Time for another LwL coffeehouse post. For those new to the site, these posts are intended for open discussion about any aspects of limerence and how it affects our lives.
As a starting point for this week’s discussion, I’ve been idly wondering about what advice I would give a young Dr L if I could travel back in time and intervene in his romantic (mis)adventures. What wise words would I have for my teenage self?
Probably, of course, he would ignore whatever I had to say (being as how I understood the world so much better as a teenager), and continue to fall into obsessive infatuations that become the focal points of his life for a few months or years.
But, in the vain hope that some knowledge might get through, here’s what I’d probably say:
- I know it feels like she is the most amazing person that could ever exist, but actually you’ll meet several other women who will make you feel the same way.
- Once it’s clear that it’s not going to work with someone new, move on fast. Limbo might feel romantic and comfortable, but it wastes precious time.
- The redhead is trouble.
- You can’t rescue everyone, and it isn’t your place to try.
- Treat the glimmer as a lighthouse – good for navigation but also a warning that there are rocks below the waves.
- Limerence is exciting, but long-term love nourishes your soul.
- Take heart, you do figure things out eventually.
Another interesting thing about this sort of thought experiment is that it helps identify what you really regret in life.
It’s a benefit of purposeful living that when you are living well in the present, any of these sorts of speculations lead to the follow-on thought, “yeah… but if I changed things in the past, I might not end up here, and that would suck.”
That’s a useful barometer of whether you are on the right path.
Anyway, over to everyone else. What advice might you have for your younger selves…?
That’s a tough one for me because actually I’m in the “yeah… but if I changed things in the past, I might not end up here, and that would suck.”- team. But of course there are things I could have done better.
I would tell my younger self to enjoy life and grasp things more instead of waiting for them to happen, and not waste so much time on feeling inadequate or ugly. I was so beautiful and didn’t see it, always yearning to be be as self-assured and cool and „in“ as my mates. (And look at them now.)
If I would have had more confirming experiences for my attractiveness (which I didn’t have because people told me later I came across aloof and superior, and I never lifted a finger to initiate something myself because I simply didn’t believe anyone could be interested), I wouldn’t have needed that sort of validation and craving for finally living it out later.
I do love the photos with captions Dr.L!
Hilarious 😂
Dr L has been mentioned in Guardian newspaper this weekend. I have pasted the link as some of the comments on the article are quite insightful
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/jun/09/why-do-i-keep-falling-in-love-with-totally-unavailable-people
And most comments are absolutely terrible advice!
In fact, its makes me grateful for the proper wisdom here on LwL…
Yes, indeed, but it was an interesting read. Thanks for posting the link, Bewitched.
The therapist’s advice seems to be good —
“When you are able to create a narrative, it will be easier for you to separate the essential you from your obsession. You do this by observing the obsessive thoughts and feelings, explaining them to yourself, but not being them.”
I did the above mentioned technique in my head (since came to LwL, but still not enough), and would feel less “painful” when those intrusive thoughts and feelings (jealousy) grasped me during my low moods, especialy right after waking up. Observing and rationalizing were the way my mind could separate LO from the Phantom (my idealized parental figure), little by little each time.
The other day when I disclosed to LO face to face (the Phantom would always receded into a far back burner), my mind semi-consciously used and benefited from this technique (since at the beginning, my voice was shaky): I briefly explained my LE to LO as if it was just another physical illness I have been having or as if I was taking about another person’s LE. So being in an “observer” mode talking about my observations took me out of from a “doer” mode. It’s very hard for a mind to function in both modes simultaneously or run back and forth. I even said to LO, “Analyzing too much kills emotions…”
Then calmly discussing LE like an academic topic even de-personalized more of my LE feelings, at least for the time being. Therefore, I was able NOT to feel embarrassed to disclose what I wanted to reveal. Luckily, LO is not nosy but more interested in LE as a research project and asked a lot about DrL’s work so far, which helped a great deal in distracting me from my uneasiness to describe my LE with the Phantom — yes and not LO himself…
My point is that observing and explaining LE thoughts and feelings, to ourselves, confidants, therapists or even LO, could help separate us from actively suffering from those intrusive thoughts and feelings.
Bewitched, thank you for posting the link to the article. How are you doing lately? I hope you’re feeling better. 🫂
Dear Frederico,
The therapists response was good (perhaps a little too focussed on childhood, but that’s her thing). For me, limerence was more about self-medication during a stressful life period. It sounds as though the lockdown and the health issues you faced might have had a similar effect on you. But you are sounding so much better recently, it really warms my heart!
Dear Snowpheonix,
I am much better, thank you so much for asking.
I do hope its not just a mirage, however, because I have a big test coming up – something which I eluded to a few times but can’t elaborate on too much. I always feel very unsettled after seeing the LO face to face for extended periods. But, as we all know, the highs are followed by lows and I am mentally prepared for this to happen.
The most important part of this next test is that this time I may meet his SO – and I have been really battling limerence to make the whole ordeal less stressful for me, and for them. I have convinced myself that he is a lifelong limerent himself, as I think he has all the signifers (not only with me either). I have no idea if she is accustomed to this type of behaviour out of him but I actually feel great empathy for them both.
But, at the same time, I can’t allow myself too much of that because what has been very helpful for me is becoming very distant – observing my thoughts about him from a distance, (like you described doing!), and not getting caught up in it all. It’s very useful being more analytical about the whole thing. Otherwise, old romantic and sentimental beast that I am, I get far too sucked-in. I feel emotions a little too strongly sometimes…
Snowpheonix, I wanted to tell you how much I admire how you have conducted yourself with your LO. You have really taken control of it, without compromising on your own core beliefs. And you have documented your own personal growth so beautifully here. Thank you for that. I always enjoy reading your prose.
Bewitched
I have just read the article again, and some of the comments. To me it reinforces how important LwL can be because friends do start to roll their eyes a bit after a while and there is nothing quite like talking things through with people who understand. I don’t think I find LwL triggering, but it can be very addictive.
I read your post in full, of course, and I am not sure how well I would deal with the test which you describe; seeing LO and meeting his SO. Somehow we just cope when there is no alternative, I suppose. Sometimes being in the thick of it could perhaps be preferable to thinking about interactions and stresses afterwards, or so it seems to me in retrospect.
I am so glad that you are feeling better.
The therapist’s advice in the article was interesting. You seem to have an idea of what caused your susceptibility. I believe that mine relates to childhood experiences because they are so obvious, and seemingly textbook, as a cause of insecurity. Everyone deals with things differently but, for me, once I had a clear idea, partly from reading here, I decided that it was enough and digging further into the past would not help. If I take my LO off his pedestal, I realise that he has relatable issues too. But yes, this episode was accelerated for me when lockdown started and I also became unwell. Self-pity would never be a good look though.
I started writing a brief journal several months ago. In one entry recently, I copied something that Mila wrote about my LO and I found it very helpful – such an insight, pieced together from things I had mentioned when rambling.
You touched on the highs and the inevitable lows within limerence and I still find them astonishing. I am indeed feeling much better recently and thank you for your kind comment. I am no longer grumpy and, after four years, it’s certainly time that I moved past my LE, especially as there has been no contact all for five months.
I surprised myself today on my walk because I suddenly felt angry and enraged by memories of LO. I still remember the affection which he once showed me, and the things that he said. It felt like a bond of lifelong friendship but that’s not how things turned out, of course.
Anyway, the anger has subsided now and the memories will no doubt become more distant.
Well, thank you very much for the distraction, Bewitched. Wishing you all the best,
f
Hi frederico ,
I‘m so honored that you copied my random guess at your LO‘s behavior!🙏🏻
It’s interesting that you mentioned a few times that you get enraged at your LO from time to time.
I‘m really at the very tail-end of my LE , and the one left-over emotion that comes up sometimes is also anger.
We wrote today a bit and I had to end the chat (Emoji-kill it) because I got angry.
I get angry because I‘ve got health problems at the moment,not feeling too well, and feel that he‘s uncaring and only interested in himself.
But when I think neutrally of it, he‘s not that much more caring or uncaring than other friends. I can see that and calm down, but I still have this anger as a knee-jerk-reaction leftover from limerence, this expecting too much from him.
Now I can just end the chat in an amiable way,not initiate contact in the future and in the meantime forget about it.
Could also be that the anger helps me to kill limerence once and for all, could be that I’m quite prone to interpret his texts in an unfavorable way because I actually want to find him uncaring and „not worth it“. Not fair, maybe, but as I wrote before, whatever helps, bring it on..
Could also be that some other emotions wake up when I see him again. But at the moment I‘m in a very good place concerning limerence- not feeling limerence towards him, and no new LE on the horizon.
I would drink to that and to your feeling better and going on a holiday, but I am not allowed🙄
Hi Bewitched,
Who knows, this test might prove to be beneficial, maybe you dislike the way he treats his SO or something offputting like that.
In any case, when I met my former LO‘s last SO (as I described somewhere, at a garden party), I didn’t have time to prepare mentally but in the half hour I had, I decided on how I would like to present myself and behave, and that’s why I walked up to her, introduced myself and was generally being nice and amiable. Afterwards shaken, but felt better for not having let myself down by hiding in the bathroom or being awkward to her.
Maybe it will help to decide to be an easy and happy guest, stick a bit to other colleagues from whom you know they like you, and from that vantage point observe a bit how LO behaves at home, and analyze your observations later on, not there.
I‘m sure you will pull this off nicely and afterwards you‘ll have time to think about it. It might even be a step forward for you.
More information might dis-enchant him a bit.
@Bewitched,
Sorry I could not respond your post yesterday, there was a chaos of tutoring scheduling adjustment while I tried to pack and arrange more detailed traveling plans with my old classmates, friends, relatives in several parts of COO. Their genuine welcoming, sweet caring, thorough plannings and considerations are just touching…. Now, I’m getting excited, finally!
I did not forget your anticipated party at LO’s home, where you’d meet his SO — a very tough situation indeed. I think and hope this personalized meeting with SO could and would somehow help emotionally distance yourself further away from LO, thus suffering stress less. SO will no longer remain as a concept but a real person who would have interacted with you (by now), and then becomes harder to be mentally/emotionally “dismissed” when you encounter LO again.
“I have convinced myself that he is a lifelong limerent himself, as I think he has all the signifiers (not only with me either). I have no idea if she is accustomed to this type of behaviour out of him but I actually feel great empathy for them both.”
Hmmm…. I have long stopped guessing and analyzing enigmatic LO (I did not dare to trust my intuitions…), it’s futile and useless — we could not even understand enough of ourselves, eg. causes of our limerence. And even knowing LO more would not help our internal battles with LEs; LO is just catalysis and bystander of our limerence.
I’ve focused more on analyzing myself since last Fall after I knew I’d leave the job. This morning upon waking up, I had a breakthrough revelation (pondering over the points mentioned in “the Guardian” article you linked) and think I’ve found a direct, missing link between my cptsd and all my LEs. But I do not have time to talk about them now, my day has been booked before I head over to the airport.
I know you can beat up your “test” and wish you a good luck for now — still at the party?
🫂
Hi Frederico,
“Everyone deals with things differently but, for me, once I had a clear idea, partly from reading here, I decided that it was enough and digging further into the past would not help.”
Yeah, I am with you on this Frederico. Once I reached a certain age, I tied to understand my own reactions with compassion and move on swiftly from there. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, personality quirks and hang-ups, I have mine, and observing them is a constant learning curve. Its useful to know where my boundaries for stress (for instance) are. Or for other people being too demanding. No-one else pays too much attention to my strengths and weaknesses as they are so occupied with their own stuff. So this is good, it can be like everyone’s private hobby to understand themselves. But you can tell from other people’s reactions what they think your (my) strengths and weaknesses are as well. The things is that I don’t imagine therapy would ever help me. I am too cock-sure of myself for that, hahaha.
One thing that made me a little envious was that you obviously have friends in whom you have confided about this LE. Even if they get bored by the topic now, 4 years later, that sounds like a fantastic unburdening. The only people who know about my LE are you guys on here….
“You touched on the highs and the inevitable lows within limerence and I still find them astonishing. ……
……Anyway, the anger has subsided now and the memories will no doubt become more distant.”
I find that I cycle between anger and sadness and (of late) a bit of distance as well. I was worried that once I started to recover, I would feel grey and dead inside, or worse, depressed. But instead I am actually relieved on the days that I am not having all the emotions (up and down) like I was before. That is not every day though. Not yet.
“I started writing a brief journal several months ago. In one entry recently, I copied something that Mila wrote about my LO and I found it very helpful – such an insight, pieced together from things I had mentioned when rambling.”
I have a little journal on the go too and regularly copy and paste useful text from the LwL posters, the things that crystallise useful framing of how to handle the out of control thoughts. I used one from Snowpheonix last week about not reading anything special into LOs messages. Mila also mentioned to try and avoid a ‘me and LO narrative’, which I think is so useful. Beth’s Stop sign, etc. (Was it Beth?)
Haha I am rambling.
In summary – here’s to not feeling grumpy!
“I find that I cycle between anger and sadness and (of late) a bit of distance as well”
Bewitched
I have been finding that when her name comes into my head I am immediately angry. “NO!” I get frustrated. And I hate this. Angry is no more productive than obsession. I just want peace. I want to show my wife that I am making progress. That I am wanting out of it. And I do feel like I am. I don’t consciously think of her. I focus my thoughts on Momma. We have had some really good times lately, just the two of us together. I try to direct my anger at the limerence itself. Not Momma, not her and not myself. For the moment it seems to be working. As all three of us in some degree are all the collateral damage of limerence.
Thanks for posting this! I can relate. The therapist says longing which is agony, has been confused with love which is bliss or at least comfortable. I would agree with this and my earliest feelings of this was in my preschool years. It was for a clergy member that I was allowed to go visit alone. I have a vivid memory of this nervous anticipation of seeing him and standing by the door to the church. The door opens and then the scene goes dark. I cannot tell you what he looked like and I have tried to find out with no luck. Limerence to me is agony. An almost sick agony that feels a bit good at the same time. I think that was my first LE.
The episodes continued. Famous music stars, teachers. The worst were in adulthood and each one had a power imbalance. My internship supervisor, a doctor and currently a boss. I didn’t know what limerence was until this one which is the longest and worse. The only way the others ended was by complete no contact which just a byproduct of life changes. I never knew it was a thing to do. I do remember extreme pain in having to do so.
One I worked with several years later and it was completely gone. He actually was quite irritating. I don’t want the longing agony anymore. This has just turned a light on today that these were a substitute for love and the love I have in my life sometimes didn’t feel like love. I wish I could have seen this years ago! Sorry for the ramblings it’s just so eye opening.
1. Don’t chase anyone whether it be a friend or romantic interest. People that want to be in your life will be there. Any relationship where you’re doing most of the reaching out is draining. A person that is interested will initiate contact. There might be times you will reach out more but healthy relationships have more of an even flow.
2. Just because a person responds doesn’t mean they’re interested. Many people will respond. Look for people who reach out and respond to you.
3. Attention is not love.
4. Real love isn’t grand romantic gestures. Yes those can be a part of it but often the one doing the gesture, especially on social media, gets a lot of attention and an ego boost. Think about that.
5. Love is not like a rom com and you will be disappointed and possibly miss it if you’re waiting for it to be like that. Remember, a movie needs to speed through an entire romance in less than 2 hours. Real love and life is full of lots of boring, monotonous things, dirty socks, morning breath and bed head.
6. Remember that your LO has dirty socks, morning breath, bed head and much worse!
6. OK, now you’ve set me off into reverie about being LO’s partner, waking up with him, lovingly picking up his socks and doing his laundry. Where’s that stop sign when you need it?
“1. Don’t chase anyone whether it be a friend or romantic interest. People that want to be in your life will be there. Any relationship where you’re doing most of the reaching out is draining. A person that is interested will initiate contact. There might be times you will reach out more but healthy relationships have more of an even flow.”
This is very true and I find myself in this state of being with LO continually. Yet it is hard not to chase at times. Thank you for this, I needed to her it today.
“The redhead is trouble.”- Amen, brother!
“You can’t rescue everyone, and it isn’t your place to try.” – True. Emotionally corrective experiences are a thing. Deep down we may not really want to rescue them, we want to do for them what we were incapable of doing for someone else. Also, we may not really want to rescue them, we want them to rescue us.
There’s a lot of them. Here’s something I wrote years ago under a different screen name.
LE’a Maxims for Relationships: (with Apologies to George Bernard Shaw)
Want vs. Need:
– Between someone who claims to want you and someone who claims to need you, go with the person who wants you. They’re less likely to resent you later.
– In relationships, want trumps need. If someone wants you, it’s because of who you are. If someone needs you, it’s because of something they lack.
– There’s nothing cooler than being with someone who wants to be with you.
– Theft by force is robbery. Theft in your absence is burglary. Theft under duress is extortion. Theft with your consent is fraud. Crimes of the heart are always fraud.
Threat and Risk:
– Threat is a function of capability and intent. Underestimating what someone might do is bad. Underestimating what someone can do might be fatal.
– Risk is a function of threat, vulnerability, and consequence. We only control our own vulnerabilities. We may be able to mitigate consequences. Eliminating threat is usually unethical, immoral, or illegal. Watch Sleeping With The Enemy.
– No Contact works because it separates threat from vulnerability. If you can’t eliminate the threat or reduce your vulnerability, stay away from it! If you must remain in contact with them, remember “ALARA,” As Low As Reasonably Achievable. The analogy between these people and radioactive waste is not coincidental.
Fear, Obligation, and Guilt:
– Fear and Guilt are voluntary. They’re like voodoo because it only works if you believe it. Obligations can be forced upon you, often by a court. See your state’s website for Child Support and Alimony schedules.
– Children are the ultimate obligation. They may not always be your partner but they’ll always be the kid’s parent. Marriage is a distant second.
Miscellaneous:
– Some folks have the potential to go through life as very unhappy people. But, don’t ever tell them. They’ll only hate you for it. Stay away from them, if you can. – I actually said that to LO #2. She brought it up at our goodbye and added, “I hate you for that.” Oh, well…
Not on previous list:
– Not everyone who comes into your life is meant to stay there. Billy Joel wrote a song about it, “Say Goodbye to Hollywood” (1976/1981) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyQi5FJb_nI [This song drips with irony. When I encountered LO #4, she was living in Hollywood with her then BF. She loved Billy Joel and posted a video from that time that she took. I bet that she was in that crowd.]
– There is nobody that you can’t live without. There might be people that you might miss terribly if they’re no longer in your life but you can live without them.
– Never get involved with someone who has more problems than you do. – At the time I started dating LO #2, I had no idea what a personality disorder was. She was my first adult relationship.
– Believe your indications. Focus on facts. What they say and do are facts. You can record them. Why they say or do anything is presumption and speculation. Actions speak louder than words. It often isn’t the facts that kill you, it’s the presumption and speculation. Take them at their word. It will save you grief in the long run.
I probably missed a few.
After a fresh cup of coffee, I’m back…
– People aren’t who they are because of the relationships they have. They have the relationships they have because of who they are. – People often get that wrong. They reverse cause and effect. Getting it backwards is the basis of NAMALT/NAWALT. I got it wrong at first with LO #2. Once I figured it out, a whole lot of things began to make sense. When I told that to LO #4 (a PsyD), she said “Wow!” She later told me that between telling her that and to focus on facts, I opened her eyes to what was happening in her relationship and she would always be grateful to me. I’ll take that for a legacy.
– Identify your blind spot(s). Most people have one. Personally I think blind spots and glimmer are likely related but I haven’t thought it through. LO #2 had a blind spot for infidelity. It defined her world view. LO #4 claimed her father was a Narc. She’s qualified to say that. She never met a Narc that she didn’t try to rehabilitate (See emotionally corrective experience). An unhappy woman who saw me as part of the solution would bring my inner 5 yr old out of nowhere trying to do for her what I couldn’t to for my unhappy mother.
– Understand the difference between unintended consequences and unforeseen consequences. An unintended consequence is something you didn’t want to happen. Pregnancy and STDs are unintended consequences of unprotected sex but they’re rarely unforeseen consequences of unprotected sex. Think things through.
– People are who they are. You might think you know them and can predict how they’ll respond to things but you probably really don’t. They have their own wants, needs, desires, and agendas. Don’t be surprised if they go off-script. Bad assumptions lead to bad threat and risk assessments.
– Understand the difference between a tragedy and an unfortunate event. A tragedy is an unintended and unforeseen consequence. An unfortunate event is an unintended consequence that could have been foreseen and avoided. Go outside the marked boundary on a ski slope, kiss a tree and killing yourself isn’t tragedy, it’s an unfortunate event. You assumed risk and you lost.
– Your self respect is the most important thing you possess. Defend it fiercely. If someone doesn’t respect you and treat you well, get rid of them and find someone who does.
– Accept responsibility that’s rightfully yours but don’t accept responsibility for something you didn’t do. It erodes your self-respect. Don’t apologize for something you don’t understand.
“You ask if I love you
Well, what can I say?
You know that I do and that this is just one
Of those games that we play
So, I’ll sing you a new song
Please don’t cry anymore
I’ll even ask your forgiveness, though I don’t know
Just what I’m asking it for”
“Hold Me Now” – Thompson Twins (1983) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ9nPidefaQ – I started dating LO #2 in 1983 and this song defined that period.
– Life is full of choices. You don’t have to make the best choice, you only have to make a good choice. Sometimes, all the choices are good. Pick one. Sometimes, there are no good choices, pick the one with the least consequence. The best hitters in baseball only hit .300. According to one stat, only 23% of players can do that over a career. Understand the “point of diminishing returns.” You can save a lot of time and effort.
So much to learn in life…
Dear young Lovisa,
Nurture the relationships that matter: healthy friendships and family.
For goodness sake, stop daydreaming about attractive men. Just stop it.
Pay attention to what someone does. It doesn’t matter what they say. It doesn’t matter how you interpret their behavior.
Someone who wants to keep in contact with you, go out with you, disclose their feelings and let you know where you stand, commit to you … will do so.
If you can’t figure them out, that’s intentional on their part.
Forgot something. No, your LO is not your soulmate, twin flame and there is no special bond. These lines of thinking will take you to very difficult places and make it harder to get out of your LE. If you look hard enough you can find signs. Your mind can play tricks on you. Your LO could even be trying to string you along for any number of reasons. Be careful!
And another- I read this on this blog or another one. When in an LE, your mind wants to do anything it can to connect with your LO. When you feel a strong urge to do something, like contact your LO or text, disclose etc, it’s often wise to do the opposite. Don’t send the text, don’t call. My therapist told me to wait 24 hours. Often the urge will pass. Did I always do this? No and regret a lot for the times I didn’t.
All good advice, Beth 2. I think you might be feeling conflicted at the moment. It’s as if I’m sitting right next to you – I’m sending you love and empathy, for what it’s worth.
f
Thank you! Yes I am relapsed a bit and don’t want anyone else to deal with this. It’s amazing how my brain seems to be purging information if that makes sense. Also mad at myself for reaching out after 5 months. But today is a new day, right? Thanks again and hope you are doing well!
I don’t have a message to my younger self, strictly speaking. However, I would like to thank publicly a poster on this board who has (perhaps unintentionally) helped me more than anyone else, and that poster was/is Marcia. 😉
Marcia, I’ve always felt close to you emotionally. I think it’s because we were “newbies” here around the same time. I arrived August 2020, if not sooner, and you stuck your head above the parapet around February 2021, if not sooner.
By now, I’ve watched you more or less “interview” every regular poster on LwL, giving the late Dorothy Tennov a run for her money. However, your style of questioning has never been intrusive.
I have always related to your posts. At the same time, I’ve never taken anything you say too seriously, which is perhaps the secret to lasting goodwill. (I understand you are often serious and sarcastic at the same time, and I have the same foible).
You’re never mean-spirited in your remarks, which I like. And if there’s anything wrong with your posts, it’s that they stray too far in a slightly steamy direction, which is hilarious. Your ongoing interest in sex, despite being in the late summer/early autumn of life, is extremely endearing. In my imagination, I always picture you as Blanche Devereaux from “The Golden Girls”. 🙂
You’ve written that infatuation makes you feel “giddy, silly, and stupefied”. This makes me realise that I don’t fall in love the same way women do. You ladies are having a totally different experience. (I don’t think I’ve ever felt “giddy” in my life).
You said to Limerent Emeritus once that you feel you have “one big sexy adventure” still left in you. Limerent Emeritus gave you a response you didn’t like. You told him to stop replying to your posts. I felt a bit panicky for a moment. It was like: “Oh no! Mummy and Daddy are fighting!” You and Limerent Emeritus have been like the unofficial Mother and Father of the group. (Life experience, not age).
Maybe you haven’t resolved your own limerence, despite four years plus on the board. However, you have helped me resolve my own limerence, simply by listening to me sympathetically and not being overly harsh in your judgements. I may be projecting, but to me you embody Jung’s archetype of the “wounded healer”. (You can help people, but you can’t necessarily help yourself). 🙂
People say thought crimes don’t exist. I don’t agree. I felt as if my LE was a thought crime. And I wanted to confess this thought crime to a female. The reason I wanted to confess this thought crime to a female is I think I coveted something belonging to the opposite sex collectively i.e. my beautiful male LO. I’ve realised I don’t want/need my LO anymore – not even as a mental construct. In talking to you, I’m symbolically gifting him back to the fairer sex. He’s your problem now. Take him please, woman of planet earth, and fight over him to your heart’s content! No refunds! 🤣
I have thought of one last cringeworthy pun for you to conclude our innuendo-laden conversation from the other day. One last time, I beg indulgence from Dr. L for my terrible humour.
Marcia says: “I’m going to skip out on that {prayer for a pure mind] and go find one of these foot-long sandwiches you wrote about [size matters reference]. 🙂”
Sammy says: “In that case, all the breast!”
This pun is hilarious to me because “all the breast” is a play on the well-known English phrase “all the best”. “Breast” is a suggestive word, and the tone of our banter was low. We were lowering the tone of the blog with our suggestive banter. And finally, brilliantly, breast meat is often found on precisely the kind of sandwiches advertised on the side of buses e.g. chicken or turkey. I call this pun a “slam dunk” because it works on so many levels. 😜
In other words, Marcia, thank you for being a friend to me. Appreciate it. 🙂
@Marcia.
Sammy says: “Maybe you haven’t resolved your own limerence, despite four years plus on the board.”
That should read … “just over three years”.
Apparently, gay men can’t do Maths. And I’ve been here just under four years. 🙂
Sammy,
“Marcia, I’ve always felt close to you emotionally. I think it’s because we were “newbies” here around the same time. I arrived August 2020, if not sooner, and you stuck your head above the parapet around February 2021, if not sooner.”
What a sweet, sweet message. I have been feeling a bit low today, and this was just so nice to read.
“I have always related to your posts. At the same time, I’ve never taken anything you say too seriously, which is perhaps the secret to lasting goodwill.”
Ha! I’m two parts serious, one part sarcastic … and one part a little crazy. 🙂
“And if there’s anything wrong with your posts, it’s that they stray too far in a slightly steamy direction, which is hilarious. Your ongoing interest in sex, despite being in the late summer/early autumn of life, is extremely endearing. In my imagination, I always picture you as Blanche Devereaux from “The Golden Girls”. 🙂”
What a great compliment! I love that character! There’s a great episode where she’s talking about nuns. And she says, “That’s exactly what it means. None.” !
“You’ve written that infatuation makes you feel “giddy, silly, and stupefied”. This makes me realise that I don’t fall in love the same way women do. You ladies are having a totally different experience. ”
Really? That’s one of the most delicious things about infatuation. How would you describe how you feel when you’re infatuated?
“You said to Limerent Emeritus once that you feel you have “one big sexy adventure” still left in you.”
I don’t know about that anymore. I feel like I’m too old for the other side.
“You told him to stop replying to your posts. I felt a bit panicky for a moment. It was like: “Oh no! Mummy and Daddy are fighting!” You and Limerent Emeritus have been like the unofficial Mother and Father of the group. (Life experience, not age).”
Just to be clear: I am NOT the Mother of the group. I’m not that much older than you are. 🙂 I don’t want to be a parent. You can’t cast me in a role I didn’t audition for. 🙂
“Maybe you haven’t resolved your own limerence, despite four years plus on the board.”
Wow. You’re putting me through my paces today. Is it resolved? For the most part, yes. Is there a small part of me that still longs for the highs? For the excitement of being around him? Yes.
“However, you have helped me resolve my own limerence”
I’m glad to hear that. Truly.
“You can help people, but you can’t necessarily help yourself.”
Truer words were never written. Now that my limerence is for the most part gone, I have other s**t I have to deal with. That should be a post actually. What do you do when you have to confront the crap you were escaping from by being limerent?
“The reason I wanted to confess this thought crime to a female is I think I coveted something belonging to the opposite sex collectively i.e. my beautiful male LO.”
You wrote your LO was beautiful. I think beautiful people belong to the world.
” In talking to you, I’m symbolically gifting him back to the fairer sex. He’s your problem now. Take him please, woman of planet earth, and fight over him to your heart’s content! No refunds! 🤣”
I’m not sure we want him. 🙂
“Sammy says: “In that case, all the breast!””
I like it! 🙂
“We were lowering the tone of the blog with our suggestive banter. ”
I’m not done yet. I think we can go lower. Shawty got low, low, low … 🙂
“In other words, Marcia, thank you for being a friend to me. Appreciate it. ”
Right back at you.
I have found your posts to be intelligent, intuitive, funny, with a big helping of literary and cultural. (Although I have aged a year while reading some of them. 🙂 Ha! I had to get that one in!) How could I not love someone who quotes Camille Paglia?!
I remember the “Don’t reply” exchange but not the details. When you first arrived, it was like you and I were on different planets. Our exchanges are better now.
As for not being cast for a role that you didn’t audition for:
“If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve.” – William Tecumseh Sherman
How’s that for company?
Have you ever seen the movie “Middle Age Crazy” with Bruce Dern and Ann-Margret? It’s kind of sad but really good. Bruce Dern’s father dies and he becomes the family patriarch. His comment to that was, “But, I don’t want to be the Daddy.”
Some roles you just can’t avoid. But, I agree with you. You’re not the Mommy, you’re more the hipster aunt.
I’m shooting for LwL curmudgeon, like Ed Asner in Hallmark movies or Lou Grant.
LE,
“I remember the “Don’t reply” exchange but not the details.”
If I remember correctly, I said I had one big LE left in me until I settled down with someone serious. You didn’t like that. 🙂 But I think we’re different in that I’ve never become limerent for someone who would make a good, long-term partner. With limerence, I’m just filtering for intensity. With a long-term partner, there’s so much more to it.
““If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve.” – William Tecumseh Sherman. How’s that for company?”
I’m not crazy about Sherman. 🙂
“Have you ever seen the movie “Middle Age Crazy” with Bruce Dern and Ann-Margret? It’s kind of sad but really good. Bruce Dern’s father dies and he becomes the family patriarch. His comment to that was, “But, I don’t want to be the Daddy.””
I’ll have to check it out. I like Ann-Margaret. She was so good in “Carnal Knowledge.”
” You’re not the Mommy, you’re more the hipster aunt.”
I’ll take it. 🙂 Although I wish I was still at an age to be “hipster sister.” It sucks getting old.
“I’m shooting for LwL curmudgeon, like Ed Asner in Hallmark movies or Lou Grant.”
I think of you as a revered, retired faculty member who pops back in every now and then to update us all on his ongoing research.
@Marcia.
“What a great compliment! I love that character! There’s a great episode where she’s talking about nuns. And she says, “That’s exactly what it means. None.” !”
That line is fantastic – just fantastic. I can only imagine the barely-disguised quiver of disappointment in her voice as she says it. 🙂
“How would you describe how you feel when you’re infatuated?”
A lot of pleasure. A lot of anxiety. Confusion at the profoundest level, so I get the “stupefied” part of your description.
An experience that felt deeply internal rather than external. A secret one had to guard closely. A secret one keeps even from one’s own conscious mind at times because the implications are too jarring.
