I’ve previously written about the fact that limerence has both universal and personal aspects.
The operation of the reward system in the brain follows predictable rules.
When a reward is powerful enough—and not much compares to the natural high of limerence—it can become addictive.
If uncertainty means that the reward system doesn’t habituate, it becomes sensitized, and that one reward (the person you’re limerent for) dominates all others. You want them relentlessly.
At the same time, feedback from the executive brain (that normally moderates desire and regulates behaviour) is desensitized. You lose self-control. Or you don’t care about consequences.
So far, so universal.
In principle, anyone who encounters someone that can drive their reward system into this hyperactive state could become limerent through the same basic mechanism.
But, the personal aspect of limerence is in all the other aspects of the experience.
- What kind of person causes the glimmer for you?
- How do you react to euphoria?
- What emotion predominates—excitement, anxiety, guilt, longing, agonising-ecstasy?
- Of the many symptoms of limerence, which are the most intense for you?
These sorts of questions get me wondering about whether there is a level between the unviversal and the individual.
Are there types of limerents? Recognisable classes of limerents that have a bias towards a particular set of symptoms?
If nothing else, it’s strangely satisfying to sort people into categories—how else to explain the popularity of Myers-Brigg personality tests?
So, let’s have some fun coming up with possible limerent archetypes.
1. The dreamer
Always in their own head. Remembering good times. Constructing happy fantasies. Planning ahead for the next time they might be with LO and coming up with clever schemes to impress.
The dreamer limerent uses reverie for mood regulation. They seek time alone so they can immerse themselves in their imaginary world of blissful consummation.
Their fatal weakness is indecision and inaction. Hope keeps the dream alive; anything that risks that hope collapsing is a threat.
2. The rescuer
Drawn towards the damsel in distress or the tortured soul. Rescuer limerents light up at the chance to save someone through the power of their love.
Never happier than when they are helping.
Vulnerable to manipulative LOs who like having a devoted helper at their beck and call.
3. The benefactor
Closely related to the rescuer, but in a position to practically or professionally help the LO as a show of their high regard.
The benefactor is often a boss or mentor, and gets muddled about the meaning of their LO’s warm response to praise or support.
They get a kick out of lifting their LO up, but their motives aren’t really selfless.
4. The anxious
Hypersensitive to the negative symptoms of limerence, the anxious are doomed to suffer pain when the bond to LO is uncertain.
They ruminate more than they daydream—plagued by intrusive thoughts of loss. In seeking reassurance, they can ironically jeopardise the bond further.
While the emotional highs can be wonderful, the lows are brutal.
5. The thrill-seekers
Never so alive as when they are in the throes of early limerence. They love the highs, and seek them greedily.
They can be great fun to be around, riding their high, full of energy and enthusiasm.
But they can leave a trail of destruction in their wake as they move from LO to LO as the highs begin to fade.
6. The conflicted
Ground down by responsibility and obligation, feeling trapped in a bloodless routine. These limerents are tempted by the prospect that a wild infatuation will revivify their lives.
Often caught by surprise, they fall hard into limerence and suffer as their need for escape battles with guilt over neglecting their duties.
Internal conflict defines their limerence experience.
7. The soulmate seekers
The true romantics, looking for that cosmic sense of connection. The rush of euphoria comes from the dream of ecstatic union.
These limerents want to lose themselves in mutual bliss.
They idealise their LOs to an extraordinary degree.
So what do we think?
Useful? Silly? Provocative?
Even as I write these out, I know that I fell into more than one category at different points in my life. I was the dreamer with my first LO, the soulmate seeker with my wife, and the rescuer/benefactor with my last.
Did I miss any obvious types out?
Another possible type: The scribe … Writes copious notes about the LO. What the LO says and does and goes over and over the LE. Sometimes on this site. Sometimes on their own. I’ve been guilty of both.
In terms the thrill-seeker … I think it’s the LO who leaves a destructive trail. It’s the LO who has the power. Who delivers the hammer. Once the limerent finally accepts what’s really going on in the LE.
A limerent may decide to end things but the LO often decides when it’s over.
But the limerent is only deciding to end things because the LO gives them no choice. What they’re offering is … crap.
Not always.
Sometimes an attached limerent comes to their senses, pulls their head out of their ass, and tries to do the right thing and leave.
But, you can’t control your LO. They can go off script and make leaving harder for the limerent.
From what I remember … and correct me if I’m wrong … your LO#2 said no to marrying you. And then you decided not to accept what she was offering because it was much less than what you wanted.
The LO is almost always the one who sets the terms. All the limerent can do is say yes or no to the terms.
The one who is more invested has less power.
Marcia,
My response referred to LO #4 vice LO #2.
WRT LO#2, you are correct. I wanted more than she offered and the one who needs less is always in control. More often than not, that will be the LO but not always.
L.E.,
“WRT LO#2, you are correct. I wanted more than she offered and the one who needs less is always in control. More often than not, that will be the LO but not always.”
And then when/if you are ever the one more in control, you don’t even want it. It’s either someone you’re not that interested in or a situation you’re trying to figure out how to exit 🙂
Marcia,
Sometimes needing less and being in control isn’t situation specific.
It’s a way of life you learn and adopt to survive.
LE,
“Sometimes needing less and being in control isn’t situation specific. It’s a way of life you learn and adopt to survive.”
Very true. But that sounds like a trauma response. Deep suppression.
Marcia,
No argument
Marcia, LE,
Sorry to intrude here, I actually quite agree with LE’s approach/attitude, it’s Stoic, (combined with a Buddhism), if adopted early, which would help one avoid or fend off many future (would be) traumatic experiences.
Of course, many times, without any Stoic-flavored education or training in one’s formative years, it’s one traumatic experience later that set off one’s Stoic journey — building an emotional/mental shield for oneself.
Snow,
My twice divorced father trained me on many things, one of which was that when the crap really hit the fan, the only person you could truly rely on was yourself.
I took that lesson to heart until one day, I realized how lonely that was.
It took me decades until I believed that my father was wrong.
LE,
Why do you think your father was wrong?
In COO, we’re told that you could have your family and true friends supporting you, when you continue cultivating yourself – your virtues, strength, skills, knowledge, and wisdom.
Here, you see how friendship and family ties are treated… many seem to be on their own, feeling lonely or unsupported except going to a paid professional once a week to dump out one’s pains.
Marcia, L.E.
Have you both met good LO before? If they were (un)available, did they also provide crap stuff?
Marcia, I thought you were a LO yourself before, did you also give your limerents “crap” or just cold-turkey cut them off? You also had a mutual LO and lived with him for a short while, did he also give you only “crab”? Was he a good or bad LO?
Snow,
I had a real relationship with LO #2 for 5 years. The first two years we were together, I was happier than I’d been in my entire life. She was the first woman I said “I l love you” that said it back. The relationship failed for complex reasons.
LO #4 didn’t offer me crap. She didn’t offer me anything and I never directly asked for anything. I wasn’t looking for trouble. From experience, I knew our acquaintance would end at some point. I tried to push things as far as I could without crossing a hard line. I knew if things blew up on me, LO #4 was going under the bus. We’d never actually met, she was 2500 miles away and we had no social or professional nexus.
But, over time, we’d become more attached than either of us realized and disengaging was difficult.
L.E.
That’s what I vaguely remembered with your cases, not every LO was/is dark or only gave/gives crap.
By the math’s probability laws, once in a blue/Snow 🌙 , there could be a 👌 rounded L🅾️… Pray one day I’ll meet ☝️ again. 😋
Marcia,
“The scribe … Writes copious notes about the LO. What the LO says and does and goes over and over the LE. Sometimes on this site.”
I think scribing is just one form of rumination that all types of limerents and “OCD” brains that could not help do. Limerents ruminate about LO in their head or/and write down in LwL (if they have found this place), and OCD minds ruminate or/and write down whatever the brain is occupied in moments, hours, or days, not necessarily always with some fears or anxieties.
LE rumination can have glimmer/euphoria/infatuation with its ups and downs; OCD may not have LE features, but mental repetitions of thoughts/emotions regarding some specific issues, i.e computer/app problems or friendship/family matters.
You and I are not unfamiliar with either or both scenarios, right? 🙂
Snow (Miss Thing),
“Have you both met good LO before?”
None of mine has been good, no.
” If they were (un)available, did they also provide crap stuff?”
Available or unavailable, they were all poppy pants. 🙂
“Marcia, I thought you were a LO yourself before”
I don’t know for sure.
“did you also give your limerents “crap” or just cold-turkey cut them off?””
That’s hard for me to answer. I don’t know if they were limerent. As a general rule, I’m not one to spend energy keeping men around I’m half-interested in for attention or validation.
“You also had a mutual LO and lived with him for a short while, did he also give you only “crab”? ”
No, I don’t believe it was mutual. In the beginning, I was limerent for him. He was giving my crumbs. Things ended and months later he reappeared and was much more “all in” than I was. Was he limerent? Idk. If I were to guess, I think it was more that he couldn’t be alone. And I’m not sure if people who can’t be alone can be limerent. The desire to not be alone trumps the desire for a specific person, which is how I’d define limerence.
“Was he a good or bad LO?”
Bad
“and OCD minds ruminate or/and write down whatever the brain is occupied in moments, hours, or days, not necessarily always with some fears or anxieties.”
As a general rule, I write about the fears and anxieties or disappointments/disillusionments.
“You and I are not unfamiliar with either or both scenarios, right? 🙂”
I would embarrass myself if I told you how many pages of notes I have on my last big LO and LO lite. 🙂
Miss Marcia,
“Snow (Miss Thing),”
When did I become “Miss Thing”? What does “Thing” here mean? 🧐
“None of mine has been good, no.”
Now I remember that you told me once that all your LOs were “not good”, regardless available or unavailable and I asked you to search some answers for such a puzzlement… My previous crushes/LOs were mixed with good, bad, and neutrals.
”Available or unavailable, they were all poppy pants. 🙂”
LO#3 & #6 were Narc. only #7 was unavailable.
“I don’t know for sure.”
It’s true that without a disclosure from the other side, it’s very hard to tell.
“As a general rule, I’m not one to spend energy keeping men around I’m half-interested in for attention or validation.”
I gave a clear “No” to all my suitors; it’d be really cruel/selfish to “string” any of them around for my own attention or validation. I’d like to keep some of them as friends (they were friends prior to the crush/LE), but they were unable to maintain the old friendship with me. Now after LwL, I understand why.
“No, I don’t believe it was mutual. In the beginning, I was limerent for him. He was giving my crumbs. Things ended and months later he reappeared and was much more “all in” than I was. Was he limerent? Idk. If I were to guess, I think it was more that he couldn’t be alone. “
It sounds like that he came back to you as a rebounding board, like LO#5 did with me.
“And I’m not sure if people who can’t be alone can be limerent. The desire to not be alone trumps the desire for a specific person, which is how I’d define limerence.”
You’ve just defined another aspect for limerence❗️ As I recall, I still felt lonely (sometime unbearably but I endured it) in all my previous crushes/“LEs” until LE #7. I couldn’t understand why I felt “full” with my head wondering in the clouds a lot of times… That’s why I define the last LE as the Only true limerence.
“As a general rule, I write about the fears and anxieties or disappointments/disillusionments.”
After my Longing was gone, I had little fear left, NO FOMO at all. A few realistic anxieties exist normally, like everyone else. I’ve prepared for whatever could happen with my responsibilities.
I no longer write much of journal but think/feel for a while the first thing after I wake up (no need to rush to work). If feeling any buzzing inside due to dreams, I just meditate. After 10-30 minutes, the buzzing would be all gone. I so enjoy sinking in my comfy bed from 4-10am, let my head run around in the 🌌 …. 😜
“I would embarrass myself if I told you how many pages of notes I have on my last big LO and LO lite. 🙂”
Oh… poor you, they 😠 didn’t deserve your time and energy❗️ I didn’t do it that much – as a “kid”, who cared much about what’s going on inside her (surrogate) parent’ head⁉️
Nowadays, after my LE and Longing are both gone, I’ve become a true “parent” to myself and Mom…. I also consider/care much more about the inside of those whom I truly care.
Still, I rarely touch my journal nowadays. I’m trying to expand from my previous (prior to LE7), action-based Self. I think more about possible, concrete action choices and their preparations… while my mental OCD sometimes still “steals” my time and energy 😌
Miss Snow,
“When did I become “Miss Thing”? What does “Thing” here mean? 🧐”
Urban dictionary, Miss Thing: Someone who demands respect & has a sassy, spunky attitude.
“Now I remember that you told me once that all your LOs were “not good”, regardless available or unavailable and I asked you to search some answers for such a puzzlement”
It’s not a puzzlement at all. When you’re limerent, you can’t see the LO clearly. It’s hope and projection and brain chemistry and hormones.
“It’s true that without a disclosure from the other side, it’s very hard to tell.”
My guy friend used the words “in love,” but he’s moved on pretty quickly. So I don’t know how deeply those feelings ran. I couldn’t get over something like that in a matter of a few months. But that’s me.
“I gave a clear “No” to all my suitors; it’d be really cruel/selfish to “string” any of them around for my own attention or validation. ”
I did have a casual sexual thing off and on with someone I was never into and I never should have started that. It went on for a couple of months. That’s the only time I can think that I kept something going beyond a night or two if I wasn’t interested.
“It sounds like that he came back to you as a rebounding board, like LO#5 did with me.”
Possibly. I guess I was next in line if what he was in wasn’t working out. It was hardly some big love affair.
What happened with LO #5?
“After my Longing was gone, I had little fear left, NO FOMO at all. ”
I meant that I only write when things are going badly with an LO. If you read my notes, you’d think I never had a positive moment with either of them.
“I no longer write much of journal but think/feel for a while the first thing after I wake up (no need to rush to work). ”
I haven’t written anything about LO lite in a few months. And the stuff about my last big LO … that was several years ago.
“Oh… poor you, they 😠 didn’t deserve your time and energy❗️”
It’s cathartic. I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. But you’re right in that both of them were a waste of time. Most LOs are.
“Still, I rarely touch my journal nowadays. ”
I did reread the notes about my last big LO a couple of years ago ? I haven’t looked at them since. They repeat themselves over and over. I get it, I want to say to myself. 🙂
Miss Marcia,
“Urban dictionary, Miss Thing: Someone who demands respect & has a sassy, spunky attitude.”
I demand respect? 😳 What can one do with “respect”? Hug it, kiss it, touch it or fondly “ravish” it❓
You and I dislike to manage anyone else, not a leader type (we’re INF-P), why do we want respect? we might need some respect for respectable leaders. But if a leader demands respect, I would certainly LOSE my respect for him/her❗️
A true hero was/is never for the sake of getting respect, but to conduct heroic deeds for others’ benefits. If I feel even little indifferent to some people, I could NOT care less whether they respect me or not. It’s in their head, not my business! Respect is worth much less than love/care or empathy (NOT sympathy❗️🙄)
From a Stoic point, getting respect is trying to obtain others’ one type of attitude/opinion — something completely out of one’s control! SEEKING it will certainly brings one high anxiety if not misery, because what’s to be respected means different qualities to different people, aside from not doing harms (what mental harms are enters the debatable arena again!) to others and ONESELF (aha, you’d argue again with me about one’s free choice or addiction genetics here 🙂 )
But myself needs SELF-Respect to roll out of bed every morning, to keep my oath to myself, to keep my words to my be-cared, to take care of my chosen & assigned responsibilities, to try not to hurt others especially emotionally /mentally…
“It’s not a puzzlement at all. When you’re limerent, you can’t see the LO clearly. It’s hope and projection and brain chemistry and hormones.”
