One of the commonest ways of interpreting limerence is to view it through the lens of attachment theory. This obviously makes good sense, because limerence is clearly a mental state focused to an extraordinary degree on trying to secure romantic attachment.
As previously noted, a simplistic reading of the situation is that the symptoms of limerence map perfectly onto an anxious attachment style. During limerence, we are desperate to be close to our limerent objects, want reciprocation of limerent feeling more than anything else in the world, and our moods can fly like a giddy Icarus, or crash like… a falling Icarus, depending on their affections.
The reason I think this is a little simplistic is that the limerence attachment is unique and impermanent. For many limerents, the other attachments in their life are profoundly different.
I get countless emails from people who have had happy, securely attached lives with long-term partners that they love and have bonded with, only to be completely blindsided by the sudden appearance of someone who sends them way off-kilter into an anxious, limerent attachment. Similarly, many folks report a life of aloofness and self-sufficiency (characteristic of avoidant attachments), but suffer agonies of doubt because they cannot escape the emotional need for an LO who they both crave and fear.
Limerence also passes. Some people suffer for decades, but usually this is when they have been trapped in a limbo of uncertainty. If the limerence is confronted directly – either by outright rejection, or by consummation – then limerent symptoms pass. Eventually. At that point, the anxious attachment behaviour dissipates for the many limerents who don’t generally have that attachment style. They revert to the secure or avoidant styles that characterise their daily lives.
What I’m arguing is that the limerent anxious attachment can be a transient condition, just like the other features of the altered mental state of limerence. Limerents are not all normally optimistic, gregarious people, but we can feel that way during the euphoria phase of early limerence.
Limerence for the anxiously attached
All that said, there are obviously also some limerents who do have a naturally anxious attachment style. For them, unfortunately, limerence can be a real torment – and especially if they become limerent for a avoidant LO.
For anxious attachment limerents, when the LO pulls away, it is a real problem. Not only is the limerence drive screaming in panic, but the deep wounds from early life that destabilised their attachments are also reopened. For stably attached limerents, the panic caused by LO withdrawal is unusual – a part of the strangeness of limerence and so seen in that context. For anxiously attached limerents, it’s normal to feel that way when fearing rejection. But limerence amplifies it even further.
That will really do a number on your psychology. An LO going cold causes all the immediate physiological effects of panic, and exacerbates all the slow burn insecurities about abandonment.
Avoidants make powerful LOs
One of the bitter ironies of romantic life is that people with “complementary pathologies” are often drawn to each other. The tendency to replay – or relive – the patterns of bonding that we experience in childhood is thought to explain this apparently self-destructive behaviour. If your anxious tendencies were formed by unreliable caregivers, an avoidant LO will at some level feel right. Or at least familiar.
That means that avoidant and anxious people can get caught in a mutually dependent, unhealthy trap. Here’s a School of Life video that does a good job of summarising the scenario:
Repeated rounds of that sort of hot-and-cold bonding will also reinforce the neural systems that underpin limerence. Uncertainty is a major factor in amplifying limerence. Every time an anxious limerent tries to escape an avoidant LO only for them to suddenly turn on the charm, the unpredictable rewards of them finally showing affection will churn up all the old limerent hopes again.
What can be done?
The prescription from the School of Life video is to understand how your attachment style is affecting your own, and your partner’s, behaviour. Increased self-awareness about where your emotions are coming from and how they motivate you to behave is essential to breaking the old habits that limit your life.
A key insight is that (for the most part) no-one is being deliberately manipulative in this situation. Both anxious and avoidant are behaving naturally, or at least instinctively. The problem is that their behaviour is directed by feelings that are then rationalised, rather than analysed. Both people feel a loss of control and anxiety, but one responds by seeking comfort, the other by fleeing intimacy.
The way to break this habit is to intervene between experiencing those instinctive feelings and acting on them. The executive brain needs to step in and call a halt to behaviour before you have properly understood why you are feeling what you are feeling. This is an area where psychotherapy can really help.
Being able to openly talk about your deep insecurities with a trusted advisor is incredibly valuable for uncovering hidden truths. However, delving back into the past and identifying the origins of your attachment profile can be unsettling and destabilising work and is best done with support. The rapport between therapist and client is key to success with this approach, more so it seems than the actual psychotherapeutic approach adopted.
While this process is essential to understanding why you are attracted to particular people, and what it is about them that triggers limerence in you, it is not in itself a solution. Knowing the origin of your pain is not enough to stop feeling it, and it is also not always enough to change your behaviour. To move beyond the cycle of repeatedly becoming limerent for avoidant LOs, you also need to develop the habits of mind that resist rather than reinforce limerence.
