Limerence upends life.
Whatever your situation when a new LO appears in your world, everything changes. The disruption is probably most severe if the limerent is already in a long-term relationship and the limerence was unexpected, and a common lament for limerents in this situation is:
I don’t know what I want!
To an outsider this can seem self-centred and indecisive – or at least that you are an ineffectual ditherer who needs to pull themselves together and commit. But, as I so often emphasise when thinking about recovery, limerence is happening inside your head, and just between you and me, things are a bit of a mess in there.
To get some clarity about what you want, you’ll need to try and tidy things up a bit.
Limerence scrambles your judgement
The first important point to note is that limerence is an altered mental state. Your neurochemistry is in turbulence compared to the resting state of normal life, and this really does have a profound impact on your ability to process information. Your perception is altered, your motivational drives are skewed (towards one gigantic centre of attraction), your mood is all over the place – all those brainstem drives and urges are topsy turvey.
In contrast, your executive brain – the real you, the superego – is far less affected. What’s disrupted in most people is the dialogue between those earthier, more ancient impulses, and our human capacity for rational thought and impulse control.
Most of the time, our executive lets things run on autopilot, with most of our life defined by habits and heuristics. But when it comes to decision making, the executive essentially holds a committee meeting, listening to all the various subconscious Urges and only intervening to expend energy on high-level cognition when it absolutely has to.
To push this analogy to breaking point: when you are limerent, it is as though the committee of “Me Inc.” has become wildly undisciplined. When individual Urges are not just completely subverting the whole system by acting unilaterally, they are hectoring the chairman about how critical it is to do exactly what they say, now!
The chairman sits in the middle of this bedlam wondering how he or she lost control of what used to be an efficient, well-regulated management board.
The gulf between wanting and craving
One of the main reasons for this breakdown in orderly decision making is the overbearing dominance of limerent craving.
Normally, when we are trying to assess what we want, we do not have to accommodate a crushing, urgent craving in our deliberations. Even very important decisions (what job do I want, where do I want to live, do I want to have children?) are usually reached by a process of weighing multiple factors – some emotional, some practical, some intellectual. In the service of making a good decision, we use our executive judgement to try and balance these factors out to the best of our ability. I’m not saying it’s easy, but it is at least deliberate and considered.
That sort of composure is hard to maintain in the face of a limerence assault. When your brainstem and your body are responding to LO with visceral excitement, the rational factors (I’m married; they are a bad person; they have totally different goals from me; I don’t want to feel like this) offer flimsy resistance.
Even worse, the strength of limerent feeling is often mistaken for the importance of the LO for our own happiness. In reality, these factors are not obviously aligned, and can even be in direct opposition.
Love is happiness, limerence is pleasure
Similar to the gulf between wanting and craving, is the gulf between happiness and pleasure. Happiness is the long-term sense of contentedness with life, that you are at peace in the world, pleased with your choices and the way your life is playing out. There will be sadness, of course, there will be ups and downs of the emotional landscape, but the basic, default, setting is one of harmony.
Pleasure is transient. Pleasure is the thrill of excitement and sensual gratification. It’s wonderful, and life is enriched by it, but pleasure-seeking is not a route to happiness. Hedonism does not have a good track record as a philosophical foundation for living well.
Limerence supplies pleasure, love supplies happiness. So, the best bet for a happy life is to prioritise love over limerence.
So what do you want?
OK. So, that’s the root of the problem laid out – why it’s hard to make good decisions while limerent. How does that help answer the big question?
Well, it depends on where you are starting from. There are three obvious scenarios.
- You were happy before the limerence started
- You were unhappy before the limerence started
- You were drifting through life before the limerence started
An important detail here when making an assessment is to remember principle number one: limerence scrambles your judgement. The question is not “was I happy then, compared to how I feel in the midst of limerent euphoria?”, it’s “was I happy then, in the absence of limerence?”
For those in the first category (which was my situation), the answer is relatively straightforward. If you were happy before, then limerence has come as a disruption to that everyday contentment. You can learn a lot from the experience – that perhaps contentment had become complacency, or that you need to push yourself out of an emotional rut – but fundamentally you should not tear down your old life and start anew just because your brain’s gone cuckoo. What you want is to get your life back on course, which probably means resisting limerence and being more mindful of your blessings and everything you’ve built.
For those in the second, unhappy category, limerence can also teach you something. It’s the shock that makes you confront long-neglected fears that you have been avoiding. Maybe LO has a role in the response, but maybe not. That depends on LO’s situation, your situation and all those other complicating factors that need to be weighed in sound decision making. But, you do need to take action to improve your life, because cruising on unhappily is no way to live.
Finally, for those in the third category, it’s time to find your purpose. Living a reactive life, letting fate carry you passively through events, being pulled and pushed by inscrutable emotional impulses, or other people’s requests and demands, is a recipe for limerence. Living in the moment is all very well, but a life of disconnected moments strung together by chance tends to result in a rough ride.
You know, I start many of my posts with a general topic in mind, not quite sure where things will go until I’ve kind of argued the issues out with myself. But funnily enough, they all seem to lead to back purposeful living.
When you live in a deliberate way, mindful of what you really want your life to be like, and what your larger goals are, the question “what do I really want?” becomes a lot easier to answer.
Excellent topic. I’ve been batting some of these ideas around on the message board with regard to issues like midlife crisis. A lot of the responses I’m getting are along the lines of, “If it feels good, do it!” Or, “These urges must be a manifestation of a person’s True Self and desires so they should follow them.” Purposefulness in Western culture has been thoroughly subverted by hedonism, which means there is little support for those of us trying to keep limerence from hijacking our lives. Happiness is, for a lack of a better way to put it, old fashioned.
