Over the last few weeks, I’ve been doing a fair amount of promotional work for my new book Smitten.
I’ve done a few podcasts now, and inevitably – understandably – one of the earliest questions from the host is:
So what exactly is limerence?
I’ve been writing about limerence for over 8 years, and so you’d think that I’d have come up with a simple and pithy definition by now.
Unfortunately, one of the ironies about really immersing yourself in a topic is that, after a while, you become transfixed by all the complexities and uncertainties and nuance, and lose sight of the fundamentals.
The classic “can’t see the wood for the trees” syndrome.
So, when I’ve been asked to quickly summarise limerence, I haven’t always done a great job, regrettably.
As a consequence, I’ve been thinking again about how best to describe limerence – especially to people who have never experienced it – so that I can to do a better job the next time it comes up. As it’s such a central topic to the site and the whole “Living with Limerence” project, I thought it would also be worth setting this all out in a post.
Defining the imprecise
There’s a reason that limerence is a bit of a slippery subject to define – it’s a complex and contested idea.
At the simplest level, limerence is a word invented by Prof Dorothy Tennov to describe some people’s experience of falling in love, which can be described by a couple of dozen symptoms that define the condition. But it took Tennov a whole book to explain what she meant by limerence, how it could be distinguished from other forms of love, who experiences it, what the common elements are, and what might cause a person to fall into the limerent state.
Another issue is that, while Tennov obviously deserves all due respect and credit as the originator of the concept, ideas evolve. Fresh perspectives develop. Other people think about the concept and form opinions.
Limerence has been dismissed by some people as a trivial “semantic carving up” of love. Others have reframed it as an attachment disorder, a form of obsessive compulsive disorder, a behavioural addiction, a manic form of love, or a delusion. In particular, one point of conflict is whether limerence is an innate process that some people naturally experience, or if it is direct evidence of some sort of mental imbalance or disturbance that requires treatment.
Tennov saw limerence as a natural process that could go badly wrong and cause psychological distress; therapists tend to focus mainly on the distress and make sense of limerence as a distinctly unhealthy state.
Another complication is that limerence changes with time and circumstances.
Early on it feels fantastic – a euphoric natural high – but if you cannot form a healthy relationship with your limerent object, and uncertainty persists, limerence transitions into a much more negative experience. All the symptoms of person addiction kick in, with the cravings, anxiety, withdrawal pains and intrusive thoughts.
For Tennov, all of these experiences are part of limerence. It is a changeable and multifaceted state that goes through phases. For others, it is only once the negative symptoms of person addiction begin to dominate that a person can be said to be experiencing limerence.
What lasts through all these disputes, though, is the fundamental reality of limerence as it’s experienced – an extraordinary state of obsessive, involuntary infatuation that feels profoundly different from everyday life.
When it happens, it really does feel as though you are in limerence.
Bug or feature?
Another way of looking at this dispute about definitions is to use the common coding analogy – is limerence a bug or a feature of our brains?
A bug is an unintended glitch or error that stops software working properly. A feature is something that is intentionally part of the operation of the software, even if a particular user finds it annoying or unnecessary.
In this case, the question is whether limerence is a natural mental state that people can enter because it confers some sort of survival or reproductive benefit (feature), or if limerence is revealing a flaw in our neural systems – that they can sometimes be driven into an abnormal state (bug).
A case can be made for limerence as a feature. It is a powerful built in drive to form a pair-bond, and that is a very effective reproductive strategy for humans. It’s not the only one of course, but the evolutionary benefits of co-parental investment during the critical early stages of a child’s health and development is self-evident. Limerence as a mechanism for securing a superlative pair bond makes sense.
The counter argument is that limerence is more like a bug. Obviously, seeking a mate is an imperative that the vast majority of people feel. Non-limerents form pair bonds, and lots of other relationship styles and structures exist than monogamous commitment. There’s no need for wildly over-the-top infatuation and ecstatic union in order to make babies.
Similarly, the extreme craving of limerence as person addiction is obviously detrimental to well being. In fact, the very existence of addictions is evidence that our neural systems are buggy. The basic neural mechanisms we evolved are not intelligently designed, they are riddled with instabilities.
Lots of natural processes – features of the brain – can go wrong. Anxiety, fear, desire, lust, hunger, are all useful, but can all become unstable and destructive under the wrong conditions.
In a world of scarcity, fats and sugar are premium rewards that are avidly sought. In a world full of doughnuts, the natural urge to seek them can cause harmful overindulgence.
Maybe limerence is the same – a feature that has built in instabilities?
So, come on then, what is limerence?
Cutting through the uncertainty and debate, I think there are four essential elements to limerence. It is:
- An altered mental state
- An intense drive to form a romantic pair-bond
- A behavioural addiction
- Defined by a set of characteristic symptoms that all limerents share
My best summary is:
Limerence is an altered state of mind, characterised by intense romantic infatuation with another person. Being with them gives you an intoxicating natural high, but if it goes on for too long it can become an unhealthy addiction.
Why does this matter?
Does any of this matter in practical terms, or is it just the usual academic quarrelling over details? Is it an important issue to have a clear and agreed definition of limerence?
I’d argue that it is important, because it helps make sense of the limerent experience, helps plan a strategy for managing the condition, and helps develop a more lasting treatment strategy for the more problematic cases.
There is an important distinction between a natural trait that some people have that can lead to bad outcomes if it’s mismanaged, and a medical problem arising from a disorder of the brain. You’d respond accordingly. There’s a difference between introversion and agoraphobia, even though the symptoms can overlap.
To give an example of why the definition matters, one of the common questions I get asked is “is limerence always bad?” The answer depends on how you make sense of limerence.
Often the question is prompted by a limerent suffering relationship problems, doing some research to try and understand what happened, and then discovering the concept of limerence and realising that it explains their feelings perfectly. As limerence is often discussed from the perspective of a disorder, it’s easy enough to see why someone would be worried that it’s a sign of unhealthy attachment style that means they are doomed to destructive relationships.
Of course, the other subtext for this question is the limerence feels AMAZING at first. The glorious intoxication of limerence is addictive for a reason. Few natural rewards compete with the exhilaration of limerent ecstasy. Once you’ve tasted that thrill, it’s hard to swear off it for good.
So, perhaps another way to phrase the question is “can you get the good feelings of limerence, without the bad consequences?”
If you see limerence as a natural trait that can become unstable, then the answer would be a qualified “Yes”. If limerence was a mental disorder, the answer would be a qualified “No.” Or perhaps, “it’s possible,” versus “it’s unlikely”.
And that brings us back to the ongoing discussion about the universal versus personal aspects of limerence.
For some of us, it is a early phase of love that can transform into a lasting bond.
For others its a warning sign that you have started to form and unhealthy bond.
Figuring out what limerence means to you, and who you respond to most often, decides the best way to integrate limerence into your life.
Such a great explanation, answered so many questions I had and never would off thought I would of done the things I did for someone who would of never really loved or cared about me 😔
@Phil. Amen to that – yet they’ll take all of those bits whilst it suits (unfair mass-generalisation, but a feature of my current LE). However, we do it because we want to, because being “of use” to LOs is what gives us the dopamine hit, and leaves us imagining that. Tiny act could lead to so much more.
@Just Me
So true, four times I have been through it with this woman. Played me like a fiddle and add her narcissistic manipulative side. Maybe she felt she had feelings for me but more like she liked the distraction from her unhappy marriage life.
@Phil. 4 times – same LO? That’s brutal. You do not deserve this. Without knowing any detail of your situation, you need to free yourself of this once and for all. I know that you know that society for stating the bleeding obvious. Wishing you strength and peace. Do keep me posted.
@Just Me
Yes the same LO over a 16 year period 😔 next month will be a year since she started getting cold and stopped speaking to me. Which she has done every time but I have changed my phone number and come off social media so it more difficult for her to find me and now I know what really caused me to think I felt something for her I will not be having anything to do with her ever again 😀
@Phil Great work. I had to change my number a few years ago to get rid of a previous LO. I even ended up getting the police to go round and give her a harassment warning! Why do we attract these (insert your own adjective here??).
Respect Phil. You’re moving away at last. 👏🏻👏🏻👊👊
Thank you 😊 and thank you for sharing.
Hey all. I’m posting a development.
I blocked my LO in the week. I was catching up with my “mentor” and buddy @csc about an hour ago. Five minutes later I got a Whattsapp from a mutual friend. She sent me a forwarded message from LO
“I can’t get through to …..is he ok? Send him this for me?” My friend doesn’t know what’s been going on. It was a Facebook work meme, something that LO has sent me a lot of over the last 2 weeks whilst I’ve been trying to go NC before blocking her. Thing for a week apart a request to help with a work thing, and then this!
I’m floored. I haven’t responded to mutual friend (MF). I feel bad for both of them. It’s so unlike me to stick to my guns, and not taco down. But as @csc and @LaR (and other marvellous folk here) will testify, I cannot go back. My day has been plunged into doubt and self-deprecation. I Sant believe that MF is now unwittingly involved. Is LO feeling so worried? Is that my fault??
Aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhh!! 😱😱😱
I meant “nothing for a week”. I really need to stop typing these on my phone!
Just me
Stick to your guns, keep 🤐 even to your MF, and smile. It’s your privacy, no need to explain!
What and how your LO feels/thinks is NOT your business, if you truly decides to go NC and obtain your sanity back. If she’s a player, she’ll try to pull the string on your neck again; if she’s a kind and mature enough, she’ll leave you alone and respect your space. (I don’t remember if she’s single or has SO as well).
I’m a 80% Stoic, please forgive my harsh words.
@justme
Sweet Jesus. Your LO is so far out of line I cannot even. Seriously. Gonna guess what others will say but honestly, you know how I am with this. For your sanity I hope you will not take the bait.
Involving a friend? Just…no. No. If she really wants to understand she can Wait, walk to your office, and *ask you to tell her*
Or, ask your mutual friend if you’re ok then accept the answer, yes he seems ok to me.
This is needless drama. Her
Can you imagine if you were actually with this person, the drama that she’d create? Not just for you … This kind of thing is a habit, people who do not have boundaries.
I understand her being concerned being upset whatever… But you do not involve a friend.
I’ll possibly get flamed for this but whatever I’ll be interested to hear what you think. It sounds like you’re kinda over it…?
@ccs and @ snowphoenix Thanks guys. I am going to stick to my guns. I have NOT replied to MF and have decided that I’m not going to. I don’t see MF very often so hoping that by the time I do she will have forgotten all about it. I’m really trying not to care if MF replies to LO or not. They can work it out between themselves. Snow angel, I’m still hoping that LO is kind and mature enough to let it be. I have my doubts, but maybe. She is single, btw…. I think….but let’s not go there 😱. Oh, and your words were not harsh. Thank you for being so objective. I need you, @LaR and @csc to stop me from sky-rocketing!
@csc yes I think I’m over it, thank you. I knew you’d understand. My empathy for her ex husband and 2 guys who she has “seen” whilst I’ve known her continues to increase very gradually. There are always 2 sides, I know.
