Time for another open thread for discussions about all things limerence.
This week’s opening topic is prompted by Mila’s comment in the last coffeehouse post:
Signs that you haven’t completely managed to get over limerence for a friend:
1. a short sharp disappointment when SO announces that he‘ll probably come too to an event where you were expecting to see LO
mila
2. noticing or imagining same disappointment in a reticence in text from LO when writing that to him, followed by
3. an urge to explain why he comes
This is a great exercise in spotting your own hidden motives.
Your emotions reveal your true feelings. If this were genuinely an innocent (or at the very least, safe) friendship, then there would be no sharp disappointment that your access to LO had been disrupted. There would be no anxiety that someone else might be there to scrutinize your behaviour and hold you accountable.
The realisation that your significant other attending the event is spoiling the vibe is clear proof that your plans weren’t innocent – no matter how sophisticated your intellectual rationalisation.
It’s an undeniable sign that you still have LO in the “alternative romantic option” mental category, not in the “valued friend” category, as you might like to claim.
Being attentive to these sorts of signs is excellent protection against the “I’m totally over this let’s go for coffee!” effect. It’s bargaining. You wilfully talk yourself into believing something at a superficial level that you know deep down is not true. Purposeful self-delusion.
It’s easy for a limerent to slip into this conflicted mindset where they intellectually acknowledge that the limerence is a Bad Thing and they are committed to getting over it, but the animal hunger is still growling in the subconscious and goading them into action.
That conflict can manifest as sophistry – constructing a pretty collage of metaphorical fig leaves to cover your real motives… until your spouse goes and blows it all apart by intruding into your schemes. A living rebuke for your hubris.
Noticing those moments is powerful. Rather than just getting irritated and irritable at the disruption, you can recognise that your spiking emotions are revealing your true feelings. That’s a valuable way of breaking through the bargaining and facing the truth: you aren’t yet ready to be friends with LO.
So, inspired by Mila, here are some other useful signs from the subconscious that you are not over your LO:
- You know you should delete photos of them from your phone, but it feels like it would be an unbearable loss
- Your heart still skips when you get a text or email from them
- You make flimsy justifications for why it’s OK to contact them
- You instinctively keep secrets about them
- You get jealous when they flirt with someone else
- The idea of them somehow finding out about your limerence secretly excites you
Those are a few signs off the top of my head. Over to you, LwL team – what other signs can you come up with?
How can you tell that you’re not yet over them?
Very honored, Dr.L 🙂
Thankfully, I think I moved another step forward and I wouldn’t react like that anymore. Also, I think it’s a sign that you slowly get a grip on your limerence when you can identify these gut reactions of disappointment etc immediately as what they are and put up a stop sign.
From my experience, I might add that certain feelings of resentment and anger at LO are a sign that there‘s still more than friendship going on in my mind. They are caused by still expecting from LO more in terms of care, validation, emotions than from other friends, and not getting these needs fulfilled.
Hi Mila, you hit the big time on LwL inspiring DrLs blog this week! It’s kinda fitting you are the first to reply 😀
Very heartening to read you are continuing in the right direction. Cheering you on and hopefully you are inspiring those who are stuck, see 👇
Hi Imho,
Thanks, I felt very honored but immediately worried about my English😂
I‘m in a good place. Only a bit sad that it seems still necessary to kill positive feelings and harbor negative ones to keep limerence away. We‘ll be friends but I start to accept that it won’t be the warm and easy friendship we had before, at least for quite a while.
He just sent me a detailed text why he‘s got so little time and I immediately get annoyed because I didn’t ask, and he knows that I’ve got even less time, so I don’t get why he thinks I’m waiting for anything.
That’s of course ridiculous, but I cannot help myself.
How are you doing, Imho? Has this event taken place where you couldn’t go?
Hi Mila,
your English is impeccable ! So don’t every worry about that.
I think the silly resentment and annoyance feelings you refer to are probably your subconscious protecting yourself from sliding backwards. Maybe in time once you are fully over the LE these odd reactions will go and the natural warmth of friendship will return without the potential of going back into the danger zone of limerence.
As for me, thanks for asking, the event has just taken place and the dreaded photos are being shared. Its really hard, as expected.
Like you, my internal reactions are not very nice, I’m a bit critical of what LO chose to wear etc. I’m sure its a protection thing to stop me longing for him quite so much.
*So don’t ever worry about that.
It’s almost like my typo was on purpose to show your English is better than mine ! Ha ha!
Hi Imho,
„Maybe in time once you are fully over the LE these odd reactions will go and the natural warmth of friendship will return without the potential of going back into the danger zone of limerence.“
That’s what I hope too.
Today I managed a friendly text exchange without wanting to withhold warmth „because he’s not worth it“. Feels much better.
So the photos aren’t that flattering? Very good:)
I also think that getting critical of LO is on the one hand a sign that the mind is still occupied, but on the other side it’s the protection mechanism shooting a bit too much but still a sign of overcoming limerence. Much better than the dreamy stuff.
I had a few exchanges with LO1 this week, work trips being our danger zone back in my first LE, and although he can be obnoxious and I don’t like him much anymore, there’s still a residue of the old physical attraction.
Neuronal pathways that‘ll never go away completely, or he‘s just deep down on an animalistic level my type .
Without limerence, I can observe that quite detached and then keep the usual distance.
Imho,
So you didn’t like what he was wearing…How bad are we talking? Chest hair? Jewellery? Skinny jeans 🤪?!
Hi Bewitched, nice to hear from you. Like you, it’s very much a physical attraction plus wavelength thing.
One photo of LO from the event is very ‘dreamy’ as Mila calls it, which I’m trying not to linger on too much.
His clothes choice was maybe for fun ( it was quite specific, so I can’t say here, I will tell you over a coffee someday !) , which is actually ok and shows he is not vain. I think i’m just hanging onto anything that stops me idolising him so much.
I’m sure he will want to tell me all about the event soon, probably this week….so I will have to navigate all of that too.
Hey Imho,
“which is actually ok and shows he is not vain”
How absolutely wonderful. These “nice” LOs are a curse. The fact that he is going to want to discuss the event with you melts the heart as well. Perhaps its just as well that you weren’t there in person.
F2f has certainly entrenched things for me because I see that LO is objectively a nice person, eager to please and keep everyone happy. I think my reactions to him have stabilised, they are more objective, but now I just think objectively that he is very nice so it’s sort of one step forward and two steps back. Crikey.
Hi Bewitched, yes these “nice LOs” are very annoying. They need to turn ugly once in a while. Ugly, in every sense of the word please.
It’s a bit worrying the length of some people’s LEs that I’m reading here the last couple of days.
5 years for you, Crikey indeed ! I’m at 2, and only the last year when I knew I had an issue a few days after a f2f.
So yes maybe it’s good I didn’t see him f2f this time. Thanks
Hi Mila,
I would congratulate you on hitting the big time but somebody else **cough, cough, cough** (I think her name might be Imho?) stole my line… 😊
Wishing you well in your recovery. 🙂
Sammy and all,
I, so to say, went down in LwL history for the dubious reason of not being able of getting rid of a ridiculously unnecessary limerence in one swoop🙈
Well, there must be worse reasons to go down in history.
At the moment I‘m quite annoyed at the whole LE.
So much effort and energy wasted.
I‘m again in a resentful state of mind with LO. Have been on a work trip and am being all „I’ve got friends and colleagues who are all more considerate and charming to me than you“. Which is true, but it’s also true that in the end, he’s still one of my most loyal friends. I‘m just not sure if that’s because he‘s really special for me, or if he‘s just not very flexible in his mind and stays in friendship forever with whomever he got into one because it’s too much risk and effort to make new friends. (an accusation one can only understand if one knows him).
But I think I should heed Lost in Space‘s words, swallow my resentments and make the last memories of him (living in my town before moving away)good ones.
Maybe I‘ll regret it otherwise. It’s so much more satisfying to bring something to a peaceful end.
Sammy, sorry if I stole your thunder.
More importantly I think you need to get some lozenges to help with that cough you have 😉
Hi Mila,
“So the photos aren’t that flattering? Very good:)”
Haha I have had this happen. I clung on to an unflattering photo as a kind of therapy
– much of my LE relates to physical desire for this man that others probably dont notice at all. I have been on holidays, so away from LwL, and noticed one or two people who looked like him. Its definitely physical attraction even though he is a lot older. It’s also an emotional same wavelength thing as he is very warm (in person), which I really like in a person.
So yeah, unflattering pics of him are gold dust in terms of recovery….
Hi Bewitched,
I‘ve experienced that unflattering photos seem to help in that moment, but can be unhelpful longterm- I‘m talking about setting up an unfavorable picture of LO in your mind and then, when seeing him in person, being surprised at him being better-looking and nicer than this picture, which undoes all good work.
Better to disappointed when seeing him in person…
@Imho & Mila.
“More importantly I think you need to get some lozenges to help with that cough you have 😉”
Oui, Oui, Mademoiselle. You are too kind. 🙂
Or, in the language of this week’s reluctant star: “Tausend Dank”. (A thousand thanks). 😜
Hey Mila,
You are right, of course, the unflattering photo is only a temporary solution, until one meets f2f. I like this silly technique because I go long periods without seeing my LO in person, so it can be effective. For people who never see them again I imagine it can be even more effective. But those in constant contact / torment with LOs need other approaches.
I hope that you are doing better and better – not much longer to go now? Although you will need to dvelop a new texting style, more appropriate to changed circumstances (I can imagine this will be tricky and it seems to be the thing most occupying your thoughts now?).
Maybe having him there as placeholder (selfish though that might seem) will prevent another person glimmering for you? This is the bigger danger, I think, no?
Sorry if I am intruding and please do not feel that you need to reply. These are difficult issues to confront about ourselves.
My disappointment at reading this week’s blog was acute. Due to my inability to consider this LE even close to being over on *any* criteria…
Hi Bewitched,
I‘m actually not sure how long, since it’s not yet certain when they will move. He‘ll throw a goodbye-party at work in a few days, and am not sure until when he‘ll be in town after that. I‘ll be gone most of August and it could be that they‘ve already moved when I‘ll get back. As usual, he doesn’t provide information by himself. I guess I‘ll ask him on the party.
I also guess that the texting style will change by itself once we don’t see each other regularly or at all. It already changed. I think I can leave it safely to time and no contact. Or shouldn’t I?
I cannot imagine myself pining for years for him without having actual f2f warm contact. It‘ll all peter out a bit and we‘ll be able to see each other about once a year without any limerence b..shit.
Concerning the placeholder, I don’t want that. It’s stagnating and unnatural. I want to get rid of the whole business.
I think I’m finally in a place where I recognize the glimmer or even the need for a glimmer immediately, and while temptation can be strong, I think now I’m much more capable to stop myself than I was ever before.
That’s one advantage of very, very few of having had several LEs instead of only one- I can see the similarities and how it plays out in the end, and finally learning from it (I hope).
Bewitched, time might provide you with several exit points too, when you are ready to see them, I guess.
How can you tell that you re not over them?
When, after 19 months of NC , you still have intrusive thoughts about them and you ache for them.
When you know they have become a ghost walking besides you everywhere you go.
When every single thing you see or hear reminds you of them.
Wishing you all a wonderful weekend.
Exactly that, Nisor!
Today’s blog just makes me feel worse. I should stop reading but I seem to be addicted to LwL after being here for several years. I have not seen LO for over two years and our last message exchange, instigated by me, was seven months ago.
I could understand it if I was obliged to see LO, or if I was actively trying to sustain a friendship, or the memories of the friendship we had. I am not, because I know that would be delusional and selfish.
Wishing you a good weekend too.
f
Yes, Frederico, my friend,
Also, you know you’re not over them when you constantly fight and struggle with the temptation to reach out either by text, phone call, a letter or just simply a card to say hello…
It takes discipline, courage and strength not to give in. But we keep on trying , no other path forward.
Wishing you the very best always. Nisor
That’s a great post, Nisor, and I’m going to paste it, along with one that Mila wrote a while ago, in a sort of brief journal I’m keeping.
I’ve been very close to temptation this week, for some reason, and sometimes it feels as if it’s killing me.
f
@frederico.
“Today’s blog just makes me feel worse. I should stop reading but I seem to be addicted to LwL after being here for several years.”
Aw, frederico. Sorry to hear that you’re not feeling great. 😢
I would offer you a handkerchief, but after what happened last time … maybe not. 🙄
Oh look – I have this imaginary, invisible hankie in my other pocket. You’re welcome to keep this imaginary, invisible hankie. No backsies, though. I don’t even want imaginary, invisible hankies back – not after learning what you do with them. 😉
Big hugs, buddy. Take care, eh? 😛
P.S. The horrible “yuck-blah-I-feel-like-a-member-of-the-walking-dead” feeling does eventually dissolve with time.
Sammy
Such a great message, thank you.
“I would offer you a handkerchief, but after what happened last time … maybe not. 🙄“
I found that hilarious! I am packing a case to go to the seaside for a few days and your humour has spurred me on. What to pack? I used to travel for work all the time and now I can’t decide what to take. The invisible hankie is definitely on the list now.
Big hugs to you too. Your P.S. is poignant too. I’m not sure what’s got into me but I will shake it off.
Take care of yourself. Your humour is like gold dust.
f
Frederico,
I wish you a relaxed and beautiful time at the seaside!
Pack light stuff for the heat and one warm sweater and one light rain coat.
Although I have no idea where you are going.
Think of medication, also for headaches or stomach issues, and sunscreen.
Also, consider taking your own pillow if you‘ve got room in your suitcase.
I‘m quite envious.
Thanks for the packing tips, Mila x
Carrying out analysis after LO contact. I almost always feel like it went brilliantly or terribly, no happy medium. And I question what I could have done and should do next time. LO never does anything real to prompt these extremes (definitely not the ‘went terribly’ one) – she is remarkably consistent towards me, which is equally a curse and a blessing. My brain does all the monkey work in the analysis after – it is little to do with how things really went.
Even after the level and extremes of this analysis have simmered down from the height of limerence, I/we don’t normally do much or any of it about our interactions with a platonic friend. So if we’re doing any level of it with LO, its sign it’s not over it and it isn’t a safe platonic friendship.
@LIm-a-rant.
“Carrying out analysis after LO contact. I almost always feel like it went brilliantly or terribly, no happy medium. And I question what I could have done and should do next time.”
Yes, as you’ve observed, the limerent response to LO is always disproportionate to the situation at hand. E.g. if they make you feel good, they make you feel a little too good for what actually transpired. If they make you feel bad, again, they make you feel too bad for what the interaction actually was. Your brain is seriously overreacting to this person, and treating them as if they have magic powers. 😉
@Sammy
“if they make you feel good, they make you feel a little too good for what actually transpired. If they make you feel bad, again, they make you feel too bad for what the interaction actually was”
Sort of, but what I’ve got more aware of lately is that it is nothing that (current) LO is actually doing to *make* me feel anything. My brain is doing the lot! Obvious once you know it.
Short of slightly showing the standard better and worse general moods on different days that every one of us goes through, my LO is pretty much completely consistent towards me. It is part of why she is so endearing – always kind and open to me, even when not to other people. If things go just a little worse in an interaction, my brain amps it up to 200% and I ruminate that I may lose that consistency, but it never happens and I doubt she even gives it a second thought.
I have a past comparator point of reference with a narcissistic LO. This process of the brain amping up everything in both directions was many many times worse then. But once I came to realise she was a narc, it was massively easier to let her go, than it is with the ‘Good LO’ type. NC ended up feeling like a blessing, not a chore.
@Lim-a-rant.
“Sort of, but what I’ve got more aware of lately is that it is nothing that (current) LO is actually doing to *make* me feel anything. My brain is doing the lot! Obvious once you know it.”
Ah, okay. Do you feel like you’re riding a rollercoaster of emotions, and your LO’s behaviour is not or is no longer necessarily causing the up and downs? Do you kind of feel the train has left the station of its own accord and neither you nor your LO are necessarily the driver? That could be a sign you’re deep in the famous “altered state”. 🙂
I agree with you if LOs are genuinely good people, or even just average-but-oblivious people, it’s a bit unfair to blame them for all the inner turmoil limerents sometimes seem to experience. Also, if the LO is a good person, and the limerence is still torture, then that kind of suggests that the infatuation is more about the limerent. 🤔
@Sammy
“… then that kind of suggests that the infatuation is more about the limerent. 🤔”
I guess by definition it is *always* about the limerent to a good extent? But I do think yes you’re right about it in my LE. Its about how I deal with an attraction to a third party whilst I’m in a LTR that I don’t want to leave – and all the mental turbulence and contradictions that creates.
I looked at DrL’s “altered state” post. A lot of how Tennov describes that state is true of me herr, but not all.
One part is it says the altered-state limerent makes decisions that seem outside their control and they live to regret and feel embarrassed about – a few recent posters here have described their moments like this. Mine is more like that I can watch my altered-state persona from a slight distance threatening to make a bad decision, but usually catch it and reel him back in. Certainly where it comes to the decisions with potential big consequences, even if not all the more mundane day to day ones. In neuroscience speak, my executive just about still has control.
I think I am past the worst threat of the ‘altered state’ phase now I have come to understand limerence as a concept better.
But Sammy I know you like a long analytical post, and I really like your train analogy 🚉😀 So please stay with me while I play it through:
– station is my brain at peace with SO before all this. Admission – weather there was a bit turbulent, but nothing that couldn’t pass or that SO and I couldn’t reason out
– glimmer passes between LO and me, which pushes the train into motion along the track
– LO’s motivations who knows?! Likeliest – doesn’t even want the train moving, let alone to be steering it. Or if she wants it moving, then only in predictable straight lines with lots of stops and options to turn back. Without neccessarily knowing it though, her actions help keep it moving
– I didn’t want to be steering either. But now the train is moving, someone has to try and steer, and it is a choice between me or a self-driving train
– steering it is rocky, it is bouncing all over the tracks but I still have enough control to prevent it careering off the tracks
– I’d like to steer it smoothly back in the direction it came from until I reach the station, or maybe it goes a circular route back there, but I don’t yet know how to
– It might be easier to do if I metaphorically threw LO off the train (NC), but I both can’t and won’t right now. So I hope to find a way to do it with her sitting quietly in the back carriage with no feelings hurt (yup, I can hear myself and know really that it’s nearly impossible!)
– if I can’t achieve that, I’d prefer to keep steering the train on its bumpy ride for now, and trust that I will find my way home, than lose control (disclose) and let it totally steer itself to heaven knows where.
I had fun playing that through and it does help me to do that. I also hope it helps you better understand where I’m at with the LE and how I’m coping. It does create a lot of inner conflict and turmoil carrying it around. But I’m OK, and doing that beats what any impulsive bad decision could do to some combo of me, SO and LO.
@Lim-a-rant.
“I guess by definition it is *always* about the limerent to a good extent?”
I DO agree that limerence is always about the limerent. As does Lucy Bain, a neuroscientist colleague of Dr. L’s. It’s about our own brain’s ability to feel euphoria and fixate on certain things and so on. You can’t fall limerent without having the right genetic predisposition.
Having said that, some types of LOs might be better at “breadcrumbing” than others. I guess, if the limerent decides to ignore their executive brain function and just take all cues from a breadcrumbing LO, the limerent will be stuck in limerence forever. (The LO will never say “I want you” and the LO will never say “I don’t want you”, so the limerent is doomed to languish in limbo). 😉
I don’t think my LO wanted sexual or romantic validation from me. I don’t think he was aware of the possible extent of my feelings in that area. However, I do think he wanted some more generic kind of validation from me, and I was happy to give him that validation. But the addiction I developed had less to do with his validation-seeking and more to do with the fact I actually LIKED MYSELF when I was around him. So I think, when I was around him, I felt free to be a more authentic version of myself, and that was heady stuff. He showed me the charming, attractive person I could potentially BECOME.
Dr. L. doesn’t think limerence is caused by repression. The research doesn’t support the common therapeutic view that: “Oh, limerents are just people who are sexually repressed/emotionally repressed”. But I was quite bottled up when I was younger. I was repressed, but repression wasn’t necessarily the main driver of my limerence. I think the main driver of my limerence was I met someone who really sparkled for me on account of his seemingly carefree personality, and made me realise how emotionally unfulfilled I felt in my life.
I did have horrible mood swings through my teen years and early twenties, which seemed to be related to limerence. However, limerence only became unbearable for me after my LO left my life for good. So I guess I reached a stage where I was emotionally dependent on validation (from him) and basically there was no way I was going to get any more validation from him. He had up and left.
He was very good at validation (giving it to me as well as taking it from me). He did make me feel extremely safe and loved. I kind of reached a point where I needed him just to … stabilise my mood? He, on the other hand, really needed to concentrate on his own life. It’s a lot of ask another person to stabilise one emotionally. If the shoe was on the other foot, I would have bailed too. 🙄🤣😁
Limerence is interesting because it initially feels like a train ride one is taking with LO. Then, after the train has left the station, one might discover that one is alone on the train. The LO never hopped on the train. The LO wasn’t as heavily invested in the “shared fantasy” as the limerent, although they might have played along for quite some time. It’s a rude shock to the system to learn that one’s LO didn’t hop on the train, and one is going on a solo trip into the unknown i.e. the hitherto unplumbed depths of one’s own Unconscious Mind. 😉
Dorothy Tennov thought desire for limerence is a precondition for limerence. Do limerents dream about finding a “perfect soulmate” I wonder well before experiencing limerence? Could limerence simply be defined as a “perfect soulmate fantasy reinforced by hormones”?
When one’s brain is really drugged up with all those limerent chemicals, the natural world is crazy-beautiful, drenched in unusual colours, saturated in brilliant light. (I think every lovesick limerent should visit the beach or the mountains at least once, just to experience the natural landscape in a magical way). However, not being able to calm down and relax at will – that’s painful to experience for too long a time.
I actually went to the beach with my family during the most painful part of my limerence. We stayed in this gorgeous hotel. I felt incredibly annoyed at my father, who was my roommate, because he wanted to talk about “life on the farm” while we drifted off to sleep and I was NOT in the mood for more boring farm stories from his childhood that I had already heard. The only way I could calm down was to draw an extremely hot bath in a real bathtub – the kind of bathtubs they only have in gorgeous hotels. Immersed in a hot bath, I got about twenty minutes’ respite from intrusive thoughts. 😁
I can understand why couples in mutual limerence with each other (and married to each other) might pick constant fights with each other. In the altered state, it’s just unbearable to experience any kind of distance from one’s partner, and the constant fights are a way of enforcing closeness, even if constant fighting isn’t healthy.
I don’t really like long, analytical posts for the sake of long, analytical posts. It’s just the way my brain works. I’ve always wanted to know why “falling in love” (a good thing presumably?) make some people “act crazy” (limerence/person addiction?). 🙂
I always detested my mother’s “hysteria” regarding my father. Now, I think her “hysteria” was nothing more than a manifestation of limerence within a committed relationship -a feeling of craving more and not being able to get more. It’s hard to condemn someone (i.e. my mother) for disturbing emotional outbursts when I know I share an identical genetic vulnerability (i.e. towards person addiction). Very much a case of: “There but for the grace of God, go I”. 😇
My mother described her marriage to Dad as a form of purgatory. But it was actually a really good marriage. Dad was 100% faithful and extremely hardworking. Mum’s never-ending state of internal torment was caused by untreated limerence I think. In other words, winning the prize (LO’s love) doesn’t always end the torment. 🤔
„ Limerence is interesting because it initially feels like a train ride one is taking with LO. Then, after the train has left the station, one might discover that one is alone on the train. The LO never hopped on the train. The LO wasn’t as heavily invested in the “shared fantasy” as the limerent, although they might have played along for quite some time. It’s a rude shock to the system to learn that one’s LO didn’t hop on the train, and one is going on a solo trip into the unknown i.e. the hitherto unplumbed depths of one’s own Unconscious Mind. 😉“
Fantastic picture!
Agree with you @Mila, 100%..
That Sammy knows exactly what’s going on. Such an inquisitive One.. 😄👏🏻👏🏻
I agree, Sammy does know his stuff! This statement especially made me sit up: “However, limerence only became unbearable for me after my LO left my life for good. So I guess I reached a stage where I was emotionally dependent on validation (from him) and basically there was no way I was going to get any more validation from him.”
I’m a little worried about how my “transfered” limerence will work out. I’m not limerent for my transferee but I’m getting increasingly dependent on the validation. I’ve tried to envision how this will play out, and the only way I see it is that one of us will get tired of it (the constant texting)/sidetracked and the other will be left expecting the validation that won’t come anymore. And I’m worried “the other” will be me – who’s proven her capabilities for limerence. 🙈 I’ve even voiced my concerns – of building mutual attachment/dependency – but he doesn’t seem bothered. He just says he has no intention of ending contact.
Trifles
When I realized I wanted to transfer the care and attention that I feel I need to give women who I perceive are “in peril” to Lady Friend and not the attachment I was okay. Yes, she is quite capable of taking care of herself. No she doesn’t mind that I go out of my way to do chivalrous things for her, same as I do Momma.
I don’t let a “thank you” for opening a door for her get to my head. I am doing what I was raised to do, and she is showing gratitude. Nothing more.
While Miss Lovisa is the resident transference expert, to me it feels like wanting to transfer that care to someone else, but not the attachment. Much like nurses, midwifes, foster care; they give the children the care and meet their needs without (theoretically) the attachment. At least that’s how I used my transference. Lady Friend is someone I enjoy spending time with and I like doing things for her. But I don’t have the unhealthy attachment that I did in limerence. While I like the vocal gratitude I get for the things that I do for her I don’t crave it like I did in limerence. I do it because that’s what I was raised to do as a man.
Adam, thanks for your response! If I am reading you right, it seems you are transferring the giving (your attention), but not the taking (which would lead to attachment). I.e. you are not dependent on their response to your caring for them in various ways. You are happy just to give the attention without expecting anything in return.
I don’t think I am capable of that. I am the first to admit that I need a lot of attention right now, so I am taking all I can get. Hence I get attached.
Or I could have been happy giving attention and support (he was my project for awhile), but I don’t know how long that would have lasted if it had stayed as a one-sided project.
After consciously and bravely jumping off such an illusionary train, limerents find themselves left hauntingly alone in a barren wildness with no train or bus station in sight… They need to explore a new/healthy path on foot, with the cane of LwL… They need to stumble/walk step by step until they build their own safe, steady hut, INDEPENDENTLY…
Snow, you are right of course. But it’s very lonely at the abandoned station in the middle of the wilderness. Why can’t I pass the time by talking to the other lost soul there? Maybe we can hitch a ride together… 😜
@Trifles,
A couple of questions here:
1. “Abandoned” by whom/what (I said “jump off” — getting off on one’s own efforts)? Did we “belong” to our LO? ( my cptsd, a specific emotional abandonment issue from Parents, was tied to my “surrogate-parental” LE.)
2. Yes, there are other journeyers in the wilderness, but ask ourselves, “Do I just chat with them to share my experiences and current situations, or do I mentally/emotionally rely/lean on them — their responses, in order to distract my previous unhealed LE pains?” “Will I be okay if those fellow journeyers are not around or not-responsive?”
If we are unable to bear our aloneness comfortably and confidently, how are we going to truly grow in mental strength, stamina, and personalized wisdom? How are we going to fend off future LOs/LEs?
@Trifles,
“However, limerence only became unbearable for me after my LO left my life for good. So I guess I reached a stage where I was emotionally dependent on validation”
This statement resonated with me very much also. I think once LO moved buildings and I couldn’t see her or get her attention anymore, my heart sank and I was anxious all the time. Like working there didn’t even matter anymore. I needed her breadcrumbs like Crack. It was that intense. It’s sad but I think it hit me harder than losing my own Mother. Never cried so hard or so much in my life.. 😭
Interesting to see how this train analogy has taken off. I love all the talk of abandoned deserted stations etc. Lovisa suggested transference as a solution to my (SO/LO) situation a while ago. But what to do if LO is the only passenger that the conductor can see on the train? (Assume SO before LO = the original station we want to return to – so this is a question about the journey not the destination)
@Trifles.
“I’m a little worried about how my “transfered” limerence will work out. I’m not limerent for my transferee but I’m getting increasingly dependent on the validation. I’ve tried to envision how this will play out…”
Maybe you’re not experiencing “limerence” per se, but just a regular infatuation? I mean, have you ever had a romantic attachment previously that turned out painful? If infatuation has never proven painful for you before, then perhaps you don’t have anything to worry about regardless of whether you transfer feelings or not? 🙂
Lucy Bain recently dropped two new wonderful articles on her site Neurosparkle. Lucy appears to believe there are two kinds of infatuation:
(1) Mutual infatuation that is net-positive, enriches life
(2) A second form of infatuation that begins with an amazing high and ends up in painful dependency.
Here is a link to the more pertinent article if anyone wants to read it: https://neurosparkle.com/the-stages-of-limerence-from-sparkling-euphoria-to-living-hell/
Lucy summarises the four stages of the second infatuation type as follows (you’ll read the same information in more detail in the article):
(1) Initial Glimmer (Ooh, somebody interesting!)
(2) Honeymoon Phase (Everything’s Grand!)
(3) Crystallised Limerence (Person addiction, highs and lows)
(4) Dependence Stage (My life is a nightmare – help!)
(The irreverent commentary in brackets is mostly mine, although Lucy does describe stage three as addiction, with highs and lows).
We could call the first kind of infatuation “Infatuation Pattern A” and we could call the second kind of infatuation “Infatuation Pattern B”. Or we could call first type “healthy infatuation” and second type “unhealthy infatuation”, though the latter does sound a little judgy.
Both forms of infatuations would probably start out on a very optimistic note. And both forms of infatuation would involve thinking about the loved person an awful lot. So, in the early stages, it might be hard to tell healthy and unhealthy infatuation apart.
Perhaps the flaw in Dorothy Tennov’s research is that while Tennov’s informants described both patterns, Tennov herself did not distinguish between patterns. Perhaps Tennov inadvertently mixed the two patterns together in her head and in her research, and assumed that both patterns were describing the same experience?
Other researchers have looked into limerence since Tennov, but not in great depth. The work of a researcher such as Helen Fisher strikes me as describing Infatuation Pattern A (what most people would just call healthy infatuation or standard romantic love). The work of a researcher such as Albert Wakin addresses Infatuation Pattern B i.e. infatuation resulting in something more painful and problematic.
Tennov did say, however, that in order for limerence to develop fully, there needs to be some “break” in the connection between the two parties. The experience somehow isn’t perfect, and this allows uncertainty to seep in. Maybe this rupture in connection primarily happens in infatuations that could be called Infatuation Pattern B?
If Lovisa finds she can comfortably transfer feelings to different LOs, she may be experiencing Infatuation Pattern A (healthy infatuation). If someone’s pattern is Infatuation Pattern B, transference may not be a good strategy, because every infatuation will end in painful dependency, no matter who the infatuation is transferred to. 🤔
Sammy,
“If Lovisa finds she can comfortably transfer feelings to different LOs, she may be experiencing Infatuation Pattern A (healthy infatuation). ”
Isn’t it unhealthy by nature if one or both parties has an SO? Is the infatuation just going to turn into limerence? Shouldn’t the questions be … Why am I becoming limerent? How do I stop becoming limerent? I mean that for any person, single or partnered up, who has been serially limerent and suffered with the limerence?
I think the only way transference can work is if the limerent is single and the LO is either not available or not interested and the limerent transfers those feelings to someone who is single, available and interested.
Marcia, I agree totally. Little point transferring it if you have an SO – better to think about why, and how to redirect the energy to the SO. Otherwise as a limerent you just artificially force the same problem on yourself with a different LO. And lets face it, our LO is our LO not randomly, but for some good reason, so its better to reflect on why.
In defence of Lovisa when she said to me about transferring though – she said it in the spirit of helping me with “how do I get through this with my LO as a friend?”. I am very grateful for her cheerleading, and Mila’s, about the possibility of that happening.
I have likely mixed up my LO projecting very strong and healthy friendship signs as being something more, so my task is to unscramble and reverse that thinking. Contra popular wisdom on this site, that’s something I believe I can do somehow, and an outcome I will fight and take difficult internal feelings for. I admit it is unusual to think I can get that outcome, but like Mila among others here, my LO was a long term friend before the LE and I am not ready to give that up. Out of interest, is anyone else here in this position and how are they dealing with it? I do know I could be accused of ‘bargaining’ but I really feel it isn’t that in this case. To blow it up with LO through either disclosure or NC feels like a decision I’d really regret.
But Marcia I do agree that in my case interrogating why the LE has happened with this person at this time is a better solution to both problems (getting past it, and stopping it happening again), than trying to transfer. It it totally unrealistic for me to transfer anyway (see my previous comment about trains).
Sammy – thanks for the link and your further dissection after the train posts. The bit about LO making you feel you could be completely yourself just chimes so much.
@Marcia.
“Isn’t it [limerence] unhealthy by nature if one or both parties has an SO? Is the infatuation just going to turn into limerence? Shouldn’t the questions be … Why am I becoming limerent? How do I stop becoming limerent? I mean that for any person, single or partnered up, who has been serially limerent and suffered with the limerence?”
That is an excellent commentary, Marcia! Where would we be without you around to ask all the HARD questions?” 🙂
My own private definition of limerence is: “A love that never feels or becomes comfortable for the person doing the loving.” My motive for overcoming limerence is to enjoy the level of mental health that I personally wish to enjoy. For me, happiness and dependency don’t mix.
Perhaps there is no objective difference between “healthy infatuation” and “unhealthy infatuation”? Perhaps “healthy infatuation” simply stops at stage two, i.e. honeymoon phase, and then transitions smoothly to secure attachment rooted in reality? Perhaps “unhealthy infatuation” is only unhealthy because the infatuation is allowed to progress to stages three and four? If commitment can be secured very soon after or during the honeymoon stage, limerence is unlikely to come about if we’re defining limerence as some form of nightmarish emotional pain.
You’re absolutely right about the dangers of infatuation turning into addiction for people with SOs or a partnered LO. The SO/SO of LO functions as a “rupture” in the growing emotional connection between limerent and LO, a real and/or imaginary barrier to consummation. Uncertainty is then allowed to build, and full-blown obsession may result. Constantly transferring to new LOs may prevent immediate catastrophe, but it’s also just kicking the tin can down the road. (One delays dealing with the problem, but the problem remains).
Lucy’s other new article is actually about how people can still feel limerent while in a committed relationship with LO, and information from that article too has obviously invisibly informed my thinking.
“I think the only way transference can work is if the limerent is single and the LO is either not available or not interested and the limerent transfers those feelings to someone who is single, available and interested.”
Yes, that all makes sense. The main point of my post was to get people to think about whether they’ve had a history of infatuations that turned painful. I.e. does everyone at LwL agree that Lucy’s stages 3 and 4 have actually been a part of their limerence experience? Or do some people only see limerence as “romantic love” and an experience that doesn’t cause pain, even if unrequited?
Interesting points! Neither of us are available for an actual romantic relationship, if nothing else then for the distance alone. And I know that life happens in between. That’s why I am playing out the ending scenarios in my head. But Sammy’s references give me hope that the ending doesn’t have to be painful. It can be a “net-positive experience that enriches life” for the both of us.
And thinking objectively, I don’t think that some people’s infatuations always turn limerent. That would be a terrible fate to have! But the reason I worry is that there clearly is a gap I am trying to fill, and hence the limerence emerged in the first place. That’s why I feel I’m still susceptible to it.
MJ, back to the train reference – it seems you were thrown off the train (i.e. NC didn’t happen because of your decision to hop off but due to outside circumstances). And I think that’s why being at the deserted station seems even more lonely. That doesn’t mean you can’t walk out of there on your own however!
Snow, yes, I jumped off myself (only the station is abandoned, not me 😊). But I am trying to balance out with your point 2.: not using the other travelers as a crutch but walking on my own two feet.
Trifles – I hope you don’t mind me asking, (I am not totally familiar with your story) – now you have kind of transferred, what has happened with previous LO? Are you NC, or muddling along some other way, and how is it?
Lim-a-rant, no problem! To summarize shortly: My previous LO (call him LO2) was someone I met at his neck of the woods (so at quite a distance from where I live). Thus the LE also played out at a distance – the reason I stress this is because it makes NC much easier, even though social media exists and is very addictive in itself. I went NC 4 months ago and basically slammed the door – just a little – on my way out.
The good news is that I’m pretty much over it! The LE lasted about 6 months. I do still check his infrequent WhatsApp status updates sometimes but since I’m not tempted to reach out, I allow myself that (against conventional wisdom).
As for the transferee – the other reason I am worried about my transference turning into limerence is because he threw some extra obstacles in the way. He has known that in a couple of months I have a trip which will send me fairly close to where he lives. (Yes, this one is at a distance too. I seem to like that – and textual relationships!) And he suddenly stated that he could not meet me because he “couldn’t be trusted to keep his hands off me”. (He wasn’t being flirtatious but serious.) Apparently he’s not giving me much credit either! But that’s another story. 😉
Anyway, now we have these disclosed desires and barriers all thrown into the mix at the same time! If anything can set off limerence, that can. Showing me something I could have and then saying “but you can’t have it”. I try to think I’m above such childishness of just wanting what I can’t have, but I’m not sure about myself…
However, that comment came a little while ago, and we seem to have moved past that and returned to our purely textual relationship (friendship). So all is good..?
“I think the only way transference can work is if the limerent is single and the LO is either not available or not interested and the limerent transfers those feelings to someone who is single, available and interested.”
I have had some events in life in the past few weeks that have been very stressful and trying but ended up being me “rescuing” Momma from having to face the events herself head on. I got in front of her and fought the bull off myself. While I nearly got gored; better me than her. Felt nice to be the hero in the aftermath.
I thought about calling my sister in law one recent evening for something actually legit. Than I I thought “is it an excuse to talk about Lady Friend?” It is certainty a very difficult balance to maintain. I think in a fulfilled and healthy LTR it is possible for opposite sex friendships. But even than …..
One of such trying things has been pain in her right shoulder/arm that we have been seeing a doctor for. Just as I was falling asleep last night, I can tell that it was really causing her pain, since she couldn’t even lay down. I told her to scoot away from the headboard and got behind her with my legs around her and massaged her shoulder and arm to try and ease the pain. When I finally got it eased down enough we could go to sleep she said “sorry if my sounds of pain didn’t sound like sounds of pain.” To which I replied “It’s okay. I told him to mind his own damn business.” 🙂 A pleasant evening for another wise stressful last week or so. But damn am I going to be tired today.
Lim-a-rant,
“But Marcia I do agree that in my case interrogating why the LE has happened with this person at this time is a better solution to both problems (getting past it, and stopping it happening again), than trying to transfer. It it totally unrealistic for me to transfer anyway (see my previous comment about trains).”
As I wrote to Nisor on the post about polyamory, I think having attractions and crushes on other people is probably normal. Whether the person is single or partnered. But limerence, to me, implies getting obsessive for a long time, and I think limerence has something more to do with the limerent themselves (which has been written about many times on this blog).
Someone else wrote this … the limerent is trying to fill a hole. That’s the “thing” to dissect. What hole? The solution is not to plaster over the hole with another LO.