Maybe I could have felt giddy if I wasn’t simultaneously obsessed with morally correct behaviour?
Have seen one or two girls act giddy around me. **Oh. So that’s what THAT might mean…**
“I am NOT the Mother of the group.”
I stand corrected. Hipster only-slightly-older sister. 🙂
You HAVE spread your conversational net far and wide, though…
“I think beautiful people belong to the world.”
That’s a thought worthy of a public intellectual such as Gore Vidal.
Some male interviewer attempted to explain to Vivien Leigh once what makes a female movie star a female movie star. He was saying it was the “look of yearning” in the woman’s eyes when she gazes at the male hero. Viven Leigh disagreed. She opined true movie stars captivated men, women, children – the whole cast and the whole audience, in fact – with their charisma. The charism isn’t directed at a particular demographic. A charming answer to a snide question.
“I think we can go lower. Shawty got low, low, low … 🙂”
No, I don’t think I can go any lower. My bad back is already killing me… 🤣
“(Although I have aged a year while reading some of them. 🙂 Ha! I had to get that one in!)”
Commiserations! I have aged a year NOT reading Snow’s responses in case she accidentally says something that hurts my feelings. (Sorry, Snow! And yes, I am “thin-skinned”, for want of a better word, although I hide my “extreme sensitivity to criticism” well). 🙂
“How could I not love someone who quotes Camille Paglia?!”
The lady is a character for sure. 😜
Sammy,
“That line is fantastic – just fantastic. I can only imagine the barely-disguised quiver of disappointment in her voice as she says it. 🙂”
Betty White initially auditioned for the part of Blanche. Maybe producers thought she’d be good. She’d already played the floozy in The Mary Tyler Moore Show.
” A secret one had to guard closely. A secret one keeps even from one’s own conscious mind at times because the implications are too jarring.”
I hope I guard mine feelings closely. When I wrote I felt giddy, I’m don’t mean that I’m giggling and obvious (at least I hope not). It’s just how I feel internally.
Do you like silent movies? If you watch the classic “Flesh and the Devil,” movie star John Gilbert was considered the “great lover.” He was really good at playing a woman’s effect on him (in this case a young Greta Garbo). The way he acts in that movie is how I feel: overwhelmed.
“Maybe I could have felt giddy if I wasn’t simultaneously obsessed with morally correct behaviour?”
I was cured of that disease in my early 20s. 🙂
So how do you know you’re attracted to someone? Do you feel something internally?
“I stand corrected. Hipster only-slightly-older sister. 🙂”
STOP attaching the word “older” to me. I hate it. 🙂
“That’s a thought worthy of a public intellectual such as Gore Vidal.”
Wow. Another great compliment. The man was wit extraordinaire. A modern-day Oscar Wilde.
“Viven Leigh disagreed. She opined true movie stars captivated men, women, children – the whole cast and the whole audience, in fact – with their charisma. The charism isn’t directed at a particular demographic. ”
She’s right. Big stars appeal to everyone, on many different levels.
” My bad back is already killing me… 🤣”
We’ll get you some pain pills. 🙂
“The lady is a character for sure. 😜”
She wrote an essay in response to the MeToo movement. She liked the female solidarity in the movement. But she hated the pink hats. She thought they looked tacky. She wrote, “I want dignity and authority for women. My code is Amazonism. I want weapons.” 🙂
Marcia,
Ann-Margret was good in a lot of things.
I first remembere her from “Viva Las Vegas” with Elvis in 1964. It was one of the many Elvis movies my mother dragged me to.
Side note: The movie has one of the few songs where the limerent and LO sing a duet. https://youtu.be/_fTiGRljqDk?feature=shared
I saw “Carnal Knowledge” at college in the late 70s. Ann-Margret was really triggering for me. She reminded me so much of my mother.
Oddly, the character I came to dislike most was Art Garfunkle’s character. At the end of the movie, he really rubbed me the wrong way, kind of like Walter White at the end of”Breaking Bad.”
I think Ann-Margret and Tina Louise gave birth to my affinity for redheads. “Gilligan’s Island” came out the same year.
I wouldn’t encounter a live redhead for at least another 5 years.
LE,
“Side note: The movie has one of the few songs where the limerent and LO sing a duet. https://youtu.be/_fTiGRljqDk?feature=shared”
I forgot she also sang and danced. I think of her as a dramatic actress.
“I saw “Carnal Knowledge” at college in the late 70s. Ann-Margret was really triggering for me. She reminded me so much of my mother.”
It’s been a while since I’ve seen it, but if I remember correctly she’s a woman whose identity is wrapped around a man.
“Oddly, the character I came to dislike most was Art Garfunkle’s character. At the end of the movie, he really rubbed me the wrong way”
From what I remember, the Jack Nicholson character was the worst. He needed but hated women.
” kind of like Walter White at the end of”Breaking Bad.””
Walter White is a god. 🙂 I love that character. The show is so well-written and so well-acted that you are rooting for him. Like you root for Tony Soprano. Another great show. They’re both anti-heroes, and you grow to hate their families because they are bringing Walter and Tony down!
“I think Ann-Margret and Tina Louise gave birth to my affinity for redheads. “Gilligan’s Island” came out the same year.”
Tina Louise was just imitating Marilyn Monroe. I think your fascination is misplaced; it should be with blondes. 🙂
Marcia,
In CK, everybody knows Jack Nicholson is a jerk from the get go. Garfunkle you learn to hate over time. Same with Walter White. I felt sorry for him at first but by the end of the series, I think I would have shot him myself. Tony Soprano you can’t help but like. I loved Lorraine Bracco in the series. Maybe that’s why I got along so well with LO #4, a PsyD.
Blondes are wonderful!
The first tarot card reading ever done for me at a college party foresaw me with a blonde haired, blue eyed woman.
LO #1 and my wife are blue eyed blondes.
LE,
“Garfunkle you learn to hate over time.”
I’ll have to watch the movie again. The two great masterpieces from director Mike Nichols: CK and The Graduate. Was there anybody sexier and more stylish than Anne Bancroft?
” I loved Lorraine Bracco in the series.”
Me, too. The most interesting relationship/dynamic is with her and James Gandolfini. I was disappointed that she and Tony didn’t get together. At least once. For an extended throw down. 🙂
“LO #1 and my wife are blue eyed blondes.”
Just wanted to make sure you’re giving other hair colors equal opportunity. 🙂
@Sammy
“Commiserations! I have aged a year NOT reading Snow’s responses in case she accidentally says something that hurts my feelings. (Sorry, Snow! And yes, I am “thin-skinned”, for want of a better word, although I hide my “extreme sensitivity to criticism” well). 🙂“
Ha! Snow knows that she owes you several replies, but she’s caught in a storm right now after the dramatic event… you’ll have to wait a real summer’s day maybe in her COO….
The truth is that she didn’t know how to respond sensitively and sensibly to some of your the way “off-edge” (confusing, misunderstandings, annoying… ) messages, so frustrated that she just paused a few half-scribbled ramblings… She was told “if you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing…” then a day or a week later, those ramblings looked meaningless or nonsense…
You have toughened your “arch-rival” to a more thickened-skin Stoic, so perhaps she’s paying her training dues in return…. 🪙 👻
“What advice might you have for your younger selves…?
Young Nisor: you did what you did with the knowledge you had then. You made a few mistakes along the way, but you didn’t know any better; and for that I forgive you. You were strong, courageous, naive and a dreamer, I commend you for that, and I’m proud of you .
Now, we have to reconcile the past with the present and move forwards; with the new gained knowledge and experiences we will do great. Don’t you ever stop dreaming!
Dear Nisor,
Thank you for your wise words.
It’s an ongoing practice for me to reconnect to and show kindness to my younger, gauche self.
Mila
Thank you for your wise response; all very carefully noted.
I really hope that you will feel better soon and good luck with the abstinence.
Me, I drank some wine and I ate a whole packet of rice cakes. I am not proud of myself. Tomorrow is another day.
Take care,
f
Frederico,
what do you eat instead of pasta, rice, bread? Or do you still eat it? I‘m a bit at a loss how to substitute it. Family food is based on pasta and bread🙈I would make myself an alternative but cannot think of much.
Is dark chocolate allowed?😅
The main idea is to eat less, which I don’t think is difficult, especially if you stay hydrated. I have reduced the carbs considerably and I only eat whole grain rice, in smaller quantities than before. Wholemeal bread but only two slices daily instead of four. I don’t eat pasta.
If you have a sweet tooth, dark chocolate in moderation is ok, apparently.
My doctor said that cutting out, or cutting down on, alcohol would be an “easy win”. I have failed at that, because I always find some excuse, so I have not yet made very much progress.
Apologies to other punters. This is somewhat off topic, I know.
f
Thanks frederico!
(by the way, my ramblings about anger were not pointed at you, only at myself!)
I don’t think I should eat much less since I shouldn’t lose more than two kilos, otherwise I’d get to the lower limit.
Also, alcohol isn’t the problem here.
Well, I think it would be much easier to change to healthier food if my family would like it..
Maybe it would be enough to cut out the sweets and bakery stuff.
It’s a bit related to limerence because I seem to crave sweet stuff whenever I cut down on limerence. Two ends of a see-saw, and maybe I‘ll manage to jump down from the see-saw altogether this time.
Mila
Oh no, on the contrary, your comments about limerent anger are very helpful – perhaps to others as well as me.
Yes, I think your diet issues are different to mine. It could be that reducing sweets and bakery stuff will be your “easy win”.
I do remember about your craving for sweet things when you are challenged by limerence. Maybe “all things in moderation” is the way to go? Healthy snacks, crudités? (Yuk!)
f
Had to google „crudités“!
Actually, that’s something I like, especially when somebody else does the slicing and cutting…
„All things in moderation“ sounds boring, I confess.
I‘m quite strung out today, will go to bed, sleep apparently one of the important pillars of something. Health, probably.
Good night frederico!
Thanks for the advice!
Hi f and Mila,
Dr Michael Mosley has been such an inspiration to me and so many others on his advice regarding diet and healthy living. I have his books and follow his latest updates.
So it has affected me deeply that his sudden death was announced today. It seems he fell on a cliff walk.
In his spirit and memory please allow me to share some of his views. He said to have less processed food and have natural products that are high protein / high fibre. Think when we were cavemen/cavewomen what we would be eating. Nuts, seeds, berries, meat, lots of green stuff. So less bread, pasta or starchy carbs. Don’t buy ‘low-fat’ as these are processed and typically higher in sugar/ carbs that our bodies will convert to fat anyway and don’t satisfy our appetite so we just eat more again later. So for example he would say eat full-fat greek yogurt as it’s natural, high in protein and satisfies your appetite for longer. Also he advocated intermittent fasting which helped me lose weight.
I hope this helps just one person in his memory 💚
Imho, thanks!
Sorry to hear that Dr Mosley had this terrible accident.
I don’t use low-fat anyway, don’t believe it helps- as you say, less nutrients, less taste.
As to intermittent fasting, I‘ve been told by some hormone specialist that while it works perfectly for men, women should be careful with it because of the hormone cycle (don’t ask me any details).
Since I’m at the age where hormones start to mess around anyway, I don’t want to mess them up further, so I‘ll skip that one.
Thanks for the advice, hope you are well, Imho! Still dreamy?
“My doctor said that cutting out, cutting down on, alcohol would be an “easy win””
I try not to say generalizations like that. My cardiologist does the same to me. “Do you drink alcohol?” “Yeah” “How much?” “Too much.” “Well don’t do that it’s unhealthy!” Like no $hit Sherlock who doesn’t know that in the 21st century? Yeah it is easy for ME to eat fairly healthy and avoid sweets. But it’s not that way for a lot of people the same way that many can’t understand why I can’t have just a drink or two. Why does it have to be half a handle of vodka? So I am with you in this my friend. I’ve done better and I have done worse when it comes to alcohol. I am always here for you Frederico.
Words of Wisdom for my younger self? None. Probably a big hug or two. It is the journey from young to old that has created the knowledge and wisdom of today, and tomorrow will bring some more, I’m sure. Just as I write this, I suddenly thought that ’pain is necessary and needed to grow’… and that the pain experienced has indeed been necessary for my growth. Ouch.
That includes Limerence. Still there, the longing. But has changed character, more of a smouldering than a blazing fire.
Young Goose,
Be very careful about letting things slip in your primary relationship, because your need for love, connection, and desire will rear its head in an unexpected way that will rock your world, your partner’s world and generally put you into a living hell of longing and pain that you can only wait to rub its course. You will put a lot of energy into controlling it, but it is like trying to control a force of Nature.
You won’t believe this but your longing will one day burn itself out and cease. You will be free again. Make decisive actions and take hard concrete steps that will feel like torture, but ther are essential for you to take mastery over your life.
To myself exactly one year ago almost to the day I would say:
– Stay away from the curious glimmer, ignore the way he looks at you, the intensity in his eyes, the way he finds excuses to touch you. They mean nothing to him and everything to you.
– Do not waste your precious energy and tender heart on a man who does not know how to give. He will take until you are sick and empty.
– Somehow, no matter what he does, he is always the victim. Do not believe it, it is he who is using you up.
– You cannot “fix” him. He is who he his, and who he is is not for you.
– He is not love.
– He is not yours, nor does he want to be.
– Run.
To myself today I say:
– You have your answer: it’s time to be done. Set it down, turn around, walk away.
– This does not mean you’re giving up on love, or yourself, or your happiness. Quite the opposite. To find love you must walk away from this. This was not love.
– Stop fighting for someone who is incapable of fighting for you. You deserve so much better.
– Love yourself, forgive yourself, be patient with yourself. You deserve these things, never again waste them on a man who at every turn turned and ran.
“I know it feels like she is the most amazing person that could ever exist, but actually you’ll meet several other women who will make you feel the same way.”
The problem is when you meet this person that makes you feel this way after you have met the woman that actually IS the woman that makes you feel this way in a genuine way.
“Once it’s clear that it’s not going to work with someone new, move on fast. Limbo might feel romantic and comfortable, but it wastes precious time.”
Limbo, even before marriage has always been a lure for me. I’d rather sit in limbo than say goodbye. I hate goodbyes.
“The redhead is trouble.”
For me, statistically yes. Momma and LO are both redheads.
“You can’t rescue everyone, and it isn’t your place to try.”
Damn Dr L that was a kick in the ____. But if I don’t try, who will? I’m suppose to expect some other man to do it? I can’t make that wager. If she needs someone in her corner than that’s where I will try to be. I know, I know. It’s sexist and [insert whatever other adjective you want] but I guess I can’t distinguish it from chivalry. I’m a tiredly old fashioned old man.
“Treat the glimmer as a lighthouse – good for navigation but also a warning that there are rocks below the waves.”
This is very good advice that I would have profited from if I had seen it that way at the beginning of it all. It feels like starring into a star but really it is a warning sign that you are about to crash. And oh God did I crash on the rocks.
“Limerence is exciting, but long-term love nourishes your soul.”
Very exciting. But bringing that excited back between the two of us (Momma) is very nourishing. I stayed up too late last night talking to Momma. Just talking. Still learning about this woman after nearly 25 years. Way more exciting than infatuation.
“Take heart, you do figure things out eventually.”
Yeah after almost loosing my marriage and the respect of my sons’ …. I guess they have decided to stay. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. Lesson learned. Pick yourself up. Don’t make the same mistake twice. Which ironically is what, or at least to my recollection, some of what Momma and I talked about some last night; Lady Friend. But I think this time she trusts me. Which is way more than I deserve.
Dear young Lee,
For every moment of bliss caused by your interactions with your LO, you will pay dearly later on. It is not for free, it is not a gift from heaven. Every second of “happiness” will mean burning tears and chest pain sleepless nights. You keep this crazy fire burning at your own expense.
The world is huge. The world can be beautiful if you make it so, if you can open your eyes to see. Do not narrow your world and your chances at happiness to this one person.
He is special, yes, but he is not that special. He does not “love” you the way you think. He does not think about you all the time the way you obsess about him. Real reality is different from the “reality” in your head.
There are no twin flames, there are no soulmates. Or if there are, soulmates are those you can touch and reach out to. Soulmates are those people who want to hear you and talk to you. Soulmates do not leave you staring at an empty inbox.
I know it sounds cruel and it feels like it’s crushing you very soul, but: forget him. forget him. forget him. Simply fill your time and your hands with something else. The mind will follow. He will gradually disappear from your mind and one day you will be free from this hell.
Yes, he is a friend and yes, he is a good man but no, he is not your Best Friend and no, he is not blessing your life. Being in touch with him is hurting you. Run away, run away.
I am here to tell you that I blocked him, at last (what an incredible thing to type!), I deleted all the messages in the chat. Enough of all that nonsense. Yes, it can be done. I did it and I’m free. The chest pain is gone.
I can live without him in my life.
I can be happy without him.
I am free.
Hi Lee, thank you for sharing this. It would have taken me a whole week to prose such an articulate post.
It is wonderful.
And it really speaks to me personally quite a lot too with my LE.
I am glad you feel free after stopping/blocking future contact with your now post- LE. That was brave and inspiring!
Best wishes
Yes, indeed, imho, what a stunning post. It is one of those rare compelling pieces of writing that makes you want to read it over and over again.
Thank you for sharing it, Lee.
Thanks Lee!
Some eternal truths for limerents here:
„ He is special, yes, but he is not that special. He does not “love” you the way you think. He does not think about you all the time the way you obsess about him. Real reality is different from the “reality” in your head.“
I love that. It’s exactly what I „discovered“ to be the truth, and try to tell myself all the time.
I was watching a youtube video of an interview with Jordan Peterson and he said something that immediately struck me about limerence. Obviously it can be applied to addictions general but it spoke to me about my recovery in limerence.
“Redemption is a matter of individual determination.”
Makes sense.
I read somewhere that heresy isn’t a matter of the mind, heresy is a matter of the will.
However…some people are beyond redemption. Nothing that they can ever say or do will let you trust them again. It’s not worth the risk.
If the people you care about allow you to redeem yourself, be grateful. They don’t have to forgive you.
Here’s an interesting article on redemption and forgiveness. https://strengthtoforgive.com/redemption-vs-forgiveness/
Thanks LE, for that simple but informative article..
Good food for thought..
Arrived at COO safely but exhausted after skipped 30 hours of sleeps to handle necessary, timely matters…very jet legged! When the brain is broiled with exhaustion and heat, thoughts or feelings could hardly exist, let alone limerence.
Still, I’m feeling so much light-weighted as if one has unloaded a lift-time burden, what a relief… now there is more room inside for new growth…
I meant feeling so light-weighted after the disclosure last wee — no more the heavy stone of “secrecy”!
Can’t tell you how much settled I’ve been feeling. By doing it to LO who could listen to it with “objectivity” (have little idea what he felt/feels — he only said he was glad that I was able to discuss the issue that I’ve wanted to for long), I’ve changed him from a LO to an actual person, still largely unknown, which is okay.
That mysterious, addictive longing for an idealized “object” seems to have gone… the question only remains whether or how a distance, superficial friendship could be carried out or maintained… Right this moment, I have no brain left to worry about it….
Hi ❄️🦃🔥
Sounds like an exhausting journey ! Yet the long journey also brings that lovely feeling of unburdening and release in this hopefully tail-end of the LE chapter in your book.
I followed your hallway sighting story and subsequent disclosure to an understanding and intelligent LO. I found it quite moving.
It must be a strange but also a peaceful feeling when the brain is empty and no longer whirring.
Time to switch on to where you are and enjoy your trip and people, food, culture etc.
IMHO,
“It must be a strange but also a peaceful feeling when the brain is empty and no longer whirring.“
Yes, it’s a bit surreal to think about what happened last week, it was like a dream, truly a dream that one cannot dwell on for long. Then, this geographical travel even yanks one’s mind more out of my “habitual” LE rumination and feelings… I know the fact but could feel little now… a week passed seems to have been a month or longer…
My present realistic issues and frustration caused by the bureaucracy or technology has brought me further out of my previous LE mode…
I’ve been doing much better to stay “here and now” observing local culture and people — always enjoyed people watching, and only got online during the deadly night (still jet legged).
How are you doing with your LE situation now that the summer is in full swing? Hope everything is cool with the imagination trick you talked with MIla.
🫂
Snow hi,
I hope you have a nice stay at COO, and enjoy it superbly! You deserve it.
I was away and have to catch up with LwL messages . Will be going away again to an Ionian island next week . I hope summer s extreme heat erases all traces of LOs for everyone…
To all limerents: have a great summer !
Thank you, Nisor.
WiFi connection here is extremely poor, and I can’t get on line during daytime here, except the dead night like now.
Had to do some personal business and met with the unbelievable bureaucracy… very frustrating. My mind is certainly taken out of things left in the US…
Tomorrow I’ll go to my hometown, and hopefully my time there with old pals would be better. It will be around 18-25 C over there… I need it!
Hope you enjoy your Ionian Island getaway trip, you deserve it!! A vacation away with different sights, or even hustling bureaucracy, will certainly push LO into distance…
🫂
Snow,
I‘m happy for you! Fantasy and phantoms may be inspiring but only so far, and isn’t the reality much more delicious. I‘m glad you turned your LO into an actual person.
I wish you good luck and health on your trip, take care.
Mila,
Agree with you!
However our new reality with our LOs will still be affected by a long distance, which can breed fantasy or imagination again if any forms of communication keeps going, since there will be no reality check anymore — no more chitchat, tea/coffee sharing, office party, etc… unless only holiday greetings exchanges are left… then we all become a “history” to each other… Life moves forward…
I’ll try to keep my voice alive (always lost half of it in one day due to speaking too much) for the next 8 days for an intense reunion time, chatting up with over 100 old “boarding school” classmates, and travel with 35 in a group for 3 days for another resort of the nature…
I wish you a good luck for the remaining summer (still more encounters with LO and his SO, right?)
🫂
@Snowphoenix.
So, Snowphoenix my dear, now that you’ve got all your personal rubbish sorted out, are you going to say sorry to me for treating me so abominably over the past twelve months when I consistently showed you nothing but grace and kindness and courtesy and an almost superhuman level of patience? 😁
A sincere apology from you would go a long way to repairing our damaged relationship. Also, a sincere apology from you would go a long way toward restoring your own tarnished reputation – a reputation you yourself trashed by behaving so appallingly in a public space. I know how important it is for you to always look good and act superior to other people. Here’s a golden opportunity for you to do the thing that you do best i.e. look good & act superior… 🤣🤣🤣
I’ll accept a sincere apology from you – no further questions asked. A simple “I’m sorry” will suffice. Such an apology is long overdue. Please and thank you. 😜
If you are serious about growing as a human being, here’s a friendly suggestion: how about denying yourself, just once, the pleasure of always having the last word? Go on – try it. I bet you can’t do it- not even as a crazy social experiment. I bet you can’t let someone else have the last word. But to be a genuinely healthy human being, you must evolve to a point where you can sometimes let others be in the right – even if they’re plainly not in the right, according to your own ludicrously self-righteous point of view. Humility is strength, my dear, and not weakness. 😉
Miss Lovisa
Momma is wearing a tank top amd shorts and no socks. I love summer. 😉
Whistle whistle!
This isn’t strictly time-travel wisdom, but this is the coffee house and it might help someone.
I wanted to write about something that many might confuse with limerence. A recent poster or two have talked about how they often encounter potential “LO material”. If these posters are women 40+ I think you should consider that this might not be strictly related to “limerent tendencies” but due to the incredible increase in libido that hits some women in this age. Of course when your libido surges you will naturally look around for potential mates – that is just biology. I know this phenomenon might be hard to believe – it was for me – because most of the literature about premenopause talks about decrease in libido! Maybe this has to do with the male bias in research, as male andropause undeniably decreases libido.
I had a slightly older friend warn me about this. She said that she had a good relationship but she suddenly got these strong desires for others. She couldn’t understand it until she went to the doctor. If I understood her right – and I will have to go back to her to make sure I did! – she got hormone therapy (for this, in conjunction with other issues, I’m sure!) and after that she was happy. It was quite a strange story for me to hear. But now in my 40s I’m starting to understand a little bit of it.
And my point here is not to suggest hormone therapy as a cure! But I just wanted to highlight how extreme it can be for some.
Currently I am out of limerence but I realize that I am inflicted with this other issue, and I’m constantly noticing attractive men. That is a completely different issue from being at risk for limerence however – I control whether I let myself go to that place of obsessing over someone. I can’t even imagine it now! And for that I am happy.
Trifles,
I had the same surge in libido in my 40s as well. I think it’s fairly common.
And the other thing is … male and female desire are attuned to each other. You’re probably putting out all kind of vibes without realizing it, and they’re being picked up on.
Now, once you hit the menopause years, the opposite happens. You feel like a blob and men don’t notice you.
So my advice to my younger self (or any younger woman) … take advantage of it! 🙂 If you’re a single woman … you can have a lot of fun. 🙂 If you’re not, you can still enjoy the attention. As long as you don’t slide off into another LE.
But this is your time. Don’t waste it. 🙂
“And the other thing is … male and female desire are attuned to each other. You’re probably putting out all kind of vibes without realizing it, and they’re being picked up on.”
A-ha! So is that why men have been acting strangely shy around me recently? I thought I’ve just happened to come across cute, shy guys recently. Coworkers, handymen, etc. But that would explain it… 🙈
And that’s a good reminder to enjoy yourself / the attention / just life in general. I already feel like I am too old but I suppose that’s how we feel at any age, even in our twenties…
Trifles,
“A-ha! So is that why men have been acting strangely shy around me recently? I thought I’ve just happened to come across cute, shy guys recently. Coworkers, handymen, etc. But that would explain it… 🙈”
The female undercarriage is on fire in the 40s. 🙂
It goes off into the freezer in your 50s … but that’s another conversation. 🙂 Personally, I have no interest in learning what happens to it after that. I’m good. 🙂
But Marcia, I‘m interested, slowly approaching 50:)
Does it really go off into the freezer? Never come out again??
Mila,
“Does it really go off into the freezer? Never come out again??”
I guess it depends on your symptoms. Some women sail through menopause; some don’t. But it also changes your perception of who you are.
Mine sure hasn’t gone into the freezer at 50. Not even with hormone therapy for some perimenopausal issues I’m having. Unfortunately it’s at odds with what’s happening with the SO…..
Serial,
“Mine sure hasn’t gone into the freezer at 50. ”
At 53, mine is frozen and it’s hard to get my head around trying to thaw it out in front of someone new.
Interesting stuff. People talk way too little about that. Marcia, you know the saying „use it or lose it“?I read somewhere that that applies to libido too. It could wake up again once you meet a someone new.
I‘m at the beginning of the perimenopausal stuff and can see what you mean by changing your perception of what you are. I feel that I really should change this perception to cope with the coming years.
Serial limerent, I didn’t really get it, what’s happening with SO?
Mila,
“People talk way too little about that. Marcia, you know the saying „use it or lose it“? I read somewhere that that applies to libido too. It could wake up again once you meet a someone new.”
I can’t remember the last time someone flirted with me.
“I‘m at the beginning of the perimenopausal stuff and can see what you mean by changing your perception of what you are. I feel that I really should change this perception to cope with the coming years.”
I see nothing to recommend this time of life. I wont lie.
Things not working like they used to…loss of interest.
And mine didn’t do anything but ramp up year after year since my mid 30’s. 23 year old me; sex or video games; video games. 47 year old me; sex? Yes please. Ask Momma she can tell you the infamous Final Fantasy 7 tale of how choose it over her. *Hangs his head in shame*
Adam,
I can relate.
True story:
Back in the spring of 1979, I was the AP of LO #1. She was a local and told me that she was going home for the weekend.
I went and played Dungeons & Dragons with the guys. We had just started an adventure when LO #1 cruised in wearing a halter top and cutoff shorts. She was 5’8″ of Tall Skinny Blonde (TSB). She zeroed out all the geeks in the room.
I asked what she was doing here since she said that she was going home. She replied that she got bored and came back. She said that we should go back to my place and have a drink.
I told her that we’d just started the adventure and I was the only mage. I asked her to come back in an hour. After all, she said she was going home. Women make up 51% of the population, but a good D&D game is tough to find.
She bent over, stuck her face ~3 inches from mine and said, “I’ll make it worth your while.”
Without missing a beat, the game master said, “L.E. awakes from a dream at the inn…Get out of here.”
I did and she did.
Marcia,
that sounds bleak. Won’t you go on about gained wisdom and maturity of spirit?;)
Now I‘m scared!
Well, we‘ll see, it’s anyway inevitable. I plan on getting a healthier lifestyle anyway with the blood sugar scare etc.
Everybody says sports helps with perimenopause, I‘ll give it a try…
Sorry to hear that, Serial limerent. Things not working like they used to, yeah, we also have a bit of that problem. Paired with a surge of hormones on the female side that can be very frustrating…
Now we need one of the oldies to come out and say “L.E, you have some new stories left in you yet!” If I say it, you’ll find out how much of the old blogs and comments I’ve read.
I love how cool and focused the other(!) D&D geek is in the story. Are you sure this isn’t a scene from Big Bang theory?
Hi all,
I am posting an article that I found to be useful, and in my case, true, about the nature of desire
https://www.theguardian.com/wellness/2024/jan/26/desire-myths-relationships
It has to be cultivated, basically. I think that this is even more true in middle age, for both sexes. In particular I found the point about anticipation very useful. With a new partner or with someone we develop an obsession about, there is all this delicious anticipation. Thats what we need to cultivate in our long term relationships. Much as Adam seems to be doing. I dont want to speak out of turn for folks who may not be partnered-up as I know it potentially just annoying. But maybe the same thing applies for people who are single (get back in touch with your own body. Ideally use that to cultivate a receptive mindset again – if that is something you think you are missing in your life).
Mid life is so tricky. But personally, i am going with “when I am 80, I will look back on this time of life and wonder why I didnt grab it more”
Best wishes to all.
Trifles,
Maybe TBBT was inspired by us. I played with a really eclectic group. Two guys were PhD candidates.
One of my friends told me that he swung by and looked in on us.
He said after seeing that group, the nicest thing he could do for humanity was lock the door and set the building on fire.
I started playing as a sophomore and met LO #1 as a 5th year senior. I remember wondering why I was hanging out with those guys instead of being out trying to get laid.
@Bewitched,
I know that I’m not limerent for Lady Friend but I still put on some “smell good” before work every day. So when I get into her car later, she has something pleasant to remember me by.
Which I hope she anticipates in getting to work early again the very next day.. Lol.. 😁🤣
L.E.
I like that story. I guess it is lucky for us some gals like the geeks. I never got into D&D but I play video games and collect comic books so I am very much a geek.
I came home from church Sunday, and took our youngest to the store and took him back home. Then drove to our oldest’s son and ate lunch and spent part of the afternoon with him before I came home. Usually I take my second dose of antiarrhythmic pill at around noon. I forgot so I got home at like 4pm and my heart was racing and my BP was up. Once I finally figured out I forgot, I went and took it. I am laying on the bed trying to get my heart back in rhythm. Momma is telling me exercises to do to help. She’s in a tank top, nice short shorts and hair up in a ponytail, and I go “okay I am all good, wanna close the door?” *wink wink* And she looks at me shaking her head. 🙂
My response always is “if I die of a heart attack, I can’t think of a better way to go”. To which she always responds “I am not telling your mother that’s how you died.”
Mila,
“Won’t you go on about gained wisdom and maturity of spirit?;)”
No. I’d rather be young and stupid. 🙂
Bewitched,
“But maybe the same thing applies for people who are single (get back in touch with your own body. Ideally use that to cultivate a receptive mindset again – if that is something you think you are missing in your life).”
It has nothing to do with any of this. Pull up the sketch “Last F***able Day” from the “Inside Amy Schumer” show. It’s with her, Patricia Arquette, Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Tina Fey. They’re talking about getting roles in Hollywood, but the metaphor applies.
