available exes from years ago.”
I don’t understand actively *doing* anything that way, though I do sometimes find myself looking on social media at what former ‘flames’ are doing now, how they look etc. Not for hours on end, and not with intention – but I do have the odd Facebook or Insta ‘drive-by’.
“People think of extroverts as being confident, but the most confident people are self-contained. Don’t need all that external attention.”
Empty vessels make the most noise. It’s like who are the people who try to make a public show of having wealth? Not those who have the real wealth.
“Why should I want to do extra work for your LO (hypothetically)?
I don’t mean she expects that everyone will do that work. What I mean is, we all know there is more to a person than first impressions, and sometimes it’s worth checking that out (this point links back to my work friend, who would not trust my judgement that there is a different side to LO, enough to at least give her the time of day).
“I’m not a man. There’s no incentive there.”
But you like loyal friends. I see a lot of what LO is like to her female friends (in summary – as loyal as the day is long) and how much they want to keep her around. She’s that type of friend like you talked to Snow about – the one who’d remember you had an appointment at the hospital and offer to take you to it, or drive 5 hours to see you at the weekend if she knew you needed it.
“Ah, but that’s just it. There never really was a plan of action to take, was there? Not really. The door is shut. It’s pretty obvious.”
I thought (but might have got it wrong) that during our back and forth about him, you were still wondering whether to try and engineer another conversation – for ‘closure’ for want of a better word. I don’t usually give strong opinions unless I’m asked, but if you had asked me, I’d have said a firm ‘don’t do it!’. But I think you arrived at that view anyway.
“Almost everybody on here is a category 3. Sorry. Don’t hate me. Category 2s wouldn’t become limerent.”
I guess I’ve crossed some of the lines into C3 but not all. Many limerents DO very little – so would come across as C2 even if in their heads they’re C3.
“Do men “move” into the categories? Or are they fixed? Idk.”
I don’t think they are totally fixed. What starts as one thing sometimes turns to another. And the same man could change category depending on their stage of life and satisfaction with their relationship. (But not all men. Some men are fixed – that applies at both ends of the spectrum – serial monogamists and serial philanderers).
“Here’s my question: Why is it ok to think about friendship as evolving? We “shed” friends as we move into different phases of life or as we change/grow. But why, then, wouldn’t we shed SOs?”
This is flipping it around a bit, but as people change/grow, many do ‘shed’ SOs (see DrL’s latest post). Equally, there will be natural attrition of friends as people grow apart. And friends do and say stupid things to each other, which are sometimes unrecoverable. All of that said – in (I think) agreement with you, I’d prefer it if we took a starting point that those things *wouldn’t* happen with our friends, and worked to make it a last resort, not a norm.
LaR,
“I feel like you’d quite like it if I could answer that by saying we discussed stuff like weightlifting, diving with sharks and which Rocky film was the best ”
Or who has the best butt in Hollywood. 🙂
“And discussions like ‘would you ever move to get away from all that, and if not why not?’.”
What did you determine? Do you mean helping aging parents or something like that?
“One thing I can generally tell you from my experience of male friends – and it won’t surprise you – is we hardly ever discuss relations with our SOs. ”
That actually does surprise me. You mean you don’t get into a conversation about sex with your SOs? Or a conversation about your relationships with your SOs? I do with my female friends, on both accounts. Now, to be very clear, it’s usually a close friend (though not always). And it depends on the friend herself. With certain friends, I don’t talk about either topic much. But with others (mostly friends in the past), we have gotten into the nitty and the gritty 🙂 It’s not always sex with the SO but previous partners.
“It’s clichéd to think women talk about that stuff too much. But I do think they talk about and analyse feelings, relationships and friendships much more than men do.”
I agree.
“I pretty much needed to *know* they wanted me to ask them out before I’d do it. It wasn’t a realistic expectation. Like you say, we should be able to read strong hints / help.”
But I was asking what a woman would have to do to make it clear. I do think it can sometimes be difficult to tell the difference between friendly and FRIENDLY.
With LO-lite, he was the one to reach out first, but then I started the second email exchange. I didn’t say all that much in that email, but the very act of reaching out sent a message about intention. And he got it.
“Very true. I did some cringe bits with LO. Gifts, gestures, ‘acts of kindness’ etc.”
I did WAY too much for my last big LO. But I tempered that down with LO-lite. It was more of the dance of doing a little as he did a little. But if the interest isn’t as strong, I won’t stick my neck out as much.
“though I do sometimes find myself looking on social media at what former ‘flames’ are doing now, how they look etc. Not for hours on end, and not with intention – but I do have the odd Facebook or Insta ‘drive-by’.”
I do that, too, but I wouldn’t dream of contacting them.
“It’s like who are the people who try to make a public show of having wealth? Not those who have the real wealth.”
Yes. Or … no offense … members of your side who ramble on about all the women who like them. If they were really doing well with women, they wouldn’t have to announce it.
“I don’t mean she expects that everyone will do that work. What I mean is, we all know there is more to a person than first impressions”
Very true. I was speaking more, I guess, about people who expect you to draw them out.
“But you like loyal friends. ”
I do. But I don’t have the sexual incentive of attraction like a man would to get to know a woman. That’s what I was saying.
“I thought (but might have got it wrong) that during our back and forth about him, you were still wondering whether to try and engineer another conversation – for ‘closure’ for want of a better word.”
Oh, no. It would be to engineer him back into my life. That would be my motivation.
“I guess I’ve crossed some of the lines into C3 but not all. ”
C3 is a broad category, but you have, on some level, pursued your LO. That’s full-on level 3. I don’t know how far it’s gone because you’ve been a little vague. Heavy flirting? Sexting? Touching? EA? 🙂 (I’m not asking you to tell me if you don’t want to.)
“Many limerents DO very little – so would come across as C2 even if in their heads they’re C3.”
I guess so. I’d have to think about that. I’m thinking of two married men right now who I doubt have ever been seriously tempted by another woman. I could be wrong. Now, one is divorced and married to his second wife, who I do think is his person from what he said. And he definitely had a himbo phase in between marriages. Maybe he got it out of his system ? The other one married really young. I’m not saying he didn’t get a little flirty. And he complimented me. But it was mostly teasing and chatting about his life and our co-workers. Neither one of us wanted any more to happen. I did like him quite a bit and I respected him.
“This is flipping it around a bit, but as people change/grow, many do ‘shed’ SOs (see DrL’s latest post). ”
There are a lot of life phases. Are they getting a new SO at every phase? After high school, after college, at the start of the domestication/having children phase, in the midlife phase, in the kids-are-off-to-school phase, in the retirement phase, etc. But it’s not uncommon to make new friends and/or shed old ones at these phases.
“And friends do and say stupid things to each other, which are sometimes unrecoverable. All of that said – in (I think) agreement with you, I’d prefer it if we took a starting point that those things *wouldn’t* happen with our friends, and worked to make it a last resort, not a norm.”
I’m not sure what you’re talking about here. These seem to be two separate topics ? Yes, some friendships need to or should end. What I was talking about is someone who, for example, gets a serious boyfriend and how that affects her friendships.
Speaking of friends … OMG, my guy friend has turned out to be a moron. He’s playing games with me … I’m kind of baffled as to how he’s expecting me to respond or what his motivation is. I guess my point is … I ‘m not invested enough to want to continue with this dynamic. It’s easier to manipulate someone who is really invested. I can’t understand why he doesn’t know that.
Marcia,
“What did you determine? Do you mean helping aging parents or something like that?”
Exactly. We concluded that moving is often very difficult – nice idea on paper but hard to see through
Both of his parents don’t have that long left, so he’s glad he’s around them but in other ways he feels it’s holding his life back. Mine could have longer left (as far as I know, knock on wood) but I also have legitimate reasons for thinking I should be near them for now. SO’s are … shall we say … a challenge. I feel they could construct wider support networks, but won’t while their adult kids are near – it is easier to lean on them but not always kind.
“You mean you don’t get into a conversation about sex with your SOs? Or a conversation about your relationships with your SOs?”
Neither really. Basic chat about the relationship but nothing deep, and hardly ever chat about sex. That was different when we were single and ‘shopping around’ – and might be if we were again. But as most of my friends are in LTRs, no – chats about sex with the SOs are pretty much out.
“I do with my female friends, on both accounts.”
Not surprised – it’s a view I have that females in general discuss that more.
“But I was asking what a woman would have to do to make it clear. I do think it can sometimes be difficult to tell the difference between friendly and FRIENDLY.”
I’ve always struggled with that difference, as most men do I think. I agree with what you’ve said before that often it is the physical signals that distinguish friendly and FRIENDLY.
At one stage (I’m talking a long time ago – college and directly), I practically needed them to tell me “I want you to ask me out”. I got better at reading hints as I got older – like if they escalate the level of texts or keep ‘turning up’ in places where I am.
“I didn’t say all that much in that email, but the very act of reaching out sent a message about intention. And he got it.”
Yes, sometimes that’s enough if they’re looking. With SO, I started out with emails I didn’t really need to send.
“I did WAY too much for my last big LO. But I tempered that down with LO-lite.”
You’re learning 🙂
“If they were really doing well with women, they wouldn’t have to announce it.”
And we’ve all known some of those ‘announcers’ in our lives.
“Very true. I was speaking more, I guess, about people who expect you to draw them out.”
If I gave that impression of LO, I hit a wrong note. It is more that she can be a bit ‘in your face’ for a lot of people, and they don’t always figure out why it is or get past it. But that’s their prerogative.
“Oh, no. It would be to engineer him back into my life. That would be my motivation”
For what it’s worth, my opinion is that to do that, you’d need to know two things. 1. that you think it would more than likely succeed, 2.what would need to be different from before to create a different outcome that works for you.
Sorry to be so much in ‘logical brain’ about this. I have witnessed through what you’ve written that you have suffered for the experience with him. That’s why I said the above. You’d need a very good degree of certainty to make the possibility of having to suffer it all over again worthwhile. I would say ‘don’t do it’ … while also recognising it is far easier for me to write that, than for you to live it when you feel limerent.
“I don’t know how far it’s gone because you’ve been a little vague.
Heavy flirting?”
Flirting, but I’d say quite light and safe flirting.
“Sexting?”
No
“Touching?”
Yes, but not that often. Situations often crop up where it would feel natural to touch, and I wouldn’t worry that she would dislike it, but I hold back mostly, and I can feel that she does too. This is one of those where I have seen ratchets before – if I chance a touch, I tend to get it returned with interest. She’ll slap me playfully at times and we do sometimes hug, but not very often and only where there is a socially appropriate reason.
“EA?”
Depends like we said a day or two ago when defining EAs, if both people know what’s going on. We have shared a lot with each other – her more than me. But in other ways no, eg we aren’t texting each other all the time and can sometimes be NC for a few weeks if off work.
“And he definitely had a himbo phase in between marriages.”
What’s himbo?
“I’m not sure what you’re talking about here. These seem to be two separate topics?”
I lost my thread a bit. I was trying to say – sometimes friendships inevitably end, but it would be good if that was the exception, not the rule.
“What I was talking about is someone who, for example, gets a serious boyfriend and how that affects her friendships.”
And why do so many people let that happen?
“He’s playing games with me … I’m kind of baffled as to how he’s expecting me to respond or what his motivation is.”
Can you say more? Or do you prefer to just cut and run from him at this point?
LaR,
” SO’s are … shall we say … a challenge. I feel they could construct wider support networks, but won’t while their adult kids are near – it is easier to lean on them but not always kind.”
You may have to have set up some boundaries with them. (And this all depends on their health issues, so take what I’m saying with a grain of salt.) She may have to tell them, “I’m available to help on Saturday morning from 9 to 12.” Or “I can take calls on Tuesday and Thursday night.” It sounds a little harsh, but sometimes you have to do it if they’re not respecting that you and your SO have other stuff to do and have lives. Or offer to set up some home health aides. Or tell them, specifically: You need to expand your network.
“Basic chat about the relationship but nothing deep, and hardly ever chat about sex. That was different when we were single and ‘shopping around’ – and might be if we were again. But as most of my friends are in LTRs, no – chats about sex with the SOs are pretty much out.”
Is that because … it’s an SO and it’s … um … the same sex for years? If you got a new SO, would you talk about it?
[“I do with my female friends, on both accounts.”]
“Not surprised – it’s a view I have that females in general discuss that more.”
It’s where I’ve gotten some new tips, new ideas. 🙂
“I’ve always struggled with that difference, as most men do I think. I agree with what you’ve said before that often it is the physical signals that distinguish friendly and FRIENDLY.”
I’m not sure how women let men know. What I look for on my end: flirting (not teasing but flirting, there’s a difference), touching, compliments. Staring, hovering.
“At one stage (I’m talking a long time ago – college and directly), I practically needed them to tell me “I want you to ask me out”.
I had a male friend years ago who was similar. He went out one night (he was in his 40s) and ending up hitting it off with a woman and she gave him her phone number as she left. He told me he would not have asked for it himself. BUT …. he picked it up from there. He called her the next day. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with what she did. I just don’t want to drive the bus, but I’ll throw ball.
“With SO, I started out with emails I didn’t really need to send.”
That’s what he did. A ratchet can be a small gesture, but it has to be something you haven’t done before and enough to make the other person wonder.
[“I did WAY too much for my last big LO. But I tempered that down with LO-lite.”]
“You’re learning 🙂”
If I had “learned,” I would have stayed away entirely. But that’s another topic.
I did two things differently: Only my part in terms of getting things going and asking what was happening. I am not doing that limbo crap again. (I mean that in general, not just with him.)
[“If they were really doing well with women, they wouldn’t have to announce it.”]
“And we’ve all known some of those ‘announcers’ in our lives.”
It usually has the OPPOSITE effect of what the announcer intends. I don’t think: Oh, gosh, this guy has it going on. I think: This guy is lying. Or really insecure.
“If I gave that impression of LO, I hit a wrong note. It is more that she can be a bit ‘in your face’ for a lot of people, and they don’t always figure out why it is or get past it. But that’s their prerogative.”
I’d have to meet her. It takes lot for someone to flat-out offend me. Although there are some people I avoid and don’t care for. Your friend’s reaction to your LO was really over the top.
“For what it’s worth, my opinion is that to do that, you’d need to know two things. 1. that you think it would more than likely succeed”
I think it’s unlikely, but Idk.
“what would need to be different from before to create a different outcome that works for you.”
I don’t see that happening. There’s nothing for me there. He exists in whole other sphere with someone else.
“Sorry to be so much in ‘logical brain’ about this. ”
That’s fine. I’m not going to contact him. I think I’ve known that for a while. It’s just finally all sinking in. And it’s not like he gives two craps and is contacting me.
“Flirting, but I’d say quite light and safe flirting.”
There is no safe flirting with an LO. 🙂
“She’ll slap me playfully at times and we do sometimes hug, but not very often and only where there is a socially appropriate reason.”