Sammy,
“Where would we be without you around to ask all the HARD questions?” 🙂”
Probably happier. 🙂
“Constantly transferring to new LOs may prevent immediate catastrophe, but it’s also just kicking the tin can down the road. (One delays dealing with the problem, but the problem remains).”
That’s exactly what I was saying. I think the bigger question is … why do I have to have an LO at all? Why do I feel the need to have someone to obsess over and occupy myself with? That, I think, is really the million dollar question. Particular for serial limerents. I have asked these questions of myself.
@Trifles
MJ, back to the train reference – it seems you were thrown off the train (i.e. NC didn’t happen because of your decision to hop off but due to outside circumstances)
I see how it could be interpreted that way. Sammy makes so many good and interesting points. To me though, the thought of finally realizing I was on that train alone hit me hard.
I went months believing I had the most perfect LO, who for sure felt the same about me. That she was just this shy office girl, who was socially awkward and didn’t know what to say to me. Once I realized it was all a lie, I sank into the worst depression ever. She was never on the train to begin with.
“I’m not limerent for my transferee but I’m getting increasingly dependent on the validation.”
I liked how you worded that statement because I feel like I am in that almost needy place with my Lady Friend. I get that way because I feel like she makes me feel human again. I’ve actually begun working on less interaction with her this week because I am afraid I will leak too many obvious signs I’m interested. (Like I’m good for doing.) I find I am better off with her when I try to play a balancing act. Almost like I go into hiding and then come back out, either in person or thru txt.
Sorry I wasn’t involved in this discussion about transference. I want to respond to something that Sammy said.
“ If Lovisa finds she can comfortably transfer feelings to different LOs, she may be experiencing Infatuation Pattern A (healthy infatuation). If someone’s pattern is Infatuation Pattern B, transference may not be a good strategy, because every infatuation will end in painful dependency, no matter who the infatuation is transferred to. ”
Sammy, I think there could be something to this statement. My experience with LO2 was definitely limerence and not just infatuation. It was awful! The intrusive thoughts were awful! My experience with LO3 has been mostly pleasant. I often wonder if I traded limerence for infatuation that faded into friendship. I suspect my use of antidepressants played a role in this. I became limerent for LO2 while I was quitting antidepressants. I think my serotonin levels contributed to my vulnerability for limerence. I had other withdrawal symptoms, too. Since it’s been a few years, I think my body adjusted and I don’t have those symptoms anymore including limerence. That is my best guess anyway. Also, I suspect that my running keeps me grounded and contributes to my mental stability.
As far as transference goes, I am a big fan! I think it is important to avoid daydreaming about the new LO so that you don’t develop intrusive thoughts.
I hope that makes sense.
@Sammy – on your points about Lucy’s article. I think I’m basically agreeing with you here … but I think the same person can be capable of 1. having the healthy infatuation pattern and missing stages 3 and 4 by moving seamlessly to consummation / a relationship and 2. On another day, with another person, gravitating to the unhealthy pattern (stage 3 or 4) through some combo of barriers, uncertainty or rejection.
The only thing I don’t agree with in the article is she says stage 3 to stage 4 happens in a matter of weeks. I’ve more than once experienced limbo at stage 3 for many months, which could turn into years according to some here.
You asked somewhere further up the thread (and I paraphrase) essentially what makes limerents go from healthy relating to going a bit mad. I think it’s the fear of losing all the colour in their world (even if false) that they feel at stage 2. Ironically they have more chance of losing it by going mad than by keeping on doing what they did originally. But on some raw level (and we need a neuroscientist to come in here), limerents’ brains can’t get that.
@Lim-a-rant.
I’m going to start calling myself Sammy01 since there’s apparently another Sammy in our midst, and things might get confusing. 🙂
I agree with you that maybe someone can have a limerent episode that plays out really well, and doesn’t cause distress – an overall positive experience, if you will. And I believe the same person could, as you say, have another episode with a different LO that leads to distress because maybe life circumstances have changed or maybe because the LO behaves in an odd way.
I think someone with a really positive experience might yearn to have another really positive experience. Once tasting ecstasy, one wants to keep tasting ecstasy, right? 🙂
“The only thing I don’t agree with in the article is she says stage 3 to stage 4 happens in a matter of weeks. I’ve more than once experienced limbo at stage 3 for many months, which could turn into years according to some here.”
Does Lucy suggest people move from glimmer/honeymoon to addiction/dependency in a matter of weeks? That’s very interesting. Or does she suggest people move from addiction to dependency in a matter of weeks?
Like you, I spent … probably years … in person addiction/highs and lows. At last, something in me broke and I was fully dependent. So I think people can spend significant time in stage three before progressing to stage four. But when the change happens, it could happen overnight and catch one off-guard. Also, I think limerents start avoiding their real lives when caught up in the highs and lows.
“You asked somewhere further up the thread (and I paraphrase) essentially what makes limerents go from healthy relating to going a bit mad. I think it’s the fear of losing all the colour in their world (even if false) that they feel at stage 2.”
I’m not sure if limerents ever relate healthily to LOs. But I think limerents can start making a lot of positive changes to themselves during the honeymoon phase because they have so much hope in their hearts for the future. The world does seem more and more colourful.
I wasn’t afraid of the world losing all colour. I think I delusionally believed that the world had always been colourful, and it was just other people who were blind. I think I felt like I was grasping for something precious – (not necessarily LO, but I guess it must have been LO or LO’s love or something LO-related) – and I was afraid that other people would prevent me from grasping that precious thing.
I think your observation that it’s the honeymoon stage that makes life dance in colour is a good one. I hadn’t thought of that. 🙂
– Feeling the need to drop LO into the conversation with friends (who don’t know about him or about the LE) – and getting a secret thrill about it. Maybe hoping to be found out – or just to get to talk about him.
– Having the tiniest bit of hope that LO might be missing you (during NC) and that it’s just taking him some time to realize it! 😂
“Having the tiniest bit of hope that LO might be missing you (during NC) and that it’s just taking him some time to realize it! “ that would be so good it would make my heart bit, but I don’t think LO cares at all
Your thought here is quite accurate, speculating from the pieces of your LE situation yourself has presented; otherwise, even with 0.1% of care, your LO would NOT block you online!
Body and mind are connected affecting each other intrinsically; it’s all natural that your muscles and bones felt the deep pain when being so harshly rejected. If I were you, I would examine thoroughly whether I’d been hurtfully rejected in the past (especially in early childhood, maybe forgotten) by a dear/closed one.
A recovering path begins with holding zero hope/fantasy for LO’s possible reciprocation, particularly verbal ones that would soon or later evaporate in the thin air…
A good luck!
Song of the Blog: “Almost Over You” – Sheena Easton (1983)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSz0w6OTjrw
I like Trifles comment about not bringing them up in conversation. I was having dinner with a Navy buddy during the height of my LE with LO #4. I mentioned her and he said that it was a record! I went 3 minutes into our dinner without bringing her up.
IMO, there isn’t a one-time, forever answer to this. The answer is unique to each limerent and what you think depends where you are on your limerent journey.
For me, the long-term indicators are:
– Reaching the “meh” stage of the whole limerence experience. I’ve done the research, I’ve done the analysis, and my circumstances have improved. Limerence provides no thrill and there’s nothing left to learn.
– When I do look back, “What the hell was I thinking?” tends to be the first thing that pops into my head.
– That I have no place for an LO in my life isn’t a conscious thought. I’ve always known the “LO” is a label, not a position but, again, it now just kind of flows throughout me.
– “What would I do with that knowledge if I had it?” – This was my EAP counsellor’s favorite question to keep me on track. I used to dredge it out when I’d get the urge to break NC. The answer is nothing. I truly believe that no XLO has a place in my life so there’s nothing about them I need to know.
– “What if…” rarely comes up any more and, when it does, I kind of smile. The question is valid but it’s not a focal point for anything.
I describe myself as post-limerent. I don’t think I’ll ever have another LE. I’m no longer vulnerable to “damsels-in-distress… bold and confident on the outside but inside harboring a terrible wound (DrL),” I could be vulnerable to a different glimmer but given how old I am and have yet to encounter it, it doesn’t seem likely.
Is it possible that if things in my life went south, I’d return to limerence? I hope I’m never that unhappy, bored, or lonely to consider re-engaging an XLO or be vulnerable to a new one. Limerence as a short-term mood regulator can work pretty well but it’s usually not viable in the long haul and, for me, LEs ended up being more trouble than they were worth.
I’m a little surprised DrL didn’t link these in the post:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/freedom-from-limerence/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/freedom-from-limerence-is/
How do you define success and declare victory?
L.Emeritus, all
The song that came to my mind after reading the blog is this one.
“Not over Yet” by Grace from the 90s.
Turn it up loud and dance it out – it is Saturday after all !!
https://youtu.be/oBUT0cxtHlg?si=qdrn-C5BfaEO6bep
And sorry I couldnt find a video with the lyrics on the screen. I did try to find one, just for you.
And glad you don’t think you will have another LE. I hope getting older brings wisdom to not go there ever again !
Good Gawd LE, what a tear jerker. 😭Haven’t heard this one in 30+ years, at least.. I forgot besides myself, you’re the other resident Sheena Easton fan here.
MJ,
There’s at least one more fan but she hasn’t posted in a long time.
Easton has one of the best lines in all contemporary music:
“Nations go to war over women like you.” “Strut” (1894)
https://youtu.be/uSp0kO-NBWw?feature=shared
Over the years, I’ve made more than one woman smile with it. One woman replied that we both knew it wasn’t true but it meant a lot for her to hear it and thanked me.
Sometimes, you just know what someone wants to hear.
When LO #4 seemed particularly down, I almost used it as my one-line response to her. As much as I wanted to, something told me it would have been a really bad idea. Not for her, for me.
I’ll have to try and remember that line. It might just come in useful at some point.
Appreciate the post..
This may be my favorite Easton tune. It was the B side of her Morning Train hit from the 80s.
Her voice is so innocent and sweet here.
Sheena Easton
“Calm before the storm”
https://youtu.be/mtcoX2nYwMw?si=qKoVuktraA9IQjIC
Listening to this again makes me wonder why she didn’t become more famous.
I’m not over LO because thinking about her still comforts me. A fantasy that never was, seeing her car at work, a bookmark that I have on my phone from our Company’s website that features her. I’ll constantly be thinking “what if” and then slip into regret and disappointment. Sometimes I even run into her Guy Friend at work and somehow that brings me down too.
I feel like I get better when Lady Friend is around and she helps in bringing me back down to earth, but then I’m left with feeling like my limerent mind is really unfair to her. No matter how good she is to me, she’s still just a Friend and I’ll not cross the line to something deeper, until I know she’s ready.
So I guess I’m playing both sides of the fence for now. One side is real, the other is just all in my head.
I can’t say with current LO. I’m still in the thick of an LE over her and I don’t know how that story will end. I know my resolve to stay LC gets stronger week by week though. I feel less tempted to break it which I think is a really good sign.
LO#2 was a very slow fade. About 12-14 years I think. She was a 3 year girlfriend for whom I became obsessively limerent for upon her breaking up with me. We had regular contact for 3 years after said breakup, mostly phone conversations, but a few face to face meetings too. The last face to face meeting went so horrible that I finally became resigned to NC after that. And it was literally that same month I met my to be wife. This was the first big ramp down of the LE.
From that point it was about a 10 year fade to purge myself completely of LO. I knew I could not be with LO, and I did not want to jeopardize a relationship with a great woman in my to be wife, so I lived purposefully and pursued my wife, got married, started a family, and eventually the romantic desire for LO#2 just faded away. Recognizing my indifference towards her was the final sign.
Today I can think of LO#2 without one hint of romantic desire or regret. I’ve seen pics of her on others social media and could not care. She crosses my mind only when a memory triggers something about her.
I hope one day this can be true of current LO too.
Wow Speedwagon, ten years is a really long fade.
I’m really glad to hear your resolve over LC is strengthening week by week. Good stuff for sticking to your guns for so long, as this must have taken real determination and willpower. I want to get to where you are, like I’ve said before – your action remains a great model – but I recognize there is such a long way to go to get there.
The fact neither me or my LO are likely/able to confront it directly just keeps it simmering, and I can’t (nb not *won’t*) do the nuclear NC option. Part of me wishes I could – circumstances allowed a nearly month-long NC spell recently and I can feel how it eased over that time. It then hit me in the face when contact resumed, but perhaps with a bit less force.
Yes, when I think back it’s a big chunk of life spanning from meeting my SO to about 8 years into marriage. I remember points right after being married ruminating about being with LO instead of SO. But I should qualify this by saying the LE at this point was not really emotionally distressing. It just took that long to get to full indifference over LO#2. Now I have no desire to have married her and looking back with a clear mind, we had personality conflicts that could have made for a rocky marriage. I am very glad to be married to my SO now than my LO#2.
This is my favorite quote of the day, Speedy…
“I am very glad to be married to my SO now…”
I agree completely! Not only am I glad that you are married to your SO, but I’m glad that most of us are still married to our SOs.
Cheers to our wonderful SOs! *Lovisa says as she raises her glass of chocolate milk*
Speedwagon,
The persistence and length of your LE really surprises and resonates with me. You don’t happen to be a stubborn person, do you? 😆
If anything, mine has gone down in intensity but up in persistence and s more entrenched. He was really very lovely when I saw him f2f and it messed up all my carefully laid plans to write him off. Even tho I know this is a rookie error – to let LO’s behaviour dictate things.
I am low level messing up my recovery. 5 years now for me, gawd.
Bewitched,
yeah, sometimes I wish they could really just be selfishly nasty sometimes… like just leave me alone kind of approach, or just reveal how much they dont care…
LO1 said something really callous when I disclosed after 3 years (although she knew anyway), dont think she even realized how much so. Was pretty much like a miracle cure….
Hi Bewitched
That’s so interesting and it must be difficult when you need to meet up. You do seem to be going in the right direction though.
Your mention of five years surprised me. Somehow I have felt that it was ‘just me’ who had sustained that sort of timescale. Other recent posters have mentioned being caught up for several years too.
All best,
f
Hey Frederico,
I hope you are enjoying your hols. You deserve them.
I am reassured by those who are in it for the long haul. As its my first LE, I never knew what to expect. I know I will never fall again. But shaking this off is really surprisingly hard.
I was saying to Speedwagon about stubbornness – in jest. But he strikes me as an incredibly determined person, just how he describes his approach to recovery, etc. I am also pretty determined. But I think my determination to hold onto my LO is just as powerful as my determination to recover, hence 5 years and counting.
All my best for the rest of your hols,
B
I just am resolved to live purposefully now and not let my LE emotions control me. Through a lot of work I know my triggers so I try to stay away from them. Unfortunately I cannot even be very casual friends with LO without it becoming distressing so I am very disciplined to maintain LC. Also, LC gives me a little bit of power back over the relationship. Its something that is my choice and my control instead of begging for crumbs of attention from LO.
I think this ‘indifference’ is the key. I’ve had that with LO1 and LO3.
With LO2, I had a similar fade out, 10 years or so after NC inc. no SM, 13 years in total, but was never indifferent. Life just took over and I didn’t have time to think about it. When the midlife crisis hit it all came back with a rush (this is 19 years after the initial unresolved relationship, 15 years since NC).
Good luck, I’d hate to be in a new LE. Hoping I never get it again, and that I can become indifferent soon. De-activated most SM 2 weeks ago which has helped.
I get a pang of sadness and hurt every now and then. Something pops up and I get an association to a past experience. But all in all, soon past the two year mark, and things have calmed down a lot. However it is now much clearer that the obsession with LO came from something else inside me. Dr L’s blog posts about inner child work and living with purpose and not look for external validation, we are worthy and ‘good enough as we are’, are truly helpful even though it was hard to realise that LOs aren’t ’sent to save us and give us purpose and meaning’. Hanging out in Chumplady’s Facebook group has shown me what can happen, very heartbreaking consequences. Am I cured? Over it? Um…. wiser-more aware. No longer ‘mad and lost’. And no longer feeling lost in the fog which is likely the best outcome.
@CamillaGeorge.
I am glad you are feeling less sadness and more tranquillity, from the sound of things. Sending warm wishes your way. 🙂
Thank you! There are other challenges at work but LO is no longer as much of a challenge as understanding where it started once upon a time. Of course, I may get to eat my own words down the line, but so far, so good. Getting into a calm state of mind is my goal, so far working better and better. My SO is also much happier, we are reconnecting.
This is an inebriated, this week as been absolute hell, I didn’t read Dr L’s post; you still think about them. If you are in a committed relationship and relate to this you are not over them.
Numb — Declan J Donavan
https://youtu.be/GhSon2jNZOM?si=F0y5ZrqNAG_vCBl5
I will read Dr L’s later in a clear mind.
Adam,
If you’re going there, make a stop on the way…
“Lips of an Angel” – Hinder (2006)
https://youtu.be/RiSfTyrvJlg?feature=shared
I know it doesn’t show lyrics but the video actually relates to the song.
Wow! I really am over LO #3 because none of these things resonate with me. Yet… LO is still happily in my life, almost daily, and we continue to have enjoyable conversations and/or just odd ball interactions. We even have a routine: Each morning LO approaches me first and updates me on the previous day’s workout/outdoor activities. After a year and a half of this I find it amusing, endearing… and irritating. Last week he swept up beside me, put his phone in my face and pointed to a bar indicating he had walked 17 miles the day before. I really wanted to just laugh at him (as well as get his phone out of my face), but instead I nodded, looked at him and said simply “Congratulations”. I continued to look at him for a second waiting for him to complete his workout story (they go on for at least 5 minutes, often accompanied with a photo) but it seems he was waiting for more of a reaction. He said, “I’m trying to impress you!”. I chuckled, really amused, as if one of my sons just shyly presented me their art project. I flashed a smile and said, “Awe, you impressed me a long time ago” and before I could register his response I trotted off to deal with a different matter. I might have missed the expectation in the beginning of the converation but I hope that comment filled his approval bucket for the day.
My ex-LO is about to turn 60. He’s completely adorable and I’m very glad that I get to enjoy him now… many of my coworkers are miserable people that can only complain about life. I’m glad to have LO in my life right now.
My LO is regularly popping up in my life too. I am looking away each time, talking to someone else instead. It works. Redirect, deflect, look away. It does work!
This is adorable SJ!
The Altar
Archibald MacLeish
I built an unnamed altar in my heart,
And sculptured sacred garlands for a frieze
From delicately petalled memories,—
The fragrance of a word, the fragile art
Of ash-gold hair, dim visioned things that start
With radiant wings from mist of reveries,
And vanish at the telling as a breeze
Blurs mirrored stars in dark pools set apart.
But, as I worshiped reverently there
The symbols of the beautiful, there came
A light aslant the shadows of my prayer
That silenced mine uplifted lips with shame.
The garlands coldly carven in that fair
Unmeaning tracery enscrolled—thy name.
******
If feeling profound sad watching the dying light of unveiled LO, in physical or metaphysical distance, or the fading radiance of LE’s inspiration (LE with the DESIRE for LO, not merely the desired — LO itself), then one is NOT yet over either LO or LE, despite they have descended to the bottom of the bell curve…. 😢
Besides the lifetime OCD, my cPTSD has healed so much (with the tremendous help of the faraway journey) that the surrogate-parental LO is dead beyond any resurrection! There would be NO more LE in this “parenting makeup” nature. No one was, is, and will be capable of such impossible task! Only one’s imaginative and creative mind could do tricks…
The fleshy, friendly LO has gone out of realistic reach; despite my wish and efforts, the disclosed pair-bonding drive for LO (never strong enough) is just steadily walking away into the sunset….
I am not free yet due to the sadness….
The mirages of a time —
He chatted there boyish in white,
looking so familiar, as if
from the dawn of time
like the scent of lilacs of the hometown in May
like the grapevine climbing
Granny’s exterior brick walls
like the shoulder-hugs of
Big Yellow with his wagging tail…
like the tender gaze of her first platonic Romeo
like a glimpse of her selves
flashing in the mirror of souls.
He poised there carefree in light-blue,
like an Olympia’s newborn
in a silhouette of a shepherd
strolling in a sprouting field
against rolling hills of daffodils,
rapping the rusty chimes in crispy ting
with dewed breeze
flickering ripples in the listless pond
with his swift spin, and
sketching a sky-cutting rainbow
after a hot summer’s dashing shower.
He walked over radiant in red,
in the rising and falling of her timid pulse
lyric lines curved out between inhales
thunderous joy swung the sticky piano keys
tender melodies foxtrotted rusty viola strings
sensuous notes glided over inhabited saxophone
waltzing tiptoes tapped at
the reposed chamber wall.
He strolled attentively by her side in ocean-blue,
on the two Spring‘s Convocation day
casting down the paralyzing gaze
ticklishly stung her sensitive skin
the perfumed air stroke her shoulder to the wall,
his reflexive hand’s comforting immediately
short-circuited the flow of her inner Chi
knocked open the jammed chest-door, and
welled up mist in her hazy eyes.
He sat there invigorating the morning ray in orange,
flickering the sprouting sunbeam into the aged wasteland….
backing up the inner child’s defiant battle
against the demons of rotten emperors,
shrewd fathers and mothers,
the caged-tigress caregivers and teachers
grinning deviant predators, and
the insidious authoritarian regimes.
With the golden sparkles gently glinting,
the knees of the demons began to bend…
He sprung out from the morning dew in dark brown,
Infused her mint tea with surprising delight
refreshed her weary face, after
the nocturnal battles against restless ghosts
sprinkled spring rain inside the barren valley of her brain
gently blew the rosy blossoms
dancing through the undulating veins.
He sat tall in the seminar room in deep green,
with several paris of pious eyes thrusting
bashed her a few steps back upon entering.
Tucking a hopping rabbit inside, while
settling the textbooks on the desk
her evasive eyes was seized only
by the erotic emerald green, in which
an unicorn suddenly dashed out of
an edge of a thick forest
cute, curious, charming, and pure,
stirred up the swirling waves of the bosom.
❄️ 🐦🔥
2018-2019
******
Today is LO’s birthday… 🥳
LO made a cameo in a dream last week. I woke up feeling warm from it. He was very happy to see me in my dream. I’m over the LE, but I’m a little lonely so it was hard not to linger in that warmth. I searched him and looked at photos. Felt no need to think about him further. Glad to know that even if he shows up in my dreams, I just miss having that warm feeling in general. It’s not him I’m missing. I was a bit worried the LE might come back in this period of loneliness, but it hasn’t. I just feel an affection for him that will probably never go away but is no longer obsessive.
Cordelia OMG, Hello!!! 😄🙃😂
I was just thinking of you a few days ago and was kinda hoping you might make an appearance here again soon. I was wondering how my Friend from Down-Under is doing.. I’ve missed you.
It’s so good to see your post. Good to read you get a warm cozy feeling from LO without being in the throes of LE. I think I’m getting there but still have my moments. Been pretty much NC for awhile. Rarely see LO due to schedules. Still trying not to fly through Lady Friends 2nd floor window, but I want to, lol.. Keeping your words of wisdom always close to me.
If you continue to feel lonely, please don’t hesitate to come back here and we’ll (especially me) be glad to help keep you company. You and your advice is sorely missed..
Hi MJ!
Glad it sounds like you’re still doing well ☺️ I have read a few of your posts recently but haven’t felt like I had anything much to add to the conversation. I really hope things work out with you and your Lady Friend. She sounds like someone worth investing your time in!
I am back at work after some time off to move house and try and have a bit of a mental health break. We’ve moved far from our hometown so I’m meeting new people and forming new relationships. I definitely feel that this new community has more to offer someone like me than our previous one.
Some thoughts I’ve had recently that may be relevant to this space. The town I’m in now is small. The men seem either afraid to talk to me or just treat me like a human. Zero flirtation. I love that.
I’ve also bulked up a little. I don’t want to look like a body builder, but I’ve been lifting diligently for about a year now and I look strong. I no longer have the insecurities I had about my looks. All the men who flirted with me in the past were very fit. I was always confused because I felt I just wasn’t their type. Now I wonder if they did that because they could gaslight me. They sensed my insecurity about being ‘fit’ or ‘hot’ which meant they could deny everything if I reproached them. ‘Why would I be interested in you?’ kinda response. Which is exactly what my last coach did to me.
Now that I’m very happy with where I’m at physically and emotionally, they’d have to try a lot harder to dismantle my confidence. It gives me back my power, my belief in myself and my worth.
So, as I said in my previous post, I am feeling lonely. However, I am very happy that the BS superficial interactions that I’ve had to deal with constantly for more than 30 years seem to be on hiatus. And I’ve never felt more valued as an actual person 🥰
That’s wonderful news Dear. So glad you are feeling valued and worthy. It’s good to be around a Community that supports you and treats you like a human. I can imagine how good that feels after so many years of it being the other way. Good on you for making the choice to move there.
I work with a crew of people in my position now that is helpful and appreciative and it’s been surprising in a way, because I came over from the other building expecting to feel like an intruder, and possibly taking someone’s job. Turns out though I was needed more that I expected and they had a position waiting for me, so I ended up getting a spot they needed filled. It all works out because Lady Friend is in the area too and it makes my job something I seriously do not mind doing. Even if it means a 12 hour night. It’s crazy how much less stressful my job is now without all the LO anxiety. It’s only in hindsight do I actually see how much brain-space she actually took up, from all those crazy months she was just over in the office. Very little of me misses the actual stress of that.
A few people have made the suggestion working out would be a great stress reliever for me too, but I feel like trying to work that into my schedule would be challenging. Most nights I’m exhausted when I get off.. Sometimes I get what I feel is enough of a workout helping Dad and having to lift and getting him accommodated around his house. That’s a whole ordeal by itself but I’m making it part of the routine because I have to. Part of being an only-child.
Thanks again for the update. I hope you can stick around for awhile but if not, I’ll understand. Just don’t forget to come back and visit us now and then.
It’s so great to hear you’re feeling appreciated at work and that Lady Friend helps it be almost enjoyable 😅
I have to say I’m grateful that my mum is in a care home. She needs to be because she can’t feed herself let alone walk. But still, seeing her is taxing. She recognized me and said hello the other day. Then went back to staring into space. I’m just glad she isn’t in pain. I can imagine how hard it is to look after your dad every day 😔
If I end up coming back to LWL more often it’s because I’m procrastinating. I have set myself some very tight work deadlines for the next six months, so I’ll probably (or SHOULD) be lurking even less 😅
My LO is a friend’s husband and we’re in a group that meets regularly for game nights (sometimes weekly). Due to scheduling conflicts, travel, etc our game night group has not met for 3 weeks, and won’t for at least another 5 weeks. I’m miserable. So, yeah, I’m not over him yet. I’m considering not joining the game night until it isn’t a big deal any more if we take a break. This has been our longest stretch yet without contact – I didn’t think it would be this hard, emotionally. So much grief and loneliness.
This is a slightly different angle to the post than a direct response, but it got me thinking.
I realized I can’t imagine who I am ‘without’ LO2 (19th anniversary coming up sometimes this autumn). The other day I had what felt like an epiphany – my personality is not defined by my relationship to the LO (not the actual person), but it is ingrained so deeply in me that I don’t know how I would feel shorn of that part of my identity i.e. to not feel limerent at some level. Depite extended periods in the last 10 years where I barely thought about it, something was always lurking somewhere deep down. Right now, in the middle of a ‘relapse’, even that seems somehow like someone else from a long time ago (when in fact it was a few months ago), and the idea I could at some point feel indifferent about her seems like a very ambitous goal.
Hey Heebie Jeebies,
The binding up of identity with being someone who is involved with this 19-year LO is interesting. Could it be the framing of the issue as one that is romantic be something that you have been doing? I mean, framing LE as a person addiction is far less romantic but can also explain the identity thing, albeit in a more negative sense. As an example, I have framed my LE as an addiction in recent times. So, instead of “I am a person with a secret and forbidden love”, I tell myself “I am a person who self medicates when I get lonely or depressed (maybe bored) with a secret addiction”. It helps reduce the mania, especially when I don’t see him to get positive encouragement from him.
“I tell myself “I am a person who self medicates when I get lonely or depressed (maybe bored) with a secret addiction”. It helps reduce the mania, especially when I don’t see him to get positive encouragement from him.”
Well worded Bewitched. I feel like this could be me at times.
Especially when I feel lonely and then I resort to finding my quiet places to write sad poetry to LO.. I’m going on 2 years this week. Then I wonder if I’ll still have this issue going on 17 more years..
@MJ – I think don’t be too hard on yourself about needing to find the quiet spots to deal with it in your own way – there would be many worse and more destructive (to you or others) ways of dealing.
@Bewitched I do think looking at it as a form self-medication and questioning what is happening in our lives to cause that, and how we can change it, is a great approach. I always find your posts insightful, thank you! I feel confident you will get past the blip caused by your recent inperson exposure to LO.
I too would find the thought of another 20 years quite daunting. @Heebie Jeebies it is a positive step that you are introspecting and coming here to this community about why it is has been so long and why it is reoccurring now.
Bewitched, yes maybe. I got stuck hard in the limerence limbo and hit pretty much every single warning sign that Dr L highlighted. Short relationship, never consumated, got breadcrumbed pretty hard and eventually I was the one who ended it, eventually after a couple of years as ‘friends’ we talked about it and she said she hadn’t wanted it to end, but was just in a bad place (parents had just divorced, just broke up with BF) hence the flakiness, but then I was in a relationship at that point, etc. etc., so she cut contact (I think to avoid confusion, wasn’t chasing me, but there was some uncertainty in how she phrased it), which ethically I should have actually done myself. I also left the homeland permanently, and dont have people in my life who share the range of and specific hobbies/interests she does, so it represents probably the road not taken in multiple angles. Anyhow, bla bla, I should just get over it. It’s currently definitely just medicating for the midlife crisis and im making some progress with that thought (and turning off FB). But the uncertainty loop is tough to cut through, even though I wouldn’t actually want to be together.
I think my point relative to the thread was mainly that if you can start to see a point where you are indifferent, and it seems likely to be soon, then maybe you are sort of over it. I’d agree self-medication is a relatively good metaphor.
@MJ, the message of what you are writing is important I would say. i recently started playing and singing songs after a 25 year break, it seems to be a good release and help. Especially focusing on songs that talk more about the impossibility of it ever working out…. . The more I sing them the more I get annoyed by the sentiments adn that seems to help my resovle to move on. I am unfortunately ruining some IMO pretty good songs…..
@Heebie Jeebies,
The poetry has been very cathartic, in that it helps me to release as well. Sometimes with it comes the tears. It’s crazy the emotions I can pour out. Look back on and remember what moment put me in that place. It’s like being in that sadness elevates my ability to gush sentiments. I try not to hate myself for writing so much fluff but I am just now starting to see where some of it got cringey at times.
Thinking about how you would react if you ever saw/talked to her again.
Wishing you could make it right between SO and LO and have them both in your life.
I know you would be cordial Adam. Probably surprised and possibly somewhat emotional after the fact. My guess is based on your past working relationship, she would be cordial and polite the same. Perhaps the both of you might even make an effort to stay in touch.
Now how to talk to Momma about it and make the three of you all Friends somehow, that I can’t determine. You know your Wife better than anyone.
When I was still married and it came to Lady Friends (usually Colleagues) and my Wife, I found it less awkward when she wasn’t around. She knew I was a sex crazed idiot anyway, so no amount of trying to hide things ever worked. It was like she could read my mind, just by looking at me..
Introverted me has went over this scenario far too much. I hope that you are right; I wouldn’t want to be an emotional mess nor be cold. I would hope it would be the same as next time I meet Lady Friend; warm and friendly but not clingy and desperate.
LO and Momma are a like in a lot of ways just as they are different in many ways. Like how they both don’t take my $hit and tell me what I need to hear not what I want to hear. They both mother’d me. Adam/Babe (depending on who) smoking isn’t helping your heart. Drink plenty of water it’s hot today. You won’t have the energy to work if you don’t eat.
Like when I walked her to her truck when it was raining and her eyes almost rolled out of her head, but she let me. While Momma doesn’t mind me doing chivalrous things for her.
They are both strong willed and very strongly opinionated women. Neither caring whether you like their opinion/stance on things. Neither was afraid to stand up for what they believed. While not being rude or antagonistic.
They were both wonderful and caring mothers. You can see it in our boys and you could see it in her daughters. But my limerence ruined it. I think how even Momma’s sisters would probably have gotten along with her. Or they would all be arguing their opinions together lol I wish I could have seen her then how I see her now. For the woman that she really is. Not the fictional idealization I made up in limerence. I guess the lesson learned is don’t do it again. I like the two young ladies I work with now, and I constantly consciously make sure I don’t repeat it. Focus on Momma and us together. There is nothing wrong with female friends. I just have learned that apparently I need to be extra cautious.
Does anyone know why when someone blocks you it hurts so much? Why it is not just like ah so what? But hurts even in the muscles and bones. There is a part in brain that makes that rejection pain physical. But why it is do yard to go way?
Blocking someone is the FB “F–K You!”
I blocked LO #2 after she sent me a friend quest after 25 years of NC.
LO #4 blocked me after I asked her if it was ok if we weren’t FB friends. I was gone less than a minute after I hit send. I thought that was really bitchy of her.
Ghosting someone is tacit rejection. Blocking someone is in your face rejection.
Not only do they not want you to be part of their life, they don’t want you even knowing about their life.
@Heart broken limerent girl.
I think blocking on social media = represents some level of rejection usually. But the rejection might be a bigger deal emotionally for the rejectee than the rejector.
Rejection stings if you like somebody much more than they like you.
Rejection is especially painful in limerent situation because of the strength of feelings involved, and the hormones too.
I’d venture to say that because limerence is so intense. when people experience it, they might think it’s the “real deal” when it comes to connection. And it seems crazy one can’t be with the person who has inspired such connection, because it feels like the real deal.
Unfortunately, the LO may not be on the same page, feelings-wise, and there’s not much the limerent can do about that. 🙂
Sammy,
“But the rejection might be a bigger deal emotionally for the rejectee than the rejector.”
It depends. I blocked a guy because he kept reappearing and disappearing, and it was more painful to have intermittent contact during which I got my hopes up than just to block him completely.
I’m sorry in that I don’t know Heartbroken’s exact situation, but sometimes rejection is a form of self-preservation for the rejector. It’s also taking your power back a little bit. You won’t let the person mess with you anymore because you remove yourself from the playing field.
@Marcia.
“Sometimes rejection is a form of self-preservation for the rejector. It’s also taking your power back a little bit. You won’t let the person mess with you anymore because you remove yourself from the playing field.”
That sounds reasonable. 🙂
I also think two people in mutual limerence might play the blocking game with each other, but insincerely. They’re both limerent. They both has really strong feelings for each other, and it’s “consensual obsession”. But the back-and-forth tango might get tiring for one or both parties at times. One party might (temporarily) block the other just to have a little break. The human brain is oh-so-devious, no?
Sammy,
“One party might (temporarily) block the other just to have a little break. The human brain is oh-so-devious, no?”
You did … er… not hear this from me … but there may be a limerent lady named Marcia who has also “let go of the rope.” Meaning: She stops doing any initiating of communication. You want to talk to me? You do the work. 🙂
Ah … the games one can play. 🙂
Limerent Emeritus, “LO #4 blocked me after I asked her if it was ok if we weren’t FB friends.” If you don’t mind me asking , why did you ask her that? Did you need a break from her?
LHBG,
There’s a detailed post on this somewhere in another blog.
The short answer was that I was actively trying to disengage from LO #4. I had disclosed to her. She broke NC after 3 months. For reasons too long to explain, I went to war with her.
I told another mod, a RL friend of hers, that it was time for me to move on. A week later, I got an FB friend request from LO #4. We had known each other for 5 years and had never broached that subject. I asked her if she meant to send and she said that she did. The FB request was an attempt to maintain a connection.
My wife was aware of LO #4 and I was still leaking badly. I told my wife about it. I could have declined LO #4’s request but, honestly, even though I had no intention of re-crossing that bridge, I didn’t want to burn it either.
My wife’s not stupid. The idea of a woman I’d known for several years sending me a FB friend request 6 months after leaving her BF put her on alert.
My wife said that it’s rude to decline a request so I should take it. Explaining why accepting was a bad idea was likely to be incriminating. So, I accepted.
If I was behind LO #4’s wall, so was my wife. My wife was running a threat assessment of LO #4.
LO #4’s posts were unremarkable. I suspect she had a more secure area for close friends.
My anxiety went through the roof. I had a dream about following LO #4 in my car, getting lost on a dark road, and almost driving off a washed out bridge. By “almost” I’m talking a quarter of a tire diameter. I told the EAP Counselor about the dream and she said that I didn’t need a gypsy to figure that one out.
So, I asked LO #4 if it would ok to go back to not being FB friends. Hence, the block.
The EAP counselor said that hit LO #4 like a bucket of cold water in the face. Things were never the same.
On New Years Eve Day, 2015, I sent an email wishing her a happy new year and asking if we could reset things. The next day, I got an email saying that “I don’t think continuing to correspond would be appropriate.” There’s a detailed post about that exchange too.
That was goodbye.
More than you wanted to know.
I’ve said it before, limerence can be complicated.
Limerent Emeritus thank you for your time explaining your answer, the LO ends up stuck in our heads like a glue…
I got into this limbo after this guy sent me a message on Facebook messenger, and a friend request. We knew one person in common, someone that used to go to the same Church in the past.
It has been now 10 months of “nuclear” non contact. It hurts so much still, intrusive thoughts always come. I was so brave and did not reach back to him, although I think everyday about it, just because When I disclosed my feelings, he said “I will be traveling to work ( because he lives in another state) and when I know the exact date, next month, I will let you know, so we can meet”. This was after 4 months on line conversations, face time, etc. The following day, on Monday morning he had blocked me of all social media. I had told him I was going to leave my marriage after we meet and seeing him in person because I was living a abusive relationship for 19 years. It has been now 10 months. I know I should not let that bother me that much, but i cant’t help it I gad lost 10 pounds at the time. Because I was thinking ir was probably something that I said that cause that? I would do anything to know why he had blocked me.
HBLG – stay strong, it sounds like you have done so well. From a male perspective, to block someone like that without explaining shows a true lack of courage/integrity, and that he has internal issues much bigger than this thing with you. It could be you have had a lucky escape. It is infuriating when you can’t get answers to these ‘why?’ questions, but I am pretty sure DrL and others who have been here far longer than me would say that the purposeful thing to do is to try and accept the fact and keep on moving on, like it seems you are.
It was so kind of you answering me. I kept indwelling for months wondering the reason of the “ghosting”. If he had said it is better for us not talk anymore, I would have understood, and it probably would not hurt as much. People are unpredictable. I never thought he would have disappeared like that. He used to tell me personal problems, and we understood each other I even said we are best friends now” I don’t know how to explain it just felt so good talking to him about anything, work, we would text for 4 hours straight and started as good morning and very hot in the evening. It was a connection. I have learned the hard way that it is not possible be best friends with someone you have a connection with. When I told him I would leave everything for you, he said you should go for a marriage counseling to rescue your marriage. But I was so infatuated that I had as blinded. Guys here if your wives are left aside and lonely and some nice guy comes it would be a INSTANT LIMERENT HIT that was what happened to me. If I was well in my marriage, I would never let this whole thing get this far.
