Another month flies by, which means it’s time for a visit to the LwL virtual coffeehouse.
The conversation starter for this visit is simple: the North American edition of my book is coming out in a couple of weeks.
Over ten years on from my own limerence “adventure”, the book that summarises everything I’ve learned in that decade is coming out in the US and Canada on February 3rd.
It wouldn’t have been possible without you fine folks of the livingwithlimerence.com community.
There are over 8 million words of commenter wisdom (and, let’s be honest, a fair amount of foolishness too) on the site now.
How’s that for lived experience!
So, many thanks to everyone who’s shared their story over the years, and helped us all make sense of the romantic madness that is limerence.
Finally, as an additional sweetener for those who pre-order ahead of the launch, I’ve written five bonus chapters on some especially tricky topics:
- Unrequited limerence
- Limerence for a mentor
- Limerence for a co-worker
- Limerence for a therapist
- Limerence for a married LO
To get access to those bonus chapters, just fill in this form with proof of purchase.
Pre-orders help a lot with visibility, bookshop orders and production planning. So this is a thank you for those who buy ahead.
And, for anyone who already completed the pre-order form for the UK edition of Smitten (which came out last April), rest assured I still have your details and will send the bonus chapters to you on US publication day.
Cheers!
I take responsibility for my share of the foolishness around here.
I am very happy to report that I am still mostly disinterested in LO, which is due to his own behavior, and not any strength of will on my part.
Trying to go NC had the opposite effect on me, so I just let LO hang himself with his own rude and thoughtless remarks.
Now, I will say that if LO were to suddenly shower me with kindness, I would probably have a serious relapse.
So I am maintaining hyper-vigilance.
I met this person H on a trip… it was really a few days when we interacted but during these few days I felt an instant spiritual connection. I was on a trip a lone without my husband, with whom I have a mostly happy relationship with ups and downs.
My problem is that when I came back I started thinking about H when I have sex with my husband, and it has improved A LOT, but now i fantasize about H when we do it, and I even cry sometimes, which i have told my husband is due to “hormones”
H ended our relationship since we are both married and he lives elsewhere, but I have not been able to stop thinking about him and constantly look for a reason to write to him.
Excellent. This is good news. It was also in my email. I have a birthday coming up so I will treat myself. Also looking forward to the bonus chapters. I will put in for the pre-order soon.
Btw, I have a hand in the foolishness too. Marcia made me do it.. 😆😂
@MJ.
I wanted to reach out to you to let you know that you are regarded with great affection (by me and by other readers at LwL I’m sure), foolishness or no.
I’m sorry if anything I’ve said to you has hurt your feelings or not been in the best possible taste.
Thank you for enjoying my exchanges over the years with other readers such as Snow and Limerent Emeritus, etc. Apologies to other readers such as Snow and Limerent Emeritus, etc, if they really were trying to communicate something serious. (Limerent Emeritus, I still have that lovely paragraph about beautiful reptiles you wrote me). 😉
Thank you for enjoying my personality in general. I didn’t know I’d end up being the person who kind of-somewhat-maybe brought people together.
Dr. L has done a great job of not micromanaging people on his blog when the situation isn’t one that calls for it. I think the foolishness we see at LwL is sometimes the same foolishness that most people express during primary school, high school, university days, etc. Pretty harmless stuff, but there’s a time and place for it. Maybe limerents, largely being introverts and whatnot, didn’t have a chance to discharge all of that foolish energy at a more appropriate stage in life?
Please stop sniggering about “discharge”. “Discharge” is not a naughty word.
At one point, I did a very funny if slightly cruel impression of Snow (the woman who’s terrified of the thought police, but then loves to portray herself as a perpetual victim of these allegedly omnipresent creatures that no one else on the site has ever actually met). Here’s my impression of Marcia: “I disagree. 🙂.” All of Marcia’s comments could be summed up as: “I disagree. 🙂.”
Marcia, I apologise to you in advance if you find my impression of you offensive. On the bright side, at least the impression isn’t verbose! (Two words and one emoji!) In my impression of you, have I not honoured the brevity-loving spirt of the woman?
I hate to admit it, but I have probably learned something from almost everybody here at LwL. Apart from Snow. I’ve definitely learned nothing from Snow. Forgive me one last witticism, but I think the reason I’ve learned nothing from Snow is because Snow clearly doesn’t understand “rosy-grown men”! 😜
In case nobody else ever notices the clever captions Dr. L likes to give his visuals, I better say it on behalf of the group: “Woot!”
Little Sammy,
“Here’s my impression of Marcia: “I disagree. 🙂.” All of Marcia’s comments could be summed up as: “I disagree. 🙂.””
Fair enough. 🙂
” In my impression of you, have I not honoured the brevity-loving spirt of the woman?”
Finally you display some reading comprehension skills 🙂
P.S. You didn’t offend me.
MJ,
“Btw, I have a hand in the foolishness too. Marcia made me do it.. 😆😂”
#Weasel 🙂
Speaking of Weasel.. 🙂
This was in my feed tonight and I thought it was funny. I figure this is how a date with LO would go. Especially the crying part..
Totally me.. 😂
https://youtu.be/ea9vQyGt7XQ?si=MVtL49hVdhoyM1tv
Marcia Sis,
What are made of “rosy-grown men? Have you met any in your life? Do they have a rosy cheek? 🤔
Marcia Sis,
“What are made of “rosy-grown men? Have you met any in your life? Do they have a rosy cheek? 🤔”
I don’t know what you’re talking about. MJ’s link? I didn’t look at it.
Didn’t really want to. I’m good. I’ve read enough on here about how middle-aged men think. I don’t need to know more. 🙂
Marcia,
Look up past MJ’s post and in the penultimate paragraph of Sammy’s post in this thread.
MJ’s short video clip about dating a 10 woman (to men’s eyes) is kind of funny, unreal! 😁 I’d never seen one before… 😆
Snow,
“Look up past MJ’s post and in the penultimate paragraph of Sammy’s post in this thread.”
I’m good.
“MJ’s short video clip about dating a 10 woman (to men’s eyes) is kind of funny, unreal! 😁 I’d never seen one before… 😆”
I’m good. I don’t think that kind of thing is funny. Rating people by numbers. I think it’s abhorrent. I never went out on the prowl with the mindset of “landing a 10.” I can’t even get my head around that kind of thinking. And I don’t want to be some guy’s consolation prize if he can’t get the 10.
Thank you Sammy. You’re too kind. I’ve just tried to keep it real. Even though I think I’m way out of the worst of my limerent spell, I’ve stayed around because I like the community thats been built up here over time. Some of you feel like real friends. So I appreciate that and for reading my endless rants about not getting cups of coffee with certain people.
Nothing you’ve posted comes to mind, where you were seriously offending me. I think the only close time was when I felt like you were offended by my finding your writing almost comedic in nature at times. Something about how you string your phrases together not intending to be funny, but you end up making me laugh anyway. Seriously though, you do understand this limerence thing and know well how to put it all into words.
As for Marcia, if she wasn’t disagreeing about something, where would us limerents get all this incredible knowledge? Dr. L says over 8 million words of commenter wisdom have been posted over the years in this forum. I’ll bet 4 million of those words belong to Marcia.. Her Ladyship.. 😆
Some really valuable information I’d like to share before it’s lost to obscurity…
Because I’m interested in limerence, r/limerence is one of the online communities dedicated to the subject I casually follow. There, the other day, David/Shiverypeaks wrote something that I thought was amazing:
“The way it [limerence] actually seems to work is that at the beginning, an LO gets associated with reward so you come to “want” the person (incentive salience). Then once you “want” them, you are emotionally dependent on whether you get into a relationship (so that the reward would be regular). Then uncertainty comes in, because when the reward is unpredictable incentive salience intensifies. And it probably gets more difficult for limerence to extinguish as this goes on.”
This is absolutely 100% what happened to me during my own limerence episode. I feel seen. I feel understood. Thank you, David.
David also pointed out that r/limerence is not a cheater’s forum. Most of the people who post there are lonely, traumatised, neurodivergent. And the experience of “falling in love” for them has proven to be a disaster. (All helpful context for anyone wondering why that particular support community exists).
A different poster on r/limerence wrote something that I thought explains really well why limerence might still prove alluring to people in midlife, despite the fact that people in midlife probably aren’t planning on having any more babies:
“It’s [limerence’s] more addictive than drugs, especially in middle age when you feel like life has made you more jaded and homogenized. To suddenly feel these waves of passion and euphoria again for anyone, fantasy or not, is pretty intoxicating.”
“To suddenly feel these waves of passion and euphoria again for anyone, fantasy or not, is pretty intoxicating.”
I completely agree. That may explain the intense glimmer I once felt. Nothing has ever come close to it. No other Woman has ever made me feel like that. If I became jaded and homogenized, then its no wonder I felt like it (limerence), was the greatest and at the same time, worst roller coaster ride ever.
Limerence is like alcohol; the more you partake the more it kills you from the inside. I should know on both counts.
@Marcia, MJ, Others.
I didn’t read the comments you left me, although I know your comments contained no malice and probably a great deal of love and support. My reason for not reading comments in general is that I am actually abnormally sensitive by nature, (always have been), and get hurt easily by things not intended to hurt me.
Even though I skip most comments, I still respond to people where appropriate. The reason I respond to people is I am a leader (albeit an extremely reluctant one). I am also an unconventional leader, an intuitive leader. Before I lead people, I have to close my eyes. I instinctively know where to “direct” people even if they don’t give me their exact coordinates. In fact, the less information people give me, the better. I’m like a dolphin – I navigate the social realm by echolocation.
I don’t feel ill will toward anybody at LwL. Not even the slightly surly Limerent Emeritus or the understandably frustrated Mila or the wonderfully exuberant Snow. All you guys remind me a lot of the kids I knew growing up here in Australia. Honestly, your personalities and attitudes aren’t new to me.
Marcia, you like to disagree with people. However, you’ve also asked people some really great questions along the way, and effectively destroyed the power of The Clique (the people who were treating LwL as if it were a cheater’s forum). So, when I call you out, I’m not telling you to stop participating. I’m saying … maybe slow down a tiny bit and listen a little more? Don’t be afraid of knowledge. 😉
Marcia, as an intuitive person yourself, you’ve probably already sensed this – I see life as a game of chess. You were the queen playing for the opposing side. In order to win the game of chess, I had to disarm you. My takedown of you wasn’t personal, but it was necessary for the community’s future. You were a very powerful queen, but you weren’t a very clever queen. You should have realised a palace revolution was under way, and the person who would usurp you was your most loyal aide. MJ proved to be a useful if completely unwitting accomplice.
Here’s the big problem with limerence as I see it. As a human being, I can’t make anybody love me. However, if I’m in limerence with LO, I am emotionally dependent on whether or not LO appears to love me. If I can’t gather enough evidence that LO loves me, then I’m doomed to spend most of the time feeling emotionally upset and even physically sick (because limerence is an addiction).
The tension is between (1) emotional dependency on a person and (2) not having any real say or control over how that other person sees me and treats me.
Most people who talk about limerence are talking to or talking about people who have had a really crummy experience of limerence. Like r/limerence, LwL isn’t a cheater’s forum. It’s a forum for people trying to get their lives back on track.
Do we all now understand Dr. L’s emphasis on purposeful living? 🙂
I forgot how he actually worded it, but in an exchange I had with Speedwagon early on in my time here, I mentioned something to him about the married men here with younger LOs. I think I was discussing that I was somewhat jealous because they all seemed to be in a better place than I was emotionally. Being that they all were having real interactions with their LOs and I was somewhere lost on Fantasy Island.
His response was real and down to earth. He basically said that I shouldn’t sweat it. That the married men here weren’t having any better of a time in dealing with their LEs than I was. That it isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. At the time, I didn’t get it but now that I’m not as infatuated or deep in the woods as I was, I now overall see it as the crummy experience he was talking about.
I wish there was a way I could go back and find all the posts by author. I would love to read again about all the struggles I was having then versus now..
MJ,
I think I basically agree with Speedwagon.
From my lifelong experience with limerence, both as an unmarried and married man, I would say the the best thing is not to be limerent at all. If you have to be limerent to someone, it should be towards your SO, but that is not something I have experienced, so I won’t speak to hat, as others have.
Returning to your original question, as to who is happier, I would say that as a person, I have generally been happier being married, for a whole host of reasons. However, having an LO, while married, regardless of the age of LO, brings its own set of complications and added guilt and shame, along with occasional feelings of being conflicted. When unmarried, I found that some of the best ways of ending one LE is to either transfer to another LE, which is fraught with its own dangers, or a new relationship, which can be trememdously uplifting and usually ends the old LE. When in a marriage, at least one where the intention is to strengthen it, neither a new LE nor a new relationship is a great idea.
By the way, all LEs involve being “lost on Fantasy Island,” whether there are real interactions or not; I find that a big part of recovery (although I have done plenty of backsliding and climbing back), is coming to this realization.
I have I few other thoughts on this as well that I’ll return to when I have more time — I about to go on a trip with my SO.
Good luck to you.
Sammy,
“I’m saying … maybe slow down a tiny bit and listen a little more? Don’t be afraid of knowledge. 😉”
When I’m actually offered “knowledge,” I’ll take it. 🙂
I don’t have a flurry of comments from posters offering me help. Outside of Snow. She’s really the only one who has.
I don’t really have anything else to add to this site. Which isn’t to say I’ll never pop up here and there, like LE. But it is TTMO. Time to move on.
Can’t you feel it?
Marcia Darling,
It was YOU who has patiently, benevolently brought one of my legs from the Stone Age to 21st century America … 😀 I’m still culturally ignorant like a toddler who just waned off diapers. It’s inevitable that I’ll have accidents here and there… Perhaps I should learn from some Indian women who wear Sari without panties ❓🤔
Good lucks to your upcoming dating and let us know of good or bad or neutral experiences, so we could always learn from Marcia’s new insights 👁️ . Please be watchful of our one shared habit: mental OCD.
Snow,
“Perhaps I should learn from some Indian women who wear Sari without panties”
Do they? I didn’t know that.
“Good lucks to your upcoming dating and let us know of good or bad or neutral experiences, so we could always learn from Marcia’s new insights .”
Thank you. I am deeply ambivalent about it. I want it to just show up at my door. There’s something undignified about hunting it down. I’m a lazy person socially. 🙂
“Please be watchful of our one shared habit: mental OCD.”
I shall. 🙂
Marcia,
“Do they? I didn’t know that.“
That’s what a collage classmate told me after she visited India, maybe just some areas. I never been to that country before, where there is supposed to be a lot of spirituality or New-Age stuff.
“I am deeply ambivalent about it. I want it to just show up at my door. There’s something undignified about hunting it down. I’m a lazy person socially. 🙂”
Your “it” here means insights? I don’t think anyone is “hunting”insights down, they just naturally come with experiences, don’t they?
But your “it” and my “it” could be similar or different after going through a same experience, right? Can we say that an experience/insight is also a mirror to our personality traits❓
Snow,
“Your “it” here means insights? I don’t think anyone is “hunting” insights down, they just naturally come with experiences, don’t they?”
No. “It” meant men. Dating and men.
Lady Marcia,
“I am deeply ambivalent about it. I want it to just show up at my door. There’s something undignified about hunting it down. I’m a lazy person socially. 🙂”
Don’t you miss Homer’s era when suitors just gather in your (Penelope) house to be chosen, even after your son has grown to be an adult? And if you’re a “Helen of Troy”, you could even stimulate nations’ vigor and economy when they go to war for your honor⁉️ 😆
Now, look what the West has done: after the first feminism movement , women have raced out to bring home bread and still dominantly take care of babies; after the 2nd feminism, women have zoomed through not only bread-winning and baby-raising, but also MEN/husband-hunting; what a fair, 🆓, brave new world we are living in ⁉️🙄
I want to ride my Tardis to Homer’s era or to be reincarnated into a puppy in Shangeri-La to be cared by a loving 🥰 mommy/daddy.
Socially, I was/am a sloth, and will be sleeping from 🌄 to 🌅 until the “Judgment Day”… Your ladyship, I’m weary of this modern living… 🌊
Snow,
“Now, look what the West has done: after the first feminism movement , women have raced out to bring home bread and still dominantly take care of babies; after the 2nd feminism, women have zoomed through not only bread-winning and baby-raising, but also MEN/husband-hunting; what a fair, 🆓, brave new world we are living in ⁉️”🙄
I certainly wouldn’t want to go back to a world before feminism, where options for a woman were either to get married/have children or live with her family for her entire life. I guess a third choice would be to join the nunnery.
“Don’t you miss Homer’s era when suitors just gather in your (Penelope) house to be chosen, even after your son has grown to be an adult? ”
That sounds good. If they could just line up against my living room wall so I can make my pick. And then if I end up not liking choice #1, choice #2 is waiting, on stand by. 🙂
“Thank you. I am deeply ambivalent about it. I want it to just show up at my door.”
“That sounds good. If they could just line up against my living room wall so I can make my pick. And then if I end up not liking choice #1, choice #2 is waiting, on stand by. 🙂”
Marcia
I’ll be right over. I won’t worry about being #2 because I know I’ll be #1.
Even if I was 2nd choice I’d be ok with it too. I’ll be 2nd. Fools don’t mind.. 😁😆
MJ,
Ummmm … you wouldn’t be on the wall at all. We’ve talked about this. 40 to 45 is the age range.