The world of geeks and D&D is what I’m familiar with. I kept getting my boyfriends from there, and married one. 🙂 There’s all kinds of people in the groups, though, not just guys with no girlfriends. That’s a stereotype.
Marcia,
“ No. I’d rather be young and stupid. 🙂”
I spend a lot of time with my younger colleagues and have to say I don’t envy them. From my perspective they are all insanely beautiful and free and should enjoy it, but they fret about relationships, career, weight, whatever. It’s a pity. I do think I’m more at peace than them.
But then, menopause hasn’t hit me yet. You really scared me there, Marcia😂🙈
Mila,
” From my perspective they are all insanely beautiful and free and should enjoy it, but they fret about relationships, career, weight, whatever. It’s a pity.”
Well, that’s true … you don’t even know what you have when you have it.
” I do think I’m more at peace than them.”
I’d trade peace for youth. 🙂
“But then, menopause hasn’t hit me yet. You really scared me there, Marcia😂🙈”
I’m not sure what you’re referring to. The physical symptoms or being a “woman of a certain age.”
Hi Marcia,
both! I‘m a bit scared of both.
Mila,
“both! I‘m a bit scared of both.”
In terms of what to expect with symptoms, I’d talk to your mom or maybe an older sister if you have one. Are you not already experiencing peri-menopause symptoms? Tbh, those can be bad.
In terms of being treated as a “woman of a certain age,” I sensed a shift starting in my mid- to late 40s.
It all happened at the same time. It was a lot of fun. 🙂
Hi Marcia,
my mother cannot remember much but had some kind of hormonal treatment, but then she had an operation that messed everything up anyway.
I‘ve got older colleagues who say it’s tough.
I’ve got some symptoms, but nothing severe yet.
I hate taking hormones but am prepared to take them if it gets too worse. Did you?
Getting older must be hard on everyone but it seems that it’s harder for women with all the hormonal stuff and apparently getting invisible for some men. Unfair.
“apparently getting invisible for some men.”
Mila
With LO being 10 plus years younger than me I don’t have much room to squirm. That said, I’d like to share a short story from last night. I was watching a movie and Momma asks me to put her phone on the charger (on my side of the bed). She got several notifications so I took it off the charger and handed it to her and they were messages from the same guy on a social media platform. She hands it back to me to plug it in and as I am the same dude sends another message. I smiled and in a sing-song voice said “Momma your boyfriend is messaging you again.” (Ironically also going by Adam for a handle.) She says “haha” while smiling and taking her phone. While it was very much tongue and cheek after my transgression I still worry there’s some younger and more virile guy out there that can outdo me and grab her attention.
I think aging is a mix of gaining confidence in yourself but at the same time fearing that you are easily replaceable. It is an irrational fear that maybe we all have when it comes to being able to please the person we care about in the ways that we need to. My personal fear is financial support. I often feel inadequate compared to others men in our lives.
Hi Mila,
“but then she had an operation that messed everything up anyway.”
I’m sorry to hear that. That doesn’t sound good.
“I hate taking hormones but am prepared to take them if it gets too worse. Did you?”
Yes, briefly.
As I’ve written, I have some friends who have sailed right through it. I guess only some women get punished. 🙂
“Getting older must be hard on everyone but it seems that it’s harder for women with all the hormonal stuff and apparently getting invisible for some men. ”
In my experience, it’s pretty much all men. I mean new guys you might meet. If you have a long-term buddy at work who’s a little flirtatious with you, your flirty rapport with him won’t change. But if a new guy starts at your job or you go into Starhell in the morning to get a coffee … no one flirts with you.
Hi Marcia,
she got her uterus removed which leads to menopause anyway, but it was a very long ago and she‘s absolutely fine.
I just hope I’m one of these sailing women 🙈..
And I know what you mean with the guy at Starbucks etc.
It’s very superficial but I‘ll miss these looks on the streets and the easy attention one gets from men when young.
I discovered relatively late that I‘m quite attractive , being a very shy teen, and I will miss that. Not that I think elder women aren’t attractive, I mean the shallow attention of men for younger women.
I try to get into a mindset where that’s not that relevant anymore, while not yet at the totally invisible state…
Mila,
“Not that I think elder women aren’t attractive, I mean the shallow attention of men for younger women.”
Please don’t describe me as “elder.” 🙂
I agree with everything you wrote.
Do you remember being a teenager and watching the Grammy Awards, for example, or the American Music Awards and the snore fest you felt when the older acts came out? Do I really have to sit through the Rolling Stones? Where the heck is Michael Jackson?
That’s what it feels like. Only you’re the Rolling Stones. Your relevancy has passed. Of course, now, people would be waiting for … who ? Drake? Kendrick Lamar? Sabrina Carptenter?
Marcia,
haha, is „elder“ not a good word? I thought it’s the right grammar. Sorry.
„ Drake? Kendrick Lamar? Sabrina Carptenter?“
Who the heck are these people?😂
Having kids in their teens I get a good sense of how old me and my tastes are.
(But I’ve never watched the MTV awards anyway. )
I even start sentences with „in my time“ etc.
Mila,
“haha, is „elder“ not a good word? I thought it’s the right grammar. Sorry.”
I don’t like anything that refers to my age. I’d rather be called “ho” than “elder.” 🙂 Or “ho” than “mam.” “Ho” means you’re still in the game. 🙂
“Who the heck are these people?😂”
I try to keep up with current pop culture, to an extent. I couldn’t do a deep-dive analysis, but I could hold my own in a general conversation.
“But I’ve never watched the MTV awards anyway. ”
The Grammys and the American Music Awards were on regular TV. Still are.
“I even start sentences with „in my time“ etc.”
You gotta stop doing that! 🙂
I’ll admit the first time one of my son’s college friends called me “sir” it was a bit weird. But then our youngest son didn’t call me “dad” until he was much older. When he was young, from learning to talk till about his teens, he called me by my first name.
I don’t mind my actual age being pointed out. In fact most of my self depreciating humor is about my age. When I went to visit our oldest son this past Sunday, we went and ate lunch where one of his roommates works, and being they both, within days, will be 21 in August I told them we should go for drinks. I told his friend, don’t let my age fool you, if anyone is gonna need help out of the bar it will be one of you two, cause I can hold my liquor. 🙂
Drake and Kendrick are rappers. Not sure about the gal. Doubt she has any relation to THE Carpenters. My father’s favorite singers.
I was talking to Lady Friend one night and telling her one of my favorite things to do when I get home from work is watch tv, eat a piece of cheesecake and fall asleep in my chair.. I thought about what I just said and then said to her, “that really kinda makes me sound f@&$!n old doesn’t it?” She laughed and said “yeah it kinda does.”
I gotta stop talking like that.. 🤣
Adam,
“Not sure about the gal.”
You have to stop using the word “gal.” No one has used it since 1963. It’s like the word “pocketbook” or “davenport.” 🙂
” Doubt she has any relation to THE Carpenters.”
Ah, no.
“My father’s favorite singers.”
Exactly. Your FATHER’S favorite singers! 🙂 One of the biggest things that will give away your age is your references. Also, good lighting. 🙂
Adam JUNE 18, 2024 AT 5:19 PM
Delightful. I am sometimes fascinated by the differences between use of words. I have always had the impression, mostly from American tv, I guess, that “Sir” is used a lot to address men in the U.S.
The Carpenters. Now you’re talking. I bought “The Singles” LP in the early seventies. Happy days before there was a sniff of limerence, I think.
@Marcia,
“You have to stop using the word “gal.” No one has used it since 1963. It’s like the word “pocketbook” or “davenport.” 🙂”
Lmfao 🤣🤣🤣
Give Adam a break, lol.
At least he didn’t refer to the microwave as the “Radar Range”
@Mila: “Elder” usually refers to, say, 70 or 80+. Retirees. We’re not quite that old yet. 🙂
My perimenopause has been a mixed bag so far. I don’t want to go into full details here; let’s just say that my experience has been different from my mother’s. There was a form of precancer found. I had hoped to do without hormone therapy, but then I had to go on it to get rid of this problem. It’s working slowly but it is working. Other than that, I’d been dealing with wacky periods but nothing else. Instead of weight gain, I’ve lost weight. No hot flashes. Maybe a couple of lines starting to deepen, but no wrinkles, not even crow’s feet. I thought I was just about to hit menopause and sail through it when the precancer made its presence known. But hopefully with the hormone therapy, things will go back to normal soon. As for attention from men–I don’t expect it from 20-somethings. Older men still flirt with me, though, lol.
My gosh, anything poppy has made my skin crawl since sometime in the 90s or 00’s. I don’t watch any of the music award shows because I wouldn’t know any of the artists. My tastes are more underground (Goth/Industrial), metal, older alternative, stuff like that. I’d be shocked if any music shows had, say, Covenant or Project Pitchfork, for example. 🙂
MJ,
“At least he didn’t refer to the microwave as the “Radar Range””
Yeah, but right now he’s watching his Beta tapes and relearning how to break dance. 🙂
@Marcia,
“Yeah, but right now he’s watching his Beta tapes and relearning how to break dance. 🙂”
Now that I gotta see..
🤣🤣
MJ,
“Now that I gotta see…”
He’s watching “Breakin’ 2: Electric Boogaloo.” 🙂
If ya’ll must know I use to break dance back in the 80’s. But my body wouldn’t allow it now. It’s like lifting heavy stuff or sex positions; if my back says no it says it very loudly.
@Adam: Or even exercise positions. So many work fine for me, but then one comes up and I try it and I’m like Nope. Maybe it would’ve worked when I was 20 or 30….
It’s all good Adam. I used to attempt break dancing as well but I wasn’t coordinated enough. Go figure..
Now as long as you’re still not trying to fit into your old Parachute Pants, lmao. 🤣
MJ,
“Now as long as you’re still not trying to fit into your old Parachute Pants, lmao. 🤣”
He’s 2 Legit 2 Quit ! 🙂
Serial Limerent,
“Older men still flirt with me, though, lol.”
So … guys in their 30s?
“‘Older men still flirt with me, though, lol.’
So … guys in their 30s?”
Marcia, I’ve been told that your target group should be guys in their (early) 30s. Apparently that’s the group that contacts women in their 50s on dating apps. They’re afraid of women their age who want the whole cow instead of just the milk. (Was that an icky metaphor? I meant that they just want babies)
Try it out and prove me wrong! 😉
Adam,
If ya’ll must know I use to break dance back in the 80’s. But my body wouldn’t allow it now. ”
Get it together. We’re piling on the Limerent Bus and coming to your house in 2 weeks to see your breakdancing show. And we’re all limerents. So we have BIG expectations! 🙂 Your dance tune will be Herbie Hancock’s “Rockit.”
Trifles,
“They’re afraid of women their age who want the whole cow instead of just the milk. (Was that an icky metaphor? I meant that they just want babies)”
I’m all for icky metaphors. 🙂 But what happens when they do want the whole cow? They’re probably fine short term.
No I never got on the parachute pants fad wagon. But when you sample Rick James’ music you’re gonna have a hit.
Marcia that’s fine, I can make an attempt. I ain’t gonna promise a good show though. But you get what you pay for. 🙂
20-30 something men with their eye on 40 plus women … well since I have been there, done that …. the assumption of 20 something me was that older women had their $hit together. No drama. They knew what they wanted and weren’t afraid to take it. Both in and out of the bedroom. They had experience and were not afraid to show you. Girls are a mess, just like young men. Still trying to figure things out, not sure what to do when the door closes. All kinds of things that young people are coming into that are just unappealing and tiresome. Myself included. I didn’t know what I wanted and went down many different roads trying to figure it out. And some of those roads were quite ….. “rocky”.
Adam,
“I ain’t gonna promise a good show though. But you get what you pay for. 🙂”
Fair enough. It’s free. But I do expect snacks and beverages to be provided. 🙂
“not sure what to do when the door closes.”
Well, in terms of the female side of this, I don’t know if that just applies to young men. Tbh. As a woman … you sometimes feel you have to do a lot. At least the first time.
And then … even making your interest known can sometimes feel like you’re waving a red flag.
“I didn’t know what I wanted and went down many different roads trying to figure it out. And some of those roads were quite ….. “rocky”.”
That’s exactly my point. When you do figure it out … it won’t be with the older woman. Like I wrote … it’s short term. The younger man is looking for an experience. Or experience. Which older women have. But it’s a weird duality, because you know you aren’t what you once were physically, which robs you of some of the confidence. It’s a weird time in life.
“We’re piling on the Limerent Bus and coming to your house in 2 weeks to see your breakdancing show.”
I just can’t wait to hear all the crazy conversations we’ll be having along the way. The stories that we’ll talk about. It’s going to be a limerence overload..
@Marcia
“So … guys in their 30s?”
I was actually thinking guys in middle age and up, but the younger ones don’t seem to mind when I get a little flirty with them, lol. (My flirting is more smiling and teasing, not the aggressive stuff. 🙂 )
“But it’s a weird duality, because you know you aren’t what you once were physically, which robs you of some of the confidence.”
Marcia
If I get what you are saying….when you are young you have the physical vigor sexually but not the confidence to wield it with confidence. But when you get older you loose some of the vigor to age but gain the sexual confidence of life experience. If so I wholeheartedly agree with you. It’s why you got 40-50 men having a midlife crisis and chasing other women (if they are married) or just women in general. It’s a cruel joke God/evolution plays on us.
In my particular case I wanted a direct lesson in the bedroom. I didn’t care to learn the how and why indirectly because I didn’t have the confidence to approach girls my age. I just assumed a woman 40-50 would have that experience they could teach me. So my way out of just chatting up an older woman for said lessons was I paid to get them from a mistress.
“It’s a weird time in life.”
That is very much the truth. Wouldn’t want to go back to that even if I had a time machine.
I appreciate this thread! Thanks for being so candid, everyone! The menopause information has been especially helpful. I want to share something about attracting the opposite sex when you are older.
My mom is in her late seventies. We moved her to an assisted living center near my home last month. She called me recently about something that happened with one of the men at the care center. “[Lovisa], you told me to tell you if something weird happened. That man who eats dinner with me sent me a text. Is that bad? Should I talk to him?” I replied, “Yes, you should talk to him. He seems nice and I think he just wants to be your friend.” Another time she had a single rose in her room that had been thrown to her at the end of a performance by one of the male residents. It made her day.
I don’t think we ever stop appreciating attention from the opposite sex. I think that as long as we are open to it, there will always be nice men like Adam (and many of our other LwL men) who shower the ladies with chivalry. Hopefully the opposite is true for the men. Hopefully there will always be kindhearted women who receive chivalrous gestures with gratitude.
I hope that makes sense.
One more thing. My mom was in her mid-fifties when she married my late step-dad. He was a good man. Good relationships CAN form after menopause.
Adam,
“If I get what you are saying….when you are young you have the physical vigor sexually but not the confidence to wield it with confidence. But when you get older you loose some of the vigor to age but gain the sexual confidence of life experience. ”
I wasn’t talking about vigor. You just look better when you’re younger. It’d be nicer to have the confidence when you were at your physical peak.
“I didn’t care to learn the how and why indirectly because I didn’t have the confidence to approach girls my age.”
That makes me feel worse. That makes me feel like older women are on the “B” team.
“So my way out of just chatting up an older woman for said lessons was I paid to get them from a mistress.”
I’m not sure what you mean. I don’t have any interest in being chatted up by a younger guy so he can get training. If he likes me and wants to hang out with me, that’s something different. But, honestly, I’d prefer to be with someone who already had some training.
Serial Limerent,
“I was actually thinking guys in middle age and up, but the younger ones don’t seem to mind when I get a little flirty with them, lol. (My flirting is more smiling and teasing, not the aggressive stuff. 🙂 )”
Oh, ok. Yeah, I have a teasing rapport with some of my male co-workers. But I don’t really consider that flirting. I don’t feel any sexual energy there.
MJ,
” I just can’t wait to hear all the crazy conversations we’ll be having along the way. The stories that we’ll talk about. It’s going to be a limerence overload.”
No, no. We’d have fun. I’m picturing a scene where we rent a loud, big, ugly RV. We blast ’80s music from it and show up wearing matching T-shirts. Again, loud. Maybe tie-dye.
And then we show up to Adam’s house and look like a bunch of freaks. 🙂
Marcia,
I like the matching t-shirts-idea. It’s time for Dr.L to sell some merchandise!
T-shirts, caps, water bottles with „Closure is an illusion“ or „Team Dr L“ printed on. L shaped pasta.
Mila,
“I like the matching t-shirts-idea. It’s time for Dr.L to sell some merchandise!”
Yes, but if we’re giving him ideas, we get a cut of the profits. 🙂
“T-shirts, caps, water bottles with „Closure is an illusion“ or „Team Dr L“ printed on. L shaped pasta.”
These are all good ideas. Or how about, “I haven’t emailed my LO in 24 hours. Winning!”? Or “I’m in NC.” Or “LC is a bitch.” 🙂
Songs of the Thread:
“We Are Young” – Fun. (2011)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv6dMFF_yts
“Tonight
We are young
So let’s set the world on fire
We can burn brighter than the sun…
“The angels never arrived
But I can hear the choir
So will someone come and carry me home?”
I really like this song. It makes me wistful.
“The Fire Down Below” – Bob Seeger (1976)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wRMd15R1mI
“When it all gets too heavy
That’s when they come and go
With only one thing in common
They got the fire down below”
One of my favorite Bob Seeger songs.
Another one:
“As Good As I Once Was” – Toby Keith (2005)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldQrapQ4d0Y
This was the anthem of my 50th birthday in 2006. Sadly, nearly 20 years later, it’s no longer true. I blame exposure to ionizing radiation.
I have to say I’m quite surprised with the turns this thread has taken and proud for starting it. I’m glad it’s still passed Dr L’s moderation!
As a European I’d never heard of Toby Keith before, but completely enjoyed the video – and the message of the song fits the thread perfectly.
And I think I’ll go for a “Plausible deniability” t-shirt. That works for a lot of things!
Trifles,
“I have to say I’m quite surprised with the turns this thread has taken and proud for starting it. ”
You did. It’s been a good discussion.
“And I think I’ll go for a “Plausible deniability” t-shirt. That works for a lot of things!”
Sorry. Hate it. I think that’s what my LO was doing. IMO, if you’re going to do it … own it.
Fun is a great song. Momma introduced me to it back when it was out. Have no idea wtf is going on in that video though lol. But then music videos are not my thing unless they are telling the story of the song like Elton John’s Sacrifice. Random things like this video meh Perhaps NOT growing up with MTV or VH1 is why.
Marcia, that’s true – we don’t want to enable attention seeking LO’s. I’ll settle for one of those “I haven’t texted my LO in 24 hours. Winning!” t-shirts. (Had to update to texting from emailing – does someone still do that?)
And can we get frederico one that says: “Step away from the greeting cards”?
Trifles
“I’ll settle for one of those “I haven’t texted my LO in 24 hours. Winning!” t-shirts. (Had to update to texting from emailing – does someone still do that?)”
Just overly verbose old people like me. 🙂 But you’re right.
“And can we get frederico one that says: “Step away from the greeting cards”?”
Love it!
I think I’ll go for „LC is a bitch“🙈because I cannot claim to not having texted in the last 24 hours.
Or just a T shirt with all your nicks.
Trifles,
Idly scrolling through this thread, I was just thinking about Adam’s intriguing post when I came across yours and I nearly lost my cup of tea.
“And can we get frederico one that says: “Step away from the greeting cards”?”
I thought that was very funny, especially as I have today once more been resisting the urge to buy LO fortieth birthday card with gold lettering. I won’t. He probably wouldn’t think “Oh, how delightful”, although he might. He would more likely think “Oh, good grief, he remembered”.
I think we should add a shirt to the merch. collection that says,
“I’ll stop looking at you, when you stop looking at me!”
This would be for all those crazy LOs that provide us with such warm but confusing eye contact. 🤣
“…especially as I have today once more been resisting the urge to buy LO fortieth birthday card with gold lettering. I won’t.”
Frederico, oh no… 🙈 There always seems to be an occasion for a greeting card!
I’m glad you like the t-shirt idea.
And lol, MJ’s idea is spot on – I imagine a lot of us on the bus wearing that shirt! Won’t that be a ‘sight’… We’re nothing if not self-depreciating.
I still e-mail. I have too much to write about to put into those little texts. 🙂 (Plus I can send them in the middle of the night.) Still new to texting….
Trifles,
Ah yes, I’d better explain lest I bore everyone to oblivion.
Cards, lovely cards, I have realised, are now my limerence line of least resistance. LO’s family’s birthdays have passed this year without my succumbing to temptation. LO’s 40th is something which I had been looking forward to marking for a while because he may have forgotten telling me his age.
Anyway, despite all that totally self-indulgent limerent stuff, I mustn’t do anything. Today it dawned on me, with a slight thud, that he and his LO could regard it as mild stalking. Imagine that!
Christmas, however, will be another day. I’ve gone six months without any contact, however, and part of me is annoyed with him anyway.
Yes, I too like MJ’s idea for a t shirt message. I think it should have a personalised logo of the “two vile cats” underneath.
🐈⬛🐈⬛
The thing is, all these themed shirts, with individual strap lines, are going to cost a fortune but I guess that Marcia and Mila, as the architects of the scheme, will deal with the finances.
I am very much looking forward to sitting on Adam’s veranda, swinging on the bench seat, drinking his vodka and meeting Momma.
Miss Lovisa (I think we may now have a clue from Adam as to exactly why she is known as MISS Lovisa) may turn up in her running gear having completed the rim of The Grand Canyon.
f
Frederico
Here’s something to try. I worked really well with the young lady that replaced LO when she left. Shortly before she quit last year before Christmas she told me she was getting married. Her and her gentleman friend had been together for 4 years and decided to get married in October of this year. One of the young ladies that works here now is friends with her. So I decided to distract myself of the urge to do send a card to LO by sending them a wedding card and small gift to congratulate them for their marriage. She’ll probably be surprised I remembered when she told me the date last year.
My self depriciating t-shirt would be “Everyone Plays the Fool” on the front with a picture of the 45 below it. And on the back the lyrics, as a constant reminder to me.
“And your ability to reason is swept away
Oh-oh-oh, heaven on earth is all you see
You’re out of touch with reality”
No worries Mila and Marcia I’ll foot the bill for my own shirt. Or maybe I can fit it all on the back of a waistcoat? :thinking:
You can have all the vodka you want Frederico but you will never get my secrets from me 🙂 (Unless I have too much vodka.)
Oh and so as not to sound inhospitable everyone that does drink and does drink beer I have your choice of Chimay or Samuel Smith’s Oatmeal Stout; two of my favorite beers. For those that don’t drink I will make sure to have a wide variety of non-alcoholic drinks.
Also L.E. from your previous post above about Bob Segar; we all know that “Mainstreet” is clearly his best song. To which Momma always says “only you would like a song about falling in love with a stripper” 🙂
Mainstreet — Bob Seger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TABYYQmUiwY
Frederico,
“The thing is, all these themed shirts, with individual strap lines, are going to cost a fortune but I guess that Marcia and Mila, as the architects of the scheme, will deal with the finances.”
We can all get the same tie dye shirt off of Amazon. Then each individual limerent can type out their motto/saying/theme onto some computer copy paper and safety pin it to his/her shirt.
We going for cheap here. And a little tacky. 🙂
I think mine will be: Don’t start something you’re aren’t going to finish.
Correction: Don’t start something you know damn well you’re not going to finish.
🙂
Frederico, Actually the thing that made me realize that I was in fact limerent (even though I didn’t know the word for it) in both my LE’s – was when I saw myself sending stuff* to these poor men. *Underwear catalogues as an inside joke to the first poor guy – don’t ask… 🙈 And the thoughtful personalized gift to the second one. I knew that was not right and that it bordered on stalkerish.
Unfortunately(?) both claimed to be very pleased with my ideas. But to me, I knew I was crossing a line, but just couldn’t help myself even while doing it!
I’m also looking forward to sampling Adam’s vodka collection. Hopefully it does not come spurting out while we watch the show! And yes… Now I too am connecting the dots with why he likes to call everyone ‘miss’…
Trifles
Thanks. That’s a reality check and funny as well.
Marcia
Yes, I get it. Wise words as always.
I’ve just realised that I’m commenting after a whisky which is not a good idea. I’ll stop now. No offence intended to anyone!
f
@Trifles, thanks for sharing so openly. what is it about gifts eh?!
I love getting thoughtful personal gifts for people I like.
Hence, I give far too much thought to wonderful gift ideas for LO.
Some are meaningful yet low cost, these are the best.
Largely, they will never come to pass. So we need to redirect the gifting project!
Imho, I thought this thread was for oversharing? 😆And what I wouldn’t do to keep f from sending those darn greeting cards! And like MJ so nicely put it, if any LO recognizes themselves here, we’re going for “horrified and flattered”.
I think that when we get to know all these lovely details about our LO’s, we like to let them know that we’ve noticed. (I’m talking about LO2 here. Any straight man would enjoy lingerie catalogues!) So I suppose that’s why we send gifts. Even though I was compelled to send LO2 a thoughtful gift, it was important to me that it didn’t cost much. That would send the “wrong” message – like I wasn’t already on the wrong side of wrong in my mind…
Yes Trifles, try to play the gift thing down to make it more appropriate.
“Ive had a declutter and found this old thing and thought you may find it useful. But if not, it can go to charity”
In reality it took you 6 months to scour the earth to find it !
My advice to anyone who doesn’t know their LOs birthday is to not ask or find it out ( if possible)
In my case, I found out LOs bday by accident. Because it was posted on a company bulletin board. Ironically LO has the same bday as me. Which is Feb. 14, Valentines Day. How’s that for a great birthday surprise?
🎂🥳🥰
You have no idea how finding that out about her last year, just amped up so many more warm and fuzzy LO feelings. I so wanted to send her flowers along with a pretty heart necklace, to her office next door. I never did though and I’m glad I didn’t because it probably would have just weirded her out so much more.
“I think that when we get to know all these lovely details about our LO’s, we like to let them know that we’ve noticed.”
I was always the quiet one sitting around the break room with everyone else eating lunch. One day, months after LO said it, my boss was going to buy us all lunch and asked LO what she wanted to drink. I go …
“Dr. Pepper. Doesn’t anyone ever listen?”
“Adam you remember that?”
“If you said it, I remember it.”
The smile on her face. I do pride myself on a good memory in general (at least when you tell me something sober) as I do listen a lot more than I speak. Though you couldn’t tell from here as much as I post lol But a text post I am much more braver doing than speaking up in a conversation.
Teased her about her favorite drink from her favorite coffee shop when I bought it for her the first time. White chocolate frappe.
“LO is that a mile shake or coffee?” As I drink my black coffee.
“You wanna try it?”
“No LO I don’t want to get diabetes.” with a smile.
“I don’t even remember when I mentioned I liked this.”
“I do.”
Wow, you are all so dreamy about your LOs at the moment!
I don’t want that. I met LO a few days ago, and the second we saw each other, we were both just simply very glad. Or that’s what I felt. Nice evening, and nice goodbye, he drove me home etc. Two warm texts exchanged, and now he got cool.
In the meantime I have developed a kind of barrier, I immediately get behind it and doesn’t let it hurt me. But also immediately I’m back to resentment, something that doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the real person LO, but with the texting LO.
Don’t know what to make of it and am tired of it.
So I won’t spend any energy and just let everything go as it wants. I am anyway swamped with work and guests and whatnot.
Adam,
Seeger did seem to have thing for songs about sex workers.
I have to disagree with you about “Mainstreet.”
I like so many of his other songs so much better.
“We’ve Got Tonight” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1rPjCgAyIs
This song reminds me of when I started dating LO #2. At the time, the relationship seemed to hold no promise.
“Still The Same” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr3v3011LhQ
This song is oddly linked to an aerobics instructor from LA who I made a run at before meeting LO #2. I ended up investing in her aerobics studio. It failed and I got her engagement ring as payout. The diamond became my wife’s engagement ring.
“Hollywood Nights” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaxyHOMs-iQ
This song also makes me kind of wistful. I wonder what that kind of relationship feels like. Something I’ll never know.
“Against The Wind” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vRsEC65NTA
Maybe the most appropriate song on this thread for a lot of people.
He did a lot of great stuff. For me, “Mainstream” doesn’t make the top 10.
Adam,
Don’t be surprised that your LO remembers that you remember. It can have a hugely powerful effect on people. It means you listen to them and heard them. What they said or did mattered to you.
After week broke up, LO #2 was telling me all the things she missed about me. She said the one of the things was the candy I’d buy her. She liked a particular candy, penuche fudge half-dipped in chocolate. You could only buy it at the candy counters of major department stores (try finding one of those today). When I was near one, I’d buy a box of 4, two for her, two for me. She said that they made her feel special. I asked why since it was only a few pieces of candy.
She said, “They made me feel special because I knew that wherever you were and whatever you were doing, for those few minutes, you were thinking about me.”
A whole lot of points for two pieces of candy.
If I were ever to attempt to re-engage LO #2, I’d start by sending her a box of those.
When I was dating my wife, I made her an Easter basket of candy and perfume. I put clues in hollow Easter eggs. I paid the waitress, bartender and hostess to play along.
When the waitress brought the drinks, the note inside said to talk to the bartender. The bartender gave her an egg that said to talk to the hostess. The hostess gave her an egg that said to look behind the passenger seat. The Easter basket was there.
35 years later, the Easter basket is still on the shelf of her closet. She says that she’ll never get rid of it.
L.E.
I don’t know why Mainstreet stands out so much for me. It’s like I know Rolling Stones catalog is huge but nothing will ever top Beast of Burden for me.
I knew all that you posted, but I did have to take a listen at Hollywood Nights as I didn’t recognize it by the title but once I heard it I remembered it. We’ve Got Tonight is really up there right under of equal to Mainstreet for me. Really great romantic song. And yeah I’ll never hear Against the Wind the same now after this.
I like Turn the Page as well. Though I may get thrashed for it, I prefer Metallica’s cover of it. I don’t dislike Seger’s, just like Metallica’s a bit better.
Though Momma’s joking comment about liking Mainstreet makes me think it’s probably a good thing I have never been in a strip club. If the stereotype is true that a lot of lost and lonely souls end up in that line of work, me and my rescue complex have no business there.
Marcia I will try to explain what I mean. My father was absent a lot, not from abandoning, but rather the opposite by providing for us no matter what and putting time and energy into the church congregation. That left my mother the most prominent in my life as well as the (endorsed by my father) the absolute authority in raising us. Thus my female authority issues followed me into adulthood and into my view of sex.
Since I saw women as authority figures, I carried that into the dynamic between a man and woman in sexual encounters as well. Thus seeing the mistress as she is paid to do such things. (Or whatever you want her to.) Which surprisingly helped me find a bit more of a balance between dominate actions and traits with women in general and in the bedroom as well. I would thank her if I ever saw her again. Because I could now have balanced, yet fun and healthy relationships thanks to her “therapy”.
Hope that helps you understand better what I said.
Adam,
“Thus seeing the mistress as she is paid to do such things.”
Thanks for explaining it more. It was the opposite for me. My father was a passive man. Taking on the role of trainer/teacher/authoritarian doesn’t really appeal to me. I can take on an assertive/aggressive role in the beginning, but after a while, I wanted to guy to step up. I actually liked it when the guy was the assertive one. At least initially.
I’m still not sure what you mean. You paid a sex worker? Or you had an affair and had a mistress? And another outdated word, by the way. I’d use affair partner.
Yes Marcia, a sex worker or dominatrix more accurately as I wasn’t after sex itself.
That being said I put Momma in the same position my father put my mother in, raising our boys almost solely. And being the absolute authority with our sons. I’ve become much more assertive as I have gotten older than when I was young. Momma would get angry at me because I wouldn’t argue or debate. Now getting older I can stand up to my fear of confrontation and confront the argument or debate.
Adam,
“Yes Marcia, a sex worker or dominatrix more accurately as I wasn’t after sex itself.”
Can I ask … what do they do? Yell at you? And if so, how does that help you be better at confrontation? I’m not good at confrontation, either.