Hi Broken Heart Limerent Girl,
I don’t know your story, but I suspect your LO distanced himself from you because he doesn’t want you to leave your husband for him. I have a friend who has had a few women say that they intend to leave their husbands for him and it baffles him every time it happens. He cuts contact with those women. One lady used to drive past his office after he broke contact with her and it creeped him out. It’s possible that the relationship you had with your LO meant more to you than it did to your LO and when he realized your level of affection, he felt like he had to put a stop to it.
Can you work on your marriage? Have you tried counseling?
Lim-a-rant, “From a male perspective, to block someone like that without explaining shows a true lack of courage/integrity, and that he has internal issues much bigger than this thing with you. It could be you have had a lucky escape”. Thank you so much for your words. Hopefully it is a wake up call for me and hopefully this will help my love tor him fade away. It is so hard to understand or know what the other person is thinking.
Lovisa, thank you for your words, it is probably what happened. He thought I was single and then I told him I was married right the way, the prob problem started when he asked me “ are you happy in your marriage” it started there we could not stop talking to each other since then. It has been 19 months N/C . I am trying to work my marriage now. But this limerence thing, always thinking about the other guy ugh!
Is he married? Maybe his wife found out. Did you at least still leave the abusive relationship?
No, he is divorced, 47, he leaves alone no children. His social media was very personal, many pictures, family friends, we could see he had a single life. I think he was afraid of being the reason of my divorce. Believe ir not I still think he is a nice guy at least wise for not letting me leave m marriage to be with him, I don’t know he said his divorce was traumatizing. The problem is that he was so attentive, affectionate and made my heart so warm… the worse thing is my mother was encouraging me the whole time to meet him and leave the abusive relationship. It it was any of you guys here. Would you be afraid of getting involved with a married woman that was about to leave her 17 year marriage?
Heart Broken
I have been married for almost 25 years now. And while we have had our rough patches in our marriage I never expected to ever become so infatuated with another woman. Sure we are all human, committed or not, will find other people attractive or have innocent crushes. In fact I had a crush on my wife’s cousin the first time I met her, that eventually faded and turned into a true friendship. And I grew a friendship with her husband too and would go out for drinks with him.
“I think he was afraid of being the reason of my divorce.”
And I think that’s the same reason why LO reacted to my words and actions the way she did She knew I was married with children. She was recently divorced mother of two when I first met her. She knew I had a crush on her. Hell the whole office did. Looking back with a clear head, I don’t think she could have handled it better. She was warm and friendly. At the same time professional in our work relationship. I never had contact with her outside of work, which I felt was something she would have been adamant about if I did initial. (I at least learned that from a previous out of work hours contact with a female co-worker situation.) It’s been two years since she left the job and has made no contact with me though she has the ability too.
Your LO possibly panicked when it got a bit heated. Though in your defense he was participating in the contact just as much as you were. But as you said people are unpredictable.
I think him blocking you with no explanation was a bit cowardly, to put it nicely. On her last day of work she was always cordial and appreciated the cake I brought and the “going away card” I gave her. She said with a smile that it “tugged at her heartstrings”. But I think her participating in the NC by not initiating is because she knows it is best for me. I think the amount of grace that she showed this tired old man playing the fool was above and beyond for the position I put her in.
Her and her daughters will forever be a fond memory. The limerence itself, could have done without that. Maybe without the limerence we could have had a friendship. Maybe even as couples.
(She started seeing a young man before she left the job.) But, well I screwed that up.
About the abusive relationship when I told my husband I want to the divorce because I was being mistreated for do long, verbal abuse constant he cried and asked for another chance, he said he was going try to change because he did not want to loose me. Since my LO disappeared we have been trying to reconnect we have 2 boys. A divorce might cause consequences on them too. My Lo used to say I have a strong connection with you but I don’t want to be a distraction in your marriage, I don’t want to be selfish.
Adam, thank you for your words. I only did not agree with “the amount of grace that she showed this tired old man playing the fool” you are probably a charming experienced man and when we are in love we all play fools😄
Hi HBLG, sorry to hear about your situation.
It seems to me focusing on the LO and NC is probably not going to get you out of your LE. In my experience limerence often emerges in certain people out of trauma, an internal desire for change or similar- I can trace all three episodes back to trauma, big transitions in my life, or rather a strong desire to change the course of my life. It is a guess, but I think resolving your marriage difficulties and moving on from that, however that occurs, is more likely to lead to a resolution of your LE than focusing on the LE itself. It seems like the purposeful choice.
I obviously can’t advise you on your marriage, but I will venture an opinon – somehow turning around 19 years of abuse feels like a big challenge.
Heebie Jeebies, thank you for your comment “certain people out of trauma, an internal desire for change or similar” I have a history of childhood neglect by my both parents. I have learned another day this causes you to think verbal abuse is acceptable, after a long time it becomes “normal” and limerence is a result of neglectful childhood, hurt feelings, emptiness, curse of a love we can never have. Deep hurtful feeling. Limerence gives a dopamine effect. My heart still aches. But hopefully limerence will fade with time.
I saw my name coming up in a commenting Lim-a-rant, but I’m tired of scrolling and open a new comment;)
Lim-a-rant, NC or disclosure weren’t options for me either although I came very close to disclosing, and my guess is that he knows and it was all mutual, but with no intention on his side to even admit it to himself, since he’s such a „good“ person (yes, I‘m a bit disdaining here;)
I wouldn’t recommend either (disclosure or NC) if you want to keep him as a friend, and I do think it’s manageable, but it will take time or lucky circumstances (in my case, his moving away)to achieve it, also an LO who keeps his hands still like mine.
Also, you should stay awake to the possibility of just staying in a low-simmering limerence superficially called friendship for years and years. That would be a waste of time and you need to be very honest to yourself all the time to prevent this.
Trifle,
I have to say it sounds to me like you are on the verge of a new LE . Be careful!
I transferred two times, and transference from LO1 to LO2 was a very good thing for me since I wouldn’t have managed otherwise, and LO2 was a much better person than 1.
But I think, I personally, I want to stop the whole business, because what’s the point to stumble from one LE to the other your whole life? It’s kicking the can down the road, like Sammy said, master of imagery.
Disdainful? Help!
@Mila
Disdainful is the correct word of the two choices you gave!
“Also, you should stay awake to the possibility of just staying in a low-simmering limerence superficially called friendship for years and years. That would be a waste of time and you need to be very honest to yourself all the time to prevent this.”
Thank you – I needed to hear this.
It amazes me to hear that many of you talking about possible or plausible transferring LO/LE to another LO/LE, while your SO sits in the background like an old piece of furniture, invisible and ignorant … 😳 (I also think it’s preferable to spare SO’s pain in this hurtful emotional matter…)
Although agreeing a transference of LE could work for singletons in theory, I personally think it’s still an unwise or a weak mechanism — slipping into another unhealthy limerence is NOT falling in healthy love, even if unrequited.
I second the suggestion that lierments really NEED to discover true causes of one’s own LE(s) and focus on working to remove roots (recurring or new ones), then intelligently and insightfully build up an internal alarm system and improve one’s mental health, so as to avoid helplessly or unknowingly falling into any future LE .
And to be clear, I agree completely with Snow. My answer to Lim-a-rant was by no means meant as encouragement to try transference. I’ve previously referred to myself as a cautionary tale. I accidentally stumbled into it when I was desperate for a distraction – and it didn’t work as planned. You can’t control interactions between people, there is always another side.
If you are still hoping to work things out with your SO – or if you have an SO who is oblivious to the fact that there even is something that needs to be worked out, don’t do it! (These are not the case with me.) Transfer to your SO – like many here have done and advocate doing. Dr L’s blogs talk about transfering to another “object” only when one is unattached.
I know this may come across hypocritical, but everyone has their own circumstances and carries the weight of their own actions.
And yes, I am still struggling to find my “purpose”.
@Trifles, thanks for explaining your story further up. Don’t worry, I never saw it as encouraging me to try and transfer! I agree (and have done here before) that because I have an SO, the *only* acceptable transfer is to her. I can’t transfer my *limerence* to her but can redirect actions and work on redirecting feelings. I have explained in another chat with Marcia further up why I can’t and don’t want to transfer to any different LO. I can’t (not won’t) try complete NC with my LO so I need to work on a better LC strategy. I have good phases but then get reeled back in by my brain into ‘seek the dopamine hit’ mode. Sadly in many ways it has not got past the point where I can get those dopamine hits (still highs and lows in cycles). If it had moved to just pain, it would be easier to detach.
As you say you don’t have an SO, you are in a different boat and are free to act! I do think that your transferee LO effectively saying “you could have this but you can’t” is a hard one to decipher. He is either testing you out or is being quite underhand with that comment. I would say you are already pretty much in mutual disclosure territory there?
While I am transparent on here about the fact I am bargaining for friendship with my LO, which I know may not work, I am also really careful never to lead her into thinking it even ‘could’ be anything from my side, that in reality it can’t. But this is because she was my friend before I got limerent, and I have massive respect for her as a friend and person. The LE is on top of that, but doesn’t replace it. I think mine is an unusual one in these LwL circles.
Triffles, yes indeed.
“It amazes me to hear that many of you talking about possible or plausible transferring LO/LE to another LO/LE, while your SO sits in the background like an old piece of furniture, invisible and ignorant … 😳 (I also think it’s preferable to spare SO’s pain in this hurtful emotional matter…)”
It doesn’t amaze me because so many have done exactly that. It’s practically the SOP. Why? My sense it’s because if their SO knew, the pain just might make their SO re-evaluate the relationship and bring it to a close. So keeping them in the dark means they get all the comforts and reliability of that old piece of furniture while actively shopping for a replacement.
Keeping the SO in the dark ensures the limerent wins, regardless of the outcome. LO isn’t interested? SO doesn’t know – life goes on. LO IS interested? SO won’t know until the limerent has monkey-branched to a new relationship.
Heads – the limerent wins. Tails – the SO loses.
@Lilith.
Some of us limerents do not want this limerence. We know it is a part of our brain we cannot fix, so we try to manage it. Just because someone struggles with limerence doesn’t mean there is something inherently wrong with their marriage or spouse. That’s the main reason why perhaps some of us do not want to tell our spouses — we don’t want them to get hurt, or them to think it’s “them” when actually it is our own dysfunctional pair-bonding mechanism working against us.
Limerence Invisible drug/coping mechanism, longing for gives you a dopamine hit
Going off LN, I will say that even if there is a issue in the present relationship, that can still be addressed with communication. Getting infatuated with another woman isn’t the way to fix the issue with the woman you are presently with. Take it from someone that let it threaten his marriage. Limmerence isn’t called “person addiction” for no reason. Alcohol, pot, shopping, gambling, porn, etc. all distractions from what the real issue is. That’s all LOs are. Distractions from what we don’t want to face. So I latched on and idealized an innocent woman to be the perfect match for me because I didn’t want the confrontation of what was at the root of the problem. And all that did was cause more problems and almost ended my marriage of 20 plus years, tarnish my reputation in our sons’ eyes and two years down the road still trying to earn my wife’s trust back. Two years … two damn years and on occasion I still have to expel thoughts of her out of my head. Yeah no thanks. Could’ve done without this $hit.
Adam sometimes we can’t help when we are blinded by this creepy limerence. If we could, we would never let that go that far. It takes years to look back and realize that. It is not something easy.
While the intention to spare one’s own SO unnecessary pains or to make independent efforts to manage/rid of involuntary, painful LE is understandable and supportable, is TRANSFERENCE of LO to another, even temporary, while one has SO (especially a loving one), ADVISABLE or sensical in eradicating root(s) of detrimental LE or effectively removing an ongoing one??
@Snowpheonix,
In my opinion, maybe.
Drug analogy here: If I am addicted to heroin (LO/limerence) and I no longer want to be addicted to heroin (LO/limerence), I could consciously choose to transfer my addiction to methadone (LO2/a lesser limerent experience) with the plan to “wean” myself off of the methadone in a safer, more-controlled manner.
There is a “weaning” plan in place, and the limerent is doing their best to get “off” the heroin (LE/LO). This probably only works for limerents who are literally trying to manage their limerence so that it does not ruin their lives, and/or the lives of their spouses and children
The end-goal should be abstaining from limerent experiences from there on out, just as an addict will need to choose to abstain from the drug that causes their addiction. To go “cold-turkey” is noble in theory, but not always practical in reality, just like some other drugs are unsafe to go off of “cold-turkey.”
@LN,
I would never recommend “cold turkey” cut in weaning any forms of addiction (e.g. heroin) or dependence (e.g. anti-depressants, I was physically “paralyzed” in bed for 3 days when ignorantly attempted a long time ago).
However, there is a BIG difference between inanimate substance addiction and person obsession — the former is completely passive, while the latter uncontrollably, toxically walking around — not up to one to voluntarily pick up or put down! How can limerent manage/control, with an active LE mindset, LO2 to be a “lesser experience — methadone? What if LO2 unintentionally comes along, serving the LE craving mind more strongly than Heroin (some have claimed LO(s) is stronger than heroin in reality, even for decades)? Is transference to a new LO really safe and wise water to tread into?
Gradually weaning off ONE addictive substance/dependence, inanimate or animated, but not transferring from one to another, works best, IMO. Then locating and eradicating root(s) of one’s chemical/people addiction tendency is the ultimate solution for unwanted LE(s).
Pretty much…
If you want to read the case study of my LE/EA with LO #4, read this string.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/barriers-and-uncertainty/#comment-3742
Hence the discussion about things like polyamory. The site is called Living with Limerence. While most of it is dedicated to understanding limerence and eliminating it because of its consequences, there is a sizeable minority of posters who are actively trying to make it work for themselves.
Personally, I’m in the get rid of it camp. I tried to make it work and I couldn’t. But, just because I couldn’t do it doesn’t mean someone else couldn’t. It depends on the limerent, the LO, and the people who could be impacted by limerence. The limerent only controls one of the three factors and, depending on the intensity of the LE, the limerent may not be thinking too rationally (don’t ask me how how I know this). Neither could the LO for that matter.
Adults have agency. As long as the choices they make are not illegal, they’re entitled to make bad choices. The choices may be immoral, unethical, insensitive, callous, whatever, but they can legally make them.
Trying to incorporating a willing SO into the LE is one thing, intentionally hiding things from or deceiving your SO is something else. I was guilty of the latter and I could rationalize all of it. The therapist took positive delight in taking a sledge hammer to my props.
Well, if LEs are working out okay for those limerents, would they be here or silently suffering?
Snow,
“Well, if LEs are working out okay for those limerents, would they be here or silently suffering?”
That question comes up regularly.
IMO, if limerence is working for someone, they likely have no idea what limerence is. All they realize is someone, i.e., their LO, is contributing to their happiness and don’t care why. I’ve never seen any of those posting here.
There are posters here who have a cooperative SO and LO. But, it hasn’t been all rainbows and unicorns for them. They’re posting because managing a successful LE takes work and comes at risk.
As for those suffering in silence, the suffering has to be great enough to do something about it. That could be learning how to become comfortable with things or trying to identify the root causes and doing something about those.
Dr. Marion Solomon contends that when many people enter therapy, they’re not seeking true change. They want to become comfortable in their current pathology.
If you think of LwL as DIY therapy, the current crop of posters seem to tilt toward the latter.
If you read the early blogs, it was more the former. Tough love was the order of the day. ATM, it’s a kinder, gentler, LwL.
@LE,
“IMO, if limerence is working for someone, they likely have no idea what limerence is. All they realize is someone, i.e., their LO, is contributing to their happiness and don’t care why. I’ve never seen any of those posting here.”
They are either non-limerents or they are just in-love (not in obsessive LE) with their LO as a person but not an object. I’ve seen a majority of such tied/free “couples” in COO. Limerence would be an alien term to their mind!
“There are posters here who have a cooperative SO and LO. But, it hasn’t been all rainbows and unicorns for them. They’re posting because managing a successful LE takes work and comes at risk.”
Extremely rare in monogamous bonds, but not impossible, if all sides could tolerate/embrace each other’s amorous existence; even better if they can channel their LE energy into positive creativity and productivity.
“As for those suffering in silence, the suffering has to be great enough to do something about it. That could be learning how to become comfortable with things or trying to identify the root causes and doing something about those.”
I was in this category even before discovering LwL. My ego could not tolerate unknown pains without any knowledge or ability to even attempt a fight. I’ve won 95% so far in battling with cptsd, 5% is unknown and unpredictable down the road.
“Dr. Marion Solomon contends that when many people enter therapy, they’re not seeking true change. They want to become comfortable in their current pathology.”
That is unwise, enabling and elongating limerent’s own suffering. No one, even god-like, could save another except assist a bit like a cane. Ultimately, it’s one’s OWN efforts and fight to make healthy changes and flourish in their own life.
“If you think of LwL as DIY therapy, the current crop of posters seem to tilt toward the latter.”
That’s a waste of time and energy of themselves and those who genuinely offer sympathy, empathy, analysis and specific advices; it’s selfish of those “pathological” limerents.
“If you read the early blogs, it was more the former. Tough love was the order of the day. ATM, it’s a kinder, gentler, LwL.”
I think “a kinder, gentler LwL” is more humane and would be more helpful especially to those shame/guilt -loaded, thin-skinned limerents. As a semi-Buddhist, I’m unable to give “tough love”; I usually do not moralize people/ghosts (ALL are vulnerable in one way or another) or matters but habitually speculate LE cases and stressed limerents from psychological angles.
I want to (often hesitated) objectively or “ruthlessly” point out, from my perspective, some possible, plausible causes of some LE’s excessive cravings, detrimental (physical or mental) behaviors, and persistent, painful consequences. Whatever involved limerents going to do with those causes, if sensical or applicable to them, is entirely up to them.
But I’ll try to speak up more (when bored enough) about or debate with some LE-enabling “advice”.
I do appreciate real tough love and have benefitted from it once immensely, but usually I respond much better to kindness, if somebody really wants to make me think.
I think there’s a huge difference between tough love and moralizing, but most people don’t see it.
Also, people who smugly say they deal out „tough love“ are often making it easy for themselves, they take a morally higher ground and deal out platitudes without making the effort to think how they can really reach the person with their words.
Regardless posters’ intentions and their (un)matched, invisible “realistic behaviors”, I only solicit unintended “advice”, valid points of views, insightful analysis, etc….
Mila,
Tbh, there’s a lot more “rah, rahing” happening on this site that wasn’t here when I started to post on it a few years ago.
I don’t necessarily respond to tough love, either, but I think someone can be kind while still telling the truth.
I agree with Mila and Marcia.
What I’ve observed is that people who want to get out of limerence and do the work leave and don’t post anymore. People trying to actively manage limerence seem to hang out a lot longer. I stay here because I’ve grown kind of fond of the place.
To someone trying to manage limerence, poorly delivered tough love comes across as harsh, critical, and judgmental. It’s also kind of like putting a square peg in a round hole. If you’re in the get rid of limerence camp, posts on managing limerence can come across as coddling or enabling.
LwL had more focus when DrL actively posted. I saw the same thing when I was a moderator on LO #4’s site. When her attention went elsewhere, her site lost some of its direction.
But, that’s only my observation.
LE,
” I stay here because I’ve grown kind of fond of the place.”
I am, too, and I like some of the discussions.
“LwL had more focus when DrL actively posted. I saw the same thing when I was a moderator on LO #4’s site. When her attention went elsewhere, her site lost some of its direction. … But, that’s only my observation.”
I hadn’t thought of that. When I first started posting on the site, there were several pieces of Dr. L’s advice I balked at. But now that I have some perspective on my LE and have read enough of the posts on here … his advice is dead on. If a person wants to get rid of the limerence. Follow the protocol. 🙂 All the steps. 🙂
People gave me tough love when I got here. Looking back, I appreciate the honesty. Without it, I wouldn’t have been able to see my behaviors for what they were. Engaging through those difficult conversations got me through the worst of it.
Even though tough love is never easy to hear or take. Ultimately I think the advice and banter going on here is legit.. Limerents are still going to do what they want.
Hi all,
I guess it depends on which phase or special LE one is in if tough love works or not.
Maybe it’s because I am/was limerent for a friend that I felt and still feel that the „just cut it all out, it’s all bad“ advice just wasn’t for me.
In some phase I had to do small steps and to live through my feelings, not just shut them down. „It’s all bad, just go NC“ didn’t work there at all.
In my first LE I’ve been a lot on an online forum that didn’t call it limerence, but it basically was about limerence while married. There was a lot of „don’t you feel bad, you are all adulterers in mind“ stuff that didn’t help anybody, but also lots of sentimental gushing „tragic love of my life“ stuff that didn’t help either. But there were a few amazing people who really knew how to deal out tough love in the right way.
Dr L is someone like that, has a way of being honest but kind that speaks to everyone.
I also feel that I‘m now in a place at the tail end of my LE that sometimes it’s bad for me to visit this site, it’s like you need an LO to be a part of this community, and a reason to hold on to mine (cannot express it well), and the terminology holds me back from thinking of my LO simply as a friend or human being and thus make the LE fade out completely.
But I’m also fond of this place since it helped me enormously, and fond of some people, and also I’m kind of curious about some stories here, how they will play out longterm…
@Mila,
Perhaps it’s time to call your now xLO “FP”— Fonded Person, or “FF” — Fonded Friend?
I also find it increasingly uncomfortable nowadays to still call xLO7 as LO (I don’t have another terminology). My Unconscious has decisively killed IT, after the disclosure, the renewal trip in COO, and the dream…
I think I’ll use the term, “FP” from now on.
Lilith, Transfer LO to another LO. Oh no, God forbid. I never want to go through that pain again. If I have to transfer, that would be for my SO. It was not only emotional pain, but physical pain, in the chest area, like knife stabbing. The only good thing about it was. I had lost 10 pounds 😝😂😄🤣after my LO blocked me from no where. No arguments nothing. Just vanished for no reason… hopefully I learned a lesson from this whole thing.
Lilith, Transfer LO to another LO. Oh no, God forbid. I never want to go through that pain again. If I have to transfer, that would be for my SO. It was not only emotional pain, but physical pain, in the chest area, like knife stabbing. The only good thing about it was. I had lost 10 pounds 😝😂😄🤣after my LO blocked me from no where. No arguments nothing. Just vanished for no reason… hopefully I learned a lesson from this whole thing.
I agree 100% with the comment above. As a married woman, I never want to experience limerence again.
Although my SO is entirely unaware of my past LE, I believe he was still negatively impacted. I fell behind with family and household duties over the last year. I wasn’t spending quality time with the family. Even when I was with the family I wasn’t ‘present’.
As for the singletons, I wouldn’t suggest transferring their limerence onto another LO. Limerence isn’t love. It’s an awful shameful experience. It’s painful, putting someone on a pedestal, seeing them as perfect and craving their approval.
@Snowpheonix,
I am not saying transferring is good or bad; I merely pose that it is an option. If limerence is an addiction like other addictions, and people are the drug, how is that different than actual drugs?
I always recommend soul-searching and getting help if someone needs it to figure out their “roots”. But what if limerence is just… a tendency for limerence? What if it’s just a malfunctioning pair-bonding system some of us have, not related to roots or trauma or anything?
@LN,
I’m not moralizing transference, but points out its danger.
How people addiction different from a chemical drugs? — the latter negatively affects your mind only/primarily,; the former damaging you, your SO and your love/devotion for her/him, regardless their awareness or not (unless both sides are polycules).
For your second part of questions, I have no answers; perhaps Dr L could help answer that. I would not use the word “Mulfunctioning”, since I don’t think/believe humans are biologically wired to mate for one in lifetime, like swans. But limerents need to do “soul-searching”, really forting out possible causes of their LE tendency. If no traumas or other personality issues, then bravely acknowledging that DNA for polygamous pair-ponding is responsible for onset LEs.
Still, if one is in a chosen, preferred monogamous relationship, what would sensible and non-damaging ways to deal with the said LE feelings?
LO was like heroin (which is highly and quickly addictive) and I got hooked fast. As LN mentioned some drugs/addictions can’t safely be done “cold turkey”. Which is why I told my wife about my limerence despite LO had been gone for six months from the job before I found this place. The addiction still lingered and I knew that I could not do it alone. I can get LN’s analogy of transference and addiction. As long as the hope it to climb down from that transferred limerence than perhaps it can help some people. But the goal is always to avoid limerent episodes and get to the root of why it happened in the first place. Whether it is the first or second or whatever. Addictions happen for a reason other than the physiological aspect.
Since this is a coffeehouse, I can go tangential.
To me, LO #4 and DrL are similar in one respect.
They are their respective brands. Their presence their makes them larger than life. Posters respond to them in a way they don’t for anyone else.
It’s their sites, their visions, and their rules.
I was a moderator for 3 years on LO #4’s forum. There were 6 of us. We had the authority to do some things but not others.
When she contacted me explaining her absence, she said she trusted me to keep the place running in her absence. I told her if she disagreed with anything I’d done, I wouldn’t take it personally if she reversed me.
I became the steward awaiting the return of the Queen. Unfortunately, limerent that I was, I wasn’t able to keep things platonic and strictly business. If I wasn’t married, it could have been a Hallmark movie. As it turned out, it was more of a Lifetime movie.
The point was, some places are closely tied to their creators. LwL is one of those places. In many places, the host doesn’t interact with the posters.
LE,
What I notice comparing older to newer posts is that the tougher love you mentioned came from just a cluster of people (in fact one, mainly).
Some of the *very* early 2017 posts seemed less judgemental on on limerence as an overall bad thing. Not saying that’s right, just saying its what I’ve found.
But DrL seemed to quickly develop and stick to party lines. Basically don’t kid yourself and rationalize it away, but act purposefully to move past it, while recognising that this looks different for everyone. Don’t lie, deceive, cheat etc. Please correct me if you think I’m misrepresenting anything as I know you’ve been here since the start.
But he has also been light-touch with moderation in some ways, like making it explicit that he encourages letting people have their say / not censoring. This sort of setup is hard but valuable to find in today’s world where people are more inclined to find people who agree with them and shout at anyone who doesn’t. This community does well to self moderate as respectfully as it does.
When I post bits here about my LE, I find the range of replies useful. Some people have pointed out flaws in my reasoning (much needed), others have said “look I know what you’re going through is difficult, well done for being here and exploring it with us”. Sometimes I need the slap in the face (kindly delivered if possible), other times the arm around the shoulder. It’s good to be able to weigh them up.
I recently found one old ‘case study’ post where the case study person got too many slaps in the face in responses, and DrL had to write the next post about etiquette on the site/ not taking moral high ground.
But I think what you’re saying above is that when DrL commented more, he could steer the discussion away from responses that were unhelpfully against the LwL mindset and towards points in line with it. On that, I agree. He responded to my first post on here and that was really helpful. I then knew firmly, or got confirmed, where my LE stood in LwL terms (limbo). And while I don’t love that fact, it has at least given me somewhere to start.
Well, people, this has been one of the most constructive and well-ordered coffeehouses to date, I must say. 🙂
Nobody strayed too far from the topic, even though it’s coffeehouse. (Great topic maybe?) Lots of ground was covered. Some very interesting discussion. People had different ideas about certain things, and expressed those different ideas freely, but amiability and good manners reigned supreme.
Like Limerent Emeritus, I do believe Dr.L. has an unofficial “brand” and I think long-term posters know this and honour this as best as they can, given their own often rather quirky personalities. I think this brand is more of a vibe than anything else. I call this vibe “civility with a pronounced English flavour”. 😆
Perhaps as a group we might say a special thank-you to Mila for helping to kick off such a successful week in the Land of Polite and Friendly Discussion? 🙂
Hear, hear, Sammy. I agree, and really appreciate the contributions from the regulars to keeping the LwL vibe on track. I’ve been tied up with lots of other concerns of late so commenting less frequently, and it’s especially appreciated in those periods.
Well, I think I don’t deserve the praise as I didn’t kick it off but was just unable to finally cross the border between LE and normal friendship and thus inspired Dr.L to this blog post🙈.
I don’t feel very polite and friendly today, being a bit stressed out, and seeing my LO (or was it FF? snow? What exactly is „fonded“? Someone I‘m fond of? Unfortunately I’m still in the land of being peeved at LO. I‘ll be fond of him as soon as he finally will be a few hundred kilometers away.) didn’t help my mood much, but it helped me see once again that he‘s basically just a lukewarm guy with repressions, a bit of a nerd in a good way- a special nice person, but with limits, and that he‘ll never be able to be the special friend to me that I wished to have.
I‘m very sure that I‘m the very best friend he‘s got and after his SO and family the person he feels closest to, since he cannot really do „close“, he cannot talk about feelings, apparently not even with his SO.
But I can and want to, and for me he should therefore not be my closest or best friend.
Or is here the old disappointed limerence speaking?
That’s what I’m fighting with at the moment: am I right in judging him, or am I now distorting reality in the other direction.
In the meantime I feel very luxuriously lucky that he‘ll leave soon, compared to other limerents here where LO stays on in their life.
But I ruminate that I wouldn’t have fallen limerent for him if he wouldn’t have announced that he‘ll probably leave and took such an awful lot of time to decide. Which means we could have been good friends forever if he would have stayed, no reason to lose him.
Well, that’s futile now. And I didn’t plan on ranting in this post, I started it by wanting to deny responsibility for the politeness and friendliness of this thread and went on by blabbing about myself some more🤷🏻♀️Sorry!
@Mila,
“or was it FF? snow? What exactly is „fonded“? Someone I‘m fond of? Unfortunately I’m still in the land of being peeved at LO. I‘ll be fond of him as soon as he finally will be a few hundred kilometers away.”
I looked up words in the midst dead night this early morning, and I think “fonded” means someone one is fond of, like “beloved” but in a lesser degree — there is no word, “befonded”. A native English speaker could help us more here. “Beloved” is too strong for me to use on xLO.
If we view and accept our xLO as an imperfect person with some disappointing personality traits or “annoying”/lukewarm responses to our “sincere friendship”, then of course, we can’t feel “fond of” them all the time, particularly when they are still in our physical vicinity. Once they’re gone in distance, particularly metaphysically, then more fond feelings will remain, all the old grudges will dissipate naturally in time. At least that’s how my psyche works, regardless of my logical mind. I think this will happen to you once your FF departs.
“It didn’t help my mood much, but it helped me see once again that he‘s basically just a lukewarm guy with repressions, a bit of a nerd in a good way- a special nice person, but with limits, and that he‘ll never be able to be the special friend to me that I wished to have.”
Now, you see the reality more clear as the LE’s fuzzy lens is fading away. That’s pretty much how I see my xLO/FP — Fonded Person, not sure if he sees me as a friend, although I realistically treat him as one.
“I‘m very sure that I‘m the very best friend he‘s got and after his SO and family the person he feels closest to, since he cannot really do „close“, he cannot talk about feelings, apparently not even with his SO.”
Unlike you, I could never be sure of anyone else’s personality, thoughts, feelings, behaviors, etc, while watching myself changing and evolving all the time. I often feel sad for my own changes, e.g. some positive feelings for ex-close friends, xLO, FP… helplessly going away on their own or caused by circumstances.
“But I can and want to, and for me he should therefore not be my closest or best friend. Or is here the old disappointed limerence speaking?”
Our psychology simply would not follow “should” or “should not”; our Unconscious often battles with our conscious mind and we end up feeling opposite to what I have wished.
“That’s what I’m fighting with at the moment: am I right in judging him, or am I now distorting reality in the other direction.”
Mila, please allow me to speak up one of my probably-biased observations here: a lot of your energy and talks have been focused on speculating, evaluating your FF and his text messages, not on yourself, eg why you (re)acted to them the way you did, or why you felt up or down here and there…now and then…. Your mood seems to be still dependent on your FF’s whereabouts (mostly metaphysical), not on your own.
Based on DrL’s many blogs, managing/riding of limerence is a battle with ourselves — our own mind/psyche, then is it fruitful if we put so much attention on LO’s personality, changing/evolving thoughts and feelings?? How do we ever know whatever we have felt, thought, or concluded is realistic but not perceived with our “altered mind”?
I can and do empathize with your frustrations and struggles, since I was in your shoes a couple of months ago. But as selfish as I am, my mind is more focused on observing myself and has asked “why, why, why” nonstop… I observed and analyzed my SELF almost 24/7, even when I was carrying conversations with COO friends. I struggled and battled to feel and think authentically, independent from xLO/FP with his ever unknowable mind, in the past, present, or future — a truth in many’s life, a fact we face and need to embrace peacefully….
I always admire your brave, candid posts about your inner and outer life.
I have been following the interesting comments and discussion last few days.
I would add that I think the regulars in the LwL community are also very intelligent and articulate, and the quality of writing and depth of thought and funny engagements keep me here, as much as my ongoing LwL struggles.
Anyway, I am not sure that ‘fonded’ is a real word, and if it is, it isn’t used in day to day speak . However, language evolves all the time, so maybe we can make it a thing.
It’s better than ‘fondled friend’ which I initially misread it as, ha ha !!
Maybe, FoF ( fond of friend) or Trusted Friend , or Dear Friend, or Endearing Friend.
Any other options ? the winning one we can submit to Dr L as a new acronym for his glossary of terms.
MFF- Mentally Fondled Friend
😇😂
Haha Snow!😂
Thanks also for your post.
You are right, I wasted so much energy on analyzing, and my mood is of course still a bit dependent on the situation that these are the last weeks or days he still lives here. But, my mood is actually better when I don’t see him and I
can center myself.
I really think, all will be solved once he‘s gone.
Because now it starts to really sink in (although I knew it all the time with my head, but not deeper) that I layered a golden picture over the real LO. The real one is still nice and special and does like me a lot, but he is also self-centered , not very attentive and prefers to paddle along in very shallow relationship-waters. I can separate myself much more from that.
I invited him and his family for next weekend and that will be the final goodbye dinner, I guess.
I made him a very nice and thoughtful goodbye present that makes me feel good and it all has a hint of closure about it.
Imho, how are you doing?
I guess I‘m one of the day-in day-out posters Speedwagon is talking about, but it helped me a lot for a while and now that I feel that I won’t be needing it soon I still wonder how everyone else is doing day-in, day-out..
@Mila,
“But, my mood is actually better when I don’t see him and I
can center myself.”
That sounds like your LO’s light has largely dimmed; your system has no need of interaction with him for mood spiking.
“I really think, all will be solved once he‘s gone.”
I think and hope so, too. Physical distance (NC) will naturally reduce or alienate one’s LE feelings or perceived emotional-intimacy with xLO.
“Because now it starts to really sink in (although I knew it all the time with my head, but not deeper) that I layered a golden picture over the real LO.”
All LE mind, at least at beginning, has coated LO, and even the whole world around, with layers of rainbow auras! Some of those auras can stay shinny for years for those limerents who do not know their LO realistically well.
“The real one is still nice and special and does like me a lot, but he is also self-centered , not very attentive and prefers to paddle along in very shallow relationship-waters. I can separate myself much more from that.”
You’re “lucky” here that your FF does not have “ideal” personalities as you have wished, has not communicated with you the ways you have hoped… otherwise, if he were ideal, imagine how you’d feel and what you could possibly do with him realistically, with two SOs and families in the picture? Would you ever be able to “separate” yourself from a godlike FF?
“I invited him and his family for next weekend and that will be the final goodbye dinner, I guess. I made him a very nice and thoughtful goodbye present that makes me feel good and it all has a hint of closure about it.”
That’s truly sweet and generous of you! Your decade-long friendship deserves it (regardless whatever happened during your LE), he’ll value it for the rest of his life, and you’ll be proud of your own genuine affection, LE or friendship-wise — every experience has its unique values, maybe hidden within.
Good luck with your “farewell” dinner party for FF and his family!
Snow,
„ Would you ever be able to “separate” yourself from a godlike FF?“
Well, I never thought he was ideal or godlike, more endearingly human, but I thought there would be more of a capacity for warmth and giving.
But you are right, it might be for the best, and maybe my mind just makes this flaw up to help me overcome my limerence, and in the end it doesn’t matter what is what.
Thank you for letting me know that you think being generous is the way to go, because I doubt it now and then, when my annoyance at his passivity and lukewarm friendship takes over again.
But I essentially know that I will feel much better when I’ll have been kind and generous, no matter his behavior. It’s also a way to overcome limerence.
I forgot, how is your job situation? Is it solved?
This new FF term is making me giggle. On a day of feeling resentment / anger , the first F may stand for a less appealling word eh ?!
Mila,
On speedwagon’s comment, probably yes, however, your messages are always on the aim to resolve limerence and rarely completely off-topic which I’ve noted a lot more of.
I guess this naturally happens the longer we are here and ‘get to know others’ , people chat and banter.
Anyway, I hope your goodbye work party went well and your dinner will be a success.
You will miss him. You have to be prepared for that fact and it may be really hard.
I miss my LO a lot which is ridiculous in my circumstances. It just is that way and I have to let it go.
I had a dream about him which surprised me, as I rarely remember any dreams.
I won’t bore you with the details, but at the end we were outside by a crumby shop that sells snacks and alcohol. He walked off down the street into the sunshine without saying a word of goodbye. I felt anger. Then he turned around and gave a big smile and waved. I watched him go into the distance where I could see he met some friends who started taking selfies with him. I then walked into the dimly lit crumby shop.
The End !
Hi Imho,
well, he left work already a year ago, so I got used to it, and in the last months our meetings were kind of emotionally exhausting to the point of unpleasantness for me, so that I actually find myself wishing he would just be gone now. It feels like I won’t miss him that much.
But your dream reminds me of what I‘m afraid of- that I push it all down and it will come up in dreams, or suddenly a great feeling of loss will grip me because I just talked myself into not missing him.
That’s why I turn a bit in circles- I‘m fed up with him and then force myself back to the truth that he‘ll be gone soon, and try to be nice, because I know I’ll regret it later otherwise. So, actually FF stands at the moment for the less appealing word for me…
Your dream is very poignant, without analyzing it I think it shows the perfect mixture of feelings one has of distance, affection, hopes, insecurities etc.
Thanks Mila.
‘….just talked myself into not missing him.’
Could be and good to be aware of this potential for you.
Uncertainty is a major driver of limerence in my view, so if you can maybe make firm plans with dates in the diary to meet that will probably help.
And the protracted departure is wearing on your patience and kindness, but are so very nearly there.
I feel that even I should be buying him a goodbye gift 🎁
Hi Imho,
that’s what I did with the dinner, set a date for meeting him a last time. There’s basically only next week left. I wonder if I should suggest an informal meeting during week or not. You are right that it will feel better to know exactly when we meet.
„ I feel that even I should be buying him a goodbye gift“
Haha! I think he should buy you a goodbye gift!
The Coffeehouse posts are nice. I like that I have somewhere I can come talk to ya’ll. In the year and half I have been here I have grown quite attached to this community, limerence behind me (for the most part).
I have had my “tough love” from Miss Marcia, early on. Miss Lovisa being the mother of us all. L.E. with his logical and psychological take on limerence. To my dear friend frederico who hovers somewhere in the balance of understanding me and sympathizing with me when I first got here. Limmy come back to us! Limmy was a huge help in my healing as well. I always got pumped when I’d see her name on the recent posts.
I know there are a lot of people that also helped who don’t post much anymore that I would have to peruse the New Years post comments to remember since it was the first thread I posted my story in. So many people that helped me on the road to recovery.