Well, one can’t glimmer at or fall in LE with ONLY good or only bad LOs, it usually involves a range of different types. I still consider my 3 big glimmers, LO#1, 4, 7, as good ones, despite their personal flaws — they did not (try to) LIE to, manipulate or harm me, I was giving choice and responsibility. Moreover, they all did (gave) something ONLY beneficial for me. My glimmer 👁️ was NOT too blind. 😀
“My guy friend used the words “in love,” but he’s moved on pretty quickly. So I don’t know how deeply those feelings ran. I couldn’t get over something like that in a matter of a few months. But that’s me.”
I’m the same way as you. I would not use the words, “in love” easily, which requires glimmer and euphoria. Infatuation is a different matter, it could be rational; it could be caused by other elements, e.g. genuine curiosity, true admiration of talents, or strong sense of an unknown connection (unreliable), etc.
“I did have a casual sexual thing off and on with someone I was never into and I never should have started that.”
The same here with (app man) LO#5 because I had this “sympathy glimmer”. It’s probably more of that I felt extremely lonely during that time. I don’t want to talk about HSP LO#5 here in public, because it’d involve “badmouthing” him who had/have some mental issues, e.g. serious, chronic depression….
“I meant that I only write when things are going badly with an LO. If you read my notes, you’d think I never had a positive moment with either of them.”
That sounds sad❗️ My notes probably sounded a bit “peachy”, because the phantom was my own imagination (originated from my childhood), so almost ideal in my journal and monologues (Sensor ET took all the credits while undeserving it).
“It’s cathartic. I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. But you’re right in that both of them were a waste of time. Most LOs are.”
One of my therapists told me that while “catharsis”/talk therapy helps release one’s stresses for the time being, it also “reinforces” stresses in one’s mind/memory. The meditation – mindful naming and watching them to come and go, helps dissipate them. Of course, active, a purposeful living helps more distract OCD mind.
“I did reread the notes about my last big LO a couple of years ago ? I haven’t looked at them since. They repeat themselves over and over. I get it, I want to say to myself. 🙂”
I have a carbon-board box of paper journals (perhaps covering ~30 years), but never bothered to read any of them. I don’t want to feel any kind of cringy reading how native or stupid I was. I KNOW and feel very glad that I’ve grown…. Yesterday is GONE and NONE❗️
Miss Snow,
“I demand respect? 😳 What can one do with “respect”? Hug it, kiss it, touch it or fondly “ravish” it❓”
Take it down 20 notches. It was a joke. I was teasing. 🙂
“Well, one can’t glimmer at or fall in LE with ONLY good or only bad LOs, it usually involves a range of different types. ”
You’re right. And nobody is all one thing. I need to remember that. People have a range of qualities. I guess I look at LOs as “good” or “bad” if things didn’t work out with them as I wanted them to. And I only ended up in a relationship with one. And once the limerence died down, the person I got to know, the real person, was incompatible with me. And he did have some personality traits that were kind of icky. I didn’t trust him or respect him. The whole thing was doomed.
“I’m the same way as you. I would not use the words, “in love” easily, which requires glimmer and euphoria. Infatuation is a different matter, it could be rational”
I don’t know if I’d call infatuation rational, but if I felt strongly enough to disclose my feelings to someone, it is not something I’d get over quickly.
“The same here with (app man) LO#5 because I had this “sympathy glimmer”. It’s probably more of that I felt extremely lonely during that time. ”
I was hooking up with this guy to make my LO jealous. It was a stupid thing to do.
“I don’t want to talk about HSP LO#5 here in public, because it’d involve “badmouthing” him who had/have some mental issues, e.g. serious, chronic depression….”
Ok.
“That sounds sad❗️”
It’s not unusual. When you’re happy, you’re too busy experiencing and enjoying the happy moments to write. You only sit down to write when things are going badly. (universal “you”)
“My notes probably sounded a bit “peachy”, because the phantom was my own imagination (originated from my childhood), so almost ideal in my journal and monologues (Sensor ET took all the credits while undeserving it).”
I guess I never idealized my LOs. Even during the height of the LEs. I was well aware both my last big LO and LO-lite had faults. Limerence didn’t give my a lobotomy. 🙂 And I never thought of either one as the hottest guy in the room. To me, they were super appealing, but I still had my sight. I had eyes. 🙂 What I struggled with was accepting that their feelings were more than likely so much less than mine. And that nothing was ever really going to happen with the first and something close to nothing with the second.
“One of my therapists told me that while “catharsis”/talk therapy helps release one’s stresses for the time being, it also “reinforces” stresses in one’s mind/memory.”
I have often wondered if talk therapy is effective. I guess it is for some people, depending on why they’re there. It is a TRAIN WRECK for a limerent. Because most therapists do not understand limerence. And what will the limerent patient do? Go in and ramble on … and on … about their LOs. Which is what every limerent loves to do (particularly if they have no one else to confide in about the limerence), and it is the WORST way to address limerence. Therapy should be used to discuss why the patient is limerent and how they can get out of the LE and prevent future LEs. Not go over every little thing the LO says and does. The therapist needs to be able to be firm and redirect the limerent’s ramblings. But how many do? Therapy probably prolongs limerence unless the therapist knows what they are doing.
“but never bothered to read any of them. I don’t want to feel any kind of cringy reading how native or stupid I was. I KNOW and feel very glad that I’ve grown…. Yesterday is GONE and NONE❗️”
When I sat down to read them, I hadn’t looked at them in years. I don’t plan to again. That time in my life feels like 15 lifetimes ago.
Miss Marcia,
When I came up with my own term “rational infatuation” a few days ago, I just felt it’s a kind of strong attraction” . In my native tongue, “infatuation” means very strong attraction w/o reasons).
Last year, I instinctually disagreed with LaR that infatuation is binary, because I could list “reasons” why I was attracted to someone for his specific talents or personality traits with or without that Glimmer.
I just asked AI literally 5 minutes ago, and here is AI’s answer, my “intuition” was correct —
*****
Your question (Can infatuation be rational?) touches the core of what it means to be human — where emotion meets reason.
The short answer is: Yes, but it’s complicated.
Infatuation is typically defined as an intense but short-lived passion or admiration for someone, often rooted in idealized perception rather than deep knowledge of the person. It’s associated with emotion, fantasy, and biochemical reactions in the brain (dopamine, norepinephrine).
However, “rational infatuation” might sound like an oxymoron unless we refine what we mean. Here are a few ways to think about it:
—
1. Rational basis for attraction
Infatuation often starts with something concrete and rational: you might be drawn to someone because of their intelligence, values, accomplishments, or character traits you admire. The initial spark could have a “rational” component — for example, noticing how they treat others, their competence, or shared goals.
So while the intensity and idealization may be emotional, the reasons for being attracted can be grounded in observable qualities.
—
2. Awareness and management of bias
A more “rational” approach to infatuation means being aware of the psychological biases at play (e.g., halo effect, projection) and consciously adjusting one’s expectations.
You could be infatuated but still:
· Question whether you’re overlooking red flags.
· Recognize that the feeling is partly based on limited information.
· Decide to get to know the person better before making big decisions.
This reflective stance introduces rationality into an otherwise non-rational experience.
—
3. Evolutionary psychology perspective
From an evolutionary standpoint, infatuation serves a rational purpose: it motivates pair-bonding, focuses attention on a potential mate, and can override short-term calculations in favor of forming a relationship. In that sense, the feeling itself is a “rational” adaptive mechanism, even if it doesn’t feel logical in the moment.
—
4. Philosophical angle
Some philosophers argue that emotions are not separate from reason — they involve judgments about the world. If you judge someone to be wonderful in certain ways, infatuation could be seen as an emotional response to that (possibly rational) evaluation.
But if the judgment is based on significant misinformation or fantasy, then it’s less rational.
—
In practice
People often speak of “rational infatuation” when they feel a powerful attraction toward someone who also, upon reflection, meets their conscious criteria for a good partner — suggesting the feeling aligns with their values and goals.
Yet pure infatuation tends to fade or transform into more stable attachment (or disillusionment) as real knowledge grows. Keeping a rational check on decisions made while infatuated is wise, even if the feeling itself isn’t chosen by reason.
—
Final thought:
Infatuation can have rational elements in its origins and can be managed rationally, but by its nature it includes strong non-rational components. The balance determines whether it’s a healthy start to something deeper or a temporary emotional high.
*****
I’ll answer other parts of your previous post while I get more time later.
Miss Snow,
“Infatuation is typically defined as an intense but short-lived passion or admiration for someone, often rooted in idealized perception rather than deep knowledge of the person. It’s associated with emotion, fantasy, and biochemical reactions in the brain (dopamine, norepinephrine).”
This is a good definition. It’s more than just an attraction. There is an emotional component to it because of all the “feelings” generated by the biochemical response and the projection/fantasy. Limerence is very similar; it’s just infatuation x10.
“Infatuation often starts with something concrete and rational: you might be drawn to someone because of their intelligence, values, accomplishments, or character traits you admire.”
I’m not saying it can’t happen, but it’s never happened to me.
“A more “rational” approach to infatuation means being aware of the psychological biases at play (e.g., halo effect, projection) and consciously adjusting one’s expectations.
You could be infatuated but still:
· Question whether you’re overlooking red flags.
· Recognize that the feeling is partly based on limited information.
· Decide to get to know the person better before making big decisions.”
Agree with this. I feel the same way about limerence. Despite the strong feelings, people can still take a step back and take their time to really get to know the person before jumping in.
I also think it’s possible to recognize you are feeling a glimmer and back away from it.
“People often speak of “rational infatuation” when they feel a powerful attraction toward someone who also, upon reflection, meets their conscious criteria for a good partner — suggesting the feeling aligns with their values and goals.”
Ok. But I’d argue that the more you get to know someone — and can thus reflect upon your criteria for whether or not they are a good partner — the more the infatuation wears off.
“Yet pure infatuation tends to fade or transform into more stable attachment (or disillusionment) as real knowledge grows. ”
Agreed. Basically, you’re best bet, if you want to experience the dopamine high of infatuation, is to NOT get to know the person. Keep them at a bit of a distance. Create some barriers for spending time together or keep your dates/rendezvous short. I’m being sarcastic, but you get the basic idea.
“Infatuation can have rational elements in its origins ”
For me, it’s never had rational origins. Maybe there are posters who have experienced infatuation that way.
They can chime in. 🙂
👯♀️ Marcia,
“This is a good definition. It’s more than just an attraction. There is an emotional component to it because of all the “feelings” generated by the biochemical response and the projection/fantasy. Limerence is very similar; it’s just infatuation x10.”
I was almost “infatuated” by my ex-mother-in-law’s elegant manner and her scent (she never got out of her bedroom without makeup or perfume); I was certainly not in LE with her. I was often strongly attracted by personal traits/aspects that I didn’t have and wish to have. 😙
“I’m not saying it can’t happen, but it’s never happened to me.”
It happened to me more than 70% of time, since COO emphasize rationality and look down upon/mock/dismiss strong emotions that fleet all the time❗️😏
With G5 and without euphoria, I became “infatuated/obsessed” (perhaps due to my OCD) with LO#5, because he had some attractive talents, while our personality traits aligned little. He was decent, brilliant nerd with some mental issues….
I neither had glimmer for him nor loved him as a whole person but still could not detach myself (very lonely then) from him sooner enough. I first wanted to “rescue” him but later was dragged down repeatedly by his serious depression — my swelling Ego 🔨. I was such an ignorant, foolish “rescuer” in LE#5. 😕
“Agree with this. I feel the same way about limerence. Despite the strong feelings, people can still take a step back and take their time to really get to know the person before jumping in.”
I’m totally with you here, especially aware limerents with the LwL nuggets.
“I also think it’s possible to recognize you are feeling a glimmer and back away from it.”
Yes, very possible❗️ I already squashed 4 glimmers since February 2024, and each time it took a shorter time to kill it. It’s so much easier to do it after knowing and recognizing how a glimmer set off 🧨 in one’s head.
“Ok. But I’d argue that the more you get to know someone — and can thus reflect upon your criteria for whether or not they are a good partner — the more the infatuation wears off.”
You’re still talking about emotional infatuation that wears off or dulls down. If there is a strong rational component in the infatuation, then it would NOT completely wear off. If it is reason-based, our logical mind can strengthen it and make it into safer, deeper attachment. Emotions also follow thoughts and actions❗️One needs to train one’s mind to balance ⚖️ emotional and rational, not overwhelming in either direction. 🚘
“Agreed. Basically, you’re best bet, if you want to experience the dopamine high of infatuation, is to NOT get to know the person. Keep them at a bit of a distance. “
I disagree with you here, if I don’t know him enough, how could I make him a trustworthy, sexy, comfortable bosom BP⁉️ Why so much emphasis on getting dopamine high❓ Just wanting to indulge in the dopamine high through any means is UNWISE.
People can change somewhat no matter in what age/stage, so one can always reinvent oneself to keep that “mysterious”/new sparkles — just don’t change into a 😈 over night.
“Create some barriers for spending time together or keep your dates/rendezvous short. I’m being sarcastic, but you get the basic idea.”
Hmm… it sounds like playing games. I disrespect and refuse treating life like playing a game, Chess, poker or other types. We’re dealing with human heart, mind, profound, fulfilling connections and mental health, which can get hurt or harmed if not mindful. Everyone’s life is an epic poem or gigantic canvas painting despite its imperfection — many experienced and potential stresses and pains.
“For me, it’s never had rational origins. Maybe there are posters who have experienced infatuation that way.
They can chime in. 🙂 “
In the hindsight, my infatuation in all my crushes/“LEs” had rational elements in both directions, aligning with my mental/emotional state of the time. I firmly pushed away those who had only emotional infatuation with me and didn’t
even bother to try to get to know my inside… 😠
My INFP 👯♀️ , I really hope you never let your infatuation blind your rationality/wits 👁️ in your dating or/and future romance 💝 and you could meet and pair-bond with an AVAILABLE man who could be emotionally and rationally infatuated with you, who could embrace and appreciate the whole of YOU 🫂
“My INFP 👯♀️ , I really hope you never let your infatuation blind your rationality/wits 👁️ in your dating or/and future romance 💝 and you could meet and pair-bond with an AVAILABLE man who could be emotionally and rationally infatuated with you, who
could embrace and appreciate the whole of YOU 🫂”
But you claim your infatuations have been rational and none of your relationships worked out.
Marcia,
“But you claim your infatuations have been rational and none of your relationships worked out.”
Because I had cptsd and that icky Longing, besides other vulnerabilities.
“In the hindsight, my infatuation in all my crushes/“LEs” had rational elements in both directions, aligning with my mental/emotional state of the time.”
“In both directions” meant both wrong and right rationalities. “My mental/emotional state of the time” includes cptsd and longing, immaturity, ignorance, stupidity…
Now, I intuitively think/believe that only after getting rid of cptsd and that longing, one could possibly succeed in a long-term relationship. I say this because I know what/how I’m feeling and thinking nowadays, fundamentally different than beforehand…
Time will tell whether my intuition is wrong or right….
Snow,
Infatuation is a delicious feeling. But … it doesn’t necessarily mean any more than what it means. A chemical high, a hormonal high, an emotional projection/hope you pair bond with the person.
All you can do is slow things down and try to get to know who the person really is. But it doing so, you’ll probably kill the infatuation Such is life. 🙂
Marcia,
“Infatuation is a delicious feeling. But … it doesn’t necessarily mean any more than what it means. A chemical high, a hormonal high, an emotional projection/hope you pair bond with the person.”
Yes, it might be just a feeling, especially when one is young. In middle age or even senior groups, infatuation might be more complicated, involving more rational elements. However there is a tipping point, actively pursuing infatuation high and passing the tip may get one into an addiction, like alcoholic or shop alcoholic.