Just me,
I was/am not an angle at all but a merciless tomgirl to Narcs — my drunk fist (after a glass of wine in the empty stomach) punched my Narc LO6’s face (from Oxbridge) in public in front of his colleagues/friends! Within half an hour, he was “pounding” at my door begging for forgiveness…. That’s a true nature of a Narc — an insecure paper-tiger! I didn’t regret one bit to this day !
Please do NOT punch your female LO, even if she’s a Narc; just pushes her away by a constant NC, especially if she’s single… Otherwise, you’d be a really selfish/mean limerent, dangling her around for your LE desires…. Then you’ll deserve your LE pains…
Sorry, a Stoic has few honey-coated words.
@justme
Yeah…I remember when snow told me some good advice (which I followed only after I had a relapse in a similar situation where LO was fishing around to see if I’d react to him)…
She said 🤐
But she also said do not rush.
You do not need to feel pressured to alleviate anything for LO. And you don’t need to feel guilty. Just know, you are the guardian of your privacy. And I bet that if you take your time, not rushing to react, in coming days you will feel so much better.
Once you can completely detach (which takes a while!) if you really feel you owe her an explanation you can provide one. But in my opinion that is best done completely cold ..when you are totally detached, clear-hearted over it, and no longer at risk.
Stay strong and keep updating –especially if you feel anxious or compromised! ♥️
It’s very hard when LOs reach out…no matter how they do it.
@snow phoenix. I LOVE your stoicism. I need that too! Wow – you went to town there! Secretly I love that you did that. I will most certainly not be taking that action – you will no doubt be delighted to hear!
@csc I have not and will not rush into anything. You’ll be pleased to hear that nothing has changed: she remains blocked and I see nothing happening to undo that. Nothing from MF since.
Thank you both xx
JM&MO
JM&MO,
I’m going to go partly with the grain of what your other repliers have said, but partly against. All of it should still sound consistent with anything I’ve said before.
With 🌾 – as NC was such a firm conviction for you, yes, stick with it! Ride the storm as will happen and eventually each day should start to feel a little better (and be patient with this – can need a couple of weeks to feel improvement).
Against 🌾 – you cannot possibly be sure what her motive is – anywhere between genuine concern and narc supply seeking. One day soon, that knock on your office door at work will happen. If you don’t want to prolong this, explain to her very clearly face to face why you need space and won’t be texting with her. Given your history of disclosure, telling the truth about why is an option. Or, alter it to invent another plausible reason.
Once you have said clearly ‘I need space’ (NC in personal life; I don’t know if professionally you can give it to each other 100%, or a very LC at least?), then if she still won’t grant it then you know her character for sure, and your hunches are right. If she will, also job done.
I think do yourself a favour and have that chat before she involves more mutual people and the whole thing becomes talk of the town at work – that really wouldn’t be fun.
Think how much better you’ll feel once you’ve done it.
Respect if others here want to go against my view, but JM did name-drop me so I felt my opinion was wanted. I take the point that JM is entitled to privacy, but I don’t see how it is realistic to ghost someone before explaining, who works in the same space and was once a friend.
Good luck and wishes.
Hi,
I wanted to stay out of the discussion because I’m on a completely other mindset and felt I couldn’t contribute. But now I want to second LaR- even if you do need to see LO as evil at the moment, you could view it from your own viewpoint- spare yourself the prolonged pain and trouble that follows when you behave enigmatically or out of the norm yourself- as he said, in your case of past disclosure, a short explanation will be enough to have peace of questions/attempts to seek you out etc.
The problem with work LOs is that a clean cut isn’t possible, and there could be a vexing string of questions, looks, rumors, attempted contacts, misunderstandings following. For me, that would be far more tormenting and complicating the LE than either behaving in a way that doesn’t provoke all those things, or doing the clean cut via explanation- but , I want to strain, only if I’m 100%sure that I can keep NC up in my current state of mind, because if I couldn’t follow up and wanted contact again only to shut it down once more, it would even wreak more havoc..
But of course that’s only me how I got to know myself over three LEs.
I just feel sorry to see that you are in pain over forced NC and wanted to add my two cents, but maybe it’s a necessary stage for you and I’m just butting in in the wrong way, then I‘m very sorry!
I wasn’t going to post about this again. As you just all be getting sick of me. But I’m becoming frantic.
This morning LO appeared at my office door. Fortunately I was in a teams meeting so couldn’t talk. She asked me if I was ok, I said I was, and asked her if she was. Then she left.
5 mins ago she sent me a Teams message: “anything nice for lunch”, and then “you ok? You seem off” I replied to the first one but ignored the second. I am certainly not having a conversation with her over teams.
I’m going to have to send her a message, aren’t I? I’m going to haven’t tell her that I need space, without going into any detail. I can’t help feeling guilty. I know I shouldn’t, but I do.
Really had enough of this.
JM
Hi JustMe,
We are not sick of you at all. I’m glad you asked for support because – gosh your LO is persistent, isn’t she?
Not sure why you are feeling guilty – if I was in your shoes I think I would be very cross at not being permitted to withdraw, especially given your previous disclosure. I am not sure that I would be feeling like I owed LO anything. I also think that I would be be getting a bit stubborn, at this point, and even more reluctant to give away any information. But instead just deflecting her away, on account of her not reading the room (that’s putting it mildly).
Also, you are a married man, so surely she can work out that its in your best interest to withdraw from her?
I would consider whether keeping to your NC is your best option as anything else just risks drawing her in even closer. Like, telling her what’s going on is kind of intimate, isn’t it? And while that’s appropriate in come contexts, I am not sure that it is for you on the basis of 1) your previous disclosure, 2) her persistence, even asking other people about you, and 3) your distress in the past which she witnessed (I think?).
I’d be interested to hear what others think but I’m pretty sure CSC will be horrified on your behalf with how LO is behaving.
Hi Justme,
I’m so sorry that your LO is acting this way. It sounds like you have been very clear in expressing that you need space and she has been quite disrespectful of this.
It also sounds like her wanting to make contact is purely for her benefit and it is incredibly unfair as you have already disclosed your feelings to her.
I honestly feel for you as being in the workplace there is obviously a need to keep things professional.
Please don’t feel that any of us would be feeling sick of you. This is a safe space for us to share exactly these feelings.
Is there anyway you could take a few days annual leave?
Cat
Just me,
You’ve got a devil on your sleeve!
As 🅱️ 🧙 said, You do not owe her anything❗️
Practice Stoicism here: Zip your lips towards her non-professional email. SILENCE, SILENCE, SILENCE!🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐
Walk with your head and chin held up slightly higher with steady, measured steps. If encountering her, politely smile and handle whatever team business is, then find excuses to “run”. If she asks you those annoying questions in person, absolutely 🤐 🤐 🤐 with smiles while CALMLY look at her eyes. — don’t sway off your eye contact yet not stare — that’s the biggest challenge (limerents could easily lose their eye sight into LO’s “caring” eyes.)
Imagine you’re Marcus Aurelius, who had to deal with hundreds foes each day and keep his kingdom in peace. Hold you chin high, keep an Emperor’s composure — picture Alec Guinness-emperor’s posture), pity your “enemies” inside (even if you already made the “disclosure” mistake) when dealing with them face-to-face.
Imagine and do it‼️
Yeah @bewitched you’re right. But I have no idea.
I’ve got withdrawal of my own to handle today…feeling trés sad. Not rlly a good advisor to anyone who’s Le my own ship is sinking.
Good luck justme do your thing
*while*
Hi CSC,
Aw, sorry to hear that and sorry for name checking you when you are having a bad day. I have had them myself, plenty times.
You’re going to pull through the sadness, you know? When I feel like this, I try to find something that makes me smile or even cry for a few minutes (sometimes I watch beautiful things on YouTube or listen to a beautiful piece of music).
We are all rooting for you here CSC 🫂
csc 🤖,
I disagree with my Dame 🅱️ 🧙here, although I’d run to her ultimately as my castle — why could I have a mother like her! (Now I have to mother myself and my own narc Mom! 😏)
As repeated many times before, I think you should quietly stay and stare at your sadness, while marathon running those saddest tones of your choice. Spend more time in solitude!
As a series limerent as you have self-claimed, running away would only temporarily numb or push down your already buried griefs inside. IMO, you need to dig out and liberate your unexpressed old griefs, with your therapist.
Sorry about my frankness.
Snow
“Practice Stoicism”
I have been reading up and watching some youtube videos on Stoicism and it amazes me that I naturally pretty stoic myself even though I didn’t know the actual term. I rarely let things bother me or need/want validation from others. (Except of course Momma, I want to know I am being a good husband.) Limerence has been the only thing that has broken through that stoic armour I never knew I wore. But at the first taste of limerence/LO I was Trainspotting like a fiend. I am still trying to get back to stoic me. It is exhausting but I am still making the effort.
Adam 🥃,
It is my LE that introduced and brought me into Stoicism during the summer of 2019. I was looking for a lasting emotional shield that could protect me from external opinions, especially xLO’s that time.
Its principles are not so hard to understand, but to practice to change our mentality and psychology to a Stoic mode is not a piece of cake, after how we all are molded by our conventional cultures. It takes time, endless, encircling battles against our ego (not executive Ego), and constant checking in our true mind, hidden desires, wishes… and what’s within our control and what is not — others and the world.
But even our own psychology is NOT within our control, due to the past experiences, stuff buried inside our Unconscious, and neurology influence, such as LE. During our altered state of mind, conscious will could NOT do that much, except wait for it runs out its course, while NOT feeding new food to LE.
Adam, I think you’re doing great in terms of dealing with your LE and that angelic LO! Let’s encourage each other to continue on this irreversible, health path. 🍻
****
p.s. Stoicism, like all other philosophies (Buddhism) or religious moralities (Christianity), is meant for an individual to practice and cultivate one’s characters. It should never be pushed onto others to practice or use it as a judgment on others — making it a form of control on others. Accepting life as it is, making efforts to improve our own, comprehending and appreciating the world around us, is one of life ultimate goals, IMO.
I’m sharing those Stoic mantra again —
*******
Today I might feel disappointed, lonely, depressed, angry, empty, jealousy, anxious, fearful, meaningless, insecure and panic.They are due to my emotional flashbacks. They may come but WILL always pass.
I am dying everyday, and will die at any given moment.
I will fail at whatever I do, and I’ll still try them at my best.
I might end up being alone for the rest of my life, and die alone.
The people I deal with today will be narcissistic, meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, deceitful, jealous, and surly.
I shall meet with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness. All of them are due to offenders’ ignorance of what’s good and evil.
Other people are plants and facts — you can’t change or control them, you may have some impact over them…
Choose not to be harmed, you won’t feel harmed
Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.
It’s foolish, unwise to try to escape other people’s faults, just try and escape your own.
There have to be shameless, unkind, ungrateful, insolent, disloyal, narcissistic people in the world. One in front of you might be just one of them. That a whole class must necessarily exist will enable you to tolerate its members.
