The stimulus for this post is another nugget of wisdom from the coffeehouse. Adam raised the following issue:
I could forgive my wife much easier for an emotional affair than a sexual one, even if it was only one time. Emotional affairs are easier to fall into and before you know it you’re in deeper than that kid’s horse in Neverending Story. A physical affair is a cold and calculated decision.
Adam
That struck me. I would feel the same. As a limerent, it’s easy to understand how you can slide deeper into an emotional connection through naivety – simple ignorance of the fire you’re playing with, and the dangers of person addiction. A physical affair is much more of a clear, plain line. You can’t unwittingly have sex with someone. No one is that naïve.
That brings us back to the perennial issues of culpability, blame, betrayal, forgiveness, and morality. I may be wrong, but I think most people do consider motive as important for determining guilt – foolishly underestimating your vulnerability does seem less of a betrayal than impulsively throwing away fidelity for a hook up.
Clearly, though, there is more to it. In counterpoint:
I was talking about a physical affair that doesn’t get emotional. I’d prefer that. Than an SO be obsessed with someone else for years on end.
Marcia
An emotional affair might be easier to fall into more innocently, but if it carries on, it could end up causing more damage to a relationship than a one-night stand.
Would you rather have a partner succumb to a moment of lust or to months of limerence?
Not an easy question to answer . If the limerence is being battled as a emotional trial by the limerent, then it’s like being married to an addict. If the desire to recover is there, it’s easier to be supportive. But, if the limerence is being minimised or secretly indulged, it’s a different matter. Most complex of all might be limerence that manifests as a chaste admiration for the LO.
Imagine being married to someone who has a “Lancelot complex” for an idealised LO – the Guinevere they serve with undying devotion. OK, there’s no sexual contact, but how would it feel to know that they have elevated someone else to such exalted status? Even if it isn’t overt adoration, having a partner who drops everything to rush off and rescue their LO whenever they are in trouble would be psychologically taxing – especially if they are less responsive when you need help.
Alternatively, perhaps the limerence isn’t so noble. Maybe your partner would like to have formed a full relationship with the LO, but they were unavailable or rejected your partner. In some cases, the limerent obsession can precede a marriage, leaving the spouse to discover the secret after the wedding, and leaving them plagued by the thought that the limerent married them but wanted LO.
For others, the idea that their partner might be pining for an old flame is not nearly as over-arousing as the thought of them being physically intimate with someone else. Imagining their partner enjoying an act of sexual infidelity makes them almost physically sick, and taints their feelings about the relationship irrevocably.
The individual nature of betrayal
The obvious conclusion from all this “what if?” rumination is that people differ in what distresses them the most.
This banal observation does nevertheless hide some wisdom about how to manage unwanted limerence, and how to recover if it has damaged your relationship. What it reveals is that our insecurities determine our vulnerabilities, and so the forms of betrayal that affect us most powerfully reveal our deepest fears.
Some of these insecurities will be hardwired in – sexual jealousy and fear of abandonment have obvious evolutionary significance – but others will be more personal. The awful first love affair that left you paranoid about your attractiveness. The free-love advocate who made you ashamed of your jealous feelings. The strict parent who punished any hints of sexual behaviour. The discovery of pornography at too young an age. The neglectful parent who was indifferent about what you were up to.
Our subconscious attitudes to love and sex are formed by these haphazard influences, and so our psychological vulnerabilities around betrayal will be idiosyncratic, and largely irrational. It’s likely we won’t understand them ourselves – we will just discover them when the awful hot rush of adrenaline and cortisol overwhelms us in a moment of betrayal (even if imagined).
A key part of purposeful living is learning to spot your own triggers. It might take years of therapy to get to the bottom of how those triggers developed, but it is enough of a step forwards to simply recognise that they exist. “Ah, I get really triggered when my husband flirts with other people.” “I get really triggered when my wife works late without telling me.” Building that self-awareness about your particular hot button issues allows you to anticipate the circumstances in which you will be overstressed.
Communication versus rumination
Another big advantage of developing self-awareness about your vulnerabilities is that you can communicate them. Even if your partner doesn’t relate to the emotions – because they have different personal triggers – they should be able to grasp the principle that certain things they do can aggravate your raw nerves.
Again, cultivating honest communication skills is a keystone habit for purposeful living. There isn’t a right or wrong opinion about betrayal. It’s not enough to convince yourself that emotional or physical affairs are worse, you need to understand your partner’s position too. That’s how partnerships work.
Being open about what triggers you, listening carefully to what triggers them, and then working together to get over the irrational fears (“I don’t like it when you are smiley and friendly with other men at parties”) and to respect the reasonable boundaries (“Your texts with her are much too intimate for a co-worker”) is the best way forward.
Open communication can also protect against escalation of fears. When we aren’t so aware of our personal sore-spots it’s easy to torture ourselves with a subconscious narrative crafted from our worst fears.
- He’s working late again
- I bet she’s there with him
- They’re probably laughing about me sitting at home like a chump
- In fact, they’re probably at it right now
- His hands are on her body…
If fear leads you straight to the worst case scenario, your partner becomes the enemy. You don’t collaborate with enemies. You protect yourself against them. You keep your intel close to your chest. You set traps for them.
This leads, somewhat inevitably, to more alienation.
Don’t keep fears secret in the mistaken belief you are biding your time or being cautious. Communicate.
Moving forward
There is no objective answer to the question of whether an emotional or physical affair is more damaging for a relationship, or easier to forgive. Affairs are always bad. A long running physical and emotional affair is obviously the worst case scenario, but aside from that we all have our own personal red lines.
Partnerships are all about cooperation, and so the key principle when making sense of your own feelings about betrayal, and assessing the quality of the relationship, is honesty. If your partner is not willing to discuss their views on fidelity openly, tries to argue about how you should feel about any indiscretions, or says one thing and does another, you have problems that go beyond their behaviour towards other people. An unwillingness to work together is a sign of emotional detachment.
Cultivating self-awareness and honest communication will also, ironically, protect you against the scenario that opened this post. It’s far harder to naively wander into the swamp of sadness and get sucked under by limerence if you are aware of your emotional vulnerabilities. If you don’t habitually keep secrets from your spouse, it’s far less likely that either of you will be blindsided by infidelity.
Purposeful living really does liberate you from both subconscious desires and subconscious fears.
You’ll still feel them, but you can at least make sense of them.
I had an LO years ago who was basically an FWB/sex partner. Of course, I wanted much more because he was an LO. He would occasionally have sex with other women, and he was kind enough to tell me. (I write that sarcastically.) I had these images of him in my head with these other women. It hurt and it wasn’t fun. But far worse was hearing about the somewhat recent ex-fiancee, a person with whom he was no longer in contact and with whom there was no chance of reconciliation. But obviously he loved her. And she still hung in his mind. She was the one who ended things.
The randos posed no real threat; the ex-fiancee did.
I also think there is a difference (as a general rule) in how men and women view cheating. I’d say men are more affected by physical cheating, women by emotional cheating.
Marcia, I have heard that women are more bothered by an emotional affair than a sexual affair. I don’t understand those women. A sexual betrayal would be more painful for me. But I must acknowledge that I have never experienced either, so I’m not a good source.
Lovisa,
“I don’t understand those women. A sexual betrayal would be more painful for me.”
For me, it would depend. If it was both an emotional and physical affair (he fell in love with the other woman and had sex with her), yes, I’d be devastated.
But men are quite capable of having meaningless sex. I’d prefer that over him falling in love (or limerence, however you want to define it) and be completely fixated on another woman for … what? A year at least, if not more?