Dr. L, I think you hit the nail on the head when you made an important distinction between pleasure and happiness. Our culture has shifted from valuing happiness to valuing pleasure, and even using others as tools for our (temporary, disposable) pleasure has become increasingly socially acceptable. Things like long-lasting, deep human connection have been replaced by “experiences” like euphoric sex. This makes the question of, “What do I really want?” even more confusing. Wanting to be a good person who keeps promises and commitments is also hopelessly old school. Those things don’t bring pleasure.
In the midst of my strongest LE, I desperately wanted to chase my LO, sleep with him, and have an intense fling . . . while my boyfriend waited for me and took me back at the end. I was deeply confused. My relationship ended for reasons other than the LE, but I’m sure glad I didn’t burn it down. The person I was considering leaving has been literally the most stable person in my entire life.
I feel like people think I’m some kind of judge or scold for thinking that those who make huge life decisions under the influence of disrupted brain chemistry are to be pitied. But sometimes it’s a bit like cutting off your own hand under anesthetic; just because you don’t feel it at the time doesn’t mean it won’t hurt later.
@greeneyedmonster- so well said!
DrL- this is a fantastic post! I too loved the distinction between happiness and pleasure, and the description of the executive having lost control of the board meeting. Ha!
I know now, in a way I didn’t know in the thick of it, that I may have gotten great pleasure from my time with LO but that my happiness overall was diminishing. Physically, from pictures at the time, I felt stunning and looked burdened. Now, I can honestly say that I am happier than I can remember being in a long, long time, even as I still periodically crave the pleasure that the LE promised. I feel clear and clean and quiet inside, and that is a direct result of living honestly and gratefully (ie purposefully) instead of fractured, dishonestly and driven by craving. I really appreciate the reminder to guard against stagnation and comfort- to keep purposeful living as the preventative medicine that I need. I never want to have another LE as long as I live- but armed with all I’ve learned here, even if I do feel another glimmer, I think I’ll know what to do.
Thank you for all that you do here DrL- it’s truly a lifesaver!
Yes, I had the same experience. Like the energy of the limerence was spectacular, but it was burning through my inner vitality somehow.
Yes, pictures from that time show a definite worry line right between my eyes! Descriptive of what was happening. Pictures of LO show him hamming it up in every picture and inserting himself in other family’s pictures that I was taking. Look at me, look at me! Distracting… I don’t find doing the right thing old school, and it would’ve crushed me to move forward with any relationship. The biggest lesson I’ve learned from all this executive mayhem is my thoughts are not my own private playground. Thoughts give birth to action which gives birth to problems — at least for me anyway in this situation. I always thought my imagination was a plus, but now I realize it’s like any gift or talent in that it has a good and a bad side to it. I’m still so struggling even after disclosure and NC, and progress is slower than I would like.
I don’t mean to hijack someone else’s post but couldn’t figure out how to make my own comment.
I’m looking for advice.
I’m in a relationship with a house and dog involved.
I’m in a long term relationship 7 years. Am somewhat unhappy but still care for my girlfriend very much . I met another woman we’ve slept together a few times maybe four. and are messaging each other all day every day or but we barely get to see each other, maybe once a month for 6 – 7 months now I feel like I might be in love with her. I constantly think about her we connect mentally emotionally, no spiritually like I never have before. there is something special about her and this feeling I have. We’ve had the most meaningful deep conversations, she’s the most interesting person I’ve ever met. I feel like I care so much for her that I would give up everything for her, my girlfriend, my dog and my house. It feels like to me that she feels that same way about me. The way are around each other when we see eachother She thought that I’d broken it off with my girlfriend (which I did but couldn’t stick to). She is very hurt but keeps righting me telling me how messed up I am for this situation. But Don’t know if I still love girlfriend, and I have a sense of duty to take care of her because I have been taking care of her since the beginning of our relationship.
My girlfriend i get along day to say, we do things for each other, take care of each other. but We fight constantly and I have no purpose. over the years with our happiness has diminished and I never did feel limerence in the beginning. We’ve been going to relationship therapy, I haven’t told either of them about the affair but my girlfriend has been doing a lot of work to better the relationship and I can’t seem to care in the least about all the hard work she does. I care about what Happens to her and want her to feel secure. But I genuinely feel like I would be so happy to find out that she was leaving me for someone else and I’ve felt like that for a couple years at least.
Do I still love my girlfriend and am just in a slump? It feels like I love her but might have fallen out of love with her, is this common?
I’m so confused because I think if I leave. That it probably will work out with the other girl because I know she has a problem with limerence for me, but it might not be a long term thing. Where she lives is actually a very convenient place for me to live. It’s where I’ve always said if my girlfriend and I broke up I’d want to be anyways. And I’m considering moving.
I’ve thought about telling the other girl how I feel.
Any advice would help
Hi Scott. You have no children together so there are no insurmountable barriers to separation as I see it. You say it is your job to look after your SO, but I am sure you realise that dishonestly starting a relationship with LO is the very opposite of that. Your key responsibility in looking after your SO is to ensure her need for a faithful partner that really appreciates her, and wants to be with her instead of someone else, is met. Either by you, or by you freeing her to find someone else that can meet that need.
I suggest you read the material on this site to understand what is behind “we connect mentally emotionally, spiritually like I never have before…there is something special about her and this feeling I have… she’s the most interesting person I’ve ever met…etc”. Consider that limerence always ends so it won’t feel like this with LO forever. Try to see through the limerent high and consider who your LO is based on evidence not your feelings, and what the long term relationship is likely to look like once you are no longer “in love” with her either. Make a rational choice, and act on it decisively to avoid causing any more harm to these women.
I married my LO 16 years ago, but the limerence ended after about a year or so of us being together. The challenges and practicalities of family life plus plenty of marital complacency took over eventually. I love my SO deeply, and am happily married, but I don’t expect to remain “in-love” with him after so long together. I now have a another LO that I yearn for, strongly desire, and consider wonderful, special, interesting, etc. Have not acted on it though.
Wishing you well.