What kind of hugs? Full body? Pelvis-to-pelvis?
“But in other ways no, eg we aren’t texting each other all the time and can sometimes be NC for a few weeks if off work.”
I wouldn’t call that an EA. An EA is … you’re almost having two relationships, with your SO and your EA partner. Your EA partner (I’m not sure what else to call them) sees you as their go-to person.
“What’s himbo?”
Male bimbo 🙂
“I lost my thread a bit. I was trying to say – sometimes friendships inevitably end, but it would be good if that was the exception, not the rule.”
It depends on the situation. I have found that with new friends … if we can make it past the 3-month or so mark (ballpark), we’re doing well. It seems like things can often kind of peter out (people fade away, for example) or you find out something about the person you don’t like and you don’t want to continue. Has that happened with you?
“And why do so many people let that happen?”
Because they get a shinier object and they de-prioritize the friendship. That’s what I was trying to say. When people have a big life change, it’s usually the friendships that either get less time/change or are let go.
“Can you say more? Or do you prefer to just cut and run from him at this point?”
I’m totally done. I’m surprised someone of our advanced age is being this obvious and ridiculous.
I’ll say more later. I’m processing. I kind of suspected what he was doing, but I thought maybe I was reading too much into things.
Marcia,
“You may have to have set up some boundaries with them.”
I agree. A bit of it is down to health issues, but much of it isn’t. I can set my own boundaries but unless my SO is also prepared to set hers with them, there are limits. She makes the right noises and has spells of better boundaries – but the parents really know how to press buttons and reel in.
“Or tell them, specifically: You need to expand your network.”
I don’t disagree, but again SO needs to lead any such efforts.
“Is that because … it’s an SO and it’s … um … the same sex for years? If you got a new SO, would you talk about it?”
Idk – maybe more so. Getting a new SO is quite rare among my main group of male friends – most of them married pretty young and are still with their wives.
“I’m not sure how women let men know. What I look for on my end: flirting (not teasing but flirting, there’s a difference), touching, compliments. Staring, hovering.”
Staring and hovering are strange ones. You’d find those really annoying and creepy if you didn’t have interest in the guy, but it could work very differently if you were interested. I think once you’ve (plural) got a real interest in a person, you kind of can’t help but stare, even if you try not to. And you can’t help but like it if the other person stares at you. It’s just whether the planets have aligned…
“she gave him her phone number as she left. He told me he would not have asked for it himself.”
Good on her. He’d have really appreciated that help. But I guess it’s usually an attractive trait in a man if he is willing to brave making the big ratchets himself?
“If I had “learned,” I would have stayed away entirely. But that’s another topic.”
Yes, but we’ve been round this loop enough times now for me to understand why you didn’t 🙂
“I don’t think: Oh, gosh, this guy has it going on. I think: This guy is lying. Or really insecure.”
I do think this points to a sex difference. When I have known women be juggling more than one man, they seem faintly embarassed to discuss it – they don’t boast about it. Exceptions apply, but generally speaking.
“That’s fine. I’m not going to contact him. I think I’ve known that for a while. It’s just finally all sinking in.”
I know that death of hope is REALLY not a fun part of the process, but it is a stage that has to be passed through to get out the other side. Unfortunately. Offload here if needed.
“There is no safe flirting with an LO. 🙂”
True that. I meant the topics of the flirting are fairly safe / ‘deniable’ ones. The behaviour is NEVER safe.
“What kind of hugs? Full body? Pelvis-to-pelvis?”
Yes sometimes. Though on those occasions I’ve been so self-conscious and swept up in the moment that I’ve run on auto-pilot and haven’t remembered much about it. I shall improve my hug journalling 🙂 I probably usually extend the hug ‘a bit too long’.
“Your EA partner (I’m not sure what else to call them) sees you as their go-to person.”
We were getting close to that before my request for space to get my own house in order, but we haven’t gone back there since.
“if we can make it past the 3-month or so mark (ballpark), we’re doing well. It seems like things can often kind of peter out (people fade away, for example) or you find out something about the person you don’t like and you don’t want to continue. Has that happened with you?”
I think it’s rare for me because I play it a bit differently. I take my time before I’ll give a lot to a friendship (keep people a bit at a distance at first) by which time I usually know enough about them to think that it will have a good chance of sustaining. When I’ve lost people I thought were good friends, it’s been because it was all take and no give, or they didn’t respect the friendship properly, or they got jealous of other friendships and their attitude ‘turned’. Usually a slow fade, although the odd moment when something was said and I just knew instantly it was over.
“Because they get a shinier object and they de-prioritize the friendship.”
That’s often very naive and short-term on their part.
This is one we’ve debated many times before, but the matter of opposite-sex friends becomes an issue here. The ‘shinier object’ (new SO) might not want their partner to keep their opposite-sex friends. Now you’ve said to me at different times 1. that if a guy was your friend and they got an SO, you’d be disappointed if they de-prioritized their friendship with you too much, and 2. if you got a new SO, you wouldn’t really want him to hang around with female friends. As the guy, it can be tricky to balance those things (Not meant to be a point about me and my LO, as I know that well and truly muddies the waters – more of a general point).
“I’m totally done. I’m surprised someone of our advanced age is being this obvious and ridiculous.”
Some people are emotionally stunted. Some to a VERY childish level.
“I kind of suspected what he was doing, but I thought maybe I was reading too much into things.”
And now you’re sure you’re not?
LaR,
“I agree. A bit of it is down to health issues, but much of it isn’t. I can set my own boundaries but unless my SO is also prepared to set hers with them, there are limits. She makes the right noises and has spells of better boundaries – but the parents really know how to press buttons and reel in.”
So what do you do then? I ask because I had a former co-worker who told me he would leave in the middle of doing something with his wife to help his parents (and the couple of reasons he gave for them calling for help were … ridiculous; no immediacy there). But he clearly was still trying (man in his 40s) to get their approval. That would have driven me crazy if I was married to him.
“Idk – maybe more so. Getting a new SO is quite rare among my main group of male friends – most of them married pretty young and are still with their wives.”
Are your friends pretty conservative (socially, not politically)?
“Staring and hovering are strange ones. You’d find those really annoying and creepy if you didn’t have interest in the guy”
You’ll find almost anything annoying and creepy if you don’t like the guy.
“But I guess it’s usually an attractive trait in a man if he is willing to brave making the big ratchets himself?”
I think so. It’s beaten into a woman’s head that men like the chase. Is that true? At the very least, don’t you value someone a little more if you have to go after her?
But … also … something else we haven’t talked about … the rules are a little different depending on your goal or what’s reasonably on the table. IMO. If you’re trying to date and get to know each other and have a possible relationship (jumping through the dating “hoops” we talked about in an earlier post) … then, yes, I prefer the man to lead in the beginning. But if you know going into it that that’s not possible … you know it’s going to be short-term or a little screwy (LO-lite) … you can’t really “date” in the traditional sense … those rules don’t apply as much.
“When I have known women be juggling more than one man, they seem faintly embarrassed to discuss it – they don’t boast about it. Exceptions apply, but generally speaking.”
The social cache is different for men and women. For men, it’s numbers; for women, it’s quality.
But I guess my point was … a man who does well with women doesn’t have to announce it. You can just tell.
“I know that death of hope is REALLY not a fun part of the process, but it is a stage that has to be passed through to get out the other side. Unfortunately. Offload here if needed.”
I appreciate that. I won’t lie: Part of me’s hoping you talk me out of it. A small part. 🙂
“True that. I meant the topics of the flirting are fairly safe / ‘deniable’ ones. ”
I don’t know what you mean by “safe,” but anything along the lines of what I posted to Mila that my last big LO said or compliments that are sexual-ish in nature versus general (“You’re hot” or “You’re pretty” versus “You look nice in that shirt”) are not what I would call safe.
“Though on those occasions I’ve been so self-conscious and swept up in the moment that I’ve run on auto-pilot and haven’t remembered much about it. ”
Understood. 🙂 But now you’ve got me thinking about hugging my guy friend. I don’t really remember “getting up in there” … I hope I didn’t.
“I shall improve my hug journalling 🙂 ”
As I’m sure can tell, I like details. 🙂 Now if you could feel part of her … er … upper body … if you were that tight … that’s a hug. 🙂
“We were getting close to that before my request for space to get my own house in order, but we haven’t gone back there since.”
I’m confused. Did you make such a request? You verbalized it to her ?
“I think it’s rare for me because I play it a bit differently. I take my time before I’ll give a lot to a friendship (keep people a bit at a distance at first) by which time I usually know enough about them to think that it will have a good chance of sustaining. ”
That’s probably a better way of doing it.
As a general rule, in my case, it’s usually a mutual fade with these new friendships. It usually boils down to flakiness in their making plans and/or not keeping in touch/making enough effort, and I stop bothering. Although occasionally it is … finding out something about them I don’t like.
“Usually a slow fade, although the odd moment when something was said and I just knew instantly it was over.”
What kind of things? With my long-term friendships that ended, there was sometimes something about them that I knew was there but that I either overlooked or it got worse since I first met them. And I just didn’t want to around them anymore. It wasn’t so much one thing that was said or done … but a build-up over time … maybe they were super negative.
“This is one we’ve debated many times before, but the matter of opposite-sex friends becomes an issue here.”
Funny how you go right to opposite-sex friendships. 🙂 I was actually thinking of women and their female friends. Google “my best friend got a boyfriend and ghosted me.” It’s common.
“1. that if a guy was your friend and they got an SO, you’d be disappointed if they de-prioritized their friendship with you too much, and 2. if you got a new SO, you wouldn’t really want him to hang around with female friends.”
Yes, as the friend, I would be disappointed. But I also said I wouldn’t seriously date a man with a lot of female friends. So it wouldn’t be a matter of me not wanting him to hang around his female friends. Because they wouldn’t exist. 🙂
“And now you’re sure you’re not?”
Yes
Marcia,
[the parents really know how to press buttons and reel in]
“So what do you do then?”
I’ve got better over the years at saying ‘if that’s what you want to do with your Saturday, you go and deal with it’. That doesn’t sound very nice when I write it out. It’s all on a case by case basis – if it is something that’s really urgent then of course I’ll go and help out. But that’s to support SO, not because I’m looking for the parents’ approval. I should add that my family also has complexities which affect SO, so sometimes we have to take a view on it and just deal with our own sides.
“Are your friends pretty conservative (socially, not politically)?”
My longer term friends, yes. My newer ones, not so much.
“I think so. It’s beaten into a woman’s head that men like the chase. Is that true?”
I think it’s biologically undeniable.
“At the very least, don’t you value someone a little more if you have to go after her?”
Yes. But it grows old if it goes on too long.
“the rules are a little different depending on your goal or what’s reasonably on the table. IMO.”
I’d expect and even want to take those steps in proper dating. Even down to paying if I took a woman out for a meal on an early date. Though some women seem to no longer want that, ‘because equality’ (and I don’t mean to sound flippant about that issue – it’s just an observation). And yeah like you say, the rules do go out the window when it’s a more casual hookup type situ.
“But I guess my point was … a man who does well with women doesn’t have to announce it. You can just tell.”
What are the tell-tale signs, from a woman’s perspective?
[I know that death of hope is REALLY not a fun part of the process]
“I won’t lie: Part of me’s hoping you talk me out of it. A small part.”
You mean when you were floating the idea of contacting him? I went as far as I wanted to with the questions I asked.
My overall view is that a DoH should be “one and done”; twice over the same person just feels longer and harder than toughing it out in one hit. I might be way off, but that’s my view.
[I meant the topics of the flirting are fairly safe / ‘deniable’ ones.]
“I don’t know what you mean by “safe” ”
It’s never sexually suggestive like your last big LO’s comments. We ‘neg’ each other to a very high level that I couldn’t get away with with most people (happens in front of others, and alone) – but that’s probably just friendly banter. Other co-workers vocalise jokes (never in an unkind way) about us having an affair, and the ways we ride that out when it happens can be quite funny. Something like that should by rights make the two people feel quite uncomfortable, but it never really does.
“Now if you could feel part of her … er … upper body … if you were that tight … that’s a hug.”
Now there’s a thought. Smelling salts please 🙂
“I’m confused. Did you make such a request? You verbalized it to her?”
Said I’d need to step back from the friendship for a time. She got it and kind of agreed. I explained that part in my tome to you about me and SO.
“As a general rule, in my case, it’s usually a mutual fade with these new friendships. It usually boils down to flakiness in their making plans and/or not keeping in touch/making enough effort, and I stop bothering.”
I really dislike flakes too. I’m not too tit-for-tat about these things (not like my parents, who have a naughty list of people that didn’t send them a Christmas card) … but the effort level on both sides needs to be fairly equal, or the more proactive one will give up eventually, or feel like giving up at least.
“What kind of things? With my long-term friendships that ended, there was sometimes something about them that I knew was there but that I either overlooked or it got worse since I first met them. And I just didn’t want to around them anymore.”
If someone is rude or aggressive to me without good reason. Or I’ve had ones that used me for something … but the fact it was using didn’t become clear until I needed something back and they didn’t deliver. I don’t like ultimatums or attempts to back me into corners – like the recent example I gave.
“But I also said I wouldn’t seriously date a man with a lot of female friends”.
Isn’t that cutting off a section of the market though? Wouldn’t the fact that lots of women liked a guy be a good advert for him (in general)?
I’m half serious with the second question, but am partly pulling your leg. I KNOW I will never persuade you on this point and when I mention it nowadays, it’s mainly in jest 🙂
LaR,
“I’ve got better over the years at saying ‘if that’s what you want to do with your Saturday, you go and deal with it’. That doesn’t sound very nice when I write it out. ”
No, I get it. But as a general rule, what do you do if the SO has no boundaries with family? Or is complaining about a job or a friend, etc., for months on end? Do you eventually say, “I can’t talk about this anymore”? Because the other person won’t do anything about said issue?
[“I think so. It’s beaten into a woman’s head that men like the chase. Is that true?”]
“I think it’s biologically undeniable.”
Really? That’s demoralizing, when I think of some of the men who have pursued me. And who I hoped would but didn’t. Also, because I HATE sitting there like a passive flower, waiting to be picked. I HATE it. I like to do the picking. However, I’d say the situations I’ve been in that were the easiest in terms of getting things moving into something concrete (even if it was just a hook up) and the hottest situations were when the guy came after me. There’s something about a man knowing what he wants and going after it. Now, there’s a big caveat to that for your side, though. Pursuing is fine. You call, she calls you back. You ask out, she says yes and shows up. You text, she texts back. Chasing is not. It’s continuing to pursue when you’re getting either mixed signals or not enough back. Then you have to walk. You have to have some standards.
“Yes. But it grows old if it goes on too long.”
See above.