I guess if he was actively avoiding her and trying to deal with the feelings. But I’d have a lot less forgiveness/understanding if he was still in contact with this person.
I can understand what you’re saying. It sounds like you prefer a casual sexual betrayal because your relationship wouldn’t be as threatened as it would be if your SO fell in love with his affair partner. I guess I understand, but I still think a sexual betrayal is worse. Maybe it’s my religious roots talking, but sex outside of marriage is a big problem for me. It is adultery. No one accidentally finds themselves in an adulterous relationship, but people do find themselves accidentally marinating in an EA. I think Adam is the perfect example of someone who got too close to an attractive “friend” accidentally. Does that make sense? I guess the intention behind it is important to me.
I’ve thought about this a lot because, much to my surprise, my SO encouraged me to have contact with my LOs after he learned about my limerence even though my LOs both disclosed that they have feelings for me. My SO thinks that LO2 and LO3 are both respectable men who are good influences on me. He is correct, but I’m surprised that he sees it like this. I think the reason my SO has patience for my friendships with men is that it benefits my SO. I am a happier version of myself. I went from being hyper focused on the struggles we were having with our kids (which included depression and suicidal ideation) to happy and thriving and my libido went through the roof. My husband likes me better like this. I guess what I’m saying is that I think SOs have a higher tolerance for limerence and EAs as long as it results in a positive outcome. If the SO loses something or fears a loss, they aren’t as tolerant.
Marcia, I don’t remember if you’ve ever been married. I know you’ve had some long term relationships, but I can’t remember if you married.
Lovisa,
” It sounds like you prefer a casual sexual betrayal because your relationship wouldn’t be as threatened as it would be if your SO fell in love with his affair partner.”
It wouldn’t even necessarily have to be with an actual affair partner. I’d be threatened if he fell in love with someone else.
” but people do find themselves accidentally marinating in an EA.”
Yes, but people know when they have strong feelings for someone else. And trying to establish communication with them and see them, for example, seems like pursuing them and those feelings on some level. Whether or not things blossom into a full-blown EA.
“my SO encouraged me to have contact with my LOs after he learned about my limerence even though my LOs both disclosed that they have feelings for me. ”
I applaud the way you handled this. You were honest and discussed with your husband, I’m assuming, what he was comfortable with in terms of what you could do with your LOs (contacting them, seeing them, etc.)
I think what would really hurt me is if an SO withheld not only their feelings for their LO but also made a unilateral decision in terms of how we as a couple handled feelings for other people and what we were comfortable with in terms of behavior regarding those feelings.
“Marcia, I don’t remember if you’ve ever been married.”
I’ve never been married.
Thanks Marcia, I tried to keep it in my head, but my husband said that I lit up like a Christmas tree every time that I talked about LO3 and so he asked me directly what was going on. We had some difficult discussions. We talked about our male/female friendships and defined boundaries. I have been careful to be open and honest with my husband about my contact with my male friends though, at times, my SO seems annoyed by it. I think he prefers the honesty over secrecy so he tolerates his occasional discomfort. I am still friends with my LO2 who is the reason I came to LwL more than 2 years ago and I am friends with my LO3 who I transferred my limerence to out of desperation. It’s working for me. It seems to be fine for them. I guess I’m lucky.
But to address the EA vs PA discussion… I think it comes down to two things for the SO
1. What have I lost because of this EA/PA?
2. What might I lose because of this EA/PA?
Lovisa,
Sorry to intrude your discussion here with Marcia.
Based on my own experience (1 sample here), I believe Limerent-type women is more emotional-bond/connection/fidelity/infidelity concerned both in their SO/LO and in themselves.
To their SO/LO, they want/desire their emotional fidelity/reciprocation more than physical one; For themselves, having PA with non-LO is much easier than having PA with a non-reciprocated LO, from whom they intensely crave EA far more than PA (of course, both combined is the best).
My own experiences:
1. When infatuated with xLO2 (had a girlfriend/fiancé) and had PA with him (addictive to him), I still felt deeply hurt/sad (not jealous) because his affection and time were mostly given to her. After that LE, I made oath to myself, never to have PA with a coupled man (the oath is still intact), while without any concept of EA, as defined here in the West.
2. ONE month after our marriage, I incidentally sensed SO had PA (two of them were actively seeking its continuation) . He confessed 4 PAs between the engagement and official marriage. Newly wed, I got angry but did not feel deeply hurt (SO was a first-sight glimmery LO #4).
Why? Not entirely sure. Perhaps, he claimed they were all casual, and I sensed his mind/heart was still affectionately with me. My mind must have thought that his PAs were just unplanned accidents, not his heart involved (despite one of them was his college-flame). The milk is already spilled, what’s point to feel upset about it? I forgave SO quickly in another couple of months.
On the other side of the coin, as a limerent, I could (did) have casual PA/FWB with random dates, xLO, but NOT an active, emotionally un-reciprocating LO, even his willingness and chances for PA were repeatedly given 😠 😢 — the emotional pain would be too intense (LE2 proved this — feeling being played as a sexual object). Which limerent wants to be physically “dallied at” by a Sensor or Narc LO?
That’s how limerence cripples one, particularly hard-core limerent women, even in realistically carrying out the desired, fantasized PA with LO!
Wondering how male limerents would respond, if their non-EA reciprocating female LO are open to their LE desires.
My cousin once said: without mind/heart involved, sex is just a piece of steak bouncing on another piece of steak, engined by hormone!
The danger is that repeated PA with one could induce oxytocin bondage with that “object”.
Sheesh Snow, you and I view the world in a very different light. I honestly didn’t understand much of what you said and I’m sorry about that because I am listening and I do want to understand your ideas. What I gleaned from your comment is that shortly after you married, your husband confessed to 4 different affairs that he had during your engagement. Holy cow, that is awful! I don’t know how you were so casual about it. I would have annulled the marriage. In my culture marriage is eternal. There is no “till death” so walking away from a marriage is a big deal, but infidelity during engagement is definitely grounds for ending a marriage. Sheesh! I’m sad that you went through that, but it sounds like it doesn’t bother you, perhaps I misunderstood?
@Lovisa,
It did not bother me back then or later… We got divorced undramatically for incompatibilities and dead love. I never had “illicit” PA but two big non-acted glimmer-infatuations —FEA, which I saw clearly how it could be damaging to marriage — my mind stayed off to LOs, reducing my affection for SO.
I did not grow up with Western religions, but PA has been morally terrible to a committed relationship, like marriage, in my COO. Still after SO’s confession on his 4 casual PAs during the engagement and his oath to have no more, I forgave him easily and quickly; we were both very young and still loving each other.
I don’t expect you to ever understand me, you presumed PA betrayal/infidelity pain sounds (to me) primarily from your religious and my COO’s scripts. Oh perhaps, I was no longer in LE with my SO by the time I learned about PAs, so I was angry but not deeply hurt.
I was trying to provide one example to your puzzlement: why some women, particularly limerent type, can tolerate (not the word “prefer”) physical betrayal more easily than emotional one — because LE EMOTIONAL bond/reciprocation with/from SO/LO is far, far more or important, perhaps neurologically wired or traumatically conditioned, than merely physical, superficial connections.
That might also explain why some Limerents do not mind existence of LO’s SO, but LO’s LO.
Lovisa,
“I guess I’m lucky.”
You are. It sounds like your husband has a lot of self-confidence and emotional intelligence.