@Jane. I’m glad you’re feeling better. I hear you regarding the internal calm and the clarity that comes when an LE is finally over.
@GreenEyedMonster. I’m very impressed with what you have to say here. It’s given me some great material to think about. Thank you.
“Purposefulness in Western culture has been thoroughly subverted by hedonism, which means there is little support for those of us trying to keep limerence from hijacking our lives. Happiness is, for a lack of a better way to put it, old fashioned.”
GreenEyedMonster,
“Our culture has shifted from valuing happiness to valuing pleasure …”
I think there was another post on here that referenced the middle-aged limerent, and that would describe me. What limerence provided for me is not only the pleasure you referenced, but this exhilarating feeling of … what if … that you lose when you hit middle age. You’re settled in a job. You can have a routine. Limerence gives you this feeling of possibility, of being woken up, of a sense of freedom. It’s extremely seductive.
I can see that. I think when we’re young, we can follow things that bring us pleasure with little to no consequence because no one depends on us, and it’s socially acceptable to make mistakes. We haven’t found our purpose yet so we can’t really subvert our larger goals.
I can also see how a feeling of possibility is very addictive after feeling like it has gone. I felt that way about my job upon hitting a career plateau. I’ve had to weigh a lot of different factors, like my retirement savings, benefits, and seniority in making a decision about that.
Ultimately the problem with limerence is that it ALWAYS runs out. It might mellow into love, but that feeling of being high and having possibilities will always diminish, and then the individual is left with the exact same set of problems.
Green Eyed,
“Ultimately the problem with limerence is that it ALWAYS runs out. It might mellow into love, but that feeling of being high and having possibilities will always diminish, and then the individual is left with the exact same set of problems.”
You’re exactly right. But what do you replace with the limerence? I don’t have the answer. I remember being in my 20s and driving to Niagara Falls with a friend. This was years before cell phones became ubiquitous and GPS. We had a map that literally stopped right at Niagara Falls. I’ll write that again. It STOPPED at Niagara Falls. Meaning: we had no map of the actual falls area, either American side or Canadian, and had no idea where we were going once we got there. We also had no hotel reservation, and it was 2 days before the July 4th holiday weekend, which we did not even realize until we got there. It was wonderful. That’s what being in your 20s feels like. Or what limerence feels like.
I agree about your 20s. I think the answer here is that feelings like limerence, or the possibility of youth, are not the default state in life. It’s unrealistic to expect that there is a “next thing” that will bring that same level of arousal and excitement. Adjusting our nervous systems down to something more steady is really the only answer.
GreenEyed,
“Adjusting our nervous systems down to something more steady is really the only answer.”
I thought that’s what you were going to say. 🙂 Nothing prepares you for the dullness of middle age. You (universal you) become duller and your peers do, too.
Wrapped up in this is also the false promise (which, again seems more common nowadays) that it’s possible to do everything and experience everything, even when the “things” are mutually exclusive.
So, have a full rich life of romantic adventures, and then happily settle down in a monogamous marriage. Or, have an open poly marriage, and everyone involved is totally mature and enlightened and no-one gets jealous or hurt. Or, get divorced and start a new relationship, without any emotional damage to your children from the first marriage.
The more emails I read from midlifers in the limerence trap, the more I come to believe that our adult lives are defined by the sacrifices we make and the trade-offs we choose.
Right on about adulthood and trade offs. Everything you commit to means leaving behind a handful of things that you will never be able to experience. That is just the nature of life.
My brush with midlife limerence involves chasing a LO who was having a midlife crisis. I sense very much that he became tormented (and limerent) about the path not taken. I frequently find myself wondering if it was all it was cracked up to be, because the sacrifices he made to scratch that itch were severe and permanent. Many folks would say that he did what he did because it made him happy, but that doesn’t mesh with my definition of happiness. He did what he did because it was pleasurable and he was curious, but I doubt it was in line with his self-image or values. He will never be able to un-live the last decade of choices if he ends up disappointed — it was a trade off. I check up on him now and then to see how he’s doing, and honestly, it’s hard to tell. His life has settled into the same level of monotony he had before he swept all the pieces off the board.
Green Eyed,
“His life has settled into the same level of monotony he had before he swept all the pieces off the board.”
But sometimes it isn’t about what you end up with but about the journey along the way. I’ve read that some people who finally get their PhDs, after years of study, are very surprised to find themselves depressed. Because it wasn’t so much about achieving the goal as it was about the striving for the goal.
@Marcia – I know exactly what you are talking about and I think it is one of the great paradoxes of life. I was a high achieving kid and spent my youth chasing various forms of achievement, and that outlet it no longer available to me. I have hit the ceiling of the accomplishments I will have in my career and education.
The problem with the need to be in a constant state of pursuit is that we eventually run of out of things to pursue that are worthwhile or desirable. We have to convince ourselves that there is something else worth chasing or we feel a deep sense of emptiness.
It’s one thing to determine that you want to spend your life chasing things in this manner, and you give up permanence as a tradeoff with full understanding of the decision you are making. It’s another thing to become a prisoner to this feeling so that you will chase something, anything, just to have the exhilaration of pursuit.
GreenEyed,
“The problem with the need to be in a constant state of pursuit is that we eventually run of out of things to pursue that are worthwhile or desirable.”
What else is there but the pursuit? I don’t meant that the goal has to be a better job or a promotion. Ideally, it has nothing to do with your job but is what I call a side hustle. Could be anything. Running a marathon if you aren’t a regular exerciser. Growing an organic garden. Taking a class. Acting in a play. Preparing for a trip and learning a new language. These pursuits fuel our inner life and our imagination. Otherwise, our life really does become about … what sauce we want on our chicken nuggets.
@Marcia – I think that some people are able to enjoy that kind of life, where there is no real pursuit. They have a taste for stability and sameness. Not everyone has a craving for pursuit. I know that I do and I can see so many other people in my life who are happy to rest on their laurels and enjoy what they have accomplished. I envy them, in a way. I think that those of us who crave pursuit have the most difficult time with adulthood first, and midlife later, because there is less and less to accomplish.