*****
The last one is a kind of arrogant, but it could help one’s psychology, if a “devil” is standing in front of you and you can’t run away from then at work.
@Bewitched, @cat and @snow. Thanks for the reassurance. I’m so glad that I have found this safe space. Before I read your replies I had decided that I would send LO a simple “please give me space”. Having read your unanimous responses, I’m now not going to. I know, for one thing, that it will just start a long tortuous conversation that I really really don’t want to have and can’t face.
We have discussed my feelings for her in two occasions. Yes I admit that I told her I didn’t want her to back away (6 months or more ago) but surely knowing that I’ve struggled since, surely she gets the message? I’m also still cross at her following our work disagreement last week. Hopefully she will now get the message and back away. We’ll see, but thank you for your support.
To @csc, I’m so sorry to hear that you are struggling. Please know that we’re here for you, and I for one am thinking of you x
JM
Snow
“Adam, I think you’re doing great in terms of dealing with your LE and that angelic LO!”
See that’s the thing that still gets me. I can’t be mad at her. I can’t admit maybe she did like the attention and manipulated me to get it. That she may have been a narcissist.
Like when Momma makes me mad and I just gotta walk away. A couple of laps around the block and back in the house and I am not mad at her anymore. Even if it would have been totally justified for me to be so.
I have no desire to contact her. I have made no attempts. I don’t go to her social media. I try not to daydream about her. Limit the times that I dwell on memories that I cherish. Especially about her and her daughter too.
“The people I deal with today will be narcissistic, meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, deceitful, jealous, and surly.
I shall meet with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness. All of them are due to offenders’ ignorance of what’s good and evil.”
This will be my biggest hurdle to get over this last lingering bit of limerence to get back to my stoic self. I don’t even think her circling back, if she came back to work, would reignite my limerence. But it is very difficult to think of her as a “bad” person. I place the blame of this whole LE squarely on my shoulders.
Adam 🥃,
I never thought your LO was bad based on data provided in your case. Personally I think your LE had a lot to do with your upbringing, mother-son relationship, strict religion environment, etc. but I don’t want to go there, too deep of the water for me to waddle through (like my own COO — more strict than Christianity/Catholicism in some areas).
The focus of your LE should be on yourself, LO is just a catalyst triggering off some unresolved issues in you, IMP.
Stoicism is not seeing others already as devils, but prepare that might be a case at any given time — mental preparation. Only unknown is scary and unexpected shock and hurt unprepared mind.
Oh and @Cat, I’ve hit some leave at the end of next week 👍👍
Just been listening to one if these fake celeb podcasts on YT. Sorry for the length, but the first bit is all he and my LO. Sure it will resonate with others…. Too.
PS: I have not contacted her 🤐🤐
https://youtu.be/Ipsr0MBFJgI?si=bsiNGfnxOAguZfNY
Snow
That makes sense. Not thinking everyone is evil but being prepared for when you do encounter someone that is.
No I don’t think LO was anything but a fun and gracious woman. It just seems like I should be able to find some imperfection in her so I can see her as a realistic human being.
My mother was a …. what’s that American term? My mother was very attentive? Maybe a bit smothering at times. I was already a handful as a boy and I think that my mother over-corrected a lot trying to set me on a good path for adulthood.
LO “Adam smoking isn’t good for your heart condition.” “It’s hot out here. Are you drinking enough water?” “You need to at least eat something for energy even if you are not that hungry.” “You’ve been out here a long time, why don’t you come inside and cool down?”
All that I guess sounded like my mother always looking out for me, even when I was being self-destructive. Someone actually cared about me. Ugh this psychology stuff is not easy. And you can’t hide from it either. Cause it will come and bite you in the a$$.
Justme,
„ Yes I admit that I told her I didn’t want her to back away (6 months or more ago)“
well, I might disagree again with the others. I thought what I would do in your situation, and I think I would explain it to her in a short message, clearly stating that you need space and no other contact than work, and if she still doesn’t get it and tries to contact you, you can still freeze her out and not reply like you do know. But my guess is that she will answer once and then be quiet, if you get the right tone in your message.
I have to add, LOs were always decent people who would respect this and wouldn’t go and talk about it without respect to others etc. I don’t know your LO. But since there was disclosure, she could do that now if she was that person anyway.
It would give me personally more peace of mind to know that I stated my wish of no contact clearly. If she still ignores it, she must be a really obnoxious person which would probably help you get over her…
*like you do now
Morning @Mila. I’ve thought long and hard about your suggestion last night and this morning, and I’ve decided that’s what I will do. I’m hoping that it will achieve 2 things: a) it will leave her beyond doubt about what’s going on and why I’m withdrawing (assuming that she isn’t refusing to accept it, and if she is this will leave her with little choice) and b) whilst I know that ‘closure is an illusion’ it will hopefully give me some peace in that I have made my wishes clear.
You’re also right, in that don’t think that she will spread it around work. She’s known my feelings for at least 6 months now, she’s had ample time to do that. I guess the only risk is that I haven’t withdrawn before – so there is always an outside possibility that she’ll handle this differently.
I’ll keep you posted. Hope everyone has a good day
JM X
So, @Bewitched, @Snow, @Cat, @Csc. I did it. I met with her. A very short meeting to saying I need space, and cannot continue being friends. She replied saying that she was “a bit surprised”, but I could tell that she was quite shocked. Then she said “ just don’t see why we can’t have a normal work relationship”. And there in, clearly lies the problem. She then said “Bye”, and stood up and walked away.
Withdrawing was clearly never going to work. She just was not able, or refusing, to take the hint.
I don’t feel good, I feel pretty rubbish. I am trying to repeat the mantra of Dr L’s “closure is an illusion”. I didn’t do it for closure, I know that comes later. I did it so that I can move on with my life, and begin to release myself from an LE with an LO who is totally non-Limerant, and is totally unable to understand my pain. That’s not her fault. None of this is. But also know that I can’t own her reaction and what she now thinks of me. But I still feel sad and guilty towards her.
Thanks for listening.
JM&MO
Hi Justme,
sorry you feel bad! I still think it was a good move because things are out in the open, you were sincere and honest with her and if she cannot appreciate that it‘s her problem. She‘s not the one to define what a „normal work relationship“ is.
I think you are right and she is a non-limerent person, but she can still respect what you tell her.
And I think if you really wanted that NC, this was the only way to get it, otherwise she would have pursued you again and again. Now it hurts but it’s done.
I feel for you, and I think she’s being insensitive. But maybe she was just shocked and a bit sad too, and she will understand with more reflection. And if not, is she really that great as a friend or LO..?
Dear @Mila. Sorry, I forgot to name check you!
I’ve just seen that you have replied, I’ll read and respond later x
JM, 👏👏👏
I’m proud for you to have done it!
From pieces of data you provided, I strongly sensed that she’s a game player, if not a full-blown narc. She wanted your attention/LE affection (after you disclosed), so played dumb and wouldn’t leave you alone even after you gave strong hints. A normal woman is sensitive when guys withdrew his attention, even just a tone of voice and a slight body posture.
Yes, follow Dr.L’s advice, do not expect some formal closure, it will take place much later. Be firm in dealing with her at work, all “right” is on your side (if you haven’t sent her some possibly compromising messages?)!
Keep going — hold your chin high, carry smile and polite, and walk like an Emperor…
Hi JustMe,
I hope she leaves you alone now.
Re:
“Then she said “ just don’t see why we can’t have a normal work relationship”. And there in, clearly lies the problem. She then said “Bye”, and stood up and walked away.”
Would you characterise what had been going on as ‘normal work relationship’?
And was that normal for you or comparable to other work relationships (particularly with females?)
As you are married, something LO knows well, and as you disclosed – twice – I tend to believe that she was indeed a bit wilfully or actually obtuse. She doesnt seem to have valued your position…..
I am saying this to spell out reasons not to feel guilty.
Thank you all for your affirmation and validation. I am certain that I have done the right thing. My guilt and Limerant brain are screaming at me though 😔
Justme,
👏👏👏👏
Great decision. Doubt dispelled. You should now have a better chance to get the space you need and if not, it is now firmly on her and you don’t have to respond.
I get you may be guilt-tripped but stay strong as I believe you’ve done a right and good thing there.
Hi JustMe,
Good for you. You are doing the right thing.
I am struggling somewhat myself at this time in my particular phase of LE.
I have learnt enough to deal with it better than I am, but it’s difficult to let go. So I understand your lim-brain is going to be in a bit of shock over your executive brains leadership action today.
Lim-brain will ‘get the memo’, in good time.
Hi Imho,
did you go NC too or decide to keep contact once he left work? Just curious.
Sorry to hear that you struggle. I struggle a bit with the mini- glimmer of the possible XLO- replacement. I can see it for what it is- my lim brain looking for the next LE (basically the replacement for XLO not only in work but in limerence too)- but it’s interesting how difficult it is to shut it down. I feel downright schizophrenic- one part of me feels driven toward old patterns, the other one just shakes its head and desists.
It’s still far from limerence, thank god, and I find it interesting to observe myself, I have to say.
I hope you manage to get out of the rough patch you are in! Sending my best wishes and of course 😘
@LaR and @IMHO. Thanks guys. It’s been a tough day, and I can’t stop thinking about her “hurting”, but the truth is she’s not hurting over losing me, she’s lost control of someone. IMHO: thanks for sharing your insecurities today. I’m sorry that you’re struggling too, please keep me posted tomorrow.
Hi Justme,
Sorry for the late response, my LE is very up and down at the moment. I’ll update when I’m ready.
I am glad that you were able to have an honest conversation with your LO and ask her for space. How are you feeling today after reflecting on yesterday?
I really hope that she is respectful of your decision. I imagine that she is likely in shock as she probably didn’t expect you to ever end the friendship. Regardless of what she may feel or think of the situation, if she truly did value you as a friend she would understand. As others have mentioned to me, you need to be a bit selfish for your own piece of mind.
You’ve done the hardest step now. And although it won’t be easy for a while you are going in the right direction to free yourself from this LE. I saw you confirmed you had some leave coming up. Focus on some things you can do for yourself to bring you some joy, no matter how small they might be.
We are here for you.
Cat
Hi Mila,
Thanks for your wishes as always. You are my cheerleader and I appreciate it more than you know.
I get the schizophrenic thing, and I really don’t like it. It’s cognitive dissonance for me and I’m trying to do better in that regard. Its impact goes beyond limerence too.
I wonder if it’s a bit hardwired these glimmers for you. You have a lot of self awareness now that will help you I’m sure.
Will be in touch soon, just need to get through next couple of days
p.s: I came across this video that I you may find helpful. I apologise as it’s a little long.
https://youtu.be/kZ4ck4By-yA?si=nsQiCpPvUEPwbJkC
It references ‘he’, but I believe it is still true for ‘she’.
I think it’s a good watch for anyone that is thinking of, or has recently gone NC. Especially if your LO is also reliant on you in some way.