” I think it comes down to two things for the SO
1. What have I lost because of this EA/PA?
2. What might I lose because of this EA/PA?”
Yes. I just don’t want to be unknowingly cast in some French movie where I think everything is fine and I’m hanging out with my SO and the neighbor couple and my SO is in love with her and I have no idea and they’re meeting in the garden at 3 a.m. (I think that is the actual plot to a Truffaut movie.)
Now, I did find out a long-term boyfriend was seeing someone else. I didn’t know how far things had gone with her but I didn’t even bring it up with him. By then, I was so checked out of the relationship, a large part of me didn’t care. I was already looking for an escape hatch.
Marcia,
I don’t want this for you either
“ Yes. I just don’t want to be unknowingly cast in some French movie where I think everything is fine and I’m hanging out with my SO and the neighbor couple and my SO is in love with her and I have no idea and they’re meeting in the garden at 3 a.m”
But in order to have a solid relationship, you have to be vulnerable. There is no other way. Vulnerability is a necessary price for emotional intimacy. My husband could betray me, I could betray him. We choose to trust each other anyway. It is preferable to having our guard up. We are both lucky that each of us is committed to the principles of marriage because whether I am in his presence or not, I try to conduct myself in a way that benefits my husband. I think he does the same.
I understand why you struggle to trust your partners, but there really is no other way to enjoy a healthy long-term relationship.
You have mentioned many times that you don’t like the way a woman is treated when she looses her looks. I’ve seen how my mother-in-law and mom are treated by the important people in their lives. They are given respect and kindness and lots of service. My mother-in-law has limited mobility so she causally tells the rest of us what to do and we happily obey. I hope that when I lose my physical appeal, my relationships are strong like I see in my mentors. I don’t think my mom or mother-in-law care about their appearances because they have respect and love from the people that matter. It seems like establishing healthy relationships when we’re young is the best approach. I could be way off base. It’s something I was pondering when I went camping with my mother-in-law. I thought about what you said multiple times and I think there is a lot of merit to it, but it just isn’t being modeled for me. I see older women get pampered not discarded.
Lovisa,
“I see older women get pampered not discarded.”
By whom? Their children or grandchildren? Or a man they’ve been married to for decades?
That’s different, for example, than starting a new job and being put on the list by the men there. (To be fair, women do it, too. )
Yes, by the man they’ve been married to for decades and their children.
Good point
When I met with a friend this week and spoke through my feeling out loud about LO and especially the recent anxiety hangover I had after the last contact, where I was triggered again about jealousy for LOs colleague, she said that it sounded like I was in an emotional affair, even if one sided. This was a wake up call. I want to be a woman of integrity who lives a simple quiet life dedicated to my family. I haven’t been doing that really, albeit mainly in my head. I want the desire to be honourable to override the desire for my LO and this LE. This is my hope at least. I hope it will be enough to fuel some sort of distance and eventual recovery.
@WP
From what I’ve learned from LwL, I’m not sure whether Limerent’s astronomical, EMOTIONAL infatuation with (I’m not denying LO’s physical/sexual attraction) and primarily desire/carving for LO’s EMOTIONAL reciprocation (a lot of time NOT LO themselves, or even casual PA with them), could be considered as an “emotional affair”, especially if s/he has not realistically, concretely acted on this overwhelming infatuation. It goes back to that frequented questions here: can mental activities counted as “emotional affairs”, particularly when one-sided?
I think DrL and many have pointed out: un-acted thoughts and emotions are NOT “criminal” or immoral”. No one can help rising and falling thoughts and emotions, but can control actions sprung from them.
I’ve read your earlier, longer post (still too tired to respond) and can resonate with your LE emotional hangovers, since I’ve been going through them from time to time, which I’ve termed with in peace — it’s normal in LE recovery process, and I just need to face/stare at them, angrily or sadly, maybe after 50 times (Mila’s term), until those hangovers fade out and until I’m indifferent to those LE “triggering” or MLL’s news.
Please be sympathetic and empathetic on your own emotions.
Or using your friend’s term, we could say, limerents “are in an emotional affair” with our limerence mind — the craving for LO, which leads to our internal sufferings, hangovers, etc.
Yeah im not beating on myself for having an EA. I still don’t think this is what’s going on here. I think what struck me most was the way I was talking about it all. The friend doesn’t know about LE. Although posting here gets it off my chest somewhat, talking about it out loud separates it from the mind and makes it sound a bit more concerning. I think talking it through was a wake up call. I was getting tied up in thinking about LO, getting jealous about his colleague/work best friend and the way I was talking was just sounded a bit mad. I’m using it as focus to move on. It’s hard though as I’ve wanted to reach out lots this week. I feel better not having done that though.
Maybe I’m being too simplistic, but I think Whoomp and many of us are having a Fantasy Affair.
If it’s in our heads and we aren’t sharing lots of personal /emotional stuff with a cooperative LO then I don’t believe it qualifies as an EA.
Maybe we add FA to the acronym list.
@Imho,
I like your term, FA! Fantasy or Fantasied?
I totally agree with you that FA is not qualified as EA; otherwise, would be PA with LO in one’s head considered a real PA?
An FEA or FPA with a MFF!
The acronyms go wild here!
Ha ha Mila !
Dr. L will need to immediately do a second edition of his book to incorporate these new genius definitions !
Imho,
I think Snow is the queen of acronyms here. FWB, XLO, she never even stumbles.
Sorry, it seems I cannot write serious stuff at the moment🙈
Imho is an acronym, so maybe Snow is also an acronym! Subtly noble outstanding wonderwoman.
Mila, mystified innocuous lamenting ant.
I think I should stop that now. If I don‘t have something sensible to contribute I should just shut up.
I can so identify with this. The struggle to be the woman I want to be – one with integrity, decent wife and a good mother against the woman I am – limerent for an idiot who cheats on his wife, claims he has only friendly feelings for me but until he got back to his earlier mistress recently used to call and chat with me for hours on end everyday. I feel we had an EA – but he claims he may have been a bit attracted to me but has only friendly feelings. How can I be limerent for such a red flag – I cant believe myself !
As I said in another thread; sexual affairs are cold calculated and planned decisions. You don’t “accidentally” have sex with someone. You can be inebriated. You can be seduced. But still in the end it’s a decision you make to get naked in bed with another person.
Emotional affairs are as deceptive as the serpent and the fruit. Your brain tells you all kinds of lies of justification and deceit. “You’re just being nice.” “You treat her better than most men.” “She appreciates your help.” “She has no on else.”
So yeah I could forgive Momma an emotional affair much easier than a sexual affair. Plus I wouldn’t do well in prison for killing the guy either.
I agree with everything you said, Adam except the murder part. Of course if my husband had an affair, it would trigger my “I wanna kick her a$$” instinct. I hope I could handle it with maturity and of course no violence or retaliation. I also hope I never have to find out how I would handle it.
The first thing out of my wife’s mouth when I disclosed, three years after LO #4 and I said goodbye was, “Did you love her?”
I waffled on my response.
When I explained things to my wife, she said, “A redhead with a hard luck story looking for a shoulder to cry on..? I can see how that would appeal to you.”
Probably get deleted again but why are so many of the pages here no longer allowing replies?
Because Dr. L/Dr. Tom turned off commenting on older blogs and keeps them turned on for the newer ones now. He mentioned this in a recent post.
You can choose to post what you would like in the Coffeehouse.
@Limerent Emeritus.
It sounds like your wife, if you admitted to loving your LO, would probably assume you were having an emotional affair, or were in grave danger of being about to embark on an emotional affair. I can understand why you waffled your answer. (I think you’ve previously categorised your LO#4 as an emotional affair anyway?)