GreenEyed,
“They have a taste for stability and sameness. ”
True. I have a male relative who is about my age. He has had the same job for a decade. The money is decent but the job is very regimented and redundant, and there’s nowhere to grow with it. He’s been divorced for years and has no interest in dating. Has had the same friends for years. Maybe sees them in person once or twice a month for a couple of hours. Lives in the same town he grew up in. Spends most of his time with is family of origin. And I look at his life and I think: Why don’t you want more? Before COVID, I was on a quest to find more meaningful friendships. People who would really know me. People who I would really know. (HA! Maybe I was looking for the kinds of friendships I had in my 20s. 🙂 ) It’s not easy finding these things later in life. I found lot of friendly acquaintances.
@Marcia. Thank you for another of your wonderful and inimitable one-liners. I’m not quite middle-aged yet, but you always succeed in making me laugh! 🙂
“Otherwise, our life really does become about … what sauce we want on our chicken nuggets.”
Glad you enjoyed that youthful trip to Niagara Falls!
@ Marcia – I totally get what you mean because I’m exactly the same way. I’ve had the good fortune of meeting some great friends later in life and I hope that’s a trend that continues. I travel regularly (aside from COVID) and I’m always up for an adventure, doing things just to stir the pot and see what happens. For a while I considered embracing this as a lifestyle, but there are some flaws I can’t get past, like the fact that I have almost no family to offer stability as a counterpoint, and the fact that many of my adventures have ended up with heartbreak or being taken advantage of.
Which brings me back to the idea of pursuit. It’s one thing to embrace pursuit with the full knowledge that whatever we chase will one day lose its novelty and we’ll be out chasing again. But I think most people who go into “chase mode” in middle age believe that it really is possible to feel limerent for the same person forever, usually the person they’re cheating with. They mistake the debate for being This Person vs That Person, when the real question is Settled Family Life vs Pursuit. People who ask the first person inevitably become disillusioned when it turns out that their LO just can’t get them high anymore.
GreenEyed,
“For a while I considered embracing this as a lifestyle, but there are some flaws I can’t get past, like the fact that I have almost no family to offer stability as a counterpoint, and the fact that many of my adventures have ended up with heartbreak or being taken advantage of.”
I’m sorry you have been taken advantage of. I have no family to offer support, either. Either a family of origin or one of my making. I never wanted kids, and I always prioritized heat and intensity over stability and consistency in romance.
“But I think most people who go into “chase mode” in middle age believe that it really is possible to feel limerent for the same person forever, usually the person they’re cheating with.”
I’m not advocating that anyone blow up his or her life over limerence. There’s certainly no guarantee that, once the person “gets to the other side” with the LO and the limerence wears off, he/she will be any happier than he/she was with his/her SO. In the cold light of day, it even might be a worse match compatibility-wise. But what is the alternative? Staying in the marriage and ruminating over someone else for months or years? I can’t imagine the pain of an SO telling me he was limerent for someone else, but I also can’t imagine not being told and somehow finding out.
Sammy,
“Glad you enjoyed that youthful trip to Niagara Falls!”
And you need to go there, Mr. Sammy. You are young. Lots of youthful trips for you! Maybe with a new love interest in the new year. That is what I hope for you. 🙂
@ Marcia – I’m not advocating that anyone should stay in a miserable marriage. I just think that people need to be honest with themselves about two points. 1) If you want freedom, have freedom. Enjoy the chase and enjoy variety. Just don’t lie to other people about your intentions. Don’t get married again and promise someone to stay “till death” when you really mean when the limerence wears off. 2) No marriage will offer the same high as limerence, and that is **NOT** the fault of your partner. The fact that they can’t keep you high all the time should not be considered their shortcoming.
People can do what they want to do, but they should be honest and mindful about it, and accept the consequences of their decisions as their own.
GreenEyed,
“Don’t get married again and promise someone to stay “till death” when you really mean when the limerence wears off.”
I agree, but I think there are people who are the long-term, monogamous types who get bitten by the limerence bug and it’s a one-off. They’ve never experienced it before, and it upends their life. That is completely different from someone who’s knows they aren’t cut out for long term and gets married anyway. But sometimes people’s priorities change. Maybe a lifelong limerent wants something stable at some point. They would need to understand they are susceptible to limerence and if they even feel a tingle of it, to have enough self-awareness to walk away.
I so agree with what you are saying GEM.
“We have to convince ourselves that there is something else worth chasing or we feel a deep sense of emptiness.”
The trick is to learn how to fill those voids from within, rather than being utterly dependent on external events. There are many practices that anyone can learn to become content with the moment just as it is right now. Happiness can be hugging your child and enjoying the smell of their hair, sitting in the sun and enjoying the warmth on your skin and the sound of the breeze in the trees or just feeling grateful for being safe and secure. When you expect happiness to happen to you, you overlook the happiness that you can find right now, if you make the effort to look for it. This may seem dull when your mind is overstimulated by narcotic limerent addiction, but when this fades, if you try, happiness is there to be found by anyone – but only if you learn how.
@ Allie – Yes, finding beauty in small things and enjoying a slower pace of life is so important. What we condition ourselves to expect has a big impact on our happiness. The pace of life raising several children in our modern world leaves us in a hyper-aroused state all the time, and becoming an empty nester is an abrupt transition to a lot of empty, quiet time. Essentially you can choose to embrace that time to slow down and enjoy small wonders, or you can try to rebuild the frantic pace of your youth. As a kid I always struggled with the transition from school to summer for this exact reason.
“The more emails I read from midlifers in the limerence trap, the more I come to believe that our adult lives are defined by the sacrifices we make and the trade-offs we choose.”
