Long time readers of the blog will have noticed that I periodically reflect on how to best manage the site, given the multiple roles it plays. This is another of those posts.
First, I want Living with Limerence to be a primary source of key information about limerence – an evidence-based catalogue of what limerence is, how it arises from fundamental neuroscience, and the practical effects it has on people going through it.
Second, the site has a self-help aspect, for those who are trapped in an unwanted limerence episode and need to re-establish psychological equilibrium. So, I also blog about the tools and strategies for de-escalating the symptoms and integrating limerence into life in a healthier way.
Third, I blog about myself and my experiences, my life philosophy for living with purpose, and why (I believe) that is the most effective long-term solution to limerence.
Last, but certainly not least, it is a community for others – to visit, learn, reflect, share their own experiences and contribute to the fruitful (and sometimes funny) discussions that arise from those of us living with limerence.
Ideally, these purposes would work together harmoniously, and when they do the blog motors along nicely, educating and helping people and providing a sense of community. Sometimes, though, something ineffable shifts, and I get the sense that these goals are working at cross purposes.
Recently, I’ve had several emails from community members asking to increase the number of “recent comments” on the home page, because they are losing track of ongoing discussions. In large part, this is because those discussions range over many posts, and so no-one can feasibly keep track of them all.
I’ve also been struck by the recent series of posts on purposeful living being quickly filled up with discussions about personal limerent experiences… but only a few comments about the topic of the post. For clarity, I am fine with that in principle, and always happy to hear from people about their lives (because people are fascinating), but it does present something of an organisational problem.
If someone has happened upon the site and reads an article about purposeful living, and then jumps into a comment section filled with an ongoing community discussion that makes little sense to them, it would be a bit off-putting.
So, the time has come for a minor reorganisation.
These “coffeehouse” posts are meant as open threads for people to talk about whatever they want, and so are the ideal venue for personal reflections and sharing experiences with friends. Like a real coffeehouse.
I would encourage people to use the latest coffeehouse post as a focal point for open discussions. That should make it a lot easier to keep track of ongoing chats, and not lose the discussion thread as it spreads over the 300+ articles on the site. I’ll post one coffeehouse post a month so that the schedule is predictable and frequent enough to keep up with demand.
To further encourage this focus, I will be turning off comments altogether on some of the “information” articles, and also (if I can get the tech working properly) start moving egregiously off-topic comments from other posts into the coffeehouse.
We’ll see whether this is a good plan, or ends up making things even more complicated, but for now, this is a heads-up on the changes coming and invitation for anyone who has any good ideas about whether this will work to share them in the comments below.
Finally, I’ll end with a nice portentous message too: more changes are coming soon. Some of them big.
Sammy says
“These “coffeehouse” posts are meant as open threads for people to talk about whatever they want, and so are the ideal venue for personal reflections and sharing experiences with friends. Like a real coffeehouse.”
Ah. Very good. I think the guidelines are clear enough. Coffeehouse is the place to socialise and conduct more informal discussions about limerence. 😉
Sammy says
Okay. I’ve thought of a topic that might kick-start some interesting discussion.
Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?
Is there such a thing as false guilt? And, if false guilt is a thing, where does it come from? Does it come from being parentified as a child? Does it come from not spending enough time around peers? Inadequate socialisation?
I’m finding, now that limerence is fading, I’m something I’ve never before been in my life – spontaneous. Especially spontaneous in social situations. Sometimes, the things I say and do surprise even me.
Does anyone else struggle with spontaneity, or feel like they’re meeting a stranger (i,e, themselves) on the rare occasions they do indulge in spontaneity?
I had an LO who told me he enjoyed being spontaneous and that I should “just be myself” (at job interviews, etc). I had no idea what he was talking about. (How can I just be myself? I ‘m not relaxed enough to just be myself!)
Is this the lesson I needed to learn from limerence? How to be spontaneous? And was anxiety, or an overstimulated nervous system, preventing me from being spontaneous in the past? If my LO opened my eyes to the possibility of spontaneity, then his example ultimately changed my life for the better. Maybe, at the end of the day, that’s why his “energy” seemed to be a natural fit for my “energy” (i.e. we balanced each other out energetically), and that’s why being around him was inexplicably pleasurable? I.e. he was showing me a version of myself I could be, a version of myself I wanted to be all the time. 🤔
Snowphoenix says
Based on Video from “how to make decisions” https://youtu.be/DXU_7TS8Kxk and my own experiences: we all wear different personas. I had to be a varied “self” while moving between cultural and ethnical groups (3 continents). I was/am an oddball, a shy rebel, a semi social “outcast” even in my own ethnic group since young and more comfortable in the current “melting pot”, not sure if it’s due to my cptsd, limerent fantasying nature, or something else.
We all desire to be our “true self” (always evolving), relaxed, spontaneous, up or down… especially in a limerent love to be ideally accepted by LO. It’s one’s fortune to be truly with one’s fluid self when being with LO (or close friends.). It seems not to be the case with most limerents in this site.
I’m not sure if there is permanent version of oneself that one wants to and can be all the time. I have watched my own self(s) changing at hourly or daily basis — keeping journals for years primarily comprising rolling thoughts, feelings, and dreams.
I see each of us is truly unique, and once said to my ex-father-in-law: I’m in a “No Man’s Land” “Waiting for Godot” — a semi-God LO❗️ Now I know No One is coming, so I might as well just be my fluid self at any given moment while trying not to offend others in any ways. Love me or hate me is their internal business, not mine! (a semi-Stoic)
I actually went every job interview with a silent questions, “Who are you inside?” Then, I watched their face with curiosity and answered their questions with sincere smiles, as if I were going to make a friend with them (luckily I was never in a desperate position to get a job). I got all the offers except one.
Sammy says
“I’m not sure if there is permanent version of oneself that one wants to and can be all the time. I have watched my own self(s) changing at hourly or daily basis — keeping journals for years primarily comprising rolling thoughts, feelings, and dreams.”
@Snowphoenix.
Yes, I also suspect that maybe there is no permanent self to find and that the search is futile. However, limerence at times does feel like flicking through a lot of potential selves, and trying on an endless array of masks, on the off-chance that one of those many masks may fit.
I wonder if people attempt to create a persona to impress LO? I’m not sure if I have a personality, or whether I just invented a personality at some point, and now I’m too tired to “maintain” that personality any longer. The only identity I sort of carry with me now is “slightly older person”.
Which brings us to the topic of rebirth. If rebirth is what happens at the end of limerence, I’m a little disappointed in my reborn self. Seems like I’m not as interesting or glamorous as I thought I would be. Actually, I think I’m the same person as I was as a young child, but minus the drive/intensity/anger. I’ve accepted that childhood me, but the childhood me is incredibly boring.
So I’m the same person I always was, but the intensity is gone.
I feel limerence sort of tricks our brains into thinking: “Ooh, everything is really, really meaningful. Everywhere I look I see meaning.” Out of limerence, I think any meaning one finds in life is mostly personal and non-cosmic in nature. One enjoys other people’s company in a low-key way. I can’t believe brain chemicals can alter perceptions so much…
Lex says
Yes re “Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?”
My issue is self-esteem around LO. I work with LO so need to interact with him most days. Even though I’ve accepted all 3 things (we wont be together etc) and have cut off all unnecessary contact and any conscious daydreaming…the lack of reciprocity and closure (we are both married so any type of discussion would be inappropriate) makes me doubt myself.profoundly and I walk around and everyone who reminds me of him (looks, personality, culture)… I feel like they are better than me. I put him on a pedestal and can’t knock him off it despite my best efforts.
Has anyone
Lex says
I meant to write “has anyone else dealt with this”?
BLE says
“Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?”
Before coming to this site, I always thought I was someone who “fell in love easily” and “had a lot of love to give”, “yet unlucky in love” etc etc. It was deeply imprinted in my self image. Only recently, have I understood that I’ve been limerent throughout most of my teenage years and adult life. Getting a perspective on those limerent feelings has helped me tremendously and I only now realise it’s more of a cry for help of my subconscious than “love”. I have been without an LO for quite a while now – a limerent in recovery if you will 😛 Sometimes I feel the glimmer, but I recognize it now and manage to avoid falling into the trap of limerence. Still, I carry it around with me all the time. It’s an endless search for meaning and fulfillment that I don’t seem to be able to create in my every day life. When I visited a variety show recently, I immediately developed fantasies of “running away with the circus”, so to speak. I dreamt of living the nomad life and travelling from place to place and be surrounded by novelty, art and excitement. Even though I shook it off a couple of days later, it was just as aching as limerence when I felt this hunger for life so intensly. So I believe I will always carry limerence in whatever form until I manage to create a life that doesn’t feel stale and confining, but I can’t seem to figure out what a fulfulled life is for me personally. I try to accept limerence as my companion who shows me when I’m unhappy or need to take better care of myself.
Speedwagon says
I’m on board (no pun intended). Thank you for your continued efforts with this site, Dr L. Excited to see where it heads.
@Sammy…I’ll bite on this one
“Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?”
Yes, I feel limerence is certainly a burden. Every day my routine, experiences, interactions, all have the cloud of limerence laying over top. LO is in my head at most moments. But right now, I have taken my LE from being “horrible” to just meh. Purposeful living and LC resolve has accomplished this.
I am not with LO and will more than likely never be with LO. I think it is only in the last couple months I have come to accept that truth. Accepting that truth has helped me understand that LO is a source of pain to me and not pleasure. This has given me resolve in my LC. I feel now at 18 months I am in a sort of midway point in my LE and am turning the corner into recovery. I’m saddened that LE has poisoned the ability to be friends with LO but such is the reality of limerence.
I would say my limerence can still be intense, but it does not have to be all consuming as it once was. The cloud can be there, I can accept it, but I can operate under it better and better until one day it hopefully it just dissipates away.
MJ says
“Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?”
I’m with you here Speed. I think I’m more in frustration mode these days, but I feel like I probably do it to myself. Most days I am probably not as intense with LO anymore, but I’m also about making more personal changes that I think will help me manage my many mood swings over her.
Like yourself, I know the cloud will be there, I just want to maintain myself better under it.
C for cat says
I’m so sorry you’re still struggling to find a therapist, MJ. Are there any online ones you could try?
MJ says
I’m really not interested in online therapy as I feel it doesn’t seem as genuine enough.
I may even just cave and give up on the idea soon because even with online presence, I feel like they would shun the topic.
I find it kind of ridiculous that it runs along the same lines as most other addictions. It’s just a person who is the addiction. Guess I am looking for a professional opinion, but all of “us” here might just be the professional opinion, you could say.
Sammy says
“Accepting that truth has helped me understand that LO is a source of pain to me and not pleasure. This has given me resolve in my LC. I feel now at 18 months I am in a sort of midway point in my LE and am turning the corner into recovery. I’m saddened that LE has poisoned the ability to be friends with LO but such is the reality of limerence.
I would say my limerence can still be intense, but it does not have to be all consuming as it once was. The cloud can be there, I can accept it, but I can operate under it better and better until one day it hopefully it just dissipates away.”
@Speedwagon.
Yes, I think limerence kind of nixes the possibility of a true friendship ever existing…
I think limerence shouldn’t be defined as “love” because, in my book, love is a choice and limerence isn’t a choice. I really do think all healthy relationships should be based on the concept of “choice” for both and/or all parties involved.
Limerence is hard to give up because (1) it’s all-consuming, as you say and (2) the feel-good chemicals are very addictive and addicting. I think it’s very hard to say no to that level of aliveness/rush once tasting it. Perhaps it’s better for some people never to taste it, and then there’s nothing to be nostalgic about?
I didn’t really have much to do with one of my LOs. So if a relative stranger can make one feel that level of aliveness … that’s a bit disturbing, all things considered. One is getting high off pure fantasy. In my imagination, I must have been sprinting toward an illusion. Yet my mind was convinced the endpoint was real. Really, at the finishing line, no one was waiting for me. Oof! I kind of made myself very, very upset – sick with upset, in fact – for no reason at all. 🙄😆
I feel a lot of regret. I could have been living a nice boring life for the past three decades and enjoying friendships with other people with nice boring lives. I’ve missed out on so much I feel because my brain betrayed me. 🤔
Mila says
Thanks, Dr.L,
I was getting confused on who answered which post to whom and where.
What I feel would help is if I could click on a name and see all the comments of this person, because usually I only know whom I would like to reply to, not where he/she wrote…
But that would probably mean some sort of Log-in and privacy- problem, better suited to a forum?
Isn’t there still a forum somewhere?
And what are you planning? A Limerence App?;) (imagine! 5 reward points for 1 day NC and so on😂)
James A Afourkeeff says
“What I feel would help is if I could click on a name and see all the comments of this person”
Yes, this would be nice. We could track our own evolution through an active LE to see what progress we’ve made over time.
Limerent Emeritus says
DrL,
If I can make a suggestion, would it be possible to explain your “key word” filing system somewhere prominent?
Maybe a “Guide for New Visitors” like “Guide for Professionals.”
Knowing the appropriate place to look for/post something might help with the OT/Tangent posts.
I’m definitely one of the offenders here and I know LwL pretty well.
Dr L says
Not quite sure what you mean by “key words”, LE? Do you mean the post categories? My system for that is “which one does this seem to fit into best?” 🙂
What about a “community” page, with a few key bits of info on how to navigate, commenting policy, abbreviations, and link to latest coffeehouse post?
Snowphoenix says
As I’m still trying to get through overwhelming amount of older posts and see occasional new comments are added to them.
I think “community” pager with “Links” to ALL latest posts in coffeehouse and in older blogs would be great.
Snowphoenix says
Not sure “latest” should be 24 or 48 hours, or a week for new visitors.
Limerent Emeritus says
DrL,
I was thinking about explaining your “file under” system somewhere. You have links at the end of every blog.
I was also thinking about some explanation about the “search the site” box on the right of each blog. For example, a search for “mbti” and you get 1 hit. Search for “attachment” and you get 12 pages. It appears based on what appears within the blog itself and doesn’t look at comments.
Also, https://livingwithlimerence.com/can-limerence-explain-twin-flames/ has a line with links
“TAGGED WITH: LOVE, NARCISSISM, ROMANCE, SPIRITUALITY, STORIES”
What’s the difference between “Filed Under” and “Tagged With?”
It’s small stuff but might make things easier for newbies. When I showed up on LwL, there was a lot less information to keep track of . Now, it could be overwhelming.
Allie 1 says
“Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?”
Yes and No for me. My being a limerent has given me intense joy and pleasure in the past, plus a lovely SO, so I do not consider this tendency of mine to be a burden. The only limerent burden I carry is my current fading LE, and the sadness that comes with the loss of a seemingly special connection and a wonderful dream.
“I would say my limerence can still be intense, but it does not have to be all consuming as it once was. The cloud can be there, I can accept it, but I can operate under it better and better until one day it hopefully it just dissipates away.”
Well put, exactly where I am also. It took me far longer to accept reality though.
Sammy says
“Yes and No for me. My being a limerent has given me intense joy and pleasure in the past, plus a lovely SO, so I do not consider this tendency of mine to be a burden. The only limerent burden I carry is my current fading LE, and the sadness that comes with the loss of a seemingly special connection and a wonderful dream.”
@Allie 1.
Ah, I’m the opposite. I think I found my limerent tendencies a burden and not an individual LE. The reason I found/find my limerent tendencies a burden is I feel it somehow separates me from the majority of other people. Limerence can be a very isolating thing that encourages even more isolation the more one clings to it. I’ve spent my whole life trapped inside my own head, it would seem, and apparently other people don’t go through life like that.
When I observe people twenty years younger than me, for example, I’m just stunned at how casually people go about flirting and romance and all that sort of thing. Nobody seems to be worried about saying the wrong thing or making a bad impression. Nobody is overanalysing things. People are just wandering around shopping centres, being themselves. Why oh why didn’t I think of that? 😆
ABCD says
Great observation, Sammy. If only we could be more casual about LE. Perhaps, we take the LE too seriously.
Sammy says
“If only we could be more casual about LE. Perhaps, we take the LE too seriously.”
@ABCD.
Yeah, true. But, as Dr. L points out, limerence is an altered state. And as Dorothy Tennov observes in her book, a precondition for limerence seems to be the desire for limerence itself.
Other posters here have talked about how they want intensity in their lives. And I think that’s what limerence is all about in a way – a desire for a relationship that’s intense. The limerent feels really intense about a person, the LO, and wants the LO to feel really intense back. The whole limerent episode is premised on the idea of being intense – ideally two people being intense about each other.
I don’t know how else to say it. The limerent craves reciprocal emotional intensity. I think the point I’m trying to make is all those young couples I see wandering around shopping centres aren’t limerent for each other. (Well, apart from the ones holding onto each other so tightly they can barely walk). They’re practising a different form of bonding I assume. But maybe I’m wrong. I dunno.
Do people take their LEs too seriously? Again, I dunno. Impossible to say for sure. I guess the only way to find out if to ask oneself: “What is my fantasy about LO and self? Would I share this fantasy with others? If the answer is no, why wouldn’t I share this fantasy with others? Is the main reason I don’t want to share my fantasy with others is because the fantasy is … plain ridiculous?”
If fantasies about LO are veering off into the ridiculous, and yet the limerent wants to argue until blue in the face about how essential these fantasies are to personal happiness, then, yes, maybe the limerent has been taking the LE a tiny bit too seriously. In other words, just how extravagant has the limerent’s storytelling gotten?
For example, I turned my LO into an ancient Greek god and then flirted with the idea of converting to some form of Paganism. I decided that there just aren’t any really hot, devastatingly charming men in the Bible, you know? I’m gonna have to change religions. Is that taking things a little too seriously? Yup, probably. 🙄😉
Snowphoenix says
DrL
As I’m habitually egocentric and often in “limerence” with my own posts, reflecting on subtle changes or “growth” possibly depicted in them, or intending to refer some points in later discussions, I wonder if there is way, a click, that can lead to all my OWN old posts in sequence?
The off-topic, chitchatting nature of Coffee House is great. More than often after editing my longer ramblings elsewhere, I came back scrolling back and forth in different blogs trying to locate where I intended to post my responses.
MJ says
Dr. L
I enjoy the site. It has been an immense help and blessing to me, in the face of real life Therapy that seems to be stumped over this issue.
I can’t begin to explain how good it is to know there are so many others throughout the entire globe, experiencing this, so that I know I am not alone in this insanity.
I think my only complaint with the site is its lack of organization and inability to find old posts from myself or others that I would like to follow up with. It would be nice to having an edit post feature as well, but perhaps I’m just being needy. Whatever you have planned I’m sure will be good.
You’re presence on here is always so thoughtful and concise. I know I am probably guilty of going off topic in the sections, but your current plans may help.
Looking forward to whatever changes are coming, as I am sure they will be beneficial to all.
Snowphoenix says
I also wish an editing-post feature — have a “recall” click, then allows a repost.
I’m anxious about my grammar mistakes that mislead in meaning and understanding. I spot them mostly after posting.
Snowphoenix says
I’m not out of the woods of limerence yet, but I accept I’ll never be with the platonic LO (although still wishing to remain a good friend LE is over).
“Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?”
As soon (within a week) as I found out what limerence is all about through neuroscience lens and what is a possible psychological cause for my LEs (cptsd), I felt tremendous relief — it’s not due to my weak willpower, shortage of moral sense, or the unquenchable childhood dream to make substantial friends. I now feel much less “guilty” for the amount of sufferings caused primarily by my LE-ignorant self.
I don’t feel (may change later) I want to totally get rid of this “burden”; I wish to use its residual power to help pursue something more “positive” or purposeful — exploring unknowns, learning more social skills, and creating something meaningful in my small life.
“Is there such a thing as false guilt? And, if false guilt is a thing, where does it come from? Does it come from being parentified as a child? Does it come from not spending enough time around peers? Inadequate socialisation?”
To me, false guilt comes from parental “education” and cultural conditioning. To be docile as children, to invest time + energy and get along harmonious in all sorts of peer or social groups, etc. are advocated and pressured in most societies — we are social beings after all. If one is a natural “Lonewolf” (introverts enjoy being alone) or “compelled” to be one (in autistic spectrum case), they are thought to be an oddball, subtly ostracized by their communities.
As an immigrant and a highly sensitive limerent, I often felt doubly inadequate and courteously alienated until I finally gave up efforts to fit it and just to be an ethnic-stereotyped oddball, which actually allows me to be more spontaneous in social situations — with minimum expectations (for “right” reciprocity) and maximum curiosity.
It’s not the case “socializing” with LOs.
Sammy says
“I don’t feel (may change later) I want to totally get rid of this “burden”; I wish to use its residual power to help pursue something more “positive” or purposeful — exploring unknowns, learning more social skills, and creating something meaningful in my small life.”
@Snowphoenix.
Hm, yes. Can the highly-motivating force of limerence be harnessed to power other endeavours? That is an interesting question…
“To me, false guilt comes from parental “education” and cultural conditioning. To be docile as children, to invest time + energy and get along harmonious in all sorts of peer or social groups, etc. are advocated and pressured in most societies — we are social beings after all. If one is a natural “Lonewolf” (introverts enjoy being alone) or “compelled” to be one (in autistic spectrum case), they are thought to be an oddball, subtly ostracized by their communities.
As an immigrant and a highly sensitive limerent, I often felt doubly inadequate and courteously alienated until I finally gave up efforts to fit it and just to be an ethnic-stereotyped oddball, which actually allows me to be more spontaneous in social situations — with minimum expectations (for “right” reciprocity) and maximum curiosity.”
I was a very docile, compliant child. Unfortunately, despite my extremely obedient nature, I still got punished a lot! This “unjust punishment” produced a lot of unconscious anger in me – anger that the social world didn’t make sense.
In hindsight, I see that the adults who were punishing me thought I was being defiant when I wasn’t actually being defiant. Because I’m on the autism spectrum, it took me until quite late in life to master non-verbal communication skills, which comprise 97% of human communication apparently.
The fact I didn’t look teachers in the eye when they addressed me, for example, made them assume I was being intentionally disrespectful. Alternatively, the fact my face didn’t light up automatically when I saw classmates made classmates assume I didn’t like them or want to be included in games. So my whole life I’ve lived with this cognitive dissonance. Half the people who meet me insist I’m kind and well-behaved and the other half say I’m snobbish, rude, defiant, etc. So which is the real Sammy? In reality, I listened to authority figures but didn’t know I was supposed to show with my eyes/facial expressions that i was listening.
To do the right thing consistently in life, and then be accused of doing the wrong thing, is incredibly demoralising. I think that’s why some autistic people suffer from burnout. Also, a spirit of rebellion might set in. Some teenagers in this situation might reason: “Well, I’ve already done the time, might as well do the crime. If people keep punishing me for doing good, why shouldn’t I do bad?”
Now I’ve not that psychologically invested in doing the right thing. I realise if I just smile and make eye contact, I can manipulate just about anybody into believing I’m awesome. (Isn’t it horrible how the human social world actually works? Popularity is more about correct body language than genuine morals). 🙄
“It’s not the case “socializing” with LOs.”
I probably became besotted with my LOs because they were somewhat nice to me/talked to me despite the fact I wasn’t giving off the correct body language signals. I don’t know if there was something wrong with my LOs to make them happy to hang out with a “loser”. But social inclusion is social inclusion, and beggars can’t be choosers. It’s easy to see how often-excluded young people can fall into bad company if said bad company is perceived as less rejecting and more welcoming than good company. What a terribly sad world we live in! 🤔
C for cat says
I hear you, Sammy. I was so desperate to be accepted at school that I let my friends bully me and make me miserable. I was in constant conflict with my need to follow rules and not get into trouble, versus their rule-breaking and pressure on me to do the same. It was never anything bad but it was so stressful for me.
Sammy says
“I was so desperate to be accepted at school that I let my friends bully me and make me miserable. I was in constant conflict with my need to follow rules and not get into trouble, versus their rule-breaking and pressure on me to do the same. It was never anything bad but it was so stressful for me.”
@C for cat.
Yes, it can be very hard for neurodivergent people, or people with very strong introvert leanings, to navigate the everyday social world at times…
Probably up until grade ten, I was fine just being a studious bookworm type with one or two close friends. It didn’t matter that my peers considered me a “square”. (In Australia, in the late 90s, a “square” was someone considered tediously conventional, the total opposite of cool and exciting).
Then, toward the end of grade ten, something in me shifted. I wanted to be a part of and even to conquer the social world I had been neglecting for so long. I developed the strangest interest in … other people! I don’t know if my interest in the social world coincided with the emergence of vague sexual/romantic feelings. Perhaps my brain decided unconsciously that I’d never secure a mate until I made an effort to be less shy/awkward/self-contained.
Unfortunately, the people I liked romantically weren’t really available. I probably should have known they were unsuitable/unavailable. But I turned off the logical part of my brain and just chased after feelings of euphoria. I allowed myself only to be guided by emotion, and I neglected my schoolwork.
The teachers who gave me a hard time for being autistic were mostly supposedly enlightened primary school teachers, believe it or not. But by grade ten, maybe the cumulative effect of being misunderstood for years caught up with me, and I felt frustrated. I was a really good kid, a stickler for rules, etc, etc. But I never got to be a prefect because I didn’t have the social skills.
I wasn’t really bullied that much in school, because I usually didn’t react to bullying. So most bullies found me too boring to pick on. Bullies lost interest in me pretty quickly. However, I also had trouble joining large groups of all-male friends. I was reluctant to go swimming or to participate in team sports. I was timid.
If neurotypicals sometimes make the mistake of expecting everyone in the world to be neurotypical, as an autistic person, I made the reverse mistake of expecting everyone in the world to be autistic! 😆
I’ve kind of got my bearings in the social world now. But limerence didn’t help with the process. Or maybe limerence DID help with the process? Maybe limerence was my way of working through a lifetime worth of misunderstandings about other humans? And, of course, many of these misunderstandings cut both ways. I.e. I misunderstand neurotypicals and neurotypicals misunderstand me.
The best advice I can give another neurodivergent person regarding “fitting in” is don’t assume that other people (i.e. neurotypical peers and/or authority figures) are automatically hostile or malicious. Do not allow yourself to become bitter when you are misunderstood. Embrace the power of forgiveness – forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others. Do not keep records of wrongs in your heart.
Most human beings are really, really lovely and mean well. Yes, adolescent males DO go through a stage where they’re a bit disgusting and frighteningly loud and boisterous. But most grow out of that once they get girlfriends/wives.
Adolescent females, on the other hand, can go through a stage where they organise friendship groups around real and/or perceived social status. It can be distressing if you’re the kind of girl who doesn’t have the right kind of social capital. But (I hope) females too grow out of this cliquey behaviour once they become mothers.
Snowphoenix says
@Cfc, @Sammy
Your passages make me very sad here….
I’ve worked with high functioning kids in Autistic Spectrum at school, and it’s the SADDEST thing to watch in the whole world — their shyness, eagerness to observe others’ play, readiness to “give their life” for others’ friendly attention, and despair in their eyes with tear streaming down: “Why am I always nice to them, but they all refuse me in their games?”
Five years after the divorce, my exSD told me he has a self-diagnosed Asperger; if I knew beforehand, I would not walk away. He’s married again (w/ a woman from my ethnic group) with two kids and a partnership in a big law firm.
Sammy: your analysis of your school experiences are very accurate — both sides misunderstand each other, but AS kids got teased, isolated, or emotionally/mentally “punished”. The world is INDEED unfair to them.
I heard a story about a female (w/ Asperger) college student who consciously learned all possible social cues and body languages (infinite out there) and went all sorts of parties to practice. No one ever suspected she could have AS ! (she might have written a book about her experiences). The movie “Adam” (2009) tells such another story.
Children and adults in Autistic Spectrum are NOT losers. They’re so kind hearted and brilliant in their unique ways.
Nisor says
C for cat,
That’s what’s called peer pressure in schools. If you don’t mingle with rules breakers you’re considered a nerd. Thanks God I didn’t have to deal with peer pressure at any stage in my life.
How are you doing these days? 💪🏽
Sammy says
“Children and adults in Autistic Spectrum are NOT losers. They’re so kind hearted and brilliant in their unique ways.”
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you so much for your kind words. 🙂
Yes, of course, people on the spectrum aren’t losers. Unfortunately, however, when a young person doesn’t instinctively understand and give expected body language, they are sometimes branded as “losers” by insecure peers who don’t really understand the lack of reaction (or why a conspicuously wrong reaction was given).
Females on the spectrum are apparently better at “masking” autistic traits than males on the spectrum. This has upsides and downsides. On the upside, girls might fit in better. On the downside, girls might be less likely to get diagnosed and received professional support.
Since learning body language, my relationships with other males have improved greatly. For example, when someone tells a joke, they often signal with their eyes that they’re telling a joke. This might be hard for an autistic person to pick up on, even if they understand intellectually a joke is being told, and the punchline.
I think, as an autistic person, for the longest time, I couldn’t understand why neurotypicals spend so much time standing around and doing nothing, even when they’re … cough, cough … at work. Now I realise that bonding is a really important part of work. Body language is how humans give emotional context/nuance to speech. It’s been a steep learning curve for me, but I’m getting there… 😉
I can’t tell you how many neurotypical women over the years have thought I was flirting with them when all I was doing was staring at them blankly after they said something I didn’t quite grasp!! 🙄
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
The other interesting thing about being on the spectrum, at least for me, is pride.
What I mean by this is that some people on the spectrum don’t want to admit they’re on the spectrum, because they think autism implies there’s something wrong with them. In other words, some autistic people don’t want to ask for help when they need it – the feeling of shame that bubbles up within is too great. Alternatively, some parents of kids on the spectrum don’t even want to consider the possibility that their kids are different or have special needs. These parents also have some kind of shame response regarding help.
I think it’s wonderful how schools today seem to be a lot more supportive of children on the spectrum, and their parents too. In my family of origin, I think parent and child alike suffered in silence, overwhelmed by utterly inappropriate feelings of shame. It’s only now that I’m 40 I realise I don’t need to drown in shame all the time. I don’t need to feel bad constantly about being different. 😉
I think I’ve had two bona fide LOs in my life, and the appeal of both these young men was that they treated me as if I was normal. Could the explanation for my limerence in both cases really be that heartbreakingly simple? 😲
Snowphoenix says
@sammy
I just want to say an absolutely truth that from pieces of your passages here (also scanned bits here and there in older rooms of LwL), I could never tell you are in autistic spectrum! At one point, I was thinking that this person (thought you were a female when I first come at the end of July) could articulate so well, in a very organized way, about so many aspects of life….
I’m also fascinated by and your writing style and sophisticated English words and phrases (looked up them a lot) , as I’m still learning English and somewhat “obsessed” with how to express well in writing.
C for cat says
Sammy, “It didn’t matter that my peers considered me a “square”. (In Australia, in the late 90s, a “square” was someone considered tediously conventional, the total opposite of cool and exciting).” Try having a name that rhymes with ‘square’… great fun.
Nisor, thanks for thinking of me. I’m still on NC; it’s been a month now. Feels like much longer and I’m still in a depressive phase. Have my days when it’s a bit better but at the moment feel very sad. Rehearsals are starting next week for the play and it’s playing (haha) on my mind a lot. My SO will be going but I won’t be. Just found out the play after that only has one woman and she’s in her 30s so I’m too old for that too. And I’ve heard absolutely nothing from LO. Which is good I suppose but also hurtful. He’s not on social media much which is probably also good.
I’m still procrastinating starting therapy; which is frustrating. I know I need to and it will help (I hope) but I’m scared.
Sammy says
“I just want to say an absolutely truth that from pieces of your passages here (also scanned bits here and there in older rooms of LwL), I could never tell you are in autistic spectrum! At one point, I was thinking that this person (thought you were a female when I first come at the end of July) could articulate so well, in a very organized way, about so many aspects of life….
I’m also fascinated by and your writing style and sophisticated English words and phrases (looked up them a lot) , as I’m still learning English and somewhat “obsessed” with how to express well in writing.”
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you for your very kind words, and for thinking that I express myself well!!
I think you show some talent for written expression also. And practice can only improve performance! 😉
To be honest, it’s embarrassing that you thought I was/am female, but it’s not the first time it’s happened to me in life, so I won’t hold it against you. I grew up with a very talkative mother and lively two sisters, so most of my childhood conversational partners were female. I think some female “conversational patterns” have rubbed off on me. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing. 😆
I’m gay. Or, at least, other people have decided for me I’m gay, and there seems to be a ring of truth to it. I have always found other males “cute” and been fascinated by masculine confidence/energy. Something about the way the male body moves through time and space draws my eye. I like the natural athleticism of male bodies.
I’m not really sure how my sexuality developed in the direction it did. But I think the organisation of my brain may have played a role.
Basically, I don’t seem to have a “male brain” or a “female brain”. I seem to have been born with an “intermediate brain” i.e. a brain that’s stuck somewhere between a male brain and a female brain, and may combine the best (or worst) traits of both brain types. 😉
The upside of a having an intermediate brain is that I can hopefully empathise with both male/masculine concerns and female/feminine concerns and sometimes broker peace between the sexes. The downside of having an intermediate brain is incredible feelings of alienation from both sexes and the most horrifying/embarrassing sexual confusion that never seems to end…
I can “tap into” my male brain for insights and I can “tap into” my female brain for insights. But I can’t stay “tapped into” either brain, and therefore my status as a gendered entity is constantly on the verge of collapse. I want to be a garden-variety male. But I can’t maintain a stable sense of self, despite having a male body and a Y chromosome, as my brain is too muddled in terms of gender.
Regarding neurodiversity, I would say I have high-functioning Asperger’s Syndrome, which is no longer officially recognised as a diagnosis.
I have always suspected there was something different or “wrong” about me, compared to other people, because my whole life I have suffered from the most terrible anxiety. This anxiety gets so bad at times I want to die. This anxiety gets so bad that I no longer want to interact with people. Maybe this anxiety, and not limerence per se, is the “burden” I carry around with me everywhere I go?
I believe my lifelong anxiety stems from being an autistic person obliged to live in a neurotypical world. I thought that if I learnt enough about the world and about other people, then eventually some day maybe I could fit in? My anxiety has thankfully lessened as I’ve hit middle age. I realise that nobody has an easy life, or feels comfortable all the time in own skin. Too much self-pity is misplaced. But as I age, I also realise that I am different and different doesn’t mean “special” or “unique” or “brilliant” or “genius”. Different can often mean “extra stress” and that’s about it.
My whole life I’ve also struggled to connect with people, despite the fact I really, really like other people – especially males – and enjoy their company. My difficulties connecting with people, despite great efforts to connect with people, I think is another sign of autism.
A strange thing about me is that despite my autism and my sexual confusion, heterosexual women seem to be incredibly comfortable in my presence. I can offer straight women something that straight men can’t, but I have no idea what that something is. I think I can talk to a straight woman in the way a straight woman can talk to another straight women. (Maybe this is why you assumed me to be female when you read my writing?) In other words, I can engage women conversationally in the way women like to be engaged.
I think straight women often want to have deep conversations with husbands/boyfriends, and find that husbands/boyfriends can’t have these conversations, despite great affection for the woman in question. Husbands/boyfriends are baffled by “female conversational patterns”. Men like to talk about facts. Women want to talk about more than facts. Men are reluctant to talk about more than facts in case they (men) accidentally say something wrong.
I think heterosexuality is in crisis in the modern West. The reason heterosexuality is in crisis is not because men are unhappy with women. Most men are very happy with women. The reason heterosexuality is in crisis is because women (and by “women” I mean wives/ girlfriends) are unhappy with their male partners, or the quality of their relationships with said male partners.
In my opinion, if we want to “save marriage” or “preserve social monogamy as an ideal for future generations”, we need to understand better the causes of female unhappiness in relationships with men. We need to understand why straight women are unhappy being married to straight men. I’m not implying men have done anything wrong – not at all. I’m saying there’s some disconnect going on between the sexes that needs to be addressed. 😉
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
I’m still not good with Western names. Any time I see a name ending with “-y”, it sounded like a women’s name to me, although objectively boy’s and man’s nickname could end with ‘—y”.
“Basically, I don’t seem to have a “male brain” or a “female brain”. I seem to have been born with an “intermediate brain” i.e. a brain that’s stuck somewhere between a male brain and a female brain, and may combine the best (or worst) traits of both brain types. “
Here I want to ask: what are “male brain” and “female brain” traits? Are they neurochemical defined, or culturally based? I also ponder over definitions of “masculinity” and “femininity”. I told LO #5 that I am drawn to femininity in men, but can’t pin point what “femininity” in men and in women mean, same or slight different? I also think they are conceptualized differently in different cultures — a macho one or not. They also evolve in time. What is considered as “Tomboy” in my COO could be gender-neutral here.
“I believe my lifelong anxiety stems from being an autistic person obliged to live in a neurotypical world.” …. “My difficulties connecting with people, despite great efforts to connect with people, I think is another sign of autism.”
The major feature of Asperger (used to be different from extreme Autism) is that the former desperately wants to make friends and “fit in a neurotypical world” while the latter does not really care and enjoys their own company. I agree that your anxiety and sense of burden “stems from being an autistic person”; limerence is just its byproduct. Just like mine, cptsd is the main broader issue, limerence secondary. Words “unique”, “brilliant” or “genius” are often used to describe people’s talents, specific skills, or thinking patterns, our emotions are seldom taken into considerations or just ignored.
Always feeling misfit and socially anxious, I thought I had Asperger. So I went to a psychoanalysis for an evaluation; she told me I had acute cptsd, almost opposite of Asperger — highly sensitive to noise, crowds, loud music, and overly reactive to others facial expressions or body languages. I think cptsd and Asperger share a lot of common features in socialization, except that cptsd is related to a lot of traumas and abuses in one’s childhood.
“(Maybe this is why you assumed me to be female when you read my writing?) In other words, I can engage women conversationally in the way women like to be engaged.”
A lot of writing seems to be straightforward, concise, and dry with facts, statements, and common vocabularies. Your writing has a rhthem, like listening to a stream flowing — a stream of thoughts, emotions, and consciousness, shiny with rich, sophisticated words and phrases bubbling down. You use repetitions to emphasize your points, smooth connections between sentences, and freely associate with other concepts. I don’t see this style often either in male or female writing. It’s your unique one.
With some working experience and friendship with gay men, I can only say that it is easier to engage and stay in conversation with them. They seem to be more toned to or in harmony with female’s flows of expressions. With straight male, I always feel either tension, uneasiness, or awkwardness no matter how nice and seemingly easygoing they are. I can’t pin point such “discomfort”, but can sense it almost all the time; with gay men, not all.
That’s probably another reason I seek femininity in men; talking with them have more fluidity and being with them feels comfortable at ease.
“I think straight women often want to have deep conversations with husbands/boyfriends, and find that husbands/boyfriends can’t have these conversations, despite great affection for the woman in question. Husbands/boyfriends are baffled by “female conversational patterns”. Men like to talk about facts. Women want to talk about more than facts. Men are reluctant to talk about more than facts in case they (men) accidentally say something wrong.”
Very keen observation! The ego is often subconsciously involved in males’ talks, even with their wives and girlfriends; it’s a habit. Stimulating, challenging yet enjoyable conversation is an art, not a winning and losing game.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“Here I want to ask: what are “male brain” and “female brain” traits? Are they neurochemical defined, or culturally based? I also ponder over definitions of “masculinity” and “femininity”. I told LO #5 that I am drawn to femininity in men, but can’t pin point what “femininity” in men and in women mean, same or slight different? I also think they are conceptualized differently in different cultures — a macho one or not. They also evolve in time. What is considered as “Tomboy” in my COO could be gender-neutral here.”
Well, if we’re going to discuss gender, I’d like to preface my remarks by saying how nice it is to be talking to a female who admits to possessing a strong animus, a highly-developed masculine side, and who also loves men into the bargain! It’s interesting that you’re attracted to males with “feminine energy”. Males with artistic gifts supposedly possess a strong anima, a highly-developed feminine side, regardless of sexual orientation, and society apparently celebrates the femininity of artistically-inclined men. (Think poets such as Alfred, Lord Tennyson, for example).
Most of my ideas on sex/gender/sexuality come from Camille Paglia. I think she is right in many of the things she says. She seems to hold very traditional ideas about the differences between men and women, however, and argues these differences are rooted primarily in biology and not culture. Paglia’s highly conservative ideas about sex and gender, etc, make her unpopular with modern theorists, who are more inclined to argue that everything gender-related is socially constructed and there are no real differences between the sexes.
Paglia seems to believe that there is a male brain, which sexually mature adult men possess, and this brain is a product of biology. Paglia seems to believe there is a female brain, which sexually mature adult women possess, and this brain too is the product of thousands of years of evolution. It’s not a cultural by-product, in other words, or some grand conspiracy to keep women oppressed. (Not that women aren’t oppressed in many parts of the world).
Paglia believes that the existence of gay males can be explained by the concept of an intermediate brain, coupled with early childhood experiences. In other words, unorthodox sexuality of an exclusive kind in men is a product of BOTH nature and nurture. The exact balance of nature and nurture is not known.
Essentially, something a bit unusual has happened in the life of the male who studiously avoids female romantic company his entire life. Most adult men seek out female company to satisfy some deep primal urge within. Paglia also takes pains to stress how exceptionally RARE exclusive same-sex desire in adult men is. Women are, and will always be, the main focus of men’s Eros.
Paglia observes that gay men are more likely than straight men to be born with an artistic gene/rich emotional sensitivity. But straight men can be born with these highly-desirable traits too, so the women of planet earth don’t need to give up hope if they want to snag an arty man for themselves!
Gay men in groups of gay men tends to be very playful. There’s a lot of witty conversation happening, etc. Gay men, like artists and people on the autistic spectrum, show evidence of neoteny – the retention of childlike traits well into adult years. Gay men are lively company and very endearing. However, it is a very grave error for society, or for women, to pit gay men and straight men against each other. As wonderful as gay men are, the noble character and hard work and achievements of straight men must never be minimised.
Straight men are the ones who keep civilisation in smooth, running order – mostly by virtue of the very difficult jobs they perform under dangerous conditions and on an almost daily basis. Most of the privileges that modern women and children enjoy are enjoyed because of the current and historical sacrifices of straight men.
I think the innate difference between the sexes really become noticeable when people are over 40. Women are more sentimental than men, more nurturing toward the young, more in tune with emotions, more in touch with nature, tend to talk more and talk more about relationships, are less interested in sex without commitment. Women are less likely to break the law than men, but women are also less likely to achieve the heights of greatness.
Men, on the other hand, are more obsessive than women, more aggressive, more mechanically-minded, better at navigating time and space, need women to help them with emotions, rely on women for domestic services, have more competitive and “jokey” relationships with the same sex. Men are more likely to break the law than women. Men are more likely to achieve cultural greatness.
Paglia thinks that since women bring forth life, women often aren’t that ambitious as a sex. The inability of men to bring forth life may spurn male ambition in other areas where sustained effort can yield spectacular results. Women are slow-moving and sultry. Men are impulsive, fiery, uncertain of themselves, combative, restless. A man who has long hair is indicating he has a feminine streak.
One of my favourite writers is D. H. Lawrence. Lawrence had a wife named Frieda. Lawrence’s intellectual friends didn’t like Frieda. They thought Frieda was dull, and held her husband back. But Lawrence actually needed Frieda to be the man he was and the writer he was.
Lawrence, like all great artists, was a little bit unhinged, you see. He was a little bit mad. He was grandiose at times. Frieda was the person who laughed at Lawrence when Lawrence was going off-track. In essence, Frieda, a woman, helped to ground Lawrence in reality, even though Lawrence remained narcissistic to the end. (All great artists are narcissistic). Frieda was good for Lawrence, in other words. She wasn’t “dull”; she was the “yin” to Lawrence’s “yang”.
“A lot of writing seems to be straightforward, concise, and dry with facts, statements, and common vocabularies. Your writing has a rhthem, like listening to a stream flowing — a stream of thoughts, emotions, and consciousness, shiny with rich, sophisticated words and phrases bubbling down. You use repetitions to emphasize your points, smooth connections between sentences, and freely associate with other concepts. I don’t see this style often either in male or female writing. It’s your unique one.”
Thank you for the compliment. I think my writing style can be explained by my unusual brain. Basically, the pedantry and intellectual showing-off is the male side of my brain coming to the fore and the rhythmic movement of words and emotional flourishes are the female side. Ideally, the male side of my brain and the female side of my brain work in concert to create something beautiful. Ideally, the male side of my brain and the female side of my brain are always in constant conversation with one another. I try to let neither side of my brain “win the debate” too often. 😉
Nisor says
Sammy,
“What a terrible sad world we live in!”
Happiness in life is not a solid straight line. Happiness is just beautiful moments that occur in peaks in that solid straight line. Some have more peaks of happiness than others. Seems unfair… maybe because of the choices we make, the environment we live in is not helpful, our appearance, health, it could be many things beyond our control. But there must be an equilibrium to all these.
Happiness is described as a long term sense of contentedness with life, that you’re at peace in the world, pleased with your choices and the way life is playing out…and harmony, but how does one accomplish that? Again, for some this is handed to them in a silver platter, for others it is not so.
We have to find the purpose of life, Bertrand Russell, an atheist, said:
“Unless you assume a God, the question of life purpose is meaningless.”
In the epistle to the Colossians, apostle Paul says:
“For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible…everything started in Him. (God)
Mainly, we look inside ourselves for answers, but shouldn’t we also look outside ourselves? To God, and the equilibrium of the supernatural where our spirit resides , that part of us that looks for the divine? For we are body, soul and spiritual beings. The body being the flesh and bones, the soul, the seat of our emotions, the spirit, that which transcends to the supernatural, the part of us that searches the infinite/God.
I came across a book named: “ The purpose driven life” by Rick Warren, (what on earth am I here for?). I just started reading it and find it eye opening, after reading so much philosophy all my life, I think I can go to the source of life, perhaps I find the answers to many of my questions???
Also, in the internet there’s this writer/poet named John Donahue who wrote this exquisite, beautiful essay on beauty and Eros.
“John Donahue- on Beauty-why we fall in love, and how the life force of desire vitalizes us.?”
Have a nice week.
Sammy says
@Nisor.
Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions. Appreciated. 😛
Nisor says
Sammy,
In your post of august 31, you stated that you ‘can offer straight women something that straight men can’t, but you have no idea what that something is.’
Your assumptions there are right. You lend ‘an ear ‘. Most straight men have no patience listening to women talk. Only listen if the women want something fixed or some intimacy…
Women want to be listened to with all their attention, not just in a hurry, for men always seem to be in a hurry to do something else.
And sometimes they fake they’re listening, when you ask them if they understood what you said, they say, can you repeat what you said? It’s frustrating. Me as a straight female, have to “force” my SO to listen to me or else everything goes wrong, from shopping to planning a vacation, etc. And he’s an excellent SO, otherwise. I consider I have plenty of experience with straight men since small. I grew up among two brothers! I preferred following them and playing their games. They were more interesting to me than my sisters. They always treated me nice and when I could not keep up with them, for they were stronger and riskier, they had the patience to help me along, like when climbing trees or jumping in the rivers, etc. ( we grew up in a six acres of land, plenty to do and discover in nature). We never had arguments but also didn’t engage in many deep conversations. After finished with outside adventures, they’ll go and play with their trucks and fake guns and I’ll play with my dolls. What I mean to say is, it is easier for me to relate to men than girls. I find most straight women boring, I’m not interested in cooking subjects or knitting, baking cookies, gossip, etc. that’s what most of them talk about. It’s boring to me. (If I find interesting straight women I keep a close friendship with them. )Instead, if I was interested in a straight man I wanted to know his hobbies. If he liked soccer I didn’t mind going with them to a match and enjoying it myself, or horse track racing and betting, mountain climbing , a chess game, etc. I love risky men, even though I’m not a risky woman. I let SO have his time alone with other male friends.I like my “alone time”, away from my SO. And he gets his. They don’t like clingy or needy spouses . Most straight men ( that I know) like talking about business, football and other sports, cars, guns,
History, electronic gadgets , politics , traveling, etc. if a straight woman doesn’t know about these subjects she cannot relate, I believe. That’s why us, most women, I think ,
have other women friends to share feelings and to get away from their husbands kind of talk that most straight women don’t find interesting.
Ah , yes, straight men are very interesting creatures! Like you, I like the ‘natural athleticism of male bodies.’ They may behave like savages sometimes, but they become docile when they surrender while laying in a woman’s bust. Can’t blame them, they have too much energy!
You opened a can of 🪱 worms here…
Sammy says
@Nisor.
“You opened a can of 🪱 worms here…”
I apologise if I opened a can of worms… Not my intention at all. (Or was it?) 😆
“What I mean to say is, it is easier for me to relate to men than girls.”
Funny story. I haven’t read many of your posts. But from the ones I read I assumed you were … a man! And probably some staid clergyman at that! 😜 That’s purely because you seem to take a more cerebral approach to discussing limerence, and show an interest in the intellectual ins and outs. (I guess my own gender biases are showing!) 😲
“I consider I have plenty of experience with straight men since small. I grew up among two brothers!”
The dissident feminist scholar Camille Paglia says that straight women who grow up with brothers are often the best at relating to straight men because they know from firsthand experience what men are like and they know not to take men too seriously!! 😉
Some women grow up in very sheltered environments and they entertain this lifelong fear of men that they never overcome. They don’t understand, like their more resilient sisters, that men are sort of big clowns at the end of the day. I don’t mean any disrespect to men when I say that. I like pretty much everything about the male of the species. I’m a huge fan of men. But the truth is: men are nothing without women. Most men do need a good woman in their lives.
Basically, in successful heterosexuality, the woman has the upper hand in the relationship and that’s a good thing for both sexes. The man accepts the woman has the upper hand. (Clever women pretend that the man is in charge of things, when really she’s helping him make all the right moves on the chessboard of life).
I think there’s a bit of good-natured deception going on in all happy marriages. Straight women have to “trick” husbands into believing the latter are superior, but happily-married men and women both secretly know who’s top banana. (It’s the woman, thank God!) 😆
A happily married man once told me that the correct response to all his wife’s complaints was: “I’m so sorry, honey. I’m just so sorry.” This response calmed his wife down, because she felt her spouse heard her feelings. Less enlightened men (like my father, unfortunately) might try to argue with the woman over the logic over the situation. Not a good relational move – not even if the man is objectively right about whatever the couple is arguing about. 🙂
Men are beautiful, beautiful creatures. I adore the physicality of men. Men are special. Men are splendid. But happy, healthy, well-adjusted adult men need to be “managed” by some level-headed woman up to the task. If a man is married to a good woman, he has nothing to fear from the fair sex. But the man should recognise his wife’s superior judgement in many matters. Oh, who I kidding? The man should recognise his wife’s superior judgement in … all matters.
🤣
Marriage is a game at the end of the day. Woman, by default, is the winner of that game. (Biology has given Woman many social and emotional gifts the average male lacks). Men must not be sore losers in love. When a man lets a woman “win the game of marriage”, he also wins – not just at mating, but at life itself. In other words, the happiest and most fulfilled straight men alive are graceful, gracious “losers” in the power struggle between the sexes. 😉
A man secure in his masculinity knows that his wife is top banana, and he doesn’t really have a problem with that… 😉
Snowphoenix says
“Can the highly-motivating force of limerence be harnessed to power other endeavours? That is an interesting question…”
Yes, one can — Dr L read Parcel Proust and got a PhD to impress his LOs, respectively…
Without letting the limerence energy die out, I’ll try to channel it into more purposeful goals, besides expressing, analyzing my past LEs and understanding myself better, which is a self-discovering journey itself.
Snowphoenix says
Marcel Proust… oh, those typos! 🫣
Nisor says
Sammy,
You’re correct again. I’m loving you so much!!!
Didn’t have a reply button in your text. So
Im posting here.
“I’m so sorry, honey, I’m just so sorry.”
If only men had the understanding of what a weight those words carry there would be no divorces. eh. This kind of response (at least for me) would definitely calm me down. But some men , like my SO, are pigheaded and want to win the argument no matter how illogical they sound. In the long run, they do as the wife said but won’t admit it. ha, we know, but keep quiet and smile inside.
What do I want in a man ( and most women I suppose), mostly, protection and security, provision, intimacy, commitment, understanding,
love and great sex.
It’s a whole package. I could provide for myself, as I did while single, I had a great job I loved, but I’m a passionate woman , which means if I work I’m all in! No time for housewife duty or children care. It’s either one or the other, not both. I’d mess up one or the other.
I decided to stay home and be all in with housewife duty and mom duties.(and social life of course, and we had the economic resources to do it.) I did a good job, so my SO tells me , family and friends. Not regretting it. (46 years of marriage and going !)
What can I do, I’m a passionate woman!
Don’t know if the younger generation would like to stay home and bring up children and play housewife . I don’t even know if I myself would like to do it again, if I were given another chance at life…
Have a marvelous and fruitful week.
C for cat says
I’m so glad you’ve done this, Dr L – it’s so difficult when you’ve commented on a post and then the next day it’s completely disappeared because everyone in a different time zone has commented on other posts and you can’t remember which one the one you commented on was. For a while I kept a list but it got too long.
I really like the idea of keeping comments on topic and then using the coffeehouse for general discussion.
And I’d like to add my thanks – if it hadn’t been for this blog and your book I wouldn’t be where I am now – working with my SO to help me move forward and avoid painful and destructive LEs in future. And be able to see my most recent LO again, as I have to, without falling apart!
ABCD says
@Sammy.
Yes, absolutely. I agree there is a lot of intensity in LE. I guess what I was trying to say was that in order to get over LE, if one could work towards tuning down the intensity switch, that may help?
Sammy says
“I guess what I was trying to say was that in order to get over LE, if one could work towards tuning down the intensity switch, that may help?”
@ABCD.
Ah yes. I understand what you mean. I guess the first step is to admit (to oneself) maybe that one is being really, really intense over someone, if one hasn’t already done that? 😜
Snowphoenix says
@ABCD @ Sammy
It was really this helpless intensity bothered me most, because it’s mind boggling that my normally logical mind just could not fend off those utterly useless rumination over an unavailable person, who unknowingly (or manipulatively) intermittently made me either idiotically giddy or triggered that devilish abandonment melange.
As time passes, the intensity does wane but could be strengthened again if LO is physically within (long or short) sight. I agree with Sammy that clear awareness and acceptance of the undeniable affects of limerence, could enable us to tune down the volume with “ease” — not smash the knob!
I’m still using meditation daily as a tool to reduce rumination (not sweet nostalgia); I believe, it would never completely disappear but could be tuned down.
Anonymous Forum Person says
There IS still a forum, it’s not connected to this site any more, but it’s compatible with the LWL approach and run very much like the old forum here was. Many of us old forum regulars hang out there.
http://limerenceforums.com
Anonymous Forum Person says
Anonymous Forum Person says
Mila says
I knew it!! And I even found that I signed up some time 🤦🏻♀️which I completely forgot about.
I still doubt that it’s good for me to spend so much time on these sites at the moment, it fuels my ruminations too much.
But thank you very much for the hint!
Dr L says
Thanks, Anon. Yes, it was only the LwL-hosted forum that shut down.
[N.B. I’ve blanked the duplicate posts, as if I delete them we lose Mila’s comment too]
Mila says
Well, my comment is not that memorable😅feel free to delete it!
Dr L says
Every comment counts! 🙂
Mila says
@Dr L, as considerate as ever:)
Anonymous Forum Person says
LOL, thanks, Dr L.
Adam says
“What is my fantasy about LO and self?”
Sammy,
I don’t know what I wanted from her. I had fantasies all over the place from running away with her abroad to her and her gentleman friend being family friends. I just wanted her present. I wanted to know she would be there each day and I could feel the relief that I wasn’t alone in life. And I’ve told my wife about these fantasies when she asks. The limerence was like having intense Eros love for a dear friend and the shame of it.
“To me, false guilt comes from parental “education” and cultural conditioning.”
Snowphoenix
Yes, I agree. I gave myself a ton of shame and grief if my thoughts of LO were of her as a woman. And most of that comes from my religious upbringing. That even thoughts of that kind are a sin.
One hit me so bad as she was about to say something to me, that I had to leave the room. I saw her a bit later when it had passed and she asked me if everything was alright. I told her I had just forgot something and wanted to do it before I forgot again.
But for the most part those kind of thoughts were rare, but always intrusive.
Snowphoenix says
@Adam,
Coming from the “similar cultural” background somewhat like yours, I totally understand your inner thoughts. We women used to be taught to feel shameful or dirty or even slutty if we unknowingly arose carvel wandering in men.
Then I learned in France, women feel offended if men don’t graciously/respectfully complement and flirt (NOT glimmer at) with them in social settings, because it hints they are not attractive enough, their womanhood is thus indirectly insulted. I think it’s really cool psychology😀 The same goes with men and manhood, just look at those “peacock showoff” when men are around women, what for? They love to get admiration look showered on them.
It’s the nature of human and other sentient beings, which if we resist, would bring ourselves unnecessary shame, guilt and other idiotic sufferings.
Adam says
I guess it was a bit of my upbringing and a bit of my limerence. I saw her through a “pure” lens. A woman of upstanding morals. One of God’s children. And I even defended her purity against any suggesting she was anything less. So having those occasional intrusive thoughts of her in a not pure way gave me much shame.
Lol I remember a conversation with my co-workers where someone said something about LO’s possible love life, sometime after she started seeing someone. And I made the comment to them when it was suggested that they uh, you know … I said ‘no they haven’t.’ ‘Why do you know that for sure.’ I said ‘Because the last time angels and humans fraternized together we got a global apocalypse. That hasn’t happened yet.’ Lol I don’t think most of them got what I was saying.
Snowphoenix says
@Adam
😀 Forgive me to be frank, I think for your own benefits, some kind of reprogramming should be in line….
My COO (culture of origins) made me suffer all my life until I stumbled into LwL…. If naively becoming a center of a heart-wrenching tragedy or shameful gossip, I wanted to know WHY? As soon as I was able to rationalize WHY and HOW, I could put myself in distance, and more “objectively” watch the show, or even romanticize ME in it, eg envision myself as Quasimodo for Esmeralda. Then, I could feel noble or immortalized…
Serial Limerent says
@Adam
I’m new and have been lurking around here for a bit. I haven’t decided yet if I have the courage to post about my current LE, though it’s good to see people here don’t seem to judge each other for their extramarital attractions. (So many forums want to give you a scarlet letter!) In the meantime, it helps just to read other people’s experiences.
But I wanted to let you know that I got the angel/human joke and it made me chuckle. I’ve actually read the Book of Enoch, and the band Ascension of the Watchers did a whole album based on it. 🙂
Adam says
Snowphoenix
I had the fictional scenarios of being the hero. They may not have been associated with other fictional works, but it was a great distraction for me so I did fixate on her as a woman. If I was the friendly platonic hero that saved her in various situations it would keep my mind from wandering to the depths of carnal things.
I don’t pretend to think I am perfect and will never find women other that my wife attractive. I am not naive to think that my wife hasn’t ever seen another man as sexy or attractive. As you said before it’s a part of human nature. But the intensity of limerence made it seem so much more shameful.
Serial Limerent
A lot of people here in this community have told me, I am my own worst critic. I judge myself harsher than anyone here. So I can understand your apprehension to share. I can tell you that the people of this community have helped me come a long way since I found this place back in January. No one has ever judged me. They have helped me come a long way to getting over the shame and guilt I still somewhat carry for this limerence. But you should also feel comfortable before you post anything. And no one will pressure you into that.
I am glad you got it. I got raised a Christian and my folks were very adamant (when I reached the age it was feasible) that I read the Bible for a least 30 minutes a day. As a young boy the Flood was one of my favorite accounts to read. As an older teen it was Song of Solomon 🙂
IMHO says
@serial limerent
Welcome !
You picked the right person to correspond with on your first post. Adam is very compassionate, generous and indeed maybe ‘too’ self-deprecating. I also feel tentative on sharing too much of my own LE. It has helped me though figure stuff out. For me it’s been a full-on bolt out of the blue undermining my ‘true self’. It takes time to read, learn and come up with a plan. ‘Summer’ helped me a lot and I miss her here. I re-read blogs and posts of great intelligent advice from LwL community to keep me heading in the right direction.
Very best wishes
Adam says
IMHO
Thank you for your kind words. I’ve had so many people respond to me initially when I first posted here that I try to do the same. Miss Lovisa was the first person to respond. I miss her. Then there was Limmy, who I miss too and Marcia and L.E. and frederico. So many people have left or post sparingly, for their own reasons, that have helped so many new people here. I’m just trying to pitch in and help with my random ramblings.
Sammy says
“I don’t know what I wanted from her. I had fantasies all over the place from running away with her abroad to her and her gentleman friend being family friends. I just wanted her present. I wanted to know she would be there each day and I could feel the relief that I wasn’t alone in life. And I’ve told my wife about these fantasies when she asks. The limerence was like having intense Eros love for a dear friend and the shame of it.”
@Adam.
Yes, it’s interesting. Sometimes, we don’t want anything specific from an LO.
I remember thinking that any kind of physical intimacy between me and LO would be inappropriate. So then I had fantasies about us being best friends in the next life, where people don’t have fleshy desires because they’re angels, or some such.
Some part of my brain must have known that the attraction was related to human sexual instincts, and hence the omnipresent undercurrent of “guilt” regarding the infatuation.
As Dorothy Tennov says, the LO must be someone one can see as a potential sexual partner. There must be some level of attraction there. But sex isn’t the primary focus of limerence, but rather reciprocation of intense feelings. 🤔
Nisor says
Hi Sammy
I came across the following article today and I find it super interesting. Perhaps you’ve seen it before?
It’s a long one, 34 pages . I will recommend it to all limerents to read it. Since we are all looking on how best explain this phenomenon occurring to us. We get the science neurological side of it from Dr. L, which is a great relief in itself!!
HERE IT GOES:
“DIVINE MADNESS “
By:
Keith Sutherland , on the aetiology of Romantic Obsession.
“ The paper opens with a brief overview of “Limerence “ or obsessive love disorder (OLD) from the perspectives of psychology and sociology, but concludes that certain unique characteristics of the condition suggests it is better understood as a form of “divine madness”; resulting from the failure of the platonic ascent of love to follow its natural trajectory… etc etc.
Courage and strength to you and all limerents, a wonderful weekend to all the LwL community.
Adam says
First off Nisor, I am so thankful to you for posting this article. I am reading it now. Ten pages in and so much of it is so familiar in things I see in myself. So many things. Explaining to myself about the ONE. Why it was only LO that grabbed my attention and may only ever be LO. I really like this …
“‘As the light of the sun makes the pleasant shade of the tree exist and appear, so the Good makes Beauty shine in all things beautiful” — Socrates
It’s true. LO wasn’t any less physically attractive from the day I first met her than she was more attractive the last day I saw her. It’s because I got to see the Good that was inside her and that made the Beauty shine. It was HER. Was I trying to pair bond subconsciously? Was it who she was as a person that I was limerent for not a pretty young face?
Though the case of Vines (which I had never heard of before) makes me worried. As no one has been in my head, single or married, like LO. Just the ONE; her.
“But it’s hard to imagine that Edward Vines would have been prepared to accept even a near-identical clone of Emily Maitlis — there was only ONE person who could satisfy his unrequited passion.”
I am going to keep reading. Maybe I can find out why LO is the ONE and if she will always be. Or if I can escape this. Don’t know if I can and know I don’t want this to go on for 25 years like Vines.
Adam says
“The vernacular use of words like ‘angel’ by lovers is more literal than they might think (Hazlitt, 2008, p. 76).”
She probably could have made me believe in God again. I frequently referred to her as “an angel” to others. I’ve over the years referred to my wife as “an angel”. (Though funny enough when I called my wife that in front of her sister when we first met she said ‘yeah an angel whose halo is held up by horns.” lol)
So according to Platonic philosophy I am seeking out the Good through LO. And to Christians it’s God. Ok I’ll admit my brain was on board the first twenty pages or so. The limerence extrapolation discussion was on point. It taught me new things about limerence. The real life and fictional examples of limerents and LO’s was very informative. But when the philosophy started getting intense I got kind of overwhelmed. That part of it definitely is going to get another reading. If not the whole paper.
Contemplating LO as a conduit to something divine I am a bit skeptical about. Not so much his conclusions based on the cited philosophers works, but just the idea in general being reality. But then the most philosophy I have read in any detail is Nitecheze and bit of Kant. The concept seems to be too far fetched. But then I guess my agnostic view of divine beings and/or a greater to purpose to life might be why. Academically it seems well thought out. I laughed that he said Augustine “synthesized Neoplatonism with Christianity by removing one vowel”.
I also really like the succinct chapter on transference 🙂 As it is pretty much how I feel about it.
“Many sufferers from limerence experience it in serial form — moving from one target to the next over the course of a lifetime. Whilst this might provide relief for the current LO, it is just kicking the can further down the road.”
If anything came negative of my limerence I hope that LO can forgive me. I didn’t want to make her suffer. Quite to the contrary I wanted to make up for all the bad that she had been through. The heartache of a cheating husband. The hard work it takes to be a single mother. Even if it was in the little things. To see her smile or laugh and try to brighten her day. If I was intrusive or over-bearing to her I couldn’t bear it. I would never want another LO. I would not want to do that to another woman. Though I doubt that will happen.
“This would also suggest that limerence has little to do with sexual
objectification, whereby a person is viewed as an ‘inhuman body”
For me I can relate to his conclusion over Tennov’s that Sammy posted up above. It was never about anything physical for me. LO didn’t glimmer because of her looks. Sure she grabbed my attention because of her looks the first time I met her. But I’m neither dead, blind, or gay. And I don’t even think that last one would make a difference. But it never went beyond that. Honestly my LO fantasies were G rated, maybe PG at the most.
” Tennov’s interviewees were well acquainted with their LO and it was inconceivable to them that the LO could be replaced by someone with similar objective characteristics.”
This is also another thing that makes me think. Back in my early 20’s (I’ve shared this somewhere on this site before) I became very enamored with a young lady that I grew up with that went to church with me. I knew her for a long time but it wasn’t until she was a woman that I noticed her as a man. I am not sure if I was limerent for her. I was very obsessive about getting reciprocation for my feelings for her and did a lot of the same things for her I did with LO but when she made it clear (finally … please ladies don’t string us along just for the attention) that she was not interested in a relationship I got over it fairly quickly. Little too much gin, lots of Air Supply and time alone and I got over her.
But it’s surprising how much LO is like her. In hair, height, build, personality, laugh and smile. The only difference really was their skin color. It makes me wonder if I was unconsciously trying to relive a more happy outcome through LO that I didn’t get with her. Especially since the glimmer for LO came after I got to know her more not at a superficial level.
I better stop of I will get a headache lol. Again Nisor thank you for posting this. It is and will continue to help me understand my limerence and myself.
Sammy says
@Nisor.
Thank you for sharing link to paper. I haven’t read it before. And it provides quite an extraordinary overview of the subject of obsessive love!!
Some things that stood out for me:
Limerence is “hard to understand from a purely Darwinian perspective”. (p. 80).
Limerence makes more sense for females than males, because males are supposedly evolved to spread seed far and wide, and yet there’s no evidence that females are more predisposed to limerence than males. (p 80).
Limerence is “dysfunctional from a social perspective”. (p. 85).
Dorothy Tennov apparently thought limerence could affect up to 42% of human beings, males and females equally. (p. 87).
Limerence may be a “spiritual transformation gone wrong”. (p. 87).
Love and hate involve the same areas of the brain. Love and hate both can lead to extreme behaviour. (p. 94)
“Many sufferers from limerence experience it in serial form…” (p. 95).
The quotes I’ve picked out are mostly science-related, which reflects my interest in understanding limerence from a biological perspective. So it’s a bit of a shock to learn that evolution actually does a poor job of explaining limerence – at least in males! 😲
Like Adam, I found some of the philosophical section a bit heavy-going. The general idea seems to be that the contemplation of beauty can be a doorway to the divine. I think a lot of modern minds aren’t really trained in the art of contemplation. I think modern minds equate beauty with sexuality and not with the divine. I think the philosophy section would make more sense to people living in ancient times or medieval times, and trained in contemplation.
“Divine madness” is a great term for limerence. Although, I think the ancient Greeks called it “the madness FROM the gods”.
Since coming out of the altered state of limerence, my emotions have settled down so much that I hardly recognise myself. But I agree that limerents at times must love and hate their LOs in equal measure. Divine madness indeed.
The musician David Bowie apparently experienced limerence at some point in his life and said that the experience was so overwhelming he believed it must have something to do with searching for God (i.e. something that makes us aware of the divine).
I guess the takeaway from the article might be that modern human beings might benefit from incorporating spirituality into their lives in some way, if only to provide a socially-acceptable outlet for limerent-type feelings? 🤔😉
Adam says
“As Dorothy Tennov says, the LO must be someone one can see as a potential sexual partner. There must be some level of attraction there. But sex isn’t the primary focus of limerence, but rather reciprocation of intense feelings.”
Sammy
Is my denial of that the reason the limerence lingers I wonder? It seems like such a bad thing to entertain. It makes me feel selfish or immoral. It’s fine to admit that she is an attractive woman. Anyone could see that. But beyond that it’s not right.
I could see that, yes, she would be a great candidate to pair bond with. She held down a job, single mother that loved her children, motivated, determined, strong willed woman. She had a lot of great qualities that would make a good mate/partner/wife. A woman that took the blow of spending all those years and raising two daughters for him to cheat on her. I can’t imagine what that feels like. But she plowed through all that $hit and came out on the other side.
I don’t think I ever wanted that kind of reciprocation. That she would talk to me and smile and laugh at my bad dad jokes was enough. I wasn’t upset to see her with someone, I was upset she left. I was not saddened by the loss of some of her attention to another man I am saddened with the loss of her. But she seems happy now. And that’s all that matters.
MJ says
@Adam,
I feel that pain of the loss too. Even though LO is in close proximity, work is not the same now that she is not in the building regularly. I’m out of place if I go next door and really have no business being there. But its still not off limits. I’m afraid I would be bothering her if I showed up, so I’d rather stay in my lane. Let her go where she will and if she comes around here again, then so be it. If she is happier where she is at now, then good for her. I’ll try to maintain my happiness for her, the best I can.
DmmitHardison says
That really helps the depression and other issues I talked about the other night (and yes that is severe sarcasm).
I feel like this just validates the point: I will never be good enough or right in any feelings I have. It kinda makes me sick to my stomach, as if throwing up 4 times today wasn’t harsh enough.
I honestly feel like I’m back in high school being laughed at, behind my back, to my face, for having feelings and others wondering how I could be *that* dumb thinking I was worth something.
If she is *the ONE* where do I even begin to fit in? Just the female that had your 2 boys that I went through the fires of hell to get them here and took care of them while you chased rigs as you point out so often. (for those that don’t know what that means, allow an oilfield brat to explain….. it means being in the parts supply side of things, going to rigs that call in orders. That rig may be 15 minutes away from the shop/your house or it could be 3 hours from the shop or house, the call may come at 1pm or 3am. I am an oilfield brat because my dad worked on rigs until I was 14..I’m the baby of the family.. which meant he might have been 10 miles from home or 200 yards from the Texas/Mexico border, home every night or gone for 6 days; home for 3.) I never blamed you or resented the job and trust that you were home with them more than you think or remember.
This is why I said I’d rather have tattoos and piercings, better to have pain that’s constructive rather than destructive to myself.
I meant my marriage vows but I’m never going to be an ethereal anything….I’ve got too many physical, psychological, and emotional scars to compete with that. 🙁
I ask you things and you won’t say it, I have to come here and read it….. because you don’t want to see the tears? They happen, I cry..mad, sad, embarrassed, frustrated, wrecked..even happy…..I’ve been that way for 40+ years. I’m sorry.
🙁 A
DmmitHardison says
ps: Yes, my halo is held up by horns and somewhat lopsided, all 3 of us girls got that from Mama, proudly.
Sammy says
“Is my denial of that the reason the limerence lingers I wonder? It seems like such a bad thing to entertain. It makes me feel selfish or immoral. It’s fine to admit that she is an attractive woman. Anyone could see that. But beyond that it’s not right.”
@Adam.
I don’t think your denial of the sexual element in limerence is the reason your, or anyone else’s limerence, lingers…
I think what happens in limerence is that our brains get washed in all these chemicals and these chemicals make both the world and LO seem technicolour – really, really beautiful and meaningful.
Then, after this technicolour thingy happens, some switch flicks on in the brain which starts a train of obsessive thoughts about the person. Often, one starts swinging between feelings of ecstasy and feelings of despair/misery. The misery is as intense as the ecstasy. All the emotions one feels are going to be greatly intensified.
“I don’t think I ever wanted that kind of reciprocation. That she would talk to me and smile and laugh at my bad dad jokes was enough. I wasn’t upset to see her with someone, I was upset she left. I was not saddened by the loss of some of her attention to another man I am saddened with the loss of her. But she seems happy now. And that’s all that matters.”
It’s good that you can be happy that’s she’s happy. I mean, romantic love can make people do selfish things and romantic love can make people do noble things. I think, however, most limerents, oscillate between selfish and noble impulses!! I.e. I want this person for myself; I want this person to be happy regardless. 😉
I was watching a cheesy Disney movie with my Dad last night. Two female characters were having a conversation and declaring their love for two male characters. My Dad said: “I wonder how they know how to define love?” I.e. how do they know how to define love in order to declare themselves in love? What is love, in other words?
My Dad said he thought a good definition of love is “when you’re with that person, you don’t notice the rest of the world”. My Dad also observed that this form of “love” doesn’t last. I think my dad’s definition of love here is limerence, and not love per se.
I asked my dad if he felt this when he and my mother first got together, and he said yes. He also said he experienced (the total obsession with one person) when I was a child and he a parent. I.e. only my child exists. Other children don’t seem to exist in the world. I’m so absorbed right now in being a parent to my child.
So I think my parents’ marriage did start off with mutual limerence. I think my dad could transition to affectionate bonding, whereas my mother stayed stuck in limerence the whole marriage, leading to a lot of tension. (Possibly an anxious attachment style on her part, childhood trauma, difficulties relating to the male sex in general).
Inside our minds, we sometimes conduct epic romances with our LOs, but they’re not necessarily conducting epic romances inside their minds with us – although they might be very good people. 😉
It’s mainly brain chemicals that produce all the other-worldly feelings and encourage fantasies that the LO is some heavenly creature, etc. Don’t feel guilty about what’s happened with you. Rather, realise that you’ve experienced a lot of other people have experienced also. The intensity of your sadness will fade with time.
Mila says
“inside our minds, we sometimes conduct epic romances with our LOs, but they’re not necessarily conducting epic romances inside their minds with us – although they might be very good people. 😉“
Sammy, sometimes you hit the nail on the head with amazingly precise words!
Snowphoenix says
@ Mika @sammy
Such realization of each time is like a bucket cold water pouring over head… it hurts as well as ridicules my ego pride.
When standing in front of LO and chatting peacefully, I was just stunned that how on earth I could “conduct any romance” even no barrier existed! LO looks like as ordinary as others, and feels like a Martian inside my system.
The limerence is indeed a long dream in which a pathetic limerent directing a mad romantic show inside my head.
Limerent Emeritus says
Adam,
Adam,
Did you read your wife’s post? It’s time to decide who and what’s really important to you. We get it. Your LO got inside your head.
People have limits.
Your wife may be reaching hers.
Dr L says
Agreed. Adam, it’s probably time to take a break from analysing LO here and concentrate on building bridges.
C for cat says
Yes, I’m not sure how positive it is for your real relationship for you both to be on this forum, Adam. There comes a point where you have to decide which way to jump.
MJ says
“I think what happens in limerence is that our brains get washed in all these chemicals and these chemicals make both the world and LO seem technicolour – really, really beautiful and meaningful.”
@Sammy,
That was beautifully worded. So beautiful that even I see it in Technicolor..
@Adam,
There was a ton of underlying sadness in your wife’s post. Go to her.
Adam says
“If she is *the ONE* where do I even begin to fit in?”
Momma,(for those that don’t know being a lot of people have left the community, this is my wife) she isn’t the ONE. That’s just what my brain tells me. You are the reason are sons are the men that they are. Yes you did raise them almost on your own. Yes you did go through hell bringing them into this world. And they are, and I am eternally grateful for your hard work and sacrifice.
As we talked about last night this is all in my head. And I know that you didn’t ask for this. You didn’t ask to be dragged into this. Our boys didn’t ask to be dragged into this. And as I told you last night I am sorry for this. For what I have done to my family. But I am trying to pull myself out of this. And I am also sorry I don’t do well with saying the things I say here to you in person. But I am glad I was able to last night.
As I told you last night the rescue complex is the biggest part of this attachment. It’s been an issue in almost every romantic relationship that I have been in.
I try. I played Warframe with our son last night without music. I watched The Shooter last night. Yesterday at work I mostly listened to classical music or watched educational videos on youtube to pass the down time. I am trying to not remind myself of her. Focus on you and our son at home. Like now I am going to play some more Warframe with him. And this song is playing on my not “that playlist” playlist and seems an accurate song to finish this post with you.
I love you sugar
Strength of a Woman — Shaggy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mILsx_c-vXw
Adam says
“People have limits.
Your wife may be reaching hers.”
“Agreed. Adam, it’s probably time to take a break from analysing LO here and concentrate on building bridges.”
“Yes, I’m not sure how positive it is for your real relationship for you both to be on this forum, Adam.”
“There was a ton of underlying sadness in your wife’s post. Go to her.”
The vote seems unanimous. This very well maybe my last post. We talked last night and I responded to her. And here. But if she feels I need to leave this place I will. If so I will miss the friends I have made here in the months that I have been here. The lot of you I will never forget how much that you have done for me.
Dr. L thank you for your hard work and dedication to help those afflicted with limerence. God knows I might not even still have a wife if not for you and this community.
Dr L says
Good luck and godspeed to you both, Adam.
MJ says
Please know also Friend that should you choose to stay away, you have been an immense help to me and to others here that have come and gone. That is a gift from God.
I have appreciated how you have seemed to always “get” where I am coming from. You put into words very often, what I cannot.
For that and your friendship, I thank you..
Mila says
Adam, DmmitHardison, good luck for both of you, I wish you all the best!!
C for cat says
Adam, I’d be sorry to see you go and thank you for your kind words to me over the last couple of months, but it might help to take a break for a while. There is a point at which keeping talking about your LE is just fueling the fire. The blog is incredibly useful but it’s important, I think, to use it as a tool to help get out of an LE and not as a place to ruminate. Support yes, and goodness knows it’s been so helpful to me for that, but keeping talking about your LO and how amazing she is is just keeping her at the forefront of your mind.
Limerent Emeritus says
Damnit,
You’re the second “oil field brat” that I’ve encountered.
One of the enlisted guys under me in the Navy was one. He told similar stories. He said that his father worked when they needed money and when the fields were pumping.
I remember him telling me that he and I had really different ideas about money. He said that when I wanted a shovel, I’d pick one up for $2 at a garage sale. He said that when he wanted a shovel, he would go to the store and buy the most expensive shovel they had.
For him, the shovel was a symbol of his economic success.
Sammy says
““inside our minds, we sometimes conduct epic romances with our LOs, but they’re not necessarily conducting epic romances inside their minds with us – although they might be very good people. 😉“
Sammy, sometimes you hit the nail on the head with amazingly precise words!”
@Mila.
Thank you. I suspect this one sentence is probably one of the best sentences I’ve composed while thinking about limerence.
It’s strange how sometimes one’s thinking only becomes clearer after and/or during conversations with other people. I guess that’s the “social aspect” of learning? 😉
Mila says
@Sammy,
but it‘s not the only sentence that hits it just right. You write a lot that I personally cannot relate to maybe because our life situations are too different, but every now and then there comes a well articulated but honest and authentic insight that really goes „bam“ right into the center of truth:)
By the way, it’s astounding how much I had to scroll up for the reply button🙈
DmmitHardison says
To everyone that picked up the meaning of my post…. I don’t want him to leave here *if* it helps him.
There are newer people here so my backstory: I have Rapid Cycling Bipolar, PTSD, Anxiety none of which are a choice or can be put down like I was able to put down a Vodka bottle and remain sober for 4+ years, with no urge to drink again. Those issues can be managed and controlled by medications (some times) so I’m not going to be a hypocrite and say I can’t be a massive wench out of nowhere or that I don’t crawl inside myself to protect those around me …including myself. But I’m not going to Vegas or finding a slew of guys and then say “Well I was in a mania” it doesn’t, can’t and shouldn’t work that way, for me. I have extreme body image issues that go back to my pre-teens, that I never had therapy for until I was diagnosed with the BPD/PTSD/Anxiety, and those rear their ugliness still, I have surgical scars, I have accident scars but I also have the other kind (this is the reason for the tattoo/piercings comment) because I have those body image issues that rear up still.
I have empathy for anyone that has any kind of mental/psychological/brain misfire issue going on, whether it is something I understand or not, I fight stigmas everyday. I do not understand limerence in the way that others do, anymore than I would expect a person that’s never known a person with Bipolar to understand it (and this is an important thing, if someone does know 1 person with Bipolar, they know 1 person with it because it manifests differently in each person). I can get the science or research, but not the everyday of it, that is why I started …with Adam’s permission…. reading here and posted.
Here’s where it comes to a straight forward issue. . . he’s marinating in it, and I told him this earlier today. He says to me he’s working through it and I read his posts and it’s like he’s not working through it but keeping it fresh in mind. Please know, I get intrusive thoughts more on the scary side, so I can relate to others that have intrusive thoughts (scary or not scary). I’ve tried to help him find the ways to stop them, distraction by change of subject, change of location just little ways that I know have helped me and hoped he could adapt those into what works for him.
I have never and would never tell him what to do about anything, and I’m being serious (except when I forced him to the ER when his appendix ruptured and went gangrene or when I told him he had no choice in seeing the dr when he could’ve thrown clots and stroked out from untreated heart issues…. that’s life and death stuff though). He was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness… I was not (my immediate family had no specific denominational ties) but I always fully supported any decision he made in regards to it and still would, he never pressured me, I never pressured him.
I can’t and I won’t tell him to stop posting even though he asked me if he should stop. It’s not and can’t be my decision, I can certainly stop reading if that’s what he needs. but C for Cat summed it up with “The blog is incredibly useful but it’s important, I think, to use it as a tool to help get out of an LE and not as a place to ruminate. Support yes, and goodness knows it’s been so helpful to me for that, but keeping talking about your LO and how amazing she is is just keeping her at the forefront of your mind.” and in the last 3 or so months, I’ve seen him doing just that.
Thank you all for being here for him and understanding in him what I can’t quite grasp.
Sammy says
“…but it‘s not the only sentence that hits it just right. You write a lot that I personally cannot relate to maybe because our life situations are too different, but every now and then there comes a well articulated but honest and authentic insight that really goes „bam“ right into the center of truth:)”
@Mila.
Thank you for your kind words. I am happy if anyone finds something worthwhile in my contributions.
I do apologise to you in advance if some of my comments might not strike quite the right chord, either in terms of tone or content. Being sensitive to other people’s feelings isn’t really my strong suit. I am more of a teacher personality than a counsellor personality. 🤔
It’s very, very hard to say the right thing in the best of times. Then, of course, there’s the issue that a lot of people visiting LwL are in incredible pain/distress, and not really in the right frame of mind to enjoy jokes. I realise that not all of my remarks are as compassionate, or as worded as compassionately, as they could be.
All I can say is that I have experience limerence myself at least once in my life. It made me feel really, really down. I ended up being suicidally depressed. And I’ve spent a lot of time since trying to understand what could possibly make a good person feel so bad? It seems that limerence was the cause of my sadness, but the doctors I spoke to didn’t seem familiar with the concept of lovesickness. 😉
Am doing much better now, in case you’re wondering. 😛
Limerent Emeritus says
@Dammnit,
“Marinating” is a good way to describe it.
I’ve been on LwL ~5 years. My early posts are way different than my current posts. I’ve seen people come and go. I’d like to think that the people that left did so because they don’t need what LwL offers.
I find the dynamics of organizations really interesting. LwL has changed over the years. The early posters seemed more like-minded, less philosophically diverse, more focused on ending limerence, and more hard-edged. It was far less enabling. I miss the original Cadre.
People on LwL change over time. When Marcia first started posting, I don’t think she and I could agree that the sky is blue and grass is green. Now, we’re at least in the same hemisphere, maybe even the same quadrant on a lot of things.
It can be easy to get stuck here. LwL can provide the validation that can really help you understand the problem. That’s good but you still have to address the problem.
Right now, I see a lot of idling. To pilot any vessel requires propulsion and a rudder. You need both. Some people are rudderless and don’t know where to go. Some people know the right answer but are incapable or unwilling to do what it takes.
Getting past limerence is hard. The first step is wanting to do it.
Mila says
@Limerent Emeritus,
„Idling“ is exactly what I’m doing here at the moment, it’s true, and it’s also true that it is enabling.
It’s indulging in LE without the danger I would be in if I would write to LO instead, but still indulging.
I don’t count the times where I unload something that tortures me, simply because I cannot tell anybody else. That I allow myself to do. But that doesn’t happen that often.
Also I‘m interested in this transference question I asked Speedwagon in terms that it might give me some insight.
The rest is actually not really necessary for me to post and I bet doesn’t help anybody else apart from enabling them.
I should get a grip and find myself some more purposeful things to do to distract me from writing to LO.
Thanks for that (I know that you didn’t mean to put me or anyone down, you were observing, but you were absolutely right.)!
I will immediately stop reloading this page until at least tonight🙈and stop idling..
Snowphoenix says
@LE @Mila
I found that none-LE/LO topics, philosophy, literature, psychology in general, arts, FOO, actually help more efficiently transfer my mind to a broader world outside of the focused LE/LO, therefore reduce the intensity of limerence. To me, changing habitual mentality is the hardest; if remove addictive LE, something more purposeful need to fill the “void”. Then intellectual explorations and discusses of other aspects in life, particularly abstract or intangible ones, could serve such a demanding goal to certain extend, much better than “brainlessly” punching a sand bag.
@Mila
I am still on the same boat with you here: in order NOT to dwell on unavailable LO and the nostalgia of the recent past, I come here rambling about other topics as a temporary transference — much better than drinking excessively or daydreaming on a coach or mindlessly watching Netflix (I could not even focus on interesting movies). Sometimes LE is taking up our entire brain, more powerful than all other mental works combined, Those blood neurochemicals!
When seeing some good or complex views from others in LwL, my mind immediately begins to ramble and ponder over what’s my view on those points? Never thought about or challenged, my stands are always vague. Then my curiosity takes over LE, thinking and ruminating over my stands and how I could respond in logical ways. Thus, LE and LO are naturally pushed into distance from 1-24 hours although they still flash in and out with much quiet presence. Unknown or unexamined topics often draw my curiosity and enquirers, which can be very effective to help us limerent come out of narrow LE sphere.
There are times I felt it’s wasting time to chitchat here, since they go nowhere. However, watching my mind closely and looking from different angle, it has helped me clear my muddled mind on so many areas in my life, and reduced greatly the intensity of my ongoing limerence — it just can NOT be killed in one GO, perhaps 1 year or longer? Now I know for sure that combining workout, mediation, superficial socializing, and increasing knowledge about LE/LO alone, is still NOT enough to get out my LE.
So I take it easier nowadays to “waste time” to post here, treating it as a walk-in therapy for my LE — an online Rehab with DrL as a ghost-director and guidance, us invisible ghost-limerents as our own therapists — no one else could do the work for us in reality anyway. Learning and discovering more about my “oddball” Self, I know for sure I do not need a professional shrink at this point; I have had a long “tastes” of them, who could possibly “help” some others. One Ph.D psychoanalysis specializing in cptsd, Asperger, generational and cultural traumas worsened my wounds by having reenacted my childhood traumas with my narc mom. 😱
In addition, I get to practice my written English along the way. What medium could be better? — I need to edit my post 2-4 times depending on content. 🤔
Serial Limerent says
@Limerent Emeritus
I saw this phenomenon years ago while haunting forums and blogs on narcissism. They’re supposed to help you heal from whatever narcissist hurt you, then you move on. But many people would stay stuck instead, still there years later, ruminating until they became narcissistic themselves. Eventually you have to grab hold of your mind and force it to think about other things.
IMHO says
Gosh! So much going on at LwL last couple of days I’ve been away. I was at a well-being event and actually good to see loads of new people, new perspectives and get out of one’s own head ( @Sammy will be proud) Im trying to stop reading so much here, despite the intelligent conversation, support and kindness. I think I may be somewhat obsessive (OCD?) , as refreshing LWL comments has become a new habit on top of checking my LOs online status and some other habits/dependencies which are actually probably more serious. Wake up call to self !
@LE is a total legend, dare I say veteran on LwL whose observations are valuable. We all view and use LwL differently but it can be a potential echo chamber. It’s easy to see why, it’s a revelation to find limerence is a thing, (not just ‘you’ being a crazy mad person) and we are part of an unknown tribe. But after that initial revelation it’s best to seek – as well as LwL – a broader source of knowledge, insights and support.
@Adam. If you read this. When we first connected we did converse on whether continuing here was good for you and if other groups/forums may be good for you at this stage of your LE, to let go. Here was your reply :- https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-four-phases-of-no-contact/#comment-43561
I wish you the best if you do choose to move on, as we will all surely do so at some point. Thank you for the openness and kindness, especially for the LwL newbies. Heartfelt best wishes
Limerent Emeritus says
@Serial Limerent
” But many people would stay stuck instead, still there years later, ruminating until they became narcissistic themselves.”
Yep.
I saw something similar on LO #4’s site. I was a moderator for her for 2-3 years or so. After awhile, you could see who was going to be just fine, who could go either way, and who was probably going to be in the wilderness forever.
Life is one big triage system. Some people will thrive no matter what you do to them. Some people will fail no matter what you do for them. But, for the vast majority of people, how they turn out is in some way proportional to what goes into them. For some people, a little input yields an exponential return. For some people, a lot of input yields a fractional return. Everybody’s different.
It’s long past time I should be gone but I like it here. At this point, I don’t think I’m going to learn anything new. Things are pretty good ATM and nothing about the LOs is going to make my life better. DrL isn’t breaking a lot of new ground, he’s refining a lot of early material. The blogs are more nuanced. I saw that with LO #4, too.
It’s been over a year and a half since my last social media drive by. I’m not same person I was over a decade ago when I started my last LE. It’s not that I don’t think about them anymore, it’s just that they have no place in my life. My latest rumination theme about LO #2 is looking back at all the times I should have walked and didn’t. In retrospect, I had plenty of warnings and should have believed my indications. But, I didn’t. The EAP counselor said that for a smart guy, I was a very slow learner.
But, I eventually learned.
The question, “What would you do with that knowledge if you had it?” isn’t a a mantra anymore, it’s a way of life.
Nisor says
C for cat,
That’s what’s called peer pressure in schools. If you don’t mingle with rules breakers you’re considered a nerd. Thanks God I didn’t have to deal with peer pressure at any stage in my life.
How are you doing these days? 💪🏽
Lost in Space says
Hi everyone! As promised I’m back from my 40 day self-imposed break from LwL to give an update. Just want to say that everything’s perfect now, LO moved away, we agreed to NC, I’m over her already, my limerence is cured forever…
Oh if only it was that simple 🤣
In reality, I am glad that I stepped away from actively participating in this group, as like I’d said before, it had become an obsession of its own for me. I seem to form obsessions so easily… but I do feel like stepping away gave me back more of my time each day and probably has turned down the intensity of my limerence to some extent just because I haven’t been reading and writing about it constantly.
Regarding my actual situation with LO… she pretty much cut off contact with me for most of July and early August, just out of the blue after being really warm and friendly with me for all of June. I finally pressed her for an explanation, and she revealed that she’d had a couple big fights with her SO about his prior infidelity and that naturally got her feeling really bad about talking with me so she decided to cut contact again. And of course that makes perfect sense, so again I agreed to respect LC until she left the workplace. Then a week later, she got all warm and friendly with me again, and for the last couple of weeks we been talking all the time (including several deep, emotionally intimate, hours-long conversations), and the relationship feels as warm and emotionally close as it ever has. She gave me the warmest hug ever last week – the kind of hug that let me know completely that she loves me, trusts me and feels safe with me. Strangely it didn’t leave me craving more – it was just so satisfying that a week later I still don’t really have any anxiety about our relationship despite all the uncertainty.
I was thinking about how confused I’ve been by all of her hot/cold behavior, but then I realized it’s really not confusing at all – she’s just struggling with the same feelings I am, she wants to be appropriate and do the right thing, she has the added context of being the aggrieved spouse in her SO’s infidelity recently, but she also just really craves closeness with me like I do with her – so she clearly has an internal struggle just like I do and it presents itself as all of this hot and cold behavior. It’s really not nearly as confusing or mysterious as I keep making it out to be – it actually makes complete sense, and realizing that does make it somewhat easier to deal with.
The other thing that’s still up in the air is her future in our workplace. She had actually set a quit date in mid September, submitted her resignation to her supervisor, notified her coworkers that she was leaving. And immediately afterward she changed her mind and started trying to find a way to stay after all – now she’s withdrawn her resignation and is trying to work with HR to modify her schedule in a way that’ll let her keep working here part time for the next 2 years while she’s in school – but it’s still up in the air whether they’ll agree to accommodate her or not.
So… at this point we’re back in a warm cycle in our relationship, which based on our last year of history I know will turn back into a cold cycle sometime soon, and it’s like 50/50 if she’ll be leaving in a couple of weeks or if she’ll be staying for at least a couple more years. Strangely I feel pretty calm about everything right now… I kind of have a “whatever happens happens” feeling. Either she’ll leave in 2 weeks, it’ll hurt a lot, but then I’ll get my sanity back long term. Or she’ll stay, we’ll avoid the pain of having to say goodbye, but we’ll have to navigate an ongoing relationship for years to come. Either way, it’s not up to me, so I’m trying not to worry about it or future-trip too much.
My relationship with SO is going really well – we’re continuing to get along great, we feel emotionally close and connected, and I feel so much love and affection for her. We text each other all day, have great conversations at night, share lots of cuddles and physical intimacy, have weekly date nights…. There’s really nothing lacking in our relationship at this point, and my ongoing relationship with LO is all about my bond with her, not about anything missing with SO. It continues to amaze me how much love I can genuinely feel for two people at the same time.
My relationship with myself… still a work in progress. I still feel a restlessness and a feeling of missing something that I can’t put my finger on, but those feelings aren’t too strong at this time. I’m feeling plenty engaged in my work and my family and feel relatively purposeful in my day to day life.
Anyway, I could have more to write, but my plane’s about to take off. I do want to say that I’ve been skimming the posts here intermittently over the past month and keeping up with everyone’s stories, and I do miss you all! I’m planning to engage periodically over the next few days while I’m on my little work trip, so it’ll be good to catch up with any old friends who wants to chat!
Limerent Emeritus says
Welcome back, LIS!