If a sociologist asked you the same question, however, and not your wife, wouldn’t the question still be difficult to answer without waffling? For example, you’d have to decide whether or not limerence is love. And then, if you did decide limerence is love, you’d have to decide at what point does limerence turn into love? If you didn’t decide limerence is love, then how would you classify limerence? Obsession? Infatuation? Escapism? Addiction? Delusion?
I personally don’t think limerence is love – not in the early stages, anyway. Too much dopamine and not enough oxytocin. I associate love with oxytocin. I think love should feel calming and limerence is almost too exciting to be called love. 🙂
Sammy,
WRT LO #4, at the time, I probably did love her. But I was never in love with her. We’d never met and weren’t part of each other’s daily lives. It could have easily turned out that had circumstances been different, we might not have gotten along at all.
There was a 14 year age gap. She traveled in social circles that I had no experience in and might not have liked. I suspect we had different views on politics and religion. Once we got to really know each, we might not have liked each other very much. But, at the time, the idea of finding out was a compelling driver.
Drifting into the recent blog:
Therapy helped me kill off my inner 5yr old that LO #4 unleashed and was driving everything. Once he was gone, a lot of things became clear.
After I understood those things, my life fell into place. I can see how the the combination of external and internal events shaped my destiny.
Toss in an understanding of Attachment Theory and not only can you explain how my life played out, you could have almost predicted it.
Who you are determines internal factors. Fate, destiny, karma, the Hand of God, whatever, provide external factors that determine how things play out.
My father’s suicide and some obscure Naval officer who decided to send me to a submarine outside Seattle set me on the current arc of my life.
@LE,
Your father sounded tough and wise, he committed suicide? 😳
I’m sorry to hear your loss in this fashion… 😢
I’m with you in terms of LE trigger — Anxious Attachment that was embedded/“wired” in my brain/psyche… I hope my COO trip and that decisive “steam spa-room” dream have finally removed this faceless parental figure out of my system, so far so good.
I don’t think killing “5yr old” is a healthy, or even possible way to go; s/he will be always there, and their innocence curiosity, and cuteness add colors to one’s “dull”/regulated adult life. They just need adult SELF to nurture and assure, so they don’t “roam unruly” like In limerence.
Snow,
I have more than one inner 5yr old in me.
The one who remembers his mother sobbing in a dark bedroom and telling her jokes to see if he could get her to stop is the one I killed off in therapy. He was dangerous on the loose.
That’s the one LO #4 unleashed when she told me she’d been crying and I made her feel better. Do you know how I responded when she told me her BF had allegedly cheated on her, suckered punched her from behind, then gave her a bloody nose?
After the serious stuff, I told her oboe jokes.
The “best 5yr old con man in the city of Joliet” me can hang around as long as he likes.
He was an ok kid.
@LE,
While both trying to soothe pains of damsel in distress, why your 1st 5yr old is more dangerous than the 2nd one? “5ys old con man in the city of Joliet” is safer❓
What’s “serious stuff” you did after your #4 told you her horrible plight? From my understanding, you’ve never met her in person, in limerence just with LO’s words? 🧐
Oboe jokes perhaps are right tools to massage one’s sore heart…
Snow,
The “best 5yr old con man” me was a fun kid to be around. He still is. He represents the best aspects of my mother’s side of the family.
The other kid was potentially dangerous as he represented a vulnerability and posed risk. He responded to glimmer.
https://i.discogs.com/Yrwvu3MYhhAt10Hj-Au0JDAI-MyEnd3bNBLowcemb_o/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:609/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTI1MTE3/NzgtMTQ1NjkxNDQ5/Ny05MTYzLmpwZWc.jpeg
The kid is me.
Nope, I never met Lo #4. The closest I ever got to her was about 40 miles when I had a layover in Seattle. Incidentally, that put me within 10 miles of LO #2.
When LO #4 moved out of LA, she moved to within 15 miles of where I moved from. I gave her directions to stores. It wasn’t that I didn’t want to be there for her. I knew it wasn’t my place. The EAP counselor told me that being across the country from LO #4 was the biggest break I caught.
She wasn’t the first woman who told me something like this, LO #4 was the third. I knew I how responded to those.
I know what it’s like to have a woman knock on my door at 11PM, tell me her BF is cheating on her, what a great guy I was, and ask to spend the night. I know what it’s like to have that woman bury her face in my shoulder and cry so hard that I could wring her tears out of my shirt. I know what it’s like to straddle that woman and hold her hair out of the toilet while she’s on her hands and knees barfing up 3/4 of a bottle of Johnny Walker. Booze barf is kind of like weed, it has its own unique aroma.
LO #4 told me that once that she’d drunk port and listened to Martha Wainright until she passed out. It drove me nuts. I don’t know that anyone ever held her as she cried. Someone should have. I almost asked her if anyone ever did but I knew that nothing good could come from that question.
It just couldn’t be me.
For a lot of limerents, limerence seems to be fairly abstract. For me, limerence was anything but abstract.
@LE,
Glimmer itself is not evil, without it, how single (non)limerent could ever click with anyone amorously? How artists/musicians/writers… of all sorts get their muse/inspiration?
It matters on how our executive mind, with keen LE awareness, responds to a rare glimmer.
Snow,
I agree that Glimmer is inherently neutral and it’s how we respond that matters.
To the 5yr old con man, the 5’10” redhead INTJ LO #4 was positively delightful. I think we could have had a lot of fun together.
To the married adult being driven by a 5yr old trying to pull off with LO #4 what he couldn’t do for his mother, the woman was kryptonite.
@Limerent Emeritus.
When I read your comment here, I get a man who is unquestionably capable of very deep emotion. However, your emotion does seem to get buried sometimes under an avalanche of detail. Sometimes, it seems like you can’t name your emotions with ease (alexithymia) or that you can’t link each emotion with the presumable relevant cue.
Your father’s death is very sad. I think that event would inspire deep grief in a lot of people, even if they didn’t get on with their dad. From the sound of things, you had a lot of respect for your father. Please accept my sincere sympathy for your very great loss.
“I probably did love her. But I was never in love with her.”
Honestly, this sounds back-the-front to me. I associate limerence with that “in-love” feeling (largely because of the brain chemicals we know to be involved) and not with loving. Unless you’re suggesting you loved the idea of LO#4 in the sense of maybe she was your mother-in-disguise and you wanted to help her. Or con her. Or maybe make up for all the times you did con her by helping her. 😆
I don’t think it’s necessarily to kill off one’s inner child. All children have needs and the needs of children are legitimate. By, as adults, I think we need to admit that it’s a bit late for some of those needs to be met. Again, assuming limerence is some kind of personal redemption story – wanting to make up for something in the past.
I don’t really understand the concept of rescuing at all. It seems like a terribly masculine mode of existence. While I’m quite masculine in many respects, my fantasies never seem to veer toward rescuing.
My older sister falls in love (i.e. limerence) with other women. Sometimes, whatever romantic script she’s playing out seems like a masculine script, and it’s confusing to see a woman play out a masculine romantic script i.e. rescuing a damsel in distress.
My sister told me she actually feels superior to all her LOs, and never inferior. She doesn’t “worship” the women she saves. This is odd to me – because if she feels superior to her female LO, how come her female LO still has the power to dictate her moods and self-esteem?
My sister seems to have a deep emotional dependency on female love interests that contradicts previous claims of superiority. But I wonder if all masculine-configured souls have this cognitive dissonance going on inside them regarding romantic relationships?