I think you got the verb tenses wrong. I think it reads more like “… our adult lives are defined by the sacrifices we made and the trade-offs we chose.”
The sacrifices and trade-offs don’t define you. You make those sacrifices and trade-offs because of who you are, some of which may have been made a long time ago. People aren’t who they are because of the relationships they have, people have the relationships they have because of who they are.
What I’m living now is the cumulative effect of decisions and choices I made and other people made that affected me (e.g., my father, LO #2.) I can think of several of them that could have greatly altered the arc of my life.
“What I’m living now is cumulative effect of decisions and choices I made and other people made that affected me”
I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s easy to say live this way make these sacrifices, but speaking as a middle aged limerent myself I am defined by the way I was raised and by the choices I have made. My limerent behavior is embedded in me. I am wired that way probably because of nature and nurture. It’s not easy to undo, and I too can think of several decisions and choices that could have greatly altered the arc of my life. That said I am trying to move forward.
I like the Buddhist ethos on happiness… i.e. happiness arises from accepting the current moment just as it is e.g. by recognising and appreciating what you already have; Suffering arises from craving something else.
I truly feel for people in the midst of Limerence, Rational thinking goes out the window.
At the height of mine I was in a marriage with a lovely woman, beautiful child, solid family network around me, good friends, good job and financially secure. Yet I strongly gave consideration to throwing it all away to pursue someone who was unclear how she felt for me and actually unproven as anything special. I had a fantasy perception of her in my mind and I seriously thought she might just be everything I fantasised about and worth pursuing.
Who thinks I should have done it?
what are the Chances of her being flawless and everything I fantasised about ?
What are the chances no one would be hurt and affected as a result of this ?
(Que: I’m waiting for the “you’d be an idiot to”)
I think there are some people who will tell you it might have been worth it for what they call the “experience” — essentially, the emotions you would feel as a result, the sense of being alive. I would say that emotions are a fickle bunch and that euphoria and devastation are really just two faces of the same beast. Risk makes us feel alive but it is just that — risky. If you win a million dollars in a casino, do you walk out with your winnings and enjoy it, or do you go back in and bet and hope you win even more? I’d say the chance of you ending up happier than you already were, based on what you say, were slim.
As I mentioned above, I watched my LO do exactly what you describe. He’s now living out the other side of your experience, a marriage to the woman he pursued. Whatever he feels about his decision, by this point there’s a 0% chance that this situation is spitting out the same level of emotional high that it was to start with. Then it comes down to the practical aspects, in other words, how true to his real priorities he was. That I don’t know, but it’s something you can probably ascertain about yourself.
Would you want to be in a relationship where your love would be okay with you not trying to work it out with the mother of your child? The love of your youth? It would be hard to trust in that situation and the statistics are abysmal when a new relationship starts on the ashes of another. Choose to love.
What do you want from me?
What do I want?
These are questions my LO and I struggled to answer over the years. I could never articulate what I wanted in the heat of the moment. He said he wanted friendship. But I didn’t see a friendship with excruciating sexual tension ultimately resulting in any happiness or pleasure —just a frustration and pain cupcake, with dopamine sprinkles on top (looks enticing, immediate regret after the first bite, totally not worth the calories).
I ultimately decided to mame the “friendship,” but it still limps along on life support (we are co-workers that cannot avoid each other).
I never told him this. What I wanted was to feel wanted. I wanted passion. I wanted an affair – a little slice of pleasure with a side of temporary happiness to augment my otherwise “fine” existence. To me, it was worth the calculated risk I think he knew what I wanted, but was unable to give it to me, for myriad reasons. I wasn’t worth the risk, to him. I understood without him saying a word. That’s life.
We all seek happiness and try to avoid pain. Although happiness is the goal, it tends to be fleeting, no matter what. But I think this is actually normal. Happiness is supposed to be cyclical, not a constant. Otherwise, we’d have no motivation to seek it out and nurture it.
I also firmly believe that you don’t experience limerence if you are truly happy in your existing relationship. You may be content or ‘fine”, but that’s not the same thing.
Thanks for this post Eros. Resonates very strongly for me and useful to hear the experience of someone further along in their LE than I am.
I am limerent for my boss. I increasingly suspect he feels similarly to me although we have never talked. I acknowledge this could be my limerent brain lying to me but I don’t think so. I suspect we would clumsily attempt to discuss & disclose if we were ever alone together. The “what do I want / what would he want” question is one that really haunts me. Would “just” friendship fulfil me/us or just frustrate? Could I really have an affair? Because deep down, I know that is what I really want from him.
Absolutely love your cupcake description btw.
Allie, given your work situation, don’t do it unless you are willing to walk away from your job. Are you in a field where that’s a possibility?
Yes, that would not be an issue as we work in a large company – I can always get myself moved to a different role, project and department. Very happy in my current role & project though so I would be reluctant. My LO is a good man and would support me in moving on if that is what I needed.
Eros,
“I wasn’t worth the risk, to him. I understood without him saying a word. That’s life.”
That’s exactly how my LE was, but my LO and I did make out once and, later, I asked him to do it again and he said no. So my interest had been verbalized and shown. (I’m a big believer in someone having to say or do something bold eventually.) And after that he continued to heavily flirt with me, lean all over me, try to touch me, leave me little notes. But that was all he would ever going to be able to do do. Was I ready for an affair? Yes. (He was married. I wasn’t.) The hardest part to accept was that he had some interest — but not enough. Not enough to really do anything about it.
I feel you both. I hope I can be of help. My situation has been going on for four very long years, so I’m on the tail end. I think it may have started out as a limerent-limerent bond, but he fell out of limerence before me. Tennov said this is normal (the first to be limerent often falls out first). He pursued me initially, so that makes sense.
