Another month, another visit to the LwL virtual coffeehouse.
This week there’s an unexpected topic for conversation. I had an email from a reader who is also a keen tango dancer, and fan of Yelizaveta Nersesova.
She suggested that it would be interesting to explore the connection between tango and limerence, and whether there is any risk that the dancer’s “falling in love for three minutes” phenomenon could linger, and develop into limerence.
It’s a good idea, but I have almost zero experience of dancing. So, no personal insights from me.
However, looked at from a neuroscience perspective, all the elements for provoking the limerent glimmer are there.
There’s obviously arousal—both physiological and erotic.
Second, it’s rewarding. The pleasure of physical exhilaration, the emotional power of the music, and the thrill of losing yourself in the romantically charged moment. All heady stuff.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, the intimate bonding of physical touch, synchronised movement, and sensual closeness. Lost in their eyes, their scent, their passion. Bodies in harmony.
Put all of those together and it’s not hard to see how the other person can become a supernormal stimulus.
So, this is a shout out for anyone in the LwL community who tangoes.
How does the experience relate?
Did you ever become limerent for a tango partner?
Does the glimmer of limerence feel the same as the thrill of connection with a compatible dance partner?
Let us know!
Former Argentine tango enthusiast here. I used to attend classes, practicas, and milongas several times a week. A few points: 1. Only performers or long-time partners look into each other’s eyes. As you are learning or less familiar with your partner, your eyes are on your partner’s upper chest. 2. Tango is first about communication without words. The leader needs to communicate to the follower what he wants the follower to do. It can be subtle and you need to pay attention to pressure from the leader’s upper body. 3. Tango is technical. Until they are professional or semipro, dancers at lessons are preoccupied with learning to lead or follow steps and combinations correctly. In more social settings, it is still about communication. Can you feel my lead? Am I reading you right? 4. Unless there is repeated contact with the same dance partner, including conversation, I think it is unlikely to turn into limerence. There were partners I enjoyed dancing with at multiple venues, and I went out on dates with a few men I met at tango classes, but I was never limerent for any of them.
Thanks, Gotan. All really good points. I hadn’t really considered that getting “fully transported”, as it were, would only come after technical proficiency had reached a certain level, but that does make sense.
Nice I see
I also am a former dancer and Tango enthusiast.
The dance is demanding of your attention and attraction to a partner would be at the bottom of the list. You have to be alert and putting all your efforts into following or leading correctly.
One of the first things I was taught is that you DO NOT look into your partner’s eyes, but rather over his right shoulder.
I took lessons for several years, and it wasn’t anywhere nearly as erotic as one might imagine.
Ha, yeah, to an outsider it seems wildy erotic.
I guess professional dancers are really good at creating that impression in the performance, but a lot of decidedly *unsensual* practice is needed to get to that point.
To Tom:
The erotic quality is part of the performance, it isn’t erotic to the dancers themselves.
If you also focus on sensations and spirit aroused by Tango music, not just technical movements in details, you DO feel erotic even as a clumsy beginner.
It’s true actually with any physical dance. If dancers can’t FEEL their “musical/poetic” steps, then audience can’t feel its passion let alone erotic aura…
Looking into a dance partner’s eyes is just “risky” even during practices — all sorts of sessions are powerfully pushed by the internal flowing/exhilarating Qi/vitality.
To Miss Snow:
Of course a person is free to do what they want when dancing socially, but if you’re taking lessons, the instructor will continually remind you to keep your head turned to your left.
I had that drummed into me until I got it.
Miss Norma,
While learning anything new, I learn rules well; but later while applying them, I’d always break/alter them somehow intentionally or naturally, thus appearing as an “outlier”.
When I teach my students rules, I also let them know all sorts of shortcuts to detour the rules just a little bit, so as to encourage their “creativity” within the rules.
To Miss Snow:
It’s good that you have some flexibility in your field. Dance maybe doesn’t have as much of that, at least between instructor and student.
You’re always free to do what you want in a dance, but if you’re having a lesson, you’re going to have constant reminders from your instructor. Dancing has an awful lot of rules. Head here. Hands there. And stand up straight!
It sounds like you learned American or international tango (ballroom) rather than Argentine tango. There are several variants. Argentine tango is inwardly focused with a closer connection at chest level, while ballroom tango is like waltz and foxtrot with a more dramatic offset between the dancers’ heads. Argentine tango has a more erotic reputation. And it can be quite sensual. But being “fully transported” feels like “we really communicate well” or “I feel so light on my feet with you.” Not “l want to spend my life with this person.”
The TV show “Fraiser” would have you think otherwise but it is only a TV show and Daphne and Niles have a romantic arc.
Clip of the Blog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPyC2S3xp34 = “Fraiser” (S5E13)
As an outside observer who’s never actually danced a tango (or any other kind of ballroom dancing), I don’t know how one could not have their hormones carbonated by dancing a tango.
Is Gotan an anagram for Tango?
Look up Gotan Project. La Revancha de Tango was a great album and Epoca was the hottest tango for years. It is much easier to dance than Por Una Cabeza (Gardel). Tango is sensual, but there is a difference between the dancer and the dance. And between the act and the partner, more generally speaking.
The tango scene in The Scent of a Woman is mostly Argentine tango, but he throws in some moves that come from hustle and Latin dance. There really aren’t any dips in Argentine tango and he never leads her into a cross… but this is closer to a real tango experience with a leader who is a bit of a showman. I have danced with many such men, and I enjoyed it in the moment, but I never fell for the men. What is wonderful about dance is that you can enjoy it with many partners in one evening. That is kind of the point, unless you are training for a wedding dance or competition.
L.E.
I actually like slow Tango, when you can wear jeans to FEEL in a shabby apartment, and perhaps even fall in crush/love/limerence!
After watching so many pieces, I just can’t forget this unpretentious one (not highly skilled) for whatever reasons 🤔 …
https://youtu.be/P-teLaobGlA?si=JoGD1s0ZospLLIq1 —Querer| Francesca
I think this is a case of LE out of Tango — who can blame him⁉️
https://youtu.be/ZRtTBKSNaMc?si=nbWjA3z43vRH_9QZ
I love Francesca Gagnon’s smoky, sensuous, and longing voice!
Since we have a new Coffeehouse, I wanted to bring the discussion of “exposure therapy” over here. I have been thinking about it quite a lot.
It was Marcia who suggested that this is just an excuse to see LO, and that’s probably true to an extent. Although it’s also true that exposure to LO really opens my eyes as to what an unpleasant person he can be.
He invited me to Starbucks yesterday so that I could tell him about the surprise visit from my estranged daughter, as well as my breast-cancer scare that turned out happily to be benign.
We were there for two hours, and I couldn’t get a word in edgewise. Neither topic was brought up. Instead, he droned on about his client’s custom Louis Vuitton shelving that he’s having built for her closet (?), with hand-painted flowers and birds. I didn’t know such a thing existed. The cost of this would probably feed a small country. I studied the pictures and wondered why on earth anyone needs that.
Obviously LO and I live in completely different worlds. So in that respect, the exposure DOES help. After a certain amount of time, I feel stifled and long to get away. I am a Dollar Store girl at heart, and all that excess makes me uncomfortable.
LO talked about re-listing his house and changing real estate agents. This topic occupies a great deal of his time and his thoughts. He knows I have a crush on him, but is oblivious to how him moving away makes me feel. I haven’t forgotten last year how he triumphantly announced that he had bought a house 3000 miles away and would be moving last September. Obviously that blew up in his face. It served him right, and I will admit to some schadenfreude. Well, okay, A LOT of schadenfreude.
Exposure therapy as a strategy may not be a good idea. I am sure that Dr. Tom would not think so. But it does help me keep the idealization down to a dull roar.
And that doesn’t even cover the (frequent) times that LO snaps at me without provocation. He didn’t do that yesterday. He always apologizes afterward, but it leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth.
I certainly didn’t leave yesterday with a warm fuzzy feeling, so I consider that to be progress of a sort.
The devil is in the details, as always, Norma.
Exposure therapy is usually about “exposure response prevention” as a CBT principle, where the sufferer exposes themselves to the “threat” and practicises moderating the ritual response. This is good for desensitizing yourself to irrational fears, but it’s not good for dealing with addiction.
However, ERP can be helpful in addiction if you can apply it to cues that start cravings or reward-seeking behaviour, but not to the source of addiction itself. For limerence, that might be things or places that remind you of LO, but not the LO themselves.
In your case, I’d say your exposure is useful for feeding your subconscious negative messages about your LO’s self-centred and inconsiderate character. I can see why that would be useful 🙂
To Dr. Tom:
Thank you for replying to me. I don’t completely understand what you said.
I do know that LO and I have little in common, and I seem to need his droning diatribes to remind myself of that fact. I had two very eventful things happen in the last two weeks, and he’d rather talk about Louis Vuitton.
This is helpful to me to notice and remember.
Dear Norma
I read something this week that said “You are not addicted to alcohol or drugs you are addicted to escaping life.” And while there is merit, at least in substance addiction, that it is a chemical addiction biologically, it’s not why you keep returning to that substance solely. There is a reason you can’t break away despite the chemical dependency.
I return to alcohol, partly from the chemical dependency, but it does not address why I return to it. If I would face WHY I return to alcohol I could probably face getting sober from the chemical dependency. But until I do, the chemical dependency will rule my life. I don’t want to drink but it keeps coming around and around. The same with limerence and LOs. Until we face why they appeal to us, we can’t break the addiction.
“This is good for desensitizing yourself to irrational fears, but it’s not good for dealing with addiction.”
You can objectively do all the right things, NC, avoiding intrusive thoughts, but until you realize why this person shines, to you, you will never overcome the addiction to them. Dr L can totally correct me if this is not the point he was trying to point it out but that’s how I perceived it.
ND
It seems to me you know what you’re working with when it comes to this guy. He seems to be extremely rude, selfish, has too much going on to consider you or your feelings and figures you accept him as he is, no matter how much that interiorly frustrates you. You already know the end game here, which is he’s gay. So obviously there can be no happy ending for you unless you somehow get him to change from his preferences. I don’t see that happening and since he does so much overall, that seemingly annoys you, I don’t even know how you could still be limerent for the guy. I don’t know your homelife situation, but maybe you’re lonely and accepting things and friendships as they are, because its better than nothing. Personally I don’t like being around angry, bitter Women. Who are moody, opinionated and especially ones who snap at me. That is a direct turn-off.
I think what the good Doctor was trying to tell you was that it’s good you are noticing the things about your LO that make him a bad LO. But if you are still finding yourself addicted or enjoying whatever kind of company (good or bad) he is infact supplying you, then that is why you are stuck in the conundrum you are with this episode.
I think Brother Adam probably tied in what I mentioned here, but I’m just putting in my one cent.
To MJ:
Thank you for your comments. I am still limerent for this person, but it has decreased maybe 75% from what it was three years ago. So it’s much more manageable.
I AM lonely and do accept people as they are. I have similar complaints about my best girlfriend, who is also snappish. I tried discussing it with her, but it caused her to just get angrier. I already know that LO is the same. Trying to discuss things seems to make everything worse.
I can’t seem to improve my relationships, and I don’t want to cut them off, so I just accept them.
Even if LO suddenly changed his sexual preference, it wouldn’t change his personality. He is 67 years old and has not had a romantic relationship last more than about five years, and I can see why. He is a workaholic and has an avoidant personality. He’s a very difficult man. I can’t explain why I am limerent for him.
Dear Norma
I’m always here for you. I know I can only be so much to your loneliness only being online but know that you are in my heart. I very much hate how your LO disregards you but know I will never do that. In my own trying times I’m going through now, I know my brother will look after you. You are precious to me no matter how that clod treats you.
To Adam:
Thank you for your sweet comments.
Your kindness warms my heart.
Praying for you every day.
Back to Dr L’s original question re tango and limerence. I love Argentine tango, and dancing in general. I’ve been to many ballroom and salsa classes over the years. But I’ve never had a crush or a limerent episode arise from any of them. From experience, it’s just another occasion where one meets other people, with no more or less danger of limerence than any other meeting place. Perhaps the physical contact would fan the flames of any limerence that may take hold, but I don’t know as it hasn’t happened to me. There’s always a shortage of men, anyway. Take me as a sample of one.
To Miss Cloud:
There definitely is a shortage of men at dances. That’s the truth!
So even less chance for a limerent experience.
I used to know how to square dance but it’s been so long I don’t remember how to anymore. Never did tango. Don’t think I could.
I like slow dancing though. Momma would be exasperated/slightly annoyed when I’d try to slow dance when she was cooking dinner. But she’d amuse me. I love dancing with her. Whether is Let’s Dance or Slow Dancing. I love it.
Some day we’ll dance Miss Norma.
https://youtu.be/VbD_kBJc_gI?si=aWl1BrNo32hy9Jdh
https://youtu.be/tmiNLVTDFDI?si=rDVmUoq_OkGJxiNN
To Adam:
I personally would think that just casual slow-dancing would be much more erotic than performing the Tango.
There’s not much to think about with the slow-dancing, so your mind can drift to other things besides timing, technique and posture.
Song of the Day: “Dancing with Myself” – Billy Idol (1981)
https://youtu.be/FG1NrQYXjLU?si=ee4p_3aMjKcB_LCQ
One of my two favorite Billy Idol tunes.
L.E.,
“Flesh for Fantasy.” One of the hottest songs ever recorded. 🙂
I love the way he says “flesh,” lol
Marcia,
Like it, link it!
“Flesh for Fantasy” – Billy Idol (1984)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw1oM7LBbxE
I don’t remember this one. It came out on 1984. 1984 was the zenith of my time with LO #2. Clubbing wasn’t our thing and I don’t remember it from the radio even though it reached #29 on the US charts.
Mony Mony – Billy Idol (1981)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPwMsu63PUU
After I broke up with LO #2 in 1987, I started clubbing again. There was one place that played “Mony Mony” every night at 11. The bartenders would get on the bar and dance. There was one in particular that really knew how to bust a move.
When certain verses came on, the bartenders and crowd would pump their arms in the air and yell “Get laid, get f—-d!” It was a great place!
I met my wife in that club.
LE,
“I don’t remember this one. ”
You don’t remember it?! It was a pretty big hit. I just watched the official video. Big hard pass on it. It adds some weird introductory part that isn’t on the album version of the song and the video cuts off the last verse. And that verse has a great line. “It’s nearly morning. Do you wanna risk a chance?”
There’s another great line in the first verse. “So when will you call? I’m experienced.”
Aren’t too many guys who get away with lines like that. Billy Idol could. 🙂
“When certain verses came on, the bartenders and crowd would pump their arms in the air and yell “Get laid, get f—-d!” It was a great place!”
I remember doing that. Although I was never that big on “Mony, Mony.”
“Aren’t too many guys who get away with lines like that.”
I could, lmao.. 😆
I do remember that one and hearing it on the radio. I remember seeing the video from the MTV days.. Screaming ridiculous major 80s there.
I always liked “Eyes without a face”
https://youtu.be/9OFpfTd0EIs?si=N6-kQTwBpPQhtD-f
MJ,
“Screaming ridiculous major 80s there.”
Well, yeah. It was … um … released in the ’80s. 🙂 But that doesn’t take away from the hotness of the song or the hotness of the singer. I forgot how attractive he was back in the day. 🙂
“I always liked ‘Eyes without a face'”
I like that song, too.
Yeah its crazy, he’s 70 now.
I hear this music and I think of being back at the skating rink. Or my gf then with Aqua Net Big hair and blue eye shadow..
Holy crap we’re not getting any younger.. 🫨
MJ,
“Holy crap we’re not getting any younger.. 🫨”
I’ve been trying to tell you that! 🙂
So I went out last night with two girlfriends. We ended up talking to these two guys. (I’m kind of impressed with myself that I initiated the conversation with them 🙂 Where is LaR? That’s an example of opening. We had a nice time. It wasn’t a pick-up party. No vibes whatsoever. ) They followed us to 3 more bars. And I was the OLDEST person in the group. Even though we were all middle aged. Sigh.
“And I was the OLDEST person in the group. Even though we were all middle aged. Sigh”
Marcia
We know its just a number, but it still hits home sometimes, I get that. Thats why I always tell you I don’t look 55 and could probably pass for 45. Or maybe even 48, but I know.. It’s all in my head.
My Father recently renewed his AARP subscription and I did it online for him. The subscription is in his name but Google defaulted a membership card copy to my Google Wallet. In a frenzy I quickly deleted it, lol. I refuse to get old..
Then I’m reminded of my age when I get out of bed or when I get home from work. I feel all achy sometimes and stiff. Then I ask myself, is it really going to keep getting worse? Lord, Lord have mercy. Please say no.. 🤣
NG just turned 45. She talks all the time about being old and yet she seems so much younger than me. I think, man I must be getting up there. A girl in her 20s must look at me as ancient. No wonder I still give LF a Dad vibe.
I watch this guy on YouTube from time to time. His take on David Lee Roth is pretty good.
Perhaps some of the old timers do need to hang it up.. 😆
https://youtu.be/YM8eJYHoWuo?si=wdK-w4zNFQ3Qb1bv
MJ,
“We know its just a number, but it still hits home sometimes, I get that. ”
YOU think it’s just a number. I don’t. 🙂
“Thats why I always tell you I don’t look 55 and could probably pass for 45. Or maybe even 48, but I know.. It’s all in my head.”