This is where deprogramming methods can be most useful for turning down the intensity of the limerent feeling, and giving yourself the mental space needed to start making better decisions and restore emotional equilibrium. Combine that with the resolve to live a more purposeful life going forward, and you can better manage a current limerent emergency and stop future episodes before they escalate into obsessive infatuation.
The two pronged approach of understanding your own personal history and the neuroscience of limerence reinforcement is the best way to ultimately free yourself from learned habits that keep you trapped.
Even for those unfortunate enough to combine limerence and anxious attachment, it is possible to build a better future by learning from the past.
Do anxious and avoidant relationships go the distance? My sample size is small, but the examples I have from my own life are that the anxious chases (over time, more and more) while the avoidant backs further and further out of the room, and the whole thing eventually implodes.
I’m avoidant married to an anxious, we still deal with a push/pull from it but we’ve been together a long time so I think we kind of know what to expect. I feel too smothered and pull away and then eventually I feel bad and come back and try to give him extra attention. Always been like this.
With my LO I think I act more fearful avoidant, he seems to act this way as well so its all over the place: he was avoiding me a while, now I’m avoiding him, and there have been brief periods where one or both of us is putting in effort/acting eager, whereas in my primary relationship I’m just classic dismissive.
I’m an avoidant as well. I felt smothered when I was with an anxious. Similar to your situation, I am drawn to other avoidants, or men doing the push/pull. This kind of dynamic seems to suck me in. I know it’s not a healthy dynamic, but I hate to be smothered. For example, the anxious guy would call me after work. I told him: Just call me once. If I don’t answer, I’m in the middle of doing something. (I often took a quick nap after work, which I told him.) And I always called him back later that evening. But if I didn’t answer, he would keep calling! This was several years ago, when I had a home phone. So I’d just take the phone off the hook.
Yeah the anxious ones can be irritating but they tend to be consistent and there for you when you need them. Avoidant guys are more trouble than they are worth. The draw at first can be pretty strong though. I think I may be finally fed up with this LO, expects me to put in all the work, throws me “pebbles”, wants me to pay attention to him but always has to maintain his plausible deniability, irritating thing is he never totally goes away.
I guess Ideally we’d be secure and date other secure people, must be nice, but I guess the highs might not be as high
Sandy,
“Yeah the anxious ones can be irritating but they tend to be consistent and there for you when you need them. ”
Yes, mam, you are correct. 🙂
“…thing is he never totally goes away.”
My last LO did the same thing. The amount of time he stayed away in the “disappear phase” got longer over time, though. It got to the point where I made no effort at all and wanted to say: If you think I’m coming in after you, you are going to be waiting a while. I’m Lionel Richie. I can go this “all night long.” 🙂
“I guess Ideally we’d be secure and date other secure people.”
That is one of the things I’ve always struggled with. I can tell when someone is pursuing too hard and when they aren’t doing enough but am not a good judge of “just right.”
I securely attach but I totally get the feeling smothered thing, I do not take to that well either as I just need space.
I think it’s important to note that if a person is limerent for someone who is unavailable and a flirtation/”situationship” starts up, the limerent will not get a good idea of the LO’s attachment style. The LO will come off as an avoidant, conflicted and preoccupied — and they are, with their SO. But if SO for whatever reason is no longer in the picture, an avoidant LO can suddenly become an anxious overnight.
Marcia, that’s not anxious behavior, that’s just lack of good manners and proper etiquette! And this is coming from an anxious preoccupied, haha
Sandy,
What makes you think show fearful avoidant traits? It’s not considered a good look.
“For Dutton and colleagues, both fearful and preoccupied attachment, as assessed by the RQ and RSQ in abusive men, were predictive for borderline personality, but fearful attachment was so strong a predictor that the authors concluded that having borderline personality was the prototype for this particular attachment style.” – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1857277/
I have two professional opinions that LO #2 was a borderline and the fearful avoidant attachment style fit her like a glove. One of those opinions was made by someone that actually knew her while we were dating.
I am/was a dismissive avoidant. But, it appears possible to change.
“John Bowlby’s concept of a “secure base” (Ainsworth et al., 1978) may be seen as a platform from which to explore Main’s (2002) description of “earned secure attachment…Indeed, over a period of 5 years, a secure adult relationship has been found to change responses on the Adult Attachment Interview results from insecure to “earned secure” (Main, 2002) This finding confirms other research demonstrating that connections among neurons can be directly altered and shaped by experience through neural plasticity (Schore, 2003; Siegel, 2007).” – EMOTION IN ROMANTIC PARTNERS: INTIMACY FOUND, INTIMACY LOST, INTIMACY RECLAIMED – Marion Solomon, PhD
It took awhile but I think I made it to “earned secure.” I owe that to my wife.