“I was thinking about how confused I’ve been by all of her hot/cold behavior, but then I realized it’s really not confusing at all – she’s just struggling with the same feelings I am, she wants to be appropriate and do the right thing, she has the added context of being the aggrieved spouse in her SO’s infidelity recently, but she also just really craves closeness with me like I do with her – so she clearly has an internal struggle just like I do and it presents itself as all of this hot and cold behavior. It’s really not nearly as confusing or mysterious as I keep making it out to be – it actually makes complete sense, and realizing that does make it somewhat easier to deal with.”
The aggrieved infidelity partner is a killer. When the therapist asked how I’d feel about cutting LO #4 off, I told her I’d feel like a schmuck for turning my back on her when she was reaching out to me. The therapist said, “There’s the guilt.” [out of Fear, Obligation, Guilt, and Shame]
It also doesn’t help when your LO is trying to do the right thing. It doesn’t make you think less of them, it endears them more to you. It’s worse when the right thing isn’t blatantly obvious.
Lost in Space says
Yeah, she’s an absolute sweetheart whose life has been a long series of traumas and betrayals by everyone important to her. To the best of my knowledge, I’m the only person in the world she feels comfortable talking with about her struggles. Makes it pretty hard to just walk away from her… That’s probably one of the two main reasons I want to find a way to keep our relationship alive without letting it get out of hand (the other being the good feelings I get when she shines her warmth on me).
Limerent Emeritus says
Yeah,
I told LO #4 that I never wanted to be on the list of people who betrayed her, hurt her, or let her down.
The way things ended, I may not be near the top of the list but I’m pretty sure that I’m on it.
Queue up “You Always Hurt The One You Love.”
frederico says
L.I.S.
With this message, I am breaking my resolve to ease up, or to stop posting altogether, on this site. I feel that I’ve moved on, to a degree, although I carefully followed your earlier posts and some of them were quite jaw-dropping.
This is my honest impression about what you have said today.
“It continues to amaze me how much love I can genuinely feel for two people at the same time.”
I don’t believe this is tenable, especially in a limerent situation, and I feel that you still seem to be wanting to have your cake and eat it. Limerence is not a game, it’s often a painful experience.
Overall, I think that, somehow, you are deluding yourself.
I do not have the benefit, or the complication, of a SO. For my own situation, I am trying to be realistic, although of course it’s tough. That’s maybe why I get grumpy.
I sincerely wish you every happiness together with an end to the torment. No offence was intended. This was a rather tricky message to express.
All best,
f
Bridgelover says
Hi, LIS. Thank you again for helping me 40 days ago. I hope you are able to love and connect with your SO as much as she wants.
Speedwagon says
Hey LIS, I’m glad you had a good 40 days in the basement. Glad to see you back here and hear an update. Sounds like you are finding some peace but also still in the midst of an uncertain emotional affair. In some ways I am rooting for your LO to quit and you can move on to post LO life. But it must also be nice to be loved so intensely by someone.
My relationship with LO has basically devolved to work/project interaction only. Mostly my own doing as I have found that strict LC, where I disengage from LO personally, keeps me in the best emotional state. For the most part I only interact with LO now on a work level and keep away from even the most superficial personal chit chat. It’s fairly easy because my LO, unlike your LO, seems completely indifferent to me and also has never been an initiator with me ever. So, I just need not initiate myself and all seems to stay status quo.
There has been a few things said here lately that resonate with me. One, as limerents we seek the same intensity of emotion from LO that we have for them and that is very true of me. It’s an all or nothing game for me and since I can’t have all, I choose nothing. Also, our LOs are illuminated in Technicolor while everyone else is washed in grey. Again, true for me and so I do what I can to mute the intense desire for LO by disengaging.
At this point I’m exhausted, just doing the best I can to manage the coexistence with her, and hoping that someday, by the grace of God, she steps out of my life. I think it’s sad to feel like this, to have LE ruin even a basic friendship but for my own well being this is what it has to be.
Sammy says
“There has been a few things said here lately that resonate with me. One, as limerents we seek the same intensity of emotion from LO that we have for them and that is very true of me. It’s an all or nothing game for me and since I can’t have all, I choose nothing. Also, our LOs are illuminated in Technicolor while everyone else is washed in grey. Again, true for me and so I do what I can to mute the intense desire for LO by disengaging.”
@Speedwagon.
I quite like this paragraph. Seems to sum the limerent state up pretty well… 😜
MJ says
Hey LiS,
Welcome back. The place hasn’t been the same without you. Miss your lively banter and pleasant demeanor.
Looks like your LE is kinda neither good nor bad. But you seem to have a healthy outlook, so good for you.
If you’ve been following my story, not too much has changed. LO still primarily works next door these days but has been making appearances in our warehouse over here from time time. Usually she is too busy or with friends or I am in the wrong place at the wrong time, so there’s really been no progress. She doesn’t seem all that interested anymore, yet I’ll catch her looking my way if I’m around. Whatever that means. Her hours are odd over there now and it looks like she’s only working half days, but I can’t confirm that either.
I’ve made a 2nd attempt to get into therapy and now have been rejected a 2nd time due to this limerence that seems to stupify them. I don’t know if it’s just my ignorance or theirs or maybe it’s my bad attitude about feeling like I need help over it. But they tell me I’m not the right fit. That I probably need therapy that’s a little more comprehensive. It’s horse$#!+!! They just don’t know a damn thing about limerence and don’t want to fake it like they do. I truthfully don’t want to go through the aggravation of telling my story again. I’ll feel like I’ll have to fib a story just to get in, but really I’m just skeptical about the whole therapy idea anyway. It’s not like I want to kill this LO obsession. My options haven’t really improved, so it’s all I’ve got. I don’t know if paying somebody to tell me stuff I think I already know or suggest things I don’t really want to do will actually help me. I’m already bitter about so much anyway. I feel almost like it could set me back.. Limerence is just terrible. I wish the whole thing had never happened. I’d be so much better off.
Anyway, enough of my downer story. Go do your trip thing and check back in later if you feel like replying. Not sure when I’ll get back to you but I will at some point.
Sammy says
“I’m already bitter about so much anyway. I feel almost like it could set me back.. Limerence is just terrible. I wish the whole thing had never happened. I’d be so much better off.”
@MJ.
I think I might know where you’re coming from emotionally. Limerence is terrible in the sense of fixation, sadness, wanting to be alone, not enjoying life as one used to, outbursts of anger, stress, constant anxiety, etc. The apparently involuntary nature of the mood swings can make one feel pretty lousy too due to frequent bad moods and inability to predict bad moods.
Limerence can be beautiful too if it motivates people (who can be together) to pair-bond and reproduce. That’s probably the ideal evolutionary outcome, but many people don’t end up with said ideal outcome. 🤔
I think the important thing to remember is that limerence is a PART of life, but it’s not the WHOLE of life. Most people weren’t in an altered state prior to LE and one day they’ll return to an ordinary state. Limerence should probably be seen as a temporary period of great upheaval in one’s life.
I found something that helped me moved on is to identify and let go of any lingering feelings of resentment (toward anyone in life, not necessarily LO). Resentment creates emotional blockages it would seem. Resentment can make it hard to let go of a person or of an imaginary relationship – even if that person hasn’t done anything wrong. I think I felt resentment toward my father for (perceived) rejection of me when I was young. Also, resentment toward my mother for maybe relying on me too much.
My parents had a very unhappy marriage. Sometimes, I wonder whether one-sided limerence played a part in this unhappiness? I think, biologically speaking, men and women are destined to desire each other, and that’s fine. But desire seems to come packaged with misunderstanding.
I wonder if the thing that makes men and women desire each other so much is also the thing that makes men and women misunderstand each other so much, and struggle to live in harmony? Perhaps attraction really does lie in the mystery of the desired other? If the other stops being mysterious, then desire for the other often disappears too. 🤔
Limerence has helped me be less judgemental toward my parents regarding their marital struggles, because I realise that so much of the “dance” between men and women is beyond my understanding – not to mention the understanding of the parties doing the actual dance!! 😉
Snowphoenix says
“I think, biologically speaking, men and women are destined to desire each other… “
I need to make a MANTRA out of this statement!
My Culture of Origin (COO) has made this biological desire for pair bonding immoral and evil, which demoralized or even criminalized my inner self all my life. Even when both sides were available, I could not and did not verbalize my affections to the other side; “I love you” in my original tongue would make my whole body cringe and my stomach literally churning…
Now, can you image how I have felt during LE, secretly desiring for an unavailable LO w/ SO? — I became the “devil” myself possessed by god-knows-what?
Now, I become more relaxed, which enables me to stop shaming and berating my normal self, in or out of limerence. I am actually feeling good that I am a limerent, capable of deep love! (Just don’t slip into that limerence)
Sammy says
“My Culture of Origin (COO) has made this biological desire for pair bonding immoral and evil, which demoralized or even criminalized my inner self all my life. Even when both sides were available, I could not and did not verbalize my affections to the other side; “I love you” in my original tongue would make my whole body cringe and my stomach literally churning…”
@Snowphoenix.
It’s interesting how some very conservative cultures do try to create barriers between men and women, through religion, social customs, etc. It’s interesting how some cultures DO place all sorts of taboos around sexuality/romantic attraction.
My first thoughts … the biological drive for men and women to be together must be SO STRONG that the biological drive frequently overrides cultural barriers.
Let’s put it another way. If the natural drive for men and women to be together was weak, then strong cultural barriers wouldn’t be necessary to stop men and women from getting together. Strong barriers are only necessary if there’s strong intrinsic desire.
Culture and biology don’t work hand-in-hand. Culture is often an attempt to contain biology, subdue biology, redirect biology. And sometimes this cultural interference is appropriate and justified and sometimes this cultural interference may be too heavy-handed. 😉
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
“It’s interesting how some cultures DO place all sorts of taboos around sexuality/romantic attraction.”
To this day, I am unable to talk with any WOMEN (just forget men in this arena) from my COO about normal hormones, sexuality, or strong romantic attraction. If I mention a few words, they looked at me with a facial blush and just giggled. I was so inhabited that I could not even talk with exSO (LO #4)and xLOs (#5, #6) about those issues, even when problems surfaced. I was silently frustrated, suffered and endured.
“My first thoughts … the biological drive for men and women to be together must be SO STRONG that the biological drive frequently overrides cultural barriers.”
We were raised by COO since birth to accept such a desire as “immoral” or “dirty”. As a fearful kid with cptsd (I passed out at 6ish yrs, w/ 3 other girls, right before a molestation possibly took place (by a neighborhood young man with “the look” — still crystal clear in my mind) and lost all my memory of the incident— still don’t know what happened or how I got home), how could I ever view such a desire in any other positive or healthy way? During my teens, I covered my face with a scarf in the streets so as to avoid that frightening “look” from strangers — I always thought something wrong with me and never felt at ease with myself, except with books. Other girls talked about dress, I questioned about Nietzsche’s aphorism.
“Culture and biology don’t work hand-in-hand. Culture is often an attempt to contain biology, subdue biology, redirect biology. And sometimes this cultural interference is appropriate and justified and sometimes this cultural interference may be too heavy-handed. “
It seems to me, outside of the relatively “free” West, this cultural interference is still too “heavy-handed” on people’s mentality in so many cultures. DrL’s articles, particularly through neuroscience lens, helped me understand human biology and greatly liberate my old thinking.
We can never underestimate power of brainwash (eg. ISIS). That’s why DrL suggests mental reprogramming as an important method to help cure LE, without a strong mind guiding our thinking and behaving, limerence or any other types of addiction would never go away.
As the cliche goes: there is a wish, there is way.
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy,
It just dawned to me that the aforementioned (learned from your passage) trauma was the unconscious reason why my glimmer ALWAYS took the priority to LO’s. If a guy glimmered at me first, he lost a chance for good to be my LO! I did not consciously choose to be this way, my traumatized mind automatically directed such a genomic, protective, neurological impulse.
Looking back, I could affirm: LO #1, 2, 4, 7 are quite “safe” to glimmer at and chase after. They share a similar aura….
LwL has help me understand humanity with its infinite colorful hues that now I think I can forgive even a murder among us limerent—ghosts. 👻
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
It sounds like your culture of origin has heavily shaped your experience of limerence. In light of this fact, I’ll try to word my responses to you very respectfully. I don’t want to give offence on cultural grounds. Also, incidentally, as a general rule, I try to approach limerence from a scientific perspective. Science is my general guide in life, although I do sometimes go off-track into philosophy or pop culture, so bear with me when I lose focus… 😉
I grew up in the supposedly liberated West. But I didn’t have a normal upbringing by any means. I was raised Christian. I had a very strong, very dominant mother who was quite controlling. The family environment I grew up in was very sheltered and cut off from other families. So, to some extent, I understand what it’s like to grow up in a very traditional, very conservative, very prudish culture. Even Anglo-Saxons can grow up in puritanical settings.
Regarding your experiences with potentially predatory males growing up, I’m very sorry you had to endure that. I feel that my understanding of human males is far too optimistic/forgiving/generous at times, because I didn’t come into contact with any truly awful males growing up. My father was very gentle/reserved. I guess social isolation does have its benefits? 🤔
But, yes, male sexuality (as a purely biological drive not subject to societal restraints) does have a problematic side: a dark and aggressive element. And I think, from a safety perspective, females and especially younger females need to aware that male sexuality can have this dark and aggressive aspect. Sadly, traditional societies often excuse bad behaviour from males but not bad behaviour from females, so there is very much a double standard in play. 🤔
My sisters, despite growing up in the “free” West, still have struggled all their lives to feel comfortable around straight males. So being “uncomfortable around men” isn’t necessarily an issue only affecting females in traditional societies/non-Western countries. A healthy sense of mistrust around men can be a good thing for girls/women not yet comfortable navigating the gendered world.
Any “brainwashing” I received around sexuality probably came from inside the family home. My mother, bless her, gave me a book on male puberty to read when I reached the appropriate age. However, my mother, being the delightfully odd woman that she is, decided to glue together all the pages containing any information regarding sex/sexuality. So all I learnt about male puberty was … diet and exercise. I don’t know why my mother gave me a book on male puberty if she didn’t want me to learn anything useful!! 😆
I think, on a subconscious level, maybe my mother didn’t want me to grow up to be a “normal male” because she had had so many bad experiences with “normal males” herself. But not letting a child develop psychologically into full adulthood (out of love or out of fear of possible consequences) can create serious adjustment problems for said child when said child becomes a chronological adult. Mothers do have to let their sons become men … eventually. 😉
“To this day, I am unable to talk with any WOMEN (just forget men in this arena) from my COO about normal hormones, sexuality, or strong romantic attraction. If I mention a few words, they looked at me with a facial blush and just giggled.”
I tried to talk to straight male peers about sexuality when I was in my early 20s. That didn’t go down very well. The males in my (Western) culture turned out to be as shy as the females, and perhaps even more prudish. I mostly got the same responses of deep embarrassment and/or amusement that you did. So I think embarrassment around sexuality is a universal human phenomenon, and not something peculiar to a particular sex or background. 🤔
There can be a big disparity between a country’s “official culture” (i.e. free and easy) and how people in that culture actually act. In other words, when you see Westerners living hedonistic lifestyles on TV , please don’t assume you’re missing out. Most Westerners aren’t really doing all the things that characters on TV are doing!! 😉
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
Another interesting point about limerence that you may observe in yourself – limerence appears to speed up one’s mental processes. So one might end up with racing thoughts, long lists of questions about life, etc, and wonder why everybody else’s brain isn’t operating in identical fashion…
For example, when one asks friends questions, and friends don’t have the same questions, or can’t answer questions asked, one might assume one’s friends are slow-witted or uncaring. But this isn’t really the case. Limerence is almost a form of mania.
Limerence = amount/rate of activity in brain greatly increased.
Moral of the story: be patient with friends who aren’t on the same wavelength or who can’t provide the answers to questions you may ask. Such friends are probably not going through limerence. 😉
Snowphoenix says
@sammy
After divorce, I tried a few months of “Westerners living hedonistic lifestyles on TV,” it was so boring, meaningless, even disgusting. So I stayed in most of the time. Solitude is not my issue, books are more fun to be with —I rarely felt being left out but “rich and full” at their companies.
Yes, the mental activities and creativity are amazingly high during limerence, making me believe LE is beneficial thing — if I cannot be with LO, at least my mind is flying all over the universe , “producing” something new. Naturally I want to hold onto that “inspiration” for some realistic productivity. But the mind is often hijacked with intrusive thoughts about LO, even just a still, blurry icon.
My mind has been slowing down, not sure it’s due to the “dopamine low” (LO is back in scene, twice or less a week, and felt like a courteous Martian again) or I’m slowly leaving limerence. A refrigerator buzz depression is kicking in….
I’m closely watching my mind with so much newly gained LE knowledge… and trying more meditation and seeing other friends.
Bridgelover says
Everything in “How Indecision Worsens Limerence” resonates with me. I do need more courage. I do need more decisiveness. I do need to live more purposefully. Or else I need to accept that I can stay safe in my comfort zone and remain alone while being slowly driven crazy by the inside of my mind.
Speedwagon says
I had to make a very purposeful decision today. Next week I have an out of office project meeting that I am setting up. LO is working on the project. I could easily take LO to this meeting, spend half a day with her alone, grab lunch with her. A sort of day date. It would be well within normal business operations and quite honestly, LO would want to go. Any of my other employees, I would take them without hesitation.
Alas, I opted to schedule the meeting on LOs day off (She is part time). I just can’t spend that time with her and come out of it unscathed. It will send me into a multi day malaise. I hate that I have to treat her different, but I just do for my personal sanity. LO won’t be the wiser about it, meetings happen all the time where I go alone and don’t bring an employee. But I feel bad about it. In the game of limerence no one wins.
IMHO says
@speedwagon
Congratulations on continuing to “fight the good fight” !! You are strong and purposeful and doing the right thing for you and your well-being AND not compromising your work ethics and processes . a full-on WIN all round. Be Proud !! If you struggle just think subconsciously that you can take her next time,to trick you into feeling better, although you are likely to make the same strong decision not to.
You are stronger than me right now for sure. I’m due to be in my LOs country soon. I’ve not arranged anything with him at all, despite knowing my schedule , I’m too scared to propose a day/time. He knows I will be over too so if I don’t arrange something it would be seen as hurtful by him(to not have a coffee at least). The reality is it may be the last time I see him F2F. Every time we are F2F could be the last time. ( rocket fuel for limerence!!) I really want to see him of course but it’s always so very intense on both sides. I’m worried on a major scale, what to wear, what to say, I want to just pretend I cannot travel because Im ill or something….
Speedwagon says
“If you struggle just think subconsciously that you can take her next time,to trick you into feeling better, although you are likely to make the same strong decision not to.”
This is great advice because yes, I am struggling with this.
ABCD says
@IMHO.
Hope your upcoming meeting goes well, keep us posted.
Mila says
IMHO, I wrote something to you in a post to ABCD further down which is really stupid and now I‘m confused, maybe you can find it… sorry to ABCD and you..
ABCD says
@Speedwagon.
Great job, you made the right decision, even though it may not feel like that at present. Perhaps later you will be able to reach a stage where you can have more controlled LO interactions, but till that time, it’s better to pull back. These are my 2 cents.
Mila says
Speedwagon, I am in a similar situation of doing the right thing against the limerence, but feeling bad about it.
Cannot say more, only sending understanding thoughts… don’t know why it feels so wrong when it should feel right.
Nisor says
Mila, Speedwagon
On doing the right thing…
Congratulations to both of you for standing 💪🏽 strong in your purpose to squash limerence.
These little sacrifices sometimes feels like we’re punishing ourselves from some kind of reward we somehow deserve.
It’s tough alright! For each “sacrifice” you make , try to reward yourselves with a little something like a dinner outside with So or a friend, or buy something nice you’d like to have. It will feel good , it’s like taking points for good behavior…
Best wishes to all.
Mila says
@Nisor, I ate a lot of chocolate right now in some attempt to get a good feeling, does that count?😆thank you for the kind words.
MJ says
@Speed,
I give you credit friend. You are pretty resolute in your effort to keep LO at arms length. Then again, you still have an intact family and a Wife you love. I’m jealous of both, but in a friendly way. I’d love to be in your position. I know LO aggravates so much of your psych, but at least you have a level of friendship. Even if it is only professional.
Keep doing you. Your prayers may just get answered at some point.
ABCD says
@Bridgelover
I can speak from experience that courage, decisiveness, and purposeful living pays off in the long run, even though it may seem super difficult to do now. You will slowly but surely begin to feel better. Do not let the occasional setback derail you. It’s fine if you take two steps forward followed by one step backward. Also celebrate your little milestones, they give you confidence. Wishing you the best.
Bridgelover says
He’s a good person but he’s not any better than I am, or anyone else I know. But when he ignores me my stomach hurts, and when he smiles at me it’s like getting a shot of morphine. I can’t 100% avoid him, but it’s interesting making detached observations.
Mila says
I have to unload something unrelated again, sorry.
I try to keep my friendship with LO and kill the limerence, but every time I do the „right“ thing , (which means in this case going little steps toward erasing all the slightly-more-than-friendship-stuff) it hurts inside as if I kill something living inside me.
Today for example I invited my SO to some event where my LO is without his SO. I didn’t have to do that, (SO doesn’t care too much to be there), but it was the right thing to do. But all I feel is disappointment not to have special time with LO, and this pain I described.
I don’t like that, it’s a dying feeling, doesn’t feel like something healthy and life-affirming, even if it should.
ABCD says
@Mila.
Can totally understand what you are going through. You made the right call by inviting SO to the event, though it may seem like you missed a chance to spend time with LO. In the long run, you may need to take steps to pull back from LO, trust me, that is the only thing that will work. It will feel super lousy now, but it will get better for sure, hang in there. And also, do not get derailed by the occasional setback, focus on the overall goal. There is a need to take it one day at a time. Hope this helps.
Mila says
Thanks ABCD!
The thing is that he is my good friend for years, even the best male friend I have, and the limerence came when it was clear that he will leave my workplace. In fact he left already now and opportunities to see him get rare. the difficulty is that I really want to keep him as my good friend, not go NC. It would be a loss that wouldn’t do me any good. I just want to kill the limerence, not the friendship, and only take as many steps back as are needed for that.
But it feels bad..
I feel with you on meeting LO. Do you want to go NC long term or is it like with my case? I only ask because you could just not meet him. But if you know you have to meet him, maybe just stop dithering and prepare on meeting mentally, you could have a plan how you want to „see“ this meeting- stop worrying what to wear, how he will see you, but for example decide to look at him really neutrally and see all his human flaws and maybe bad sides and if this person you built up in your mind is really worth all that trouble and anxiety?
Or some other helpful mindset that you could adopt.
Mila says
O my god, now I mixed you up with
IMHO. Sorry!!!
I take it back and just say thank you 🙏🏻 and only the first paragraph is for you, I’m so stupid…
ABCD says
@ Mila.
No problem! Thanks for your message. In an ideal scenario, it would be great for you to be on friendly terms with LO, without any of the LE intensity. I guess there are other posts on LwL where the posted question is – “can one really be friends with LO”. There are examples of LwL members whose LO interactions are no longer of the high intensity that they were, I wish the same for you.
Mila says
@ABCD, thank you for your support.
I know that this is what I should wish for too. It just feels bad.
I have the feeling that he realizes what I‘m doing- pulling back- but not why, and that he‘s a bit hurt. That hurts me…but of course I cannot explain it because that would mean to disclose and a step in the wrong direction.
Nisor says
Hi, Mila
What a hard situation you find yourself in! I know you want to keep lo as a friend. And that would be nice if you can control your feelings when around him… it will depend on how strong your feelings are for him.
You say you have the feeling he realizes what you’re doing- pulling back but doesn’t know why.
Question: what if he asks you why, what would you answer? Be prepared.
Wishing the best results and peace in your mind.
Nisor says
Mila,
Eating chocolates counts for reward for ‘good behavior ‘. Just don’t overdue it , we don’t want to gain some weight. ha.
Have a wonderful and peaceful weekend.💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽
Mila says
@Nisor, actually, jokes aside, somehow my addictions are related. When I get stressed about LE (or anything else really), I resort to sugar. Luckily I don’t but on much weight through that, but it’s still very unhealthy.
I feel that it I’m prone to addiction, be it persons or sweets. Even sense that I could drink too much, but since I know that, I keep my drinking to a minimum.
Mila says
„Question: what if he asks you why, what would you answer?“
Hm. Actually I kind of tried a conversation of that sort (by text), about if he thinks we are on dangerous grounds here, but he answered very vague, beginning with „what am I supposed to say to that?” . I felt he didn’t want to talk about it and just leave it all as it is.
The thing is, if he would ask directly, I would probably answer truly. But he won’t ask. He either doesn’t want to think about it too much because things are perfect for him right now, or, I don’t know.
If someone feels the urge to talk business, it’s definitely me, not him…
Nisor says
Mila,
“What am I supposed to say to that?” . That’s really a vague answer from
lo. He doesn’t want to risk letting you know how he feels. It stinks. I hate answers like that, it’s like they don’t want to see the truth, they
don’t want to confront their feelings for you. nor have a conversation about it. It leaves one hanging in the air. And one asks oneself: do they really care? That’s uncertainty, it fuels the limerence to a new high. I guess one has to learn how to live with uncertainty, go NC and withdraw with dignity and self respect. I’m sorry you have to go through that, ouch!
Stay firm with your decision and hope everything turns out the way you want is best for both of you. ❤️
IMHO says
Hi Mila, no problem. maybe ABCD and I are the same person with split personalities… ha ha !!!
We aren’t, but we both chose acronyms for our namesakes here. I actually wish I chose to use a name in hindsight as it’s more friendly /personable.
Anyway, thank you so much for your reply. I desperately want to remain friends with my LO, like you. I would forgo any other thrills /excitements to ensure he remains in my life. I may be deluded. It probably will fizz out anyway. It typically does when you are not living nearby or have a true reason to stay connected. I also do wonder can you really be true friends with someone of the opposite sex if you both have SOs ( who they do not know about our ‘friendship’). I know it and feel it. That is why I’m so ostrich-like in my pending meeting as it’s on his home ground. He may even invite me to meet him and his SO!! That maybe my ultimate wake up call. OMG!! Not sure how you are able to cope with your LO and SO at the same event, I would be in meltdown !
Maybe your LO intuitively knows you are directionally doing the right thing for the greater good ? You are strong and probably less guilt/regrets than me right now – so please be proud of yourself !
Nisor says
Hi IHMO
OMG you problem is even bigger than Milas with SOs! Both are difficult ones. How do you intend to handle yours? Have you any ideas yet? Go to the mirror and do some practicing of various possibilities. Think of things you want to talk about as referral points. Have a script even if you later forget it… try to have control over the conversation with lo. Think, think , you just be yourself! Calm
and collected, all smiles. It is said that smiles disarm the other person.It’s just another human being like you, not a Martian.
Best wishes to you.
Mila says
@IMHO, Nisor
„Not sure how you are able to cope with your LO and SO at the same event, I would be in meltdown !“
Well, I didn’t enjoy the evening one bit although I should have because we are all friends and it was a nice occasion.
I know LO and his SO for years, we are all friends more or less.
Which makes everything more complicated and harder.
His SO wasn’t there but mine, and somehow that was harder for me than when his SO is there, because I feel conflicting feelings/desires/obligations.
I haven’t seen LO for weeks and thought maybe it’s a good thing to see him with my SO, maybe the glimmer is gone (he glimmered a bit at the beginning of our friendship, but back then I was in another LE🙄, but we were friends without LE for years!), but when I saw him I immediately knew that the glimmer is still there, much worse, that the newfound physical attraction ist still going strong.
So I was unhappy the whole time and am still unhappy.
I don’t know how he felt. I feel that he has some kind of limerence or sth related for me, but he doesn’t seem to have the strong desires that I have and doesn’t seem to mind the SO-Problem, doesn’t seem to feel that there could be something wrong or hurtful for them. Probably because he would never cross some lines?
We wrote yesterday when we were home and now all traces of special are gone- cannot explain it without details, sorry. Seems that he is either determined now to keep it „normal“ or that he thinks I want it that way because I brought SO.
He even wrote now again.
My feeling yesterday was that I cannot handle this. I have to get out of that yearning feeling.
It would be easier to go nothing or everything, but this manoeuvering and trying to be friends and intimate but not too much, yesterday it just overwhelmed me.
But I have to be able to do it, I just have to!
IMHO, will answer to you separately because the post is already so long…
Yesterday I was determined to put a stop to it, to concentrate on living purposefully etc, but now I feel weak again. Forgot to bring him something I was meant to bring yesterday, so have to stop by his place today sometime. Oh my.
Mila says
@IMHO,
I think to have a lasting real friendship, you cannot write SOs out of the picture, they have to be included. But if there‘s the hidden agenda of limerence, then it will feel fake, of course.
So either one jumps over his own shadow (do you say that in English??)and manages to squash the limerent expectations and be generally friends with him and SO, so you can have him in your life, or the friendship will be either a torture for you or at least very difficult to let it last.
I actually recommend meeting him and his SO. Maybe you will even see a new side to him that you don’t like when you meet his SO .
But anyway I think either kill this limerence once and for all, don’t meet him now, go NC, let it all fizzle out – or go and meet him and maybe SO, so that you have some reality input instead of only dreams and ruminations.
IMHO says
Hi LwL (esp. Nisor, Mila, ABCD, Adam, Cordelia)
It’s been a while ……my meeting with long-distance LO happened ! I wanted to give an update after all the support you gave in the stressful lead-up.
It was at the end of the night of a massive event (I cannot disclose exactly) . I drifted from my work colleagues to get closer to the main stage and standing right next to me was LO, his SO and their friends. He spots me first. Freaky – as tens of thousands people at the event. what were the odds of that happening?!
Of course, I take this as some magical magnetic force between me & LO!
We were messaging each other earlier but hadn’t arranged a formal meet-up. And he obviously had not mentioned to his SO that he may meet work colleagues. We all spent some time together and was fun. I was shy around his SO, I felt very self-conscious. Never had this situation before. I’m noticing what is better and worse about her versus me – not proud of that. do others on LwL do that too ?
LO messages me late to check I got to hotel ok & heart emoji !
Couple days later we meet at work, no coffee/lunch invite from him despite me prompting for it. I realise it had to be some spontaneous meetings from his perspective. But friends arrange to meet, don’t they? especially when you are visiting their country?
Anyway, I didn’t over-prepare my appearance & actually looked very tired. We had a lovely long coffee conversation, both a little on edge. strong eye contact. Those damned eyes! he looks better than ever. We have a goodbye hug, warm & lingering.
I watch him walk away across the highway, he turns around and waves goodbye. I smile and wave back. He fades out of sight. Tears sting my eyes.
I may not see him for months, years, maybe never again.
On my flight home I find myself crying uncontrollably.
Adam says
“do others on LwL do that too ?”
IMHO
When I met Morgan (I am finding it therapeutic to the limerence for me to call her by name and not LO) she was divorced. About a year or a bit more into meeting her she started dating someone. When I found out, from another co-worker, my first thought of him was he’d better not hurt her heart after what that pos ex of hers did. I genuinely wanted her to be happy and hoped she had found a good man.
When I saw him in person for the first time the only thing I really thought about him compared to me was he was a lot younger. Younger even than her. Made me feel old and soon to be unnoticed.
However, as far as I know they are still together. A co-worker talked to her some months after her last day on the job and they are still happy together. And that’s the important thing to me. It’s what helps me maintain NC.
“I may not see him for months, years, maybe never again.”
Not to slip myself into rumination, but it was hard the day she left knowing that I might never talk to her or see her again. So I know what you feel now. And I am not going to try and sit here and lie to you with some cliche sayings, since it has been over a year since that day and I still struggle. But it will subside to a degree. As in 99% of the time if a thought of her comes in my head it’s my own doing, so to speak. I avoid my triggers as best I can. But there are no longer intrusive thoughts, and when those stop, and they will, it does get easier.
I am hoping for the best for however you and your LO go into the future. I know the feeling of grasping onto a possible friendship with an LO because it was what I was fooling myself could happen with Morgan. Until I realized, coming out of the worst of the limerence, is I could not hold up my end of the relationship in a healthy way. Limerence destroyed any possible friendship, unlike many other past female co-workers that I still at least have online friendship with via Facebook, I could have had with her.
Speedwagon says
Just popping in to say I’m struggling today. LO works on Fridays and it was only her and another employee in office today. Knew once the day started it would be rough. Had to have some in depth collaboration time with her and naturally conversation trails off into some banter where I can easily make her smile and laugh which feeds the LE. But it’s all futile and meaningless yet my emotions just desire more of her.
I hate this! Feels like a setback last couple days.
Nisor says
Speedwagon,
You’re hard on yourself. Just enjoy the few times you get to be with lo. ( precious moments). No use of beating yourself up . You have no other choice , relax.
Your situation with lo is not easy but don’t get an ulcer on account of the LE.
“When you release expectations, you are free to enjoy things for what they are instead of what you think they should be.” (Mandy Hale)
I wish I knew this before…
Courage and best wishes. Relax.
Speedwagon says
Nisor, I appreciate this comment. It actually affected me. I think you are right, at times I expend too much emotional energy fighting against my LE that it becomes just as counterproductive as fulling giving into it. Balance is always a virtue. I’ve decided that it’s better to remain diligent in the LE but also let me be me with LO and be OK with it. If warm banter happens, it happens and it’s not the end of the world. I think if I let go of the fight against it, I may also let go of the struggle and guilt after it.
That said, there are still interaction boundaries I need to keep in place but those are bigger and more concrete boundaries that keep me from pursuing LO.
Always evolving!
Mila says
@Speedwagon, I read some comments from you in the transference- Blogpost, may I ask if your current LO is the one it was back then, when you said you used transference to another colleague, or is it the one you kind of transferred your limerence to just to escape the other one (sorry, cannot express myself very well)?
You don’t have to answer, of course. I‘m just curious because I transferred from one LE to another already 2 times (not on purpose) and wonder if it worked in your case or if you just went into another LE that’s (as it sounds) also quite vexing now.
My apologies if that‘s too intruding a question.
Nisor says
Speed wagon,
“Balance is always a virtue.” Right on!
After all, when this LE fades away , if ever, the only thing that remains are those special moments spent with the Lo; Something to remember fondly. ( you cannot fool yourself …) Just keep the other barriers in place, like taking her alone on a business trip, etc. But in the office, what the heck, why get an ulcer or nervous breakdown by trying so hard to keep away from her? No matter what, you can’t, Business is business, and you have to put up with it, unless you or her quit. You know she is perhaps indifferent to you,
giving no expectations or hope, so ‘maybe’ interacting with her in a measured way will help the Le fade away faster??? I hope so for your sake. I wish this Limerence thing didn’t happen, but what else can you do? Relax and be yourself.
Have a great week.
Speedwagon says
@Mila
No, my LO has been the same LO for last 18 months. Before her LO#2 was 20 years prior. My current LO is very crystalized as an LO. The other woman I refer to in the Transference blog is another employee of mine, who is actually LOs best friend. This woman and I have become fairly good friends in the office and a little bit outside through texting. She is very relationally reciprocal which I appreciate. At one time I wondered if transference would happen but I just don’t have a very strong romantic desire for her, which is what makes her and great friend. I don’t get the sense either that she has any romantic feelings for me. But as for friendship she is actually a much better friend to me than LO. LO is tough relationally. She is fairly introverted, somewhat self absorbed (she mostly only talks about herself, asks very little questions of others), and not relationally reciprocal much at all. Not just with me but other people too. Before she became LO I did not have much of a relationship with her other than boss/employee.
If you want to know more of my story with LO it unfolds in real time in the Rescue Fantasy blog then the New Year’s Purpose blog. Long story short…LO becomes LO, I mildly pursue relationship with her for 9 months, things seem to heat up around Christmas time where I think feelings are mutual, a few weeks later I disclose, LO claims only friendship, I back off, try to undo the damage of disclosing, and now I have very little relationship with LO other than work interaction. But she still remains LO unfortunately.
Mila says
@Speedwagon, thanks so much. I’ll read it up some time, but for now I try to heed Limerent Emeritus (as he has the same acronym as Limerent Episode I have to spell him out as not to be confused:)), and not to spend too much time here.
But I appreciate the short version for now, thanks!
I had a very serious and exhausting LE 8?years ago, then another one which was quite strong and nerve wracking too but the LO was somehow a „better“ LO and now another one with my friend. The LOs got „better“, more sensible and warm people that didn’t give in to my craziness, but I transferred without a real break (when one fizzled out, the next came along as a kind of saviour?) and I‘m worried about that, as it means I seem to need LEs in my life and am unconsciously looking for the next when one is finished.
Doesn’t seem the case with you.
You seem to be kind of faithful in your LE.
What a hard thing to have disclosed and then still to work with her, I do have a lot of respect for you.
Does this best friend of hers know about the situation or about the disclosure?
I think Nisors advice is quite good in the sense that the less energy and bad feelings you have to exert in this LE, the better. If keeping away from her and refusing to interact is costing you, then maybe just interact. In my former LEs and now I experienced often that if it was better for my state of mind if I had friendly contact with LO than trying to keep him out of my life. The latter had something over-dramatic about it which fueled the limerence.
Being in loose casual but warm contact somehow made me feel good (of course because I craved it because of the limerence, I know) and made me ruminate and suffer less. Maybe for not quite the right reasons, but whatever brings you through the night.
Mila says
@Speedwagon again, I just remembered that I recently wrote to you to hang in and keep away from the banter etc, I take that back. I didn’t know you disclosed to her, I think that changes everything, given that this banter of hers is „innocent“.
You have to decide what is best for you. As I said if you have to see her every day anyway it‘s maybe better not to force yourself into a grim „stand away from me“- attitude but relax into a friendly atmosphere without seeking it actively.
Mila says
Speedwagon,
you were doing so good. It’s a rollercoaster, isn’t it.
I really respect your willpower.
It helps to realistically imagine what would happen when you indulge. Banter, etc etc, kind of friendship, and then? If something happens you deep down might desire, it won’t be the happy ending, there will be consequences, you work together etc etc, complications and unhappiness won’t be far. If it doesn’t happen, you will suffer anyway.
You know all this anyway, like me.
Hang in there!
I wish us strength..
Snowphoenix says
@Cordelia
Just want to say hi! Have been wondering how you’re doing and glad to hear you’re taking firm, positive action.
I’m happy to have raised self-awareness and positive moods through consistent mediation and workout, and can pay more attention to and appreciate other areas of life.
MJ says
Hey there favorite Cheerleader,
I’ve missed you. I was hoping you weren’t going completely awol on us.
Glad you are taking action. I know those night terrors can be quite frightful, if you remember we talked about before, because I had them for the longest time also.
You probably read I took some action recently, by attempting to get into therapy. Twice now and was rejected a 2nd time last week. Citing that my issues are too complex and that I really need to find a Therapist that specializes on more comprehensive issues.
I just come away dumbfounded that I’m actually that complex but I don’t know. I’m frustrated as hell about it. I go to these people with a need because the ad on their website states that they have 50+ clinicians in their network, that give responsive and compassionate support, for a whole myriad of issues. And then they tell me my depression is too complex? Sorry, you said that funny word limerence, we can’t help you. Thank you..
This is not responsive and compassionate support..
So now I’m back on the hunt again but to be honest, feel like I’m running on fumes. If this keeps up, I might just have to look up your Mark Groves fella, or whatever those other jungian type systems you were seeking out.
For now, think I’ll look up something over in the Big City and make a trip out of it if I have too. I work out that way, so may as well keep going a little farther north if there is something there they can offer me. We’ll see..
C for cat says
Maybe it’s the word ‘limerence’ that is putting them off, MJ? I wonder if they would still be able to help you, if it was phrased a different way eg. person or love addiction or something?
MJ says
I explained that it’s an intense obsession. That I can’t get her off my mind.
I don’t even think that’s the heart of the issue. I think I just want to not be so sad about it all the time, so I want to focus on the depressive nature of it.
Then again maybe tears are good. I went out to the lake yesterday and cried a river over her again. I wrote some good poetry and I felt good about doing it. All over LO of course, but I felt better afterwards.
Call me Cordelia says
Thanks SP, C4C and MJ for your replies 🥰
@SP great to hear you’re making positive changes too!
@MJ I haven’t checked in often so wasn’t aware of your full story with the psychologist. I am astonished they’re allowed to turn away someone in need. I’d expect at the very least they should refer you to someone they think might be able to help 🤷♀️
When I told my therapist about limerence she went away and learnt about it so she could support me.
Maybe they feel it’s more a psychiatry issue? I tend to disagree with that. I did see a discussion between you and Adam and maybe some others about how there were no issues in your childhood. I once thought that about might childhood as well. When I finally realised that parents will always damage you, despite their love and best intentions, it became much easier to process. I see it every day with my own child who I love to the moon and back. But on the days I’m exhausted, I snap. Not her fault. When something awful has happened that I can’t tell her about, she feels it but doesn’t know why. There are endless everyday scenarios that will negatively affect a little person’s mind and sense of secure attachment. I feel I will be able to rectify this to an extent when she’s not so young and dependent on me for everything, but for now, I see the hurt on her little face when I can’t be the human God she needs at this point in her life. When we acknowledge the shortcomings of our parents and forgive them, we allow compassion for ourselves and our own shortcomings. I still haven’t completely forgiven my parents (mostly because I can’t talk to them about it and nor have they asked for my forgiveness). I would say I *understand*. But forgiveness for everything is quite the feat. I ask my child for forgiveness regularly.
Many of the men (or really, I should say boys) who have declared their love for me are much, much younger than me. I know this is misplaced affection for a mother figure. Do you feel there could be a desire to fix the relationship with your daughter through LO?
If you do come to the conclusion that you really would like to use the resources I used, I will post them again. Leave me a message in the latest coffee house post and I’ll read through them every now and then 😊 But if you don’t reach the point where you *know* you’re out of other options and this is pretty much the only action that will help, it’ll just sit there unused. But I’ve planted a seed. That’s enough for now 😌
@C4C
I like the sound of your post. I remember some of those moments. Empowering moments when I realised LO’s opinion (nor the opinion of others) could define me. I climbed a mountain by myself. I was the last person to reach the summit that day. I knew I was the highest person for 1000 kilometers or
more. I scrambled back down on my own in the dark. Probably not the most sensible thing I ever did but very empowering. The entire trip was a solo hiking/camping trip that pushed me to my limits. Another one was the Vipassana 10-day silent meditation. Hard work but very worth it. All action of some sort. I think proving to myself I can do things that are hard, that scare the pants off me and that challenge my thinking is the best way for me to not give a hoot what other people think of me. I’m proud of me. Sounds like seeking out therapy will be that big step for you! ❤️
Snowphoenix says
I’m second to Call me Cordelia in suggesting that Vipassana 10-day silent retreat is good for everyone, although it sounds scary. I’ve been to the course 3.5 times, one would know the benefits only after 10 days of complete silence and sitting meditation. It’s donation based, and they won’t take a penny of yours if somehow you could not finish the entire 10 days. It has location all around the world. https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/index
@CmC: my current daily mediation is Vipassana incorporated. Your sole mountain climbing sounds so great, I did several times with a group.
Sammy says
“Uh … maybe if you’re in a sorority and you all get the same highlights to your hair. 🙂
I just don’t find talking about hair, makeup, nails and clothes all that interesting. I mean, a little bit is fine, but it’s like talking about what one is making for dinner. It’s best as a short topic. 🙂”
@Marcia.
Well, I did list this under “humorous suggestion” for a reason! 😁
But, yes, I get it. Deeper and more complex personalities don’t want to major in the trifles. 🤣
But, seriously, as far as my own life is concerned, I used to make a big effort with my appearance, only to ask myself afterwards: “Who am I dressing up for? I haven’t seen LO in years! I’m dressing up for a … ghost?” 🙄
Marcia says
Sammy,
“But, seriously, as far as my own life is concerned, I used to make a big effort with my appearance, only to ask myself afterwards: “Who am I dressing up for? I haven’t seen LO in years! I’m dressing up for a … ghost?””
I used to spend a lot more time on my appearance, too. But, like you, I haven’t seen my LO in years …. and Richard Gere is not going to show up to carry me out of my work place. No point in getting all gussied up! 🙂 I’d rather sleep in a bit.
Sammy says
“I used to spend a lot more time on my appearance, too. But, like you, I haven’t seen my LO in years …. and Richard Gere is not going to show up to carry me out of my work place. No point in getting all gussied up! 🙂 I’d rather sleep in a bit.”
@Marcia.
Oh, thank goodness you’re not really mad at me! For some reason, my anxiety flared up. I was worried I said something terribly, terribly wrong and that crowds of angry villagers would come after me with pitchforks. (Must be another strange fantasy from my childhood – out-of-control anxiety, being chased, a desire to be punished for real or imagined sin. Maybe a desire ultimately to be in control? A desire to control the world around me even if it means shamelessly manipulating the narrative?).
I’ve decided there are two things I like about LwL:
(1) Most of the exchanges are written, and for some reason written communication is more satisfying to me than talking to people face-to-face.
(2) I’ve learned that I don’t hate women as much as I feared I did, and women don’t actually hate me. So I think LwL is a useful corrective for any chauvinism/misogyny I might have lurking in my system. I mean, I think I have some quaint ideas about the behaviour of women in general, and the women at LwL usually put me right about what I’m getting wrong. 😆
I can’t get over the fact that people in real life are often way more chilled out than the people in my head are! 😉
Mila says
I as a female second Marcia here:)- don’t know why men seem to think that all women are these frilly creatures that love to talk about nail polish and high heels. I blame American movies;)
Also I‘m not quite on board with jokes at my expense. Maybe that’s also a male thing? If somebody tries to bond with me in a warm platonic way, he certainly won’t get there by making hurtful remarks evening they are „funny“? A little bit of affectionate riling is ok though.
Sammy says
“Also I‘m not quite on board with jokes at my expense. Maybe that’s also a male thing? If somebody tries to bond with me in a warm platonic way, he certainly won’t get there by making hurtful remarks evening they are „funny“? A little bit of affectionate riling is ok though.”
@Mila.
Thank you for sharing.
You’re right. The joke at another’s expense is predominantly a male thing. In Australia, for example, where I’m from, good-natured put-downs seems to be how men bond with other men. It’s almost a way of saying: “Hey, we accept you as part of the group – but only if you’re thick-skinned enough to accept the putdown and roll with it.” 😉
The jokes aren’t excessively mean. I mean, they’re not usually about someone’s weight or appearance or something like that. I’ve been teased about the fact that I always eat everything on my plate when I dine out in a cafe. I think the manager said to me one day: “Good grief! It’s a good thing these plates don’t have patterns on them, or you’d eat them (the patterns) too.” 🤣
In Australia, the good-natured putdown between men is almost a social “test of character” i.e. is this fellow one of us or not? If a man reacted badly to the putdown, he probably wouldn’t be accepted into the group. He would be ostracised. I know many mothers might have a hard time understanding what’s going on if their sons were subjected to said treatment, and subsequently complained about it. The mother might assume her son was being bullied. But fathers would probably understand the dynamics at play, and tell sons not to worry. The young man is merely being “welcomed into the group as an equal”. 😉
It’s not how women bond with women in my country or how people bond across the gender divide, (not usually anyway!!), so I understand where you’re coming from when you say you wouldn’t enjoy it. 🤔
The subject of communication differences between the sexes is fascinating, so we might dwell on it a little here. I have heard it said that when males say unkind things to other males, they are invariably being insincere e.g. playful sarcasm designed to enhance male bonding. Being teased by another male is a POSITIVE thing, in other words. If you’re a male, you probably WANT to be teased by other males. Being frequently teased denotes a certain social status. You’re not exactly sitting at the bottom of the social hierarchy. 😉
I have heard it said, on the other hand, that when women say nice things to other women, women are apparently being insincere. I can’t confirm whether the latter is true or not. However, I hope that it is not true, because it perpetuates the stereotype that women as a group are catty and aren’t really capable of being happy for another woman, particularly if that other woman is doing well in her life. 🤔
As an autistic male, I had to learn to “roll with the punches” somewhat in response to teasing from other males. I had to change my mindset and accept that such teasing is almost always affectionate and not malicious. Now I just laugh at any jokes directed my way. Jokes don’t bother me. I have learnt not to take offence at something that isn’t meant to give offence. But it’s been a long journey, you know? I didn’t develop a thick skin overnight…
It’s weird. It’s a bit like men are afraid of being nice to each other in a straightforward way. Maybe the “indirect kindness” reflects a fear of coming across as feminine or too sentimental? I dunno. But the fact men use sarcasm frequently to bond with other (well-liked) men is fascinating from an anthropological point of view. 🤔
Mila says
@Sammy for some reason I replied to you in the wrong place. Hope you find it🙄
Marcia says
Sammy,
“In Australia, the good-natured putdown between men is almost a social “test of character” i.e. is this fellow one of us or not?”
Idk. I watched the guys at one job I had … some of them were cruel to each other. Found each others’ weakness and zeroed in. Not all were like that, but some.
I can see why men like the “softness” and “non-competitiveness” they experience with women. The emotional nurturing, as one guy I dated put it. Because they don’t get that with their male friends.
Sammy says
“I watched the guys at one job I had … some of them were cruel to each other. Found each others’ weakness and zeroed in. Not all were like that, but some. I can see why men like the “softness” and “non-competitiveness” they experience with women. The emotional nurturing, as one guy I dated put it. Because they don’t get that with their male friends.”
@Marcia.
Ah, that is an extremely interesting insight! 😛
I don’t think I’d last very long in an environment where the roughness was real. 🙄
Snowphoenix says
@sammy
“In Australia, the good-natured putdown between men is almost a social “test of character” i.e. is this fellow one of us or not?”
It’s totally true in my COO. If a man can’t take a humorous “putdown”, he would be and remains a social outcast for sure! The more a man could bare smiling mocking, the stronger and longer the fraternal bonding become. I was always envious to watch them, because most women are just too thin-skinned to take the most benign “putdown.”
Snowphoenix says
Since young, I’ve always wanted to befriend boys and men in “male bonding” ways, freely discussing and debating every subject under the Sun. But just about NONE of males (except gay men) reciprocated me in my preferred and dreamed ways, either as a LO or a limerent or simply a girl/woman. I did not understand why (maybe I have less than 50% anima in me)
Dad bonded with me like I were a true tomboy, who was mentally challenged, teased and putdown mostly with a good nature. He insisted in speaking the last word until after I emigrated. Then my unconscious took a “revenge” at him — I automatically spoke the last word even over phone. His ego-pride was “wounded”. When asked once why, I said I had a marvelous teacher — “You!” He just laughed heartedly.
I guess that how I’ve got a lot of “animus” from both Dad and masculine Mom who does not know “how to sew a dress but a human body” — her own words. She never put on any makeup in her entire life, except on my wedding day — a bit of rouge on the lips.
Sammy says
“Since young, I’ve always wanted to befriend boys and men in “male bonding” ways, freely discussing and debating every subject under the Sun. But just about NONE of males (except gay men) reciprocated me in my preferred and dreamed ways, either as a LO or a limerent or simply a girl/woman. I did not understand why (maybe I have less than 50% anima in me)”
@Snowphoenix.
My whole life I think I’ve romanticised “male bonding”. But I’m not necessarily sure whether the real version is all that playful or good-natured. I guess a lot depends on the dispositions of the individual men. Sometimes, it seems like the male friends in film have better relationships than the male friends in real life. But I guess that’s true of women too. 🤔
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
I guess it’s a “tragedy” of me that I could not bond well either with boys/men or girls/women from birth through youth since there was no one really modeled me how; Mom and Dad already switched their anima/animus roles at home.
I always had a couple of loyal girlfriends; my limited fearless rebellious deeds “scared” most of them away, and often I thought majority of them too girlish and coward. I liked to “wrestle” with boys in discussion or debate, but they avoided my kind of approach. So I indulged myself in books, where substantial friendship between men and women seemed to be possible. Much later, a middle school classmate told me that I was too different, or too “mature”, so my male peers distanced themselves from me — I was “unapproachable”.
Later, I primarily observed or imagined bondings of classmates through their behaviors on surface or in books or movies. I still can’t tell whether there is more anima or animus in me — I suspect the latter. For the record, I only instinctually glimmered at men with a big dose of femininity, never at any women even if I so wished them to “mother” adult me.
I’m very jealous of anyone who has close sibling ties!
Mila says
It’s surely an interesting subject. I know and recognize what you describe as male bonding although it‘s not that distinct in my environment.
I even have received some of that kind of riling and immediately knew it‘s important to react good-humoured, because otherwise it would show that you are insecure and „cannot take a joke“. It‘s still not my favorite way of bonding;)
Also in my experience, women really tend to compliment other women much more than men, but they are not being necessarily insincere.
Maybe they tell them what they themselves would like to hear because women tend to be more insecure what concerns their looks and general confidence. So they give what they would like to receive.
And even if the compliment is over the top or not quite true, they give it because they know it will make the other person feel more secure and happy, and they want to give them that, because then this person will immediately feel better and through that be more beautiful/confident anyway, so it isn’t insincere, it‘s kind of well-meant.
Or something like that. Not quite sure.
Sammy says
@Mila.
Thank you for your response. Yes, I found it just fine… 😉
“And even if the compliment is over the top or not quite true, they give it because they know it will make the other person feel more secure and happy, and they want to give them that, because then this person will immediately feel better and through that be more beautiful/confident anyway, so it isn’t insincere, it‘s kind of well-meant. Or something like that. Not quite sure.”
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I think women sometimes talk more to communicate feelings, and this seemingly constant feeling-orientated talk can drive men barmy. (Maybe men suspect women of being insincere?) 😉
In other words, I think men don’t always understand how or why women prioritise feelings in communication. Of course, not all women prioritise feelings in communication. And, of course, some men do prioritise feelings in communication. But I think, broadly-speaking, on average, women do concern themselves more with feelings, their own feelings and other people’s feelings, and try to make a point of not upsetting people’s feelings. And none of that is bad.
On the topic of compliments, it’s great to hear women do pay other women sincere compliments, and that these compliments are motivated by empathy. However, because women prioritise feelings, a woman might be slightly more likely than a man to pay someone an insincere compliment because the woman knows that that compliment might lift the spirits of the recipient. So the insincerity can come from a place of empathy and not a place of malice. Maybe women as a group are kinder when it comes to communication? I dunno…
I didn’t mean to patronise you and Marcia by suggesting that women should just busy themselves with the details of their toilette, and all will be well with the world! As if women really have nothing better to do! I do apologise if I ruffled feathers. My intention was actually to tell a joke at my own expense i.e. “Stop being so vain, Sammy. No one is actually looking at you.” Nor I was suggesting that conventional men should, conversely, just busy themselves with conventionally masculine activities as an instant solution to heartache. 😉
No, all jokes aside, what I really meant was limerents sort of need to find their mini-tribe, whoever their mini-tribe may be, and maybe join in some of the activities favoured by that mini-tribe? (One’s mini-tribe could be forty-something-year-olds who still love playing video games, for example).
I think that limerence can make one withdraw a little bit from social life maybe, especially if and when one is feeling particularly sad. It does seem to me that much human social life is organised around gender roles. I’m not saying people should lie about their tastes, or do anything they’re strongly opposed to. I’m saying sometimes introverts need to partake in the things that extrovert peers enjoy, without judging extrovert peers too harshly for enjoying those things. Extroverts might be more likely to conform to gender norms than introverts.
A day of fun-filled activities enjoyed by the average extrovert might help shake the average lovesick introvert out of a particularly low mood. Who knows? At the very least, an extrovert peer might feel cherished, or welcome the company. 🤔
I know that as an introvert suffering from limerence, I definitely withdrew from extrovert friends and from the kind of activities that my extroverted social circle wanted to do. And I think, in hindsight, that was a big mistake…
Really, all I’m saying is, despite being consumed with sadness, the limerent should strive not to cut themselves off entirely from society. The people and the diversions that one might find in the world may ultimately be one’s salvation. But I also know how hard it is to socialise when one is constantly tired, feels unlovable, feels on edge, feels like one’s head is exploding, is suffering from insomnia or poor appetite or chronic indigestion. I remember all those feelings of discomfort so well. I felt like I was living in a stranger’s body for a long time.
Yes, the tricky thing about limerence is that it does seem to affect every cell in one’s body and one can almost take perverse satisfaction in finding excuses NOT to socialise. I think what I felt as a limerent was that I wanted to be part of the world, but I wanted to be part of the world on my own terms. I didn’t want to be part of the world on the world’s terms. The world’s terms didn’t seem fair.
It was like every cell in my body was revolting against the idea of being a normal person, or … shock horror … having innocent, garden-variety fun. How can I say this? I became very selfish about sharing my soul. (Wouldn’t want any of the rare treasures of my soul accidentally going to the wrong people now, would I?) 🙄
Nisor says
Sammy,
…suggesting that women should just busy themselves with the details of their toilette…
You’re very keen in humanity. As human beings we’re such a special and diverse. creation , that it is impossible to pin down or describe how anyone is. Each one of us is a unique piece of art as our irises and digital prints are not comparable to another’s fingerprints or eye 👁️ irises. Humans are like a garden in which each kind of plant is beautiful but different in shape or color , texture, aroma or type etc. You can find cactus 🌵, roses with thorns, begonia, petunias, peonies, violets, etc. in the same garden of life. But they’re all beautiful in their own style and kind.
It is said that men’s love enters through the eyes, the beauty of the face, shape, curves, movement etc. The women’s love, instead, enters through the ears, they want to be heard attentively, understood , be desired, be loved, etc. Some even go as far as to say: ‘I’d rather be understood than loved.’
I’m greedy, I want them both, desired and loved!!!
As an introvert, I enjoy being alone rather than with a boring person. Books can be enough company to me. But i have the need to extrovert also. Nature is great for me, talking and mingling with other people also, but outside my place, and when I want to. Sometimes I’m forced to go, like to a wedding, baptism, birthday party, etc, and I enjoy it. But please, not too often! My castle 🏰 is my castle…
It is private, it’s where I withdraw to be private.
Now to the main subject of dressing etc. I declare as straight female that I love beautiful things, like home furnishings, decorations, bed sheets , , tablecloth , tableware , etc., but mainly, I love clothes, shoes, handbags, jewelry. I can open a boutique with all I have! I love to dress nice, (since small I had a weakness for those) , to be elegant, and people notice and always tell me. My nails done and my hair also. I’m a natural, don’t need too much time to transform myself , ha. I don’t wear false eyelashes or make up, jus t hydrating cream and lipstick, and I’m
done. Men, old and young do really notice a well dressed woman!!! I should know, I m the oldest of the group, ha. ( and I don’t mean ridiculous or provocative dressed, but plain and elegant).
Really, it doesn’t take much time to be beautifully dressed, it’s a matter of taste, a good eye for pretty things.
Beauty enters through the eyes… just look at nature, creation itself speaks of beauty, a rainbow, landscape, sunset, the sky stars moon, flowers, etc etc etc. As beauty is in poetry, music, painting, architecture, people appreciate and admire beauty. Beauty surrounds us and we perceive it and admire it.
Great day to everyone!!!
Sammy says
“…suggesting that women should just busy themselves with the details of their toilette…
You’re very keen in humanity. As human beings we’re such a special and diverse. creation, that it is impossible to pin down or describe how anyone is.”
@Nisor.
There are times when people shouldn’t take what I say literally. I try to be serious and give good advice, but this cheeky and satirical side of me comes out and I just don’t know where the cheeky and satirical side comes from… Then I feel ashamed for being cheeky because I was raised to be the opposite of cheeky. 🙄
The details of one’s toilette? What Anglo-Saxon person even talks like that? Maybe I was unconsciously paraphrasing “The Second Sex” by Simone de Beauvoir, which I read several years ago in a futile attempt to understand my mother? Or maybe I was channelling “Madame Bovary”, which admittedly was written by a man, and a Frenchman at that! The admirable Gustave Flaubert! 😁
Honestly, if men do rant about women’s grooming habits, it is at least partly motivated by envy – envy that women seem to have a greater variety of ways to beautify themselves, if so desired. It’s envy of the options the other sex is believed, rightly or wrongly, to possess. It’s not necessarily chauvinism. At my school formal, for example, the females could look like brilliant parrots while the males mostly looked like penguins (clad in penguin suits, of course!).
Actually, to dampen an LE, maybe both sexes should consider “dressing down” as that would make one less desirable in theory, and less likely to catch LO’s eye. But, like I say, nonsense advice, tongue-in-cheek advice. One can’t “dress down” if one has a dress code. I’ve actually bothered to shave since penning this advice, so please ignore me. My hypocrisy on the subject is … staggering. 😉
“It is said that men’s love enters through the eyes, the beauty of the face, shape, curves, movement etc. The women’s love, instead, enters through the ears, they want to be heard attentively, understood , be desired, be loved, etc. Some even go as far as to say: ‘I’d rather be understood than loved.’”
The ideas that you mention here sound rather poetic, as well as true. You seem to know a thing or two about Eros. I think I’ve reached the point in life where I’m ready to give up on Eros. I’m just so tried. I don’t know if I can motivate myself to care anymore. The old hormones have gone on vacation; the brain has retired. But I somewhat enjoy watching other people have their (mis)adventures.
I think I can pick limerents out in a crowd, especially younger ones. You can always tell a limerent. Or, at the very least, you can always tell a happy limerent. The glowing skin and the shining eyes are a real giveaway, as well as that restless energy. Maybe a spring in the step too? Male limerents and female limerents are both “radiant” to some extent, the females probably moreso than the males. 😉
I actually like being non-limerent to some extent because, without a brain immersed in scary-high levels of dopamine, making me excessively self-conscious, I can enjoy the endless parade of human beauty more. It’s kind of like I can enjoy the world more because I’m no longer placing myself at the centre of the world.
“I’m greedy, I want them both, desired and loved!!!”
I envy people who still want things in life. Especially people who are older than me. It must be nice to have that kind of energy and optimism still. Religious guilt always cruelled limerence for me. I could never enjoy the highs and I thought I deserved the lows. Love is nice. Desire is nice. The only trouble with desire is that desire unchecked can easily be confused with love. 😉
Snowphoenix says
@sammy,
I laughed so heartedly after reading your reply to Nisor’s message, it’s so tastefully humorous and marvelous sarcastic with literary references! 👏😀
Sammy says
“I laughed so heartedly after reading your reply to Nisor’s message, it’s so tastefully humorous and marvelous sarcastic with literary references! 👏😀”
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you. But actually my remarks make me think how weird (and sad) my upbringing was in comparison to other people’s…
I mean, most young men don’t say to themselves one day: “Oh dear. I don’t really understand Mummy. She’s been getting on my nerves of late. I know what I’ll do – I’ll just study the bible of second-wave feminism. Surely all the answers are in to be found in Mlle de Beauvoir’s seminal work.” 🙄🤣
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
To me, what flying in your mind and what drilling your brain is NOT weird but expected for those who are seriously interested in and caring about self-realization, self-actualization, or individuation. Few people, men or women, do not, or do not talk about, these Socratic or Freudian, or Jungian questions.
Can you imagine how an attractive women, in her makeup and high heels, walks around with those questions pounding her head?
Mila says
@Sammy, no, I get it.
In different groups of people are different ways of bonding, they are not rules, maybe some kind of „language“, saying „look, I’m like you, I know the language, we can feel safe together“ and for smooth going in this group or simply to be polite it‘s good to speak this „language“ even if it’s not the way one would usually express oneself. With my girl friends of younger age I actually give more compliment talk and clothes discussions because they like it, while with other friends I‘m a bit different.
What I haven’t experienced is the wish to socialize less when limerent. If anything, I socialize more. LO is usually in some group or other and I socialize there just to spend time with him. I don’t want to sit alone at home and think of him, I want to see him etc., to the extent that I spend less time with my family, which isn’t good.
I waste time on social gatherings just to be near LO instead spending precious time working on something (living purposefully!) or with my family.
But that’s what I mean with us being different and in different life situations!
Sammy says
“… no, I get it.
In different groups of people are different ways of bonding, they are not rules, maybe some kind of „language“, saying „look, I’m like you, I know the language, we can feel safe together“ and for smooth going in this group or simply to be polite it‘s good to speak this „language“ even if it’s not the way one would usually express oneself. With my girl friends of younger age I actually give more compliment talk and clothes discussions because they like it, while with other friends I‘m a bit different.”
@Mila.
Well, I think as an autistic person desperate to fit in, for a while I overestimated the importance of “rules” and underestimated the importance of “emotion” in human social interactions. So, if anyone was a bit out of touch, it was very likely me! 😉
I think, when I was younger, both my male peers and my female peers spoke the language of “emotion” – among themselves, and to each other – and I wasn’t quite picking up on this language, so I probably missed out on/misinterpreted a lot of what was going on.
“What I haven’t experienced is the wish to socialize less when limerent.”
I think some limerents might socialise less due to the LE “crowding out” all the free space in their heads. So maybe … concentration problems? Not really being fully present when hanging out with friends? 🤔
Sammy says
“But that’s what I mean with us being different and in different life situations!”
@Mila.
I’m not really sure what your particular situation is. I haven’t come across your story because of the sheer number of stories on the blog. It sounds like you might be dealing with mutual limerence?
Undoubtedly, people’s life circumstances vary greatly. And the causes of limerence may well be different too. But apparently limerence, as a biological phenomenon, does unfold in an eerily similar way for the people who report having it i.e. three stages (infatuation, crystallisation, deterioration), the feeling that life is in technicolour, physical symptoms around LO such as rapid heartbeat or trembling, mood swings involving ecstasy and despair.
I think there is a connection between the “life in technicolour” effect and mood swings. Basically, one can end mood swings, but ending mood swings comes with a price, and that price is life no longer lived in technicolour. So, it’s an interesting dilemma for people who perhaps enjoy living life in technicolour, and don’t want to lose that.
Mila says
Sammy,
„I’m not really sure what your particular situation is. I haven’t come across your story because of the sheer number of stories on the blog. It sounds like you might be dealing with mutual limerence?“
The three LEs that I count were all more or less mutual. The first with disclosure from both sides, the second only with hints and a lot of uncertainty, (in hindsight it was mutual but he was much more aware that there’s nothing possible at all between us than me) and the current is my good friend for years. And all colleagues, I have to say. Which means that I met them a lot in daily life and also socialized with them, hence the socializing a lot when limerent:)
I gather that you mean by socializing to meet friends without LO.
I get it that one might not have much taste for that.
I think without at least a hint of mutuality I cannot be limerent. That might be different from other limerents.
Sammy says
@Mila.
“The three LEs that I count were all more or less mutual. The first with disclosure from both sides, the second only with hints and a lot of uncertainty, (in hindsight it was mutual but he was much more aware that there’s nothing possible at all between us than me) and the current is my good friend for years.”
Well, if limerence is something you sort of feel comfortable with as a concept, then having had disclosure or reliable hints must seem like a blessing to some degree… I mean, you really are living out one or more romantic fantasies and it’s not just all in your head. 😉
I don’t know if infatuations are less stressful when they’re very clearly mutual? I suppose it depends on circumstances… 🤔
“I think without at least a hint of mutuality I cannot be limerent. That might be different from other limerents.”
In theory, true limerence can’t really develop without both hope and uncertainty. So, I’m thinking the LO always has to do or say something at some point in the interaction to inspire hope in the limerent. Whether a given limerent can correctly identify “hope” from a whole slew of other emotions and possible explanations, who can say? I.e. some LOs might offer signs of hope without realising it. Some LOs might not know how enchanting they must seem… 😜
I’m not really sure what my “issue” is. Seems like I saw hope in interactions where no real grounds for hope existed i.e. the other person didn’t have romantic feelings or an interest in a serious relationship. I was raised by a narcissistic mother, so I wonder if I’ve always had elevated levels of dopamine and cortisol in my system?
As a child, long before I met any potential LOs, I experienced the world around me very vividly. Nature, etc, all seemed to be in technicolour. I don’t know if that was the effect of my mother’s personality on me or whether it was just some abnormality in my still-developing brain? I felt like the world and me were one. I felt as if the world was some giant womb that I was just swimming in. 🤔
In hindsight, I think I was reacting limerently to my narcissistic mother. (She was very unpredictable). Actually, I think I failed to separate mentally from my narcissistic mother, so her worldview turned out to be my worldview, her feelings my feelings, etc, etc.
I DO know I don’t really like the person I am when limerent. I think I act in a way that could be described as narcissistic (or just plain deluded, really). A poet that’s deluded is still a madman. 😁
While in limerence, I always feel like I’m chasing some goal that seems worthwhile, so limerence DOES feel like purposeful living to me. But now I think the goals I run towards aren’t really there. Or, if someone has shown genuine romantic interest in me at some point, I’ve misread the whole situation and let the chance go by. 🤔
“I gather that you mean by socializing to meet friends without LO.
I get it that one might not have much taste for that.”
Yes, I meant socialising without LO. But I understand the converse as well. I can understand how having an LO can greatly increase one’s desire to socialise, particularly if one gets to be around LO.
My LO attended my school formal, for instance. I spent the whole night sitting next to him. (We both had female dates, and the girls didn’t really seem to mind leaving us boys to ourselves for most of the evening. Maybe the girls knew, rightly, that we wouldn’t get up to any mischief. We were both … too boring, too genteel, too mild-mannered). And, at the end of the night, my LO gave me a hug, which actually came as a surprise. That was the only time I ever got a hug out of him. I felt like I was walking on air on the way home.
And my second-favourite male friend also attended my school formal, and he said I looked nice in my suit after I told him that he looked nice in his. That felt like a big triumph for me too. I don’t think I would have wanted to go to the school formal if these two young men weren’t present. Like a vampire, I was somehow sucking energy out of them, and using them to stabilise my moods. 🙄
A couple of months after high school ended, I started to fall apart. I kept in contact with my LO, and he gave me sufficiently “mixed signals” to unleash fully the rollercoaster ride of limerence. But every time I got a letter from him in the post … euphoria! 😜
Mila says
Sammy,
„Well, if limerence is something you sort of feel comfortable with as a concept, then having had disclosure or reliable hints must seem like a blessing to some degree… I mean, you really are living out one or more romantic fantasies and it’s not just all in your head. 😉“
Not if you‘ve got a SO and a family that you love…
No, I don’t feel that comfortable with the concept of limerence, at least not with the debilitating, painful sides of it.
Today I‘ m especially fed up with it. Such a time waster. And:
„I DO know I don’t really like the person I am when limerent. I think I act in a way that could be described as narcissistic (or just plain deluded, really).“
I think I get so selfish when limerent. For example now I‘m limerent for my friend, which makes me a much worse friend than before. he doesn’t realize, of course, because it’s only in my mind yet.
But I want him to want me on a level that’s unhealthy for his marriage and family, I wait for his texts and get annoyed if he doesn’t respond in the way I would like etc etc, now I try to fight the limerence by concentrating on his annoying sides…
I should just leave him be like he is, wish and do what is best for him and his family and not getting angry/dependent on his behavior or texts.
In limerence I concentrate too much on my feelings, what I desire etc. It’s really quite selfish.
When I read my diaries from LEs before, I realize that for example my LO2 behaved admirably and fought a good fight against his own limerence. Never saw it that way, only was sad and annoyed when he pulled back.
I admire you all that you analyzed so much about your childhood, parents etc. Maybe you just had to and I was lucky in not having to.
I‘m sure that many of my complexes and behaviors stem from my childhood, but somehow I don’t feel the need to follow it back.
I‘m an adult now for a long time and want to be the one responsible for my behavior. That doesn’t mean at all! that you are not taking responsibility or are not right to analyze! to the contrary, it‘s a criticism of myself because I just don’t do it and don’t feel like it.
Sammy says
@Mila.
“Not if you‘ve got a SO and a family that you love…
No, I don’t feel that comfortable with the concept of limerence, at least not with the debilitating, painful sides of it.
Today I‘ m especially fed up with it. Such a time waster.”
Yes, I see what you mean… Having an SO and a family might make an LE more than a little uncomfortable and distressing. 🤔
The “downs” can indeed be debilitating too.
“But I want him to want me on a level that’s unhealthy for his marriage and family, I wait for his texts and get annoyed if he doesn’t respond in the way I would like etc etc, now I try to fight the limerence by concentrating on his annoying sides…”
Your description here of how you feel is very eloquent. I imagine that a lot of women can relate. The fact you care about the health of his marriage and his family, as well as your own, speaks volumes about your character i.e. in a good way. 😉
Yes, I think a big, big problem with limerence for many people is … it kind of tricks the brain into reacting to LO as if one is already one half of a couple with LO, even if this isn’t the case! For some reason, boundaries seem to become blurred inside one’s own head. Indeed, one cannot evict LO from one’s head even if/when tries!! The tree of obsession refuses to be ripped out by the roots, and thus remains firmly entrenched. Desire begets yet more desire and more desire.
It’s been a long time since I’ve wanted someone on that level, so perhaps I am not the right person to consult. I am getting forgetful about what that feels like to be that … consumed. When one is no longer actively limerent, one struggles to empathise with desire – all desire, any desire. One feels as if one’s watching a movie on TV instead, and becomes more interested in set design than plot. 🙂
I mean, there must been many older people who struggle to remember the heady days of passion, or why they were excited about some paramour in the past. And they might scoff good-naturedly at some younger person who reports suffering from some persistent but unwanted attraction, just like the German population in the nineteenth century largely laughed at Goethe over his misguided/unrequited love for Charlotte von Stein. 🤔
My intention isn’t to scoff at you, or anyone else. Even though I’ve lived through limerence myself, I struggle to remember … how awful the lows are, how amazing the highs are, how possessive I felt about my “beloved”, how he really was the only thing that mattered to me.
“I admire you all that you analyzed so much about your childhood, parents etc. Maybe you just had to and I was lucky in not having to.”
I don’t really see myself as a role model or anything, and I don’t think what causes my TENDENCY toward limerence is necessarily the same thing that causes anyone else’s limerence, or tendency toward limerence. I’m more interested in my tendency toward limerence at this stage in the game as opposed to getting over a specific case.
I talk about my family of origin so much because when I was younger I wasn’t allowed to talk about my family of origin. There was a lot of secrecy in my family. So talking about my family in retrospect is cathartic for me – it helps me understand where I come from. 😉
Plus, some of the stories about my mother are just plain funny! 😁
“I‘m an adult now for a long time and want to be the one responsible for my behavior.”
Nothing wrong with taking a no-nonsense adult approach! 😛
I’m sort of at a point in my limerence where my limerence has mostly subsided. So I kind of enjoy hearing the nitty-gritty about other people’s lives. I’m fascinated in the biological and environment factors that maybe have shaped other people’s personalities. I wonder if limerents share anything in common (apart from limerence, of course). I think limerence intersects with everything, so it’s a departure point to talking about human nature in general. 🙂
Perhaps this ability of mine to take a desultory interest in other people’s lives should be taken as a sign that recovery (for me) is well and truly underway. I don’t feel the sadness now. I don’t feel that much guilt either. I’m not trapped inside my head. Long story short, the pain really does go away … eventually. Time takes away the horrible, gut-wrenching pain of loving someone who doesn’t love you back and yet maybe gives false hope of a reciprocal passion.
I actually think that what differentiates limerence from other romantic complaints is limerence isn’t an “inability to get over love”; limerence is an ‘inability to get over a broken heart”. Limerence isn’t about love. Limerence, for the most part, is about heartbreak. Limerence is about the dark side of love. Limerence is about … not getting what you want and not accepting that you can’t have it. 😉
But I understand anyone who feels impatient or irritated with their own inability to move on. Most people, unlike me, don’t have a couple spare decades free to get over some infatuation. I get that many people here are “stuck in a rut” and wants solutions. I get that talking ad nauseum about social customs may not be helpful. On the other hand, I feel that doing pretty much anything rather than obsessing over one’s LO is a move in the right direction. 😉
So when I encourage people to socialise more, preferably without LO present, what I’m really advocating is … taking an interest in the world. The world is bigger than one’s LO. But limerence reduces the world to just LO and one’s all-consuming fantasies about LO. But the world in all its infinite variety might constantly remind one of one’s LO too, so it’s very hard I know. Limerence is a real catch-22. 🤔
Mila says
@Sammy,
„Yes, I think a big, big problem with limerence for many people is … it kind of tricks the brain into reacting to LO as if one is already one half of a couple with LO, even if this isn’t the case! For some reason, boundaries seem to become blurred inside one’s own head.“
„Limerence is about the dark side of love. Limerence is about … not getting what you want and not accepting that you can’t have it. 😉“
Hit it on the head again, Sammy. It‘s obvious that you are an old and wise hand at limerence.
I don’t feel scoffed at at all! It reassures me when you say that limerence seems to lose its sting when you get older.
I‘m waiting for that, actually.
I‘m quite sure that hormonal changes and upheavals play a role in the limerence getting more severe or physical.
Maybe it‘ll all get milder after menopause🤦🏻♀️
„I’m more interested in my tendency toward limerence at this stage in the game as opposed to getting over a specific case.“
Actually, me too.
„ So when I encourage people to socialise more, preferably without LO present, what I’m really advocating is … taking an interest in the world. The world is bigger than one’s LO. “
True words again:)
Mila says
@Sammy,
By the way, don’t think I didn’t catch the compliment here:)
“ Your description here of how you feel is very eloquent. I imagine that a lot of women can relate. The fact you care about the health of his marriage and his family, as well as your own, speaks volumes about your character i.e. in a good way. 😉”
Thank you, but I’m not sure. Of course I know his wife and family also for years. I have to credit his wife with not showing any jealousy in the face of our friendship and always being lovely to me (although I imagined a little more restrained behavior during the last times we met). What kind of person am I to even contemplate betraying this kind of trust… would have been easier if she wouldn’t behave so impeccably. Also, he himself is kind of naive.
I sometimes feel like the wolf in Little Red Riding Hood or some other villain who has dark plans with an innocent person, to get him over to the dark side or whatever. Sigh.
Sammy says
@Mila.
“It reassures me when you say that limerence seems to lose its sting when you get older.
I‘m waiting for that, actually.
I‘m quite sure that hormonal changes and upheavals play a role in the limerence getting more severe or physical.
Maybe it‘ll all get milder after menopause🤦🏻♀️”
I don’t know if limerence loses its sting as one gets older, strictly speaking. I think limerence for a particular person can maybe hurt less with the passage of time – lots and lots of time. 🤔
I experienced most of my “big limerent upheaval” in my late teens and early 20s. The man I believed to be my LO – I lost him permanently from my life when I was 23. Never really felt angry at him. More like my brain wouldn’t recognise that he was gone. It’s taken me to 40 to feel like I’m completely out of the limerent episode. Now, I can look back and see the situation more objectively.
Some people experience a new limerent episode in their 40s, around midlife, and from the sound of things that experience may be as intense as a limerent episode from an earlier period of life.
Some people experience limerence for the first time in old age.
I don’t really understand the role hormones play in limerence. Technically, I shouldn’t be limerent for anyone at all, since my hormones seem to be all over the map. (Don’t know if I’m Arthur or Martha most days). But it does seem that once the train of obsessive thoughts is set in motion, it’s very hard to arrest the forward momentum of that train.
I don’t even think my LO “led me on” anymore. I just think he was someone who had a seemingly magical personality, and I just hooked into that personality, because it made me feel so good – for a time. However, I think my brain was also scrambling for an LO, any LO, before I met LO, and he just happened to fit the bill.
In other words, I was primed/ready to fall into limerence with somebody. I think limerence is just a “strong mating drive” some people have, nothing to do with childhood trauma or attachment styles. And my LO was just the first shiny unicorn on the scene. 😉
Sammy says
@Mila.
“By the way, don’t think I didn’t catch the compliment here:)”
Yes. That was a compliment. Well-spotted! 😉
“I sometimes feel like the wolf in Little Red Riding Hood or some other villain who has dark plans with an innocent person, to get him over to the dark side or whatever. Sigh.”
Don’t be too hard on yourself. Limerence is mostly taking place inside our heads. And limerence increases one’s anxiety to a level where perhaps one erroneously believes one is bad, one has done bad things already, or one would very much like to do bad things in the future. The old conscience does very much get a work-out!! 😆
While I was struggling with limerence, I read the detective novel “Sad Cypress” by Agatha Christie, and I very much identified with the main character – an incredibly kind and gentle woman who ended up believing she was guilty of crime because her mind started tricking her into thinking that all the evidence pointed her way. 🙄
Sometimes, in limerence, we’re not necessarily the accused, or the guilty party. But we’re always the judge and the jury! 😉
Snowphoenix says
@sammy, @Mila
Like Sammy, I socialize much less (or zero) during LE, I could feel full or even ecstatic just to fantasy the Phantom and ideal interactions with him despite his absence. Now, one sign of my LE recovery is that I can enjoy more chitchats with other people w/o the Phantom constantly in my mind. I also occasionally see LO #5 (2 or 3 times a year) to catch up with all sorts of discussions on updated worldly events — still no glimmer on both sides.
Mila: if I were in your shoe, I would also want to be around LO as much as possible. Unlike you, my LO is not a close friend on surface (still don’t know a Sensor’s wanton mind). We can chitchat freely and comfortably in shared public space, but I try to avoid social-professional gatherings. While other colleagues and LO were present at the same, my whole neuro-system was more “on fire”, I worried excessively that others would detect my limerence for him — I can’t help with my eyes. There are already some whispering rumors/gossips and hostile/jealous looks, which I could strongly detect from others’ facial expressions and subtle curiosity; I hate unwanted attentions.
In our limerent mind, to be with LO at all cost is never “wasting time”; while in reality, we have “wasted” so much precious time and energy that would be utilized to pursue a more “purposeful life”. *sigh*
Sammy says
“In our limerent mind, to be with LO at all cost is never “wasting time”; while in reality, we have “wasted” so much precious time and energy that would be utilized to pursue a more “purposeful life”. *sigh*”
@Snowphoenix.
I’ve been thinking more about the emotions possibly underlying my inclination towards limerence, and less about the details of any interaction with any given individual. I think acknowledging the full spectrum of one’s emotions might be the key to dissolving an (unwanted) obsessive attachment. 🤔
I think the emotions underlying limerence for me are … a desire to be loved, a desire to be comforted, a desire for someone to help me manage my emotions when I’m upset, a desire for someone to acknowledge my emotions when I’m upset, a desire for physical affection that is not necessarily sexual, a desire to be held.
All these emotions, at least for me, seem to stem from unmet early childhood needs, and don’t relate very much to pair-bonding/romantic love at all.
I think I see in my mind’s eye a precious little boy who just wanted to be cherished by his mother and father, a precious little boy who enjoyed physical affection and wanted to be hugged and kissed a lot, a precious little boy who had big emotions and needed a bit of help in learning to regulate those big emotions. A little boy who was ignored and/or humiliated when he did express himself.
Unfortunately, as a developing child, I didn’t get emotional support from caregivers. My parents didn’t acknowledge my emotions as valid, or teach me how to regulate them in an appropriate way. My parents weren’t amused by my mistakes, as normal parents would be, while modelling a better way to handle something. I never learnt to self-soothe, as they say in self-help circles. I was mostly punished for showing emotion, and so I sort of repressed everything until I sort of broke down in my mid-teens i.e. fell into limerence.
I think the limerence-related anger I ‘ve felt in the past is really anger directed at neglectful early caregivers i.e. “How dare you be unresponsive to my needs!”
I think I’m prone to limerence in part due to a fear of being vulnerable, because as a child I learn from my caregivers that being vulnerable wasn’t safe. My parents weren’t going to nurture me if I expressed vulnerability. It was futile to show pain/sadness/distress.
I think I’ve fixated on four or maybe five different men in my life, and all of those men were somewhat kind-hearted. But none of those men could be the ideal parent I was looking for, the ideal parent who could compensate me for all the needs I didn’t get met in childhood.
I know attachment wounds don’t explain limerence for everyone. But in my own case, certainty, I can see a very strong link between limerence and attachment wounds. I think limerence for me was trying to find one absolutely safe person to whom I could attach and then detach. (In other words, I was looking for a symbolic mother who could help me complete some important developmental step).
Mila says
Snowphoenix
„if I were in your shoe, I would also want to be around LO as much as possible.“
Actually I‘m torn between wanting to und not wanting. Because, to say it bluntly, to be with him means to be close but not to be able to touch him. Which is kind of hard for me at the moment, I have a very physical craving for him.
I should be grateful to have so much but I always want more. Why can I not be content with being good or even best friends?
I should really learn that I cannot have it all.
I feel greedy, childish and ungrateful, when I read all your stories here.
(Please, nobody reassure me that I‘m not. I know that I am and working on it).
Snowphoenix says
@Mila,
I just wanted to look at LO’s eyes and feel the vibe; so being around LO did not require much of my stoic willpower to control underline drives, Strange, I rarely had an urge to physically touch…. In my fantasies, yes.
With cptsd, I often felt like living in another’s body in public — uncomfortable, nervous, alienated, or even numb. Sammy probably knows what I’m talking about here.
With limerence, I wished emotional reciprocation, which I believed could be perceived through LO’s eyes, facial expressions, or careful chosen words…. All illusions! Thus mental activities hijacked bodily sensations.
I also don’t care much about to “have it all”; I had “have it all” before, but did not feel fulfilled. The more I craved for something EXTERNAL beforehand, the more disappointed when I got it. My own imagination, creativity and productivity — no matter how small, gratify my Self most.
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
“I think acknowledging the full spectrum of one’s emotions might be the key to dissolving an (unwanted) obsessive attachment. “
That’s what I have been doing even before I got on LwL; I tried to recall all my emotional states and circumstances/environmental adversities around the time my limerence took place. As my earlier messages in July pointed out that my emotions underlying limerence for me is cptsd, the profound attachment wound (bonding especially with Mother ) inflected by Narc Mom, the culture and society….
“I think the emotions underlying limerence for me are … a desire to be loved, a desire to be comforted, a desire for someone to help me manage my emotions when I’m upset, a desire for someone to acknowledge my emotions when I’m upset, a desire for physical affection that is not necessarily sexual, a desire to be held.”
Have you somehow zoomed into my brain— you just said exactly everything I would have said, not so eloquently, though. I previously said I was looking for a surrogate Parent — more of a maternal parent in men, motherly-LO — thus strong femininity in men, not much masculinity. Also in physical intimacy with LOs, my back wanted to be held most so I could feel safe “at home”. When young, I spent more time in daycare and weekcare, and never felt “at home” at my parents’ home. My COO was no-touch/hug, no-praise (possibly encouraging excessive pride in kids), no verbal expressions of affection, no tears, even for girls!
“All these emotions, at least for me, seem to stem from unmet early childhood needs, and don’t relate very much to pair-bonding/romantic love at all. I think I see in my mind’s eye a precious little boy who just wanted to be cherished by his mother and father, a precious little boy who enjoyed physical affection and wanted to be hugged and kissed a lot, a precious little boy who had big emotions and needed a bit of help in learning to regulate those big emotions. A little boy who was ignored and/or humiliated when he did express himself.”
Just change “boy” in the paragraph to “girl”, you would have the picture of my childhood. Up to this date, I don’t remember any loving kisses on forehead or affectionate hugs from my parents. At least, you have two sisters; I have NO siblings and begged to death, in vain. Yet, Mom had 3 abortions after me (lucky to be the first). Picture a life of Cinderella with her stepmother, without two stepsisters but frequent unwarned slaps on her face from 10-15, if doing dishes or other household chore was delayed for 10 minutes…
I’m prone to limerence because unconsciously I was looking for a missing ideal “mother” in LO and other female friends. Aside from 2 Narc LOs (Instinctively I didn’t glimmer at them), all other LOs “appeared” sweet, soft-spoken, patient-eared, tolerant/indulging, understanding…
Only this time, I felt more repeating an old pattern of looking for a parent in LO, so I observed my mental states by keeping a “emotional journal” and clearly realized that communicating with LO in person or writing instantly took out the 6 yrs old of me from within! This revelation is further confirmed by Crappy Childhood Fairy and LwL.
Needless to repeat your realization — “none of those men could be the ideal parent I was looking for, the ideal parent who could compensate me for all the needs I didn’t get met in childhood.” Looking back, No LOs or even semi-gods could meet my childhood unmet needs!
“I think limerence for me was trying to find one absolutely safe person to whom I could attach and then detach. (In other words, I was looking for a symbolic mother who could help me complete some important developmental step).”
For me, , I’m not sure I would emotionally detach from that “safe person”, although intellectually I know I’ll have to make up “some important developmental steps” on my own. NO one, absolutely No One else could substitute that “ideal parent” for us, since we no longer stand in “the same river.” — we are no longer that kid!
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“My COO was no-touch/hug, no-praise (possibly encouraging excessive pride in kids), no verbal expressions of affection, no tears, even for girls!”
It’s extraordinary that this is the cultural norm in so many places. I don’t think parents should spoil their offspring, or anything like that, but I’m not sure how people “bond” successfully if emotions remain strictly off-limits? I think feelings are the lifeblood of all relationships.
This is probably my biggest criticism of my family of origin – we were “close” and spent heaps of time together, but there seemed to be little real bonding ever taking place between husband and wife, mother and child. (There was some bonding amongst the children in the family. My father and younger sister established a close tie). Something was preventing genuine bonding from taking place…
“Have you somehow zoomed into my brain— you just said exactly everything I would have said, not so eloquently, though. I previously said I was looking for a surrogate Parent — more of a maternal parent in men, motherly-LO — thus strong femininity in men, not much masculinity.”
In my family of origin, my father worked full-time and my mother stayed home. So, from the outside, it looked like normal gender roles were being practised. However, I think my mother occupied the “father” role in the family and my father occupied the “mother” role in the family, which might be the cause of my sexual confusion.
My father was the much softer parent. Based on my early life experiences, I equate men with nurturing and women not so much. My mother can’t empathise at all; everything for her is about image, appearance, how something looks. The image of “perfect family life” was/is much more important to her than being part of a family.
“I’m prone to limerence because unconsciously I was looking for a missing ideal “mother” in LO and other female friends. Aside from 2 Narc LOs (Instinctively I didn’t glimmer at them), all other LOs “appeared” sweet, soft-spoken, patient-eared, tolerant/indulging, understanding…”
I think “falling in love” is completely natural, and shouldn’t be pathologised in any way. However, I think “falling in love” should also be seen as quite an ordinary part of life – a little bit of excitement, a little bit of anxiety, but not too much of either.
Limerence is sort of “too much excitement” and “too much anxiety” – at least to my evolving way of thinking. The reaction is just too intense. Falling in love should feel like a natural thing to do in life.
I agree that gentle, easy-going people do make lovely LOs! The only trouble is that such people have their own busy lives to lead! 😉
C for cat says
I’m only just realising now how I was taught as a child that emotions, and especially expressing them, was bad. My therapist who I’ve just started to see asked about it and I realised I was always told not to cry (I did and still do a lot but I felt I had to hold it in as much as I could), not to ‘be silly’ and everything was very much ‘stiff upper lip’ and feelings not recognised. Apart from anger. Lots of arguments and tension. My parents were amazing in a lot of ways, and I’m very lucky, but this is an area where they were not (and still fail to be) helpful.
I wonder if that’s why I love acting so much; it gives me an outlet to be someone else and express strong emotions.
MJ says
Excellent Cat, sounds like you are off to a great start. It seems like you’re in a better place today.
It’s probably correct to assume that is why you love acting. Having that inner aggression and being able to act your feelings out by being somebody else, I’m sure is huge burden lifter. Get past some of your Demons and try out for the next play that comes along. Don’t give up something you love.
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
“but I’m not sure how people “bond” successfully if emotions remain strictly off-limits? I think feelings are the lifeblood of all relationships.”
There is little substantial emotional bonding between people from my COO, based on general western standards; I befriend with many males peers, but do not date them. I know the culture too well and couldn’t help criticize it, while almost all of them defend it.
“I think my mother occupied the “father” role in the family and my father occupied the “mother” role in the family, which might be the cause of my sexual confusion.”
Both my parents worked full-time, Mom busier than Dad. Father cooked more, took care of all family’s logistic matters, while headed his department and taught graduate students. Being tired all the time, Mom did minimum household work and often escaped into her books while Dad and I were still “household working”. On the surface, Dad (also ocd) was the “master” of the house, but Mom passive-aggressively manipulated him. Dad was opmistic, soft, fair, and funny, Mom was extremely pessimistic, unable to even empathize herself — very insecure inside, totally depending on Dad outside her work, yet disloyal to him…. Still the image of a “perfect family” was the most important to both of them, thus I had to be molded into a “perfect child!” 😖 I would faint if I see flowing blood, so naturally followed Dad’s footprint.
“I think “falling in love” is completely natural, and shouldn’t be pathologised in any way. However, I think “falling in love” should also be seen as quite an ordinary part of life – a little bit of excitement, a little bit of anxiety, but not too much of either.”
Growing up with undiagnosed, unrealized cptsd, I don’t think I knew any difference between “falling in love” and “fall in limerence”. It was either nothing, or volcano. Any male who could kindly, gently, accidentally provide me some perceived motherly affections, something more than Mom + Dad ever did give, I was just immediately, automatically attached to him, wishing to give anything I could, without knowing how “properly”. Every LO came into my life like a saving star, even those Narcs in disguise!
I believe, without treating cptsd and substantially healing from the profound attachment wounds, we would be doomed to live in a perpetual “dire” situation, no matter how cool and strong we look like on the surface. I’m still battling with my cptsd symptoms everyday with painful awareness and necessary meditations: while not effective— falling in sleep; mildly effective — feeling less melancholy or peaceful; highly effective — becoming giddy or high for no reasons.
“Limerence is sort of “too much excitement” and “too much anxiety” – at least to my evolving way of thinking. The reaction is just too intense. Falling in love should feel like a natural thing to do in life.”
For us who have unhealed cptsd, falling in love is always like falling into limerence, because we are subconsciously, neurochemically tricked to believe that our volcanic limerent passion, aroused by this rescue LO, could finally pull us out from our original, familial “dire pit.”
Dr.L’s hard copy book will arrive tomorrow.
Snowphoenix says
Correction: “Any glimmered LO who could kindly, gently, accidentally provide me….”
Sammy says
“I believe, without treating cptsd and substantially healing from the profound attachment wounds, we would be doomed to live in a perpetual “dire” situation, no matter how cool and strong we look like on the surface. I’m still battling with my cptsd symptoms everyday with painful awareness and necessary meditations: while not effective— falling in sleep; mildly effective — feeling less melancholy or peaceful; highly effective — becoming giddy or high for no reasons.”
@Snowphoenix.
I think most people who grow up with at least one narcissistic parent end up with cptsd, or some form of severe anxiety…
I think the human body’s default state should probably be “relaxed”. But children who grew up in chaotic homes are unaware that feeling relaxed is normal, and most normal adults feel relaxed most of the time. I.e. one should only feel anxious in the face of real danger. Anxiety should never be a constant or default state of being. 😉
I think my general level of physiological arousal has been too high all my life, and it’s only just now that it’s starting to come down to what I think are closer-to-normal levels.
I think if a child has some episode in their life where they feel intensely anxious, (for me, this was probably the thought of having to go to preschool/school) and they don’t learn an effective way to deal with that anxiety, the anxiety will snowball. 🤔
Sammy says
“I wonder if that’s why I love acting so much; it gives me an outlet to be someone else and express strong emotions.”