I.e. males often feel smugly morally superior to females but are also utterly dependent on females for validation of that moral superiority? If the “master” needs validation from the “slave”, then who is the real “slave” in the dynamic? 🤔
Because my sister is a female who’s quite emotionally intelligent, (I admire her greatly and borrow many of her ideas and sayings), I’m shocked she can’t just pull herself out of obsession. I wrongly assumed that her being a female would automatically give her the insight to be able to see through all the self-deception she tends to engage in. Also, the insight to see through another woman’s games.
“Who you are determines internal factors. Fate, destiny, karma, the Hand of God, whatever, provide external factors that determine how things play out.”
I do like your grand view of life. The problem with grand views of life is it’s hard to find other people to validate one’s grand view of life! Another reason men need women – someone to validate (or at least listen to) one’s grand masculine conception of reality. Perhaps, at the end of the day, we’re all just children playing dress-up? 🙂
Sammy,
I’ve often said that to be a limerent, you have to have an LO. If life doesn’t hand you one, theoretically you don’t go down that rabbit hole. Your predispositions may lead you down other rabbit holes but limerence won’t be one of them. My analogy is you can be deathly allergic to bee stings but if you never get stung, you’ll never know how close to death you really were.
There are similarities between limerence and codependence. Therapists know a lot about codependence but few know anything about limerence. After all the research I’ve done, I think codependence and limerence have their origins in the same place and your early environment dictates which one you become.
Neither of my parents was codependent. When it became obvious that things were beyond correcting, they left. Collectively, my parents had a dismal 0-5 record in marriages. So, while my upbringing and disposition tilted me toward being a damsel-in-distress recusing limerent, codependence was never modeled for me.
Now, being raised by my two grandparents, that modeled a whole different set of dynamics and I learned a whole new skill set, Passive-Aggressiveness being the most notable. I didn’t know the term for it but I knew it when I saw it. That skill served me well in later life.
My grandmother laid a filter over my rescuing tendencies. I only tried to rescue women who were worthy of rescuing, women who were victims of bad luck rather than victims of bad judgment. It reduced the candidate pool but it was a setup of sorts. It led me to reverse the concepts of cause and effect. When you dig deeper into a lot of things, the women I thought were victims of bad luck were victims of bad judgment. They ignored red flags and made the same mistakes repeatedly.
People aren’t who they are because of the relationships they have. People have the relationships they have because of who they are. Once you get the concepts of cause and effect straight, a whole lot of things make sense, like why people have relationships with the same type of people who they had failed relationships with or why no matter what you do or say, nothing seems to change for the better in the long haul.
LO #2 was pretty easy to calibrate but she would never stay in calibration. It was like she had volatile memory. We could have a serious discussion one day, she’d wake up the next day, and it was like the previous day had never happened. POOF! It was gone.
Another avalanche of details…
Miss Lovisa
That also makes me wonder why I would retaliate against the affair partner while to some degree ignoring Momma’s hypothetical part in the equation. It takes two. But I’d only lash out at him. Makes me wonder how others might react and retaliate against their spouse?
LE
Your wife is very astute. LO was a redhead even though she dyed her hair black. My wife is a redhead even though it’s all silver now. What is it about redheads that I can’t resist even when visibly they are not?
Yes, well done SL.
That’s got to have been a real test. You passed. I love to think that I would pass too but I cant be sure. And at one time, I was even more susceptible than I am now.
I’m reminded of the movie “Plymouth Adventure” in which the captain (Spencer Tracy) tries his hardest to get Mrs. Bradford to sleep with him, while she resists–but still falls in love with him. Nowadays many people would call *that* a betrayal, yet because she never slept with him, the captain tells Mr. Bradford that “she never betrayed you.”
When we were first married, there was a situation where I had all these images of what SO was doing with a mutual friend when they were alone. But he told me no, she was very respectful the whole time and they never did anything like that. It eased my mind. I guess I was still learning to trust him.
Now today–I don’t want to give details about what happened, here on the open web. Let’s just say I was sorely tested by LO, thought for sure I was the weakest limerent ever (didn’t even want to stop the limerence), but in the time of testing, I actually resisted. I just couldn’t do it when it became a real Thing and not just a limerent fantasy. We agreed to dial things back. And then afterward I realized how much I enjoyed sitting and chatting with a platonic friend, who had diminished during the LE. Is this the turning point that finally frees me of it?
I also wonder what made me so strong in the moment: a hug from SO a short time before? being in a church? going about my normal activities and pondering what my various friends and family would think if they found out? spending my time here instead of indulging my basest thoughts over on the adultery subreddit? working to make my marriage more affectionate again? imagining how SO would react?
In any case, I had no idea that strength was there until I was tested. Now I hope I keep up with it, because the guilt was driving me mad.
Wow Serial Limerent.
You can be very proud of yourself.
Not sure if I would have been that good or strong.
I think you instinctively grasped the difference between fantasy and reality in that moment.
That might be a very big step towards freedom, you know that? Very happy for you!
@SL,
I agree with Mila, you should feel VERY, VERY proud of you! 👏👏
“I just couldn’t do it when it became a real Thing and not just a limerent fantasy.”
I think, more than all other external, morality concerns, perhaps the realization of difference(s) between Real thing and Fantasy — FPA from PA, have helped you resist the temptation??
Imagine if you’re single and in the same situation, what would you have done?
Yes, well done SL.
That’s got to have been a real test. You passed. I love to think that I would pass too but I cant be sure. And at one time, I was even more susceptible than I am now.
Hi SL,
Thank you for sharing and being so open. Your action was highly admirable.
I hope you can tap into the proven inner strength you now knowingly have.
Thanks guys! Of course, this is one test; I have to see what happens in future. But it was reassuring to find my instincts rebelling.
SL,
Of course it was only this time,
but it was surely helpful to see that you could resist in reality even though you spent so much time fantasizing and wishing, it shows that there is a gap between reality and limerence. That’s the important thing to recognize, I think.
Momma is asleep. Im watching Deep Blue Sea which played on repition on cable at the hosptal when our first 15 month premature boy was born. He was about 2 lbs. Our youngest was 6-8 weeks early if I remember right. Ever since he could talk he always called me Adam. Around his teens he started calling me dad. I never got a babygirl to call me daddy but 😦 I guess thats why LOs daughters seemed to be my daughters even though they werent.
If it’s just about perception by the SO, this seems like one you can only really ask the SOs, or rather the non-limerent ones… Limerents are likely the worst witnesses for this. My two cents would be that limerents probably experience EAs more intensely than non-limerents and would therefore over-weight an EA.
I think most cultures consider PAs to be far worse. The film Brief Encounter is a pretty good example of it actually being seen as almost noble to somehow avoid a PA.
There is a good german phrase for this one:
it doesnt matter where you get your appetite from, you eat at home.
„ There is a good german phrase for this one:
it doesnt matter where you get your appetite from, you eat at home.“
I don’t like this phrase at all. I get visions of disgusting men ogling other women and then thinking of them while having sex with their wife. Sorry.
Mila,
“I don’t like this phrase at all.”
I agree. If I can’t get the oven heated up, maybe we ought to call it a day.
I like the phrase and I don’t care if my husband’s mind wanders while he is “eating at home” so to speak as long as he only “eats at home.”
I suspect that the phrase, “Lay back and think of England,” implies the same thing.
I prefer not to inquire into what my husband is thinking. I think, rather, that if you keep it at home, your SO’s can benefit from the desires that get stirred up by crushes. 🙂
I don’t question my wife before or after what is going through her head. I prefer to gauge my “skills” on what I see and hear. Not really interested to know what goes through someone’s head in the throws of passion. She’s in bed with me right? Not some other guy. And I always prefer to “dine in” when I get the chance. 😉
@Serial Limerent
…until he goes and reads your journal, and discovers there’s other men in that brain causing those passions, and is devastated 💔
Adam,
“She’s in bed with me right? Not some other guy. ”
Yeah, but … I’m not sure how to write this, but you’re the option she has. Just as she’s the option you have.