“Even down to paying if I took a woman out for a meal on an early date. Though some women seem to no longer want that, ‘because equality’ (and I don’t mean to sound flippant about that issue – it’s just an observation). ”
I think a man should pay for the early dates. Now … I do not expect an extravagant dates.
“And yeah like you say, the rules do go out the window when it’s a more casual hookup type situ.”
To a certain extent.
“What are the tell-tale signs, from a woman’s perspective?”
The way he carries himself, the way he interacts with women, the way other women watch/respond to him/talk about him.
“You mean when you were floating the idea of contacting him? ”
Yes
“My overall view is that a DoH should be “one and done”; twice over the same person just feels longer and harder than toughing it out in one hit. I might be way off, but that’s my view.”
I have literally no idea what this means. 🙂
“It’s never sexually suggestive like your last big LO’s comments. ”
To be clear, I’m not against those kinds of comments. It depends on who’s saying them. 🙂
“Something like that should by rights make the two people feel quite uncomfortable, but it never really does.”
I don’t think I’m following you.
I don’t know your work situation. And it’s been a while since there were comments made about me and someone else at work, but the last time there were (not with my LO, with a male friend) … I didn’t really care. And he didn’t seem to. Or didn’t say he did. I did nothing to change my behavior to curb the comments.
[“Now if you could feel part of her … er … upper body … if you were that tight … that’s a hug.”]
“Now there’s a thought. Smelling salts please 🙂”
You either felt them or you didn’t. 🙂 I’m assuming you didn’t, from what you wrote. But if the hug was tight enough, you should have. 🙂
“Said I’d need to step back from the friendship for a time. She got it and kind of agreed. I explained that part in my tome to you about me and SO.”
Was I on crack when I read your “tome”? Or did your length and/or excessive, confusing verbiage serve as Ambien for me? 🙂 I really don’t remember you telling me you had told her that. I admire your directness with her. Instead of just slowly pulling away and leaving her confused.
“I really dislike flakes too.”
I HATE flakes.
“I’m not too tit-for-tat about these things (not like my parents, who have a naughty list of people that didn’t send them a Christmas card) … ”
That does seems a little excessive. But, for example, I have a friend who lives about 15 minutes away who I haven’t seen in 2 years. It was too much of a pain in the ass to schedule something with her and get her to show up. I gave up. She texts occasionally and I respond, but I will make plans with her again.
“I don’t like ultimatums or attempts to back me into corners – like the recent example I gave.
I don’t blame you. Her behavior was … odd. I think I would have been tempted to say, “You don’t pay my bills or sleep in my bed. I don’t owe you an explanation.”
“Wouldn’t the fact that lots of women liked a guy be a good advert for him (in general)?”
I know you’re kidding, but it would actually be a big red flag. Who are these friends? Are they orbiters? People he keeps around for attention/validation or as potential jump-offs? Is it an ex he can’t get over and keeps around? Is it a woman who friendzoned him but he’s hoping she’ll change her mind?
Marcia,
“But as a general rule, what do you do if the SO has no boundaries with family?”
Leave them to it a good amount of the time – it’s their choice and within their power to change.
“Or is complaining about a job or a friend, etc., for months on end? Do you eventually say, “I can’t talk about this anymore”? Because the other person won’t do anything about said issue?”
Yes. SO and I have had those, both ways round.
“Also, because I HATE sitting there like a passive flower, waiting to be picked. I HATE it. I like to do the picking.”
OK – you may not agree with me here but I don’t think it really works like that. The woman very often does the picking by making initial moves to show some interest. As you’ve put it, helping the man out. He can then take the ‘expected’ male steps, feeling confident he’s got her interest.
The initial sign given by the woman in those situations is usually a strong hint (or collection of them) but not a verbal ‘disclosure’ type thing.
“Chasing is not [fine]. It’s continuing to pursue when you’re getting either mixed signals or not enough back. Then you have to walk. You have to have some standards.”
SO gave me some mixed signals after we first went out. We’d both done our bit on the ratchets before that. But then she seemed to go colder … so much so that I almost gave up, but then she stepped her game back up. I asked her about it once we were securely dating. She said she didn’t want to seem too keen and wanted me to do the ‘male’ bit. But it could be that she just wasn’t quite sure at that stage – I can live with that, if true.
“I think a man should pay for the early dates. Now … I do not expect an extravagant dates.”
I had some resistance to that from SO – she wanted to pay her way. But I wanted to do a few more extravagant things and didn’t expect her to have to pay for it.
“The way he carries himself, the way he interacts with women, the way other women watch/respond to him/talk about him.”
I agree – even as a man, you can just tell. I’ve got one male friend who used to be like that. But he aged quite quickly (lost his hair etc) and he lost all that confidence and ability with women with it. He’s married, but in the earlier years with her, that didn’t stop his pursuit of others.
[“My overall view is that a DoH should be “one and done”; twice over the same person just feels longer and harder than toughing it out in one hit. I might be way off, but that’s my view.”]
“I have literally no idea what this means.”
I meant – I feel you have endured / are enduring the worst bits of your death of hope (DoH) re LO-lite. A couple of messages ago, you said part of you hoped I’d persuade you out of it. I assumed that you meant I could (in theory) give you encouragement to try again with him. With the facts I know, I feel that doing would be setting up either a longer/harder DoH now, or a second and worse DoH later. That’s why I don’t want to offer that encouragement. Unless – like I asked you – you could see a clear route to a different outcome. And you said you couldn’t see one.
[“Something like that should by rights make the two people feel quite uncomfortable, but it never really does.”]
“I don’t think I’m following you.”
Generally, I’d expect workplace jokes – like the ones made about me and LO – to create discomfort for both people. But it hasn’t seemed to do that. We laugh it off and it doesn’t change how either of us behaves.
“but the last time there were (not with my LO, with a male friend) … I didn’t really care. And he didn’t seem to. Or didn’t say he did. I did nothing to change my behavior to curb the comments.”
Yes – your example is like what I meant about my case.
“You either felt them or you didn’t. I’m assuming you didn’t, from what you wrote. But if the hug was tight enough, you should have.”
Need to try harder 🙂
“Or did your length and/or excessive, confusing verbiage serve as Ambien for me?”
Oh surely not 🙂
“I really don’t remember you telling me you had told her that. I admire your directness with her. Instead of just slowly pulling away and leaving her confused.”
Here’s the thing – she has never done anything wrong towards me. She has been a model ‘good LO’. Not that many people on this site claim that about their LO. And she’s my friend.
So I took the decision long ago that I won’t pull out suddenly or ghost her, without explaining why. If/when we no longer work together, I might think that I want NC to end the LE. If that happens, I will disclose as well (but without expectation of her telling me anything back – and that’s crucial). I will explain why I need NC. I couldn’t in good conscience ghost her without saying that. You may say that it wouldn’t bother her as much as I think it would, and you might be right. But that’s how I feel.
“It was too much of a pain in the ass to schedule something with her and get her to show up. I gave up.”
I know a few people that work on a principle of 3 failed attempts to schedule (or even 3 consecutive initiations of contact) and then give up.
“I don’t blame you. Her behavior was … odd. I think I would have been tempted to say, “You don’t pay my bills or sleep in my bed. I don’t owe you an explanation.””
She dressed it up as concern, and as blind spots she thought I had. In the end, I just plainly let her know the two choices open to her. It’s a shame, as she was a rock for me in my previous LE and was the only person I confided in about that.
“Who are these friends? Are they orbiters? People he keeps around for attention/validation or as potential jump-offs? Is it an ex he can’t get over and keeps around? Is it a woman who friendzoned him but he’s hoping she’ll change her mind?”
So as to talk specifics, here are the examples of the four close female friends I had when I met SO (I am excluding LO, as we already know what happened there).
1. Known the friend since college, never had attraction but we share a lot of interests, humour etc. Classic friendzone. Still good friends. SO knows her and likes her.
2. Also known this one since college, part of same group. Propositioned me in our teens, I wasn’t interested, and I said so clearly. Took a while to recover but we are now good friends. Married to one of my other friends now. SO likes them both.
3. The friend who I had the altercation with about LO. I have known her through work for about nearly 15 years. We hang out outside of work, which SO knows. SO is ambivalent about this friend but doesn’t see her as a threat (rightly).
4. I spoke to you about this one a while ago – I was a friend to her when her marriage fell apart and she got abused by ex-husband. SO did not ever take to her. She turned on me soon after I started out with SO, and I had one of those ‘this is over’ moments. It was then over for good.
There was then one more who I met a year or two into my relationship with SO. I was a bit attracted to her initially and I suspect it was mutual (she was not in my “no” basket at that time – all four of the above always were). But it never turned to anything like limerence. I saw the possibility and took actions to pull back. The attraction faded and now we’ve been friends (for at least 8 years) without a hint of that. SO is not that keen on her. In fact she expresses more reservations about this friend than she does about my LO.
LaR,
“Leave them to it a good amount of the time – it’s their choice and within their power to change.”
What if you start to lose respect for them based on their inability to change? (These are just hypothetical questions.)
“OK – you may not agree with me here but I don’t think it really works like that. The woman very often does the picking by making initial moves to show some interest. ”
Sometimes, but sometimes not. I remember a guy asking me out after a sports meetup and I think I ‘d said maybe 5 words to him. I didn’t give him any signals. And then sometimes you feel like you’re practically waving a red flag out in front of the guy. HELLO! I’m OVER HERE! There’s this myth that women have more power in dating. They don’t.
“SO gave me some mixed signals after we first went out. We’d both done our bit on the ratchets before that. But then she seemed to go colder … so much so that I almost gave up”
I’m not sure what you mean by “going colder” but one of the best pieces of advice I ever heard … a man who is truly interested isn’t going to put himself in a position to lose a woman.
“I had some resistance to that from SO – she wanted to pay her way. ”
Maybe she didn’t want to feel obligated. I have read on some other sites that some men think a woman will say yes to a date just to get a nice meal out of it. I have … never done that. Because even if the meal is nice, I still have to make conversation, which is tedious and laborious if you don’t like the person.
“I agree – even as a man, you can just tell. I’ve got one male friend who used to be like that. But he aged quite quickly (lost his hair etc) and he lost all that confidence and ability with women with it.”
Are you saying that his success with women was all based on his appearance? Obviously, it helps to be handsome, but I’ve also seen average-looking guys do fine with women. If they can approach, chat up, get the number/ask out. And at one of my past places of employers … a guy who was attractive and friendly was talked about among the women. A lot. 🙂 The one who was drop-dead gorgeous and chilly/arrogant … didn’t get that much mention.
“He’s married, but in the earlier years with her, that didn’t stop his pursuit of others.”
So he stopped because he thinks he’s not attractive anymore? Did he talk to you about these extra-marital dalliances? Would you drop a male friend who was having an affair?
” I assumed that you meant I could (in theory) give you encouragement to try again with him. ”
I was half-kidding. Part of me thinks I called it off too soon, and another part of me thinks: Does it matter when I called it off? It was going nowhere. But I do wonder if he ever thinks about me. Or did he move quickly?
[“but the last time there were (not with my LO, with a male friend) … I didn’t really care. And he didn’t seem to. Or didn’t say he did. I did nothing to change my behavior to curb the comments.”]
“Yes – your example is like what I meant about my case.”
I really didn’t care what my co-workers thought of me a that job. Tbh, not once it was pretty obvious nothing would happen with my LO.
“Need to try harder 🙂”
Well … it depends on how chesty she is. Tbh. 🙂
“If/when we no longer work together, I might think that I want NC to end the LE. If that happens, I will disclose as well (but without expectation of her telling me anything back – and that’s crucial).”
I highly recommend not doing that. There’s no need to. You wrote yourself you’re past the worst of the LE. And you were already able to put distance in the friendship without telling her. Don’t disclose your feelings to another woman if you have an SO. I know that sounds totally hypocritical of me. And why tell her at this point if you don’t want an answer? I don’t think you’re being honest with yourself. I think it would be to get an answer. And I don’t know your LO … but, no, if it were me, I wouldn’t want to know.
” I will explain why I need NC. ”
But if you’re not working together anymore (in this scenario) … just do a slow fade. It’s totally common with former co-workers. You wrote you’re not as close as you used to be, anyway.
“I know a few people that work on a principle of 3 failed attempts to schedule (or even 3 consecutive initiations of contact) and then give up.”
Sometimes you don’t even need that many times. For example, that one new friend … she was supposed to get back to me with dates/times to do something. Implied it would be soon (as in a day or two, or so I thought). It’s been over a week. I think it’s rude. If she doesn’t know yet, that’s fine, but at least shoot me a quick text to tell me. Sometimes the signs are there. It’s very similar to early dating.
“It’s a shame, as she was a rock for me in my previous LE and was the only person I confided in about that.”
That is too bad. It’s hard to find someone to confide in, especially about limerence. When someone reacts badly, sometimes it is something we did. Or sometimes it’s their personal stuff that’s triggered that has little or nothing to do with us. Or sometimes it’s both. It sounds like it’s probably the second one with her.
“So as to talk specifics, here are the examples of the four close female friends”
Sorry. You won’t like my answer here … but four close female friends … that’s too many. Maybe one or two you’ve had forever. But not attempts to make new ones. A man and a woman going out together, alone, one-on-one, is too much like a date. And I’m assuming that when you hung out with your LO, it felt like a date. Or you were excited about it like you would be for a date. (I realize we’re not talking about her directly. This was an example.)
I won’t make any effort to make new male friends. At work is fine. In a group is fine. But not one-on-one, outside of the group or work.
Marcia,
“What if you start to lose respect for them based on their inability to change?”
If that happens too much, then it’s problematic. It can help to try and put yourself in their shoes and think about why they do it … but that does have its limits.
“I remember a guy asking me out after a sports meetup and I think I ‘d said maybe 5 words to him. I didn’t give him any signals.”
OK, but what’s worse – having to reject lots of propositions like that, or men being too inhibited to try at all? I think your frustration is at men’s inability to decode the signals … at not knowing when the signals are friendly vs FRIENDLY. I admit I struggle with that, and see lots of it in the stories of other men on this site.
“I’m not sure what you mean by “going colder” but one of the best pieces of advice I ever heard … a man who is truly interested isn’t going to put himself in a position to lose a woman.”
By colder I meant not initiating messages mainly.
And that is good advice.
“I have read on some other sites that some men think a woman will say yes to a date just to get a nice meal out of it.”
Sounds icky to me, if that’s their only motivation.
“Are you saying that his success with women was all based on his appearance?”
A lot of it was (in his mind)
“And at one of my past places of employers … a guy who was attractive and friendly was talked about among the women. A lot.”
What about if they’re averagely attractive but very friendly? Is that person likely to be liked by the women, but friendzoned?
“Did he talk to you about these extra-marital dalliances?”
Yes. And sometimes we (me and other mutual male friends) even saw the dalliances happen.