“And if so, how does that help you be better at confrontation?”
While ours was a monetary transaction, even in most dominant/submissive (dom/sub) relationships in the wild both are meeting each others needs. One has no more power than the other. In the role playing aspect of it, sure the dom asserts the power. But without the sub the dom has no purpose.
Realizing the exchange of power that comes with a dom/sub relationship helped me have more confidence to assert myself. One of the parts of role playing between a dom/sub is either the sub quietly takes “it” or taunts the dom for more punishment. When I got to that point in the relationship I realized I had as much power as mistress did. That finally carried over into my everyday life. And while I was still quite amenable there were some situations I was able to face easier than before. I went from meek to “know when to pick your fight”. Some confrontations just had to be faced.
Hope that helps Marcia. This is my fifth and final draft. I went from trying to be too lengthy to too short, to realizing some people have no idea how this works outside of media. And that media never gets it right. I’m looking at you 50 Shades of Gray, you damn lie you.
Adam,
“I went from meek to “know when to pick your fight”. Some confrontations just had to be faced.”
Yeah, I agree. And that is knowledge that comes with age. You don’t have to discuss everything, but there are topics you can’t avoid.
“Hope that helps Marcia. … I went from trying to be too lengthy to too short, to realizing some people have no idea how this works outside of media. And that media never gets it right. I’m looking at you 50 Shades of Gray, you damn lie you.”
Thank for explaining it. Yes, my ideas of dom/sub come from that terrible movie, which I thought was actually a comedy it was so silly!
I can see why the basic idea of dom/sub would be sexy to people, but not in the way it’s been presented in popular culture.
As long as we’re posting song links….
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IsvfofcIE1Q
Depeche Mode–Master and Servant
I thought about Rammstein’s Bueck Dich, too, but it might be too dark for the conversation, lol…
Serial Limerent,
Nine Inch Nails ….
Head like a hole
Black as your soul
I’d rather die than give you control
Bow down before the one you serve
You’re going to get what you deserve
YES!!! 🙂
…Also the Devo cover 😉
Serial Limerent,
I just listened to the Devo cover. I didn’t even know there was one. I like it, but it of course doesn’t compare to the original.
“I’d rather die than give you control”
We were talking about this feeling with the context of dom/sub relationships. I haven’t personally felt this way for a romantic partner, but I have for a boss or corporation I worked for!
Adam,
I’ve never watched “50 Shades of Gray” all the way through.
However…
In the late 70s, I read an excerpt in Playboy from “9 1/2 Weeks” by Elizabeth McNeil. It’s intense. It was made into a movie in 1986. It starred Kim Basinger and Mickey Rourke. It was a meh movie but the soundtrack was dynamite. LO #2 borrowed it and recorded it on cassette.
The best song from it is “Slave to Love” by Bryan Ferry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkKKLFjSxbc
“The storm is breaking
Or so it seems
We´re too young to reason
Too grown up to dream”
I was playing it in the car one day with LO #2. She was singing along with it. It sounded slightly off. I asked what she was singing. She said, “Safe to Love.” I wonder what she was getting out of the song.
Shari Schreiber said, “… for the one who needs the least is always the one in power.” https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
Power is an interesting subject. Most people don’t understand it, let alone know how to effectively wield it. https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/power-and-influence/202103/the-10-sources-power-and-how-anyone-can-use-them
Control is the exercise of power. LO #2 sat across the table from me and said, “I can’t control you.” When I asked why her mother never learned to drive, LO #2 said, “She’d lose what little control she had over my father.” LO #2 understood power and control. I was just better at it than she was.
Whether it’s the bedroom or the boardroom, the dynamics are the same.
L.E.
How much ever or little you’ve watched of it you are not missing anything. It’s a very gross misrepresentation. But then she never wrote the book to be accurate. It was meant to tantalize sexually unfulfilled women not a documentary on the sub/dom relationship. No more than pornography is any representation of what sex and a sexual relationship really is.
Never seen 9 1/2 Weeks. From what I read about it, it’s a movie that maintains what it can to not exceed a R rating so it can get a theatrical release and make money.
I think the song Slave to Love is mistitled. At least from the observation of the clips from the video you linked and the lyrics. I think it should be more appropriately titled Slave to Validation.
“… for the one who needs the least is always the one in power.”
Funny enough all the women but one that I dated before getting married all needed nothing from me. They were their own woman. LO was the same. Lady Friend is the same. It is a common thing that I have noticed looking more into myself after this limerence. Maybe it’s more my anxious attachment issues. I latch on to women that can leave at anytime with no collateral damage, while it completely destroys me and I go right to the bottle since the very first one broke my heart.
But I didn’t with Momma. She is more dependent on me than any other woman that I have had romantic interest in. Granted she has gotten way more assertive and adventurous than when we first got together. She used to be extremely anxious in public. She has made a lot of growth. But when I came to her about separation in the throws of limerence I realized that she would have little if not any place to go if I took that route. Both her sisters live out of state and I wouldn’t separate her from our sons like that. I may have had the power but I wasn’t going to use it against her.
All that aside, coming out on the other end, I realize that really now she holds the power. Because our recovery for what I did is on her time schedule. I have to relinquish what power I did have until we come to a healthy compromise on what the rest of our relationship is going to be for each other. I realized once the limerence high subsided that if she hadn’t choose to stay I would have been the most damaged. Like the song goes “only miss the sun when it starts to snow”.
“Whether it’s the bedroom or the boardroom, the dynamics are the same.”
Well in the bedroom she can have it all. That I will give all to her. 🙂
LE,
“Whether it’s the bedroom or the boardroom, the dynamics are the same.”
What do you mean by “boardroom”? A job? Because … he who has the gold has the power. It’s the employer. You can leave the job and go to another job, but the dynamics are the same — the employer has all the power.
In the bedroom, it’s different. Who has the power depends on the dynamics of the relationship. And it can change over time. And if you’re a person who keeps getting into relationships where you would prefer different levels of power, you can learn to become more powerful (or less, I guess). Or you can opt out of having a relationship entirely.
But you don’t have that option with a job. You need a job to live.
Adam,
9-1/2 weeks was a mediocre movie, at best. I know it left out some of the more intense parts of the book to get it in theaters. However, the soundtrack is one of the best of any movie I’ve seen.
“You Can Leave Your Hat On” – Joe Cocker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfgwrdYUQ2A
Watching the video, this looks like the band was having fun.
At the time the movie came out, my wife could have been Kim Basinger’s shorter sister.
“The Best Is Yet To Come” – Luba
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIByf37K_bo
This was LO #2’s favorite song from the album. She really identified with it.
Marcia,
I stand by my post.
Different types of power apply in different contexts. You may or may not be able to wield power and influence in any given situation but the dynamics would remain the same. People who can’t wield power and influence in a given context may become Passive-Aggressive in that context, like fighting a guerilla war.
LO #2 tried to wield coercive power and reward power in the form of sex. It was pretty much the only knife in her drawer. She had all the sophistication of a high school junior. And, she was very Passive-Aggressive.
Unfortunately for her, I understood power, control, and influence much better than she did. She overestimated her worth. What she based her power on was obtainable elsewhere. After we broke up and she said that I was still her best friend, I told her that I wasn’t because there was nothing in that for me.
If you’re going to play the power game, in any context, you should learn to play it well.
LE,
“I stand by my post.”
And I stand by mine. You have ZERO power in a job.
Sure, you can be passive-aggressive. But they’ll eventually get rid of you and find someone who will jump through their hoops.
Any time you are beholden to anyone else for money, you don’t have power (and that includes the government for social security, a company for a pension, a spouse or family for inheritance — all those things can be changed).
Power struggles are toxic in relationships.
SL,
“Power struggles are toxic in relationships.”
Very toxic.
After reading my history of the relationship with LO #2, my friend, a LCSW who knew LO #2 when we dating, said that the relationship was abusive. My reply was that I knew that I could be difficult but I never realized that I was abusive.
My friend said that she wasn’t talking about me and that I was lucky that she didn’t marry me.
Miss Lovisa
Why can’t I save Momma from the trauma of her sexual assault? Why can’t I save Lady Friend from the trauma from her abusive ex? Why can’t I save LO from the trauma of her cheating ex? Why can’t I do anything right?
Our oldest is having relationship problems with his lady friend. He doesn’t give me many details when he talks about it. But why does he seek my advice after what I’ve done? I feel so burdened but at the same time useless.
@Adam,
You didn’t ask me, but I’ll reply anyway.. Haven’t you already more or less saved Momma by marrying her, being there for her and loving her all the more because of your limerence? Haven’t you already shown your level of care for another human being, by listening and having empathy for Lady Friends abusive past relationship? The same applying to LO and her situation?
I think as Husbands (and ex Husbands like me) and as Fathers, who go out of their way to do loving and kind things for others, we are always wishing we could do more, or do it better. No matter how hard I try, and give my Daughter all the love and support I can muster, she will not meet me for a one on one lunch or dinner, so her or I can begin a process of healing and just talk. She always needs her Mother (My ex) or her Brother there for support. In case the conversation gets awkward, because she’d rather not talk about anything with me. Because she knows the angle at which I’m going to come at her and she doesn’t want to approach any real conversations with me about the past and how we can maybe move forward and leave the past in the past. She’s very stubborn and has an Aunt who has talked nothing but shit about me to her, for years. At this point, about all I can do is let her have her way, try to support her efforts as she goes off to College, tell her I love her and pray to Almighty God. In time believing she will eventually come around.
Lady Friend tells me she has problems sleeping because she has anxiety issues. I never ask for details, but have a feeling it’s over her last relationship, that I’m not all that sure was so great. She has been very vague with me about it, so it’s probably none of my business. I wait for her and tell her I’m available to be a listening ear, whenever she is ready. I am always telling her that. I give this Woman the floor at work. I walk a country mile across the plant, just to get her ice so she stays cool. I bring her fresh fruit. Always checking in on her throughout the night, just to show her she matters. I like to think my actions, by being available, are what make the difference. Do I ever feel like it’s not good enough? Of course I do. My past speaks for itself. It’s what I try to do now and do to the best of my abilities because I’ll probably never be good enough. If I am present for others though, that is about all I can do. If this is God’s plan, I hope I am following it.
@Adam you are not useless. You are just flawed like the rest of us. We are all here because of our flawed limerent minds that believe certain people we like are perfect, when they are infact far from perfect. Just rest easy, knowing you are in good company. I hope this helps.
In solidarity 🤜🏻🤛🏻
MJ and Lovisa <3 he has saved me many times over. The hurdles we’ve had to overcome just in our first 10 years alone might have broken other couples to pieces.
I return the favor by *telling* him he was going to the ER last night after face planting on a sidewalk. He was like a 5 year old, seriously pouting and asking me how come I was making him go, so I treated him like one…. I told him I didn’t give an F if he hated me, I had to make sure he was ok with no brain bleeds because of his blood thinners. And our youngest (OMG—he’s almost 18!!!) was with him when he face planted and though he remained calm on the outside, as soon as I got to them he let the panic out. I’m pretty sure he’d be dead 5 times over because he’s a stubborn person.
He doesn’t believe that he did save me, even though I know he has, just simply by letting me know in 500 different ways that I am safe with him. I dont believe in re-dos…. Because everything that happened is a part of my journey that gives me 3 of my most cherished people.
Thank you for giving him perspective, he knows i dont say things just for the sake of words, but y’all make him believe them.
A
@DammitHardison,
Hello, it’s Nice to hear from you again. Sounds like Adam is kind of a hot mess this weekend.
Please tell him to get well and that MJ and the LwL Community are thinking of him. Glad you and your Son were there to help.
Is he OK?
I assume from your post that the answer is he is but I’ll ask anyway.
Hi DammitHardison aka Momma,
Yikes, that sounds scary. I’m sorry you guys went through that scare. Sounds like you handled it well. I hope everyone is doing okay. Thanks for sharing.
Skinned nose, knuckles, shoulder, busted lip and chipped tooth aside I am okay L.E.
Momma told me this Saturday afternoon after we got back from hospital….
Among other things the doctor asked if I was under the influence of anything. I told him I had been drinking that’s why I was walking and not driving. He asked how much? And I said apparently enough that I forgot how to walk. He says that’s not healthy for your heart. And Momma said I told him yeah I know my cardiologist tells me every time I see him. 🙂
Dammit I lost 40lbs, continue to try and eat healthy and have gave up smoking. You ain’t taking my drink. Though honestly I did drink too much Saturday. But I did do better Sunday. Momma and I went shopping I didn’t forget how to walk. No face planting in Walmart.
Adam, if someone told me to give up running, I’d be upset. It’s how I regulate my mood. But if it was destroying my body, I would have to at least consider giving it up. I would probably take up cycling or swimming. No wait… aerobics and hiking. I love aerobics and hiking. Come to think of it, I should do more aerobics and hiking. Thanks for the reminder.
If you gave up alcohol, how would you replace it? What does life look like without alcohol?
I’m glad you’re okay *Lovisa says while giving Adam a great big hug*.
Miss Lovisa
I do wonder sometimes how I might fill that void. This past Saturday was another rude awakening. I had one back in 2006 right before our youngest son (the one that was walking with me) was born. His brother, then 3, tried to wake me up one moring during my wife’s family reunion and couldn’t wake me up.
Upon finally waking up and finding Momma, she said “do you know what woke me up this morning?” I said no. She said “your son thought you were dead because he couldn’t wake you up.” Not one of my finer moments. But it greatly pushed me to do better with my addiction. For the following ten or so years, while I never got 100% sober I greatly improved my habits.
Then in 2019 Momma by her own choice decided to go sober and has been ever since despite still living with my habits. Like I said I did better Sunday. I was up at 7am and decided to go the the 11am Sunday service. Momma was asleep when I got back from the service as she had been up all night by my side making sure I was okay. So I let her sleep more. And then we went to the store. And when we got back made something to eat and then watched something together. I did have some drinks but nothing terribly excessive.
I remember leaving out WHY I fell when people at church asked about my face. One sister without asking about it, asked if she could pray over me. She said she felt compelled to pray over me and asked if I would let her. I told her yes it’s okay.
I think the church is slowly helping me. Saturday was a big stress on my son and wife. Both were concerned with me more than I was myself. This a point that I need to redouble my efforts to do better and work towards something more healthy. I am not going to delude myself sobriety is feasible at this time, but taking better care of myself and looking out for our son and Momma need to be more of a priority.
Adam,
Glad to hear you’re going to be ok.
This one’s for you!
https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-perils-of-drunk-walking/
I have two of the guy’s books. When you walk drunk, you do things like walk on railroad tracks or try to cross 8 lanes of freeway. Bad idea…
“Friends don’t let friends walk drunk!”
They’re worried about your heart? What about your liver?
Welcome back Adam. Glad you are ok..
I’m glad you’re okay, Adam! But I lost one grandfather before I was even born to too much alcohol. The other one drank and smoked cigars until it finally did him in. You don’t want to go like that!
MJ,
I’m sure you’ll be able to repair your relationship with your daughter. None of us are perfect and we can always learn more and know when to speak up and when to shut up. Just this morning, I asked my daughter who is 21 what package she was waiting on from the post office (I was being nosey about what she had bought) and she told me to mind my own business.
And she was right! I don’t need to know what she’s buying with her own money. Her mother probably wouldn’t have asked her that question.
If you’re there for your daughter and even if she’s not appreciating it at the moment and is feeling some resentment towards you. Children, even adult children are hard wired to need/want parents love, approval.
So…I guess sometimes we have to wait things out, be patient, don’t push, but I’m sure daughter will come around and drop anger/resentment.
I come from a large Catholic family, and I don’t have a great relationship with a lot of my siblings. A bit dysfunctional really. I’m not sure that can really change, but I try not to make things worse. I try and use a loving kindness tool with any relatives who get under my skin or who I feel are antagonistic towards me. It I catch myself caught up in resentful thoughts about people, it helps me free myself from that type of thinking.
Most of us aren’t bad people, we’ve got a reservoir of basic goodness within us. Even if we’ve messed up and done stupid things we’re still worthy of love and mercy.
Thank you @Grego. More wise words from you. I’m sure you are right. I have a tendency to be impatient as hell most of the time and I feel like she’s held the grudge long enough.
My family and most of my Ex’s family is Catholic and quite dysfunctional in places. I get along with most of them still but there are a few where loving-kindness just can’t be reality, considering how they have tried to brainwash my own Kid. My Ex knows this too but to keep peace and not snap on my former In-Laws, I just rant to her about it ad-nauseum. Which is also safer for me because I really want to give them a piece of my mind. Although I guess that’s just to make only ME feel better. I know it would solve nothing and only confirm the breach between us. I would probably fare better to be more forgiving like you. Deep down I know you’re right.
It’s difficult.. Too much like work sometimes..
Hence this wonderful world of warm and fuzzy limerence..
You can’t save anyone, Adam. You are just a fellow human, but you CAN ease their burden.
I’ll give you an example. Yesterday, my sister asked in a group text, “Why should I [sister] see a therapist?” Gosh darn it, I fell for her trap and responded with lots of encouragement. I told her that she will feel better and that she will learn skills to strengthen her relationships. Ugh! I wish I hadn’t responded because she spent the rest of the day flinging insults and swear words at me on the group text and on private text. My dad was on the group text and he became increasingly upset with the way my sister was treating me. My dad (he is my sister’s dad too) hasn’t spoken to my sister in almost a year, but yesterday he felt defensive of me and almost said “Stop bullying my daughter!” He realized that if he got involved, my sister would escalate, so for my sake, he stayed off the group text and called me instead. Just hearing his voice express concern for my feelings was enough. He told me that he doesn’t like my sister’s behavior and it’s probably best if I don’t respond. I haven’t responded. I sent two texts yesterday to answer her questions about therapy because I believed they were sincere questions. When she responded with anger and aggression, I realized that I shouldn’t have said anything. She wanted to lash out at someone and since I was the person who responded, she lashed out at me. Anyway, Adam, my dad can’t save me from my sister, but just hearing his voice express concern was enough. You can do helpful things for your family members that will lift their spirits and help them continue to move forward. You won’t be able to fix the big problems, but just being a reliable source of support is helpful. It is so helpful!
As far as your LE is concerned, I don’t think you discredited yourself at all. You were tempted, but you never acted on your feelings. You came through the LE in an honorable way. Of course the rising generation should look to you for guidance.
I hope that helps.
Hi MJ. I hope you’re well.
Hi Lovisa, I’m ok. Not trying to steal your thunder or take over your position as Community Den Mom, lol..
I tried but I can never be as poignant and compassionate as you..
I wanted to add that sometimes trying tell help fix others traumas might just bring a lot of hurt and negativity back again to the wounded person. So while filled with nothing but good intent, we could up hurting someone and traumatizing them all over again. I experienced this scenario with a former girlfriend once. I know Adam means well. Everything you said was a spot-on.
MJ, you had me laughing out loud. Thank you for your kind words, but I thought your response was great.
Your additional comment is so true! One time I really hurt someone when I was trying to be helpful. Great point!
-Miss Lovisa aka Community Den Mother
Miss Lovisa
I agree with MJ you are the Den Mother here.
Your experience with your sister and father helped. I can’t undo the past no matter how much I wish I could. I can’t make up for other men’s bad deeds. I can only be there for the women in my life that I care about that have had to endure these atrocities to their person. I can only reassure them I will always be there for them for whatever they need. But I cannot save them. They are adults with their own agency. I can’t shield them from the world.
Thank you one all for your concerns about my health and my accident. And thank you for the link LE, I did read it. I will do some more research myself. As I have walked many, many, many miles drunk over the years I’ve been alive. Hopefully this accident will be a incentive for me to do better. Be thankful I didn’t get in my truck and drive and it was only myself that got hurt. And I always appreciate that ya’ll confront me about my drinking and are frank and candid with me, as my own parents just want to pretend it is not happening and ignore it.
Adam, did you know that AA meetings are fun? I’ve been to AA, NA and addiction recovery meetings with some friends. I love those meetings! You should check it out.
Adam,
Here’s a link that has the excerpt from “Superfreakenomics:”
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/superfreakonomics-on-drun_n_333490
I get why pedestrians get hit by cars. Cars can go a lot of places. What amazes me is the number of people who get hit by non-light rail trains although if you live in a city with a light rail system, you see a fair number of fatalities on those tracks, too.
True story:
I used to take the Metro to/from work. I worked right across the street from a Metro station and my employer paid for it (your tax dollars at work, or not).
One day I’m standing on the platform talking to a coworker waiting for the northbound train. On the other side of the platform is an attractive young woman in a very short skirt waiting for the southbound train. Trains run every 8-12 minutes except when they don’t. Sometimes, they can pile up and come in every 3-5 minutes.
The southbound train pulled in and the doors opened. As the young woman is about to get on, a young woman already on the train in another car sticks her head out the door and yells for her to get into that car. The young woman starts running, stumbles, and the content of her purse goes flying. One item being a blue credit card which dives between the train and the platform. It’s a pretty small gap between the platform and the train so she beat the odds.
The doors close, the train leaves, and the credit card is between the tracks about 4 feet below the platform. The third rail is electrified and will kill you if the train doesn’t. The young woman starts do a credible version of River Dance.
There was a Metro employee on the platform. The young woman asks what she should do. The platform sign says the next train is 6 minutes out. The Metro employee tells her to jump down on the tracks and get the card. My coworker and I looked at each other.
The young woman came back with, “But, I’m wearing a dress!” The Metro employee shrugs. My coworker and I look at each other again.
Now, the sign says 4 minute. The next train is one stop up the track.
The young woman jumps down onto the tracks and grabs her card. But, she can’t get back on the platform by herself. The Metro employee is just standing there. So, my coworker and I reached down and hauled her onto the platform with a cool 2 minutes to spare.
The young woman got on the next train. I thought about telling the station manager but without the young woman there, I don’t know that it would done any good.
After that, I’m a little more sympathetic as to how you might get hit by a train but not much.
Hello everyone. Has anyone struggled with an empty feeling as your LE was winding down? I’m at a point where I know there is no hope and there shouldn’t be given I have SO and LO does too. I went into this LE grieving a parent and now am grieving the other one and have a major change in my health. So it’s a battle to not want a quick fix to soothe my mind. I know LO is not the answer to any of it. Once uncertainty and hope are gone it doesn’t even work anymore if that makes sense.
Other than a few comments on social media and a reply to a message I initiated, there has been no other contact for 6 months. And I think this is finally goodbye. Something I never truly did or accepted. The series of calls he initiated really threw me for a loop. It confused me and also fueled uncertainty and hope of friendship. Given the relapses that followed I know genuine friendship should be off the table. And really friendship would be an occasional call or text followed by painful relapses, unsettled emotions and guilt.
We can convince ourselves we know there is no hope even though we’re still clinging to a tiny fragment of it. Isn’t that what drives the LE- the need or desire for reciprocation from LO. Like I needed that to finally feel ok and to soothe my grief. Now that it’s finally sinking in, it’s not the most pleasant feeling.
I don’t ever want another LE. So like I’ve said before time to focus on purposeful living. I’ve been reading old blog posts on here and there is a lot of good stuff. It does feel good to feel more free of LE but I wasn’t prepared for the blah empty feeling. Thanks for listening.
Yes. I am also there. Although my no contact is currently 1 day old. Had a nice time of limerence limbo until I said something reacting to my emotions which did not go down well, so now here I am approaching NC. But I know already there is a bit of emptiness looming. Simple things like what’s the point of dressing myself up or making my hair nice, or what’s the point of mixing with a new group of people because they won’t be as interesting as LO. People say there are loads of interesting people out there but they don’t quite hit the right note somehow. I wish this had never happened. For sure I’ve learnt loads about myself and about the mind through the process, and it has ignited some more interests but I still want to show those off to LO but I can’t and won’t now. Sounds terribly depressing. Purposeful living is one thing but where’s the buzz?
I’ve joined the gym, that’s fun. I like the fast paced work outs. But it doesn’t really solve the other 23 hours of the day…
Beth2, I went through the blah feelings, too. It gets better. You will be okay.
“We can convince ourselves we know there is no hope even though we’re still clinging to a tiny fragment of it.”
This is where I am at. Usually I am downright sad about it, so clinging to that tiny fragment keeps it in play somewhat. Even though I feel as if nothing will ever come of my situation, having that little morsel of LO present in my thoughts gives me that tiny little fragment of hope. Weird how sadness in an LE can seem so comforting.
Momma and I are watching something and I asked her “do women like hairy men?” I don’t mean hair on your head or face but body hair. Momma said if grew body hair like a bear she’d shave it off in my sleep. 🙂
I don’t know about all women, but I prefer less hair. I wish guys would shave it all off like women do, like men would do in various other cultures.
Hi Lost in Space,
I haven’t seen you in a while. I hope you are well.
Me too, Lost in Space, hope it’s a sign all is well!
Respect , Lovisa, for climbing that mountain and generally being my role model for getting sportier.
Thanks Mila, I hope you catch the running bug. Runner’s high feels so good.
Best wishes!
Hi Lovisa,
This time I haven’t started running yet, I’ve got myself a Pilates app that does me a world of good for my back pains, I do it every day and plan on building up a bit of core strength and only then start running again.
I think that’s the sensible thing to do! I feel quite good with that and eating less sugar and refined flour at the moment.
I also probably won’t ever get to the degree of fitness you‘ve got, but that’s ok, I just want to feel good in my body.
Mila, that is a great plan! I think I overdo it. It sounds like you are working on the stuff that matters. Congratulations on reducing those sugar cravings!
Hi Lovisa and Mila, thanks for asking! I’m doing well. My relationship with SO is in a great place and she’s really happy and we’re happy together. My relationship with LO is also in a really good place, my kids are doing well and I’m having lots of fun times with them, I’ve had some nice times with other friends, work is going well, I’m in good health and staying active, and SO and the kids and I are about to take a family vacation for 10 days to see family and also spend some outdoors time together. I feel good and positive and happy most of the time these days.
LO is doing really well. She’s working with a good therapist, she joined a DBT skills group, and is working with a psychiatrist and taking a low dose of a mood stabilizing medication that’s been working really well for her too. She’s spending more time on self care, and she and her therapist are working on building herself up and improving her self image and self esteem. She still has a pretty stressful life and some difficult relationships, but all in all she’s coping well with everything and has been more consistently happy and hopeful than I’ve ever seen. It’s been really nice to see and honestly I feel good about the part I’ve played in it.
The relationship between LO and I has remained warm and close ever since last time I wrote. We’ve been talking or texting pretty much every day except the weekends, still having these hours-long phone conversations a couple times a week where it feels like we could talk to each other forever. She asked me to help her out with a big school project this past week and I enjoyed working on it with her. She’s been bringing me food sometimes at work. She’s made a couple of little comments recently about wishing we could spend time together outside of work, but not in a “seriously suggesting this” kind of way but just in a “I know it’s impossible but wouldn’t it be nice” kind of way. We very rarely say anything about our feelings for each other – they’re just understood. I’ve found that with this consistency and lack of uncertainty, my negative symptoms of limerence (anxiety, rumination, intrusive thoughts) have been pretty minimal.
I do wonder about what the future will bring. This period of warmth and consistency has been nice, and it’s been the longest warm period we’ve had in quite awhile. Of course it could change again at any time – I’ve definitely experienced this enough times that I’m not overly confident that it won’t happen again. And then I also wonder about what life will be like in the long run if we don’t go back into a cold cycle and just maintain this current relationship. At the moment, it almost feels like we’ve passed through the limerence stage (a little bit over 1.5 years after it began) and have transitioned into a more stable relationship that’s some form of a pair-bond. Could we stay in the place we’re at for years, talking on the phone for a few hours a week and texting back and forth throughout the week days and having a positive and supportive relationship without ever needing it to be more? Or at least accepting that it can never be more, and both of us being truly ok with that?
The significant reduction in intrusive thoughts and ruminations has been very nice. Most of the time these days when I’m not actually in contact with LO, I’m not thinking about her. If I’m with my SO or my kids or a friend or my coworkers or if I’m reading a book or playing music or whatever, almost all the time now I’m fully present in what I’m doing and am not distracted by constant thoughts of LO. Actually I think you can see that in how rarely I’ve been interacting with LwL these days as well – it’s not because I’ve made any sort of conscious decision to disengage or stay away, I just haven’t been thinking about limerence much at all.
And finally, yes, I realize that I’m firmly entrenched in an emotional affair, with all the issues of morality and risk that comes with it. I had an interesting image come to mind the other day – I was thinking about how I’m feeling really happy and content now, and so is everyone around me, and life is really good, but there’s always the possibility that one thing could go wrong at any time and cause horrible consequences. It’s as if I’ve built a beautiful home with a beautiful yard and a beautiful garden and it’s a lovely place to live, but I also buried a land mine somewhere on the property and now I can’t remember exactly where it is. So I might live out the rest of my life in contentedness and happiness, but there’s always the possibility of stepping on that land mine and blowing everything up with one false step. Tread carefully I guess…
Hi LiS,
good to hear that everyone is happy so far!
I repeat myself when I ask if now, that you seem so content with the status quo, you couldn’t consider your LO simply as your best friend, introduce her to your family at some point and make her a stable person in your life without hurting anyone?
I mean all you do is talk, isn’t it, or are there still dangerous situations in the physical sense?
Hi Mila,
“you couldn’t consider your LO simply as your best friend, introduce her to your family at some point and make her a stable person in your life without hurting anyone?”
We’ve definitely tossed around the idea of meeting each other’s SOs and kids and trying to normalize our relationship – it’s really tempting to want to try it, but I also have so much fear that things could go terribly, terribly wrong, for a number of reasons:
– Her SO doesn’t approve of her being friends with men and is really jealous/possessive, so he’d never be ok with her being close friends with me.
– Her SO pretty regularly makes degrading comments towards her and towards women in general, and I’d have a really hard time keeping my mouth shut in that situation.
– My SO is ok with me being friends with women to a point, but she has concerns about me being really close friends with really attractive women (in part due to the experience with LO3).
– LO is just a super attractive woman and is exactly “my type”, and there’s no way on earth SO would meet her and think there’s any chance I’m not attracted to her.
– The chemistry between LO and I is really strong and would be really hard to hide around our SOs. Yes, we’ve kind of stabilized our relationship with boundaries and we’ve both explicitly agreed that nothing is ever going to happen between us sexually, but we’re still really attracted to each other and still have really strong feelings for each other. I still love her and am attracted to her in ways that I don’t feel for any other friend, and I know she feels the same way about me – the way she looks at me sometimes makes it pretty clear that she still fights a lot of temptation that she has to work to control. I think we’re both people who have enough self control that we aren’t going to give in to that temptation, but it would also be really hard to hide its existence especially from the people who know us best.
So what I’d be really afraid of is getting into a situation where I introduce her to my SO as my “friend” and SO figures out pretty quickly that there’s a lot more to it than just platonic friendship and starts asking me a bunch of questions, and then my only choices are to either come clean about everything, or to gaslight SO and try to convince her that everything her senses are telling her isn’t true, and those are both terrible options. So… as nice as it would be if we could all just be regular friends, I just see too much chance of it totally blowing up and causing a ton of pain for everyone and I’m not willing to risk it.
For what it’s worth, I am with Lost in Space on this matter. I don’t think it would be wise to become couples friends with LO and her SO. Lost could never be a genuine friend to his LO’s SO because he has already kind of betrayed him. The same applies to Lost’s LO and his SO. At some point, if the EA becomes known, Lost’s SO not only has to feel horrible that her husband betrayed her, but she would feel extra horrible that her “friend” betrayed her, too. I just don’t see a relationship between the couples working.
I think it’s different for you, Mila because the friendship happened before you became limerent.
Just a thought.
Yeah… I guess another way to put it would be that my LO and I can never actually have a legitimate friendship out in the open. Because of the feelings and attraction and history involved, we’d just be hiding an emotional affair in plain site of everyone, which to me actually feels more disrespectful and hurtful to my SO than keeping it discrete and quiet. Because carrying on with our relationship in full view of my SO would undoubtedly involve a lot of lying and gaslighting when SO’s observations and intuitions were telling her that something more than regular friendship was clearly going on.