Personally, I think two avoidants could craft a positively delightful and stable relationship but it would take 4 specific criteria:
1. They both have to be dismissive-avoidants. DAs have a fundamentally decent sense of self-worth. They like themselves. It’s the other people that they can live without out.
2. They both have to be aware of that they’re DAs, even if they’re not aware of the term itself.
3. They both have to have roughly equal “sphere’s of intimacy.” That means they have to be able to tolerate the same degree of intimacy. Some DAs can tolerate a fair amount of intimacy (small sphere), others not so much (large sphere).
4. Their boundaries have to flexible. There comes a point in almost every serious relationship when one partner needs encouragement, reassurance, and validation. The receiving partner’s tolerance for intimacy has to be flexible enough to allow the needing partner to approach, at least temporarily, before pushing the needing partner away. Think of it like an underinflated balloon. There’s some slack in it. If the boundaries are too rigid the other partner would be immediately rebuffed, like two billiard balls. The receiving partner is like a spring. The needing partner compresses that spring. If the needing partner compresses the spring too far or the spring has a high spring constant, the return to equilibrium could be swift and sudden.
I would think the odds of two DAs with those traits encountering each other is next to nothing but I think it’s theoretically possible. For example, I think LO #4 and I could pull it off. We meet the first two criteria. We’d have to actually try a relationship to find out the last two and that’s never going to happen.
@Marcia it’s hard I’m reading here so I haven’t figured out either 🙂
@Limerent Emeritus it’s not a label I wear with pride, I think I am a dismissive at heart and the limerence (and an erratic LO is bringing out my anxious side). I won’t claim to be well adjusted but I do not think I am borderline (although side note pretty sure a past LO was that can make for quite a glimmer). But yeah but exactly proud of some of my behavior, LO may be worse but I let myself get caught in it, we fuel each other. Basically we desperately want to be around each other (and keep extremely close tabs on each other), but when any actual escalating event happens one or both of us gets scared and runs away, but not too far away. Whereas when I’m dismissive I can go far far away
Song of the Day: “With or Without You” – U2 (1987)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzeDqRhM09w
Sandy, this one’s for you.
This song came out the month after LO #2 and I broke up. 9 months later, when she was back in town this came on the radio and she said, “That’s how I feel about you. I can’t live with you but I don’t want to live without you.” I told her that it was easy, anything other than a definite “with” was a default “without.” For an intelligent woman, LO #2 could be an incredibly slow learner.
I’ve been in two push/pull relationships I know of, maybe three if you toss in LO #4 but that one was never supposed to play out the way it did so I’m not going to count it. The first time, I was the one who’d retreat when the girl advanced and come back when she backed off. The second time the woman (LO #1) was the one doing the push-pull thing and that went away once we worked out her cheating on her BF with me.
I have two senior pictures of girls in HS. One is from the girl above. On the back, she wrote, “Peace?” She’s the only girl from HS I ever stayed in contact with and I visited her after she moved away. We lost touch and I haven’t heard from her in 40 years. It makes me wonder a little.
Back on task…
Marion Solomon had some interesting things to say about the push/pull dynamic and marriage in one of her other books but that one’s at work.
“Yeah the anxious ones can be irritating but they tend to be consistent and there for you when you need them. ”
Your SO can be irritating. Everybody can be irritating. So, the attraction to your SO is based on consistency and reliability? You’re certainly not the first person to make that choice.
That explains why you’re with your SO but what’s the glimmer with your LO? What got your attention and what itch are you trying to scratch?
Couples in push/pull dynamics don’t want to resolve it, they’re invested in maintaining it, for precisely the reason you said, you feed off each other.
Do you want to resolve it or do you want to learn how to make it work for you? https://livingwithlimerence.com/can-limerence-be-safely-harnessed/
So far, I’ve come the closest of any poster here and I wasn’t able to pull it off long term. LO #4 went off script (see above) and it became unmanageable. But, just because I couldn’t do it doesn’t mean it can’t be done. You and your LO may be more disciplined.
@Limerent Emeritus
I do like that song, maybe that says something 😂
Ultimately I am happy with my SO he loves me and I love him. I think there is a level on which he doesn’t really “get” all my emotional pain, but maybe that is how he is able to stay stable and constant through everything.
LO on the other hand resonates with me. When it is good it feels really good, but lately its been one never ending passive aggressive feud. I am tired of it, it is too much pain for both of us. I know now that nothing good could ever come from acting on this, I have known this for a while but it is really sinking in, and I think I now have the strength to prevent this. All that said I have not totally given up on him, not ready to fully cut him out, though starting to realize I may have too. I guess I still kind of want him in my life, we have mutual friends and interests and he does have good qualities I swear, but I want things to calm down and I want better boundaries.