Dear @cat. Thanks so much for getting in touch. I’m sorry that you’re having a hard time atm. Thanks for the reassurance you’re there, the same applies.
I have mixed feelings this morning. I still know I’ve done the night thing, and I keep re-reading all the lovely comments which support what I’ve done, and why. I don’t think I would’ve had the courage without this community.
I’m still feeling sad, and Thursday mornings are always difficult. This is because LO goes to “stay with a friend” every Wednesday night. She’s always been quite coy about it, but she did let slip a while ago that it’s a man. When I asked her who she stayed with (quite casually as part of the conversation) she was again coy and didn’t really give me a straight answer. I’ve suspected for some time that she has been sleeping with someone on a weekly basis – although it’s possible that it’s just my paranoia, but it makes me sick with anxiety. So I’ve that to contend with too. But I shall continue moving forwards and do the best I can. Yes I’m looking forward to my leave at the end of next week.
Thanks again for your support. Here for you when you’re ready x
JM
@cat thanks so for the video. I’ll watch it later x
Hi Imho,
I also want to make it to middle of next week, basically.
As for now, I can see clearly what lim brain is attempting, and it’s not so difficult not to follow it, I can just leave it be, but it affects my mood…
Wish you the best for the next days!
Hi @Justme
This is a weird place to put this message but I was just hoping you’d see it – so, I apologize if I’m popping in weirdly, Phil! (Hi Phil!)
I just wanted to say good Sunday morning to you and hope you’re faring ok. I saw that you’re feeling a bit blue and conflicted. I felt that way last night…today I’m ok for now (thank you coffee!)
But, it’s definitely an up and down. And without the buzz and drama of LO / LE it’s nowhere near fun. It’s weird and grey, and like…where is the dang dopamine.
I know. I don’t want to have to re-pave this road, either. And I sure don’t want to go back to feeling like LO has total control over me, which he did. It’s frightening to think someone else, no matter who, had total control over my mind and life.
IDK about you, but I’m finding I’m getting triggered a lot. I’m seeing things that remind me of LO and it’s painful. But, according to what I’ve read, that pain is necessary to process this…and to eventually beyond. We are doing the right thing. Stay strong my friend, we are doing a good job, even if we feel like we are not.
Hugs,
csc
My dear friend @csc. Thank you so much for reaching out. I’m actually not doing too bad, I’m managing to distract myself and doing (reasonably) well at pushing thoughts of her out of my mind. My biggest thing today is a constant anxiety (butterflies) in my stomach. I feel like LE is disempowering me from functioning, and because now have just a little understanding of what’s happening, it seems so unfair.
Part of me still wants LO to be wondering – heck even missing me – yet the knowledge that this is neither my problem, nor within my control, is strangely , if only slightly, freeing. I’m hoping all if that makes sense.
We will complete this journey. We’ll both sing along to the car radio and watch the countryside go by. The one thing we will absolutely not do, is turn around and go back.
Thank you for being there. Have a lovely Sunday x
JM
Hi @CSC
No problem at all 😊 sorry to hear what you’re going through 😔
The power of silence, especially on Narcs (don’t do this in order to lure them back, then you become a narc) —
https://youtu.be/S7O0A8oU4gY?si=uUp6W573JDINfJZX — “No Begging, No Chasing, No Texting, No Games | Anthony Hopkins
I even felt sorry 🪷 for them after giving a dose of silence/NC to them and seeing pitiful fear on their face, Mom included; then they, as a flawed human being, were forgiven, but not their Narc deeds! — don’t ever EXPECT a baked cake can be unbaked.
Wow. Thank you. Very powerful.
@justme @snow
yeah I’m a big fan of this kind of video, the weird AI generated stoic stuff and sigma personality stuff was playing non stop in my headphones for about 2 weeks before I decided to detonate contact 😂
it’s such a rabbit-hole of YouTube…at times I felt weird following chat gpt advice from a fake Denzel Washington or the like but honestly it works and at my lowest points has helped focus me, helped me do what I was struggling to do.
@justme good luck this Monday. Will be interested to hear how it goes 🙃
@LaR and @Mila
You don’t need any invitation to join my conversations, it is always a delight to hear from you. Thank you both for taking the time to reply.
I know in my heart that you’re right. It is something that will most likely need to happen. However think that I need a little time to a) organise my thoughts around how I explain this rationally, and b) for my annoyance to subside a little.
I don’t think she’s evil. I think that my LO has certain characteristics that make the fact that she’s an unwitting LO difficult. But I am grieving, and I’m hurting. I don’t blame her for my LE, but ultimately she is behaving and has behaved in ways that my recovery more difficult, and I need space to process that before I can give her a respectful and sincere explanation.
Thank you both for your contributions. I appreciate you writing to me.
JM
@csc, @LaR, @snowphoenix (and anyone else who is interested!).
LO won’t leave it. I’m WFH today but apparently she has been to my office. She has also sent me a teams today to ask if I’m wfh all week (I’m not). It could of course be argued that this is a legitimate work query, but that’s all it says. It actually makes no difference whatsoever to her. I have replied briefly and politely, but I think I’m going to have communicate my need space to her. To me this is yet another attempt at water-testing. She must know surely that I am upset at how she behaved following our disagreement last week. She definitely knows about my feelings. Is she just avoiding the issue (copyright Dr L) or is she just completely unaware? Given that I have disclosed to her – she can’t be?!
@justme
In my opinion you communicated to her over teams regarding the work matter she asked about, no further communication is required. Especially if you disclosed, prior. You owe her nothing.
If you disclosed and she knew your feelings and did not reciprocate, and now you’ve withdrawn, she can surely figure it out.
You owe her nothing. Let her spin. If she starts beating the bushes for gossip or whatever at work, let her. It’s usually a bad look.
You have every right to keep to yourself. If it comes to a head with colleagues just say you’re at a time in life where you need privacy and you’re not able to say more at this time. Just my two cents, I personally would not engage her. She sounds like she will use and maybe even manipulate whatever you give her…is that the case?
@csc I’m not sure that she would do that, but I agree that I think that I have communicated so much to her already. I know her well enough to judge that she is more than intelligent enough to figure out what my withdrawal is (although I have before and continue to question her emotional intelligence). I guess I know that you’re spot on correct. I think that the guilt about not getting “closure” for her (although I know that’s road to nowhere) has overtaken me somewhat today.
Thank you my dear friend x
@justme
There are some who believe closure is impossible from an external source, that it, or a working version of it, is only possible from within.
I feel the other L’s make good points about being conscious of what is required for the work environment (and better extension your ongoing employment etc…)
I am giving this a cold read so PLEASE don’t take this as a put-down. I am only trying to be a voice for your protection…But she’s being so rapid-fire…to me, the frequency and variety of her reaching out are a tell. Clearly you are ok. You’re at work, you are alive, not hospitalized, obviously. Her persistence means she’s concerned about herself. How she feels. At this point it’s got nothing to do with you. You’re just the source of her pain. It’s not you as a person.
It’s almost like she needs some kind of stimulation. Like…press a button get a reaction. You’re not a button you’re a person. And you disclosed… She’s not interested in that way…if I were her in this instance, I’d be sad, I’d know you were hurt. But I’d know if you disclosed feelings for me it would be borderline sadistic and selfish to keep dangling interactions when you clearly are withdrawing…
I actually did have a situation like this, a person who liked me, he asked me out then withdrew when I declined. I still care, we are still able to communicate, and sometimes do. But it’s not fair to reach out often…even if I want to. I like him a lot! But I respect him too. So, why would I ever want to torture him??? It would be purely selfish if I did, because I needed an ego boost
Just…no. a grown up doesn’t do that to other people who have made those feelings known. This is adult life not third grade.
No offense to third graders! 😊
@csc. Thanks for that – as I sit calmly and reflect on her actions I see definite polarity between them and your words. I shall continue with my plan – and hope 🤞🏻🤞🏻
How’s Monday for you? X
JM
thanks, @justme
I am glad it sounds like you got the gist of what I was getting at…It’s not that I think she never felt anything, or doesn’t feel anything for you (that is not for me to say, or know!) …I was trying to make sure you didn’t fall prey to her trying to help herself, in her own state, while setting yourself back…I myself can easily see, at this point, wanting to assuage LO’s fears or sadness…because I still care for him!…if this happened to me.
But, I also think it would be a huge setback for me mentally…so that’s why I detailed my thinking about her stream of actions towards you. I would use the word barrage, but…haha I guess I won’t… 😉
I’m ok. I am staving off feelings of guilt for ghosting my LO to save myself. Barring some major breach, he has no way to get in touch with me. He has quite an ego, so I think even if he tried, he would not do so more than once.
I am looking at my life and feeling quite gray without LO. But I also have no dopamine, soooo….things look boring. I feel boring, lost and mindblown from the energy it took to solidify NC last week. I believe this is normal, so I just have to go through. I also know as I feel more myself I will need to look at my relationship with SO, which is the real issue, or a major one. The real real issue is that I never knew how to trust anyone, so I made the safest choices I could, and now I am out on a limb, never having lived the life I imagined. How to live that life? I do not want to die one without being able to say even if I didn’t succeed…I tried.
Oddly enough, as I finished up yoga yesterday (in the dark and weird, cave-like gym where I go, now that I will not go where LO3and I used to both go) I got a text from….LO2 (xLO2?). I have not heard from him in maybe over a year. When I had last heard from him, I did not reply. I believe I have detached from him, completely now. I can safely interact with him, the attraction is completely gone, I am certain.
Hearing from him did feel good though, knowing I’m not as forgettable as I feel. 🙂 sigh.
TLDR haha don’t even ask me how I feel, i will give you more than you bargained for ha
but it means a lot you would ask, thank you friend.
x
csc
Thanks @csc. And thank you for sharing with me how you are doing. I will keep asking, and you can reply in however much or little detail you see fit.
Hugs
JM x
Just me,
Don’t check a mirror of yourself anywhere, unless when shaving!
Imaginations would NOT work if one often looks themselves in a mirror, without which, one can appear anything — 🤴, 👸, 🐦🔥 , 🐉 … etc…
Edit: without a vanity mirror, one can think and feel anything s/he wants to, and then naturally and confidently act out accordingly…
So walk, talk, and smile like Marcus Aurelius – one of three Stoicism founders!
@LaR and @IMHO. Thanks guys. It’s been a tough day, and I can’t stop thinking about her “hurting”, but the truth is she’s not hurting over losing me, she’s lost control of someone. IMHO: thanks for sharing your insecurities today. I’m sorry that you’re struggling too, please keep me posted tomorrow.
Limerence becomes…..lessons in Life.
Limerence causes a number of existential questions to be asked.
Limerence wakes us up.
Limerence challenges us and reminds us that a ’secure status quo’ is not a natural state.
Limerence leads us on a journey of discovery about ourselves. And how we relate and function within ourselves, how we relate to others and how we live our lives.
Pain and triggers are signals and the body and mind’s way to tell us something. We are not mindless tourists in a coach, passengers in our life journey.