You have your preferences; I have mine. 🙂
“40 to 45 is the age range.
You have your preferences; I have mine.”
Marcia
True but I can still pass for looking 45.. I’m ageless.. Looks count.
MJ,
True but I can still pass for looking 45.. I’m ageless.. Looks count.
Oh, they definitely do but I picked 40 to 45 so the guy looked 30 to 35. 🙂 He has the sensibility (hopefully) of a grown man but still looks young.
I feel like you’re being coy about me not having proper sensibility.
(You wouldn’t be wrong to think that either.. 😂)
MJ,
“I feel like you’re being coy about me not having proper sensibility.
(You wouldn’t be wrong to think that either.. 😂)”
I wasn’t being coy. The comment wasn’t directed at you. You’re not on my list of potentials so you weren’t on my radar screen when I wrote it. 🙂
“But it is TTMO. Time to move on.
Can’t you feel it?”
Marcia
What are you, leaving me? You can’t leave. Nobody’s leaving this good old fashioned family Christmas. I didn’t give you permission to leave. 😂
Sammy,
“…slightly surly…”?
Well, I am the self-appointed “LwL Curmudgeon in Residence.”
In the future, I will strive to achieve “moderately surly.”
Younger LOs with limerent men are more reactive to the women of LwL (and women in general) than I think the gender swap situation would be. I think women are more reactive to age gaps. Well women are more reactive period ….. *dodges bullets*….. I mean, if I’m gonna admit I might have a new LO and it’s my dear Miss Norma, whose gonna do anything other than Dame Marcia giving me a “Gibbs” slap to the back of my head, just as an excuse to do so? (She’s been wanting to do it since the beginning.)
Age I think has more to do with biology when it comes to female LOs. My dear Miss Lovisa worded it so well along with Miss Limmy way back when I first came here. (Dame Marcia voiced her opinion too but she hates I keep bringing it up.) God/evolution made us hardwired for procreation. Men are fertile all their lives, women aren’t. LO (and my dear Miss Norma too) was alone, unsupported. Discarded by a soulless devil (my dear Miss Norma) and it’s instinctive for me to want to fill those lost roles in her life. Is it my responsibility? No. Do I care? No. Might you want to fill a father figure role in younger woman’s life too? Maybe.
Is it my fault I find purpose and worth in myself by being what I can be to the women in my life? Yes. But I don’t know how else to live. And limerence, ya’ll and Dr L are trying to teach me this. This is a burden I’ve been carrying all my life. I’m trying to learn from Miss Snow’s stoicism. LE’s practicality. My brother MJ’s ability to express his emotions. My dear Miss Norma’s unfathomable kindness. Hell we even need Sammy’s snarkiness. And my lost brother Frederico’s empathy. Miss Lovisa’s kindness and empathy and ability to always know the right thing to say. That’s the best part of this community; it’s all of us together. Helping fill the holes in each other’s psyche.
Miss Mila told me probably the most pointed thing I’ve ever heard in my life (I paraphrase) “Why think you need to rescue her from this new man (the man she married after her ex)? Wouldn’t it be better if LO is happy with him?” God bless you Miss Mila.
Oh and LaR, I don’t know where you get your sense of humor from, my man, but …. 😂
Catcyclist you got the best username here. The thought of a cat riding a bicycle is both scary and funny.
Adam,
Thanks for the shoutout!
I find that being a cat, especially on a bicycle, gives me great purpose in life, though perhaps not what Dr L had in mind!
Adam,
Just discovered that I have a few competitors / interests.
https://www.etsy.com/market/cats_riding_a_bike
https://www.icanvas.com/canvas-print/cat-on-bicycle-coc14#1PC6-40×26
I personally like the Coco de Paris lady cat. But I’m afraid she might be too pretty for me. I do not want to turn her into my next cat object (CO).
Haha I wouldn’t want our cat to get a bicycle. She’d be a Hell’s Angel on wheels. She’s hates when I pet and feed the other female street cats in the neighborhood. I’m just a manwhore to her. She won’t let me near her or even come close to petting her if she smells another female on me. 😂
“The “LO is a drug” perspective also helps make sense of how to manage limerence. You are probably not going to be able to be friends with your LO, just like an alcoholic will never be able to be a social drinker. This is especially true if your LO is manipulative or narcissistic or limerent for you too, because those guys will be enablers.” — Dr. L
If LO is a good one, or a dormant limerent, or a non-limerent, they might be frightened by a LE addiction, who wants to be treated like a “drug” instead of a rounded person? Who (good LOs) wants to enable or worsen limerents’ LE addiction? They probably would run over the hills for the sake of both sides.
I might be wrong that from my inadequate Eastern perspective/sense, there is a very subtle emphasis on the power of addiction (in public or here). Ample knowledge, sympathy, empathy, resources and (in)effective assistance are given everywhere in the West, but not enough individual persistent battles within the sufferers. Additions, especially behavioral ones, can and have to be fought from inside of sufferers first and foremost; and the war against LE addiction can be won based on Dr.L’s 👨🏻⚕️ own cases—
When available mutual limerents/LOs act on quickly (after Glimmer or Honeymoon stage), limerence would not develop into its personal addiction stage. When limerent or/and LO is unavailable, NC is the ONLY road leading to one’s mental and spiritual 🆓 (for one LE at least, hopefully once for all).
Personally, I do not believe a behavior addiction is inherited, a true story:
My paternal grandfather was an addicted gambler. The 1st time right before he was about coming to America, he happily went gambling and lost all the money saved up for the immigration. The 2nd time right before he was about to flee to Taiwan (from the communism) he joyfully went to gambling again and lost his possessions, including his wedding gift to my Granny, a gold watch ⌚️(never got it back).
My father boasted that he would win more if he gambled, but the RED system would not allow anyone to do it. I took him to a casino here once; before entering it he said, “I’m not going to play like your grandpa.” And he kept his words and only played $10 for the slot machine 🎰 and lost it all.
I went to US casinos 4 times (3rd time in LV for a conference); each time it bored my head off despite all the fancy, fake exteriors and interiors. In our (w/ SO) first visit to LV, I threw 4 quarters into a slot machine and actually got back 8 quarters — won $1; then we stopped. I never forget those gamblers’ faces (sitting in front of slot machines) — I was/am convinced that their souls were about entering Dante’s Inferno…⚫️
To me, casinos are the most depressive place in the world 🌍
Never understood gambling. When our in laws in the first year of our marriage visited Momma and I in St Louis wanted to go to the gambling boats. I sat out in the foyer at the bar and drank. Alcohol is an addiction I know. Gambling; get behind me Satan.
Some Asian people love gambling is because it’s related fatalism, it’s win or lose by lucks. By math probability/random laws, one could win very occasionally (like my $1). Casanova de Venice first invented lottery system, he’s great in Math.
Unless you play cards/poker games, which involve some math skills, the rest of games in any casino is just terribly boring to me!
Well, if my Grandpa did not lose it all in his first gambling, my Dad would not meet my Mom, there would not be ME today. Every fate/karma leads somewhere…
Health is considered the MOST important in Asia, not pleasurable, self-harmful indulgence. Majority of COO people never get into substance addictions that literally change one’s brain, such as alcohol or even marijuana. To them, taking them is just a stupidity.
Some greedy Asians smuggle those harmful substance into the West, because they see more people in the West (by proportion) are not strong enough to resist them. There is little sale within their own nations.
Some Asians would argue with you:
Losing money is to lose something external, and one can always make more money (my Grandpa did to repay his debts).
Messing up your brain is to lose something internal – your own physical and mental health, one can’t get damaged or dead brain and nerve cells back!
Gambling is still a behavioral addiction, a neuraltypical person can change or control it somewhat easier than any substance drug. I assume it would be the same with Limerence addiction (with neural-typical people)
With both alcohol and LE addiction in one person, I can’t tell what it’s like 😓 I pray for you, Adam 📿
My Ex Wife is a Casino Manager.
A really nice one, a few towns over from here. Your get behind me Satan comment makes me laugh.. 👹
Never stepped foot in a casino and never will. I worked in a convivence store out of high school for 6 years and I had seen so many of the same people waste so much money on lottery, that have no interest in gambling of any kind.
I was talking to the bartender who was telling me if you go out on the casino floor even if you don’t gamble you get free drinks. I was like, yeah get me drunk than get me to gamble and waste more money. Naw I’d rather pay for my drinks up front here. To which he said “you already know the drill.”
One of the best strip clubs I went to back in the day, had free domestic beer on Thursday nights. Which was also ironically, amateur night. Needless to say I did spend that money on the other things I came there for. I drained my account many times doing that and had many arguments with the little lady afterwards.
Bad luck and limerence has been the retribution. I swear it has. So deserved imo..
Strip clubs is another thing that never appealed to me. I mostly (the few times someone talked me into going) spent my time at the bar drinking.
Brother I got laid off today. Outta nowhere. I got funds to gather to be alright but damn it came out of left field. Been there 7 years and always gave my best. But I guess that doesn’t matter. Momma is not taking it well and is worrying too much. I am sure we will be alright. I was kinda on the fence of leaving anyway this last year so maybe this is the push I need. The last physical connection to LO. Maybe this is a good thing in disguise.
Today, maybe I am like Merle Haggard; think I’ll just stay here and drink. Probably not the most healthy solution, but meh
I hope you find a new job soon, Adam! May very well be a blessing in disguise, with how your coworkers kept mentioning your LO to you and keeping her in your thoughts. 😛
Hi Adam,
I’d like to echo Serial’s comments.
I too hav efound that merely going to where the LO used to be helpps sustain the limerence. New beginnings can help.
You will get through this.
Adam, I’m really sorry to hear that. Hope you can make some positive next steps once it has sunk in and you’ve had a bit of time to process it.
I’ve concluded that I’ll never put the lid completely on my LE as long as LO and I stay in the same workplace. It is under much better control than it once was, but it never totally goes away.
I know your LO left years ago but I’m sure the place is full of reminders of her. Hopefully this can be a blessing in that way.
🎩 Adam,
I’m very sorry to hear your sudden news, reminding me how I felt when I heard my same news over 2.5 years ago on Augest, 2023…. But it might be a blessing in disguise, just like mine, no one knows yet. Please keep the positive thinking!
Every fate leads somewhere – if my grandpa did lose all his money in gambling a week before immigrating to the US (through his job with an American big company), I’d never been born as Snow.
I wish you to land another job soon!
I feel like a bad provider now. I can’t do the one thing as a father and a husband that I should.
🎩 Adam,
You’re NOT a bad father or husband. The situation is NOT within your control, which can happen to anyone at any time!
Try to remember Stoicism and try anything that is within your power — Move on and look around for available professional opportunities!
Does your company give you some severance package?
I only hope that you would NOT reach that bottle so frequently… 🫂
Thank you all for your encouragement. I’ll first off file for unemployment and Monday start making calls to people I know within my field to see what I can find.
Our youngest is so much like his mother. He can read people well. I can’t hide my fear of the uncertainty of the future. He came into the room I was in while listening to music and he says “Dad are you doing okay?” I said “I’m fine.” He knows I’m lying.
Our oldest and his roommate are coming sometime next week to help me replace the alternator in my wife’s car as it’s the only vehicle we have now. He’s a very practical kid. Well he’s not a kid, he’s a man. And his roommate is a talented mechanic. And like a son to me.
My own parents and many of my wife’s family are prepared and told us they will provide any financial support if we need it. But that’s not their responsibility. It’s mine.
“I would only hope that you would NOT reach for that bottle frequently”
Miss Snow
I do too. Reminds me of a line in a song I can relate to every single word but this line stands out more than any other one.
“Don’t want to drink but it keeps coming around and around and around.”
Dear Alcohol — Dax
https://youtu.be/k5ZtZEtDEGo?si=7BCBbcWk2vwmUjpl
🎩 🥃 ,
Alcohol does not have feet like a LO, they can’t keeping coming around and around, only drinkers keeping reaching the bottle again and again. 😒
There is a line in the song you posted:
“Dear alcohol,
I found out you were even worse than what they said. Sometimes I try to remember the good times but you actually made me forget most of those memories instead.”
Whenever I read about addictions problems in the West, I feel “lucky” to have grown up in COO with its one positive element — train one’s will power since young, regardless of gender.
In my elementary school in the city (after my exile), we fifth graders (5 classes) were required to carry 5kg stuff (blanket or bricks) in a backpack and to walk 10-16 miles on hardened snow under – 20~ -30 C degree, purely for Will purposes! And no parents ever complained, perhaps all thinking it’s helpful/necessary.
It was still hard for me (frozen inside out and exhausted), but felt proud when the training was over, without any of us dropped out. No kids dared to escape.
Brother,
I am sorry to read about your layoff. 7 years is a good amount of time to have put in. Was this solely you or were others included in on this as well? I guess I figured with that kind of time you’d have better stability, but I forgot the line of work you’re in, so I don’t know.
Is there any chance you will go back?
I suppose there are pros and cons, if you’re thinking about it from the limerence angle. The triggers there seemed to affect you which I totally get, so perhaps being away will change matters.
Its too bad you don’t live closer my way. There are a lot of decent jobs around here that will hire middle-agers like us. I might be able to hook you up.
Stay in touch Brother. There’s a reason for everything.. 🤜🏻🤛🏻
I want to offer a small update. I have been pre-occupied with medical issues for the last couple of months. I have elevated liver enzyme levels, although I have no symptoms. My doctor was alarmed and ordered additional tests. The levels have come down somewhat, but are still slightly elevated.
I noticed that being preoccupied with my health has driven thoughts of LO from my mind. I still think about him, but less so.
I was thinking that I am just trading one crisis for another.
I hope it’s manageable! *hugs*
To Serial:
I think it’s manageable, but I have gotten myself perhaps more worried than I should. The fact that the doctors have no idea what’s going on is concerning.
Thank you for your nice comment.
Dear Norma
I hope the best for you and will pray for your speedy recovering and hope you find the answers that you don’t right now. Remember you still owe me a dance together. I’m holding you to that. 🙂 Take care dear.
Dear Adam:
I am available to dance anytime. I’m not actually having any symptoms other than profound anxiety.
Elevated liver enzymes are usually caused by drinking, I believe? Since I don’t drink at all, this is a puzzlement.
Best wishes to you Norma. Try not to worry but be demanding of your medics, as you are a priority!
I agree a crisis does focus the mind, and lessens other wandering thoughts including those of LOs.
Take care
To Imho:
I don’t know whether brooding about LO or brooding about my liver is more painful.
Next step is another MRI in mid-February.
Managing my anxiety is turning into a full-time job.
Hi Norma,
I’m sorry to hear about your new health issues with liver enzymes. I hope it is a relatively mild problem.
I had a similar problem a few decades ago. After I discontinued NSAIDS (ibuprofen, naproxen, and branded versions), the issue has rarely recurred. I’m not suggesting that this will necessarily work for you, but just recounting my experience.
Think of the bright side — reducing your thoughts about LO seems like a wonderful tradeoff to me!
Wish you the best.
To CatCyclist:
Thank you for your nice comments. I do take some Tylenol which may be contributing to the problem. The doctor is aware of this. Liver biopsy and Fibroscan both came out perfect.
So I am not sure what to think.
Hello everyone,
Apologies, as I am new to posting and not sure where to post this, I have bought the book though so maybe I will be forgiven, lol 🙂 Just wanted to put the following out into the ether, week 2 of no contact and I will never go back but somehow posting this helps:
How many times can I say goodbye to you? The one in my head and the one in my life? But the one in my head is the only one I can really talk to…the real one…the real you…is a stranger…the one in my head knows me better than anyone…the one in real life hardly knows me…the one in my head understands all that I feel…the real one is constantly confused by my behaviour…I know that neither of you exist…because truth be told you are both strangers to me…but it is to the one in my head that I want to say goodbye…even as I speak the words to the one in my life…
@Adam.
Here’s something that might lift your spirits. In his latest YT video “Don’t Cut Them Off: How to escape limerence without wrecking your life”, Dr. L quotes Frederico.
This is the quote from Frederico, which can be read and heard at around 2.40:
“That’s how I started, three years ago. The pleasure was sublime at times but I was kidding myself and it has wrecked my emotional life. I am now picking up the pieces.”
Recognise that voice? Does that sound like the Frederico we both knew? If so, exciting stuff, no? Like receiving a message from beyond the grave? Dr. L’s videos are starting to be more interesting than an episode of “This is Your Life”. 😜
Now we just need to teach MJ to say something beautiful, witty, and profound, so he too can enjoy his 5 seconds in the sun. Maybe we should wait until after he’s read his copy of “Smitten”? He’ll probably feel inspired after reading “Smitten”! 😉
Dr. L also uses a rather lengthy quote from Lost in Space. But I don’t think we should tell Lost in Space about his appearance in any Hall of Fame, because Lost in Space might get a big head if he finds out Dr. L has been quoting him.
Hot tip for the morbidly curious: the LIS quote can be found at 7.10.
The only thing Dr. L could quote me about would be how limerence felt upon first glimmer. I’ve mentioned this numerous times throughout my time here.
Cupid didn’t just shoot a silly little arrow at my heart. He thrusted an entire meteorite at me. It’s the best comparison I can make to how it made me feel internally towards LO. I swear I’ve never been the same since.