This is embarrassing to admit, but we actually had sex several times on business trips. After the last time, he told me we could never do it again. He wanted to remain friends and said we could still cuddle. . . Uh. Sigh. It was absolutely soul-crushing, but I understood. I didn’t accept his terms, though. I told him the friendship had to end because I still had feelings and remaining friends would just cause low-level pain. Like many of you have said, it would have been easier if he told me he didn’t feel it anymore. But he wouldn’t say that. Instead, he gave me some bullshit line, and then lied about his so-called integrity (I don’t think for a second this was his first time cheating).
I wish I could say that the sex was fantastic, but it never was. He wasn’t in to it (or me) or had anxiety, or, I don’t know. I almost felt like he was giving me pity sex. Like I was his Mom and I had asked him to clean his room. That’s the absolute worst feeling in the world. It’s possible once the limerence ended for him, the attraction turned off like a switch. But, like most guys, they will NEVER be honest about the lack of attraction. Or maybe he was never really all that attracted to me, ever, but just wanted to use me and didn’t want to hurt my feelings (likely). Actions speak louder than words.
Now, before you think I’m a terrible person, this is the first time this has ever happened to me in my life. I’ve never felt this way before about anyone. It was love at first sight, which prior to this, I thought was total BS. But folks, I’m here to tell you that it’s real, but very rare.
I don’t have all the answers, but I have read (and heard from friends) that affairs can bring happiness to your life as long as you have the right mindset. But both parties need to be on the same page. Communication has to be great. You need to have awareness going in that the feelings will fade over time, that it’s nothing personal. That you are together for a season, that there will be the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And you need honesty. Unfortunately, we never had any of this. Although we spoke often and could talk about anything and everything else in life, we never really negotiated or communicated about “us” until the bitter end. It was almost like the elephant in the room, and it still feels unresolved.
Actually, now that I think about it – that’s what I wanted from him most of all: honesty. But that’s something he was never willing to give me.
Eros,
“I wish I could say that the sex was fantastic, but it never was.”
Hmmm. The make-out session I had with my LO was one of the hottest moments of my life. Which probably made it worse, because it fueled the fantasy. I had daydreams about what I was going to do to him. 🙂
“It’s possible once the limerence ended for him, the attraction turned off like a switch.
That happened with another of my LOs who became a boyfriend. One day the limerence was over and my interest in him plummeted, particularly my sexual interest.
“Now, before you think I’m a terrible person …”
I don’t think you’re a terrible person, but I have lost interest in what I call endless impotent flirtation, which my LO wanted to do. What I mean is … he was never going to do anything definitive. Either have an affair with me or leave me alone and plug back in to what he had at home. He picked option 3, which I now see him as wimpy. But that could be my bitterness talking. 🙂 Do you still work together? I I left the job and will never see him again, which is probably for the best. Because if I hadn’t, part of me would still be looking for him in the office, waiting to catch a glimpse of his fantastic hair. 🙂
Marcia, yep. . . .it hurts knowing that they’ve decided you’re not worth it. I’m of the mindset of, well, it’s not like I can undo what I’ve done already. . . . so is doing it again really going to make it worse? No. They just aren’t feeling it. Life.
Marcia, I think we waited too long to “do it.” It was after he fell out of [whatever], I think, and I’m pretty sure I forced the issue (hysterical bonding, perhaps?). But when this first started four years ago, my God, one innocent touch from him was like electricity. Just thinking about it now makes me shiver. But one of the biggest aphrodisiacs for women is feeling wanted, right? So, after the so-so sex over this past year prior to lockdown, and the ultimate rejection from him, I’m losing interest too. I just need to give it time. But one thing I know for sure is that trying to take a friendship won’t help me get there.
And I agree with you on the wimp comment. I kept waiting for him to make a bold sexual move, and he never did (even after mutual crush disclosure), continuous flirting, touching, etc. I should have known better.
And, yeah, we still work together. It’s been easier because of the virus, since I don’t have to see him or talk to him much since we’re both working from home. Who knows, maybe it can be resurrected after starvation?
I just notice I spelled maim wrong! Oops.
Eros, Marcia, Allie – are any of you still on the blog? If you see this message I’d love an update from any of you, especially Eros: did you get over your LO? was it ever resurrected? This reply is a shot in the dark after 2+ years but the similarities with my situation are so uncanny I’d love to learn from your experience.
Well, I finally did it. I blocked my LO on my phone and unfriended or blocked on social media.I haven’t reached out to her in over a year but her calls/texts etc though infrequent are keeping me from fully healing. I’ve been in the ‘we can be low contact‘ camp for ages. I can’t. It hurts but I know it’s the right decision. I was in the 2/3 category before I met her. Had some probs with SO, and was kind of drifting. Since I met her, I’ve taken in a new job that fulfills my passion, reached out to new friends that are more aligned with what I want and am being more honest with my so about what I need. Part of my le included realizing that I wanted to be more out about my bisexuality and now I am. Only to a small circle but it’s been very healing. I also got sober which is huge. I’ve never been more healthy and I know my LO was the catalyst but it’s time to sever ties completely. Wish this felt easier! Appreciate all the great things I’ve learned here.
Eros,
“My God, one innocent touch from him was like electricity. Just thinking about it now makes me shiver. ”
I know the feeling!
“But one of the biggest aphrodisiacs for women is feeling wanted, right?”
Yes, but being really wanted, to the point of him losing all reason and control. That’s what I wanted from my LO, anyway. Women don’t want to be carefully considered. Blech.
“And I agree with you on the wimp comment. I kept waiting for him to make a bold sexual move …”
I was waiting for that, too, although he maneuvered to get us alone in a dark room, so it was obvious something was going to happen. But I had to make the bold move. I had never before made the first physical move. Since him, I’ve done it a few times. I guess that’s the one legacy he left me. I kind of dig making the first move now. Most men aren’t expecting it. And if they don’t like it, well, then I know we aren’t sexually compatible. 🙂
“Who knows, maybe it can be resurrected after starvation?”