@CamillaGeorge
Very wise words 😊
@CamillaGeorge
That is most definitely what Limerence did for me.
I feel you need to listen to what your body and mind are trying to tell you.
If you don’t, it will only get louder.
My message (a second ago) just proved another synchronicity — I was thinking about your and your post from the other day
CamillaGeorge,
Long time no “seen”, so glad to hear your voice again!
Your post has covered limerence’s philosophical aspects so thoroughly that I found I can’t add any point from my personal LE experience, except that an (un)attainable or ignorant LO could not, most likely never, get this life-changing opportunity and its HUGE benefits (if limerent is able to treat it as a vital life lesson! )
I was on the other side as a LO more than a dozen of times and learned almost nothing about life and myself! Not to be cynical here, between LO and Limerent, I’d still choose to be the latter, now after I’ve learned so much about LE. To me, it’s always better/inspirational to be a creator, a maker, and a doer than being made a passive, fantasied Object, even if a worshiped “god/goddess”!
While still not totally out of the LE wood yet, after having suffered all its pains, which probably triggered a lymphoma, I really appreciate that my LE has finally brought me to the driver’s seat for the first time in my mostly ignorant, suffered life.
Like what Anna said the other day in another blog, in hindsight, I regret nothing in my LE journey, except it could be shorter if I had discovered LwL earlier. There are not enough (ESL) words to express enough my gratitude to DrL and some ghost/soul companions here, especially those non-echoing ones….
To all,
If you want to complain and shoot worst bullets at your own LO(s), please say “My (x)LO…”. If you generalize LOs as if they were all game-playing doggy/Narc LOs, I’ll use data in your stories to verbally “fire” at you, until DrL kicks me out… He does not want echo-chambers in LwL.
LOs are human beings with all colors like limerents, who have made them an Object, often a “god” in the earlier stage of limerence, and then a “demon” when things do not follow limerents’ script in our head.
Do you know in depth or have you thought of how your LO feels about being treated as an Object, instead of a round human being wishing to be truly listened to, understood, and connected with genuine friendship or romantic affection?
When you have a SO yet still chase your LO for whatever reasons or life adversities, do you anticipate and comprehend what would/could be going on in your LO’s head, even if s/he is also attracted to you as you have dreamt? Do you want them to bend over towards your desires to be your side chick/lover, even just at emotional level, when you carry on a “secure status quo” lifestyle?
Thank Zeus, my stubborn pride has prevented me to be a side-chick (of my xLO), who would not be truly cared and treated as a round human being. I’m proud that I’ve endured and conquered the pain of dissatisfying my Aphrodite…
@Snow
I was just thinking about this today~synchronicity maybe?
I’m as guilty as all hell for this. Sure my xLO maybe a Narcissist but he’s just a guy with a personality disorder.
He probably suffers everyday with it and more than likely he was raised by Narc parents, so it really isn’t even his fault.
And to be more brutally honest in the beginning I was getting as much (supply) out of our LE as he was, different reasons but kinda the same.
I had to demonize him in my mind to make myself feel better. And that was a pretty shi**y to do.
Once I took responsibility for MY active part in keeping the fantasy alive I could see what I was actually doing.
I was using him to get my needs met, he was just an object
I was ashamed of myself but it was also the time I started to shake off the fog.
So, yeah you’re right we treat them like an object and that’s a selfish thing to do. But when you’re looking for that “high” you don’t think about that, not until much, much later.
Anna,
Compared to what we had discussed last year, you and I have moved so much forward — no longer hold a victim mentality and have turned our LE into the toughest yet most beneficial life lessons. I’m encouraged by your progress.
I think if more limerents could, like you, take responsibilities for their own LE driven behavior, take time and efforts to analyze tangible or intangible causes of such brain infliction, and take a challenging calling to their self-discovery, self-actualization and individuation path, they would have suffered so much less.
It’s great that LwL is a safe haven for suffering limerents to freely dump out their ocean of LE pains and lamentations. However, too much echoing each other, while not rationally think for the other side of the same equation/coin— their most desired objectified person, they would end up enabling or elongating their LE unwise behaviors and mentality.
I think this site, along with each Individual’s realistic resources, could be an “authentic” place (where else limerents would open themselves up?) to learn about how LE has affected our realistic life in details, how to truly care for/love another human being, how to avoid possible future LEs, and how to continue growing ourselves — aren’t they all our true, beneficial “selfish” needs?
You know how much I like sincere, passionate debates to the point of getting attacked by 💎s and 🥔 s and then of kicking their ghostly👖 ⁉️ (a very effective way to beat possibly inherited depression ☺️ )
@Snowphoenix.
“There are not enough (ESL) words to express enough my gratitude to DrL and some ghost/soul companions here, especially those non-echoing ones….”
Is that the tiniest little whisper of humility coming out of your phantom lips at last? Hahaha! Oh dear. The world truly is ending. The avatar of the proud goddess Aphrodite has decided to be a tad gracious and self-reflective for a change. Maybe the influence of the great god Pan is rubbing off on her, after all… 🙄😜
By the way, when my older sister visited recently, I told her all about you. “There’s this interesting commentator on the blog I sometimes visit. I can’t remember her name. Frozenpheasant? Tundraflamingo? ArticChicken? Don’t worry – it will come to me eventually. Anyway, get this – she spells her name in emojis!”
Sammy’s older sister: **slaps thigh and almost cries with laugher** “Oh my God! I love it! I love it!” 😁
Thank you for giving the Sammy-Sams household many hours of delicious free entertainment. You may well be the funniest person here, if we count unintentional humour. My older sister and I both think you’re the most adorable stoic-Buddhist-hedonist-decadent-semi-permanent-fugitive-from-the-thought-police we know. 🙂
Say, do you remember when you first came to LwL and was like: “Hi! My name is TropicalBirdLady, and I like people to ask me embarrassing personal questions about my imaginary love life…” 🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, um, no. Not gonna happen. I don’t believe in asking people questions – it’s against my religion. Like most posters here, in case you haven’t noticed, I’m a **cough, cough** introvert. I’d rather go through your handbag and claim any loose premium chocolates. 🙂
🥱 🥱🥱…
Who at this early hour disturbs 280 year old, the One and Only ❄️ 🐦🔥 in the entire galaxy ⁉️
🤦♀️ oh no! that green-faced, annoying, grumpy, eternally “cough, cough” Pan! 🙄 Which of my ancestors had a feud with descents of Zeus, which often sent this cheeky Pan after 🐦🔥 ‘s 🪽 🪽 ❓
Why couldn’t he leave the old bird alone resting in peace at least in LwL❓Too bored elsewhere outside Mount Olympia❓Resilient humans could keep their words, this cheeky Pan cannot and doesn’t care after his universe-shattering swearings, and even become a multi-faced stalker in the LwL 🙄 …
“The world truly is ending”❓ Nay❗️ As long as the eternal chameleon Aphrodite still inhales and exhales, and the restless, shameless Pan dives up and down, the world won’t end and is always in charging for a new edition of “War and Peace” between soaring and falling deities 🪽 🪽 ‼️ 😎
“Anyway, get this – she spells her name in emojis!”
That’s not it! She tells vivid stories and blows her purple proses in emojis as well… Pan needs to get his sister a dictionary of emojis and inform her the 🐦🔥’s legend — at least as one of the 35th direct descents of the poet emperor (Li Yu — Southern Tang) who traded the great Tang Dynasty for his purple prose! Talking about 🧬 of 🐦🔥 !
“My older sister and I both think you’re the most adorable stoic-Buddhist-hedonist-decadent-semi-permanent-fugitive-from-the-thought-police we know. 🙂 “
🙄 Only 6 (lucky number in her land) adjectives for a “grandiose” immortal 🐦🔥⁉️ That’s stingy! The “cough, cough” Pan needs reading glasses to discover more adjectives in Queen’s dictionary for his archetypical, irresistibly irritating rival in the Solar rings❗️
“I don’t believe in asking people questions – it’s against my religion. Like most posters here, in case you haven’t noticed, I’m a **cough, cough** introvert.”
Thank you for “saving face” for the magnificent yet naive 🐦🔥 ! But even if you do bother her, in your grumpiest state, with some embarrassing personal questions, that would be futile — no blushing could be ever seen on her 🔴 face, Ha❗️😜 On the other hand, think about and take care of your own 🤢 , should she 💥 her 🔥 on your cheekbones! 🤭
“I’d rather go through your handbag and claim any loose premium chocolates. 🙂 “
Oh, no, no, no! 🍅 copied her 🍫 sister’s discipline, savored her Hu delight and saved last piece, one each of the two kind, in her purse. Now the greedy thought police is stalking and chasing her for them — 🍅 🏃🏻♀️ 🏃🏻♀️ 🏃🏻♀️ 🤢 ‼️
Sammash 👈🏿 🍫🔫🍫🔫
My apologies if my words are wrong and I understand my mistakes.
Not sure whom you’re talking to, but you did not offend me in any ways.
I just don’t think it’s helpful to generalize LOs, since they are different from each other.
If I were you, I’d ask myself, “why do I allow the same LO come and go into my life 4 times over 16 years?”
We cannot control anyone else, but only how we react to uncountable people and matters in our life…
Be well…
Thank you 🤗
I just saw LO and made the conscious choice to turn the other way. He didn’t see me.
I was so tempted to speak to him, but I did the right thing and turned away.
I would like to say that I feel empowered, but I just feel rattled.
NORMA!!!!!
You goddess!!! ♥️
You are amazing. I’m sure you had a rush of stress cortisol…or similar. That usually makes one feel rattled, even to the point of feeling shaky.
are you going to treat yourself to something in celebration?
Norma, 💪 s💪 🔋🔋 👏 👏 👏
It’s expected to feel rattled, and perhaps deeply sad/grief, later. Get some treat for yourself, listen to somber music of your choice (not joyful ones to escape), stay fully with a range of your surging and ebbing emotions, and then chat storm here if you wish.
🫂
Ha! @snow we were thinking the same thing for Norma it looks like! 😁
Thank you Snowphoenix and CSC. I got some frozen yogurt.
Still rattled, but the yogurt hits the spot.
Norma,
Feeling rattled is normal and it will pass in time.
Can you tolerate sad music that could express your present emotions or make you cry? Tears can release a lot of stress and shakiness. Can you take a hot bath with scented oil or salt? Is it warm enough in your area to take a walk among trees or in a park? Or simply take a long nap?
Have a faith that you WILL feel better, that now you’re empowered and driving the car of your wellbeing!
We are here with you…
To Snowphoenix:
Thank you so much for your kind words. I really appreciate the encouragement.
How are you, Norma?
I hope you’ve been feeing better, even if slightly…
Just let you know that I haven’t forgotten you, although I have zoomed around the entire universe, it seems…
🫂
Thank you so much for asking about me. I wish I had your energy!
I am about the same. Still stuck. However, I can look back at where I was two years ago and see how much progress I have made.
A portion of my discomfort has just worn off naturally with the passage of time.