“Yeah they’re sharing a drink they call loneliness but it’s better than drinking alone.”
Adam,
For you today … and for anyone else that remembers the LwL / Amoors Inn Christmas 2024 send up of this song:
https://youtu.be/gxEPV4kolz0?si=Wgr4T_pAKp3kLjCi
The Cow Speaks to the Child
Evan Gill Smith
There’s no me without you,
says the cow in the sunlight
being looked at, being drawn
by the child with crayons.
Is the hill an almond? the child
wants to know. Is life irrefutable?
The start of ‘me’ is the start of
the ending of ‘you.’ See that hole
in your sock where
the cold can get through?
The child’s toe sticks
through the hole now.
Some philosophers grow ulcers
from eating loneliness.
There’s not much we know.
The cow’s tongue smacks its lips.
The child fills in its spots
with blue crayon and silence.
A dragonfly or not.
I See You in the Field of My Mind Baby Moo Cow
Matthew Siegel
Your look makes me want to jump off the roof
of the modern art museum. How am I supposed
to tell you about my life? Yesterday I saw a turtle
eat a dandelion flower up close. I cannot say what
this might mean to you. It was on my phone,
which is where I’ve been living lately. I can’t expect
you to understand. I cry openly and you stare at me
with big wet cow-eyes. I tell you what the abyss is like.
I heard breathing. It was my own. I wasn’t terrified.
Loneliness binds me to myself but I use my phone
as a wedge, use it to keep myself from touching who
I am. Nobody wants to grow up, not even children.
They just want to be taller because they hate being
looked down upon. What is it we see when we turn
and look back? Salt? Pepper? I’ll take both. No more
questions. All I want is to sit in this field with you,
little cow, this field I built in my mind. I pet you, make
little noises. You try to move away but I hold on to you,
I throw my arms around your neck. You drop
your dark head, continue chewing what you chew.
The Dreamer
Dulcie Deamer
The wave yearns at the cliff foot: its pale arms
Reach upward and relapse, like down-dropped hands;
The baffled tides slip backward evermore,
And a long sighing murmurs round the sands . . .
My heart is as the wave that lifts and falls:
Tall is the cliff—oh! tall as that dim star
That crowns its summit hidden in a cloud—
Tall as the dark and holy heavens are.
The sad strange wreckage of full many ships
Burdens the bitter waters’ ebb and flow:
Gold diadems, like slowly falling flames,
Lighten the restless emerald gulfs below;
And withered blossoms float, and silken webs,
And pallid faces framed in wide-spread hair,
And bubble-globes that seethe with peacock hues,
And jewelled hands, half-open, cold and fair.
Sea creatures move beneath: their swift sleek touch
Begets sweet madness and unworthy fire—
Scaled women—triton-things, whose dark seal eyes
Are hot and bloodshot with a man’s desire.
Their strange arms clasp: the sea-pulse in their veins
Beats like the surf of the immortal sea—
Strong, glad and soulless: elemental joys
Bathe with green flame the sinking soul of me.
Downward and down—to passionate purple looms,
Athrill with thought-free, blurred, insatiate life,
Where the slow-throbbing sea-flow sways like weed
Dim figures blended in an amorous strife—
I am enclasped, I sink; but the wave lifts,
With all its freight of treasure and of death,
In sullen foamless yearning towards the height
Where the star burns above the vapour-wreath;
And a deep sob goes up, and all the caves
Are filled with mourning and a sorrow-sound.
The green fire fades: I rise: I see the star—
Gone are the triton arms that clipped me round.
Hope beats like some lost bird against the cliff—
The granite cliff above the burdened wave,
Whose fleeting riches are more desolate
Than gems dust-mingled in a nameless grave . . .
When all the wordless thirsts of Time are slaked,
And all Earth’s yearning hungers sweetly fed,
And the Sea’s grief is stilled, and the Wind’s cry,
And Day and Night clasp on one glowing bed—
Oh! in that hour shall clay and flame be blent—
Love find its perfect lover, breast on breast—
When dream and dreamer at the last are one,
And joy is folded in the arms of jest.
Life
Edith Wharton
1862 –1937
Life, like a marble block, is given to all,
A blank, inchoate mass of years and days,
Whence one with ardent chisel swift essays
Some shape of strength or symmetry to call;
One shatters it in bits to mend a wall;
One in a craftier hand the chisel lays,
And one, to wake the mirth in Lesbia’s gaze,
Carves it apace in toys fantastical.
But least is he who, with enchanted eyes
Filled with high visions of fair shapes to be,
Muses which god he shall immortalize
In the proud Parian’s perpetuity,
Till twilight warns him from the punctual skies
That the night cometh wherein none shall see.
Snow Moon
Sven Rhoads
Been seeking a face I’ve seen in dreams
And from my birth you’ve always been there
Encased in the frost of security
Where no demons would even care
Been searching for reason in crimson streams
And always you’ve been watching me
Wandering alone through eternity
For the one who will set me free
I see colors across the sky
Among this frozen world
Snow moon by my side
Lighting the darkest reaches
I see the smile in the fire
Inside where eyes can’t see
Snow moon sitting on high
Guiding me where I long to be
Been wanting a place to call my home
And you have always lead the way
Every flake that comes to call
Is a moment to forge better days
The name I hear in the wind
The face I’ll never forget
The voice that constantly sings
From the first day that we met
The light that welcomed me
The baptism of icy water
The essence that made me see
All the beauty around each corner
The Full Snow Moon
The full snow moon will rise to see
what once were fields of hay,
She’ll gaze upon the barren rows,
snowed in from yesterday.
She’ll share her night with stars ablaze,
yet spreading little heat
To scarecrow, guarding fallow patch,
they’ll come as faint relief.
Where gobblers swarmed the woodland’s edge,
now nothing’s in its prime.
She’s much too late for deer and fawn
they’re bedded down this time.
O’er peaks she’ll rise then wander on
though smaller still as bright.
She’ll gaze upon the snow packed trees,
and shine the owls in flight.
In valley low the sleepy town,
dreams sweet of Summertime,
Yet steeple bells still glisten gold,
protected, they still shine.
The steam, now frozen in the lake,
bespeaks what used to grow.
The midnight dew – oppressive frost,
takes hold of all exposed.
Before the dawn she still must prod
the farmer from his dreams.
There’s cows to milk, the pigs need corn,
the work of winter scenes.
Then reverently she’ll shine her last
and leave behind the chill.
A glowing ball of vivid orange
she’ll set beyond the hill …
© 2008 Joy A Burki-Watson
Winter Moon
by Charles Nevers Holmes
Brightly the moon like a jewel is beaming,
White in the east, o’er a lone landscape gleaming,
Over the meadows and over the snow,
Glimmering, shimmering, silvery glow.
Low in the east, when the gloaming is ending,
Slowly this white winter moon is ascending,
Looming so large and appearing so nigh,
Satellite framed by a star-spangled sky.
High in the sky, with soft radiance teeming,
Nigh to the time when men, women, are dreaming,
Weird is her splendour on valley and hill,
Cold is her gleam upon river and rill.
Brightly the moon like a jewel is shining,
White in the west she is slowly declining;
Beautiful Moon!
Which beams gorgeous and grand
Over the homes of our own native land.
Brother
I’m thinking that all the $hit that’s been happening in the last four months or so is God testing me like Job. So I can come out stronger in the end. It’s just hard now. But I’m determined to get through this. I’ve got be strong for Momma. I can’t let her see me coming apart inside. I can’t let our son see me this way either.
I’m trying to practice Miss Snow’s stoicism and not let things I can’t control drag me down into the abyss. And concentrate on the things I can control in my life. And not feel ashamed to accept help from others. I just don’t want to be a burden.
The LwL community has been more than I could ever expect with their support. I miss Frederico and Miss Nisor. They always knew the right words. As so many of you still here do.
I successfully filed my UI case while I try to look for another job. So I’m not too worried about finances because I do want to work.
Thank you all for your support and kind words.
MJ, Momma introduced me to this song some time ago and I weirdly feel comfort in it as I try and find my purpose again as a father, husband and provider. Not sure why ….
Whose Gonna Fill Their Shoes — George Jones
https://youtu.be/vxHjRqnY7zA?si=kKph1cBCLSo6SWqP
You’re welcome Brother. I’m having my share of struggles too lately. I appreciate your friendship and anyone here who has shared with me over the years. The non-judgemental tone this forum takes is a reason I stay around.
Dear Adam:
I can only offer you words of love and kindness. I wish I knew how to get you a new job.
Dear Adam,
You sound like you’ve made up your mind to get through this and that’s so cool to hear. You’ve had an awful lot on your plate and I have been worrying a bit about you but you are sounding stronger today!
You know that people love to help, if they can, right? Like its actually a privilege to help someone out, especially when its someone you care about. So lap up any help that you can get right now and you can always pay it back later when someone is in need of your help.
You are a very good man, I wish you would believe that a little more.
All of my fingers and toes are crossed for an uptick in luck and whatever the Greater Power can do to improve things for you and Momma. Sending MAJOR virtual hugs from across the pond.
Bx
Bewitched
My sister in law (my wife’s sister) just called and is sending us money. Momma told her I felt guilty accepting help. And my sil told me (Momma had us on speaker phone) “I don’t care if you want it or not we are sending it to you so swallow your pride you stubborn old man.” Which is funny because my sil is older than me and my bil (her husband is even older than her and me.) I do love her but damn she knows how to rile me up. Accepting help is difficult for me. But I have to accept it for the sake of my family and forgo my pride. Thank you for your kind words. I feel like a good man now but I’ll try to.
I’m looking forward to our dance together Dear Norma.
Brother thanks for being here for me.
You’re welcome Friend,
Keep looking for work search. Something will come up. No its never easy and it would have been nice had your prior company inform before laying you off. You also should be able to file for unemployment no??
Yeah I’ve already filed my unemployment case and my previous employer isn’t fighting it. So we should be good. I just feel so purposeless. And when I feel purposeless I want to check in on LO but I haven’t. I’ve been occupying my mind with finding new work and projects I’ve been meaning to get to in the home. And that helps. And walks with music in my ears. Hope that your father and you are doing well. You truly are my brother from another mother. I’m glad fate met us together even if the commonality wasn’t favorable. Dr L and Mrs L are truly saints for us misguided limerents.
He is doing ok but never great. I’m trying not to be angry but some days are rough. Work keeps me busy and I try to keep a good balance. Things have improved with LF a little and my other co-worker friend is nice to be around.
We’re just being friendly at the moment. I’m not really all that emotionally invested yet, but I could be, if she would just keep coming out of her shell a little more. She’s definitely avoidant type. Somehow I just keep finding them, lol..
As for LO, I think she’s back on day shift. Haven’t seen her in awhile and a couple of her posts awhile back were about her hating working nights. I don’t really blame her though. Its not for everybody.
Adam, I’m sorry that you were laid off. I hope you find a job that pays well and that you like.
I LOVED reading that you had contact with your parents. THAT IS GOOD NEWS! How is it going?
In my church, we have a system in place to help people when they need it. Everyone fasts for two meals once a month and then donates what they would have spent on those meals to a “fast offering” fund. Those funds are used to help people in the congregation when something happens like a layoff. Maybe your church has a similar program.
Best wishes!
Miss Lovisa
Good to hear from you again. I miss you being here.
I’m trying to get up the courage to call my sister who I haven’t talked to in years. It’s funny how things like this make you remember what’s important in life. I talked to my brother in law yesterday because my sister was working at the time I texted her.
We’ve got food and what not but no transportation. Our oldest boy and his roommate are going to help me get my wife’s car running so I can start applying for jobs. So between unemployment and money we have and me wife’s and my own family willing to help, we’ll be ok.
I’m gonna reach out to church via their website so they know why I’ve missed services. But thankfully I can watch the pastors past sermons on their website too.
I hate asking for help but everyone keeps giving it to us. I should be able to do this on my own. My family depends on me. And I can’t. And it feels awful.
Adam, I hate asking for help, too. It is humbling to be on the receiving end of charity. I’m glad that you have resources and a plan. I hope this struggle leads to stronger family connections.
I don’t have anyone else to talk to, so I am going to talk to you guys.
I am disabled and rely on three small sources of income. The smallest of these is my alimony. All three payments come in like clockwork every month, but this month, the alimony was MIA. I hate having to contact my Ex for anything. He and I rarely communicate. He can be very unkind at times.
Anyway, I was wondering if he had suddenly decided to cut me off? I had all sorts of scenarios going through my head.
I e-mailed him and asked him if there was a problem? He wrote back within two hours and sent the payment. Turns out, he’s on a vacation and thought he had it set up for an automatic payment, but it didn’t go through for some reason.
I am reminded of Occam’s Razor–the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
I know that he travels constantly, so was not surprised to learn that he is away until the middle of the month. You would not believe the catastrophizing fantasies I have been having. All incorrect, of course.
Dear Norma,
Catastrophising is something that I can relate to. I think lots of us can – especially when you throw LO into the mix.
But I think its great that you’ve looked back and recognised it, this time. Maybe catastrophising goes hand-in-hand with being an anxious person (something that also plagues me, so I can relate).
I’m glad this all turned out to be a simple and non-dramatic explanation.
And that you wrote a post that wasn’t about LO.
Nice one!
To Bewitched:
Thank you for your nice message. I was toying with calling my lawyer, and wondering if his fees were north of $650 per hour by now?
I am glad that I wrote my Ex as early as I did. He corrected the problem immediately.
Yes, I do have a life outside of LO. I just wrote a lengthy post about my liver. It’s captivating reading.
He he, you’re funny.
Thanks for the laugh, Norma. It lifts the mood and don’t we all need that, sometimes.
To Bewitched:
I try to be entertaining. I need to earn my keep around here.
I purchased the book on Audible and then realized they had to be a hardcopy. I purchased a hardcopy within the promotional time and it just arrived. I went into try to get the other promotional free chapters and it said the promotion has expired. Since I did purchase two versions of the book is it possible that you would please accept a late application warmest regards., Karl
Hi Karl,
Of course. Thanks for buying the book (twice!). I’ll send an email to the address used in the comment.
Best wishes,
Tom
Lady Marcia,
You got married in my first dream last night! 💍:
Marcia suddenly got married! The wedding was in a small village in France, and I arrived there late. You were 48 and looked the exactly same just as the mental image in my head (in your 20s). You were wearing a laced, heel-length white wedding dress with a white flower hairpiece). There were two groups over 20 people, crowded inside of a small farm house with just two or three rooms. The groom was absent when I got there.
I pulled you aside and asked why you got married so quickly. You said you could not wait any longer, (might said that the pressure was high). I asked whether anyone from LwL was there, you said a couple of women (two names I forget now) were there and I did not know them in LwL. None of your dudes/brothers was there, very disappointing. I couldn’t find anyone to chat with.
After I wandered in the two small rooms for a bit, I came outside standing on a top of a small hill. Then I saw your groom walking up towards the house. He was a 28, athletic Asian man with an army-cut hair! He looked macho and even insolent, I was shocked 😮. I couldn’t understand why you’d agree to marry such an uncouth man!
Then, when you went to attend other guests, I slipped into a bathroom in a messy utility room, getting ready to leave….
I woke up, it was 4:30pm, and rolled back immediately into 2nd dream:
I went to Paris and their subway was messed up that day, the trains were everywhere, delayed, docked in massive lines. I was asked whether I wanted to hop on a train to futuristic park (?). I hopped on it as the last passenger, and somehow landed in this super clean, huge Sci-fic building and saw a couple of young, very cold-looking men in doctor’s gown walking around. I wanted to run away….
Then in a big clean ward inside the building, I bumped into my favorite colleague from COO (she died of a cancer 11 years old in reality, I saw her a month before she passed in a hospital, very sad). I was thrilled. But she told me that her daughter (who has been living in Paris in reality and I visited her in 2017) got a cancer. So she’s spending the remaining time with her daughter whose head got shaved due to chemo, walking in and out of the ward. I again felt depressed… 😔
I can’t remember what else happened before I woke up and remembered it’s my French gf’s birthday today. I hope she has moved back to their old stone house after her hubby’s LO was “kicked out” over a month ago.
Snow,
“Marcia suddenly got married! The wedding was in a small village in France, and I arrived there late. You were 48 and looked the exactly same just as the mental image in my head (in your 20s). ”
I’m liking the second part of the dream. Where I look young. But why do I have to get married? Can’t me and this macho dude just hook up? 🙂
“None of your dudes/brothers was there, very disappointing. ”
Yeah, sounds about right. They’re all talk. 🙂
“He was a 28, athletic Asian man with an army-cut hair! He looked macho and even insolent, I was shocked 😮. I couldn’t understand why you’d agree to marry such an uncouth man!”
I want uncouth. 🙂
Sorry the second dream was depressing.
Lady Marcia,
My last night dream involved a cycle of possible life and death…
“I’m liking the second part of the dream. Where I look young. But why do I have to get married? Can’t me and this macho dude just hook up? 🙂”
I’m amazed at my own mental images of you (plural), they stay the same in my waking hours and dreams! 😳 I think one day if I meet you in person, I may be “shocked (due to unfamiliarity)” to the fainting point, when I’d really need some smelling salt… 😇
I was just transcribing my dreams as much as I could remember! In the dream, I asked you the exactly same question, “Why are you in a hurry to get married?” you replied you couldn’t wait any longer. In the dream I thought you might want to have babies soon, since you still looked in your 20s. 😀
“Yeah, sounds about right. They’re all talk. 🙂”
Even my dreams knew well a truth of your dudes/brothers … 🙄 I was upset for you at the wedding 😏
“I want uncouth. 🙂”
At one point I was thinking in the dream: I never heard that Marcia liked Asian macho young men, who looked like a soldier (at least no mustache), while you looked so vivacious and ladylike, he’s not a match! 😤 that’s probably why I ran away after throwing him a glance and before he reached to the top of the hill.