“All you can do is slow things down and try to get to know who the person really is. “
Absolutely 🆎! Everyone has multiple sides. If the desired connecting doesn’t work out, there can still be something on the other person remaining subjectively or/and objectively attractive.
“But it doing so, you’ll probably kill the infatuation Such is life. 🙂”
I haven’t totally accepted your repeated, depressive point here; at least it doesn’t work 💯 based on Fisher’s MRI report. Oxytocin and other love “potions”/actions can bond a couple in long and healthy attachment; 5 out of 37 people are tested still IN LOVE after 25 years of marriage; you get the math here.
Fisher’s MRI result 13.5% matches another US survey (2 decades ago) that 15% of couples claimed still happy in their long-term relationship.
Miss Marcia,
“Take it down 20 notches. It was a joke. I was teasing. 🙂”
Your ladyship, give me some fair warning ⚠️ in advance; I almost wrote a complete essay arguing why “respect” is just a side product of one’s challenging endeavors or benevolent accomplishments, itself is NEVER a goal❗️
“I guess I look at LOs as “good” or “bad” if things didn’t work out with them as I wanted them to”.
A failure in an ordinary relationship or in LE doesn’t define LO or limerent as bad or good. It just means two sides can’t align their compatibilities.
“ And I only ended up in a relationship with one. And once the limerence died down, the person I got to know, the real person, was incompatible with me. “
So perhaps it’s not a luck to have G10/LE10 attraction, even if mutual, because limerent’s head might have slipped into an altered state of mind and can’t see clearly in any/all direction. I think it’s wise to dial down the LE infatuation or add more rational components into it.
“I don’t know if I’d call infatuation rational, but if I felt strongly enough to disclose my feelings to someone, it is not something I’d get over quickly.”
We just discussed that infatuation can be rational, one needs to constantly pause and reflect on it, to see if it has rational basis. Watch out for possible red flags.
“I was hooking up with this guy to make my LO jealous. It was a stupid thing to do.”
I never quite understood how jealousy worked with others, since I rarely had it the most of my life. I got quite confused when others got jealous of me or treated me badly/hostilely without any other reasons aside from jealousy… 😵💫 I finally knew how it felt like in 2022 with XLO’s Pet. It’s not a pretty or worthy cause for anything.
“It’s not unusual. When you’re happy, you’re too busy experiencing and enjoying the happy moments to write. You only sit down to write when things are going badly. (universal “you”)”
Very true! When I was giddy/happy, I often wanted to tease someone 🤗 Before my Longing was gone, I always thought of writing a memoir to tell the world about all the lives I lived through… But jolting down the past experiences often triggered my cPTSD and longing pains, and thus I suffered physical symptoms each time.
Now, the Longing is gone, I have ZERO interest to exam and write about the past, who CARES‼️ It’s OVER, let’s move on with more light ☀️ . I have limited time left on this planet, let’s focus on NOW and the near future, making it refreshing and maximumly joyful — NOT dopamine high❗️
“I guess I never idealized my LOs. Even during the height of the LEs. “
One can idealize only those about whom one doesn’t really know. Or one idealizes/fantasizes something or someone that did/do not exist in reality, either to have some temporary, false hopes or fend off despairs , like I had while in that “helpless” weekcare for 2 years.
“What I struggled with was accepting that their feelings were more than likely so much less than mine. And that nothing was ever really going to happen with the first and something close to nothing with the second.”
Your ladyship: first of all , both of them were NOT available; what made you think or hope that they could/would reciprocate your LE at your desired level, while they both already had a SO❓If I were you, and even if LO is available, I’d use Bewitched questions to ask (paraphrase here): “Who am I❓ What do I have to offer LO to make both of us happy❓ Why do I deserve LO’s level 8~10 reciprocation❓ (especially when s/he already has a SO?)” Is this infatuation emotional or rational based? for my pair-bond drive, my ego’s hunger, my validation’s craving, or my mental OCD❓I’d try to keep these questions in mind.
“I have often wondered if talk therapy is effective. I guess it is for some people, depending on why they’re there. “
Exactly. I tried several to deal with personal and cultural cptsd, verbal expression difficulties, poorly adopted social/dating skills for the West, insecurity… etc. They worked somewhat. At last, it was still by myself though xLE to get rid of that aged cptsd.
“It is a TRAIN WRECK for a limerent…. Therapy should be used to discuss why the patient is limerent and how they can get out of the LE and prevent future LEs. Not go over every little thing the LO says and does. The therapist needs to be able to be firm and redirect the limerent’s ramblings. But how many do? Therapy probably prolongs limerence unless the therapist knows what they are doing.”
I agree with you here totally. I didn’t know what LE is and never mentioned it in my therapies. I didn’t like to talk about xLO even here, you dragged him out of me more than I wanted… 😒 My last woman therapist (from 22-23) was quite inept and nosy; I didn’t want to tell her anything about LO/LE. Are you still seeing your therapist?
“When I sat down to read them, I hadn’t looked at them in years. I don’t plan to again. That time in my life feels like 15 lifetimes ago.”
Let our past “lives” stay in the past but carry lessons we learned from them; adversities are always our best teachers 👩🏫 🧑🏫 ❗️
Typo: “At last, it was still by myself through xLE to get rid of that aged cptsd.”
Getting rid of Longing and LE with the totally unexpected helping hand 🖐️ was such a surprise… ⚡️ 😊
Not silly at all..
When my LE hit, I was probably anxious type because uncertainty fueled the flames. When the lows hit, I went into dreamer type because I wanted to believe the fantasies from my ruminating would come true. This was perfect for mood regulation, but sadly kept me from wanting to make a move. Being that she already was out of my league, her actually rejecting me in real time would mean I’d have to kill the idea/fantasy of her. I didn’t want to do that then and still won’t to this day.
Since I still often idealise LO and believe she is God’s masterpiece, I guess that now makes me the soulmate seeker type.. #LostInLimbo
Dr. L,
Did you write this blog post in a hurry? I only ask because you assign numbers to the first three categories, but neglect to number the last four? Your irregular use of numbering is doing a number on my order-loving brain, no pun intended! 😆
Also, under the heading “The Thrill Seekers”, your second sentence begins with what I believe is a typo. Tehy. Who is Tehy? Is “Tehy” the name we are all now arbitrarily assigning LOs? If so, how is it pronounced? Tee-hee? Tee-hee might work for Marcia and MJ. However, I don’t think it’s going to work for me. I would like my LO to have a slightly more dignified fake moniker. Just sayin’. 😉
I don’t think your idea of limerent categories is silly at all. I agree with Marcia that “The Scribe” might be a good addition. However, I think “The Scribe” should be divided into two subcategories – “The Documentarian” and “The Mythologist”.
Documentarians are people like Mila and LaR, who are really focused on what has happened between limerent and LO, and interpreting those events as accurately as possible. Documentarians really want to find out the truth of how LO feels, because they believe truth will deliver closure i.e. an end to wanted and/or unwanted obsession. The stories of documentarians exude realism.
Mythologists are people more like myself who have given up on searching for the truth of how LO feels and are now only interested in telling a tale whose true objective is catharsis. But a story that has entered into the realm of myth can never deliver closure. The stories of mythologists prioritise imagination. Mythologists might be people increasingly operating outside of the bounds of pure limerence – the bliss-drenched final scene starts mattering less and less.
I probably entered limerence through “The Soulmate Seekers” route. But the whole experience, right from the beginning, was tainted by jealousy.
Sammy,
“Documentarians are people like Mila and LaR, who are really focused on what has happened between limerent and LO, and interpreting those events as accurately as possible. ”
I disagree. 🙂 Sorry. Had to say that. But the search for accuracy is a difficult one when it comes to an LO. Maybe only after the LE is over and one is NC and away from the LO. Only way to have perspective.
“Mythologists are people more like myself who have given up on searching for the truth of how LO feels and are now only interested in telling a tale whose true objective is catharsis.”
Or is their true objective to continue to believe the myth?
Dame Marcia,
[“Documentarians are people like Mila and LaR, who are really focused on what has happened between limerent and LO, and interpreting those events as accurately as possible. ”]
“I disagree. Sorry. Had to say that”
I agree with Sammy’s take on what my intentions were when documenting. I wanted to understand what was going on in my head, and preferably in LO’s head too (impossible, of course). Please explain why you disagree. And I won’t take your response personally – I’m genuinely interested.
OMG … this made me look back at the LO related journal notes I made for myself 😒 🤮. I mostly stopped those when I started talking on LwL, so they catch just the first 9 months – the most raw spell. And they’re cringe. Really cringe. The bits about LO’s state of mind veer between “she is blatantly in love with me” and “she blatantly hates me”. Sometimes those entries were only a day apart. Really cringe. Really illogical. Like it’s not me writing it. The limerent brain is a cruel beast.
“Maybe only after the LE is over and one is NC and away from the LO. Only way to have perspective.”
I don’t totally agree with that. I think *some* greater perspective can be got before NC. You (plural) can’t complete the job but you can get better at it.
Comparing how I think now to what I described with those journal entries … I never think she loves me or hates me now, we just kind of nurdle along. It’s still a limbo, but a different limbo. Time and the person’s near constant presence in your line of sight and hearing do change things! The ‘loves me / hates me’ thing was my hyper-reactive lim brain responding to the slightest changes to the cues she gave. In more rational thinking, the ‘cue changes’ are no more than undulations in her (or any human’s) daily moods. There was a spell lately where she barely spoke to me for a couple of weeks. *She was just very busy!*. But to my brain at the time of my journal entries, that would have meant armageddon.
I don’t think I’m alone on LwL in being able to reframe an LE before NC. Mila and Bewitched’s situations, for example, had similarities, and they have got further on than me. Their LO’s were coworkers, friends (in Mila’s case at least) – people they didn’t have much choice about having around. They (with having SOs) were part of the reason their LEs weren’t moving anywhere. But they managed their way out of the LEs while they still had contact.
Sorry, I got verbose again. It was in response to a thread Sammy started, so I assumed verbosity was allowed 😀
I don’t really want to respond. Because when I do, you don’t respond back. I just don’t want to take the time.
If that sounds harsh, it’s not meant to. I’m just stating a fact.
@Marcia.
Just a little emotional welfare check to make sure everything is okay… 🙂
Please rest assured that all your comments on LwL are greatly valued, especially by me, and always have been. For example, it’s really lovely you take the time to talk to Snow and even MJ, and answer their inquiries thoughtfully. Everyone sees your kindness. Nobody sees you as some inherently foolish or wicked person, although you might occasionally fantasise about being both. 🙂
I get that you really want an honest male perspective on certain matters. And I get that it’s hard to have a conversation with someone who’s verbose. Here’s the deal: some people (usually males) ARE verbose. That’s their real personalities you’re seeing. 🙂
When you’re on a bit of a light-hearted roll, there’s a part of me that wants to say: “Girl, just stop!” However, I don’t want to say “Girl, just stop!” because I want or need you to stop. (Effervescence doesn’t offend me, and you’ve got to find a way to navigate infatuation that works for you). I want to say “Girl, just stop!” because it’s a sassy line and I never found quite the right person to say it to. 😇
As a member of LwL, you are much appreciated. You bring fun, warmth, gentleness, whimsy, and curiosity to the table. 😜
@LaR
I appreciate the really logical approach you’d ideally like to take toward your own limerence. I understand all the calculations you’re trying to make. I also appreciate how much warmth, kindness, and patience you bring to the mix when interacting with other readers. You probably have social skills that are vastly superior to mine, and I admire that “sure touch” that you so often exhibit. 🙂
I’m an INFJ and I have my little INFJ quirks. Just like Marcia, you shouldn’t take my little INFJ quirks too much to heart. My aloof demeanour might seem judgemental and/or coldly rejecting to others, but it’s not meant to be taken as judgemental and/or coldly rejecting. For example, in the best of times, I really need a lot of solitude because solitude energises me. I also like to think over things for a long time before responding. assuming I respond at all. 😜
I would really appreciate it if people remembered that participating in LwL has been a learning curve for me too. I’m just a random human being, the same as everyone else. I don’t magically know all the answers, or even any of the answers. It’s only now, more than five years into the game, that I somewhat trust Dr. L. It’s only now, after more than twenty years in the game, that I somewhat trust myself. I’m also on a journey of growth and self-discovery… 😇
As I joked with Dr. L earlier today: “Never meet your idols”. I.e. if you get to know the people you most admire, you’ll quickly find they have the same flaws that all humans do. No one’s perfect. 😉
Sammy,
“Here’s the deal: some people (usually males) ARE verbose. That’s their real personalities you’re seeing. 🙂”
Are they? I thought men were supposed to be the silent types and women the chatty ones. 🙂 Not so on here!
When you’re on a bit of a light-hearted roll, there’s a part of me that wants to say: “Girl, just stop!”
Umm … It’s not “Girl, just stop!” It’s “GUURRRL … JUST STOP!” 🙂
P.S. I love “Humoresque”! That first scene where she meets him at the party … she’s flanked by two younger lovers and is picking out John Garfield as a third. Looking at him like she’s about to have him for dinner. 🙂
Marcia,
About this … what you’ve said isn’t completely true – often I have responded very quickly to you and we’ve had whole chains of messages between each other in quick timeframes. And I have enjoyed and valued having those conversations with you.
But yes, I have been remiss in not responding to a couple of your messages lately. I accept that and I’m genuinely sorry.
I only have time to dip in and out of LwL nowadays. And what Sammy says below about him is also true of me – I like to think through my responses carefully before I post them, and sometimes I think too long and either tie myself in knots or forget to post.
Those are reasons, but not excuses. I guess the learning curve for me here is not to start conversations I can’t finish. I’m sorry.
@Sammy
I much appreciate the kind comments you made about me, and also the insights into yourself and the INFJ quirks that you gave in that message. It is nice to have you back here at the coffeehouse talking amongst us when you do feel more sociable.
LaR,
“About this … what you’ve said isn’t completely true – often I have responded very quickly to you and we’ve had whole chains of messages between each other in quick timeframes. And I have enjoyed and valued having those conversations with you.”
Well, you’ll respond quickly for about 2 or 3 responses. And then you stop.
I didn’t mean to sound snotty or call you out. But outside of Snow, you’re the only one I have actual conversations with (back and forths) that includes some of my “stuff.” And I do value your opinion.
Sorry. I wasn’t clear. Our Conversations include both of our stories versus me commenting on the poster’s story and discussion of their story.
Marcia,
No, that’s all fair. I get your drift and know/accept exactly what I did wrong, especially re the most recent one I didn’t reply to. And I’m not just saying that for the easy life / to placate things – I do see it.
It is a bit of a different ballgame for me because I have an SO who doesn’t know (obviously) that I use this site – meaning that the times I can post are limited. I try to limit it as well these days so I don’t impact on our time together. It is never that I don’t want to make the effort to reply to you or any other poster – it is about carving out the time.
But this boils back to the fact I shouldn’t start what I can’t finish. That I do accept and will get better at.
LaR,
” I try to limit it as well these days so I don’t impact on our time together. It is never that I don’t want to make the effort to reply to you or any other poster – it is about carving out the time.”
Oh, come on now. She knows what she signed up for. You’ve been together for a while. She knows you have other female obligations. (I’m teasing … kind of . 🙂 )
“But this boils back to the fact I shouldn’t start what I can’t finish. That I do accept and will get better at.”
I appreciate that. Thank you.
Ok. Here’s the question du jour: Why are so many partnered, middle-aged male limerents in denial about their feelings? I don’t agree with your response to NTL. Limerence, as a general rule, is a pair-bonding drive. It is romantic and sexual. Can platonic limerence exist? I think so, but then the posts would be questioning why the male limerents were so attached to, for example, their guy friends. And the posts NEVER are. (That was almost a little comical when you read that, right? :)) Now, to be clear, I’m not saying the limerent, in this type of situation, is trying to get the LO into bed. They want to maintain their primary relationship while having a “friendship” — yes, I’m putting that in ironic quotes 🙂 — with their LOs. And go right up to what I would call “the line.” Definitely what my last big LO was doing. How much can he do and not actually, technically, be cheating.