@Sandy,
Boundaries are good.
Will he respect them? Can you enforce them? Most important, can he get past them? For a time, LO #2 could go through my boundaries like water like a chain link fence. They were up, they were pretty strong, and they were totally ineffective until I got pissed off enough to set stronger ones. She knew how to push my buttons.
Passive-aggression is a guerilla war waged by someone who can’t or won’t directly challenge someone. I watched my grandfather wage one for years against my grandmother and it’s rampant in the military.
It’s a great tool for maintaining that push/pull dynamic because nothing ever gets resolved. It’s like an itch that never gets scratched. Get rid of that passive-aggressive feud between the two of you and how will you feed the beast? What will keep you in the dance? Which makes perfect sense if you want to keep this thing going on some level.
“All that said I have not totally given up on him, not ready to fully cut him out, though starting to realize I may have too.”
Maybe you can dial things back and pull it off. If you’re good enough and everyone stays well-behaved, maybe you can keep any cognitive dissonance manageable. Can he? You seem to have a plan about how you might want this to go. Is he in on the plan?
But, you better hope that nothing radical changes in either of your lives. If it does, things can start to spiral out of control pretty quickly. What’s the worst that can happen if it blows up on you?
@Limerent Emeritus
Whether he can respect boundaries remains to be seen. He seems to have a strong moral line around anything physical, but of course things are very blurry in other areas. I know he can be capable of emotional maturity although recently he has gone a bit haywire. If he can’t do this of course it won’t work, and I will need to move on in my life without him. I should say that I don’t hope to stay in mutual limerence, I want us both to come out of it and try to interact more normally. The worst that could happen is that we sleep together and blow up both of our lives.
@Sandy,
Hopefully, everything will work out for the happiness of everyone involved.
@Limerent Emeritus
Thanks for the well wishes. If nothing else we learn things about ourselves from this at least.
@Sandy,
“If nothing else we learn things about ourselves from this at least.”
Hopefully. Some people do, some people don’t. Some lessons cost more than others. I made several big mistakes but I didn’t have to pay for them. That doesn’t mean I’m good, it means I’m lucky.
LE’s 4th Law: When you’re up to your neck in quicksand, how you got there and not doing it again only matter if you make it out of this one alive.
Getting out of trouble is good, avoiding trouble is better.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/troubledemotivator.jpeg?v=1403276140
Sandy,
How do you know it’s mutual limerence? I don’t mean that in a snarky way, but what are the signs? I could tell my last LO was interested, but I don’t know the extent of his feelings, other than an acknowledgment of mutual attraction. He was a very fliratatious person, so I’m not sure if he had several flirtations with other women. Other than someone disclosing, I’m not sure how you can tell the other person is limerent.
@Emily
Basically by the extent he is invested in our cryptic games. His behavior is beyond pathetic (mine is too) I don’t see a normal person investing this much for so little return. He goes to great lengths to snoop on me and get my attention indirectly, of course I have confirmed this through my own obsessive snooping. But no he hasn’t admitted, I guess there could be something else wrong with him. The drama started after a trial run of LC; I got my feelings under control and his blew up. That of course sucked me back in trying to “figure it out”. But from the fallout we both recognize the other’s feelings although we still leave it unspoken.
I have been limerent other times and do not believe it was mutual those times. I do think all cases there has been some level of mutual attraction or interest, but ultimately they didn’t want me the way I wanted them. In this case it seems I am affecting him as much or more as he is affecting me. It is honestly worse bc I think if I had evidence he didn’t care the same way I would have moved on by now, that is what ultimately released me the other times.
Sandy,
Sorry, it’s Marcia. I accidentally signed in with my middle name.
“I have been limerent other times and do not believe it was mutual those times. I do think all cases there has been some level of mutual attraction or interest, but ultimately they didn’t want me the way I wanted them.”
That’s exactly how it’s been for me. One LO became a boyfriend (although I think I won him by default), one I dated, one was an FWB. Something happened with all the LOs — except the last one. My last LE was by far most ridiculous. This is just how I feel, but I hope if this happens to me again, I abandon ship pretty quickly if nothing substantial is happening. Little notes, little gifts, sexual compliments don’t cut it.
@Marcia
Ah we got lost on that other thread.
Your past experience sounds very similar to mine but I have never actually slept with an LO. Am I missing out? Don’t tell me 😉 I think with the past ones they were attracted, pursued a bit but my intensity scared them off, and they weren’t heartbroken when I had enough and got over them.