“Sorry the second dream was depressing.”
A dream is so often totally opposite of its realistic facts. I was glad to see my mentor colleague vivacious in the dream; but upon waking up, our last farewell 11 years ago made me sad again (made me depressed for weeks back then). It’s the worst to silently bid a goodbye to a dear friend in their deathbed – luckily not her daughter in last night’s dream.
I finished watching Henry Jame’s 13 mini dramas (“Affairs of the Heart”) last night. The last one, “Miss Tita” is so depressing (probably triggered my dreams), I like “Leonie” best, in which a play (within the HJ’s play) imitates and transcends the protagonist’s reality (of a LE story)…
While appreciating arts, one can temporarily “escape” depressive parts of life, ie. bad news everywhere, or a death on the screen or in reality. Only when creating one’s own “arts” visually or verbally, one can be lifted up spiritually, or psychologically as if death 💀 did not exist at all…☄️
Miss Snow,
“I think one day if I meet you in person, I may be “shocked (due to unfamiliarity)” to the fainting point, when I’d really need some smelling salt… 😇”
You’d be shocked because I do not look like I’m in my late 20s. 🙂
“In the dream I thought you might want to have babies soon, since you still looked in your 20s. 😀”
Looked in my 20s but was, in your dream, in my late 40s. The time for babies had passed. 🙂
“Even my dreams knew well a truth of your dudes/brothers … ”
Why would I care they blew off my wedding if I was getting married to a hot, 20-something man?! 🙂
“I never heard that Marcia liked Asian macho young men, who looked like a soldier (at least no mustache), while you looked so vivacious and ladylike, he’s not a match! 😤”
It’s not necessarily how I would describe my type … but I’m open to the idea. 🙂
” It’s the worst to silently bid a goodbye to a dear friend in their deathbed – luckily not her daughter in last night’s dream.”
Is the daughter sick irl?
“I finished watching Henry Jame’s 13 mini dramas (“Affairs of the Heart”) last night. The last one, “Miss Tita” is so depressing (probably triggered my dreams), I like “Leonie” best, in which a play (within the HJ’s play) imitates and transcends the protagonist’s reality (of a LE story)…”
I’ll have to watch that. I did end up reading “The Jolly Corner.” It’s not an easy read. Like Proust … long sentences, a lot of commas, a lot of subordinate clauses and parenthetical phrases. I really like the idea of the story. At the end, she tells him she’s seen his “other self” and pities him. And he’s resentful of that. And she says, “He isn’t you.” It’s a very ambiguous ending, but I like that.
Miss Marcia,
“You’d be shocked because I do not look like I’m in my late 20s. 🙂”
No, I didn’t mean that. I meant that my mental image of you might be quite different from your realistic look. I’m so familiar (attached to) chatting up with your mental image, but not your realistic appearance. So I may feel like seeing an alien when you actually stand in front of me, so “strange” or “dissonant” that I might pass out…
“Looked in my 20s but was, in your dream, in my late 40s. The time for babies had passed. 🙂”
Dreams are rarely logical, in which a woman might be able to produce babies even if she’s in her 80s or fly among stars like a spaceship…
“Why would I care they blew off my wedding if I was getting married to a hot, 20-something man?! 🙂”
In the dream, I felt we are all your friends; if I rushed to your wedding, they might be happy to attend it, too. But as I was walking from one room to another one, I was thinking, “even if they’re here, I still couldn’t tell — I’ve never seen them in person!” That’s why I asked you first, and you told me there were only two other female LwLers (in their 30s & 40s) present.
“It’s not necessarily how I would describe my type … but I’m open to the idea. 🙂”
That’s what I thought, your groom didn’t look your type at all. His appearance did not even fit in that French remote village❗️You must be in desperation to marry one! 🧐
”Is the daughter sick irl?”
Not at all! Healthy and still working in Paris as an engineer in managing water quality. She’s the only girl I knew who had a sleep-walking condition when she’s a kid (5-6 yrs?), due to her nerve system. It lasted just a couple of years but scared everyone around her (an older sister and a younger brother).
It’s said/rumored that you cannot, should not ever wake up a sleep walker in the middle of their unconscious “walking /doing things” (ie. weight lifting or swinging on a metal bar – Mom’s one classmate) or they’d be frightened to death.
“I’ll have to watch that.”
These 13 mini dramas are all about romance, a couple of them is a bit “strange”/bizarre… I like the most of them — their ideas and sentimentalities.
“I did end up reading “The Jolly Corner.” It’s not an easy read. Like Proust … long sentences, a lot of commas, a lot of subordinate clauses and parenthetical phrases. “
Wow, congratulations! I don’t like “ghostly” stories, even if it’s psychologically symbolic. I have little patience nowadays in reading or listening to Proust, except his quotes.
“I really like the idea of the story. At the end, she tells him she’s seen his “other self” and pities him. And he’s resentful of that. “
How did she see his”other half”❓What exactly this “other half” symbolizes in Corner? Jung thinks each of us has multiple facets – light and shadow; and one is constantly evolving, particularly through dramatic events like an LE.
I think that the most important is that ONESELF accepts one’s shadow partss— “other halves” and embrace one’s own multiple facets. Otherwise, one can’t integrate his/her self, and would have a hard time in building healthy friendship or relationship with (an)other.
“And she says, “He isn’t you.” It’s a very ambiguous ending, but I like that.”
So she’s denying his “other half”, which never went to Europe but stayed in America?
Miss Snow,
” I’m so familiar (attached to) chatting up with your mental image, but not your realistic appearance. ”
Hmmm … how I picture you … a slender Asian lady; about 5’5″, bobbed, black, shiny hair with bangs; small features; beautiful skin. Nicely dressed but not flashy.
“So I may feel like seeing an alien when you actually stand in front of me, so “strange” or “dissonant” that I might pass out…”
I hope there wouldn’t be that much dissonance. 🙂
“That’s why I asked you first, and you told me there were only two other female LwLers (in their 30s & 40s) present.”
That sounds about right. 🙂 As we’ve … um … learned on here … most of the male posters are only interested in women if there’s a little more to the friendship than friendship. So if I’m off with my young, stud lover … there’s no incentive for them to show up at the wedding. 🙂
“You must be in desperation to marry one! 🧐”
Maybe I just got a new type. Sometimes the men I find appealing can surprise me. If you had shown me a picture before I met them, I would have said, “Forget it. Not my type.” But meeting them in person … it was a different story.
“Not at all! Healthy and still working in Paris as an engineer in managing water quality. She’s the only girl I knew who had a sleep-walking condition when she’s a kid (5-6 yrs?), due to her nerve system. It lasted just a couple of years but scared everyone around her (an older sister and a younger brother).”
I’m glad she’s not sick. Sometimes sleep-walking can be psychological trauma.
“I don’t like “ghostly” stories, even if it’s psychologically symbolic. ”
I liked it, though it does make one yearn for the simplicity and directness of Hemingway’s prose when one reads James!
“How did she see his”other half”❓What exactly this “other half” symbolizes in Corner?”
It’s up for interpretation. Could be the person he could have become had he stayed, the person he will become in the future, the person he actually is right now or a part of himself he’s repressing.
” Jung thinks each of us has multiple facets – light and shadow; and one is constantly evolving, particularly through dramatic events like an LE.”
I think that’s what limerence does. It taps into a part of ourselves — or another self — that we’ve been repressing.
“So she’s denying his “other half”, which never went to Europe but stayed in America?”
No, she’s accepting it. I interpreted it as … she’s accepting the uglier parts of him, as the “other self” was scary-looking, missing fingers. And he was resentful that she accepted the other self because he can’t accept him. She saw his other self in her dreams. But, again, all of this is up for interpretation.
You said you liked when messages weren’t obvious in art. I think this story is a good example. It treats the reader as having intelligence. Not spoon-feeding a moral lesson.
Miss Marcia,
“Hmmm … how I picture you … a slender Asian lady; about 5’5″, bobbed, black, shiny hair with bangs; small features; beautiful skin. Nicely dressed but not flashy.”
The thing with appearance is that even if you have exact physical measurements, the person’s look could be an ocean apart from your imagination, because there is no visceral knowledge of the person. With the same set of feature description, you and I probably would get two different mental images of the same person — words paint different images in different mind or personality, and a variety of people can say similar/same words, especially superficial ones.
“I hope there wouldn’t be that much dissonance. 🙂”
I really pray so. 🛐 I mentioned that I traveled to CA and two continents to meet 5 posters in my chatroom (one from app) a long while ago, they looked so different from my mental images based on their words that I shot down that room afterwards. Later, I realized that I felt I was “cheated” to “attach” my emotions, friendship, and hope to “wrong/nonexistent” people.
“That sounds about right. 🙂 As we’ve … um … learned on here … most of the male posters are only interested in women if there’s a little more to the friendship than friendship. So if I’m off with my young, stud lover … there’s no incentive for them to show up at the wedding. 🙂”
Are you saying that male posters here all have interests in you “more than the friendship than friendship”? They’d not even show up in your wedding after getting acquainted and your help for so long? Isn’t that selfish or even “cruel”❓🧐 Friendship is so undervalued in the West, 😞 which my head still can’t wrap around it. *sigh*.
“Maybe I just got a new type. Sometimes the men I find appealing can surprise me. If you had shown me a picture before I met them, I would have said, “Forget it. Not my type.” But meeting them in person … it was a different story.”
I can be eclectic in tastes for objects or superficial friendships, not a desired BP.
“I’m glad she’s not sick. Sometimes sleep-walking can be psychological trauma.”
Her older sister has Down syndrome (with an 8 yrs old intelligence all her life), which might triggered her at a crucial age.
“I liked it, though it does make one yearn for the simplicity and directness of Hemingway’s prose when one reads James!”
I dislike Hemingway’s simplicity, either. We humans are much more complex; I’d rather read Henry James or Proust.
“It’s up for interpretation. Could be the person he could have become had he stayed, the person he will become in the future, the person he actually is right now or a part of himself he’s repressing.”
Yes, it could be one or all of them. It’s fascinating to have so many possibilities❗️
”I think that’s what limerence does. It taps into a part of ourselves — or another self — that we’ve been repressing.”
TOTALLY! I would not use “another self” here, but some of ourselves that are repressed or hidden unknown. My latest one triggered that deeply rooted cptsd and Longing; without getting rid of them — filling up that “hole” in the soul, I don’t think/believe I’d ever be capable of getting a healthy relationship.
“No, she’s accepting it. I interpreted it as … she’s accepting the uglier parts of him, as the “other self” was scary-looking, missing fingers. “
She still loves him and has an open heart/mind.
“And he was resentful that she accepted the other self because he can’t accept him. She saw his other self in her dreams. But, again, all of this is up for interpretation.”
That probably describes Henry James himself, it’s Jungian stuff.
“You said you liked when messages weren’t obvious in art. I think this story is a good example. It treats the reader as having intelligence. Not spoon-feeding a moral lesson.”
Yes, I enjoy such “elusive” stories at times with guesses and detailed analysis; while on other times, I like some ethical, psychological lessons just to relax my mind.
Miss Snow,
“With the same set of feature description, you and I probably would get two different mental images of the same person — words paint different images in different mind or personality, and a variety of people can say similar/same words, especially superficial ones.”
True. But do you have bobbed hair? Just answer me that. 🙂
” Later, I realized that I felt I was “cheated” to “attach” my emotions, friendship, and hope to “wrong/nonexistent” people.”
I’m not following you. I’m not sure how appearance would kill a friendship. Now, when I met that young guy for our date, I did have trouble making conversation. (I knew what he looked like already, having met him on one of those sites.) We had good conversations in messaging and texting, but in person we did not have good conversational rapport. There was something kind of hesitating and stilted. And I found his manner to be abrupt, which was off-putting. I could see that happening, if you met someone in person who you’d only previously known online or in messaging. Maybe you didn’t “click” as people. But if we’re friends and not dating, I don’t see why being surprised by what they look like would matter.
“Are you saying that male posters here all have interests in you “more than the friendship than friendship”? ”
It was a joke. I was kidding about the male posters on here. But I do think, IRL, that men usually only befriend women they have some sexual/romantic interest in. As a general rule. I wish that were different.
“Friendship is so undervalued in the West, 😞 which my head still can’t wrap around it. *sigh*.”
You are preaching to the choir.
“I can be eclectic in tastes for objects or superficial friendships, not a desired BP.”
Objects as in LOs ? It happened with a guy I used to work with, years ago. I’d known him for years, although we’d barely interacted. One day he approached me and started flirting with me, and it flipped the switch. I remember thinking afterward: Oh, that was interesting. I definitely developed a crush, but he was not my usual physical type at all.
“Her older sister has Down syndrome (with an 8 yrs old intelligence all her life), which might triggered her at a crucial age.”
Yes, maybe the stress in the family dynamic, having to care for a child with some disabilities.
“I dislike Hemingway’s simplicity, either. We humans are much more complex; I’d rather read Henry James or Proust.”
I disagree. When reading the James’ story, I remember thinking, several times: Will you just get to the point already! 🙂
“Yes, it could be one or all of them. It’s fascinating to have so many possibilities❗️”
Exactly. There are many more possibilities, I’m sure. Those are the ones I came up with off the top of my head.
“TOTALLY! I would not use “another self” here, but some of ourselves that are repressed or hidden unknown. My latest one triggered that deeply rooted cptsd”
I can relate. That’s what LO-lite did. I don’t really want to get into it here, but he tapped into something.
“Yes, I enjoy such “elusive” stories at times with guesses and detailed analysis; while on other times, I like some ethical, psychological lessons just to relax my mind.”
I like something that challenges me, like the James story, both in terms of reading it and interpreting it. And other times, I like something light and fun. Which is just enjoyable.
Speaking of which, I’m a little over halfway thrown the Lawrence book. I like his writing. It’s very repetitive in terms of the words he’ll use, even in one sentence or in a group of sentences. But it creates a kind of cadence as you’re reading. Although I will admit I’ve never read the words “flank” and “loins” this many times in my life. 🙂
Lady Marcia,
I finished watching the movie (2nd time) “Being Julia” and am feeling much better. The masterful, theatrical revenge casted on those vain, flashy opportunists is so delicious, which cheered me up. Masterful arts/performance do transcend reality (sometimes so ugly)‼️
“ But do you have bobbed hair? Just answer me that. 🙂”
No, I don’t. My hair is below the shoulder line. Bobbed hair never looked good on me (tried before).
“I’m not following you. I’m not sure how appearance would kill a friendship. “
Because I was making friendship with the person wearing my mental images of them, not realistic them — just like in LE. So when I met them, the dissonance was beyond my ability to handle. The rapport between person and me was so little/poor, that I just wanted to forget I had ever talked with them in my chatroom. Verbal “knowledge” of someone can be very different from visceral impression of her/him.
Also, back then, my reading/comprehending skills in English and the culture were very limited (hadn’t gone GS in writing yet), I could hardly understand between lines. So my mental images of them were quite off. I was not “cheated” by them, but my own wishful thinking and envisions. One’s imagination is very tricky/dangerous to believe/follow❗️One needs reality to support/back up one’s thoughts and emotions, unless one is writing a fiction or an epic poem from beginning to end.
“I could see that happening, if you met someone in person who you’d only previously known online or in messaging. Maybe you didn’t “click” as people. “
“Didn’t click” is the apt word choice here.
“But if we’re friends and not dating, I don’t see why being surprised by what they look like would matter.”
It’s not about pure looks, it’s if “they click” as potential dates, lovers, or just friends. There was low/no glimmer/click. Later, I did sort out of concrete reasons behind my disappointments with ALL of them.
My glimmer 👁️/click had initiatively logical/rational components, but I just didn’t know what they were immediately. I don’t have time to go over 5 sets of the reasons here. Let’s just say that personality and compatibility (with us) show on people’s aura and appearance (not physical features), especially in their eyes.
With your ladyship, I just imagine you as Helen of Troy if we don’t ever meet in person. If we plan to meet, based on Stoical rules, I’ll have to picture you as Frankenstein’s granddaughter🫂 , so I can’t get disappointed at all‼️💃
Please don’t be offended, you know I still CAN’T judge your appearance objectively… you can imagine me as a Frankenstein’s Asian granddaughter with bobbed hair… it’s all about subjectivity ❗️🤭
“But I do think, IRL, that men usually only befriend women they have some sexual/romantic interest in. As a general rule. I wish that were different.”
I sense you’re most likely right here, but there is always exception in any social matter, right? I know myself can befriend men with zero/little sexual/romantic interest (if the glimmer never took place), under the condition that they’re curious, cultured, humorous and erudite.
I so value and appreciate camaraderie (not ravels) at intellectual and artistic levels. But some men in the past just assumed or even insisted that I was interested in them more than a genuine friendship. I couldn’t convince them otherwise, even if I swore. Not sure if it’s due to their ego, or the belief that men and women want to befriend their opposite sex is only due to a sexual/romantic interest.