@ C for cat.
I enjoyed the odd bit of acting in high school. One year, I played Launcelot Gobbo, the jester from “The Merchant of Venice”.
I did the speech where he has an angel sitting on one shoulder and a devil sitting on the other shoulder, and the angel and the devil are bickering with each other comedically about which is the right choice to make. My peers greatly enjoyed my performance.
If I recall correctly, I played the angel as a female and the devil as a male. (Very stereotypical of me, I know). It wasn’t really acting for me – I’ve always felt morally conflicted about most things! 😆
C for cat says
Thanks MJ, I am in a better place in terms of starting to deal with things that have plagued my life for so many years, but rather cruelly am also in one of the worst episodes of depression I’ve ever had. Just hanging on in there until I can function around people again!
Sammy – that sounds a fun part. I’ve done a lot of Shakespeare and absolutely love it, but never the Merchant of Venice.
Snowphoenix says
“I think most people who grow up with at least one narcissistic parent end up with cptsd, or some form of severe anxiety…” @Sammy
Children grow up with a Narc/narc parent would also be prone to be narcissistic themselves because they’re pre-exposed to such conditions and behaviors. Along with other environmental factors, I have 35% narc traits, which is not all detrimental, e.g healthy pride, willpower to carry through tasks….
“I think the human body’s default state should probably be “relaxed”. But children who grew up in chaotic homes are unaware that feeling relaxed is normal, and most normal adults feel relaxed most of the time. I.e. one should only feel anxious in the face of real danger. Anxiety should never be a constant or default state of being. 😉”
I agree with you. Since I was not at home the most of time during childhood (stayed at daycare or weekcare), I didn’t know what relaxation would feel like (I felt it with Granny from 2.5-4; then 7-7.5). It was so lonely and painful that I must have somehow developed skills to daydream/ fantasy and totally believe in them, thus setting up a foundation for an ideal limerence down the road — direct and play all characters in the head, and let them to fulfill whatever I needed and desired. The outside would was shut down, and I “lived” in a glass jar with eating, sleeping, and household chores. Later, I found I was out of touch with reality the most of time, no matter in which social groups, always feeling awkward and unfit.
With perfectionism in both parents, my default was “doing”, not “being”; couldn’t feel relaxed without feeling bored. I felt a need to constantly check if something needed to be done and to be done “perfectly.” I could not guilty-freely enjoy a book because it was considered as a waste of time — not actively producing anything. If no chores or books around, I would really feel unreasonable anxious — I must have forgotten something or something bad was going to happen — Mom had catastrophisized most matters under the sun at dinner table and always spoken with the certainty of a Supreme Court judge. I think my OCD was gradually cultivated under my parents’ nagging and critical eyes, though Dad was much laidback, without weaving “a surgical knife” in his hand!
“I think if a child has some episode in their life where they feel intensely anxious, (for me, this was probably the thought of having to go to preschool/school) and they don’t learn an effective way to deal with that anxiety, the anxiety will snowball.”
My intense anxiety or pain was to spend all day or all week at that day/week care center — there was no way out! Thus the perpetual fear of being “abandoned” — always dropped and picked up by Dad (not once by Mom). Nowadays, I can recognize such feelings arising with ordinary matters — I’d feel “abandoned”:
1. if I stayed in an empty office (shared by several) or classroom for longer than 10 minutes, while I could stay comfortably in my own office or home as long as I wish.
2. If my visitors left the town for their home or my students graduated for a new life in the world.
3. If LO left the office premises earlier than I did — my legs literally got temporarily weak, which could last from o.5-2 hours.
As my self-awareness increases and my meditation positively affects, I hope my cptsd’s symptoms could continue being reduced or at least weakened. I so want to feel relaxed without any sense of guilt, boredom or aimless anticipation.
Sammy says
“With perfectionism in both parents, my default was “doing”, not “being”; couldn’t feel relaxed without feeling bored. I felt a need to constantly check if something needed to be done and to be done “perfectly.” I could not guilty-freely enjoy a book because it was considered as a waste of time — not actively producing anything.”
@Snowphoenix.
I think people with difficult childhoods might always be looking for external validation. I.e. “Should i do this? Is this the right thing to do? Someone tell me what to do!”
I think, once we reach a certain age as humans, there isn’t really a right thing to do in some situations. E.g. there’s no “right job”. There are only jobs. Perhaps there is no right mate. Maybe there’s only a variety of people one could potentially marry.
At some point, human beings have to do things because they get intrinsic enjoyment from the doing.
Here’s a fun example. Let’s say there’s a person with a talent for painting. Should that person paint because they love painting? Or should they only paint in order to win a painting prize, and give up painting in disgust if the prize they want consistently goes to somebody else?
If someone gives up painting because they didn’t win the big prize, does that mean they don’t really love painting for painting’s sake? 🤔
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
“I think people with difficult childhoods might always be looking for external validation. I.e. “Should i do this? Is this the right thing to do? Someone tell me what to do!”
You nailed the issue here! Examining back, I found almost all endeavors, big or small, I pursued was to (in)directly get some “external validation” whether real or imagined. Even when I rebelled against the system or parental authority, I did not do for myself, but for the sake of rebelling against something, gaining a false power.
My daily challenge lies in to feel at ease or at home when there isn’t significant goals to chase after, and can enjoy leisure reading or watcg artsy movies without feeling guilty — a life-time habit to change. I rarely watch any TV or Netflix, because my mind hammers me that it’s wasting precious time, although I don’t know what I could “produce” during those precious time, that could better the world and the whole humanity!
Nowadays, my meditation is a means to quiet down my restlessness.
“I think, once we reach a certain age as humans, there isn’t really a right thing to do in some situations. E.g. there’s no “right job”. There are only jobs. Perhaps there is no right mate. Maybe there’s only a variety of people one could potentially marry.”
Totally agree with you here! There isn’t “right job” or “right social status”, “right population”, and “right person” to marry. It all comes back to Socratic big quest: Know Thy Self” and then find what’s working or not with this Self — Jungian individuation.
Ideally without economic strains, I think painters, writers, and every creative soul should pursue and devote their energy and talents to whatever their passions lie (passions evolve, of course), for themselves as well as society — fruits of their talents and productivities as beneficial “side effects”. Creating arts for the sake of profit or prize is not my thing…
I love the character in Virginia Woolf’s “To the Lighthouse”– Lili Broscoe, who contently paints with ease, can rationalize art with a male guest, but also can use her so-called feminine side to empathize with Mrs. Ramsay.
Mila says
Sorry , Snowphoenix, what is COO?
Mila says
Ah you mean country of origin, now I get it, sorry
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“We rarely talk about other men except a superficial bit of SOs or dates.”
I talk about the hottie male employees at work with other female employees. Not with every woman, of course, but a couple. We point out when one is physically near us so we can watch him, cruise him, etc. Maybe we’ll message each other: Heads up! 🙂
Snowphoenix says
@marcia,
That’s cool that you could “gossip” about male hotties, that’s a ticklish distraction! 😋 Around my environment, it’s inappropriate to chitchat about single males or females besides their professional performance and occasionally personality issues. My lip is zipped about my embarrassing, lingering LE to anyone around me, which caused my short breath sometimes.
As you posted previously, adult women in my circle rarely chitchatted about makeup stuff or even outfit, what’s in them to discuss or debate ?! We do talk about how to cook some ethnic speciality food.
I have scanned over some of your orders posts in some older blogs, which has spiraled my brain-drilling sometimes… but I didn’t want to follow two-year old posts — we all change and evolve. So let’s focus here and now, and try to spin LE out of our system soon.
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“Around my environment, it’s inappropriate to chitchat about single males or females”
They’re not all single. We just talk about hotties in general. Although I do talk about them with other single women. The married women don’t seem interested.
“My lip is zipped about my embarrassing, lingering LE to anyone around me, which caused my short breath sometimes.”
I wouldn’t talk about an LE at work, particuarly if my LO worked with us. That’s giving the co-workers too much personal information. I’m talking about what you wrote: a distraction.
“I have scanned over some of your orders posts in some older blogs, which has spiraled my brain-drilling sometimes… but I didn’t want to follow two-year old posts — we all change and evolve. So let’s focus here and now, and try to spin LE out of our system soon.”
Not sure whatyou mean. The LE is out of my system. I’m just in “all shields up,” preventative mode now. 🙂
Limerent Emeritus says
Marcia,
” I’m just in “all shields up,” preventative mode now. 🙂”
Too bad you don’t click links…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4srq5hi0XA – “Star Trek II, The Wrath of Khan”
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia,
Sorry about my wrong assumption. With limited scanning, I did not know where you (as well many others) are in terms of LE recovery. Being here about 45 days, I also have not finished all older blogs and their commentaries; it’s overwhelming.
Glad to hear that you are a “shielded up” or “weaponized” limerent, congratulations! 👏 I think I might be 75-80% out of limerence. Once I learned and could analyze what LE is all about (I 100% fit the definition and all the symptoms), I was one foot out. Knowledge of science and rationalization, along with physical and spiritual workouts, could KILL puzzling pains or illusional romance. They are a double-bladed sword!
Now almost everyday, I had a hearty laugh at myself for those 14- years old lovestruck acts. My LE looks more comical now, after all that helpless limerence suffering! I’m too embarrassed to even confess to my best gf, and refused to tell my last shrink despite her professional “nosiness.”
Four years ago, I randomly watched a 10-minute video talking about limerence and immediately decided I could not have such a ridiculous “love sickness”…. Now I feel very lucky to have stumbled into LwL, frankly chatted with fellow limerent “ghosts”, discovered more about myself, and been inching my way out…. 🙂
I’m more hopeful now.
Snowphoenix says
Life is a comedy to those who think, a tragedy to those who feel.”
― Jean Racine
“Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but comedy in long-shot”.
— Charlie Chaplin
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
Those are two very interesting quotes.
I used to think life was a comedy, and prided myself on my ability to laugh at things. Now, I think I was reacting with the callousness of youth to other people’s misfortunes. As one grows older, one acquires more compassion perhaps. So now I think some acknowledgement of the tragic side of life is appropriate…
Limerence can be tragic, for example, because someone might pour a lot of time and energy into a particular relationship that never gets off the ground, and that time and energy can’t be spent on other things or other relationships. 🤔
Snowphoenix says
“I used to think life was a comedy, and prided myself on my ability to laugh at things. Now, I think I was reacting with the callousness of youth to other people’s misfortunes. As one grows older, one acquires more compassion perhaps. So now I think some acknowledgement of the tragic side of life is appropriate…
@Sammy
I’m opposite of you: all my childhood and youth, I thought life as a tragedy (witnessed a lot of tragic events of my own and others). Now looking back in distance, I especially found my limerence experiences comic with epic after epic of melancholy, sad, mourning sentiments, proses, and lyrics…
But I do feel more compassion for others’ suffering as I’m struggling and gradually bringing myself out of my ruminating head. I need more self-compassion instead of endless shame and guilt; If I were more knowledgeable and wiser, I could have avoided so much suffering. I need to strengthening more of my logical thinking.
“Limerence can be tragic, for example, because someone might pour a lot of time and energy into a particular relationship that never gets off the ground, and that time and energy can’t be spent on other things or other relationships. 🤔”
My limerence fits your description PERFECTLY, and I’m not out of it yet. I still see and chitchat with LO regularly (although he looks much less “shinny” than before), just feeing much, much less nervous or wondering, and able to authentically enjoy our public, limited, superficial interactions there and then — I can never make an enemy out of him, a leading-on Sensor or not — that’s his own business.
When we chat, the previous 6 years seems to have never existed, how surreal! If I catch myself slipping into daydreaming or rumination later, I go into my meditation literally in a second — the only requirement is to shut my eyes.
I want to experiment if I can keep limerence’s moderate or high sensations, while using my cocktail meditation to reduce any pain of its “low”. I do find that any hope of impossibles brings a subtle pain or a deep “sigh”, while an effective meditation could bring me euphoria without anything changed realistically in the matter. How mysterious!
MJ says
@Cordelia,
Sorry for the late reply back. It’s been a mother of a day for me here and it’s about 3am now. I’m ready to finally wind down.
Yes you did read something awhile back that I had posted relating to having no real issues growing up. Other than what could be considered normal bullying from other kids and social awkwardness within myself. I am an only child, so I guess it comes with the territory. My Father always taught me that Girls are much easier to talk to than Boys. At the time, I didn’t believe it. But that was about all the education I got from him about Girls. Basically he always told me not to be afraid. Didn’t matter. I was shy. Still am to this day. But over time I have come to see that he was correct. Because when I do connect with a Woman, it is really easy once the vibe feels right. Mainly I have always had to teach myself how to communicate better to others.
As for LO connecting with my Daughter, that would be a dream come true. Both LO and my Daughter are blondes. My Daughter is all into fashion and having perfect nails and getting her hair colored and frosted (Just like LO). I always like to picture them hanging out, going shopping together, getting their nails done, and yes, hoping LO would humanize me again to my Daughter. There’s like only an 11 year age difference between them. She could be like a cool big sister to her and I would love to see them get along.
LO also does hair extensions, hair coloring, and lash extensions as a side gig after work. She does it out of her house. I could totally see my Daughter adoring that and having LO doll her up before a big date. She would love that and it would warm my heart. But alas, it’s just part of the fantasy I have in my sick and twisted mind. Nothing more. But its a beautiful thought I would love to see become reality.
The last Therapist did give me some suggestions when they rejected me this last time, so I wasn’t left high and dry. Thing is they suggested the local nut house around here. (Literally, no joke, it has always been referred to as that) and the other suggestion was the same Counselor my Daughter is going to. So that’s out. It’s like I just can’t believe I’m that complex and the Therapists around here are that ignorant. I feel offended, but I do work in a Big City and about 15 miles north is downtown. I’ve already done some online searching but I have to read up some more about them and then hopefully make a contact where scheduling will not conflict with work. I will keep you posted if I need your suggestions again. Or I’ll try to look them up in the blogs. May have to really consider it, but the Therapists I’m searching do know something about limerence according to their webpage, so my fingers are crossed.
Thanks again for your help and support Cheerleader. Don’t be a Stranger.. 😊🤗💖
MJ says
@Cordelia,
You may be on to something there. Not entirely sure. I know that in rumination, I can go the romantic route. Often at night, I hold a pillow next to me and pretend It’s LO I’m holding close and cuddling with.
Over time I have always kind of considered that LO in some way, must be my do-over Girl.
She is 28 and almost the same age as my Wife was when we married years ago. I made plenty of mistakes and for the longest time wanted to make up for it. Even after divorce. Never getting that chance.
Going through the whole midlife drama now has me thinking that I’m not getting any younger. I get anxious I will never see or ever possibly be with another Woman as incredible as LO. There is a great anxiety I get when I feel like time is running out. Ultimately that can even bring me to tears.
With LO, I guess I was banking on something wonderful coming out of it. A potential good relationship with LO and my Daughter would be icing on the cake. I’m not sure how I would bring that into play though, other than just coming right out and asking LO if she’d like to color my Daughters hair. I’d almost hate to open up with something like that. Not even sure if having kids is even in her remote future. Thinking how could she want me in a capacity like that if she doesn’t even like/want kids? Guess it’s 50/50. Won’t know until I ask.
You can just put that 250 on my tab. Because I know I’ll need some more of that Good Dr. Cordelia advice in the future.. 😉💖
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“My LE looks more comical now, after all that helpless limerence suffering! I’m too embarrassed to even confess to my best gf, and refused to tell my last shrink despite her professional “nosiness.””
I don’t think you need to be embarrassed. You’re working on the limerence; you’re making progress. But a word of caution about friends: they can be very unsupportive or look at you blankly after you tell them about an LO. And my therapist knew nothing about limerence. Like you, I stumbled on this site and had to kind of cure myself. Although my therapsit did point out a few things my LO was doing to lead me on and how little was going on between us. And that did help a bit. But I was so deep in the middle of the LE, I don’t know how well I heard it at the time.
Adam says
After much thought my wife is correct. At the least I need an extended break from here. At the best, a goodbye. I hate goodbyes. Hate them. I’ve had to do too many in recent years. Friends, family, acquaintances …. and now here.
These two songs always soothed me for some reason. My folks had the 45 of it (yeah I am that old. also remember 8-tracks) and I listened to it a lot. It was on a huge cabinet record player that sat in the living room that was larger than today’s cars. My mother would often comment how much I played it. It’s on a loop on youtube now as I post this.
The Last Farewell/Paradise — Roger Whittacker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbjGtFnzWvg
There are numerous people on this site, including Dr L, that words can’t even begin to explain how much you have done for me. It will sound cliché but there are so many and I am sorry that there are a few to mention by name. Ah to hell with it. I fell the need to be overly dramatic and emotional. (And I am sober, so that’s a helluva a compliment. Though I am on my way not to being.)
I am going to make an attempt at this …. with much more editing as this post goes on as my memory feeds me …. ladies first …. Allie, Cordillia, Marcia, Miss Lovisa, Summer, Limmy (and all her username variations lol). Vikkie, Sammy, C4Cat, Mila, Snowphoneix, ABCD, Nisor, IMHO, Emma …. my ladies I apologize if I forgot you. This old man is not what he use to be.
Now for my brothers from another mother …. L.E. … thank you. Your help has been indelible. You are LwL’s Vulcan. Speedwagon, Lost In Space, MJ, Dr. L, rufio, frederico, Jason M ….
I remember and thank you all for my recovery. You have no idea how much you have helped. In case this is a final post I wish to talk to three people here. I really don’t want to single out people but in the event this is the last you hear from me I don’t want regrets. I already have plenty of them in this stupid mid life $hit I am going through now.
Miss Lovisa and Marcia
When Mother let me put sugar with my Cheerios and when she wouldn’t….Miss Lovisa you were the first person to respond to me. Your sweet words helped me understand what I was going through to start. It helped me have the courage to confront my wife about my limerence. You are indelibly the most intricate person, as a commenter, to understanding and accepting what Dr L has researched and shared here. I would have never been more accepting of my condition if it weren’t for you sweet words Miss Lovisa. I wish that you hadn’t left. You have an amazing ability to touch people with your words. God has blessed you with the ability to reach people’s hearts. I will forever be indebted to you Miss Lovisa. I hope that you are your family are well. And I wish you the best in everything God and life have in store for you.
Marcia …. I remember when you were just done with me when you found out LO was younger than me. I remember that conversation very well. It’s burned into my brain to remind me what my wife felt seeing me give my eyes and attention to a much younger woman. It made me think how hurtful I was to her. I very much appreciate your candid responses early on. They seemed harsh then but when I go back and read them later I thank you for it. You, like Momma, don’t pull any punches and say what needs to be said. You and Miss Lovisa are the two sides of the same coin I am so glad to have found. If this be it Marcia, I wish you the best in life.
MJ
I want to share a short (I am going to try and make it so) story with you. Back in my younger days, I grew into those years with my best friend. I had a huge crush on my best friend’s older sister. I never said anything. He was my best friend. She was his sister. I quashed all my feelings for her. Don’t do that MJ. You have a chance with LO. If you feel the “friend” she is with is more than that than I understand not intervening. But don’t loose this chance otherwise. I understand rejection. There was a young lady I was so enamored with before my wife and I took the chance and she wasn’t interested. It killed me. But I knew. She was for the most part straight forward and there was no doubt. Take that chance MJ. At least you will know one way or another. And nothing would be a greater joy than to come back from a sabbatical to hear you and LO are together.
LO’s name is Morgan
frederico says
Farewell for now, Adam, my noble friend.
Marcia says
Adam,
“If this be it Marcia, I wish you the best in life.”
Wish you the best, too.
I’ll leave you with the words Casey Kasem used to end his weekly radio program: Keep you feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars! (I’m not really sure what that means, but if you are old enough to remember 45s and 8-tracks, you’re old enough to remember Casey Kasem. :))
Snowphoenix says
@Adam,
Thank you for chatting and providing me with your unique insight and perspective on so many things in life.
Farewell for now, and I wish you a great luck and strength in your LE’s total recovery and “new” journey.
MJ says
Adam, thank you for those kind words. I’m flattered you remembered me. I’ve always tried to be myself here in this forum. Trying to bring all my failings with LO to the table. I still don’t understand why her. Why now? I’ve never felt such intensity for another human being. It’s crazy sick.
Having you here to chat with from time to time, share music with, listen to your stories and basically just identify with you completely, how this has all been a life altering experience, has helped me put things into better perspective about it. I like to think my presence and even my own failings have helped you back. Maybe others as well.
As much as our LE’s differ, I know you have always meant well and wished the best for me. These days I’m wallowing in a lot of self pity and I try not to bring too much of that sadness here, as I’m sure nobody really cares to know about it. I do believe that “Dude” is LOs SO, and I’m really trying to respect that boundary, considering he still works in my building. But it is hard to want to approach her anyway. Even if he wasn’t in the picture, I still highly doubt much would change. But I hear what you are saying. If anything now, I think I really kind of want/need to start with her by apologizing. Perhaps for being so, not owned-up in my efforts to reach her, as I know she knows I was going for it. Try to show her I’m ok and that freaking her out was never my intent. I just wanted it to be a perfect conversation, that eventually would lead to a happily-ever-after. (Or something close to that.) Never say never. Something may be possible. If only a friendship becomes of it, I will be content with that.
I will miss your presence here if you stay away. But hope it will not be for long. I’ve tried not to bring so much hopeful ruminating when I come here but it’s never that easy. For me at least. I try to gauge by seeing where others are in the blogs, by what I post. Sometimes the feelings just come out. I get it. This place can be a blessing and a curse. You though Adam have been a blessing to me.
Never forget that. To me and to many others. I hate good byes myself.
If this really is your last time, I’d like to send you off with a favorite poem of mine, that I like to give to my closest friends when I know they are going away. Possibly never seeing them again. I don’t have to bring it out all that often, but like to have it handy for occasions like this. It can also very much apply to LO’s..
Train of Life
By Jean d’Ormesson
At birth, we boarded the train of life and met our parents,
and we believed that they would always travel by our side.
However, at some station, our parents would step down from the train,
leaving us on life’s journey alone.
As time goes by, some significant people will board the train:
siblings, other children, friends, and even the love of our life.
Many will step down and leave a permanent vacuum.
Others will go so unnoticed that we won’t realize that they vacated their seats!
This train ride has been a mixture of joy, sorrow, fantasy,
expectations, hellos, goodbyes, and farewells.
A successful journey consists of having a good relationship with all passengers,
requiring that we give the best of ourselves.
The mystery that prevails is that we do not know at
which station we ourselves will step down.
Thus, we must try to travel along the track of life in the best possible way –
loving, forgiving, giving, and sharing.
When the time comes for us to step down and leave our seat empty –
we should leave behind beautiful memories for
those who continue to travel on the train of life. Let’s remember to thank our Creator
for giving us life to participate in this journey and to be grateful we have been given such a wonderful gift.
I thank God for you and I thank you for
being one of the passengers on my train.
Your Friend,
MJ. 😉
PS, Thank you also for giving LO a name..
C for cat says
Bye Adam, I hope you and your wife are able to move forward together; it seems you have a lot of reasons to fight for your relationship. Thank you for your support, and good luck.
Call me Cordelia says
To echo everyone else here, thank you for your input. I especially appreciated your honesty from the limerent perspective. It helped me make some difficult but necessary decisions that definitely worked out for the best. I hope you can get back on track with your wife and family. There is clearly a lot of love there!
Sammy says
Wishing you well, Adam. I’m glad if you got something good out of LwL! 😛
Mila says
Adam,
I‘m very honored to read my name there although I didn’t write so much here that could have helped you and don’t know as much about your story as the others.
I think you’ve made a brave and sensible decision and I give you and your wife all my best thoughts and wishes!
I hope very much that all will work out well for you and your family!
Mila says
I know, I said I’d spend less time here.
But now I was curious and read up on Speedwagons story. Which made me realize
1. that my suggestions to him were pretty useless since he tried everything already- low contact, friendly contact, too much contact, and so difficult to find the balance.
2. that I understand what L.E. said about the former discussions being more on point and more intent on solutions to individual LEs compared to philosophical discourses.
3. that it actually does me good to be here, because I stop ruminating about my LO and start thinking about the overall meaning of LEs in my life.
I feel that I (and maybe Speedwagon) don’t need to find the right way to communicate/think with/about LO. I need to find sth in my life that gives me the same feeling of validation and happiness as these LEs.
I know, I know, purposeful living etc, Dr L already said it all…
But it’s still different to really understand it on a personal level, and it’s difficult to really live it or find these elusive occupations that would help me get into this happy purposeful state (I love my job and colleagues, I love my family , I‘m quite healthy etc, no need to drastic changes there).
Someone, I think Marcia, said that she never found sth that gave her the same feeling. Worrying.
frederico says
Mila
I am finding that, after three years, the limerent beast gradually, very gradually, loses strength. That is unless, as I have unwisely done several times, you relent and poke it with a stick. Then it feels great for a couple of days before the beast stirs itself and bites you.
Purposeful living still seems to elude me but any distraction seems to help.
Mila says
Frederico,
Three years for you for one LE, I gather?
I’ve been limerent for different people (including SO) and I agree, yes, after approximately three years a LE begins to flicker and get weaker. (if it doesn’t evolve into a relationship like with my SO).
But this was always the moment another person started to glimmer and I, glad of the distraction, went into the next LE head over heels, in the beginning telling myself all the time that this time I won‘t, it‘s harmless, it‘s just a new friend, whatever..
So the beast is always awake somewhere in the background, for about eight years.
Any distraction helps? Maybe you are right, but I think that works only if the beast is actually already a bit exhausted.
Maybe I should just focus on letting this LE go down in it’s own time and then raise all shields like Marcia and run for the hills if someone glimmers?
Am I capable of that? Pathetically, I don’t know.
But maybe that’s where all the resolve should go.
Mila says
I feel I mixed my metaphors a bit wildly, what with beasts, shields and hills😅
frederico says
Mila
Ha. Well, I started on that metaphor because I rather like the idea of seeing limerence and a LO as different entities.
Yes, my LE has been for the same LO since late 2019. It has consumed me. I am much older than you and I won’t bore you by repeating my convoluted history.
Your final paragraph sounds like a plan because that’s the way I am now looking at things. I don’t feel that confident about it though and I wish I knew all the answers.
Mila says
Frederico,
I didn’t have that glass of wine in the end, because there was no wine in the house🙄
How would you know that you are much older?
2019 doesn’t sound that far away for me, by the way.
I also start to make the difference between limerence and the different persons this „beast“ attached itself to.
I‘m also not that confident about how to approach it. To kill it seems such an time- and energy- wasting effort and maybe without success.
Maybe just let it sleep once it sleeps in my current LE (I‘m waiting for it)and hit it over the head each time it stirs.
Bewitched says
@Mila @federico
I read your comments with interest on how long your LEs lasted – 3+ years you both said? Mine has been going even longer than that, although it has only been at thermonuclear strength (another metaphor :)) over the past 1.5 years. It shows no sign of abating and is probably getting worse, if anything.
This is my first rodeo. I haven’t previously had an LE/LO, probably because there were never any barriers before – each time the issue arose, I was able to explore the glimmer, which either worked out (my current SO), or didn’t. Something else that I seem to share with you Mila.
When I can manage it, concentrating hard on reducing rumination / reverie seems to provide some relief. Distraction doesn’t work for me unless it was something spectacular (and even then I would usually find a way to relate it back to my LO). Distraction only seems to work after I have first reduced the rumination/ reverie.
I hope you are having a better day today.
frederico says
Bewitched
Yes, three years plus for me. I wonder what may be feeding your limerence.
I agree of course that reducing reverie, and then rumination, is important, especially on waking.
After a glass of wine tonight, I am still thinking that we need somehow to be stronger with our resolve. It can be tough.
Bewitched says
@federico, its mutual, so that is feeding it right now.
What originally started it off was one of the most stressful periods of my life (a combination of things, though, importantly not my SO – who has always been wonderful).
I do agree that exploring the why of an LE is useful especially if there are a series of LEs without gaps, like Mila described.
I hope that waking up to another thought (something other than LO) happens more regularly very soon. Less rumination during the previous day might help with that (easier said than done, of course).
Salud
frederico says
Bewitched
Ah, Mutual, now I understand. I empathise, I really do. My, formerly affectionate LO went NC for what I have taken to be very good reasons. It hurts though.
I will think of you tomorrow morning when I banish thos3 intrusive thoughts.
Mila
🥂
I really shouldn’t be posting…..
Serial Limerent says
Sounds like we’re in a similar boat. My latest LO has been happily feeding my LE.
Mila says
@frederico
Now I think I need a glass of wine:)
Mila says
@ Bewitched, I did manage to reply in the wrong place again, sorry, hope you find it…
Bewitched says
@Limerent Emeritus,
I think that many of us seem like we are idling but we are newish to the blog, discovering pearls of wisdom with fresh eyes.
And many are living with a gigantic secret, not disclosed to LO, not disclosed to SO, haven’t spoken about this to another solitary soul.
Don’t be too hard on us, please. I don’t need tough love, the reason I am in this mess is because of tough life sh1t. And middle age.
Also, my LE is teaching me things about how I deal with adversity. Maybe I want to experience this as an opportunity for personal growth. I am not idling. That’s tough to hear.
MJ says
Adam, thank you for those kind words. I’m flattered you remembered me. I’ve always tried to be myself here in this forum. Trying to bring all my failings with LO to the table. I still don’t understand why her. Why now? I’ve never felt such intensity for another human being. It’s crazy sick.
Having you here to chat with from time to time, share music with, listen to your stories and basically just identify with you completely, how this has all been a life altering experience, has helped me put things into better perspective about it. I like to think my presence and even my own failings have helped you back. Maybe others as well.
As much as our LE’s differ, I know you have always meant well and wished the best for me. These days I’m wallowing in a lot of self pity and I try not to bring too much of that sadness here, as I’m sure nobody really cares to know about it. I do believe that “Dude” is LOs SO, and I’m really trying to respect that boundary, considering he still works in my building. But it is hard to want to approach her anyway. Even if he wasn’t in the picture, I still highly doubt much would change. But I hear what you are saying. If anything now, I think I really kind of want/need to start with her by apologizing. Perhaps for being so, not owned-up in my efforts to reach her, as I know she knows I was going for it. Try to show her I’m ok and that freaking her out was never my intent. I just wanted it to be a perfect conversation, that eventually would lead to a happily-ever-after. (Or something close to that.) Never say never. Something may be possible. If only a friendship becomes of it, I will be content with that.
I will miss your presence here if you stay away. But hope it will not be for long. I’ve tried not to bring so much hopeful ruminating when I come here but it’s never that easy. For me at least. I try to gauge by seeing where others are in the blogs, by what I post. Sometimes the feelings just come out. I get it. This place can be a blessing and a curse. You though Adam have been a blessing to me.
Never forget that. To me and to many others. I hate good byes myself.
If this really is your last time, I’d like to send you off with a favorite poem of mine, that I like to give to my closest friends when I know they are going away. Possibly never seeing them again. I don’t have to bring it out all that often, but like to have it handy for occasions like this. It can also very much apply to LO’s..
Train of Life
By Jean d’Ormesson
At birth, we boarded the train of life and met our parents,
and we believed that they would always travel by our side.
However, at some station, our parents would step down from the train,
leaving us on life’s journey alone.
As time goes by, some significant people will board the train:
siblings, other children, friends, and even the love of our life.
Many will step down and leave a permanent vacuum.
Others will go so unnoticed that we won’t realize that they vacated their seats!
This train ride has been a mixture of joy, sorrow, fantasy,
expectations, hellos, goodbyes, and farewells.
A successful journey consists of having a good relationship with all passengers,
requiring that we give the best of ourselves.
The mystery that prevails is that we do not know at
which station we ourselves will step down.
Thus, we must try to travel along the track of life in the best possible way –
loving, forgiving, giving, and sharing.
When the time comes for us to step down and leave our seat empty –
we should leave behind beautiful memories for
those who continue to travel on the train of life. Let’s remember to thank our Creator
for giving us life to participate in this journey and to be grateful we have been given such a wonderful gift.
I thank God for you and I thank you for
being one of the passengers on my train.
Your Friend,
MJ. 😉
PS, Thank you also for giving LO a name..
Mila says
Bewitched,
Sounds like your day was tough?
Sorry to hear that!
I‘m actually not sure what I should call a LE and what not. I always had some crush here and there. But I only count the episodes that caused me real pain and that lasted years. The limerence for my SO developed into love, I‘m not sure if I should count it…
The three LEs (after SO) that I count for myself, yes, they lasted about 3-4 years, I‘d say. But the second one ended because LO left work and town, I‘m not quite sure if I wouldn’t still be limerent if he would have stayed.
So I‘m not that sure of general time frames for LEs, I guess it depends on the context, how much time one actually spends with LO, if he lives nearby etc.
I don’t even know how to concentrate on reducing ruminations without distraction, you seem to know more than me:)
I hope you have a better day tomorrow!!
Bewitched says
@Mila
I found your comment, thank you 🙂
About how to reduce ruminations without using distraction, which I dont find works for me, is fairly unsophisticated. When feeling sick of the same old subject (LO!), what I sometimes try is a fairly abrupt change of subject (mentally) from my default setting. Forcing myself to change the subject. That’s it 🙂
To be honest, I probably do then use distraction, as in mundane (to-do list), more fun (plot of a movie I just watched) thoughts to wash my brain with. Nothing too exciting 🙂
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia
“I don’t think you need to be embarrassed. You’re working on the limerence; you’re making progress. “
That’s what I need to hear repeatedly, thank you. Our LE situations are quite similar in terms that we were tumbling alone in the darkness, not knowing what we were against. Without EA or PA but a weird, perceived “connection” that was neither (unrequited) love, nor substantial friendship, nor sincere colleagueship… we stuck and suffered those unnameable and bizarre highs and lows. My brain, nerves, eyes, ears, tongue, stomach … were all not listening to my logic or willpower during the peek of limerence. 😳
I berated myself so badly for not being strong enough (was indeed sick with the secrete lymphoma’s growth) to walk away and hoovered back for 6 times by a leading-on Sensor LO (mistaken and scolded him for being a Narc 😡) who “came back” repeatedly for a “friendship” between zero and 100%, which pull-n-push precisely feeds limerence! Only if I knew back then…
After coming to LwL and learning that neurochemical is playing a big role, I began to take it easier bit by bit on myself. I’m still working on the lingering guilt and shame, trying to dig out their other possible causes. My bigger battle is cptsd with more symptoms, such as OCD, abandonment melange, procrastination, social timidity, etc.
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“Our LE situations are quite similar in terms that we were tumbling alone in the darkness, not knowing what we were against. Without EA or PA but a weird, perceived “connection” that was neither (unrequited) love, nor substantial friendship, nor sincere colleagueship… ”
That’s a good description. I’d say it was another thing you hit upon–the push/pull dynamic. Some kind of push/pull flirtation that was feeding his narc tendencies.
“I berated myself so badly for not being strong enough (was indeed sick with the secrete lymphoma’s growth).”
I’m sorry you were ill. I hope you are better.
“My bigger battle is cptsd with more symptoms, such as OCD, abandonment melange, procrastination, social timidity, etc.”
I have some of those issues, also. The cptsd, the abandonment issues, OCD. I really like the Crappy Childhood Fairy. Some people don’t like her because she isn’t a trained clinician, but I don’t care. Religion, meditation, medication, psychotherapy, accupuncture, etc. Whatever it is that helps.
She has videos on cptsd and limerence. Pull her up on youtube. I found them to be very helpful. More so than pychotherapy. And a good portion of her work is free!
MJ says
@Marcia,
I 2nd that recommendation. She is very good. Especially for not being trained. I love her videos..
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia
Fortunately, I’m lymphoma free now but sill under regular monitoring. A terrible abandonment melange triggered my worst panic attack in 2019 that might have contributed to the development of thyroid lymphoma (from Hashimoto thyroiditis) ; of course, no doctors could be sure.
I’m regular Crappy Childhood Faire’s follower. 4 years ago, I found her and did a bit of daily practice. Back then she was not as confident, convincing, and consoling as now. During this summer even before finding LwL, I listened to her latest shows (sometimes twice) everyday, and particularly like her analysis (with the red fairy pen marking word by word, line by line) on specific cases, e.g limerence, through which, I also get to learn how a healthy dating would be in those cases. This time, I diligently did the daily practice and after just a couple of weeks, I found I had less and less fears and resentments to write about. Then, I become confident that I will eventually cure my cptsd on my own. It takes time, self-awareness, and practice. Comfortably socializing is the toughest for me.
Like you, I don’t care so much about “experts’” titles and trainings (my Ph.D psychoanalyst worsened my cptsd with her cruel methods). Empirical approaches is more important than theories to me. I’ll experiment whatever could possibly work for my system — no two people’s systems are alike. Depending on myself, through continuous learning and skills training at my own pace is the most effective and reliable way so far.
@MJ: I’m glad that you also like Crappy Childhood Mother, whose tough love and sincerely caring tone of speaking touch me. I also follow her advice, not to dwell on cptsd or limerence itself (the past or ongoing stories, symptoms, etc.), which could reinforce their symptoms and affects in my head. After all, I have cptsd, am NOT cptsd; I have had limerence, am NOT limerence.
Nowadays, I treat my symptoms without questioning why or how: just meditate (20-40 min. ) the first thing in the morning after opening my eyes, and the last before closing them at night. 1-2 shorter sessions in the middle of day if I feel my neurons/nerves are “agitated” for whatever reasons.
Hope you continue feeling better everyday!
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia @ MJ
https://youtu.be/SKUpJfVf5Jg?si=tPfU5aK2sY4jqRql
Just came out one day ago about Limerence by Crappy Childhood Fairy.
Nisor says
Sammy,
I felt such a pain in my heart to see your text of September 6, where you write that ‘ the underlying limerence emotions (yours) seem to
stem from unmet early childhood needs.’ I can’t hardly begin to understand the pain as you start to describe your early childhood. The desire to be loved, comforted, understood etc. wow! That precious little boy wanted to be cherished by his mom and dad! Isn’t that’s what all little children want? I don’t understand how can one not be pulled to caress and hug and kiss and squeeze a little child! Such a bundle of joy! It’s unbelievable that some moms don’t get carried away to love and cherish their children. All that little children want is to be loved and be accepted. Some women should admit they’re not fit to handle children. Anybody can have a child, rearing it is a different story. It takes love and dedication, sleepless nights…
Me, I became a mother by choice. I wanted to be a wife and a mother and I wanted to stay home to care for my children. I gave up my career to be with my children, to love them and to enjoy them, watch over them. And I told my SO from the very beginning. We agreed. You see, not everyone is prepared to make sacrifices for their children and marriage. I took into consideration and reflected on the importance of being a good parent. I read books to get informed. I wanted my children to be healthy physically and mentally. The pediatrician used to call me ‘the worried mom.’ But he said that it was good I was like that because many mothers come for help a little too late. I was continuously at school, checking on them and the teachers. They liked that. My children attended private schools. The principal told me many parents don’t bother to come not even once! I gathered my children’s peers at home many times, they felt free to come home and tell me their problems. Many still ask my son about me when they talk.
I asked my son recently to forgive me for sometimes being harsh with him when small. He coyly said ‘and what will you give me for that?’ I said a’a Lot of kisses and hugs’. We have a great relationship!
These childhood traumas can complicate relationships when one becomes an adult. It can ruin your entire life if not dealt with properly and on time. I had a more or less beautiful childhood but my dad was absent for work most of the time. I needed his love and protection. It felt like a lack of commitment with the family. I don’t know if that’s what I was looking for with my lo, commitment …. Maybe it was.
My So fulfills all those needs.
I notice that Snow has some of the same problems, and perhaps many other limerents also. If only we were near and capable of hugging one another, cry over our afflictions together and cheering up each other, life would be more pleasant for all. Love is the most wanted and needed commodity right now for all of us. What can I say. Life is not fair, not fair at all. But we pick up all the pieces and start a new day full of illusions and hopes . Like Scarlet O’Hara said: “ tomorrow is another day! “(movie Gone with the wind)
Cheer up and hugs for you and Snow.
Limerent Emeritus says
“These childhood traumas can complicate relationships when one becomes an adult.”
That’s putting it mildly…
“This adult child will go through life feeling dependent on verbal validation and confirmation from others. From infancy onward, he’s lacked vital supplies of affection and praise, from which he would have learned beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he was valuable and lovable~ and from that, gained the capacity to self-validate…
Since core trauma results from poor or inadequate parenting from the onset of life, this kind of wounding inhibits a child from feeling lovable or worthy of receiving care, which inevitably causes attachment struggles in adulthood…
For this child, Love means painful longing and yearning for that which cannot be gratified. Thus, this same type of emotional experience is intoxicating in his/her adult attachments, for their present anguish is literally identical to feelings that he/she experienced throughout childhood, which are now interpreted as ‘the real deal,’ or True Love…
Core-damaged children grow into needful adults, but they could fear that if they let themselves love somebody as intensely as they want to, that person will freak out, run off into the night, and abandon them. ..
Every core injured adult child has to live with the tormenting, inescapable question: “Am I good enough to be loved by you?”…
These childhood survival strategies remain intact throughout our adulthood, which can spawn serious clinical issues like Anxiety Disorder, obsessive-compulsive features, attachment difficulties, bad partner selection, addictions, personality disorder traits, etc.
Childhood experiences always predict the nature of adult relationships…
Sadly, the partner of an abandoned (adult) child cannot help but step on emotional land mines that have lain dormant, perhaps for decades….” – Shari Schreiber, https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
I love this article. I was posting a lot on another blog and from what Schreiber said in this and a few other articles, she read my posts. I know she knew the site owner.
Snowphoenix says
“Since core trauma results from poor or inadequate parenting from the onset of life, this kind of wounding inhibits a child from feeling lovable or worthy of receiving care, which inevitably causes attachment struggles in adulthood…
For this child, Love means painful longing and yearning for that which cannot be gratified. Thus, this same type of emotional experience is intoxicating in his/her adult attachments, for their present anguish is literally identical to feelings that he/she experienced throughout childhood, which are now interpreted as ‘the real deal,’ or True Love…
Core-damaged children grow into needful adults, but they could fear that if they let themselves love somebody as intensely as they want to, that person will freak out, run off into the night, and abandon them….”
@Limerent Emeritus
I’m a case that literally fits the statement. Before coming to LwL, I recognized the “identical situation” I was in dealing with the current LO. On one hand, he “served” well as a parental-LO listening to my complaint about Mom and my cptsd (as a father, he has patient and empathetic ears). On the other hand, the leading-on Sensor in him often ignorantly and knowingly triggered abandonment melange in me. I saw it clearly and struggled to break free, but was hoovered back again and again.
Many others in my life also unknowingly triggered this deep childhood attachment wounds. That’s why I said to treat and heal cptsd is my bigger challenge; limerence is just a part of it.
Sammy says
“Childhood experiences always predict the nature of adult relationships…
Sadly, the partner of an abandoned (adult) child cannot help but step on emotional land mines that have lain dormant, perhaps for decades….” – Shari Schreiber, https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
I love this article. I was posting a lot on another blog and from what Schreiber said in this and a few other articles, she read my posts. I know she knew the site owner.”
@Limerent Emeritus.
I think that’s a pretty solid article. I enjoyed reading it…
I didn’t feel intrinsically loved as a child. I felt as if love had to be earned. However, the guidelines on how to earn said love weren’t exactly clear. 😆
I think I also had to repress the parts of me that didn’t meet with parental approval e.g. being cheeky. Strange how ineffective repression is as a means of moulding human behaviour long-term!! The repressed always returns! 😁
I didn’t grow up to be a caregiver/enabler/rescuer type. I think, for a time, I went with “social misfit”/outcast/rebel for an identity. However, as I grew even older, I realised that the “social misfit” tag is/was inauthentic for me, doesn’t describe my basic personality, and isn’t who I want to be anyway. 🙄
I seem to be a … very conservative personality with a cheeky side. Interesting! 🤣
C for cat says
Gosh LE, this is exactly what I’m starting to explore in my therapy.
Limerent Emeritus says
C4C,
I wish you the best.
Confronting these issues can take you places you had no idea you’d be going to.
But, for me, it was well worth it.
C for cat says
Thank you LE. It’s scary but I hope it helps me to build an intrinsic sense of self, as Dr L says in another blog post.
Snowphoenix says
“Some women should admit they’re not fit to handle children.“
@Nisor
That’s my Mom. She’ll never admit that she didn’t fit to be a mom! She did not even want to be a mom but took the “bit” with my paternal granny, who claimed Mom was too skinny or fragile (easily got sick) to ever produce any children for Dad (before their marriage). So Mom took the bit and I came to the world — she told me so herself. Then she aborted all the following 3 pregnancy by choice.
While ignoring and abusing me in all fronts at home, she basked in praises from the rest of the world: how fair she was to nurses, how caring she was to patients, how smart she was to save many lives by correct diagnosis (doc.), etc. At home, she’s always tired, upset, mad, impatient, ocd and extremely critical about everyone else and the entire world. All Dad’s graduate students were scared of her cold, careless face — she did not care about Dad’s professional life (prof.), despite his repeated protests. She is not just narcissistic —narc, but a true malignant narcissist — Narc!
Now, God damn it, I have to take care of the retired Mom— serving as her eyes, ears, and mouth because she doesn’t know any English. She’s very dependent in all logistic matters after being served superbly well by the saint Dad. I fought my head over toes in the past 5 years trying to stop her life-time habits of criticizing, sarcastically nagging or preaching, in vain. Sometimes, I just wanted to strike her with my fists, but I could not. I want to throw her to the street; but I could not!
By (sub)conscious comparisons, I “ran” to much pleasant, humane Sensor LO to complain thus reduce the pains of dealing with the long-faced Mom; my limerence pain was Much LESS than cptsd suffering from its walking origin. In the past year, the situation got a bit better — I simply cut off all unnecessary contact — not even New Year greeting or birthday wish to her! Hard to go NC with LO? Try NC with one’s own mother! 😡
You see, how many complicated factors have contributed and deepened my latest limerence. Life is indeed unfair! 😖
Nisor says
Hi Snow,
So sad to hear your childhood story and as a result your struggles with LE. I just wish you find the right therapist to deal with it all, receive some comfort and get healed. It’s heartbreaking for me as a mom to read your story for I have children and God knows how terrified I was of not doing a good job and have them suffer for anything.
I know I didn’t do a perfect job but I was aware at all times of my children’s needs. It was exhausting at times, and one can loose control
when overwhelmed. I got into parenting willingly and full aware of the enormity of the task, not quite… We’re dealing with tender fragile souls, it is scary to have those souls damaged! What a guilt I feel for even a spanking them when needed.
I don’t know what to say about your mom, but as you say she was a narc, it’s pretty hard if she even feels guilty for neglecting you. Perhaps she was overwhelmed by her work. Try and forgive her and honor her in spite of your hurt. It’s ok not to be close to her, if you don’t feel like it, or she reminds you of your tribulations , but holding a grudge only worsens your wound , I think.
I wish you were near me and sit down together and hug and cry a river over these issues, you need tons of love right now . Don’t hold in your feelings, be compassionate to yourself as you would be to a good friend. Cry if you must, you need to clear out your mind and soul , and crying does help a lot. You’re not alone. We care for you and your wellbeing. Lots of tight hugs for you. ❤️
Snowphoenix says
@Nisor,
Thank you for your comforting words and advices.
Mom is a baked cake that can never be unbaked again, she never apologized for what she did to me even after I explained they were so hurtful and clearly wrong; she claimed that others moms in the same culture did the same things to their kids, which was not true. I remembered clearly that I wished several gfs’ moms could adopt me throughout childhood and youth. I cannot and will not forgive the unjustified cruelty any parent has done to their children, which would invalidate those children’s sufferings!
I’ve accepted that I can never change the past but improve the current me. So my focus is on how to deal with life-time affects that cptsd casted on my system since early childhood. Because her presence somehow always caused (un)reasonable irritability in me and often made me lose temper quickly, (my protective brain repressed/lost some childhood memories due to extremely fearful or paining events; but my nerves seem to have kept a score), the best thing to do is go LC with Mom. It’s has been effective in the past full-year — Out of sight, out of mind! (She lives 4 blocks away from me)
I I know crying is an incredible way to release stress and deep grief, but I was mocked and scolded by both Mom and Dad for “weakling’s tears” since young. So my tears do not come easily even when I call for them earnestly. I can cry hard if watch a sad movie or read sad news about suffering children…. In another world, I could sympathize or empathize with others much easier than with myself — another feature of cptsd.
You sound such a loving mother, and I indeed wish we could live close by. Next time when I go to Europe again, I’ll visit you to have a hearty chat and cry!
Sammy says
“Me, I became a mother by choice. I wanted to be a wife and a mother and I wanted to stay home to care for my children. I gave up my career to be with my children, to love them and to enjoy them, watch over them.”
@Nisor.
Thank you for your very kind words.
I think what happened with my mother was that she was raised by a narcissistic mother herself, so there’s multiple generations of questionable parenting practices at work, and bad habits get passed down.
For example, my grandmother often told my mother (an attention-hungry little girl) to “go to room and occupy self”. (Or words to that effect). And my mother, without realising it, probably adopted the same approach with me when she felt stressed. But my mother is/was narcissistic, so she couldn’t admit she felt stressed or overwhelmed, because that would be owning up to imperfection, and narcissists can’t really deal with imperfection. (If narcissists admit they’re imperfect, they instantly cease to be narcissists, and join the ranks of ordinary humanity! To be a mere mortal on the same level as everyone else is a narcissist’s worst nightmare! Narcissists are the self-appointed aristocrats of the human race). 🤣
Narcissists have a unique personality structure called a “false self” from which they live and operate, and the whole point of this false self is to elicit praise and to deflect criticism. The false self is all about self-protection. So narcissists act very similarly to young children themselves ironically, and have many of the same needs. The narcissist is often so preocupied with maintaining the false self they have no energy left over to love and/or bond with other people.
As an unusually sensitive little boy I did carry around a lot of guilt and shame for some reason – way more guilt and shame than was warranted by any real misdemeanours I committed. Perhaps that guilt and shame was reinforced by misapplied religious teachings? I dunno. I feel one or both parents could have lightened that burden of guilt/shame, but ultimately neither of them did…
“Some women should admit they’re not fit to handle children.”
I feel that saying some women aren’t fit to handle children is a little harsh, even if there is a grain of truth in the statement. I don’t want to turn this into the Let’s-blame-Mummy-for-Everything thread. But I think it’s fair to say that … some parents of both sexes are UNDERPREPARED for the demands of parenthood, or are unaware of the enormity of some young children’s emotional needs. 😉
My mother did have a positive effect on my life in some ways. She introduced me to totally wholesome interests such as gardening. I probably inherited my language skills from her, and my interest in reading. She pushed me to do well in school, and the pushing worked for the first ten years of my formal education. She may have been the brains behind some of the nice trips we took as a family.
“Cheer up and hugs for you and Snow.”
Thank you. Much appreciated. 😛
Nisor says
Sammy, Snow, Limerent Emeritus,
Good morning.
I wish we also had a therapist, clinician, or psychologist in the group to help with the input of these childhood traumas, when they arise in the blog. We thank Dr. L for the wonderful work he’s doing and helping us with his kindness.
This is a universal problem, child abuse. It breaks my heart to hear countless stories about childhood traumas. It’s unacceptable! I’m so mad about it! I’m besides myself!
Parenting is the most difficult job there is, very serious business, it’s a tender precious soul you’re dealing with, and there’s no schooling for it. It’s government negligence for not teaching it in schools and universities while students are young and might think twice before having children.
A license for parenting should be required before two people get married, you get a license to drive a car, don’t you? Eh?
A psychological test should be taken before having children to see if the couple is fit to be parents. (If only that could be possible)
There should be laws that parents (mom or dad taking care of child) would take off at least five years from job to rear children to ensure a healthy bond with them; have it supervised by competent social workers, therapist etc (Not too many would like this, but it’s like having the cake and eating it too?) Either you work or have children. Bringing up a child is time consuming, I don’t know where the mothers who work find the time to care for their child properly.
If couples don’t have the economic means to bring up a child properly, they should then wait till the time they can “afford “ a kid. Too many children dying of hunger, abuse, enslaved around the world because of irresponsible parents.
It would cost the government less money if they implemented some schooling, and laws to protect children from careless parenting than trying to fix it later with psychological treatments, drugs, asylums , and jailing , and avoid so much suffering.
I’m just ranting here. Because we’re dealing with precious , fragile, tender lives here! No joke!
It isn’t the movies or Hollywood where you can just change the script at a pen’s stroke, if you don’t like the ending. It’s irreversible! There are traumas carried on from generation to generation!
And it won’t be stopped until somebody does something about it.
I’m just so mad at the abuse of children. Don’t think moms have it easy, they need help, I’m not kidding! Children rearing is a 24/7 job, no salary , no vacations either.
Every pregnant woman should take a course on parenting , by law… and offered the help needed to bring up a healthy child in all its senses.
Wishing the best to all. 🤗
Problem Child says
I agree that there should be some form of education around parenting, however it would be a lifelong lesson wouldn’t it? It changes and is so vastly different from one child to the next, I don’t think you could fit it in a handbook!
I don’t agree that you should work or have children, I think that’s completely unrealistic and how, for example, does that teach a girl that she can have a career at all? If you have that maternal pull, there isn’t a lot you can do to deny it, but you will have ambitious desires too, that is normal. I’m not sure it’s always healthy for the parent, to be at home all day with the kids, or the child for that matter. Most mums I know need adult conversation and interaction, and hobbies at least, if not a job, in order for their brains not to atrophy!
Trauma is of course, carried through families, but by recognising that, it can be changed. Still an effect of the trauma, but with a more positive outcome.
Mila says
@Problem Child
I agree on the „work OR have children“.
A child needs happy parents, and many parents love their job and need the stimulation/responsibility/creative outlet to be happy. I think parents are role models for their kids and it‘s good for children to see you living your life and not sacrificing it all for them (what a burden of responsibility for kids, especially when it makes you unhappy).
Nisor says
Mila, Sammy
Your post of September 8, (no reply button),
Mila thinks limerence ‘ seems to lose its sting when you get older”.
Sammy: “Some people experience limerence for the first time in old age.”
Aww, I’m a living case of limerence at old age, it’s my first limerence episode, no hormone problems, past that menopause epoch long time ago; it just happened!!! That’s why I came to LwL, I was hitting the internet trying to find out what the heck was going on with me. Going crazy craving for Lo!!! Why me, why at this age? Why 49 years later NC, this person (ex boyfriend) is disturbing my peaceful harmonious world? I’m a grandma for heavens sake!!!
You can imagine I’m shocked , and sad, and scared, and don’t know when this will pass. He’s very much alive in my mind. I’m
living three lives at once, the past with lo, the present with SO, and the sting of limerence with lo in the present. Communicated with lo twice last year after 49 yeas of NC, but can’t communicate anymore for he has a wife and she seems to be in charge of his phone… she has an answering recording with her voice now. He’s happy to talk to me though. But it’s too painful, so it’s better to leave it at NC and see if it fades away on its own. I’m trying, I’m trying…
Have a great weekend you all.🌹
Sammy says
“I’m a grandma for heavens sake!!! You can imagine I’m shocked, and sad, and scared, and don’t know when this will pass. He’s very much alive in my mind. I’m
living three lives at once, the past with lo, the present with SO, and the sting of limerence with lo in the present.”
@Nisor.
Wow! That’s such an interesting situation to be in. It does suggest that limerence is “mental activity” more than simply the need to pass on genes. I wonder if your mind is trying to reconcile all the different eras in your life, and make peace with any regrets?
There was an older lady posting on LwL a few years ago. I think her name was Rita, and she stopped posting. I think she became attached in her mind to a beautiful tour guide (male in his 20s) who she and her husband met while travelling overseas.
It is a little bit scary – sort of the intensity of the attachment that forms. But it also seems to be taking place all inside one’s head, so it’s not as real as it often feels.
MJ says
@Nisor,
It scares the hell out of me that I could possibly be in an LE (this LE) in 30+ years. 49 years of NC. Thats just amazing and interesting all at the same time. While I’d like not to be, thoughts of LO just make me feel all
warm and fuzzy on the inside. Like a warm blanket on a cold night.
Oh limerence is so pathetic and sad..
But you have a good weekend too..
Nisor says
Snow,
You made me smile when you say ‘mom is a baked cake, cannot be unbaked…’. Let’s say she is a burned cake. Discard the thoughts of her as a burned cake, no remedy. Cannot undue what she did. I hear you! What’s done is done, now let’s focus on yourself and how you can progress in life by getting over the cptds as much as possible.
It seems in childhood you must’ve been a bystander, always observing but not capable of acting or reacting for fear of punishment, and the confusion these issues creates in the mind of a child is so grave! No wonder you’re overwhelmed with emotions in your internal world, and wondering what this all means.
It’s very wise of you accepting you can never change the past but improve the current you . Congratulations, that’s a step forward. You keep on working on that. A little step at a time…
We can never change the past but we can surely change the future. And from here on to victory! A new self, secure and in harmony with yourself and the whole world.
Ps, I was not always a great mom. I was cranky at times and overwhelmed and sometimes irrational, tired ; had too much in my plate that I could handle alone. But most of the time I tried to make up at bedtime to explain to them and ask for understanding and forgiveness.
See you in Europe next time you come!
Always be compassionate to yourself.(it’s not self pity) Rub and caress your arms and cheeks, your upper legs as if you were that little child being caressed by a loving hand, and receive that love you’re yearning for.
Sending you hugs to last a whole week!
Mila says
@Sammy, @Nisor
It overwhelms me to find the right reply button…
Gosh, I had this hope of being this mellowed wise person after menopause, no immature desires eating away at me, and now you destroyed this beautiful illusion:)
Well!
I was prone to limerent behavior here and there, but real limerence actually struck shortly before 40.
I think you are on to something when you say your mind/mating drive, whatever, was looking for an LO to attach itself to. Could be the same with me. Also, I‘m working out at the moment what might be lacking in my life that I have to have this limerent stuff.
Also, Sammy, I appreciate that you want to take the guilty thoughts away from me, it’s sweet of you, but I think they are rather healthy:)
and I think the knowledge that I‘m getting selfish when limerent kind of helps me fighting the limerence.
I think you are all really kind and helpful people and just want to say Thank You!
Nisor says
Mila, sorry if I ‘destroyed your beautiful illusions’ of a free limerence old age, ha. It is not in our hands to decide when the beast will attack…
Sammy:
“I wonder if your mind is trying to reconcile all three different eras in your life, and make peace with any regrets.”
Making peace with my regrets, that’s exactly what it is! And trying to reconcile the three eras…
I didn’t handle the breakup of that relationship right, was very naive and immature ; thought I was done with it, forgot about him for all those years! Now the memories have come back to torture me, but they’re beautiful memories. I had a dream with him last year that’s how limerence started! In a dream! Unbelievable! LwL/dreams is where I tell how it all started. I thought I was going insane until I found LwL ; then I realized this fits exactly with what’s happening to me: limerence!
Thanks to DrL and the commenters for all the help one can get from this blog.
Have a beautiful weekend.
Anonymous Forum Person says
Nisor, I read here sometimes but hardly ever post (too public for me!) but I’m active in the private LWL-related forum at https://limerenceforums.com
I just wanted to tell you that your story sounds almost exactly like mine! Feel free to join the private forum if you’d like to talk, I’ll keep an eye out for you.
IMHO says
Hi AnonFP,
Can you advise how the forum works. Do you mean the fact you have to sign-in with email details means less amount of people voyeuring that maybe aren’t understanding /part of our ‘ tribe’ ? The concern to me is the word ‘Sign-up’ and all of what that normally brings. What reassurance is there on data protection etc signing up with email address ? I appreciate and trust Dr L with my email address. He let’s people post directly here with no sign-up. there is no monitoring before post appearances ( which potentially is dangerous but most people posting seem very responsible)
Thanks
PS i shouldn’t be posting at all . Ha ha !
Nisor says
Hi Anonymous Forum person,
I thank you very much for the invitation to join Limerent Forum.
I was very hesitant to even join this blog, but as I read along, the commenters private stories and Dr Ls, I had a gut feeling he’s a responsible, decent, kind and noble man, who will not let us down with our privacy here.
My story is too long and I suppose I’d be better off writing a book instead of writing a piece of it here and there, ha. If I didn’t have SO home all the time, you bet I’d have done that writing, eh.
Come and visit us here, we will appreciate it, I’d love to hear the similarities of your story and mine . Just give me a hint…
All best wishes.💪🏽
Sammy says
“Making peace with my regrets, that’s exactly what it is! And trying to reconcile the three eras…
I didn’t handle the breakup of that relationship right, was very naive and immature ; thought I was done with it, forgot about him for all those years! Now the memories have come back to torture me, but they’re beautiful memories. I had a dream with him last year that’s how limerence started! In a dream! Unbelievable! LwL/dreams is where I tell how it all started. I thought I was going insane until I found LwL ; then I realized this fits exactly with what’s happening to me: limerence!”
@Nisor.
Ah, that’s very moving and very sad. Dreams have played a role in my limerence, too. I think it might be very common for people to dream about their LOs, and then wake up with either feelings of ecstasy or feelings of intense sadness. It’s like one’s brain is carrying on the obsession even as one sleeps, because of the way limerence invades human consciousness.
Hopefully, LwL provides you with some answers regarding what you’re experiencing. Personally, I think we’re searching for some lost part of ourselves, and our LO conveniently represents that lost part. 😉
Snowphoenix says
‘I think we’re searching for some lost part of ourselves, and our LO conveniently represents that lost part. “ @Sammy
I’m still not sure if we ‘re searching for some lost part of ourselves, or some parts we did not properly acquire from our terribly deficient—bond with our parents when little. The former would fits the “twin flame” theory; in the latter LO seems to give us something we so missed in our deprived childhood ors something we imagined as ideal parental care.
In my case, after the glimmer set in and Dad expectedly passed away, LO unknowingly “served” as a surrogate parent I seemed to have searched in my entire life until 4 years later when the “cruel” reality showed me it was not the case. But this sense of having obtained a “savior” LO could be just a limerence illusion for the first 4 years of my LE.
Then, your sense — “LO conveniently represents that lost part” of ourselves took a stronger hold in my mind in the next 2 years phrase, since I could intuitively predict a lot of LO’s behavior correctly w/ knowing how, just like I strongly felt I knew this person previously when I first set my eyes on him for 5 seconds. Still, I don’t believe “twin flame” theory, and LO and I do not seem to share many compatibilities.
Now after two months in LwL with much more self-awareness in my body and mind, dopamine high and low still intermittently kick in with LC. Some days I had to run into my cocktail meditation 4-5 times a day or do it longer time each session (when my focus was distracted), just to curb down lingering rumination, suspicion, jealousy, mourning, and occasionally terrible melancholy….
The good news is that my meditation is serving as my big savior — flattens those unwanted emotions; they’re not gone, just not so acute or painful. After each session, if not giddiness, I got at least peace in my chest and clearer mind in head. I have few resentments to work with but still some fears, a deep fear of losing the Phantom (already separated from LO) or losing it all…
How do we find (or better create) our “lost part” and put it rightfully in our brain, where LO used to occupy?
I guess a goal of my purposeful living still has not settled in me… I guess I’m in a grief stage although my limerence is not totally over yet…
Some DrL’s blog articles have enlightened me with the psychological angles (to look at some stubborn limerent mind and behaviors), which I had never thought of before and thus greatly reduced some of my resentments and fears. To treat and “cure” limerence, one really needs to incorporate actions and thinking simultaneously, and the latter is often more powerful, to me.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“I’m still not sure if we ‘re searching for some lost part of ourselves, or some parts we did not properly acquire from our terribly deficient—bond with our parents when little. The former would fits the “twin flame” theory; in the latter LO seems to give us something we so missed in our deprived childhood ors something we imagined as ideal parental care.”
I think an LO represent some lost part of ourselves because of how strongly we resonate with them emotionally. However, I don’t subscribe to Twin Flame theory. I don’t think one can “acquire” some missing part of oneself by engaging in a given relationship because all the “good stuff” still belongs to the other person! 😆
“How do we find (or better create) our “lost part” and put it rightfully in our brain, where LO used to occupy?”
The approach I’ve taken is to write a list of all the things in life I feel too anxious to do, and then do those things over and over until the anxiety starts to fade. So really I’m just practising a form of exposure therapy or self-supervised Cognitive Behavioural Theory. E.g. if I’m too scared to use public transport, I will make a point of using public transport as often as possible until my fears dissipate. 😉
Snowphoenix says
“I think an LO represent some lost part of ourselves because of how strongly we resonate with them emotionally. However, I don’t subscribe to Twin Flame theory. I don’t think one can “acquire” some missing part of oneself by engaging in a given relationship because all the “good stuff” still belongs to the other person! 😆”
@Sammy
Now you convince me more of your point, although I still suspect that our emotional resonance could also be a part of our fantasy, especially when our LO is not interested in us or just does emotionally resonate the same way as we do. Your stand also makes sense why it’s so painful to let LO go when it’s not working out or detrimental to us— we watch “a part” of what we are missing is “leaving” us, although it has never truly belonged to us even when we’re engaged with LO in a realistic or perceived level.
You’re absolutely right that we can not acquire good or bad stuff from others, anything new has to be generated or created within. But LO has manifested to us what we had vaguely sensed missing beforehand — I can list some of good qualities of each LO, which I have admired and which I believe I could have cultivated if without those terrible cptsd incidents and their lingering affects.
“The approach I’ve taken is to write a list of all the things in life I feel too anxious to do, and then do those things over and over until the anxiety starts to fade. So really I’m just practising a form of exposure therapy or self-supervised Cognitive Behavioural Theory.”
I know your approach works, which I also practiced with turning off nightlight during sleep. Due to a horrible incident, I was always afraid of darkness and dreadful to wake up in the middle of night alone…. Now, I’m fine with light off, getting up, or staying awake in darkness for a couple of hours, ruminating or meditating. The haunting night sky is no longer going to fall down on my head, and nowhere else is better or more of a center than my own comfy bed.
My biggest fear, more than anxiety, is still that abandonment melange, which could be triggered daily by so many scenes or incidents so ordinary to others. With the increased cptsd awareness, it gets better; however, I’m still running away from those “abandoning” scenes instead of staying with them, such as big empty classroom or office, or leave a place as last person, or go to a quiet park or beach…. I need to see people and dogs around, although they’re strangers.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“… although I still suspect that our emotional resonance could also be a part of our fantasy, especially when our LO is not interested in us or just does emotionally resonate the same way as we do.”
This makes a lot of sense to me! 😛
“My biggest fear, more than anxiety, is still that abandonment melange, which could be triggered daily by so many scenes or incidents so ordinary to others.”
I don’t think I fear abandonment. To me, the most painful thing I’ve ever experienced in life is actually “limerence limbo” – the pain of being attached to someone who seems to have one foot in and one foot out of the “relationship” at all times.
I think extreme oversensitivity to emotional pain is mainly what motivates me to try and leave limerence in the past, and replace it with “affectionate bonding”. I obviously don’t want to feel pain. Nobody does. And I don’t think many LOs really want to be blamed for someone else’s pain i.e. pain generated through the limerent’s emotional dependency on LO’s real and/or perceived behaviour. 😉
I know a young woman once. She wasn’t necessarily limerent for me, but there seemed to be some budding attachment forming on her side, and she was reacting emotionally in quite a visible way to any “cues” she believed she was getting from me. So I can say from firsthand experience, one can feel a little uncomfortable being scrutinised so intently by another.
If the “LO” likes the limerent but isn’t “in love” with the limerent, the LO might wonder why can’t the limerent take said liking at face value? I.e. why is the limerent always looking for deeper meaning in pleasant gestures that aren’t meant to convey deeper meaning? 😉
Adam says
‘I think we’re searching for some lost part of ourselves, and our LO conveniently represents that lost part. “
It’s probably why limerence happens for a lot of us mid life. We are in the midst of reevaluating our life and looking to the past and seeing how different life went than what we thought it would when we were young and idealistic. I still don’t have that Cadillac DeVille I always wanted yet.
Instead of turning to our partner (if we have one) and trying to make mutual plans for the future to help us both reach goals in life we inadvertently look to another tantalizing person to live our missed opportunities vicariously through. Not fair to everyone involved honestly. Even ourselves.
MJ says
“It’s probably why limerence happens for a lot of us mid life. We are in the midst of reevaluating our life and looking to the past and seeing how different life went than what we thought it would when we were young and idealistic.”
Having a younger LO keeps me hopeful I can and will stay young myself. Even though I know it realistically isn’t possible. LO is 28. Inside I still feel like I’m 28. But looking in that mirror sometimes and seeing 52 years in front of me really kinda sucks..
Adam says
MJ
Yeah you are in a unique position with limerence that most of us aren’t in that you are not already in a committed relationship. So your LO is available in that until she tells you “no” you have a chance at a relationship together.
And don’t be too hard on yourself with your age difference. I know it is not as common in newer generations but I know a lot of Boomer couples that had large age gaps, including both my grandparents, that made it work. Don’t loose an opportunity because of age, at least. Most of the woman I was interested in my 20’s were much older than me, and I never took the chance because I didn’t have the courage. I’d be very happy to pop in here and find out you at least took the chance and knew one way or another. Uncertainty is a killer.
Snowphoenix says
“To me, the most painful thing I’ve ever experienced in life is actually “limerence limbo” – the pain of being attached to someone who seems to have one foot in and one foot out of the “relationship” at all times.”
@Sammy
in the earlier years, Limerence Limbo did not affected me as much as perceived abandonment acts from LO — treated as a fatherly figure. After 4 years when he was pulling his one foot out (with lies and rare temper), limerence limbo began to bring me more intrusive thoughts, rumination, anxiety, anger and poor sleeps, and even made me feel like walking around and talking in surreal!
When I was an LO, I never left one foot in the dynamic so possibly causing other side’s pining — I could not stand “human pets” of any kind. Unaware of limerent Sensor’s existence before LwL, LO #7’s pulling and pushing made my mind tumbling all over places, guessing and questioning everything he said or did, responded or reacted — it’s such a mental torture! After suspecting him as a narc who strings others along with pleasant manners and charming untruths to extract and uphold their affection to fuel his own narcissistic needs, I became furious and even verbally attacked, probably just covering up the underneath unspeakable pains!
“And I don’t think many LOs really want to be blamed for someone else’s pain i.e. pain generated through the limerent’s emotional dependency on LO’s real and/or perceived behaviour. 😉”
Thank you for reminding me a blameless LO’s perspective, which was quite understandable — the reason I never gave out any mixed messages, (sub)consciously controlling or messing others’ mind and emotions — it’s one of cruelest things human beings sometimes do to others. However, since I was in unrecognized limerence with the altered state of mind, I was not blameless — probably perceived and incorrectly interpreted the way too many desired “cues” from a Sensor LO — he’s just not that “innocent”!
“So I can say from firsthand experience, one can feel a little uncomfortable being scrutinised so intently by another.”
I can picture and understand such discomfort, although I had never got to that point in the past.
“If the “LO” likes the limerent but isn’t “in love” with the limerent, the LO might wonder why can’t the limerent take said liking at face value? I.e. why is the limerent always looking for deeper meaning in pleasant gestures that aren’t meant to convey deeper meaning? 😉”
You just nailed another point here again, which, looking back now, accurately captured some truth of my case — my limerent mind refused to believe LO’s charming, superficial words, alternating between straightforward and curved-hints, which LO’s actions almost always contradicted later. Now, I’ll make a mantra out of what you just wisely pointed out here: take words for their face value and force the limerent mind not to wonder between lines.
Nisor says
Sammy, Snow, Adam,
“I think we’re searching for some lost part of ourselves, and our LO conveniently represents that lost part.”
Very interesting conversation going on in here!
In my case, I was not looking for a lost part. It was LO who sought me out and pursued me, of course I let him.. I was at my finest shape emotionally and physically. I felt complete, wholesome and happy as anyone could be, when LO showed up. The way he used to gaze into my eyes, it felt he was seeking to drink my soul…
So I feel he robbed part of my soul and now I want to gain it back. Isn’t it fair I want it back? He stole from me! He also stole my peace of mind. Like a vampire he sucked the life out of me! After all, I let him steal from me the most precious feelings I had ever had… or did I surrender them to him voluntarily??? Yes! And I treasure what I stole from
him…
We will never know, and that’s what’s eating us up. Memories, sweet , memories, that’s all there’s left. And we dream on…
Have a great weekend.💪🏽
Sammy says
@Nisor.
“In my case, I was not looking for a lost part. It was LO who sought me out and pursued me, of course I let him.. I was at my finest shape emotionally and physically. I felt complete, wholesome and happy as anyone could be, when LO showed up. The way he used to gaze into my eyes, it felt he was seeking to drink my soul…”
Thank you for sharing, Nisor. I think hearing many different points of view helps create a clearer picture of what may or may not be going on in limerence.
Your story seems to suggest that limerence can happen to someone who is self-assured and quite content with who they are. It seems to be maybe the lure of a too-good-to-be-true romance that ultimately proves destabilising and not any pre-existing problems or issues?
“So I feel he robbed part of my soul and now I want to gain it back. Isn’t it fair I want it back? He stole from me! He also stole my peace of mind. Like a vampire he sucked the life out of me! After all, I let him steal from me the most precious feelings I had ever had… or did I surrender them to him voluntarily??? Yes! And I treasure what I stole from him…”
That is very interesting. I didn’t feel as if my LO stole my soul. I felt as if LO was my soul. He embodied some part of me that I disowned when young and needed to reclaim. I didn’t really feel as if he took anything from me. He just vaguely reminded me of something.
Sammy says
“Gosh, I had this hope of being this mellowed wise person after menopause, no immature desires eating away at me, and now you destroyed this beautiful illusion:)
Well!
I was prone to limerent behavior here and there, but real limerence actually struck shortly before 40.”
@Mila.
I think, for me, “real limerence” struck for the first time and maybe for the only time just as I was about to turn 16. Although there were some melancholy thoughts about the person on and off prior to that. I define “real limerence” as becoming so obsessed with one person – or, more accurately, with the idea of one person – that one stops caring about one’s own life and goals and prior relationships, etc. One devalues platonic friendships, family, hobbies, etc. One is just completely swept away by this blissful dream that revolves around LO.
Now, I’m 40 years old, and the “high waters of limerence” have receded somewhat. Why now am I escaping limerence with relative ease? I dunno. I like to joke that I’m experiencing “early male menopause”, which is freeing me from the horrible burden of lust, even though male menopause isn’t something that has been scientifically verified. (Males do experience drops in testosterone with every passing decade they live, but the resulting changes are less dramatic than the hormonal changes females go through throughout the lifespan). 🤔
My LO seemed to be good at everything – academics, sports, music. A real Renaissance man. He oozed confidence – some would say arrogance. And he always looked a million bucks on top on that. So it’s easy to understand why people might envy him or look up to him or find him attractive (and/or repulsive due to the arrogance). It’s a little bit harder to understand why I become obsessed with the idea of him. I mean, why not admiration without obsession? Wouldn’t that be a healthier response overall? Why not a passing fancy? 😆
So, to me, limerence seems to be an inborn biological drive that spins out of control. It definitely seems related to mating and maybe reproduction. Though obviously I couldn’t reproduce with my LO, rendering the traditionally-understood concept of mating redundant. Honestly, since I’m not a biological female, my physiological response to this male e.g. sweating, blushing, shaking, racing heart, feeling ridiculously self-conscious, seem unwarranted and worthy of the harshest mockery. I’m embarrassed I was so moved by this person…
“Also, Sammy, I appreciate that you want to take the guilty thoughts away from me, it’s sweet of you, but I think they are rather healthy:)”
If guilty thoughts, or healthy shame, keep a limerent from doing the wrong thing, then I think that’s cool. I’m thinking more along the lines that the suffering limerents sometimes endure – good limerents, who haven’t crossed any boundaries, etc, and don’t wish to – is disproportionate to the harm done. Basically, I think limerents sometimes hurt themselves more than they hurt others. Although I guess neglecting one’s other relationships is hurtful. 😉
Dr L says
Hi All
Apologies for this, but just had a technical failure on the blog and have lost any comments posted in the last 3 hours or so.
Thank goodness for backups, but sorry for the loss of wisdom 🙂
Mila says
As far as I can see, nothing is lost. Which means I spend much too much time on this site again.
Problem Child says
Ah, so now I know what the coffeehouse is for!
I never feel I’m my true self, I’m not even sure who it is. I’m different with various people, and a complete gibbering mess around LO. I think we have come to an end, at least on his part. He has begun ignoring me unless, it seems, he has to engage. It hurts but is probably for the best. I just want this stage to end. I want to go back to being happy with SO, I was in a good place before this started, I actually hate LO for that, despite it hardly being his fault!
Is anyone awake? I have stayed away from the chat because it seemed to make things worse, but I really need a lifeline, it is eating me up. The futility of it! I am trying to focus on other pursuits but everything comes back to him – if I decide to improve an area of my life I realise it’s for him, I want him to notice. Was he ever interested or have I been fooling myself the whole time. Who knows or cares? Only me in this hole.
Mila says
Hi Problem Child,
sorry that you are at this dark stage now. Maybe it’s necessary so you can get up into the light again.
Don’t put yourself down. Everybody is different around different people, you adjust to them, it means you are sensitive and want them to feel good, maybe too much.
Also I think it’s ok to hate LO a bit even if it‘s „unfair“. He caused you pain and if it helps you to see that he‘s an ordinary and not THAT great person, that he shouldn’t have that power over anybody, then negative feelings might help you push him away and get him down from his pedestal in your thoughts.
Problem Child says
Thank you Mila,
Yes I think it’s ok to hate him a bit too, and natural, but I keep clinging on and if I give in to the hate, it could turn nasty, I can be very nasty when I start to devalue someone. There are 3 quite insignificant things or incidences I particularly dislike about him, so I’m trying to keep thinking about those!
C for Cat, it’s like grief almost, the losing of him is close to intolerable, but must be endured as in the words you’ve posted. I suppose it means we’re moving on, I hope for enlightenment soon, and for you too!
Thank you for the hugs Nisor, no there is no pain like unrequited love (lust?) the rejection is so hard. I don’t feel there is anyone I trust enough to divulge these thoughts to, it is too big a secret to bear. I have considered telling him, but that I don’t want anything from him, and am just happy to have in in my life (which is a half lie but I think it might help to clear the air).
Mila says
Problem Child,
Don’t do it, or don’t do it right now in the state you are in! I mean to disclose.
Especially when you are not 100% behind your words. I mean it’s not true at the moment that you don’t want anything from him and are just happy to have him in your life, is it?
If he’s not completely insensitive he will sense that it’s not true and it will creep him out.
Wait until you are clearer in your own head. I understand the wish for release and to clear the air, but it won’t clear the air, I’m quite sure of it without knowing anything about your story.
Sorry to be so forward, but disclosure is a bomb, you should think twice before you take that step.
Problem Child says
This is such wise advice Mila, I hadn’t thought of that. It probably would come off as insincere at best and yes, possibly creepy at worst! Thank you, I will keep in there, fighting the good fight!
Snowphoenix says
In my experiences, a true unrequited love does not cause pain, but requested lust DOES.
@PC
I second Mila, do not disclose anything now. Wait until your limerence is reduced sharply in intensity BY YOURSELF w/ LwL’s assistance, then make a decision with your cooler head. I was in your shoes several times, and knew well how unstable our limerence mind and emotions could be at this stage.
Before coming LwL, I tried several LC and NC with my heated head (due to disappointment, jealousy, anger, panic attacks, etc) but without clear mind or plan to where I would be heading afterwards. Then, soon or later, I would be hoovered back by LO’s charms and superficial apologies. Then, limerence-go-round again and again…
You’ll get over this toughest time, wish you the best…
Snowphoenix says
Typo: an unrequited lust DOES. It causes primal and instinctual pains…
Mila says
@Problem Child,
I know the need to unburden oneself, especially when things get awkward, one feels inhibited and tongue-tied or even aggressive with LO and one wants to explain why, and also the thought of finally disclosing has something liberating about it.
But me personally, when I did that once, did the math without LO, didn’t take into account that his reaction would be unpredictable. I envisioned saying my thing, him reacting something like „ah, that’s how you feel“, in the best case disclosing that he feels the same, but at least being understanding and showing respect etc.
But he felt awkward, didn’t understand all I said and gave me some answer like „well, I don’t understand what you want me to say/do now“ , not very loving and understanding, and certainly not giving me peace.
I felt angry and humiliated afterwards. If you can free yourself from all expectations for his reaction, ok, but one has to be at the end of the LE or very mature to do that (which me, I‘m not)…
In your case, you didn’t take into account that he probably will feel something untrue, like I said, and this will confuse him and he might retreat more which will hurt you more.
So hang in there and it will get better! I‘m sure if that!
Problem Child says
I will wait, thank you for the support and encouragement. I feel a little clearer, not much, but I see that disclosure would not be wise, and by the time my head is in a better place, I will hopefully be well on the road to being over him and I won’t need to bring it up anyway!
At the moment I am close to hating him, but I know as soon as I see him again I’ll be right back to lust, so I need to stay as distant as possible. I’m not sure how to do that whilst remaining civil. I’m not very good at grey areas, it’s very much all or nothing with me!
I can see all the things I need to be doing but the action is so difficult. It’s easier to sit in the enveloping warmth of Limerence, I want the heady feeling of falling for someone and the suspicion that it’s reciprocal, I want that feeling to go on and on. If only I could turn it toward my SO. I do love him but it’s a solid, comfortable love. Probably the kind people dream of! I want the chase, that giddy daydream of what could be. And if I can’t have that I want to starve this pain away, run it out, become a shell.
Mila says
@Problem Child,
I understand you so well.
I‘m limerent for my friend at the moment, trying my best to keep the friendship afloat without disclosing, and I also have this love(lust)/hate up and downs. I try to temper them and not let them show- he‘s bewildered sometimes nonetheless, but he’s a bit naive and a temperate, guileless soul, so he just let me act this or that way without being hurt or asking why, which, absurdly, drives me crazy sometimes.
Sometimes I wish I could just cut the contact, or disclose and then cut the contact, something dramatical and liberating… but then I would lose my friend and I couldn’t bear it.
I just go on and hope that everything will run its course and fade away.
But I get you, this exhilarating feeling of limerence seems to equal being alive in the best way. Hard to give it up.
C for cat says
I know what you mean, Problem Child. I feel angry at my LO too. Just keep going. There’s a bit in the musical of Groundhog Day which means a lot to me at the moment. It goes:
You can curse
Cast spells or cry
Offer your prayers
To the unfeeling sky
The spring will arrive
When the winter is done
And if it’s not tomorrow
Then tomorrow, or tomorrow
There will be sun.
Tomorrow, spring will come, and then
There will be blue skies, my friend
Bright eyes and laughter
Tomorrow, there will be sun
But if not tomorrow
Perhaps the day after.
Mila says
Beautiful:)
Nisor says
Problem Child, hi,
Not a good day for you today, it seems. Oh , do I know that feeling so well… the anguish, the agony, discomfort, the whole world turned upside down! The desperation , sorrow and helplessness , that sharp jab in the heart and stomach… so many overwhelming emotions, the end of the world…. So much suffering for another human being , it’s inconceivable! There’s no other pain greater than the pain of a loss of a loved one in a romantic relationship. And I think I can attest to that, I lost both my parents a sister and a brother, a niece. Very painful indeed, takes time to heal; but the loss of my beloved, it is too overwhelming, too much to bear! It’s like ripping a part of you from the inside! It’s a continuous suffering and torment that no balsam can soothe away. Yes, I know, I know how you feel!
You need to cry and wallow in your sorrow until it washes away the heavy burden in your chest. Don’t try to cover or escape it , you got to live it, taste it until there’s no more tears. It’s part of the healing process. And repeat the process as many times as necessary. No use of telling you what to do now that you’re so sensitive, living the agony of a loss, detachment. All you need now is an understanding friend, a family member, a shoulder to lean on to cry, and for strength and a ray of hope.
Yes, there’s hope in the horizon when time becomes your best ally . Spring comes after a long winter…
Here’s a site you can visit:
“ Tips for coping with emotional pain.” Loving Roots Project, Dr. Shelly Sommerfeldt.
Sending my best wishes and fast healing ❤️🩹 many tight hugs for you.
Sammy says
“Is anyone awake? I have stayed away from the chat because it seemed to make things worse, but I really need a lifeline, it is eating me up. The futility of it! I am trying to focus on other pursuits but everything comes back to him – if I decide to improve an area of my life I realise it’s for him, I want him to notice. Was he ever interested or have I been fooling myself the whole time. Who knows or cares? Only me in this hole.”
@Problem Child.
I used to think that feelings of social alienation cause limerence. Now I think it’s the other way round – limerence produces feelings of social alienation (and unworthiness, ugly duckling syndrome, etc, etc).
Basically, all the “yucky feelings” people have during limerence are actually created by limerence itself in order to keep the limerent stuck in limerence. Once one exits limerence, one is surprisingly free of “yucky feelings”. At least that’s been my experience… The yucky feelings are as illusory as the nice feelings. 😉
Problem Child says
Hmm, I am definitely socially awkward – it is getting better with age but I’m fairly certain I was this way before I felt any Limerence for anyone. I’ve felt odd from a very young age! But I can see how it could be vice versa, and I can see how not being unhealthily attached to someone could benefit me, socially. If he’s around I spend most of my time trying to catch his attention and only half engaging with anyone else, wondering if he’s watching, making sure I suck my stomach in, walk like Marilyn Monroe. Exhausting!
I’m finding that trying to be as present as possible with my family helps somewhat. It creates a focus and grounding. I struggle to give in to the love, to fully experience joy in them and myself. It’s like I can’t let go, but I think if I can learn to, I might get some of what I’m chasing with LO from the people who genuinely love me.
What an age to be starting to grow up! 🙄
Sammy says
@Problem Child.
“Hmm, I am definitely socially awkward – it is getting better with age but I’m fairly certain I was this way before I felt any Limerence for anyone. I’ve felt odd from a very young age!”
I think, prior to limerence, I was socially awkward, but not unhappy about being socially awkward. I was a happy ugly duckling.
When limerence struck, I became unhappy about being socially awkward, although I think I also overestimated my level of social awkwardness, because I was unreasonably comparing myself to someone who was super-confident and high-functioning. I became an unhappy ugly duckling.
I don’t know if limerence was some push from deep within my own psyche to improve my overall level of social competence…
Anonymous Forum Person says
@IMHO You asked me a question about limerenceforums.com but for some reason there wasn’t a Reply button on your post, so I’m quoting it and replying here.
“ Hi AnonFP,
Can you advise how the forum works. Do you mean the fact you have to sign-in with email details means less amount of people voyeuring that maybe aren’t understanding /part of our ‘ tribe’ ? The concern to me is the word ‘Sign-up’ and all of what that normally brings. What reassurance is there on data protection etc signing up with email address ? I appreciate and trust Dr L with my email address. He let’s people post directly here with no sign-up. there is no monitoring before post appearances ( which potentially is dangerous but most people posting seem very responsible)”
limerenceforums.com is private and can’t be internally searched by Google or other search engines. It is run by a group of us who were on the private forum that used to be here on LWL. It is not a commercial site in any way, no information including emails is monetized or used in any way other than sending automated notifications (if requested). I’m an admin and moderator but moderation is light and infrequent.
LWL is a great site and we always post links to Dr. L’s weekly blogs on LF. But I personally was never comfortable commenting on private matters on a site that is as open as this one, and others had similar concerns. The LWL forum was perfect for that, so when it closed, those of us who still wanted that private discussion area simply built a new one 🙂
Serial Limerent says
A song for the limerent: https://beautifulcrisis.bandcamp.com/album/deep
“Deep”–Beautiful Crisis (single with remixes)
When you put your mouse up by the tracks, you can click on “lyrics” and read what it’s all about. For example:
“Give me just a signal or sign
If I’m on the right line
[everything you do gives nothing out]
[no one ever knows what you’re about]
So much I don’t know,
I can’t deny ‘Cause I can’t read your mind
[So give me just a signal or sign] ”
“I still haven’t eaten
They say my depression just isn’t convenient”
“You’re like a magic box
I have the key but don’t know where it goes in”
“You give me nothing to go on
You’re so deep like the water
When you can’t feel the bottom”
Adam says
Just wanted to drop in for a minute. I don’t want to stay too long and get mired in it again. But Momma and I had a really good honest conversation yesterday that I think is a really positive step in the right direction. Progress is being made and as much as I miss my limerent friends here I still think I need more time away. Hope that you all are doing well, and if Momma still checks in here she can share any details we talked about if she wants. I miss you all greatly. Take care of yourselves. Maybe I can come back one day.
MJ says
Come on back Friend.
You’re always welcome.
Glad you’re doing better.
😉
C for cat says
That’s great news, well done Adam. I think I’ve had more honest conversations with my SO since I disclosed to him than we’ve ever had. We certainly feel closer. As long as I can keep my LO out of my head and not see him again until I’m in a better place.
Therapy is interesting. A bit scary; I feel I’m starting to open a bit of a Pandora’s box…
Limerent Emeritus says
Yep,
“Therapy is interesting. A bit scary; I feel I’m starting to open a bit of a Pandora’s box…”
Only ~10% of an iceberg is visible above the surface.
It’s what you don’t see that sinks you.
If you have a competent therapist and are willing to do the work, you can go to places you wouldn’t believe.
When I started therapy, I didn’t just go back 25 years to understand how I got to where I was, I went back 50 years. I started out trying to bury one ghost of the past.
By the time it was over, I ended up burying 4 of them. My mother, my grandmother, LO #2, and LO #4.
In the end, it was worth every minute.
C for cat says
Thanks LE, I feel as if that’s what’s going to happen for me. It’s like standing on the edge of a precipice! But I do feel already that things are starting to shift a bit. It’s very encouraging to hear how much it did for you.
MJ says
Lucky Cat.. 😸
Maybe I’ll get there eventually. Happy for you though..
Limerent Emeritus says
C4C,
” It’s like standing on the edge of a precipice!”
Yeah, it can feel that way.
For me, [bad analogy coming], it was like an abscess that finally got so annoying that I had to do something about it.
Like Dr. Pimple Popper, you never know exactly what you’re going to find until you start digging. It turned out that the root cause of my problem was some long-standing resentment I had for my mother, grandmother, and LO #2. LO #4, who bears more than a superficial resemblance to LO #2, was a major inconvenience. What my last LE showed was I still had a vulnerability.
I always knew LO #4 had to go, it was a question of when and how. However, once she was inside my head, it was harder to get rid of her than I thought it would be.
The resentment was the pus. That resentment was taking away a lot of energy I could have been putting into other areas of my life. Like cleaning out any abscess, once the pus is gone, there can be a pretty big hole left behind and if you’re not careful, it can fill back up. But, once it’s cleaned out, you feel a lot better.
Good luck!
Nisor says
Bravo C for Cat! You’re really showing great courage!!!!You’ll be just fine, you’ll see. And from here to the sky!
Best wishes w/ your therapy and SO. Hugs for you.
Nisor says
Hi MJ,
You’ll be next! Waiting to hear for the good news with your therapist. Don’t use the word limerence when you request for an appointment. Just that you need urgently cognitive therapy; after a while you introduce the issue as an “obsession “, by that time they’ll do anything for you, ‘cause you are a lovely person’, and you deserve the very best. Go get them man!
Blessings and a big tight hug to last until you get that therapist.💪🏽
Sammy says
I’d like to touch on a topic that I don’t think has been addressed previously on the blog, and I think the coffeehouse is a logical place to do it. The topic is: what are signs/symptoms that someone is coming out of the altered state of limerence? How does one know one is returning to “normality”, in other words?
Here are my thoughts/observations:
(1) After limerence, time seems to move a lot more slowly. The world seems to slow down. I guess this is because one isn’t ruminating and obsessing constantly. For example, I spent 40 minutes in front of the TV the other night, and it felt like four hours. (A good reason to start living purposefully I guess?)
(2) Things that previously had strong emotional/romantic associations for the limerent won’t carry those associations anymore e.g. a full moon.
(3) Physical attractiveness will loss most or all of its significance as a measure of someone’s value. Even movie stars will start looking ordinary. I guess, when one is no longer dreaming of romance, how other people look ceases to matter. The emotional part of the brain doesn’t respond so powerfully to beauty. Attachments become more about other traits e.g. is this person easy-going?
(4) Vague feelings of existential dread may disappear, especially the kind of vague feelings that keep one up at night. For example, my whole life I’ve suffered from anxiety. The anxiety has gone away for now, and I hope it doesn’t come back. I think my anxiety was really my brain instructing me to seek dopamine.
(5) Libido will return to normal levels if libido has previously been elevated. Also, one will stop obsessing over how normal one is in the sexual arena compared to other people because one now FEELS normal. (One isn’t troubled by excessively strong desire that seems hard to manage and conducive to guilt feelings).
(6) One becomes a lot more agreeable and forgiving. (No brutal mood swings to undermine one’s essentially good-natured temperament).
(7) One will feel a lot less alienated from other people/mainstream societal values, and one will understand that the magical world one inhabits while limerent isn’t the real world per se. I.e. it’s not normal to swing between ecstasy and despair and feel crazy amounts of anxiety all the time. And no, most people are NOT sending complicated secret signals to other people. Life isn’t a detective novel, or a spy thriller. One shouldn’t be forever on the hunt for “clues”. 😉
Nisor says
Sammy hi,
How does one know one is returning to “normality”— from LE.
For me , I slowed down , the world slowed down, less emotional/romantic associations…After ten furious months of being madly energized , some highs some lows ,(depending on the memories intruding the brain) , the mind only functioning about 85%, (no control) crying, ruminating, difficulties to breath or sleep, anxiety, no appetite, the whole world revolved around LO, etc., by the eleventh month the world miraculously slowed down, not necessarily bringing it to a halt, (5 months now), but it made me slow down also. It was the result of forced NC. All doors to access LO were closed by his SO. For which I’m glad because I don’t know where that energy and craziness would have led me to. NC continues and I’ll be so happy when it all ends and I come back to total normalcy. What a rollercoaster of emotions and suffering this limerence can bring! Never went through this before! It’s like a curse or hard punishment, total torture! That’s addiction to a person!
Can’t wait to see the day it all goes away for good!!!
Stay strong 💪🏽 and hugs for you.
Sammy says
@Nisor.
“For me , I slowed down , the world slowed down, less emotional/romantic associations…After ten furious months of being madly energized , some highs some lows ,(depending on the memories intruding the brain) , the mind only functioning about 85%, (no control) crying, ruminating, difficulties to breath or sleep, anxiety, no appetite, the whole world revolved around LO, etc., by the eleventh month the world miraculously slowed down, not necessarily bringing it to a halt, (5 months now), but it made me slow down also.”
That is a great description, and I think it might be helpful to non-limerents who are wondering what limerence actually feels like…
“Stay strong 💪🏽 and hugs for you.”