I know what you mean, this one is ridiculous and so not satisfying. L Initially the signs were so subtle I was convinced it was one sided. I read all the limerence stuff and decided to do a LC (covid assisted). It was great got control felt saner, but once I resumed contact he got upset with me out of nowhere and then when I got upset at him for being upset (in a very subtle way) he noticed and relented. After that we both had a kind of “awareness ” of our mutual feelings and dove even deeper into our games. The ways we showed affection were particularly ridiculous I am sorry I cannot post but trust me they were epically lame.
Sandy,
” I have never actually slept with an LO. Am I missing out? Don’t tell me 😉 ”
Ok, if you want to know, I’ll tell you, but if you don’t, I’ll zip it. 🙂
“I think with the past ones they were attracted, pursued a bit but my intensity scared them off …”
I think this happened with me, too, but I wanted them to dig the intensity. As if they had never had it before and were craving it … like they were looking for a different kind of woman. One who wasn’t girl-next-door nice. It was a fantasy. 🙂
” I cannot post but trust me they were epically lame.”
I did many things I can’t believe I did.
@Marcia
As much as I want to know probably best I don’t think about that… Unless it was mediocre 😂
There is something about intensity. A big pull for me. To want and be wanted so bad it destroys you, so romantic! I guess it’s not healthy though.
You know the lame things are embarrassing but I think in a way they saved us from doing anything bad with actual consequences.
Sandy,
“Unless it was mediocre 😂”
Not mediocre, but I was still with one of my LOs when I fell out of limerence, and then sex became like any other repetitive act. 🙂
“To want and be wanted so bad it destroys you, so romantic!”
I totally know what you mean. I wanted them to WANT to jump over the cliff with me and not care about the landing. Like they were dying for someone to kick them over them edge … and in walked Marcia. 🙂 Again it was my fantasy. Not theirs. I think most of them were a bit milquetoasty in their approach to life, actually.
“You know the lame things are embarrassing but I think in a way they saved us from doing anything bad with actual consequences.”
Oh, no, I wanted to do bad things. At the time. At the height of it. 🙂
@Marcia
It’s funny sometimes when you fall out of it “I wanted THAT”. And yes I also wanted the bad things but in the end it is best they didn’t happen.
Sandy,
You mentioned your LO was a flake. Sigh. Mine, too. It seems however much you want the person to show is in inverse proportion to however much they actually will. Of course, the opposite can be said when you don’t care if they show up.
@Marcia
Mhm we all want what we can’t have
Sandy,
What do your respective SOs think of all this? Are they clueless and not seeing any of this or indifferent and don’t care? It doesn’t sound like you two are so smooth for them to be unaware that something is going on.
“…aren’t so smooth…”
It seems like you two would have to be leaking all over the place.
@Sandy,
It’s time to play a game.
Clear your mind. Empty it and let things flow back in their own.
Part I:
Where do you see yourself in a year, 3 years, 5 years? Who do you see yourself with? It could be your SO, your LO, nobody, or some as yet unidentified shadowy figure.
Part II:
What’s the FTE (Fairy Tale Ending) to all this? If this could play out any way you wanted, what would that look like? This is where you get to dream big.
Part III:
How do the first two questions reconcile with each other? Down the road, are you living the dream?
Part IV:
If they don’t reconcile, what are you willing to do about it? Sometimes the answer is something you haven’t considered, yet.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/imagination.jpg?v=1540860301
@Limerent Emeritus
You are correct, I am not totally smooth and SO is aware somewhat. I do talk about LO in front of him and he knows something is up there but not the extent. I have told him about LOs in the past and I did not really find it helpful – just made him more insecure and clingy and made things harder for us. Ultimately this time I have the awareness that this will fade, and I try to remember my husband is the stable one who loves me and is always there for me. I am not going to throw that away for a chance with a flake.
I suppose the dream is staying happy with SO while working out a stable non-disruptive, non-limerent friendship with LO. I feel a need to give him a chance at this, but if he will not behave (very possible) I will cut him off.
@Sandy,
“I suppose the dream is staying happy with SO while working out a stable non-disruptive, non-limerent friendship with LO. I feel a need to give him a chance at this, but if he will not behave (very possible) I will cut him off.”
The “…need to give him at chance at this…” is kind of scary. Be honest, it’s your want. It’s not a need, and it’s almost certainly not his. You’re doing this for you and only you. What does your LO get out of this? How does this make your marriage better?
You have the goal. Let’s recap to see where you are.
1. You say that you need better boundaries. Best to get them in place sooner than later.
2. You don’t want to damage your existing relationship but you’re leaking and your SO is aware of it. The leaking needs to be taken care of. ASAP.