I actually know this with certainty because I tried to do exactly that with my previous LO – I invited her over to our home and to outings with my family, tried to encourage a friendship with my SO. My SO saw through it quite clearly from the start, got really hurt watching me and that LO interacting all flirtatiously, asked me all sorts of questions, I lied and obfuscated, she accepted what I said but never truly believed it, and then when I eventually did come clean she told me she was probably more hurt by my gaslighting than she was by the actual relationship between me and that LO.
If my SO ever had an LO, I am certain that I would never want to know anything about it and would never want to meet him or see the two of them together. I would much rather her keep it totally under the radar and would consider that much more respectful of my feelings.
Hi LiS and Lovisa,
I understand completely, actually I understood it before, I just wanted to throw it in again in case something shifted or changed. Sometimes we are stuck in a certain view of a situation while life, feelings etc change and evolve.
I just wish for a happy ending for everyone. Ideally you would have your time of stable and mutual connection, glimmer slowly fading, then she would get a new job or something else to change her a bit depressing situation with her SO, and move away, and you could say goodbye with good memories and without having hurt anyone…
Let me dream for a bit;)
Lovisa, the situation with your sister is really horrible. You sound as if you are worried about her new SO. I don’t think you are the right person to tell him about her. She will take it out on you and be even more horrible to you, and worst case, he won’t believe you and both will make it hell for you. Maybe he‘ll find out for himself, I would wait a bit and not do anything right now.
Thanks for the update, Lost in Space. I’m glad that things are going well for you right now. It sounds like your LO isn’t the exciting new toy anymore but she has become a favorite pair of jeans that you’ll never get rid of because they make you so happy. I feel that way about my LO2 and LO3. I am so glad that I didn’t cross into emotional affair territory with either of them. Our relationships are just plain old friendships. Whew!
That being said, I have to thank you for the role you’ve played in getting your LO into a DBT group. Amazing! Speaking of someone who needs a DBT group…I’ve had my sister blocked on my cellphone ever since the police told me to block her (she had threatened to kidnap my daughters and come to my house to assault me). It was nice not hearing from her, but then she started texting me and some other family members from her deceased SO’s phone. Things got bad again. She made my life miserable for a few days until I decided to block that phone number, too. It’s much better now. The reason she started going at me again is because she asked on a group text why should she do therapy? I answered with lots of encouragement and kindness. She became angry because she didn’t actually want an answer and she texted me at all hours of the day and night. I didn’t respond, but she just kept going. She especially likes texting insults and swear words during the night because she knows that sleep is important to me. I wish that the new guy she is seeing could get her into a DBT group. My brother mentioned that he might warn the new guy about my sister’s behavior. My dad said, “She might not do these things to him and while he distracts her, the rest of us get a break. I vote we don’t tell him.” None of us have reached out to him. I have mixed feelings about it. Her SO hadn’t been dead two weeks when she announced that she was seeing a new guy.
Anyway, I have to run (not literally, I’m picking up my daughter). It’s so good to hear from you!
Lovisa,
That situation with your sister sounds absolutely nightmarish! I’m so sorry that you’ve had to go through all of that. I think one thing I’ve learned is that BPD is a spectrum with a range of severities – on one end you have people like your sister who sow chaos everywhere they go and make life hell for everyone around them, and on the other end you have people like my LO who would be described as “high functioning borderline” who have pretty stable careers and relationships overall and mostly internalize all of the pain and chaos and really do want to figure out what’s wrong with them and take steps to get better.
I’d say you’re in a better position with your LO2 and LO3 than I am with my LO because your SO knows about everything so you aren’t stuck living a secret. I’m so impressed with both you and your SO that you’ve been able to have that level of openness and trust in your relationship! I still really do hate the fact that I’m keeping this whole part of my life secret from my SO, but as I wrote to Mila above, I just can’t see any other viable alternative except cutting LO out of my life completely which I just don’t see happening anytime soon either.
Signs that you haven’t completely managed to get over limerence for a friend:
1. a short sharp disappointment when SO announces that he‘ll probably come too to an event where you were expecting to see LO
2. noticing or imagining same disappointment in a reticence in text from LO when writing that to him, followed by
3. an urge to explain why he comes
Not good! It destroys all feeling of „i‘m just innocently happy to see my good friend today“.
Actually I‘m positively surprised that my SO wants to come, he‘s usually not very sociable. Is it because he‘s wary of LO?
I mentally slapped my cheek for this short disappointment not to be able to talk privately to LO and try to get into right mindset again.
Hi Mila,
I think that limerents probably quite like one to one chats, whether with LO or not. This sometimes also happens in ‘innocent’ interactions between friends (by which I mean no ulterior motives 🙈)
But you are doing good it seems Mila? I am quite jealous!!
I am doing okay, in the circumstances (there is much that I do not write on this public forum!)
Hi Bewitched,
I‘m doing good indeed, and the meeting with LO today (visiting other friends)was so normal and even kind of boring that I feel very good now, as if healed. I noticed once again that it’s always me who has to create an atmosphere where we really talk or feel closer, he himself isn’t able to do that, and if I choose not to, it doesn’t happen.
For example, when I say goodbye without hugging because we‘re on bikes and he’s going the other direction, I see him hesitate but he won’t stop me to get off the bike and hug, he would just like me to do that. Passive as always.
I forgot to give him something (a leftover from what I gave our hosts), or maybe deliberately didn’t give it to him, I even cannot discern it. I‘ll eat it myself:)
When I see him like that, I really can feel the rift between limerence and reality- there’s this normal guy, nice enough, but kind of uptight, and why the hell did I make such an upheaval about him? He‘s not that much fun, and he‘s a bit insensitive, did he ask once about how I am? And that even doesn’t bother me because suddenly I‘m not that interested and more interested in going home.
But now, immediately after he‘s not in my line of sight any more, I feel the other , limerent picture of him taking me over, getting regrets on not hugging etc.
It’s so crazy! I should laugh about it if it weren’t quite disturbing.
I‘m of course very curious about what’s going on with your limerence after this visit to his home, but I understand fully that you don’t want to reveal much here.
I‘m much too revealing. My LO would never land on this site, but other people might recognize.
I think you are safe enough with your LO, Mila. He seems pretty focussed! I do think about other people recognising me here as well. Its probably good that older posts are sometimes difficult to find. If someone could search by username and get the whole thread for a particular user, it would be much more intimidating to post anything.
“When I see him like that, I really can feel the rift between limerence and reality- there’s this normal guy, nice enough, but kind of uptight, and why the hell did I make such an upheaval about him? He‘s not that much fun, and he‘s a bit insensitive, did he ask once about how I am”
This is probably a very good corrective to idealising your LO, typing it out is useful and I also get what you are saying. Like me, you probably take his silence for endorsement of fellow- feeling, at times, when its not. Male friends are more solipsistic, I find. They share less ‘important stuff’ and ask less questions about your life compared with female friends. I have hilarious interactions with male friends where I seem to be in constant listening and counselling mode….talking them down off the ledge about something. LO is a silent type so not much pressure put on me to listen there. Still, I get you on the ordinariness – he is also quite ordinary, so what is it about our brains that make us so keen despite it? Our brains are in love with love is what I think. We need to fall back in love with ourselves, to fill that gap is what I keep coming back to. This includes spending time by uourself and on yourself. Remember how much time you used to spend chilling by yourself and thinking about notjing in particular, or developing your interests? That is something we need to reclaim once the kids are older. Because we need to come back into ourselves after losing it to childcare and domestic duties.
Hi Bewitched,
yes, although I wished sometimes I could find a particular post of a particular person here, I’m ultimately very glad that you cannot search by username.
„ Our brains are in love with love is what I think. “
That’s absolutely right, I think. My need for this magical connection and warmth with somebody infuses LO with a rose-tinted light.
He probably has got a similar need- after yesterday’s short goodbye of course he wrote to get things back onto a warmer level again. His need is just for a more tempered and stable (lukewarm, in my perception)connection than my need, I guess.
What you write about filling the gap is something I try to do. I‘m quite happy with my new Pilates subscription, for example. I‘m just still not sure about the exact nature of this gap.
The obvious thing would be too little love in my life, but I’ve got a great SO and family. I’ve got a great job and my colleagues are mostly lovely, respecting and liking me.
I still seem to need validation through other people, especially men that glimmer for me.
Now, I feel myself changing with age, not needing to socialize or validate myself through other people and male attention that much as it was once.
I just cannot discern- is it a real maturing, a real independence of social validation and make attention, or am I convincing myself that I don’t need it any more, only to find myself a bit lonely and still needing people, but having rejected them, at some point.
Like “I’m getting old and unsightly, better stop before I embarrass myself“, or am I really more centered now.
Don’t know if I make sense…I’m not old and unsightly yet, but I feel the age creeping on.
Mila, this is interesting to me: “Now, I feel myself changing with age, not needing to socialize or validate myself through other people and male attention that much as it was once.”
I’m the opposite. I’ve never really felt the need for male validation, except maybe off and on in my 20’s. In fact when I turned 35 I told a boy-crazy friend that I’m relieved that I’ll now become invisible to men! 😄 Do I have to mention that she was shocked?! As a shy person I just found the attention uncomfortable.
Now, on the other hand, amid my midlife crisis I really need the attention. And since that’s new to me, I’m kind of leaning into it.
But I assume that it’s a phase that I’ll grow out of.
I trust that these things evolve and that you will also start to find validation within yourself.
Trifles,
“I trust that these things evolve and that you will also start to find validation within yourself.”
You won’t. 🙂 In all seriousness, you do start giving less f***s in terms of explaining yourself to other people or being overly nice and compliant. But, no, you still want male attention.
Ha, Marcia strikes again to smash all illusions of a wise and content age for women:)
Mila,
“Ha, Marcia strikes again to smash all illusions of a wise and content age for women:)”
Do you want me to lie? 🙂
Nooo Marcia. I love it!
Hi ‘gals’ 🙂
I don’t believe in ‘old and unsightly’. I have so much angst, sexual frustration and desire for a man that is older than me (albeit he is in great physical shape) that it just doesn’t make sense to me to think that others are put off by age because I am not put off myself.
Obviously some (younger) people don’t even see us middle aged women / men any longer because we have become invisible. But the folks our age and older do see us and at least, enough of them appreciate us to make that a viable thing. Older people also have the benefit of having learned a few tricks and picked up wisdom along the way. I know that others may disagree, but I find are and wisdom are so attractive especially when packaged in someone who looks after themselves. Like, you can see that a person cares about themselves when lots of younger folks just have youth on their side and may go completely to seed by our age – which is not attractive. I am not hanging up my coat and reaching for the slippers and cocoa any time soon.
But that might just be me, with my ‘older’ LO colouring everything.
😀
Bewitched,
my LOs plus SO were/are all younger than me, between 1 (SO) and 15 years. Maybe that‘s why I feel age more than you.
It’s not long ago that a 18 year younger temporary colleague hit on me,(he tried it quite consistently , but I couldn’t take him seriously, for me he really is a child- nothing to do with years, but with mind), and I think I still got some attraction even for the younger guys, but I guess that will fade in the coming years, and I try to get used to it before it happens. Maybe that’s stupid.
Cocoa and slippers sound cozy though, I have to say.
Mila,
“but I guess that will fade in the coming years, and I try to get used to it before it happens. Maybe that’s stupid.”
No one flirts with you. At least that’s what I’ve experienced. No one cruises you when you walk by. No one makes slightly inappropriate comments, like a co-worker.
I’m not saying that they don’t talk to you or joke with you. But the nature of the interactions change. You’re the cool, older chick. The friend. Which is not the role you wanted.
Older women have maturity, life experience, demure and class that most young girls do not. At least that’s how I felt in my 20’s. I think the disparity in LOs age with mine, is because despite her young age, she was forced to mature in a way that most 30 something young women haven’t. Life threw pie after pie in her face and she wiped if off each time. She was a rarity.
More often than not in public (alone or with Momma) I am checking out the mother not the daughter.
But Marcia,
maybe I’ll be ok with that role at some point? I even enjoy it now from time to time with my younger colleagues.
Yesterday my also 18years younger colleague wanted to have coffee and asked me for relationship/dating advice (he’s entangled in a somewhat complicated thing). I listened to him and was actually glad not to be in that phase of life any more.
Well, it’s anyway unavoidable, I‘ll see for myself…
Adam,
I’m not trying to sound obnoxious, but your LO is in her 20s, like almost every middle-aged male poster on here.
1:0 Marcia!
(Sorry, Adam, bring in a soccer mood)
*Being, not bring
Mila,
“maybe I’ll be ok with that role at some point? I even enjoy it now from time to time with my younger colleagues.”
I don’t mind that role sometimes, but I don’t want it all the time.
I’m thinking of maybe going full Sinead O’Connor with my hair. Or maybe dying it purple. I never did that when I was younger. I never had the “looking weird” phase. And why not now? Why not be that weird, older woman who shows up dressed in leopard print from head to toe? 🙂
Miss Marcia
When I met her she was 31. 33 by the time she left the job. Believe me I would NOT have eyes on a young lady that is as old as my own sons. And if I did someone needs to hit me over the head with a blunt object.
Adam,
“When I met her she was 31. 33 by the time she left the job. ”
Ok, that makes it so much better. 🙂
You were viscerally attracted to a younger woman. It is what is is. You like what you like.
Ooh, I’m joining the fun.
I say to Marcia, go for the Sinead O’Connor look- be fierce, because you are fierce, so your look should match accordingly !
I have so far not shared my age to my LO…only a few years in it, but not the direction he expects
Imho,
“I have so far not shared my age to my LO…only a few years in it, but not the direction he expects”
Don’t tell. A woman never reveals her age or her bra size. 🙂
Ha ha Marcia !!!
I would far happier to reveal my bra size than my age 😉
Marcia,
why not go a bit wild now! I’d love to see your shaved head. It looks surprisingly good on many people.
Imho, you don’t think he knows your real age anyway, isn’t there google and colleagues, many sources to find out from if one is interested?
IMHO,
“I would far happier to reveal my bra size than my age 😉”
LOL. Ok … a woman never reveals her age and her weight.
Mila,
“why not go a bit wild now! I’d love to see your shaved head. It looks surprisingly good on many people.”
It won’t look good on me. Tbh. But the whole point would be to NOT worry about looking good. To chuck the effort of looking … what? … compliantly, femininely attractive.
I just realized that my age and my weight in kilograms are exactly the same at the moment.
Ok Marcia, I get your point. Personally, I would enjoy it more to play around with colours than shaving. More choices.
I bleached my hair back in my late 20’s when Eminem was breaking the scene. I got often told I looked a lot like him, minus my glasses. I have no desire to dye my hair again. It’s gray and I like it like that. Now if only had the capital to dress like Idris Elba, Pierce Bronson, David Beckham or Gary Oldman to go along with my gray hair and goatee. If I had the money to dress that posh you’d probably never see me in a jeans or t-shirt again. Well Momma might see me in that you know when ….. it’s suits (pun intended) her.
Adam
“I bleached my hair back in my late 20’s when Eminem was breaking the scene. I got often told I looked a lot like him, minus my glasses.”
Oh, good grief!
f
Adam,
“I bleached my hair back in my late 20’s when Eminem was breaking the scene. I got often told I looked a lot like him, minus my glasses. ”
“I guess there’s a Slim Shady in all of us.” 🙂
I had a thing for Eminem in the early 2000s. Him and the guitarist from Jane’s Addiction. 🙂
“I have no desire to dye my hair again. It’s gray and I like it like that. ”
I hate mine. I have all this white coming in on the sides.
Mila,
“Personally, I would enjoy it more to play around with colours than shaving. More choices.”
I have visions of being some kind of punk lady with a lot of black eyeliner. 🙂
Marcia,
I like that! Please!
Also, I like Eminem. Amazing speech-control😅
I’d be happy to reveal my bra size! —but I’m more reticent about my age. But that’s the only one people ask about, so…. 😉 A while back LO guessed my age several years younger. Then recently he guessed it several years older. I told him he was being insulting, lol.
Serial Limerent,
“A while back LO guessed my age several years younger. Then recently he guessed it several years older. I told him he was being insulting, lol.”
Any guy with half a brain knows that if he is guessing a woman’s age, he subtracts 10 years from his estimate before blurting it out to her. 🙂
The time I was asked to guess both LO and the woman that was working there with her at the time’s age, I guessed LO’s much younger and the other woman’s older. This was pre-glimmer so it was an honest guess. Talk about scoring brownie points while earning a death sentence at the same time. I just backed away with “Hey you two asked me.”
Adam,
“Talk about scoring brownie points while earning a death sentence at the same time.”
Now you know. 🙂
I don’t set myself up by asking people how old they think I am, but if they ask (and if the person asking is a man) … I always ask him, “How old do you think I am?” And I have no problem with him blowing smoke up my butt with an answer that is obviously designed to flatter me. 🙂
I have a weakness for “darling” as affectionate term. Is that better than “gal” Dame Marcia?
OK, I’m breaking my rule of silence here because it’s you, Adam, and I think “Darling” is actually a perfectly nice term. It’s certainly better than “gal” but I’m British. What do I know about American culture?
I’m not sure if you should be asking Marcia because I think she may have gone feral lately. I don’t know.
⬆️ Just a joke. Jokes do sometimes get me into trouble, unfortunately.
My LO called me “My Love” a year or two ago. Despite my best efforts, I’m still rather cross with him. I’m even more cross with myself.
Rather like Beth2, Anna and ABCD, perhaps, I’m thinking that No Contact for six months should have done the trick. I still relapse into early morning rumination etc., though, and sometimes all the other ghastly stuff. One day it will pass because, each day is slightly better than the last.
f
@frederico.
Today’s comedy routine:
When I was a little boy, my father used to call my mother “darling”. My father called my mother “darling” with such frequency that I assumed “Darling” must be my mother’s Christian name. (It wasn’t). 😆
My mother, on the other hand, used to tell my grandmother that she’d give the latter “a ring”. When my mother said “ring”, she meant “phone call”. I assumed my mother was giving out bands of precious metal set with gemstones and I thought to myself: “I can’t wait until I’m older and I too get to be the recipient of these fabulous items my mother is handing out.” 🙂
I was strolling through a shopping centre the other day and a beautiful young man called me “the man with the beautiful beard”. Unfortunately, this beautiful young man was just a salesman trying to grab my attention so he could sell me something! I gave him my best “I’m not here” look. 🙄
I was at my favourite cafe the other day, and the chef said hello to me by firmly patting me on the back as he strode past. “Violence!” shrieked the waitress from behind the counter as she witnessed the interaction. “How many times have I told you not to manhandle the customers? Sammy is a delicate flower, and I will insist on defending his honour!” Chef wanders back to kitchen, muttering darkly to himself: “It wasn’t violence…” 😊
I’ve just remembered the moment I fell in love with my LO. We were locked out of our Maths classroom one sunny afternoon because the teacher failed to show up. Another boy tells my LO a joke. The punchline: a pun on the word “pianist”. LO laughs his silly dolphin laugh and inwardly I swoon. 🙂
Adam,
“I have a weakness for “darling” as affectionate term. Is that better than “gal” Dame Marcia?”
Yeah, “darling” isn’t bad. Or “love.” Someone called me “love” the other day. I liked it. Anything but “mam.” And you only say “gal” if you are listening to music on a victrola. 🙂
How is the rehearsal coming along for the show? I asked you about it another post, but I can’t remember which one. You’re to wear a track suit and Adidas tennis shoes. Also, you need a breakdancer nickname. Crazy Legs. Mr. Freeze. Glyde, for example.
Frederico,
“I’m not sure if you should be asking Marcia because I think she may have gone feral lately. I don’t know.”
I certainly hope so. 🙂
@Marcia.
“I certainly hope so. 🙂”
See, my observation about you was true – you’re too easy-going! 😆
Sometimes, the best way to deflect potential criticism is to agree with said criticism wholeheartedly. Especially if there’s some tiny sliver of truth in said criticism. Not that frederico was criticising you – only joshing you good-naturedly. 🙂
Sammy,
“Sometimes, the best way to deflect potential criticism is to agree with said criticism wholeheartedly.”
That was my strategy. 🙂
“Not that frederico was criticising you – only joshing you good-naturedly. 🙂”
I got that. I thought it was funny. 🙂
Hi Marcia,
Frederico said you had gone feral. I have read some of your **cough, cough** more interesting comments above, and I think our mutual British friend may have been seriously downplaying the situation! 😆
“That was my strategy. 🙂”
Yes, I noticed. You are full of strategies. 🙂
“I got that. I thought it was funny. 🙂”
I knew you got it. I was spelling things out for people who might be less quick to get it. Sometimes, with limerents, providing more information is better than providing too little. Ergo, my sleep-inducing verbosity! (Hey, some limerent have trouble nodding off. To such folk, my verbosity constitutes a public service). 😉
“in terms of his earlier work, he [Prince] wasn’t dapper. He looked like a freak. He was transgressive. That’s what got the women going. 🙂”
Yes. Hm. I know what you mean – early-career freaky stuff. Say no more. Say no more. I’ll let you enjoy that wee trip down memory lane on your own. 😜
Prince is the only man to ever make me question … am I …. or am I not?
Sammy Sams,
” (Hey, some limerent have trouble nodding off. To such folk, my verbosity constitutes a public service). 😉”
If that’s what you need to tell yourself to get through the day …. 🙂
“Yes. Hm. I know what you mean – early-career freaky stuff. Say no more. ”
He was a man with a career behind him. Get it? 🙂
In all seriousness, did Paglia write about him?
Adam,
“Prince is the only man to ever make me question … am I …. or am I not?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHjTzoeLeac
It’s no wonder. He worked the hell out it. 🙂
@Marcia.
“If that’s what you need to tell yourself to get through the day …. 🙂”
Such a pert reply, my dear. You must be in a good mood. 🙂
Maybe it’s just the “giddy side” of limerence shining through, though? The “giddy side” of limerence which I of course **cough, cough** know nothing about because I am **cough, cough** not a giddy person. I am **cough, cough** a dignified person. 😁
“He was a man with a career behind him. Get it? 🙂”
If you’re referring to a certain pair of revealing trousers he once wore on stage, then yes, indeed I do get it. Kylie Minogue once cited that outfit in an interview when people were giving HER a hard time in the 90s about her too-sexy costumes. 😉
If you’re referring to something else, I have **cough, cough** no idea what you mean. I am **cough, cough** a dignified person. 🙂
“In all seriousness, did Paglia write about him?”
Yup, she regarded him as one of the great artists of the twentieth century. But she also thought he ran out of ambition as he grew older.
She talked a little bit about the different personas he adopted throughout his career. Obviously, everyone knows about his “dandy persona”. However, before his “dandy persona”, he adopted at least one edgier persona that I am not at liberty to talk about. I’m sure Prince’s edgier persona was the persona you likely enjoyed most. 😇
@Adam.
“Prince is the only man to ever make me question … am I …. or am I not?”
Say no more. Say no more. I know **cough, cough** exactly what you **cough, cough** mean. Can someone fetch me a glass of water please? I mysteriously can’t seem to stop coughing … 😜🙄🤣😊
Sammy,
“Such a pert reply, my dear. You must be in a good mood. 🙂”
I am. I’m a great mood today.
” I am **cough, cough** a dignified person. 😁”
Hmmm … dignity is like subtlety. An overrated quality. 🙂
“If you’re referring to a certain pair of revealing trousers he once wore on stage, then yes, indeed I do get it. ”
That was an epic performance, but I was making a general comment about the quality of his posterior.
“If you’re referring to something else, I have **cough, cough** no idea what you mean. I am **cough, cough** a dignified person. 🙂”
You kept saying that …like it’s something good. 🙂
“But she also thought he ran out of ambition as he grew older.”
He never lived up the ambition of his work in the ’80s.
“Obviously, everyone knows about his “dandy persona”. However, before his “dandy persona”, he adopted at least one edgier persona that I am not at liberty to talk about.”
He was always a dandy. But are you referring to the rebel, freak, visionary persona? 🙂
“I’m sure Prince’s edgier persona was the persona you likely enjoyed most. 😇”
It’s the same as liking the earliest Madonna persona. Was there ever a better one?
@Marcia.
“You kept saying that …like it’s something good. 🙂”
I keep saying that … like it’s something true. 😉
Although maybe I’m not as dignified as I like to imagine myself to be. Apparently, when I speak, I have an unintentionally sexy accent. People, who have never seen me in person, are attracted to me after hearing my voice.
For example, I was once informing one of my senior-citizen friends – who was completely uninterested in the topic, by the way – that music critics mockingly call the Aussie band Silverchair “Nirvana in Pyjamas”. This is because Nirvana is seen as serious punk music for adults whereas Silverchair is seen as a cheesy knockoff for teeny boppers. An attractive younger man overheard this conversation all the way from the next room, and he was instantly smitten with me. I think the way I pronounced the word “pyjamas” thrilled him. 🤣
“It’s the same as liking the earliest Madonna persona. Was there ever a better one?”
Camille Paglia would definitely agree with you. Madonna perhaps shines brightest as a disco dolly, belting out early hits such as “Burning Up”. If Madonna ever wants a genuine comeback that is both commercially successful and artistically credible, she needs to return to her disco dolly roots – a time when she was doing her best work musically and had a style that wasn’t completely derivative.
My favourite Madonna song, however, is 1994’s “Take a Bow”, her collaboration with Babyface. I think Madonna looked beautiful in a cheongsam, with platinum-blonde hair piled high on her head. The lady can definitely be elegant when she’s in the mood to be elegant.
When it comes to fashion, I was a big fan of late-80s, early 90s “high glamour” for women. Princess Diana was a wonderful exponent of this style, particularly in terms of eveningwear. The late Princess looked phenomenal in black, although royal women aren’t meant to wear black except for funerals. She looked superb in midnight-blue – any shade of blue, really. Post-divorce, she wore an electric-blue evening dress to a gala dinner here in Oz, and the dress caused a sensation. 🙂
@Marcia.
“Hmmm … dignity is like subtlety. An overrated quality. 🙂”
I don’t know if subtlety is an overrated quality. You’ve just got to learn to use subtlety in the most effective way. 😉
Here’s one way to be subtle-and-yet-not-subtle at the same time if you happen to be a woman. You’ve got a work conference to go to? Fine. Find the more boring, demure, work-friendly outfit you can find and put it on. Then pair this boring, demure, work-appropriate outfit with one single outrageous accessory from your presumably vast collection of outrageous accessories. 😉
If you don’t know what an outrageous accessory is, I recommend crocodile earrings – long, dangly earrings in the shape of crocodiles. Baby crocodiles are even better. Or alligators, since you’re from the US. Put on your best pair of alligator earrings. 😇
Trust me – the only thing at the conference anyone will be talking about is your unusual earwear. People won’t even notice your demure work clothes. “Did you see that woman with the … Was she really wearing …? No! Say it ain’t so! Where can I get a pair?” 🤣
Sammy,
“Although maybe I’m not as dignified as I like to imagine myself to be. Apparently, when I speak, I have an unintentionally sexy accent. People, who have never seen me in person, are attracted to me after hearing my voice.”
Aren’t you Australian? Yes, that’s a very sexy accent.
“Camille Paglia would definitely agree with you. Madonna perhaps shines brightest as a disco dolly, belting out early hits such as “Burning Up”. ”
I agree. I love that song.
“Unlike the others, I’d do anything
I’m not the same, I have no shame
I’m on fire”
She’s so tacky in that video. Rolling around on the road. Camille wrote that Madonna lost some of her “erotic currency” when she lost weight and went hard-body (around 1986). She was right.
“If Madonna ever wants a genuine comeback that is both commercially successful and artistically credible, she needs to return to her disco dolly roots – a time when she was doing her best work musically and had a style that wasn’t completely derivative.”
And lose all the fillers in her face and the weird grills in her teeth. She’d actually be more interesting if she’d stop trying so hard to look young and follow the trends.
My favourite Madonna song, however, is 1994’s “Take a Bow”, her collaboration with Babyface. ”
Oh, no no. 🙂 That song (and album it came from, Bedtime Stories) marked a turning point for her. That’s when she was toning down. After the Erotica album and Sex book. I get it. There’s was nowhere else to go with her sex persona. She had almost backed herself into a corner. She had to pivot, but she was never as interesting.
“When it comes to fashion, I was a big fan of late-80s, early 90s “high glamour” for women.”
Oh, I’m sorry. I fell asleep reading that. 🙂
“Princess Diana was a wonderful exponent of this style, particularly in terms of eveningwear.”
In all honesty, I don’t quite “get” the royals. What do they do, exactly? They’re kind of the equivalent of reality tv stars. They have no skills or talents. I mean, of all the modern royals, Diana was definitely the most glamorous and charismatic. And she was able to use her popularity to shine a light on some important issues. She certainly displayed a level of compassion. But other than that …
“Trust me – the only thing at the conference anyone will be talking about is your unusual earwear. People won’t even notice your demure work clothes. “Did you see that woman with the … Was she really wearing …? No! Say it ain’t so! Where can I get a pair?” 🤣”
Well … I think it would be more like: Kooky older lady wearing weird accessory.
@Marcia.
“Camille wrote that Madonna lost some of her “erotic currency” when she lost weight and went hard-body (around 1986). She was right.”
Yes, Camille liked Madonna’s figure best when Madonna’s figure could still be described as “charmingly ripe”. 🙂
“In all honesty, I don’t quite “get” the royals. What do they do, exactly? They’re kind of the equivalent of reality tv stars. They have no skills or talents. I mean, of all the modern royals, Diana was definitely the most glamorous and charismatic. And she was able to use her popularity to shine a light on some important issues. She certainly displayed a level of compassion. But other than that …”
I think a lot of ordinary people like the royals because they treat the royals, rightly or wrongly, as a mirror through which to look at themselves. One finds the royals interesting if one sees oneself reflected in the royals. If one can’t find any reflection of oneself in the royals, one probably finds the royals very dull and/or irrelevant. It’s not what the royals do or don’t do per se. It’s more what one projects onto the royals. Same as any other fandom I guess. 🙂
Sammy,
“Yes, Camille liked Madonna’s figure best when Madonna’s figure could still be described as “charmingly ripe”. 🙂”
I remember, at the time, way back around 1983/4, she was described as a little plump. I watch the videos now for Burning Up and Lucky Star … and I’m baffled by those old comments. She doesn’t look chunky to me at all. But then I thought a young Scarlett Johansson looked better before she dropped the weight. Same with a young Lindsay Lohan. At that age, you have a dewy, ripe-peach quality. Don’t mess with it. 🙂
“I think a lot of ordinary people like the royals because they treat the royals, rightly or wrongly, as a mirror through which to look at themselves. One finds the royals interesting if one sees oneself reflected in the royals. … It’s more what one projects onto the royals. Same as any other fandom I guess. 🙂”
That makes sense. But I sure don’t see myself in King Charles! I guess a famous actress or musician is easier for me to see myself in … particularly a musician. They’re expressing who they are in their work. I think when you are very young (in middle school and high school) … the music you listen to kind of defines you. It helps you discover who you are. But I can’t seem myself in very formal, stiff people who were born into wealth and privilege. 🙂 Can you? Now with Diana … there was a sense of vulnerability, of someone trying to find herself, which is more relatable.
@Marcia.
Something to cheer your soul. I just watched the official music video Prince made for his song “The Holy River”. And yes, I can definitely appreciate why you and other women would regard him as some sort of benchmark for male attractiveness. He is so extraordinarily dapper in the vid. Camille Paglia called him “one of the most photogenic people on earth”. 🙂
Sammy,
” Prince made for his song “The Holy River”. And yes, I can definitely appreciate why you and other women would regard him as some sort of benchmark for male attractiveness. He is so extraordinarily dapper in the vid.”