Then there is my good friend MJ. Who quite honestly made me wonder. I remember reading his initial post twice and waiting half the day at work before I responded. His limerence was like a wildfire and mine was a slow burn. I wanted to articulate accurately what I wanted to say. I didn’t want to say the wrong thing. And after I collected myself and responded I now have a new friend. I may not have understood how his limerence went but he has helped me along the way as much as I have tried to help him. Someday we will have a beer together. Hopefully he has good taste and it’s Guinness. 🙂
I stick around here for the people. I have learned to pull back on getting involved in every new limerent poster here if I feel it is going to trigger my own. Because I know that there are many posters here that can help better than I can. I have to recognize I (myself) can’t save everyone and that there are posters better equipped when it comes to other peoples’ limerence. So I can sit in the background until something becomes relevant to me. But I can always come here to Coffeehouse threads and shoot the breeze with ya’ll. If anything limerence led me to ya’ll and I consider you all my friends.
Oh and let me not forget Limerent Nurse. Very interesting to hear from a woman’s perspective with what, to me, seemed like a similar limerence to my own. Her help and comments have been immeasurable in the latter half of my letting go. I hate goodbyes in general but she so helped me cut the last ties.
There is so much this community has done for me. From Dr. L’s posts on help for the spouse of a limerent, which gave me the courage to disclose to my wife, to all the people along the way. All the people that responded and interacted with Momma when she did post here. I’ve come a long way because of ya’ll. I don’t think I could ever leave this place.
Adam,
“I have had my “tough love” from Miss Marcia, early on. ”
Tbh, I regret the way I did that. I should have been a little gentler.
I was projecting some of my personal crap onto your situation. It’s not fun to get older as a woman. I recommend against it. 🙂
„It’s not fun to get older as a woman. I recommend against it. 🙂“
Marcia!
Don’t put the fear into me again!!😂😂😂
Mila,
“Don’t put the fear into me again!!😂😂😂”
Well, there’s only one gender to blame for how women are treated as they age. 🙂
Too right Marcia!
@Marcia.
“It’s not fun to get older as a woman. I recommend against it. 🙂”
In my mind, you and Snow are neck and neck in best-told joke of the week. (Snow’s joke is MFF stands for “Mentally Fondled Friend” – a phrase I believe all limerents can relate to just a little too well). But I think we should probably give the honours to Snow, since it’s her one-year LwL anniversary. 🙂
@Snowphoenix.
You didn’t hear this from me, but … congrats! 😉
If not from you, Sammy, then from whom/where “congrats!” comes? 🧐
I see the verbal “crown” of the week for the term MFF was given but not earned, because the last Sunday was my one year anniversary of fearfully stepping onto LwL…😉
Even as a half joke, I still think MFF best describes almost every limerent’s mental state, even in dreams (besides SOs or polycules in this website…), regardless whether or not xLOs/LOs realistically have reciprocated their wished/perceived “friendship”…. However, the term MFF suddenly sprung up from Imho’s Freudian’s slip — “Fondled Friend” for “Fonded Friend”. So the half of your honours goes to Imho, for her version is more vividly graphical, my original one is too abstractly emotional…
********
@ All,
Reading through this coffee house, with its energized and profound discussions, is becoming highly triggering, unexpectedly serving as my “exposure therapy” — the term and concept I learned from Sammy’s post last fall. Unlike some posts’ views, I don’t think staying/running away from LE triggers would help eliminate LE present or residual pains in our system. From my limited, concrete meditation practices, I know Jung is right that the only way to reduce/cure psychological pains is going through them, NOT around them or shoving them under the rug.
Faraway trips, other types of addictions, transference from one LO to another MFF, or staying away from LwL (for me) would all distract LE mind and brush its pains aside to certain degrees, but only for a while; the unresolved pains are still somewhere deep inside. Any strong will can work on concrete behaviors/(in)actions, but not on mental/emotional activities. As DrL points out: anytime one tells oneself that “I won’t think this or that”, “the pink elephant grows an inch bigger in the room, or goes into our dreams like what happened to Imho recently.
But quiet, mindful exposures to LE triggers and keenly, patient observations of one’s thoughts and emotions, after LE pains being invoked/evoked do help reduce intensity of those lingering, recurring LE pains — jealousy, resentment, rage, regret, embarrassment, self-reproach, disenfranchised grief, despair, etc. After courageously exposing to those triggering points repeatedly (without acting on them), LE pains would become duller and duller… Together with a new purposeful “endeavor” (e.g. a new hobby or pursuit), those pains would scar as time goes by, I believe.
When in COO this time, I head-over-toes dived into almost all the sites (some have gone) where my childhood/youth traumas took place (in my previous trips, I avoided a lot of them or felt nearly passing out while facing them incidentally). I stared at the sites, tried to pull out all my painful and “diluted facts”, and stayed with them at the moments until I felt “empty” inside… Then, the impacts of those ePTSD unexpectedly, rapidly lost their illusive power inside my system. After coming home, with that “magical” spa dream, 95% of my cptsd has left….
However, when 5/7th of my LE (conscious parental-bond pursued) is gone, alas, the 2/7th of this LE (unconscious pair-bond driven) residual pains surfaced more, even after MFF is physically gone with wind.… Now, I realize and agree that LE will linger for a while, regardless xLO’s realistic absence. Many cases here have illustrated xLO/MFF’s power and LE’s devilish stubbornness… One really needs to find and constantly practice some individually-effective ways to eventually cure/remove its presence. ❤️🩹
@Sammy,
I just realized that the difference between the words, “fond” and “fondle” is two letters — LE. So perhaps it’s more appropriate to say it is Imho’s Limerence Slip, instead of “Freudian slip”, that has inspired the term, MFF!
Thanks again for “congrats”, wherever/whoever it is from… 🙂↔️
Very clever, Snow:)
I lost track, what does M stand for?
@Mila,
MFF — Mentally Fondled Friend.
Snow of course, how could I forget. My brain is still foggy.
I also enjoyed Snow’s entry – and would like to add one of my own: Friend I’d no longer like to fondle (FINLLF). 😜
As for the sexual vs emotional pull: my two LO’s have both been first and foremost on a sexual level but I recognize a bit of a demisexual in myself in that they both also turned out to be (to my detriment) my type personality-wise and in terms of intelligence, sense of humor, hobbies, etc, etc… And that’s the clincher. I don’t know if the sexual pull would have turned into limerence without it. I think that I noticed some clues about our compatibilities at first sight/meeting and hence the glimmer.
Trifles I think you’ve done better than I did yesterday at how I was trying to explain how limerence develops for me. There needs to be slight initial glimmer (you’d need to see them as a candidate for your affections), but only once the emotional pull gets hold does it go full blown limerence (for me). Thank you!
Lim-a-rant, glad to be of help! I also got to thinking how my description above differs from normal crushes /”falling in love at first sight”, but of course it’s the whole reciprocating/uncertainty cycle that follows.
And I hardly ever get that glimmer right when shaking someone’s hand, so that’s probably why those two felt so significant to me, like “there must be something here”.
I don’t believe in love at first sight so these weren’t that, but they were definitely “oh no, here we go… (and I’m not stopping it!)” at first sight.
Adam
Your post is typically gracious and I am grateful for your friendship too. Thank you for the mention. We both seem to be in a better place these days, despite some setbacks along the way.
I have not been part of an online forum before and, as a quiet sort of chap in real life, I have learned a lot about myself from interacting with friends here. There have been many nuggets of wisdom for which I will always be grateful.
f
“After I collected myself and responded I now have a new friend. I may not have understood how his limerence went but he has helped me along the way as much as I have tried to help him. Someday we will have a beer together. Hopefully he has good taste and it’s Guinness. 🙂”
Adam my Friend, you are too kind. Thank you for your nice words. You taking the time that day, to write back what you did, was really the only reason I came back. You seemed to relate perfectly to where I was at. I remember the tough love from the other posters, had really just taken about everything out of me emotionally, that I could not bear at that point. I felt like they all wanted me to forget about LO. Yet your response seemed more aligned with my situation, and it helped me to realize in my head, this person (you) totally gets me. I remember breaking down in the car after work that night. Overwhelmed but not ready to throw the towel in just yet.
I’ve gone back and read my initial post a number of times and it isn’t so hard to read now as it was then. I realize everybody who responded was dealing with their own cross to bear and suggested for me perhaps what worked best for them. I appreciate the love from everybody here, as it has been a fantastic place for me to come and pretty much vent to you all. It’s neat I think we’re all just strangers to each other in some way, but good friends in reality, that are from all over the world.
Speedwagon, Lost In Space, Lovisa, Limmy, Sammy, ABCD, Marcia, Limerent Emeritus, Frederico, Mila, Grego, Lim-a-Rant, Call me Cordelia, Snowphoenix, and my Lwl Ex, C for Cat. You are all so very incredible and I am forever grateful for your support.
Finally again Adam, thank you so much for being a great Friend to me and for your words of encouragement. I don’t think I could have done this without you. This has been a strange and surprising ride, but you have helped make it so much more enjoyable. As a matter of fact, I happen to love Guiness, so yes I will take you up on having that beer with you sometime. Drinks are on me..
Cheers. 🍻🥳
MJ, cheers for the call out on your list. You people here are incredible. Whether we belong to the tough love or soft love school of thought, what I can say for sure is this – for a penny I could have stuffed things up so very many times this year through disclosure to my LO. It is only thanks to being here that I haven’t, and all is still intact with her and more importantly SO. This goes for the many months I was here reading about the rest of you before I felt brave enough to write anything. It shouldn’t be underestimated how many people there are out there in this position that we’re helping without knowing it.
I like the balance of tough love and a safety net that this place provides. I am not afraid to hear the tough stuff if ever I post something and one of you feels that’s what it needs.
(I also like Guinness)
I happen to like Guinness too.
Maybe Guinness is the secret ingredient for limerence then, and we’ve all just been over-analysing it?!
Make that a double round for Mila and Lim-a-rant.. 🍻🍻🤪😜
Thanks for the shout our, MJ. Totally agree that this has been a great place to share our thoughts, and all friends have been so kind, non-judgemental, and extremely helpful. This forum as been an incredible source of support and compassion during the hard times, and a big thanks to you all – MJ, Mila, Adam, Snow, Lovisa, Limerent Nurse, Limerent Emeritus, Marcia, IMHO, Speed, Frederico, Sammy, sorry if I missed your names – you have been totally awesome.
A quick update from my side – LO interactions has gone down significantly, I do have a flare up now and then, triggered by something, but I am determined to wade through them. Overall, I feel I have a better handle on LE, not completely out of the woods (perhaps we may never be?), but handling my occasional feeling of melancholy better than before.
Cheers everyone!
Hi ABCD,
Good to hear you are doing well, I remember you had a little setback last time you posted.
I’m also very thankful for this site and community, I think it’s fantastic that you find so many people in an online forum who are all very different but all intelligent, articulate and compassionate.
Good for you ABCD, keep up the good work.
You seem to almost be in the same place I am.
I also wonder if I’ll ever be completely out of the woods. Something about these trees..
😂🤪🥰
Cheers MJ, thanks for the drinks;)
Miss Marcia
Don’t hold back what you think I need to hear. What you said way back then may have stung at first, but then I realized I needed to hear that. And I appreciate that you gave me that kick in the keister. Don’t regret it. It’s what I expect from you. To me at least. And I wouldn’t have you any other way. 🙂
Frederico
You are most welcome. I’ve almost always related to your limerent experience. Even with the differences in our stories, yours seemed very relatable. And I always enjoy you as the wordsmith you are making google a word in almost every post. 🙂 I am very glad to have met you. Don’t break an old man’s heart and going running off somewhere. Someday we have to have those drinks cause we got Momma to drive us home. High five! 🙂
MJ
I know what you mean about reading old posts. I go back and read some of my old ones in New Years thread and some of them are like “I wrote that?” Much less them being forever immortalized on the internet for Momma to read when she found this place from the articles I printed her. To know that I am even doing better than what I was is encouraging for me to keep on keeping on.
That’s why I tried so hard to try and understand your situation and help you realize the gravity of your limerence. Tough love can be useful. But I find it difficult for me to do to someone who is first coming here. So I tried to be practical but yet understanding. I am glad to hear that my words helped you and not hurt you.
And you have helped me as well. A lot of people here in the community seem to be helpful in my latter leg of limerence and you are one of them. Just hearing you getting better and meeting your Lady Friend and thinking about relationships with other people other than LO has been keeping me on the straight and narrow myself, so I don’t have a relapse. Guinness it is. Maybe we can get some Harp and make a black & tan with the Guinness. It’s super good. Use to drink them a lot in my younger days.
Its always a good day for a Black and Tan. I used to have them with Bass Ale. Haven’t tried it with Harp, so I’m interested..
Thanks, Adam! 😊
Has anyone heard from SO Ellie? I worry about her.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/dealing-with-limerence-in-marriage/#comment-56157
No, what a horrible story!
Interesting turn of discussion in Coffee House. Someone mentioned new members vs old and my take is this…in the earlier days it seemed there was a greater variety of commenters and not so much personal day in and day out discussion in the comments. Nowadays it seems 80% of the comments are made up by about 5 or 6 people who have all become attached to one another here and discuss their day in day out goings on. Nothing wrong with it, just a different vibe. I used to be more active day in and day out and it helps when in the lowest part of the LE.
Also, about transference. I mildly tried it because a woman I was getting closer with was just a more compatible personality to me. I thought I might lose interest in LO as I got to know this woman more. It didn’t take. She is a great distraction to LO and has become a good friend but I just don’t feel romantic for her while I still do for LO. But having other people distractions is a great way to lessen the need for LO so I am all for building other old and new relationships and leaning into them.
I’ve just begun a romantic relationship with someone who actually likes me back, which in my forties is a first for me–my ex-husband only liked me as far as I did things for him, and everyone else I’ve ever liked has run away screaming. I feel like my whole experience with LO3 last year was useful as a warm-up experience for learning how to manage my emotions. Not that I’m super great at managing my emotions; I still feel like I’m on a roller coaster ride, but I also think I’m easier to be in a relationship with than I would have been before dealing with my feelings for LO3.
Hello Bridge lover,
so nice to read your message. I’m very pleased for you, that you have found a special someone that you can connect with.
I remember the very real struggles you had with your disinterested LO and it’s good to hear that you can now reflect on that and take the positives from it.
You deserve much happiness and joy with this new person on your life.
Hi Bridgelover,
how great! And how good that you say your limerence experience brought you at least some positive developments.
I can tell you that almost no one is super great at managing their emotions, limerents or not, and that the beginning of a romantic relationship is very often a rollercoaster ride- enjoy the exhilarating moments and good luck to you!!
Bridge lover “I feel like my whole experience with LO3 last year was useful as a warm-up experience for learning how to manage my emotions” this is awesome, for me is was a bitter but useful experience. Sometimes we have to go through certain things to understand or see things thst could not be seem before. Glad for you.
Hi all,
please bear with me, it’s the last week my LO and me live in the same town, so my thoughts go there a lot and I need to go on here maybe for the last week.
I’m actually quite excited because this might be the first time I’ll get out of a LE without transferring to another. Which might mean I could be free of limerence after that.
While I try to maintain friendly contact so as not to spoil the last days, resentment raises its head again and again.
I read the blog post
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-things-go-sour/ again, and while its true that my resentment stems from feeling entitled and wrong expectations, this phrase “If you are in a friendship with someone who repeatedly takes more than they give, the purposeful thing to do is to stop giving so much and re-evaluate the friendship.” did resonate too.
Now I think this resentment that crops up again and again might be a necessary thing to scour my mind of all limerent residue. There was a phase where I regretted this because I didn’t want to ruin the friendship, but now I doubt the friendship and don’t feel that bad about the possibility of losing it.
I won’t actively end it, of course. We still are friends and we had a good time together all these years. But I think maybe I valued it too much. For example, he’s not the person I would turn to in times of need, I realized now. With all the experience of the last months how difficult it is for him to express warmth or talk about emotions or even talk about important stuff like his decision to move, I kind of lost the faith that he would be able to help when I’m in emotional stress, and I even lost faith in other, more practical kind of help than talking something through. he would only ever be able to give what he can give, and that’s very restricted. He still would give all that he can, I know that.
So I’ll once again read through Lost in Spaces (how are you?) words that I’ll copy and paste for myself at the end of this post that ring true for me more than ever, and once again pull myself together and quell that resentment not to spoil the last days.
“I feel for you very much. I feel like you’re dealing with 2 losses here at the same time. There’s the impending loss of your friend as a real presence in your life – he’s set on leaving, and you know him well enough not to harbor any illusions about maintaining a close and meaningful relationship once he’s moved on. At the same time, you’re also dealing with the loss of the fantasy person, the person you’ve always wanted him to be but he never actually could be, the person who communicates openly with you about important things, who goes for real talk instead of frequent but superficial texts. It sounds like that person never really existed – that the real life version your friend is a somewhat emotionally stunted avoidant type who simply could never provide you with the emotional depth and realness that you’ve always wanted from him. But until now, you’ve always held out hope that he could still miraculously become that person… but his inability and/or unwillingness to even let you know about this life-changing decision of his without making you pry it out of his wife has finally put the nail in the coffin of that dream. That’s a painful loss too.
I guess my advice to you (and keep in mind that I’m really in no position to give advice to anyone) would be to do your best to just keep being nice and being cordial to him and enjoy any time together you get with him before he leaves – because one way or another, a year from now he’s going to be gone and all you’re going to be left with are the memories. Right now you get to help craft the last memories you want to have. Do you want some bittersweet but beautiful memories of some nice interactions where perhaps the important things are left unsaid but that’s ok because deep down you both really know them anyway? Or do you want some sour memories of harsh words and painful exchanges as the last memories? My sense is that you were going to ultimately go the kind and cordial route anyway (regardless of how much inner angst you might be feeling and might express here), but I just wanted to add my own voice saying that I’ve pretty much never regretted being gracious and letting things end nicely, but I’ve certainly regretted the couple of times in my life where I acted badly at the end of a relationship and was left with poisoned memories that could never be undone.”
Dear Mila,
This is a big week for you. I remember how LiS’s post resonated with you at the time.
“Right now you get to help craft the last memories you want to have”
I agree with LiS that “curating” this final week to be the best version of a goodbye / final week that it possibly can, may serve everybody best in the long run.
I have been reading Elizabeth Strout and her writing is amazing. How events are presented from different points of view and can look so different to each protagonist. It is a lesson in being graceful, if at all possible. You are a person who always seems to see the other side, kudos to you for that!
The urge to be authentic is very strong with you. And yes, you have felt conflicted about him. But seeing his point of view is also an authentic reaction, one that you have consistently tried to do.
You will find yourself looking back on this, at least for a while, and your future self is more likely to be content with letting things end in their best possible light? I mean, giving him the benefit of the doubt (since this has been a roller coaster, like all LEs are).
When Things Go Sour is a reminder of how we expect too much of our LOs. However, as a friend (limited though he is to what you want) you can perhaps expect a bit more than we would from a random LO who is more of a stranger. I get this. However, when you said that you occupy elevated status to him as one of his closest friends, I believe that means treating him gently and kindly, since this is what your future self will be most proud of. Even if he has been a bit limited in his ability to be a friend to you.
The best thing about your post is the sense of impending freedom. Wow, Mila. You are really making progress. Atta girl!🫡👏💪
Hi Bewitched,
just wanted to ask, which book of Elizabeth Strout would you recommend for me to read? Thanks, also for your kind post, you are right, but as I pointed out, I‘m not sure if I will manage to be generous and treat him gently and kindly, since I feel there‘s no balance, I want to be treated gently and kindly too…
I‘ll try it though, and thanks!
Dearest Mila,
So sorry that you are feeling ill. How awful – and in summertime too. There is some illness going about here too.
I hope you can recharge those batteries in August. You need a rest.
Also, know that you are doing so well, Mila. Really!
Elizabeth Strout won a Pulitzer prize, I think. I loved “Olive Kitteridge” and “Olive Again”. Totally awesome holiday reading. The whole range of humanity is there. Just beautiful and life
-affirming without being sentimental.
Get well soon Mila x
🐦🕊🦉🐦⬛
Hi Mila. Thanks for sharing. I am sure that once LO moves out, you will feel better and better as time goes on. There may be the occasional setback, but managing LE will get easier for sure.
I’m not sure what your social media interactions are like with your LO, as the opportunity to connect virtually will still be there. In my case, virtual interactions (or lack of them) have caused their share of distress, so you would need to be cautious on this front.
I do agree with the advice of being cordial with LO. Sometimes, not liking LO has helped me deal with my emotions in the short term, but this strategy does not work in the long term. Wishing them well and being cordial always works better. Eventually you will need to come up with your strategy.
Going NC is a weird experience in itself. On one hand, you miss the interactions. On the other hand, you’re kind of relieved that you don’t have to deal with the aftermath of those very interactions, so quite bittersweet and ambivalent.
All the best, you got this!!
@Mila,
I can’t agree more with what “Lost in Space” said to you a while ago; it’s such an insightful observation to your LO/LE, as well as mine, while I only had to deal with the second loss primarily (I have the 3rd one…). I just want to add here that be prepared that there might be a period of profound sadness after your FF departs and before you get your desired “freedom”. A mourning process would be needed. With you SO and family around, I assume and hope it will be easier than those unattached limerents.
I also strongly agree with Biwiteched and LiP that it’s a piece of living-art to let go off any bitterness/resentments towards LO/LE and make the last interactions with LO, especially internal, as graceful as possible — it’s truly for our psychological benefits down the road. It’s highly challenging, but you can do it. From all your talks here, I am certain you can paint this painful farewell scenes beautifully with your authentic and skillful brush.
Hi Bewitched, ABCD and Snow,
I‘m really touched by your quick and wise replies!
I do agree that I should end it on a graceful note. But „I mean, giving him the benefit of the doubt“, I think I‘m not prepared to do that any more, since doubt was what gave me so many painful ruminations etc.
I want to accept him as the limited person he is, get him a nice goodbye and then let go.
Now I’m ill since yesterday evening and realized that even though we are texting regularly he won’t know because he doesn’t ask how I am. We only text about him and his stuff. I know, I’m getting into the old resentment again, and I‘m as childish as not to let him know I’m ill (unless he asks how I am) to see if he will propose a meeting before the last goodbye invitation next weekend. My guess is he won’t, because he‘s passive and I already set a date for meeting on the weekend.
I know you are all right. I’m just not sure if I can end it in the best possible light. I will put my resentment or disappointment aside when we meet but I can’t really extinguish it. I think I can get my energy up to make him and his family a nice and warm evening next weekend and say goodbye properly (given that I don’t infect all my family with whatever I‘ve got and somebody will be ill then- that would be actually typical, we had to cancel so many meetings because of illness) but before and after, I’m not sure I manage to let go of hard feelings and just enjoy that he‘s still here (and it seems I won’t see him before anyway.)
Snow, you could be right that I’ll be very sad suddenly. Thanks for pointing it out, I think Imho did it too. Maybe I won’t. But I’m forewarned and forearmed.
Social media won’t be a problem since he‘s not very active there, he posts about once a year on one platform. He uses me as his special Instagram instead, as Imho once correctly observed.
But that won’t be a problem either. I‘m very sure time and distance will solve everything for me at least, he might keep texting but I‘m very sure I can handle that without slipping back.
Thanks you all, I‘ll check out Elizabeth Strout and keep lying in bed. Stay well, all of you!
Mila,
“Now I’m ill since yesterday evening and realized that even though we are texting regularly he won’t know because he doesn’t ask how I am.”
“We only text about him and his stuff.”
“because he‘s passive.”
Can I ask: What is it about this guy that you like? Sometimes it’s a good exercise when limerents think about their LOs. What do I like about my LO? What is he doing/bringing to the table in terms of our interactions?
Two reasons we may let the LO’s inadequacies slide for a (hopefully) short amount of time … they look really good and/or they’re laying it down really well. The latter is much more important. I’m being honest here. 🙂
Hi Marcia,
Sorry, no, that’s not where I want to go now, since of course he has very good sides I feel tempted to count them to show you he‘s actually really a nice and special guy (he is, nothing like you suggest- laying down nothing and also not good-looking in a conventional way)but as I said, I don’t think it would do me much good…
I understand that I paint a negative picture of him since I always load off here and also count his bad sides to heal myself from the LE, but it’s not the whole picture, of course.
But thanks for the suggestion , actually it is exactly what I was doing in the last days, hence the resentful feelings that are probably a good way out, but I don’t want to reinforce them even more since I feel the best way out is not feeling anger again, but accepting his good and bad sides and be at peace with it all.
Mila,
“But thanks for the suggestion , actually it is exactly what I was doing in the last days, hence the resentful feelings that are probably a good way out, ”
Idk. If someone didn’t ask about me and spent all his time talking about himself … I’ll be frank: That would not be someone I would call a BFF. That would be a friendly acquaintance I’d back away from.
“but I don’t want to reinforce them even more since I feel the best way out is not feeling anger again, but accepting his good and bad sides and be at peace with it all.”
I was angry at my LO after going NC. I think it’s easier to be angry than sad. But I’m not angry anymore. I do feel resentment that I wasted the last years of my time on him, but there’s nothing I can do about it now.
Marcia,
„I’ll be frank: That would not be someone I would call a BFF.“
Exactly! That’s what I‘m working on. You got to know him to know that I’m still his BFF. But he‘s not mine. Of course, as I said, i tell you here mostly only the bad stuff. He generally does ask about me and he doesn’t talk about himself all the time. But he behaved like that in the last week or so, and since it’s the last week, I take that as a disappointment and as a reason to back away, as you said.
But, given that he‘ll be gone anyway very soon, I try to keep things amiably and stay friends. I‘ll feel much better if I behaved like a friend should (no matter how he behaves) until he’s gone, and then it’ll be over anyway.
(Yes it will, and his behavior does help.)
Thanks Marcia!
Hi Marcia.
Lying in bed I’ve got too much time and now I wonder, what does „they are laying it down really well“ mean? I don’t know the expression actually, and I think I might interpret it wrongly😅
Mila,
Lying in bed I’ve got too much time and now I wonder, what does „they are laying it down really well“ mean?
Lol. Here’s what the urban dictionary says: “to be good at satisfying a woman sexually. This could include intercourse or other means. As used in a sentence: I know Jethro has no money, no job, and no car. But he can really lay it DOWN, you hear me?”
I love the sentence. It’s so dead-on. 🙂
Hi Marcia,
ha! 😂didn’t expect that.
I like that sentence too!
Well, you would have to ask his SO if he can really lay it down.
I prefer to think he cannot, in my current resentful mood, but on the other side, I do hope so, for her;)
Mila,
“Well, you would have to ask his SO if he can really lay it down.”
Not a conversation I’d want to have with an LO’s SO. 🙂
“I prefer to think he cannot, in my current resentful mood, but on the other side, I do hope so, for her;)”
You’re much more generous than I was. If he didn’t want to do it with me, I hoped my LO was condemned to lousy sex for the rest of his days. 🙂
Hi Marcia,
I love it! I know I’ll feel better in the long run being generous, but I do have my own deliciously mean thoughts now and then. Since LO and his SO are such goody-two-shoes persons (is that the right expression?) – mainly because they don‘t realize that in reality they are not that good and generous (and that it‘s mostly a certain sense of humour they are lacking) – I feel and felt in the past sometimes sorely tempted to do or say something really bad or inappropriate. Like suddenly yelling in a silent place.
Now you put it in my head to ask his SO suddenly on this goodbye dinner, if LO can really lay it down. I have to think of a fitting expression in my language though.
You know what, Marcia, this idea of asking her, and the faces they both would then make, cheered me up disproportionately after a lousy day of headache and running nose. Thanks for that laugh.
OK but don’t do it, Mila (imho). I don’t necessarily understand the subtleties of the conversation that I have intruded upon but…
Get well soon!
Also, the final meeting etc., moderation maybe. Yes, gracious long-lasting memories, of course, but no need not to allude to things that have been unfair if you feel strongly enough.
Such a personal thing and such a fine balance. All this in my humble opinion.
f
Mila,
“Since LO and his SO are such goody-two-shoes persons (is that the right expression?) – mainly because they don‘t realize that in reality they are not that good and generous (and that it‘s mostly a certain sense of humour they are lacking) – I feel and felt in the past sometimes sorely tempted to do or say something really bad or inappropriate. Like suddenly yelling in a silent place.”
You could just start saying weird s**t. 🙂
I pictured my LO’s SO as a dull woman. And he needed me to show him the real fun. 🙂 (I had no proof she was dull, but it was a narrative I liked to tell myself. )
“Now you put it in my head to ask his SO suddenly on this goodbye dinner, if LO can really lay it down. I have to think of a fitting expression in my language though.”
Why does the SO have to be there? Talk about someone throwing cold water on everything? 🙂
“You know what, Marcia, this idea of asking her, and the faces they both would then make, cheered me up disproportionately after a lousy day of headache and running nose. Thanks for that laugh.”
You’re welcome. 🙂
Hi Marcia and frederico!
Marcia,
„Why does the SO have to be there?“
my LO has been my friend for 10 years which means I know his SO and kid and it would very weird to invite him to a goodbye dinner without them.
No, of course I won’t do nothing like that, frederico, we were only kidding , most that I‘ll do is think of Marcis and have silent chuckle.
„Also, the final meeting etc., moderation maybe. Yes, gracious long-lasting memories, of course, but no need not to allude to things that have been unfair if you feel strongly enough.“
I feel very strongly at the moment, but I might be unfair. I actually struggle if I should have a final authentic rant at him or not. I know I shouldn’t but it’s very tempting.
No, not a rant but you are an intelligent insightful lady – no flattery intended. The only experience I have is my own, of course. After seven months, how do I feel? Against the advice of a couple of friends, whilst I was kind, positive and upbeat in what I projected, I still let it be known that… etc. etc.
Now I feel ok about it, kind of. There was a balance, I think. I could explain it in detail but that would be self-serving and not necessarily of any help to you. You are wise lady, I reckon.
I’ll leave it there. I do keep meaning to bow out!
Much affection,
f
Mila,
“I actually struggle if I should have a final authentic rant at him or not. I know I shouldn’t but it’s very tempting.”
I wouldn’t do that in front of the SO and their child.
I guess if you feel you need to have some kind of big, final conversation to be able to lessen the limerence, I’d highly recommend at least doing it over the phone. Texting is rife for miscommunication.
And then there is just a very practical matter. He doesn’t seem like the most communicative of people. Is he able to have that kind of conversation?
Mila,
I hope you are feeling better. I have also been ill. There is a lot of COVID around.
Anyway, you know how it should play out this farewell dinner, I’m sure. It’s not a final thing. you will see them all again at a future event , such as Christmas maybe ? to take some of the weight off the meaningfulness of the occasion if you know what I mean.
I hope you will wear a fabulous outfit as the amazing host you will be. Try to enjoy it and have fun together with your SO.
Hi Marcia,
I would never open such a conversation if weren’t alone with him! I‘d never rant at a friend in front of their or my family.
You are absolutely right that this could only be over phone, but I‘m not sure if I should do it at all. As I wrote to Lim-a-rant, I calmed down a bit, and you are very right to point out his inability to contribute to an honest conversation of that sort . It would be me talking the whole time and he would answer like always (since it’s not the first time I told him I’m hurt by his behavior) that he is just like that and tries to change it but apparently can’t. Or something of that import. So what use would it be.
But my head is bad and I need to rethink tomorrow, thank you for sound advice!
Hi Imho,
Thanks, I’m very sure about the farewell dinner (if it happens since I’m not sure whom I infected), this will play out fine. Although I might look a wreck having been ill. Fabulous outfits are at this moment out of my range of imagination…
I‘m just not sure if I need to tell him a bit of my view before that. I felt the strong urge to do so since it all feels so stilted and fake, being the last week and all.
I‘ll surely not see them at Christmas. I guess the next time might be in January.
I surely don’t want to be limerent for him until then, so I really have to have a think what’s best to behave now. Getting it off my chest or just leave it all be.
I‘m very thankful for your compassion. You all help me so much!
Frederico,
Thanks! Just discovered your post. I know what you mean about the balance, or I think I know.
It’s just that I already had my rants at him (and they were not uncontrolled rants, I tried to be fair and kind too)and it might be futile to have another one at the end.
It’s all a matter of perspective, and the thing is that I can shift from this to that and not know which serves me best (that’s the downside of being able to see everything from different sides, Bewitched..)
I‘ll sleep on it, hopefully.
Good night!
Mila,
” It would be me talking the whole time and he would answer like always (since it’s not the first time I told him I’m hurt by his behavior)”
If you’ve already brought it up, I wouldn’t bring it up again.
Is what you asked him to do, for lack of a better word, reasonable? For example, it hurts when you leave my texts on read for days. Could you please acknowledge you received them more quickly?
But I think it has to be something that he could change or fix, given his basic personality. You can’t ask someone who is uncommunicative, for example, to suddenly become expressive.
When is this dinner? And I assume you’ll be wearing something short, tight, and inappropriate? 🙂 (Sorry, couldn’t help myself.)
Hi Marcia,
you are right, even if I could ask something reasonable to change in his behavior (like I would appreciate if he asked how I am from time to time)it wouldn’t help because it wouldn’t change his basic personality. And I would feel like a nagging housewife again.
At the moment I’m not sure if this dinner will take place at all (Saturday) since I finally got the proof it’s Covid (having guessed so before and isolated myself from family). Of course I would try to look good, but at the moment I‘m too weary and don’t feel good enough in my body to wear something sexy.. Marcia, maybe you could take over, wear something sexy, say inappropriate things and get this dinner off the rails? It would distract from my poor mental and physical state.
Hi Mila,
“you are right, even if I could ask something reasonable to change in his behavior (like I would appreciate if he asked how I am from time to time)it wouldn’t help because it wouldn’t change his basic personality. ”
Well, honestly, I don’t think asking him to ask about you is too much to ask, and I don’t think it’s asking him to change his personality. That’s a pretty easy thing to fix, IMO. I think giving people easy things to fix — hey, I’d really like if we had a phone call once a month versus just texting, for example — is reasonable. Say what you need and say how they can provide it.
But asking him to be able to have a deep conversations about his feelings when he sounds like he’s not all that expressive … that’s probably too much.
“And I would feel like a nagging housewife again.”
That’s why I probably wouldn’t ask a second time. I’d feel like I was begging.
“At the moment I’m not sure if this dinner will take place at all (Saturday) since I finally got the proof it’s Covid (having guessed so before and isolated myself from family). ”
Sorry you’re not feeling well. But won’t you have quarantined long enough by Saturday?
“Of course I would try to look good, but at the moment I‘m too weary and don’t feel good enough in my body to wear something sexy.”
I was being a little sarcastic, but, yes, I would make some effort to look good. Makeup did. Hair did. Flattering outfit. Leave him with a good final image. 🙂
Hi Marcia,
there’s no quarantine or any rules here anymore, but if my test is still positive on Saturday I wouldn’t risk infecting him or his family. Also there’s a chance that someone else from my family develops symptoms before Saturday. It’s still an infection one doesn’t want to give to anybody else.
To be honest, if I look on Saturday like I do today, no make up or dress will fix that🙈I look the mess I’m feeling. We’ll see.
But actually there’s a chance I might see him end of summer, so it’s maybe not that big a goodbye I would miss if we had to cancel .
You are right that it’s not much to ask, but since I already asked stuff like that two times (both reasonable requests/in one case disappointment after an easy request he didn’t follow)it’s better I don’t start again. It’s no use now, he’ll leave anyway, and I plan to be independent of his behavior soon.
I feel better now after the phone call, all back to normal after my nocturnal raving.
Mila,
” It’s still an infection one doesn’t want to give to anybody else.”
True. I don’t know how it works in terms of testing. Would you test positive anyway even if you had quarantined for several days? Does a second test show a still-active infection?
“You are right that it’s not much to ask, but since I already asked stuff like that two times (both reasonable requests/in one case disappointment after an easy request he didn’t follow)it’s better I don’t start again. It’s no use now, he’ll leave anyway, and I plan to be independent of his behavior soon.”
If it were me, I don’t think I’d consider this guy a good friend. I’d feel like I was drawing him out and always wanting more from him. Tbh, that’s the very definition of limerence. Always wanting more than what the LO is giving.
Hi Marcia,
He’s as good a friend as he can be I guess, and it hasn’t bothered me much when I wasn’t limerent.
I’d like to get back to that state of mind.
Well, the test just shows if there are virus cells in my nose, no matter if I’m
in quarantine or not. If there are, I can still spread them, even if my symptoms went down. But in most cases the test is negative when the symptoms are gone.
@Mila,
Sending my ghostly 🫂 to your confinement bed (although it’s not the same as your FF’s words)!
It’s absolutely normal to feel all sorts of negative emotions and think discouraging thoughts during any physical ailment. I’ve fully tasted such side effects in the past two weeks while experiencing all typical covid symptoms under the extreme hot weather…🔥
Please sleep/rest well, let your SO and family pamper you. Do NOT worry about and fight with whatever come up in your head… Remember intrinsic/interlocked effects of body and mind…
I wish you a speedy recovery! 🤢 ❤️🩹
Thanks Snow!
Might be Covid too, just run out of tests and will make one tomorrow, maybe.
Yes, it doesn’t help to feel physically poor, and it doesn’t help to lie in bed with too much time and a headache.
Thank you for the kind words, I hope you are well now!
Speedy recovery, Mila! I’ve been sick, too. Seems like a cold or flu I picked up on vacation. And I hear it’s been going around.
Thanks Serial Limerent!
Hope you are well now in all respects.
Mila,
I reckon – think carefully about what will be best to look back on and reconcile with, imagining how it will feel once you are out of the intensity of this final week.
What type of last in-person memories will make it easiest for you to transition into the new state of him moving away? What last in-person memories do you want him to have of you? Which type are the best guard against the limerence returning in the new living situation? Use that to shape the interactions. (No need to answer these questions here if you don’t want to – just some ideas for you).
May not apply, but sometimes it is enough just to know something for ourselves, than to waste futile time and energy trying to convince those too blind to see it.
Fingers crossed all goes OK for you.
I second this! Well said, Lim-a-rant. Mila, don’t do something you’ll regret later. Please don’t ask his wife if he is good in bed. Can you imagine a woman asking you that question about your husband? I wouldn’t like it and I wouldn’t like the woman who asked it.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
Thank you for these wise words. I cannot sleep, I ran in my head through thousand angry words to LO, I think my brain is a bit addled by illness. It’s a bit difficult in this state of mind to imagine what it would feel like later since the urge for authenticity is strong. But I kind of lived through it in the last sleepless hour and I‘m calm again.
I‘ll think it over in daytime and won’t do anything rash.
Lovisa,
Please tell me you didn’t believe I would do that!
It was just a joke with Marcia. Of course I would never do such a thing.
I get it Mila – illness plus the intensity of the last week is a huge cocktail of brain addled-ness to deal with at once.
I really struggle with the desire for authenticity too. Sometimes I am totally consumed with the idea of having it all out on the table with my LO and just letting it play out from there, however that may go. When it happens I journal or write letters to her I’ll never send, or I come here and just read stuff.