Thank you. I will. 😛
Adam says
I have an unrelated question to limerence for the ladies here (and of course men can chime in too.)
I had a few gin & juice drinks this morning while I sat in my lounge pants and played Warframe. When Momma woke up she said we needed to go to the store. So I got dressed and she drove. I got on my shoes, gray jeans, gray collared shirt, black waistcoat and black fedora. We were just going to 7-11 and Dollar General. But I wanted to look the best for her in public. I made the comment that we looked so different because she was in her sweatpants and hoody. She just kind of chuckled. Does it matter what we wear? Do you ladies care if we are dressed well or in jeans and a t-shirt? I dress the way I do so …. it feels like marking my territory. She belongs to me (oh god I am going to get hell for that) and no one else. Just curious if women notice how a man dresses and much as us men do with you ladies.
Serial Limerent says
Oh, yeah, we notice. I don’t mind jeans and T-shirts, the geeky look I’m comfortable with, but I do wish guys would put in more effort when they’re not just lounging around.
Snowphoenix says
@Adam
Just by the way LO grooms, I know accurately which day he is going a rendezvous with his side chick, which would cause my jealousy pain (I was never jealous of other females before this LE). If he dresses slobbish, then I feel better throughout day. Such is an annoying idiot of LE’s hypersensitivity.
I even smelled his subtle cologne when shortly after we first met at work, I could not believe my half dog-like nose but was very pleased. Nowadays men rarely wears cologne in my line of work.
Adam says
Thanks for the replies. I was just curious if women noticed fashion like I suspect most men do. I always like it when Momma dresses up. Her in a skirt/dress and heels … oh my …. unfortunately not heels much anymore since her ankle surgery. But she’s got some *wink wink* boots she can wear.
Snowphoenix
I use to wear cologne a lot when I was younger. But Momma either is hypersensitive to the smell or has an outright allergenic reaction to it we found out soon after we got married. So I don’t wear it anymore.
But I find women’s perfume enticing if it is in moderation. I can walk past both men and women that put waaaaay too much on and it’s like walking into a brick wall to my nose.
Snowphoenix says
@Adam,
I wear skirt and dress mostly at work, but also ironed trousers, jeans and shirt. I always carry a small bottle of condensed perfume purchased from Fragonard, France, but the scent, even tiny bit, is so strong that I worry to be thought of a seductress by “ethical” LO.
I wore a plain black jean and white shirt w/ light makeup and without any perfume yesterday and for some reasons got hit by small talk of several men throughout the day in metro, shops, and at work, including LO. Later I realized that my not-transparent shirt is a bit of tight… ☺️
Men are creatures of visual, helplessly; so are women, but much less helpless….
Adam says
For some reason Snowphoenix this post reminded me of a part in Charles Bukowski’s book “Women”.
“You boys can keep your virgins. Give me hot old women in high heels with a**es that forget to get old.”
^I agree with him.
I know my brain is a mess. Now it’s time to go home. And I will leave you with my most favorite quote of his.
“When you drank the world was still out there, but for the moment it didn’t have you by the throat.”
Imma take his advice when I get home. Hope you have a good evening.
Serial Limerent says
My LO has enveloped me in hugs where I’d smell his cologne on my hair for the rest of the day. I’ll walk past him and the scent of it makes me weak in the knees. Or the time he had so much on I smelled it across the room….Makes it hard to keep the thoughts under control….
frederico says
A brilliantly descriptive slice of limerence. Conciseness is often so good.
Serial Limerent says
@frederico
Thanks. 🙂
Nisor says
Hi Adam , didn’t see the post until now.
I like to see my SO and son to be neat and elegant for work or other occasions. (I choose the clothing for both) But for everyday chores a pair of jeans and a nice T shirt 👕 , sneakers will do. I always like gentlemen with suits and ties, well shaved for office work. I admire framed lean athletic bodies, anything they wear look good on them. Yeah, I d prefer younger men wearing light colored shirts or T shirts , not dark colors . One dresses according to the occasion, but sloppy dressing it’s a no no under any circumstances. And some soft cologne. Some strong colognes smell like insecticides .
I always wear a pair of pants and beautiful colorful blouses. When I worked I wore dresses or skirts and high heels .Light perfumes. No sweat pants for me. Jeans yes . In winter I can wear sneakers, summer I wear all kind of beautiful colored sandals. I love getting all dressed up for an event or a wedding !!! I still have a great lean body shape and the right curbs in the right places… no difficulties finding something beautiful to fit in. Each individual have their unique style to complement their personality.
Have a good evening . Sending you a hug.
Adam says
Nisor
I find my change in fashion sense in my older age has also brought a lot of confidence in myself to dress as I want even if it is “old fashioned” for just everyday things. I dress a bit more casually for work because I do office work and manual labor in the warehouse. But going out, I like to look sharp for my wife. She may not care that I do, but I want to do it for her and myself.
Which reminds me I need to go to the dry cleaners this weekend ….
Nisor, from your post here I can guarantee you are turning some men’s heads. Even if they are being discreet about it. 🙂
As Snowphoniex said, us men are helplessly visual and I agree with her. Even when my wife already knows I will notice a woman’s attire long before I actually do myself lol Here’s to 24 years in October
Nisor says
Adam,
If you look up the movie “ Gilda” with Rita Hayworth, body and face, curly hair, I’d be her twin sister, but with black hair.
Many people, men and women used to tell me that. But I never thought of myself beautiful but just a regular person. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. LO and So find me beautiful, ha. But I rather be good and wise…
Have a pleasant evening. 💪🏽
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
I feel like we’ve been having a little informal debate with each other, whether we realise it or not. And I think maybe the coffeehouse is the best place to finish that discussion. I’ve really enjoyed exchanging ideas with you. Because you’re sort of centred in your masculine energy, you’ve pushed me into my feminine energy, and I find it relaxing to use an often-dormant part of my brain.
Debates in real life usually consist of three rounds. Best of three wins. 😉
I flatter myself into believing I won round one of our informal debate. (Free feel to disagree with me if you feel victory was yours). Winning theme of debate one: limerence is bad because addiction can lead to near-unbearable and senseless suffering, usually for the limerent, but occasionally for both LO and limerent.
I feel you won round two of our informal debate. Winning theme of debate two: limerence is good because profound romantic infatuation can unlock the potential creativity of human beings through freeing up libidinal energies which may have otherwise remained buried and hence unused.
I don’t know the winning theme of round three yet, or the topic of round three. I suspect you will win round three, though, and I’m old enough and mature enough to let that be the case. I feel that it is good for young people to defy their elders sometimes because it shows young people have a lot of pluck and vitality, and that pluck and vitality augurs well for the future of civilisation. 🤔
As a “tribal elder”, I don’t see it as my place to tell other people what to do. As a “tribal elder”, I think it is my job to encourage people to educate themselves on relevant issues and then, using that education, make the smartest possible decisions for themselves. I feel that if people aren’t allowed to make decisions genuinely for themselves, any decisions made won’t stick.
This is why I don’t directly oppose posters in favour of limerence – I don’t want my point of view to become one more “barrier” that needs to be opposed in the limerent’s mind, which is already programmed to resist barriers. (Barriers only makes the limerent obsession grow stronger). So a bit of subtle psychology is at play when I choose to take a gentle, noncommittal approach! I really want people to look at the various options, consider the pros and cons, and pick out the right course for themselves – a course compatible with their other life goals. 😉
I have written a poem for you, since you like an intellectual challenge. It’s just a playful little poem, but the overall tone is pessimistic. The poem is a playful comment on why limerence might be negative. (I.e. limerence is bad because it doesn’t last. And even if one marries one’s LO, responsibilities pile up and one struggles to remember the bliss one shared initially with one’s partner).
The poem does contain some cliched imagery. I’m not trying to write the best poem ever written. The poem is intended as an instructional piece, which you are of course free to respond to with your own views. The last two lines of the poem are sarcastic/tongue-in-cheek, but I think you’re intelligent enough to pick up on that already without being told. I’ve even managed to sneak in a “phoenix reference” to indicate that the poem was inspired by our exchanges on LwL! 😜
The phoenix rises from the ash
And in due course dragon eggs hatch.
“Man is flame and Woman water,”
Mothers seldom instruct daughters.
Envy not young couples courting.
Brief their season in the sun.
Time, indignant, will conspire
To rob them of all laurels won.
Knights weary of noble deeds
And maidens sicken of moonlight.
Responsibilities intrude
On perfect days and carefree nights.
The flowers of springtime vanish.
The birds of summer too retreat.
Follow the herd. But mark my words –
Not every berry picked is sweet.
The one you want won’t always shine
Like a glass of sparkling wine.
“Man is clay and Woman fire,”
Fathers rarely tell sprogs sired.
Call me a spoilsport if you like
And curse my creed in seven tongues.
What would I know of ecstasy?
What could I know of the gods’ fun?
MJ says
Nice poem Sammy..
What is it with limerence that seems to turn some of us limerents into poets?? I’ve written quite a handful of them myself. Perhaps it needs it’s own thread..
🤔🤔
Sammy says
@MJ.
Haha! And thank you. 😛
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy,
The reason I enjoy responding your posts is because a lot of thoughts and issues you randomly or purposefully touched lit up a march over some “untrodden” territory inside me, which may be somewhat related to my “crooked” (by cptsd) personality and manifested in my relating to others (failed or successful) without my clear awareness or recognization.
“Well, to be honest, believe it or not, I’ve always felt a little bit uncomfortable with debating, and still to this day feel uncomfortable with debating. However, debating seems to be something that my brain is naturally very good at… “
In my COO, there is no neutral translation for “debate”, it’s equivalent to negative “argument” which is considered to automatically ruin that “sublime” harmony. There was no debating club or any kind of encouragement as I grew up; my father served as a “natural trainer” (his ego strived to win in all areas) to tease and provoke my brain during my teenage and always upset me because I “lost” basically every argument . I don’t believe that one is born to love arguing , but some kids, if exposed to good books, are more curious than others. If they are listened to well and their opinions taken appropriately, then the urge to argue might have be subsided or died right then and there.
In my case, I was so ignored physically and mentally before reaching teen, that unheard, accumulated stuff were repressed inside like volcano mess. In addition, with a higher energy level un-channeled sufficiently through sports or engaging mental activities, I became argumentative or rebellious. Given a perceived “right” cause, my mental volcano would “erupt” in a form of frenzied argument or rebellious act.
“I really don’t want to clobber people with my opinions, or pressure people to see things from my point of view, or anything like that. I’m a very live-and-let-live type of person. Ninety percent of the time I don’t care what people do with their private lives, as it’s simply none of my business.”
I used to be very opinionated, thinking my views are more accurate or valuable, which alienated a lot of people who didn’t like arguments on complicated topics. Puzzled by the reality and saddened by its “tragedies”, I was habitually helplessly drawn to its complex issues since young (cptsd affects?). So for me, I don’t see you’re pressuring others to take your points views, it’s fascinating to see different views on the same or new complex issues — that’s where my curiosity about the world lies.
“Most of my life I’ve been either (a) terribly afraid of saying the wrong thing, or (b) too worried about hurting people’s feelings to say anything. I don’t believe in “giving it to people straight” necessarily. I think a bit of flattery can be valuable when sharing important truths – a dash of social lubricant goes a long way. “
I’ve been so self-conscious, terribly afraid of saying wrong things and being laughted at behind my back, that to this day, I avoid raising my hand in others’ classroom, even if I had dying questions that no one else mentioned. My heart would beat like hopping rabbits, my face flush, my legs shake, if I finally raised my hand and was given a chance to speak. Isn’t it very telling and ironic considering my profession?!
Privately on one-to-one/two basis, I could literally talk or argue about any issues under the sky, given that other side, male or female, is somewhat a “match hand” with their curious, open mind and personality — of course, I have to like them to extend to even begin. My problem is that I tend to be straight-forward with an attitude of genuinely seeking truths, and thus rarely (don’t know how) flatter — feeling embarrassed to say superficial things that I did not mean to. But with many failures, I’ve learned that subtle or substance-filled flattery/praise could be more valuable than any truths, men are particularly love to hear it!
“When I was a little boy, my mother told me I was special. But she didn’t back up her words with actions. Her love for me was conditional.”
During my childhood, no one ever told me I was special (maybe Granny?), but somehow I just felt and thought I was special. So perhaps that was why I behaved rebelliously, daring what other kinds were absolutely afraid to do, like physically escaping from daycare/weekcare center three times at age of 5 or 6.
“Being special to LO” was the premise of the whole fantasy. So I was definitely re-enacting some relationship from my childhood, hoping to get a better result the second time round. I couldn’t see the parallel at the time.”
That’s exact psychology with me. We both have cptsd with our narcissistic/narcissist parents. We’re dying to have LO to fulfill our never met childhood needs. But no one, even if they are willing, could make up what I have permanantly missed, because we are no longer that kid; no one can step into the same water twice!
“I think, because I was raised Christian, I’ve always been super-concerned about the sin of lust. So I’ve always monitored my own feelings obsessively.”
My COO was worse than Christianity in this regard, which inhabited and repressed my innate, healthy lust not just in physical level (I unconsciously kept its repression even during my marriage), but other creative domains. COO culture stresses obedience the most, oppressing and even prosecuting individual and creative mind.
“The most important difference between my limerent self and my post-limerent self is now I’m more comfortable with being open about my feelings. Also, more comfortable with admitting my many past mistakes. So I’m not hiding behind a “mask of perfection” anymore…”
With or without limerence, I was open to few of selective friends; but highly guarded to the rest, including LOs. Although pursuing to be a perfectionist, I don’t wear a “mask of perfection” because inside I was very insecure and “fragile” in some sense like an emotional orphan. Yet inherited Dad’s pride, I hated to admit, and rarely acknowledged my uncountable mistakes and follies.
But with the current LO, for some reasons, I was unafraid to show him all my vulnerable parts through monologue oversharing, because I fantasied him as an ideal surrogate parents, I used him — whose opinion I cared most, as a training ground to open myself up for the first time in my life. He knew this and just listened, rarely judged — one excellent merit of his. He never put me down or made me feel inferior in any sense; he just would not respond to some sensitive or over personal topics. So this LE in its wired aspect, benefited me out of my expectations — allowed me to make up some unmet needs from childhood and thus matured some through its roller-coaster ride.
Each LE is different; my previous LEs were not so “beneficial”.
*****
I feel like we’ve been having a little informal debate with each other, whether we realise it or not. And I think maybe the coffeehouse is the best place to finish that discussion.”
I did not realize that we were debating, I just found some of your views provoking my curiosity with meaningful relevances — they’re important issues for me personally in terms of relating to the world and other people.
“I’ve really enjoyed exchanging ideas with you. Because you’re sort of centred in your masculine energy, you’ve pushed me into my feminine energy, and I find it relaxing to use an often-dormant part of my brain.”
I consider this as a highest flattery! — my masculine energy arouse or energize a men’s feminine energy! Wow! 💃🏻
As mentioned before, I can’t stand macho, high masculine energy in men; moderate in women is cool. I found men’s tears are very touching and human, and distrust men who are afraid of shredding tears in front of me — believing they are capable of doing “cruel things” to me, such as inconsideration for my feelings or breaking my heart without hesitation. I’m always afraid of hurting others, especially LOs.
A fable here: A king asked five blind men to describe what an elephant is like after touching them. So five man described it, respectively, as a fan, a rope, a wall, a tree trunk, and a sword. Then the king said, you are all correct, but only partial because you can’t see the whole elephant.
To see the whole life as an elephant, we are all a blind man. Religious people say only God can see the whole elephant, atheist claim no one could ever see the whole of the elephant who is also constantly changing. At any given time, we each blind man can only subjective see and present a small portion of reality. But we often argue and debate as if we know the whole truth — “I’m right and he’s wrong”… 10 different perspectives (culturally) could be all correct, but just partial.
So debating for two sides sometimes is quite limited… You and I are merely presenting two varied views on limerence, based on our OWN, different experiences, not necessary that of other limerents here.
“Winning theme of debate one: limerence is bad because addiction can lead to near-unbearable and senseless suffering, usually for the limerent, but occasionally for both LO and limerent. “
That’s general true since you have covered a lot of variables. But LO might feel embarrissed or annoyed, they can NEVER suffer limerents’ “near-unbearable” and “senseless” pains, unless they are in a mutual limerence.
“Winning theme of debate two: limerence is good because profound romantic infatuation can unlock the potential creativity of human beings through freeing up libidinal energies which may have otherwise remained buried and hence unused.”
Limerence CAN be beneficial if one is able to use it as a creative force fueling other self-growth interests. That depends on personality and one’s profound aim in life. I was in thick of depression after breaking up with LO#5 for the first rebound, then LO #7 suddenly landed from “the Mars”, instantly pulled my spirit out of the swamp of depression. Our human genomic instinct is marvelous in responding to its longing and “calling”.
“I don’t know the winning theme of round three yet, or the topic of round three. I suspect you will win round three.”
Theme three could be: whether limerent and LO could be friends after limerence is long gone; it’s sad if they are unable. Despite its ugly, painful elements, its beautiful, creative power is also amazing if used positively. Again think of those artistic creations throughout our civilization! And what could limerent and LO not forgive each other and amend in order to befriend, after limerence truly becomes peaceful? Life is already short and imperfect enough, why not making it less unfortunate in one area we have already devoted our soul in it?
“I’m old enough and mature enough to let that be the case. I feel that it is good for young people to defy their elders sometimes because it shows young people have a lot of pluck and vitality, and that pluck and vitality augurs well for the future of civilisation. “
“As a “tribal elder”, I don’t see it as my place to tell other people what to do.
What a “tribal elder”? Are you referring in LwL community, you’re an elder? 😳 Why do you keep “lamenting” about your age? Is mental and emotional vitality having anything to do with chronic age? 40 is still in youth bracket, 53 is new middle age base on one NYT magazine article a decade ago. Moreover, does chronic or mental age matter more? The world is so obsessed with youth, as if it has direct correlation to one’s substantial happiness or fulfillment. There are 80 yrs old, miserable, whinny “child”, and 30 yrs old, joyful and laidback sage, all depending on one’s mentality and wisdom, NOT one’s youth or external appearance. Gosh, I’m so preachy today…
“This is why I don’t directly oppose posters in favour of limerence – I don’t want my point of view to become one more “barrier” that needs to be opposed in the limerent’s mind, which is already programmed to resist barriers. (Barriers only makes the limerent obsession grow stronger). “
I don’t think anyone is so fond of limerence particularly considering its dark force — otherwise, without profound sufferings, we could not even locate LwL. Here everyone is also that “blind man”, presenting their partial view, so no absolute right or wrong in any “post”, except those scientifically based neurochemistry stuff, that still can’t explain Eastern “unscientific” energy-medicines. I’m ready to debate with DrL on this arena, after he experiences his body-mind connection.
“So a bit of subtle psychology is at play when I choose to take a gentle, noncommittal approach! I really want people to look at the various options, consider the pros and cons, and pick out the right course for themselves – a course compatible with their other life goals.”
You’ve been doing marvelous job here, everyone is getting something from your insights balanced with many factors of limerence. I even get a domaine fix by “debating” with your feminine energy — you might sweep away an ultimate success if the Phantom in me could be pushed out… 😋 If you were living in my area, I’d drag you out weekly for a true coffee house debate while we both look at and comment on those gorgeous men passing the windows. 😝 — it’s a bit of unfair that I have to compete with a man on getting other “animal-magnetic” men’s attention! 😁
“I have written a poem for you, since you like an intellectual challenge.“
I’m really honored to receive a personal “devoted” poem! 💃🏻 Allow me to be 35% narcissistic here — did my masculine energy inspire your feminine energy and poetic drive?
“It’s just a playful little poem, but the overall tone is pessimistic. The poem is a playful comment on why limerence might be negative. (I.e. limerence is bad because it doesn’t last. And even if one marries one’s LO, responsibilities pile up and one struggles to remember the bliss one shared initially with one’s partner).”
To creatively portray something negative itself is positive, look at those Greek tragedies! That’s what effective art, tragic or comic, is supposed to do — non-judgmentally presenting sorrows and woes in our shared humanity, consoling our suffering souls, and urge/push us to think and learn from those man-made irreversible errors and follies.
“The poem does contain some cliched imagery. I’m not trying to write the best poem ever written.”
After BS in COO, I got a BA in the “new” culture in Literature writing, specializing in poetry writing (all in English), and even earned small prizes for my homework collections and had one piece published nationwide. So I can apprecaite poetry at least, and habitually fuss over word choices in my own posts and other writings.
But I would like to refresh my own memory here, so reminding myself not to repeat my past repeated mistakes— expecting valuable, beautiful things to last and refusing to get into transient matters, since I foresee its possibly sad endings.
The first of four Nobel truth in Buddhism is: Everything is impermanent. (unguarded sensory contact gives rise to craving and clinging to impermanent states and things) The only thing unchangeable in this universe is “change” itself. Even our own cells, growing and dying millions each day.
That’s the default of our existence. So expect anything to last is physiologically or psychologically impossible. Everything will change or perish soon or later, inducing all relationships. Then, what’s the point for any kind of “purposeful living’? Then should we not bother to live, since we have to die one day?
There is no universal meanings for anyone, it’s futile to search for them elsewhere externally, except internally. One can and is responsible to create meanings for their own individual life — Albert Camus, who seemed to have had “sparkly” and “fulfilling” life despite its many tragic aspects.
I’ll try to respond your poem later.
Snowphoenix says
A typo: it should be — lit up a match-fire over some “untrodden” territory inside me….
— Including all relationships.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you for your very thoughtful and thorough response. I am very moved by your reply, and also have a vaguely uncomfortable feeling that I may have accidentally “met my match” in the intelligence department and should have keep my mouth shut, since you’re more than capable of holding your own. Being bested by a woman … oh dear, how embarrassing! Where’s the door so I can discreetly exit the building? 😆
Sorry for my delayed response to yours. But, who knows? Perhaps my delay was intentional? Perhaps I wanted to give you time to gather your thoughts and come up with something splendid, which I think you have, so … kudos to you. 😉
“In my COO, there is no neutral translation for “debate”, it’s equivalent to negative “argument” which is considered to automatically ruin that “sublime” harmony.”
For me, the concept of debating is neutral. The last thing I want to do is to inspire in a “shame response” in other people. It’s not my goal to make others feel small. Nor is it my goal to always be on the winning team. (When I was in school, I always wanted to be on the winning team. That didn’t work out so well. First prize always went to more conventional thinkers, or to people whose handwriting was much neater than mine!) 😉
“Arguing” has more of a negative connotation. I suppose, in a perfect world, debating would be objective – some kind of objective search for truth. However, I’m honest enough to admit my style of debating isn’t objective. It’s actually quite subjective, and that’s what makes it fun. I like to go off on little tangents and make jokes. I like to contradict myself multiple times in the one paragraph, and pretend I haven’t. Sometimes, entertaining people is more important to me than relaying pure facts. 😉
“I did not realize that we were debating, I just found some of your views provoking my curiosity with meaningful relevances — they’re important issues for me personally in terms of relating to the world and other people.”
Yes, perhaps you’re right. Perhaps we weren’t debating as such? Perhaps we were merely probing each other’s minds? Perhaps my mind was simply running on a few of the same tracks as your mind, creating a tantalising feeling of spiritual kinship, however fleeting? 🤔
“Theme three could be: whether limerent and LO could be friends after limerence is long gone; it’s sad if they are unable. Despite its ugly, painful elements, its beautiful, creative power is also amazing if used positively.”
Wow! Love it! Especially since it’s a “soft” topic and not a “hard” topic, so there’s not really a right or wrong answer. Is friendship and forgiveness truly possible after limerence has faded? I know the topic has been covered in a recent blog. But I have barely even begun to excavate my own emotions on the subject. It’s easier to have a pure-love response or a pure-hate response to someone who has hurt one at one’s very core than to have a nuanced response, a nuanced response where love and hate may coexist in roughly equal measure. 🤔
“You’ve been doing marvelous job here, everyone is getting something from your insights balanced with many factors of limerence. I even get a domaine fix by “debating” with your feminine energy — you might sweep away an ultimate success if the Phantom in me could be pushed out…”
Thank you. The funny thing is … I have no idea what I’m doing here. Or why I have an irresistible urge to keep talking about stuff I probably know very little about! I’m an extremely reserved introvert, I swear! In real life, I’m a mouse. You wouldn’t notice me if we were in the same room. 😁
“What a “tribal elder”? Are you referring in LwL community, you’re an elder? 😳 Why do you keep “lamenting” about your age? Is mental and emotional vitality having anything to do with chronic age?”
“Tribal elder” is me being playful in a self-deprecating way. Also, it’s me being pretentious in an absurdly self-aggrandising way. I see myself, quite narcissistically, as a “tribal elder” of the entire human race since I’m 40, unmarried, and childless. I suppose I have grandiose fantasies about watching over my fellow humans and making sure they don’t get into too much mischief. Not that I can stop anyone from getting into mischief, if that’s what they truly want. I have “surrogate father” fantasies. 🙄
I lament my age because I’m actually quite concerned with what is happening to my mind due to aging. I seem to be losing the ability to “get high” from limerence. That might sound like a dream come true to some people, but it makes me worried that mortality is waiting for me right around the corner, like my brain is slowly dying or something. I feel that “time is running out for me” i.e. I am genuinely losing my physical vitality and my mental sharpness with every passing year. On the other hand, the non-addict version of myself seems to be a nicer person. 😆
“I’m really honored to receive a personal “devoted” poem! 💃🏻 Allow me to be 35% narcissistic here — did my masculine energy inspire your feminine energy and poetic drive?”
Hm. I don’t know, to be honest. But to hear you advocate passionately for views that I personally reject – there are times when some phrase you’ve uttered or some insight you’ve offered has ALMOST made me change my mind. You’ve helped me see the light and the beauty in limerence as well as the pain and the darkness. Sometimes, it’s nice to be shaken out of one’s own complacency… Sometimes, a second opinion helps complete a picture that has previously been incomplete. 🙂
Nisor says
Oh Sammy,
That’s is beautifully composed!
Another poet in the LwL community! I always admired your writings but I didn’t know you can write poetry . You should start writing an anthology and poems and publish them. So should Snow.
You got the talent boy! Don’t let it go wasted! Go ahead and do it in your free time.
Have a great day. 💪🏽❤️
Sammy says
@Nisor.
Thank you. 😛
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
My preliminary response to your poem —
******
Only after breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ashes, then
rises again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head over tail
to hatch a new batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden their wings.
Fathers send sprigs to their sole quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and old.
Couple in summer, under the scorched Sun.
Harvest offspring and passion-fruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
Weary of noble deeds,
Knights can dig out ugly weeds.
Sicken of the moonlight,
Maiden can plant exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Flowers of snowy days bloom.
Birds of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter soar to chant.
The one you want won’t always shine.
Then cultivate your desire to self-delight.
Men is iron and wood
women fire and earth.
Interwoven by shared talents and wisdom.
both excel to dance in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in awes.
I sense ecstasy melodically spreading
in my strong, steady heart beats.
****
I may refine it later.
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
Change a couple of words, already —
@Sammy
My preliminary response to your poem —
******
Only after breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ashes, then
rises again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head over tail
to hatch a new batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden their wings.
Fathers send sprigs to their sole quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and old.
Couple in summer, under the scorched Sun.
Harvest offspring and passion-fruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
Weary of noble deeds,
Knights can dig out ugly weeds.
Sicken of the moonbeams,
Maiden can plant exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Flowers of snowy days bloom.
Birds of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter soar to chant.
The one you want won’t always shine.
Then cultivate your desire to self-delight.
Men is iron and wood
women fire and earth.
Interwoven by shared talents and wisdom.
both rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in awes.
I sense ecstasy melodically spreading
in my strong, steady heart beats.
****
Am I in limerence with LwL?
Snowphoenix says
I think I’ll give it a title — “In Eternal Flux”
Snowphoenix says
In Perpetual Flux
Only after breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ashes, then
rise again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head over tail
to hatch a new batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden the wings.
Fathers send sprigs to destined quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and renewed.
Couple in summer, in glimmering air.
Harvest passion fruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
Weary of noble deeds,
Knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of the moonbeams,
Maiden plant exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Birds of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter chant in soaring.
“The one you want won’t always shine.”
Cultivate your vision to research.
Men is iron and wood.
women fire and earth.
Interwoven by shared wisdom.
both rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in delight.
I hear harp of ecstasy melodically stirring
the strong, steady heart beats.
******
The 2nd version
Snowphoenix says
In Perpetual Flux
Only after breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ashes, then
rise again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head over tail
to hatch a new batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden the wings.
Fathers send sprigs to destined quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and renewed.
Couple in summer, in glimmering air.
Harvest passion fruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
Weary of noble deeds,
Knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of the moonbeams,
Maiden plant exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Birds of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter chant in soaring.
“The one you want won’t always shine.”
Alter your gaze at a new vision.
Men is iron and wood.
women fire and earth.
Interwoven by shared wisdom.
both rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in delight.
I hear harp of ecstasy melodically stirring
the strong, steady heart beats.
******
The 3rd version
Snowphoenix says
In Perpetual Flux
Only after breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ashes, then
rise again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head over tail
to hatch a new batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden the wings.
Fathers send sprigs to destined quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and renewed.
Couple in summer, bathed in genomic glimmer.
Harvest passion fruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
Weary of noble deeds,
Knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of the moonbeams,
Maiden plant exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter chant in soaring.
“The one you want won’t always shine.”
Alter your gaze with a fresher vision.
Men & women are iron and wood.
Women & men fire and earth.
Interwoven by shared wisdom,
Jointly rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in delight.
I hear harp of ecstasy melodically stirring
***
The 4th edition
Snowphoenix says
In Perpetual Flux
After breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to the ash, then
rise again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head-n-tail
to hatch a batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden the wings.
Fathers send sprigs to destined quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and renewed.
Couple in summer, bathed in the genomic glimmer.
Harvest passionfruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
“Weary of noble deeds”,
knights pull our ugly weeds.
Sicken of moonbeams,
maiden plant deep exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of chilly wind chant in soaring.
“The one you want won’t always shine.”
Alter your gaze with refreshed eyes.
Men & women are iron and wood.
Women & men fire and earth.
Interwoven by mingled insights,
jointly rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Mock my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in delight.
I hear harp of ecstasy melodically stirring
the strong, steady heart beats.
*****
The 5th version
Snowphoenix says
See how a perfectionist with OCD fully at work daily? — I could not help it! ☺️. OCD is worse than limerence to be rid off!
DrL: need the post-editing/deletion function badly, so I don’t annoy others by leaving so many versions of a same content.
*****
In Perpetual Flux
After breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to the ash, then
rise again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head-n-tail
to hatch a batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden the wings.
Fathers send sprigs to destined quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and renewed.
Couple in summer, bathed in the genomic glimmer.
Harvest passionfruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
“Weary of noble deeds”,
knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of moonbeams,
maiden plant deep exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of chilly wind chant in soaring.
“The one you want won’t always shine.”
Alter your gaze with refreshed eyes.
Men & women are iron and wood.
Women & men fire and earth.
Interwoven by mingled insights,
rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Mock my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in delight.
I hear harp of ecstasy melodically
stirring the strong heart beats.
*****
The 6th version
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
Don’t believe that I often feel how is portrayed in my verse, it’s flung out of my brain when dopamine surged a bit at the moment or out of my OCD ambition to win “debate”.
When my serotonin is low (like now after a sad dream), I’d feel more blue than how is perceived in your words. Your vision and mine are just two blind men’s sentiments from two different perspectives at two particular given time — all valid and correct.
In the past before this LE, I was more often in the mindset of your verse so actively avoided getting into some enticing, fun situations, foreseeing they’re inevitable “death”. So I did not experienced any anticipated joy before losing it, I did not obtain anything to lose! How foolish!
I wish with a bit more footing in Buddhism, I could seize a possible healthy, fulfilling chance and enjoy it as much as possible when it lasts, with the FULL awareness that it will end like everything else in the universe.
Now, I’m still in mourning of losses in the current LE, not fully burned to ashes yet for a regeneration.… 😞
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“Don’t believe that I often feel how is portrayed in my verse, it’s flung out of my brain when dopamine surged a bit at the moment or out of my OCD ambition to win “debate”.
When my serotonin is low (like now after a sad dream), I’d feel more blue than how is perceived in your words. Your vision and mine are just two blind men’s sentiments from two different perspectives at two particular given time — all valid and correct.”
Thank you for your response poem to mine. I like the imagery you’re playing around with, and the variations you’d like to introduce…
Allow me to write an eighth version:
In Eternal Flux
After breathtaking fireworks,
Phoenix burns to ash, then
Rises again from the East,
Making the poor dragon dizzy.
Mothers tell daughters: “Spread your wings!”
Fathers send offshoots on grand quests.
Old women loiter by cauldrons.
And old men retire to mend boots.
Young couples court in fields of green,
Make promises in evening’s still-warm light,
Harvest passionfruit among coloured leaves
And hibernate once cold winds set in.
Weary of noble deeds,
Knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sick of moonbeams,
Maidens plant exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter chant soaring.
Men and women are iron and wood.
Men and women are earth and fire.
Joined together in shared destiny?
Transported by the same heavenly lyre?
Call me an idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods smirking, eyebrows raised.
I know well the harp of ecstasy.
I feel that you really have two different themes running through your poem. On the one hand, I think you want to celebrate the ecstasy of falling in love. On the other hand, I think you want to say something about rebirth. I think these two themes are in tension with each other in the poem, and this tension is hinted at, but never resolved. I think sadness, as you point out, does have something to do with any final resolution. I think the same tension would of course be present in the original poem I wrote for you. 🤔
I like the “five men and elephant” fable you refer to, and agree that we are appreciating and/or describing different parts of the elephant! But good work overall. Very good work. I’m impressed. 😜
Snowphoenix says
The theme of my poem in response to yours —
1. Celebrating falling in love at all ages.
2. Everything is impermanent, matters and states of mind die soon or later, sadly.
3. Boredom could be reduced or killed by a broad variety of physical and mental activities.
4. Death of all forms always comes, so does rebirth. They circle end to end, thus In Etneral Flux; without one there won’t be the other.
I just could not help edit it again, thank you for spinning my head. Here is the 9th edition:
In Eternal Flux
After breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ash, then
rises again from the East,
spinning the panting dragon’s dizzy tail.
Mothers tell daughters: “Spread your wings!”
Fathers send offshoots on grand quests.
Refined women whisper their glorified tales,
Wise men hum their bragged conquests.
Courted in fields of green are young and renewed.
Coupled in summer dance in the blinding Glimmer.
Harvest passionfruit among colored leaves, then
hibernate once cold winds set in.
“Weary of noble deeds”,
knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of moonbeams,
maiden root exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter chant soaring.
Men and women are iron and wood.
Women and men are fire and earth.
Embraced each other in shared destiny
Interwoven together by the heavenly lyre.
Call me an idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods smirking, eyebrows raised.
I play well the harp of ecstasy.
The 9th Edition, 9/27/2023
Snowphoenix says
Have to change a couple of words again.
*******
In Eternal Flux
After breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ash, then
rises again from the East,
spinning the panting dragon’s dizzy tail.
Mothers tell daughters: “Spread your wings!”
Fathers send offshoots on grand quests.
Silver haired women whisper their glorified tales,
Bald headed men hum their bragged conquests.
Courted in fields of green are young and renewed.
Coupled in summer promise in the blinding glimmer.
Harvest passionfruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate once cold winds set in.
“Weary of noble deeds”,
knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of moonbeams,
maiden root exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter chant soaring.
Men and women are iron and wood.
Women and men are fire and earth.
Embraced each other in shared destiny
Interwoven together by the heavenly lyre.
Call me an idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods smirking, eyebrows raised.
I play well the harp of ecstasy.
*******
The 10th edition
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
It’s only getting better. A couple of tiny tweaks to bring out the themes you want… 😉
In Eternal Flux
After breathtaking fireworks,
Phoenix burns to ash, then
Rises again from the East.
The dragon goes into a tailspin.
Mothers tell daughters: “Spread your wings!”
Fathers send offshoots on grand quests.
Silver-haired women whisper tales of glory.
Bald-headed men brag of conquests.
Couples of all ages court in fields of green,
Glimmer at each other in gold light,
Harvest passionfruit among coloured leaves,
Hibernate once cold winds set in.
Renewed by noble deeds,
Knights pull out ugly weeds.
Energised by moonbeams,
Maidens sow exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter soar, chanting.
Men and women are iron and wood.
Women and men are earth and fire.
They embrace each other in shared delight,
Only to burn to ash on Love’s pyre.
Call me an idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods smirking, eyebrows raised.
I play well the harp of ecstasy.
Snowphoenix says
All Set! 🔨
Salute to your original inspiration, Sammy! 🏆
Keep coming!
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
I promise this is last edit — told you about my fuss over word choices, especially in verse. I usually stops anything after number 7 is involved.
**********
In Perpetual Flux
Only after breathtaking fireworks
phoenix burns to the ash, then
rise again from the East.
Her red gaze spins dragon’s head over tail
to hatch a batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden the wings.
Fathers send sprigs to their destined quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and renewed.
Couple in summer, bathed in genomic glimmers.
Harvest passionfruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
“Weary of noble deeds”,
knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of moonbeams,
maiden plant deep exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of chilly wind chant in soaring.
“The one you want won’t always shine.”
Then alter your gaze with refreshed eyes.
Men & women are iron and wood,
women & men fire and earth.
Interwoven by mingled insights,
they rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Mock my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in delight.
I hear harp of ecstasy melodically
stirring the strong heart beats.
*****
The 7th edition
Adam says
With debating in general, I found it is easier to do the older I get. I am ready to face obstacles and confront issues. I am not afraid of myself or others, as when I was younger. For instance, if in my 20’s I was limerent for someone and found out what limerence was I would never have told my wife. I would have hid my shame and took it to my grave.
But at 46 as soon as I learned about limerence I knew I needed to tell her. Partly for the sake of our marriage but also for the simple fact that I needed to confront her and myself so that we could overcome this.
Even in innocuous things I find that I will debate with her more than when I was younger. The Last Crusade is the best Indiana Jones movie. If you read Bram Stocker’s Dracula I will read Twilight. (This many years since that book came out and I read it and she still hasn’t read Dracula smh) We are pretty well on polar opposites on religion and politics. But we can debate that too. Two things I would never have much spoken up about when younger.
“In my COO, there is no neutral translation for “debate”, it’s equivalent to negative “argument” which is considered to automatically ruin that “sublime” harmony.”
Snowphoenix’s statement here is what got me thinking. For me the importance of debating, especially with Momma, is that it IS a debate and NOT an argument. And at a younger age I think that was part of the problem. I equated debate with argument. Coupled with never seeing my folks fight, much less raise their voices to each other, I shied away from anything I thought might upset her.
After the disclosure of my limerence and explanation to her and seeing her reaction, and even how she is still dealing with it now, that confrontation sometimes has to supersede feelings. Something I am always trying to protect her from getting hurt.
But like other addictions, I knew I couldn’t manage this one on my own. I sometimes can’t a frickin year later. So I tend to, unlike young me, talk it out with her. Debate if you will, if I am improving. Or am I backtracking? Before we use to fight about Morgan. Now my wife is able to, and I too without trying to justify it, debate my recovery of limerence and her.
I look back at all the times I should have taken on confrontation head on and would have got a better result in those instances. But … water under the bridge. Since I saw this online, I do not know if the siting is accurate but I saw that David Bowie said “Aging is just the process of becoming to person you always should have been.”
Snowphoenix says
@Adam
My point is that “demonizing debate” in my COO represses one’s authentic thoughts and emotions — one’s colorful, evolving humanity, for the sake of external, superficial harmony, which often cultivate inner volcano on some individuals. So once one could repress no longer, volcano would erupt causing not just detrimental arguments, but possibly damaging violences.
In the West, critical thinking and cool-headed debate is highly encouraged and supported for growth of individual and progress the society — all colleges have critical thinking courses, debate clubs, UN model debating delegates… I found it’s so liberating and even inspiring while rationally debating with others; it’s learned skills and writing is induce more calmness. After debating or confrontation, I obtain tremendous inner peace, regardless winning or losing; the therapeutic benefits come from courageously expressing one’s inner self — no absolute right or wrong.
David Bowie’s words are very organic and wise!
Sammy says
“Snowphoenix’s statement here is what got me thinking. For me the importance of debating, especially with Momma, is that it IS a debate and NOT an argument. And at a younger age I think that was part of the problem. I equated debate with argument. Coupled with never seeing my folks fight, much less raise their voices to each other, I shied away from anything I thought might upset her.”
@Adam.
I think the difference between a debate and an argument is one makes a sincere attempt to leave one’s ego at the door in genuine debating. One is not trying to settle old scores or shore up one’s own shaky self-esteem. One doesn’t have a hidden agenda. A debate is a pleasurable exchange of ideas. The focus, ideally, should be on the quality of the ideas, and not the character of speakers. 😉
IMHO says
to Adam and Mila, Nisor, ABCD and all, I start a new post here as comments getting lost and difficult to read. So please first read the link to original summary of my f2f encounter with long distance LO and Adams reply beneath.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-managing-competing-demands/#comment-46603
My Reply to Adams comment on
Sept 22nd:-
Thank you Adam , I like how you always relate your responses on what you know, and don’t pretend to have all the answers or solutions.
I’m still coming down from my trip away and very up and down with the whole damned limerence thing. I’m of course replaying the meetings in my mind.
Funny you talk of age, his SO looked much older than me or LO (and I’m a few years older than LO ). most folks including LO don’t know my age, I don’t share it freely as I’m a lot older than I look, although I’m sure this limerence is gonna age me soon !! Ha ha. I’m not vain though as a big round baby face looks younger but not necessarily beautiful!
I replay our departure and wish I had kissed him on the cheek goodbye or touched his hand. That’s very selfish thing to say I know. I was trying to be on best behaviour at the time, and if I had done those things I would probably regret it. It’s just the whole one moment in time lost forever thing! If I saw him more often Im sure it wouldn’t be so damned intense. I know my situation is the highest setting for both uncertainty + barriers. Anyway my feelings for him are now a bit more real after our meeting ( less pedestal, less mad passion). But more caring and loving- oh my, is that worse?! I am really going to try for long distance friendship which will anyway mean LC and hopefully feelings become more platonic. But at some point I do realise that I may have to evaluate my true intentions / feelings.
Mila says
IMHO,
(Caution: I‘m a bit blunt today. I don’t mean it mean, I just care.)
Sounds as if this visit just threw you more into limerence.
I recognize the signs because I know them from myself- your description of the visit sounds a bit like a romantic film (chance encounter at the stage, waving goodbye in the street, crying on the plane), and I can feel how you scrutinize his every move (heart emoji, eye contact, waving etc) because you hope they are a sign that he cares more than just a friend would, you go a little bit into competition with his SO and are secretly glad to see some things in your favor…
Even the turning of emotions from pedestal to more caring, I recognize that from myself. It’s not necessarily better;)
I feel you!!:)
But! Get the pink fog of emotion out of your eyes: Honestly, what do you wish to happen? Signs of affection, of liking you that but more, and then? Will he move to your country, will you move to his? no? will you lead an online EA that keeps you from getting some real love in your real life?
I know it feels good now, you are safely back and have some memories to chew over, do that, but please let there be a time limit to that.
You will waste your precious life time pining after this guy who couldn’t invite you to a proper coffee date on your one one only visit, either because he just doesn’t care enough or because his SO would mind, both not really positive reasons.
Clear your eyes and ask yourself honestly 1. if you embellish the signs of affection from his side, 2. if you really think you only want friendship of this guy. You don’t sound like it. If you really want to turn this into a normal friendship, you have to stop the ruminating and place your mind elsewhere.
That said, I‘m no better myself.
Song of my LE (hope I manage to post it):
https://youtu.be/jb5g4UFHmfQ?feature=shared
IMHO says
Mila, thank you ! Allow me to read, re-read and reflect on your words of wisdom… I will respond properly in the next day or so X 💕
Mila says
IMHO,
it‘s all Dr.Ls wisdom;)
It seems to finally arrive fully in my brain.
Today I‘m quite hopeful to put an end at least to my current LE soon..
IMHO says
Mila, Nisor, thank you both for your responses and support. It helps to have the conversation and analysis with those who understand. Blunt is good btw. Im trying to now look forwards and not chew over memories etc. Also need to be more practical , do grown-up stuff and not caught up in my own ridiculous fantasy land / movie as you said. Like you Mila I want LO in my life, no limerence. I need to break some habits and thought patterns to get there. seems like you are making progress – yey!! Keep it up and share any tips.
Thanks for the song links both. I’m trying not to listen to too much music actually, as it just fuels my limerence and thoughts of LO. There are 2 songs that remind me of LO too much, it sets me back just thinking of them !
Nisor says
Hi IMHO,
Glad meeting is over? Indeed, friends invite you for lunch or supper when visiting their country, it’s a courtesy. Of course it
must hurt plenty saying goodbye and not knowing if you’ll ever see LO again, it stings! I haven’t seen mine in fifty years and it feels like it was yesterday when I saw him last!!! Ouch it dammed hurts…
About comparing yourself to his SO, yep, that’s normal, limerents and non limerents do it all the time. I never saw my lo’s first, second or third (and last) wives, lovers in between, and I hope they’re nothing compared to me. ha, ha. I hope they’re fat, loud, sloppy etc, that he got them just because he had no other choice, that what he found in me, he’s been trying to find it in them but he can’t! That I’m the best he ever had!!! That how selfish I’m… if I think otherwise I’d feel rejected and I don’t want to harbor that feeling in me, it will make me depressed . I have to look after myself right?
It’s all right to cry, there’s no other way to get it out of your system. It’s sad, very sad , and things are in limbo for you. You got to examine yourself and see if this LO is going to wither you away… not worth it. Got to move on, I believe.
There’s a song I like , to compare me with los So.
Singer Lou Rowls ,
“You’ll never find someone to love you like I do.” Look it up it has a nice swing and lyrics.
Now, You take good care of yourself. A tight hug for you. Cheer up, tomorrow is another day!💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽❤️
Nisor says
Correction:
Song : “You’ll never find another love like mine”
Lou Rawls sings
Nisor says
Hi Mila,
I love the song, beautiful!
Makes me very sentimental and remember my last time with my beloved LO…
Have a great weekend
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
You left me some comments in the “Incompatible Limerent Objects” post, which were drifting toward general conversation, so I’ll respond to them here and hopefully you will find them.
I think you wanted me not to mix metaphors when talking about limerence? I was talking about mountain climbing and then I segued into talking about shipwrecks. So I’ll try to be consistent in the following observations regarding limerence.
Being limerent for someone is like a climbing a mountain. However, one is not climbing this mountain in broad daylight. One is in a foreign country, on holidays perhaps. One hears a rap on one’s door at 2am, an invitation to scale a nearby summit. One accepts this invitation. One will reach the summit at dawn, and perhaps witness a gorgeous sunrise if one is lucky. But if one goes up the mountain in darkness, one must go down the mountain in daylight, because dawn has broken.
In other words, coming out of limerence is like walking down a mountain in broad daylight – a mountain that one has hitherto only seen shrouded in darkness. One might be much less impressed with the mountain in broad daylight i.e. dopamine isn’t making every little detail seem sublimely beautiful. Whatever glorious impressions one formed in one’s mind during ascent must now yield to reality.
Your other complaint: I sometimes blend dream imagery with other imagery, making my writing confusing at times. I’m sorry for blending dream imagery with everyday imagery, but I think limerence is a kind of liminal (threshold) state, in which one is half-dreaming and half-awake, so it’s only natural that dream imagery should begin to pervade all things, and colour one’s consciousness.
While in limerence, one can no longer at will shift gears between “dream state” and “awakened state”, because the boundaries between the two states have become blurred, even in the mind of the limerent, and that’s why limerence is called an “altered state”. One isn’t experiencing reality in the same way other people are. One is perhaps having a heightened experienced of reality, and also a somewhat confused experience of reality. Objectivity pretty much goes out the window. 😉
Last, I said I was a natural flirt. Perhaps I should rephrase that, because what I wanted to say was/is actually a lot more subtle, and reveals something about the sexes. I’ll tell you a sweet little story from my life to illustrate what I mean.
Today, I ate breakfast in a little cafe I frequent. The woman behind the counter asked me what I wanted to eat. Then she guessed I wanted grilled tomato with my meal. I didn’t want grilled tomato. I was actually planning to ask for wilted spinach. However, I’m a very polite fellow, so I told the woman I wanted wilted spinach, but she was welcome to pick what item ultimately ended up on my plate. I didn’t plan this response – it just flew out of my mouth, without premeditation.
In the end, I got the wilted spinach I actually wanted. However, the woman came out with my coffee several minutes later, all flustered. She told me my comment i.e. “you pick” was actually really funny to her and made her blush. I laughed politely in response to this revelation, and the woman went away.
Now, it was never my intention to flirt with this woman. I think the last time I made a female blush was twenty-six years ago, when I was still in high school, and I asked some girl to be my Valentine. My comment to the waitress was simply me being super-agreeable, ridiculously easy-going. Really, what I was saying was: “I don’t care what I eat. As long if it’s edible, I’ll eat it. Heck, even if it’s not edible, I’ll probably still eat it.” (I was being a stereotypical insufferable boor of a man).
So why did the woman interpret my comment as vaguely flirtatious, or at least unusual enough to elicit a blush? Why did the shortness of my reply, the possible hint of anger or impatience in my voice, excite her on some level and not offend her or push her away? Was I giving off some kind of vibe without knowing it?
Here’s my theory about the woman’s reaction, because it’s interesting in purely sociological terms. I believe that men have a “romantic imagination”, for want of a better term, and women have a “romantic imagination”, for want of a better term. Usually, whatever it is that lights up a man’s romantic imagination isn’t the same thing as whatever it is that lights up a woman’s romantic imagination. In other words, put very bluntly but at the same time very respectfully, what a woman finds erotic isn’t necessarily the same thing as a man finds erotic.
In other words, when it comes to Eros, men and women have different triggers. By telling this woman she could pick out my breakfast for me, I was accidentally pushing some of her emotional buttons, and activating her romantic imagination. However, I really didn’t find anything about our interaction exciting.
As an empathic person, I can see how the woman may have read into my comments, however. In a way, I was sort of inviting her to play an almost girlfriend/wife role in my life. I was signalling to her that I didn’t really mind her crossing my boundaries and that I trusted her judgement. None of the above is remotely titillating to the average male brain, but to a human being blessed with a female brain, it might be a tiny bit intriguing, especially if one likes the man in question.
I think I have had difficulties in the past getting along with women because male psychology can sometimes be quite crude whereas female psychology can be quite sophisticated. For a man to be successful in attracting and keeping a woman as a long-term mate, he has to have some understanding of women’s desires. Or, alternatively, the woman has to be extremely forgiving by nature, and reconcile herself to the fact that her long-term male mate doesn’t understand her desires.
Long story short: I think men’s “mating triggers” are primarily physical, at least initially, whereas women’s “mating triggers” are invariably relational. When a given woman imagines herself in a relationship with a given man, her romantic circuitry lights up. She starts to get excited, invested. Men, at least in the beginning, don’t usually pick up on relational triggers, or respond to relational triggers, and hence miscommunicate with women – even available women. 😉
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy,
Thank you for taking time to answer my already forgotten message left a few days ago. I’m writing storm here nowadays, unable to remember all of what I’ve contemplated and expressed. Hope they’re consistent, as I am also trying to sort of my still jammed, muddled mind.
“In other words, coming out of limerence is like walking down a mountain in broad daylight – a mountain that one has hitherto only seen shrouded in darkness. One might be much less impressed with the mountain in broad daylight i.e. dopamine isn’t making every little detail seem sublimely beautiful. Whatever glorious impressions one formed in one’s mind during ascent must now yield to reality.”
That’s beautiful and accurate metaphor to describe an experience of limerence. Then, can we still appreciate or even love what the objective mountain is under the sunlight? Isn’t it a part of nature after all?
“I’m sorry for blending dream imagery with everyday imagery, but I think limerence is a kind of liminal (threshold) state, in which one is half-dreaming and half-awake, so it’s only natural that dream imagery should begin to pervade all things, and colour one’s consciousness.”
If one is already OUT of limerence — not in that altered mental state, looking back and writing about the experience, wouldn’t the writing need to “objectively” describe dream scenes or dream quality of limerence, instead of still a sort “living“ in or swinging”between dreams and reality? In another word, don’t writers (or artists)need to be observers, presenting their writings (paintings) to readers as “logical” as possible? Some modern literature genre has that dream quality as a part of writing, but limerence is already confusing enough in each unique case, so if not “rationally” portrayed in distance, then even a limerent reader may get confused. But I may be wrong on this.
“While in limerence, one can no longer at will shift gears between “dream state” and “awakened state”, because the boundaries between the two states have become blurred, even in the mind of the limerent, and that’s why limerence is called an “altered state”. One isn’t experiencing reality in the same way other people are. One is perhaps having a heightened experienced of reality, and also a somewhat confused experience of reality. Objectivity pretty much goes out the window. “
Totally true, that’s why I’m still worried about how logical my mind is at present, since I’m still in the last leg of LE. But you’re already OUT, right? We are here to trust and learn from your insights, in writing, that are clearly depicted.
Last, I said I was a natural flirt. Perhaps I should rephrase that, because what I wanted to say was/is actually a lot more subtle, and reveals something about the sexes.”
Your story of ordering food is very vivid and convincing of your points, I’d love your flirt in this scenario as well. Besides her female brain, I think you might have also provoked her motherly instinct that wants to take care of anyone, especially attractive sex of one’s interest, who is willing to listen and submit to her judgment. It’s an indirect, tasteful flattery, showing you liked her.
“In other words, put very bluntly but at the same time very respectfully, what a woman finds erotic isn’t necessarily the same thing as a man finds erotic.”
“In other words, when it comes to Eros, men and women have different triggers. “
It’s a hard-learned truth for me, due to my nurtured or “coerced” masculinity. I felt embarrassed or “sissy” to think or behave “womanly”, despite I look quite feminine. I was confused and sometimes repelled by a lot of “erotic” looks directed towards me. Before coming to LwL recently, I barely knew let alone understood the science behind lust, attraction, and attachment.
“For a man to be successful in attracting and keeping a woman as a long-term mate, he has to have some understanding of women’s desires. Or, alternatively, the woman has to be extremely forgiving by nature, and reconcile herself to the fact that her long-term male mate doesn’t understand her desires.”
Yes. Without male’s understanding of women’s psychology, and willingness to grow and renew, and without women’s compromise, forgiveness and willingness to self learning & improving, a long-term relationship could hardly last, such as my marriage; I was so young and naive.
Long story short: I think men’s “mating triggers” are primarily physical, at least initially, whereas women’s “mating triggers” are invariably relational.”
In general, it’s true. But women’s focus could also be drawn by men’s physiques with their inexpressible aura, although they may not clearly aware of it. My eyes were somehow keen on this since young.
“When a given woman imagines herself in a relationship with a given man, her romantic circuitry lights up. She starts to get excited, invested. “
Yes, it is the imagination that lights up her romantic circuitry. We female limerents could even “create” another altered universe on this all in our head!
Men, at least in the beginning, don’t usually pick up on relational triggers, or respond to relational triggers, and hence miscommunicate with women – even available women.
In general, men are more visual, aloof and possessive, instead of relational. Only a few with their creative streaks or talents are highly sensitive, imaginary, and relational, shown in their artistic creation, like “fussy” Proust.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“Then, can we still appreciate or even love what the objective mountain is under the sunlight? Isn’t it a part of nature after all?”
Dunno. Depends if mountains are something you appreciate in general, or if you’re only climbing the mountain to get to the sunrise i.e. the reward the tour guide promised you. (In other words, what’s important to you? The task or the reward? If there’s no reward, would you still wish to complete the task? Would you still find the task intrinsically rewarding?) 🤔
“If one is already OUT of limerence — not in that altered mental state, looking back and writing about the experience, wouldn’t the writing need to “objectively” describe dream scenes or dream quality of limerence, instead of still a sort “living“ in or swinging”between dreams and reality?”
“But you’re already OUT, right?”
Well, in all fairness, maybe I’m not completely OUT of limerence. But, the way I see it, I’m OUT enough to regain a feeling of equilibrium, a feeling of inner peace, a feeling of secure emotional footing. I’m OUT enough to feel that I am in full possession of my senses. 😆
I can explain things in very practical terms, if you like. In high school, I was strongly attracted to two different young men. Perhaps both young men were my LOs. (I was limerent for the first for a time and chased him unsuccessfully before transferring quite unintentionally to the second. I remained fixated on the second until quite recently despite prolonged no contact).
Limerence is compulsory longing. I no longer experience compulsory longing for either male. Both young men (now much-older men) are married. Both men have families I would imagine, and careers, and community ties. I’m happy they’re married. I’m happy they have families. I don’t feel like I have “unfinished business” with either gentleman. 😉
In other words, I say I’m OUT of limerence (at least for these two specific males) because I now feel emotionally free, emotionally liberated. I no longer feel emotionally enslaved. My thoughts don’t revolve around these two men, and the various ways I might either attract them or emulate them. The strong feeling of betrayal and bitterness I had in my mid-20s have evaporated, and been replaced with a ready sense of humour.
I suggest that I’m exiting the “altered state” of limerence for good as I age because I still spend time around charming men who are my “type” and yet the dopamine hits are few and far between. I can’t get the “high feeling” from being around attractive males who are kind to me. The desire to fantasise is greatly reduced because my brain no longer rewards fantasies with generous quantities of dopamine. I find it easy to talk to “hot guys” because nerves don’t get in the way and I can read signals okay now.
Basically, if some activity ceases to be rewarding for a given human being, that given human being will naturally cease engaging in said activity. I believe I’m exiting the altered state of limerence in the sense that the “reward centres” of my brain are no longer rewarding me for certain behaviours that previously I found very rewarding, or even exclusively rewarding. I don’t dream about LOs any more than I dream about chocolate biscuits, although I still appreciate the odd chocolate biscuit. 😆
But limerence is complicated too as a mental state. If we think of limerence as a race to be run, it’s a race with no clear starting line and no clear finish line. In other words, you don’t know EXACTLY when you began to run this race, though you might be able to hazard a pretty good guess. (Puberty?)
And you don’t know exactly when you’ve crossed the finish line either…
Limerence is a threshold state, as I said before, a liminal state. So there’s aren’t clean breaks between “pre-limerence”, “limerence”. and “post-limerence”. Just as the progression of limerence itself doesn’t feel linear to many people in the throes of it i.e. there’s a lot of self-questioning, a lot of mental back-and-forth, a lot of going around in circles, etc.
Let’s use another metaphor. Limerence is a forest and limerents get themselves lost in that forest. But most limerents can’t say when exactly they left the open field and entered the forest or when exactly they left the forest and found themselves again back in the field, gazing up at the clear blue sky. 😉
Maybe it was a misty evening the evening the limerent wandered into the forest? Maybe the limerent didn’t notice all those tall trees closing in around her, and darkness falling? And vice versa, of course. Maybe the limerent left the forest one foggy morning and didn’t notice the grass until he miraculously stopped bumping into tree stumps every three seconds?
Honestly, though, I don’t think I could exit the altered state at will, even if I wanted to, when i was younger, because I feel my brain was still maturing. I feel the immaturity of my brain and limerence were somehow linked. That is to say, up until age 40, I was still seeing the world and other people in a childish/childlike way despite no longer chronologically being a child.
“Some modern literature genre has that dream quality as a part of writing, but limerence is already confusing enough in each unique case, so if not “rationally” portrayed in distance, then even a limerent reader may get confused. But I may be wrong on this.”
I don’t know if limerence can be captured objectivity in art. I think writers can portray characters experiencing infatuation. I think infatuation can inspire some people to create creative works, which may or may not contain limerence-related themes. Maybe an LO an inspire a character so vivid (or so irritating) that said character gets to live on in posterity… 🙄
Limerence isn’t something that I’ve sought to portray objectively. Limerence is not something I seek to write about in retrospect, although sometimes, to other people, my writing might seem to have that intent. I certainly don’t know everything about limerence. If anything, limerence is something I’ve written myself THROUGH, as far as poetry is concerned. In the very act of writing itself, I throw off the shackles of obsession, one by one. But, of course, there are a lot of false starts and a lot of missteps. One can never obtain absolute closure. Perhaps closure is really the wrong aim?
Actually, I usually write about things which at same point have inspired feelings of ecstasy in me, because the ecstasy makes those things seem special/meaningful to me, if not to other people. “Ecstasy” seems to be my guide when choosing things to write about, and not limerence per se.
“Totally true, that’s why I’m still worried about how logical my mind is at present …”
I wouldn’t worry too much about being logical if you’re still quite a young person. You have plenty of time to grow up. And maybe certain parts of limerence should be enjoyed in moderation, because the dazzling array of emotions won’t come again, and you will never live life this vividly again. Having said that, if a given infatuation is causing you distress, or if you feel a particular LO is a wildly inappropriate choice, you need to address that in a way that causes minimal disruption to your life overall. 🤔
Snowphoenix says
“(In other words, what’s important to you? The task or the reward? If there’s no reward, would you still wish to complete the task? Would you still find the task intrinsically rewarding?)
For some people, the final destination is not the reward, but the task itself. If one enjoy process of the task, then the final achievement is just a bonus. Farmers do best and enjoy planting and caring for crops, but they can only hope for harvest due to unpredictable nature, there is no guarantee. Some mental health branch advocate the rewarding process, not aims.
All of us take different train rides of life and our shared destiny is just one — graveyard. one’s better to enjoy his or her chosen train rides.
“I don’t know if limerence can be captured objectivity in art. I think writers can portray characters experiencing infatuation. I think infatuation can inspire some people to create creative works, which may or may not contain limerence-related themes. Maybe an LO can inspire a character so vivid (or so irritating) that said character gets to live on in posterity…”
I want to know your opinion on Annie Ernaux’s “Simple Passion” — a very short read, to see if it’s about a story of limerence and, why do you think, she writes out such confessional work?
“If anything, limerence is something I’ve written myself THROUGH, as far as poetry is concerned. In the very act of writing itself, I throw off the shackles of obsession, one by one”
Does Ernaux describe her passion clearly enough or write her “THROUGH” her experience? How does she throw off her “shackles of obsession”?
“One can never obtain absolute closure. Perhaps closure is really the wrong aim?”
By my own experiences, one can obtain closure through either total consummation (emotional/sexual reciprocation or marriage), transference (to another LO or a creation/invention, or starvation (due to LO’s hurtful behaviors, but not one’s involuntary choice — what one resists persists. )
“Actually, I usually write about things which at same point have inspired feelings of ecstasy in me, because the ecstasy makes those things seem special/meaningful to me, if not to other people. “Ecstasy” seems to be my guide when choosing things to write about, and not limerence per se.”
You just used the different words to describe the creative drive for Dante or Goethe — their ecstasy of seeing or knowing their LOs somewhat, regardless the latter’s non-reciprocation or even despise towards them.
“And maybe certain parts of limerence should be enjoyed in moderation, because the dazzling array of emotions won’t come again, and you will never live life this vividly again.”
That is where my fear lies.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“For some people, the final destination is not the reward, but the task itself. If one enjoy process of the task, then the final achievement is just a bonus.”
The idea of intrinsically rewarding tasks is an interesting one, and one that frequently stupefies me. But many things in life stupefy me. I.e. I struggle to find tasks that feel “intrinsically rewarding”.
Some teachers, for example, teach merely to collect a wage. Other teachers teach because they have a passion for the job, or feel a real affinity with the students they help, even though the pay may be mediocre.
I do find talking on LwL quite rewarding sometimes. I think it’s because I enjoy playing around with complex ideas, I have a chance to show off my knowledge and writing skills, and I’m being inspired by people from all walks of life, so there’s social recognition of some kind involved. My natural personality does seem to come out too. Maybe I’m slowly learning how to – **shudder** – be part of a group? 🤣
I think people who “love their jobs” are really plugged into the social networks connected to their jobs. It’s the relationships cultivated over time and a sense of shared purpose that ultimately prove most rewarding. Also, people probably have to believe that the work they do actually matters, and confers status. 😉
“I want to know your opinion on Annie Ernaux’s “Simple Passion” — a very short read, to see if it’s about a story of limerence and, why do you think, she writes out such confessional work?”
I haven’t read “Simple Passion”. If I were going to read it, would I have to get a copy from a library or bookshop or is it available online? What’s your initial impressions of the work? Do you feel the author is penning a confessional tale about limerence, and wonder why she’d ever consider doing something so bold? 🤔
My limerence was unrequited limerence, fruitless limerence, one-sided limerence. So when one reads my comments, one must keep that in mind. In other words, for me, it was always going to be highly desirable to “throw off the shackles of obsession”. For people in mutual limerence, the need for emancipation might not be so pressing. Some lovers might want to loiter in the warm glow of evening sun and drink deep from the well of shared ecstasy. They don’t want to wake up from the beautiful, beautiful dream. 😉
Tell me something, Snowphoenix. Does Annie Ernaux’s work, in your opinion, portray one-sided limerence or reciprocated limerence? If she portrays reciprocated limerence, I would imagine her work to be a celebration of love, no? Or does she have much more nuanced feelings regarding infatuation? I.e. does she perceive infatuation as an unqualified good or does she also explore the pain that comes with longing?
“By my own experiences, one can obtain closure through either total consummation (emotional/sexual reciprocation or marriage), transference (to another LO or a creation/invention, or starvation (due to LO’s hurtful behaviors, but not one’s involuntary choice — what one resists persists. )”
Interesting, interesting. To be completely honest, I didn’t get closure on either LE, despite the first ending due to (unintentional) transference and the second ending due to (reluctant, semi-intentional) starvation. In other words, I never got a satisfactory answer to the (never-asked) question: “I love you. And I know that you know I love you. But how do you feel about me?” 😊
If I may discuss limerence-inspired writing briefly here, I did create a character based on my LO. But it wasn’t my first LO and it wasn’t my second LO. Basically, what I did was sort of smoosh these two different men together into one person. The resulting character therefore is a composite of two different men.
I also think I poured a lot of myself into the character. I think about 80% of the character is me, which lends credence to the notion that our LOs are really just anima/animus projected outwards.
A few years ago, I met a young man who in real life seemed to be a combination of LO1 and LO2. But he didn’t become LO3. Rather, by analysing this third man, I was able to understand why I was attracted to the first two men. You could say that I projected my animus entire onto the third young men. 😁
To this day, I remain on friendly terms with this third young man, but there’s no obsession. He has the physical charms of my first LO and the intoxicating personality of my second (main) LO. But, for the longest time, I couldn’t bring myself to speak to this third young man. I used to always try to leave places when he wasn’t around, because I was too embarrassed to say hello or goodbye to him.
This third young man was quite friendly toward me always, and he persisted in his friendly overtures. Eventually, I started returning his waves and his smiles and his eye contact and his thumbs-up. Eventually, I acquired the ability to talk to him about mundane subjects. Ultimately, I also acquired the ability to mock him to his face in a way that was inoffensive somehow and which he clearly enjoyed. In other words, something that might have become a dangerous, painful obsession turned into homosocial bonding. He still has piercingly beautiful eyes, but they don’t unsettle me.
“You just used the different words to describe the creative drive for Dante or Goethe — their ecstasy of seeing or knowing their LOs somewhat, regardless the latter’s non-reciprocation or even despise towards them.”
Ah. Cool. Very interesting. I think my original intention in writing about anything that inspired ecstasy was to make sense of my sexuality. From quite early on in life, I always had a hunch that “ecstasy” and “sexuality” are somehow linked. But I couldn’t explain that link until I learned about limerence…
“That is where my fear lies.”
Limerence isn’t a choice. So you can’t really “choose” the pain. And you can’t really “choose” the feeling of aliveness that comes with the pain. The “vivid experience of reality” is nice too, but you can’t really choose that.
I was shocked when I graduated from high school and a platonic male friend told me he envied my creative writing because in my creative writing the grass is always “sparkling green”, or some such rubbish. I was a bit offended by the remark. I didn’t know what he was on about. I assumed grass looks “sparkling green” to everybody, and there’s nothing unusual about such a description.
Little did I know I was already deep in the thick of limerence, and it was altering my experience of reality. I didn’t possess the “vivid imagination” people accused me of possessing. The chemicals in my brain actually made the natural world look really beautiful to me and altered the way my eyes (and other sensory organs) took in the world. I wasn’t trying to be different. I was just … different. 🙄
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
“Some teachers, for example, teach merely to collect a wage. Other teachers teach because they have a passion for the job, or feel a real affinity with the students they help, even though the pay may be mediocre.”
I’m the latter all my life, just can’t do something fairly important that my heart is not passionate about, except for basic survival.
“I do find talking on LwL quite rewarding sometimes. I think it’s because I enjoy playing around with complex ideas, I have a chance to show off my knowledge and writing skills, and I’m being inspired by people from all walks of life, so there’s social recognition of some kind involved. My natural personality does seem to come out too. Maybe I’m slowly learning how to – **shudder** – be part of a group? “
At beginning, I was unwilling to expose my limerence in LwL, feeling so embarrassed as if I had chosen it. Then, I found I could express thus release my repressed confusions and frustration related to limerence, which led to my mental clarity, less heaviness in chest. There are also other complex, important, and LE-unrelated topics in life are discussed here, which stirred up my curiosity about my own current stands in those issues.
Writing itself is very therapeutic to me, which I already benefited from monologues with LO with little or none response in the past 2 years. With any response here, I felt heard by the fellow limerents; it’s such a relief to know that I was not alone and had not gone insane for 6 years! As personality concerned, I seemed to be always fluid, ready to upgrade or individuate. If I feel I’m already done with personal growth, then it would be the time to die.
Even without recognizing my altered mental state in limerence, I was eager to explore more aspect of SELF that was repressed or affected by cptsd. I did not want to ignorantly suffer continuously, and knew that only MYSELF could and have to find ways to battle with whatever was causing my pains, and eventually remove their roots.
Pains can come from without, but suffering are generated within and have to be removed from within. Wise, external insights could help a great deal with their different perspectives seeing and understanding the same elephant; but the hard work and efforts of curing sufferings still need to be made by oneself internally.
“I think people who “love their jobs” are really plugged into the social networks connected to their jobs.”
Mostly but not always. Few people enjoy explore outside of their professional circle for freshness or “queer” views. Curiosity, open mind, quirkiness in people often draw my attentions.
I haven’t read “Simple Passion”. If I were going to read it, would I have to get a copy from a library or bookshop or is it available online?”
You can get a kindle copy from Amazon easily. It has only 60 pages.
“What’s your initial impressions of the work? Do you feel the author is penning a confessional tale about limerence, and wonder why she’d ever consider doing something so bold?”
I was almost shocked by her authentic boldness. I read it before I knew LwL, and afterwards immediately recognized it was a limerence experience. Along with her collected works of very personal nature, she wins Nobel Prize in literature at age of 82, amazing!
“Tell me something, Snowphoenix. Does Annie Ernaux’s work, in your opinion, portray one-sided limerence or reciprocated limerence? If she portrays reciprocated limerence, I would imagine her work to be a celebration of love, no?”
It’s PA involved, yet her one-sided limerence with a married man. She first enjoyed sex as much as a woman could; (Marcia would like it), then her emotional and realistic life was almost ruined by her unaware off-set limerence, depression and neglect of the responsibilities as a single mother, a university professor, and a write. It’s her True story happened outside Paris around 1991(?).
“Or does she have much more nuanced feelings regarding infatuation? I.e. does she perceive infatuation as an unqualified good or does she also explore the pain that comes with longing?”
It’s not the kind of perceived infatuation with the typical one-side limerence, but a heated PA, casual on his side, but unintentionally serious on her side. She knows it would end soon or later and prepares for it. She thinks she could enjoy the physical consummation when it lasts, while his mental and emotional reciprocation are absent, but limerence sneaked in without her knowing what and why was happening … no more spoiler!
“In other words, I never got a satisfactory answer to the (never-asked) question: “I love you. And I know that you know I love you. But how do you feel about me?”
What would you feel if the answer is YES or NO? What do you think you need an answer for? To validate our existence? To boost our ego? Why would LO’s emotions towards us be so vitally important to our mental health? I ask myself these questions, and am not sure whether it’s wise to ask.
Whether to disclose or close the current LE, I don’t think I need (of course I want) to ask LO your question, what’s the point? Even a favorable answer would not change the dead end dynamic. My ego might be boosted for a little while — 3 days maximum, but I would still feel terribly lonely, probably lonelier, without his pair-bonding with me. If his answer is unfavorable, it should not devalue my personality or existence; it just means I was shot by Eros’ arrow for him, but not him for me — call it a “fate” for convenience. Am I mature enough to accept such a fate in life, parallel to what happened between me and all my previous suitors and LOs (in 2 digits)?
“If I may discuss limerence-inspired writing briefly here, I did create a character based on my LO. But it wasn’t my first LO and it wasn’t my second LO. Basically, what I did was sort of smoosh these two different men together into one person. The resulting character therefore is a composite of two different men.”
I don’t see any problems in that. The story should be focused more on your feelings and thoughts, and roots of your healthy affections and limerence. Remember what DrL says: all our LOs are just bystanders serving as a trigger or mirror, triggering or mirroring something unknown or “mysterious” within us previously. LE forces us to deeply examine ourselves within: Who am I now? Where am I heading? Why and How have I slipped into this unwanted, volcanic limerence?
“I also think I poured a lot of myself into the character. I think about 80% of the character is me, which lends credence to the notion that our LOs are really just anima/animus projected outwards.”
As a Jungian follower, I thought of that, too, and even unknowingly (of such notion) told LO once that he might somehow present my Animus if I felt such familiarity upon spotting him for 5 seconds. But in reality, I don’t know his inside enough, so unable to tell whether he indeed represents my animus. In some aspects, he appears very different from me. He is absolutely evasive towards all my meaningful inquirers, but seemed not get offended.
“Rather, by analysing this third man, I was able to understand why I was attracted to the first two men. You could say that I projected my animus entire onto the third young men. “
So you are saying that if someone clearly represents your animus, by your analytic👁️, you could avoid falling in limerence with him?
“I think my original intention in writing about anything that inspired ecstasy was to make sense of my sexuality. From quite early on in life, I always had a hunch that “ecstasy” and “sexuality” are somehow linked. But I couldn’t explain that link until I learned about limerence….”
Without knowledge about neurochemical aspect of limerence, I always thought “ecstasy” is connected to spirit, not sex because the latter in my COO was linked to animal or “evil” craving.
“Limerence isn’t a choice. So you can’t really “choose” the pain. And you can’t really “choose” the feeling of aliveness that comes with the pain. The “vivid experience of reality” is nice too, but you can’t really choose that.”
Now, I know limerence, like other feelings including pains, isn’t choice. But Buddhism sees that while pains are not a choice, suffering is: if one does not passively react to those inadvertent physical and psychological pains from within and without, then sufferings could be avoided.
Also, another argument stands that all reality is perceived by mind, so only subjective; therefore, two subjectivities toward a same matter could vastly different in the mind of our LOs and ourselves. Never assume they’re same or even similar.
“I wasn’t trying to be different. I was just … different. “
The same here. We need shamelessly embrace our own “differences” while respect that of others.
“One’s LO may be a good person. One’s LO may be a bad person. One’s LO may be a so-so person. It really doesn’t matter what kind of person one’s LO is. What matters is this person – the LO – has taken on a staggering “emotional significance” in the life and mind of the limerent.
True. In my case, it’s not even LO, but the Phantom of LO, or my unreasonable desire for LO, that “has taken on a staggering emotional significance” in my life. Sometimes it felt like that LO did not enter my conscious life, but he came from my unconscious somehow through the glimmer — it’s that degree of familiarity and alienation! It also “lends credence to the notion that our LOs are really just anima/animus projected outwards.”
“In one-sided limerence, the feelings aren’t returned, so the limerent doesn’t have a staggering emotional significance for the LO, and the LO may not be aware of the emotional significance they have for the limerent.”
Well, I think even when the limerent’s emotions aren’t returned, some of us still have a staggering emotional significance for LO, but we hide and repress our emotions. Most of LOs, in LwL, seem to be aware of “the emotional significance they have installed in their limerent”, because most of us are poor concealers or over-sharing confessors. Plus, our eyes have revealed a lot what we fear to expose.
“Even if disclosure takes place in the second scenario, the LO may not understand the implications of the limerent’s disclosure i.e. they still may not grasp the strength of the limerent’s “crush”, the intensity of desire involved, the size of the stakes. (Hint: winning LO’s affection is the only thing that matters to the limerent).”
As long as LOs are ignorant of the conception of limerence, they WILL not “grasp the strength of the limerent’s “crush”…. If I choose to disclose to LO about my limerence with him, I’ll have to give him a copy of DrL’s book to read first.
“In making any decisions, I think it’s very important for limerents to remember that they may not hold the same emotional significance for their LOs as their LOs hold for them. “
As Marcia has repeatedly point out, if LO were in mutual loving affection for limerent, she or he would have already acted out, whether barriers existed or not, like what my middle-school classmate attempted. If they have done nothing, not even hint, then just believe they don’t have that glimmer or our dreamed affections for us limerents.
“The biggest mistake limerents can make is assuming that both parties are on the same page regarding emotional significance and assign the exact same significance to the “bond”.
As a semi Stoic, I don’t make such an assumption with realistic LO, I take the worst for a fact and practice how to cope with such an assumed fact. But the created Phantom is on the same page with me doing whatever I have wished, and has even inspire me to make friends and bonds with you guys here!
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“Then, I found I could express thus release my repressed confusions and frustration related to limerence, which led to my mental clarity, less heaviness in chest.”
I’ve been feeling “less heaviness in chest” lately. I think the feeling of “less heaviness” comes from (a) identifying and sharing one’s emotions about limerence, and (b) admitting that one had a dream that didn’t quote come true. 🤔
“It’s PA involved, yet her one-sided limerence with a married man. She first enjoyed sex as much as a woman could; (Marcia would like it), then her emotional and realistic life was almost ruined by her unaware off-set limerence, depression and neglect of the responsibilities as a single mother, a university professor, and a write. It’s her True story happened outside Paris around 1991(?).”
That sounds like a very powerful piece of writing. There’s a real interaction between two people, but it means so much more to one party. So, yes, plenty of room for nuance and plenty of room for angst. 😉
“What would you feel if the answer is YES or NO? What do you think you need an answer for? To validate our existence? To boost our ego? Why would LO’s emotions towards us be so vitally important to our mental health? I ask myself these questions, and am not sure whether it’s wise to ask.”
Interesting. Nobody has ever asked me how I’d feel if the answer was yes or no. I don’t think the answers would have much to do with ego. Nor would the answer be vital to my mental health. I think I’d have a purely emotional response.
If the answer were NO, I’d feel extremely hurt, and probably cry nonstop for a couple of days.
If the answer were YES, I’d probably feel intensely happy for a period of time. But eventually I’d have to come down off cloud nine. The burst of sunshine wouldn’t last indefinitely…
“How have I slipped into this unwanted, volcanic limerence?”
I think, because I was experiencing limerence from a young age, I thought everybody experienced limerence. I assumed that everybody gets feelings of ecstasy and the triggers for that ecstasy must be pretty similar. (What makes me “high” makes other people “high” too). I assumed that limerence is how the world works and that everybody is having these very powerful emotions all the time.
So how did I slip into unwanted, volcanic limerence? Naivety, I guess. Not spending enough time talking about feelings with friends and family. Lack of education around romantic relationships. 🤔
“So you are saying that if someone clearly represents your animus, by your analytic👁️, you could avoid falling in limerence with him?”
At my current age, yes. In the past, no. I think, when I was younger, males who represented parts of my animus triggered feelings of ecstasy when I encountered them. Usually very attractive fellows, but with a mischievous streak. Tricksters. Pranksters. Jokers. Clowns.
“Without knowledge about neurochemical aspect of limerence, I always thought “ecstasy” is connected to spirit, not sex because the latter in my COO was linked to animal or “evil” craving.”
I connected “ecstasy” to “pleasure” and I connected “sexuality” to “pleasure”, so “pleasure” for me was always going to be the common denominator, not evil craving. “Ecstasy” IS sexual pleasure – but it’s sexual pleasure that takes place primarily in the mind.
“We need shamelessly embrace our own “differences” while respect that of others.”
I think the very notion of “difference” has always produced deep feelings of shame in me. I don’t just feel ashamed when people tell me I’m different in a bad way. I also feel ashamed when people tell me I’m different in a good way. It seems that I’m afraid of being “distinguished” in any way because being “distinguished” might provoke the envy of others. For all the bravado and confidence that I might appear to have, I’m actually very unsure of myself. 🤔
“As a semi Stoic, I don’t make such an assumption with realistic LO, I take the worst for a fact and practice how to cope with such an assumed fact.”
Ah. I always thought of myself as a Stoic. But maybe I’m a good deal more emotional (and more emotionally-driven) than I thought… “Stoicism” is my social mask. The real me is a “hot mess”. 🤣
“Let’s use two terms for both sexes: Madonna and Marilyn Monroe vs. Jesus and Casanova.”
Hahaha! Very good. Very good. I particularly like the “Marilyn” reference. 😁
“Very true! But what about spiritual ecstasy? What about emotional affairs? How do we count mental and emotional transgressions? One’s body is present biologically functioning, but the mind — the true Eros, is elsewhere blasting ecstasy with the secret LO? Isn’t it considered betrayal? Isn’t everything occurs in mind always prior to any realistic actions?”
I believe that spiritual ecstasy is real. I think I experienced spiritual ecstasy with both my LOs, the second more than the first. But no physical affair took place. And both males would deny an emotional affair taking place. For them, the bond was just friendship, plain and simple. For me, the bond was something spiritual, something mystical, something from another plane . 🙂
One only questions the morality of infatuation when one feels betrayed by the actions of an LO, or struggles to cope with particularly bad mood swings. I don’t think people always act on what’s going on inside their heads – especially if they’re getting large hits of dopamine anyway from small interactions.
But maybe there is a point where one wants more, even insists on more, and becomes resentful if more isn’t forthcoming i.e. a committed relationship. Perhaps the most awkward situation of all occurs when the limerent looks to LO for more and the LO feigns ignorance of the limerent’s ever-deepening attraction/attachment.
“Thank YOU for your energetic, respectful, provocative conversations and debates with an immigrant! Our dialogues make me feel psychologically needed and appreciated — a deep satisfaction a cptsd person could have ever hoped for!”
It has been a pleasure. I’ve enjoyed hearing a what a woman thinks about a great number of things. Somehow, you’ve helped me connect with my emotions and stay connected to my emotions.
If you trace the trajectory of our conversations, you will no doubt see my tone over time has become less intellectual, less provocative, less cynical, less “witty”, and more sombre and reflective. Perhaps literary references, provocation, and repartee are all just defence mechanisms, designed to shield the self from too much probing? But what is a heart if the contents of said heart can never be shared? 🙂
Nisor says
Snow and Sammy,
On your October 1st comments, ah , you’re going deeper and deeper on this subject of limererence and it’s painful emotions …
“ Why would LO’s emotions towards us be so vitally important to our mental health?”
“I ask myself these questions, and am not sure whether it’s wise to ask.” …
“ One only questions the morality of infatuation when one feels betrayed by the actions of an LO.”
“But what is a heart if the contents of said heart can never be shared.”
I’m trembling as I write here! My heart is wildly racing fast because of all that is exposed of the human brain, mind and feelings, emotions! There’s more… You are only touching the tender/good and healthy side of it…. For if we go to the most mysterious darkest
places, oh boy, you don’t want to go there!
I have once caught myself thinking of how I would like to get into LO’s mind, or becoming LO myself!!! What’s that? How extreme is that???
I shudder at the thought!
Sometime ago I read “ Oscar Wilde’s “The Ballad of Reading Goal”, ( don’t recall much) but I came across this strong wordings that stayed engraved in my mind: “For each man kills the thing he loves.”
Got to read it to understand the strength of these “unwanted volcanic “ feelings. I say no more…
Hugs to you both, troublemakers…
Limerent Emeritus says
Nisor,
“I have once caught myself thinking of how I would like to get into LO’s mind, or becoming LO myself!!! What’s that? How extreme is that??? I shudder at the thought!”
Only once? Ok, I never wanted to be her but I wanted to get inside her head. At its worst, I turned that into a second career. LO #4 is a self-proclaimed INTJ. As an ENTJ with a pretty low “E” score on two professionally administered MBTI assessments, I love tangling with INTJs. I went at LO #4 with a jackhammer. I thought she could handle it but it wasn’t the way to deal with her. I actually told her that, apologized to her, and told her I would back off.
Bad analogy: If MBTI types were chess pieces, ENTJs are queens. INTJs are rooks. Rooks are queen killers. If anybody derails an ENTJ, it’s likely going to be an INTJ. IMO INTJs are the only MBTI type smart enough to assess an ENTJs vulnerabilities and figure out how to exploit them. And, they’ll smile the whole time they’re doing it.
Luckily for the rest of us, most INTJs don’t seem to be aware of how much power they have, and if they do, they either don’t know how to wield it, or even better, don’t want to wield it. I don’t know if it’s because they’re nice people or they just can’t be bothered with most of us.
I thought if I could capture LO #4’s mind, I’d get all of her. And, ooh boy, what a ride that might have been!
Song of the Post: “Go To The Mirror” – The Who (1969)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWuHipQ7mF4
“What is happening in his (her) head
Ooooh I wish I knew…I wish I knew”
Nisor says
Limerent Emeritus, thanks for the post.
Making a career, eh, of trying on how to get in LO’s mind? haha. Wild, isn’t it? The reason I thought of being LO myself is to be able to control and direct his thoughts toward me! We had a pretty thing going on for the two of us and I let it go…can’t capture it back! No wonder people wind up going to magicians, voodoo priests, etc. such ignorance!
If I understood correctly, your LO#4 could have entangled you romantically the way she wanted but chose not to do it? Or maybe she’s a good person, maybe didn’t know how to use the tools…
I’m not too familiar with MBTI. Find it too complicated for my poor old brain. As I grow older and older, I try to do away with things that take too much strain in my
brain. In others words, I try to simplify everything…not because I’m lazy, it’s just age…ha!
Very good song, thank you, will send to my son and niece.
Have a wonderful Sunday afternoon .
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
“I’ve been feeling “less heaviness in chest” lately. I think the feeling of “less heaviness” comes from (a) identifying and sharing one’s emotions about limerence, and (b) admitting that one had a dream that didn’t quote come true. “
The same here. To simply identify what’s wrong with my LE mind is enlightening and being so mentally naked without being judged is very liberating.
“Interesting. Nobody has ever asked me how I’d feel if the answer was yes or no. I don’t think the answers would have much to do with ego. Nor would the answer be vital to my mental health. I think I’d have a purely emotional response.”
“In my COO, being accepted or rejected, selected or unpicked for a possible romantic relationship/marriage proposal is considered “wining” or “losing”, especially for men, because in general macho culture treats a woman (even openly) as object, marketable trophy, although modern men know in theory that emotions should be considered. On the other side of equation, many young women compare men’s social and economic status for a “suitable” matrimonial tie. Eros is involved superficially, but from little to moderate; Pragma has to be strongly present.
In this culture, if one’s quite insecure; the answers of rejection or acceptance may affect one’s mental health.
“If the answer were NO, I’d feel extremely hurt, and probably cry nonstop for a couple of days.”
I’ve been taking the answer NO from LO, and Stoically living with this assumed fact since March and meditating to dull the LE pains — the sense of perceived betrayal and abandonment. If LO “gave” a little more than ghosting or ignoring, I’d feel better with the “bonus”. My expectation is maximumly negative — a Stoic trick.
“If the answer were YES, I’d probably feel intensely happy for a period of time. But eventually I’d have to come down off cloud nine. The burst of sunshine wouldn’t last indefinitely…”
If YES, I might begin to believe that “twin-flame” theory! Maybe a PA, since emotional reciprocation would be a bit more present than previously known.
“How have I slipped into this unwanted, volcanic limerence?”
I think, because I was experiencing limerence from a young age, I thought everybody experienced limerence. I assumed that everybody gets feelings of ecstasy and the triggers for that ecstasy must be pretty similar. (What makes me “high” makes other people “high” too). I assumed that limerence is how the world works and that everybody is having these very powerful emotions all the time.”
The same here, because cptsd was formed in our early childhood. I began to have memorable crush at 7. However, later seeing Pragma was dominantly involved in dating and marriage without the kind of LE I had, I thought I was some sort of “alien” — a lone-wolf, who felt extra lonely — didn’t dare to tell anyone about my intense emotions and other neuro-dysregulations. All emotions was deeply pressed down, and I sought my best company in books.
“So how did I slip into unwanted, volcanic limerence? Naivety, I guess. Not spending enough time talking about feelings with friends and family. Lack of education around romantic relationships. “
Talking about “impermanent” feelings in my COO was/still is considered a waste time for nonsenses — what one can do with expression of ever fleeing feelings? Romantic relationship was considered a luxurious, whinny game for Western bourgeoisie, puzzling, unrealistic or even unhealthy.
For me, Limeence was more like an escape from repressed emotions, depression, Narc Mom’s ignorance, mental and emotional abuse, or and some ill-tempered teachers’ contempt or criticism. I rebelled by fearlessly breaking rules behind authority figures’ back since little.
Based on some theory and Crappy Childhood Fairy, our cptsd had already changed our neurological circuitry since very young age. So we were easily dysregularted without any knowledge or clear understanding, thinking the rest people around us emotionally or neurologically functions the same as we did.
Have you checked this out on relationship between cptsd and limerence?
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLl504D3b_OPhL2U5T5rxS7O_d_q5JKyfH&si=L_75bgeKTYaiifW9
“Usually very attractive fellows, but with a mischievous streak. Tricksters. Pranksters. Jokers. Clowns.”
With me, it’s femininity, romantic aura, high sensitivity, love of classical literature, reflective tendency… with some perceived insecurity in gentle looking males that set off my glimmers. Usually, those men were subjectively handsome and attractive; but I had crushes for really common looking boys in high school.
“I connected “ecstasy” to “pleasure” and I connected “sexuality” to “pleasure”, so “pleasure” for me was always going to be the common denominator, not evil craving. “Ecstasy” IS sexual pleasure – but it’s sexual pleasure that takes place primarily in the mind.”
In my COO, anything provoking pleasure is demonized as “devilish”, so we all avoid admitting that we LIKED pleasure. Up to this day, I still have some trouble to feel guilty-free when talking about pleasure seeking, it’s supposed to ↔️ hedonism. But I did feel ecstasy with platonic LO #1 & #7, Therefore, I naturally associate “ecstasy” with spirit, which was exchanged through intense eye contact.
“I think the very notion of “difference” has always produced deep feelings of shame in me. “
I feel the same way, that’s a consequence of cptsd; even in the daycare, I felt I was different, the feeling of which was not proud, but guilty. Narc Mom always felt embarrassed by my small or big fearless, daring mischiefs.. .
“We I don’t just feel ashamed when people tell me I’m different in a bad way. I also feel ashamed when people tell me I’m different in a good way. “
I felt uncomfortable or blushed when people sincerely gave me some compliments, as if I was never supposed to deserve them, due to my “innate differecne”.
“It seems that I’m afraid of being “distinguished” in any way because being “distinguished” might provoke the envy of others.”
There is an idiom: “the shot hit the bird that pokes its head out.” With our cptsd, our fear of spotlight, good or bad, is more intense.
“For all the bravado and confidence that I might appear to have, I’m actually very unsure of myself. “
“I always thought of myself as a Stoic. But maybe I’m a good deal more emotional (and more emotionally-driven) than I thought… “Stoicism” is my social mask. The real me is a “hot mess”.
Such admissions are really cute! 🌹 I’m Snow outside, Phoenix inside…
“I believe that spiritual ecstasy is real…. For them, the bond was just friendship, plain and simple. For me, the bond was something spiritual, something mystical, something from another plane”.
So accurately captured! Can feeling spiritual ecstasy, as well as emotional betrayal, only be experienced by limerents??
“One only questions the morality of infatuation when one feels betrayed by the actions of an LO, or struggles to cope with particularly bad mood swings.”
It sounds like “the morality of infatuation” is only relevant to limerents, exiting in their altered mental state; LO would be even unaware of its existence? I did not have many bad mood swings for the first 4 years, except my worst panic attack cause by that abandonment melange, shockingly triggered by LO’s perceived total ignorance of me in public. After 4 years, jealousy, anger due to “betrayal”, grief, and despair kicked in until March when I finally pulled off a “closure”, which, of course, did not and could not succeed without knowing clearly what I had been experiencing — no concept of limerence.
“I don’t think people always act on what’s going on inside their heads – especially if they’re getting large hits of dopamine anyway from small interactions.”
That’s the realistic situation of our limerence — most acts were so alive in our head, like in vivid dreams… less than crumbs “made any dropping sound” on the floor of the reality!
“But maybe there is a point where one wants more, even insists on more, and becomes resentful if more isn’t forthcoming i.e. a committed relationship. “
I guess this is more in your case since both sides seemed to be available. Mine is a dead end from the day ONE! I could not want more, insist on anything, and I had no right to feel resentful, so I didn’t! When PA was indirectly offered by LO, I did not want to take it — without his equal emotional reciprocation but with his perceived narc traits. I was also afraid of taking it — an abandonment melange might follow because it would end soon or later with the SO of 27 years.
“Perhaps the most awkward situation of all occurs when the limerent looks to LO for more and the LO feigns ignorance of the limerent’s ever-deepening attraction/attachment.”
I was hoping to have more platonic rendezvous with LO to dialogue, to discuss or debate substantial issues like we did here in LwL, but he said he would only do it with his SO, the legitimacy of which did not make me feel awkward.
I did sense that LO “feigns ignorance of my attraction/attachment” (but secretly enjoyed it as a sensor), not always deepening, but also strengthening-n-weakening considering how much LC/NC I tried, since the fall of 2018. LO would only talk with or write to me eagerly whenever sensing I was walking away — not pretending as he thought, but sincerely; my cptsd dysregulation became unbearable at times, with his pulling-n-pushing stringing.
“It has been a pleasure. I’ve enjoyed hearing a what a woman thinks about a great number of things. Somehow, you’ve helped me connect with my emotions and stay connected to my emotions.”
I’m honored to hear that I was able to make a man to stay in touch with his emotions. But why cannot I make myself to stay connected to my own emotions? 🧐. I am definitely closer to my emotions nowadays, which is making me more laidback (I was also intense with my cptsd dysregulation).
“If you trace the trajectory of our conversations, you will no doubt see my tone over time has become less intellectual, less provocative, less cynical, less “witty”, and more sombre and reflective. “
If it is indeed the case, then I’m really joyful for you and pleased for my accidental “achievement”! 💃🏻💃🏻
“Perhaps literary references, provocation, and repartee are all just defence mechanisms, designed to shield the self from too much probing?”