On a similar note, I watch this one psychiatrist’s YouTube channel, and in one video he talked about how some men have shame about having sexual feelings. He did until he was in his early 30s. He was taught to respect women and didn’t know how to express sexual feelings. However, he said that when he was more direct about his sexual feelings with women, he started doing better in dating. That makes sense to me. He advises young men to make their sexual intentions known when dating. I think it’s good advice. (And to be clear for a second time, I’m not advising a man shows no other interest in a woman beyond sex. But sexual interest should be in the mix.)
Marcia,
“Oh, come on now. She knows what she signed up for. You’ve been together for a while. She knows you have other female obligations.”
She kind of does – I won’t even try to BS you there. But imagine the conversation to the second level: “Yeah I’m limerent for (LO). And yeah I also spend masses of hours talking to other women who I know through a website I’m on because of the fact I’m limerent for her …”.
I don’t mean to trivialise. This place has saved me and my relationship at times.
“Ok. Here’s the question du jour: Why are so many partnered, middle-aged male limerents in denial about their feelings?”
Each case is different. If I was in denial, I wouldn’t be here on LwL putting it out there. I will reply properly about NTL below, and then to NTL directly. But just because I believe him, it doesn’t mean I believe my LE is the same. I admit I have inappropriate feelings for my LO, including sexual ones. There you have it, in non-verbose words. All I have ever said about “I want a friendship with LO” remains true. But that doesn’t mean I know how to get there. Earlier today I told NtL that I don’t believe he can get there either.
“I don’t agree with your response to NTL. Limerence, as a general rule, is a pair-bonding drive. It is romantic and sexual. Can platonic limerence exist? I think so….”
I believe what NTL has told us.
“…but then the posts would be questioning why the male limerents were so attached to, for example, their guy friends. And the posts NEVER are. (That was almost a little comical when you read that, right? :))”
Yep, I laughed. I don’t really know how to push back at you on this point though. NTL needs to answer it for himself. I think the ‘surrogate daughter’ thing could be right. @Adam – if you’re reading – I feel like you might relate? You said you had the same sort of protector feeling towards your LO’s daughter? It’s important (as with every poster) that as a community we let NTL explore it in his own way in this space.
“Now, to be clear, I’m not saying the limerent, in this type of situation, is trying to get the LO into bed. They want to maintain their primary relationship while having a “friendship” — yes, I’m putting that in ironic quotes — with their LOs. And go right up to what I would call “the line.” ”
Yes, I think so. Guilty as charged your honour.
“Definitely what my last big LO was doing. How much can he do and not actually, technically, be cheating.”
Where would you define the line? When is it cheating? (BIG question)
“However, he said that when he was more direct about his sexual feelings with women, he started doing better in dating. That makes sense to me”.
He has a point. I’ve told you this before, but I only got confidence in that respect after 30. And my LO, and my other couple of big LOs before her, are exactly the sort of girls I wish my 20-something self had had more confidence with. But you already know that, don’t you?
I don’t think you can ever hope to know how “men in general” think – because every man is different. But I suspect my experiences generalise a fair bit.
LaR,
“She kind of does – I won’t even try to BS you there. But imagine the conversation to the second level: “Yeah I’m limerent for (LO). And yeah I also spend masses of hours talking to other women who I know through a website I’m on because of the fact I’m limerent for her …”.”
Ummm … what’s your point? 🙂
“Each case is different. If I was in denial, I wouldn’t be here on LwL putting it out there. I will reply properly about NTL below, and then to NTL directly. But just because I believe him, it doesn’t mean I believe my LE is the same. ”
There’s no greater unreliable narrator than a limerent.
That being said, I’m going to refrain from any further comment on his case specifically because a:) his case was just an example that was recent, which is why I mentioned it and b.) I was uncomfortable with the way he described the physicality between him and his foster daughter. And I’m a disappointed that the male posters on here who have said nothing about that. (I want to be clear I am not running anyone off the site. It’s not my site. )
“I admit I have inappropriate feelings for my LO, including sexual ones. ”
I don’t know that I’d call them inappropriate. Having sexual feelings isn’t in itself bad.
“All I have ever said about “I want a friendship with LO” remains true. But that doesn’t mean I know how to get there. Earlier today I told NtL that I don’t believe he can get there either.”
You can’t. Everyone wants to try to get around the protocol. Thinks they’ll be the exception. 🙂 “Oh, no, I’ll just dial down the friendship.” But you can’t. The only way to get over an LE is to go NC. It shuts the door. It tells your brain there’s no chance. There’s no hope. Without feeling that finality, the LE lingers. No one would tell an alcoholic, “Ok, cut down on the drinking, but you can have one a drink a week.”
” It’s important (as with every poster) that as a community we let NTL explore it in his own way in this space.”
Again, I’m not saying there’s any effort or intention to have sex. There’s no plotting or planning. It’s not some Machiavellian scheme. But limerence is … based in procreation.
“Where would you define the line? When is it cheating? (BIG question)”
For me, personally, any pursuit of the limerence. Texting the LO, hanging out, trying to have lunch, trying to find them at work, etc. That’s pursuing someone you have limerent feelings for. You (general “you”) know you have strong feelings and you go right toward them.
And as far as “the line” goes … sometimes my LO’d go right up to it, sometimes he’d straddle it, sometimes he’d jump way over it and then fling himself back into the safety zone.
“And my LO, and my other couple of big LOs before her, are exactly the sort of girls I wish my 20-something self had had more confidence with. But you already know that, don’t you?”
I did. 🙂
Marcia,
“Ummm … what’s your point?”
That level 1 would be bad enough without exposing SO to level 2.
“There’s no greater unreliable narrator than a limerent.”
Agreed
“I was uncomfortable with the way he described the physicality between him and his foster daughter. And I’m a disappointed that the male posters on here who have said nothing about that.”
Only he can answer that. You have told me before that I talk too much in generalities. Ask me anything specific about my LE and I will answer you as honestly as I can. But I can’t speak for any other poster.
“I don’t know that I’d call them inappropriate. Having sexual feelings isn’t in itself bad.”
On one hand (biological / psychological), no, it’s not bad – it’s just neurobiology. On the other hand (moral) it is bad. It’s a matter of which perspective you take.
“Without feeling that finality, the LE lingers. No one would tell an alcoholic, “Ok, cut down on the drinking, but you can have one a drink a week.” ”
Good analogy. Point accepted. I know what I’m doing and by saying that, I have to suck up the consequences.
“But limerence is … based in procreation.”
I accept that of my LE. Only NtL can answer it of his LE.
“For me, personally, any pursuit of the limerence. Texting the LO, hanging out, trying to have lunch, trying to find them at work, etc.” “That’s pursuing someone you have limerent feelings for.”
Yep. We all (limerents on this site) know what that looks like for us.
“sometimes he’d straddle it, sometimes he’d jump way over it and then fling himself back into the safety zone.”
Be more specific🙂 (I also half jest here 🙂). I take it you don’t mean ‘hovering’ or ‘orbiting’?
[“And my LO, and my other couple of big LOs before her, are exactly the sort of girls I wish my 20-something self had had more confidence with. But you already know that, don’t you?”]
“I did. ”
I’m gonna pay you a compliment now. Please just take it. You’ve been the only LwLer bold enough to work that out and say it in as many words. And that’s why I value talking to you. You ask the right questions and you call out the lim-brain BS.
LaR,
“That level 1 would be bad enough without exposing SO to level 2.”
I’m not following you. What’s level 2?
” But I can’t speak for any other poster.”
Yes, but another poster writes that his 20-year-old foster daughter was sitting in his lap and he was giving her feet rubs. I feel like I’ve fallen into Alice-in -Wonderland levels of UNreality that I’m the only one feeling uncomfortable by that.
“On one hand (biological / psychological), no, it’s not bad – it’s just neurobiology. On the other hand (moral) it is bad. It’s a matter of which perspective you take.”
It’s what you do with the feelings. It’s unrealistic that both parties in a couple will never have sexual feelings for someone else. Haven’t you ever wondered if your SO has crushed or crushed hard on someone else? (I don’t mean that as some kind of warning or threat. I’m just wondering.)
“I know what I’m doing and by saying that, I have to suck up the consequences.”
I’m not sure what you mean by consequences. Limerents just want to have the LO in their lives by any means they can. They don’t want to go NC. Saying they have to “maintain the friendship” is an excuse to keep the LO in their lives.
“Yep. We all (limerents on this site) know what that looks like for us.”
Now, this will be controversial … but my feelings is … if I’m with someone and he’s done all of what I mentioned in my previous post with an LO, taking the final step to meet at the Motel 6 … isn’t that big of a leap. I’m not going to feel significantly better if that didn’t happen … in light of all that did.
“Be more specific🙂 (I also half jest here 🙂). I take it you don’t mean ‘hovering’ or ‘orbiting’?”
No. Straddling the line/dipping a toe over it … the comment he made that I posted to Mila about how he would dress me. Going way over it … the little bit of physical stuff that happened (more than hugging) … flinging way back to the safety zone … avoiding putting himself in any kind place that could happen again for a while after it happened the first time.
“I’m gonna pay you a compliment now. Please just take it. You’ve been the only LwLer bold enough to work that out and say it in as many words. And that’s why I value talking to you. You ask the right questions and you call out the lim-brain BS.”
You like me because I remind you of those women you liked in your 20s (and deep down still do). 🙂 As much as an online friend you’ve never met can.
I like you because you have a certain amount of self-awareness and emotional intelligence as a man when it comes to sex and romance. No, it’s not all that common.
P.S. I know you have a life and I’m not expecting you to always immediately reply. Not that I don’t appreciate it. I just don’t want you to feel pressured.
Marcia Darling,
“Yes, but another poster writes that his 20-year-old foster daughter was sitting in his lap and he was giving her feet rubs. I feel like I’ve fallen into Alice-in -Wonderland levels of UNreality that I’m the only one feeling uncomfortable by that.”
You are NOT ONLY one here, Sis! 😡 You have no idea how much I’ve held myself back again and again in the past year, in case I’d blow my head off on such a limerent’s 🤬 posts repeatedly, and lose my Stoic credentials…
If my biological loving father did those acts to me, I’d punch his face and never see him again! 😡 Now, a “surrogate father” ⁉️🙄 — what a BS 🤥 ‼️ I had fended off much older limerents in my youth, I could not tell/understand what’s problem with this “naive” young woman… not my business 😏
I’ve been so 🤮 that I literately felt nauseous each time reading such a post, so I avoided opening them for a long while. But you and LaR’s discussions brought the gross descriptions to my eyes again… which is a bit disturbing to read even about anyone with his/her SO….
It even ruins my mood to respond your other post to me… I have to wait for a while, until I can talk about “nicer” stuff… Now, my Stoic points have been reduced to 80%… 😒
To all 📣 :
Having legitimate or unethical PHYSICAL intimacy with whomever is a private matter between you two; 🔊 Please keep it to your bedroom or your own LE mind‼️
Snow,
“You are NOT ONLY one here, Sis! 😡 You have no idea how much I’ve held myself back again and again in the past year, in case I’d blow my head off on such a limerent’s 🤬 posts repeatedly, and lose my Stoic credentials…”
I really watched what I said when I responded to LaR. I was leaning on all levels of Stoicism that I have (and you and I both know I have to work on having more). But the fact that no one said anything when responding to him, and given the fact there are men are here who have daughters… I can’t even get my head around it.
Marcia,
“I really watched what I said when I responded to LaR. I was leaning on all levels of Stoicism that I have (and you and I both know I have to work on having more). “
I’m not blaming on your paraphrasing at all. You bravely expressed your discomfort/dismay while some others keep silence or use the excuse of PC or the site’s aim for help 😏
It’s fine to express all sorts of limerence emotional /mental /physical pains, frustrations, guilts, shames… but there is NO need to describe LE’s graphical, detailed behaviors, which, If repeated, amounts to indulgence❗️
If I want to read Erotic acts, there is better literature out there available; but a “clumsy scribe” of unwise LE acts? 🙄
“But the fact that no one said anything when responding to him, and given the fact there are men are here who have daughters… I can’t even get my head around it.”
Maybe some male limerents like listening to such 🤮 stuff?
Why does limerence rub off some limerents’ basic dignity/self-esteem⁉️
Marcia,
“If I want to read Erotic acts, there is better literature out there available; but a “clumsy scribe” of unwise LE acts? 🙄 ”
I think you’re not understanding it the post. And I hope to God I’m not understanding it. This young woman was a foster daughter, raised by this poster from the ages of 10 to 20. Thus, she probably did not understand appropriate boundaries of affection between parent and child. This young woman was taken advantage of. It made every hair on the back of my neck stand up when I read the post.
Sorry, Snow. The above post was to you.
Marcia,
I will write a proper response later to everything else in our chain.
But for now – on the other case we were discussing, I’m going to step out of saying anything more. I don’t think it is right for me to, as I don’t have the context and I wasn’t there. This doesn’t mean I think you are wrong for expressing your views – just that I want to step back.
I’ll discuss anything ‘of mine’ you want, but this concerns another poster who needs to speak for himself, or not. It’s not my place to either attack or defend him.
I might have got it right, or be a million miles wrong, in what I’ve already said … but we’ll never know.
Marcia,
“I’m not following you. What’s level 2?”
Level 1 – I’m limerent for …
Level 2 – I’m limerent for … AND I spend loads of my spare time talking about that with other women online.
“Haven’t you ever wondered if your SO has crushed or crushed hard on someone else?”
I’m not blinkered to the prospect. With one of my exes I suspected it, knew who the man was, and was eventually proved right. But my SO has never done anything (that I know of) or over mentioned a name to give me suspicion about anyone.
“I’m not sure what you mean by consequences.”
That until the day I cut my LO out of my life, I will suffer the lows and the rumination. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
“Now, this will be controversial … but my feelings is … if I’m with someone and he’s done all of what I mentioned in my previous post with an LO, taking the final step to meet at the Motel 6 … isn’t that big of a leap.”
For my SO, that would be a stratospheric leap. But I am more your opinion. I’d say that an EA is as bad or worse than a one nighter. And yes, I know that saying that means accepting that fact about my LE.
“Straddling the line/dipping a toe over it … the comment he made that I posted to Mila about how he would dress me.”
I’d say that’s pretty much over the line
“Going way over it … the little bit of physical stuff that happened (more than hugging) … flinging way back to the safety zone … avoiding putting himself in any kind place that could happen again for a while after it happened the first time.”
Gotcha
“You like me because I remind you of those women you liked in your 20s (and deep down still do). As much as an online friend you’ve never met can.”
Ok, I won’t try to totally deny that … but the reasons I gave yesterday were true also!
“you have a certain amount of self-awareness and emotional intelligence as a man when it comes to sex and romance.”
Thanks 🙂 Just not where it comes to being able to have ‘friendships’ with the opposite sex 🤣
“I know you have a life and I’m not expecting you to always immediately reply. Not that I don’t appreciate it. I just don’t want you to feel pressured.”
Thanks again. I won’t always immediately reply (the timezones don’t help) but I meant it when I said I’d try to do better, ie I won’t let the conversations lapse for days on end or more.
LaR and Snow,
“But for now – on the other case we were discussing, I’m going to step out of saying anything more. I don’t think it is right for me to, as I don’t have the context and I wasn’t there. This doesn’t mean I think you are wrong for expressing your views – just that I want to step back.”
I’m sorry but I think that’s a dodgy response.