I haven’t seen that. But in terms of his earlier work, he wasn’t dapper. He looked like a freak. He was transgressive. That’s what got the women going. 🙂
When it comes to terms of endearment, I’m partial to “Doll” or “Kid.”
Then, again, I really like Humphrey Bogart and identify with “Casablanca.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqhNZJKMFLc
Rick isn’t a limerent but I can see how this could be letting an LO go. The lines about regret are great. I got a ton of mileage out of them over the years. They work in many contexts.
True Story:
Early in our relationship, a friend of LO #2’s visited. In a lot of ways, I had more in common with LO #2’s friend than I did with LO #2, including a love for “Casablanca.” When she left town, LO #2’s friend gave me a framed poster from the movie. LO #2 was not amused. I had the poster for years. I don’t remember what happened to it.
After she left, LO #2 asked me to tell her if I ever got a letter from her friend. I said ok and asked why. LO #2 said that her friend would send a letter with a lock of public hair to guys she wanted to sleep with. At this point, LO #2 and I hadn’t slept together but did very soon after. I got the idea that her friend asked LO #2 that since LO #2 wasn’t all that interested in me, would it be ok if she took a run at me.
I never did get the letter.
Fredeico “my love” is a bit too much for me (or should be any heterosexual man) but I’d bloody my knuckles for you my friend if anyone looked at you sideways for your preference. Your LO seriously perplexes me. I would not say that to a man that isnt family or in law.
Marcia
Ma’am is an address of reverence and adoration not age Miss Marcia. Dame Marcia. Mother Marcia Lady Marcia. Miss Lady Gal Sister Woman Dame Madam Gal and Young Lady. 🙂
Adam,
“Ma’am is an address of reverence and adoration not age”
I don’t want to be revered. 🙂
Dude, Bro, Brother, Man, Big Daddy, Big Poppa, Daddio Adam 🙂
For Momma
“I sold my soul
you bought it back for me
And held me up
And gave my dignity
Somehow you needed me”
You Needed Me — Anne Murray
https://youtu.be/2UUlvsoinhg?si=-vI5elEbeGBPEq9J
Adam,
You owe Damnit this one:
“You’re My World” – Helen Reddy (1987)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVom6u7lHLQ
It’s a cover of a 1964 Cilla Black song.
I love it!
LE
Unfortunately I discovered this song in limerence. But damn does that woman have such an ethereal voice. Turning it to Momma.
Like Beth Gibbons.
All Mine — Portishead
https://youtu.be/FvFY2Stxlzc?si=5ruq7aNBxY2Lghae
This woman’s voice makes me slip out of reality.
Portishead,
Now we’re talking..
Great stuff.. 👌🏻👈🏻😉
MJ
We both sent each other mix tapes when we were talking online before we met in person. As far as Portishead I sent her “All Mine”, “Sour Times” and “Only You”. She was bewildered at my Portishead selections as much as I was all the country she sent me. I love Portishead’s Roseland NYC Live album. Great mix between their act and an orchestra. Especially “All Mine”. “Tethered and tied there’s nowhere to hide from me.” :heart:
My now favorite country song is “When You Say Nothing At All” by Allison Krause. And that was at a time in my young years I hated country music of almost any kind.
Momma said this song reminded me of her because I would fall asleep on the phone talking to her and she would just listen to me sleep before she would hang up the phone.
When You Say Nothing At All — Alison Krause
https://youtu.be/1SCOimBo5tg?si=WMnHff3e7d2b5H4N
@Adam,
I remember that one from the 90s. They used to play a country station once a week at the Warehouse I worked at then. I remember hearing it all the time.
I never really gave Allison a chance till I heard her do this remake. I think it’s better than the original.. It also is on LOs eclectic and extensive playlist..
-Allison Krause
“Now that I found you”
https://youtu.be/l5QLod7F0Yk?si=8rjyWjAuHzz5Jn_C
100% true story – I went to the eye clinic for a routine checkup today. After a thorough exam, the optometrist told me “your vision is excellent, but your eyes wander a bit. Have you been told before that you have wandering eyes?” He then asked some questions trying to determine if I’d had wandering eyes my whole life or if it was something I’d developed more recently.
Happy Independence Day to all my American friends here, and to the Brits, a very happy “hey, we can still be friends!” day 😁
I suffer from Wandering Eyes myself.
You’re in good company.. 👀
Happy 4th to you.. 🇺🇸
Haha – that’s got me chuckling. Self awareness is a virtue LiS! 😀
Happy Independence Day
LiS, better wandering eyes than being accused of wandering hands eh?! 😉
Happy 4th July to y’all !
I’ve always had wandering eyes, too! lol
That is hilarious, Lost in Space!
Happy Independence Day, everyone!
In between March of 2022 and August of 2022, LO left the job in June of 2022. I have an Afib in my heart. March was one of my routine checkups. I took my EXG and then waited to see the doctor. When he talked to me he said everything was good. He said if when I came back in August and everything was still good we could cut down to one annual visit.
August 3 2022, after spending two days previous with our oldest son at college for their opening house I saw my doctor for my checkup. He said, “Adam this isn’t good, Your heart rate is way too high and your heart is back out of rhythm.” As Lost In Space said he tried to determine what the cause was. He could not figure it out physically. So he asked me if I had any traumatic changes in my life. And I shared that [LO] a woman I worked with had left the job. I told him that I enjoyed working with her and we had become close. That I had even gotten to know her daughter. I jokingly said “I guess she broke my heart huh doc?” To which the doctor then explained to me that she very well could have as emotional and/or physiological trauma can present itself physically.
Why are the two things in life I enjoy trying to kill me?
Aw Adam!!
Look after that heart of yours, its a good one.
My Catholic faith has taught me, anytime in life that we are given a cross and are dependent on God for, is for our own good. We may not see it or know what that is right now. One day, perhaps in the next life, we will.
MJ
I hoping that is the case this Sunday. The pastor always seems to somehow know exactly what I am going through even when the sermon has nothing to do with me personally. It still somehow resonates. This has been one of the worst weeks in many years on so many multiple fronts that I almost just felt like giving up and laying down in the middle of the street. (Metaphorically.)
And the more I stress the more I drink and the more I stress the more I want to escape to limerence. But I kept my head on straight (for the most part) and would either escape with some video games or watching something on TV with Momma.
Speaking of drinking too much, I drunk dialed my sister in law last night. 🙂 I recovered that quickly with asking her about some rash (she’s an RN) on my arm that I got doing landscaping this week. And then talked about the holiday weekend. I asked about Lady Friend and told her I was looking forward to them all coming down to visit. I heard my brother in law in the background “what you don’t care how I am doing?” Lol That was a experience that helped me through the rest of the night until Momma woke up and we watched a movie together before I slept. Those two have helped me, like everyone here, so much in getting through this.
You seem to get the basics down when you need to. So when it feels like the bottom is falling out, you re-direct by finding something to get your mind right. Which is a great first step.
I’m glad you come here to escape as I do too at times. Getting re-affirmation helps me. My blathering-on is probably crap but I’m glad you get the support you need.
We need Den-Mother Lovisa now for some more proper words of wisdom.. 😄😆
Aww, MJ, you are so sweet. I will oblige.
Adam, that feeling you get during church services when you feel like the lesson applies to you is good. It means you are teachable. In our church, we say that the Holy Ghost is teaching you something. It’s a good thing.
MJ, let’s talk about the box of tissues and the photo of your LO. First let me say you guys had me laughing out loud. Now I will tell you what I told my teenage son when I accidentally caught him in a similar situation. “What you are doing is normal. I don’t recommend it, but it’s normal and quite common. Just please clean up after yourself and absolutely wash your hands when you’re done.”
@Lovisa,
It really isn’t what you’re thinking but since the conversation somehow got spun that way, I kinda ran with it. As a joke of course, because I know this really isn’t the place for that kind of conversation.
Sometimes it’s the quieter moments when LOs picture just takes me to a better place. Depending on my mood, I can either think happy or sad thoughts but usually I’m filled with regret, so then I get emotional. Hence needing a box of tissue. Believe this middle-aged man when I say I could cry the whole box away..
Thank you for responding here and to Adam’s post also..
I’m sorry MJ, I couldn’t resist. Frederico’s humor has been hilarious lately the way he spins things. It’s so funny. You really did set yourself up for it, but I knew what you meant. I hope there’s no hard feelings. At least I think it was Frederico who originally spun it. I can’t find the thread that talks about the box of tissues.
For the record, I knew you meant tears. I’m sorry if I crossed the line.
I apologise for my occasional “one-liners” which, in reality, don’t always fit the room. I will resist them in future, especially after a glass of wine, which I should not really be drinking anyway.
MJ and Adam, particularly, I am very sorry about what you have been going through and I absolutely empathise.
f
@Frederico, Lovisa,
You’re both fine. I’m not offended. It’s good to keep things light. I’m not in a terrible place. The LE is still around, just not affecting me like it was for the longest time.
Sometimes Sammy has a way with words and how he perfectly explains things and so I feel compelled to reply. That’s how the handkerchief comment got started.. 🤣
@MJ.
“Sometimes Sammy has a way with words and how he perfectly explains things and so I feel compelled to reply. That’s how the handkerchief comment got started.. 🤣”
I knew my name would eventually get dragged into this… 🙄
Actually, I thought Frederico’s one-liner was delightful in a very British sort of way. And I thought your response was clever, MJ. But, as Serial Limerent already said, ew. 😆
Here’s something that might return the conversation to more salubrious territory. Two poems (among many) I wrote about my LO. If anyone still has doubts I’ve experienced limerence, these two pieces should settle the matter:
If I knew then what I know now,
I never would have kissed his brow
Or crowned his locks in laurels bold –
Laurels of the purest gold.
As Darkness gives way to Light,
So Fantasy gives way to Flesh.
The man who disrupted my sleep
For years on end? Nothing spesh!
If I knew then what I know now,
I never would have kissed his brow
Or been so quick to sing his praise –
Praises heaped on feet of clay.
—
Everything falls apart in the end –
Even understandings between friends.
Some rifts can’t be mended.
Only shards remain, broken panes, loose ends.
In my dreams, I still search for you
In houses old and austere.
Is it time to let you go?
Time to drop you from my prayers?
You know I loved you very much?
Loved you too much, I daresay?
Loved you without reservations
And in an almost childlike way?
Beautiful poems Sammy. Especially the second one.. Going to copy and save it..😂
And really need to keep the word “salubrious” in my vocabulary..
🤣
@MJ.
“Beautiful poems Sammy. Especially the second one.. Going to copy and save it..😂”
Thank you. Glad you enjoyed. 😛
“And really need to keep the word “salubrious” in my vocabulary.”
Yes, it’s so wonderfully English, isn’t it? 😆
Well this song seems appropriate for this conversation. Not that the video itself doesn’t insight such thoughts. Cause damn sister God put you together right. Mmm. Mmm.
I Touch Myself — Divinyls
https://youtu.be/wv-34w8kGPM?si=6fMLF3-yx_g3rP7k
I watched it. My lips are sealed.
🤐
Mine aren’t.. 🤣🤣🤣
Sammy
I very much enjoyed your heartfelt poems. They seem to fit right in with ‘time travel wisdom’ too.
“If I knew then what I know now” etc. Brilliant.
Limerence recovery seems to be such an agonisingly slow process sometimes, even when you are doing all the “right” things.
“Limerence recovery seems to be such an agonisingly slow process sometimes, even when you are doing all the “right” things.”
I get this Frederico. Sometimes too slow. Things between Lady Friend and I are good. Sometimes I think too good. She’s about to become a first time Aunt soon and so very excited. I have something nice I got for her, for the occasion. I also may even go and help her pick out a Cat, (The little scoundrels) since she lives alone now. It just feels “right” to have some normalcy again when I feel so often removed from it. Dads issues really overwhelm me at times lately, so she is like the perfect escape whenever we meet up.
Yet there’s also a “what if” thought swirling about in my head over LO and I still try to see her coming in, when I know she’ll be arriving in the morning. I think her hours got changed because I hardly see her much, but I do pass her sometimes coming in. She still takes my breath away, so it’s always worth the wait.. 🥰
It was very good to read your update, MJ, and it does seem that you have got things carefully balanced.
The thought of you helping to pick out a cat made me smile.
f
The pair of you are just too funny!
MJ – glad it sounds like it is pretty good and stable with Lady Friend. These new experiences must be letting you do a lot of healing from LO – though I know it is still very much work
in progress.
@Frederico,
Yes the key word is “carefully” but it is a challenge.
I do find it quite hilarious she wants a Cat. I’ll do no more than support her effort, but want nothing EVER to do with “cat” sitting the vile little creature.. lmao.. 🤣
MJ, I think you will like this story about our neighbor’s cat. He is a friendly little guy and most of us enjoy snuggling him. He spends a lot of time on our porch waiting for someone to give him affection. I love that cat! My 15-year-old tolerates the cat. She doesn’t dislike him, but she doesn’t want to touch him either. He has a funny way of gaining her attention. She practices throwing axes at least once a day. The cat stands on her targets so she has to pick him up and move him. He won’t budge unless she picks him up. Of course she won’t throw her axes when he is on the target because she isn’t a monster, but he really annoys her when he makes her pick him up. I’ve seen him taunt her. He is so bold, he will circle her targets and rub against them while my frustrated daughter holds her axe. The silly kitty.
@Lovisa,
I actually don’t mind Cats, except the ones I had were never mine. They belonged to my Kids, were getting old and left me all kinds of surprises, all over the place, all the time. It got completely of control. Between coming home from work (and my LO mindf#@!) to dealing with the vile little scoundrels, and then Dads needs when I would head over that way later on, I was slowly losing it and always coming back home to some kind of mess. Its a wonder I never kicked those Cats out into the woods or on to the highway, but I came close.. I told my Ex she had to take them back. It was only supposed to be temporary anyway. Which turned into over 2 years..
I’m glad you got rid of those vile creatures, MJ. The way you talk about your cats is funny.
Is your dad living in a care center? My mom’s needs are bigger than my family can handle so we moved her to a very nice assisted living center that is close to my house. So far so good. I’m there at least twice a week. My mom likes her new friends and she enjoys participating in the activities.
Dogs are ok, but I love cats!
I’ve been around cats since I was a small child. I have way more cute cat memories than I have dog memories, like almost shooting my neighbor’s cat, Tiger, because I forgot I let him in during a storm and he jumped on my bed just as I was falling asleep.
I was just at the point where you’re about to drop off when I felt something on the bed. I reached under the bed, came up with my .357 Ruger, and pulled the hammer back as I pointed it toward the door. Tiger said, “Meow.” I put the gun down and got up. He went to the door. My neighbors had come home and Tiger wanted to go home so I let him out.
LO #4 is a dog person. She once said that she wouldn’t date a man who owned a cat. I wanted to reply that there are men out there (i.e., me) who wouldn’t date a woman who said that even if they didn’t own one.
But, at the time, I was leaking profusely and even though the possibility of LO #4 and I ever dating was remote, at best, I’ve beaten the odds enough to know that it’s just better not to broach some issues than roll the dice.
Feline solidarity, forever!
Always been around cats growing up. Took the one I had when I left home to live with Momma. Had two kittens when we lived there. Our oldest son’s ex gave him three kittens he took with him when he went to off to college. We went to a shelter and bought another cat for our youngest whose still at home. That just turned 18 yesterday. His mother is still stressing. Never really cared for dogs. Momma had one when I first met her, Duke he was a Labrador. Loved that dog. Other than him just not a dog person. Other than my father and mother in law’s mastiff? that apparently, like me, has a foot fetish as I won’t walk around their house when we visit without at least socks on.
Cute stories, LE and Adam.
I love all animals except snakes. I really really don’t want to be around snakes, but I respect them. They are a protected species where I live. I know because when we bought this house I kept crossing paths with the local snakes. I googled what type they are and learned that I am not even allowed to remove a snake from my own yard. I have to leave them alone. So that is what I do. I think they have learned my habits because I rarely see them anymore. Between the black widows and the snakes I almost sold this house right after we bought it. I don’t mind the black widows anymore. My mom was right, they are polite spiders.
If I were choosing between a cat or dog, I have to choose a dog because almost everyone that lives in my house is allergic to cats including me. If allergies weren’t an issue, I’d prefer a cat because you can snuggle a cat in ways that you can’t do with a dog. That being said, my friend has a dog that does her laundry. The dog actually does laundry. She paid $25,000 for her laundry-washing, service dog. Amazing! I can’t think of anything useful that you could teach a cat. Although, I did teach my cat to use the toilet. I regretted it. He didn’t flush and sometimes he left his business on the toilet seat. I wouldn’t teach a cat to use the toilet again.
I love these stories! I’ve always been a cat person. In fact, they come to me, and I’ve even been known to tame cats who hate people.
@frederico.
“I very much enjoyed your heartfelt poems. They seem to fit right in with ‘time travel wisdom’ too.”
Thank you. 😛
The theme of the poems does seem to go with the blog theme of “time travel wisdom”, now that you mention it. A happy coincidence, eh? 😎
The worst part of limerence is it now makes me second guess any future female relationships outside family or in laws.
I struggle with this somewhat myself. I don’t consider myself out of the LE woods yet and many times already I’ve mistaken Lady Friends cues as something more. When they’re not really cues at all. She’s just a very friendly, easy-going person and I always have to remind myself of that. I enjoy her friendship immensely and sometimes its so freakin hard to not want to disclose. My limerent mind wants to believe her stares or watching me while I work could mean something but I don’t want to have to explain my so-called interest in her. Because I feel like it might change our dynamic, as disclosure could ruin everything. I feel like I’ve worked too hard to mess things up now by throwing my feelings into the fray. I’ve told her very little about LO and wonder if I’ve said too much already about her. Explaining limerence and all my sadness surrounding it would be waaay overkill. My gut feeling is she’s just not emotionally ready for something like that or any kind of real relationship now. So I’m trying to take things just as they happen every day and let it all happen by chance and in the moment. If it’s God’s will, it will happen, but I’m not rushing anything.
I think Ms. Lovisa has explained some of this phenomenon before in her posts. Where Women simply being friendly can be very misleading to us guys. I can understand why this might be an issue for you. But since you know what damage limerence has already caused on your end, you probably know better what not to do this time around. You already know how to re-direct your thoughts when things get rough. Just keep that up and remember you can’t save every Woman from their past. Whatever it might be.
Keep in mind also how good Momma has been to you throughout. Could she really handle another episode?
” Just keep that up and remember you can’t save every Woman from their past.”
But if I don’t who will? I know, I know, I get your point MJ.
Last night Momma was looking at something I wanted to show her on my phone and an instagram notification came up and opened it up. And all of a sudden I hear her (while I am taking a drink) “oh I know why you follow her” and I am like oh $hit I am in trouble now lol. I just looked and her and shrugged, hoping for the best. I think I tried to fumble out an excuse. But more than likely I just copped out to being a man.
I think sometimes the ladies don’t how har —- err difficult it is to be a man. You are right about what Miss Lovisa said. I don’t think a whole lot of women know how what they consider casual interactions can be taken by other men. A smile from a woman is one of the most beautiful things ever. It doesn’t matter if it is Momma, LO, or a babygirl. Not that I don’t get turned on by the “why do I put up with your $hit” look Momma gives me (just recently last night … hmm is there a connection I wonder) and wonders why that puts me in the mood. I don’t think we were ever meant to understand women. God cursed women with childbirth. God cursed us with Adam’s indecisive attitude and now we are paying the price of that with not understanding women. Dammit Adam!
Okay good song playing now while I wrap up this comment. Why do women got us on a leash? I mean I wouldn’t mind if Momma wanted that liter …. oh wait I am sharing too much.
“darling mine
I would wait forever
for those lips of wine”
I Just Want To Be Your Everything — BeeGees
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFZE9VZ50nU
“God cursed women with childbirth.”
Among other things.
Painful childbirth is a direct punishment for original sin.
One of LO’s favorite expressions was “God truly is a man.”
I heard that every month.
The births of my children were the best days of my life. It hurt alright, beyond anything a man can imagine, but then I had the miracle of having nurtured and given birth to a child with my own body.
Not to be blasphemic, but whoever meant that as a curse (for sure it was a man who wrote it and not God) failed.
Now I’ll go hide from religious outrage.
Mila
“Really all women are amazing and I mean that in a very pandering way. But women are really. A woman can grow a baby inside their body. And then someone how a woman can delivery a baby through their body. And then by some miracle a woman can feed a baby with their body. And when you think about the male equivalent to life, it’s kind of embarrassing really, ‘Yeah well I helped too. For like 5 seconds doing the one thing I think about 24 hours a day.'”
Jim Gaffigan — comedian and father of five
Adam 🙂 😉
Adam,
“Really all women are amazing and I mean that in a very pandering way. But women are really. A woman can grow a baby inside their body. And then someone how a woman can delivery a baby through their body. And then by some miracle a woman can feed a baby with their body. ”
To be honest, you’re more than welcome to have all those skills. 🙂 And all the problematic plumbing that goes with them. 🙂
Mila, that is beautiful! No need to hide from this religious woman.
Lovisa❤️
LOL Adam 🙂
I’ve never really had many opposite sex friendships. I did in school or in groups or as couple friends but as soon as I was married it was always men are friends with men and women ar friends with women. I think this was also the expectation/what has been ingrained in me through church. I once went to a church where there was an expectation that females only communicated through their husbands. This was quite damaging. I understand the idea of it, not to put anyone in danger of gossip or speculation, and not for any potential misunderstanding or feelings. However, it has confused me about what is ‘normal’. I found myself googling quite a lot whether it was ok for males and females to be friends and meet up. However, in the context of my LE I think I was just trying to justify that it was ok to spend time with LO as we were ‘friends.’ Truth is, we were never really friends, as much as that breaks my heart. He probably saw me as a friendly colleague that he got on with well that we would sometimes refer to as ‘friends’ but nothing more, and not more special than other female friendly colleagues. I, on the other hand saw this friendship as a big deal. I would turn to LO if something significant happened to me, or to share some news. I would make the effort to keep in touch and try and arrange virtual chats. As a friend, I wanted to maintain that relationship as I would any friend. I’m not good at having casual acquaintances. I need to feel close to someone to class them a friend. In contrast, I have a friend who is extremely sociable, she makes friends wherever she goes and has a lot of different groups. She has no issue with male/female friendships and sees it as completely normal. I think because I only like to have intimate close 1:1 (2:1 at most) friendships, for me male/female friendships won’t work. I think too much about it, it’s too deep, and then is one sided and unbalanced. I know I’m looking at this from a burnt out limerent so maybe my judgement is clouded. But I am on guard. Which makes it very difficult to navigate opposite sex relationship.
I do accept I can’t be friends with LO. And that means no casual contact. It’s really hard and sad but truthfully I know he won’t reach out to me and doesn’t that just sum it up? It was one sided and too intense on my side. Just need to keep strong now. Push through the sadness and accept that distance is protection rather than rejection.
Whoomp, I relate to you. I am in the same boat with my LO. Can’t be friends. I’ve tried to have just casual friendship with her and what I found is I am always trying to pursue her and when she doesn’t act like I want her to I get let down. It’s better for me to just stay away from trying to be friends with her. My LO like yours never initiates. If I pull back and go strict LC she seems indifferent. Any personal relationship I have with her is determined by my effort, not hers. Like you, that says a lot.
Right now, after weeks and weeks of LC things feel weird between us. We have nice friendly work related interactions but absolutely no personal ones. It feels as if she avoids me as much as I do her. A word I like lately is ‘estranged’. We feel estranged.
On the female friendship side of things, I have about 3 good work related female friends. It’s never been an issue with my marriage and I don’t crush on these women. I like having female friends as I get along well with females. LO was not a friend before I glimmered for her so I don’t have to navigate that.
Hang in there! You are doing great!
WhoompThereItIs,
“I only like to have intimate close 1:1 (2:1 at most) friendships, for me male/female friendships won’t work.”
I’m the same way. I prefer to have closer friendships, if it’s the kind of friendship where we’re talking and getting to know each and spending one-on-one time together (versus spending time in groups and keeping the friendship casual).
I ‘ve had close friendships with men, but they were with guys I wasn’t attracted to. If I was attracted to them, I couldn’t get close to them. Hanging out with them one-on-one would feel too much like dating. Becoming friends like that with an LO would be out of the question. Now, the guys I did become close friends with … their motivation to get closer, at least in part, may have been a bit different than mine, which I wasn’t aware of at the time or I ignored.
Now that I’ve gotten older, I’m not sure that men and women can be close friends. Again, I mean someone you are spending time with, alone, outside of work or school or wherever you met. Calls, texts, etc.
Hi Whoomp,
I found your thoughts about M-F friendships interesting. Much of the question when married depends on what you and your spouse think about it between you, I guess.
I am a man who generally makes friends with women quite easily, and my work exposes me to potential female friends all the time.
I have three or four really good female friends in my life (I am ‘midlife’) where there has never been any question of crossing boundaries into ‘feelings’ or any need to even discuss the possibility with them. Well, I crushed on one of them just a little at the beginning but it faded quite fast, while the other two were just friends with nothing else ever. There are more if I include friends of my SO, but I see them as a different category to friends I make myself.
Reluctantly this is a much smaller number where I have had the complete ‘no strings’ friendship, than those who have turned into some feelings on one or both sides that have meant the friendships have to reduce or end. I wish it wasn’t that way, as it has lost me good friends.
So what I think I want to say is that a F-M friendship can happen, but I find it is quite rare, especially if we are prone to limerence.
When I started out with my SO, I told her that I had several close female friends (the 3 I mentioned); I promised there was nothing more to any of them but also said I wasnt prepared to sacrifice the friendships once in a relationship. SO saw that as reasonable, knows these friends and meets them now and again, but most of my interaction with them is one-to-one with SO’s consent.
I am not sure what I’d be like witu this if it was the other way round, but I’d like to think tolerant and trusting of it, if SO had been as upfront with me about it as I was with her.
Then of course my LO comes along and muddies all those waters and messes with my head. I met LO just a short while before SO and for quite a time she became in that category of close friend without feelings (I had initial small glimmer but it really had seemed to die out before SO was around). So SO seems to have accepted LO has a role in my life in that same category. But of course I then got glimmer and the full-on limerence this time. So it is not even remotely genuine of me to claim LO is in that group (either here or to SO).
So in a way, the previous experiences that SO has of me having close but no strings female friends give me a smokescreen for LO’s status in my life. I don’t want it to be a smokescreen, I want to see LO again as a friend but not more, as I did before. It is proving difficult! I never plan to act on how I feel about LO. But I don’t know if I can manage to get through the limerence with our friendship intact, or whether in the end I will have to reluctantly admit (like so many others here), that LO can’t be ‘just my friend’ again and that she has to go. If I went the second route, not only would I lose LO (a very valued friend before and independent of the LE), but would need to explain to SO why LO had disappeared as a ‘friend’ from my life.
So I guess I’m also saying that even when you feel safe in a M-F friendship for a long time, that can change. I do think LO changed subtle things in how she was towards me though, which is what triggered the second round of glimmer.
I think your purpose and staying power to get past your LE and to keep strong about NC is great by the way, from all your have written here. Keep it up. Maybe you will also have some takeaways from this that help help you better understand the boundaries in future F-M friendships, and what the signs are that there is danger of crossing them. I have learned much about this for my future from the LwL community, even though it is proving so hard to drag myself clear of this LE.
Good luck with the next bits!
Thank you. Interesting thoughts. I’m trying my best but when I’m low I’m low. Made worse when my brain has time to wander. I want to be present in the moment and less distracted. I know the next few weeks and months will be tricky. I think for me, male/female relationships/friendships will only work in groups and casually. No texting, no one on one, so in that sense only referred to as acquaintances. Maybe I do put too much pressure on the word friend when others use it more blasé. I will miss thinking of LO as a friend, as I do already. But need to see it for what it is, not what I want it to be. For some reason I think I’m worse off if I don’t speak to LO. Like a big part of my life is missing out. But having read a lot on here, this is where reprogramming is important. Link LO with the stress, not with the initial high. That should work hopefully, because there has been a lot of stress!
Reading Dr L’s Saturday (re)post I got to thinking something L.E. told me. I remember him telling me his father told him in his teens to never marry a virgin. That has really stuck with me. Because my limerence was 50% that and 50% midlife. His father was right. Avoid us like the plague ladies.
Uncertainty, regret, unfulfilled adventures and all the carnal human desires. I am not going to get religious here as we all are not; that said I think that it’s a path in life that is best left explored than ignored. I never, well we, Momma and I both didn’t forbid either of our boys sex, but focused on them being safe and going about it in a healthy emotional state and not for the sake of the physical. I got scared into abstinence in my upbringing. I am not saying that was at the time a bad thing. And I most certainty glad that my first sexual experience was with someone that I had deep emotions for and not something that I regret or was shallow and easily forgotten.
But I do feel that this lack of experience in life played a very large role in my limerence. Couple that with LO being a reminder/regret of a girl that I cared/loved but was in the end was not reciprocated. My first heart break. She smiled like her. Laughed like her. Had the same big beautiful eyes as her. They were practically twins. Of course my dumbass didn’t realize the connection until LO was long gone. Had I made that connection maybe I could have minimized the damage I did to my family.
This midlife thing …. I hope I get out alive. Would buying a Corvette I can’t afford help?
My boss was here yesterday at the job and will be here today again. I sat across from him at my desk most of the day thinking about asking him about LO. If he had heard from her recently and how she was doing, as they know each other outside of work. In the end yesterday I didn’t. I asked about the new young lady working here and asking if she was content here and that if there was anything I could do to help her feel welcome. God help me to do the same today.
He asked me yesterday “Why do you think this your responsibility?” I told him it is because none of the other salesman seem to care how what they do, or more often than not don’t do, affects how these ladies jobs go. People don’t appreciate what they do and I am effing tired of it. He said “it’s been 8 years in between the last time you worked here and you haven’t changed a bit.” I remember him telling me he described me to a new hire (she doesn’t work here anymore) as “overly polite”. Should a man be any less to a lady?
Can I just skip this and get to old man sitting out on the porch in gym shorts, dress socks and loafers with no shirt on drinking a Pabst Blue Ribbon and yelling at the kids on my lawn? I think I’d like that better even if it means closer to death.
Adam, it is interesting that you think marrying a virgin is a bad idea. I disagree. My husband was a virgin when we married. I am very pleased with our 26 years together. When he learned about limerence, he tried to experiment with it out of curiosity. It didn’t work for him. He said, “I just don’t understand limerence. I haven’t been interested in another woman since I met you.” Maybe someday he will have feelings for another woman, I don’t know, but being a virgin on your wedding day is irrelevant to your susceptibility for limerent episodes.
I encourage my kids to aim for monogamy. I know that it is their choice, but I am a big fan of traditional marriage and monogamy so I hope my kids wait until they are married.
As for the Corvette…. I did an internship in project controls at a reclamation site as my first job in engineering. The comptroller had a Corvette. He loved it, the other men loved it, the women couldn’t care less. He had to replace a tire and one tire was going to cost $300. Not only was the car expensive, but the maintenance was expensive. It didn’t appeal to me and while he was calling around to different tire stores, it didn’t appeal to him either. On the other hand… a few years later, I worked for a different engineering company. One of our subcontractors drove a cute sports car. I don’t know what kind because I am a girl and I seriously don’t notice those things. It was purple and small. That is all I remember. Our subcontractor told me that he was going through a midlife crisis. He told his wife, “I’m getting a sports car or a young mistress.” His wife agreed to the sports car.
Lovisa,
“but being a virgin on your wedding day is irrelevant to your susceptibility for limerent episodes.”
It may have nothing to do with limerence, but being a virgin on your wedding day can make a person more susceptible to curiosity about other people and experiences they may have missed. I had a friend who met her husband when they were both virgins, at 18. They hit about mid-30s, and she talked often about how he would stare at other women when they were out. I know it bothered her because she talked about it almost every time I saw her.
And he’s, to be frank, not the same guy he was at 18, when no other women would talk to him. He’s filled out a bit, he has good job, he’s not a bad-looking guy, and I’d be surprised if he wasn’t attracting some female attention.