Limerent Emeritus has made the point to people here many times “what would you do with the information if you had it?”. This is key for me. Whether I knew one way or the other if LO reciprocates, or if I get a vague answer, none of these have a good outcome in my position. The response is also unpredictable and hands them power to do what they want with (DrL). Not saying all that applies to you, but it is these points that have pulled me back in my weakest “must be authentic and have this out with LO” moments.
I am far, far from being out of the woods, but looking back at each of these weak moments, “do / say nothing” was actually the most purposeful move and I thank myself for doing nothing.
I am also yet to read an account on here where having things out with an LO led to a great outcome (happy for anyone to prove me wrong). I know we don’t have a fair sample here mind you, as those who got good outcomes are presumably having far too much fun to spend time hanging out on LwL 😂
But dammit I get it how this ‘be authentic’ drive can hit us over the head like a tidal wave. Hang on to those thoughts from LiS that you quoted further up, as you swim through the wave.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
Thank you. I wouldn’t have it out with him by disclosing to him. I feel the need to show him that I‘m hurt by his unfriendly behavior. But now after all the amazing responses here and after a horrible night of little sleep I think it’s a bad idea.
I‘m sure disclosing when there are SOs and family involved is almost always a bad idea.
While authenticity is good sometimes and can clear the air and bring people closer, in this case it’s a dangerous thing, and, as Snow points out, „authenticity“ isn’t always what it seems to be in that altered state of limerence.
Like you say, it’s like a wave, combined with physical weakness and sadness, I’ll ride it out.
Thanks, I really appreciate your thoughtful replies!
Mila, I’m glad it was just a joke. It is a funny thing to think about. I didn’t think you would do it, but just in case you were serious, I wanted to stop you from making a big mistake.
Hi Lovisa,
no really, I would never be so mean and inappropriate. It just lifted my heavy mood to think about a scenario where I did that, it was only funny to think of the havoc I would create because it would never ever happen, of course. Sometimes it’s good for me to lighten up a bit and not take everything so bloody serious, and my sense of humor can be a bit special, I know.
Sorry if I frightened you that I would do this to his really nice SO! I’d never!
Hi Mila,
Thanks. Maybe I judge things too much by my own LE at times. If I ever went for my LO over occasional ‘unfriendly’ behaviour, I feel I’d be speeding downhill towards disclosure faster than I could control. I never really have ‘real’ cause to think she’s being unfriendly / less friendly, but I think I do in the heat of moments, if that makes sense. Once I can put my ‘altered state of mind’ back in its box, I can see the less friendly or more friendly days as just the undulations of any normal mood cycle and friendship (as LO sees it, ie just being normal? not giving hours to rumination on every little detail like the limerent’s brain does). An objective observer would never see my LO as being anything less than friendly to me. Only as I’m over sensitive to it (over dependant for mood regulation), do I even sense ups and downs. If I ride a down out, I will always get confirmation of what I need to know the next time I speak to her (that nothing is ‘up’ with us). It sounds ridiculous when I put it this way, but you’ll understand. I thank heaven I have such consistent behaviour as the limerence could do awful things to my mood otherwise. But like I have said before, it is a double edged sword as it challenges my resolve to do the lower contact strategies that I really need to. I’d like to pick your brains more about how to overcome this and start dialling it down, but will definitely let you get current events out of the way first.
But my LE is not yours, and i know that. If you have known him a long time and you find him consistently unfriendly now, maybe it is more of a reliable indicator than muddled limerent thinking. I understand the drive to have it out for authenticity so very much. But I am always thankful in hindsight when I don’t.
From what I have learned about your LO there may be mutuality on some level, but also avoidance on his part of admitting it, least of all displaying it. Perhaps he thinks that the forthcoming move will be easier on you both if he isn’t too friendly at this point, or maybe he is just too wrapped up in his own stuff. But I’m guessing now.
Hang in there!
Hi Lim-a-rant,
Beware, I had an insight while writing to you and keep on a bit🙈
Thanks, your perspective is very helpful, it’s also not so different from my experience.
What’s maybe different is that my LO is indeed a bit special, not only perceived by me.
He might be on an autistic spectrum or something else, I’m not familiar with these terms, but he is someone who is very inside himself, doesn’t show emotions, loves to have the same things, routines, persons around him, is a very loyal and sincere person and very diligent and great at his job. Just a few days ago one of my (and his former) colleagues said of him (LO was in a leading position)”In the beginning I had a problem with his never hot/never cold/never emotional behavior, but now I realize we depended so much on him and what we have lost”. He seems always distant, you barely dare hugging or touching him, he often shrinks away.
His shows of emotion are very subtle and easy to miss. He loved it when I took initiative and talked about personal stuff or hugged him, but it was a big deal for him when he started such a thing, and he almost never does.
Actually he probably has been very consistent, but with growing limerence I craved more reciprocation and interpreted more, the same up and downs as you describe them. He, being scared of having to decide to move , clung more to me than before and gave more signs than are normal for him I guess, I definitely think he was reciprocating in his restrained way. At the same time, he would never admit it really to himself, it would destroy his view of himself and his values etc.
But although I do know how he is and where his limits are, limerence is selfish at the core, and it started to be never enough for me.
I started to expect things he’s just too limited to give, I guess. I got tired of always being the more open one, the more forthcoming, pulling him into a hug, opening that honest conversation, things that are the cause of him liking me so much, but he almost never manages to do himself. I didn’t mind when he wasn’t that important in my life, but once limerence started, I got aware of the disbalance.
It’s why Marcia (hi!)and other people naturally don’t understand why I bother – it’s very easy to paint him as inconsiderate and passive, because he is, but on the same time , he isn’t, he’s just very much inside himself, and I’m still one of the most important people in his life (I’m not deluded here, he said so himself).
I’m very glad I didn’t tell him how he should have behaved once more. I did two times, and his reaction was never angry, but admitting that he lacks something and tries to work on it, but that he seems to be wired differently and it’s not only me who tells him so.
But these waves of anger at not getting the desired warmth are hard to ride out, because it’s always a kind of reasonable anger (someone else would talk to me about it being the last week, would say he’s sorry we won’t see other that often any more, would actively seek my presence, would ask how I am etc etc), but then it’s not, because he’s always been lukewarm and will always be.
If we ceased to hug and things got a bit colder, it’s not him being unfriendly, but actually it’s because I’m the one who is always in control of the temperature switch. When I get angry like I do a lot now and dial down, he won’t dial it up. When I don’t hug or at least make a move towards him, he won’t dare to initiate.
Marcia will say, why do I bother with such a guy? But the rare times he shows emotion, it’s very touching, and his smile is always sincere, it’s all much more precious because he doesn’t deal it out so easily, and I really know that I’m very much in his heart.
“ Perhaps he thinks that the forthcoming move will be easier on you both if he isn’t too friendly at this point, or maybe he is just too wrapped up in his own stuff. But I’m guessing now.‘
He would never do the first, that’s beyond him and he doesn’t think about what’s easier for anyone, he is just very avoidant. I think he is wrapped up in his stuff, which is understandable since he has got a lot going on.
Today I can see it much more neutrally, thanks to you.
“ I’d like to pick your brains more about how to overcome this and start dialling it down, but will definitely let you get current events out of the way first.”
I’m not sure if I can be a big help since I seem helpless myself to this rollercoaster, but once my head is clear of Covid and impending departure of LO, we can talk about it more! At the moment I’m quite selfish here, I’m afraid, just going on about myself, sorry.
Mila
This situation prompts me into a “back to basics” response, partly because you and your LO have SOs both have families who could still potentially be hurt in some way.
It seems clear that your limerence has caused you distress and pain and I think you will be relieved when he finally leaves. I still don’t really believe it’s possible to just be friends, even if there was originally a normal friendship.
People sometimes say that they wish their LO would move away or change jobs and they believe that everything will suddenly improve. No contact and separation can be devastating though and there can be profound loneliness at times. It takes a lot of grit.
In my case there was “ghosting” as well which brought other emotions. I have seen posts which express surprise at the length of time it can take to get over a LE. It can indeed take years and the laudable ambition of purposeful living can be difficult and challenging to achieve, depending on circumstances.
I hope you will soon be recovered from your bout of covid.
Hi frederico,
while I can reassure you that there will be no hurt inflicted on any family (there were much more dangerous phases in this LE, but we are out of those waters),
thank you for reminding me that this will take time and not be abruptly solved only because he left town.
But I’m quite confident that time and distance will solve it in this case. There will be contact for sure, and I believe in staying friends, but much less close friends- someone you see once a year and it’s nice and you always are glad to hear from them, but the rest of the year they are not present in your mind (I’ve got a few of such friends, one is my Ex-LO).
If he keeps texting a lot, I’ll have to dial that down and that could hurt for a while, but he already started to text less, and I think that’s a sign of this mutual fixation going down, because the reason (uncertainty if he leaves) is removed for him, and if I don’t cling to it and let go, it will naturally be less and less contact.
It might take a while since he might still be in town end of summer, I might see him now and then, but I even these sporadic appearances will die down from March on, I guess.
I think in case of separation ghosting is awful (and a sign of immaturity in your LO, in my opinion) and makes it harder than amiable contact that dies down over years.
At the moment I’ve this dizzy head, I cannot yet work but still think, that’s why I’m reliving this LE, but once I’m busy (next week hopefully) it will get much easier.
But we’ll see. I overcame the last LEs by transferring to other LOs, and this time I’m determined to make it all work without any LE, LO and whatever limerence bs💪🏻💪🏻
I hope you are doing well Frederico, how was the beach??
Mila
Thank you for the reply and the reassurances. I admire how you seem to have everything carefully worked out and I really hope it all goes to plan. Everyone has different experiences, that’s for sure. I did have a visit from an LO from thirty years ago recently. We had exchanged birthday cards over the years and it was simply pleasant to see him again – nothing else.
It was thoughtful of you to ask about the seaside holiday. It was enjoyable and getting away was a milestone for me.
All very best,
f
frederico,
I’ve got it all worked out finely, but I’m the first who could sabotage my own plans;)
Good to hear that the holiday was a success, you could do that more often, couldn’t you? Or look for more milestones to pass.
I’m not doing well on the sugar front, by the way, I hope you are virtuous for the two of us.
Mila (t.m.i. alert)
I would keep plugging away at the blood sugar when you’re better. It will happen. Somehow mine is now normal. I didn’t think I would do it. I’m still overweight (I know you’re not), which is a legacy from the artificial hormones I had to have. The effects of the hormones are due to wear off in a few months. I think I may be like an elderly menopausal lady. I need to work on the weight now too.
Holidays are possible, if quite demanding to achieve!
f x
Hi frederico,
wow, you made it, you got your sugar down! I think I’m in a bad way🙈but I’ll try to be better.
Could be that your weight comes off once the hormones left your body, meanwhile movement is a good start, I guess!
How about next holidays in the mountains, with daily easy hikes through beautiful landscape!
I wish for a real holiday now …
@Mila,
Thanks for your long explanation and no need to be worried about talking about your situation a lot. I understand what a rollercoaster spell this is for you.
I think I get him much better from all you’ve said, and also the reasons you’ve been drawn to him.
In my LE, the LO takes more the role that you do (controls
the temperature levers) and I am more like your LO. She is more extraverted than me (often extraverts and introverts can attract as friends or more). The consistency I experience is more – when I can detach from the limerent brain – her being consistently warm, just never above a morally wrong level to either of us.
But I’m not as avoidant as it sounds like your LO is. The balance in my case sounds more even.
You said to Marcia earlier that we don’t get the choice of who is our LO and when, no matter how inconvenient. You’re spot on. This LE is damn inconvenient. From the male perspective of being limerent while partnered, my more avoidant behaviours come from recognising the amber lights and not wanting to drive through them, and the moral dissonance that causes me to pull back. I am better at this (and will appear more indifferent to my LO) even after moderate NC spells like a week or two. For sure this subsides every time and I become more engaged again.
I will be honest – I struggle to think that your LO hasn’t felt any of these amber lights and then gone
colder because of it at times. But you make a very convincing case that actually it is different, and some large part of him wont even recognise it to himself. So he just carries on his business in his own ‘consistently average’ way.
The other bit I relate to in what you said is how it feels special that he gives you access to more of himself than he gives other people. Despite my LO’s extraversion, a lot of it is superficial. At the deeper level there are a lot of walls. I’ve been allowed behind them. Its both an incredible thing and a recipe for a toxic limerence cocktail.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
that has always been the big question: did he see amber lights, or did he just plough on in his pre-set ways and didn’t notice anything, or did he see me hesitating at the amber lights…
I think he saw amber lights for himself, but never believed in the possibility for him to cross them because it wouldn’t fit his view of himself (and of me, probably), so he never felt in danger. He‘s very pre-set.
So I wouldn’t probably attach the term limerent to him since I don’t think he‘s capable of my torments and pain about it, I think he had/has a major consistent but not very troubling crush for me, also because he needed someone/something in his old workplace to cling to while in the for him very disturbing situation of hanging between two workplaces.
Now that this situation is resolved, he doesn’t need to cling that much, that’s maybe why he texts less (or it’s because I did, bring the mover and maker in this friendship).
I cannot quite remember and not see from your post- do you think your friend feels a bit more than friendship too, or is she just a consistently warm friend? Or are you not sure?
Hi Mila,
“I cannot quite remember and not see from your post- do you think your friend feels a bit more than friendship too, or is she just a consistently warm friend? Or are you not sure?”
I am literally 50-50. One day I think ‘warm friend’, one day I think ‘bit more’. I used to lean more the second way but people here (hat tips especially to Lovisa, Speedwagon) have helped me relook at the first as a strong possibility.
We have been friends for about 12 years, but a couple years ago she started to invest much more time and effort in me than before, and also more than she does in other men. That was what triggered my glimmer and LE for her. But there are many reasons that could explain why she’d have decided to invest more even just as a warm friend (some of which I cant say for fear of identifying) – and I reciprocated the increased investment.
All I can say is that if she has sensed leakage from me then it at least doesn’t bother her, as she has not pulled back. It might be the mild interest/crush like you think your LO may have, or it might be nothing more than she is happy with the warm friendship and knows I won’t act to change it because of my SO (LO knows I continue to want to be with SO).
I came very close to a nuclear disclosure months ago ‘just to find out for my peace of mind’ (what I said when I first appeared here, and what people replied, is on the ‘when not to disclose’ post, if of interest). I then realized with the big help of stories on LWL how self-serving and unlikely to achieve anything that would be. So I am left with thinking that the only way through will be LC, which might lose LO as a friend. I have started some small actions to reduce contact and prioritise SO more. But my actions are fairly minor so far compared to what is needed to shut it down. This is because I am not ready on some level to start fully letting LO go. I do recognize that it might have to happen though. I’d like to find a way through without losing the friendship, but people’s stories here about that don’t fill me with hope!! (Even DrL doesn’t see it as likely)
You’ve been a big help so far Mila. You’re kind and understanding but without sugar-coating it all, which is a good balance.
Hope your Covid fog is clearing. Covid is awful. I have had it several times but each got milder.
Lim-a-rant,
I get it. Difficult situation and it’s very hard for you to know what’s what, does she feel the same etc. since it’s almost impossible to judge it neutrally.
„LO knows I continue to want to be with SO“
This alone would be enough for her not to give you any „dangerous“ signs or encouragments, no matter what she feels. So it’s hard to know.
The thing is, you could guess forever and turn in circles. Maybe it would be an idea to choose one view and stick to it, because in the end it doesn’t matter which view is true- as long as you want to leave both your marriages intact, the behavior would stay the same, so you could choose whichever view would make it the easiest for you.
That sounds contrived and sarcastic, but there’s truth in it…
Easier said than done, I know, haven’t managed it myself.
I still think it’s possible for me in my special case to stay friends. The friendship might change, but it will change anyway by his leaving.
I‘m not sure in your case, but I’m sure that there’s a lot happening in the world we never might have guessed, so never say never- it’s all in your mind and I think you are a very self-aware and considerate person, you will see where the path leads to and act accordingly.
I feel a tiny bit better today but not much- I‘ve got Covid 3 times and cannot really say it got milder. The first time was the mildest, I guess.
Thanks for your good wishes and undeserved compliments, I wish you all the luck in the world because I do know how hard this situation can be.
Mila,
Thank you again – you are wise!
I do think it might be possible for you to salvage friendship with your LO if him moving away can help you tamp down what’s left of the limerence as you plan, and if you can reconcile with what he is and isn’t, as others have suggested.
I agree it will take time to work out my path. I also agree that it is better to work with the view that my LO just likes me as a friend. Because to question it serves no useful purpose in this situation. I’m getting better at it but it is hard as you know. There are good days and bad days and the famous ‘dance’ we discussed before. I am determined not to spin in circles, hence being on here picking brains about it so much lately (though I know that can gets counter productive in the end).
Neither of us is married btw, but long term partnered, so that nuance doesn’t change anything in this discussion or my head.
The question I have, that I’d like you to wait to answer until your head is clearer and you’ve got the main LO departure bits done, is what helped you ramp it down from full on heart of limerence feelings, to back to the nearer-FF level you have now? Honestly no hurry.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
I really have to think about this question a bit. At the moment I try to work a bit at home but my head seems to explode. I think there were more than one factor at play, but I’ll think about it and come back to it.
Also I think you are spot on that in my case it depends on if I can reconcile with his real self and put him in a normal place instead on the special-friend-pedestal’s.
I didn’t mean it’s the best thing to think that she feels just as a friend, I actually meant, choose what’s best for your mental health- if it’s better to believe she would like more than friendship, and you play it through in your mind and decide that that cannot happen anyway and that you will be the sensible one and pull back, if that works better for you, than that might be the way- we are all different in what we need to overcome this stuff.
Mila, thank you again. It’s a nice point about there being different paths to pick to the same destination depending what feels best mentally.
It helps sometimes just to come here and (after months of being a passive reader initially) now let off a bit of steam and get a reply – sometimes that’s all it needs to reduce the bad days and keep things in perspective.
I’m conscious that there is a similarity in both our stories of long term close friendships before the LEs. This means we say we are striving for post limerence friendships of sorts. For many here reading this, it isn’t a possible outcome or something they should strive for. For you I think it is possible, for me I am not sure – I may still be bargaining unrealistically with myself. Time will tell.
@Mila,
As I said yesterday that it’s quite understandable that an illness could make anyone feel very irritated, resentful, or even outrageous about the past events… . But I could not help ask you a couple of the genuinely puzzling questions:
1. Your FF and you were a decade old friend; before your LE last year, were you often and this much upset about his personality traits, communication and expressiveness styles?
2. What differences were your expectations of him and your friendship back then and during this LE?
3. If answer is Yes (you were also often irritated…), then what did you do in the previous years when you were disappointed in him or his behaviors? Did you rant at him? Calmly talked out?
4. If answer is not, WHAT do you think is making you so often upset/angry about his behaviors (text messages) throughout the past year? Were his personality/behaviors, or his pending departure, or your LE responsible for your current mood swings or something else? Could you dig deeper to find out WHAT is root of this unrelenting resentment? Using Dr L’s concept: where is the sense of entitlement or unrealistic expectations originated from? 🧐
“I‘m just not sure if I need to tell him a bit of my view before that. I felt the strong urge to do so since it all feels so stilted and fake, being the last week and all.”
5. As many have already asked you: What is your ultimate goal of telling him about your view? What differences or progresses would it make to him, to you, to your long-cherished friendship? Possibly enriching it or ruining it? Where do you think this “need” comes from? What would happen if this “need” is not be met?
6. What is “it” that “all feels so stilted and fake, being the last week and all”? How are you sure your currently feelings are not still a part of LE’s “altered mental state”?
When I said you have “authentic and skillful” brush to paint a living art, I meant that you have been shown/viewed, in LwL space, as consistently caring, forgiving, empathetic, courageous, and supportive to so many others; then why not to your long-time FF?
Being upset, angry, grumpy is NOT a part of anyone’s innate authenticity, it’s a reaction/response towards external or internal (in)actions of others/the world or ourselves, in a long or short terms. The same could be said to our other emotions; they come and go, rise and fall. Having and experiencing them is totally natural and should shameless, but acting them out will change colors and images of your life canvas… as well as that of others…
When “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”, picture what an angry rant or even subtly-resentful revealing of your LE-affected views could bring to you, your life (with SO and family), and your friendship with FF?
I feel urged to say this because it is relevant to my recent moods (more of sadness and depression), affected also by the illness and slow recovery.
Hi Snow,
Thanks, that’s a very helpful post. I won’t answer the questions here in writing now since I feel not very good after this stupid night, but you put the finger on it.
Yes, I used to be irritated by his behavior from time to time during the years I wasn’t limerent, but then I either kept a bit more distance or hinted at how he could behave otherwise, but that was exclusively about incidents with other people, not with me, when he could benefit from it.
Of course it’s a sign of still lingering limerence, but aside from the terminology, also an effect of us getting a bit too close to each other. If you have such frequent contact, things and behavior start to rub up more than when you have infrequent contact with a person.
On the bottom of it is, of course, sadness.
As you say, it’s acerbated by illness, having had Covid for the third time I know that I get restless and have trouble sleeping, also one has suddenly time to think about things pushed back in busy times.
I already decided not to rant, but after your post I’ll also try not to be subtly resentful, something I have been in the past (and why I thought it might be better to get it off my chest once to be able to stop behaving petulantly) and just let it go.
Thanks Snow!
Are you still recovering? If I read it right, it took you two weeks? Not to speak of this dinner I already see vanishing on the horizon- (an apt ending to this LE full of canceling dates because of illness and not-lived or talked-through emotions and experiences) I have to work next week, really have to…
I got the impression Covid has a special impact on brain and mood, or maybe any infection of that size has it. I do hope you feel better, physically and mentally.
@Mila
Please never feel obligated to answer any of my questions at any given time. I often asked rhetorical questions for the recipients and especially myself to think about or ponder over, I learned this method from one of my early therapists, who was very frustrated for 1.5 years by my rebellious traits against any good-intended advice or preaching (originated from “battling” with my loving but authoritarian Dad), I needed to figure things out BY myself.
Underneath almost all anger, resentment, and jealousy lie our fear and sadness to lose (wished or perceived) LO’s affection, and their physical or metaphysical presence in our life. We intellectually admit that we’re incapable of changing the said situations, but our sensitive heart could not endure and go through the pains they inflict, so hostile emotions naturally raise their heads to “protect” our deep vulnerabilities. I’ve been through all those hostile emotions during this LE, and I’m passively staying in, not fighting with, its post saddening and depressive effects…
Yes, it was my first covid, which makes me never so sleepy and tired even 2.5 weeks afterwards (but anxiety free — the other side of the coin). Ideally, more sleeps could make the infected body better rested, but “over sleeping” has always made me physically depressed (mentioned before), which then led to mental depression. I’m fighting with it with extra loads of coffee, black tea, manageable exercises, hit of piano keys — even dropped into sleep on the keys.
I prayer this stupid covid would not have made some kind of sleeping bugs in my body, whose energy level my Ego was so proud of — during my trip in COO upon meeting over 50-60 men and women (including a couple of much younger ones), I “beaten” all of them in energy level, endurance, walking speed, physical lightness and agility, clear mind, relaxed or high spirit. Now, I feel like a sluggish, fat pig — extra sleeps and sugar craving/intake made me gain 5 lbs while sick with only one light meal a day!😡
Even so, I forced myself to drowsily ramble here a little bit, verbal rambling (has to be meaningful to me first) always raised my spirit or energy level even if I was heartedly complaining about my depression or despair. Never underestimate the therapeutic effects of physical writing/typing!
For your weekend farewell party, it’s perhaps wise to weight all factors before deciding what to do. I’m just very glad that you’ve spoken with him over ☎️ as a FF.
Mila,
If you are having Covid, then I think canceling the dinner party is wise for everyone, because even if you’re testing negative by Saturday, (could stay position for up to 99 days, one report says), your family members might carry incubating virus that could pass to your FF and his family.
No doctor knows how Covid affects each individual body in a long run…
I can imagine how you feel and look like now… Poor me had to tutor Romeo online and in person in last two weeks and a young, cute gay couple (my new pupils). Light working helps recovery, even with foggy head.
Hi Snow,
I think you have to give yourself and your body some time. It sounds that your journey was fulfilling but also exhausting, not to mention jet lag. no wonder you got ill , and your body not only recovers from COVID but also from this journey with all physical and mental challenges.
I know people who took a few weeks of tiredness and sluggishness but now they are their full self again, and so will you💪🏻
And hopefully me. I’m feeling a bit better at the moment.
Thanks, I think all your observations are right.
About the dinner, we’ll just see. Everyone of my family will make a test before, and if there’s any hint of a doubt we’ll just cancel it. LO’s health is not very stable , I don’t want to be responsible for any complications.
I could forgive my wife much easier for an emotional affair than a sexual one, even if it was only one time. Emotional affairs are easier to fall into and before you know it you’re in deeper than that kid’s horse in Neverending Story. A physical affair is a cold and calculated decision. And no alcohol is not an excuse.
Adam,
“Emotional affairs are easier to fall into and before you know it you’re in deeper than that kid’s horse in Neverending Story.”
I was talking about a physical affair that doesn’t get emotional. I’d prefer that. Than an SO be obsessed with someone else for years on end.
I agree with IMHO, I think it is very much a timing thing. Also, I think there are just some people that glimmer for you. Can’t necessarily be explained.
I do agree with Dr L and the unpredictable reward. It feels so good! This is why LC is so important with LO. It makes my day routine and predictable and ultimately manageable.
Posted this on wrong spot…oops
Mila,
“He’s as good a friend as he can be I guess, and it hasn’t bothered me much when I wasn’t limerent.”
Sometimes it can help to look at what you’d like to get from someone and what what they’re actually giving you.
“If there are, I can still spread them, even if my symptoms went down.”
Is this a dinner with your husband and kids and your LO’s wife and kids?
Exactly, a dinner for all of us since while LO and I are the core of this, the families are friends also , the kids played with each other when they were small etc.
“ Sometimes it can help to look at what you’d like to get from someone and what what they’re actually giving you.”
That’s right, and that’s the source of my anger waves, but the thing is, I also have to look at why I’d like to get that. It’s still limerence hanging around. I tried to describe his personality type to Lim-a-rant, if you have the time to read my overlong post, and there’s only so much you can get out to his guy, who is nonetheless a very sweet and faithful friend.
Mila,
“Exactly, a dinner for all of us since while LO and I are the core of this, the families are friends also , the kids played with each other when they were small etc.”
Oh. This is becoming less interesting the more I hear about it. 🙂 (I’m kidding.)
” I tried to describe his personality type to Lim-a-rant, if you have the time to read my overlong post, and there’s only so much you can get out to his guy, who is nonetheless a very sweet and faithful friend.”
Ok. I read it. The next things to figure out (as I’m sure you’ve contemplated yourself) are: What can you do to tamp down the limerence to get back to the basic friendship? I have no experience with that. I guess I’m the kind of person who differentiates between friendship and limerence. A friend was, well, a friend, who I was close to and could really talk to (if I couldn’t really talk to them and we didn’t share our “stuff” with each other, I didn’t feel close to them). And an LO was someone I was romantically/sexually interested in. I’ve never become limerent for a friend and I’ve never wanted to become friends with an LO if a romantic situation wasn’t going to happen. I couldn’t do it (I’d still want more), and a friendship felt like some kind of consolation prize.
Second, why did you become limerent for him after (years?) of friendship? Thirdly, is there something about his withholding nature that has triggered you? (This I know a lot about! 🙂 ) You’re trying to get at him, to close the distance. Is it driving you a little crazy? But, ultimately, due to how you’ve described him, I don’t think he has that much to offer you. I don’t mean that he’s a horrible person but that he sounds fairly limited emotionally. Is it the chase that’s got you hooked or the person you’re chasing? (I could be way off on all of this.)
Hi Marcia,
you‘re spot on with 1,2,3.
I can answer 2, it happened when he decided to apply for another job far away and got it, but didn’t decide for a long time if he would finally take it- at the same time I was at the tail end of another LE and seem to have jumped ship. Fear of losing my reliable friend who was my very best work colleague, and my limerent mind looking for another object did the trick, I guess.
And there’s some truth in 3 too- all these little signs that he likes me more than usual, but never getting active, it drove me crazy for sure.
The thing is, I like the person very much in a normal way, but limerence is like a parallel reality, my real fondness for him and my neutral view of his good and bad sides is overlayered by limerence.
I think this LE proves that limerence is something we train on ourselves after a while of glimmer etc, it’s a habit of getting validation and excitement and feeling alive there, and if you wandered these mental paths often enough, it’s ingrained.
For the first time on this LE I can really watch it in myself- I KNOW that he‘s not that attractive, I know that he is not what I really want or need, but I trained this sort of longing and this fixation on myself, it’s very hard to get out of.
Thanks for asking these questions, it’s interesting to answer them.
Mila,
“I think this LE proves that limerence is something we train on ourselves after a while of glimmer etc, it’s a habit of getting validation and excitement and feeling alive there, and if you wandered these mental paths often enough, it’s ingrained.”
I think it’s something you can unlearn. You can retrain those neural pathways. If you’re aware of limerence and your pattern for becoming limerent, what kinds of people trigger you, why you’re triggered (what’s going on in your life to trigger it). (The general “you”)
I think the pain of limerence outweighs the highs. Eventually. Every time. I also hope that my type has changed. I think Adam called someone’s LO a “married player.” That was my LO. I’m hoping that doesn’t trigger me anymore.
And then the older you get … it’s hard to imagine meeting anyone again who you’re jonesing for like that again.
Hi Marcia,
exactly, and I think that this time I stand a real chance because I know much more about my triggers and patterns. There were already two men glimmering for me with the toxic promise of a new LO -they only glimmer with a bit of reciprocation, but both were married and cautious types, so fortunately they didn’t make move, and I didn’t either and managed to put them out of my mind after a few days. Otherwise I would have transferred again.
I have to be vigilant, but I‘m not half as helpless as I was before, I know know that it’s all treacherous, and, as you say, the pain outweighs all the highs in the end.
Now I have to ask, what is „jonesing“!
Mila,
“both were married and cautious types”
That’s your type. 🙂
“Now I have to ask, what is „jonesing“!”
Why am I schooling you? You’re younger than I am! 🙂
Jonesing is really desiring or craving something, almost like a chemical dependency. Like it is with an LO … you just want to get up on ’em and smell ’em ! 🙂
Marcia,
You are schooling me because I‘m a dumb foreigner:)
Hmm , my first LO was married but not cautious (not a player either though), my second single but cautious, only this one is married and cautious. I get better, don’t you think? Less risk. 🙄
No, I really want to be done with this crap.
Mila,
” I get better, don’t you think? Less risk. 🙄”
Were you married during all of your LEs? Do most limerents (single or married) want something to happen with their LOs?
I think limerence is more about wanting than having. Which makes the pain and torture of limerence seem even more bizarre. Pain over what? Nothing much seems to happen.
Hi Marcia,
I was married during the 3 LEs I count, but I think I was limerent for my SO too, it just did work out in that case:)
That’s the stupid thing, you want something to happen and at the same time you don’t want it. That’s why it’s dangerous with single or not-cautious LOs, they could barge into this yes-no-balance and wreak havoc. Unfortunately one doesn’t choose LOs.
@Marcia
“I guess I’m the kind of person who differentiates between friendship and limerence. A friend was, well, a friend, who I was close to and could really talk to (if I couldn’t really talk to them and we didn’t share our “stuff” with each other, I didn’t feel close to them). And an LO was someone I was romantically/sexually interested in.”
I picked that up in various of your posts. I wrote a huge reply to this point and then LWL crashed as I tried to post it. I’ll try again…
For some, like me, the first form of connection is a pre-requisite for and morphs into the second form. It is like I have never in life decoupled the emotional and sexual attraction. I need the emotional side to move from superficial ‘she’s hot’ type sexual attraction to the kind I’d bother to try and act on.
This is how I have come to get limerent for a long term friend. I am not saying there wasn’t a small initial glimmer, but it fizzled out until she really invested in me emotionally. Then one day a switch flipped (i know when, where but not why then), big second glimmer and I had both the emotional and romantic/sexual attraction at once, and neither has ramped down a bit in many moons since.
It sounds like your glimmers are more spectacular initially. My LO, I suspect, separates out friends and romantic prospects in a similar way to you. Neither is right or wrong, just different. I think more limerents on here follow my pattern from what I read.
And you’d be right that the easiest way to find out is to *do* something to find out. But I have an SO, am not free to act to find out with LO, and don’t want to. It would be an immoral and purely self-serving move to do that.
The shame of it is that the friendship side was and is real. We have laughs together, and we solve serious problems together. She has helped me through very difficult stuff, expecting little in return, understanding that I have an SO and never wanting to mess with that. This was all true before she was an LO for me. If only I could have just seen her increasing emotional investment in me as a sign of friendship, life could have been much simpler.
We worked well as pure friends but now I have the limerent gremlin on my shoulder, I can’t flip the switch back. The actions I know I need to take to solve the limerence without disclosure would, I think, not leave much of the friendship intact. This pretty much sucks and hurts, but maybe it’s just the way it is.
Mila,
“That’s the stupid thing, you want something to happen and at the same time you don’t want it.”
If I were a betting person, I’d say that most married limerents don’t want something to happen. Not deep down. They wouldn’t go through with it, if given the chance. They prefer it stay a fantasy.
“That’s why it’s dangerous with single or not-cautious LOs, they could barge into this yes-no-balance and wreak havoc. ”
Guilty as charged! 🙂 But there was never any real danger with my LO. And that’s what drives you even madder when you figure that out. I got all riled up for this? I’m not saying that affairs don’t happen as a result of limerence. But I think the percentage is low, at least based on this site.
Lim-a-rant,
” I need the emotional side to move from superficial ‘she’s hot’ type sexual attraction to the kind I’d bother to try and act on.”
I am moved strongly by an LO. It’s much, much more than just “he’s hot.” Limerence completely shakes up my world. I want some big, huge thing to happen with me and an LO. I want reciprocation. But I can’t say as though I feel emotionally close to someone I don’t know well. And I think the limerence prevents emotional closeness. I can’t see the LO for who he is and I can’t be myself around him. That sounds like it would be bad, but it can be very seductive. You feel out of control when you can’t be yourself.
“It sounds like your glimmers are more spectacular initially.”
Yes. Actually getting to know the LO, as a person, seeing who they really are, lessens the limerence. Or the maybe the hormones die down over time.
” I think more limerents on here follow my pattern from what I read.”
Are most of the posters on here demisexual? (And, no, Mila, I won’t define that for you. :)) Were you friends with your SO before you became really attracted (more than just “she’s hot”)?
” If only I could have just seen her increasing emotional investment in me as a sign of friendship, life could have been much simpler.”
I think women can be close, platonic friends with a man; I don’t think that’s as easy for men with female friends.
@Marcia
“Are most of the posters on here demisexual? (And, no, Mila, I won’t define that for you. :))”
Mila, don’t worry, I had to Google this word 😂 Marcia I don’t know about that, but more herr seem to talk about the emotional pull of their LOs and the sexual pull as usually secondary or sometimes same strength at same time – correct me if you think I’m wrong.
“Were you friends with your SO before you became really attracted (more than just “she’s hot”)?”
You got me here! The answer is no, not really (maybe I am not completely demisexual after all!) My beginnings with SO were quite a rare event in my life. Instant glimmer, I was free to act, did something about it quickly and both the emotional
and romantic connections happened in parallel. It was never limerence in the same way because it was reciprocal and acted on fast, so neither of us was stuck in the uncertainty loops.
Yes also to your point about men finding platonic friendship harder to maintain. Has happened with some women in my lifetime, but rarely when there is a hint of glimmer.
Lim-a-rant,
“I don’t know about that, but more herr seem to talk about the emotional pull of their LOs and the sexual pull as usually secondary or sometimes same strength at same time – correct me if you think I’m wrong.”
I think you are right, but most of the posters on here are married so they probably aren’t cruising in the same way a single person would be. Maybe the limerence sneaks up on them.
Also … is thinking of the limerence as more emotional than sexual … a form of denial? To feel like it’s a lesser form of cheating? (I’m not sure how else to say that.)
It’s odd to me because I’d much rather, if I had an SO, he go out and have a one-nighter with a random woman he didn’t care about than become limerent for someone else and not act on it. But that’s me. If I was forced to pick one. I guess because I think of men as being more capable of having meaningless sex.
@Mila: I figured your LO was neurodivergent. Don’t worry–They may not act in the “typical” ways people expect, but there can be a huge depth of feeling inside for their loved ones/friends. They just have different ways of expressing it. If he tells you you’re important to him, you can probably believe it. Part of it is having different social needs or not understanding what other people want from you. I can say as a neurodivergent that sometimes even when you try to do what people want, you get it wrong, and may end up waiting for them to do everything. Doesn’t mean you don’t care or want to see them/hear from them! I’m not saying he’s “in love” with you (I wouldn’t know), but he will probably remember you as a special person in his life.
@Marcia I suppose for a married limerent, they can fantasize and fantasize, but if the LO actually reciprocates, it’s like the dog who caught the car–Now what do you do?
Serial Limerent,
“Now what do you do?”
I guess the limerent would have to decide. Like being at a crossroads ? I think a lot of limerents don’t want to decide. It’s true of single or married limerents.
@serial limerent
That’s a beautiful description about neurodivergence and its effects – thanks for sharing
I also like the expression “dog who caught the car”!
Marcia,
“I think a lot of limerents don’t want to decide. It’s true of single or married limerents”
I totally get this (and accept in my case) for married limerents, but why do you think would it be like that for singles? Unless there were barriers like a workplace power imbalance. I’d say to any single limerent reading this that acting to find out must be preferable. Even though rejection is painful, limerence is more drawn out pain.
“Is thinking of the limerence as more emotional than sexual … a form of denial? To feel like it’s a lesser form of cheating?”
I appreciate the perspective you bring and the necessary awkward questions you ask. But I would flip that one round. And I think my feeling is similar to Adam’s response (scroll down a bit). If I looked at it as purely the (real) sexual attraction to my LO, I am left with a true story about my LE that “I am sexually attracted to this person but have never done anything physical about it”. Not Guilty verdict. That’s easier to rationalise than the quagmire of emotional attraction that can turn into an EA by acting on it in the grey zones where thought become action. Deep down I *know* I am morally at odds with myself on that emotional side. No story I can tell can make that feeling disappear. Guilty verdict.
I believe an EA is probably as bad as PA.
Lim-a-rant,
“I totally get this (and accept in my case) for married limerents, but why do you think would it be like that for singles?”
To stay in the fantasy. They pretty much already know the answer but there’s knowing and there’s confirming.
” But I would flip that one round. And I think my feeling is similar to Adam’s response (scroll down a bit). If I looked at it as purely the (real) sexual attraction to my LO, I am left with a true story about my LE that “I am sexually attracted to this person but have never done anything physical about it”. Not Guilty verdict. That’s easier to rationalise than the quagmire of emotional attraction that can turn into an EA by acting on it in the grey zones where thought become action. Deep down I *know* I am morally at odds with myself on that emotional side. No story I can tell can make that feeling disappear. Guilty verdict.”
I’m not entirely sure what you are saying.