“Would you drop a male friend who was having an affair?”
That’s a big question. By ‘drop’, do you mean dispose of him as a friend, or do you mean tell the partner what’s going on? I’m assuming the second one for the rest of my answer. (But if you mean the first one, my answer is I wouldn’t generally drop him).
We didn’t drop him, though as a group we eventually gave him a lecture, told him to stop it, and said we weren’t interested in seeing or hearing about it anymore.
The only other two examples I can think of, it was the woman having the affairs. In one of those cases (an ongoing affair), she told me about it and asked me not to tell the guy. I told her I’d hold on to it for a while, but to get on with telling him herself, and she did. In the other, me and my ex-gf were friendly with another couple (he was my friend from before, she was hers). They weren’t that serious as a couple then, but we knew she was hooking up with other men without his knowledge. We let it go for a while but then he got offered a big promotion at work that would need him to move a long distance. He was thinking of not taking it because of his relationship. I told him what was going on with hee at that stage. And my ex agreed that we should tell him. (Outcome – he took the promotion and she followed him later, but they didn’t last).
Would you ever drop friends who you knew were having affairs?
“But I do wonder if he ever thinks about me.”
I think its likely he does sometimes, based on all I know about men … but it would be pure speculation to try and say what he thinks.
[“Need to try harder ”]
“Well … it depends on how chesty she is.”
Indeed. I don’t need to try that much harder 🙂
“I don’t think you’re being honest with yourself. I think it would be to get an answer.'”
Thank you for giving me a female perspective. I know you don’t know my LO, but it is very useful to hear what you think anyway.
Maybe I am punking myself about the reasons (for making a hypothetical future disclosure) – thanks for challenging it. I think the wish to know will always nag away. As much as I might say – truthfully nowadays – that I’m OK without an answer, I’d still rather have one. And that applies to pretty much any limerent who didn’t get an answer, in the history of time.
“just do a slow fade. It’s totally common with former co-workers. You wrote you’re not as close as you used to be, anyway.”
Yeah, it could work.
When I asked for space, it possibly created a bit of a vacuum for her. I don’t know if it’s coincidence, but she started to fill her life up more around the same point – new friends, revived old friends etc – she widened her net. And I’m genuinely happy for her that she’s done that – I’ve said as much to her. It leaves less space for me (still some, but less), and that’s also a good thing, even if it doesn’t always feel that way.
“It’s been over a week. I think it’s rude.”
Is she one of those people – we all know them – who either replies in five minutes or five months?
“If she doesn’t know yet, that’s fine, but at least shoot me a quick text to tell me.”
Here’s something that baffles me. I’d be interested if you feel the same. I can never get my head around how many people out there think that saying NOTHING is more polite than saying NO. Even down to if I email someone at work requesting them to collaborate on something, or complete a task. Acceptable answers: ‘Yes’, ‘No’, ‘I’m really busy at the moment but I’ll respond by next week’. Unacceptable answers: No answer, any unclear or ambiguous answer.
I know I gave a work example but it could apply equally to friendships or dating.
“Sorry. You won’t like my answer here … but four close female friends … that’s too many.”
It’s ok – we have talked this point out so much that I could practically write your answer for you by now 😀
“And I’m assuming that when you hung out with your LO, it felt like a date. Or you were excited about it like you would be for a date. (I realize we’re not talking about her directly. This was an example.)”
Yes, with LO it always felt like a date. With any of those other women I listed, it truly never felt like a date. I’d tried to steer away from talking about LO in that part of our discussion, because I can’t defend that as a ‘friendship’ (from an SO’s point of view). But I can defend at least three of those others as legit platonic friends.
But so we don’t spin in loops – I do understand your position here. You wouldn’t want to date a man who has close female friends, and that’s entirely fair / your choice.
LaR,
“If that happens too much, then it’s problematic. It can help to try and put yourself in their shoes and think about why they do it … but that does have its limits.”
But what do you do in that instance? I ask because I think a woman’s attraction for a man can be eroded by loss of respect. I’m not sure it works the same way for men. But are there things a woman could do or say that would make you reach your limit and want to bail? (Things that you would learn about her over time. Like no boundaries with people.)
“OK, but what’s worse – having to reject lots of propositions like that, or men being too inhibited to try at all? ”
I wasn’t offended/bothered that he asked, but if I’d wanted him to make a move, I would have tried to let him know. Him asking didn’t create an opportunity.
“I think your frustration is at men’s inability to decode the signals … at not knowing when the signals are friendly vs FRIENDLY. I admit I struggle with that, and see lots of it in the stories of other men on this site.”
No, my frustration is the same as anyone’s, male or female. Sometimes the ones you want don’t want you. Or want you a little bit but aren’t willing to follow through (my LO). Just because a woman signals interest to a guy doesn’t mean anything will happen.
“By colder I meant not initiating messages mainly.”
I might have done that, too, depending on the context. I kind of sit back and watch what the guy does in the beginning. Again, it’s based on context and interest level.
“And that is good advice.”
Especially if you met on a dating site. If a man isn’t making his interest known and keeping up communication and trying to get the woman on dates …he’s not that interested. Because he knows another guy she’s talking to on the site could swoop in at any time.
“Sounds icky to me, if that’s their only motivation.”
It’s VERY icky.
“A lot of it was (in his mind)”
That’s not what I’m talking about then. I mean a guy you can tell does well. He walks into the room and you can tell. And if I were to go out with him, I wouldn’t need him to brag about his other options. I’d already know he had them.
“What about if they’re averagely attractive but very friendly? Is that person likely to be liked by the women, but friendzoned?”
I’d say if he’s good at talking to women and has some charisma (bonus points if he can make women laugh), he’s got a decent shot at not being friendzoned. Isn’t the same true for women? I had a girlfriend when I was growing up who I would describe as cute. Cutish. Not gorgeous by any means. But she was good at talking to guys, was flirty and outgoing. Did very well with guys. Not that appearance doesn’t help, but wouldn’t you say another big chunk of it is personality? Some people kind of draw others to them.
“And sometimes we (me and other mutual male friends) even saw the dalliances happen.”
Was this at work?
“That’s a big question. By ‘drop’, do you mean dispose of him as a friend, or do you mean tell the partner what’s going on? I’m assuming the second one for the rest of my answer. (But if you mean the first one, my answer is I wouldn’t generally drop him).”
No, I meant drop as a friend. Or distance yourself. I wouldn’t tell a partner. If this was, for example, a close female friend. My loyalty is to her. I wouldn’t encourage her to have the affair, but I’m not getting involved in her marriage.
“We didn’t drop him, though as a group we eventually gave him a lecture, told him to stop it, and said we weren’t interested in seeing or hearing about it anymore.”
That’s fair enough. For me, it would depend on the situation. A close friend I’d known for a while … I would suspect we’d talk about it. Who is this “group” you’re referring to? I can’t imagine being so open about having an affair, a whole group of people would know.
“I told her I’d hold on to it for a while, but to get on with telling him herself, and she did. ”
By why is that for you to tell her?
” We let it go for a while but then he got offered a big promotion at work that would need him to move a long distance. He was thinking of not taking it because of his relationship. I told him what was going on with her at that stage. And my ex agreed that we should tell him. ”
I don’t think I would have done that. I mean, if I’m your SO, and the woman is my friend and the man is yours. Again, I would encourage her to be honest with him, but I don’t think I’d do it for her.
“Would you ever drop friends who you knew were having affairs?”
I don’t know that I’ve ever had one who has having an affair while we were friends. I’ve had friends who had them in the past and told me about them. It came up conversation after getting to know them. And, no, I didn’t drop them.
“I think its likely he does sometimes, based on all I know about men”
Yeah, but it what way? (I know you can’t actually tell me.) I occasionally will think about, for example, that guy I went out with a couple of times. So he does pop into my head every blue moon, but I have no interest in him now. At the time, when he fell off the planet, it stung. And I think I mentioned he did reach out months later … in a very, very low-level-effort way, but I didn’t respond. I have zero regrets about not responding.
“Indeed. I don’t need to try that much harder 🙂”
If that’s the case, why haven’t you felt anything before? 🙂 (I’m being silly with this.)
“Thank you for giving me a female perspective. I know you don’t know my LO, but it is very useful to hear what you think anyway.”
The only thing I could see telling her (and I still don’t recommend it) is that you need to back away because you’ve become interested in her/attracted to her. I WOULD NOT disclose “feelings” beyond that point. On the receiving end, it feels so heavy, and all of a sudden you feel responsible for responding/understanding/caring for the other person’s feelings … and it’s a responsibility you didn’t ask for. I’d only have a “feelings” conversation once I knew the other person was interested. And we’d dated for a bit.
“I think the wish to know will always nag away. ”
I totally understand. I just think that if you’re not going to do anything about it after you disclose … what’s the point? And of course we’re getting into a grey zone because you have an SO. I would definitely consider a disclosure going over the line.
” And I’m genuinely happy for her that she’s done that – I’ve said as much to her. It leaves less space for me (still some, but less), and that’s also a good thing, even if it doesn’t always feel that way.”
I understand that, too. Part of you probably still wishes you could be a bigger part of her life.
“Is she one of those people – we all know them – who either replies in five minutes or five months?”
I hate the latter. And I do think it’s rude. No, she doesn’t do that. She’ll respond the same day or the next. I don’t expect people to have an ongoing, daily text conversation with me … usually one of you reaches out, you text back and forth a bit, and then things peter out until one of you reaches out again. But to have someone take several days to respond (what that guy friend was doing!) … and he initiated the text conversation! … it’s rude.
“Acceptable answers: ‘Yes’, ‘No’, ‘I’m really busy at the moment but I’ll respond by next week’. Unacceptable answers: No answer, any unclear or ambiguous answer.”
ITA. That drives my crazy. No, she said yes and said she would get back to me after checking on something else had to do. What she needed to check on was happening in a couple of days. This is after a cancellation and then a couple of reschedules by her for the first thing we did together. I’ve kind of lost interest in putting more effort in (would be the same if we were dating). She’s showing a pattern.
“It’s ok – we have talked this point out so much that I could practically write your answer for you by now 😀”
OMG! Am I becoming that predictable?! 🙂
“With any of those other women I listed, it truly never felt like a date. ”
I believe you. I just know from my (admittedly) little corner of the world … I’ve only had two guy friends who didn’t eventually start making comments or disclose some kind of interest. The first one I liked, and he didn’t feel the same. The second one never said anything if he did, and I didn’t because I thought of him as a friend. So that really means only one where there wasn’t (expressed) interest from me or him.
Marcia,
“But what do you do in that instance? I ask because I think a woman’s attraction for a man can be eroded by loss of respect.”
I’d try to talk it out before it got that far. You can try and nip things in the bud by standing up for yourself and what you need. I’d also take steps to protect myself. SO’s family dynamics can get a bit circus-like. I have long since made it clear that I’m not up for being an actor in the circus.
If it did go too far, I might be in the territory of wanting to give ultimatums. Those rarely land well though, and the person has got to be prepared to follow through on them and/or suffer the consequences of their SO really not liking them.
Or, of course, we can go another less advisable route of finding a shiny new object to distract ourselves …
“But are there things a woman could do or say that would make you reach your limit and want to bail? (Things that you would learn about her over time. Like no boundaries with people.)”
A different issue that’s happened to me both ways historically is about how much as a couple you ‘talk out’ relationship issues. I had an ex who just refused to do it at all. I had another who wanted to do it all the time and (I felt) ‘make problems’ that weren’t really there. Neither way was/is great or attractive. To me, short but constructive discussions to iron things out are good, but not all the time. I shut down if it happens too much.
“No, my frustration is the same as anyone’s, male or female. Sometimes the ones you want don’t want you. Or want you a little bit but aren’t willing to follow through (my LO).”
It’s human nature, but that doesn’t make it any less frustrating.
“I might have done that, too, depending on the context. I kind of sit back and watch what the guy does in the beginning. Again, it’s based on context and interest level.”
It needs a bit of give and take, but again as the man I expect to have to lead a bit. I maybe wasn’t doing that enough for a while with SO. I got what turned out to be a false impression not to press too hard.
“I mean a guy you can tell does well. He walks into the room and you can tell. And if I were to go out with him, I wouldn’t need him to brag about his other options. I’d already know he had them.”
I know the type you mean!
“Isn’t the same true for women? I had a girlfriend when I was growing up who I would describe as cute. Cutish. Not gorgeous by any means. But she was good at talking to guys, was flirty and outgoing. Did very well with guys. Not that appearance doesn’t help, but wouldn’t you say another big chunk of it is personality? Some people kind of draw others to them.”
I am 100% with you. Women who are ‘classically gorgeous’ but vain about it don’t attract me at all. I’m far more likely to go for ‘cute’ women with a lot of humour and charisma. The rest takes care of itself if they have that combination.
[“And sometimes we (me and other mutual male friends) even saw the dalliances happen.”]
“Was this at work?”
No, socially. I didn’t work with this guy.
“Who is this “group” you’re referring to? I can’t imagine being so open about having an affair, a whole group of people would know.”
A group of five men. We know each other from college and socialise together. Some of the dalliances occurred at said socials and were friends of friends. They weren’t affairs as such – more one night stands.
[“I told her I’d hold on to it for a while, but to get on with telling him herself, and she did.”]
“By why is that for you to tell her?”
Because her SO was my friend first, before I knew her. She was asking me to keep it from my friend that she was cheating on him.
[I told him what was going on with her at that stage. And my ex agreed that we should tell him.]
“I don’t think I would have done that. I mean, if I’m your SO, and the woman is my friend and the man is yours.”
It was tricky. It looked like being the difference between him taking or leaving a great job opportunity. As his friend, I thought he deserved the facts to help him make the decision.
“And, no, I didn’t drop them.”
The thing is, whether they do or don’t have affairs has little bearing on their value as a friend. Unless they treat friends in a similar way.
“Yeah, but it what way? (I know you can’t actually tell me.)”
There’s only one way to try and find out isn’t there? (And you don’t want to do it).
“The only thing I could see telling her (and I still don’t recommend it) is that you need to back away because you’ve become interested in her/attracted to her.”
Yes – that’s all I’d say. Nothing soppy or more awkward. We are talking pure hypotheticals here anyway. The context was me saying I couldn’t ghost her without a reason. This will only ever become relevant if I ever reach a stage where I feel NC is my only route.
“all of a sudden you feel responsible for responding/understanding/caring for the other person’s feelings … and it’s a responsibility you didn’t ask for.”
I know all that, but it helps to hear reminders.
“I just think that if you’re not going to do anything about it after you disclose … what’s the point? And of course we’re getting into a grey zone because you have an SO. I would definitely consider a disclosure going over the line.”