Maybe you do look younger. Idk. Basically, there’s no age that will make me happy that people say I could pass for unless it’s like 35. Even if they say 45, that’s still middle-aged. I don’t even like 38 because that’s pushing middle-age.
“I refuse to get old…”
You can refuse all you want to. But it’s still going to happen. 🙂
“NG just turned 45. She talks all the time about being old and yet she seems so much younger than me. ”
Um … because she is. 🙂
“A girl in her 20s must look at me as ancient. No wonder I still give LF a Dad vibe.”
Um … because you could be her dad. 🙂
David Lee Roth … I mean, for 77, he’s looking pretty good. But his voice doesn’t sound good anymore.
Jon Bon Jovi had some kind of vocal chord/health issue. I watched a video of a recent performance. I feel bad for him but he just can’t sing anymore.
Now, he still looks good.
“David Lee Roth … I mean, for 77, he’s looking pretty good.”
Marcia
DLR is only 70. Sammy Hagar is 77.
I however am only 55.. 😆
MJ,
“DLR is only 70. Sammy Hagar is 77. … I however am only 55.. 😆”
You should get some older, male friends. You’d seem young next to them. 🙂
I do have an older male friend. He’s 83. Another guy I work with is 73.
So I guess that does kind of make me the young one.
MJ,
“I do have an older male friend. He’s 83. Another guy I work with is 73. So I guess that does kind of make me the young one.”
I was joking. What you need to find is a wingman. A cruising buddy. He has to be single. Partnered dudes will want to go home before dark. Forget them. 🙂
Find some places to go with age appropriate women (no bars for those in their early 20s) or meetup groups. Some kind of happy hour where middle-age-ish people hang out.
Dances of many genres evoke feelings of release, freedom, human connection, and tap into deep human emotions and is a wonderful form of expression. How can you not be seduced by the art form of dance ?!
( as long as your dance partner isn’t a creep – ha ha !)
There are a number of TV shows featuring celebrities /stars that are partnered with a professional dancer to compete as couples to win a trophy. The format is the same across many countries for some years and very popular too. You know the one in your particular country I am sure.
Anyway, they are often termed as ‘cursed’ due to the huge number of love affairs between the dance couples and subsequent marriage breakdowns they cause.
It’s not exactly surprising when you put two people together that have to spend a lot of time together, learning intimate dance moves, and who are united as a team to compete under intense media pressure.
💃🏻
Then just take SO to a tango/dance class to renew/refresh love sparks ! 🔥 💃
Don’t enroll in any couple-dance class on your (collective) OWN, except Modern.
Snowphoenix,
I am going to assume your comment is to the collective, as I am not seeking or needing any advice on taking dance classes (with or without my SO).
As Cloud mentioned most dance classes are mostly lacking in men anyway.
💃,
I definitely meant universal YOU (with a SO). And because male partners are always in shortage, so bringing a male SO 🕺🏿 is more needed. 😀
As a single, I went to a Tango trial class and hated the strict rules (I learned from my father and socially danced with men or his generation). But a short, similar aged, somewhat more experienced man kept practicing with me, so I felt ok not to be “abandoned” at the chairs in the classroom.
Then this guy insisted on seeing me home (just after 9:30pm). At my gate downstairs, he said something like (can’t remember well), “Do you want me to see off upstairs?” I said, “No.” He then asked, “Are you sure?” I answered, “Yes!” Then he left. I never went to the 2nd class.
I had troubles to say/write “NO”, but not “Yes!” 🙂
Typo: “…see you off…”
“Then just take SO to a tango/dance class to renew/refresh love sparks !
Don’t enroll in any couple-dance class on your (collective) OWN, except Modern.”
Yeah, good luck persuading a male SO to be dragged along to dance classes.
Honestly, I think the only way to prevent meeting someone you may be attracted to is to not leave the house. Except that’s not possible, and actually it would make it worse because you’d fall for the first person you met, like Anna in Frozen. The first time I met LO was out on a walk during a Covid lockdown.
Better to get out and about and meet plenty of people and generally be sociable and happy. That’s better protection against limerence.
Coming from a non-dancing male SO — I was thinking about sending this link to my wife, who has tried to persuade me to dance since the beginning of our marriage.
Second thought, perhaps not a great idea!
The last time I danced was at our wedding some 23 years ago, where I was mocked by my cousin, an attractive, confident but supremely arrogant man. My wife detests him. I tolerate him.
CatDancer ?
To CatCyclist:
The reason I took lessons in the first place is because I was afraid of being mocked at a wedding. It definitely helped. I am not a great dancer, but I no longer feel uncomfortable on a dance floor.
Having a little self-confidence is priceless.
CatCyclist/Dancer
To steal a username here IMHO dancing is more about the emotions it evokes than talent. At least in casual setting vs actual competitions.
It can be dancing with a spouse/partner, father daughter and vice versa or a confidant of some kind. Or dancing alone for that matter. I do that all the time. Just try and stop me when Let’s Dance comes on lol
Adam, yes I fully agree on every single point you made here !
( I stole the IMHO from free speech, so anyone can freely use it 😀 )
Catcyclist – 23 years since you last danced ! You must rectify this immediately. The person at your wedding was not worthy of the invite. The first dance is not about skill but you and your new wife connecting in front of friends and family in a loving union, to invite others to join you in the dance.
Let us know the song you will dance to.
Thanks everybody, wasn’t expecting such a flurry of responses so quickly!
Norma:
Confidence is indeed priceless; I hope you can use it to tell off your LO!
Adam:
Your take on emotions v. talent is so important — it made me realize that I’ve always been so hung up on performance, whether in school, career, athletics, social life, and even romance, which I’m just now beginning to approach from a different angle.
BTW, I’m really amazed at how quickly you’ve recovered from a big setback, adopting such a positive outlook!
IMHO:
Yes, dancing will be next on my agenda. This might be the biggest challenge for me; I had fallen on my face dancing (metaphorically, not literally) on a number of occasions prior to the wedding, but one of the stories was rather amusing, in hindsight, from a limerence perspective. I’ve already started on another life-long challenge — swimming. And the cousin story took a bittersweet twist recently, which I’ll follow up on soon.
CatSwimmer
☁️
It’s true that we meet people anywhere outside of our home. But there are some difference between “meetup” occasions: in all “themed” & random places, including workplace, one’s mind is supposed to be focused on other matters; our logical mind is mostly or often in charge. Of course, one can still fall in a crush during those activities, except sitting, eye-closed meditation sessions.
But on a dance floor, music, particularly strong rhythmic beats, naturally/physically arose/pushes enjoying dancers’ spirit /Qi /libido /energy /vitality, which often take over /suppress the logical thinking. Therefore, swirling dancers (often produce a shiner aura), as well as observers (passively aroused), internally driven by such intoxicating Qi flowing, have an easier time to strongly feel and possibly “fall”, especially in free style dance under drums 🥁 …
I will not repeat my free-dancing experience and its utterly “out of space” /surreal consequence in one workshop retreat I attended over 2.5 decades ago…. I don’t want to be defined here as “decadent” again.… 😊
How very romantic! I’d love to visit your dance floor and admire the swirling dancers and bask in their glimmery aura. So much more enticing than a church hall filled with arhythmically stomping humans.
I jest. Years ago I had a lovely dance with a work colleague upon whom I had a big crush. Nothing was going to come of it; I had a boyfriend, he was engaged, and he was leaving the job. That dance was a sweet parting memory which provided a much nicer sense of closure than him just leaving.
Ok, a more nuanced and less flippant reply to your suggestion that those people wanting to avoid limerence should avoid dance classes or anything with romantic or high-emotion overtones, or elements of closeness.
I think the reason that I’m sceptical is that limerence is different from love or a crush. It’s a state one gets into when the crush goes bad: you get too obsessed with them and it isn’t healthy for you, maybe because they don’t reciprocate your feelings and you have reached a state where you’re unable to move on, or they’re bad for you, or because you’re in another relationship but can’t stop being infatuated with someone else.
I don’t think it’s good advice to avoid being in a situation where you might form a crush on someone. I don’t think it’s possible or healthy to do that, because being attracted to people is a normal part of human experience (even when we’re in committed relationships). Limerence is when the crush turns obsessive, where you can’t move on from those feelings which start to control you and cause you pain. And the difference between a crush and limerence isn’t the difference between meeting someone at work and at a dance class. It isn’t about them or about the situation in which you meet them. It’s about what’s happening within your head that turns a crush into limerence.
I like that Cloud. I think trying to separate limerence from a crush is about as easy as trying to explain to that “one drink” person or that “I don’t eat sweets” person about alcoholism or overeating isn’t futile but it is a difficult thing to explain.
You can try and the other person can strive to understand but may never fully do because it’s never been an experience they’ve faced themselves.
But putting yourself in a situation where bad things may come to fruition for your own selfish desires (and that may be from both parties involved) is foolish. Don’t put yourself in a situation where the Devil can tempt you. It’s why despite limerence, I knew better than outside of work contact with her. We are all broken sinners (sorry to get religious here) and we will stumble. So why do something to encourage that to be a possibility?
And I think understanding our triggers and state of mind are what will help overcome these addictions; a person, alcohol or food. I’m certain that if I hadn’t found LwL I would have made some very, very bad decisions in the name of a dopamine hit regarding her.
☁️,
“a more nuanced and less flippant reply to your suggestion that those people wanting to avoid limerence should avoid dance classes or anything with romantic or high-emotion overtones, or elements of closeness.”
I did not say that dance classes/parties would definitely make anyone to fall in a crush (let alone a limerence), but it has has a larger chance since one would temporarily “forget” other life stuff or relax/rest logical mind for the time being — dancing energy could make it happen more easily.
“I think the reason that I’m sceptical is that limerence is different from love or a crush.”
I think I know by my experiences what’s the difference between two. I
“I don’t think it’s good advice to avoid being in a situation where you might form a crush on someone. I don’t think it’s possible or healthy to do that, because being attracted to people is a normal part of human experience (even when we’re in committed relationships). “
If one is a singleton, I’d encourage him/her to go dance parties or classes just to increase chances to falling in a crush. For partnered people, I’d advise them to brings their SO to go together. The risk of falling in a crash is higher, but not definite; if yes, with the existing SO — the existing barrier, the crush could/would slip into a LE faster.
Myself, if with a bf or SO, would NOT go to a dance class/party alone, I’d either “drag” him to go with me or do something else with him. I never glimmered or fell in crush with anyone in dance classes (also took Ballet, Modern ones) or parties, but my “ Serpentine-Qi-pushed” dancing torso/steps (did you ever see the movie “Red Shoes”) made a couple of men (all singles) to fall in a crush for me; one even followed me to my town across the half Global. It’s very hard/sad for me to say/show him a firm “NO”.
“Years ago I had a lovely dance with a work colleague upon whom I had a big crush. Nothing was going to come of it; I had a boyfriend, he was engaged, and he was leaving the job. That dance was a sweet parting memory which provided a much nicer sense of closure than him just leaving.”
How elegant and sweet it is to close a chapter of a romantic encounter, which leaves one a permanent beautiful memory, instead of being filled with parting sadness/bitterness. Some (budding) love can only exist in one’s heart and memory, not in reality.
Last semester, I had an eager, “extroverted” student (46) with a wife and two girls (11, 9). He showed the class his hobbies with pictures and smiles, “…that’s me and my wife in a ballroom dancing class… only practiced with my wife!” So lovely to hear ! 😃
🎩 🥃,
“I think trying to separate limerence from a crush is about as easy as trying to explain to that “one drink” person or that “I don’t eat sweets” person about alcoholism or overeating isn’t futile but it is a difficult thing to explain.”
Are. You saying that alcoholism or overeating isn’t futile — they function in some beneficial ways?
“And I think understanding our triggers and state of mind are what will help overcome these addictions; a person, alcohol or food.”
Have you done this work yet, especially when you have a lot of free time nowadays? When you’re hugging bottles, are you able to do the need work — “understanding our triggers and state of mind”, with enough mental clarity?
By the way, have you applied some of Stoicism in your daily life, in dealing with yourself? Isn’t drinking within your own control? 😀
Miss Snow
Your courting story reminds of my wife telling the story of her grandmother (though if she was still with us she’d scold me for “her” grandmother as she insisted I was just as much her grandchild as my wife) going on a date for the first time after her husband passed away from a heart attack at 55. I remember Momma telling me they went on the dinner date and he drove her home. And when they were talking on the porch the man tried to kiss her and she basically turned around and slammed the door in his face and, if I recall never went on another date again. She lived into her 90’s. More than 40 years after her husband passed. Grandmother was very tenacious but also loved me and every “in law” as if they were her own.
It was a good one
Miss Marcia
If you’re fond of Billy Idol does David Bowie fall into that category too?
Are you asking me if I like his music or if I like him?
“Aren’t too many guys who get away with lines like that. Billy Idol could.”
Dame Marcia
I was taking this as a combination of his confidence and his possible attraction on a physical level. There’s this weird thing that a lot of heterosexual women find androgynous men appealing. And I thought of David Bowie. Or even Freddy Mercury to an extent.
But I never got into Billy Idol’s music, but I do like David and Freddy’s music.
I like David Bowie’s music. And physically, he’s handsome but I don’t find him sexy. I don’t find Freddie Mercury handsome.
As far as an androgynous man … he’s a feminine dandy. Some women love that s**t. 🙂 Some men do, too. The masculine dandy.
To Marcia:
Love David Bowie’s appearance, not Freddie Mercury’s.
Just my two cents.
Dame Norma
Masculine dandy? I’m not sure I understand. A “man crush”?
Dear Norma
I can see your point of view. If there’s any singer that could “sway” me it’d be Prince based on his style and appearance. Mostly his style.
Norma Desmond:
“Love David Bowie’s appearance.”
I think DB was handsome … he just does nothing for me. He’s not a guy I look at and think: Whoa.
Adam:
“Masculine dandy? I’m not sure I understand. A “man crush”?”
Dandy (per AI): a seductive archetype who fascinates others by defying traditional gender norms and societal expectations, exhibiting an androgynous, stylish, and fiercely independent nature. By blending masculine and feminine traits, they create an ambiguous, mysterious, and alluring persona that promises freedom to the restricted.
Masculine dandy is an androgynous woman. Feminine dandy is an androgynous man.
To Miss Marcia:
David Bowie is my idea of a gorgeous man. Now that you have brought him up, I see a resemblance between Bowie and LO. Slight, though. LO looks much more like an older version of Anderson Cooper than he does Bowie.
Norma D:
Anderson Cooper is handsome.
He just wouldn’t make it on my hot list. But something tells me it’s not keeping him up nights. 🙂
To Marcia:
I seem to remember hearing Anderson Cooper being interviewed about so many people finding him “hot,” and he was incredulous.
He doesn’t see himself that way. I told LO that he was hot and he told me I was crazy.
That so many heterosexual women find Anderson Cooper attractive is …. baffling? Not sure if that is the correct adjective.
One vote here:
Among all the male celebrity named here, I’d definitely go for Anderson Cooper, although he has not glimmered for me yet.
Adam,
“That so many heterosexual women find Anderson Cooper attractive is …. baffling?”
I’m assuming you’re baffled because he’s gay ?
Makes sense to me. A lot of gay men take care of themselves.
Snow, Adam, thank you for all your thoughts about dance classes etc – a helpful, thought-provoking conversation.
On to the next topic: parallels (and differences) between limerence and AI chatbots?
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2026/mar/26/ai-chatbot-users-lives-wrecked-by-delusion?CMP=share_btn_url
I think the parallel is that the Limerent Object in our imagination is perfect and always nice to us and always agrees with us. No real human can live up to this fantasy. A bit like AI.
There are plenty of differences too, but interesting food for thought.
Discuss…
That said … an AI chatbot, it seems, leans towards attuning to us and then doing and saying exactly what we want it to, like a faithful puppy. Even when I use GenAIs for quite mundane work tasks, they write back with all this buttery praise that I neither asked for, not want.
As compared to an LE, which is sustained by unpredictability … part of the mystique of an LO is they vary their behaviour, so we get only intermittent rewards. If the LO was predictable, wouldn’t the LE get old very fast? The ‘Rewards’ from an AI bot are like that … too predictable and easy to obtain, too fawning. No thrill of the chase there.
I had an experience with AI when I had to download instructions on how to put together some exercise equipment for Dad not long ago. The instructions came on an app. So when I began the project, I found the AI Ladys voice very charming and alluring.
Almost sexy. I was repeating certain steps on the app just because I liked the way she was encouraging and being helpful.
I kept wishing it was LO talking to me like that.
I guess my experience is a little different from yours then.. 😆
MJ,
Well, maybe this is a risky topic to bring up, but these days I believe it’s possible to create an AI character and avatar who acts exactly like you want them to! They can become like an echo chamber for everything you want.
I’ve read articles before about people who fell in love with an AI creation, a bit like the one Cloud posted. In another one the guy went through genuine depression when ChatGPT went to an upgraded version and his AI ‘wife’ was killed off in the process.
I’ve seen it argued on here that an AI LO is safer than a human LO, but I don’t buy it.
At the moment do you find that images and videos of AI people still have this ‘unreal’ look? That puts me off.