There was an article written by a male writer for the British edition of GQ that I remember reading, and it’s about him getting to the pearly gates and being asked by Saint Peter who was the big one, who hung the moon for him. And he was thinking back to the women he’d been with. He’d had a decent amount of casual sex. He wrote that some of it was about as memorable as a take-out pizza. So if I have to pick between an SO having a take-out pizza or becoming obsessed with another woman who takes on a mythic, goddess-like status in his mind for possibly years. I most definitely would choose the former. I can compete with a take-out pizza. 🙂
Marcia,
I do get your point on the take out pizza etc. You are expressing how many SOs would see it. It isn’t true of my SO (everyone is different) but I get that it would be for many/most.
What was I trying to say? I was trying to express from the *limerent* POV, that;
1. if we see limerence as mainly a sexual thing, the limerent can reason out that they have done nothing wrong if (like me) they have never made a physical move on their LO
2. if we see limerence as mainly an emotional thing, limerents kind of know they are wrong for moving towards or into an EA, as I do.
This was in response to you asking me if I thought regarding limerence as mainly emotional made for a ‘form of denial … a lesser form of cheating’. In my case no it doesn’t do that, for the reason above. If I took a more purely sexual perspective on it, i could get myself out of jail in my head easier (done nothing sexually – so haven’t cheated) than I can in reality with me seeing limerence as emotional (I have attached too hard emotionally to LO so I do feel I have cheated to an extent on that level). Dismissing it as ‘haven’t had or tried to initiate sex, don’t intend to, so done nothing wrong’ would be tons easier, but I can’t do that.
Hope I have put it clearer that time. We might be trying to make slightly different points.
(Please help us Sammy, as you know Marcia well and have the ability to analyse this out and know what both of us are trying to say)
@Lim-a-rant.
“(Please help us Sammy, as you know Marcia well and have the ability to analyse this out and know what both of us are trying to say)”
I make a point of never publicly disagreeing with anything Marcia says (unless she’s saying something outrageous, which is impossible). I’m just here for the free garlic bread. 😁
I can only talk about my own experience of limerence. Limerence did make me feel really bad. But the bad feeling wasn’t exactly guilt and it wasn’t exactly shame. I’m not sure if there is a word to capture the bad feeling.
I think I felt bad about the strength of my feeling, and I also felt bad that I couldn’t turn my feeling off at will. So intensity and lack of control were both sources of … potential embarrassment maybe? (Actually, I didn’t realise how intense I was being most of the time).
Dr David Perl, a doctor who helps people with limerence, says the symptoms of limerence are often pretty obvious (to the limerent) e.g. racing pulse, sweaty palms, butterflies, but most of the attraction seems to exist in the limerent’s subconscious mind. I would agree with this. The infatuation is like a seed lodged in the limerent’s brain, but it’s a seed that can still cause discomfit.
It’s only after my LE ended that I realised how horrifyingly sexual the whole thing was, but it was sexual in the way that a sexual dream is sexual. In hindsight, I was having an involuntary, twenty-five-year-long erotic fantasy about another person – a fellow male, an almost unnaturally beautiful teenage boy when it started – and I had no idea I was doing it, because most of my fantasises stayed PG-rated.
I didn’t want to rescue my LO, but my desire for LO was palpable at every turn. I wanted his attention. I wanted his approval. The limerence was driven by both sentiment AND lust. Overwhelmingly, I wanted to be SPECIAL to my LO. I wanted my LO to recognise me as the most important person in his life, as ridiculous as that sounds. Although we were the same age, I saw him as the more senior person in the bond – the one with the authority and the confidence, etc.
I didn’t have an SO, so I never felt like I was cheating. But I felt frustrated with myself, by my inability to be genuinely happy while lovesick. I felt high. I felt confused. I felt like I was always running away from something. It’s like I had a “soul tie” to this person, and I couldn’t move on. This person somehow OWNED me, although I didn’t own him, and he possessed my every waking thought. Sometimes, he was an angel; sometimes, he was an evil spirit.
The worst part of limerence for me was that people could sometimes see signs of my limerence, and assumed I was sexually attracted to them, when this wasn’t the case. My limerence was purely a reaction to LO, and until I made that connection, I had no valid response to the never-ending awkward misunderstandings. (How could I prove I’m not attracted to random person XYZ if my body is in a permanent state of physiological arousal that refuses to shut off even when I’m around people I’m not attracted to?)
I’d agree with Lucy Bain’s idea that I could never be a true friend to my LO, because of how much I desired him. Eventually, my desire would make him uneasy and drive him away. He, however, could maybe be a true friend to me (assuming he didn’t desire me at all and I was just misreading signals because I’m a bit of a lunatic?)
Doctor David Perl says that our LO is often our “idealised parent in disguise”. I was looking at a picture of my XLO recently, and I realised I was looking at my mother’s beautiful, beautiful face. (My XLO was more beautiful than my mother, unfortunately). I think limerence for me was an attempt to win my narcissistic mother’s love, but with a slightly less challenging narcissist maybe? 🤣
I think my LO did enjoy attention from me. I can recall occasions he did flirt with me on purpose, even if that just means twinkling his eyes. He may have been attracted to both men and women, but that’s no use to me if he opted (which he did) for monogamy with a woman. It seems like I’m just the unlucky person who had to find out he likes both men and women by becoming infatuated with him. (Why me? Couldn’t he share his secret with somebody less vulnerable? I mean, I don’t think his tastes are any of my business if he doesn’t want to date me. I mean, who cares?)
But there’s no hard feelings anymore. And no desire for friendship either. (Good grief. What would we even talk about? “Do you remember back in the day when you used to pretend to be in love with me for attention/validation? Yeah, that was funny, dude. So funny!”) Now I feel: “Wow! Did I really just live through that? Wow!”
I think limerence is so powerful that most people assume that they MUST pair-bond with the person who inspires those feelings. I can understand the rationale behind that. But my LO was never someone I could actually introduce to my family as a romantic partner, (only enough room for one beautiful narcissist in my family!), so I never made the assumption that we must date. If I had pushed the friendship agenda hard after a certain point, where he was naturally pulling away anyway, I would have become even more miserable than I already was, and I was pretty darn miserable. 😉
Lim-a-rant,
” Dismissing it as ‘haven’t had or tried to initiate sex, don’t intend to, so done nothing wrong’ would be tons easier, but I can’t do that.”
I see what you are saying now. I think what you typed above is the attitude that most limerents have. I haven’t touched the person, haven’t tried to, so I’m in the clear. The fact that I am looking for their car in the parking lot, planting myself in places to see them, trying to initiate contact, trying to get their cell phone number, starting a text conversation, suggesting we meet up for lunch, flirting heavily with them in person or over text (I’m just using examples here) … I’ve not crossed any lines. Which I don’t agree with. What’s happened here is a pursuit of the LO the limerent knows they have strong feelings for.
Now, your situation is different in that you were already friends, right? What kind of friendship did you have? Were you texting and hanging out one-on-one? Sharing things with each other of a personal nature? Leaning on each other for support? I could easily see that kind of close friendship sliding off into an EA.
Sammy,
“I make a point of never publicly disagreeing with anything Marcia says”
Damn straight. 🙂
But, really, correct me or shut me up if necessary. Sometimes I get too stuck in my head.
” (unless she’s saying something outrageous, which is impossible).”
I could if you wanted me to. 🙂
” I’m just here for the free garlic bread. 😁”
This ain’t Olive Garden. 🙂 Would you like a brownie? I made brownies last night. And my cooking is everything you’d imagine it to be. 🙂
” So intensity and lack of control were both sources of … potential embarrassment maybe? ”
Really? I looked for those feelings (without realizing it). I wanted intensity and I wanted to feel out of control. So much of life is beige paint and being in control.
“I had no idea I was doing it, because most of my fantasises stayed PG-rated.”
Mine were R-Rated. I had planned out stuff I wanted to do if given the chance. 🙂
“I didn’t want to rescue my LO”
I wanted to rescue him on some level. I projected all this crap onto him that I thought he needed (who knows if he did). I also wanted him to rescue me. Geez, that sounds sad.
” I wanted his attention. I wanted his approval. The limerence was driven by both sentiment AND lust. Overwhelmingly, I wanted to be SPECIAL to my LO. I wanted my LO to recognise me as the most important person in his life, as ridiculous as that sounds.”
Totally agree with this. Yes.
“The worst part of limerence for me was that people could sometimes see signs of my limerence, and assumed I was sexually attracted to them, when this wasn’t the case. My limerence was purely a reaction to LO”
I’m not following you here. I think with me, it was pretty obvious I was into my LO. If he was around, there was no point in any other guy talking to me.
“I’d agree with Lucy Bain’s idea that I could never be a true friend to my LO, because of how much I desired him.”
Yes, I agree, too. This idea of trying to be friends with an LO … I don’t think it’s possible.
“Doctor David Perl says that our LO is often our “idealised parent in disguise”. ”
I have thought of that, too. Not so much an idealized parent but an LO very much like a parent. With the worst qualities of said parent, and the same weird dynamic you had with them. In my personal experience, any LO I had was a horrible choice for a romantic partner. It may have been different if I’d had better parents.
“But there’s no hard feelings anymore. And no desire for friendship either. (Good grief. What would we even talk about?”
Could not agree more. I have no interest in friendship with any of my former LOs. I also think the limerence was very much of a specific time and place, when I met them in my life, who I was at the time, who they were. And I don’t think I can go back. I don’t mean physically go back to see a former LO. But go back to that time and place and who I was and who they were.
Dammit Marcia you’re good!
As you put it in the first paragraph is accurate (not the more niche stuff like looking for her car, and it is all perfectly reciprocal, but yes seeking out, finding pretenses to etc – guilty)
“What kind of friendship did you have before? Were you texting and hanging out one-on-one? Sharing things with each other of a personal nature? Leaning on each other for support? I could easily see that kind of close friendship sliding off into an EA.”
There is only so much I want to give here for fear of being too obvious (especially in this thread where there is a lot already). But the short answer to your questions is yes, all those things happened before. And yes (though you didn’t ask) the amount of all of it has ramped steadily up since it became LE, though to a plateau and now a bit of a fall as there is a little pulling back on both sides. I have looked at how EAs are described on here and in other places. I haven’t done all of it but am bang to rights on some of it. I am not here claiming to be right about things I have done, though it would have been a lot worse if it wasn’t for all the support and sense I’ve got here. I am trying to pull back without totally losing LOs friendship, but we will see how it pans out.
I have been following this whole discussion train. Very interesting.
For me there is something very mysterious about my whole LE and my feelings for LO. I am recently asking myself why her? Why did I fall so deeply for her? What is keeping me hooked? My LO is a bit self absorbed, definitely aloof, and generally indifferent to me. In my practice of LC with her we have no discernable friendship. She does not seek me out in any real way. Yet I still long for her attention and reciprocation of feelings. Is it purely sexual or perhaps it’s the just the chase I am hooked to?
On the other hand I am good friends with a woman who is objectively more attractive than LO. She would be considered ‘hot’ by most hetero men. This woman pays me attention, show interest in my life, shares things about her life. Initiates with me. We have a personal friendship and casually text each other a bit each week. I am much closer to this woman than LO yet I get no vibe of attraction with her, and feel no exhilaration when interacting with her like I do with LO. I like and value the relationship but I feel platonic about it.
It’s very weird because when I am interacting with with LO I am mired in feelings of mutual attraction and chemistry and closeness and comfortness with one another even though there is no real relationship there. It’s just a feeling that hits different that I cannot define. I am sure it is truly the altered state of mind that distorts everything.
My desire for LO is very romantic and sexual but at the same time I do desire the emotional reciprocation more so than any sexual reciprocation. Put plainly, I just want LO to feel for me what I feel for her and I feel not at peace until she does. Such seems to be the backbone of limerence.
Lim-a-rant,
So, I have to ask a question that may seem trite and hopelessly dated … but can’t you get similar support you get from your LO from your SO? Not that your entire emotional life has to be wound up in your SO … but an SO should be providing some of that, no?
Marcia,
I have always sought a wide network in my life and never been one where everything is bound up with an SO. But you are correct – yes, that emotional stuff should come mainly from an SO.
There was drift in that at the time (partly but not all my fault), and I let LO plug gaps instead of properly addressing the gaps with SO (was meeting resistance to addressing them). SO and I have progressed a lot since but I need to push LO further to the margins. There are certain aspects LO can give that SO can’t (people are different) but it needs boundaries for sure.
I should also say that SO knows of LO’s presence in my life (they have met a fair few times) and knows and accepts some of what I lean on LO for in the friend sense. Obviously not the attraction or limerence part and again I am not
claiming moral rightness over that – I haven’t been transparent with SO about it, but as much as I can short of disclosure.
@Speedwagon
This is a totally fascinating question you raise!
I have no answer but am looking forward to seeing what the people who know the brain science better come up with as answers. I also ask this question of myself (why this LO?) often
Lim-a-rant,
I’d like to think men and women can be close friends. I’m just not sure it’s possible. I know that sounds retrograde. I’d be leery of dating a guy with close female friends because there’s no way I wouldn’t wonder if he was into them. And even if I asked, would he tell me the truth? Of course, there are exceptions. I was reading a letter to an advice columnist from a woman whose close guy friend’s new girlfriends was jealous of her. But she was close with his family, he was close with hers. She would go to his family’s holiday celebrations, even if he wasn’t there. She was almost like a cousin.
Speedwagon,
“My desire for LO is very romantic and sexual but at the same time I do desire the emotional reciprocation more so than any sexual reciprocation. Put plainly, I just want LO to feel for me what I feel for her and I feel not at peace until she does.”
I felt the same way. I wanted him to feel the same was as I did, but I wanted the sexual reciprocation as well. Just finding out that he shared the same feelings would not have been enough. Maybe actually worse if he didn’t intend to follow through.
“Just finding out that he shared the same feelings would not have been enough.”
I ask myself this question all the time. When you just want something you tell yourself it would be enough but I suspect that feeling would wear off soon and I would want the sexual reciprocation too. But I’m married too and I think you are right when you said somewhere above that most good married men would not go through with it. I like to think I would not so no matter what it’s a losing situation that only leads to more turmoil.
Speedwagon,
“But I’m married too and I think you are right when you said somewhere above that most good married men would not go through with it”
There’s another issue that’s never discussed because this blog is mostly aimed at married limerents … but IMO married men should leave single women alone. Leave them alone so their energy and time aren’t wasted on dead-end situations. (I’m of course not implying single women don’t have any responsibility in this.)
Speedwagon, Dr L has some great insight as to why your LO affects you differently than your healthy relationship with your female friend. He talked about it in his podcast. Go to minute 35:40 and listen when he says, “There are predictable ways that these [brain] circuits can be driven into overdrive…”
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-longing-lab/id1606581375?i=1000662842057
I hope this link works.
Around minute 38:00 he talks about expected and unexpected rewards. I think this is where you get hooked. It explains why you thrive on predictable behavior patterns.
Good luck!
Hi Speedwagon,
If you had happen to have met your more recent female coworker before your LO, then maybe you would have been limerent for her instead. It may be more the time and place of our situation that makes us vulnerable to limerence and not the actual individual.
And whilst you are still stuck on LO (due to all the long time brain ingrained patterns, as Lovisa points to DrLs explanation) you are not interested in your new friend in the same way at all.
You cannot have two LOs at the same time and it seems you are also very self-aware with no wish to transfer to your new female friend.
I also think there is just some unexplained ‘thing’ of chemistry you either have or don’t regardless of logic, related to raw pheromone compatibility.
I agree with IMHO, I think it is very much a timing thing. Also, I think there are just some people that glimmer for you. Can’t necessarily be explained.
I do agree with Dr L and the unpredictable reward. It feels so good! This is why LC is so important with LO. It makes my day routine and predictable and ultimately manageable.
@Marcia.
Such amazing answers! You didn’t need to answer, since you weren’t the one asking questions, but you did. 🙂
“This ain’t Olive Garden. 🙂 Would you like a brownie? I made brownies last night. ”
I’ll take a brownie, please. Are they **cough, cough** special brownies? No, sorry, don’t answer that – inappropriate question. 😉
Actually, that was my secret motivation for shoving Mila into the spotlight. I wanted to pinch a brownie from the communal brownie jar while “Mummy” was distracted. (Sorry, Mila. Don’t know why I turn every even slightly older woman into “Mummy”. I must have a Madonna-Madonna Complex, as opposed to a Madonna-Courtesan Complex). 🤣
“And my cooking is everything you’d imagine it to be. 🙂”
That statement is a double-edged sword. Either you’re very, very good or you’re … the opposite of very, very good. 😇
“Really? I looked for those feelings (without realizing it). I wanted intensity and I wanted to feel out of control. So much of life is beige paint and being in control.”
This may be where one’s own personality might heavily colour how one feels about one’s own limerence. I grew up valuing a pretty extreme level of self-discipline. So limerence felt like … the universe in one fell swoop had taken away everything I most valued about myself. I lost my own soul, basically. As Dr. L. observes: “the old certainties disappear”. 😉
“I’m not following you here. I think with me, it was pretty obvious I was into my LO. If he was around, there was no point in any other guy talking to me.”
Okay. This is something I want to explain because it’s one of the reasons limerence was so painful/embarrassing/troubling for me. Also, I think it might explain something about gay men versus straight people and gay women.
For me, limerence was like a switch being turned on inside me. Once that switch turned on, I couldn’t turn it off. I became like a lightbulb doomed to burn brightly forever. Other people could see the light from the bulb and comment on it.
So, I think, for gay men, limerence is a switch that gets turned on at maximum intensity shortly after the glimmer. The brain overfloods with pleasure chemicals. The pursuit of love (for one who doesn’t love back) becomes like a tragic destiny the gay man must live out, almost as a cultural script. And yet society condemns the gay man as immoral. The gay man is viewed as immoral NOT because he is engaging in immoral behaviour, (although most gay men DO engage in highly immoral behaviour on an extremely regular basis, let’s not kid ourselves), but because he can’t turn off his inner light bulb, and the light bulb burns too bright for conventional society. 🙂
I know from experience that straight men are often discomfited by the “light” coming from the gay man, because they don’t understand the source of the light. They don’t understand why the gay man’s brain in awash in pleasure chemicals, especially if there ain’t no chicks around. All these pleasure chemicals in the gay man’s brain appear to be constantly self-renewing and have a single historical trigger. The fact the feelings have a single historical trigger don’t prevent them from spilling over into the present.
Camilla Paglia says gay men’s brains are “always on”. She’s right. Gay men’s brains are “always on” because most gay men are stuck in incurable hopeless limerence, but don’t know how to shut down the chemical reaction in their own bodies. Camille Paglia, ironically, admires the way gay men’s brains work. She doesn’t understand that what makes gay men awesome also causes gay man almost immeasurable pain.
In other words, for twenty-five years, I’ve had a restless mind and I’ve had a body in a permanent state of physiological upheaval. (If you want to know what that’s like, it’s just the most unstable part of standard male puberty, except this unstable part of male puberty never ends. This is what limerence has been for me – being stuck in puberty for a quarter of a century. But after doing near-infinite research on the topic, I’ve decided this “puberty” has a definite trigger – LO,
I don’t know how else to explain it. I’ve had a non-stop party in my pants for twenty-five years. The literal physical “peaks and troughs” just never end. Things just won’t settle down in that department. It’s unnerving. It’s living in the body of a teenager while being old enough to have fathered and raised several teenagers. I’m excited even when there are no obvious triggers in the social environment. But, actually, there is a trigger – unresolved, unconscious feelings for LO which constantly bubble to the surface in a never-ending loop.
I think limerence becomes so overwhelming for gay men that it can start to take on an impersonal dimension – hence, the legendary promiscuity of gay men. I think gay men who are extremely promiscuous are trying to understand themselves and find a way out of their mental torment, and yet promiscuity isn’t the answer, because there is only one trigger for limerence, and that trigger is LO, or whatever LO stands for. All healing must begin and end with LO. The gay man must honestly reckon with his feelings for LO.
Where gay men differ most conspicuously from straight people and gay women is the gay man often unconsciously takes his infatuation with LO (i.e. one human being who happens to be male) and transfers it onto the ENTIRE MALE SEX. This is very draining. Straight people/gay women are better at confining their sexuality to relationships – even relationships society doesn’t approve of. 🙂
I think gay men are born with a heightened visual sense, like Paglia says. This is why gay men are “always cruising”. By “always cruising”, I mean the gay man has noticed every attractive person in the room much quicker than anyone else has.
I think gay men are born with a very strong predisposition toward addiction. I think gay men have ambivalent relationships with beautiful-but-narcissistic mothers who treat the boy like a prop and not like a real person. I think gay men have abnormally passive fathers, but don’t necessarily have bad relationships with said passive fathers. I think young gay men turn to fantasy because typically so many of their social and emotional needs go unmet.
CONCLUSION:
BECAUSE gay men have such powerful visual imaginations and BECAUSE gay men’s bodies are just dopamine factories waiting to explode, gay men may be extremely prone to limerence without realising it. All it takes is one inappropriate object choice made in early life and, bam, one is stuck on the limerent treadmill forever. Not addicted to a person. Addicted to a fantasy of a person. Camille Paglia would call this fantasy person “the beautiful boy of Greek antiquity”. It’s scary how often that lady gets things right! 🙂
@Sammy,
Been following this thread today. Thank you for the “gay” explanations. While I am not gay, your way of wording your limerence and emotions I find fascinating and so well thought-out.
Mum and Mummy are strange probably because I’m not British. But then non-Americans (and even some Americans) find it strange I call my wife Momma. She hates it when I call her Mother or Mommy. The later I do mostly when …..
I call my biological mother Ma.
Since our youngest son could talk he’s always has called me Adam. Never dad or daddy.
I would not be object being called daddy …. well Ive already shared too much.
Adam,
“But then non-Americans (and even some Americans) find it strange I call my wife Momma. ”
I would include myself in that list of Americans. It would make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up if a man I was romantically/sexually involved with called me “Momma.”
Now, “Lil Mama.” Sure. That’s a compliment. It means the women is fine.
Sammy,
“I wanted to pinch a brownie from the communal brownie jar while “Mummy” was distracted”
Before you get a brownie, who is Mummy in this scenario?
Me, Marcia, me.
It’s apt because at the moment I feel less a regular mummy, but like an old Egyptian dead person burdened by an ancient curse🙄
How do you all bear the endless scrolling?🙈
Mila,
“Me, Marcia, me.”
Ah, ok. I saw “Mummy” and “older woman,” and I thought it was me, and I was about to open a can of bust-a*s on Mr. Sammy because I have already told him to NEVER refer to me as the mother of the blog. 🙂
“It’s apt because at the moment I feel less a regular mummy, but like an old Egyptian dead person burdened by an ancient curse🙄”
How are you feeling?
“How do you all bear the endless scrolling?🙈”
It is annoying.
Sammy,
“I’ll take a brownie, please. Are they **cough, cough** special brownies? ”
I may have a contact who can hook that up … they are not “special” at the moment. 🙂
“That statement is a double-edged sword. Either you’re very, very good or you’re … the opposite of very, very good.”
Well, I can’t cook in the kitchen. 🙂 HA HA. Couldn’t help myself.
” I grew up valuing a pretty extreme level of self-discipline. ”
My family valued self-discipline. Which is why I did not. 🙂
“As Dr. L. observes: “the old certainties disappear”. 😉”
But didn’t that feel good? Busting out of the shackles!
“The pursuit of love (for one who doesn’t love back) becomes like a tragic destiny the gay man must live out, almost as a cultural script.”
I hope that’s not true. Although I am, of course, not a gay man and don’t live like you do in Australia, and my vantage point is only one of observer. I’m not negating your experience, just sharing mine, but I live in a fairly progressive city, work for a fairly progressive company, am a member of a very progressive church. I see a lot of openness and acceptance in the last 5 or 10 years. I hope there is less tragic destiny now.
“although most gay men DO engage in highly immoral behaviour on an extremely regular basis, let’s not kid ourselves”
I guess I don’t see it as immoral. There are things I don’t understand as a woman (i.e. cruising). But there are things that straight people do that I don’t understand, either.
“but because he can’t turn off his inner light bulb, and the light bulb burns too bright for conventional society.”
I’m not sure what you mean by inner light bulb, but I’d say larger-than-life personalities like a Truman Capote, for example, who were so talented and so charming and had so many natural gifts … yes, did burn brighter. He was always the most interesting and charming person in the room.
“Camilla Paglia says gay men’s brains are “always on”. She’s right. Gay men’s brains are “always on” because most gay men are stuck in incurable hopeless limerence, but don’t know how to shut down the chemical reaction in their own bodies.”
Are they? I don’t think most people, in general, are stuck in limerence.
“I don’t know how else to explain it. I’ve had a non-stop party in my pants for twenty-five years. ”
Isn’t this true of straight men as well? At least until they get to about age 40, when the hormones calm down?
“But, actually, there is a trigger – unresolved, unconscious feelings for LO which constantly bubble to the surface in a never-ending loop.”
But haven’t you resolved those? You’re not limerent anymore ?
“I think limerence becomes so overwhelming for gay men that it can start to take on an impersonal dimension – hence, the legendary promiscuity of gay men.”
I’m not following how promiscuity is related to limerence. If there are … less sexual brakes because women aren’t a factor (see my answer below), I would wonder if limerence was less a problem in that there were more opportunities. There’s less chance of getting fixated on one person.
” Straight people/gay women are better at confining their sexuality to relationships – even relationships society doesn’t approve of. 🙂”
I think women put the brakes on sex and relationships for men (and I’m talking in generalities here). I’m not sure how else to write that. Whereas if you have two men … less brakes. Less confining.
“I mean the gay man has noticed every attractive person in the room much quicker than anyone else has.”
I personally do that myself. I always cruise a room. And I might not remember anyone else’s name … except the hot guy’s name. 🙂
” I think gay men have ambivalent relationships with beautiful-but-narcissistic mothers who treat the boy like a prop and not like a real person. I think gay men have abnormally passive fathers, but don’t necessarily have bad relationships with said passive fathers.”
Idk. Tennessee Williams had a very aggressive and mean father. Big Daddy was modeled after him.
” I think young gay men turn to fantasy because typically so many of their social and emotional needs go unmet.”
That makes sense. I’d say, for people in general, that limerence is a coping strategy.
“BECAUSE gay men have such powerful visual imaginations and BECAUSE gay men’s bodies are just dopamine factories waiting to explode, gay men may be extremely prone to limerence without realising it. All it takes is one inappropriate object choice made in early life and, bam, one is stuck on the limerent treadmill forever. ”
There are so many factors that can cause limerence. One’s attachment style (an avoidant can be more prone). One’s personality style (if I remember correctly from the post that was on this site, INFPs and INFJs). One’s childhood (being neglected or abandoned). Where one is in life (middle age seems to be a big trigger). Perhaps one’s sexuality as well.
I think getting out of the limerence loop is possible, though.
Hi Marcia,
„ How are you feeling?“
Not so great. No fever, but my head still feels like jet-lag and severe sleep-deprivation, bed feels like the best place to be, but there’s so much pressing stuff to do.
Very annoying.
I canceled the goodbye dinner because one kid got it too now, but apparently there’s a chance to see each other still in town end of summer.
@Mila,
I think it’s a “lucky” sign that you do not have to host the anxiety loaded dinner party this weekend; the kid is “doing” you a big favor! I hope s/he and you recover completely soon.
My sleepiness gets better by my pushing for still laborious walking, tiring indoor workout, and genuinely-enthusiastic tutoring — just took a young, professional gay couple who are easy-going and fun; they bring out my laid-back side, as if I am pain-free — an effective distraction from my recurring LE pains.
All logistic paperwork for the Fall semester is set, but actual work load depends on HE enrollment that is decreasing recently across the country. I’m not so concerned.
Mila, you WILL have your “healthy” farewell with your FF before the end of summer, I’m certain. Now, just relax and gain back your clear mind and generous heart…
Mila,
“Not so great. No fever, but my head still feels like jet-lag and severe sleep-deprivation”
Sorry. Sounds like you got walloped with a bad case of it. I remember having bad symptoms for about a week and then it took another week for everything to clear up, though I felt better.
“I canceled the goodbye dinner because one kid got it too now,”
Hope your child is ok. Yeah, I think you have to cancel.
“but apparently there’s a chance to see each other still in town end of summer.”
Is that just with him or the whole kit and kaboodle? 🙂 Sorry. I had some of them brownies for breakfast. Makes my mind take a drive. 🙂 Honestly, if you don’t plan on saying anything to him directly, I don’t think you need to meet up alone. And, from what you’re written, I personally wouldn’t bring anything else up again. I don’t think you’ll get a different result by bringing it up again.
Mila, thank you so much for mentioning the link above “when things go sour” it was greatly helpful for me, since my LO vanished ghosted me and blocked me from all social media, from nowhere no apparent reason. It has been 10 months now, and it is dreadfully painful. The day that happened i had to work and I remember walking like I was stepping in clouds like if I had no floors to step on. The 3 first days could not sleep well, I was almost suicidal. Rejection is not fun. Why we blame ourselves if the other person was the one that caused us the pain? I felt a little better after reading the link specially because if I had a history of a neglectful and abuse in my childhood, I will be vulnerable for those limerence situations, when I was (unconsciously) desperately looking for love and acceptance that I never had as a child. I feel so stupid for letting the conversation, texting go that far. I should have cut from the beginnings but the dopamine effect in my brain would not let me see it, low self-steem also contributed for that. Thank you for your time reading all of this. I am so grateful for this blog.
Hi Heart Broken,
I‘m sorry you feel bad! It will pass, that’s for sure, and you will have learned a lot about yourself, but maybe that’s not a comfort right now. Another post that helped me:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-why-do-i-feel-betrayed/
Mila I hope will pass, I don’t know how long is going to take. But I did not loose my hope.
Nisor
I am an hour away from a church fellowship dinner that the church arranged just for men. Im gonna go but Im nervous. I went to service this morning and thats fine. I feel vulnerable in these situations. Because I dont like to share parts of me. But I remained determined to stay sober and go today. I could bring a guest and wish our oldest son didnt have to work tonight. I dunno why this is so hard for me.
I’m so proud of you, Adam!
I’d love to hear about it if you feel like sharing sometime.
It went well. The church rented out an entire room at a BBQ restaurant. We all ate and socialized. I talked to a few new brothers that I hadn’t met yet at service. Then after we ate one of the brothers told his testimonial about his journey to find God. Sounded like my (well hidden from my parents and church) sorted hedonistic younger years before I met my wife.
The service yesterday morning that the pastor preached spoke right to me. He talked about the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. He said that Jesus commanded us to love our enemies and forgive them even if we think they don’t deserve it. He said that just because we forgive someone something they wrong us with doesn’t mean we are reconciling or being a doormat.
He also said that while it easy for us to think about how much other people have wronged us. It’s much harder for us to think about the times that we have wronged others. I didn’t get to talk to the pastor after the sermon so I took the time after the meal to do so.
I told him my story of why I was compelled to come to church in the first place. I told him it all, minus limerence, I said emotional affair. I told him I knew my wife forgave me, because we are still together and still sleep in the same bed. But I told him that I think that even after two years she is still reconciling with me for what I did.
He told me that I all I can do is continue to show her I am sorry and make the effort that it doesn’t happen again. He said after that all you can do is give her the time she needs to come back together fully again. He is a really great pastor. I am glad I went. Maybe this will help it get easier for me to attend fellowship more often and be comfortable.
It’s a great account, Adam. Even as an agnostic myself, the second paragraph makes so much sense.
Well done for turning up!
Well done Adam.
A wise old Priest used to tell me to keep coming back. I’ve never forgotten that.
I’m sure you will do the same.
Adam,
I want to second what Frederico has said. You put it so well about ‘forgiving some even though we think they might not deserve it.’
There are those that might do us harm but holding on to ill will or a grudge no longer serves any is probably holding us back from going forward in our lives.
I just read an article about Mary Magdalene, who may have been Jesus’ closest disciple or a very close confidant.
Though one of the Popes of the early Catholic church decided to take her down a few notches and decided that she was a prostitute and a sinner.
The true history is always more interesting and exciting than the propaganda we’re routinely fed to keep us dumb and passive.
@Adam,
It looks like you have stumbled upon a treasure trove of gold ✨️ What a blessing to find such warm, kind people who love Jesus, and want to help you! I continue to wish you and your family many blessings through this journey.
Thanks all for reassuring words. I was still a bit nervous but I did want to go. The real accomplishment is I managed to stay sober all the way up until the dinner and then after it was over and I got home around 8pm. That’s a miracle.
Grego
I feel like this is my apprehension to get back into religion again after a 20 plus year absence. I have always found Christianity good in principle but not always in execution. A lot of things I found out about the religion I was raised is why I left as an adult.
Fear of being assimilated is why fellowship is so scary. Every sermon I have listened to at service, I took something from everyone of those sermons to try and incorporate it in my life to try and be a better husband and father.
But the other stuff, like trying to change my thinking on things that really should be left between a person and God. I think every aspect of a person’s life should not be micromanaged by the church to be considered a good Christian. But overall this church is small and people are close knit so I don’t have a huge fear of it. But it is still in the back of my mind.
“ The real accomplishment is I managed to stay sober all the way up until the dinner and then after it was over and I got home around 8pm.”
Woowoo! Nice work, Adam!
I get the fear of assimilation and wanting to think for yourself. I’ve been going through a lot of that over the past few decades, rethinking pretty much everything I was ever taught regarding religion. As for assimilation–I’ve adopted one of the alternative subcultures, so that helps. 🙂
That sounds wonderful Adam. I might try the same- try to go to church and try to understand the bible.
I feel as though I have suffered brain damage lately though. I was doing well in my studies- all Distinctions and High Distinctions. I was able to comprehend whatever I read. Now, I can’t focus- I am working 2 days a week. The two days my youngest goes to kindergarten. I can’t focus at work and I can’t focus at home. I honestly cant even park my car anymore, or even wash the dishes without dropping them.
LO is still talking to me, despite my embarrassing outburst. I have deleted all social media to stop myself, and I have found an area at school to avoid everyone entirely, it’s a good place because my son can play whilst I wait for my daughter. Unfortunately for me, I just can’t make friends with the opposite sex- I do better with females and I am happier with less people in my life. I only need a few friends, and I rarely need to see them.
I want to transfer the attention I was giving LO (in my mind) to my husband and to my children and hopefully to God.
Sounds like most people are just doing their best. Trying to do what they see as the right thing.
Creepy limerent, glad to hear your embarrassing incident wasn’t quite as crippling as you had built it up in your head to be! At least based on the fact that he is still talking to you.
It sounds like you are taking all the necessary steps to stay away from LO and obsessive thoughts – so good for you!!
@CreepyLimerent,
Are you ok? Do you need to see a doctor? Or are these symptoms withdrawals from your limerence?
I hope and pray you feel better soon!
💙
Hi Adam.
Nothing to be afraid of. You don’t have to share anything if you don’t want to. Just listen and watch other men interact . Just relax and have a pleasant smile.
I’m sorry I answered late, but I’m trying to stay away from LwL as much as possible. Will participate mainly on DL ‘s weekly blogs, only if I have something to comment that is worthwhile.
I’m trying to break all the chains that attach me to thinking about LO. It’s time for me to move on, and leave all this behind.
Wishing all a very pleasant and relaxed week.
Hi Nisor,
I saw your message and I understand your perspective. I think you put a lot of yourself here on LwL and helping others and cheering us all up every weekend and start of a week.
And I’m sure I speak for many that you are highly appreciated here on LwL.
You do need to look after yourself and it’s great that you feel you can ‘move on’ . I’m also a bit heading in that mode at the moment (because right now I’m stuck).
I often wrack my brain as to what I could say or suggest to help you. I have drafted at least 3 messages that I never posted.
I guess they were all in the theme of focussing in on another time in your past that was highly significant but not associated with your LO, to be a diversion tactic.
Thanks for making us smile and lifting us up. If we can lift you up in any way now or in the future, please come here and just ask us …..
(PS. no need to reply )
Dear Nisor,
No matter where you are or what you do, I wish you all the best in your recovery ✨️ Thank you for always being a kind person to us.
Dear Nisor,
I’ve been thinking about you and wondered where your mind has been.
I agree with you that it’s wise to step out of anything that would remind one LO/LE. I tasted its benefits while traveling in COO — too busy and engaged elsewhere to feel any need to say or even read anything here… I even asked a question here: “LE? What is LE? Did I ever have it?” ☺️ — It really felt like a series of dreams I had in the past…
I still come to this space to ramble limitedly, to verbally and thus mentally circulate my often stuck Qi and help battle with my depression caused by the residual LE and the idiot covid post effects.
Wish you all the best no matter where you are and what you do!
💗 and my perpetual gratitude to you, Nisor! 🫂
Nisor, the place won’t be the same without your inspirational words of wisdom. Thank you for always being kind and uplifting to my situation. Please do come back and see us when you can.
Oh Nisor,
just saw your post. I think you are doing the right thing💪🏻! Good luck, we‘ll miss you, but you have to do what‘s right for you!❤️
Hang in there, Adam!
I’ve been in several men’s groups over the years. Some were better than others.
It may become a safe space for you or it might not. See what happens.
Nobody likes to be vulnerable. Just keep in mind those other men there are bearing their own crosses too.
You’re not alone. You’re honesty will help others.
Kudos to you for making the effort.
It’s been 7 months since I’ve contacted LO but today he contacted me, sharing a photo he had taken of me years ago. It just broke me. I ended up sobbing in my car because I can’t escape this horrible pain of missing him and feelings of loss for someone who’s never been mine to miss or lose. I just want to not feel this way anymore.
Hi Lost Girl. I’m sorry that you feel not good after your LO shared a photo of you. From my experience, I have felt low on many occasions, mostly when I perceived that LO was ignoring me, or when I felt jealous of LO talking to other men (it’s weird right). What matters is that in all such cases I always ended up feeling better afterwards so just hang in there. I’m sure you will feel better.
Hi ABCD
I remember those feelings of jealousy very well. LO is a gregarious man and I use to feel jealous when his attention was on others. Since we no longer work together I feel jealous when I see him reacting to others social media posts. My attempt at no contact hasn’t helped that.
Him contacting me yesterday led me to break my 7 months of no contact today. I texted him and now I just crave further contact and attention.
Hi Lost Girl. Its interesting that you say this because during periods of NC, I felt pretty confident that I had a handle on LE, but post interactions, used to turn out I was still vulnerable to limerent thoughts. Having said that, with time I feel I am able to manage contact better than before. Just trying not to think about it too much. Hope that you can also manage better.
My heart goes out to you, Lost Girl. I transferred my limerence because it was unbearable with LO2. Now, I can chat with LO2 or not talk to him and I am indifferent.
Whatever happens, I hope you find a way to manage. Good job on the no contact!
Nothing really profound to add so will just post my own musings as other people’s posts help me, maybe this will resonate with someone.