Be glad that you can’t read minds.
It’s bad enough when they explain it to you.
Song of the Day: “Diary” – Bread (1972)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24IfD-0VUu4
If you really want to go through the floor, listen to this while reading the last few pages of James Joyce’s “The Dead:”
“While he had been full of memories of their secret life together, full of tenderness and joy and desire, she had been comparing him in her mind with another…
Gabriel, leaning on his elbow, looked for a few moments unresentfully on her tangled hair and half-open mouth, listening to her deep-drawn breath. So she had had that romance in her life: a man had died for her sake. It hardly pained him now to think how poor a part he, her husband, had played in her life. He watched her while she slept, as though he and she had never lived together as man and wife.”
I’m not a big fan of Joyce but I like this story.
@Limerent Emeritus,
“Be glad that you can’t read minds.“
I so agree with you here! Unable to read minds is a true essence of “Ignorance is a bliss!”. External truths, more than often, are so bitter, hurtful or devastating, unless one’s 100% or just 70% of a Stoic. Stealthily reading the beloved’s dairy is like opening a Pandora’s box…
I also agree with the statement: Honesty is over rated in committed (perceived) relationships/friendships. If one knows every passing thought and emotion of one’s SO, MFF or friends at any given moments, one would be driven to commit a suicide, I truly believe. Just watch our own perpetually changing and evolving thoughts!
The challenge is (I cannot master it myself yet): knowing bitter truth of the present and is still able to cherish those past illusional blissful memories — for “then and there”, Gabriel DID enjoy … Is it wise to negate the blissful memories “here and now?”
This leads to that cliche: live here and now — what’s in your head, not anyone else’s head, is decisively response for your state of mind; it elevates or drags down your moods depending on your choice of thinking, despite external truths.
I’ve been battling with this challenge and finding transitional contentments and joys when I TRULY did not care (think about) what was possibly going on in anyone (especially MFF) else’s head while carrying out my own “purposeful” (in)actions, trivial or routine….
LE, thanks for the beautiful, sad song….
“Yeah, but … I’m not sure how to write this, but you’re the option she has. Just as she’s the option you have.”
Marcia
I am not at all naive enough to think that Momma has never entertained erotic thoughts of other men. Whether it be in the act, solo or just a random thought.
Interestingly enough Momma found out I searched her on Facebook because I handed Momma my phone because I wanted her to check on a post of one of her family member’s that I was concerned about. I don’t check her phone or her laptop ever. I think that despite being committed we still should have a level of our own privacy as individuals. She could have picked up my phone while I slept and found out what she did through my own (accidental) admission. Maybe I wanted her to find out. Either way, as much as she could be justified in doing so, she didn’t.
Personally though, this is my “solo” theme song ….
I Touch Myself — Divinyls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv-34w8kGPM
Adam,
You wrote that she’s in bed with you and not some other guy.
That implies to me there are other options (not so if you’re married and monogamous). I’m not sure how else to put it.
Hats off to Adam and Limerent Emeritus for contributing the male perspective to our conversation. I wondered if any of the boys would be brave enough to chime in. I salute you both!
Marcia
I would think any person in a committed relationship still has options. I have put her through some $hit in 25 years, limerence aside. I take that each night she gets in bed with me, she is choosing me even if she does have options. In fact that she does have options and chooses me night after night says more than anything.
Adam,
I guess I see it as … there’s a meal on the table. You take that meal or you don’t. Those are the options.
Unless you want to go out and get another meal, which is always an option but problematic.
Ha, never thought of it (and didnt intend it) that way. I read it more as
acting on feelings is worse than having them.
That said, maybe it is intended your way….
“I wondered if any of the boys would be brave enough to chime in.”
I’ve been watching this one from the sidelines mostly. I suppose I could have added some perspective but it’s all pretty obvious.
I was a Pig. I decided to go eat elsewhere. It was a cold and calculated act and not just once.
The f#@%!^g I got was never worth the screwing I took.
Hence, limerence. What fantastic retribution..
MJ, you are right that you dined out too much while married. Thanks for chiming in anyway. Hypothetically speaking, if your hypothetical wife’s oven gets heated up while she is out, but she only cooks with you, would you care?
“If your hypothetical wife’s oven gets heated up while she is out, but she only cooks with you, would you care?”
I think at this stage in life I would. I’d like to think she would at least want to tell me about it, considering she would be my Wife. This way she wouldn’t have to feel much guilt. I’ve been there, so I’d like to think I would be understanding.
I guess that’s another reason I’m indifferent to marriage anymore. I don’t really expect that to ever happen again. I feel like marriage was a time thing for me. I don’t think I’ll ever meet somebody like her again and why should I? I messed up a good thing and I pay for that everyday now, with every next struggle. No good Woman wants my soap opera anyway. Not one..
I get it that in a long term relationship the mind might wander here and there.
But “lay back and think of England?” Wow, I don’t get you there.
That implies boring or even hurtful sex where the woman doesn’t enjoy it one bit and just bites on her teeth and endures it for her country. That’s not my cup of tea.
Mila, you are correct that it would be awful to just endure it. That isn’t what I meant. I suspect that older women gave younger women advice to think about whatever they want during relations with their SO when they said, “Lay back and think of England.” I don’t think it is the altruistic statement that it appears to be.
Lovisa,
Ok, I always interpreted this phrase as some horrible Victorian motto in the sense I mentioned, probably for much too young to be married girls etc.
Congratulations on your sex life;) not that many long term couples manage that.
Lovisa,
“I like the phrase and I don’t care if my husband’s mind wanders while he is “eating at home” so to speak as long as he only “eats at home.””
Maybe it’s better to look at it practically and be happy that something is still happening at home after the initial lust phase dies down.
But part of me finds it a little sad.
I agree with M&M, going out of your way to whet your appetite elsewhere doesn’t appeal to me as the demisexual I’m now recognizing myself to be. Before coming on LwL I hadn’t realized how common it is to have an LO and then to use all the feels brought up by them to benefit one’s SO in bed. I’m still wrapping my head around that. But it could very well be a reason that some marriages last for decades..? I.e. those people are able to kind of separate the feeling from the person. And why some (us demisexuals?) are serial monogamists..?
Trifles,
“Before coming on LwL I hadn’t realized how common it is to have an LO and then to use all the feels brought up by them to benefit one’s SO in bed”
I don’t think limerence is common. Finding other people attractive, yes. Crushes that are relatively easy to get over, yes.
But to realize one can’t have that effect on a long-term partner … well, it’s life, I guess. That part of one’s relationship is over after the early days.
Yes, I suppose I should have substituted “LO” for “crushes” (I’ve gotten too drawn up into the lingo here 😉), but the sentiment stands.
I feel obligated to mention that my SO still stimulates my appetite and he says that I stimulate his. After twenty-six years of marriage “eating” with my SO is still my favorite activity. We average 2 to 3 times per week which fluctuates between once a week to multiple times a day. Seriously, after 26 years, I think this is working.
@Lovisa,
Is your libido affected by limerence? Or is it pretty baseline the same? Or is it better now that he knows about your condition, and accepts it? I have noticed (in hindsight) that my libido is off the chart when I feel limerent for someone. Now that I am self-aware and post-limerent, my libido is zero. But so is my spouse’s since he discovered my struggles/thoughts of other men. We ate getting counseling individually at this time, and when he is ready, we will do couples counseling. Until then, we are in roommate status.