☁️,
On to the next topic: parallels (and differences) between limerence and AI chatbots?
To me, there is little parallel and huge differences, for the obvious one is that AI chatbot has no physical forms. How on earth an online 🤖 could move my pair-boning drive or 5 five senses⁉️ 🙄 I probably would end up ‘giving’ this Chatbot a face of my previous LO, therefore possibly kindling back my old LO/LE with a psychotic delusion❗️
“I think the parallel is that the Limerent Object in our imagination is perfect and always nice to us and always agrees with us. No real human can live up to this fantasy. “
🤔 What’s your definition of “perfect” and “nice”❓ “always agreeable” like a drooling puppy? I bet if we do a survey in LwL, limerents’ fantasies about their LOs could be as different as the Sun from the Moon‼️
In the past, I witnessed/experienced agreeable (wo)men from annoyingly flattery, to disgustingly fawning, or to pathetically spineless, MUCH less attractive than disagreeable people (at least got their own points, right or wrong, to stimulate your mind), who sometimes taught something new or valuable to me (of course, after I verbally wrestled 💪 with them).
As an available crush/BP (I don’t want another LO), being 50~60% agreeable (all in core values) is sufficient to me. Learning about and adjusting to each other’s 40~50% disagreeable/quirks would keep two independent, curious minds engaged or amused, ie. I don’t know why I absolutely can’t have socks 🧦 on when I take naps, WHY⁉️
The same goes for “nice” people; they just want to be “nice”, instead of being truthful/honest; “nice” is different from “kind” — truly considering for oneself’s and others’ wellbeing — I’ll bash that Adam’s head 🔨 as long as he still runs to his bottles, regardless of whether he’d curse me in whatever fashions… 😊
What’s a “perfect” BP/LO to me? — a man who has at least 1️⃣ vulnerability that I can assist to remove/“unblend”. Don’t believe that only males, like Adam or L.E. has a “Savior” complex; an Eastern (no chivalry traditions) tomboy like me, also likes/enjoys feeling “wanted and needed”, making my trivial existence meaningful.
Ideally, this LO/BP and me are mutually a teacher/student to each other (in different areas); mutual a “savior” to each other (in different aspects); equally curious/open-minded to the external world and each other’s inner life; truly respectful and accepting each others’ needs/quirks; independently Stoic and sufficiently IFS aware, while deeply caring for and reliable to each other; able to freely shred tears in front of each other…. Is this ever possible? 😊
“A bit like AI.”
AI (I never used Chatbot so far) is so obnoxious and annoying to always give me one-line flattery/praise, even when I just asked a simple ”what is…” I still can’t understand why so many smart (not necessarily wise) people have fell into its spell and misleading hand ☹️ ‼️
WHY so MANY PEOPLE (more in the West by proportion, including the US President), want external, LOs’ as well as strangers’, validations⁉️ Where are these insurmountable insecurities come from, in a “free”/democratic world❓ 🧐
“WHY so MANY PEOPLE (more in the West by proportion, including the US President), want external, LOs’ as well as strangers’, validations⁉️ Where are these insurmountable insecurities come from, in a “free”/democratic world❓ 🧐”
Really good question! Is it really just a trait of people in Western countries? I think I am one of those people who is desperate for validation. Where does it come from I wonder?
☁️,
“Is it really just a trait of people in Western countries?”
YES. Based on my limited travels and observations, this trait is much worse in Western affluent countries, the US is the worst❗️(of course, not everyone, but in general). If you’ve been to South Asian countries, Japan, Tibet, you’d see so much calmness, contentment, relaxation, warmth, joy… on street people’s face.
My x-in-law, who made documentary films in China (which is even not a model nation in this regard), was just puzzled beyond belief, why ordinary people, who was/is living in much “inferior” living conditions in almost every aspects, could show so much ease on their faces (his camera caught a lot of images).
“I think I am one of those people who is desperate for validation. Where does it come from I wonder?”
Do you mind telling us here: what sorts of validation do you desperately need? from anyone/group specific or people in general? If you get them, what do you imagine you’d feel? If not, then what❓
The source of IT — Insecurity, which needs to be validated, is usually from one’s childhood, past specific traumas, or particular physical/mental/psychological needs (in neurodivergent groups). If you really want to get rid of this insecurity, you’d have to go back to the past to locate its source. Then use whatever therapeutic tools, by yourself or with a therapist, to heal this wound/vulnerability/“exile”.
Once it’s gone, one would not need any external validation or care about any invalidation. I’ve been through the process, and KNOW how truly liberated, clear minded, grounded, content, joyful, loving, etc.,, one could feel when the (sub)conscious needs/wants of Validation no longer exist within oneself❗️
Good lucks 🍀 🫂
Miss Snow
What I was trying to say is trying to explain chronic drinking or overeating to someone that doesn’t have that issue, they may be able understand it objectively, but never at a level of true understanding of either disorder. Much like trying to explain limerence vs a crush. Unless you’ve experienced it, you can’t truly grasp it, even if said person wants to understand. It’s futile to do so not because the other person is being obtuse but that they can’t understand it truly because of lack of experience.
I have been applying the Stoics to my life. “It’s not what happens you but how you react to it that matters.” And realizing the difference between what I can control and what I can’t control has helped in my life as it is now. The Stoics have definitely helped me in my trying times. And I have you to thank for that young lady.
“Isn’t drinking within your control?”
Yes. But I’m a hypocrite in that aspect. Yes I know it is within my control but at the same time feels like it’s not. It’s a juxtaposition that’s hard to put into words to explain to someone that doesn’t have said issue.
Alcohol wants to keep you in a cycle of hopelessness. And you know it does. But you keep on. You know it’s destroying you but you don’t know any better. Especially in my case when it’s been 30 years of my life. Some people can pull out of it. I don’t know if I am one of those people. But I appreciate your concern. Maybe when things get better in life I can try and cut back to start. But now, I dunno my friend.
I am going to watch and comment on the links you posted in our other conversation soon. I’ve been thinking on your posts you made. I am not ignoring them. Just need to formulate my responses.
🎩 🥃,
What I was trying to say is trying to explain chronic drinking or overeating to someone that doesn’t have that issue, they may be able understand it objectively, but never at a level of true understanding of either disorder. “
Gotcha! But no one needs to experience a cancer to know what it is. Whether inherited or acquainted, I allude an addiction as a chosen mental tumor that could mutate into a mental cancer.
“Much like trying to explain limerence vs a crush. Unless you’ve experienced it, you can’t truly grasp it, even if said person wants to understand. It’s futile to do so not because the other person is being obtuse but that they can’t understand it truly because of lack of experience.”
Very true. Most of us here, as well as uncountable people in the history, fell into LE before having any knowledge of it. But if after knowing about LE and LwL’s nugget, one still chooses to follow and act on unavailable Glimmer, one is either obtuse or an addict, with deep, unresolved vulnerability/exile parts.
“I have been applying the Stoics to my life. “It’s not what happens you but how you react to it that matters.” And realizing the difference between what I can control and what I can’t control has helped in my life as it is now. The Stoics have definitely helped me in my trying times. And I have you to thank for that young lady.”
I’m very happy to hear this good news! 🫂 Please keep Stoic discerning eyes with you as much as possible, especially when you’re angry or upset by some personal or societal injustice and ask, “Why am I so upset? Is it within or out of my control? What can I do to stop my emotional reactions, without reaching my bottles?”
The biggest challenge is to face and endure mental weakness/pains; they will ALL pass (as soon as 1~2 hours) ‼️ Once the Stoic mental habit is set in, one’s psychological sufferings WILL reduce sharply and more peace would come into your life.
“But I’m a hypocrite in that aspect.”
If you admit you’re a hypocrite, your valuable advice/advocacy would lose all their credentials.
“Yes I know it is within my control but at the same time feels like it’s not. It’s a juxtaposition that’s hard to put into words to explain to someone that doesn’t have said issue.”
That’s your excuse, I do NOT buy it‼️ Feelings cannot be relied on especially from/during an addiction; they come and go all the time. Your logical mind clearly KNOWS it’s very detrimental to yourself and those around you! Unwise, unwise, unwise‼️
I had a drinking binge once more than 1.5 decade ago – two big glasses of red wine every evening for one month due to depression/despair/boredom. I remember the drowsy, foggy effects that dulled mental pains but solved nothing the next morning. Then luckily I had a checkup during that time, which showed my liver’s index changed. So I immediately cut it. I WILL not do something that will certainly harm my physical health — the stupidest thing to knowingly do in my upbringing!
“Alcohol wants to keep you in a cycle of hopelessness. And you know it does. But you keep on. You know it’s destroying you but you don’t know any better.”
Why do you say you “don’t know any better”? you don’t know how it feels to be sober❓Why NOT give it try❓ What are you afraid if you’re 💯 sober? Which exiles are hidden underneath your “firefighter—alcoholic❓ Cannot you summon all your Selfs to unblend/retire this “firefighter”❓ Everyone HAS innate Self, but yours were also buried under your “firefighters”❗️ I can’t comprehend why anyone would want to stay feeling “hopelessness”— hiding that hopeless child, instead of nurturing ‘him’, making ‘him’ grow, and finally liberating him⁉️
“Especially in my case when it’s been 30 years of my life. Some people can pull out of it. I don’t know if I am one of those people. “
Excuse, excuse, excuse, so NOT Stoic❗️😟 With your current condition, even if you were single and your LO also single, I bid she’d still avoid near you! Trust me, no sensible women/mothers would knowingly deal with an alcoholic/addict bf/LO (I married my xSO before even himself knew he was alcoholic). Your Mamma is truly a Saint‼️
“But I appreciate your concern. Maybe when things get better in life I can try and cut back to start. But now, I dunno my friend.”
No need, I tend to speak honestly, regardless of how you’d take it. In my grade book, you still have F in Stoicism. You need to appreciate more of your Mamma❗️
“I am going to watch and comment on the links you posted in our other conversation soon. I’ve been thinking on your posts you made. I am not ignoring them. Just need to formulate my responses.”
Take your time to study/undersand IFS as a tool to understand oneself and help one’s “internal family members” to get along harmoniously and joyfully! Good lucks 🍀
🎩 🥃,
Why do you think I’m mad at your defense? Perhaps it’s my poor ESL skills that could not convey my care for you enough?
Your excessive drinking or your defense for alcoholic has no effect on my realistic life, neither negatively or positively, which hence could not arose my emotional reaction towards it at all❗️ I’d always try to speak my truth with smiles 😀 but without sugar coating, so as not to enable the existing problems, i.e. excessive drinking, excessive looping over one’s (ex)LO/LE without taking needed actions.
It was you who first asked me some questions about Stoicism, so I spent a great deal of time to answer them, and searched articles and video clips (had to watch each of them at least once or twice before posting) to introduce some therapeutical tools (they worked for me). Whether you read them or not, adjust your mentality or not, change your actions or not, is totally under YOUR own control, but not mine at all. Thus, I feel very content to have done the part that I wanted or enjoyed doing.
I’ve encouraged /praised your great efforts in implementing some Stoic thinking in other areas of your life, which has fruited❗️ But I cannot just close my eyes, not pointing out that your chosen addiction — Alcoholic, that made you sometime not even aware what you had written here, is totally opposite of/against Stoicism.
I’ve brought in IFS (I took a paid course 4-5 years ago for 3 months) here, so you, me, and anyone else would NOT negatively judge /too harsh on our own vulnerability/protector parts; which are there for reasons. IFS could also help one recognize and strengthen one’s internal, mental leader — Self, which hopefully could relax protectors (“managers” and “firefighters”) and unblend /liberate /heal those buried, painful wounds/vulnerabilities/exiles.
In COO, we used to beg/entreat our close friends to tell us about our behavioral flaws/problems that ourselves could not see. We clearly knew that indifferent acquaintances or rivals/enemies would never tell us any truth that would be beneficial to us; some of them even wished to see us to fail or “lose face” in public. So we were trained to be emotionally/mentally strong (a famous line, “What tears could do for you⁉️”) , smart and disciplined to survive or just suffer less.
Rarely, a sharp-mouthed rival /“enemy” who could tell us a crucial, beneficial truth or invalidate our untruth /nonsense might become our ally or close friend.
🫂
From Fifth Avenue Up
Djuna Barnes
1892 –1982
Someday beneath some hard
Capricious star—
Spreading its light a little
Over far,
We’ll know you for the woman
That you are.
For though one took you, hurled you
Out of space,
With your legs half strangled
In your lace,
You’d lip the world to madness
On your face.
We’d see your body in the grass
With cool pale eyes.
We’d strain to touch those lang’rous
Length of thighs,
And hear your short sharp modern
Babylonic cries.
It wouldn’t go. We’d feel you
Coil in fear
Leaning across the fertile
Fields to leer
As you urged some bitter secret
Through the ear.
We see your arms grow humid
In the heat;
We see your damp chemise lie
Pulsing in the beat
Of the over-hearts left oozing
At your feet.
See you sagging down with bulging
Hair to sip,
The dappled damp from some vague
Under lip,
Your soft saliva, loosed
With orgy, drip.
Once we’d not have called this
Woman you—
When leaning above your mother’s
Spleen you drew
Your mouth across her breast as
Trick musicians do.
Plunging grandly out to fall
Upon your face.
Naked—female—baby
In grimace,
With your belly bulging stately
Into space.
She Passed This Way
Djuna Barnes
1892 –1982
Here where the trees tremble with your flight
I sit and braid thin whips to beat you down.
How shall we ever find you who have gone
In little dresses, lisping through the town?
Great men on horses hunt you, and strong boys
Employ their arrows in the shallow air.
But I shall be heard whistling where I follow
Braiding long wisps of grass and stallion’s hair.
And in the night when thirty hawks are high
In pendent rhythm, and all the wayside loud;
When they are burning field and bush and hedge,
I’ll steal you like a penny from the crowd.
I’d Have You Think of Me
Djuna Barnes
1892 –1982
As one who, leaning on the wall, once drew
Thick blossoms down, and hearkened to the hum
Of heavy bees slow rounding the wet plum,
And heard across the fields the patient coo
Of restless birds bewildered with the dew.
As one whose thoughts were mad in painful May,
With melancholy eyes turned toward her love,
And toward the troubled earth whereunder throve
The chilly rye and coming hawthorn spray—
With one lean, pacing hound, for company.
Hello folks. I’m new here, so forgive me if I’ve got this wrong, but it sounds as though Coffeehouse posts are the place to discuss all topics, not just (in this case) dancing. Please direct me elsewhere if it would be more appropriate!
My question is an odd one: What do you do when you’ve been married for 30 years and suddenly undergo limerence… for your own wife?
Last year my wife was unfaithful to me. She quickly admitted it to me and expressed considerable regret. My immediate response was to try to work out what it all meant and whether it would happen again. We went through a period of hysterical bonding.
She was adamant that it meant nothing, just perimenopausal hormones and midlife crisis. After a time, the bonding became less hysterical for her as she tried to compartmentalise what had happened and put it behind her. I tend to over-think things, and kept trying to synthesise it so that I could try to integrate it into a new normal.
The bonding did not become less hysterical for me; rather, it segued into what I think one might call limerence. I felt like I had taken stock of everything I loved about her, and it had made me really count my blessings. I started to feel quite infatuated with her.
We have always had quite an independent relationship, which has been one of its great strengths. In the early days, we spent much of our time together, but still managed to have our own separate lives. Thirty years later we were still in love, but not like lovestruck teenagers… except that now, I was feeling more that way.
My moment-to-moment happiness relied on her continued affection. My neediness started to grate on her, so I suppressed it. But still I felt it. And it felt wrong to try to introduce emotional distance between us. When your limerent object is some other woman, you do this to save your marriage. When it’s your own wife, what do you do?
This was all about seven months ago now, but it all flared up again recently, because it felt so unfair that I was carrying all the emotional burden arising from her infidelity. She has since been making an effort to meet me more in the middle with affection, but I know it won’t last because she is such an effective compartmentaliser.
Besides, I do really want to be a bit more grounded. I love feeling so intensely about her, but it’s a rollercoaster that often I wish I wasn’t riding. She feels towards me the way that we both felt about each other before this all blew up, the way that you would expect after 30 years of marriage: something much more steady and less passionate, more realistic and less clingy.
Has anybody else experienced anything similar? How did you deal with it?
Welcome to the forum..
I’m one of the divorced men here, so I can’t really give you a good answer. Other than maybe find something else you like to do to occupy your time. I can’t say it’s really a bad thing if LO is your Wife, but I can see how the intensity there would be somewhat maddening. To you and her. Perhaps thats what keeps her where she’s at with compartmentalizing things. So I would suggest work on keeping yourself in check, so you don’t over-do it and push her away again. I think Women tend to look at Love-Bombing as kind of cringe.
Maybe not the best suggestion but I tried.. Hopefully one of our illustrious Ladies here have some thoughts.
Thank you, MJ, for your thoughts.
“I can’t say it’s really a bad thing if your LO is your Wife”
That’s just it though — it doesn’t feel wrong to me at all, whereas trying to put distance between us *does* feel wrong, particularly after the turmoil of her unfaithfulness.
I don’t want to stop feeling this way about her, but she wants me to. Which somehow feels like it’s the wrong way round, given that it was her who transgressed.