Adam,
My father didn’t tell me never to marry a virgin, he just recommended against it.
Then, again, my father was my best friend until the day he died. I used to talk to him every Sunday at noon when I was at college. The day after I lost my virginity to LO #1, he called. I told him what happened.
His response was to wait while he went downstairs and got on an extension where he could talk. He was in the kitchen with my grandparents sitting around. He asked me how it went. I told him it had a lot of anxiety and, honestly, wasn’t all that good. He chuckled and asked a few questions, mostly about how LO #1 saw things. Then, he said that I’d done just fine and things would get better with more practice.
He was right, they did.
I married a virgin, but it was just the way things worked out. I’d have married my wife if she hadn’t been a virgin. My wife liked that I had experience. She didn’t like to think how I got the experience.
Miss Lovisa
I am grateful, in ways that I was a virgin getting married. I am thankful that I got that “experience” as L.E. mention, with my wife. I was raised Christian so yes I too was encouraged to wait until marriage. Growing up at that age in the 90’s after the 80’s AIDS epidemic also helped keep sex in perspective as well.
But at the same time I do believe, at least myself personally, curiosity was certainly a factor in my temptation. Though I am not saying had I “sowed my royal oats” before getting married that limerence would still not have hit me like it did. Like I said factoring that I was trying to relive through LO what I didn’t get a chance to in the past was a factor as well.
I guess latter in life as our boys grew up to the age of sexual maturity that I just wanted their experiences to be with someone they cared about, married or not. I certainly didn’t encourage them to be flippant about sex either. I think I tried to find the balance between some of Momma’s regrets and my inexperience before Momma. So I hope we struck a good balance with them.
I am not much of a car person. I just know it is pretty much a stereotype of something middle aged men do. Personally I’d take a PS5 instead. 🙂 But we just bought our son a new Xbox for his birthday on the 6th and that was expensive enough.
L.E.
Sorry to misquote your father. I remember the gist of it and coupled with Dr. L’s post it really got me thinking how much that might have factored in with my limerence. Like Miss Marcia’s friend’s husband I am not the same as 23 year old me when we got married. If present me would have told 23 year old me in 20 years you are going to be tempted by another woman and it is not going to be one of your finer moments, past me would have said “I’d never do that!” But 23 year old me is also the one maintaining NC and fighting stupid 46 year old me.
I have no issue that my wife had past experience. Even at that we both were still relatively green. But we made up for that together as the years went on. But I feel differently about a lot of things than 23 year me did now. I don’t see sex as decisively as I was taught to. I see it as part of the human experience. And everyone sees that experience in different ways. I don’t think I would change anything if I could go back to 23 year old me other than try to handle limerence better. I don’t think more sexual experiences before marriage would have made me immune. But since I can’t go back, I will never know just how much a factor a sexless life up until marriage played in limerence.
“Can I just skip this and get to old man sitting out on the porch in gym shorts, dress socks and loafers with no shirt on drinking a Pabst Blue Ribbon and yelling at the kids on my lawn? I think I’d like that better even if it means closer to death.”
I get this Adam.. Completely.. But in my case, not having a shirt on would be more than enough to scare those kids away.. 🤣
In Praise of Shame
Lord Alfred Douglas
1870 – 1945
Last night unto my bed bethought there came
Our lady of strange dreams, and from an urn
She poured live fire, so that mine eyes did burn
At the sight of it. Anon the floating fame
Took many shapes, and one cried: “I am shame
That walks with Love, I am most wise to turn
Cold lips and limbs to fire; therefore discern
And see my loveliness, and praise my name.”
And afterwords, in radiant garments dressed
With sound of flutes and laughing of glad lips,
A pomp of all the passions passed along
All the night through; till the white phantom ships
Of dawn sailed in. Whereat I said this song,
“Of all sweet passions Shame is the loveliest.”
****
It is very unwise to eat fruits of regret, particularly about one’s emotions in time and space… Speak about, learn from, and live with them in peace.🕊️
To all,
I’ve travelled back decades in three weeks and half around the globe in distance…
6 years ago when I visited COO, It was the beginning of my limerence; 6 years later the end… A new dawn shines upon, life goes circles no matter what (whether I believe in Buddhism or now)….
The old sites of the troubling childhood and youth did not trigger me as I had anticipated and prepared for, my newly discovered and renewed Self during my 6 years of limerence journey just stared at them (took a lot of photos), even with a bit of wonder 👁️ 🤔 — “Did this or that really happen here❓❓”… “I must have dreamed them…”
Now, home again, the residual impact of my past traumas seems to be all gone, still visible in space as if they were someone else’s… I’m joyous in peace… might be bored soon.
My own experience of absence here in LwL: it helped tremendously reduce LE intensity by not talking about it excessively… In fact, I seriously questioned its existence when I was busy having a variety of activities with my old pals or on my own. To some, limerence truly lived/lives in the head, not in reality; it’s like a series of long or short dreams….
I’m one of rare ghosts here who tries to hold onto my LE for its inspirational effect; however, instead of my intentional efforts to make its positive effect to last, it’s naturally fading away due to the natural NC….
The Unconscious contradicts and fights over one’s conscious efforts! If you will something strongly, watch out who will win…
Enjoy chatting, everyone! 😀
Hi everyone,
I read a comment on Reddit this morning and I really wish this person wrote in to Dr. L., because the scenario they describe would make a fascinating case study. We could call it “The Case of the Non-Narcissistic LO”. Any wise thoughts? 😜
“I just discovered the phenomenon of limerence and I realized I have a friend who has been an LO to multiple people to the point that it’s become a problem in her life. She’s lost multiple close friends, been through a lot of awkwardness, and just recently had to move.”
“I’m trying to figure out what about her could be causing this pattern. Based off of what I’ve read so far, if I didn’t know her I would think she must be narcissistic or really attention grabbing, but she’s the opposite. She likes being alone and unperceived, and she doesn’t think super highly of herself (though doesn’t seek or want validation). She’s a pretty closed off person, and doesn’t tend to try to get in deep with anyone. She’s not romantic, only been in one serious relationship, and it didn’t work out because it lacked depth. She’s fairly level-headed, too, so wouldn’t necessarily gravitate towards people with obsessive tendencies (no judgement here, I’ve had my fair share of unhealthy fixation).”
“Has she just been unlucky? My best guess, and this is what I concluded before I found limerence, is that she is a people-pleaser and kind of a ‘blank canvas’. She has a friendly/familiar type face and strangers often talk to her out of nowhere. I think she must have the type of personality that makes it easy for people to idealize her and project what they want to see on to her. She is also very into fitness, so perhaps she is just spending time with people who tend towards intensity because of that? Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this? If you’ve had one or multiple LOs like this, what do you think it was about them?”
“I used to think she was so cool that she was always the subject of people’s affection but it’s really hindered her friendships (both men and women), bled into many parts of her life, and caused her a lot of pain. I’ve witnessed the friendships first hand (I’m not just getting her side); she really doesn’t seek it out and doesn’t want it to keep happening. I feel bad and wish I could help.”
Good one, Sammy!
My LO2 is one of these people. I’ve wondered if he did it on purpose, but I don’t think he does. He has had women say that they intend to leave their husband to be with him and he’s like, “Don’t leave your husband and please leave me alone. This is creepy.” One time a girl sent him a letter “breaking up” with him because she was sorry, but she wanted to date other people and he didn’t even think they were an item. Our other friends are amused about the way women respond to LO2 and they have made a game out of it. They like to introduce him to new women to see what happens. Some crazy things have happened over the years. I think I know why he is so alluring.
1. He is attractive enough. Not too much, but definitely enough: good looking, smart, good hygiene, good values…
2. He is really good at connecting with people emotionally: great listener, sincere, caring…
3. He is freakishly open about his sexless marriage which discredits his wife so women don’t have to feel guilty for finding another woman’s husband attractive.
Those are my best guesses about why he gets so much attention from women. I don’t know what the female equivalent would be.
Thanks for sharing, Sammy!
@Lovisa.
Thank you for your thoughts. You had me at “good hygiene”. 😆
Sometimes, I think some of the posters here at LwL aren’t experiencing limerence, and the reason I say this is because there’s a big difference between “attraction” and “obsession”. I think some posters here might only be experiencing “attraction”, which is fine. However, “attraction” is a lot less distracting and debilitating than full-blown obsession. 😉
If my reading of Dorothy Tennov is correct, limerence episode sometimes end with a showdown between limerent and LO. The showdownsoften plays out in one of two ways:
(1) In a small number of cases, the LO rejects/distances themselves from the limerent because they’re tired of the limerent “hassling” them. I guess some LOs may ghost limerents for this reason.
(2( Much more commonly, the limerent rejects the LO due to the LO’s apparent inability to reciprocate feelings. Often, this rejection is accompanied by a scene made by the limerent party. I imagine the limerent would say something along the lines of “You led me on” or “You only pretended to care about me” or “Our love story wasn’t genuine”.
I wonder, in the instance of anonymous “non-narcissistic LO” lady above, if she has found herself on the receiving end of one or more “scenes” from disillusioned limerents? And I wonder if she is tired to being “blamed” for supposedly setting out to frustrate other people’s romantic ambitions? 🤔
I think you are correct, Sammy. I suspect this woman doesn’t know why her “friends” suddenly behave oddly towards her. Your second option sounds likely to me. Can you imagine how awful it would be to receive a declaration like that from a “friend?” It would be so confusing.
@Lovisa.
“I think you are correct, Sammy. I suspect this woman doesn’t know why her “friends” suddenly behave oddly towards her. Your second option sounds likely to me. Can you imagine how awful it would be to receive a declaration like that from a “friend?” It would be so confusing.”
I’m not sure if many limerents are composed enough even to make (coherent) declarations of strong feelings. If limerents were composed enough to declare feelings, then matters could easily get resolved and everybody could move on, friendships intact, etc. 😉
I think a lot of limerents one day just get really emotional around their LO, pick a fight over some totally unrelated matter, don’t get the response they want from LO, and then walk away and never talk to LO again. In other words, the limerent finds some way to express intensity around LO, and when LO doesn’t respond with an equal level of intensity, it’s basically “game over” in the limerent’s mind.
Limerence, sadly, doesn’t lend itself to clear and honest communication. I think the stakes just feel too high. 🙄
I’ve been thinking about my own life. I think I’ve probably had one “altered state” and 5 LOs within that one “altered state”. I escaped the pull of my first two LOs – my high school LOs – by transferring. The last three LOs I walked away from when I realised they’d never reciprocate feelings, and the interaction felt increasingly pointless to me from that point on. I.e. “If you don’t really care for me, what am I even doing here? Why are we still talking to each other?”
When I was younger, I ended these associations with a bit of a tantrum (the third LE). Tears were involved and I always said no to offers of ongoing friendship. (All of my LOs except one offered me ongoing friendship, indicating that they didn’t particularly despise me I guess, or need me to steer well clear of them. They just weren’t passionately in love with me). When I was older, I ended these associations without tears and with an air of genteel, graceful resignation. I simply grew out of the need to make scenes. 😜
Two of these men (high school) were ostensibly straight, but simultaneously exhibited a high level of bisexual arousal, which might just be a by-product of normal male adolescence. (Everyone’s hormones are a bit unsettled during adolescence). Two of these men self-identified as gay. One of these men was … Heaven only knows what. The last fellow was definitely the most interesting. I think he was lonely and wanted friendship. He refused to reject me or cut me out of his life entirely, even when I begged him too. He just couldn’t accept that his innocent gift of friendship could cause another pain. 🤔
I think I can attribute all the pain I’ve felt to the “altered state” of limerence itself, and not to the behaviour of individual LOs. So I sympathise with LOs who feel they shouldn’t be blamed for the strange suffering of limerent admirers, since they weren’t being intentionally alluring or deliberately withholding. 😜😆😊🙄
Sammy/Lovisa
“I don’t know what the female equivalent would be”.
These are the qualities that have ‘done it’ to me with multiple LOs, including but not limited to current LO:
1. She has a naturally warm and easygoing communication style
2. She directs the warmth (or at least appears to in the limerent’s mind) at the limerent more than to others – ie she shows a strong level of friendly interest
3. She makes the limerent feel like they can be themselves around her, which is great for ego and confidence (or there are at least enough signs of that for the limerent to create this belief in their mind)
My LEs have all started with emotion-based stuff and then ramp up the idea that I’m physically attracted to them later (after the glimmer). But certain physical qualities that will vary between people, or a certain base level of physical attraction, are probably needed for the emotional cues above to trigger anything.
If I just found a woman physically attractive but didn’t get the emotional cues, I’d likely get a crush but not limerence. They have to radiate warmth to plunge me into the limerent soup.
@Lim-a-rant.
I had a male LO who did all the things you describe. He made me feel like I could be 100% myself around him. He was nice to everyone, but he seemed to show a distinct preference for my friendship/company. He was warm and easy-going and relaxed.
The last time I saw him physically, the “scene” where he symbolically rejected me, breaking my heart forever, he still offered to drive me home!! Maddening!! He was incapable of mean-spirited behaviour. But, at the same time, he was dangerously addictive – at least to me. He was the world’s most toxic drug in human form. I could never get enough of him. I just wanted to absorb him. 🙄
If I bought him a gift, he bought me a more expensive gift. If I sent him letters, he offered to pay for the postage so I could keep sending him letters. If I suggested email, he said he loved what we were doing over snail mail. If a dead leaf fell on my jacket shoulder, he brushed it off. If I told a dirty joke, he told an even dirtier joke. 🙄
He didn’t mind same-sex affection, at least not with me, which is why I say he displayed high levels of bisexual arousal, despite not being in the least bit “gay”. I mean, he was comfortable with my hand in his hand, my head on his shoulder, my back against his back. And we expressed all this affection in public – in front of his parents, in front of curious teachers, in front of amused peers of both sexes.
We were probably our Christian school’s gayest non-gay couple. We basically went to the formal together. Our female dates, for all intents and purposes, were just table decorations. At the same time, I don’t believe he is/was closeted and/or repressed in any way. I think he was a 100% heterosexual male who just enjoyed borderline romantic physical contact with me for no apparent reason. 😲
I loved sitting close to him, so close to him I could “inhale” him basically. His perspiration was like … I dunno … something that should be bottled and sold at a premium on the black market. Such a natural aphrodisiac. I’ve never smelt anything like it before or since. He was gorgeous, but in a way that seemed intangible. (Not facial features, but more scent and movement and energy). 😉
I told him our five-year friendship had always felt “ineffable” to me i.e. other-worldly. He chose the same word to describe his friendship with me. I have no reason to believe he was being insincere. And yet, despite all this, he wasn’t limerent for me… 🙄
Sammy do you think he was being narcissistic, or as described elsewhere here as a ‘sensor’ LO (loved your attention and wanted to keep it)? Or do you think it was much more innocent than that, eg because he wasn’t gay or bisexual, he just never entertained the idea that it was anything more than friendship, and just enjoyed being your friend?
About my list of 3 cues (meant as female behaviours that trigger a male
into getting limerent for them, but I think could equally apply to straight or gay male situations). All these cues could also be made by someone who just wants a friendship with the person. That could apply to your situation, or mine (I don’t know and barriers stop me trying to find out), or anyone’s here.
Aside – I once had a gay male friend who was convinced he could ‘turn’ me or ‘unlock’ a gay side that I don’t have in reality, and taking steps to try and do so. He may have been limerent thinking about it, but this is the first time I have ever thought of that possibility.
This is good information, Lim-a-rant and Sammy! Very helpful information.
Sammy, I agree that an LO’s scent should be bottled and sold. My LO3 smells so good! He doesn’t smell like deodorant or laundry detergent or cologne… it’s him and it’s amazing!
Lim-a-rant, your list of female qualities that trigger limerence is helpful. So helpful. It sounds like basic attractiveness is a good foundation, then add warmth to trigger limerence in someone. Yikes! I don’t want to trigger limerence in anyone, but I like being warm. It sounds like a good way to balance this out is to treat everyone with the same warmth because then the potential limerent won’t feel special. Whew!
When I was younger, I had to be somewhat cold to men. If I was warm, I’d pick up on signals from the man and my inner dialogue would say, “Dang it, now he wants to sleep with me.” Then I’d get extra cold until the signals passed. It is unfortunate, but necessary because men are so easily triggered.
I’ve been thinking about MJ’s lady friend. I suspect she believes that she has found a genuine friend in MJ and she is going to let her guard down a lot because she trusts that he is satisfied with friendship. I think if MJ expresses romantic interest in her, it’s going to confuse her. I’m just waiting for it to happen. It reminds me of the time when my friend asked me to marry him and I was like, “What? Why? We’ve never even dated or kissed, why would you ask me to marry you?” I was so confused. Men can be so confusing.
Lovisa this is soooo difficult isn’t it? Like why would you as a woman NOT want to be naturally warm and friendly to men, and make them feel they can be themselves, with all the great benefits that come with that? But then find that we men seem to misinterpet those signals for something more, and then create a mess!
Let’s flip it around – I know this is hypothetical in your situation, but what if you actually wanted to convey attraction to someone, not merely friendly warmth – what would be different then? Apart from just saying it – which is maybe the only real answer.
It is in these blurred borderlands that limerence thrives (at least for me).
I’m confident MJ has his head screwed on re his Lady Friend from chats we’ve had on here lately!
Lim-a-rant,
“Let’s flip it around – I know this is hypothetical in your situation, but what if you actually wanted to convey attraction to someone, not merely friendly warmth – what would be different then? ”
Touch them. Even quickly, on the lower back. That seems to convey more than the upper shoulder, for example.
Compliments about their physical appearance.
Sexual comments. They don’t have to be graphic. More like innuendo that references the two of you.
Looking at them a lot. Holding their gaze. (I hesitate to mention this, because we’ve talked about eye contact a lot on this forum :))
I work with several men. They’re friendly to me, helpful. We joke around. But I don’t think they’re attracted to me. There’s nothing that they’re doing that conveys attraction.
Great question, Lim-a-rant! I don’t know the answer, but I will be pondering this.
Ironically, the opposite is quite frustrating, too. It’s frustrating when I believe I have sent all the right signals and the guy seems oblivious. Then, years later, I find out that he was interested in me, but he didn’t initiate anything because he thought I wasn’t interested in him. Sheesh! This boy/girl stuff is challenging. I will think about what those “signals” are. It’s intuitive so I have to ponder it in order to share it. Hmmmm…..
I think it is that women are more subtle. But men are more obvious. Almost 25 years together I can take Momma’s “advances” the wrong way when she is just being affectionate. Just the other morning I felt her hand on my lower back (I don’t sleep with a shirt) and I got revved up in my sleep. She was just letting me know she was there because I was apparently restless.
Where as I am quite obvious with what I am after. But at the same time I am all about physical touch of any kind. There’s nothing like a woman’s touch. That is why I refrain from any kind of physical touch, outside of handshake, with female co-workers. Since I know that is a big trigger for me.
Marcia
I do think you’re right that to convey attraction signals it has to be more than just the eye contact/gazing. Because that on its
own is a minefield as many on here have found, and alone it can just be a warm friendly sign, nothing more.
That said I can’t dismiss the opposite (that attraction / limerence signals could come just through eye contact), as for many, barriers or shyness stop the release of other signals, but the eye contact is the last uncontrollable leakage. Not always though. And as I have seen you write here many times, signals alone without intent are basically useless to the recipient in the end.
Lovisa
yep I can relate to all that too (giving all the right signals but recipient not noticing or acting). Younger me had a couple of women make it really blatant at different times, yet I still didn’t go for it.
That would be my time travel wisdom actually – tell younger self that if there aren’t barriers, disclosure and closure either way beats endless not knowing; and if there are barriers, squash it at the point of the glimmer instead of enjoying the high and kidding myself that it won’t lead to trouble down the line!
Oh nuts, Lim-a-rant. I hope one of the other ladies can do a better job than me at identifying the signals a woman would give if she were interested in a man. I’m not happy with my answer, but here goes.
If the guy makes her nervous, she might avoid him. Let me tell you what that looks like in jr high, but really we can act like this at any age. Girl sees cute boy in the hall. Her body fills with giddy excitement and she is afraid that she will do something embarrassing in front of the cute boy. She tries to be casual when she invites her best friend to leave the area (the bathroom used to be the safest retreat zone). The two girls try to be as calm as possible as they walk towards the bathroom. When they enter the bathroom and the door closes, both girls excitedly declare, “Did you see him? Did he see us?” Then the friend recounts every detail that she can remember. Did he notice? Who was with him? Were we discrete enough that he isn’t suspicious? Seriously, every detail. As we age, we aren’t quite as excitable, but we still get the same giddy energy. We still ask the same questions, but we are doing it internally instead of talking to a friend.
If she can control her nerves around him, she will be warm and attentive. She will laugh at his jokes and agree with most of what he says and does. She will enjoy looking at him, so she’ll look at him more than she looks at other people. She might do these things to people who she sees as a friend, too. I think the best way to know if she has romantic interest is to compare her treatment of you with her treatment of others. If you get significantly more positive attention, one of two things is happening: she likes you OR she like-likes you. Girls can be so confusing.
I don’t think my response was helpful, sorry. Hopefully Bewitched or IMHO or Mila or one of the other ladies can answer the question because I can’t.
Marcia, I didn’t see your comment earlier. I agree with your response. I didn’t want to address it, but the sexual comments is spot on. We want to let him know that we like sex, but we don’t want him to think we are easy. It’s a delicate balance. Light flirting is probably a good indicator that a woman is interested unless she flirts with everyone.
The eye contact thing had me flustered because we look at what we are curious about and it isn’t usually because we are romantically interested. But we definitely look at our favorite boy as much as possible. I just don’t know how to communicate that to the guys. You handled it well.
Lim-a-rant,
“That said I can’t dismiss the opposite (that attraction / limerence signals could come just through eye contact), as for many, barriers or shyness stop the release of other signals, but the eye contact is the last uncontrollable leakage. ”
Possibly, but it’s also possible the person just likes the attention. It’s important to remember that some people flirt with almost everyone. 🙂
You can’t really tell if someone is into you unless they make some kind of move or accept yours.
Lovisa,
It is all so helpful, please don’t worry. The high school story gave me a giggle. At the moment, coming on here and chatting about it is often the better alternative to texting LO!
It comes back to this you said in the end: “If you get significantly more positive attention, one of two things is happening: she likes you OR she like-likes you. Girls can be so confusing.”
That’s like one of those ‘your plant may be going brown because of overwatering or underwatering’ things! And that’s because no-one knows – least of all kind folks in an online forum … each person and situationship is so different.
I do blatantly get more warmth from LO than other men do … but that will still most likely be down to the comfort she feels in our friendship.
Bottom line – you know enough of my story and barriers to know I won’t be taking steps to find out. DrL would say I need to become OK with / own the uncertainty, not get stuck questioning it. This is improving since I came here but still with some bad days. It shouldn’t matter in the end what my LO’s motives and feelings are, because there is no net positive outcome from knowing, and I really get that.
Still, it is fun to
muse on all this stuff. Sammy’s questions have caused me to have a good think about previous LOs and other interests, to think harder about what triggers LE in me, not just about current LO. I really want to avoid putting myself and SO through this again, so it is all good learning. Life would have been less colourful without this LE, that said!(and there is the difficulty that’s why nearly everyone here has landed up here)
Thanks again 🙂
Marcia and Lovisa you are both doing a great job giving the female perspective.
It is almost an unanswerable question, I know. Each situation is unique.
Nobody knows unless someone asks or tries directly. Without barriers, I would do one of those things. Being committed to an SO, I can’t. I have to be OK with not knowing. Mostly I now am reconciled with that, but Sammy’s case study just sent my thoughts spinning off! He will no doubt have a view or two himself!
@Lim-a-rant.
“Sammy do you think he was being narcissistic, or as described elsewhere here as a ‘sensor’ LO (loved your attention and wanted to keep it)? Or do you think it was much more innocent than that, eg because he wasn’t gay or bisexual, he just never entertained the idea that it was anything more than friendship, and just enjoyed being your friend?”
Great questions. 🤔
Now I’m out of the “love-trance”, I think on some level he did just innocently enjoy my company. But the story’s a little more complicated than that as well…
Unfortunately, I developed limerence for him, which meant my brain wanted reciprocation (of an emotional nature). I wanted him to express identical longing for me to the longing I increasingly felt for him. The friendship became painful and frustrating to me when I felt I couldn’t obtain reciprocation in the form of “mutual longing”.
I think, had I not developed limerence, I would have just innocently enjoyed this young man’s company as much as he enjoyed mine.
I felt “high” around this young man. His physical presence acted like a drug on my nervous system. I do believe pheromones in his sweat were probably a major driver for me in the attraction, and I don’t think he had much control over the way he naturally smelt/smells.
Narcissism might have played a small part in the relationship in the sense he enjoyed the fact I made a big fuss over him, a bigger fuss than I made over other males. Had I not felt “high” around this young man, I would have put much less effort into the bond. I think the amount of effort I put into the interaction may have been appealing to my LO. But I was getting a natural reward from putting in effort i.e. feeling high.
As for all the boundary-crossing behaviour such as gifts and touch and dirty jokes, had I not been limerent, I honestly don’t think I would have read into it, or worried about whether it was gay or not. Limerence made these fairly mundane gestures take on a huge significance in my mind, which perhaps they didn’t really have.
My LO actually told me, when I asked him, that men in the Bible were physically affectionate with each other all the time. (I felt guilty about the touch; he didn’t). So I don’t think the physical affection had some huge sexual component to him. To him, physical affection was innocently pleasurable, like getting a free massage. I don’t know if “a love of free massages” is inherently narcissistic. 🤣
LO wasn’t narcissistic in terms of his general personality. He did enjoy praise, but he didn’t think he was the best thing ever. (I did have another male LO who acted like that). This young man was more of a people-pleaser. He really found pleasure in helping people. I think he might have been non-limerent at the end of the day. Was he a sensor? I think “sensor” does fit the bill, yes.
He was standoffish toward other males in our grade, although he was super-popular with everyone. I think even straight men sort of fell in love with him in a platonic way. He just had something about him. But I was the only male in our friendship group he allowed close to him. I was only the only male allowed into his personal space. I think he found me non-threatening. Or he found me extremely attractive without limerence being involved on his side.
I think he was 100% heterosexual in terms of his behaviour. I think he showed what scientists call a “bisexual arousal pattern” in terms of his body’s unconscious responses to physical beauty. E.g. I think he was sweating heavily in response to me. I think his eyes dilated in response to me. I think he sought out opportunities to touch me. Maybe there was genuine physical attraction between us both?
However, for him, his attraction to males was all “under the radar”. He was unaware of the fact (and sublimely unbothered by the fact) his body was turned on by both females and a small subset of males (i.e. me!). Unlike me, he wasn’t tortured by his fleeting attractions to males, or by the fact that his sexuality naturally flowed in more than one direction. He was comfortable with his more expansive sexuality. He didn’t try to limit himself to liking just one sex out of guilt. But, behaviourally, his preference was exclusively women.
I think our friendship ended because his wife came to dislike me. (Emotional jealousy, not sexual jealousy). I think she didn’t appreciate the apparent depth of the friendship between me and LO. I think she saw me as a very irritating source of competition for her husband’s affection. I think she was limerent for her husband. (She often acted giddy around him during their courtship). I think she understandably wanted her husband to herself after they wed.
I think my LO wasn’t capable of giving his wife “evidence of mutual longing” just as he wasn’t capable of giving me “evidence of mutual longing”. I think he’s a sensor/non-limerent. However, his people-pleasing tendencies and bisexual patterns of arousal fool people into temporarily believing he can/does reciprocate on that deep level. He’s not a narcissist. He’s a victim of his own biology. He doesn’t understand his own biology (primarily heterosexual with residual traces of bisexuality probably from his distant evolutionary past).
If my LO taught me anything it’s that I don’t need to have OCD over my sexuality, since he apparently didn’t have OCD over his! 🤣
Lovisa,
“We want to let him know that we like sex, but we don’t want him to think we are easy. It’s a delicate balance”
Depends on what you’re looking for. If it’s something short-term, I don’t think it really matters. If it’s an actual relationship, I agree that a woman wants to dole it slowly.
Per your post, I agree that receiving extra attention from someone can be an indicator of interest. But then, not receiving extra attention may be a sign, as it’s easier for some women to flirt with with men they’re not interested in. There are no stakes.
The things I listed … I would not do any of those unless I was getting signs of interest from the man. That’s why I mentioned my male co-workers. I would not, for example, touch any of my co-workers. Or even flirt with them. It would be weird. We don’t have that kind of interaction.
Lim-a-rant,
“He will no doubt have a view or two himself!”
He will, and as per his usual pattern … it’s a LONG view. 🙂
Lmao Miss Marcia. I’m totally getting that you are talking about height since ladies like tall men.
Adam,
“I’m totally getting that you are talking about height since ladies like tall men.”
WHAT?! I was talking about a short-term versus a long-term relationship.
“Sexual comments. They don’t have to be graphic. More like innuendo that references the two of you.”
Even then it’s not necessarily a “signal.” If a double entendre is just sitting there begging to be made, I’ll make it, lol.
Serial Limerent,
“More like innuendo that references the two of you.””
That’s why I put the caveat “that references the two of you.” If someone makes a comment about what might happen between the themselves and you … there’s a good chance they might be interested.
@Lim-a-rant.
“… but Sammy’s case study just sent my thoughts spinning off! He will no doubt have a view or two himself!”
The consensus on Reddit was that the non-narcissistic LO girl was probably a people-pleaser who’s super-nice in general but has difficulties being assertive. Apparently, both men and women fall for her. Reading between the lines, I think her latest unwanted conquest was a female roommate! 😲
I don’t know how someone can become limerent for a roommate, because sharing living space for more than a week would definitely remove all mystery for me… 🤣
@Marcia.
“He will, and as per his usual pattern … it’s a LONG view. 🙂”
But, Marcia, I care so much about your beauty sleep. How am I reliably going to send you to sleep if I’m not unfailingly long-winded? 😁
@Adam.
“Lmao Miss Marcia. I’m totally getting that you are talking about height since ladies like tall men.”
Don’t worry, Adam. When Marcia said “long”, I thought she was talking about some other kind of length that has nothing to do with verbosity or height or relationship durations. I must have a very dirty mind. **Banishes self to naughty corner and resolves to thinketh on thoughts more salubrious** 😜
Sammy Sams,
“But, Marcia, I care so much about your beauty sleep. How am I reliably going to send you to sleep if I’m not unfailingly long-winded? 😁”
Your posts are more effective than Ambien or passages of “Moby-Dick.” 🙂
“Don’t worry, Adam. When Marcia said “long”, I thought she was talking about some other kind of length that has nothing to do with verbosity or height or relationship durations. ”
Your misinterpretation is less awful because no woman worth her salt cares about how tall a man is. If things go well, she won’t be standing up for long. Get it? Do I need to spell it out? 🙂
@Marcia: I’m thinking back to some really racy exchanges I’ve had with guys online, lol…but we were just playing around. 🙂
@Marcia.
“Your posts are more effective than Ambien or passages of “Moby-Dick.” 🙂”
It’s an honour just to be compared to the likes of … Moby Dick. Say, wasn’t Moby Dick a … sperm whale. I do love a good story about … seamen. Where can I read the next … instalment? What do you mean all these metaphors have become a little too … literal? 😆
Goodness gracious, this conversation really is going badly off-course. Reminds me of that time I kindly offered to help a young lady in my local library branch find a book about **cough, cough** liver IMPLANTS. It wasn’t my finest moment. No, no, no. 🙄😊
“Your misinterpretation is less awful because no woman worth her salt cares about how tall a man is. If things go well, she won’t be standing up for long. Get it? Do I need to spell it out? 🙂”
Maybe you’ll get further with your menagerie of gentlemen friends, if you shout “Get it? Get it?” at the end of every sentence? I don’t think you need to spell it out. **wink, wink, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, nudge, nudge** Have you considered brushing up on your winking skills? Maybe your powers of winking are a little rusty? 🙂
Serial Limerent,
“@Marcia: I’m thinking back to some really racy exchanges I’ve had with guys online, lol…but we were just playing around. 🙂”
So you never met them IRL? I don’t really know much about online. Someone can be attracted to you but have no intention of ever doing anything about it.