Lovisa,
“We average 2 to 3 times per week which fluctuates between once a week to multiple times a day. Seriously, after 26 years, I think this is working.”
I’m glad it’s working for you (I write that in all sincerity), but I can’t think of anyone I’d want to have sex with 2 to 3 times a week for 26 years.
LN,
“I have noticed (in hindsight) that my libido is off the chart when I feel limerent for someone. Now that I am self-aware and post-limerent, my libido is zero. ”
I’m in the same boat.
I think there’s a post on here about that topic. If your sex drive is connected to limerence.
LN, my heart goes out to you and your SO. I hope things get better for both of you.
My libido went through the roof with LE2. I wanted it every day and anticipated my SOs return home from work. One day, before he knew about limerence, he lovingly put his hands on my shoulders, looked me in the eyes and said, “I don’t know what has gotten into you and I am not complaining, but can I have a turn to initiate for a change?” I agreed and we went back to every 3 days instead of daily and it was torture at the time, but I endured. My libido has always been high. It dipped when my kids were small. We went down to twice a month and my husband refers to that as our “sexual drought.” If I go two weeks, I start having weird dreams and I find myself attracted to men who wouldn’t normally do it for me. I remember one time, walking into Walmart, I was greeted by an elderly man and I got tingly and thought, “Dang, he is fine!” Then I snapped out of it and realized I hadn’t “eaten” in almost two weeks. It was just a busy time for both SO and I. I solved that problem as soon as I saw my SO. My SO’s libido is close to mine we fluctuate a little, but we are a good match.
I’m sorry you guys are struggling.
Marcia,
“ I can’t think of anyone I’d want to have sex with 2 to 3 times a week for 26 years.”
lol, I can!
Lovisa,
“ I can’t think of anyone I’d want to have sex with 2 to 3 times a week for 26 years.”
“lol, I can!”
I can’t even get my head around it, tbh. After 26 years … that frequently, I’d feel pressured.
Marcia, that’s interesting. I don’t think my SO feels pressured, but he may have felt pressured when I was meeting him at the door every day. I don’t feel pressured. I love it!
I’m curious, if you had access to an affordable, talented masseuse, would you ever lose interest in getting massaged? I wouldn’t! I’d be grateful. I love massages, too!
Lovisa,
“I’m curious, if you had access to an affordable, talented masseuse, would you ever lose interest in getting massaged?”
So is it the same masseuse every time? 🙂
But I wouldn’t necessarily lose interest in massages, but I don’t know that I’d want that many per week, each week, year after year. That feels like a standing appointment, which feels like a job. Maybe I want to watch my crime shows and eat cookies. Maybe I just go my hair did and don’t want to mess it up. 🙂
Ladies who say their libidos went to zero post-limerence,
do you mean only with men or are you not even going solo here? (I have not idea how to call it in English, there must be an acceptable euphemism 😅)
Or is that too personal to answer, in that case ignore me, I‘m just curious.
Lovisa, I’m envious! lol
LN, I’m sorry you’re going through this. And you seem to be one of the strongest limerents here!
I almost never “eat” solo, Mila. My SO is my only source of nutrition so to speak. The only time I eat solo is if I’m curious about something and I feel obligated to figure it out so I can teach my husband. Other than that, my SO has been my only source of nutrition for 26 years.
Mila, you had me laughing out loud. At first I thought you meant that they lost their libidos for men and switched to women. I had to reread it, lol!
Mila,
“Ladies who say their libidos went to zero post-limerence,
do you mean only with men or are you not even going solo here?”
Yes, still solo stuff. I wouldn’t say then I don’t have any interest but also your hormones change once you go through “the change. ”
But in terms of with men, I’d just rather put my energy into something more productive. Unless it showed up at my door. And did all the work. 🙂
Half the fun of being the man is watching “solo”. And maybe recording it for scientific purposes. 😉
Sorry Lovisa, I just didn’t know how to express myself 🙂
There’s this saying „use it or lose it“, and I read that this goes for libido too. So the more you get regularly (be it alone or with a partner, I guess?) the more you might want it regularly. Don’t know if it’s true.
Me, I love going solo (so what’s the expression now?), but it’s a different category for me, one doesn’t replace the other.
I wouldn’t want to go completely without either, but going solo is much better than bad sex with a partner, while good sex with a partner is better than any solo.
“After twenty-six years of marriage “eating” with my SO is still my favorite activity.”
I’m having so much trouble keeping my mouth zipped during this conversation. 😉
Serial Limerent,
“ I’m having so much trouble keeping my mouth zipped during this conversation. ”
lol, me too! I really want to challenge Mila to take Adam’s advice and perform a solo act for her SO, but I’m going to take the high road and not say anything to Mila. I’m also eager to ask Marcia how often she flies solo since she thinks my frequency with my SO is a bit much, but again, I must keep these thoughts to myself. *wink*
Lovisa
„ I really want to challenge Mila to take Adam’s advice and perform a solo act for her SO, but I’m going to take the high road and not say anything to Mila.“
Well, you did say, so I reply,
for you it seems to be all about your partner, but for me, it’s also about me. I do enjoy my body , if with a partner or without. Of course I can „perform“(what a word) my partner, why not, but it’s not less enjoyable when I’m alone🤷🏻♀️
But I think I gave out t.m.i. here for people to be comfortable- sorry, by no means do I want you to feel you need to keep your mouth zippered or take some high road 😉 so it’s probably best I keep my mouth zippered myself🙊!
You know what’s the strangest thing about that comment …? I made that post 100% sober. If I said that during the work day 100% sober I’d better give my phone to Momma when I get home from work. Heaven help ya’ll with what a few drinks of vodka can do to my willingness to share more than I should.
I still stand by the post though. 😉
Lovisa,
“I’m also eager to ask Marcia how often she flies solo since she thinks my frequency with my SO is a bit much, but again,”
There’s no set schedule. 🙂 Might be two days in a row and then nothing for two weeks. Idk. I don’t like to adhere to a program, but it’s less than what you’re doing with your husband.
And it so much less labor and time intensive then being with someone. And the goal is reached every time. Another difference. 🙂
To extrapolate on what Adam wrote, I have found … not sure how to write this … if you incorporate some of the things you do solo while you’re doing stuff with another person … that seems to be a big hit with … um … Adam’s people. 🙂
Adam,
your post was completely ok! Also Lovisa was completely ok, I just suddenly felt vulnerable that I told so much and people suddenly giving me advice, and I wanted to stop, that’s all.
@Mila.
“Ladies who say their libidos went to zero post-limerence,
do you mean only with men or are you not even going solo here? (I have not idea how to call it in English, there must be an acceptable euphemism 😅)
Or is that too personal to answer, in that case ignore me, I‘m just curious.”
Here’s the male perspective that you never asked for. Or, at least, the male perspective of one highly-unusual male that shouldn’t be taken as representative of the male sex in any way, shape, or form. 😆
Post-limerence, one can still board all the solo flights one wishes. Actually, I think solo flight become even more pleasant post-limerence. One still feels “drive” but “drive without compulsion”.
However, there is a marked difference in solo flights during limerence and solo flights post-limerence. Post-limerence, one’s body is so much calmer and one’s mind is content. One is more relaxed, in other words, and relaxation actually heightens pleasure.
Limerence is like this crazy drive to find something intangible outside of oneself i.e. a mate to pair-bond with. Post-limerence, one doesn’t have that crazy, chemically-driven drive to find a mate. It’s the chemical mayhem going on in a limerent’s brain and body that makes a limerent’s feel desperate and unhappy and anxious.