You mean self-probing? Yes, a variety of intellectual activities in a restless mind often indicates some kind of hidden emotional pains, eg. fear, anxiety, anger/resentment, etc. When another intense mind is invited in to dialogue with said mind, one is compelled to probe within, even just to keep up meaningful, authentic conversations and debates with the other challenging mind. That’s why substantial dialogues are such nutritious mind food.
“But what is a heart if the contents of said heart can never be shared? “🌹❣️
I’m going to frame this deeply moving truth!
Does this mean we limerents should all disclose our LE to our LOs? 😁
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
Well, we’re certainly covering a lot of ground today… 😜
“Besides her female brain, I think you might have also provoked her motherly instinct that wants to take care of anyone, especially attractive sex of one’s interest, who is willing to listen and submit to her judgment.”
I think in women, or in people with strong feminine energy, the sensual and the maternal can become interwoven. I’ve certainly felt nurturing toward males I’ve also felt attracted to. However, I’m also super-mindful these days of what may or may not constitute appropriate behaviour regarding gender roles. For example, some males may be uncomfortable being nurtured by another male, no matter how well-intentioned the nurturing, although they may welcome the exact same behaviour from a girlfriend. My advice: go with the flow, and find another way to express affection.
I feel comfortable being “motherly” toward other gay men, and they seem to be comfortable (and at worst only slightly amused) by such nurturing.
With conventional males, bonding-wise, jokes are always a good way to go. Compliments should probably be restricted to those of an impersonal nature. (Though it IS okay to compliment a nice pair of shoes). Throw in a few similes and metaphors derived from the world of sport even if you know nothing about sport. It seems to me that the more a man likes another man, (platonically), the more Man A mocks Man B and tells Man B that he’s a rascal. If I mock myself, I feel like I’m covering all bases! 😆
“It’s a hard-learned truth for me, due to my nurtured or “coerced” masculinity. I felt embarrassed or “sissy” to think or behave “womanly”, despite I look quite feminine. I was confused and sometimes repelled by a lot of “erotic” looks directed towards me. Before coming to LwL recently, I barely knew let alone understood the science behind lust, attraction, and attachment.”
I think both sexes are drawn toward eyes, longing looks, that kind of thing. Eyes seem to be a unisex erotic trigger. No wonder they feature so prominently in discussions of limerence! However, males can’t always read eyes, or aren’t always aware what their own eyes might convey i.e. desire.
Females, on the other hand, seem to be almost TOO CONSCIOUS of eyes.
Females might be frightened if they get “the wrong kind of eyes” from an unfamiliar male (or a familiar male who’s giving off the wrong signals). Sometimes, a woman will scan all male eyes in the vicinity because she wants to know the men present are “safe men” and she’s in a safe environment. Women who don’t want to engage in conversation with men will often automatically look down. 🤔
I think the women of LwL are right in many respects: I think women like men who are confident and women like men who have a good sense of humour. But this sense of humour should be overwhelmingly kind rather than cruel. I think women definitely don’t want a man who’s a bully or a man who’s aggressive. On the other hand, women don’t want a man who’s a complete pushover. A little bit of a challenge – now that’s sexy! 😉
“Yes. Without male’s understanding of women’s psychology, and willingness to grow and renew, and without women’s compromise, forgiveness and willingness to self learning & improving, a long-term relationship could hardly last, such as my marriage; I was so young and naive.”
I don’t know much about marriage. But I do know arguing with one’s spouse seems to be an ineffective way of persuading one’s spouse to meet one’s needs. It seems everyone stop listening the second arguments begin, so arguments are a largely pointless form of marital communication. 🙄
“In general, it’s true. But women’s focus could also be drawn by men’s physiques with their inexpressible aura, although they may not clearly aware of it. My eyes were somehow keen on this since young.”
Yes, my eye is still drawn by the male physique – but more out of aesthetic appreciation these days than out of desire. Also, movement. I just love the way the male body moves. And males often hold their arms out in such a funny way when they walk, as if they’re having great difficulties with staying balanced while upright. I don’t know if such behaviour is natural or learnt, but it’s rather cute, and brings out a woman’s maternal feelings.
“In general, men are more visual, aloof and possessive, instead of relational. Only a few with their creative streaks or talents are highly sensitive, imaginary, and relational, shown in their artistic creation, like “fussy” Proust.”
Well, Proust was “a friend of Dorothy” i.e. attracted to the same sex. So I don’t know if we can rely on his insights on all matters. I suppose men are more possessive of their mates than women in general. (In my parents’ marriage, the situation was reversed – possessive woman, docile man).
I have a theory. There is significant overlap in men and women’s erotic triggers. Also, the erotic triggers of men and women change as men and women age (or marry each other and learn from one another). Men become more relational as they age whereas some women may become more autonomous, and more aware of the physical beauty of the male.
Snowpheonix says
“I think in women, or in people with strong feminine energy, the sensual and the maternal can become interwoven. “
I imagined in Eros, men prefer women’s sensual energy much more than maternal. And many women, especially in my COO, mix the sensual and the maternal while dating/marrying with men. Vice versa, men sometimes treat their SO or GFs as a sort of material figure, e.g. my SO. I had very conflicting feelings about it. In one way, I liked to take care of SO’s needs or have him followed my preferences or decisions; but on the other I found men’s residual “maternal bonding or dependency” not sensually or sexually attractive. I want them to be more creative, innovative taking independent steps in certain aspects of life; not always depending on SOs as if they were still living in their original home. Mother tie should be severed in both men and women when they go into their own life.
If somehow I subconsciously sought out an ideal parental figure, that’s for my unmet childhood needs (desiring a loving mother, protector, guidance, a patient ear, accepting hands and hugs), not for my romantic desire or womanly needs. If men subconsciously search for their mother in their SO/GF, some women may feel “burdened.” I believe maternal instinct or care is for children, not grownup men. I know and understand a large portion of grown men are unconsciously attracted to or marry women who resemble their mother.
It’s hard for me to imagine how nurture-bonding and pair-bonding are mixed, eg. a hug for nurturing to me turned to a hug for sexuality for LO/SO; or other way around. Those 7 types of Greek love can not be mingled all the time. I think one should be clearly aware of differences and apply appropriately in social, familial mingling settings.
“It seems to me that the more a man likes another man, (platonically), the more Man A mocks Man B and tells Man B that he’s a rascal. If I mock myself, I feel like I’m covering all bases! “
I wished such “bonding” so much in my friendship with both men and women; but neither could take it well. The former was often distracted by their male hormone that they could hardly hear what I said or just nodded their head indiscriminately. The latter often giggled or puzzled by why I was bothered by all “Whys” under the Sun. My curious and restless mind was like a big dog who needs to run outdoor three times a day or better to go hunting along men in woods.
“males can’t always read eyes, or aren’t always aware what their own eyes might convey i.e. desire.”
The same phenomenon goes with females! You think we females know or understand our own eyes or gazes? We can’t see our eyes when they’re communicating with or glimmering at others! We may (may not) know what’s in our mind at that moment of looking or gazing; but what others see in our eyes are totally subjective as they wish. It’s in this “soulful” gaze or narcissistic stare, the world’s tragedies or comedies have been born and spinned around throughout the history. It is in this area, metaphysics has its ground and application.
“Females, on the other hand, seem to be almost TOO CONSCIOUS of eyes. Females might be frightened if they get “the wrong kind of eyes” from an unfamiliar male (or a familiar male who’s giving off the wrong signals). “
Due to my trauma, I could spot lusty eyes since 6, whether it’s from dominant “predators” or adoring men. I always got frightened under teens and felt very uncomfortable after 20. That may explain why my glimmer was set off by LO at their most “natural” state, before they ever saw or spotted my existence. That 5 seconds of initiative look will NAIL a fact — he is a hunter or a gentleman or someone wobbling in between. No LO has proved me wrong. (I never glimmered at Narc LO #3 and #6, they picked me up first and I merely responded)
“Women who don’t want to engage in conversation with men will often automatically look down. “
“Look down” or look away or squeeze out a polite smile, and try to avoid any further accidental eye contact without those “eye aggressive” or curious men.
“But this sense of humour should be overwhelmingly kind rather than cruel. “
The best, most attractive humors in the world are kind, empathetic, and insightful of life’s truths, big and small, positive and negative; they are not bitter, cynical, sarcastic, or cruel (maybe sadness provoking)
“I think women definitely don’t want a man who’s a bully or a man who’s aggressive. On the other hand, women don’t want a man who’s a complete pushover. A little bit of a challenge – now that’s sexy! “
Totally agree! Women like men who know how to appreciate uniqueness in them, with subtle but substantial flattery.
”so arguments are a largely pointless form of marital communication. “
Instead more discussions before a debate is needed; it’s extremely hard to hold debates from slipping into arguments. It takes willingness, effort, and deep affection for both sides to learn an d compromise, while trying to keep the 7 forms of love alive or undamaged.
“I just love the way the male body moves. “
I like stronger muscle tones in lean men’s physique — not those hideous body builders; I also like their sharp bone features, like those in Rodin’s sculptures. When young, having a roundish face is okay; but not pass their 30s. Female’s curves on men is a turn off for me; I used to dislike those curves even in women, but nowadays I appreciate them better.
“Well, Proust was “a friend of Dorothy” i.e. attracted to the same sex. So I don’t know if we can rely on his insights on all matters. I suppose men are more possessive of their mates than women in general. “
Proust is brilliant in his own queer eyes! As I said before, I like and appreciate femininity in men, and he excels in his creative work, aside from the long winding sentences.
“(In my parents’ marriage, the situation was reversed – possessive woman, docile man).”
The same goes with my family — a narcissistic, passive-aggressively controlling, selfish, dependent, insecure, unethical women, and a kind, fair, generous, proud, confident, moral man — not docile)
“I have a theory. There is significant overlap in men and women’s erotic triggers. Also, the erotic triggers of men and women change as men and women age (or marry each other and learn from one another). Men become more relational as they age whereas some women may become more autonomous, and more aware of the physical beauty of the male.
Sounds right, can’t disagree with you on this department.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
Such wonderful, thought-provoking commentary! In formulating a response worthy of your insights, I barely know where to begin… But I’m going to try anyway, because I’m a smarty-pants. 😆
I’ll start by making a throwaway remark. How does one know one is no longer limerent for a given LO? How does one know one is coming out of limerence for a specific LO? You know that pain in the chest cavity limerents report feeling? That “hurt feeling in the heart”? Well, that “hurt feeling in the heart” goes away when you’re thinking of a person and no longer actively limerent for them. 😉
“I imagined in Eros, men prefer women’s sensual energy much more than maternal. And many women, especially in my COO, mix the sensual and the maternal while dating/marrying with men. Vice versa, men sometimes treat their SO or GFs as a sort of material figure, e.g. my SO. I had very conflicting feelings about it.”
This is a very delicate issue that’s rarely discussed in any society, because it evokes such powerful but largely-unconscious emotions in both sexes. Nobody is happy with the status quo and yet nobody wants to change the status quo, either. It comes down to the question: “What do men and women REALLY want from each other?” And that seems to be a question most people are afraid to answer, or even to ask.
Sometimes, men are accused, rightly or wrongly, as only seeing women in one of two ways – as “madonna” (maternal figure) or as “fallen woman” (I don’t want to use the vulgar term Freud used, but I mean a woman viewed purely in terms of sexuality), Women often don’t want to be shunted off into one of two boxes. On the other hand, women also seem to struggle when asked to juggle both roles, for example, when they are the loving wife/girlfriend of a man.
I feel a lot of women decide unconsciously to blend maternal and sensual energy in relationships with males, because it’s the “safe option”, because this blend of energies is the only thing capable of keeping the sexes unified long-term and holding marriages together. The woman’s willingness to nurture (her husband and her children simultaneously) IS the beating heart of the marriage. And when the woman gives up nurturing, the marriage is over.
But you’re right, too – women are conflicted about the roles they’re asked to play in heterosexual relationships. The maternal side of the equation, especially when it becomes too strong or overbearing, is antithetical to Eros. Instead of being lovers first and foremost, husband and wife transform into “Mum and Dad”. There’s nothing particularly sexy about “Mum and Dad”. (Ask any teenager!)
Camille Paglia notes that “nursing” seems to be one of the primary things that adult women offer adult men, and often this nursing on the part of the woman becomes the whole relationship. Women do often relate to husband as if the husband were an extra child, and maybe some husbands do deserve to be patronised in this manner. But, again, too much nursing dampens Eros, and people seem to fall into limerence precisely because they don’t have Eros in their lives.
“It’s hard for me to imagine how nurture-bonding and pair-bonding are mixed, eg. a hug for nurturing to me turned to a hug for sexuality for LO/SO; or other way around. Those 7 types of Greek love can not be mingled all the time. I think one should be clearly aware of differences and apply appropriately in social, familial mingling settings.”
I agree with you that it’s not always healthy to mingle different types of love, especially Eros with other combinations. However, such mingling of different love types takes place in society and families all the time, which might explain why people are so confused about identity and why society has so many problems.
Ecstasy does seem to belong to the realm of Eros, but very few people want to give up ecstasy because it’s so addictive, and they’ll take ecstasy from whatever source they can find it – even inappropriate sources. Also, erotic love might be transgressive by definition, making it hard to reconcile with social monogamy.
“I wished such “bonding” so much in my friendship with both men and women; but neither could take it well. The former was often distracted by their male hormone that they could hardly hear what I said or just nodded their head indiscriminately. The latter often giggled or puzzled by why I was bothered by all “Whys” under the Sun. My curious and restless mind was like a big dog who needs to run outdoor three times a day or better to go hunting along men in woods.”
In Western culture, men are often seen as having nothing of value to add to the societal-wide discussion on relationships. But I wonder – do men (or the masculine principle they in theory embody) INDEED have something valuable to contribute to the discussion?
I think the casual-but-deeply-loving, relentlessly self-mocking, highly-controlled/highly ritualised aggression between males in male camaraderie that you and I so admire is admirable for a reason. Maybe these platonic male-male relationships have some kind of “breathing room” in them that heterosexual relationships lack?
Now there’s nothing innately wrong with heterosexual relationships. That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is men and women, even in happy heterosexual relationships, don’t give each other enough “air”. And when there’s no “air” in a relationship, there’s also no “Eros”. Plenty of married men and married women still seem to want Eros. So can something be learnt, NOT from non-heterosexual relationships, but from male homosocial bonding? 😉
“The same phenomenon goes with females! You think we females know or understand our own eyes or gazes? We can’t see our eyes when they’re communicating with or glimmering at others!”
Hahaha! That is so funny. I guess if I, as a biological male, insist that biological females inherently KNOW MORE about relationships than I do, then I can conveniently blame females for all relationship failures. (And vice versa, of course. Females can claim that “men know more” and hence blame men for all relationship upsets).
“Proust is brilliant in his own queer eyes! As I said before, I like and appreciate femininity in men, and he excels in his creative work, aside from the long winding sentences.”
Yes, Proust was certainly brilliant. I haven’t actually read him. I think the length of his work put me off. However, as a gay man, I often question the validity of my own insights and judgements, just as I questioned the validity of Proust insights and judgements – because, as you say, Proust is looking at the world through “queer eyes”.
In having a dig at Proust, I was really having a dig at myself. (Are my “queer eyes” reliable witnesses? Can gay men be counted on to tell the truth about life? What could a gay man possibly know about life?) Society doesn’t always value the contributions of gay men, leading gay men to doubt themselves.
Also, sometimes, one feels one doesn’t have a right to comment on things if one doesn’t belong to a particular group that those “things” are associated with. The feeling of stigma never really goes away.
Thank you for being such a lovely conversation partner! Gracious but tough – I like your style! I feel that I am helping myself a great deal more than I am helping you. 😛
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
” If men subconsciously search for their mother in their SO/GF, some women may feel “burdened.” I believe maternal instinct or care is for children, not grownup men. ”
Totally agree, but I think for some men the SO or spouse becomes the life director or life coach, for lack of a better description. The guys I used to work with at my former place of employment used to complain of the “honey-do” list. The list of chores and tasks their SOs gave them to do. So one day I asked one of them, “What if you just went home and did whatever the hell you wanted to?” And his face got really strained. Finally, he said, “I wouldn’t know what to do with myself.” Ah, I thought, you want the “honey-do” list. You need it. It’s giving your life structure and purpose. In essence, that’s what their SOs were doing. The women were the CEOs of the family, so to speak. And, yes, I would agree that’s a big job that some women wouldn’t want. I personally wouldn’t. It’s hard enough to find your own purpose. Let alone provide it for someone else.
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy,
“I’ll start by making a throwaway remark. How does one know one is no longer limerent for a given LO? How does one know one is coming out of limerence for a specific LO? You know that pain in the chest cavity limerents report feeling? That “hurt feeling in the heart”? Well, that “hurt feeling in the heart” goes away when you’re thinking of a person and no longer actively limerent for them. “
That’s why I admit that I’m clearly in my limerence because that deep heartache still emerges in dead night, middle of waking up, and peaceful dawn….
“This is a very delicate issue that’s rarely discussed in any society, because it evokes such powerful but largely-unconscious emotions in both sexes. Nobody is happy with the status quo and yet nobody wants to change the status quo, either. It comes down to the question: “What do men and women REALLY want from each other?” And that seems to be a question most people are afraid to answer, or even to ask.“
People in general avoid evasive, subconscious issues that once awake may spring their core round and round and turn upside down of what they have dominated believed in their whole life. They don’t even want to calmly face them, it’s safe to keep them out of mental sight. But Jung firmly believes that individuation process is the key to our sanity and sustained contentment.
“Sometimes, men are accused, rightly or wrongly, as only seeing women in one of two ways – as “madonna” (maternal figure) or as “fallen woman” (I don’t want to use the vulgar term Freud used, but I mean a woman viewed purely in terms of sexuality)”
Let’s use two terms for both sexes: Madonna and Marilyn Monroe vs. Jesus and Casanova. In this naming, we exclude bodyworker as trade men/women. I used to like the name “courtesan” because they were much more educated and smarter than wives, but they were still professionals making monetary profits.
“Women often don’t want to be shunted off into one of two boxes. On the other hand, women also seem to struggle when asked to juggle both roles, for example, when they are the loving wife/girlfriend of a man.”
The mainstream cultures in both East and West, up to this day, seem unable to accept that men can be Jesus and Casanova, women Madonna and Marilyn Monroe simultaneously, even in a long-term, love relationship. If they can be bravely honest to each other about what they truly desire and make efforts to work on the concepts and skills, the stereotyped, traditional roles could be changed eventually and beautifully integrated.
Men desire their SO being Madonna in the living room, Marilyn Monroe in bedroom, while women theirs being Jesus in the living room, Casanova in bedroom. That’s a simplified version of what both sexes truly want. But of course, it’s almost impossible to expect a single person to play so many roles in modern society: best friend, confidant, conversationist, Madonna/Jesus, MM/Casanova, therapist, decision maker, bread winner, drinking buddy, chef/chauffeur, homemaker, traveling companion…. Those roles were played by many individuals separately in the history but are expected by ONE energy & skill limited man or woman through a monogamous relationship in our ear! No wonder so many marriages and relationships have failed and broken apart!
“I feel a lot of women decide unconsciously to blend maternal and sensual energy in relationships with males, because it’s the “safe option”, because this blend of energies is the only thing capable of keeping the sexes unified long-term and holding marriages together. The woman’s willingness to nurture (her husband and her children simultaneously) IS the beating heart of the marriage. And when the woman gives up nurturing, the marriage is over.”
You’re totally right in terms of how a traditional marriage functions in most societies. However, we women, often caught up and exhausted by professional and familial responsibilities and strives to succeed in both fields, need and desire nurturing male partner, too (maybe that’s another reason why femininity in men is so attractive to me)! Why only women should play this vital nurturing roles to both sexes and children? Can’t men learn to share those roles and reduce women’s physical and psychological “burdens”?
Then another challenge is that if one can consciously, comfortably switch the roles of their beloved in the living room and bedrooms, back and forth. Where is such a psychological discomfort coming from? — philosophy, religion, ideology, conventional ethics, physiology, neurology… you name it! In my eyes, an ideal parter is a harmonious mixt of Jesus & Casanova or Madonna & Marilyn Monroe.
“Camille Paglia notes that “nursing” seems to be one of the primary things that adult women offer adult men, and often this nursing on the part of the woman becomes the whole relationship. Women do often relate to husband as if the husband were an extra child, and maybe some husbands do deserve to be patronised in this manner. But, again, too much nursing dampens Eros, and people seem to fall into limerence precisely because they don’t have Eros in their lives.”
You summarize here so well! I second you on why so many people with even happy SD still fall into limerence. The Eros is either already died or barely breathe in the comfortable or stagnated relationship. Security does not help Eros, biology and neurology only worsen libido streghth as we age.
“I agree with you that it’s not always healthy to mingle different types of love, especially Eros with other combinations. However, such mingling of different love types takes place in society and families all the time, which might explain why people are so confused about identity and why society has so many problems.”
I have already discussed this above.
“Ecstasy does seem to belong to the realm of Eros, but very few people want to give up ecstasy because it’s so addictive, and they’ll take ecstasy from whatever source they can find it – even inappropriate sources. Also, erotic love might be transgressive by definition, making it hard to reconcile with social monogamy.”
Very true! But what about spiritual ecstasy? What about emotional affairs? How do we count mental and emotional transgressions? One’s body is present biologically functioning, but the mind — the true Eros, is elsewhere blasting ecstasy with the secret LO? Isn’t it considered betrayal? Isn’t everything occurs in mind always prior to any realistic actions?
“In Western culture, men are often seen as having nothing of value to add to the societal-wide discussion on relationships. But I wonder – do men (or the masculine principle they in theory embody) INDEED have something valuable to contribute to the discussion?”
How interesting, I did not know this “fact”. In the East, it’s opposite. Macho males want to dominate/lead females in all walks, and many docile females automatically “look up” male chuvonists for answers and support, willing to be led “blindly”. Those women who have independent mind and means as a bread winner could hardly find their “mating hand” in marriage, and labeled “Leftover women” even under 30s.
“I think the casual-but-deeply-loving, relentlessly self-mocking, highly-controlled/highly ritualised aggression between males in male camaraderie that you and I so admire is admirable for a reason. Maybe these platonic male-male relationships have some kind of “breathing room” in them that heterosexual relationships lack?”
I so hope that those platonic male-male bonding camaraderie could take place between heterosexual men and women, which would make their desired marital commitment or substantial friendship last longer. But genetic hormone and neurology of both sexes are always going to be challenging, ready to mess everything along the way.
“What I’m saying is men and women, even in happy heterosexual relationships, don’t give each other enough “air”. And when there’s no “air” in a relationship, there’s also no “Eros”. Plenty of married men and married women still seem to want Eros. So can something be learnt, NOT from non-heterosexual relationships, but from male homosocial bonding?”
Yes, enough air for Eros is essential in any relationships, more needed in heterosexual ties; however insecurity, jealousy, and other anxieties kick in along free “air”, worse in people with some psychological deprivation in childhood. I believe If awareness, wisdom, and trained mental tools are applied in mature adults, such healthier relationship is possible.
“Hahaha! That is so funny. I guess if I, as a biological male, insist that biological females inherently KNOW MORE about relationships than I do, then I can conveniently blame females for all relationship failures. (And vice versa, of course. Females can claim that “men know more” and hence blame men for all relationship upsets).”
No sex knows better than the other; we are 8 billion blind men trying to describe the elephant in the field.
“Yes, Proust was certainly brilliant. I haven’t actually read him. I think the length of his work put me off. However, as a gay man, I often question the validity of my own insights and judgements, just as I questioned the validity of Proust insights and judgements – because, as you say, Proust is looking at the world through “queer eyes”. “
I’m making joke about his “queer eyes”. He has deep insights about the society in general, both sexes and their shared or distinguished psychologies, that are still valid in today’s world. The length of his work is scary, so please allow me put a link here — 100 pages of Proust’s 3464 quotes dominantly in Enlgish, you can judge for yourself whether his views are queer or profound.
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/233619.Marcel_Proust?page=1
“In having a dig at Proust, I was really having a dig at myself. (Are my “queer eyes” reliable witnesses? Can gay men be counted on to tell the truth about life? What could a gay man possibly know about life?) “
Again, everyone is unique; every view is valid, every untrodden path needs to be explored. As long as it matters to you in a mentally healthy way, then it’s plenty enough!
“Society doesn’t always value the contributions of gay men, leading gay men to doubt themselves. “
I Do, due to my working experiences with them — there has been at least 1 brilliant one in each place I’ve studied at or working in. To generalize or stereotype, their eyes and mind are more sensitive, considerate, and thorough, I was so impressed! Our society is still deeply mired in traditional views and some heavily biased convictions. But the civilization depends on steady progress on all areas of the society as well as of individuals, it just takes time. Trust yourself!
“Also, sometimes, one feels one doesn’t have a right to comment on things if one doesn’t belong to a particular group that those “things” are associated with. The feeling of stigma never really goes away.”
Well, many authors, poets, artists, inventors, scientists have voiced themselves through their brilliant work. Don’t dwell on sex or gender differences, but focus on creations what could speak for all. Valuable eyes judge work itself, not creators’ personality traits. Steven Jobs are said to have terribly personality, traits, who cares!
“Thank you for being such a lovely conversation partner! Gracious but tough – I like your style! I feel that I am helping myself a great deal more than I am helping you. “
Thank YOU for your energetic, respectful, provocative conversations and debates with an immigrant! Our dialogues make me feel psychologically needed and appreciated — a deep satisfaction a cptsd person could have ever hoped for!
If any of my LO were so responsive even just in words, I would never have slipped into limerence…. Let’s keep our mind flowing at our pace and delight! 🙏
Limerent Emeritus says
@Snowphoenix,
“How does one know one is no longer limerent for a given LO?”
For me a large part of it was when the idea of my LO not having a place in my life became more than intellectual. I didn’t have to repeat it as a mantra. My LOs were “meh.”
Don’t get me wrong. I still think about them way too much. It vacillates between LO #2 and LO #4. But, it doesn’t take up too much time and, at the moment, seems to be focused on why I spent as much time as I did on them. I had multiple opportunities to dismiss them and I didn’t.
Trying to hang on to them seemed like a good idea at the time. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. I don’t want them back. But, I really like the LO #2 sent me an FB friend request, even if it was an accident. It was nice to know that she looked and could still spell my name.
If I was important to them, they’d have tried to integrate me into their lives and they didn’t. If they’d been important to me, I’d have tried to integrate them into my life and I didn’t.
I didn’t have a place for them any longer. I knew that I wasn’t limerent for them when I became convinced that I had better reasons to leave than I did to try to stay.
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia,
“In essence, that’s what their SOs were doing. The women were the CEOs of the family, so to speak. And, yes, I would agree that’s a big job that some women wouldn’t want. I personally wouldn’t. It’s hard enough to find your own purpose. Let alone provide it for someone else“
Precisely! Ideally, a fresh grownup man and woman need to:
1. cut their unconscious, independent tie with their mother/caregiver.
2. Explore and find their fulfilling purpose for life.
3. Ground themselves in such purpose.
4. Pair-bond with a beloved, with their genuine affection and love that give and receive equally.
Without enough psychological “bread” to feed oneself first, one is inept to feed anyone else, but tends to cling to a rescuing “Mama” subconsciously begging for “Nurturing bread” that should be self-generated through a hard work in maturity.
With the nature’s maternal instinct, some women cling to mothering their SO for co-dependence. Has anyone ever seen a lioness or tigress nurturing their mates, lions or tigers, besides their own cubs?
Can anyone imagine those hundreds of men reach their arms for Marilyn Monroe’s maternal, nurturing hug? 😁
On the other hand, after 8 hours of assembling line or IT coding, picking up kids from after school, playing with them at playground, food-shopping, cooking dinner, tiding house, listening to SO’s working day, how would Marilyn Monroe swing her butt with Eros flying in her eyes?
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“Precisely! Ideally, a fresh grownup man and woman need to:
1. cut their unconscious, independent tie with their mother/caregiver.
2. Explore and find their fulfilling purpose for life.
3. Ground themselves in such purpose.
4. Pair-bond with a beloved, with their genuine affection and love that give and receive equally.”
I agree. I don’t want to be someone’s life director. I’ve always said a guy should have a hobby or two, a friend or two … something going on of his own.
“Can anyone imagine those hundreds of men reach their arms for Marilyn Monroe’s maternal, nurturing hug? 😁”
I see Marilyn much differently. First off, of course, she was one of the greatest sirens ever to grace this planet. I saw an interview with Jane Fonda, who went to a party decades ago with Marilyn. Jane said the men were so turned on by Marilyn, they were shaking.
But … there was her extreme vulnerability. She also elicited in them the desire to rescue her. To save her, to help her.
Those are two very powerful instincts to draw out … the sexual instinct mixed with the rescue instinct. If it was just the sexual instinct, we would have forgotten about her.
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia
“But … there was her extreme vulnerability. She also elicited in them the desire to rescue her. To save her, to help her.
Those are two very powerful instincts to draw out … the sexual instinct mixed with the rescue instinct. If it was just the sexual instinct, we would have forgotten about her.”
I am very sympathetic for Marilyn due to her sad childhood and her extreme vulnerability — she rarely appeared with maternal instinct, which helped keep her extremely attractive femininity. My point is that men did not feel like cling to her as an “Mama” when facing her, but rescuing her as a maiden in need and sexually embracing her as a siren.
So going to the original point of the debate: women need to compartmentalize their maternal instinct and their female sexuality when deal with their SO; the former are reserved for children; the latter for SO as lover, not a surrogate “son”.
Meanwhile, some “Mama’s boy” LO/SO need to really mature, standing up tall on their own, supporting and loving their beloved SO as an equal partner (particularly psychologically) instead of their substituted “mother”. Even if Freudian’s Oedipus theory is very true, but men can grow out of it, I believe.
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“My point is that men did not feel like cling to her as an “Mama” when facing her, but rescuing her as a maiden in need and sexually embracing her as a siren.”
What’s interesting is that sirens lured men to the death. In “The Odyssey.” Which is probably why the men at the party were shaking. There’s a fine line between being afraid and being turned on.
I agree with you about Marilyn. Horrible childhood. Horrible abuse by the men in power in Hollywood. And yet … she kept striving. Kept trying to better herself. She was very courageous. They thought she was a bimbo … but at the height of her success, she walked out on her studio contract (at at time when the studio owned you) and went to New York to study acting. Took balls. 🙂
“So going to the original point of the debate: women need to compartmentalize their maternal instinct and their female sexuality when deal with their SO; the former are reserved for children; the latter for SO as lover, not a surrogate “son”.”
Yes, I personally agree, but there are some women who seem to want to be the mother figure for their SOs.
“Meanwhile, some “Mama’s boy” LO/SO need to really mature, standing up tall on their own, supporting and loving their beloved SO as an equal partner (particularly psychologically) instead of their substituted “mother”. Even if Freudian’s Oedipus theory is very true, but men can grow out of it, I believe.”
But do they want to? To me, there’s a big difference between being supportive as a partner and directive/bossy/running the show as a parental figure. I have no interest in the latter. I’ve never even wanted to be a supervisor at any of my jobs. I want to do my own job, have as much autonomy as possible — do NOT micromanage me — and then I want to go home. I don’t want to tell other people what to do all day.
Snowpheonix says
@ LE
“If I was important to them, they’d have tried to integrate me into their lives and they didn’t. If they’d been important to me, I’d have tried to integrate them into my life and I didn’t.”
In my past LEs all xLO reciprocated either physically or emotionally. The cultural or societal barriers or personality of LOs (Narc) made me run away from them without ever turning my head back, except LO #5, who sincerely apologized to me in person and made an effort to remain a friend in my life.
Only in the current LE #7, there is SO and I’m unclear what’s going on in LO’s mind — we keep friendly chitchats and cordial care as good colleagues. Even if we both are limerent for each other, there is no way to integrate each other in our personal life, respectively. After speaking with him even for 4 minutes, I still get dopamine fix, despite all the dramas in the past 6 years…
“I didn’t have a place for them any longer. I knew that I wasn’t limerent for them when I became convinced that I had better reasons to leave than I did to try to stay.”
Due to my traumatic, very lonely single childhood, I have always wanted to make substantial friends and could always make a space for truly qualified ones — my order was quite tall. I preferred to stay alone than being with “wrong” companies. Moreover, I never needed to make any effort to stay in anyone’s life (except one); it was the other way around… If I were a mean narcissist without cptsd symptoms, I could have broken hundreds of male’s heart.
With my writing here, daily workout and effective meditation, I experience little LE pains nowadays, although still periodically feeling melancholy. When I wake up nowadays, it was not always LO’s blurry icon coming in my first consciousness in the past 6 years. I guess I’m slowly recovering.
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia,
“What’s interesting is that sirens lured men to the death. In “The Odyssey.” Which is probably why the men at the party were shaking. There’s a fine line between being afraid and being turned on.”
You’re right. I think it’s Hollywood’s fault to have made her a Bimbo siren-like. If she did not go to Hollywood, and had a chance to be a mother, she’d come across more as an extremely attractive woman with some Madonna quality.
“but at the height of her success, she walked out on her studio contract (at at time when the studio owned you) and went to New York to study acting. Took balls. 🙂
I didn’t know this part of story, solute to her! Education is the key to bring one out of the system’s control or societal’s negative influence. We know what Malcolm X did after staying in prison and educated himself there.
“Yes, I personally agree, but there are some women who seem to want to be the mother figure for their SOs.
I guess it’s a part of maternal instinct, which cross with Eros in my eyes, which is quite unattractive. (I have GFs like that) These types of women tend to be co-dependent.
“But do they want to? To me, there’s a big difference between being supportive as a partner and directive/bossy/running the show as a parental figure. I have no interest in the latter.”
It’s might be due to their psychological laziness, or the mothers of those boy-men have cultivated such a codependence during their interactions to gratify the Mother’s ego to control— out of mothers’ insecurity or vanity, even if they clearly know that birds need to fly out nest for good with their toughened wings! My ex-Mother-in-law was like that to her baby son—my SO/LO#4.
“I’ve never even wanted to be a supervisor at any of my jobs. I want to do my own job, have as much autonomy as possible — do NOT micromanage me — and then I want to go home. I don’t want to tell other people what to do all day.”
Exactly same here! At home, I want a Jesus in living room and Casanova in bedroom able to run mental and physical “marathon”…. How many are qualified out there? 😜
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
” I think it’s Hollywood’s fault to have made her a Bimbo siren-like.”
She was very much in control of her image. She knew exactly the power she had. She used every trick in the book. She just wanted to do more than play the dumb blonde or star in musicals.
“If she did not go to Hollywood, and had a chance to be a mother, she’d come across more as an extremely attractive woman with some Madonna quality.”
I don’t want to think of her as a mother, tbh. Just a siren. Sammy Davis Jr. said she hung in peoples’ subconscious like a bat.
“It’s might be due to their psychological laziness, or the mothers of those boy-men have cultivated such a codependence during their interactions to gratify the Mother’s ego to control— out of mothers’ insecurity or vanity, even if they clearly know that birds need to fly out nest for good with their toughened wings!”
I have a male friend whose mother made him so dependent on her, I consider it abuse. I could never say that to him, but she never wanted him to have his own life.
“At home, I want a Jesus in living room and Casanova in bedroom able to run mental and physical “marathon”…. How many are qualified out there? 😜”
I’ve heard it as a gentelman in the living room and a jerk in the bedroom. A little bit of jerkiness in the bedroom is good. Too much “consideration” gets old. 😉
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia,
“She was very much in control of her image. She knew exactly the power she had. She used every trick in the book. She just wanted to do more than play the dumb blonde or star in musicals.”
I was trying to say that if she had chosen another profession, instead of going to Hollywood, she would never have been made of a symbol, no longer a woman or person.
“I don’t want to think of her as a mother, tbh. Just a siren. Sammy Davis Jr. said she hung in peoples’ subconscious like a bat.”
We should not consider what we wanted, but what she wanted or needed in order to be happy or fulfilled. Greta Gabor recognized the danger of being possibly made a symbol of sexy and smartly retired at age of 36, just leading an ordinary life for her remaining years.
“I have a male friend whose mother made him so dependent on her, I consider it abuse. I could never say that to him, but she never wanted him to have his own life.”
There are a lot of mothers like that, sadly.
“I’ve heard it as a gentleman in the living room and a jerk in the bedroom. A little bit of jerkiness in the bedroom is good. Too much “consideration” gets old. 😉”
Gentlemen tend to be too “mannered” to get into profound discussion or debates with their SO or other women; their emotional line tend to be flat… A Jesus is supposed to be conversational, empathetic, consoling, tolerant, fatherly.…
A Jerk for the art of making love in MIND and BODY? I think Casanova 🎼 would be the better “artist” 🎹 than an untrained, unrefined jerk! I’m referring to mutual invigorating and energizing “fine art”….
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“I was trying to say that if she had chosen another profession, instead of going to Hollywood, she would never have been made of a symbol, no longer a woman or person.”
Arthur Miller wrote that he never saw her unhappy in a crowd. And that was of course a crowd of fans. Whether or not she saw being considered a sex symbol as dehumanizing, I don’t know.
“We should not consider what we wanted, but what she wanted or needed in order to be happy or fulfilled.”
She worked very hard to achieve her stardom and success. There’s no way of knowing if she would have been happy with an ordinary life.
“Greta Garbo recognized the danger of being possibly made a symbol of sexy and smartly retired at age of 36, just leading an ordinary life for her remaining years.”
She made her last movie in 1941. WW2 came in and a lot of the foreign box office, which was a big part of her success, was cut off. And stars were different by the time the war was over. Betty Grable became huge. Rita Hayworth. Bombshell types. No more aloof, mysterious types. Maybe she felt her time in the sun was over.
I don’t know that Garbo was particuarly happy living an ordinary life. She didn’t have all that much to do. Hard to say.
“A Jerk for the art of making love in MIND and BODY? I think Casanova 🎼 would be the better “artist” 🎹 than an untrained, unrefined jerk! I’m referring to mutual invigorating and energizing “fine art”….”
Casanova has probably been with too many women. 🙂 You want a little mileage; not someone who’s driven every highway. 🙂 But in all seriousness, yes, a jerk. A little aggressive. A little dominant. Not asking for permission. 🙂
Oh, I was thinking, too, the woman is often expected to be the social director. To create the couple’s social life and make plans with the friends. That’s a lot, too. Both the man and woman should have friends. Friends they see separately; friends they see together. I think in today’s vernacular, it’s called doing the emotional labor. The woman is often expected to carry that load.
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia,
You and are, along with other hundreds, are “blind men” trying to understand the two FACTS — Marilyn committed suicide and Greta Garbo lived through her old age, without knowing what’s actually in their mind.
“Arthur Miller wrote that he never saw her unhappy in a crowd. And that was of course a crowd of fans. Whether or not she saw being considered a sex symbol as dehumanizing, I don’t know.”
NOT Unhappy does not equal Happy. Normally, people do not and can’t hide their sincere joy, but the culture requires us to show or pretend positive emotions in public. Even if Marilyn was unhappy inside, she would never show that in front of her fans!
Is she, as you say, knew her worth in Hollywood and siren power in public, then she knew she’s viewed as a symbol — how many people in the crowds really knew her as a person, and she them? Was there real connections, or just a kind of “frenzy worship”? How much heart-heart, mind-mind connection did she feel with Kennedy brothers and Arther Miller? If she was satisfied with her worldwide popularity for whatever reasons, why did she kill herself?
On Greta Garbo, there were many speculations inside or outside Hollywood circle, which all made some senses; we don’t know the inside of her mind. But she chose to retire at 36 and led a quiet life (lesbian?) in New York and Switzerland. When she died, there was a photo of her in her 80s, buying fruits herself on a local grocery store — looking ordinary with a dignified aura.
Casanova has probably been with too many women. 🙂 You want a little mileage; not someone who’s driven every highway. 🙂 But in all seriousness, yes, a jerk. A little aggressive. A little dominant. Not asking for permission. 🙂
I’ve tried a couple of those “jerk”, who bored and disappointed me to end, due to their lack affection or brain or adequacy… Being alone is better than mingling with your kind of “jerk”…
“Oh, I was thinking, too, the woman is often expected to be the social director. To create the couple’s social life and make plans with the friends. That’s a lot, too. ”
That was one of my complains with my SO, who was from the local and supposed to help me adjust the new culture asap. But I ended up taking care of socializing for holidays and making and bringing international friends into our circle. My SO also had Asperger which I did not know at the time.
“Both the man and woman should have friends. Friends they see separately; friends they see together. I think in today’s vernacular, it’s called doing the emotional labor. The woman is often expected to carry that load.”
I agree with you, but women of this era is still expected to do more “emotional labor” and men just take a ride. Unfair.
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“You and are, along with other hundreds, are “blind men” trying to understand the two FACTS — Marilyn committed suicide and Greta Garbo lived through her old age, without knowing what’s actually in their mind.”
But how do you know what’s in their minds?
I don’t think Marilyn killed herself. If I were a betting person, I’d say it was an accidental overdorse. She was at the top of her game just before she died. She had some projects in the works (namely a remake of the dramatic movie “Sadie Thompson,” which she would have been sensational in). She’d lost a bunch of weight, she managed to knock Elizabeth Taylor’s “Cleopatra” shenanigans off the frong pages of newspapers with her “skinny dip/I lost my flesh-colored-bath suit” PR stunt, she’d bought her very first house … she had everything in front of her.
“Even if Marilyn was unhappy inside, she would never show that in front of her fans!”
I have a hard time thinking she was unhappy all the time. Her life had a lot of high moments. Though I have no doubt she had her share of pain.
“How much heart-heart, mind-mind connection did she feel with Kennedy brothers and Arther Miller? If she was satisfied with her worldwide popularity for whatever reasons, why did she kill herself?”
You’re making the assumption she was looking for a certain kind of deep relationship. Not everyone is.
But yes, I think the Arthur Miller marriage was real. Of course the Kennedy thing was just a casual affair.
“But she chose to retire at 36 and led a quiet life (lesbian?) in New York and Switzerland.”
She had boyfriends, too. She actually referred to herself with male pronouns and thought of herself as a man. Which is actually kind of cool. She was almost a century ahead of her time.
I’m not saying she didn’t choose to retire but there were also outside forces pushing her in that direction.
“When she died, there was a photo of her in her 80s, buying fruits herself on a local grocery store — looking ordinary with a dignified aura.”
I don’t know. I never wanted an ordinary life, but I’m stuck with one, so you may be talking to the wrong person.
“Being alone is better than mingling with your kind of “jerk”…”
My kind of jerk is the Rhett Butler type. A strong sense of self. And not afraid to call my on my crap when I need it.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“But how do you know what’s in their minds?”
Through their casual conversations and remarks with others, usually included in their biographies.
“I don’t think Marilyn killed herself. “
I’ve heard about this theory. Not sure whether the truth would ever be revealed authentically.
“I have a hard time thinking she was unhappy all the time. Her life had a lot of high moments. Though I have no doubt she had her share of pain.”
From what I have read limitedly, her childhood’s traumas would deeply affect her adult life, like cptsd. There is no other way to go around it unless through some kind of therapies. All that external fame or career pursuits can be just an attempt to escape deep psychological pains set in childhood and carried out subconsciously into adulthood. Robin Williams is another case.
“You’re making the assumption she was looking for a certain kind of deep relationship. Not everyone is.”
So you’re saying that she does not care about deep affection-bonding and pair-boning like the most of human population? With her terrible childhood and Hollywood control, she might need more than us.
“I’m not saying she didn’t choose to retire but there were also outside forces pushing her in that direction.”
Both can be true simultaneously.
“I don’t know. I never wanted an ordinary life, but I’m stuck with one, so you may be talking to the wrong person.”
I would be more content and joyful with my ordinary life if without so much trauma affects lingering inside me. Leading an ordinary life fulfilled by substantial purposes is quite challenging to people of all walks.
I firmly do NOT believe external (in)tangibles — wealth, power, fame, popularity, ALONE could bring substantial content and happiness into anyone’s life. Sustained contentment/satisfaction are generated within, w/o aforementioned (in)tangibles. The process to obtain them — a purposeful living, is itself gratifying. The end result, if success, is a bonus; if failure, one still gets gratification of trying — think of those thousands of nameless inventors, artists, writers, scientists, researchers….
Myself has zero envy of any celebrity’s life, the current or previous ones. The only people I highly admire are philosophers, inventors, writers, artists, architects, music composers… NOT themselves as a person, whom I have no way of knowing, but their creative and artistic works that have beautified the world and spun our body, mind, and soul to further our civilization throughout centuries.
“My kind of jerk is the Rhett Butler type. A strong sense of self. And not afraid to call my on my crap when I need it.”
Rhett Butler has a strong manly, charming appeal with his deep affection for Scarlett. But he’s not my type. 🤔
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“I’ve heard about this theory. Not sure whether the truth would ever be revealed authentically.”
No, there’s way of knowing.
“There is no other way to go around it unless through some kind of therapies.”
She had a lot of therapy. But, again, there had to have been moments of some genuine happiness. Personal happiness, professional happiness.
“So you’re saying that she does not care about deep affection-bonding and pair-boning like the most of human population? ”
Some people can be quite happy with fairly shallow relationships. Or no relationships. I mentioned that male friend of mine. I don’t think he has interest in romance and sex. Or close relationships in general. I don’t know what he’s looking for, to be honest.
“I firmly do NOT believe external (in)tangibles — wealth, power, fame, popularity, ALONE could bring substantial content and happiness into anyone’s life. ”
I don’t think they can, either, but a reaching level of success, whatever that means in the field one has chosen, comes with a certain sense of personal acheivement.
“if failure, one still gets gratification of trying — think of those thousands of nameless inventors, artists, writers, scientists, researchers….”
I don’t know if I agree with that. The world is full of people demoralized by lack of success.
“Rhett Butler has a strong manly, charming appeal with his deep affection for Scarlett. But he’s not my type. 🤔”
There’s a great line in the movie where Scarlett says, “Another dance and my reputation will be lost forever.” Rhett replies, “With enough courage, you can do without a reputation.” HA! Where can I find someone who thinks and talks like that? 🙂
Limerent Emeritus says
Marcia,
“HA! Where can I find someone who thinks and talks like that? 🙂”
If you want to attract a Rhett Butler, you need to be a Scarlett O’Hara.
There’s a thread buried in one of the posts where we dissected GWTW.
Check this out https://www.personality-database.com/profile?pid=2&cid=3&sub_cat_id=1306 [I know, I know, you don’t click links]
My guess was Rhett was an ENTJ. I was close. He and I have the same Enneagram numbers. I would have guessed Scarlett was an ESFJ but she’s more sociopath than borderline, still a Cluster B but more cold and calculating than an average borderline.
In HS, there was a girl who could have been Scarlett O’Hara. She looked like Vivian Leigh. I always thought we’d have made a killer team but, like Rhett and Scarlett, she didn’t want to have anything to do with me.
Nope, I turned out to be Tom, the Yankee Captain. Aside from Dr. Meade, I think he’s the only male in GWTW who isn’t a wimp and Tom is pretty close.
A college friend once said of a girl we knew, “She ain’t that good looking to be that obnoxious.” Scarlett was, had an aura like you wouldn’t believe, and knew how to manipulate people.
Most men can’t recognize that in a woman, let alone take one on.
Limerent Emeritus says
“Aside from Dr. Meade, I think he’s the only male in GWTW who isn’t a wimp and Tom is pretty close.”
Aside from Dr. Meade, I think he’s [Tom] the only OTHER male in GWTW who isn’t a wimp and Tom is pretty close.
Marcia says
LE,
“My guess was Rhett was an ENTJ. I was close. He and I have the same Enneagram numbers. ”
Yeah … not seeing a lot of Rhett in your posts. 🙂 Sorry.
I’m not claiming to be Scarlett O’Hara. I do have her strength but I’m way too old (I think she’s 16 in the early scenes of the book) and don’t have the energy or want to spend the time to be that manipulative. Of course, when she marries the second husband, she does it to survive. Can’t knock her for that.
When I think of Rhett Butler, I think of a man who lives outside the male hiearchy (or above it or goes around it). A rebel. And of a rogue. A reformed one, anyway. Once he commits to Scarlett.
I don’t know any guys right now who have a sense of rebellion. Even the young ones I work with … don’t even have a sense of humor about having a sense of rebellion. They’re so mired in the company culture.
I need a younger, hipper, cooler, sexier Bernie Sanders … who’s out there striking with the UAW! 🙂
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia,
She had a lot of therapy. But, again, there had to have been moments of some genuine happiness. Personal happiness, professional happiness.
I know that she had therapies of both Western and Eastern kinds; but no one could solves her mental illness of high anxiety or other unclaimed issues. if she were genuinely happy, why would she have abused chemical substance and then overdosed? Anyway, I’m through discussion about Marilyn Monroe.
It’s hard for me to see that personal happiness could be completely separated professional happiness. They’re all intermingled, affecting each other. But it’s true, we all have some areas of life gives us; while others worries.
“Some people can be quite happy with fairly shallow relationships. Or no relationships. ”
Maybe it’s possible; hard to imagine, though. In my COO, some people are like that, but it’s because they know no better, ignorance is bliss. They think too much knowledge breeds unhappiness.
“I don’t think they can, either, but a reaching level of success, whatever that means in the field one has chosen, comes with a certain sense of personal achievement.”
Definitely true!
“I don’t know if I agree with that. The world is full of people demoralized by lack of success.”
So you don’t think there is element of LUCK in one’s life; so everyone could reach the top through meritocracy in this imperfect and unfair world? People need to consider others’ opinions?
Do people have to reach to known success in order to feel content or happy? Majority of Westerners seem to believer more is better eventually bringing one to Nirvana; Easterners believe to desire more breeds discontent and mystery — those who know enough are often happy.
I really like this video: https://youtu.be/Iipn6yM43sM?si=gz0DoT9CVCVejotY — Status Anxiety
There’s a great line in the movie where Scarlett says, “Another dance and my reputation will be lost forever.” Rhett replies, “With enough courage, you can do without a reputation.” HA! Where can I find someone who thinks and talks like that? 🙂
That’s absolute brilliant and wise; living in others’ eyes would make one lose Self, achiever nothing.
Still, I am not Scarlett, not even near… Rhett is still too macho for me. I can’t deal with Ashley, either — a Mama’s boy.
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“It’s hard for me to see that personal happiness could be completely separated professional happiness. They’re all intermingled, affecting each other. ”
Where did I write otherwise? 🙂
“In my COO, some people are like that, but it’s because they know no better, ignorance is bliss. They think too much knowledge breeds unhappiness.”
I don’t know what you mean.
“So you don’t think there is element of LUCK in one’s life; so everyone could reach the top through meritocracy in this imperfect and unfair world? ”
I think the people who “make it” never give up. They are single-minded and driven, to the point of being obsessed. If we’re talking about something as hard to achieve as success in the arts, for example.
“People need to consider others’ opinions?”
Not sure what you mean
“Do people have to reach to known success in order to feel content or happy? ”
Depends on what they view as success or what their goals are. Someone who wants to be a working actor will probably not be happy having to work a day job and doing community theater. In the art fields — acting, writing, directing, dancing, ect. — I think it’s much harder to feel successful as few people can even make a living and there is no direct career path and few opportunites with tons of competition. But that’s just one example of one type of success.
“Still, I am not Scarlett, not even near… Rhett is still too macho for me. ”
I want someone pretty macho if I ever get into a relationship again. No more being the man! 🙂
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia,
It’s hard for me to see that personal happiness could be completely separated professional happiness. They’re all intermingled, affecting each other. ”
Where did I write otherwise? 🙂
Here — “She had a lot of therapy. But, again, there had to have been moments of some genuine happiness. Personal happiness, professional happiness.”
I thought you were saying that personal and professional happiness could be separated. For many people, they influence each other, hardly to be singled out. For people with childhood adversities, their adulthood is inevitably psycho-physiologically and neurologically affected. Even if we are more aware of it today, it’s still so tough to rewire brain system, our views of the world has been altered since childhood. I’m observing and learning how people (of relatively free of childhood trauma) view and deal with issues I have to face.
“In my COO, some people are like that, but it’s because they know no better, ignorance is bliss. They think too much knowledge breeds unhappiness.”
“I don’t know what you mean.”
I meant simple-minded, or undereducated people (in my COO) seem to come across “happier” because their mind is focus on narrowed matters, eg making a living with limited means. It’s claimed (of course, wrong) that depression is wealthy people’s problem, because they’ve got too much time in their hand — “Poor people are too busy to be depressed.”
I think the people who “make it” never give up. They are single-minded and driven, to the point of being obsessed. If we’re talking about something as hard to achieve as success in the arts, for example.
Some are driven for success, some for passion, like many poor artists in the past, Van Gogh, Gauguin…
“Not sure what you mean”
Meaning people often over care about what others think of them (in COO or here), positively or negatively. A truly independent, rebel, or secure individual does not live in others’ eyes. Some don’t care even compliments.
“Depends on what they view as success or what their goals are. Someone who wants to be a working actor will probably not be happy having to work a day job and doing community theater.”
In the East and some Western philosophy schools, learning to be content with wherever one is in life, while still pursuing your heart’s delight, is one of mental practices. Not everyone can (or never) reach their goals, without sweat or luck; but instead of feeling discontent at the same time, one can learn and practice how to be happy — it’s an art of living. Dalai Lama’s book, “The Art of Happiness”, it’s very psychological and philosophical, full of witty humors. I can’t forget some of its content.
“I want someone pretty macho if I ever get into a relationship again. No more being the man! 🙂”
I have a lot of masculinity in me, so can’t deal with macho guys. In both living and bedroom, macho is not equal artful. I appreciate sophistications in human relationships.
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“I thought you were saying that personal and professional happiness could be separated. For many people, they influence each other, hardly to be singled out. ”
I didn’t mean they were separate but that there had to have been moments of joy in her life. Watch the interviews with actress Shelly Winters. They were roommates when they were struggling actresses. And they had fun together, like girlfriends.
“I’m observing and learning how people (of relatively free of childhood trauma) view and deal with issues I have to face.”
To be honest with you, I’d like to learn how they actually enjoy their families. I know that sounds terrible but I’m baffled by people who want to spend all their time with their families instead of cringing through the obligatory few holidays.
“I meant simple-minded, or undereducated people (in my COO) seem to come across “happier” because their mind is focus on narrowed matters, eg making a living with limited means. ”
There’s some truth to that fact that a person can be happier if their goals are easily achievable and they’re happy with the small stuff.
“Meaning people often over care about what others think of them (in COO or here), positively or negatively. A truly independent, rebel, or secure individual does not live in others’ eyes. Some don’t care even compliments.”
Some people might care less than other people about how other think about them, but I haven’t met someone who didn’t care at all.
“Not everyone can (or never) reach their goals, without sweat or luck; but instead of feeling discontent at the same time, one can learn and practice how to be happy ”
I don’t know about that. Unless one just acquiesces.
“I have a lot of masculinity in me”
I have a decent amount in me, too, but I am toning it down. I am not playing the role of pursuer again. (I’m talking about in the very beginning.) I think it’s how I got into some of these LEs. I did too much, too many “remind them I’m alive” appearances and pushing things along. To know if someone’s into you … do nothing. Or at the very least … do very little.
Snowpheonix says
@Marcia,
“Not everyone can (or never) reach their goals, without sweat or luck; but instead of feeling discontent at the same time, one can learn and practice how to be happy ”
I don’t know about that. Unless one just acquiesces.”
By mentally and physically FOCUS ON what one has to do — duties, non-hobbies, and get whatever achievements out of it, one could obtain a certain level of contentment or satisfaction (maybe happiness is a wrong word). I tried, it worked. Maybe that’s how some people have learned how to enjoy their family activities, even obligatory.
“I am not playing the role of pursuer again. (I’m talking about in the very beginning.) I think it’s how I got into some of these LEs. I did too much, too many “remind them I’m alive” appearances and pushing things along. To know if someone’s into you … do nothing. Or at the very least … do very little.”
The same here. 🤝
Adam says
“In other words, put very bluntly but at the same time very respectfully, what a woman finds erotic isn’t necessarily the same thing as a man finds erotic.”
“In other words, when it comes to Eros, men and women have different triggers. “
In a heterosexual (and I only single that out because I have no insight on other kinds of relationships) relationship men and women are at odds when it comes to intimate desires. Blame God or evolution, whatever you believe. But the reality is we both have the same desires of intimacy. It is just how those needs are met that differ.
Everyone wants to feel desired and attracted. Men in general are getting their emotional needs met through physical intimacy. Being the visual creatures we are, touch, sight and smell all play into arousal of intimate and emotional desire. This is why (yes I know I’ll get crucified for this) men are so happy when their ladies “put effort into themselves.” (Also not just for us, but because we want our ladies to feel good about themselves. And when you ladies do feel good about yourselves we are proud to show you off to others. I’m not sure if I just dug the hole even deeper with that. Yikes) And we are mostly conscious of that about that with ourselves. Example: just last night I asked Momma if she would take me to 7-11 to get a snack to go with my sandwich I was going to make because I couldn’t drive. The whole night after I got home from work I left my shirt untucked. When got ready to leave I tucked it back in. “Why did you tuck your shirt in? It’s been untucked all night.” “If I am going to go out with you I want to look good for you.”
Women however are much different in the category of Eros. (Most I guess I should say and not make a blanket statement.) Being that they are not necessarily as visual as us men are, the approach has to be different. Mood usually has to be set. (Again, there are of course women that don’t fall into this category.) Effort has to be put in to get those emotional needs met before intimacy is desired. As a rule. Not to say that Momma hasn’t ever just BAM! been in the mood out of nowhere.
And of course all that varies in individual men and women. For those of us in a long term relationship the key is to make an effort to learn your partner’s in and outs when it comes to their emotional needs and intimacy. Learn your partner’s love language. A book I cannot stress enough every couple should read. Mine is physical touch. Momma’s was closely tied with words of affirmation and quality time. Just last night I was watching a movie before I went to sleep and I was sitting next to Momma on the loveseat while she watched General Hospital on her laptop and put my arm around her and laid my head on her shoulder. And sporadically paused my movie and asked her about the characters in the episode she was watching. Hopefully meeting both her needs and mine.
And I mean physical touch in that I got to the point that Momma lovingly told me “you need to go to sleep.” 🙂 Because I know when she lets me touch her intimately she is letting herself be vulnerable and she knows I am letting my vulnerability out taking the chance to find out if she wants to be touched or not.
Sammy says
“This is why (yes I know I’ll get crucified for this) men are so happy when their ladies “put effort into themselves.””
@Adam.
It doesn’t look like anyone’s coming to crucify you, mate, so you can breathe easy. I think limerence, as a rule, makes us all very insecure about feelings and whether what we feel is acceptable or not. Insecurity is a big part of limerence. 😜
Adam says
I feel that thought gets a lot of negative feedback due to what it seems is superficial in that statement. And it seems to be a double standard in regards with men as oppose to women.
frederico says
Hey, no, Adam. It’s all interesting and thought-provoking stuff.
I always read your posts and I am not alone x
Serial Limerent says
Nah, I like men putting an effort into themselves, too. Nothing wrong with that!
Adam says
Frederico
My wife teases me with all my “man crushes”. Henry Cavill, Antonio Banderas, Idras Elba, Jason Statham, Pierce Bronson … are all well dressed men. Looking sharp. A sharp dressed man is just as appealing as classy demure dressed woman. Do I need to hand in my hetero card? Lol
Nisor says
Marcia, Smow
“I don’t think Marilyn Monroe killed herself.”
There’s a documentary in which it explicitly leads to the version that she was “done with “ to cover up political scandals.
The truth will never be known.
Snowpheonix says
@Nisor, Marcia
Could be true. But we know she abused substance, like many celebrities in entrainment have done.
It’s fairly accepted in mental health field that people with extreme childhood adversity have a lifetime psychological issues to deal with. I believe the speculation that their neurological circuitry was changed during the abuse time, so even with willpower, it’s very, very hard to control their neurologically altered brain. I speak for my own experiences…
OCD, depression, or mood swing are default mood for people with cptsd… but without some psychophysiological efforts to battle with it, nothing else and nobody else can better the condition.
Limerent Emeritus says
@Nisor,
This is in response to your earlier post: “If I understood correctly, your LO#4 could have entangled you romantically the way she wanted but chose not to do it? Or maybe she’s a good person, maybe didn’t know how to use the tools…”
The practical answer to that is probably not. Until I disclosed to LO #4, she didn’t have any idea that I’d become attracted to her. The logistics didn’t support it and neither of us was looking for trouble. LO #4 hit me in a very specific vulnerability and I went into a response pattern going back to when I was 5. LO #4 had resurrected my mother.
If you’re really bored, some of the highlights of the relationship with LO #4 can be found in the following links:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-as-an-act-of-rebellion/#comment-2354 – Read the entire thread.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/can-limerence-be-safely-harnessed/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-as-an-act-of-rebellion/#comment-2354
LO #4’s INTJ personality was a large part of what initially attracted her to me. Her resurrecting my mother and her resemblance to LO #2 sent me into an LE.
Adam says
In a lot of ways I married my mother. In many ways Momma is nothing like my mother. But the attractive traits I saw in her, both physically, emotionally and psychologically all cane from my mother. Her keen ability to care for our boys. Her strict authority that I never questioned. Like my mother I never questioned her. Not even when the door closed. I’m the epitome of marring my own mother. Freud would be proud.
Nisor says
Hi Limerent Emeritus,
I read the two blogs and comments where you talk about LO#2 and LO #4. You have been through a lot yourself, eh, though you come out as as real rebel, and prefer to handle things on time, you still had to go through the process of healing…( going back 50 years!) and you feel confident the limerence is over. I’m very glad for you.
It’s was an experience that had a grueling effect in you with LO#2, and you’re single then…things could’ve happened and you could have been together, it was not meant to be. She seemed to be a very complicated woman, unsure of herself, you didn’t need that. But you wanted to be a “rescuer” of lost causes.. you paid the price… Unforgettable LO#2….
Like my LO,( unforgettable)he was my SO for three years , we were single and silly, but I let him go for small things, peanuts, and regretting it terribly. I also, didn’t mourn the loss of the relationship and maybe that’s why I had the dream, (story at LwL/ dreams, though I never thought of LO all these years, it seemed he was in my unconscious waiting to come out at some point) the dream set me off on this wild ride of limerence at this late age… I have an SO now for 46 years and I was never Limerent for him. But he’s the right choice for me.
LO# 4 is a different story for you, I think if you’re not married you were willing to pursue her, and heavens knows what could have happened. Same lost cause rescuing again..That’s when one needs another chance to live “twice”… ah, those experiences can take you to some awkward places, can ruin one’s life, at least cause a lot of unwanted grief and sorrow, pain and confusion. The mind knows exactly what it wants after limererence shows up… does it?
Have a very beautiful day, it’s autumn 🍂 my favorite season. 💪🏽
Limerent Emeritus says
Hi, Nisor,
Lost causes…
You might appreciate these:
“Confusion” – Elo (1979)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YECbtycraPM
“Midnight Blue” – ELO (1979)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0-jpuhSb1o
These both came off ELO’s “Discovery” album.
Also, on that album: “Don’t Bring Me Down.” No specific LO for this one but it’s a great song! One club used to play this at the same time every night with enough bass to vibrate the bottles on the bar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3neqYHYV384
The weather here is gorgeous.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
I’ll respond to your October 2 post down here, instead of using the reply button, because there’s a lot of material to scroll through up above.
“In my COO, being accepted or rejected, selected or unpicked for a possible romantic relationship/marriage proposal is considered “wining” or “losing”, especially for men, because in general macho culture treats a woman (even openly) as object, marketable trophy, although modern men know in theory that emotions should be considered. On the other side of equation, many young women compare men’s social and economic status for a “suitable” matrimonial tie. Eros is involved superficially, but from little to moderate; Pragma has to be strongly present.
In this culture, if one’s quite insecure; the answers of rejection or acceptance may affect one’s mental health.”
Oddly enough, I can sympathise with the female side of the equation in your COO i.e. marrying primarily or exclusively for practical reasons, but not the male side, showing how awkwardly I fit into the gendered world, if at all.
I think the macho notions of “winning” and “losing” sound incredibly cruel (to both men AND women). I don’t think a man’s worth should be determined by his ability to “snag” himself an attractive mate. A man should be respected for his character alone. I feel pair-bonding should be about two people sharing a genuine emotional bond, and if no such bond exists between two people, then nobody has really won anything.
There was a bit of this manly rivalry/congratulation/self-congratulation going on in my high school. I didn’t really understand it at the time, and it made me feel uncomfortable. For example, I asked an attractive young woman to the formal (at the prompting of her female friends) and she said yes. I become the object of admiration to some males (usually younger males impressed by my perceived success) and the object of envy to other males (usually males the same age as me who hadn’t secured a formal partner yet, or who wanted the same girl). I had no idea why my “formal date status” should affect the way people treated me.
In other words, I didn’t want to be liked/disliked merely because of who I was with. If male classmates liked me, I wanted them to like me for myself, because I have a nice personality or a kind heart, not because I’d “snagged a hot chick”. If girls liked me, again, I wanted them to like me for me, and not because they thought I had high status. I didn’t see myself as being in competition with other males – at least not romantically, and not usually academically either. I don’t understand this business of liking people for reasons that have very little to do with the person. (Teenagers don’t have a lot of control over status anyway).
Being rejected by a girl wouldn’t negatively affect my mental health as a teenager, or even today, because I wouldn’t view her rejection of me as a reflection of my worth. I’d simply assume that she sat down, did the sums, and decided we didn’t have compatible personalities. Or I was too “boring” to spend an evening with…
Being rejected by a male never came up, as our school did not permit same-sex formal partners. Still, if it did happen hypothetically, I wouldn’t see it as a reflection of my mating value. I would assume the other male, just like the female, found reasons in his mind as to why we were incompatible.
“Talking about “impermanent” feelings in my COO was/still is considered a waste time for nonsenses — what one can do with expression of ever fleeing feelings? Romantic relationship was considered a luxurious, whinny game for Western bourgeoisie, puzzling, unrealistic or even unhealthy.”
In Western culture, romantic love is celebrated very extravagantly in popular culture. So it’s surprising to me that most people aren’t using it as a general guide to pair-bonding. I guess everybody else got some memo I didn’t get? 🤔
“For me, Limerence was more like an escape from repressed emotions, depression, Narc Mom’s ignorance, mental and emotional abuse, or and some ill-tempered teachers’ contempt or criticism. I rebelled by fearlessly breaking rules behind authority figures’ back since little.”
That’s interesting. It’s also interesting you use the term “evil craving” to describe limerent yearning. I have an older sister, and “evil craving” sounds like something she would say to describe her supposedly forbidden feelings of desire. (She is also prone to limerence). But I think it’s a tad melodramatic to use the word “evil”. I’ve never viewed craving as evil. I see craving as inconvenient sometimes, or utterly inexplicable, or a waste of time. But I don’t assign any moral value to craving by itself. Craving simply is. Craving is a fact of life.
“In my COO, anything provoking pleasure is demonized as “devilish”, so we all avoid admitting that we LIKED pleasure. Up to this day, I still have some trouble to feel guilty-free when talking about pleasure seeking, it’s supposed to ↔️ hedonism. But I did feel ecstasy with platonic LO #1 & #7, Therefore, I naturally associate “ecstasy” with spirit, which was exchanged through intense eye contact.”
It’s hard to feel guilty about pleasure if one, like me, has always struggled to define pleasure in the first place (due to difficulty naming feelings). And one might not even realise one is experiencing ecstasy until one stops feeling ecstasy, and starts feeling either depression or indifference. Pleasure that’s located all in the mind seems pretty hard for either the individual or society to pin down. 🤔
“There is an idiom: “the shot hit the bird that pokes its head out.””
Ah! Very poetic. In Australia, I suppose it’s “tall poppy syndrome”. I.e. don’t be the flower that stands above the other flowers, or you will be cut down to size. I’m shocked by how much people’s lives are shaped by envy, or fear of arousing envy.
“Such admissions are really cute! 🌹 I’m Snow outside, Phoenix inside…”
Thank you. Unfortunately, it’s true – I do have my cute moments. 😁
Stoicism is a mask I developed largely to protect myself from the envy and rage of my always-unhappy narcissistic mother. If one seemingly enjoys nothing, and has no visible feelings, one can be punished for far fewer things. And envied for far fewer things, too. I hide my true personality less these days, because I’ve discovered non-narcissistic people are rarely bothered by other people’s true personalities. 🙂
“So accurately captured! Can feeling spiritual ecstasy, as well as emotional betrayal, only be experienced by limerents??”
I imagine both religious mystics and nature-lovers experience spiritual ecstasy of a sort that’s not related to other human beings. Mayhe musicians too, as they compose or perform their works. A lot of people probably feel betrayed by people in life, but perhaps not as profoundly as the limerent feels betrayed. The limerent has “put all their eggs” into one basket, so to speak, and then watched those eggs break. Hence, the emptiness the limerent feels when an LE begins to wane…
“It sounds like “the morality of infatuation” is only relevant to limerents, exiting in their altered mental state; LO would be even unaware of its existence?”
I think the morality of infatuation is always relevant to people who worry about moral issues. But you’re right – an LO might not be aware of how morally conflicted the limerent feels about interacting/continuing to interact with LO. An LO is unlikely to assign moral value to the act of glimmering at limerent.
“You mean self-probing? ”
Self-probing, yes. Self-examination.
“Does this mean we limerents should all disclose our LE to our LOs? 😁”
Ah, no, no, no, no. Both you and Nisor seem to have taken this last remark of mine wrong, although perhaps only in jest. 😆
“But what is a heart if the contents of said heart can never be shared?” simply means to me that it’s refreshing to share one’s emotions with another person. I.e. for some people, a limerence episode might be the most emotionally impactful thing that has ever happened to them in life, and they haven’t found anyone to talk about it with. I am not at all suggesting disclosing to LO unless the following three conditions are met:
(1) Both limerent and LO are single and free to act.
(2) The limerent is close to 100% sure the LO reciprocates feelings, and would welcome the disclosure.
(3) The limerent isn’t 100% sure LO reciprocates, but knows LO is a very kind person who will let down limerent firmly but gently. Also, limerent should feel they have the emotional resilience to cope with rejection should rejection occur.
Nisor says
Sammy, Snow
I definitely agree with the three conditions you mentioned to be met in order to disclose to LO.
Again, let’s try to be “ourselves “ by being honest within ourselves and others, but also dignified, not putting on a façade, a mask which will repress and stifle us , the which will inhibit us to do what’s true to us, and ultimately , one would have to peel it off and show our “real” self.
Life indeed is short, ask me, I’m reaching the winter song… and the soul never changes, it doesn’t age. Review your lives now that you limerents have the time, and make the right choices for your well being; constantly checking with your inner being , the heart and soul of what is correct, weight it out before you take any major decisions. What makes you feel free in the mind and heart, what brings you peace of mind and not turmoil, that’s the right decision. Don’t mind society and others so much, it’s irrelevant, they don’t come to your rescue when you need it most. And that’s constantly changing… you’re on your own and only responsible to yourself.
I don’t know how wise it is keep on looking to the past childhood to try and solve and explain adults behaviors. Like the said Oedipus complex , I was not aware there were so many males looking to be mothered by their partners! ( have I known I would have asked my lo to introduce me to his mother!)* Never thought I would be a mother to my partner! Uhhh! Neither was I looking for a father in my partner. I was mainly attracted to their features, personality and sexuality, envisioned making love with them, not nurturing them. I’m not ashamed of saying that sex is pleasurable, it is! it’s the fuel of a men/women relationship besides the feelings (regardless of gender). But be ultra selective…
Rounding this up: mothers are supposed to teach, guide and show their children tenderness and love; the father is the one who teaches discipline and teach duties, respect. It’s nature’s biological code for parenting.
Males in the outside seem to be harsh, competitive, and insensitive, actually, in the inside they are very tender, softer, caring and generous, harmless, honest, loving, even ignorant about the feelings of a woman towards them. They need to be coached by the women they’re attracted to, in a nice way, not motherly way. On the other hand, women are wiser when it comes to feelings (not all) , can be manipulative at times, harsh and temperamental driving the man away. Overall, men and women seem to be on an eternal battle of the wills, men instinctively want to rule, be perceived as the authority in the household in front of their children and friends…(women, make believe they are) and like some kind of submission by the women … (at least in bed) .
(* I never met my LO’s parents, I never asked, not even their names, was not important to me at the time, but he brought me to meet his sister and his brothers. They were of another ethnicity than mine, and may not have approved of mine, which I perceive NOW was the main reason our relationship didn’t go to the next level after three years together. To be sure, it was not meant to be.) OR he was flaky and weak… I can picture LO in the roll of Ashley in my life, in Gone with the wind movie, and my SO a Ret Butler, but I’m no Scarlet O’Hara, nor Melanie, perhaps a cross of them both?
Sorry for the 📖
Have a wonderful fruitful week.
Limerent Emeritus says
Nisor,
I’ve always been attracted to women who I thought could teach me things I didn’t know and take me to places that I’d never been. There was one girl in HS but I was too insecure to let her get anywhere close to me.
Eventually, 2 women did, LO #1 and LO #2. Probably 80%-90%, good and bad, of what I learned about relationships, I learned from LO #2. LO #4 traveled in circles that I’d never been a part of. I think I could have learned a lot from her. However, the cost of pursuing that was too high.
As Neil Diamond put it:
“Young girl with fire
Something said she understood
I wanted to fly
She made me feel like I could”
“Shilo” – Neil Diamond (1967)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJRKBVSGtr8
With my wife, it was entirely different. I was 9 years older. She expected me to take the lead so I did. However, after LOs #1 & #2, I had a much better idea of how to lead and where to go. My wife’s attitude was that we didn’t really know where we were going but we should go there together. 35 years later, we still make a really good team.
Nisor says
Yes, Limerent Emeritus,
No one was born knowing it all in relationships, or anything else for that matter; it’s a journey, we learn as we go. Mistakes and heartaches …Each new individual/ partner/friend has something new to teach us. “Accumulated experience “. That’s why it’s called the “ School of life”, you don’t learn it at the University… It’s very precarious and depends on whom you mix with and where you let yourself go. Some experiences may have been bad but one always learn and improve as time goes by or meet the right person. Then you feel you’re prepared to continue your journey with one single person of your choosing and dream together as you fulfill your new goals in life. Sounds simple but it’s not. Trial and error, ( before marriage) seems to be the rule. But it’s easier if one is armed with the right tools from the beginning (which one should have learned home). I think we’re all in the same boat, more or less…
But, sometimes we have regrets and feel we would’ve liked another shot at life , to correct certain mistakes or do what we didn’t do before now that we have the “experience “, but now it’s too late, one is married or have an SO, and time is running short! Too bad we only live once…
Have a pleasant day.
Limerent Emeritus says
Nisor,
You make things too easy!
“Too bad we only live once…”
You need to watch more old James Bond movies!
“You Only Live Twice” – Nancy Sinatra (1967) from the movie of the same name
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujZHvOxmv0c
I was 11 and went to a double feature of this and “Dr. No” with my cousins.
Adam says
“Like the said Oedipus complex , I was not aware there were so many males looking to be mothered by their partners!”
“Rounding this up: mothers are supposed to teach, guide and show their children tenderness and love; the father is the one who teaches discipline and teach duties, respect. It’s nature’s biological code for parenting.”
Nisor, I’ll try to explain it as best I can, at least in my case. Can’t speak for other men.
Most men go out into the cold world and deal with a lot of things women don’t. At least in the generation that I was raised. Now days there are a lot more women out there in the secular world. My mother stayed at home and raised my sister and I. She never worked until I was a senior in high school. My father did all the financial providing. So mother was the authority, teacher, guidance counselor and executioner. The later of which I saw quite often due to being me lol.
And did the same with my wife. Momma has only ever had to worked once in a financial crisis, but I have always wanted her to be home with our boys and be to them, what my mother was to me. The woman that saved me from myself. And they have both turned into fine young gentleman that I couldn’t be more proud of thanks all to her.
I asked Momma to cook me some tuna casserole Sunday, when I asked her Saturday so I would have some for lunch today too. She woke up like 9pm Sunday from a really bad migraine and as I tried to sleep I could see her in the kitchen (I was trying to sleep on the recliner watching War of the Worlds) making it. She was doing something for me, I could have done myself. She still calls in my medications and makes my doctor’s appointments. It’s annoying tasks that she just does for me, to take care of me. She tells me when I have had enough to drink and to go to sleep. She lovingly reminds me because of my heart condition that I shouldn’t smoke so much. Though I have really cut back.
When it’s been just a really long $hitty day and all I want to do is lay my head on her lap which she sits on the couch with her laptop and know that I am safe with her. That my busting my rump 5 days a week is appreciated. When she puts her hand in my hair while I lay there. It is very therapeutic to let myself feel vulnerable with her and to know that she wouldn’t ever use it against me. That I am safe with her.
Morgan would mother me some too. I guess it is my kryptonite when it comes to women. She unintentionally hooked me like straight out flirting would never have accomplished.
Nisor says
Hi Adam, how’re you doing?
Everyone has printed patterns that one follows from childhood, its the first impression of relationships one gets; it’s understandable. And specially you who as a boy
didn’t have dad home more often due to work and mom had to play both rolls. It’s more or less my situation with my son. He shares with me his intimate feelings but with his dad anything it has to do with work and business. His dad, my So, was always missing because of work. And he shares now, (not before) because he’s going through rough period in his life where he had to take tough decisions. He’s about your age. Therefore we’re his counselors… for free. ha. Family surprises never end…
Sometimes men confuse caring and understanding with “mothering”, it’s just a matter of semantics. I’m glad you’re proud of your SO and that she’s a good comprehensive partner. She’s understanding you, caring for you, not mothering you. Got that right? I
don’t want to be harsh we you. Haha.
You have a great day and the family too. Hugs. 💪🏽
Nisor says
Limerent Emeritus,
Great feature with James Bond! I thought of the movie title when I
wrote the post. Talking of generosity, two lives…
My SO has a collection of all James Bond’s movies! They’re tapes, no longer usable. I loved Sean Connery ‘s style. He was so manly and sexy, and the smirk, the unforgettable deep gaze… No one else could ever play that roll
as he did, unrepeatable. Lovely, as the English would say.
The dreams go on. Stay strong and joyful. 💪🏽
Snowphoenix says
Me: eternally Roger Moore, a humorous, savor 007 with some humanistic insecurity,.
Snowpheonix says
@Mila,
I did not see your post coming in when I was answering yours from last night.
“There is nothing about victory, defeat, social embarrassment or similar in my post.”
I might get that sense from Sammy’s post, not specific yours. I just responded yours in detail.
“Limerence as I experienced it meant desiring a person, to have my feelings reciprocated by this person. If I couldn’t get the desired, I felt pain and was sad. As simple as that. I don’t speak of love, I speak of limerence.”
If one is out of LE, one can turn that LE into a genuine affection without Eros flying around like a monkey.
“Also, LOs can be mean, patronizing and belittling in their way of rejecting.”
That entirely possible, and needs to be tested out. The goal again is NOT to get a response of any kind while disclosing. It seems no one here accepts my sincere intention here, it’s to answer a question during the last leg of my LE.
“If the limerent is that stoic that he isn’t hurt by that, he is past his limerence.”
What’s how I feel now or use this chance to see how I would feel. My intuition now is that this LO is NOT that mean. You have not read my extremely “mean” letter to him, and four months later, he kept saying “there is no bitterness on his side.” I went LC with him in spring and NC in summer without any explanation, now we’re even friendlier, why ❓I so appreciate his forgiveness, regardless their true intension.
“Limerence per se as I understand it, has nothing stoicistic about it.”
Totally truly. I forgot all about my Stoic practice during the thick of my LE. Now, I’m at the end, Stoicism can be used to end the residual limerence and even possibly cultivate a kind love afterwards.
Leaving uncertainty with a vagueness of some kind of Eros hope, in MHO, is not kind to both sides. It’s not a genuine friendship if LE is still hidden deeply underneath the surface — as Dr L sees it.
Thank you so much for such a care of my wellbeing. I feel very lucky to have met you here. Every time I discuss or debate with you guys, my mind and heart got clearer and lighter…
Sammy says
@Nisor.
“Sammy, Snow
I definitely agree with the three conditions you mentioned to be met in order to disclose to LO.”
Thank you. It makes me happy to think I sometimes get things right. 😛
“Again, let’s try to be “ourselves “ by being honest within ourselves and others, but also dignified, not putting on a façade, a mask which will repress and stifle us , the which will inhibit us to do what’s true to us, and ultimately , one would have to peel it off and show our “real” self.”
I agree that less play-acting overall is a healthy way to go through life. If one never shows one’s real self, then how can other people ever get the chance to love one? And if one is to be loved, one wants to be loved for one’s real self. It’s absurd to be loved for a social mask that’s very far removed from one’s real self or “facade” unrelated to the real self. 😜
(I understand that everyone wears a social mask. However, in healthy people, there’s no really a big gap between social mask and real self).
Snowpheonix says
@ Nisor, Sammy
“Again, let’s try to be “ourselves “ by being honest within ourselves and others, but also dignified, not putting on a façade, a mask which will repress and stifle us , the which will inhibit us to do what’s true to us, and ultimately , one would have to peel it off and show our “real” self.”
I agree that less play-acting overall is a healthy way to go through life. If one never shows one’s real self, then how can other people ever get the chance to love one? And if one is to be loved, one wants to be loved for one’s real self. It’s absurd to be loved for a social mask that’s very far removed from one’s real
self or “facade” unrelated to the real self.
Looks like a disclosure of my limerence is on its way, with you two’s inside about how to be an authentic human being without a social mask…. W/O any destructive behaviors occurred, without expectations for the future, our individual limerence, respectively, should not feel like a Scarlett letter on our forehead, a part of our Self should not be deeply repressed within gnawing us like a cancer….it’s just neurochemical imbalance, like an addiction to other chemical substances, why do limerent sufferers need to worry so much about a disclosure as if we had murdered someone secretly?
(I understand that everyone wears a social mask. However, in healthy people, there’s no really a big gap between social mask and real self).
Another highly intelligent, shameless (not really mentally healthy) “suitor”, from my middle-school class (in prison for 5 out of 10 year sentence for evading tax or monetary cheating?), told me a while ago in details about how his agitated mind had schemed for a few minutes, in the heat of his rage, to murder his 2nd estranged wife with a kitchen cleaver…. He knew that I normally don’t judge friends and then abandon them. He’s still stuck in the loveless, “cursed” house with her, due to their lovely daughter.
I understand the psychology behind his various reckless behaviors and feel very sorry for him, but I’m helpless in any realistic manner besides being a calm ear. From time to time, he sends messages to complain about his dire situation.
MJ says
“Looks like a disclosure of my limerence is on its way”
Good luck with that Snow. I know you’ll keep us posted..
Sammy says
“Looks like a disclosure of my limerence is on its way, with you two’s inside about how to be an authentic human being without a social mask…. W/O any destructive behaviors occurred, without expectations for the future, our individual limerence, respectively, should not feel like a Scarlett letter on our forehead, a part of our Self should not be deeply repressed within gnawing us like a cancer….it’s just neurochemical imbalance, like an addiction to other chemical substances, why do limerent sufferers need to worry so much about a disclosure as if we had murdered someone secretly?”
@Snowphoenix.
I wasn’t advocating disclosure to LO at all. In fact, I am opposed to disclosure completely, even when the feelings are reciprocated. Why am I opposed to disclosure? Well, as Nisor has said, disclosure is opening a Pandora’s box. And once you open that Pandora’s box, it’s impossible to shut that Pandora’s box again. Disclosure can sometimes prolong/magnify suffering and not diminish suffering. Plus, it’s a horrible imposition on a non-reciprocating LO.
I was talking about “social masks” and authenticity in the context of one’s life in general. I.e. if one is authentic in one’s everyday life and with everyone one meets, I think one is going to be much less likely to succumb to an LE, because one FEELS MORE CONNECTED. I think limerence happens because people feel disconnected from other people, and then spy some glimmering individual who seems to offer them that longed-for connection. (This promised connection is oftentimes little more than a beautiful illusion).
A person knows he/she is being inauthentic when there’s a big, big gap between social mask (persona) and real self. A person knows he/she is on the road toward greater authenticity when the gap between social mask and real self starts to close. But authenticity is an aim people should pursue INDEPENDENT of limerence/LOs. Authenticity is a worthwhile end in itself.
One’s LO might inspire one to be more authentic, but they don’t need to know about one’s journey toward greater authenticity because it doesn’t actually involve them. Get all the inspiration you need to improve your own life, in other words, without disclosing.
I can’t imagine any good can come out of telling someone: “Oh hi. I’m an addict. I struggle with addiction issues, and you just happen to be my drug.” I can’t see any upside to that scenario at all. 🙄
Chasing after sugary highs from LO isn’t authenticity. Limerence, if anything, will lead one AWAY from authenticity and toward more and more play-acting, more and more “phoniness” on the part of the limerent, because limerence is all about intrigue, the thrill of the chase, unanswered questions, etc. And this chase is taking place all in one’s own mind. One’s “infatuated self” isn’t one’s “real self” because infatuation is temporary, and a very unstable condition.
In high school, I was infatuated with a boy in my Maths class. I was in so much distress one day I stayed back and talked to my (male) Maths teacher. I didn’t reveal that infatuation was the source of my anguish. But I did admit, or rather, my Maths teacher pointed out dryly, that I was “a bit of an actor”. I was being my true self less and less often, due to limerence, and the people around me were starting to notice. Limerence was leading me AWAY from authenticity. 🤔
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“Looks like a disclosure of my limerence is on its way”
I haven’t read all the posts, so if I missed this in some of the posts … forgive me. But have you thought about if your LO would want you to disclose? It seems that you want to maintain a freindship with him. It can put someone in a weird position. I’ve had male friends say stuff to me months/years into the friendship. With maybe one exception, I don’t think it went well. The friendships fell apart. I guess I didn’t respond as I was expected to. I won’t say I was offerend by them saying something, but I did wonder why they were saying something as most had wives or girlfriends.
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy,
“I wasn’t advocating disclosure to LO at all. In fact, I am opposed to disclosure completely, even when the feelings are reciprocated. Why am I opposed to disclosure? Well, as Nisor has said, disclosure is opening a Pandora’s box. And once you open that Pandora’s box, it’s impossible to shut that Pandora’s box again. Disclosure can sometimes prolong/magnify suffering and not diminish suffering. Plus, it’s a horrible imposition on a non-reciprocating LO.”
I’m not sure if I agree with the analogy of disclosure to “opening a Pandora’s box”. I agree that “disclosure can sometimes prolong/magnify suffering”, but it can also end the limerence “limbo” — because both sides can’t pretend nothing is there, one side can’t continue wondering, and other side can’t keep stringing. LO here is not that narcissistically mean, just a Sensor who “likes to be liked. “ A disclosure will ultimately amplify his wish!
Also, why am I thought to be still in deep suffering? I said my profound confusions, resentments (of LO), and berating (of myself) have gone since I’ve come to LwL, the only “sigh” is that the Fate lady is not in favor of me, either realistically (SO) or psychologically (little-reciprocal LO).
Do I still sound like in suffering while conversing with you guys? Gosh, I was inspired to compose lyrics a few days ago — that was totally high, dopamine releasing activity! I admit that I am NOT very stable yet, mood fluctuating due to other realistic factors.
I agree with you that it’s a BIG imposition, and I certainly would not force someone to listen to my confession of an addiction. I thought I’d ask FIRST whether LO still wants to know about that “Mystification” which we both did not understand back in April. I felt I OWED both us an explanation, since I also “drove” him confused or even mad with my sudden NCs. He’s always forgiven me, and I his — lies, black and white (much smaller that LO #5’s)
“I was talking about “social masks” and authenticity in the context of one’s life in general. I.e. if one is authentic in one’s everyday life and with everyone one meets, I think one is going to be much less likely to succumb to an LE, because one FEELS MORE CONNECTED. I think limerence happens because people feel disconnected from other people, and then spy some glimmering individual who seems to offer them that longed-for connection. (This promised connection is oftentimes little more than a beautiful illusion).”
I agree with your insight here, except that word “spy”. I never spied any of my LOs… the glimmer came in 5 seconds like a “thunder” out of the least expectation. It was limerence that developed after the glimmer when I was in my low point — repression, depression, boredom, etc. I got two glimmers during my marriage when things were still going well, I just did not act on it; but the two crushes still lasted quite long; no limerence.
“A person knows he/she is being inauthentic when there’s a big, big gap between social mask (persona) and real self. A person knows he/she is on the road toward greater authenticity when the gap between social mask and real self starts to close. But authenticity is an aim people should pursue INDEPENDENT of limerence/LOs. Authenticity is a worthwhile end in itself.”
I totally agree that authenticity should be pursued independent of EVERYONE, limerence/LOs included. Everyone, including LOs, can all benefit from one’s authenticity. Authenticity primarily exists in our interaction with others, it’s relational. If living like an urban hermit, what is his or her “authenticity”?
Let’s say, one is likely to reveal one’s addiction to a therapist in order to heal; one may also wants to tell one’s entrusted friends (they feel needed at the same time) about it, so they know a truth and can still accept and support one (or each other) whenever needed.
Now, with limerence, the addiction (still dopamine based) somehow becomes 10 or 100 times bigger (pair-bond driven?), amounting to a volcanic taboo! If LO is just a bystander, a friend (in Mila’s case) and a high intelligent, nice, and supportive colleague, with whom one wishes to befriend after LE , then why a disclose seems to be either a Pandora’s box or a death sentence? Without this courageously humbling confession, how one is going to befriend with anyone? This is where my confusion lies. 🤔
Let’s make this assumption: Spirit, Snowphoenix is in limerence with the Spirit, Sammy, who is an insecure Sensor LO, but the reality is not in favor of the former — the latter can only love men not women. But she still wants to remain a close spirit-friend as long as possible, so she discloses to him that she’s in limerence with him, although it’s not going to change the Fate. She just wants to be authentic to herself first and then him, then express her gratitude to his existence, inspirational spirit and ghost-friendship. At the same time, whatever and however he will respond is totally considered and treated as his own business, out of her control, since she’s an authentic, semi-Stoic and semi-buddhist. Then tell me what the worst can happen in this scenario? What is the Pandora’ box here??
“One’s LO might inspire one to be more authentic, but they don’t need to know about one’s journey toward greater authenticity because it doesn’t actually involve them. Get all the inspiration you need to improve your own life, in other words, without disclosing.”
Beautifully said, and yes, LOs do NOT need to know their limerents’ journey, since they are just bystanders. But telling such a truth to an inspiring LO is truly kind (whether they deserve it or not). Showing limerent’s gratitude and making their besodded LOs feeling appreciated and needed, isn’t that a beautiful act? No one is needed or required to display or reveal their psychological or spiritual journey of any kind; but what about that one wants to share that journey with one’s good-enough LOs (or others, Ernaux’s book), because one like them enough? Why so “stingy?”
“I can’t imagine any good can come out of telling someone: “Oh hi. I’m an addict. I struggle with addiction issues, and you just happen to be my drug.” I can’t see any upside to that scenario at all. “
Yes, such a disclose as you word it could sound horrifying! It depends how one delivers it, sincerely, apologetically, sarcastically, bitterly, self-deprecatingly, or shamelessly? Disclosure is probably the most embarrassing truth that requires one’s backbone courage to humbly admit, yet neurochemical imbalance is not anyone’s active choice — did anyone choose to become addict? Why does “love” addiction sound so bad? Just because the “drug” is a walking human being instead of some plants? If Snowphoenix says your aforementioned sentence to her Spirit friend, Sammy, with a shameless, sweet smile, how would he feel and respond?
“Chasing after sugary highs from LO isn’t authenticity. Limerence, if anything, will lead one AWAY from authenticity and toward more and more play-acting, more and more “phoniness” on the part of the limerent, because limerence is all about intrigue, the thrill of the chase, unanswered questions, etc. And this chase is taking place all in one’s own mind. “
Mostly true. Except it was not always “chasing” due to culture barriers; a lot of control, restrains, and repressions are in action. It’s inauthentic because one can’t admit it to other people. In its own act, in limerent’s mind, it’s not phony; without that altered mental state (liemrent did not and could not actively choose it) and huge amount of infatuation, lierments can’t act out their sincere ways that might look phony to outsiders. I am not invalidating your high school experiences, but they can’t represent all other limerents’ varied environments with varied personal or cultural barriers.
“One’s “infatuated self” isn’t one’s “real self” because infatuation is temporary, and a very unstable condition.”
You should argue about this with some people here who have been in limerence for decades, yours 17 years. How many 17 years one has in life?
I see you’re lashing out on all negativity of limerence again, which may draw out my rebellious traits 😁 — just disclose to LO to “battle” against your persuasions and refute your all “black” insight about limerence. 😏
Forget the positive, creative parts of limerence? 💃🏻 Or you never admit there was any after being beaten down or burned so badly by your LE?
I have NOT made a final decision yet, and will consider about what you have said seriously! 🤝
Debating with you puts a big smile on my face! 😜
Snowphoenix says
@MJ,
On this past Monday, I invited LO for tea and cake for one of my ethnic holidays; unlike the past previous years, LO gladly accepted the invasion on Wednesday. We’re aiming to take it in my office on coming Tuesday. But I can not talk about any private matter — colleagues in neighbor offices can hear each other.
I’ll somehow ask or figure out FIRST whether he’s still interested in knowing about the “mystification” we shared and expressed in April. If not, there would be NO need to shuffle my LE into his throat, the case would be closed for good! If yes, I’ll tell the embarrassing tales in another occasion, with some printed material about limerence — can’t give him DrL’s book yet, or he’d come to our site.
I have three more days to contemplate this disclosure matter. I have been waking up every morning, the first moment of the consciousness crept in, with “yes” or “no” back and forth. So I’m trying to see which one is stronger in quantity and quality.
Thank you for your good wishes!
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia,
“But have you thought about if your LO would want you to disclose?”
It’s one of reasons that has made me to consider disclosure. If he’s truly a harmless Sensor, like I highly suspected, I’ll gratify him that wish. He’s already guessed my secrete attachment to the Phantom (cut him off from LO) with my over 1500 missives (not chitchat, but substantial monologues, reflections, verses, lyrics) in 6 years of span. I don’t want to hold this battle of ego any longer. So do you think in what negative ways he could gloat his “victory” or hurt my semi-Stoic face further? Whatever or however he response would help me determine whether a worthy, authentic friendship is possible.
“It seems that you want to maintain a friendship with him. It can put someone in a weird position.”
Definitely true. This is the only concern I’m having. But if I want to make an authentic friendship with him, I have to be authentic. If he can’t feel comfortable or accept me as a flawed person with LE addiction, then I know a final answer to this LE, which would allow me to go a real NC without feeling any regret or guilty. I am just tired of the current superficial “colleague-friendship” in which I feel suspended in the air, although not terribly suffering, with my meditation working effectively.