I’m not over it. I got to a place where I realised we couldn’t be friends. Sad but true. I tried to withdraw (some minimal contact) and LO has since contacted me and we have spoken on the phone at least 3 times. This was since the horrible messages that I thought would mark the end of any contact. Communication is fine, friendly. Although the last time has left me feeling anxious and jealous as he spoke about a colleague that has been a jealous trigger for me for months. Almost confiding in me about how close they are and how careful he needs to be about people talking. I can’t handle that. I’m not the person for that and now it’s caused me a lot of pain and I’m struggling to sleep. Further confirmation that we can’t be friends. Problem is if he instigates contact I’m not really strong enough to say no because it’s still a craving for me. Trying out the technique of LO contact =bad instead of rewarding. Some parts are rewarding though I just felt like crap after for days. I’m still sticking to not instigating contact but for some reason even though I get a horrible emotional hangover, I still want more. Looking back, there was about 4 months of blissful ignorance at the height of LE and there has been a year of pain, guilt and confusion since with occasional high. Yet I still hold on to the high and almost ignore the pain.
My jealousy is currently fuelling the need for more contact and to be in LOs life, yet it’s also the thing that makes me feel most rubbish.
I’m struggling with refocusing the brain. I seem to get distracted if there is fast paced excitement but that’s short lived and as soon as it passes, I’m back to thinking about LE and LO. When I wake up, it’s there. It’s constantly there and only some things work to distract me, but they are short lived.
When I read that people have been NC for months, even years, yet still feel sad about it all, that is a bit discouraging.
It’s interesting to me that this is the first time I’ve had feelings for someone that hasn’t been able to go anywhere.
Also advice about recommitting to SO and investing these feelings in to SO is only successful as far as the SO is willing. Difficult when it feels one way and then this fuels the limerence more.
So signs I’m not over it- it still consumes me, I feel sad. I want it to end but I also want it to stay. What a burden.
Hi Whoomp,
don’t have to say much since my brain is so addled apart from I know where you are at, and I feel for you. It seems like an endless back and forth and nightmare, but it will change and you will find out of the labyrinth. I‘m also a bit discouraged by people still being limerent after years of NC, but I’m determined that that’s not going to happen for me. It’s more in our control than it might feel.
In my second LE I also had this crippling jealousy . It was the thing I hated most in this LE and at the same time the thing that fueled it most. please try to fight that, it’s absolutely useless, let me tell you.
Hello Whoomp. I agree 100% with what Mila mentioned in her response to you. The jealousy is the worst part of the LE, and so you must try to resist it. Recently, on some occasions I have been overcome with jealousy about LO. Really felt bad on those occasions.
I know that many times LE will feel very overpowering and overwhelming, but things will look up. With time, I have personally experienced that the highs and lows are more tapered now (still there, though!). This allows me to manage my LE in a better manner, as I have a better handle on it. You are so correct about limerence being bitter sweet, so true.
Wish you all the best Whoomp.
Whoomp
“My jealousy is currently fuelling the need for more contact and to be in LOs life, yet it’s also the thing that makes me feel most rubbish.”
When LO first started dating a young man, about a year and half after I met her, I felt very much the same. Not jealous of their relationship per say. As early on it was clear that LO really liked him and from when she would talk about him, it seemed he genuinely cared about her too. I was jealous of the amount of attention he took from me. Which like you said, made me feel worse. I am committed to someone else why do I care about this woman’s attention? It is a vicious cycle of seeking that high but it never being like the first time no matter how many times you try.
I don’t remember if your LO is in a committed relationship or not, but if not I would see this other person as a good thing if you genuinely care about him. Don’t get me wrong the jealous feeling for LO’s gentleman friend continued pretty much to the end. It wasn’t till literally at the last minute that I realized he was good for her and her daughter and that I should be happy for their happiness and cut out the selfish feelings of knowing she wouldn’t be around anymore.
Her last day was June 3rd. It was probably 90 to 100 degrees F outside. Towards the end of the day he came by to visit LO. Being it was summer months LO had her daughters with her. He visited for a bit and then left. I was sitting outside in the vestibule of the offices so I could see it all. About 20 minutes later he comes back and had brought them all snow cones. Anyone that talked to any three of those ladies for any length of time knows how much they like snow cones. I realized at that moment “damn I gotta like this guy.” Not necessarily because I have to like him as a person but I have to like him for what he does for them; taking in LO and two girls that aren’t his own daughters. That’s a good man.
Thanks all for coming back to me, especially when I know you all have your own stuff going on. Good day at work today which was distracting. @Adam no, LO has a SO. I wouldn’t be surprised of he was one of these people that posted on sites saying he has 2 or 3 female friends that are purely platonic and that males ans females can in fact be friends, not aware of the chaos he’s causing! Although he’s not really causing it I suppose. I think he likes the attention of these attractive women. I really want to just have some self respect and self worth now and bow out. Obviously I don’t like the idea that he has another person who he sees as a female bestie but I also need to grow up. Haha.
Yeah that sounds like a married “player”. He likes the attention of women and he will do whatever to get it. In the past I like to have thought that LO was just being friendly and not doing what she thought she could to get my attention and get me to do things. Nothing over the top like it seems your LO does with other women. Even if he were single I wouldn’t have a high opinion of a man with that kind of behavior much less married. But then I am married and was trying to get the attention of another woman so I guess I can’t judge much.
Here’s to hoping if there is a balance you can find with him without distress that you find it. Be wary though. I at one time thought LO and I could still be friends after her departure from the job. But now I feel like it would have still misinterpreted even the most innocent of interactions with her as bread crumbs and would have prolonged the LE.
Hi Whoomp,
I relate to every word you said in this message. Especially, but not only:
“Problem is if he instigates contact I’m not really strong enough to say no because it’s still a craving for me.”
“So signs I’m not over it- it still consumes me, I feel sad. I want it to end but I also want it to stay. What a burden.”
It is a burden and you’re really not alone. Finding the willpower to pull the plug on something that on some level feels so good and that we’re addicted to is so hard, as it goes against every instinct. I am trying to figure out how to do it in lowering-contact steps but every time I do, LO reaches out. I honestly don’t think that happens out of malice. Yours maybe sounds different – like he likes keeping women dangling on strings a bit. I hope you can use this to up your strength to resist and cut contact. You know what you need to do in the end, it is the getting there that is the hard part. Keep going. If you develop good strategies for reducing contact and avoiding too much / any response when he instigates (and getting your brain to feel Ok with that), I’d be very glad to hear them!
WhoompThereItIs, I’m sorry you feel this way. Just wondering, did he send awful messages or did you? I am sorry, I should try to find your initial posts, to find out what you mean.
Hi (in no special order) Lim-a-rant, Marcia, Snow, Imho, Frederico, Lovisa, Serial Limerent etc.,
I want to thank you all from my heart for your responses last night, I‘m so very touched. I‘ve got no one to talk about this stupid LE and I‘m so grateful for you all that you bear with me sweating my small stuff and patiently point out to me what’s a bad idea or just give me the feeling of being heard.
You are all strangers but then you gave me what only best friends give, sound advice and a non-judgmental ear.
Thank you, you are fantastic.
I addressed specially the people who wrote this night, but I‘m also very thankful for Bewitched and Lost in Space, and also Adam, MJ, Grego, Gallant and every sympathetic person here.
(I suddenly feel like at the Acadeny awards)
Now I forgot ABCD and Limerent Emeritus and surely others . Everyone would boo at me at the Oscars‘s
You are most welcome Mila. I hope and pray that you feel better very soon!!
Thanks ABCD!!
Mila, we’d all be cheering you on!
You’re welcome Mila. You seem like a kind soul with a good heart.
Thanks MJ, you too!
Thanks Grego!
We would all have a Guinness afterwards!
Aw, you’re welcome. 🙂
❤️
Also, a quick update, I called LO on impulse, he didn’t pick up but called back, and we had a pleasant nice phone conversation where he was like he always is (lukewarm but sincere)and I didn’t mind. Thank you all.
Glad to know that you had a talk with LO, hope that it had a sobering effect on you, Mila. Cheers.
Yes, it did, I’m much calmer now!Thanks!
There you go, Mila! That’s natural feelings/response, perhaps your “authentic” self before LE?
Hope you continue feeling better physically and mentally!
Since you FF was your long time friends before your LE, calling him anytime is not considered (by external eyes) “impulsive”; only your own mind, perhaps still in LE, would make it seemingly so, depending on your internal emotional states of the time and on what your mind really wanted to talk about…
With impulsively I meant I had actually planned not to contact him but suddenly thought, what the heck. A phone call is of course not that big deal between us, but we communicate much more by text.
I’m glad I did, reality checks of his voice and general demeanor are very healthy. I felt much more like my non-limerent self.
I’m not that much better physically, it’s not very bad, but my head is very dizzy. I tried to do some work today but had to give up. There’s so much to do 🙈
Thanks Snow, you didn’t tell me if you are fully restored?
I’m new here! I stumbled upon this page while frantically searching for ways to cope with my LO getting married this weekend. I’ve felt so alone in this (LE going on 7 years…). I’m relieved to read many of you have recovered from your LE! There’s hope!
Hi there Hailey. Welcome to the Lwl forum. Glad you found us. Always good to meet another Limerent but sorry you’ve been dealing with your LE for 7 years. You’re definitely not alone in this Community.
As for recovered, I’m not sure if that’s the right word to use for myself. I am doing better than I was a year ago but still not out of the woods yet. I can’t speak for the others, but I think some are struggling more than they would like to be. You are correct though. There is hope. Stay engaged here and you will see.
Hello Hailey, if you do circle back here, MJs reply is spot on. He is very open and kind.
Gosh, your LO getting married this weekend, that is very tough and my sympathies to you. I had a similar life event with my LO that prompted me to begin commenting here as it was so hard to endure. Maybe to look at this moment as a positive change opportunity as 7 years is a long time. Feel free to keep messaging here. Best wishes for this weekend.
Thanks for your comment! It’s already been so helpful knowing I’m not alone in this experience. This weekend will be tough, but I’m kind of hoping it might act as closure? I don’t know, though. I myself got married a year and a half ago and I’m still experiencing limerence, so…we’ll see.
@Hailey,
That probably depends on what kind of pedestal you have your LO on already. Sometimes a commitment doesn’t necessarily put the brakes on a LE. It can become very crippling emotionally, if you don’t know how to control your thoughts.
Since you also are married, you should perhaps begin looking at what isn’t right in your marriage that has you interested in someone besides your SO.
I am hardly the wisest one to be discussing marriage and limerence because I am 13 years divorced now. (Not because of limerence mind you) Perhaps one of our other married Limerents here will catch this post and reply something more helpful..
@Hailey,
Hi! Nice to meet you. I am with you; knowing there are others experiencing this phenomenon does help one’s psyche a lot. It helps to not feel so “alone” in this.
Is your LE someone you can let go of? The only way I have been able to “get over” a limerent experience is by them leaving my place of work, and having 100% no contact. I am not on social media, so that probably makes it go a little quicker. Are you able to achieve this?
If you haven’t read it yet, I recommend reading Dr L’s “Living with Limerence.” It’s only $10 and it gives us tangible ways to try to beat limerence.
My “type” of limerence seems to span two years from beginning to end, whether consummated or not. So I don’t have experience in long-term limerence, but many here do. I have only had success with becoming post-limerent for people because they have made it possible to go “no contact”. I have also had success with seeing/feeling initial glimmers, and choosing to fight against them to achieve preventative limerence status.
I hope this helps in some way!
Hailey
Seeing LO get into a relationship with another man (she was single when I first met her) never really slowed my limerence. May have even made it worse as now I was jealous of the attention she gave him instead of me.
In the end though, it was what finally helped me let go. Seeing them together when he would come visit her at work, or bring her lunch, or go to lunch together. How happy and excited she was when she would talk about the two of them together. I finally came to grips with the fact that he was good for her and that I should be happy for her.
Which then turned into “she’s not the woman whose happiness you should be worried about” which eventually snapped me back into reality and I was able to look at my marriage and see why in the first place I let myself get infatuated with another woman.
It sounds cruel, but for me, prioritizing LOs happiness over my own is what let her walk away without a scene and me continue to maintain no contact for the last two years.
In my particular case, upon finding this place, I choose to disclose to my wife about limerence, as she already had suspicions of some kind of affair by my words and behavior. She in turn choose to stay with me and help me through it all. We are in a much better place together now and had you asked me I thought I would be where I am now 2 years ago I would have laughed. There is an end to the madness eventually. And we are all here to help you however we can.
Hi Marcia, Lim-a-rant and Serial Limerent,
scrolling became too much for me, I just write a new post.
First of all, Serial Limerent, thank you a lot for your explanation of a neurodivergent. It fits perfectly. I can even now see him standing and waiting for me to do something because he doesn’t know how to react. Still, in my opinion, it’s not an excuse for everything. But it does explain a lot, and I suspected it anyway (and he said so himself „I seem to be wired differently“).
Well, I don’t think I’m demisexual either, and I have to say, my first LE was only about physical attraction and a strong sexual desire. I think limerence can go down different paths and act out differently, depending on situation, LO, etc.
„ Also … is thinking of the limerence as more emotional than sexual … a form of denial? To feel like it’s a lesser form of cheating?“
I do think that it feels better to think there‘s a deep emotional soulmate-pull here than admitting to a physical attraction because it sounds more shallow, but then physical attraction can be at least as deep and dangerous as emotional stuff. When it gets together, the devil’s dance starts:)
Mila
“I do think that it feels better to think there‘s a deep emotional soulmate-pull here than admitting to a physical attraction because it sounds more shallow”
I didn’t think I’d end up with my LO indefinitely, but I did think of him as one of the “big ones.” Yes, there was a strong physical attraction, but at the height of the LE, I definitely thought I was in love with him. I didn’t know about limerence then so it felt an awful lot like the start of some big thing.
That’s exactly what happened with my first LO. I thought it’s a once-a-lifetime big thing.
But it was strong physical attraction paired with a rather difficult and exhausting phase in my family life and a lack of validation as a woman.
Back then I hadn’t heard of limerence either.
@Mila.
I just wanted to leave you a message. I didn’t mean to push you into the spotlight and embarrass you, but, yes, this coffeehouse was undeniably a good coffeehouse. I think this coffeehouse finally helped me understand why it’s a good idea for married people to avoid infatuation (i.e. because infatuation can lead to addiction). This coffeehouse helped me put all the dots together, and understand one of the main groups of people Dr.L’s blog is aiming to help.
This may come as a surprise to you, but of all the female posters here, you are the one who I feel has the most accurate empathy for me as a man. I don’t feel that you understand me as a gay man. I don’t feel you understand me as a straight man. I feel you understand as a man-man. I feel you understand me as a generic male. (I’m different from you, obviously, but I’m still worth of respect as a human).
Of course, I haven’t talked to all the women here. Of course, I’ve shared the most laughs with the wonderful Marcia. But I feel it’s your empathy that has been consistently the most on point. I actually think you’re the woman here with the best (most credible, least unrealistic) understanding of the opposite sex.
You must find it ironic that you find yourself so deeply stuck in a painful limerence for a man, when I’ve found your understanding of men to be rather good. Also, I think you treat men as a group with the right amount of respect and dignity, and that is such a touching thing to see. (A European sensibility to gender relations?)
Basically, I’ve felt free to be myself around you, which probably means being less clownish. If your LO is genuinely a neurodivergent male, I imagine you make him feel very comfortable, and you have been a blessing to his life. You mustn’t punish yourself for this man’s inability to love you in the way you’d like to be loved. Perhaps you were always going to be the more loving party in this bond? 🙂
Hi Sammy,
wow thank you, I’m very flattered and touched. I‘m not sure if I really understand men (or women, for that matter), but I noticed that people usually feel comfortable with me, male or female, and that from my side, I found it easier to be around men for some reason.
„ Perhaps you were always going to be the more loving party in this bond? 🙂“
I‘m not sure if I‘m more loving or more demanding in this bond, to be honest…
Thanks for this compliment, master of words!
Changing my name to Sammy12 as I saw another trail on a Sammy. I am in very early stages of no contact and waiting for me to be over them. Signs I a not – waiting for the text thought I dont want him to, hoping that he feels remorse for the way he treated me (hope I reach a stage where I dont care)
So many typos !! Signs I am not over him– waiting for his text though I dont want him to reach out, hoping that he feels remorse for the way he treated me (hope I reach a stage where I dont care)
Speedwagon,
I am starting a new thread as I am defeated by all the scrolling above. But this is in answer to your ‘why *this* LO?’ post above.
This whole coffeehouse thread has got me thinking a lot. I think I agree with IMHO. The real question is “why this LO *at that exact time*?” So you said you’d known your LO for several years before and registered she was attractive (I think that’s an important element always). But also that you have an objectively more attractive female friend.
If you revisit the time that you first felt glimmer and went into LE for your LO, what was happening in your life? What did she do out of the ordinary that flipped the switch for you? Once the switch is flipped and a person is your LO, the mystique of other possibilities you’ve registered disappears on some level, so it is then difficult or impossible to transfer.
I’ve done a lot of introspection on these questions looking at the period when the switch flipped for me (I know the exact moment). Covid and associated isolation was everywhere, hence forced NC of a few weeks. I had a difficult life event and things were tense between me and SO over a specific thing, which ‘got to’ me. After that, LO suggested an unusual (but not uncomfortably so) social gettogether. I did it, and she was amazingly warm and helpful about some of the stuff I’d been facing. The following day the switch flipped. It was like a perfect storm. Like you, I have never flipped it back. The pre stage is important – I knew I found her attractive and it had simmered a bit up to this point. But this combination of events pushed me over the edge.
Just wondering if you can isolate anything in your glimmer spell that would help you understand it better in terms of whatever your ‘perfect storm’ was.
I agree with Lim-a-rant, a LE developing has a lot to do with “right time and place”.
Writing here, I realize I still have the need to talk to someone about my LO’s. But I like what Snow said – you can’t just force yourself to be over something, you have to fully process it on an emotional level.
From my previous posts, it probably sounds like I still idealize them, but I had an interesting emotional experience while on holiday. (Shame I can’t write this in the “limerence dreams” post, though I was awake, just doing some mental exercises).
I was sitting outside by the water and tried to imagine first my transferee (TO), then both my LO’s, sharing my holiday there. I got to thinking around those lines because I had reported to my TO about my holiday and he seemed fascinated. My mind rejected the idea of TO there – for one, he’s too much of a city boy, and in the end I wouldn’t even want him there. Then I tried LO1 who’s actually from around thereabouts – nah. Then LO2 who, as a nature boy, would fit the location like a glove. The idea seemed to take off at first, but then I saw him there sweating in the heat – and in my fantasy his sweat turned black! Like oil seeping from inside him. I did not consciously do this as part of devaluation, the image just popped up! (Though when I earlier tried devaluing him I pictured him fat and sweating! 😂) And I swear I had had none of Marcia’s brownies and only 1 glass of wine! Gotta love my subconscious sometimes. I take this as a good sign.
@Trifles,
I think it’s risky and not helpful to reducing and removing one’s LE by “meditating”/fantasying on different xLO(s), while negative images or devaluation of them could possibly dim their light for the time being (but it might shine again if LE mindset still present). Focusing externally, IMO, may also turn our limerent eyes to other possible LO candidates down the road.
If I were you, I’d ask myself what was happening in my life (w/o SO), that made my eyes having caught those flawed LOs and fell into a limerence episode?
Self-centered as I am, I could not help focus and reflect on my own LE pains (along with xLO’s darker sides/behaviors that triggered my cptsd pains or emotionally wounded my ego or heart), what’s going on in my past and present life that are making (x)LE pains recurring, and what kind of mental blockage from the past that I haven’t figured out or resolved…
This diving-within, meditative process could be unbearably painful, but I know, by experience, it helps one’s growth in 👁️ and strength by sitting at a bottom of one’s own mental/emotional inferno, from time to time when it is called for…
Good luck to feel better without a necessity of brownies…
Better living through chemistry!
Gosh, could you all stop the brownie talk! I‘m meant to reduce sugar. Help, frederico!
Don’t look at me, Dear
*smug grin*
Ugh, I forgot that you are suddenly the virtuous one with the normal sugar level🙄😘
Mila,
“I‘m meant to reduce sugar”
There’s going to be a fun table at the Limerence Symposium we all eventually have .. and that table will have sugar and brownies. 🙂
Because if we’re not allowed to be limerent, we have to be left with SOMETHING! 🙂
Sugar, Brownies, Guinness and dyed TShirts with Slogans!
Yes💪🏻💪🏻I‘m all for it
Also, I vaguely remember some sort of dance that Adam was keen on performing🫣
Mila,
“Also, I vaguely remember some sort of dance that Adam was keen on performing🫣”
I seem to remember him bragging about his “mad dancing skillz.” And I don’t believe nothin’ until I actually see it. 🙂
Yeah, something with a Stetson and nylon parachute pants. We count on you, Adam!
While I did have parachute pants at one time (and MC Hammer’s CDs) I have never owned or wore a Stetson hat. Western or cowboy hats is not a direction I’ve went down with my hat collection. The closest I might have is a wide brimmed panama but it’s made of wool so it is more a winter hat. I really liked the color of it so I bought it on a whim.
As far as dancing that’s more about how not sober I am and what the music is. Funk or disco will get me dancing. If it’s karaoke it’s gotta be cheesy love songs. Like Air Supply, Micheal Learns to Rock, Bee Gees, Bread, Barry Manilow, Lobo; that kind of stuff. You know that night when you are drinking the vodka straight out the bottle trying to forget that gal that just broke your heart.
Adam,
“Funk or disco will get me dancing. ”
You had me at “funk or disco.” 🙂
If you’re thinkin’ you’re too cool to boogie
Boy oh boy have I got news for you
Everybody here tonight must boogie
Let me tell ya, you are no exception to the rule
Ok, seems I got the Stetson from some other vague memory, but which?🧐
I propose you do a smooth number with the parachute pants and MC Hammer, and after that we get treated to some cheesy love songs along with the Brownies? Maybe a duet with Marcia? Nothing like people singing in thirds and sixths to bring tears to my eyes.
Sounds like a perfect lovely event! Please Adam!
Mila (who should be tucked up in bed)
Yes, well I suppose I may have developed a reputation for trivia but the Stetson reference, in respect of Adam, was down to me, I think. Ye gods, am I becoming defensive and possessive about a friend on LwL?
Where is Sammy when you need him?
Anyway, the parachute pants. I’ve looked it up and they look less dodgy than I had feared.
Oh, good grief.
f x
Mila,
“after that we get treated to some cheesy love songs along with the Brownies? Maybe a duet with Marcia?”
Not a slow love song. Something fun.
The Donna Summer/Barbra Streisand duet. “No More Tears (Enough is Enough)”
[Summer]
If you’ve had enough
Don’t put up with his stuff
Don’t you do it
[Streisand]
If you’ve had your fill
Get the check pay the bill
You can do it
[Summer]
Tell him to just get out
[Streisand]
Nothing left to talk about
[Summer]
Pack his raincoat show him out
[Both]
Just look him in the eye
And simply shout
Enough is enough
Frederico,
“Anyway, the parachute pants. I’ve looked it up and they look less dodgy than I had feared.”
They’re not dodgy. They’re just hideous. 🙂
When I think of Brother Adam cutting a rug on the dance floor, (perhaps wearing fedora) I imagine him dancing to the sounds of “Groove me” by King Floyd.
What a fantastic song that was to add to LOs playlist. Makes me lmao whenever it comes on..
I probably will have one on MJ since if something like this actually happened it would be an excuse for me to buy a new hat. And at the rate that my side of the bedroom wall is getting covered up, I’ll have to convince Momma there’s room for one more.
Maybe even a Stetson if I can put together a nice formal western outfit together since that seems to be how frederico sees me. Been here in the southwestern US for 20 plus years intent on not betraying my yankee heritage. But I can make an exception for my good friend.
I always wanted to move to the Southwest eventually. Would be nice to escape the Midwestern cold every around January.
Trifles,
What a great strategy that “try your LOs as part of your vacation” is!
I can’t currently imagine persuading my brain to imagine my LO sweating black oil! But I think finding ways to test how they’d fit in your real life is great for separating the fantasy LO from the real LO. There are lots of things that me and my SO like doing on vacation (long, challenging walks and trying varied foods, for example). My LO wouldn’t be that interested in either, so if it was her there instead of SO, it would reduce my opportunities to do things I like doing.
It ain’t gonna crack the nut in one hit, but lots of bits like this might add up to being helpful.
Hope you’re doing Ok with it all.
Lim-a-rant, thanks, I’m doing good. And thanks for the new thread – I was going to reply to the previous part but it had turned into a disco wonderland with Stetsons and brownies. 😜 (And I have no objection to that, I enjoyed reading it!)
My “transferee” (friend) previously saying he wouldn’t meet me because of the temptation, actually made me wake up a bit. And also lose interest somewhat. He doesn’t play any games, and doesn’t have any need to – we’ve known each other for ages and always been frank. If he says he’s not going to meet me, he’s not. I have no wish to intrude on his life and mix it up. Plus it turns out he is also legitimately booked solid that weekend so he won’t have to struggle with the decision. I think we still have a net positive effect on each other’s lives so I am not in a hurry to detach, but I know eventually our contact will lessen. I think I’ll be ok with that – at least that’s my feeling at the moment – as long as I find more purposeful pursuits to occupy myself with!
Believe it or not, during my LE’s I’ve never once fantasized about actual life with my LO’s (at least I don’t remember it!). The mental exercise was the first time and it actually helped me – I already knew that I didn’t realistically want them as part of my everyday life, so thinking about it made me realize how ridiculous the limerence is. I just needed their attention/validation.
I’m glad that you were able to reach similar (but your own) conclusions!
I also realized I have enough mental distance to LO that thinking about him doesn’t bring up any emotions.
Hi Trifles,
The thread above got very funny. I like that side here. I think they’re planning the LwL social with DJ Glimmer on decks and Adam dancing, from what I can glean.
I’m interested in a couple of bits about the transfer. Is the transferee (TLO for want of a better way to say it) available or is he married/in relationship? How do you know him? (I appreciate you may not want to say too much, so don’t worry if you’d rather not answer that).
But mainly, it seems like you feel like you have transferred your affections (eg mild crush) but not actually become limerent for him? But at the same time you are no longer limerent for XLO? If that is all true, you have had a bit of a good outcome, as you have ridded yourself of limerence in a harmless way. According to the stories, usually transfers drag the limerence with them, or fail as the person can’t get past the original LO.
And you may want to try to ignore any tougher comments made on here about transfers, as they are aimed at attached limerents like me (and are fair in that event), not available ones like you. I haven’t even transferred, it was just suggested to me here in good faith as a way to keep my LO as a friend but not be limerent for her. If it works for you and doesn’t harm anyone else (as it sounds like it has), that’s what’s most important.
Lim-a-rant, As for how I know the TO and how I stumbled upon him now – that’s quite a long story but I don’t mind sharing, as I doubt he’ll come here. I’ll have to hide some details though. I shared some of it on the Transference blog here:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-transferring-limerence/#comment-56548
Thanks for the comment about the tougher comments, I appreciate it – I actually don’t like the term transference because I’m not sure limerence can be transferred. I think when people – who have successfully done it – talk about it, they mean that they moved their attention elsewhere, not their limerence! Because who would want another LO?
For me it was more of a distraction – he was my project and I immersed myself in helping him. If you followed Jay’s story on here, my TO’s story was eerily similar (cheating SO showing no remorse, using it as an excuse to check out of the relationship – yet TO clinging on because he’s afraid of losing his life and kids).
How we met, years and years ago: he actually approached me in a bar in his neck of the woods – and I promptly turned him down! (That’s probably a reason I don’t see him as LO material – with the others the attraction was instant.) However, a girl is allowed to change her mind, and we got to talking and exchanged emails. Thus started a long distance, flirty friendship that led to a short fling, followed by platonic friendship again. He was my confidante and cheerleader for awhile. Over the years we lost touch.
As I was desperate for a distraction during my LE, I was reminded of this other long distance flirtation/friendship, so I contacted him… He was too busy to indulge me then. Long story short, some months later he contacted me and out came his story. We’ve basically bonded over the breakdown of our relationships (I’d been going through a drawn-out breakup).
I suppose the reasons my “transference” has worked – so far, knock wood! – is that it required so much of my energy and that we have a history of a very honest platonic friendship with enough flirtation (for the fun of it! We know we are not each other’s “big loves”) for me to get my fix without too much danger of slipping into crazy limerent feelings. I hope that gives some more background.
By the way, I love this: “not drifting along for years in the limerent soup, otherwise advertised on the menu as ‘friendship’.” I’m trying to avoid ordering that!
Hi Trifles,
Yeah thanks, that gives great background (I will also have a look back at the other thread). If this works for both you and TO on some level, that’s great. I guess there could come a time when it doesn’t, but that isn’t now.
Re the ‘limerent soup’, that was Mila’s phrase originally and I just added the menu bit. It’s a very real problem. Limerence felt great for a few months until I confronted the reality of what was happening. Then it’s like “Bam, what was that just happened?”; “that was a year of your life mate”. It’s a tricky situation isn’t it when you are stuck there, wishing all the intrusive thoughts away but seemingly not able to make them go? What you’ve done about it sounds quite good to me, in your circumstances. Good to be able to chat here about it 🙂
Lim-a-rant and Trifles,
While I remember warning Lim-a-rant against stewing in limerence for ages while calling it „friendship“, I cannot take credit for terming it „limerent soup“. Cannot remember what I called it.
Maybe the soup was frederico again, like with the Stetson.
Mila,
I must have cooked the soup up all by myself!
Hi Lim-a-rant,
I realized that I’ll have no time at all starting next week, so I‘ll better get to answering your question now, although my head is still spinning a bit.
I think what tampered down the limerence was time, reality checks and an LO who would never cross certain lines. I saw again and again how he would never give me the disclosure, the meaningful touch, the words I was craving for. The few times he did say surprisingly meaningful words or once a meaningful touch fueled my limerence like hell.
But there were much more times when he could have made the move, could have reacted meaningfully, could have said the words, and didn’t.
For whatever reason. So, unfortunately reason nr.1 was not in my control- I was lucky to have an LO who didn’t play along with my limerence. It wasn’t enough to see it one time, but after about 50 times you get the message that nothing will ever come from that side.
Reality checks, meeting with this person and seeing that it’s just a person who‘s completely normal and even not on the same level of attractiveness or maturity with your SO, helped too. But only in a long time span- if it hits home again and again, you start to get it after 50 times, as I said.
The most important thing is to get out of that comfortable pink-hued glasses-zone of limerence, to make an effort to see this person as what/how she really is, again and again. To see how you layer a fake pink sheet over a perfectly warm and nice friendship, probably smothering it underneath.
In the meantime I see my limerence as a sort of sickness that comes over me, some sort of mildew that befell my friendship. It can destroy so much because it makes you want more all the time, expect too much and make demands, and lets you see LO in a way that doesn’t do her/him right.
Because limerence is in the end selfish and only about you, not about LO. And that’s not what friendship should be.
I cannot give you very sound advice, sorry. Maybe once I feel completely out of the woods I’ll have a new insight that I would immediately share with you!
Hi Mila,
First, thank you for taking the time to think about it and write to me when I know you’ve been ill and had a lot on your mind. I’m very grateful.
I’ll quote various bits and reply to each as it is easier to get the context.
“But there were much more times when he could have made the move, could have reacted meaningfully, could have said the words, and didn’t.”
If by this you mean words equating to disclosure, the fact both of you are married is most likely the hugest block on him ever saying anything, as it is for you. You pointed out earlier this week that the same applies to my LO not ever being likely to force the issue with me if she does have any feelings, and certainly it applies to me with her. You might not mean this though – maybe you just mean you hoped for lots more smaller kind words and gestures from LO and didnt get them. If it is that, I get you totally.
“after about 50 times you get the message that nothing will ever come from that side”
Great point, but a difficult one here because what I get from LO is so very warm and consistent. I am working out where to put the boundary and it has to be quite high, so like ‘yeah sure that is incredibly warm friendly behaviour but it is *still* nothing more than that’. I don’t often get the ‘luxury’ of cold behaviour to build up a bank of less positive interactions. One thing that has proved effective is occasions where she behaves perfectly naturally for a ‘normal friend’ but that trigger me as limerent. For example an occasional plan she cancels at short notice. That hurts like the devil at the time. She will have a standard life reason for cancelling that an objective person would see there is nothing to. But I know as limerent that I wouldn’t cancel unless I really had to. This all helps me see the difference in how we relate to the ‘friendship’. I can build up a bank of these moments over time and remember what the momentary hurt of them feels like.
“In the meantime I see my limerence as a sort of sickness that comes over me, some sort of mildew that befell my friendship”
I like the metaphor! I am tempted to start asking you to analyse why mildew gets somewhere, but I am only joking!
“To see how you layer a fake pink sheet over a perfectly warm and nice friendship, probably smothering it underneath.”
With this bit, do you mean use this idea to understand what is happening in our heads (ie with fantasy LO) or with real LO in real life? I can understand it as an idea if you mean fantasy LO. I think a part of the solution is to ‘destroy’ fantasy LO so we are only left with real LO with all their flaws. Because fantasy LO was never or hardly there when we were just pre-LE friends with our LOs. So she/he needs to go?! With the real LO, nothing I’m doing seems to smother it out. We tick by and seem to get along well whatever is going on in my head or hers. The only ways I would smother out my friendship with her are drastic low contact or perhaps disclosure (though I sense we’d even find a way to work with/through that). So my preferred route is gradual LC, to see if I can leave bits of the friendship intact while I exit limerence.
Your story gives me great hope and you have given me some brilliant advice and strategies. I am also grateful for the reality check you gave me about not drifting along for years in the limerent soup, otherwise advertised on the menu as ‘friendship’.
Whew, time to order another coffee and maybe a brownie if there are any left after the rest of you have finished.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
You got almost everything right.
Sorry, English being not my language I have trouble expressing exactly what I want to say.
With the pink sheet I meant the same as with the mildew- I mean that there‘s this sudden neediness and wanting-more coming over us, suddenly it’s not a normal bond but the most special bond in our life etc, and with raised hopes and expectations and tension we start to erode the real relaxed friendship (smother it with this blanket of neediness and pain).
What you told about her canceling short-term is exactly what I meant- signs that she’s viewing it as a normal friendship, not a over-the-top-soulmate- bond where every second is precious.
These are the ones not to miss and to work with!
Mila,
“These are the ones not to miss and to work with!”
You’re spot on. This is the best stuff I have got to work with for now. I knew it anyway, but confirmation is always good. I feel a little progress!
Hi Snow and Marcia,and also Serial Limerent,
sorry, I really cannot scroll anymore.
Yes, there seems to be a need of patience here, that I do not possess (but Snow does!) But I hope very much it‘ll clear up soon.
Actually, the dinner was by no means anxiety-laden, it‘s familiar ground. I‘m just glad we don’t have to clean the house for it now since it’s a mess, no one‘s feeling well and up to cleaning🙈and that I don’t have to show my illness-ravaged face and make conversation with my addled brain.
Marcia, I actually do want to see the whole family as a goodbye. Aside from limerence, they were part of my life here, all of them in a way.
The thing is, for me there was always this deadline of „they are leaving in the summer! Last week! Last time they live here etcetc“, like counting down. LO called today and I realized that he totally avoids thinking like that, he doesn’t want to call it goodbye, he insists on all going on as it was. That started me wondering if I should worry about limerence going on as it was. But I‘m still quite certain that it won’t survive the distance after a while.
Fact is, they could stick around here as long as end of September, due to housing situation. So there might be a farewell dinner another time, certainly I’ll see them before they move.
I feel quite at peace at the moment- Serial Limerent, if you read that, it’s partly your merit. Your explanation of how a neurodivergent might feel explained a lot to me. I suddenly understand him better, and I stopped blaming him for this and that, put the artificial distance out of my behavior ( I mean behavior like „if you don’t answer immediately, I won’t“ etc, petty stuff), and after even a short time I see him almost literally coming tentatively sniffing out if his corner like a timid animal, getting closer and warmer again within his usual limits, and I see that that’s all he wants- me being like always, safely behaving like I always do.
At the moment that’s quite enough for me, too.
Just read your comments again, Snow, I’m glad that you got some work that’s fun!
And Marcia, no, at the moment I don’t feel any need to bring up anything. Thanks for reminding me.
I’m getting quite curious about these brownies, though. My appetite returns.
Mila,
“I’m getting quite curious about these brownies, though. My appetite returns.”
Sorry. By the time you feel better, there won’t be any left. Sammy will have eaten them all. #Greedy. 🙂
Shame on you, Sammy! Where are my brownies!
(finally someone to get my aggressions loose on😃)
Inside his 🥸 bushes…
You’re welcome, Mila! Glad I could help! 🙂
So it’s been a difficult week. I had been NC with LO for 7 months when he messaged me on Sunday which led to me crying in my car while I was out shopping. I posted in this thread somewhere about this. I gave in and messaged him the next day and broke my NC of 7 months.
LO messaged me again this morning, which led to a phone call. It felt so good to hear his voice again. All those feel good chemicals got released in my brain. I was giddy afterwards and disgustingly happy. I’m now looking to get my next fix, thinking of reasons to text him. Why are we built this way?
I was so proud of myself for going NC these last 7 months. It was hard but I have a busy life with work and family and friends and I was able to throw myself into those things when I would begin to ruminate on LO. Now I’m back at the beginning where I started because he thought to give me a little attention. And I just want to sink into it and wrap it around myself like a warm blanket. I know I’m going to get caught up in the cycle of seeking him out again and it just feels hopeless.
Lost Girl
I had a setback yesterday myself. I wasn’t feeling well so I called into work. I woke up around noon. My wife later on in the afternoon took her bipolar meds which often make her sleepy. So she took a nap. Didn’t feel up to playing video games, so I watched TV. You know ideal hands are the devil’s workshop? Did I get that right? Anyway it was for me.
I made something to eat and was watching TV. There was some trailer I think I was watching trying to pick a movie to stream. And in one of those trailers there was a character reminiscing about someone that they hadn’t seen in a long time. And I gave in to temptation and checked her Facebook. She had some new posts. I instantly regretted it and I am feeling ashamed as that, in my book for my own LE, is breaking no contact.
I am having a hard day today, but thankfully have been able to stay busy at work and keep my brain occupied. But now I just want to go home and drink it all away. Cause hey why not?
It will get better. Instead of relishing in what I did, I almost immediately closed the tab on my phone and went back to watching TV. I use the shame to remind me that I am not to her what she was to me. It’s been over 2 years since I last saw her and probably over a year since the last I went to her Facebook. I promise it will get better. And there are so many people here to help you in whatever way we can.
Adam
If it’s not too late, don’t drink it all away – maybe just a little bit to take the edge off.
Take a lot of care.
f
Adam
I’m sorry to hear you had a hard day. It’s amazing how random things can bring our LO to the forefront of our thoughts. I find that when I have down time is when I think of LO too. Being busy is a blessing. Thank you for the words of encouragement.
Hey Lost Girl and Adam. Sorry to hear that you’re going through this. Well, I am also in the same boat. Had a good amount of NC, and was generally feeling much better. Have had some recent contact and bam – the urge to seek LO is returning, and I am back to feeling low, though it seems better than before as in I do not feel that low.
What Adam says is very correct – we will surely feel better soon, it takes time.
This just seems to be a roller coaster, with periods of NC working relatively well, and ensuing contact leading to feeling low.
Totally agree that we need to immerse ourselves in work.
Feel better, you all!!