You never know. 🙂
I just always question the attraction if a guy doesn’t make the first move. It always means something, and it’s never good. Men are hunters, women are prey. That’s the natural state and driven by hormones. If a guy knows you’re receptive, and isn’t going crazy to be with you and get his, he’s just not hungry enough to go for the kill. That kind of lukewarm attraction is just a recipe for heartbreak. Any dude who does this to a woman is a coward and weak. If you’re not going to follow through (or you can’t) don’t start something with someone. It’s cruel.
Eros,
I agree with you to an extent, but this guy was married, so that might have been the reason for some of the hesitancy. And once he said no, I never asked again. I’m not going to keep asking. I also made the first move on the guy after my LO, but once we’d hooked up the first time, I did absolutely nothing and waited for him to contact me and show back up again. From that point on, he initiated most of the contact and arranging to meet up. I’m not going to fuel the whole thing. (I feel the same way about friendships.) But it’s just not in my nature to sit back and wait for someone to pick me. I hate putting myself in that position.
Eros,
To add to that, I have been a little put off by the guys who’ve come after me of late (before COVID, of course). I’m trying to remember. 🙂 As in … I give them my number and they text incessantly. Within the first week. They act a like a boyfriend after one date. They hand over the whole kit and caboodle immediately. There’s never a moment for me to wonder what they are going to do.
Remark made by a friend (edited)
Thoughts on Dr. Ramani’s channel on Youtube – she’s a psychologist specializing in NPD and domestic violence and says the concept of soulmates is unhealthy and perfectly describes narcissistic relationships.
I’ve always thought LO #2 understood me on a level no other person ever has or possibly ever will. One therapist I worked with knew LO #2 when we were dating and tagged her with NPD.
I gave the therapist a copy of my history of the relationship with LO #2 and a copy of Shari Schreiber’s “HAVEN’T WE MET BEFORE? – The Borderline/Narcissist Couple” and said we’d be discussing those at the next session.
I asked her if Schreiber’s article described the relationship. The therapist said while it wasn’t a precise fit, we were doing a pretty good imitation of one. The therapist said that while I wasn’t a Narcissist, I had some very strong narcissistic defenses (e.g., extremely self-reliant, and “this is who I am, take it or leave it”). We fed off each other.
I asked the therapist why she thought I wasn’t a Narcissist.
“Because you have a conscience and you knew when to quit.”
On a side note, after reading the history of the relationship, the therapist that knew LO #2 said it was an abusive relationship. I told her I knew I can be difficult but I never realized I was abusive.
She said, “I wasn’t talking about you.”
I told her that I didn’t see it that way. The therapist said that given my background that wasn’t surprising and compared to what I’d witnessed as a child, LO #2 was a saint. But, it was still an abusive relationship and I probably never saw LO #2 at her worst.
That’s fascinating Scharny.
In an abusive relationship without realizing it. And also the learned NPD traits (defenses?). This is giving me pause….
In the “You Can’t Make This Stuff Up” Dept:
I was married to another woman within a year after LO #2 went beyond redemption. LO #2 got engaged less than I year after I got married and married a year after that. There’s some evidence she might have stolen her one-time roommate’s BF (entirely possible based on past performance) but that’s circumstantial. They moved back to Seattle and he went to work for the guy (a professional contact, later a convicted felon) who introduced me to LO #2. When I’d have contact with him and another professional contact we shared, I get periodic updates on her.
The guy who introduced us said they were getting a divorce after less than 3 years. He said her STBX was shell-shocked and didn’t know what hit him. The STBX said it was like a switch flipped in her. I could believe it.
LO #2 told me to my face that she couldn’t control me (“control” came up twice in memorable conversations) and said that her greatest fear was to grow old and die alone (LO #2 said she didn’t want to end up like one of her aunts) which makes me wonder about her Ex and, later, how she could last a a decade with the guy she ended up marrying a few years ago (If FB can be believed, he’s my clone.)
Did she change for the better? Did she settle to help ensure she didn’t grow old an die alone? Or, did she find an acceptable guy she could control?
Not my problem but it’s kind of fun to speculate on.
When folks with NPD find someone they can control they hold on to them for dear life and even though they treat them horribly, they are so skilled at manipulation the victim is scared to leave and feels so honored to be chosen that they semi-willingly stay in the trap…often for life.
Aren’t you glad you aren’t in her miserable cage?
Jaideux,
When I reconstructed the dynamics of that relationship and learned about PDs and Attachment Theory, the combination of circumstances that supported that relationship are almost too out there to be believed. But, it happened. The therapist asked if I was aware of what was going on, why did I hang around so long? Short answer, it was my first adult relationship and I had nothing to compare it to. My parents were the poster children for dysfunctional marriages. Collectively, they went 0-5.
When LO #2 was on, she was great. She was always charming company when we went out and my family my superior officers’ wives positively loved her. My grandmother blamed me for letting her get away and that I “must have done something terrible” for her to decline my marriage proposal and move across the country. My grandmother referred to my wife as “the little blonde gold digger.”
In my late 20s, an attractive, intelligent, charming, self-sufficient avoidant willing to trade sex for friendship wasn’t a cause for concern. She was a Gift from Heaven. It never occurred to me that she could be more screwed up than I was.
The therapist said that LO #2 declining my marriage proposal was probably the nicest thing she ever did for me although she didn’t do it to be nice.
Asking her to marry me was the biggest mistake I ever made that I didn’t have to pay for. In the 4 years we were together, I easily dropped $20K-$30K on her. The jewelry alone was over $10K. Let’s assume I was getting laid 1/week for 3 years. We’ll round to 150 total in those 3 years to make the math easier. At $30K, it was $200 a lay. I don’t know what hooker rates were in the 80s but I’m sure I could a really good time for that amount of cash.
The EA with LO #4 was probably the second biggest mistake I made that I didn’t have to pay for.