“I’ve had male friends say stuff to me months/years into the friendship. With maybe one exception, I don’t think it went well. The friendships fell apart. I guess I didn’t respond as I was expected to. I won’t say I was offended by them saying something, but I did wonder why they were saying something as most had wives or girlfriends.”
I have several “limerent friends” who confessed their feelings, which always won my admiration and respect — give some credits to their courage to express their “authentic affection” (nothing to do with their SO), and be appreciative! As long as they are “civil” (one tried to physically touch me repeatedly despite my clear avoidance and refusal, luckily he’s in a long distance) and sincere, they remain friends in my life. Some of them have SO, some still single. Some SOs often got uneasy when I was around; but I’d never gone a “date” with a committed man, even if they sent themselves, without an invite, to my door literally — that repulsed and angered me! When I put down my face, it’s not just “Snow”, it’s “icy hail”.
I went to a dinner “date” with 13 collages male classmates in a reunion event; all of their SO or GF were either busy or got sick that evening 🧐 So I had my “Last Supper” picture taken with 13 smiling men wearing a little silk scarf I gave each in that banquet (I thought their SOs would be there and had a small gift for them, too). COO is very different from here.
Thank you always for your wise questions!
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“I have several “limerent friends” who confessed their feelings, which always won my admiration and respect — give some credits to their courage to express their “authentic affection” (nothing to do with their SO), and be appreciative!”
Tbh, I wasn’t appreciate. At the time, I wondered why they had waited so long to say something. Was that their intention all along? Was it always romantic? I let it slide. But now I think it’s just a bad thing for a married or partnered friend to disclose his feelings or interest. Unless he’d told me he was in an open relationship and had some reason to believe I’d be ok with that — a conversation I never had with any of them.
And disclosure can be kind of heavy. Several months ago I felt differently, but I’ve changed my mind on it. I don’t mean when you’ve been dating for a bit and both know you’re into each other but when mutual interest hasn’t been established.
Disclosure is kind of like handing one’s feeling over to the other person. The other person may not want that kind of responsibility.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“I have NOT made a final decision yet, and will consider about what you have said seriously! 🤝
Debating with you puts a big smile on my face! 😜”
I enjoy discussing/exploring ideas with you, too. And if any of the things I say come off as “blunt” or “too negative”, that should never be taken as a feeling of malice or animus toward you as a person. I find your intelligence and “willingness to talk back” stimulating. 😉
“Also, why am I thought to be still in deep suffering?”
I don’t assume you’re in deep suffering. You’re right: it’s up to you to say how you’re feeling at any given moment, and limerence certainly does lend itself to the greatest variety of moods. (I should know).
😉
I am, of course, thinking about limerence from my own experience, and trying to see things from a global, long-term perspective. A summing-up of my own life story, if you like, as I seem to be reaching a point where summary is possible. In other words, I’m trying to synthesize everything I’ve learnt to draw some conclusions about my own infatuation, and what it meant to me. (Not what it meant to others). I’m trying to figure out my own personal “overall position”.
Basically, my story involves a complex emotional dance between two “couples”.
Couple 1 consists of Man A (a beautiful gay man) and Woman A (a beautiful straight woman. Woman A falls in love with Man A largely because she has reason to believe Man A loves her back. Man A does not reciprocate because he is gay. Man A is in love with Man B.
Couple 2 consists of Man B (a beautiful straight man) and Woman B (a second beautiful straight woman). Woman B is in love with Man B. Woman B makes her move on Man B, and he falls in love with her after realising she is in love with him. Man B is NOT in love with Man A, but finds the company of Man A quite pleasant. Man B is also very fond of Woman A. (Man B and Woman A are old platonic friends).
No information is available about how Woman A and Woman B feel about each other. Woman A and Woman B are not friends. Perhaps Woman A and Woman B don’t even realise they’re caught up in a web of intrigue involving an ambiguous “spark” between two men?
It seems to me that the victim in this story is Woman A. She has been shamelessly strung along, (in her own highly subjective opinion at the very least), and she doesn’t get her happy ending. How could she not envy the love between Man B and Woman B, who end up marrying, while resenting Man A for “not delivering the goods”? 🤔
I know we don’t live in Jane Austen’s day. However, in Jane Austen’s day, if a man of good repute led a woman of good repute to believe that he was interested in her, he was then obliged to marry her, even if he wasn’t interested in her. If the man of good repute didn’t marry the woman of good repute, he lost his good social reputation…
“Authenticity primarily exists in our interaction with others, it’s relational. If living like an urban hermit, what is his or her “authenticity”?”
You raise a very interesting point. Can human beings still be human beings in isolation? If a given human being has no one to reflect thoughts/feelings back at them, doesn’t that human being lose or forfeit a little bit of their humanity? It seems to me that human beings can’t really exist (or thrive) in complete isolation. 🤔
“Without this courageously humbling confession, how one is going to befriend with anyone? This is where my confusion lies. 🤔”
Might one limit one’s friendship circle to people who don’t glimmer?
Then friendship, in theory, should be a very straightforward matter… 🤣
“Spirit, Snowphoenix is in limerence with the Spirit, Sammy, who is an insecure Sensor LO, but the reality is not in favor of the former — the latter can only love men not women. But she still wants to remain a close spirit-friend as long as possible, so she discloses to him that she’s in limerence with him, although it’s not going to change the Fate. She just wants to be authentic to herself first and then him … What is the Pandora’ box here??”
First of all, I’m an Intuitive (INTJ) and not a Sensor! 🤣
Secondly, you raise some really interesting questions. Some straight women do fall in love with gay men. In theory, the “couple” should be able to talk through any misunderstandings, and remain friends. If one party is the wrong sexual orientation, then it’s less of a hit to one’s pride if they express disinterest in a relationship. Rejection is just that tiny bit easier to forgive, depending on the parties involved.
The Pandora’s box is perhaps social embarrassment. Maybe the gay man isn’t ready to come out? Maybe the woman has trouble understanding why her feelings aren’t being reciprocated, and assumes she needs to “try harder”? If one’s entire social circle have been involved in setting up and celebrating this romantic match, the feelings of embarrassment are greatly magnified. 🤔
“No one is needed or required to display or reveal their psychological or spiritual journey of any kind; but what about that one wants to share that journey with one’s good-enough LOs (or others, Ernaux’s book), because one like them enough? Why so “stingy?””
I’m all for generosity. However, I think one always needs to be super-mindful of the potential feelings of spouses, especially spouses of LOs. It shocks me how people in limerence, commenting on LwL, seem never to think about the feelings of LO’s spouse.
Why are the feelings of LO’s partner always glossed over, as if said partner did not exist? These spouses exist, and they probably have strong feelings of annoyance, confusion, jealousy, resentment, etc, etc. Why do we pretend the feelings of spouses don’t matter? Really, the feelings of spouses should be of primary importance. 🤔
“I am not invalidating your high school experiences, but they can’t represent all other limerents’ varied environments with varied personal or cultural barriers.”
I believe my high school experiences, while highly idiosyncratic, do contain an element of universal truth that can be applied to all cases of limerence. In a nutshell, ALL limerents change their own behaviour around LO in order to impress LO. This “trying so hard to impress LO” is what I mean by people donning masks/embracing inauthenticity, etc.
During limerence, one isn’t just being one’s usual boring self. One may even “don a mask of friendship” when around LO, but it’s false friendship because the limerent wants more than friendship. If the LO arguably “betrays” the limerent through flirty/seductive behaviour that ultimately proves insincere, the limerent ALSO “betrays” the LO by feigning friendship for someone that they, the limerent, don’t view as a friend. The “betrayal”, in other words, is mutual. Both LO and limerent are acting in bad faith toward each other. 😉
“I see you’re lashing out on all negativity of limerence again, which may draw out my rebellious traits 😁 — just disclose to LO to “battle” against your persuasions and refute your all “black” insight about limerence. 😏”
I don’t want to drive you deeper into limerence. I want you to make whatever decision lies truly in your own best interests, hopefully taking the feelings of other people into account. Why is it limerents thrives on opposition, I wonder? I agree limerence has good points and bad points. As someone who admires creativity, I especially appreciate any creative projects inspired by limerence.
However, I also think there’s such a thing as “too much creativity”. I.e. at some point, every artist has to finish/abandon a given creative work and move on to the next. Limerence makes abandoning a given creative work hard, because one can become addicted to constant revising as one believes one is gaining new insights into LO, etc. Both artists and limerents struggle to “wrap things up”, let things come to a natural conclusion, stop tinkering away, etc. 😉
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia,
Human emotions are very complex, and I try not to morally judge them base on their marital status, but with humanistic understandings. I treat their disclosure as a way they either compliment me or tell me that they used to feel attraction towards me; normally I just smiled without much words. It does not necessarily mean that they intended to actualize their privately felt emotions. If they hinted a PA, I just told them straightforward that I’m not interested.
Again, whatever they felt and thought of doing was beyond our control, there was no need to get upset about it. We can’t expect or demand others to behave as we wish.
“but when mutual interest hasn’t been established.
Disclosure is kind of like handing one’s feeling over to the other person. The other person may not want that kind of responsibility.”
Believe me, if I disclose, I’m still be a master of my own feelings, particularly it’s for the Phantom, not exactly LO. Using Sammy’s words, I’d say I have had an addiction to the Phantom, but his behavior has severed the tie between the two…. He knew this already, the poem “Return to his homeland” was sent to him in the spring.
I would not just disclose anything before I first ask whether he wants to know. See my response to @MJ.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“Human emotions are very complex, and I try not to morally judge them base on their marital status, but with humanistic understandings.”
In regard to your conversation with Marcia, just a very kind and gentle reminder: you might be underestimating how hugely important strict observance of social customs are to OTHER PEOPLE in your life, even if these social customs don’t mean much to you right now. This is a lesson I myself had to learn the hard way… And maybe this is the good that came out of limerence for me i.e. show greater consideration toward others? Life is a group effort, etc. 🤔
Basically, if other people in your life get the idea – rightly or wrongly – that you’re not playing by the exact same rules as them, no matter how unfair the rules, they will become very upset and try to exclude you, the free-spirited person, from further group activities. When one is out of limerence, one might regret the loss of all those friends. Most of them probably aren’t as small-minded as they appear. 😉
Snowpheonix says
Marcus Aurelius:
“Choose not to be harmed, you won’t feel harmed
Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.”
One’s emotions, thoughts are always generated within, up to oneself to manage with logical thinking. To practice Stoicism is cultivate logical and artful mentality to shield one from negatively REACTING to, and thus suffer from, all external uncontrollable forces — others thoughts, opinions, emotions, personalities, social or moral barriers, taboos, the nature’s and manmade destructive phenomenon.
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy
“It’s a weird trait of mine, but I actually enjoy reading literary criticism WAAAY more than I enjoy reading literature itself! “
I like reading book reviews in New York Times, but still enjoy chewing literature itself, word by word…
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/02/magazine/annie-ernaux-delphine-de-vigan.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Annie Ernaux Has Broken Every Taboo of What Women Are Allowed to Write.
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy,
“I think it’s a bit sad that globalisation means the East is being more influenced by the West than vice versa. “
That materialism is Mother of “sudduction” of all! As you say hedonism is some how coded in human’s larger front lope! Few walking souls truly understand when and what it is enough and lead their humble life with sustained contentment, not those highs of acquiring extra material stuff.
I” think Western culture could be greatly enriched by more influence from the East. It’s a shame that the exchange between cultures isn’t more even. “
I found in general there is an unspoken arrogance in the West that look down upon the East, merely due to their lower living standards, instead of curiously speculating and seriously studying some wisdom, spirituality, and their practices from the ancient East that lasts to this very day. A few scholars do study and research, but the main stream has almost no interests.
“I’m thinking there must be a “drive for virtue” because social bonds cannot thrive without trust. People have to be able to trust each other in order to cooperate, and build things i.e. a safe and happy community everyone can enjoy and everyone can benefit from.”
Many biologists, anthropologist, sociologists believe that drive for social bonding is in our evolved DNA, because an individual needed to be with a tribe to simply survive. Trust is a nurtured trait, except between mothers and their young children. So I think “drive for virtue” is developed later by the culture. Nowadays, there are more “urban helmets”, who can survive on their own with modern technology and material convenience.
“If everyone in the world decides to be naughty at the first possible opportunity to be naughty, and betray friends and family in the process, then trust would break down, and pleasant community life would break down. We’d all lose out big time. Trust is the foundation of any society (or local neighbourhood) worth living in.“
Monkey see, monkey do. Some of us will always learn and obey rules to feel cared, trusted, loved, and content; some break them down. “Rules are made to be broken” — Dalai Lama (?). When some conventional rules become out of date, or harmful, or prohibit positive progress; then we need “rascals” to break rules for reform and renewal. We have to look at two sides of the same coin, ALWAYS!
“Can you suggest a suitable opposite for hedonism? Is it asceticism? Is asceticism a way of life compatible with most Buddhist thinking?”
“Doctrine of the mean” or “moderation in all things”, not asceticism. Buddha tried asceticism himself and found he could not physically or mentally function well, in order to teach his philosophy and influence the world.
“I don’t think monogamy is impossible.”
I mean biologically. One can be attracted by many people at the same time, can emotionally love one deeply while enjoying sex with others. This is based on some bioscience research (Harvard University?)
“I think the belief that monogamy is impossible is some strain of Romanticism infecting modern thought.”
Yes, Romanticism has “infected” some bioscience knowledge. And the pop culture is almost religiously powerful here to influence generations after generations, who would rather believe in lyrics in romantic songs, than data in bioscience
Mila says
Snow,
I could only skim over all the posts about your pending disclosure, but I agree with what I read from Sammy and Marcia.
You seem to see it all too much from your perspective and state of mind and not take into account that LO (and his SO, and other friends, colleagues, whoever he will choose to talk about it) could be in another frame of mind.
It’s not as simple as “well, I ask him if he wants to know and he can say no”, of course one first is curious to hear what you have to say.
But the knowledge will take on a dynamic of its own, it will change things. If you are lucky, it will change them in a good way, but the possibilities that it will take an unpleasant turn are vast.
You mentioned me in some post, about “where is the danger to disclose to a friend”-
I’m glad I didn’t disclose to my friend, I think it would have altered our friendship. He might still know about my limerence (and his, as is my suspicion), without spoken words, but that’s different.
To go to someone and tell him is a demand for reaction, an expectation of the other person (even if you claim you have no expectations, it will feel like it for the other person).
I have a friend that disclosed to me and even if we are still good friends, I took care to “regulate” our friendship, what I said to him etc, so as not to encourage his limerence. Which made the friendship more unbalanced and weaker.
Take into account that your LO might not at all be in the “we are friends, we are close and honest with each other , I’m glad that you told me” fraction. He might resent that you tell him, he might be flattered but nothing else, he might think less of you for it, he might use it to prolong your limerence by uttering vaguely reciprocating things but nothing definite, he might boast about it to colleagues, he might try to avoid you from then on, he might patronize you on it, he might be scared and feel bad… many negative possibilities.
Of course there might be positive ones, but there’s the possibility that they might be short-lived, you might get warm words and you will feel relieved, but on long term it could still go wrong or bind the limerence to you even more tightly.
Still, it could end your limerence once and for all of he reacts in a stupid, hurtful way. Or the magic could happen that you have suddenly a happy honest friendship out of it, if not now but later. But these possibilities are few compared to the bad ones.
I still think you should do what you feel urged to do, but stand warned;)
Mila says
Also, if you do it only to practice your stoicism and to the Phantom as you call it, then it’s not fair on the real LO. He might not be a stoicist. He might not want the responsibility and knowledge and he might feel bad for it.
MJ says
“I have three more days to contemplate this disclosure matter. I have been waking up every morning, the first moment of the consciousness crept in, with “yes” or “no” back and forth. So I’m trying to see which one is stronger in quantity and quality.”
Thank you for your good wishes!
@Snow,
I’ve not been reading this string religiously, but some of it has caught my attention. I guess I want it to go well for you. Sammy raises a lot of good points though, and I know others have chimed in as well.
I know I wouldn’t disclose to my LO because I believe it would only complicate my intent, which is to never overdo the effort.
My body language has already given enough away to how I feel about her and I know that has never sat well on her end. That was my mistake, but I am grateful I didn’t just come right out with a full-on disclosure and throw that in her lap, on top of my puppy dog eyes. While yes it would be a beautiful thing (in a perfect world) to share that with her, I also believe it isn’t all that fair either. Because it just seems like too much to tell a person and then expect some sort of perfect scenario dreamlike reality, after the fact. LO would probably tell me to get f^@#&d!! And then I would be even more defeated and deeper into my pit of pathetic depression.
Your situation seems dramatically different though. Perhaps it’s ridiculous of me to even compare the two. Overall, it’s your choice, and even better if it goes well. For your sake, I hope it does.
Till then, don’t lose too much sleep on that contemplation..
Btw, You’re welcome..
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy, Marcia, Mila,
Your input is absolutely vital, I LOVE truthful warnings! — Prepare for the worst and try one’s best, is one of Stoic’s motto. All of what you have to say help pop up those little bubbles of limerence in my head, making me 👁️ and FELL more possible realities.
Growing up in COO with Buddhism (similar to Stoicism), I am still puzzled by some of the mainstream (or your) mentality, so I’m just asking here —
While being romantically rejected would make one feel so socially embarrassed, personally awkward, deeply wounded, or even patronized, laughed at, or belittled?
Affection or limerence is Eros based, not harm intended; the glimmer (first sight) mostly comes from pair-bonding instinct unable to be cultivated, having little to do with one’s capability or personality. So when when expressing or proposing one’s Eros, there are always two basic answers: Yes or No, 50-50 chance. Then while a Yes often gets celebrated or over rated; a No becomes a failure, almost amounting a disgrace, followed by a chain of negative emotions? Where does a dose of Stoicism go?
To be accepted or rejected in human relationships (friendship included) is not a battle, isn’t it? Then why so many emotions of personal “victory” or “defeat” are related to romance quest? Is this a part of Romanticism, a social influence (those songs about Love is a battle ground…)? A natural psychological phenomenon? Or what?
Or unrequited love becomes “nobel” only when one quietly holds Eros within but stays in distance or runs away, or does loving acts for the beloved without ever expecting any return, like Quasimodo? I think if he had verbally expressed his love, Esmeralda might have jumped off Norte Dame de Paris herself…
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“It does not necessarily mean that they intended to actualize their privately felt emotions.”
I’m sorry. I don’t agree. When people disclose, it’s usually in hopes that the other person will say they feel the same way.
I used to think that disclosing would release the other person, that he’d finally be able to reveal how he felt. As if he had been bottled up, and the disclosure would open the floodgates. (I had watched too many movies. :)) But I don’t think it works that way. If things are going well, one doesn’t need a big discussion. The whole thing kind of merges together naturally. I’m really of the mindset now that the more one has to do to get things going … that’s a bad sign. Whereas I think I used to see uncertainty as a challenge. A discovery to figure out.
And feelings aren’t always a call to action. Sometimes all we can do is feel them — hopefully enjoy feeling them (not the case with limerence, of course; more so with a crush). And then file them away, if possible. If not, work on processing them, but that’s on one’s own if one or both parties are not available.
Snowphoenix says
@MJ
Thank you for caring and telling me your own related experiences. I have to say that there is a bit of unfairness towards gender of disclosure. When men disclose unwanted Eros to women, it’s often thought by the women creepy or aggressive; but when women disclose to men, the men tend to feel “proud” (an unintended “conquest”) or at least amused, seemingly little aggression is associated with the “scorned” women.
I still sleep decently with at least 6 or more hours, probably contributed by my regular meditations 2-3 times a day and during the waking up time in the early dawn — put me back to sleep immediately; although it’s getting harder to focus. It takes a longer time to get the effect my body and mind need to reach — cleared up literally jammed head — scattering clouds, brought in calmness (sometimes giddiness) with Qi flow (warmth moving downwards) clearly detected within…
I’m hopeful….
Mila says
Snow,
I cannot follow your train of thoughts. There is nothing about victory, defeat, social embarrassment or similar in my post.
Limerence as I experienced it meant desiring a person, to have my feelings reciprocated by this person. If I couldn’t get the desired, I felt pain and was sad. As simple as that. I don’t speak of love, I speak of limerence.
If I disclose and it complicates the relationship or makes it awkward, if LO feels bad afterwards, if I feel the pain of rejection of my limerent feelings, it has nothing to do with „battle“ or whatever, or a „mainstream mentality“.
Also, LOs can be mean, patronizing and belittling in their way of rejecting.
If the limerent is that stoicistic that he isn’t hurt by that, he is past his limerence.
Limerence per se as I understand it, has nothing stoicistic about it.
Again, I‘m not speaking about love here.
Snowpheonix says
@Mila,
“You seem to see it all too much from your perspective and state of mind and not take into account that LO (and his SO, and other friends, colleagues, whoever he will choose to talk about it) could be in another frame of mind.”
That’s true that I’m more in my own perspective, and thank you for reminding me this aspect of disclosure — I hate gossips about me; due to cptsd, I hated all unwanted attention from anyone, including admirers. So far, I don’t think LO has talked about it to anyone else; he’s quite private. Also, I don’t think a Sensor will keep his SD informed about his flirteous behavior at work.
“It’s not as simple as “well, I ask him if he wants to know and he can say no”, of course one first is curious to hear what you have to say.”
That will be the likely case, since he’s not a “guilty free” Sensor.
“But the knowledge will take on a dynamic of its own, it will change things. If you are lucky, it will change them in a good way, but the possibilities that it will take an unpleasant turn are vast.”
That’s why I’m contemplating here with all your guys’ wisdoms.
“You mentioned me in some post, about “where is the danger to disclose to a friend”-“
If I were in your shoe, I’d disclose it, FOR SURE! If a “friendship” can’t stand a naked truth, then it’s not an authentic, strong friendship! In my COO, truth telling only strengthens friendship, as long as boundaries are kept — no EA or PA. I did not hold any comtempt towards my friend who disclosed his “crush” for me back in middle school or the fact that he almost murdered his estranged wife. Human psychology is vastly complex.
“I’m glad I didn’t disclose to my friend, I think it would have altered our friendship. He might still know about my limerence (and his, as is my suspicion), without spoken words, but that’s different.”
Well, you do not know any of this for sure; they’re still a suspicion — uncertainty. But some people are good living with uncertainty or unknowns, but it’s very hard for people with cptsd. Still, It can be worked out with daily writing practice.
“To go to someone and tell him is a demand for reaction, an expectation of the other person (even if you claim you have no expectations, it will feel like it for the other person).”
I disagree that it is always a “demand for reaction”; in my case, it’s an answer to the question raised by LO (felt the same in me) back in April. It took me the whole summer to explore that question, and I think it’s an act of kindness to put a missing piece of puzzle onto its right place to the original inquirer. To inform a piece of knowledge for the sake of knowing a truth.
“I have a friend that disclosed to me and even if we are still good friends, I took care to “regulate” our friendship, what I said to him etc, so as not to encourage his limerence. Which made the friendship more unbalanced and weaker.”
I did not have such an experiences with all my disclosed “admirers” (from COO), and they are all there with infrequent communication with me and ready to help me in whatever manner. Of course, it’s easier because they’re in a long distance.
“Take into account that your LO might not at all be in the “we are friends, we are close and honest with each other , I’m glad that you told me” fraction. He might resent that you tell him, he might be flattered but nothing else”
That is true in my current dynamic; I have considered him in my mind as a friend and have honestly confessed to him in reality (used to be like to a red cloaked bishop in my altered mental state, no more) ; but not vice versa. That’s what I don’t like about this “friendship”; I want it to be either nothing — just hate superficial friendship, or more substantial, which is not what he wanted as he clearly stated two years ago — for fearing EA. He will definitely be flattered, but NOT resent it, he’s a Sensor, and I’m a semi-Stoic “admirer”, which is somehow weighted more to him?
“he might think less of you for it, he might use it to prolong your limerence by uttering vaguely reciprocating things but nothing definite, he might boast about it to colleagues, he might try to avoid you from then on, he might patronize you on it, he might be scared and feel bad… many negative possibilities.”
All these are quite possible, seems to be negative on the surface. However, I will help me more CLEARLY or definitively see what type of personality he has (remember I said I know little about LO, not even his book, music, film tastes?), if it is worthy of my further time and energy, supposedly reserved and invested for a truly qualified friendship. Without an adversity test — we habitually do this in COO, how could one be ever sure what kind of people we are dealing with — “enemies” or friends or something mediocre in between? When I pulled off my first LC in 2019, he said, “it should NOT be a test between us….” If people are like what you just described, who wants to befriend with them, even superficially?
“Of course there might be positive ones, but there’s the possibility that they might be short-lived, you might get warm words and you will feel relieved, but on long term it could still go wrong or bind the limerence to you even more tightly.”
There can be no ultimate positive outcome in term of my limerence, SO is around, not enough EA on other side, and I am unable to have PA without EA. The only possible positive outcome is a sustainable, authentic friendship I’m hoping for, with a flawed human being, not an idealized Limerence Object. After LwL, I view him less and less as the Phantom.
“Also, if you do it only to practice your stoicism and to the Phantom as you call it, then it’s not fair on the real LO. He might not be a stoicist. He might not want the responsibility and knowledge and he might feel bad for it.”
This is a vital point to be considered. I have been mostly in limerence with the Phantom, not the realistic LO, until I came to LwL. He clearly knows the existed Phantom as an ideal surrogate parent (my closure poem also told him he’s 0% of phantom by March). Once he felt offended, saying “that’s NOT even me!” Back then, I stammered, unable to explain WHY I created or needed to fabricate his phantom in my head; and I told him that I was proud of my imagination — worked better with less knowledge about his realistic being.
The whole point of the disclosure is to explain to (“educate) him that Limerence is a mental disease, in which it’s not limerent’s choice to fantasize and idealize LO in head; during limerence, all our LOs is one form or another of a phantom in our head, isn’t it, including this moment?
LO is not a Stoic, as far as I could detect, but he’s getting better to take my LCs/NCs. Based on Tunnov or Dr L, it’s inaccurate to think that LO is responsible for our LE. Disclose will tell him that it’s NOT his responsibility for our suffering or whatever going on in our mind, LO IS just a BYSTANDER, who incidentally triggered us into our limerence that is strongly related to stresser in our life. LE provokes all of us to examine possible causes of such deep stresser.
“Still, it could end your limerence once and for all of he reacts in a stupid, hurtful way. “
Exactly! No way to foretell, even a semi-Stoic has to prepare for all possibilities.
“Or the magic could happen that you have suddenly a happy honest friendship out of it, if not now but later. But these possibilities are few compared to the bad ones.”
As our aforementioned discussion, what is defined as “bad” or “good” by one person might not the same by others. Every coin has two sides; as it is said universally: an adversity might be “a blessing in disguise”.
These are just my thoughts.
Mila says
Snow,
of course I don’t know the whole picture and especially your LO. I cannot judge his character or how the possibilities of friendship are in his and your case.
I was just concerned that you think so many thoughts about disclosure and all, and explain your limerence to him, and then he will react in some unexpected way and make you suffer.
I somehow feel that you might still be vulnerable under the stoic words..
I just don’t want you to feel bad afterwards, that‘s all…
But maybe you‘ve got to do what you set your mind on, and I agree, if you keep your eyes open and manage to see him neutrally, you might learn something about his personality which might help you coping with your limerence.
But the risks are still there, manifold, and it‘s actually not rejection, pain or something dramatic I fear for you, but I fear that it will only strengthen your state of uncertain limerence , only with a bitter and grey by-taste…
I wish you anyway the best, whatever you decide!
Snowpheonix says
@Mila,
I posted a post in a wrong place, sorry.
You’ll have to roll up.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
“When people disclose, it’s usually in hopes that the other person will say they feel the same way.”
Dear Marcia, I was rarely in “usual” category since my nursery. But I admitted again that in my case I wish a more substantial friendship after LE. Of course, who would NOT wish the other side (a good LO) reciprocate EMOTIONALLY?
“I used to think that disclosing would release the other person, that he’d finally be able to reveal how he felt. As if he had been bottled up, and the disclosure would open the floodgates. (I had watched too many movies. :)) But I don’t think it works that way.”
Girl: you watch “too many movies” written subjectively by limited screen writers. ☺️ I never done a disclosure myself; but several secrete admirers” did to me, we are still friends, of course, not close. I truly respected their courage to “lose face” and their wish to give me affections, not harms. As a semi-Buddhist, I try to be grateful not to take anything nice in life as granted, to give out more than take in, desire less and demand none.
“If things are going well, one doesn’t need a big discussion. The whole thing kind of merges together naturally. “
But there is a big barrier (SO & a pet LO?) in my case, so things can never be “going well” naturally.
“I’m really of the mindset now that the more one has to do to get things going … that’s a bad sign.”
I do not have to do it now, but just want to answer a question or even to “please” LO, since I feel we are in a better term nowadays. Last spring I was in a terrible shape, but almost “transformed” over the summer with LwL and my own invented cocktail meditation.
“Whereas I think I used to see uncertainty as a challenge. A discovery to figure out.”
I don’t have much uncertainty nowadays. LO has been keeping professional distance but friendlier when we interact, a couple of times his eyes were “lit up” by my giddy mood. Three days ago, my endocrinologist commented, “I can’t get over that smile on your face!” (Did a meditation in metro to his office) He then took a big chunk of time to inquire and listen to my meditation practices in detail and their affects. He’s a body-mind western doctor who acknowledges psychosomatic phenomenon and affects in both negative (depression, anxiety/panic attack) and positive (mindful meditation, physical workouts) ways.
“And feelings aren’t always a call to action. Sometimes all we can do is feel them — hopefully enjoy feeling them (not the case with limerence, of course; more so with a crush). “
Nowadays seeing LO in a more realistic light, I feel my limerence is changing into Philia, with a lingering crush. Like Sammy, I’m a defender of LOs at whom I have glimmered, regardless all their human flaws, regardless all the limerence pains I have suffered. It’s not THEM, but our own deep stresses in the first place and then altered mental state that made us suffer.
“And then file them away, if possible. If not, work on processing them, but that’s on one’s own if one or both parties are not available.”
I’ve been processing my fluctuating emotions on my own since April and improved them so much with writing here and my meditation, which no one here could understand its magic power unless one practices one kind.
Again, if I disclose, it will be for the sake of answering his question, if he still wants to know. I hope for a better friendship, but expect for the worst — this is a real chance to practice my Stoicism. If I survive, it will pave an easier road for my future romantic relationships.
Marcia says
Snow,
” but several secrete admirers” did to me, we are still friends, of course, not close.”
That is very different than my experience. I am not friends with any of the guys who disclosed except for one. I use the word “disclsoe” loosely. I think most just wanted some sideage. They were coming on to me. But a few disclosed actual feelings.
“I truly respected their courage to “lose face” and their wish to give me affections”
I mean, I guess, if they had been single. And a couple of my male friends were. But certainly not all. And also strange to bring it up after so many months into the friendship (in some cases, years). I felt a bit manipulated.It made me feel like they only became friends with me to get with me and didn’t have the courage to bring it up much earlier.
“But there is a big barrier (SO & a pet LO?) in my case, so things can never be “going well” naturally.”
Exactly. Those are barriers that make disclosure inappropriate. If I were your LO’s SO, I would be very upset if other women were disclsoing to my partner.
Unless they have some kind of more open arrangement. People have all kinds of arrangments. I know one male-female couple who were allowed to do outside things with members of the same sex but not the opposite sex.
“I do not have to do it now, but just want to answer a question or even to “please” LO. ”
I don’t know what question you are referring to.
” LO has been keeping professional distance but friendlier when we interact”
Distance is telling you someting, no?
“It’s not THEM, but our own deep stresses in the first place and then altered mental state that made us suffer.”
Yes and no. The limerence is about the limerent, but there are certainly LOs who make the limerence worse. Some just want the attention and to keep the limerent in their orbit.
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia,
The guys disclosed to me were all singles at the time. Married or committed only dared to hit on me without saying much. I normally left them alone, avoided them, or scolded them with my “icy hail” or contemptuous expression. One of them was my direct boss, so I quit the job.
“also strange to bring it up after so many months into the friendship (in some cases, years). I felt a bit manipulated.It made me feel like they only became friends with me to get with me and didn’t have the courage to bring it up much earlier.”
We human beings all change and evolve in time. Maybe their affection only developed over time, why could you not accept that fact? Why would you feel manipulated?
“Exactly. Those are barriers that make disclosure inappropriate. If I were your LO’s SO, I would be very upset if other women were disclosing to my partner.”
This disclosure does not aim to ask for any actions for EA or PA at all. As I told you, this discourse is to answer a question raised by LO.
“I don’t know what question you are referring to.”
I think I explained it in my message to Sammy.
” LO has been keeping professional distance but friendlier when we interact”
“Distance is telling you something, no?”
Yes, this distance makes it possible to disclose and ask for an authentic friendship. It was not ready earlier.
“Yes and no. The limerence is about the limerent, but there are certainly LOs who make the limerence worse. Some just want the attention and to keep the limerent in their orbit.”
Have you read DrL’s blog: https://livingwithlimerence.com/who-is-to-blame-for-limerence/
“Yes, LOs may sometimes be “getting something” from the limerent in a way that is selfish and transactional, but here’s the thing: so is the limerent. Without fail – by definition – the limerent is getting an astonishingly powerful emotional high from the company of the LO. And we limerents very often don’t ask nicely, or behave transparently, or admit that our friendship is not really just a friendship to us.“
…
“So, ultimately it comes down to this: we can hardly blame our self-centred or ambivalent LOs for sometimes using us for their own emotional needs, because that’s exactly what we are doing to them.“
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“We human beings all change and evolve in time. Maybe their affection only developed over time, why could you not accept that fact? Why would you feel manipulated?”
It’s possible their feelings developed over time, although one was making sexual comments at me pretty early on and I dismissed them because I liked him and enjoyed talking to him. He was single but had several girlfriends and as we discussed them and the men I was interested in, I assumed we were friends. Knowing that I knew all his secrets about dating/juggling many women, I have no idea why he thought I wanted to be next in line.
Another was married and did come on to me early in the friendship. I said no, we stayed friends and then he came onto me again. That was annoying.
Maybe I made some assumptions that they processed feelings as I did. My feelings generally don’t evolve from friendship to romance. If I see a guy as a friend, it’s because I don’t feel attracted or not attracted enough. That generally doesn’t change. I think it’s happened maybe once. And it didn’t go from “I see this guy as a friend” to limerence but to “I’m starting to see him a bit differently. Maybe there could be more there.”
“I think I explained it in my message to Sammy.”
I don’t read those message. I’m not a patient person, and they’re too long, like “War and Peace,” part 2. 🙂
“Yes, this distance makes it possible to disclose and ask for an authentic friendship. It was not ready earlier.”
I’m sorry but I don’t get that. If someone is distant, I see that as a boundary they are putting up.
“And we limerents very often don’t ask nicely, or behave transparently, or admit that our friendship is not really just a friendship to us.”
I never saw my LO as a friend. We were not friends. Our interaction was very flirtatious/sexual from the get-go. So I don’t think I had to ask nicely. He initiated the sexual tone. He sought me out, came to visit me, as I sought him out. For whatever it was (and it wasn’t much), it was mutual. But, yes, I was definitely getting something out of it. Of course. But so was he.
And when he pulled back, (after I had pulled back a bit myself), I let him alone. He still showed up to say hello every so often, but it was much less.
My mistake was hanging on way too long and accepting the crumbs.
Snowphoenix says
Marcia,
“Maybe I made some assumptions that they processed feelings as I did. My feelings generally don’t evolve from friendship to romance.”
That’s often my mistake, too. With me, either have the glimmer for the first 5 seconds, or never will — impossibly to cultivate it (I tried by failed repeatedly). As an unrecognized limerent type, I also hate “playboy” type guys who juggle their girlfriends and dates; my LO #4.5 is like that, which was hurtful to me.
But I accept that men and women, and different women, process emotions differently, mostly unlike my Stoic, limerent way, linked to my powerful, unbeatable instinctual drive.
@Sammy: hear that? ‘Shall we coordinate a book, “‘War and Peace of limerents”?
I like answer Sammy’s challenging questions, which stir my psyche, allowing my 👁️ to peek into my own complexity influenced by several cultures and unique experiences. Before, my reflective monologues to the self-made Phantom were like pebbles thrown to a sea, nowadays, they got responses from a LwL “Phantom”! 💃🏻
“Yes, this distance makes it possible to disclose and ask for an authentic friendship. It was not ready earlier.”
“I’m sorry but I don’t get that. If someone is distant, I see that as a boundary they are putting up.”
Before I felt/perceived this pulling-n-pushing tension as he attempted several times to hoover back my “fugitive affection”. Now that attempt seems to be gone (after my summer NC) while he’s professionally distanced and personally friendlier; therefore I think (and hope) a stable, authentic friendship might be possible — not entirely sure. No one can ever be assured of another human mind or heart.
“My mistake was hanging on way too long and accepting the crumbs.”
In my case, interactions related to Eros felt like crumbs and I did not mind for the 1st four years, because I needed Storge in this LE; it was related to Father’ sudden death. The attachment between a “child” and an idealized parental figure can be stronger than Eros during a grief time, since the former feels safer and more consoled of the irreversible loss.
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
” In my case, interactions related to Eros felt like crumbs and I did not mind for the 1st four years, because I needed Storge in this LE; it was related to Father’ sudden death. The attachment between a “child” and an idealized parental figure can be stronger than Eros during a grief time, since the former feels safer and more consoled of the irreversible loss.”
I don’t know what that means.
But if you want a more authentic friendship … be more authentic. Do a bit of a test. Share a little more with him about what is really going in on in your life. See how he responds. Is he supportive? Does he listen? Does he ask questions? See if he shares something personal with you. That’s the way to see if someone is willing to invest more and get closer. Does he bring up your topic a week later to check in and see how you are?
But disclosing romantic feelings … no. At this stage in my life (and I’m speaking for myself) … I don’t want a male friend to do that, particuarly one who is unavailable. That might make an authentic friendship more difficult. There are things you can share with a friend that you can’t with a romantic partner. Romance can muddy the waters.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
” In my case, interactions related to Eros felt like crumbs and I did not mind for the 1st four years, because I needed Storge in this LE; it was related to Father’ sudden death. The attachment between a “child” and an idealized parental figure can be stronger than Eros during a grief time, since the former feels safer and more consoled of the irreversible loss.”
“I don’t know what that means.”
Meaning the early LE is more Storge based, not Eros aroused. I did not feel sexy, but comfortable and cared while being around LO physically.
“But if you want a more authentic friendship … be more authentic. Do a bit of a test. Share a little more with him about what is really going in on in your life. See how he responds. “
I’ve been more than needed authentic! over-shared all sorts of stuff, including my health problems. Very little nowadays.
“Is he supportive? Does he listen? “
He listens to me very well all the time. Verbally supportive with his opinions and thoughts.
“Does he ask questions?”
Not often, but sometimes in reference to whatever we were chatting about.
“ See if he shares something personal with you. “
Superficial, logical stuff and activities he does with his SD, daughters, his mother and two siblings. If I ask, he’d tell me about his personal preferences. Not his thoughts, sentiments or reflections on deeper, more intangible matters, which I care more.
“That’s the way to see if someone is willing to invest more and get closer. Does he bring up your topic a week later to check in and see how you are?”
Nope. Not even for 1 or 2 months. Once, he pointed out that I invested too much in our interactions. He just passively receives whatever and whenever I tell or say.
“But disclosing romantic feelings … no. At this stage in my life (and I’m speaking for myself) … I don’t want a male friend to do that, particuarly one who is unavailable. “
My disclosure will not be asking or expecting him to disclose anything in return — he does NOT Eros for me, besides some superficial care; yet he wants to keep my limerent attention or affection.
“That might make an authentic friendship more difficult. There are things you can share with a friend that you can’t with a romantic partner. Romance can muddy the waters.”
Dr L points out that a friendship with one side harboring secrete limerence is INAUTHENTIC, because limerent expects more and cannot even honestly admit it! That’s why the current muddled “friendship” should not go on, it feeds LO’s shallow needs, but hurt me.
I’d rather to have none, and move on, but almost impossible at work, and I have to throw away whatever we had in the past 6 years. That’s why a disclose with NC in mind feels needed, this time with more knowledge and understanding of limerence.
The previous unexplained 3 NCs hurt me more than this genial LO; (he seemed to genuinely enjoyed my our chitchats, as he openly admitted again and again.) Then we “felt” emotionally closer after NCs. As Tunnov observes, adversity and barrier even strengthen limerence, so unbelievable.
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“Dr L points out that a friendship with one side harboring secrete limerence is INAUTHENTIC, because limerent expects more and cannot even honestly admit it! That’s why the current muddled “friendship” should not go on, it feeds LO’s shallow needs, but hurt me.”
Yes, but he also writes in posts such as “When Not to Disclose” not to disclose if one or both parties are unavailable. Which at the time I disagreed with, but I feel differently now.
It doesn’t sound like you and your LO are super close. What you currently have may be you all you have in terms of closeness.
I had an LO years ago whose friendship I cut off abruptly when I went NC. We hadn’t been friends that long but we had spent a decent amount of time together and I wish I had just come out and told him why I couldn’t hang out with him anymore. Because I had feelings for him and he had a girlfriend. I wish I’d been more direct with him before I went NC. But other than that, I can’t seen any reason to disclose to a person who isn’t avaialable. I think I confused him and probably hurt his feelings, but I was hurt myself. I was hurt he didn’t want more from me. I couldn’t have been an authentic friend to him.
” As Tunnov observes, adversity and barrier even strengthen limerence, so unbelievable.”
Makes complete sense to me. The more you can’t have something, the more you want it.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
I’ve read DrL’s , “When to Disclose” and “When Not to Disclose” repeatedly, which I agreed and disagreed with, but unlike you, I’m not out of LE completely yet so I can’t totally trust my current muddled “logic”.
“It doesn’t sound like you and your LO are super close. What you currently have may be you all you have in terms of closeness.”
I am afraid you’re right here. Your questions for an authentic friendship have made me ponder and realized that some of my thinking is delusional, out of my wishful fantasies. I wish the friendship could be authentic, deeper but LO seems to be satisfied with where it is now, which makes me feel “phony”, repressing and hiding my lingering limerence.
Like your case just mentioned, I confused and hurt him. He has forgiven my angry, hush letter and 3 NCs, but the confusion was never cleared up — what and why things happened the way they did. But I don’t feel his eagerness to know any answers nowadays, so there is NO URGENT need to disclose, until I attempt another complete NC again!
If I directly tell him my decision for 4th NC, he’d want to know an answer urgently again like in the past repeatedly. He seemed to have talked with me earnestly only when sensing I was pulling away — an authentic Sensor! He comes across as a very courteous, easy-going, social, charming, genial, patient listener to everyone around. It’s impossible to pull down an iron face to him, and for what legitimate reasons?
“I was hurt he didn’t want more from me. I couldn’t have been an authentic friend to him.”
As a woman, I am experiencing the same psychological pain, but as a semi-Stoic and semi-Buddhist, I am and will be able to hold an authentic friendship with him, if he wishes the same, too. however, to reach that point would require my honest disclosure first at some point! You see how it is a catch-22 situation?
” As Tunnov observes, adversity and barrier even strengthen limerence, so unbelievable.”
“Makes complete sense to me. The more you can’t have something, the more you want it.”
I meant why after NCs were implemented, limerence would be strengthened? LO was not in limerence with me, why did he become genuinely more joyful — directly detected in his eyes? (when I began to chitchat with him again after each NC?). It seemed that my emotions for him weighed more than I had estimated, which was puzzling yet made me feel spiritually needed — not less than the physical need.
Needless to say, that his presence and refreshed interaction with me still brings me dopamine fix, there is no denying of it! (Only my meditation has reduced or removed affects of LE’s negative elements.). Then, how am I going ever to get rid of my limerence or transferring it to something else?
Anyway, thank you for your sharp wits; seeing another’s perspectives out of the similar experiences is so enlightening, although some insights are depressive… *Sigh*
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“If I directly tell him my decision for 4th NC, he’d want to know an answer urgently again like in the past repeatedly. He seemed to have talked with me earnestly only when sensing I was pulling away ”
Yeah, mine did that. We didn’t have any kind of honest conversation but he’d sense I was pulling away, give me a bit of space, and then circle back around. He didn’t want any more from me or to give any more but he didn’t want me to disappear completely.
“You see how it is a catch-22 situation?”
I guess it depends on how much he is in your life. This LO I mentioned … we were only friends for a few weeks. But I saw him daily and we spent quite a bit of time together. He asked me to do something and I was very dismissive when answering him and saying no. And I should have handled that better. But my “disclosure,” such as it would have been, would have been all of two or three sentences telling him why we couldn’t spend any more time together. Whereas other situtations, imo, don’t warrant a “serious conversation.” It depends on how often you are the seeing the person, how close the friendship is, etc. Whereas with my most recent LO … no, I wouldn’t have announced I was going NC. He didn’t deserve the heads up.
“Then, how am I going ever to get rid of my limerence or transferring it to something else?”
The only thing that worked for me was NC. I have done transference but I wouldn’t want to do that again. I don’t want another LE.
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia,
If I was physically “disappeared” at work, LO would pass my office to see if I was around or directly asked me if everything was okay. It felt like my often animated chats (the same with everyone) was a kind of “dopamine” to him. He even said once sincerely, “our interaction (or connection?) is special…” while trying to keep me from pulling away.
In April when I wanted to cut him off entirely in a serious conversation, he asked earnestly, “what do you think it’s missing?” (I complained he did not care for me at all). Then, he tried to improve his behavior in that regard. It felt like he did want to keep a good friendship with me.
“You see how it is a catch-22 situation?”
I guess it depends on how much he is in your life.
2-3 times per week for 6 years (minus winter and summer breaks)… with over 1500 missives, the majority was from me, which were destroyed on his side by my request. But we started again after the new semester began, much, much less.
“It depends on how often you are the seeing the person, how close the friendship is, etc. “
A gentleman LO never ill treated me directly. Lying twice to me about his secret rendezvous with his LO was unnecessary, it was not my business, but his SO’s! Was his lying for not upsetting me or causing my jealousy? But these two small lies shocked me to my core! Before, he appeared like a “Jesus” to me.
However, morally speaking, a truly faithful husband should reject to receive so many personal emails, messages from another woman, right? Of course, I never talked about improper or “dirty” stuff; the word “love” never appeared anywhere, rare even in poems. The missives are all about big topics in life — philosophy, psychology, liberal arts, books, creative writings, etc. like what I conversed and debated with Sammy here.
LO said once to me (on one of my LC talks), “you just sent out those messages out as if to the space, but I’m a PERSON on the other end to read them. They produce effects!” But he did not say what kind of effects.
Some facts about LO and his reality still give my bones chills — are there more secretes in him? The Phantom — the idealized LO, seems to have steadily settled somewhere in my psyche….it’s there 24/7 but has little life nowadays, just an icon, which does not disturb me in any fashion.
“The only thing that worked for me was NC. I have done transference but I wouldn’t want to do that again. I don’t want another LE.”
Ironically, after learning so much about limerence’s natures, I found another NC has become impossible; but transferring my limerence to a genuine friendship with the flawed LO is possible (with my Stoicism and Buddhism), if he wishes.
Nowadays, LO appears more like a person, much less an object; all my resentments from the past 6 years have been melted; last month I apologized in writing for my very mean letter sent to him last November “crowning” him an ugly narcissist — he’s a Sensor, not Narc. He did not respond my apology, but I saw real joy in his blue eyes afterwards….
Nowadays, I rarely fear to admit and apologize for mistakes on my part. It’s a part of being authentic.
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“However, morally speaking, a truly faithful husband should reject to receive so many personal emails, messages from another woman, right?”
I mean, yes, we’re getting into a grey zone. Not sure what you talke about. You could have stopped messaging him, too. I definitely got myself into moral gray zones with limerence. Some weren’t even grey zones. It was outright sketch.
When I mentioned that previous LO …we did things socially. On the weekends. During the week. I don’t remember messaging. This was before texting. He asked me to do something the upcoming Saturday. That’s when I dismissed him.
Again, we weren’t friends very long and maybe only had one “intimate” conversation where we talked a little bit about ourselves (he told me something pretty personal) … but there’s something to be said about seeing someone in person, one-on-one, at their house, late at night. I couldn’t do that anymore.
Snowphoenix says
@Marcia,
“we’re getting into a grey zone. Not sure what you talke about. You could have stopped messaging him, too. “
Because he’s over protective of his social mask (I was able to see a crack 4 years later) he’s very cautious about sharing stuff in his head, while I could without crossing boundary of a friendship — absolutely not my LE sentiments. Still, they are not chitchats (reserved for in-person interaction), and contained random thoughts, sentiments, reflections, short as one line, long as 5-10 pages.
We never did things socially outside work, except a couple walks, tea, lunch, dinner together locally and once in a European city, in my hotel room — no moral lone was crossed as I told you before. He’s a family men dealing with SO and 2 teenage daughters in most afternoons and all weekends. I only heard about them, who never showed up at work.
In 2018, he said he was not the person to receive my “confessional” messages; in 2019, he asked me not to send him any “emotional” messages; in 2020 after my 1st online NC, he started “hoovering Campaign” pursuing me to be his “camaraderie”; in 2021, he was silent about my “dream-recording” messages — w/ LO involved all under PG-14 rated; in 2022 right before my 1st in-person NC, he “begged” to freely send whatever messages… By then he already had his pet LO. I was very puzzled.
After 1st NC was over in my hotel room, he confessed that he “felt lost” when I was pulling down my icy face and sent no messages; in early 2023, I commented something like, “it seemed that I am addicted to writing to the Phantom, and you’re addicted to reading my “stories”. You’re like that Arabian ruler in “One Thousand and One Night”, and I the slave girl, who tells a story every night in order to save her life.” LO denied that he is addicted to my writing. I’ve asked him three times over 4 years to destroy my writings, he did, which also hurt me — I would never comply with such a request and keep them “secretly”.
While interacting in person, one automatically feels without any cognitive recognization. LO repeatedly three times (like delivering an actor’s line) to me, “I like talking with you, and I admire your courage — meaning that I’ve disclosed to him as an idealized parent, Phantom — covering up my Eros in LE.” He gave me a lot of advices and logistic helps in local cultures, whenever I needed (including that European city where I don’t speak the language) . He never asked me to do any kind of favor, while I did a few work-related. He drove me once to a gf’s house next to his suburban town.
“He asked me to do something the upcoming Saturday. That’s when I dismissed him.”
If you liked him so much and already spent some private or intimate time with him, why you refused and even dismissed him”? Was it an improper or impossible request?
“there’s something to be said about seeing someone in person, one-on-one, at their house, late at night. I couldn’t do that anymore.”
Definitely. Neurochemicals of two sides are visually affected and subconsciously make all sorts of sensual impacts; one can’t resist them, no matter with what amount of willpower! You even went to their house at night? That’s a big deal! What happened?
At the beginning (1st 2 years), LO got aroused when I gave him a gaze just for 3 seconds, his eyes would either turn on like a lightbulb or eye-pupils dilate quickly. Later he tried to catch my eyes in the hallways with his intense gazes (when I called upon this act for his intentional leading-on, he denied it and said he did that with everyone else). I always helplessly felt a big shaky or flushing sensation inside my chest, making me very nervous or losing composure around him.
I’m more to spiritual aura, seeing this halo over his head a couple of times in the first 2 years. Nowadays, we are like an old “working couple”, no more intense gazes. But I could see genuine joys in his smiling eyes, he mine — my eyes seem to have become brighter after 3 months of daily mediation, Qi is flowing better overall.
When LO was physically absent, I could not remember/see his face clearly in my head (it’s getting a bit better nowadays); but in my daydreams, everything fanciful and pleasurable could have and have already happened… 🫠
As you see, I’m not sure whether we went beyond the gray area, or had a kind of mutual EA, that was denied fiercely by both sides. We both so wanted to appear/pretend “a good boy and a good girl”! LO knows almost my entire personal history, I some of his — some private issues with his SO.
Marcia says
Snowpheonix,
“If you liked him so much and already spent some private or intimate time with him, why you refused and even dismissed him”? Was it an improper or impossible request?”
Isn’t it obvious? I wanted him. I wanted him to be with him. And he had a girlfriend. Why would I want to hang out with someone else’s boyfriend?
And he was giving me a lot of mixed signals. And I was doing my usual MO — plotting, planning, coming up with ways to seduce, etc.
So I did something really intelligent — I walked. I wish I’d done that with my most recent LO. And the one before that !
All I can say is … having to figure someone out, trying to decipher their messages, calls, behavior, waiting for them to get off their butt and so something … those are all bad signs.
Snowpheonix says
@Marcia,
I understand why you did what you did. You wanted LO, be available and to passionately take you over for even just for a PA. Therefore, LO’s (re)action is a key point to AFFECT your decision to stay or leave. Your DESIRE is fleshy LO, like Butler.
Through all these long discussions and debates with you guys here, I’ve been trying really hard to figure out where my true DESIRE lies. I still find that my DESIRE is the DESIRE itself, regardless LO available or not. Like I said to Sammy, I have been in limerence more with my own DESIRE, not the DESIRED (LO). Therefore, my decision has more to do with what I want to do with my own desire — kill it or keep it alive, independent of or detached from LO’s mind or behaviors, but his existence, still in my life, preferably a substantial, authentic friend; If not, C’est la vie!
“All I can say is … having to figure someone out, trying to decipher their messages, calls, behavior, waiting for them to get off their butt and so something … those are all bad signs.”
What I described in the previous messages is ALL in a “past tense”, since you were recalling your previous experiences. I passed the various LE stages even before I stumbled into LwL. I had given up my hope for the fleshy LO before the summer began, because what he could possibly offer and tried to offer was not and would not be enough for ME. I even repeatedly asked myself (watching his back walking in the hallway): if his SO suddenly disappears, could it possible for me to get together with him? Then I found that imagination chilled my bones through — it’d be really strange and scary, for he still appeared like a Martian! Then I knew I was in LE much more with my own DESIRE for LO, not him as a person.
That’s why I think I’ve begun getting into a post-LE stage that an authentic friendship may be possible (maybe not), since both sides are quite calm and just friendly nowadays. However, this mediocre friendship is still “fake” as Sammy puts it, because my LE for my DESIRE for creativities and for a bit of unrequited giving ( to LO) is still quite alive. I know that my complex mind, largely free of LE pains, sounds very odd to you guys here, which is okay. ☺️ None of you truly knows my COO and understands my past unique experiences that deeply affect my evolving personality.
Maybe my brain is still deeply “muddled” by Tunnov and DrL’s definitions and concepts of limerence, but smiles of joys hang on my face most of the time nowadays. 😁
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“You wanted LO, be available and to passionately take you over for even just for a PA. Therefore, LO’s (re)action is a key point to AFFECT your decision to stay or leave. Your DESIRE is fleshy LO, like Butler.”
All LEs are fleshy, with the exception of people who experience platonic limerence. Which is possible but not as common, and probably more common in teenagers and young adults in their 20s who are very tight with their friend group.
Snowpheonix says
@Marcia,
“All LEs are fleshy, with the exception of people who experience platonic limerence. Which is possible but not as common, and probably more common in teenagers and young adults in their 20s who are very tight with their friend group.”
Without knowing anything about glimmer, I primarily experienced platonic limerence for its first 4 years — I was even glad that LO was unavailable, so our interactions could be a “pure” “reenactment” of a child’s healthy attachment to a parent — an ideal childhood I never had and always searched subconsciously in my encounters with LOs or half-LOs. My cptsd-specialized therapist helped me realize this.
This LO always appeared courteous, cheerful, charming, positive, patient, encouraging, etc. in public, resembling my Father, totally opposite of Mom. Besides chitchats, conversation, missives, rare walks and tea, I did not desire or expect more from LO. He even complained once after 4 years in 202, “we don’t do much while together…” seeing my puzzled face, he quickly added, “talking is nice…”.
The things I did not understand was why LO’s blurry icon was always in my mind, (occasionally in dreams), why I always gravitated to see him in person or confess in missives, and why my nervous system often felt “hijacked” at his presence.
Only after spotting LO glimmering at his LO in 2022, my totally unexpected jealousy made me realize that my “limerence” was not purely platonic, my “flashy” self desired something that my mind was not quite conscious of or resisted due to the morality of both East and West on this regard.
Besides LO #2 who had a girlfriend at the time, I never dealt and refused to deal with any men who was unavailable or taken at the time. Then this “platonic” limerence…. Gosh, every situation/scenario has its first time.
Anyway, it was all over.
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy,
It’s really like writing essays when talking with you here…. 😁
“Oddly enough, I can sympathise with the female side of the equation in your COO i.e. marrying primarily or exclusively for practical reasons, but not the male side, showing how awkwardly I fit into the gendered world, if at all.”
I don’t like how females in my COO are treated or choose to be treated — A marketable Object, whether in limerence or not. My masculinity scared males and alienated females over there. 🤷🏻♀️
Your awkward shows that Eros and Philip in you are much stronger than Pragma, which is demonstrated more in the West since the Romanticism movement, which centers on individuality rather than social or familial responsibility.
“I think the macho notions of “winning” and “losing” sound incredibly cruel (to both men AND women).”
Absolutely! It’s still going on in many cultures. Some claim it to be aligned with Darwinism — Big fish eat small fish; for pair-bonding in animal world or pre-civilization, all males fight for females. ⚔️
“I don’t think a man’s worth should be determined by his ability to “snag” himself an attractive mate. A man should be respected for his character alone.”
Your thought is idealistic, collectively promoted by educated class and progressed through civilization. But at individual level, one’s (majority men or women) mate seems still to be a primary factor to one’s discontent or overall satisfaction in life .
“I feel pair-bonding should be about two people sharing a genuine emotional bond, and if no such bond exists between two people, then nobody has really won anything.”
I thought the same way (I was exposed to French literature at 10.) If no chemistry or magnetic attraction exist between two people, no “battle” of bonding could be fought to win or lose, although a pair-bond could be compelled/forced upon females by males — unfair but still occur. 😡
“There was a bit of this manly rivalry/congratulation/self-congratulation going on in my high school. I didn’t really understand it at the time, and it made me feel uncomfortable.“
Darwinian principles begin at puberty, once hormone in both sexes kick in crazily. 🫠
“I wanted them to like me for me, and not because they thought I had high status. I didn’t see myself as being in competition with other males – at least not romantically, and not usually academically either. I don’t understand this business of liking people for reasons that have very little to do with the person“
Your sense of self is very strong. I was the same way without ability to notice or understand what’s going on. But many people all over the world “like” or “respect” others based on pragmatic, egotistical reasons (really for potential personal gains) — social, economic status, popularity, prestige, appearance, etc.
“Being rejected by a girl wouldn’t negatively affect my mental health as a teenager, or even today because I wouldn’t view her rejection of me as a reflection of my worth. I’d simply assume that she sat down, did the sums, and decided we didn’t have compatible personalities. Or I was too “boring” to spend an evening with… “
What if you were in limerence with her as a LO?
“Being rejected by a male never came up, as our school did not permit same-sex formal partners. Still, if it did happen hypothetically, I wouldn’t see it as a reflection of my mating value. I would assume the other male, just like the female, found reasons in his mind as to why we were incompatible.”
Well, a descent number of people judge their romantic and mating value or manhood/womanhood by number of acceptation or rejection they receive from their counter sex. In latter, their confidence or ego can be “wounded”, affecting their mental health.
“In Western culture, romantic love is celebrated very extravagantly in popular culture. So it’s surprising to me that most people aren’t using it as a general guide to pair-bonding. I guess everybody else got some memo I didn’t get? “
Romanticism has its fatal elements that could ruin love or a long-term relationship, which the School of Life seems to promote —
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/opinion/sunday/why-you-will-marry-the-wrong-person.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare — Why you will marry the wrong person?
https://youtu.be/jltM5qYn25w?si=S2CMgINfZ9Mc3WpI — How Romanticism Ruined Love
“That’s interesting. It’s also interesting you use the term “evil craving” to describe limerent yearning. “
Myself did not the term, but the voice from my COO used it — craving for any kind of pleasure or gratification is considered “evil” (melodramatic, of course) — sex, food, drinks, chemical substances…
“But I think it’s a tad melodramatic to use the word “evil”. I’ve never viewed craving as evil. I see craving as inconvenient sometimes, or utterly inexplicable, or a waste of time. But I don’t assign any moral value to craving by itself. Craving simply is. Craving is a fact of life.”
You’re lucky to grow up on this side of the Globe! That’s why I said before that there was so much brainwash I had to undo after coming to the west. It used to be like this thought-police in my head subconsciously 24/7 patrolling, reminding, or hammering the mind for any secrete desiring or craving. Self-censoring is much worse than social pressures for virtues. 😨
“It’s hard to feel guilty about pleasure if one, like me, has always struggled to define pleasure in the first place (due to difficulty naming feelings). “
Pair-bonding is most powerful force and gives one the best pleasure, which could lead to sex-addition, PA and ruin families and stable relationships; so ecstasy of sex is always associated with “dangerous” or “evil” 👺 in both East and West, regardless specific religion or ideology.
“And one might not even realise one is experiencing ecstasy until one stops feeling ecstasy, and starts feeling either depression or indifference. Pleasure that’s located all in the mind seems pretty hard for either the individual or society to pin down. “
Your observation here is quite accurate — ecstasy or pleasure is located ALL in the mind, although obtained through physical activities: a chitchat with LO, daydreaming about the Phantom, cardio workouts, and completion of a poem. For spiritual pleasure, mine primarily comes from meditation and creative writing — the process itself.
“Stoicism is a mask I developed largely to protect myself from the envy and rage of my always-unhappy narcissistic mother. “
Sounds like you’re describing my mother in a milder degree.
“I hide my true personality less these days, because I’ve discovered non-narcissistic people are rarely bothered by other people’s true personalities. “
Very true! Non-narcissistic and secure people focus on their own purposeful living and would genuinely feel happy for your joys and sympathetic your sorrows, some would empathize or further their help if you need.
“I imagine both religious mystics and nature-lovers experience spiritual ecstasy of a sort that’s not related to other human beings. Maybe musicians too, as they compose or perform their works.”
Growing up in dominantly non religious/spiritual but materialistic society, I can only imagine such spiritual ecstasy from the nature — their sense of “oneness” with the whole universe. For me, it’s story telling about oneself interacting with other people in the midst active living — any form of invigorating life.
“A lot of people probably feel betrayed by people in life, but perhaps not as profoundly as the limerent feels betrayed. The limerent has “put all their eggs” into one basket, so to speak, and then watched those eggs break. Hence, the emptiness the limerent feels when an LE begins to wane…”
Such vivid, accurate metaphor you’re giving here…
“I think the morality of infatuation is always relevant to people who worry about moral issues. But you’re right – an LO might not be aware of how morally conflicted the limerent feels about interacting/continuing to interact with LO. An LO is unlikely to assign moral value to the act of glimmering at limerent.”
Particular a Sensor or Narc LO would shamelessly glimmer at limerents, it’s delightful game for them (available or not) to play, or subconsciously act out. Once I called out LO’s eye contact, he argued in writing that he looked at all his colleagues the same way; to me, it’s “obviously” untrue.
“Ah, no, no, no, no. Both you and Nisor seem to have taken this last remark of mine wrong, although perhaps only in jest. “
Yes, I was more than half in jest! 😁
“But what is a heart if the contents of said heart can never be shared?” simply means to me that it’s refreshing to share one’s emotions with another person. “
Annie Ernaux shared her “Simple Passion” (she does not know the term, Limerence) with the whole world, but protected her lover, who speaks Russian and disliked reading literature. I have finally realized and benefited from the liberating effect of such sharing in LwL. The repressed emotions accumulated in several LEs were like stones sitting on the chest for years or decades, and most of limerents have felt there is no outlet to share this unnamed “impactful thing”.
“I am not at all suggesting disclosing to LO unless the following three conditions are met:
(1) Both limerent and LO are single and free to act.”
Not in my case.
(2) The limerent is close to 100% sure the LO reciprocates feelings, and would welcome the disclosure.
Not sure. Although a Sensor LO might welcome the disclosure for his own ego booster, not for reciprocation of my affection. Each time I went back being friendly with him after LC/NC, I saw genuine joy flicking in his eyes, which made it hard to let go off the idea, “He never cared about my feelings or thoughts for him.”
(3) The limerent isn’t 100% sure LO reciprocates, but knows LO is a very kind person who will let down limerent firmly but gently. “
This LO behaved like a chameleon, so my usually accurate intuition has been muddled back and forth; I can’t trust it anymore. So I just take his “let me down” as a fact; he will never be unkind to me based on what I know of him.
“Also, limerent should feel they have the emotional resilience to cope with rejection should rejection occur.”
I wonder if building the emotional resilience is something I can practice through the disclosure — Expose Therapy: taking LO’s rejection as a fact (this LO would never take an initial to let me go) and meeting it with a head-on — disclose LE to LO and hear a rejection or unfavorable responses. 🤔
DrL says that some LOs will still hold an ambivalent attitude even if limerents disclose. But the goal here is NOT get an answer or anything in return from LO, but just to reveal LE as a piece of history that existed not only in limerent’s head but also turned limerent’s life upside down in some fashion. 🙃
A scene —
Once upon a time, I had this neurochemical imbalance and developed Limerence addiction to a person — You. Before I did not know what it was, and we were both mystified by our confusing interactions. Now, I’ve learned a great deal about limerence, so it’s time to tell you what had happened on my side…. It’s not about you as a bystander, it’s all about my altered mental state…. 🙂
Give factual answers or explanations if questions are asked, no Blaming LO, no self-deprecating, no self-pitying, no apologizing, no soliciting or guessing LO’s emotional states back then and currently, thanking him for putting up with my mood swings and confusing LC/NCs in all those years. 🙂
Then, if LO gives some responses, that’s fine; if not, still fine. The hardest part is TRULY expect Nothing from LO! Once expectation of any sort sneaks in, uncertainty and anxiety would follow to haunt me. 😨
I wonder if disclosure in such a manner would actually help my mind exit limerence completely and build emotional resilience one step further. 🧐
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“My masculinity scared males and alienated females over there. 🤷🏻♀️”
Tennov calls limerents “shy predators” and LOs “wily prey”. (My sister hates the description – finds it objectionable). I wonder if this means limerents, irrespective of biological sex, are always playing the role traditionally reserved for males i.e. hunter/pursuer and LOs are always playing the role traditionally reserved for females i.e. hunted/pursued? Obviously, if so, things must get very confusing for folk caught up in mutual limerence!! 😲
“Your awkward shows that Eros and Philip in you are much stronger than Pragma, which is demonstrated more in the West since the Romanticism movement, which centers on individuality rather than social or familial responsibility.”
Yes, very sobering to think one might just be a product of one’s era/culture, and not “an original” after all… Am I “a Romantic;’ because modern culture has manipulated me to be “a Romantic”? In other words, there’s nothing rebellious about being a Romantic, because Western society more or less sanctions the rebellion of the Romantic, thereby rendering Romanticism itself non-rebellious? Could people who reject Romanticism as a philosophy be the true “social outlaws” of the modern West? 🤔🤣
“What if you were in limerence with her as a LO?”
If I were limerent for a female LO, and she rejected me, I guess my mental health would take a nosedive, but I wouldn’t necessarily blame that nosedive on her. I’d blame that nosedive on not getting what I wanted. Frustration of desire. Disappointment leading to … depression maybe? I’ve never been comfortable with the idea of blaming LOs for anything.
Additionally, in limerence, according to Tennov, one is very sensitive to cues from LO, and hurt very easily by unintended slights or signs of disinterest. If I had a female LO, and she hadn’t outright rejected me but didn’t give me a lot of positive feedback either, I’d probably feel hurt all the time by all those little displays of disinterest i.e. when she found the company of other people a lot more exciting or enjoyable than my own. 😉
“Pair-bonding is most powerful force and gives one the best pleasure, which could lead to sex-addition, PA and ruin families and stable relationships; so ecstasy of sex is always associated with “dangerous” or “evil” 👺 in both East and West, regardless specific religion or ideology.”
I think, in all humans, there may be a “drive for pleasure” and a “drive for virtue”. In other words, all healthy human beings are probably attracted toward stoicism and also attracted toward hedonism. I think pleasure and conventional morality can’t really be reconciled – pleasure and morality are always in opposition with each other. (Would you agree, by the way, that “stoicism” and “hedonism” are opposites?)
I think, in the late 20th century, marriage or “social monogamy” has been used in some circles – especially Evangelical Christian circles – to reconcile pleasure and morality. (Christians are encouraged – quite absurdly – to have a lot of hot marital sex by some churches). But marriage I think is an imperfect solution to the deep divisions inside human nature.
As the video “How Romanticism Ruined Love” points out, modern ideals of marriage are a Western, middle-class phenomena that have steadily gained ground since the Victorian period. (Maybe we can blame Jane Austen for kicking off the trend, although even her sickest of lovesick heroines often marry very rich men, indicating a strong emphasis on pragma). 😉
Long short story: the Romanticism so prevalent in every part of Western society has started to permeate even some churches – churches that traditionally stood for and promoted the opposite of Romantic values.
“Annie Ernaux shared her “Simple Passion” (she does not know the term, Limerence) with the whole world, but protected her lover, who speaks Russian and disliked reading literature.”
I think composing a work of literature about LO/limerence is an act of disclosure, especially if the work is published. I still haven’t read “A Simple Passion” yet, but I looked up some reviews.
It sounds like Ernaux is walking in the footsteps of Proust in the sense she explores time and memory, but she takes Proustian themes in a new direction. It sounds like Ernaux exalts spiritual ecstasy and not bodily ecstasy, despite writing about limerence.
In a sense, we could say Ernaux is the opposite of D. H. Lawrence. D. H. Lawrence did a wonderful job of writing about the body, but in his eagerness to write about the body, he seemed to forget that human beings also have minds. It sounds like Ernaux views the “obsessive element” of the passion she felt/writes about as the thing that proves so destructive. Her lover almost seems like a stranger to her emotionally. 🤔
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
“I wonder if this means limerents, irrespective of biological sex, are always playing the role traditionally reserved for males i.e. hunter/pursuer and LOs are always playing the role traditionally reserved for females i.e. hunted/pursued? Obviously, if so, things must get very confusing for folk caught up in mutual limerence!!”
That makes a lot of sense. While both in mutual limerence, the pull-n-push ball are thrown back and forth confusingly. I got it somewhat in my early LE; although I can not say LO was in LE. He’s a doubtless Sensor (by self-confession), that means he would not let go my LE attention, or anyone else’s favor. I think at one point, my eyes were a bit hypnotic to him, since I saw his gaze lost inside or behind my eyes and had to move my face to get it “back”.
“Yes, very sobering to think one might just be a product of one’s era/culture, and not “an original” after all… Am I “a Romantic;’ because modern culture has manipulated me to be “a Romantic”?”
All of us are a product of our original culture, but personality can and have to change, subtly or drastically, if one relocates to another different culture. Most Westerners are more romantic in general than Easterners, I was more than my COO folks because I read more western classical literature with a high sensitivity.
“In other words, there’s nothing rebellious about being a Romantic, because Western society more or less sanctions the rebellion of the Romantic, thereby rendering Romanticism itself non-rebellious?”
In the East, being romantic used to be rebellious, laughed at. But the globalization has made romanticism on a rise all over places, although still resisted by and incorporated with Pragma in pair-bonding and marriage. In the west, rendering Romanticism seems to be taken for granted for the majority.
“Could people who reject Romanticism as a philosophy be the true “social outlaws” of the modern West? “
It seems so. The School of Life is considered somewhat a reverse of the western mainstream, against a lot of popular culture. It adopts some philosophy and spirituality from the East and combines them with that of the West, eg. talk therapies with yogas/mindful meditations.
“Additionally, in limerence, according to Tennov, one is very sensitive to cues from LO, and hurt very easily by unintended slights or signs of disinterest.”
My case was like this before I learned about limerence. Back then, LO even complained that my claim of his slighting was “perceived”. I never understood why I was so sensitive and negatively suspicious of LO’s “displays of disinterests,” big or small; then got either anxiety or panic attacks. I tended to be pessimistic, particularly in this dead end dynamic.
“I think, in all humans, there may be a “drive for pleasure” and a “drive for virtue”. In other words, all healthy human beings are probably attracted toward stoicism and also attracted toward hedonism. “
Not quite agree here. I don’t think there is a “drive for virtue”, maybe for social-bonding. Almost no one (except enlightened monks, clergymen, true Stoic such as Seneca, Marcus Aurelious) is attracted toward stoicism — only controls one’s own inner and outer behaviors, and LET GO (not worried about) anything external: others’ mind and behaviors, and the natural environment — diseases, weather, death, wars, etc. Stoicism a really hard discipline to follow and to practice. On the other hand, hedonism is so much easier to adopt. Curiously, we don’t see animals demonstrate hedonism, their body seem to know when is enough.
“I think pleasure and conventional morality can’t really be reconciled – pleasure and morality are always in opposition with each other. (Would you agree, by the way, that “stoicism” and “hedonism” are opposites?)”
I don’t see stoicism and hedonism are opposite. Stoicism has a lot of overlapping ethics and morality with Buddhism. Stoicism distinguish what’s in one’s control and what is NOT — LO’s anything and everything would be out of limerent’s control, yet we helplessly ruminate about it. Buddhism emphasizes detachment from worldly possessions and our driven mind — ego, desires, losses, because all attachments produces pains — more than “normal folks”, we’re more attached to our limerent affection and fantasy for LO, while unreciprocated, immeasurable pains are procured WITHIN.
As a Stoic, one can still enjoy what one has acquired or what’s in one’s control — achievements, food, friends, “virtue” sex and other pleasures in moderation, as long as they’re NOT “desiring” or trying to “control” others — impossible anyway! Buddhism stresses non-Ego state (little achievement would ever be obtained) and detachments from all desires as well pains, which I find this would be too much for me, impractical and unnecessary.
“But marriage I think is an imperfect solution to the deep divisions inside human nature.
Agree. Beside the impossibility of monogamy — humans are not biologically programmed like Swans, we are also get “bored” by repetitions or seemingly permanence. Has anyone observed boredom in animal kingdom? Schopenhauer (influenced by Buddhism), “Life swings like a pendulum backward and forward between pain(desire) and boredom.” One can hardly rest in either state, how to? Oscar Wilde: “There are only two tragedies in life; one is not getting what one wants, the other is getting it.”
“I think composing a work of literature about LO/limerence is an act of disclosure, especially if the work is published.”
Yes, more courageous! One’s wiling to reveal one’s limerent nakedness and shamelessly confesses to the world: under a facade of successes, virtues, normality, one can still be driven by limerence and fall to a point of destruction to oneself and everything around oneself.
“I still haven’t read “A Simple Passion” yet, but I looked up some reviews.
It sounds like Ernaux is walking in the footsteps of Proust in the sense she explores time and memory, but she takes Proustian themes in a new direction. It sounds like Ernaux exalts spiritual ecstasy and not bodily ecstasy, despite writing about limerence.”
You’ll have to read it for yourself to see how you would understand it with your unique 👁️ . She enjoys a great deal of sex with the emotionally unavailable man whom she knows almost nothing (not even enough facts), not focusing on physical connection, but her unknown psychology during the whole affair, and how she came out of it one year later. (At one point, she could not get out of bed literally)
“In a sense, we could say Ernaux is the opposite of D. H. Lawrence. D. H. Lawrence did a wonderful job of writing about the body, but in his eagerness to write about the body, he seemed to forget that human beings also have minds. It sounds like Ernaux views the “obsessive element” of the passion she felt/writes about as the thing that proves so destructive. Her lover almost seems like a stranger to her emotionally. “
Gosh, without reading the book, you’ve figured out the differences between D.H. Lawrence and Ernaux’s lovers stories. Yes, Ernaux is exploring how “simple passion” could drive one mad while Lawrence celebrates the forbidden love between different social classes. I don’t get a sense that Ernaux celebrates her physically enjoyed “simple passion” but nakedly demonstrates its destructive force.
I would be a forbidden lover if I had accepted the PA offer.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
First up, thank you for sharing that School of Life video “How Romanticism Ruined Romance”. I thought it was pretty cool. And I can see how it’s combines ideas from East and West, as you say. I think it’s a bit sad that globalisation means the East is being more influenced by the West than vice versa. I think Western culture could be greatly enriched by more influence from the East. It’s a shame that the exchange between cultures isn’t more even. 🤔
“Not quite agree here. I don’t think there is a “drive for virtue”, maybe for social-bonding. Almost no one (except enlightened monks, clergymen, true Stoic such as Seneca, Marcus Aurelious) is attracted toward stoicism — only controls one’s own inner and outer behaviors, and LET GO (not worried about) anything external: others’ mind and behaviors, and the natural environment — diseases, weather, death, wars, etc. Stoicism a really hard discipline to follow and to practice. On the other hand, hedonism is so much easier to adopt.”
I’m thinking there must be a “drive for virtue” because social bonds cannot thrive without trust. People have to be able to trust each other in order to cooperate, and build things i.e. a safe and happy community everyone can enjoy and everyone can benefit from.
If everyone in the world decides to be naughty at the first possible opportunity to be naughty, and betray friends and family in the process, then trust would break down, and pleasant community life would break down. We’d all lose out big time. Trust is the foundation of any society (or local neighbourhood) worth living in. 😉
“Curiously, we don’t see animals demonstrate hedonism, their body seem to know when is enough.”
Agreed. Animals in nature aren’t programmed for hedonism. Animals in nature are programmed for survival (and reproduction). It’s mainly human beings who make an idol out of pleasure, perhaps due to the large size of our brains. We know how to extract highly addictive, pleasure-inducing substances from crops we grow, etc.
“I don’t see stoicism and hedonism are opposite. Stoicism has a lot of overlapping ethics and morality with Buddhism.”
Can you suggest a suitable opposite for hedonism? Is it asceticism? Is asceticism a way of life compatible with most Buddhist thinking?
“Agree. Beside the impossibility of monogamy — humans are not biologically programmed like Swans, we are also get “bored” by repetitions or seemingly permanence.”
I don’t think monogamy is impossible. I think the belief that monogamy is impossible is some strain of Romanticism infecting modern thought. I believe lifelong monogamy is entirely reasonable – as long as couples can accept that the first flush of passion fades and one is not going to feel about one’s partner in one’s early 40s as one felt about one’s partner in one’s early 20s. 🤔
That incredible chemically-driven attraction people feel when young – I think that’s about Mother Nature pushing people to make babies. I’m not saying people, particularly women, don’t experience incredibly strong hormonal attractions or the desire to pair-bond after prime childbearing years are past. Obviously, older people of both sexes do experience infatuation. I’m saying that the main biological justification for these urges lessens considerably as one ages, and make these urges seem just a tiny bit undignified to many people. 🤔
In essence, what I’m saying is, there’s a lot of behaviours no sane human being would engage in unless … they were being rewarded by dopamine. Dopamine makes a lot of behaviours seem desirable and enjoyable. If dopamine wasn’t in the picture, these behaviours wouldn’t seem desirable and enjoyable. For example, there are people who report zero interest in sex until they fall in love for the first time. In other words, the dopamine rush of “falling in love” makes sex seem like something worth doing, not something “yucky”. 😉
“Gosh, without reading the book, you’ve figured out the differences between D.H. Lawrence and Ernaux’s lovers stories.”
It’s a weird trait of mine, but I actually enjoy reading literary criticism WAAAY more than I enjoy reading literature itself! 🤣
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy,
I’ve attempted to post a response here three times, but they were all cut. I can’t understand why.
I’ll try another time.
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy,
My unconscious just punished me last night by giving me a true nightmare with LO directly involved — too embarrassing or fear to tell here. The unconscious does not lie and will, if one listens to and trust it, warn the consciousness of its intentions, schemes, possible fearful consequences…
If I were unable to separate night dreams and reality, I’d be going some horror melangehiding under my desk. Negative imaginations affected by cptsd could mass up one’s neurochemical system and hijack or even paralyze one’s logical thinking…
I guess I’m not ready or it is just not time to disclose! Contemplation and discussion about it is fine, but an irretrievable action might produce a chain of unseeable disasters. I’ll hold onto my own ground, healing more on my own, with invaluable help of LwL.
Nisor says
Hi Snow,
I’ve been thinking about you and your deep desire to disclose to LO. Very understandable! It’s quite difficult situation because you don’t know for sure how lo feels for you. That’s why I think Sammy’s suggestions for disclosure are key to keep in mind. I believe you have to think it over more before you do anything, to be certain that you don’t get hurt, if lo behaves contrary to your wishes or hoped for. Your LO, I believe you said, he’s married and straight? sorry if I’m mistaken. Please clarify for me, and forgive me if I’m intruding too much. Just want to make sure of what kind of situation you’re in an explore ways to help you find a solution.
Do you know that I disclosed to my LO last year, after forty nine years of not hearing from him.? ( we were mutually in love back then). I didn’t know about Limerence then. But even though I had found his phone number it took me five wrenching months to take the courage to call. I was debating with myself if I would open a Pandora’s box and how I was going to face it. Believe me it was living through hell before I could gather the courage. It was a gamble I took. But I knew he has loved me before and his last words to me were: “I have never before loved another woman more than you.” And that he wanted me to know that.”
But I wasn’t sure if he’d even remember me or my name, after all, I was only part of his life for only three years and so many years has passed by. I was nearing a nervous breakdown with this incessant desire to connect with him and tell him that he is the love of my life. I didn’t care if he felt different, I just had to tell LO. That’s how crazy one can get with limerence!
Your circumstances are different and you see him often at work, so it’s kind of difficult to asses the damage or any the good outcome, who knows…
A tight hug for you and be strong 💪🏽.
Mila says
Hi Snowphoenix,
I don’t have much time these days to read all posts, just skim over, but I read your bit about disclosing…
Intelligent as you are, you know that when disclosing theoretically you shouldn’t have any expectations of any sorts of LOs reactions.
But in what state of mind concerning the limerence would one have to be to that detached?
Also you would, as I understood, describe the LE as something in the past, once upon a time… but it‘s not true, is it? You would disclose to help yourself conquering the limerence, which means it‘s not over yet.
I would be very careful with claiming that it is over if it isn’t, and also with thinking you have no expectations.
I once thought in the same lines, and then, when he reacted, I realized that I did have expectations- not that he reciprocated or not- I expected him for example to hear me out patiently, to understand what I was saying, to nod and give respectful answers… he didn’t react at all like that and it wasn’t at all the closure I was hoping for.
Also, LOs are real people and one affects their life with disclosure too- that has to be thought of.
And third, it will forever affect your relationship with him, that has also be thought of.
If you are really done with your LE, then it would be easy to do as you imagine. But I guess then you wouldn’t have any need and incentive to disclose anyway, and just get on with your life.
But if there are still residues of LE, it would be incredibly hard to disclose and be that detached and wise to not expect anything, I think, at least for me. I wouldn’t put myself through such an ordeal if I were you, if it’s not urgently necessary for your peace of mind.
Snowpheonix says
@Nisor:
“It’s quite difficult situation because you don’t know for sure how lo feels for you. That’s why I think Sammy’s suggestions for disclosure are key to keep in mind. I believe you have to think it over more before you do anything, to be certain that you don’t get hurt, if lo behaves contrary to your wishes or hoped for.”
I 99% know how LO feels for me, I am just a superficial, more than friendly colleague — enjoy talking with me, admiring my brave honesty, helping me with logistical needs or occasional giving some professional advices, but no emotional reciprocated for my LE; otherwise, he would have acted out, as Marcia says (he has already acted out for his own secrete LO); there have been plenty of opportunities. In my previous message to Sammy, I even said I already considered LO’s “rejection— unfavorite responses” as a FACT; it’s based on my observations, not just a pure Stoic trick.
I think I may wish to hurt less or get rid of this redial LE pain (no more resentments) by a disclosure, which would force both sides to face and deal with this unauthentic, one-side-hurting dynamic. If I want to completely forget about him for the rest of my life, I’ll just pull off LC/NC on my own, no need for any disclosure. But I hope to have (not yet) an authentic friendship after my LE; whether this disclosure could help first end my LE completely remains a big question!
“Your LO, I believe you said, he’s married and straight?”
Yes, you remember well, with SO of 27 years and two college daughters.
“Your circumstances are different and you see him often at work, so it’s kind of difficult to asses the damage or any the good outcome, who knows.”
I’ve subtly disclosed to him before — viewing him as an ideal, surrogate parent for me to express the grief of losing my father and the frustration/anger of dealing with Narc Mom who is living near me. I trust that he has not revealed all these to anyone else and destroyed our correspondence on his side. I never used the word “love”, suggested EA or PA, what could he reveal to public?
The only possible good outcome could be that this uncomfortable, “fake” “friendship” change to a more authentic friendship. But I have little hope for it, because he lied plenty before in order to keep me stringed, and he hates to admit any wrongdoings — as far as he concerns, he has done nothing wrong; it’s his own business to tell me whatever or to go regular secret rendezvous.
@Mila,
“you know that when disclosing theoretically you shouldn’t have any expectations of any sorts of LOs reactions.”
Yes, absolutely. .
“But in what state of mind concerning the limerence would one have to be to that detached?”
In a state of Stoic mind, which assumes the worst and makes efforts to cope with all possible worst situations.
“Also you would, as I understood, describe the LE as something in the past, once upon a time… but it‘s not true, is it? You would disclose to help yourself conquering the limerence, which means it‘s not over yet.”
That description has errors. You’re right, my LE is not completely over yet. It should be written: Once upon a time, A happened (Glimmer), then B followed (Limerence), now C is ongoing (disturbing LE tail)…
“I would be very careful with claiming that it is over if it isn’t, and also with thinking you have no expectations.”
Now I have worse expectations than no expectations, which indicates that my mind is not at peace or indifference; it’s still in a limerence state of agitation or frustration for this seemingly pleasant “Limbo”. Only after each meditation, I feel peaceful or even giddy, but I can’t meditate 24/7.
“I once thought in the same lines, and then, when he reacted, I realized that I did have expectations- not that he reciprocated or not- I expected him for example to hear me out patiently, to understand what I was saying, to nod and give respectful answers… he didn’t react at all like that and it wasn’t at all the closure I was hoping for.”
I total resonate with your wishes here. At this point, I think I want to clarify that “mystification” both of us had felt in the past whole year, which engined me to do research and find LwL. LO is smart to understand it, but how he would react I have little glue. That’s where my Stoicism would have to kick in.
I wish a closure for the confusing past 6 years, and maybe or may not start a new chapter. Should limerent or LO (a confused one — I turned down his offers) keep some clouds circling in their head for the rest of their life, as if we are too immature to face the reality?
“Also, LOs are real people and one affects their life with disclosure too- that has to be thought of”
As I just told Nisor, a half of a closure already took place — he’s treated as a surrogate-parent figure, but I absolute denied Eros was involved (he denied it, too). None of us knew the term, limerence. Two years ago he asked me whether it was an affair, I said No. (I consciously treated him as a surrogate father, without understanding the nature of Glimmer)
“And third, it will forever affect your relationship with him, that has also be thought of.”
That’s what I hope for! No more the current, between 0 to 100, fake or zombie friendship”. Since 100%, or even 50%, is impossible, then I’ll have to take ZERO. I wish disclosure could disturb or break the present Limbo state on my side.
“If you are really done with your LE, then it would be easy to do as you imagine. But I guess then you wouldn’t have any need and incentive to disclose anyway, and just get on with your life.”
Exactly! If wishing a permenant NC for the future, then no need for disclosure. But if wishing otherwise, discloser has to take place — an authentic friendship needs truths, no matter how embarrassing my limerence has made the dynamic awkward. And this true friendship ca no longer have secrete longing running underneath.
I constantly ask myself: if am really not egotistic about admitting my vulnerability, if I am truly humble about mistakes I have made, and if I’m sincerely authentic to myself and others, why am I so afraid of disclose, or to “make a fool” of myself in front of “nice” LO (even if knowing that would gratify his Sensor/Narc needs)? — how he would act or react, feel or not feel is forever out of my control, so why worry so much about a honest disclosure, as if it were a death sentence?
“But if there are still residues of LE, it would be incredibly hard to disclose and be that detached and wise to not expect anything, I think, at least for me.”
I have been weighing pros and cons, back and forth almost everyday for 4 weeks. I also want to take this possible “ordeal” as a practice for my Stoicism, as a “expose therapy” for my cptsd (I have to deal with this bigger “monster” simultaneously) — OCD, fears/paranoia, abandonment melange (I’ve been increasing exposes to its triggers), social timidity, worries of others’ judging eyes and of all sorts…. I feel coward not doing enough to help end my limerence in my reality.
“I wouldn’t put myself through such an ordeal if I were you, if it’s not urgently necessary for your peace of mind.”
The rumination of “yes” or “no” to disclosure at daily basis, is pulling my hard-obtained peace out of my mind. I sometimes had to do 4-30 or 2-60 minute meditation sessions each day just to keep my neurons calm; I’m sensitive enough to feel their agitation, like after overdosing coffee.
My body gets tired down more than during the summer, when I was going NC. Indeed, limerence is so hard to die!
Mila says
Snowphoenix,
Do you think a true and honest friendship is possible with this guy?
I just ask because you yourself describe him as lying and stringing along, as cheating on his SO with someone (or am I wrong here?). This is not meant as a moral judgement. He can do what he wants, I just wonder if he‘s capable of the sort of friendship that you have in mind.
I still think that disclosure is a very unpredictable thing. There are ways he could react that maybe you can’t anticipate and that would throw you back instead of ending limerence.
But you sound vexed and as if you believe that almost every outcome of disclosure would be better than the current state of uncertainty. But will disclosure really end uncertainty? I‘m not so sure.
But I totally understand the urge to act, to be active instead of suffering.
I think the only person who knows what‘s right for you is you. Trust your instincts!
Speedwagon says
I disclosed to my coworker/employee LO. I regret it and it did not lessen my limerence. It has killed off what little friendship I had with LO. Looking back with a clearer head now, the disclosure was just another tactic of pursuing her and was completely selfish on my part.
I would advocate against disclosure.
Nisor says
Snow, hi,
I’m feeling your pain because I went through the same ordeal. Just wanted all that pain out of
my chest regardless of the consequences to my well being. But, I didn’t have to face LO at any time or hear from him ever again. He’s in another continent, I wasn’t looking for a real friendship. I can never be a friend to a person I love.
I see you want to keep lo as a friend if possible. Or don’t you care if anything adverse happens, and he rejects you as a friend after you disclose, can you handle it? Are you willing to confront it on your own? Be ok with that? Ready to loose the friendship, what about seeing him at work after that, how would you feel? Do you have an SO to turn to if things go wrong? So many questions…
You stay calm and strong 💪🏽 a tight hug for you.
Snowpheonix says
@Mila, Speedwagon, Nisor,
I just replied all your messages here with a long reply., but it did not get posted but lost somehow. I don’t have energy to retype it, but considering it as a lost dairy entry.
Thank you for all your cares and inputs, I take them seriously. I’ll keep you posted for whatever I decide to do.
DrL: what happened to my post?
Snowpheonix says
Dr L: Is it Proust’s saying, inappropriately quoted here, that got censored and cut?
Mila says
Hi Snowphoenix,
I don’t think Dr L erased it, I lost a post too recently or thought so, but when I tried to reply again, it suddenly was there again🤷🏻♀️
Snowpheonix says
@Mila
I don’t think Dr L erased it, either, I think the system did automatically, really fast, probably because of certain words or phrases. I lost 2 posts in “Limerence Music” a little while ago, meaning I reposted it, and it was still cut.
Last evening, it was only time I composed a long message here on the site, instead of a word processor “outside”, it pained me to lose a well-thought response, after over 2 hours (took a great deal of thinking) of composing and editing. Still, my psyche got its needed, contemplation, it’s beneficial enough.
For every post, I carefully examined whether the thoughts and responses (even just a word) are authentic to myself first. One cannot and should not “lie” to one”s Self before answering external questions — it’s a deep psychotherapy work.
Snowpheonix says
In the song I was trying to upload, there is a word “hate” (I hate myself….); in Proust’s quote, “lying” (Lying is….) It’s just their opinions, not attacking anyone.
I wonder what inappropriate words or phrases would be censored by the system and then a whole post would be cut.
From now on, I’ll remember always to compose in an outside word processor first, then paste it here.
Snowpheonix says
I’m just curious if my post will get cut again, it’s evident that they are not my words; I could never be able to speak such an insight…
“Lying is essential to humanity. It plays as large a part perhaps as the quest for pleasure, and is moreover governed by that quest. One lies in order to protect one’s pleasure, or one’s honour if the disclosure of one’s pleasure runs counter to one’s honour. One lies all one’s life long, even, especially, perhaps only, to those who love one. For they alone make us fear for our pleasure and desire their esteem.”
Sammy talked about human’s innate desire to see pleasure and most of us care about virtues and honors in the culture; so I think the above quote is talking about “white lies” that avoid hurting our beloved.
Limerent Emeritus says
If you get your email wrong when you post, the post goes into a moderation queue until DrL can review it.
Did you accidentally post in another blog? That happens.
Toss in that trees only go three deep and it’s easy to lose track of your posts. If there’s a lot of posts, it’s better to start an entirely new post and quote what you’re referencing.
Snowpheonix says
Typo: seek pleasure.
It worked — the message got posted without the phrase: -“Marcel Proust, The Captive / The Fugitive”
I cannot be copy right issue here, either.
Snowpheonix says
@LE
I don’t use any other blog in the entire world; this one keeps me busy enough in learning and growing, I’m very grateful…
Thanks for the response, I’ll be double careful next time, checking the email address; usually given by my “AutoFill contact” ; if typing each time, there would be more chances for typos.
Have a lovely day! 🫠
Nisor says
Snow hi,
On Proust’s quote about lying, I was listening to a song today that precisely was addressing that “illness” in relationships.
Translation to English
“ Lie to me some more/ I’m already living with your lies/I know your love is not sincere/ I know you lie when you kiss me/ and you lie when you say, ‘I love
you’/ Lie to me till eternity/ your wickedness makes me happy/ After all life is but a lie.
If one analyses it, we will discover the deception and how many lies are said all day long, by us and by others around us, both on small and big issues … ( if we’re hiding something from someone else is considered lying! There’s not such thing as a white lie, a lie has no color… a lie is a lie)
Are you much better today? Have a goodnight sleep.❤️
Nisor says
Seven ways lying by omission hurts relationships
1) It causes a breakdown in communication
2) secrets can be hurtful to your health
3) hiding a problem puts a hold on any constructive solution
4) lies of omission lead to misunderstandings
5) when the truth comes out, the loss of trust maybe permanent
6) if you kept one thing secret, what else are you not telling them?
7) what starts as self -protection ends as self-sabotage
Can we relate to these seven steps?
Adam says
“5) when the truth comes out, the loss of trust maybe permanent”
This might very well be what I am living. She says she forgives me. Okay that I do believe. I do not think she would lie to me. But does she trust me again? A complete loss of intimacy of any kind is a huge indicator for me. And why would you want to be intimate if you feel you can’t trust your husband.