Hi ABCD, sorry to be so annoying about this, but I know something you could focus on that is way better than thinking of your LO… running!
I’ve been averaging 1 half-marathon distance per week for the past month or so. I did two in one week. My cousin texted me on Friday night and said she was nervous about running a half marathon by herself the next day. I contacted the race organizers to get permission to run without officially signing up and then met up with her at the race. We ran it at her pace which was very modest, but she finished it! The first half marathon you run should only be about having fun and finishing the race. It’s time for you to sign up for a race. Just pick one and sign up for it. That will give you something to think about.
Seriously, it’s time.
No pressure
Just do it
But no pressure
Hi ABCD,
Have read bits of your story in various places here and think we have faced similar issues, but that you’re further down the road of cutting off and moving on.
“This just seems to be a roller coaster, with periods of NC working relatively well, and ensuing contact leading to feeling low.”
I agree with that so much – the same happens to me. My NC opportunities are limited/non-existent, but I can sometimes get stretches up to a couple of weeks. We aren’t talking long periods. But I can notice a difference even when it is a few days or a week or two – I can then clear my head, refocus and reduce intrusive thoughts. But then the ‘bam’ moment is quick to arrive when contact resumes and. the hamster wheel keeps on spinning. I had my hopes up a while back where I got about 48 hours of my head keeping clear even after resuming contact, but it proved a false dawn.
My hope for those of you who can stay NC for longer is that this gradual ‘clearing of the fog’ that I can feel even in a few days/a week continues onwards and helps you feel better and better. The relapses are likely but it sounds like they are affecting you less now.
Obviously don’t say more than you want to, but do you have the opportunity for longer or permanent NC, or do the circumstances of your LE thwart that?
Until a hypothetical future point when NC might become possible, I have to keep working on lowering the amount and dynamics of the contact. I have taken some small but tangible first steps but still need bigger leaps.
Hope you keep making progress.
Lost Girl
Your description is arresting. I am so sorry for what you are going through.
I think that seven months of No Contact was pretty good going. If your LO messaged you, then I think you would have had to be super-human to resist. Sadly you were in tears, it’s raw and it’s so understandable.
I am trying very hard not to resort to clichés but I can promise you that you have experienced a very predictable lapse, a glitch, and next time you get a message, you will have an experience to fall back on, if you think about it. It’s worth remembering how you feel now and bottling that feeling to protect you in the future. I don’t recall your background story, I am sorry, but I have assumed that you would like to be rid of this limerence episode.
I really don’t think you are back to the beginning because this is a step along the way, which is sometimes a bumpy ride. The feeling of hopelessness will subside.
Lost Girl, I wrote some bleak observations in my limerence journal this morning. I am not always the most optimistic of people. It will get better. For me it is taking ages. For you, probably as a younger person doing the “purposeful living’ thing, it may not take so long.
My thoughts and best wishes are with you.
f
Frederico
I like to think things will get better but LO and I have been doing this dance for over a decade.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-for-a-co-worker/#comment-42624
That is a very long thread that tells my back story if you’re interested. Frankly I’m not feeling very optimistic myself right now but I do appreciate your words of encouragement.
Thanks for the link, Lost Girl. I’ve read it now and refreshed my memory. I hope you will soon be feeling better.
Hello Lost Girl,
I really hope you see this message, amongst so many comments here at the moment.
You probably won’t realise that almost exactly one year ago you posted a comment on LwL on a ‘no contact’ blog. You had decided to go no contact with your LO at the exact same time as me. I think we both achieved two and a half weeks ! You gotta laugh at that, right ?!
Your post at the time actually gave me the courage to reply on LwL for the first time in some kind of solidarity, and feeling that I’m not mad or alone in this struggle.
So thank you Lost Girl for that !
You don’t know it, but you were my “someone else is going through the same as me” moment.
From this, I got lots of great advice which I’ve probably not been great on executing NC in reality, as I’m convinced my LO can be a long distance friend.
Recently, I’ve been trying to detach myself from LO, to avoid the missing him so much in between our contacts.
I know he will reach out soon as it’s been too long, and I will get the warm blanket analagy you described so well.
I truly understand the recent struggles you have shared here. 7 months no contact is commendable and be proud of that ! of course this recent contact with a photo (!!) is going to trigger you. Be kind to yourself.
Imho
I do remember that! I’m happy I could be of some help to someone at that time. My own previous attempts, prior to this one, were less than successful quite quickly. The pull to contact LO has always been strong.
I’m glad this site has given you a safe place and good advice. I think shortly after that exchange I left this site. I unfortunately remember some users being a little critical and unkind about such short periods of no contact. Apparently a journey of a thousand miles beginning with a single step didn’t ring true for them. I’m a little bitter about that time period but I found my way on my own. I’m back after this most recent set back though. Sometimes you need to vent! 🙂
I can relate to wanting to remain friends with LO. They’re our LO for a reason, we find something about them compelling and fascinating. But as for myself I know I will always want so much more than friendship from LO.
I wish you luck with your own LE and that it all works out. Also I love your name. It makes me think of My So Called Life. 🙂
Hi Lost Girl,
Sorry you dipped out of here, due to some harsh comments.
On the whole I have found the LwL community is compassionate and supportive. It can go a bit random sometimes 😄
May I ask , did you find you improved increasingly through your 7 months no contact to the point where you thought you would eventually break free.
Could you see a light at the end of the tunnel ? Or was it a remaining same level struggle throughout that period?
I feel I’m being quite inauthentic (rude in fact) of not contacting him by now, and this thought is actually making me feel really bad and worse in many respects. He will contact me at some point and my reaction will probably be acute with a major reaction(as you had).
Obviously, you don’t need to answer and I know every individual is different.
( I never saw ‘My so called Life’s I hope I didn’t miss out)
Imho
I feel like there were weeks where I didn’t think of him, but he would always eventually creep back into my mind. Thoughts of contacting him and sharing something random that made me think of him always popped up. Of course I can see now that the longing for him had improved, after this contact the longing is so much more intense then it was while I was no contact.
I’m currently indulging in this feeling and dove right back into texting him since he contacted me. I’m weak. It doesn’t help that he’s encouraging me to call him anytime I want to talk. He’s traveling a lot for work now so I know for him this has a lot to do with boredom. This should be insulting, but I can’t seem to bring myself to care right now, although I’ll probably be resentful later about it.
I can relate to the feeling rude by not contacting LO. I felt like I was abandoning him and our friendship. Prior to no contact I was constantly the one to reach out to him and check on how he was doing. But I told myself at the time I needed to put my needs and welfare before his. If only I could tell myself that again.
Imho and Lost Girl,
„I feel I’m being quite inauthentic (rude in fact) of not contacting him by now, and this thought is actually making me feel really bad and worse in many respects“
„ I can relate to the feeling rude by not contacting LO. I felt like I was abandoning him and our friendship. Prior to no contact I was constantly the one to reach out to him and check on how he was doing. “
I know these problems so well. I found it easier to keep loose friendly contact than no contact at all. Artificially holding myself back from contact always felt worse and I even thought of LO less when I got the feeling all was well and relaxed between us than when there was no contact.
But that’s me and my special situation/LO.
Being the one who initiates every single contact wouldn’t work well with me either.
In an impulse I threw my journal with all the LO ruminations away. I just don’t want to live in that world of all-consuming LO importance anymore.
I want to view him as an old friend and not LO any more. We won’t see each other for almost a month and then it’s really going to be last days and goodbye, but I feel already now the opportunity to let go.
Hi Lost girl,
I have been reflecting quite a bit on your reply ( a big thank you!) and weighing up the pros and cons.
I know ‘no contact’ is the prescribed formula but I feel I will be thrown into a spike, when LO makes contact at some point (likelihood is high) – just as you have recently experienced. These sharp emotional experiences after longer lulls would be a killer for me.
I’m sure it’s very challenging for you right now and I understand why you just let the renewed contact play on.
I am now considering a slower cordial retreat (high level LC) would work more naturally and avoid crazy ups and downs.
If the ball is very much in LOs court to initiate/ respond, and he doesn’t, then this helps the more natural slowdown as I will now NOT jump in.
“No, Imho you will NOT”
Mila,
thanks for adding to the conversation and
good on you throwing away your LO journals! They served their purpose and you need them no longer.
I’m imagining you running free through a cornfield in sunshine !
Imho,
your spike- imagery reminds me of my blood sugar😂but it’s basically the same principle I guess!
It worked better for me too to behave in an ok way towards LO but nothing more or less, being more passive but not rude.
I‘d love running through a cornfield! But swamped with work and still a bit sore head. Next week will be challenging and some time after that on my holidays I‘ll try to run through an English cornfield, sunshine or not, just to justify this lovely picture. Don’t know if the farmers wouldn’t object though.
Thanks Mila,
I’m probably overthinking everything. Let’s see.
Glad you are feeling bit better.
Oh and you also need to be wearing a floaty dress for the cornfield moment!
Hi Imho,
overthinking is what limerents do all the time, but then it’s good to have a strategy, I guess.
I think we still have a buried instinct somewhere for what is good for us and what not. I‘d try to listen to that, it can be very individual. As I said, I can forget about LO much easier when I have the background feeling of being ok with him, having relaxed contact but not giving too much or little.
Now let’s be precise, do you mean corn or do you mean wheat or rye? Because corn rows are very high and I get creepy memories from horror films.
“Now let’s be precise, do you mean corn or do you mean wheat or rye? Because corn rows are very high and I get creepy memories from horror films.”
By the end of July, the stalks taller than you are.
This one being among the most notable…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_the_Corn
I grew up in Illinois. When I took my 5’2″ future wife back to IL in July to meet what was left of the family, I drove her outside of town, had her stand on the trunk of the car, face North and asked what she saw.
“Corn”
Repeat for East, South, & West.
I read the short story when it was published. I used to drive back and forth to college in Colorado in the late 70s. I hoped my car never broke down in Illinois, Iowa, or Nebraska. I kept a loaded .357 magnum in my backgammon case when I traveled.
Yes Mila, I’m picturing a wafting grassy crop and not scary tall corn/ maize ! I also feel very stressed when I walk through such a crop, and since reading L. Emeritus’ story telling then I may never do that again.
( thank you L.E.! )
IMHO
My irrational fear is aliens. So Signs will forever keep me away from corn fields.
However when I did finally watch Children of the Corn, Momma made me watch it alone. She already saw it once and didn’t want to see it again. I just thought it was just an alright movie.
Hi Adam,
potential aliens landing is more fascinating to me than fearful.
Good to know your views on the film, based on that I will skip it. I struggle to find movies with children as central horror characters believable.
Anyway, a great random conversation to distract me from my whole LE blah !
It might have been that film my vague memories stem from. I only remember seeing the top of the stalks moving as if something is running, but not seeing what, and people getting pulled into the rows etc.
I’ll stick to the grassy, hip-high stuff , Imho.
So, Adam,
Are you an “X-Files” afficionado?
True stories:
Back in the day, I worked with the FBI Critical Infrastructure section. We were showing them the facilities we regulated. One of them is in New Mexico. We had a stop over in Roswell. We had the evening to kill so we stopped at https://www.roswellufomuseum.com/. Overall, it was pretty unimpressive.
The coolest thing was they had an “X-Files” exhibit. I got to stand by a poster of Mulder and Scully with two real life FBI agents. They told me to hold the wisecracks.
I also got to have dinner with an FBI agent in an Italian restaurant in DC. The dinner would have been more ironic had it been in Chicago or New York but you enjoy the irony fate hands you.
In fact both my wife and I are big fans of X-Files. That’s how we met online was in an X-Files chat room. Before I got online my father and I (and sometimes other family) would watch each week’s episode. We have them all on DVD and the movies. Never did buy the “new” season but damn Gillian Anderson still in top form. Some people just age better than others.
That museum would be really cool to go to. I know we’d both like it and the “kids” are both legal adults now so they could stay home if they didn’t want to go. I guess I need to plan a vacation in the near future. Plus I think my wife’s cousin and her husband live somewhere in NM, though it maybe Arizona.
Hi Lost Girl,
I get you are hurting and conflicted at the resumption of contact and it probably feels like an undoing of all the good NC work. But please take a moment to remind yourself of exactly how much you *did* achieve with NC before. That spell is in the memory bank and you’ll be able to tap into it again somehow – it isn’t lost to you, even if it might feel like it for now.
For example: “I feel like there were weeks where I didn’t think of him”. I honestly would take periods of half an hour where my LO doesn’t burrow into my thoughts at the minute. So to get to periods of weeks is massive.
You might just need to play this burst of initial (re) euphoria through – not for too long! – to get to the point where you’re ready to try LC or NC again. Whatever drove you before can drive you again, even if it doesn’t seem so yet.
I am a bit of a position more like Mila and Imho describe their situations, where much lower contact seems more preferable than total NC. We are a minority here at LwL though, as NC would be the Doctor’s prescription if it is available.
If you don’t mind me asking, how did you go NC before without a disclosure of sorts? I think I’d find it impossible to explain to my LO without that, and she’d then just keep reaching out, and my resistance to replying would cave for not wanting to be rude.
Lim-a-rant,
“If you don’t mind me asking, how did you go NC before without a disclosure of sorts?”
Because the naked truth is that I don’t really matter to LO until he needs some sort of emotional validation. It apparently took 7 months for him to need that from me.
Because I like to rub salt in my emotional wounds, I read through years of text messages that are on my current phone (and there are years more on older phones). Out of hundreds of text messages, I can count on one hand the number of times he’s messaged me first. It’s always been me to start the conversation. Since I chose not to initiate contact it never occurred to him to reach out over those months.
“ to get to the point where you’re ready to try LC or NC again. Whatever drove you before can drive you again, even if it doesn’t seem so yet.”
What drove me at the time was being hurt and angry at him and being angry at myself for being hurt and angry at him. The last “event” that pushed NC for me was wishing him a happy birthday and getting no response for over 24 hours. He responded to others via text and social media right away, but not me. It’s such a stupid thing to be upset about, but it’s what broke me.
I used social media to kinda feul my determination to remain NC. We were still contacts on social media, shared friends/aquaintances. I’m a millennial so I post far too much and probably share too much on social media (sue me!). I posted about some health issues early in the year I struggled with for awhile (nothing too horribly serious), memories of my dad on the anniversary of his death, and other random life stuff over the course of the last 7 months. At no point did I receive a text, a comment, or even a like from him on anything I shared. I compared this to a mutual friend we had and their posts. He commented or liked every single thing she posted. It feels so sad that I paid attention to that, but his name would leap off the page on her posts.
I always knew I would hold no value to him in a romantic sense, he’s not available for that. But I thought he valued me at least as a friend, but he doesn’t. I think our limerent brains, or at least mine, makes us think we’re more important to LO than we are. It hard to face the reality of the truth that you’re a diversion for LO when they’re bored.
I haven’t texted him since this weekend and I’m trying to hold onto that anger and hurt that initially led me to NC so I can start all over again. I’m sure in 7 months he’ll reach out again and I’ll start the cycle all over again. Despite the bitterness I my posts, I’m usually a very positive cheerful person in my day to day life. LO just brings out the worst in me.
Hi Lost Girl,
You’ve given all the reasons right there about him as to why you can feel good about holding NC all that time. Maybe you just need to plan ahead more for the next time and how it would feel empowering to hold out if he does contact another 7 months down the line looking for more validation. Imagine how good it might feel to ignore it.
Male perspective – you’ll never know the reasons for his social media and texting behaviour – it’s complicated. Could be anything between him not caring like you’re saying, and him caring too much and not wanting to leave any trail of that. I’d reach out to LO a lot more but I constantly check myself and nine times out of ten stop myself (I am attached and so have big barriers and moral quandaries around this).
But the big thing is, if there’s no positive outcome (because he is unavailable) then it doesn’t matter which way it is – the best thing for you is to accept you won’t know or accept the worst-case version, and move on.
But look, I know how much different this is as a bystander on the internet saying that, and truly being able to think and act right when in the thick of it. I know how tough it must be. I go against my own best advice often enough to keep my LE simmering. Just take a day at a time, focus on stuff thats more fulfiling, and thank yourself for any small win and any way you successfully distract yourself out of bad decisions.
“hard to face the reality of the truth that you’re a diversion for LO when they’re bored.” That would hurt like anything for me if it turned out true, but I can see the possibility of having to face it down the tracks. And it is not a bad view on it to fight the limerent fog with.
Hi Lost Girl,
Sorry your LO broke the NC and has now caused you distress. Lim-a-rant is right, NC will be easier each time even in the midst of setbacks.
Can I suggest to you that this next round of NC includes blocking him from social media. Dr. L talks about social media being a form of passive contact and playing the social media game is probably keeping you hooked even if you are not directly talking with him. You can mute him, unfollow him, block him if needed. Any number of things to keep yourself from seeking him out on SM. It may feel good to take that step and scrub him from social media. It’s a purposeful step.
One more thought. This is a great blog post. Keeping connect on SM is holding onto hope.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-death-of-hope/
Hi Lovisa. Thanks for the motivation to run. I will definitely try that sometime soon. Need some practice for the longer distances, but as you say, in the beginning, the timing is not important. Great to see your running progress!
I want to share a story with you, ABCD. In May of 2023, I lost motivation to train. To motivate myself, I decided to choose a race and tell myself that I was training for that race. I didn’t intend to run the race, but I intended to use it as motivation to train. I looked at many races. My husband knew what I was doing, or so I thought. He entered the room and asked, “Did you pick a race?” The only one that had stood out to me was a 50-miler. I replied, “I think I will train for the [specific race name] 50-miler.” He was impressed and encouraging. I started training for a race that I didn’t intend to run. The first time I overheard my husband brag to a friend that his wife was training for a 50-mile ultra marathon, I got sick to my stomach. He misunderstood what I was doing. I had a choice, I could clarify the mistake or lean into it. I decided to sign up for the race and attempt to run it. I trained so diligently for that race that I knew I would finish it before the cutoff. By race day I was ready. The only reason I did it is because I committed to the goal, otherwise I never would have done it. My 50 mile race was a wonderful experience! I am so glad that I did it.
Why does it matter? I know you will run a half-marathon if you sign up for a race. I don’t think you should put it off while you prepare more. Use the race to motivate yourself.
By the way, you will fall short of some of your expectations and you will exceed others. This experience will be life-changing. I want you to see for yourself. You won’t regret it.
Now let me tell you why it’s not a good idea to put it off while you prepare better.
Yesterday I tried to summit one of the mountains behind my house. It was my 4th attempt. It is a 14 mile hike with about 4500 feet of elevation gain. The physical demands are not a problem for me. The high altitude does not affect me. The darn heights make me dizzy and I have never been able to progress past the saddle. This was my 4th year trying to summit the mountain. I went further than I ever have and for the first time, I didn’t cry. I had to turn around before the summit because my fears were too much. I could let my inner-negativity tell me that my summit goal is out of reach. I could say, “Lovisa, you can spend your time on other things, you are never going to summit a high mountain.” Or, “Lovisa, don’t even try to summit a high mountains until you are over your fear.” I could surrender, but I’m not. Instead, I planned a trip to summit the highest peak in my state. The hike is about twice the mileage and 2000 feet taller than the mountain I attempted yesterday. I have already given myself permission to stop along the trail and wait for my team if the heights become more than I can handle, but I will try to summit this mountain with my team. I am committed.
I am scared and I feel unprepared to summit this mountain. The physical endurance doesn’t intimidate me, it is the heights. The heights scare me. I am scared, but I will give it my best effort anyway. I am committed.
I want you to commit. Sign up for a half marathon and work towards it. You will never regret it, but you will regret it if you don’t try.
By the way, I was one of the last people to cross the finish line at my 50-miler. Anyone who crossed after the cutoff doesn’t show up on the list of participants so it looks like I came in last. I am completely at peace with being last because I finished it. Finishing it was good enough for me. Finishing your half-marathon is good enough. Showing up at the start line and trying your best is good enough, too.
You got this, ABCD! I believe in you!
Hello Limarant. Thanks for your message. I agree with you completely.
My observation is that the intensity and effect of highs and lows is reduced now. Make no mistake, they are still there. Will they ever go away completely – this is a question for later.
Longer NC is not possible yet, so it boils down to managing contact.
One needs a lot of perseverance to go through this, as the lows make it seem that all the earlier work has gone to waste (though it has not). This is what I am trying to do – to persevere. I figure I will feel better eventually, right? I am confident about it.
Good luck to you and to all others! Cheers!
Hi ABCD,
Perserverance is spot on – it does sound like you’re well on your way – kudos.
I get as frustrated by the highs as by the lows (that they are still there)
Here is my strategy and hoped-for outcome. I can’t be NC but I can reduce frequency of contact and change intensity / direction / duration of it when it occurs (limerent brain is constantly out to stop me here but ‘I can’ in a “it is within my grasp to…” way, and have started the process).
My hope is that with these actions, the highs from contact when it resumes will diminish, and the accompanying lows too, each time improving a little until I get to a point where LC triggers the whole reward-pain cycle less. Like you I think expecting to eradicate it totally is another question
Have you found anything similar? As in – has it been the gradual contact lowering that has brought your cycles a bit more stable?
I also wrote two lists which have helped a bit – one of how to lower various modes of contact in installments, another to interrupt the damaging cycle of really wanting but being unable to know about reciprocation (my list assumes not, with several bits of evidence for why).
Good to think it through with you and others here.
LE
She’s sleeping while I watch Batman: The Animated Series. She’s half talking in her sleep and I’m reassuring her I am here. Though her feet she’s buried in the covers. :-/. Not fair.
But its therapeutic watching someone at sleep. Forehead kisses and grabbing her hand when she gets restless.
Women in tank tops, shorts and no socks. Heaven help me.
Mel McDaniel — Baby’s Got Her Blue Jeans On
https://youtu.be/QDTyLi2pKGc?si=7oVK_mX9KINqeC6I
Oh hey, Batman! My SO used to watch that. Mark Hamill’s other big geeky role. 🙂
Oh God Batman TAS was what I grew up with as a teen. Kevin Conroy was THE Batman. And Mask of the Phantasm is the best theatrically released Batman movie ever. I bought tickets to it. There were so many good voice actors in the show and the two movies.
Yep
@Trifles.
“I actually don’t like the term transference because I’m not sure limerence can be transferred. I think when people – who have successfully done it – talk about it, they mean that they moved their attention elsewhere, not their limerence! Because who would want another LO?”
Trifles, since you’re sincere in your inquiries about whether or not limerence can be transferred, allow me to share a personal perspective with you that you may find very interesting… 🙂
I did actually try to transfer my limerence – not once, but four times. However, all four attempts at transference failed. That’s why I sometimes say I had one LO and why I sometimes say I had five LOs. In truth, I had one LO. I tried to transfer the limerence onto four other men over a 20-year period. Every five years or so, I’d give it another go. None of those transference attempts were successful. 🙄
Transference attempt #1 failed because I felt like I was cheating on my LO. (Bizarre, because I was actually involved with neither man).
Transference attempt #2 failed because transferee #2 was very, very straight and didn’t mind sharing that information with me in the bluntest possible way. He told me I was “not myself” (correct) and he told me I was “misguided” in my belief that I had found my soulmate in another man (again, unfortunately, correct). He was the man who felt “discomfited” by my lovesick behaviour, i.e. emotional leakage, around him. This was probably the lowest point in my life, emotionally. This was the time I realised I was limerent and that – from a non-limerent perspective, at least – there appeared to be something deeply wrong with me. 😢
Transference attempt #3 failed because transferee #3 only saw our interaction as a fun friendship. As a limerent, I wasn’t looking for a fun friendship. I was looking for … you know … the romantic equivalent of “Handel’s Messiah”. 🙄
Transference attempt #4 failed because transferee #4 wasn’t looking for a relationship and was very upfront with me about not wanting a relationship. Eventually, I just had to accept that he didn’t want anything serious. He strongly disapproved of limerent stratagems too because he saw such stratagems as manipulative game-playing, and he very much prided himself on being “genuine”.
Since all four attempts at transference failed for me, I think transference is a waste a time. This is why I’d tell younger me to go back to original love object and figure out feelings for him first. Resolve feelings for the person who actually triggered the whole process. I needed to come to grips with the person who glimmered. Dating other people didn’t make limerence go away. The limerence just kept simmering away in the background until the root causes were addressed. 😉
@Frederico.
“Where is Sammy when you need him?”
Sometimes, I think it is wisest just to let the grown-ups talk… 😉
@Marcia.
“Sorry. By the time you feel better, there won’t be any left. Sammy will have eaten them all. #Greedy. 🙂”
No comment. 😁
Don’t hate me because I’m … byoo-tuh-fuh. Not that I’ll be beautiful for long at the rate you’re fattening me up. 😇
@Mila.
“Shame on you, Sammy! Where are my brownies!
(finally someone to get my aggressions loose on😃)”
I thought you were watching your sugar intake? Maybe you can catch up with Frederico? I think I saw him whiz past with a cheese platter earlier. 🙂
@Snowphoenix.
“Inside his 🥸 bushes…”
This is why I can’t be seen talking to you. You’re so … inappropriate. Morality police! Morality police! Suspected thought criminal here! Arrest that woman in pink stilettos – something tells me she isn’t a true stoic. And I read “bushes” as “britches” because … well … maybe Frederico can explain that one to you. 🙄
“You just had a really rough week, and couldn’t find your moustache-removal cream. (The cat, um … took it?) 😁” (Sammy)
“Shame on you, Sammy! Where are my brownies!
(finally someone to get my aggressions loose on😃)” (Mila)
“Inside his 🥸 (mustache) bushes…” (Snowphoenix)
“And I read “bushes” as “britches” because … well …“ (Sammy)
Whose mind/thought is dirtier here? Who needs to be arrested by Morality police?! 😉
I guess one can’t have oneself arrested, so members need to remove him/her out of the police headquarter…
What a shame to ruin a brilliant quip! (my pictographic mind laughed at it for 3 days! 😆)
@Snowphoenix.
“Who needs to be arrested by Morality police?! 😉”
Just in case you misunderstood me, as you unfortunately always seem to do, I was teasing you in a very gentle and kind-hearted way. 🙂
Sammy,
It’s well established here that we are superb in misunderstanding each other…
Thank you for explanation!
@Snowphoenix.
“Just in case you misunderstood me, as you unfortunately always seem to do, I was teasing you in a very gentle and kind-hearted way. 🙂”
In case you didn’t understand the joke due to language difficulties, let me explain it to you…
I don’t know anything about vampires or the seventeenth century. The link between bushes and britches is a purely logical one…
Men’s britches are simply the most logical place to find men’s bushes. (Frederico would know because Frederico is a man). Men’s bushes are … well, if you were Australian, you’d already know. If I’m hiding brownies in bushes, as you so impertinently suggest, logically, I must have shoved them down my trousers. This is allegedly a frequent occurrence during Schoolies Week here in Australia. (Australian teenagers reportedly hide all manner of illicit substances down their pants in the mistaken belief they can evade detection by police of said illicit substances). 🙄
Britches is just an old-fashioned word for trousers. Unless of course you meant to say brushes and not bushes, in which case I’m hiding brownies in my unusually-thick eyebrows, and hence my need for a loan of the moustache-removal cream said to belong to some illustrious-but-nameless person’s illustrious-but-nameless pet cat. 😁
I don’t find anything dirty about moustache-removal cream. Do you, um, like, have dirty thoughts while wandering down the cosmetics aisle in your local supermarket? Gosh, sang David Bowie never, you must really enjoy taking walks on the not-so-wild side!! Your tame lifestyle sounds positively thrilling if moustache-removal cream represents the height of titillation to you, the very zeniths of human wickedness. (My younger sister, like many seriously overweight women, has unwanted facial hair. Have some compassion for seriously overweight women with unwanted facial hair. She does not find moustache-removal cream in the least bit titillating). 🙂
Sammy,
You have just proved my slightly-exaggerated statement 120% — “we are superb in misunderstanding each other…”‼️ I cannot believe that it’s proved to be accurate almost every single time if we cross to speak to each other!
Now, I’m forced to explain my “brilliant quip” again —
Here is your message to @Jaideux (July 25):
“I’m so glad you showed up to collect your gong. Because, you know, if you weren’t, I was going to rise miraculously from my sickbed, slap on a full face of pancake make-up, and accept the Oscar on your behalf, Joan Crawford-style. 😆
We could tell everybody I’m you. You just had a really rough week, and couldn’t find your moustache-removal cream. (The cat, um … took it?) 😁“
From this message, I deduced that you were sick and had not shaved for a while (unable to find mustache-removal cream was just a joke). To me, unshaven mustache certainly looks like messy “bushes” on face — the only thing I don’t like on Proust).
Well, an upper or lower lip is a common place (for both men and women) where crumbs or any sort would linger or hide, especially if unshaven mustache is around — perhaps crumbles of two brownies⁉️ Therefore, that’s where Mila’s brownies have gone to! (I rarely make up “facts” that were not shown in LwL). Under the context (the whole thread of posts about brownies and yours to Jaideux appeared around the same time), so this “bushes” has to be around all the “greedy” mouths and lips!
Good heavens! Until this morning, not for a second, I had or could have ever associated mustache bushes with “britches/breeches” (used in 17th or 18th century for male trousers, I had to look it up! … then bushes in britches… 🙈 Good lord! No wonder you accused me “inappropriate”!
Shaving cream is never dirty, literally or metaphorically; it’s an object that hardly pauses a second in my usually busy LE mind… But I’m not sure about sanitation inside “britches/breeches”… Ask SOs who do their spouse’s laundry…. 😄 After divorce, I’ve managed rarely to think about that arena…
You’re right that I never walk down cosmetics aisle in any supermarket — a waste of my “tame” life or LE daydreaming. I mentioned before dizziness or depression was always a consequence of my shopping in person, unless it’s necessary groceries. Online shopping has “saved” my life, I have wasted a lot of time returning misfit/useless merchandise.
Then from bushes in britches to “seriously overweight women with their unwanted facial hair”? How far your interpretation of my posts could stray off, to Jupiter or outside of the Solar system❓❓They have all my compassion, but I was not born to be a lesbian, is it a discrimination against my own race?
Do you see how much you could twist and misinterpret my comments and jokes⁉️ I’ve long given up to explain myself — we do not live on the same planet, unless we take some cultures tutoring with each other…
Thank you for explaining your Australian “Schoolies Week” 🥶, I’m sure I will ignorantly make “inappropriate/dirty” jokes again when opening my ESL mouth in this forum. I’ll make sure to put down LwL “facts” prior to commenting, seriously or teasingly.
Just remembered that you can’t read emojis, check it in emojis pool:
🥸 = mustache
But I did/do not know any difference between regular and mustache shaving cream; is the latter stronger? 🧐
For the forgetful speaker and previously unaware audience:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/a-new-era-for-lwl/#comment-60630
⏯️ == truce! I’m still in mourning…
“And I read “bushes” as “britches” because … well … maybe Frederico can explain that one to you. 🙄”
Sammy,
Are you telling me that Frederico is from 17th century? What are powerful elixirs for such a longevity?
Frederico is a vampire!? So that’s where he gets all that smooth talking and charisma. He’s had 4 centuries to hone it down to a science. Don’t let him steal your heart Adam. 🙂
Alone in bed thinking about another breakup
Ty Chapman
I’m not brave because I leave gently. It’s not mercy
when the kill lives serving self. I told my therapist
I’m through with villain portraiture but I keep leaving promises
to wilt. Even this is vanity—garden of self-importance. I’m rambling.
What I mean to say: Love is larger than declaration. & chrysanthemum
don’t thrive in starless night. Who am I to light the sky? I know, no one
loves to end any more than we live to die, but I’m learning not to clutch
the ground so fierce. To trust life is a series of orbits;
worship mercy in routine. I know this part like lost love:
gripping sheets, curling toes, tongue feels righteous but don’t fill
empty space. All hollow goings. Carving fresh cavities to become
known. Nimble fingers, sigh & sweat. Fill me full
of hope. After, glow
again fading.
Back to wilting,
gentle kill.
You up?
For limerents, breakups, if possible via NC, only occur in their own head….
Got two moods tonight. Rockin to this cause hell yeah ladies!
Fat Bottom Girls — Queen
https://youtu.be/1ncYJCw7N8g?si=oMUjBE36GtDE4s2P
And I think this the next hat Imma buy. This white boy trying to channel some Prince.
https://ibb.co/yXWgmzx
Yes Miss Marcia I know You Can Ring My Bell. And I try to do it as often as I can. When given the opportunity. 😉
I am wondering if anyone could give me some feedback. I have been doing well and it’s getting close to 8 months very low contact. LO called me yesterday and I let it go to voicemail. I have not heard from him since he responded to a text I sent. That’s been 2 months. Prior to that 5 months when he called me. Prior to that he was calling every 3 months since I went very low contact.
I’ve been making progress and feel better. I feel mean if I don’t respond but want to be good to my SO and know that contact sets me back. It puzzles me that he just calls out of the blue. I’m finally making peace with the fact this person shouldn’t be in my life and that being genuine friends probably is not possible.
We have some common friends and he is familiar with a few of my family members. Because of this and everything he knows about me I almost feel obligated to return the call or respond. Wondering what you guys would do. I don’t want another set back. Thanks and hope everyone here is doing well.
Beth 2
I don’t have the unfortunate situation of not being able to go NC. The only temptation still facing me is her social media. But like you are feeling I finally got to the point that I knew no matter the temptation trying to contact her via phone/text would be disastrous for all involved.
“I’m finally making peace with the fact this person shouldn’t be in my life and that being genuine friends probably is not possible.”
That’s one of the best steps in progress you can make. Because holding onto possible friendship is just limerence still trying to hang on. Limerence was probably not a healthy relationship for either yourself/me nor LO/my LO. He maybe hanging on the the attention you once gave him.
Another great step is realizing that because of the above you have to think about your LO’s future as well as your own. If his sporadically calling/texting you vexes you than avoid contact, not just for your benefit but his too. Once I was able to accept that LOs life was a better quality of life for her without me, it made it easier to ground myself and get back to my own life.
Of course again, I don’t have to worry about contact. LO has never contacted me in over two years. But despite that I know reaching out to her would probably hurt her. Maybe not directly and maybe we could catch up and she’d be friendly and courteous. But that doesn’t mean that wouldn’t drag her into a past that she might be trying to forget, or at least move on from. Gradually opting out of answering his calls/texts might clue him in on what you are trying to do while sparing his feelings. But always first and foremost Beth you have to do what is best for your life. Sure it hurt for a long time that she never has contacted me but eventually I accepted it. As I am sure he will should you feel the need to NC as best as you can.
Thanks Adam that really helps. I hope you are doing well. I like how you say it’s not good for him either.
Hi Beth,
I’m probably not the best to advise from my limited experience.
I understand you dont want to appear to ghost a friend because that’s not nice nor aligned with your values.
I totally get this and I may face a similar scenario soon.
Maybe you could consider a text message to acknowledge you got the voice message and appreciate it but you are not available to connect right now at this time. So your answer is truthful but not disclosure and no commitment.
Like I said I’m no expert at all, and trying to figure this out myself too.
Also to share that a close coworker of mine sent a really odd response when I asked to meet up in his city when I was visiting. He was so eager and then suddenly didn’t reply to the final messages fixing the time, which was so odd and annoyed me a lot at that moment.
Afterwards I reflected on other earlier signs and messages, and deduced that he probably had feelings for me and decided to not go ahead with the f2f meeting.
Of course, he may just have thought that it would be too boring to meet me again!
I may never know the reason but I don’t hold any grudge to him, because I am an understanding limerent.
Best wishes Beth.
Thank you Imho. Those are all good things to think about. I really appreciate it and hope you’re doing well.
Hi Beth, also referring to your reply to Speedwagon’s sage advice, you use the terms of both shaming and fear in your short response about your LO.
No ! you don’t need any of that and deserve more. We all do.
How wonderful you can consult and rely on your SO to figure stuff out together.
Don’t bargain, don’t rationalize, don’t call. Best thing in my view is to keep on a NC path. Like you said, you can’t be genuine friends. You guys are already very sporadic in the communication. I don’t see it as ghosting and there is no obligation. Don’t call if you fear it will set you back. Take care of you and SO first.
Thanks Speedwagon this is very sobering. I need to choose my SO every day. I think I fear LO a bit. I disclosed at one point and he really shamed me for it and I told him so much about myself. My SO knows this. I may need to ask too what he wants me to do. Hope you’re doing well.
@Beth 2,
I’m sorry to hear your setback situation.
I rarely comment here on anyone’s LO, since I have no first-hand knowledge about them. However, if it’s true that your LO “really shamed” you for your discloser and your inner self to him, he’s a GIGANTIC Asshole/Jerk! — forgive my non-Buddhistic and non-Stoic language! It makes me really angry to see anyone who has zero compassion for others’ vulnerabilities, mistakes, and even LE affection — even if not real love, it’s NOT hate or other crimes!
After shaming you, he still “called you out of blue” to hoover or again dally at your LE feeling for him? What a nerve? (Not only he deserves your ghosting but also your bare fists 🤛 ) And you still feel fearful and obligated to keep an unrealistic “friendship” with him, while your supportive SO is by your side? Why❓❓(Please NO need to answer me here.)
If I were you, I’d block his phone number and all forms of contact completely. Meanwhile, I’d mentally and realistically prepare to face the worst — he spreads “rumors/facts” in your network about your LE. What would you do then? Do you have enough courage to honestly face up your friends and family about your LE?
If that happens, I’d buy DrL’s 1st book for each of them to “educate” them and explain to them about my LE with zero ounce of shame! it’s a mental state none of us here has chosen to fall/jump in and all of us are working hard to heal and get rid of such an involuntary condition.
If you avoid preparing for such a possible nightmare, you’d then always live in fear, although your SO is supporting you.
I’m attaching a video clip here, hope it helps you in some ways, even if the cause mentioned in the clip differs from yours….
https://youtu.be/VDKOY0ZTDPI?si=KlZpHP8jUMU49Toh
— The Capacity to Give Up on People
Beth 2, stay strong and determined in total NC!
I’m posting these clips more to remind myself — I’ve been the toughest, unforgiving judge to beat up myself, even my innocent childhood that was completely beyond my control…and then blind and ignorant LEs…
I’m trying hard to light up my semi-muddled head with enough forgiveness and peace… 🧘
https://youtu.be/YxKxi8iM-lw?si=spnZLlqsod3yip-e — Learning to Forgive Ourselves
https://youtu.be/Mk_rbJ4lBYM?si=uz3Rcge4F1x60CWC — Of Course, You’ve Messed Up
So I had this very strange dream as I woke up this morning, that for a change was quite hilarious.
In this dream I was competing for the attention of a lady; Crystal, a blonde (which might be a reference to Crystal of the Inhumans? Which is weird as my favorite Inhuman is Medusa, a redhead … big surprise. But damn did Gene Colan draw a great Medusa. 😏)against THE Shemp Howard. Yeah it gets weirder. We both obviously dressed our best. Me, slicking my hair back with pomade, which I rarely do. Mostly just for formal occasions. And well Shemp dressed as Shemp did.
Most of the rest of the dream played out like a clumsy Jerry Lewis romance movie. With the two of us going at each other like a Three Stooges short. It was weird but fun for a dream I actually remember. Most of the dreams I remember I actually don’t want to.