3. Your LO is a flake and you need him to behave. It can be challenging enough managing an LO who isn’t a flake. Two of my four LOs behaved themselves and two didn’t. None of them were flakes. Of the two that didn’t behave, one caused me the most pain and the other had the potential to cause the most damage. The kicker? The last one wasn’t trying to cause trouble. She only gave me the opportunity to blow myself up.
Items 1 & 2 may not be easy but they are under your control, which is good. You have no control over Item 3 whatsoever. It only takes one of those to fail to have things come apart.
You have your work cut out for you.
@Sandy,
“I do talk about LO in front of him and he knows something is up there but not the extent. I have told him about LOs in the past and I did not really find it helpful – just made him more insecure and clingy and made things harder for us.”
LOs…plural?
If you know that it makes things harder, why do you do it? Why would you intentionally make your SO more insecure and clingy?
@Limerent Emeritus
I have had multiple sequential LOs with gaps in time. I told him about a past one as a “crush” (at the time unaware of the concept of limerence). I believe I found this as generic advice for dealing with a crush. I found that telling SO just made SO behave more undesirably and did nothing to dampen my feelings for LO. So this time I have opted not to disclose, though as I say he picks up on something and acts jealous of LO at times. With awareness I am able to have more compassion for SO acting clingier and reacting and try to reassure him whereas in the past I would use it as justification to push him away.
I think my general attachment style is stable and/or avoidant, depending on who’s being asked and what that person wants from me. Traditionally, I’ve attracted anxious men and anxious women as platonic friends. Anxious people “draw me out” and oftentimes I can be strong enough for the two of us. It’s quite an enjoyable interaction. Our different styles seem to “balance out” over time. I.e. anxious person becomes a little calmer and I become more animated. 😛
Then limerence comes along and seems to throw everything out of kilter…
Limerence makes me an anxious mess, but only in relation to LO. Limerence makes me “bubbly” when my default setting is “reserved”. It’s like I’m trying so hard to impress/get close to my romantic target I end up being inauthentic and betraying my values. I start acting in a very artificial way that isn’t me at all. It’s almost as if I’m saying: “Look. I can be as cool as all your other friends. No, wait. I can be even cooler than all your other friends. Pick me. Pick me. I’m cool.”
A side-effect of my limerence-induced anxiety is I become obsessed with the things that my LO apparently doesn’t like. For example, I’ve had LOs who weren’t very physically affectionate and LOs who frowned on bad language. I became obsessed with “getting it right”. I.e. what is the “right amount” of physical contact, if any? What is the “right kind” or “right amount” of colourful language? I almost treat the arbitrary preferences of my LOs as universal standards of morality I should adopt. E.g. “LO doesn’t like swearing; therefore, swearing is always wrong.” I try to become the person LO supposedly wants, in other words.
There was a girl once, a platonic friend, who seemed to be developing the start of a limerent reaction to me in that how I was treating her was having a too-significant impact on her emotional stability. (It was noticeable). I backed off. I was afraid of being engulfed by a needy woman – a replay of my childhood relationship with my mother. I felt a tiny bit manipulated by this chick, and angry at her for dumping so many unspoken expectations on my shoulders. I was afraid that eventually I’d make her unhappy and she’d find some way of blaming me for her unhappiness, ruining my already-shaky social reputation in the process.
I had an avoidant response to her, in other words, because I felt she was asking me for things I couldn’t give her. I couldn’t be her knight in shining armour. But maybe plenty of other males would have happily stepped into that role… 😛
I’ve pegged my LO as a classic DA with a hint of (maybe) Aspergers, the indifference he displays oh so well being one of his main traits. The guy basically described himself as a “go with the flow”, whatever happens happens kinda person. It drives me bonkers. He just seems to easy going about life, my anxiety is off the charts trying to analyze it (is he faking it for image preservation or is that hidden insecurity or is that the real him?)
He also does hardcore disappearing acts for months. No contact. Real torture.
What I resent even more is that he occasionally pops up on my social media and starts liking my posts. Does this every few weeks. He selects the ones that have my selfies in them.
This usually sets me back for a while as it reinforces in me the need to “know” if the likes hold hidden meaning (is he trying to get my attention?) or are completely coincidental.
I resent this pattern because I feel like if I stop posting on social media, he wins? If I block him, I look petty and I’ve practiced casual indifference with him for far too long to do this… again, he wins? What do I do then?