Normal,
Sounds you have a good progress! 👍
Take one steady, solid step at a day, then over time we could build an internal “Great Wall” (like one in China)! Keep going! 💪
i just wanted to chime in as well, @norma
i remember your first post here, and how you felt. as a bystander, i feel you have come very far, through a very, very difficult situation, and treatment you did not deserve. you have done for yourself, and that is inspiring to me, in my own situation.
you are strong, norma. i am glad you provided an update.
x csc
Okies. This is a question I feel gloriously overqualified to answer… (Still doesn’t mean I’m going to give the right answer, though). 🙂
First, the joke answer. What is limerence? Nobody **cough, cough** actually knows. Oh gosh! This is so embarrassing! We’re talking about something even professionals can’t define! We’re talking about something that maybe doesn’t even exist! Let’s play it safe and just stop talking about it. 🤣
I’m glad I wrote poetry while limerent, because said poetry functions as a record of my emotions during that time. Without a physical record of my own emotional ups and downs, I’d probably be tempted now (post-limerence) to gaslight myself (or flatter myself) into believing that limerence never happened to me and I was never in an altered state. Altered states are for, you know, other little bunny wabbits. I myself of course never experienced anything so destabilising and all-consuming. I am above such things as **cough, cough** romantic love. 😁
If I had a child and that child came to me and asked me what limerence is, I would probably give them a much-oversimplified answer:
Limerence is unrequited love. Unrequited love may be painful, but it’s not pathological. Unrequited love is also very common. Almost everyone at some point in their life will like someone a lot more than that other person likes them back.
Building on this foundation, I’d explain to a slightly older child that limerence is just a much more intense version of unrequited love. In other words, limerence is an exaggerated version of a perfectly normal, mundane human experience. Where does the intensity come from? Well, in my case, I think it stemmed from autism. As a person with autism, I can experience extremely intense and vivid emotion in response to things that interest me, which can include hobbies and literal objects.
If an adult asked me what limerence is, I’d tell them that limerence is an “altered state”. It is something that is primarily taking place in the mind. Limerence is more than a platonic friendship and it is less than an established romantic relationship. It isn’t stalking. It’s a state of feeling totally consumed by one’s feelings for a particular person while doing very little to pursue that person. (I always hoped my LO might read my mind and pursue me. He never did). 😜
For me, personally, limerence felt like splashing around in a sea made of dopamine. Perhaps, when one first visited the beach, the weather was fine and everything was calm. However, storms can soon appear out of nowhere and ravage the beach. The beach can also alternate between sunny and stormy weather (during the full-blown addiction stage, replete with highs and lows).
I’d say limerence generally occurs for someone one doesn’t know very well because limerence is all about fantasy, especially the fantasy of “what if?” The exciting part of limerence comes from fantasising. (Hence, the countless LwLers would want to fantasise publicly about their LOs in a feverish manner, annoying the heck out of other posters, who aren’t caught up in the exact same reverie. But talking obsessively about an imagined relationship doesn’t make the relationship any less imagined in nature, and may eventually exacerbate one’s sense of distress, one’s feeling of being victimised and/or cruelly denied by the universe).
Where limerence can turn tragic is sometimes the fantasy can become compulsory and take over one’s whole mind. At some point, one doesn’t need to think about LO consciously to be in an altered state – the brain will create associations automatically, and one will get a dopamine hit even from associations that the brain has confected spontaneously out of seemingly nothing. As long as one’s brain gives one LO-themed dopamine hits, no matter how small, one will suffer from withdrawals or “lows”, no matter how small. One’s reptile brain is compelling one to focus on extremely narrow yet highly salient stimuli i.e. LO. Tragedy arises from either wasted time or de-prioritising real relationships.
If I’m completely honest, I didn’t have a relationship with my LO – no, not even a hint of a platonic friendship. He played an extremely insignificant role in my life, all things considered. Maybe he gave me some eye contact. Maybe he said some friendly words. Maybe he tolerated my presence occasionally. But the rest was in my imagination. And what an avid imagination it was and is! 🤣🤣🤣
What nudged me out of my limerence was basically comparing our relationship timelines and realising that there was never a big enough “gap” in his relationship history where he would have had free time/energy to think about me. I only started to feel serious about him at around 16, and he had already found someone else to be very, very serious about at that age. There’s no overlap in our timelines.
“There’s no need for wildly over-the-top infatuation and ecstatic union in order to make babies.”
Yes, agreed. What a winning way you have with words, Dr. L! However, I think “over-the-top infatuation” and “ecstatic union” might (on a subjective level) feel essential to some people. It certainly helps with the mate selection process, whittling down the number of potential acceptable candidates to almost zero. Plus, it might help highly neurotic individuals – particularly females – overcome deeply-rooted fears/concerns around sexuality and the very real risks inherent in engaging in sexual activity.
When limerence is mutual, I daresay, often there lingers in the limerent’s mind the illusion that one did indeed freely choose one’s partner, and one feels very satisfied with that choice – at least until the next limerent episode comes round! In other words, I’m guessing limerence may boost “satisfaction levels” with one’s chosen mate during and shortly after the mate selection process. Since human beings are such intensely emotional creatures, feeling satisfied can only bode well for any budding attachment. 🙂
“Person addiction” is what I say when non-limerent person talks about infatuation. One of my current female co-workers, when I mentioned LO, asked me “It’s been almost 3 years why do you give this woman space in your head?” I told her “the same reason I have been drinking for 30 years. Some addictions are harder to kick than others.”
So I am in the camp of limerence being a bug. The same as I am in the camp of alcoholism is not a disease, it is a lack of self-control. That’s not a statement of science or fact, just my experience with both.
I think the summary I have come to after thinking about this since finding LwL is that Limerence is what you (Dr L) define as the 4 core characteristics. But that is not what drives conversation here, or the search for meaning.
For me the real variances are not about limerence itself, that seems actually a very common experience. I can’t recall many disputes here about how limerence feels. Really the discussions here are about:
(1) how (and why) people enter the addiction. There seem to be lots of different drivers (trauma, other ‘conditions’, attachment issues, a penchant for unrequited love, rescue fantasies etc.) and to some extent this defines the off-ramp different people need or have to use, (or in some cases refuse to use)
(2) how it compares to ‘normal’ love and to what extent they overlap – as someone with an SO who I love but wasn’t limerent for, it felt a lot calmer, in some ways just not as blaringly intense, and if I am being disparaging, slightly pale, but it sort of caught up with me at some point and is very steady. But I suspect my version of non limerent love may be less intense than people not prone to limerence at all, and when I was young I had non limerent relationships that were very intense. Others here likely have different perspectives, and it is perhaps a bit underexplored in the community due to the naturally low number of non limerents here, and their inability probably to comprehend limerence unless they have taken hard drugs…. and because people posting her are generally in the throes of limerence so have lost perspective on their current or past relationships
My take is that ‘love’ is in common with limerence (1) an altered mental state (2) An intense drive to form a romantic pair-bond
but both of them turned up to 11 as a response to, effectively, rejection.
The rejection drives what is the unique core of limerence (3) A behavioural addiction (4) a set of characteristic symptoms that all limerents share.
Nr. 4 needs to be broken down, as there are elements which are effectively the distress of (1) and (2) not succeeding, which probably warp and shape the addiction of (3) into something painful. I’d be interested to udnerstand to waht extent people have experienced (3) in a non-limerent way.
I have been very upset when I ended or had promising relationships ended for me, but I could make a clear analysis, process the pain and move on. But I never felt addicted.
I haven’t posted in a couple of days and thought I would share my most recent feelings. I apologise it’s a bit of a long one.
He hadn’t messaged me this morning, which I assumed was him was waiting for me to say hello first as he was the last one to say goodnight. For some reason something inside of me just didn’t feel the need to say anything. He hasn’t been showing as online this morning, which is out of character for him, so I was wondering if he was just hiding his status from me. This is the longest we have ever gone without speaking in the morning.
The strange part is that last night was actually really nice and we were just enjoying each others presence. I felt like crap when I woke up (always do) I believe this is a mixture of guilt and confusion towards my real life. Yes of course I was checking to see if he had sent me a message, but I didn’t feel that need to hear from him.
If I was a horrible person, I would probably would have taken this opportunity to go NC now. But when I am completely honest with myself, I have to face the fact that to some extent I am using this person (although not intentionally) and I couldn’t just completely ignore them at the risk of hurting their feelings. I don’t know how they genuinely feel about me and I probably never will, but if there is even a chance that everything they have said is honest then I can’t bring myself to treat them in a way I would hate to be treated myself. So I caved in and said good morning.
Part of me hoped that he wouldn’t respond. I think that it would have been best for both of us. For him to be free of me and I free of him, because IF he IS genuine then I believe he is also in some kind of limerence. I know how that feels, and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
He ended up responding to me, but it does feel like there is more distance between us. Maybe he is picking up on my ever so slight pull away and is protecting himself, or maybe it was only ever just an ego boost to him and he’s starting to get bored. I have noticed that he seems to have a tendency to love bomb later on in the day, so maybe it’s just a pattern we have fallen into. Regardless of what is going on, I hurt, but not as much as I expected to.
I do feel like I am making progress though, just acknowledging these feelings alone.
Cat
Hi Cat,
“For some reason something inside of me just didn’t feel the need to say anything.”
This sounds like great progress, girl! Keep it up.
I have found that, once these sorts of thoughts start, recovery can really snowball. You might be about to climb slowly out of the fog. When this happened to me, I was really careful to notice and pay attention to those thoughts (as you have done). There can be some backsliding too, which is normal, I guess. For me, LO rumination and thoughts were a bit of a ‘go-to’ thing some days, maybe more so on a bad day, or when I was feeling a bit stressed or even a bit bored and using LO thoughts to self-medicate.
I wouldn’t worry too much about how he is feeling, try to be a little bit dispassionate now, if you can because that seems to be where your brain is leading you? When lim-brain tones down, you might be surprised at other explanations that you could come up with that plausibly explain his behaviour (not all of them necessarily relate back to you, maybe :)). This is not a bad thing, actually it is a healthy thing because it shows a bit of balance creeping into your relationship. Ultimately, I think you realise that this is not a relationship you want to pursue in reality, right?
Hope you continue to feel good today!
Hi Bewitched,
Thank you for your response. I do feel like I am making progress overall, but then give it a few hours and I’m back to pining like a lovesick puppy.
I understand that these feelings won’t just disappear overnight and that the only way to heal from it is to feel the pain in all its glory and that means I have to do the hard work.
“Ultimately, I think you realise that this is not a relationship you want to pursue in reality, right?”
I mean ultimately, yes. But probably not for the right reasons. I would love to live in my fantasy, in this happy ever after bubble. If I could choose that I would. But yes, the reality is it would never actually work. We live in different countries, I’m married, I have a young child and most importantly I’m ignoring the fact that it’s an extremely unhealthy attachment to have towards another human being.