All of that was enough to stop me disclosing even when it was at its worst. There was literally no good outcome to disclosing. Only the selfish reasons of offloading what I was holding onto and the prospect of (maybe, with no guarantee) finding out if it was reciprocated. I felt it back so strongly at times that I wanted to know, to check if I was going mad or not.
“I understand that, too. Part of you probably still wishes you could be a bigger part of her life.”
I know you think I’m loose with the term ‘my person’, but we did make each other into something close to one of those for a while. And as much as I know that wasn’t an advisable thing to do … when you step back from something like that, there is some grieving for it to be done. The wish to be a bigger part of her life has probably been the biggest struggle of the whole thing, and it still persists to an extent.
“But to have someone take several days to respond (what that guy friend was doing!) … and he initiated the text conversation! … it’s rude.”
Yes. Why do that? Just WHY? Is it a kind of ‘dangling himself’ because he thinks it will make you want to chase him??
“No, she said yes and said she would get back to me after checking on something else had to do. What she needed to check on was happening in a couple of days.”
It comes back to just following through on commitments. And just being more honest if the answer is ‘no’ or ‘not now’.
“OMG! Am I becoming that predictable?!”
Harsh word. But you have been nothing if not consistent on this point that partnered guys shouldn’t have close female friends. I have tugged at this rope a lot of times but you haven’t budged 💪🙂
“So that really means only one where there wasn’t (expressed) interest from me or him.”
And I’ve only got/had two close woman friends where there has never been any of: expressed interest from their side; me knowing that I have interest; it ending in some weird and hard-to-explain way. So only two pass the same test you’re applying to yours.
LaR,
” I have long since made it clear that I’m not up for being an actor in the circus.”
By doing what? Limiting your time with them?
What if she told you something she did in her past that totally changed your opinion of her? (Again, these are hypotheticals.)
“A different issue that’s happened to me both ways historically is about how much as a couple you ‘talk out’ relationship issues. I had an ex who just refused to do it at all. I had another who wanted to do it all the time and (I felt) ‘make problems’ that weren’t really there. Neither way was/is great or attractive. ”
You need a happy medium, but I couldn’t deal well with someone who wouldn’t talk about it at all. I have family like that, and you can never improve the relationship because they won’t talk about it. On the flip side, I watch this one dating coach who is mister “work on yourself/self improvement” and though I like his message … I think he’d be A LOT if you dated him. He suggests before sleeping together the couple sign a contract (or at least read aloud the terms and agree to them) to be exclusive and monogamous. There are several tenets to it.
“It needs a bit of give and take, but again as the man I expect to have to lead a bit.”
I think the man should lead in the first few weeks. But then it moves into being more reciprocal. I just don’t want to feel like I’m driving the bus.
” I got what turned out to be a false impression not to press too hard.”
That can be a turn off, tbh. It’s a tricky, fine line. Showing interest but not showing too much.
“I am 100% with you. Women who are ‘classically gorgeous’ but vain about it don’t attract me at all. I’m far more likely to go for ‘cute’ women with a lot of humour and charisma. The rest takes care of itself if they have that combination.”
I just mean she was personable and friendly. A separate topic is that my friend was very girl-next-door. No, I don’t understand the fascination with that type. 🙂
“Some of the dalliances occurred at said socials and were friends of friends. ”
That is a little tacky. Couldn’t they have done it and not been so obvious?
“Because her SO was my friend first, before I knew her. She was asking me to keep it from my friend that she was cheating on him.”
I’m confused. I thought you wrote their relationship wasn’t that serious.
And she would discuss dating other men in front of you and ask you not to say anything to him?
“It was tricky. It looked like being the difference between him taking or leaving a great job opportunity. As his friend, I thought he deserved the facts to help him make the decision.”
I mean … shouldn’t he really be talking to her about it?
Idk. I’ve never been put in that position.
“The thing is, whether they do or don’t have affairs has little bearing on their value as a friend. Unless they treat friends in a similar way.”
I agree. That being said, someone who’s bragging about it or having multiple or repeated affairs on an unsuspecting SO … that might change my opinion of the person.
“There’s only one way to try and find out isn’t there? (And you don’t want to do it).”
No, I don’t. I fear I’ve made the same level of “dent” in his life that that guy I went out with twice did in mine.
“The context was me saying I couldn’t ghost her without a reason. This will only ever become relevant if I ever reach a stage where I feel NC is my only route.”
I would just do the slow fade. Or stop reaching out yourself. Only respond it she reaches out. Let things kind of die.
“Only the selfish reasons of offloading what I was holding onto and the prospect of (maybe, with no guarantee) finding out if it was reciprocated.”
I just don’t understand what you partnereds want to do with that information. It doesn’t make sense to me to even bother trying to open that door.
“And as much as I know that wasn’t an advisable thing to do … when you step back from something like that, there is some grieving for it to be done. ”
That would be true even if limerence wasn’t involved. It hurts to lose that kind of closeness. And from my experience, can take a while to fully process.
“Yes. Why do that? Just WHY? Is it a kind of ‘dangling himself’ because he thinks it will make you want to chase him??”
I don’t know what he is doing. I really thought we were mutually, tacitly doing the slow fade. And out of nowhere, he texts me, saying I’d “abandoned the friendship.” (I’m paraphrasing.) I dodged his accusation (I don’t really wish to litigate that at this point) but made some general conversation … days went by before he responded. I feel like he’s playing games.
“It comes back to just following through on commitments. And just being more honest if the answer is ‘no’ or ‘not now’.”
I heard from her. Idk. The older I get, the less interest I have in acquaintance-level friendships, and I think, based on what’s happened so far, that’s probably where things are headed. I’m not angry or anything; I just don’t know how much effort I want to put into it.
” I have tugged at this rope a lot of times but you haven’t budged 💪🙂”
See below
“And I’ve only got/had two close woman friends where there has never been any of: expressed interest from their side; me knowing that I have interest; it ending in some weird and hard-to-explain way. So only two pass the same test you’re applying to yours.”
THEN WHY DO YOU KEEP TRYING TO BE FRIENDS WITH WOMEN?! Yes, I’m shouting. 🙂 Does a piano have to drop on your head? 🙂 And in my little corner of the world, I’ve only had interest in 2 male friends. One from HIGH SCHOOL. That’s how long ago it was. (Huge crush; he was a group friend but he’d call me every so often, we never hung out alone.) And one from twenty years ago. I didn’t have a crush on him but we hooked up. I’m not entirely sure why I suggested that we do that, looking back. 🙂 My point is … it’s rare. As a general rule, I can be friends with men. I avoid ones I’m attracted to. But your side seems to have other ideas.
Go ahead. Yell at me. 🙂
Marcia,
“By doing what? Limiting your time with them?”
Some of that, but there’s a line to be walked there between self-protection and not being unsupportive to SO.
As examples, I’ve walked out when they all kicked off before, said I was going for a walk and they should sort it out between themselves. I’ve also (fairly gently) confronted the mother about the effect she has on her adult children (Though for completeness, I should add that made the sum total of no difference.)
“What if she told you something she did in her past that totally changed your opinion of her? (Again, these are hypotheticals.)”
In reality, I believe I’m well past the point in the relationship where that would happen. On the hypothetical side, do you have some example in mind of something you’ve either experienced or know about? It’s no problem if not, but I feel you’re driving at something that I’m not quite getting.
“He suggests before sleeping together the couple sign a contract (or at least read aloud the terms and agree to them) to be exclusive and monogamous.”
I smiled here thinking how that would work if things got unexpectedly ‘fruity’ between two people and then one of them was like “hold up, if you can just sign this contract now ….”. Quite a mood killer 🙂 But maybe that’s this dating coach guy’s point?
“I just mean she was personable and friendly.”
It goes a LONG way.
“A separate topic is that my friend was very girl-next-door. No, I don’t understand the fascination with that type. 🙂”
It depends on what you mean by girl next door. If you mean they seem quite ordinary and then the man suddenly finds out that they’re not … that they have a totally different ‘side’ … well, I think that’s where the fascination lies.
“That is a little tacky. Couldn’t they have done it and not been so obvious?”
I think at one point he liked to flaunt it. I do think he’s stopped it and has now been faithful to his wife for many years.
[“She was asking me to keep it from my friend that she was cheating on him.”]
“I’m confused. I thought you wrote their relationship wasn’t that serious.”
I originally gave two different examples. The couple in the second example weren’t serious, but this point was about the first example – a woman cheating within a marriage (to my male friend) and wanting to leave him, who told me about it but wanted me to not repeat it. I told her to get on with telling her husband, which she did. I said that I’d probably feel I have to tell him if she didn’t do it within a certain timescale (she did – they broke up). In terms of my friendship loyalties, it’s important to say that it was him who was always my closer friend of the two of them.
“That being said, someone who’s bragging about it or having multiple or repeated affairs on an unsuspecting SO … that might change my opinion of the person.”
That’s how my friend was – the one we took to task as a group.
“I just don’t understand what you partnereds want to do with that information. It doesn’t make sense to me to even bother trying to open that door.”
You’re looking at it from a removed position, from where what you’re saying makes total logical sense. I had that part of me going too – that’s why I never did disclose. There WAS never anything useful I could do with the information. But you also know what the limerent brain is like – it just forces you to fixate on the LO in loops and you just WANT TO KNOW. When I bring in rational logic, I know it was better not to know – it was pure lim-brain emotional logic that told me otherwise.
“It hurts to lose that kind of closeness. And from my experience, can take a while to fully process.”
It’s a big part of why I’m still hanging around here.
“I really thought we were mutually, tacitly doing the slow fade. And out of nowhere, he texts me, saying I’d “abandoned the friendship.” (I’m paraphrasing.) I dodged his accusation (I don’t really wish to litigate that at this point) but made some general conversation … days went by before he responded. I feel like he’s playing games.”
I’d say it shows he’s hurt from the rejection. But from what you’ve told me, he has absolutely no right to play games with you. He’s trying to achieve something in his own head, but I can’t figure out what. People tend to externalise blame when they won’t take accountability for their own actions. I don’t see what outcome that text of his can lead to other than an argument, or what you did in dodging the accusation.
“The older I get, the less interest I have in acquaintance-level friendships, and I think, based on what’s happened so far, that’s probably where things are headed.”
Try not to pre-judge. But I’d also say only put in any/some effort if it feels like a worthwhile thing to do, or at least worth testing what happens if you kind of match her effort level for a while.
“Does a piano have to drop on your head? 🙂”
🤣🤣🎹🤯
“Go ahead. Yell at me. 🙂”
I’m not gonna yell. 🙂
I’ve not actively sought, or gained, any new female friends since the stuff with LO started to mess me up.
If you’re wondering why men in general don’t get this point, it’s probably because we don’t always think with logic or morals … we don’t always want to do entirely the ‘right thing’ … and temptation is a very real thing. We are not always the best versions of ourselves that we might wish we were on another day. When we end up in a mess like this LE has created for me, it (hopefully) causes us to get older and wiser and think it isn’t worth putting ourselves through again. I got off lightly with my previous LO – and don’t think learning occurred then.
LaR,
“I’ve also (fairly gently) confronted the mother about the effect she has on her adult children (Though for completeness, I should add that made the sum total of no difference.)”
Those kinds of “deep talks” often lead to nowhere. In the movies, they always lead to some big, cathartic moment of revelation and change/growth, after which everyone hugs it out and gets along better. It doesn’t work that way in real life. I guess that was my point … I know you were talking about the mother, but even with an SO or family member or friend … they are who they are.
“It’s no problem if not, but I feel you’re driving at something that I’m not quite getting.”
I wasn’t really. But off the top of my head … there’s sexual stuff he could tell me he’d done that would maybe ick me out. Or that would undermine my confidence because those previous adventures topped anything I thought I could offer.
“I smiled here thinking how that would work if things got unexpectedly ‘fruity’ between two people and then one of them was like “hold up, if you can just sign this contract now ….”. Quite a mood killer 🙂 But maybe that’s this dating coach guy’s point?”
I don’t think he suggests bringing it up right when you’re both about to take your pants off 🙂
Ok, I pulled it up:
Before sex, you would say to each other: I agree to explore the process of getting to know you with the intent to declare something serious within the next 3 to 6 months; I agree to be monogamous sexually while we’re having regular sex together; I agree to not actively seek to meet and date others while we’re in the dating process, including taking down my profile; I agree to speak up if this isn’t working for me versus pulling back or ghosting; I agree to invest regular time in the process of getting to know each you, which looks like spending 2 to 5 days a week together doing shared activities, hobbies and mutual interests, spending time with family and friends and team work building skills both in our personal and professional life.
Now, I think you SHOULD have some kind of conversation before you first have sex (if you’re looking for a long-term situation), and if I were to start dating again with that intention, I would. Because I’ve been burned before by assuming or not discussing. But the above “contract” is too much. There has to be a happy medium between saying nothing and over discussing/squelching all the joy out of it.
“It depends on what you mean by girl next door. ”
Sweet, nice. Non-threatening. Traditional.
“If you mean they seem quite ordinary and then the man suddenly finds out that they’re not … that they have a totally different ‘side’ … well, I think that’s where the fascination lies.”
What? That she gets secretly freaky? I don’t get it. I share no such fascination with boys next door.
“I think at one point he liked to flaunt it. I do think he’s stopped it and has now been faithful to his wife for many years.”
So he finally grew up?
“– a woman cheating within a marriage (to my male friend) and wanting to leave him, who told me about it but wanted me to not repeat it. I told her to get on with telling her husband, which she did. In terms of my friendship loyalties, it’s important to say that it was him who was always my closer friend of the two of them.”
Oh, wow. She put you in a REALLY awkward position. She sounds kind of messy.
“That’s how my friend was – the one we took to task as a group.”
My one friend who’d had an affair … she was very regretful of it. It wasn’t something she took lightly.
“You’re looking at it from a removed position”
Actually, I’m looking at it from the position of the single person who gets disclosed to by a married person. My last big LO. That was a very selfish thing for him to do.
“But you also know what the limerent brain is like – it just forces you to fixate on the LO in loops and you just WANT TO KNOW. ”
I certainly understand wanting to know. Of course I do.
“It’s a big part of why I’m still hanging around here.”
But is this about the limerence or about the connection/closeness? Or maybe you can’t separate the two. When I’ve lost “go-to” friends, “ride or dies,” as they call them … it’s taken me a good year to fully process.
“He’s trying to achieve something in his own head, but I can’t figure out what.”
That’s what I’d like to know.
“I don’t see what outcome that text of his can lead to other than an argument, or what you did in dodging the accusation.”
“Accuse” might be a strong word, but he was definitely shifting the blaming to me. I thought maybe he was subtly trying to gaslight me (to an extent). Because I had to think about it for a minute: about when I’d last heard from him/seen him, etc. Answer: It’s been a while on both counts. I also don’t like how he’s not being all that direct. He’s dancing around things. And there’s some passive/aggressiveness in there, too. I thought he was a more evolved person than this because it’s how he talks about himself/presents himself, but in reality he’s … kind of a baby man.