Snow: I don’t have enough information to go accusing someone of a crime and I am perfectly fine with not getting any more information, but there was enough written that some alarm bells went off. And the fact that no one else said anything — even to say, “Hey, that sounds a little too affectionate with what you described as a ‘foster daughter.’ Can you give some more context?'”– when two other posters responded to him … that also sets off some alarm bells.
Marcia, (also Bewitched, Snow if interested)
“I’m sorry but I think that’s a dodgy response.”
I get it. You think me and some of the other men on this site should have called it out or asked more questions.
I’ll just add this, as I have reflected on it more today after seeing what the three of you wrote. At the point I was messaging yesterday, I hadn’t properly read or joined up all the bits about the foster daughter. My comments were about his LO – who is albeit much younger, but still about 30 yo, so ‘of age’ and probably in control of her decisions. I hadn’t registered the other part – and that’s way murkier.
LaR,
“I get it. You think me and some of the other men on this site should have called it out or asked more questions.”
Yes
“At the point I was messaging yesterday, I hadn’t properly read or joined up all the bits about the foster daughter. My comments were about his LO – who is albeit much younger, but still about 30 yo, so ‘of age’ and probably in control of her decisions. I hadn’t registered the other part – and that’s way murkier.”
Yes, totally agree. And like you, it took me a bit of time and re-reading to put all of the posts together. I thought: Am I reading what I think I’m reading? I saw “foster daughter” and “10-20” and I had images of a child removed from her family of origin for whatever reason, and, if so, more than likely experiencing trauma because of that, and being raised/cared for by someone who was inappropriately affectionate.
I’m not talking about the LO. She’s old enough to make her own decisions.
I appreciate your post. I really am going to shut up about it now. 🙂
LaR,
“Level 2 – I’m limerent for … AND I spend loads of my spare time talking about that with other women online.”
You have an obligation to the women online. Don’t ever forget that. 🙂 (I’m teasing.)
” But my SO has never done anything (that I know of) or over mentioned a name to give me suspicion about anyone.”
Ok. But don’t you suspect she’s at least noticed other men/been attracted to other men?
Here’s another question. Maybe I’ve been on this site too long and I’m jaded. 🙂 But have you ever wondered is there’s some other guy lodged in her psyche? Maybe a “one who got away,” or something like that?
“That until the day I cut my LO out of my life, I will suffer the lows and the rumination. You pays your money and you takes your choice.”
I think limerents want to suffer. Suffering is still better than … cutting off the LO and having to deal with going NC. And I can attest to you that NC is no fun.
“I’d say that an EA is as bad or worse than a one nighter. ”
Sorry. I wasn’t clear. I meant that … if I’m with someone and he has actively chased the LE … texting, hanging out, sexting, flirting … he’s pursued the LO and has not shut things down/removed himself … if he ends up at the Motel 6 with the LO … I don’t see that as a big leap. He’s done everything else.
“I’d say that’s pretty much over the line”
How far would you say it is over the line?
As you may have guessed … there’s a part of me that likes when a man goes over the line. And I’m well aware that’s not a good thing. But part of me thinks: Ok. You have my attention. How far are you going to push this?
“Thanks 🙂 Just not where it comes to being able to have ‘friendships’ with the opposite sex 🤣”
Everyone has their blind spots. 🙂
” I won’t let the conversations lapse for days on end or more.”
That’s fine.
Marcia,
“But don’t you suspect she’s at least noticed other men/been attracted to other men?”
It’s only human nature that she would be. Monogamy is something that humans came up with (well, a few animals too) but it isn’t how attraction really works. All that counts is what she does about it if/when it does happen.
And you didn’t ask, but would I want her doing what I did in the first year of my LE when I ‘ran towards the light’? No. But I’d have more chance of understanding it having experienced what I have with the LE. Before that, I didn’t know it was possible to feel like you love two people at the same time.
“have you ever wondered is there’s some other guy lodged in her psyche? Maybe a “one who got away,” or something like that?”
Don’t most of us have those too? In a way at my/SO’s age, it would be weirder if we didn’t have ‘baggage’ than if we did?
“And I can attest to you that NC is no fun.”
I now think if LO left work and the area, I’d explain myself and go NC for a spell – not ghost but tell her why. I bet it is no fun, but nor is endless limerence limbo. I’m in a new spell now I have run out of energy with it, and where it’s just not much fun anymore having to work around her all the time (a bit like how Speedwagon describes his situ).
“I don’t see that as a big leap. He’s done everything else.”
Yeah I’ve got you and would agree.
“How far would you say it is over the line?”
It leaves no doubt he fancies you but doesn’t tell me if there is intent. If you were both available and interested, I’d say it’s a bold and good move. I can’t recall who from your past we’re discussing here and whether anything came of it.
“Ok. You have my attention. How far are you going to push this?”
It’s like what you talked about before with ‘ratchets’. Once something like that is said, both sides can ratchet away.
LaR,
“It’s only human nature that she would be. Monogamy is something that humans came up with (well, a few animals too) but it isn’t how attraction really works. ”
It’s not how attraction works, but I think it’s how long-term mating works. I don’t think polyamory works for most people. Maybe some, but in general it implodes relationships.
“Before that, I didn’t know it was possible to feel like you love two people at the same time.”
But is limerence love?
“Don’t most of us have those too? ”
God, I hope not.
“In a way at my/SO’s age, it would be weirder if we didn’t have ‘baggage’ than if we did?”
Right now, the only “one who got away” was LO-lite, and he really didn’t get away. He was never really an option. All the others are dead and buried. It’s not that they never cross my mind, but I have no interest in reconnecting.
“I bet it is no fun, but nor is endless limerence limbo. ”
In actuality, there is no limerence limbo. (Even though I’m the one who coined that term. 🙂 I really did.) Not for I’d say at least 90 percent of the cases. Or more. Nothing is ever going to happen with LO. Nothing substantive. “Limbo” is just a waiting area/excuse for the limerent not to have to go NC.
“I’m in a new spell now I have run out of energy with it, and where it’s just not much fun anymore having to work around her all the time (a bit like how Speedwagon describes his situ).”
Why?
“It leaves no doubt he fancies you but doesn’t tell me if there is intent.”
Oh, he had no real intent. Took me a million years to finally accept that.
” If you were both available and interested, I’d say it’s a bold and good move. ”
That was one of many things he said like that.
“I can’t recall who from your past we’re discussing here and whether anything came of it.”
That was my last big LO. A little something came of it but not much.
“It’s like what you talked about before with ‘ratchets’. Once something like that is said, both sides can ratchet away.”
But my theory is … if you’re going to throw something like that out there … you better be prepared to follow through. 🙂
Marcia,
“It’s not how attraction works, but I think it’s how long-term mating works.”
I’ve always thought it came about because of child rearing. In animals, that process is usually complete within about 6 months to a year.
“I don’t think polyamory works for most people. Maybe some, but in general it implodes relationships.”
I’m with you in general, but am always keen to hear counter-stories from people who do make it work.
“But is limerence love?”
An extreme form of love, maybe, in some cases? In my case no, it wasn’t, but it *felt* like it was.
[“Don’t most of us have those too?”]
“God, I hope not.”
I haven’t got any relationships that got away that I regret. I do have a couple of LOs where I regret that nothing ever happened, but I don’t think about them often now or ruminate about it. Some of my relationships had bad endings, but none of my big LEs did, because… wait for it … NOTHING EVER HAPPENED! (excepting the mutual disclosure one, but even after that we parted on good terms). That might influence why I see them as getting away.
“Right now, the only “one who got away” was LO-lite, and he really didn’t get away. He was never really an option. All the others are dead and buried. It’s not that they never cross my mind, but I have no interest in reconnecting.”
It sounds like once you close something down, you *really* close it down. I know you’re not there yet with LO-lite and think I partly get why, from what you’ve told us. But in the case of all the rest, it seems closed is closed.
Here is a question – are there any of them you wish you could meet again just for a night – no strings?
“(Even though I’m the one who coined that term. I really did.)”
Impressive. I have a couple of coinages here too, that others now routinely adopt.
[“I’m in a new spell now I have run out of energy with it, and where it’s just not much fun anymore having to work around her all the time”]
“Why?”
I confess I was in a bad mood about something unconnected when I wrote that, so it doesn’t represent how I always feel. First of all, it is nothing LO has done. It’s because of the endless ‘limbo’ (or however you may want to call it). For the last year I have accepted *nothing will ever happen here*. It would be easier in that position if I could be NC rather than see her most days. But we need to work together. As long as I have so much contact, even though the hope has gone, the feelings haven’t and don’t. So it is a daily exercise of ‘mind over matter’ to act ‘normal’, to not lean into it, to just have the co-worker relationship that we need to have, with all that history (some real, much in my head) behind it. I know I have brought most of this on myself – still, it’s difficult.
“But my theory is … if you’re going to throw something like that out there … you better be prepared to follow through.”
Oh definitely. Don’t say that and then back up.
LaR,
“I’ve always thought it came about because of child rearing. In animals, that process is usually complete within about 6 months to a year.”
I agree. If it lasts 6 months to a year (the early, honeymoon, “in love” phase), you’re lucky.
“I’m with you in general, but am always keen to hear counter-stories from people who do make it work.”
I couldn’t do it. I’m not “securely enough” attached. Due to my background. And I don’t trust your side enough that you wouldn’t walk off with the new person who had a novelty and allure I couldn’t compete with. I’m just being honest.
On the flip side of that, I’d be curious to know if limerence develops in polyamory. Why would anyone need to get obsessive and weird over someone they can have? (To be clear, I’m sure there are feelings that develop with the secondary relationships. But are they limerence? Maybe it’s what you wrote you experienced with your SO and it’s a healthy attachment.)
“An extreme form of love, maybe, in some cases?”
I don’t think so, no. To me (and this is my opinion), limerence and love are different. Limerence is based on two things: the powerful physiological drive to pair bond and a psychological gap in the limerent. Limerence is maladaptive. To get so obsessive about someone. Because limerence is usually based on very little information and a very limited pre-existing relationship with the LO. It’s based on a lot of hope and projection and the limerent’s “stuff” that has been triggered. Love is based on two things: a deep knowledge/understanding of each other and attachment, which is emotional interdependence and a sense of emotional responsibility for each other. (Can you tell I’ve been watching a lot of YouTube videos? 🙂 ) Most limerents don’t have “love” for their LOs. Now … sorry, I’m rambling … you were friends with your LO. So you may have some of those components. You may have some of the knowledge/understanding; I’d hesitate to say most people feel much of a sense of dependence on/responsibility for their friends. Not with adult friendship.
“but none of my big LEs did, because… wait for it … NOTHING EVER HAPPENED! (excepting the mutual disclosure one, but even after that we parted on good terms). That might influence why I see them as getting away.”
I’m just referring to my situations … I don’t know if I could classify someone as having “gotten away” if nothing ever happened. Because I wouldn’t have any verification they were even interested or that things would have moved forward. And if we were together and then broke up, it probably wasn’t supposed to happen. The only time I could see it being defined as “one who got away” is if you were together and circumstances tore you apart. As in: One of you was called off to war. Some big circumstance. Not “we started dating and he got another job out of state and we broke up.”
“It sounds like once you close something down, you *really* close it down.”
Yes, when I’m done, I’m done. But it can take me a while to get there.
“Here is a question – are there any of them you wish you could meet again just for a night – no strings?”
I can’t do that. I’d love to be able to have sex like a man. I cannot stress that enough. To enjoy it in the moment, enjoy it for what it is, say all these beautiful things that I really do mean in the moment, and then walk out the door and not want anything more. The only time I’ve ever been able to do that is if I feel no attraction/interest. And then, as you can imagine … it’s not that great.
“Impressive. ”
I was digging around on YouTube and someone had used it in their video title about limerence.
“I have a couple of coinages here too, that others now routinely adopt.”
What are they?
“For the last year I have accepted *nothing will ever happen here*. ”
Ok, two questions. What is it that you want? For me, as a single person, “nothing will ever happen” means I’ll never hook up with the LO. It’s that simple. Disclosure, flirtation … I don’t consider that as something happening. Or at least not much. But I don’t understand what the partnered limerents define as “nothing happening.”
Secondly, can you get another job? Now, maybe you can’t. Maybe you have a real good gig and there aren’t a lot of similar positions in your area. Or maybe you have great benefits and would have to start over again at another company. I get that. But for some people, I think it’s an excuse. They’re in a field with a lot of open positions/good salaries/benefits. In the states, I’d say engineer or nurse.
Marcia,
“I think you’re not understanding it the post. And I hope to God I’m not understanding it. “
I don’t think I’ve ever read the post you were talking about. That sounds horrible‼️ Please do NOT tell me more about it.
I was referring to the latest partnered LE case, repeated, discussed in last couple of days and even worded as “angelic”… 🙄
Snow,
“I don’t think I’ve ever read the post you were talking about. That sounds horrible‼️ Please do NOT tell me more about it.”
I wont’ say any more about it, but I am very creeped out right now.
“I was referring to the latest partnered LE case, repeated, discussed in last couple of days and even worded as “angelic”… 🙄”
That’s the one.
I skipped many of his posts 🤮 🤮
😱 he should be put in prison and get rotten there 🤬
Snow,
If I am wrong, I’ll be the first person to admit it and apologize.
But I just read over the posts again and believe I got the basic gist.
Marcia,
Based on your reading, does it amount to a possible criminal case? If so, the step-daughter can still sue him and put him in prison; he deserves it!
Hi,
I want to put on the record that I have never engaged with this poster from day 1 due to alarm and disapproval of the dynamic he enjoys with young women. It seems that there is no attempt at recovery or self awareness so what is the point in responding? Sometimes, people don’t want to recover, they just want their pathology confirmed (LE said that, once).
I don’t want to get kicked off the site and what can one poster achieve anyway? That’s why I just did not engage. I often just don’t engage as I hate conflict. Too bad if you don’t like that ☺️.
In fairness, Lovisa asked a direct question, which I appreciated. I am gonna shut up now.
My dear 🐝 🧙♀️ 🐔 — 🫂 🤗
But one rotten egg can spoil the whole pot of soup! It made me literally want to 🤮 repeatedly just to see the name! (at the very beginning a year ago, I spoke a couple words with the smelly 💩 before I recognized the wolf…. )
If he comes out graphically “bragging” again, you will see what I’m going to do during DrL’s sleeping hours… 🤓
One of my former students working for a national cyber defense firm against international cyber attacks could crack anyone’s (bank) account ( if they want to) let alone an IP’s physical address!
LE 👩🦰 🏃♂️ is right that nothing is absolutely safe nowadays!
Bewitched,
“That’s why I just did not engage. I often just don’t engage as I hate conflict. ”
I don’t care for conflict, either. And I feel uncomfortable telling someone else what to do. For the record, I have never in my life been a manager or in charge of other employees. I have no interest in controlling other people. But there was enough in the posts that I felt I had to say something because it weighed on me.
Snow,
“If he comes out graphically “bragging” again, you will see what I’m going to do during DrL’s sleeping hours… 🤓”
To be clear, I did not see it as bragging. I don’t really care if people brag. I saw it as possibly inappropriate affection between this poster and a young girl/teenager who may have been under age or so young as not to understand the inappropriateness.
I’m going to stop mentioning it.
Marcia,
Until yesterday or the day before, I didn’t know there was a foster-daughter situation involved his 💩 💩 posts. I was too 🤮 to read anything more (after he initially appeared a year ago) and any/all “empathizing 🙄” responses to his LE 👿 behaviors with his married co-worker in her 30s.
“To be clear, I did not see it as bragging. I don’t really care if people brag. “
When he reappeared again after a long while, I scanned quickly and saw that he’s still gleefully “bragging” about going out with that brainless LO, so I skipped them and the most of the responses again, until your chat with LaR with the new information.