It’s not love-bombing exactly, it’s just like being a teenager in love again. Which we were, once upon a time — but both at the same time. Now, I feel like she thinks she has put away childish things, and I should too.
I can find other things to occupy my time, and I happen in a few days’ time to be going away for a month, about which I have very mixed feelings.
Limerick
I have anxious attachment. Both with my wife and my LO at that time. There are plenty of nights I’ll wake up and my wife isn’t in the bed and I’ll either call out for her or get up and go looking for her. 99% of the time she’s in the bathroom, but I still panic. She gets exasperated most times. “I’m not leaving you anytime. Go back to bed.” But I can’t help being clingy. I say “Adam you’re being clingy and irrational.” Then another voice says “But she’s my wife!” Outside of the infidelity part I can understand what you feel now.
Physical touch is my love language and coupled with my anxious attachment I can understand that I might be suffocating but I can’t help myself. My wife is the only one in which I express my love language with through touch and affection.
Just the other day I was sitting up in bed watching TV and I noticed she kept nodding off. So I took her laptop out of her way and put my arm around and just kind of laid against my chest and went to sleep more comfortably. Best day ever. Cold drink, The Simpsons on TV and your wife sleeping in your lap.
Thanks, Adam.
I work late and my wife works early and we have, for the past decade or so, fallen into habits of sleeping in separate rooms (initially one-offs to avoid waking each other at particularly critical times, or when one of us is ill and needs the extra sleep; but then, over time, it has become the norm because we both get better sleep).
And because we were quitr independent, it worked for both of us. But now I really miss it and want it. When we go and stay with friends or wherever, we usually share a bed and I love it. Or sometimes we have time to doze after sex during the day. Or rather, she will doze, and I will lie with my arm draped over her in a state of “best day ever”.
We’re kind of like that too. Due to my wife’s mental illness she can’t work so her sleeping schedule is iritic at best so sometimes I do sleep in another room to make sure I get good rest to go to work in the morning.
I do try to stifle my clinginess lots of times. She doesn’t get mad at me per say and will often times still hold my hand when we do sleep together. At our age she is going through menopause and our physical intimacy is rare. But I love it when it’s shared. I try to understand, not being a woman I can’t understand it but give her space to deal. LO was a product of my own midlife crisis so I can’t judge.
Glad that you found this community. They have helped me so much in the 3 years I have been here. You will get a lot of support here.
I don’t think I was ever limerent for my wife. We were friends for a good while before it turned romantic.
We were friends first too. When we first got together it was bliss. Now I see her through the same eyes as I did then, but it’s not reciprocated the same way, which has me on an emotional rollercoaster.
To Limerick:
I am concerned that your limerence for your wife could backfire.
If your over-enthusiasm for the relationship is unpleasant for her, it could put a lot of stress on your relationship.
I had something slightly similar happen with my ex-husband, who was verbally abusive. I had gotten to the point where I had to distance myself from him emotionally somewhat. All of a sudden, he seemed to be transformed into a lovesick puppy. I couldn’t respond to him the way he wanted. When he saw that my responses were “unsatisfactory,” he flew into a rage and launched a scorched-earth divorce against me.
I realize this has nothing to do with you. But your interesting story brought back some memories.
Thank you, Norma.
I can understand why my situation might have reminded you of yours, but there was no verbal abuse or anything like to cause my wife to distance herself from me to the extent of infidelity; she believes it to have been perimenopausal hormones and midlife crisis (we got together as teenagers; although the early years were somewhat tumultuous, we had been pretty stable for two decades).
My response to my wife’s resistance to my limerence has been to try to suppress it, which worked for about 6 months but then it all flared up again recently. I have no inclination to divorce her, let alone scorch the earth. If she ever had an affair and lied to me long term about it, I think I would leave her, but even then only with the heaviest of hearts.
I’m not sure about becoming limerent, but I’ve read stores where one person in a couple is unfaithful and the other person reattaches pretty strongly and the relationship becomes more sexual. I assumed the response of the cheated-upon person would be the opposite (they’d pull away, which can happen), but the opposite response happens as well because the cheated-upon spouse is trying to defend the relationship and resecure the bond.
Thank you, Marcia.
I have learned that this reattachment is called “hysterical bonding” (although for my own part it’s not gendered that way).
The “resecure the bond” part lasted about a fortnight and then segued into the limerent territory of idealization, uncertainty of reciprocation, and obsessiveness.
Hi Limerick, thank you for sharing your story. It is interesting because you are the first person in our community to develop limerence for their current SO. I’m a little suspicious that you might be experiencing a BPD symptom and your wife might be your favorite person rather than your LO. I encourage you to google borderline personality disorder and see what you think.
Regardless of what is driving your feelings, they are important to address. I will do my best to repeat back what I heard because I want to see if I understand your situation.
You have been married for 20 years. You and your wife don’t sleep in the same bed. After your wife cheated on you, the two of you grew much closer and became significantly more intimate, especially in the bedroom. Now that the intimacy is fading, you miss feeling close to your wife.
Did I get it right? When you say that your wife was unfaithful, what kind of infidelity are we talking about?
Best wishes!
Thank you, Lovisa.
We have been married for 20 years but together another 10 before that.
We have always been quite intimate, but the infidelity created a short-term need in me for even more intimacy. This then segued into me idolising her and become more infatuated.
The infidelity was mostly two separate incidents in one night but also a more prolonged situation with minor physicality. I am trying to encourage her to think more deeply about it to get to the root of it so that we can properly rebuild.
Limerick,
“The infidelity was mostly two separate incidents in one night but also a more prolonged situation with minor physicality. ”
Were these with the same person? Idk. I’m not in it. I can’t say exactly what I would do, but the prolonged situation would bother me, regardless of whether it was fully consummated. That’s a conscious decision, repeatedly, over time.
Three different people, Marcia.
It all bothers me.
But if I may quote you from elsewhere in this post:
> I know the feeling. 🙂 “I’m attracted to you. I never said I liked you.” 🙂
Limerick,
“But if I may quote you from elsewhere in this post:
> I know the feeling. 🙂 “I’m attracted to you. I never said I liked you.” 🙂”
I’m not sure who/what you’re referring to. Your feelings for your wife? Your wife’s feeling for these other men ?
I was referring to an LO who I spent maybe about month with (I use the term “with” loosely; we were not a couple). I couldn’t feel that way about a long-term, partner. I’d have to fundamentally like them, respect them and trust them.
Marcia,
I’m not drawing a direct parallel, just trying to be pithy about how rationality is not really the driving force in limerence.
You’re right that my wife has wronged me, but there is so much more good than bad in our marriage. Taking stock of this during hysterical bonding appears to be what has left me in a state of limerence.
If I continue in this state, I risk alienating her from the marriage. If I try to focus on the wrong, I risk alienating myself. I just want to return to balance.
Limerick,
You’re more than likely limerent because all of this has caused you a lot of anxiety. Anxiety, uncertainty. It fuels limerence.
So instead of focusing on your wife and the effect of your limerence on her and your marriage (which will cause more anxiety), I’d shift your focus to yourself and quelling some of the anxiety. (I’m not in any way suggesting this will be easy.) Have you thought about working with a therapist?
Marcia,
My anxiety rests on my wife’s ability to be honest with both of us about the root of her behaviours.
I don’t want the marriage to be over, so I have to take this on myself for now.
I just wish I wasn’t about to go abroad for a month without her.
Limerick,
“My anxiety rests on my wife’s ability to be honest with both of us about the root of her behaviours.”
You may never have an answer. Or a satisfactory one. People are complicated and they have contradictory impulses, and sometimes they act selfishly. I’m not trying to be flippant when I write that. Or suggest you have to accept her repeating this behavior in the future.
“I don’t want the marriage to be over, so I have to take this on myself for now.”
I’m not sure what you mean, but at some point you’ll have to process your own feelings. Which is why I suggested putting the focus back on you. At least in the short term. To make you feel a little less anxious.
But I am not a therapist. I can’t tell you exactly what they would suggest.
“I just wish I wasn’t about to go abroad for a month without her.”
That’s actually good. It’ll give you some distance and downtime on your own. Hopefully, you’ll be doing something that will keep you busy.
Thank you, Marcia.
I don’t know how to put the focus on me. I’m going away on what should be an the trip of a lifetime, but I just don’t really want to go.
I can deal with repeat behaviour, but only if I can trust her to tell me about it. And so far she’s been telling herself a story that contains enough contradictions for me not to be able to guarantee that.
I feel sick and am dreading what I should be looking forward to.
Hi Limerick,
Going away for a month is a big deal under any circumstance.
I always get stressed before I travel, even for vacation.
Maybe try to reframe it as a break away and a reset opportunity for you and your marriage. It could be perfect timing and ‘meant to be’.
A trip of a lifetime to be embraced.
I can imagine many people would be very envious of you to have such an opportunity.
I always find that once I am on the journey it’s ok, more than ok and then I wonder why I dreaded it so much.
This is your time to be ‘you’ as an individual and enjoy it and I am sure the experience will enrich you and ultimately your marriage.
I think you deserve it.
Best wishes
Limerick,
“I can deal with repeat behaviour, but only if I can trust her to tell me about it. ”
I’m not sure if I’m understanding you. Is your relationship open? Are you upset about the infidelity, that she didn’t tell you or both?
If she’s trying to open things up now, don’t do it if you’re not comfortable with it. Decide what your dealbreakers are to stay and communicate those to her. (If I’m way off here in terms of my interpretation of what you wrote, ignore this.)
“And so far she’s been telling herself a story that contains enough contradictions for me not to be able to guarantee that.”
Again, you write vaguely. 🙂 You get to determine how much information about these affairs you want. Some people want all the details and some don’t. That’s up to you. But she needs to be willing to provide details and discuss things, including your relationship.
“I feel sick and am dreading what I should be looking forward to.”
I agree with what other posters have said. This trip will give you two some much needed space. Try to communicate with her in a manner and frequency you would have before all this happened. I know it’s not going to be easy, but try not to flood her with texts and calls.
Imho and Marcia, thank you both for your replies.
I spoke to my wife about all of this tonight, and I feel much better now.
I don’t want to open up our relationship, and neither does she.
It’s just that if she does something, I would much rather know about it.
I’m really going to try to enjoy this time away.
Thanks again.
Hello Limerick,
Sorry for to read the pain you have had to go through. I do remember a lady on here some time ago who shared her story that she became Iimerent for her husband. I cannot remember the exact circumstances that led to it but I think she felt like she was losing him and she suddenly pined for him to come home from work every day.
If that maybe helps give some comfort that your limerence for a spouse is not totally unique.
What else can I say but that you are approaching your marital situation so well and that you are most welcome here Limerick
Thank you, Imho.
I wouldn’t mind at all being limerent for my wife if she didn’t find it smothering in the context of how independent our relationship was previously.
My head is telling me I’m putting her on a pedestal but my heart is telling me she’s just the most wonderful woman in the world.
The additional complication is that it feels damaging to the marriage to try to create distance between one’s spouse and oneself.
To Limerick:
Maybe just try to look at it as giving her the space that she needs.
That is a way of loving her.
Hi Limerick,
I don’t have the answers, sadly, however, my view is being happy and confident in yourself really helps the health of relationships.
Being clingy in a marriage can be a turn off , and I have witnessed that.
I also put a comment about your upcoming trip elsewhere. sorry I’m posting to you randomly.
Thank you, Norma and Imho.
I really want to get back to the way things were, to be confident enough in us both that I can give her the space she needs without feeling on edge about it.
Hopefully a month apart is for the best.
https://imgur.com/a/pGS8C9v
Thank you for the shout-out there Brother. I appreciate your kindness and friendship over the years. Going on 3 in the forum now. Thats so crazy isn’t it?
Gonna be 4 years in July since the LE began. Glad I’m not where I was but she still makes me sad now and then.
I drive by my former workplace going to and leaving work every night. They got it all cleaned it out now. All it is, is one big empty space. Surreal to see it like that now. LOs office is dark, but her cubicle is still there. Oh how I miss seeing her in it.. 🥺🥹
To Adam:
Sending you love and hugs.
Sorry Bewitched I posted before I proof read it and then posted it in the wrong thread.
https://imgur.com/a/vVry8ay
Dear Adam,
Thank you for the shout-out.
Your regard for your fellow LwL-ers is returned ten-fold, my friend.
On the subject of being affectionate and, dare I say, a little clingy with your own wife, I have the impression that this can happen, especially in midlife. From the woman’s perspective, I seem to hear from a lot of friends my age describing that same dynamic of hubby being a bit more interested in cuddling than they are, so its maybe common enough (?).
Personally, I just get really hot (in the temperature sense!) and struggle to be too near anyone else, at times and when my temperature fluctuates, it leaves me feeling a bit claustrophobic. But I do also really love that SO tries his luck, without pressing his luck, if you know what I mean – a balance, you might say? Just my two cents from a woman’s perspective.
A long marriage goes through all sorts of phases and we do need to remember not to take the other person for granted. Affection is never, ever, a bad thing.
I am so happy you got your car back!
Happy Easter
🐥
Bewitched
“But I do also really love that SO tries his luck, without pressing his luck, if you know what I mean – a balance, you might say?”
I really like this, as it’s how I approach physical intimacy with Momma now. Grad her hand, put my hand on her thigh as I fall asleep or my hands through her hair. And then pull back if I get a bad signal or let her make the decision to let it escalate herself. (Though I have to compete with our jealous ass female cat that tries to out-cuddle me. Spoiled cat.)
It’s funny on the body temperature my wife complains I’m more hot blooded (literally and the Foreigner song) than she is. Most times she can’t sub com to me close to her (unless she’s in the mood) because I run an everyday temperature between 97-100 F. So she’s more like “you’re hot” and I go 😏 lol
Dear Adam,
“because I run an everyday temperature between 97-100 F” Haha, same! Just imagine if, in addition to ‘running hot’, your female hormones were taking that temp and randomly raising it to the point of discomfort. Its a killer.
Adam, I am guessing that we’ve both been married for about the same length of time and we both seem to have stability in the sense of both sides being reasonably happy. This is such a gift. I know that you sometimes question on here about how happy Momma is with you, but ye honestly do sound very happy. I think your sh1t (for the want of a better word) is maybe related to other stuff? I know mine was and that limerence hit because of my mental health taking a nose-dive, rather than due to anything about my marriage.
I do hope that you’re doing better today as I know you had a bad day earlier this week.
Its rubbish when things are hard over a long time and that really takes its toll. When I have a big challenge to face, I try to break in down into smaller pieces and tackle them day by day and bit by bit (like that question “How do you eat an elephant?”)
Sending all my very best.
I just woke up from a very vivid dream about LO which I feel has set me back.
He said something hurtful to me last week and I have been avoiding him and doing okay. Dreams have a mind of their own, however, and I don’t like the way I feel when I have such intense dreams.
I am so grateful to be here and not fighting this battle alone.
My Dear Norma
I have to often sit on your posts because your LO’s treatment of you really angers me. So I say “Adam curb your temper.” He should just be glad I don’t know where you and him are geographically. Cause I’d pull the line from Bill Bixby/David Banner … “Don’t make me angry. You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.” Thank God for him I’m not Lou Ferrigino.
Dear Adam:
I am also glad you are not Lou Ferrigno. I can’t imagine what I’d do with you.
Thank you as always for your kindness.
I do wish I didn’t dream about LO so much. It’s a problem.
LO was not so much unkind as he was careless. He says things carelessly without realizing how much they hurt me. If I protest, he gets angry and accuses me of trying to make him feel guilty.
I really don’t see a solution other than to get over my limerence.
Norma,
“LO was not so much unkind as he was careless. He says things carelessly without realizing how much they hurt me. If I protest, he gets angry and accuses me of trying to make him feel guilty.”
So if you’ve told him that he hurts you … he knows. He’s choosing not to change the behavior. And then he turns it around to make himself out to be the injured party. Just something to think about.
To Marcia:
Thank you for your comments.
I try not to make excuses for LO.
I’m not attracted to him because he’s nice.
I’m attracted to him because he looks like Anderson Cooper.
ND,
“I’m not attracted to him because he’s nice.”
I laughed at this. I know the feeling. 🙂 “I’m attracted to you. I never said I liked you.” 🙂
Marcia,
““I’m attracted to you. I never said I liked you.” 🙂”
Have you ever actually said that to anyone? That could be the beginning of one very interesting conversation.
As Meatloaf put it,
“I want you (I want you)
I need you (I need you)
But there ain’t no way I’m ever gonna love you
…
I can’t lie (I can’t lie)
I can’t tell you that I’m something I’m not
No matter how I try
I’ll never be able
To give you something, something that I just haven’t got (whoa-oh)”
“Two Out of Three Ain’t Bad” – Meat Loaf (1977)
I was in college. The following year I started dating LO #1.
LE,
[“I’m attracted to you. I never said I liked you.” 🙂]
“Have you ever actually said that to anyone? That could be the beginning of one very interesting conversation.”
No. But I’ve thought about several men. 🙂 That says more about me than it does about them. 🙂
“The link to “Two Out of Three Ain’t Bad:” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hWWe-ts2s#ddg-play”
You always post this kind of stuff like you and I are vastly different in age. Like you’re schooling me. 🙂 We’re not. I’ve heard the song many times.
But no surprise that you’re posting a song from late ’70s. 🙂
The link to “Two Out of Three Ain’t Bad:” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hWWe-ts2s#ddg-play
I remember…
The link is for everybody else since you told me that you don’t click on links.