Then I may not have known what was going on in my head but I did know that it shouldn’t be going on in my head but said nothing. I lied to myself flat out and lied to her by omission.
Limerent Emeritus says
Nisor,
IMO, Lies of Omission are Passive-Aggressive. Passive-Aggressive behavior is a kind of guerilla war fought by people who can’t or won’t directly confront someone.
It’s rampant in the military. My grandfather waged a Passive-Aggressive war with my grandmother for years. LO #2 could be a first-class Passive-Aggressive petulant and I got whiffs of Passive-Aggressive behavior from LO #4 when I went straight at her.
However, I don’t know that any of my four LOs ever actually lied to me.
If you want to pull the Passive-Aggressive string, check out:
https://sharischreiber.com/whos-doing-your-dirty-work/
https://admin.umt.edu.pk/Media/Site/SSH/SubSites/cp/FileManager/Ebooks/DCPe-26.pdf – The section on Passive-Aggressive behavior starts on page 130.
Kantor’s book was not universally well received but I liked it.
If you really want to go deep, check out “paltering:”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2016/12/29/when-telling-the-truth-is-actually-dishonest/
It’s in between Lies of Commission and Lies of Omission.
Well done paltering is an art form unto itself.
Snowphoenix says
Proust just puts his observations out there without really judging one fact of the long history.
https://youtu.be/v1E0xsiYMr0?si=Mhxezkw6ZuzLJQCa — Can Lying ever be Kind?
https://youtu.be/RmnvtqEAayE?si=dP-W4uQF83_1IeyL — the Power of Lies to Transform Your Love Life.
For some people in my, privacy and secrecy seem to equal without differences. Human psychology is very, very complex — often thoughts contradicting, emotions changing, sentiments blurry… Do we need to reveal them all, truly being psychological naked at a cost of possibly hurting those we love and ourselves? Is it even possible to be completely “honest” while being kind?
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“My unconscious just punished me last night by giving me a true nightmare with LO directly involved — too embarrassing or fear to tell here. The unconscious does not lie and will, if one listens to and trust it, warn the consciousness of its intentions, schemes, possible fearful consequences…”
I think limerence can almost be like a fire one lights to keep oneself warm (emotionally). And, of course, there’s also the pleasure element due to dopamine release. Using fantasy to comfort oneself might be a perfectly valid survival strategy when one is young and lonely, and has few other options. However, once one becomes an adult, one needs to seek out other forms of comfort and connection.
The problem with the “fire” of limerence is that this pleasure/comfort is very expensive in biological terms. (Lows always follow the highs). Also, the “fire” i.e. pleasurable distraction of obsession, may burn down one’s “house” i.e. everything one has ever worked for. Alternatively, the “fire” may seem so real it might deter someone from ever working for anything…
Snowpheonix says
“I think limerence can almost be like a fire one lights to keep oneself warm (emotionally). And, of course, there’s also the pleasure element due to dopamine release. Using fantasy to comfort oneself might be a perfectly valid survival strategy when one is young and lonely, and has few other options. However, once one becomes an adult, one needs to seek out other forms of comfort and connection.”
Not limerence ALONE is like a fire, but imagination in general! There are also lonely or down time during one’s adulthood. That’s when limerence can sneak in easily, cptsd also makes it much easier . You’re right, limerence should never be a solution for one’s down time; however, a quite few limerents here are in serial limerence in their life without any knowledge or understanding of it.
“The problem with the “fire” of limerence is that this pleasure/comfort is very expensive in biological terms. (Lows always follow the highs). “
Dear, that’s where my mediation is fitting in nowadays — raise or neutralize lows of limerence or of other stuff. So I continue getting dopamine high from interacting with LO, but smothering the low when he’s absent. Dr L would raise his eyebrows to 🧐 my meditation is used now to help me “indulge” in this more “positive” limerence. 😜
Also, the “fire” i.e. pleasurable distraction of obsession, may burn down one’s “house” i.e. everything one has ever worked for. Alternatively, the “fire” may seem so real it might deter someone from ever working for anything…
These will hardly occur to a semi-Stoic and semi-Buddhist.
Limerent Emeritus says
Marcia,
“Yeah … not seeing a lot of Rhett in your posts. 🙂 Sorry.”
Nope, never was, never will be Rhett Butler but I do identify with his, “Maybe it’s because I’ve always had a weakness for lost causes, once they’re really lost.”
Have you ever seen the movie, “The Blue Max” with George Peppard playing Bruno Stachel. It’s one of my all time favorite movies. I identify with Bruno. His nemesis, Willi von Klugermann, says, “You know, there’s something of the cobra in you. I’ll have to watch you.”
My wife watched it with me once and asked why I identify so much with him. I told her that he had a chip on his shoulder when it came to the aristocracy. He didn’t want to be one of them, he wanted to prove that he was as good as they were. My wife asked why that was important to me. I told her it must be something in my Prussian peasant genetics.
In college, one of my friends said that I was “cold, calculating, mercenary and possessed low animal cunning.” It was one of the nicest things anyone ever said about me. One of my XOs thought that I’d make a great Weapons Officer because, “There’s just enough sneaky son-of-a-bitch in you that you could shove a Mk 48 (torpedo) up somebody’s a– and smile the whole time.”
Then, something changed and it all seemed to go away. Maybe I just grew out of it.
There’s who we are and who we think we’d like to be. I told LO #2 that I wanted to be Remington Steele. She said that I couldn’t pull off Remington Steele. She said that I could be “irresistibly cute.” I told her I really didn’t like that much. She said that there was nothing wrong with cute.
“I don’t know any guys right now who have a sense of rebellion.”
I used to. I got in so much trouble in the Navy for it. My CO told me that if I didn’t reign it in, one day my irreverence would come back to haunt me. The enlisted guys on the sub liked me. They said that I knew the words, but I didn’t believe them.
One night in May, 1982, it almost did. I got bored and decided to simulate an German U-boat in1940 and do night surface attacks on trawlers off the coast of Washington State. I’d have gotten away with it too if the Quartermaster hadn’t screwed up and let me get too close to one so I had to do a hard rudder to turn away and rolled to Skipper out of his bunk on to the deck. He was not amused.
“I need a younger, hipper, cooler, sexier Bernie Sanders … who’s out there striking with the UAW! 🙂”
You should move to the DC Metro region. You can’t go 50 feet in any direction without tripping over one of those. At least, they think they’re hipper, cooler, and sexier. If people used the turn signals on their cars as much as they virtue signal, we’d have a ton fewer traffic accidents out here.
Marcia says
LE,
“Have you ever seen the movie, “The Blue Max” with George Peppard playing Bruno Stachel.”
I haven’t seen it. I’ll have to watch it. I like old movies.
“Then, something changed and it all seemed to go away. Maybe I just grew out of it.”
You don’t think you still have a little bit of the sneak in you? 🙂
“She said that there was nothing wrong with cute.”
I’m with you. I don’t like “cute.” I was watching an episode of reality show “Love It or List It.” It’s revealed the couple met when he was her landlord. She describes him as her Prince Charming, is totally smitten. He says, when they first met, he thought she was “kind of cute.” Ugh! He just described his wife, his life partner, the woman he’s going to spend the rest of his life with, as “kind of cute.”
” I’d have gotten away with it too if the Quartermaster hadn’t screwed up and let me get too close to one so I had to do a hard rudder to turn away and rolled to Skipper out of his bunk on to the deck. He was not amused.”
So he fell out of his bed? That’s funny.
“You should move to the DC Metro region. You can’t go 50 feet in any direction without tripping over one of those. At least, they think they’re hipper, cooler, and sexier. ”
Sounds good to me. Just SOME sense of umph and FU to “the man”! Fight the power! 🙂
Limerent Emeritus says
Marcia,
I don’t know if I have any sneak left in me. It’s been so long since I’ve been around any really edgy people. I used to find them energizing but now they’re just draining.
I learned a long time ago that you don’t really have to be a SOB, people just need to think that you could be.
Kind of like Fonzi.
But, I don’t even need that anymore.
Speedwagon says
Using this Coffee House as the blog to post a current update.
I feel my LE has taken a new turn in a positive direction over the last 6 weeks or so. Prior to 6 weeks ago I was expending a lot of emotional energy trying to be very strict LC with my LO and it was causing me a lot of daily distress. Nisor challenged me to be a little more flexible and go with the natural relational flow when interacting with LO. So I did and it was better, but also these last 6 weeks have shown me that LO is just not that interesting of person relationally. We have a great superficial chemistry, and that got me by for 18 months, but as far as any deeper relational interactions go, she is fairly closed off and disinterested and I am growing bored with her. I am noticing her way to relate to me is always just to joke around. It’s so prevalent that when we had a little tension moment over a work matter the other day and I ended up apologizing for some misunderstandings in quite a sincere way and her response was still to just joke around and blow it off as nothing. That offended me a bit.
All that to say, LO is starting to exasperate me and I find myself less desirous of interacting with her. In fact, my only real LE hang up at this point seems to still be a hyper sexual attraction to her which I find to be an annoyance now more than anything. But interpersonally she is really is not my type.
I have now come to understand what Marcia says a lot. What’s the point of all this if LO is just providing crumbs and not providing any real depth of reciprocal relationship. All the flirty glances and smiles and vibes just seem superficial and childish now and I’m over it.
But, another new development which is interesting is that I have somewhat emotionally transferred my desire for deeper friendship with LO to another woman. Very naturally and organically I have become good friends with another coworker. We text often (few times a week), sometimes just to say hi and check in. She is 100% reciprocal in our friendship and she provides me with a level of relational satisfaction I don’t get from LO. I genuinely like this person and enjoy communicating with her. Her life is stable (my LOs is chaotic) and I respect her greatly. The nice thing is I don’t have any great romantic interest in her, though she is attractive, and I get no vibes from her that she has romantic interest in me. I still am diligent to keep any conversation, whether in person or thru text, appropriate without over sharing. She seems to be diligent with that as well. I also do not hide this person from my SO, I frequently tell SO of our interactions if they are interesting.
So though I am still limerent, my limerence has been much less distressing lately due to new feelings of distaste for LO and growing relationship with someone else. I am hoping that this is a path forward to eventual dissipation of the LE. It will still take a while I am sure but I like where I am at right now.
frederico says
That’s a very interesting account of how things eventually begin to fade, Speedwagon. I am happy for you.
Mila says
Hi Speedwagon,
very interesting especially because it proves that, as I suspected, NC isn‘t always the best solution, it‘s sometimes very revealing to see LO constantly.
I just want to give out a warning, not sure if it’s really necessary in your case, but…
Beware of transference on your new good woman friend. I say that because I transferred limerence from my last LO to one of my best friends (I wouldn’t have thought before that I could be limerent for him, just like you describe it with your friendship..)
As I said, maybe the warning is not at all necessary for you, I just wanted to mention it..
frederico says
Speedwagon’s articulate descriptions are very helpful i.m.h.o.
“very interesting especially because it proves that, as I suspected, NC isn‘t always the best solution” – Mila
I agree with you there, Mila. My current circumstances are so different to Speedwagon’s and yours (I am sometimes embarrassed by them) but, many years ago I similarly buried LEs with colleagues and “subordinates”.
NC is clearly the ideal, the sensible option, but limerence will still fade in a dignified way if you can be strong, aware and considerate to everyone who may be affected. This comes from the heart. It is possible, I feel sure.
Speedwagon says
@ Mila
It is very much at the forefront of my mind not to glimmer for my woman friend. Though I enjoy our interactions and conversation I am also very conscious of them. One of the things that helps is LO is still around to capture my attention. If LO was completely out of my life and I was NC it might be different.
Ultimately I would prefer NC with my LO but it’s not possible. But I’m glad I have other quality people like my woman friend to put emotional investment into. LO just is not worth it.
Mila says
Ok, it’s good that you are aware of the possibility of sudden glimmer and importance of someone until now non-glimmering.
I just remember not only transference from LO2 to my friend but also from LO1 to LO2 – I also compared the narcissistic tendencies and general behavior of LO1 unfavorably to the much warmer and more unselfish behavior of LO2 (towards me and generally) and was like „now this friend opened my eyes to how I could have warm and easy relationships with much worthier persons than LO1, don’t need this painful stuff and immature person“ and bam, there was limerence after a couple of months…
Nisor says
Hi Speedwagon,
You’re doing just fine!
“ your only hang up being the ‘hyper sexual attraction’to her, and even considering it to be an annoyance.”
It’s very frustrating, I guess, to have all that pent up energy without an outlet. I think you should do as poster “Lost in Space “ used to do, either take things on your hand, or get close to your SO. Thank goodness, you have one! Imagine those who don’t have an SO with all that stored energy! You can start by having date nights, remembering when you’re young, when you first got married, use your fantasy…
Yeah, and be careful with the new friend, you don’t transfer the limerence, for again you’ll be in the same wagon as before with lo. This limerence is treacherous, it shows up on the least remote places, like mine in a dream! Go figure! We’re just looking after your welfare.
Be strong but relaxed, it’s not the end of the world. Enjoy the beautiful autumn season, it’s beautiful! The autumn 🍂 leaves fall by my 🪟 window…
Song: AUTUMN LEAVES, Frank Sinatra. It was autumn when I walked away from my LO.
Sammy says
@Speedwagon.
“I have now come to understand what Marcia says a lot. What’s the point of all this if LO is just providing crumbs and not providing any real depth of reciprocal relationship. All the flirty glances and smiles and vibes just seem superficial and childish now and I’m over it.”
I think I am also coming round to accepting Marcia’s point of view. An ongoing infatuation with someone who will provide only crumbs is pointless. And it’s even worse if one voluntarily allows this person to live in one’s imagination forever!! 😛
Nisor says
Yes, Sammy, it’s like living rent free in someone’s mind. Time to evacuate! No ticket No shirt …
Mila says
Frederico,
It‘s what I feel to be the cleanest, mature and most thorough solution.
It‘s what I‘m trying at the moment.
With NC you never know if it would flare up if contact would be reinstated.
But I understand that NC is sometimes the only thing that helps because the first solution is sometimes just not feasible.
Don’t be absurd, there‘s nothing to be embarrassed about about your circumstances (is that right with the double „about“ I wonder?)
I also think that you are/were admirably in control of yourself and your LE.
frederico says
Fascinating, Mila, as are the dynamics which evolve from these posts.
Thank you for your final paragraph. It is kind and helpful.
Mila says
Frederico,
You know, what I like about your posts is that you always speak about your LO not as about an object (of limerence, of anger, desire etc) but with respect and as a person of his own will and dignity.
I really respect this attitude and want it for myself but I don’t always manage.
Adam says
Seeing her as a person was the start of the liberation of limerence for me. Realizing that she needed to move on with her life for the betterment of her, her daughters and her life made me realize how selfish trying to hold her there was.
This is also why NC continues. Believe me, I have weak points that after too much gin I have went as far as almost pushing the call button on my phone, but always pulling back.
For the most part, at least with most of the stories I have heard here at LwL, LO’s are innocent in being pulled into our limerence. And I am ashamed to say there were times in her last two weeks on the job that I tried to convince her to stay.
And you are right. Frederico’s interactions with his LO are many of the reasons and motivations I had to try and let go of her when I first started posting here. He was a great role model at putting his LO’s interests before his own. And that takes a great deal of courage, fortitude and sacrifice to do so.
Limerent Emeritus says
Adam,
“For the most part, at least with most of the stories I have heard here at LwL, LO’s are innocent in being pulled into our limerence.”
In many cases, that’s true.
However, with some LOs, at some point, they can go from unwitting participants to knowingly complicit participants. If they do, things can unravel quickly.
With LO #4, once I disclosed to her, I told her I was saying goodbye. She told me that I could come back if I got my head together. I thought I got my head together and went back. That was a mistake. One of many.
I tried to drift into NC but she came at me a few months later. When I disclosed, she said that she had no idea that I was attracted to her. Up to that point, she was an unwitting participant. After I disclosed to her and she came back, she was a complicit [I like that word!]. She knew that I was married from Day 1.
I went to war with her. We lasted about 3 months after that until she threw the flag.
Adam says
L.E.
I am fairly certain I do not have to worry about that happening to me. I truly think she is a good place in life and has no desire to reach back into the past by contact. The only way I’d ever see her is by happenstance. And she is enough miles away that I doubt that will ever happen. Which is good for my mental state.
Mila says
Today I’m struggling.
Even though I know it’s probably only my hormonal status (I know there are people of all ages involved in limerence, but I still feel that my hormonal up and downs during a cycle play a significant role)
and also a habit of turning to LE for comforting thoughts and good feelings, to distract me from other unpleasantness – even though I know it’s an illusion, it’s still hard to beat.
I started to listen to some music while cleaning, had to stop because the songs were too romantic. Started checking online stati (status?) had to slap my fingers… thank god my LO is as passive and reactive as ever.
I limited the contact somewhat in the last days which he must have realized, he made a feeble effort, but not much, and now he just mirrors my frequency of contact.
I think I am the one in control of the whole relationship. If I go up in intensity, he comes with me, and the opposite. Thank god for that, if he would be more active or pursuing, it would be more difficult for me to curb the whole thing.
Still, today I’m a bit mournful about him, us etc.
Adam says
Im not sober. Im watching The 7th Voyague of Sinbad while my wife sleeps from a migraine. I sit on the floor and lay my head her lap while I watch my movie. I look at her closed eyes and feel I am the worst. Ah what the hell more gin. Why can’t I get her off my mind? On to “The Hard Goodbye” on Sin City. Marv … “It really gets me up when guys rough up dames”
Mila says
Adam,
She‘s for sure not awake thinking about you. But we are! Come on, it’s not worth it, put the gin away and go to sleep too!
Adam says
Can a man really love two women?
Marcia says
Adam,
Personally, I think yes. I think you can love two people at the same time.
I think you can love one and be “in love” with another (by “in love” I mean that early, heady, can’t-wait-to-see-you, obsessive feeling).
But I don’t think you can be “in love” with two people at the same time. Mother Nature won’t allow it. She wants you to be “in love ” with one … to procreate and stick around long enough for the baby to be born. Which is why that feeling lasts one to two years.
Mila says
I think, for a limited time one might have strong feelings for two persons. But to really live out love for two persons isn’t feasible, isn’t possible. So there will be problems, hard feelings, conflicts, and in the end you can only live out one love, and the other will be altered by all that and will vanish over time.
Maybe there will be a residue of it, and maybe one could call it still love, but if this residue has a disturbing influence on the first love then it might mean that you didn’t live out any of these two lives properly. Which would be sad.
Don’t know if it makes sense what I wrote, I‘m pretty tired today
Mila says
*either of these two loves
Marcia says
Mila,
“But to really live out love for two persons isn’t feasible, isn’t possible. So there will be problems, hard feelings, conflicts, and in the end you can only live out one love, and the other will be altered by all that and will vanish over time.”
Personally, I don’t see how someone can do two relationships at once, but I do think it’s entirely possible to be with someone long-term and become really taken with someone else. This site is full of stories like that.
I suppose it might be possible if the second person was ok with being part-time (maybe they were with somebody themselves) and the first, primay partner was on board with everything. I dont’ see how one could give equally to two people. We only have so much time and emotional bandwith.
Mila says
Marcia,
That’s actually what I meant, maybe not well expressed.
Of course it‘s possible to be in love with one and fall in love with another, happened to me, kind of, but it was never a sustainable thing.
Furthermore (is that a word?) I think that it‘s very rare to find two people that are content to „share“ in the way you describe (one main and one side relationship) and even if three people are in the beginning on board with that, something/somebody will change with time and not be content with it, it‘s such a volatile arrangement.
Adam says
I don’t want that with her. She is happy with him. He cares for her and her daughters. He’s a good man. I love Momma. I don’t want to leave her for anyone else. Why do I have to feel guilty that I love her still? Am I a bad person?
Marcia says
Mila,
“even if three people are in the beginning on board with that, something/somebody will change with time and not be content with it, it‘s such a volatile arrangement.”
I suspect it’s more like a foursome or more. The secondary person also has a primary or is dating others.
There could be a problem if the secondary partner was limerent and cut off all their other options and wanted to be more than the secondary at some point. On the flip side, the secondary (the limerent) could learn enough about the LO and think … no, thanks! Anything is possible.
I can’t image being married, though, and knowing my husband was out with some other woman. And I may be the primary but she’s something I can never be again: new. That would be rough.
Mila says
Marcia,
I also can only speculate about this way of living and loving, personally I couldn’t manage such a feat of balancing relationships, feelings, calendars, and although after my LEs I would understand my SO much better if he would have similar experiences,
I still cannot imagine sharing him in the described way.
Mila says
Adam,
of course you are not a bad person. You are just human, like all of us.
Our lives are short, let’s not waste it on being torn between two people, eaten up by feelings that will lead nowhere.
Marcia says
Mila,
“I still cannot imagine sharing him in the described way.”
I couldn’t imagine it, either, but I don’t want to negate it because it does seem to work for some people. And what do they call it? Ethnical non-monogamy. It’s better than having a secretive PA or EA or dubious flirtation, etc.
Mila says
Hi Marcia,
so it works for some people? I never met a couple where it worked, only where there were problems sooner or later.
But it‘s good to hear that it can work.
Why „ethnical“, by the way?
Marcia says
Mila,
“so it works for some people? I never met a couple where it worked, only where there were problems sooner or later.
But it‘s good to hear that it can work.”
I don’t personally know anyone but I am intermittently on another site and the guy who runs it is married and has an open relationship.
“Why „ethnical“, by the way?”
But you’re honest about it with each other. You’re not sneaking around. You’re not lying by omission, you’re not texting someone up a strom who you know you should stay away from.
And I can respect that even if the lifestyle isn’t for me.
Mila says
Marcia,
Ah, you mean ethical 🙂
I don’t mean to be word-picking , I really thought you mean ethnical like in some countries it‘s tradition or something, what do I know..
Adam says
Yes. I am in love with my wife. That will never change I don’t think. Loving and being in love are separate to me. But I’ve never felt love for a woman that wasn’t family or my wife’s family. So it feels guilty.
On the subject of open relationships …. In the past, more than once, Momma and I have discussed trying a threesome. I never could stick the landing. The thought of another woman being with my wife or even worse being better at it than I am filled me with all kinds of insecurities. We haven’t talked about it in probably 10 plus years and I still think I’d feel the same now if it came up.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
Like Mila, I am having trouble following your line of thought, particularly in relation to stoicism. To me, stoicism means silently enduring pain/keeping one’s troubles to oneself/putting on a brave face. To me, stoicism doesn’t sit well with disclosure. To me, a true stoic would never disclose. To me, a true stoic wouldn’t need to disclose. To me, disclosure is the opposite of stoicism.
Perhaps, to you, stoicism means that you could cope well with any response from your LO, even a negative response? I’m not doubting your ability to respond in a graceful way to rejection, either implicit or explicit. What I’m concerned about is how your “Cult of Stoicism” may blind you to the impact of disclosure on others in your social circle or others in your LO’s social circle. As Mila suggests, not everybody subscribes to stoicism as a philosophy. Not everybody is kind and polite. Not everybody reacts in a mature way to revelations of romantic feelings.
In one of your posts, you write the following two paragraphs:
“The whole point of the disclosure is to explain to (“educate) him that Limerence is a mental disease, in which it’s not limerent’s choice to fantasize and idealize LO in head; during limerence, all our LOs is one form or another of a phantom in our head, isn’t it, including this moment?
LO is not a Stoic, as far as I could detect, but he’s getting better to take my LCs/NCs. Based on Tunnov or Dr L, it’s inaccurate to think that LO is responsible for our LE. Disclose will tell him that it’s NOT his responsibility for our suffering or whatever going on in our mind, LO IS just a BYSTANDER, who incidentally triggered us into our limerence that is strongly related to stresser in our life. LE provokes all of us to examine possible causes of such deep stresser.”
To my mind, these two paragraphs contradict each other. On the one hand, in reality, any attempt to “educate” LO about “mental disease” of limerence is an attempt to shift responsibility onto him. The limerent in this scenario subconsciously desires LO to “end the pain of uncertainty”. On the other hand, you’re saying that you’ve learned that limerence and/or suffering caused by limerence isn’t LO’s responsibility. If limerent anguish isn’t the responsibility of LO, why on earth would you – especially as a self-proclaimed stoic – even need to inform him of that fact? Subconsciously, what the limerent is saying to LO in this second scenario is: “Please give me the ecstasy of renewed hope.”
See, these two impulses you have are mutually exclusive – to disclose to your LO and to absolve him of all blame. If he’s genuinely blameless, why disclose at all? Put in the bluntest possible terms, your suffering isn’t his problem… And if you’re not suffering, why the super-strong urge to disclose?
I think what Marcia wrote in response to you at some point is absolutely beautiful, and I wish I wrote it myself:
“I used to think that disclosing would release the other person, that he’d finally be able to reveal how he felt. As if he had been bottled up, and the disclosure would open the floodgates. (I had watched too many movies. :)) But I don’t think it works that way. If things are going well, one doesn’t need a big discussion. The whole thing kind of merges together naturally. I’m really of the mindset now that the more one has to do to get things going … that’s a bad sign. Whereas I think I used to see uncertainty as a challenge. A discovery to figure out.
And feelings aren’t always a call to action. Sometimes all we can do is feel them — hopefully enjoy feeling them (not the case with limerence, of course; more so with a crush). And then file them away, if possible. If not, work on processing them, but that’s on one’s own if one or both parties are not available.”
Lots of people aren’t in touch with their emotions, and all the disclosures in the world aren’t going to put them in touch with their emotions, or make them magically develop emotional intelligence or a conscience overnight. The complex emotions of limerence are something limerents very much have to work through on their own – one day at a time. Disclosure doesn’t always relieve the limerent of profound stress, nor free the LO from some real and/or imagined “repression”.
Finally, I’d like to answer some interesting questions you raise:
“While being romantically rejected would make one feel so socially embarrassed, personally awkward, deeply wounded, or even patronized, laughed at, or belittled?
Affection or limerence is Eros based, not harm intended; the glimmer (first sight) mostly comes from pair-bonding instinct unable to be cultivated, having little to do with one’s capability or personality. So when when expressing or proposing one’s Eros, there are always two basic answers: Yes or No, 50-50 chance. Then while a Yes often gets celebrated or over rated; a No becomes a failure, almost amounting a disgrace, followed by a chain of negative emotions? Where does a dose of Stoicism go?”
To be accepted or rejected in human relationships (friendship included) is not a battle, isn’t it? Then why so many emotions of personal “victory” or “defeat” are related to romance quest? Is this a part of Romanticism, a social influence (those songs about Love is a battle ground…)? A natural psychological phenomenon? Or what?”
The music industry got it wrong. Love isn’t a battlefield. Limerence is a battlefield. But limerence is only a battlefield if two people are in limerence for each other, and consciously playing mind games with each other – which is actually a pretty ugly situation, if you think about it too much. Love isn’t a game. Limerence is a game. In love, there are no winners and losers, no victories and no defeats. In limerence, there are winners and losers because it’s a game that can be either won or lost, depending on the supposed skill of the players.
The problem with Romanticism is Romanticism mistakes limerence for love. Limerence can eventually lead to love, but it’s not love from the get-go. It’s lust and jealousy and possessiveness and all those other slightly questionable things. (Questionable because they are in conflict with Agape. the Christian ideal of love).
I don’t think romantic rejection automatically leads to feelings of worthlessness. Not in everyone anyway. I think anything Eros-related is just highly-embarrassing to most people. And maybe that embarrassment is natural, in-born. And maybe that embarrassment is cultural, learnt. This is what I mean when I said my LO was a window for me into a whole way of life – the Australian way of life. He made me realise that I was out of step with the culture I live in. He made me see that my thoughts/feelings/beliefs/values were not shared by other people, and perhaps I was wrong about many, many things. He inspired me to “pull my head in”.
In essence, what I’ve learned is that most human beings are extremely sensitive, including the males, especially the males. Most people are quite squeamish about sex, and laughter more often than not is a cover for embarrassment. Most people are very insecure/socially anxious and don’t want to stand out in a crowd. Most people want to fit in with their friendship groups and be accepted. Very few people have the strength of character to be “lone wolves” or to go it alone. And even people like me, who do have the strength of character to “go it alone” may one day regret being so individualistic and idealistic.
Limerence doesn’t last, in other words. Limerence is all in the mind. So anything one hypothetically “wins” in limerence, e.g. an amazing feeling of euphoria, also doesn’t last. What goes up must come down. At some point, even the most starry-eyed of Romantics must say goodbye to passion and hello to reality.
Being rejected romantically doesn’t necessarily make one feel awkward (especially in one is in an altered state like limerence, and can’t think straight). Do you really want to know what makes people feel awkward? Playing the rejector role. Having to reject people one isn’t interested in. Even having to have that conversation in the first place. A true stoic, I believe, would not put the LO into a position where the LO would have to do the awkward business of rejecting. 😉
CamillaGeorge says
Delurking to say, Sammy, that is absolutely beautifully written and stated.
Sammy says
@CamillaGeorge.
“Delurking to say, Sammy, that is absolutely beautifully written and stated.”
Thank you! ☺
Mila says
„See, these two impulses you have are mutually exclusive – to disclose to your LO and to absolve him of all blame. If he’s genuinely blameless, why disclose at all? Put in the bluntest possible terms, your suffering isn’t his problem… And if you’re not suffering, why the super-strong urge to disclose?“
Exactly. You put it all in words I never could find.
Snow, I still think you are not completely honest to yourself.
You say one time that you only want to answer his „question“, as if it would be only for his benefit, the other time you only want to practice your stoicism, the next time you want to secure his friendship.
Which is it?
If he really would want an answer to his question (as I understand, this was months ago), he would have asked again. He doesn’t need an answer.
If you want his friendship, there are expectations and it’s not stoic.
I mean, just do what you want to do, but try to be really honest to yourself.
Snowpheonix says
@Mila,
“these two impulses you have are mutually exclusive – to disclose to your LO and to absolve him of all blame. If he’s genuinely blameless, why disclose at all?”
I disagree with Sammy’s view on the exclusivities. As Marcia said once, I will not give the power of controlling, improving my own life to another person, LO or not. Actually NO one else is able even if they are willing to help out. Limerence has to be and can only be ended by our limerent self.
1. “You say one time that you only want to answer his „question“, as if it would be only for his benefit”
Yes, primarily for his “benefit”, as well as mine — be truthful and clear to what happened. Before I was mystified myself so unable to explain. I very much dislike the current “fake”, casual, friendlier colleague-friendship, which feels like pulling me back to Square 1 again, fanning my residual limerence.
As you all points out, LO could be freaked out if I disclose and go NC with me, although he already knew what I was doing all these 6 years (limerent for his “parental” role, Eros was always denied), as I disclosed twice to him before.
2. “the other time you only want to practice your stoicism, If you want his friendship, there are expectations and it’s not stoic.“
Being Stoic does NOT mean one has NO specific goals, on the contrary they often pursue tough ambitions. Only that one relies on one’s own best efforts, NOT others’ (re)actions. One DOES not worry about what’s happening in others’ head, expecting or pining for their positive (re)actions — a primary limerence trait. Assuming the worst while still making one’s best efforts is a Stoic practice. Check those Stoic daily mantras (I just listed two, there are more) in last post to Sammy.
3. “the next time you want to secure his friendship.”
My initial goals were quite simple (#1+#2), but you guys keep insisting I have other desires, so I said truthfully I wish an authentic, substantial friendship with LO after LE, which should NOT and can NOT be attempted now — it requires me to be 100% out of limerence. It’s a catch-22 situation.
#1 & #3 goals are somewhat related.
“Which is it?”
To make such a huge, “risky” step, I’m not going to have just one goal. “One stone for 3 birds” is my aim. A Stoic will prepare and expect to get NO bird and move on with his/her life! Marcia would suggest to stay where I am now, where everything seems to be hazy again.
“If he really would want an answer to his question (as I understand, this was months ago), he would have asked again. He doesn’t need an answer.”
Not every LO is action-based, particularly a Sensor who just wants to hold on others “liking” for good, even superficial. Moreover, a further inquiring would implicate he wants to pursue a PA (I already turned it down), which he would never initiate (he’s very protective his social mask). So he repeatedly claimed, he wanted just a “casual friendship” (then indirectly offered more), which I do not care for.
DrL says that sometimes disclosure could end limerence, since there would be no ambiguities left. In my case, the answer from a disclosure could only be, would only be, and should only be NO — some negative response.
“I mean, just do what you want to do, but try to be really honest to yourself.”
As a semi-Stoic, I cannot just do what I WANT to do, that may break my “shield” hurting myself.
I’ll weigh carefully pros and cons of a disclosure. Thank you for your always thoughtful and caring responses.
Bewitched says
Hi @Snowphoenix
May i ask what it is that you want to disclose? I think you are referring to what you *used* to feel for this man?
Hmmm – i have to agree with the others in questioning whether it is worth it.
Let me give some other reasons than have already been said by the others (said with love 🤗).
According to your reply above, he doesnt seems like a very honourable guy – he implied that he wishes for a PA with you despite having a SO. This is arguably more forgiveable if there are strong feelings, but what you described in some of your posts seem to me to paint a (superficial?) attachment to you, e.g. you have spoken about his desire to be generally liked (sensor). Plus, arguably some of his best traits such as not getting upset when you go NC, not reacting to your deep discussions, and so on, also point towards a person who is a bit superficial (and not worthy of you).
I just think that you could find more a more worthy friend?
Snowpheonix says
@Biwtiched,
Thank you for taking time to give me your sincere advice. Looks like we’re going to rip LO’s personality a little more today…
“May i ask what it is that you want to disclose? I think you are referring to what you *used* to feel for this man?”
At the earlier stage, I limerent for LO as an idealized surrogate parent; later on as the Phantom of LO — an idealized lover + muse. Nowadays, I deal with LO mostly as a person in reality, no longer the surrogate parent or the Phantom.
I want to disclose to him that I have had limerence, a chemical imbalance in the past 6 years, triggered by my larger mental condition — cptsd, which he knows well and has been supportive of my self-healing process: e.g. I asked him in 2021, try not to trigger my “abandonment melange”, one of which led to my biggest panic attack. He tried to be careful, but still could not help with some small “normal” deeds, which were perceived and amplified as “abandonment” in cptsd-lens’ eyes. Nowadays, I am training myself by intentionally exposing to those triggers, so as to get rid of them eventually on my own.
I have already disclosed a half of my LE truth that I was spiritually “treating” him as an idealized parent figure. He did not object the rosy-colored role but pointed out once, “that’s not even me….” I think most of us like the feeling of “being needed,” so he did NOT laugh at my silly fantasy, or looked down upon bizarre missives, or run away. But this disclosure was really a coverup of Eros in my LE, about which I had no idea back then.
“According to your reply above, he doesn’t seems like a very honourable guy – he implied that he wishes for a PA with you despite having a SO. “
He confessed to me (w/o being asked) that he and his SO both had several extramarital “friendships”, respectively in the past. (denied any PA on his side). I respect his honest sharing with me on this information. Such a “friendship” to me is healthy and should be accepted and even encouraged more (as Marcia stated). Each partner needs to have their independent friends circle to colorfully diverse their committed relationship/marriage.
“This is arguably more forgivable if there are strong feelings”
If he wants a PA with his strong feelings, despite SO, then my vanity would be highly flattered and fulfilled — someone is willing to break their vows to love me and honor my womanhood, I’ll jump into bed with him! (Feel free to judge me anyway you wish.) The problem lies that I didn’t sense that he had enough romantic feeling for me when the offer was hinted a couple of times. A true Limerent desires equal intensity in LO’s emotional reciprocation, PA is rarely the primary goal. Without knowing what limerence was back then, I intuitively refused, which even confused myself a little bit, because sometimes I fantasized PA with the Phantom in my daydreams.
“what you described in some of your posts seem to me to paint a (superficial?) attachment to you, e.g. you have spoken about his desire to be generally liked (sensor).”
The word “superficial” might be a right choice here, but again it could due to his claimed “faithfulness” to his SO. He told me that he used to share his deep thoughts and sentiments with women friends but stopped once he married SO; nowadays, he only shares them with SO. So “superficiality” is compelled by the barrier in this case. But in general, I feel he’s more superficial and genial than me; he does not like intensity of any kind.
LO frankly told me twice that he likes “to be liked” (like many insecure people do! ) I almost “attacked” this trait in my April “closure” meeting with him — “How can anyone LIKES to be LIKED by EVERYbody! no discrimination?” Where did this insecurity come from, considering how attractive and achieved he is!? (Well, Trump is the most insecure, ex- president in the whole world!) I suspected he had some kind of childhood “dramas” because he also honestly confessed that he easily gets self-defensive (His SO has often complained), which I could sense sometimes. So these two are his self-acknowledged flaws.
“Plus, arguably some of his best traits such as not getting upset when you go NC,”
That trait resembles what my father had — always forgave even his “enemy” who indirectly sent him to a harsh labor camp… I might have furiously attacked back if I were in LO position, considering how harsh my in-person NCs were. But somehow he managed a sincere smile at me, even in the middle of my angry NCs. Meanwhile, I also detected a bit fear and sadness in his eyes, and felt terrible. I could blow my head off like my Granny, but could NOT stand seeing anyone else getting hurt or suffering due to my acts, rightful or erroneous. As a cptsd sufferer, I have plenty of first-hand experiences of how terribly insecurity or fear hurts one within.
“not reacting to your deep discussions, and so on, also point towards a person who is a bit superficial (and not worthy of you).”
Again, due to SO, he cannot react or respond my deep missives. However, he always encouraged me to write wherever I felt like venting, because he knew about my cptsd pains and all my childhood traumas. Strangely, despite my suspicions about his personality traits, I felt so safe and shameless to reveal anything — some facts had never been told to another soul, walking or dead! He never judged them, or told anyone else, including SO. I also knew, and he acknowledged as well, that he did not read all of my ramblings, but that’s okay. The key point was that I felt at ease to vent whenever needed and liberated afterwards. I did not feel this way with any of my previous LOs.
“I just think that you could find more a more worthy friend?”
How “worthy” is defined? By whom? By my logical thinking or my intuition? I still choose to follow the latter, after thorough reasoning, because the unconscious (fed by fresh conciousnes as well) sometimes KNOWS better than my conscious mind during waking hours. In the past, each time I did not listen to my intuition, a big or small mistake was made unfortunately, some so regrettable…. 😰
I’ve gradually learned not to compare people with each other, everyone is truly unique, just look at our LwL community! Everyone has strengths and merits, vulnerabilities and flaws. I try not to expect or want others to adopt my limited world views and moral preferences, but take people as whoever they are and see if I can befriend with them. The problem in limerence is that limerent is gravitated to LO based on their illogical, instinctual GLIMMER, they just could not help it even if LO is indeed a bad egg! Look at Butler with Scarlett O’Hara in “Gown with Wind”! Poor the limerent, Butler! But we love this character for his helpless limerence passion for extremely selfish Scarlett!
You read my story about my middle—school friend who almost muddied his wife? Should I reprimand his ideation of a crime after his courageous, honest confession about his psychological pains and irrational mind of a moment? Should I walk away after his confession?
In my case, LO has definitely not committed any “crimes” yet (having suspected PA with his pet LO is not considered legal one). So what if I just could not help still limerent for the unavailable LO, still want to please him without expecting anything in return (he really cannot return anything I desire)? What do I LOSE by saying something like “I’ve been limerent for you with Eros secretly flying in my chest?” Do I lose face and become the biggest fool in the whole world? If I don’t think so or suffer from my “altruistic” act, can anyone or the whole world make me feel so?
Other reasons why I am thinking about disclosure to LO are listed in the post to Sammy. So I won’t repeat them here again.
To build and maintain an authentic, substantial friendship with a “worthy” LO (or anyone else) is really, really challenging, because one risks to lose what one presently has — a fake, shallow friendship. But without testing out LO’s worthiness, without the courage to be authentic to oneself and one’s possible “foe” LO, how such a fulfilling friendship could ever be tried and built and hopefully last enterally? (Gosh, I’m sounding like an idiotic Romantics! 😁)
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy,
“I enjoy discussing/exploring ideas with you, too. And if any of the things I say come off as “blunt” or “too negative”, that should never be taken as a feeling of malice or animus toward you as a person.”
I am relying on your bluntness to check my muddled limerence brain, so never hesitate to fire away. No “malice or animus towards me as a person” have been taken here, you’re more “sissy” than me. 😁
“and limerence certainly does lend itself to the greatest variety of moods. (I should know).”
This makes me ponder: in some sense, do I prefer this mood-fluctuating limerence or unrequited love than that flat “indifference and boredom” Nietzsche talks about? Why do I prefer the former, even I get easily tired from “burning” in it? I think It’s surges and flows of energy (QI) that makes me more alive. 💃🏻
“You raise a very interesting point. Can human beings still be human beings in isolation? If a given human being has no one to reflect thoughts/feelings back at them, doesn’t that human being lose or forfeit a little bit of their humanity? It seems to me that human beings can’t really exist (or thrive) in complete isolation.
Modern human beings can survive as an urban/suburban helmet, but they lose their identity or humanity since there is no relational reference or interactions with others. 🫥
“Without this courageously humbling confession, how one is going to befriend with anyone? This is where my confusion lies.
“Might one limit one’s friendship circle to people who don’t glimmer? Then friendship, in theory, should be a very straightforward matter…
Human mind rarely follows a “straightforward” textbook friendship, which are also quite different in the East and West. I have a lot of male friends without glimmer; and I feel sad if I cannot be friend with men at whomI have glimmered before — it’s ridiculous and absurd, and even inhuman! 😡 Just because I desired them with Eros or the relationship did not work out due to social or cultural barriers, then I cannot even be friends with them after LE is over? What logic is that?
“Spirit, Snowphoenix is in limerence with the Spirit, Sammy, who is an insecure Sensor LO, but the reality is not in favor of the former — the latter can only love men not women…”
“First of all, I’m an Intuitive (INTJ) and not a Sensor! “
I’m just making up a scenario here, which means Sammy over cares about others’ liking or seek it out (sub)consciously. ❣️
“Some straight women do fall in love with gay men. In theory, the “couple” should be able to talk through any misunderstandings, and remain friends. If one party is the wrong sexual orientation, then it’s less of a hit to one’s pride if they express disinterest in a relationship. Rejection is just that tiny bit easier to forgive, depending on the parties involved.”
In this scenario, Snowphoenix does not need a serious “talk” with Sammy, she knows he’s unchangeable gay. She could just go to him and say something like, “I just want to let you I have had a crush for you, and know it’s impossible to have a romance with you. But I’d still like to remain as your good friend, if you also wish.” That’s it!! If she does NOT expect and ask an impossible romantic relationship in return, then where does acceptance or rejection lie? Why every emotional expression has to involve getting or asking for something back?? I do not quite understand this type of Western(?) thinking, duo to my COO or personality? 🙃
So I used this scenario to compare the parallel impossibility with that of my “dead end” case.
“The Pandora’s box is perhaps social embarrassment.”
Why does an expression of affection, or Eros, become “social embarrassment”? This was what my earlier response asked — its origin to Romanism? cultural condition? Western psychology? In East, we just think it’s a not meant to be— fatalism, a bad luck, having nothing to do with the culture or social environment.
“I’m all for generosity.”
In this scenario, she primarily wants to give, without asking a PA or EA in return, isn’t it a real genrosity? She does ask for an authentic friendship. So now she is not qualified anymore, just because she had a crash and confessed?
“However, I think one always needs to be super-mindful of the potential feelings of spouses, especially spouses of LOs. It shocks me how people in limerence, commenting on LwL, seem never to think about the feelings of LO’s spouse.” “Why do we pretend the feelings of spouses don’t matter? Really, the feelings of spouses should be of primary importance. “
To strictly speaking, SO is LO or limerent’s responsibility, respectively. Another person is unable to manage or control anyone else’s emotional or mental (re)actions, while of course, one need to concern a great deal not to cause more “harms”. I agree when in limerence, limerent is only wrapped up in his or her own intense emotions, even the realistic LO is excluded — just a fuse, let alone any party’s SO.
While out of limerence, limerent and LO can still have an authentic friendship while keeping the boundary, there is no “harm” to SO.
“In a nutshell, ALL limerents change their own behaviour around LO in order to impress LO. This “trying so hard to impress LO” is what I mean by people donning masks/embracing inauthenticity, etc.”
Again you’re focusing on only dark sides of LE; you did not include those inspired limerents throughout history who have achieved some meaningful goals not only to impress their own LO but also benefited the world with arts, books, music, architecture, sculpture, DrL’s PhD, etc. Inauthenticity might mean something positive beyond what limerents thought they are capable of. Limerence draws out their previously unknown potentials and undiscovered creative abilities.
Some of the realistic LO’s behaviors made me suffer, there is no denial of it; however, the Phantom of LO (my own creation) has made me paying more attention to mental and physical health, researching in psychological, philosophical spiritual fields, exploring other liberal arts, writing out my own proses, lyrics, reflections, and aphorism. Why can’t you look at two sides of every COIN in life??
“During limerence, one isn’t just being one’s usual boring self. One may even “don a mask of friendship” when around LO, but it’s false friendship because the limerent wants more than friendship. “
That’s exactly why I do not wish to continue the current “false friendship” — either none, or an authentic one, in which I can’t hide my limerent feelings anymore. LO already knows a half of my limerence — the perception of him as a surrogate parent, it was disclosed in person twice in the past two years. After 6 LCs/NCs, we still interact very friendly and respectfully (my resentments are all gone). If I were Marcia, I’d just maintain what I have now, but it’s NOT authentic.
“If the LO arguably “betrays” the limerent through flirty/seductive behaviour that ultimately proves insincere, the limerent ALSO “betrays” the LO by feigning friendship for someone that they, the limerent, don’t view as a friend. The “betrayal”, in other words, is mutual. Both LO and limerent are acting in bad faith toward each other. “
Well said! That’s why I think a disclosure would end such continuation of “Betrayal”. Actions speak louder than words, I know what’s there and what’s missing in our very limited interactions, and I just dislike its superficiation.
”I don’t want to drive you deeper into limerence. I want you to make whatever decision lies truly in your own best interests, hopefully taking the feelings of other people into account. “
I totally trust your benevolent intention; otherwise, no one would take so much time and energy to care for and discuss about my tricky situation with me. I’m so deeply grateful! 🌹
“Why is it limerents thrives on opposition, I wonder?”
It’s not just limerent’s nature, but any rebels or people with strong masculinity.
“However, I also think there’s such a thing as “too much creativity”. I.e. at some point, every artist has to finish/abandon a given creative work and move on to the next. “
I don’t have any finished product yet, after just found out what limerence is for barely 3 months.
“Limerence makes abandoning a given creative work hard, because one can become addicted to constant revising as one believes one is gaining new insights into LO, etc. Both artists and limerents struggle to “wrap things up”, let things come to a natural conclusion, stop tinkering away, etc.”
I wish I’ll reach to that stage soon. That’s why I need more space in my head for some substantial creativities, not lingering in this inauthentic friendship “limbo”.
****
“In regard to your conversation with Marcia, just a very kind and gentle reminder: you might be underestimating how hugely important strict observance of social customs are to OTHER PEOPLE in your life, even if these social customs don’t mean much to you right now. “
I have few “other people” in my life, still much of a content lone-wolf. Simple and easy but sometimes lonely. Books and creativities keep me busy. I prefer not to deal with others’ “important observance. “
“And maybe this is the good that came out of limerence for me i.e. show greater consideration toward others? Life is a group effort, etc. “
As a semi-Buddhist, I agree with you. But I found very hard to deal with any group mentality. A functioning society is a group effort, not necessarily an individual’s life. I show a great consideration for others by not to get into others’ lives.
“Basically, if other people in your life get the idea – rightly or wrongly – that you’re not playing by the exact same rules as them, no matter how unfair the rules, they will become very upset and try to exclude you, the free-spirited person, from further group activities. “
I have excluded myself first before they even tried to get me into any group activities; I’m good on one-to-one/two/three basis or by myself. At work, I obey all professional rules.
“When one is out of limerence, one might regret the loss of all those friends. Most of them probably aren’t as small-minded as they appear. “
I lost some friends after LE #1, #2, but not further. I did not break social or moral codes. Some those lost friends came back to me later and sort of apologized.
***
“To me, stoicism means silently enduring pain/keeping one’s troubles to oneself/putting on a brave face.”
It also means to bravely be authentic to oneself and others, showing one’s truths with respect or acceptance to others’ and the world’s disagreeable truths; It means to assume the worst in all matters, and then develop coping strategies (shields) so as not to get hurt when the worst outcomes arrive; it means not to expect anything positive while keep doing one’s best; it means to be more pessimistic about anything external but not being despair.
There is a daily Stoic mantra:
[Today I might feel disappointed, lonely, depressed, angry, empty, jealousy, anxious, fearful, meaningless, insecure and panic. They are due to my emotional flashbacks. They may come but WILL always pass. ]
[The people I deal with today will be narcissistic, meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, deceitful, jealous, and surly. ]
To me, stoicism doesn’t sit well with disclosure. To me, a true stoic would never disclose. To me, a true stoic wouldn’t need to disclose. To me, disclosure is the opposite of stoicism.”
Totally disagree with you here. I imagine this disclosure would make a worst of my limerence, but I need to meet this worst at the cost of “losing my face.” If I survive it okay, I can possibly get over with the current LE, a large part of cptsd, and prevent a future LE.
My disclosure would be to answer a question raised by LO back during my “closure” in April; my disclosure would include a good wish, not a demand, for an authentic, substantial friendship; my disclosure would mean a “gift” without asking anything in return. Of course, as I told Mila and MJ, I’d ask first whether he still wants to hear the answer; if not, forget about the whole plan.
“Perhaps, to you, stoicism means that you could cope well with any response from your LO, even a negative response? I’m not doubting your ability to respond in a graceful way to rejection, either implicit or explicit. “
Stoicism means always to expect and deal with negatives in life. I’ve received LO’s direct and indirect rejections repeatedly, for EA and PA as he perceived as my aim. Then while offered PA, I repeatedly rejected him indirectly. So he got confused later more than me. We haven’t dealt with possible, authentic friendship, because I’m not sure if he’s capable of one after learning about my LE. So my Stoic practice would be facing and enduring its impossibility or impracticality — NO friendship of any kind after disclosure.
“What I’m concerned about is how your “Cult of Stoicism” may blind you to the impact of disclosure on others in your social circle or others in your LO’s social circle.”
As far as I know, such scenario would not occur, but still 5% possible; neither of us would tell anyone else in our circle, respectively.
“As Mila suggests, not everybody subscribes to stoicism as a philosophy. Not everybody is kind and polite. Not everybody reacts in a mature way to revelations of romantic feelings.”
Why? Why “civilized” people (you guys mean LO or others?) would hold hostility against someone else’s romantic feelings, which would not even flourish?” If it does happen, look at aforementioned Stoic mantras.
“To my mind, these two paragraphs contradict each other.”
On the one hand, in reality, any attempt to “educate” LO about “mental disease” of limerence is an attempt to shift responsibility onto him. “
TOTALLY DISAGREE! Admitting limerence is our own addiction, just to a person but not ordinary substance, is NOT shifting responsibility to LO. Cocaine is not a problem, if one does not touch it. A bag of potato chip is innocent of one’s obesity, if one does not indulge a bag every night.
“The limerent in this scenario subconsciously desires LO to “end the pain of uncertainty”. On the other hand, you’re saying that you’ve learned that limerence and/or suffering caused by limerence isn’t LO’s responsibility. “
Again, I’m not desiring LO to deal with my limerence at all, NO LO is capable because LE is a manifestation of and triggered by limerents’ other profound issues!! I have a little pain of uncertainty or of other kinds nowadays, but dislike the current inauthentic, superficial “friendship” with LO.
It seems some limerents assume that I experience the same amount of pains as they did or still do, without counting a fact that my limerence was not that bad for the first 4 years, due to my limited expectations from the day ONE. As a semi-Buddhist, I tend to count “blessings” I already have in my life; while majority people focus on what they do NOT have and some reckless pursue what is missing as if it is a necessity. Is LO a necessity for us to own?
“If limerent anguish isn’t the responsibility of LO, why on earth would you – especially as a self-proclaimed stoic – even need to inform him of that fact? “
Making a mystification clear for the sake of knowledge. Maybe pleasing LO as well since he’s an insecure Sensor— I’m that much generous!
“Subconsciously, what the limerent is saying to LO in this second scenario is: “Please give me the ecstasy of renewed hope.””
To beg someone for something? Not in my previous or next life! Plus, as I repeatedly said before, the Phantom of LO, not realistic LO, is what I have been in limerence. This flawed Sensor LO with his SO is incapable of giving me anything ecstatic, except a stable, authentic friendship. I will not intrude anyone’s claimed “happy marriage”, as a third wheel, what’s the fun of it?????
“See, these two impulses you have are mutually exclusive – to disclose to your LO and to absolve him of all blame. If he’s genuinely blameless, why disclose at all? “
Because I confused him and was very mean to him, although he has forgiven me repeatedly — God knows why! I thought my childish behavior of last year could push him away permanently and bring myself out of limerence, but it did not work.
Put in the bluntest possible terms, your suffering isn’t his problem… And if you’re not suffering, why the super-strong urge to disclose?”
If you can see smiles on my face, you would not repeatedly claim that “I’m suffering”. To disclose to clarify a mystification and to possibly change/end the current false friendship.
“I think what Marcia wrote in response to you at some point is absolutely beautiful, and I wish I wrote it myself”
I already responded her post prior to this one. I’ll consider all your wisdom. There is no rush to disclose, I just couldn’t help think about it. I’m only going to have a legitimate cup of tea with LO to celebrate a small folk holiday of my COO.
“Lots of people aren’t in touch with their emotions, and all the disclosures in the world aren’t going to put them in touch with their emotions, or make them magically develop emotional intelligence or a conscience overnight.”
That’s so true! Changes never take place over night. Perhaps I’m trying to discover more about my deep emotions by discussing and refuting you guys’ thoughts. Right now, I feel I’m in a state of Agape + Philaupia.
“The complex emotions of limerence are something limerents very much have to work through on their own – one day at a time. Disclosure doesn’t always relieve the limerent of profound stress, nor free the LO from some real and/or imagined “repression”.
Yes. Limerence is our own addiction, we have to do all the tough work to get out of it. But with my daily meditations, I rarely get limerence lows nowadays, only highs or peace after interacting with LO as a person. So I’m not sure which limerence stage I am in. Also, my limerence has been transferred a great deal to conversing with you guys here — very alive, visible spirits while realistic LO appears in mind as a silent, invisible ghost.
“The music industry got it wrong. Love isn’t a battlefield. Limerence is a battlefield. But limerence is only a battlefield if two people are in limerence for each other, and consciously playing mind games with each other – which is actually a pretty ugly situation, if you think about it too much. “
Limerence in your mouth tend to sound so ugly, while you often defended your beautiful LOs! DrL never forgets to point out its two faces. In my case, I am pretty much sure I’m the only side that was/is in limerence without a SO.
“Love isn’t a game. Limerence is a game. In love, there are no winners and losers, no victories and no defeats. In limerence, there are winners and losers because it’s a game that can be either won or lost, depending on the supposed skill of the players.”
I totally agree with you on love. Limerence with two limerents might become a game (not in my case due to its single side), but It’s still an unwanted addiction limerents fall into, not by choice. You make them sound vicious, instead of pitiful.
“The problem with Romanticism is Romanticism mistakes limerence for love. Limerence can eventually lead to love, but it’s not love from the get-go. It’s lust and jealousy and possessiveness and all those other slightly questionable things. (Questionable because they are in conflict with Agape. the Christian ideal of love).”
But biologists, sociologist or even neuroscientist believe that jealousy and possessiveness are related to pair-bonding, so it’s the nature. Nothing we could do about the emotions besides choosing not to act out on them. I am spiritual, gnostic, so can’t get into that Christian ideal of love.
“I don’t think romantic rejection automatically leads to feelings of worthlessness. Not in everyone anyway. I think anything Eros-related is just highly-embarrassing to most people.”
WHY, WHY, WHY???
“And maybe that embarrassment is natural, in-born. And maybe that embarrassment is cultural, learnt. “
It’s cultural, learnt! Kids are not embarrassed to expose their body, until being taught to feel so later on.
“In essence, what I’ve learned is that most human beings are extremely sensitive, including the males, especially the males. Most people are quite squeamish about sex, and laughter more often than not is a cover for embarrassment. “
In general, Westerners are much more sensitive than Easterners, and often “make fuss” about their emotions/sentiments in the latter’s eyes. Sex is a taboo topic in the East, so it does not surface to the social radar.
“Most people are very insecure/socially anxious and don’t want to stand out in a crowd. Most people want to fit in with their friendship groups and be accepted.”
Conformity exists everywhere if one wants to “thrive”. But in Easterners’ eyes, westerners are more willing to stand out in a crowd; thus so many new discoveries and inventions. But I know you’re taking about in relationships.
“Very few people have the strength of character to be “lone wolves” or to go it alone. And even people like me, who do have the strength of character to “go it alone” may one day regret being so individualistic and idealistic.
I actually highly admire those lone-wolves, and sometime can’t put up with some of conformers, because they appear having no unique thoughts of their own, no creative sparkles, or no inspiring ideas…. I wish I could have a sense of belonging…
“Limerence doesn’t last, in other words. Limerence is all in the mind. So anything one hypothetically “wins” in limerence, e.g. an amazing feeling of euphoria, also doesn’t last. What goes up must come down. At some point, even the most starry-eyed of Romantics must say goodbye to passion and hello to reality.”
I haven’t felt “winning” much in my limerence. My own imagination spiked euphoria, which now can be given by my simple meditation. I don’t want to my invigorating energy to die down with or without limerence. Due to my cptsd and COO, I was never a starry-eyed, western romantics; I actually wish I could be more romantic and more expressive.
“Do you really want to know what makes people feel awkward? Playing the rejector role. Having to reject people one isn’t interested in. Even having to have that conversation in the first place. “
My LO has outright rejected my “affection” several times, which neither made him awkward, nor killed my limerence.
“A true stoic, I believe, would not put the LO into a position where the LO would have to do the awkward business of rejecting. “
I could never have said “cruel” things to my “limerents” as he politely did to me. The problem was that he did not DO what he said — let me exit the dynamic much sooner.
Sammy,
I can’t tell enough how much I’m grateful for your caring messages that have spun my brain to think and consider a vast expanded area of life beyond my own small one. Please forgive that I can’t easily shut up being an unquestioning follower of anyone or any ideas. I love to turn over every unturned stone to find out what’s hiding underneath it. So keep throwing stones towards my way….
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
I think the stoicism discussion might be tiring to some readers. To quote the delightfully witty Marcia: “I don’t read those messages. I’m not a patient person, and they’re too long, like “War and Peace,” part 2. 🙂” So let’s wrap things up…
First, I think you’re still in limerence, due to the amount of mental energy you expend on your LO. The volume and earnestness of your posts speak for themselves. 🙂
Secondly, I don’t believe your LO is limerent for you based on the following two admissions that you yourself have made:
“Because I confused him and was very mean to him, although he has forgiven me repeatedly — God knows why! I thought my childish behavior of last year could push him away permanently and bring myself out of limerence, but it did not work.”
“My LO has outright rejected my “affection” several times, which neither made him awkward, nor killed my limerence.”
One of my LOs was exactly like yours. He was a wonderful man. He was very kind. He let me write to him as much as I wanted – although, like yours, he could never move past superficial responses. (That should have been a red flag right there).
He was fond of me. Perhaps he even felt sorry for me? But he wasn’t limerent for me. He wasn’t addicted to me as I was to him, and his lack of addiction made the friendship unequal and ultimately extremely painful (to me) in the long run.
Like you, I apologised to him many times (for my neediness and over my simultaneous desire to break off the friendship repeatedly) and he always forgave me and took me back. His extremely indulgent attitude toward me really only signalled one thing – he wasn’t interested in me romantically. He didn’t spend massive amounts of time/energy thinking about our “relationship”. He was a nice person who perhaps pitied someone who felt lonely, and that’s about it.
(And all this interaction took place while we were both still single!!)
“If you can see smiles on my face, you would not repeatedly claim that “I’m suffering”. To disclose to clarify a mystification and to possibly change/end the current false friendship.”
Limerence by definition is suffering in the sense of compulsory longing i.e. suffering caused by not being able to stop thinking about a given person. If you’re not suffering, you’re either (a) not experiencing limerence, or (b) no longer experiencing limerence. Limerence and suffering are synonymous to my mind. Even in mutual limerence, one is suffering as one enjoys the heights of rapture.
I don’t think disclosing to someone as a kind of psychological experiment is advisable. E.g. “Oh hi. I USED to have feelings for you, but don’t anymore.” I think conducting psychological experiments on people without their consent is unethical. You just have to accept … this man isn’t “in the game” and most likely has never been “in the game” with you. Even if he is “in the game”, I’d echo what the women of LwL have said, which is: it’s inappropriate to disclose to someone who has an SO, out of respect for that person’s SO/relationship. If you need a higher authority, here’s Shakespeare: “Discretion is the better part of valour”.
“Why does an expression of affection, or Eros, become “social embarrassment”? This was what my earlier response asked — its origin to Romanism? cultural condition? Western psychology? In East, we just think it’s a not meant to be— fatalism, a bad luck, having nothing to do with the culture or social environment.”
I don’t know why the erotic lends itself to embarrassment, even among people who are single. I don’t think it can be traced exclusively to Romanticism, or Stoicism, or Ascetism, or any other school of thought. It probably has its roots in biology, all things considered. Adam and Eve making aprons out of fig-leaves is a fable about human proneness to shame, which is very likely innate, and not the capricious commandment of some pleasure-hating deity.
Human beings, as a rule, don’t like feeling uncomfortable and they don’t enjoy having to explain to other people they feel uncomfortable. That’s not an observation I’ve learned from any author/school of philosophy. That’s a truism I’ve learnt from everyday life. It’s just an unwritten social law that probably applies across time and place: “Thou shalt not make others uncomfortable.” 😉
“Limerence in your mouth tend to sound so ugly, while you often defended your beautiful LOs! DrL never forgets to point out its two faces. In my case, I am pretty much sure I’m the only side that was/is in limerence without a SO.”
Limerence, seen through the eyes of innocence, is beautiful. I thought limerence was beautiful as a nineteen-year-old, taking a long walk with my LO. Little did I know that that long walk really meant nothing to him…
Limerence, seen through the eyes of experience, isn’t always so beautiful. If one doesn’t end up with one’s LO, then one wonders: “What was the point of all that beauty?” Past LEs start to feel like “totally unnecessary life experiences I don’t need on my resume”. But the memories are so poignant one can’t forget them in a hurry.
“In the West, sexiness, sexuality and sex are loudly shown, advocated, and “sold” in all kinds of public domains — movies, TVs, internet, concerts, magazines, books, theaters, sports events, beaches, billboards, night clubs, and other cultural venues, you name it! The majority seems to feel no embarrassment or protests against such a liberated and liberating culture!”
Western society has a split view on sexuality. For example, when I was younger, I loved Madonna (the pop singer) and couldn’t see anything wrong with her music. Now that I’m older, I can understand why some “grown-ups” weren’t a fan of her music, or a fan of the messages they believed her music conveyed. (Most of Madonna’s songs could be persuasively interpreted as anthems to limerence!)
Limerence isn’t just a little crush. Limerence isn’t compatible with stoicism. Limerence is always hedonistic. Limerence is about excess. Limerence is a craving that is never satisfied, a craving that one can’t turn on and off at will. Limerence isn’t really compatible with many schools of philosophy apart from hedonism. Even Nature acknowledges that unbridled passion isn’t a sustainable condition for human brains, by putting a time limit (two-three years) on most infatuations.
“Sammy … I can’t tell enough how much I’m grateful for your caring messages that have spun my brain to think and consider a vast expanded area of life beyond my own small one. Please forgive that I can’t easily shut up being an unquestioning follower of anyone or any ideas. I love to turn over every unturned stone to find out what’s hiding underneath it.”
You’re very welcome. I have no negative feelings toward you. Also, I have no negative feelings toward limerence as a state per se or toward anyone experiencing limerence. What I feel is … limerence just isn’t/wasn’t the right choice for me, personally. Limerence was an odd fit with my nature/personality. When I was limerent, I definitely felt like there was something wrong with me, and now I don’t feel that way anymore. I feel “comfortable” in my own skin.
Post-limerence, one can still experience physical attraction and liking and all those wonderful things. But the attraction isn’t all-consuming. Post-limerence, attraction consists of a mild high or “boost” and no lows. Ecstasy doesn’t occur. One is perfectly happy for one’s crush to have a life of their own. There’s no overanalysing speech/behaviour. There’s much more mutuality in any bond. (Post-limerence, one is free to seek out people who actually like one back, and so the attraction never spins out of control, resulting in obsession, etc). 🙂
Bottom line: if the natural high of limerence is really just a reward for the act of pair-bonding, one can’t pair-bond with someone who doesn’t want to pair-bond with one, and one shouldn’t attempt to pair-bond with someone who’s already involved with another. The former is futile and the latter is immoral. 😉
Marcia says
Hi Sammy,
“First, I think you’re still in limerence, due to the amount of mental energy you expend on your LO. The volume and earnestness of your posts speak for themselves. 🙂”
I was thinking the same thing.
” Even if he is “in the game”, I’d echo what the women of LwL have said, which is: it’s inappropriate to disclose to someone who has an SO, out of respect for that person’s SO/relationship. ”
I agree with you. I can certainly understand the pain of becoming limerent for someone who is not available. You mentioned suffering with limerence … and that’s so true. And I know when I have been limerent, I felt so strongly, all I could think of doing was barrelling right toward my LO and pushing things forward. What else could I do but work these feelings out? But now with the perspective of being post-limerent, I see … that was sketch. My LO was married.
“Limerence, seen through the eyes of experience, isn’t always so beautiful. If one doesn’t end up with one’s LO, then one wonders: “What was the point of all that beauty?” Past LEs start to feel like “totally unnecessary life experiences I don’t need on my resume”. But the memories are so poignant one can’t forget them in a hurry.”
Agree with you here, too. But to add, with enough time and distance, the memories aren’t even that poignant. Unless the limerent had an actual relationship with the LO. But if it was just longing for the LO and never having them … no. I just feel now like I wasted my time.
“Limerence isn’t just a little crush. Limerence isn’t compatible with stoicism. Limerence is always hedonistic. Limerence is about excess. ”
Agree here, too. Limerence is decadence. It is a level-10, balls-to-the-walls, over-the-top, jump-over-the-cliff emotion. Holding it back is like holding back Niagra Falls. There’s nothing restrained about it. It’s the polar oppostie of stoicism.
“Post-limerence, one can still experience physical attraction and liking and all those wonderful things. But the attraction isn’t all-consuming.”
Yes, this is all true, too … but don’t you find that your “attractions” post-limerence … feel a little flat? That’s one thing I haven’t been able to figure out. What do you fill the limerent hole with? Because when you’ve experienced limerence for someone, finding someone “kind of cute” feels like a letdown. It’s much healthier, of course, but it’s like store Walmart cake versus homemade French pastries. And I miss the feeling of really being excited for someone. Really looking forward to seeing them.
Thank you for your message, Sammy.
Snowphoenix: He wrote it much better than I could have! 🙂
Adam says
” it’s inappropriate to disclose to someone who has an SO, out of respect for that person’s SO/relationship. ”
I think it works in the reverse too Marcia. I think disclosure as a limerent with a spouse is equally wrong. Even when I didn’t even know what limerence was then. But I very much wanted to. Especially early on when the high was “It is a level-10, balls-to-the-walls, over-the-top, jump-over-the-cliff emotion.” I wanted to confess what I felt. But good thing my rational brain was still somewhat functioning.
But don’t tell Lobo that. 🙂
“how can I tell her about you
girl please tell me what to do
everything seems right, whenever I am with you
so girl won’t you tell me how to tell her about you”
How Can I Tell Her About You — Lobo
https://youtu.be/pFZ3vr4Eh6A?si=zLpNuSgGov7bjB2b
Mila says
Marcia,
Now I have a sudden craving for French pastry🙄
I know what you mean by other attractions feeling a bit flat, though.
But I have a SO for whom I was limerent (and I‘m glad of it, it gives me poignant memories with a good ending), and now at my age I think I was lucky and it should be enough for me. No other attractions should be needed.
And now for the first time I really feel that it is enough for me.
Fan says
Sammy, I always enjoy your thoughts but this post blows it out of the water.
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy, Marcia
Just took 75 minutes (extra long) to meditate to change my mood from black to peach, so I beat up again all lows of limerence or whatever mental dis-eases in me.💃🏻
Ideation is not action; disclosure is not PA; naked expression of ideations is psychotherapy. 😁
I do not subscribe to any religion (Bible is a fabrication of collective human beings who put Adam and Eve there… biologically speaking, Jesus is out of an adultery….) but some philosophies, such as Stoicism and Buddhism, both are opposite of limerence; I’m still 4 years old to the formal practice, but a life time ignorant limerent since my teen.
Life is suffering, it’s default of human life! Accept and live with it, one obtains peace; fighting with it, woes perpetuate! Limerence is NOT a choice, but neurochemical imbalance; it can be cured if limerent want and can fill that huge hole of post-limerence. Shakespeare, as well Alexander Pope is brilliant that life in gray area with a dose of mysteriousness is even more attractive, it keeps hopes….
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
—Alexandr Solzhenitsyn
I’m getting ready to have tea, cake and walk with LO in 3 hours; will respond later in depth.
Have a great day and evening! 🌹🌹
Mila says
Sammy,
again, you put it all so beautifully in words, I agree on everything, thank you.
The only thing I disagree slightly with is this:
„“What was the point of all that beauty?” Past LEs start to feel like “totally unnecessary life experiences I don’t need on my resume”. But the memories are so poignant one can’t forget them in a hurry.“
While I‘m glad that my LEs are over and I don’t want any of it any more, I see them as parts of my life- they seem to have been necessary for my life, I learned lots about me and about people generally.
Also, beauty is beauty, even if there is a bad ending. I‘m still somehow thankful for this burning feeling of being alive, of being giddy of affection.
Your long walks with LO, you were happy, you felt alive, and this feeling belonged to you alone, regardless what your LO felt or didn’t feel. Beauty of life doesn’t always have a „point“ besides being beauty.
At least that‘s what I feel. I‘m still glad to have met these three fascinating people and dealt with this kind of overflowing emotion.
Having experienced this kind of ache put an additional layer to my emotional experience.
Still, I don‘t want any of it any more, I’ve had enough:)
But I cannot agree that it was totally unnecessary waste of time.
Marcia says
And this isn’t meant to sound moralistic, but do you not feel a sense of conflict or uneasiness if you feel this while being married?
Snowphoenix says
Mila,
Totally second you here. Every life experienced should be valued as a part of one”s life journey, even more so with beautiful ones! Beautiful ones give us joys; ugly ones teach us lessons.
Life is made of dualities! every coin has two sides, without either other side does not exist! Without ugliness, what would be beauty? Without evil, how good is defined then?
I don’t understand why people only want “positive” of everything, and demonize negative, cannot live with them in peace, if unable to get rid of them, is it possible not to age or die forever?
Mila says
Marcia,
Of course! A lot of uneasiness and conflict.
That’s why it had to end and why I‘m glad that it all ended. There were still beautiful parts of it, and it would be too easy and simply untrue to deny it.
Mila says
Snowphoenix,
How did the meeting go?
Snowphoenix says
@marcia,
I would not feel conflict or uneasy even if I were married.
That’s my internal experience, independent of external factors, particularly when PA is absent.
As DrL articulated: what’s in the head cannot be penalized; only actions can.
Therefore unrequited limerence is just a mental state, an intense emotion, not a realistic “crime”. Disclose of it is NOT immoral.
Sorry I just cannot agree with you on this, especially after our earlier conversation when you asked me why not taking LO’s PA offer and enjoy it when it lasts, which almost made me regret my stoic refusal.
I don’t regret, but not for your kind of reasons. Again every SO and their SO are responsible for each other, not the 3rd party.
Snowphoenix says
Mila,
Has t happen yet. I am not going to disclose today, if at all.
But ideation of and debate about it help clarify my mind. It’s a form of therapy. Thanks to you guys!
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“I would not feel conflict or uneasy even if I were married.
That’s my internal experience, independent of external factors, particularly when PA is absent.”
That’s what a lot of posters write.
But to me, if you are with somebody, limerence is too much. It’s crossing the line. I don’t want to be with someone who’s fixated/obsessed with someone else.
“As DrL articulated: what’s in the head cannot be penalized; only actions can.”
I don’t agree with everything he writes. 🙂
“Disclose of it is NOT immoral.”
I think it’s bordering on it, yes. If one is in a relationship with someone else or limerent for someone who is unavailable, disclosing is just bad juju.
“Sorry I just cannot agree with you on this, especially after our earlier conversation when you asked me why not taking LO’s PA offer and enjoy it when it lasts, which almost made me regret my stoic refusal.”
Would I have had a PA with my LO at the height of my limerence? Yes. I hope my answer is different now. I don’t want to sign up for a situation with a person who will be torn and conflicted and offering me crumbs.
Marcia says
Mila,
“There were still beautiful parts of it, and it would be too easy and simply untrue to deny it.”
I’m kind of at a loss to find the beauty. The highs were great, the excitement of being around my LOs, but the LEs never amounted to much. By that I mean only LO became a serious partner. But the relationship was kind of a train wreck. I’m not one of those lucky people who becomes limerent for good LOs. 🙂
Snowpheonix says
The one-hour tea and 3 types of cake sharing under the bright sun and breezes in the park were very cordial and courteous, more polite than close friend. I felt very comfortable, relaxed, happy, spontaneous in talking, and don’t think he felt awkward, but he was more reserved and distanced than the last time we met privately 15 months ago as “friends”. A lot of positive and negative stuff happened in between 15 months, but all seemed not have existed this afternoon — in my probably still altered mental state 😋
LO is very interested in learning about my summer (he knew some huge changes occurred, since I’m much more relaxed and joyful with tons of smiles, to others as well) — my individuation process, cocktail meditation, on-line mental “rehab”… in a word, my ongoing healing “endeavor”, and exactly how I’ve been getting better. Before LwL, he was my unofficial and unreciprocal therapeutic ear. I’m an “opportunist” who wants to get some benefits out of every experience, even negative ones.
So I did more talking as usual, he listened to me attentively and asked a couple of instantaneous, relevant questions from an intellectual perspective. He did not say that he’s interested in them personally, but “academically” as he “generally cares about colleagues’ and friends’ life.” Absolutely no judgement of any kind. He’s a body-mind type of person, believing psychosomatic effects of negative and positive mental conditions.
I tested whether he still wanted to know about his “mystification” (stated in April), he said he forgot what he was referring to. I thought this could signify that he does not want to talk or care about it anymore; it could also be true that he did forget. Either way, it seems that he does not want to hear more about any kind of personal confessions or answers from me. I decided there and then there is no need to disclose anything.
So the word “limerence” never appeared in our conversation, but my newly-found embarrassing addictive condition, something equivalent of cocaine addiction but it’s not, something inspirational as well as painful, something bringing one high as well as low…. I went around and around avoiding the term, and he never even asked what name is of this condition! I almost thought he was pretending he did not know, so as not to embarrass me further, or lead conversation to some kind of personal disclosure that he wants to avoid. Some LOs prefer, particularly unreciprocating or uninteresting ones, not to hear unwanted affections.
I told him that I am in an online community trying to understand and heal this condition. Of course, I did not reveal anything about our site, and referred DrL as “Doctor Who”. He did not poke around. From the beginning to the end I repeated I didn’t want to load him with more of my personal journey, after already having “pulled” him in for 6 years as a witness and bystander, with a lot of misunderstanding, erratic behaviors, eg. my mean letter, etc. He repeated that he wanted to care more, but did not want to pressure me to reveal any personal stuff. He said that he really appreciated that I shared with him today, although I had no idea in advance what we were going to talk about — worried about it was going to be like in-person chitchats.
We did not talk at all about our emotional states for our “friendship” status like back in April when I was trying a closure. Because it stayed so much on an intellectual inquiring level, we both felt at ease, while enjoying the chrysanthemum petal tea and cakes. He took an extra piece of his most favorite kind back to office.
At the end under my enquire, he enthusiastically told me about his current “empty-nest” life with SO, and he “professionally” wished me good lucks in my healing “endeavor.” Then I took a long walk along a beautiful river, ruminating my joy of being with the platonic, friendly LO again, not as deep as I could have hoped for, but pleasant enough in my humble, limerent eyes! 🫠
That’s how our polite, “gray” meeting went, we were beating around an “addictive condition” without ever naming it! ☺️
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“That’s how our polite, “gray” meeting went, we were beating around an “addictive condition” without ever naming it”
I’ve experienced the same thing with limerence. We were always on a different page, having two separate covnersations, me trying to inject all this subtext so that he’d finally figure out my feelings.
The few times I did think we had an actual, real conversation, that we were making some progress and connecting … the next time I saw him, we’d go back to talking about what he ate for lunch.
In a normal situation, if I had been dating him, I think I would have given up. But because I was limerent … I keep pressing for/searching for openings.
Snowpheonix says
@Marcia,
“I’ve experienced the same thing with limerence. We were always on a different page, having two separate covnersations, me trying to inject all this subtext so that he’d finally figure out my feelings.”
No, no, no. I was trying to hide my feelings. I did most talk to answer his sincere questions about my summer, in which I couldn’t avoid talking about my limerence exploration but not its name, I was not ready to let him to find out that I had LE for him, although he might already guessed without terminology. I told him that I just brushed over my journey without going into any details.
I was only testing the water today to see if it’s wise or even possible to disclose. I don’t know whether he has ever heard of the term “limerence”, so avoided it entirely.
Without the tension or nervousness on both sides in our previous limited meetings, I was glad that we did not feel awkward in this meeting. There was no previous attraction, eagerness or warmth in depth, but all polite consideration and cordiality. Afterward, I still felt a pinch deep inside me — a leftover limerence is still in me.
As you were saying before, it was as good as it could go. During my sole long walk, I tried to focus on positive feelings and truly enjoyed the warm sunlight and the beautiful river.
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy,
“I think the stoicism discussion might be tiring to some readers.”
Everyone could choose whatever and whoever they want to read here. I personally still want to practice more of “stoicism”, because it’s tough beneficial mental shield one can build to protect particular limenrent’s sensitive heart.
“First, I think you’re still in limerence, due to the amount of mental energy you expend on your LO.”
I never denied that I’m still in limerence. In the past, I had more discussions with you in general topics, only lately wrote more about LO in an exchange with Marcia, since she was recalling more of her “older” LOs. Other posters consistently talk more about their LOs.
“Secondly, I don’t believe your LO is limerent for you based on the following two admissions that you yourself have made:”
I already told Nisor that I am 99% sure that LO is not limerent for me, this is one-side unrequited limerence. But I wish an authentic friendship after LE, if it’s too fake or painful while I am still in LE.
From the beginning, I knew I would be in a dead end if I desired an EA or PA (unthinkable for the 1st 4 years). I did NOT expect him to ever respond me like a limerent — I even told him that I confessed to him with an image of him as a red-cloaked bishop! He responded that I gave him too much power, which he did not want. I went LE with a surrogate father and was quite content he “severed” like one. He patiently listened more WITHOUT any judgment than my own father ever did. So your case of being with kind, wounderful LO is not parallel with mine, you want your LO being limerent for you as a lover.
During one’s vulnerable time, if someone else shows us genuine compassion and appropriate care, and forgive us repeatedly, what more do we want? If you think all limerents crave, or should carve by definition, much more than that, then I can only say then I did not qualify as a “true” limerent. 😳
Your LO was single, so of course you expected and wanted more. My LO is unavailable from Day One, I could not expect or want anything romantic, but at most a good friendship. I sincerely appreciated his parental role when I needed it most! Can’t this gratitude be enough for a true friendship? Whatever in LO’s mind is his business, not mine; if pining too much about reciprocation, then I would SUFFER!
“Limerence by definition is suffering in the sense of compulsory longing i.e. suffering caused by not being able to stop thinking about a given person. “
Sustained longing is painful. But if the thought of a cheerful, supportive LO brings limerents some imagined or perceived pleasure, or even inspiration and creativities to impress LO or the whole world, then limerence is better than void or indifference, 👎which is often the pre-condition of limerence.
“Limerence and suffering are synonymous to my mind. Even in mutual limerence, one is suffering as one enjoys the heights of rapture.”
You can repeat this 1000 times, I still DISAGREE with you. You can only speak for your own experiences, NOT mine!
“I don’t think disclosing to someone as a kind of psychological experiment is advisable. E.g. “Oh hi. I USED to have feelings for you, but don’t anymore.” I think conducting psychological experiments on people without their consent is unethical. “
I’m not treating it as a psychological experiment, I genuinely want to disclose to him if he cares to listen. And who says that I would not ask for a consent beforehand? Today I asked again and again beforehand whether he really wanted to hear about my summer, worrying I’d overload him with my personal stuff.
“You just have to accept … this man isn’t “in the game” and most likely has never been “in the game” with you. “
I have accepted it before I even found LwL, why you kept convince me this? Just because I talked about him a little more in a positive light lately? 🧐
Even if he is “in the game”, I’d echo what the women of LwL have said, which is: it’s inappropriate to disclose to someone who has an SO, out of respect for that person’s SO/relationship. “
I’m not sure you even know the gender of person you’re quoting. Considering for SO is their LO or limerent’s duty, not mine. Everyone is on their own first, particularly taking care of one’s own mental health, before meddling with others’ business. 😉
“If you need a higher authority, here’s Shakespeare: “Discretion is the better part of valour”.
I do not need any high authority. If someone pressure me with their title, I’ll do opposite to rebel, period! ⚔️
You yourself previously tried to convince me to get rid of fake friendship so to have an authentic one; now, you advocate for a gray area! Well, I had a quite “discrete” joyful meeting with LO today and enjoy it, and we agree to have more “discrete” tea together, are you content now❓❓
“I don’t know why the erotic lends itself to embarrassment, even among people who are single. I don’t think it can be traced exclusively to Romanticism, or Stoicism, or Ascetism, or any other school of thought. It probably has its roots in biology, all things considered. “
Nope. This embarrassment don’t show in some non-Christian culutres, not in pre-Christian eras, not in Greek mythology, not in animal kingdom. So don’t try to convince this with biology! 🤨
“Adam and Eve making aprons out of fig-leaves is a fable about human proneness to shame, which is very likely innate, and not the capricious commandment of some pleasure-hating deity.”
Adam and Eve are created in Bible to shame one human instinctual nature. I don’t buy it at all!
“Human beings, as a rule, don’t like feeling uncomfortable and they don’t enjoy having to explain to other people they feel uncomfortable. “
Never heard of such a rule. Suffering is this life’s default! Hiding it or expressing it affects one’s mental health, one’s own choice! Would you please not to speak for all human beings? Can you just present yourself❓
“Thou shalt not make others uncomfortable.”
In general it’s true. It would ruin harmony in my COO. But how do we know what make one uncomfortable? If you talk about disclosure, Sensor or Narc LOs would run for it! I never felt uncomfortable when my limerents or suitors disclosed their affections to me — I am not a Sensor or Narc. I admired and respected their courage and thus them more. My LO also said that to me repeatedly, I believed his sincerity. 🙂
“Limerence, seen through the eyes of innocence, is beautiful. “
Glimmer is beautiful in eyes of all ages. Limerence is craving, teenage as well as later audlts don’t understand what it is, we SLIP into it., out of our “CHOICE”. It’s a neurochemical imbalance. It’s a mental disease that needs to be treated, but the whole world does not quite know about it yet.
“I thought limerence was beautiful as a nineteen-year-old, taking a long walk with my LO. Little did I know that that long walk really meant nothing to him…”
It sounds like it’s healthy dating, not limerence; the latter is a craving state. If you enjoyed the long walk, then all benefit to you; did it really matter what it meant to him? Why do you want to control other’s mind and emotions? I have little idea how LO felt or feels now about our meeting today, but it matters little. I ENJOY it, that’s sufficient! ☺️
“Limerence, seen through the eyes of experience, isn’t always so beautiful. If one doesn’t end up with one’s LO, then one wonders: “What was the point of all that beauty?” Past LEs start to feel like “totally unnecessary life experiences I don’t need on my resume”. But the memories are so poignant one can’t forget them in a hurry.”
Mika already wisely answered your points here. I feel so sorry for you, Sammy. Life is made of all sorts of dualities. Just because one side of coin is dirty, the beauty of other side is negated, that’s a tragic view on life. All life experiences are valuable, beautiful ones bring one joys and lasting memory; bitter ones teach one lessons, brings one wisdom (only coming from mistakes). Wise ones enjoy journey itself; foolish ones rush for the end… Have you heard of Japanese living philosophy of Wabi-Sabi? 👍🏼
https://youtu.be/QmHLYhxYVjA?si=gxLwXi5a348fPbsh
“Western society has a split view on sexuality. “
That’s expected in any society, but the west invest so much more energy and wealth on promoting sexiness and delusional Romanticism. Most of pop songs are whining of limerence or impractical romantics, which only make those two conditions ever lasting! I still like Madonna for the music, can’t follow all her song’s lyrics, though.
“Limerence isn’t just a little crush” — it’s an oversized, “poetic grade infatuation”. ❣️
“Limerence isn’t compatible with stoicism.” — they are completely opposite!🤝
“Limerence is always hedonistic” — disagree. Unrequited ones suffer tremendously or beautifully when it’s genuinely unrequited love. 🌹
“Limerence is about excess. “ — not always, it inspire creativities and inventions for the whole world. 🌹🌹
“Limerence is a craving that is never satisfied, a craving that one can’t turn on and off at will.” — that seems to be true, since neurology is involved. 😟
“Limerence isn’t really compatible with many schools of philosophy apart from hedonism.” — limerence is NOT compatible with hedonism; 👎 the letter lacks inspiration for creativities.
“Even Nature acknowledges that unbridled passion isn’t a sustainable condition for human brains, by putting a time limit (two-three years) on most infatuations.”
Well, mine is has passed 6 years mark, yours took 17 years to heal. And what is really “sustainable” in human brains, besides constant changes and evolving, until they shrink and die? 😰
“What I feel is … limerence just isn’t/wasn’t the right choice for me,”
You keep using “choice”. It’s not CHOICE of any limerent.
I don’t know what is supposed to be my skin, my skin constant changes and evolves, so I constantly adjust it and try to feel comfortable with it. My meditation is helping me. 👍🏼
“Post-limerence, one can still experience physical attraction and liking and all those wonderful things. But the attraction isn’t all-consuming. Post-limerence, attraction consists of a mild high or “boost” and no lows. “
Nowadays I don’t experience much lows but am still attracted to LO’s pleasant presence and enjoy our friendlier, more relaxed interactions. Not sure where I am in terms of limerence, and do not need to figure it out. I can’t get anything more from him due to the barrier, so this is as good as it goes. 🫠
“Ecstasy doesn’t occur.” — I get giddiness just by completing a successful meditation session. 💃🏻
“One is perfectly happy for one’s crush to have a life of their own. There’s no overanalysing speech/behaviour. There’s much more mutuality in any bond. (Post-limerence, one is free to seek out people who actually like one back, and so the attraction never spins out of control, resulting in obsession, etc). “
I’m sure of it. I had a marriage out of such a seeming bond. LO #4 was a non-limerent type.
“Bottom line: if the natural high of limerence is really just a reward for the act of pair-bonding, one can’t pair-bond with someone who doesn’t want to pair-bond with one, and one shouldn’t attempt to pair-bond with someone who’s already involved with another. The former is futile and the latter is immoral. “
I never attempt to bond with LO (and several ex unavailable LOs), and even refused it when offered. Up to this date, I have not broken my own oath made after NC with LO#2. What’s going on in my head is my freedom, I hope you’re not a thought policeman! 😁
Snowpheonix says
Typo:
I’m we SLIP into it., NOT out of our “CHOICE”.
MiLa already wisely answered your points here. I really resonate with her sentimentality.
Mila says
Snowphoenix,
I didn’t want to romanticize limerence or be sentimental about it.
It still was painful and let me feel wrong a lot of the time. These feelings of being alive, deep emotions, the appreciating of a beautiful person, they were positive things the limerence brought about, but not the essence of limerence (dependence, addiction).
I still think they were a part of me and my evolving, but I hope I evolved in a way that let me feel/see these things seperated from this person addiction.
I cannot express my point well, I know.
I don’t really get you, Snow. You claim you are limerent and say that limerence is a craving, but then you claim that you don’t crave more than you get, anyway, that you don’t suffer.
You attack Sammy who was actually just trying to help. It‘s good for you, if you know that your LO won’t reciprocate and that you are happy with it, and that you see limerence as a thoroughly positive experience. But what do you need the meditating and this site for?
By which I don’t mean at all that you shouldn’t be here, I just don’t get what you as a person really feel/mean most of the time, there are so many packages of diagnosed mental states, quotes of books or philosopers etc.
Maybe it’s my fault, I‘m not feeling well today and my head explodes, and maybe I‘m not patient or intelligent enough to read the real feelings/goals out of your posts.
You don’t need have to answer to that, I was just surprised of the sudden attack on Sammy as „thought police“, it disturbed me somewhat because I liked his post.
I think I lie down a bit now 🤯
I‘m glad that your meeting went well and friendly but not limerence-inducing.
That could be a base for developing a friendship, maybe a better base than disclosing .
Snowpheonix says
@Mila,
Thank you for responding my post even if you’re not feeling well today. I so appreciate it!
“I didn’t want to romanticize limerence or be sentimental about it.”
I admit that I have had a tendency in my whole life to romanticize everything regardless it’s positive or negative. By comparison (w/ some posts here), I seem to try harder (or habitually, due to my COO) to appreciate experiences of both natures, since they already happened, one can’t erase them from one’s memory or life journey — already painted on the large canvas of one’s life. So psychologically how we should or need to deal with negative ones without continuing suffering from FACTS? This is mental mental skills I strongly believe that anyone can learn (written beautifully in Dalai Lama’s blood “Art of Happiness). That’s why in my previous posts to you and others, I repeatedly emphasizing one can benefit from both beautiful or ugly experiences, instead of only focusing on one side.
“It still was painful and let me feel wrong a lot of the time. These feelings of being alive, deep emotions, the appreciating of a beautiful person, they were positive things the limerence brought about, but not the essence of limerence (dependence, addiction).”
That’s not what I understand based on Tunnov and Dr. L. In limerence’s both positive and negative could occur simultaneously, just as you described here. I suffered “perceived” abandonment melange so much (induced by LO’s ignorant acts), more due to cptsd, that my thyroiditis changed into lymphoma. So I could romantically exaggerat: I almost lost my life literally during my limerence!
“I still think they were a part of me and my evolving, but I hope I evolved in a way that let me feel/see these things seperated from this person addiction. I cannot express my point well, I know.”
I totally agree with you here, all experiences we already have are a part of us and our evolving. There are unintended paints splashed on the painting, we could cover them pretending they were never there, or amend them with bright colors, or leave them there as a reminder of our mistakes and try to avoid them in the future. No matter how much we have evolved, we’ll continue make mistakes in this imperfect world, only hopefully less in quality and quantity.
“I don’t really get you, Snow. You claim you are limerent and say that limerence is a craving, but then you claim that you don’t crave more than you get, anyway, that you don’t suffer.”
Craving has Degrees! I crave mint chip ice crame, but I only but a jar every 3 or 4 months. Limerence involves craving for sure, I craved LO’s presence for 6 years without understanding why since our interactions were mostly superficial. But due to the barrier, I knew craving more is impossible, and it would only bring me more sufferings. So my mind, trained by COO/FOO living philosophies, mostly Buddhism and some Stoicism (capital S), kept telling me: enjoy what you already has (like a lousy job), while pursuing ideals (I spoke this with Marcia).
“You attack Sammy who was actually just trying to help. “
I indeed attacked Sammy, because he waved this morality stick, with this authoritative tone, on my thoughts or mere ideation. I attacked him not for his benevolent intentions, but for his attitude and the way they tried to help — to my ear, he almost sounded hysterical in his last post, trying to “attack” and stop my ideation of disclose and moderate description of LO lately in the exchanges with Marcia. Did he all of sudden become my surrogate father or my pastor?
Aside from my admiration for Sammy’s brilliant mind, brave honesty, provoking and challenging thoughts, high dose of feminine sensibility and sensitivity, humorous and crafty writing, and other marvelous personality traits shined through his posts, I have three major complains about his POSTS to ME (I read his posts to others as well), 1. Sometimes patronizing (or instructing) me by making cultural assumptions (right or wrong) without sufficient knowledge of me in current reality) 2. Generalizing limerence too much AS IF his personal extremely painful LE represents other limerents while intellectually knowing every limerent and every LE is different. 3. His overall (current) attitudes towards limerence, or even life as a whole, sounds bitter, sarcastic, and pessimistic.
“It‘s good for you, if you know that your LO won’t reciprocate and that you are happy with it, and that you see limerence as a thoroughly positive experience.”
Hold o here: “happy” is different from “content”, I’m mostly content with a bit of underline desire still there — just a human, which I don’t let disturb my normal life too much. I never saw my limerence as “thoroughly” positive experience; however its positivity seems to be more than some of other posters exposed here. I might be inaccurate, because to my ear, too many complains and “cryings”, for which I deeply feel sorry 😰, AS IF there were no positive moments in their LEs. That’s why I think that too muich focus on its negativities, one forgets its positive nature, such as LO’s sweet smiles or polite kindness…. Again, duality exists simultaneously, one embraces one side, one has to deal with the other.
“But what do you need the meditating and this site for?”
I experience a lot of neurological – dysregulation out of cptsd, which I experience every single morning or during the day. My nervous system is easily flared up by so many “un”conscious elements existing in environments. It’s gong to be a long journey to rewire my nervous system, according to Crappy Childhood Faire.
I come here to share with fellow limerents who have had similar experiences, which I can’t do in my reality. Feeling free to express one’s LE frustrations and sufferings of lifetime, as well as obtained insight and joys, is very therapeutic and liberating. I can learn from others’ “errors” and share my journey of dealing with the existing limerence, positive or negative, and learn how to put it under my control with peace. Isn’t it what we are all here for?
“By which I don’t mean at all that you shouldn’t be here, I just don’t get what you as a person really feel/mean most of the time, there are so many packages of diagnosed mental states, quotes of books or philosopers etc.”
I read other books, famous quotes or philosophical ideas, but most of them are written by outsiders, with authoritative tones and generalizations. I want to hear really people’s insights, authentic thoughts and emotions at an equal basis. No one here is “above or below” anyone else, we all shared our LE sufferings, unique and common. I believe, with all external assistances, a cure has to come from our internal Self.