“I saw it as possibly inappropriate affection between this poster and a young girl/teenager who may have been under age or so young as not to understand the inappropriateness.”
Remember, I thought you were talking about another poster perhaps before my time⁉️
“I don’t have enough information to go accusing someone of a crime and I am perfectly fine with not getting any more information, but there was enough written that some alarm bells went off. “
I wouldn’t think he’s stupid enough to leave enough of abusive, criminal evidence in this free site. I still cannot and don’t want to go back to check what’s been said. My psyche was thrown off even by the “distanced” news about some harms/abuses (physical or/and mental) done to children or youth, let alone by a “closer” possible 👿 poster HERE 😱, like that creepy stalker, “Jim” from England a couple of years ago, remember he called me a men-hater, because I was verbally on his heels…
“And the fact that no one else said anything — even to say, “Hey, that sounds a little too affectionate with what you described as a ‘foster daughter.’ Can you give some more context?’”– when two other posters responded to him … that also sets off some alarm bells.”
A poster responded it’s positive that this bimbo, co-worker LO reached him again for walking…😏 I still didn’t read carefully (just scanned with my ESL lens) all the responses, but I saw some lame/“dodge” excuses for PC the poster’s rights, as if we were his lawyers or shrinks… 🙄
If convinced that there might be a possible criminal case involved here, my former IT student can help locate the guy’s IP (unique in the whole universe) location. It’s commonly done in COO, possibly within one hour…. 🔨
Snow,
“When he reappeared again after a long while, I scanned quickly and saw that he’s still gleefully “bragging” about going out with that brainless LO, so I skipped them and the most of the responses again, until your chat with LaR with the new information.”
For the most part, I’ve avoided the posts as well (or I just skimmed them), which is why it took me a while to put it all together. Because I thought: Wait. What am I reading here?
“Remember, I thought you were talking about another poster perhaps before my time⁉️”
I probably wasn’t clear enough.
“My psyche was thrown off even by the “distanced” news about some harms/abuses (physical or/and mental) done to children or youth”
That part really bothered me (I mean that it weighed on me all last night), and that there seemed to be such a deafening silence from the other posters.
“like that creepy stalker, “Jim” from England a couple of years ago, remember he called me a men-hater, because I was verbally on his heels…”
I don’t remember him. What happened with him?
“A poster responded it’s positive that this bimbo, co-worker LO reached him again for walking…😏”
I saw that as well but stayed out of it.
“If convinced that there might be a possible criminal case involved here, my former IT student can help locate the guy’s IP (unique in the whole universe) location. It’s commonly done in COO, possibly within one hour…. 🔨”
If I’m understanding the posts correctly, this young woman is now grown and out of the house.
Marcia,
“For the most part, I’ve avoided the posts as well (or I just skimmed them), which is why it took me a while to put it all together. Because I thought: Wait. What am I reading here?”
Thank God for your instinct and conscience. I just didn’t want to feel physical nausea or get my mood/spirit ruined. Coming from the East of subtlety and “Puritanical” COO, I have a hard time going beyond verbal PG-13 stuff…
“That part really bothered me (I mean that it weighed on me all last night), and that there seemed to be such a deafening silence from the other posters.”
I only realized what you were talking until late last night, and stayed up until it passed 3am; I could understand silence (because not everyone read all posts) but got pissed by the “defense” for him 😠
“I don’t remember him. What happened with him?”
I think it’s about Oct. or Nov. of 2023, and he stayed perhaps 3~4 months off and on. Our room’s “Mother Theresa” 🧚 kept talking with him, trying to stop him physically stalking this 13-year old girl around her school bus in the afternoon. He also rambled about his “pure” intention to protect her from “evil” young dudes who would not love her as “purely” as he would — a very twisted mind. Then he vanished completely. I worried that he actually acted on his LE but didn’t dare to tell here.
“I saw that as well but stayed out of it.”
It’s not a single-to-single barrier — 🆓 LE case; but he has an aging, weak SO, and she a husband.
“If I’m understanding the posts correctly, this young woman is now grown and out of the house. “
Ok! I’ll rely on your words here and leave it as it is. I don’t want to, and wish never need to, ask anyone to break any professional/ethical codes of conduct, unless it’s a defenseless life involved in abuse or danger. ⚠️
This world is sooooo imperfect and sometimes so ugly. My Narc LO#6 once told me something so chilly: “If without the law, every man is a pedophile!” I did/do not know if that’s a truth… 😨
Snow,
“I only realized what you were talking until late last night, and stayed up until it passed 3am; I could understand silence (because not everyone read all posts) but got pissed by the “defense” for him 😠”
To be clear, the defense was about his LO. And while I rolled my eyes at it — OMG, have you learned NOTHING on here and about limerence? Do you even want to get better? — his LO is a grown woman.
I am referring to vague posts about a 10-year-old girl he referred to as his foster daughter, who he said he was affectionate with in ways that made me uncomfortable. And, yes, I still can’t believe no one else has mentioned it.
“trying to stop him physically stalking this 13-year old girl around her school bus in the afternoon. He also rambled about his “pure” intention to protect her from “evil” young dudes who would not love her as “purely” as he would — a very twisted mind.”
Yes, now I remember him. The current poster’s intentions were presented in equally discomfiting ways — as the love of a father for a daughter.
“This world is sooooo imperfect and sometimes so ugly. My Narc LO#6 once told me something so chilly: “If without the law, every man is a pedophile!” I did/do not know if that’s a truth… 😨”
Oh, my. What a gross thing to say. No, I don’t believe it’s true. But I do believe people know about things like that happening (or at least suspect or witness behavior that is alarming) and do nothing. If this site is a smaller reflection of the world.
Ok. Let’s move on from this topic. Not to be rude.
For the record, I saw these posts the other night as NTL had replied to my post. It surprised me too and I had planned to respond as I was having time at work to do so and then I didn’t. Then by the end of the night I was beyond tired and never got back on. There was a lot I wanted to reply on.
My plan was to respond to LaRs post because he mentioned believing the guy (NTL) about appreciating/loving this LO like a Daughter. What I didn’t like was the foster Daughter stuff and then going into detail about those walks with LO consisting of letting him sniff her hair/neck, playfully bumping into each other all the time and whatever other flirty behaviors are present.
The man should know, as well as anyone here with a Daughter, that is not how you love or behave around them. There should never be any touching or sniffing them. In any way that could cause arousal. Or incessant crying when they’re not around. This man is simply in love with that young Woman. Trying to have cake and eat it too.
His Wife must be so miserable that she puts up with it. Either that or she’s as blind as a bat. The way I see it, both their SOs should be somewhere present during those walks and see the nonsense for themselves. I guarantee there’s no way they’ll stand for it.
MJ,
I appreciate you saying something. Really.
This may sound a little corny … but us ladies do look to you gents for protection. And I couldn’t help but think: Where are the gents in all this?
Hello All,
I’m on a vacation with my wife, with no access to a computer and limited time on mobile phone. I intend to chime in when I return, addressing many of the thought-provoking posts here, and why the initial male response regarding a serious question was so tepid.
I initially responded to NTL when he first came here because of the similarities to myself, in how his emotions were playing with him over a LO. When he kept going on about the walks and under no circumstance giving them up, I felt like words were useless. At one point she gave up I guess and went NC, causing him deep distress and sadness. Which I can totally identify with. Now the door has been opened again and he’s back in the deep.
Some people have to lose everything as I did and start from the ground up again. Perhaps this is where his Wife needs to have an intervention or just leave. Then take him to court for everything he’s got. I don’t want to comment too much on the diddling with the foster daughter but thats a whole other can of worms that may need opened too. I don’t know for sure but the statute of limitations may have expired by now. Or if it was legit and she was underage. Even if she was of age, thats still way in the wrong and might even be considered rape-ish in some states. I have no clue why that was disclosed on this public forum either. That’s just insane.
I’m sure I’ve missed a few good threads too over the years. This really isn’t the easiest forum to keep track in but I know we do the best we can.. If “Smitten:” becomes a National bestseller perhaps we can convince the good Doctor to buy us a Christmas present by upgrading the forum.. 😆
As for the other men not chiming in here, I can’t explain that. Maybe this subject is too creepy or they just don’t come around often enough. I know I’m more available on the weekends but I have no problem being a protector. Especially to her Ladyship.. 😆
Speaking of protector types, maybe when Brother Adam finds this, he’ll have something to say. He loves to protect.. 😆
MJ,
“I know I’m more available on the weekends but I have no problem being a protector. Especially to her Ladyship.. 😆”
What a nice thing to say. 🙂
It was not my intention to press people to post about this if they didn’t want to. I’m sorry if it came across like that. It really bothered me to read those posts, but I’ve said enough about them and I’ve since calmed down. Write whatever you want about his LO. I didn’t agree with what you wrote, but that issue concerns two grown adults. The issue I had was with the foster daughter.
Allright … Bad Bunny at the Superbowl, baby! I have no idea what teams are playing, and I don’t care. Bring on the halftime show! 🙂
“Allright … Bad Bunny at the Superbowl, baby! I have no idea what teams are playing, and I don’t care. Bring on the halftime show! 🙂”
Marcia
Let me know how it is. I’m so not interested in any of it. Or the game..
Ok I take it back. I watched it. It wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be. Infact I enjoyed it because of the vast array of young Latina Women on display. Very nice. While I admit they were lovely to look at, not one of them even looked half as good as LO.. 🥰
You’re also going to have to tell me whats so appealing about Bad Bunny. Why Women go so crazy over him. He’s very average looking at best, to me. I don’t get it. Please tell me what you ladies are chatting about him, around the water cooler at work.. 😆
MJ,
“Please tell me what you ladies are chatting about him, around the water cooler at work.. 😆
Same thing you like in your women … he’s young, he’s hot, he’s fit. What’s not to like? 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGbsnHzvrbQ
I never even heard of him until the controversy began, lol.
I’ve heard of him. He’s been popular for nearly a decade.
“What’s not to like? 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGbsnHzvrbQ”
Marcia
So you’re as captivated by the Spanish language as I am. Nice isn’t it? It’s like a cherry on top.. 😆
I get it, but a lot of guys look like that. He’s kinda ordinary looking if you ask me. On a good day, I probably look better. Me and my Dad-Bod..
Just sayin.. 😆
MJ
“I get it, but a lot of guys look like that. He’s kinda ordinary looking if you ask me. ”
I don’t think he cares what you think. You’re not his target audience. 🙂
“On a good day, I probably look better. Me and my Dad-Bod..
Just sayin.. 😆”
You know who likes dad bods? The women who have had kids with those dads. Just saying. 🙂
Thanks, Sammy. Yeah, I did rather rush to get this one posted. I wrote it offline and then copied it into WordPress which helpfully screwed up a lot of formatting.
All fixed now.
Perhaps “clumsy scribe” could be another subdivision 😉
@Tom
**cough, cough** Never meet your idols. **cough, cough**
Nah, mate. Seriously, with the support of your wonderful wife, you’ve done an amazing job with your blog over the last ten years. 🙂
Fingers crossed “Smitten” does well in both UK and US markets. 👍
I would describe myself as a „conflicted“, at least for the beginning of my LE. I felt alive again, it was as if I were freeing myself from a grave. I could feel myself again, I felt desire and had butterflies in my stomach. When I realized I was never going to meet him, I changed into the anxcious type. My body sent signals, there was a weight on my chest, I couldn’t sleep properly, I couldn’t eat, lost 8 kg in a few month. I began to do what I could best since I was a child, I turned on my fantasy world and I wished to live there and not in reality.
Hey, Laloba. Yeah, it sounds that, like me, lots of the categories fit at different times and in different moods.
Snow,
“I haven’t totally accepted your repeated, depressive point here; at least it doesn’t work 💯 based on Fisher’s MRI report. Oxytocin and other love “potions”/actions can bond a couple in long and healthy attachment; 5 out of 37 people are tested still IN LOVE after 25 years of marriage; you get the math here.”
Happy? Sure. Swooning every time the other person walks through the door? No. That has a short shelf life, and that’s what I associate with infatuation or “in love” feelings.
Miss Marcia,
“Swooning every time the other person walks through the door? No. That has a short shelf life, and that’s what I associate with infatuation or “in love” feelings.”
Wow, sounds like “you” (universal) has lost his/her soul! 🙃 By nature it has a short shelf life, no one expects to have it last forever! Chasing that “in love” feelings or infatuation most of the time makes one a love addict, just like any other kind of addict, which makes one’s life meaningless and wasted❗️
I’ll avoid people, men and women, with such a goal – chasing instant gratification/high through any kind of addiction, no matter how attractive or charismatic they are! I’m NOT a chimp, my human Infatuation MUST have rational components‼️
Sorry, your ladyship, you’re preaching at a wrong choir. 🙂
You’re reading far too much into what I am saying.
I’m simply saying that people are not “in love” longer an initial phase.
Sorry for my over reaction, Marcia!
By your description, I guess it’s a nature that people can’t be “in love” too long, once they are safely attacked. Then, let’s accept this nature like we face that ultimate death.
As you say, “it’s life”. (Buddhism says that nothing is permanent / everything is impermanent)
Snow,
“By your description, I guess it’s a nature that people can’t be “in love” too long, once they are safely attacked”
You wrote safely “attacked” instead of “attached.” A Freudian slip, my dear? 🙂
That means amorously “attacked” or safely attached😆
On a shaky bus.
Snow,
“On a shaky bus.”
The bus is always shaky if it involves the other side. 🙂
Hmm… what does “the other side” mean here? 🧐
We two 👯♀️ are hung high and dry on the LwL stage❗️🙂↔️ the other side is sniggering… especially your dude 🙄
Snow,
“Hmm… what does “the other side” mean here? 🧐”
Dudes.
“We two 👯♀️ are hung high and dry on the LwL stage❗️🙂↔️ the other side is sniggering… especially your dude 🙄”
I do not have a dude. I’m a dudeless. Or, as the French say, “sans” dude. 🙂
Elmo will be popping up soon posting links to brother. He’s very predictable. His celebrity crush was out and about recently. If he doesn’t know that he’s not as big a fan as he thinks he is. #WEAK 🙂
Marcia,
“Hmm… what does “the other side” mean here? 🧐”
“Dudes.”
That’s what I thought, but couldn’t figure out why the bus is always shaky when it involves them? Are they always naughty on the bus? What “the bus” means here? 🤔 Don’t laugh at my cultural ignorance here.🫤
“I do not have a dude. I’m a dudeless. Or, as the French say, “sans” dude. 🙂”
Your dude 🎩 🦎 abandoned you❓😳 He needs a lesson from his Grandpa’s lost cane 🦯 …
“Elmo will be popping up soon posting links to brother. He’s very predictable. His celebrity crush was out and about recently. If he doesn’t know that he’s not as big a fan as he thinks he is. #WEAK”
You mean Elmo the red little monster or another earlier LwLers? Who is HE here? His celebrity — that Sabrina with her empty eyes appearing Grammy stage last night?… You’ve really lost me here… 😞
Its good to see you chatty Cathys are here this evening. Filling up the forum with smack about your Dudes. Snow is correct your Ladyship. Yes I am your resident forum Dude watching over you here to make sure you don’t step out of line. You like a Man who is confident, takes charge and has a plan. So for starters, why don’t you go and get me some coffee please? That sounds like a very good plan I could wrap my cold cold working hands around. (You know cuz I work and I’m a provider. 😆) I’ve had a rough day and don’t need any riff-raff from you or Madam Snow Queen 👑
Lend me some sugar. I am your neighbor.. 😂
Btw, whats up with this Elmo $#!+?? Elmo needs beat with a boat oar. I’ll be glad to whack him one.. Or two.. 😆
As for my good Brother Adam, I’ll help him out with what ever he needs. The man is currently out of work and needs a shoulder to lean on. If that means I’m sending links, so be it. You two worry about bringing middle aged Women back down to earth instead of raging at Ice agents all over Minnesota. That’s what happens when there aren’t good men in their lives. Making sure they’re staying in line at home, barefoot, doing laundry and making vermicelli for dinner. 😂
Despite not winning in her six nominated categories, my Sabrina was a standout performer at the Grammys. I’m sure you saw it. She pissed off Peta and was labeled childlike and creul for her handling of that dove, but I thought it was adorable. 🥰
I feel like I could be one of her dancers. You know, those incompetent men she sings about (completely, totally me), I could wear my work coveralls. Orbiting her just like I do with the girls at work.. 😆
Now if you fine ladies will excuse me, I’d like to take a little nap.. 🥱
MJ,
I would have gotten you the coffee … until you made reference to other women. Then I’m out. Then you can get the damned coffee yourself. 🙂
And no performer should lip sync. If you can’t do it live, don’t do it at all. (It sounds EXACTLY like the record; she’s not singing.)