“I can be eclectic in tastes for objects or superficial friendships, not a desired BP.”
“Objects as in LOs ?”
Oh, no, objects as inanimate objects. As I repeated in the past, all my glimmer took place within the first 5 seconds and when I “saw” a striking familiarity in crushes’/LO’s EYES, as if I knew him from the long past or even my last life — the only “feature” shared in all my glimmers.
“I remember thinking afterward: Oh, that was interesting. I definitely developed a crush, but he was not my usual physical type at all.”
Physical type rarely played a big role in my crush; when it took place, I could not even notice if LO was missing a leg! But a “delayed crush” happened to me 3 times: 1st at HS (desk mate), 2nd college (he proposed), 3rd colleague (the bi-sexual man). They lasted from 1-6 months and nothing ever happened with them — no verbal expression, no hand touch.
Crush/infatuation could be such an illogical, mysterious human event/affair… A workable romance/relationship requires Glimmer, irrational and logical infatuation, but NOT LE addiction, which would harm all sides.
“I disagree. When reading the James’ story, I remember thinking, several times: Will you just get to the point already! 🙂”
I shouldn’t have said Henry James, whose work I haven’t touched for years. But Hemingway’s style is bare bone, could hardly arose my imagination in moods and emotions. Adjective and adverbs “paint” vivid pictures in the reader’s mind, I just “devoured them as snacks” since my middle school. Subclauses sometimes are indeed annoying.
“Exactly. There are many more possibilities, I’m sure. Those are the ones I came up with off the top of my head.”
A great book is a new window for an inquisitive reader’s 👁️ to view new possible paths in directions.
“I can relate. That’s what LO-lite did. I don’t really want to get into it here, but he tapped into something.”
Yeah, we talked about this before. It’s your own big task (w/o therapist) to figure out that “thing” and hopefully remove it eventually, thus no future LO would tap into the hurtful spot again.
“I like something that challenges me, like the James story, both in terms of reading it and interpreting it. And other times, I like something light and fun. Which is just enjoyable.”
I prefer listening to audiobooks nowadays, because they are like old fashioned oral story-telling, which all children enjoy and I still do.
“Speaking of which, I’m a little over halfway thrown the Lawrence book. I like his writing. It’s very repetitive in terms of the words he’ll use, even in one sentence or in a group of sentences. But it creates a kind of cadence as you’re reading. Although I will admit I’ve never read the words “flank” and “loins” this many times in my life. 🙂”
Which book of his you’re reading? Besides “Lady Chatterley”, and some of his poems, I haven’t read other Lawrence’s work, which is supposed to be socially rebellious and physically sensuous and sensual … am I getting the impression correctly?
I did another big hotpot shopping today, for Mom’s birthday next week. A cousin’s family would be in town for it and also celebrate the new lunar year – The Year of Fire Horse! 🔥 🐎, supposed to be a great leaping/flying year 🧨
Lady Snow,
“I finished watching the movie (2nd time) “Being Julia”
I just watched the trailer. Who would pick that blonde guy over Jeremy Irons? 🙂 It’s based on a work by W. Somerset Maugham, who of course wrote the quintessential book about limerence: Of Human Bondage.
“No, I don’t. My hair is below the shoulder line. Bobbed hair never looked good on me (tried before).”
But it’s black, right? I love dark hair.
” Verbal “knowledge” of someone can be very different from visceral impression of her/him.”
Totally agree.
““Didn’t click” is the apt word choice here.”
I know the feeling. And sometimes the people we do “click” with — I’m just talking about clicking with as people, as potential friends — can surprise us. But you have to meet in person to discover that.
” Let’s just say that personality and compatibility (with us) show on people’s aura and appearance (not physical features), especially in their eyes.”
I understand. It’s their energy and their overall presence.
“With your ladyship, I just imagine you as Helen of Troy if we don’t ever meet in person. If we plan to meet, based on Stoical rules, I’ll have to picture you as Frankenstein’s granddaughter🫂 , so I can’t get disappointed at all‼️💃”
Lol. That’s quite a big gap … from Helen of Troy to Frankenstein’s granddaughter. 🙂 I’m somewhere in between. 🙂
“you can imagine me as a Frankenstein’s Asian granddaughter with bobbed hair… it’s all about subjectivity ❗️🤭”
No, no. I picture you now with shoulder-length black hair and silky shirts with muted colors. Elegant.
“I sense you’re most likely right here, but there is always exception in any social matter, right?”
I think for women, yes. Women can befriend men and not have romantic interest.
I want to be clear in that it’s not like the thought never crosses my mind. With my most recent guy friend … I thought about it. I liked him. We were sharing a lot. I really did think he was going to become a close friend. But … there wasn’t enough physical attraction for me to want more. He’s not really my type of guy in terms of personality. Too passive.
“But some men in the past just assumed or even insisted that I was interested in them more than a genuine friendship. I couldn’t convince them otherwise, even if I swore. ”
I’ve had that happen as well. Only one male friend post-high school that didn’t try to push for more at some point.
“Physical type rarely played a big role in my crush; when it took place, I could not even notice if LO was missing a leg!”
I am the same way! If I glimmer, the man becomes beautiful to me, even if, objectively to the world, he isn’t. For some limerents, beauty seems to cause glimmer … that has never happened to me. That concept — glimmering for beauty — is totally foreign to me.
“But a “delayed crush” happened to me 3 times”
That’s a good way to describe them. “Delayed crushes.”
“I shouldn’t have said Henry James, whose work I haven’t touched for years. But Hemingway’s style is bare bone, could hardly arose my imagination in moods and emotions. ”
It’s been a while since I’ve read anything of his. But he’s always referenced as having a stripped-down writing style. The opposite of that — overwrought, overwritten — can feel like you’re walking through frozen mud as you try to read it.
“A great book is a new window for an inquisitive reader’s 👁️ to view new possible paths in directions.”
I agree. I thought the writing style was a bit much but I liked the idea of the story very much. The theme. And I liked the ambiguous ending.
“I prefer listening to audiobooks nowadays, because they are like old fashioned oral story-telling, which all children enjoy and I still do.”
I prefer to read things. If there’s a podcast, I read the transcript. I learn better reading than listening; for some people, it’s the opposite.
“Which book of his you’re reading? Besides “Lady Chatterley”, ”
Yes
“and some of his poems, I haven’t read other Lawrence’s work, which is supposed to be socially rebellious and physically sensuous and sensual … am I getting the impression correctly?”
I haven’t read his poetry. I’d say his writing is both physically and emotionally sensuous. Yes, he’s writing about the physicality of sex but all the emotions tied to that physicality.
“I did another big hotpot shopping today, for Mom’s birthday next week. A cousin’s family would be in town for it”
The same hotpot as before or a different one?
“also celebrate the new lunar year – The Year of Fire Horse! 🔥 🐎, supposed to be a great leaping/flying year 🧨”
What does that signify or mean?
Miss Marcia,
“I just watched the trailer. Who would pick that blonde guy over Jeremy Irons? 🙂 It’s based on a work by W. Somerset Maugham, who of course wrote the quintessential book about limerence: Of Human Bondage.”
If you love good plays, I encourage you to watch the movie (free on Tubi). Everything, including the deserved revenge, is done through elegant, poetic language, without any vulgarity. I so enjoyed it❗️(it was a long time ago when I watched it first time)
Yes, Julia falls in LE with that much younger blonde because she felt “dead” in her repetitious acting and stable marriage with Irons. But she fought back with her inner muse/counsel (played by Michael Gambon). She has a long term (suggested gay) friend (Lord Charles) who truly loved her all his life and caused social scandal. While she tried to seduce him again during her LE suffering — kiss him, he backed up and said (paraphrasing), “I have to play the other side.” I don’t totally understand what he means. Please tell me if you watch it.
“But it’s black, right? I love dark hair.
Yes, it’s black. Pure Asians’ hair is mostly black.
[ Verbal “knowledge” of someone can be very different from visceral impression of her/him.” ]
“Totally agree.”
As sensuous human beings, we are often impacted or influenced MORE by visceral knowledge, fortunately or unfortunately. We just can’t beat our brain chemistry or neural wirings.
“I know the feeling. And sometimes the people we do “click” with — I’m just talking about clicking with as people, as potential friends — can surprise us. But you have to meet in person to discover that.”
Yes. These five men and women I took time and efforts to meet seemed to have “clicked” somewhat or a lot on screen, but not AT ALL in person, not even as friends I’d want to spend time with, plus they are all in long distance.
”I understand. It’s their energy and their overall presence.”
No one has figured out what produced that Glimmer or click upon meeting someone new or “old” (from the screen).
“Lol. That’s quite a big gap … from Helen of Troy to Frankenstein’s granddaughter. 🙂 I’m somewhere in between. 🙂”
It’s the whole ironic point here: NO one knows how Helen of Troy and Frankenstein are supposed to look like, it’s up to each one’s taste, imagination and interpretation, ie. I have opposite appreciation of Sabrina to MJ’s eyes (I simply could not finish her song on stage with another girl, which clip MJ linked twice to Adam)
“No, no. I picture you now with shoulder-length black hair and silky shirts with muted colors. Elegant.”
I dislike silky clothes but mute-colored velvet (shirt /jacket /dress). I don’t like anything shiny, such as gold (silver is okay). I wear mostly cotton, linen, and washed/sanded—silk
“I think for women, yes. Women can befriend men and not have romantic interest.”
Women really CAN and often end up with women friends/companions in their old age.
“I want to be clear in that it’s not like the thought never crosses my mind. With my most recent guy friend … I thought about it. I liked him. We were sharing a lot. I really did think he was going to become a close friend. But … there wasn’t enough physical attraction for me to want more. He’s not really my type of guy in terms of personality. Too passive.”
He indeed doesn’t sound like your type. When I was still in COO, I had some platonic male friends from HS/College but I sensed there was always subtle male/female “tension”. After coming to the US, I couldn’t make any; no men, not even much older ones, was just interested in friendship only. 😕
“I’ve had that happen as well. Only one male friend post-high school that didn’t try to push for more at some point.”
The issue is that their misunderstanding caused embarrassment or ego wounds on their side. I felt so sorry and sad but just could not compromise or fake affections.
“For some limerents, beauty seems to cause glimmer … that has never happened to me. That concept — glimmering for beauty — is totally foreign to me.”
I literally have bumped into some very looking men (objectively) in the street, parties, public services, without feeling a thing, except, “Oh, that’s a good looking dude.”
“The opposite of that — overwrought, overwritten — can feel like you’re walking through frozen mud as you try to read it.”
I know what you mean. Nowadays I don’t have much time or energy to plough through the verbal “frozen mud”.
“The theme. And I liked the ambiguous ending.”
The same here. Some good quotes and poems could also inspire/stimulate the mind. They are broad and ambiguous enough to steer the reader to any direction based on their personal experiences and knowledge.
“I prefer to read things. If there’s a podcast, I read the transcript. I learn better reading than listening; for some people, it’s the opposite.”
Audiobooks get me through story lines; a close reading deepens understanding of some important points. That’s why I read 3 or 4 times of a poem before I post it.
“I’d say his writing is both physically and emotionally sensuous. Yes, he’s writing about the physicality of sex but all the emotions tied to that physicality.”
That’s most attractive in stories: tie emotions with sensual words and actions. That’s why touching, enjoyable sex comes with deep love (not just Eros) or a deep affectionate bond (to ME). By comparison, one- night or string-free kind is so boring and even “degenerating”, making me feel being used.
“The same hotpot as before or a different one?”
More or less the same. In our extremely cold winter this year, hotpot mostly desired meal that could warm and relax diners’ body and heart for 2-4 hours.
“What does that signify or mean?”
🐎 spirit/vigor is linked with 🐉 in COO. The term is, “Dragon-Horse spirit”. So in the Year of 🐎 , it signify one’s carrier or personal life could leap and soar like a 🐉 .
Among five earthen elements: Gold, Wood, Water, Fire, Earth, this coming year is 🔥 . Now, you can imagine what kind of 🐎 spirit it could fill in your life — you may indeed get married 💍 as I dreamt for you 😊
Typo: “The term is, “Dragon-Horse Essence & Spirit”. So in the Year of 🐎 , it signify one’s fortune in career, wealth or romance could leap and soar like a 🐉.”
Miss Snow,
“If you love good plays, I encourage you to watch the movie (free on Tubi).”
I’ll have to watch it.
“She has a long term (suggested gay) friend (Lord Charles) who truly loved her all his life and caused social scandal. While she tried to seduce him again during her LE suffering — kiss him, he backed up and said (paraphrasing), “I have to play the other side.” I don’t totally understand what he means. Please tell me if you watch it.”
He’s gay. He plays “for the other side.” He plays with men.
“Yes. These five men and women I took time and efforts to meet seemed to have “clicked” somewhat or a lot on screen, but not AT ALL in person, not even as friends I’d want to spend time with, plus they are all in long distance.”
I wonder what would happen if we all met. All the limerents. We may take one look at each other and say, “Forget it. ”
“Lol. That’s quite a big gap … from Helen of Troy to Frankenstein are supposed to look like, it’s up to each one’s taste, imagination and interpretation”
That’s true. In my mind, Helen of Troy is Elizabeth Taylor in the movie ” Doctor Faustus.” I KNOW you don’t agree. 🙂
“I have opposite appreciation of Sabrina to MJ’s eyes (I simply could not finish her song on stage with another girl, which clip MJ linked twice to Adam) ”
Her songs are catchy and she’s an attractive woman, but I don’t see any huge degree of musicality/talent or huge degree of personality/uniqueness. Now, to be clear, I don’t see that in Bad Bunny, either. He’s kind of the male equivalent of Sabrina. Attractive, young, fit. And he’s fun to watch.
“When I was still in COO, I had some platonic male friends from HS/College but I sensed there was always subtle male/female “tension”. ”
Yes, that’s a good way to describe it. I did feel a little of that with my guy friend. Or I did, before he disclosed.
“After coming to the US, I couldn’t make any; no men, not even much older ones, was just interested in friendship only. 😕”
Well, as we’ve read on here … the older ones have the same agenda. It probably didn’t dawn on you at the time that was their agenda due to the age difference.
“The issue is that their misunderstanding caused embarrassment or ego wounds on their side. I felt so sorry and sad but just could not compromise or fake affections.”
One of my male friends blew up at me. He actually yelled at me. I don’t remember much about it beyond that. With my most recent guy friend, I made an effort to be compassionate but clear. I know there was one male friend, years ago, I probably wasn’t clear enough with. In a misguided effort to be nice. But if someone sends you a long, rambling letter after you disclose (as opposed to saying they felt the same way) … that’s not a good sign. So you’d think he’d have some idea the feelings weren’t mutual.
“I literally have bumped into some very looking men (objectively) in the street, parties, public services, without feeling a thing, except, “Oh, that’s a good looking dude.””
Same. I’ll definitely notice a good-looking man. I’m also not opposed if he wants to get some friends together and put on a little show. I’m not opposed to a male revue. 🙂 But it’s not really doing all that much for me attraction/glimmer-wise.
“The same here. Some good quotes and poems could also inspire/stimulate the mind. They are broad and ambiguous enough to steer the reader to any direction based on their personal experiences and knowledge.”
I agree, and with what you wrote in another post: A lot of movies/TV shows/series coming out of Hollywood tend to beat the viewer over the head with a moral message. It wasn’t always like that. Decades ago, they made stuff for adults that was much more intelligent. But now, a lot of movies that are released in the theaters are made for teenage boys (the Marvel stuff, for example). Or if a movie or series is released on a streaming service, I believe it’s made with the idea that people aren’t fully watching it — they could be looking at their phones or doing chores — and similar dialogue is repeated over and over in subsequent scenes or similar scenes are repeated to make sure the viewer knows what’s going on. It gets tedious.
“Audiobooks get me through story lines; a close reading deepens understanding of some important points. That’s why I read 3 or 4 times of a poem before I post it.”
For poetry, I would definitely read it over several times. But the James’ story was like that, too. I had to read many parts of it at least twice to understand the meaning.
“That’s most attractive in stories: tie emotions with sensual words and actions. That’s why touching, enjoyable sex comes with deep love (not just Eros) or a deep affectionate bond (to ME).”
I think Connie and Mellors are falling in love, but I meant that Lawrence is very good at writing about being emotionally moved by the physical act of sex. The physicality is moving.
“More or less the same. In our extremely cold winter this year, hotpot mostly desired meal ”
If I just ate the proteins, would that be considered rude?
“The term is, “Dragon-Horse Essence & Spirit”. So in the Year of 🐎 , it signify one’s fortune in career, wealth or romance could leap and soar like a 🐉.” … Now, you can imagine what kind of 🐎 spirit it could fill in your life — you may indeed get married 💍 as I dreamt for you 😊”
That sounds good. My young, masculine, Asian dude. 🙂
Miss Marcia,
“He’s gay. He plays “for the other side.” He plays with men.”
See how culturally ignorant I am! I just guessed he’s gay later when there was a younger man standing next to him in the opening night of her new play.
“I wonder what would happen if we all met. All the limerents. We may take one look at each other and say, “Forget it. ”
That could happen, the disastrous possibility! (As it happened with my 5 chatroom ‘friends’). The worst is that when you get visceral disappointment, you might not even want to keep existing online friend/penpal connections. Right now, we are “intellectual” and “imaginative” 👻 👻 friends/camaraderies without visceral knowledge of each other.