Brother
I think I had a panic/anxiety attack this morning. I knew all the stuff I needed to do today. Instead my mind literally took out my body. Vomiting, pains, hot flashes. I couldn’t manage to pick up my sorry ass and accomplish anything. I slept most of the day away. I knew I needed to be strong but I couldn’t. I hope I can tomorrow be the man, husband and father I need to be. I’m getting hit on some many sides of life that it feels impossible. But I’m going to double my efforts tomorrow. And be productive. It’s like I know what I need to do but something is blocking it. I’m sorry to throw this on you brother but I know I can talk to you and you will talk to me. So this song came in on my YouTube feed and I can relate.
In My Blood — Shawn Mendes
https://youtu.be/36tggrpRoTI?si=nZ7RM-EGyLzHXumu
But I am now listening to this cause this song always makes me happy. And reminds me of your LO too lol
Tight Fittin Jeans — Conway Twitty
https://youtu.be/Msl8cbjkKjQ?si=BJbYs7EILERUtLkf
Adam,
I’m sorry that you felt so bad the most of today. In the past 2 decades, I had a few panic and many anxiety attacks (never vomited but feeling bad nausea or sick stomach). So I can resonate with how you are feeling physically – aching, hot flashes, heart flutters, etc.
After learned Stoicism and IFS, my mind changed its previous mindset and began to watch and analyze what I was going through when they were happening. Gradually the increased mental awareness and knowledge, on whys physical symptoms, sharply reduced those symptoms. I still get mild depression, especially upon waking up (might caused by bad dreams), but no more panic or anxiety attacks at all.
From my perspective as an outsider, I could see/guess what might be happening with your “internal family members” and how you could use your Self to possibly ease your physical pains, while taking physical and mental rest as much as needed without reaching the bottles.
I’m not going to ramble on my Stoicism or IFS again, unless you really want to hear my intuitive guess on your situation.
I hope you’ll feel better soon. 🫂
I’ll show a lady magic clip, utterly amazing —
https://youtube.com/shorts/m75lgPRY4ZQ?si=dJdtka9IEjiPWCR8 — She changed clothes in 1 second
Only a season — https://youtu.be/yAchEj7Yg_4?si=yDdh712yvTMT3cmv
Brother
Have you had any luck finding work yet? The way I’m seeing it, you’re probably home now more than usual and seeing a lot of projects you want to take on. Since there are so many, you may not know where to begin. Which probably explains the panic attacks, hot flashes and the like. Not knowing where to begin can be overwhelming.
I have experienced this with Dads estate. There is so much to do over there, I never know where to begin, so I peck at little things, which doesn’t last long and then I give up because it feels like too much to do and I don’t like dealing with any of it. I literally have no help. Neither of my kids have the time or care. I know it all needs done but my heart is simply not in it. I want the house gone, but it isn’t even close to being that easy. Often I think if I was still married, I know exactly how helpful my Wife would’ve been in getting me through this stage, so then I feel more regret for letting her down, a failed marriage and what I now can’t get done. Throw in working full time and trying to find balance is often difficult because I’m physically beat at the end of the day. Which then adds more to not wanting to have anything to do that house. Or even physically being there. I’m probably best when I don’t think about it and just tackle stuff but it’s not always easy. So I totally get what you mean about the anxiety factor and finding it hard to get out of bed. Keep giving things your best effort because you seem like the type who is determined to get through this stage no matter what it takes. This mid-life crisis $#!+ really sucks. I get it. I never saw it coming. No wonder I became a limerent.
Thanks again for the music and for thinking of me. I think you sent me the Conway Twitty before. LO did look pretty hot in those jeans. Then again she could probably wear dish rags and still look like God’s gift to mankind.. 😂 Here’s one that recently showed up in my feed. I like it. It’s simple and the words could be applied to LO, LF or even NG. Really anyone I’d like to connect with.
Julian Taylor-Dedication
https://youtu.be/5IlUFdF9PuU?si=I2wqm2MjzF3cXGc9
Brother
I have drafted a resume today. I am going to have Momma look over it/proofread it before I apply it to my unemployment account. She knows better than I what is professional. I havent bet unemployed since 2011. So its a whole new ballgame for me. Between whats going on in the home and me looking for a job it has been one more seemingly defeat but yet progress to get to a better point in life.
Yeah I seem to get more overwhelmed by things I can do in the house than I can concentrate on. I got out of the house with the now running car and I still stalled out Momma’s manual in front of Walmart trying to go to the bank and get her medications and panicked.
I told Momma about Dr L and Mrs L’s new website and said if she wanted to join it would be a place for her and others to deal with what us limerents have done to our wives. I hope that she can find a place of safety there for what I have done to her.
You’ve been here for me brother and I greatly appreciate that. I know that our circumstances are different in our limerence episodes but I feel a commonality with you. Now much to Miss Snow’s chagrin I’m gonna have some vodka. Cause it is the only thing that can fix me.
Liked your song. Here’s one I can totally relate to …. and it’s a fun song. How can you not like a mariachi band in a song?
The Beer, The Wine, The Whiskey — Little Big Town
https://youtu.be/FDF0Y9KOloY?si=kQHnPaM2VcM5KNU0
[Sometimes I don’t know if I’m having a feeling]
Matthew Siegel
Sometimes I don’t know if I’m having a feeling
so I check my phone or squint at the window
with a serious look, like someone in a movie
or a mother thinking about how time passes.
Sometimes I’m not sure how to feel so I think
about a lot of things until I get an allergy attack.
I take my antihistamine with beer, thank you very much,
sleep like a cut under a band aid, wake up
on the stairs having missed the entire party.
It was a real blast, I can tell, for all the vases
are broken, the flowers twisted into crowns
for the young, drunk, and beautiful. I put one on
and salute the moon, the lone face over me
shining through the grates on the front door window.
You have seen me like this before, such a strange
version of the person you thought you knew.
Guess what, I’m strange to us both. It’s like
I’m not even me sometimes. Who am I? A question
for the Lord only to decide as She looks over
my résumé. Everything is different sometimes.
Sometimes there is no hand on my shoulder
but my room, my apartment, my body are containers
and I am thusly contained. How easy to forget
the obvious. The walls, blankets, sunlight, your love.
Peonies
Danusha Laméris
What are these strangers
sitting on the table in their ruffled
collars. They open, close, open,
emit the scent of cracked pepper
and honey. Magenta punctuation marks
at which to pause. Pink commas
against the green scrub.
I would trade ten goats for one whiff
of peonies opening in a vase.
An ancient proverb says
you should not let a woodpecker
see you plucking a peony
lest it peck out your eyes.
We are afraid of happiness.
Peonies are to loneliness
what wind is to the trees.
Are they animal? Mineral?
Vegetable? They move
as the sun moves. When I
brought them home
they were dark. Now,
a whisper, balletic tulle.
They are not diminished
even as they turn to smoke.
[there must be one thing you can’t have in order to be alive]
Em Frank
there must be one thing you can’t have in order to be alive
watching flowers open on youtube
I mean, my life is wasted on my life
requirement is simple
it takes a wound to
return to yourself
the new sky
is the same as the old one
its achy maw
its barbwire grip
people are whatever they are next to
that won’t remember them
a dumb desert
a broken open sign
whatever I love best
reminds me of something else
You’re an April Fool! (With an unavailable L🅾️…)
Fancy — Flames of Love: https://youtu.be/BWbqiO_vuhI?si=1A4fr3PfPLsYrYcG 💗
When you’re limerent, every day is April Fool’s Day.
Indeed!
Under the altered state of mind, limerent’s own 😵💫 desire subconsciously or consciously chooses every day as April Fool’s Day! 🪅
1. Breaking Your Own Chains — https://youtu.be/h4cMIELasfI?si=kPt_IEq_Ynz2V4e-
2. One Step Better Than Yesterday — https://youtu.be/ilXLQCat-QA?si=5hsU2HdSDdUgBmPg
3. Clap For Yourself, Nobody Else Has to — https://youtu.be/P7cvt-fQmiw?si=q432vqmuVCOkUXVG
4. Every Step a Lesson — https://youtu.be/OOQKmJpWXH0?si=vaFGM0Uh-duXq1J4
5. Peace Is a Choice I make | Healing & Inner Peace — https://youtu.be/PCGAhzr3-mQ?si=dEHIC1XcT6xmpi2A
6. Still I Shine — https://youtu.be/KRCtvAKzIaw?si=MBIJfDcsFdR29m6l
One year anniversary 🎉 of Longing 🆓 🐦🔥 , Limerence 🆓 ⛓️💥
I’m Already Enough — https://youtu.be/kFQ7qiqm6WA?si=gBqDmeF6rJzVKcr0
Imagination, envision won Waterloo inside you! 🐦🔥
Waterloo — https://youtu.be/Sj_9CiNkkn4?si=IDMXxmmeUuzaED46
LaR,
We got bumped. 🙂
“It was hard that her feelings weren’t as strong as mine and that she was willing to toy with me.”
How did she toy with you?
“Early on, thay adds layers that aren’t needed or helpful.”
Being in a car with someone is kind of intimate. It’s a small space. It’s enclosed.
“The mind plays tricks on us in the situation (we see what we want to see)”
Sounds like limerence. 🙂
Patterns matter here. “First time, shame on you. Second (or maybe third) time, shame on me”. And it depends how long you’ve known them. ”
I was really referring to new friendships. I was supposed to hang out with those two women again. Both bailed. It’s the rule and not the exception. I could go on about this topic for a while. These two women are just one example. It’s one of the reasons I was disappointed in the ending of my friendship with my male friend. He wasn’t flaky/unreliable. It’s rare.
“I could only muster the effort level for one at a time in that situation.”
I agree with you but in the early stages, I would never put my eggs in one basket. I was watching one dating coach’s video and he said not to overvalue a “Good morning” text from a guy. He’s probably sending them to a bunch of women. He’s checking off a box.
“It’s true. She almost actively placed herself there, and I have seen what I think is her taking a few steps to ensure nobody replaced her there when she saw potential for it (there never was- I really don’t want anyone else there).”
I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. I’m talking about something along the lines of what my last big LO said in the disclosure. (I’m paraphrasing.) He wasn’t sure how things were going to play out in the marriage and if they didn’t work out, he’d be contacting me. Short of someone saying something like that (and even that meant little, as he NEVER referred to it again) … I wouldn’t consider things “on standby.”
“She has some rare qualities that aren’t that well accepted by everyone. ”
It kind of sounds like you’re making excuses for boorish behavior. 🙂 Don’t hate me for writing that.
“A great quality of interacting with LO is that we don’t think the same way, but we can openly challenge each other (alone or in front of others) without it ever turning into hard feelings. If she openly disagrees with my views or vice versa, it never feels personal or like trying to correct, just two people saying “here is how I look at it – take it or leave it”. ”
That’s fine. Someone doesn’t have to have my exact opinions, and I don’t even mind joking around about it. I’ve had friends where we did things like get campaign signs and hang them in each others’ offices of candidates we both knew we hated. 🙂 But I will not entertain conversations with someone who is reading things like conspiracy blogs. It must be an informed conversation.
“You have the devil and angel talking to you on either shoulder about this – I can read that in your messages.”
Yep. There are two Maricas. I once had a co-worker tell me that when I first started a job I was very quiet … until the other Marcia popped out. 🙂
“Ok – this will sound harsh, but the same input leads to same output.”
I agree. I’ve been thinking the same thing.
“But you might not have to compromise on what you’re attracted to as far as you might think – just a bit.”
The metaphor is these new friends. Don’t hate me, but the people who are the most fun to hang out with tend to be flaky.
“Did you get / stay limerent for him after cutting him off?”
Yes. I hoped to run into and see him even though I wouldn’t interact with him. I remember one time he wasn’t there that day and even hovering by his desk with his stuff/personal effects felt charged. The good news … once we no longer worked together, I got over it almost overnight.
“I’m maybe not typical here, but an overly skinny gym bunny is not what I’m after. ”
What a lovely thing to write. 🙂 Really.
“I meant if you compared yourself to ‘his type’ as judged by the photos of his exes.”
They didn’t wear make up/do their hair. That was the only real difference.
[“Usually, I don’t argue about politics.”]
“I do like to, and my parents do even more.”
Oh, ok. Well, if your parents like to, then that’s fine.
“My parents’ views are ‘of their time’ and out of step in many ways even with my generation, let alone younger people.”
It’s not uncommon for older people (though I’m certainly not implying all older people are like this). It’s like they don’t pay attention to how the world has changed around them and they stay stuck in their worldview.
[“So “rebeling” to me is … you go to a protest. You’re part of a strike. You stand up for someone who’s getting bullied.”]
“Exactly. Stand up for what you believe.”
I also think it’s someone living their life how they want to. I don’t mean that they have to be vocal about it but someone doing their own thing. Not a properly ordered life.
[“I think that could have been funny. Depending on how you said it.”]
“It wasn’t taken that way 🙂”
The thing is … you’re going to notice. My friend used to call them “sexual giblets.” 🙂 If someone’s sexual giblets are hanging out. Better to say something and acknowledge it in a light-hearted way.
” Have you ever found nagging a turn-on?! Or know anyone who has? 🙂”
I don’t know exactly what we’re talking about. If I need you to do something that is major … like what I mentioned … getting that equipment for my job. I did not have the authority to order it myself and what I was using kept needing to be repaired. It was affecting my ability to do my job. Under those circumstances, no, I don’t care if he thought I was nagging him.
“The ‘wrong’ men always seem to get to be CEO. I am half-kidding but you get my drift.”
I totally understand what you are saying. 🙂 Sometimes I wonder how these higher ups get their jobs.
“If she ever wants to change her mind, she will make that clear. ”
Has that ever happened? A woman has said no or given some kind of vague answer and then circled back around and asked you out? It’s happened to me ONCE. He said no (I was the one asking first) and then he showed up months later with yes. But … as I’ve said … anything less than a yes is a no. I can’t stress that enough. Don’t try to read ANYTHING into the reason she gives for turning you down. I have literally pulled things out of the air that were not true. The mistake I made was thinking I owed someone an explanation. But in the moment, you’re trying to cushion the blow and you feel bad.
“I don’t know why people who don’t do the job ever think they know better than people who do.”
You’re preaching to the choir. 🙂
“And to benchmark against each other too. Do women ever do this about men at work?”
Do you mean compare one to the other? I don’t know if I’ve heard of that, but there’s usually a general consensus of what guys are the hot ones. And then if you have female friends in the company … you’ll call them up. “He’s on his way. He’s walking toward your department.” 🙂 And you know they’re putting their lipstick on. 🙂 Or if he’s talking to another department of women you don’t like … you’ll call up your friends and ask, “Why are they HOARDING him?” 🙂
“Empty vessels make the most noise, if you’ll forgive me another cheesy cliche 🙂”
I expected more. 🙂
“But what in her behaviour as I described it would tell him she didn’t want to take it any further?”
She was married. 🙂 Most of you partnered types love that line. If he was married, he really should have known that.
“I’m not following. Neither of *which* scenarios, and why did she not fit them?”
The first scenario: The class is just starting and she’ s considered attractive on her physical appearance alone. The second is that men get to know her over time and find her attractive or she becomes more attractive. Her charm, her personality, etc.
Marcia,
“We got bumped.”
I like it. Bumped from two coffeehouses in a row. I like the fact I was there at closing time. Reminds me of days when that actually used to happen 🙂
“How did she toy with you?”
Name dropping other orbiting guys – letting me know I was ‘in a competition’. Or stuff like saying she’d call or write to me and then not doing it.
[Patterns matter here.]
“I was really referring to new friendships. I was supposed to hang out with those two women again. Both bailed. It’s the rule and not the exception.”
I get your frustration. I was saying if they’re old friends it might make me pause before judging it too harshly, but sounds like it’s not the case here. With newer friends, a couple of flakeages and it becomes clear what is going on.
“It’s one of the reasons I was disappointed in the ending of my friendship with my male friend. He wasn’t flaky/unreliable. It’s rare.”
I hear you. It’s another reason I don’t want to shake LO – if she says she’ll do something, she then does it. Yes, I am probably pretzelling but there it goes.
“I was watching one dating coach’s video and he said not to overvalue a “Good morning” text from a guy. He’s probably sending them to a bunch of women.”
That makes me feel sick. Unless the woman is my SO, I’d overthink for ages before sending a good morning text to anyone. If people are just scattergunning them to tick boxes, I don’t like that.
“I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. I’m talking about something along the lines of what my last big LO said in the disclosure. (I’m paraphrasing.) He wasn’t sure how things were going to play out in the marriage and if they didn’t work out, he’d be contacting me.”
That was quite unkind of him to say – like dangling a huge carrot and expecting you to keep reaching for it.
“It kind of sounds like you’re making excuses for boorish behavior. Don’t hate me for writing that.”
I won’t. I’ve been through the debate enough times in real life about why I like her when others don’t. The difference is that I have scratched the surface and seen what’s underneath. The centre is soft. When she’s boorish, I know why she’s being like it. She hasn’t had an easy time with the main men in her life, so it’s mainly a defence behavior.
“Someone doesn’t have to have my exact opinions, and I don’t even mind joking around about it. I’ve had friends where we did things like get campaign signs and hang them in each others’ offices of candidates we both knew we hated.”