The hot one was Bad Bunny. The women at work were talking about him. Women love him.
Sabrina lips it because its about having a stellar performance. The voice is a muscle and perhaps she was feeling a little under the weather or didn’t want to chance at sounding horrible. Which would go viral if she made the attempt. Its the Grammys. She wants to give it her best.
As for your bad bunny Dude, I don’t get it and don’t even care to try to get it. If thats whats hot to Ladies, I’ve got some more self improvement to work on.. His music is deplorable. How he makes the Super Bowl halftime show, I’ll never know either. Then again, I don’t want to see Ancient Bruce Springsteen, The Stones or Paul McCartney up there either.. I have no vested interest in either team and couldn’t care less about bad bunny if you paid me. My suggestion for a better show if you’re going to have one? Put Sabrina or Dua Lipa up there. Then we’ll talk.. 😆
🎩 🦎 MJ,
I’m with you on Bad Bunny 🙈 … Gosh, I won’t go to see him even if handsomely paid…
But your Sabrina’s empty eyes… can’t bear to watch her, either… 🙈
I don’t have TV or any network membership, just saw them on a BBC news clip.
MJ,
“She wants to give it her best.”
Her songs are catchy but she’s a painfully boring performer. You already know EXACTLY what she’s going to do before she does it. There’s ZERO surprise. She’ll lip sync to a prerecorded track that songs EXACTLY like the record (she won’t even ask the band to do anything different musically) and she’ll walk/prance around. It’s dull.
“As for your bad bunny Dude, I don’t get it and don’t even care to try to get it. If thats whats hot to Ladies, I’ve got some more self improvement to work on.. ”
I don’t care for his music but the man is hot. He managed to pull focus from Harry Styles. Not an easy task.
I could pull your focus from Harry Styles, Bad Bunny and Mikhail Baryshnikov. How’s that for being hot?? 🔥 😂
MJ,
I would need pics to prove that. And they’d have to be notarized by an attorney they were really you. And verified by an photo specialist that no filters were used. 🙂
I’ll see what I can do.
For now you can watch reruns of “How I met your Mother” and pretend Big Fudge is me.. 😆
MJ,
“I’ll see what I can do.
For now you can watch reruns of “How I met your Mother” and pretend Big Fudge is me.. 😆”
I’m not 100 % sure what you are referring to. I never watched that show, but … none of the male leads on that show are my type. 🙂
He’s one of the guy characters but since you don’t watch it, I’ll spare the explanation.
As for being your type, I knew I wasn’t but its fun rattling your chain anyway. You’d miss me if I didn’t.. 😂
MJ,
“As for being your type, I knew I wasn’t but its fun rattling your chain anyway. You’d miss me if I didn’t.. 😂
“Miss” is a strong word. 🙂
But as long as we’re on the same page. Snarky/over-thinking dudes sitting in a coffee house trying to outwit each other. Not my type. 🙂
Unless it is, say, Gary Numan or Bootblacks or VNV Nation or Ministry or Covenant, I’m not interested. 🙂
Serial,
Ministry as in “Jesus built my Hotrod” Ministry?
I can get behind that.. 😆
Serial: Maybe when they were all young.
MJ: Yep! 🙂
Marcia: Numan’s still cute. 🙂
Serial.
“Marcia: Numan’s still cute. 🙂”
I beg to differ. 🙂
On Gray Numan 🫣, I’m with you, Marcia.
Hello
I just needed to put this out there.
Left my job about 7 weeks ago, where my LO also works. So there went our daily alone-time walks 🙁
We had since chatted a few times via Instagram. But she is going through a rough patch personally, and I got it in my head that she didn’t need to have me “bothering” her anymore. I figured she had family and “real” friends to be there for her and she didnt need me to be annoying her. ( I have REALLY bad self esteem issues )
So I let her know I was deleting my Instagram account… about 3 weeks ago. And I went NC
She knows my cell number and email account.
So after not hearing from her AT ALL she reached out to me via text this afternoon. I thought I had almost never seen anything so Wonderful as her name popping up with a text message. It almost instantly cleared up the LE brain fog and Suffering I have been experiencing ( NO daily alone time walks with her for almost 7 weeks ) Truly like flipping a light switch.
We had a nice messaging chat for almost 30 minutes, asked how I was, she said she missed me and missed spending time with me. 🙂
She requested I reach out to her more and not to wait again for her to initiate the chat.
First time in almost 2 months I feel my mind is “normal”, and clear.
No great epiphany here, just a ray of Sunshine ( a play on her name )
I thought I would NEVER speak to or see her ever again. That feeling is like torture
Now of course… I feel Normal again, no suffering tonite
I don’t know if any of this ramble makes sense.
Makes good sense NTL. Glad she reached out and established friendship. Be grateful.
Hello NTL,
It is SO good to hear this great news from you, and that you are lifting out of the fog.
“I thought I would NEVER speak to or see her ever again. That feeling is like torture.”
I can relate to this feeling EXACTLY. In fact, been through it multiple times, sometimes caught in a trap with the same LO! In fact, I went through it, for the umpteenth time, just about a month ago! Yet another cycle of relief, followed by falling back into the obsessive cycle.
As MJ said, I hope you are able to benefit from the sense of relief that her reaching out created. I also hope that you are able to avoid becoming re-attached to your LO.
NTL, I think you really need to work on yourself, especially your self esteem issues. You need to understand that you are of tremendous value, including to your LO — that is why she reached out to you. But you also have great value independently of your LO. That self understanding may be the one that’s hardest to develop and internalize. It’s going to be a long, hard process.
NTL, I can see your value.
Best wishes to you.
I figure I should update this
Had a message from her this afternoon, a nice chat ( as nice as we could considering what she is dealing ), it was Very Nice to have her reach out to me
I got her to send me a selfie, she looks a bit sad, but I understand.
However… I often refer to her as My Daughter 🙂 I know she likes that… she often refers to Herself as My Daughter
For the FIRST she called ME her Daddy… as in she texted me “Have a good evening daddy” 🙂 🙂 🙂
This was ….. well, such a thing as I never even dreamed would happen!
Amazing feeling
Good luck with that, new_to_limerence. The interactions with your LO are feeding your addiction. It’s going to be a bumpy ride.
How is your SO doing?
Hello Lovisa
Yes, after the NC for 3 weeks, and not seeing her in person for 7 weeks…. I think I was suffering still, but less so… less obtrusive thoughts.
I admit… this has re-set that clock… HARD
Riding a high at the moment… but… that cannot last
My wife…. we are getting along much better… but she is having some new and serious health issues 🙁
Hello Lovisa
Of interest to me… I am I think a nice person… but I know that I have only a basic, casual, work- related caring about my (now previous ) co-workers. But for LO…. well… that is quite different… every thing about her is fascinating and important.
I am sure I mentally and emotionally have separated my caring for her ( as now a Daughter )…. brought on by a few hundred hours spent on walks with her…. from the Horror of the Limerence addiction.
I would like to keep the former and eraser the latter ( perhaps I am lying to myself? ) I had almost 80% cured myself, until a couple of days ago when LO re-connected… of crippling brain for and distress…to the point that my Wife no longer saw any of the effects and “brain shutdown”. I was levelling out.
And now I think I am almost back to square one?
Also… I know that when ( if? ) I have “completed” this LE… I shall never ever again allow this to happen.
Sorry if I am distractedly rambling
Agree with Lovisa on that one.
Those fun names aren’t going to help you out with SO. Be careful with this.
MJ
You are correct… and I have no intention of telling my wife.
She knows of my feelings to LO, but does not wish to hear about it
My thought is that she may really see you like a father. And would be very put off or feel manipulated if she fully understood your true feelings. Because hers may be close friendship with familial overtones.
Hello Marcia
I am certainly old enough to be her father.
Her actual father is about old enough to be her grandfather… and her relationship with her mother and father is… not as close as it should be. I could see she might see me as the father she never really had.
” And would be very put off or feel manipulated if she fully understood your true feelings “… I am not sure what you mean?
” Because hers may be close friendship with familial overtones. ” Sorry, I am not sure what you mean by this also.
NTL,
“” And would be very put off or feel manipulated if she fully understood your true feelings “… I am not sure what you mean?”
Your feelings for her are romantic and sexual. I can’t tell you definitively what she is feeling, but if she only sees this as a friendship and sees you like a father figure, she may feel manipulated if she knew you had different intentions. This exact situation happened with me and an older, male friend, who told me I was like a daughter. Until I found out otherwise. How would you feel if you thought it was a friendship, had let your guard down in that friendship, and found out the person was using that as a doorway for something else?
Marcia.
Now I see what you mean.
I can say this… I know I desire to be… important to her, and be emotional close with her.
Truly… not romantic or sexual… my Love / Caring language is to be touchy-feely… and LO and I bump/rub/touch all the time on walks… that is my way, and she is comfortable with it ( allows me to smell her hair, or smell her perfume from the nape of her neck… this was her idea )
I behaved this way with our “foster ” daughter 30 years ago…. just affection, nothing sexual.
Likely she was never given physical affection from her father, but she is comfy with me doing it
Again… I know I express myself poorly.
I know our co-workers would have said same as you… I gave LO a Lot of attention and frequent “treats”
If she could read my mind I do not think she would find anything inappropriate there
NTL,
That doesn’t sound like a friendship to me. What you’ve written is similar to what some of the other partnered, middle-aged male limerents have written in terms of their feelings for their LOs.
Taking the sexual component out of it seems to make it more palatable for the married, male LOs.
But what you want from the LO is still not a friendship.
You have to go NC. There’s no other way to get over this. I’m surprised your wife has demanded that you do that. I have to be honest with you … she’s been super humanly patient.
Marcia…
” Taking the sexual component out of it seems to make it more palatable for the married, male LOs. ”
Yes, that sounds like what we would tell ourselves ( I may be lying to myself, that I am not like that, not like ” all the other men” … maybe at some very deep core I am also like that … I prefer not to believe that of myself ). 🙁
I for the most part am a pretty realistic man… I think it would be FAR more likely I would grow wings and fly, than LO would think of me that way… so it simply would never occur to me she would entertain that idea…. even if ( shudder! ) I did.
and yes, Marcia… my wife has been VERY patient with me… I give thanks for her, she is awesome
When LF and I were still talking, we joked about how I gave her Dad vibes because I was often protective of her and bordered probably too much on hovering over her. Other Co-workers had noticed it too and asked her if I was her Father. She was never outwardly repulsed and told them I was old enough to be her Dad but that we were just good friends. True I enjoyed our friendship immensely and loved the fact others saw us that close. But she was seeing things thru a different lens.
I’m mentioning this because your limerence for your LO is throwing things out of whack with how you’re interpreting things. You know what you feel for her and God forbid she ever find out because the ladies here are correct. She will feel manipulated and it will confuse her. Lovisa mentioned this to me way before I ever made the mistake of disclosing to LF and then I did. Our friendship has never been right since.
MJ and NTL,
” Our friendship has never been right since.”
That is exactly what happened with my friendship. Dude spilled the beans, and it’s never been the same.
I’ll say it once, I’ll say it again: Do NOT go through the back door if you want to go through the front. (MJ likes when I say that. :))
Make your true intentions known ASAP.
MJ
May I ask.. what “lens” was LF seeing it thru?
I am completely protective of her… which I think she likes. Just had to have seen us on a walk…it would have been so obvious.
Perhaps I am lying to my own self… I know I cannot fully trust Lim Brain. But really, just a protective, overly attentive, dad. Not sexual.
It was not sexual with “foster ” daughter 30 years ago… even though you would have seen a 20 yr old young lady sitting on my lap at family function, or getting foot rubs watching TV. Outward appearance to others… yes. My wife knew that.
“May I ask.. what “lens” was LF seeing it thru?”
The lens of platonic friendship and perhaps seeing me as having a warm/fuzzy Dad-like quality that she never got from her real Father (He was an abusive Alcoholic).
I never considered myself limerent for LF because the feelings I had were nothing like I felt in true limerence over LO. I think in a way I was transferring some of those limerent-like feelings over to LF but mainly it felt like a normal crush. I didn’t want or need another LO, so I fought off everything that felt like it was headed toward another episode. I wanted to start hanging out with LF more. Take her to dinner or to the Casino or whatever. She never wanted to do anything outside of simply hanging out together at work. Eventually I disclosed. Not a full-on gushy, I’m madly in love with you disclosure either. I simply said I found the idea of her intriguing. Laced it with couple more “let’s hang out more often and see what happens”. In reply, she said she never needed to know that information. That we’re just friends, tha we’ll always only be just friends and the “idea” of whatever I was feeling over her was too much emotional overload for her to take on. “You’re putting a lot on me right now” were her exact words.
My silly little crush was unrequited. She was easily enjoying just simple friendship with me and nothing more. Thinking me at the same time was seeing her as just a Friend and nothing more. In a way I didn’t get it because I was always flirting/orbiting around her and making it obvious I was interested. But her horse-with-blinders-on-mentality was seeing only what was in front of her and nothing else around. I was just her older guy friend at work.
” I was just her older guy friend at work.”
MJ, this along with the rest of your post, is how I think it is for my LO. Of course, she is just having “normal” co-worker/seems to be a good guy thoughts regarding me. But I have been a main emotional support for her at work for almost 2 years. So she has grown used to that.
“Do NOT go through the back door if you want to go through the front. (MJ likes when I say that. :))”
Marcia,
Oh you know I do.. 😆
I’ve got about 500 replies I would like to make to this, but Dr. L would ban me for life, so I’ll shut up.. 🤐
MJ,
“I’ve got about 500 replies I would like to make to this, but Dr. L would ban me for life, so I’ll shut up.. 🤐”
Do they all involve the word Vaseline? 🙂 Sorry, couldn’t help myself, but I’ll shut up now. 🙂
NTL,
Before I start on anything else – I believe you if you say there is not a sexual part to your feelings and that your limerence is more like love towards a daughter.
That said – this is no normal friendship. Don’t try and kid yourself that you have cured the limerence. I can tell just from your words that you haven’t.
I think you were in the process of curing it, and you would have got there if you’d stayed NC. In your case, as many others, NC is the *only* way to end it.
But it seems the gravitational pull of your LO is too strong to resist for now. This new text-based communication will, as you put it, reset the clock. It has potential to make your limerence even worse than before – because limerence loves uncertainty. At least before, you had the near certainty of your daily walks.
I’m not trying to tell you what to do, as you will make your own decisions anyway. I just urge you to be honest with yourself. If you have to have her in your life as a friend / ‘daughter’ … then accept that with that comes limerence with all its resident cycles of joy and pain. And if you don’t want those, you have to use NC to end it. It is probably one or the other, nothing inbetween.