Lee if the limerents of this world would realize that the LO is not a soulmate and there is NPD at play, and to get sucked into the soulmate myth is just plain old unhealthy, we would be in a prime position to run for the hills early on and save our sanity.
Maybe a good reminder for next time…
Love is happiness.
Limerence is pleasure.
That is literally the most profound quote I’ve read during my 2.5 LE.
It’s right on the money!
Thank you.
Hi all,
My apologies in advance for posting such a long-winded and incoherent message.
I am not sure where to start my limerence story. I am 40+ year-old closeted gay, living a happy and content life. I don’t have any partners and I have been living single. One fine morning in April or May this year, I stepped out of my flat to get a coffee from a near-by café, and on my way to the café, I saw a gorgeous-looking young man, who appeared to be in his early 20s, go past me. I thought to myself how charming that guy was(I refer to him as Mr.Charming in this post). Then I returned home with my coffee, joined work calls on laptop, and I completely forgot about the guy. So, there was hardly any recollection of that guy from that point onwards. After about two weeks, I again went to get my morning coffee from the same café, and I happened to see the same Mr. Charming and this time from up close. I found him even more handsome and charming than the first time. Like the first time, I returned home, enjoyed my coffee and got busy with remote calls while working from home. I did not think about that guy at all for next few weeks. I had absolutely no idea who he was, where he worked, where he lived, of what heritage he was etc.
In June, I went overseas for 3 weeks; and upon my return, I was busy looking for a new job. Around mid-August, I had two job offers – one with company A and another one with company B. I was all in on joining the company B, but there was a last minute change of heart. And, I ended up joining company A because that office location is just across the road for me. On my first day at work, there was a series of introductory meetings. I was attending one such meeting and, for some reason, just peeped out from the glass wall in the meeting room and I saw a glimpse of Mr. Charming walking past the meeting room. My initial reflex was that it was a figment of my imagination. Maybe I was under some illusion and, surely, that could not be Mr. Charming. I did not see the guy for next few days. So far so good. After a week or so, I happened to see the guy from about 8-10 metres and this time there was no doubt, it was Mr.Charming.
I was staggered by this coincidence that the guy I saw on the street was going to be my colleague and sat on the same level as I was. Not sure if it was some sort of premonition or clairvoyance, I wanted to avoid bumping into Mr.Charming just in case I get too fascinated by him. At that point, I hardly knew a word such as “limerence” existed in the dictionary. Unwittingly, I went too hard and too soon. At all costs, I wanted to avoid any potential repeat of obsession that I had experienced with a couple of other guys more than 10 years ago. So, I started avoiding any contact or chance encounter with this person. Up to this point, I was in total control of myself. After a week or so, I started experiencing early symptoms of Limerence. As days rolled on, I continued to avoid this guy, but it was getting increasingly difficult for me to stop thinking about him. To add to my woes, I happened to bump into this guy on a Sunday while I was out for shopping. On one other occasion, when I was returning home from a daylong visit to a different site, out of reflex, I looked at the entrance of our office (because the office was enroute to my home), guess what? I saw Mr.Charming out of the office. With each sighting of him, my limerence level kept rising. After a week or so, this guy was away from work for a few days and hence there was no distraction for me. However, a part of me was missing his absence – so much so that upon his return to work after a week, as soon as I saw him, my heart throbbed so fast as if I had a heavy dose of caffeine. That was the first time I experienced how strong the phenomenon of limerence I was sucked into.
That was the first time I realised how deeply I was into the state of limerence. With each passing day, my obsession kept growing and now my sleep was getting affected. I started waking up at 3 am or 4 am and found difficult to go back to sleep. Through out this time, I remained avoiding my LO, and I did not have a single direct encounter wherein we faced each other. Around this time in early October, I sensed that my LO observed I was avoiding him as there were two awkward moments when I turned my eyes away from him — to the point of being construed as a rude prick. In mid-October, to my utter consternation, the mother of all coincidences occurred. The LO’s job role was changed and as part of his new role, he had to move his work location. Incredulously, his new desk was just next to mine and our desks were such that we face each other while working. This was the final straw that broke camel’s back. While I could avoid eye contact and chance meetings while he was sitting a few desks aways, from mid-October onwards that was untenable and I had no where to hide. So, I started greeting him “good morning” and “good bye” and he reciprocated and vice-versa. In the last two months since he moved his desk, he has been looking at me at times as if to suggest why I don’t go beyond greetings. Whole of this period, I never had any romantic or sexual fantasies involving my LO. But what is undeniable is that I am profoundly in limerence with him and I am still in awe of his gorgeous looks. And I also have a strong belief that he is straight and has a girl friend. What is more, I gathered that Mr.Charming has the same heritage (racial origin) as that of mine.
With this background, I don’t know what to do. My limerence and fascination with this guy is untenable – not just in terms of realism, but from moralistic angle as well. On any criterion — age, sexual orientation, physical appearance — there was hardly any match between us. So, having any relationship with this guy was never on my mind. So that baffles me even more why I continue to suffer from this malignant influence of limerence. I am like a dog that chases a car. So, I don’t know if that guy does start speaking to me, what I am going to do.
For the first few weeks after this guy relocated to my opposite desk, my limerence seemed to have faded — at least, that is what I thought. But I was patently wrong: my sleep patterns have changed in last two months or so. I have been waking up too early and finding it difficult to return to sleep again. With no romantic urge or sexual gratification of any sort, I just don’t see what is the point of my limerence?
In a way, I brought this upon myself. I always had the hubris that emotionally I was so balanced that nothing could faze me as I have always been good at moving on from unpleasant or painful episodes due to my varied interests in sports, music, literature, politics etc. The events in the last three months have shone a light on how vulnerable (emotionally) I had always been, and thoughts on a complete stranger could render me this helpless. I always thought relationships were never my thing and I still firmly believe that I have no interest in pursuing a relationship — even with Mr. Charming. That is why all this suffering feels completely pointless.