“But I’d also say only put in any/some effort if it feels like a worthwhile thing to do, or at least worth testing what happens if you kind of match her effort level for a while.”
I’d be willing to do that. Although I struggle with managing my expectations of people.
[“Does a piano have to drop on your head? 🙂”]
“🤣🤣🎹🤯”
Several pianos! 🙂
“If you’re wondering why men in general don’t get this point, it’s probably because we don’t always think with logic or morals … we don’t always want to do entirely the ‘right thing’ … and temptation is a very real thing.”
That is the most honest thing you’ve written. Seriously.
As a general rule (and I’m making a sweeping generalization here), when a partnered man (or woman) tries to have an opposite-sex “friendship” …it’s because they want the chills and thrills of a side situation. Even if they don’t intend to show up at the Motel 6. They’ll do as much as they can get away with.
Marcia,
“but even with an SO or family member or friend … they are who they are.”
I’d go with that. Family members are part of a package and it’s less easy to make choices. But with an SO or a friend it basically comes down to (though I am over simplifying) – accept them as they are, or get out. That sounds brutal, but I agree we’re on a road to nowhere with trying to change people.
“But off the top of my head … there’s sexual stuff he could tell me he’d done that would maybe ick me out. Or that would undermine my confidence because those previous adventures topped anything I thought I could offer.”
I could see how that could be a problem in the earlier stages of relationships. That kind of comparison exercise wouldn’t usually end well.
[Dating coach ‘contract’ idea]
I understand why your past experiences make you want to try a different way when you start out dating someone new. Whatever else I say now, I’m not trivialising that.
But I was glad you got to the point of saying that it was too much, and a medium way is needed. Trying to set all those (of the coach’s) rules about what you intend to become is taking the spontaneity out of it. I know people who’ve ruined early dates by getting ahead of themselves (with a ‘vision’). That doesn’t mean you (plural) can’t say something to indicate desire to commit properly if you genuinely feel that way. But you have to say it in the knowledge that it might scare them, and be prepared to deal with that.
To say “I agree to be monogamous sexually while we’re having regular sex together” before having sex, implies you think sex is on the menu. Which is kind of a strange conversation before it happens?! To decide how many days a week you want to spend together and doing what, while still getting to know each other, is getting WAY ahead.
If I seem to be giving this guy’s advice a tough rap, it’s because I am struggling with it. On the flipside, I will say I think what he’s describing sound like good goals for a relationship. But say if I’m playing in a sports match, I can’t predict the outcome at the start. Nor can the other players, and I can’t expect that of them. I can have *ambitions* for how the match will go, but I can’t make it go that way.
“What? That she gets secretly freaky? I don’t get it.”
Yeah, I guess it can be fun finding out that people who seem straight at first glance have a more risque side. Personally I am not too hung up on the girl next door type – just trying to think what the cliché is all about.
“I share no such fascination with boys next door.”
You’ve mentioned Adam Lambert a few times … so I think you definiely prefer a guy who is more ‘out there’ than the boy next door?
“So he finally grew up?”
Yeah – but taking this point full circle, only when he felt he’d lost his looks. Alternatively, maybe he didn’t, but just never told us anything again after we said we didn’t want to hear any more.
“She sounds kind of messy.”
She was. She’s on marriage number 3 now (my friend was 1, the affair partner 2).
“Actually, I’m looking at it from the position of the single person who gets disclosed to by a married person. My last big LO. That was a very selfish thing for him to do.”
You are strong on this point. Question – do you think you did anything to encourage his disclosure – any ratchets?
Talking to you about has definitely made me think much more about what disclosure is like from the recipient’s side. You’ve made me realise there is a lot more to it than meets the eye. I always knew at my core that disclosure to my LO was a bad plan – enough to stop it happening – but I can understand all the reasons much better now. So thanks 🙂. The other bit that’s very useful is appreciating the difference between a simple disclosure of “I’m attracted to you so I need to back off” and anything deeper where you pile a lot of pressure on the person.
I used to talk to another poster on here who gave me the opposite view – that she’d want the limerent in my position to be honest with her, no matter what. She wouldn’t shift from that position. Everyone’s different I guess.
To clarify, this disclosure stuff is NOT something I’m doing anything about anytime soon. It’s in as comfortable a place as I can hold it while all remains equal at work.
“I certainly understand wanting to know. Of course I do.”
Yes. Again there is a key difference between the ‘want’ drives, and what’s actually a good idea to do.
But is this about the limerence or about the “connection/closeness? Or maybe you can’t separate the two.”
I’m not sure I completely can. It’s all wrapped up. It’s a big question to try and figure out. With more time, I should be able to.
“When I’ve lost “go-to” friends, “ride or dies,” as they call them … it’s taken me a good year to fully process.”
Part of the issue is that I haven’t totally lost her in that way. Instead I’m in a long fade. It’s over a year of processing now since I started trying to let go. I don’t want to moan, get down or seek ideas about what to do next about it. I’m in a process already – it just has to run its course now.
“I also don’t like how he’s not being all that direct. He’s dancing around things. And there’s some passive/aggressiveness in there, too.”
I agree with all that. It’s weird. He should have been more grown up, taken it on the chin and either committed to friendship or moved on.
“Several pianos!”
Maybe a whole orchestra?
“That is the most honest thing you’ve written. Seriously.”
I take a while to get to the point. Had you noticed by any chance? 😅.
You’re seeing my thinking/jonesty evolve. it’s different now I’ve put 50%+ of the LE’s strength in the rearview mirror. When someone is right In the middle of it, they’re always trying to justify or come to a version of it they can live with. It *was* at a level for some time (as a mainly work based friendship) where it seemed innocent enough and I didn’t feel I was over lines. BUT I know – and I always did know – *exactly* the moments (3 big ones) when it ramped up. And I did know at the time that I was going further and further over lines.
“it’s because they want the chills and thrills of a side situation. Even if they don’t intend to show up at the Motel 6. They’ll do as much as they can get away with.”
The level each person will go to (how far over lines) is very individual. I didn’t push quite as hard as I thought I could get away with. And I’m glad I didn’t. Some people do a lot less, some a lot more.
LaR,
“But with an SO or a friend it basically comes down to (though I am over simplifying) – accept them as they are, or get out. That sounds brutal, but I agree we’re on a road to nowhere with trying to change people.”
But then how do you ever improve the relationship? Because eventually you’re going to butt heads. It’s human nature. Or you’re going to need something from the other person and they may not be willing to give it/do it.
“I could see how that could be a problem in the earlier stages of relationships. That kind of comparison exercise wouldn’t usually end well.”
I didn’t necessarily mean in the early stages. Are you going to have a conversation about sexual history in the early stages? I suppose you could but it could also come out in dribbles over time. (To be clear, I’m not a fan of talking about sexual history for this very reason, but your side sometimes blurts things out.)
“But you have to say it in the knowledge that it might scare them, and be prepared to deal with that.”
See below
“To say “I agree to be monogamous sexually while we’re having regular sex together” before having sex, implies you think sex is on the menu. ”
It’s all based on context. Say you’ve been dating for a month (this is an example) and things have been building so it seems like you’re heading toward something. Lots of communication, dates, etc. Then you would have the “dtr” (determine the relationship conversation). I think when I did it with the LO who I got serious with, the conversation was as simple as him asking, “Am I your boyfriend?” The only other things I probably should have verified were if that meant we were only seeing/hooking up with each other and also if we were exploring the possibility of things getting serious.
Now, I would never have had that conversation with that guy I went out with. A.) We only went out twice; it was too soon. B.) I hadn’t heard that much from him between dates one and two, so I was fairly sure things probably weren’t going to go anywhere, anyway. Was sex on the table that second night? Yes. But he hadn’t shown me enough/done enough for me to want to do it (unless I was looking for short term). And I wasn’t so overwhelmed by him, I was going to do something stupid. 🙂
“To decide how many days a week you want to spend together and doing what, while still getting to know each other, is getting WAY ahead.”
I agree. The contract is too much.
“But say if I’m playing in a sports match, I can’t predict the outcome at the start. Nor can the other players, and I can’t expect that of them. I can have *ambitions* for how the match will go, but I can’t make it go that way.”
It’s too much. And just from that contract, I can tell he’d be a lot to deal with. A lot of conversations about the relationship. But that’s me. Other women may like that.
“Yeah, I guess it can be fun finding out that people who seem straight at first glance have a more risque side. ”
So I’m watching “DTF St. Louis.” A limited series on HBO. Jason Bateman is in it. I think he’s hot. He’s attractive enough (kind of boy next door) but there also seems to be something underneath all of that. Percolating. 🙂 Nice and cute in an of itself is dull. IMO. And the person has to demonstrate that different side of them before the pants come off. 🙂
“You’ve mentioned Adam Lambert a few times … so I think you definiely prefer a guy who is more ‘out there’ than the boy next door?”
I do think he’s hot, too. He also has lot of charisma as a performer.
“Yeah – but taking this point full circle, only when he felt he’d lost his looks. ”
That’s not a good answer. 🙂 I’d want someone who wanted to be with me because he wanted me and I was a great option, not I was the only option.
“She was. She’s on marriage number 3 now (my friend was 1, the affair partner 2).”
Oh, wow. She married the AP. That’s rare. So I’ve read. And it rarely lasts. All the sizzle dies when you bring things out into the light of day.
“You are strong on this point. Question – do you think you did anything to encourage his disclosure – any ratchets?”
Are you really asking me this?! 🙂 How long have we been talking? 🙂 But the disclosure and the physical stuff that happened were not a surprise. It’s where things were heading. I didn’t know exactly what he was going to say or what he would do, but that they both happened was not a surprise.
And even with LO-lite first contacting me … it wasn’t a complete surprise. I thought there was a possibility he might reach out, thought I was much less sure than with my last big LO.
There’s a build up to this stuff. It doesn’t come out of nowhere.
“I always knew at my core that disclosure to my LO was a bad plan – enough to stop it happening – but I can understand all the reasons much better now. So thanks 🙂. ”
YW. But, to be clear, I’m one person. I can’t definitively tell you whether your LO would want you to disclose or not. I can say, with some certainty, that if you did, the best course of action would be to keep it light and not disclose heavy feelings.
“The other bit that’s very useful is appreciating the difference between a simple disclosure of “I’m attracted to you so I need to back off” and anything deeper where you pile a lot of pressure on the person.”
That’s exactly what it feels like. Pressure. And there’s a part of you that resents it if you don’t feel the same way because you didn’t want the pressure and heaviness and responsibility of their feelings.
“I used to talk to another poster on here who gave me the opposite view – that she’d want the limerent in my position to be honest with her, no matter what. She wouldn’t shift from that position. Everyone’s different I guess.”
Was she single?
“Part of the issue is that I haven’t totally lost her in that way. ”
I meant “lost” in terms of the closeness. Not necessarily the friendship entirely. To recalibrate/adjust to a new normal of a totally different friendship. To come to terms with that. In your case, it might be taking a while because of the limerence.
“I agree with all that. It’s weird. He should have been more grown up, taken it on the chin and either committed to friendship or moved on.”
If he reaches out again, I will probably respond. I’ll be pleasant but non-committal. We have some mutual acquaintances, and it’s possible I will run into him in the future. I don’t want it to be awkward. But I have no interest in a friendship with him anymore.
Will he contact me? Probably. Because I’m not interested in him contacting me. That’s the Universe for you. If you really want to hear from someone, you won’t. 🙂
“I take a while to get to the point. Had you noticed by any chance?”
No, not at all. 🙂 Have you been to a movie recently? They now have 30 minutes of previews. WHEN IS THE MOVIE GOING TO START?! 🙂
” It *was* at a level for some time (as a mainly work based friendship) where it seemed innocent enough and I didn’t feel I was over lines. ”
But weren’t you always attracted to her? Right there: can’t be friends. That’s my personal opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. Would you want your SO hanging out one-on-one and communicating with a guy she was attracted to? That’s a legitimate question; I’m not being sarcastic. (And it’s irrelevant if she’s not a limerent; that’s not the question. :))
“The level each person will go to (how far over lines) is very individual.”
It’s all variations of grey. But grey is still grey.
LaR,
Sorry. I wasn’t clear. You have the DTR before sex. Not the very moment before it. But at some point before sex.
How does that work? Idk.
Marcia,
“But then how do you ever improve the relationship? Because eventually you’re going to butt heads.”
When I say we can’t expect to change a person, I mean at a fundamental level of who they are. But in my experience, you can’t last within a couple without being prepared to adapt to the other person, and needing the same from them. Say you live with the SO and one of you is messy and the other not – you have to find a compromise level of mess than you can both live with. And zillions of other issues like that need to be worked out. It’s boring to talk about, but part of the nitty gritty of a relationship, and if the SO means enough to me, I’m ok with the fact I have to work at stuff like that. I don’t think I could ever find an SO where that wouldn’t happen.
When it comes to butting heads, I think it’s not about pretending it will never happen, but knowing how to work it out with minimal damage when it does. And there are many moving parts to that. I could really ramble on this, but I’ll restrain myself for now.
I think a really important thing to making relationships work is wanting good things for the SO. Not trying to hold them back out of jealousy, fear, competition… but being committed to letting each other develop independently, as well as part of the couple. I think your dating coach guy understands that from what you’ve said.
“It’s human nature. Or you’re going to need something from the other person and they may not be willing to give it/do it.”
There has to be some give, or the couple will fall apart. It’s important that both people feel they can stand up for what they need, without it taking over. There will always be some compromise involved because no two people think alike.
“It’s all based on context. Say you’ve been dating for a month (this is an example) and things have been building so it seems like you’re heading toward something. Lots of communication, dates, etc. Then you would have the “dtr” (determine the relationship conversation).”
Yes. That’s a lighter version of what the coach said, and I could see a path to doing things that way.
“I think when I did it with the LO who I got serious with, the conversation was as simple as him asking, “Am I your boyfriend?”
So I had that sort of chat with SO after about a month of dating, but we had already got physical by then. I’ve found most of my relationships progressed quite naturally to being physical within 3 or 4 dates and before having ‘the conversation’. And my intention was never to ‘get it and go’ in those instances.
I have only one example where that wasn’t true, and she was no-sex-before-marriage for religious reasons.
“… and if we were exploring the possibility of things getting serious.”
How long would you need to date someone before you knew that you wanted to explore that possibility? It can take me a couple of months – depending how we define ‘serious’.
“Was sex on the table that second night? Yes. But he hadn’t shown me enough/done enough for me to want to do it (unless I was looking for short term).”
Absolutely. If short term was all both of you wanted, no harm done. If not, best to cut and run. Could you be sure, though, that he was only after short term? I wasn’t there so I don’t know … but I was going to say there’s no guarantee that’s all he was after.