Cat
@cat
even the beginning of awareness of the different phases, moods, shifts, inside yourself, is something, it’s a big step, cat. le’s are labyrinth-like, not a straight line at all. if they were easy to solve, they wouldn’t be le’s…and this blog would not exist.
you’re aware of what is going on…that is a huge benefit, even if it feels awful to have your eyes open…just keep going and keep filling us in. You are not alone.
hugs
csc
Cat
“But probably not for the right reasons.”
It’s still a reason that you followed up with determination. When I started to work with LO I did not pursue her romantically for the right reason. But the “wrong” reason still held me at bay to at least not cross that line. Though limerence very much convinced she was the perfect woman for me and that a life with her would be amazing.
Whatever your reason “right” or “wrong” in your mind you still followed it up with determined action to try and end this attachment. That is progress. Any progress is good progress.
My romantic infatuation faded, maybe not for the right reason, with time I got to know her more as a person than just a pretty face, and that is what cooled that kind of infatuation with her. Maybe fate or God handed me a blessing in disguise. How would I have fared if not for the feeling of adoration for who she is as a person instead of eros infatuation? Probably not well.
Hi Cat. Thanks for sharing. As others have said, any progress is good progress.
In my LE, LO and I have not had any exchange for quite some time. This has really helped me move on. I feel my limerent feelings are much lower now. I can feel myself making progress, as I do not really feel the need to reach out to her now, and I can guess, same is the case with her. So, what I trying to say is that having no contact has really helped me. It was painful at first, but got easier with time.
In fact, just the other day, I saw her walking from a distance. We did not cross paths, though we did look towards each other once from a distance. The good outcome for me was that I did not get any low feelings from that episode.
Getting to this stage has taken a long time for me, several years.
I wish you the best.
@snow @bewitched @❄️ @🧙♀️
Putting this down here, didn’t want to hijack anyone else’s situation. You are both very wise, and generous. Thank you for your care. What a beautiful duet you make, different yet braided together….
Duly noted. Yes, feeling sad, unmoored, and fairly scared. Thank you for hearing me, and for extending your hands and thoughts to me. ❤️
Since I do not work with LO and cut off contact completely, this is all very final…a boring, private plateau. No little doses from him, no drama at all. Just silence….doubt….here. Nothing that’s something.
Snow, not harsh. A good reminder. Keep going, do not stop and spiral in the pall of emotions. Keep moving, and do not settle into any emotion. Let it through.
I do spend a lot of time alone, but Snow, I receive your word “solitude”. There is a difference, and I believe I understand the intention of your word. I do think the time draws near for it. Who knows what it will hold? I’m sure it will be interesting…
with deep gratitude, csc
🤖,
If I were you, I’d examine deeply the word “scared”? What are you actually scared? Psychologically, emotionally, mentally, realistically, etc.
You misunderstood my message, I meant that you NEED and should stay with and at your emotions, fear, sadness, etc. long enough until they recede on their one. In the past few days, you’ve run away from them by giving others your insightful, supportive advice, which is for sure appreciated.
However, meantime, you’re not helping yourself by doing necessary grieving work in solitude. If I have fever or covid, how am I supposed to help others with covid and dripping nose? One has to get well first on one’s own! Mere words have limited effects.
Understanding intellectually what’s happening with others and ourselves is one thing, but to emotionally rid of limerence or other mental ailments takes a lot of internal work, w/o professional therapists. There is no way around it, but THROUGH it.
Grey days and thunderstorms are a part of the nature, no only seems to complain about them, then why intolerance of grey and stormy days in mind? Does one need constant sunshine and beach like in the film, “Wall -E”? Do you want to like in that kind of paradise?
Edit:
stare at your surging and ebbing emotions… until they recede on their own, causing no positive or negative effects on you — the principle of meditation and yoga.
No one seems to…
WRT solitude: As Greta Garbo put it:
“I never said, ‘I want to be alone.’ I only said, ‘I want to be left alone.’ There is all the difference.” – https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/greta_garbo_388744
L.E.
That was my actualized motto without being conscious of the line, in any language, the most of my life since 13…. Thank Zeus, classical literature has been my best companion since 10….
I found an excuse not to go my PT today, the thought of being “looked” at almost invasively while lying on a PT table, made me really uncomfortable, almost nauseous…
Damn it, it’s one of only two PT centers in the whole city, which takes my insurance; and the quality of the PT is really good!
@❄️
thank you for clarifying.
i understand a lot better, now!
@csc I am deeply saddened to hear of your plight today.
Thank you for all you have helped me in the past few days, but now is the time to focus on YOU. To stay, as said so eloquently above, in the mindful space that recognises where you are, and accepts it without trying to change it. Once “it” has had its say, it will leave you, and the solitude from LO will feel peaceful.
As we have all discussed before, we are grieving the loss of something that gave us a purpose; that heady mix of chemicals, thoughts and wonder. We indulged in our addiction, and ended up where, with a clearer head, we would’ve have foreseen all along.
CSC, you have I know the courage and the bravery to move through this. Soon the clouds will part and the sun will again shine, on a strong, resilient person made even more so by experiences.
Mostly, as I have been reminded today, wherever we are in our own journey (and you and I are in a similar place), we are united by this wonderful blog and a camaraderie that no one rose understands.
I hope you have a peaceful evening, and that you report back soon
HUGS X
JMMO
🤖 & JM.
May Peace come and stay with you two!
https://youtu.be/mmZJpKXG0rE?si=mVMI8w84JFyqISvd — a Way of Life
After spending some quality solitude,
https://youtu.be/zwzMBSsqr_0?si=EhV9UV_q05Y3zfl- — Time
Then, you’ll feel free from seemingly LE abyss:
https://youtu.be/ghuyMVkITIE?si=xvGbYFiJXdORzetn — Now We Are Free
Thank you for those 😊
Argh. Another backslide. Ran into LO today and got into an argument with him about Elon Musk, of all things. He believes Musk is sincere and is doing good things to root out corruption. I myself am much less trusting and need to see proof that he is not doing diabolical or destructive things. LO said my reasoning was “stupid,” and I don’t think his reasoning is nuanced enough.
Regardless–I would have hoped that his opinions would be a turn-off. I am shocked, actually, that he is so right-wing. Instead, I find myself drawn to him more than ever.
I post on a political board where most members refuse to have anything to do with anyone who is of the opposing party. I don’t feel that way, but I am surprised that I feel more warmly than ever toward LO after our “animated” discussion.
Norma,
Trump, Musk, and far right -wing are moving this country towards a dictatorship 😱 😱 😱! A trillion dollars won’t get me close to anyone who supports them! But I entertained my cousin and her “red-headed” husband (each time they came to visit my mother) who voted for trump and he looked plainly stupid! My cousin loves good literature, always digging new books, so she looks the way smarter and has been always sweet (mother-goose type) since we were little kids. I zipped my mouth in politics when with her alone.
They are doing horrible changes in all fronts, pushing the country and its democratic system maybe decades backwards….In four years, who knows how it’s going to turn out! I wish I have a better place to run to, besides my COO which is even worse! It’s so depressing!
You’re strong to express your stand, but why you are attracted to him more is really beyond my comprehension…. I wish you to get out of this hurtful LE sooner, with such a horrible LO, calling your reasoning “Stupid”🙀 🙀!
To Snow: Thank you for your comments. I have a lot of fear about what is coming, but I don’t know for sure. LO seems to think he does. I told him, “You are a victim of your own confirmation bias.” I insisted that NOBODY knows exactly what is happening or what the fallout will be. I think his reasoning is faulty, and that he is assuming things not in evidence.
Norma,
Sorry to be frank: I have little patience to hear about any trump supporter and their knuckleheads. I care about your well-being as a suffering limerent; if you feel fine in dealing with your “impassioned” LO who has been tormenting you, then go ahead to enjoy whatever you can get out of it. After all, it’s your life.
Good luck and be well! 🍀
I guess you are attracted because he is finally animated about something instead of being grumpy like he seems most of the time…
To Mila: He described himself as “impassioned.” I think he is a black/white thinker who misses a lot of the possibilities. I am not particularly offended, and I am surprised at myself to be saying that. If his mind is not capable of grasping all the negative forces that may be at play here, I really can’t hold that against him. On the other hand, I expected more, intellect-wise.
Mila, Norma,
I’m not against people’s different passions about different things, as long I don’t have to deal with them personally.
But here lies a matter of dealing with one’s intimate emotional life, love, LE, friendship, etc. with enormous time, energy, affection invested, how could/would one’s views of the world, life, and values not matter? What is our T brain supposed to do?
One’s time and energy are limited, life is too short to be wasted with subjectively wrong people (and subjectively wrong matters). Not that I am against ordinary republicans, but all my blind, first-sight glimmer just never landed on any, by chance or something more in their appearance? My xSO became one after divorce, which horrified his own parents with their jaw dropping!
If I was forced to work with LO in some kind of political office, I would not be able to handle it. Thankfully that is not the case and we are mostly sticking to other topics. I know I cannot persuade him, and he cannot persuade me. However, I DO try to point out that Elon Musk’s assertions are not backed up by evidence, and that assertions are not the same as facts.
LO should be smart enough to at least understand that much. Regardless of what topic is being discussed, allegations need to be backed up with solid proof.
CSC,
How are you today?
I cannot help much but want to send you some hugs. Limerence is so painful. Hope you are feeling better today.
As an unexpected shower of tears is gushing out
finally after ages,
the last ember of LE is extinguished….
🐦🔥 is free.
Let It Be So
Lois Roma-Deeley
May the desert lavender, poppy, marigold buds,
studded along the trails of Windgate pass,
open their mouths to a gentle rain
then burst into blossom
just for you.
Let it be a merciful Spring.
When the McDowell mountains sing
ancient songs of promise,
may your heart remain unbroken.
May every street and avenue of this city
lead you to blessings of good health.
And when you stand near the banks
of the Salt River,
with only the humming cicadas
to keep you company and
the Sweet Acacia trees to bear witness,
may this be a singular moment
of peace.
Let it be so, and
if and when
you dare to look up at a moonless night sky,
may a thousand flickering stars
overwhelm you.
May you see in the dazzle of white lights
the faces of everyone you’ve ever loved and lost.
May they guide you to a better life—
let it be so.
*****
Another synchronicity… 10 minutes apart… 😳
🫥 💭 https://youtu.be/xLEQzfqO_l0?si=v5bqQxMHhcepeV65 💭 🫥
💦 💦💦
It’s so quiet, so full here….
Don’t talk or whisper
to wake me up from
the dreamt flow of the recovered tear…
Just blow me a breeze
gently rock the tucked nest
hum a lost tone of the legend, where
the free firebird soared in the boundless sphere….
🐦🔥
22:22 4/2
🪶🕊🛫🔥
🙏✌️ 🌬️ (deity)….
🤞 🕰️ 🤞, 🌈 ☺️ 😊 🎶 🕯️🏮
🫚 🍵 https://youtu.be/47MUf_HSr5o?si=qyFWoFEh-pqZGD8f 🎵 ☕️
👁️🗨️ 👉 🌽🤝 🫂 ☕️ 🍵 🍨 ⏳〰️ 🌞🌞 🌞 🌞 💠 🏰 ❔🧐
👁️㊗️ ….