Ophelie,
I consider myself a fearful avoidant so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I had a friend who was a dismissive avoidant, and he didn’t seem to want or need all that much from other people. And what he did want was relatively shallow. We talked about music and tv shows, but I didn’t feel like I really got to know him as a person. He didn’t have a lot of close relationships in his life and didn’t want them. He was engaged for a bit but that broke up. She was an anxious, and the more she pushed, the more he retreated. All his relationships started (and I think continued) because the woman pursued him.
Eureka! LO said most of the women he had any significant relationships with pursued him! What on earth is thay mean? He does seem a bit passive (beta male) but what’s puzzling is, he also seems very sexual.
Ophelie,
“What on earth is thay mean? He does seem a bit passive (beta male) ”
My friend was very risk averse. He wasn’t going to take the chance to go after someone. And I think there was an element of control to it on his part. But do you find passive attractive? I have pursued LOs, but two of the hottest LEs I ever hard (at least in the beginning) were with LOs who pursued me. To be frank, it was hotter sexually. 🙂
Ophelie,
“I resent this pattern because I feel like if I stop posting on social media, he wins? If I block him, I look petty and I’ve practiced casual indifference with him for far too long to do this… again, he wins? What do I do then?”
So, what?
Do you have mutual acquaintances that would notice this? Would this impact your social life? If not, block him. It’s the equivalent of a FB “F–k You,” and it’s mostly symbolic. Tighten up your social media. He can’t like what he can’t see. I pissed off LO #4 and she blocked me on FB. I thought it was bitchy but not being able to access her directly helped both of us. 5 years later, I still am. I check from time to time just to see.
The only person keeping you on this roller coaster is you. If you don’t like it, get off. Often easier said than done but you have choices.
As for being pursued, you’re making a lot of assumptions. Stick with facts. He blows hot and cold. The only real benefit in knowing why is that it can help come to accept that it wasn’t you, it was him. But, it’s still your life.
You’re unlikely to change that. Wanna know why some women pursue marginal candidates? They think they’ll be the One who changes them. They’re usually wrong.
LO #4 had an affinity for Narcs. She said her father was a Narc. She later said her ex-partner, who allegedly assaulted her and cheated on her was a Narc. She’s a PsyD, so she should know. But, she had a blind spot for them and never met one she didn’t try to rehabilitate. One would appear on her site and she’d rise like a trout to a fly. From the outside, it was pretty obvious. You think with her credentials that she would have seen it but she didn’t. I pointed it out to her. She later said that I was the one who opened eyes to what was going on. Score one for me!
I’ve been pursued by two women in my life. One was leveraging me against the guy she really liked and the other was a Love-Bomber. Neither of those types appeal to me. Two women might showed interest in me before I showed interest in them but I successfully shut them down before they got close enough to see the real me.
But if you want to speculate some on why some guys are the way they are, I spent adolescence and early adulthood in the Groucho Marx School of “I wouldn’t belong to any club that would have me for a member.” I was screwed up so any girl that liked me had to be even more screwed up and why would I want to deal with a screwed up girl? Catch 22! Way easier to keep them at a distance.
I told the therapist that I thought LO #2 took me on out of pity. The therapist said that pity wasn’t anywhere in the mix. The therapist said that when I told LO #2 we could hang out together until one of us got a better offer, that pissed her off and she saw me as a challenge. It was about power and control from Day 1. She said to my face, “I can’t control you.” She later said that I was the first person to ever pursue her and in all her other relationships, she had started them and she’d ended. I set precedent!
You want more?
To any avoidant, someone pursuing them means that person is trying to drive the bus. Avoidants don’t like other people driving the bus. They’re not in control if someone else is driving the bus. They say they like it but when things get real, they don’t.
You can kill hours on this kind of rumination.
With all respect, I have no idea what driving the bus means. You’ve lost me with your analysis. All I know is that he doesn’t seem to want to be in control? Otherwise, why would he dissapear so often? He does these random? things like liking my photos on social media but is otherwise crickets. Then he almost Always responds if I initiate contact. All of it just makes my head spin. I am a fairly direct person and perceive myself as just a bit of above average emotional intelligence but this man makes me feel very stupid as I cannot read his intentions at all. I like my friend’s theory that he might be on the spectrum but then I discover something personal about him that blows that theory out of water and I’m back to square one trying to psychoanalyze him. Ugh. I think I might be addicted to the pain of it all.
I think an especially useful LE management/recovery tactic is to try and learn to just accept our LOs behaviour as it is without trying to seek any explanation for it. Hard to do in practice but for me, it is all about my conscious internal messaging to myself when I notice myself ruminating on that. i.e. “I have no idea why he is doing that and I probably never will. That is fine, I can live with that as I really don’t need to know why in order to live a full and purposeful life.”