Also reading others’ work is PASSIVE, but writing and verbally expressing is ACTIVE, therapeutic, two activities are fundamentally different. That’s why when I monologued to the Phantom, even with just silence, I still achieved therapeutic benefits. The imagination that I was heard as an emotional “orphan” is therapeutic (LO remembers a lot of my substantial ramblings). Here, I so appreciate you and other responders, who have made my scribblings more meaningful. I don’t get offended at all, if no one reads my marathon ramblings; what other people do or think is their business, out of my control — a small dose of Stoicism here. I do whatever I think is beneficial while respecting rules here.
“Maybe it’s my fault, I‘m not feeling well today and my head explodes, and maybe I‘m not patient or intelligent enough I’ve to read the real feelings/goals out of your posts.”
Not all, Mila, I don’t see any “fault” here. You have asked rightful questions, I’m happy here answer. Please never hesitate to say to me what’s true in your mind, disagreement is even more beneficial in many ways. What you say or ask has been an inspiration to me for more self-examining and self-learning.
I was just surprised of the sudden attack on Sammy as „thought police“, it disturbed me somewhat because I liked his post.
I love Sammy’s posts, which have evoked a lot of unknowns or vague thoughts deeply buried inside my muddled mind. You have seen how my mind gets clarified more and more by debating with him. If not beneficial, why I would spend hours, day and night (sometime 3 or 4am) trying to respond whatever he had provoked inside me. But everyone has something we dislike or disagree, no one is subjectively perfect. I already had some 🤨😏 feelings about something in his old posts, but tried not to spill them out and just focused on the beneficial points that has marvelously spun my head. You see what is repressed would always surface like a “volcano” later. Sometime, politeness is a “curse” to one’s authentic being.
“I‘m glad that your meeting went well and friendly but not limerence-inducing. That could be a base for developing a friendship, maybe a better base than disclosing.”
Thank you. As I said, I was testing the water and decided “there and then” that disclosure is unnecessary at present, because LO already forget, or pretends to have forgot, what made him mystified, which means whatever bothered him 6 months ago no longer exists now, or he does not want to go back there. Therefore, there is no point to take things backwards, just move forward with this sense of friendship (easier to keep without ever having EA or PA).
I hope you rest well and feel better, and thank you again for voicing out your concerns and cares for me.
Mila says
I don’t know, Snowphoenix.
I skimmed over Sammy’s post again and I cannot agree. He just spoke his mind in the same way as you do, and in your last post you were way more aggressive than he ever was.
Of course it‘s all written out of his own experience, as we all do. We could all put a „only in my opinion“ „in my experience „ etcetc at every beginning of a sentence, but is this really necessary?
You put your „limerence is this and limerence is that“ sentences in exactly the same form as him, without adding that this is only your experience.
I cannot read anything hysterical, sarcastic or bitter in his posts. He‘s just wary of limerence as he experienced it, which is sane enough, and he tried to convey some of his experience of years to you.
I think you read some „tone of voice“ into it, that isn’t there. For example, with the remark that the stoa- discussion might be tiring for the readers, he meant himself at least as much as you, I guess.
He‘s always well-spoken and polite, and if he got a bit more outspoken in the last post, me, I liked it.
Well, I‘ll stop defending him, it‘s not my business in the end, and I still have a headache (thank you for the good wishes, Snowphoenix)
I wish you all a good evening (it’s evening here, at least), and a restful night!
Snowpheonix says
@Mila,
This is one alive example of “five blind me touching an elephant” illustration — with different background, different reader understand different things from a same passage.
In my last post, I was not merely referring Sammy’s latest posts, but a collective older ones.
I reread his latest post, and agree with you that he did speak and refer mostly (not all) to his own experiences, with more sophisticated ways of relating, rather than “that’s just my experience”.
Sammy’s voice is strong, often emphasizing his points by REITERATIONs — repeating a sentence pattern with just one or two words altered, it reads almost like a rhyme in some children’s books. I liked it very much when I first came online, finding it hypnotic — it’s a literal technique in speech for persuasion.
However, this speech pattern is also found in some Asperger kids I worked with, they repeated something again, again and again until someone literally forced them to recite another sentence pattern to express the same idea. In my writing classes, we’re told to STRIVE not to use the same words twice (in poetry) in the same stanzas or even in an entire poem, and avoid same sentence patterns in essays and story telling.
But when one strongly advocates something against another’s ideas, such iterations could sound like “hysterical” — Sammy’s passage:
“Limerence isn’t just a little crush. Limerence isn’t compatible with stoicism. Limerence is always hedonistic. Limerence is about excess. Limerence is a craving that is never satisfied, a craving that one can’t turn on and off at will. Limerence isn’t really compatible with many schools of philosophy apart from hedonism. Even Nature acknowledges that unbridled passion isn’t a sustainable condition for human brains, by putting a time limit (two-three years) on most infatuations.”
When I first read it, It almost drove my nerves to the roof! I think I was reminded of some suffering Asperger kids, for language and speech are their worst barrier in learning. You see, this is one piece of “background” I have as a reader, that you may not have.
When I got provoked, I could be really aggressive and acidic in words. You haven’t read the accusing, attacking letter/message I sent to LO last October, and he forgave me in a couple of day, but I still pull off 2nd harsh in-person NC. I finally officially apologized and “took it back” last month in September, because something I accused of in the letter was my LE “perceptions”, not really truths. Afterwards, I saw real joy in his eyes. He never mentioned again even in yesterday’s meeting; he knew I was a woman of words — mean what I say, keep my “promises”, and retrieve them if wrongly spoken.
“You put your „limerence is this and limerence is that“ sentences in exactly the same form as him, without adding that this is only your experience.”
I’ll try to remember your observation here, and be more specific. I thought I was careful, since my experiences were always at odds with majority or mainstream — I was born a “rebel”.
“I cannot read anything hysterical, sarcastic or bitter in his posts. “
Not just in his several posts, but even in his poems. It’s really all over the places. My impression is that his LE has darkened the whole world to him…. I also detected some plausible causes of his excessive pains and general negative views —compared to mine, but I’m not going to talk here.
“I think you read some „tone of voice“ into it, that isn’t there. For example, with the remark that the stoic- discussion might be tiring for the readers, he meant himself at least as much as you, I guess.”
He was referring to Marcia’s response “you guys are writing “War and Peace 2”… so he’s kindly consider for other readers’ feelings and preferences.
“He‘s always well-spoken and polite, and if he got a bit more outspoken in the last post, me, I liked it.”
Yes, he’s very articulate and thoughtful in all posts, but this past one, I could not help feel he’s adding an “authoritative tone” against my ideation of disclosure: “if you need a higher authority (I HATE authority figures no matter with what titles)….” “Limerence, by definition….(differing from DrL’s original one)… “Human being by the rule….” “Bottom line: if the natural high of limerence is really just a reward for the act of pair-bonding….” (it’s LO’s EMOTIONAL reciprocation, pair-bonding is instinctually coded in the Glimmer, not the primary conscious aim — NOT MINE at least for 4 years!)…. Do you hear what I’m hearing here?
“Well, I‘ll stop defending him, it‘s not my business in the end”
I’d appreciate anyone’s defense or offense on topics, matters, points, not on speakers, which would urge me to examine my self within — why do I view a same matter differently from others? What does such a view speak about me? Here is a Proust’s quote I like very much ( I don’t agree with all Proust’s observations or sentiments on life.)
“In reality, every reader, while he is reading, is the reader of his own self. The writer’s work is merely a kind of optical instrument, which he offers to the reader to permit him to discern what, without the book, he would perhaps never have seen in himself. The reader’s recognition in his own self of what the book says is the proof of its truth.”
-Marcel Proust, Le temps retrouvé
See, your post urges me to dig out possible reasons I was reading things from Sammy’s post different from yours.
I hope you have a restful sleep, and wake up with a bright smile!
Snowpheonix says
@Mila
Reiteration also sound like chanting, and I can’t deal chantings (traumatized by them in my childhood) which make chills run through my whole body, even just the imagination of their sounds in my head….
Mila says
Hi Snowphoenix,
I cannot agree or read/see the things in Sammy’s post that you read/see. You seem to be completely in your own world there.
I don‘t like it one bit that you take a post of a fellow limerent and take it apart for negative analysis with heavy accusations thrown in.
Maybe you realized that he‘s silent now.
There‘s enough hostility in the world right now, I would think.
Mila says
I mean, I understand that one can be irked by this or that in another‘s post, but we all have different ways of speaking and we all should have a safe place here.
One could show in a friendly way that one disagrees, but your last two posts are in my opinion completely over-reacted and really cross a line in starting to put psychological diagnostic on it.
Well, I‘ve had my say, now I think I should take a break from this site anyway again, don’t know if I manage, but I feel it’s getting unhealthy again for me.
Snowpheonix says
@Mila
I don’t think you fully understand my previous two messages to you, I’ve taken more SELF-psychoanalysis, trying to figure out why I had different readings than yours, which turned out it triggered two old traumas.
I do not agree that I was “hostile” (triggered and aggravated, Yes) in my messages to Sammy or you, but pointed out what I dislike like in some passages, or what’s the issues with ME while hearing subtle authoritative or patronizing tones of some posts. Listing my views/points is not attacking speakers in any manner, in discussion or debates that always should focus on topics and points. A lot of times, objective discussion or debates help clear mind, reduce, or even remove emotional pains.
I understand your emotions and wishes for harmony and positivities, but generalized statements do not resolve any “confrontational” issues raised among posts. You like Sammy’s post, I LOVE his posts that make me think, dig deeper within, and mature more; however, that does not mean I agree with all his points and the tone of expressing.
Sarcastically speaking I’m flattered that one of my ideation, disclosure, deserved a Crusades and the following debates with your defenses. Please notice that I did NOT say Sammy is a “thought police”, only that I wish he is NOT one.
Have a very restful break, Mila.
Snowpheonix says
@Mila,
“I cannot read anything hysterical, sarcastic or bitter in his posts. He‘s just wary of limerence as he experienced it, which is sane enough, and he tried to convey some of his experience of years to you.
I think you read some „tone of voice“ into it, that isn’t there. “
Do you realize that your response above challenged my original post to Sammy and thus pushed me to respond how I got my impressions or “negative” statements?
In order to show you how and why I felt and thought the way I did, I had to use the specific passages —DATA, to demonstrate and support my points — a requirement for any form of debates.
I should have resisted the urge to “discuss/debate” with you and reserve them for Sammy if he’s ever interested in knowing why and how. Here, I apologize to Sammy for my rush reactions to a side defender in a public domain.
“I don‘t like it one bit that you take a post of a fellow limerent and take it apart for negative analysis with heavy accusations thrown in.”
Once I showed you the Data and told you in detail the reasons why some passages sound like general statements or with “authoritative” tones, or chanting (triggered me personally), then you accuse me now that I heartlessly took a fellow limerent’s post apart “for negative analysis.” I merely answered and responded your puzzlements.
“Maybe you realized that he‘s silent now.”
Of course, clear and loud! But I am not going to ruminate over all possibilities in a limerent style (like previously dealing with LO); instead I’ll look at it with a more Stoic eye 👁️:
1. He might be busy with his work or personal life.
2. He might feel upset, angry, hurt or…. but emotions will pass soon or later on his owe or via talking with his friends.
3. He might decide to take a break, then come back to LwL.
4. He might decide to completely ignore Snowphoenix from now on, but will chat with others.
5. He might think about how and what to respond Snowpheonix’s posts.
6. He might just forget about this “chapter” of debate, and move to other non-debatable, “laid-back” topics in LwL.
7. He might do a combination of some or all above.
8. He might keep silence indefinitely.
All these possibilities lie in Sammy’s head and hand, there is no way to know for sure, thus they are out of my “control”, useless for me to ruminate over. All I can do is to focus on what I have in “control” in my small life, particularly in my head. If I have to lose a conversation buddy, or all of you, then C’est la vie! I would not hold any grudges against any limerent “ghost” here.
Mila, Sammy is very mature, strong, clear headed, thoroughly insightful, more healed as a limerent; I have my faith and trust, so I’m not going to lose my sleep over this, so should you (you probably know him longer than me)! Your caring heart is always high appreciated.
I’m treating LO in the same fashion nowadays, and found a lot more room, peace and self-confidence in my head.
MJ says
Getting to this a few days later, but once again Sammy, you hit it out of the ballpark with this post..
Bravo.. 👏👏👏👏
Snowpheonix says
“In essence, what I’ve learned is that most human beings are extremely sensitive, including the males, especially the males. Most people are quite squeamish about sex, and laughter more often than not is a cover for embarrassment. “
In the West, sexiness, sexuality and sex are loudly shown, advocated, and “sold” in all kinds of public domains — movies, TVs, internet, concerts, magazines, books, theaters, sports events, beaches, billboards, night clubs, and other cultural venues, you name it! The majority seems to feel no embarrassment or protests against such a liberated and liberating culture!
When it comes to express one’s Eros to the beloved or besotted LO, one gets tongue tied as if one is going to confess a shameful act or a crime. Isn’t it pathetic? And it seems to be the only emotion that requires “courage” to reveal, as if such an act amounts to an adversity or a “battle”…. Is that 50% of chance to be rejected so devastating to one’s whole wellbeing? Why we have no hesitation to say “I hate that guy for…”, “I love that girl for…”
It’s hard for me to comprehend such a cultural (unnatural), psychological phenomenon, to which myself is also prone. Love or limerence, is not hate after all, why so “squeamish” about it? 🙃
Nisor says
Snow,
Let me jump in for a second, whatever you do , disclose or not , do it in good faith to your principles. What is your gut feeling about it? Follow it. One thing I need to bring out is that if you tell LO about limererence and “educate” him on it, he may visit this site and recognize your posts. Then you won’t be able to express your feelings openly as you do now. It’s a possibility.
All these discussions and secrecy about disclosure sounds as if plotting a murder, haha. ( the murder of limerence!)
I understand the west and the east , and even other countries in the west, have different ways of viewing and handling emotions. Therefore your confusion. Some countries in the west like southern parts of Europe, Latin America, are passionate people, less cooled heads, they act according to their passions…
Have a nice week. 💪🏽
Marcia says
Nisor,
“Some countries in the west like southern parts of Europe, Latin America, are passionate people, less cooled heads, they act according to their passions…”
I don’t know who you are referring to, but I would be very angry if another women confessed her feelings to my husband. The blood would be a boilin’ . 🙂
Snowpheonix says
@Marcia,
Whether you’re angry or at ease, others will behave according their passions o reasons, completely out of your control, then how are you going to copy with your anger and other emotions?
This is when Stoicism could have some use, in terms to managing one’s internal, controllable reactions over others external, uncontrollable actions. It’s a practice of logical thinking — “mental reprogramming” in Dr L’s terms.
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“then how are you going to copy with your anger and other emotions?”
This is the third party’s issue, who needs to figure out why they are trying to jam themselves into someone else’s relationship.
Of course, the bigger issue isn’t so much the third party as the fact that the spouse has possibly done enough to get this 3rd party to a point where they feel comfortable enough to disclose.
Snowphoenix says
Marcia,
“This is the third party’s issue, who needs to figure out why they are trying to jam themselves into someone else’s relationship.”
Are you trying to “control” what the third party should do? If she just doesn’t care, what are you going to do?
“Of course, the bigger issue isn’t so much the third party as the fact that the spouse has possibly done enough to get this 3rd party to a point where they feel comfortable enough to disclose.”
“Possibly done…”. If she’s a limerent from one of those hot Latin American or Southern European soil, she would probably disclose regardless the 2nd party’s behavior.
Regardless what happened between the spouse or 3rd party’s issue, a consequence of the FACT is the same: your anger! Will fault-finding takes away your hurt, clam you down, and keep your wellbeing intact? I’m thinking for your benefits, not those external offenders’ mental wellbeing.
Stoicism is about building an emotional shield for oneself, so when the outside world (people + the nature) purposefully (or accidentally) does something terrible to us, we are not hurt badly by REACTING to others’ uncontrollable follies. Why should we innocents feel so hurt, not them?
Check “the daily Stoic practice” I posted below. After getting that biggest panic attack triggered by LO’s (perceived) small, cruel act in 2019, I began to study and practice Stoicism — a mental tool to protect one from helpless reactions to others’ (un)intended “crimes”. The suffering of my limerence pushed me to explore various mental methods to prevent all future emotional and mental pains.
Limerence is totally opposite of Stoicism; the latter could beat up the former, while still allowing us to wisely and genuinely love LO as a person.
Marcia says
Snowphoenix,
“Stoicism is about building an emotional shield for oneself, so when the outside world”
I don’t really have anything else to add to this particular thread of the conversation.
Snowpheonix says
Nisor,
“Let me jump in for a second, whatever you do , disclose or not , do it in good faith to your principles. What is your gut feeling about it? Follow it. “
You and others would not want to know what my gut feeling about it now — breaking every moral code that I have never broken before! 😋 My gut changes everyday or every night.
I have been a passionate, unprofessional dancer since 5 (don’t play music in front of me), so I know and understand the flowing of hot blood , Qi, in those Latin Americans or Southern Europeans. When I argued with my granny at four, my hair would stand up, and I sensed heat shooting from my head to the sky….
Nowadays, I’m a stern-faced semi-Stoic and cool-headed semi-Buddhist, contemplating how to kill the “beast”, limerence.
“One thing I need to bring out is that if you tell LO about limererence and “educate” him on it, he may visit this site and recognize your posts. Then you won’t be able to express your feelings openly as you do now. It’s a possibility.”
I’ve thought of that. The material I would give LO to read will not include LwL information. Still, LO could google it and spot me out immediately.
This week is going to be interesting, with the planned
“tea and cake” in my office with LO to celebrate a folk holiday of my COO.
Have a good week yourself!
Snowpheonix says
Stoic daily exercises:
1. Meditation
2. Put yourself in perspective
3. Contemplation of the sage — who do you want to be, what’s your purpose in this life?
4. Negative visualization of other people and the immediate environment.
5. Be aware of your character all the time (check out your emotions and thoughts) — Neta thinking — name the emotions of thinking at that moment.
6. Indifference + acceptance- Amor Fati — “love your fate” which is in fact of your life.
7. Cognitive distancing — acknowledge and accept all emotions with equilibrium.
8. Empathetic understanding — of self and others.
9. Physical self-control training
10. Impermanence and acceptance — Memento Mori
11. Review the day (journaling) 3 times
12. Rest and relaxation (let go of the day, nothing you can do about it anymore.)
********
Today I might feel disappointed, lonely, depressed, angry, empty, jealousy, anxious, fearful, meaningless, insecure and panic.They are due to my emotional flashbacks. They may come but WILL always pass.
I am dying everyday, and will die at any given moment.
I will fail at whatever I do, and I’ll still try them at my best.
I might end up being alone for the rest of my life, and die alone.
The people I deal with today will be narcissistic, meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, deceitful, jealous, and surly.
I shall meet with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness. All of them are due to offenders’ ignorance of what’s good and evil.
Other people are plants and facts — you can’t change or control them, you may have some impact over them…
Choose not to be harmed, you won’t feel harmed
Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.
It’s foolish, unwise to try to escape other people’s faults, just try and escape your own.
There have to be shameless, unkind, ungrateful, insolent, disloyal, narcissistic people in the world. One in front of you might be just one of them. That a whole class must necessarily exist will enable you to tolerate its members.
Where you can go is more peaceful, more free of interruption than your own soul. Retreat to consult your own soul and then return to face what awaits you.
Is a world without pain possible? Then don’t ask the impossible!
“What is so unbearable about this situation?” “Why can’t you endure it?” You will be embarrassed to answer.
After death, there is no “us” to suffer harm.
You could leave life now. Let that determines what you do, say, and think.
Do everything as if it were the last thing you were doing in your life!
Snowpheonix says
5 unromantic tips for Falling in Love —
https://youtu.be/QzG_qtpEh7I?si=pktx9t6lK-_A0CG0
I wish I was taught of this at college.
Snowpheonix says
For those who have hard a time fall in sleep, here is a “rebellious” talk about (against) Romanticism that has permeated in almost every corner of the West…
https://youtu.be/sPOuIyEJnbE?si=vy9GK51u5vKrckh3
I’ve watched it twice before, understood how I was also affected by some Western literature and its dominant Roamnticism, and why I have made some regrettable mistakes that I did…
Our mind, with its cultured consciousness and the enigmatic unconscious, along with its uncontrollable biological drives, is powerful beyond our imaginations…
Bridgelover says
“I’m noticing what is better and worse about her versus me – not proud of that. Do others on lwl do that too?”
With LO1 I did it all the time for years, but I don’t any more. She and I are both just people, neither better nor worse, just different in some respects and similar in others like any two people.
With LO2’s first spouse, I was clearly better, and his current spouse is actually really similar to me, so in neither case did I feel the need to compare.
Snowpheonix says
@Bridgelover
A penny of thought here: “better and worse” are always subjective and relative….
When comparing oneself to anyone else, endless woes would be waiting for us….
☺️
Nisor says
Bridgelover hi,
I don’t catch myself comparing to LO’s SOs , because I think what lo saw in me was unique and unrepeatable, something he’ll never find in someone else. We’re are all unique masterpieces each worth its value for what it is.
Have a fruitful week.
Limerent Emeritus says
Nisor,
After LO #2 and I broke up, LO #2 insisted on updating me on my successor. I didn’t ask about him. To hear her talk, I beat him out in every category. When I asked her if what I offered her was available to her, why would she bust her ass to make things work with a guy who was cheating on her.
Her reply, “It’s one of those things that feels good in the night but leaves you cold in the morning.” She was paraphrasing U2’s, “I Still Haven’t Found What I’m Looking For” [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFcqnaJg4VE]. She liked “The Joshua Tree” and quoted several of the lyrics from songs on it to me.
When LO #2 sent me a FB friend request 10 years ago, I checked her out. She had a boyfriend, now her husband, and I checked him out. He could have been my clone.
– Same general build
– Same college degree
– Went to college 1 state away from where I went to college
– Same taste in music and literature
– In the Air Force during the same period that I was in the Navy
When I was scoping them out, I found a picture of them. It looked vaguely familiar. I dug around and found a picture of me that LO #2 had taken in front of a similar statue 25 years earlier.
I sent the photos and description to LO #4, a PsyD. This was very early in our acquaintance and things were strictly professional. I asked LO #4 if she thought that second photo was coincidence and if I was reading something into it that wasn’t there. LO #4 knew more about my relationship with LO #2 than my wife does.
LO #4 said that she didn’t think it was a coincidence. She said she thought LO #2 was channeling the 80s and I was driving her nuts. LO #4 said that her bet was to LO #2, I was The One That Got Away.
The TOTGA holds a special place in someone’s Pantheon of Exes.
TOTGA FTW!!!
Nisor says
Limerent Emeritus,
That song says a lot…. She’ll never forget you!
My song for LO would be:
“You’ll never find another love like mine”
Lou Rawls sings.
When I walked away from
LO, I never contacted him ever again neither knew his whereabouts or wive(s) or girlfriends. So I don’t know how they looked like. I contacted him 49 years later, last year, still no photos of him or SOs (for he had a few…) I’m not in any media channels or him either. So it’s all in our minds. I only see him in my mind
as he was then. Dammed fantasies!
Have a good day.
Beth 2 says
I’ve been following this thread and it’s interesting. I’ve went through a lot recently and am really struggling with my low contact and want to go to LO for emotional support. Many comments here have been helping me come to my senses, particularly Marsha’s.
For anyone thinking of disclosing, please remember that when limerent your mind often tricks you into doing whatever it takes to be close to LO and get their reciprocation. Also talking over and over about it to others or reading about it too much can keep the LE going. I realized reading too much here or other places about limerence keeps me thinking about LO so I need to cut back again.
I did disclose and it was awful and humiliating actually. He claimed he knew anyway. We both have SOs and everyone said don’t do it by I did. Even today I am fighting the urge to contact him and explain what was really going on with me 4 years ago but no. If I’m honest with myself I still have a tiny sliver of hope that he would admit he really did reciprocate. I don’t want to ever cross that line again. Thats not who I want to be. What good would it really do anyway?
The past year I have been low contact. He has called me several times so who knows why? I think that’s where my sliver of hope comes from. I think many of our LOs do care and we, at least I, imagined it to be way more than what it was. I’m still in the danger zone as I can quickly relapse. We also think they are so much better than what any human could be.
For a while I coped by blaming my LO but all that did was make me angry and by reading here and other places it’s something in me that keeps it going and was susceptible to it. I also deal with guilt and shame because of disclosure and everything else.
I totally agree with Dr L and what Sammy said about disclosure. Along with limerence comes a heaping dose of cognitive dissonance. I think limerence is an almost altered mental state and you cannot trust yourself to do the right thing with LO. We have them on such a pedestal nobody could live up to that. Anyway thankful for this site. It has really helped me. I don’t want another LE and am hopeful to completely recover from this one. 4 years ago my mind was consumed by LO. That is much less now with low contact. I also have learned it’s a battle. If thoughts of LO come into my mind, I can choose to think of something else or do another activity. That didn’t work early in the LE but does now. Does anyone else have suggestions on how you resist getting pulled in again?
Still working on why I get limerence. The best strategy I have is if I feel the glimmer to run the other direction. Also, I’m trying to build a purposeful life and more connections as well as my faith. Thanks for listening.
Adam says
Beth
” I realized reading too much here or other places about limerence keeps me thinking about LO so I need to cut back again.”
I find this the two sides to the coin of this community. I have to try and post from a clinical stance if I see someone new post a comment here. Dwell on it from the standpoint that Dr L does, rather than revel in my own personal limerence account. Because you are right, it just fuels the flames of limerence to talk or read about it. So I have been cutting back on my posting as well. Or sometimes just coming in to bs with folks here and stay out of the limerent blog posts.
“Does anyone else have suggestions on how you resist getting pulled in again?”
One suggestion I can say is if limerence starts to seep in; move! Really just move. When you have to move your motor functions take precedent in you head. If I found my mind wondering to her while working I would get out of desk and walk over to the warehouse. Or pace in the office. It works most times back then when I was really in the thick of it. I think I read that here on Dr. L’s blog.
I also enjoy playing an online video game with our youngest son for a few hours an evening, each day. It takes my mind to more important things like having fun with my son, or being more conscious of the present and not dwelling on the past. Lots of evenings I will sit with/by my wife and watch a movie or show before I go to sleep. Keeps my mind occupied and not wandering.
Beth 2 says
Thanks, Adam. I like the idea of keeping it clinical when posting. Also thanks for the suggestion of moving. My therapist recently told me 10 minutes of movement resets the brain so if struggling with emotions get up and move. I’ve been trying to move more so this just reinforces the need to that. Hope you are doing well. Day by day minute by minute.
ABCD says
@Beth2: You are on the right track. Coping with LE is an ongoing process. What I have experienced is that NC/LC works the best in controlling the ruminations. However, whenever there is contact, I tend to get derailed again, so its a couple of steps backward. Be kind to yourself if this happens, and try to avoid contact as much as possible – easier said than done, right? Try to do something that can distract you from LO thoughts – that can help a lot. Wish you the very best.
Beth 2 says
Thank you ABCD. LC/NC is helping. Yes being kind to ourselves is hard especially when we know we messed up. Any kind of contact has derailed me as well. I wish I could go back and never have worked for him. I had the thought it would be difficult because he was so flirty with women and almost quit then but then my SO told me not to worry about it after I expressed my concerns. But I am still responsible for it. It happened so quickly after he became my supervisor. Now I feel sick when I think of it. I totally underestimated how quickly and deeply one can get into limerence. It is truly playing with fire. It was like something took over my rational brain.
When I look back there were a series of choices that drove me deeper into it. The only positive thing about my disclosure was that he backed off from anything personal conversation wise (for quite awhile). It took me a long time to heal and undo the emotional dependence. I feel lucky because I really could have gotten in a worse mess than I was.
After all this I feel that for myself limerence is a way to fill a void or meet some need. Some speaker on limerence said to go back through your life and write down every LE and what was going on in your life at the time. Every time for me there was some loss or major change etc. I didn’t know limerence was a thing until this LE. Now that I know I really have to set strong boundaries for myself. I’m also rebuilding my faith an and trusting Jesus to help me. Right now I’m very vulnerable as I just lost my dad. I just lost my mom prior to this LE. Now I need to go back and read about building a purposeful life.
Sorry for the book. It helps me to journal.
ABCD says
@Beth2.
Yes, I also read somewhere about a direct correlation between a major life upheaval and an LE. Hopefully, when things start to stabilise somewhat, the LE intensity will also reduce. As other members have said, the LE needs to run its course. How we manage it becomes pretty critical. Purposeful living is definitely the way to go. Wish you the best.
Adam says
I got a question. If your relationship died, literally, not divorce, would you feel the need to remarry? Id think Id stay lonely unless an angel just dropped in my lap. And than Id still be suspicious.
MJ says
If I may interject, I don’t think I would remarry. At least not like I did the first time. My wedding was a huge event. Mega Catholic, 500+ people. The wedding she always dreamed of. A wedding fit for a Princess. It can’t be re-created or done over again. I feel that was a once in a lifetime experience, reserved only for her. Which is another reason I am often sad for ruining it.
My last SO and I discussed marriage at one point, but not it being the 2 of “us” actually getting married.
I cringed at the thought of it because she wanted a Princess wedding. Never again I thought.
She deserved it though, just not from me..
Adam says
Thats the opposite of us. Momma and I met online in 1998. When that was very uncommon. Neither of our parents believed in us. Both rhought we were crazy. So we got married in a court house in St. Louis where I lived (she lived in western Oklahoma when I brought her to me) and was witnessed by a co-worker and her gentleman friend. Quite the opposite. How things are differrent.
MJ says
That’s really cool. I’ve thought if I ever do remarry again, I want it to be weird and different. Like rent a convertible Mustang and drive all the way to Vegas with the top down and the marry her at one of those ridiculous little chapels.
I’d love it if LO would ever want something like that..
Adam says
Funny thing is I had a huge crush on her. And even sing it when he’d come to see her. She and I worked together. They didnt get the context. Jessie’s Girl. Neither got the reference. But Ill be damed if I wasnt hell of jealous.
Limerent Emeritus says
Adam,
“If your relationship died, literally, not divorce, would you feel the need to remarry?”
“When you’ve had the best, who needs the rest?” – Betty White, on her late husband, Allen Ludden, in a 2014 interview
My uncle died in 1974. He and my aunt had been married 26 years. My wife and I were talking to her in the mid-90s and she expressed the exact same sentiment about him, in those words. She never remarried and she never had a “gentleman friend” that I was aware of. She and my father would go to high school reunions together.
My wife and I had a similar discussion and she said she felt that way. I told her that being married to her had shown me how much the right person can add to your life and I might want that, again. I might want the companionship. Marriage is as much a legal contract as it is a social and/or religious contract. It might or might not include marriage.
On the other side of that coin, we had a neighbor who’d lost her husband on D-Day. She had a “gentleman friend” for decades. He was a widower. They never married or lived together but they didn’t need to. It was obvious that they loved each other.
My wife and I are going on 35 years and I’m beginning to come around to the idea that maybe I might not want Option 2.
IDK
Marcia says
A greater percentage of men than women remarry after divorce or widowhood and they remarry more quickly than women.
Adam says
Is there nothing more beautiful than sitting beside her side, arms wrapped around her legs, head nestled to her thighs while I sit by the couch while she sleeps half assed drunk looking at her face while watching a really bad sci-fi movie and realizing “wow this woman really puts up with my shit” lol. Im a lucky man. Id climb up in the loveseat if there was room for me.
Ghost Rider is a good movie. And while I grew up reading Danny Ketch as GR I think Jonny Blaze performance by Nicolas Cage was good. *ducks*
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
Sorry for my late reply. Oh dear, it does seem like a little bit of drama may have transpired in my absence! That really wasn’t my intention!! 😲 Now I understand why some people choose to stay away from debates in general. because no matter how debates play out, it’s impossible to please everybody!! 🙄😆
Snowphoenix, I’m not bothered by your views at all, so there’s no need for your mood to be black, or any other colour. Trust me, I totally understand the desire to win debates at any cost, especially while one is in limerence, or otherwise feeling insecure. I remember well the same “fight-or-flight” energy state, if you like. For a few years, in my 20s, I was probably one of the most obnoxious human beings alive. (I’m not saying you’re obnoxious. I’m only saying my “desire to win” at a particular point in my life made me … less-than-agreeable, shall we say?) 😉
I derive a lot of pleasure from your posts. I think you’re very intelligent and funny and endearing and all those literary references are a delight. (That’s why I brought up Shakespeare. Thought you might enjoy a gratuitous literary reference. What erudite soul wouldn’t appreciate “discretion” and “valour” in the same sentence?). I feel every poster brings their own “gifts” to the table, and I feel the gifts you bring are considerable. You’ve certainly livened up the joint, and I assume that was what the coffeehouse was for … a bit of liveliness? 😜
I’m awfully flattered you’re capable of imagining me as a grumpy father-figure waving a big moral stick around. If only! I find that image highly entertaining! 😁
I think, in limerence, we are sort of want a moral authority or a straw man to argue with, don’t we? Sometimes, a little bit of opposition helps one think more clearly. Please rest assured that any opposition I provide is strictly playful in nature. I’m just a world-weary old lion gently wrestling with the restless younger lions in the pride. The younger lions can’t hurt me, and if they do, it’s doesn’t matter, because I’m old. Old lions have thick skin and their egos are no longer so easily bruised. And I can’t hurt the younger lions, because I’m only wrestling for fun. I’m not interested in establishing any sort of hierarchy. I gave up my crown long ago. 😉
I think you’re a little cross at me that maybe I accidentally argued one or two points better than you? (See, I told you my brain was good at debating). But let’s not let any tiny victory of mine come between us in terms of shared goodwill. I’m sure you have argued scores of points much better than I have! I don’t mind. I play to have fun and enjoy myself and socialise with others and not to win. 😉
Perhaps, in my last post, I was feeling more impatient than usual. So if you detected a note of sharpness in my voice, that might have been the reason… When I argue, I’m not really arguing with you. I’m arguing with myself mostly. I.e. what do I want? I’m trying to lay out the facts as clearly as possible, so then I can make the best choice. You’re right to say that limerence isn’t a choice. But choosing what to do (or what not to do) about limerence presumably is a choice? 😉
I think, Snowphoenix, that if limerence is something you find you can enjoy without too much pain – due in large part to your meditations or your stoicism or your heightened self-awareness- then that’s great. I only have a problem with limerence because I wasn’t the person I wanted to be while limerent. (I seemed to have a real problem with jealousy, and struggled to be happy for others when they were in a happy romantic relationship, for example. I thought I was missing out on one of life’s great pleasures. I didn’t like feeling so envious all the time. Now I can see a couple canoodling in the shopping centre and feel happy for them). 😉
I only talk about “not making people uncomfortable” because that’s something some very happy, successful, well-adjusted people once told me while I was going through great personal difficulties. (I rejected their advice, btw. Like you, I am no stranger to rebellion). 😆
It would seem that most of the human population is quite conservative, and even the most brilliant debating minds in the world won’t change that. Sometimes, true liberation lies in letting others remain conservative. The funny thing about limerents is limerents seem to need the whole world to believe in their infatuation as earnestly as they do! Do not you find this a little strange? It’s almost as if: “My infatuation doesn’t exist if I’m not taking it on promotional tours with me!” 😜
On the other hand, passion is admirable. Emotion is admirable. Wanting to get to the truth of the matter is admirable – as long as one is intellectually honest and willing to admit one erred if one did err. There’s no shame in making little mistakes or middle-sized mistakes or even big mistakes, if one can learn from all those mistakes. A great scientist doesn’t defend his initial hypothesis to the end, in the face of contrary evidence. A great scientist adjusts his hypothesis if he realises he made a boo-boo. He doesn’t deny/hide his boo-boo out of shame. 🤔
I love the feminist Germaine Greer, for example. Greer is one of the greatest minds Australia has ever produced. She’s an amazing writer and an amazing woman. I’ve got nothing bad to say about her. But quite early on in her career she got one or two very minor points wrong in terms of her reasoning, and it really damaged her legacy long-term because she couldn’t detect and fix her own mistakes – mistakes which in no way cast doubt on her huge talent or her integrity.
Here’s a question for you: if you found out your LE meant absolutely nothing to your LO, would it still mean something to you? And would it still be pleasurable for you? Tennov seemed to think that the thing that separates limerent fantasy from ordinary fantasy is that limerence must exist in the realm of the possible.
I don’t find all your arguments faulty. Not by a long shot. Believe it or not, I am intensely sympathetic to most of the things you say. I think, for instance, you’re right to champion the Dionysian side of life. In human nature, the Apollonian and the Dionysian always sit in a somewhat uneasy relation to each other. (Hence, society’s very confused reaction to artists such as Prince, Madonna, etc).
I struggle with the Dionysian, to be honest. The Dionysian isn’t my strong suit. I struggle with the Dionysian in myself. I struggle with the Dionysian in other people. I don’t think I’m necessarily right to exalt the Apollonian over the Dionysian, although that is the way (apparently) of Western culture. I think if I found a way to embrace the Dionysian, I might enjoy slightly better connections with other people. Actually, I’m working on that. I’m trying to “stand out less in a crowd”. I’m trying to embrace my sensual side, and be relaxed with the sensuality that other people may exude. It’s all a question of perspective, really. 😜
If we can briefly go back to gender relations: what I find most touching about women (even women on LwL) is that women often don’t care about right or wrong in a debate. Women (stereotypically) just want nobody’s feelings to get hurt and for everyone to feel loved and included. What I find admirable about men (and masculine women) is that there is often a relentless commitment to truth, and figuring out right and wrong, even if people’s feelings get hurt in the process. In life, I’ve ironically aligned myself more often than not with masculine values than feminine values. However, as I age, I see the incredible beauty and wisdom in feminine values. I see that prioritising the comfort level of other people isn’t such a bad idea… So, you see, I’m on my own journey toward enlightenment. 🤔
We live in a world where one is no longer allowed to tell other people that something is moral or immoral. Traditionally, it’s a man’s job to “lay down the law” and play authority figure. Male authority figures seem to be a dying breed, and female authority figures aren’t rising up to replace them. Western culture exists in a moral vacuum. However, the funny thing is, most people still make harsh moral judgements of other people in the privacy of their own minds. So, unfortunately, “morality” isn’t something we can all just forget about…
It can be good to run one’s limerence-inspired thoughts passed other people i.e. trusted friends, as a kind of “reality check”. If one’s friends don’t automatically agree with one, that doesn’t mean those friends are malicious or prejudiced, or “not real friends”. The ability to “agree to disagree” in a loving manner I think is the greatest proof of friendship.
People can disagree about all sorts of things in life, and still love and respect each other. Limerents typically get so caught up in emotion they forget that others are not acting in a malicious or prejudiced manner toward them when disagreement occurs. When my sister was limerent, for example, I argued with her about the truth of some of the things she was saying, and, yes, unfortunately, I did make her cry. However, never for a second did I ever feel anything but love and concern and high regard for my sister. (My sister is a very endearing person. And when she was deep in the throes of lovesickness, she was even more endearing than usual). 😉
I don’t see myself as a role model or a moral crusader or anything like that. My first LO was both unavailable and eventually taken. My second LO was both unavailable and eventually taken. All subsequent crushes have been single but unavailable. I’m just really good at picking stunningly beautiful people who don’t want me!! And yet some of these stunningly beautiful people leave crumbs out! I’m beginning to feel like a pigeon. All I ever get is … crumbs, crumbs, crumbs. 🤣
In sum, Snowphoenix, I think you’re a wonderful human being and you’ve raised some really good points. Since you’ve been so candid and generous with me, I’ll be candid and generous with you. I don’t think limerence ever really ends. However, I think one can reach a point where one’s limerence for a particular individual can no longer cause one intense pain … which is actually a strikingly similar point of view to the one you’ve been advocating, no? See, maybe we are on the same page, after all! We’ve been using different words to say the exact same thing. 🤣👍😇
I had a dream about my very first LO last night. In the dream, we were platonic housemates, renting a place together. And I was performing some mundane household chore, and doing a really bad job. My LO stopped by the same room as me, and noticed I was doing a really bad job. But he wasn’t angry at me for doing a bad job. He didn’t berate me, or try to induce a shame reaction in me. Instead, he just stood there and smiled.
In other words, my LO in the dream was amused that I was doing such a terrible job and in that moment I felt really loved. A feeling of warmth washed over me. I felt accepted. I felt safe. So, I think my LO (dream figure LO) is just a part of my own psyche and I can’t get rid of him, and I shouldn’t try to get rid of him. On some deep level, he IS me. He’s the patient, forgiving, tolerant version of me. Maybe he represents me at the best, and the person I actually want to be? 🙂
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy,
“Oh dear, it does seem like a little bit of drama may have transpired in my absence! That really wasn’t my intention!! “
If you disappear for 2 days, LwL would have Magnitude 3 earthquake! No worries! As I reasoned to Mila, I am not worried (unlike this before with LO), anything is possible, understandable and acceptable. I’m intensifying the training of my semi-Stoic mind. 💪
“no matter how debates play out, it’s impossible to please everybody!! “
Debates are designed to view an elephant from different sides, to expand beyond one’s limited perspectives and conceptions, understand “the beast” better, possibly resolve some misunderstandings. Debates are for exploring truths, not for pleasing audiences. 🗣️
“Trust me, I totally understand the desire to win debates at any cost, especially while one is in limerence, or otherwise feeling insecure. “
I was not trying to “win” debates, but felt attacked on two issues: a possible discourse and my stand on one’s responsibility for others’ SO. They were/are ideations in my head, never been actualized even once in my life; but they were attacked harshly though indirectly in this supposedly open forum — NOT an “Echo Chamber” In my habitual fantasies, the “attack” sounded and looked like a Holy Crusade in 21st century, led by one faithful Christian in the Pacific 😳
“(That’s why I brought up Shakespeare. Thought you might enjoy a gratuitous literary reference. What erudite soul wouldn’t appreciate “discretion” and “valour” in the same sentence?). “
I enjoyed your posts tremendously because of their rich literary references — my most favorite topics that I’m continuously learning about and from (I gave up my engineering training for any kind of much higher paid IT careers). However, there are two words (for now, I’ll tell you more when they come up) that bother/trigger my previously censored and repressed COO mind: “morality” and “authority”. For these two words, thousands of people have lost their physical lives — I am not kidding here! That’s why I don’t subscribe to any “new” ideologies in this “new” land, but trying to adopt a liberal mind, that sometimes is also a bit over PC. 😵💫
“I feel every poster brings their own “gifts” to the table, and I feel the gifts you bring are considerable. You’ve certainly livened up the joint, and I assume that was what the coffeehouse was for … a bit of liveliness? “
Thank you for your compliment here. One of best joys/exhilarations of limerence is “liveliness” it brings to a single limerent’s life; without it, who wants to stay in limerence? And once having it, who wants to lose it!? If one can’t limerent and express it freely in reality, coffee-house in LwL should be and would be the only place to go! 🏩
“I’m awfully flattered you’re capable of imagining me as a grumpy father-figure waving a big moral stick around. If only! I find that image highly entertaining!”
Ney, I don’t believe you here. You’re just saying it to humor me. 🧐 My idealized father figure is wise, knowledgeable, kind, gentle, positive, patient, understanding, humorous, able to indulge or spoil my idiotic quirks and take my sporadic verbal hammers on his affectionate head… ⛏️
“I think, in limerence, we are sort of want a moral authority or a straw man to argue with, don’t we? Sometimes, a little bit of opposition helps one think more clearly.”
Before LwL, I already berated myself to no end for this “unknown” thingy that stirred up my life inside out for 6 years (huge glimmer rarely came to my way, small ones were easy to dismiss). By reading some of posters, I’ve learned and accepted that everyone’s limerence is different, since situations vary vastly. I tend not to “argue” in anyone’s case, because I lacked their unique felt experiences. So when mine (not as painful by comparison) were opposed by your firmly pessimistic views on limerence, it felt being invalidated. 😮💨
“I’m just a world-weary old lion gently wrestling with the restless younger lions in the pride. “
Why do you assume I’m a “younger lion in the pride? “ Do I sound that much immature? 😉
“Please rest assured that any opposition I provide is strictly playful in nature. “
It’s hard to believe that some posts were playful, since so many of them were about your past experiences, sounded so dark and so painful that I could not help paint a darkened, disheartened world in your reality — imagination goes wild in all directions, sometimes heavenly while other times catastrophic, but they are always unrealistic. I’ve been habitually preparing for all possible worsts, just in case a worst does strike at any given time. My father taught me this practice since youth. 💙
“I think you’re a little cross at me that maybe I accidentally argued one or two points better than you?”
I think it’s more that my emotions were triggered by my old traumas, one of which was forgotten all my life but remembered a day after your poster — the argument in CHANTING format. I vaguely remembered that my weekcare teacher was chanting her criticism on me in front of all other kids, because I refused to eat Pork Fat, hid ACF (already chewed food) in my hands, and attempted to throw them away later. But my act was found and reported by another boy for an “attempt to waste food”. So this teacher made me stand in the center of the room, chanting something like, “Food is precious… Food is from sweat of farmers… Food is…. Food is…. “ I remember heat was shouting up from my head. Then, she forced me to swallow ACF in my fist, in front of everyone… as I exited the lunch room as the last kid, I vomited my stomach out! Until this day, I still feel extremely nausea to see Pork Fat on a table. 🤮
The other triggered trauma(by reiterations) was the reminder of those suffering Asperger kids, I still cannot bear recalling their despairing eyes and cries… It just hurts. 😭
“But let’s not let any tiny victory of mine come between us in terms of shared goodwill.”
I don’t mind “winning” or “losing” in debates, who wants “echo puppies” in debates (that was somewhat of my SO)? ! What to learn then? I’ve learned a great deal insights from your posts and my responses to them, which helped clear a lot of my muddled limerence mind — I’ve repeated this point many times while chatting with others here. 😙
I always enjoy learning something new —curiosity is my biggest asset since very young, which contributes to a perhaps “annoying” fact that I wish to learn more about flawed LO, although he constantly doubted my intentions, rejected my attempt for an “inauthentic friendship”, and unintentionally hurt me. Everyone is an art in making and continues evolving and revealing, which makes my small, and often boring life more attractive. 💃🏻
“When I argue, I’m not really arguing with you. I’m arguing with myself mostly. “
The same here. I edit them intensely trying to figure out whether it’s true to me first, and what points they would bring out, clear or confusing or misleading… a lot of indecisiveness and adding/cutting involved. 🖋️
“You’re right to say that limerence isn’t a choice. But choosing what to do (or what not to do) about limerence presumably is a choice? “
Yes, once one knows about limerence’s nature, it’s one’s CHOICE how to deal with it. Because my rebellious nature that is even against my own decisions, nowadays, I take things to a more gray area, let them unfold naturally. Also, as I said in the new blog, with my specific effective physical and spiritual methods, my semi-Stoic and Buddhistic thinking, my limerence has little negative effect left. I can deal with unknowns and uncertainties in general so much better than 3 months ago. I enjoy what I have, and wish (not crave) some intangible stuff that I don’t have, eg. solid authentic friendships with similar mentality, sensitivity, sensibility, vulnerability, and other humanities…
“I only have a problem with limerence because I wasn’t the person I wanted to be while limerent.”
I’m almost opposite on this. Limerence has brought out some of my better selfs: more alive, creative, positive, courageous, eager to learn about unknowns and self-growth, socializing and caring for others, interested in previously-“dull” matters. LO does not have all those traits although initially coming across like a scholarly “bishop/Jesus”. Under my altered mental state, I was inspired to be better than my old self, in DrL’s words, to impress LO. Beforehand limerence, I had almost no jealousy or envy issues or worries about missing out — many worldly fun did not interested me, but I would smile at those “canoodling” couples. My only jealousy came up after 4 years of LE when spotting LO glimmering at his pet LO, of which I wished so much to be spared…. 😔
“I only talk about “not making people uncomfortable” because that’s something some very happy, successful, well-adjusted people once told me while I was going through great personal difficulties.”
Comfort or discomfort is always associate with cultural conditioning and individual’s specific experiences. The principle of the mean — Moderation in all things, or “a middle way” is really hard to practice in this regard. One has to discern in what situation and to which person, one can be somewhat mentally naked. I just don’t think a blanket generalization can be made in this arena. For instance, two authentic individuals wanting to make an authentic friendship, they will have to overcome some ‘“embarrassment” thresholds to show their truthful, evolving insides and then possibly reach their shared goal— there is no guarantee regardless their efforts. It would be so liberating to break social and cultural taboos from time to time, not ALWAYS, and just to EXPRESS oneself — not committing an action crime.
“It would seem that most of the human population is quite conservative, and even the most brilliant debating minds in the world won’t change that. “
It’s true. But you’re generalizing here again, are we, you and me, dealing with the population as a concept, or some specific individuals that happened to be our LOs or individuals we know around us? 👨👨👧👧
“Sometimes, true liberation lies in letting others remain conservative.”
In theory, it’s true. I don’t make friends or limerent for conservatives sensed by my intuitions and magnetic field. My LOs and friends were liberals, non-religious, and some helpless playboys… or hypocrites pretending conservatives. 🫤
“The funny thing about limerents is limerents seem to need the whole world to believe in their infatuation as earnestly as they do! Do not you find this a little strange? It’s almost as if: “My infatuation doesn’t exist if I’m not taking it on promotional tours with me!”
Not in my case yet. I was only here for 3 months, and beforehand, I was desperately hiding it even from my two previous therapists. Embarrassment for its occurrence and uncontrollability berated me to no end. Only while debating with you, I seemed to want to prove that limerence has its brighter sides because you tended to focus intensely on its darker sides. 😩
“On the other hand, passion is admirable. Emotion is admirable.”
By comparison with other limerence cases posted here, I wonder what size (1-10) my craving lied in my limerence. I felt it was like 4-6, now 1-3, due to the barrier and LO’s outright rejections (but he kept changing, very evasive). I suffered a lot of cptsd dysregulations that were always there in my life even when limerence was completely absent. As we discussed before, my limerence, perhaps yours, also lied in the desire/passion ITSELF, not in the desired/LO. I cherished my Eros-related emotions (didn’t realize it was there for the 1st 4 years), that did not come around easily. 💘
“Wanting to get to the truth of the matter is admirable – as long as one is intellectually honest and willing to admit one erred if one did err. There’s no shame in making little mistakes or middle-sized mistakes or even big mistakes, if one can learn from all those mistakes.”
My life-pursuit to get to the truth alienated many of my friends and acquaintance; they just couldn’t understand my stubborn curiosity, which a lot of times had to do with restlessness — extra, uncirculated physical energy. I used to hate admitting mistakes, nowadays, not so much, especially with trustworthy, less-egotistical friends, such as LO #5.
“I love the feminist Germaine Greer, for example. Greer is one of the greatest minds Australia has ever produced. “
This is the first time I heard her name, I’ll do some research on her brilliant mind. Simone de Beauvoir is still my top favorite, along with several female writers of last 2 centuries.
“Here’s a question for you: if you found out your LE meant absolutely nothing to your LO, would it still mean something to you?”
Probably not. If it still means something to me, that would mean I’m in love with the passion itself, but I strongly doubt it will last long without a targeted physical form. Again, I agree intuitively that Glimmer has a lot to do with genomic/genetic instinct, which can be attracted only by a fleshy human being not an abstract concept.
“And would it still be pleasurable for you? Tennov seemed to think that the thing that separates limerent fantasy from ordinary fantasy is that limerence must exist in the realm of the possible.”
It would not. Platonic LO #1 has long gone, the memory brings me some deep satisfaction and Agape, but not a bit of limerence kind of pleasure. He can no long inspire my mind or ease my mental stress; my current limerence still can. I agree with Tennov on this point; if absolutely impossible, limerent fantasy would die soon or later, I think it depends on degrees of brain’s neurochemical imbalance. 🧠
“you’re right to champion the Dionysian side of life. In human nature, the Apollonian and the Dionysian always sit in a somewhat uneasy relation to each other. (Hence, society’s very confused reaction to artists such as Prince, Madonna, etc).”
I “champion the Dionysian” spirit is because it was so demonized and absent in my COO that almost everyone either denied it in the living room or “malfunctioned“ in the bedroom out of shame. Only after coming to the West, I heard for the first time about Dionysus and Apollo. 🍷📕
I was so habitually inhabited in general that I could never go liberal as Prince (not his fan, but Queen’s fan) or Madonna (picking her up again lately, loved her energy) dares to reach, even if you pay me $1 million. My whole system probably would repulse making me vomit. After the divorce, Father used to ask me, “why can’t you go out “more freely” — meaning sleeping around?” I answered, “I can’t even date two guys at the same time. I have to dismiss one then start another.” So many “five-second” first dates without any following up. 🧑
It takes a long while, with Greek mythology, other forms of the culture, particularly literature, and spiritual practices (body energy works), for me to eventually free my inner Dionysus and strengthen Apollo. I think I can balance them; the latter is still holding an upper hand, though.
But I also learned with some confusions that despite of my ignorance of Dionysus in me; others (including dogs and horses) seemed to see much more of HIM in me since my teen time; thus unwanted attentions tailed along my existence, along with my indiagonized cptsd and limerence.
“I’m trying to embrace my sensual side, and be relaxed with the sensuality that other people may exude. It’s all a question of perspective, really. “
Please DO so! This gift is bestowed by the nature; no religion or ideology can shame its rightful beauty and beneficial potency to our physical and mental health. It makes one more humanistic and lovable, as long as it is with loving aims.
“women often don’t care about right or wrong in a debate. Women (stereotypically) just want nobody’s feelings to get hurt and for everyone to feel loved and included. “
Not Snowpheonix, who cares more about truths, even ugly ones. Without a good mother modeling while growing up, I have few stereotypical feminine traits. It’s not that I do not care, I just do not know how to show or verbalize it without “superficially” soothing or comforting words — no one uttered them to me and gave me trustworthy, supportive hugs. Father trained me to “combat” with boys in brain.
“What I find admirable about men (and masculine women) is that there is often a relentless commitment to truth, and figuring out right and wrong, even if people’s feelings get hurt in the process.”
That’s Snowphoenix! I tend to think those who are easily get emotionally hurt are weak. If I got hurt, I just hid it; we were all taught this way while growing up in COO. It’s so inhuman! For this reason, I hardly cried. But I cried easily for book or screen characters, for music, for suffering children, for some concepts.
“I see the incredible beauty and wisdom in feminine values. I see that prioritising the comfort level of other people isn’t such a bad idea… So, you see, I’m on my own journey toward enlightenment. “
I have begun to see the beauty of feminine values, too. I am longing for or dying for feminine soothing energy but still feel very uncomfortable when others try to “mother” me. I reason that my mother’s extremely harsh presence still intrudes when the feminine energy was approaching me. I was trained a tomboy ready to wrestle with macho masculine energy.
“We live in a world where one is no longer allowed to tell other people that something is moral or immoral. Traditionally, it’s a man’s job to “lay down the law” and play authority figure. “
That’s how your previous post sounded like; so I had to ⚔️ as you can see!
“Male authority figures seem to be a dying breed, and female authority figures aren’t rising up to replace them. Western culture exists in a moral vacuum.”
I agree with your insight here. But I just do not like the word “authority”. Each person, men or women, really needs to take independent charge of their own education, mantle health , and self growth, within their given system. Relying on some authority or others tends to lead a nature towards authoritarian regime like China, Russia, or North Korea.
“However, the funny thing is, most people still make harsh moral judgements of other people in the privacy of their own minds. So, unfortunately, “morality” isn’t something we can all just forget about…”
I can’t break into or shake others’ minds but could ignore them, not letting them affect my private, grounded life! With a limited time on earth, it’s so unwise to blindly follow or care about some traditional convictions or out-dated moralities. However, a high price to pay for a more “liberated” living is to lead a lone-wolf life style, which is much easier in our modern era.
“It can be good to run one’s limerence-inspired thoughts passed other people i.e. trusted friends, as a kind of “reality check”. If one’s friends don’t automatically agree with one, that doesn’t mean those friends are malicious or prejudiced, or “not real friends”. The ability to “agree to disagree” in a loving manner I think is the greatest proof of friendship.”
Totally agree. I am relying on your “ghostly” negative or refuting feedback, which also push me to examine harder and deeper within myself. For reasons, my catastrophes are always that people would dislike and abandon me once they find out I’m so stubbornly disagreeable, refuting or disobeying their mind; which had already occurred repeatedly in the past. So once I fired my guns, I took a leave first, so as to spear the pain of being left or abandoned later. My LO #4.5 (a therapist, not mine) said to me, “a lot of men will be sacred of your mental and physical power, try to find men who like you more than you them”. But I still fell into limerences in which I had more affections for them. Poor me!
“Limerents typically get so caught up in emotion they forget that others are not acting in a malicious or prejudiced manner toward them when disagreement occurs.”
As mentioned above, there is also a tendency for me to catastrophize as a result of my cptsd — I’ve been automatically preparing for the worst to happen in the future, although that preparation discourages or scares myself so much. Sometimes I see myself as an over-cautious or frightened porcupine with its perked up stings, ready to spin. 🦔
Hmm… I wonder if you still have room to adopt another firebird sister, who often soars alone in the air, fearing to land? 🧚♀️
“I don’t see myself as a role model or a moral crusader or anything like that“
Maybe YOU as a person are not; but your post sounded like one with chanting. 🎶
“And yet some of these stunningly beautiful people leave crumbs out! I’m beginning to feel like a pigeon. All I ever get is … crumbs, crumbs, crumbs. “
That what LO #5, 6, and 7 did to me. The last LO’s “mystification’ in April was literally translated like: “Why would you want to put up with me if I gave you so little relationship crumbs? I’m just mystified….” Superficially, I answered: “because monologuing to the Phantom helped me ease the pain of losing Father and make up an ideal childhood I never had…” But deep down, I could not answer his mystification, which instigated my whole summer’s research and found Limerence as the answer! 😫
“I don’t think limerence ever really ends. However, I think one can reach a point where one’s limerence for a particular individual can no longer cause one intense pain … which is actually a strikingly similar point of view to the one you’ve been advocating, no? See, maybe we are on the same page, after all! We’ve been using different words to say the exact same thing. “
Yes, my primary point is that with some realistic, physical or spiritual coping mechanism, limerence will gradually loosen up, not as intense as in its peak. Craving could be reduced from 10 to 1-3 in degree. We don’t have to beat it up it out of its last breath, we could live peacefully with it, and even channel its creative power. 🪫
“Maybe he represents me at the best, and the person I actually want to be? “
As we discussed before, LO would always have something we long for yet lack inside us, so we are so gravitated toward them, unconsciously wishing somehow we could obtain those wonderful traits inside us, at least benefit them by being around LOs. If limerent positively, we would be inspired to acquire those marvelous traits by learning from LOs and self-developing. LO gives us a clear glimpse at our deep wishes within us and then hopefully inspire us to cultivate what we desire to be! 🧘🧘♀️ 🤳
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy Mommy,
“However, the funny thing is, most people still make harsh moral judgements of other people in the privacy of their own minds. So, unfortunately, “morality” isn’t something we can all just forget about…”
That’s strictly opposite of Stoicism! It’s absolutely foolish wish to “control” others’ mind and emotion, which is just as Impossible as climbing to the Moon on your feet! It will endless worries and woes to one’s life. Yes, one can just FORGET about what others might think!!
I used to be like that: I didn’’t want to them (especially LOs) to think me this way or that way, and tried to say or do things I deemed that they’d like. But little I knew how much futile efforts I’ve wasted! I twisted my own nature and convictions in order to follow all the “rules”, others still gossiped about me or stared at me with a weird look, making me think I was just wrong no matter what I could do!
I still have a bit leftover of this types of concerns, but after 4 years of practices of Stoicism, I’m getting better in putting my better, honest self out there in socializing, what they might think or feel is ENTIRELY their business.
A typo in my pervious message: it should be: “others tends to lead a nation towards authoritarian….” Add: insecurity or dis-ease of being alone, and strong wish to conform can lead one into some forms of Cult groups….
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
I know, from personal experience, that when one is limerent, one’s feelings can get hurt really, really easily … especially by someone who doesn’t validate one’s infatuation or who doesn’t even seem to understand the strength/nature of one’s infatuation. 😉
Many years ago, I tried to share my excitement over infatuation with a platonic male friend, and there was no way on earth he was ever going to validate me. (He was a not an emotional person in general). He certainly didn’t understand where I was coming from. Eventually, I became so upset at this friend’s real/perceived lack of support that I stopped talking to him altogether. (I became really, really angry with him).
This fellow did nothing wrong. He wasn’t unkind. He didn’t dislike me or judge me, although I certainly felt judged. On an emotional level, I just couldn’t cope with the fact that I felt his attitude was saying “no” while all my brain wanted to hear was “yes, yes, yes”. My brain absolutely wanted to hold onto my infatuation, even if it meant losing genuine friends who harboured no ill will toward me.
So, in light of the emotionally delicate state limerents can sometimes find themselves in, I’d like to:
(1) Say that I hope you’re okay and continue to be okay. I’m sure everyone at LwL thinks well of you and wishes you well. You’re a very clever little bunny wabbit -that’s for sure. It was never my intention to hurt your feelings in any way. 🙂
(2) That your intellectual contributions to LwL have been wonderful, and something I’ve really enjoyed reading. Like I said, you’re one very clever little bunny wabbit. It’s nice to know that people out there still consume literature…
(3) That one should never feel ashamed of one’s passion or emotion or excitement, or anything else like that. It’s totally human to get excited and emotional about certain things. Desire is normal. And wanting to enjoy the natural high generated by desire is normal. In fact, everything you’re experiencing is normal; it’s just turned up to maximum volume right now. But while the “glorious music” for you is turned up to maximum volume, everybody else is wearing earmuffs or has decided to tune in to a different radio station!! 😆
When I was in my early 20s and I didn’t get the responses I wanted from friends and family regarding infatuation, I made the terrible mistake of assuming that people hated me, or judged me, or wished me ill, etc, etc. I assumed that people’s rejection of my LE was a rejection of me as an individual, when it wasn’t. LEs are something people experience, but they are not the sum total of who a person is. Please stay open to other people in your life, and remember than many people like/value you. Try not to personalise any unfavourable responses to your LE.
I know you might feel like crying when someone doesn’t give you a totally supportive/affirmative response when sharing something limerence-related, but please rest assured that you are an extremely valued member of LwL and limerence will make you a lot more sensitive (and cheeky!) than usual. (Don’t think I didn’t notice the fact you called me a “sissy”. Cheeky much?). 🙄😜
I want you to know that I hold your thoughts and writing in high esteem, and it really has been an extraordinary privilege to exchange ideas with you. Please rest assured the goodwill people in your life feel toward you is real. Please also realise that while you may possess “masculine energy”, all the hormonal upheaval of limerence will make you feel very emotional at times, and that’s okay. You can be a very emotional masculine personality for a while! 😁
I really wish you well, Phoenix from the Land of Snow, and am sending you kind thoughts/best wishes. You are definitely going through an unusual experience right now. All I can say is … please be very gentle with yourself, okay? 🙂
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy,
Looks like I’ll be booking a flight soon for Australia to have a huge pot of coffee/tea and cakes with you under the Moon shine… ☕️ 🍰 🫖 🥮 🌙
Are you ready to face 🧚♀️’s 🔥 🎆 ?
Snowpheonix says
@Mila,
Didn’t I tell you that you needed not to worry about or “mother” Sammy? It turned out that he has come to “mother” me now, so touching! 😭🤗 Should I call him “Mommy” instead of “Sammy”? Rhyming so nicely…
But he’s pulled me down to the earth from the sky, transforming a mighty firebird — Phoenix, to a Bunny Webbit! 😡 I think some dragon’s tail might need to be whipped or lit up with a match… 🔥
@Sammy mommy,
“especially by someone who doesn’t validate one’s infatuation or who doesn’t even seem to understand the strength/nature of one’s infatuation. ”
As I mentioned before, I never shared my infatuation, big or small, with anyone else; they seemed to be too privately precious to share. I never understood my persistent embarrassment for sharing, even both sides were available. This is the first time I dared to do so, because it was so anonymous in a ghost—land where everyone has the same condition and similar sufferings. 🥲
(1) Say that I hope you’re okay and continue to be okay. I’m sure everyone at LwL thinks well of you and wishes you well. You’re a very clever little bunny wabbit -that’s for sure. It was never my intention to hurt your feelings in any way. 🙂
Speaking for everyone else again?? Good gracious! Did my posts make me sound like a deeply wounded bunny wabbit quietly licking my front paws? That’s how much strengths you estimated from all my previous posts? I gave you much more faith and trust, Sissy Mommy! 😋 I’m a Phoenix always soaring in the sky unless burned completely… 🧚♀️
(2) “It’s nice to know that people out there still consume literature…”
Without a dose of literature daily, I don’t think I can survive! Thus helpless fantasizing and imagining me in all sorts of characters… Now, I’m re-reading “the Unbearable Lightness of Being”.
Dr L: I’m a lost case to be ever completely healed from limerence.
(3) “That one should never feel ashamed of one’s passion or emotion or excitement, or anything else like that. It’s totally human to get excited and emotional about certain things. “
My COO had made any crush or infatuation shameful — another reason I habitually did not share. In LwL, I’m learning how to express and share my emotions. 🖋️
“Desire is normal. And wanting to enjoy the natural high generated by desire is normal.”
Ah, a huge, hidden nature of life to be liberated from my system, you did not see how I blushed while posting some cheeky posts. Well, everything has to have a first time.
“But while the “glorious music” for you is turned up to maximum volume, everybody else is wearing earmuffs or has decided to tune in to a different radio station!! ”
Glorious? There is subtle despair in this infatuation, could you not detect it? I was trying to show how I would use a dose of Stoicism to reduce the degree of this despair. Whether it would work needs to be tested out. I’ll consider more for other limerents’ feelings.
“Please stay open to other people in your life, and remember than many people like/value you. Try not to personalise any unfavourable responses to your LE.”
You have no idea about my reality. People in my life do not know anything about my LE, but some colleagues suspect my uncover-able, unrequited limerence for LO, it must have been written on my face for 6 years — told you I have the worst poker face.
“I know you might feel like crying when someone doesn’t give you a totally supportive/affirmative response when sharing something limerence-related,”
Not really. Plus, I could not cry heartedly, because I was not allowed to cry when growing up.
“Please also realise that while you may possess “masculine energy”, all the hormonal upheaval of limerence will make you feel very emotional at times, and that’s okay. You can be a very emotional masculine personality for a while! ”
Gee, where all the “hormonal upheaval of limerence” talk come from? 😳 I’m still meditating everyday and can get wonderful peace or high… You’re over sensing me… ☺️
“I really wish you well, Phoenix from the Land of Snow, and am sending you kind thoughts/best wishes. You are definitely going through an unusual experience right now. All I can say is … please be very gentle with yourself, okay? ”
Oh, mine, mine! 🙃
@Marcia,
What’s going on with Sammy? Has he always been this much sensitive or sensible? 🫠
Marcia says
@Marcia,
“What’s going on with Sammy? Has he always been this much sensitive or sensible?”
I’ve been on this site for a few years and he is consistently kind. Never really known him not to be.
Kind, erudite and verbose!
Sammy Sams: I’m pulling your leg about being verbose! 🙂
Snowpheonix says
@Marcia,
Thank you for the new word “verbose”! 😂
You see what a reader reads is essentially themselves, not often what an author intends.
Sammy says
@Marcia and Coffeehouse.
“I’ve been on this site for a few years and he is consistently kind. Never really known him not to be.
Kind, erudite and verbose!
Sammy Sams: I’m pulling your leg about being verbose! 🙂”
Ah, Marcia. You are too, too kind. (That compliment sounds insincere. I borrowed it from an old black-and-white movie about Marie Antoinette. But I mean it sincerely in relation to you). 🙂
For the record, I am “verbose”. And I’m a bit “soft in the noggin” at times. And maybe I repeat myself in a vaguely annoying way. If the shoe fits, I wear it. Can’t see any point in denying reality. If something is true, and the hearer doesn’t find it insulting but a charming insight into oneself, then it is not an insult in my book. 😉
If I choose not to take offence at the things people say about me, the things people say about me cease to have any impact on my mood. These days, after spending my entire life a frightened mouse, I make the active choice NOT to take criticism (both valid and invalid) to heart. If I can’t make mistakes, then I can’t learn anything either. Excessive self-protection prevents me from learning the things I want to learn. 😉
At the same time, I would like to say it takes immense courage to put oneself out there on a public forum like this and constantly risk rejection/ridicule for every slightly-misjudged thing one says. I would like people to give me credit for being so willing to embarrass myself, so that other infinitely-more-vulnerable/confused souls don’t have to stand in the firing line and risk embarrassment. 😇
@Snowphoenix.
“What’s going on with Sammy? Has he always been this much sensitive or sensible?”
Nothing is going on with me – as far as I know. Should something be going on with me? Did I miss something? If you like, I’ll ask my team of twenty-seven therapists next time I see them, and pass any information along? Sadly, I can’t talk my therapists into letting me read their notes. I am just dying to get my hands on those notes. (War and Peace, Pt. 4, anyone?) 😆😉
In regard to your second question, Snow, I am delighted to inform you that yes, indeed, of course I have always been “this much sensitive” and “this much sensible”!! 🤣🤣🤣
According to my dictionary, “sensitive” and “sensible” are both compliments of the highest order!! So if there was an implied criticism in there somewhere, frankly, I’m not picking up on it. 😜
“This much sensitive” is the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me. Thank you for the exquisite compliment, my dear. You English is getting better. With any luck, it will continue to improve, and you’ll be able to direct even more lavish compliments my way. 😁😊
If someone doesn’t agree with some opinion I have, or thinks I’m strongly misguided about something, that’s cool. Why do people assume I’m Moses coming down from the mountaintop with the Ten Commandments in my hand? Is everybody on the site projecting their “daddy god” fantasies onto me or something? I’m … cough, cough … gay, remember? Society has never embraced me as a pillar of respectability. I’m not sure why I’m being cast as bewhiskered Mister Moses? Can’t I play traitorous Judas Iscariot or wicked Demon Prince Beelzebub or somebody actually interesting? 🙄😆
From my perspective, people are only too welcome to hold their own beliefs and form their own opinions. (Hopefully informed opinions.
But we are talking about the Internet, after all. How much truly reliable information can one really find on the Internet these days?)
I only write to figure things out in my own head. The only person I want to save is myself. I don’t feel as if any of the knowledge I acquire is definitive or set-in-stone. I’m always updating my knowledge when new information comes my way. If I’m wrong about something … cool beans … I’m wrong about something. Most human beings are wrong about most things most of the time. 😉
For example, if Allie thinks men and women are the same species, and I’m infantile enough to suggest they’re different species, well, that’s a totally honourable view to hold (on Allie’s part).
Allie is a married woman. She has many years of interacting at close range with a member of the opposite sex. And her views on this subject are infinitely more valid and valuable than mine because she has a wealth of first-hand experience. I don’t understand why people need to react in a bitter way if someone says something they don’t quite agree with? Why not share one’s own view in a kind and transparent manner? We’re all here to learn, right? Could it be that most limerents are terrified of genuine vulnerability? 🤔
Personally, I think all the females on LwL are great. And the males aren’t so terrible either. (Sorry, fellas. Don’t want to swell your heads or anything by pouring the praise on too thick). I feel the real experts in life on femaleness are females, and I feel the real experts in life on maleness are males. And if one isn’t an expert on one’s own sex, well, why so little interest in a subject that affects one directly, especially in terms of life expectancy and health outcomes? Maybe a little more (healthy) narcissism might be in order? 😆😆
On a more joyful note, my favourite poster on the site at the moment is Nisor, so I’ll like to take a minute to praise her contributions. In particular, I love her delicious (mis)interpretations of the English language.
For example, my new favourite word is “expeculating” – which Nisor used in another blog. The word is a malapropism, a combination of two English words “expecting” and “speculating”. Reading about how Nisor was “just expeculating” on the meaning of something from her past definitely brightened my day! Big hugs, Nisor!! 😊
P.S. I am happy to be “mothered” by any of the women who post on LwL. I really can’t see any problem with that. As Nisor said, we are a bit like family. Again, maybe I’m just a giant sweetie-pie with the pure mind of a saint, but I can’t find any insult/criticism there. 🙂
Honestly, guys, if that was the “Official Roast of Sammy”, you did a so-so job. I’m glad i didn’t bother showing up on the day. The guest list was dazzling but the actual comedy was … under-rehearsed. Don’t get me wrong – I enjoyed the show. But the whole performance needed more work. There were issues with timing. The lighting wasn’t great. Marcia did a fine job, though. All her jokes landed – I think the girl is a natural. Hats off to Marcia! 😉😎
(Marcia, I also loved your comment elsewhere about not being able to read my posts because you only had three hours ’til bedtime. That line cracked me up. Very few jokes have ever given me so much pleasure. Your sense of the ridiculous is just impeccable!) 🙂
Snowpheonix says
New chapter of “War & Peace 2”?
Marcia,
Sammy is unintentionally benevolent to help ease insomnia pain of some limerents here, which is certainly not your case, neither mine… I need 36 hours a day even just to keep up with my “Time Regained” journal…
Perhaps this “room” could be named, “Wrestle and Waltz of Limerents”?
Mila says
Snow,
It never came to my mind to „mother“ Sammy;)
Glad that you two are good.
Snowphoenix says
@Mila,
It’s subconscious, your natural caring and concern is feminine energy and motherly love, which I lack. I’m self-spoiled with stubborn pride… but sensitive to others energy and strength in some departments… ☺️
I hope you are feeling better….🙏
MJ says
“Many years ago, I tried to share my excitement over infatuation with a platonic male friend, and there was no way on earth he was ever going to validate me. (He was a not an emotional person in general). He certainly didn’t understand where I was coming from. Eventually, I became so upset at this friend’s real/perceived lack of support that I stopped talking to him altogether. (I became really, really angry with him).”
I’ve been in this exact situation Sammy. I have an older gentleman friend that I decided to disclose the LE to and I suppose I expected better support from this person. Turns out the opposite happened and he basically said I should be able to shut the whole thing down. As if dissolving the LE is as easy as shutting off a lightswitch.
Internally, I became so incensed over his response, I quit talking to him for months. We have since become reacquainted and have discussed it somewhat minimally, but he still does not understand the thought processes of how I got into it. I think this is just common for those who have never found themselves in the throes of something as perplexing as limerence.
frederico says
Brilliant observation, MJ. Friends who don’t understand, well they….just don’t understand.
Happy that you have become reacquainted to a certain degree though.
Your post was a welcome distraction from my pointless rumination about what I should say to LO, at some stage. Of course, I should say nothing at all. Futile rumination!
Hope you’re ok.
f
MJ says
Agree. Do not think you should disclose either. Let the chips fall where they may. You will get through this.
Snowpheonix says
Any words to be added in a chapter of “War and Peace -2” takes focused body, mind, and soul. Virginia Woolf is soooooo right that women need “a Room of One’s Own” to create. Running like a city rat for survival, one could hardly think and feel, let alone imagine….
@ Sammash,
“For the record, I am “verbose”. And I’m a bit “soft in the noggin” at times. And maybe I repeat myself in a vaguely annoying way. If the shoe fits, I wear it. Can’t see any point in denying reality.”
Do you talk in person in this fashion: “A is…. I say A is…. because B is…. The reason I say B is… is because C does….”? You’re the first person I’ve ever met who writes in this fashion, like telling “a long time ago… “ tales to fascinated, mesmerized children with their eyes open big… 🤗
However, if such a “chanting” style is used to give advices or persuasions to those who had some forms of cptsd, their wounds could be triggered off. 🥶
“If I choose not to take offence at the things people say about me, the things people say about me cease to have any impact on my mood. “
Precisely! You have become a true Stoic now (does it have any conflicts with Christianity?)! I want to get to that point and talked big about Stoicism; however, in reality it’s superbly hard to have my mind totally free of others’ (mainly colleagues) POSSIBLE thoughts about me… which don’t have much impact, since our works are all quite independent, autonomous, respectively. But my cptsd was often in the way.
“If I can’t make mistakes, then I can’t learn anything either. Excessive self-protection prevents me from learning the things I want to learn. “
The same is true with anyone else. The ONLY effective way to truly learn in life is through mistakes and failures, PERIOD! Without the painful LE, I could not become what and who I am today, I even grown 30 centimeters “taller” by just rambling in LwL! — I don’t have to carry a Mary Popping’s magic stool in my purse in case I want to “attack” LO with a sudden kiss on his forehead — feeling like a mother for a wronged, “tearing” kid nowadays….
“At the same time, I would like to say it takes immense courage to put oneself out there on a public forum like this and constantly risk rejection/ridicule for every slightly-misjudged thing one says. “
Absoooooolutely true, Sammash! If this site is not anonymous, I would not even open my mouth. This is only site in the entire internet that I participate, loud or whispering, and still holds back a lot. I cannot be totally psychologically naked.
“I would like people to give me credit for being so willing to embarrass myself, so that other infinitely-more-vulnerable/confused souls don’t have to stand in the firing line and risk embarrassment. “
You’ve got A+ in this matter! I was soooooo amazed when I first came and read some of your old posts, “this person (first thought you were a woman), was painfully, nakedly weeping here. He must have got really bad hurt and desperately needed lay open his whole wounded mind and soul here to let others know…”. (There are still a lot of old blogs that I haven’t got time to enter)
“Nothing is going on with me – as far as I know. Should something be going on with me? Did I miss something?”
In order to “perform” now, I had to re-read several dialogues back in September and October to see what we were debating and where we had ended/paused. Hmmm, I could hardly remember my poster posted three days ago, let alone following up an old one from three months ago. No wonder it’s said that Aspies have an elephant’s memory.
“If you like, I’ll ask my team of twenty-seven therapists next time I see them, and pass any information along? Sadly, I can’t talk my therapists into letting me read their notes. I am just dying to get my hands on those notes. (War and Peace, Pt. 4, anyone?) “
Oh boy, 27 therapists? No, I do not need their notes, I have got my own notes in my mind by pulling your legs here in waking hours and night dreams…. Forget about what anyone else, therapists included, thinks of you! You know best who you ARE at any given minute, just show that evolving Sammash!
“In regard to your second question, Snow, I am delighted to inform you that yes, indeed, of course I have always been “this much sensitive” and “this much sensible”!! “
My hat off to you! Congratulations to me — “that’s very sensible” rarely slip out of my lips particularly for an Aspie, aren’t they supposed to live in their own head, their individually fascinated world? Isn’t “highly sensitive” associated with HSP? But I’m not sure whether you have labeled yourself with that abbreviation — HSP.
“According to my dictionary, “sensitive” and “sensible” are both compliments of the highest order!! So if there was an implied criticism in there somewhere, frankly, I’m not picking up on it. “
To me, “sensitive” and “sensible” are compliments (can’t deal with those non-limerent folks); the more the latter, the better.
“This much sensitive” is the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me. Thank you for the exquisite compliment, my dear. “
Why is it “the nicest thing” to you? “Highly sensitive” might also be related insecure people, not to Aspies in my experiences. I did not imply any criticism, just truly got surprised. 😳 Do some other people think you’re not sensitive enough?
“Your English is getting better. With any luck, it will continue to improve, and you’ll be able to direct even more lavish compliments my way. “
❓Do you always mean what you say, as a typical Aspie? or somewhat mocking me here (over sensitive, I could read three possible things from any given sentence)? or very assured of yourself ❓ A true Stoic also does not care much about others’ compliments, but my lavish compliment would certainly arrive in time as my English improves. A current one is “Sammash” given by my Unconscious, more powerful than the conscious mind.
“If someone doesn’t agree with some opinion I have, or thinks I’m strongly misguided about something, that’s cool. “
You’re going beyond a Stoic now! When “someone doesn’t agree with some opinion I have”, I know it’s an opportunity for me to debate thus to learn something vague or some untrodden territories about myself. I could hardly contain myself from a new around verbal “sword” like a Joan of Arc.
“Why do people assume I’m Moses coming down from the mountaintop with the Ten Commandments in my hand? Is everybody on the site projecting their “daddy god” fantasies onto me or something?”
As a non-religious firebird, without carrying Moses or Buddha in my head most of the time, I certainly did not assume you of any godly figure. You waved a big stick of morality in front of my face and started a holy crusade back in October, sounding like a “thought police”, or an “Old” (your own word) grumpy grandpa, so you crowned yourself a “Moses” or “daddy god”.
“I’m … cough, cough … gay, remember? Society has never embraced me as a pillar of respectability. “
Does “gay”, “straight”, or “bisexual” have any weight in this ghost land? I can’t see, smell, hear, taste, or touch any ghost, then how is gender relevant here? Only words flying around, only mind and soul are weeping or sparkling… does one’s mind and soul have gender identity? Which thoughts of mine or yours, or anyone else’s is straight or gay?
“I’m not sure why I’m being cast as bewhiskered Mister Moses? Can’t I play traitorous Judas Iscariot or wicked Demon Prince Beelzebub or somebody actually interesting? “
Mister Moses is the last person I care to see before my last breath on the earth! I’d love to see your version of Judas Isacariot, Prince Beelzabub, or Pan…. Just verbally act them out and I might partner with you in crime! Gosh, naughtiness is so attractive! 😝
“From my perspective, people are only too welcome to hold their own beliefs and form their own opinions.”
Some people are. However, my curiosity and adventurous streaks could make me adopt eccentric ideas or different colored lens of viewing the world. In the past, my cptsd had held me back a great deal; and its old wounds needed to be healed first. Nowadays three months after our last debates, I’ve come out of my aged cocoon and attempt fly around with a “grown” head.
(Hopefully informed opinions. But we are talking about the Internet, after all. How much truly reliable information can one really find on the Internet these days?)
Information means little if one does not disgust them in their own life/system. I only scan titles of the news, occasionally skim some opinion articles, book and film reviews, which would spin my head.
“I only write to figure things out in my own head. The only person I want to save is myself. “
Just like Mila, Lost in Space, myself, and some others here — save ourselves. Actually, only one person anyone could possibly, truly SAVE is One Self.
“I don’t feel as if any of the knowledge I acquire is definitive or set-in-stone. I’m always updating my knowledge when new information comes my way.”
I consider substantial knowledge comes from information digested in one’s experiences, through which one changes or evolves; therefore, knowledge is, and needs to be constantly updated or evolved.
“If I’m wrong about something … cool beans … I’m wrong about something. “
I still think, aside from hardcore sciences, there is no absolute “right” or “wrong”, it’s just 5 or 50 blind men touching and trying to figure out what an elephant is. I think my point on this would allow us to cultivate more sympathy and empathy for those “suffering” souls, whether out of their choices or not.
“Most human beings are wrong about most things most of the time. “
One can’t say “right” or “wrong”, unless there is a commonly accepted set of measuring sticks. Therefore, your statement is true — most human things are “wrong” about most of things most of the time.”
“I don’t understand why people need to react in a bitter way if someone says something they don’t quite agree with? Why not share one’s own view in a kind and transparent manner? “
I am not sure what or whom you’re referring here? Since your passages are addressed to me, could I assume that you’re talking about some of my previous posters in October? Are they unkind, non-transparent, or “bitter”?? Please feel free and relaxed if you want to address my puzzlements here.
“We’re all here to learn, right? Could it be that most limerents are terrified of genuine vulnerability? “
Like you and many others, I’m here to learn about the world of limerence and myself. Whether limerents or not, people are often terrified of genuine vulnerabilities, particularly those with cptsd, who might perceive far more dangers in external world than limerents.
“I feel the real experts in life on femaleness are females, and I feel the real experts in life on maleness are males. “
I think you’re going on the arena of generalizing again. There are only biological similarities (not exact same) among females and males, respectively. In terms of personality or emotions, there is no expert on “females” or “males. Individuals are vastly different; one would be lucky if she or he is an expert on herself or himself, respectively. We are still learning about our own individualistic limerence, aren’t we?
“And if one isn’t an expert on one’s own sex, well, why so little interest in a subject that affects one directly, especially in terms of life expectancy and health outcomes? Maybe a little more (healthy) narcissism might be in order? “
What is the “life expectancy and health outcomes” all about, in terms of relating to limerence? Healthy narcissism is always needed for one to survive and thrive; our executive brain is a part of Ego (different from small “e” ego — vanity, insecurity stuff). Sometimes, my boasting or peacock showing off here is a part of my healthy narcissism, pumping more energy and self-confidence in me.
“…my new favourite word is “expeculating” – which Nisor used in another blog. The word is a malapropism, a combination of two English words “expecting” and “speculating”. Reading about how Nisor was “just expeculating” on the meaning of something from her past definitely brightened my day! Big hugs, Nisor!!
The best combination in English I’ve ever heard, seriously! 😂😂
“I am happy to be “mothered” by any of the women who post on LwL. I really can’t see any problem with that.”
If someone comes to me sounding like a “mother”, “father”, “god”, “priest”, you can be assured that I’d do opposite of whatever they preach, I am really bad with subtle condescending tone or taking advices, unless they somehow plant those ideas into my head, making them look like my own….
Of course, I had no problem to project a parent figure onto LO, but it had to be ME projecting. Nowadays, I’ve become my own parent, even feeling I’m “mothering” my LO, who was given and unwillingly played a surrogate parent’s role for some many years.
“As Nisor said, we are a bit like family. Again, maybe I’m just a giant sweetie-pie with the pure mind of a saint”
Yes, I feel more and more here is like a diverse family, with so many diverse voices. It takes time to live in peace with opposite voices. Once an emotional rapport is gradually built, then everything else in a “family” becomes easier to deal with.
You’re a “giant sweetie-pie” like that Todd in movie, “Victor and Victoria”! 🫂But Sammash, I’m not sure how I could comfortably deal with “a saint”, with so many devilish spots on me… 🫣 If you tolerate me endlessly, you’d automatically assign you a “godly” role. Could you descend to my humanistic level? 🤔
“Honestly, guys, if that was the “Official Roast of Sammy”, you did a so-so job.”
Who tried to “roast” you? 😳 back in Oct. 15/26th? Weren’t we debating on two of my ideations: disclosure to LO and responsibility for someone else’s SO? You see others’ affection and support for you as “Roasting Sammy”? Is this a part of your “high sensitivity”?
“I’m glad i didn’t bother showing up on the day. The guest list was dazzling but the actual comedy was … under-rehearsed. Don’t get me wrong – I enjoyed the show. But the whole performance needed more work. There were issues with timing. The lighting wasn’t great..“
Yes, you disappeared for over a month after that “comedy show” (what’s comical about it?). How would you rehearse the “show”, with better performance, timing, and lighting?
And now, you are heading back to that stage, intending to wrap up the “show” to deliver the closing remarks? ❓😵💫
To be more honest with you: two ideations — disclosure to LO and indifference to others’ SO, have never left my department; the former could still take place before the “death” arrives…. My LE is naturally running out its own course, despite I wish and even make an effort to keep it — no more highs or lows seeing or not seeing very friendly LO, only unspeakable or inexpressable sadness lingers…. 🥺
Now, soar your magnificent Dragon’s tail on the stage, Sammash! 🐉🐲
Snowpheonix says
A limerick 😅
*****
Sammash
In the Pacific West,
living an androgynous dragon
named “Sammash”
He hides under human black hair
in a black leather jacket
invisible, inaudible
scentless, untouchable
only his phantom is spotted at LwL….
In one minute, he shakes hands
with Mister Moses
in another second, he toasts
to nymphs and Pan
in dancing verses
in verbose chants
He stirs waves of the Pacific
calls thunders to the Atlantic
highly sensitive, sensible, and filial
he soothes limerent mothers’ sore chests
massages liemerent father’s’ aching limbs….
In limerence high
he gazed into teens’ eyes
clung to Authorian knight’s steps
In limerence low
doctors stretched his twisted torso
27 shrinks mapped his colorful scales
Ghosts watched his weeps, dips and beeps
in LwL’s illuminating sky….
Tossing his sporadic fire dim and bright
he bumped into an Eastern Phoenix
named “Snow”
who then boldly flips, spins
and lights a match to his tail
Holding a Stoic torch in one hand
and a Dionysian cup in another
she swells big and small
tumbling in the maze of limerence
digging cues, clues, and cures
they butt heads over human morals
he adds “a” or “the” to her ESL….
When the Dragon Eve’s bell strikes
ting, ting, ting, ting….
all dragons of the East and West
will shake the sparkling heads
swoosh the green tails
begin to soar through the heaven
and leap over the earth….
2/9/2024 (23:23)
the Dragon’s Eve
********
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fd3rf6j5nx5r04a.cloudfront.net%2FqR2-iVCUefgo70DOknuzG-QuGWE%3D%2F560x0%2Fproduct%2Fa%2F7%2F69c391c12d2d45e9ae88961722730276_opt.jpg&tbnid=ErI_qwaRtumcYM&vet=1&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.artfinder.com%2Fproduct%2Fdragon-and-phoenix%2F&docid=ozLicvuEJz-c-M&w=560&h=996&itg=1&hl=en-US&source=sh%2Fx%2Fim%2Fm4%2F7&shem=tric&kgs=62dea72473df17b7
Snowpheonix says
Sammash
In the Pacific West,
living an androgynous dragon
named “Sammash”
He hides under human black hair
in a black leather jacket
invisible, inaudible
scentless, untouchable
only his phantom is spotted at LwL….
In one minute, he shakes hands
with Mister Moses
in another second, he toasts
to nymphs and Pan
in dancing verses
in verbose chants
He stirs waves of the Pacific
calls thunders to the Atlantic
highly sensitive, sensible, and filial
he soothes limerent mothers’ sore chests
massages limerent fathers’ aching limbs….
In limerence high
he gazed into teens’ eyes
clung to Authorian knight’s steps
In limerence low
doctors stretched his twisted torso
27 shrinks mapped his colorful scales
Ghosts watched his weeps, dips and beeps
in LwL’s illuminating sky….
Tossing his sporadic fire dim and bright
he bumped into an Eastern Phoenix
named “Snow”
who then boldly flips, spins
and lights a match to his tail
Holding a Stoic torch in one hand
and a Dionysian cup in another
Snow swells big and small
tumbling in the maze of limerence
digging cues, clues, and cures
They butt heads over human morals
Sammash adds “a”, “the” or “s” to her ESL….
When the Dragon Eve’s bell strikes
ting, ting, ting, ting….
all dragons of the East and West
will shake the sparkling heads
swoosh the green tails
begin to soar through the heaven
and leap over the earth….
2/9/2024 (23:38)
the Dragon’s Eve
Snowpheonix says
Sammash
In the Pacific West,
living an androgynous dragon
named “Sammash”
He hides under human black hair
in a black leather jacket
invisible, inaudible
scentless, untouchable
only his phantom is spotted at LwL….
In one minute, he shakes hands
with Mister Moses
in another second, he toasts
to nymphs and Pan
in dancing verses
in verbose chants
He stirs waves of the Pacific
calls thunders to the Atlantic
highly sensitive, sensible
filial, and mighty erudite
he soothes limerent mothers’ pounding chests
massages limerent fathers’ aching limbs….
In limerence high
he gazed into teens’ eyes
clung to Authorian knight’s steps
In limerence low
doctors stretched his twisted torso
27 shrinks mapped his colorful scales
Ghosts watched his weeps, dips and beeps
in LwL’s illuminating sky….
Tossing his sporadic fire dim and bright
he bumped into an Eastern Phoenix
named “Snow”
who then boldly flips, spins
and lights a match to his tail
Holding a Stoic torch in one hand
and a Dionysian cup in another
Snow swells big and small
tumbling in the maze of limerence
digging cues, clues, and cures
They butt heads over human morals
Sammash adds “a”, “the” or “s” to her ESL….
When the Dragon Eve’s bell strikes
ting, ting, ting, ting….
all dragons of the East and West
will shake the sparkling heads
swoosh the green tails
begin to soar through the heaven
and leap over the earth….
2/10/2024 (8:20)
the Dragon’s Day
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy Bro,
Could I cheekily ask you to edit my limerick — a small piece of dreamy work? 🌙 😉 Just treat Sammash as a character out of my imagination? 💭 🤔
****
Sammash
In the Pacific West,
living an androgynous dragon
named “Sammash”
He hides under human black hair
in a black leather jacket
invisible, inaudible
scentless, untouchable
only his phantom is spotted at LwL….
In one minute, he shakes hands
with Mister Moses
in another second, he toasts
to nymphs and Pan
in dancing verses
in verbose chants
He stirs waves of the Pacific
calls thunders to the Atlantic
highly sensitive, sensible
filial, and mighty erudite
he soothes limerent mothers’ pounding chests
massages limerent fathers’ aching limbs….
In limerence high
he gazed into teens’ eyes
clung to Arthurian knights’ footsteps
In limerence low
doctors stretched his twisted torso
twenty-seven shrinks mapped his colorful scales
Ghosts watched his weeps, dips and beeps
in LwL’s illuminating skies….
Tossing his sporadic fire dim and bright
he bumped into an Eastern Phoenix
named “Snow”
who boldly flips, spins
and lights a match to his tail
Holding a Stoic torch in one hand
and a Dionysian cup in another
Snow swells big and small
tumbling and trembling in the maze of limerence
digging cues, clues, and cures
Sammash and Snow butt heads over human morals
He edits “a”, “the” or “s” in her ESL….
When the Dragon’s first midnight’s bell strikes —
ting, ting, ting, ting….
all dragons of the East and West
will shake their sparkling heads
swoosh the green tails
begin to soar through the heaven
and leap over the earth….
2/10/2024 (8:36)
The Dragon’s Day
Adam says
Limerence came because I didnt feel I was getting the validation at home that she gave me. Ego is selfish. “Momma do you still love me?” NOT “Morgan will you pay attention to me?” “Momma I got you a Caramello.” NOT Morgan I got you your favorite coffee drink.”
Doing something for someone should idealistically be altruistic. Certainly we get a satisfaction out of helping someone. But deep down it should be for their benefit, not our ego. Limerence has a way of distorting that. To where the simplest act can be more for yourself than her. Where chasing a “you’re sweet Adam” from her is just as selfish as that first gin & juice at 5. Instead of “Momma do you need anything before I come home?”
Its like Bruce Wayne carrying Jason Todd’s dead body away. The damage was already done. Bruce made the choice he did. And it wasn’t altruistic. And in real life we don’t get a chance at terrible retcons like he did. There’s no resets in life.
Limerent Emeritus says
Adam,
In the Navy, we had ECF, Error Carried Forward. Once you know you’ve made a mistake, you may not be able to correct it. You stop doing things to make it worse.
Often easier said than done, but it’s often the best you can do.
Bridgelover says
Silly question: If I don’t text LO for a week because I’m successfully fighting the intense urge to text him every minute…and if I don’t text LO for a week because I didn’t think about him at all…he can’t tell the difference, right??
Limerent Emeritus says
Probably not.
I don’t remember your particulars but if you’re around him a lot as in a work environment, you may be leaking other clues. If he’s not all that interested, he may or may not even notice. If he’s a sociopathic narc, he’s plotting exactly how to string you along for the most effect.
See? Look at the rumination mileage you’re getting by even asking that question.
You can work yourself into a positive frenzy on that one if you try hard enough.
Limerence FTW!