The more one expects from others, the more one gets disappointed. That’s why I’ve suggested, as a Stoic, to expect/picture to meet a bunch of Frankenstein’s grandsons and granddaughters. If you’re truly psychological prepared to open your arms to them, then none of them could disappoint you! One can get used to look at Hunchback of Notre Dame, if you really appreciate his noble heart.
I just got an idea: Dr L or myself (everyone can recognize the one wicked witch of the East here) gives a costume ball in my town. You guys all show up wearing a costume (at least a facial or eye mask) so we keep our partial features/identity semi-hidden. The strict rule is that no one tells his/her real name or LwL handle name, but a fake first name.
Then we mingle, dance, eat and drink. If two or more click with each other, based on their visceral impressions (especially eyes) and chitchats, they can decide how to reveal their true identities among themselves after the party. If you can’t click with anyone else, you quietly depart and keep/continue your anonymity, existing friendship/camaraderie. What do you think 🤔 ?
“Her songs are catchy and she’s an attractive woman, but I don’t see any huge degree of musicality/talent or huge degree of personality/uniqueness. Now, to be clear, I don’t see that in Bad Bunny, either. He’s kind of the male equivalent of Sabrina. Attractive, young, fit. And he’s fun to watch.”
I’m really poor in assess singing quality; but both Sabrina and Bad Bunny are a bit unbearable to watch for me — there is “emptiness” in both their eyes… I’m sorry to say to you and MJ, but I can’t help it. 😔
“Well, as we’ve read on here … the older ones have the same agenda. It probably didn’t dawn on you at the time that was their agenda due to the age difference.”
How was I supposed to know, when I was striving with ESL and other life responsibilities⁉️ Some of the men were 30~50 years older… the grandpa generation. I never heard of the word, “pair-bonding” until I came to LwL in 2023!
“One of my male friends blew up at me. He actually yelled at me. I don’t remember much about it beyond that. “
Wow 😳 , that’s an excessive reaction! Whatever he had was NOT love for sure!
“With my most recent guy friend, I made an effort to be compassionate but clear.”
That’s really tough spot to be in. I had the similar case (one of 5) which made me going into a depression for 2 weeks (mentioned it here before). I felt chokingly sad for the dude… 😞
“But if someone sends you a long, rambling letter after you disclose (as opposed to saying they felt the same way) … that’s not a good sign. So you’d think he’d have some idea the feelings weren’t mutual.”
Was he a non-limerent? It seems (from LwL), most limerents are super sensitive to others’/LO’s words and emotional behaviors in all directions.
“I’ll definitely notice a good-looking man. I’m also not opposed if he wants to get some friends together and put on a little show. I’m not opposed to a male revue. 🙂 But it’s not really doing all that much for me attraction/glimmer-wise.”
I was rarely interested in dealing with them further, perhaps busy unconsciously in trying to find someone/something to fill that Longing hole inside me. By intuition, I knew/sensed these good-looking dudes could not “help” me in my needed “mission”.
“I agree, and with what you wrote in another post: A lot of movies/TV shows/series coming out of Hollywood tend to beat the viewer over the head with a moral message. “
Modern Hollywood is UNWATCHABLE, also too fast with too many actions for me.
“It wasn’t always like that. Decades ago, they made stuff for adults that was much more intelligent. “
That’s why I’m still watching those old, slow, mini plays, because their words/lines are mentally “chewable”. Sometimes, I had to pause, rewind, and think about what was said and why. Theatric /poetic /philosophical /psychological words/lines are so juicy and delicious.
“I think Connie and Mellors are falling in love, but I meant that Lawrence is very good at writing about being emotionally moved by the physical act of sex. The physicality is moving.”
It’s such a long while ago since I read the book. It sounds like it’s worth rereading it, for a limerent?
“If I just ate the proteins, would that be considered rude?”
Not at all! That’s the beauty of Hotpot — you can choose whatever you want to eat. It’s like a raw buffet, you select your favorite ingredients to cook in the boiling pot on the table and then dip in your own mixed sauce. Try to find a Chinese restaurant that offers Hotpot in your area and give it try; normally, you’d have over 20~40 choice.
“That sounds good. My young, masculine, Asian dude.”
But you said you don’t want to stand next to your man who is 20 years younger than you 😄
I’ve seen some movies made recently that were too choppy, hard to follow. 😛 One was about Tolkien, I believe. Also ones like Guardians of the Galaxy that everybody seems to LOVE but I found it boring and without depth. The most recent Little Women adaptation ruined the whole story. And it’s not just a modern problem: For decades now, I’ve preferred original versions of shows or movies instead of the Americanized ones, like Being Human or The Slap.
🦇 📕,
I haven’t seen any movie you mentioned here, I just did not have interests or time. The list on my Tubi is still long… I just like classical stuff and a bit of poetry, never got bored of them…
Miss Snow,
“See how culturally ignorant I am!”
I can help you with the cultural stuff. 🙂
“The worst is that when you get visceral disappointment, you might not even want to keep existing online friend/penpal connections. ”
That’s what I would worry about.
“The more one expects from others, the more one gets disappointed. ”
You’re preaching to the choir. 🙂
“I just got an idea: Dr L or myself (everyone can recognize the one wicked witch of the East here) gives a costume ball in my town. You guys all show up wearing a costume (at least a facial or eye mask) so we keep our partial features/identity semi-hidden. The strict rule is that no one tells his/her real name or LwL handle name, but a fake first name.
Then we mingle, dance, eat and drink. If two or more click with each other, based on their visceral impressions (especially eyes) and chitchats, they can decide how to reveal their true identities among themselves after the party. If you can’t click with anyone else, you quietly depart and keep/continue your anonymity, existing friendship/camaraderie. What do you think 🤔 ?”
But how/when do you do the reveals? What if some people got a bunch of reveals and some people got none? And how can determine a visceral response without being able to see peoples’ faces? I think you should just get together, talk, chat, have some drinks (no masks), maybe everyone has a number attached to them on their shirts … and then later, at home, you do some kind of online thing where you could check off the numbers of the people you want to further communicate with, and if they also check your number (kind of like Tinder), you would receive each others’ real names and contact info.
“but both Sabrina and Bad Bunny are a bit unbearable to watch for me — there is “emptiness” in both their eyes… I’m sorry to say to you and MJ, but I can’t help it. 😔”
I think he’s fun to watch. I’m by no means a big fan (I couldn’t name one of his songs), but the man does have beautiful skin. Perfect, flawless, cafe au lait skin. 🙂
“How was I supposed to know, when I was striving with ESL and other life responsibilities⁉️ ”
Because you’re a woman and they were men. 🙂
“Some of the men were 30~50 years older… the grandpa generation. ”
Sounds about right. 🙂 Men don’t seem to get that a big age gap is an issue.
“Wow 😳 , that’s an excessive reaction! Whatever he had was NOT love for sure!”
I didn’t mean to imply all of these male friends were in love with me. Some I’m sure were down for sex.
“That’s really tough spot to be in. I had the similar case (one of 5) which made me going into a depression for 2 weeks (mentioned it here before). I felt chokingly sad for the dude…”
Why? You think your rejection hit him hard? I felt bad when I turned down my friend, but the next day I felt awkward. And I kind of wished he hadn’t told me. The whole thing felt very heavy. I wish he had handled things differently. I’m not sure what made him think all that heaviness was a good thing.
“Was he a non-limerent? It seems (from LwL), most limerents are super sensitive to others’/LO’s words and emotional behaviors in all directions.”
Idk. But when he told me, I don’t think I responded, right in that moment. Or I didn’t say much. Which should have told him a lot.
“By intuition, I knew/sensed these good-looking dudes could not “help” me in my needed “mission”.”
I look at it as entertainment/fun. To watch the cute dudes. I don’t take it all that seriously. There was once this really attractive guy I worked with. He’d walk past the desks where I and a bunch of other female co-workers sat. Sometimes he’d lean up against the wall, like he was posing. He was clearly doing it to get attention. And I’d watch him. I wasn’t going to stop him, but I was never motivated to get up and talk to him.
“Modern Hollywood is UNWATCHABLE, also too fast with too many actions for me.”
There are some good shows, but you have to dig.
“That’s why I’m still watching those old, slow, mini plays, because their words/lines are mentally “chewable”. ”
Movies were in their heyday in terms of creativity after the studio system fell apart and before blockbusters changed the landscape. So the 60s and 70s.
“Sometimes, I had to pause, rewind, and think about what was said and why. Theatric /poetic /philosophical /psychological words/lines are so juicy and delicious.”
I do that if the writing is really beautiful. I ‘ll read it again. Or if there’s a great description of, for example, human behavior. Or a relationship between characters.
“It’s such a long while ago since I read the book. It sounds like it’s worth rereading it, for a limerent?”
I think so. It’s not a modern book. It’s slow. The pacing is slow. I don’t mind that, but some people do.
“Not at all! That’s the beauty of Hotpot — you can choose whatever you want to eat. It’s like a raw buffet, you select your favorite ingredients to cook in the boiling pot on the table and then dip in your own mixed sauce.”
What if I just want the proteins plain?
“Try to find a Chinese restaurant that offers Hotpot in your area and give it try; normally, you’d have over 20~40 choice.”
I’ll have to look for one.
“But you said you don’t want to stand next to your man who is 20 years younger than you 😄”
I don’t. I’m teasing about younger men. I’d prefer someone right around my age. Someone I can relate to generationally. Someone I don’t have to worry about looking much younger than as I get older.
correction: looking much older than
Marcia,
“I can help you with the cultural stuff. 🙂”
Yes, you’re the right person for me to really learn about particular American culture. European culture is slightly different. There is so much I still don’t know and wish to learn.
“That’s what I would worry about.”
In the past, it already happened to me almost every single time — 6 out of 7.
“But how/when do you do the reveals? What if some people got a bunch of reveals and some people got none? “
That would be the case in any social gathering. I think your number system is great/genius! So no revealing is done at the party but later online. 💻
“And how can determine a visceral response without being able to see peoples’ faces? “
Romeo and Juliet met at a costume party. One’s eyes (soul speaking), physique/posture/magnetic feels, talks/voice, smell, hair… will exude a lot at a visceral level. That’s why Venice had a lot of costume parties for people to mingle, yet “save face” in case one receive less contact/approaches. Not a full facial mask, just eye mask to give one a sense of safety and also not to reveal too much liking or/and disliking expressions in highly anxiety-driving social parities. 🎊
The problem is that host/hostess can’t prevent partnered limerents (stuck or bored ones) from attending. If they click or glimmer with other limerent(s), the latter could become a third wheel or a new LO… we don’t want to that, right?
“but the man does have beautiful skin. Perfect, flawless, cafe au lait skin. 🙂”
If a men eyes and aura are not attractive, I forgot to check or care everything else on his body. That’s just me. 🙂
“Because you’re a woman and they were men. 🙂”
COO education on this was/is somewhat inhuman, they didn’t teach even basic biological differences of two sexes at school (k-12), let alone psychological ones.
“Sounds about right. 🙂 Men don’t seem to get that a big age gap is an issue.”
Magnetic feels of older people are different from young ones. Our biological pair-bonding drive has its own 👁️ to select; while the logical mind does not help much. A lot of younger women settle down with older men were/are for other social/economic benefits. Two centuries ago in Europe, those wealthy, older husbands allowed their younger wives to take lovers semi-openly. The society closes one eye.
“I didn’t mean to imply all of these male friends were in love with me. Some I’m sure were down for sex.”
This Western culture of “down for sex” from the both sides still boggles my “culturally salvage” mind. My father even pushed me to try, I did; but just couldn’t get into it at all❗️
“Why? You think your rejection hit him hard? “
I think so, through his sad expression while bidding permanent goodbye (for me) and his entreating emails afterwards. Then my imagination pictured his possible sadness/despair in my psyche. As I said, one’s imagination could powerfully play tricks in all directions, affecting us positively or negatively. One’s mind really needs to ground on reality, not relying on one’s imagination/envision.
“I wish he had handled things differently. I’m not sure what made him think all that heaviness was a good thing.”
He thought “heaviness (of yours) was a good thing”, which induces guilty sense in one? That’s selfish and mean. That’s not even a friendship affection — care for one’s friends’ wellbeing at the price of resting/sacrificing one’s ego.
“Idk. But when he told me, I don’t think I responded, right in that moment. Or I didn’t say much. Which should have told him a lot.”
He’s either non-limerent or his ego was just unwilling to accept the hinted, stingy truth from your rejection 🛑 .
“I look at it as entertainment/fun. To watch the cute dudes. I don’t take it all that seriously. “
I could do that, too, if they’re from classes or work. But I made sure that I didn’t show too much interest/laughter, or they might misinterpret it. I had partnered bosses or colleagues hitting on me, quite uncomfortable.
“There are some good shows, but you have to dig.”
I have little time or energy to dig, unless some cultured 📖 acquaintance strongly recommends.
“Or if there’s a great description of, for example, human behavior. Or a relationship between characters.”
That’s the most attractive part. I also enjoys profound monologue of characters, if they are curious, learning, evolving ones, not much of tragic, fixed “hero” types 🦸🏻♂️
“I think so. It’s not a modern book. It’s slow. The pacing is slow. I don’t mind that, but some people do.”
I almost don’t read any modern, fast-paced books. 📚
“What if I just want the proteins plain?”
Then, don’t make any sauce for yourself. The center pot just has water or clear broths, which you can also choose from menu. 🍱
“I’d prefer someone right around my age. Someone I can relate to generationally. Someone I don’t have to worry about looking much younger than as I get older.”
I don’t worry so much about age/look gap, but maturity discrepancies. I’ve met older people who are less mature even than me — a “sickening bratty, entitled, egotistic kid” in the neighborhood. 😊
Marcia Darling 🫂,
I don’t have any residual or current dark LE going on, and those LE related merry-go-around talks tire me out. Lately only non LE related chats with you (and yours with limited others) have been teaching/learning “fun” for me.
So I’ll stop participating in LwL commentary sections soon, except reading DrL’s feature articles and watching his videos.
If you feel like chatting with me sometimes, please ask DrL for my email address.
DrL: please give Marcia my email, only IF she asks for it. Thanks.
Snow,
“If you feel like chatting with me sometimes, please ask DrL for my email address.”
This may work better. Go to the forum (address below). Create an account and then go to “New Topic” and create a new post and call it something like “My email for Marcia.” Then leave your email address. I’ll respond that I got your email address and then you can delete the entire post.
https://limerenceforums.com/
Snow: The forum is more private. You have to create an account and password. And you have the ability to delete everything.
Marcia,
I’m a member of the forum, but never went there to talk. If I create a topic there, you and other members (happen to be online) can all see it.
What I meant in my previous post is: you send a private email to DrL saying, “I’ll take Snow’s email address”, and then DrL will send my email address ONLY to you through his private reply to you. By doing this, none of our emails would ever appear here in LwL or the forum.
Then when you send me an email directly, it will surely land in my junk mailbox first. You’ll have to indicate, in the subject title (perhaps using our emojis), it IS from Marcia (so many junk mails each day, using emojis or my first/last name 😠 )
Got it?
Marcia,
I left an email message with DrL; you can fetch it (from DrL directly) whenever you’re ready.
Thank you again, DrL!
Snow,
I’m not really comfortable sending him a request to exchange our email addresses. I’m assuming he’s busy.
If you want, I can put my email address in a post on the forum. I have one that doesn’t have my name in it.
And the forum is not busy at all these days. Maybe 5 people post. The post is only going to be up for a short time, anyway, before it would be deleted.
Marcia,
Okay. I’ll be at the forum waiting and let you know immediately once I get it. Thanks.
I meant I’m there now… waiting…
What about a private chat on the forum instead of posting it to everyone?
Snow, before you leave, I just wanted to mention I’ve been working through George Sand’s fascinating autobiography. 🙂
🦇 📕,
You can do private chat in the forum? How?
Wow, you’re reading George Sand’s autobiography? 👏 what’s more fascinating part to you?
I have to get off here (I’m OCD, addicted), in order to tackle my book list, even just movie and documentary list on Tubi.
Snow,
Ok. I posted it.
Marcia,
I already sent you an email from my private, previous school account. Please check it!
❄️ 🐦🔥
Thanks Dear
I’ll hit you up sometime..
😂😂😂
Mj,
The only men who call women “dear” are old. You are so not hip. This won’t help you with the young babes. 😀
I’m not actually sure how to do private chats; I just know I’m in one. 🙂 Somebody else started it.
I’m almost halfway through the book. I’m not a fast reader, especially with dense writing. But the stories of her father, especially his relationship with his mother, have interested me; it’s a shame he was killed so young, only 30. He was talented and brave and very loving, especially of his mother and his wife and children. At least, that is the picture George/Aurore has of him. 🙂 And of course there are the stories of his mother after the Revolution, when she was restricted and under suspicion and imprisoned for some time. Now it’s on to Aurore’s childhood, and her imagination that reminds me of the fantasy worlds I went into as a child, too.
Thanks Ladyship.. I’ll keep it in mind.
“Old, wise and sexy.”