That’s fun. You can’t get that with everyone. I really like an exchange of different views without it feeling like anyone is actively trying to change or call out the other. When I was younger those exchanges were common and easy to find. Now you usually have to go through ages of sanitised exchanges before you can get to that.
“But I will not entertain conversations with someone who is reading things like conspiracy blogs.”
I have found that usually conspiracists have a valid initial point, but then feel the need to keep being controversial and so make 10 other invalid points that then make their initial point seem invalid. Example – I wasn’t down with us all locking ourselves in for months during Covid. I read all the people that expressed the opposite view, and they had a point – everyone healthy under about 80 had to get Covid for there to be population immunity and for us all to be able to move on (I had it three times quite quickly after we all we went back to work, as I’m sure is roughly true for most people). Our health folks here said that right at the start and got lampooned for it. Then the ‘conspiracists’ said it and were all proved right. But then all those people started saying Covid didn’t even exist. Ffs find a middle ground!!
“Yep. There are two Maricas. I once had a co-worker tell me that when I first started a job I was very quiet … until the other Marcia popped out.”
I think most of us are like that, but here under the cloak of invisibility it is easier to put it out.
“The metaphor is these new friends. Don’t hate me, but the people who are the most fun to hang out with tend to be flaky.”
I don’t have any answer. Don’t hate me in return.
“Oh, ok. Well, if your parents like to, then that’s fine.”
Well, they like to tell me what they think about politics more than debate it. In recent years though they seem rather lost about what’s going on, and say “that’s your generations problem now”.
“It’s not uncommon for older people (though I’m certainly not implying all older people are like this). It’s like they don’t pay attention to how the world has changed around them and they stay stuck in their worldview.”
You said earlier you were reluctant to ‘correct’ people (and I get it). So do we just quietly let that generation think they’re ok to think what they think?
“I also think it’s someone living their life how they want to. I don’t mean that they have to be vocal about it but someone doing their own thing. Not a properly ordered life.”
It took me at least 30 years to realise that was an OK mantra to live by.
“The thing is … you’re going to notice. My friend used to call them “sexual giblets.”
Love that phrase 🙂
“If someone’s sexual giblets are hanging out. Better to say something and acknowledge it in a light-hearted way.”
Well I think so, but SO didn’t agree.
[”Have you ever found nagging a turn-on?! Or know anyone who has? ”]
“I don’t know exactly what we’re talking about.”
I said work were paying me, you said SOs were having sex. I guess I meant the nagging I’d expect from a boss is different from what I’d expect from an SO.
“Sometimes I wonder how these higher ups get their jobs.”
I’ve had a few good bosses and many more bad bosses.
[“If she ever wants to change her mind, she will make that clear. ”]
“Has that ever happened? A woman has said no or given some kind of vague answer and then circled back around and asked you out?”
Not as directly as that. Both the ones I have been talking to you about recently (the cryer and the toyer) tried to circle back later with more direct approaches, but I don’t believe either would have been capable of sustained follow through.
“I have literally pulled things out of the air that were not true. The mistake I made was thinking I owed someone an explanation.”
To be fair, a lot of people do that.
[Do women ever do this about men at work?”]
“Do you mean compare one to the other?”
Rating systems. Marks out of 10. ‘Top five’ lists. Not in your head, out loud.
“She was married. Most of you partnered types love that line. If he was married, he really should have known that.”
Idk. Yes, but also, affairs happen. My other coworkers all read it like I did at the time – she was sending him signals.
“The first scenario: The class is just starting and she’ s considered attractive on her physical appearance alone. The second is that men get to know her over time and find her attractive or she becomes more attractive. Her charm, her personality, etc”
She was neither instantly attractive nor a ‘grower’?
LaR,
“I like the fact I was there at closing time. Reminds me of days when that actually used to happen 🙂”
That doesn’t happen in middle age. Everyone’s home by 10 p.m. 🙂
“Name dropping other orbiting guys – letting me know I was ‘in a competition’. Or stuff like saying she’d call or write to me and then not doing it.”
That’s crappy.
Your side … back in the day … would space out the calls and dates.
“I was saying if they’re old friends it might make me pause before judging it too harshly, but sounds like it’s not the case here. ”
Yes, but I’m only going to ask so many times if everything is ok before I give up.
“With newer friends, a couple of flakeages and it becomes clear what is going on.”
Yes, I’m just saying it’s not uncommon. The same happened with two other new friends I made late last year. Hung out (as a group) a couples of time and then the flaking happened. It’s disappointing and it makes me not want to bother.
“I hear you. It’s another reason I don’t want to shake LO – if she says she’ll do something, she then does it. Yes, I am probably pretzelling but there it goes.”
Yes, because you seem to have a decent number of other friends. And you’re partnered. I need cruising chicks. 🙂
“Unless the woman is my SO, I’d overthink for ages before sending a good morning text to anyone.”
Really? Just a good morning text? It’s the equivalent of saying hello. I’m just saying that it’s VERY low effort. And women think it means he’s really interested. True interest would be picking up the phone when he got off work and finding out how her day was.
“If people are just scattergunning them to tick boxes, I don’t like that.”
I think it can be a little disingenuous, but I would assume in the very early stages, the guy is dating around. And, frankly, he should be, as should the woman be. I’m not talking about sex. I ‘m just talking about going on dates.
“That was quite unkind of him to say – like dangling a huge carrot and expecting you to keep reaching for it.”
I don’t think for a second he expected me to sit around. But you were talking about your LO. Putting yourself on hold for anyone is a very stupid thing to do. But I’d need some kind of … verbiage before I did it (even subconsciously). You didn’t give the impression you’d done that with her.
“She hasn’t had an easy time with the main men in her life, so it’s mainly a defence behavior.”
That could describe a fair number of women.
“Now you usually have to go through ages of sanitised exchanges before you can get to that.”
I think in the US at least, it used to feel like, even if the two people were on opposing sides of the aisle, there would be some kind of common ground they could be reach. Now, it seems there are huge chasms. And you can’t have a reasonable conversation if you’re on opposing sides.
“I wasn’t down with us all locking ourselves in for months during Covid.”
I agree.
“Then the ‘conspiracists’ said it and were all proved right. But then all those people started saying Covid didn’t even exist. Ffs find a middle ground!!”
Or the government created it. I just can’t go there.
“I think most of us are like that, but here under the cloak of invisibility it is easier to put it out.”
I guess I meant … whatever person LO-lite drew out … I hadn’t seen her in years and I haven’t seen her since. And I’m wrestling with that.
“Well, they like to tell me what they think about politics more than debate it. ”
Oh, ok. Are they what we’ve talked about before? Very good at talking but pretty bad at listening?
I will say that my guy friend was a good listener. I don’t mean to make him some like a terrible person. Fundamentally, I didn’t like the way he handled the disclosure and post disclosure with me. And I saw sides of him I didn’t like. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have any good qualities. He does. Very smart and very funny.
“In recent years though they seem rather lost about what’s going on, and say “that’s your generations problem now”.”
I don’t know how old your parents are. Do you think it’s inevitable? To feel that way as you get older? I’m asking. I don’t know.
“So do we just quietly let that generation think they’re ok to think what they think?”
I’m not entirely sure what issues you’re referring to. You’re not going to change their minds but I think you can still say things here and there (in a non-confrontational tone) that point out any … ignorant thinking on their part. You don’t have to go along with what they say all the time, but “calling them out” probably makes them dig their heels in more.
[“I also think it’s someone living their life how they want to. I don’t mean that they have to be vocal about it but someone doing their own thing. Not a properly ordered life.”]
“It took me at least 30 years to realise that was an OK mantra to live by.”
Really? As I’m sure you’ve guessed, my life has not been properly ordered.
[“The thing is … you’re going to notice. My friend used to call them “sexual giblets.”]
“Love that phrase 🙂”
I do, too. 🙂
[“If someone’s sexual giblets are hanging out. Better to say something and acknowledge it in a light-hearted way.”]
“Well I think so, but SO didn’t agree.”
To be clear, I do NOT want a man I’m with to point out women he finds hot. I know some couples do that. I’m baffled by that. Good God, I’m not your buddy. But … given the circumstances that you described, I don’t see what you could do but laugh.
“I guess I meant the nagging I’d expect from a boss is different from what I’d expect from an SO.”
I was trying to point out that I think a woman is justified in nagging about the big things if the man isn’t taking care of them or botching them.
But I wasn’t sure exactly what you’re referring to. Socks on the floor? Dishes in the sink? Or that you didn’t pay the taxes on time last year and so she’s reminding you of it this year? The last thing seems reasonable.
“I’ve had a few good bosses and many more bad bosses.”
I can barely name more than two or three who were good.
“Both the ones I have been talking to you about recently (the cryer and the toyer) tried to circle back later with more direct approaches, but I don’t believe either would have been capable of sustained follow through.”
And that’s another thing people often don’t understand. That if people circle back around after being vague with answers or after being hot and cold … even if they’re consistent for a bit, it’s usually just a matter of time before they act flaky again. Because their interest wasn’t that strong to begin with. Or they’re just flaky in general.
[“I have literally pulled things out of the air that were not true. The mistake I made was thinking I owed someone an explanation.”]
“To be fair, a lot of people do that.”
Your side doesn’t sometimes get that. I just read a Reddit post by a guy who went on a first date with a woman. He asked her out again and she gave him the generic “I didn’t feel the necessary connection to move forward…” and he wanted to know what that meant. He went over and over how he gives things a chance to develop and why didn’t women and why did she let the date go on as long as she did … When he’ll never know exactly what she meant. Only that it’s a no-go.
“Rating systems. Marks out of 10. ‘Top five’ lists. Not in your head, out loud.”
We’ve definitely discussed guys we thought were hot. I don’t work in environments of hot dudes galore. Maybe there were a couple.
“Yes, but also, affairs happen.”
Ok. But look at this site. How many affairs have happened? And just from my own personal experience of interacting with partnered men and watching what goes on at other jobs … I ‘m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I would always err on the side of it being just a flirtation or something to do. Usually, it doesn’t mean anything.
“My other coworkers all read it like I did at the time – she was sending him signals.”
Yeah but when it came down to it, she wasn’t serious. I think that’s pretty common.
“She was neither instantly attractive nor a ‘grower’?”
Yes.
Marcia,
“That doesn’t happen in middle age. Everyone’s home by 10 p.m.”
Sad but true 🙂
“Your side … back in the day … would space out the calls and dates.”
Do you mean when they weren’t too keen?
I mentioned this before, but it was almost the accepted male dating logic of the 90s to “not seem too keen”. We had it drummed into us.
“I need cruising chicks.”
How about those ones who you bar-hopped with the other week? Or are they the ones who flaked? I don’t know their circumstances, are they single? If any of them are partnered, lower the expectations of how often they’ll be up for getting out. For most partnereds, a whole night out without the partner is basically an annual year event 🙂
“Really? Just a good morning text? It’s the equivalent of saying hello. I’m just saying that it’s VERY low effort. And women think it means he’s really interested.”
That’s why I wouldn’t send them – *unless* I wanted to communicate that I’m really interested (which in my position I don’t want to). It is a small thing but has a lot of meaning attached. I’m talking about just saying good morning with nothing else. If you get that from a guy – he’s definitely interested. Unless he’s a scattergunner.
“True interest would be picking up the phone when he got off work and finding out how her day was.”
Yes – but how far through dating would you need to be for that to feel comfortable and wanted? Genuine question (My 90s logic is hard to shake).
“But I’d need some kind of … verbiage before I did it (even subconsciously). You didn’t give the impression you’d done that with her.”
You’re correct in that there has never been verbiage like that. She could well have put all the other clues together, but it’s still not the same thing.
“I think in the US at least, it used to feel like, even if the two people were on opposing sides of the aisle, there would be some kind of common ground they could be reach. Now, it seems there are huge chasms. And you can’t have a reasonable conversation if you’re on opposing sides.”
I blame social media (bite sized information, echo chambers, mass hysteria) for this. I would say it isn’t quite so bad here (Brits are very big on politeness, so will still try a bit more to bridge the chasms) … but it is headed that way.
“I guess I meant … whatever person LO-lite drew out … I hadn’t seen her in years and I haven’t seen her since. And I’m wrestling with that.”
Yes I can get that – both sides of why you love and hate her reappearance 🙂
“Oh, ok. Are they what we’ve talked about before? Very good at talking but pretty bad at listening?”
They’re not terrible listeners, but on that sort of issue it is kind of this mindset: “we’ve been here longer than you, so we know more than you. You won’t still think like that when you get to our age”.
“I will say that my guy friend was a good listener … very smart and very funny.”
You wouldn’t probably have let him in as a friend in the first place if he didn’t have good qualities. And that probably makes the whole disclosure and handling of it seem worse – because you do actually miss elements of him as a friend.
“Do you think it’s inevitable? To feel that way as you get older?”
Pretty inevitable, yeah. There are already things where I feel like it. Like AI. The next generation are welcome to that. I’ll learn as much as I need to about it not to be disadvantaged at work, but no more – it’ll never excite me.
“You’re not going to change their minds but I think you can still say things here and there (in a non-confrontational tone) that point out any … ignorant thinking on their part.”
ITA. Make it clear what you don’t like and why, but there’s no point banging on and on about it or trying to make a confrontation of it. Educate if you can, but don’t shame.
[“It took me at least 30 years to realise that was an OK mantra to live by.”]
“Really? As I’m sure you’ve guessed, my life has not been properly ordered.”
Who gets to define what is ‘proper’ though? I often find the people whose lives aren’t linear have the more interesting stories. You have to live for yourself. When I was trying to be more linear, it didn’t work out, and I made big changes to a lot of the bits (job, place I lived, expectations of relationships etc).
“Socks on the floor? Dishes in the sink?”
Or that you didn’t pay the taxes on time last year and so she’s reminding you of it this year? The last thing seems reasonable.”
I find women’s brains (well definitely my SO’s brain) are wired differently to men’s – to think A LONG way into the future about what needs doing. And about a lot of things at once. I’m not the sort of person to always leave socks on the floor OR to forget to do the tax return … but I might only get round to thinking about the tax return a week or two before it’s due. I often think what needs doing now, or immediately next. I’m not always ready to think about stuff that’s months away. This can often be what I feel nagged about.
I have a phrase I often bring out “don’t worry, it’ll get done when it needs to”.
To be fair to her – her perspective would be that I often overburden myself, and she can see it coming and is trying to help me prioritise.
I’m really selling LTRs here, aren’t I? 🤣
“if people circle back around after being vague with answers or after being hot and cold … even if they’re consistent for a bit, it’s usually just a matter of time before they act flaky again. Because their interest wasn’t that strong to begin with. Or they’re just flaky in general.”
If you get to know someone a bit, then what you see in those early days isn’t going to be that far away from their true colours.
“He went over and over how he gives things a chance to develop and why didn’t women and why did she let the date go on as long as she did … When he’ll never know exactly what she meant. Only that it’s a no-go.”
No, you can never hope to reduce it all to science or logic in that situation, but some people really struggle with that.
“We’ve definitely discussed guys we thought were hot.”
I guess both tribes do it.
[“Yes, but also, affairs happen.”]
“Ok. But look at this site. How many affairs have happened?”
A few ‘dalliances’ but not a lot. I’d say the site is pretty unrepresentative because this is where all the barrierered ones end up. Almost my opening gambit when I started posting here was “I DON’T want to have an affair, so I’m here to figure out how to control all this mess in my head”. That’s what many people use LwL for.
“Yeah but when it came down to it, she wasn’t serious. I think that’s pretty common.”
Well, I’ve been schooled then because she looked dead keen on him. Though I couldn’t square it at the time because she is usually very positive about her husband and her life with him.
Sorry by the way that my replies have slowed – that will probably get worse before it gets better. For the next few days, we’re staying with family, so I’ve currently got little space to type this stuff.
LaR,
[“Your side … back in the day … would space out the calls and dates.”]
“Do you mean when they weren’t too keen?”
No, the ones who weren’t keen enough. IMO, if things are going well, over time, you would (and this is in the 90s) talk on the phone more often, go out more often. Things built. If he’s spacing out the calls/dates … you’re just an option. I’m not talking about the very first time you go out, but maybe you go out one weekend and then don’t see him/hear from him the next weekend.
“How about those ones who you bar-hopped with the other week? Or are they the ones who flaked?”
They’re the ones who flaked.
” I don’t know their circumstances, are they single?”
Both single. You won’t get a married/partnered woman who wants to hang out at night. It’s lunch at noon on a Saturday. If that sounds dull, it is.
“For most partnereds, a whole night out without the partner is basically an annual year event 🙂”
And why is that? Don’t you get bored hanging out with the same person? I don’t mean that you’re out cruising, but just to hang out with friends sometimes.
“It is a small thing but has a lot of meaning attached. I’m talking about just saying good morning with nothing else. ”
Yes, exactly what I’m saying. Just a “good morning.” That DOESN’T have meaning attached.
“Yes – but how far through dating would you need to be for that to feel comfortable and wanted? Genuine question (My 90s logic is hard to shake).”