“I can tell he’d be a lot to deal with. A lot of conversations about the relationship. But that’s me. Other women may like that.”
I haven’t quite figured out how much it is a myth that women now prefer a “thoroughly modern man” who talks out all his emotions, versus wanting a man to take more traditional masculine roles. I know there’s a lot of chat around in favour of the first way… but does it work like that when it really comes down to it?
Idk. It’s a long while since I’ve dated and the market has changed so much.
“Jason Bateman is in it. I think he’s hot. He’s attractive enough (kind of boy next door) but there also seems to be something underneath all of that. Percolating.”
Yes – you’ve got to be able to see signs of it to get the juices flowing. Not have to dig too deep.
“Nice and cute in and of itself is dull”
If they have a ton of charisma, then I’d take cute looks, over someone who is better looking but vain, dull or arrogant. Every day of the week.
“She married the AP. That’s rare. So I’ve read. And it rarely lasts.”
I drifted from her after she cheated on my friend (see – bro code 🙂). I only saw through FB that she’d split from the AP so I don’t know what happened. It goes down as another stat in the failure of relationships that start as affairs. How can it ever go well when you know from the get-go that the partner has affairs?
[“do you think you did anything to encourage his disclosure – any ratchets?”]
“Are you really asking me this?! How long have we been talking?”
Yeah – I knew. But a couple of messages back you said his disclosure was really selfish. So how do you square that, if you were kind of encouraging him? Is it only in hindsight you think it was selfish, or did you at the time?
“There’s a build up to this stuff. It doesn’t come out of nowhere.”
True dat.
“But, to be clear, I’m one person. I can’t definitively tell you whether your LO would want you to disclose or not.”
It’s just your take, but I also think it’s law of averages stuff. Like – where is the story on LwL from anyone EVER, that says “my LO was so pleased when I disclosed!”. If it helps cement the point, my LO is an avoidant.
“I can say, with some certainty, that if you did, the best course of action would be to keep it light and not disclose heavy feelings.”
I believe you.
“That’s exactly what it feels like. Pressure. And there’s a part of you that resents it if you don’t feel the same way because you didn’t want the pressure and heaviness and responsibility of their feelings.”
I think my LO would feel that way.
I also wouldn’t know how to communicate my commitment to the friendship if I disclosed. And that has been real with her, whatever else has happened. I probably can’t convince you of that fact, and that’s OK if we don’t agree. But could you ever believe it if a male friend said that to you alongside a disclosure, or would you always feel faked by him in that situation? (I know your recent experience of that has been terrible, but I’m talking more generally).
[I used to talk to another poster on here who gave me the opposite view – that she’d want the limerent in my position to be honest with her, no matter what.]
“Was she single?”
At the time yes. Her experiences were more of being an LO than a limerent.
“To recalibrate/adjust to a new normal of a totally different friendship. To come to terms with that. In your case, it might be taking a while because of the limerence.”
Maybe. I think it works both ways round. (That is – the limerence is harder to end because I don’t want to give the companionship up).
“But I have no interest in a friendship with him anymore.”
We all have a point we can’t be pushed beyond. His recent texts are odd.
“No, not at all. Have you been to a movie recently? They now have 30 minutes of previews. WHEN IS THE MOVIE GOING TO START?! ”
You pays your money and you gets your goods 🙂
“But weren’t you always attracted to her? Right there: can’t be friends. That’s my personal opinion. You don’t have to agree with me.”
The (quite big) difference was that when I formed the initial friendship with her many many moons ago (and yes, I was a bit attracted then), she was partnered and I wasn’t. So the ethical question for me is not so much about forming the friendship, but more about whether I should have abandoned it when I met SO. Abandoning is harder than not starting. But yes, I probably should have.
“Would you want your SO hanging out one-on-one and communicating with a guy she was attracted to?”
No. But I’d have a tough time being too hard on her if I discovered it, after what I’ve done. Or that’s what I’d like to think, anyway.
The Year of the Fire Horse 2026 | The Ancient Zodiac
https://youtu.be/wJpLeBTeiF0?si=okh2FytcCFuodp6y
Again
Tyree Daye
(love) I’ve been trying to make our (baby) without our bodies
I threw some bones on the page I wrote;
you are a ghost that’s never lived
little side mirror spell
(love) I made our (baby) a ghost to get our (baby) here
who said that?
what a man won’t do
to get what he wants?
forgive me? (love) I thought I knew something
about loving I was longing I thought I knew something
about ghosts I’m closer to Okri
than I am a father
spirit-child wounded wound my mouth that won’t close
what kind of ghost has never been alive?
unborn born and ghost again?
(baby) I’m sorry
I’m sorry to bring you forth like this
into suffering
In Exile
Bryher
Is it love that drifts your head toward your white, cool shoulder, heat-smitten rose too tense for the white throat? Is it love that paints the eyelid ledge with iris; the weariness of days I dare not know you suffered? Is it love that hurts or thought?
Has sleep conquered love? Have you spent your love on the white cytisus ridges, the Nereid-blue water, the wing-dip of the hills?
Are my own limbs but a sheath for your intensity, my love.
The Pool
Bryher
1894 –1983
You mirage a dead world
in the white pool.
White rush and silver rush at twitterlight
meet and desire as the shy boy
lifts from his lover.
White rush and silver rush at twitterlight
touch in the wind and sleep.
Duck-green and willow-silver . . .
has no wing touched your cheek?
Is there no bird
to weave a nest between your sullen limbs
and hatch a songster,
(amber with lizard eyes)
to chirp above your phrases: “Love, love, love . . .”
Your world dies from the surface of the pool.
Why are your hands not on the willow leaves
to feel the sharpness and the thin, soft flower?
To feel . . .
love wrinkle at the touch like a soft bird?
[I seek and desire]
Sappho
translated from the ancient Greek by Bliss Carman
I seek and desire,
Even as the wind
That travels the plain
And stirs in the bloom
Of the apple-tree.
I wander through life,
With the searching mind
That is never at rest,
Till I reach the shade
Of my lover’s door.
I preordered but I cannot fill in the form to get the bonus chapters. 😭 what should I do? Thanks!
Hi Jennifer. Drop me an email through the contact form.
Hi, im new in this forum n just learnt about LE about a month ago…
When i realized that i experience LE, n he ghosted me, after he said something hurtful, i blocked my LO, but after coiple weeks, my LO contactedme again with his other number. When i asked him why he reach out again, he didnt answer n just changed topic… my question is what should i do? Thanks
Is there any telegram or wa group for people with LE that i can join? Thankd
Why not join the forum? For me it was very helpful:
https://limerenceforums.com/
Thanks… ill try that…
The followup of a Christmas News —
My French girlfriend (a physically abandoned SO) just moved back to her marital home. Her limerent husband got back his sense and let go off his LO of 1.5~2 years. The couple worked/reflected together for the past three months on their changes… respectively… Her suffering was beyond my words… 😭
A marital bond of 33 years 🌹 has conquered crazy, flashy LE for an iron-faced husband & father of three children (2 grown).
So happy for her 😅 ❗️
I’m still around Brother. I just haven’t been talkative much. Our finances are fine and next week we got a mechanic to come replace the alternator on my wife’s car so I can get out there and find something. I am thankful for not having the pressure of immediate money worries and time to look for something that is more than just making money. I’ve come to realize what a toxic work environment that I was in. But I stayed because it was a comfort zone so to speak. And I have people dependent on me.
I think it was actually a blessing even though it’s taken me awhile to understand that. I do think God is trying to teach me that. You have to set boundaries for how people treat you.
While I am still out of a routine, once I get reliable transportation I can really get out there. I’m not sure what I want to do, but I know I’m not getting back into the industry I’ve been in the last 25 years. I’m done with it now. I lost seeing my boys grow up because of its demands. Not anymore. But things are getting better. Thank you for being here for me Brother. And look out for Miss Norma for me until I get another set routine and get back to posting more regularly. She’s dear to me Brother.
Brother
It’s good to hear from you. I was wondering if you were taking a sabbatical from here for a bit. Couldn’t blame you if you did. Glad you are well and the boredom from being off hasn’t gotten to you yet. I’m up late watching the early morning news. Today is my off day, so I plan to catch up on sleep. It was a rather long, rough week last week, but not awful..
I was curious. By chance are you networking online for jobs? Indeed is a very helpful site that still sends me jobs all the time. Even though I’m not currently looking. I find doing everything online when it comes to job search is so much easier than getting out and driving around and putting apps in everywhere. Your state may even have referred you to potential jobs online, if you’ve applied for unemployment benefits. Every state is different though I’m sure.
Had it not been for an ex girlfriend, I probably wouldn’t be in the job I’m in today. She didn’t have a hand in it. However she did help me get the job we were working at then. Which is a supplier for the company I work for now. For what it’s worth, I couldn’t ask for much better. Like you, I look at it like its a blessing in disguise. Not to mention Covid played a big part in how it all transpired, so I’m grateful. Even though I probably could have done without the LE. At least in the way it happened.
As for Norma, she’s in good hands my Friend. I think she knows I’m here if she needs me. You let me know if you need me for anything and I hope to see you posting again here soon. Till then, best of luck with the job search.
Thanks Brother for looking after my dear Norma. We still gotta go Slow Dancing Swaying To The Music together. I’ll be back soon and just to be a disagreeable a$$hole like I’m being in Dr L’s other post.
To Adam and MJ:
Sometimes I don’t feel like I don’t fit in here and shouldn’t post anything.
I appreciate that both of you think of me fondly.
Adam
You’re welcome.
Disagreements are healthy. At least, you’re keeping things 100..
Now, if only I can get Marcia to slow dance and sway to the music with me. We could double date with you guys.. 😆
ND
Sometimes I feel like I don’t fit in here. 😑
To MJ:
I have been feeling quite often that I don’t fit in here and perhaps have nothing to contribute. However, I would be pleased to slow-dance with both you and Adam if Marcia is unavailable.
Oh dear Norma none of us “fit in” here. We may all have one thing in common but none of us are the same in how it happens to us.
Does your LO trigger my savior complex with the way he treats you? Yes. Would I take a swing at him giving the chance? Probably.
Do I like how, as I see it (as a heterosexual man) Frederico’s LO led him on with his behavior? No. And I might take a swing at him too. (God I get angry in my old age. Trying to be Miss Snow’s stoic.)
Do I understand my brothers limerence for latinas? No. But I like my chocolate dark. So who am I am so say ….
Do I understand Miss Lovisa’s transference? No. But it seemed to have worked for her. For me transferring limerence from one LO to another is about as productive as me drinking gin instead of vodka. It won’t work.
Dear Norma, none of us fit in here. We are just a bunch of vagabonds with the same problem but all needing different solutions. You are as much a part of this community as anyone else. And you are dear to me Miss Norma. And my brother will be here for you until I can my bearings in what life is dealing me now. I hope your health issues go well along with your tests. I wouldn’t want to bear not hearing from you again.
Brother watch after her please. I know you will.
To Adam:
Your comments warm my heart. Thank you.
Norma,
“However, I would be pleased to slow-dance with both you and Adam if Marcia is unavailable.”
You and I will slow dance. Something tells me those other two will be hugging the wall or standing by the punch bowl. 🙂
To Marcia:
I can do that.
“Something tells me those other two will be hugging the wall or standing by the punch bowl. 🙂”
Marcia
I’m very familiar with that solid wall. Why you gotta hate?? 😆😆
MJ,
“I’m very familiar with that solid wall. Why you gotta hate?? 😆😆”
I know who you are. You’re a man of few surprises. 🙂
Did you see that Bad Bunny was just cast in his first lead role in a movie? (He’s been in a very small roles in other films.) About a Puerto Rican revolutionary. Historical drama. Late 1800s. Viva la revolucion! 🙂
Marcia Dear
While I admire your appreciation for the Spanish speaking people, it shouldn’t surprise you I have little to no interest in Bad Bunny being cast in any major role. That is, unless he’s sharing the screen again with attractive Latinas. I’d probably have to take a gander or two.
My former celebrity crush Hilary Duff is making a comeback. She recently released a new single and I enjoyed the video immensely. (I would’ve posted it but I’m sure you wouldn’t watch it 😆)
I crushed hard on her back in the day, way before Sabrina ever got on the train. Gotta admit too that for someone pushing 40, (she’s 38) she still looks pretty good. Probably doesn’t surprise you I wrote that does it?? 😁
Too bad she’s married. Maybe I’d have a shot. She does have 2 Baby Daddies.. 😆
MJ,
“That is, unless he’s sharing the screen again with attractive Latinas. ”
The movie will also star Javier Bardem, Viggo Mortensen and Edward Norton. I like that no women are included in the cast list thus far. Although those latter three are getting a little long in the tooth. 🙂
Oh, btw, BB’s brother is a model. No surprise there. 🙂
“I would’ve posted it but I’m sure you wouldn’t watch it 😆”
I wouldn’t. 🙂
“Gotta admit too that for someone pushing 40, (she’s 38) she still looks pretty good. Probably doesn’t surprise you I wrote that does it?? 😁”
What woman wants to hear, “You look pretty good”? I’m going to tell you right now: NONE. This part I’m not joking about. I hope these aren’t the compliments you’re giving these women you’re talking to. I shouldn’t have to tell you that.
“Too bad she’s married. Maybe I’d have a shot. She does have 2 Baby Daddies.. 😆”
You don’t like women with children. I just looked her up. She has four. She won’t have enough time for you … because you seem like you need A LOT of time. 🙂
Does the punch bowl got alcohol in it? Cause lord knows I’ve never seen to ladies slow dance together. But it is on my bucket list. Thank the lord for cameras on phones. 😉
Adam,
“Does the punch bowl got alcohol in it? Cause lord knows I’ve never seen to ladies slow dance together. ”
It sounds like you have a different kind of party in mind than Norma and I do. You can go to that party with MJ. 🙂
Norma and I will find some other escorts if we have to. 🙂
To anyone who’s interested–I’m fine with anything.
“The movie will also star Javier Bardem, Viggo Mortensen and Edward Norton. I like that no women are included in the cast list thus far.”
Yep gotta admit I’m even less interested without any Ladies on board. At least cast pretty Ana De Armas in something. She’s a gorgeous Latina under 40. Certainly there must be some role she could be right for. 😆
“Oh, btw, BB’s brother is a model. No surprise there.”
And this affects me how? Hailey Duff ain’t no Hilary Duff.. 😆
“What woman wants to hear, “You look pretty good”? I’m going to tell you right now: NONE. This part I’m not joking about. I hope these aren’t the compliments you’re giving these women you’re talking to. I shouldn’t have to tell you that.”