Think you should get me a shirt with that imprinted on it for my bday. You have 4 days.. 😆
MJ,
“‘Old, wise and sexy. ‘ Think you should get me a shirt with that imprinted on it for my bday.”
Is it your birthday in four days? I’m sorry. 🙂
I’m not getting a shirt printed with that ridiculousness on it. It’s an oxymoron, my friend. A contradiction in terms.
You know that better than anybody. You’re the one who likes the young things. 🙂
Yeah just in time. AARP sent me a membership request and if I join now I can get a free cooler tote bag.
You bring yours and I’ll bring mine and we can share ice coffee together..
😆
And since when did you forget Valentines Day is my bday? You’ve always known that. Its the one main thing LO and I have in common. She’ll be 31 in 4 days.
Always and forever. A 24 year age-gap.
Awww. 🥰😆😂
“Always and forever. A 24 year age-gap.
Awww. 🥰😆😂”
Yeah. Every woman’s signing up for that. Let me tell you. 🙂
Now you know why I am Lwls all time most crying man ever..
😭💦💦🪣
I’ve just watched Dr. L’s latest YT video: “Crazy Dreams: 7 signs of toxic limerence (and how to fix it)”.
Watch the video, people. It’s seriously good. Dr. L’s insights just keep getting sharper and sharper. The video is also studded with quotes from people who may have been members of LwL at some point, including … drumroll … Nisor! (Are you paying attention, Adam? You were good mates with the lovely Nisor). 😜
Bombshell insight: “Reward-seeking becomes relief-seeking”. I believe this is what past reader Beth was trying to say when she spoke about feeling like she needed her LO “on a cellular level”. (I.e. her initial desire for reward had turned into a need for relief aka craving).
In recent days, as is my habit, I’ve been keeping an eye on r/limerence, too. David/Shiverypeaks writes that limerence “is just supposed to be a vocabulary word for the kind of love that leads to a lovesickness”.
Full marks. in other words. to Limerent Emeritus, Jaideux, and Mila. I think they’re the only three readers I’m aware of who have consistently gotten the definition of limerence even somewhat close to correct. 😉
Critic
Leonard Bacon
Why am I better than all other men?
I do not have to prove it. I admit it.
Here is the nail, and I am here to hit it.
A blow that glances somewhat now and then.
With pure intention I take up the pen
That writes the truth, if any ever writ it.
Venom is vulgar. I decline to spit it.
Still if I must—Well, nine times out of ten
I do. I am tired. That book must be a bore.
Jones wrote it. He was rude to me at lunch,
And nobody quite likes him in our bunch.
Smith said he liked my novel. In my bones
I feel that I like Smith. But more and more
My conscience tells me to eviscerate Jones
Oh, oh, you will be sorry for that word!
Edna St. Vincent Millay
1892 –1950
Oh, oh, you will be sorry for that word!
Give back my book and take my kiss instead.
Was it my enemy or my friend I heard,
“What a big book for such a little head!”
Come, I will show you now my newest hat,
And you may watch me purse my mouth and prink!
Oh, I shall love you still, and all of that.
I never again shall tell you what I think.
I shall be sweet and crafty, soft and sly;
You will not catch me reading any more:
I shall be called a wife to pattern by;
And some day when you knock and push the door,
Some sane day, not too bright and not too stormy,
I shall be gone, and you may whistle for me.
I find I have no one to talk to about this, so I am posting here. This concerns my closest female friend who I talk to almost every day. She and I don’t have much in common, but we have formed a strong friendship.
I have been worrying about her health, since she neglects herself in favor of taking care of her pets. She finally took herself to the hospital, where they promptly admitted her with heart failure.
She is 62 and obese. I am very concerned. She has fluid leaking from her ankles, and one of her legs has turned purple.
I am so grateful she is finally in the hospital, but I worry about how much damage she may have caused herself by neglecting her health. She does not smoke or drink.
I am not tempted to text LO, although he may actually know something about this, since his mother also has heart issues.
However, I am not willing to take the chance of having him say something that might inadvertently make the situation worse. I don’t know what that would be exactly. I don’t think he means to be unkind, but he doesn’t know how to be comforting.
How horrible! 🙁 Fluid leaking—??!! I hope they can help her. 🙁
To Serial:
As terrifying as this sounds, apparently it’s a “normal” symptom for what she has.
Sorry to hear that ND. You’re in my thoughts..
To MJ:
She is going to discharge herself today so that she can go take care of her pets. I am too far away to help.
This is all very distressing.
Marcia,
I moved this over here.
“I couldn’t do it. I’m not “securely enough” attached. Due to my background. And I don’t trust your side enough that you wouldn’t walk off with the new person”
Probably wise 🙂
I know a former couple where she started to question their monogamous relationship, introduced another woman, and the man ended the arrangement and went off with her.
“Why would anyone need to get obsessive and weird over someone they can have? (To be clear, I’m sure there are feelings that develop with the secondary relationships.”
I have never looked into it really -(read most about it is here on LwL). But I understand there is usually a kind of rulebook about ‘who can have who, and in what combinations’. Whereas to me – and this may reflect my ignorance – the only fair way to enter a poly situation, is for everyone to be allowed to do what they want with who they want. And no version of it would work for me in reality, also because of attachment style.
“Limerence is maladaptive.”
Yes, definitely if it gets stuck. Often also if it doesn’t. But DrL reports his own case of limerence with his wife that calmed down and turned out Ok. He often says that wasn’t maladaptive.
“It’s based on a lot of hope and projection and the limerent’s “stuff” that has been triggered.”
That is my experiences of limerence too, and that of most of the posters we read about. But do we just see – on LwL – a sample of the limerents who are frustrated and bitter, that doesn’t represent the ones where it turned out better and who don’t have a need to be on here?
“Love is based on two things: a deep knowledge/understanding of each other and attachment, which is emotional interdependence and a sense of emotional responsibility for each other”
Yeah – the bigger problem of trying to look at limerence vs love is that people misdefine love too casually. The deep love in your definition would take a good while to develop. It is never there at the stage of initial attraction.
But when those on here who have studied the literature get involved, we always circle back to “limerence is a form of love”.
“you were friends with your LO. So you may have some of those components. You may have some of the knowledge/understanding”
I know her character well, and the interaction between our characters, which has a lot of good things going for it. But I don’t know if we’d click romantically / as lovers. And if we tried to, I don’t know if the good things would hold true. And so I could never claim love for her (unless you believe in a form of love for friends) – only that limerence tricked me into thinking it.
“The only time I could see it being defined as “one who got away” is if you were together and circumstances tore you apart. As in: One of you was called off to war.”
It’s a good point. The phrase is over-used. If they got away because we did nothing about it … well then they didn’t think there was anything they were getting away from.
“I can’t do that. I’d love to be able to have sex like a man. I cannot stress that enough. To enjoy it in the moment, enjoy it for what it is, say all these beautiful things that I really do mean in the moment, and then walk out the door and not want anything more.”
I understand your drift. Despite being a man, it hasn’t ever worked that way for me either. I can’t separate the physical and emotional. I need the emotional, to become interested in the physical in the first place.
[“I have a couple of coinages here too, that others now routinely adopt.”]
“What are they?”
LwL-ers; lim-brain (DrL’s term is ‘lizard brain’); Occasionally other posters have tried to credit me with stuff like ‘visceral death of hope’, but that’s all DrL’s – I just used it a lot a year ago.
“For me, as a single person, “nothing will ever happen” means I’ll never hook up with the LO.”
That is what I mean by ‘nothing will ever happen’ as well. In my case my being partnered is the main reason (from my side) that it won’t. I don’t blame the LO for it in my or any partnered limerent’s situation. It only ever ‘happened’ in my head.
“Secondly, can you get another job?”
There are ways I could – and I have thought about it. There are some possible ways without making a geographical move, more ways if I was prepared to. There is a lot wrapped up there. It’s not fair to ask SO to move (family and friends are local). And I don’t mind the gig I have at work. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t skip into work in oodles of joy every day – but I get by, and I’m not unhappy. I’d ideally want to think that something other than the presence of LO would trigger me to move when the time was right. Maybe that’s too idealistic though.
LaR,
“I know a former couple where she started to question their monogamous relationship, introduced another woman, and the man ended the arrangement and went off with her.”
You weren’t supposed to tell me something like this. You were supposed to say that she went off with the woman. 🙂 What you’ve written has just proven my belief in the … um … short-term attention span of your side.
“But I understand there is usually a kind of rulebook about ‘who can have who, and in what combinations’. Whereas to me – and this may reflect my ignorance – the only fair way to enter a poly situation, is for everyone to be allowed to do what they want with who they want. ”
I’m totally with you on that. I don’t get all these rules and regulations. And the endless talk of the rules and regulations. I know this isn’t exactly polyamory … but I have a friend who occasionally has threesomes with her boyfriend and another women, and she has rules about what he can and can’t do with the other woman. No, thank you. I wouldn’t put up with it if I were her boyfriend or the other woman. If I’m the second woman, why am I having to put with rules dictated by a couple I’m not even a part of? Why wouldn’t I just find some other guy who isn’t hemmed in by all these rules? I won’t get graphic, but what she’s saying no to is basic stuff on the menu. Nothing outlandish. She seems to be putting up some arbitrary line that makes no sense, considering what she is comfortable with letting him do.
“Yes, definitely if it gets stuck. Often also if it doesn’t. But DrL reports his own case of limerence with his wife that calmed down and turned out Ok. He often says that wasn’t maladaptive.”
Sorry. I wasn’t clear. I define limerence as the dark part. When it gets stuck. When it can’t move into a relationship. Not what Dr. L experienced. That’s, to me, two people falling in love and having it move into a long-term relationship.
“That is my experiences of limerence too, and that of most of the posters we read about. But do we just see – on LwL – a sample of the limerents who are frustrated and bitter, that doesn’t represent the ones where it turned out better and who don’t have a need to be on here?”
Yes, all of the people on here are experiencing the dark part. If things went well, they’d be off, happily enjoying their relationships. 🙂
“The deep love in your definition would take a good while to develop. It is never there at the stage of initial attraction.”
No, it NEVER is. It can’t be. What’s at the beginning is a lot of hormones and hope and projection of qualities the person may not even have … based on the brain scramble from the attraction.
“But when those on here who have studied the literature get involved, we always circle back to “limerence is a form of love”.”
I think it can be the beginning of love. Maybe the catalyst. But I think you can experience mutual limerence (the good part) and then not get to the love part. Because at the end of the day, there wasn’t much else there but the hormones and the projection.
“But I don’t know if we’d click romantically / as lovers.”
In what way?
“And so I could never claim love for her (unless you believe in a form of love for friends) ”
I do. At the end of the day, I don’t think it’s all the different. You’re just adding sex and commitment if it’s a relationship.
“If they got away because we did nothing about it … well then they didn’t think there was anything they were getting away from.”
I’m not sure what you mean. So my last big LO disclosed. I’ll be vague, but something along the lines of contacting me if something changed in his marriage. At the time, that felt huge (very huge), but when I look back at it now … who knows what would have happened if he left his marriage. There’s no guarantee we would have made it on one date, let alone wound up together. There’s a huge difference between expressing interest and actually showing up and following through. I don’t look at him as “one who got away.”
“Despite being a man, it hasn’t ever worked that way for me either. I can’t separate the physical and emotional. I need the emotional, to become interested in the physical in the first place.”
Yeah, but what does that mean, exactly? I think there are men who don’t really like super casual sex. I mean, picking someone up they’ve never met at a bar and hooking up an hour later. But does it mean sex has to happen within a relationship for them? No. They’re perfectly happy with some level of companionship and friendship (makes the sex better for them) but no real commitment. And to me, that’s still casual.
“LwL-ers; lim-brain (DrL’s term is ‘lizard brain’); ”
Ah, ok. I have heard that one. “Lizard brain” to me means your basest instincts. “Lim-brain” means … stars in your eyes. Am I off?
“Occasionally other posters have tried to credit me with stuff like ‘visceral death of hope’, but that’s all DrL’s – I just used it a lot a year ago.”
What does that mean? So right now I’m in this phase where what I already knew to be true intellectually is hitting me emotionally. Almost like you’re lying on the beach and you can hear the water, can hear it creeping up to you more and more closely as the tide comes in … maybe it hits your feet, then it hits your legs … until you’re completely enveloped in water. It’s not fun.
“There are ways I could – and I have thought about it. There are some possible ways without making a geographical move, more ways if I was prepared to. ”
I didn’t mean that you would move. Here’s an example … if you’re a professor and you have one university in your town … you obviously wouldn’t quit because of an LO.
But if there are other jobs in your field, in the place where you live … sometimes going someplace new shakes things up a little. A change is good.
Marcia,
“What you’ve written has just proven my belief in the … um … short-term attention span of your side.”
Yeah – I realised that … after hitting Send 🤦♂️
“She seems to be putting up some arbitrary line that makes no sense, considering what she is comfortable with letting him do.”
Yeah it’s obvious who’s wearing the trousers (or not) there …
“Yes, all of the people on here are experiencing the dark part.”
Yeah – while the discussions trying to philosophize on the different forms of limerence do interest me … bottom line, 99%+ of what we hear about is the dark version. Even when a poster starts ‘light’, it usually soon turns.
“Because at the end of the day, there wasn’t much else there but the hormones and the projection.”
Mmm. In support of the point, I have had better success with relationships where the beginning didn’t feel too limerent, than with the ones where it did.
But … we’re not always thinking that far ahead during the hormone flood at the start, are we? 🙂
[“But I don’t know if we’d [LO and I] click romantically / as lovers.”]
“In what way?”
Sex. You can’t know that if you haven’t tried. And as you’ve said before, the level of limerence doesn’t correlate to how good the sex is, if you (plural) do even get as far as trying.
[unless you believe in a form of love for friends]
“I do. At the end of the day, I don’t think it’s all the different. You’re just adding sex and commitment if it’s a relationship.”
I’m surprised you didn’t add something like ‘as your side will always want to’ 🙂.
“I don’t look at him as “one who got away.””
I think maybe why we were at crossed wires on this ‘got away’ point before is that by ‘doing something’, you mean DOING something (not ‘SAYING something’ like your xLO. And also not ‘SAYING NOTHING ‘ like most limerents).
In a nutshell, we can only say someone got away, if we showed them there was something there to stay with or go away from.
[“I can’t separate the physical and emotional. I need the emotional, to become interested in the physical in the first place.”]
“Yeah, but what does that mean, exactly?”
Typical pattern – I feel attracted to / crush on someone. I’ll then have a few dates with her if there’s mutual interest. NO conversation at that point like ‘are we exclusive?’ (too early – weird). Then we might get physical.
It’s been that pattern, not one where I take a stranger home on the night I meet them. There have been just a couple of exceptions ever. And even with those, I found myself wanting to get emotionally connected to them afterwards (it didn’t happen, in either case, and the wish to connect went away pretty quickly).
” “Lizard brain” to me means your basest instincts. “Lim-brain” means … stars in your eyes. Am I off? ”
No, you’re spot on. We can’t trust the Lim-brain!
[‘visceral death of hope’]
What does that mean?
The point when hope has died in your body/core, not just your brain. *Really* getting it – not just telling yourself you get it.
“So right now I’m in this phase where what I already knew to be true intellectually is hitting me emotionally.”
Yes – that!
“Almost like you’re lying on the beach and you can hear the water, can hear it creeping up to you more and more closely as the tide comes in … maybe it hits your feet, then it hits your legs … until you’re completely enveloped in water. It’s not fun.”
It’s not fun, no. For me, in line with that almost ‘drowning’ analogy, it brought on the most horrendous spell of tiredness and lethargy. I felt I was operating at 30% battery and dropping – almost too sub-par to go to work / do the basics of daily life. My hunch is that part of the problem is how limerence puts us on 150% battery all the time, for months/years; there is then a debt to be paid.
That was cheerful, wasn’t it?
“sometimes going someplace new shakes things up a little. A change is good.”
I agree. Now I almost feel the phrase ‘purposeful living’ marching the way of our discussion 🙂😬. I’ve been doing the odd new thing the last few months, in and out of work – that is ‘all mine’, and doesn’t involve either SO or LO. That’s helped – it’s too easy to forget to do it. I hope to have space to think about bigger work decisions this year.
LaR,
[“What you’ve written has just proven my belief in the … um … short-term attention span of your side.”]
“Yeah – I realised that … after hitting Send 🤦♂️”
I was kind of kidding.
On that note … Did you seriously think of leaving your SO during your LE?
“Yeah it’s obvious who’s wearing the trousers (or not) there …”
My first thought was of him and the other woman. Because I probably projected myself in that role. But then … maybe he wouldn’t be the goal. If the other woman’s goal is my friend … maybe this woman wouldn’t care what he was allowed to do. Maybe she wouldn’t care if he was there at all. 🙂
“Yeah – while the discussions trying to philosophize on the different forms of limerence do interest me”
Isn’t that kind of what most people experience at the beginning of a mutual-interest relationship? Some form of limerence or limerent-like feelings?
“In support of the point, I have had better success with relationships where the beginning didn’t feel too limerent, than with the ones where it did.”
Ding, ding, ding! That’s where I’m leaning, too. The acknowledgment of that. It’s a lot to get one’s head around. A LOT. Every level 10 I’ve experienced is always for someone with no long-term potential. And I don’t think that makes me unique. I think you’re pretty darn lucky if your levels 10s turn out to be good for you after the limerence dies. I kind of resent people who are able to pick good partners through the haze/crazy of limerence.