Keeping in mind I am one person with one opinion … so with that guy I went out with … We were in communication maybe 15 days ? We messaged on the site and had a phone call pretty quickly, day 2 or 3 (several days before the first date). That was fine. Then we texted quite a bit until he fell off with the texting before the second date. If I were to do it again … not texting throughout the day (texting is a weak form of communication). Just maybe a daily check-in. A few texts back and forth after work. And then I think it would have been fine if he had picked up the phone in between dates one and two. Sometime in the second week.
“You’re correct in that there has never been verbiage like that. She could well have put all the other clues together, but it’s still not the same thing.”
I can usually tell when someone is interested. I have to be totally honest in that I don’t understand why that’s so hard to figure out. And I don’t necessarily mean the second I meet them but over time. But I’d have no way of knowing the depth or extent of their interest and if they intend to do anything about it … until they say something or do something.
“I blame social media (bite sized information, echo chambers, mass hysteria) for this.”
It’s the two things that always drive it: hate and fear.
“I would say it isn’t quite so bad here (Brits are very big on politeness, so will still try a bit more to bridge the chasms) … but it is headed that way.”
Don’t yell at me 🙂 … but I don’t get the royal family. The interest. The wanting to pay taxes to support them. All this fuss over Harry leaving.
“Yes I can get that – both sides of why you love and hate her reappearance 🙂”
I don’t hate her. I haven’t figured out a way to incorporate her … so that she doesn’ t pop out randomly. But too long without her … and I get very, very bored.
“They’re not terrible listeners, but on that sort of issue it is kind of this mindset: “we’ve been here longer than you, so we know more than you. You won’t still think like that when you get to our age”.”
Is it possible it’s true? I don’t know how I’ll feel when I’m older. Only how I feel now. I am shaped by my age, my generation, the time/place I grew up. And I won’t ever be able to rid myself of those influences.
“And that probably makes the whole disclosure and handling of it seem worse – because you do actually miss elements of him as a friend.”
Yes, but what I miss was the early part of the friendship. And I now question how much of his attentiveness to that friendship was actual friendship. So maybe that part of it would have been your garden-variety friendship (like with these flaky cruising chicks) had his interest been only friendship.
“There are already things where I feel like it. Like AI. The next generation are welcome to that. I’ll learn as much as I need to about it not to be disadvantaged at work, but no more – it’ll never excite me.”
AI creeps me out. I feel the same way in terms of the next generation. “Good luck with that.”
“Educate if you can, but don’t shame.”
And I will do that. Sometimes. Depending on the issue. I don’t ramble on. I don’t yell or get all riled up. My tone is pretty flat. I’m not going to argue over it. But I will point some things out.
“Who gets to define what is ‘proper’ though?”
Society. You know what it is. Don’t play coy. 🙂 Going to college, getting a good job, getting married, having kids, buying a house, dinner parties, etc. Some variation of that.
“I often find the people whose lives aren’t linear have the more interesting stories.”
I’m not necessarily advocating for one or the other. Both come with positives and negatives.
“I find women’s brains (well definitely my SO’s brain) are wired differently to men’s – to think A LONG way into the future about what needs doing.”
That’s why I’ve always said … you mean what you mean in the moment … but it doesn’t necessarily mean that what you said means anything the next day. 🙂 (I know that’s not what you meant, but what I’m talking about relates to the male way of thinking.)
“I have a phrase I often bring out “don’t worry, it’ll get done when it needs to”.
To be fair to her – her perspective would be that I often overburden myself, and she can see it coming and is trying to help me prioritise.”
And I wouldn’t want to do that. To have to help you prioritize. You’re a grown man. You’ve lived in the world. Gotten a job. Paid your bills, etc. I’m assuming you’ve been on your own at some point (not in an LTR) after leaving your parents’ house. I don’t write any of this flippantly, but if you say you’re going to take care of it … I’m handing you the folder (metaphorically speaking). I don’t want to think about it again.
“I’m really selling LTRs here, aren’t I? 🤣”
You’re not selling me on it. No. 🙂
“If you get to know someone a bit, then what you see in those early days isn’t going to be that far away from their true colours.”
Exactly. If they’re flaky in the beginning … that quality will come back to bite you in the ass again at some point.
“No, you can never hope to reduce it all to science or logic in that situation, but some people really struggle with that.”
I can see why he was confused. It was a first date that went on for … 3.5 to 4 hours. That seems like it would indicate interest. But you never know. Who knows what happened? Maybe an old boyfriend showed back up.
“I’d say the site is pretty unrepresentative because this is where all the barrierered ones end up. ”
I can only speak from my own experience and from watching other people. As I’ve written, I talked to a lot of men at that one job. It was part of the job. Talking to a lot of people. I was there for a while. It was a big company. And there were a number of men who were VERY flirtatious with me. Raunchy. And a very small percentage pushed for more.
“Well, I’ve been schooled then because she looked dead keen on him. ”
Doesn’t surprise me.
“Though I couldn’t square it at the time because she is usually very positive about her husband and her life with him.”
Sideage validation
” For the next few days, we’re staying with family, so I’ve currently got little space to type this stuff.”
Again, you’re not selling me on an LTR. 🙂
Marcia,
“IMO, if things are going well, over time, you would (and this is in the 90s) talk on the phone more often, go out more often.”
Yes but the build would often be slower and more cautious than now. The logic of not acting too keen always seemed odd to me. I get that a woman doesn’t want a man fawning around too much in the early stages. But acting less keen than you are is game-playing.
“And why is that? Don’t you get bored hanging out with the same person? I don’t mean that you’re out cruising, but just to hang out with friends sometimes.”
I was being a bit flippant when I said it’s an annual event. I have a fair bit of license to hang out with friends. To be fair, I need the space to do that, whoever my SO is, so I neve really put it up for negotiation. It’s true that it’s normally over by 10pm though 🙂
“Yes, exactly what I’m saying. Just a “good morning.” That DOESN’T have meaning attached.”
I’d never send a plain good morning *without* it having big undertones of meaning. Why do you think it doesn’t?
“And then I think it would have been fine if he had picked up the phone in between dates one and two. Sometime in the second week.”
That seems quite soon for that to me, but fair enough if it’s what you’d like.
“But I’d have no way of knowing the depth or extent of their interest and if they intend to do anything about it … until they say something or do something.”
As much as I felt LO kindled my interest at the start, now I think now that she enjoyed the validation it gave, but that a huge part of why she allowed it was the safety it offered her. She’s moral, I’m moral, we both knew it about the other. She knew I wouldn’t force it and I knew she wouldn’t. So we could both get the validation without the complication. That’s also why I think my feelings have cooled down. Once you truly realise nothing is going to happen and stop telling yourself stories, that removes the hope and uncertainty that fuels limerence.
“It’s the two things that always drive it: hate and fear.”
Fear has become a joke. I was taught as a child to fear strangers acting oddly in the street. NOT to fear someone who thought differently to me.
“I don’t get the royal family. The interest. The wanting to pay taxes to support them. All this fuss over Harry leaving.”
Only a small percentage here really get the Royal family either, but the media are hysterical about them. Between the media and the royals themselves and their inner circle, Harry was hounded out. The media wanted his head on a plate and got it.
If I was to be devil’s advocate though, and it does feel relevant right now … the only way not to have a president who can build too much power is to have a royal family. It does create a slightly different political culture when our PM has to go and explain himself to the King every week.
“I haven’t figured out a way to incorporate her … so that she doesn’ t pop out randomly.”
I like that as a way of framing your dilemma.
“Is it possible it’s true? I don’t know how I’ll feel when I’m older. Only how I feel now. I am shaped by my age, my generation, the time/place I grew up. And I won’t ever be able to rid myself of those influences.”
I think it’s inevitable they won’t be able to shift some of their views. I’ve got much more OK with that in the last few years. But – there is a bit of a misnomer in their thinking if they expect our generation to shift to think more like them. Just as they should be mostly left to their views, so should we to ours.
“And I now question how much of his attentiveness to that friendship was actual friendship.”
It’s really hard to say without being there. I do think it possible for someone to feel both things (friendship and attraction) for a person, and you know why I think it. But the gauge in this situation of yours would seem to be ‘what did he do after the disclosure?’. In the immediate weeks after it, what happened? Was he still friendly?
“I don’t ramble on. I don’t yell or get all riled up. My tone is pretty flat. I’m not going to argue over it. But I will point some things out.”
People have a better chance of cutting through with me if they don’t get all riled up. I want the reasoning properly laid out if they’re trying to convince me (you just may have noticed 🙂).
“You know what it is. Don’t play coy.”
I do, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with it or judge my own or anyone else’s life by those standards.
“That’s why I’ve always said … you mean what you mean in the moment … but it doesn’t necessarily mean that what you said means anything the next day. ”
I see where you’re going there, but for me this comes back to what I talked about before – sometimes I just need to do / deal with the things that are priority for that day, and then go again the next day with whatever those are then.
“And I wouldn’t want to do that. To have to help you prioritize.”
I’d contend it is ‘help’ I don’t always need, but like I said, there have been moments when I’ve been way over-burdened (some were my fault, some not).
“I’m assuming you’ve been on your own at some point (not in an LTR) after leaving your parents’ house.”
Yep. I have had several years on my own. I am domestically trained in all aspects better than the average man. I just don’t always think miles into the future.
“but if you say you’re going to take care of it … I’m handing you the folder (metaphorically speaking). I don’t want to think about it again.”
Fine by me. Hand the folder over and it will get done 🙂.
[“I’m really selling LTRs here, aren’t I? ”]
“You’re not selling me on it. No. ”
This stuff (finances, domestic chores etc) will always be there once any couple cohabits. It is going to take some working out. I’ve been having a little tongue-in-cheek moan here about the nagging element, but mostly it works well with my SO compared to my past attempts with people.
And one thing I’ll admit is that the LE has taken so much of my focus – a lot of managing and processing time. And so if SO noticed me being less ‘present’ during that time (even if she didn’t know why) … well I’m bang to rights about that.
“And there were a number of men who were VERY flirtatious with me. Raunchy. And a very small percentage pushed for more.”
‘Sideage validation’ as you put it about my coworker’s story is a good term for it. People differ in what they need that validation to be. For some, probably only a PA would do it. For more, just getting some mutual flirting going is enough.
LaR,
” But acting less keen than you are is game-playing.”
Totally disagree. That’s one of the biggest complaints women have. The guy was really into her at the start and then he pulled back a few weeks later. What happened was that he didn’t contain some of his enthusiasm and his behavior suggested he was all in. He was essentially making promises he couldn’t keep as he barely knew her. It’s confusing when someone does that. And selfish because the man doesn’t think how his behavior is coming across to her. He just wants the immediate validation and the feelz.
“It’s true that it’s normally over by 10pm though 🙂”
Oh, yeah, it’s over for single people at 10 p.m., too. Usually. It’s just that with married female friends, it’s over at 3 p.m. The husband is apparently incapable of making his own dinner or being in the house alone. I’m talking about people who have been married for decades. Whose kids are grown and gone.
“Why do you think it doesn’t?”
It’s literally a two-word text. So one of the people who cancelled on me sent me a “Happy Easter” text. Their first communication after cancelling and no effort on their part at rescheduling. Does that two-word text mean a damn thing? I don’t think so.
“That seems quite soon for that to me, but fair enough if it’s what you’d like.”
This from the man who doesn’t want to pretend at not being eager? Will the real LaR please stand up? 🙂 Two calls in the course of 14 days is too much? Wouldn’t you have called that much to schedule the dates back in the day? One call for the first date and one call for the second?
“As much as I felt LO kindled my interest at the start, now I think now that she enjoyed the validation it gave, but that a huge part of why she allowed it was the safety it offered her. ”
I can understand this if it’s someone I have no interest in things going further with. But that’s me.
” Once you truly realise nothing is going to happen and stop telling yourself stories, that removes the hope and uncertainty that fuels limerence.”
I don’t know how the feelings would even flame up if you knew from the beginning it was a no-go.
“Fear has become a joke. I was taught as a child to fear strangers acting oddly in the street.”
I meant hate and fear of people who are different. But that’s probably a conversation we should avoid. 🙂
“Between the media and the royals themselves and their inner circle, Harry was hounded out. The media wanted his head on a plate and got it.”
I think he wanted out. I think it has a lot to do with her.
“It does create a slightly different political culture when our PM has to go and explain himself to the King every week.”
But the royal family has no political power. They’re charisma vacuums sucking off the teat of the British people.
[“I haven’t figured out a way to incorporate her … so that she doesn’ t pop out randomly.”]
“I like that as a way of framing your dilemma.”
Do you have any suggestions? 🙂
“But – there is a bit of a misnomer in their thinking if they expect our generation to shift to think more like them. Just as they should be mostly left to their views, so should we to ours.”
I agree, but the younger generations feel the same way about us. Leave the old codgers to think how they want to, they’re saying to each other. 🙂 Their old music, their old ideas.
“But the gauge in this situation of yours would seem to be ‘what did he do after the disclosure?’. ”
Things were awkward.
“In the immediate weeks after it, what happened? Was he still friendly?”
I don’t really know what he was doing. He seemed to be making a point of telling me about other women who might like him. And making a point of taking a while to respond to my texts. And in one text conversation he asked me a few questions about what was going on with me while saying nothing about himself (I asked twice). And we’re not tight anymore/don’t hang out so that felt strange. I felt a bit exposed as he said literally nothing about himself. And of course took forever to respond to my texts. A conversation he initiated. I’m not impressed with how he’s handled things.
“I want the reasoning properly laid out if they’re trying to convince me (you just may have noticed 🙂).”
You? Reasonable ? 🙂
I mean … it depends on the topic. If you’re disclosing how hot you are for me, I’d prefer you leave Mr. Spock at home. 🙂
“I do, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with it or judge my own or anyone else’s life by those standards.”
But you have a narrative. Or at least part of one. An SO. If you don’t have a sliver of a traditional narrative, it makes people a little uncomfortable.
“Yep. I have had several years on my own. I am domestically trained in all aspects better than the average man. I just don’t always think miles into the future.”
There are some people who went right from their parents’ home to a shared home with a spouse, though it is less common today.
“Fine by me. Hand the folder over and it will get done 🙂.”
Good. We wouldn’t need to have to the conversation more than once. 🙂 As they say here in the states … “Get ‘er done.” 🙂
“mostly it works well with my SO compared to my past attempts with people.”
From what you’ve written, it sounds like you get along well.
“For more, just getting some mutual flirting going is enough.”
I just don’t get that. I’m sorry. One time I was hanging out with a group of people and this guy started flirting with me. His girlfriend was right there. She said, “When he drinks, he’ll flirt with a tree.” It was funny. That’s about how seriously I take fliration.
I spent about two hours hanging out with LO yesterday.
My “exposure therapy” seems to be going okay. I repeated a story that I had told LO about three years ago, and he didn’t remember it at all.
This is helpful to me, because it was a pretty major event, and when I first told LO, I felt there was some sort of “bond” between us. To realize now that he doesn’t even recollect it at all–that reinforces for me that whatever is going on between us is actually mostly just stuff I tell myself that is not real.
We had a good time, but I am paying close attention to the things which bother me. His elderly mother seems to be having increased health problems, but he is plowing ahead with re-listing his home and moving to the other side of the country, potentially dragging her with him.
I am not sure if I hate this about him because he’s being inconsiderate to an 89-year-old woman who is completely helpless, or if it’s because I feel personally snubbed. Probably both.
Hello everyone! Hope that all of you are doing great. I have not been on the site for a long time now, and thought of updating my LwL story here. Things are going pretty well for me, if I may say so. LO has now moved away to a different work place, phew. I thought I would take it hard, but it was not so bad actually. I do end up thinking about her, my mind does wander and replays all those times she validated my behavior, but I do not feel too sad about it. Will I ever stop thinking about her? I don’t know, but for now, I just watch these feelings come and go.
Things are going well for me professionally, and also with SO, so this is also helping me march along the recovery path. The urge to check her out on social media is also diminishing. To sum up, I feel much better now and my mind is much more calm than, say, 6 months ago. Will come back to update again soon, hopefully, feeling even better. Thanks all for listening.
Hi ABCD,
glad to see you are still continuing on a positive path. I think her moving away from your workplace will do the job perfectly fine in your case, it already does, it seems.
All my best wishes!
To ABCD:
I am glad you are doing so well. Your progress is an inspiration to me.
Hi! I’m new here. I’m not a dancer, but this topic is interesting to me because my own experience of limerence arose in part because of a shared connection to music.
Here’s my story.
LO and I connected on a trip ten years ago, when we were both in our 20s. I felt all the classic symptoms of limerence: a sense that they were the one, that the universe had cracked open and everything suddenly made sense, and that I was, for the first time, fully seen. A huge part of that connection was our shared love of music and performing. Music was so essential to both of us…to feel a sense of mutual respect for each other on that level was deeply gratifying. We only had a few days together, and during that time it felt like my feelings were reciprocated. We kissed, swapped songs, and talked about our connection. Unfortunately, the timing wasn’t right. At the end of those few days, we went back to our lives. We texted for a few weeks. Even though we lived in different places and had different goals, I held out hope that it could work out. They eventually stopped replying to my texts. I was crushed, not only by that treatment but by the thought that I could have such an intense connection with someone and it could just end.