Oh I’m so glad to read this. 😊👏🏻
🌽 & JM,
Thank you! it took just about 10 months (by the 6th) of a forced, total physical NC, with the help of visible and invisible “hands” here, to have the residual embers extinguished….
Now, it feels like all that I went through in 8 year LE) is fast receding into distance in a movie montage (my mind always works in images even during waking hours, if 🫥 can’t picture things inside, they’d never happen in reality ) —
You alone stand in the center of a huge, barren plain (like a deserted battle ground), under a quiet sky, with some white clouds hanging over the head and not much wind… With each drop of tears surging and pouring out of you, all lingering stuff related to LE began receding towards all directions … you even don’t want them all going at once, but you can’t stop them as if some invisible force is pulling them (the montage)…
Feet nailed on the ground, you watch in wonder, not sure what is happening except tears are gushing out unstoppable (you rarely cry even want to)… you feel pressure releasing inside… and with every drop of tears coming out of your eyes, those LE stuff moves smoothly further away (with the vague 👽 peacefully smiling and standing a bit above ground — he “served” well one of my needs in LE)
Of course, I know which hard-to-come images of my 🫥 suddenly triggered off the rare flood of tears… (Never underestimate power of imagination!) , but it’s too private to tell here…
Keep up your progress and be patient, but not pushing too hard. Let what needs to happen take place organically… I’ll be here cheering you…
Today’s number in calendar is the worst by superstitions of COO — 4️⃣sounds exactly like “death”, now, it’s the only double one in calendar — death 🈷️ death 🌞 !
In many buildings over COO, there is NO 4th, 14th, or 44th floor; in fancy restaurants, no table 4️⃣; for holiday cookings/feast, it cannot be made of 4 courses/dishes, but 6 (homophone of “smooth”), 8 (homophone with prosperity), 12, 16… goes up by 4.
Today happens to be the national memorial holiday for the Dead (based on the Moon calendar, it changes every year by 1-3 days). Mom and I are supposed to pay respect to Dad’s tomb, but I’ve got an early tutoring and it will rain soon.
Just woke up and scanned through within, the effect of my drama two days ago is still here sound and clear — I didn’t sleeping walk into some 💥 battle field in the late Dawn, it happened! No golden tears were collected, but the red, sore eyes were shown to my students — how embarrassing!
Yesterday gliding over the sidewalk from PT center and tutoring to home (about 5 km), I felt I had lost 5 kg or something (for a small bird like me, an extra kg drags down my wings). I tried to figure out how much the LE embers weighed on a LE weight-scale, how much it weighted during the height of LE, if the embers felt like 5 kilos❓
Just now checked on a real scale: I did lose 1 kg even after indulged more Carbs! So those tears weighted 1 kilo, which extinguished the residual ember in one go! What is it made, which weight actually kills?
I checked within again and again in the past 48 hours, no dying-breathing LE ember hiding anywhere — all the related memories are still here and there but carry NO emotional charge, absolutely None! So how did a natural phenomenon carry out such a psychological metamorphosis❓ I Still can’t believe such an unintended yet astronomical change took place in less than two hours, considering some Limers dragged it from 2-5 decades‼️
I know some of you might have wondered about that devilish triggering envision I had, which brought me to the last battle ground and let my 💎 💦 do the work… Well, I still can’t tell you my private affairs but one-word clue is — 4️⃣🛏️…
Well, enough of monologue for one morning! I wish you all have a good day or night, appreciating everything you have got in your life even the bloody LE pains — still 🆒 than 🈚️ and 🈳 ….
I’m still feeling touching ⚡️🧨 😊
Monologue —
My student called in sick earlier, so I quickly decide to take Mom (her request) to Dad’s eternal“home” in the afternoon. It did not rain despite a heavy gray cloud and the Sun even came out a little bit on our way home. Life is rarely as one expects….
I never wanted to go the cemitory with Mom, because I could never feel or show any of my emotions in front of her. It seems that she somehow trained me, for two life times, not only to be afraid of showing my emotions, but also my emotions automatically became non-existent in her presence…
The worse, when she hugged Dad’s headstone mumbling something, I just could not help see her faking, as if she did it to prove something to me or god knows to whom (she asked me to write her funeral speech as Dad’s wife, while I rarely saw/sensed her love for him but mostly dependency on him) .
I tried to convince myself that I was too judgmental due to the awful facts I know about her, but I was never actively thinking about what happened in the past, while surrounded by rows and rows of tombstones… Who would cares about anything occurred in the past while standing among invisible beings?! … One wishes one could fly to somewhere in Galaxy so as not to end up there under a stone among countless ghosts — real shapeless, voiceless ghosts!
There was not one exception that I did not this way since summer of 2018 when I carried Dad’s remains to this permanent spot, up on a hill facing the East, incidentally close to Miles Davis, 20-30 meters away down the hill on a crossroad. Later I learned that Dorothy Parker was somewhere nearby, which gave me a great consolation, since she often spoke for me in her purple proses… it’s not bad at all to permanently lie down near her…
I was also irritated today by a huge digging tractor ducked on one grave over Dad’s, one of its long claws was sunk on Dad’s slot. Horrified that the box underneath might be damaged, I texted the manager right on the spot with all the photos, she assured me that nothing was damaged, and the truck was digging open a another slot right below Dad’s feet for a new burial. Still, my somber mood was terribly ruined by a heavy, yellow metal standing so close!
What continues bothering me was that the slot was purchased for three of us, but I no longer want to lie with them, especially Mom. To be very honest with you, I wanted to do what Meredith Grey did to her mother’s ashes in “Grey’s Anatomy” and even told 👽 about it (he never judged me and served as an idealized surrogate parent). But after all this individuation work, I realize that I might not be able to do it as Dr. Grey, which means I’ll have to buy another slot for myself… I will NOT lie down next to Mom, period!
After the irritated visit (always emotional draining), I took a nap to rest my agitated cells (I can feel them very well). Then incidentally came upon a melody that resembles Dad’s reserved but rich, subtle care/love for me, I can sense and feel IT in the accompanying cello —
https://youtu.be/yuWlwVIiTyU?si=ksAq9Ebn6ReFrCqr
It’s so much like Dad… could not help feel this way after he’s gone and could not help shed tears because I could not sense his care for me enough when he was around. I argued with him and defied him so much; we both wanted to say the last word… Yet deep inside him, it’s boundless, selfless love, wise guidance and substantial support! how much I wish I could have appreciated it more when he was still alive.
Compared to all other men I’ve met in my life, LO#1 was closest (by my senses) to Dad, except his covert, rich emotions in his two big sparkly black eyes and in his purple proses (I can’t remember a single word). As a budding “Juliet”tasting a forbidden fruit, I did not know him well, beside that his reciprocating “limerence” with me ruined his life for another 2 decades after we are forced to part, as he confessed to me in person in last century.
Despite all my complaints about Dad and after hearing so many insightful stories of limerents, men and women, I feel so lucky to have my Dad just as who he was — taught me to keep words/promises once they are made(don’t make any if with 1% doubt); enlightened me at 14 the futility of jealousy (never had any until the last LE); demonstrated generosity by opening our door anytime to people of all social status (from university presidents to illiterate peasants); showed me how to forgive enemies (who put him in a labor camp)… the only thing that still puzzles me is how he put up with Mom’s betrayal repeatedly one after another, he was NOT even a half buddhist!
Now, I feel relieved that the door of the memorial dam is opened finally, and the fond memories of Dad flooded back to me (with the assistant of right melodies). I forgot his 7th passing anniversary last December; now I strongly felt his loving presence next to me, proud of whatever “purposeful living” I’m engaged in….
When monologuing especially during deep, mystical nights, life becomes enlivened and full, even the snaky Death hides its face for the time being…
🐦🔥
23:44, 4/4/2025
I’ve had this experience recently.
For half a dozen years, I found a colleague fun to be around with a similar outlook on life to me and I found her attractive. No excessive emotions there. I just thought “She has one very lucky husband”.
Then on a social night out, she told me they live as separate people under one roof for the sake of their teenage children.
We then didn’t see each other for two weeks over the holiday season and I found myself thinking more and more “What if..?”
By the time we saw each other again, my whole day was occupied with thoughts of how we could start a relationship and I found myself pushing the boundaries to try to get a reaction.
Two months later, I think we’re just friends and there’s no harm in fraternising with people you’re attracted to.
I think I’ve managed to get my limerence down to about 2 now on a scale of 1 to 10.
Hi Martin
A really interesting story. That would’ve been me to a tee. My L brain would’ve found that insight into her married a life as an open door with a massive neon sign above, saying something like “this way!!”. What you don’t say is what apparently decreased that obsession over that short period. My LO is a work colleague and I’m having to go NC. It’s hurting like a bastard!
JMMO
The Earth-Child in the Grass
Katherine Mansfield
In the very early morning
Long before Dawn time
I lay down in the paddock
And listened to the cold song of the grass.
Between my fingers the green blades,
And the green blades pressed against my body.
“Who is she leaning so heavily upon me?”
Sang the grass.
“Why does she weep on my bosom,
Mingling her tears with the tears of my mystic lover?
Foolish little earth child!
It is not yet time.
One day I shall open my bosom
And you shall slip in—but not weeping.
Then in the early morning
Long before Dawn time
Your lover will lie in the paddock.
Between his fingers the green blades
And the green blades pressed against his body . . .
My song shall not sound cold to him
In my deep wave he will find the wave of your hair
In my strong sweet perfume, the perfume of your kisses.
Long and long he will lie there . . .
Laughing—not weeping.”
*******
The Spring’s baby-green whisper is here …. 🌱
To make a prairie (1755)
Emily Dickinson
To make a prairie it takes a clover and one bee,
One clover, and a bee.
And revery.
The revery alone will do,
If bees are few.
****
🍀 🐝 💭
Voices of the Air
Katherine Mansfield
But then there comes that moment rare
When, for no cause that I can find,
The little voices of the air
Sound above all the sea and wind.
The sea and wind do then obey
And sighing, sighing double notes
Of double basses, content to play
A droning chord for the little throats—
The little throats that sing and rise
Up into the light with lovely ease
And a kind of magical, sweet surprise
To hear and know themselves for these—
For these little voices: the bee, the fly,
The leaf that taps, the pod that breaks,
The breeze on the grass-tops bending by,
The shrill quick sound that the insect makes.
My LO just left for a three week business trip. I thought I would miss him, but I find I am relieved. After he gets back, he’s going to be preparing his house for sale, at which point he will move a long distance away. Limerence has been exhausting, and I look forward to being free of it.
Doesn’t limerence have a strong biochemical basis?
Welcome!
Start here https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-neuroscience-of-limerence/
Then, look for the “Search the Site” box on the right side of the page and type in “chemistry.” You’ll get 4 pages of hits.