Hello LaR
I am, as far as I can tell, having searched my feelings, am being honest with myself. I have had 3 “daughter” type persons in my life… my real step daughter, whom I had some rocky issues with as she was a teen and older ( she is almost 40 now ) and we ” get along” now, but not super close. Our “foster daughter ” who lived with us from 10 to 20… she and I were close, but she left. And now, LO ( a term I do not really like but it seems accurate enough )
I believe I am attempting to create, with LO, a close father/daughter relationship, that has always seemed to elude me.
I have seen others have this in their lives, and I have been very envious of it.
After the 3 weeks of NC, my suffering had eased of a lot, and I was / am more cleared minded. My end goal was always to go full NC when she left for other employment. I did not think that she would stay in contact. I thought that she would soon forget about me. I see now that without me there, she seems lonely and sad. This of course I do not like.
As of this morning, I feel only remnants of LE. But of course, I now anticipate her messaging me and getting to interact and “comfort” her ( in my own poor way… the typical ” rescue ” complex, a carryover of my hyper protectiveness )
So as of now, yes… I understand that by breaking NC I will suffer more… but I consider that a price-to-be-paid for attempting to comfort her at this time ( again, she has very unpleasant things going on in her life now )
As always, I appreciate you all taking time to help me keep a straight line on this and trying to help me stay honest.
and… rambling done for now
NtL,
Thanks for your reply.
“My end goal was always to go full NC when she left for other employment.”
Kudos to you that you tried to go NC and know it is the only way to end it.
“but I consider that a price-to-be-paid for attempting to comfort her at this time ( again, she has very unpleasant things going on in her life now )”
As long as you understand that. If you are ‘eyes wide open’ about where this leads you, not kidding yourself, then Ok, it’s your choice to make.
I am very similar about my LE. I don’t have an NC option but I could do better than I do at LC. In the end, it’s a choice I make, and with that choice I have to take the pain it can bring. I accept that because I am not prepared to cut LO out totally. If you understand your own choice in that same way, good.
DrL always says these things don’t end until we (*really*) want them to end.
“Of course, she is just having “normal” co-worker/seems to be a good guy thoughts regarding me.”
Your situation with your LO is not like MJ’s LF. (MJ I am sorry – don’t be offended my friend). Your LO chose to walk with you at lunch every day. That indicates she was very invested in your friendship too. It *doesn’t* say she saw you as more than a friend. But it does say she saw you as a friend.
NtL, on a scale 1-10, how much would you say your SO understands your ‘surrogate father’ thing, and how your LO fits in with that?
LaR..
scale for my wife’s understanding… 2… she tolerates this, does not understand the addiction of Limerence. I have tried to explain it.
as for LO… she understands 9 out of 10… maybe 10 out of 10 I think. I have told her how I love her as a daughter multiple times. I believe she knows it to be True. ( one of our standing “understandings” is she knows I cannot tell her an un-truth ).
For example, I just today sent her this –
“Certain is it that there is no kind of affection so purely angelic as of a father to a daughter. In love to our wives there is desire; to our sons, ambition; but to our daughters, there is something which there are no words to express”
It is accurate to say that I have a powerful desire, at this point, nearing the end part of my life… to experience a connected love to a daughter. Perhaps only in a shadowy way, with someone who views me as a pleasant co-worker to walk with ( I tried once to get her to spend her walks with someone “better” than me… she became upset and would never speak of it again )
I hope I have been pleasant with her… she has been an Angel to me
All this said… I am working on “repairing” and lifting up my relationship with my step-daughter. I love her to pieces, but history can be hard to overcome.
If only my feelings of self worth were higher than 1/10
🙂
new_to_limerence, this is going to be harsh. I need to express some concerns.
Thank you for being so honest about your interactions with your foster daughter and your LO. I have concerns. I am a former foster mother. I adopted my four foster kids so now I’m just their mom. Anyway, I’ve worked with a lot of kids in foster care and I’m very curious about your physically affectionate relationship with your 10 to 20-year-old foster daughter. The thought of her sitting on your lap at age 20 bothers me. It didn’t bother your wife? I’m worried that there may have been an unhealthy dynamic between you two. Did your caseworker say anything about it? As a stranger on the internet with very little information about your situation, I realize that I might be wrong.
As for your LO, those behaviors you described are flirting. Father-daughter relationships don’t involve bumping against each other, smelling hair or smelling necks. I can’t for the life of me figure out why your LO didn’t set some boundaries. Something is not right.
I used to think that perhaps your LE really was a father-daughter thing, but now I don’t. I think you have romantic feelings for your LO and you’re lying to yourself that it’s innocent.
The new texting situation is very concerning. Please don’t deceive your wife. Be honest with her. She knows you better than we do. Listen to her advice and follow it.
Sorry to be so harsh, but I feel like you need some tough love. Marcia gave you great advice, please go back and reread what she wrote.
I’m new here, and desperately trying to get off this train. My LO is a coworker and friend. We get along incredibly well, and have since I started at the company 5.5 years ago. Over the past year things moved into a closer friendship, and over the past 6 months, I’ve found myself falling deeper into a hole …I’ve recognized there is a problem, and got close to detachment once, but because we work together, NC was never really possible, and I got pulled back in.
I found an opportunity to stack PTO back to back with his, so I will have 2 weeks without having to hear his voice or see his face. I’ve turned off all of his notifications, so in the off chance he texts me during this time, I won’t see it.
I realized that AI was amplifying everything, as I started using it to analyze every interaction. I’ve since cut off using it for anything, as I can’t take it saying “oh, he loves you! His actions prove he loves you!” any longer.
I just want my life back. I REALLY connect with Taylor Swift saying “I love you. It’s ruining my life.”
What does „closer friendship“ mean? Maybe he also developed feelings for you? Is there any chance to get even closer? What are the circumstances?
“Closer friendship” means we started talking every day. We’d ping on work chat all day, regularly have 2-3 hour phone conversations (we both work remote), text all evening and weekends. Our convos ranged from stupid, to deeper.
Then his living situation changed, and he lost privacy. We started to drift, but still talked somewhat regularly, and still hung out at least once a month.
Last month I told him that sometimes it feels stronger than friendship for me (the long lingering hugs, the 90min goodbyes, the conversation topics I don’t have with other friends) and he ghosted me. Like, I didn’t hear from him for a week. Then I asked for a reset and if we could try to hang out in Feb (I was still in denial at this point) and he’s like, that’s cool, but Feb is busy, I’m trying to move, so probably early March.
The issue is, I can’t stop thinking about him…it’s literally ruining my life. I’m not me anymore.
SS, sorry you are experiencing this. What is your situation? Are you married? Is LO married?
I am married (currently separated), and he is single.
Yeah, the ghosting doesn’t sound good. Since he’s single and you’re separated, you’d *think* that if he felt the same, he wouldn’t just bail on you like that. Though it’s confusing with, as you said, lingering hugs, 90-min goodbyes, etc. Unless he isn’t comfortable even with you being separated. In any case, getting him out of your head will take time but it can be done. 🙂
It’s certainly a tough situation. Speaking for myself, I have a few good female friends and I have never acted that involved with them like he is with you. Honestly, the only woman I have acted that way towards is LO. So I don’t know what to make of his behavior. Seems fairly intimate and affectionate to me.
Seeing that you are separated and he is single should you not just give a full on disclosure to him and see what happens? Or has that ship sailed?
If you are looking to move past the worst of this LE now then I highly recommend NC or if work makes that not possible, strict grey rock. My LO of nearly 4 years is also a work colleague and I have to physically coexist with her. 10 months into my LE I disclosed after a bit similar situation as yours and she claimed only feelings of Friendship. Of course we are both married so it was pure fantasy to begin with. For a couple years I stayed in limbo trying to be her friend until I realized the futility of that. About a year ago I started a fairly strict grey rock strategy with her and now it’s on complete cruise control. We only interact strictly over work stuff. We don’t even have superficial chit chat. I started it but she has since mirrored me in it so we both ignore each other personally. It’s actually a bit bizarre at times.
The grey rock strategy has helped even out my emotions greatly. I no longer have highs or lows and every day is sort of the same. I still consider her an LO and the rumination can still be there a lot of the time but it’s a lot less noisy than it was. I do hope for the day we part ways and I can be full NC but until then grey rock is the next best thing and I get along fairly OK now. And because I have built up a years momentum I don’t really have any moments of wanting to engage her any longer. I’ve become comfortable in the distance we have.
I hope you find a strategy soon that works for you. Like I said, it took about 2 years to find mine.
Yeah, the way he treats me is what is so confusing. I don’t have full body contact hugs with any other friends, especially male friends. My other friends don’t stand in parking lots, finding one more topic to talk about before we separate, or roll down their window once we’re in our cars to make one more joke, then pull up next to me at a red light 45 seconds later and roll down their window again. They don’t protect me at work, or get jealous when I talk about any other male.
Honestly, it’s starting to make me angry. I feel lead on…maybe that’s what I need. Use the anger. Grey rock is going to be hard. I’m pretty affable. But I guess it’s worth a shot.
Yeah, those behaviours are all massive limerence reinforcers, SS. You’re justified in feeling angry, and also correct that it will help with recovery if you can direct it into recognising that this connection is toxic.
Your LO is displaying all the behaviours of someone who’s REALLY into you, but then when he’s inconvenienced by a change in his circumstances, or you being more direct, he ghosts.
Classic hope and uncertainty combo. Even if it’s not deliberately manipulative on his part, it’s defintiely going to do a number on your psychology.
“Honestly, it’s starting to make me angry. I feel lead on…maybe that’s what I need. Use the anger. Grey rock is going to be hard. I’m pretty affable. But I guess it’s worth a shot.”
I use my anger to fuel my grey rock strategy. Works well as long as I know not to act cold to LO, just neutral. It started off really hard and I had a lot of backslides but now it feels like normal and I have lost interest in trying to engage LO anymore. But, it only really works if you have truly lost hope, otherwise hope will make you pursue. Took me 2 years after disclosure to truly lose hope.
Would you have a romantic relationship if you could with LO? Maybe you need clarity about what is going on with him first and force an absolute rejection out of him. Then move on from there.
Yeah, I had an LO behave like that and then back off. To this day I don’t know what was going on.
Hi SS, I’m sorry you’re suffering. It sounds like your LO’s behavior was the perfect combination of limerence-inducing torture. Your current misery makes sense after what you’ve experienced.
I noticed that you are separated right now. I’m curious if the separation happened during your LE. I wonder if your LO feels partly responsible and perhaps he jumped ship in hopes that your marriage might survive.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery!
SS,
Speedwagon wrote: “Would you have a romantic relationship if you could with LO? Maybe you need clarity about what is going on with him first and force an absolute rejection out of him. Then move on from there.”
You could do this or you could do the opposite: nothing. Sit back and see what he does. (This would be if you’re the one who’s mostly initiating contact and suggesting get-togethers and driving the connection.) Sometimes pulling back and seeing if the other person notices and makes a move to close the gap tells you a lot.
I really appreciate all of the support. The last few days have been hard because we’ve been communicating, but I sent him a text last night saying I was taking a step back to focus on myself. Not sure if he responded, and don’t care to look (the two weeks of PTO back to back starts tomorrow).
To answer some questions, my separation happened during this LE, though my LO had no influence on my decision. It’s been a toxic marriage the last few years, and I think that’s partially pushed me towards LO in the first place. He was very supportive during the toxicity.
Would I have a romantic relationship with him? Unsure. Some days I’d say, absolutely, and others I’d say no thank you…when we’re physically together, it’s electric. When we’re not, it’s hot and cold.
As for right now, I’m just focusing on myself, and one day at a time.
Some other zany ideas for limerent archetypes:
(1) The Vengeful Fox/The Jealous Vixen. (Stewing in resentment makes me feel alive! Why does Errol Flynn/Bette Davis get to play all the interesting roles?)
(2) The Professional Third Wheel. (I’m waiting for someone to break up with someone so I can make a move. Ever heard the saying “persistence pays off”?)
(3) The Incompetent Charmer/Inexpert Flirt. (I’m single and would like to date my single crush, but I’m too shy/too self-conscious to interact with him/her in person).
(4) The Cry-Bully. (I learned early on in life that assuming the mantle of victimhood is a very effective tool of manipulation. Now where’s my sympathy?)
(5) The Tortured Villain/Self-Loathing Villainess (I feel terrible about being a bad person, but I can’t stop myself, because… um … reasons?)
(6) The Ambivalent Hero/Ambivalent Heroine. (My flawless character and impeccable reputation have become burdensome to me over time. At dinner parties, I bore even myself. I may even be verbose. I don’t want to woo my bad boy/bad girl LO. I just want to swap places with him/her for three weeks).
(7) The Terminally Online. (I have limerence because I watch a lot of Tiktok. Last week, I had BPD. This week I have limerence. Next week, I’ll have … yep … still limerence. Whaddaya mean limerence isn’t some cute social media trend?)
(8) The Contrarian. (I don’t feel like a real man/real woman unless I have a member of the opposite sex to argue with. The opposite sex is … currently avoiding me. Can’t imagine why).
(9) The Gleefully Perverse. (You say “cream puff”; I say “Oh my gosh! How did you know? “You say “chocolate raspberry tart”; I say “I beg your pardon? What did you just call me?”)
(10) The Unreliable Narrator of One’s Own Life Story/Overly Imaginative Scribe. (I agree with Oscar Wilde – one should always have something scandalous at hand to read on the train. Did you read page 713 of my diary? How? I wrote it in code!)
Great! Thanks, makes me laugh in the morning. Now I have energy to get out of my bed..
😅
@Laloba.
Thank you! Happy to be of service! 😜
I was wondering if anyone would mind if I claimed the “Jealous Vixen” archetype for myself? I mean, I’m a dude. But I really feel “Jealous Vixen” is a good match for the hellish beauty of my internal emotional landscape! 😁
I’m sure I would look both tragic and glamorous walking into the sea, tears streaming down my face, while wearing a priceless designer gown. (Joan Crawford in the 1946 film “Humoresque”. Plot: an incredibly beautiful older woman finds she can’t compete with a younger man’s passion for violin. He chooses a stringed instrument over romance! She’s not jealous of his love for another (hopefully age-appropriate) woman. She’s jealous of his love for art). 😲
“Jealous Vixen” is the first thing that popped into my head when Dr. L started talking about potential limerent archetypes. But, you know, I didn’t want to be the first person to write it down… 🤣🤣
Most of my friends are members of the “Gleefully Perverse” society. They are a disturbingly cheerful bunch. Suspiciously well-adjusted. etc. etc. They probably think a “date” is something one encountera in a scone. 😇
@Sammy
It sounds like the Jealous Vixen life chose you! Haha, own that! Joan Crawford gown and all (just make sure not to store those gowns on wire hangers!!!)
We’ll call them “The Sammian Archetypes!”
Who needs Jung?
I like them!
Dr. L,
I think it’s a really good idea, but some of these category descriptions are about ‘why’ (e.g the Rescuer) and others are merely descriptive of ‘what’ (e.g the Benefactor, whose motives are far less clear – why do they “get a kick” out of it?).
I feel like it would be more helpful and less horoscopey if you dig a bit deeper into what underlying psychological needs the behaviours serve.
Hi Galatea. Thanks, yes, I agree that makes sense. I’m starting to think that it would be better to focus on the “dimensions” of limerence rather than use archetypes.
So, how strongly a limerent feels the different key symptoms–obsessive thoughts, euphoria, anxiety, physical sensations, spiritual connection etc.
That does sound like an interesting way to structure it – the dimensions might provide some clues as to how the neurochemistry of limerence may be interacting with a limerent’s particular personality and circumstances.
It feels as if categories are helpful if they’re mutually exclusive. I see aspects of me in each—I must be a human.