A few months later, I connected with my now husband, and we’ve been together since then (9 years). I was not limerent for him, but I did feel a sense of groundedness and safety with him that I had not felt with other partners. We are kind and loving to each other and have built a life together that I value. I am proud of what we have achieved and feel grateful to have such a reliable partner. At the same time, we’ve consistently struggled with our sex life, and I do not feel the intensity of connection I felt with LO.
A little over a year ago, LO reached out to me out of the blue. They’d texted me a couple of times since our time in person together, but we’d never had an actual conversation. Before they reached out, I’d been thinking about them. Not a lot, but once in a while. And the thoughts had been more present in the months leading up to our contact.
We decided to address the connection we felt all those years ago to try to bring some resolution to it. I thought this would be helpful. And it was, at first. Eventually, they expressed regret that they hadn’t pursued me. And I expressed the devastation I felt when they stopped texting me all those years ago. It suddenly made it feel like LO had been a possibility all along, and that I had missed out on it, even though that wasn’t true–they were, in every way, unavailable to me back then. Nevertheless, I started to feel intensely anxious (I’m already an anxious person, but this was unlike anything I’d felt before). My chest was burning, I was having trouble sleeping, and I was starting to fantasize about LO. Fantasies about dating, falling in love, having sex, and being together. The anxiety eventually became untenable. They expressed anxiety as well, and we decided to stop speaking. Three weeks later, they were back out of my life. We have not had any contact since.
The year+ since then has been almost pure agony. After ending contact with LO, I almost immediately started to feel intensely doubtful about my relationship with my husban, panicking I made the wrong choice by marrying him. Unsurprisingly, our already challenging sex life disappeared altogether. My already low libido completely bottomed out. I stopped enjoying anything in my life or having any sense of hope or wonder about anything. I was thinking about leaving my marriage constantly to seek out LO or simply living alone. I just wanted to exit my current reality so badly.
Recently, I’ve achieved some relief through my discovery of Dr. L’s research on limerence, learning about ROCD, and engaging in somatic and mindfulness meditation. I’m starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. However, this continues to be the hardest period of my life so far. Part of what’s hard is that letting go of LO feels like letting go of an essential part of myself, of my dreams and my desire. And LO is so tied to what I love more than anything–music. What if I’m never able to connect with music the way I used to without feeling sucked into this spiral with LO? The thought of that makes me feel truly desperate. It also reinforces the idea that LO is “the one” and I’ve missed out on something unique and precious.
My husband has been great and is doing his best to be understanding and patient, but it’s agony feeling like I’m being unfair to him. I have less feeling for LO now, and less assuredness that we’re “meant for each other,” but I still have an intense desire to run away instead of working through this and trying to fully understand it, or at least allow the feelings to subside before taking action. I have no sense of what I want, no clarity or contentment about anything I thought would be clear at this stage in my life. Any insight or encouragement you are able and willing to offer would be so appreciated. Thank you for reading.
You will get through this, NT, but it will be hard. What do you want your future to look like? My LO3 plays a game with his clients where they “fast forward life’s movie” to see where their choices will take them. If you continue to pine over your LO, what does your future look like? What happens if you pour yourself into your marriage and you work to regain your libido?
Your LO is not your soulmate. He is a man who triggers feel-good hormones in you. There are other ways to trigger feel-good hormones.
Best wishes!
Thank you, Lovisa, for taking the time to read my story and for the encouragement.
To NT:
Thank you for sharing your interesting story.
Have you considered couples therapy? Would your husband be up for it?
Thank you, Norma. Yes, we have, and I think it’s a wise suggestion. I appreciate you taking the time to read my story and weigh in.
“My husband has been great and is doing his best to be understanding and patient, but it’s agony feeling like I’m being unfair to him. I have less feeling for LO now, and less assuredness“
I told my wife the day I found LwL about limerence. She has stood by my off and on battle for 5 years now. The limerence has been much more tame in the last 2 years or so. I look at her now, sleeping, and realize this is the woman that stands by me, not LO that hasn’t contacted me once since she left the job 4 years ago. I hope that you and your husband can at least find a resolution together.
As regards to a sex life … ours disappeared with my disclosure of limerence to my wife. I can’t say I blame her. I just take it day to day. She may forgive me but I know she’ll never forget what I did to her.
Hi Adam, thank you for sharing that and for your encouragement. Your realization about your wife is beautiful, and I often have similar thoughts about my husband.
I’m wishing for healing and contentment for both of you.
Hi Adam,
It sometimes breaks my heart to read your posts. “She may forgive me but I know she’ll never forget what I did to her.” As the SO of a limerent man, I would agree that she’ll probably never forget about your LE. But was it really something you did to her? I doubt that there was any intent on your part to hurt her. Of course, that does not mean that there was no impact on her, but your lack of malicious motivation should be part of how you and she view the LE.
Do you think your sex life “disappeared” because Momma is angry and hurt? I imagine that’s part of it, but I suspect a lot of it has to do with the enormous guilt you seem to carry. You made a mistake by allowing feelings to develop for LO. But you’re human and deserving of grace and forgiveness. Most of that forgiveness has to come from within you, I think. And you both could use some joy and passion. Five years is a long time to live without them.
I had a brief interaction with LO last night. He was rude. What else is new?
I am grateful that “exposure therapy” seems to be working.
However, I am filled with self-loathing due to the fact that LO’s bad behavior seems to be the ONLY thing that continues to make me want to distance myself from him.
Does this mean I have ZERO self-discipline? The thought of that is discouraging.
I guess I should be grateful for whatever works.
Dear Norma
No it’s not a lack of self-discipline. In hindsight I’ve realized that to some degree LO might have taken advantage of my kindness to her. I hate admitting it to myself. In limerence she was the perfect woman.
It still really upsets (and that’s the kind adjective) the way your LO treats you. You certainly deserve better than him. And I’d take a swing at him for you if I ever saw him.
But yes, sometimes seeing the worst in our LO’s can be a teaching lesson. And maybe that’s the key. Not necessarily devaluing our LO’s but seeing through the idealization we have for them can help us move on past them.
Morgan was always so sweet, kind, appreciative and all smiles. But maybe that’s cause she knew that’s how she could get to me. What I perceived as “positive” feedback could have been manipulation.
I found us a new song, my dear Norma and it reminds me of you…
Blue Ain’t Your Color — Keith Urban
https://youtu.be/SoIKv3xxuMA?si=GNzykxSp-UrVO7qz
Dude needs to shave. Ugh soul patch. lol
Dear Adam:
Thank you for that song–I really like it! I don’t think I have ever heard Keith Urban sing before. He has a beautiful voice. Agree about the soul patch–ugh.
I don’t even idealize LO anymore. I remember I used to hear the song “Creep” by Radiohead and I’d think of him, putting myself in the devalued position. I heard the song again yesterday, and I found myself thinking, “HE’S the creep–I’ve been more than good to him. Better than he deserves.”
Almost all of LO’s energy goes into working and dealing with his very high-maintenance house. It seems that he much prefers architecture, gardening and decorating to his relationships with people. That certainly would explain why he has not had a romantic relationship last more than five years. I don’t think he puts much energy into the other person. After a while, they get exhausted and leave. I also need to get exhausted and leave.
If I don’t admire LO much anymore, I fail to understand how I could still be limerent for him. I do think I’m about 75% over it, but I don’t think I have made any progress in months. Wishing it would go faster. His unkindness helps. The problem is, when he’s nice to me, then I melt all over again.
Thank you for your comments. I am always thrilled to hear from you.
ND,
When is he moving? 🙂
That’s going to be your best bet for getting over the LE. Because what will probably happen is that you may keep in touch when he leaves, but the communication will become more and more infrequent until it peters out completely. I’m sorry to be that blunt but that’s usually what happens when friends move away.
Now, you could maintain communication if he has some reason to come back and visit after he moves away (he has close family or friends in the area and you would be included in the list of friends to visit) or the friendship is strong enough that he would come back into town just to visit you. The latter has happened to me (I’ve gotten on planes to go across country to visit a friend) but it’s rare.
To Marcia:
I have no idea when LO is moving! He took his house off the market last December with the intent of re-listing one month later so that it would go to the top of the listings. But guess what? It’s been four months and he got into a fight with his agent and is in the process of choosing a different one. So–off the market for the time being.
Meanwhile, his elderly mother is EXTREMELY ill, and I hate him for even contemplating dragging that poor woman all the way across the country to a freezing climate where she knows no one.
I am sure we will lose touch when he moves. I am positive you’re right about that, and I have accepted it, and that it’s for the best.
However, getting from here to there may take a lot longer than he realizes. For such a smart man, he does not seem to understand that his house is a White Elephant type of home that most people don’t have a use for.
The house was on the market for five months last summer and fall. Only two or three people looked at it, and he got no offers. Once people see it, they realize how impractical it is.
One of his biggest character flaws, in my opinion, is that he needs to live in a home that looks like it belongs on the cover of an architectural magazine.
He has made tremendous sacrifices to have this in his life, and it doesn’t even make him happy.
Thank you for your wise comments.
I’m going to be frank. I don’t know that exposure therapy is working. You’re still posting variations of the same comments (your frustration with him) and you’re still fixated on him.
What happens is there’s a gap between what you intellectually know to be true and what you’ve accepted fully, on an emotional level. And I personally think that’s what happens to a limerent who keeps the LO in their life. (I know a lot of posters will disagree. :))
Now, I’m NC. I won’t tell you that full acceptance happens immediately. I’m still working on it. But with this LE at least … self-preservation trumped the limerence feelings.
To Marcia:
Well, you could be right. But I have two choices: NC, which seems to make me worse, or limited exposure where he can be counted upon to behave badly.
When I have no contact with LO at all, I forget how snappish and irritable he is. When I have some contact, I am bound to get hit in the face with it.
Perhaps someone else could handle this better, but I am doing the best I can.
“Well, you could be right. But I have two choices: NC, which seems to make me worse”
Well, yes, NC is hard. It’s like completely changing your diet from a bunch of factory-made, chemical-ridden, hyper-palatable junk food to something healthy and natural. It’s a big adjustment.
“or limited exposure where he can be counted upon to behave badly.”
But you’ve seen the bad behavior many times. You know what to expect. 🙂
Can you get angry at him and maybe enjoy pulling back? Why should he get your company and your time and your friendship when he’s not very nice?
To Marcia:
I am actually feeling very angry with him at the moment, and have no desire to contact him.
Dame Marcia
Take it easy on Miss Norma. Just cause her LO is an a$$hole doesn’t mean it’s her fault. She’s just trying to cope. I know, I know it’s my savior complex. You know I have a great deal of respect for candidness. You put it to me at the start. I’d better duck out. Miss Snow isn’t gonna like my drunk posting.
Adam,
“Take it easy on Miss Norma. ”
I was taking it easy on her.
But I can shift it to you if you want. 🙂 In your case … from what you recently posted … I don’t see any evidence that your LO did anything to take advantage of you and your kindness. Now, I haven’t read all of your posts. So maybe you wrote something I didn’t catch. But it sounds like she was a co-worker who was professional with you. And you had a pleasant, friendly, albiet working relationship.
“I know, I know it’s my savior complex”
It doesn’t work that way. 🙂 No one is coming to save us. You, me, anybody.
Where is my boyfriend? 🙂 OMG … new photos of Sabrines. With a dark wig. He’s … um … probably indisposed at the moment. 🙂
Dame Marcia
You are right. No one is here to save me. I’m one drink away from it. But I can try and save those that mean to me; Miss Norma.
To Adam and Marcia:
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
Being able to talk about this is very helpful.
ND:
I’m not trying to be hard on you. I’d just like to see you tell your LO where to to go. 🙂
Here’s another of his Miss Norma. Momma played it for me a long time ago and it ended up being the first modern country song to ever be saved on this ole Yankee’s playlist lol
Female — Keith Urban
https://youtu.be/ChF_ypmiIs8?si=Pr91XjZCUxpj7axd
PS sorry for being ornery with you last night Dame Marcia
To Marcia:
I would much rather be angry with LO and actively avoiding him, than feeling sad and mushy, which is how I get after too much NC.
I have changed my schedule so that I no longer bump into him at Starbucks, which is helping.
To Adam:
Thank you for that wonderful song. Great way to start my day.
Adam,
“PS sorry for being ornery with you last night Dame Marcia”
I appreciate the apology but you’re fine. 🙂
ND:
“I would much rather be angry with LO and actively avoiding him, than feeling sad and mushy, which is how I get after too much NC.”
I prefer being angry, too. Anger can be a powerful motivator. It helps me put up some boundaries. To tacitly say (to the LO): “What you’re doing isn’t good enough. You won’t be getting as much access to me.”
The long-term goal is to replace the anger with indifference (which can happen). But in the short-term, I think anger can help.
To Marcia:
I would LOVE to be indifferent. But anger is the best that I can come up with for the time being.
Thank you again for your comments. I really appreciate being able to discuss these things.
ND:
“I would LOVE to be indifferent.”
I’m not there yet with the current LO but I am with all my previous LOs. I might think of some of them fondly from time to time … but then I suddenly remember the crappy part of the LEs … and I think: I’m good. I don’t need to revisit that. 🙂
To Marcia:
I just re-watched “The Devil Wears Prada” for the first time in many years. This time, I liked it less than I did previously, because it reminded me of LO. The pretentiousness around fashion is very similar to LO fussing over details of furnishings.
I guess the movie is supposed to be funny, but there’s a lot of cruelty involved. If you don’t look and act a certain way, you are ostracized. Trying to keep up with the right kind of look is exhausting.
LO’s obsession with fussy details is also exhausting.
I find so much fault with him that I am at a loss to explain why I am still limerent for him.
“Where is my boyfriend? 🙂 OMG … new photos of Sabrines. With a dark wig. He’s … um … probably indisposed at the moment. 🙂”
Marcia
I’m still here. It’s been a very challenging week. Just been lurking in the comments. Brother Adam keeping you in line I see.. 😆
I saw the Sabrina wig. At least I hope its just a wig. I don’t really like it, although it does make her look almost Latina-ish. I don’t know, I just prefer her blonde. Probably because she reminds me so much of LO. Especially in some facial expressions I’ve seen. Plus those blue eyes knock me on my a$$.. 🥰
MJ,
“Brother Adam keeping you in line I see.. 😆”
Never! He’s not mean enough. 🙂
“I don’t really like it”
I didn’t like it, either. Especially the short, curly, dark-haired wig. It’s a grandma haircut.
I’m watching a horrible TV movie from the ’90s (I’m guessing) with the mom from “Growing Pains” and Gregory Harrison from “Trapper John MD.” I’d forgotten how damn hot he is. 🙂
To Marcia:
I am finding that my anger is increasing rather than decreasing.
I don’t think I have ever felt so negatively toward LO. I don’t exactly know what caused it. Probably just an accumulation of small grievances over a three-year period.
It’s no one particular thing. LO hasn’t been unusually unkind recently, just his usual self.
Something reminds me of my own behaviour and I learned something very important recently: I have had enough „exposure therapy“ and you know for sure that you also suffered enough. Getting in touch with him are always toxic „drops“ for your wellbeing. Stop it now, NC, it will hurt for a while before it is getting better but if you move on like before it is going to get worse.
Dear Norma
I am “that guy” that likes women’s fashion more than most men care about. Not fads or designer names, but just women’s fashion in general.
Before Momma had to have a metal pin put in her ankle due to an injury I probably bought 80% of the 40 something shoes she has now that I cannot bring to donate or sell. Too many memories in them.
Now I usually don’t actually buy her any clothes because I don’t understand women’s clothes sizes. But way back for our 10 year anniversary I bought her a purple/lavender cheongsam and took her to a really nice hibachi restaurant. She still has it. She looked so damn sexy and beautiful in it. Made it distracting for me to get through night and get back home. 😉
I’ve also bought most of the, probably 60 plus nail paints and related products that we have. I used to paint her nails and toes all the time.
With the renovations getting done and contractors coming in and out, once they get done (hopefully next week) I’m thinking about asking Momma to paint her nails and toes again with one of my favorite pair of flat sandals she can still wear and take her out on a date. Dunno how good my painting skills still are, since it’s a long while. But I’d like to try.
To Adam:
Thank you for telling me that story. I hope your plan goes swimmingly.
I find it charming that you paint your wife’s nails. I have never had a man do that for me.
“I have never had a man do that for me.”
And I’m ok with that. 🙂 Feet are not sexy. There are people who have nice feet but most don’t.
I’m of the mindset to show off what I have and hide what I don’t. Thus, I keep my hooves covered. 🙂
To Marcia:
I have little tiny feet that men have found charming. I wear a size 5 shoe, which is a pain, but men have always liked my feet.
Still no takers on the nail painting, though.
Norma,
“I have little tiny feet that men have found charming. I wear a size 5 shoe, which is a pain, but men have always liked my feet.”
Then I give you permission to wear sandals. 🙂
But, as a general rule …
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qi4KeAKhid0
The things I’ve gotten compliments on … well, I can’t show off in public. 🙂 HA! I’m in one of those moods today.
To Marcia:
Even LO likes my tiny feet, and he rarely pays a compliment.
He wears a size 13 shoe and the contrast is amazing.
With the weather changing, I’m seeing more Dudes in flip flops and open toed shoes again. Which should rightly be outlawed. Only Women are allowed to do this and should be encouraged.
The only exception men get for this is at the water park or beach.. It’s a good thing my kids are grown, so I don’t have to go there now.