As I wrote, you really don’t know until someone makes a move.
OMG, and then there’s the passage where the seamen are processing the sperm (oil) and feeling very happy doing it….And Ishmael and his friend were *very* cozy with each other….And then I learn that the author was probably gay….lol
@Marcia Some I had, some I hadn’t. It’s part of the online chat and gamer culture. 🙂
Sammy Sams,
“It’s an honour just to be compared to the likes of … Moby Dick. Say, wasn’t Moby Dick a … sperm whale. I do love a good story about … seamen. ”
Ha! You picked up on my thought process! When I was in college, we renamed the book “Mobile D**k.” You know … it has to keep moving. 🙂
“Maybe your powers of winking are a little rusty? 🙂”
They are. They’re quite rusty. 🙂
Serial,
“OMG, and then there’s the passage where the seamen are processing the sperm (oil) and feeling very happy doing it”
I mean … don’t they sign up to be on a boat for years with only other men?
“Some I had, some I hadn’t. It’s part of the online chat and gamer culture. 🙂”
Ah, ok. So it’s it flirting just to flirt?
I’m old. I’d rather do nothing. I only have so much energy left. 🙂
“I’ve been thinking about MJ’s lady friend. I suspect she believes that she has found a genuine friend in MJ and she is going to let her guard down a lot because she trusts that he is satisfied with friendship. I think if MJ expresses romantic interest in her, it’s going to confuse her.”
This has been an interesting thread to read through. Since I saw my name being thrown around, I thought I would reply to this.
@Lovisa, you would be correct that I feel like Lady Friend has let her guard down somewhat. Both of us have become more comfortable in each other’s presence these last few months and I can tell she becomes very relaxed around me sometimes when she tells me her stories. Our Friendship is mainly just that. It’s not that I am not satisfied with it. I do have a tendency to leak some crush-like feelings every now and then. About a month ago she was telling me about how much she likes Dr. Pepper. She usually has one in her backpack. I on the other hand, am a Pepsi drinker and I’ve told her this. She’s seen me drink them. So about 2 weeks later after that discussion, I went and got a Dr. Pepper from one of the machines and walked up to her on break drinking it. She looked at me a little confused, smiled and asked me why I was drinking Dr. Pepper. I told her it was because I like them too. She said “You like Pepsi” and then added “You can’t do that, Dr. Pepper is my thing.” And I said, “well maybe I want it to be my thing too” and she says, “I’ll be the one that decides that.” I thought the exchange was cute and sweet. That’s usually how our conversations are. I try to be obvious but not too obvious. I think she picks up on my leaks, but I don’t do it in the hopes of throwing her into confusion.
I guess you could say I also do it because I know she is coming off from a 10 year relationship she had with a Guy. I’d kinda like to be a unique relationship opportunity for her to consider, that perhaps she never considered before. So that maybe she won’t have to look too far for a special someone.
I never really have too high of an expectation though because just having her as a Friend right now is so satisfying. Considering friendship like that with LO was only a dream. The failure of LO helps me to appreciate Lady Friend and it feels right to be in a place with this person that doesn’t leave me feeling so doubtful like I felt being in the throes of limerence.
@Marcia.
“Ha! You picked up on my thought process! When I was in college, we renamed the book “Mobile D**k.” You know … it has to keep moving. 🙂”
Anyone who has ever worked in the field of education knows that the minds of teenagers tend toward pure filth. Teachers must develop their own arsenal of tricks to prevent riots breaking out before the day has even begun. Even in a subject as unsexy as Maths, there are certain things that a teacher can never say. 🙂
(1) Never can the correct answer to any equation be “69”.
(2) No student can ever be asked to calculate the diameter or the circumference of a “ball”. The type of ball must always be specified e.g. football, soccer ball, basketball. Mention of a ball-ball is a rabbit hole you don’t want to fall down…
(3) When drawing up alphabetised lists, the letter “V” must be avoided at all costs. Also, never write this capitalised letter on blackboard/whiteboard. (Lest loud snickers from teenage boys ensue).
Source: Anonymous Maths teacher on Reddit.
(4) In Music lessons, one is advised to steer clear of the topic of G-strings. During guitar practice, one should certainly never admit that one broke one’s G-string, and ask loudly for a replacement.
(5) Don’t say “bits” on assembly, even if you’re addressing the student body on school uniform policy e.g. “Make sure you have all your bits tidy and in order for Awards Night”. Students will assume you’re talking about “bits” of a non-sartorial nature and much hilarity will follow. Our headmaster almost got laughed off stage one year.
Source: Memories of my own schooldays. 🙂
Sammy Sams,
“Anyone who has ever worked in the field of education knows that the minds of teenagers tend toward pure filth. ”
I am NOT embarrassed to admit I read “Mobile D**k” in my early 20s! 🙂 And I still find the joke funny.
Agree with everything you wrote … 69, ball, bits … will erupt (get it, erupt) the student body into waves (get it, waves) of laughter. 🙂
“Source: Memories of my own schooldays. 🙂”
Ah, so the young Sammy was a ribald jokester! 🙂
@Marcia.
“Ah, so the young Sammy was a ribald jokester! 🙂”
No, I wasn’t a ribald jokester – not by any stretch of the imagination. I was purer than the driven snow – apart from my sexy accent.
People used to apologise for using swear words around me. I had an “aura of holiness” about me. 🙄
Ironically, I was attracted to the boys and the occasional girl who WERE ribald jokesters because I liked their fun energy, and I did get most of the punchlines even if I didn’t visibly show it. My sense of humour has never not been intact, even if people around me were/are quick to classify me as prudish and/or painfully conventional. 😁
More irony: for some reason, my peers decided I was the perfect receptacle for salacious gossip. I sort of became the unofficial archivist of all the school’s off-colour jokes and dirty stories. And then I have OCD – so, decades later, I remember every lurid detail. 😜
In other news, I got paid a NOICE (that’s “nice” spoken in an Australian accent) compliment the other day. Two old men on the train looked me up and down and one said to the other in relation to me: “He must think he’s Robert Redford!”
I’ll take a win when I can get it. I think the old men were referencing my broad-brimmed hat, my shirt-jacket-in-one, my beard. I dress like Robert Bedford does in some of his movies such as “Out of Africa”. However, Redford in his heyday was known as one of the handsomest men alive, so I’m not disputing comparisons! 🙂
Also, I watched Agatha Christie’s “Murder on the Orient Express” last night. Some good lines:
Femme fatale: “Eyes linger any longer, and I’ll have to charge rent!”
Dashing rake: “I’ll pay…”
Hercule Poirot: “Romance never goes unpunished, mon ami…”
Sammy Sams,
” Two old men on the train looked me up and down and one said to the other in relation to me: “He must think he’s Robert Redford!” … I dress like Robert Redford does in some of his movies such as “Out of Africa”.”
You look like Robert Redford?!! And you’re just telling us that NOW? That’s called burying the lead, son! 🙂 He was so hot in “Out of Africa.” When he washes her hair and recites “Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner.”
“I was purer than the driven snow”
I’m sorry to hear that. 🙂
I was very painfully green in my younger years, too. Although I was dying for someone to come along and change that but was so shy and awkward, I had no idea how to lure it over to me. 🙂
“Ironically, I was attracted to the boys and the occasional girl who WERE ribald jokesters”
Everybody is. 🙂 (I’m joking. Not everyone is.)
“More irony: for some reason, my peers decided I was the perfect receptacle for salacious gossip. I sort of became the unofficial archivist of all the school’s off-colour jokes and dirty stories. And then I have OCD – so, decades later, I remember every lurid detail. 😜”
Were you the person they told all their secrets to?
Some of the best lines are spoken by Madonna in “Dick Tracy.”
“I was beginning to wonder what a girl had to do to get arrested.”
“Dick. That’s an interesting name.”
“Are you going to make a move or do I have to do everything?”
@Marcia.
“That’s called burying the lead, son! 🙂”
I like the way you phrase that. Burying the lead indeed. 🤣
“Were you the person they told all their secrets to?”
Apparently so. 🙄
Apparently, people are much more likely to confide their deepest, darkest secrets in the town nun than in the town woman of easy virtue. Although I don’t like being known as a nun. The word “nun” implies I might be getting “none”, as one Miss Blanche Devereaux shrewdly divines. I much prefer the term “spinster”. 😁
“Dick. That’s an interesting name.”
Madonna wasn’t exactly famed for subtlety. If this is the calibre of line she was expected to deliver, (Is there any way an actress can say this line without sounding unbelievable?), I’m beginning to understand why critics universally panned her acting. 🤣🤣🤣
Sammy Sams,
“The word “nun” implies I might be getting “none”, as one Miss Blanche Devereaux shrewdly divines”
That was a line of hers that I posted on here a few weeks ago. To you! Don’t reuse my line! 🙂
“I much prefer the term “spinster”. 😁”
Really? I hate it. It’s as bad as Adam’s “gal.” 🙂 The gal, who’s a spinster, is wearing pantyhose, holding her pocketbook and sitting on the davenport. 🙂 What other old-fashioned words can we use? Pshaw! 🙂
“If this is the calibre of line she was expected to deliver”
It’s supposed to be funny.
“(Is there any way an actress can say this line without sounding unbelievable?)”
It’s not supposed to be believable. The movie is based on a comic strip.
“I’m beginning to understand why critics universally panned her acting.”
I’d agree she’s not a great actress, but she was fine in Dick Tracy. And she was good in the first movie she was in: Desperately Seeking Susan.
@Marcia.
“That was a line of hers that I posted on here a few weeks ago. To you! Don’t reuse my line! 🙂”
How else will you know I read what you write? 😆
“Really? I hate it. It’s as bad as Adam’s “gal.” 🙂 The gal, who’s a spinster, is wearing pantyhose, holding her pocketbook and sitting on the davenport. 🙂 What other old-fashioned words can we use? Pshaw! 🙂”
Have you tried saying it with an Australian accent? Everything sounds better with an exotic accent. 😁
“It’s supposed to be funny.
It’s not supposed to be believable. The movie is based on a comic strip.”
Yes, I know the story/dialogue in Dick Tracey is meant to be camp. Keeping that in mind, I don’t think Madonna was a bad casting choice – not at all. She seems a natural for the film. But, honestly, I couldn’t some of the lines while keeping a straight face. 😉
“I’d agree she’s not a great actress, but she was fine in Dick Tracy. And she was good in the first movie she was in: Desperately Seeking Susan.”
I think even Madonna’s dad – not usually a fan of her work – was very proud of her turn in Dick Tracey. 😉
I think some of Madonna’s bad reviews had more to do with critics being jealous of her massive popularity than with any truly awful performances. Sometimes, it’s cool to knock people when they’re at the peak of their success. Madonna should be commended for trying a lot of different things. But I think she did some things better than others.
Sammy Sams,
“How else will you know I read what you write? 😆”
Well played! 🙂
“Everything sounds better with an exotic accent. 😁”
Very true. I was just watching a movie the other day with actor Simon Baker, who’s Australian. He’s really hot but the accent puts him over the edge … to almost obscene. 🙂
“Yes, I know the story/dialogue in Dick Tracey is meant to be camp. ”
Yes, exactly. It’s camp.
“Keeping that in mind, I don’t think Madonna was a bad casting choice – not at all. She seems a natural for the film. ”
She was, but I think she could have camped it up even more.
I went to see the movie in the theater when it came out and men howled when she was first on screen.
“I think even Madonna’s dad – not usually a fan of her work – was very proud of her turn in Dick Tracey. 😉”
That’s because she was fully dressed. 🙂 And also the movie has a 1940s, film-noir quality.
“I think some of Madonna’s bad reviews had more to do with critics being jealous of her massive popularity than with any truly awful performances. Sometimes, it’s cool to knock people when they’re at the peak of their success. ”
That’s true. We build people up, only to knock them down. Martin Amis wrote that Madonna isn’t greatly gifted or deeply beautiful. There’s some truth to that, but he missed the point. It’s her confidence.
@Sammy
hmm, interesting. The one common thing I would pick out of that story to my personal experience is shyness and/or insecure is a common theme. Then normally highly intelligent, and I think I end up projecting a rich internal life onto them… I feel like the LO is often a trigger for personal reasons, but then becomes a bit of a blank canvas, so am wondering if there can really be a typical LO. I think for that there would have to be a typical Limerent. But maybe there are traits that allow it to get out of hand? i.e. if people are very shy, or closed off, it allows the Limerent to build their own fantasies much more easily without reality rudely interrupting.
Since I discovered this website/concept I have been thinking a lot about my (mostly male) friends to work out if any of them ever experienced limerence. I can recall one friend who 100% had a limerent episode for a housemate of mine, and two friends where I would say maybe, but more likely attachment issues. I’ve never had female friends who were close enough to me that they would have confided in me if they were going.
The only reason I think that is relevant to your point here is that my friend is very different to me, and so was his LO to my ‘typical’ LO (although we are talking about a sample size of 2-3 here).
@Heebie Jeebies.
“hmm, interesting. The one common thing I would pick out of that story to my personal experience is shyness and/or insecure is a common theme. Then normally highly intelligent, and I think I end up projecting a rich internal life onto them… I feel like the LO is often a trigger for personal reasons, but then becomes a bit of a blank canvas, so am wondering if there can really be a typical LO.”
Thank you for your feedback. The “blank canvas” theory is certainly interesting, but I’m not sure if any canvas is truly as blank as it appears. I think all of our so-called “blank canvases” are rather busy canvases actually borrowed from childhood. 😜
I realise my most potent LO – he was a close match for my father in terms of both psychology and physiology. (Dad smelt truly amazing, too. Dad was irresistible to everyone, especially to women and children, but not a narcissist. Dad was almost disturbingly generous with time and money).
As a little boy, I had an other-worldly connection with my dad. (Both on the autism spectrum). I totally got him and he totally got me. I felt like he didn’t need or want me to be anyone else other than who I am. Of course, there was never-ending affection, and such affection was totally normal I feel because, well, we were father and son. (Mum didn’t have the patience to feed me or to hold me. She thought I “took too long” at everything).
I think with my high-school LO, I was just re-enacting my childhood relationship with my dad. And yes, it was great fun for both of us. 😁
I think my motivation for understanding limerence is to try and understand why my father couldn’t satisfy my mother’s romantic feelings when he definitely could satisfy mine. My interest in limerence = wanting to rescue my mother from her pain by finding a plausible explanation for her pain.
I think the short answer is: my mother’s LO, (my father), is a non-limerent. My father couldn’t satisfy my mother’s limerent yearnings because he’s a non-limerent. Non-limerents are probably much less hung up on gender norms and sexual norms than people who are limerent. Non-limerent just love people in an almost generic way, and don’t really analyse all the nitty-gritty, because they’re not wired that way. They don’t obsess over what everything might mean. They don’t worry too much what others think. 🙂
I think my mother couldn’t fathom how everyone in my father’s life could be so happy with my father when she wasn’t. I see the same dynamic play out in the relationship between my high school LO and his wife.
I think in both situations, the wife entered the marriage assuming the husband is a fellow limerent. Then, only after marriage, did the woman come to the uncomfortable realisation that the husband is a non-limerent and will never reciprocate the passion she expects him to reciprocate. All subsequent marital spats are about non-reciprocation of passion. 😉
I’ve come up with a new working definition of LO (based on my own life experience):
A limerent object, (LO), is someone I/one can’t voluntarily get let go of. 🙂
“A limerent object, (LO), is someone I/one can’t voluntarily get let go of. 🙂”
Oopsie. That came out a bit wrong… 😊😆😆
My conscious brain wanted to say: “a limerent object is someone one can’t voluntarily let go of”. 😉
My subconscious brain wanted to say: “a limerent object is someone one can’t get AND ALSO someone one can’t voluntarily let go of”. 😉
Sammy – starting new thread as it has got messy above. But this is to say thanks for putting your stuff out there in such detail in response to my question about what you thought your LOs motives were.
I read the post several times trying to understand. Wow, it is complicated!
So in my attempt at summary – your XLO can be aroused by anyone (woman or man) but denies the same-sex side of it (consciously or unconsciously, i’m not sure) and basically plays out a hetero existence. But he also enjoys attention and you got behind those walls so that he could be comfortable with letting some same-sex attraction ‘be’, without maybe fully admitting to himself that was what was happening. Fair summary?
A lot to unpack in that story!
@Lim-a-rant.
“So in my attempt at summary – your XLO can be aroused by anyone (woman or man) but denies the same-sex side of it (consciously or unconsciously, i’m not sure) and basically plays out a hetero existence. But he also enjoys attention and you got behind those walls so that he could be comfortable with letting some same-sex attraction ‘be’, without maybe fully admitting to himself that was what was happening. Fair summary?”
Nope. 🤣
Neither I nor my male LO ever tried to hide any physical attraction that may have existed between us from the world. I mean, I used to snuggle with him in the lunchbreak in front of his HS girlfriend. And she didn’t mind at all, because she didn’t see me as a sexual threat. She KNEW she alone held the key to his heart.
My LO and I were alone together behind closed doors many times. Nothing sexual ever happened. There was no explosive passion there waiting to be unlocked under the right circumstances. He wasn’t a closet anything… 🙄🤣🤣😜
The point I was trying to make is that only a limerent (someone with a super-OCD brain who was teetering on the brink of infatuation) would even try to make sense of the situation. Limerence is like a ridiculous mental obsession. 😁
To a non-limerent, there’s just nothing to analyse. Whatever happened, it was just a fun high school friendship, boys will be boys, etc, etc. I see teenage boys with very close friendships roaming the streets like lovers all the time. It’s just the paranoid prude in me that worried that this friendship was somehow “immoral”.
I only analysed the situation to death because (a) I was worried I might have been in love with my friend and wasn’t sure whether that was really appropriate and (b) because Christianity holds so many prohibitions against sexuality, especially the “wrong” kinds of sexuality, my brain was working overtime to understand the very complicated arena of human sexuality in general. 😉
I was looking for fast answers to questions that don’t really have answers, let alone right or wrong answers. You could say my limerence here had nothing to do with my LO and everything to do with my teenage religious guilt over sexuality. I was the one being “neurotic” and not my LO. My LO felt 100% guilt-free about his friendship with me. He wasn’t gay. (If he were gay or curious in any way, I’d definitely be happy to explore that with him. And I think he would have been happy to explore than with me too, since he was so comfortable with me, both emotionally and physically. He just didn’t have any true sexual interest in males). If “no true sexual interest in males” = straight, I guess he was a straight man. 😇
On the other hand, he wasn’t antigay. He wasn’t homophobic on either a biological level or a cultural level, despite being a fundie Christian. He enjoyed physical contact with me, and attention too, but never came across as bisexual or bicurious. He had no problem with me or with any aspect of our interaction. Come to think of it, I think he just genuinely liked me as a human being!! 😲
People have a lot of different sexual turn-ons and turn-offs. I guess a “turn-on” for me, at least at one point in my life, was pheromones contained in male sweat. But only a tiny percentage of males seemed to possess the “right smell”.
An immunologist would say right/wrong smells relate to women’s need to track a man who can give her diverse genes that will ensure her baby has the healthiest immune system possible. Scent can guide a woman to a healthy male partner whose genes (combined with her own genes) are going to make a healthy baby.
If we’re talking purely physical attraction, scent may be a much-overlooked factor in what can attract a heterosexual female powerfully to a given male partner, and prefer to start a sexual relationship with him over countless other men. Scent may help a woman make up her mind over who she wants for pair-bonding purposes.
Why do I, as a male, sometimes think some men smell sexy, is hard to say. Unless, as Camille Paglia argues, I’m just “caught up in my mother’s Eros”. I.e. the smells my mother likely found sexy I also find sexy. (I was very close to my mother growing up, and had trouble “breaking away” from her emotionally). My mother unconsciously thought my dad smelled great. I, as a much more self-aware person, consciously think my dad smells great. And men who smell similar to my dad smell great also. 😆
Here’s where the story gets even weirder: I am turned on by my own body odour too. I’m not just attracted to other men’s male scent. I attracted to my own male scent. I think this is an area where straight men and “complex” men significantly differ in terms of arousal.
I.e. I am turned on by my own reflection (physical image) in the mirror and by the way I smell. If I told this to a straight male friend, he would look at me as if I were insane. Straight men usually aren’t aroused by their OWN bodies and their OWN pheromones. But they ARE very interested in a woman’s body (visually) and a woman’s pheromones. I seem to have some sort of deep erotic investment in myself whereas I think straight men invest all their erotic energy in the woman they’re seeing. (Heterosexual and bisexual women have also been known to objectify themselves, and to be turned on by their own charms in addition to a partner’s).
Basically, as a gay man, this is how I think heterosexuality works. (Feel free to contradict me if I’m wrong, or to add to my insights with complementary insights of your own). Men are aroused by women. Women are NOT aroused by men, strictly speaking. Women are aroused by being DESIRED by men. The most powerful aphrodisiac for a woman is a man’s desire for her.
Men want women and women want to be wanted by men. Sounds a bit unfair if you ask me, but it is what it is. Heterosexuality may be innately unfair i.e. men have to work a lot harder for women’s approval than women have to work for men’s approval. The so-called patriarchy is nothing more sinister than men working hard (to accumulate wealth and status) for women’s approval.
My LO? Honestly, I think he was just a very sweet guy. He was a good listener. He seemed able to “see” people and “hear” people when he interacted with them. The fact he was comfortable with my unmistakably male anatomy was just an added bonus. But, you know, he grew up with two brothers. Maybe male bodies just weren’t much of a novelty to him? Conversely, I was an only son. 🙄🤣
I think I was limerencing over this male. (Or – another possibility – I was limerencing over some other male while friends with this male, and my horrible mood swings were bleeding into both friendships and undermining both friendships). However, I don’t think either male was limerencing over me. 😊
Maybe physical closeness was mildly pleasurable for this chap in a sensual way? However, it wasn’t pleasurable for him in a limerent way. (Mild sensual pleasure and limerent euphoria are not the same thing. Apples and oranges, really). He might have been getting a very low dose of generic-touch-related pleasure, but he wasn’t getting limerent gratification.
In other words, my LO enjoyed his friendship with me, and his friendship with many individuals of both sexes, but he didn’t crave me. I may have been special to him in the sense of being one of his closest friends, but I wasn’t his “drug of choice”. Our bond wasn’t painful for him. If he had romantic feelings for me, those romantic feelings were mild and they were fleeting and for him they were a totally normal and utterly benign part of adolescence. There simply wasn’t anything shocking going on between us (from his perspective anyway). 🙂
People-pleasing tendencies = he did admit to having these. (Might be the explanation why he was so nice).
Bisexual arousal patterns = I think I’m just talking about myself here, and then projecting onto former LO. I experience whole-body arousal, you know? Not just arousal in one specific (The Netherlands?) area. My entire body tends to come “alive” in response to appropriate stimuli. I’m like some extra-terrestrial lifeform – I have pleasure receptors everywhere. My sexual response isn’t a purely male sexual response, which is why I feel a little ill-at-ease around straight men – I’m not really the same as them. I think my LO’s sexual response was a purely male sexual response. (More Netherlands, less Extra-terrestrial from Outer Space). 🤣
Fair summary: LO didn’t have any motives. He was just a straight dude being a straight dude. Straight men can be absolutely lovely. Golly gee, who knew? 😁
Sammy Sams,
“Men are aroused by women. Women are NOT aroused by men, strictly speaking. Women are aroused by being DESIRED by men. ”
To an extent, yes. But I’d say I really wanted my LO. Desired him. Was aroused by him. Definitely. Wanted to get up on him and smell him. 🙂 Some of that was triggered by what I perceived was his interest in me, but it wasn’t entirely based on that. Does that make me a man? 🙂
@Marcia.
“Does that make me a man? 🙂”
No, of course not, Marcia. Don’t ask silly questions, dear. 🙂
I did say people were allowed to add their own knowledge to my own, so we can get the fullest picture possible…
I do think, however, if we paint the picture in the broadest strokes possible, and leave out room for individual nuance, it does seem to me that heterosexuality does involve males in hot pursuit (the male default position?) and females choosing to respond to that pursuit in a variety of different ways – whether it be mutual pursuit, feigned pursuit, feigned retreat, or genuine retreat. 🤔
Except in brutal premodern societies where female choice is not upheld, and males impose their will on females by force, the power of sexual veto always rests with the female and the power of pair-bonding veto too. I.e. females may not always attract the man they want, and they may not always be able to marry the man they want, but they can always reject the many men they don’t want. 😉
“But I’d say I really wanted my LO. Desired him. Was aroused by him. Definitely. Wanted to get up on him and smell him. 🙂 Some of that was triggered by what I perceived was his interest in me, but it wasn’t entirely based on that.”
If all this is true, then a woman who feels this way must be exceptionally cunning to make sure that the RIGHT man is pursuing her. She must find a way to signal her interest to the correct target.
This exercise could backfire spectacularly because: (1) the correct target may be indifferent, (2) the correct target may be interested but unobservant, (3) other males may pick up on the female signal and think it’s about them instead, putting the woman in a very awkward position, (4) the woman may be signalling a man society says is ineligible for such signals, since he is already spoken for.
Let’s talk about teenagers since teenagers make such great examples. From what I’ve observed, teenage females seem to daydream over teenage males a lot, but are reluctant to approach teenage males. Perhaps it’s not that females aren’t aroused by males to the extent that males are aroused by females. Perhaps it’s just females don’t wish to make too flagrant a display of desire, because females want the male to risk rejection/social embarrassment should romantic negotiations ultimately prove unsuccessful? (Teenage girls are shrewd social animals. But they are also the great cowards of the high school dating scene). 🙄🤣
Heterosexuality puts men in an awful bind i.e. men who want a serious relationship usually have to prove to society (and to women) that they, the men, are worthy. But heterosexuality also puts women in an awful bind too, as I think you or someone else mentioned. A woman must deploy her charms to attract multiple eligible men and yet ideally she’s only allowed to choose one.
When a woman is obliged to deploy her charms to attract multiple men – most of whom she must reject – this seeming “false display of interest/attraction” on the part of the female does create resentment among the males rejected. Also, rejected males may come to resent the successful male and wish to cast aspersions on his name. (Clearly, he won by cheating, for how can he be objectively more desirable than the other contenders?) 🤔
Also, there’s the question of how “natural” heterosexuality is in modern contexts. For example, does culture shape the way men and women go about pursuing each other? From what I’ve observed in high school, which presumably was a fairly unbiased environment, heterosexuality – at least in its initial stages – did seem like a collaborative, egalitarian exercise between males and females.
In other words, adolescent males and adolescent females were working together to find ways to be together, and the common enemy was seen as “the authorities” in the form of parents. teachers, etc. I don’t know if males and females change mating habits once they’re fully adult and no longer answerable to “the authorities” of their youth? I don’t know if one sex becomes more dominant, or whether the sexes take turns at being dominant?
One article I read suggested male homosexuality exists because apparently it allows the females in a given population greater choice in the mating market. I don’t know if this is because gay males aren’t competing for women? (I don’t follow the logic of this because fewer eligible males = fewer men for women to pick from).
I don’t know if the mere presence of gay men makes a social environment feel safer for women, even if straight men are also present? (When gay men are present, women feel confident enough to stand up to straight men who make overly aggressive sexual advances?) I don’t know if gay men exert some subtle calming effect on the straight men around them? But in some weird way, the existence of gay men does make the world more hospitable and less stressful for females – at least according to this article. 🙂
Have I sent you to sleep yet? 🙂
Sammy Sams,
” Don’t ask silly questions, dear. 🙂”
I’m gonna let that slide because you look like Robert Redford. 🙂
“I do think, however, if we paint the picture in the broadest strokes possible, and leave out room for individual nuance, it does seem to me that heterosexuality does involve males in hot pursuit (the male default position?) and females choosing to respond to that pursuit in a variety of different ways – whether it be mutual pursuit, feigned pursuit, feigned retreat, or genuine retreat. 🤔”
Yes, I think there’s a lot of truth to this. But I’d also add that secure people, whether men or women, don’t pursue. They show interest, but if the person they’re interested in starts playing hot and cold or hard to get, they put their attention elsewhere. Limerence isn’t a healthy mating response. It’s not healthy to keep going up to bat for someone who is giving mixed or hard-to-read signals.
“of sexual veto always rests with the female and the power of pair-bonding veto too.”
Sexual veto, yes, but pair-bonding rests (and I’m speaking in broad strokes) with the man. Women are the gatekeepers to sex; men to commitment.
“If all this is true, then a woman who feels this way must be exceptionally cunning to make sure that the RIGHT man is pursuing her. She must find a way to signal her interest to the correct target.”
Women have been signaling the men they want for centuries. At the turn of the century (not this most recent century, the one before that) … and Adam can attest to this more 🙂 …. women would drop their handkerchief near the guy they wanted so he’d pick it up. It’s no different than, “Oh, I didn’t know you were going to be at this school activity. I’ll just sit next to you.”
“This exercise could backfire spectacularly because: (1) the correct target may be indifferent, (2) the correct target may be interested but unobservant, (4) the woman may be signaling a man society says is ineligible for such signals, since he is already spoken for.”
It’s not different than a man showing interest in a woman. He could encounter all these scenarios.
“(3) other males may pick up on the female signal and think it’s about them instead, putting the woman in a very awkward position”
Nah. With my LO, I aimed most of my attention at him. I don’t think it was hard to interpret he was the one I was interested in.
“Perhaps it’s just females don’t wish to make too flagrant a display of desire, because females want the male to risk rejection/social embarrassment should romantic negotiations ultimately prove unsuccessful?”
I think that’s true in general, not just of teenage girls. Women tend to be much more subtle in their display of interest. Society will judge them if they’re too forward, and women are told from an early age that men are the ones who approach and initiate. She’s seen as tacky or desperate if she does too much.
“But they are also the great cowards of the high school dating scene). 🙄🤣”
No more so than teenage boys.
“Heterosexuality puts men in an awful bind i.e. men who want a serious relationship usually have to prove to society (and to women) that they, the men, are worthy. ”
I don’t see it that way. Most women want a commitment. Heterosexual men have what women want.
“When a woman is obliged to deploy her charms to attract multiple men – most of whom she must reject – this seeming “false display of interest/attraction” on the part of the female does create resentment among the males rejected.”
Why does she need to attract multiple men if she knows which guy she wants? I mean, there may be women who like to have a lot of options and don’t know ]who they want. But if you’re asking me … as a general rule … I usually had my eye on someone, back in the day. If a different guy approached me, that didn’t create an opportunity for him. (Not always, but as a general rule.)
“For example, does culture shape the way men and women go about pursuing each other?”
Most definitely. It shapes gender, too. To certain extent, gender is ingrained; to a certain extent, I think it’s a performance.
” I don’t know if one sex becomes more dominant, or whether the sexes take turns at being dominant?”
I don’t think so. I don’t think one side has any more power than the other. It only feels that way if you can’t get the person you want.
“I don’t know if gay men exert some subtle calming effect on the straight men around them? But in some weird way, the existence of gay men does make the world more hospitable and less stressful for females – at least according to this article. 🙂”
I think there can be a deep friendship between gay men and women because sex isn’t on the table. Gore Vidal said, “It is very easy to sustain a relationship when sex plays no part, and impossible when it does.” Apparently, he and his lifelong partner had sex, but not with each other. If you watched that recent series “Capote vs. the Swans,” about writer Truman Capote and the high-society women he befriended, Capote was closest to a woman named Babe Paley. And (from what the series infers), Truman was her big love. It wasn’t her husband.
“Have I sent you to sleep yet? 🙂”
Best night’s sleep I’ve had in years. 🙂