In other words, post-limerence, one just feels really chilled out all the time. And feeling chilled out doesn’t raise or lower libido. Libido remains stable I’ve found. Feeling chilled out just means one can enjoy one’s libido a lot more. Also, all the feelings of guilt and shame mysteriously evaporate. One is at last “home” in one’s own body. It’s quite extraordinary, really, to feel so at peace with oneself. 🙂
In terms of attraction, post-limerence, one can still appreciate good looks and even pick up on “sexy energy” emanating from potential mates. However, one finds oneself living much more in the present. One doesn’t experience ecstasy and one doesn’t experience despair.
One may still feel shy around attractive others, but not as shy as one felt during limerence. I guess, post-limerence, attraction isn’t experienced as all-consuming. There’s no obsessive quest to win the affection of a specific person. Sexual jealousy becomes non-existent. One feels very generous towards others and doesn’t view others as competition for scarce romantic “resources” anymore. 🙂
“Flying Millennium Falcon in Solo” sounds much better, the only power that can crush “Death Star”…
Ladies and gentle (wo)men,
“Eating”/“doing” … sounds hmm… vague and lame… Picture this — flying Millennium Falcon in solo or duel, w/o Chewbacca, laser beaming at “Death Star”… shooting once, twice, or more than a dozen times… then savor ecstasies of the victory in the entire galaxy… 🪐
Jeff Foxworthy said in one of his specials something that will forever stick with me. He said ” women are like diesel engines. They make take a long time to warm up, but once they do they can go on and on and on and on. Men are like bottle rockets *imitates explosion after 5 seconds*” You keep going on and on and on and I will keep filming. Momma told me the first time “if I do this you have to keep both hands on the camera.” And I thought raising children took patience and self control.
WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE
Sonnet 116
Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments; love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O no, it is an ever-fixèd mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wand’ring bark
Whose worth’s unknown, although his height be taken.
Love’s not time’s fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle’s compass come.
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom:
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.
******
Try thy might to make it “ an ever-fixèd mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken” 🏹
Sammy,
“Post-limerence, one can still board all the solo flights one wishes.”
Oh, I busted out laughing at this. I needed a good laugh. 🙂 Everyone who started this conversation has left the building. There’s nothing like taking off all your clothes while everyone else says they’re going to and then leaves the room, fully dressed. 🙂
“In terms of attraction, post-limerence, one can still appreciate good looks and even pick up on “sexy energy” emanating from potential mates. However, one finds oneself living much more in the present. One doesn’t experience ecstasy and one doesn’t experience despair.
One may still feel shy around attractive others, but not as shy as one felt during limerence. I guess, post-limerence, attraction isn’t experienced as all-consuming. There’s no obsessive quest to win the affection of a specific person.”
I agree with everything you wrote here.
” Sexual jealousy becomes non-existent.”
I wouldn’t say it’s non-existent but it’s not possessive like it is with an LO.
Adam,
“Jeff Foxworthy said in one of his specials something that will forever stick with me. He said ” women are like diesel engines. They make take a long time to warm up, but once they do they can go on and on and on and on. ”
Not necessarily. 🙂 Not if you’re around an LO. You’re revved up pretty quickly … and the bell can be rung pretty quickly. You remember that song . I know you do. 🙂
@Adam,
“diesel engines”, what a dreadful image! Think of a Millenneum Falcon — MF!
While maintained well, just with a phantom of LO on board, MF could take off in seconds and shoot down countless Death Stars in one leisure, lavish flight…
I just watched Brief Encounter. It’s so exactly what I’m going through right now.
Correction: *we are getting counseling
Update: had a table reservation meal for one today, enjoyed it 👍
Hi SL,
you are liking your old movies! I must watch more.
But was that wise to watch Brief Encounter at this time? You prompted me to watch the trailer, but decided I better leave it at that ….
Hope you are doing ok. Obviously it’s mutual with your LO, which must bring a real mix of emotions.
With it Im guessing you get the certainty and can at least both agree on a strategy, if you decide not to have have a final painful goodbye (as in the film).
I’m dealing with it. I thought I might be sad, but I’m just pensive. It’s not a “final goodbye” (which we can’t do without one of us changing religions) but trying to move back from the brink. Playing it by ear at this point.
Watching movies and TV shows of similar predicaments is one of my ways of dealing with emotional situations. 🙂
I relate to this, I was also constantly seeking out books or films with similar situations, not to „learn“ from it but as a way to deal with it and being allowed to think about it. Although there was always a bit of a danger to romanticize it through this since films especially tend to romanticize similar situations. Still, it relieved me a bit since I felt not so alone.
“If your partner is not willing to discuss their views on fidelity openly, tries to argue about how you should feel about any indiscretions, or says one thing and does another, you have problems that go beyond their behaviour towards other people. An unwillingness to work together is a sign of emotional detachment”. As a few of you know I had been a bit mystified why/how my husband could have so easily excused my PA last summer, or why he said it wasn’t the sex itself that bothered him (just the lying). Well, I got more information yesterday: He was driving me to the airport and we were talking about this very post and how amazed I was that I could feel so strongly about someone attractive of the opposite sex -without- much eros. He began to relate with me about a woman he met in Miami once… the more he told me the more I was like, “wait, was she a prostitute?”. And he was like, “yes, I told you she solicited me” and I was like, “I mean actually solicited you, in a straight up transactional sense? No, I never knew this.. wait, what?”. Turns out prior to our marriage he had used quite a number of them. I had no idea, but he started defending himself as if I had known this for 22 years and I was like, “No, you’ve never told me this”. We ended up fighting about if he told me or not and all the follow up questions I had “how many did you use?”, “when was the last time?”, “what else haven’t you told me?”, etc… I was dumbfounded as generations of old, married people’s voices came to me: “You can know a man all your life and never really know him!”…. well, I’ll be damned… when I texted my best friend from the plane and told her she said that it makes sense for a man on the ASD spectrum. I guess this is where the emotional detachment Dr. Tom mentioned comes in and plays its part in this… *sigh*…
In the end it doesn’t change anything for me or for us. I do believe there is more he’s not telling me, but in all our years together he’s treated me very, very well. He’s a good man that loves me and our kids and that’s all that matters to me at this point in my life.
SJ,
“We ended up fighting about if he told me or not and all the follow up questions I had “how many did you use?”, “when was the last time?”, “what else haven’t you told me?”, etc…”
I’m kind of confused why he brought this up. Was the one in Miami when you were together but the others were prior to your relationship? Do you think he’s being honest in saying he thought he already told about going to sex workers? It just seems like something you’d remember telling someone. And I’m kind of confused why he didn’t expect you to have questions/wasn’t willing to answer questions.
Personally, I’m of the mindset that what someone did before we got together is their business unless, obviously, it involves and STD, a child or is a lifestyle they want to continue (i.e. swinging).
I remember how much liquid courage it took me when Momma and I were talking online to tell her I paid a mistress. It wasn’t per say sex as I was a virgin when we got married but I was really surprised how easily took it when I’m overthinking in my head how she might react. Some people get weirded out by that kind of stuff. I was just trying to work out my mommy issues.
She had past consensual encounters but that never bothered me. I don’t think a person’s past sexual history says something about the person in the present. But I do think if a spouse asks that one should be willing to talk about it. My two cents no on asked for.
What trends in wedding fashion and accessories are currently at the peak of popularity, and how do you choose outfits for the bride and groom that harmonize with the overall wedding theme?