Of course you don’t. I’m being a perfect gentleman. NewGirl is simply not emotionally available and loves her alone time. I have to roll with however she shows up. The other night we almost left work early and I told her I was going to go to White Castle and she should join me. When she txtd back she didn’t sound too enthused so I suggested pizza again. Gave her some ideas and about that time, we found out we weren’t leaving early so we worked. Texting back and forth all night about work related matters. Which is what its usually about. Its nice and all. She’s opening up more and tying in some outside work issues she’s going through but nothing major. I’m basically nothing but a listening ear at this point. Really not getting emotionally invested. Once and if she ever turns a corner, then I might have something but right now, she’s being a prime anxious avoidant. 😑
“You don’t like women with children. I just looked her up. She has four. She won’t have enough time for you … because you seem like you need A LOT of time. 🙂”
I don’t but I figured on weekends when she doesn’t have them, you know? Afterall I am very needy and why shouldn’t I be? Three plus years is a long time to go without coffee.. I’m a little thirsty.. 🥵😆
MJ,
“Yep gotta admit I’m even less interested without any Ladies on board. ”
I have no issue with it. 🙂
“And this affects me how? ”
It doesn’t affect you. I was talking about me. Us ladies want eye candy, too. It’s one of the reasons we go to the movies. 🙂
Per New Girl, if you keep putting up with crumbs, you’re going to keep getting crumbs. It’s up to you.
I don’t have anything else to add to this topic. I’m not trying to be harsh, but I’ve said all I can say.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jjHRaAB-Km8
I suggest you actually pull up the whole video. It’s about 14 minutes long. But I didn’t know if your attention span lasted that long. 🙂
“I don’t but I figured on weekends when she doesn’t have them, you know? ”
OMG, do you think they all go away at the same time and stay gone? 🙂 There are 4 of them! And aren’t there 2 baby daddies? They’re not all on the same schedule.
“Afterall I am very needy and why shouldn’t I be? ”
It all depends on what you have to give back. What are your skills? 🙂
“I have no issue with it. 🙂”
Marcia
Of course you don’t. It’s probably like going to the meat market. You want the best cuts. I’m no better. I love eye candy. Its another reason I don’t mind going to work. I get plenty of it.. 😆
“OMG, do you think they all go away at the same time and stay gone? 🙂 There are 4 of them! And aren’t there 2 baby daddies? They’re not all on the same schedule.”
True but she’s freaking Hilary Duff. Like she admitted she wanted to be the next Britney Spears. She’s going to be without her kids often. Especially if she’s touring or doing shows. So I was thinking if she ever needs a little love on the side, you know if the road ever gets lonely, or she misses Hubby or whatever, I’ll gladly step in to help. Whatever that looks like. Even if its only for a cup of coffee.. ☕️😆
“It all depends on what you have to give back. What are your skills? 🙂”
I’m pretty good at building/fixing cars and home improvement projects. Including landscaping.. In other words, I bring a little value to the table.. 😆
“I suggest you actually pull up the whole video. It’s about 14 minutes long. But I didn’t know if your attention span lasted that long. 🙂”
It doesn’t. I mean I totally get the gist of the point he’s trying to make. I don’t have to put up with anything. I do because realistically, I don’t even know I can sustain true relationship right now. Dad’s issues are taking up an extraordinary amount of time and it’s just how it has to be. Even if NG was all in, I’d be very skeptical of bringing her on board for this drama. It’s beyond overwhelming and not for everyone.
NG is simply nice to talk to. Nice because LF gave up. Nice because friendship is better than no friendship. The last thing I ever want is a do-over of anything like a LE.
Even though I wouldn’t think its possible given how I feel about LO. I’m not actively expecting anything to happen there because it probably won’t.
However surprises are always possible and if that means I happen to run into LO, then let it happen..
MJ,
[It all depends on what you have to give back. What are your skills? 🙂}
“I’m pretty good at building/fixing cars and home improvement projects. Including landscaping.. In other words, I bring a little value to the table.. 😆”
That went right over your head, so I’m already worried. Those aren’t the kind of skills I was talking about. 🙂
“Nice because friendship is better than no friendship.”
As long as you’re ok with its limitations. But PLEASE stop asking her to do things. Enough with that.
“That went right over your head, so I’m already worried. Those aren’t the kind of skills I was talking about. 🙂”
Marcia
You said skills not what type of skills. I went basic. (Plus I’m a moron 😂)
If you are talking about matters when it comes to the other person, I have a lot I can give. I know how to be present but nobody will know this if they don’t give me a chance to prove it. If however we’re talking about other things, this probably isn’t the place to be chatting about it. We need to keep it kinda G rated here.
” (Plus I’m a moron 😂)”
No argument there. 🙂
MJ,
“I know how to be present but nobody will know this if they don’t give me a chance to prove it. ”
Because you keep picking women who aren’t present themselves.
“We need to keep it kinda G rated here.”
You wanted to get with Hillary Duff. She’s younger and very hot. You’ll have to bring it. 🙂
MJ,
Jessica Alba. 44. New boyfriend is 33. Girl got my memo. 🙂
I sent out an all-points, middle-aged broads’ bulletin. 🙂
Jessica Alba cam have basically any Man she wants. Like many famous Celebs, it is probably no challenge for her whatsoever.
She just got lucky cause Dude is into older Women.
Or maybe she just likes younger guys. Either way Dude gets bragging rights because he’s shagging Jessica Alba..I’d be bragging too I suppose.
“Jessica Alba cam have basically any Man she wants. Like many famous Celebs, it is probably no challenge for her whatsoever.”
Au contraire. It’s much harder for famous women. She’s very successful, which will put off a lot of guys. And she’s over 40, so guys around her age at her level, success-wise, will be dating younger.
That’s why it’s so great she’s dating younger. Because she probably did get offers from much older guys at her level success-wise.
Girl turned the tables. 🙂
I suppose I get that from the intimidating angle but still, she’s super attractive. Its one area she probably never has to worry too much about because someone will be willing to step up. For Women I think its much easier. We’re guys and we want you to like us.
This is the celebrity world we’re talking about too. They’re always breaking up/getting together/getting divorced, etc. Probably drinking cups of coffee together all the freaking time too. In good and bad weather. I wish I could say the same.
“For Women I think its much easier. ”
I don’t agree when it comes to famous women, but this is something you’ve written before. No offense, but that’s how your side is. Most of you cast a wide net. Be mad at your side. Not women. We women have zero control over that.
I did want to offer an update on a small crisis I am having with my closest girlfriend who has been acutely ill with heart failure, and in the hospital twice in the last couple of weeks.
I was posting about it on another thread but I think it belongs here.
She is out of the hospital and on seven different meds. She is feeling slightly better and is able to communicate with me. Previously, she could not catch her breath and could not speak well, which led to her yelling at me whenever I asked a question.
LO, unhelpful as usual, called me “too impetuous.” Not only is he unhelpful, I think he’s wrong. I care about my friend and want to know how to support her.
She’s on a blood thinner, a diuretic, an antibiotic, a blood-pressure medication and some other stuff. Her condition is slowly coming under control.
She is starting to sound like the person she was before she became so sick.
I am grateful for her friendship and glad that she is getting somewhat back to normal. She never should have let this go so long. All of this could have been prevented if she’d just go to the doctor once in a while.
Dear Norma
I take an anti arrhythmia pill three times a day and blood thinners due to my arterial afibulation. I take some other pill that I don’t know wtf it does. But I take it cause Momma will get on me for not taking my medicine.
I am sorry to hear what your friend is going through. Hopefully the medicines can find a good balance for her. I remember asking my doctor if I’d ever be off my medicine. And he told me probably not. I hate being tied to medicines for the rest of my life. So I feel for your friend. I will say a prayer for her. And wish the best for her.
Impetuous? I’m sorry Dear Norma but this man makes me angry. And I don’t like my temper. Impetuous for caring for a friend?! Know that LwL and my brother and I are always here for you. I care greatly about you young lady. Don’t you go letting this a$$hole get to you, okay?
To Adam:
You make me smile. Thank you.
It helps me to remind myself that practically every opinion or piece of advice that LO has given me has not been useful.
I don’t mean to sound pretentious myself Dear Norma. I know I idealized LO and saw her as the perfect woman. I know I’ve come to my better senses since. I’m not trying to belittle you. I know what’s it’s like. I know the power a person can willing/unwilling have over you. Cause LO had it. I just wish I could give you a hug Miss Norma.
To Adam:
I hate myself for still being hung up on LO. He rarely, if ever, says the right thing. He rarely, if ever, gives me what I need.
I realize that God did not put him on this earth to fulfill my requests.
He is so very different from what I initially thought, and some of the attraction has faded, but not all.
I was reading an article this morning by a lady who grew up obsessed with the Royal Family. She was enamored of Princess Diana and followed the family closely for years. She idealized the castles, tiaras, and all the glamour. She said that, in light of current circumstances, her “love” has soured, and in her words, “there’s a crack in the glass, and I can’t unsee it.”
This could be a good metaphor for recovering from LE.
ND,
WRT your friend, I can tell you from experience that when you go on a lot of drugs at one time, it can be quite a balancing act until the get the drugs and the doses right. Some don’t play well with others. They mis-dosed one on me one that sent me to the ER in an ambulance. I thought that I was having a stroke or heart attack. It may take a little tweaking to get it right for your friend.
My cardiologist calls me the “Poster Child for Big Pharma.”
To L.E.:
I think my friend will share the podium with you as a fellow poster child.
She let this go WAY too long. Didn’t see a doctor for a few years and now has heart damage. It got so bad, fluid was leaking from her ankles. One of her legs turned purple.
Yesterday she was complaining to me about the cost of her co-pays.
I gently reminded her that her life was at stake. What’s a $50 or $90 co-pay if the rest of the life-saving service is free?
Also, she wouldn’t bat an eye at spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on an ailing pet.
I just had another contentious conversation with my girlfriend.
A few days ago, I gently asked her if she would have to change her diet. I knew she would, but I wanted to approach her as softly as possible.
She snapped, “I don’t see any reason why I would!”, so I dropped it. I wondered when she would ever get a clue that her drive-through fast-food is killing her.
Well, today she tells me that salt is her enemy, “But I don’t use salt.” I thought, OMG, do you not understand that it’s not the salt in your salt shaker which is causing the problem?
Then she tells me that she is going to have to cut down on her fast-food habits, and that there is a lot of salt in those foods. Good. At least she realizes that much.
I suggested she do some research into the salt content on some of her favorite items and she blew up at me. She was laughing at me and yelling at the same time, telling me that “nobody is going to stop in the drive-through line and check salt content! OMG, that’s crazy!”
I was really tempted to give up, but I made a parallel with something I did many years ago, back in the 1960s, before food products had nutrition labels on them. I bought a book called “Brand Name Calorie Counter.” I studied it and learned the caloric value of the foods I enjoyed. I looked for “calorie bargains,” where I could eat something halfway enjoyable without sending my weight soaring.
I told my friend that she might consider doing some research on the internet, but NOT WHILE SHE’S IN LINE AT THE DRIVE-THROUGH. Companies have nutrition information on their products, and you can look up the calories, salt, protein, etc.
Obviously this would take a bit of time and isn’t something you do while you’re driving, or starving while waiting your turn in line.
I told her, when she’s relaxing at night, think of the items she eats often, and look up some of those and start to get a handle on what she’s dealing with. It’s exactly the same as when I was trying to learn to control my weight, and I did not have the benefit of the internet, or any calorie labels on any products. But I figured it out. I have kept my weight down my entire life and have stayed slender, despite two pregnancies and always being hungry.
I am 73 now and don’t have to look at labels much anymore.
If she would be willing to invest a few minutes per day looking up the salt content of various food items, she would start to catch on very quickly. It would be much easier for her than it was for me.
But instead she chose to laugh at me and then yell at me, “Nobody would ever do what you’re suggesting! That’s the stupidest thing I ever heard of!”
„ But instead she chose to laugh at me and then yell at me, “Nobody would ever do what you’re suggesting! That’s the stupidest thing I ever heard of!”
No. On the contrary. People who begin to use their brain before putting stuff in their mouths are taking a big step to a healthier diet. And this automatically leads to loose weight.
Norma, your suggestions to your friend are very helpful and good. It is on her own to use this help and support. Was she always like that, shouting and yelling when you offer help and care for her? She has to have a really big crisis..
To Laloba:
Thank you for your nice response. I know I gave her a good suggestion.
That little calorie book, which cost me 65 cents back in 1969, was one of the best purchases I ever made.
Life is SO much easier for her now, with sodium listed right on the label of everything, plus the websites for fast-food restaurants offer the same information. This is relatively easy to look up.
Imagine what it was like when you had to go to a bookstore or a library to find this type of information!
Norma,
I think your friend is in total denial of what’s going on with her. All of what she’s saying is just bluster connected to that denial. I bet she knows really that there is salt in other places than the salt cellar.
You’re trying to help but keep getting it thrown in your face, so you just have to know *for yourself* that you’re doing a good thing, and see her responses not as personal but as linked to her denial.
She will have to just get there in her own sweet time. And like Laloba says, possibly it will take a bigger crisis to make her do that. It’s a shame but there’s none so deaf as those who don’t want to hear.
To LaR:
Oh, I imagine you’re right about her being in denial.
She did say there’s a lot of salt in the fast food she eats, so she does understand that much.
She called me again last night and was a little calmer. She told me about going into a restaurant to pick up some food. This is a popular Korean restaurant chain which offers a variety of sauces. She noticed while she was waiting that the sauces are available for purchase in large bottles.
She picked up a bottle of her favorite to check the nutrition label, just like I have been suggesting. She noted that one serving of this particular sauce has 500 mg of salt!!! OMG.
To her credit, she switched her order to a sauce that contains only 40 mg of salt.
This is exactly the type of thing I was trying to explain to her.
I think she is catching on fine but I could do without all the yelling and the laughter. Particularly the laughter.
She laughs because my ideas are so preposterous (to her) that she can’t control her reaction.
Norma,
Is this one where pride dictates that she has to rewrite ‘your good ideas’ as ‘her good ideas’ to own and accept them?
To LaR:
I hadn’t thought of that. You could be right.
She has always been thin, healthy and active. The last ten years, she has put on a ton of weight and all of this label-reading is new to her.
It’s second-nature to me due to my life-long struggle to stay thin.
I guess if she has to re-write my ideas to claim ownership, that’s fine.
I asked her how much sodium she is allowed. She said “zero.” Well, that’s stupid. So I looked up how much sodium is allowed for a heart patient. 1500 – 2000 mg. Okay, so I told her that. I suggested she think of this as a “salt budget,” and learn how to spend her milligrams wisely throughout the day, just as I have been doing with calories for almost 60 years.
I just want her to learn how to manage her heart disease. Oh, and stop laughing at me.
To Laloba:
Forgot to answer your question.
She has always been like this but she is much, much worse since she’s been in the hospital.
LaR is right that this is on her. I have never had heart/sodium issues, but I know I am giving her good advice.