“… this man makes me feel very stupid as I cannot read his intentions at all. I like my friend’s theory that he might be on the spectrum but then I discover something personal about him that blows that theory out of water and I’m back to square one trying to psychoanalyze him. Ugh. I think I might be addicted to the pain of it all.”
@Ophelie.
Don’t worry about feeling stupid. I think, if we can’t read someone’s intentions, that usually means they don’t have intentions where we are concerned. E.g. the person isn’t in the market for a serious relationship with us…
What I’ve heard about people on the spectrum is that they’re … honest almost to a fault. So, if it’s safe to ask this guy what his intentions are and he really is on the spectrum, he will more likely than not give you an honest, straightforward answer. Do you feel asking him outright for clarification of his feelings is an option? 😛
I guess it’s tough for a neurotypical woman to like a guy on the spectrum because, yes, he won’t pick up on any non-verbal cues. (He might not even be aware you like him, unless you spell it out). Men on the spectrum don’t pick up on hints – that’s all I’m saying. However, plenty of “normal men” act the same way. Confusing!
“Being addicted to the pain of it all” definitely sounds like something most limerents can relate to! We do have a habit of getting ourselves swept up into the rough seas of rumination! 😛
I totally get your ‘driving the bus’ analogy. I made that mistake with my LO! From the point of view from a AP bus driver, DA’s like you drive it for a little while in the beginning . But you have to get out of the drivers seat at some point pretty early on and wait for them to hopefully drive. They tend to get bored of driving though and get off leaving you alone on the bus. My LO said I needed to find someone else to drive around.
That’s also a great analogy. The bus tends to move at high speed for Dad, but only in the early stages of “pursuit”, then they hop off unexpectedly:(
Ophlie,
Maybe it’s as simple as the movie title says, “He’s Just Not That Into You.”
The simple truth is anyone who wants to be with you will be with you and let you know it. You show them what you have to offer and they like it and take advantage of the opportunity or they don’t.
You don’t know what drives them. Many times, they don’t know what drives themselves.
Limerents can turn rumination into a second career.
I stuck around until LO #2 pushed me too far. Not long after I met a woman who made me a better offer. It was a no brainer.
Haha, I like this analogy. For me rumination has been a part time job but without any pay.
@Allie, I like your idea too but sadly, I think I’m too far gone and the whys are now a significant part of my psyche. I am always looking for clues and explanations and to be perfectly honest, I get this weird satisfaction from it all. Why is he the way he Is? I don’t know but each little clue feels good to add to the theories.
Yup I can totally relate to that…
I find it is the same for any repeated experience or action that is linked to our addiction (a.k.a. LO) such as seeing their name, analysing them, talking about them etc. They seem to generate a little echoing burst of the same neurochemicals that the LO does, even when it is a painful experience or action.
“If your anxious tendencies were formed by unreliable caregivers, an avoidant LO will at some level feel right. Or at least familiar.” I think this is a part for me as I was abandoned by my mother for almost a year when I was born. In a way, I think the uncertainty aspect of limerence triggers this old pattern, the longing for someone who is not really there, or unpredictably there.
I tried to deal with my limerence on my own but I think I need to talk to a therapist about it. For me LO is avoidant, possibly neglectful, shy, introverted and passive. I am avoidant, shy and introverted so we’re quite the same.
What I noticed that people who attract me are passive, avoidant, distant and abstract (if it’s there such thing)-why? Because they are safe to me. Those who show an interest, become overly obsessed with me, controlling, needy and clingy and I’d rather die than be in a relationship with needy people (I was raised by those). So that’s my problem-vacilating between two unhealthy extremes. I actually don’t know what it means to be ‘grey’, stable, balanced.
So happy I found your blog.
BTW, please do a post where your LO is in love with you (limerent). It’s my case. What happens when you LO has feelings for you?
My LO2 was mutually limerent with me. We had EAs twice ten years apart (the more recent time was ten years ago). We are still sort of friends but seldom talk as the boundaries are still a bit too permeable.
One of my best friends has recently identified that I’m her LO. Like she’s labeled it just like that. I’m non-limerent in general, but it’s true for me to her. I’m straight and in a happy 5 year relationship. She is self aware, self reflectant and in therapy and CODA. We talk very openly about it and the struggles. I can’t shake the feeling that just me engaging with her is making it worse and I’m not being a good friend. I care for her deeply but only as my friend and it will never be more. I don’t know what to do. I saw the other blog post about what I should do, but will that really help her to heal and learn? She’ll just replace me with someone else. At least I have the knowledge of what’s going on and awareness. Help!!!!
Here is a story that just popped up on CNN.
https://www.cnn.com/health/attachment-styles-types-relationships-wellness-cec