“But … we’re not always thinking that far ahead during the hormone flood at the start, are we? 🙂”
No, but I’m wondering if it just takes a certain level of emotional intelligence to override it. Tell yourself: Hey, I’m experiencing this flood of hormones, and it’s powerful, but that doesn’t mean I have to think it means more than it does (no, this is almost certainly not the love of my life) and I don’t need to lose my mind over it.
“Sex. You can’t know that if you haven’t tried. And as you’ve said before, the level of limerence doesn’t correlate to how good the sex is, if you (plural) do even get as far as trying.”
I don’t understand how you’d know you wouldn’t work sexually unless you’d tried it. Unless you’ve had long, detailed conversations about what you both like sexually. Which, personally, I think is a bit strange unless you intend to hook up.
“I’m surprised you didn’t add something like ‘as your side will always want to’ 🙂.”
Your side wants to add sex. You certainly don’t always want to add commitment.
“In a nutshell, we can only say someone got away, if we showed them there was something there to stay with or go away from.”
I think you’d have to be in a relationship with them for a while to determine if you were compatible to know if they were “one who got away.” Otherwise, it’s a lot of projection, hope, fantasy … the usual.
“It’s been that pattern, not one where I take a stranger home on the night I meet them. There have been just a couple of exceptions ever. And even with those, I found myself wanting to get emotionally connected to them afterwards (it didn’t happen, in either case, and the wish to connect went away pretty quickly).”
But did you want these women to be your girlfriend or did you want an FWB? Those are two very different things. That would include the women you went on a few dates with and then hooked up with.
I’m not knocking your pattern, but if I were to start dating again, I would do it differently this time. I would slow it way down. I’m not hooking up with anyone if we don’t know each other well enough or if it’s too soon to have the “what are we?” conversation. It’s too big of a dice to roll.
“It’s not fun, no. For me, in line with that almost ‘drowning’ analogy, it brought on the most horrendous spell of tiredness and lethargy. I felt I was operating at 30% battery and dropping – almost too sub-par to go to work / do the basics of daily life. ”
Yep. That is where I’m at.
“My hunch is that part of the problem is how limerence puts us on 150% battery all the time, for months/years; there is then a debt to be paid.”
It’s depression. You’re not going to get what you want. And you know it. On top of that, if you’ve accepted that you won’t get what you want, you’ve more than likely ripped yourself away from the source of the dopamine.
“I’ve been doing the odd new thing the last few months, in and out of work – that is ‘all mine’, and doesn’t involve either SO or LO. ”
But it doesn’t involve other women, does it? Sorry, couldn’t help myself. 🙂
“That’s helped – it’s too easy to forget to do it. I hope to have space to think about bigger work decisions this year.”
I wish you luck with both.
Marcia,
“On that note … Did you seriously think of leaving your SO during your LE?”
Hmmm. Define ‘seriously’ (I jest)
OK – I could sit here and fib in my reply, but what’s really the point? So yeah I did (lim-brain) think about it at times – which I find hard to admit ‘out loud’. But never to the point where I got really close to *acting* on it, or where my Exec brain lost the ability to fight against it.
It is hard to unpack my answer more without me getting verbose – and anyway you didn’t ask me to explain my answer.
“Isn’t that kind of what most people experience at the beginning of a mutual-interest relationship? Some form of limerence or limerent-like feelings?”
Well, apparently half the population (non lim tribe) don’t, and we’re talking a different language to them?!
[“But … we’re not always thinking that far ahead during the hormone flood at the start, are we? ”]
“No, but I’m wondering if it just takes a certain level of emotional intelligence to override it.”
I’d like to hope you’re right. But we wouldn’t know until it’s tested, whether being armed with all that knowledge and emotional intelligence is enough to overcome the flood. I think that’s different when you’re available than when you’re not, too. Say an LO has imperfections as a partner for me, that I have figured out. Can I resist the siren song of limerence when I’m partnered? Yes. If I’m single? Most probably not.
“I don’t understand how you’d know you wouldn’t work sexually unless you’d tried it.”
I don’t know that we wouldn’t – I wasn’t trying to say that. I just meant I don’t know either way.
“I think you’d have to be in a relationship with them for a while to determine if you were compatible to know if they were “one who got away.” Otherwise, it’s a lot of projection, hope, fantasy … the usual.”
For sure. Without that, the getting away is mainly in our head. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t feel real to us, mind you.
“But did you want these women to be your girlfriend or did you want an FWB?”
It’s a tough one because at the time I probably thought girlfriend, but with hindsight neither of those women were good compatibility prospects. And the FWB setup doesn’t appeal to me. They are either a friend (without B) or it’s the real deal. You may find it hard to believe but I dislike those grey swampy areas in between.
“I’m not knocking your pattern, but if I were to start dating again, I would do it differently this time … slow it way down”
That’s totally fair. We have to go with what we think works for us at the time. And you’ve got a good reason for feeling that way.
“Yep. That is where I’m at.”
I’m sorry. It sucks. Cut yourself as much slack as you can while you pass through it. It doesn’t last forever, just feels like it will. DoH is still a (necessary but evil) step on from the still-limerent stage.
“It’s depression. You’re not going to get what you want. And you know it. On top of that, if you’ve accepted that you won’t get what you want, you’ve more than likely ripped yourself away from the source of the dopamine.”
Yep. It’s like cutting what you’ve been using as your oxygen supply. Other oxygen exist but we forget how to breathe it properly for a while.
“But it doesn’t involve other women, does it? Sorry, couldn’t help myself.”
Very good your ladyship 🙂 As with any new group activity that isn’t signing up for some male-only club, there are females present (and males)! But no, nothing ‘like that’. Only in the same way we encounter both in our workplace, sports centres, coffeehouses, say.
LaR,
“OK – I could sit here and fib in my reply, but what’s really the point? So yeah I did (lim-brain) think about it at times – which I find hard to admit ‘out loud’. But never to the point where I got really close to *acting* on it, or where my Exec brain lost the ability to fight against it.”
It was a selfish question. I was just wondering if the partnered limerent every really thinks about leaving. Or if you always know you’ll never leave and you plan to go “right up to the line” and maintain your sideage. And, yes, please answer why or why not? Get verbose. I know you love to. 🙂 But do some basic editing to make sure what you wrote makes sense. When you get verbose, we know what happens. 🙂
So here are some basic reasons I think people don’t leave. Correct me if I’m wrong. Add new ones, etc.
1.) Love. Your SO is “your person” and, deep down, you know it. You won’t find someone who better understands you or clicks with in the same way, etc.
2.) Comfort. It’s too big a pain in the ass to have to look for a new place and move out and buy all new crap and divide up the assets, etc. (You’re not married, right, so you wouldn’t have to divorce? But do you own property together?)
3.) Fear. You could leave your SO and your LO could reject you. Then you’d have to go back out into the dating marketplace again. And/or the fear of being alone.
4.) Family. You don’t have kids, right? But maybe your families are entwined.
5.) Money. (self-explanatory)
6.) Insufficient temptation. LO’s pretty great, but not great enough. Not enough to rip apart your whole life.
That’s what I could come up with off the top of my head.
“Well, apparently half the population (non lim tribe) don’t, and we’re talking a different language to them?!”
I’d say most people experience some form of “falling in love” in the beginning. What I think separates the lims from the non-lims is that when most people, for example, get rejected, they move on a lot of faster and don’t get as obsessive.
“I’d like to hope you’re right. But we wouldn’t know until it’s tested, whether being armed with all that knowledge and emotional intelligence is enough to overcome the flood. ”
But don’t you have enough info now? Enough that if you glimmer at someone 3 years from now you could put the brakes on the process before things went off into the ditch?
“Can I resist the siren song of limerence when I’m partnered? Yes. If I’m single? Most probably not.”
But you haven’t resisted the siren song, have you? Aren’t you limerent? Haven’t many married/partnered limerents on here had repeated LEs? To me, “resisting the siren song” is backing away from the POTENTIAL LO before things go off into the ditch (a new LE starts).
“I don’t know that we wouldn’t – I wasn’t trying to say that. I just meant I don’t know either way.”
Ok. I’m not sure what your point is. I think I’m missing it. 🙂 I mean, in bringing the sexual aspect up at all.
“For sure. Without that, the getting away is mainly in our head. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t feel real to us, mind you.”
Yes, but if one is emotionally intelligent, doesn’t that mean they know it’s not real?
” And the FWB setup doesn’t appeal to me. They are either a friend (without B) or it’s the real deal. You may find it hard to believe but I dislike those grey swampy areas in between.”
I’m going to write that down. 🙂 Because sometimes there are members of your side who can have SEVERAL FWBs going on at the same time.
[“I’m not knocking your pattern, but if I were to start dating again, I would do it differently this time … slow it way down”]
“That’s totally fair. We have to go with what we think works for us at the time. And you’ve got a good reason for feeling that way.”
It’s not really my style. I’m really not “that kind of girl.” 🙂 I don’t really believe in the protocols of traditional dating. Or I’ve tried to dispense with them or go around them. In hindsight, I don’t think it’s an effective strategy for a woman if she has a soul. 🙂
“DoH is still a (necessary but evil) step on from the still-limerent stage.”
It’s not just the DoH. It’s the feeling of utter futility. I could reach out to him. Would he respond? Idk. I’m leaning toward no, but I don’t really know. But even if he did, what’s the point? There isn’t one now and even worse than that … there never was one.
“Other oxygen exist but we forget how to breathe it properly for a while.”
Not the same kind of oxygen.
“As with any new group activity that isn’t signing up for some male-only club”
You should be focusing on male-only stuff. Hang out at home improvement stores, for example. 🙂
“Only in the same way we encounter both in our workplace, sports centres, coffeehouses, say.”
And therein lies the problem. 🙂
Marcia
“Get verbose. I know you love to. 🙂 But do some basic editing to make sure what you wrote makes sense. When you get verbose, we know what happens. 🙂”
OK, I will. Now, to do that does create one of those questions I might tie myself in knots trying to answer, so that point may take a bit longer … I’ll most probably continue the rest of our thread later on, and tackle that part at the weekend.
“You should be focusing on male-only stuff. Hang out at home improvement stores, for example. 🙂”
Perfect – I should focus on becoming an expert at all forms of DIY (I am SO far away from that!). That’ll keep me out of harm’s way.
Here, we actually have something that used to be called “Men’s Sheds” (I think gender legislation means they can’t officially be called it anymore). But the idea is, a load of men go along, mess around mending things for the public good, and probably talk minimally by grunting. Kind of like “dull mens’ club” (I jest, if any readers attend anything like that – I actually think they’re a massively good idea for many reasons). I am about 15-20 years younger than anyone who attends them, but do you think I should sign up?
“…That’s what I could come up with off the top of my head.”
Everything up to there, I promise I’m coming back to very soon, when I have a moment to sharpen up my editing skills.
“What I think separates the lims from the non-lims is that when most people, for example, get rejected, they move on a lot of faster and don’t get as obsessive.”
Yeah, it doesn’t become the be all and end all. Perhaps even while they’re having the initial attraction, they might give off more of a ‘take or leave’ vibe than limerents would.
“But don’t you have enough info now? Enough that if you glimmer at someone 3 years from now you could put the brakes on the process before things went off into the ditch?”
Yes, I believe I do.
[“Can I resist the siren song of limerence when I’m partnered? Yes. If I’m single? Most probably not.”]
“But you haven’t resisted the siren song, have you?”
I was using myself as only an example here to say I think it should he easier for a partnered limmie, than a single limmie, to resist an LO who has that level 10 ‘danger’ we were talking about before.
“To me, “resisting the siren song” is backing away from the POTENTIAL LO before things go off into the ditch (a new LE starts).”
Yes. If we’re talking about future episodes I’d say I could see the danger and stop it at source. That’s easier than digging my way out of an LE I already dug myself into. It’s about not repeating a mistake now I understand properly the reasons and the outcomes.
“Ok. I’m not sure what your point is. I think I’m missing it. I mean, in bringing the sexual aspect up at all.”
I don’t know – maybe just more insight into the male mind 😆 I think we were discussing what I did and didn’t know about mine and LO’s compatibility, was the broad context.
“Yes, but if one is emotionally intelligent, doesn’t that mean they know it’s not real?”
I haven’t always found that emotional intelligence wins the fight with pure emotion. Look how many limerents start here in denial of what they’re going to have to face.
“I’m going to write that down. Because sometimes there are members of your side who can have SEVERAL FWBs going on at the same time.”
Are we talking men south of 40 years old here?
“In hindsight, I don’t think it’s an effective strategy for a woman if she has a soul.”
What isn’t? More traditional dating strategies, or trying to go around them?
“It’s not just the DoH. It’s the feeling of utter futility. I could reach out to him. Would he respond? Idk. I’m leaning toward no, but I don’t really know. But even if he did, what’s the point?”
Your final sentence says it all to me. Say you did reach out and he circled back round (I know that’s not what you’d expect, but come with me here). That would be opening yourself up to resetting the clock back to last summer-ish time and having to go through all the phases again even to get back to DoH. And I wouldn’t wish that on you.
“Not the same kind of oxygen.”
I get it – really I do.
LaR,
“I’ll most probably continue the rest of our thread later on, and tackle that part at the weekend.”
You’ve already failed the most basic test. There was really only one acceptable reason in my list to pick. 🙂
Oh, another reason that I can’t believe I forgot: Commitment. There are people who will not leave, under any or almost any circumstances.
“Perfect – I should focus on becoming an expert at all forms of DIY (I am SO far away from that!). That’ll keep me out of harm’s way.”
Just as I intend to join some knitting groups and book clubs. 🙂
“I actually think they’re a massively good idea for many reasons).”
I think men need men friends. Just as women need women friends. Men are going to understand you in ways a woman never can. You need that comradery. And what you’re talking about … the men’s grunt club … 🙂 … it is a good idea. You’re doing something for the public good. As opposed to getting together to … cruise and pick up women. 🙂
” I am about 15-20 years younger than anyone who attends them, but do you think I should sign up?”
Do you have a tool belt? 🙂
“I promise I’m coming back to very soon, when I have a moment to sharpen up my editing skills.”
I don’t have that kind of time left on the planet. 🙂
“Yeah, it doesn’t become the be all and end all. Perhaps even while they’re having the initial attraction, they might give off more of a ‘take or leave’ vibe than limerents would.”
You don’t think the average, non-limerent can genuinely fall in love?
“I was using myself as only an example here to say I think it should he easier for a partnered limmie, than a single limmie, to resist an LO who has that level 10 ‘danger’ we were talking about before.”
But it was easy in that an offer wasn’t on the table. You don’t know what you would have done if she’d made an offer.
“It’s about not repeating a mistake now I understand properly the reasons and the outcomes.”
There’s a period of early glimmer where I believe one can decide to shut it down. You can feel when you’re about to open Pandora’s Box.
“I don’t know – maybe just more insight into the male mind 😆 I think we were discussing what I did and didn’t know about mine and LO’s compatibility, was the broad context.”
But I don’t understand why you count sex as a possible incompatibility if you’ve never had sex. Now, if you had made out … that could possibly tell you something about how the rest of the physical stuff would go.
“Look how many limerents start here in denial of what they’re going to have to face.”
Tbh, I read a lot of posts about the pain of limerence but not many, for example, where the limerent self reflects about why they’ve had repeated LEs and what they are doing to try to prevent new ones. Sorry. I’m being honest.
“Are we talking men south of 40 years old here?”
I do know one man who was over 40 who had several at one point, yes. He actually married one of them. So much for that “men put women into categories” theory. “Not interested,” “a bit of fun,” “relationship material.”
[“In hindsight, I don’t think it’s an effective strategy for a woman if she has a soul.”]
“What isn’t? More traditional dating strategies, or trying to go around them?”
Trying to go around them.
“Your final sentence says it all to me. Say you did reach out and he circled back round (I know that’s not what you’d expect, but come with me here). That would be opening yourself up to resetting the clock back to last summer-ish time and having to go through all the phases again even to get back to DoH. And I wouldn’t wish that on you.”
I suppose I have this ridiculous notion that he could have developed some feelings if I hadn’t slammed the door so quickly. I’m probably lying to myself. But, really, again … does it matter? It was a dead-end. And even if he contacted me tomorrow and said he was newly single … that’s still a train wreck waiting to happen. Because I’d be all focused on him. But after getting out of a long-term relationship, who do you think he’d me focused on? And if I said, “Call me in 6 months when you’ve processed things a bit,” by then he’d probably be with someone else.
The Year of the Fire Horse 2026 | The Ancient Zodiac
https://youtu.be/wJpLeBTeiF0?si=okh2FytcCFuodp6y
Again
Tyree Daye
(love) I’ve been trying to make our (baby) without our bodies
I threw some bones on the page I wrote;
you are a ghost that’s never lived
little side mirror spell
(love) I made our (baby) a ghost to get our (baby) here
who said that?
what a man won’t do
to get what he wants?
forgive me? (love) I thought I knew something
about loving I was longing I thought I knew something
about ghosts I’m closer to Okri
than I am a father
spirit-child wounded wound my mouth that won’t close
what kind of ghost has never been alive?
unborn born and ghost again?
(baby) I’m sorry
I’m sorry to bring you forth like this
into suffering